Robert,

I have ordered the EP2000A and a EP2450.

Regards,
Will

Most of the larger projection DLP, LCD displays average around 250 watts. Of course, about half that is for the lamps.
Plus add another 50 or so for anything else you may want to plug in like your cable or SAT STB.

Remember, most UPS have model numbers reflecting a rating in KVA. (kilovolt-amps) which is related to duty cycle and is about 75-80% of what you really need in power capacity (wattage out). You want to choose an UPS based on power out needed in watts.

For the sample above (300 watts), you want an UPS that will handle at least 50% more than what you need, or 450 watts.

In this case, an UPS in the 600-800 KVA range should be more than sufficient.
The UPS like APC brand for example, will have numbers, like APC650, 725, etc.
You should be able to get a decent one within range for around 100 bucks, even less. Stay with well known brands like APC, TrippLite, etc.

IF you are into a higher capacity one that also has superior suppression I believe Monster makes one for around $300 street price.

Thanks videoaddikt. I still need to make my way through the whole thread, but wanted to let you know your quick advice is appreciated.

i think that i will hold off on the monster and just have my neighbor, clark, hand around touching my unit while holding a glass of water and his finger in his ass. thanks

I think I know that guy...

Three hands?

8 or 2 receptacle Surge Protector?

Thanks for all the information in this thread! It has been very helpful.

I've decided that I will get a Brick Wall unit and a UPS unit (I plan to buy a DLP/LCP RPTV in the near future). I was planning on connecting everything to the UPS and the UPS would be connected to the Brick Wall unit. Thus, I did not think I would need the 8 receptacle unit.

Since I will be getting a UPS, can I get by with a 2 receptacle unit or should I still get an 8 receptacle unit?

This was probably covered earlier in this thread, but I may have missed it.

I've decided that I will get a Brick Wall unit and a UPS unit (I plan to buy a DLP/LCP RPTV in the near future). I was planning on connecting everything to the UPS and the UPS would be connected to the Brick Wall unit. Thus, I did not think I would need the 8 receptacle unit.

Since I will be getting a UPS, can I get by with a 2 receptacle unit or should I still get an 8 receptacle unit?
I was planning to do exactly what you describe. If you want to be able to continue watching TV while the power is out, I'd go with the 2-receptacle Brick Wall and plug everything into the UPS (and the UPS into the Brick Wall).

Because I'm not buying this equipment to be able to watch TV while the power is out, but to allow the TV's bulb to cool down and the disk in my PVR not to lose power suddenly, I've decided to go with the 8-receptacle Brick Wall. I'll only plug the TV and the PVR into the UPS, and will plug the UPS, DVD player, receiver, and VCR into the Brick Wall, using 4 of the 8 receptacles (too bad they don't make a 4-receptable model, but the 8 isn't much more expensive than the 2).

I realized this was a good option when I saw that I needed a much more expensive UPS to be able to handle my entire audio system and then realized I didn't need to power the entire audio system with the UPS.

I was planning to do exactly what you describe. If you want to be able to continue watching TV while the power is out, I'd go with the 2-receptacle Brick Wall and plug everything into the UPS (and the UPS into the Brick Wall).

Because I'm not buying this equipment to be able to watch TV while the power is out, but to allow the TV's bulb to cool down and the disk in my PVR not to lose power suddenly, I've decided to go with the 8-receptacle Brick Wall. I'll only plug the TV and the PVR into the UPS, and will plug the UPS, DVD player, receiver, and VCR into the Brick Wall, using 4 of the 8 receptacles (too bad they don't make a 4-receptable model, but the 8 isn't much more expensive than the 2).

I realized this was a good option when I saw that I needed a much more expensive UPS to be able to handle my entire audio system and then realized I didn't need to power the entire audio system with the UPS.


Thanks for the help Thommy! I'm doing pretty much the same thing. I didn't take into account how large/expensive the UPS would need to be to connect all of my audio equipment as well. Thus, I will be getting an 8 receptacle unit from Brick Wall and probably an APC UPS unit for the TV.

I have another question regarding Brick Wall units. How much of an increase in performance can you expect from the Audio Surge Protecotor (AUD) over the Standard Surge Protector at Brick Wall? I'm not an audiophile, but I have a Yamaha receiver (HTR-5790) and a Polk Speaker system with a Subwoofer (RM10). In addition, I will be purchasing a 50"-55" RPTV (LCD or DLP). Is it worth/appropriate getting the Audio Surge Protector???

I have another question regarding Brick Wall units. How much of an increase in performance can you expect from the Audio Surge Protecotor (AUD) over the Standard Surge Protector at Brick Wall?
There are reports earlier in this thread that the original (non-AUD) units can restrict dynamic range, and the AUD units were subsequently designed to eliminate this behavior (which they apparently do quite well). My current audio system isn't sufficiently high-end that I'm sure I'll hear a difference, but I expect to be replacing most of my audio components during the next few years, and I want to make sure I don't limit what I'm going to be able to get out of those new components by my choice of surge protection now. For another $30 (MSRP), it seems like a simple decision.

According to Brickwall, the ONLY difference between the Aud and non-Aud is the ADDED filtering between outlet banks on the Aud units.

Kal

i have been checking this thread for days now and have learned a lot from it. my only concern right now is that i have a multi channel amp (krell TAS) which is 200x5. i have been getting some rolling brownouts in my area lasting from a couple of seconds to sometimes a hour. currently i have a surge unit protecting my DVD player, DLP HDTV and my processor. krell recommends plugging the amp straght to the outlet but with this issue i have i think i would be better off with a surge protector on my amp and also for my sub.

can you guys recommend a surge suppressor that is capable of handling this much load (200x5 watts)? i am also concern that if i use a suppressor for my amp it might somewhat degrade the performance of the amp. your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

For those who are interested, Redivolt has added an additional 16 pages of information on their product.

Redivolt Faq's (http://www.redivoltfaq.com/)

There are only two technologies widely available for surge/spike protection. Once you understand the differences between them, the decision about which technology to buy is trivially easy.

Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV) surge suppressors
MOV's are used in products sold by Monster, APC, Walmart, Radio Shack and nearly every other surge suppressor and UPS on the market. MOV's have three features you need to know about:

1. They all have a finite clamping speed, some of the surge gets through before the rest is shunted to ground. Your "protected" equipment takes a constant series of mini-spikes. Nothing you'll notice, nothing to invoke the $5MM equipment replacement warranty, but not good for delicate circuits either.

2. MOV's work by shunting excess voltage to ground, which contaminates the ground of all circuits that share the same ground. Electrical grunge and screwed up voltage for the whole system.

3. MOV's are all designed to fail. They are a consumable. Every spike they shunt, whether large or small, degrades them. That's what "joules ratings" are for, they indicate how many joules the MOV can shunt before failing.

Once an MOV fails, and they all will, they provide no more protection. Zero. If your unit doesn't have some kind of warning indicator (most don't, unfortunately) you'll find out when the next spike comes through and fries your equipment.

UPDATE: a few lucky users will find out immediately when their MOV takes its final hit, since they've been known to ignite. That's right, a fire in your HT rack! To be honest, this is fairly rare... feel better?

Not interested in MOV-based "protection"? Keep reading.



There are a lot of problems with your description of MOV's -

a) any well made surge protector will fail open when a MOV blows (meaning it will not pass power any longer) - so no fire is needed to tell if a MOV blows. Also, if a MOV fails you will know it because it will be burnt and you can smell it.

b) MOV's are consumable, but again, any well made product will also utilize other components to absorb a surge such as a common mode filter or capacitors and all MOV's do is pick up the left overs.

c) MANY surge protectors with MOV's have lifetime warranties. If they failed very regularly, I highly doubt those would be offered.

d) The fire claim is just rediculous. ANY place you have power, there is a potential for fire. If the products were dangerous they wouldn't be sold.

e) Joule's ratings are jokes. They mean nothing and are easily manipulated. Use Let-Through Voltage determine the quality of surge protection you get. Any product which has a UL listing must have a let through voltage rating because that is one of the main components for recieiving the UL 1449 saftey standard for surge products.

f) I guess I don't know what you mean by "response time". There are no relays or motors which need switching in a surge protector, it's just a circuit board sitting there.

f) I guess I don't know what you mean by "response time". There are no relays or motors which need switching in a surge protector, it's just a circuit board sitting there.

Actually, that's not true for all protectors. Panamax units rely on relays to remove/reapply power in the case of major over or under line voltage excursions.
I suppose those could be classified as line variations, rather than surges in the sense of HV spikes, etc. which typically would be handled by MOVs.
I would think a response time for relay(s) to energize/deenergize is involved, though likely not as critical in contrast to MOVs in response to much faster transitions.

Actually, that's not true for all protectors. Panamax units rely on relays to remove/reapply power in the case of major over or under line voltage excursions.
I suppose those could be classified as line variations, rather than surges in the sense of HV spikes, etc. which typically would be handled by MOVs.
I would think a response time for relay(s) to energize/deenergize is involved, though likely not as critical in contrast to MOVs in response to much faster transitions.

Right. The Panamax units I have use MOVs for surge/spike protection and relays for over/undervoltage. Similarly, the APC units use MOVs (of tiered let-through-voltage) and relays to correct under/overvoltage. Horses for courses.

Kal

Horses for courses.

Kal

"...horse, of course..." Mr. Ed 1962

"...horse, of course..." Mr. Ed 1962

Yes, Wilbur.

My review/comments about this will appear in the September Stereophile.

Kal

Does your review include any wave form captures when on battery to show how close the inverter comes to a true sine wave.

Are there any other readers of this thread that may have purchased the APC AV series and put a scope on them to see their wave form? I am waiting for a local distributer to get a demo unit in and see what the wave form looks like when on battery.

Does your review include any wave form captures when on battery to show how close the inverter comes to a true sine wave.
Nope. Not a technical review but I did take a quick look at the waveform and it looked like a clean sine. OTOH, I took no measurements.

Kal

As part of the TVAuthority PowerBuy for the Samsung 6168 DLP, I'm getting a free Monster surge suppressor (MP-HTS1000) thrown in. I'm thinking of getting an inexpensive UPS as well. I was looking at the Belkin F6B750-AVR, Tripp-Lite HT1500UPS, and APC Back-UPS ES USB 750VA. Couple of questions:

-- Any opinions for/against any of these?
-- A message earlier in this thread (I only read the last 10 pages or so) said it was bad to plug two surge suppressors into each other, but didn't elaborate. Since the UPSes all have built-in surge suppression, is it bad/good/pointless to plug the UPS into the Monster surge suppressor?

Personally, I would not plug the UPS into anything but the wall outlet, as far as putting any additional noise/spike suppression after the UPS, I would imagine it's ok...don't know for sure.
Definitely, not a Panamax, etc that uses relays to remove/reapply power. Although, they are great on their own.
Once exception to the first statement, would be to have a unit like RediVolt that mounts in your breaker box.

I think the guide is to not plug a surge suppressor into an UPS. IIRC, the UPS putting out a square wave or modified sine is hard on the surge suppressor components- which might explain why an expensive suppressor I had a few years ago toasted itself.

I think the guide is to not plug a surge suppressor into an UPS. IIRC, the UPS putting out a square wave or modified sine is hard on the surge suppressor components- which might explain why an expensive suppressor I had a few years ago toasted itself.

Makes sense. Considering the suppression in UPS units is likely only on the AC side for probably much the same reason.

So to sum it up:

One should get a Series Mode line conditioner/surge protector

One should plug a UPS into the SM surge strip to continue to provide power to any AV equipment that needs to power down such as cooling fans in RPTVs (or possibly to keep from losing scheduled recordings from a PVR)

Everything else can go into the surge protector with confidence that it will be protected. This includes feeding coaxial cables and any other source that comes into the home unbuffered/protected.

As a side note ethernet cards shouldn't get fried if the modem is surge protected through both the coax (or DSL) input and the AC power.

Another side note is that since any suppression or line conditioning is good, I wouldn't really pay too much attention to the designation on the back of the strips (other then the high current out which has different protection). So if you want to plug that xbox or camcorder or TV or whatever into the slot that is labeled "Audio Conditioning" there will likely be no perceptable difference versus the "Video" surge filter.

So to sum it up:

One should plug a UPS into the SM surge strip to continue to provide power to any AV equipment that needs to power down such as cooling fans in RPTVs (or possibly to keep from losing scheduled recordings from a PVR)

Another side note is that since any suppression or line conditioning is good,

If 'any' suppression or line conditioning is good that should preclude the need to plug a UPS into a surge strip, don't you think?

I think a UPS is better plugged straight into the wall as they typically provide surge protection for any devices plugged into them during AC operation. I would have to revisit my owner's manual, but I believe the mfgs. advise against plugging UPS's into any power strips.

If there is any doubt if enough equipment at home is being protected, then a RediVolt or similar device can be used at the power panel at a reasonable cost.

SPtimeace...What goes in the high current out ??? Could a Subwoofer go there that has a high output amp as my Paradigm 2200...just curious!

Does anyone have experience with the PureAV™ Home Theater Battery Backup AP30800-10 (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=195291#)?

I've found them for less than 1/2 msrp but the Belkin/PureAV site doesn't get very specific about the specs. I would plan to plug this into a line conditioner. Maybe the PureAV™ Home Theater Power Console PF30 (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=178339)?

I would be connecting a 60" Sony LCD projection TV, DVD-R and HD-DVR cable tuner.

Any comments or sugeestions?

Thanks!

Monster's markup is huge. As with any high markup item, the place to go to buy is ebay, where people sell Monster stuff closer to wholesale... just FYI.

Once you decide to spend more than $100, the BrickWall really starts to make sense... I love mine.

Cheers,
RDaneel


...Which guarantees low prices, and even lower support to go with. If a power conditioner fails and you stuff is FUBAR as a result, good luck.

Focus on the practical ramifications of what you say before the kneejerk "I hate profitability" puke spills forth.

Does anyone have experience with the PureAV™ Home Theater Battery Backup AP30800-10 (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=195291#)?

My comments in September Stereophile.

Kal

Does anyone have experience with the PureAV™ Home Theater Battery Backup AP30800-10 (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=195291#)?

I've found them for less than 1/2 msrp but the Belkin/PureAV site doesn't get very specific about the specs. I would plan to plug this into a line conditioner. Maybe the PureAV™ Home Theater Power Console PF30 (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=178339)?

I would be connecting a 60" Sony LCD projection TV, DVD-R and HD-DVR cable tuner.

Any comments or sugeestions?

Thanks!Look at the PureAV™ Home Theater Power Console PF60 at e-cost 60% less than MSRP.

I think a UPS is better plugged straight into the wall as they typically provide surge protection for any devices plugged into them during AC operation. I would have to revisit my owner's manual, but I believe the mfgs. advise against plugging UPS's into any power strips.
This has been covered earlier in this thread. While companies will tell you not to plug their UPS into a surge protector, they are assuming one would be using another MOV device, and such would not be safe.

However, for the few of us with SM devices, rest assured that the builders of SMs have tested them to be able to have a UPS plugged into them. This way the SM protects everything. This is stated on at least one of the SM builder's sites.

This has been covered earlier in this thread. While companies will tell you not to plug their UPS into a surge protector, they are assuming one would be using another MOV device, and such would not be safe.

However, for the few of us with SM devices, rest assured that the builders of SMs have tested them to be able to have a UPS plugged into them. This way the SM protects everything. This is stated on at least one of the SM builder's sites.

