Does anyone know of a unit that can handle surge protection, line conditioning/filtering, AND act as a batery backup? When I read tripp Lite models, it does seem they can do just that but I am skeptical.

Whacha think Doug? Many of us love our new HT systems but we're so poor afterwards that we can barely afford cabling, let alone all these protecting units!!

I'm also curious. I'm considering the Tripp Lite LCR-2400 for my surge/conditioning but would I be better off with a Brickwall unit?

Bill

A great thread and it has given me several ideas for surge protection that I intend to pursue.

On the issue of UPS and true sine wave output, in my case, I want to protect the bulb and electronics for my Samsung DLP only in the event of a power outage or brownout.

My understanding is that there are two different types of UPS, Standby and online (or always on). The standy version is supposed to use wall AC until there is an interruption, at which point the battery back up kicks in (after a short delay). It seems to me that to protect the DLP (i.e keep the fan going long enough to shut it down), the only thing needed would be a small standby UPS plugged into one of the surge protector solutions presented in this thread.

I'll admit I didn't get through every post (started at the beginning and the end and worked my way to the middle, so if I missed this issue, just let me know.

Thanks for all the insights. Sure am glad I didn't start this thread ;-)

Is a UPS the same thing as a line conditioner?

If not, what is the difference?

Denis54,

My understanding is that a line conditioner stabilizes the voltage at 120V and "cleans up" the line of any noise/interference.

A UPS (Uninteruptible Power System) provides you an alotted amount of battery backup time. Should the power go out while watching a movie for instance, a UPS will give you time to power everything down safely.

Line conditioning is sometimes included in certain UPS systems but not all.

I could be wrong on all of this so someone correct me if that is so.

Bill

Line conditioning does not necessarily stabilize voltage,

UPS also provide voltage during voltage drops as well as voltage outages.

Originally posted by Juggy
Does anyone know of a unit that can handle surge protection, line conditioning/filtering, AND act as a batery backup? When I read tripp Lite models, it does seem they can do just that but I am skeptical.


I have looked at these types of units but have found that they try to do everything but are unsatisfactory when it comes to one or more function. In most instances that function is surge suppression, in that these models have MOV-based protection and not the superior series-mode protection.

For my Samsung DLP, I have a APC Smart-UPS plugged into a Brickwall. The Smart UPS provides some line-conditioning capability as well as automatic voltage regulation (AVR) for brownouts and over-voltages. This is a standby unit (I think most all UPS units we would consider are standby, the online units are usually thousands of dollars). The Smart-UPS is a true-sine wave output, which may not be necessary in my circumstances, but then again, it sure won't hurt either. For larger UPSs, (>1000VA) the Smart UPS refurbs at www.refurbups.com are comparable in price to brand new non-true-sine wave units. Considering that the refurbs all come with new batteries, that makes them almost good-as-new and thus the choice for me was pretty easy.

jdiff,
For my Samsung DLP, I have a APC Smart-UPS plugged into a Brickwall. The Smart UPS provides some line-conditioning capability as well as automatic voltage regulation (AVR) for brownouts and over-voltages. This is a standby unit (I think most all UPS units we would consider are standby, the online units are usually thousands of dollars). The Smart-UPS is a true-sine wave output, which may not be necessary in my circumstances, but then again, it sure won't hurt either.

I want this type of setup for my 5063 as well. Why is the Brickwall (what model do you have BTW?) better than a Monster Surge Protector (MPHTS1000MKII) for example?
Which UPS do you have also?

Thanks!

Originally posted by VA Ringer
jdiff,


I want this type of setup for my 5063 as well. Why is the Brickwall (what model do you have BTW?) better than a Monster Surge Protector (MPHTS1000MKII) for example?
Which UPS do you have also?

Thanks!

A Monster is still MOV based, which is why it will never be up to par with something like a Brickwall.

VA Ringer,
I have the cheapest Brickwall unit, the PW2R15 (~$150) and the APC Smart-UPS 1400 (~$200). NVboy is right - even the cheapest Brickwall unit has pritection superior to Monster's most expensive (but still MOV-based) unit.

jdiff/NVboy,

Thanks for the input! I am off to search for a Brickwall and UPS.

APC has some new products on the way. This is from their press release:


American Power Conversion Announces a New Family of Power Conditioning Battery Backup Units Designed Exclusively for High Performance Audio/Video Systems
WEST KINGSTON, R.I. – September 9, 2004 - American Power Conversion (Nasdaq: APCC) (APC) today announced an innovative new line of power conditioning battery backup units designed exclusively for the high performance home audio/video (A/V) and custom electronic installer market. The new APC A/V M10 and M15 Power Conditioner with Battery Backup help eliminate power anomalies as a threat to component hardware, A/V signal integrity, and system availability. Unstable power can destroy component power supplies, negatively impact sound and video quality as well as result in lost pre-sets, damaged hard drives, and missed digital video recordings (DVRs). APC’s new M10 and M15 are the only single A/V power protection units able to defend a system against all these threats

Here's the link to the APC sight about M Type Power Conditioners with Battery. It comes in 1000va and 1500va.

http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=310

Looks pretty cool...

Couldn't find any price info.

And I wish they had a 20 amp model, though I'm not sure I need that much capacity. It's also MOV, I presume, so I'll still have to plug it into my brickwall.

Wow those do look really nice, they are definitely MOV-based (there is a joule rating in the specs), but with all the filtering they are a step up from a Smart-UPS. Considering a brand new Smart-UPS 1000 VA goes for more than $400, these units will probably be in the neighborhood of $500+, competing with the high-end Monster products. When you can get a refurb Smart-UPS for under $150, I'm not sure if they are worth the premium.

I think I may have misunderstood the ratings...Does the va rating refer to the amount of current the unit can handle, or the battery capacity/run time?

Thanks if anyone can help...:)

I'm not an engineer, but I am pretty sure these are all 15 amp units. VA refers the load the unit can handle, in the case of 1000 VA, the max load is 685 watts. The specs indicate at 685 watts, battery runtime is 10.9 minutes. Maybe an engineer can clarify...

Greetings,
Does anyone have any experience with the Panamax 5100?
b.

What do people think about this new line from Furman (http://www.furmansound.com/consumer/Elite/index.htm) ?

I followed this thread previously and had been looking at getting one of the Adcom units but just never pulled the trigger. I'm now real close to pre-ordering the Elite-15PF. Anyone want to convince me otherwise? I am intrigued by the "power factor" technology, as I haven't seen anything like that described in similar products from other companies. My search on the forum seems to indicate that this company has a good reputation but there doesn't seem to be any talk about these new "home theater" lines (see also the reference and power station models at the link above). So far I've been impressed by their responsiveness via email.

Originally posted by Brett Miles
What do people think about this new line from Furman (http://www.furmansound.com/consumer/Elite/index.htm) ?

I followed this thread previously and had been looking at getting one of the Adcom units but just never pulled the trigger. I'm now real close to pre-ordering the Elite-15PF. Anyone want to convince me otherwise? I am intrigued by the "power factor" technology, as I haven't seen anything like that described in similar products from other companies. My search on the forum seems to indicate that this company has a good reputation but there doesn't seem to be any talk about these new "home theater" lines (see also the reference and power station models at the link above). So far I've been impressed by their responsiveness via email.

I think the Furman is pretty ugly. What's the MSRP on those? I'll stick to the Adcom.

I have a question as to how a UPS system can help save a Tivo unit. If you are not around to power off the Tivo unit and the battery backup runs out of power then the Tivo will shut off. If you have a power outage the unit will shut off. What is the difference in the way that a Tivo shuts off that will protect a hard drive and allow it to backup data etc. Will the UPS unit such as the Smart-PS 1000 send a command to the Tivo telling it to shut down in a controlled manner versus an abupt shutdown from a power outage. I'm not a PC guru or an engineer so I'm confused about what would be the difference in the way that Tivo would shut down.

Looks good to me with the Series Mode surge protection built in. How it compares to other similar units, I cannot comment.
Lacks battery backup capabilities though, so although it would be great for audio, DLP or other projection televisions would still need a UPS.

Originally posted by plasmamaniac
I have a question as to how a UPS system can help save a Tivo unit. If you are not around to power off the Tivo unit and the battery backup runs out of power then the Tivo will shut off. If you have a power outage the unit will shut off. What is the difference in the way that a Tivo shuts off that will protect a hard drive and allow it to backup data etc.

A small difference....but still significant enough in my opinion.

First, the idea of the UPS is to hopefully have enough so that it'll stay up through a power outage to protect the Tivo from losing power at the wrong moment.

But, even if the UPS is powerful enough to last the outage...it is still better than no UPS.

Because in the event of a power outage due to line fault...there's basically a big circuit breaker that trips..and the first it tries to do is automatiically reset itself a few times before it decides that whatever is causing the line fault is serious enough to require human intervention. During this auto-reset attempt the power will be going on and off wildly with all kinds of nasty surges, etc.

If you have no UPS...then your Tivo will see all these short outages, and surges, etc.

In fact I just survived such a power outage a couple weeks ago....

The Dreamer.

Thank you very much for your input. I was thinking that in the case of a PC if you were there during the outage you could logoff and shutdown your PC. However with Tivo you would just have to unplug the unit and would doing that affect what was recording as far as harming the disc drive or would it power down differently than if it had an immediate loss of power from a power outage. I agree that if you had 10 minutes of backup power then that would be long enough for most power outages in my area which normally last 5 minutes or shortet. Then my STBs and Tivo have to boot back up but with a APC UPS system you would not notice a problem until you had an outage of 10 minutes or more.

Originally posted by NVboy
I think the Furman is pretty ugly. What's the MSRP on those? I'll stick to the Adcom.

I don't find them any more or less ugly than the Adcom. They're both your basic black box. The certainly look better than the Furman pro line, though. I think the Reference line is pretty good in the looks dept., but the price is way out of my range. MSRP for the Elite-15PF is $499. That's basically the same price as the Adcom 615, but the Furman has more outlets, a 3yr vs. 1yr warranty, and some other nice features lacking in the Adcom.

Fellow AVS Forum Members,
Please provide inputs/experiences on the products below. I am lookin for surge protection, filtering, and isolation for power, coax (3 inputs), and phone lines (1) and battery backup for the following equipment: Samsung 5063, Samsung TS360, Hughes DVR, Panny DVD, A/V Recr down the road plus whatever else I need for a sound system.

Surge
Tripplite - HT10DBS
Panamax - M8HC-PRO
Brickwall - PW2R15

Battery (mainly for 5063)
APC - Back -UPS ES 725 Broadband

Are these good products and what combination is preferred? Are there other products I should look at? I am looking to watch the budget as I still need to purchase audio equipment. $300-$400 is my range for both unit combined.

Thanks!!!

What's the difference between APC's Smart-UPS and the Back-UPS?

VA Ringer,
I have a Brickwall PW2R15 and have had no problems with it, but then again, I haven't had any surges that I know of. It is a series-mode protection device which is widely regarded to be superior to MOV-based protection devices. As far as I know, all Tripplite devices are MOV-based, and I believe the Panamax is also MOV-based but I am not sure.

APC Smart-UPS series provides pure sine wave output while the Back-UPS series provides stepped wave output. For a piece of equipment such as a computer with a switching power supply, the stepped wave output is fine, but equipment without a switching power supply is usually more sensitive to the waveform, and so a pure sine wave output is desired.

You should be able to get a good deal on a refurb UPS at www.refurbups.com. You could probably get a refurb Smart-UPS for about what you'd pay for a brand new Back-UPS 725.

As for coax protection, many people prefer to use a separate coax protection device rather than something built into another unit, mostly because the choices of protection devices are limited if one requires coax protection built in. The Surgender is a frequently-mentioned device, including eariler in this thread, and is available here:
dlsus.chainreactionweb.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118.

I am not sure what to say about a phone line protection device, as I do not have one (a phone line, that is).

The APC devices do not render pure sine wave but clipped sine waves which are squared according to even their own tech who has seen the oscilloscope stated that they are clipped. That's why I am buying a PSAUDIO P500 that will take the APC SMART-UPS XL 1000 VA/800Watt output and then regenerate the clipped sine waves into pure sine waves that will then feed into my home theater system except the plasma which will feed off of a separate line coming into my PSAUDIO Power Director 4.7 unit which doesn't regenerate sine waves but offers 3 different types of surge protection plus 40 dbs of line conditioning plus a meter for watt usage, amp usage and volt usage.

AFAIK, the only manufacturers of SM Surge Protectors are ZeroSurge, (they patented the technology), Adcom, Brickwall, Furman, and Surgex.

Originally posted by plasmamaniac
The APC devices do not render pure sine wave but clipped sine waves which are squared according to even their own tech who has seen the oscilloscope stated that they are clipped. That's why I am buying a PSAUDIO P500 that will take the APC SMART-UPS XL 1000 VA/800Watt output and then regenerate the clipped sine waves into pure sine waves that will then feed into my home theater system except the plasma which will feed off of a separate line coming into my PSAUDIO Power Director 4.7 unit which doesn't regenerate sine waves but offers 3 different types of surge protection plus 40 dbs of line conditioning plus a meter for watt usage, amp usage and volt usage.

The PSAUDIO Power Director 4.7 looks like a very sweet unit. Even though it's MOV based, it still seems to offer quite a bit (it should for the price). I love the cautionary text on the back:

CAUTION: LETHAL VOLTAGES INSIDE

Originally posted by plasmamaniac
The APC devices do not render pure sine wave but clipped sine waves which are squared....

Given a power outage and a shift to the UPS as a voltage source, do you not intend to immediately turn off your TV? Given that this is the case, a squarewave would seem to be just fine for the minute or so while your set is shutting down. :rolleyes:

If you run a UPS off a balanced power type conditioner, in order to provide battery bachup for your TIVO and DLP bulb, will you still be getting balanced power through the UPS?

I am assuming a sine wave type UPS.

I have to run the UPS in front of the PSAUDIO power plant because one of the major benefits from the P500 power plant is to provide pure unclipped sine waves in a stable and balanced output without surges, line noise because it converts it to DC, filters it and then converts it back to perfect sine wave AC. I have to provide about 1.5 times as much wattage going into the power plant so I will need about 800 watts coming out of the APC Smart-UPS XL backup unit. If your surround processor converts the AC to DC and does its own filtering then it is not as necessary to have perfect sine wave coming in but I am not an electrical engineer so I don't know exactly all of the technical details. I just know the cleaner and purer the power the better without surges and spikes and line noise.

OK, a surge surpressor and a maybe a UPS is nice to have, but I don't see how power filtering has any benefical effects to your TV, especially for digital TV. Your TV doesn't care if there is a minimal level of noise on the AC input. You will not see better picture and audio quality if you add an additional filter to your digital TV.

As soon as your power enters your TV it is converted to DC, and then it is filtered. The filter on your TV matches the minimum requirements that your TV needs to function. There is no need to do it twice.

If you have a digital TV, then it's all 1's and 0's. It is inherently immune to this type of electrical noise. You should not expect a better picture quality by adding a filter to your TV any more than expecting a better picture quality on your computer's monitor, or a better print quality from your printer. Adding a filter can have a negative effect by filtering out the time sync signal for your VCR's display clock.

I've seen the how Monster cable promotes filtering on the package for their surge surpressors. This is just marketing BS.

Thanks, Plas...It makes sense, just seems too bad the UPS still remains susceptible to eventually frying, being in front of the Series Mode protection.

I wish someone made a filtering, balanced power, series mode surge-suppressing UPS all-in-one unit.....(sigh.)

I'm checking out all the Furman Units to see what they have.

Photogold

The filtering in my case would be for my audio more than video...

Do you think that is a useful thing?

I've had an Adcom ACE-515 for several years. Never had a problem with Surge or Lightening, not sure however if this is a Surge Protector or just a Power Conditioner or?

Any Thoughts? Thinking of upgrading for more protection.

Originally posted by TS45
I've had an Adcom ACE-515 for several years. Never had a problem with Surge or Lightening, not sure however if this is a Surge Protector or just a Power Conditioner or?

Any Thoughts? Thinking of upgrading for more protection.

It is both. I would say there is no need to upgrade, but a UPS would give you the opportunity to turn off your TV in case of a power outage.

Just found this on the APC site:

http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=310

From the page:

From the power engineering labs of APC comes the M Type Power Conditioner with Battery Backup. Pure sine wave battery backup, surge protection, isolated noise filtering, and voltage regulation all combine in a single unit to deliver pure, uninterrupted power for high performance AV, home security, and automation systems. 12 surge-protected power outlets ensure your investment is protected from damaging surges, spikes, and even lightning. Isolated input and output noise filter banks help eliminate Electromagnetic and Radio Frequency Interference (EMI/RFI) as a source of audio-video signal degradation. Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) technology corrects brownout and over-voltage conditions to eliminate stress on component power supplies and to prevent voltage fluctuations from negatively impacting AV quality. COAX, phone, and Ethernet protection jacks protect components from surges traveling over data lines. Pure sine wave battery backup power prevents lost pre-sets, missed DVR recordings, lost multimedia server data, damaged hard drives, and helps eliminate interruptions in your entertainment when the power goes out. Battery power will also keep home automation and security systems operational when blackouts occur. Sequenced outlet turn-on delays, LED/display dimmer controls, a DC voltage trigger, a TVSS grounding screw, and a high quality fit-and-finish also help make the M Type the ideal "all-in-one" power protection unit for high performance home entertainment, security, and automation systems.

It has a Jules rating in the specs, so I would assume it is MOV based. I was thinking though that combined with a Brickwall (or Surgex or ZeroSurge) might be a good lower cost solution with UPS for us with less invested in our HT.

I an no electrical expert, so I don't know wether the features listed are really good for HT use or mere hype. Maybe someone more knowlegable can check out the specs and let us all know your thoughts on it. These are due in the 4th quarter, and I read on another forum supposedly to be priced between $200 and $400.

Originally posted by marcelval
Just found this on the APC site:

http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=310

These are due in the 4th quarter, and I read on another forum supposedly to be priced between $200 and $400.
Well, they are wrong.

Here is an excerpt from an article about it:

"The M10 and M15 will be available in early December 2004 in North America. The M10 will have an estimated resale price of $1,299, while the M15 will retail for $1,499."

<http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:zzedQTfz_KkJ:www.siliconstrategies.com/article/showArticle.jhtml%3Fprid%3DX235827+apcc+m10&hl=en>

It is quite expensive, plus one would still need an SM surge protector. Probably a good product, if one has an expensive home theater.

I pulled the trigger on a used APC Smart-UPS 700. (I used Logic Box as they have a Canadian outlet.) The unit is slightly scratched etc. but nothing too terrible. Total cost was $119 Canadian (taxes and shipping included). Given that a lamp is $299 (+ taxes), this is cheap peace of mind. A new APC Back-UPS 1000VA would have been around $159 C + taxes so I saved money and arguably got a more suitable UPS (I'm still not convinced its necessary to have the pure sine wave output but thought I'd play it safe).

For the moment I only use the UPS to protect the Sony LCD RPTV and power to the HD cable box. I use a basic APC surge protector to protect the cable line in and a few "cheaper to replace" devices (VHS, DVD etc.).

Surges aren't a big problem where I live (newer neighbourhood with underground utilities). However I may eventually invest in a Brickwall surge protector for that final level of protection.

IMO these high priced audio series line filter/surge protectors may be of some value to a purist but I can't justify the cost/benefit ratio (my total HT investment is at about $6K Can.).

Originally posted by QZ1
Well, they are wrong.

Here is an excerpt from an article about it:

"The M10 and M15 will be available in early December 2004 in North America. The M10 will have an estimated resale price of $1,299, while the M15 will retail for $1,499."


Darn, I knew those prices sounded too good to be true!

Ok after having gone through this whole thread from front to back my head is aching! But I thank you all for the headache since it means I have learned a whole lot.

My HT investment totals about $6000, and won't go far beyond that. I've been using an APC Back-UPS model, and I have learned through this thread that it is a no-no for various reasons.

