Originally posted by Geof
Might be interesting especially for the [now] 15 of you who can actually verify they transmit digitally....any chance you can talk Mr. Craddock into moving their antenna :)

Working on it, but pretty doubtful...they seem to be pretty set in stone to wait until LCG2 gets shot down. Rick did say that it would probably cost them $200k-$300k to move to the top of Republic, but he didn't elaborate on why it would cost that much. There was a mention of the emails being read...maybe enough of them might make a difference. I'm also working on him to get 17.1 unstretched...although that looks kind of doubtful as well.

KMGH? Let me know when I can pick up their signal. Then I might be interested in how they are doing it. Right now I don't live in the 2 block radius coverage area, as far as I am concerned that is an amateur TV station, not a real one!

Originally posted by markdl
Working on it, but pretty doubtful...they seem to be pretty set in stone to wait until LCG2 gets shot down. Rick did say that it would probably cost them $200k-$300k to move to the top of Republic, but he didn't elaborate on why it would cost that much. There was a mention of the emails being read...maybe enough of them might make a difference. I'm also working on him to get 17.1 unstretched...although that looks kind of doubtful as well. So in the meantime they hide behind the farce of "meeting the FCC requirements". They're a friggen joke and all I can say is I hope they get some very negative PR about this sometime down the road (not that I expect the Bronco's to be in the SB again till they bench/waive Greasy).

I won't question their expense estimate but gather they must be thinking that the LCG2 outcome will be known early next year (wasn't it posted earlier that they had decided to wait until they could "get a read" on the LCG2 next year?). That coupled with the GM's apparent disbelief that it will be 2 years from now before they get on the air IF LCG2 is approved makes me wonder if they shouldn't have the air in the building analyzed to determined why no one there wishes to face reality.

The sad and really sorry story is that LCG2 will likely be rejected (there's probably some Vegas action on that) and we'll have to wait another 2 years (beyond the rejection - 3 years from now) before anything gets done.

JohnJr....I have the tools but where are we going to get the damn pesky "flange" :)

Huh...wow. No HDNet posts yet, so I'll be the first I guess.

The HDNet operation is a real class act. They do amazing stuff there with less than half the equipment that we saw at KCNC or even at KRMA. We started off in the control room, then went into a non-linear edit bay and a linear edit bay, then ended the tour by walking through one of their production trucks. I don't remember at this point all of the details that were talked about, but they answered all of the questions that we asked (although some of them were just with a grin and a *cough* no comment). HDNet-1, -2, and -3 are coming, but they don't know what the content will be yet. They'd love to get these 3 channels onto Dish Network, but they will probably roll out on cable systems first, and they are trying to get them as a package for $12.95 a month. They provide a lot of equipment and assistence for the production of HD material. They hire primarily local crews at the sites they do sports broadcasts from.

More later...football's starting up again. It was a good time. Thanks to John for putting it together!

May I suggest that someone post a thorough review of the tour in the HDTV programming section. I am sure that there are a lot of people who would be interested but would not know to look here. I would have been there but I had to work today. :mad: Did anybody ask if the new channels will be available by C-Band dish?

Roy

Great meeting you guys and thanks for arranging the tour! I am looking forward to the next one!

I probably said it 10 times tonight, but I hope Dish picks up HD net.

The folks at HD Net really know their stuff and it looks like they really enjoy what they do!

I think the networks could learn a lot from them about how to do HD sports.

I am going to be out of town the rest of the week, but I look forward to reading comments from the rest of you.

Originally posted by royrose
Did anybody ask if the new channels will be available by C-Band dish?

Roy

Yep! They said they do not have it set up at this time as they do not believe that Motorola Digicipher is as clean as their original signal. (Of course they inferred, but would not state, that Direct TV does not deliver their signal uncompressed or as clean as when it leaves their place either). They also complained about Motorola wanting their gear in the HDNet studios and of course they would not go along. All that being said, they then mentioned they talked to Motorola today, and are still looking into the possibility. A lot of talk, not much definitive, sorry. Since they seem to be anxious to get as many viewers as possible, and talked about the 3 channels being on cable probably before they are on Direct or Dish, I still wouldn't rule out Digicipher since most of the cablecos get their signal that way anyway. I think they are just learning what the rest of us C-Banders already know, Motorola is a ROYAL PAIN to work with.

JM,

I can't believe that they would be unhappy with the quality of a DCII signal. Have they seen DiscoveryHD? I have never seen anything better including first generation direct from satellite mpeg2/dvb HD signals. Also, DCII is the most secure format that would not require cable companies to get new equipment. I do agree about Motorola being a pain. The person responsible for these negotiations probably also runs the mail room and emptys the trash. Will they do another tour sometime?

Roy

They mentioned that Motorola wanted to get their gear in the control room, and I am betting that Motorola is trying to get them to convert over to Digicipher on all their gear as a part of the deal. It sounds like something the Motorola folks would do (i.e. demand exclusivity in exchange for their service). I agree that I don't see the huge difference in quality, but can't get in to a lot of detail in this forum as to why. The stuff I have seen on Discovery that was shot in HD looks awful good too. Hard to judge totally though as Discovery and HBO etc. haven't done any live telecasts to really say for sure which is really better. If you ever have watched ASCN for a live NBA basketball game (Digicipher) it looked pretty damn good to me though. They also didn't sound too thrilled with what Direct TV does to their signal (though they wouldn't come out and say why for obvious reasons). I think the HDNet engineers are some real purists in terms of quality, and anything that degrades or modifies their signal is 'unacceptable' to them.

**************
ANNOUNCMENT

Hey folks, since no one here took the opportunity to boast a bit, I posted a thread on the programming area about our tour. I have to do some real work today so I don't have time to spend a lot of time writing there so how about some of you contributing to the thread and discussions of what we saw and heard yesterday. Obviously no one in this forum will ever be jealous of our OTA reception capabilities, so this may be our only chance to give our area a little pub. How about it folks, let's see some comments in that thread. Make them realize being in Denver is not always a bad thing in the HD world.

Thanks again to John and HDNet for setting up the tour for us! Nice meeting and seeing everyone again. For the record we had 12 people show up and the tour lasted close to two hours. The people (and dog) at HDNet were all great and very enthusiastic. I'll post any other comments I have in the other thread for the benefit of all.

Here's a direct link to JM's other thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180099

-John

John Jr.
Thanks for the post with the thread, I had to run to a meeting and didn't have the time do get it all together.

For all
I sent a gracious thank you note to the HDNet folks this morning from the whole group, but if any of you want to send an email thanks on your own, go to the HDNet web page for contact information. Glenn Moore was our host and Rachael Weaver was the program director with the cool dog. Angela Seda who was unable to meet us, was the person who originally set up our meeting with them and helped insure we got there when one of the remote trucks was available.

Now back to my meetings today.

I just posted my summary of the tour over on the other thread for those that are interested.

-John

Originally posted by markdl
Rick [KMGH Engineering] did say that it would probably cost them $200k-$300k to move to the top of Republic, but he didn't elaborate on why it would cost that much. Well I said I wouldn't question their expense estimate but I lied. I think this estimate is deceptive. Here's why: They currently have their antenna atop their building. It's fairly simple to get the signal out of their studio and routed to the transmitter. Obviously it is more difficult (read expensive) to get the signal routed from their studio to the Republic Plaza. I believe this would require a STL (Studio to Transmitter Link) (forgive me if I have the terminology wrong). Okay fine, I don't know how much that costs but how are they going to get the signal out of their studio to Lookout if (and when) they ever get a tower constructed? Seems like they'll need an STL. So if the 200k-$300k figure includes this stuff they will need it anyhow. The quarter million dollar estimate sure makes it sound awfully expensive to move their antenna even though most of that money will eventually have to be spent anyway. I am just so sick of all the friggen sorry-ass excuses we get from the TV stations and the crap we have to put up with from ScareCo.

We all need to face reality and kiss Lookout goodbye and start pushing for an alternative. I am becoming more and more convinced Lookout will never happen - and if these stations wait a whole 'nother year for LCG2 to go down in flames how the hell long are we going to have to wait for LCG3? They need to start planning LCG3 NOW and not sit on their butts waiting for the ax to fall.

Oh, but wait, if KMGH waits till next year to decide to move their antenna then they can use the same crapola argument to wait until LCG3 is approved. The fact is they are blowing smoke up our butts.....excuse me while I turn the other cheek....

Hello all,

I've been lurking here for quite a while, but haven't posted anything (mainly because I don't have an HDTV or an STB yet). I HAVE been trying to prepare for the day I do have those, however, and I do have a 32" direct view HDTV on back-order.

Today I get OTA analog signals from Denver with varying levels of success, and I'm planning on upgrading my RS UHF antenna to a CM 4221 o4 4228.

The question I have is, should I be turning my eyes to the north (I live in Lafayette)? I know Cheyenne has a CBS and a FOX station, and on http://100kwatts.tmi.net/, it shows that they have NBC (who will be broadcasting DT on channel 11 unfortunately). Anyone in Loveland, Ft. Collins know how far south the analog signals can be received (antennaweb and TitanTV show CBS and FOX as alternatives for me). I am 70 miles from their towers.

I know I could probably get CBS and FOX from Denver, but it would be nice to get Cheyenne for 4 reasons:
1. I'm just mad at everyone involved in Denver DTV, so if I could (eventually) get Cheyenne (ESPECIALLY NBC), I'd do it and be happy.
2. They may start broadcasting at full strength before Denver (seems like a "sure thing"), so if those signals are supposed to be available for 70 miles, it may be easier to pick them up than pointing 1 direction for republic and another for FOX.
3. It would be nice to get CBS from up there on Sundays, as it would make it possible to see an NFL game opposite the Bronco game on days the Broncos are playing against an NFC opponent as the NFC game.
4. Both CBS and FOX on http://100kwatts.tmi.net/ also show the UPN icon, so the may :confused: also have some UPN programming (don't really know about that).

I'm asking this now because I have some wire fishing to do at home, and if there is a good chance I may get the northern signals, I will fish 2 RG6s (one for Denver antenna and 1 for Cheyenne antenna).

Thanks for any information, Greg

Hello Everyone

Anyone else notice that KCNC is off the air right now?

The reason I ask is that I am having a new roof put on the house and maybe the antenna got bumped or something. PBS is still coming in fine with a signal of 92 out of 100.

Thanks
Joe

I'm getting it as usual at 6:10 pm.

Hmmm, weird 18 is o.k. but no 35 and they come from the same location.

I guess I'll wait for the guys to get off the roof and go play with it. First time I've really had a problem.

Thanks
Joe

KCNC is just fine here at 6:12, still nothing showing up on KMGH or KUSA here in Boulder though.........

Maybe if they bump it enough 17 will pop up! ;)

Good luck.

Welcome to the forum Greg. I don't think anyone has answered your question because no one has a definitive answer. You may very well be able to get Cheyenne if the geography is in your favor and if you mount a big-ass yagi (with lots of gain) outside. RG-6 is relatively inexpensive so I would suggest you run two sets for two antennas and be done with it, knowing you'll be covered. It may very well turn out most of us will have to do this anyways because some stations will likely stay on Lookout (KDVR, KWGN) but others may have to move elsewhere and depending on the geometry most of us may need a rotor or two antennas (BTW, thanks (S)CARE).

You might also want to think about running more RG-6 for satellite reception.....

You mean 17 is on the air !!!!! :-)

gkanders

I have sent emails to KGWN (CBS) and KTWO (NBC) to ask when they will begin broadcasting in HD. It might help if a bunch of us emailed them to show that there is interest. (BTW, I haven't heard back yet).

I like your thought of watching Cheyenne stations because of the embarrasing state of Denver DTV. Hopefully they are close to getting on the air!

Hi guys, from KRMA;

Spirit of Colorado # 607 "Cowboys" will be fed in HD on Friday 10/18 at 20:30pm (MT).
It will be broadcast on KRMA DT-18.

Spirit of Colorado # 701 "It Beats Workin!" will be fed in HD on Saturday, 10/19 at 19:30 (MT).
It will be broadcast on KRMA DT-18.

Both will be coming from tape.

-John

Hey Geof,

Yeah, I think I'll run 2 or three, don't want to have to mess with this again.
right now I have an RS Rg6 run, and have read somewhere that RS brand RG6 is pretty bad (and I think my reception is worse since I traded my old RG 59 for this, so it may be true). I may look for another source.

mknoebel,
Do you have an email for KGWN? I went to their website, but it just looked like a CBS website, I didn't find any local contact info. I did send an email to NBC, got a response that they forwarded on to their engineer who is on vacation for a few days, but he'd get back to me when he returns. I think you would have better luck than me, the power figure I see only shows 160 kW on DT 11. Thanks, Greg

gkanders

For KGWN I just went to their website and clicked on the feeback button on the bottom of the page and sent it that way. Now that I think about it, I think I did that this spring and never received a response from them.

Last year about this time, I got ahold of an engineer up there who said that they hoped to be running last spring, that they were just waiting on a few things (flange?? ;) ) and then they would try to get on the air - but that they wouldn't dare try to do it in the Wyo winters (didn't happen obviously). But I haven't talked with them since.

Here's a question for one of you folks with Dish. A friend of mine at work and I were chatting recently and he was asking about network HD since he doesn't have the OTA module. I told him he could get CBS from Dish since KCNC is O&O by CBS, all he had to do was call. He caught me yesterday and told me that because he lives in the Louisville/Lafayette area they told him he had to also get a waiver from the Cheyenne station before they could authorize it. He said he dropped an email to Cheyenne and never heard back. I recall some of you had this problem. How did you solve it?

Didn't solve it in my case, the waiver request was turned down. I have put in 2 requests to date, and did not get either of them.

I live in Denver and easily got the waiver from Cheyenne and Colorado Springs. I just called the stations and they faxed the waiver to Dish.

Brian

Brian, I was trying to get the waiver so I could get the HD feed from CBS over E*. Is this what you were able to accomplish?
Why did you not need a waiver from KCNC? (I'm fairly certain that they are the ones that turned me down.)
Please specify, I'm sure there are plenty of others on this forum that would like to do the same thing. I do already get the low-def CBS feed with the "locals package" from E*, but really want the HD feed!

As I recall, nobody even mentioned "waiver" when I called Dish to activate CBS-HD. The CSR just checked something on the computer and said, "Yep, you qualify" and turned it on.

No Jetlag, KCNC is the one that you *wouldnt* need the waiver from because they're a CBS Owned and Operated station. If they "got in the way" it was a clueless CSR at Dish that was trying to hook you up with the run of mill out of market SD channels from Dish, to which you indeed wouldnt qualify for since the HD thing is different.

Thats one of those cases where you just need to keep calling back until you get a CSR with a clue.

Now some of the guys in the outlying areas may indeed need to get waivers from C. Springs or Cheyenne but I cant really speak to that because I, like Malcolm, was just able to get it turned on the day it debuted with no fuss or muss.

Thanks DP1, got it straight now. I assumed it was the other way around from what the CSR I spoke with said.

