RCKYMNT,
Welcome to our thread!
Here'a couple of links for you. The Denver DTV site is a good place to keep up with the current status of Denver DTV.
Denver DTV (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/denverdtv.htm)

I like Jetlag, recommend the ChannelMasters. Here's a link to a great place to purchase ChannelMaster UHF antennas.
Stark Electronics (http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmuhf.htm)
I have the 3023 which is very good, but kinda big 80" long. It might work fine in your attic. The 3021, which is a different style, works great too. I just got one for my dad and he lives Way SE Denver and he can even pickup Super Low-power DT17 with the antenna just sitting temporarally in his living room.

No problem with KFCT-DT transmitter channel 21. The transmitter is located about one mile east of Pierce, Colorado which is most likely to the North of you. We monitor our transmitted signal from atop Horse tooth mountain and have experienced few problems.

I agree thats its interesting that they had to go up on Horsetooth mountain to receive their own signal...this tells me that everyone else lower then this may have a problem. Wondering what they're monitoring the signal with?

I put a small antenna back up on one of the rotors to see if I could eliminate the multipath problems on 21. As of yet, I cannot get a lock and a clean non-pixaled picture (mostly green screens). I tried spinning the beam 360 degrees around the compass with no luck. This and I can see the highest tower light from my house. My guess is, unless your right next to it, this thing is never going to work. I did find a spot where the analog channel was pretty good.

On another topic--right now in Fort Collins, KTVD Channel 20 has a translator that runs on Channel 35.

This translator is located in Estes park, and after digging through the FCC database, I found it operates with about 1.5kW of ERP...pretty puny but it puts a good signal into here. Anyway, it wipes out the DTV-35 station out of Denver most of the time. It's a shame as DTV-18 has been in to my location quite a bit lately, mostly in the mornings and evenings, but 35's been chopped up. I've recorded most of the 18 loop to the hard drive but I'd like to get some different stuff.
My guess is if 35 ever goes to full power/ higher location, the translator is going to be a non issue.

Good news that KGWN Cheyenne is on track!

A friend of mine in Cheyenne seems to know the GM of Channel 5 and it sounds as if they may be running by the middle of the month and possibly testing earlier then that... If I hear or see anything I'll post it here.

Ken

Welcome to the new members, especially the ones from the north. Please keep up informed of the status of your repeaters and the stations from Cheyenne, as many of us will likely soon point our antennas that way in order to get any network HD in the future.

Ernie
I was just glancing at your web page and couldn't help but chuckle at the comments on page one:

(Sarcastic Mode Turned ON)
******
KUSA (NBC)
November On-Air Date Not Looking Good on
Republic Plaza Low-Power X-mitter.
*****
Seems like a good bet they won't be on in November, or did they mean 2003??? By the way, has anyone mentioned that KUSA has the highest news ratings and is Denver's leading station....I know they are too modest to mention it, especially on their HDTV broadcast signal. Maybe you should include such a statement in your page so people know who they are. You know, how about

KUSA (NBC) Colorado's 'self proclaimed' leading station.

*******
- KMGH (ABC)
Says "We Will NOT Move our Ultra Low-Power
X-mitter off our roof and to Republic Plaza".
*******
Yes, KMGH still claims they were the first network on the air in DTV in Denver, too bad they are only talking to themselves. I'll bet they are praying that the Broncos recent swoon continues so they don't have to tell the public that no one can watch the Super Bowl in HD because they don't want to be bothered. Of course, they could be on the air any day now (well, OK sometime this century) from Lookout, so why bother moving to the Republic Building......

(Turn OFF Sarcastic Mode)


Sorry folks, I just need to vent about once a week about these local self serving stations or my blood pressure goes up. You can basically ignore my posts on the subject, as they have been pretty much the same for several years do to the massive efforts by our local network station leaders to get on the air.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Welcome RCKYMNT:

I am using a CM 4248 (actually a 3023 which is the same but ships in two pieces) bought from Stark Electronics. I tried a CM 7775 amplifier on the mast but it made things worse. I was able to get 18 and 35 using only a RS double bow-tie antenna, but could not get anything on 17. So, I am using the large Yagi just to get ABC. It is on my roof now on a 10 foot mast. It was lower last winter, but when the leaves came out, I could not get a good signal lock and had to raise it.

I would guess a very directional Yagi in your attic pointed at downtown should allow you to get 18 and 35. As others have stated, 17 is tough to get unless you have your antenna up high and probably on your roof.

The JeffCo Board of Adjustments was supposed to present their decision on the KWGN-DT permit today, if I remember correctly. Don (KWGN-DT), wabisabi, or anyone, please let us know what the decision was!

Thanks,
Mark

The Board of Adjustment Denied CARE's appeal.

-Wabisabi

woo hoo! So when will we start seeing KWGN-DT?

Yea!!!!!!! [jumping up and down for joy smiley here]

I want Smallville in HD!!!

Originally posted by wabisabi
The Board of Adjustment Denied CARE's appeal.

-Wabisabi

Greetings:

Yes, the BOA upheld the permit approval by a vote of 4 to 1.

KWGN continues to move forward with our build out and are still targeting an early March 2003 on-air date.

Don

Thanks Don

I look forward to it - please keep us posted

Reggie:)

Congrats Don & KWGN!

Maybe the tide has started to change. (S)Care & Company looked like babbling idiots at the last appeal hearing. I think JeffCo is starting to see that.

WOOHOO!!!!

Congratulations to KWGN and the people of Denver. (S)CARE has finally lost one. Just for the record, I wouldn't read too much into the tea leaves as far as the LCG application. Although this is a good sign, I really think this one slipped in under the (S)CARE radar, and we all know the LCG isn't slipping in under anyone's radar. All that being said this is a good reason for a 'small' celebration. FWIW the WB HD quality is pretty good and I think comparable with CBS prime time programming so this will be a treat for Denver viewers. Maybe (Hint, Hint) KWGN can even arrange to do a HDNet simulcast of a Rockies game or two next summer.

Congratulations, Don and KWGN!

My antenna anxiously awaits your digital emissions :)

I hope that this half-power solution gives you good coverage, since I suspect it will be used for awhile.

Is there an plan for eventually getting to your fully licensed power?

Mark

Wow! Good news for a change, this is great!

Hey Ernie, I appreciated your scorecard. This finally breaks the no-hitter; can the score possibly be tied now? How about a late inning come from behind win? Dare we even think that? That's like hoping for a Coors Field World Series.

Congratulations Don and KWGN. Don, it must be exciting to implement your 2nd HD startup. Just think, if Channel 2 would be the 1st to broadcast local news in HD next year, where would Channel 2 be in the ratings with respect to the local Faux news in 5 years? I realize that the number of current digital tuners is still off the radar screen, but where will we be in 5 years?

I'm very much looking forward to March!

But not January, no super bowl HD for north half of metro. Plus they (KMGH) have had a couple years to think about the upcoming SB 2003 plus MNF is happening in HD next fall (madden in HD = yikes), but not for the north half of the metro area.

Don

Originally posted by mbuchana
Congratulations, Don and KWGN!

My antenna anxiously awaits your digital emissions :)

I hope that this half-power solution gives you good coverage, since I suspect it will be used for awhile.

Is there an plan for eventually getting to your fully licensed power?

Mark

Mark:

Our 450kW signal should give us pretty good coverage. Our ultimate goal is to build out our 1MW service, as soon as we can.

For those interested, here is The WB's Fall HD schedule:
Day Show Air Time
Monday Everwood 21:00:00 ET
Tuesday Smallville 21:00:00 ET (effect. 9/24)
Wednesday N/A
Thursday Family Affair 20:00:00 ET
Friday Reba 21:00:00 ET
Sunday Smallville 16:59:00 ET
Everwood 18:00:00 ET

We already have our HD Satellite receiver and have been taking test feeds for a while.

Regards,
Don

Don,

What kind of antenna do you use to test out your broadcasts? and how is the reception up North?

Thanks

Reggie

Hey Ron,
Nice letter to the editor in this week's Canyon Courier!
-Wabisabi

If anyone is interested, I have finally designed and tested an OTA antenna assembly that will finally allow anyone-anywhere in the Denver area to pick up all of the local low power HDTV broadcasts. If you are interested in putting one on top of your house, just let me know.

Jetlag

Don,
Is KWGN planning on delaying the East Coast feed to be in sync with your Analog Channel or are you just planning on passing through the East Coast feed at an earlier time?

Jetlag - that's pretty funny! :D

Completely off topic...would anyone in the area be interested in beta testing a new PVR software system? There is an initial cost for the hardware - a provideo 256t mpeg2 card. I've been testing this software now for about 4 months, and I have to say that it absolutely blows everything else that I've ever tried out of the water (snapstream, showshifter, etc). It features full PVR functionality, an intelligent recording system (that to me at least is much more so than TIVO). It can control any cable box, or satellite receiver as well, and as of the last release offers limited dscaler deinterlacing, along with complete control over what audio and video filters used for playback. They are looking for a few more testers to round out the beta team. If anyone's interested, PM me or send me an email.

Yeah, I'v already sold several of them to residents on Lookout Mtn, NOT!

Watched the NFL on Fox 31-1 on my Mits HD5. Perfect picture OTA with no problems. Episode 1 was also awesome.

Originally posted by wabisabi
Hey Ron,
Nice letter to the editor in this week's Canyon Courier!
-Wabisabi Thanks -- I didn't know any of them got published yet (I sent to 8 newspapers and the Jeffco BCC).

Reminder: The hearings for KRMA's Mt. Morrison application start a week from this Monday, Dec 16th. Public testimony won't start until at least 6:30PM and the continuation night is that Thursday. Ken Smith is going to sign me in early. Public testimony can be from anyone, not just Jeffco residents.

"Come see the new Denver area zoo!"

Hello everyone. I live in DOwntown Denver on 17th and Glenarm and want to know if I will get decent reception.

If anyone would be so kind to come by sometime with their STB to allow me to test my location, I would greatly appreciate it. We can come up with some arrangement to make it worth your time. Many thanks.

well. i went out and got a dtc 100 and a cheap bowtie antenna. I cannot get a strong enough signal to get a picture. An I doing anything wrong? Would a better antenna work better?


I am on the 4th floor of my boilding with windows facing west and north. Any ideas on what I can rig to get a signal?

Thanks in advance.

orbillius,
You should be getting a signal from at least DT18, 35 and most likely 32. especially with being up on a higher floor. 17 is hit and miss from just about anyplace, but you should be able to get it. 18 & 35 are on the Republic blgd, and just about due East of you. 32 is directly West and 17 is SE.

But, it sounds like a technical problem. You should be getting something on at least one of those channels. You might have a bad cable from the antenna to the receiver. Check your cables & DTC100 settings. Then, if all else fails, go to radio shack and try another antenna. (You can always return it)

I'm having trouble getting a lock on channel 35 tonight. Anyone else having problems or is it my setup (as far as I can tell, nothing's changed on my end)?

I've been seeing a power drop from KCNC today myself. I'm able to lock, but it's 10-15 points less today than earlier this week.

I watched the game on 35.1 That was this afternoon though. No problems during the game, except for the last minute interception.

-John

I wrote a while back for a friend who lives in the Lafyette area and has Dish network. He applied to Dish for the CBS HD feed and was told he had to get a waiver from the Cheyenne station. He obtained the waiver and submitted it to Dish and was told it might take up to 45 days for final approval and turn on. He just told me that yesterday he contacted Dish to ask the status and was told his application was denied since he should have access to the existing KCNC signal. He does not have an OTA module, and is on the NW side of a hill and doubts he could get a sniff of KCNC DTV. Has anyone else been denied a waiver due to KCNC? I thought the stations that were O&O by CBS were required to give a waiver even if you had access to the local signal??? Should he contact someone from KCNC to deal with this?? What have others experienced in this area? I don't have Dish so I can't really help him. Any advice I can pass on to him would be appreciated.

jm,

It was my understanding that the O&O stations of which KCNC is one were to have a blanket approval. I understand that things have gotten tougher, but unless CBS has altered their policies ( which I doubt ), have him keep calling until he gets an informed CSR or asks for a supervisor and keeps asking on the same call until he gets the correct answer.

Jeff

Might also give a call to David Layne to see if the blanket waiver has been changed my CBS. I haven't heard of anything to that effect, but it's always possible.

My dad just called a week or so ago to add the HD-CBS. (He lives in Denver) I just told him the same thing... keep calling 'till you get a CSR that knows what is what. He got it added without a waiver. It just took a few tries.

Thanks for the inputs folks, I have passed your comments along to Dan. I will let you know if he gets anywhere with this.

Who have people been talking to at KUSA? Here we are on the 10th...maybe time to start asking them politely if they've been able to locate the magic flange to make everything work? :)

I think HOT had the 'hottest' info on KUSA... Any word for your insider sources?

Anybody going to CES in Las Vegas? PM me -- I'll be staying Friday night and maybe Sat. at Circus Circus

Well, I answered my own question. Sent Don Perez an email this morning asking about the status, and he replied right back saying they could be testing as early as later this week. :D

This just in from Pete McNally, Grinnell Group (following Pete's email is the contents of the cover letter; as an attachment is the PDF formatted complete response to the county) (and yes I let him know that these are VERY informative and appreciated) .....
From: Pete McNally [pete@grinnellgroup.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 9:45 AM
Subject: LCG Update

Friends,
Last week we filed our response to the County’s comments. Attached are the cover letter and narrative. We are working to get the supporting documents on the web page soon. The County has sent our response to each of the agencies who commented last time. On Dec 20, we will be meeting with the County to get their comments again. Barring anything unforeseen, this should be the last round and we’ll go to hearing as scheduled on February 5th. We’ll be in touch again after the meeting on the 20th to update you and again after the holidays to ask for your support. Please call or write with any questions.

I hope these emails are helpful and informative. If there is anything else we can be doing, please let me know.

Respectfully,
Peter McNally, Principal
The Grinnell Group
www.grinnellgroup.com
December 10, 2002
Susan Wood, Planner
Jefferson County Planning & Zoning Department
100 Jefferson County Parkway, Suite 3550
Golden, Colorado 80419
Re: Case No. 02-111694RZ, Lake Cedar Group Rezoning Application

Dear Ms. Wood:
Thank you for the opportunity to respond to Steven Brown’s letter of November 1, 2002. Attached please find a written response to each of the referral comments attached to the letter, the original redlined ODP and supporting drawings, and revised ODP and supporting drawings. In these documents, we have addressed each issue raised through the referral process.

The following changes have been made to address the County’s principal issues regarding the proposal. The radar tower and all other structures at the Channel 9 site are to be removed and relocated off of Lookout Mountain. The number of high-powered broadcast transmitters has been limited to the analog and digital
transmitters of the Lake Cedar Group television stations and the FM transmitters of the two public radio stations which need to collocate at the site. All but two of the high-powered transmitters shall utilize directional antennas. The satellite dishes have been relocated behind the building along the existing tree line to obscure their visibility. Further, the written restrictions have been revised to further reduce and limit the possible size of the dishes. The building design has been modified to further integrate it into the existing landscape and the building design provisions of the written restrictions have been strengthened, including a requirement that at least 50% of the building be located below grade. More detail has been provided about the proposed RF monitoring and enforcement program
as well as the proposed interference remediation program. Further supporting information has been provided regarding how the proposal complies with the zoning resolution standards (Section 15.F.2.b.)
We trust you will find that the revised proposal satisfies the County’s concerns and meets all the County standards for approval. We look forward to continuing to work together on this project. Please contact me with any questions or comments.

I'm assuming that most of you received Pete McNally's email earlier today. I read through all of the comments and responses, and actually feel hopeful again for the first time in a while now. I thought they were all very well written. Biggest shock to me was that KUSA has agreed to remove their radar tower from Lookout and put it somewhere else. I didn't think that'd ever happen!

I almost fell out of my chair when I read that KUSA would relocate the radar tower.

IIRC, the "illegal" radar tower was one of the biggest sticking points sCARE had against the LCG stations -- "how can we trust the stations when they go and sneak in an illegal tower like that?"

Is KUSA actually making an attempt to have HDTV in Denver sometime in our lifetimes? Wow.

On another note, I'm still having issues with KCNC-DT (35-1). Anyone other than Mark and I seeing 10-20 point drops in KCNC-DT reception? (I'll e-mail David at KCNC and see if he has any info)

dr_mal

I just checked. I'm also seeing an 18 pt drop in signal -- which puts me right at my receivers threshold, damn!

FWIW, I sent an email to the GM of KGWN (CBS-Cheyenne) asking about the status of their DTV turn-on (planned for 12/31/02 per antennaweb.org). Here's a quote from her reply:
Thanks for your note. Yes the plan is to be digital by 12/31/02. I
would guess we will be slightly behind schedule, and should be fully HDTV for mid to late January.
- digiphotonerd

Anyone have an email address for KLWY (FOX 27 and DT 28) in Cheyenne? According to Antennaweb, they are supposed to go live TOMORROW. Of course I get some HSN crap on 28 (is KDEN-DT 29 broadcasting analog signals that my receiver picks up on 28?), so that may be a problem. It is FAUX DT, but I notice from the analog channel that it has different syndicated shows than 31 (of course). I've got 2 antennas and a switcher, so here's hoping (and my HD Tuner is in the mail!).
Anyway, I'd like to write them and ask if they are on schedule or not.
THX, Greg

Re: KLWY

I sent a "DTV Status?" question to klwy@coffey.com today -- I'll post the response as soon as I get one...

- digiphotonerd

P.S. I've just created a "Northern Colorado DTV" thread.

I was able to watch KCNC last night with no breakups. Usually my SS is around 85 or so, and was watching with a SS of 78-80 last night. I wonder if the new KUSA antenna up there has something to do with it. There was a lot of discussion last year around this time that KRMA's signal was being affected by KCNC's antenna. Ironically, my KRMA signal is about 10 points *higher* in the last couple of weeks than it ever has been - I'm seeing SS of 95-98 on my Dish 6000 and 90+ on my hipix.

And one other thing of note (at least to the 15 other people that can view KMGH) - Last night was the first time this season that NYPD Blue *wasn't* plagued by breakups every 2 minutes for the first half of the show.

I agree with what Mark is finding, seems that KCNC is down on power and KRMA is up. I can get a lock on the signal for KCNC but I am not getting a picture right now. Could be that they are messing with things up there. Maybe they are getting KUSA ready to go and that is causing a temporary (at least I hope its temporary) problem.

Guess I'll check it check it out later tonight.

Joe

Low SS on 35 here too. Though I am still getting video at this time.

I am also seeing periodic drop of signal in Bonnie Brae.

Doug

I know it's still early, but I saw no blips on 16 tonight. Will check again tomorrow. I'm really looking forward to the evening that someone gets to post that they are seeing something on 16.

Mark -- you beat me by about an hour :) Just scanned for 16 and nothing. Of course, I fully expect to not be able to get it up here anyway :rolleyes:

I just want my KCNC-DT back!

No reply yet from David at KCNC about a reason for the power drop :(

Yup, KCNC was un watchable for me too last night. I would get a picture later on in the evening but it definitly was not stable. Hopefully they get it fixed soon.

Later
Joe

I checked my power levels this morning on KCNC and they were back up around 80 - still about 5 points down from where they have been in the past, but better than they were last night.

Heads up from KRMA:

The program Jessye Norman- A Holiday Homecoming will be fed in HD on Thursday, 12/12 at 20:00 and 23:00.

The frequency will be RX-IF=1379.

Please watch KRMA DT-18 to see this program.

I have noticed a signal strength drop on my DTC100 from 64 to about 58. I never got any dropouts however and would not have checked the signal strength if I hadn't seen the posts about it. I am also checking 16 daily. We now watch a lot of programming on CBS but my wife still is hooked on ER. It surely will be better in HD.

KCNC is weaker again tonight for me - signal fluctuating between 75 and 76, down from 80 this morning, and 85 normally. And still no blip on 16.

Aarrrgh... No signal from 35 for me either. High velocity blood spatter dosen't cut it without HD. Any word from KCNC regarding weaker signal?

This is getting really weird. Tonight my signal strength is:

16, 17, and 18: 0 (no change)
32: 0 (what the heck? this one's usually in the 70s or 80s for me)
35: 25-28 -- way below what I need for a picture.

For the first time since I bought my receiver, I can't get one stinking OTA digital signal.

No reply yet from David at KCNC about the lower signal on KCNC-DT.

My OTA receiver portion of my Unity Motion does not have a power indicator so I can't comment on signal strength (has a nice indicator for the satellite side of the box, go figure), but I have not had any trouble getting KCNC or KRMA the last week. I will admit I haven't watched them much lately, but I have been checking them periodically just do to all the reports about signal problems. Maybe the guys installing the KUSA flange are bumping the KRMA and KCNC towers with their gear and causing the problems. I have yet to see any signal on channel 16 although I have been watching that too. BTW, did I mention, KUSA is Colorado's Leading network (at least that's what they are constantly telling us).