So for surge suppression I am looking at a Brickwall R215 and a Surgex SA15.
My question is if the EMI/RFI filtering in the SA15 is worth the extra hundred dollars.

Secondly can anyone confirm that the SmartUPS series actually outputs a true sine wave? If it does not are we talking potential damage to equipment, or just a possible descrease in quality. Living in southern California we have a lot of brown out issues, but not really to many complete power losses (once in 2 years where I live now).

I wish I could afford something like the Exact Power, but it's just not in the budget. I want to protect my equipment and maximize the audio and video quality as best I can, but I really can't spend more than about $400.

Thanks again, and for any advice to come.

Where are you guys purchasing the Brick Wall units? I can't find them anywhere other than direct from Brick Wall.

Well I certainly feel foolish with close to 8 grand worth of equipment plugged into some crappy power supply I have had for years. Great thread. Question, I dont want to spend a fortune on these things and would like an all-in-one solution. There are alot of old Adcom 515 online. Since they are not consumables like MOV based surge protectors age should not matter, correct? They seem very similiar to the 315 for a significant price advantage.

I think I would choose to forgo any UPS since power outages here are infrequent, and I doubt one or two will hurt my DLP, maybe just shorten bulb life by not cooling it off?

In reality mine and most other extended warranties on the DLP's cover surges so this would just be a little extra insurance!

Brickwalls are available from www.sellcom.com for slightly less than Brickwall themselves. Those are the only two sources I know of.

Ok, just ordered my equipment... I got a APC SU700 UPS (reconditioned with new battery), a brickwall PW8R15AUD, and several surgender coax surpressors all for just under $400 incl shipping and tax. Now I just need something to throw on the phone line going to my Tivo... Any suggestions?

Thanks for all the great contributions on this topic. I have learned a great deal. In addition to reading this thread, I have visited a number of the product manufacturer websites MOV & SM, UPS, etc. & talked to a few as well. As typical with detailed product research, differing viewpoints exist. I would appreciate your assistance in helping me arrive at my final protection decision.

Let’s start with my situation:
- Lightning relatively rare in my area 3 – 4 “big” lightning storms per year (have never lost any equipment).
- Power outages 10 – 20 per year (most usually last for < 10min some even 10sec).
- AC cleanliness (needing power line filtering) – don’t know?? (house is 8yrs old, using X10 home automation over AC).
- Lights slightly dim when refrig or HVAC motor kicks in. Brownouts fortunately extremely uncommon in my area.
- Want to protect Samsung HLP5685, Directv/Tivo HR10-250, Bose Lifestyle 28, Game cube, DVD & VCR (all on same circuit).
- Budget for protection equipment ~$300.

Combination of products being considered:
- Brickwall – PW2R15 or PW2RAUD
- Panamax – M8HC-PRO or MAX 8 DBS+5
- Surgender – 201-590
- APC Smart-UPS – Refurb Smart-UPS SU700XL

Unanswered questions:
1) MOV manufacturers claim although sacrificial, the MOV’s will not be spent over 10’s of years (essentially lifetime of a couple of generations of equipment, therefore, not an issue). Do I really need a SM unit? The Panamax (unlike Monster) has a “catastrophic fuse” to prevent fire.
2) SM does not protect against internal common mode surges. If I only use SM, should I be concerned about internal common mode surges?
3) MOV units tend to also incorporate satellite & phone protection where only higher end SM units do (can use Surgender for satellite but what for phone?).
4) I’ve read that UPS’s “dirty” the AC (resulting in video & audio noise – I’d rather have the picture & sound quality). Is this noticeable?
5) I would tend to use the UPS only to allow for graceful power down except for Tivo which may be on while unattended. Is sine versus approximated sine - important?

I like the idea of the SM (Brickwall) for power surge protection with Surgender for satellite.
I like the diversity of the Panamax offering for # of outlets, line filtering, phone & satellite, and some surge protection (Panamax, unlike Monster has a “catastrophic fuse”).
I like the UPS for the power interruptions.
I’d like to have more money to get them all.

Options being considered (not necessarily in order of preference):
Option #1 - [Wall]-->[Brickwall & Surgender]-->[TV&Components] <<$300 (no phone protection)

Option #2 - [Wall]-->[Panamax]-->[UPS]-->[TV&Components] <$300

Option #3 - [Wall]-->[Brickwall]-->[Panamax]-->[TV&Components] ~$300

Option #4 - [Wall]-->[Brickwall & Sugender]-->[UPS]-->[TV&Components] <$400 (no phone protection)

Trying to stick to the $300 budgetary number, what combo option would you recommend?
Although the request for informed feedback to my particular situation is self-serving, I suspect that there are a number of others out there confronting the same dilemma and could also benefit from your responses. Thank you in advance.

moonhawk, I copied this from the APC website regarding the XL unit that I am considering. "Protects connected loads from surges, spikes, lightning, and other power disturbances." Also, I don't know what the paranoia is about MOV based units. They have Tranzorbers in front of the MOVs which take the small hits so the MOVs are not affected until they have a signicant power surge or lightning strike or whatever. So they do not degrade if they are not taking on any hits. They are in the PSAUDIO Power Plant and Power Director 4.7 a second line of defence. Then there is a thermal fuse which is the third line of defence if the Transzorders fail, and the MOVs fail then the fuse shuts down the entire system. Nothing goes past the blown fuse. So I have power to shut down everything if I'm there or have uninterruped power to enable everything to stay online and record without any damage. I am not going to run my plasma off of this but off of the PSAUDIO power plant but directly off of a feed from the APC Smart-UPS XL battery backup to my PSAUDIO Power Director 4.7 and them the plasma is connected to the PD 4.7. I don't need the benefits of the PSAUDIO power plant because it does its own filtering and uses an awful lot of AC (about 480 watts). I'm using the PSAUDIO power plant mostly for audio, video devices such as my HD Tivo with 550 gig of hd space, my SD Tivo with 280 gig of hd space, my Samsung HD STB and my Denon AVR-5803.

Up by 1, I have been grappling with the same issues. I don't have answers for all your questions, but I have some thoughts.

1) My biggest concern with MOV based devices is ones that do not warn you that they have failed. It's impossible to know just how long they will last, as everyone's power is different. I chose a Brickwall PW8R15AUD for the number of outlets, and the better internals than their standard model.

2) Don't know about internal common mode surges, I'd be interested in an answer to this too. Since my TV and Tivo will be on an APC SmartUPS (as in your option #4) and that is also an MOV based device I am not too worried.

3) I found a Tripp Lite phoneline surge suppressor for $15 online. It plugs into an outlet since it needs to be grounded and protects 1 phone line.

4-5) I wanted a UPS to protect the bulb in my set during a power failure, to keep my Tivo up and running, and also to correct for under voltage situations which seem common in my house (lights dim etc). As for sine wave, the smart UPS models 700 and up claim to output pure sine waves when powered or running off battery. I'll plug my audio equiplent straight into the brickwall to avoid any noise the UPS might add.

You can probably get a 2 outlet brickwall and a refurbed UPS for about $300.

Originally posted by Up By 1


> ...
5) I would tend to use the UPS only to allow for graceful power down except for Tivo which may be on while unattended. Is sine versus approximated sine - important?
> ...


My background includes supervising the generation and distribution of both AC power (60Hz & 400Hz) and DC power (both as a source for generating AC and as a storage medium for backup of critical AC loads upon loss of normal AC power sources.)

It is my experience that if two sources of AC power are operated as parallel sources or generators that the effective waveform seen by the loads when one of the sources is carrying virtually the entire load is the waveform of that loaded source operating alone. The waveform of the smaller generator that is connected in parallel and not carrying any significant load is essentially not "seen."

In your case, say you have a total audio-visual load of 300 watts, the power company will be providing that 300 watts and the UPS will likely be providing only milliwatts and the resulting waveform as sen by your TV will be very nearly the sine wave power that the power company provides. In fact, it is likely that the UPS will be acting as a load and not as a source and your equipment will not even see the UPS's "output" waveform. This would be done to keep the battery on a positive "float" to keep it charged. (For the math inclined, if one did a Fourier analysis to represent the two combined waveforms certainly there would be sinusoidal components present at frequencies other than 60 Hz. These other components would be of much lower amplitudes than the fundamental 60Hz - that might present a problem in the form of audio "noise." Additionally the UPS may be creating circuit "noise" due to other than output waveform shape issues - just as any piece of electrical equipment may do. (The worst source of electrical "noise" in my home is a Caller ID unit I own. )

If you lose power or suffer either a low voltage or a high voltage condition the UPS takes over as the power source. My experience has been that TV�s and other audio-video devices survive and operate just fine for the period of the outage while on the UPS. As you suggested, the TV will be exposed to this waveform for just a couple of minutes while you shut down your equipment.

I personally am more concerned about the surges accompanying the restoration of power than the actual power loss transient. Using a UPS will serve to isolate your set completely during those subsequent attempts by the utility to restore power following a loss, while a surge protector would be called upon to protect your equipment multiple times.

I will PM you with another candidate UPS for your consideration - 1100 VA, 640 Watts with AVR for under $100 delivered.

I apologize for the long post - I generally just read and have learned lots here on these forums. I just thought I might offer my take on concerns for UPS waveform shape.

SaltiDawg, could you PM me as well and thank you very much for your info. I was wondering if the UPS would treat the current as a passthru and only use whatever it needed to charge the battery. I as well am concerned that during a momentary outage the power company tries several times to restore power which results in multiple surges coming down the line and into my house. So if I hook up the PSAUDIO power plant after the UPS device then the UPS would pass as much power as needed to the power plant. So if it needed 1000 watts of power for the P1000 power plant and 500 watts of power for the plasma, would I only need a 500 watt UPS device since it would only be backing up what devices were downstream from the P1000 power plant and not the plasma? I thought I might need more than 1000 watts since the P1000 requires about 1.5 times more wattage than it regenerates.

SaltiDawg, thanks for the great post. Why not just make that UPS candidate public knowledge!

Can anybody tell me the difference between APC's current model SUA750 and the older model SU700NET (other than the small rating difference)?

I would like to get the current model, but it is about $200 more for a new current model vs a refurb of the older model (no one has the newer model in refurb yet). Tx.

Originally posted by rpr
Can anybody tell me the difference between APC's current model SUA750 and the older model SU700NET (other than the small rating difference)?
Besides the 50W difference from 450W to 500W, there are now six outlets instead of four. I am sure there are other differences though. You should download the instructions for each of the UPSs from APC's site. The 700 isn't listed, but if you use the search function, the product info. is still there.

this caught my eye:

http://www.panamax.com/pdf/PanamaxMHC-UPS.pdf

Originally posted by TS45
I've had an Adcom ACE-515 for several years. Never had a problem with Surge or Lightening, not sure however if this is a Surge Protector or just a Power Conditioner or?

Any Thoughts? Thinking of upgrading for more protection.


Wow, spent the whole morning reading this thread. I too have an ACE-515. I just called Adcom and they said it's MOV based. I inquired about their new 315 and 615 to use it with the 515. The problem is that the 315 and 615 are 12V triggered to turn on and the 515 is AC triggered.

Either way, I am short 1 plug on the 515 for my new plasma. I have my marantz receiver, 2 subwoofers, directv, dvd player, cd player.

I'm now considering the Brickwall Audio version. or the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet. 2 outlets I think is enough. 1 for my plasma, 1 for my ACE 515?

Or should I get rid of the ACE515 and go with the 8 outlet Brickwall? I'm trying to stay in a budget of around $300. The new Adcom is also a consideration. What bugs me with that is it only has 2 coax. I have an HD Tivo which has 3 coax (2 for satellite, 1 for OTA).

I'm concerned about surge, but also really want to have line conditioning to hopefully improve picture or sound. The house I'm in is built in the 50's and there aren't any 3 prong outlets!!

Can I use a cheater plug?

Any help would be great. I'm glad I found this thread as I was just about to buy a monster unit on ebay.

I have a question similar to gadgetfreaky, in that I have a surge protector/power conditioner from Tripp Lite that I have been using for the last couple of years. I have no complaints and don't have any noise or interference.

However, I just added an HDTV receiver from DirecTV (already had a Tivo), so now the two sets of coax inputs/outputs on my conditioner no longer handle all of my coax connections.

I did some research on the tweaking forum and found a link to starlink-dss:

www.starlink-dss.com/mini-surge.htm

and picked up some of the coax surge protectors at $5.95 each.

My question is, do these provide protection that is as good as, or better than, the protection found on the inputs/outputs of a surge protector? Thanks.

I'm not sure what the differences are between the $5.95 part and the $4.95 part on the page you linked, if any. If you search this thread for "surgender", you will find discussions of the latter part. Those are designed to cease passing any signal when the surge protection is used up, as I recall.

Brian

Originally posted by bkzoller
I'm not sure what the differences are between the $5.95 part and the $4.95 part on the page you linked, if any. If you search this thread for "surgender", you will find discussions of the latter part. Those are designed to cease passing any signal when the surge protection is used up, as I recall.

Brian

Thanks.:)

Originally posted by tjk
My question is, do these provide protection that is as good as, or better than, the protection found on the inputs/outputs of a surge protector? Thanks.

You might compare the technical data for the tripp lite surge protector to this in-line cable surge protector.

http://dlsus.chainreactionweb.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by jdmoser
You might compare the technical data for the tripp lite surge protector to this in-line cable surge protector.

http://dlsus.chainreactionweb.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118

Hope this helps.

Thanks - looks like, to my electrically uneducated mind, at least, that these in-line protectors are at least as good if not better than the ones on strip surge protectors. I like tha fact that they don't pass a signal if they are no longer protecting from surges.

Is there an inline DSL/phone surge protector that is similar? (doesn't use a ground line) I have searched and found nothing.

Originally posted by QZ1
Is there an inline DSL/phone surge protector that is similar? (doesn't use a ground line) I have searched and found nothing.

I have been wondering the same thing myself. I did a Google search on "gas tube surge telephone RJ11" and I turned up a product that looks promising. The price is a tad expensive, however. Does this look like it might behave similarly to the coaxial gas tube surge protectors? This is called the "Tripp Lite Telespike Blok", and I was able to find better prices by searching the model name.

http://www.tessco.com/products/getProductInfo.do?sku=18943

Here is a different one for a similar price as the first link.

http://catalog.blackbox.com/BlackBox/templates/blackbox/itemgroup3372guest.asp?param=184&ig_id=3372&title=DSL+Surge+Protector&related=

Brian

You might want to check out FURMAN SOUND on their website they are going to release the POWER STATION series next month - MSRP $129


Furman’s Series Mode Protection (SMP) delivers the purest AC power and the most comprehensive protection available – going far beyond what is found in traditional surge strips. With Furman’s Power Station Series, everyone can reap the benefits of unrivaled power purification and unequalled surge protection.
The Furman SMP circuit which incorporates Linear Filtering Technology (LiFT) to insure that any electronic device (including televisions, projectors, CD-DVD players, or computers) is fed clean, filtered AC power.

I could not wait so I picked up their rack mounted PL-8 SERIES II power conditioner. But the new line will also protect your cable and telco.

Originally posted by QZ1
Is there an inline DSL/phone surge protector that is similar? (doesn't use a ground line) I have searched and found nothing.

Be aware that most of the cheap ones that are on surge strips actually degrade the DSL signal to the point that it often doesn't work.

I had DSL problems one time, until a tech came by and pointed out the surge strip I was using for the telephone line for the DSL modem. Plugged it straight into the wall, and no problems since.

-Ed

Just wondering if anyone tried the TrippLite Isolation Transformer Model # IS1800HG that was suggested in this thread a few months ago. It looks like an interesting unit, though it doesn't output balanced power. And I realize it's MOV based, but couldn't you just stick a Brickwall or equivalent in front of it if you were obsessed with surge protection?

As an alternative, I've been thinking about going with the Tripp Lite line conditioner (which is really a voltage regulator), the LC1800, which outputs 120v for any input between 87v and 140v--at a fraction of the cost of the Exactpower or PSAudio units. If the power output is noisy, I could add a balanced power unit (or the isolation transformer above) to the chain to clean it up. I've been kicking these and similar ideas around
in this thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=461070)

Mike

Can anyone recommend a place to get a good deal on an APC SUA750 or SUA1000 (the newer black units)?

Refurbups.com does not have these newer models in refurbs yet, and new units at Newegg are a bit much for my taste. Would greatly appreciate any help. Tx.

Originally posted by bkzoller
I have been wondering the same thing myself. I did a Google search on "gas tube surge telephone RJ11" and I turned up a product that looks promising. The price is a tad expensive, however. Does this look like it might behave similarly to the coaxial gas tube surge protectors? This is called the "Tripp Lite Telespike Blok", and I was able to find better prices by searching the model name.

See the manufacturer's site:

<http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=149>

It uses grounding, so it is not good. In fact, reading Brickwall's printed instructions, it sounds like it would make things worse to use a surge protector using grounding in conjunction with an SM. That is why I won't be using the phone/DSL protector that is built into the UPS, that I will be getting for my PC, along with a ZeroSurge or Brickwall.

Does the Tripp-Lite require grounding to protect the phone line from surges, or is that just for "convenience"? There is no owner's manual available for that part. What about the item from Black Box? That link seems to be down now, but it was working last week. The green wire on it seems to be intended for grounding, also.

Why would grounding on the phone line be a problem? We're not talking about a grounded MOV surge suppressor on the A/C line in this case.

Brian

Grounding wires are there to be used. But, as we have learned, this is inferior surge protection. Using such a device would relay the surge to the A/C Ground, which is harmful to everything in the house. Brickwall specifically says not to use anything MOV-based next to it, on the same outlet.

the furman looks interesting. any exact date on release?

I bought the RS Coaxial Surge Suppressor, because the specs. looked better than the one from Surgender.

One spec., that I question, is 'Return Loss'; the RS appears to have much less than the Surgender.

What is 'Return Loss', and is it better to have more or less loss?
Common sense tells me it should be less, but I am not sure.

Another question: For HD/Digital Cable use, does the frequency range need to start at 5 MHz or is 10 MHz fine?

QZ1,

I assume you're talking about the passthrough frequency range.

10MHz is fine for starting point.

Actually you don't care about any signals below 48MHz on regular cable, and digital cable resides in the range of ~100MHz-900MHz. You typically see pass through ranges ~40MHz-1000MHz for signal boosters and 5MHz-1000MHz on Coaxial Surger Suppressors for cable.

-CCourtney

I'm in a very old house where not a single electrical outlook has the 3-pronged inputs (no ground). I have to use a 3 to 2 input adapter to plug in any appliance that requires the ground connector. Does this render surge protectors and UPS units useless?

If the answer is yes, what other options do I have? Renters insurance is my only backup plan right now....

I just found out that all of the plugs in my living room are without grounds - no ground wires are going into each outlet. I purchased a Monster HomeTheater 1100 PowerBar, and I am now wondering what I can do. The TV is being delivered tomorrow and I am really beside myself. I heard that a battery back up UPS is what to use and plug the powerbar into that? Any help would be most appreciated!

Lodey,

Call an electrician.

Lodey,
I was in the same situation as you. I had an electrician run two new grounded lines. One to my entertainment center and one to my computer. It cost me $125 each. Good luck.

Brian

Originally posted by blightfoot
Lodey,
I was in the same situation as you. I had an electrician run two new grounded lines. One to my entertainment center and one to my computer. It cost me $125 each. Good luck.

Brian

That's not too bad, here in Los Angeles, a dedicated line install cost $250 plus for one!

FYI
If anyone's interested in reasonably good prices on PS Audio equipment, I just got an Ulimate Outlet and Juice Bar 20% off MSRP at Mr. Cable in Long Beach CA: mr-cable.com

Thanks everyone for helping me make an educated buy, I was looking for surge protection & line conditioning for a few hundred $. Although the UO is not an MOV, it's multistage protection seems like a very robust system. The plus to this is that it also has line conditioning. Claim is 40db of noise suppression. Since I'll never know enough about this stuff, I welcome any further feedback on this purchase.