I just finished faxing waiver requests to both KKTV (C-Springs), and KGWN (Cheyenne), and will post the outcome as soon as I know what it is. I tried the "call E* several times until the right CSR answers" technique, but it was just not my day, kept getting the run-around. Perhaps the next time someone gets ahold of a good CSR there, they can post their extension or name here. Fingers crossed, toes crossed, hopefully outcome won't make me cross!

Thanks for the insight folks. I have passed your comments on to my friend and will let you know how it works. I also suggested that he just keep calling to see if he will get a rep that isn't such a 'hardass'. I didn't realize people were still having problems with this issue, I though it was a slam dunk to get the waivers in this area.

Hi Everyone,

I have been lurking here for some time, but just recently took the plunge into HDTV by purchasing a Pioneer SD-533HD5. I have been playing with a Hipix card on my PC for several months now, and I receive Fox, PBS, and CBS no problem from my small rooftop VHF/UHF antenna. I hope soon to become the "16th" person in Denver to get the low power ABC signal, as I am installing a CM 4228 on my roof this weekend and have pretty good line of sight to downtown. Anyway, I recently sent KUSA an e-mail about the status of their HDTV plans and I thought I would share their response with everyone. I realize there is nothing in it that is news to anyone here, but I was impressed with how quickly they responded (less than 24 hours), and the fact that they are now saying publicly that they expect to have a low power solution "in the next few months".

Here is the response:

Thank you for your note. We do not transmit any HDTV programming at this time.
The timeline to start this service is directly linked to the zoning approval
to build a new facility. As you may know, our earlier attempt to get this
approval was not successful (this was in conjunction with a number of other
local broadcasters). A new joint plan has been submitted to Jefferson County.
You can visit our web site
http://9news.com and look for the HDTV button for more details. It will
take several months for this plan to work its way through the zoning process.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours have been invested
at this point investigating options and designs. We are working on a low power
solution, but this will only service a portion of our viewing area and will
not meet the FCC goal. We expect to have this service operational in the next
few months. We are committed to bring HDTV to all of our viewers as soon as we
reasonably can, but we will need the approval to build a facility. We will
transmit HDTV programming on Ch. 16 at the point we are on the "air". Again,
thank for your interest in HDTV

A new joint plan has been submitted to Jefferson County.
You can visit our web site http://9news.com and look for the HDTV button for more details. It will take several months for this plan to work its way through the zoning process. Welcome to the group sigma (and I hope you can make it the "sweet 16").

It kinda gets me <right here, cough cough> how a one year process is spun into "several months". I guess they are smoking heathen devilweed out of the same pipe as KMGH. Hellooo, McFly, - you know this will not be settled before Summer/Fall next year and IF approved it will be another year beyond that before we can watch anything.

Anyone feel like paying $50 to ask Chairman Powell in person what the FCC is going to do to get DTV in Denver?

http://www.silicon-flatirons.org/conferences/confhome.html

Better yet, does anyone work for any of the companies that can get in free?

http://www.silicon-flatirons.org/supporters/supphome.html

CBS-HD Waiver Update:

I just phoned KKTV in Cheyenne, they approved my waiver request and faxed it to Dishnetwork.

I also phoned KGWN in C-Springs and got the voicemail of Tom G (not sure on the pronunciation or spelling). He is out of the office until Monday, so will have to wait until then. Left him a voicemail in addition to the fax he has already received from me.

***UPDATE*** 4:41 PM
Tom Grassel, from KKTV just phoned me and is faxing my approval to DishNetwork as I type this.

Now, I jsut have to wait for E* to turn it on. WOOHOO!!!

Saturday Update: just phoned E*, the HD waiver folks don't work weekends, so will have to wait until Monday for it to be turned on.

Re: Dish waivers and CBS-HD...ummm everyone in the front range area is in the Denver DMA, not the Cheyenne DMA or the Colorado Springs DMA. There should be absolutely no reason why you guys should be having to get the waivers from Cheyenne or Colorado Springs. It took me a 2 minute phone call to get KCBS-HD (LA on 148) tuned on for me last January, and I don't believe that the laws have changed since then. Are you guys telling the Dish CSRs that you live in the Denver area, so according to the rules that Dish has posted on their website, you qualify? And are you dealing with the first level CSR's or are they transferring you to the HD CSRs that deal specifically with CBS-HD? This is all sounding really strange - I'm almost positive that you shouldn't have to be going through all of this. Especially you Jetlag, considering where you live.

Originally posted by markdl
Re: Dish waivers and CBS-HD...ummm everyone in the front range area is in the Denver DMA, not the Cheyenne DMA or the Colorado Springs DMA. There should be absolutely no reason why you guys should be having to get the waivers from Cheyenne or Colorado Springs.

Yeah but on paper even if you're in the Denver DMA, if you can "receive" a grade B (or maybe it's A) signal based on contour maps from those 2 cities you could theoretically be asked to get a waiver.

Charlie even used the C. Springs and KCNC stations as an example for somebody that I believe he mentioned might live in Castle Rock...way back when, on air. The website says the same thing except uses D.C. and Baltimore as the example.

That said, like in my particular case down by 470 I looked up the maps one day and it showed C.Springs grade B all the way up to I-70 but I didnt need a waiver of any kind. Or maybe you need to be in grade A of another station.. hell I dont know. And those maps are a joke anyway as a practical matter.

By the way mark, you touched on the KMGH stretching of 17 issue a few posts back and said it didnt look good for unstretching. Could you elaborate?

Almost good news for me, but I'm 70 miles from Cheyenne. For the northern folks who feel bad about not getting Denver DTV, here is some potential good news for you. You may be able to get NBC LONG before us...

This is from Michael Brown from WY's NBC affiliate:

We hope to begin our DTV broadcasts in the next 6 months. An estimate in radius miles would be about 25 miles for our Casper signals, and 35 miles for Cheyenne. Analog and digital should be about the same.

Michael Brown
Chief Engineer
K2 TV / Equity Broadcasting
4200 East 2nd Street
Casper, WY 82609
(307) 237-3711
(307) 234-9866 (Fax)
mbrown@k2tv.com


Thanks, Greg

Originally posted by DP1
Now some of the guys in the outlying areas may indeed need to get waivers from C. Springs or Cheyenne but I cant really speak to that because I, like Malcolm, was just able to get it turned on the day it debuted with no fuss or muss.

So was I...then I called them a month ago to swicth me to the LA feed instead of NY and they said that I was getting it illegally because I never got waivers from Cheyenne and CS. They promptly took it away all together until I did get the waivers.

Brian

Here is my problem. I checked KGWN's site and they even have their grade "B" signal area map. It's nowhere near Denver! To respond to Mark, something has changed. I got CBS-HD flipped on right away when it was first up, but not when I tried to switch it a month ago. Here is the map:

http://www.kgwn.tv/station/headlines/10066.html

Using the website Brian posted above, I was able to find an email for Joan Turner, who is the General Manager of KGWN. They didn't list anyone in engineering. I emailed her to see if she could tell me when they might be on air. Again, I encourage others here to email her as well to show interest.

cbs5gm@sisna.com <cbs5gm@sisna.com>

Remember, as was stated earlier, many of the first level CSR's at Dish are clueless about the CBS HD feeds and will try and qualify you for the out of market nets and not the HD nets. Make sure they transfer you to someone who is authorized to add the HD nets.

It took an e-mail to ceo@echostar.com to finally get me hooked up correctly. I get both WCBS-HD and KCBS-HD since I have dishes looking at 61.5 and 148.

Hi guys,

Here is the text of the CBS/DISH agreement allowing us in Denver to get the CBS-HD Feed.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/locals/cbshd/index.shtml

I just kept reading the Qualification Method #1 to the CSR at DISH untill they found someone that knew what I was talking about.

Answers to Qualification Method #1:

1) We are in Denver, one of the O&O Markets
2) We do not receive signals from other markets (more or less)
3) You will need to buy their $4.99 locals thing, although I have heard of someone just buying one channel or something for $1.99 (Dan?)

-John

Yeah, I only pay 1.50 ala carte for it because when it first lit up there was no requirement that you subscribed to your Locals "package" which I didnt/dont have.

Apparently nowadays though you do need to have that.

Originally posted by DP1
By the way mark, you touched on the KMGH stretching of 17 issue a few posts back and said it didnt look good for unstretching. Could you elaborate?

Rick Craddock isn't budging yet. He has told me that they spent a great deal of money on their equipment and it does a far better job of modifying the aspect ratio of their signal than our equipment will do. While that's true, I haven't been able to convince him yet that we would prefer the aspect ratio to be unaltered.

Originally posted by markdl
Rick Craddock isn't budging yet. He has told me that they spent a great deal of money on their equipment and it does a far better job of modifying the aspect ratio of their signal than our equipment will do. While that's true, I haven't been able to convince him yet that we would prefer the aspect ratio to be unaltered. With this cram it down your throat attitude perhaps I am lucky not to receive KMGH. I'd probably tell them where to shove it and it wouldn't be down the throat....

BTW, I really don't care to tour that second rate station so if a tour is setup I'll pass.

We were almost off page 3, and I can't think of a better way to bring it back up top, especially for us Northerners!!

I just received an email from Joan Turner, GM of KGWN (CBS) in Cheyenne. I asked her when they would be up and running in HD. She said that they are in the process of preparing the transmitter site for digital upgrade and should be fully HDTV by mid to late December of this year!!!!

Outstanding news for us that may never see Denver HDTV!! (And in case you missed it, the NBC station up there said they hoped to be up in about 6 months)

Did she say if KGWN wil be at full power or just low-power?

Ernie,

I emailed her back to try to find out. I'll post any info I get.

Did anyone else email KGWN?

Originally posted by mknoebel
Ernie,

I emailed her back to try to find out. I'll post any info I get.

Did anyone else email her?

Yes, I e-mailed her yesterday and got the same reply today--fully HDTV by mid to late December of this year.

That's great news! Their FCC extension filing seemed to suggest that it would be towards the end of next year before they were on the air.

I'm a bit less optimistic about the Cheyenne NBC station. I don't think their coverage is anywhere close to what KGWN's is. Has anyone picked up their analog version from northern Colorado?

I notice that KGWN seems a little proud of HDTV coming soon. From http://www.kgwn.tv/station/headlines/10066.html:

'Combine this with a high-definition signal, which is just around the corner, and CBS NewsChannel 5 becomes “Your Station.” '

It certainly does! Let's hope for a good high-power signal!

Mark

Hi everyone,

You can now call it 16 people receiving channel 17! Superbowl and Stanley Cup playoffs here I come! Over the weekend I installed a CM 4228 on my roof, and after some tweaking I can now get 17 with a 55 - 65 signal strength. Not the best signal, but good enough for a stable picture. I have a couple questions, though, for the experts:

1. When I point my antenna slightly west of downtown, I get a 70 signal strength on my DTC-100, but my Hipix card goes down to 40. If I point the antenna slightly east of downtown, the Hipix signal goes up to 58, but the DTC-100 goes down to 64. How can 2 tuners prefer different pointing angles? (From where I live, the "true" position of the transmitter should be the second one.)

2. Is it just me, or does the regular, upconverted stuff on 17 look really bad. I watched "Alias" and "The Practice" last night in HD and they looked very good, but I thought "Liar, Liar" and the news looked terrible. I get a better picture from analog channel 7 stretched in "Natural Wide" mode on my Pioneer.

3. What is the current status of 32 (Fox)? I tuned in to Firefly last Friday and it was in 4:3 480i. I remember reading posts in this thread about Fox having various technical problems. Is that still the case? I am really hoping that the 24 premiere next week will be in widescreen 480p.

Thanks.

In regards to number 1 it probably has something to do with each units unique multipath or signal reflection capabilities.

As to 2, yeah unless 17 is showing HD their signal is hideous because they seem to think we want their signal altered for us. They could learn something from KCNC in regards to upconversion of non HD programming.

And thirdly, who knows. KDVR always has one issue or another it seems. I wouldnt count on the 480p widescreen, but you never know I guess. When they've been able to show the dramas like that in the past they're looked pretty good as non HD goes.

Originally posted by mbuchana

I'm a bit less optimistic about the Cheyenne NBC station. I don't think their coverage is anywhere close to what KGWN's is. Has anyone picked up their analog version from northern Colorado?

'Combine this with a high-definition signal, which is just around the corner, and CBS NewsChannel 5 becomes “Your Station.” '

It certainly does! Let's hope for a good high-power signal!

Mark

Agreed, Mark. It does become our station now! With this information, I'm going into the attic and pointing the antenna north. The only digital station I was getting before was Faux, so that's no loss.

I've never been able to pick up NBC, but I'll give it a try!

Good news, the waiver process is complete and I'm now receiving CBS-HD from NY, WOOHOO!
Now, all I have to do is get ABC and NBC and I'm all set :p ! To bad that's also not just a matter of sending a couple of faxes back and forth. :(

AN OFFER:
I have tweaked my Dish500 (110-119) and my single dish (61.5) several times since installing them on my new house, but have been dissapointed with the signal strength, just not getting the same as I had at the old place. I have a 100% clear line of site shot at both locations, just not getting the same readings. I did a bit of research and found out that the RG6/U Quad shield I used (an entire 500' roll for the whole house), is about the worlds poorest quality import crap there is. I met a rep from Belden who found the product's spec sheet and faxed it to me, this stuff is barely rated to 950MHz instead of >2GHz like the Belden. He also showed a comparison between the two (pF/ft, Vel of Prop, Ohms), boy is my stuff garbage! So, looks like I will be pulling a whole bunch of new RG6! Luckily I also installed several PVC conduits, so the swap out will be easy, just time comsuming. Anyone interested in free beers for helping? I guess I could sweeten the pot with a Superbowl Party invitation, I have a VP-12S1, 92" Firehawk, and I get 17 (only a few blocks away). Any takers?

What a pain in the butt! :mad:

OK...count me in as well for Ch 17...
I've installed RCA 303X or something like this in my attic and get all 4 DTV channels.

17- 50-60%
18 - 80-90%
32 - 50-60%
35 - 70-85%

I was hoping for HD signal for Superbowl and Stanley Cup playoffs as well...
Is ABC in Denver (Ch 17) going to transmit it in Hi Def?
Too bad that regular feed on 17 is stretched 4:3. They can keep it...
The best picture is on PBS - is it in HiDef?

Just some more info on local DTV and HDTV from yet another user.

Greetings to everyone,

Jacek

Originally posted by sigma957
3. What is the current status of 32 (Fox)? I tuned in to Firefly last Friday and it was in 4:3 480i. I remember reading posts in this thread about Fox having various technical problems. Is that still the case? I am really hoping that the 24 premiere next week will be in widescreen 480p.
Probably no 480p this year on ch32. I had posted this back on page 137 on Oct 10 :
Originally posted by RonAuger
I just talked to Eddie Hernandez at KBDI and Mike Howey at KDVR on the status of their DTV signals.