This is what I was thinking when I said that. The surge suppression in a UPS is likely MOV and you'd rather not have that wearing out so just plug it to the _SM_ strip for ultimate protection. When connected in that order you would not see any negative effects and you would improve the lifetime of your UPS. Connected the other way the UPS cannot support the wattage of the numerous devices plugged into the strip and this would be very bad for the UPS. This is why they only have 2 sockets.

jwv651 -
Yes a high current amplifier (not necessarily an AV amp) such as those bands use or any large _active_ subwoofer will work on the high current out. These devices operate in different ranges and generally use the high current to minimizie distortion, noise, and harmonics. Mostly dedicated audio uses (digital processing (i.e. digital tv) does not benefit from the added current range).

My motherboard and fairly new HD were fried by something that got thru my fairly new TrippLite UPS. So I now plug my UPS into a brickwall.

Look at the PureAV™ Home Theater Power Console PF60 at e-cost 60% less than MSRP.Thanks. I was going to buy there but found another place for $50 less - shipped no less. I can't believe Circuit City and BB are selling them at MSRP.

This has been covered earlier in this thread. While companies will tell you not to plug their UPS into a surge protector, they are assuming one would be using another MOV device, and such would not be safe.

However, for the few of us with SM devices, rest assured that the builders of SMs have tested them to be able to have a UPS plugged into them. This way the SM protects everything. This is stated on at least one of the SM builder's sites.

Not my cup of tea, but thanks for the explanation. That's the problem coming into threads late. :)

some of those suge/conditioners are big money, why not just buy an APC UPS or Belkin with line conditioning for a much more realistic price?

Unless you're looking for the wow facter of having your S/C in your rack setup.

I am looking at "APC Back-UPS BE725BB 725VA 450W 8 Outlets UPS" $85.

has these features:

General Features:
Audible alarms
Automatic self-test
Battery-protected and surge-only outlets
Cold-start capable
Dataline Surge Protection
Hot-swappable batteries
Lifetime data recovery warranty
Power conditioning
Resettable circuit breakers
Safety-agency approved
Transformer-block spaced outlets
USB connectivity

Output power capacity 725 VA
Output power capacity 450 Watts
Max Configurable Power 725 VA
Max Configurable Power 450 Watts
Nominal output voltage 120V

Dataline protection RJ-45 Modem/Fax/DSL/10-100 Base-T protection,Co-axial Video / Cable protection

I doubt that you're going to get the same level of surge protection and line conditioning, plus a UPS, for significantly less money. I thought I had a good UPS- it wasn't. These UPS units mostly use MOVs, and will wear out, usually without warning.

$85 doesn't even buy a decent surge protector, IMHO.

I doubt that you're going to get the same level of surge protection and line conditioning, plus a UPS, for significantly less money. I thought I had a good UPS- it wasn't. These UPS units mostly use MOVs, and will wear out, usually without warning.

$85 doesn't even buy a decent surge protector, IMHO.

APC makes the best UPS there are, their stuff is what protects the majority of datafarms. Silly to spend 40% of what you spent on the TV on surge/conditioning.

Hello all,
As is obvious by the user name. I work for APC on the home theater side. I'd be happy to answer any question you may have as to power conditioning, surge protection, etc.

There is obviously a lot of chatter here about conditioning (far more than I would expected actually) and I'd like to throw my 2 cents in. Obviously, as I work for a manufacturer, you can take or leave my advice, but at APC, we really feel that an informed customer is a good customer and in turn, will lead customers to our products. There are companies out there were respect because they make good products and others we don't (and no, I won't name names ;) ) and i'm going to make every effort to be as straight with you all as possible.

A couple of things I have noticed that I would like to address-

First, about MOVs - MOV technology is failure based, BUT it is very hard to make them fail. When a MOV fails, you know it and we want you to know it because we offer an unlimited lifetime equipment protection policy. The MOV's we use in our products are rated for 100 6,000 volt spikes which amount to about 8-10 years of use (depending on where you live of course). To call surge protection MOV based is somewhat of a misnomer. In our S Type Power Conditioner for example, before a spike ever hits our MOV's it will encounter a Common Mode Filter which will absorb about 80-90% of the spike. Our products are warrantied for 2 years under any type of material, workmanship flaws, etc along with acts of God. So if you take a spike and our product sacrifices it's self for the sake of your equipment, we'll replace it.

Also, the MOV technology is the same technology we use in protection of government agencies which maintain national defense and multi-national corporations (among other groups) - if the technology is good enough for them, I think it should be good enough for a home theater.

Secondly, there is a HUGE difference between any IT UPS (APC or any other brand)you can buy in a retailer and what we have developed for the Home Theater. We have substantially better surge protection, better voltage regulation (some of those units do not have one at all) in terms of transfer time and tightness of regulation, and significantly better EMI/RFI filtration (which is basically non-existent in an IT UPS, because that type of interference plays almost no role with computers) - all of these are very in a home theater.

Finally the battery. First of all, many of those units produce what is known as a step-approximated step-wave as opposed to a pure sine wave when on battery. If you have the means, try both out and let me know what you find. The change from utility power to step wave makes your display almost unwatchable in same cases, where as with a sine wave, you won't see the difference. Also, IT UPS's can not handle the in-rush current of some AV components (specifically, amps and plasma displays). In-rush occurs when the device starts up and charge it's capacitors. If you read an IT UPS product manual, in many of them you will see a caveat which advises you against using a laser printer in conjunction with the UPS and the in-rush current is the exact reason. We have specially designed our product to be able to handle this massive amount of current.

Essentially, we have designed a system where whatever state the power conditioner is in (passing power normally, correcting voltage or on-battery) will be totally seamless to you in your home because there will be no change in signal.

I could, obviously write on this topic all day, there is a ton more on top of what I have written here. But the bottom line is, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in the industry, but we want to be the science guys. You won't hear claims from us like we make your brights brighter or your whites whiter because those argument are totally subjective and not ones we (or anyone) can win. Our stance is, if we do those things great! But what we do is, we keep your theater safe, make your power better and help you components work at their optimal levels.

We are straight shooters.

Please fire along any questions you may have, as we have done extensive testing in this arena.

When my APC kicks in the transistion is seamless. I have my Sat receiver on the same UPS.
But I don't use it to sit back and watch video while until the power is restored. I power down the equipment, and there is plenty of battery power left to run the cooling fan the extra minute or so. After all, the best protection is NO CONNECTION.

Please fire along any questions you may have, as we have done extensive testing in this arena.Thanks for getting involved in the discussion.

What's the best way for me to calculate which UPS & Conditioning device I need for my set up? Are there current draws I should be adding up?

Wow apcav,
I've been reading this thread for 30 minutes and finally it's nice to read a post about a product like this by a guy who actually knows something about electricity. I'm glad somebody finally put out that info about step-wave output from UPS'. I always encourage people to take their UPS' and have a local electrician put an o-scope to see what they are getting out when the power goes out. Most will be very surprised. You mentioned using a Common mode filter to absorb 80-90% of the surge. Is that a solid state device or is that a basic circuit of caps and inductors?

Special thanks to the following thread contributors for helping me learn a lot and evaluate options on power accessories:

Doug Deacon
Zvogt
Djoseph52
Kal Rubinson
videoaddikt

I'm looking forward to Kal's Stereophile article in September. In the mean time, I continue to look at options. I am interested in the following set up:

PureAV™ HT Power Console PF60 --> to be connected to wall outlet
http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=178925

PureAV™ HT Battery Backup w/AVR Technology --> to be connected to above PF60
http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=195291

All my equipment (Denon HT in a box, Comast DVR, other accessories, & Comcast Coax) EXCEPT my new Sony LCD Rear Projection KDF-E50A10 --> to be connected to PF60 for surge protection and conditioning.

Then my Sony LCD Rear Projection TV---> to be connected to PureAV Battery Back Up. Of course then battery back up is connected to PF60, then PF60 to wall. This would be my only item connected to the battery back up in order to ensure solid protection of my TV.

My general drivers for these power accessoriecs until I know and understand more technical aspects are: Generally good reviews THUS FAR, Price - huge discounts online, Looks, and I like dealing with one company as much as possible on "like" items.

My key questions are:

1) Is there anything technically wrong with this proposed set up. In other words, is there anything that is flat out wrong or just doesn't make sense?
2) Any other reactions?

Again, I look forward to Kal's reviews of the individual components in September.

Thank you.

I have the PureAV™ HT Power Console PF60 and was thinking about getting the matching back-up as well...have noticed the PF60 does a great job noticed a huge difference in Audio and Video on my HLN567 DLP...Looking forward to comments from leadercrat questions.

Friday I spoke with Belkin tech support about combining the PureAV™ Home Theater Battery Backup with the PureAV™ Home Theater Power Console PF30. She made it sound like the Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) Technology was better than the surge supression and line filtering in the Battery Backup. I was less than confident in her explanation and reasoning. I told her the information provided for each model was not using the same terminology so she wasn't really making an apples to apples comparisson. She couldn't get more specific.

I too am curious to hear opinions on the setups mentioned in the posts above. I was thinking of doing it a little different. Plugging everything into the battery backup to make use of the AVR and then getting a smaller digital line conditioner to go between the TV/receiver and the battery backup. Maybe something like the PureAV™ HDTV Power Conditioner PFHD (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=187082#). I found it for a little over a hundred bucks.

We are straight shooters.

Please fire along any questions you may have, as we have done extensive testing in this arena.


Do you have any links to your oscilloscope pictures showing how your units handle spikes, surges, and brownouts? The competing technology to your MOVs (eg. Brickwall) has some nice pictures showing the failure of the MOV units to suppress the initial surge, and resulting shunt to the ground line. I see that your Joule ratings and other numbers seem impressive, but the oscilloscope does not lie.

Please fire along any questions you may have, as we have done extensive testing in this arena.

What is your best all in one unit that does battery backup, surge protection, voltage regulation, and filtering?

Do you have such a unit...?

Got links?

Thanks....(Just post a bunch of dummy posts to non-related threads if you don't have enough posts yet to post links.....:D)

Please fire along any questions you may have, as we have done extensive testing in this arena.


How about this for a loaded question: What would you personally buy from your company's product line for a new home theater system. Think $10,000 system or less....I want to protect my TV and receiver from surges..

Would like to spend $300 or less....power outages are very rare here.

Thanks!

I am with ez1putt -- I appreciate all the advice here and getting to know a lot more about stuff and later as I buy more expensive equipment I may spend $600-1000 protecting it, but now I am looking for something to protect against small spikes - if I get hit by lightning then crap.... so is it worth spending 80-200 bucks on something or does that really not do anything at all so then just save the money instead?

thanks for all the opinions and thoughts and facts in this thread

I doubt that any surge suppressor less than $100 is very good. If you are going to use MOV based suppressors, then replace them every year. Sure, they may be fine, your area may have no problems- but maybe not. The damage to your equipment is cumulative, a little bit here and there over time. The final straw may be tiny, with no warning.

Sometimes I wonder how we made it all those years without any kind of AC protection. Granted, less sensitive electronics was likely more robust to an extent.

Now we have decent protection at reasonable prices but it's still not good enough for some. Fortunately, some hi-end mfrs. jumped in to fill the needs of those craving more.

Most failures of consumer electronics tends to be early on not later. But I suppose we have to balance that against how often we replace it with newer models.

What is your best all in one unit that does battery backup, surge protection, voltage regulation, and filtering?

Do you have such a unit...?

Got links?

Thanks....(Just post a bunch of dummy posts to non-related threads if you don't have enough posts yet to post links.....:D)

Look at the APC S-15.

Kal

When does the Sept Stereophile hit the newstands?

Friday I spoke with Belkin tech support about combining the PureAV™ Home Theater Battery Backup with the PureAV™ Home Theater Power Console PF30. She made it sound like the Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) Technology was better than the surge supression and line filtering in the Battery Backup. I was less than confident in her explanation and reasoning. I told her the information provided for each model was not using the same terminology so she wasn't really making an apples to apples comparisson. She couldn't get more specific.

I too am curious to hear opinions on the setups mentioned in the posts above. I was thinking of doing it a little different. Plugging everything into the battery backup to make use of the AVR and then getting a smaller digital line conditioner to go between the TV/receiver and the battery backup. Maybe something like the PureAV™ HDTV Power Conditioner PFHD (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=187082#). I found it for a little over a hundred bucks.


Speaking from personal experience, I would place any AVR device before the battery backup rather then after. What may and eventually will happen if the AVR is after the battery backup. When on battery backup if there is a load change up or down the ups voltage will change slightly and the AVR will try and compensate. This change in voltage by the AVR will cause the current draw to change causing the battery backup voltage to change. This argument goes back and forth between the AVR and the battery backup untill one or the other trips out on over/ under voltage.

Placing the AVR before the battery backup lets it correct utility sags and spikes reducing the amount of small switchovers to battery backup you would normally get. Then if utility should fail the battery backup would supply power so you could do a normal shutdown. If you are not at home then the battery backup should have enough power to keep your dvr powered up untill power is restored.

Speaking from personal experience, I would place any AVR device before the battery backup rather then after.

What you do not want is a UPS and an AVR separately. Ideally, the AVR and surge protection should be part of the UPS and the only other devices you might want are filters and distribution boxes.

Of course, this is what Belkin does as the only AVR device in the PureAV line is, in fact, the UPS.

Kal

Thanks for getting involved in the discussion.

What's the best way for me to calculate which UPS & Conditioning device I need for my set up? Are there current draws I should be adding up?

The best way is to add up continuous power draw of devices, never, ever, size to max power loads (ie - the size of the power supply). Not always an easy thing to do to be honest because there are a lot of receiver and amp companies playing the watt game (more watts is better). Most important to start, SIZE YOUR DISPLAY! Your display will pull far more continuous draw than any other device on your system. I had a 55" Fujitsu hooked up a few weeks ago and it was pulling 450 watts continuously.

Other than that, read user manuals and tech specs to get the continuous power draws - you'll be quite surprised to see how little power a lot of the components draw.

Wow apcav,
I've been reading this thread for 30 minutes and finally it's nice to read a post about a product like this by a guy who actually knows something about electricity. I'm glad somebody finally put out that info about step-wave output from UPS'. I always encourage people to take their UPS' and have a local electrician put an o-scope to see what they are getting out when the power goes out. Most will be very surprised. You mentioned using a Common mode filter to absorb 80-90% of the surge. Is that a solid state device or is that a basic circuit of caps and inductors?

Caps and inductors

Do you have any links to your oscilloscope pictures showing how your units handle spikes, surges, and brownouts? The competing technology to your MOVs (eg. Brickwall) has some nice pictures showing the failure of the MOV units to suppress the initial surge, and resulting shunt to the ground line. I see that your Joule ratings and other numbers seem impressive, but the oscilloscope does not lie.

Excellent suggestion there. I'll see what I can dig up...stay tuned.

What is your best all in one unit that does battery backup, surge protection, voltage regulation, and filtering?

Do you have such a unit...?

Got links?

Thanks....(Just post a bunch of dummy posts to non-related threads if you don't have enough posts yet to post links.....:D)
Yes, our S Type (S15 and S10) accomplish the 4 features you mentioned.

Please note anytime ANYONE from APCAV talks about "power conditioning" we are talking about surge, filtration and voltage regulation. This is the ONLY way to have full conditioning. Any thing less, is not good enough.


www.apcav.com

How about this for a loaded question: What would you personally buy from your company's product line for a new home theater system. Think $10,000 system or less....I want to protect my TV and receiver from surges..