One further question, is it true that Sammy DLP TVs will not benefit from line conditioning because it's internals are all digital? I mainly bought the UO for the receiver but wonder if it would benefit the TV as well. (Haven't got the TV yet, it's the next toy in line...)

My Sammy DLP's PQ benefitted (albeit slightly) from adding an Exact Power.

Certain engineers told me this was impossible.

My eyes don't care about whether it's possible. :D

My wife and I noticed a difference with a Richard Gray connected to our Samsung 6163. She thought the image quality was sharper. I thought the contract improved. This observation was made viewing DVDs through the component inputs.

Originally posted by jebel
I'm in a very old house where not a single electrical outlook has the 3-pronged inputs (no ground). I have to use a 3 to 2 input adapter to plug in any appliance that requires the ground connector. Does this render surge protectors and UPS units useless?

If the answer is yes, what other options do I have? Renters insurance is my only backup plan right now....

Not useless, just dangerous. Ground wires are there to protect you from getting shocked or killed if there is an electrical problem with a piece of equipment.

For MOV-based surge protection devices, any surge current also gets diverted to the ground wire. If a MOV-based surge protection device attempted to divert a surge to ground but there was no ground connection, very likely a fire would result.

Your best bet is a series-mode surge protection device such as a Brickwall or others, these do not divert anything to the ground. You are still without a ground which is a safety issue, but at least a surge in this case shouldn't cause a fire.

Note that all of these suggestions are inherently unsafe. To be safe, you really need to have a grounded circuit.

MY head is spinning after reading most of the replies in this thread.

I'm thinking of getting the Tripp-lite HT1500UPS to protect my home theater equipment. It is a combination Surge protector / UPS. From the thread it seems that SM is the way to go for surge suppression, but I want the UPS because I have all too frequent short power outages (a few seconds to a few minutes).

My question is does the UPS feature make up for the short comings of a MOV based surge suppressor, or should I consider getting a SM surge suppressor to put in front of the UPS?

Thanks,

-Bruce


btw: here are the specs for the UPS.

http://www.tripplite.com/shared/pdf/spec/tlspec_2802.pdf

Bruce,

It has been a topic of discussion here, but I would say the UPS does not make up for the shortcomings of a MOV-based surge suppressor.

My setup includes an APC Smart UPS plugged into a Brickwall, because I too have frequent power outages and fluctuations.

Note that most all consumer UPSs have some sort of MOV-based protection built in.

I agree with both of jdiff's most recent posts, excellent responses IMO.

I probably agree with some of his other posts too, but I haven't read them all yet!

Doug,

A while back someone sent a response from PS Audio on the internal protection hardware of the Ultimate Outlet. What I like about the protection of the UO is the parallel (vs. in-line serial for SMP) aspect of of the UO. From the opinions of some, this gives greater sound stage on audio systems. I respect your advice and appreciate if you have any further thoughts/feedback on the UO non-SMP surge protection.

thanks

mayhew,
I remember that discussion about the UO (in a 50 year old, near term memory loss sort of way). I'm no electrical engineer and have no ears-on experience with any PSA product. If Paul maintains it's as safe or safer than SM protection I would never argue. He's an honest guy by all accounts and certainly more technically qualifed than me.

I think you should ship a UO to me for a soundstage comparison! I have a pretty good vinyl front end, so I am qualifed to judge that! ;-)

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
I think you should ship a UO to me for a soundstage comparison! I have a pretty good vinyl front end, so I am qualifed to judge that! ;-)

You could drop over to the CT house this weekend. I have the PS, the Brickwall and 4 other high-end filter/protection devices. Judge for yourself. ;-)

Kal

Ok, if a Series Mode is what I need for the best protection and I want a UPS because I have all too frequent multiple second power outages, what do people think of the combination of:

Furman PL-8 Series II and a Tripp-lite HT1500UPS?


I think I can get the pair for about $225.

http://www.furmansound.com/pro/pwr_cond_seq/cond/Series%202.htm
http://www.tripplite.com/shared/pdf...tlspec_2802.pdf

-Bruce

Doug,

Are you aware of any DSL/Phone (RJ11) inline protectors, that don't use a grounding cord? (similar to the various Coax inline protectors)
Of course, this would be for use with an SM surge protector.

I searched a lot, and only found one very expensive protector.

I'm a bit curious about these battery backup devices, and as I read through this thread, my head is spinning with all the technical talk. As a dumb "TV User" I was wondering about a few things:

1. Is there just a simple battery backup that would keep the TV on long enough for you to shut it down properly? IOW, I'm not worried about Tivo, recording, or anything else... all I want to know is when I do have a power outage and my house goes dark... I can use the remote to shut down the TV (DLP) and let the fan cool the bulb properly. I don't ever leave the set on and leave the house, so it shouldn't be rocket science to shut it off. No program, movie, or sports event is _that_ important that I have to have enough power to keep the system going for 3 hours.

2. Am I misreading the thread or are the resident experts suggesting that connecting your DLP TV to a basic APC like a Belkin Universal Power Supply Model F6C800-UNV (800 watts) will cause some sort of distortion to the picture while watching it when your 110v is fully operational? This particular unit supposedly has a 45 minute lifeline. Another alternative would be the Tripp Lite Home Theatre 1500 AV UPS - HT1500UPS.

3. My intention (if it's really needed) would be to connect my AV receiver, VCR, DVD, and CD changer to a simple surge protector, and just have the TV connected to the UPS type device. So... do you need some sort of surge protector in between the wall outlet, the APC, and the TV set? I should note that I've had my old 35" CRT Toshiba and all my AV stuff connected to a very ordinary surge protector strip for years and never have I had any damage to any component. The DLP bulb cooldown presents a slightly different problem, and that's what I'm trying to explore.

So, for the experts out there, maybe you can give us simpletons a laymans explanation of; (a) what we need, (b), why we need it, and (c) some economical alternatives that aren't going to break the bank. Just assume that all we're trying to do is protect and prolong the DLP bulb. BTW, I've heard that there's a company offering a 3-year DLP bulb warranty for $150 and they will replace up to two bulbs in the 3-year period regardless of the cause. Haven't found a corresponding web site yet though. Its an interesting alternative providing that you don't have an abnormal amount of power outages/surges. I also don't know whether factory warranties specifically state that they are voided if there's a power spike. Frankly, with DLP sets costing in the multi-thousands, you'd think the marketing people would be insisting that the engineers include adequate protection inside the TV, even to the point of having a dedicated battery backup for the dlp fan. Or is that too naive?

But thanks in advance for "UPS for DLP Dummies". :)

Iron Horse

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
Foxbat121 (and everyone else who has cable, satellite and/or a roof antenna),

Sorry for your disaster. APC makes a coax surge protector that sells for about $25-30. Put these on all coax lines that connect your system to the outside. They're MOV-based and should be replaced every year or two, but that's way better than nothing. Coax lines that go outside the house are an open path to every lightning storm that passes through.

Doug

I am new to this forum and HT in general. Will shortly be setting up a Samsung HLP5674 couple to a Comcast HD DVR combo cable box, Denon 3805 Recevier, Denon 2910 DVD along with a B&W speaker surround system. I got all my cables (Monster) at pretty good discounts. now I need surge protection and possibly line conditioning (don't know). I liver in Portland, OR (did live in Branford, CT for 13 yrs so I know what lightening is like!! Actually we have very few lightening storms here (maybe 2-3 a year and not the intensity of CT). We do have shor term power outages. In the past I have used standard strip surge protectors for my soon to be retired Rotel sound system. Can you give me some priorities here?? The SM surge protectors sound like a good idea. I will re-read your "bible" on protectors and await your reply.

thanks

M

Originally posted by zxe018
I also use a brickwall unit as my surge supressor. Got it over year ago because of the rolling black outs here in Cali., and haven't seen any problems with surges on my equipment. I also use the brickwall unit in front of an isolation transformer (bpt-2 ultra from www.b-p-t.com), which provides balanced power to my equipment.

Brickwall was a special guest here at the special guest forum. You might want to do a search there to get more info.

I figure if you're spending a good amount of hard-earned money on your system, spending just under $200 for a good surge supressor is worth while and shouldn't put that much of a dent in your pocket.

Which Brickwall unit did you get and from where? I plan to use my with my HT system, DLLP, Denon recevier and DVD player and Comcast HD DRV combo box.

Thanks

Mike

Am I mistaken? I always thought that a brownout was horrible for electronics gear and that a surge protector would do nothing for this. That is where the UPS came in. So would it be a problem to go wall --> UPS -->Brickwall (or other surge protector) --> equipment?

QZ1,
Sorry, I don't know of any. Good question though, another path of vulnerability to consider.

mismatched,
I would always put surge protection first for an expensive system, lightning or no lightning. Last year a transformer on the power pole near my driveway decided to blow up. No obvious external reason, it just exploded with a bang loud enough to wake the dead. Burned ceramic bits all over the lawn. The power spike burned out the $300 circuit board in our two week old kitchen range, even though it wasn't turned on at the time. The stereo, which was turned on, was unharmed. Thank you Surgex. $300 or less for highly reliable insurance seems like good value to me.

Power conditioning is more controversial and more YMMV in nature.

In CT, if you recall, there are frequent (sometimes daily) brownouts lasting a second or less. Blackouts are far rarer, at least for us. At work we've measured voltage levels coming out of the wall and they're extremely variable. We therefore chose an Exact Power EP15A, which stabilizes voltage and has enough reserves to fly through brownouts. IOW it was the right solution for our identifiable needs. Those with a different mix of needs would and should choose different solutions.

In terms of system performance it helped the audio more than the PQ, much more. I wouldn't have been happy spending $1800 for the small PQ improvement, but it was well worth it for the audio improvement. Of course we're two channel dinosaurs who spend 90% of our system time listening to - gasp - a turntable.

I finished reading this entire thread last night, and realized I had my system set up wrong. I had my Trip Lite Online Sine Wave UPS (http://www.tripplite.com/products/ups/smartonline.cfm) plugged into the wall, and my Sound Applications CF-X (http://www.soundstage.com/yfiles/yfiles200001.htm) plugged into it. Everything else came off the CF-X.

I rearanged my system so that the CF-X came from the wall, and my UPS plugged into an outlet on the CF-X. Then I plugged a Richard Gray Power Company into the UPS and plugged my projector into that. The rest of my system was plugged directly into the CF-X.

This made a significant difference in my picture quality, mostly because I think the UPS was overburdened and I was actually getting bulb flicker on my projector. I thought it was a bulb defect, but using the RGPC to stabilize the voltage coming from the UPS solved that problem, and improved sharpness, and contrast.

I also had more piece of mind having the monstrous CF-X protecting everything.

I am now remodeling another house, and want to do the electrical right. I am trying to figure out what would be the best approach for protecting the whole house, from the electricians stand point, and then come in with my line conditioners for my theater.

I am considering the Surge-X equipment, but it looks like you have to have a box for every breaker. Since I will have several dedicated circuits for my theater, and additional equipment around the house, on their own circuits, it seems like I would have many Surge-X boxes to cover it all. I didn't see a multiple circuit or whole house system on their site. I have also been looking at Environmental Systems (http://www.ep2000.com/Templates/EPResidential.html) with interest. They seem to have systems for everything, includint lightning and Telco. Does anyone know anything about their systems.

Finally, I am wondering, since I will have multiple wall mounted flat panels mounted around the home, should I wire them all into the same circuit as my home theater equipment. I will be sending whole house feeds from my Theater to those panels, so I am concerned about ground potential differentials if I put them on a different circuit than the equipment that is feeding them their video signal.

I would appreciate everyones thoughts :)

mismatched,
I would always put surge protection first for an expensive system, lightning or no lightning. Last year a transformer on the power pole near my driveway decided to blow up. No obvious external reason, it just exploded with a bang loud enough to wake the dead. Burned ceramic bits all over the lawn. The power spike burned out the $300 circuit board in our two week old kitchen range, even though it wasn't turned on at the time. The stereo, which was turned on, was unharmed. Thank you Surgex. $300 or less for highly reliable insurance seems like good value to me.

[/B][/QUOTE]

So would you go with the Surgex SA966 (8amp) or SA 1810 (15 amp)?

and why?

M

1. Is there just a simple battery backup that would keep the TV on long enough for you to shut it down properly?

I’m no expert and I’m am actually looking for advice here, I found following and the vendor indicates it will do what you want:


Tripp-Lite Home Theater UPS System (http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2802)

I just had a very interesting conversation with the CEO of Environmental Potentials (http://www.ep2000.com/Index.html) , and I told him I would send him a link to this thread, so hopefully he will chime in here. It sounds like his systems are unique, and do not use MOV's as sacrificial elements in their surge protection equipment. They have a wide range of residential and commercial equipment, including a new home theater unit. I think I am going to go with his products to protect my new home.

So would you go with the Surgex SA966 (8amp) or SA 1810 (15 amp)?

and why?You should go with a unit whose amperage capacity at least matches the amperage of the line. If you're not sure, ask an electrician to check the line and tell you what it's rated for. You can't judge by just checking the fuse (if you have fuses), since someone might have put the wrong value fuse on the line at some point (which could be very dangerous of course).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mismatched
[B]Doug

I am new to this forum and HT in general. Will shortly be setting up a Samsung HLP5674 couple to a Comcast HD DVR combo cable box, Denon 3805 Recevier, Denon 2910 DVD along with a B&W speaker surround system. I got all my cables (Monster) at pretty good discounts. now I need surge protection and possibly line conditioning (don't know). I liver in Portland, OR (did live in Branford, CT for 13 yrs so I know what lightening is like!! Actually we have very few lightening storms here (maybe 2-3 a year and not the intensity of CT). We do have shor term power outages. In the past I have used standard strip surge protectors for my soon to be retired Rotel sound system. Can you give me some priorities here?? The SM surge protectors sound like a good idea. I will re-read your "bible" on protectors and await your reply.

thanks

Mismatched- Appears we are in the same situation- just bought the 5674 7 strongly considering the 2 Denon pieces that you mentioned. Let me know how these oieces are along w/ your surge protector search.

Thanks to Doug for letting me "see the light"(no pun intented). I did not put much stock in power/surge protection but I now realize I'd be foolish not to. BTW, I live in Central NJ and brownout/blackout are rare but I do not want to gamble in this arena....

Originally posted by KFGman
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mismatched
[B]

Mismatched- Appears we are in the same situation- just bought the 5674 7 strongly considering the 2 Denon pieces that you mentioned. Let me know how these oieces are along w/ your surge protector search.

Thanks to Doug for letting me "see the light"(no pun intented). I did not put much stock in power/surge protection but I now realize I'd be foolish not to. BTW, I live in Central NJ and brownout/blackout are rare but I do not want to gamble in this arena....

KFGman

will keep you posted on the 5674 and said components. I have been getting tons of advice in terms of the surge protector line conditioning avenues. A compromise to get adequate amounts of each might be the Monster (dreaded of course) HTS2600. We dont have much lightning out here in Oregon but AC noise etc is significant according to a couple locals including a neighbor who owns a significant size electronics company..,,

so I will try to remember to post info on my components. You might also check the "HLP5674W/HLP4674W Owners....." forum here..

M

anyone have any info on the PS Audio UPC-200?

tanks!

Originally posted by mismatched
KFGman

will keep you posted on the 5674 and said components. I have been getting tons of advice in terms of the surge protector line conditioning avenues. A compromise to get adequate amounts of each might be the Monster (dreaded of course) HTS2600. We dont have much lightning out here in Oregon but AC noise etc is significant according to a couple locals including a neighbor who owns a significant size electronics company..,,

so I will try to remember to post info on my components. You might also check the "HLP5674W/HLP4674W Owners....." forum here..

M

Thanks mismatch- I have been checking out the 5674 owners thread and associated spinoffs. I take delivery later today on the 5674 & will make a decision on the surge/line conditioning shortly as a result. Will probably take time on Friday to do some more research...

Just a word of caution about Brick Wall protectors. Brick Wall claims their units will never experience a surge related failure. I took them at their word. Had a bad ice storm a few years back and the ice broke tree limbs, which fell across the power lines. The Brick Wall was trashed, and so was my new $1200 receiver. Called Brick Wall. They said they were "sorry, and knew how I felt." Being "sorry" has nothing to do with it, and they had no idea "how I felt."

I have been having an interesting ongoing discussion with the CEO of Environmental Potentials (http://www.ep2000.com/). We have discussed the different approaches to handling surges.

As I understand it, the "series mode protection" that is found in the BrickWall and SurgeX products, does degrade over time. It uses a lot of copper and iron to absorb the surge, and this causes a lot of heating and degredation of the absorptive capacity over time, as well as restricting bandwidth.

Environmental Potentials uses an approach, that applies an MOV, not as a suppression path, but as a switch, this allows their capacitance circuit to protect the MOV, and their product combines the speed of the MOV with the clamping power of the series mode approach. Apparently their product has been tested to "sustain 5,000 Combination B3 surges (6,000VAC, 500A) during a 3 day period with not a single degree of degradation."

Much of this is way over my head, and I am not sure I even understand what I wrote above, so don't ask me to explain it :)

They also are coming out with aHome Theater (http://www.ep2000.com/Templates/ep2450.html) product that looks interesting.

Originally posted by travlin'music
Just a word of caution about Brick Wall protectors. Brick Wall claims their units will never experience a surge related failure. I took them at their word. Had a bad ice storm a few years back and the ice broke tree limbs, which fell across the power lines. The Brick Wall was trashed, and so was my new $1200 receiver. Called Brick Wall. They said they were "sorry, and knew how I felt." Being "sorry" has nothing to do with it, and they had no idea "how I felt."

Man sorry to hear about the meltdown. This is one reason I am considering a unit by Monster such as the HTS2600. There is warranty on the unit of 5 yrs and circa $400,000 coverage of damaged equipment and they apparently stand behind the warranty. This forum and related seem to like to trash Monster in general but they have been a leader although others are catching up at least technically speaking. you can get a good deal on this unit on Ebay and a few online sites. PS I do not work for Monster but rather am a research scientist in biology. hence take this with a grain of salt anyway because what do I know about electronics!!

M

As for SMs and MOVs, I would say SM is better, as it sounds like more sound technology to me, since it can absorb the surge, rather than divert it; and few companies use it, as it is apparently more expensive to build. Also, in addition to ZeroSurge, Brickwall, and Surgex, a few years ago Adcom changed to SM, and recently, so did Furman.

The MOV protectors usually have an insurance policy. Of course, claims are not always honored anyway. I don't think any of the SMs do, I don't know why, maybe because some or all SM manufacturers are not such big companies to afford to pay insurance claims.

I remember somebody recently asked Panamax (MOVs) why he should buy a surge protector from them, rather than an SM, and Panamax claimed flaws in the SM techology.

Now, Envir. Potentials is claiming they are best. Most companies will try to point out flaws in the others, and show why they are the best. The Envir. Potentials products, using SM and MOVs, sound better than the rest, but, as you said, surge protection is complicated.

Hello All... I am sorry to be here so late in the game. I want to be very clear about the claims I made in my phone conversations with some of the members of this forum.

I have never bashed anyone's patented product line or company. I have never claimed we are "best". I have pointed out the things about competitive products that as a Power Quality professional, jump out at me as items of concern.

If anyone would like an opinion, I would be happy to discuss and will check back here often to see what is happening.

If I can shed any light on the differences between the Environmental Potentials product line and the other market players - there are folks on this forum that will tell you I have no problem taking the time to research these things as it takes only a few seconds.

Things to look for:

1. If the device has a "max surge current" rating - it's bogus (anything over 250,000 Amps was tested somewhere off of planet earth for reasons I would be happy to discuss). These ratings are mathematical theory and not true lab tests.

2. If it has a current rating at all, then it is a series device which is a bad design - go with a parallel product that monitors passively and filters actively.