KBDI-DT ch38
I noticed that ch38 has been up and down alternately almost every time I check and asked Eddie about the status and schedule of changes to their DTV xmitter. He explained that the xmitter they are currently using is borrowed for eqpt testing purposes and they will continue to broadcast very sporadically. It might be hard for many of you to see if you can lock on to it when you don't know if they are xmitting or not. He said they will hear the decision on a grant next week which would allow them to purchase their own xmitter. He asked for, and I sent him, the link to this thread and he said he would keep us informed. When I asked about content, he said they wanted to air as much HDTV as they could get their hands on (IMO probably not any more or different content than KRMA). But at least KBDI from Squaw reaches a different subset of viewers than KRMA does from Republic Plaza. He also said he was working toward a solution to the shadowing issue, but I'm not sure what that entailed. He hoped to let us know more on their scheduling (for infrastructure changes) after next week.

KDVR-DT ch32
I had talked to Mike Howey back in April when they sent their encoder back to the manufacturer in CA and hoped to have it back in 2 weeks. Now it seems they sent their whole setup back (he mentioned 4 pieces: encoder, MUX, computer system that controls it all, and something else). The manufacturer is still looking into their problems and said they might have to send it all to England to be worked on. KDVR didn't seem too optimistic about a resolution before the end of the year. As you guys have noted, they are able to pass some shows through in 16x9 but everything will be 480i until their eqpt issues are resolved. Mike thought this might give the station some impetus to go with another vendor / other eqpt. The stuff that's broke is at least 3 years old and this area of technology is changing as fast as the PC industry. It seems all the FOX's across the country use a variety of eqpt and are not standardized even amongst the O&O (I didn't realize KDVR was O&O too, like KCNC), mostly dependent on when they went live in DTV and what was available at that time.

Originally posted by Jetlag

I have tweaked my Dish500 (110-119) and my single dish (61.5) several times since installing them on my new house, but have been dissapointed with the signal strength, just not getting the same as I had at the old place. I have a 100% clear line of site shot at both locations, just not getting the same readings.

Well what readings *are* you getting? I'm sure you realize that theres no difference at all in picture quality between a reading of 65% and 100% right? The only difference is margin for error during snowstorms for example before the signal starts to break up.

In other words if I were like even in the 70's I wouldnt dick around with all that work (and expense) since theres very little to gain (since the pic doesnt start dropping out until well less than that anyway so theres still room for some error even at that point).

The only difference is margin for error during snowstorms for example before the signal starts to break up. VIOLA! This is why I tried tweaking the dishes in the first place. At my old house, unless it was raining quite heavily the signal rarely broke up. Now, even if there is only the lightest of drizzle or even just thick clouds (no rain) all I get is the old "satellite not found" message. Since there is really not much expense involved (just the price of the new Belden which I already found cheap on the internet and a pack of new "F" connectors) will try to do it in the near future. Already have the 2" PVC from the attic to the equip rack then into the basement, so really will only have to attach the new cable to the old and pull it through.

I don't know if you need 2 GHz swept RG6 (but it won't hurt), unless you are using DishPro LNB's - in which case you need 2.2GHz swept RG6. But your RG6 should at least do 1.5 GHz to do an adequate job for DBS.

Good Luck on your cable pulling party !

Originally posted by mknoebel
Agreed, Mark. It does become our station now! With this information, I'm going into the attic and pointing the antenna north. The only digital station I was getting before was Faux, so that's no loss.

I've never been able to pick up NBC, but I'll give it a try!


You should not have a problem, Here is Joan's answer to my letter (I asked her specifically about coverage area and mentioned that I live in Lafayette)...

Hi Greg:
Thanks for your email.
We are presently in the process of preparing our transmitter site for the digital upgrade. We should be fully HDTV by mid to late December. I would bet that with a good antenna that you would be able to pick up our signal quite clearly. We have a good number of loyal viewers in Colorado who prefer our station to Denver and pick us up over the air. Yes our coverage will be similar to our present analog signal. Thank you for your interest.



Thanks, Greg

Hey, I just read this over at Home Theater Spot...


just emailed a TV critic here in Seattle because I saw that when he reviewed a TV show he listed everything about it---except whether it was available in HDTV.

He emailed right back saying they were working on adding an HDTV symbol and that he would pass my interest on to his editor. I suspect many of you out there subscribe to local newspapers that don't indicate whether a show is in HDTV or not. Email the paper and tell them that's what you want.

I think my newspaper should have an interest in HDTV anyway, given that every week my paper is stuffed with mailers from CC, BB, Sears and Magnolia Hifi hocking HDTV's.

Now that the HDTV ball seems to be rolling why not help move it along faster. When people open the newspaper and see little HDTV symbols next to their favorite shows maybe they get HDTV, and then start complaining about those shows that don't....


We should do that. At least that way Channel 9 can see "KUSA is not currently broadcasting any DTV" every day in the Post and News :D .

Greg

Well, something must have changed since January, because I just called Dish today to see about adding CBS HD and I to have to get waivers from KKTV and KGWN. At least it sounds like it is an easy process based on the posts that I have seen here.

I talked to a regular Dish CSR first, but she transferred me to someone in the waivers department who actually did the qualification testing, etc. I don't quite understand why I need waivers from CBS stations so far away (I live in SE Aurora), but there you go! You just have to love this completely screwed up system, NAB!

Oh well, I will call both stations tomorrow and hopefully get the waivers faxed to Dish soon.

Steve

Anybody own one of those DLP Marantz VP12S1 front projectors?
That is to watch local Denver DTV?
(Like the way i kept it on-topic)

I'm thinking of getting the new S2 model.

Originally posted by santellavision
Anybody own one of those DLP Marantz VP12S1 front projectors?

That is to watch local Denver DTV?
(Like the way i kept it on-topic)


Local Denver DTV?? Would that be our local amateur station KMGH broadcasting to its own parking lot, our own KUSA, "Colorado's Leader" celebrating its 50'th anniversary as the 'leading' self promotion station in the Denver market???

Oh, BTW, no I am not familiar with the unit, just had to keep on topic here.

Glad to see the Cheyenne stations are getting on the air soon. I should be able to get them here in Boulder too with a little antenna turn. I must admit as a native of these here parts, I never pictured Cheyenne as a technology leader over Denver, but then what the heck do I know??? I wonder if KUSA will start some new adds about their station saying "Hey, we're almost as good as the stations in Cheyenne and Colorado Springs"?

As for KMGH, now that they are "on the air" with DTV, I wonder if we should start a letter writing campaign to the FCC to request that their superflous analog service license be returned and Channel 7 shut off. Obviously they have nearly the same coverage as their analog station since they are 'on the air'.
:mad:

"Doing my part to speed up the DTV transition"!


Sorry folks, just in the mood for a short rant, bear with me, it keeps my blood pressure down.

Originally posted by santellavision
Anybody own one of those DLP Marantz VP12S1 front projectors?
That is to watch local Denver DTV?
(Like the way i kept it on-topic)

I'm thinking of getting the new S2 model. So am I. I'd like to see an HD2 chip pj along side the Sharp Z9000. Listen Up is going to call me when they get ahold of the Seleco 300+ (HD2-based). ********** has the Sharp for $4800 -- I'd like to see for myself if an HD-based machine is worth the price difference.

The program Spirit of Colorado # 701 "It Beats Workin'" will be fed in HD on Friday, 10/25 at 20:30 (MT).

It will be broadcast on KRMA DT-18.

The source will be coming from tape.


One thing that we may consider is having a monthly "club meeting" at folks houses. We could help JetLag pull his RG6 cable and then watch some sort of show on his setup. We could vist JM and see how he is in such close contact with our neighbors up north. I'd be happy to show off my Barco 1200 on my $10 screen. Maybe someone has that VP12S1 that Ron and Ernie are interested in. Antenna tweaking parties, etc?

-John

Great idea- I'm in!

I'll be the first to offer. I only have a 46" Mits, but it's been tweeked by Michael TLV and looks great. I can also show off my Broadcast editing/shooting equipment.

How about next week, say Thursday 7pm, so we can see a bit of CSI!

I've contacted Pro-Tech (based in Greeley) and they do install antennas in the Northern CO area.

They quoted me the price on the 3677 Channel Master - smaller of the better antennas that are VHF and UHF combined. Any thoughts on using something like that vs the 4228 Bow Tie? I want to have both but don't want my house looking like a secret gov base. They will put up a rotor but it was clear they have not done it for a while and he had to look up info on them.

Reggie

Originally posted by A4Short
I've contacted Pro-Tech (based in Greeley) and they do install antennas in the Northern CO area.

They quoted me the price on the 3677 Channel Master - smaller of the better antennas that are VHF and UHF combined. Any thoughts on using something like that vs the 4228 Bow Tie? I want to have both but don't want my house looking like a secret gov base. They will put up a rotor but it was clear they have not done it for a while and he had to look up info on them.

Reggie

Reggie,

I don't know about these specific antennas, but one thing I've noticed is that the NBC digital station in Cheyenne (KKTU) will be on channel 11 (VHF). Not sure how likely we will be to pick that up--the station engineer suggested that the radius would be about 35 miles, which would make it unlikely. Curiously, if you check www.antennaweb.org, it looks like we should be able to get KKTU-DT easily (once they are up and running), even though the analog version doesn't even show up in our area.

That could make VHF a factor even if you only want the digital channels. Unfortunately, VHF/UHF antennas tend to be quite a bit bigger than UHF-only models.

Mark

I guess nobody's interested in doing a monthly group meet? Oh well, i thought it was a good idea (and a way to learn about new equipment and installations) I'm about to go crazy and get the hot new Marantz DLP front Projector and a 80" screen so, I'm really interested to see what everybody has put together.

Secondly,
Don, any word on KWGN's 1/2 power x-mitter?

Thanks Mark

I won't be popular at all with my neighbors (especially being on the HOA Board)

Waiting on the group buy for the HD200 to happen and once I get it hooked up - I will look into the OTA anteanna.

Reggie

Originally posted by santellavision
I guess nobody's interested in doing a monthly group meet? Oh well, i thought it was a good idea (and a way to learn about new equipment and installations)

I think it is a great idea too, just not sure how much I could get involved. My schedule is already so hectic it is out of control, and commiting to another monthly meeting would be tough. At the moment I have activities on Mon. Tues. and Wed. night that I have to do, Thursdays is my night off to do stuff around the house, and the weekends are shot since it is football season and I have tickets to Bronco and CU games. For the next few weeks I am also working some 'get out the vote' programs for various candidates. Also, my house is under construction. I am still chasing and fixing my upstairs shower issue (replacing the walls and tiles in the next week or so), and I recently had another unrelated water problem in the basement that has me replacing all of the flooring in my basement. On the plus side, the plumbing in the house is now (knock on wood) in good shape. Other than that, I have a lot of spare time. If it wasn't for late night TV I wouldn't see much at all these days. Things should be a LOT calmer for me after the holidays.

I am not opposed to even having one at my place either, but it would take a lot of work to get things presentable. I would think just offering an event as an 'open house' might be OK every other month or so as people get moved (or wives give permission) to do it. If others are like me, I know we have Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up and it is tough to squeeze things in. On the other hand, the house is usually clean then too. I do like the idea though, as there are only so many more tours we can schedule.
;)

Like jm, I love the idea, but I can't commit to much right now. Our second baby is due at the end of November, and my wife's having a rough go of it this time around. Next year should be better.

jm -- what do you mean not too many more places? We've toured all the Denver HD broadcasters, haven't we? KRMA, KCNC, and HDNet...is there anyone else?

I've actually invited Ernie "Santellavision" to my place on Sunday night, 7pm. He is interested in purchasing a VP-12S2/Firehawk, and since I have that setup (w/12S1), he wanted a preview before placing his order. If anyone else would be interested in stopping by Sunday night, just drop me a PM.
I won't have the new cabling in by then, but other than that, my system is pretty well 'tweaked' (guess this means I'm going to have to clean sometime this weekend).
FYI, I live in the Washington Park neighborhood for you "suburbanites".

Jetlag
The Avalanche are on HDNet on Sunday night. That would be a great demo for Ernie.
BTW I'm just putting the finishing touches on my HT, which includes:
Seleco HT300
Stewart 100" Studiotek 1.3 Microperf
Denon AVR4802
Sony HD200

If anyone is considering a DLP, you need to take a look at the HT300+. Based on my experience with the HT300, you cannot go wrong.
I'm going on vacation in a week, but after that if anyone would like to see my setup, drop me a line and we can set something up.

The Avalanche are on HDNet on Sunday night. That would be a great demo for Ernie I agree! Now, if only I had DTV instead of E*. ;)

Keith,
Sounds like you've got a great setup too. I've been researching all the TI HD1 chip DLP projectors (Sim, Runco, Marantz etc) and now the improved HD2 chip units are starting to arrive that it's time to make the move to a 'bigger' home theater!

P.S. Anyone interested in a Mits 46807 tweeked by ISF God Michael TLV Chen??
Doesn't everybody need a 2nd HDTV set yet? ;)

Originally posted by santellavision
Doesn't everybody need a 2nd HDTV set yet? ;)

I think so, but I'm not sure if the wife agrees!;) But it would be a nice compliment to my 55 inch Mits...
:cool:

According to the FCC, Denver is the bottom of the heap in getting their HD going in the group of 11 to 30 largest markets.

There has been bad judgement, irrational and non-scientific thinking, and a reactaionary attitude toward the whole HD movement. As a consequence the citizens of the area have less that their brethern in the other similiar sized metropolitan areas in the country.

I will be moving away before the end of the year.

Originally posted by jgrobertson
According to the FCC, Denver is the bottom of the heap in getting their HD going in the group of 11 to 30 largest markets.

There has been bad judgement, irrational and non-scientific thinking, and a reactaionary attitude toward the whole HD movement. As a consequence the citizens of the area have less that their brethern in the other similiar sized metropolitan areas in the country. No doubt about any of that. The real sad part is that it is unlikely to be resolved anytime soon.I will be moving away before the end of the year.Hopefully not just because of the DTV situation. It is amazing though that a few residents can hold the entire Front Range hostage because of their own personal greed. It's even more amazing that elected County officials are part and party to the debacle.

Maybe you guys should move to Albuquerque, New Mexico!!

Here's our fine 5 digital stations listed here and as well few others will be on the air soon.:cool:

KRQE-DT "CBS" carrys full CBS's HDTV primetime programings at MST 7 to 10 PM and some some live CBS's HDTV sports programings!

KOAT-DT "ABC" ABC's HDTV programings are shown little early due to a time zone diffrences but the nice thing is they replay our 6 PM newscast on 9 PM!

KOB-DT "NBC" Shame on them they only shows 480i due to a fact Hubbard is footdragging on getting HDTV satellite receiver.

KASA-DT "FOX" Upconverted 1080i but running full power at 390 KW ERP on the Sandia Crest mountain.

KNME-DT "PBS" Carrys fulltime HDTV demos and will upgrade to full power at 250 KW ERP on the Sandia Crest mountain around Nov, the 1st!:)

KWBQ-DT "WB" and KASY-DT "UPN" will be going on the air any days before the deadline of Nov, the 1st and of course that's depends on the weather.

