RandyL712,

Welcome to our thread! Wow, do you have some posts!!!!

Odds are you won't be able to receive KMGH DT17 (Superbowl is on KMGH) at your location. Unless you have a really high antenna mount location and a good long range UHF antenna. You should be able to get CBS, PBS, NBS & Faux in Digital (and KWGN in the next few months) from your location (You still might need a good antenna and location)

My feeling is... that a digital signal, be it either Standard Def or HD is much better than cable and DBS satellite. Over the air, there's very little compression artifacts, so you will be able to get a much cleaner picture over the other feeds.

Are the low power stations a little stronger or is my equipment flaky?

I'm getting KCNC-DT now at a stable 64 (not sure if I've ever had it this strong; typical is mid-high 40s)

I've also received KRMA-DT the last two evenings in the high 30s. I've got a DTC-100 receiver and the audio sounds like it's being run through a strobe light. Really stuttery. If I change channels and come back to it, about half the time the audio will be OK for a while before lapsing into strobe light mode again. I watched through the end of one program and when the next one started, the audio was OK. Both nights when I tried to watch, the picture looked great, but the audio did this. It was the demo loop both times.

Still no hint of 16 (or 16-1 or 9-1)

I've got a DT Newb question.
I heard that FAUX showed 14:9. I was assuming that standard TV was still 4:3, and the "Enhanced Widescreen" was 14:9. But I was watching Sienfeld reruns the other night, and it was 14:9; and the football game on the first was 16:9.
So are the "Enhanced Widescreen" shows (and sports) in 16:9, and everything else stretched to 14:9?

Still can't get anything but FAUX, so haven't been doing much watching DTV :(

Thanks, Greg

Faux Denver isn't doing the horrible 14:9 anymore. Anything that Faux corporate sends out in "Enhanced Digital Widescreen" is 16:9; everything else is 4:3. Granted, their 4:3 appears to be a bit wider than 4:3 on any other channels, but believe me, it's much better than it used to be.

Fox local send's out regular old 4x3 programming as 14x9. But thats a local decision. When it comes to the Network programming in Primetime they pass through the feeds as they originate. So if it's a 480p widescreen show like Firefly or John Doe it will be full 16x9. Or if it's a Network show thats 4x3 it will be shown as 4x3 with full size black bars.

In other words you'll see most everything as 14x9 ..... except during Fox Networks' Primetime which runs from 7-9pm and a couple of other shows like Fox News Sunday and select NFL games which will be 16x9.

dr-mal

So far, DennisMileHi, dbucciar, myself and yourself have experienced similar audio problems with KRMA only and we all use RCA receivers. I've posted a thread called "F38310 sound lock problem on some OTA DT" in the categories Local HDTV Reception and Display Devices > DirectView to see if this RCA issue exists paired with other DT stations in the country. I thought it was due to my signal being so low even though I get a perfect picture, but others have high signal and the same symptoms. The only variance in symtoms seems to be whether or not it is restricted to the national PBS feed or not. I need to keep closer track, myself.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Dom:

Read my previous post on page 162. I went into some detail on this.


Dennis,

I have no idea how I missed your post. :confused: You described the symptoms exactly, down to the 5 minute audio sync delay.

I guess it's good to know that the problem is consistent across our hardware... I'll stop blaming KRMA and blame their national feed instead.

Thanks!

Ack- no superbowl? That really puts a damper in my party planning... :(

Someone in Harrisburg PA has the same audio problem with the F38310 and their PBS affiliate and not on the demo loop! (post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=1703421#post1703421))

Ron:

After seeing your new thread on the sync problem, I posted basically the same question on the HomeTheaterSpot RCA forum. There are a lot of people there with experience with the F38310. I'll check it to see if anybody responds.

Have any of you sent an email to KRMA on this issue? If they get a few people asking, maybe somebody smarter than us can figure out what is different about PBS and other national networks.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi

Have any of you sent an email to KRMA on this issue? If they get a few people asking, maybe somebody smarter than us can figure out what is different about PBS and other national networks.

Dennis, I just sent an e-mail describing the problem to the two people at KRMA you listed in a previous post.

I was just cruising the KDVR website (because i don't have a life ;) ) and came across this actual quote from them in their HDTV section.To see our new digital signal, you'll have to tune to Channel 32. Don't go looking for a beautiful picture on that channel right now... It's a little out of context, but, it just made me laugh!

I did a search on this forum for pbs and lock and found a couple of hits with people saying they couldn't get an audio lock on PBS with DTC-100s. Here is one I found from Annapolis, MD in October with a note from a PBS engineer. My software is up to date, but maybe there is a problem that has not been totally fixed.

__________________________________

I spoke with an engineer yesterday at MPT and he told me several things.

1) They did put their full power transmission system on the Annapolis transmitter and have been testing at "almost full power". It wasn't clear to me whether this was temporary and they plan to scale back the power, or whether it will remain that way, but that explains why we're all getting the station now.

2) They are simply "passing thru" the PBS feed and at current don't have the capability to do anything with PSIP or channel mapping. So, the 80-3 and PBSDTV1 logo that we see are coming direct from PBS, not from the local station.

3) PBS has had reports of audio problems with various receivers including the RCA DTC-100. He emailed me a blurb from a PBS Chat service that I've attached below.

4) He was surprised of reports from reception in VA, but not surprised that the signal was not reaching Gaithersburg which he said is closer to their Frederick transmitter. That transmitter is about a year away from going live.

5) He expects to bring up the Owings Mills transmitter (channel 29) by the end of this year or the beginning of next year.

The engineer was not familiar with this forum, so I provided him the URL and hopefully he'll keep us posted on what's going on with them.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Do you have info on the brands/models of tuners/receivers/cable boxes these people are using? This type of information can

certainly be useful to other stations whose viewers may be experiencing the same difficulties.



Jim McDaniel

Director of Engineering

WFSU / WFSG



My information at this point:

Unity Motion boxes seem to work fine

RCA boxes apparently have had problems (DirecTV boxes too, which I think are Phillips)



Dan Entingh, our general do everything engineer, suggests that people try rebooting the boxes. Apparently there is some drift in the systems audio/video sync over time, and a reboot (as is not unusual with computers) often solves the problem.



On the subject of the RCA boxes, if they do not have either the current (A05.10) or immediately previous (A04.70) software revs, the boxes have some serious audio bugs in the software (amongst other bugs). I have encountered audio drift (audio vs. video timing), difficulty in decoding audio at 192 kbps or below from Harris Flexicoders (and only from Flexicoders...go figure), and "chopping" in the audio (like someone rapidly turning the audio off and on) that clears up over the time. There are also other bugs, like the box spontaneously rebooting if you switch between Antenna A and B quickly over the course of about 15 minutes (as in comparing signal A and B by switching back and forth) resulting in the complete loss of all settings.



