Either the APC or the Monster, not both.

If you had to pick one ... which would it be ??

BTW, thanks for the reply

I guess the Monster would kill two birds with one stone right ??

If you had to pick one ... which would it be ??Dunno. I have equipment from both companies but nothing like the one you showed.

BTW, thanks for the reply
I guess the Monster would kill two birds with one stone right ??Which Monster? Does it also protect the incoming signal lines? If so, yes.

Which Monster? Does it also protect the incoming signal lines? If so, yes.

Yes it does ... so that answers my question.

Thank a bunch. Much appreciated.

Cheers

BTW .. it is this one

http://www.monstercable.com/power/productPagePower.asp?pin=1901&LastPage=Home%20Theater%20Power

Looking into surge protection, voltage regulation, and battery backup but not sure what I need and don't need.
This thread has a lot of good if not conflicting/confusing information. Here is where I'm at - equipment is denon 3803 avr, sharp 32" conv tube tv: dish 625 dvr, panasonic 5 disc dvd or according the manufacturer's specs about 1133 watts with everything on and drawing power. I measured my current with a radio shack dmm tonight and it was around 115.x tonight sometimes 114 or 116 but mainly 115 this was watching tv with the receiver doing sound and the dvr running. Is this decent or not?

I am debating a few different options.
1) Either an apc j15 or tripplite smart 1500lcd ups stand alone.
2) A zerosurge/brickwall protector and then a ups like the triplite.
3) Open to suggestions.

Thanks

Looking into surge protection, voltage regulation, and battery backup but not sure what I need and don't need.
This thread has a lot of good if not conflicting/confusing information. Here is where I'm at - equipment is denon 3803 avr, sharp 32" conv tube tv: dish 625 dvr, panasonic 5 disc dvd or according the manufacturer's specs about 1133 watts with everything on and drawing power. I measured my current with a radio shack dmm tonight and it was around 115.x tonight sometimes 114 or 116 but mainly 115 this was watching tv with the receiver doing sound and the dvr running. Is this decent or not?

I am debating a few different options.
1) Either an apc j15 or tripplite smart 1500lcd ups stand alone.
2) A zerosurge/brickwall protector and then a ups like the triplite.
3) Open to suggestions.

Thanks

Your choice would depend in the future of your HT. Do you plan on purchasing a dlp,lcd, lcos or plasma anyrime in the near future?
If so option1 would be a likely future proof choice, also consider the apc "S" series or panamax product.
Otherwise option 2 is fine, use the UPS for the dvr. Putting the crt on the ups would greatly reduce its run time. Typical momentary starting current for a crt is high, if not accounted for in the ups sizing you can actually cause the ups to transfer transfer when not needed.

Most generators send out pretty trashy currents especially on start up. Leviton recommends special surge protectors especially designed for generators. General appliances used to be able to handle a wide swing in voltage but this is no longer the case. Many appliances now have circuit boards and they cannot tolerate a wide swing in voltage. I recommend sticking with the whole house surge protection and UPS protection for your delicate home theater equipment

Since you are adding a generator likely you will be off loading your main electrical panel which should free up space by adding a secondary generator panel. If not have your electrican add one.

Is there any kind of surge suppressor that I can put in the line between the transfer switch and the generator? What about the between the meter and the main circuit box? Any chance there is one solution for both?

The generator will only be used during power outtages which seem to occur in my neck of the woods 1 or 2 times of the year for extended periods.

One other thing, I have surge suppression at my computer, HTS, but I have heard that my high efficiency furnace will have trouble with the generator and the circuit board might get blown out. Should I put surge suppression at the furnace also? Am I lucky that I ran the furnaces (I have 2 in my house) for 5 days with no issues?

Most generators send out pretty trashy currents especially on start up. Leviton recommends special surge protectors especially designed for generators. General appliances used to be able to handle a wide swing in voltage but this is no longer the case. Many appliances now have circuit boards and they cannot tolerate a wide swing in voltage. I recommend sticking with the whole house surge protection and UPS protection for your delicate home theater equipment

Since you are adding a generator likely you will be off loading your main electrical panel which should free up space by adding a secondary generator panel. If not have your electrican add one.

Is there any kind of surge suppressor that I can put in the line between the transfer switch and the generator? What about the between the meter and the main circuit box? Any chance there is one solution for both?

The generator will only be used during power outtages which seem to occur in my neck of the woods 1 or 2 times of the year for extended periods.

One other thing, I have surge suppression at my computer, HTS, but I have heard that my high efficiency furnace will have trouble with the generator and the circuit board might get blown out. Should I put surge suppression at the furnace also? Am I lucky that I ran the furnaces (I have 2 in my house) for 5 days with no issues?

Robert,

I exchanged multiple emails and phone conversations with Doug over the last week and, in fact, spoke with him late this afternoon to place an order. Possibly something happened to your message, but I found his responses quite prompt. I'd suggest you try again.

Good luck,
Will

i've been reading this thread for days..it's very informative. i'm just now at page 24 so forgive me if this has been asked in the year between then and now.

anyone who has purchased the EP units have any comments on them. do they work ? are they still working? please PM with model numbers and price paid. oh and how long ago you purchaced it. thanks.

Looking into power for the new Sony A2000 series.. I have yet to have any outages/flickers in my new place, but I would like to provide protection for the TV/bulb. So would I be correct in having the following setup (cannot modify the apt. of course)?

wall---> surge protector---> UPS---> components (tv, receiver, dvd, etc.)

Done. Just finished reading the whole thread. It seems like it has evolved from the original posters like Doug and others talking about a brickwall and a EP15A to much less expensive stuff. From what I read, the EP15A is the absolute best but way to expensive for me. I do not need an APC. What i'm wondering about is the Belkin PureAV PF60. It was mentioned recently in the last few pages. The original posters dismissed any of the cheap power conditioners, like the Monster Power MKII 3500 as just cheap and useless. I guess they are compared to a $2000 piece of equipment.

Is the Belkin PF60 worth $220 to buy? Will it provide any benefit or increase in quality? Will it nullify the damaging effects of a brownout? I'm not purchasing it as a surge protector. Has anyone who bought it noticed a difference. Does it hum like some Monster products do?

Are there any others, around the same price, that are better or comparable?

Looking into power for the new Sony A2000 series.. I have yet to have any outages/flickers in my new place, but I would like to provide protection for the TV/bulb. So would I be correct in having the following setup (cannot modify the apt. of course)?Why not wall ---> surge protector/UPS---> components (tv, receiver, dvd, etc.)?

Done. Just finished reading the whole thread. It seems like it has evolved from the original posters like Doug and others talking about a brickwall and a EP15A to much less expensive stuff. From what I read, the EP15A is the absolute best but way to expensive for me. I do not need an APC. What i'm wondering about is the Belkin PureAV PF60. It was mentioned recently in the last few pages. The original posters dismissed any of the cheap power conditioners, like the Monster Power MKII 3500 as just cheap and useless. I guess they are compared to a $2000 piece of equipment.

Is the Belkin PF60 worth $220 to buy? Will it provide any benefit or increase in quality? Will it nullify the damaging effects of a brownout? I'm not purchasing it as a surge protector. Has anyone who bought it noticed a difference. Does it hum like some Monster products do?

Are there any others, around the same price, that are better or comparable?I thought the PF60 worked fine as a filter and UPS but my sample had hum from the chassis. Nothing through the system but, depending on how close one is to the PF60, one might hear it.

Why not wall ---> surge protector/UPS---> components (tv, receiver, dvd, etc.)?

Ah good point.. something like this?
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE725JP&total_watts=200

If so.. another question. I currently have a cheapo CyberPower UPS. Would the following offer any additional protection?

wall-->cyberpower surge-->APC ups/surge-->components
or
wall-->APC ups/surge-->cyberpower surge-->components

Ah good point.. something like this?
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE725JP&total_watts=200

If so.. another question. I currently have a cheapo CyberPower UPS.This is a 100V unit and there's no indication it puts out a sine wave. I think it's doubtful.

Would the following offer any additional protection?

wall-->cyberpower surge-->APC ups/surge-->components
or
wall-->APC ups/surge-->cyberpower surge-->componentsI know nothing about the CyberPower unit. I also see no reason to daisy-chain units. One capable unit will do.

I thought the PF60 worked fine as a filter and UPS but my sample had hum from the chassis. Nothing through the system but, depending on how close one is to the PF60, one might hear it.

I've got two PF60's on different systems. No hum on either of them. So maybe Kal's had a problem with his unit. YMMV.

I've got two PF60's on different systems. No hum on either of them. So maybe Kal's had a problem with his unit. YMMV.You may be right. OTOH, when I asked Belkin about the chassis noise and whether they wanted to send a replacement unit for review, they said it was normal. That said, if your units are quiet or if, unlike my setup, the unit is far away from the listener, the PF60 is fine and an excellent value.

The Monster Power Reference Center (MPB 2100 HT) which is normally $379.99 is on at Future Shop for a CRAZY SALE PRICE of only $199.

CHECK IT OUT HERE

Specs are a little off on the site. Power rating on mine and Dresdens is 5400 joules and up to $350,000 coverage. And they do not have 10 outlets, they have 12. Dresden is pretty sure the model he and I got are the NEWEST models but are still marked with the sale price. The picture even shows 12 outlets.

The Monster Power Reference Center (MPB 2100 HT) which is normally $379.99 is on at Future Shop for a CRAZY SALE PRICE of only $199.

CHECK IT OUT HERE

.



no link :confused:

Link:

http://www.futureshop.ca/marketing/sale_this_week/proddetailpc.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10027238&catid=10677&PCName=ONSALETHISWEEK_HOME&pdetail=/marketing/sale_this_week/proddetailpc.asp&vendor=True

Unfortunately, the neighborhood I live in loses power about once every couple of months. Despite filing complaints with the state and the power company, the problem is still not resolved (not sure where I can go from here).

On any rate, my biggest concern is potential damage to my display (CRT RPTV) from such a power failure --- or power surge which can transpire.

In fact, this happened yesterday while watching TV. The power went out.....came back within five seconds.

I'm using a Monster HTS1000 power surge protector. Is there something else I can use or do to protect my display from outages? Suggestions?

Also, how do I know if my Monster HTS1000 can still protect my equip. after yesterday's event? The "protection" green light is still on, but not sure if this means anything.

Hey All,

Wondering if the Tripp Lite Omnismart series and its Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) sinewave output is considered a pure sinewave output???

thx
Mark

nevermind...figured it out...still on the hunt for about a 350W pure sine wave ups....

Is there any kind of surge suppressor that I can put in the line between the transfer switch and the generator? What about the between the meter and the main circuit box? Any chance there is one solution for both?

The generator will only be used during power outtages which seem to occur in my neck of the woods 1 or 2 times of the year for extended periods.

One other thing, I have surge suppression at my computer, HTS, but I have heard that my high efficiency furnace will have trouble with the generator and the circuit board might get blown out. Should I put surge suppression at the furnace also? Am I lucky that I ran the furnaces (I have 2 in my house) for 5 days with no issues?

Dojostoe,

You would not put anything between the Main panel and Transfer switch but you would put a surge protector generator breaker pane in the top 2 spaces.. These are relatively cheap ($100). If you put the surge protector in the generator panel you shouldn't have any problem with your furnaces. They are pretty tough and can take large voltage swings. OTOH, some computers and HDTV equipment is pretty sensitive and you may want to add a second surge protector at the electrical outlet.

A number of folks have mentioned Monster Power products on this forum. They are MOV based and are not much better than any other MOV product. They do however honor their warranty as I can attest from personal experience. I have no reason to doubt that other manufactures would not honor theirs as well. I would point out that most of the warranties are secondary, which means if your homeowners insurance covers the damage then the surge protector warrant only covers the deductible.

MOV based surge protectors essentially assorb the overcurrents. These MOV's will eventually degrade and will lose effectinevess, the greater the overcurrent the faster they degrade. If you look at the warranty closely most will expire at 5 years. Are they perfect, absolutely not but they are cheap protection.

Done. Just finished reading the whole thread. It seems like it has evolved from the original posters like Doug and others talking about a brickwall and a EP15A to much less expensive stuff. From what I read, the EP15A is the absolute best but way to expensive for me. I do not need an APC. What i'm wondering about is the Belkin PureAV PF60. It was mentioned recently in the last few pages. The original posters dismissed any of the cheap power conditioners, like the Monster Power MKII 3500 as just cheap and useless. I guess they are compared to a $2000 piece of equipment.

Is the Belkin PF60 worth $220 to buy? Will it provide any benefit or increase in quality? Will it nullify the damaging effects of a brownout? I'm not purchasing it as a surge protector. Has anyone who bought it noticed a difference. Does it hum like some Monster products do?

Are there any others, around the same price, that are better or comparable?


I don't think anyone ever said Monster was cheap! Just the opposite. I would also contest anyone saying that its useless. They are in my opinion overpriced when compared to other MOV based surge protectors but they do honor their warranties. That says something for the company. I would suggest looking at the Brickwall products and if neccessary a UPS.

dojostoe,

I realized that I didn't answer your question completely. Your utility company can provide a surge protector that mounts on the meter. It is an MOV based product, although heavy duty. If you give them a call they likely will be happy to add it at little cost. The problem with these products is their sensitivity to overcurrents. They only eat the worst of the overcurrents.

The meter based system would have no effect on your generator issues. Please keep in mind that your generator will likely have an autorun feature which will come on weekly. Every generator is different and every installation is different based on what is hooked up to it and also what needs to start up during generator start up. All of this effects the voltage being fed into the system.

Hope this helps. For a couple of hundred buck you can ge aquedate surge protection and with your generator you will be a happy camper.

I am confused as to why you would need something between the transfer switch and the generator? Are you trying to protect the transfer switch? Also, I have a 45KW Coleman, that runs for 5 minutes after the power is restored, before the transfer switch changes back over to line power. It does that to make sure that the current is stable. I just haven't seen a power issue associated with my generator.

ok...I currently have a Back UPS ES 500 on my computer system..I realize that this is some type of stepped sine wave...
Which of the following options would you go with if you did not have a pure sine UPS

1) Some 1500+ joule surge protector plugged into most of the components including the TV?? (this would be harder on the lamp during an outage, but still give a little better protection

2) A stepped sine wave UPS that would leave the fan powered, albeit it at a non optimal wave...

thx
Mark

Good deal or not?

Local Costco (not online) has Tripplite Smart Pro 1000 LCD 1000VA combination UPS/surge suppressor for $99. Checked Tripplite website. Retails for $209. Found mixed reviews online. Negative appears to involve the fact that it runs hot -- dissipates 120W at all times.

Comments?

Dissipating 120W at all times?? Thats crazy!!

Good deal or not?

Local Costco (not online) has Tripplite Smart Pro 1000 LCD 1000VA combination UPS/surge suppressor for $99. Checked Tripplite website. Retails for $209. Found mixed reviews online. Negative appears to involve the fact that it runs hot -- dissipates 120W at all times.

Comments?

Here's the review:

"Works but case gets very hot. According to Tripp, unit uses about 1A of power in standby mode. Since the batteries are charged most of the time, the power is coverted to heat. The case gets very warm and in since I have mine in an entertainment cabinet, it just because a 120 watt heating element. I have several UPS units and this is the only one which gets hot. Its a poor design to waste 120 watts of power 24/7. It only takes a couple watts to trickle charge the batteries. Tripp offered to replace it but stated the new one would have the same issue. I would not have purchased this if I knew it put out 100 plus watts of heat 24/7."

I am confused as to why you would need something between the transfer switch and the generator? Are you trying to protect the transfer switch? Also, I have a 45KW Coleman, that runs for 5 minutes after the power is restored, before the transfer switch changes back over to line power. It does that to make sure that the current is stable. I just haven't seen a power issue associated with my generator.

I am not trying to protect the transfer switch, just the circuits the transfer switch will energize. I want to do this and not use up 2 spaces on my breaker panel or transfer switch.

I just bought a brand new Sony XBR2 LCD. I need to make sure I have proper surge protection and conditioning. I'm looking at the Brickwall which there site says does both or a Panamax 4300 or 5100. I have read through most of this thread and I guess I'm overwelmed. I know I will get interference with some household appliances since I can see it in my old TV today ( vacuum Cleaner).

1. Sony 40" LCD Panel, DVD Player and Microsoft XBOX 360 is what I need to hook up?

Any suggestion? Other units to look at?

Does anyone have any feed back on the APC H10 power conditioner? Thanks ahead of time for any responses.

Anyone have any information on the opti-ups? Their prices are reasonable and claim to have a pure sine wave (not step) on their website.

http://www.opti-ups.com/ups_detail.phtml?product_id=59

Thanks

I have a Brickwall unit that i just plugged a PureAV AP30800-10 into The ureAV unit shows a site wiring fault which means it thinks there is no ground or polarit is reversed. I believe this is because of how the brickwall handles ground. Can anyone confirm that this is normal and OK ??

Does anyone have any feed back on the APC H10 power conditioner? Thanks ahead of time for any responses.

I have it. I've been looking for months for what to do. Then, I was walking through CompUsa and there they were, sitting in the middle of the floor outside the TV area, all alone. Had a 'managers special' sign on it to boot cutting another 20+ bucks off the special price. Vedy nice! You can find the H10 on their website (it may be listed as sold out for delivery).

The unit seems well made. In the past month I've had it, I've had the power go off at my house at least 4 times. In a way, I wish I had the S-10 model, but it apparently can only be bought through dealers and it's way above my budget.