I've sent an e-mail to Walt DeHaven, GM of KCNC, asking about the power drop on channel 35 and asking if there's any connection to KUSA's alleged imminent commencement of digital broadcasting. I'll keep you guys updated.

I thought KCNC monitored this thread? Have we scared them away?

Well I usually watch CSI, but since I AM GETTING A BLACK SCREEN on channel 35, I watched headline news. Fix it!

KRMA hearings Before the Board of Commissioners on the Mt. Morrison Tower are next week. From the website at

http://www.mtmorrisontower.org/

here are the details.


At the conclusion of three Public Hearings, the Board of County Commissioners is expected to make its final decision:


* The first day of Public Hearings will occur on Monday, December 16, 2002 at 5:00pm.


* A follow up Public Hearing will be held on Thursday, December 19, 2002 at 5:00pm.


* A third Public Hearing will occur Tuesday, January 7, 2003 at 9:00am


*****
Ken Smith of KRMA would like to get as many people as possible to attend the hearings and also especially people from Jeffco to speak in support of the tower application. Please contact Ken if you can show up, and especially if you can provide a 3 minute testimony for them. You can find Ken's number at this page:

http://www.mtmorrisontower.org/contactus/

I watched CSI last night with NO problems. Signal strength is just slightly down (64 to 58). With KUSA theoretically coming on, I wonder if KCNC had to reorient their HD antenna slightly thus affecting the reception pattern around Denver so that some people have more trouble receiving them now. KRMA signal has not changed for me. Weird!

It is surprising that David Layne has not responded. When they were having all their tinny sound problems, he always responded back to me immediately.

I hope the lack of postings doesn't mean there will be no support for KRMA next week. Remember that KRMA was the first on the air (with all due respect to the KMGH DTV transmission to their parking lot and street corner). They were also the ones who brought us the Super Bowl in HD two years ago. Maybe an AVS meeting should be scheduled at one of the hearings?

Dennis, maybe he is helping KUSA find their flange. LOL

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

ok, maybe I have to get up in my attic, and play with the antenna again..

Channel 18 has been fine for me, also.

Well, I'd love to go speak for KRMA, but unfortunately I live 2 blocks to far east...I may be able to make the Thursday night meeting, though.

Mark,
It's open to all to speak. As this tower effects all of the Denver area, not just JeffCo.
I'm planning on speaking. Call Ken Smith of BCDC/PIC at 303 592-5461 and let him know you're coming, he'll sign you up early, so that you will get a chance that night.

I just called Ken -- he says even if you don't feel comfortable speaking, he'll have stickers for you to wear that say something like "Mt Morrison YES" to show the commissioners that there's support for the new tower. Since I despise public speaking, that's what I'll be doing. Bring your family and friends, too. We need to beat CARE at their own game.

The good news is I just got a used SIR-T150 :D.
The bad news is I get 32 at about 5 bars (pretty low, but I didn't see any breakups), and I don't get a blip on any other channel :( .
I guess that is not too surprising since my antenna is in the attic over my garage pointing towards lookout, but I was hoping to see the demo loop tonight. And since I could already see that 32 looks better than 31, I'd like to get CBS before NFL Sunday.
I guess I'll have to do some re-orienting and see if I can get a blip on 18 or 35.
Heading over to update the Coverage Thread...

Ken's signing me up for the Mt. Morrison hearing also.

I hate public speaking too, but I figured it would be good for me. :)

He said it is valuable for the commissioners to also hear from those outside of Jefferson county.

Mark

I just got a note back from someone else at KCNC (replying to my note to David Layne) regarding the drop in power on channel 35.

Until I get permission to post the contents here, suffice it to say that KCNC engineers are aware of the drop, it was not something they intentionally did (ie they didn't turn it down to assist KUSA or reaim their transmitter to target different areas of Denver), and they hope to rectify the situation on Monday.

Strange that I didn't get a reply from David until I e-mailed the KCNC GM today. David's been really good about replying quickly. This time the reply was from Pat Brus.

Heads up from KRMA:

On Monday, 12/16 the program Kartchner Caverns: Alive with Wonder will be fed in HD at 20:30 & 23:30.

On Tuesday, 12/17 the program Main Stream will be fed in HD at 19:00.

The frequency is RX-IF=1379.

Both programs will be broadcast on KRMA DT-18.

Originally posted by JMartinko
KRMA hearings Before the Board of Commissioners on the Mt. Morrison Tower are next week. From the website at

http://www.mtmorrisontower.org/

here are the details.


Count me in at both hearings. I want my sticker! ;) It's also pretty enjoyable watching sCARE operate. <grin>

-John

I am getting a 32 signal strength on channel 29-1 and it locks for just a bit and it is the kusa feed.

KUSA on 29-1? That's strange as they are supposed to be on channel 16, but congratulations - you're the first to get the blip from them! And welcome to the thread!

I just checked and no signal for me from 29-1 or 16 :-(

Later
Joe

I was able to get channel 35 just fine from my attic, yes attic UHF attenna from Castle Rock before, now it breaks up so much I can't watch it. I did email david layne just now before reading, so who knows?

the only channel I don't get is 17, if that shocks anyone, but at least I am getting something, when I was in Aurora, I got zada.

Kmgh, please move xmitter to Republic Plaza.

Here is the response I got from KCNC regarding their lower power on channel 35 (I have received permission to post this message here):
----------------------------------------
David,
Last week a power amplifier failed in our Channel 35 HDTV
transmitter. This caused the power to be reduced to 50%. The manufacture
repaired and returned the PA and it failed again within 24 hours later.
On Monday a factory technician will be here and we will attempt to
restore our transmitter to 100% power. We apologize for the
inconvenience.

Thanks,
Pat Brus
KCNC-TV
----------------------------------------

Hopefully the technician scheduled to look at the transmitter today is able to find the problem and fix it for more than a day!

-David

Just a quick reminder that the hearings start tonight at 5 PM in the Taj building in Jeffco.

This message is intended for all the lurkers and new members out there. Please if you can fit it in to your schedule try to be there tonight. As dr_mal mentioned, even if you are not a public speaker please try to show up and wear a sticker.

It is about time the commissioners get the message that the public is fed up with all the procrastinating and excuses. Denver deserves access to HDTV just like the other 49 cities in the top 50 markets in the country. Yes, we are the last ones, and we owe a LOT of thanks to Jeffco and the commissioners for this embarrassement. If you want to speak for a couple of minutes to express your opinion, please call Ken Smith of KRMA at 303-592-5461 and schedule a time slot.

If you can't make it like me, (I have other commitments at my son's school this week) Ken will inform you on how to send an email or call the commissioners to express your opinion. If you can read this forum you can sure as heck send an email.

Who is (S)Care's engineer? Isn't it Al Hislop, or am I not remembering correctly?

Yes, you remember correctly, his name is Al Hislop.

Ok, this may (or may not) be an interesting tidbit of information. Al Hislop is not a registered professional engineer in the state of Colorado, at least according to the state's online database of registered engineers. If he is a registered out of state engineer, before he can seal his work as a professional engineer in Colorado he must be registered with the state. Or, if he isn't a registered professional engineer in any state, than he definitely shouldn't be providing opinions, data analysis, or anything else of that nature that legal decisions may be based on. Makes me wonder...

I am a registered professional engineer in the state of Colorado, so I know a little bit about this area. Unfortunately (in this case) my field of expertise doesn't have anything to do with RF radiation so I can't offer a "professional" opinion on the RF levels...but I am more than qualified to design and build their road up to the site! :)

Heck, I find that interesting. sCARE's website is so dependent on his "professional" findings.

I love the report where they conclude that KRMA's current DTV broadcasting situation (low power from downtown) is sufficient for Denver based on reception of Fox from Lookout Mountain. Whatever they're smoking, I want some!

Hi-- I live in SE Boulder, within the city limits and I'm wondering if its possible for me to recieve any OTA HD signals ? If so, what would be the antenna specifics. I've tried reading this thread to find the answer, but you gotta admitt...its pretty long :).

Mintaka,

I live at about 136th and Washington. I get 18, 32, and 35 with a Radio Shack (don't recall model) antenna mounted in my attic, and a Sony SAT-HD200 rcvr. I get about the same signal strength on all three. Probably about 75% (half way between "normal" and "good") on the meter. I haven't really messed with trying to re-align my antenna. I used only for local analog until recently. I would say it points s to sw. Sorry I can't be more precise, but since I receive them all fine I haven't really messed with it.

Anyone know what the signal on 80.3 is from. I was scanning on my rcvr, and got a lock on 80.3. The video was a big red triangle for about 30 seconds them dropped. I still show signal on the channel, but no video. Is my rcvr wacking out??

80.3 is the same channel as 18 (PBS). For some reason, when your reception strength is questionable, 18.1 shifts to 80.3.

In trying to prepare for the meeting tonight, I went back and read the first page of the first Denver HDTV thread -- August 2000. If I hadn't checked the dates, I wouldn't know that this was OVER TWO FREAKIN' YEARS AGO AND NOTHING'S CHANGED (except for a couple of low power transmitters downtown).

Anyone who has the time tonight, please come out to the Taj and tell JeffCo enough's enough. One post in particular made me laugh in frustration -- one of the JeffCo commissioners saying he'd like to watch the 2001 Super Bowl in HDTV if only the stations would file a proper tower proposal. It's a shame that we missed that one, Faux screwed up the 2002 Super Bowl, we'll miss the 2003 Super Bowl, and it'll take a Christmas miracle to get the 2004 Super Bowl in this town.

80.3 is the national PBS feed vs 18.1 being the local KRMA feed. Broadcast is on 18.1 (I believe) from 4:00am to 4:00pm and then it switches to the national feed on 80.3. Same channel, different PSIP data. (Time may be at 5, not 4...don't remember). The change has nothing to do with signal strength issues or anything like that.

So far I have not been able to get anything except 32. I don't get enough strength to scan, so I've been trying to go to the channels directly. Does this mean that after 4/5 I have to go to channel 80? Is there an 80.1/2? I haven't tuned in a channel with sub-channels yet, so don't know quite how the SIR-T150 deals with them.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Faux screwed up the 2002 Super Bowl, we'll miss the 2003 Super Bowl, and it'll take a Christmas miracle to get the 2004 Super Bowl in this town.

Good thing Canadians love football!:D

I think the 2004 Super Bowl is on CBS. If nothing else, you should be able to point your antennas north and get KGWN out of Cheyenne.

Latest word from up nort is that they are waiting for some install help and that will be in January. So there is a slight delay for KGWN, but nothing like the nonsense in Denver.

I wish I could have made it to the Mt. Morrison hearing tonight, but I was stuck at work until almost 9. KCNC has been off since I got home - briefly with 0 signal, and now bouncing between 5 and 40 on my hipix - I imagine that they are working on the transmitter problem they've been having.

I missed the applicants presentation (1/2 hr) and the BCC's questions (1/2 hr) and got there as the planning commission staff was testifying on their recommendation to deny (another 1/2 hr.) Then (S)CARE gave their presentation (1/2 hr) with Powerpoint slides (they were against, if you didn't know). After that, 12 or so HOAs supposedly not associated with (S)CARE had 10 mins apiece. Deb Carney did their slide presentations too. It ended at 10PM and will resume with individual public testimony (3 mins apiece) from 5PM-10PM Thursday night.

All testimony tonight was for denial of the application. The testimony cited Squaw as an alternate site (there was confusion whether or not the burden of disproving alternate sites was required. The planning staff now says no and the HOAs were all up in arms about it. The board said nothing to clarify the situation); the access road was not conforming to 2000 Int'l Fire Code; visual impact ((S)CARE had their own photo simulations); and get this, Deb's slide had a line that said the dowtown signal was an adequate alternative! I intend to personally directly refute that on Thursday. Deb also had 1300 sigs recommending denial that they unfurled on a scroll that went half way up the aisle. What grandstanding! I intend to show "my" 170 sigs recommending approval.

There was a humourous part where the fire districts' fire chief and the fire districts' fire marshall vehemently contradicted each other and whose authority it was to deem the access road suitable for fire eqpt. It was left to the fire marshall (who said the road was OK) to return with a letter from his board of directors that stated it was his decision to approve the road.

I'm tired -- more observations after sleep -- ZZZZzzzz....

Thanks Ron,
I was there too. Too bad i didn't know what you look like. I'm scheduled about 5th to speak Thurs. I'd be happy to help you 'unroll' your positive petition! That was absolutely ridiculous.

I'm glad the fire marshall got to clear things up. That to me was a deal breaker. If you didn't notice, the commisioners were all sitting up straight and paying extremely close attention to his every word... Unlike Al's testimony.

(S)Care (and some of the other 'slick willie' attorneys) are making a huge deal about the fact that the board in the past has denied past tower App's because of the lack of applicants providing enough detailed research into proving there are no other suitable alternate sites, i.e. Squaw.

If i get time before Thurs. I am really going to try to put together a visual of 'Our' results on reception problems. The 'real world' results our DTV viewers recorded during the Squaw test. I'm not sure how Weird Al got great reception everywere (Except Boulder) but that ain't what we all recorded!

Somebody has to bring up the fact that Al's not a registered engineer in CO. We have to pull some of our own (S)Care tactics.

Also, i wish somebody would mention...

Now why is it that all these 'professionals' that keep telling us that all RF is bad... and we shouldn't live near towers... and we should remove all towers immediately, yet, they all still live on Lookout?

It's like telling us, smoking is bad and causes Cancer... and we shouldn't smoke... but yet they all continue to smoke. Hmmm?

Maybe we need Avsforum stickers so we can notice each other -- I was looking for you Ernie, but didn't see anyone closely resembling your avatar.

I ended up sitting with RonAuger and mbuchana after the break.

And after all the crap spewed by sCARE's 4 hours of testimony, I've decided I WILL testify on Thursday night. I'm on page one of the multi-page sign-in sheet, so I should get a chance to speak early on. I plan on asking what Al's credentials are (nice to know he doesn't have any :D), refuting the property value claim (had to move from JeffCo to AdamsCo to find affordable housing), refuting the "Squaw works" claim (0/2 in Boulder, 0/1 in Golden), asking the commissioners to prevent sCARE from hijacking meetings in the future by using puppets to read Deb Carney's slides, and reminding the commissioners (and Tower NO! folks) that this proposal has the net effect of REMOVING ONE FREAKING TOWER!

I have more detailed notes that I'll post once I get to work.

Someone PLEASE tell me I was still asleep this morning and did not hear this report correctly.

According to KUSA morning news this morning at 6 AM, there was a hearing in Jeffco last night concerning the location of the DTV towers to Mt. Morrison. According to KUSA (Did I mention they are Colorado's Leading Station), the application includes KRMA and their own KUSA DTV transmitters as well as several other Denver stations. The news said the stations plan to move from Lookout Mountain to Mt. Morrison in order to provide DTV transmissions and reduce the impact of towers on Lookout Mountain.

Since we all know that KUSA is "Colorado's News Leader", I guess we all need to rethink our support for the Lake Cedar Group Application. Maybe we are all looking in the wrong place (downtown Denver) for the KUSA low power DTV transmitter, maybe they are really putting it up on Mt. Morrison. It might also explain why we had a report they were on Channel 29 instead of channel 16, maybe they forgot to check with the FCC for their channel assignment. I was not aware that the KRMA Mt. Morrison application included all the other members of the LCG as well. Thanks KUSA for that up to the minute reporting, no wonder you are number one. Imagine what the other more "inaccurate" stations must be reporting. Remember, if KUSA is Colorado's Leading news station, the others must be worse by definition.
:mad:

Just for clarification for any newbies and lurkers in the thread, KUSA and the other Lake Cedar Group Stations are NOT included in the application for Mt. Morrison, although KRMA is still a member of the LCG and could also place their transmitter on the replacement tower on Lookout if their Morrison application is rejected.

I can't believe KUSA was so far off on this one. I almost cut myself with my razor (I was shaving at the time) when I heard this gem on their newscast. It now makes me realize that my requests for more coverage of the tower issues on TV was not a good idea. If this is the most accurate reporting the stations can come up with, maybe we are all better off that they haven't reported the issue. It's no wonder the stations can't generate any support for their applications, when their own news departments can't even get the story right on their own DTV application. I guess this does prove though, that the station managers do not control what is reported in the news department, although I would have thought they would at least ask for accurate reporting if something is said.
:mad:

Guys, thanks for the reports on the meetings last night. Unfortunately, my son is involved in several singing groups in the music department at Fairview, and this week they have rehearsals each night until their Christmas shows on Wed. and Thurs. evening. I can't really put HDTV viewing above the family responsibilities this week. I did contact Jeffco via email and express my support and may try to do more later.

PS When I checked last night I still do not see any signal on Channel 16 or 29 (or whatever KUSA is supposed to be at), and KCNC was off or unwatchable for much of the night.

dr_mal - don't forget me! I'm just east of 2nd and Sheridan and couldn't get a blip of signal from Squaw either!

I will try to make the meeting on Thursday, but my week is really shaping up badly...I may end up being at work here until late every night this week (as opposed to just last night like I was hoping). But if I'm not here, I'll be there definitely!

I'm pretty glad now that I decided to search the database for Al - I thought I might be able to debunk him because he was some kind of other kind of engineer (like me) with little expertise in RD radiation...and he's not even an engineer at all in CO! Gotta love that!

Mark,
Do you have a link to a website to search that?

I missed the applicants presentation (1/2 hr) and the BCC's questions (1/2 hr) and got there as the planning commission staff was testifying on their recommendation to deny (another 1/2 hr.) Then (S)CARE gave their presentation (1/2 hr) with Powerpoint slides (they were against, if you didn't know). After that, 12 or so HOAs supposedly not associated with (S)CARE had 10 mins apiece. Deb Carney did their slide presentations too. It ended at 10PM and will resume with individual public testimony (3 mins apiece) from 5PM-10PM Thursday night.

The staff that was testifying was from the planning department, not the planning commission. She was presenting staff's recommendation of approval, not denial. She mentioned that the planning commission had recommended denial, but that staff was still recommending approval.

-wabisabi

Thanks Mark -- I'll remember you on Thursday.

I agree I'd like to see that database myself before I present it as fact to the commission. I like to be prepared.

Speaking of which -- anyone have any hip waders? It got pretty deep in there last night (if you know what I mean) and I'd like wear them on Thursday night.

---edit---

Any local JeffCo residents care to apply to be on the JeffCo Planning Commission board? http://206.247.49.21/ext/dpt/commish/boardsnc_recruit.htm

wabisabi,
Thanks for the clarification. I arrived towards the end of that testimony and didn't catch the jist.

JMartinko,
Don't feel guilty; enjoy your family. We're saving the big guns for LCG's hearings.

I think ch29 was mentioned by somebody last night. I thought I heard it was an IND or REL station testing their DTV xmitter from the plains (somewhere east). It was mentioned during all the hoo-ha concerning alternates sites being available. This reversal of interpretation of the TLUP regarding the requirement to show that no alternate sites exists is going to be a big help. I don't know what prompted JeffCo to change or when it happened, but it made (S)CARE folks very mad!

Mark
I would be very careful about trying to debunk Al just because he may not be listed as a PE in the state of Colorado. I have dealt with Al enough in this forum in the early days of our thread to tell you he is a very competent engineer with a long background in his own microwave business and his resume included several patents, as I recall. There are many fine engineers in the state who are not registered as PE's, and to my knowledge they are not precluded from testifying in legal cases. Many of the measurements and issues Al has brought up were later verified by the FCC, so he is not a 'local crackpot'. These hearings are not legal hearings anyway, so I am not sure it serves us well to try to debunk his credentials, especially if you do not have his resume handy. It was included in one of the (S)CARE submittals to the FCC and may also be found with some searching on the (S)CARE web pages although I am not sure about that.

Al's problem is not that he doesn't know what he is doing, but rather he knows full well what he is talking about, and he is also aware that very few other people understand what he is talking about with flux density measurements etc. Al also has an agenda, which is to get the towers off of Lookout (I presume to increase the value of his properties in the area, but I don't know that for a fact he has any property in that area). His knowledge allows him to state only certain facts that support his case and ignore others which might not be to his advantage. That puts him in a position where he can be generally accurate in what he says, just not necessarily complete. As long as he remains accurate in the facts he produces, I don't think he can be refuted for things he does not state.

Just my $0.02, you folks are obviously free to say what you believe.

Originally posted by RonAuger


JMartinko,
Don't feel guilty; enjoy your family. We're saving the big guns for LCG's hearings.


How about us small plastic cap pistols???
:D

If I am on your list of big guns, I would recommend the rest of you go out and get subscriptions to Canadian providers for HD, it will be a long time coming here in town. In reference to Mark's comments, I do not have my PE in the state either, although I have spent about 30 years in the industry.

It is a fine line between offering expert opinion and engineering judgment. I don't know Al, never met have met him or spoken to him. He may have all the experience in the world, and be the absolulte best at what he does, but if he is portraying himself as a practicing professional engineer in this state, then he has to be registered in this state. If he is a professional in the microwave industry and is offering expert testimony or expert opinion, then that's a different matter.

