OK, just looking for people's $0.02 to the $1,000,000 question. Concerning Surge Suppressors. In ya'alls opinion, are there any REAL advantages to Surge Suppressors like Monster and Panamax compared to the $30-$40 ones you can buy at Wal-Mart or K-Mart?????

Monster Power, and other major players speak of CLEAN POWER 1-5 and similar abilities. I've read what their difference in Clean Power Levels are, BUT do these really do anything noticable or is the power in the U.S.A. good enough that there is no benefit?????

IF, there IS an advantage to Monster and Panamax compared to the Normal Surge Suppressors, which one is recommended??? Especially within their own line of suppressors. Example, Monster HTS1000 compared to Monster Power Bar 1100. Except for the Power bar handling HIGHER Joules, the only difference seems to be the $50 price. Same with the HTS2500 compared to the Power Bar 2100 or the HTS2000. $50 difference between the HTS2000 and the Power Bar 2100, another $50 difference between that and the 2500. Other than a few more joules, what seems to be the differences?????

Is most of what there is JUST HYPE????? Am I better off buying the MOST EXPENSIVE SURGE SUPPRESSOR AT WAL-MART??? And spending what I save, on beer and dvd's????? ALL OPINIONS ARE WELCOMED... Thx... Mike...

Do searches on "exactpower" (no space) and "power conditioning" for more information than you care to have.

I've searched "power Conditioning" and other similar phrases. I've come up with all the different companies. 1st off, I can't take a Companie's opinion of the "good, bad, and the ugly". They are obviously biased. 2nd, I'm not really looking for any particular company over another. UNLESS THEY REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

There's no question that surge protection is important. I, nor anyone else disputes that. My question was more generic. 1st part, DOES THE BIG DOLLAR PROTECTION OFFERED BY MONSTER, PANAMAX, EXACTPOWER, ETC... DIFFER FROM THE $30-$40 PROTECTION OFFERED BY A SURGE SUPPRESSOR OFFERED AT WAL-MART?????

2ND Part, IF THE HIGH COST COMPANIES LIKE MONSTER, PANAMAX, EXACTPOWER DO..... MAKE A DIFFERENCE COMPARED TO THE GENERIC SURGE SUPPRESSORS, WHAT IS THE BASIC DIFFERENCE WITHIN THEIR OWN MODELS I SHOULD BE LOOKING AT???? They offer so many models each... All opinions welcomed....

Thx... Mike...

Unless I am reading it wrong, I think FL is suggesting you search the AVS forum for those phrases. There you will hear the valuable opinions of folks here, which are hardly those of the companies (or not soley those).

You also need to get a grip on the terms you are using. Line conditioning and surge suppression are two very different things.

The first provides power within a range of close tolerances. The second protects you from the destructive effects of massive power spikes which could fry your equipment. I wouldn't rely on WalMart for either one.

A surge suppressor guards against overvoltage. A power line conditioner guards against both overvoltage and under voltage.

I'm really sorry if I seem to be making this question difficult. That's not my intention. I will try once more to explain my question. I know what a Surge Suppressor is and does. I know what a power line conditioner is and what it does. I have surfed the forums and the net for information. Most answers are either manufacturer biased, uninformed opinions. Thus, the reason I'm asking the forum.

My question simply is,,,, Do the high priced surge suppressors like Monster HTS1000 or the Panamax 4300 provide any better protection of suppressing surges compared to a $30 surge suppressor from wal-mart??? Also, some like the Monster claim that they clean the power up. Again is all this valid or is it a marketing hype???

IF they DO provide a noticable improvement and difference, then WHAT should I be looking for in one of these high priced Surge Suppressors??? Thx... Mike...

Originally posted by Christcorp
My question simply is,,,, Do the high priced surge suppressors like Monster HTS1000 or the Panamax 4300 provide any better protection of suppressing surges compared to a $30 surge suppressor from wal-mart??? Also, some like the Monster claim that they clean the power up. Again is all this valid or is it a marketing hype???

IF they DO provide a noticeable improvement and difference, then WHAT should I be looking for in one of these high priced Surge Suppressors??? Thx... Mike...

The choices are not Monster or WalMart. A $30 surge suppressor from any retailer is going to provide a small amount of protection from voltage spikes. I do more than that to protect my PC.

You might find more interest in your questions in the three front projector forums. I'm sure that they have had a lot of discussion (debate) about the effects of power quality on performance of video and sound equipment.

You might also want to take into consideration the vast range of power quality issues that come up in different areas of the country -- brown outs, power failures followed by voltage spikes, voltage fluctuation, the effects of electric motors, lightning, and on and on and on.

YMMV, but I've put all my PCs and TVs (Tosh RPTV and normal CRTs) on APC UPSs. I once lived in a part of the country where power was crummy, as mentioned above, and you'd get brownouts, spikes, etc. (All my good stereo amp equipment is also on the one the RPTV is on.) I once lost several tube (CRT) sets during a lightning storm, and decided that the insurance of the UPSs was worth it to protect them.

A good UPS will stop surges, correct brownouts (for as long as the battery can boose the power!), and have a guarantee for replacing anything damaged by lightning or other over-voltage problems.

No 'power strip' surge protector can 'condition' power beyond clamping the spikes down (and some/most are blown after they do it once!).

People have UPS preferences as to brand, but I've used APC (www.apcc.com) for many years (with PCs on 24/7, for example) and have never had a PC or TV failure, even through lightning storms when the power in the house fluctuated, flashed, and came back. Still watching TV in the dark and had time to turn the PCs and the TV off 'nicely'! :)

If you're looking at a muli-thousand $ TV, $100-$300 for a good UPS is as much a good insurance policy as an extended warranty (but let's not open the warranty can of worms!).

(And, of course, I have no connection to APC except as a happy customer!)

-Lee

Originally posted by leesweet
YMMV, but I've put all my PCs and TVs (Tosh RPTV and normal CRTs) on APC UPSs. -Lee

I have the same setup. Here in California, thanks to Enron and their friends, we have the possibility of brown outs and rolling outages during peak use periods. My UPS cost about $170 and it also provides an opportunity for a bulb type RPTV to be turned off normally during a power outage.

If you don't want to venture into the intimidating world of line conditioning and its voodoo, but want good quality surge protection, you might look into the brickwall units. They supposedly last darn near forever (10 year warranty!) because they are made of components that don't wear over time like cheap surge suppressors. I bought one (haven't used it yet), and it seems very well built. You can get an 8 outlet version for about $200, a little less than retail from sellcom.com. I have no affiliation with brickwall or sellcom, except as a customer, just making a suggestion.

Cheers,
RDaneel

Get a TrippLite. Top rated by
Consumer Reports.

http://www.tripplite.com/

Originally posted by tammes
Get a TrippLite. Top rated by
Consumer Reports.

http://www.tripplite.com/

Top rated by consumer reports is usually a reason not to buy.


Consumer reports collectively could not be any stupider if someone drilled large holes in all their heads.

We have several at the computer center
(a university) that I work at...
Never a problem...
Have one at home with (almost)
everything hooked into it...

A search in Home Theater General and Tweaks DIY (normal search) for the term "power" in TITLES only, with no date limit on when posted, brings up a lot of threads in this area. -- John

Oscilloscope Traces (http://brickwall.com/oscope.htm)

More Traces (http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/versus.html)

On the one hand, I've heard people complain about how things are built to fail. The other hand contains those who complain about how many brownouts and power outages they have. The two have to be related, especially since the people who complain about build quality invariably are the ones that buy cheap crap. You have a dishwasher, clothes dryer, fridge, A/C, etc. These all send cute little spikes through your gear all day, if not protected all day. You filter water because it tastes like shizz otherwise. Power is very similar. Buy a noise sniffer and plug it into your wall. Then, plug the sniffer into a Monster power center; anything over stage 1 will eliminate the noise to the point of being undetectable. Other digital components will also interfere with each other, furthering noise issues. Stage 3 and higher centers also eliminate those. My advice is to look at the rack units, as opposed to the power bars that are geared to the HTIB and 27" Panasonic user.

you can e-mail monster power and ask them all the questions you want about their different products, your set up, and their reccomendations. you may learn something, or not, but doesn't hurt to ask. i'm buying hts5100 just for peace of mind. aloha keith

Home Theatre PowerCenter™ HT 800 with Clean Power™ Stage 1 v2.0

This is $79.95 and can be viewed at monstercable.com.....or better....click on the link that McFusick sent in the other thread entitled, "Power Supply for Hitachi 57XWX".
I'm figuring the best way to know whether it will make a difference is to try it, but only buy it if it can be returned.
I noticed in the room where my TV is, when I plug in my laptop the screen is dimmer than it was on the battery....maybe that's a sign that my power isn't good? I'll post if I buy this and find out anything. Good luck.

Monster's markup is huge. As with any high markup item, the place to go to buy is ebay, where people sell Monster stuff closer to wholesale... just FYI.

Once you decide to spend more than $100, the BrickWall really starts to make sense... I love mine.

Cheers,
RDaneel

I also use a brickwall unit as my surge supressor. Got it over year ago because of the rolling black outs here in Cali., and haven't seen any problems with surges on my equipment. I also use the brickwall unit in front of an isolation transformer (bpt-2 ultra from www.b-p-t.com), which provides balanced power to my equipment.

Brickwall was a special guest here at the special guest forum. You might want to do a search there to get more info.

I figure if you're spending a good amount of hard-earned money on your system, spending just under $200 for a good surge supressor is worth while and shouldn't put that much of a dent in your pocket.

Honestly, you are probably better off getting "Whole House" surge protection that protects ALL your electronics and appliances by providing protection at the service entrance. A UPS definitely makes sense for most RPTVs though.

There are only two technologies widely available for surge/spike protection. Once you understand the differences between them, the decision about which technology to buy is trivially easy.

Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV) surge suppressors
MOV's are used in products sold by Monster, APC, Walmart, Radio Shack and nearly every other surge suppressor and UPS on the market. MOV's have three features you need to know about:

1. They all have a finite clamping speed, some of the surge gets through before the rest is shunted to ground. Your "protected" equipment takes a constant series of mini-spikes. Nothing you'll notice, nothing to invoke the $5MM equipment replacement warranty, but not good for delicate circuits either.

2. MOV's work by shunting excess voltage to ground, which contaminates the ground of all circuits that share the same ground. Electrical grunge and screwed up voltage for the whole system.

3. MOV's are all designed to fail. They are a consumable. Every spike they shunt, whether large or small, degrades them. That's what "joules ratings" are for, they indicate how many joules the MOV can shunt before failing.

Once an MOV fails, and they all will, they provide no more protection. Zero. If your unit doesn't have some kind of warning indicator (most don't, unfortunately) you'll find out when the next spike comes through and fries your equipment.

UPDATE: a few lucky users will find out immediately when their MOV takes its final hit, since they've been known to ignite. That's right, a fire in your HT rack! To be honest, this is fairly rare... feel better?

Not interested in MOV-based "protection"? Keep reading.

Series Mode (SM) surge suppressors
These were originally designed for the Dept. of Defense, which wasn't happy with the limitations of MOV-based protectors. They are far more reliable and robust than MOV's:

1. SM suppressors have virtually instantaneous reaction speed, nothing gets through above the threshold.

2. Excess voltage is never shunted to ground where it can contaminate the system. When a spike comes in the SM device just opens the circuit. No circuit, no surge.

3. A SM suppressor will probably not wear out in your lifetime. They are not designed-to-fail consumables. SM surge suppressors have no joules ratings because, realistically speaking, they have no capacity limits. There is no practical way to measure the total joules these devices can handle. It would be like trying to measure the amount of water you can pour into a bottomless cup.

For more details about SM surge suppressors:
http://www.digitaltechonline.com/surgeprotect.asp

AFAIK, they are available from just four commercial sources. Compared with the value of your equipment they're not very expensive. I have one on the dedicated circuit that runs my entire HT setup. Cost me about $250 plus an electrician to wire it in. If you prefer a unit that you can just plug into the wall, or even a whole-house unit, they make those too.

Sources for SM surge suppressors:
ZeroSurge (http://www.zerosurge.com) (the inventor of the technology)
BrickWall (http://www.brickwall.com) (good value and a sponsor of this forum)
Surgex (http://www.surgex.com) (wall-based units like mine)
Adcom (http://www.adcom.com) (audio components with SM protection)

NOTE: your coax lines (cable/sat/antenna) are also pathways for electrical surges. No matter how well-protected your AC lines are, a nearby lightning strike could reach any equipment connected, directly or indirectly, to these other paths. The Adcom units linked above already include coax protection of a kind similar to the units described below. If you chose a ZeroSurge, Brickwall or Surgex you should get one of the following...

AVSForum member jkhome found a $5 coax surge suppressor. Like an MOV, this device apparently takes a limited number of hits before dying but, here's the key, when it does reach its limit it stops passing signal. This is the opposite of what MOV's do, and is much safer for your equipment. Product details are at:

Surgender coax surge suppressor (http://www.newtechindustries.com/newtech/access/se1k.htm)

Video321 adds that, "Radio Shack has an add-on coax surge protector for $10. The model # is 15-1110. The surge life is 5x that of the Surgender and also lists a frequency range of 5 to 2050MHz."

Either of these seems like a good investment if you choose a SM line protector other than an Adcom.

Disclaimer: I don't have trouble changing light bulbs, but I am not an electrician or electrically qualified in any way. The above is based on a lot of careful research when looking for my own surge protection devices.

Doug - that link doesn't seem to work. Do you have another? I'm interested in the other suppliers, and how they compare price-wise to BrickWall.

Thanks,
RD

Thanks to this thread I just placed my order for a brickwall. :)
My former employer had two fires in a short window of time
before they traced the problem back to MOV failure.
But until today I had no idea there was a "better way".
I wasn't even in the market for surge protection, but after
reading the info at the above links I was sold on the product.
And I'm even more interested in the conditioning features
than I am in it surge suppression capabilities.