For barely over 100 bucks, it was a deal. I never bought it for filtering, only to give some surge suppression (APC says it's rating is high for surge) and as a glorified power strip. The picture is no better with or without it, however for the price it's being peddled at the store, it's making a nice powerstrip that gives me lots of plugs, a surge for digital cable and ota cable which gives me the piece of mind that all my power and both cable inputs are all bonded together safely.

I've also had some lower voltage conditions and the AVR taps to raise the voltage on the output.

I have a Brickwall unit that i just plugged a PureAV AP30800-10 into The PureAV unit shows a site wiring fault which means it thinks there is no ground or polarit is reversed. I believe this is because of how the brickwall handles ground. Can anyone confirm that this is normal and OK ??
answered my own question, a problem with the wiring in the outlet.

I am about to purchase the Tripplite Isobar HTPOWERBAR10 or the APC H10 to protect my soon to be arriving 60 inch Sony HD TV, my stereo surround system, my DirecTV HD box, my CD player, and my VCR/DVD player. I have also considered the Belkin AP30800-10 PureAV UPS. Would there be a preference in your opinions of these units and would it be necessary to buy some sort of additional surge protector or line conditioner along with them? Thanks.

Good deal or not?

Local Costco (not online) has Tripplite Smart Pro 1000 LCD 1000VA combination UPS/surge suppressor for $99. Checked Tripplite website. Retails for $209. Found mixed reviews online. Negative appears to involve the fact that it runs hot -- dissipates 120W at all times.

Comments?
I'm currently running 3 of these.
2 in my PC room and one on my HT setup and likely will need to add one more when I complete the PC build for my HTPC.
They are an absolute bargain at $99 and work extremely well.

even now I've got my mom to finally buy one to protect her PC equipment as they used to fry a component about ever 3 months due to the power in their area it's been 9 months since they got their tripplite from costco and it's been perfect.

I am about to purchase the Tripplite Isobar HTPOWERBAR10 or the APC H10 to protect my soon to be arriving 60 inch Sony HD TV, my stereo surround system, my DirecTV HD box, my CD player, and my VCR/DVD player. I have also considered the Belkin AP30800-10 PureAV UPS. Would there be a preference in your opinions of these units and would it be necessary to buy some sort of additional surge protector or line conditioner along with them? Thanks.
my single tripplte 1000va ups is powering my 47" CRT RPTV and soon my 65" DLP also my DVR, DVD player and Kenwood VR-4900 and it's never gone into an overload condition. I have the TV on the battery side and the reciever on the non-battery side.

Another question....what numbers (joules, etc.) matter in surge protection and what would you say is the minimum to look for in a surge protector?

Look at the clamping levels on each protected line, if you can find them. Joule ratings are often not good indicators. Some of the vendors add up all of the ratings of all of the MOVs in the unit to get a total. Since it is impossible for all of the MOVs to be dumping current simultaneously(unless there is only one combination of lines protected), this can be very misleading. Also, the MOV makers have no standard for how they rate the energy dissipation, so some are more conservative than others.

Greetings,

I am considering buying a UPS for my Rear Proj LCD TV. I currently have the Monster HTS 3500 power center hooked up to the TV now. I have a few questions:

1. I understand the proper hookup order is an ongoing debate, so i will just ask if this order will hurt anything: wall > ups > 3500 clean power > TV?

2. My house has a powerful outside generator that kicks in and supplies most of the house power in a blackout. The generator kicks in at about 10 seconds after a blackout. How will this effect the normal operation of the UPS, or will the UPS not really work properly with this generator? In reality I am hoping that when a blackout occurs, the UPS will continue power like normal for at least 10 seconds until the generator kicks in...and eventually normal power kicks in. Will it work that way? Does the UPS shut the TV off ever? I am a little confused about all of this.

3. Any suggestions for a non-mov cheaper UPS that can handle a sony e50a10?

Thanks!

Was gonna buy a surge suppressor that uses circuit breaker technology - says its faster than normal tech.

Not sure I want to go the UPS road for a variety of reasons.

Is the CB OK?

Either the unit has other technology that they are refering to, you misunderstood, or someone is misleading you. Breakers are used to shut off the current when it exceeds a certain point for a period of time much greater than the clamping time of MOVs or diodes, which are the common technology for suppression. A circuit breaker is not itself surge suppression at all.

Give the brand, model, and specifications if you want some specific advice.

Either the unit has other technology that they are refering to, you misunderstood, or someone is misleading you. Breakers are used to shut off the current when it exceeds a certain point for a period of time much greater than the clamping time of MOVs or diodes, which are the common technology for suppression. A circuit breaker is not itself surge suppression at all.

Give the brand, model, and specifications if you want some specific advice.

Its POWER BLOCKER 2 by Power Sentry - see attachment from their website
http://www.powersentry.com/home_theater.php


Power Blocker 2 is the industry's fastest, safest and most reliable surge protector. It offers 100% protection against lightning, surge detection that is 1000x faster than others in the industry, and a $750,000 warranty on connected equipment. Patented recovery system with instant-reset technology ensures that precious data or valuable components are not compromised in case of an unexpected surge or power outage. An indispensable product for any home entertainment system or office workstation.

Coaxial outlet protection with gold connectors, including 6ft coaxial cable
Telephone line protection, including 6 ft phone cord
8 outlets
Includes 3 adapter-spaced outlets
Power Blocker® 2 circuit breaker technology with 140-volt switch actuation
EMI/RFI noise filtration
Instant-Reset button
6ft power cord with offset, right-angle plug
Protection, power and ground indicator lights
$750,000 Limited Connected Equipment Warranty

Lots of hype but no actual specifications and no certifications. I would look at products by Panamax, CyberPower, and Tripplite.

Lots of hype but no actual specifications and no certifications. I would look at products by Panamax, CyberPower, and Tripplite.


How about the Omni Pro LCD from Tripplite. Is this issue with the "correct waveform electricity" on UPS a big deal? I'd prefer not to pay $250 for these things. Can a $99 Tripplite do OK? Even if it has a "stepped sine wave"

I am not an EE so I don't know about any of this sine wave stuff. If its really gonna hurt my DLP let me know -- I read somewhere else that the transformers on the TVs will convert everything anyway to what they need......

Thanks for all the advice!

I don't think there is much reason at all to use a UPS unless you have very frequent power disruptions. If I was going to have one I would want one with clean sine wave output, however. My recommendation is basic surge suppression with coverage of all lines into the system and good solid grounding of everything according to code.

I don't think there is much reason at all to use a UPS unless you have very frequent power disruptions. If I was going to have one I would want one with clean sine wave output, however. My recommendation is basic surge suppression with coverage of all lines into the system and good solid grounding of everything according to code.


OK - so is "good solid surge suppression" any of the $25 and up surge suppressors in the brands you mentioned? (TrippLite, etc). I think I agree that since the power hardly ever goes off here, the chance that it goes off while I'm watching my DLP is probably in the 1 in 5,000 range or more.

OK - so is "good solid surge suppression" any of the $25 and up surge suppressors in the brands you mentioned? (TrippLite, etc). I think I agree that since the power hardly ever goes off here, the chance that it goes off while I'm watching my DLP is probably in the 1 in 5,000 range or more.

Personally I use a Panamax and several CyberPower 1090. Anything with similar protection to those is, IMO, quite adeqate. The problem is that many do not give you any specificaitons to compare, or are very limited in what they provide. The CP has good info and I opened one up to compare it to the panamax and they are very comparable, other than the protection on the lines other than the a.c. may be better on the panamax. But I have bought the CP for as little as $20.

Picked up a CP 1090 at WalMart for $25 - hopefully that'll do the trick. Thanks for all the advice, and for saving me some dough vs buying a UPS system

Picked up a CP 1090 at WalMart for $25 - hopefully that'll do the trick. Thanks for all the advice, and for saving me some dough vs buying a UPS system

Don't forget to check your grounding. The owners manual for each device clearly diagrams how it should be done, though most sat and some cable installers do not follow electrical codes nor the manufacturer's instructions.

Until recently I was under the assumption that these "clean power" bars were nothing but a waste of money. A couple of months ago I started to notice some "flickering or slight picture shifting" on my TV. I've the same TV setup for over a year and never noticed this before. I've always had good power and strong cable signals to my TV. At first I thought it was my TV (Toshiba 52" HDM84 - DLP). The TV was about 1 1/2 years old. So I thought maybe it's a sign that the bulb is starting to go. But the picture brightness was consitant from the day I bought it. I also tested both the DVD signals and cable signals to see if was just my cable signal. It happened on both. So I figured it was either the TV or power.
I have fairly new wiring in my house (new fuse panel switchs, upgraded house wiring, etc) and never had any power fluctuations in any other appliances.
A friend of mine , who is an electrician by trade, recommended that I try a Power Bar that "cleans" the power up. I figured I had nothing to lose. So I went and purchased the cheapest clean power bar that FS had at the time to test it out. I bought a Monster HT800 clean power bar for $110.00 (on sale). I plugged my Rogers Cable, and all other units into the power bar, and the turned on the TV as normal.

It worked, the picture shaking, shifting was gone. The picture quality seemed a little bit sharper and brighter. (not too noticable), and to my surprise my sound from the receiver seemed better. (louder and more defined in each of the surround speakers).

I am now a convinced believer that these power clean bars do work. I am also a firm believer of quality cabling. I use Monster HDMI-400 cables, and although I realize they are way overpriced. They are worth the price. It doesn't make any sense to me when I hear people spending thousands of dollars on high def equipment and the try to save $20 to $30 on cheap brand cables. I realize that most of the cheaper brands will do just fine. But it's not worth the hastle - risk in my opinion.

Bottom line you get what you pay for.

Is there any definitive source out there that has tested similar products side by side? Are there any "Hybrid" surge suppressors (using both MOVs and series) that are not too expensive that anyone knows of?

Until recently I was under the assumption that these "clean power" bars were nothing but a waste of money. A couple of months ago I started to notice some "flickering or slight picture shifting" on my TV. I've the same TV setup for over a year and never noticed this before. I've always had good power and strong cable signals to my TV. At first I thought it was my TV (Toshiba 52" HDM84 - DLP). The TV was about 1 1/2 years old. So I thought maybe it's a sign that the bulb is starting to go. But the picture brightness was consitant from the day I bought it. I also tested both the DVD signals and cable signals to see if was just my cable signal. It happened on both. So I figured it was either the TV or power.
I have fairly new wiring in my house (new fuse panel switchs, upgraded house wiring, etc) and never had any power fluctuations in any other appliances.
A friend of mine , who is an electrician by trade, recommended that I try a Power Bar that "cleans" the power up. I figured I had nothing to lose. So I went and purchased the cheapest clean power bar that FS had at the time to test it out. I bought a Monster HT800 clean power bar for $110.00 (on sale). I plugged my Rogers Cable, and all other units into the power bar, and the turned on the TV as normal.

It worked, the picture shaking, shifting was gone. The picture quality seemed a little bit sharper and brighter. (not too noticable), and to my surprise my sound from the receiver seemed better. (louder and more defined in each of the surround speakers).

I am now a convinced believer that these power clean bars do work. I am also a firm believer of quality cabling. I use Monster HDMI-400 cables, and although I realize they are way overpriced. They are worth the price. It doesn't make any sense to me when I hear people spending thousands of dollars on high def equipment and the try to save $20 to $30 on cheap brand cables. I realize that most of the cheaper brands will do just fine. But it's not worth the hastle - risk in my opinion.

Bottom line you get what you pay for.

It is highly likely that if your picture was shaking, there was something else wrong besides "dirty" power. The kinds of filtering that is found in these units is very unlikely to have any effect on this kind of problem, and I have yet to hear of an explanation for how they can make sound louder or a picture brighter. It is far more likely that you had a ground loop or some common mode noise that just happened to be improved by the power strip and would have likely been improved by any surge suppressor with similar grounding. I would check the stae of grounds in your system and consider other possibilities for the improvements that you experienced. It is unlikely the filtering.

I do have other power bars that I tested prior to trying the HT800. Although they are only surge protector type power bars and not necessarily surge suppressors or "power clean" bars.

I don't think it was a grounding issue because I would have noticed it earlier.

The only reason I think that the sound and picture improved slightly is becasue the power supply may be more consistant now.

You may be right in that I may have had a grounding issue. Either way the power bar seems to work.

Anyone have any information on the opti-ups? Their prices are reasonable and claim to have a pure sine wave (not step) on their website.

http://www.opti-ups.com/ups_detail.phtml?product_id=59

Thanks

Any comments on this folks??

I was looking at the same. It has P-sine-wave and some line/noise conditioning for ~$330 shipped

700 watts would be plenty for my app.

???

All I will ever have hooked up that I can think of is:

SA8300HD DVR Set Top Box (Cablevision)
50" Samsung 5053 Plasma,
Yamaha: Progressive DVD-C920 Player
Yamaha model RX-V630 Receiver,
5.1 Paradigm speakers system with sub woofer.

I have read several pages of this thread and now somewhat confused as to a selection.

Can some kind soul recommend a surge protector that would give me protection against surges, electric outages and lightning?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
---Jerry---

Monster HT800 works great for me.

Monster HT800 works great for me.
Icepik,

On Monsters site they have it for MSRP of $79.95.

Could not find it on BB's site.

So it's not necessary to spend a few hundred on surge protection?

Thanks for the reply and the information.

Any other comments or recommendations?
---Jerry---

Is it possible for a surge protector/UPS to add noise to the image or noise pulses?

From my research, it seems like the best solution is a combined approach using a whole house and point of use surge suppressor. That should cover all your bases and give some redundancy for each system if the other fails...that way you're not putting all of your eggs in a single MOV/series basket. That being said, I've been looking for some point surge suppressors and to echo the question of a previous post, is it necessary to spend $100? The three I've been looking at are these in order from cheapest to most expensive: Cyberpower's 1030HT Here (http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/1030HT.asp) TrippLite's HTPOWERBAR10 Here (http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2812) and Panamax's M8HC-PRO Here (http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?group=1&sec=detail&id=236&ly=h)

They are for the most part similar but there are some noteable differences when comparing spec to spec. I'm wondering if anyone has some experience with these or better yet, has tried two or all three. What are your recommendations and why? Is there a product I missed that's close in price and worth looking into? Thanks for the feedback!

The Monster HT800 does have surge protection. It actually puts the surge back through the ground. It even lets you know on the Bar itself if the power bar has proper surge protection enabled. eg if the grounding is ok.

This model also has "clean power" circuitry built in. It was the cheapest model I could find at the time. I pruchased it from either Future Shop or Best Buy can't remember.

"APC Line-R" 600 or 1200 depending on your power usage. You can't go wrong, and they are cheap and high quality.

surge protectors don't do much.

From my post #1059 you know that I am in the market for a surge protector and still have not made a decision on what to buy.

I was referred to Brick Wall and read several articles that were very interesting and thought they might be useful to others. This is their site: http://www.brickwall.com/

They talk a lot about MOV surge protectors that might be of interest, it was to me.
---Jerry---

I have been following this thread. I am also looking for a power solution.

It seems to be the best scenario is to start with a non-MOV surge protector and/or line filter such as Brickwall. This won't do voltage regulation, but it will protect your equipment from lightning and surges. If you get a Brickwall, they say it will also remove any "noise" on the line. So you will have clean power coming out of the Brickwall.

Now if you are concerned about brownouts and low voltage problems, you would need some additional line conditioner to plug in after the brickwall. APC makes some good line conditioners, I assume Monster and others will also do line conditioning as well. Alternatively you could put in a true online UPS such as TrippLite SmartOnline if you want battery backup in addition to line conditioning. I am sure there are probably plenty of other products on the market that will do line conditiong as well.

The only thing I can not seem to get a definite answer on is will the power drawn from a receiver create noise for the TV, etc. Do these separate devices create noise upon each other and do you need to have filters that prevent noise from spilling over from one device to another device? If not, then it seems to me all the exotic solutions are way overkill when all you really need is a very good surge suppressor and line filter (Brickwall), then a voltage regulator (aka line conditioner).

I would not call/compare a "line conditioner" to a "voltage regulator" A voltage regulator does not "condition" the power it,,, you guessed it, regulates voltage etc..
The only way you are going to truly regulate/"fix" "under voltage" is with a UPS/battery back-up system. "Over-voltage can be regulated via suppression but without a backup source all the system can do is shut off when it reaches a set parameter of low voltage. This is normally around 90 volts on a 110-120 system. By then damage may very well be taking place on circuits etc..

Panamax does provide an all in one box (pure sine-wave) option but its in the range of $1500. A post of mine above references a similar box at a much reduced cost but I have no idea of it's overall quality...

I, like you, am still researching/looking for a good overall option/cost. For now I use the typical Home Theater MOV type devices for some piece of mind.

Cheers

Well, you can have a "voltage regulator" that is not a UPS which is just a big capacitor, but those devices will only handle brief brown-outs and not extended brown-outs. APC's Line-R series is technically a Voltage Regulator, although in the past I have frequently heard them referred to as line conditioners.

But back to the point, to me it seems that your really want the non-MOV surge protector followed by a "voltage regulator". The brickwalls are only $189 for a two receptalce 15 amp device. The APC Line-R 1200 is only $60, if 1200VA is enough juice for a home theatre setup. So this combination is only $250 and I would think this would work out quite well.

You can find a 1500VA or larger True Online UPS for about $300 or so on eBay. That would give you ample "voltage regulation" as well. Although if you have a True Online UPS, I am on not sure if you need a Brickwall in front of this or not.