Anyway, the webstite is for state registrations is : http://www.dora.state.co.us/pls/real/ARMS_Search.Set_Up

And after thinking about it, I can't believe that Deb Carney would let him offer anything by expert opinion, so this probably isn't worth bringing up. But, it's still an interesting sidebar, IMO.

Well I'm embarassed to say that I did not make it out there yesterday. I was short-handed here at work. If I had thought for a second that it would go on for four hours I would have just gone after work. I should have known. Anyway, see ya'll Thursday (after work.)

Thanks for the reports, by the way. Can someone estimate how many people showed up on either side? Thanks!

-John

Here are my thoughts, impressions, notes on last night's meeting. This is the longest post I've ever written, and will likely vie for longest post on this thread. I wanted to present every little detail I could remember.

I'd like to warn you ahead of time: these comments are my own, they will likely offend some of you; I'm sorry if they do. I'll try to be objective, but based on the pile of erm, stuff, that was spewed last night, I'm not sure how successful I'll be.

The hearing last night was in front of the Board of County Commissioners.
The commissioners are:
District 1: Michelle Lawrence [(1) from now on]
District 2: Patricia Holloway [(2) from now on]
District 3: Richard Sheehan [(3) from now on]

My first thought as I looked around the room and noticed the "Tower Yes" stickers and "Tower No" buttons on people was how much better looking the "Yes" crowd was. The "No" crowd appeared to me to be of the inbred "old money" high society types that are portrayed on "Law & Order" killing their son because he tried to marry a commoner. Again, my impression only. It's possible that not all of them are old money.

[edit: I figure the crowd was 2/3 Tower No and about 1/3 Tower Yes. The hearing room was pretty well occupied until later when everybody had to start heading home to bed]

As I was walking towards the Hearing room, I held the door for a (only slightly) older gentlemen who introduced himself as Ron -- a real estate appraiser. Ron needs some medication to help his blood pressure. I sat beside him and chatted for a few minutes before the meeting. His primary concern was that at a previous hearing, someone who supports the tower had essentially called him a liar (hey, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...). He also wanted the "illegal" towers removed. I asked him what he thought of removing two towers to build a new one; he didn't care. I asked him which towers specifically he wants down; he wants the "illegal" towers down. I guess it doesn't matter how many of them or where they are, as long as they're legal!

The meeting was called to order at 5:13 (so those of you stressing about getting there on time -- not as big a deal as I thought).

BCDC/PIC PRESENTATION
BCDC/PIC had the opportunity to speak first. They had a lawyer lady (can't remember her name) give an overview of the proposal (take down ugly Channel 59 tower, take down ugly Channel 6 tower, build a camoflouged tower close to where the Channel 59 tower was). James Morgese, Channel 6 GM, had a brief videotaped statement where he said if this tower is approved, Channel 6 WILL tear down their current Lookout Mountain tower and building and move to Mt. Morrison. I understand this was a sticking point last time -- the commissioners were unsure what Channel 6's intentions were if both towers were approved. Mr. Morgese made it clear that if Mt. Morrison is approved, he'll broadcast from there.

Jay Jacobsmeyer, the BCDC/PIC RF expert, spoke next.
Highlights included the slide that showed FCC-allowable levels of RF next to actual measured RF levels at "key" locations (Ralston Elem, etc). The highest RF level was 0.2% of the FCC-allowable level.
He also mentioned specifically about the elementary schools: Ralson Elementary has lower RF than some other (forgot the name) elementary school in Cherry Creek. Red Rocks Elementary has lower RF than some other elementary school in south Lakewood. The schools around the mountains are NOT a hotbed for RF exposure.
(3) mentioned that was interesting because they've had school children picketing at the county offices over RF exposure. The tone of his comment seemed to me to be genuine interest in the fact that the RF exposure at elementary schools has been greatly overstated by sCARE.
(2) asked about other stations broadcasting on Squaw Mountain
It turns out that Channel 12, the only TV station currently broadcasting from Squaw, is at the peak of Squaw on National Forest land. Even if anyone wanted to, they couldn't build another tower in National Forest land. The communications area on Squaw is down a ways from the peak of the mountain and wouldn't be suitable for broadcasting.
Here's something interesting -- Channel 20's tower is properly zoned and they could put a DTV transmitter up no problem right now. I know they're part of LCG and all, but why don't they have a "temporary" transmitter up there now?

They then presented photo simulations and the letter from the Fire Marshall dated last Friday that says the road is OK for fire protection.

Their summary was:
* This proposal consolidates two separate towers
* With new directional transmitters, the RF will be lower if this gets built
* Two ugly towers will come down (gotta agree there -- that Channel 59 tower is butt-ugly)

(2) wanted some photo simulations of Option A (the big single tower sticking up opposed to Option B the lower matrix)
(1) heard a comment that structures similar to Option B are in use elsewhere in the US and would like photos of those

[b]STAFF PRESENTATION
The next presentation was from Planning And Zoning, Heather Gutherless presenting.
Heather stated that the Channel 59 tower is currently in a zoning violation, and has been since 1999.
Squaw and Pinnacle have both stated that they could accomodate the new transmitters. However, Pinnacle does not have the appropriate zoning.
The Town of Morrison officially opposes the new tower, while the City of Lakewood sent a letter with some concerns.
sCARE was concerned that there were two options in the proposal (what, options are bad? gimme a break!), and had over 1300 signatures on a petition opposing the towers (more on that later)
ZONING STAFF RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF OPTION B - while it does not meet 5 out of 90 zoning regulations, it DOES MEET THE INTENT OF THE REGULATIONS. They recommend conditions on the approval, though:
* Remove Option A from the proposal
* Construct a rock facade (on a barren hillside -- that'll look great) around the structure
* Remove old buildings
* Put clauses in to allow for removal of new tower/building if it ever becomes disused
* Blah, blah, blah (nothing significant)
She mentioned that the zoning commission had recommended denial of the application by a 4-3 vote.
(2) asked "how can all those transmitters go on that tower and not be seen? (sCARE applause)
(2) wants a better photo simulation of the new tower/building because "I can't see the building or tower in that picture". DUH!!! That's the whole point!
(2) would like a physical model of the new tower since she can't see how it looks in the photo simulation. "We're very visual here". DUH!!! The new tower/building AREN'T visible!!!

Mr. Hart (Jim?) then testified on behalf of the County that Squaw Mt is suitable for broadcasting.
(1) reminded him that this hearing was about a potential tower on Mt. Morrison and didn't want to hear about Squaw at this time.
(3) wanted to make sure the old building is removed if the new tower is erected. It appears he may have been confused with the wording about the NEW building being removed IF the new tower is disused. He understood the tower WOULD be disused. He was mixing up the old and new tower. He was assured that the old building will be removed.

PUBLIC TESTIMONY
First up was sCARE, represented by Deb Carney (aka The Wicked Witch Of The West).
She started by asking her husband (husbands?) to unroll the petition of 1383 signatures. Very dramatic :rolleyes:
She mentioned that home values would decrease by 10% per Ron Selstad (he spoke later).
She had personally spent $1000 to put tinfoil on her windows to isolate her from the evil RF emissions (there's nowhere else to buy a home?)
(1) admired her little cartoons
She also presented a new photo simulation of the new building. This simulation was a close up of the tower (a view you'd only get if you were trespassing on BCDC property), painted black (not camoflouged), and the antennas appeared to be exaggerated. I heard lots of "That's more like it" from her evil minions, disguised as rational home owners (it wasn't a very good disguise) when the photo was displayed.
She mentioned (claimed it was a real case? I haven't heard of this incident [edit: here's a link (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/tower/hillaff.htm)] that an electric wheelchair was overcome by the RF emissions, malfunctioned, and hurtled its victim over the edge of a cliff. Alleged victim then had to spend time in intensive care. We can't have towers, because they cause wheelchairs to malfunction. (If the RF is at 0.2% [at most] of FCC limits, and electric devices have to "accept any inteference" to get the FCC sticker on the back, doesn't that mean the wheelchair was faulty?)
She mentioned that some people she knows have spent over $16,000 to shield their homes (I wish I had $16K to improve my house! Heck, that would be a decent down-payment on a house somewhere OFF Lookout Mountain)
She says the existing Channel 59 tower is in violation (that actually appears to be a true statement), it violates the Fire Plan (not according to the Fire Marshall -- more on that), and high-tech businesses are being driven away because of all the interference (better save this post, the high-tech company I work for is in Golden)
(3) asked which specific businesses were driven away. She could only come up with one name, which I've forgotten.
Her 10 minutes were up.

My speculation: she prepared a four-hour testimony and had friends/paid lawyers read it in 10 minute segments to avoid the 10 minute limitation she had to speak. The PowerPoint slides were all done in the same style, and nobody had anything to say that wasn't said in Deb's presentation. I'm a little peeved that the commissioners let her get away with this. I'll call her on it when I testify on Thursday.

Next up was Wayne Matthai, a retired VP (ie rich) of Proctor & Gamble.
He showed the same photo simluation with the black tower at a 390mm focal length (something you wouldn't see unless using binoculars) from a school and from Red Rocks Amphitheatre. He didn't present a photo simulation showing what you would see with the naked eye from those positions.
His speech could be summarized as "Think of the children"
sCARE applauded after he was done speaking, (1) told the audience that applause is not appropriate at this type of hearing. He finished right on time.

Our favourite, Al Hislop, was next. He didn't mention if he had any credentials or state licensing (gee, I wonder why?)
His presentation was entitled "Alternate Sites"
He thinks maybe the transmitters could go out on the eastern plains, or especially at Squaw. I wonder if he has an investment in the Squaw telecommunications company? He was pushing it pretty heavy.
He described the tests he conducted from Squaw, and said with a booster, he could get Digital 38 in Boulder.
He wondered aloud what the RF would be at Red Rocks Stage if the new tower was built.
(1) and (3) looked bored as he presented.
He had to be told when his time when up.
(3) asked him if the FCC would grant a permit for a booster so Boulder could get the signal. Al was sure they would.

Scott Coors (yes, that Coors, but not representing "the family" or the "brewing company")
"I'm not a NIMBY, believe me, Coors knows NIMBYs" (that's right, he's a BANANA)
When he bought his house, he knew it was in a "cancer cluster" from the towers. Apparently, he didn't care, because he bought it anyway. He's concerned about the impact of property value decreases (from a net removal of one tower?!?) on retired folks with fixed incomes (who can afford to buy homes on Lookout Mountain? Gimme a break).
Blah, blah, blah.

Steven Close spoke next. He's a captain in the Foothills Fire and Rescue department (but of course, is the official spokesperson of XYZ Homeowners Association -- gets him 7 extra minutes over being a concernced citizen)
His presentation was "think of the firefighters".
Apparently the majority of firefighters, including the fire chief, in his fire department have signed a petition saying they don't want to go up the road to fight fires at the Mt. Morrison site. (do we want chickens in the fire department? I don't think the NYFD men, when asked to scale 80 stories in the likely event they'd die, faltered)
He called the Fire Marshall a liar, and said he lacked the authority to approve the road. He claims the Fire Chief is the only person who can approve a road for fire-fighting purposes.
He showed lots of pictures of the road (before recent improvements) showing how nasty it is. Sure, it isn't I-70, but the fire trucks last time I checked weren't exactly Lexus either.
He showed a diagram of how the road would have to be changed to meet his interpretation of the fire protection code.
(3) asked if his pictures and diagram took into account recent road improvements. The answer: no. That would make the road look better.
(1) wanted to resolve the whole "is the road approved or not" issue.

Jim (Tim?) O'Hare, the Fire Marshall, then testified.
The major sticking point on the road is the average grade of the road. Right now, the average grade is about 13%. The Fire Protection Code of 2000, Appendix B, specifies that average grade should be 10% at most.
Jefferson County, as well as the Fire Protection District, have NOT adopted Appendix B of the Fire Protection Code. Therefore, it is his opinion that the road, as is, meets the Fire Protection Code. Recent improvements, incidentally, have widened parts of the road and reduced the grade. The Fire Chief failed to include these improvements in his (Deb's?) analysis.
(2) wanted to know if he thinks Appendix B will be approved by the Fire Protection District and/or Jefferson County. Answer: I don't know
(2) will you be up there fighting the fires with Mr. Close? Answer: No.
(3) asked if he was aware of the petition Mr. Close had. Answer: He found out about it 2 weeks ago; it was his impression that it was circulated at a member meeting and members were told to sign it.
(1) wants to get written confirmation from the Fire Protection Board that Mr. O'Hare is their authorized spokesperson and that they agree with his letter OKing the road.

Back to Deb's Minions:
Jan Wilkins, spokesperson for the Mount Vernon County Club (we still have country clubs? I thought those went out with slavery)
She doesn't like the fact that the proposal compares Option A with Option B. She would rather have them compare Option B to no towers at all. (yeah, like THAT'S gonna happen)
She was brown-nosing the commissioners so much, she needed a full decontamination shower afterwards "You, o mighty commissioners, have been wise in denying previous attempts to defile the open space" Ugh.
Again with the road going up to the site. She had more pictures of the trouble spots in the road.
(1) wanted to know when those pictures were taken. Answer: in the last 2 weeks
She's worried that reclamation attempts will fail (so we should leave the old towers up forever?)
She says the generators will be too noisy
She's worried about wildfires caused by diesel storage "I couldn't take a vacation last summer, because I didn't want to leave my mountain mansion so close to the fires". Tough luck. I couldn't take a vacation last summer because I had to work.
Oh yeah, and the firemen are afraid to drive that road.
(3) said "but they said they'd go up to fight a fire anyway, didn't they?" No response. (I don't think Deb put an answer to that question in the script Jan was reading)
(1) reminded her her 10 minutes were coming up
"You've been the best friends of open space -- happy holidays!" Gag me with a spoon.

David Vennitti was next.
He claimed intereference starts at 0.5 wt/cm2 which is 400 times lower than the FCC standard. Claimed the FCC is an advocate for the broadcasters (that's why they pushed KUSA into doing temporary low-power DTV? Huh.)
Best quote: the area is "bathed in ether of RFI" Oooohhhh -- sounds scary.
(3) asked who he worked for as an engineer Answer: Kaiser-Hill

Ron Selstad came up next. This is the gentleman (?) I met earlier. He's a Real Estate Broker (ie: he gets higher commissions if property values increase, hint, hint)
He says we can't trust the broadcaster (duh, that's why there are enforcement clauses)
He says health concerns, even perceived health concerns, drop the value of property in the area.
He claims if a new tower is built (and two removed) people would move away.
People can't buy or sell houses because of the towers (sure it's not because of the price? I've looked for houses around there -- not in my price range, that's for sure) (and besides, those towers have been there for 50 years -- I'm pretty sure there have been real estate transactions in the last 50 years there)
He then attacked the BCDC for saying that his testimony was inaccurate. He wasn't paid to be there -- he'd like everyone to state if they've been paid to testify.
One word for this guy's testimony - indignant. Get some blood pressure medication, dude.

Next: Donald D'Antuono, Attorney (retained by a HOA -- doesn't that mean he's paid testimony? HMM????)
He recapped the BCC's previous decisions on tower applications.
(1)(2)(3) weren't paying attention.
(3) looked bored
(1) looked sleepy
blah, blah, blah, "We should be ashamed", blah, blah, blah,
Made a personal attack on Heather Gutherless, the zoning staff representative, saying no rational person could possibly believe what she had said.
The guy sitting beside me, when Mr. D'Antuono had finished his testimony, whispered into my ear: "I wonder if this guy brought his A**hole membership card with him tonight". He didn't need a card; anyone would believe he was one. This was a classic show-trial lawyer. And yet he was boring. Whatever.

Scott Albertson, an Attorney representing yet another HOA was next (do lawyers work for free? Guess this is more paid [by sCARE] testimony)
He was very smooth, and was brown-noser #2.
He stated that the Channel 59 tower has been illegal for 7 years (zoning lady said it became out of zoning regulations in 1999 -- must be the new math)
Kept repeating the phrase "illegal tower"
Wasn't sure what his point was. This proposal removes that tower.
He was also bothered that they didn't want to rezone all 40 acres in their property. He thinks they'll come back and rezone the rest of it later. (or maybe, just maybe, they want to leave some of it as open space? I tend to think if they wanted to use all the land for development, they'd only go through this circus once instead of coming back in a couple of years to do it all over again!)
Conclusion: sCARE doesn't want any open space in BCDC land. Whatever.

This was the end of the sCARE presentation, and the floor was opened up to independent spokespeople of other HOAs.

Bob Smith, a 30-year resident (still not as long as the towers!), was next.
He claimed that KRMA is driven by greed (PBS? Huh?)
He claims that Squaw mountian works (so he has a digital receiver and verified this?)
He also said Option B was reprehensible (because you can't see it to complain about it?)

The final speaker for the evening was Linda Hogan. Quick -- somebody tell the funny farm she escaped! I don't know what she was smoking, but I want some!
She presented Exhibit A to (2) -- an Owl Feather from her property.
She then explained that she's Native American, from some tribe in Oklahoma.
Her speech could be called "Think of the land"
She reminded the commissioners that there are federal laws protecting endangered species (so federal law is OK for animals, but bad when the nasty feds try to take away local control over zoning to give everyone access to digital TV)
She doesn't want the BCC to take her garage away because she hasn't parked in it for 6 months.
She read a couple of excerpts from a book she wrote that is being translated into every language on earth by the US Government.
Finally, she presented a bill to Mr. Bradley (not sure who he is, she gave it to the lawyer lady representing BCDC/PIC) for her time that was wasted coming to this hearing.
(1) told her that that was not appropriate; if she wanted to send correspondence to Mr. Bradley, she should mail it.
(3) said "now that I've had my bedtime story, I'm ready to adjourn"

It was 10:05, so we adjourned until Thursday.

I signed up after the hearing to testify on Thursday. I couldn't let that pile of crap go unchallenged (I know there are others here who will testify -- we need more real people instead of Deb-Drones to testify)

Oh yeah, mbuchana -- if you're there Thursday, I'll pay you back the quarter :)

[edited to correct typos and add a link to the wheelchair story]

Hard to say how many on each side. In the beginning, the room was nearly full (if you know what that room looks like). I think somewhere around 120-140 people(?). Most people had a "Tower Yes" or "Tower No" sticker and my impression by 10PM was that I saw almost as many Yes stickers as I did No stickers. I was actually surprised and pleased that I saw so many Yes's!

Hi guys. Just had to drop back in to this thread for my 1000'th post. A sure sign that I have achieved true 'geek.com status', I have waaay to much time on my hands or need to get a life. [rhetorical question only--wise a*s comments not required] I will try to figure that one out in my spare time. In the meantime, I found the recent post by dr_mal interesting for a little perspective on things.

In trying to prepare for the meeting tonight, I went back and read the first page of the first Denver HDTV thread -- August 2000. If I hadn't checked the dates, I wouldn't know that this was OVER TWO FREAKIN' YEARS AGO AND NOTHING'S CHANGED (except for a couple of low power transmitters downtown).

I have been posting in this forum since Feb. 2000 (reading it since late 1999 when I set out to buy a new HDTV), and I would estimate about two thirds of the postings were in this particular thread. Unfortunately, as dr_mal stated, nothing has changed. We have covered a LOT of ground, including debates with Al Hislop and (S)CARE here in the forum (until we called them on some of their claims), posts from station engineers, etc. Discussions have been around zoning interpretations, letters to the FCC and the local stations, power flux density issues, Super Bowl broadcasts on KRMA (via KCNC), lack of low power transmissions on KMGH, great visits to KRMA, KCNC, and HDNet and so on. And someone in the thread may have even mentioned once or twice about the lack of any DTV from KUSA (Did anyone mention they are "Colorado's Leading Station?) It has at times, been rather interesting and even fun.

If you sometimes wonder why some of us 'old timers' here get frustrated and seem to be repeating ourselves at times I thought dr_mal put it well. "OVER TWO FREAKIN' YEARS AGO AND NOTHING'S CHANGED". I don't think I could have said it better myself. The really sad part is that it will be another two years at least before anything will be able to change significantly, and we have full power DTV from Lookout. And even that may be an optimistic view. So as we spend the next two years debating pretty much the same topics as the last two, please bear with those of us who seem to be overly frustrated with this entire process.

In closing, does the 1000'th post make me an 'Elder Statesman' in the thread (along with a few others), or does it just make me an 'Elderly Statesman', or does it just mean my opinions are 'just getting old'? [rhetorical question only--wise a*s comments not required] Not much to watch in OTA HD here in Denver tonight, so it is off to the movies for me. I will ponder all this while I watch the midnight showing of "The Lord Of The Rings: The Two Towers" tonight. :D

Congrats on 1000 jmartinko. Hopefully this whole situation will get resolved before I hit 1000 :D

Forgot one thing:

I think (3) understands what's going on and will likely vote in favour of the application. (1) was smiling and complimenting Deb on her cartoons "your presentations are always so entertaining (maybe she was being condescending?) I have no idea how she feels about the proposal. She seemed the most neutral (except for the friendly comments towards Deb) (2) had questions galore for the BCDC/PIC people, but pretty much let the Deb-drones go unchallenged. I suspect she'll vote against the proposal.

dr_mal
Any more excellent posts like that summary of last night and we may have trouble getting anyone to show up. It has to be easier to read your abridged version than to spend 4 hours at that song and dance show. Thanks for showing up, and especially thanks for your extremely well written summary.
PS I enjoyed your 'editorial comments' as well too.