To check what software rev. the RCA box is operating on, press MENU (or the "OK" button): 7)ASSISTANCE: 7) UPDATES: 2) PREVIOUS UPDATES and you can find the current rev. For menu choices with a number, you may press that number on the keypad to go directly to it instead of using the arrows to move the menu choices.



If you encounter these problems, you can upgrade the software by hooking up the box to a valid DirecTV signal over a weekend. They still download updates to the boxes over weekends, even to boxes that are not authorized for DirecTV service. If your audeience members are complaining about your audio and they don't have the current software rev for the box you might offer to update the software rev of the box by hooking it up to a DirecTV signal for those viewers who don't have them. You will need to make it clear that you are simply doing this as a courtesy for them, not actually in a relationship with DirecTV.



James Snyder

PBS DTV Strategic Services Group

Kudos and thanks to KDVR Faux for passing along to us the FAUX widescreen of the Niners/Giants game yesterday, at least they passed it along till the final two minutes (6:00 PM), when they switched the screen back to 4:3 for the last two minutes of the game. I didn't see any complaints on the programming page yet, so I assume this was a local switch that was pulled. Bad enough the best we can get is FAUX widescreen instead of HD, but then they even pull the switch on that during the game.

This is only my speculation, but I think I know why KUSA isn't passing HD from NBC. I believe they are hoping their logo KUSA-DT Denver on the left of the screen will burn itself into our screens so when they switch over to pass HD, we will still be able to see we are watching KUSA......no matter what channel we turn on. Why do they have to put that annoying logo on the screen? Are they just trying to make sure no one will watch the digital feed, so they can tell the FCC "We told you it was a waste of our money (and we should know since we are Denver's leading station)". Don't they spend enough of their regular programming time telling us how great they are? Now they want to 'burn it in to our screens'. I am surprised they don't have "We're No. 1! on the other side of the screen. Oh, yes, did I mention "KUSA is Denver's 'leading' station"?

Oh, finally, I still do not show any signal on the KMGH DT channel. Anyone else outside the parking lot area? Yes, that KMGH, the 'first station on the air in DT in Denver'.

Enough of my Monday morning rant, now back to the real world.

Even thought I've been getting KRMA-DT lately, I still can't get a sniff of that KUSA-DT logo. Oh well, no HD, no harm.

Is anyone else planning on going to the (hopefully final) BCC hearing on the Mt. Morrison proposal tomorrow? Showtime is 9:00 am at the Taj ... hope it doesn't go too long they might notice me gone at work :)

I brought home a Radio Shack Double Bow Tie, made the "mod", and hooked it up. I can now get 35. I can get 18 if I work at it, but get dropouts. 16 and 29 blip occasionally, but I can't get a lock at all.

But a definate step forward. The YAGI in my attic was giving me zilch on everything except 32. At least now I'll be able to watch the AFC playoffs in HD! This little antenna really does do a good job. And it cost all of $1.97 at Radio Shack (well, that and a drive to Ft. Collins where I could find one, since they have been discontinued).

Now I need to see if I can tweak it to get 16 and 18.


I updated my coverage data in the data thread.

Here's wishing the Mt. Morrison Replacement proposal team "Good Luck".

Greg

I called and yelled at KMGH during the New Years Day Bowl games for their constant "bug" (In more than one sense of the word!!!) in the lower right of the screen. They actually had two bugs on the screen at all times. The lower right bug and the score area bug. Lo-Def and Buggy = KMGH.

BTW, the girl that answered the phones only response was "Everybody does it." Funny how yesterdays CBS game only had the one bug on the screen (In the score area) and not two, like KMGH had/s. Same with Faux. (one bug, not two)

-John

Sent a message to Don Perez this morning asking about an update on their timetable for passing the NBC HD content. He replied back pretty quickly - equipment has been ordered, some of it has arrived and they are still waiting on the rest of it. "Still may take a couple of months to get operational." For what it's worth...

And, trying to follow a new year's resolution to be more positive and optimistic about things, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the Mt. Morrison app is going to get approved tomorrow! :D Good luck anyways to the team!

KUSA Thoughts...

The KUSA logo on the side of the bars annoys me! I tuned in DT16, the other day and i just couldn't get myself to stop looking at that stupid logo on the side. Even my fiancee (I just got engaged over the holidays) said what's that, that's ugly, I'm not gonna' watch them, while that have that up there. I agree. Plus, after getting used to KCNC's nice dark gray bars, these just scream out "Look at Me!". So, we just changed channels and watched something else.

So no way to get HD Superbowl in Aurora?

So no way to get HD Superbowl in AuroraRandy,
There's no guaranties. KMGH's signal is so low, that it really depends on your equipment, antenna location, and obstacles (Blgds, hills, etc) between you and downtown.

Did you check out the Denver reception map link to see if anyone else is having luck near you with getting KMGH? See below.

Denver DTV Reception Map (http://bricklin.org/AVSForum/DenverTV.htm)

You can always get ExpressVu from Canada for your HDTV.

Hi guys,

Regarding a Picket of KMGH Channel 7 DT-17 ABC.

As I stated earlier I am sick and tired of KMGH's refusal to accomodate our request to move their DTV transmitter to Republic Plaza during the Lookout Mountain transition period. I believe that it is time that we take an aggressive, attacking, approach to dealing with management at KMGH.

As far as I know, ABC Corporate is the second largest OTA supplier of HDTV with shows such as NYPD Blue, The Drew Carey Show, Alias, The Practice, etc., being broadcast weekly in 720p HDTV and DD 5.1. ABC also will be broadcasting sporting events in 2003, including the Super Bowl, games of the National Basketball Association finals and the Stanley Cup. In addition ABC announced that it will broadcast the 2003 season of Monday Night Football in HDTV.

These shows are not available to a significant portion of us in the Denver Metro Area, and it's not like we can turn the channel to another provider and see them. KMGH has a monopoly on these shows. Their refusal to relocate their transmitter to Republic Plaza has the net effect of denying us our "right" to see these shows in HDTV.

I would propose that we picket KMGH's studio located downtown at Speer and Lincoln on January 23rd and 24th, the Thursday and Friday before the Superbowl on January 26th, to draw attention from passers by to the problems at KMGH. I would hope that we could get a minimum of 2-3 people in two shifts, one during the AM Rush Hour (sunrise to 9am or so) and one during the PM Rush Hour say 4pm to 6pm.