I am not sure on KCHF-DT "REL" KAZQ-DT "REL" KNAT-DT "TBN" and KLUZ-DT "Univision" on air date status at this time.

Now you know!! :)

10-27-02

Board of County Commissioners hearing, December 16, 2002, 5:00 p.m.
If anyone is interested.

Originally posted by pookers
Board of County Commissioners hearing, December 16, 2002, 5:00 p.m.
If anyone is interested. Geeze, this application has slowed to an absolute crawl. I suspect this will be the first of several hearings, which no doubt means it won't be decided until February or so (just a guess). I think that means it will be almost a year and a half to get thru JeffCo.

On the other hand we have stations like KMGH that believe they will be on the air shortly and don't have to move their toy transmitter because (somehow) their (LCG2) app will sail right thru JeffCo.

Now then who else (other than KMGH) believes this nonsense??

I just thought i'd throw this out there...

Anybody interested in contacting KRMA and seeing if they are willing to work out another 'deal' with KMGH to simulcast the Super Bowl, so that most of Denver can actually watch it in HD?

Just came across this in a trade journal. Two killed when Nebraska tower collapses.

http://www.dropzone.com/news/TwoKilledinTVTowerCollap.shtml

-John

I wonder if the (S)CARE folks will be worried about the RF radiation from these towers too??


http://www.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CpByEWaicueiTqLjpqurdqvnulurjr0LuquW&Topic=Digital%20TV&Nav=pr-prmynews-

Glad to see Pueblo and Grand Junction will be online even though it is low power. Any bets on which towns get the 'full power' treatment first??


On another topic:

Originally posted by pookers
Board of County Commissioners hearing, December 16, 2002, 5:00 p.m.
If anyone is interested.

Glad to see this date set, its been a while since I smashed my head into a brick wall, the dizziness was starting to go away.

Some good news, folks. I just got a call from Don Perez at channel 9. They have ordered the equipment to set up a low powered antenna at the Republic Building. Now if channel 7 would just move their antenna to the same location we would be able to get HD to a lot of the Denver market while we wait on Jefferson County and the courts. Lew Black

Well, that is decent news from KUSA, although if they don't have the equipment yet, I would think that there's about as good a chance as a small round ball-shaped object made from the snow falling outside right now surviving in temperatures approaching those rumored to be in an after-death not so pleasant place of being online and broadcasting signal next month.

But, at least it's ordered! That is a step in the right direction. Hopefully Don talked to David about where to get the flange! :D

Edit: Sorry Lew. I'm not meaning to demean your post at all. I guess after awhile around here (in this thread anyways) I'm getting as cynical as some of the others. I look forward to watching some of NBC's shows again (and hopefully sooner than later!)

Originally posted by Lew Black
Some good news, folks. I just got a call from Don Perez at channel 9. They have ordered the equipment to set up a low powered antenna at the Republic Building. Now if channel 7 would just move their antenna to the same location we would be able to get HD to a lot of the Denver market while we wait on Jefferson County and the courts. Lew Black I'm sure the sales folk at ListenUp are happy to tell potential HD customers that they may be able to receive HD from KRMA, KCNC, KWGN and KUSA (and faux digital from KDVR). Perhaps someone from LU could tell KMGH that your customers would like to see more effort (to transmit a usable signal) from the ABC affiliate.

Lew,
Any time frame from Mr. Perez when he thinks they'll be on-the-air?

My guess is that will be trying really hard to get it operational by Dec 31st. (For the IRS write-off)

Ernie,

Tax write off only apply for the Fiscal Year - and that may or not be Dec 31 for them. For instance - my company ends on the 31st of this month (tomorrow).

Reggie

Reggie,
I was just going by past history. KCNC which "Put Into Service" their DTV equipment Dec 29th or 30th of last year. You might be right, but if they just ordered the equipment, it's not too likely they'll make the end of Nov... but who knows, the flanges might be in stock because most other markets already have their flanges! ;)

is it just me or is fox off the air??????

Just you, apparently.

So I had this thought this morning...David Layne has told us that he's concerned that when KWGN goes on the air at half power (or whatever power level they will transmit) on channel 34 that they will overpower the KCNC signal on 35 because of the power level difference. Makes me wonder if KUSA (16) will completely overpower KMGH's (17) signal...

I mean the power level difference has to be about the same, doesn't it? :D

I suspect any walkie-talkie operation at or near the frequency of the toy transmitter used by KMGH would wipe out it's signal.

I will really not like KWGN ruining my reception of KCNC DT. That will really put me in a foul mood. KCNC-DT is the only local channel I watch (with the exception Enterprise on Ch 20 and sometimes KRMA-DT).

Did any of the other 14 people that get KMGH notice they did not transmit in HD last night? Just their phony wide screen stretched SD version. I was tired, but I don't think it was my eyes! Or, maybe the snow has an adverse effect on their already super low power transmitter.

Noticed that too, Dennis.

I can't imagine that when the FCC and the Grand Alliance (or should i say, Grand Illusion) designed the DTV system, they didn't test for interference with adjacent channels? And if so, spaced the channels apart like they do with NTSC.

OK, it is the Govt... we'll just see.

Anybody heard from KWGN? I thought Don might have posted back when i asked the status.

If stations were broadcasting at the same power level, I don't think there would be any concern, but a station broadcasting at 450kW right next to a station broadcasting at 1kW or 5KW or whatever KCNC is broadcasting at is where the concern lies.

Actually, It seems to me most of them are broadcasting at about .0001kW, especially 17. ;)

I think I may have found the solution to all of our (S)CARE problems. If we all pitch in a relatively few bucks, I believe we could outfit all the folks endangered by radiation on Lookout and perhaps even all the (S)CARE members in the area. This would allow the stations to begin broadcasting at full power on Lookout without unnecessary concerns about the health and safety of the the (S)CARE folks who live there. Concern about low power stations interfering with each other would become mute points. Is anyone else willing to ante up to buy these devices?

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/abbafoil.jpg

ROTFL!

Somebody's gotta' make a presentation to the JeffCo board and use that slide!
At least it would show we have a sense of humor after hearing no-stop BS from that side.

Tell them this technical illustration is from the very latest Swedish RF study taking place!!!

I'm getting enough signal from KDVR tonight, but there's nothing there. Anyone hear anything from them recently?

I am having the same problem. On my 6000 I get a good signal but no picture or sound on 32-1. If I add it manually or by searching, it is mapping to 31-1. If I select 31-1 it switches to 32-1 but still no signal. Strange!

For your reading pleasure, I just saw this posted over at DBS Forums:

http://rfupdate.broadcastengineering.com/nov_1/index.htm#denver

Well gee, maybe they're reconfiguring things getting ready for some widescreen football, or at least to get back to widescreen primetime. Yeah right.

Gladiator is looking good though. Speaking of 17, hows 17 doing on your system Phil since the leaves have fallen. Any changes either way?

On my street most of the trees still have leaves!

17 is OK most nights. I have seen it as high as 61 and as low as 49.

Most nights it is around 55-56

Wind seems to cause the most signal problems for me. Still no 17-2!

I can't handle the way they do SD so no 7 news for me.

I am not getting a signal on KBDI-DT. Possibly due to the weekend.

I hope KUSA-DT comes on the air soon. GM Ogden said mid November.

Mike,
Can you check that info. Seems like i've heard they are just now ordering the equipment. And we all know it takes a quite a while for stations get it operational. Digital is completely new to all these engineers and most of the time it's not just a mount-it-in-the-rack-and-fire-it-up kinda' thing.

Originally posted by santellavision
I guess nobody's interested in doing a monthly group meet? Oh well, i thought it was a good idea (and a way to learn about new equipment and installations) I'm about to go crazy and get the hot new Marantz DLP front Projector and a 80" screen so, I'm really interested to see what everybody has put together.

Secondly,
Don, any word on KWGN's 1/2 power x-mitter?

Sorry I've been deliquent in responding, I have been preparing for the Board of Adjustment Hearing on Wed 11/6. This hearing is for the appeal CARE has filed regaring our recent Telecom permit approval.

Any support you & AVS could provide would be appreciated. As it stands now, the BOA hearing is set for Wed 11/6 at 10:30am at the Taj Mahal. JeffCo has not yet updated their website for this week's hearings (See: http://206.247.49.21/ext/fast/planzone/boa-agenda.htm)

I will update our progress later this week.

BTW: We have had conversations with KCNC concerning potential interference issues.

Don

Don
Thanks for the update. I will be out of town on business for the next few days, so I can't be there Wed. Hopefully some of the others can show up for support. Good luck!

Originally posted by Hot
I am not getting a signal on KBDI-DT. Possibly due to the weekend. They haven't been on the air the past few weeks. I'm trying to get an update on the status of their grant and see if I can get a transmitter testing schedule.

This just in from Pete McNally:
Friends,

The County has completed their review of our application and will be providing us with a report this afternoon. The next step is for us to respond to the issues and concerns in the report. The County has already provided us with copies of the comments from all the referral agencies, i.e. Jefferson County Health Dept., Jefferson County Open Space. We have prepared a response to those issues which we generally technical, i.e. the mix of native seeds to plant in areas to be re-vegetated, etc. In my opinion, the biggest issue was the appearance of the building, not the tower. We have been approaching the issue in two ways: making changes to the design to lessen the impact and second, create better visuals to more clearly illustrate how well the building is integrated into the site. Notably, the Jefferson County Health Department noted that the proposal complies with the RF safety standards.

I will follow-up shortly with a summary of the issues the County has identified. I hope that our efforts to date to respond to the referral agencies’ comments will shorten our turnaround time.

I just got a message from Mike Howey at KDVR that said they got their encoder back last Thursday and they are in the process of installing and tweaking it today so we should be getting 480p from them soon. Assuming of course that its been fixed.

I replied to Pete with a few questions -- here's his response:MessageFrom: Pete McNally [pete@grinnellgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:16 AM
To: Auger, Ron
Subject: RE: LCG Update

Ron,

Thanks for your email. We’ll know more about the turnaround time once we get their actual comments. However, the comments received from the referral agencies have predominately only required answering questions to provide greater clarity. We have also made a few changes such as using a non-metal roof to reduce potential glare, modifying the landscaping plan to better obscure the building. What we receive today is from the County planning staff and Jim Hart, their engineering consultant. I don’t anticipate changes to the fundamentals of the application: consolidation of existing towers; single shorter tower with no candelabra located further east from residences; rf monitoring program to be paid by LCG; rf interference remediation program, etc. I anticipate more clarification and minor changes. To make a longer answer short, I believe we can still be scheduled for our first hearing in January, February at the latest.

Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: Auger, Ron [mailto:Ron.Auger@getronics.com]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:49 AM
To: Pete McNally
Subject: RE: LCG Update

Pete,

Thanks so very much for the update. The process seems so painfully slow, any information on even the smallest amount of progress is always welcome.

Can you share with us what your view of a near-term schedule might be? What do you do with the report you are receiving (change the application, just answer some questions)? What is your turn-around time and what is the process your reply goes through?

Ron Auger
The Jan/Feb timeframe for the first Planning Commission hearing sounds realistic, given that the application was submitted in... , early July, wasn't it? Pete mentioned that JeffCo would be willing to make the hearing date firm even before they received LCGs replies.

Pete gave his permission for me to post his email address pete@grinnellgroup.com, if you would like to pose your own questions regarding the Lake Cedar Group application.

Originally posted by markdl
I just got a message from Mike Howey at KDVR that said they got their encoder back last Thursday and they are in the process of installing and tweaking it today so we should be getting 480p from them soon. Assuming of course that its been fixed.

Well, not today. No widescreen for Boston Public. Hopefully soon.

Brian

Don,

I will try to attend on the station's behalf to lend any support I can.

Jeff

Originally posted by jeffden
Don,

I will try to attend on the station's behalf to lend any support I can.

Jeff

Jeff:

Thanks for your support. If you live in JeffCo it would be good if you would speak briefly in suport of the Zoning administrator's approval.

I look forward to seeing you.

Regards,
Don

Don,
I'll try to make it also, I have a meeting this morning, but if i can i will.

Don, I do live in Jeffco and at least at this early part of the morning, my schedule remains clear for now. I should be able to make it.

Jeff

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Jeff:

Thanks for your support. If you live in JeffCo it would be good if you would speak briefly in suport of the Zoning administrator's approval.

I look forward to seeing you.

Regards,
Don
How does the Board of Adjustment work? Do they issue their ruling today or do they sit on it for a while?

I went to KWGN Board of Adjustment Hearing. What a Bludge!!

It started about 11ish and unfortunatly, i had to leave at 2:15. KWGN didn't even start their presentation! (S)Care just rambled on and on.

The big issue for (S)Care was that they didn't think the Zoning Administrator should have approved the application. "How can you approve an application when the applicant is currently not abiding by the rules... KWGN is over the FCC RF limit at 116% in one spot".

The problem is that if you use the old rule and only in one spot, with one random RF meter, Yes you could be in violation. The other side of the coin is that there were 4 RF meters with completly different readings! Who do you believe. Then add to that the fact that the FCC recently changed the way you measure RF. The old method was to take two readings from one spot, average that and that was the definitive reading. Now the FCC has adopted a new way to take measurements and it uses two meters at four locations... the quadrant approach. Make sense? The board was having a hard time understanding this until they found out all the Info (that Al failed to present).

When the FCC, JeffCo & KWGN took recent measurements, JeffCo had a reading at one spot of 116% (of the FCC limit), KWGN was about 60%, the FCC had two RF meters, one was 103%, the other like 80% (I don't have the exact numbers on the KWGN & lower FCC meter) because Al Hislop failed to talk about the numbers well below the FCC limits (Nice job Al, too bad you got busted on that omission) 'Ya know... I remember a college math teacher telling me that "Graphs Don't Lie, but Liers Graph"! And all the meters were within calibration - go figure.

So, the board called him on a couple of other things, first was that the old JeffCo rules only require the measurements to be within the FCC limits, and nothing about the method of getting those limits. The fact that the FCC changed the method is not a defense he could use. And then the board said they had to follow the latest FCC rules or else that could come back to haunt them later. He got more & more huffy as they kept shooting him down. So, he called them Disgusting or something like that and walked off.

(S)Care's Deb Carney did a way too long speech on everything under the sun, repeating herself over and over. (I do note that she also had lots and lots of 'Graphs' too) I did get the sense that (S)Care is incredibly scared about the under 200' tower height loophole. That stations don't need to go through the entire application/public hearing process. (Hear that stations!) If this (S)Care appeal gets tossed, I think it will set precedent for the future.

Unfortunately, one of the board members had to leave, so instead of making a decision today, they are going to wait until that board member can review the missed info and they would decide later. (Not sure when that will be)

'Ya know... After listening to (S)Care for 3 hrs. my head hurts. I think i might have a aneurysm. It's not RF that's a problem, but listening to (S)Care for 3 hrs is!