Would like to spend $300 or less....power outages are very rare here.

Thanks!

That is loaded like a howitzer :)

I will answer you and mhdiab with this post. If you are look for sub-$300, look for our H Type power condtioners coming out soon (H15 - $399, H10 - $299). Maybe a little on the high side for you, but you are getting excellent protection plus complete power conditioning, but no battery involved

What you do not want is a UPS and an AVR separately. Ideally, the AVR and surge protection should be part of the UPS and the only other devices you might want are filters and distribution boxes.

Of course, this is what Belkin does as the only AVR device in the PureAV line is, in fact, the UPS.

Kal

One of the problems of jumping on the leading edge of technology. At the time I was shopping for power protection nice all in one units like the APC and Belkin units designed for home theater did not exist. Sometimes it pays to wait untill the dust clears.

Howdy APCAV Guys,
Nice to have you here.

Anyway, I have been following the release of the new Home Theater units from APCAV. I really like the specs for the new S15. With the ability to expand the battery capacity.

Problem: Distribution.
Where are they. Why can't I buy it online somewhere. If its real and out there, get it to the customers.

Idea: Talk with David Bott about a special AVS forum power buy. :) <--I really like this !

I know for a fact I would be in for a APCAV S15. APCAV S15 (http://www.apc.com/products/apcav/products/index.cfm?action=detail&base_sku=S15)

Thanks.

That S15 looks good, looks expensive, and looks like it uses MOVs. So you'd still need a BrickWall or similar to plug it into, to stretch the life of that MOV surge suppression.

That S15 looks good, looks expensive, and looks like it uses MOVs. So you'd still need a BrickWall or similar to plug it into, to stretch the life of that MOV surge suppression.

Not so. The design of the S15 does not rely on a single MOV nor on multiple MOVs of the same value. They use high and low threshhold units along with other protective devices before and after the AVR/filtering. A tour of the APC site might reveal the 'white paper' on this series with more info.

Kal (whose experience with the S15 is described in the September Stereophile)

The August issue is still on the stands (Borders) as of yesterday. I look forward to reading the article. Maybe it will explain why it's use of MOVs is better than other units' not so good use of MOVs.

The August issue is still on the stands (Borders) as of yesterday. I look forward to reading the article. Maybe it will explain why it's use of MOVs is better than other units' not so good use of MOVs.

Not really. Not enough space. Ask APC.

Kal

Howdy APCAV Guys,
Nice to have you here.

Anyway, I have been following the release of the new Home Theater units from APCAV. I really like the specs for the new S15. With the ability to expand the battery capacity.

Problem: Distribution.
Where are they. Why can't I buy it online somewhere. If its real and out there, get it to the customers.

Idea: Talk with David Bott about a special AVS forum power buy. :) <--I really like this !

I know for a fact I would be in for a APCAV S15. APCAV S15 (http://www.apc.com/products/apcav/products/index.cfm?action=detail&base_sku=S15) Thanks.

Excellent idea.

For now, it is being distributed through AVAD (avad.com), you may be familiar with them through them recently being acquired by Ingram Micro. Find the site closest to you and they will look you up with a dealer to purchase from.

That S15 looks good, looks expensive, and looks like it uses MOVs. So you'd still need a BrickWall or similar to plug it into, to stretch the life of that MOV surge suppression.

A properly designed circuit does not rely on MOV's alone to surge protect. We use a common mode filter (a circuit of caps and inductors) to absorb about 90% of the surge before it ever even hits a MOV. So to say MOV technology is bad, is only telling a 1/2 truth.

Also, we offer a Lifetime, Unlimited Equipment Protection Policy (EPP). This means, if your devices are properly AC and dataline surge protected we will pay for any damaged equipment. We certainly would not offer that if MOVs are going to fail without the enduser having any knowledge of that. Also, our 2 year warranty covers defects and Acts of God. So if a MOV fails, we replace the entire unit for you - again, we would not offer that if MOVs were so unreliable.

When a MOV fails, it fails closed, meaning the unit will not pass power any longer, so one does fail, it is readily apparent.

Finally, we have our products protecting equipment in almost every aspect and department of Government, form desktop computers to data centers. If our products are good enough to be used in installations as important as these, clearly, they are well enough designed to be used with home theaters.

For the last few days after reading this thread, I thought "APCAV" was a new company. It turns out it is an A/V division of APC. I didn't make the connection until now that APC S15 and APCAV S15 are actually the same product. :o :confused: I posted this for the other people who might have been as confused as I was.

Brian

APC guys, if you offer a powerbuy I'm sure you will get a good response. I know I would be purchasing. And you know what they say, best marketing is done by satisfied customers.....

In terms of just VOLTAGE REGULATION/STABILIZATION, can someone explain the difference in performance between the APC H15, APC S15 and Monster AVS2000?

I realize Monster generally makes a decent product but are way over-priced. However, there's got to be some performance difference between the AVS2000 which retails for $1499 and the above mentioned APC units, which retail for $399 and > $1500, respectively.

In terms of just VOLTAGE REGULATION/STABILIZATION, can someone explain the difference in performance between the APC H15, APC S15 and Monster AVS2000?

I realize Monster generally makes a decent product but are way over-priced. However, there's got to be some performance difference between the AVS2000 which retails for $1499 and the above mentioned APC units, which retail for $399 and > $1500, respectively.

Maybe the APCAV Guy can explain their technology used for AVR. I guess that they use a multiple tap transformer and a series switching diodes to control which tap ratio to use depending on the input voltage. Please correct me if I am wrong. I do have the AVS2000, this is a large device considering its sole function is voltage regulation. It controls the voltage via a servo operated variable tap transformer. During severe voltage swings greater than 5 volts the servo is actually audible [sound like a SLR camera with a slow shutter speed]. During a test of the avs2000 a shop vac was turned on creating 8 volt drop at the outlet. The AVS2000 actually increased voltage by 0.8 volts before quickly returning to 120 vac output while the input was at 115 vac. If i had to make the choice over again today I would give serious consideration to the APC AV product line. It has more functionality for the same size footprint if not slightly smaller.

Am i disapointed with the choice of monster cables product absolutly not. Considering in the past 24 hours we have suffered one long term blackout and 2 short blackouts due to severe thunderstorms. Each time i was able to safely shut down the RPTV without possibly shortening bulb life due to the addition of a ups. Any voltage swings [actually sags] from 120vac down to 80 vac were adjusted for by the AVS2000 after that the UPS was called into service. Actually at the start if the long term blackout I actually finished watching the last 5 laps of the nascar race that was recorded on a SA8300 HD DVR before shutting down the TV. If APC has carried over the quality from their PC series of ups products to their AV PRODUCT LINE I am sure we will not be disappointed.

Thanks, Eddiscus. I guess it's too early to judge how effective the voltage regulation is in the $1499 AVS2000 compared to the $399 APC H15. Hopefully, APCAV Guys will chime in with his thoughts, not that it would hold much weight in this users forum. This is not intended to be a slam on APCAV Guys. I have just noticed that people in this forum react differently to manufacturers... and perhaps rightfully so.

I really do like the APC S15 but have a plasma. Therefore, with no bulbs to worry about, I'm not sure I really need to spend another $1100 to go from the APC H15 to the S15. That's quite a premium for just adding a pure sine wave UPS.

However, I may be convinced with a nice Powerbuy! :)

APCAV Guys,

I would like to possible purchase one of your products; however, I have not been able to locate the S10 or S15 anywhere. I called your customer service number several times and they gave me numbers/websites for distributors (who would not sell to an individual).

You should really make buying your products easier...

Thanks,
Paul

APCAV Guys,

I would like to possible purchase one of your products; however, I have not been able to locate the S10 or S15 anywhere. I called your customer service number several times and they gave me numbers/websites for distributors (who would not sell to an individual).

You should really make buying your products easier...

Thanks,
Paul


Yeah. I agree 100%. It's too much of a hassle trying to find one of these things. I'm not considering it any longer. I'm looking at the Belkin products. I can pick one of those up anywhere.

Yeah. I agree 100%. It's too much of a hassle trying to find one of these things. I'm not considering it any longer. I'm looking at the Belkin products. I can pick one of those up anywhere.Check out the Belkin
PureAVT Home Theater Power Console PF60 at e-cost.

Paul/Bz2yx9,

I actually spoke to APCAV Guys today. The distributors listed in APCAV.com's website are supposed to provide you with contact information for your nearest dealer (who can/will sell the S10 or S15 to you). I'm surprised the distributor(s) you called did not provide this information.

I agree it's difficult to purchase this product at the moment. APCAV Guys advised me that APC is looking to expand the distribution/retail channels for these newer products. However, the timing was unclear.

Personally, I'm leaning more towards the H15, since I have a plasma and therefore don't really need a UPS. When doing a Google search, I found a few etailers (like Buy.com) who are selling the H10 & H15.

Good luck!

I'm a little conflicted on exactly which product I should be looking at. I want a UPS for my RP LCD (for the fan). Because of that, I'm looking at the PureAV UPS. However, I need good surge protection for all my equipment, including a Rotel Amp. That UPS has two outlets that are not connected to the battery, but neither is for hi-current. I'm not sure I would want to plug my amp into it...

That might leave me needing two devices. Something like the PF60 and then a seperate UPS....

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I went to the APC website and found the distribution company for Houston and gave them a call. They gave me a number of a seller who happens to be in my neck of the woods (The Woodlands, TX). I spoke with him, he didn't have any in stock but could get an S15 out of Dallas in about a week. I went ahead and placed the order. I will report back on my findings. I BS'd with the guy for quite awhile about speakers, amps and TV's. I was able to beat him down on price pretty good by the end of the conversation, way lower than the MSRP.

That might leave me needing two devices. Something like the PF60 and then a seperate UPS....

Anyone have any thoughts on this?That's the way I would do it. PM me if you need pointer to pricing on the Pure AV pieces.

That's the way I would do it. PM me if you need pointer to pricing on the Pure AV pieces.Did you purchase the PF60...I already have the PF60 but which battery backup would be best for this unit and which way is the best way to set it up. How is yours set up?

Did you purchase the PF60...I already have the PF60 but which battery backup would be best for this unit and which way is the best way to set it up. How is yours set up?I don't have need right now for a hi-current system. I bought the Ap30800-10 Battery Backup (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=195291) and then bought a PureAV™ HDTV Power Conditioner PFHD (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=187082) to go between the BBU and my Sony KDS-R60XBR1. I thought the digital filtering of the PFHD might help improve the picture just a little.

Did you purchase the PF60...I already have the PF60 but which battery backup would be best for this unit and which way is the best way to set it up. How is yours set up?

I recently put in a PF60 as well as a battery backup for my directv tivo. The UPS is just plugged into one of the digital filter banks on the PF60. The main thing is to find out how much power you need to supply for the UPS. For me it was only about 26-watts so a small Back-UPS ES 350 supplies the tivo for more than 30 minutes. For me it's fine, I never lose power for more than 5 minutes.

HTH
-Joe

ok, APCAVGuy. I'm an electrical engineer and I understand all the discussion thus far and am going to purchase a power component within the week to have when my TV arrives. I just have one request. I would like for you to sell me the APC in a comparison of the S10 and the PureAV™ Home Theater Battery Backup with AVR Technology (they seem to be around the same price point). Also you can throw in there why one would consider spending 1500 bucks for the UPS. Plus, they all offer the same equipment warranty. So why should I pick APC?

ok, APCAVGuy. I'm an electrical engineer and I understand all the discussion thus far and am going to purchase a power component within the week to have when my TV arrives. I just have one request. I would like for you to sell me the APC in a comparison of the S10 and the PureAV™ Home Theater Battery Backup with AVR Technology (they seem to be around the same price point). Also you can throw in there why one would consider spending 1500 bucks for the UPS. Plus, they all offer the same equipment warranty. So why should I pick APC?

I know you are asking APC but I used and commented on the Belkin unit and the APC S-15 (same as S-10 but larger power reserve) in my September column. FWIW.

Kal

I know you are asking APC but I used and commented on the Belkin unit and the APC S-15 (same as S-10 but larger power reserve) in my September column. FWIW.

Kal


Is that on the stands yet? I've been waiting to read that article before I bought something.

Is that on the stands yet? I've been waiting to read that article before I bought something.

Dunno. Just got my advance copy last week.

Kal

I know you are asking APC but I used and commented on the Belkin unit and the APC S-15 (same as S-10 but larger power reserve) in my September column. FWIW.

KalThanks for not telling us.

Thanks for not telling us.

If you want the info free, it will eventually be posted on the website.

Kal

If you want the info free, it will eventually be posted on the website.

KalIf you pay me, I'd tell you what I think of that.

If you pay me, I'd tell you what I think of that.

Since we have no idea who you are, why would anyone care, let alone invest.

Kal

Since we have no idea who you are, why would anyone care, let alone invest.

KalExactly my point.

Exactly my point.

The only apparent point is that, for some reason, you are pissed off and making irrelevant comments. If you don't care about my comments, don't respond. Over and out.

Kal

The only apparent point is that, for some reason, you are pissed off and making irrelevant comments. If you don't care about my comments, don't respond. Over and out.

KalThe only apparent point is that you are only selfishly attempting to use this forum for your own gains with hopes of selling your magazines. Instead, try a selfless act of contributing your knowledge to the benefit the community as many here do.

FYI, the issue is one the newsstands! I pick up a copy at Barnes and Nobles. Kal said that his thoughts and recommendations ............................................................ .........

The only apparent point is that you are only selfishly attempting to use this forum for your own gains with hopes of selling your magazines. Instead, try a selfless act of contributing your knowledge to the benefit the community as many here do.
You tell 'em UG! We're going to have to get you "fitted with collar and chain." Anyone...anyone...?

The only apparent point is that, for some reason, you are pissed off and making irrelevant comments. If you don't care about my comments, don't respond. Over and out.

KalThanks Kal...I actually get the mag...good job :)

Kal,

Nice article. I actually know what the S15 does now. I tell you their marketing for that product is worse than terrible. But at $1500 MSRP it's out of my price range. Unlike the the Belkin, which can be had substantially less than MSRP, I doubt you can get much of a discount on the APC since it has such a limited distribution channel. Of course it sounds like the Belkin product is nothing more than a pretty version of an APC SmartUPS with a true sinewave...

I was confused by one part of the article by the way - did the S15 introduce more or less speaker noise as compared to the Panamax?

Kal,

Nice article. I actually know what the S15 does now. I tell you their marketing for that product is worse than terrible. But at $1500 MSRP it's out of my price range. Unlike the the Belkin, which can be had substantially less than MSRP, I doubt you can get much of a discount on the APC since it has such a limited distribution channel. Of course it sounds like the Belkin product is nothing more than a pretty version of an APC SmartUPS with a true sinewave...

I was confused by one part of the article by the way - did the S15 introduce more or less speaker noise as compared to the Panamax?

Neither introduced any added noise and they were comparable in their noise performance. OTOH, they are comparably priced and the APC has the battery backup that the Panamax does not.

Kal

What month is your article in on the APC S15? I just went to borders and looked at the stereophile mag, but didn't see an article. I'm thinking I probably should have waited until after I read your article to purchase, but I'm getting the feeling you were pretty happy with the S15....

What month is your article in on the APC S15? I just went to borders and looked at the stereophile mag, but didn't see an article. I'm thinking I probably should have waited until after I read your article to purchase, but I'm getting the feeling you were pretty happy with the S15....

Happy enough to have gotten another for my other system.
September issue, btw.