I would also hope that we could get out letters to all of the other media outlets in town prior to the actual picket dates stating our position and why we feel it necessary to take this action against KMGH. It is possible that we can get additional coverage from some of these other outlets.

We should also contact KMGH and ABC corporate and let them know of our intended actions.

If you feel that this is an appropriate action to take and would like to participate, please PM me with when you would be available. If this looks to be a GO then I will do some additional groundwork like figuring out where and when we should park and meet, etc.

-John

Originally posted by JMartinko
Kudos and thanks to KDVR Faux for passing along to us the FAUX widescreen of the Niners/Giants game yesterday, at least they passed it along till the final two minutes (6:00 PM), when they switched the screen back to 4:3 for the last two minutes of the game. I didn't

Yeah, I noticed this too. Came back from commercial and it was in 4:3. My wife said '...why are there bars on the side?'. I said 'um, someone made a mistake at the station or at the network maybe' and then it popped back to widescreen. The 4:3 blip lasted for maybe 15 seconds/1 play.

The rest of the game was fine.

Originally posted by santellavision
KUSA Thoughts...

The KUSA logo on the side of the bars annoys me! I tuned in DT16, the other day and i just couldn't get myself to stop looking at that stupid logo on the side. Even my fiancee (I just got engaged over

I *like* the station logo in the grey bars.. I wish all the networks/stations would do that instead of overlaying their logos on top of the picture.

To me, the grey bars are just 'dead space'.... let's use 'em for something and clean-up the picture area.

Just my personal preference....

:p

Oh, and congrats on the engagement!

Originally posted by RandyL712
So no way to get HD Superbowl in Aurora?

I'm going to pick up one of those RadioShack UHF Yagi antennae and see if I can do anything to pick up the current KMGH signal from Aurora.

I'm also going to e-mail KMGH and ask nicely if there's anything at all they can do to improve their signal for the Superbowl.

I'll also send an e-mail to Disney (er, I mean ABC) to see if they can exert any pressure on KMGH to improve their signal.

If all this fails (as it probably will), I'll be on the corner with John.

Ernie
A hearty congratulations on your engagement. I trust she too is an HD fan.
:)

JohnJr
I think an attempt to get some media coverage is a good idea. KCNC might cover it (since they have made the effort to bring HD to some of us), but I doubt KUSA or KMGH will want to call attention to their own inadequacies. We know the folks at KCNC do read the forum, so maybe someone could pass the info on to their newsroom for consideration (hint, hint). I think the newspapers and radio would be a better bet for coverage. How do others here feel about the concept??? Some letters to the editors of the newspapers might be a good start too, maybe even advertising the 'protest'. Not sure I am available those days (very busy at work), and I already have alternatives for ABC HD, but I hope some folks here do have the time to contribute.

dbucciar
Although I do find the KUSA log annoying (personal preference I guess, I don't like any logos on my screen while I watch) people with RPTV's and tube screens also run the risk of having that logo permanently burned in their screens if they leave the sets on KUSA for long periods of time. The problem is reduced since the logo is not pronounced with heavy black letters or such, but is still an issue. I have not observed closely, but considerate stations would at least move the logo around so that burn in is less of an issue. I have not observed closely to see if they move the logo, but from the history of KUSA on DT, I wouldn't expect them to do us any favors.

Originally posted by dbucciar
To me, the grey bars are just 'dead space'.... let's use 'em for something and clean-up the picture area.
Hmmmm. How long before we have continuous (silent) running ads in the side bars? I've been thinking that this might happen anyways with the growing popularity of PVR's that can Fast Forward through commercials.

OTOH, maybe we'll get widescreen digital TV sooner when the broadcasters realize that it gives them additional "billboard" space alongside their 4:3 programming. ;)

Originally posted by dbucciar
If all this fails (as it probably will), I'll be on the corner with John.

Dom,

Great! Just PM me with your schedule. ;)

JM,

I agree that the newspaper and radio are probably the way we would get any additional coverage. I'm particularly hoping for some coverage from Mike Rosen as he covered the Tower situation a bit last year (or was it the year before that.)

I'm also hoping that KMGH ears prick up at this announcement. I really think they will not be happy with picketers outside the station (at Speer and Lincoln... very highly trafficed during rush hour) on the Thursday and Friday before the Superbowl. I for one plan to be very immflamatory with my sign. Things I have thought of are...

No Superbowl on KMGH DT-17?! Honk! (hoping folks think it's regular 7 and don't realize it's 17)

Bought an HDTV recently? ABC doesn't care! Lo-Def only!

Home theater? KMGH wants to go back to broadcasting Black and White!

Hopefully I will think of better ones before the 23rd and 24th... but you get the gist. ;)

-John

I *like* the station logo in the grey bars.. I wish all the networks/stations would do that instead of overlaying their logos on top of the picture.
All the logos on screen (during normal programming) come from the networks and the local stations don't have a choice and can't remove them. It's just with KUSA, now you get two ugly logos, the KUSA-TV on the side and the 'NBC' in the lower third.
OTOH, maybe we'll get widescreen digital TV sooner when the broadcasters realize that it gives them additional "billboard" space alongside their 4:3 programming.Ahhhhhhh... don't give 'em any ideas! ;)

Originally posted by JMartinko

dbucciar
Although I do find the KUSA log annoying (personal preference I guess, I don't like any logos on my screen while I watch) people with RPTV's and tube screens also run the risk of having that logo permanently burned in their screens if they leave the sets on KUSA for long periods of time. The problem is reduced since the logo is not pronounced with heavy black letters or such, but is still an issue. I have not observed closely, but considerate stations would at least move the logo around so that burn in is less of an issue. I have not observed closely to see if they move the logo, but from the history of KUSA on DT, I wouldn't expect them to do us any favors.

Good point... I'm watching on a direct-view TV and I don't know what the contrast threshold is for risking burn-in. Moving the logo around would certainly be the answer; ...not watching KUSA-DT 24x7 would also do it. :D

I thought the newer CRTs were less susceptible to burn-in than before... or am I deluding myself?

It looks like no bar or logo tonight on KUSA-DT. Currently off the air.

Originally posted by Phil T
It looks like no bar or logo tonight on KUSA-DT. Currently off the air.

Hey maybe they're installing their new HD equipment! :rolleyes:

KUSA still off the air this morning. Hope they didn't have a flange fail... :D

They had promised to be on the air by the end of the year, they didn't say they planned to stay on the air.

It may be that now that they can tell the FCC they televised in a digital format their job is done for another couple of years. We all know how hard it must be to keep those flanges working, and for gosh sakes, how could they have been expected to realize they might need to have some HD transmission and taping equipment available when they came on the air in DTV. You guys make it sound as if they are a 'professional' broadcasting station. Let's face it, the only thing KUSA REALLY does well (and is indeed "Colorado's Leader') is self promotion. Oh, btw, did I mention that KUSA is ..............