I would like to know what a Panamax does that the above combination of products does not do...

We bought our first HDTV this Christmas, the 46"Samsung LCD (LN-S4695D). The salesman said that if I didn't buy the store's $800 warranty I HAD to buy the Monster Power Center HTS-1600 ($299). I said I'd try it.

So I have the Monster HTS-1600 and I'm not sure what it's doing. The power display has fluctuated from 117-121, but it usually says 119 or 120. But with our new piece of furniture, changing components, etc, I've moved shelves and components several times and each time connecting them to the back of the 1600 inside my shallow piece of furniture has been painful and very time-consuming. I think a unit that lies outside the furniture on the floor would be so much more convenient.

I've read about 10 pages of comments here and I think I'm interested in either the Monster HTS2000 MKII or the HTS1000 MKII (which Amazon currently has for $144 and $103). Is there a difference besides # of outlets? I read somewhere that the 1000 wasn't for HDTV. My signal is coming through a DirectTV dvr HR-20, and DirecTV says the cable MUST pass directly from the satellite to their receiver.

Any recommendations on these simpler units?

I also need something for the bedroom where we just bought a 32" Vizio LCD (not great, but something better than my current $10 power strip).
Thanks.

http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?group=2&sec=detail&id=249&ly=v

This is more than adequate. Your salesman was feeding you BS and DirecTV will work fine with the above, as it is designed specifically for that purpose. We use them all the time with DTV.

http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?group=2&sec=detail&id=249&ly=v

This is more than adequate. Your salesman was feeding you BS and DirecTV will work fine with the above, as it is designed specifically for that purpose. We use them all the time with DTV.

Thanks, Leonard. I didn't really trust that salesman.
Sometimes I wonder if the salesmen get a commission on warranties and Monster products, even at the no commission stores like Circuit City and Best Buy.

I'm still within my time limit to return the 1600, so I will.

I've had the DTV HD-DVR receiver's power cord plugged in, but the DTV guys said not to pass the coaxial cables through anything between the satellite and their receiver. Have you done that?

http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?group=2&sec=detail&id=249&ly=v

This is more than adequate. Your salesman was feeding you BS and DirecTV will work fine with the above, as it is designed specifically for that purpose. We use them all the time with DTV.

Update: At first I couldn't find this Panamax within 120 miles nor online with free shipping, so I just ordered the Monster 1000 and 800 from Amazon. But then 20 minutes later I discovered that Amazon had the Panamax you recommended. I was able to cancel the Monster 1000 and ordered your Panamax recommendation instead (approx $77).
Thanks.
PS: I'm rushing because I want to have a replacement before I disconnect and return the Monster 1600 to Circuit City.

I use this.

http://xs412.xs.to/xs412/07066/h119HTFS500.jpeg

Why?

Wow! Theres a lot of great information here. But, I'm not reading through 36 pages. Besides, I learned most of what I need to know on page 1. I still have a question though. It would seem to me that optimum total system protection would come from a quality SM surge suppressor, like a BrickWall together with quality UPS for the benefit of a safe shut down when necessary. Am I correct with my thinking or is there something I'm missing?
Also, is there no company that makes a UPS with SM surge suppression? I can't find anything by searching anywhere. Obviously it would be a costly device, but no more than buying those units individually. Is there another reason besides cost that these aren't made if they are not?

Thanks!!!

Yes, you are missing something. SM surge suppressors typically are far more expensive and do not have protection for other incoming lines such as cable, sat, antenna, telephone, and ethernet. These lines are common sources for problems from surges or lightning in areas that have frequent problems. For the cost of one SM unit you can have whole house MOV based protection and system level units that cover all incoming lines that have lifetime warranties.

There is no debate on the value of SM protection for a.c. lines, but a.c. line protection is, IME, which includes nearly three decades of service work in Louisiana and north central Florida, only one part of the protection needed.

Yes, you are missing something. SM surge suppressors typically are far more expensive and do not have protection for other incoming lines such as cable, sat, antenna, telephone, and ethernet. These lines are common sources for problems from surges or lightning in areas that have frequent problems. For the cost of one SM unit you can have whole house MOV based protection and system level units that cover all incoming lines that have lifetime warranties.

There is no debate on the value of SM protection for a.c. lines, but a.c. line protection is, IME, which includes nearly three decades of service work in Louisiana and north central Florida, only one part of the protection needed.


Good points. However, in my situation, being in a condo, whole house protection is not easily possible, nor do I feel it is necessary as I only plan to be here a couple more years. I know anything can happen at any time. But, I do/will have my most valuable equipment protected, so that decreases my risk considerably.

So, would a SM surge suppressor combined with a quality UPS/MOV surge suppressor with coax, rj45 for phone and data and other types of protection be the ultimate way to protect a system? Or is this just overkill at this point. I had planned to just get a quality UPS with MOV protection, but now I've got something else to think about.

For most systems a UPS is not needed, and unless you spend a lot on them you usually do not ge good surge suppression compared to what you can get in a good basic unit. The SM units are simply not a good value for surge suppression and not needed for the filtering that they provide.

If what you want is protection, make sure that you grounding is solid and get good system level suppressors that protect all lines connected to the system.

Good choices are the Panamax units for under $100 that have over/under voltage shutoff, or the CyberPower 1090 for nder $30 without the cutoff feature but a similar complement of surge suppression devices. Again, check that your grounding is not compromised and do not assume that cable and sat installers do their job properly in this respect.

I have gone 'round and 'round on this one. I have given up trying to find the best line conditioner/surge protector/power filter/power distributor/interruptible power supply thingy. I just bought a refurbished Monster HTS 3500 from accessories4less.com it was really inexpensive has several good reviews on the web. If it works, great. If not, then I will know what I need and I will go get it. But for now, it's done.

Beermoney

Leonard,

You said, "Good choices are the Panamax units for under $100 that have over/under voltage shutoff...". Would you have the Model # of the Panamax you are suggesting?

I like many others here in spite of all the great information posted thus far are still not sure what to buy. With all the different types available and with no reasonably priced all in one unit if there is such a thing, I probably will “settle", (don't know if that's the proper word) for something like the Panamax.

Was in contact with Brick Wall but they do not seem to have an all in one answer either. I also asked them why they didn’t offer an equipment policy in case something happened and was told the chances of their “No Fail” system failing is almost unheard of or words to that effect. Others who do offer this type of protection often are referred to their Homeowners Policy??

Asked why there were no cable connections and was told that the cable should be properly grounded by the cable company. Brick Wall takes care of the AC only.

I did call my Homeowners insurer and they said that my equipment was insured for lightening and surges under their replacement policy but there is a $250.00 deductible. Probably a lot of small print in that protection statement.

So here I am with a storm coming tomorrow evening and my expensive audio/video being protected by a 7 year old surge protector that always flickers, probably a MOV going or is bad. Better head to BB in the AM and get something, but what???
---Jerry---

Yes, you are missing something. SM surge suppressors typically are far more expensive and do not have protection for other incoming lines such as cable, sat, antenna, telephone, and ethernet. These lines are common sources for problems from surges or lightning in areas that have frequent problems. For the cost of one SM unit you can have whole house MOV based protection and system level units that cover all incoming lines that have lifetime warranties.

There is no debate on the value of SM protection for a.c. lines, but a.c. line protection is, IME, which includes nearly three decades of service work in Louisiana and north central Florida, only one part of the protection needed.


For coax protection, you can use this little device to protect against surges coming into equipment via the coax.

http://www.newtechindustries.com/newtech/access/surgender_coaxial_surge_protector.htm

Better head to BB in the AM and get something, but what???
---Jerry---

office depot recently had the APC BX1500 on sale for $99. compusa has the APC 1200 this week for $99 with rebates. shop.com has a nice belkin PF60 for $166 plus shipping

I've been using a Monster HTS 1000 for about 7 years now. I have lost electronics and appliances on two occasions due to lightning strikes, but I have never lost anything plugged into the Monster power bar. Coincidence? Who knows? The only negative I observed were the signal loss when running the satellite and antenna COAX through it. It made several channels blanked out and several transponders went out.

I recently bought a Mits DLP and wanted a UPS to run the fan in the event of a power outage, so I just ordered a Tripp Lite Smart1500. I paid $226 at amazon.com. I have heard mixed reviews on it's ability to regulate voltage but I've read more good than bad on it's UPS properties and it's surge supression, so I'm happy with the purchase.

I've been using a Monster HTS 1000 for about 7 years now. The only negative I observed were the signal loss when running the satellite and antenna COAX through it. It made several channels blanked out and several transponders went out.

.

thats the issue i have been debating with myself. which product provides protection and also zero loss on coax?

Better head to BB in the AM and get something, but what???
---Jerry---

office depot recently had the APC BX1500 on sale for $99. compusa has the APC 1200 this week for $99 with rebates. shop.com has a nice belkin PF60 for $166 plus shipping

dssturbo1,

The APC BX 1500 is now ~199, missed a good price again.

The Belkin PF 60, (there are several models) and now range from 269 to 1200.

Need a quick fix as it is starting to snow. Will get a Panamax or Monster this AM.

Thanks,
---Jerry---

thats the issue i have been debating with myself. which product provides protection and also zero loss on coax?

Any product will have at least .5 dB insertion loss due to the connections. It should not make a significant difference if there is not attentuation beyond that. I know that the Panamax and Cyberpower units create no problems because I use them all the time with cable broadbanc and HD. Some of the TrippLite products have been reported to have some issues with digital cable but I have never seen a problem with any that my clients have used.

Any product will have at least .5 dB insertion loss due to the connections. It should not make a significant difference if there is not attentuation beyond that. I know that the Panamax and Cyberpower units create no problems because I use them all the time with cable broadbanc and HD. Some of the TrippLite products have been reported to have some issues with digital cable but I have never seen a problem with any that my clients have used.

Is it necessary to run COAX through a surge surpressor if it is already connected to a grounding block outside the house? My grounding block is grounded directly to the house ground.

Is it necessary to run COAX through a surge surpressor if it is already connected to a grounding block outside the house? My grounding block is grounded directly to the house ground.


my local cable company says its not necessary nor do they recommend it because of signal loss. however my thought process is this: the house electrical system is grounded to the earth (the same place the cable grounding block is and phone system) but that doesn't stop surges from entering the electrical lines and damaging your stuff. i would think if you need a point of use surge suppressor for electrical connections you would also need one for coax and phone lines. my thought process is known to be messed up sometimes though.

FYI. amazon has the panamax M8HC-PRO through ******* for $91 and you can opt to sign up for the amazon card and save $30.



EDIT: 1 call

my local cable company says its not necessary nor do they recommend it because of signal loss. however my thought process is this: the house electrical system is grounded to the earth (the same place the cable grounding block is and phone system) but that doesn't stop surges from entering the electrical lines and damaging your stuff. i would think if you need a point of use surge suppressor for electrical connections you would also need one for coax and phone lines. my thought process is known to be messed up sometimes though.

I may have an identical thought process. LOL!

My thinking is that a surge should never be running through your COAX unless your dish or cable wires are hit by lightning. That's why you have the grounding block. Nothing but very low voltage would be travelling along your COAX unless there's a lightning strike.

Is it necessary to run COAX through a surge surpressor if it is already connected to a grounding block outside the house? My grounding block is grounded directly to the house ground.

IME, yes. Think about what happens in a nearby lightning strike. For that instant when it hits, the ground side may actually go high. The ground side at your tuner or stereo then goes high with it, and it finds a path back through your audio circuits or tuner. We see this kind of damage all the time here where lightning is very common. Now put the surge suppressor in. You now have the ground at the SS clamped with an MOV to the hot and nuetral sides of the a.c. service and the current has a path to go without going through your equipment. At that instant that the strike occurs, the hot side may actually be at a lower potential than the ground. You also have the diodes or gas discharge tubes on the coax lines themselves if the signal side goes high.

In the seven years that I have been servicing products for a dealer that uses the Panamax units on nearly all installs, I have never seen a system with a properly installed unit take damage. I HAVE seen systems damaged on the tuner or audio circuits when Cox cable has removed the surge suppressor from the signal path. They routinely do so when they come behind us. During times with storms, we see our service business double or even triple. Rarely do our installs have any problems at all unless someone has altered the installation.

It just is not worth the risk. With a good quality unit the loss is insignificant.

I am actually looking at picking up a Belkin PureAV AP30800-10 which is a Line Conditioner, Surege Suppressor and UPS all in one unit for less than 200 bucks.

Oh shi. I was just browsing the b-p-t website and they actually claim the following as a feature of their surge protectors:
"Heavily damped black powder-coat 1/8"aluminum chassis to reduce unwanted mechanical vibrations that blur imaging and clarity"

Are they claiming that the minute amount a surge protector might vibrate could affect the ultimate sound quality of your equipment?

I am actually looking at picking up a Belkin PureAV AP30800-10 which is a Line Conditioner, Surege Suppressor and UPS all in one unit for less than 200 bucks.This is what I'm currently using. To it, I'm adding a Zero Surge (http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/standaloneres.html), either the 2R15W or 2R20W.

I am actually looking at picking up a Belkin PureAV AP30800-10 which is a Line Conditioner, Surege Suppressor and UPS all in one unit for less than 200 bucks.


Thats a nice looking unit. I'm running a Belkin (not PureAV) on my computer system and it works well. Wish this one came in black. Also, sounds like the front display is a bit bright and lacks a dimmer. Online pricing is interesting on this one though so shop around. Some places are 60% less than others.

*EDIT: Just gave in and bought this one. Less than $140 shipped. Hope this does what I want.

This is what I'm currently using. To it, I'm adding a Zero Surge (http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/standaloneres.html), either the 2R15W or 2R20W.

Allin4greeN,

How do you like the Belkin PureAV AP30800-10?

Why do you need the Zero Surge in addition to the Belkin?

I bought the Panamax M8HC-PRO from BB as a stop gap measure as I needed something fast.

Thanks,
---Jerry---

...How do you like the Belkin PureAV AP30800-10?

Why do you need the Zero Surge in addition to the Belkin?

I bought the Panamax M8HC-PRO from BB as a stop gap measure as I needed something fast...I wanted UPS capability for my DVR and DVD recorder and over/under voltage regulation with surge supression for my other components. The Belkin's been a a great addition to my set-up and has really helped to clean up a messy cable situation (power, RJ11/45, RG6). It provides peace of mind and since all of my other components have the brushed aluminum appearance, it looks great!

I'm adding the Zero Surge for a couple of reasons; The Belkin is a little stretched on my current set-up. It could only accomodate most of the "big ticket" items such as the PDP, Sat STB/DVR, A/V receiver, Sub, XBox/HD DVD player, and DVD recorder/VCR. I currently have a satellite radio receiver, DSL modem, netowrk router, indoor OTA antenna, and cooling fans hooked up to an old Monster HT700 so, I'm looking to provide an outlet surge suppression solution for everything. Another advantage to adding the Zero Surge is that the Belkin and HT700 also get protected.

Eventually I'll be adding an HTPC into the mix so, at that point the Zero Suge will run in-line to the Belkin and, probably, an APC UPS for the HTPC.

Allin4greeN,

Thanks for the reply.

I can't imagine having all the items that you have, I'm overwhelmed with just trying to get my HDTV, STB-DVR, DVD and receiver with surround sound properly connected and protected.

You said, "Another advantage to adding the Zero Surge is that the Belkin and HT700 also get protected". Does this mean that the Belkin is not a surge protector or when the big one hits the Belkin saves your equipment but in doing so will "self destruct"? You can tell that I am very new to this right?

Do you believe that the Belkin AP30800-10 would offer me more protection against surges, lightening and power outages for my above equipment then the Panamax M8HC-PRO that I just purchased or would it be over-kill?

Again, thanks for the great information.
---Jerry---

*EDIT: Just gave in and bought this one. Less than $140 shipped. Hope this does what I want.

Where did you find it for less than $140 shipped?

...You said, "Another advantage to adding the Zero Surge is that the Belkin and HT700 also get protected". Does this mean that the Belkin is not a surge protector or when the big one hits the Belkin saves your equipment but in doing so will "self destruct"? You can tell that I am very new to this right?...I've only been building my home theater for about two years so, I'm also still pretty new to it all. Adding the Zero Surge was recommended by someone with much more experience than me :) It's unlikely that the Belkin could be damaged (it is a surge suppressor) but, with severe over voltage situations like a lightening strike, one never knows. The following quote/thread (http://www.highdefforum.com/showpost.php?p=219080&postcount=6) is where I learned about the Zero Surge product......Panamax with Surge Arrest takes the 'disconnect' route in case of severe over or under voltage. An excellent way to protect equipment, but probably not a good idea for any electronics that needs time to shut down (ie; projection displays, PCs, recording equipment, etc.)......Do you believe that the Belkin AP30800-10 would offer me more protection against surges, lightening and power outages for my above equipment then the Panamax M8HC-PRO that I just purchased or would it be over-kill?...The built-in UPS on the Belkin provides back-up power during an outage. For me, the investment in this product is worth knowing that I'll be saving any scheduled recordings on my DVR or DVD recorder during an outage, as it can provide ample power for most situations in my set-up.

I've read through this whole thread and have gotten some awesome info on lots of individual products. It seems as though the best protection comes from a combination of things.