3. Most of these products in the market shunt to ground by virtue of their MOV design (about a 30 year old technology). With the growth in volume of rectified non-linear loads, the reactive power that circulates in the ground loop is astounding and doesn't require much to induce a surge event. Unfortunately - this is the part where I give EP a shameless plug - we are the only patented product that does not shunt to ground - we absorb and dissipate the anomaly in a patented circuit that burns off residual energy within a nano-crystalline circuit encapsulated in a thermal inductive epoxy - end of plug...

4. Be leary of HEAVY equipment - this suggests stacks upon stacks of capacitors and MOV's - or as I described in earlier conversations as the "big copper" approach to dissipation. Only problem is, these methods do not address the real culprit in power quality - high frequency resonance. This subject requires a phone call rather than a forum rant...

5. Line conditioners are inductors and they resonate at high frequency - this stuff causes flicker, audio distortion, and shortened life span to interconnected equipment. What is worse, as frequency increases, an inductor becomes a capacitor - when stuff starts storing energy and discharging energy it makes for an environment that low voltage DC controls were never meant to endure.

To answer the original question at the beginning of this thread - the answer is YES, given the option of one of these offshore component MOV based, high frequency noise generating, multi-outlet extension cords and a Wal-Mart surge strip - Go to Wal-Mart and save your money.

Surge strips that use MOV's that store energy within their own capacitance "chatter" while suppressing the overvoltage or surge into the ground loop. Moreover - their clamping voltage rises with the initial and each subsequent "hit". Rated at 134 Volts clamping or 10% above peak on a 120AC outlet, these devices are internally fused - thermally - which means, the little red light is shining, but the device doesn't clamp at 300V, 500V, etc... you would never know you were using a defective "surge strip" and the burden of proof is on you to collect your bogus warranty.

Last note and sorry for length - harmonics are NOT the problem. 3rd, 5th, and 7th harmonics are the utilities issue because they adversely affect power factor. They are strong enough in amplitude to return back to the source thus cancelling out incoming current - the utility paid to generate power it won't get to bill for. High frequency resonance is the output of rectified loads - PC's, washing machines, LCD/Plasma, home theater/automation equipment - the world runs on a low voltage DC board designed to accept 60Hz sinusoidal signals. When a flourescent light ballast starts firing, the surge events generated repeatedly for many seconds generates the heat that allows the gas to produce light. This is an example of the reactive power pollution that cycles through the ground loop - at high frequency. This never gets talked about because it does not effect the utility - it will not return to the source, it will look for a low impedance path/load. This is why binary data packets are corrupted, why the board needs to be replaced in the PC, why VCR's stop working, etc... This pollution travels at 40, 50,60, 70kHz and into the MHz range.

Shunting anomalies to ground will only result in the event finding another path of least resistance - that is not ground. It is not a stretch at all to see 5 to 8 Ohms of impedance in your home ground system. Until you absorb, filter, and dissipate the high frequency contribution and eliminate it from the circuit - you really have not accomplished anything.

I look forward to thoughts and comments - and great thread!!!

Doug Joseph's response got me interested and I found this "Power Systems Study" that they did after installing an Environmental Potentials EP2000 in a Pepsi bottling plant. Granted it's not an HT, but still interesting nonetheless...or at least the parts I could understand being a power layman and all. Would love to find more "reviews" if Mr. Joseph or anyone can muster them up.
http://www.tripeaktech.com/pepsi_study.pdf

Check out the EP website at www.ep2000.com.
There is loads of information on it. I met and talked with the EP people at a PowerWorld convention last year. They were addressing power issues for commercial resources as well as the other vendors. There was only one company there that had a booth that made anything close to a home unit and that company was Equitech. EP's unit was an interesting idea because of the whole house protection as well as the series hookup of the units. ( Similar to the claims that Richard Gray make with connecting several units together) . True, it is not an audio unit or the typical plug and play unit, but it does provide surge protection for the circuit and filters the high frequency noise issues. To do this with an isolation transformer and line filters would be prohibitively expensive and require much more space.
I can't vouch for their plug and play unit but the EP2000 unit does do what it claims. I have tried numerous others line filter units, Richard Gray, Quantum Resonance Products, APS and Balanced Power Technology all great units in their own respect.

Hatfield - you are correct in that the equipment from the 3rd party Power Systems Study was our commercial devices that are mounted on the main service entry and subpanels throughout an industrial facility.

Here's the part all should know: We take the internal circuit of the EP-2000(the absolute standard for high frequency anomalous filtration, absorption, and dissipation), and isolate each of the 8 outlets in the EP-2450 Home Theater Unit with its own EP-2000 circuit, and a ground filter, and a cable in/out absorption and filtration connection as well - it is definitely the most robust home theater unit out there and has been tried and true protecting the automotive production lines for the Big 3 in Detroit for the last 5 years (PLC's, motors, drives, conveyors, robotics, etc...) by the way - the on/off switch is a 20A circuit breaker (my house has an EP-2000 on the load center and all my home theater is connected to the EP-2450 and I watch on a 42" Plasma through the unbelievably severe weather of Tampa, FL without turning my stuff off!)

For those of you into Home Automation or Home Office needs - our EP-2400 is a 19" rack mount device with the same characteristics as above except it is specifically designed to include the EP-2300 low order harmonic filter for 3rd, 5th harmonics which go hand in hand with computer equipment's switch-mode power supply rectifiers. It also has telephony and/or Ethernet surge absorption and filtration connection ports. This device (imho) will be the premier product for home/small office and data centers alike.

Fedreams - I am out of the office all day today - but if you want an opinion on any of the other products you have listed, I would be happy to check 'em out and give you my thoughts. Again, I am not a competition basher - they all have invested heavily in their designs and IP (if they are legitimate organizations) and it is my job to understand their approach, determine its value as a competitor, and be as honest with our prospects as we can. As the industry standard for high frequency resonance elimination, we have yet to run into another design that can compete with our circuit - and we are always looking...

I have just bought the Sony 55WF655 LCD RPTV and DirecTV HDTIVO. I'm looking at a smart-UPS for the Tivo and TV and Brickwall for surge surpression.

I have read though as much of this thread as possible, but some information is old and some contradicts other posts. I have the TV, HDTivo, DVD, Denon Receiver, and two powered speakers. I have a few questions that I would like advice on.

1. Is it OK to plug the UPS into a brickwall outlet? I will only use the UPS for the TV (bulb) and HDTivo.

2. For the TV and HDTivo, is a SmartUPS (over standard UPS) required? Is the additional cost worth it for those components?

3. Do I need to get the 8 outlet brickwall or can I get the two outlet, plug the UPS into one, and then us the non-backup plugs on the UPS to power the DVD, speakers, and receiver?

Thanks for any advice. Sorry if any questions are repeats.

Brian:
1. Yes this is exactly what you should do. That way the Brickwall protects the UPS from surges.
2. A SmartUPS is not required, though it is certainly better. There has been much debate but no consensus on whether the additional cost is worth it. Certainly the HDTivo has a switching power supply so a SmartUPS is not necessary. www.refurbups.com has decent deals on SmartUPSs so you may be able to get one there for the price of a new standard UPS.
3. I have the 2-outlet one, a UPS plugged into one outlet and other stuff not requiring the UPS plugged into a non-surge-suppressing power strip into the other Brickwall outlet. I say non-surge-suppressing power strip because it is recommended to not plug surge suppressors in series.

Originally posted by BrianBHD


2. For the TV and HDTivo, is a SmartUPS (over standard UPS) required? Is the additional cost worth it for those components?



After looking at UPS options from $60 to $600, I ended up getting this to cover my TV( Sony 55EF655), ReplayTV and Receiver(Denon AVR3200).

Tripp-Lite Home Theater UPS System (http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2802)

-Bruce

Originally posted by BrianBHD
2. For the TV and HDTivo, is a SmartUPS (over standard UPS) required? Is the additional cost worth it for those components?



The discussion of SmartUPS vs. standard centered on the quality of sine-wave output by the UPS, and how it would affect audio and video quality (for the whole story, read the last 15 pages or so of this thread).

According to the literature on the HT1500UPS, during normal operation it simply passes through the power, so the sine-wave is the same. If power goes out, you might notice a deterioration in picture from the TV (due to the pseudo-sine-wave put out by the batter backup), but you'd probably be turning it off anyway since the whole purpose of the UPS is just to give the TV time to have the bulb cooled down properly by the fan.

I purchased the same unit as bruce24, and saw no deterioration in picture on my Mits WD52725 (connected to DTiVo) during normal operation, but as always, YMMV.

The battery doesn't only kick in when there is a power failure. If the voltage fluctuates too much in your area, or does in the future, then the battery will kick in periodically, and deteriorate your a/v.

The power here is excellant, but I still opted for a Sine-Wave UPS, in case the power gets worse here in the future. I didn't want to have the possibility of having to buy another UPS in the future.

Originally posted by jdiff
Brian:
3. I have the 2-outlet one, a UPS plugged into one outlet and other stuff not requiring the UPS plugged into a non-surge-suppressing power strip into the other Brickwall outlet. I say non-surge-suppressing power strip because it is recommended to not plug surge suppressors in series.

Isn't the UPS technically a surge surpressor? That was the reason behind my first question.

All,

I am alos looking for a power "conditioning" solution for my HT.

How does this unit from blackbox (sp196a) compare to the brickwall, adcom etc.

Thanks in advance for your help

Power and protection for your rackmount equipment.

• Includes surge and spike protection, EMI filtering, and a 9-foot cord.
• Illuminated combination power switch/circuit breaker on front panel.
• Occupies only 1U of space in your rack.
• Generous 8.75“ (22.2-cm) depth gives easy access to eight 15- or 20-amp rear outlets. Also includes one front outlet.


Provide power and protection directly to your rackmounted equipment with our 15- and 20-amp Rackmount Power Strips.

Each strip comes with nine standard outlets and occupies only 1U of space in your rack. Both versions include surge and spike protection, EMI filtering, and an illuminated combination power switch/circuit breaker on the front panel.

Our Rackmount Power Strips also come with a 9-foot (2.7-m) power cord.


SPECIFICATIONS
Input Power Cord Length — 9 ft. (2.7 m)
Rated Current — SP196A: 15 A;
SP194A: 20 A
Connectors — Rear output outlets: (8) NEMA 5-20R;
Front output outlet: (1) NEMA 5-15R;
Input power cord: (1) NEMA 5-20R plug
Power — SP196A: 115 VAC, 60 Hz, 15 A;
SP194A: 115 VAC, 60 Hz, 20 A
Size — 1.75“H x 19“W x 8.75“D (4.4 x 48.3 x 22.2 cm)
Weight — SP196A: 6.3 lb. (2.9 kg);
SP194A: 8.8 lb. (4 kg)

Fido Protection — 2 Years

Originally posted by BrianBHD
Isn't the UPS technically a surge surpressor? That was the reason behind my first question.

Not neccessarily, it depends on what kind of UPS it is. There are 2 types. One essentially runs power directly through it to the equipment while batteries sit on standby. The other type runs power only to charge the batteries and your equipment is essentially run from the batteries at all times. The second type will suppress surges.

test

Hey Doug,
There is a test thread.

Test what?

I sure hope a power surge didn't take out his computer ;)

Just read this whole thread... Very good information. One question that I don't think got answered is that I understand MOV are going to eventually fail and go out and need to be replaced.

1. What is this approximate time frame?
2. Are there any that have warnings on them?

Thanks!

I have NOT read this entire thread but I want to say that if your power line conditioner is in series then the MOV will take the spikes and as stated fail after it reaches it's level of bombardment that it can't handle. But if your power line conditioner is in parallel like the Richard Gray's Power Co. products then it will not fail. As their products use an inductor which is connected in parallel and the inductor absorbs the smaller spikes and then slowly releases them back onto the line when the voltage sags, filling in the gaps thus keeping the voltage/current level. Each inductor can store and release 6 joules of energy that's 6000 watts instantly. Much faster than any capacitor. This is what separates them from other PLC.

Check them out here...
http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/instructions/index.html

Here is some in depth reading for those trying to understand the hype from the real.

http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/rgpc/surge.pdf

http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/rgpc/history.pdf

http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/testresultsforweb.pdf

Read this thread last night and want to thank everyone- it is priceless-
Read this after i purchased a non smart APS UPS on sale from Comp USA (XS1500va) for my 60XS955 Sony rplcd.

I emailed APS about the SX1500va UPS asking about sine wave- received this response.
"all of our Back-UPS would output a pure sine wave when they are operating on the utility power, however, on battery power it would always be a stepped approximated sine wave. Whereas all of our Smart-UPS would output a pure sine wave regardless of the kind of power source, be it the utility power supply or the battery."

This response differs from the previous APS response to another user stating only their SU 700 & above output pure sine wave on battery but at least i know its operating in pure sine wave from the wall when power is normal. Debating whether to return and get the smart unit. Thanks to all.

Originally posted by bgrpph
"all of our Back-UPS would output a pure sine wave when they are operating on the utility power, however, on battery power it would always be a stepped approximated sine wave. Whereas all of our Smart-UPS would output a pure sine wave regardless of the kind of power source, be it the utility power supply or the battery."

This response differs from the previous APS response to another user stating only their SU 700 & above output pure sine wave on battery but at least i know its operating in pure sine wave from the wall when power is normal. Debating whether to return and get the smart unit. Thanks to all.
Actually, it doesn't contradict what APC said before, because their product line has changed since then, they used to have Square-wave Smart UPSs, SU420 and SU620. SU700 and above were Sine-wave; those three (and maybe others) have been discontinued. Apparently, now, their entire new Smart UPS line is Sine-wave. It is easy enough to check, it would be listed in the specs of each UPS.

ok.. from reading this long post, i understand the setup should be Series Mode protection, then UPS or MOV, and add Coaxil surge suppression.

Bruce asked the question earlier if the combination of a Furman PL-8 Series II and a Tripp-lite HT1500UPS would work but no one answered him. Is this an adequate solution.

I have also read on other post about using a hospital grade isolation transformer with a clock outlet? Could this replace the SMP? For instance, by using the Tripp Lite IS-500 Full Isolation Transformer.

Thanks in advance!

Have you considered using an MOV surge protector that mounts to your electrical service panel via a spare breaker. This is code in Florida since we have tons of lightning a year. when the MOV dies, the breaker trips and thus telling you its need for replacement. As for the line conditioning most off the shelf brands should be fine. Really you are just using a capacitor in parallel to minimize sags and swells and reduce high frequency noise. I personally use a UPS at my equipment and the the MOV at my service. I am not a salesman of any type, just an EE that has been doing power quality for 12 years.

Does anyone know how much the Furman PL-8 Series II costs? The web site doesn't give a price.

Thanks,

John

I am not sure if anyone mentioned this since i couldn't get through the entire thread, but proper grounding is as important as any of this other stuff for good Power quality. Without a good ground on the electric service you spinning your wheels.

I just installed surgenders in-line between my wall and my directv tivo box.

A signal gets through, but if I reboot the tivo, the box cannot reaquire data from the satellite to reboot.

Is there a known compatibility problem between the surgenders and satellite?

I read this whole thread, but started to fade a little bit in the middle, so I could have missed something. Any device you can put on the co-ax line to protect surges down that line?

Lark

Not sure in your case, but when I ordered 4 surgenders, 2 were DOA.

But there should be no difference in the signal between when you reboot and at other times.

Not sure what's going on, then.

If the tivo is booted up and running and I install the surgenders, no problem; I get all my channels and programming guide info.

But if I reboot, it won't "reacquire satellite data" unless I take the surgenders out of the line.

Originally posted by lark
I just installed surgenders in-line between my wall and my directv tivo box.

A signal gets through, but if I reboot the tivo, the box cannot reaquire data from the satellite to reboot.

Is there a known compatibility problem between the surgenders and satellite?

I read this whole thread, but started to fade a little bit in the middle, so I could have missed something. Any device you can put on the co-ax line to protect surges down that line?

If you remove the surgender and reboot, does it reacquire the data? I have three of those boxes with surgenders and do not have that problem. Also, if the signal gets through before rebooting, I can't think of a reason why rebooting would make the signal get interrupted. There have been software problems in the past related to acquiring data after a reboot, so it may not be hardware-related.

Also, you should have ground blocks outside the house near where the satellite coax enters the building. The coax from the satellite dish connects to one side of the block and the coax going into the building connects to the other side. The grounding block is connected to a cold water pipe or directly to the main ground point of the electrical system. That protects from static buildup on the dish or on the coax wiring outside the house.

Brian

Brian -- no, I do not have a ground block and had not really understood what one was before. I have a multiswitch on my roof, so where would the ground block go? On the 4 lines between the dish and multiswitch or the 8 lines between the multiswitch and the house?

Also, one of the lines is diplexed from an antenna. How does this affect things?

As for the problems with the surgender, after troubleshooting it, there is no doubt the culprit is the surgender.

I rebooted with the surgenders in line. It said it could not acquire satellite data for about ten minutes. I removed the surgender without rebooting and as soon as I connected the line into my wall without the surgender, it started acquiring data.

The grounding blocks would go on the 8 lines going into the house. If you could find a way to install the multiswitch inside the house, then you would only need it on the 4 lines going to the multiswitch. The diplexers should not be affected. In my case, I got a better signal using a dedicated coax line from the antenna going to its own grounding block. Also, you can get dual-coax grounding blocks to make it a little easier.

Do you have another surgender that you could test? Also, when you bypass the surgender, do you also bypass a diplexer? I've had a diplexer go bad on me, but that one was outside.

Brian

Nope, the diplexer is not the problem. I probably should have ordered more surgenders. They are cheap enough, I'll order a couple more and see if it resolves the problem.

No way to get the multiswitch inside the house. Can I ground all 8 of the wires from the multiswitch right after they come out of the multiswitch, or do I really need to do it at the point of entry to the house. My wife isn't going to be real excited with blocks and copper wire running up external walls. If I could do it all on the roof where there is a lead to the house's common ground, that would be much easier.

Just to make sure -- do I ground the coax cables to the same ground that I have my dish and my antenna ground to?

Yes, the dish, antenna and coax grounding blocks must go to the same ground point. You can use different ground points if you then run a ground wire between the two ground points. The recommendation is to have the grounding block as close as possible to both the ground point and the point of entry into the house. Having grounding blocks in the first place, no matter where they are located, would probably be the better alternative than not having them at all. I suppose if you are going to install grounding blocks next to the multiswitch, it wouldn't really make much difference whether you grounded the input lines or output lines. This document has a picture and a brief explanation on page 8:

http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/www-solidsignal-com_Winegard_Phase_III_ODU.pdf

Brian

Is the Environmental Potentials EP-2450 (or any of their other products) actually for sale? Their site does not list prices or a "where to buy" link. A google does not find a seller. Rebranded? Vaporware?

Actually, I think it is available but only through EP.

navychop - we have been in business for 6 years in the industrial and commercial sector replacing the legacy TVSS and surge "suppression" devices that don't cut it in the digital era.

call me personally at the number on the website - they won't let me post the website or i'm a spammer - it is what it is.

we have repackaged the patented circuit to make it commercially available, but the consumer market is not an informed market making it difficult for us to compete with the companies that are on their 50th iteration of an MOV, gas tube, or SAD design that has been around forever with little success. these companies are marketing outfits that sell sleek packaging and meaningless interconnected equipment warranties with the burden of proof on the end user and breaker manufacturer feeding their surge protection device - it is what it is.

i can tell from reading through this thread that there is alot of informed people as well, however, i do want to make a few things clear for everyone and would debate it with anyone as well - you will find my 800 number on our website, but when i put the web address in my notes it bounces me for not having enough posts and accuses me of spamming - it is what it is.

here's the deal - high frequency noise is the culprit of all that "ails ya" with regard to your equipment. because of the rectification of AC to DC and the subsequent avalanche of high frequency voltage noise and current pulse (more on current in a moment), that energy will always ground loop back to the source of the event. unless you burn off the ground pollution in resistance, the bombardment to you component level equipment will degrade - either immediately or over time. the result is bit data packet alterations, pcb traces scorched, RAM/ROM wiping, etc - and none of it good. HF noise will penetrate and transcend the power supply core of any digital equipment. when you get frequency (and particularly KHz worth of it) on the DC side of the circuit - you are on a fast train to replace/repair.