If I catch any flack for the expenditure I'll just tell the gf
to talk to you, Doug. OK?

posted by zvogt
My former employer had two fires in a short window of time
before they traced the problem back to MOV failure. Wow! And you needed my advice to avoid MOV's? I must really be gettin' up there. ;)

If you're plugging power amps into the Brickwall make sure you get one that handles plenty of amperage. I'd forgotten that Brickwall included some line conditioning. Let us know what that does for you. The AC in CT is so unreliable that I needed more than just filtering. Since I wanted a surge protector wired into the circuit near the panel I bought a Surgex, which just does protection. I did my conditioning with a seperate unit.

Just tell your gf that your nutty East coast advisor spent 7x the cost of his Surgex on his AC power conditioner, and he loves it! Should calm her right down.

I was reading a review of some audio equipment last week, don't remember just what or where. The reviewer unplugged a $5K power amp from his Brickwall in order to have an outlet for the component under review, and plugged the amp straight into the wall.

You know what happened two days later. Thunderstorm passes through while he's away. Everything on the Brickwall is unfazed. $5K power amp is now 80 lbs. of slag going back to the factory for a mucho expensive rebuild. True story.

"Let us know what that does for you."

I suspect it won't really DO anything.
I'm not a "golden ear", and my viewing/listening
environment isn't particularly ideal.
I don't expect to experience anything different
in terms of system performance.

The only thing I've really purchased was
peace of mind... and who knows, I may have
been able to find that with some magic beans
if your salesmanship was good enough. :P

Originally posted by zvogt
Thanks to this thread I just placed my order for a brickwall. :)
My former employer had two fires in a short window of time
before they traced the problem back to MOV failure.
But until today I had no idea there was a "better way".
I wasn't even in the market for surge protection, but after
reading the info at the above links I was sold on the product.
And I'm even more interested in the conditioning features
than I am in it surge suppression capabilities.

If I catch any flack for the expenditure I'll just tell the gf
to talk to you, Doug. OK?

Damn this thread. Zvogt, which one did you get?

Hmm, guess I'm in the wrong line of work...
I'm a Purchasing Manager! Salesmen? Hack! Spit!

Magic beans sound interesting though. Where can I get some?

I ordered the PW8R15AUD.
(And I didn't buy it directly from the manufacturer, btw.
Poke around, there are other sources.)

I just ordered a MonsterPower 5100 a few minutes ago and happended to run across this thread. Is the Monster 5100 a MOV then and would I be much better off getting one of those BrickWall units? Thanks.

Dave


edit: just canceled my order after reading some of the posts on MOVs. I am now thinking about the ACE-615 from Adcom. Should this also provide the same benefits of video/audio 'filtering' and the other things that Monster promises? Thanks.

First of all, when you ask this and I answer there is a difference in providing surge protection on power bars, and say with Monster actually alos providing performance enhancement which you can hear on audio and see on TV. I used a Monster 5100 along with a Richard Gray power company device, but the Ricahrd gray helps primarily video. I started with a Monster 1000 power strip and went from that to the 5100 and my picture got more vivid, better blacks and lower video noise, and the sound got a little tighter and more focused. I went with Monster because for what it does it isn't that expensive, but the main reason was that Monster has a life time warranty, and my 1000 went out after 5 years and I could either get another or get full retail toward the upgrade.

If your goal is just protection alone then you can get a good power strip and I am confident you will be fine, but if some good filtration and digital to analog separation by output then you use one of these. I have everything but my amps plugged into the Monster and then my monster into the Richard Gray, except the TV which is plugged straight into the Richard Gray. My amps are plugged into the wall. Many people plug amps into these things, and Monster says you should, but I can hear the amps suppression and don't like it, so that is why I don't. I do use a 250 into 8 ohms by 3 on the front, and that is allot more then the average, but when it is up loud and I have inefficient large speakers, so I typically am running a pretty good load, I could hear the power being limited when run thru all of the surge protectors that did filtration, and so unless I go to the bigger Monster ith the balanced transfomers I will leave it this way.

There are other products but for what it does and the price I have found Monster to be a very reasonable product for the dollar. You can also sometimes get new one's on sites for like 500 bills to 550 when retail is 700, so since with life warranty I only have to buy once, a few extra 100 with performance increases also, it is worth it to me.

I recently had a lightning strike on my house and more than a dozen devices got blown out. Here is what I found out about APC UPS:

I have my cable modem, wireless router directly on a 300VA APC UPS and one computer on a power strip with surge protection behind the UPS and another computer on another power strip (with built-in surge protection of course) directly to AC power. All my networking devices died and all the computers are fine with the exception of network cards inside (surge travels from the router through network cable to the network cards).

Anyone here notice the similarities between Brickwall and Zerosurge? I...dentical!

dsm363,
I will respectfully disagree with much of what Addicted Help posted concerning surge protection. Please read my first two posts on this thread dated 7-11. I think I spelled out pretty clearly the two available technologies, the clear advantage of series mode designs vs. MOV's and the four sources I know of for the former. The Adcom ACE units are series mode designs, that's why I posted the link to them.

For serious power conditioning/filtering the Adcom ACE units are okay, but check out the Exact Power EP15A before you decide. Much better performance IMHO. I have my entire system running through it with excellent results. My amp and speakers are similar to Addicted Helps (240wpc @ 8 ohms driving large, current-hungry floorstanders). The Exact Power NEVER compresses the sound, quite the opposite. It provides intantaneous, voltage-regulated, noise-filtered current to the system. Current output is up to 46A! Now that summer is here, momentary brownouts are frequent. The house lights can dim, but anything plugged into the EP chugs along smoothly like nothing happened.

jkhome,
Of course Brickwall and Zero Surge are the same, as are the other two series mode products I posted links to. That's the idea! :) Zero Surge was the original inventor and patent-holder of the technology. The other three have licensed from him to build their own versions.

Foxbat121 (and everyone else who has cable, satellite and/or a roof antenna),

Sorry for your disaster. APC makes a coax surge protector that sells for about $25-30. Put these on all coax lines that connect your system to the outside. They're MOV-based and should be replaced every year or two, but that's way better than nothing. Coax lines that go outside the house are an open path to every lightning storm that passes through.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
APC makes a coax surge protector that sells for about $25-30. Put these on all coax lines that connect your system to the outside. They're MOV-based and should be replaced every year or two, but that's way better than nothing.
I've got quite a few protectors (not coax), various brands, in use for inside electronics gear. The protectors were all obtained years ago (12+ yrs.) Anyone know how to determine if they're still okay? I've got a rarely used dual-trace scope, DVM, and electronics experience, although not in this area. Thanks. -- John

John,

I don't think series mode suppressors have been around for that long. Anything 12+ years old is almost certainly MOV-based and very suspect due to the many hits it's probably absorbed over time.

How to test? Sorry, I'm no electrician. Maybe a kite and a string?! :D

I do know that it's possible to test. One MOV device I once owned had an indicator LED that came on when the MOV had taken the last hit it could handle. Stacey Spears might know how to test. He posts on the forum as "sspears". Try PM-ing him and let us know if you find a way.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
Foxbat121 (and everyone else who has cable, satellite and/or a roof antenna),

Sorry for your disaster. APC makes a coax surge protector that sells for about $25-30. Put these on all coax lines that connect your system to the outside. They're MOV-based and should be replaced every year or two, but that's way better than nothing. Coax lines that go outside the house are an open path to every lightning storm that passes through.

Thanks for the info. I may be interested on getting this one.
However, my incident is differnt this time. Lightning stoke my house directly(damaged my chimney) and spread all over my house and eventually go through coax cable lines and destroyed the equipment of my Cable co as well (more than a week without TV and internet). I think there are probably no surge protector can protect this kind of direct hit. Hope it never happens again.

Foxbat121,

I'm not sure if I understand two of your statements:

... all the computers are fine with the exception of network cards inside (surge travels from the router through network cable to the network cards).I think there are probably no surge protector can protect this kind of direct hit. The first statement implies that your computers are fine because their AC lines were surge protected. The only items damaged were those connected to a NON-protected network. From this I deduce that it IS possible to protect from a direct strike, and in fact you did. Am I missing something?

P. S. I too hope it never happens again, to you or anybody!

The networking devices are connected to APC UPS which also claims to have surge protection. I didn't bother to list other equipments that got busted while connecting to the surge protector/power strips in other locations (Both of my TVs, VCR, Fax machine and XBox). It sounds like depends how good the equipment is designed to withstand that kind of spikes. My original post is about APC UPS isn't any better than other regular surge protector in dealing with lightning.

On this same topic, I'm currently trying to decide between a Brickwall PW8R15/PW8R15AUD and Adcom ACE-315/615. I'm mainly looking for surge protection here in my thunderstorm-heavy surroundings, but good filtering couldn't hurt either. These devices both match my price point and desire for non-MOV.

So far, from what I can see, the Adcoms edge out the Brickwall for coax/phone protection, remote triggering, and finally just overall look.

Any comments on Adcom vs. Brickwall head-to-head? How about on filtering? Are they comparable?

Thanks!

I can't comment on the Adcom, but I'm very happy with
my Brickwall so far. My home theater is on the same circuit
as a fluorescent light fixture, and before the Brickwall
I could hear a dull very brief "thud" from my subwoofer
whenever that lightswitch was flipped. That problem is
of course gone. And I honestly believe that my OTA digital
television reception is better now that my HD receiver is
plugged into a filtered power outlet.

When I was shopping the Brickwall didn't offer any filtering. Just surge protection. If they have filtering now I have no experience with it.

Nice that the Adcom has coax surge protection too. That's important.

I bought a Surgex to protect the entire dedicated HT circuit plus an Exact Power for regulation/filtering. At the time there was no one-box solution. Exact Power has now added surge protection and digital filters to the EP15A. Don't know if the surge protection is MOV or series mode, but it's a great unit. (As it should be for the price.)

foxbat, you were talking about lightning causing surges that came through the cable modem coax. What's that got to do with an APC USP when the cable that was the entry point wasn't protected? Most of their UPSs do have built-in protection for phone lines, which would protect DSL broadband connections, and as noted above APC has separate coax surge protectors ($27 at Amazon) for cable/satellite cables.

-Lee

No, the lightning is not from cable coax but rather electric wires because I opened my cable modem and router myself.

Ah, okay... I was confused by your original post that I read as the surge came through the network, which would mean the cable modem cable for you.

Well, if the APC didn't stop it, didn't your UPS have a guarantee for lightning protection? I'd like to see what sort of benefit this is or isnit!

Originally posted by Foxbat121
I have my cable modem, wireless router directly on a 300VA APC UPS and one computer on a power strip with surge protection behind the UPS and another computer on another power strip (with built-in surge protection of course) directly to AC power. All my networking devices died and all the computers are fine with the exception of network cards inside (surge travels from the router through network cable to the network cards).

-Lee

I guess I know about this problem better than anybody here....I live in Central Florida, where lightning is part of our lives. Anyway, thanks to you guys I decided to replace my Monster surge protector by a Brickwall unit that should be here in 3 or 4 days. I let you know about any picture improvement, if any. Now...another question for the forum...Few weeks ago I was convinced by the Power Company to install what they call a "METER BASE SUPRESSOR" that, according to them, would protect all my electronics and appliances from lightning. I'm paying US$6.37 a month for this device that was installed at my power meter. Is anybody here familiar with such thing? Am I wasting money? The power CO claims no surge protector on earth can avoid damage to my gear if a lightning strikes my home.

Comments, please. Thanks again for a lecture on this subject.

Sergio

The power CO claims no surge protector on earth can avoid damage to my gear if a lightning strikes my home. In that case, ask them to explain what they're charging you for!

Originally posted by leesweet
Well, if the APC didn't stop it, didn't your UPS have a guarantee for lightning protection? I'd like to see what sort of benefit this is or isnit!


-Lee

I didn't bother to look into that. because my home insurance already covers it and other stuff that are not connected to the APC UPS.

Fair enough, but with the way home insurance policies are being canceled right and left for any claim at all, I'd sure be calling APC and not the insurance company. No deductable with APC, I believe...

-Lee

Sergio,

It looks like you are on a good path -- more than most -- toward home surge suppression, short of the dreaded direct lightning strike.

The utility-supplied Whole-House Surge Suppressor is the first line of defense. In general, these after-market units are aimed at protecting major appliances, rather than sensitive electronic gear, which is verified by reading the warranty. That's why it is also is recommended to use secondary or point-of-use surge protectors. Here is where your Brickwall Series Mode unit serves your HT gear.

In fact, you cud plug the existing MonsterPower protector into the Brickwall to get a handier power center/plug outlets, plus somewhere to attach your CATV or satellite coax cables (this is mandatory to protect the whole system).

The key to all this is good grounding outside and near the main service panel, hopefully a stake that's longer than 4 feet and NOT sitting in loose, sandy or gravelly soil, and using a clamp that hasnt badly corroded and loosened. Often, the stakes are buried and makes it more of a chore to track down the 6AWG bare grounding wire out of the panel box.

Lastly, one oughta revisit the homeowner's insurance policy to get the full replacement coverage you may need after some CATASTROPHIC electrical hit.

bill

2 things still seem unclear to me. The first is UPS. I thought that the worst that could happen with a hit on a UPS unit is that it would fry the battery. Thus all the gear would be safe, and you just get a new UPS (or the replacement battery)?

The other thing is coax surge suppression. I had always heard (and experienced) that this tends to corrupt the signal a good deal. Does that only apply to the cheap outlet protectors with the 2 little coax suppressors on the end? Perhaps a dedicated coax protector doesn't have the same kind of interference?