I am getting a whole new setup within the next 5-6 weeks (Sharp 52" D92 LCD, HTD L3 Towers, and eventually the new Denon 380(7/8/X) that should be coming out soon), and my current $8 radio shack power strip isn't going to cut it. The guy wall mounting the TV (an electrician turned HT installer) is pushing the Panamax 5300.

My question is: Do i need the 5300 and a SM suppressor as well? I don't really care about a UPS, as I don't record anything worthwhile and the DVR is comcast's anyways. Will the line conditioning make any significant difference, or should i just get an 8 plug brick wall? I don't mind spending money to protect and enhance my equipment if its worthwhile, but i don't want to waste money for duplicate coverage or unnecessary features.

EDITED: On second thought, a UPS might be necessary. A well timed lighting strike could take out the PS3 during a disk write. So...any good unit that combines all three? If not, what is the cheapest way to effectively cover all of my bases?

I bought the Belkin PureAV AP30800-10 in mid January. My two-year-old CRT RPTV has been experiencing occasional noise/static pulses or pops since using it; I've had the Belikin disconnected for the last 9 days and no more issues on my TV so far.

Has anyone ever heard of a power surge/UPS/power conditioner doing this to a display? Also, could it have anything to do with that fact the Belikin uses simulated sine waves? I was thinking of either a display compatibility issue or I have a bad Belkin unit.

I've only been building my home theater for about two years so, I'm also still pretty new to it all.

Adding the Zero Surge was recommended by someone with much more experience than me :) It's unlikely that the Belkin could be damaged (it is a surge suppressor) but, with severe over voltage situations like a lightening strike, one never knows. The following quote/thread (http://www.highdefforum.com/showpost.php?p=219080&postcount=6) is where I learned about the Zero Surge product...

The built-in UPS on the Belkin provides back-up power during an outage. For me, the investment in this product is worth knowing that I'll be saving any scheduled recordings on my DVR or DVD recorder during an outage, as it can provide ample power for most situations in my set-up.

======================================

Sorry I did not get back to you sooner, getting over a ice storm here. Was lucky this time as there were no power outages.

Only two years, how much will you have in a couple more? (HA HA)

Not sure if I need any backup power most I record are a few shows every evening mostly when there is a conflict with a Hockey game.

Thanks for the Zero Surge web site and all the information you previously offered, very much appreciated.
---Jerry---

Hello,
I just received the Panamax 4300 and I'm hooking it up. I have an HD cable box. Do I run the coax from the wall to the 4300, to the cable box then to the TV? Or do I run the coax from the wall to the cable box, to the 4300 then to the TV? Does it even make a difference? Thanks for your help. :)

I bought the Belkin PureAV AP30800-10 in mid January. My two-year-old CRT RPTV has been experiencing occasional noise/static pulses or pops since using it; I've had the Belikin disconnected for the last 9 days and no more issues on my TV so far.

Has anyone ever heard of a power surge/UPS/power conditioner doing this to a display? Also, could it have anything to do with that fact the Belikin uses simulated sine waves? I was thinking of either a display compatibility issue or I have a bad Belkin unit.

All of the inexpensive UPS units are simulated sine waves. So unless you want to spend easily twice the price, you will always get a simulated sine wave. Also, it only puts out that simulated sine wave on battery power, not all of the time so that is most likely NOT your problem.

I honestly can't tell you what else could have caused it though. I have heard nothing but good reviews from the unit so I am hoping I don't have any problems because I just ordered it.

(Also, most consumer electronics today should be able to handle a simulated sine wave for a short period of time anyway. The only stuff I would trust on a simulated sine wave are stuff like hospital equipment and whatnot that are essential to someone's life)

I'm thinking maybe I just have a defected unit.

What kind of heat do these things generate?

My Tripp Lite Smart1500 comes today. The owners manual and tech specs say nothing about heat.

I was wondering if I could put it in my enclosed cabinet with my other components.

office depot put the APC BX1500 back on a SUPER sale for 3 days only 2/15-2/17, $49 now! same $99 sale price as before but adds in a $50 rebate. i hate rebates but it makes for a great deal for an item that retailed $170+

If I get a zerosurge or brickwall with the 2 outlet option can I use a power strip (or 2) to plug all my devices (TV, STB, DVD,receiver, wireless computer router, cable modem, vonage modem) into it.

Will this be too much for the unit to handle and still protect? Do I need to up the price and get one that has more outlets?

TR

If I get a zerosurge or brickwall with the 2 outlet option can I use a power strip (or 2) to plug all my devices (TV, STB, DVD,receiver, wireless computer router, cable modem, vonage modem) into it.

Will this be too much for the unit to handle and still protect? Do I need to up the price and get one that has more outlets?

TR
most manufacturers say not to plug 1 surge protector into another. cant remember why. it is explained somewhere between the beginning and middle of this thread. FYI the panamax M8HC-PRO is expandable.

The reason is that the lead length increases the resistance to ground, making the second unit less likely to be effective.

The total power dissipation of the units plugged in should not exceed the capacity of the zerosurge or brickwall unit. Since the units plugged in should never see a surge, and the ground is isolate anyway, there is no problem with cascading units if the power ratings allow it. They likely will not if you are using any high power devices.

Once again, I warn that the series mode units usually deal only with a.c. surges and usually ignore the other incomming lines. Their big advantage is in terms of noise filtering effectiveness, but this is rarely an issue with most systems. Their cost is a big waste of resources, IMO.

There is little sense IME to using anything more than the M8HC-PRO. Even that is probably more than most systems need for protection. And if you don't verify the grounding on the a.c. service and incoming signal lines, all of them will be less effective at protecting anything.

Do I need to up the price and get one that has more outlets?

TR

Yes. If that was the case where you could buy a 2 outlet setup and plug a lot more into them, everyone would be doing that. You would increase the chance of overloading that setup GREATLY.

office depot put the APC BX1500 back on a SUPER sale for 3 days only 2/15-2/17, $49 now! same $99 sale price as before but adds in a $50 rebate. i hate rebates but it makes for a great deal for an item that retailed $170+

That was a good deal! I went and picked one up even though I really did not need it. But I have a two+ year old BX1200 which is the slightly smaller capacity version of the same APC UPS on my PC which will probably need new batteries in about a year or so, and that was even cheaper than buying new batteries for it. So I'll just swap it out now, and use my old BX1200 UPS for something else.

I picked up the APC BX 1500 Battery Back-UPS after reading several posts of the deal Office Depot had on the unit. I got it for $50 after a $50 rebate. Does any use this with their Home Theatre? I am overwhelmed with everything on the market and am simply looking for good surge protection. I am running a Samsun 6187W DLP, Marantz Receiver, Marantz DVD Player and Directv HD DVR. Am I good hooking these up through this and still receiving protection?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

That was a good deal! I went and picked one up even though I really did not need it. But I have a two+ year old BX1200 which is the slightly smaller capacity version of the same APC UPS on my PC which will probably need new batteries in about a year or so, and that was even cheaper than buying new batteries for it. So I'll just swap it out now, and use my old BX1200 UPS for something else.

must have missed it. web site is at $199.99 right now.

must have missed it. web site is at $199.99 right now.

The website said $199 yesterday as well, but i called the store and they confirmed that it was $49 after the mail in rebate. The sale ended yesterday however.

just keep an eye on the office depot circulars/paper ads, they have had it on sale 3 times recently at $99 with the added $50 rebate just for 3 days.

I picked up the APC BX 1500 Battery Back-UPS after reading several posts of the deal Office Depot had on the unit. I got it for $50 after a $50 rebate. Does any use this with their Home Theatre? I am overwhelmed with everything on the market and am simply looking for good surge protection. I am running a Samsun 6187W DLP, Marantz Receiver, Marantz DVD Player and Directv HD DVR. Am I good hooking these up through this and still receiving protection?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
yes, it should protect them. just read through your equipment specs and see how much wattage they pull to make sure you don't overload it

just keep an eye on the office depot circulars/paper ads, they have had it on sale 3 times recently at $99 with the added $50 rebate just for 3 days.


hope someone post it here next time. nearest office depot 40 miles. i dont get a circular nor a paper.

office depot put the APC BX1500 back on a SUPER sale for 3 days only 2/15-2/17, $49 now! same $99 sale price as before but adds in a $50 rebate. i hate rebates but it makes for a great deal for an item that retailed $170+


Strudder, FYI, it was posted in this thread by DSSTurbo

Thanks!

The website said $199 yesterday as well, but i called the store and they confirmed that it was $49 after the mail in rebate. The sale ended yesterday however.

Yes, but if you also would have looked up the latest sale flyer online, it then it would have also showed you all of the 3 day in store sale prices and also the rebate offers. BUT.. The 3 day sale offers was only good for walk in, in store purchases and there was no such sale prices w/rebates for internet sales. Which is why when you looked it up the normal way, it only showed it for the full price.

oh well cant win them all. i caught a one day sale on my xbr2 in Nov. and the price hasn't dropped as low sense, and a last day rebate and sale on the harmony 880. i suppose i can handle missing this one.

Yesterday I received the Belkin PureAV AP30800-10 which I ordered online last week. I've got everything plugged into it. Something odd is happening though. Everything I have plugged into it seems to work fine, except the dvd player and the cable box. The dvd player was off and I tried to turn it on with the remote. It wouldn't come on, so I pushed the on button on the player and it came on fine. The display reads 'load' which is what its supposed to do if it is on and there is no disc in it. However, it will not do anything else when pushing buttons on either the remote or the player. It will not open or even turn off.
Also, the cable box is acting odd and not responding to commands. It will turn on and off, but it won't change channels and I get no picture except for about a second when I turn the box off.
Both the cable box and dvd player worked find before pulgging them into the Belkin.
The AP30800 says its running at 33%, so overload shouldn't be a concern. Everything is connected properly and all the other things I have plugged into it (tv, Mac Mini, Airport, cable modem, external hard drive) are working fine.
When I unplug the dvd player and the cable box from the Belkin and plug them into the wall, they work fine, but I plug them back into the Belkin and they don't want to work. They are getting power and come on, but nothing else.
Anyone have any idea what could be causing this?
Thanks!!!!!

Perhaps "Pure AV" is a misnomer. I see that they claim to provide "clean" power, but do not see anything about pure sine wave output. My guess is that the output is not a clean sine wave. Some units don't like that kind of power. I have seen similar problems with some Panasonic PDPs and Belkin UPS units.

Just get a good surge suppressor and save a couple of hundred bucks, as well as the headaches.

Well, things seem to be working fine now. I waited a while for the battery to charge and plugged everything back in and they all work.

Well, things seem to be working fine now. I waited a while for the battery to charge and plugged everything back in and they all work.

Glad you got it working. I just got mine in yesterday and I let the battery charge up overnight before turning anything on and I had no problems. I like it so far. Right now I have my TV, Surrond Sound and DVD Recorder plugged into it and with all 3 on it see 33% load.

Ok, so after digesting all this, i have a rather specific question. An electrician is pushing me to get the panamax 5100 for power filtering. The specs on the Brick Wall mention some capacity to filter power. How well does the brick wall filter compared to a panamax type of filter?

I am assuming the answer is that the brickwall filters plenty, especailly because i dont live in a problematic area. That being said, i feel the need to doublecheck with the experts.

What are you trying to filter, and why. In general, the best filters are inductor based series units like the brickwall, while units like the Panamax make for more effective surge suppression.

What are you trying to filter, and why. In general, the best filters are inductor based series units like the brickwall, while units like the Panamax make for more effective surge suppression.

Now I'm confused. I thought SM's were the best surge supressors available? The thought behind the Panamax was to have "clean power" going to all components. The specs on the Brickwall make it seem like it does that...is there, then, any reason to buy a panamax over a brickwall?

For a.c. surges alone, series mode units should be great. For filtering of a.c. noise they should be great. However, the rest of the story on surge proteciton, from the perspective of someone who has reapired hundreds of units damaged by power surges, is that damagae often occurs over phone, sat, and cable lines. The vast majority of systems that I have serviced with damage in tuner, audio, video, switching, and ground circuits have not had protection on the incoming signal lines. The Brickwall and similar devices generally ignore these circuits. The panamax and similar devices have protection on these lines. The filtering and claims of picture improvement are BS, IME, and anyone who understands how a SMPS works, which is found in most consumer video equipment, will confirm my opinion. I think the Panamax surge suppressors are great units but rarely is anything beyond the iftem liked below needed for protection. This assumes that you have good grounding in the system. If you don't, no surge suppressor will be as effective as it sould be. Many cable, sat, and antenna installations are not properly grounded, limiting the protection available.

One of the inexpensive choices below is as much protection, along with proper grounding, as most systems need. Even here in Gaiesville, where we get many times the number of lightning strikes as most parts of the US, these are adequate proteciton, IME, which includes nearly 3 decades of installations and service in notrht central Florida and southeast Louisiana, two of the worst places for lightning and surtges in the US.

Unless you are trying to filter something specific in terms of line noise that good grounding practices will not eliminate, these devices are more practical than the brickwall devices which lack protection on the incoming signal lines. Contrary to what the series mode people want you to believe, MOVs are quite effective and economical. Both of these units have lifetime warranties. I'd like to see what the windings in one of the Brickwall units look like after enough surges to permanently damage a high qualty MOV like are found in the better units on the market today. I'll bet they don't look like they do out of the factory.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812120408

http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?group=2&sec=detail&id=249&ly=v

They want you to be confused and afraid, my friend. Now if the start putting signal line protection on their units, then they will have something worth considering in an area with the kind of problems with surges that we have here. They likely will not, because their whole marketing ploy is to make you believe that parallel, clamping or surge diversion is the wrong method to use. Series mode systems simply cannot work on signal lines, and clamping or diversion methos are necessary for those lines. Another matter is the importance of gronding. None of the vendors make much of that becasue they want you to think that their unit is essential. The dirty little secret is that none of the sytems are as effective if your installation is not properly grounded.

Thanks lcaillo, i really appreciate you taking the time to explain in detail. You definately just saved me a couple hundred bucks.

Thanks lcaillo, i really appreciate you taking the time to explain in detail. You definately just saved me a couple hundred bucks.

bashless,

I also checked into Brick Wall's products and was going that route until I read posts by lcaillo and others and finally decided on the Panamax M8HC-PRO.

Haven't hooked up my cable lines to it as yet but will before spring and lightening arrive. I'm a little concerned about signal loss although Panamax says it will only be ~1db.

Anyway, listen to lcaillo/Leonard and save some money.
---Jerry---

Ok, so then the next question is: is there any reason to spend $60 on the Panamax when the CyberPower is $20 and comes with apparently a higher surge protection and more outlets?

bashless,

Panamax M8HC-PRO.

Haven't hooked up my cable lines to it as yet but will before spring and lightening arrive. I'm a little concerned about signal loss although Panamax says it will only be ~1db.

Anyway, listen to lcaillo/Leonard and save some money.
---Jerry---

i was concerned about signal loss also. however, i hooked up my cable coax (TWC) to the M8HC-PRO and noticed no degradation in PQ. in fact , and I'm hesitant to say this because i don't quite understand how, the PQ on my analog channels seems to be clearer. as good as the digital channels, but still nowhere near the quality of my HD channels.
my only regret is that the M8HC-PRO does not provide for cable and antenna hook up at the same time (they both use the same input/output) i suppose when i get around to putting up my antenna I'll check to see if they have an add on module for this.

anyone know why you aren't supposed to use the satellite input/output on this unit for cable or antenna? what would the harm be in connecting an antenna to the sat. jacks?

What about black outs and brown outs? Don't these also damage sensitive electronics?

Isn't it better to get a UPS unit that does AVR? Or is the money better spent getting a solid surge protector? I'm trying to decide between the two.

I would definitely make sure you get something with UPS. I had a 2-3 second brownout recently which screwed up my convergence on my CRT RPTV - no UPS - I only had a surge. I might have to have a board replaced now.

....

anyone know why you aren't supposed to use the satellite input/output on this unit for cable or antenna? what would the harm be in connecting an antenna to the sat. jacks?

Strutter, I can't think of any reason why you could not use the satellite jack for your antenna connection. Did you read somewhere that you are not suppose to? I think it would be fine. Just be sure to properly ground your antenna if it is an outside antenna.

I would definitely make sure you get something with UPS. I had a 2-3 second brownout recently which screwed up my convergence on my CRT RPTV - no UPS - I only had a surge. I might have to have a board replaced now.

Ok, another followup - If i have (in the future) the following system, is there any need for a UPS?

Sharp 52" D92 LCD
Denon 3808
PS3
Comcast DVR
Old, Crappy DVD Player

I know that things with lamps need UPS's, but does any of the equipment above matter if it is abruptly shut down? I dont care about things like not being able to record with the power off.

This all being said, i snagged the APC UPS deal at Office Depot, but it doesnt have co-ax or ethernet protection, so i was going to move that to my secondary, much cheaper system.

I would definitely make sure you get something with UPS. I had a 2-3 second brownout recently which screwed up my convergence on my CRT RPTV - no UPS - I only had a surge. I might have to have a board replaced now.

Wow! Sorry to hear that. Last summer I experienced 2 brownouts while watching DVDs. And on both occasions my plasma tv turned off itself for like 2 to 3 seconds. Then turned it self back on. The DVD player stayed on the whole time.

I'm in new york and it was pretty hot last summer. Every one was running their Air conditioner and putting a strain on the electric company.

bashless, one annoying thing about the Comcast DVR is that it only keeps its program info while the power is on. Once you lose power, it has to re-download all the program data, which can take as long as 18 hours.

bashless, one annoying thing about the Comcast DVR is that it only keeps its program info while the power is on. Once you lose power, it has to re-download all the program data, which can take as long as 18 hours.