JM,

Whatevery you do, DON'T ponder the Jeffco madness while watching TTT tonight :)!!!
Just go and be overwhelmed. And just think, maybe by the time RoTK hits broadcast TV, you'll be able to get it from a full power broadcast from Lookout Mtn.
Greg

Originally posted by gkanders
JM,

Whatevery you do, DON'T ponder the Jeffco madness while watching TTT tonight :)!!!
Just go and be overwhelmed. And just think, maybe by the time RoTK hits broadcast TV, you'll be able to get it from a full power broadcast from Lookout Mtn.
Greg

Greg
Got any more of that stuff your smoking left? I could use some for the movie. HD full power from Lookout by next December.....ROFLMAO!
:D

Oh no, I'm not THAT crazy!
Note I said when it hits broadcast TV (I'm thinking 3-4 years after theatrical release). That would make it 2006-2007.
If BCDC/PIC is denied, it would probably be a good bet that LCG II will be denied -- in which case, it will be clear that I have been hitting the halflings leaf a bit hard (a little Old Toby anyone?) when feeling optimistic about 2006 :) :)

That makes more sense, when I read it the first time, I thought you were talking about the theatrical release next year. Guess I should read more carefully, but I was laughing so hard....actually 2004 or 2005 may be just as funny if the (S)CARE lawyers manage to get the rulings into the court room. 2006 or 2007 may actually be about right.

Besides, no one in their right mind (not even me) would sit and watch a three or three and a half hour movie with the addition of commercials. That would take at least 6 hours on network. If they showed them all together in the extended versions that would be nearly 10 hours even without commercials. I think it is safe to say that LOTR will never make network TV.

One thing about the "Channel 59 tower." As I understand it, the tower is legal, but the antennas that were added to the top of it are not.

So, even if CARE were successful in getting those stations driven off of the air because they are illegal, the tower would still remain there. So, the only way that tower gets removed is for the Mt. Morrison proposal to be approved. And the new proposal is certainly much better from a visual perspective than the old tower.

Made good progress at work today...so I think I'll make it Thursday.

Mark

And the new proposal is certainly much better from a visual perspective than the old tower.

Well, if you look at the visual simulation prepared by CARE, I don't think that they are convinced of this.

-Wabisabi

P.S. From the comments of the commissioners, they are not sure exactly what it would look like either.

Just a thought, but it would be quite easy to disprove some of sCares testimony. Simply check the closing dates on their individual properties (any realtors on this thread?), vs. the dates that the towers were put up. My guess would be that most purchased their houses well after the towers went up, obviously the "RF" didn't matter at that time, and finally, if they bought despite the existence of the towers, so will others if they choose to sell and leave.

If logic, factual data, and a FCC mandate don't work, perhaps we need to consider making our own cartoons. Possibly even little stuffed animals that have "TY" labels on them (tower yes)! Now, who here wouldn't vote for a fuzzy and happy looking little varmint who wanted nothing more than DTV?

Just pull a string, and they start singing "I want my, I want my, I want my D T V!";) :D :p

*edit* changed FAA to FCC, old habit, can't help it.

Originally posted by wabisabi
Well, if you look at the visual simulation prepared by CARE, I don't think that they are convinced of this.

-Wabisabi

P.S. From the comments of the commissioners, they are not sure exactly what it would look like either.

Yes, I think it IS hard to visualize, because it isn't a typical tower configuration. Perhaps the commissioners need a "field trip."

And, whether the new one looks better than the old one may depend somewhat on where you are standing when you are looking. But the proposal certainly includes a lot of features to minimize visual impact(location below ridgeline, painting to blend in, and now maybe a "rock" shield). The old one just sits there on the ridge in plain view.

One thing I certainly grew to appreciate in the hearing is how tough a job these commissioners have. Even if the CARE arguments are flawed, they are passionate about their cause. It takes a lot of political guts to go against them.

Anyway, my brain is still fried from trying to figure out how removing the channel 6 tower and the channel 59 tower and replacing the latter with the new "Alternative B" is going to reduce property values by 10%...

Mark

FYI,

If you know an address in Jeffco you can get the property record info here:

http://ww4.co.jefferson.co.us/apps/servlet/ats.atsdisplay?search=3&ptype=&sale=

CRAP!!!

Everyone who testified on Monday had to give their address for the record -- I didn't bother trying to record them. I'll remember this for Thursday night.

Sorry to jump in off topic, but I am working on 3 hours of sleep this morning. LOTR, The Two Towers is a fantastic movie. Skip the HT and OTA HD issue one night soon and check it out.

David, thanks again for the great summary of the other night.

Pardon my yawn.
:o

Regarding bringing up Al Hislop's credentials:

I found this interesting snippet at c-a-r-e.org (know thine enemy, right?):
-----------------------------
David Venitti, electrical engineer who designs technology to detect and measure ionizing radiation said, "When DTV was turned on in Dallas, it caused serious harm to medical facilities and it probably would here too." He questions inconsistencies about power densities that the applicant has submitted through their engineer, Robert Weller.Mr. Venitti read from a letter from the Colorado Licensing board for Engineers."The Lake Cedar Group engineer is not a registered professional engineer in the State of Colorado. Broadcast facilities in Colorado must have a certified engineer to qualify their measurements."
-----------------------------
http://www.c-a-r-e.org/news/witnesses.html#Larson (scroll up a wee bit to see this)

This was taken from a summary of hearings in 1999 before the Board of County Commissioners. If they can discredit experts based on lack of state recognition, can we not do the same?

Interesting to note that at that meeting in 1999, Deb unrolled a petition of over 3000 signatures before starting her testimony. I wonder if that's the same petition still in dramatic use now. If so, I wonder how many of those people understand the issues and understand what's happened with the applications (and roll out of HDTV in general) over the last 3 years.

I've updated the reception maps -- we now have a data set of 45 viewers. There's also a map by zip code for KBDI analog ch12, but we only have 14 responses on that.
http://bricklin.org/AVSForum/DenverTV.htm(needs 1024x768 screen resolution)

BTW, has anyone seen any signals from KUSA 16 in the last few days?????
(Did anyone know, they are "Colorado's Leading Station")?

Well what do you know? I do have signal on 16, probably about 75% on the signal strength meter (halfway between normal and good. HD-200).

Nothing on 16 last night for me, but since I can't get 18 either, I'm not optimistic.

Got a 62 on my Dish 6000 for KUSA in Genesee. They've got funky blue side bars - Weird.

Getting comparable readings to 18 at my house. About 90% on my 6000 and pegging 100 on my Mitsu.

WooHoo, comes in here as well with a signal strength around 89!

Too bad I get 17 with a signal strength of a big fat ZERO

Later
Joe

I too am receiving a signal. It comes in at the same strenght as KCNC (85). I'm one of the lucky ones that can receive all of Denver's DTV broadcasts!!! One question though. Is it possible for the broadcasters to also send program listings on the digital channel?

I also noted that my 6000 remapped to channel 9-01.

I get 16 at a strength of 64 on a DTC-100. Same as 18, 32 and 35 (17 is still at 41 with some occasional dropouts).

On my receiver, I had to do a new channel scan because 16 had been previously identified as an analog signal and it just said 'weak' when I would directly tune to it. After the scan, it was correctly set as a digital station.

I noticed the sound level is much lower than the DirecTV or OTA SD signal, but it sounds fine if you turn it up.

I am not sure congratulations are in order to KUSA, but at least they apparantly found their flange.

I checked KUSA-DT out at lunch. I am getting a 92-95 on my 6000. It is my best digital signal!!

Does this mean Jay Leno in HD tonight? :)

Ya Joe..hehe I get all of them also, all the way down here in Castle Rock, it's too bad i get zilch !, nada, zero, on CHANNEL 17.

I just got a hughes e86 dtv receiver, it also will do hd ota locals. I hooked up a uhf antenna, and i show a good signal on 18 and 35, but when i do a scan it doesn't pick them up, and when i try to change channels to channel 18-1 (for example) it says 'channel unavailable' - any ideas??

I have a clone of the E86 and I believe if after a scan I go to the "Locals" page of the setup menus to see what it's found, it'll show 18 and 35 as 6-1 and 4-1 instead of 18 and 35 (which are just listed as analog channels). You might see if you's looks like that as well as just trying to tune the channels by using 6-1 and 4-1.

KUSA, on the air in DTV??? Go figure.
Did anyone mention they are Colorado's Leading Station and also FIRST on the air in DTV.......... oops, I mean SECOND on the air in........oops, I meant THIRD on the air in.....oops, I mean FOURTH....Oh well, at least they finally made in on the air in a digital format. Is their tower located on the Republic Building or did they locate it on Mt. Morrison as they mentioned yesterday on their morning newscast?? Gee, I wonder what possibly could have motivated them to get at least a low power transmitter on the air???? So many questions left to answer.
:rolleyes:

Now as for KMGH, the 'first station on the air' in DTV in Colorado, wonder why I still can't seem to pick up their signal??? Must be something wrong with one of my antenna cables....:mad:

lol -- I was going to ask you, jm, if you were going to take back all the nasty things you've said about KUSA now that they're on the air (he says ducking)

And aren't they the 5th? (KMGH, KRMA, KDVR, KCNC, KUSA)

dr_mal
What could you possibly mean? When have I ever said anything 'nasty' about KUSA? As a matter of fact, I only say positive things about them. Just like they do on the air, I point out they are "Colorado's Leading Station" as often as possible.
:D

And aren't they the 5th? (KMGH, KRMA, KDVR, KCNC, KUSA)
Well, OK, since YOU brought it up, it would even be worse than that if we count KBDI wouldn't it. I just fell asleep counting.....
:o

By the way, did I mention KUSA is "Colorado's Leading Station"? Except that doesn't make sense if they were fourth or fifth or whatever it really was. Actually I think even a Cheyenne station beat them on the air. I wonder if they will change their adds to state they were number 5 or 6 or whatever?? (rhetorical question, no response needed)


PS (Edited later) Speaking negative things about KUSA??? Me??? Maybe your just sensing some of my frustration for dealing with this BS for so long?

Pookers- I live in the Castle Rock are as well. I am getting the signals for 18 and 35 but I can't seem to pick up 16 yet. I have a panny STB with an antenna in the garage ceiling. What STB are you using and how is your antenna configured? I seem to remember that KUSA was locating on the Republic Plaza tower so I expected to be able to receive it. I have run an auto scan and added 16 manually but no luck. Bummer.

Dan/DP1, et. all - The plot thickens. No go on 4-1 or 6-1, so I did another scan. This time the scan list showed 9-1, 32-1, and 35-1. And I actually do get something now when I enter 9-1 etc., tho only 35-1 looks (maybe)like hd. I get very strong signals (100 !) on 16 and on 18 too, but they don't show up in the scan list and I can't access them (16-1 or 18-1). Any thoughts on that? I really wish I could get 18-1, cause that's pbs, right?, and my understanding is that they broadcast a loop different than their channel 6 ota, so I could thereby conclusively know I am getting an hd signal. I'm a total newbie to all this. And I live 40 miles northwest of downtown denver, and it doesn't seem right that I should be showing signal strength of 100 (or close) for 16, 18, 32, and 35, which I am, not to mention that the uhf antenna (radioshack) I'm using is setting here in my living room pointed out the window. I don't know what 9-1 corresponds in terms of a uhf channel, so I don't know what signal strength I'm getting for that one. This whole thing is a bit of an adventure, isn't it.

I am getting 80% on KUSA-DT channel 16 mapped as 9-1. However, ER is not in HDTV 16:9 it is in 4:3

It appears to me as well that they are not sending out the programs in HDTV. At least there is a signal. Hopefully they'll get things resolved soon.
BTW, how did tonight's meeting go?

dssset,

What you have to understand about the channel numbers is that 9-1 and 16 for example are the same channel. If you enter 9-1 and you see a picture you're seeing 16. 16 is the UHF frequency for KUSA-DT but the receiver might refer to it as 9-1 to correspond with "channel 9". Thats called "remapping" to try and keep you from having to remember 16. There was no true HD on that channel tonight because ER is the only show they have in HD on Thursday nights and even that one wasnt in HD because it was a re-run.

KCNC uses channel 35 UHF but again it could show up as 4-1. But if you're seeing a picture on 35-1 you've got KCNC covered. Their programming tonight (Survivor) just doesnt happen to be in true HD either.

Same with 18 being perhaps listed as 6-1 (once again corresponding to the analog channel number)

To recap, if you go into "local digital" to check signal strength, that area goes by true UHF channel assignment. Which means you're checking for signal strength on 16 (NBC just lit up today), 18 (PBS), 32 (FOX), and 35 (CBS)... 17 also which would be ABC but you'd have no shot at that one living so far from Downtown.

If you're getting strong readings on those 4 channels I would think you could tune to them. Either by direct entry on the keypad of 18-1 or 6-1 for KRMA, 16-1 or 9-1 for KUSA, 35-1 or 4-1 for KCNC and so on.

One other thing I might add is it seems kind of iffy that you'd get such strong signal readings on many of those channels if you live that far away and dont use an outdoor antenna. So for one reason or another the signal strength you're seeing on say 18 might not be accurate or you interpreting something you see incorrectly, especially if you're having trouble seeing a picture.

So it seems that 16 is mapped to 9-1, tho my receiver doesn't say that - these mapping are sure not consistant on my hughes receiver - 16 is mapped to 9-1 (which makes since since 9 is the 'regular' nbc), but 35 is not mapped to 4-1, rather it's at 35-1 , and 32 is mapped to 32-1, not 31-1 . It therefore looks like the only one that is not being mapped on my receiver is 18, tho i get a strong signal on it, and since it's not mapped, I can't get it. I want my hd pbs!

Yeah, it sounds like you got a pretty good handle on it (and it's lack of consistencies with remapping and whatnot) now. One last channel number to punch in for PBS is 80-3 (or -1 or -2) because for reasons I wont go into right now it's possible that it might work if none of the rest do.

Dp1 - Thanks for the info, it's getting a little clearer now. With my receiver, I'm finding that nothing that does not show up in the scan channels list (after a scan) is accessable, regardless of signal strength indications. As far as the signal strength indicator for 18 being innacurate - well that's certainly possible, tho I'm confident that it is not my misinterpeting it since i may be brain weak oft times, i am not brain dead, and 18 is at 100, a bit higher than 35 (about 93). Is 18 broadcast from the same area and power as 35? Also, it's not just that I don't get a picture on 18-1 or 6-1, both say channel unavailable. Again, neither 18-1 nor 6-1 show up on the local channel list, and i do think that is why i can't 'get' it. As I said, I am getting 9-1 nbc, 32-1 fox, and 35-1 cbs now, and they are on the channel list.

I'm pegging my dish 6000 at 100% on 16 (9-1). ER was a repeat tonight from last season - that's why no HD on that. I'm waiting for another 10 minutes here to see if Leno is in HD. What are the opinions on the blue side bars?

DP-1 - Yesssss - 80-3 is the ticket! It looks great!! Like hdnet. Oh me oh my. Thanks much, dp-1. My local channel list stops at 69, for whatever reason, so I never would have know 80-3 was out there waiting to be plucked. How the heck did you know that - you are indeed the Voice of Reason.

No HD on Leno yet...

Edit: Tried calling the 9News (Colorado's News Leader - right John? :D) newsroom to get transferred to the control room (that's how to connect with the engineers after business hours on the other stations) but no one picked up. So, I sent off an email to Don Perez.

A couple more 'stupid' questions - I've got Leno on now, and it looks like hd to me, or certainly better the 'regular' broadcast - as does Letterman. And what is up with those side bars (blue on Leno, gray on Letterman). Where do they come from? I have a 4:3 Mits Hd that has a couple of display/aspect ration/zoom options, and the hughes receiver does as well, and trying to figure out which combo of settings to use is puzzle indeed- and now these side bars - why are they there?

Tonight, they started with two more HOAs and then 3 video taped testimonies of people that stayed all evening on Monday and didn't get to testify. I was next as the first "live" individual testimony (see below). I listened to a dozen or so, including mbuchana and santellvision who submitted the ch38 map as evidence against Squaw's suitability. Most everyone but two were "yes" votes. I must say that all the testimony I heard in favor was clear, succinct and unemotional (except for the first video-taped testimony. He was whipped up but had GREAT testimony that he went quickly through in his three minutes!!! dr_mal is getting a transcript to post here.) I think the board appreciated the calm, collected, to-the-point testimony that was given. They even began the session stating how personal attacks, mud-slinging and such was not looked upon favorably and would be cause to ignore testimony.

It felt very good to hear so much positive testimony after Monday's negative propaganda parade. dr-mal is doing his impecable note taking so I'll let him do the unabridged version.
I feel somewhat unprepared since I have no slides, scrolls or video-tape with me!

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Board

I understand how difficult it must be to try and balance the broadcast television needs of the millions of people in the Denver-metro area with the desires of a relatively smaller number of Jefferson County residents. Especially in view of the conflicting testimony I heard on Monday, some by experts in their field.
I heard: Visual impact was minimized -- Large visual pollution
The access road was fine -- the access road was terrible. I hope that was clarified to your satisfaction tonight.
Squaw was a suitable alternative -- Squaw won't work.
I also heard the requirement to show alternative sites was needed -- and then I heard unnecessary. I'm still unclear on that one.You certainly have a difficult job sifting fact from testimonial. One slide even claimed that the temporary low-power signals currently broadcast from downtown would be adequate. I live in Elbert County and although I have a digital television, DTV receiver and rooftop antenna, I have been unable to get a signal from the downtown DTV transmitters. Downtown is not a consideration. Concerning Squaw Mtn.: Although I heard testimony regarding a test that attempts to dismiss the shadowing problem, I know of real home viewer observations to the contrary. I have many friends in the foothills area that can not adequately receive the current analog station that broadcasts from there, KBDI ch12. During KBDI’s test of their digital eqpt on ch38, these same friends were unable to get that channel either.

I am interested in seeing an end to this stalemate that has made Denver dead last in the U.S.'s DTV transition. Your unique geographical position and strategic topography make your county an undeniable requirement for a television broadcast tower to cover the same viewership. Reducing the number of towers is something I thought everyone in this room would be amenable to. If you have no concrete rationale for denying the Mt Morrison application, I implore you to see beyond the unfounded arguments from some of your constituents and do what is best for the Denver-metro area – approve this application and let Denver move forward with the DTV transition.

One other thing, although I don’t have any membership or finances behind me like CARE does, as just an individual I was able to collect about 170 signatures in support of this application. Silly me, it’s not on a scroll that I can unfurl down the aisle, I choose 8 ½ x 11 sheets of paper.

Only "true" HD is in 16x9 format. Thats why you see the bars on the sides of so much programming on the digital channels. It's not HD when you se it like that. Though PBS is thats why it's full screen. Normally Leno would be shown like that and the picture would look far superior to what they're showing tonight.

But since this is KUSA's first day on air I'm guessing they dont have the HD recording facilities in place yet to timeshift the HD from the Network.

One last thing about PBS, dssset. 80-3 will be what works during the evening hours and weekends because thats when KRMA-DT is passing through the PBS Network HD demo reel as opposed to the locally originated programming that they pass through on weekdays. So during the day 80-3 might not work and suddenly 18 or 6-1 will. You'll have to see how that goes. Also, the programming during the day (which is a bunch of continuous "Spirit of Colorado" episodes isnt true HD either though it will fill the screen. It just wont be quite as good looking as what you're seeing tonight which is the real mccoy.

And the blue sidebars will have to go eventually too! ;)

I missed Monday's meeting but attended tonight's...and here's a few thoughts from it.

I stayed for the whole thing, and they announced at the end that the third installment will be Tuesday, Jan. 7 at 9:00 AM. The lady behind me mentioned to her friends "we better get everyone here for that" and she was a No Voter and testified to it tonight-however, she said DVD when referring to DTV in her speech, so her friends are probably just as misinformed.

Ron, Mark, Ernie and David all spoke and did a great job. the commissioners seemed to genuinely listen and pay attention to what they had to say.

I was surprised at the number of EWTN supporters who spoke. Maybe Mother Angelica can deliver a Christmas miracle with a yes decision!

I'll be there on the 7th, and try to bring any friends/collegues who can miss work.

Just a side note...when they were queing up the taped testimony, they had probelms getting the tape to play and then play with sound, and the main commissioner (M Lawrence, #1) said things like "technology...ain't it grand" and "this is the wave of the future"! I sure hope she and the other lady figure (Hollaway, #2) out VHS isn't the wave of the future, but DTV is!