Things evolve...

if one HAS to use a UPS, it can be plugged into a Series Mode (ZeroSurge, Surge-X, Brickwall, Adcom ACE) to avoid frying the battery at all.

Coax terminal "insertion loss" is much improved, especially of the Panamax models today.

My point is not to save the UPS, but rather, can the UPS die to save the rest. I was under the impression (mistaken perhaps?) that unlike a MOV surge protector, which does allow a short spike through (or more if the power's too much for it) - that the spikes can't pass through the UPS. AC charges the battery, and battery powers the gear. So if a hit comes through, the worst it would do is fry the battery, and leave the gear with no power. The point being, that no spike makes it to your gear. Is that correct?

BTW, thanks for the info on the cable suppressor advances. Perhaps its time to give them a chance again.

The point is that the energy in a lightning is much more than any battery on earth can hold. Obviously the excess energy has to go somewhere. Besides, I doubt the battery is quick enough to react to lightning surge.

Bill

Thanks for your comments. I will soon replace the Monster by the Brickwall but will keep my phone and coax cables hooked to the Monster since the Brickwall has no phone/coax slots. What you said is exactly what the Power guy said when he convinced me to go for the service. He strongly recommended that I should keep using surge suppressors at my electronics.

I think this is a subject of maximum importance and I know many people that spends 40K on a home theater but is cheap when choosing the surge suppressor.

This is a good forum with very helpful people. Thanks.

Sergio

As best I can tell the Adcom units are the only non-MOV units discussed so far that have both coaxial and telephone line surge protection built in. The 315 has one set of each and the 615 has 2 coaxial and 1 phone pair. These units sound to me like the best solution for reliable surge protection of home theater components. My only reservation in buying is that it seems to me the Adcom technology (ILS) is different than the Zerosurge (series mode). Can anyone clear this up?

jbarraza,

I think Adcom is using their own name for the same technology, probably for marketing purposes. My recollection of the description made it sound identical. Can't say this for certain without re-researching, it's been too long since I studied up on this.

Obviously Newbie Question of the Day:

Will plugging a UPS (I also have an APC) into a unit like the zerosurge or Brickwall unit give you any problems or do they coexist nicely?

I'm in Central (east) Florida (lightning capitol of the US) and in a neighborhood that Florida Plunder and Loot.. err Power and Light likes to put in darkness at least once a week. A UPS is necessary because I have a 50" DLP on the way and I've read it doesn't like abrupt power loss and after spending that much on electronics I want something more to protect them than a designed-to-fail surge system in the UPS.

All said, I'm DAMNED glad I found this place. There is more information on these forums than I could digest in a lifetime. Makes me feel so much better having a resource like this available after spending way too much money on big boy toys ;)

Sorry, I'm rambling, and slightly medicated so if the above makes no sense at all forgive me ;)

Originally posted by JMitchell
Will plugging a UPS (I also have an APC) into a unit like the zerosurge or Brickwall unit give you any problems or do they coexist nicely?

They should coexist quite nicely
and give you an ideal solution for power handling
(real protection PLUS uninterruptibility).

Any opinions on the Panamax 4300? Is this MOV technology or that other one? Thanks.

Sliderman,

The info in my first July 11 post is still valid. Since the Panamax 4300 has a joules rating it is probably MOV-based. It certainly is not Series Mode based. No Series Mode surge suppressor even has a joules rating.

Thanks, Doug.

Sliderman, I've edited my 7/11 post to make it a little more meaningful (I hope!). Added an explanation of "joules ratings" and what they're really about. Thanks for nudging me to improve it.

I appologize for the very basic nature of these questions, but am hoping someone will be kind enough to clear up some of my confusion.

1 - What are "switched" outlets? When a surge protector or line conditioner has, say, 2 "always on" and 6 "switched" outlets, how many devices can I plug into it at the same time?

2 - If I have a device where the power cord does not reach to where a surge protector or line conditioner is housed, will running a simple extension cord from the protector/conditioner to the device give it the same protection? In the case of a line conditioner, will the extension cord mess up the conditioning? If I had to use this solution, should I be looking for some sort of premium or high-end extension cord, rather than something generic?

After reading this thread, I feel lucky that I no longer intend to spend $450+ on a Monster HTS 5100 or similar and instead can get a superior technology for a lower price; however, in looking at the 4 companies' products, and in reading some of these posts, I'm still a little confused about what my best overall option is. If I want something to plug into an outlet that I will then plug all my devices into - a reciever, a display, a hybrid player, a second DVD (bravo), and even a VCR - what's the best thing for both protection and for providing the best sound and video for the components plugged into it? It seems like the Adcoms (the 315 or 615) might be a good deal b/c they have both surge protection and line conditioning. Is this right? I saw that some of the brickwalls seem to be designed just for "audiophile" applications, for instance. Is the Adcom (or something else) a better overall product for my comprehensive use?

Thanks so much!!
Jack

Hopefully I can answer your questions satisfactorily.

1) Switched outlets are what they seem. There is a switch on almost all surge protectors and the outlets marked as 'switched' are the ones that are controlled by the switch. Turn off the switch, those outlets go dead. The ones that are always on are, you guessed it, always on regardless of the surge strip's switch being on or off. If you have 2 always on and 6 switched, then you still have 8 usable outlets.

2) As long as you keep the extension cord short, and heavy duty you should be ok. You can go to most hardware stores and pick up 'doglegs' which are heavyduty, heavy gage short extension cords. They make them for power tools and stuff so you can get between 3 and 9 feet without problem in most places.

I don't 'think' that a short, heavy gage extension cord would cause problems with a line conditioner as long as it (the cord) is of a decent quality. I wouldn't hit up Big Lots or the Dollar store to get them though ;). I would think that a short good quality extender wouldn't cause you any problems with your conditioners and such, but there are far, far more educated and experienced people on the board so hopefully someone else will chip in as well.

As far as your last question concerning the Adcoms and Brickwalls. It would seem that at first glance they are all compartively the same with the exception of each company's tweaks of the licensed technology (line conditioners and the like on some that aren't on others) and I really don't think you could go wrong with any of them but again, I am not much help here because I'm not the audio/videophile that you'd need to ask.

-Joe

Joe's answers seem right to me.

Aside from some noise filtering, the major difference in the "audiophile" versions from Brickwall is heavier gauge internal wiring. They have standard 15A plugs and receptacles for use on regular household circuits, but are internally wired for 20 amp service. This was done because some audiophiles with current-hungry power amps reported that the original, lighter-duty Brickwalls limited current and caused audible compression on dynamic passages.

I can't really compare the filtering/conditioning of Adcom vs. Brickwall. I wanted better filtering/conditioning than any of these units offer, so I got a Surgex for surge protection and a totally different (and much more costly) unit for the other purposes.

Thank you very much, JMitchell and Doug Deacon!!

Jack

Adcom 315 versus Brickwall 8R15A- I have the same question raised several times but not directly answered by anyone yet. Just getting started with my home theater and looking for good surge protection as well as some line conditioning for around $200.

As other have mentioned, Adcom offers the plus of COAX protection and Brickwall does not. I spoke to a Brickwall customer support person today who recommended Citel and APC products for COAX protection but would very much appreciate any expert opinions for this newbie. Will I get better surge protection and some added line conditioning from the Adcom or Brickwall? The price for either is approx. the same. Anmy good advice will be greatly appreciated as I need to purchase this weekend for my new widescreen and home theater.

Sully

You need to find out how the adcom handles the coax protection. If via MOVs, these are expendable, which means that someday the coax cable won't be protected, while the line voltage technology supposedly will not degrade.

And are all your coax cables located near the line level protection, or are you going to have extra cable and connectors to combine everything into one unit?

I use a Zerosurge unit (same as Brickwall), with some $5.00 Surgender in-line coax protectors located on my DSS and cable connections, where convenience.

I'm doing a major upgrade (for me) from a 27" tube to a 50" wide Panasonic LCD TV with a yet to be purchased surround sound. I expect to hook all of this up with a currently owned DVD so I don't know if that helps answer your question regarding where my coax cables are/will be located.

Are your Surgender protectors MOV based and subject to annual replacement?

Thanks

Why would you replace them anually? They should last longer than that. Most surge supressors will have some sort of light indicating if surge protection is functioning. Also, you can probably buy a new MOV for around $2.00. Does anyone do this for their surge protectors?

Here's a link with the specs of the Surgender. Sorry, no indicator lights on these. I am assuming that there is a loss of signal when they fail.

http://www.newtechindustries.com/newtech/access/se1k.htm

There is a "surge life" rating, which tells me they have a finite life span.

Doug, RE: Brickwall audio v. regular. I understood the main difference between aud and other brickwalls were that each outlet was isolated from the others. Maybe this is another way of saying what you said. I didn't get the impression there was any additional line conditioning.

JBach/Doug

When I spoke to Brickwall yesterday and asked the difference between the AUD and regular models, the rep told me that he only recommends the AUD model if you are using a turntable (The turntable some sort of noise/signal that can interfere with the other circuitry). You may want to call Brickwall yourself (their # is at Brickwall.com) - the customer service rep was very informative and sounded like he new what he was talking about.

I've been reading the posts on this forum and just want to confirm, Brickwall first, UPS second and equipment plugged into UPS should provide excellent protection. Correct?

Correct.

jkhome wrote of a certain coax surge protector, "I am assuming that there is a loss of signal when they fail."

Why would you make such a dangerous assumption? When an MOV-based AC surge protector fails there's no loss of AC. Quite the opposite. Now everything that's on the circuit flows through.

Good point...I'll check it out and get back to ya!

OK...called the manufactuer (see link below) in Fla. They stated that the unit would not pass a signal after failure. I asked them to send me an e-mail for a written statement to copy/paste...still waiting for that.

http://www.pdi-sat.com/

Just to give all a heads up about coax surge protection, just in case you did not read my problems that were occuring on my ATSC OTA signals.

I was getting cutouts of my signal all the time, whenever my fridge dumped ice, water solenoid kicked in, my heater kicked on, central air kicked on, ceiling fans changed speed or got turned off, etc. After I hooked up an inexpensive Panamax DBS surge protector on the coax, it now is gone 99.999% of the time and I highly recommend a coax surge protector to EVERYONE, transient voltages are your enemy with a digital OTA signal, of course lightning strikes too, but you will have more problems more often with transient voltages being fed to your coax.

Jim

After I hooked up an inexpensive Panamax DBS surge protector on the coax, it now is gone 99.999% of the time and I highly recommend a coax surge protector to EVERYONE, transient voltages are your enemy with a digital OTA signal, of course lightning strikes too, but you will have more problems more often with transient voltages being fed to your coax.

Which Panamax DBS did you use?

Thanks,

Jeff

Originally posted by ride525
Which Panamax DBS did you use?

Thanks,

Jeff

MAX DBS+, I bought it a few years ago though.

Jim

jkhome,

Great job researching. Looks like the Surgender is a safe and cost-effective solution for coax protection. I'm going to order a couple myself.

May I have your permission to add the Surgender links to my original 7/11 post. That way it can be a one-stop resource for anyone looking for surge protection information.

Doug

"May I have your permission to add the Surgender links to my original 7/11 post. That way it can be a one-stop resource for anyone looking for surge protection information."

Sure...don't know why you would need it (rules-what rules?). I found this forum from hanging out at the "asylum", where cutting/pasting old threads are common place. But I think that's due to the fact the once a thread gets past the "front page"or there after, it's history, delegated to the archives.

BTW, I have no relationship with PDI-SAT, just happened that the local electronics store carries their product. It does seem like a lot of satellite installers use them.

[Moving Oxide Varistor (MOV) surge suppressors
MOV's are used in Monster, APC, Walmart, Rat Shack and nearly every other surge suppressor. MOV's have three features you need to know about:[/b]

Thats a new one for me , MOV stands for 'Metal Oxide Varistor' not 'Moving Oxide Varistor' .

MrMagoo

I have a question - what kind of on-board surge projection to some of the better RP sets feature?

I realize that many people here have spent from $2,000 to far, far more than that on single large electronic devices like a RPTV. If I spend $5,000 on a top quality set, should my expectation be that it has, at the minimum, some line conditioning ability built in? It seems borderline ludricrous to assume not, and yet I suspect that may be the case.

Maybe borderline naive to assume yes.

Sorry MrMagoo, my typo, which I'll fix. Wanna trade names? :)

sphinx99, unless they say so in the specs, I wouldn't count on it.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
There are only two technologies widely available for surge/spike protection. Once you understand the differences between them, the decision about which technology to buy is trivially easy.

Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV) surge suppressors
MOV's are used in Monster, APC, Walmart, Rat Shack and nearly every other surge suppressor. MOV's have three features you need to know about:

1. They all have a finite clamping speed, some of the surge gets through before the rest is shunted to ground. Your "protected" equipment takes a constant series of mini-spikes. Nothing you'll notice, nothing to invoke the $5MM equipment replacement warranty, but not good for delicate circuits either.

2. MOV's work by shunting excess voltage to ground, which contaminates the ground of all circuits that share the same ground. Electrical grunge and screwed up voltage for the whole system.

3. MOV's are all designed to fail. They are a consumable. Every spike they absorb, whether large or small, degrades them. That's what their "joules rating" is for, it tells you how many joules the device is designed to absorb before failing.

Once an MOV fails, and they all will, they provide no more protection. Zero. If your unit doesn't have some kind of warning indicator (most don't) you'll find out when the next spike comes through and fries your equipment.

Update: a few lucky users will find out immediately when their MOV takes its final hit, since they've been known to ignite. That's right, a fire in your HT rack! To be honest, this is quite rare... feel better?

Not interested in MOV-based "protection"? Keep reading.

Series Mode (SM) surge suppressors
These were originally designed for the Dept. of Defense, which wasn't happy with the limitations of MOV-based protectors. They are far more reliable and robust than MOV's:

1. SM suppressors have virtually infinite reaction speed, nothing gets through above the threshold.

2. Excess voltage is never shunted to ground where it can contaminate the system. When a spike comes in a SM device opens the circuit. No circuit, no surge.