Kal

I just got back from Barnes & Noble, they had the current edition of Stereophile. Good article and it puts my mind at ease about my purchase. I live in The Woodlands, TX and we get power spikes and surges all day long, don't know why, and noone has ever been able to give a straight answer. Not too mention we get some wicked thunderstorms from the colder northern air meeting the warm gulf air. It sounds like the APC unit will be able to handle anything thrown at it, I also like that they stand behind their product if any of your equipment melts they will replace it. Thanks again for your insight.

WooHoo!! I get the APC S15 Saturday morning. No more breaking my neck running down the stairs everytime I hear thunder!

Wow! What a difference that thing makes! I bought it just for the protection. I didn't think the power conditioning would make that big of a difference, boy was I wrong!

I just ordered a intermatic IG1240RC (http://www.intermatic.com/?action=subcat&sid=138) You should be able to find it for about $65 shipped.

You can install it on 2 breakers. One of my breakers is on the TV/audio in the living room and the TV in the bedroom (same wall). My computer and other TV in the house is on the other breaker.

I'm responding to this post here because this is a great thread for continuing discussion of this topic (I still haven't read the whole thing all the way through!). Originally posted in the Samsung 1080p forum:

Calbert, I think the issue here is that some are considering connecting their sets via UPS to save the bulb. That was my understanding. I don't have my 5678 Sammy yet, but when I do I and others like yourself can confirm, I don't think the manual will mention UPS? I called Sammy tech. support a few weeks ago and the rep I spoke with said a UPS is not necessary, however if you use one it must be Pure Sine. I guess the way you mentioned it sounds like this is discussed often elsewhere. I guess I don't understand why people either disagree or pay no attention to the facts? A UPS works differently than a Pure Sine UPS. If anything no one should use a Modified standard UPS and only use a Pure Sine for everything since the electricity is the same in a Pure Sine as from the wall and a standard UPS is not.I'll check out my manual tonight to see if it says anything on using a UPS, or if it says anything about pure sine waves. I'm doubting it.

In a previous post of yours in that thread you mentioned that using a plain old UPS (like the APC ones marketed for computer use) could damage my tv. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to misrepresent anything you said. The response from the Sammy tech you spoke to implies that they feel the same way.

I guess I just wanted to ask if any of us have reliable sources that shows that using a non-pure-sine UPS to protect the bulb of your RPTV in the event of a power failure could actually damage the tv? Or other A/V equipment for that matter? This is not a hostile challenge to your statements; I just want to know more about it, since I'm currently using an APC UPC. I'll dump the thing from my A/V setup if it's clearly going to cause harm.

I have much reading to do ... either way, thanks for bringing the potential problem to our attention.

I'm responding to this post here because this is a great thread for continuing discussion of this topic (I still haven't read the whole thing all the way through!). Originally posted in the Samsung 1080p forum:

I'll check out my manual tonight to see if it says anything on using a UPS, or if it says anything about pure sine waves. I'm doubting it.

In a previous post of yours in that thread you mentioned that using a plain old UPS (like the APC ones marketed for computer use) could damage my tv. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to misrepresent anything you said. The response from the Sammy tech you spoke to implies that they feel the same way.

I guess I just wanted to ask if any of us have reliable sources that shows that using a non-pure-sine UPS to protect the bulb of your RPTV in the event of a power failure could actually damage the tv? Or other A/V equipment for that matter? This is not a hostile challenge to your statements; I just want to know more about it, since I'm currently using an APC UPC. I'll dump the thing from my A/V setup if it's clearly going to cause harm.

I have much reading to do ... either way, thanks for bringing the potential problem to our attention.


See my post #88 in the following thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6115727

IMO There doesn't seem to be any corruption of the dc output quality to cause any damage if the ups is used for emergency shutdown. Personally i don't know why you would want to treat your expensive tv to a square sine wave anyway. Kind of like connecting a $ 39.95 Costco DVD player to your HDTV. For what they offer (ups, avr,surge protection and inter-component filtering) in one package, the items geared for AV use by APC, BELKIN, PANAMAX etc. are worthwhile investments and protection.

Wow! What a difference that thing makes! I bought it just for the protection. I didn't think the power conditioning would make that big of a difference, boy was I wrong!

Care to elaborate on the differences you're seeing?

Thanks.

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't read all 29 pages of this post, but between the first 3 and the last 5 it appears that MOV's came back into fashion? Can anyone quickly point me to that page or clarify?

Also, can someone explain a square sinusoidal wave? I am not a physicist, but I know that a lot of modulation has to go through a wave to make a sinusoidal wave into square wave patterns. Is that a pointed comment to either system?

Thanks,

Bill

Actually, it's the battery (DC) that is being used to produce AC, which comes out as a square wave. There are ways to "smooth" that square to more closely approximate a sine wave. The closer, the better. No need (in this case) to take a sine wave and make it into a square wave.

Computer switching power supplies are more tolerant of square waves than nice audio equipment.

See my post #88 in the following thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6115727

IMO There doesn't seem to be any corruption of the dc output quality to cause any damage if the ups is used for emergency shutdown. Personally i don't know why you would want to treat your expensive tv to a square sine wave anyway. Kind of like connecting a $ 39.95 Costco DVD player to your HDTV. For what they offer (ups, avr,surge protection and inter-component filtering) in one package, the items geared for AV use by APC, BELKIN, PANAMAX etc. are worthwhile investments and protection.I'm an interactive designer by trade and can at least pretend to play when it comes to video topics ... but here I feel like I'm in a foreign land where everyone speaks the language I didn't study in college. ;)

But I think I get your point ... If I'm only expecting to use my $70 APC UPS for proper shutdown of the tv (thus protecting the bulb), and I don't plan on actually trying to runthe tv on the UPS, it doesn't look like there's any cause for concern about damage to my tv.

I bought my current UPS simply for bulb protection in the event of a power outage. Nothing more. Eventually I'd like to purchase a quality device for cleaner power and protection, but that will probably have to wait until next year.

Thanks for the help :)

Actually, it's the battery (DC) that is being used to produce AC, which comes out as a square wave. There are ways to "smooth" that square to more closely approximate a sine wave. The closer, the better. No need (in this case) to take a sine wave and make it into a square wave.

Computer switching power supplies are more tolerant of square waves than nice audio equipment.What's the reason for the difference in tolerance? (If this is already explained earlier in this thread, just shoo me on my way ... I'll get around to reading the whole thing this weekend I think).

Kind of like connecting a $ 39.95 Costco DVD player to your HDTV. For what they offer (ups, avr,surge protection and inter-component filtering) in one package, the items geared for AV use by APC, BELKIN, PANAMAX etc. are worthwhile investments and protection.

Hey, I resemble that comment! Would it be okay if I purchased my Samsung HDTV at Costco? :rolleyes:

Hey, I resemble that comment! Would it be okay if I purchased my Samsung HDTV at Costco? :rolleyes:

Ok, I withdraw the Cosco part of the comment. A square wave ups is still like connecting a $39.95 DVD player to an HDTV.

Calbert:

I'll defer a response to those more knowledgeable than I, but oversimplified, I think it has to do with the distortion affecting the audio waveforms. Garbage in, garbage out. Perhaps it causes inconsistencies in the DC out that the pre-amp/amp isn't expecting?

Care to elaborate on the differences you're seeing?

Thanks.

My system sounds much cleaner! Crazy huh? I didn't believe it either, I thought maybe I was just pretending to hear an improvement so I disconnected and listened. I hooked it back up again and there was a BIG difference. The TV is brighter too...

My system sounds much cleaner! Crazy huh? I didn't believe it either, I thought maybe I was just pretending to hear an improvement so I disconnected and listened. I hooked it back up again and there was a BIG difference. The TV is brighter too...

Now wait a second while I pick myself off the floor. You've really peaked my interest in stating a cleaner audio & brighter PQ on the TV w/the S15. WOW!

Kal, have you experienced similar improvements w/your APC S15?

Kal,
I had a chance to read your article this evening. First let me say I found it well written and informative.

Regarding the PureAV Home Theater Battery Backup AP30800-10, there is one item I believe you we incorrect about. If I recall correctly you mentioned the short comings of the AP30800-10 Battery Backup power filtering and noted the possibility of improving the power filtering by adding a PureAV PF60. Unfortunately since the AP30800-10 Battery Backup is a MOV based unit and all the other PureAV power conditioning units are also MOV based,according to Belkin tech support, they can not be used in tandem. Therefore you would create what Belkin tech support told me was a feedback loop between the multiple MOV units and create a possible hazard.

The following quotes are from the PDF user manuals from the PureAV website.

PureAV Home Theater Battery Backup AP30800-10
All PureAV Battery Backups must be plugged directly into the power source and must not be “daisy-chained” together in serial fashion with other power strips, UPSes, other surge protectors or extension cords. A 3–2-prong adapter may not be used. Any such installation voids the warranty.

PureAV™ Home Theater Power Console PF60
All PureAV Power Consoles must be plugged directly into the power source and must not be “daisy-chained” together in serial fashion with other power strips, UPSes, other surge protectors or extension cords. A 3–2-prong adapter may not be used. Any such installation voids the warranty.

Unfortunately PureAV/Belkin does a poor job of noting this in their product sales literature. I was disappointed to find out from the user manual and Belkin tech support that I would be limited to the power conditioning of the AP30800-10 Battery Backup if I implemented a UPS from PureAV. It creates a rather closed system. Because of this limitation I chose to return the unit and am exploring other options.

In the article you mentioned putting the surge unit on your power panel. Is that unit MOV based? If so, what happens if a user unknowingly purchases another MOV based component for placement at the theatre equipment? Does it create a potentially hazardous situation?

Thanks

All,

Has anyone dealt with CyberPower (http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/UPS_PR.asp) as a UPS provider? In trying to find a cheaper option to the APC technology, I stumbled across CyberPower. It toats some of the same technology (pure sine, voltage regulation, brownout and over voltage protection, etc) at a fraction of the cost.

I would appreciate any/all input!

Thanks

Bill

I may have just been unlucky, but I purchased a Cyberpower UPS a few years ago for my computer and within 6 months it stopped working. Cyberpower did replace this UPS though so I was happy until within a year that UPS stopped working too. It could have been that I was just getting bad batteries or just bad UPS, regardless I am now leary of Cyberpower UPS. We have used APC UPS at work and they seem to last a lot longer.

APC and TrippLite have been in the power protection business the longest, including industrial markets. That's the direction I'd thrown my money.

Kal,
I had a chance to read your article this evening. First let me say I found it well written and informative.

Regarding the PureAV Home Theater Battery Backup AP30800-10, there is one item I believe you we incorrect about.
You are right. I did not read all the fine print and assumed that the availability of different devices for different purposes would allow them to be used together. My apologies.

OTOH, the use of MOVs on multiple serial device is not, in itself, a no-no. For example, the power panel unit has MOVs as do almost all such devices and the power company (CLP), in fact, recommends their own MOV-based panel unit along with their own MOV-based power strips and will not warrant performance unless both are used.

My feeling is that Belkin and others are concerned about overloading one or the other unit if all the fanned-out outlets are used. For example, I have been using a Panamax 5510 for all my components in the CT system except for the power amp and plasma which are on a 4400-20A. Both are connected to the same dedicated 20A line and share a direct common ground.

Kal

I've read this thread (plus others), and I have buyer paralysis. I've had my DLP since April, and I also have a decent audio rack. They're both plugged into a $10 surge supressor.

It's been very hard to find the right solution. I'm not looking to spend a lot of money. Let's say around $200. I'd like a UPS so that I can properly shut down my TV if there's a power failure, and some kind of line conditioning because I'm curious to see if this yields any improvement in my audio/video. I don't care if this comes in the form of one unit or two.

For $200, I know I'm ont going to get anything near top-of-the-line, but I imagine I can get something that does what I'm asking. Can someone please point me in the right direction?

Griffin75

I have the exact same problem as you...buyer paralysis. I keep coming back to this thread trying to get some finality on what to buy at an affordable price. I really would like the APC S-Type Power Conditioner w/battery backup. But, a little pricey for me. The APC H-Type Power Conditioner is similar, but without the battery backup, at a fraction of the cost. I do not understand why the S-Types are so much more expensive, just to add the battery backup feature?

The question I have is battery backup really worth an extra grand? Maybe I'll take my chances with the bulb not cooling off for that amount of money, but still have the important power conditioning and surge protection. It is rare when we lose power here.

My 6768 will be hear sometime next week, and all I have is an APC Back-UPS. Come to find out, the square wave output is not a good idea, so I will only be using the surge protected outlets for the time being. :confused:

[QUOTE=Uninvited Guest]Kal,
according to Belkin tech support, they can not be used in tandem. Therefore you would create what Belkin tech support told me was a feedback loop between the multiple MOV units and create a possible hazard.

I agree with Kal I read the warnings as well and feel they are more for legal reasons. Did the belkin tech elaborate on how the feed back loop would develop. The only possibility I could come up with is if you use cheap power strip after a ups, the lowest voltage mov may come into play when running a square wave ups. With out getting too technical the mov will respond to peak voltages. A 120 volt true sine wave has a peak voltage of about 164 volts. A 120 volt square wave has a peak voltage of about 220 volts. If run on the square wave for to long the mov could overheat. Most of the suppressors and protection I have taken a look at seem to use a combination of reactor/ capacitor protectionfor low voltage spike suppression and mov's for higher voltage spikes.

[QUOTE=Desertdawg]Griffin75

I have the exact same problem as you...buyer paralysis. I keep coming back to this thread trying to get some finality on what to buy at an affordable price


I am a little reluctant to make this statment as it seems the "M" word seems to start a flame war
Also i have no personal experience with it as well, but Monster cable makes a 360 watt ups with stage 1 filtering. Another plus is it has an IR blaster so if your are away from the tv it will power down the tv to assure sufficient power for the fan. For bulb peace of mind this seems to fit the bill. If you do a search you can find it for $ 199- 260.

FYI, Tripp Lite has a new A/V UPS line on the way. Tripp Lite A/V UPS Systems (http://www.tripplite.com/press/releases/release.cfm?lang=english&id=294). There's not much else about them on their website. I've requested more info. I'll post what I hear.

status report...I had my first power outage yesterday since I received the S15. I had football on pretty loud while I was working in another room. I went to use an outlet in the room and no juice. I figured I tripped a breaker because I could still hear the game. I went to my box and nothing was tripped. So I was scratching my head saying wtf and then I remembered the APC unit. Went back inside and the whole house was down except for my system. Checked the front panel of the S15 and it said I had 22 minutes of power left. Pretty cool! It worked perfectly!

FYI, Tripp Lite has a new A/V UPS line on the way. Tripp Lite A/V UPS Systems (http://www.tripplite.com/press/releases/release.cfm?lang=english&id=294). There's not much else about them on their website. I've requested more info. I'll post what I hear.

Very interesting. I look forward to hearing what you find out. I am currently using a Trip Lite pure sine wave UPS coupled with some line conditioning equipment. It will be interesting to see what they have come up with to compete with APC in an all in one unit.

Hello, As a few before have mentioned. If we have only ~$300, it seems to me the Belkin AP30800-10 should give UPS, line conditioning, but not a real surge protection. It seems to me the way to go.

Is my thinking correct?? Thx.

Hello, As a few before have mentioned. If we have only ~$300, it seems to me the Belkin AP30800-10 should give UPS, line conditioning, but not a real surge protection. It seems to me the way to go.
Is my thinking correct?? Thx.