No joy for me tonight. I came home from the hearing to find out that 9-1 is below my tuners threshold (34). Even though KCNC is a 48 and KRMA is a 40, KUSA is a 28. Do you think I could convince someone to go up to the roof and point that thing just a little more SE?

Well, I thought I'd try 80-3 tonight too, I don't expect to get anything, but I want to be prepared and all...
I just got an SIR-T150 (used, but seemingly in great shape, firmware V1.8). I can not input anything over 69, and I can not get the channel up there by pushing channel up. Is there anyone with a 150 that can let me know how to get to 80-3?
Thanks, Greg

No luck for me (at 2:00 am after staying at the Taj 'til 10:15 and then watching the big Survivor finale) on 16-1, 9-1. Channel scan did not add them for me. For fun, I tried 18-1 again, and it remapped to 80-3 (which means I'm getting at least the PSIP, right?) and gave me signal strength of 28-29. 34 and I'd have a stable picture. Argh.

Give me some time to type my 18 (notebook size) pages of notes -- you guys that left early (not mentioning any names :)) missed some of the most entertaining moments.

A few brief notes on last night:
* Like RonAuger said, they thoroughly condemned any attacks on staff, who they say is doing the best job they can do. This was especially pointed at the first Deb-drone lawyer who made a personal attack on Heather Gutherless.
* For those who remember the KRMA tour -- do you remember the video editor who demoed the HDTV editing booth? He was sitting right in front of me and we had a little chat after the meeting ended. He said we were welcome to come by anytime (hopefully for a victory celebration after the January meeting?)
* I also hooked up with Sean? Scott? Shawn? from LCG who was observing from a dark corner of the room. He said LCG doesn't object to this proposal at all. I thought maybe they'd be upset about channel 6 possibly pulling out of their mini-super-tower, but he didn't seem bothered by it at all. On a side note, the chair of LCG is no longer Mr. Morgese from KRMA, it is now the GM of UPN20. I asked him if the Mt. Morrison tower gets approved, would the LCG members consider moving their transmitters to that tower (BCDC has stated that there is some capacity there for more TV transmitters). His gut thought was that there wasn't enough room for ALL the LCG stations, especially in the building. LCG's application calls for a 20,000+ square foot building; BCDC's proposed building is only 15,000 square feet (and would have to house channels 23, 59, and 63 as well as the LCG members)
* Ron's observation was correct that before the intermission, there were only about 2 nos who spoke (other than the actually independent HOAs that didn't get time during Monday's sCARE-a-thon). After the break, the representation was more balanced, including some (1 or 2) rational No arguments.

I have some work I have to get done this morning -- I'll work on my full report as quickly as I can.

Greg,
Some receivers have a menu that let's you choose between the input being OTA or Cable. My Dish 6000 is like this. If you change that to Cable, it will let you access channels over 69. Try that.
-----------------

I didn't get to stay at the jeffCo meeting til the end, but like the others said, it was mostly 'Yes' testimony. There were a few memorable lines from the public.
One guy said... We all didn't move here (lookout) at night. Got a few harumpahs!

It was kinda' fun to watch the 'No' side. Most had their arms folded with scouls on their faces during all the 'Yes' information.

I tried to stay professional and didn't bash anyone (I wanted too so bad) I just said:

- I was confused on why is there going to be a 10% Reduction in Home Values?
- This is Not an Additional Tower, but a Replacement Tower.
- Net Reduction of One Tower.
- Also mentioned the Lake Cedar Group Consolidation will also result in a reduction of 4 more towers, including the Channel 9 Radar Tower.
- So, It doesn't make sense that all our home values will go down with the removal of all these towers.

- That there was also another group tracking the reception results of the Squaw test.
- A non-affiliated group of Digital-TV owners.
- We also recorded the reception from Squaw during the Test.
- Map shows results from 29 "Real-People" with "Real TV's" and "Real Antennas".
- The results show 12 with GOOD reception, All East of Wadsworth.
- 1 Marginal all the way out in Brighton.
- And 16 Receivers West of Wadsworth Bld. that could NOT get any signal.
- Again stating that these are "Real-People" with "Real TV's"
- Not some High-Tech, Professionals, using Digital Test Equipment.
- Mentioned that even Mr. Hislop had trouble,…Had to use Filters and Boosters.
- Said that opens another 'Can-of-Worms'.
- Do we really want to be forced to build MORE Towers, with More Antennas & Boosters all over the area to Fill-in these problem "Shadow Areas"?
- That doesn’t seem to fit your LAND USE PLAN mandate for less towers in JeffCo.

The Sales Rep. from Squaw came over to me as i was leaving and didn't seem too happy with my testimony. She tried to tell me that my results are wrong and she tested from all over the place and didn't have ANY trouble. Sure, if you're a sales person trying to 'Sell' Squaw, seeing our map on the Big Screen and hearing our results isn't too good for biz! Better start looking for a new job at Walmart... I think they might still be hiring for the holidays ;)

Thanks for the reports, guys. I really look forward to reading your long report, David.

I received a reply from Don Perez this morning to the email that I sent him last night. He thanked me for being interested in HD, asked where I'm located and what I use to receive his signal, and then said that there are currently only upconverting their SD broadcast. They have the HD recording and playback equipment on order and hope to have it installed "in a month or two". For what it's worth...

After watching KUSA for a little while last night, I found that the blue side bars didn't really bother me any more than the gray bars do that KCNC uses. I suspect that the gray bars are better for my HDTV than the blue bars are, but after a while they really weren't that distracting.

And then there was one - So I'm getting everything (I think), Except abc: 9-1 (nbc), 80-3 (pbs, which dp1 says may move around during the day to 18-1 or 6-1), 32-1 (fox), and 35-1 (cbs). I am getting a relatively weak signal strengh reading on uhf 29 (50 - 70) that is not showing up on my local channel list, and entering 29-1 gives me that notorious 'channel unavailable' msg. Anyone know what that (uhf 29) is? And what is (not) up with abc? According to Ron's great reception maps abc is on uhf 17 (0 signal strength for me) and broadcasting at considerably less power than the others - tho I thought I had heard that they were all at 1 kw (except for fox). I'm gonna try sticking this uhf antenna on the roof today and see if that puppy will get even a whisper of signal out of uhf 17.

Mark
Maybe you can pass a note back to Don Perez (The GM at Colorado's leading station) to see if they could pass on the HD feeds an hour early live from the east coast until they get the tape gear in place. I understand their problems though, how could they have anticipated the need for HD tape equipment in advance???
:mad:
Oh, did I mention KUSA is.....your know the drill.

I thought last night's YES testimony went very well and gave the commissioners a lot to think about.

In addition to Ron & Ernie (I did leave early--it's a long drive--so I didn't get to hear dr_mal), I think one of the most effective was by the guy from "Friends of Red Rocks." He actually said that he wasn't "for" or "against" the tower, but in effect he said (or at least I heard):

(1) it won't hurt the beauty of Red Rocks, and may actually be an improvement.

(2) Interference with Red Rocks sound equipment won't be a problem.

(3) The surrounding communities might have some benefit from reduced RF exposure.

So, though he wasn't officially in favor, here was testimony from an environmentally-oriented organization that gave the commissioners no reason to deny.

Anyway, I thought that was a highlight. It also sounds like all of the road access issues for fire protection were resolved.

Mark

John - message away! :)

dssset,

17 is way less power/coverage because they broadcast from atop their studio building downtown as opposed to off the top of Republic Plaza. As far as 29 goes, I dont get it at my house but from what I understand it's just the digital version of analog channel 25.. which is a shopping channel or something of some sort.

I have one other question for you. You mentioned how you thought PBS looked as good as HDNet. Is your E86 actually connected to DirecTv and thus you receive HDNet at home...or is your E86 just being used as over-the-air only at this point but you've seen HDNet on display elsewhere?

I assumed it was the latter. But if you are connected to DirecTv, if you enter a zipcode in the Setup menu the unit will download a Program guide that includes the local digital channels. At that point KCNC does indeed show up as 4-1, KRMA as 6-1 and so on in the Program guide (along with program descriptions like all the rest of the DirecTv channels). At that point you dont have to worry about issues like whether it's 80-3 or 18-1 etc on KRMA for example because if you select 6-1 from the Program guide it will automatically tune to the channel regardless. It's only if you arent connected to the satellite, or havent entered a zipcode even if you are connected to satellite, that you have to worry about the things we've discussed..

Just for info only, I sent an email to Perez at KUSA asking if they would ever plan on just passing through some of the HD programming they receive just on 16. I told him they could get some experience doing that while waiting for more equipment to arrive. Don't expect anything, but who knows? If you had asked me last summer if KUSA would even have this much done, I would have laughed heartily. :)

Jeff

Dan,

I am hooked up to directv. The only place I've seen to enter zip code info is on the setup dish pointing screen (to get the elevation,azmith #'s etc) which I did. No sign of 4-1 or 6-1 in the program guide nor on the local channel list (and I get channel unavailable if I try to tune to them manuallly). But since I can get to them via 35-1 and 80-3 'taint a big deal for right now. FYI, I just checked, and I'm getting pbs on both 80-3 AND 18-1 for now, anyway (still no 6-1).

In terms of KMGH (17), from the coverage map it looks like they are also broadcasting with less power. What has been done thusfar to encourage/leverage/embarrass them into at least doing what KCNC and KUSA are doing? What can I do to help - I'd be glad to contact whoever at the station, or at corporate hq in NY about this. It seems like it will be years, at best, until full power from lookout or wherever, and years more of what kmgh is (not) doing is absurd. If I can get everything other than kmgh (and I guess kbdi) where I live (40 mi n.w. of downtown denver) and from what I hear the folks south of downtown do even better, then it would seem that at least a signifcant portion of the denver metro area CAN ALREADY get ota hd from cbs, nbc, and fox (faux hd) - but NOT abc. In addition to pushing for full power antenna approval (years down the line) I wonder if it would be possible to also be focusing on getting kmgh to step up to the plate. You guys have clearly been doing great work with all this stuff, apparently for years now (much appreciated) - as a newbie let me just say again I'd be glad to help if I can.

I have taken the time to read thru all the postings in this thread back to the end of october, but there is very little about kmgh.

You go into the Installation screen then "Dish Setup". On that screen you'll see Cable, Area 1 and Area 2. Highlight Area 1 and you'll be able to enter your zipcode. When you're finished the unit should download new guide data including the local digitals.

It'll even include 7-1 which is 17 though just because you see it there doesnt mean you can tune the channel because you still need an acceptable signal of course.

Dan,

Nice, that worked (no 12-1, tho) - I haven't done much tweaking with the hughes - I didn't even expect to keep it (didn't unpack the manual etc) since I didn't think I had a shot at the ota locals. Now, it's looking a lot more likely that I will keep it, and what's more maybe need to rethink my having a 4:3 hd set as opposed to a 16:9 now that I know I can get more than 3 hd channels (via directtv). I still have almost a month "return" time on the receiver and the mits 4:3 tv. This is all bittersweet, since being able to get some ota hd may mean that I'll end up spending another $1000 + between keeping the hughes and moving from my mits 4:3 vs-50111(which does look pretty damn good to my hd novice eyes) to maybe a hitachi 16:9. And to think that all this started just a few months ago with my finally setting up a 5.1 sound system, being knocked out by that, and realizing that now my 27" 12 yr old tv REALLY didn't cut it anymore. Yikes!

Anyway, what do you think about the kmgh situation? Has the station mgr etc. been contacted (probably so, but maybe the more complaints/encouragement received the better). You guys must be worn out with sore heads from hitting brick walls etc., but you've accomplished a lot from my perspective - I doubt that kcnc and kusa etc. would be as 'far along' if not for the efforts of you folks, and I am aware that I am fortunate to be receiving (pun intended) some of the benefits of your labors.

After sitting through both BCC hearings, as well as the Planning Commission hearings, I think the whole thing will be decided on trust.

That is, who do the BCC trust the most? The tower will be very ugly, or it will be a great improvement. Either case can be true based on the written restrictions. If the developers do a good job, I think the tower will be well disguised and an improvement. However, if they try to do it as cheaply as possible, they can follow the written restrictions and still make the tower and building very ugly.

So, who do they trust? Do they trust the developer to do a good job, or do they trust those who say "look at what they have done in the past"?

It should be interesting.

-Wabisabi

Are you ready for some Football?!?!

Thomson Consumer Electronics (RCA) Has announced that they will sponsor the NFL Divisional playoff games on January 11th and the conference championship on the 19th for CBS in 1080I.
The games will be shot from the same locations as the NTSC broadcasts with the same commentary. This means no crackpot ex-high school track coaches giving the play-by-play!

YES!

Are you saying that we will have a choice between CBS and ABC? I think I have a HDCBS from LA. Will we be able to watch SB on this channel and also on OTA CBS or ABC? Does anybody know?

Happy Holidays,

Jacek

What todays press release meant is that CBS will be carrying the AFC Playoffs in HD (the Divisional round and AFC Championship). You should be able to get that from your CBS HD feed from L.A. off Dish Network. And of course OTA in HD from KCNC (channel 35).

The Super Bowl itself is only on ABC in HD and you'll need to be able to get ABC 17 here in town to see that game in HD.

Originally posted by dssset
Anyway, what do you think about the kmgh situation? Has the station mgr etc. been contacted. We keep telling them to move to RP, and they keep saying no. Pls feel free to pester them yourself -- more complaining can only help. "The squeeky wheel ..."

KMGH 303-832-7777 The Denver Channel (http://www.thedenverchannel.com)
General Manager: Cindy Valesquez
Dir. of Engineering: Thomas Craddock 303-832-0180 Thomas_Craddock@kmgh.com

BTW Didn't somebody say they were trying to get a tour of KMGH? I think it would be a good idea if we could be-little their DTV efforts in person.

ok, I sent ANOTHER xmitter move request to channel 7.

Here it is: my comprehensive review of last night's meeting in front of the board of county commissioners at the Jefferson County building. Sorry for the length -- take your time over the weekend to read it :) I tried to highlight some parts in bold.

The next meeting is on January 7 at 9am. At this meeting, BCDC will have to answer the questions at the end of this posting, and the BCC will vote on whether to approve the request. This meeting will be open to the public, but I doubt there will be any public testimony. At least I hope there isn't :)

OK, here's my long post recapping last night's part 2 of Public Testimony in front of the JeffCo board of county commissioners (BCC).

Same caveat applies: I’m in a better mood than after Monday’s meeting, but I may still unintentionally offend some people. I’m sorry if I do.

This meeting was infinitely more enjoyable than the meeting on Monday night. Those that spoke against the tower were clearly expressing their own opinions (except for a couple of cases) and not being spoon-fed false information by sCARE. Also, since scare didn’t hijack the meeting, there was ample opportunity for the YES crowd to speak. Of the individual testimonies, 24 support the replacement tower, 17 oppose. Fairly balanced, but more were in support :) Since I had more fun (and since most speakers support the tower), this post may be a little less cynical (sorry).

Commissioners are still:
(1) Michelle Lawrence (unsure how she'll vote)
(2) Patricia B. Holloway (I'll put money on her voting no)
(3) Richard Sheehan (I'll put a nickel on him voting yes)

The meeting was called to order at 5:13 again.

(1) started off by saying that it is inappropriate to make personal attacks on Staff (ie Heather Gutherless) or other witnesses. They implied that testimony that included personal attacks would be ignored. This was a direct allusion to Donald D'Antuono’s testimony on Monday night. (my recap of that is on page 156 of this thread)

(3) asked then “Does that mean they can’t make personal attacks on us?” Much laughter. (3) provided many highlights and quite a bit of laughter – something that was missing on Monday. I’m starting to think maybe the commissioners are growing weary of sCARE – we can only hope.

Everyone wanted to resolve the whole issue of who has authority to authorize a road as adequate for fire protection. So first up was Tim O’Hayre (O’Haire?), the fire marshall from Monday night. He presented the commissioners with a letter from the Fire Protection District Board of Directors that stated that the board fully supports Tim’s findings and acknowledges him as the sole decision maker, as code enforcer, on whether a road is adequate. They also said any other presentations were not authorized by the Fire Protection District. Woo hoo! This means that Fire Chief Close’s testimony that the road is not fit for fire protection is, well, not fit! The letter continued “the behavior of Steve Close…” Marshall O’Hayre cut himself off: “maybe I shouldn’t read this out loud” (remembering the commissioners admonishment against personal attacks). It’s clear that the Board was pretty upset with Chief Close presenting his testimony as representative of the Fire Protection District (more on Chief Close later – after the intermission). Mr. O’Hayre then detailed the rationale for approving the road. There was something about the fuel storage tanks needing a permit after 1/1/03, but apparently BCDC has already started that paperwork and the tanks, as they exist today, are in compliance.

That testimony was awesome – it settled the issue about the road being safe for firefighting for once and for all. The road does NOT present a hazard for firefighting equipment or firefighting personnel. Period. End of story. (Unless you’re testifying against the tower, in which case, you’ll continue to insist that the road is unfit :rolleyes: ).

It appears there were some more independent HOAs that couldn’t testify on Monday due to the sCARE-a-thon. First up was Ann somebody (she didn’t spell her last name for the record). She represents Plan JeffCo. Her argument was that Option B is more visible than the current tower situation (sure, a lower tower that’s camo’d is MUCH more visible than TWO STINKING TOWERS ON TWO SEPARATE MOUNTAINS!!!) She then showed a bunch of slides showing a bunch of park names with how many acres are in each of them. Not sure what the point of that was. Then she showed a picture of the ugly Channel 59 tower (um, dear, that’s the one we want to take down). Best moment? A slide showing the existing tower (you know, the one that would come down if this is approved?) from the Mother Cabrini Shrine with the Mother Cabrini statue in the foreground. Literal quote: “you have to wonder what Mother Cabrini would think”. Loud groans of disgust from the gallery.

Her ten minutes were up, so Ann asked if she could stay up and use her 3 minutes of private citizen time. They allowed it. Her private testimony was that she’s been on the mountain for 27 years (gee, that’s less than 50, which is how long the towers have been there!), you can’t trust the broadcasters (that’s why there are enforcement clauses), and the road is unsafe for firefighters (didn’t that just get settled, like 10 minutes ago? ******)

Next was “Friends of Red Rocks” representative (Gregor?) Campbell. I thought for sure he would be a NO, but as it turns out, FORR is not taking a position for or against the towers (kind of refreshing, no?) Since FORR was asked for its opinion by the county, he was here to share FORR’s position. FORR is concerned with 3 aspects: 1) RF interference in Red Rocks, 2) aesthetics in Red Rocks, 3) RFI in the area around Red Rocks. They met with RF engineers (I believe from both sides), sound technicians that work for Red Rocks (one of sCARE’s arguments is that the new tower would render Red Rocks Amphitheater impotent because of increased RFI). Their conclusions were as follows: 1) RF will NOT interfere with Red Rocks sound equipment (POW!), 2) Option B is an improvement over the current situation (ZAP!), and 3) RFI will not adverserly affect the community around Red Rocks (KAPLOOEY! [have I been watching too many Batman reruns?]). During his testimony, (3) looked interested (rare for him during all these hours of mostly repetitive testimony), and (1) appeared to be paying rapt attention. Mr. Campbell wrapped up by saying FORR does not object to the tower replacement; if approved, they prefer Option B. Either way, there is no net increase of towers on Mt. Morrison (finally, someone who gets it!).

Finally, it was time for public testimony.

Oh wait, there’s one more HOA: Bear Creek Area Citizen’s Association, represented by Ron Darling. (3) asked if he had a letter authorizing him to be their representative (way to go (3)!) His argument against replacing The Two Towers with one (sorry, couldn’t resist) was that we can see the antennae on the current towers now! (duh, let’s take some of those towers down, mmmKay?) He’s also worried about a proliferation of towers. (hmmm, current towers-2+1 = a proliferation?!?) Interesting note: this speaker only used about 3 of his allotted 10 minutes of time. (3) said he appreciated his conciseness and brevity (so did the rest of us)

Now, it was time for public testimony.

Unless there are any more HOAs out there…going, going, gone.

PUBLIC TESTIMONY
Greg Dobbs was first up. He was at the meeting Monday, but couldn’t speak due to the sCARE-a-thon. He appeared via videotape, courtesy of our good friends at KRMA (sometimes it’s nice to have friends with a TV studio). (3) wondered aloud if maybe the commissioners could appear via videotape at the hearing (1) said “I thought you were already a hologram” (3) “Am I that transparent?” (1) apologized for the bad humor and said it would only get worse as the night went on. Greg’s tape finally got going. I was busting my gut laughing so hard I couldn’t take any notes. I’m working with Tiffany at KRMA to get a transcript or copy of the tape so I can transcribe it word for word. It was THAT good. He basically tore sCARE a new one for taking the whole time, debunked their 3000+ signature petition, and said more in 3 minutes than I could say in 5. A truly righteous rant.

Our very own RonAuger went next – he posted the text of his testimony earlier; I won’t repeat it here. When he said he didn’t have any slides or tapes, (1) smiled. At the end, (1) told him “you’ve got our job nailed”. I saw lots of heads nodding as he spoke.