3. A SM suppressor will not wear out in your lifetime. They are not designed-to-fail consumables. SM surge suppressors have no joules ratings because, realistically speaking, they have no capacity limits. There is no practical way to measure the total joules these devices can handle. It would be like trying to measure the amount of water you can pour into a bottomless cup.

For more details about SM surge suppressors:
http://www.digitaltechonline.com/surgeprotect.asp

AFAIK, they are available from just four commercial sources. Compared with the value of your equipment they're not very expensive. I have one on the dedicated circuit that runs my entire HT setup. Cost me about $250 plus an electrician to wire it in. If you prefer a unit that you can just plug into the wall, or even a whole-house unit, they make those too.

Sources for SM surge suppressors:
www.zerosurge.com (the inventor of the technology)
www.brickwall.com (good value and a sponsor of this forum)
www.surgex.com (wall-based units like mine)
www.adcom.com (audio components with SM protection)

Note: your coax lines (cable/sat/antenna) are also pathways for electrical surges. No matter how well-protected your AC lines are, a nearby lightning strike could damage or destroy any equipment connected, directly or indirectly, to these lines. An inexpensive device is available to prevent this. This device apparently takes a limited number of hits before dying but, here's the key, when it does reach its limit it stops passing signal. This is the opposite of what MOV's do, and is much safer for your equipment. Product details are at:

http://www.newtechindustries.com/newtech/access/se1k.htm

Thanks to jkhome for finding this product, which costs less than $5 from many sources.

Disclaimer: I don't have trouble changing light bulbs, but I am not an electrician or electrically qualified in any way. The above is based on a lot of careful research when looking for my own surge protection devices.

This was a great post- Thanks for the input

FWIW, We've had 2 older APC UPS's catch fire recently. One of them was here at work and several weeks later one at a coworkers house. When I say older, we're guessing they were 9+ years old each.

SurgeX actually has a brand new line of surge protectors/conditioners/filters just unveiled at CEDIA.

Link to them here: Empower (http://www.empowerac.com)

Also, I don't know if this has been answered before, but will the Surgenders work on DBS coax? I have read that special devices must be used because the power passed along DBS connected coax.
If they do not, any serial devices out there that do?

Mfusick, thanks. I was really on a roll that day. Reading some of the nonsensical debates about the value of a (useless) Monster protector vs. an (equally useless) APC one inspired me I suppose.

pigbat, you're the second person who's posted something like that on this thread. Zvogt had a similar experience. Just verifies what I learned in my research and mentioned in the now infamous post.

Hi Jetlag, Thanks for the new Surgex info. I assume the new lineup will be added to their own website when it's available (?). I have no answer for your DBS question. You'd probably know better than me! Guess we'll have to ask them. Maybe I can get to it next week if no one else answers first.

Thanks to all for helping keep this thread current! Gotta run, my turn to cook dinner . . .

"Also, I don't know if this has been answered before, but will the Surgenders work on DBS coax? I have read that special devices must be used because the power passed along DBS connected coax.
If they do not, any serial devices out there that do?"

If you mean between the dish and receiver, yes, that's where one of mine are now. By adding it I did not loose any signal strength either, as per the unit's built in meter. It is a SD Direct TV unit, can't answer for the HD sets yet. (hopefully by X-mas I'll have one of those)

http://dlsus.chainreactionweb.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118

jkhome, thanks. I can confirm that the Surgender does not degrade HD signals either, at least not any more than my old APC coax surge suppressor.

I'm considering getting the Monster HTPS 7000 SS because of it's balanced power features and to be honest it looks pretty damn cool.. I assume this is a MOV based unit (no mention of SM technology) I assume that if I get a surge the unit will only protect once?

Will Monster replace the unit if this is the case?? On their website, the unit has a five year product and connected equipment warranty.

Is it feasible to get the Monster then get a SM unit like a Brickwall and plug the Monster into it??


Thanks,
jt

I won't be sure if it was worth it until the receiver I
am waiting for is release at the end of October, but
it does look cool :D

gt5059b,

It is not true that the Monster will protect against only one surge. Reread the post linked in my signature.

You can certainly plug the Monster into a SM device and that's what I'd do. I have an Exact Power EP15A power conditioner, which also includes some MOV protection like the Monster. It is protected by a Surgex.

I have a question similar to that posed by gt5059b. I am definitely interested in the Adcom ace-315, since it is the only SM protector I could find with both AC and coax protection. However, I would like to also purchase a Monster unit to benefit from the better line conditioning, and yeah, for the coolness factor. Couple questions though.

1) Would the Monster actually offer better line conditioning when plugged into the Adcom? More specifically, better enough to be worth the price.

2) Would I be better off getting one of their HTPS's with the clean power features, or one of the voltage stabilizers? Which one would I benefit more from? Or is that really apples to oranges?

Thanks!

The APC RS 1500VA has "Voltage Regulator" ($150). I've also seen other UPS without this feature.

being that all UPS have a battery, is it safe to assume that By just using any UPS, I am protected against surges AND brownouts? Or, should be extra cautious and get the one that specifically says it has a "Voltage Regulator" or "Line Conditioning"?

What wattage would I need to hook up my Sammy 507 DLP?

midblue,

I can't address your first question, since I haven't experienced either of those units. As far as line conditioners vs. voltage stabilizers, it depends on what kind of electrical problems you suffer from. In my area, frequent voltage drops (mini-brownouts) are a big problem. I therefore went with the voltage control offered by Exact Power, which neither Monster nor Adcom can match. If you have a different set of problems, you'll need to choose equipment designed to address them. IOW, you may need apples, oranges or both!

newguy548, the battery in a UPS will not protect your equipment from a large surge, still less a nearby lightning strike. No battery made by man has that kind of capacity. Neither "voltage regulators" nor "line conditioners" address or provide that kind of protection either. The safe approach is the one recommended in the post linked in my signature.

The wattage of your 507 will be listed in the owner's manual and also on a tag on the back of the set.

I came across this thread from a link elswhere on AVS.

I saw that people were looking at coax surge protection and thought I would mention that Radio Shack has an add-on coax surge protector for $10. The model # is 15-1110. The surge life is 5x that of the Surgender and also lists a frequency range of 5 to 2050MHz. Other than that, I cannot comment on the unit.

What I am looking for though is more comments on the Adcom ACE protectors. I'm constantly seeing posts about Brickwall/SurgeX and the others, but nothing about the Adcom units???? Does anyone have/installed these units?

Thanks Doug. I understand the Surge issues and that I should get the Series Mode suppressors.

my concern is more about brownouts. Do the Surge suppressors also protect my equipment during brownouts?

My lights dim out or flicker every once in a while. I am guessing that is due to low voltage in my lines. I'm concerned that it might harm my sammy 507 (which will be dedlivered next week).

newguy548,

Those quick brownouts happen in my house all the time also. None of the four SM surge suppressor brands I'm aware of offer any protection from under-voltage, just over-voltage.

I think you're right to worry about the effect brownouts could have on your new TV. I addressed that problem (and others) with an Exact Power EP15A. It handles brownouts flawlessly but it's quite expensive. A decent UPS like the one you mentioned above costs far less, and would be even better during an actual blackout. You'd have long enough to shut the TV down properly. If it also did some voltage regulation and/or line filtering, all the better.

video321,

Thanks for the tip on the RS 15-110. I'll check it out.

I've never seen the Adcom ACE units in person. FWIW, here's my take on them vs. the Surgex I chose:

- I didn't want a full size component in my rack just for surge protection

- I could mount a Surgex near the electrical panel and forget about it, or hide a Brickwall or ZeroSurge behind some other component

- The Adcom is more expensive than the others, but it looks nicer

- The Adcom offers coax protection, but we both now know that's available really cheaply from other sources

- The Adcom offers some line filtering, but I already had better line conditioning from my Exact Power

Hope that wasn't totally useless. :) Maybe somone who's actually got an ACE will chime in.

I got the brickwall suppressor. The instructions say that it shouldn't be plugged into another surge protector, but I'm not clear if this means that I shouldn't plug a power strip with surge protection into the brick wall.

Also, if I shouldn't plug a surge protector into the brickwall, then what do I do about connecting a UP, all of the ones I've seen seem to come with surge protection.

brick33308,

I imagine Brickwall doesn't want you putting a less robust device, like an MOV, before theirs. That would expose you to some of the risks of MOV's, like overheating and ignition for instance.

OTOH, I can't think of any problems doing it the other way. If the Brickwall stops the hits first anything plugged into it will never see a surge anyway and should have no difficulties. That's how my setup is. I have a Surgex with an Exact Power plugged into that. The EP has MOV's in it, but they never see a spike so they're never stressed.

Doug-

May I ask why you chose to go with SurgeX over the others? More specific, I've been eyeing up the Brickwall 20A panel mount for a while. However, you chose to go with a SurgeX panel mount which is ~$100 more than the Brickwall unit. Is there something the SurgeX unit does that the Brickwall doesn't? Also, did you place the unit by your main panel or close to your theater?

brick33308-

Which unit did you get? Any comments on it?

Thanks guys:)

I got the model 2r15.

http://brickwall.com/prod2r.htm

Won't have comments until there's a lightening strike at the house. :)

"Also, if I shouldn't plug a surge protector into the brickwall, then what do I do about connecting a UP, all of the ones I've seen seem to come with surge protection."

Many people plug in power conditioners between their Brickwalls and their equipment, shouldn't make any difference at all, as long as the downstream loads don't exceed the Brickwalls power rating.

Thanks brick.

Also, this is from SurgeX:

We recommend that SurgeX units are placed close to the equipment to be protected. This is because long wires can pick up surges and transients by magnetic coupling

Is there any truth to that?
If so, what about coax and telco lines? Currently I'm protecting those lines w/surge devices only where they enter the house and not at the individual drop locations. Say, if lighting strikes nearby, could a surge jump into the middle of my line leaving the end device completely unprotected?

video321,

I have the Surgex SX-15NE. I wanted a panel-mount unit and the others didn't offer that at the time I bought. Cost me about $250 a year ago. PM me if you can't find a good source.

I've heard Surgex's advice to keep the protection close to the equipment from other sources, so I suppose it must be good advice, at least in theory. I have a 15-20' run of AC line from my Surgex to the wall outlet. However, the only thing plugged directly into that wall outlet is my Exact Power, which has additional (MOV-based) surge suppression. Since those MOV's will never see a normal surge, they should do the job in the rare case described by Surgex.

My coax protector is just a couple of feet below the outlet that serves the HT. The Surgender and Radio Shack units can be inserted anywhere and they're cheap, so I if you'd have more peace of mind, get one for each run and put it near the end.

Doug, everyone...

Thanks for a great thread...

Just ordered 4 surgenders and a brickwall PW8R15AUD...Cheap safety, and the Brickwall claims decent line conditioning as well.

Followed some Google links to reviews which compared it favorably to much pricier line conditioners which didn't have SM surge protection. (My more immediate concern).

Am getting literature from Surge-ex on the new Empower line...If it looks too cool to pass up I may use the brickwall on my computer setup.

Originally posted by moonhawk
Am getting literature from Surge-ex on the new Empower line...If it looks too cool to pass up I may use the brickwall on my computer setup.
What can you tell me about the Empower line? Any info would be great.

Thanks.

Very little, other than they look cool...the person I talked to couldn't give me price or other info, said they'd be out later this year.

I imagine they have more/better filtering in addition to SM protection.

There is a link at the top of their home page, which is linked in Doug's treatise on page 2 of this thread.... not much info though, just a picture...:)

They also look expensive...:(

moonhawk,

It's not just a treatise, it's become a f(*&ing monster. I wrote it in a moment of weakness and am now tied to it forever. At least Arun Gupta knew what he was getting into with all his HLN documentation. Maybe this will teach me not to spout my mouth off! :)

Seriously, I'm glad if it's helped give anyone better protection and/or peace of mind. Thanks for the heads-up on the new line from Surgex. Mine looks like an ugly gray box, but hey, it's only on the basement wall.

Doug if it wasn't for your post, I would have never known of the limitations of MOV based supressors. I'm getting my DLP this week and just got my Brickwall in yesterday ;-)

So thanks for the great help!!



Originally posted by Doug Deacon
moonhawk,

Seriously, I'm glad if it's helped give anyone better protection and/or peace of mind. Thanks for the heads-up on the new line from Surgex. Mine looks like an ugly gray box, but hey, it's only on the basement wall.

gt5095b, you're welcome. That's what's so great about this place. Enjoy the show!

Just to make sure that I get it right...having read various posts in this thread, it appears confusing..

I have a Stereo, Home theatre, VCR, DISH Receiver, and (in 48 hours) a DLP. So if I get a PW8R15AUD, plug it in the main outlet, and then use ONE of its outlets to connect a MONSTER (level 2 or 3 ) surge protection strip, and in turn connect all devices on the monster, this would be a great setup. However, i am not sure why I in this setup I would beed a PW8R15AUD which has 8 outputs?

Sorry for the typo. In prev. msg, read BEED ---> NEED

Khiyal,

The setup you describe is the right way to combine a Series Mode surge protector with a seperate power conditioner. However, there's no reason to buy an 8-outlet Brickwall. Just buy one of the two outlet models from Brickwall, ZeroSurge or Surgex. I have (in effect) a one-outlet Surgex with a multi-outlet power conditioner plugged into it. All components are then plugged into the power conditioner.

Doug

P.S. To correct a typo just click the "edit" button at the top right corner of your massage, um, missage, um... post! ;)

Great! Thanks for the info Doug.

So it is a Brick Wall PW2RAUD 20A ($185 + 12.85 Shipping) and a Monster HTS5100 (S449 + 31.99 Shipping). Hopefully would get these within the next few days. Thanks all for the help.