Thanks for the report Ernie. It sounds like JeffCo was at least trying to be objective. I hope that trend continues.

As to the 200' tower loophole I doubt most stations would be willing to jump on this until LCG2 is decided.....maybe I am wrong but somehow I think it's not quite so straightforward.

What I would like to see is if KWGN could host other antenna(s) on their tower such that the LCG stations could use that tower for their low power setups. I know I am probably being foolish with this thought but it sure seems to me that more could be done and this would surely increase coverage area. Then again KMGH is fixated with their toy setup and evidently has no interest in becoming a real broadcaster than can reach more than a fortunate few.....

Originally posted by santellavision
I went to KWGN Board of Adjustment Hearing. What a Bludge!!

It started about 11ish and unfortunatly, i had to leave at 2:15. KWGN didn't even start their presentation! (S)Care just rambled on and on.

Ernie:

Thanks for coming out today and your continued interest in DTV. The hearing dragged on until about 3:15pm. After spending 4 hours in that room with no lunch, many were getting cranky.

We felt that we got our point across, responded to all the Boards's questions & are hopeful that the Board will uphold the Zoning Administrator's approval.

Since one of the Board Members had to leave they will present their determination on December 4, 2002 @ 9am.

Regards,
Don

Ernie, Thanks for summarizing. I arrived late and after the interminably long speeches ( presentations ), I too had to get on with it. I was foolishly expecting the quick and to the point type of hearing that KCNC got when their low power on Lookout proposal got axed a while back.

Jeff

Jeffco Planning Commission Hearings:
February 5, 2003 6:30 pm
February 12, 2003 6:30 pm

Message from Pete McNally this morning:

Friends,

Here’s a quick over view of the County’s concerns: Squaw and aesthetics. As I noted earlier, we’ve already begun working on our response to these items. Squaw recently submitted a report on a DTV test they conducted. Responding to this will be our critical path item. Not sure how long it will take as the engineers have just begun to dig in to it. I believe many in the forum were able to pick up the signal during the test. Any information you may have on its performance would be appreciated. I know many of you are concerned you won’t have coverage if the site were forced to be at Squaw. Any support you can provide regarding this point would be greatly appreciated.

Our hearing dates are set for February 5th, February 12th, and March 5th (if necessary.) It starts later than I’d like but it is at least compact. All the meetings will be in the evening.

Please write or call with any questions.

---------------------
I sent Pete a message describing my complete lack of signal from Squaw - I hope that everyone else will also. If LCG can demonstrate "real world" data that clearly states that the entire front range from I-25 west cannot receive signals from Squaw, that would go a long ways I would think to discrediting the viability of Squaw as a potential site.

You beat me to it Mark. I would like to take Marks suggestion one step further tho and ask everyone to submit a reception report for TV 12 in the Denver Area Coverage Thread. Yes, TV 12 is an analog channel so we won't be able to get signal strength readings but please indicate snowy, ghosty, great, etc (along with how snowy or ghosty). Also please indicate what sort of antenna you're using. If I may impose on Ron, it might be helpful if you took that data and did your map thing with it. Perhaps you can use various shades of grey (or different colors) to try and indicate reception quality at each location....

I think we're going to find that those "out East" have decent reception of TV12 while those in and along the foothills do not.....nonetheless we need some real world reception reports on TV12 to try and help fend off any big push for Squaw.....Please, even if you have not yet posted consider doing so in this matter.....

The Denver Coverage Map thread can be found here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587).

Heard anymore on KDVR's progress mark? Got some widescreen shows on tonight as well as rumor has it FOX is debuting widescreen football Sunday on 2 games.

Good idea, Geof. Dan, I sent another message to Mike Howey at KDVR this morning asking that exact question. Haven't heard back yet, but I'll report back as soon as I do. Mike's usually pretty good about replying pretty quickly.

I just checked KDVR and they are broadcasting in 480p. My TV locks on a 16:9 screen when they do that and it has been 4:3 for the last month or so. The program on was some cop documentary at night and the picture was very fuzzy. Hopefully, it was just the program.

It looks like a possibility of a football game in widescreen. I read on the Programming Forum this morning that Fox plans to show the Green Bay game in widescreen. I have no idea if that will be on here in Denver.

In regards to channel 12, I have only a large CM Yagi pointed more or less at Lookout (actually to get best signal on 17) and the picture is OK. Some ghosting and fuzziness, but I would expect that with just a UHF antenna. My guess is that is would be OK with a VHF antenna. I live SW of CC state park.

BTW, I guess I am going to have to go up on the roof to adjust the antenna for a better signal on 17. With the leaves dropping, whatever I was getting their tiny signal bounced off of has changed and I now get some dropouts. Signal down to 35 to 40 instead of 40 to 46. I sure wish they would get their act together. Maybe after I fall off of my roof, I (or my family) will sue them!

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
BTW, I guess I am going to have to go up on the roof to adjust the antenna for a better signal on 17. With the leaves dropping, whatever I was getting their tiny signal bounced off of has changed and I now get some dropouts. Signal down to 35 to 40 instead of 40 to 46. I sure wish they would get their act together. Maybe after I fall off of my roof, I (or my family) will sue them! In the past week, my signal on 17 has dropped 5-10 points as well. I thought it was probably just weather related, but now I wonder if their signal itself has weakened (if it's even possible for them to broadcast at a lower power...) Has anyone else experienced lower signals on 17?

Yup, seeing the same thing you are on 32 Dennis. I've lost some of my zoom/crop features on my 6000 which happens when they're doing 480p.. wasnt like that yesterday. Hopefully they've gotten it right and can keep it right for a good long while now. We'll know more tonight I guess.

As for 17, I've lost a little signal strength too. But by now in my case I know it's a trend and not a fluke. It happened last year at this time (and lasted throughout the winter) too.

This is my first post so if the info I am giving isn't of interest to all of you then I apologize. Today I was testing a new Terk TV35 antenna sitting on a garbage can on pavment behind a building near the corner of Countyline Road and University, here are the results of my test.

Mitsubishi WS65909 integrated HD set. able to receive 17-1, 18-1, 32-1 and 35-1. No signal strength meter is available on this set.

Sony SATHD100 Directv/ATSC tuner. Able to receive 17-1, 18-1, 32-1 and 35-1. Signal meter was inconsistant with what I know about the broadcasters in Denver. For example, I received a 68% signal from 17 but only a 58% signal from PBS; and if I moved the antenna to receive better 18, 17 would stay at 68%.

Samsung SIRT151 ATSC tuner. Able to receive 17-1, 18-1, 32-1 and 35-1. The meter is mesured in bars not in signal percentage and bars are only available when a capturable signal level is present. Here are the bar totals, 17-1: 3 bars, 18-1; 5 bars, 32-1; 10 bars 35-1; lots of bars (to many to count).

Hughes HIRDE86 Directv/ATSC tuner. Able to receive 17-1, 18-1, 32-1 and 35-1. Never read the signal meter on this tuner because I was getting bored with the experiment. I did take this tuner/ antenna combo up and into an attic of an A framed 3 story house near my outdoor test location and found that this antenna will only pick up 35-1 and 32-1 without sound in an indoor install.

For cabling I used Monster cable black shielded RG-6 outdoor sat. wire in a 100 foot run. I hope that this helps anybody who may be looking for a tuner/antenna combo that works.

-Matt

As far as the channel 12 reports, good idea. BTW, I just got a Philips 34PW9818 (no ATSC STB yet), and 12 was always marginal, but this TVs tuner pulls it in quite well. I don't really know what to report...
Also, I noticed some reception data on this thread over the last month that were "new" data points. I'd suggest if you put reception data here, please add them to the coverage thread as well.
THX, Greg

Matt - thanks for the info. I'd second Greg's suggestion to post your data in the Denver Coverage Map thread if you haven't done so already.

I never heard back from Mike Howey today, but I tuned into KDVR and they are definitely broadcasting a 704x480p signal in 16:9 mode, as opposed to yesterday when they were broadcasting 720x480i in 4:3 mode. And watching a little of the Simpsons, the picture was pretty stable. Looking forward to seeing Firefly and John Doe tonight in widescreen, and football on Sunday morning! They are only broadcasting at 9.92 Mbps, though. Their 480i signal was coming in at about 15 Mbps.

Well, watching KDVR in 480p, but they're still having the same aspect ratio problem that they had before with the 16:9 feed. Doesn't look good that the encoder got fixed... :(

Edit: Well, they are flipping switches, and the picture is now widescreen, but the FOX logo sure looks like it's in the wrong place - about 25% into the picture from the right edge. Maybe FOX moved it, and brought it in too far.

Edit2: Whoops...not widescreen anymore, but can be stretched to make widescreen, and confirmed from the programming forum that the FOX logo has shifted at the national level. Waaaaay to far to the left.

Yeah John Doe looks right except for the logo. What is it with this Network (not KDVR) First they go 2 years presuming everybody has 0% overscan.. then when they finally change the logo they act like to protect their logo that everybody has 20%. Geez.

I already replied to Pete's email will my success in getting a very strong (> 80%) signal for 38 when it was on awhile back. My reception of 12 with the same antenna (small amplified antenna in living room) is snowy, but watchable. I guess that I am not a good person to talk if we want Lookout as the primary site.

I think that my point is already on the map for 38, but just in case I am in SE Aurora in the E470, Quincy, Himilaya area (4713 S Lisbon Court to be exact, but that doesn't show up correctly in Mapquest or any other map yet).

Steve

I only scanned once for 38 and was unable to locate, but don't know if there wasn't anything being sent out at that time. I didn't worry about it too much. My reception of 12 stinks, but I am much closer to the Foothills ( West Lakewood/WheatRidge area ).

Jeff

It sounds like the LCG will need good arguments/data to show Squaw is not an acceptable solution. You can bet (S)CARE is going to try and build a case for Squaw. (S)CARE has been pushing Squaw and Eldorado since forever. Now that Eldorado has been shot down I think we can very safely assume they will be trying to get the county believing Squaw is better than Lookout (or Morrison). The county even did some testing from Squaw so I think it's a very safe bet that Squaw will factor heavily in the LCG2 application process.

Sure Squaw would be acceptable, and perhaps even better, to some. Then again it would be worse for others. Either way, for better or for worse, if the scareCo folks determine Squaw is acceptable it will mean more delay as I suspect most stations would find Squaw unacceptable and not pursue a permit (at least initially). Even should they decide to pursue a permit it will take time to do surveys, planning, designing, drawing, etc.

We can help the LCG by posting our reception reports of TV12 and mapping those out. Don't feel bad if you get decent reception of TV12 - a lot of people do. But there are going to be a lot of people who do not get TV12 and we need them to know this or those of us who cannot get TV12 may be left out in the cold if the stations are forced to move to Squaw. I suspect the stations have predicted coverage area maps from Lookout and will/could/did generate one for Squaw. Our little exercise could go a long way towards refining the predicted coverage area for Squaw and once again, I ask folks to post their reception info in the other thread....

One of the emails I got from Pete mentioned these dates:Our hearing dates are set for February 5th, February 12th, and March 5th (if necessary.) It starts later than I’d like but it is at least compact. All the meetings will be in the evening.Who here does not believe March 5th will be necessary? The KRMA/Morrison application required a 3rd hearing (and even a 4th if I remember correctly). These are County Planning and Zoning board hearings, not Commissioner hearings. There could be a significant delay between these hearing dates and the Commissioner hearings (again, look at the KRMA/Morrison application for an example of this delay, which is now over 6 months).

The point I am making is that while I do not find these dates unexpected given past history it does indeed look like the LCG2 app will take the better part of the spring to get a Zoning recommendation and then months and months more before the Commissioners conclude their hearings. It will, undoubtedly, be late summer/early fall (at the earliest) before this is all decided. In the meantime, KMGH refuses to believe they have to do anything to improve their low power coverage area. There are going to be a lot of real disgruntled football fans if their toy transmitter isn't moved before the SuperBowl (especially if the Bronco's make it there) or before next years MNF season.....given the hearing dates shown above I hope KMGH is listening and realizing that something has to be done.....

I think we need to create a simple but effective Powerpoint map to present at the hearings. We can show that the coverage for TV12/38 is not acceptable anywhere on the west side of town.

I wanted to speak at the lst meeting, but i didn't get time. I wanted to mention that if Al Hislop so strongly opposes all RF, and that people shouldn't live near towers, blah, blah, blah... why does he and his family still live on Lookout Mountain?

Originally posted by santellavision
I think we need to create a simple but effective Powerpoint map to present at the hearings. Good idea. All we need are the datapoints :)

Anyone have any news on the Cheyenne HDTV OTA front? It looks like those of us in Fort Collins and the surrounding Northern Colorado area will have to point our aerials Northward.

At these meetings that any of you Denver-ites attend please tell them Northern Colorado must be addressed with any full power tower site they decide on. If they understand Northern Colorado viewership is being lost to Cheyenne, maybe they'll do an about face.

Dan

Dan,

At least with the Jeffco government folks, if you don't live in the "Scare Zone" of Jeffco, don't bother speaking, so bringing up Northern Colorado would be a stretch for them. :)

Jeff

Dan,
It can't hurt to let JeffCo know of all the aspects of their decision. The more of us the better. We need to plan a bit before the next JeffCo meeting, so that we can make a showing of our voice in unison.

I guess most here don't much care for my idea of generating some sort of reception map for TV12 given the overwhelming lack of participation. I am saddened by the fact that we cannot seem to get organized - perhaps everyone feels helpless (I sure know that feeling). You can bet SCARE is well organized opposition and maybe they will never be overcome. I certainly would have liked this whole process to be a no-brainer requiring little or no effort from any of us outside of the TV stations. I guess the majority still feel that should be the case. So be it. I know how to tell when I am pissing upwind. Given that I will quietly step aside and let SCARE decide the future of television along the Front Range.

Geof,
I can generate a Powerpoint with the info. We have a few responses to plot. It would be nice to have at least 10. And then we can also plot the DT38 info to really drive home the point that Squaw will not work for DTV.

So, if anybody else can submit just the info on TV12 to the reception link that would be great.

Denver Reception Link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587)

The lack of response may have more to do with confusion than anything else. For example, I think I had posted already in the reception thread that I get snowy pictures at best in analog for channel 12 and was never able to get a sniff from the DTV signal when I tried that first week. I hadn't posted that information again as I though it was already on the record. I am in Boulder by Lookout Road and 75th. Are you guys looking for everyone to report in once again just on KBDI?? It is easy for us to do, I guess it just wasn't clear to me it was necessary.

Geof, I wouldn't mind making a map on ch12 reception if we had more than 5 responses. I didn't add my reception quality because I get 12 and 38 (when xmitting) perfectly out here in Elizabeth and I don't think that's the data we're looking for.

Anybody have a count of participants in this thread? I asked David Bott a while back is there was any way to count unique ids that have posted in this thread. He said no.

Ron,

We're trying to get the 'real' data on Squaw reception. The problem is with shadowing of the front range. It's fine that you get reception, it's a problem that i don't living in foothills. So, why not let everyone submit their TV12 data to the reception thread.