I've noticed that....it oftentimes freezes and my fix is to pull the plug on it. It does take a while to get the full program back, but ive noticed that it will start to pull the next hour or two of information within 5-10 minutes or so.

I'm rarely doing intense tv watching...unless the cubs or bears are on, in which case i dont really need any other programming info. That being said, if an espiode of Gray's Anatomy or Oprah got cut off or was left unrecorded, the wife would be none too pleased.

On a separate note, i've noticed that the co-ax surgenders screw with my cable box, so i just have one sitting in front of my modem. I could care less if the cable box gets fried, as long as the surge wont go through the HDMI/Components to hurt my TV. Is that possible?

Strutter, Did you read somewhere that you are not suppose to? I think it would be fine. .


the instruction manual for the panamax designates an in and out for cableTV or antenna . and 2 in and out for satellite only. the unit is labeled this way also. I'll have to check the manual again but i believe i read not to connect any other way.

What about black outs and brown outs? Don't these also damage sensitive electronics?

Isn't it better to get a UPS unit that does AVR? Or is the money better spent getting a solid surge protector? I'm trying to decide between the two.

the Panamax has what they call protect or disconnect circuitry. Auto-resetting Over voltage Shutoff 144V +/- 8V . Auto-resetting Under voltage Shutoff 90V +/- 6V.
this i assume should protect connected equipment from power fluctuations that occur during blackout /brownout situations. i would think abrupt power loss from a blackout would cause no damage with todays electronics. the problem would arise during low voltage brownouts and when power is restored from a blackout. and the resulting power surges. that being said (knock on wood) i haven't had a power outage in 2 years and cant ever remember a brownout. i am considering adding a UPS just to run the fan on my xbr2 and possibly a DVR at some point. i just don't see it as an important priority as surge protection.

Blackouts/brownouts haven't generally been n issue where I live (central CA), but have obviously gotten more common the last few years during summer months due to A/C overuse as our state gets seemingly hotter every year! See...Al Gore was on to something! ;)

I know I should just do a search here, but any recommendations for the right power supply/protector in the $30-$60-ish range for my setup? Saw a Monster Cable model @ Target for $50, but they also had a similarly rated model (without the coax ins/outs for cable/satellite signals) from another manufacturer for about half that. Or are any units in this price range even worth it?

Only real concern it to the TV itself. Cable box/DVR fried by a surge? Comcast replaces it. $120 DVD player and great sounding, but relatively inexpensive HTIB setup? Cheaper to replace. Have heard that surges can potentially do a number on convergence and the related ICs and whatnot on CRT RPTVs. Got my set looking excellent--rivals and dare I say even exceeds other HDTV techs (IMHO) and would like to keep it that way if CA energy levels take another summertime dip. Last thing I need is a possible convergence circuit cookout this summer!

the instruction manual for the panamax designates an in and out for cableTV or antenna . and 2 in and out for satellite only. the unit is labeled this way also. I'll have to check the manual again but i believe i read not to connect any other way.

Actually, I just visited panamax's website and it seems that the satellite and cable connectors are indeed different.
From: http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?group=1&sec=detail&id=236&ly=h

Antenna/Cable Lines Protected 1
Antenna/Cable Clamping 1.5V
Antenna/Cable Attenuation <1dB
Satellite Lines Protected 2
Satellite Clamping 27V
Satellite Attenuation <1dB

...
Only real concern it to the TV itself. Cable box/DVR fried by a surge? Comcast replaces it. ...

Will this cable box be connected directly to the tv? If so, your tv would be at risk also.

Will this cable box be connected directly to the tv? If so, your tv would be at risk also.

Connected to TV via component cables, not via coax. Difference there?

What I meant was that I was less concerned about the health of a cable box during a nasty surge. Obviously the cable box/HDDVR would be connected to the same surge protector as all other A/V units (incl TV). Wouldn't actually want any gear to get cooked after a power surge/spike.

So...suggeestions for reasonably priced units? As I mentioned, the Monster Cable power strip/protector w/ coax ins/outs was @ Target for arond 50 bucks. They have a similar model (not from Monster) for half that--but it lacks coax ins/outs. Costco has another, very much like the Monster Cable unit (incl coax ins/outs) for around 40 bucks.

Worth it?

i was concerned about signal loss also. however, i hooked up my cable coax (TWC) to the M8HC-PRO and noticed no degradation in PQ. in fact , and I'm hesitant to say this because i don't quite understand how, the PQ on my analog channels seems to be clearer. as good as the digital channels, but still nowhere near the quality of my HD channels.
my only regret is that the M8HC-PRO does not provide for cable and antenna hook up at the same time (they both use the same input/output) i suppose when i get around to putting up my antenna I'll check to see if they have an add on module for this.

anyone know why you aren't supposed to use the satellite input/output on this unit for cable or antenna? what would the harm be in connecting an antenna to the sat. jacks?

I assume that the sat jacks have to be able to pass d.c. to power the LNBs, while the cable line does not. The thing is, many antennae use preamps that need d.c. power as well. It seems to me that the sat lines would work better for the antenna in this case. Don't do much antenna work any more so I am not sure. Give them a call.

What about black outs and brown outs? Don't these also damage sensitive electronics?

Isn't it better to get a UPS unit that does AVR? Or is the money better spent getting a solid surge protector? I'm trying to decide between the two.

Most modern power supplies are very robust in dealing with low voltage. They just shut down when they can't deliver or get hot. It is usually the surge when it comes back up or situations where a neutral leg is lost that do the damage.

UPS units often have inferior protection from surges, often not covering the signal lines at all. They also produce lousy power unless you spend the $ for a pure sine wave output. Some power supplies don't like them at all. They are added maintenence, not environmentally friendly in the long run, and the protection that they add is mostly myth.

We install hundreds of systems a year and rarely use a UPS. When we do it is mostly to provide convienience in a power outage, not for protection.

i was concerned about signal loss also. however, i hooked up my cable coax (TWC) to the M8HC-PRO and noticed no degradation in PQ. in fact , and I'm hesitant to say this because i don't quite understand how, the PQ on my analog channels seems to be clearer. as good as the digital channels, but still nowhere near the quality of my HD channels.
my only regret is that the M8HC-PRO does not provide for cable and antenna hook up at the same time (they both use the same input/output) i suppose when i get around to putting up my antenna I'll check to see if they have an add on module for this.

anyone know why you aren't supposed to use the satellite input/output on this unit for cable or antenna? what would the harm be in connecting an antenna to the sat. jacks?

The loss is usually insignificant and is simply due to the connectors themselves which have about .5dB of loss per connector.

Most modern power supplies are very robust in dealing with low voltage. They just shut down when they can't deliver or get hot. It is usually the surge when it comes back up or situations where a neutral leg is lost that do the damage.

UPS units often have inferior protection from surges, often not covering the signal lines at all. They also produce lousy power unless you spend the $ for a pure sine wave output. Some power supplies don't like them at all. They are added maintenence, not environmentally friendly in the long run, and the protection that they add is mostly myth.

We install hundreds of systems a year and rarely use a UPS. When we do it is mostly to provide convienience in a power outage, not for protection.

Great info.

I purchased the Tripp Lite SMART1500LCD UPS primarily to cool the bulb on my DLP TV in the event of a power outage. It also claims that it can regulate power from 75V to 147V using a less than "true" PWM sine wave and it also provides surge supression for up to 480 joules.

Are the voltage regulation and surge supression on this particular item legitimate and or adequate for home theater, or are they mythical as you mention above?

Most modern power supplies are very robust in dealing with low voltage. They just shut down when they can't deliver or get hot. It is usually the surge when it comes back up or situations where a neutral leg is lost that do the damage.

UPS units often have inferior protection from surges, often not covering the signal lines at all. They also produce lousy power unless you spend the $ for a pure sine wave output. Some power supplies don't like them at all. They are added maintenence, not environmentally friendly in the long run, and the protection that they add is mostly myth.

We install hundreds of systems a year and rarely use a UPS. When we do it is mostly to provide convienience in a power outage, not for protection.

So would it be a waste of my money to get this:

http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?ts=1172593072205&storeId=10001&productId=148360&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&cmArea=FEATURED:SC3:CG75:DP1916:CL141931

to use with my new Samsung DLP TV?


Should I just get a good surge supressor strip? I don't want the bulb to premeturely go out, but I also don't want to waset money on a UPS if it is really not going to add anything for me.

This sums up how I feel pretty much...
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20021125h.gif

UPS are different, I have a couple of those on my PC, but you don't really need one on your TV, unless you have a HTPC or something. Probably most models you could buy at an office-supply type store (Staples, etc) are not going to be strong enough to keep your hugescreen HDTV powered up anyway. They are designed for home computers using 75-100 watts, not HDTVs which can use up to 350-400w alone.

I use a UPS with AVR, and it makes a big difference in extending the life of the lamp.

-Ed

Most modern power supplies are very robust in dealing with low voltage. They just shut down when they can't deliver or get hot. It is usually the surge when it comes back up or situations where a neutral leg is lost that do the damage.

UPS units often have inferior protection from surges, often not covering the signal lines at all. They also produce lousy power unless you spend the $ for a pure sine wave output. Some power supplies don't like them at all. They are added maintenence, not environmentally friendly in the long run, and the protection that they add is mostly myth.

We install hundreds of systems a year and rarely use a UPS. When we do it is mostly to provide convienience in a power outage, not for protection.

What would you recommend for me in that case? I had a 2 second brown out which damaged my TV - only a UPS would have protected it I presume.

I'm now using a Belkin all-in-one type unit that has power surge, simulated sine wave UPS, and power condition (AP3080010).

I use a UPS with AVR, and it makes a big difference in extending the life of the lamp.

-Ed

At best, it makes a very small difference in the life of a lamp. And then, only if you have repeated power outages, maybe.

So would it be a waste of my money to get this:

http://www.staples.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StaplesProductDisplay?ts=1172593072205&storeId=10001&productId=148360&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&cmArea=FEATURED:SC3:CG75:DP1916:CL141931

to use with my new Samsung DLP TV?


Should I just get a good surge supressor strip? I don't want the bulb to premeturely go out, but I also don't want to waset money on a UPS if it is really not going to add anything for me.

Does it cover all of the incoming lines to your system? How do the specs compare to the two units that I recommended for surge suppression? Is it producing a pure sine wave? Why do you need a UPS anyway?

IMO, yes, it is a poor choice.

To me, the real advantage of a UPS would be to keep from losing recordings on yourTivo/DVR.

Anyone know if the LED based DLPs require a cool down period at turnoff?

To me, the real advantage of a UPS would be to keep from losing recordings on yourTivo/DVR.

Anyone know if the LED based DLPs require a cool down period at turnoff?

LED's are still prone to having their life shortened by overheating.

-Ed

Ok ...so for best protection and "cleaner" power do I plug the UPS into my Monster 3500 MKII (with DLP plugged into the UPS to avoid bulb blowing with outtage) or do I plug the Monster into the UPS (with everything plugged into the Monster)?

Thoughts?

The need for a UPS for keeping a fan running on a lamp after a power outage to cool down the lamp is highly overstated. First, the number of outages over the life of a lamp wil be relatively few in most areas. Second, the mechanism that might cause damage to the lamp is any thermal lag, causing an increase in the lamp temperaturein the moments after power down. I have monitored the temperature in several RP and FP units and found no such temperature increase. Third, the primary reason for running the fan noted by tech reps at several major vendors that I have quizzed on the matter is to allow for a quicker restart, as the systems have thermal switches that will not alow a hot lamp to stike an arc. Fourth, the rate of cooling is not substantially different enough to effect devitrification in the glass. Finally, several of the vendors who state that it is important to run the fans also state that the likelihood of damage is remote.

I have been selling, installing, and servicing lamp based sytems in storm and outage prone areas for years and do not install UPS on most systems. We have had no problems with lamp life at all on hundreds of systems.

Good surge suppression and good grounding are all that are needed or significantly useful to protect most systems. If it makes you feel better or want to support battery makers, then buy a UPS. If you get one, get a good one. Compare the specs to a reference surge suppressor. Make sure that all incoming lines go through the device. Be aware that most people who buy a UPS are getting protection inferior to the $20 surge suppressor that I recommended.

Interesting take Icaillo. So your recommendation is drop the UPS and plug all into a suppressor.

So let me create a scenario..we lived in a 50 year old farm house on 40 acres a few years ago. Everytime my wife used her hair dryer without advance notice the fuse blew on the circuit that included the DLP tv. This happened at least once a week.

Absent the obvious electrical system upgrade, in THAT situation would one need a UPS tp avoid damage?

Don't count 100% on any surge protector in a severe storm or even just a normal lightning storm, to always protect you from possible damage!

Just look at page 4 of this manual where it says "to disconnect a surge protector during a thunder storm".


http://www.monstercable.com/lit/INT_MANUL_AVS_2000.pdf

http://www.audioholics.com/news/uploads/MonsterLightning.gif

Sure many might say that it is common sense to do that, and it is. But they way these things are promoted and advertised, just about everyone thinks that they will also offer 100% protection no matter what. But they never print info like that in their ads for the products on on the outside of the box, it's only presented in the manuals, and only almost like the proverbial hidden fine print. And there are a lot of people that will never read the manual in a way to see instructions like that, and even if they do, there is probably only a very small percentage of people that will actually follow it and unplug it during a storm.

Interesting take Icaillo. So your recommendation is drop the UPS and plug all into a suppressor.

So let me create a scenario..we lived in a 50 year old farm house on 40 acres a few years ago. Everytime my wife used her hair dryer without advance notice the fuse blew on the circuit that included the DLP tv. This happened at least once a week.

Absent the obvious electrical system upgrade, in THAT situation would one need a UPS tp avoid damage?

Perhaps this would be a situation where a UPS would make sense, but the far greater danger to your lamp life is the frequent restarts. This ages a lamp much more than no fan after shutdown.

Obviously, you should be more cautious with your use of high current devices and should seriously consider some electrical work.

Don't count 100% on any surge protector in a severe storm or even just a normal lightning storm, to always protect you from possible damage!

Just look at page 4 of this manual where it says "to disconnect a surge protector during a thunder storm".


http://www.monstercable.com/lit/INT_MANUL_AVS_2000.pdf

http://www.audioholics.com/news/uploads/MonsterLightning.gif

Sure many might say that it is common sense to do that, and it is. But they way these things are promoted and advertised, just about everyone thinks that they will also offer 100% protection no matter what. But they never print info like that in their ads for the products on on the outside of the box, it's only presented in the manuals, and only almost like the proverbial hidden fine print. And there are a lot of people that will never read the manual in a way to see instructions like that, and even if they do, there is probably only a very small percentage of people that will actually follow it and unplug it during a storm.

Ever notice in the first couple of pages of all owners manuals for consumer electronics that connect to any signal line there is always the same discussion of grounding? How many people pay attention to that one? How many antenna, sat or cable installers actuall ground them according to electrical codes?

Unplugging the a.c., btw, without disconnecting the other lines into a system would be a bad idea. If something comes in on a cable line, for instance, there are still paths that can cause great damage. If you are going to disconnect, disconnect everything, just like you should protect all incoming lines.

I never bother to disconnect anything. I have plenty of protection and check my grounds every year. I don't recommend that my client bother to do so. A porperly connected and protected system is pretty safe, even here in the most active lightning area in the US. We just don't see damage on our clients' systems that are properly protectd. I service systems all the time that are not properly connected or where cable installers have removed the protection on that line. I did a service call yesterday where a Cox cable box was damaged and nothing else was. They had bypassed the surge suppressor as they always do. Luckilly, the other equipment was ok, but it could have easily been a path for more damage.

Provantage has the PF40 on sale for a really good price.

http://www.provantage.com/belkin-ap21300-12~7BELD00X.htm

Does anyone out there have a opinion of the Panamax 5300ex model surge/conditioner? Is it a good match to a sxrd set?

What Size UPS have some of You been using for 400 -500 Watts ?

I have two retail stores. I have sold various brands of UPS's since they became consumer items in the 80's. I typically have 5-10 in use in my business and home at any given time.

Like paper shredders, people tend to buy too small a one for their needs. They also tend to plug additional things into the UPS and exceed its capacity, because the plug is there.

They all break (wear out), eventually. Often one thats been in service for several year appears to be working but won't when the power goes completely out. You should unplug them under load occaisionally to test them.

In my opinion, straight surge surpressor (at least the ones I've seen) wear out. I'd replace them at lease every 4-5 years.

In my experience, over half of surge damage comes through phone lines and coax (in Oklahoma, that typically lightning damage). So if you only protect your power and have even a phone line for pay-per-ver, you aren't safe.

for 400-500 watts I'd get at least 750va protection. (quick and dirty, mutiply va times.6 for equivalent watts)

Look at tripplite's web page, for instance.

Thats my 2 cents worth, your mileage may very.

Ever notice in the first couple of pages of all owners manuals for consumer electronics that connect to any signal line there is always the same discussion of grounding? How many people pay attention to that one? How many antenna, sat or cable installers actuall ground them according to electrical codes?