PS: The SURGENDER is confusing... The price that is.. I have seen it as low as $2.19 to as high as $16.99. Is the following the same as what is being discussed here?

http://dlsus.chainreactionweb.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118

Doug-

It seems that those Radio Shack coax protectors I told you about are rated to clamp @75V ("strips" clamp at ~35V for satellite and 1V for cable). This seems rather high to me...is it?

Also, the whole house surge protector I have is rated @500V clamping. I know this isn't the preferred rating of 400V, but how much of a difference does it make to my electroncis without a seperate surge protector?

George

George,

I'm highly UNqualified to answer these questions. Perhaps someone with real electronics knowledge will step in.

FWIW, Brickwall claims a maximum let-through voltage of 290V. This is obviously "better" than 400 or 500, but how much difference this would make to your equipment is beyond my knowledge.

Doug

Doug,

Thank you so much for the post. Just spoke to Brickwall - their sales person confirmed that unless you have analog devices like VCR or turntable - you are ok with "non-AUD" version. He also metioned that from the surge protection perspective the 2 outlet version + some kind of outlet replicator plugged in is fine, but from the quality of sound - to each its own -:)

Thanks again for all
Steven

Khiyal - yes, that's the Surgender I have. Great price at $2.19!

ladislav_1969,

You're welcome. That's interesting input from Brickwall. I always thought the AUD models were more heavily wired to ensure no current limiting, which would be more important for power amps than VCR's or TT's. Live and learn.

Doug

A point of clarification needed. Would I need the surgender(s) if I use the monster 5100 set which already has 3 coax modules.

It depends on what kind of surge protectors Monster uses in their coax modules:if they're MOV based, when they take their last hit they'll let the next spike through and/or catch fire (bad),

if they're gas tube based like the Surgender, when they take their last hit they should stop passing any signal (good),

if they're series mode based (very unlikely from Monster AFAIK) they should protect you more or less forever (best)
You'll have to read the Monster specs or ask them. Or just go big and shell out $2.19 per Surgender and have two levels of protection! If you do that, put the Surgenders before the Monster. That will protect the Monster just in case it's MOV-based.

I just got a Brickwall (8 outlet Audiophile version) and I can actually see the difference. My old surge suppressor must have had little to no actual filtering. It's stubtle mind you, but It's in viewing an older 27" CRT.

I am going to have a Samsung 467 soon. I will also use a Belkin 800VA UPS for it as well.

-Ed

I got the Brickwall as well, and 4 surgenders for various connections. I was hoping the Bric would stop an annoiying band of alternating magenta and green that crawls up my screen, (Only through my Dish 501), but it did not. However, I feel much better about my overall surge protection.

I called surgender today to ask wether it mattered what direction they went in, because the outlets on my wall plate are too closely spaced to fit them together. The guy said if they're not marked directionally, not to worry.

OK, I will have a main distribution closet which everything goes through. Dishnetwork, AVR, DVD, phone, etc..

So naturally I would want a series based protector in the closet and then a filter/conditoner... but what do I do with a ceiling mounted LCD projector, I was planing to put a 2 gang outlet in the ceiling, but now I'm looking for a way to run it off the protected power in the distribution closet.

Any ideas???

It looks like the in-line surge protectors such as the Surgender are great but I've had some nasty ground loops in the past even with my DBS and OTA Attena grounded on the outside of the house with a ground block and grounds on the antenna's themselves, I found the Panamax DBS takes care of that problem, where I don't think the Surgender would... any comments?

Originally posted by pepsi
It looks like the in-line surge protectors such as the Surgender are great but I've had some nasty ground loops in the past even with my DBS and OTA Attena grounded on the outside of the house with a ground block and grounds on the antenna's themselves, I found the Panamax DBS takes care of that problem, where I don't think the Surgender would... any comments?
The panamax is grounding the coax shield through the electrical ground circuit. Not a solution, but a fix. You should have every ground rod bonded with the main electrical ground. That's the fix, and code too.

Originally posted by pepsi
OK, I will have a main distribution closet which everything goes through. Dishnetwork, AVR, DVD, phone, etc..

So naturally I would want a series based protector in the closet and then a filter/conditoner... but what do I do with a ceiling mounted LCD projector, I was planing to put a 2 gang outlet in the ceiling, but now I'm looking for a way to run it off the protected power in the distribution closet.

Any ideas???
First to look into would be a panel mount version which will protect an entire circuit. Other than that, if you prefer one of the audio versions with isolated circuits, you could run a seperate romex to the projector which will connect to the protector in the closet. Not difficult at all, but consult an electrician to wire this properly.

Leviton has electrical outlets with built in surge.

Mike

For a ground loop hum filter on a coax run, go to RS and buy two 75-to-300 ohm converters. Should cost < $5. Wire the two 300 ohm sides together using any old wire. Insert in the 75 ohm run where convenient but AFTER the ground. Costs nearly nothing and works like a charm for me. (I'd credit the guy on AA who taught me that one but I can't find his post. It's buried over there somewhere.)

I found that if you run your grounds back to ONE terminating point, as per the NEC codes, you will have less ground loop problems. The grounding rod/connection that is at your service entrance power panel is supposed to be the ONLY ground connection to the ground of the transformer feeding your house, to add extra grounding rods/connections do nothing but increase the possibility of ground loops, plus are dangerous!

I found that if you run your grounds back to ONE terminating point, as per the NEC codes, you will have less ground loop problems

While true, it's also impracticle/impossible to do for older homes which predate cable being run as a standard install feature. My house is only 20 years old and the cable was installed well after the house was built. In that case you don't have much choice as to what you use for ground -- more often than not you end up with a new grounding spike somewhere out in your yard.

Yes, that’s how my house was, up until a few years ago when I upgraded from cable only service to cable/Internet/phone service via fiber optics from my cable company. The installers did what’s called a double run, in that they first ran the service to the power meter entrance, for phone/cable grounding and network box connections, then ran another line from there to the other side of the house, for cable and Internet hookup.

My concern would be if there was a major high amperage short to ground in the electrical system, such as a major failure of a large appliance. The electrical current will take the shortest route to the grounding connection of the outside transformer, which may be your home entertainment equipment via the cable ground. Also if the ground wire were undersized for this short, worst case would be the possibility of a fire. I would consult your local city code officials on the proper way to prevent this problem.

OK, this thread has been very timely for me. Thanks to everyone for their input!

One of the devices I had previously looked at is the Richard Gray Power Company line of products. Where do they fit in this mess? It looks like a large coil or transformer in parallel across the line, thus 'smoothing' the transients and storing EMF. Would the SM technology be better overall or would a good solution benefit by combining the products?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark, your explanation of the RGPC products is consistent with others I've read. Those who've tried them think they are very beneficial in the ways you described. I happened to choose the Exact Power EP15A, since I needed precise voltage regulation as much as or more than filtering. The Exact Power and the P S Audio units are the only ones that do that, AFAIK. I'm sure you wouldn't go wrong with any of these three, depending on your needs and budget.

The RGPC won't provide series mode spike protection and I'm sure they don't claim to. For that one of the devices I discussed in the post linked in my signature should be used. The surge protector should be installed earlier in the circuit than the RGPC or any other line conditioner.

Do the links at the end of my post all point to the same product mentioned in this thread?

Can this product be installed where the cable line enters into my apt. and protect all of my devices or does this need to be installed at each component?

Will this device interfere with a cable modem?

http://dlsus.chainreactionweb.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=118

http://www.hucarddirect.com/products/surgender.htm

http://www.skyvision.com/store/mi3000105.html

Thanks.

DCIFRTHS,

Yes that is the same product we've discussed earlier.

One near the cable entry would work, save for the small risk of a surge entering the cable between that point and a component. I suppose if lightning strikes there the TV or PC might be the least of your worries! Put the Surgender as close to the splitter as possible to minimize that risk.

I can't imagine it interfering with cable modem, though I don't have one myself to say for sure. It doesn't affect my analog or digital TV reception, which ought to be at least as sensitive as data going to a modem.

Any additional information on the Empower line from SureX? Looks cool and may combine the Monster with the Brickwall?

Sounds like people like the Brickwall+ Monster or other filter/conditioner combination?

I spoke with the Empower folks this week, the 510 will ship in November.

What is the 510? I thought the units on the web are 1100 and 2100 I think? What is the feature set of the 510 and the whole Empower line?

Info here: Empower (http://www.empowerac.com/)

Did not see any info on a 510 or any other details?

Thanks for the link.

Not much info there yet, just photos and marketing speak. OTOH, it's built by Surgex so the surge protection is very likely to be series mode based. That's good. Time will tell what kind of AC conditioning they provide.

If I didn't already have a Surgex spike protector + Exact Power AC voltage regulator/conditioner, I might hold off until this line is released. It might provide what many people need/want in one chassis instead of two.

doug,

I agree with your idea to hold off and wait in see. I do know the EM1100 will have 10 plugs (I think that is what I remember) and the EM2100 will have 14. I also noticed the new 510 link that Jetlag had indicated. I do not think I saw that yesterday. I think I did not hit the grey box item because it was not the "power bar" look

I bought surge protector at Wal-mart. It is not like the fancy high dollar ones your talking about but it does shut itself down when it has reached its capacity. The box says some brands use a few good low clamping MOV's plus several "dummy" high clamping MOV's to artificially boost the joule rating. Once the low clamping MOV's clamp the surge the high clamping MOV'a aren't utilized. So the surge protector has a shorter life span.
The Power Sentry uses parallel low-volgage clamping MOV's so all of them work side by side to absorb surges providing longer life.
Maybe not the best out there but not bad.
Question. If these things have a finite life and don't tell you when they are used up how often shold it be replaced? The one on my computer is several years old.

chas,

That's a good question but I don't think there's any scientific way to answer it. How many spikes has it absorbed? Of what size? You're essentially rolling the dice.

Try this: calculate the value of your computer and all the data on it, including how many hours it would take you to replace it, if you could. Divide that total by the cost of a new surge suppressor. I expect you could buy a new suppressor every week at the price! If you can't afford a series mode device I'd at least replace your old spike protector with one that shuts down when it fails.

For those who have multiple thousands invested in HT gear, a couple hundred dollars is less than nothing for real security. YMMV as always.

A line conditioner is just as important to your system as is the quality of your cables. I have always used monster clean power centers. The difference between the series 1-5 is the things that are hooked up to them. series 1 is good for small tvs and video products. series 2 adds audio filters( surround sound system). As you go up in the series they add more filters. You need to match the L.C. to the tv. You are not going to buy a $2000 line conditioner for a $3000 tv. On the other hand you dont want to put a $3000 tv on an $80 line conditioner. Personaly I own the 50" DLP and I have it hooked up to a $400 Monster line conditioner.

I'm having trouble finding authorized retailers of the Adcom ACE-315 that aren't overpriced. Even OneCall is pretty high compared to other prices I'm finding on the net. Where can I get the ACE-315 for a fair price and from an authorized reseller? Thanks for your help.

How does the combination of a Brickwall AUD and a Belkin Universal UPS (1200VA with Automatic Voltage Regulation) compare? Does it supply enough voltage regulation or are those "Monterously" expensive Power Conditioners really that good?

-Ed

This a great thread! I just found it tonight and read it. Great information!

Just to confuse the issue more so that it will be clear a mud, at least for me. Last week, I attended the PowerSystems World convention exhibit hall presentation. Of the exhibitors, the only ones that I was familiar with was Equi-tech (representing balanced power) and API (actually their commercial division was there). I went hoping to get more information on power systems. The equipment range was from components for power regulation in computers to 4 pole electrical systems for major corporations.

One if the more interesting products presented was from a company called Environmental Potentials, the EP-2000. They have a web site which goes into detail at www.ep2000.com. These units can be used at the relay box or the outlet for protection and filtering.

The other product was put out by Lyncole, which manufactures an XIT grounding system. Their website is www.lyncole.com.

Just something for show and tell!

junior_jam, Adcom is an audiophile oriented, dealer-only company. You'll have a hard time finding any authorized seller who'll discount their stuff much. :(

Edwood, if voltage regulation (specifically) is very important to you, then AFAIK there are only three companies whose products provide topnotch performance:

- Accuphase ($8K+, enough said!)

- P. S. Audio (regenerates simon-pure AC from scratch, various models from about $800+, world's cleanest power but ineffecient and expensive to run, for every 100 watts in you only get about 50 watts out, the rest is wasted as heat)

- Exact Power EP15A (regulates voltage and cleans up the sine wave in real time, $2K)

All other voltage regulators that I know of react to voltage changes after the fact. Is that good enough? That's up to you.

The higher end Monster units are excellent for line conditioning/filtering, which is different from voltage regulation. The lower end Monster power bars are junk, IMHO of course.

How's the Brickwall at Filtering?

-Ed

My power trials and tribulations:

I have 2 dedicated 20A circuits running to my equipment closet. On each separate line, right next to the CB panel, is a SurgeX SX-20NE. I shopped around and found a local dealer who gave me a very nice price on the two. Very easy to install, but if you have never worked with line voltage before, I might suggest hiring an electrician to do it for you. It's no fun getting zapped.

I tried the Monster AVS2000 for a few months. It is supposed to put out a constant 120V @ 60Hz. I used my accurate voltage meter on it's outlets and it always read at least 124 volts or more! I measured as high as 128v output. The variac inside it is also quite noisy, so unless you keep this thing in a sound insulated equipment rack, you will hear it "chug-chugging". Not something I want to hear while listening to music or movies. If you are considering purchasing it, I would "give it a listen" at the dealer first. I really saw no noticeable difference in the quality of my audio or video while using it, although YMMV. I sold it on eBay.