The Denver Post has published an editorial in favor of approving Alternative B of the Mt. Morrison proposal. It points out some of the facts that we have been discussing for years and also does not shed a favorable light on CARE. Check it out on page 6B of todays Post.

Just finished reading it myself. For those who don't get the Post, you can read it at:
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E417%257E1092954%257E,00.html

Sweet! If no one else caught it, I'll print out a copy to bring to today's hearing.

I'll momentarily break my silence and say it's about time the media chirps in on this matter. Kudos to the Denver Post for recognizing this situation for what it is...I think they're paying attention. I have no clue about the outcome (or even if the BCC will vote today) but I think the editoral hits the nail on the head about an eventual lawsuit and/or federal intervention. This circle jerk will continue only so long before outside intervention steps in and mandates a solution.

Originally posted by santellavision
Randy,
There's no guaranties. KMGH's signal is so low, that it really depends on your equipment, antenna location, and obstacles (Blgds, hills, etc) between you and downtown.

Did you check out the Denver reception map link to see if anyone else is having luck near you with getting KMGH? See below.

Denver DTV Reception Map (http://bricklin.org/AVSForum/DenverTV.htm)

You can always get ExpressVu from Canada for your HDTV. Thanks for the link - I'm very new to this (looking for cheap HDTV receiver now, already have huge OTA antenna from previous owner's sat setup)... The map isn't very promising :( ... where do I find info about ExpressVu? Cost?

Also - what's the cheapest HDTV OTA receiver to get? Does DTC-1000 work for this? (Want VGA connection to my TV)

Randy
A good place to start in terms of alternatives like Express Vu is at this site
http://www.global-cm.net/

Scroll down to the 'Canadian Solution' and follow the leads. There is a lot of information on the pros and cons of this method. Remember, as you enter this area, there are NO guarantees that these services will always be available to you. Various legal issues are involved, and so far, I suppose it is safe to say the number of American viewers is small enough and the publicity small enough that the issues have not been challenged here in the states. As you need information, maintain a low profile in forums such as this. If you still want more information PM me and I can send you to some forums devoted to Canadian services and providers where you can get insight into how others do this without making waves.

Boy was I surprised to see the editorial page this morning over my breakfast. Talk about finally getting some visibility. BTW, I agree with Geof, it is obvious the Post editorial has more or less hit the nail on the head. It does make me wonder what took them so long. Maybe they are reading the forum these days.
:cool:

Hey guys -- the public testimony for Mt. Morrison is now over!

We're on lunch break; at 1:00 BCDC will have the chance to rebut all the lies and crap spewed by tower opponents, and then, presumably, the commissioners vote.

I'm pleased as punch (and just a little punch-happy) that the public testimony is finally over. I didn't really expect it to be done by noon.

I'll post later this afternoon...

Randy,

If you need a VGA input, the DTC100 will work for you. I have used it for four years now with no problems with it whatsoever. See if you can find one left at the Best Buy's and Circuit City's. They were on closeout for a while. They might still have one around.

Jeff

Called around, no luck :( Anyone selling?!

Randy,

You might also consider getting a Satellite receiver with Digital over-the-air capabilities. Like the Dish Network 6000 which has RGB outputs or the Directv Receiver. This way you can get the local over-the-air digital channels and some satellite high-def channels too, like; HBO, Showtime, Discovery Channel, Pay-per-View or HD-Net programming.

I dont know that the 6000 would be a good choice in his case. If his display is only capable of 480p or even 540p, the 6000 doesnt output either of those resolutions. He'd have to just go with HD downconverted to 480i and output over s-video. Albeit that would still look better than any other way he currently has to view the content.

The DTC-100 would still seem to be the best bet since it puts out the freaky 540p over VGA I believe. Those can be had off ebay. Or one of the other STB's that has the proper connector as well as a 480p setting.

But the thing is, Randy, when you've asked this question in the past you were looking to get into something for like 150.00 but thats still not doable..so is that a deal breaker in and of itself? Cause I doubt you'll find much of anything yet under 300.00 since theres no reason for anybody to sell a used one that cheap and also because our local BB's and CC's have never been known to offer those 249.99 open box deals that you read about on like DTC-100's that others have found from them around the country.

Prolly because our OTA offerings have always been so dismal comapred to other major markets that the stores never sold alot of them to begin with that stood to be returned for whatever reasons. Or just because the store managers act differently. Because the few times I've seen open box DTC-100's in the past they still wanted like 450.00 for them.

Good Point Dan. I forgot it was 540p.

Hey guys,

Mt. Morrison BCC continued the hearing for four weeks. They'll reconvene Feb. 4. Ugh.

More thoughts possibly in the morning.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Hey guys,

Mt. Morrison BCC continued the hearing for four weeks. They'll reconvene Feb. 4. Ugh.

More thoughts possibly in the morning. I guess I am not surprised....thanks for the update....one last hey - KMGH thinks their LCG2 app will be approved this spring - that's one (major) reason why they "don't need no stinkin move" to Republic Plaza. I suggest that any correspondence with them should highlight the idiocy of that timeframe (I'd almost be willing to bet LCG won't be voted on until late this year). Given that the KRMA Morrison application is now bordering on almost 1.5 years I think KMGH is smoking some good weed.....I will shutup now....

[i]Because the few times I've seen open box DTC-100's in the past they still wanted like 450.00 for them. [/B]Rat Shack in Parker had a floor model DTC-100 for $350 when I was in there a couple of months ago. They didn't even have it out -- it was in a box behind the counter. I don't know if anybody ever bought it.
303-840-7639

Originally posted by dr_mal
Hey guys, Mt. Morrison BCC continued the hearing for four weeks. They'll reconvene Feb. 4. Ugh.


I wonder if the commissioners will delay the Morrison vote until they have a chance to hear testimony on the LCG application since KRMA is involved in both???? Just my own speculation, not based on anything I have heard or seen written. If they approved Morrison, and then saw something they liked better about the LCG application it would not give them any way to recover face.

On another tangent thought, if the Post wrote that big an editorial on the Morrison application, I wonder how much they will do when the LCG application is up. I am guessing they will fall on our side on that one too, given the comments from this morning.

It didn't seem like a delay for LCG reasons...

my impression was that the lack of accountability by the stations has hurt them here. The things they wanted clarification for before they vote are things like:

* how can we be sure the Channel 6 tower on Lookout will come down? What legal remedies would we have if they don't take it down?
* same for the Channel 59 tower on Morrison.
* What legal remedies do we have if the measured RF is too high?
* What legal remedies do we have if they put up omnidirectional instead of directional antennas?