.


could you point us toward info concerning proper grounding or if you can elaborate on what you said in the quote above.

i know that i have a bare copper wire coming off a coax splitter and connected to my outside ground wire that is staked in the ground. the phone box is connected to the same main ground wire. is this grounded according to electrical code? how does one check for proper grounding?

could you point us toward info concerning proper grounding or if you can elaborate on what you said in the quote above.

i know that i have a bare copper wire coming off a coax splitter and connected to my outside ground wire that is staked in the ground. the phone box is connected to the same main ground wire. is this grounded according to electrical code? how does one check for proper grounding?
Good question. I had been wondering the same thing myself. Thanks for all the good tips everyone.

I will be getting my first RP HDTV (SXRD) soon and I think I will go the route of switching out my current surge suppressor for a CyberPower or Panamax suppressor and then as soon as possible, adding some whole-house protection.

Does anyone have experience with this whole-house package or SurgeAssure as a company in general?
http://www.surgeassure.com/product.asp?prod=Main%20Zone

Look in the first few pages of the owners manual of any TV, VCR, STB, or other CE product that connects to a signal line. The bottom line is that all incoming signal lines must be grounded to the same ground electrode as the a.c. service. At or near the entry point to the home there should be a ground block on each line with a heavy gauge wire connected back to that ground. The mast of any antenna or sat dish should also be grounded in the same way. Everything needs to be grounded to a single point. There should not be more than a few ohms of resistance between the ground of any line and the a.c. ground. Connections at the clamps should be check frequently to be sure that they are clean and tight.

Whole house suppression is a good supplement, IMO, but most do not cover the signal lines, only the a.c. We see lots of systems on surge suppressors for a.c. only that have damage that came in over signal lines. We rarely, if ever, see systems damaged with quality proteciton on both. Read and compare the specifications carefully. If you use a unit that is installed in the panel, have an electrician install it.

I have two retail stores. I have sold various brands of UPS's since they became consumer items in the 80's. I typically have 5-10 in use in my business and home at any given time.

Like paper shredders, people tend to buy too small a one for their needs. They also tend to plug additional things into the UPS and exceed its capacity, because the plug is there.

They all break (wear out), eventually. Often one thats been in service for several year appears to be working but won't when the power goes completely out. You should unplug them under load occaisionally to test them.

In my opinion, straight surge surpressor (at least the ones I've seen) wear out. I'd replace them at lease every 4-5 years.

In my experience, over half of surge damage comes through phone lines and coax (in Oklahoma, that typically lightning damage). So if you only protect your power and have even a phone line for pay-per-ver, you aren't safe.

for 400-500 watts I'd get at least 750va protection. (quick and dirty, mutiply va times.6 for equivalent watts)

Look at tripplite's web page, for instance.

Thats my 2 cents worth, your mileage may very.

It is not necessary to replace surge suppressors in a precautionary manner unless you are taking lots of really big hits. MOVs don't degrade that fast, and when they do fail, they fail with a dead short, which is what they do to protect anyway. They just don't recover. This blows the fuse or breaker in the SS unit or at the breaker panel. You will know when they need to be replaced because nothing will work.

how does one check for proper grounding?

Disconnect the cable coming out of the wall from your equipment and measure the resistance from the signal ground to the ground on your a.c. outlet. If you have more than a few ohms, you need to work on your grounding.

I check my grounds at the grond blocks and clamps every year. I do not recommend painting over them as some people do. If you paint over a poor connection with latex paint, you can end up with a nicely oxidized connection. A wire brush and a couple of crescent wrenches and five minutes is all it takes.

Quote: "It is not necessary to replace surge suppressors in a precautionary manner unless you are taking lots of really big hits. MOVs don't degrade that fast, and when they do fail, they fail with a dead short, which is what they do to protect anyway. They just don't recover. This blows the fuse or breaker in the SS unit or at the breaker panel. You will know when they need to be replaced because nothing will work."

Hmm, don't take this as being argumentative. It may very well be that I am in a 'high hits' area as well... inwestern Oklahoma we have frequent lighting storms (in and out of season). We are having temporary wind induced outages as I write this. We have also have had several ice storms this year. In addition, I know the voltage varies on occaision.

I have had a different experience. Virtually all surge surpressors (and UPS's) I have installed in the last 20 years have failed. The 3 to 5 year range seems average. In addition, look at the stats of new surge surpressors, typically, the stats significantly exceed similar units 4 years older. They either fail and don't work at all, or the light signifying protection is active goes out or flickers.

That said, I wouldn't go in and replace all my surpressors just because they were 3 years old. However, I am installing a new Samsung 5088W, DVD, HDTV Satellite DVR and I am replacing all the old surge surpressors at the same time.

I went with a Belkin PF60 (see their web site and search for PF60 ) and a Tripplite 750 VA UPS for the DLP TV and Satellite Recvr. Investing around$400 in surge/UPS might seem like overkill for a system worth a little over $4k? Dunno.

I do not profess to know whether a degraded MOV is less effective in any way. It seems logical they might be, but it could be they are not.

A MOV is a resistor that has a very high resistance at voltages below its clamping voltage. As its clamping voltage is exceeded, its resistance decreases and effectively becomes a short. When they fail, they become a short at all voltages. They fail because the total energy exceeds its capability to dissipate or because with repeated hits, it breaks down. Certainly, it may be possible to have one in a manner in which it would not short, but I have never seen one.

Definitely replace the unit if it indicates it is not working properly. Several brands have lifetime warranties. I have found Panamax to be very good about replacing the units. Most of the failures have not been related to MOVs but other parts such as voltage cutoff circuits. I have not had the experience you have with surge suppressor failures.

I checked my resistance and I got around 20 Is that bad? I contacted the center wire of my coax to the ground (the hole below the two parallel to each other of the nearest outlet). A lot of the grounding in my home (built in the mid 60's) is done by grounding to the plumbing. Is this normal? There used to be an antenna on my roof, and I found what I will call a 'grounding coupler' for the coax coming from it that has a ground wire attached to the plumbing. Should I employ something like that in the coax coming from the cable company?

I have to say that I am on the fence with expensive surge/power solutions. There are people who claim that they have a better picture or the sound quality is better. Could they all be hallucinating? I have personally experienced some interference in a sound system when a light switch is turned out. You hear a 'thump' sound coming from the speakers when power is turned on. Perhaps many of us have experienced that, it seems quite common. And if you can hear something like that, wouldnt the same spikes/interference affect your other equipment?

It would seem that clean power is useful and beneficial to an expensive HT system. Also, SM surge suppressors would appear to perform far better than MOV's. They are faster, can suppress more power, and dont appear to wear out. No fancy, and from what I hear difficult to collect on, equipment guarantees. Just a product that performs the job better, for a longer period of time. Im personally interested in the Zero Surge products but I am curious about the 'clean power' of some of the Monster products as well for roughly the same price. My TV cost $2500, so something that protects it very well is important to me.

I checked my resistance and I got around 20 Is that bad? I contacted the center wire of my coax to the ground (the hole below the two parallel to each other of the nearest outlet). A lot of the grounding in my home (built in the mid 60's) is done by grounding to the plumbing. Is this normal? There used to be an antenna on my roof, and I found what I will call a 'grounding coupler' for the coax coming from it that has a ground wire attached to the plumbing. Should I employ something like that in the coax coming from the cable company?

I have to say that I am on the fence with expensive surge/power solutions. There are people who claim that they have a better picture or the sound quality is better. Could they all be hallucinating? I have personally experienced some interference in a sound system when a light switch is turned out. You hear a 'thump' sound coming from the speakers when power is turned on. Perhaps many of us have experienced that, it seems quite common. And if you can hear something like that, wouldnt the same spikes/interference affect your other equipment?

It would seem that clean power is useful and beneficial to an expensive HT system. Also, SM surge suppressors would appear to perform far better than MOV's. They are faster, can suppress more power, and dont appear to wear out. No fancy, and from what I hear difficult to collect on, equipment guarantees. Just a product that performs the job better, for a longer period of time. Im personally interested in the Zero Surge products but I am curious about the 'clean power' of some of the Monster products as well for roughly the same price. My TV cost $2500, so something that protects it very well is important to me.

You should read less than 20 ohms from the shield of the coax to the ground on the a.c. system. I like to see no more than afew ohms. The center wire is your signal line and it should read much more than 20 ohms.

ALL incoming coaxial lines must have a ground block connected to the a.c. service ground electrode, so yes, your cable should have this. Call the cable company and have them do it correctly. Grounding using plumbing is a bad idea, generally, and may or may not be codeworthy, depending on the specifics.

There are several issues with respect to expensive power systems that need to be understood. Surge suppression is a good idea in most places and essential protection in some (like here). Filtering is another matter. I can make a difference in systems where there is a noisy line with components that use a traditional power supply, like most audio equipment. It is generally better, however, to solve noise and grounding problems that are the source rather than relying on filters. There are some cases where a filter is needed, however. In the case of video, the improvements that people report are almost certainly realated to expectation or placebo effects in most cases. Some may be due to reduction of ground loops which may cause visible effects. The latter should almost always be eliminated with proper installation practices, and the same effects will be found in a good basic surge suppressor that ties all the grounds together just like an expensive filter. Video displays and most sources use switching power supplies that make it almost impossible to find traces of low level line noise in the power supply after conversion in the switching supply.

It seems intuitive that "clean power" would be helpful. In the case of some conventional power supply designs this is true. An understanding of the modern SMPS supplies makes it clear that there is virtually no benefit for these systems, however. As for SM systems, they are fine filters. They are lousy protection if they do not cover all the incoming signal lines. Also, the claims that they are unaffected by even large surges seems sill to me. They are basically big inductors. The do dissipate heat in large surges and the windings may be very durable, but with time I suspect that they are affected just like any transformer. The aditional problems that can arise with improperly grounded isolation schemes can make them poor choices as well.

Good common sense, good installation and grounding practices, and realtively inexpensive surge suppressors that cove all incoming lines are all that most people need.

[QUOTE=lcaillo]You should read less than 20 ohms from the shield of the coax to the ground on the a.c. system. I like to see no more than afew ohms. The center wire is your signal line and it should read much more than 20 ohms.
QUOTE]

lcaillo,

I’m a little confused and need your help about where to make the coax connection.

Is the correct procedure to connect the outer shield (the one with the screw nut) of the coax to the ground of the AC receptacle/outlet?

And the closer the resistance is to zero Ohm’s the better the ground?

And the incorrect procedure would be to use the center wire of the coax to the ground of the AC receptacle/outlet?

Thanks,
---Jerry---

Correct

Correct
Leonard,

Thanks again for your speedy reply.
---Jerry---

I don't know if it's been asked in this thread as I've only skimmed through it after reading Doug Deacon's post --- Is there a risk in plugging in an MOV surge protector into an SM surge protector?

My reason for doing this would be to extend the length of the SM protector from the electical outlet (outlet is near the corner of the room while my HT goodies are centered on the wall. Most equipment will be plugged directly into the SM, if the cords will reach it. Also, it would provide co-ax protection with the MOV I would buy (or will it?).

You need to address the question to the manufacturer of the SM device that you are using. If it uses isolated output, then you have a grounding issue and the unit with the protection for the coax line must be connected to the a.c. outlet directly. If it uses a common ground, then may have no problem, other than you are increasing the length of the ground path by placing two units in series. Make sure that your other lines into the system are grounded at the entry points like they should be.

A FRIEND GAVE ME A SHAPE MAGNETRONICS LINETAMER PCLT 600 POWER CONDITIONER AND LINE VOLTAGE REGULATER THE UNIT HANDLES UP TO 600 WATTS OF POWER. AND THATS ALL I KNOW ABOUT IT. I CANT FIND ANY INFO ON THE WEB ABOUT IT. ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT?

oops sorry for the caps lock .didnt realize it was on until after i finished typing..not yelling.

I don't know if it's been asked in this thread as I've only skimmed through it after reading Doug Deacon's post --- Is there a risk in plugging in an MOV surge protector into an SM surge protector?

My reason for doing this would be to extend the length of the SM protector from the electical outlet (outlet is near the corner of the room while my HT goodies are centered on the wall. Most equipment will be plugged directly into the SM, if the cords will reach it. Also, it would provide co-ax protection with the MOV I would buy (or will it?).

If you have a series mode supressor, don't even worry about an MOV protector. I have an Adcom ACE-315 SM protector for a/v gear and ZeroSurge/Brickwall surge suppressors for the PCs/network. Zero Surge invented series mode technology, and they license it out to all who use it. Go to www.zerosurge.com for all the info about MOV/series mode.

I think I have seen on the Zero Surge website that they DO NOT recommend plugging a MOV protector in to a series mode protector.

Dave

The technology that ZS uses is not really that unique. Virtually every power line filter uses the same technology, only at a much smaller scale that does not provide effective protection. There are several statements on their site that are obviously either wrong or misleading. They include:

"Only normal mode surges enter buildings "
This is simply not the case. They later go on to say that these surges can actually create problems in systems with three way clamping. Which is it? do they enter the building or not? I have seen enough burned connectors on cable and sat inputs and seen enough vaporized ground traces to know that the do enter the building, even with proper grounding.

"Modern equipment is inherently immune to common mode surges"
Again, simply a faulty assumption at best, or misleading spin. I fix this kind of damage all the time. What they fail to tell you is that when a nearby lightning strike occurs, the entire ground system may go high for an instant. In that period of time, normal thinking about grounds is irrelevant. The current has to go somewhere, and if there is a voltage between two points current is going to flow through the easiest path.


"Mode 2 (all mode) products divert surges to the ground wire"
Simply incorrect. They clamp any line that is higher than the clamping voltage of the device realtive to another line that is lower. If the ground side goes higher than the hot side, current gets dumped to the side with lower potential. Regardless, when a MOV operates, the connected equipment sees no voltage across the lines higher than the clamping voltage. Surges are diverted to the lower potential. That may be the ground, or it may not. That is the point of having the MOVs across all combinations.

The fact is that SM units generally do not protect against what I have experienced to be the most damaging of incoming surges, those that come in on the ground side. The assume current sinking on the ground will always be adequate. The facts are that ground integrity varies, during surge events ground are not necessarily the lowest potential in the system, and that MOVs are a useful and inexpensive method for protecting a system.

Series mode filters are good filters and good suppression on the lines they protect. The problem is that they are incomplete protection for most systems. If you do not live in a lightning prone area they may be fine. Here in north central Florida, my esperience is that MOVs are more practical. They are certainly less expensive and have worked great in the hundreds of systems that we have them protecting.

BTW, that tranformer in your amplifier uses the same technology that ZS does and I suspect that the manufacturer is not paying them a royalty. There is nothing revolutionary about their filter design. The only difference, as I said before, is scale and bandwidth of their filters.

One aspect of surge suppression that is over looked is the condition of the electrical outlet energizing the surge suppressor. An ungrounded outlet may seem grounded to the surge device if a grounded satellite system or TV antenna is powered from that device. Make sure your power recepticle is wired properly.

While this is good advice, it is rarely the case that outlets are wired incorrectly. Of the hundreds of systems that I have evaluated, I can only recall two that had the neutral and live reversed, and none that were not grounded as expected. Problems with grounding are far more likely to occur at the ground electrode connections on the electrical service or with incorrectly installed sat and cable systems.

Ok I looked into both and it seems you can get a PC type with line voltage, broadband and phone line protection, while the home entertainment only gives line voltage protection.

I know you can use a PC on a TV and visa versa, but comment are appreciated. I like the idea of having the coax protected too

Example below.


APC Back-UPS ES USB 650 w/TEL & COAX (stated for workstation

APC Line-R 1200VA Automatic Voltage Regulator (stated for home entertainment)

Monster powers Clean Power probably helps more with analog devices than with digital but I have the Power Bar 1100 ($199) and it does a great job.

Monster powers Clean Power probably helps more with analog devices than with digital but I have the Power Bar 1100 ($199) and it does a great job.


What if the power drops for say 1-10 seconds and then comes back or worse if it does this several times, will this device protect that situation?

thank in advance

If you want the ultimate in clean power go no further than this:
http://www.bluecircle.com/index.php?page_id=7449

Ok I looked into both and it seems you can get a PC type with line voltage, broadband and phone line protection, while the home entertainment only gives line voltage protection. Not a fair generalization. Check out the H and S lines from APC; they cover all input lines.

Not a fair generalization. Check out the H and S lines from APC; they cover all input lines.

APS offers protection for PCs and HomeEntertainment products, when you look at similiarly priced products <100$) , one would conclude that the products designed for PCs work better for home entertainment than the home entertainment products themselves. Maybe its the mindset of the 90's overflowing to today.

.

.............. one would conclude that the products designed for PCs work better for home entertainment than the home entertainment products themselves. Can you elaborate on why you say this?

Can you elaborate on why you say this?

The PC devices that I saw that sell for 100$ have a battery back up along with surge protection, the home entertainment one (less than 100$) just has surge protection. Personally me biggest problem power wise is 1-2 times a month we have power burps (for a a lack of a better word). Power is lost, comes back on, and goes off, all in about 2 seconds. Several times recently we lost power, came back on , went off , came back on, went off, all in less than 10 seconds. I didn't have my new set on at the time so I'm not sure if it would have been a problem.

Sure you can get a audio video product with battery back up, but it costs you 500 bucks, where as you can get one designated for a PC for less than 100. Look at link below (check out options under PC versus homeentertainment or audio/video) and also look around the web, see if you can get home entertainment classifiec units with battery for less than 100 bucks.

http://www.apc.com/products/category.cfm?id=15&segmentID=1

regards,
avs marty

Marty,

Could it be you are comparing apples to oranges? At least to me you are. It seems to me that the PC units uses a square sine wave versus the home entertainment sine wave. Two different signals and possible technology? Is it a marketing hype? Probably to some extent. Some people will be able to hear the difference and other will not. I suppose the old adage is true you get what you pay for. I mean no offense just clarification.