Marnie Sheffield also had to appear via videotape in support of the tower. She said what we’ve all be thinking: “If you’re getting radiated, MOVE!”. She reiterated that everyone saw the towers before they moved in, they knew what they were getting into. Furthermore, this is a replacement, now a new tower.

Bonnie Cady was also scheduled to testify on Monday, but had to videotape her testimony because of the sCARE-a-thon. She is in support of the tower. She reminded the commissioners that other people outside of JeffCo will benefit from the tower. It would be “arrogant” to not allow the rest of the DMA to access PBS [in HDTV]. Her speech could be “Think of the rest of the Denver area”

Our good friend Mbuchana was next. He reminded the commissioners that this is really a regional issue, not a local one. Mark – I was hoping you could post the text of your comments, so I didn’t really take notes. The one interesting bit was that (2) asked him at the end what county he lived in. He answered Larimer. (2) then asked him: “do you have mountains in Larimer County”. Answer: “Yes, Rocky Mountain National Park for example” (2) was clearly less than impressed that other mountains aren’t being suggested for broadcasting to the area.

Former Prime Minister of Britain, Winston Churchill, spoke next. I’m kidding, this was the other Winston Churchill. The Winston Churchill that’s a 50-year resident of the area and supporter of the replacement tower. He said: “None of us bought our homes in the middle of the night!” (1) smiled at that comment [could she be coming around? She’s so hard to read:(] His biggest point: There are 2 towers on Mt. Morrison now. If the application is approved, there will be 2 towers on Mt. Morrison. If the application is denied, there will be 2 towers on Mt. Morrison. The only issue left to decide is: what do we want those towers to look like? (1) & (2) [and most of the gallery] had big smiles as he was spelling his last name and it became obvious he shared a name with one of the 20th century’s most well-known leaders. He said he was born far enough back that he wasn’t named after THE Winston Churchill. (3) asked if THE Winston Churchill was named for him

Phil Golburg went up next. Phil sat next to me at both meetings. He’s interested in HDTV, but doesn’t have a setup yet. I gave him the URL for this board so he can learn about HDTV, and I gave him the URL for sCARE he can have a good laugh. Anyway, Phil had an entirely different take on supporting the tower. His concern is that if JeffCo doesn’t decide something soon, the FCC will step in and decide where and DTV broadcasting will eminate from. He thinks that if people in JeffCo sit down and figure out a good plan, it reduces the risk that the feds will put a big tower on top of the Taj Mahal and dictate that Denver gets DTV from there. He urged the commissioners to make the best deal without getting the feds involved. Interesting.

Evelyn Cone, another tower supporter, then spoke. Evelyn’s concern is for EWTN (Catholic channel 23). As it stands now, the antenna that transmits for channel 23, 59 (Pax), and 63 (Telemundo) is in zoning violation. If JeffCo decides to force that antenna down, those three stations could go dark. Evelyn said “I don’t know about the whole tower thing, but I want to urge you to keep EWTN on the air”. She was very nervous and unpolished, but her passion for EWTN came through. She listed a bunch of teachings of Mother Angelica (I guess it’s her station or she has programs on it or something) that seemed to resonate with (1). Not the strongest testimony, but it was another argument to build the new tower, so I’ll take it!

Jim Riddle was next. He’s the chief engineer for Channel 57 (I believe that’s Trinity Broadcasting Network aka the Paul and Jan network). He explained some differences between analog and digital TV (you know, it strikes me as funny that he was here supporting the tower since TBN is taking an active stance fighting the transition to DTV. Odd.) He reminded the commissioners that DTV transmissions have to reach at least 90% of the analog viewing audience, and that where weak analog signals can be snowy, when there’s a weak DTV signal, there is no picture at all. He reminded the commissioners that local broadcasters help with emergency notifications like the wildfires last year, freeing up the phone lines to JeffCo emergency personnel that would be used by people inquiring about emergencies otherwise. He also said Squaw doesn’t provide the same coverage. I thought it was nice to see an engineer from a station not directly impacted out to support the new tower.

Next up, another supporter, Bridgid Cleroulp. She says her sick mother is unable to leave the house, but is able to attend Mass via channel 23 every day. She lambasted the commercial television networks for promoting violence and selfishness and stated that 59 (Pax) and 23 (EWTN) provide an alternative with free, over-the-air signals. She mentioned that when she sits at a stop light, she doesn’t admire the light pole, she doesn’t think telephone poles are particularly pretty, and she doesn’t enjoy the wail of sirens on emergency vehicles. But she recognized that all those devices, like the TV towers, are there for the greater good.

Santellavision was up next. He showed the coverage map for DTV-38 that basically showed any of us west of Wadsworth couldn’t get the signal. The map (thanks RonAuger!) was entered into evidence, and the commissioners will have a chance to look at it in comparison to the professional (ie: not real-world) coverage maps. Again, I was hoping Ernie could post his notes/testimony so I didn’t take any notes.

Kay Gerd was up next testifying on behalf of Patti Walsh, who was present on Monday but was denied her opportunity to speak (thanks again sCARE). She said any decrease in property value or inability to sell houses in the area is more likely due to the downturned economy, and not because of any attempt to consolidate towers. She lauded Pax, Telemundo and EWTN for their positive programming and actually had to be notified by (1) that her time was up.

Pat someone-or-other (I wish the commissioners would insist on people following the instructions and spelling their last names. Argh.), who lives on or around Lookout, came up to tell the commissioners that the HOA representatives do NOT speak for all the members of the HOAs (excellent – I have a theory about sCARE creating puppet HOAs, but I’ll save that for the “Denver anti-HDTV conspiracy” thread :)) She also pointed out that things like the hi-tension power lines, cell phone towers, and CDOT variable-display signs on the highway aren’t particularly attractive, but they’re there for the greater good. I was pleased to see members of the HOAs that testified against the tower coming out to support the tower. I think it’ll help the commissioners see past the sCARE façade.

George Volland was up next; he was the first individual to oppose the tower. He’s lived at 1962 Montaigne Dr. E for 22 years (not half as long as the towers. Hmm.) He had a whole little presentation folder made up for the commissioners that included the fake sCARE photo simulation of the new tower. He insisted that PBS is greedy (yeah, that’s the ticket). I don’t remember, I think he showed a bunch of photos.

His wife, Carol went next. She showed some more photos from the presentation folder (prepared for the Jefferson County board of county commissioners by George & Carol Volland). I’ve got a question. If they have to put great big stickers on the photos showing us where the towers are, are the towers really that objectionable at all? Her points were that this is a new tower farm, not a tower replacement. Option B is a farm, not one tower. After about 5 ½ minutes (individuals are limited to 3 minutes), she was asked to wrap up. She nodded and kept on reading her statement. After about 6 minutes, (1) told her: “thank you. You can sit down now”. She said “well, my husband didn’t use all his time, so I’ll just use his leftover time. (1): “no he didn’t: he used 5 minutes! Sit down”. She kept trying to talk, but got booed down by the gallery. That was awesome. Tensions were high, it had been a couple hours, so we had a little break.

Intermission

During the break I met a lurker here who, for what I believe are good reasons, keeps a low profile. It was good talking with you. I also ran into that other guy from LCG (I wish I could remember his name – I’m thinking Shawn) and we had a good little chat. Nothing really new except for what I posted earlier today. Unfortunately, the other avsforum guys had to leave, so now I can make up whatever I want to and noone will be able to refute me. Bwuhahaha.

OK, first up after the break was me. I was VERY nervous and faltered during my testimony several times. But I got up and gave it my best shot. Here were my talking points: the CARE simulation (I hope I didn’t say sCARE by force of habit) of the tower and building makes the tower appear to be all black. There was no attempt to camouflage it (hope that wasn’t construed as an attack by the commissioners). I told them I believed that the whole alternate site debate was moot since there are already telecommunications towers on Mt. Morrison. I also told them the discussion about the channel 59 tower being in zoning violation now is moot since the proposal eliminates that tower. I told them that if I thought my kids were being exposed to lethal radiation, I’d move in a heartbeat [does that mean that people who believe the towers are dangerous and insist on keeping their kids on the mountain should be charged with child abuse?] I told the commissioners that maybe they should consider their legacy. If they approve this and the LCG2 app, there will be 4 fewer towers on the mountains. I took a shot at CARE’s sCARE-a-thon on Monday night too, saying that it appeared to be one 4-hour filibuster by CARE designed to slow down the process and prevent individuals from getting their time to speak [anyone who stayed behind – what was the mood in the room when I made that comment? I couldn’t see behind me :(] I urged the commissioners to prevent that sort of activity at any future meetings. Finally, I told (2) that she made a great point on Monday when she asked for a clearer photo or scale model of the building because she couldn’t see it in the photo simulations. I told here that that was the exact point – the tower and building WILL be hard to see when completed. (2) told me: “that’s not what I said. I was talking about the model. I want a better model” [there was a model of the mountains there about half the size of a ping-pong table with push-pins about 1cm tall representing the towers]. I apologized for misunderstanding her comment on Monday and took my seat. A guy nearby me told me when I sat down that (2) was a “lying bitch” and that she did in fact say what I said she said. In any case, it was my recollection.

Next was Fred Vasser, who was in support of channel 23 (they sure had a lot of supporters there. Nice to see other special-interests whose goals align with ours). He said it’s a free station that people depend on. He claimed the RF from the towers is less potent than the radiation from the sun, and without 10cm of lead protecting your head, you’re not protected from the sun. (3) said “that’s good for me: my wife is always telling my I have about 10cm of lead in my head” Laughs all around.

Another supporter, Soloman Sullivan was next. He’s a 40-year resident of Colorado, 22-year resident of Genessee. He denied that he was supporting the tower only because he’s good friends with Leo Bradley (I guess he owns the land on Mt. Morrison that BCDC is trying to develop?) He smiled and told them that he thinks that the planning staff does a great job (hey, if the brown-nosing works…)

This next presenter (Gary Sohrwide) I don’t think I can do justice to. He asked if he could perform a character and use a prop. (1) said: “we have many characters in here already. Go ahead”. After a couple minutes of setup, he started some whole spiel about being a magician. He had a fancy yellow vest that he said was his “law suit”. He then pulled out a PVC pipe model of the tower structure in Option B. 2-ft ugly white pipe representing a professionally camouflaged tower. He said: “look how I can make 5 towers into one! By using some Christmas ribbon, I can connect them and make 1 tower!” (of course, he’s running the ribbon around the pipes as he speaks) “Now look [placing extensions on top of the support structures] how I make 5 towers into 9 – but wait, it’s only 1!” This guy was a piece of work. I think his point was that Option B is several towers, not just one. He could’ve said that in 30 seconds instead of wasting all our time. Fartknocker. After he was done, (3) asked if he could make his big ugly prop disappear. (1): “I suggest that you do”. Dude keeps walking up to his seat. (1): “someone remove that”. Couple of sCARE cronies carry the prop away. I think the sCARE crew loved his theatrics, noone else appreciated it.

Janet Marks of 2013 Montaigne testified next. She says she bought her house before the 1981 erection of the Channel 59 tower on Mt. Morrison (but was it before the early ‘50s erection of the Denver emergency services tower? Hmm?). She’s upset that there are parts of Red Rocks fenced off due to RF hotspots. She says the Channel 59 tower is illegal (so let us tear it down already!). This was the best part -- pay attention RonAuger and mbuchana – “why do we even have to broadcast all the way to Parker, Ft. Collins, and Kansas anyway?” I’ll leave that one alone. She had to be told to wrap up as she was overtime (there’s a little clock in the podium I learned that tells you exactly how much time you have left – no excuse for going over)

Andy Beck of 324 Park Circle went next. His reason for opposing the tower was architectural. I guess he’s a professional architect or something. He wondered where the buildings, roadway, truck turnaround, fuel storage, lighting, and generators are in the Mt. Morrison-provided drawing of Option B (I guess that’s a valid point). He said that expanding on a bad design to match the bad design is a bad idea. He questioned what materials the building would be made of. (1) had to tell him to wrap up. He said he would, then continued talking. (1) insisted that his time was up and made him sit down. But he had a lovely assistant (his 8-10 year old daughter) helping put slides up.

Lorraine Anickel of 1833 Montaine Dr E was next. She opposes the tower. She said that highway beautification removed all the billboards between Denver and Colorado Springs. She says that no matter how well camoflauged the tower is, it’ll appear black when lit from behind by the setting sun (I think that’ll be hard with Mt. Morrison in the way, but whatever) (1) was studying the sign-in sheet [probably wondering how much longer she’d have to listen to testimony] during Lorraine’s testimony.

Tom Baran of PO Box 146 Idaho Springs [you can live in a PO Box! Wow! My PO Boxes were always too small], the owner of Squaw Mountain [gee I wonder what his opinions will be] was next. He brought a binder of several hundred pages up and a full briefcase. (1) remarked: “that’s an awful lot for 3 minutes!”. He smiled and gave (3) a Santa hat. (2) about died laughing at that. (3) did not put the hat on. He said Jay Jacobsmeyer, the BCDC RF guy, made misleading statements on Monday. He then put his own report down (1700+ pages) and let Jay’s report of only 3 pages flutter down on top of his binder. He claims that Jay used a TV antenna to test FM reception from Squaw and an FM antenna to test FM reception from Morrison. He says that the ODP is already in place for Squaw, and it can be developed for DTV. He concluded and (3) gave him the Santa hat back: “this was just a joke, right?” Tom gave it back to (3): “No, you can keep it” [unrelated note: on the way out, I was talking to Ken Smith and Tom came by. I extended my hand and wished him a Merry Christmas. He shook and said “same to you” but I did NOT feel the love.]

Next was Victoria West, co-owner of Squaw. She lives with Tom in the same PO Box. She claims Squaw is viable and that all mountain transmitters need boosters to hit Boulder, not just Squaw. She reminded the commissioners that the DT-38 test was done using only 23.8kw or 2.4% of the allowable signal strength. She also said that the reports done for Squaw (by Al Hislop) were automated by the receivers and would’ve indicated any ghosting [what – you didn’t get any ghosting testing a digital signal! Holy cow!]. She also said that Squaw paid for the test, not sCARE. Al just volunteered his expert (but not licensed in Colorado) services. (1) told her to wrap up; her time was up. “But it’s so hard, there’s so much information” (1) “well, I suggest you do stop”. She finally did. (2) asked if their development site is at the same place as Channel 12 [good question] Answer: No, it’s downhill from there [and thus has an even worse reception area than channel 12, doesn’t it?] (2) How long have the Squaw towers [for ch 12] been there? Answer: I don’t know.

Larry Milner, of 2093 Montaine Dr E was next. As predicted, he was an opposer of the tower. His speech was “Think of the wildfires!” This was the biggest news item of the night: Captain Close is now private citizen Close (OK, he’s been suspended, not exactly sure what his status is with the FD now). Steve Close was the guy who said he spoke for the Fire Protection District, when in fact he had no such authorization. I guess the FPD Board doesn’t like it when you challenge their appointed spokesman in sworn testimony to the county. Larry insists that the fire chief is the one who makes the call about whether a road is safe or not [didn’t we clear this up AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FREAKIN’ MEETING?!?]. He says the proposed tower site is in the middle of a wildfire area. Whatever. Next.

Mirium Hanna was next, and she supports the tower. She’s a property owner in JeffCo and believes that tower consolidation should be a priority of the commissioners. She told the opponents to “quit whining” – you can’t go buying a half-a-million-dollar home and then try to remove the towers! Their position is “laughable, if not patently absurd”. She says no, I don’t want to live right beside a tower – so I didn’t buy a house on Lookout! Finally, if Squaw is such a viable site, why weren’t all the towers located there in the first place?

Colin Barton of 1943 Columbine Ct was next. He opposes the tower. (3) offered him the Santa hat [it was a running gag about (2) and (1) wearing red and black and (3) not getting the memo – Colin said he DID get the memo as he was wearing red and black] Colin says this proposal is all about profit (yup, that’s PBS’s driving force – how can we make the PBS empire even more wealthy – and that EWTN – they’re the next Microsoft, I’m sure of it :rolleyes: ) He claims the proposal is totally egotistical. Here was the best part of his spiel: with HDTV, we run the risk of increased TV watching and more obesity (stunned looks from most people, but I agree that too much TV watching makes people fat – just look at me :)) He says TV is too violent (we’re talking about PBS, EWTN, and Pax – network devoted to anti-violence) and that we’re running the risk of continued violations by the stations. (1) had to tell him his time was up

Gunther Grothe came up to oppose the tower based on how much people have paid to protect themselves from RF exposure. He said one guy spent $40K on RF shielding (3) shakes his head in sympathy. Another guy spent $20K (3) shakes his head again. He had lots of pictures of RF shielding.

Someone-or-other Uhes of 100 Wood Ln was next. She wanted to know why the JeffCo commissioners haven’t acted on the zoning violation at the Channel 59 tower since 1999. Why, one time, I was doing some improvements, and I had a zoning problem, blah, blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah. The Channel 59 tower is abandoned since it’s no longer being used for microwave transmission. (1): Your time is up. Uhes: And another time there was this situation blah blah blah (1): “Thank you” [telling her to sit her butt down before she gets down off the podium and gets medieval on it] Uhes: “I urge you to vote no”

James Vickery of 531 Lindsey Rd went next to oppose the tower. He says his house was built in 1923 (1924 according to JeffCo records, but that’s hardly significant). He’s an astronomer. He started reading a letter he had previously sent to the commissioners, (3) wasn’t interested in hearing it and held up his copy to indicate that he was familiar with the contents. It was something to do with a guy who ran a business out of his home dealing with sensitive electronics that had to quit because of interference. (3) asked him how many employees did he have Answer: it was a business where he sold products to various… (3) and how many people did he employ? Answer: It was a wonderful product that he had that he couldn’t continue… (3) was it a big business? How many employees lost their jobs? Answer: stunned silence. His 5 minutes were up anyway.

Louise Saindon brought about 100 signatures on a petition to keep Channel 23 on the air. This was a wee little old lady who was quite endearing to everyone. She said she didn’t care what mountain it was on, if Squaw will work, that’s fine (no! don’t say that! We need it on Morrison or Lookout!) (sCARE really liked hearing that, by the way). Her only concern was keeping EWTN on the air. She said she grew up with the towers, and really didn’t even notice them anymore. She said, in fact, that the lights on the tips are kind of comforting (the gallery starts just cracking up, it was hilarious), and even Christmasy, so what’s the big fuss about? Everyone – commissioners, sCARE, and tower supporters was enjoying a good laugh after all the high drama of Monday and that night.

Liz Bishoff of the Colorado Digitization Project was next, and while supports the tower, she spent most of her time describing the Digitization Project and how KRMA in HDTV will enable people to enjoy more of Colorado’s historical treasures.

Timothy C. Cutforth was next to oppose the tower. He made sure we all knew that he was a licensed Professional Engineer in Colorado [confirmed – active since 1980]. He says Squaw works and showed another map with Squaw’s coverage. (1) had to tell him when his time up. He mentioned on his way out that Catholic TV has no reason to die out (I presume he means they could move to Squaw)

Laura Sampson was next. She’s a 30-year JeffCo resident and volunteers at KRMA. She urged the commissioners to UNANIMOUSLY vote yes on the replacement tower. (2) asked JeffCo Staff [Heather] if the KRMA tower was in danger of coming down. Answer: Not immediately (I think (2) needs to have the whole DTV transition thing explained to her – she thinks they can continue broadcasting from the current analog site forever)

This next guy was GREAT. He looked like he was about 100 and he’s lived at 630 F St. in a mobile home park in Golden since 1969. His name was Carl Bieniewski. He graduated from the Colorado School of Mines in 1948 and remembers when the first TV towers went up 50 years ago. People’s reaction then was “Wow! I can get free TV in my very own house!” Now suddenly, they’re an eyesore. He mentioned that back in ’48 when he was at the School of Mines, there wasn’t any I-70 or most of the homes on the hills around there. He suggested that instead of the “Gateway to the Rockies”, JeffCo should be called the “Suburbia Gateway to the Rockies”. He said that while he does have a satellite dish, they shouldn’t turn off the TV for poor people who can’t afford cable to satellite.

Marinette Huwa, a 28-year resident, spoke in support of channel 23. Nothing new.

Jack Hancock, a 50-year resident (I am SO glad all the older folks weren’t the snotty rich ones trying to remove the towers. It’s good to have some people who pre-date the towers supporting them!), had a home built on Lookout Mountain in 1962. He said when he heard about all this mess with this application, he had to ask someone to point out which one was Mt. Morrison. When he saw which one it was, his reaction was priceless. “What? That one? Heck, that mountain’s unattractive anyway! Nothing but rocks and grass up there! That’s gotta be the most unattractive piece of real estate in the entire county!” He probably said some more stuff, but I was cracking up too bad and couldn’t concentrate. I think the sCARE folks were surprised enough that they were caught off guard and laughed too.