Commissioner Lawrence (1) finally (I was going nuts trying to "read" her) stated her opinions and I was quite surprised and happy. She said things like "this is a very creative and innovative approach" and "we keep asking you to consolidate, but we haven't given you the opportunity". I'm thinking she's leaning towards YES, but wants to make sure she doesn't get burned.

Commissioner Sheehan (3) had positive things to say about the proposal when all was said and done -- he just wants to make sure the taxpayers don't end up paying for removal of the old towers. I'm pretty sure he's a YES (of course, he says he hasn't made up his mind yet).

Commissioner Holloway (2) still doesn't get it (IMHO). I'm pretty sure she's a NO. Her final comment of the evening was that she needed some more answers to get more into her comfort zone. I'm reading that as "I'm sure as heck gonna deny this application, but I'd really like to have something to base that on". My opinion only.

I had some interesting conversations with some people there. Perhaps the most interesting was with Al Hislop. I asked him why he didn't post anymore and told him I thought that he provided value here in helping us to see outside our "I want my HDTV NOW!!!" box. His concern was that there was too much name-calling going on, seemed bothered that we call his group sCARE instead of CARE. I implored him to come on back and help with the healthy debate that was going on way back when. He did say that he still reads this thread. In fact, during the Channel 38 DTV tests, he was monitoring our status and checking signal strength himself close to locations where we said we couldn't get signal. He said with his spectro-thingy (sorry - can't remember the actual name), it's quite simple for him to see what's going on with signal and orient an antenna properly. I asked him if he did house calls :D

I need to go watch 24 now -- I'll post more later (or in the AM)

-David

With that editor b*tch from the City & Mountain Views calling me obsence names on the phone (After she telephoned me for an "interview") The name calling is definitely not one-sided!He said with his spectro-thingy (sorry - can't remember the actual name), it's quite simple for him to see what's going on with signal and orient an antenna properly.I think Al just proved our point why Squaw is not acceptable. Al... Sounds like you figured out just how sensitive it is to 'dial-in' a DTV signal. 'Ya had to do some finagling to get a signal too huh? So, how do you just "orient an antenna" when you propose Squaw as an alterntative? Not everybody is going to have an antenna and rotator that they can "orient" one minute toward Squaw, then back toward Lookout, back to downtown etc.

Also, it sounds like Lookout is NOT going away soon, and especially after the comment from Commis. #1 about consolidation, sounds like a nice start toward the approval of LCII.

It is frustrating to hear of another delay on Morrison, but if dr_mal's observations are accurate, you wouldn't think it would be too difficult to get the clarifications/reassurances that are being asked for. Unfortunately, yet another month gets consumed by this process.

Originally posted by dr_mal
I need to go watch 24 now -- I'll post more later (or in the AM)

-David

Does anyone else still perceive a slight lip-sync problem on Fox? I only see it with Fox material, like 24. The local newscast looked & sounded fine, sync-wise. On 24, the audio seemed very slightly early to me, at least at times. I noticed it also when watching a movie on KDVR last week.

I also still find myself turning down the brightness/black level for KDVR-DT to get the blacks black and avoid a washed-out look.

Mark

Mark,

Yeah, I notice lip-sync problems on all fox shows. It's real bad with football, too, but that's only noticeable when they show the announcers or refs. But I notice it on most things they show. I wonder if it is a national problem, or just the local guys??

While I still believe that CARE employs scare tactics instead of logical arguments (at least in this one case; I haven't been involved in any others), I will refrain from calling them sCARE anymore (oops, except right there). I think it's best if we try to get a clear and open dialogue here. Al's not an idiot but I don't always agree with his conclusions.

One final olive branch: while I'm not happy that KRMA-DT is not up at full power yet, I'm actually kind of happy that Mt. Morrison I was denied. I think that Alternative B (if approved) is a much better way to consolidate some towers. It looks much better (in new computer models unveiled yesterday, it was invisible to the naked eye at normal viewing distances) than the original taller tower proposal.

OK, here are my abbreviated comments about last night (I missed enough work time yesterday -- gotta get some done today!):

The meeting didn't start until 9:21; they did other business until 9:35. The gentleman who got his zoning approved at 9:34 was very grateful that they bumped him to the beginning of the day :)

Then it was time for Mt. Morrison. (3) stated that he was up late last night in anticipation (if it wasn't for some of (3)'s comments, the hearing would likely bore me to tears. Thanks for the chuckles, (3)). (2) stated she had dreamed about public testimony all night. (1) stated that since they had all dreamed/thought about/mentally heard all the public testimony last night, we could all go home. I wish.

Short story: 13 YES witnesses, 18 NO witnesses. My perception was that CARE noticed they were outnumbered when true public testimony started, so they put the call out to get as many people as possible to this hearing. This hearing, during business hours, was much less full than the previous hearings.

YES arguments:
CARE has exerted pressure on locals to show up and protest the towers.
Homes and cars mar the gateway to the rockies more than a couple of towers.
HOA's don't speak for us, they speak for the board members of the HOAs! (based on some info on CARE's site, I have to wonder if CARE doesn't create HOAs for orphan homeowners, then sit on the board and use their 10 minutes to lengthen CARE's testimony time at hearings)
A 2 for 1 tower swap should INCREASE our property values.
This is the "most logical proposal that makes sense"
Channel 23 and 59 have good clean alternate programming.
Cell phones emit more radiation than the towers (in fairness, I didn't see and CARE members with cell phones at any of the hearings)
Re: the argument that the towers cause interference driving high tech industries away -- why do we want to attract big industries to the mountains anyway? Wouldn't big office complexes mar the gateway to the rockies?
Denver HAS to transition to DTV; we're the last market (except NYC, who lost their xmitters in the WTC collapse) to go DTV, and the only market who hasn't transitioned solely because of political reasons.
"Chronic NIMBY elitists"