Marty,

Could it be you are comparing apples to oranges? At least to me you are. It seems to me that the PC units uses a square sine wave versus the home entertainment sine wave. Two different signals and possible technology? Is it a marketing hype? Probably to some extent. Some people will be able to hear the difference and other will not. I suppose the old adage is true you get what you pay for. I mean no offense just clarification.Exactly. I would have no problem putting that PC unit on a RP or FP system to protect the lamp but I would not like to have my analog amps running on square waves. So, I understand where AVS Marty is coming from although I would not reach his conclusion. And I'll stick with my S-15s.

Exactly. I would have no problem putting that PC unit on a RP or FP system to protect the lamp but I would not like to have my analog amps running on square waves. So, I understand where AVS Marty is coming from although I would not reach his conclusion. And I'll stick with my S-15s.

We had this dialog back and forth, you asked for more explanation and I made it as clear as I could that we were talking about products that protect products for 100$. The home entertainment ones didn't offer battery backup and the PC workstations did. I was concerned about protection of equiptment during a power situation where the power goes on and off several times in a short period of time and wanted something that protects for less 100 bucks.

so your solution (S15) costs how much? The audio quality of my entertainment room mutes any high fidelity equipment desicions along with the video quality most video sources. A signal to noise ratio of a billion in both audio and video signals is totally trumped by my room and most video sources. I'm very practical, looking for a 100$ power protection solution that doesn't increase the noise/distortion of my system because it is alread set by the room (audio) and for analog content.

Do I make sense? If you understand what I'm talking about then please show me a home entertainment product for under 100 bucks that is better than the PC workstation solution for under 100 bucks.

Exactly. I would have no problem putting that PC unit on a RP or FP system to protect the lamp but I would not like to have my analog amps running on square waves. So, I understand where AVS Marty is coming from although I would not reach his conclusion. And I'll stick with my S-15s.

Kal, is the S-15 noisy? I have an S-10 and haven't noticed noise, but I need another unit for a second application, and I am debating between getting an S-15, or waiting for the S-20, which is supposed to be much quieter than the S-15.

We had this dialog back and forth, you asked for more explanation and I made it as clear as I could that we were talking about products that protect products for 100$. It is clear that's what you were talking about but I was being more general and noting the problems with running analog audio with square-wave AC.

Kal, is the S-15 noisy? Nope.

It is clear that's what you were talking about but I was being more general and noting the problems with running analog audio with square-wave AC.


Kal,

I have three questions.

1) With respect to output line voltage of the PC designed device, say APC's ES USB 650 w/TEL & COAX, is the output a squarewave all the time, or only when there is a loss of power?

2) are you worried that a unit like APC's ES USB 650 w/TEL & COAX will damage your equiptment or it just increases the audio noise?

3) If it is noise you are worried about, are you confident you could hear this noise on your system or are you just being cautious?

thanks in advance,
avs marty

Kal,

I have three questions.

1) With respect to output line voltage of the PC designed device, say APC's ES USB 650 w/TEL & COAX, is the output a squarewave all the time, or only when there is a loss of power?Probably the latter since it merely passes AC when there is adequate AC.

2) are you worried that a unit like APC's ES USB 650 w/TEL & COAX will damage your equiptment or it just increases the audio noise?The latter as the former is improbable with a well-designed PS.

3) If it is noise you are worried about, are you confident you could hear this noise on your system or are you just being cautious?I have not used that particular unit but I did try a few PC UPS (and filter units) a while back and found them to corrupt the sound quality.

Probably the latter since it merely passes AC when there is adequate AC.

The latter as the former is improbable with a well-designed PS.

I have not used that particular unit but I did try a few PC UPS (and filter units) a while back and found them to corrupt the sound quality.


Kal,

Hearing audio distortion is always a tough one to nail down, I consider my ears to be average on that but I did have some music friends when I was younger who had sensitive ears. So its a personal preference.

Assuming the APC ES USB 650 w/TEL & COAX passes a sinewave line voltage during normal operation and I'm assuming you only hear noise from such devices when they are supplying power during a power loss. For me if there is a power loss, I'll probably be turning off all the audio/video equipment until power gets properly restored, I'm just looking for something to protect equipment that is turning on and off repeatably during time when line power is a problem.

And it seemed the PC intended (marketed) devices work better for this then the home entertainment intended (marketed) device when the price tag is less than 100 bucks.

thanks,
Marty

I

That's a reasonable conclusion as long as one accepts those parameters.

For a couple hundred more, what about on of these?

http://www.shentech.com/pp1500.html

Look good on paper.

for those that might be interested,

Received the Battery Backup/Surge protection unit and hooked up my TV and peripherals to it. All looks well and functional, haven't had a power outage or pulled the plug to see how it works with loss of power. I'll wait for that to naturally happened.

The unit (APC BE-650BB-CN) also comes with surge protection directly on RF cable from cable company too, that works also (basically it doesnt' screw up RF signal).

thought you all might be interested in this. PS audio is giving away free DVD titled "Coal to Coltrane". This DVD presentation is a history of AC power. Its available at PS Audio http://www.psaudio.com/

Nothing like reading a thread spanning 4 years over the course of a day...

Some of the most interesting info came in some mid-way posts by APC and EP reps who said there is a vast difference in automatic voltage regulation (AVR) in IT-type devices (like two oft-recommended "pure sine wave" lines such as the APC Smart UPS and the Opti-UPS) and devices designed specifically for home theater. Those claims were never fleshed out, and those caveats (raised here by APC and EP) seemed to have faded away, as I see the IT-type units being recommended often, again. And, I can see why -- you can pick up that "true sine wave" 1000va Opti-UPS for $199 or less, and powerful, pre-owned APC Smart UPS devices (the APC line with pure sine wave output) are available all day long on Fleabay for under $200 with 1500va and up.

But what about those warnings by the APC rep and the EP rep earlier in this thread that the voltage regulation performance of a UPS designed for PCs does not offer the performance of the type dedicated to a/v applications? Anything to this? Also, how scary is buying a pre-owned (more powerful) UPS (eg. APC Smart UPS 3000VA, et al.)?

I just ordered a balanced power component for my sources and display (sub and amps going straight into the wall's dedicated lines). I'm also installing a whole-house surge protector. The outfit I ordered the balanced power device from suggested I supplement their unit with a ~1200va UPS with voltage regulation and pure sine wave output. Hence this research...

Thanks in advance!

Aaron

Nothing like reading a thread spanning 4 years over the course of a day...

Some of the most interesting info came in some mid-way posts by APC and EP reps who said there is a vast difference in automatic voltage regulation (AVR) in IT-type devices (like two oft-recommended "pure sine wave" lines such as the APC Smart UPS and the Opti-UPS) and devices designed specifically for home theater. Those claims were never fleshed out, and those caveats (raised here by APC and EP) seemed to have faded away, as I see the IT-type units being recommended often, again. And, I can see why -- you can pick up that "true sine wave" 1000va Opti-UPS for $199 or less, and powerful, pre-owned APC Smart UPS devices (the APC line with pure sine wave output) are available all day long on Fleabay for under $200 with 1500va and up.

But what about those warnings by the APC rep and the EP rep earlier in this thread that the voltage regulation performance of a UPS designed for PCs does not offer the performance of the type dedicated to a/v applications? Anything to this? Also, how scary is buying a pre-owned (more powerful) UPS (eg. APC Smart UPS 3000VA, et al.)?

I just ordered a balanced power component for my sources and display (sub and amps going straight into the wall's dedicated lines). I'm also installing a whole-house surge protector. The outfit I ordered the balanced power device from suggested I supplement their unit with a ~1200va UPS with voltage regulation and pure sine wave output. Hence this research...

Thanks in advance!

Aaron

Glad you made your post as I went back and read some much older posts, very interesting.

Actually, some of the dialog was almost like day ja vou except it wasn't the same folks. I was especially struck by a post that cooling fans wouldn't work if they were AC types if the provided voltage too them was a square wave. Well I took an AC fan (house fan) and plugged it in to my APC unit, unplugged power and watched the fan continue to run with no problem. On the other hand I'm still going to read more about using the coax surge protection of the unit for protection of the RF signal. Don't expect it to be a problem, but being curious is always fun.

If I had to buy over again I might have gone for the even cheeper units that I found after buying the $79 dollar unit from APC.

If we loose power while watching tv, I'll be turning off the the equiptment and will be glad that the bulb is being cooled off by the fan.

AVS marty

Still learning, but I'm beginning to wonder if some of the "true online" UPS' (some of the Lieberts, some of the PowerWares, the DS series of Opti-UPS) that offer "dual (or double) conversion" might be the low-cost approach to the power regeneration approach of several of the boutique audio brands (Exact Power, PS Audio)?

Many of the lower-end so-called "true sine wave" UPS', like the APC Smart UPS series and the Opti-UPS PS1000B, don't really do this. In the case of the latter manufacturer's line, it isn't until you step up to their DS series that you get "On-line operation (that) regulates the incoming AC power and continuously offers connected applications with pure, stable sine wave output."

Online double/dual conversion isn't cheap, but they're a dime a dozen on the re-furb market, and as such, pennies compared to, say, a PS Audio PPP. I don't know much about the PPP, which probably does a lot more than power regeneration, but in terms of IT-type UPS gear used for audio purposes, it does seem that online double/dual conversion is the way to go.

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this power conditioner or not but I have a Cyberpower 1030HT. After much research on surge suppressors and power conditioners this one beat all the high priced ones from Monster and the like. It has 6000 Joules of surge suppression. WAY more than those HIGH priced wanna bes where you're just paying for the name. This unit cost me less that 80 dollars and with product registration they guarantee you home theater system up to 500 thousand dollars. Can't beat it if you ask me.

Jay

While the CyberPower products are often a great value, the Joule ratings on many of these kinds of products are hard to compare. If you compare their surge suppression rated for several times others such as the Panamax products, you find that they are nearly identical in the MOV complement in terms of size and configuration. They are likely adding up the capacity of all combinations of suppresion, i.e. H-N, H-G, and N-G. It would be impossible for all combinations to be dumping current simultaneously, so a fairer rating would be the lowest of the combinations.

Like I said, the CP products are a great value n many cases. I use several of them along with Panamax and ESP units and they are fine, but their ratings appear to be overstated. Joule ratings are just not a reliable measure of protection. Other factors are also important, including the clamping levels on each type of line.

Still learning, but I'm beginning to wonder if some of the "true online" UPS' (some of the Lieberts, some of the PowerWares, the DS series of Opti-UPS) that offer "dual (or double) conversion" might be the low-cost approach to the power regeneration approach of several of the boutique audio brands (Exact Power, PS Audio)?

Many of the lower-end so-called "true sine wave" UPS', like the APC Smart UPS series and the Opti-UPS PS1000B, don't really do this. In the case of the latter manufacturer's line, it isn't until you step up to their DS series that you get "On-line operation (that) regulates the incoming AC power and continuously offers connected applications with pure, stable sine wave output."

Online double/dual conversion isn't cheap, but they're a dime a dozen on the re-furb market, and as such, pennies compared to, say, a PS Audio PPP. I don't know much about the PPP, which probably does a lot more than power regeneration, but in terms of IT-type UPS gear used for audio purposes, it does seem that online double/dual conversion is the way to go.

Tripplite makes double online models starting at 750va/600watts or a larger model with 1,000va/800watts as starter units. They get bigger of course. Just costs more money.

Model #: SU750XL
Model #: SU1000XLa

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=3299

From Tripplite:
"The SU750XL on-line, double-conversion UPS protects critical server, networking or telecommunications equipment from blackouts, brownouts, voltage fluctuations and surges. Large-capacity 750VA/600W UPS continuously converts incoming AC to DC, then back to perfect sine wave AC output at 120V AC (+/-2%). Removes harmonic distortion, fast electrical impulses, frequency fluctuations and other hard-to-solve power problems not addressed by other UPS systems. True sine wave output and zero transfer time offer guaranteed compatibility with all equipment types."

You can get the 750va model for under $350.00.

Other Tripplite models such as the Model #: SMART750SLT appear to be similar to the ACP SMART-UPS series in that it is line-interactive.

Under those 'higher end' models you get the modified sinewave outputs, including the J10/J15 APC AV UPS (the cheap version of the S10/S15) plus virtually all the other consumer UPS's they make. Plus, APC confuses their SMART-UPS line by making a SMART-UPS SC model which is not a sinewave ups like the other SMART-UPS models but a modified sinewave. Confusing on purpose no doubt.

.

Tripplite makes double online models starting at 750va/600watts or a larger model with 1,000va/800watts as starter units. They get bigger of course. Just costs more money.

Model #: SU750XL
Model #: SU1000XLa

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=3299

From Tripplite:
"The SU750XL on-line, double-conversion UPS protects critical server, networking or telecommunications equipment from blackouts, brownouts, voltage fluctuations and surges. Large-capacity 750VA/600W UPS continuously converts incoming AC to DC, then back to perfect sine wave AC output at 120V AC (+/-2%). Removes harmonic distortion, fast electrical impulses, frequency fluctuations and other hard-to-solve power problems not addressed by other UPS systems. True sine wave output and zero transfer time offer guaranteed compatibility with all equipment types."

You can get the 750va model for under $350.00.

Other Tripplite models such as the Model #: SMART750SLT appear to be similar to the ACP SMART-UPS series in that it is line-interactive.

Under those 'higher end' models you get the modified sinewave outputs, including the J10/J15 APC AV UPS (the cheap version of the S10/S15) plus virtually all the other consumer UPS's they make. Plus, APC confuses their SMART-UPS line by making a SMART-UPS SC model which is not a sinewave ups like the other SMART-UPS models but a modified sinewave. Confusing on purpose no doubt.

.


If power is lost, won't you be turning off the system anyway . So who needs a sinewave, isn't it more of a marketing gimmick. to shell out more bucks.

avs marty

Online double/dual conversion isn't cheap, but they're a dime a dozen on the re-furb market, and as such, pennies compared to, say, a PS Audio PPP.

Where do you find the "refurb market" for these products? Thanks.

Tripplite makes double online models starting at 750va/600watts or a larger model with 1,000va/800watts as starter units.

After tracking the Online series of Tripplite on E'bay for a week or so, they don't seem to readily available on the cheap (refurbed with new batteries). The double-conversion, online type of UPS most available there seems to be the TrippLite Online series, the Opti-UPS DS (durable series), the PowerWaare 9125s, the MGE Pulsar OL ("O"n"L"ine), the Liebert GXT2, and the PowerCom Ultimate. For example, there's a PowerWare 9125 listed right now with a 1500va capacity with new batteries, for a buy-it-now of $185. I'd say anyone shopping for an online, dual-conversion UPS should make "under $200" their goal -- patience gets the worm. I just snapped up a double-conversion Best Power Axxium 1000va for $145. They were bought out by PowerWare -- the 1000va that I bought is a "new" unit that's 7 years old -- the company selling them apparently bought a bunch of them (it retailed for ~$1100 originally), and put new batteries in them, as well.

Based on my non-technophile understanding, anything less than "online dual/double conversion" is just a standby emergency power unit (eg. APC Smart UPS or Opti-UPS PS1000B). The double-conversion type regenerates power full time, like a PS Audio PPP or an Exact Power EP 15A.

Where do you find the "refurb market" for these products? Thanks.

There's dozens of sites offering re-furbed UPS', but they seem to want a pretty penny for the online, double-conversion distinction. I had more luck finding them on E'bay -- I'm not really up on these, but my one qualifier to taking an interest in one is whether or not it was advertised with new batteries, since the batteries are the most (way) expensive part of these things. See my post above for models to run searches on.

Most of these units output a simulated sinewave (stepped) when power is lost, if the load becomes very large, then the stepped sinewave will have more harmonics approching a square wave which isn't the perfect input to the transformer of the units being protected.

Probably won't want to run all the time on a poorly simulated sinewave, but for the short time it take to power of the TV and peripherals and the subsiquent extra time needed to cool the bulb you will not have to worry about damaging your equiptment. These loads will be small if you buy the proper size system.


avs marty

Most of these units output a simulated sinewave (stepped) when power is lost

You mean the standby units, such as APC's Smart Ups model, etc. The dual-conversion type isn't stepped/simulated.

"UPS designs" (overview)

"The general categories of modern UPS systems are on-line or off-line, the latter often referred to as standby. An on-line UPS always powers the load from its own internal energy supply, which is in turn continuously charged by the input power. In a standby ("off-line") system the load is powered directly by the input power and the backup power circuitry is only invoked when the utility power fails. Most UPS below 1 kVA are of the standby variety which are cheaper, though inferior to on-line systems which have no delay between a power failure and backup power being supplied.

"A true 'uninterruptible' system is a double-conversion system. In a double-conversion system alternating current (AC) comes from the power grid, goes to the battery (direct current or DC), then is converted back to AC power.

"Most systems sold for the general market, however, are of the "standby" type where the output power only draws from the battery if the AC power fails or weakens."



Some of the oft-recommended units recommended because they "have" sine wave output, when in fact, it's really a "stepped" design as you outlined, are actually termed "line interactive."