MOV's are 30 years old, and do not work. if they did, none of you would be on your X version of the same technology. they hold overvoltage, transient, and surge events within their own capacitance where the metal oxide then breaks down. the clamping rating continually rises which means nothing is protected - but how do you know? you don't. why? because the little red light is still on - here's the rub: the little red light is thermally fused - not voltage or current. why? because a surge "suppression" device with MOV stacks are non-linear in action - that's right - they are HF noise generators, they shunt to ground, and give rise to current spikes that your equipment was never designed to accept - and they pollute the ground loop like nobody's business as the "suppression" act invokes ringing tails that increase in frequency with respect to time - and if there is a voltage component that changes with respect to time, what is that called? that's right - a surge event.

UPS's are good for what they are good for - giving you power to properly turn stuff off. Never let anyone tell you that it is a sine wave correction device - it cannot be by the shear operation of how they operate. they rectify to DC to charge the batteries - the most expensive part of the unit. they rectify back to AC to feed the circuit, which then rectifies to DC to make use of the energy. this is so flawed, i don't know where to start, but let's go back to the initial statement about AC to DC and noise. HF noise will break down the dielectric material in the batteries of a UPS thus, it will not hold a charge, so they tell you to replace it every year or so. Bad design. The "sine wave" that a UPS produces is either very jagged edged, or very wavy in output format because it is a synthetic reproduction of the utility signal. it is a noise generator plain and simple. and it is not a surge device at all. If they stick an MOV in there we have already discussed what they do - so you have a UPS that rectifies power 3 times before it is useful ,producing noise, an MOV shunt, and a dead battery - sign me up and gimme a dozen!

capacitors and inductors dump to ground. when a capacitor accepts a charge it discharges - where to? back on the line? then it is not a power factor correction device. back to ground? yep - 'nuff said. no dissipation only discharge. inductors use the "big iron" approach to dissipation through a series of copper windings - here is what you get after about 3 to 6 months - a nice floor heater. when that core is saturated with HF noise, the available conductive path is pushed to the outer edge of the wire/winding/conductor - this is "skin effect" which causes insulation to break down and shorts to occur. why does this happen? because HF noise will induce eddy current in the inner portion of a conductor taking away the majority of conductive path. when the fundamental 60Hz is forced to the outer edges you produce heat. when you produce heat in a conductor its impedance rises - so you all should get it now.

until you remove high frequency noise from the circuit - you are not protecting anything.

lightning is less than 10% of the annual power quality problems (and it is a $15 billion annual market). the problem with equipment in the digital era is the rectification of AC to DC and the inability of modern equipment to handle frequency on the DC side given their tight tolerances and sensitivity to voltage fluctuation and frequency.

PS - HF noise not only conducts, it radiates...

call me anytime - i'll do my best to speak with each of you or return your calls directly.

Kindest regards,

Doug

Doug...

Welcome to AVS..

I believe you will have no problem posting links after 5 posts...Check the forum rules.

Many posters are reps of their companies and are welcome. I think the rule is don't post prices, but guys like you who participate, inform, and, yes, debate, are really welcome, and add to the general knowlege of us all, especially guys like me whose grasp of theory is limited at best.

Try a couple of more posts--just reply to me if you like--and see if you can post your link.

Check forum rules, and I'm sure if I've mis-stated anything, we'll hear about it.

Great info thanks. Now that I know everything sucks, what type do you suggest for someone that doesn't want to pay a lot.

Well, I can always post a link. :) Is this the site?

http://www.ep2000.com/

BTW, their EP-2200 and EP-2225 provide telephone line and DSL protection, respectively. Neither one requires a ground connection. That answers an earlier question brought up in the thread which was never answered.

Also, the EP-2250 is another choice for coax cable surge protection. It probably will not be compatible with satellite dishes due to the filtering above 1 GHz.

Brian

P.S. I have read that according to the forum rules, company representatives should post the company name (not a link) in their signature. That was in the Audio Area but it probably applies here, also.

is there any reason one should not run a brickwall->UPS->monster power conditioner?

Doug,

Welcome! I haven't posted alot recently but the "Surge Suppression" post linked in my signature has inspired a lot of people away from MOV's toward one better technology.

Obviously you're addressing other concerns, perhaps more serious or at least more frequent than lightning hits and suchlike. If I get time (hah!) I'll check out your site and add you to that post, which many people have found helpful. It's stickied on the list of popular posts (my little claim to fame) so it gets alot of attention.

Glad to see another credible voice taking on the MOV scam industry. Someone once said, "MOV's are great devices, just not for surge protection!" How true.

Doug

Rossco04 - great point! what do you do if you don't want to spend alot on protection? i would start by saying don't spend alot on the equipment, but let's assume you've done that.

i don't bash other products as i am an industrial and commercial entity that is moving into a space that has been dominated by a handful of companies over time - not trying to assume i will win market share by pointing out a few shortcomings of legacy designs on a message board either.

all i'm saying is there are reasons why equipment fails, and without question the high frequency contribution from the process of rectification is paramount to that scenario. there just aren't alotta moving parts on a printed circuit board so someone explain why they fail? short of pouring water on them, or some other obvious operational error - why do they degrade from simple day to day on/off duty cycles?

what we have seen clearly is a lot of marketing companies that do not innovate much, repackaging a tried and untrue solution that has not produced. if the "power protection" devices listed at length around here worked, home entertainment product companies would be starving and the prices would be more in line with reality. however, they don't work, and people are replacing degraded equipment and "upgrading" as a result. this is not a knock on these marketing companies, but it has not proven to be an advancement in engineering or beneficial beyond aesthetics.

if you are on a limited budget, i would suggest a device that installs at the load center, isolates the home from surrounding contribution, and becomes the path of least resistance when introduced to the circuit - thereby removing the anomalies from the system before they cycle. i know a company that makes such a device ;-) so feel free to give me a call... our Residential unit costs "X" and i'm interested in getting some feedback from an informed user community so call me and let's see what we can work out.

i am treating this as a test market and info exchange - i already know the results, but i need to invest in the educated niche before i'll have any impact in the mass market. we are probably not for everybody. we will always be on the high end of the market - but that is where a better design belongs.

thank you to those that have contacted me already - that was fast! feel free to encourage others on the board to call me - you will see that is painless and worth your time. As always, i'll do my best to answer your call directly, or return it promptly.

Thanks,

Doug

bkzoller - the cable unit is good for both cable and satellite (i use my unit and i have DirecTV)... the components are frequency tuned for the exact reason you mention.

Same as the difference in tuning for telephony and DSL...

again - it was real nice speaking with some of you... thanks for calling!

ok - i'm reading alot about the brickwall and even spoke with someone today who asked a question about it so while we were on the phone we pulled up the website and i said i would give my interpretation...

so, fwiw, here are some questions that must be asked considering the limited information on how it works... by the way - i did not see, nor did i look for patent numbers so i cannot verify anything they claim (it could have been there, but i did not look too hard)

it claims to not shunt to ground, and it claims to absorb. these are interesting claims as my company makes the same claim, so i have to challenge the functionality vs. marketing that is going on here - potentially.

in looking at the diagram of the circuit of a brickwall unit the device is very similar to an MOV in design - it is a stack. however, it is not a stack of MOV's so therefore - they can claim that they are not a shunt device. they are, however, a stack of capacitors - hmmmmmm - 5 of them! they look series connected as well...

now, since they are not an MOV and claim not to shunt what's happenin'? a capacitor could be loosely defined as absorbative - to the lay person. a capacitor will "absorb" a charge. it will, however, immediately discharge - so where's the discharge go? according to the circuit diagram - every capacitor in series dumps to NEUTRAL - or the common connection between your entire distribution system. the return path for current being the neutral in a wye system is bonded (or should be) at the panel.

so - it absorbs (capacitor will accept a charge as designed, but not a clear definition of what one would consider absorption), but it discharges - no mention of that. it does not shunt to ground (but all of the capacitor discharges are dumped on the neutral return path). alas, marketing at it's finest!

the question would be - is there a component that was not shown in the drawing that addresses the discharge of 5 stacked capacitors? where does the energy go? it doesn't disappear - to suggest as much is insulting. so what happens? or is this a marketing effort to dance around the true functionality of the device? by the way - each capacitor has a limitation on the charge it will accept over time. since the path is in series, this gives rise to resonance between capacitors that are saturated with both charge and HF noise - the result is "ringing tails" of HF noise on the neutral.

i told the person on the phone with me that this is a microcosm of what utility companies do for industrial customers at the 13,200VAC to 4,160VAC substation transformer to correct power factor - throw in a bank of capacitors. utility company doesn't care if the dump goes to ground on their side of the meter because more often than not - they use ground as a neutral return path - problem solved.

problems solved on the utility's side of the meter rarely means your problems have been solved on your side.

so here's the hidden gem - the brickwall will work for 4 to 6 months in an average home (don't hold me to that, it's a guestimate). why? because the 5 capacitors in series will act as an absorption component until saturated with high frequency noise. when the hf noise breaks down the dielectric material in the capacitors - it will no longer hold a charge thus making it a noise generating heating element. or a dead battery after you unplug it. similar to why UPS's need their batteries replaced more often than is desireable. they have done a nice job with the design in that equipment does not stay powered when it is unplugged (at least i don't think it does) because a capacitor will discharge for a considerable period of time post de-energization - never touch a capacitor after disconnection (the preceding was a public service announcement).

we see the same thing happen at industrial facilities when they install "isolation" transformers - they work fine until the core is saturated. when HF noise crowds the core of a conductor forcing the fundamental 60Hz signal to the outer edges - you get heat, or a floor heater in this instance... with heat on a conductor, impedance rises, rising impedance means voltage drop with means current rise which means equipment is working overtime to get power... so it fails. in the case of the brickwall all of the AC HF subject matter applies as it gets hit before the AC to DC rectification and the backfeed from any power supply plugged into it...

i am sure there is a logical reason for all of this, but i'd like to hear it from a brickwall guru as i'm going off of a 5 minute examination of their circuit - clearly i could have missed something - but that is my .02 worth.

i was disappointed to see that their claim for not shunting to ground was hiding behind a capacitor dump to neutral - the lay person deserves an explanation and the informed people on this board should get the truth as well...

Doug,

Don't your products use MOV's? Do you have a schematic showing what is inside the EP-2050 and EP-2450? What makes your product better than a brickwall? I'm sure everyone else would like to know.

Thanks,
Robert

Doug-

Can you comment on this parallel device: http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/faq/index.html

Kal

Robert - you are correct, we have an MOV in our circuit (believe i've mentioned this in the past so let me make the distinction)...

when an MOV is used as a clamping/shunt device it stores energy from the surge event within its own capacitance while "suppressing" to ground. this causes heat to build up in the metal oxide holding the charge. the result of this action is a degrading component which gives rise to higher subsequent clamping "protection". additionally, the MOV becomes non-linear with current rising (and rising quick) as voltage drops. this action causes current to pulse at high frequency making it a noise generator. finally, an MOV offers no correction. by this i mean that the "let through" voltage that meets the criteria for being less than the clamping capability of the MOV at a given time is still wrought with all of the transient and HF noise that was riding the initial surge that caused the clamp. that HF noise doesn't disappear simply because you clamped (and who knows at what voltage value the MOV reacted - there's no way to know).

we employ an MOV for its sole redeeming value - an instantaneous drop in impedance when a transient or surge event appears on the line. that is the extent of our use of an MOV - it's nothing more than a switch to draw the fast acting event into our unit. we then cycle the energy through a patented crystalline circuit, thereby slowing the event down and spreading it out over time through a spectrum multiplier. whatever residual energy remains is burnt off as resistive heat within the unit where the circuit is encapsulated in a thermal inductive epoxy - not shunt to ground, neutral or back out the voltage lines. this eliminates the return path to your equipment which 90% of the time created the event through the rectification of AC to DC, thus chopping up the sine wave producing reactive power at high frequency...

big difference Robert - i hope i was a little clearer this go 'round... contact me at your convenience if you need more information...

by the way - our patents are listed on our literature (brickwall may be as well, i cannot be sure as i didn't look real hard for them) - it is physics, electrical engineering, and science at a level i cannot begin to understand - but it is all there at the patent website (can't publish, or i am a spammer - it is what it is)

i'll make the point again - the brickwall may be a fine product, i don't know and have never seen one. i'm going off of the diagram they produced on their website and making an observation. clearly it would never cut it in the automotive industry, but that is not the market it's attempting to serve. this doesn't mean it is without fault or perfect, it just isn't a solution that lends itself to protection over time for sensitive electronics - capacitance, utilization of neutral as a residual dump, no waveform correction or high frequency component - all these things add up to reactive power causing heat in conductors. at this point it becomes a financial decision - do you spend $300 dollars to protect your 5 figure investment?

hidden gem - at a particular frequency, did you know a capacitor will become an inductor and vice versa? critical elements to long term health and care of printed circuit board level components...

Kal,

reading the FAQ's was interesting - here's my notes/comments fwiw:

1. they say "ideally if you could plug your equipment into the utility transformer" they'd work better/longer - not true! there is not isolation or filtering at a utility transformer - in fact it is part of the return path for current back to the utility. it is saturated with high frequency noise because it receives contribution from the entire community and their increasing volume of non-linear loads using rectified power - fact.

*one of the top line item expenditures annually for utility companies is the repair or replacement of residential step down transformers - why? see above...

2. they say "rgpc's parallel inductor removes AC line noise" - there is some truth, but not the whole truth and nothing but the truth here. the use of inductors is common practice when dealing with low order harmonics (3rd, 5th, and 7th). my gut tells me this is what they are refering to as they mention switch mode power supplies at length - a big contributor to harmonics. the problem is low order harmonics do not cause heat - they said it themselves when they mentioned that the "noise" as they define it, is "potentially high in amplitude" - that's the give away. harmonics are high in amplitude - that's key because with sufficient amplitude the "noise" will reflect back to the source - HF noise cycles the ground loop back to the source of the event, or the point of rectification.

3. they say " the custom inductor absorbs this noise" - well, ok, but where does the energy go? it doesn't disappear. did they change it from electrical to magnetic to heat? not much explanation, but i'm not an expert in their technology - that question should be asked. if the answer is we "store it in the inductor" then run - fast - from this product, its life span is less than 6 months as it is a core that will get saturated and will fail, not because i say so, but because of the shear laws of physics.

they do say alot of good things about impedance, heat in conductors, and the virtues of parallel connection - i would support most of what they say here.

just got to the part about it being a choke fly wheel device - couple of issues: 1. a fly wheel implies moving parts - while i don't see any, they may be doing something with a circuit board, we do this so it is perfectly feasible. 2. a choke implies a limited spectrum - i'm guessing that they handle up to a certain harmonic range (49th is typical - but i didn't see any note of this)

and then they make mention of capacitance which should be their to counter the inductance. however - this looks suspiciously familiar to the brickwall approach with capacitance - you have to ask the question - where does the energy go? if current through the magnetic core creates a magnetic field to energize - the claim they make that it "collapses" when the device draws current is flawed - a energizing and collapsing magnetic field is a pulse noise generator.

and ding, ding, ding - we have a winner - just got to the part about the unit being 20 pounds and filled with copper windings. i would not recommend this product based on longevity of service. it is a big core with hundreds of feet of copper windings. not to rehash what i've been spouting about all along, but HF noise will crowd the core of those windings and render the thing useless - as the heat produced on the outer edges of the windings will never be off set by the capacitive or inductive circuit - additionally, the capacitor will die a short death when the dielectric material breaks down from - yep - HF noise/heat.

overall this looks like a nice product in my estimation. they are using a scaled down version of capacitor banks for power factor correction and threw a category A, B, and C MOV in the circuit for staged surge protection.

look, again, it is what it is... it may work for anyone, and i have never tested or used it, so to say it doesn't work is unsubstantiated. my point is that there are questions i would ask of the manufacturer based on their claims - i would suspect everyone would do the same and i'd be interested in learning about what those answers were.

in my experience, the heavier the unit, the less potent the technology as they rely on big copper to absorb and dissipate - this has been going on forever. it's not innovative. the ultimate test, though, are the satisfied customers - and they appear to have many.

so, kudos to RGPC company, and i wish them all the success - this is not an easy business, and proving what we do vs. what they do is daunting at the consumer level considering how little dollars we are talking about. they are carving themselves a niche, as are we. my opinion is that we have a superior design - unless someone wants to buy a bunch of these things and an O-scope - we can just debate on the forum boards... guess that is what we're all here for.

fwiw - if i were to buy a unit that was not made by EP (and i wouldn't - hahahaha - shameless plug!) i would go with the RGPC over the brickwall by shear design concept. i cannot speak to quality or functionality, but based on my limited research - that is what i'd do.

My electrician is very impressed with a system that he uses in commercial applications, and is installing in our home. It is the RediVolt System (http://www.redivoltmfg.com/main/default.asp).

I have had discussions with the manufacturer, about their product, and have asked them to join in on this discussion for another point of view. Hopefully they will have the time to do so.

Doug,

Does EP make a unit that mounts outside and is protected against the elements? My fuse box is located on the side of the house, it's an old house.

Seems to be a lot of talk about transients, something we really can't sense without instruments, but not about removing power when there are major voltage excursions, both high and low.

Right after we moved into a new development, one afternoon a huge construction pump was running 4 houses down. I have a relatively inexpensive Panamax unit and the LED line monitors were swinging back and forth in syncopation with the pump. You could hear it, you could see it. The unit had already removed power from my a/v equipment before I got over there to switch everything off. Obviously, this pump was pulling some kind of load.

The Patent holder for Series Mode Surge Protection is ZeroSurge.

Somebody contacted Brickwall, and they said that they simply cloned ZeroSurge's product design.

I think Brickwall is more poplular simply because it has been available online longer.

Other SM devices are produced by Surgex, Adcom, and Furman; they add other features to them, possibly a slightly different design, also.

BTW, Price-Wheeler (Brickwall) has a ten year warranty on the units. The manual says, after ten years, the unit should be serviced.

Doug,

Could you PM me a price list of your residential products?

Thanks,
Robert

Same for me.

to all interested - if the product ends with "-Volt" run - Redi-Volt, Stedi-Volt, Agri-Volt, Green-Volt, blah, blah, blah... it is the epitome of garbage and i will be happy to speak personally with any electrician or electrical engineer that recommends this product type.

Redi-Volt in particular is the cheapest bunch of junk, they sell "energy savings" which is a crock, there are more burn victims that have dealt with this product line than any i've encountered.

this is a public service announcement. i would make myself available to debate this with anyone from any company rep'ing it. by the way - to sell this stuff you buy franchise rights - upwards of $50K is my understanding. the whole thing is a stack of MOV's worth about $7.00 to manufacture - it's so hokey and makes it difficult on the reputable manufacturers to differentiate technology from the world of "Oz" where MOV's equate to 15% savings on your utility bill.

my opinion and i can support it anytime if someone pushing this garbage wants to do so...

I recently purchased a Brickwall surge protector (specifically, the PW8R15AUD). I have not unpacked it yet because I was saving it to use in a new house that I'll be moving into. After reading some of the comments about it (most notably post #654 from djoseph52) I am having some second thoughts about it. My question is, does anyone else have this particular unit and if so, how is it performing?

Also, does anyone know Brickwall's return policy and whether I would just be able to return it if I choose to go a differrent direction?

Finally, I have emailed Brickwall regarding this thread and asked them to respond to it. I have yet to receive a reply but will post if I do.

Originally posted by TrojanCain
I recently purchased a Brickwall surge protector (specifically, the PW8R15AUD). I have not unpacked it yet because I was saving it to use in a new house that I'll be moving into. After reading some of the comments about it (most notably post #654 from djoseph52) I am having some second thoughts about it. My question is, does anyone else have this particular unit and if so, how is it performing?