NO arguments:
Same old, same old.
This is a tower farm, not a tower.
Can't trust BCDC (actually, at this comment, the County Attorney, fed up with the attacks on BCDC, told witness: "this is a land use hearing, not a forum for attacking the owner of the land. This land use would be for ANY owner of the land, not just for the current owner")
I'm a 5 (6, 7) year resident (too bad you didn't see the towers when you moved in, moron [I'm trying to not call names, really, I am])
The county commissioners are great! We love you!
There shouldn't be any towers anywhere!
Other cities do DTV without the mountains, why can't we? (um, because the stations need to match the coverage provided by analog stations on Lookout which is 1700' higher than downtown, so unless you want to see a 1700' tower on top of Republic Plaza, with guy wires in Coors Field to support it, the JeffCo mountains are the place [OK, most of that was stolen from BCDC's rebuttal/summary, but it fits here])
Camoflauging the tower is not the solution (fine, paint it red and white and put strobes on it then)
Towers kill birds.
Sister "B" must not have been aware that the Mother Cabrini Shrine would get more radiation from Morrison compared to Lookout (Sister "B"'s comments are later in my post)
KRMA should practice what they preach (showed a commercial from the Nature Conservancy -- kind of a NIMBY call to arms with people in beautiful backdrops holding signs saying "Not here" -- apparently this commercial airs on KRMA)
This is an addition of towers
Tower farm
Take the towers down, or we (and our tax base) will leave! (fine by me, maybe then I could afford a nice mountain home close to my office at I-70 and Denver West Parkway instead of having to drive in from the only affordable place in the metro area, Adams County)
Tower farm.
avsforum squaw reception survey was flawed (apparently Al's not the only tower opponent reading here -- he clearly read at least the Reception thread based on comments about us he made)
People don't need towers anyway, doesn't everyone have cable or satellite?
Tower farm
(from a seed expert): reclamation with native seeding on steep terrain is hard to do and not very successful.
(from a PE, Timothy C Cutforth): we had to use a filter because we had a few different receivers and stuff, so we had the signal running through splitters so that's why we needed the filter. We wouldn't have needed it with only one receiver hooked up (well, gee, Timothy C., most houses I've seen have at least one splitter in the chain somewhere, testing without splitters wouldn't seem to me to be very real-world) In fairness, either he or Al (when I talked to him later) stated that one receiver had a direct feed, no bypass filter or anything, and was still able to get signal.

Notable speakers:

Gene Vandesende, operator of channel 23. He says Squaw would be a disastrous move for the station. (2) asked him if moving to Squaw would black out their TV signal. His answer: basically just in JeffCo :) (2) said "so we can't get channel 12 here then? I watch channel 12." Yes, but that's because channel 12 broadcasts at much higher power than channel 23 can afford. [also, I understand channel 12 broadcasts from a different location, higher up on Squaw Mtn. than the proposed Squaw telecommunications site] (3) asked if repeaters could be used to fill in the holes. Gene says repeaters can't be used for low-power stations.

Anna DeJesus Davis owns several restaurants in Morrison. She stated that her property value has roughly doubled in the last 5 years. This, even with the towers in her backyard. She said she's never had any tourists in her restaurants complain about the towers marring the "gateway to the Rockies".

Galen Knickel started his presentation with an Ansel Adams photo of Yosemite (you know, those black & white national park photos? They're very nice photos) with a red and white painted tower at the top of Halfdome. What would Ansel Adams think of this new tower? (You mean the one that's NOT in Yosemite, that WOULDN'T be painted red and white, and that WOULDN'T be in a national park, and that WOULD replace two uglier towers? I think he'd be happy). He claimed that Mt. Morrison is the most visible mountain in Jefferson County. He said that we learned how to hide the necessities out back even in the pioneer days -- we wouldn't put an outhouse in the front of our property nowadays, would we? Finally, the reason he makes the "notable speakers" full commentary: he then put a strobe light on top of the speaking podium (the light fell when he was trying to plug it in -- an omen?), pointed it at the commissioners, turned it on, and started to walk away. He asked "Can I leave this up?" to which (1) stated, very emphatically, "NO!". He then "tried" to turn it off, mumbled something about the switch being broken, and then (1) stated "SOMEbody's switch is broken". Not sure if she meant that to come through the speakers or not, but I heard it :) As he took it away, he said that that's what we'd be putting up (uh, no. There's no strobe light on Alternative B). (1) asked him to put it as far back as she would normally be viewing it on the top of a tower.

Bill Pearse, founder and chairman of SoundTrack (via videotape)(where was this guy when we needed him for petitions?) He's lived in JeffCo for 35 years. He explained how much money has been spent at his JeffCo stores for DTV (sales tax revenue, local residents looking for DTV). (2) was obviously disgusted, shaking her head disapprovingly and at one point throwing her hands up in the air. (1) said something like "this was an unpaid endorsement by..." I was glad to finally see a retail store take notice of the tower situation, but his testimony didn't go over really well. He concluded by saying "if any of you have any questions, you can call me right now at the following number" I noted the number -- should we ask him if we can put information pamphlets about the Denver DTV situation (factual, without any of our bias) in SoundTracks?

Sister Bernadette (administrator of Mother Cabrini Shrine) via videotape had a brief testimony stating that visitors to Mother Cabrini Shrine don't complain about the TV towers, but that they do enjoy Channel 23. She supports Alternative B. (this in part rebuts the previous argument "what would Mother Cabrini think?")

Other bits:
One lady brought a package of cookies for the commissioners. When the next person got up to speak, (3) said: "would you like a cookie?"

One person displayed (3)'s election campaign flyer. (1) told him he looked so young in that picture. (3) said, "you know, all the tower hearings..."

11:50, public testimony FINALLY closed. Resume at 1:00.

1:18, they started up again. Marti Allbright, lawyer for BCDC spent the next few hourse rebutting public testimony and answering the questions the commissioners and county attorney had from the last hearing. I got tired and bored and quit taking notes. Notable from that time was the new computer and physical model of Alternatives A and B. These were done by a guy from Boulder who, most people in the room agreed, has the COOLEST job out there. The physical model was pretty big, very detailed, and showed that Alternative B is virtually invisible from the west, and decently camoflauged from the east. The computer model showed what someone would see from the south red rocks entrance (1.something miles away) and from Gennessee (2.something miles away to the west). In neither case, in a perspective that would show you what the naked eye would see, could I see Alternative B. He had to zoom in quite a bit for me to tell there was something there. Even zoomed in, from Gennessee, all you could see was the tips of a couple of towers. To be honest, in the photo simulation, I couldn't tell the difference between the tips of the towers and the tips of the trees there.

James Morgese spoke a little about the FCC requirement to go digital and the fact that, yes, analog Channel 6 WILL go away if they don't meet the FCC's digital timeline. He explained that they can't add a transmitter to their current tower, even if it were to get rezoned (which the commissioners would never approve -- you want proof? how about WB2's attempt?), since it wouldn't support the extra weight. They couldn't build a new tower that would support the weight on the current land on Lookout because there isn't enough room for two towers (they need to keep analog 6 on the air while the new tower is being built).