Next guy up was someone Enstrom. (3) jokingly suggested that he be sworn in again. I think he’s been around the BCC before. He’s a former county commissioner (so I guess he HAS been around the BCC before) and says that being on the BCC is the 3rd worst job in the county. 1st is the dog catcher and 2nd is on the school board. He supports the tower. He stated that he drove up the road to the Morrison site and doesn’t understand all the fuss about it – it’s fine. Some of the driveways on Lookout Mountain are worse. Possibly the best moment of the night: he came up with a new acronym for CARE: CAVE – Citizens Against Virtually Everything. Whole place, sCARE included, was laughing.

Susan Marcus, 324 Park Cir, opposes the tower. Her testimony was interesting to me. Remember on Monday when Jay Jacobsmeyer said that High Plains Elementary School in Cherry Creek has higher RF than Ralston Elementary? Turns out there’s a Sprint cell tower on the roof of HPES. She told the commissioners to deny the tower application – after all, we aren’t “governed by majority rule” in this country. We need to do what’s right. There were some people close to me who were stunned to learn that America is no longer a democracy.

I missed the next guy’s name completely. He claims that Bear Creek Development Corporation is in the business of developing (no kidding – maybe they should include development in their business name or something). He says they’ll be back if this application is denied (so let’s get it approved already). He says he doesn’t care about the towers, the little red light doesn’t bother him any more than the big white light of the moon (kind of a refreshing perspective from a tower opponent). His concern is that once BCDC starts developing on Morrison, they’ll continue developing (like, I don’t know, building YOUR HOUSE?) Anyway I thought it was nice to have a guy who opposes the tower not ranting about how evil towers inherently are.

Last speaker of the night (whew!) was Nick Matthews of 817 S. Youngfield Ct (useless trivia: I used to live at 499 S. Youngfield Ct until we bought our house in Brighton) He went up to the podium and stated and spelled his first and last names (thank you very much) and then stated he was here to testify (now picture this older gentleman trying very hard to do the testimony right and speaking quite slowly) in case #01-108495RZ (as he starts reading the case number, the gallery, quite giddy from being there for coming on 5 hours, starts giggling and it gets progressively louder the closer he gets to finishing the case number). He’s about to launch into his testimony and the ever-impish (3) says “I’m sorry – which case number was that again?” I tell you, without (3) to break the monotony, the evening would not have been as much fun. Thanks (3). ANYWAY…apparently Nick donated a bunch of land a long time ago for Open Space so he’s quite well known by those in the know. Now that I know, I guess I’m in the know. He says that we’ve heard testimony tonight that this won’t be the only addition on the BCDC land (huh? What testimony was he listening to?) He said instead of building more towers, we should be “tearing the dang things down”. Mr. Matthews – with all due respect, this proposal would be tearing two dang things down.

It was 9:57, and they abruptly stopped calling witnesses.

Questions For The Applicant
From the County Attorney:
* What’s the footprint of the current Channel 59 tower and what’s the footprint of Option B? (3) wants to know if the Option B footprint is limited in size in the application.
* Why did you change the size of the building from 10K to 15K square feet?
* The proposed antennae are 5 ft, why do the written limitation allow for 8 ft?
* What’s your position on the conditions suggested by zoning staff? (rock façade, size and color of signage, etc.)

From (2):
* I want a scale model – will that be ready for the January hearing? Answer: Yes, we couldn’t get it done in the 72 hours since you asked for it

From (3):
* I want the legal ability to ensure the current KRMA analog tower gets removed if this is application is approved.
* What’s the level of increase or decrease in RF on public lands (like Red Rocks park)
* How many more antennas could your tower support? Is there the chance of consolidation from other towers on Lookout?
* I want to see some samples or an artist’s rendering of the new building. Will the building be plain concrete or done more to blend in?

That's good reading, dr_mal. My boss walked by and asked what I was doing, and I said I was reading about testimony at a Jefferson County commission meeting last nite, and he laughed his ass off and told me to get a life.

Just got back from a couple of days out of town. I'm getting KUSA-DT at 99% on my Dish 6000, approximately 49.5 miles from Republic Plaza.

Great report David! Thanks!

David,
Same, great report!!
I wish i could have stayed. What did Timothy C. Cutforth's reception results show?
And what's planned for the next meeting... the rest of the list of public testimony and response to the Comiss's questions?

It's my (without information) feeling that there will be no more public testimony. I figure they had 10 hours set aside for that, and when the time was up, it's up. I could be wrong -- this was my first involvement with any government proceedings.

I would imagine that BCDC will respond to the questions, and then the commissioners will vote. Ken Smith assured me that the vote will happen in that January meeting.

Timothy C. Cutforth's reception results were very hard for me to read. I think he was using a similar colour-coded dot system to indicate reception or not, but from my perspective, I couldn't really tell where reception was good or bad. I think it's safe to assume he reported good reception everywhere (at least to the same degree as Hislop -- maybe some shadowing in Boulder that's mitigated by a booster)

David,
I believe it's up to the Commissioners. I think they can extend the hearings if they want to hear everybody who signed up. I think that happened at the planning board hearings. They don't want to appear arrogant and not hear THEIR public.

And, at the last KWGN hearing, they postponed the vote because one of the board had to leave before the end of the hearings. They gave an option to KWGN to either live with the vote of the remaining board or wait until the absent member could review the transcripts and then they would all vote together. It postponed the vote for about 2 weeks.

And as we all know... (S)CARE went down in flames!!!!

P.S. Just sent (again) a letter to KMGH and the FCC regarding their lack of an acceptable DTV signal. Keep writing guys, I'm not certain, but it may have had an effect on KUSA getting their butts in gear.

By popular demand (well, dr_mal asked for it :)), here is the text of my testimony to the JeffCo commissioners. I stuck to this pretty closely.

-----
I’m Mark Buchanan from Fort Collins, and I have come down from Fort Collins tonight to support the Mt. Morrison Replacement Tower proposal.

I’ve been interested in and have followed the development of Digital and High Definition Television for a number of years, because I believe this technology radically improves what television can offer. And, the types of programming offered on public television in particular can benefit greatly from this new technology.

Naturally, because of my interest in digital television, I am anxious to see Denver area broadcasters get on the air with a digital signal that I can receive from my home in Fort Collins. So, I have been following the broadcast tower issues in Jefferson County for some time. I have gotten a much better feel for what some of the issues are and why some previous applications have been rejected.

The Mt. Morrison Replacement Tower proposal is different from past proposals. A major effort at getting community input resulted in the “Alternative B” design.

One of the “facts” that I have always assumed is that a broadcast tower must be visible in order to be functional. “Line-of-sight” is a requirement. So, no matter where you put a tower, someone generally isn’t going to be thrilled about looking at it.

But both of the Mt. Morrison alternatives, and especially the innovative below-the-ridgeline Alternative B, dramatically reduce the visual impact from what you would ordinarily expect from a broadcast tower. They are a significant improvement from what is on Mt. Morrison now. And, the tower that is there now will not go away if the application is rejected, even if the non-complying antennas are removed. And, of course, approval of the replacement tower will remove the Channel 6 installation on Lookout Mountain as well.

There have been previous concerns with RF emissions in the area. The removal of the Channel 6 tower on Lookout Mountain, and the use of directional antennas on the replacement tower will substantially reduce RF Levels on Lookout Mountain.

I’d also like to comment on a couple of things that I heard in Monday’s testimony by CARE and homeowners’ groups.

First—I’ve tried really hard to figure out how removing the channel 6 tower from Lookout Mountain and replacing the Channel 59 tower on Mt. Morrison with a less visible structure will reduce property values. Tower consolidation will IMPROVE property values, if anything.

Second—there were references to a CSU study on RF emissions and health that will be completed in two or three years. It was made to sound like this is the first such study on this that has ever been done. It isn’t, and that’s the reason the standards exist.

- So, it seems to me that if you are concerned about aesthetics in the Lookout & Mt. Morrison areas, you should whole-heartedly support this proposal.
- If you are concerned about RF emissions, you should whole-heartedly support this proposal.
- If you want fewer towers in the area, you should whole-heartedly support this proposal.
- And even if you are concerned about property values, you should whole-heartedly support this proposal.

Thank you.
-----

I kind of got caught by surprise when Commissioner #2 (see David's key in his terrific and entertaining review) started to ask me a question after I had started to walk away. I forgot that they might do that. As David reported, I was asked what county I lived in and if we had any mountains there. I bumbled something like "yes, and Rocky Mountain National Park" though I'm not sure that is technically part of the county. What I SHOULD have said is something like "Yes, we do have mountains. I'm a Colorado native. I camp and hike in Colorado. I love the mountains. And this is still a good proposal." Oh well!

Mark

Those of you watching the Kansas-UCLA game in analog should be aware that the HD game of the day from Kentucky between KU and Indiana is on the DTV channel.

Thanks KCNC for passing on the HD game even though it is not our local game. Oh by the way (you knew I couldn't resist), KUSA is off the air at the moment and not passing any live HD so far, as near as I can tell, did I mention they are Colorado's Leading Station.

Dave fantastic job summarizing the meetings this week. I would bet you did a better job than the commissioners in paying attention and listening to the testimony. Any chance you will be moving to Jeffco and running for office soon?

hehe I had to move OUT of JeffCo because property values were too high. Should've mentioned THAT to the commissioners.

I am picking up KUSA-DT 9-1 and it is coming in pretty well. Although would be nice to see some HD content there. Sounds like we are a few months out for that though.

BTW: Are any local DTV stations doing DD 5.1 for sound? I thought KMGH might for those that can receive it (I can't).

- Dustin

KRMA has had a few select 5.1 shows from the Network but thats about it. 17 doesnt do 5.1 yet.

dr_mal said
hehe I had to move OUT of JeffCo because property values were too high. Should've mentioned THAT to the commissioners.

Maybe you can afford to move back after the towers are built on Lookout and Morrison and the property values all along the front range plummet (as (S)CARE predicts). Hey, maybe all the (S)CARE folks will try to sell their places at once and we all can afford front range mountain property then. Gee, I hope (S)CARE doesn't accuse anyone backing the towers as simply wanting to be able to buy cheap property in Jeffco.
:D

To be honest, that's specifically why I didn't bring up the fact that I used to live in JeffCo but had to move to someplace affordable when I bought my first house. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I don't want to do anything to give sCARE/CAVE any ammo.

Still new to the thread and I posted some ??'s awhile back after I could not get reception in Westminster from the silver sensor or the terk TV55 antennas. Based on Ernie's comment on his dad's antenna, I purchased the CM 3021 antenna as well. I was able to receive pbs (6.1) and cbs (4.1) in areas of the house where I could get NO SIGNAL before with the other two antennas mentioned. Went to the attic, and reception improved to a great signal on those two channels - cannot get ABC (7.1) however...., but I expected that based on the posts I read. Fox also comes in very strong (31.1)- the best of all of them, too bad not in 1080i.

I can lock in 4.1 and 6.1 at about 65 to 70, and 31.1 about 85 or so. I have 100 ft of rg6 cable - would an inexpensive in line amp from R. shack help any??

I am pretty excited about the repection from the local channels now. I also have Directv and the HD channels I receive there made me want to pursue the local HD reception as well..., and thanks to this site I did...

A couple of other questions however....., does anybody here in the Denver area need to use a rotator for their antenna?, if so any suggestions? It did not seem it was necessary, but am I wrong assuming this with the CM 3021 antenna? Are all the HD towers on the republic plaza building making a rotator unnecessary?

Now I just need to complete the attic installation and run the RG6 down the outside of the side of my house (down the same path where one of my DiretV cables is) and feed it into the basement via the same directv hole to my HD200 receiver. Unfortunately, it is about 30 or more foot drop from the attic hole to the ground, so I might seek the help of an expert at this to ground it too - any suggestions or names of installer??

thanks again to this site and your comments..., I most likely would not have pursued this if not for your help and comments.. I can now look forward to some awesome HD content.

Congratulations on your success, Rckymtn! You should also be able to lock onto 9-1 (or 16 maybe on your STB) - that's KUSA's digital signal and at least some people around (including me) are receiving it more strongly than KCNC or KRMA. Those 3 are on Republic and KDVR is on Lookout. In my case, and I think in just about everyone else's case that I can remember, KDVR's signal is strong enough that if you point your antenna at Republic, you'll receive KDVR just fine. That's definitely my case, as KDVR is about 150 degrees around from Republic where my antenna is pointed. An amp may help you or it may not. If you get one, definitely install it as close to the antenna as possible. The nice thing about getting a Ratshack model is you can take it back if it doesn't do you any good. But, the ratshack amps aren't as good as the wineguard or channel master amps. So, on that point, try it and see. All you'll be out is a little time.

Everyone who has signed up to speak will be allowed to speak. The commissioners may even go back to Monday's list to give anyone who signed up on it, but wasn't at Thursday's hearing, a chance to testify. It is even possible that they may put a new sign-up sheet out for January's hearing. Until they announce that "public testimony is closed", then it is still open. (it is kind of a "cover-your-a$$" move, because if someone is not allowed to testify, they can sue about the end result claiming that their testimony would have swayed them to vote the other way.)

-Wabisabi

P.S. The results of Tim Cutforth's reception study is available for the public to see, just by going to the planning department and asking to see the case file for Mt. Morrisson.

Thanks for the clarification Wabisabi.

The January meeting is at 9am; presumbly some people who signed up to testify in the evening will not be able to attend during the day. There were a lot of names of people who had signed up to testify on Monday that didn't even bother to show up on Thursday. On Thursday they got through at least some of the people who signed up that night, so they're catching up.

Mark & RCKYMTN,

I am Southwest, (near Chatfield) and find that I cannot get a consistent lock on 32 (KDVR-DT) with my Ratshack UHF yagi pointing at Republic Plaza.

Weather conditions play a big part on me being able to get a lock on 32.

I tried a second antenna with a splitter to get 32 and 38 (when they were testing) which worked except, then I lost 17.

A rotor would probably be my best bet, but I keep hoping 17 will move their antenna, which would solve my problem.

Things my get interesting this spring When KWGN comes on and if KRMA gets approval for Morrison.

It looks like a lot of trips up on the roof are in my future!

Phil - don't count on KMGH moving their antenna anytime soon. We can complain to them all we want about it but the sad fact is that they are technically within FCC compliance so they don't HAVE to do anything until the entire Lookout fiasco is resolved.

Did anyone else notice a problem with the widescreen feed on Fox for Giants/Colts game today. I was receiving the 4x3 portion of the broadcast perfectly, but when the widescreen portion was broadcast, I had a dark shadow over the entire picture.

Now back to the Broncos.........Not looking very good.

I didn't see any problems with the Fox WS broadcast today, except for a couple of minutes before the end of the 1st half KDVR was sending a stretched version of the 4:3 feed rather than the 16x9 feed. Other than that, it looked pretty good to me.

Thanks for the response.

Very odd problem. Only occurs when it is the 480p widescreen. Thanks again.

Doug

Doug - what kind of HD receiver do you have again? It may be a quirk with the 480p. My dish 6000 has its own quirks with the signal - I don't have all of the picture zoom and stretch functions with the Fox 480p signal that I have with a 1080i or 720p signal. Probably has something to do with the upconversion of the 480p to 1080i.

Mark,

I have a Panny stb. I am trying a reboot and now I will wait for a widescreen show to see if that is successful. I have had this problem in the past and the fix was a rescan.

Doug

KMGH does not plan to move the Channel 17 digital transmitter to Republic Plaza at this time. We are awaiting the outcome of hearings at Jefferson County before making any further decisions.

If I may be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

Rick Craddock
Director of Engineering
Denver's 7, KMGH - TV

I asked them to please, please move xmitter................................

Phil T,
I am in the same area as you are (Ken Caryl Ranch). I have a 100'' boom UHF antenna from Radio shack on my roof. I used to point it directly downtown but would not get a good signal from 32. I have recently pointed my antenna a little towards the west and now get a 78 on KDVR 32, and 68 from KMGH 17.
You might get the same results if you turn the antenna slightly. I also have a line of sight to Republic Plaza from my roof. Which is probably helping me receive 17.
Good Luck

jcardona,

Thanks for the reply.

I have a low signal (52-55) from 17. Dan (DP-1) spent about an hour last fall helping me get the signal. I get a 60-70 on 32 but it drops out a lot and is unwatchable a lot of the time.

I think my best bet is to live with what I have now (there is not that much programming I watch on FOX) and hope KMGH some day realizes how many HDTV viewers they are missing (like pookers) with their current studio antenna set up.

I just received the text from Greg Dobbs' testimony on Thursday night. I believe this text came straight from the teleprompter, so it very accurately represents what he said. Remember, he got through all of this in 3 minutes flat. This testimony, I thought, most clearly articulated the arguments for the Mt Morrison tower to be approved while still getting some sCARE digs in. My comments are in [] braces.

Here it is:
Thanks very much for hearing me this way [ed: on videotape, recorded at KRMA], since I was on the list but didn’t get to testify during the marathon session Monday night. I was sworn in, and promise to abide by the pledge.

What I’m tempted to do, after the stunt by the applicant’s opponents where they unfurled before you a sympathetic petition of thirteen-hundred unverified signatures, is show you a hundred times as many signatures from Jeffco, a thousand times as many, petitioning for a strong, clear broadcast signal, because for me, as a professional broadcaster and as a citizen of this county, and for the rest of your constituents, that’s the heart of the issue.

I work in the media. By way of qualifications I write columns, for years for the Denver Post, now for the Rocky Mountain News as well as Evergreen’s Canyon Courier. Back when this issue first came up I wrote about it in the Post and the Courier. I do talk radio, for years on KOA, now on KNRC, and I publicly discussed and debated this issue back in the late 90s. I used to work, for 23 years, for ABC News, then I produced stories for National Geographic Television and now, in the interest of full disclosure, I’m working with Rocky Mountain PBS, where in fact I’m taping this testimony, on a program that will go the air in a month and a half. So, I have a special interest in public broadcasting, a background on this issue, and after feeding TV news stories via microwave, transmitter and satellite from almost every American state and nearly half the countries on earth, I understand a thing or two about television.

As such, Lookout Mountain is still the single best place for a transmission tower. Signals from Lookout Mountain reach the most people in Jefferson County and all of metro Denver, with the most strength and clarity. What’s more, to those who said the other night that a tower on Mt. Morrison will ruin the “Gateway to the Rockies,” the towers on Lookout Mountain for 40 years haven’t turned people away. The opponent’s own homes, which collectively mar ridgelines and landscapes far more than the applicant’ proposal would, changed the gateway when they were built, but they didn’t destroy it. [preach it, brother!]

However, as you know, the Lookout Mountain lobby, hoping to get rid of these towers that devalue their views and their homes, has argued that they might cause cancer, despite authoritative and credible non-biased studies to the contrary that already have been done by the likes of the FCC and the Colorado Department of Health. Personally, if I were truly petrified that something near my home caused cancer, I wouldn’t spend years arguing about it; I’d just get out. [so would any rational person -- oh, wait, that eliminates sCARE]

But that’s where we are, and Rocky Mountain PBS and its transmission partners have yielded to those arguments, compromising instead, at additional cost, for the next best site to reach the most people with the best signal: Mt. Morrison. Not only will a tower there be further from human inhabitants, which will mitigate many potential problems you heard about Monday night, but reception from Mt. Morrison—which is based on distance and line-of-sight signals—won’t be quite as good as from Lookout Mountain, but it’ll be close. From further west on Squaw Peak, reception for whole portions of our population, even with boosters which put out diminished strength, will deteriorate.

Which leads to my other interest here: like many of your constituents I like to watch Channel 6, and I listen to public radio, which depend on the broadest public support. Cut the strength and exposure to the public, you cut that support.

Lookout Mountain is the best place, but Mt. Morrison is the best compromise. It’s not about benefit “for the applicant.” It’s about benefit for all of your constituents. Thank you.

Anybody notice that channel 29 is up? I watched at little, but not too much, seeing how it's home shopping network.

I just checked and I am getting nothing on 29. Does this come from the same place as 17?

Later
Joe

Is Gregg Dobbs a member here? Thanks dr_mal for posting his testimony. I didn't make it to Thursday's hearing either, but (regardless of what ya'll believe) will be there for the January 7th hearing.

re: KMGH I am so sick of their attitude that they are on the air and that they will not move to Republic, etc. I would like to volunteer to mount a protest outside their station, shortly before the Super Bowl.

As we know, they are located at Speer and Lincoln, probably one of the most traveled intersections in Denver. I propose that we 2-4-8-12 members petition the station on one or two highly trafficked mornings (IE. weekdays) directly before the Superbowl, scheduled to be broadcast on ABC.

At this point it seems like KMGH is not going to work with us at all, and I feel that it is time to take whatever actions we can, against them.

-John

The program Great Performances " The Merry Widow" will be fed in HD on Wed. 12/25 at 19:00 & 22:00.

The program Face: Jesus in Art will be fed in HD on 12/26 at 15:30 & 12/27 at 15:30.