Also, does anyone know Brickwall's return policy and whether I would just be able to return it if I choose to go a differrent direction?

Finally, I have emailed Brickwall regarding this thread and asked them to respond to it. I have yet to receive a reply but will post if I do.

While I would be the first to admit power condiitoners can be very useful and they vary a lot in their design depending on manufacturer...how many folks can say in their own experience, that electronics was damaged because they never had adequate protection? Putting lightning aside, for sake of argument.
I have serious reservations about spending gobs of money on premium protection considering the odds that power line surges or spikes will take it out. If you live in a fairly modern home, with good wiring, and are not sitting on the edge of a power grid, maybe a neighborhood close to condemnation because it's in a flight path, etc. what are the odds of something terrible happening because of power problems?
I've been dabbling in TVs, electronics, hifi, and computers for a good 30 years and have yet have something happen that I could attribute to 'bad power'.
I really think it is a good money making machine, the same one that says because I spend so many dollars on a piece of electronics all the more reason I should spend 1000 bucks on a TV stand, or 2000 on a power conditioner. I love when people tell me what I need.
Maybe something will happen in my experience to change my mind. But as a test engineer (ret.) I can tell you 'good electronics' is better and more robust than you might think.
Simple solutions like UPS for some TVs, PVRs and computers is a good thing, along with a fair amount of noise suppression. I have seen as many problems with modem and coax signal lines run through noise supression circuits as I have any help they may offer. Good grounding for all signal lines coming into your home is essential, that's basic.
Power removal systems with basic built-in suppression might well spare equipment from sudden fluctuations, etc. can also be very useful, and I have seen that in action. But those do not require a 2nd mortgage.

Now of course, there will be the audiophiles who will argue their muisc rises out of the dark with a virtually non-existant noise floor thanks to their Acme Power City conditioner. Similar claims will be made by videophiles.

I can't refute perceptions. Whatever works for you, use it.

how many folks can say in their own experience, that electronics was damaged because they never had adequate protection?
I can. Transformer on the power pole outside the house blew up. Literally. Scared the f--- out of the cats and fried the circuit board in the brand new kitchen range. Thanks to my Surgex the stereo was unharmed, even though it was playing at the time.

Putting lightning aside, for sake of argument. Why would you put lightning aside? Lightning's kind of dangerous.

Everyone has to make this decision for themself of course. I have $40K+ worth of gear in my stereo/HT rack. A couple hundred bucks for reliable surge protection is a very tiny drop in that bucket. YMMV.

Originally posted by videoaddikt
While I would be the first to admit power condiitoners can be very useful and they vary a lot in their design depending on manufacturer...how many folks can say in their own experience, that electronics was damaged because they never had adequate protection? Putting lightning aside, for sake of argument.
I have serious reservations about spending gobs of money on premium protection considering the odds that power line surges or spikes will take it out. If you live in a fairly modern home, with good wiring, and are not sitting on the edge of a power grid, maybe a neighborhood close to condemnation because it's in a flight path, etc. what are the odds of something terrible happening because of power problems?

Interesting reading. I live in Chicago and while in my apartment several years ago I was hit with a surge. I had a television and cable box plugged directly into the wall. The cable box produced a loud POP and was fried. The Sony 27" CRT that was plugged into the wall had no problem at all. It is still in use. I didn't choose to tempt fate by keeping it plugged in to the outlet directly, but I did think it was interesting.

I chose to purchase the Brickwall after reading through this thread (but before the post by djoseph52 questioning the design of their surge protector) and the 10 year warranty that comes with it does put me at greater ease. Nonetheless, if it is a faulty design and there is something better I would like to know it. As others have said, if one has thousands of dollars invested in a home theater then adding a few hundred for good surge protection doesn't seem like a lot.

I think the issue comes down to what is effective and what is frivilous. There are some pretty good units in the $200 range (and less) and I don't think that's outlandish. On the other hand, there are the $500+ units that are nothing more than "audiophile jewelry" but they sell. What do you need power regeneration for in a home and is a digital line voltage readout really useful? Hell, there are $100+ power cables, and people buy them!

Paul

Originally posted by TrojanCain
Interesting reading. I live in Chicago and while in my apartment several years ago I was hit with a surge. I had a television and cable box plugged directly into the wall. The cable box produced a loud POP and was fried. The Sony 27" CRT that was plugged into the wall had no problem at all. It is still in use. I didn't choose to tempt fate by keeping it plugged in to the outlet directly, but I did think it was interesting.

I chose to purchase the Brickwall after reading through this thread (but before the post by djoseph52 questioning the design of their surge protector) and the 10 year warranty that comes with it does put me at greater ease. Nonetheless, if it is a faulty design and there is something better I would like to know it. As others have said, if one has thousands of dollars invested in a home theater then adding a few hundred for good surge protection doesn't seem like a lot.

Of course I doubt anyone would advocate NOT having surge protection. I have such protection on many things at home from the airpump for our Select Comfort bed, to our treadmill. I am not convinced that a lot of money is necessary for adequate protection. Of course, living in California, maybe I have had the luxury of having fewer weather or other external forces responsible for severe surges.
And I would agree on maybe a few hundred dollars, at most. But often, the more complex systems cost more due to greater complexity which ironically, is sometimes in conflict with greater reliability.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
I can. Transformer on the power pole outside the house blew up. Literally. Scared the f--- out of the cats and fried the circuit board in the brand new kitchen range. Thanks to my Surgex the stereo was unharmed, even though it was playing at the time.

Why would you put lightning aside? Lightning's kind of dangerous.



I was putting lightning aside, because any good system should offer lightning protection, as a minimum. I was looking at what other advantages premium protection is buying you for more dollars.

Originally posted by TrojanCain
snip...
I chose to purchase the Brickwall after reading through this thread (but before the post by djoseph52 questioning the design of their surge protector) and the 10 year warranty that comes with it does put me at greater ease. Nonetheless, if it is a faulty design and there is something better I would like to know it. As others have said, if one has thousands of dollars invested in a home theater then adding a few hundred for good surge protection doesn't seem like a lot.

I wouldn't necesarily go by what is shown on the website. Those are usually put up by marketing weenies and can be nothing more than fluff. The funny thing is, I found the some of the same pics on Brickwall and Zerosurge, the inventor of the technology (IIRC). A cold call into a company is not necessily going to get you in touch with the designers and most likely it will be someone in marketing. Quite frankly, I found some of Mr. Josephs explanations a bit confusing and vague and I'm an EE, but I don't think that says anything about his products.

Paul

Originally posted by paulbf1
I wouldn't necesarily go by what is shown on the website. Those are usually put up by marketing weenies and can be nothing more than fluff. The funny thing is, I found the some of the same pics on Brickwall and Zerosurge, the inventor of the technology (IIRC). A cold call into a company is not necessily going to get you in touch with the designers and most likely it will be someone in marketing. Quite frankly, I found some of Mr. Josephs explanations a bit confusing and vague and I'm an EE, but I don't think that says anything about his products.

Paul

As a fellow engineer who has had the task selecting equipment based on specifications, I can tell you, unless you have it in your own hands to test it for your own application, you will never know what it really does. I am sure I am not telling you anything new.

in connection with videoaddikt's take that bad power is not the problem from his perspective - i would agree 100%.

the fact of the matter is that power from the utility is clean by and large. cleanest sine wave you will see in fact. why?

because generated AC is a science at the utility level. they know what they are doing.

so the question becomes why do "robust electronics" have a shelf life? why do components with no moving parts go bad? ever?

the fact is that the modern home is one big non-linear load. the fact is that 99% of anything you plug into the wall runs on DC. the fact is that if you rectify AC to DC you generate reactive power at high frequency that cycles the ground loop in search of a low impedance path. the fact is that if you do not remove such reactive power from the distribution system, it will bombard your equipment at the component level.

it does not surprise me at all to hear people say they have never had a problem - often times we look past problems related to downtime because it is fairly inexpensive (in many cases) to fix/replace a board.

what i'm suggesting is there is no reason for an $8K dollar monitor to go bad. there is no reason for Maytag to come to my house and replace the board in the "brains" of my expensive washing machine. i shouldn't have to replace my satellite receiver because it "popped".

when system propogated reactive power travels and cycles it interacts itself - the analogy being dropping a pebble in the bucket of water. as the current gets further away from the source of the event it increases in frequency and lessens in amplitude. as it crashes to the edge of the bucket, it disperses and interacts with lagging current at high frequency that follows toward the edge itself. then frequency is interacting against frequency - that's how we get MHz range noise.

now - was any of your equipment designed to receive that signal? no. is there any question that HF noise produces heat by crowding the core of a conductor? no. so is there any doubt why modern electronics with crammed raceways and tighter tolerances are more susceptible than legacy equipment that was 10X in size? no.

you want to rely on ground as the great sinkhole where power goes to disappear? fine - my only suggestion is wear your rubber gloves when touching that ground electrode - it's as hot as any other conductor in the loop.

some things are debatable such as the merits of one technology vs. another - the laws of physics will always pertain. power, like water, will always take the path of least resistance. in the digital era of the modern home - that would be anything plugged into the wall. the price you choose to put on the value of interconnected equipment is directly proportional to the amount of money you should spend to protect said equipment.

one product will never fit the bill for everyone. our company targets the high end of the market for purposes of informed buyers wanting to invest in technology rather than "spend" on "surge suppression" - there is a very big difference. that is why we will never be the market share leader - that is not the goal. making ridiculous "max surge current" claims, offering baseless "connected equipment warranties", and other bogus promotions are not what high end equipment is about. it is about a fair price for an innovative advancement in engineering and the specific group that will take great interest in that advancement will benefit from the operational advantages of sound quality, video quality, and equipment longevity with a minimum of repeat investment in similar equipment.

Doug

certainly not trying to confuse anyone. i am not an EE, and it has taken some time to thoroughly understand what our R&D group has designed. it took even longer to figure out how and why we differ from other technology.

as i've mentioned in the past - i welcome the conversation as best i can, and if any of you folks i've spoken with this week have a chance - let everyone know that it is a pleasant experience.

rather than mention my statements are vague - please let me know what i said that you might need clarification on, and i would be happy to try another route...

thanks!

videoaddikt - i'm not sure what you meant by having the devices in your hands as a means to understanding the value of the equipment. i can tell you that most of our customers decide to use our equipment more often than not by a third party independent study of our technology vs. the other two leading devices in the market - and the phone number of the administrator of the third party test.

most people are going to read the packaging, compare the numbers (whatever they mean), and buy on price. the majority of the people on this site look to be in search of better information than just what the retailer can give them - kudos to them for going the extra step.

what do you recommend outside of a beefed up grounding grid? i would be interested in reading your thoughts.

thanks,

Doug

Having worked mostly in the design and testing of non-consumer electronics, I can not tell you that most consumer goods are designed with all the protection needed against complex and spurious conditions that have little to do with line-in fluctuations. Which, by the way, do exist, even if they are not common, and most often have nothing to do with what is happening at 'Hoover Dam', but rather, as was implied, really have to do with the load represented at your local environment.
It always gets down to cost. How much money is spent not only on designs, which by today's standard are really cookie-cutter for most electronics, but by the selection of components.
Besides the irony I pointed out about complexity and reliablitiy, there is also the irony that the cheaper electronics could often benefit more from better protection. Somewhere in the middle, I suspect, is the answer for most of us.

Don't misunderstand me, Doug. I am questioning as much as offering some perspective here but on a much more global level. I am hardly famililar enough with your product(s) to criticize it.
What I am saying, is that we all need a clear understanding of the reason for power products and have realistic expectations of what they can and can not do.
Of course, it would not be practical to buy your product and spend countless hours testing it, to see if it lives up to it's claims. Obviously, that's been done to the satisfaction of most users. I am here to learn as most of us are I think, as well as offer some suggestions which I hope are helpful or at least provide a different perspective.
Your explanations have stirred my interest for the most part. It does make me want to look further into the subject matter which I have not visited for some time.

Originally posted by videoaddikt

I have serious reservations about spending gobs of money on premium protection considering the odds that power line surges or spikes will take it out. If you live in a fairly modern home, with good wiring, and are not sitting on the edge of a power grid, maybe a neighborhood close to condemnation because it's in a flight path, etc. what are the odds of something terrible happening because of power problems?

N

To me the issue is not how likely a destructive power event will occur it's how much I've invested in my electronics equipment, i.e., how much I have to lose. In the past my electronics have been mostly moderately priced. Last summer I purchased a 50 inch HiDef TV and decided that it was time I thought seriously about power protection because I'd be risking more money. I also took into consideration that about 8 to 10 years ago a lightening strike to my apartment building caused my modem to die altho nothing else was damaged. I live on the top floor of a high rise. I purchased the Brickwall unit and think that I'll buy a second one when I purchase my next computer later this year.

By the way, I think Brickwalls are reasonably priced, quality units. Although I am only basing that on what others have told me, and what I've read on the website, as well as a couple of reviews.

i am not asking you as a challenge to your understanding of the market and what needs to be done. obviously, you get it. what i'm after is your perspective which i think you gave me with the "somewhere in the middle" comment.

all is good - i am not judge or jury either (haven't heard of most of the products mentioned and as a 5 year old company, many have not ever heard of us - especially since this is a new market to us) i only ask the questions based on limited research in hopes of an explanation/discussion/etc...

this kind of dialog helps the consumer understand that they need to dig deeper than just the packaging or signage at BestBuy... people either get it, or they get really confused and ask more questions - both are good paths to take considering the potential investment.

my position on the whole thing is two fold: 1) until you remove the self inflicted anomalies that rectified power produces in the modern home - you haven't protected anything 2) if you don't remove HF noise, the heat and introduction of frequency to the DC side of equipment will cause premature failure of components.

we happen to do this without shunting to ground so i find this the best approach - i always look at other solutions and as you have seen in my posts - other products do similar things differently and i add my .02 worth...

i look forward to reading your posts!

Thanks,

Doug

Since I said I would respond if Brickwall contacted me, I feel I should. A representative from Brickwall emailed me back, answering my questions to my satisfaction. Anyone with questions about their products and/or technology should email them directly, they are very good about replying (even for the most basic/ignorant questions, of which I asked many!).

Originally posted by djoseph52


this kind of dialog helps the consumer understand that they need to dig deeper than just the packaging or signage at BestBuy... people either get it, or they get really confused and ask more questions - both are good paths to take considering the potential investment.

my position on the whole thing is two fold: 1) until you remove the self inflicted anomalies that rectified power produces in the modern home - you haven't protected anything 2) if you don't remove HF noise, the heat and introduction of frequency to the DC side of equipment will cause premature failure of components.


Thanks,

Doug

We can't stop asking questions and just accept things, which is good for all concerned. I appreciate you have maintained more than a modicum of objectivitiy while still having a lot of confidence in your product to meet the need.
It's when we stop being flexible or open-minded that we encounter the kind of decision making that is too limited in scope.
The most successful products are the ones that have planned for change to meet demands of the future. With the ever-changing face of technology, the unwillingness to do that can be disasterous. If you are Heinz just producing ketchup, you only have to be consistent... :)

good point... and i am glad you recognize my objectivity, i'm not an expert on any one's product but my own, so i ask the questions.

for instance - i find the RGPC device to be a fairly decent product given its scaled down version of a line reactor - that could be adequate in the home entertainment space, albeit for a limited time considering it doesn't address HF noise, but nonetheless, my opinion won't effect their sales on iota - nor should it. my guess is they have sold a heckuva lot more of their product in this market than i have (to date). but bashing it for the sake of bashing it doesn't accomplish anything, there are too many satisfied customers to imply it just won't work. i only know why it won't work over the long haul, and to some, that matters...

tryin' to keep it real on my end and offer some advice if asked.

fyi - i put these comments out here as a result of answering PM's that come my way asking for similar things. rather than answering each individual PM, i just post a message...

if someone asks, i'll give my opinion, that doesn't make another product better or worse, it's just my opinion based on our R&D...

Thanks,

Doug

djoseph52,

I would like to know your opinions regarding the Environmental Potentials EP-2450 and the Exact Power EP15A?

Thanks!

Doug Deacon,

Same question... what is your opinion regarding the Environmental Potentials EP-2450 and the Exact Power EP15A?

Thanks!

my first impressions of the device are very positive. i went to the website and looked at the circuit and there are a couple of things that i would question so i'll list it here.

as i've stated before, HF noise is the culprit. in most of our industrial 480V applications, it is common practice to employ "isolation" transformers, inductors, capacitors, and resistors to dissipate the anomalies that are always present on the line due to the constant rectification of AC to DC - in a plant or facility this is done on a big scale. this looks like an effort to scale that process down to a home theater application. they do have a patented circuit according to the website, and i did not look for the patent number, but did not see it anywhere (i'm sure it's there if you look hard enough). for an industrial version of this device go to a company called Liebert's website.

here's the issue from my perspective, they employ the use of an amplifier and transformer to correct the sine wave. when HF noise is introduced into the equation on the line, it will saturate the core of a transformer - much faster in a miniature device than it will in say a 277/480 wye stepped down to 120/208 wye (three phase example). when the winding conductors are crowded at the core, they produce heat, which reduces the efficiency of the device and increases the impedance of the device causing equipment to work harder to draw the current they need to operate. amplifying HF noise in an effort to regulate voltage can't be a good thing, and when amplifying (refers to current) you experience a voltage drop which is why a "boost" transformer in the circuit is required to "regulate" or induce a higher voltage where the sag may occur. it also appears they make the claim to reduce noise - and they do so through correcting the waveform which cannot be accomplished at the high speeds of KHz level voltage anomalies riding the sine wave with a small transformer. my guess is HF noise would render this equipment ineffective over time considering there is no addressing the HF noise component in the form of resistive heat burn off. they may have another way of accomplishing this, and i would be real interested in finding out how, but the "how it works" section did not elaborate on what i personally view to be the biggest impact on why modern digital equipment degrades.

one other point - modern electronics makes use of its fair share of capacitors and inductors, why? because they address the "blips" and fluctuations in the lab that can adversely affect the operation of the device. modern electronic devices "hold a charge" for "ride through" purposes. a good example would be our extensive work on dairy farms - a long story made short: dairy cows react negatively to the effects of conducted and radiated HF noise which comes from the constant AC to DC rectification of modern milking apparatus, electronic lighting systems, and disparate potentials throughout the grounding grid allowing HF current to travel to points of low impedance - or places where the cows make contact. getting back to why this is a good example - when we "test" the farms with our Frequency Analysis equipment, we shut down the farm disconnecting it from the utility. with nothing running it is not uncommon at all to find voltage and current, albeit at low levels, still in motion. this is because of the capacitive discharge that all of the equipment devices mentioned above hold after the loss of power.

as i've stated before, utility power is not the problem - it's as clean as it gets. yes, there is load shedding, grid switching, and peak usage sags - no question (worse in some areas, not even detectable in others). your equipment does not degrade from the rapid loss of power - what does impart horrific damage to your HT equipment is the sudden re-introduction of power - so maybe a voltage regulator has some value to you at that point. my position would be: 1) absorb and dissipate HF transient and surges before they travel to any load (including a small "buck" or "boost" transformer and 2) eliminate the heating component of HF noise that will permeate any transformer or inverter (power supply) and apply frequency to the DC side of any circuit - that's why things fail - not sags. sags are nowhere near as devastating as the inrush signal of restored energy.

last comment: waveform correction through the cancellation of energy above or below the sinewave is a proven ineffective solution. this is the essence of a line reactor. it may work for an overvoltage or sag which is a slower moving event of greater magnitude in contrast to extremely rapid, transient "hash" riding the sinewave in the KHz range of slight magnitude. addressing the higher magnitude events will probably protect you from instantaneous catastrophic failure (MOV's of all things will do that, and their claim to a staged surge protection method alludes to as much) in which case i would recommend a panel/loadcenter mounted EP-2000, but it will not protect you from the all day, every day presence of HF noise which our equipment does.

again - this is based on a very brief examination of their website. there could be so much more there than i reviewed so take that into account if you read my thoughts. all in all - it looks to be solid technology, but there are a few questions that should be asked prior to investing in my humble opinion - and i did not review any pricing as a comparison on the surface appears to be apples and oranges...

quick edit - their warranty is 3 years and limited... ours is 5 years and unconditional fyi...

kindest regards,

djoseph52 (Doug)

Originally posted by djoseph52
as i've mentioned in the past - i welcome the conversation as best i can, and if any of you folks i've spoken with this week have a chance - let everyone know that it is a pleasant experience.
I talked to Doug recently, and he will answer and clarify whatever questions you have, regarding your equipment and their power needs.