Originally posted by santellavision
So, why not let everyone submit their TV12 data to the reception thread. I'm not stopping anybody. I said I'll make a map if we have enough responses -- the 7 to date don't constitute enough for me to waste my time.

That's why I was curious on the potential number we're dealing with. I wonder how many ids have posted to this thread at least once in the past x days/months/years (lurkers will always be an unknown number). I'm sure there's a way to extract that info from the web site logs, but I'm also sure the site administrators don't want to do that type of low-level digging for us.

Geof,

I don't see the problem with what you are suggesting, you just may be getting a little short on your fuse a bit. Please remember that we just came off a long weekend and you only suggested this at the end of last week.

The extra attitude toward the members here is uncalled for, though I do understand your frustration given the historical length of this thread.

Just an opinion.

Jeff

The extra attitude toward the members here is uncalled for, though I do understand your frustration given the historical length of this thread. I have "no extra attitude" or even attitude for that matter. One thing we have not been around here is organized - I thought I said that in a non-condemning manner. Nonetheless that is the reality of the situation. So be it, I am fine with that, but like I said I am going to bow out (but evidently not as quietly as I hoped/thought).

Good luck to all of us.

My info for 38 is posted on the reception link. I don't have a VHF antenna but Channel 12 is unwatchable from my location with rabbit ears.

I live in Jeffco and will be glad to attend any evening hearings in Golden.

Geof,

I was referring to your comment that you can tell when you are p*ssing into the wind ( paraphrased to be sure ).

Please don't "take your ball and go home". That would be silly.

Jeff

Hi guys,

The way I had originally planned for the Data Collection Thread to work is that everyone creates one entry (post a message). Then when you want to update your message with new facts, do it by editing that message.

This was before Ron actually took it upon himself to generate a map from the data. So now, I would propose that after you have made a modification to your main entry, post a message to that thread simply to alert Ron that you made a change. Do not post a message for Ron if you are simply clarifying antenna type or anything like that. Only post a new message if you have made a change that would need to be incorporated in Ron's maps at some point.

I believe the request on Channel 12 is for a new data-point, and the fact that you have or have not Channel 38 listed is inconsequential. So anyone that would like to contribute to the Channel 12 data point, please modify your entry in the Data Collection Thread, and then post there, so Ron will know you added it.

All data on the Channel 12 point would be appreciated. Yes data as well as No data. Data is Data is Data is...

I hope that clarifies the Data Collection Thread. I'd like to keep it as concise as possible for Ron and the other reader's sake. (Sorry if this sounds preachy/obvious)

With that said, I haven't gotten around to adding the Channel 12 data-point to my listing yet, but will be doing it soon. I've wanted to check the signal one more time so that I post good, current, data, but I've been busy.

With respect to the number of people that have posted to the thread, I believe it is well over 100. I remember the mailing list administrator saying something about that. (He had also asked to give the mailing list to someone else, due to other commitments keeping him from actively participating. Did anyone take him up on that? Should we?)

-John

EDIT: You Northern Colorado viewers please post your Data Points in the thread too. Your No Votes will speak volumes on the Map. Many of you probably didn't post because you thought it was obvious... but again data is data is data is... and if we are going to use this data before JeffCo, again it makes sense to have as many No's as Yes's. You might want to post your analog channels too, just to compare and contrast Lookout to Squaw. Heck we might all should.

FWIW - I am finally able to get both 18 and 35 reliably way out here in Elizabeth (SE of Denver). I thought I would post my findings in case it helps someone else who is borderline on getting in a low-power DTV channel.

Although I am surprised it works and I don't recommend it, I ended up with two moderate-sized amplifiers: a 16db signal amplifier at the antenna, 60' to my basement home-run spot, a 13db distribution amplifier, then into my satellite multi-switch, and another 30'-40' to each of 4 rooms. I couldn't get beyond my tuners threshold (especially for ch35) using one or the other amplifier, only using both. What I found out was key, was the FM Trap built into the signal amplifier that I didn't have in my other amplifier. With the FM trap switched out, I'm still just below my tuners threshold for a lock, which is a 34 signal level. With the FM trap switched in, the signal level on ch35 is 52!

I don't know if it will help, but trying an FM trap at your antenna, with or without an amplifier, may work for you as well to effectively get some of these low-power signals. Who knows, maybe some of you can get ch17 and make it the "Lucky 20"!

This from Dir. of Eng. at KBDI:We did indeed get the grant and will start ordering equipment in the next couple months. However being on Squaw Mt., I am afraid that i might not be able to get the equipment on the hill in the weather. I will let you know we do more testing as soon as i am informed. Thank You for your interest and please keep in touch Looks like it will be awhile before we see a blip on ch38 again.

I see that the FCC has OK'd the ATT/Comcast merger:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/834643.asp

Any thoughts on whether this is good news for HD via cable for Colorado??

Originally posted by mknoebel
Any thoughts on whether this is good news for HD via cable for Colorado??
I suspect it is not totally bad news, because AT&T was never pushing HD and only had it as an option in a few markets. On their web page faq section they claim their Digital Cable is better than HDTV because you don't have to buy an expensive TV to watch it. Comcast is offering HD in more markets now and probably has plans in the works to expand into more markets that are currently part of Comcast.

On the other hand, the new combined company is going to be quite saddled with debt. With the level of dedication we have from the local stations in Denver to provide lots of high quality full power HD broadcasts, this is probably not the one of the first markets they will be going after with the limited capital they will spend on HD expansion. I guess it will get here eventually, but whether that is before LCGx is approved and built is not at all clear to me.

I was setting up my HD-200 last night and suddenly there was a local channel that looked stunning. Channel 31.1 was broadcasting HDTV and I could get it at my house in Fort Collins. With a attic antenna (with sagging elements too)

I guess this will make me more determined to install a roof top antenna with a rotor. Though the picture was great - I don't watch any programs (except maybe football) on that station.

Reggie

Originally posted by A4Short
Channel 31 was broadcasting HDTV and I could get it at my house in Fort Collins. Reggie,
Fox has the highest power DTV signal in the Denver area. However, Fox does not broadcast HDTV. You must've seen a show in widescreen 480p.

Could be - the analog signal I get is terrible so the picture looked much better. It was wide screen - though the commericals etc were boxed on all four sides then.

Well I guess I have a long way to go if I can't tell the difference between 480p and the higer resolution.

It was an exciting discovery.

Well, Reggie, as you probably know, the channel you got is probably the only one you will get currently even with a rooftop antenna. However, we can look forward to Cheyenne CBS as early as next month, and then maybe Denver's KWGN in the spring, and with some luck the Cheyenne NBC and KBDI PBS by late Spring. At least that is something. It will certainly keep the rotator spinning.

Since I found a good deal (I think) on an antenna, I have now taken the plunge and ordered a Winegard CA-7080 antenna, Winegard AP-8275 pre-amp, and a Channel Master rotator. The antenna isn't really large, but if the gain charts can be believed it should do an excellent job on UHF and high-band VHF (where the Cheyenne NBC will reside on Channel 11). I also ordered an 8-VSB cartridge for my northern version of the Echostar 6000.

I'm probably jumping the gun, but maybe I'll avoid putting up my antenna in the bitter cold of mid-January.

Mark

Mark,
Please let us know how the Antenna et all works! I still have to get an antenna to point North towards Cheyenne. Was hoping to find one of the BIG RS Yagis that have been discontinued (figured that at $5.00 I could just recycle the al if it didn't work. but the only one around is in Ft. Collins, and they said it is missing A LOT of parts (it comes in pieces). So I will probably have to actually BUY an antenna.
THX, Greg

Mark,

I can't install the antenna myself - too high (walk out basement makes the house three stories) so I will have it done. There is a guy in Greely who does installs - don't know anyone in FTC who does.
http://forums.audiworld.com/other/msgs/584454.phtml

The 7080 is the type I was planning to install ( will most likely go with a Channel Master 3678 http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/c1.htm and the Channel Master Rotor.

Thanks for the info on the stations.

Bump to first page

Hot,
Have you heard any 'new' news on KUSA's Low-Power Republic Plaza X-mitter?

No I have not. Today I called Roger Ogden GM of KUSA. They are in meetings all day with corporate big whigs who are visiting, so someone will call me back tomorrow with the information. I will post as soon as I know more.

Sounds good. I would love to see the Tonight Show in HD locally since the rest of the country raves about the quality ( being shot in HDCam ).

Jeff

This is strictly my own speculation, but I wonder if the meeting yesterday is still going on. You know, once you get a room full of executives patting each other on the back about their great work, its difficult to get them to stop. I wonder if the major point of the meeting was to come up with another 100 excuses for the FCC and the people of Denver as to why KUSA can't get an HD signal on the air in any format. You know, stuff like....

"We can't get our HDTV signal on the air because....":

We can't find that stupid antenna flange. Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

Our installers can't work, they all have broken shoulder blades from patting each other on the back about our great ratings. Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

We're already number one in the market, what are you gonna do about it? Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

Adele and Kathy won't look as good in HD and we might lose our ratings. Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

HDTV? No one out there has a receiver to pick it up anyway, after all, how many people complain to KMGH when their signal has a problem? Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

HDTV? Well, we plan to start on that just as soon as we finish our new series of commercials talking about how we all love living in Colorado. Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

HDTV? Well we plan to start on that just as soon as our construction team finishes building that new cabinet for all those awards our news program is going to get this year. Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

HDTV? No one in Colorado has even seen it, so why would they want us to broadcast that way anyway? Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

Well, gee, we would be on the air, but for those darn folks up on Lookout that wanted a responsible application for our new tower. Who could have seen that one coming? Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

*****


Anyone else want to add to this list of excuses for KUSA. Maybe we can bundle up a bunch of them and send them to Mr. Ogden so he can use them in his next interview. By the way, Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station?

:cool:

Originally posted by gkanders
I still have to get an antenna to point North towards Cheyenne.
I've already bought mine. Our house in Fort Collins is almost done. As soon as we move in (mid-January or so), I'm installing two antennas -- one pointing north, and one pointing south. Since there may be three Cheyenne DTV stations live by that time (if you believe antennaweb.org), my DTV receivers will probably be connected to the antenna that points north ;) . I bet the folks that sell ad space on those stations are pretty happy about now...

It's pretty ironic, actually. I've already started replying to the Wyoming jokes (e.g. "Fort Collins -- Where Wyoming Shops (tm)") by pointing out that Denver is probably about three years behind Wyoming when it comes to getting real DTV.

BTW, I've seen a lot of posts from Fort Collins, Loveland, Greeley, Wellington, etc -- anybody up for a Northern Colorado DTV thread?

- digiphotonerd

JM,

I think KCNC should start promoting that they're number 1 in the market and Colorado's leading station in HD. (No slight to KRMA, but i bet KCNC would get higher ratings if they start to tally arbitron's for DTV)

Originally posted by digiphotonerd

BTW, I've seen a lot of posts from Fort Collins, Loveland, Greeley, Wellington, etc -- anybody up for a Northern Colorado DTV thread?

- digiphotonerd

Yes--I figured we would start a Southeast Wyoming/Northern Colorado thread at the first sign of a DTV signal from Cheyenne.

But feel free to start one prior to that if you like!

Mark

Did anyone else notice the signal strength problems on KCNC last night? I sent a message to David Layne about it and he replied back almost immediately that they were going off air this morning at 2 to check out the transmitter. On my Dish 6000 I was getting a signal of around 64 when I usually am about 84 and the signal was breaking up. On my hipix, I was getting a signal of 72 when it's usually about 85, with no breakups.

I was receiving 17 stronger than 35 last night...hopefully there's nothing seriously wrong with KCNC's transmitter!

Originally posted by santellavision
JM,

I think KCNC should start promoting that they're number 1 in the market and Colorado's leading station in HD. (No slight to KRMA, but i bet KCNC would get higher ratings if they start to tally arbitron's for DTV)

Ernie
I heartily agree, and I sure hope the folks at KCNC are reading this. I have seen a couple of mentions of DTV on KMGH where they trumpet the 'fact' that they were the first in Denver on the air in DTV (although there is no mention of the fact no one can pick them up--I suspect a few folks will notice come Super Bowl time, especially if the Broncos make it there). KCNC should really start to run some adds to mention their signal just to rub KUSA's nose in it. I still don't expect to see KUSA on the air this year myself, I am betting there will be 'flange' problems. Remember, according to their own words they just ordered their gear a couple of weeks ago. BTW, "Did we mention we're (KUSA) Number 1 and Colorado's leading station? "

Mark
Didn't get home from class till late last night and then watched H. Potter on HBO West in HD. Maybe the recommendation for a KCNC advertisement was a tad pre-mature. Sure hope not.

I did notice the problems with the signal on 35 last night. I was getting a lot of dropouts.

I hope they get it fixed soon

I did have KCNC on Monday night for a while and didn't see any problems at all. Whatever the issue is, it must be new.

Anybody receive the ListenUp mailer? They have a really nice 2 page explanation of the local DTV situation. It's not completely perfect, but close enough to explain our DTV debacle to most DTV newby's.

They have listed the current low-power stations locations (including KBDI, KUSA & KWGN). Even the problem of not being able to receive KDBI near the foothills due to the Front Range shadowing problem. But, they don't use the DT channel numbers (?), have DT32 Faux as coming from Lookout instead of Mt. Morrison, have KUSA listed as from Republic (A bit premature) and KBDI printed as KDBI - Oh well.

I especially like that they made a point of KDVR-Faux as being only standard definition.
They also list all the current HD on both Directv, Dish and nothing on cable - Nice job.

Anybody getting channel 35 right now? I checked it I ain't picking it up. I'm getting channel 18 just fine. I had this happen before and it was my antenna, but I thought I had that solved.

Just curious

Thanks
Joe

? I thought DT32 Faux WAS coming from Lookout?

Hi everyone!
Ernie just got his new Marantz S2, and since he and I are planning to do a side-by-side comparison with my S1/Firehawk at my place in the near future (exact time and date TBD), we thought we would extend an invitation to the other loyal Denver HDTV thread folks to come on over and check it out. If anyone would care to bring along their own PJ for a comparison, the more the merrier. Also, for those of you who have never seen ABC (17) in Hi-Def, you can see that for the first time as well as I live just 5 blocks from the CH 17 "bell tower" in Washington Park.

If anyone has a DVD player or HTPC/DVD with DVI-D output, we would really love to check it out connected to Ernie's S2

Please RSVP to me via PM if you are interested. We will announce the time/date as soon as it is determined. BTW, Ernie will be doing his part as co-host per this excerpt from his last email to me; "If you feel like entertaining a few. I'll bring some (good) beer." There you have it.

Finally, for those who remember from one of my previous posts, I finally finished replacing the extremely low quality RG6/U quad shield coax that had been installed in my house with Belden 1694A and Canare connectors. It was very time consuming but the results are worth it. Without making ANY other changes besides the cable swap-out, my Dishnetwork reception numbers are as follows (the weather was completely clear, calm, and cool on both occasions):
SAT old RG6/U Belden
110 79 89
119 82 94
61.5 90 106, no kidding!As I mentioned, I made 0 other changes, so barring an increase in E*'s output signal, I would have to say that this was time well spent.