The sample I used hummed and was not as effective in reducing total system noise as some others. The UPS/AVR functioned as promised.

Kal

Could somebody please be so kind to recommend a solution under $300 to "protect" my Sony RPTV and HDTIVO?

I can't believe I've read all these 30 pages, got a headache, and still dont know what to get.

Thanks a lot

Can someone also explain why running a RPTV, or a projector for that matter, and using a UPS with a square sign wave would cause any problems if it used for only a few minutes a few times a year? Motors and other heavy mechanical equipment generally needs a pure sign wave, electronics generally do not. Even if the equipment is more sensitive that a normal PC, who is doing any critical watching of video during a blackout?

Also where is it written that having the fan not on when the the TV is off would decrease the life of the lamp? This sounds like nonsense to someone who has done a lot of work with lamps. I can see if the TV is turned off then on within a minute or two this might be helpful, but not when the TV is turned off and stays off for 5 minutes or more.

-Joe

Could somebody please be so kind to recommend a solution under $300 to "protect" my Sony RPTV and HDTIVO?

I can't believe I've read all these 30 pages, got a headache, and still dont know what to get.

Thanks a lot

Belkin PF30, or splurge and shop smart for the PF60.

...

Also where is it written that having the fan not on when the the TV is off would decrease the life of the lamp? This sounds like nonsense to someone who has done a lot of work with lamps. ...

Joe,

It's typically stated in the Manual as a caution not to unplug the set for X minutes after turning off the set.

Joe,

It's typically stated in the Manual as a caution not to unplug the set for X minutes after turning off the set.

Besides, all that 'nonesense' also has applied to film projectors for more than the last half century, not to mention all front projectors, big and small.

Hello,
I can't buy both a line conditioner and a UPS.

So is it better to buy the PF60 or the Belkin AP30800-10 (or some other brand/models)??

Thx.

Can someone also explain why running a RPTV, or a projector for that matter, and using a UPS with a square sign wave would cause any problems if it used for only a few minutes a few times a year? Motors and other heavy mechanical equipment generally needs a pure sign wave, electronics generally do not. Even if the equipment is more sensitive that a normal PC, who is doing any critical watching of video during a blackout?

Also where is it written that having the fan not on when the the TV is off would decrease the life of the lamp? This sounds like nonsense to someone who has done a lot of work with lamps. I can see if the TV is turned off then on within a minute or two this might be helpful, but not when the TV is turned off and stays off for 5 minutes or more.

-Joe
There is no definite answer. It depends on the power supply design as to whether it can tolerate a square wave. Fourier analysis tells us that you will get a lot of harmonics of the 60hz fundamental sine wave and if the power supply cannot reject or filter them out, they could cause problems with noise. However, it's doubtful that damage could occur. For the few minutes that the UPS is active as the set shuts down, you are correct, the noise is not an issue. The real question is, "do you need a UPS?" I say no. As I explained in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=572213&page=2&pp=30

A UPS is of little benefit as opposed to a good surge protector.

Paul

There is no definite answer. It depends on the power supply design as to whether it can tolerate a square wave. Fourier analysis tells us that you will get a lot of harmonics of the 60hz fundamental sine wave and if the power supply cannot reject or filter them out, they could cause problems with noise. However, it's doubtful that damage could occur. For the few minutes that the UPS is active as the set shuts down, you are correct, the noise is not an issue. The real question is, "do you need a UPS?" I say no. As I explained in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=572213&page=2&pp=30

A UPS is of little benefit as opposed to a good surge protector.

Paul

I understand your rationale, but have reservations anything could ride out the abrupt power changes characterisitc in brown-outs and outages as well as a UPS.
And if there is concern over square waves, more pure sine wave models are now available. For everyday fluctuations and noise, other protection is also advisable.

My Panamax responds instantly to over and under voltages, but does so by removing power. Well, no connection is great protection. But is not always necessary.

There is no definite answer. It depends on the power supply design as to whether it can tolerate a square wave. Fourier analysis tells us that you will get a lot of harmonics of the 60hz fundamental sine wave and if the power supply cannot reject or filter them out, they could cause problems with noise. However, it's doubtful that damage could occur. For the few minutes that the UPS is active as the set shuts down, you are correct, the noise is not an issue. The real question is, "do you need a UPS?" I say no. As I explained in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=572213&page=2&pp=30

A UPS is of little benefit as opposed to a good surge protector.

Paul

Paul,

I'm sure that you believe the cost-benefit analysis you provide is true, but one of the things about risk-management statements is they're based on the values of those constructing the argument. I understand your arguments.

However, for me, the psychic benefit of knowing that my DLP RP TV will cool down in a controlled way, and my DVR will stop spinning with the heads in the proper places, and I can finish what I was doing at my own pace, is worth the couple of hundred dollars of the UPS. I have been unconvinced that feeding a square wave into my various power supplies will do any damage at all for the few minutes they will be working. So for me, according to my cost-benefit analysis, the UPS is a substantial benefit.

What I really don't understand is why so many people seem to want to convince me otherwise. Is it really inconceivable that I would see the same data they do and still come to a different conclusion? A significant aspect of these kinds of analyses (how we evaluate the various outcomes) is truly purely subjective, and pretending otherwise has the effect of reducing the credibility of the analysis rather than convincing anyone of the error of their ways.

Just remember that most ups systems out there are either standby or line interactive. Meaning that utility power is not isolated until the ups switches over. Until that point you only have avr/ surge protection if equiped.
Online ups models constantly convert ac to dc back to ac. Which keeps you isolated from utility 24 / 7.

The other question is what are trying to protect your system from ?
1: protect bulb and projection engine from heat damage due to fan failure:
Basic ups with surge protection $100-300.
2: Protect most of the home theater from power line surges plus voltage sag/spike/outage:
UPS with AVR and power line surge protection $300-$800
3: Protect most of the home theater from power line surges plus voltage sag/spike/outage plus cable/ sat/ antenna/ telephoneline surge protection:
UPS with AVR and power line surge protection plus cable/sat/ tele protection. $ 800- $ 1500

Or when the power goes out you can go outside and enjoy the peace and quiet of nature. Wondering what will not work when the power comes back on.

No matter how much protection you have, in the event of a major storm, or other situation that makes the quality of power very questionable, disconnecting sensitive (or perceived sensitive) devices from the source is always a sensible thing to do.
You need not feel you have wasted money on power protection if you do so. There will be enough situations where the protection will come in handy with dirty power and sudden fluctuations, you could not possibly predict or respond to in time.
I think most all the contributors to this topic are more than cautious and probably tend to over protect more than those who do nothing at all.
We may take different paths to often accomplish similar goals. Knowledge is power, protect, but don't forget to set aside a larger portion of your time enjoying your investment in entertainment. :)

Paul,

I'm sure that you believe the cost-benefit analysis you provide is true, but one of the things about risk-management statements is they're based on the values of those constructing the argument. I understand your arguments.

However, for me, the psychic benefit of knowing that my DLP RP TV will cool down in a controlled way, and my DVR will stop spinning with the heads in the proper places, and I can finish what I was doing at my own pace, is worth the couple of hundred dollars of the UPS. I have been unconvinced that feeding a square wave into my various power supplies will do any damage at all for the few minutes they will be working. So for me, according to my cost-benefit analysis, the UPS is a substantial benefit.

snip



Mike,

I can't argue with the psychological benefit. If it makes you feel better, that's fine. We're not talking about a big chunk of money. However, you do bring up good point- the DVR. I would definitely have a UPS in this case. If the drive power is removed while a write sequence is occuring, you could crash the drive format and lose all your data, unlike an analog tape. That's the reason I have one for each of my PCs.

Paul

Thanks for the feedback. I have a DVR so I guess I want UPS functionality. Considering I have at most $300 for this, I am kind of looking at the three products below. Which one should I choose?

They all provide AVR and UPS. I guess I would like to choose the one with better surge protection. This is where I am not clear. Does the number of joules indicate this? If this is the case, the Belkin looks like the winner, though a bit more pricey than the other two. Still not sure whether the sine waves are important or not.

Belkin AP30800-10 (HERE (http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_detail.process?Product_Id=195291))
* 5500 joules surge protection
* Does not say anything about sine waves. Probably not.

Tripp Lite OMNIVS1500XL (HERE (http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2730))
* 1920 joules
* LINE MODE: Sine wave line voltage 120V (-18% / +8%)
* BATTERY MODE: PWM sine wave output 120V +/-5%

One of the APC's SmartUPS such as SUA1500 (1500VA) (HERE (http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SUA1500))
* 459 Joules
* claims pure sine waves

or should I consider something else?

Thanks a lot for the feedback

Mike,

I can't argue with the psychological benefit. If it makes you feel better, that's fine. We're not talking about a big chunk of money. However, you do bring up good point- the DVR. I would definitely have a UPS in this case. If the drive power is removed while a write sequence is occuring, you could crash the drive format and lose all your data, unlike an analog tape. That's the reason I have one for each of my PCs.

Paul

There is no definite answer. It depends on the power supply design as to whether it can tolerate a square wave. Fourier analysis tells us that you will get a lot of harmonics of the 60hz fundamental sine wave and if the power supply cannot reject or filter them out, they could cause problems with noise. However, it's doubtful that damage could occur. For the few minutes that the UPS is active as the set shuts down, you are correct, the noise is not an issue. The real question is, "do you need a UPS?" I say no. As I explained in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=572213&page=2&pp=30

A UPS is of little benefit as opposed to a good surge protector.

Paul

Thanks Paul. I've had a RPTV in my main room for the last 6 years with no UPS. Last summer and this there were a lot of power outages due to the need to upgrade my amp service to 200 amp (kept blowing the main breaker). The RPTV has not had any problems so far.

I also agree it is good to put a UPS on the DVR. For that there is no need to spend big bucks. I have a $39 APC UPS on my DVR that will power the thing for close to 40 minutes in a power outage.

My $0.02,

I don't think that any commercially available UPS outputs a square wave. Even the very cheapest units from 4 years ago are going to output a modified sine wave, which will basically look like a staircase in the shape of a sine wave. Will there be high frequency harmonics? Sure. Your $1000 harmonic power meter will show you that there's a lot of distortion in the signal. Does it matter? No. What you have to remember is what electronic devices (including non-CRT TVs, with the possible exception of the bulb) do with AC power. Step 1, rectify to DC. Modern power supplies that perform this conversion really are remarkable in that they are very cheap, efficient, and robust. Chances are that the device in question will have a switchmode power supply, which works by stepping down the line AC, performing a simple rectification, using a switching transistor to create a square wave of varying duty cycle, which is passed through an LC network (with output feedback to the switching transistor) to create a very stable output DC voltage.

So you can see that inside the power supply, you have an AC => AC => DC => AC => DC conversion going on with the final DC output being VERY tolerant to poor quality input. A switchmode power supply specified to run off of 120VAC (RMS) would do just fine with 90V or 150V for that matter. They also have big enough capacitors on DC stages to ride through a several cycle interruption in input power.

Bottom line: don't bother with a line conditioner or worry about running off the output of a cheap UPS.

Well I've been reading this forum for a while and have definately learned alot. I was disappointed to hear that the belkin AP30800-10 and belkin pf60 could not be daisy chained together...(ups into wall and pf60 into ups). I was wondering if this would be a better solution; plug both the ups and pf60 into the wall and plug only the tv (samsung 6168) into the ups and everything else (receiver, dvd, hd box, xbox) into the pf60. Nothing is connected to my tv except the av reciever via component cable. This way the tv bulb can have the protection from overheating in case of a power outage and the surge protection would be enough since only the tv is plugged in, granted the line conditioning would be lost for the tv. The rest of the equipment would get the line conditioning and since they are doing most of the processing I feel like it would be a good idea. Just looking for anyone's opinion on if this is a good idea or just a waste of money.


NicK

Belkin announced at CEDIA that it is coming out with a new PureAV UPS. It is called the PureAV Hybrid AVU1500 UPS with PureFilter Technology, model AP51300-10.

Some of the features as announced by Belkin are:

• Phase 4 PureFilter Technology isolates and eliminates AC line “noise”
• Uninterruptible Power Supply provides backup power for DVRs, Media Center PCs, or any device for which you want to preserve system settings
• Automatic Voltage Regulation maintains constant voltage by increasing low voltage and decreasing high voltage without the aid of the battery
• Unique IR Blaster allows projectors or projection TVs to cool their lamps and prevent damage from excessive heat before shutting down
• SmartStage™ Shutdown Technology shuts down your equipment in stages, prolonging battery life and reserving power for the most critical devices
• 13 outlets
• 8000 joules
• $500,000 Connected Equipment Warranty
• Hot-swappable replaceable battery

For more information see:

http://www.powerpulse.net/news/story.php?storyID=13977

http://www.belkin.com/pressroom/releases/uploads/09_08_05HybridAVU15001.html

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050908005319&newsLang=en

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/160913.html

From the feature list this models compares to the Panamax MAX® 1500-UPS and to the APC S-15.

What do you make of this new Belkin Kal???

I saw the prototype and it certainly look snazzy. The IR blaster is a neat feature for those with lamp-based displays.

Kal

Thanks yayi...that will solve all by problems...its about time they came out with an all-in-one...hopefully i'll be able to find it well below the msrp

Great conversation on surge protection and lightning strikes. I recently suffered a lightning strike which totalled about $35,000 in damages and 6 months to repair. The first month was spent researching the issue and I am happy to pass along a little knowledge. Grounding is too complicated a subject to go into detail here but I'll hit the highlights.

The single most important component of any electrical system is the grounding system and the most overlooked. This is especially true where HT equipment or computers are in use. First absolute fact, No surge protector or UPS will withstand a direct lightning strike but it is a rare occurence this happens. The best hope is to shunt the majority of overcurrent to ground through a good ground. In order to do that properly and for high end electrical components to function properly over time (surges and sags degrade electrical components over time) the grounding system must follow a couple of rules.

1. Any home or business must have a single grounding point. It can be a loop system all tied together or tied to single ground rod. Multiple grounds, i.e. one at the service entrance, one at the cable or phone entry, grounds tied to water pipes, etc. invite lightings strikes or large surges to jump between gounding points and do much damage to the system. If the overcurrent comes up through the grounding system it bypasses all the expensive surge protectors you just installed.

2. Your grounding system should have the least amount of resistance possible. I recommend less than 12 ohms where HT equipment is in use. This may be pretty hard to accomplish in areas with sandy soils etc. but that doesn't mean you shouldn't get the best you can. Your electrican can drive longer and larger grounds rods or tie in multiple rods to a ground system to achieve the least amount of resistance. Periodically check the ground clamp at the ground rod for corrosion which will increase resistance. Building inspectors rarely look at the ground rods and frankly the building codes are not adequate for modern electronic equipment.

3. Once you have the best ground you can achieve then utilize a Whole House surge system mounted in the electrical panel (about $100) as the first line of defense. Next utilize secondary surge protection at the point of usage. This thread has excellent recommendations on types of equipment. You don't need to spend a grand on surge protectors but don't buy the really cheap stuff either. Frankly the more capacity to absorb the overcurrents the better. Purchase a conditioner to eliminate the sags which are just as harmful to your equipment over time. Some surge protectors interfere with X-10 or PLC signals, so if your are utilizing a home automation or lighting system in your home make sure the surge protector is compatable with these systems.