Based on posts by djoseph52, I e-mailed Brick Wall...

--------------- I asked:

"It claims to not shunt to ground, and it claims to absorb... Is there a component that was not shown in the drawing that addresses the discharge of 5 stacked capacitors? Where does the energy go?

Did you change it from electrical to magnetic to heat? Do you store it in the inductor?"

--------------- They replied with:

"Unfortunately the diagram on our website is outdated. We only use 3 capacitors at the locations of C2, C4 & C5. You can delete C1 & C3. This will also help in that we do not use 5 stacked capacitors.

The drawing is a simplified version of how series mode works. There are individual resistors (not shown in diagram) across the capacitors that bleed off the surge energy in milliseconds. Surge energy rushes in at 50 microseconds. Brickwall units slowly discharge this energy in milliseconds (we discharge the surge 1000 times slower) onto the neutral wire. This is why we do not cause ground contamination.

Our engineers have stated to me that the most surge energy you can encounter is 90 Joules which is 90W per second. It is like flicking on a 90W light bulb for 1 second.

I hope this has been of assistance and please feel free to contact us."


djoseph52 and/or others: What are your thoughts on this new info?

admin - i am traveling this week with limited web access, but will be happy to share my thoughts on the response. please give me until the end of the week when i get back to the office.

thanks, and have a good week!

Doug

Because you are a manufacture and in the business I will ask you to please not bash competing products. Manufactures who participate on this board do so by answering questions to their product and in no mention or get into debates with their competitors products. Regardless of your beliefs this is a subjective topic and everyone is entitled to their believes and choice of product. To read all other designs are junk and of course yours is the only one offering results is expected seeing as your in the business. If you have something positive to contribute please do so but please do not bash other products.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Doug

Because you are a manufacture and in the business I will ask you to please not bash competing products. Manufactures who participate on this board do so by answering questions to their product and in no mention or get into debates with their competitors products. Regardless of your beliefs this is a subjective topic and everyone is entitled to their believes and choice of product. To read all other designs are junk and of course yours is the only one offering results is expected seeing as your in the business. If you have something positive to contribute please do so but please do not bash other products.

Thank you.

With all due respect, admin..I am not sure I ever read anything Doug posted that would be considered bashing.
I think we all have enough intelligence whether to accept or reject anything Doug, or anyone for that matter, has posted.
It seems he always starts his posts with "in my perspective".. or similar phrases, and while is enthusiastic about his products, and eager to show where it is superior, does not seem to trash competitors.

Personally, I don't raise manufacturers above anyone else on the board. And I have encountered examples of indifference, boasting, and narrow-mindedness from other posters I would consider much more offensive than anything posted by Doug or other mfr. reps., and they never seem to raise an eyebrow.

This is just MY perspective... :)

Originally posted by djoseph52
to all interested - if the product ends with "-Volt" run - Redi-Volt, Stedi-Volt, Agri-Volt, Green-Volt, blah, blah, blah... it is the epitome of garbage and i will be happy to speak personally with any electrician or electrical engineer that recommends this product type.

Redi-Volt in particular is the cheapest bunch of junk, they sell "energy savings" which is a crock, there are more burn victims that have dealt with this product line than any i've encountered.

this is a public service announcement. i would make myself available to debate this with anyone from any company rep'ing it. by the way - to sell this stuff you buy franchise rights - upwards of $50K is my understanding. the whole thing is a stack of MOV's worth about $7.00 to manufacture - it's so hokey and makes it difficult on the reputable manufacturers to differentiate technology from the world of "Oz" where MOV's equate to 15% savings on your utility bill.

my opinion and i can support it anytime if someone pushing this garbage wants to do so...

I believe this is the post Alan is referring to.

Difference between a Surge vs. Line Fault:

Surge is a brief (transient) wave of voltage current or power in an electrical circuit, lasting for less than 1% (50 microseconds) of the power wave cycle duration.

Line Fault is a transient wave of voltage current or power in an electrical circuit, lasting for milliseconds, seconds or even minutes. This can be caused when something (i.e. trees) collapse on the power lines.

Zero Surge's patented series mode technology is designed and certified by UL 1449 Adjunct Classification to withstand at least 1000 surges @ 6,000V, 3,000A in 30 sec intervals without any degradation or failure. This equates to "10 years of the worst case surges". According to IEEE/ANSI, a 6,000V 3,000A surge is the largest surge that will enter a building/home. Surge suppressors are not designed to protect against Line Faults.

As a consumer, you have a right to ask a manufacturer for "proof of performance" of their product/service claims. Ask a surge suppressor manufacturer for their test results from a NRTL (National Recognized Testing Lab). They should be easily accessible on a company's web-site or provided in a timely manner when requested.

Zero Surge Inc.

Originally posted by rdwalt
I believe this is the post Alan is referring to.

I do remember that now.... if it had been any other poster (other than a mfr. rep.) I don't suppose it would hold much weight.
I don't envy the job of making the distinction. I guess if I was worked for a competitive product I would just disguise myself as a 'regular reader' and bash away! Maybe some do already... personally, I think it's much ado about nothing.. but can appreciate that some guidelines are necessary. I don't need to keep exposing my ambivalence about the subject matter. Thank you, and keep up the good work!:cool:

Originally posted by rdwalt
I believe this is the post Alan is referring to.

Actually, this seems to be a scam and he should not be criticized in this case. To quote the mfr., "RediVolt, Inc., provides a written warranty that its Power Management System cuts electrical (kWh) usage by 20% or more", which is rediculous. Think infomercial and car fuel saving devices! Keep in mind, I'm speaking as an engineer. Assuming they are doing power factor correction (which I doubt and they don't even claim it), how are you going to cut power consumption of a lightbulb by 20% with a "black box". Simply, you can't without lowering the voltage (which kind of limits the effectiveness of the bulb).

Paul

apologies to the admin - and i will abide by the rules of the board. in regard to bashing other manufacturers - i think i'm on the record as also saying there are many solutions at many price points and all have their place in the market. i would say an interpretation of the questions that potentially should be raised based on what a manufacturer claims on their website is public consumption. i have been very careful to mention that i would imagine there is a patent number in most cases that is published on the web based collateral - it's all there for the investigating if one would like to do so.

asking the questions is our job as consumers of technology. i am no different - for the record, i just bought 3 "Surge"whatevers by GE for my new home that give me multiple outlets. now, i know what they are, but at the price point (below $15) they give me alot of available small load connections. i obviously plug my products into the available outlets for protection, but the point is - from what i can tell, it takes all types for the variety of consumers in the market.

truth be told, the ideal scenario for any residential, commercial, or industrial application is to filter/protect the main incoming service where all interconnected equipment is bonded (hence, the point of entry to every other circuit for power anomalies), and then a device of some ilk as close to the load as possible. pitching a power supply as the end all to every potential contribution source is more of a boast than the lion's share of what i've mentioned.

the best thing to do would be to save any comment/opinion for PM's and let the person asking the question make the determination personally whether or not they agree with my viewpoint.

in regards to Redi-Volt, i can only tell you that any consumer should do their homework (it won't take long) and buyer beware...

Again - apologies if i've gone outside the rules of the board.

Doug

Doug (djoseph52),

Does the EP2050 only clean up the power coming in from the outside, or does it also clean what is generated inside the house?

Robert

Doug (djoseph52),

Hello? Are you still around? How about my previous question?

Robert

My understanding of the EP products is that it cleans up the electrical circuit. Therefore the 2050 placed in the house will clean the house continuous circuit. Something about the path of least resistance. Accoding to the diagrams the more units you add to the circuit the better, I suppose it is a compounding effect to a point.

I apologize my last physics class was over 20 years ago!

Originally posted by Fedreams
My understanding of the EP products is that it cleans up the electrical circuit. Therefore the 2050 placed in the house will clean the house continuous circuit. Something about the path of least resistance. Accoding to the diagrams the more units you add to the circuit the better, I suppose it is a compounding effect to a point.

I apologize my last physics class was over 20 years ago!

No need to apologize, there isn't a physics course that could explain this. There are a lot of marketing courses that could :D Considering that Ca. utilites are at their limit and the cost and time to build plants is excessive, one would think that SCE and PG&E would jump at the chance to reduce consumption up to 20% with this technology. That assumes, of course, it works. I just don't see how.

Anyone care to show actual "dirty power" and how it can be cleaned up after the meter to gain 20% efficiency using actual household loads?

I do not see where any claim was made for the EP unit regarding a 20% saving or any other number. Doug discussed noise reduction and their website discusses surge protection as well.

Kal

I think it's the "xxxx-volt" companies that are making the 20% savings claim, not EP. There may have been some editing and post deletions earlier that may make that now unclear.

RediVolt has indicated to me that they will be adressing the claims and comments about their product shortly. I look forward to hearing from them, as I am sure all of you do.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
[B]I do not see where any claim was made for the EP unit regarding a 20% saving or any other number. Doug discussed noise reduction and their website discusses surge protection as well.

Kal [QUOTE]

Doh! Yes, I was referring to the xxxx-Volt company :rolleyes: That's what happens when do a really quick check and follow-up with a lousy nights sleep. I hate daylight saving.

[QUOTE]RediVolt has indicated to me that they will be addressing the claims and comments about their product shortly. I look forward to hearing from them, as I am sure all of you do.
[QUOTE]

I can't wait. I've got my can of BS repellent at the ready :D

Paul

Whew, I just installed an EP unit and it was NOT supposed to save money! ;-)

Kal

Kal

So tell us what it does do....:D

Series mode surge protection, it burns excess energy in the ground loop--AND it isn't one of those four-figure "for discerning audiophiles only" devices. Is there anything not to like? :)

I've read this entire thread and it has been informative. One thing that seems unanswered: to what degree does the Brickwall filter or clean power? That seems unclear to me, still, although it is claimed somewhat in passing on the web site.

It also sounds to me like the APS UPS units are bona fide voltage regulators, but don't actually exhibit a "pure sine wave" on utility power but simply pass through the existing "pure sine wave" that our utility is sending us already, possibly with corrections for under/over-voltage from the battery? I guess I'm unclear about exactly how much "filtration" the APS SmartUPS units do.

Last question, when we talk about conditioners, etc., are we talking about units that surpress or filter noise coming from the wall socket or do these also suppress noise that might come from one of the connected devices? (I'm not sure if this is even a relevant question but it was on my mind.)

Hey all,

I spoke with Doug from EP today and ordered a couple 2450's. He's without internet for a tad cause he's moving. I would urge anyone to give him a call if you need more details on there products. He's pretty well educated on this stuff and pretty quick to answer any questions. Alot of EP's stuff is used to protect CNC machines. These machines are made to hold extremely tight tolerances 0.00001" sometimes! And can be affected by power problems. They also can cost a crapload more than our A/V stuff. If its good enough for CNC its good enough for me!

Just my 2 cents

I called the 800 # and got some bizarre recording about a local # change. Tried again, got the same recording, so I sent him a PM, haven't heard from him since. So your moving comment seems to explain both problems. Glad -you- got thru.

Conyo

How much did the 2450s set you back?

Hope you don't mind me asking.

Would a UPS still be needed together with an EP to safely power down microdisplay RPTVs? Would adding the UPS counteract some of the power cleaning benefits of the EP?

hello group!

sorry for the delay in getting back - let's just say the phone company has been difficult, and why do they bother offering you the opportunity to make an appointment for phone and DSL transfer of service when.... nevermind - good to be back, even on lame dial up until other issues are addressed.

i wanted everyone that has sent me a PM to know i will be responding today since i have a little time. i always encourage a call, and will give you a temporary number (the 800 number is in limbo until the knew office line is connected - ouch!) via PM.

energy reduction is a myth from the perspective of preventing the meter from turning - a perfectly balanced 3 phase signal could (in theory) "trick the meter" and people have been trying to perfect this for ages. TVSS devices will never come close to this capability, and the utilities only offer single phase power to the majority of their residential customer base so it is a waste of effort to try and get phase alignment between voltage and current such that the magnetic field energizes and collapses simultaneously rendering the meter "spinless"...

the "XXX-volt" (i love this nickname) process goes like this - you buy a ton of their stuff, they put a couple of encyclopedias worth of rules/stipulations in front of you to sign, you provide them with your utility bills, and they rail you with "weather issues" and hold you hostage for 2 years during the term of the agreement. i'm not talking out of school - do a websearch and you'll find it. i was trying to do a public service to tell people to run from anyone guaranteeing energy savings - if it were that easy - we'd all be doing it.

now - here's the hard part. when you remove high frequency noise from a distribution system, the equipment will all run more efficiently. since alot of the "solutions" in the market dump garbage on the neutral - alot of money could be saved if it were "usable" energy rather than power on the neutral return path to the utility (you bought it but didn't use it). a reduction in "notching" of the sine wave will in fact give rise to less consumption and longer lasting equipment. that being said - we would never claim it or guarantee it because i'm not interested in your utility bill, the load changes, weather issues, utility issues, etc... that is a full time job that ain't worth having. additionally, holding someone's money for a predetermined length of time and then "promising" to give it back if they don't see the savings is a lack of faith in one's own product. what takes 2 years to figure out? why not have the client withhold payment for the 2 year proving period? it's lame, it's flawed, and regardless of how the admin takes it - it's a scam!

think about how equipment is influenced by skin effect and heat in the conductors. think about how a conductor's impedance rises with heat. the interconnected equipment must draw harder because the "path" to the device is impeded by crowding eddy currents. remove this, and everything operates as designed and has a greater lifecycle.

isolation transformers do not work! they disconnect neutral from ground, but nothing is isolated. HF noise will saturate the windings of an iso-transformer very easily rendering it a nice heating element in your deer stand! windings to magnetic core to windings - it is a transformer plain and simple - all the rules apply...

UPS's are terrible for sine wave reproduction but great for what they were designed to do - give enough power and time to properly turn everything off - do not confuse them as a power quality device - they aren't in any way.

with all due respect to Zero Surge - testing lab validation is a farce. how do you account for max surge current ratings over 180,000A (Ontario Hydro had the capability of generating this much current for a very, very brief period of time - and that was the only "lab" in North America that could do it)? if a device takes a 6KV 3KA "hit" - what it does with the residual, let through voltage, and HF noise is the question - I would be very interested in learning what your equipment does - not what some "lab" says it is CAPABLE of doing. what does current do when you shunt to ground? it rises proportionately to the voltage drop. nothing on the market (outside of one mfr i know well) talks about what ringing tails do to a DC circuit. Nobody talks about the effects of HF noise on a printed circuit board. Nobody can explain why all these wonderful protection devices do not prevent gradual failure of equipment with no moving parts. why? forget IEEE - they have an application, then they have a specification. the application meets said specification - thus here's the solution - who benefits from that outside of whoever wrote the spec?

how does the industry get these insane numbers that look great on marketing slicks and packaging? they add up the individual capabilities of each component in a perfect world and back door the math to come up with a big number - wish i could say it weren't so - but there is no basis for any mfr to claim 500,000 max surge current capabilities - name the "Lab" that has the ability to generate and sustain that kind of energy???? anyone? anyone? (crickets) that's right, it doesn't exist.

Last point to the question of filtering the whole home. yes the EP line filters the whole home by becoming the least resistive path in the circuit with less than one Ohm. we install the unit at the panel as that is where all of the bonded neutrals interconnect. we prevent the HF noise from traveling.



i look forward to your thoughts and PM's and will address them promptly.

Doug

good question.

i strongly recommend a UPS device for the reasons you mention. the problem with a UPS is that it is a noise generator. the device takes AC to DC to AC which becomes DC at the connected equipment rectifier.

all of that inversion of current produces a huge reflection of HF noise back out the voltage legs. we prevent a couple of things from happening. first, we keep the batteries from failing as fast - HF noise breaks down the dielectric material in the battery. second, we absorb the noise coming out of the UPS (one of our biggest customers in the casino industry showed us a 15KVA UPS they used as secondary power - it blew out 15 or 20 slots every time they switched to it) - it produces a very sharp edged, synthetic sine wave - not a smooth gradual positive to negative. third, we protect the UPS without shunting events into the ground loop where energy will take the least resistive/impeded path - we remove it completely.

so without question - a UPS is a necessary evil, but to implement one without any protection will produce negative results - over time.

Doug

Any comments on this new product info from the widescreenreview website?

Tripp Lite is introducing a line of products that includes surge suppressors, UPS systems and cables designed specifically for home/business theater applications. The new products are manufactured for use with every component — including high-definition TVs, VCRs, DVD recorders, personal video recorders, satellite and A/V receivers, and DVD/CD players.
Five new surge suppressors are available from the company. These are the HTPOWERBAR10, HT10DBS, HT1010SAT3, HT706TSAT and the HT706TV. All feature the highest joule ratings compared with other surge suppressors in their class. Premium features on select models include up to 5700 joules, up to $500,000 lifetime insurance, up to 10 outlets, up to 8 feet of cord and color-coordinated outlet/plug labels. Suggested retails for home/business surge suppressors range from $35.99 to $299.99. The company's signature line of Isobar's ranges from $48 to $134.95 (non-rack mount).
The UPS system HT1500UPS provides up to three hours of battery backup support during power incidents. Premium features include a stylish, low-profile housing, eight outlets, 6 feet of cord, outlet/plug labels and $100,000 in lifetime insurance. Suggested retail for the home/business UPS system is $169.99.
Tripp Lite also is offering a new connectivity product line that includes RGB coax, S-video, DVI video, high resolution audio, digital-optical audio, subwoofer, FireWire, USB 2.0 cables and more. The new cables provide all components with superior audio/video connection solutions, said the company, with premium shielding and gold connectors on most models. Audio, video, FireWire and USB 2.0 cables range from $14.99 to $69.99.

DJ-

So you still recommend connecting wall outlet to your filter to UPS to load?

Originally posted by djoseph52
good question.

i strongly recommend a UPS device for the reasons you mention. the problem with a UPS is that it is a noise generator. the device takes AC to DC to AC which becomes DC at the connected equipment rectifier.

All of them, Doug? I just received a an APC S-15 which puts out a very nice sine-wave under load.

Kal

chop - i only recommend the wall unit as an accessory to the panel unit as it is always desirable to get as close to the load as possible for filtering - not necessarily surge protection which ideally would take place further from the load...

kal - the answer to your question is an absolute yes. all ups's operate the same way: they take the AC from the utility/outlet and convert it to DC to charge the batteries (first rectification - noise back out the voltage legs or dumped to ground/neutral); they take the DC to AC to put back into the circuit (second rectification - the DC charge is "trickle" which means lowered therefore as current lowers voltage rises and has to go somewhere - always, and usually at higher frequency); the AC is then converted back to DC at the load which is typical of the modern home, business, industrial facility (third rectification - see "first" above).

so, yes, they have to operate that way sans never trickle charging the battery - the most expensive part of the device that has to be replaced with regularity - because of the damaging effects of high frequency noise. their "surge suppression" is little more than an MOV, gas tube, or diode shunt device, and voltage regulation is another subject all of its own - remember that all modern electronics store energy in capacitance/inductance for "ride through" when a dip or sag occurs, they have to or they would have a warranty return department the size of their design and manufacturing group - ask yourself how a manufacturer of board level equipment stays in business or separates itself from the millions of board fabricators in Asia. while tv and dvd boards are commodity items, commercial/industrial equipment control boards are where they make their money, and they have to provide a robust product or they die on the supplier list as long as the FL coastline.

take a look at the printed circuit board in most digital equipment - what do you see? the capacitor and inductor components dominate the sq footage of the board.

capacitors resist change in voltage while inductors resist change in current (that's why you need one with the other)... one could make the argument that a voltage regulation device could "inject" a power source that was never necessary and impart damage to the board which is designed to address fast acting fluctuations. i will say that i am no expert on this technology, but from an understanding of how to protect the internal components of digital equipment - this may not be a stretch...

now back to what i've always felt about UPS's - you gotta have 'em. they allow you to turn things off properly. i would never advise regular use of them when primary power has been lost, or considering them a power quality device by any definition. plain and simple, short term backup power source.