Jay Jacobsmeyer had a ton of information on RF levels and Squaw coverage; the highlight: a slide labeled "DTV Enthusiasts" with excerpts from santellavision's testimony that "real people, with real antennas in real homes west of Wadsworth had trouble pulling in DTV 38". (In my conversation with Al, he said he went in the general area of santellavision's home and got a signal; he also got signal close to, I believe, markdl's location (6 and Sheridan, right?))

After the presentation by BCDC, Staff (Heather Gutherless) and the independent county RF guy had a chance to present their final recommendations. Heather doesn't have a problem removing the requirement for a rock facade. It was a good thought, but doesn't make sense for this application. RF guy pretty much agrees with Jacobsmeyer's findings, but still thinks Squaw could work.

The commissioners took a 10-15 minute break to discuss some things with the County Attorney.

30 minutes later, they came back.

(2), like I said, has real troubles grasping the issues here. I don't think she's convinced that KRMA is in danger of losing their digital license if they don't convert in time, and that the analog signals ARE going away. She's seems to believe that Alternative B is a proliferation of towers. The confusion seems to stem from the fact that there's multiplexing involved. Both alternatives here have an FM antenna. This antenna is the same thing you'd use if you were going to broadcast one FM station. With multiplexing, the same antenna can transmit 10 FM stations. In (2)'s mind, this is a proliferation. They tried explaining the thing to her a few times, but I think her mind's made up. Everything she said at the three hearings leads me to believe she's going to vote NO. Final comment: "I need some questions answered to help my comfort level". Perhaps with the right answers, it'll click with her and she could vote YES. I wouldn't put any money on that, though.

(1), in finally breaking her poker face, appears to be leaning towards YES, but I think she could go either way. Final comment: "This is very creative and innovative. But I still have some questions I need answered"

(3), I still believe will vote YES. He's not giving them a free ride -- he is calling them where appropriate and making sure they give him the right answers. But his tone isn't combative; it appears to be genuine interest in getting this thing done right. Final comment: "I'm encouraged by this proposal, but I'm still concerned about the visibility of the building, especially from the back. Previous proposals made a better attempt to try to hide the building itself, and I'd like to see some of that in this proposal. I think you're heading in the right direction, though."

The hearing was continued for four weeks on the condition that it will just be for BCDC to put in writing all the little changes they agreed to during these hearings and get a proposal that isn't littered with redlined comments and verbal agreements so that it's clearer to the commissioners (and especially the County Attorney) what they're approving. Some of the changes were little things like limiting the number of "feet" on Alternative B. Right now, there are written restrictions on the size of the feet, but no written limit on the number of feet (concern that this tower could be the start of a proliferation). Things like changing the removal timeframe for the Channel 59 tower to 90 days from 6 months. Things like giving the County the legal right to make sure that the Channel 6 analog tower and Channel 59 tower come down.

To be continued on February 4...

On the problem with sound lock on PBS with F38310 and DTC-100s. Last week, I sent another email to KRMA (Carol_Jacobs-Carre@KRMA.pbs.org) and I also copied the message to the PBS HQ contact at digitaltv@pbs.org.

Both parties responded that they thought the problem with the DTC-100 was fixed. They wanted to know my software version. Mine is A05.10, which is the newest.

If you are having problems with KRMA sound lock, I would recommend that you email them so they know there are a number of people out here with the problem.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention the sound lock deal. I talked to the new Director Of Network Engineering at KRMA, Jim Schoedler about the sound issues RCA users are having. He said he'd look into it and got my name and phone number for followup. Apparently Jim is the new Tom (for those of you who remember the great tour he gave us) at KRMA. Guess that explains why Tom never replied to my e-mail (I ended up getting a response from Carol Jacobs-Carre).

Jim's e-mail is jim_schoedler@krma.pbs.org

Originally posted by DP1
But the thing is, Randy, when you've asked this question in the past you were looking to get into something for like 150.00 but thats still not doable..so is that a deal breaker in and of itself? Cause I doubt you'll find much of anything yet under 300.00 since theres no reason for anybody to sell a used one that cheap and also because our local BB's and CC's have never been known to offer those 249.99 open box deals that you read about on like DTC-100's that others have found from them around the country.A couple of months ago I bought an "open box" DTC-100 at the Best Buy on Wadsworth for $250. It has some visible scratches on the top of the unit (looks like something else was stacked on top of it), and no remote, but otherwise it was in good condition. I think this was the last one they had, though, so this probably doesn't help anyone.

Originally posted by mbuchana
Does anyone else still perceive a slight lip-sync problem on Fox? I only see it with Fox material, like 24. The local newscast looked & sounded fine, sync-wise. On 24, the audio seemed very slightly early to me, at least at times. I noticed it also when watching a movie on KDVR last week.The lip synch is always bad on 24. Other shows (like Firefly and Malcolm) seem to be better, but to me FOX always seems to be slightly out of synch (I don't have any problems with CBS or ABC).

One thing I noticed with 24 last night is that when I use the dolby digital output from my STB, the audio was way out of synch, but if I switched to the analog outputs it was only slightly out of synch. Does an ATSC broadcast contain seperate dolby digital and regular (PCM?) audio tracks, or is my STB just down converting the dolby digital to produce the analog output?

Thanks a bunch for the great report, David. And yes, near 6th and Sheridan is my location. :)

Originally posted by sigma957
One thing I noticed with 24 last night is that when I use the dolby digital output from my STB, the audio was way out of synch, but if I switched to the analog outputs it was only slightly out of synch. Does an ATSC broadcast contain seperate dolby digital and regular (PCM?) audio tracks, or is my STB just down converting the dolby digital to produce the analog output?

ATSC only has Dolby Digital audio, but at least in theory you can get different latency/delays by using the analog outputs. You have two cases:

(1) Using STB digital outputs:

[STB digital output]->[Receiver DD decoding]->D to A->out

(2) Using STB analog outputs:

[STB DD decoding]->[STB D to A]->[Receiver A to D]->[Receiver DSP processing (e.g. ProLogic)]->[Receiver D to A]->out

Option (2) can add latency (delays), though I'm surprised the difference is audible. On Fox, I perceived the audio as "early" (I was listening through analog outputs on the STB, option 2), so option (1) would make it worse.

And, the latency involved could be somewhat different depending on the receiver & STB. I have no idea how the standard accounts for that, but I would expect that all of the latencies are assumed inaudible.

Mark

Looks like KUSA is back online. They changed their bar color again too.

Did they really? What's it look like now? In my last email to Don, I specifically asked them to change the bars and the logo. Glad to hear that they're back.

Logo is still there. Bars a darker gray color (charcoal?)

We were having difficulties with it, but back on the air at 10:30 AM.