4. Perform an audit of all ways that stray electrical currents can enter your home, cable, phones, metal water pipes, OTA antenna, static blocks, etc. Make sure each point of entry is grounded and all tied to the same ground. Each electrical system has differing levels of resistance & stray currents in its grounding system, therefore a cable or data connection may carry current from you neighbors house which will interfere with the operation of your system.

Sorry for the length but checking your ground system should be the first step in protecting your HT equipment, property and your life.

Good first post, Ironworker.

Ironworker, I totally agree with you and your assessment. Fortunately, a six foot iron rod buried in the ground is not the only option now days for a grounding system. I have done some research on this issue and have found that the "threats" that you mentioned can be addressed by the following items.

Grounding system: There are several systems out on the market but I have found that Lyncole makes one of the best grounding systems. The XIT grounding system comes in a straight or L shaped configuration. The L shaped being the easiest for residential installations.

Circuit protection: The Environmental Potentials EP2000 technology has been widely used in the manufacturing industry and has been adapted for residential usage.

This is only my option and I consider myself an audiophile with no engineering background unless you consider a 20 year old physics major as background.

I have talked in depth with both companies about their technology and products due to my interested in "clean power and protection" for my system. Just my 2 cents worth.

P.S. I hold no ties to either company, monetarily or otherwise. But if they are willing to pay me for this information, I am sure we can work something out. :rolleyes:

Fedreams: The XIT system looks nice, using a water feed system to maintain maximum ground potential is a nice idea. Very good for dry or sandy climates.

Thanks for the info.

I am not familiar with the Eviromental Potentials product. In regards to ground rods, there are a number of different diameters and lengths. At my home I drove six 3/4" grounds rods with one going to a depth of 22' before I got the resistance I was looking for. In rocky areas grounding can be accomplished with laying the bare conductor horizontally. Its not necessarily which system is the best just that everything is tied together and least amount of resistance is accomplished. In lightning prone areas, I highly recommend a ground loop around the house or business with rods driven along the loop.

I spoke with my "go to" expert on grounding and he has high praise for the chemical grounding systems. He states that they are very expensive but the ground actually improves over time. He has installed grounding systems such as these with 1/2 ohm of resistance.

Ironworker,

Environmental Potentials has been mentioned numerous times throughout this thread with input from one of the staff/designers of the company, djoseph52.

The chemical grounding systems are installed in the usually commercial situations, but Lyncole has installed them into some larger homes as well as home equipped with recording studios and the like.

It would be nice to find a more affordable solution similar to the Lyncole XIT.

What is the easiest way to measure what the resistance is on my home's ground now, or is this not really possible?

Jetlag,

There are several ways to measure resistance in ground systems but the only way that makes sense for a homeowner is to ask an electrican if they have a Clamp On ground resistance tester. These instruments sell for about $700-$800 which is to expensive to purchase just for that purpose. Most commerical electricans will carry them. Its takes about 5 minutes to check the resistance.

Is the Square D whole-house surge suppressor mentioned in the Stereophile article any good?

Is the Square D whole-house surge suppressor mentioned in the Stereophile article any good?


Which model did they mention? I am having my current 100 amp panel upgraded to a 200 amp service. I have requested surge protection and supplied him with some literature from Leviton, MGS. He say's he uses a model by square D but did not know the model # off the top of his head. Hope it meets the requested specs otherwise it doesn't get installed. Also hope it is never really needed.

If you are referring to the article that I wrote, there was no specific model mentioned. My electrician faxed me a spec sheet and it looked as if it would be fine. Unfortunately, I no longer have that fax and I ended up using an Environmental Potentials unit.

I believe there's no magic here. The unit has to be fast acting, high current rating and have indicators that its components are functional.

Kal

Is the Square D whole-house surge suppressor mentioned in the Stereophile article any good?

Square D makes excellent products but I ended up using the Leviton Whole House SP because the tech. guys at Square D couldn't tell me if their system interfered with X-10 or PLC signals which are abundant in my home.

If you are looking into a whole whole surge protector you could also look into this;

http://www.sea.siemens.com/reselec/product/rzcbsa.html

It is called a Circuit Breaker and Secondary Surge Arrester. It plugs into the panel, and replaces your normal circuit breaker so it takes up no extra room.

-Joe

Tks to everyone for the info - especially wojtek posts. I am receiving delivery of a 50" Panasonic 500U consumer model next week. I wanted to purchase the new 8UK commercial model, but couldn't find enough help or anyone locally who could help me if I needed it. So, chickened out and paid the extra dough for the commercial model because of all the inputs.

Now, I'm researching power protection. I'm glad I didn't purchase yet and read these posts. Almost bought a Monster Power Center at Radio Shack. Local home theater guys are pushing Panamax. Ram Elec said Monster made good on a claim and sent out $10k to one guy within a week of his equipment failure. Does that mean the monster didn't protect him?

Walmart Power Sentry - $30
Monster Power Center - $120
Panamax - $??

The whole house idea seems good, but am afraid to ask what that would cost. I'm in Colo and we had a power failure just last week that has damaged a .dll file on my computer and I haven't even tried to figure it out yet. I seem to be able to use my PC okay, but get an occassional error message on boot up.

Tks for the resources for SM surge suppressors, wojtek!

Whole house protection can be had from the model I posted above for under $150.

-Joe

Whole house protection can be had from the model I posted above for under $150.

-Joe

It looks good.
It would certainly seem to provide protection for more castastrophic events, which is always welcome. And maybe reduce the overall noise level at the outlets.
Something that can still allow you to use UPS backup and even over/under protection (ie; Panamax) which will open the connection (best protection) at specific outlets where sensitive equipment is plugged in.
We are moving to a new home in a few months, I am considering that option.

What are X-10 and PLC signals?

What are X-10 and PLC signals?

Programmable logic controllers, etc. .. communication over power lines (instead of wireless or running separate wires) in your home to control various devices remotely.

http://www.smarthome.com/prodindex.asp?catid=2

I purchased a Panamax 4310 - they wanted to upsell me to the next model up which I think was the 5300. Can anyone tell me if the 4310 has any history of catching on fire as some MOVs have reportedly done?

Also wondering if I could have gotten by with the Panamax strip instead.

Help! After reading all these threads I am more knowledgable but more confused. I was recommended UPS with a power strip & surge protector; power conditioner pf60, etc. Due to a lot of power surges where I live, I am looking for maximum surge protection. The UPS with power strip will plug into wall receptical and then the power conitioner, hd cable box, tv, dvd plug into the UPS power strip? is that right? or is there a device that will provide power-strip, UPS, conditioner all in one for a 60"rptv? and it should be for at least for 2900 joules, right? Then I have to decide to get a MOV or SM UPS/Surge suppressor. p.s. I'm a electrically challenged person so I hope one of you knowledgable guys will help. Thanks in advance.

Help! After reading all these threads I am more knowledgable but more confused. I was recommended UPS with a power strip & surge protector; power conditioner pf60, etc. Due to a lot of power surges where I live, I am looking for maximum surge protection. The UPS with power strip will plug into wall receptical and then the power conitioner, hd cable box, tv, dvd plug into the UPS power strip? is that right? or is there a device that will provide power-strip, UPS, conditioner all in one for a 60"rptv? and it should be for at least for 2900 joules, right? Then I have to decide to get a MOV or SM UPS/Surge suppressor. p.s. I'm a electrically challenged person so I hope one of you knowledgable guys will help. Thanks in advance.


APC, Belkin, Panamax and others all make a one unit does all item. The ones that incorporate a UPS are more expensive. When you are talking surge protection are you talking large voltage swings or short dips from large current appliances. Proper surge protection should be done in steps. First starting at your service panel use a quality square-d or leviton surge protector. Then supply a quality surge protector at your equipment or all in one HT device that incorporates surge protection.
If you are looking to correct for voltage swings from high current appliances within the home, then a device that has AVR (automatic voltage regulation) will help. Typically AVR will correct in the following manner: if the voltage sags or swells about 8-10 volts the AVR will switch transformer taps and bring you as close to nominal as possible.
There are also some high end AVR's that correct for every volt: 1 volt drop will be corrected by 1 volt increase etc.
If you are looking to supply short term emergency power for the items you mentioned. You should look at something with 750-1000 VA capacity.

This thread is great. Like a lot of people I almost made a big mistake thinking that a Monster 1600 was all I needed based on the recommendations of the folks at Best Buy.

All I really want is to protect my DLP TV, but can't afford to spend the money to buy the Empower or the PS Audio. If I buy a Triplite UPS and a Brickwall I should be protected from weather induced power outages. I would love to have a regulator or conditioner but the items it would take to do that cost alomst as much as my TV.

One thing I am not sure about, based on this thread it appeared that people were recommending Wall --> Brickwall --> UPS --> TV. In other areas it talked about how bad the power from the UPS typically is. Wouldn't it be better to reverse the UPS and the Brickwall?

Thanks for everybodies input on this thread.

UofAZCats,

I am just finishing my first HT.

I used a brickwall to UPS, then to projector setup. I searched for a long time on UPS's & found one with the "pure Sine" wave & a very very short milli-second transfer. I then called Optoma & asked if that time delay would cause the projector to shut down. The two companies agreed that the mix should be a good one.

I haven't yet tested this by unplugging the ups from the brick (or just throwing that switch) but that is due to not having everything hooked up yet.

If you want the UPS brand I purchased, PM me.

Bill

This thread is great. Like a lot of people I almost made a big mistake thinking that a Monster 1600 was all I needed based on the recommendations of the folks at Best Buy.

All I really want is to protect my DLP TV, but can't afford to spend the money to buy the Empower or the PS Audio. If I buy a Triplite UPS and a Brickwall I should be protected from weather induced power outages. I would love to have a regulator or conditioner but the items it would take to do that cost alomst as much as my TV.

One thing I am not sure about, based on this thread it appeared that people were recommending Wall --> Brickwall --> UPS --> TV. In other areas it talked about how bad the power from the UPS typically is. Wouldn't it be better to reverse the UPS and the Brickwall?

Thanks for everybodies input on this thread.

I would stick with Wall --> Brickwall --> UPS --> TV. The only time you have to worry about the ups supposed bad power is when you actually have a transfer over to battery. When running on inverter the power output is generally not as pure as the utility sine wave. Although on the higher end UPS units it can be quite good.

I would stick with Wall --> Brickwall --> UPS --> TV. The only time you have to worry about the ups supposed bad power is when you actually have a transfer over to battery. When running on inverter the power output is generally not as pure as the utility sine wave. Although on the higher end UPS units it can be quite good.

I would apply the same for ZeroSurge units. In fact, it is recommended that way.

I know some of you were interested in the APC S series which are hard to find. I am able to get these so if anyone is interested, please feel free to drop me a note!

I recently had a lightning strike on my house and more than a dozen devices got blown out. Here is what I found out about APC UPS:

I have my cable modem, wireless router directly on a 300VA APC UPS and one computer on a power strip with surge protection behind the UPS and another computer on another power strip (with built-in surge protection of course) directly to AC power. All my networking devices died and all the computers are fine with the exception of network cards inside (surge travels from the router through network cable to the network cards).

No, the lightning is not from cable coax but rather electric wires because I opened my cable modem and router myself.

I know this is a VERRY old post but I cannot resist postign having gone through what sounds like the same thing at a small office I take care of (and i must be bored). To me it sounds like the surge came in via the coax as was the case with me. Just becuase the router/modem were being powered by the UPS does not mean that they will be protected from surges from the cable co.'s coaxial. As for your 'other' equipment that was fried (tv's, vcr, etc.), they do not have to be connected to the router with CAT5 to be affected as the surge from the coax polluted the ground and went into all the equipment connected to that circuit. Sounds like your whole problem would have never happend had you had a good surge suppressor on your coax. Also when you say you opened the router and modem, how did you verify 100% that the surge came via the power supply? Please explain in detail if you end up seeing this. Thanks

First time poster long term reader. I encountered a problem with my Boston PVR1000n sub,after three great years of use the sub quit powering up. I thought that I may have blown a fuse but after replacing it the sub still would not work. I sent it out to be repaired and the shop said there was nothing wrong with the sub. When I took it back home it still would not fire up. I then took it back to the shop and sure enough it fired up. Thinking I hooked it up incorrectly I then went back home and tried it again. After contacting Boston tech dept. told me to check the power in my house and make sure it was a continous 120v. I was very concerned about this problem because my Toshiba 36 inch HDTV also had experinced a problem(worked great for 6 years). I then went to this forum and read all thirty one pages and was convinced that I needed to buy a Belkin an 30800-10 which has AVR ( automatic voltage regulation) and retails for 599.00. I was disappointed when I could not locate the product in any retail store,discontinued I was told. So I got back to researching and found it difficult to buy any surge protection with AVR for a reasonable price. Monster, I was told by a local retailor was the only AVR with surge protection. I then stumbled across the Belkin F6B750-AVR which was on the Apple web site. I went down to a local retailer and they sold me the product for under $100.00. I took it home and couldn't wait to test it. I am now happy to say that my sub works great!!!! I also purchased a Brick-Wall and plan to add that to the rest of my gear. Hope this helps someone.

Don't go crazy here. First of all I wouldn't buy monster anything.....all marketing and overpriced stuff. They most likely don't even make the products either, they buy someone elses and put their name and packaging on it.

I bought a 20 dollar surge protector.....it came with a warranty that if any electronic device blows out due to a power surge they will replace it up to like something rediculous like 100K bucks. For around 50 bucks you can get a really powerful one that might even salvage your stuff if your home was struck my lightning....(rare). Just avoid the big brand names and 100$+ price tags.

First time poster long term reader. I encountered a problem with my Boston PVR1000n sub,after three great years of use the sub quit powering up. I thought that I may have blown a fuse but after replacing it the sub still would not work. I sent it out to be repaired and the shop said there was nothing wrong with the sub. When I took it back home it still would not fire up. I then took it back to the shop and sure enough it fired up. Thinking I hooked it up incorrectly I then went back home and tried it again. After contacting Boston tech dept. told me to check the power in my house and make sure it was a continous 120v. I was very concerned about this problem because my Toshiba 36 inch HDTV also had experinced a problem(worked great for 6 years). I then went to this forum and read all thirty one pages and was convinced that I needed to buy a Belkin an 30800-10 which has AVR ( automatic voltage regulation) and retails for 599.00. I was disappointed when I could not locate the product in any retail store,discontinued I was told. So I got back to researching and found it difficult to buy any surge protection with AVR for a reasonable price. Monster, I was told by a local retailor was the only AVR with surge protection. I then stumbled across the Belkin F6B750-AVR which was on the Apple web site. I went down to a local retailer and they sold me the product for under $100.00. I took it home and couldn't wait to test it. I am now happy to say that my sub works great!!!! I also purchased a Brick-Wall and plan to add that to the rest of my gear. Hope this helps someone.

I think you may have a wiring or load problem that the AVRwas able to mask. High current devices like amps and subs draw a high current for a breif period during start up. I think your sub's power circuit was dropping out on startup due to a voltage drop. One question I have is would the sub power up if it was connected to an outlet in a different room. If it does then I would recommed you have the load checked on the branch circuit that feeds your home theater. You may also have a bad connection at the receptical or in a junction box.

I having been looking for a good UPS that puts out good power. As I had read on this thread, the goal is a pure sine wave. Most UPS's I have seen are targeted at computers, but some of the "network" UPS mention they have pure sine waves. Is this what I need? I am not trying to improve my picture (and certainly don't want to make it worse), I am just trying to protect my DLP TV.

Also there are many different "sizes" of UPS. How do I determine what size I need?