I then tried a Furman AR-1220. It is also a VR, but is not shielded (if it is, it is not shielded very well). Even though it was about 12-18" from my 2 amplifiers, it caused the transformers inside them to hum. It also produced its own audible hum which got louder as the load on the AR-1220 increased. I am not referring to hum produced through the speakers as in a ground loop situation, this is audible hum produced inside my components which had never occurred before. It did put out 120 volts, but would 'step' the output. Instead of keeping output right at 120v, it would add or subtract about 2 volts as a minimum. For example, when the voltage dropped to 118.5, it would then jump up to 120.5. Although it handled the power requirements of my entire system, the hum was intolerable (you could hear it throughout my theater) so I sent it back.

Now I am using an Exactpower EP15A. It produces no hum (or other anomalies for that matter). I left my voltage meter on it for a few hours, and the output ranged from 119.9v to 120.1 volts. Very precise. Most of the time it read 120.0. I have a pretty big system, and tried to overload the EP15A. When you do, it automatically switches to line (wall outlet) voltage. It did this seamlessly, no clicks, pops, or other aberrations, then it automatically switched back when I turned the volume down. Most AV systems do not draw over 15A, but like I said, my system is quite large (see image below), so you will most likely not experience this. The build quality is great and it comes with a 30 day, no questions asked return policy, no kidding! It is also one of very few products out there that produces a perfect sine wave output, and it does so very efficiently. I am very happy with mine, and it is staying in my rack.

It was also professionally reviewed in the Nov 2003 issue of "Widescreen Review", as well as two online reviews at Soundstage (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/exactpower_ep15a.htm), and at Secrets (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/exact-power-ep15-7-2002.html). All three reviews are highly favorable. I did see this unit new on Videogon below MSRP.

Finally, I added in a BPT BP-2.5 Ultra balanced power transformer. The combination of the two is readily apparent. Even my girlfriend noticed an improvement in sound and video quality without me even telling her what I had done to my system. I am by no means a "tweak-o-phile", but am sold on these two products big-time.

My Rack (http://home.earthlink.net/~ht_nut/images/My%20Rack.jpg)

Anyone recommend a good line conditioner for low powered applications?

Ideally used for a headphone amp combination. Just enough power for a CD Transport and Headphone Amp.

-Ed

Originally posted by Edwood
Anyone recommend a good line conditioner for low powered applications?

Ideally used for a headphone amp combination. Just enough power for a CD Transport and Headphone Amp.

-Ed

Ed,

Balanced Power Technology make some smaller units for the application that you are suggesting.

Also, Equitech has a 650 model which is reccommended for source components.

Jetlag:

Why do you use both an Exactpower and a BPT unit? Wouldn't either device by itself produce a theoretically perfect 60Hz AC sine wave?

-Cal

The EP15A puts out perfect filtered 120V, 60Hz sine wave AC power, and the BPT turns that into balanced power. The EP15A does not produce balanced power which is recommended for AV gear. The Exactpower SP15A does put out balanced power, but I wanted a unit capable of higher output amperage.

Jetlag,

Excellent review of several power conditioners. I've never been impressed with Monster's low end power strip type products, mostly junk IME/IMO. Interesting that you had problems with the AVS2000 too.

I bought an EP-15A last Winter after reading the same reviews you just referenced. I agree with everything you said about it and find your voltage monitoring report encouraging. Nice to know it's really doing what they claim! In my system its ability to store and instantly release current proved beneficial for the audio, no question. It also stabilized PQ a little on my DLP TV. The EP-15A did induce hum from my old power amp, which was 15 years old and not very high end. My new amp loves it however. Great product.

BTW, what benefits have you observed from the BPT? My Exact Power dealer actually told me not to bother much about balanced power, even though EP makes a power balancing unit that he could have sold me! He said the EP15A provides 95% of the benefits. Gotta love a dealer as honest as that.

How would a Brickwall AUD 8 outlet model plus a UPS with Automatic Voltage Regulation compare?

Would the EP15A be enough for a Samsung 467, a 300watt HTPC, Harman Kardon AVR85 Receiver, Zenith HDV420 HDTV STB, and a Velodyne HGS10. I am worried about the Velodyne HGS10, as that little monster subwoofer is supposedly rated at 3000 watt peak.

-Ed

this worked for me asI found it rated higher in spec to anythign monster branded that I co9uld afford. Comp USA carried it for 80$ when I bought mine: http://images.belkin.com/F9G1033-12/STD1_F9G1033-12.jpg (http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=&Section_Id=73&pcount=&Product_Id=130739)

A very important point for everyone to calculate:

Total up the current rating for each component in your system. If its over 15 amps then you should consider connecting some components to a second separate circuit.

The biggest current hogs in my system are sub-woofers. I've ordered the Definitive Technology Supercube Reference which needs 15 amps all buy itself!

As it is, my two Infinity 12" woofers each consume 10 amps! When I switched to two outlets (with a short extension cord through the wall) the sound and picture REALLY improved. I moved my GWWIII and the mono-subwoofer to it.

Experiment for better sound and picture. My findings you don't need to spend big bucks either. Try a second outlet first.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
Jetlag,

Excellent review of several power conditioners. I've never been impressed with Monster's low end power strip type products, mostly junk IME/IMO. Interesting that you had problems with the AVS2000 too.

I bought an EP-15A last Winter after reading the same reviews you just referenced. I agree with everything you said about it and find your voltage monitoring report encouraging. Nice to know it's really doing what they claim! In my system its ability to store and instantly release current proved beneficial for the audio, no question. It also stabilized PQ a little on my DLP TV. The EP-15A did induce hum from my old power amp, which was 15 years old and not very high end. My new amp loves it however. Great product.

BTW, what benefits have you observed from the BPT? My Exact Power dealer actually told me not to bother much about balanced power, even though EP makes a power balancing unit that he could have sold me! He said the EP15A provides 95% of the benefits. Gotta love a dealer as honest as that.

I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusions, Monster was created more for the masses.

I have had the same experience only in reverse. I purchased the BPT 3.5 unit with the Bybee quantum filter options. I notice an improvement in my video (increased contrast and sharpness as well as color saturation) as well as my audio (quieter noise floor and increased db). I am now considering an EP-15A but would need a 20 amp version for my system.
I was wondering what the addition of the EP-15A would do to my system?

I am considering another option which I mentioned earlier in this thread, the EP2000 by Environmental Potentials. Unfortunately or fortunately, it is not a plug and play device and is hardwired into the panel (whole house protection) and/or outlet (for circuit protection). It is a MOV based surge protection device. It seems to be used in more commercial environments. I am meeting with the company rep tomorrow to see if he can answer some of my questions/concerns.

Here is a super easy way to figure out maximum amperage draw. Clamp a meter around the hot wire feeding your system, then pick a source (DVD-A, SACD, or DVD) with loud demanding passages and crank it up! The ammeter will tell you exactly what the draw is. Keep in mind, you can not clamp it around a power cord, only the hot wire. I did it inside my CB panel. If you do this, please be careful. Also, the ratings on the back of your gear are usually exaggerated.

Sears (http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=03482180000) carries this one. I also saw one at Home Depot for $35 I believe. Mine is a more expensive model with a memory. It will remember peak values over time. For example, I can play an entire song/movie, then go back and see what the peak draw was.

My system peaked out at 16.1 amps, normal (constant) draw was closer to 10-12A. However, this was when my 2 QSC Audio PLX-3402 amplifiers (for my Buttkickers) were plugged into the EP15A, normally they are not. This was just a test to check out it's switching capabilities. The big power users in my system include:

7 x 170W receiver
7 x 120W amp
12 x 60W amp
1000W subwoofer

With these items plugged into the EP15A (as well as all of my low power components), and playing the DVD-A of Metallica's "Black" at maximum volume, I only managed to draw 9.75 amps peak.

I am now considering an EP-15A but would need a 20 amp version for my system.
I know that Exactpower is coming out with the EP20A, but it is not due out until after CES. My BPT 2.5 is a 20A transformer, and the EP15A has no problem whatsoever powering it. All of my gear (sans the Buttkicker amps, which are not exactly HI-FI - they just shake the floor) is then powered by the BPT transformer. I swear by both units!

Originally posted by Jetlag
I know that Exactpower is coming out with the EP20A, but it is not due out until after CES. My BPT 2.5 is a 20A transformer, and the EP15A has no problem whatsoever powering it. All of my gear (sans the Buttkicker amps, which are not exactly HI-FI - they just shake the floor) is then powered by the BPT transformer. I swear by both units!

Thanks for the info!

Jetlag, we don't all own meters. Some of us are even afraid of them! :)

CURRENT FOR DUMMIES
Divide maximum Watts listed on each device by 120 (volts). That's how many amps it will draw in the USA. Do this for all devices on a circuit and add them up. If it totals < 15 amps then one EP15A will be fine. If wattage on the equipment tag is exaggerated that just means you have a larger safety margin.

Fedreams,
As Jetlag reported, if occasional transient peaks exceed 15A the EP will float through them effortlessly. You'd probably never notice. You'd probably also be deaf!

If I had a current-hungry sub I'd put it on a seperate circuit from the rest of the system anyway, as softengr and Jetlag both suggested.

Audio speakers need DOUBLE the power for only a 3db increase in sound pressure. And many of like to exploit (to thrilling effect) the foundation shaking bass found in many movies.

Be careful not to measuring the current limited output of your A/C circuit.
A circuit breaker is a non-linear resistor and behaves badly as it approaches it rated capacity. There are tolerance errors too, including those from cheap clamp-on meters. Many other technical issues are involved here but they are mostly beyond the scope of this thread.

Many audio and video power supplies perform better with a near-zero source A/C impedance. Any current limiting or poor connections can have audible and sonic consequences.

What else that is connected to the A/C circuit matters in a big way, especially fans/motors, dimmers...

One outlet for cheap all-in-one systems is probably fine. But for the extended response high performance 5-7.1 systems try two+ outlets. Its cheap. Its just an extension cord away.

Again don't think that one person pushing one product will work miracles for a system. A system is only as good as its weakest link. Keep an open mind and experiment.

I have had an electrician wire a dedicated 20 amp circuit for my new HT system. Now I need to request some advice from you good folks on the surge protection and line filtering aspects.

Would the ZeroSurge 2R20HG non-MOV based surge protector followed with an ExactPower EP15A/EP20A line conditioner be a good combination? Do I really need the EP20A to take advantage of all the juice available at my dedicated 20 amp wall outlet or can the 15 amp version do it? Also, do I need to add a line balancer to the line conditioner? (ExactPower and BPT are the ones I am looking at, the BPT because they have a 20 amp version). Is there no single source solution?

Is there a point where this stuff becomes snake oil with the law of diminishing returns?

Thanks in advance.

hornmdt, I have a 15A dedicated HT circuit with a 15A Surgex unit for surge protection and an Exact Power EP15A. No balanced power.

There is no one box solution that I know of. OTOH, at least you get to pick the fixes that you need for your situation.

Our Surgex is there strictly for protection, as your ZeroSurge would be. That's essential. If your HT gear is good enough for a dedicated circuit then I presume it's worth protecting properly.

In our system, the EP15A gave the power amp (240W x 2) an audible leg up on low bass and very dynamic passages. The system is audibly better with the EP15A in the circuit. It also made the picture on our Sammy DLP slightly more stable. I probably wouldn't have bought it just for the PQ benefits. The audio benefits are larger and we're audiophiles much more than videophiles anyway. If your system needs a 20A line, I suppose 'd wait for the EP20A.

As far as balanced power goes, my EP dealer actually sort of talked me OUT of buying it. His opinion was that the EP15A provided at least 90% of the benefit. Maybe someone with both can chime in and tell us what further benefits balanced power provides above and beyond the EP15A.

The EP15 does a great job in cleaning up the voltage signal. Adding a balanced power unit will provide you with additional improvement to your system. How much? That depends on you system and your wallet. I have the BPT 3.5 unit and it does a make a noticeable improvement in both audio and video.

As you are aware, there are other balanced power units out there which are available. Equitech has a new replacement for the Q650 which will be capable of handling a higher load. According to Equitech, the use a bifilar wound tranformer (their patent), which is suppose to provide even separation of the power. This may be worth checking out.

ok - I went ahead and placed an order for the ZeroSurge 2R20HG. I guess my next question is whether I can bypass the EP15A/20A entirely and go straight to the BPT 3.5 Power Balancer? Would there be any down side in doing it that way?

Thanks!

No, there wouldn't be any downside. It would be safe to order one piece at a time and see if you like the results rather than plunk down a small fortune. If you have a dealer close by who has the EP15, maybe you could "borrow" it for a few days to see if there are any significant advantages to using it in you system.

No problem doing it that way, as Fedreams said.

Exact Power offers a 30-day "no questions asked" return policy, a home trial in effect. I know my dealer honors that. He even offers that on Nordost cables, and burns them in for free as well. I've bought from him on four occasions and his service has been topnotch. PM me if you want details.

OK...I've just spent the past hour or so reading through the entire thread. I think I'm only slightly more enlightened. More confused than anything. I have on order a Monster HTS5100 Signature Series. Now I am rethinking that. But I've read within that people plug these units (or higher end strips) into the SM units like the EP15A or the Brickwall. What is the advantage of doing so? My plan was to buy a Brickwall or Adcom and use that alone, but now I'm even questioning that. I doubt that I will go with an EP, as they are a bit beyond my price point. The Brickwall and the Adcom are right there, however.

Originally posted by kanderna
OK...I've just spent the past hour or so reading through the entire thread. I think I'm only slightly more enlightened. More confused than anything. I have on order a Monster HTS5100 Signature Series. Now I am rethinking that. But I've read within that people plug these units (or higher end strips) into the SM units like the EP15A or the Brickwall. What is the advantage of doing so? My plan was to buy a Brickwall or Adcom and use that alone, but now I'm even questioning that. I doubt that I will go with an EP, as they are a bit beyond my price point. The Brickwall and the Adcom are right there, however.