"Line-interactive" (overview)

"Line interactive UPS units are designed so the power input, a transformer with rectification circuitry, is connected directly to circuitry to charge the battery and to the inverter that is always connected to the output or load of the UPS. The transformer required is usually significantly larger than the transformer used in standby systems, adding weight and bulk to the UPS, because the load on the UPS is basically connected directly to the input and therefore the transformer must be large enough to provide sufficient real power to accommodate the load, with some extra capacity for overloads and power losses in the charging and inverter systems. When line power is present, the charging circuitry, which basically consists of a transformer and rectifiers or diodes to change the alternating current (AC) to direct current (DC), connects to the inverter which converts the DC current back to AC current and connects to the output or load. When utility power fails, the input to the inverter instantly changes from the input transformer and circuitry to the battery and provides power to the load. This design provides better filtering than a standby unit because the input transformer and circuitry is always connected to the inverter that is always connected to the load.

"Line interactive units typically will incorporate an automatic voltage regulator. AVR allows the UPS to effectively step-up or step-down the incoming line voltage without switching to battery power. This allows the UPS to correct most long term over-voltages or under-voltages without draining the batteries. Another advantage is that it reduces the number of transfers to battery which extends the lifetime of the batteries.

"Line-interactive UPS units are the most common design for units in the 0.5 kVA to 5 kVA range. They are typically used in small server environments."



"Dual conversion online" (overview)

"Dual conversion uninterruptible power supplies operate by converting incoming utility AC power to DC and then convert the DC back to AC power connected to the load. This is also called "double conversion" or "dual conversion." The batteries are directly connected to the DC level, which provides an excellent filter for removing line noise. Effectively, this design isolates the load from the incoming power and regenerates the sine wave. This yields many benefits. First, this design will protect against all 9 of the common power problems. It allows the UPS to use almost any incoming power, including generators. Second, this design allows the UPS to change incoming voltages and even frequencies easily. Third, because the load is always powered by the inverter, when power fails, there is no transfer time while the UPS switches from line power to battery power. While for most computer applications the switching time is not a problem, some industrial equipment can be harmed (air conditioner compressors for example). Fourth benefit is that during a mains failure, the operating condition of the inverter doesn't have to change. All other topologies require a change of current flows when a mains failure occurs. This can reveal hidden internal problems on the exact moment the UPS is most needed. Since a dual conversion UPS is always in full operation, problems will not stay hidden and can be resolved before mains failure occurs. The bypass circuitry will prevent power loss in the mean while."

Anyone have any hands on experience with the APC J10 power conditioner w/ battery back-up? Opinions and best places to buy. We had 4 momentary power outages last night and that can't be good on my new 70"XBR2 lamp! :mad:
Thanks

There's a J10 on E'bay right now -- I was tracking it concurrent to learning more about these things. Note, however, I'm fairly certain one of the primary differences between the J10 and the far higher end S10 is the very thing we've been discussing, online dual-conversion, though perhaps our applications might be different. I'm going to use a UPS to always provide my balanced power device a steady, clean voltage. Your application is literally for when the lights go out. That said, I'd keep an eye on making sure there's no time delay.

On the other hand, if you want your cake and eat it, too, you could snap up that PowerWare 9125 that has a $189 Buy-It-Now -- that will give you the power regeneration the S-10 provides, as well as power when the lights go out.

EDIT: Oops, someone snapped that up. However, looks as though the seller I bought my Axxium from (it's new, with new batteries) just listed another one, item number 180134041970, for $145.

[QUOTE=kitchener]You mean the standby units, such as APC's Smart Ups model, etc. The dual-conversion type isn't stepped/simulated.

I wasn't condsidering the dual conversion in my post because I didn't think you could get them for under 100$ as I stated in my post (title).


on the other hand, thanks for your informative post, enjoyed reading it and learn from it.

avs marty

Well, I'm about as neophyte as neophyte gets with this, but you're bound to learn something if you're willing to use the Search function and begin digging. You made a great remark earlier that always reveals itself when looking into something -- it's all like deja vu, the same questions and dialog spanning years of discussion. Takes patience, though -- reminds me of that old line from John Ford's "Man Who Shot Liberty Valence": when fact becomes legend, print the legend. When something is said enough, it develops a life of its own, true or not. Throughout this thread spanning 4 years, the budget UPS' that claim "true sine wave output," like the APC Smart Ups and the Opti-Plus PS1000B have been recommended over and over for this feature, yet as you have already pointed out, they are really just standby emergency power units and the claimed "true sine wave" is, as you said, stepped. However, there have been several instances over the years where someone will chime in with the differences, but as time goes by, it all starts over again, lol.

Well, anyway...

This is an interesting thread, but I'm still confused. I just picked up a Furman Elite-15 PF. Now I'm having potential buyer's remorse. Would it have been better to pick up a UPS like the H15/J15/S15?

This is an interesting thread, but I'm still confused. I just picked up a Furman Elite-15 PF. Now I'm having potential buyer's remorse. Would it have been better to pick up a UPS like the H15/J15/S15?

I think it depends on your electric provider, mine is terrible as I loose power about 20-25 time a year and sometimes when it happens it goes on and off several times in a very short time period. After talking with the electric provider and reading stuff in the local news I have concluded that they have neglected manicuring trees in locality near me which causes this problem. My RP DLP tv uses a bulb that in the past a similar made model has had reliability issues.

If your electric provider is good, then I wouldn't worry about it. If you are worried about it then buy a UPS for less than 50$ which you can use just to protect the TV, possibly connecting this between TV and the surge unit you just purchased.

This is an interesting thread, but I'm still confused. I just picked up a Furman Elite-15 PF. Now I'm having potential buyer's remorse. Would it have been better to pick up a UPS like the H15/J15/S15?

I was really on the fence about getting one of those, myself. I especially like the rack lights. You know, you'll find a lot of divergent opinions, and maybe the best thing to do is use the search function and track these same questions. Since you've already bought the Furman, best bet is to hook it up, give some critical listening with and without, and see what you think.

I think it's often lost among the old-school, purist types that the first motivation into looking into power-related devices (at least for me) is connectivity issues. Unless you're having an electrician put 10 outlets into your living room or family room wall, where do you hook up all the gear one tends to use with a modern a/v system? Then, once you've made the leap into getting some kind of power device, your first priority is to find something that does no harm (eg. not limiting your current). As I understand it, the three basic functions of a complete power conditioner include surge suppression, line filtration, and voltage regulation. After that, it becomes tempting (an area really helped by research) to find something that offers your system benefits (and this is the most hotly debated topic in the whole equation). In my neophyte, lay view, there are two areas that seem to get the broadest consistent endorsements: power regeneration (typified by products like the PS Audio Premier Power Plant, the Exact Power EP 15 and the APC S15 you mentioned) and balanced power (typified by products from Equitech and Balanced Power Technologies, or BPT). Note, these two areas do two different things completely, and often they are married to one another -- Exact Power takes this approach with their sister-product to the EP 15, the SP 15 -- in essence, the EP 15 puts out perfect 120V, 60Hz sine wave AC power, and the SP 15 turns that into balanced power.

When you experiment with the Furman, don't just try it with it hooked up and unhooked up. Try also to connect just your front-end type stuff to it (your dvd player, sat/cable box, display), with your amp or receiver going straight into the wall. You need a very powerful power device (balanced or regenerative) to hook amps and subs to it. You probably know this already, but make sure you use the same material in your listening tests (with and without). Note, the one downside of that Furman is you don't get voltage regulation. If you bought it locally, I bet you'd have no problem exchanging it (after you've tried it!) for their voltage regulation component (1215 or something). Try out both, for starters, and see what you get.

If you do have the advantage of a Furman store locally, and your budget is flexible if the results justify the outlay, you can explore all facets of this discussion by getting them to also let you try the Furman IT series, which is a balanced power component that competes directly with Equitech. My own approach is going to be to try to emulate the Exact Power E 15 and S 15 combo and save a grand in the process. I've already kind of outlined what I'm trying-- I'm having somewhat of a D.I.Y.-type balanced power component built for my sources and display ($700), I bought a dual-conversion online ups for power regeneration ($145), and I'm having a whole house surge protector installed (~$100) when I have dedicated circuits installed. I'm re-finishing my family room, about three weeks from completion. All the gear is bought -- I am DYING to hook it all up and see how I did (nearly a complete re-build).

If you can pull off a with and without audition of those three Furman components (the unit you bought, their voltage regulating power conditioner, and their Reference IT series), I'd love to hear the results.

Aaron

I have a Monster HTS-2600 power conditioner, I got a GREAT deal on it. After some bad weather causing momentary losses of power (literally 5-20 seconds) my STB takes forever to reboot. I want to add a UPS for my STB, LCD projection TV and possibly my 360. What is the best configuration with the HTS-2600? I need to stay under $100 right now.

Would it be best to plug the UPS into the HTS-2600 or directly into the wall?

Hi,

I've been reading this thread, however, I am only up to page 8. I am expecting (on Wednesday), a new hdtv. Prior to this, the most I have dealt with electronics is programming a vcr, so don't laugh. From what I have read, I am concerned about power going out before the fan(s) have completed their cooldown routine.

I need a UPS- which, I think, is a surge protector plus blackout protector. When I go on the APC or belkin sites, it seems that most UPS equipment is for computers. For home theater, they just seem to highlight surge protectors.

Am I missing something? Are we supposed to use the ones for computers (provided we add up the power requirements of our equipment)?

TIA for any help!

Hi,

I've been reading this thread, however, I am only up to page 8. I am expecting (on Wednesday), a new hdtv. Prior to this, the most I have dealt with electronics is programming a vcr, so don't laugh. From what I have read, I am concerned about power going out before the fan(s) have completed their cooldown routine.

I need a UPS- which, I think, is a surge protector plus blackout protector. When I go on the APC or belkin sites, it seems that most UPS equipment is for computers. For home theater, they just seem to highlight surge protectors.

Am I missing something? Are we supposed to use the ones for computers (provided we add up the power requirements of our equipment)?

TIA for any help!

I have APC BE 650BB, only my Toshiba DLP set is running on the battery back section of this unit. The rest of devices (DVD, Cable, WII ect) run on the surge protection section only. I want to protect when power goes so I can turn off the set and still know the fan will cool the bulb for 5-10 minutes.

I'm of the opinion that if you plan to shut down when power goes and you don't load the UPS section of the unit you will be OK. So far I'm fine and comfortable with it.

If you got a DLP set with Hg Bulb, get a warranty on set and one on the bulb. both together will cost about 200 bucks.

regards,
AVS marty

I need a UPS- which, I think, is a surge protector plus blackout protector. When I go on the APC or belkin sites, it seems that most UPS equipment is for computers. For home theater, they just seem to highlight surge protectors.

Am I missing something? Are we supposed to use the ones for computers (provided we add up the power requirements of our equipment)?

TIA for any help!Mebbe.
http://www.apcc.com/products/category.cfm?id=15
http://www.pureav.com/power/

I need a UPS- which, I think, is a surge protector plus blackout protector. When I go on the APC or belkin sites, it seems that most UPS equipment is for computers. For home theater, they just seem to highlight surge protectors.

Am I missing something? Are we supposed to use the ones for computers (provided we add up the power requirements of our equipment)?


Came across this thread researching something else -- seems to speak directly to your question... (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=792011)

Hello,

I have a Toshiba 65HM167 and would like to get a UPS for it. I do have this (http://www.surgemax.net/productpage.php?key=172448) sitting next to me - was gonna throw it on my 2nd PC but just want to know if it's SAFE to use that UPS with the TV. TV uses 205watts max power.

Hello,

I have a Toshiba 65HM167 and would like to get a UPS for it. I do have this (http://www.surgemax.net/productpage.php?key=172448) sitting next to me - was gonna throw it on my 2nd PC but just want to know if it's SAFE to use that UPS with the TV. TV uses 205watts max power.

I've learned a little about this subject from this tread. Basically you have the audio video perfectionsists who spend way above average on their equiptment. They will suggest buying the perfect UPS with pure sine wave output ect ect ect. Its not necessary if you just are looking to protect your bulb when power is lost to give you time to turn it off.

The APC style UPS unit creates a simulated sinewave (I don't know how many bits of resolution, but I would guess between 8-16). This is ample resolution. By not having a pure sinewave the front end transformer in you equiptment (TV) will filter out unusable harmonics above 60 herts. the amplitude of these harmonics I'm guessing is 10 to 1000 times less than the amplitude of 60 hertzs. Todays and yesterdays transformers easily can handle this evironment, rarely do they malfunction and when they do its not because of these harmonics.

I have a BE650BB unit which will give you almost 17 minutes of backup time at 200 watts, plenty of time to turn off the set and keep the fan running to cool the bulb. http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE650BB

my tv costed me 1700 plus 200 for bulb and warranty. Don't get carried away with spending big bucks on a UPS. Sure they look nice sitting their next to your other equiptment and for most it will 99.9999 percent of the time be doing nothing.

regards,
avs marty

regards,
avs marty


Thanks, reason why I am asking is because I saw a post saying shouldnt use a computer type UPS for your TV - so that made me ask. I would think any electronics would be fine on UPS since......computers are electronics! He must be talking about a real expensive TV. I will be reading this thread soon... Just need to find time now.

I was told that a lamp fan on the Mitz 733 only stays on for 5 -10 seconds after U turn off the TV. So for the few times in the life cycle of the TV that U have a power outage, without turning the TV before the outage during a storm, do U reallly need a APC?

Thanks,

Ron

I was told that a lamp fan on the Mitz 733 only stays on for 5 -10 seconds after U turn off the TV. So for the few times in the life cycle of the TV that U have a power outage, without turning the TV before the outage during a storm, do U reallly need a APC?

Thanks,

Ron


Well another good point that if you do get one spend less than 100 dollars. And if you then need service for what ever reason on the TV make sure the service guy sees your protecting the TV, it can only help with respect to warranty coverage.

Mebbe.
http://www.apcc.com/products/category.cfm?id=15
http://www.pureav.com/power/

thanks for the links

I was told that a lamp fan on the Mitz 733 only stays on for 5 -10 seconds after U turn off the TV. So for the few times in the life cycle of the TV that U have a power outage, without turning the TV before the outage during a storm, do U reallly need a APC?

Thanks,

Ron

No, not if your outages are infrequent.

Hah! Usually when I come home, I would turn TV on to watch TV. But not last night because I wanted to throw the UPS on it.. I left the TV off because I didn't want to wear the bulb even more and would have to let it cool off. So about an hour after being home, I unplugged the TV and go about to find a cord I was missing.. 15 mins later, power went out for 4 hours. Luckily I didn't have the TV on! Needless to say, after power went back up, I immediately hooked up the UPS to TV.

i've bought belkin power console pf30 (AP20800-10) for connecting samsung lcdtv and ps3 and future audio system... when plugged in only the bottom light is on (PureFilter)... I've got nothing plugged into switched high current receptacle yet so that remains off for now (left power button on off)... the 2 middle leds, per the manual, should be lit if my outlets are truly grounded and not reversed....

i've also purchased the belkin pf30 power conditioner (AP11000-10) for the bedroom for protecting the laptop, dell lcd 20inch screen, hdtv tuner, and logitech z5500 sound system... this power conditioner, one step below the above mentioned power console, have a ground fault led indicator to indicate ungrounded outlets but it does not light up which is contradictory to what the powerconsole indicates in the living room... I still get popping noise from speakers when shutting off master bathroom exhaust fan...

Does this mean i have to call an electrician to check out the wiring? I live in apartment complex so i don't know if i could initiate such a thing. i haven't tried the power console in same outlet in the bedroom yet so will do that tonight... could it be possible i have a defective unit and have to return it?? please help this newbie...

FenixP3D , I would... They have a plug in to put in the outlet. It will show quick if the voltage is reversed or not grounded correctly. I just got a Cyberpower with LCD to give status of everything. I have an old standby 35 inch TV that I have left plugged in. I noticed it has been drawing 25 Watts power in off stand by... I will now unplug till I need to turn it on because I don't need the clock running or set .

FenixP3D , I would... They have a plug in to put in the outlet. It will show quick if the voltage is reversed or not grounded correctly. I just got a Cyberpower with LCD to give status of everything. I have an old standby 35 inch TV that I have left plugged in. I noticed it has been drawing 25 Watts power in off stand by... I will now unplug till I need to turn it on because I don't need the clock running or set .

G.B.

can i get this at a local radio shack??

had a talk with electrical engineer coworker and he has such a device.. will try it tonight.... just saved some $$$...

I think they would ... Anyplace for electrical products...

Anyone have anything bad to say about the

Best Power Axxium 1000U Rackmount UPS?

Thanks to a member on this forum, I am considering purchasing this little buddy for my new rptv and dvr. I only intend to use it for as long as it takes to turn the tv off and let the fan cool the set, should the power go out while I am watching. Power went out the other night (thankfully, tv was off) for no good reason. It was clear, no thunderstorms - maybe someone hit a pole. Had to redo my picture settings, but nbd.

Mine came as advertised: a brand new, $1,100 dual-conversion online UPS for $145, and with a brand new battery (since they've sat in a warehouse for 7 years). I myself bought mine simply for the benefit of a full-time power regenerator with pure sine wave output (which is what the high-end dual conversion UPS' do) -- keeping my DVR up and running after a power loss is the fringe benefit for me. Either way, it's way above your garden-variety CompUSA UPS, and at the price, it's like stealing.

Unfortunately, I can't give you much of a performance testimonial, since my home theater is waiting for me to finish completing the room it's going in. I did hook it up to the tv and dvr sitting on the bare floor, lol. They're both dazzled.