Thanks for everybody's input.

I having been looking for a good UPS that puts out good power. As I had read on this thread, the goal is a pure sine wave. Most UPS's I have seen are targeted at computers, but some of the "network" UPS mention they have pure sine waves. Is this what I need? I am not trying to improve my picture (and certainly don't want to make it worse), I am just trying to protect my DLP TV.

Also there are many different "sizes" of UPS. How do I determine what size I need?

Thanks for everybody's input.

If your budget allows I would try and select a ups with pure sine output. If you are just looking to protect the tv a 350VA capacity unit should suffice. Panamax and Monster and APC make units geared toward home theater application. If it is just used to power the tv for a normal shutdown upon power failure then pure sine is not a necessity but still nice to use.

Thanks for the advice, I did try powering up the sub in different rooms that were on different circuits. As far as power, I have an electrician coming over to check out for any drops and surges. I have taken a couple of reading myself and have not seen any real changes.

Does anyone know if somebody has a surge supressor using gas discharge tubes?

FYI, the brickwall's are on sale this weekend at 5% off! Thinking about getting one after reading this thread. The only concern is that it doesn't condition the power, but it sounds like it does a great job of surge suppression and filtering.

*URL removed b/c of newbie status*

Does anyone know if somebody has a surge supressor using gas discharge tubes?


Hiding,

I am curious, you must be a Radio guy? If you are trying to protect against Lightning damage with gas discharge tubes, it probably will be inadequate. I was struck by lightning last year and had gas discharge blocks on my VHF antenna wire including several static discharge grounding blocks. The lightning jumped over all of them after blowing them to pieces.

After considerable research I have found that if you will place a 2 Iron on top of your antenna pole that you will be protected from lightning, because even God can't hit a 2 Iron!

(sorry, wrong thread)

[/QUOTE] natbumpo

a) any well made surge protector will fail open when a MOV blows (meaning it will not pass power any longer) - so no fire is needed to tell if a MOV blows. Also, if a MOV fails you will know it because it will be burnt and you can smell it.

Off hand I would guess there is not to many well made surge protectors out their. As a broadcast engineer I see surge damage rather often as most transmitter sites attract lightning with antennas sticking up in the air. Recently opened up the back door of a transmitter to hook up a new remote control system. About the first thing I noticed was the two MOVs across the 220 AC input to the transmitter were blown apart. Have no idea when that occurred leaving the transmitter without surge protection. Smell, well probably when it happened. What if your not home for a few days will the smell still be their? Most point of use surge protectors with MOVs have the MOV shorting the surge to ground so if they fail and open up your electric strip is still providing power to your equipment. That is why I use and recommend Zero Surge Filters, no MOVs, to my customers for point of use to protect their equipment including their UPS units. I have had to replace several UPS units because of the electronics apparently failed from surges. For transmitter sites I like the Redivolt whole building units with their lifetime free replacement guarantee and $100,000 repair/ replacement warranty. Had a transmitter site where a bird stepped in the wrong place on a three phase transformer taking out the Redivolt unit and protecting a very expensive transmitter. The Redivolt unit was replaced free under warranty

But Redivolt uses MOV's. :(

I've been reading pieces of this thread which contains a lot of good information. My situtation is that I experience a low voltage situation which effects a lot of my equipment. (Mainly the lights will flicker if I turn my receiver/tv or dishwasher on). I live in apartment building where I don't have access to the electrical circuits.

In my research I am trying to compare the Panamax m1500 conditioner with backup ups vs the APC s15 (my system has around 750 watts of power draw). I was told that I should look at something with a UPS since a voltage regulator would just try to draw more power from the circuits vs getting the additional power from the battery.

What are you experiences with these devices? Also how would the upcoming belkin device compare?

Thanks,

Jeff

I've been reading pieces of this thread which contains a lot of good information. My situtation is that I experience a low voltage situation which effects a lot of my equipment. (Mainly the lights will flicker if I turn my receiver/tv or dishwasher on). I live in apartment building where I don't have access to the electrical circuits.

In my research I am trying to compare the Panamax m1500 conditioner with backup ups vs the APC s15 (my system has around 750 watts of power draw). I was told that I should look at something with a UPS since a voltage regulator would just try to draw more power from the circuits vs getting the additional power from the battery.

What are you experiences with these devices? Also how would the upcoming belkin device compare?

Thanks,

Jeff


I have been following the UPS units for HT application as well. Both the panamax and APC should fit your application. Just keep in mind that they typically will not switch to battery unless the dip goes below or above a customer programmable parameter. Otherwise the correction is done with the AVR technology. I like the panamax unit slightly better due to the fact that it has a user interface program if you have a HTPC. The belkin unit looks like a competitor as well still have not seen any specs on it though.
Have you also looked at Richarg Grey products, seems to cover the high end audio/ video market.

Richard Grey power (http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/)

After considerable research I have found that if you will place a 2 Iron on top of your antenna pole that you will be protected from lightning, because even God can't hit a 2 Iron!

So true!!! :D

Application is everything. If you want protection from surges (over or under voltage) but have no problem with equipment being powered off, Panamax protection will OPEN the line. Afterall, no connection is the best protection. But if you use Zero Surge (or Brickwall) that may not be necessary.
As far as conditioner/UPS types, personally I like APC and Panamax products. Long time proven reputation. Same goes for TrippLite.
I would have no qualms using a ZeroSurge or Brickwall at the outlet before a conditioner or UPS. Excellent solution for everyday fluctuations. It may be overkill for the best APC, etc. units.
RediVolts at the AC box are also good. The 'earlier' it can react to a problem, the better. In general, they become sacrificial where there is a real problem. Which is better than the alternative.

I like the panamax unit slightly better due to the fact that it has a user interface program if you have a HTPC.
As does the S-15 via USB.

Kal

As does the S-15 via USB.

Kal

Does APC's S15 have a user interface dedicated to HT usage or are thet using the default home user ups interface?

Dunno. Never tried it. The disc is still sealed.

Kal

Dunno. Never tried it. The disc is still sealed.

Kal
I don't see any specific software for the S15 other than "Powerchute Personal edition v 2.0". I am running this on my multimedia PC and it supplies minimal information. I have a similar belkin ups on my upstairs pc and their bulldog monitoring software supplies much more info as well as graphing. I would think for the premium price of the s15 it would give the user more information through the software interface.

Mebbe. OTOH, there's rarely a PC in the same room as my system and there is no additional information that I need. Sure, you can probably monitor and analyze the operations but I do not have that need or interest.

Kal

... (my system has around 750 watts of power draw). ...

Jeff,

Certainly I'm not in a position to know, but I'm suspicious of the fact that your A/V System is drawing 750 Watts.

How many Watts are you ascribing to your Reciever?

I bought this one yesterday for $99 at Costco. http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=3071

It is such a good deal that I had to go back today and purchase another one for my computers.

It says PWM sine wave...What is that?...if that's a true sine wave, safe for AV equipment, this may be a good deal.

It says PWM sine wave...What is that?...if that's a true sine wave, safe for AV equipment, this may be a good deal.

It's a stepped sine wave.

PWM Sine Wave
Describes an alternate AC waveform to sine wave and PWM sine wave. Considered a mid-level waveform by most, desirable for all but the most sensitive of critical of computing applications. Rather than the smooth arc typically associated with a sine waveform, a PWM sine wave offers several rectangular steps to help mimic the energy supply of a sine wave. During the 1990's most manufacturers of standby and line interactive UPS systems began providing products with PWM sine wave output. See PWM sine wave and sine wave.

http://www.tripplite.com/support/glossary/detail.cfm?mode=1&range=8

From the same page:
Pseudo Sine Wave See PWM sine wave.

The only thing I don't like about the Tripp Lite SMART 1000LCD UPS is that the display is to bright. At night it becomes a distraction when watching the TV.

Uninvited Guest:

Thanks for the answer and the link...:)

While browsing through Monster website, I noticed the HTS5100MKII was using MOV for surge protection, but it also seems to be using the Monster T2 technology..

T2 is an active electronic microprocessor-controlled circuit that sits in front of the surge protection circuitry in select Monster Power
products. T2 monitors the line, neutral and ground lines and automatically disconnects the PowerCenter from the AC
power line when a long duration low-voltage sag or high-voltage swell occurs (continuous voltage below 80Vrms
or above 132Vrms).
When the voltage sags or swells to these potentially damaging levels, ultra-fast T2 auto-disconnect protection circuitry
shuts down the Monster PowerCenter for 15 seconds. When the under-voltage or over-voltage condition returns
to normal, T2 reconnects the PowerCenter to full operation after 15 seconds. If the fault condition does not clear,
the T2 comparator circuit keeps the unit shut down.
Unlike ordinary power management devices, T2 will shut down your PowerCenter before the MOVs (Metal Oxide
Varistors) and thermal fuses sense an overload condition and sacrifice themselves to protect your connected components.
This will extend the PowerCenter’s life, while providing the system protection you need.

Does anyone know about this technology and how it compares to other NON MOV surge suppressors?

I am using a 20A transient voltage surge suppressor receptacle for my plasma wall mount. My handyman says that the electric service panel 15A circuit breaker has to be replaced w/ a 20A to match the new surge suppressor outlet. My brother says the 15A circuit breaker is OK and I would have to rewire w/ 12/2 Romex if I switched to the 20A circuit breaker.

Please advise!

What is your load? The need for the the larger capacity depends on the load. The fact that the receptacle can handle the higher load is irrelevant if the rest of the circuit is adequate.

While browsing through Monster website, I noticed the HTS5100MKII was using MOV for surge protection, but it also seems to be using the Monster T2 technology..
Does anyone know about this technology and how it compares to other NON MOV surge suppressors?

Non-MOV suppression with large capacity is usually more expensive than MOVs.

The monster technology is very well hyped. Other products have similar low voltage cutoff circuits. If the voltage drops there will be no need for the MOVs to conduct as long as they are subjected to voltages below their rated level. Having the power disconnected protects against the surge that often accompanies the power coming back up or due to switching in the electrical grid. Several brands do the same thing and are likely cheaper. Look at the Panamax and Tripplite products.

I have purchased a Monster powercenter HTS 3500 MKII from a friend for $100 and am planning on using it with my Sony e50a10 along with about 3 other components.

I have read conflicting stories about using a UPS in front of the powercenter. I have an APC bk200 as well as a belkin rs 232 available. Will I be doing more harm than good to my system if I were to use either of those UPS ahead of the MKII? What exactly is affected?

Edit.....sorry guys after spending about an hour I have read this is a widely discussed question however it still seems rather unclear to a newbie like myself......if anyone is familiar with the specific models I mention above and would care to comment on using them together feel free to add any info.

p.s. IM in s florida and also I plan on running an onkyo TX-SR703 driving a pair of Polk SDA 2's, a sony DVPNC85HB DVD changer and will at a later date add to the surround speakers.

Can someone also explain why running a RPTV, or a projector for that matter, and using a UPS with a square sign wave would cause any problems if it used for only a few minutes a few times a year? Motors and other heavy mechanical equipment generally needs a pure sign wave, electronics generally do not. Even if the equipment is more sensitive that a normal PC, who is doing any critical watching of video during a blackout?

Also where is it written that having the fan not on when the the TV is off would decrease the life of the lamp? This sounds like nonsense to someone who has done a lot of work with lamps. I can see if the TV is turned off then on within a minute or two this might be helpful, but not when the TV is turned off and stays off for 5 minutes or more.

-Joe


I read an opinion someplace the fans need to cool the bulb only so that if it is turned on again quickly it wont be damaged. Just having the bulb cool on its own without a fan doesnt hurt it but turning a warm bulb off then on again before it cools can shorten the bulbs life.

Is that information correct? Or am I way off base?

I read an opinion someplace the fans need to cool the bulb only so that if it is turned on again quickly it wont be damaged. Just having the bulb cool on its own without a fan doesnt hurt it but turning a warm bulb off then on again before it cools can shorten the bulbs life.

Is that information correct? Or am I way off base?

You are correct according to converstations that I have had with several manufacturers on the matter.

HELP

I just purchased the Tripplite HT1000 LCD UPS. I tried using the coaxial connection in the UPS by running my coax from the wall into the UPS then into my SA 8300 HD STB. The signal degraded to the point that my digital channels either didn't work at all or degraded severely. I tried multiple sets of coax and both sets of coax jacks on the UPS, non of which improved the signal quality. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I would like to use coax connection on the UPS. THANKS!!!!

I read an opinion someplace the fans need to cool the bulb only so that if it is turned on again quickly it wont be damaged. Just having the bulb cool on its own without a fan doesnt hurt it but turning a warm bulb off then on again before it cools can shorten the bulbs life.

Is that information correct? Or am I way off base?

OK that makes sense. So how does this help you in a blackout? I'm not expecting that you are going to be watching a lot of TV in a blackout. So it the TV shuts off, unless you are going to want to turn it right back on to watch TV the UPS buys you nothing.

Of course there are people who want this setup but the majority of people I would think are not going to to this

In my set up, all I need is 15 seconds until the backup generator kicks in, and my movie continues, so a UPS is a must.

A UPS will keep your Tivo or DVR recording in the event of a blackout, whether or not you are present.

OK that makes sense. So how does this help you in a blackout? I'm not expecting that you are going to be watching a lot of TV in a blackout. So it the TV shuts off, unless you are going to want to turn it right back on to watch TV the UPS buys you nothing.

Of course there are people who want this setup but the majority of people I would think are not going to to this

Actually, a UPS does accomplish something. If the power goes out, but only for a few seconds, the TV will turn back on by itself when power is restored, which is subjecting the bulb to stress that the fan-based cool down is supposed to prevent. Unless you physically unplug it during the outage, there is nothing that can be done to prevent the TV from automatically turning back on. With a UPS, you can either wait to see if the power comes right back, or you can do a normal shutdown. Either way, the bulb hasn't been subjected to a hot start.

A UPS will keep your Tivo or DVR recording in the event of a blackout, whether or not you are present.

I use a UPS on my tivo too.

I use a UPS on my tivo too.

It will do much more good for a recording device, while it can not hurt to have it on a projection display. I believe the fan cooling period does more to protect the lamp from overheating during quick restarts than adding life to the lamp after power is removed.

Actually, a UPS does accomplish something. If the power goes out, but only for a few seconds, the TV will turn back on by itself when power is restored, which is subjecting the bulb to stress that the fan-based cool down is supposed to prevent. Unless you physically unplug it during the outage, there is nothing that can be done to prevent the TV from automatically turning back on. With a UPS, you can either wait to see if the power comes right back, or you can do a normal shutdown. Either way, the bulb hasn't been subjected to a hot start.

Actually, nearly all lamp based units will not allow a restart until the lamp has cooled down. The fact that you have to restart it at all is the problem.

The only TV I have that turns itself back on after a power failure was bought in 1979. All the others stay off. The '79 model has a manual pull-push on/off switch. All the others have remotes and front panel buttons that presumably control relays.

Many modern sets will return to the state that they were in when power was disrupted. Lamp based sets, however are typically temperature protected so that they will not strike anarc on a hot lamp.

The only TV I have that turns itself back on after a power failure was bought in 1979. All the others stay off. The '79 model has a manual pull-push on/off switch. All the others have remotes and front panel buttons that presumably control relays.
I agree, this has been my experience.

Obviously your experience is limited. Lots of sets, perhaps most, will retain the state when power is disrupted and turn back on when power is applied if on when power was lost.