35 was dead here too last time I looked.

Yes, it looks like 35 is off the air. :(

Just in time for the eagerly-anticipated (by some other people, I'm sure :D) Victoria's Secret fashion show.

Darnit! :(

Crud ... well at least it isn't just me this time.

Thanks guys.

Later
Joe

dr_mal,
KDVR DT32 Faux broadcasts from the top of good 'ol Mt. Morrison. KWGN will hopefully be the first to digitally broadcast from Lookout... We'll hear the JeffCo appeal decision Dec 4th, 9am.

Santellavision,
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but FOX is indeed on Lookout Mountain. If you look up to Lookout from due east, it is the southernmost painted tower.

edit- I guess it is the southernmost tower no matter where you view it from.:p

-Wabisabi

P.S. On the Mount Morrison tall tower are: Ch14, Ch20, and an FM (used to KIMN, not sure what the call sign is now) On the shorter tower are: Ch59 and two lowpower tv stations.

KCNC came back online later last night, but they were still having the signal strength problems from Tuesday night. I didn't check this morning to see if they were still on, though. Plus, the VS show wasn't in HD, was it?

A quick look at the map shows the KDVR tower location on Lookout.
http://bricklin.org/AVSForum/Map_files/Lookout_map.gif

I never received a callback from KUSA. Today I called again. I was told the new on air date for digital KUSA-DT is before December 25th, 2002.

They expect to meed the Holiday Season.

Has it been a year (almost) already since KCNC-DT went on the air? If KUSA-DT gets going just in time for the write-off (I mean holidays) this year, maybe next year at this time we can start getting KMGH-DT outside of their toybox.

jm and Geof -- I'm starting to understand now how you guys periodically stop posting because you're just too bitter at the whole situation. Now that I've been around for a while, I'm starting to feel the same way :(

Oh and Mike aka Hot -- thanks for the update. I've been vaguely curious what NBC's been showing the last year, but haven't had the opportunity to tune in. MAYBE with a HD signal, I'll bother watching KUSA from time to time again.

I also received a response from Don Perez at KUSA which said they would have their low power signal available "before the end of the year".

Has anyone else noticed a lip synch problem on the "new" FOX-DT 32 channel?

Hey Iwanthd

Yes, I have noticed a lip synch problem on DT-32 as well. I usually only watch sports up there so it isn't too bad, but yes it is a problem.

I still amazes me that these people that are broadcasting digital channels don't watch them themselves. If the did watch wouldn't they notice these problems.

I bet that no one that works for DT-17 has even seen it at home. What a shame, unless of course they can walk to work.

Later
Joe

A little OT --
Did anyone watch the Avs on HDNET last night from the Pepsi Center? I love it when they do "Sights & Sounds" and you can hear the crowd going "Get it f*%#ing outta there!" I even heard the Fox guys saying "You gotta love those sights and sounds of the game"

Ron
Didn't see it on HDNet since I was at the game. BTW, that was NOT me yelling the obscenities, although you may have heard me boo on a couple of occasions.
:D

drmal
I think you are starting to comprehend the frustration involved for some of us 'old timers' on the thread. We have heard some of these self serving statements from the stations and others for soooo long it just makes you want to scream at times. It just wasn't this hard for the other 500 or whatever stations that are on the air, and I don't doubt some of them had to work with/against some Nimby groups in their towns too. In some cases, the groups may have even been better organized.

BTW, my reception on KUSA ("Did we mention we're Number 1 and Colorado's leading station? " ) and KMGH ("Did we mention we were first on the air in DTV format in Colorado") is still zero. Anyone else?

Ron,

I had some buddies over last night to watch - It was great to switch back and forth between Fox Sports and HDnet. What a contrast. I am afraid I may be responsible for my friends having to take money from their retirement funds to buy new TVs.

One guy said he could not turn on his TV when he got home after watching the game on HD.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
Has anyone else noticed a lip synch problem on the "new" FOX-DT 32 channel? The lip synch was pretty bad on "24" last Tuesday. I'm fairly new to digital TV, but the technical problems that most stations seem to (still) be experiencing are not making it easy to justify to my wife all the money I've spent...

Speaking of the AVs on HDNet, wouldn't it stir up some interest for HD if the games on HDNet were listed in the sports section of the POST and RM News? It seems to me that all interested parties would benefit if Joe Six-Puck started asking questions about HDNet, especially for the games that are not broadcasst locally on Fox Sports Net.

I think it would be great if the Post and RMN would list ANY game (not just the AV's and Rockies) in there sports section under the "On TV Today" section, usually page 2 of the sports page. They list all the games that are on ESPN and ESPN2 but not HDNet. I think if they did this people would start paying attention, there might end up being a game on that they want to watch and it would say "HDNet", then they would be curious enough to go find out about it.

Just my 2 cents

Later
Joe

Funny you guys mention this - I just sent them a email yesterday about this subject - not showing HDnet on the second page of the sports and not showing it in the sunday TV guide.

Thanks guys for letting me know about Fox being on Lookout. I swear we've been talking about them broadcasting from Morrision. I feel like an idiot!

So, I gave my Dad my Mits RPTV (Lives at Parker & Iliif area) Set it up with a Dish 6000 and he's sooooo happy. I also got him a small ChannelMaster 3021 Multi-Bow UHF antenna that i would mount on the roof next week. I told him then he might get 18, 32 & 35. We just throw a wire on it, set it in the living room and bada-bing... all the stations including DT17! That antenna is awesome!

Hey, anyone catch this news item:
http://email.BroadcastingCable.com/cgi-bin2/flo?y=eJ4I0GfJp40FJN0Bsle0An

Lower antenna heights and lower power can actually have a worse radiation effect than full power/full height!

Mark,

You have to be a subscriber to view the article.

Reggie

Sorry - I didn't realize that. It regarded fines issued to an FM station in NM for violating radiation limits. The most relevant paragraph from the article is:

The station's transmitting antenna, mounted on a park service observation tower, was lower than authorized and, at only 40 percent of its authorized power, created fields that exceeded radiation limits by more than 300 percent, according to the FCC.

I'd copy the whole article here, but I believe that would be a no-no for copyright.

It's funny that it was an FM station. On Lookout and Morrison, all RF exposure violations have been for FMs. I believe that some FMs had to turn the power down to below 30% to meet the (new) FCC limits.

-Wabisabi

<not at all sarcastic mode>Why do we even need FM transmitters anyway? Doesn't everybody get their music from XM or Sirius these days?
</not at all sarcastic mode>

We actually have a widescreen Faux football game this morning - St Louis at Washington. There's a lot of mpeg2 artifacting because Faux is only broadcasting at 3.91 mbs, but other than that, it's widescreen. Actually, the most prominent thing that I've noticed so far is that ATSC can actually resolve that really odd color the Washington jersies are - NTSC makes their jersies look almost black because it can't resolve the color. They actually look kind of off-burgandy in ATSC.

drmal,

Lewis and Floorwax are even on XM. No need at all to listen to local radio. ;)

During a commercial, I checked channel 16, which has been one of those stupid shopping channels. Today, there was no signal. Perhaps KUSA is actually getting ready to test something!

Has anyone complained to Faux about their sound sync problem? It is OK during a football game, but when watching people talking, it is just too far off.

Has Ch. 32 dropped off, or is it just me? Will snowy weather effect my reception?

Well, I got my antenna up (before the snow hit) and got my first look at Fox KDVR-DT on 32.

One thing I notice is that the black level of the signal is quite a bit higher than for the analog or satellite HDTV channels. I have to turn down the brightness or it tends to look washed out. Does anyone else see this also, or is this a characteristic of OTA digital on the Echostar 6000? I only have one OTA channel, so I can't compare to anything else.

Speaking of that, I can't lock on the "local" Fort Collins Fox KCFT-DT on channel 21 at all. I can get the meter to bounce around a little, but that's it. Almost certainly this is due to multipath, even with my directional antenna. The analog translator on 22 also provides a useless signal with major ghosting, no matter which way I point my antenna (it is on a rotator).

I also found the lip-sync problem on KDVR to be extremely annoying--I hope they get that fixed soon. Anyone have an e-mail address where we can send technical problems to them?

It appears that both NFL games were in widescreen today (though the second one was, then wasn't, then was again). They were a significant improvement over the analog version and over the NFL on CBS, though obviously far short of true HD. I was suprised to see so many digital artifacts. I see markdl says they only use 3.91 Mbps. What are they doing with the rest of their bandwidth?

Now that I have an antenna, I'll put my limited reception info in the data thread.

Mark

I still haven't been able to pick up anything on the Ft. Collins Faux (21), either. And I don't think anyone has.

I noticed a lot of breakups during the football games today on 32. Anyone else, or maybe the snow caused my signal to be a bit weak??

KDVR's signal today was definitely weaker than normal today - I was getting a 55 signal strength from them when usually I'm around 68 or so (my antenna is pointed almost directly opposite of Lookout towards downtown). I emailed them myself earlier today to ask what they were doing with the rest of their bandwidth. When they got their encoder reinstalled and working a few weeks back they were transmitting at 12 mbs, and there wasn't nearly so much mpeg artifacting.

Mike Howey is our engineering contact at KDVR - his email is mhowe426@fox.com

3.91 mbs is extremely low. DVD is usally between 4-6 mbs, the "analog" digital channel 17-2 (KMGH's multicasting channel) is sent at 4.5 mbs. KCNC transmits at 19.0 mbs and KRMA transmits at 18.0 mbs. They've got 19.2 mbs to work with - I want to know where the other 15 mbs is going.

As for lipsync problems on Faux, honestly, I haven't seen it in the limited amount of Faux viewing I've done recently. Consists of watching Firefly a week ago Friday night and football today. Before that, I haven't watched it at all. Lip sync looked ok to me today, though.

I watched some of the afternoon football game on KDVR-DT ch 32 in wide-screen. It was not HDTV but it was better than NTSC.

Now if we can get KUSA-DT on the air. Friday evening I watched Law and Order SVI in HDTV for the first time on Bell ExpressVu. It was great.

mbuchana

Congratuations on your install - and glad you beat the snow.

What antenna did you install? Still debating getting my antenna up. I only get 31.1 on my Radio Shack in the attic. I really think I will get one of those VHS and UHF combos.

Reggie

I have noticed that FOX 31 and 32 both look washed out, although the GB game was better. I will try the brightness setting. Thanks.

I sent Mike an email about the lip sync and the black level brighness issue. I will post any response I get.

I just got a reply from Mike at KDVR. I had asked him why they were broadcasting at 3.91 mbs, and here's his response:

The encoder is back in service - sort of. The reason why the bit rate is so low is because we get unacceptable errors when we increase it to something more viewable.. Those errors go away when we back it off to what you noticed.. We now have an analyzer from the manufacturer on line with the system.. Hopefully, they can find the source of the errors and we can increase back up to something usable.. Until then we need to do what is necessary to get the thing working 100% again.. Therefore you will likely see it bounce among different rates..

Also, Mike will be leaving KDVR this week for a position at the FOX station in Tampa. He told me to contact Pete Bangas at pbang353@foxtv.com about DTV issues. Pete's taking over for Mike.

Has anybody heard...Is either NFL game on Thursday going to be in HD (well at least for KCNC...Faux Digital for FOx). I've been enjoying the SEC NCAA games in HD this season and would love to show the family some HD Football.

Thanks for the info, mark. Yeah fairly static close ups looked pretty good on the football but distant shots were pretty bad.

And Brian, I dont believe theres been any announcement from CBS for Turkey Day NFL but Fox's game is to be in widescreen for what it's worth.

I've been playing with a new toy I picked up a few days ago. A W-VHS recorder that tapes HD in analog. It works really well (certainly not perfect digital copies but impressive none-the-less) though the 2 "shortcomings" are no 5.1 audio (Pro logic only) and the blank tapes are really expensive.

But considering it simply takes HD component input, and I already have 3 HD STB's from 3 diff providers it's much more sensible for me than to get into D-VHS at the moment since I have nothing with firewire out anyway. Plus all I really want it for is timeshifting all the Satellite HD channels and OTA, but not any archiving, so tape cost isnt really any factor. And also far more H/DTV channels/programs than not arent currently sending out 5.1 regardless.

Anyway, for me it's a cool little toy and it's about time to have the capability thats always been so otherwise taken for granted.

Dan
I need more details on this HD recorder you purchased and how you like it. I have the same problem you do, three HD output boxes (from four input sources-five if you count both OTA receivers) all with analog only outputs, and I am not planning on replacing even of them any time soon just to satisfy the MPAA. I too am mostly interested in time shifting some shows (or maybe saving a Super Bowl tape or such). I am VERY curious what you bought and how you like it. Keep me informed please either in the thread or by PM, whichever you prefer. Thanks.

Originally posted by A4Short
mbuchana

Congratuations on your install - and glad you beat the snow.

What antenna did you install? Still debating getting my antenna up. I only get 31.1 on my Radio Shack in the attic. I really think I will get one of those VHS and UHF combos.

Reggie

Reggie,

It was a Winegard CA-7080. I posted reception details in the Data Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587&pagenumber=4)

It is a VHF/UHF combo, but not a particularly large one. I was concerned that if I got one too big and installed it where I wanted to, it would "shade" my satellite dish and cause problems. However, a bigger antenna would work better for some of the analog channels (particularly channel 6) if that is important to you. I think this one will be OK for the UHF digitals, and maybe also give me a shot at the NBC digital on channel 11 out of Cheyenne when it gets going. I got the antenna, rotator and amp at spectravox.com (http://www.spectravox.com) who seemed to have very good prices and delivered promptly.

I can see why people don't generally mess much with antennas for analog reception anymore. You can tweak and tweak the orientation and get good results on one channel while only making things worse on another. But for digital it is much simpler, except of course around here with all of the low-power and no-power signals.

Mark

Originally posted by markdl
I just got a reply from Mike at KDVR. I had asked him why they were broadcasting at 3.91 mbs, and here's his response:

...


Mark(dl),

Thanks very much for the info.

It was kind of strange seeing the grass detail "fill in" behind the football players as they moved across the field in distant shots. It looked a little like they had a cloud following them. It was subtle, but still noticeable and annoying. I've seen pretty much the same thing on Dish/EVu standard channels.

The high black level issue seemed worse on "local" upconverts (like their newscast) than on the game, but everything looked a lot better if I compensated by turning the brightness down.

I haven't checked them for lip sync again, but during half time the sound seemed to be a fraction of a second ahead of the video.

Mark

jm,

I sent you a pm also but in regards to w-vhs it really boils down to availability of the units and/or how much you want to pay. Theres 2 "different" types yet they're basically the same thing. Theres the JVC PRO models that are still currently being sold but the MSRP's on them are like $3K and $5K which of course is absurd even if they didnt have the shortcomings.