The program Spirit of Colorado "A Dog's Life" will be fed in HD on Saturday, 12/28 at 19:30.

-John {Thanks KRMA!}

There will be a lot of people protesting if they get dropped off of AT&T cable!! :)

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E33%257E1068454,00.html?search=filter

By the way, KUSA-DT changed their blue bars to grey and added the call letters into the left bar.

I have a Panasonic TU-HDS20 STB and I subscribe to DirecTv. I am having trouble receiving a signal from KUSA-DT 16. I have run the auto scan for local channels and the network guide several times and I cannot get 9-1 to appear on the guide like it does for 4-1 and 7-1. I have also entered channel 16 manually through the channel add feature without any luck. I receive the signals for KCNC-DT 35 and KRMA-DT 18 just fine. I have also re-booted (unplugged) several times after running the auto scan and guide set-up features. It sounds like KUSA's signal is at least as strong as KCNC and KRMA from what I read here so I can't figure out why I can't receive it. Any suggestions from this informed group would greatly appreciated.
Merry Christmas to all and to all HDTV!

Hey Iwanhd

I don't know for sure if this helps but I know I have had times that I could get KRMA-18 (with a very strong signal) but not KCNC-35. I had to get in the attic and adjust the antenna to pick up the signal. I didn't have to do anything this time for KUSA's signal however. Seemed weird since they are both coming from the same location.

Oh and did I mention it get a big fat ZERO on channel 17, all the other come is now around 90.

I'm with John Jr. for a protest outside there studios, maybe one of the other stations would put us on the news or something :-) I thought it was pretty funny that they might be getting dropped from cable, so they mention that you can get there signal over the air for free, no mention of there digital signal that you can only get within 100yds of the studio.

Later
Joe

Originally posted by joej
Hey Iwanhd

I don't know for sure if this helps but I know I have had times that I could get KRMA-18 (with a very strong signal) but not KCNC-35. I had to get in the attic and adjust the antenna to pick up the signal. I didn't have to do anything this time for KUSA's signal however. Seemed weird since they are both coming from the same location. I get all 3 but at different signal levels which also seem to change by day and time of year (atmospheric conditions). I'm far enough away that I assume I am getting a "bent" or reflected signal. Antenna position is crucial the farther you are away. A few degress either way and I would totally lose one of them and not the others. Hope your antenna is accessible -- you'll be playing around with its pointing for a few years !

Originally posted by Phil T
There will be a lot of people protesting if they get dropped off of AT&T cable!! :)

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E33%257E1068454,00.html?search=filter

I saw this same piece of news in the Rocky Mountain News today. Neither story mentions what KMGH wants and AT&T/Comcast is not willing to provide. Is it too much to hope KMGH is holding out for retransmission of their HDTV channel also?

Michael

For those of you not on Pete's DL, below is his update email. As he states in the last paragraph, Squaw is the biggest contention to deal with. If you have a problem with PBS analog ch12 reception, pls seriously consider letting Jeffco know by email, letter, or hearing appearance.

From: Pete McNally [pete@grinnellgroup.com]
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 9:02 PM
Subject: LCG Update

Friends,

We meet with the County staff on Monday December 23, 2002. They are continuing to review comments received in response to our last submission. In fact, they are still awaiting a few comments from some internal departments. Depending upon the extent of those questions, they will determine whether or not we may proceed on February 5th. We should know by the end of the year if we are moving forward as planned as we will have received staffs formal comments (today’s meeting was merely a courtesy) Let’s keep our fingers crossed.

Based upon the comments they had received, they now feel comfortable with the location of the satellite dishes and the provisions for monitoring emission levels and interference. They are undecided on the aesthetics of the building as a whole, which is a step forward but I’m not certain they are convinced. They are increasingly of the opinion that the zoning limits at Squaw Mountain including limits that would preclude the LCG stations from moving there.

What concerns me is that they believe Squaw would be an adequate site technically. The feedback you all have provided me regarding the Squaw test is consistent with our engineering analysis: the site is okay in the plains where there is LOS but does not work adequately in shadowed areas along the foothills. If you experienced problems receiving the recent test signal from the Squaw site or the Ch 12 analog signal, I would encourage you to write to the County to let them know and express your support for our proposal. The contact at the County is Susan Woods, Planning Department, 100 Jefferson County Parkway, Ste 3550, Golden, CO 80419 or SWood@co.jefferson.co.us. If you choose to send a letter, please cc me at 225 42nd Street, Des Moines, IA 50312 or a forwarded copy of the email.

I will keep you posted and appreciate your support.

Happy Holidays,

Peter McNally, Principal
The Grinnell Group
www.grinnellgroup.com

Happy Holidays Everybody!
:D

Guys,

Watched a little of 16 tonight for the ER re-run and it looked much too bright for me. I know it is not HD as they are only passing thru the SD feed, maybe their grey bars are too light. I dont' find the bars distracting on 35, but they seem to be too bright on 16. Any thoughts?

Jeff

edit:

taken care of.

Thanks

Hi,
I am in Ft.Collins; I was wondering if there is somebody else in this area that is receiving HDTV signals from Denver or other locations that would be so kind to share his experience in terms of equipment (mainly antenna setup).
I am not sure which kind of antenna I should go for and also if I should have a professional install it.
My house is about 30+ feet high and I have complete clean visibility toward the south, south-est, south-west and north.

Thanks.

mik63@attbi.com

mknoebel,

I think that Listen Up carries Sony PJ's, but it has been a couple of years since I was in the market for one. Congratulations! If you can control the light, it is a fantastic experience.

Jeff

jeff - they do have sony pjs, but not this model.

Thanks!

Originally posted by mik63
Hi,
I am in Ft.Collins; I was wondering if there is somebody else in this area that is receiving HDTV signals from Denver or other locations that would be so kind to share his experience in terms of equipment (mainly antenna setup).You should be able to receive 32 (Fox from Denver) without much difficulty (I'm using a $2 RS bowtie), and we're optimistic about 30 (CBS from Cheyenne) which is supposed to go live around mid-January. Anything else will probably require a more reasonable antenna. Unfortunately, I don't have enough data to define "reasonable" yet -- try asking in the Northern Colorado DTV (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199726) thread.

Originally posted by mknoebel
A bit off topic, but...
My wife "bought" me a projector for Christmas (gave me the OK to get one). I am looking at the Sony HS10 projector. Anyone here know of a local dealer where I could pick one of these up? I tried SoundTrack - and they only have a couple of Sharp projectors.

I bought my Sony projector from Spectrum AV a couple of years ago. I don't know if they will have any in stock for you to view, but they sell lots of projectors to businesses and therefore get good prices from Sony. They also gave me great service.

Michael

Anybody notice a lot of dropouts on KRMA-DT-18 tonight during Spirit of Colorado?

I had video artifacting and audio dropouts but my signal was a 94 on a Dish 6000. KUSA-DT looked fine (but of course no HD).

OK. I have installed a Channelmaster 4228 in my attic with a PreAmp CM 7775. I can only get Channel 32 witha signal strength of 58%. I cannot get 17, 18, or 35. I live south on Quebec until it turns into Monarch. I do not want to put the antenna outside and I do not think my homeowners will let me!

Please let me know if you have any ideas now or wait till a higher powered signal comes my way. (And when would that be?)

Thanks.

What tuner are you using? With that antenna, attic placement or otherwise you should be able to get 18 and 35.. something doesnt seem right.

Btw, 16 is up and running now with "decent" (compared to 17) signal strength too..

Originally posted by kimbray
I do not think my homeowners will let me!


Don't sweat the HOA - see my sig....

Yes, I thought the same thing here in Castle Rock, but I had to apply for the antenna, and was approved. see the info. on the FCC site, they can't prevent you from doing it, nor can they prevent you installing DISHNETWORK, nor DIRECTV dishes.

I was testing with a Dish 6000 unit with the OTA module....
I do no think it is the tuner (see below)

I borrowed it from my neighbor two doors up and with the same tuner he can get 4 channels (16, 17, 18, 35) (interestingly he does not get 32 which I get from my attic.

I tried moving the antenna around and with/without amp. All to no avail.

I think I should be able to get at least four stations. If this is the case and I can get it to work I would spring for a Dish 6000 unit.

Any more thoughts to getting this working?

Thanks.

It seems funny to me how I hear "we will wait to see the outcome of the tower hearings". The most favorable scenario for us viewers FOR EVERYONE TO EVEN RECEIVE CHANNEL 17 is more than a year away.

The time is now, move that super-duper low xmitter off the two story building, and onto Republic Plaza.

"we were the first Denver Metro area channel to go digital"
What a joke, when only a select few can receive it.

I was LESS THAN 10 miles from Speer and Lincoln, and I got a BIG FAT ZERO on my Local Digital meter, and (applauding) KUSA can do it, they can.

and yet my digital meter sceamed at me on channels 18, and 35.

I am not there anymore, I am farther south now, BUT AT LEAST I CAN WATCH KUSA-DT with no breakups (more clapping)

Kudo's to KUSA..what an accomplishment. Cheers.
I CAN EVEN GET KDEN-DT !!! FROM LONGMONT !

ok, I am done now,

p.s. I am mad cause Cleveland won, and we are out of the playoffs. sniff...sniff..

Originally posted by kimbray
I borrowed it from my neighbor two doors up and with the same tuner he can get 4 channels (16, 17, 18, 35) (interestingly he does not get 32 which I get from my attic. Ditto what Dan said -- something doesn't seem right. You should get 16,18, and 35 if your neighbor gets 17 (17 is EXTREMELY low-power.), unless your in a significant hole compared to your neighbor two doors away. It must be the cable run or antenna pointing. You need two people with walkie-talkies; one watching the receiver signal meter and one positioning the antenna. And don't use 32 as the signal to tweak for -- use 16,18 or 35. Be prepared to take some time with it, it is low-power, but you should be able to get it. The fact that he doesn't get 32 and gets the others means he's pointed correctly. Perhaps you're pointed too far towards Mt Morrison and not enough towards dowtown.

[.. and by hole, I meant the topographical kind, not $**thole)

Greetings all.

I just found this forum/thread after e-mailing all the local Denver stations asking about their HDTV plans. UPN-20 replied with a bunch of interesting links, including a link to this thread. (Thanks UPN-20!)

I live in Aurora, near Chambers and Hampden. My HD setup is the RCA 38" direct-view set with the built-in DTV tuner and DirectTV receiver. I'm using a Radio Shack amplified 'mobile' antenna bolted to one of the supports for my solar hot water panels, about 3' above my roofline. It's pointing a little (~5 deg) north of due West.

I'm currently receiving DTV channels 16, 18, 32, & 35. They're all hitting in the 60-70 range on my power meter. The receiver does not even recognize ch 17 as a digital signal, so I must be way out of range.

Initial observation:
Shouldn't each local area have its own forum, not just a thread????

Anyone having intermittent audio on channel 18?

I have strong signal (~70) and solid picture, but no audio for long periods of time. The audio will drop out (or not be there when I tune to the station), and then be restored, sometimes in the middle of the current program, but mostly when the current program ends and a new one begins.

It's like someone kicked the audio jacks out, and then realized it and plugged them back in at the station. But it happens much too often for this to be true. :-)

Any ideas?

Originally posted by dbucciar
Anyone having intermittent audio on channel 18?

I have strong signal (~70) and solid picture, but no audio for long periods of time. The audio will drop out (or not be there when I tune to the station), and then be restored, sometimes in the middle of the current program, but mostly when the current program ends and a new one begins.

It's like someone kicked the audio jacks out, and then realized it and plugged them back in at the station. But it happens much too often for this to be true. :-)

Any ideas? I get the exact same behavior when I tune to KRMA. I thought it was just me since I'm in Elizabeth and the signal is about 38-40; just above my receivers threshold of 34 (BTW, I have the same F38310 as you). I haven't heard anyone else complain yet. Perhaps it's due to some combination of what KRMA is doing and DTC-100's. Anyone else seeing (er, hearing; er not hearing) the same thing?

I'll drop an email to KRMA.

Okay, last noob questions:

Is anyone planning on attending the February antenna construction/zoning meetings in Jeffco? Would it help to voice support for the Lake Cedar Group's plan there?

What can be done to get KMGH/17 to provide a better interim solution? e-mail campaign? Any idea if simply moving their broadcast antenna to the Republic Plaza location would actually get them the same coverage as the other stations, or is their transmitter just too low-power anyway?

I am also dissapointed in KMGH's reluctance to provide a better low power solution than their existing 'aluminum foil and coat hanger out a 3rd story window' is providing to a handful of people. Not to mention that most of us will be missing the Super Bowl in HD because of their lack of willingness to move to a more feasible solution such as Republic.

I think we should all boycott KMGH and some sort of campaign should be launched against them (writing the Station Manager, writing articles about their 'very weak' HDTV attempt, writing Rick Craddock (dir of engineering) expressing our dismay with them not moving to Republic like the rest has done to at least provide a stop gap solution.

These guys know good and well that LCG is at least 2-3 years (or more) out..so dragging their feet and waiting for that to happen is not a decent answer to those of us that have the capability to watch the signal today.

- Dustin

dbucciar,
I know you're fairly new to all this... but we've all tried over and over. In fact i just sent a letter to both the GM and the Chief Engineer AND the FCC complaint line, just last week. No response whatsoever.

Maybe a protest in front of the building with signs might draw some attention. At least maybe they might come outside and talk with us.

I attended the recent Mt. Morrison meetings in front of the board of county commissioners. Depending on the times of the meetings and my wife's plans to use the car, I may or may not be able to attend the LCG meetings in February.

Did UPN-20 mention why they don't have anything going yet? I believe they have the proper zoning for their tower on Mt. Morrison to put a digital transmitter up there. They could then move the transmitter to Lookout when LCG gets approved and dismantle their existing tower. But for the next couple of interim years, we could get whatever HD UPN is putting out.

I have posted a couple of times on this thread (some time ago) about my same problems with KRMA. I also have a F38310. Last July I had a long series of emails to KRMA about my problem. I even donated some money to them since they were leading the way with HD. They still don't have an acceptable answer or reason, but they are certainly aware of my problems.

First, it apparantly does not happen all HD receivers. I was not able to find if it happens on all DTC100s or just on F38310s. There were no responses on the AVS Forum (here) when I posted.

Second, it only happens on any national feeds (ie, the good stuff, not the demo loop or the local, often repeated KRMA series). I have found lately that if I wait up to five minutes, the sound usually locks on. However, sometimes, it still never seems to lock. You have to do a little planning ahead to watch a program.

My sound is fed out to a Pioneer receiver and I don't use the F38310 speakers. When this problem occurs, the sound cuts off and on about every half second through my Pioneer and the digital sync light on the front panel just flashes. If I were to use the sound out of the TV speakers, it justs makes popping sounds. I have found that after waiting (usually about two minutes), the sound stops the cutting in and out altogether for a while and shortly thereafter, I typically get a sound sync. Don't change the channel though or you will be starting all over.

I would suggest anyone having sound lock problems on KRMA DT-18 send an email to Carol_Jacobs-Carre@KRMA.pbs.org. She is the person that I communicated with regarding my problems. I also have several emails from her about the sound sync problems with the PBS National site.

You might also copy Debbie_Kerley@KRMA.pbs.org. She has me and several others on a distribution list and emails us about future HD programming. (KRMA does NOT have a HD schedule unfortunately.)

Unlike KMGH, the folks at KRMA really do care, but I am not sure the local people know what to do to fix the problem since it only occurs on national feeds.

Good luck. I too am anxious for this to be fixed. Hope this was informative.

Did anybody catch the KMGH-Comcast/ATT article in the Rocky today?

It talks about KMGH (and their parent McGraw-Hill) starting two new cable networks. A 24 hour 'local' news channel, and a 24 hour Spanish language channel. If you didn't know, the dispute was because KMGH wanted Comcast to give them analog channel space on their existing cable system, and Comcast said no. So, 7 was holding out on negotiations with Comcast on renewing their contract.

Now, it turns out that Comcast will give them access for their current ABC channel & the two new channels forthcoming. (Here's the interesting part) These two 'new' channels will only be available to ATT Digital subscribers. Hmmm, i bet we'll see these two new channels on DT17's sub channels too.

----------------

Anybody getting a signal from Digital KDEN? Where are they X-mitting from? And what's their affiliation? I heard it was either Home shopping or Religious... For some, isn't that the same anyway? ;)

Originally posted by santellavision
dbucciar,
I know you're fairly new to all this... but we've all tried over and over. In fact i just sent a letter to both the GM and the Chief Engineer AND the FCC complaint line, just last week. No response whatsoever.

Maybe a protest in front of the building with signs might draw some attention. At least maybe they might come outside and talk with us.

Wow!

I've finally had a chance to backtrack over the past posts. You guys are indeed 'all over' this topic, as well as the LCG zoning issues.

I'm still in catch-up mode, but it's obvious to me that there's a lot of good info and shared expertise contained in this forum/thread. Hopefully, once I'm up to speed, I'll be able to contribute rather than just ask silly questions.

Thanks for all of your patience and willingess to discuss/re-hash these issues.

As for a protest in front of the TV station, that's a little outside my 'comfort zone' :-) ... but I'd be willing to support it if all other options are exhausted.


.... BTW, Happy New Year to everyone!

-- Dom

Originally posted by dbucciar
As for a protest in front of the TV station, that's a little outside my 'comfort zone' :-) My comfort zone has been stretched over this past year and half on this thread -- I'd be willing to protest. But if it's during the SuperBowl, would anybody see us?

I have no doubt that we'll see the two new KMGH stations on the 17 sub channels - that's why they've been multicasting all along...to get us "used to" the multiple sub channels. Of course, if they throw one more in there, hopefully that won't force 17-1 down below the 12.7 Mb/s that it's currently at. Much lower bitrate than that, and pixellation is going to be unwatchable. They are currently sending 17-2 at 4.5 Mb/s, so assuming that there is 19.2 Mb/s available, if KMGH was to compress their two new channels down to 3.25 Mb/s then 17-1 won't have to be compressed any more than it already is...damn...that ain't going to happen...

Mark, are you getting 17-2 on a Dish 6000? I know Dan is, but I have never been able to get my 6000 to show it.

I get 17-1 with a 52-56 signal strength.

I thought it might be my 8VSB and called Dish a couple of months ago. They said if it was a problem with the 8VSB I wouldn't get any digital signals at all.

If others are getting 17-2 on a 6000, I want to call Dish again while I am still in warranty.

Thanks,

Phil

I thought I had responded to you back then, Phil. Sorry if I didn't - yes, I get 17-2 on my dish receiver. I honestly have no idea why you don't unless it's a faulty 8vsb module. I didn't have to do anything to get it either (other than the pointing of the antenna and all that) - did a channel scan and there it was along with 17-1.

Thanks Mark

I am going to give Dish tech support another call tomorrow!

Phil,
Can you drop me a PM on what happens too. When i hooked up my Dad's Dish 6000 he was able to receive 17.1, but no 17.2 either? Thanks!

Originally posted by santellavision

Anybody getting a signal from Digital KDEN? Where are they X-mitting from? And what's their affiliation? I heard it was either Home shopping or Religious... For some, isn't that the same anyway? ;)

I can get it from Fort Collins if I aim my antenna just right. I think the transmitter is in Longmont.

It seems like some sort of cruel joke that the second digital channel I can receive (other than KDVR Fox) is a home shopping channel. :rolleyes:

Mark

If anyone is watching ch 18-3 right now... (1811 MST) are you getting audio?

I'm gettting no audio right now, with signal strength of 70 and a fine picture. (The show is 'Visions of Greece')

My display is indicating 'dolby digital'... how does it know that if there's no audio???

Okay audio kicked back in at 1816... I changed the channel away from, and then back to 18-3...no audio again.

This is very strange. Audio was restored at 1821. Seems as if it's taking my tuner 5 minutes to lock onto the audio signal.

Can anyone make sense of this?

So when I initially tune to 18-3, I (sometimes) get no audio. Then, after 1-5 minutes, the audio returns.

So now I'm pretty sure that it's my TV/tuner that's having the problem, not the station, although it doesn't do this on any other channel.

I have the RCA F38310 HDTV, so if anyone comes across a setting or switch that I can flip, please let me know.

Also, anyone else notice that ch 9-1 (UHF 16) is providing schedule info in the data stream? Pretty cool!

FYI,

For those of you that attended the HDNet tour in October, I saw this thread posted over at DBSTalk.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206956&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

It looks like it is time to make some phone calls and e-mails to Dish!! :)

Dom:

Read my previous post on page 162. I went into some detail on this.

There is no switch to fix this. For some reason (they can't explain why), their national feed is done differently than everybody else and the DTC100 and RCA F38310 receivers can't lock onto the signal right away. As I suggested in my post, send an email complaining about the problem to KRMA. Maybe they will do something about it.

I'm in east Aurora (tower and hampden). Have 540P TV with VGA inputs (Sony KL-W9000 50" LCD RPTV) and thinking about getting an HDTV receiver for special events (Superbowl for one).

What do you recommend, I mean is it worth it in this area?