I am not sure if I am qualified to "clear up" or "enlighten".
The two units you mentioned EP15A and Brickwall are to different units.
The Brickwall from my understanding (since I don't own one) is a surge suppressor used to protect your equipment from power surges. The EP15A is a voltage regulator, which cleans up the A/C sine wave and provides a constant current at 120 volts.

If you are looking to protect your equipment, get a surge suppressor unit. If you are looking to improve your audio or video in any way, it depends on your bank account. There are numerous units which claim to improve the audio and/or video aspect of your system.

It is like chasing a rainbow for the pot of gold. It should be clear as mud by now.

Ah, that makes sense. Figured there was something that I was missing. I am definitely looking to protect. The Brickwall and the Adcom claim to provide some filtering...can anyone attest to this? What will I be losing (besides the cool look) if I forego the Monster unit? If I am losing something, would I be better suited to step down with the Monster unit (perhaps the 2600) and plug that into the Brickwall? Thanks again.

Does anyone know the difference between the Adcom 315 and the 615 besides price. The website was no help and onecall says that they both have 8 outlets. Thanks for the help :D

Originally posted by DooDoo
Does anyone know the difference between the Adcom 315 and the 615 besides price. The website was no help and onecall says that they both have 8 outlets. Thanks for the help :D

The 615 has two sets of coax and phone jack while the 315 has one set.

It also looks like the 615 has two "dedicated" high current outlets. They can handle 1500 watts. The remaining outles can handle the remaining 300 watts.

The 615 has adjustable delays, but they are inside the unit, and are supposed to be adjusted by an authrized Adcom ddealer.

Links to the owner's manuals:

http://www.adcom.com/pdfs/ace_615manual.pdf

http://www.adcom.com/pdfs/ace315manual.pdf

Hope this helps :)

I've pretty much decided to go with the Adcom ACE-315 for my home theatre. (My audiophile system will probably just get a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet and Juice Bar as most of my audio components have wicked power supplies.) Anyway I was searching for info on the Adcom and found this article which is saying the same thing as Doug Deacon!

http://www.digitaltechonline.com/surgeprotect.asp

Stefan,

Thanks for the compliment, but I get no credit. That's actually one of the articles that got me started on this. IOW, you've discovered my original source! You get no points however, that same link is in my post. ;)

Doug

Can someone PM me with a good price on the Brick Wall surge protectors?

I have a friend that works for Harman International and he keeps telling me not to waste my money on something like the Exact Power EP15A if I need voltage regulation (which is almost a must here in California) and go for one of the much less expensive Tripp Lite models instead - like the LCR2400.

Is this sound advice (no pun intended) or does he not know as much as he thinks he does. Anyone know of any comparisons I could check out?

Thanks,
Ken

All VRs are not created equal, especially when it comes to Audio/Video. Most are not shielded (or not shielded very well) and cause EMI/RFI interference throughout your audio system due to the huge magnetic field produced by them (see my review of the Furmann AR1220 earlier in this thread). Also, the Tripplite does NOT correct the incoming power and change it into a perfect sinewave. I'm not sure of it's other capabilities, but does it have specific circuitry for removing noise from the AC as most high quality AV dedicated VRs do? I would also be interested in seeing how quiet the unit is under load. The Furmann made a lot of noise as did the Monster AVS2000.

Some very good points. The Tripp Lite does provide EMI/RFI noise filtering and will handle a 20 amp load, but I guess there is no way to know how noisey the unit is without trying it out first. I think I'll wait and see how the new Empower units stack up before I buy anything.

Thanks for your help.

Ken

Ken, AFAIK Tripplite and other UPS-type VR's regulate voltage after the fact. They read the incoming voltage and then bump it up/down, but with a (possibly slight) time delay between reading and correction.

The Exact Power and P S Audio units are the only ones I know of that correct voltage in real time.

The EP does this with an inline boost/buck transformer coupled to a reference sinewave. Every sinewave that comes in, however damaged and however over/under amplitude, is corrected in real time and goes out of the EP clean.

The P S Audio units convert incoming AC to DC, then regenerate pure, voltage stable AC from scratch. This is theoretically the cleanest approach, but you pay a big price in inefficiency. The P S Audio units only output around 50% of the incoming wattage as outbound wattage, the rest of the incoming wattage is wasted as heat.

I chose the EP since it can provide a full 1800 watts very efficiently. To get that from P S Audio units would cost about the same for the equipemnt, but would end up costing far more for electricity due to the heat wastage.

I tried hooking up a PS Audio P300 to my Sammy 467. Wow, what a difference. I could've sworn the set got reset to gamma 4 (I have it at 2) but without the blown out highlights and grayer blacks. I had my Sammy 467 hooked up to a Belkin Universal UPS (with AVR) and then into a Brickwall Surge Suppressor. I will have to say that the differences are much more dramatic for anything analog. My HDTV STB ouputs to the RGB (PC) input on the 467. I saw a much larger differnce there. I have a HTPC hooked up to the DVI input. The differences were more subtle. So if you have an all digital path, you will not benefit as greatly.

It was not to be, however. Apparently the square sine wave a UPS puts out is pretty bad. The P300 was getting insanely hot. So it is not a good idea to hook up a PS Audio Power Plant to a UPS. I wish they made a battery pack upgrade so that I could use it with the Sammy 467 without worrying about those occassional circuit breaker trip and black out.

-Ed

I will be getting a UPS for my GWII LCD (and a future HD Tivo). So I need a surge protector/voltage regulator/line conditioner (and coaxial, if possible) that can work in tandem w/ the UPS.

The UPS should put out a 'true sinewave'?

I see Brickwalls work w/ a UPS, but what about Zero Surge, Adcom, SurgeX, and Exactpower?

BTW, when using a UPS and a surge protector, which one plugs into the wall?

Wall-->Surge Suppressor-->UPS-->Your Stuff

Now, use a good Surge Suppressor, mind you.

UPS's that claim to put a "true sinewave" are not putting out very good one. I guess a square sine wave is still technically a sinewave.

-Ed

I guess a square sine wave is still technically a sinewave.
Nope. A "square sine wave" would theoretically be composed of an infinite number of sine waves.

Tom
<><

is that why most UPS manufacturers list that the output is a "modified" or "simulated" sine wave?

-Ed

Ed, that I don't know.

Tom
<><

Originally posted by Edwood
is that why most UPS manufacturers list that the outpu is a "modified" or "simulated" sine wave?

-Ed

I haven't seen the specific claim you mention, but "many" UPSs use a resonant eletromagnetic circuit that takes energy from the incoming power line and then regenerates the output voltage "from scratch".

I have been advised that most UPS's would create, in A/V, problems due to wave modification.....AND THAT VOLTAGE REG. SHOULD BE A SEPERATE UNIT FROM A SURGE BECAUSE OF NOISE/INTERFERANCE, ETC..........

I've ordered all my Brickwalls from www.sellcom.com

-Ed

If a UPS puts out a square wave instead of a sine wave, I'd keep it as far from my audio system as possible. Don't know what it would do to video but it would sound like c*%p. :)

If you're running an HTPC some kind of backup power for that component (only) would be wise. Otherwise why have a UPS in an HT setup? An Exact Power or P S Audio does a much better job of voltage regulation, and produces the genuine, clean sine wave your AV equipment likes to see.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
If you're running an HTPC some kind of backup power for that component (only) would be wise. Otherwise why have a UPS in an HT setup? An Exact Power or P S Audio does a much better job of voltage regulation, and produces the genuine, clean sine wave your AV equipment likes to see.
The Sony GWII LCD needs to run its fan for about two minutes after if it is powered of; this is not possible if there is a power failure. And I read that the Tivo doesn't like being abruptly powered off.

How about setting up my system like this:
Wall-->Surge Suppressor-->UPS-->TV and Tivo
....................................\-->All other HT components

The TV and Tivo would be plugged into the 'battery-back-up' outlets on the UPS, then the Surge suppressor.
The other HT components would bypass the UPS and go directly into the Surge Suppressor.

If I understand correctly, the other HT cmpnts. could go through the 'Surge only' outlets in the UPS, and then to the Surge Suppressor; only if it has enough 'surge-only' outlets, and if the UPS uses a sinewave.

Is this all correct?

It's exactly the way I'm planning to do it.

I did this:

Wall-->Brickwall Surge Suppressor-->Belkin Universal UPS-->PS Audio P300-->Samsung HLN467W + HTPC.

Not recommended, though. The P300 got blazing hot. But man O man, did the picture look good. Especially HDTV through the PC (VGA) input.

Power conditioning/filtering is less noticeable with all digital paths, though. So if you use DVI, it will be more subtle.

Now my setup is this:

Wall-->Brickwall Surge Suppressor-->Belkin Universal UPS-->Samsung HLN467W + HTPC.

-Ed

Originally posted by Edwood
Now my setup is this:

Wall-->Brickwall Surge Suppressor-->Belkin Universal UPS-->Samsung HLN467W + HTPC.
Did you plug the rest of your HT (HD, DVD, Audio Rec., CD) directly into the Brickwall or do you have enough 'surge-only' outlets in the UPS? More importantly, does it matter, either way? I think I would just bypass the UPS.

Still trying to decide here; what made you choose the Brickwall and Belkin? Which ones did you get?

I've had an API power wedge 114 feeding my system for the last 6 years. I am not familiar with MOV "failure" over time. I'm curious why I have seen no mention of anyone using a Power Wedge here. Is anyone else here using an API conditioner? This was quite the rage in the audio industry when I bought mine.

Originally posted by QZ1
Did you plug the rest of your HT (HD, DVD, Audio Rec., CD) directly into the Brickwall or do you have enough 'surge-only' outlets in the UPS? More importantly, does it matter, either way? I think I would just bypass the UPS.

Still trying to decide here; what made you choose the Brickwall and Belkin? Which ones did you get?

I plug only the TV and HTPC into the battery backup outlets on the Belkin UPS. Everything else is plugged into the Brickwall. I have the 8 outlet Audiophile version Brickwall.

I picked the Brickwall because it is one of the best surge protectors that does not wear out over time. I did have at least two MOV based surge suppressors that stopped working. These ones at least had indicator lights. Otherwise I would not have known.

I did however find one problem with the Brickwall. I have found it to limit the dynamics in my audio system. It is subtle but it definitely compresses the soundstage. Many others have confirmed this. I have not done an A/B comparison on my Sammy 467yet.

I may end up trying a PS Audio Ultimate outlet or maybe a Power Plant, they both have a surge suppressor they call "Tranzorbers" that do not wear out. Unfortunately, I found their cheapest Power Plant the P300 to get way too hot when plugged into a UPS. So using a PS Audio Powerplant would not allow the use a of a UPS. Which sucks, because the Sammy 467 had noticeably improved picture on the P300.

-Ed

Ed,

Interesting that the Brickwall limits dynamics in your system. :( Others have reported the same, as you mentioned.

FWIW my Surgex definitely does not do that. Or perhaps the current reserve in my Exact Power makes up for it? At any rate I have no dynamic compression in my system at all. :)

To choose a UPS, I add my TV and a future Tivo and I get 260W, (maybe a bit more, depending on HD Tivo.)

I am thinking of getting at least a 540W UPS, for at least 15 min. runtime, probably 20, is that a good idea?

Is anybody using any of the other SM surge supressors with a UPS?

Do I need to check the wattages of these SM units or can they handle more than enough wattage?

I'm trying to ensure that my equipment will have a <=15A draw before I buy a 15A brickwall (or zero surge).

Here is the equipment that will be ultimately setup:
-Panasonic DVD-S35k = 14W, 0.1A
-sony GWIII 50" = 240W, 2A
-Pioneer VSX-45tx = 600W, 5A
-SVS 25-31PCi = 325W amp, so 2.7A?
-Motoroal DCT-5100 cable box = back panel says "4A max"

Questions:
1) SVS sub has a 325Watt amp, so do I just divide that by 120 to get the amperage?

2) I have a hard time believing that the Motorola STB is 4A, or 480W. But maybe I'm wrong.. I just figured it wouldn't be as much as my receiver?

3) I'm assuming I don't need to pay attention to the speakers since they are powered by the receiver. Is this correct?


So assuming the above #'s are correct and I don't need to factor in speakers, looks like I have just under 15A in total. So I should be safe with a 15A brickwall, correct?

My plan was to connect the brickwall to the wall, plug in a 1 outlet APC UPS to one jack and plug in my sony GWIII into it. I've heard it doesn't like sudden power losses, and will also give the fan time to cool off the internals before it loses complete power. In the other outlets of the brickwall, i was just going to connect all my other components. Is this a good plan?

bobby_t1,

1) Correct

2) I have a hard time believing that also! Pretty weird. I'd guess that spec includes a very large safety margin, but I'm only guessing.

3) Correct

Your intended hookup seems fine, though I'd A/B the GWIII with/without the UPS to see if it affects PQ.

If your equipment is approaching 15A, you may want to consider a 20A dedicated circuit and 20A Brickwall. As 'softengr' explained a page or two ago, pushing near the capacity of the breaker may result in audible/visible distortions. A breaker does not pass perfectly clean power right up to the point where it trips, its performance deteriorates as current approaches the tripping level. In addition, a 15A Brickwall may audibly compress dynamics when pushed near its limit. I'm not if there's any way to predict this. Every system is different. If you want to try a 15A setup first, buy the Brickwall with a trial period so you can send it back for credit against a 20A model if necessary.

Doug

ANy thoughts on the Newpoint PowerBlocker 2? It supposedly has a very fast circuit breaker. I picked one up at Fry's today for $30.