The other type is the Japanese consumer models from a few years ago when Japan first got into HD (it was called Hi-Vision). They're basically the identical unit as the JVC's but with some extra features like Timers for example since they were consumer VCR's.. albeit heavy duty ones. They do VHS and S-VHS also of course.

In either case it's really hard to get into one for much less than 1500.00 whenever I've seen them, either from other members on AVS that have/had them, or from ebay. There was also a member or 2 on here in the past that lived in Japan and could ship out used consumer models from over there but again at the same 1000-1500 pricepoint.

I got "lucky" and found one on ebay a couple weeks ago. One of the Japanese ones that a guy (who also had a bunch of other Japan market electronics) happened to be selling. He wasnt focusing on the HD aspect of it.. just that it was a "hardcore" VCR so to speak. I paid just under 800.00 for it and it's in beautiful shape. I think it was in a board room somewhere for most of it's life.

Anyway, I've already laid out what it does and it does a fine job. It uses D-9 tapes that cost about 40.00 for a three hour tape, or 30.00 for a 2 hour. That why again, archiving would certainly be prohibitive.

Another member on AVS that I think you're familiar with, Randall Paris Dark, (an HD producer) once mentoned to me he had a JVC Pro model or 2 that he'd sell, including some pre-recorded tapes he made but he needed like $2K for one so it was a little too rich for me.

Fellow Football Fans,

I am having a interesting problem on FOX. When commercials or a non-wide screen program is being broadcast, I get a perfect picture. When the broadcast is in wide screen I get a translucent dark gray or black cover over the picture (it is in 2 or 3 stripes about 1/4 of the picture hieght per stripe). I have no problems with any of my other reception of progressive or interlaced broadcasts. I use a panny stb and I am wondering if it has to do with the RGB contectors. Any help, much appreciated.

Doug

Later that day: A rescan of available local channels seems to have done the trick. The 2 previous scans produced results of KDUR 32-1 and PBS1-DT both carrying FOX. The most recent scan produced 32-1 with no call letters and 32-1 with the KDVR call letters. I recieve the signal on the 32-1 without the call signals.

Anyone notice that recently titantv is listing the *correct* content for KRMA-DT? I pulled it up last night and the listings were for what was on 18 (well 80 I guess), not what was on 6.

For us Northern folks, I emailed Peter Bangas about not being able to pull in Fox 21 out of Ft. Collins. Here was his reply:

No problem with KFCT-DT transmitter channel 21. The transmitter is located about one mile east of Pierce, Colorado which is most likely to the North of you. We monitor our transmitted signal from atop Horse tooth mountain and have experienced few problems. I Hope this info helps you tune in..

FYI: We receive KDVR-DT channel 32 in Pierce, Colorado. You may have success tuning this channel in.

Please contact me if you have any further questions...

Peter Bangas
Assistant Chief Engineer
FOX Television Stations
100 E. Speer Blvd
Denver, CO 80203
303-595-3131

I also emailed Joan Turner at KGWN in Cheyenne to see if things were still on target. She replied that they were busy at the site and still hoping for a mid to late December rollout.

I liked watching wide screen football on FOX channel 32. It is not HDTV but it is still good.

Originally posted by mknoebel
For us Northern folks, I emailed Peter Bangas about not being able to pull in Fox 21 out of Ft. Collins. Here was his reply:

No problem with KFCT-DT transmitter channel 21. The transmitter is located about one mile east of Pierce, Colorado which is most likely to the North of you. We monitor our transmitted signal from atop Horse tooth mountain and have experienced few problems. I Hope this info helps you tune in..

FYI: We receive KDVR-DT channel 32 in Pierce, Colorado. You may have success tuning this channel in.

Please contact me if you have any further questions...

Peter Bangas
Assistant Chief Engineer
FOX Television Stations
...

Interesting info about them monitoring the signal from Horsetooth mountain. That probably would eliminate multipath problems.This page (http://www.100000watts.com/tv/CO.html) suggests also that the FC translator is currently very low power (.88 kw), but I suspect multipath is the real problem.

Fortunately we do have KDVR-DT 32. Lip sync now seems OK, black level still too high. I saw the Phantom Menace the other night. It looked pretty good (even presented OAR), but not DVD quality. I suspect their bit rate is still lower than it should be, and when they get that fixed, the black level problem may go away too.

Good news that KGWN Cheyenne is on track!

Mark

Originally posted by mbuchana

Fortunately we do have KDVR-DT 32
Good news that KGWN Cheyenne is on track!

Mark

Mark,

We have KDVR 32 to fall back on. But when KGWN is on the air I'm pointing the antenna north, so I won't be able to get it anymore. That's why I was checking on 21.

Agreed -- good news on KGWN!!:cool:

Originally posted by mknoebel
Mark,

We have KDVR 32 to fall back on. But when KGWN is on the air I'm pointing the antenna north, so I won't be able to get it anymore. That's why I was checking on 21.



In case it helps, I sent Pete an e-mail describing my reception problems from 21 and 22.

You may have another alternative, with KLWY-DT (Cheyenne Fox) supposedly going live soon. I don't know if they will carry the Fox Widescreen stuff, we'll just have to wait and see.

I am able to get a very snowy picture from KKTU (Cheyenne NBC analog on 33) with my setup. It will be interesting to see if I will be able to get their digital channel.

Hmmm, maybe it IS time to start a Northern Colorado/Southeast Wyoming thread...

Mark

Dan
Been busy with the holidays and house remodeling/repair from my 'water problems' and haven't spent much time on AVS. On the plus side, most of the work is now done and I am moving things back in to my basement....yea, and my upstairs shower has now been re-tiled and is in the process of drying and setting up!
Thanks for posting the information on the Panasonic Recorder. I knew about the JVC and have looked at them, but I wasn't aware of the Panasonic. I will spend some time checking in to these units more. I haven't felt a big need for HD recording yet, but I know it is inevitable that I will. I was hoping that someone would make a unit overseas that recorded on a hard drive and could dump to a recordable disc instead of tapes before I jumped in, but it doesn't look like the MPAA will ever allow that to happen, at least not in a consumer price range. Thanks for the information in the pm too.
Just for insight, how would you rate a playback video picture? Would you say it is: about the same as a DVD? Much better than DVD, but not quite original quality? Worse than DVD but better than Faus Widescreen?

Hi jm,

Well the playback is really really good. Afterall, it is recording in full bandwidth albeit analog as opposed to digital. I've recorded segments of all types of content, be it HDNet hockey, PBS HD, Primetime dramas, movies, sitcoms, etc and while it usually wouldnt fool you or me I dont suppose on "blind" A/B testing... friends and relatives would never know the difference, thats for sure. It's not like it turns The District on CBS into looking like 24 on Fox. ;)

Aside from knowing the theory of D-VHS being exact copies, I dont have anything to compare it to as taping goes because I've never been a big taper even before digital tv. Only had cheapass VCR's that I really never used anyway.

Like people who've used say the best S-VHS recorders in the past to tape good NTSC sources. How would they rate the playback of those type recordings? Virtually, but not quite.. indistinguishable from live viewing? Thats about how'd I'd define this I guess.

On film based stuff since theres so many variables in the transfers theres certainly no dead giveaway at all that it's a recording. And on video based stuff it's just a hair less than the original. Like yesterday I was taping some of the college hoops on HDNet. Then I was starting and stopping the tape while still tuned to the live action of the game for comparing. It's not like I ever forgot which was which because I'm specifically looking for any little flaw since the unit is so new to me, but the tape was damn close enough.

I guess the best way to sum it up is to say that theres not going to be much programming that I'm going to feel that I must watch live instead of on tape because I'd be worried about a lessor experience visually via the tape.

I would say if anything, the reason why I'd feel the need to watch something live would be because of audio as in the case of an action movie or something where true 5.1 sound (or lack thereof) could make a difference.

I watched some football on Faux 32 yesterday. It was OK - just OK. I had a few picture freezes and sound glitches. Anyone else? At one point the widescreen disappeared, so I flipped to the Sunday Ticket feed. It was better than the Sunday Ticket picture, but that's about it.

And still no luck with the Ft. Collins (21) feed.

I also watched a small bit of the 32 feed and had a few breakups, etc. Not any more than I have been used to with Fox for quite a while.
Jeff

Hi guys. I watched some of the faux game too, and report back about the same. A few breakups, but overall better than the 4x3 stuff.

Here's a (late) KRMA DT heads up...

The program The Face: Jesus in Art # 101 will be fed in HD on Monday, 12/2/02 at 16:00 (MT).

The program The Face: Jesus in Art # 102 will be fed in HD on Tuesday, 12/3/02 at 16:00 (MT).

The frequency will be RX-IF=1379.

Both programs will be broadcast on KRMA DT-18.

-John

I tuned into KDVR-DT tonight, and there was no audio at all. I guess that's one way to take care of lip-synch problems.

On another topic--right now in Fort Collins, KTVD Channel 20 has a translator that runs on Channel 35. (Unlike the KDVR translator, I can get a good strong ghost-free picture from that translator if I orient my antenna mostly northward.)

Anyway, since KCNC-DT is on Channel 35, does anyone know how can this work? I assume that KTVD has to move sometime or another. It seems strange that the FCC allocated Channel 35 in this way.

Mark

Hello, new to the forum and there is a ton on info on this thread and tried various searches without much success due to my blurring eyes, so I thought I would ask you guys here....

I live in Westminster off of old wadsworth and 104th ave (SE of that intersection). My setup includes the sony HD200 receiver, directv, etc. In trying to get OTA HDTV and run my set up on the HD200, the DTV channel becomes 4.1 (not 35), 6.1 (not 18), 7.1 (not 17), etc...., is this correct? When I try to manually add the DTV channel (35, 18, 17, etc) number it gives me channel not available. It also assigns 31.1 to Fox (not 32) which I can get a signal as noted below on 31.1, so I assumed the HD200 assignment was correct.

Ok..., I purchased the terk tv55 to get the HDTV signals - no luck, so I bought the zenith silver sensor and am able to get fox at 100%, all others are NO SIGNAL. Are my channels incorrectly being assigned by the HD200 or are the 4.1, 6.1, 7.1, etc channels correct for their DTV channel on the HD200? I think the HD200 is renaming them "down".

I do not have a direct view of downtown, but we do live on a hill and have a better view of lookout mtn. Am I SOL in getting local HDTV other than FOX (which I understand is not HDTV), or should I continue trying with different antenna's or an amp for the SS? Should I just give up and move on?? I hate to do that as the HD channels via directv are awesome and would love to see how the local channels are. I have tried the antenna's in the attic, and the roof is out of the question according to the Mrs. of the house.

Would a different antenna or amp possibly work even if I don't have a direct line of site to downtown? I am also using 100ft rg6 cable., too long? Are all Denver HDTV signals UHF?

Thanks in advance for any input. I know there is a lot of great info on this tread but my eyes are killing me now from searching through this hugh thread, so I wanted to pose the question myself here.

Well in regards to the channel "mapping" 4.1, 6.1., 7.1 etc, you're seeing it that way because I believe the Sony uses whats called the Advanced Program Guide (APG) and so those re-assignments are coming directly from DirecTv via satellite download (along with DirecTv's own channels) based on the zipcode you provided in the Setup Menu. They just figure remapping the digital channels to those numbers makes it easier I guess than having to remember each channels true digital channel number.

But seeing those channels listed has nothing to do with whether the receiver can actually tune to the channels though. They'd be listed regardless. As far as actually tuning the channels, it's certainly a little tougher from the northside but I would think you certainly should be able to get 4.1 (35) and 6.1 (18) anyway with diff setup.

When you say you see "NO SIGNAL" is that when tuned to the actual channel like 4.1 that you see that... or like in the Installation/Setup menus for local digital? I would think that in the latter you'd at least get some reading on the signal strength meter even if it's too low for actual reception. But not flat out 0.

As far as antennas go, I think you could get away with attic placement but you probably need a bigger UHF antenna than what you're currently trying. Those Terks arent very good and the SS while a slick little antenna is probably not the answer at all from your location either. You might try one of the UHF antennas from Radio Shack that are more the conventional type. While quite a bit bigger, still should owe to attic placement.

Just some thoughts before I get some coffee in me this morning. :)

Rockymtn,

I'd agree with Dan - you almost certainly will need a larger UHF antenna (especially mounted in the attic) to pick up the downtown signals from your location. Also, with 100' of antenna cable, you may also need an inline amplifier - the channel master and wineguards are generally considered to be much better than the ones you could pick up at Radio Shack. You'd have to order them, as I've never found anyone locally that carries them. But, you should be able to pick up 18 (6.1) and 35 (4.1) with the right setup. 17 (7.1) is almost certainly not possible from your location.

On the KDVR front, they were definitely working on their encoder last night. I watched their encoding jump up and down from 3.91 mbs to 12 mbs several times over the course of the evening. Don't know where they finally ended up, but that's almost certainly why they were having audio problems last night.

I do not have a direct view of downtown, but we do live on a hill and have a better view of lookout mtn. This caught my eye. Are you on the West side of the hill (i.e. the hill is between you and downtown)? If so, does it just obscure your view of downtown (from on the roof), or is you view completely blocked?

I can second the recommendation of the Channel Master antennas, I've used a couple different ones with excellent results.

Does anyone know where the (analog) channel 28 (shopping network) comes from? I get it VERY strong, but I get 27 (Cheyenne FOX) snowy even with my antenna facing Denver. They (27) are supposed to start (I believe full power) DT broadcasting in December. But their DT channel is 28. As with the 35 translator and 35 DT, I was wondering how this will work. I have high confidence that when I get a north-facing antenna, 27 will come in very well, and I should be able to get DT 28, but multi-path reflections from the d*mn shopping channel could screw that up, couldn't they?
Thanks for any insight :)
Greg

thanks for the replies..., although we are on a "hill", there are houses on what seems to be a "higher hill" between us and downtown, so I don't have a direct line of sight to downtown from the roof, however, I do to Lookout mtn for what that is worth. Maybe that is why Fox comes in so good.

Any suggestions on specific model number for antenna or amp from RS or channel master? should it be directional or "omni or mutli-directional"?? I assume I don't need VHF since the HD is all in UHF??, so if that makes a diff, I would prefer to go with just a UHF antenna and amp.

DP1 - the "no signal" comes up when I go directly to that channel - 4.1, 6.1, etc.., I would have thought too I would have some signal, but I am getting No Signal at all on all local OTA HD other than fox 420p, which I can really pull in strong on 31.1 (but there is not a great improvement in the pic quality over my directv for fox). My Hd200, although it assigns these channels to the local HDTV channel, does however show the program name and "ANT/Digital" below the channel number, so I think I am tuned into the correct "renamed" channel.

thanks again!!

I would recommend a highly directional antenna ( UHF ) for what you want the antenna to do. Channel Master is a fantastic choice, but you might try a Radio Shack one first and see what you can get. They are cheap and locally available and they will take them back for a refund within, I think, 30 days.

Good luck,

Jeff