Obviously your experience is limited. Lots of sets, perhaps most, will retain the state when power is disrupted and turn back on when power is applied if on when power was lost.
Thanks for your polite respnse. It was very helpful. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Oh, wait a minute. I posted support for an earlier post that had suggested most sets do not come back on following a loss of power. (LVP protection in some Electrical Design circles. ;) )

My experience may seem "limited" to you, but it is my experience. I have three sets in my home, all by different manufacturers, ranging in age from one-year to thirteen-years. It may seem a small sample set to a man of the TV repair world such as yourself, but it is exactly what I said it was - my experience. :rolleyes:

Ploink.

I never said that your sets don't operate this way. I simply said that your experience is limited, which is a true statement. Your experience may be valid for you but it is still not representative of many products on the market today. I meant no offense, but other readers should not get the idea that it is uncommon for sets to retain the status in the case of power interuption.

Just as you feel the need to validate another readers view with your own, others, like myself, feel it is important to maintain context that represents a more accurate view when readers might be misled.

So lcaillo, you're service manager of a TV repair facility? Is "your experience" based upon working in the profession, or upon the number of sets you've dealt with as a consumer?

I am not sure I understand what you are asking. Why would I report experience with a handful of products I have experienced as a consumer rather than the hundreds that I have experience with professionally. I am not sure that I could reasonably separate the experiences.

Just to give an example, we had a power outage during a storm at the store where I work recently. When the power cam back on, most of the displays came right up. We get units with blown fuses after storms all the time. As soon as you apply some power they try to fire up in many cases, because they were on when the damaging event happened.

I'm a little hesitant to post here as my needs are not as great as many particpants on the thread. Reading 20-25 pages I've learned a lot but that does not mean I understand what I'm dealing with. I still don't know the cause of the event that made me look here, but I know I want to avoid it happening again.

Last weekend we had an extremely short power outage (1 or 2 secs.) which I think was probably cased by a nearby transformer blowing. My PC plugged onto a tiny APC UPS didn't miss a beat, but our 37" Syntax LCD TV plugged into an APC PRO10TV2R surge protector started emitting a hum and the color was badly bollixed up. Fortunately, Microcenter replaced the TV after the service plan company claimed they could find no one to the work.

It seems clear that these TVs are too sensitive for a decent midline surge protector to protect. I am thinking maybe something like the Tripp Lite SMART1000LCD would be in order, along with a surge protector for the coax. Even thats a splurge on our budget right now, but I do not want to experience this again if I can reasonably avoid it.

Can one of you smart guys tell me if I'm sniffing in the right place, or if not what I might ought to be looking at?

Thanks.

I'm a little hesitant to post here as my needs are not as great as many particpants on the thread. Reading 20-25 pages I've learned a lot but that does not mean I understand what I'm dealing with. I still don't know the cause of the event that made me look here, but I know I want to avoid it happening again.

Last weekend we had an extremely short power outage (1 or 2 secs.) which I think was probably cased by a nearby transformer blowing. My PC plugged onto a tiny APC UPS didn't miss a beat, but our 37" Syntax LCD TV plugged into an APC PRO10TV2R surge protector started emitting a hum and the color was badly bollixed up. Fortunately, Microcenter replaced the TV after the service plan company claimed they could find no one to the work.

It seems clear that these TVs are too sensitive for a decent midline surge protector to protect. I am thinking maybe something like the Tripp Lite SMART1000LCD would be in order, along with a surge protector for the coax. Even thats a splurge on our budget right now, but I do not want to experience this again if I can reasonably avoid it.

Can one of you smart guys tell me if I'm sniffing in the right place, or if not what I might ought to be looking at?

Thanks.

I would wonder about a few things regarding your system. First, have you checked your grounding? All incoming lines must be grounded to the ac service ground rod. All connections should be clean and tight and should be as short and direct as possible. Second, were all incoming lines to your system connected through the surge suppressor? Third, did it have low voltage cut-off. If you have power drops frequently this might be a good idea. Finally, did this unit have three way protection, i.e. clamping MOVs between H-G, H-N, and N-G?

I would wonder about a few things regarding your system. First, have you checked your grounding? All incoming lines must be grounded to the ac service ground rod. All connections should be clean and tight and should be as short and direct as possible. Second, were all incoming lines to your system connected through the surge suppressor? Third, did it have low voltage cut-off. If you have power drops frequently this might be a good idea. Finally, did this unit have three way protection, i.e. clamping MOVs between H-G, H-N, and N-G?
Let me add that your suggestion for grounding all incoming lines and connecting them through the surge suppressor should include signal lines such as cableTV, telephone, etc..

Kal

Let me add that your suggestion for grounding all incoming lines and connecting them through the surge suppressor should include signal lines such as cableTV, telephone, etc..

Kal

Too True, I lost over $12K worth of equipment, last year, that I traced to a surge coming in through the ethernet and phone jacks.

I'm not sure I can fuuly address everything mentioned, but I'll do my best.

The APC surge protector has a "site wiring fault indicator" which indicates the circuit is ok and grounded. I have a handheld circuit checker which indicates its OK also. I've looked in the breaker box and all connections appear to be solid, and I've seen the grounding rod outside and that connection appears to be fine also to my eye. Exactly how long that circuit runs is difficult to say, but it could be pretty long.

All devices connected to the TV are plugged into the surge strip, As is the CATV line and an external powered OTR antenna. I selected this model because it had coax protection.

As far as lowvoltage cutoff, I called APC tech support and the first guy said it has a pss through range of 90-140v and cuts off over and below those limits. For the 3 way protection question he referred me to a different APC tech support line, and the guy there didn't know the answer ("it probably does") and could only refer me to some entries on their knowledgebase which seemed to only discuss MOVs generally. So I don't know.

Interestingly, along the way I was told APC does not recommend this surge protector for LCD TVs and started to sell me a line conditioner. Why the heck don't they say this upfront? The package says "Protect TVs, TiVos, DSS boxes & other valuable A/V Equipment". Apparently that does not mean LCD TVs.

By the way, there is no phone line there and there is no path between the ethernet connection and the TV as its connected to a PC plugged into another outlet with its own surge protector.

I'm a little hesitant to post here as my needs are not as great as many particpants on the thread. Reading 20-25 pages I've learned a lot but that does not mean I understand what I'm dealing with. I still don't know the cause of the event that made me look here, but I know I want to avoid it happening again.

Last weekend we had an extremely short power outage (1 or 2 secs.) which I think was probably cased by a nearby transformer blowing. My PC plugged onto a tiny APC UPS didn't miss a beat, but our 37" Syntax LCD TV plugged into an APC PRO10TV2R surge protector started emitting a hum and the color was badly bollixed up. Fortunately, Microcenter replaced the TV after the service plan company claimed they could find no one to the work.

It seems clear that these TVs are too sensitive for a decent midline surge protector to protect. I am thinking maybe something like the Tripp Lite SMART1000LCD would be in order, along with a surge protector for the coax. Even thats a splurge on our budget right now, but I do not want to experience this again if I can reasonably avoid it.

Can one of you smart guys tell me if I'm sniffing in the right place, or if not what I might ought to be looking at?

Thanks.


Just a word of warning on the Tripp Lite 1000LCD... I purchased the same unit and am very happy with the looks of the UPS and the UPS functionality. However, I have seen severe signal degredation in my digital cable channels after using the coax connection on the UPS. I lost some channels complete and had lots of dropouts on most of the others. I tried eleminating the splitter in the coax at the house entrance and feeding the UPS a direct connection and only saw a slight improvment. So just a word of waring the Tripplite may degrade your signal...

Just a word of warning on the Tripp Lite 1000LCD... I purchased the same unit and am very happy with the looks of the UPS and the UPS functionality. However, I have seen severe signal degredation in my digital cable channels after using the coax connection on the UPS. I lost some channels complete and had lots of dropouts on most of the others. I tried eleminating the splitter in the coax at the house entrance and feeding the UPS a direct connection and only saw a slight improvment. So just a word of waring the Tripplite may degrade your signal...

Thanks for the heads up. I was thinking running the coax through a separate device anyhow. Last night, I stumbled across the Tripp Lite OMNI900LCD which appears to be identical to the 1000 except lacks the telephone and coax connection and has a slightly lower power handling limit. I'm pretty sure its more than ample for whats going to be connected to it and saves me $25 to boot.

Let me add that your suggestion for grounding all incoming lines and connecting them through the surge suppressor should include signal lines such as cableTV, telephone, etc..

Kal

Absolutely. Sorry if I was not clear but that is exactly what I meant.

Absolutely. Sorry if I was not clear but that is exactly what I meant.
I assumed that's what you meant but others might not.

BTW, another reason to put everything through the same device is for warranty claims. Having one device and company responsible for all line protection (as i have with the APC S-15) avoids finger-pointing at claim time.

Kal

i bought the monster HTS 1000, according to the website and the package, it has MOV design but a new "tri-mode circuitry" which means if it does take a big hit, it will disconnect everyhting connected to the HTS 1000 and there will be audible and visual alarms notifying you that the there was a big spike, and that the system is disconnected.

so its not immortal like SM technology, but for MOV its a step up, in the sens that after multiple spikes, the MOV wont start letting surges get to yoru components, i guess tahts peace of mind for me, and it also has coaxial surge protection with the same tri mode circuitry, along with all this the stage 2 clean power made a difference, i had interefence bars on my screen that cleared right up using this unit. i recommend it.

I recently purchased a Belkin PureAV 40 via a tip given heere on the forums. It is great and gives me a lot more peace of mind then the mess of powerstrips it replaced. Well now the summer storms and heat are arriving (Washington DC) and our usually reliable power is getting iffy between brownouts, tripped circuits due to too many fans/ac units, and the poweroutages due to storms. I also recently purchased a Samsung HLS-5686W and have read how important it is to put one of these on a UPS. Having lost power three times yesterday I can see why. There is a Triplite 1000VA at the local Costco for a good price. Now can I run the DLP, and an Xbox 36o directly through the UPS and then plug the PureAV-40 with the remaining components into the UPS as well? If not, why is that?

I recently purchased a Belkin PureAV 40 via a tip given heere on the forums. It is great and gives me a lot more peace of mind then the mess of powerstrips it replaced. Well now the summer storms and heat are arriving (Washington DC) and our usually reliable power is getting iffy between brownouts, tripped circuits due to too many fans/ac units, and the poweroutages due to storms. I also recently purchased a Samsung HLS-5686W and have read how important it is to put one of these on a UPS. Having lost power three times yesterday I can see why. There is a Triplite 1000VA at the local Costco for a good price. Now can I run the DLP, and an Xbox 36o directly through the UPS and then plug the PureAV-40 with the remaining components into the UPS as well? If not, why is that?

Just to put things into perspective the Tripplite 1000 should handle a max of 500 Watts. My 50" RPTV, SA8300 HD DVR and Tivo Recorder together draw 280 Watts. As far as the Pure AV 40 goes it would depend how many other components are going to be pugged into it. I did not see any spec on the belkin website as to what voltage the suppression circuitry would start to react to. If the Pure AV 40's voltage suppression protection is low enough it is possible that when the UPS is on battery the voltage peaks would be suppressed by the Pure AV 40, long term operation could lead to the MOV's breaking down and overheating.
Typically the voltage protection and the voltage peaks don't come close enough to be of concern.

I want to wire in a transfer switch to my panel to use a generator to power furnaces, sump pumps, refrigerators and other important stuff like computer and home theater during power outages. Can I put in a whole house surge suppression system to protect these components regardless of where the power is coming from (line or gen)?

I want to wire in a transfer switch to my panel to use a generator to power furnaces, sump pumps, refrigerators and other important stuff like computer and home theater during power outages. Can I put in a whole house surge suppression system to protect these components regardless of where the power is coming from (line or gen)?

Is this transfer switch and generator going to be of adequate size to handle the main panel.
If it is then a panel mounted surge suppressor will provide first line defense. If your transfer switch and gen are only going to be handeling specific loads via a sub panel. Then i would
recommend surge protection be installed in both panels.
Depending on your home theater components I would also recommend a UPS at the home theater. Typical emergency gen/ automatic transfer switch systems have a 7-15 second lag between lights out and emergency power on.

The transfer switch has 10 circuits on it, and is a manual unit. The generator is 5500 watts continuous and 8500 peak. Ideally, I would like to condition the power and protect from surges from both sources.

Is there another choice beside a panel mounted unit? I only have 2 open spots left in my main panel and if I don't have to use them that would be great.

I am just starting to research this. I am a Manufacturing Engineer, not an Electrical Engineer. I really don't know too much about this. Any help is really appreciated.

The transfer switch has 10 circuits on it, and is a manual unit. The generator is 5500 watts continuous and 8500 peak. Ideally, I would like to condition the power and protect from surges from both sources.

Is there another choice beside a panel mounted unit? I only have 2 open spots left in my main panel and if I don't have to use them that would be great.

I am just starting to research this. I am a Manufacturing Engineer, not an Electrical Engineer. I really don't know too much about this. Any help is really appreciated.


Surge supression ideally should be a multi layered defense (panel, receptical and gear).
Most important would be proper connection of the grounds at both panels to avoid differential in grounds.
Just remember when on generator the voltage swings when load demand changes will significantly greater than when on the utility grid. So Home theater powerprotection with AVR capability would be recomended.

The transfer switch has 10 circuits on it, and is a manual unit. The generator is 5500 watts continuous and 8500 peak. Ideally, I would like to condition the power and protect from surges from both sources.

Is there another choice beside a panel mounted unit? I only have 2 open spots left in my main panel and if I don't have to use them that would be great.

I am just starting to research this. I am a Manufacturing Engineer, not an Electrical Engineer. I really don't know too much about this. Any help is really appreciated.

Most generators send out pretty trashy currents especially on start up. Leviton recommends special surge protectors especially designed for generators. General appliances used to be able to handle a wide swing in voltage but this is no longer the case. Many appliances now have circuit boards and they cannot tolerate a wide swing in voltage. I recommend sticking with the whole house surge protection and UPS protection for your delicate home theater equipment

Since you are adding a generator likely you will be off loading your main electrical panel which should free up space by adding a secondary generator panel. If not have your electrican add one.

What about this:

Wall outlet --> to APC power backup/surge protector ---> To Monster Power / Audio Conditioner ----> To HDTV


TO MUCH ???

What about this:

Wall outlet --> to APC power backup/surge protector ---> To Monster Power / Audio Conditioner ----> To HDTV


TO MUCH ???Too much and too little. I suggest:
Whole house surge protector ---> Wall outlet --> to APC power backup/surge protector ----> To HDTV

Too much and too little. I suggest:
Whole house surge protector ---> Wall outlet --> to APC power backup/surge protector ----> To HDTV

Whole house surge protector not gonna happen.

So .. then I guess I am good with my thoughts on .. Wall outlet --> to APC power backup/surge protector ----> To HDTV

I live in Canada and my power goes down slim and none (MAYBE once every 3 years). I also experience very little if EVER an instance where my lights dim.

In 8 years in my house have NEVER lost and gear due to power fluxuation.

I just don't want the APC fighting the Power conditioner. Just if my power EVER does go down my set will give me time to turn it off. Or am I better off with just the Power Conditioner ??

And it is obvious you guys are A **** LOAD into this (like audiophiles with power instead) ... when I say APC I mean something like this

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000085OXN.01._AA280_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

The BACK-UPS ES 500 Battery Backup and surge protection Unit is the EXACT one I have.

** Double Post **

Either the APC or the Monster, not both.