Newpoint's premier product, the Power Blocker 2 ($79.99 SRP) includes a patented circuit breaker technology to shut down current within 2 milliseconds in a surge event, clamping at 130V and preventing damage from subsequent surges by completely disconnecting the path until reset. To back up its claims, Power Sentry offers an unlimited warranty on connected equipment for the PB2. "Our return rate is less than 1 percent," noted Schaffner.


extracted from here:
http://www.dealerscope.com/doc/278947304011266.bsp

Originally posted by singersay
ANy thoughts on the Newpoint PowerBlocker 2? It supposedly has a very fast circuit breaker. I picked one up at Fry's today for $30.


Newpoint's premier product, the Power Blocker 2 ($79.99 SRP) includes a patented circuit breaker technology to shut down current within 2 milliseconds in a surge event, clamping at 130V and preventing damage from subsequent surges by completely disconnecting the path until reset. To back up its claims, Power Sentry offers an unlimited warranty on connected equipment for the PB2. "Our return rate is less than 1 percent," noted Schaffner.


extracted from here:
http://www.dealerscope.com/doc/278947304011266.bsp

Its probably an MOV-based design and therefor subject to failure over time.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
My plan was to connect the brickwall to the wall, plug in a 1 outlet APC UPS to one jack and plug in my sony GWIII into it
What is the item no. for this UPS, I don't see it on APC's site.

A one outlet UPS probably would just have enough runtime for a GWIII, if it does. I have a GWII, which uses 220W, and the fan stays on for about 2 mins. after powering off.

Originally posted by QZ1
What is the item no. for this UPS, I don't see it on APC's site.

A one outlet UPS probably would just have enough runtime for a GWIII, if it does. I have a GWII, which uses 220W, and the fan stays on for about 2 mins. after powering off.

I just pulled the APC UPS out of the closet (it's been sitting in there for about 3 years).

It is a Back-UPS 200 (model # BK200). On the back it says 130W! I'm guessing since my TV says 220W on the rear, that either:

1) this UPS isn't big enough for my TV
or
2) the UPS will be fine for my TV, except that my runtime will be less than 1/2 what is stated by the manufacturer

which is it?

Originally posted by singersay
ANy thoughts on the Newpoint PowerBlocker 2? It supposedly has a very fast circuit breaker. I picked one up at Fry's today for $30.
Originally posted by DooDoo
Its probably an MOV-based design and therefor subject to failure over time.
If it works by means of a circuit breaker then it's not MOV based. MOV's shunt excess current to ground. Once that happens, a circuit breaker later in the circuit would see nothing to make it trip.

That said, no circuit breaker is fast enough to provide complete protection. 2 ms is a very long time. Whether it's the right choice to protect your HT or stereo depends on the value of your gear and your attitude toward risk management. For my gear it wouldn't be a sensible choice, but YMMV of course.

So assuming the above #'s are correct and I don't need to factor in speakers, looks like I have just under 15A in total. So I should be safe with a 15A brickwall, correct?

I would think so, and realize that much of the equipment (esp. the amp and subwoofer) will pull nowhere close to that amount of power unless on at absolute maximum volume. The cable box is clearly not drawing 4A either -- I'd bet it's closer to 0.4A. Even at a max draw of 13.8A you have nearly a 10% buffer, which should be more than adequate for avoiding any issues with the breaker.

Properly installing and running a 20A line to an existing outlet is not trivial or cheap -- even if you do it yourself. Very few people actually need anything bigger than a 15A circuit.

Just yesterday, I ordered Monter's HTPS7000 power line conditioner. Does anyone in this thread recommend this unit? I mostly want to improve the video/audio quality of my equipment.

Also, rather than getting Monter's AVS2000 power regulator, will the ExactPower EP15A work will with the HTPS7000? Is it necessary?

The EP15A will work with the HTPS7000 (although I am not familiar with Monster's units). The EP just regulates the voltage so that you get a contant voltage.

In discussions with some dealers the EP works well with the BPT products.

I just ordered an 8 outlet version of the brickwall for yesterday for sellcom.com! yipeee!

bobby_t1,

Don't forget to factor in the amperage draw of the UPS itself. If it's plugged into the Brickwall it's part of the load on the circuit. In general though, I agree with Zathrus.

I have a APC BACK-UPS (model BK200). It is rated for 130W. Since my LCD RPTV is 220W max, can I use it with this UPS? It'll either not be compatible at all, or else the UPS's runtime will be cut in half since the TV draws nearly double the rated wattage. Whch is it?

Just yesterday, I ordered Monter's HTPS7000 power line conditioner. Does anyone in this thread recommend this unit? I mostly want to improve the video/audio quality of my equipment.

Also, rather than getting Monter's AVS2000 power regulator, will the ExactPower EP15A work will with the HTPS7000? Is it necessary?

I have a surge problem in my new home. I get a snap/pop out of my speakers when my bar fridge's compressor kicks in or the deep freeze. My HT is setup in the basement. I purchased a monster powerbar 1100, it did not eliminate the snap/pop so I returned it. Do you guys think that a brickwall device would solve my problem? I had an electrician over to check the panel out and everything appears to be top notch. I have a Pioneer VSX-D608, Toshiba 40H80, Panasonic RP-82, Toshiba DST3000, Exvu 6000 plugged in. My setup did not have this problem in my old house.

That crack of static is traveling through the air not your electrical lines. The relays on many items like compressors, well pumps, heater actually spark as they switch. This is like an old spark gap generator and is more like an RF signal burst. This is very difficult to resolve and may not be cost effective. If the pop is subtle, you may have to live with it. If its at damaging levels you may have to replace parts/the fridge. Maybe run a separate electrical line to the fridge.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
Don't forget to factor in the amperage draw of the UPS itself. If it's plugged into the Brickwall it's part of the load on the circuit. In general though, I agree with Zathrus.
Could you explain this point?
If I have something plugged into a UPS, then to the Surge Suppressor, it is just functioning as a pass-through, AFAIK. (except in battery mode, which uses no electricity). I must be missing something here.

The UPS specs, I have looked at, show 'VA'. Does 100 VA = 1 A?
So if I get too powerful a UPS, it won't work with the surge protectors we are discussing?

Originally posted by Barrybud
That crack of static is traveling through the air not your electrical lines. The relays on many items like compressors, well pumps, heater actually spark as they switch. This is like an old spark gap generator and is more like an RF signal burst. This is very difficult to resolve and may not be cost effective. If the pop is subtle, you may have to live with it. If its at damaging levels you may have to replace parts/the fridge. Maybe run a separate electrical line to the fridge.

To confirm that it's RF, take a cheapo handheld transistor radio and hold it near the fridge. The spark should sound louder the nearer you are.

One fix might be some copper screening cut to fit around the source of the spark, grounded to the chassis of the fridge or to a cold water pipe.

The radio should help you nail down the precise location of the spark source.

Thanks for the input guys. Ill have to go and purchase a cheap transistor radio and try that. In the mean time i decided to unplug the fridge. But now I notice that I can hear it snap when the washing machine turns on or a change in settings AND I can hear it when the furnace kicks in. Getting frustrated here! Do you figure that all of those are RF related??

Could well be line (AC) related. There are inexpensive AC line noise filters. I know nothing about Monster Powerbar technology, but the rule of thumb on keeping noise from propagating via power lines is "Use either iron or capacitance". That means either get one heavy 1:1 transformer, perhaps with a tuned circuit built in, or get some good silver mica capacitors to put across the AC line both at the sources and at the system.

reposting my question again:

I have a APC BACK-UPS (model BK200). It is rated for 130W according to the backpanel. Since my LCD RPTV is 220W max, can I use it with this UPS?

It'll either:

(1) not be compatible at all, OR

(2) The TV is compatible with the UPS but the runtime will be cut in half since the TV draws nearly double the rated wattage.

Which is it?

bobby_t1,

Plugging that TV into that UPS may well damage or even destroy the UPS. The TV wants to draw current at 2x the rate the battery in the UPS is designed to deliver it. Even if the UPS can deliver what the TV demands (doubtful), discharging the battery faster than it was designed to be discharged may damage it.

I'd get a UPS designed for the load you're going to plug into it.

Doug, thanks for the heads up. I definitely won't plug the TV into this UPS then.

Out of curiosity, my lights are dimming in my house every so often. The brickwall prevents damage from these brownouts to devices plugged into them, right?

No. The Brickwall does nothing about brownouts, which represent instances of UNDERvoltage. The Brickwall and the other surge protectors mentioned in my signature link only prevent OVERvoltages.

We have exactly the same problem here in CT. If you have frequent brownouts you need a device that provides an instantaneous current reserve and real-time voltage regulation.

AFAIK only two companies offer this: P. S. Audio and Exact Power. I chose the ExactPower and it works flawlessly. We have brownouts practically every other day but the stereo and HT truly never notice. The EP takes up the slack seamlessly. The P. S. Audio powerplants are great units too, but their brute force approach makes them quite expensive to operate. The EP is a marvel of efficient engineering design. Highly recommended.

where to get one of these Exact Power units for a reasonable price? My brickwall order was alreayd placed and shipped.

In a quick search I did, the EP15A units (the cheapest one EP makes?) it over $1500. That is freakin nuts. Additionally, there is not room for this in my cabinet as I'm already full with my DVD, Digital STB, Replay and VCR. No way I can fit it in.

Is there a more cost effective way of protecting against brownouts? From this thread, we know that majority of Uninterruptible Power Supplies (UPS) are MOV-based which is bad for surges. This explains why we'd buy a Brickwall, Adcom, Zero Surge unit(s).

But it seems that buying an Exact Power unit may be complete overkill? Sure I want to protect against brownouts, but couldn't I get off much cheaper by buying a line-interactive UPS and doing this:

Plug the UPS into the wall, then the Brickwall into the UPS. Even if the UPS surge protection fails (which we know it eventually will), the Brickwall will protect everything anyways. Assuming the UPS battery still functions, I should be able to protect against brownouts too.

What am I missing here? Sure I don't get the "power conditioning" the Exact Power units give, but this seems like it'd work?

FYI -- Dell has 40% off UPS unit until December 27th, 2003 through this link:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/sna.aspx?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~topic=q4wk6_snp_wkend1

Keep in mind that UPS's put out a horrible quality sine wave. It is usually a square sine wave. That's completely OK for computers, but leaves much to be desired. The primary purpose of a UPS for my Sammy 467 is to be able to properly shut down the TV when the power goes out, which for me is quite frequent due to circuit breakers tripping. (crappy apt power).

I have tried hooking up my PS Audio P300 into a 1200 VA Belkin UPS. It looked awesome, but the damn P300 was getting insanely hot. It wasn't overheating, but too hot for my comfort. The P300 was apparently working too hard to correct the crappy AC coming out of the UPS.

It's a shame, because the improvement in PQ was rather dramatic, especially for HDTV thru the PC (VGA) input.

-Ed

I've been using the Exactpower for a couple of months now, handles brown-outs beautifully. Paid $1700 for it delivered but for me it has been worth every penny.

Yeah, but unfortunately no power conditioner or regenerator will do squat for a power blackout. Not even a short one.

How bad is it really for Rear projection TV's, particularly DLP sets like Samsungs, to have the power cut off suddenly like in a power blackout?

-Ed

Originally posted by Edwood
Yeah, but unfortunately no power conditioner or regenerator will do squat for a power blackout. Not even a short one.

How bad is it really for Rear projection TV's, particularly DLP sets like Samsungs, to have the power cut off suddenly like in a power blackout?
How important is unknown; but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, Sony LCDs and Samsung DLPs are supposed to run the fan for about two minutes, after powering off, in order to cool off the TV.

Originally posted by Doug Deacon
Don't forget to factor in the amperage draw of the UPS itself. If it's plugged into the Brickwall it's part of the load on the circuit. In general though, I agree with Zathrus.
Doug,

If I have something plugged into a UPS, then to the Surge Suppressor, isn't it just functioning as a pass-through? (except in battery mode, which uses no electricity).

Or Are you referring to the draw of the items plugged into the UPS then to the Surge Suppressor?
Or am I missing something here?

BTW, looking at UPS specs, they show 'VA'.
Does 100 VA = 1 A?

Originally posted by QZ1
Doug,

If I have something plugged into a UPS, then to the Surge Suppressor, isn't it just functioning as a pass-through? (except in battery mode, which uses no electricity).

Or Are you referring to the draw of the items plugged into the UPS then to the Surge Suppressor?
Or am I missing something here?

BTW, looking at UPS specs, they show 'VA'.
Does 100 VA = 1 A?

I'd like to know the answer to these 2 questions as well (pass-through and VA = A?)

"VA" = Volt Ampere = approx. a watt for non-inductive, non-capacitative loads.

So, at 120 volts, 1 A would be 120 watts or about 120 VA.

Anybody want to recommend a dealer for the Exact Power EP15A? I'm more concerned with getting good service over getting the best price so keep that in mind if you want to make a suggestion. If you're not comfortable posting this info publicly then shoot me a PM.

Thanks,
Ken

Originally posted by Hyralak
I have a surge problem in my new home. I get a snap/pop out of my speakers when ...

Hyralak,
I too have the same problem in my home. I purchased the Monster Power HTS 3600 as I was told that it would eliminate my problem...IT DID NOT.
Please keep us updated as to any possible solutions. Thanks-vinnyvin_m

Ken, I PM'd you.

if you want to hear EMI tune the cheap transistor radio to AM and crank it all the way to the highest possible setting on the dial. Wave the radio around and near suspicious items. You will be amazed how much interference some items put out.

-Ed

Originally posted by roblake
"VA" = Volt Ampere = approx. a watt for non-inductive, non-capacitative loads.

So, at 120 volts, 1 A would be 120 watts or about 120 VA.
Okay, in the US we use 120V, but reading UPS specs, 600W = 1000VA.

So I wonder how to figure out what Amperage the UPS draws?

And, I still would like to know why the UPS draws anything? Isn't it just a pass-through to the Surge Suppressor?