Doug

In regards to some of the posts in this forum from one of the members regarding the RediVolt unit, let me be the first to explain a few things to all of you. First of all, somebody who bashes another companies product is fully understandable, especially given the circumstances of that person is trying to sell their product. That is completely understandable, it is called competition. But the fact that that person bashes the product in such a way that it absolutley makes that person look pretty pathetic, now that is an issue. How can somebody say things about a product (aka the RediVolt system) without even knowing anything about the actual product or how it is applied to an electrical system......let alone somebody who isn't even an engineer so they don't understand the concept and theory anyway. I say this to all members in this forum. The RediVolt system is by far the absolute best surge protection device you can purchase on the market. As an engineer who understands the fundamentals of surge protection and has done the research, there simply isn't anything out there that compares with the warrantys and guarantees. For protection in your home, expecially with all of the advanced electronics on the market today, the RediVolt unit offers the lowest clamping voltage and the fastest clamping speed, the two most important factors when deciding on surge protection. Each unit offers a $100,000 connected equipment warranty, no strings attached, as well as a product lifetime warranty. On the commerical side of things, when applied properly in a facility, not only do you protect the entire electrical system and all of the electronic equipment, a significant energy savings can be realized. I have over 500 customers at my fingertips who have installed the RediVolt system and yes, the majority of them are saving significant energy in their facilities. In order to fully understand how the RediVolt system works, you need to know a little about transinet surges. If you don't understand the theory, you will never understand how the RediVolt system works. I just wanted to jump in here and put a stop to some of the negative things that are being said about other products in here. Ultimately, all of you will be your own decision makers, but make sure you have all the information you need before taking the opinion of others.

Originally posted by voltman76
In order to fully understand how the RediVolt system works, you need to know a little about transinet surges. If you don't understand the theory, you will never understand how the RediVolt system works. I just wanted to jump in here and put a stop to some of the negative things that are being said about other products in here. Ultimately, all of you will be your own decision makers, but make sure you have all the information you need before taking the opinion of others.

OK. 'Splain it or give us a link to an explanation.

Kal

Originally posted by voltman76
In regards to some of the posts in this forum from one of the members regarding the RediVolt unit, let me be the first to explain a few things to all of you. First of all, somebody who bashes another companies product is fully understandable, especially given the circumstances of that person is trying to sell their product. That is completely understandable, it is called competition. But the fact that that person bashes the product in such a way that it absolutley makes that person look pretty pathetic, now that is an issue. How can somebody say things about a product (aka the RediVolt system) without even knowing anything about the actual product or how it is applied to an electrical system......let alone somebody who isn't even an engineer so they don't understand the concept and theory anyway. I say this to all members in this forum. The RediVolt system is by far the absolute best surge protection device you can purchase on the market. As an engineer who understands the fundamentals of surge protection and has done the research, there simply isn't anything out there that compares with the warrantys and guarantees. For protection in your home, expecially with all of the advanced electronics on the market today, the RediVolt unit offers the lowest clamping voltage and the fastest clamping speed, the two most important factors when deciding on surge protection. Each unit offers a $100,000 connected equipment warranty, no strings attached, as well as a product lifetime warranty. On the commerical side of things, when applied properly in a facility, not only do you protect the entire electrical system and all of the electronic equipment, a significant energy savings can be realized. I have over 500 customers at my fingertips who have installed the RediVolt system and yes, the majority of them are saving significant energy in their facilities. In order to fully understand how the RediVolt system works, you need to know a little about transinet surges. If you don't understand the theory, you will never understand how the RediVolt system works. I just wanted to jump in here and put a stop to some of the negative things that are being said about other products in here. Ultimately, all of you will be your own decision makers, but make sure you have all the information you need before taking the opinion of others.

Thanks for the response. Is the residential product, the same as the product you use to protect a commercial facility, or are they comprised of different components?

Also, can you speak a bit to whether or not there is an issue of harmonics being introduced into the system, with the surge being shunted to ground, and is it imperative that multiple units be installed in parallel, rather than in series, to prevent this.

Finally, is it true that the Redivolt system will handle the current from a direct lightning strike?

I would urge anybody owning or considering purchasing a series mode unit to read the following thread beginning with my post about halfway down page 3...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=470228&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

In addition, I'll address a couple of items in Doug Deacon's Surge Protection Basics post...

Which is faster, the series mode unit or an MOV based unit?

That will depend a lot on the exact circumstances of the surge. In addition, clamping voltage is much more important than absolute speed. Clamping voltage is often reported as part of the UL 1449 test results. The SurgeX camp does not report clamping voltages. Decent MOVs will conduct within 1ns and this is fast enough.

If you are using coaxial protection with your series mode unit be sure to put it at the service entrance and have a good ground. These are almost all gas discharge tubes which, like MOVs, will short from the signal wire to the ground wire (or visa versa) above a certain voltage. Now you have a potentally damaging voltage on the ground wire of the coaxial cable. The coaxial cable is tied to the safety ground wire in almost all HT equipment so a dangerous ground loop is now very possible. The series mode units offer no defense against this. The integrated units, like Monster, Panamax, TrippLite, and others, will protect. I don't know anything about the Adcom unit so I can't comment about that.

Most everything else is covered in the linked thread. For those of you with other surge protection devices in your house, pay special attention to what can happen with a series mode unit + a MOV unit.

My disclaimer again: I've never made one penny off of the design or sale of any electronic component excluding things I sold used. That includes surge protectors. I only have you all's best interest at heart.

Does anyone know anything about Newpoint and their surge protectors?

Originally posted by uiucsb
Does anyone know anything about Newpoint and their surge protectors?

For UPS, I would tend to stick with APC or Tripp Lite, as they have a long reputation. That's not to say Newpoint is bad or not as good. (they look nice :)
If you are willing to spend a bit more for voltage protection, Panamax makes some nice units that remove power in case of huge AC excursions, as well as some decent filtering for noise. I have seen them work for real. They do remove AC in the presence of harmful under and over voltages.
Panamax also claims their units are sacrificial in case of direct lightning strikes. Hope I never find out.
While none of these are the 'high end' sort of componenets. they do a decent job and are certainly better than the average surge protection stuff you will find in 'handyman' stores which are fine for inexpensive and less complex equipment.

Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
OK. 'Splain it or give us a link to an explanation.

Kal

Well....voltman76 seems to have disappeared. And I was looking forward to the 'splanation. For the record, I am not and have never been involved with power distribution electronics (just signal processing and speaker design).

Paul

I am waiting for the engineer guy to tell us how shunting to ground will save you a percentage on your utility bill.

by the way engineer, i've broken it open and had it analyzed by phD's, EE, and physicists - it's a joke.

if you are in fact an engineer - please get to "'splainin'" - the floor is yours and the audience is captivated... i know i am.

tell us what the ride through voltage looks like after the MOV clamps.
tell us where the clamped voltage goes - does it disappear?
tell us why the metal oxide in the unit won't break down?
tell us how pulse current generators creating skin effect in a conductor will "save energy"?
tell us why the customer puts up their money for two years and then if not satisfied or sees their guaranteed savings - never seems to get their money back?

i've got a laundry list of questions - let's start the debate voltman!

Doug,

What's your take on the PS Audio line of products, like the Ultimate Outlet?

(Sorry, I don't have enough posts to include the link)

Thanks for knocking the dust off this thread, but everyone has disappeared. I called Doug for a little more information as I was ready to buy and all I got was voice-mail. I left a message and haven't heard since.

Good luck with a response,
Robert

thanks for all the info in the thread!

What does everyone think about this unit APC H10 (http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=H10) if I can get it for less than $250?

Actually that's not a battery backup. Anyone know the cheapest sine wave battery backups?

What does everyone think about this unit APC H10 (http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=H10) if I can get it for less than $250?

It looks much like the S15 units I have except for the UPS fxn. Depends on what you need.

Kal

I want sinewave output, line conditioning, and battery backup for my DLP projector. I wonder what would happen if I ran a furman power conditioner on a cheap APC battery backup.

The recent posts brought this to light again so I'll address it since nobody else has.

First, I am an engineer and this product reeks of snake oil. And no, I'm not a competitor, I'm employed in the audio and sensor industries. As to this product, "significant energy savings" is a dead give away, falling into the perpetual motion category. Are you doing PFC? Doubtful, but if you are, what about resistive loads like light bulbs, TVs ovens, etc. and how is there any energy savings there? If there were any "significant savings" the power companies would be all over this and installing them in every home, as it's cheaper than building a new plant. As far as I'm concerned, if you're making these ridiculous claims about significant power savings, your power protection would be suspect as well. As to the damage insurance, there are so many loopholes to avoid paying, it's not even worth addressing.

Perhaps there's a slim chance that this thing does what you say it does, but until I see some hard data and theory showing it, I would look elsewhere for power protection.

Paul

In regards to some of the posts in this forum from one of the members regarding the RediVolt unit, let me be the first to explain a few things to all of you. First of all, somebody who bashes another companies product is fully understandable, especially given the circumstances of that person is trying to sell their product. That is completely understandable, it is called competition. But the fact that that person bashes the product in such a way that it absolutley makes that person look pretty pathetic, now that is an issue. How can somebody say things about a product (aka the RediVolt system) without even knowing anything about the actual product or how it is applied to an electrical system......let alone somebody who isn't even an engineer so they don't understand the concept and theory anyway. I say this to all members in this forum. The RediVolt system is by far the absolute best surge protection device you can purchase on the market. As an engineer who understands the fundamentals of surge protection and has done the research, there simply isn't anything out there that compares with the warrantys and guarantees. For protection in your home, expecially with all of the advanced electronics on the market today, the RediVolt unit offers the lowest clamping voltage and the fastest clamping speed, the two most important factors when deciding on surge protection. Each unit offers a $100,000 connected equipment warranty, no strings attached, as well as a product lifetime warranty. On the commerical side of things, when applied properly in a facility, not only do you protect the entire electrical system and all of the electronic equipment, a significant energy savings can be realized. I have over 500 customers at my fingertips who have installed the RediVolt system and yes, the majority of them are saving significant energy in their facilities. In order to fully understand how the RediVolt system works, you need to know a little about transinet surges. If you don't understand the theory, you will never understand how the RediVolt system works. I just wanted to jump in here and put a stop to some of the negative things that are being said about other products in here. Ultimately, all of you will be your own decision makers, but make sure you have all the information you need before taking the opinion of others.

OK, I first read this thread from beginning to what was then the end about a year ago! A few days ago, I finished reading this thread again from beginning to what is now the end! As a result, I'm going to be purchasing a Brick Wall PW8R15AUD, and I may be purchasing an APC Smart-UPS (SUA750), but I have nagging doubts about whether I'm just throwing money away by buying a UPS.

If I purchase the UPS, I'll be putting a new DLP RPTV and a Motorola DCT-6412 (two-tuner cable PVR) on it. Does anyone know for certain that sudden loss of power can damage either a DLP RPT or a PVR? I know, many people say, "If I have X thousand dollars worth of A/V equipment, spending another measly $200 to protect that investment is well worth it!" Well, yes and no. If sudden loss of power isn't going to affect either piece of equipment seriously, then it's $200 thrown away, and I have better uses for that $200!

I'm not looking for arguments like, "Well, if something did happen, you'd be sorry!" I'm looking for evidence that sudden loss of power definitely will harm the equipment.

Comments?

OK, I first read this thread from beginning to what was then the end about a year ago! A few days ago, I finished reading this thread again from beginning to what is now the end! As a result, I'm going to be purchasing a Brick Wall PW8R15AUD, and I may be purchasing an APC Smart-UPS (SUA750), but I have nagging doubts about whether I'm just throwing money away by buying a UPS.

If I purchase the UPS, I'll be putting a new DLP RPTV and a Motorola DCT-6412 (two-tuner cable PVR) on it. Does anyone know for certain that sudden loss of power can damage either a DLP RPT or a PVR? I know, many people say, "If I have X thousand dollars worth of A/V equipment, spending another measly $200 to protect that investment is well worth it!" Well, yes and no. If sudden loss of power isn't going to affect either piece of equipment seriously, then it's $200 thrown away, and I have better uses for that $200!

I'm not looking for arguments like, "Well, if something did happen, you'd be sorry!" I'm looking for evidence that sudden loss of power definitely will harm the equipment.

Comments?


Well, one of the main reasons why people who own DLP sets run them through UPS units is to ensure that in the event of a power outage, the cooling fan continues to run, which preserves the life of the bulb.

I'm honestly not sure how sensitive the bulbs are to excessive heat, as would be experienced during a power outage. But given the cost of replacing the bulbs alone (~$200), it's well worth your while to protect your investment by using an UPS. Not to mention the added benefits of power conditioning/surge surpression afforded by these units.

I have my Samsung DLP set running through a APC SmartUPS unit for these very reasons :)

OK, I first read this thread from beginning to what was then the end about a year ago! A few days ago, I finished reading this thread again from beginning to what is now the end! As a result, I'm going to be purchasing a Brick Wall PW8R15AUD, and I may be purchasing an APC Smart-UPS (SUA750), but I have nagging doubts about whether I'm just throwing money away by buying a UPS.

If I purchase the UPS, I'll be putting a new DLP RPTV and a Motorola DCT-6412 (two-tuner cable PVR) on it. Does anyone know for certain that sudden loss of power can damage either a DLP RPT or a PVR? I know, many people say, "If I have X thousand dollars worth of A/V equipment, spending another measly $200 to protect that investment is well worth it!" Well, yes and no. If sudden loss of power isn't going to affect either piece of equipment seriously, then it's $200 thrown away, and I have better uses for that $200!

I'm not looking for arguments like, "Well, if something did happen, you'd be sorry!" I'm looking for evidence that sudden loss of power definitely will harm the equipment.

Comments?


thommy,

Like you, I read this thread from beginning to end about a year ago and kept up with it ever since. I'm very disappointed everyone seemed to disappear a couple of months ago, so unlike you, I still don't have a clue what to get for surge protection and power filtering. What swayed you toward the Brick Wall unit? As far as the UPS goes, if the power goes out the lamp needs the fan to cool down properly. The worst possible scenario would be the restoration of electricity before the lamp has completely cooled. Goodbye lamp. That is the necessity of the UPS.

Robert

thommy,

Like you, I read this thread from beginning to end about a year ago and kept up with it ever since. I'm very disappointed everyone seemed to disappear a couple of months ago, so unlike you, I still don't have a clue what to get for surge protection and power filtering. What swayed you toward the Brick Wall unit? As far as the UPS goes, if the power goes out the lamp needs the fan to cool down properly. The worst possible scenario would be the restoration of electricity before the lamp has completely cooled. Goodbye lamp. That is the necessity of the UPS.

The Brickwall and other series mode protectors are the best protection you can get. If they are too costly, a decent MOV unit will suffice, but I would look at replacing it after a couple of line surges as MOV's are consumables (open it up and inspect it occasionally). If you have a DLP or bulb based unit with a fan, I would definitely look at a UPS because of the cooling issue. Most UPS's have MOV's but get a bit costly to replace often :) If you get a surge protector and a separate UPS, the UPS should be after the protector. Unless your power is very ratty (which is pretty unusual), skip the line conditioner. Most AV equipment handle typical line variations by themselves fairly well.

I have an Adcom ACE315 (the 615 has more outlets, skip the 515) which I got for a good price as a demo (it also does outlet switching which is very useful for my setup), and I plan to get a UPS when I get a RPTV.

HTH,
Paul

Most of the larger projection DLP, LCD displays average around 250 watts. Of course, about half that is for the lamps.
Plus add another 50 or so for anything else you may want to plug in like your cable or SAT STB.

Remember, most UPS have model numbers reflecting a rating in KVA. (kilovolt-amps) which is related to duty cycle and is about 75-80% of what you really need in power capacity (wattage out). You want to choose an UPS based on power out needed in watts.

For the sample above (300 watts), you want an UPS that will handle at least 50% more than what you need, or 450 watts.

In this case, an UPS in the 600-800 KVA range should be more than sufficient.
The UPS like APC brand for example, will have numbers, like APC650, 725, etc.
You should be able to get a decent one within range for around 100 bucks, even less. Stay with well known brands like APC, TrippLite, etc.

IF you are into a higher capacity one that also has superior suppression I believe Monster makes one for around $300 street price.

how about this solution for a UPS backup for a tv in your living room ? I might pick this up for my next tv purchase:

http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=195291

how about this solution for a UPS backup for a tv in your living room ? I might pick this up for my next tv purchase:

http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=195291

My review/comments about this will appear in the September Stereophile.

Kal

Looks like a slick unit. Anxious to see Kal's review.

For those of you who are looking for more information on the RediVolt units, they just put together a new web site on the energy saving aspects.

Transient Voltage Surge Suppressors (http://www.tvssenergysavings.com/)

Apparently, there are more sites to come, hopefully adressing more of the questions raised here. I will post links as I hear about them.

Kal,

Is there a Stereophile recommended list of power conditioners and surge supressors? What convinced you to get the EP unit? All the manufacturers claim the technology in their product is the best and find fault with the others. I dislike the idea of MOVs and was leaning heavily toward a Brick Wall until Doug from EP appeared in this thread. I became a believer in EP's solution after reading Doug's posts here, corresponding with him via PM's, and reading all the information on their website. So, I decided to buy from EP. I called Doug, got his voice mail, and left a message. Doug never returned my call and hasn't been on this thread since. In the meantime, my equipment remains unprotected!

Do you have any answers or suggestions?

Thanks,
Robert

Robert,

I exchanged multiple emails and phone conversations with Doug over the last week and, in fact, spoke with him late this afternoon to place an order. Possibly something happened to your message, but I found his responses quite prompt. I'd suggest you try again.

Good luck,
Will

3 outages today, about 10 seconds, 2 days in a row. Thanks to the UPS I kept watching TV... :)

It's 103 outside.....

Kal,

Is there a Stereophile recommended list of power conditioners and surge supressors? What convinced you to get the EP unit? All the manufacturers claim the technology in their product is the best and find fault with the others. I dislike the idea of MOVs and was leaning heavily toward a Brick Wall until Doug from EP appeared in this thread. I became a believer in EP's solution after reading Doug's posts here, corresponding with him via PM's, and reading all the information on their website. So, I decided to buy from EP. I called Doug, got his voice mail, and left a message. Doug never returned my call and hasn't been on this thread since. In the meantime, my equipment remains unprotected!

Do you have any answers or suggestions?

Thanks,
Robert

Frankly, I was intrigued by Doug's combative responses, most of which seemed reasonable. More than that I am not prepared to say except that my September column will deal with devices from Panamax, EP, Belkin and APC.

Kal

Will,

Thanks for the heads up. Are you getting a whole house unit EP-2050, the HT unit EP-2450, or both?

Videoaddikt,

What UPS do you have? Does it have a pure sinewave output? Is it an online or offline model?

Kal,

When does the September issue hit the stands? As I stated earlier, in the meantime, my equipment remains unprotected.

Robert

I am only guessing (since I get it by mail) that September Stereophile will hit the newsstands about the 10th of August.

As for lack of protection, why not just get either (1) a whole-house surge protector (the most effective route) or (2) an inexpensive temporary one (think of it as disposable in this season of hurricanes and summer lightning storms).

Kal