Thanks for watching 9News.
Sincerely,
Emily Griffith
Executive Assistant


a word from them, it sent it out today, and received this...
happy watching !

The bars color change was very close to what I suggested to Don in an email that I sent him last week. I'm really happy to see that they toned down the logo in the bar (and shrunk it too). Now it's not white!

(Of course I'd rather not see it there at all, but if it has to be there, I'd much rather it be nearly transparent.)

Last night Law & Order was not in widescreen HDTV format on KUSA-DT.

Luckily, I had watched it in widescreen HDTV on BellExpressview the previous hour when is was sent from New York to the stations.

KUSA doesn't have the equipment in place yet to record and transmit the HD signal. "could be a couple of months" was the quote from Don about it. But they have at least ordered the equipment.

Heads up from KRMA programming:

The program River of Iron will be fed in HD on Tuesday 1/14/03 at 20:30 and again at 23:30 (MT).

The new cooking series Chef A' Field will be fed in HD daily at 15:30.
The travel series Smart Travels- Europe with Rudy Maxa will be fed at 17:30 daily both starting 1/13/03.

The program By the People will be fed in HD on Sunday, 1/12 at 8:00 am.
Chefs A' Field # 102 will be fed in HD on Sun. 1/12 at 15:30 followed by:
Leif Ericsson: The Man Who Almost Changed the World at 16:00 (MT).

The program Spirit of Colorado # 602 "Ranch Life" will be fed in HD on Saturday, 1/11 at 19:30 (MT).

If only my DTC-100 (F38310) will get the sound on these!

Yeah that cooking show has already been on PBS National daily at 3:30 local time. For the last week or so.

I've seen it on a different PBS HD channel I have access to. But for KRMA to show it they'd have to start bailing on the local programming sooner than usual wouldnt they? Havent they stayed local til like 4:00 or 4:30 or something like that? I dont know, I havent tuned in during that time of day for quite awhile.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
On the problem with sound lock on PBS with F38310 and DTC-100s. Last week, I sent another email to KRMA (Carol_Jacobs-Carre@KRMA.pbs.org) and I also copied the message to the PBS HQ contact at digitaltv@pbs.org.

Both parties responded that they thought the problem with the DTC-100 was fixed. They wanted to know my software version. Mine is A05.10, which is the newest.

Wow, I'm really behind... A04.37 How do I upgrade?

Mine upgraded within a few days after plugging it in. I'm pretty sure DirecTV pushes those kind of updates (I think on the weekends?) automagically. You may want to call them and tell them you need the update if you've had the receiver for a while and it's still at A04.37.

-David

Just a quick note to bring resolution to some postings I made recently. I wrote about a friend at work who was having trouble getting his CBS network turned on by Dish. After chasing a waiver from Cheyenne, he was still told he couldn't get access. The suggestion you guys made was just to keep trying until he got the right person at Dish. Well, I ran in to him yesterday here at work, and he told me he did what you all suggested and just kept trying. He said he finally got CBS turned on on the west coast feed, so he had to repoint his dish, but everything is fine now. At my suggestion, he also just bought the OTA module, and is going to be working this weekend to get an antenna up and try to get the locals from downtown. Thanks for the suggestions and help.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Mine upgraded within a few days after plugging it in. I'm pretty sure DirecTV pushes those kind of updates (I think on the weekends?) automagically. You may want to call them and tell them you need the update if you've had the receiver for a while and it's still at A04.37.

-David

Oops that explains it. I don't have DirecTV. Any other way?

Have any of you read the editorial page in the RM News today?

Nice comments on the current tower situation.............

Dom,

I think if you stay hooked up to the dish - it will upgrade automatically even if you are not a subscriber. ( I believe I remeber reading this on a posting some place before.)

Reggie

Wierd... I took down my rooftop antenna temporarily while I am doing some modifications to it, and while channel surfing last night, still managed to get CH 35 at 85% and 32 at 78%, no 17 or 80 however. Considering the only thing connected to my E*6000 receiver at that time was about a 40' piece of coax cable which leads up to the roof and nothing connected to the other end I thought it was a bit strange.

So should I scan, and download the guide again, so I Can get the
guide info. on 9-1 ? It still says REGULAR SCHEDULE .

Please advise.

Originally posted by pookers
Have any of you read the editorial page in the RM News today?

Nice comments on the current tower situation.............


For those of us who don't get the RMNews, is there a link to the article?

Sorry it aint on their web page.
TITLE:
It's clear: New TV Tower Is No Threat

Quick question. I finally got my OTA HT up and running and I get 5 channels. The KMGH feed I get has two channels 17-01 and 17-02. First one in HD and second in SD. The signal strength for the first is weaker than the second and I get some gaged edges in the HD channel. Is KMGH broadcasting in HD and SD? From the same tower? Is the gaged edges due to signal loss? I get better reception on this channel removing the amplifier from the antenna. Thoughts? Thanks. Everyone has been great on this forum!

Just some more info to add after reading all the posts on the KMGH signal strength. I may not be getting a 720p feed at all. As I have just hooked this up, can someone tell me how to tell on a dish 6000 when I am getting 1080/720/480 feeds? I can tell for sure on the 1080 just by looking at it. But for the others it is more subtle. Thanks. I have a Mits big screen and I cannot change the modes because it locks to the 1080 feed from the 6000... Thanks.

Kimbray,

KMGH sends the HD feed on 17-1 and an SD feed on 17-2. You will know when you see something come through on 17-1 that is HD (it's always at 720p) - first, it won't be stretched and zoomed. It'll look just about exactly like the HD you see in 1080i. The 6000 converts 720p to 1080i anyways. I get the same signal strength on both 17s on my 6000. Don't have any ideas why you would be getting less on one. And the amplifier...what kind is it, and where'd you get it? A lot of the cheaper amps (ie radio shack) introduce more noise into the signal than your receiver can deal with - hence the lower signal strength. The better ones (channel master, winegard) introduce less noise. And the jagged edges - you may be experiencing the dish 6000 bug that can be fixed by adjusting the 6000's screen position a click or two horizontally. It's in one of the setup options.

Mark,
The 6000 can convert 720p signals to 1080i, but it can also output native 720p. The 6000 has a choice of outputs, 1080i or 720p. In Kibrays's case, he can only use 1080i with his Mits. But i can use either 1080i or 720p native into my Marantz DLP.

If i'm wrong, let me know, but i think it would be odd that the 6000 receives OTA 720p converts it to 1080i and then reconverts it's output back to 720p when it's switched that way?

I have the Channelmaster Amp. I have been playing with having it installed and removing it. I was unable to test Channel 17 because the only content last night was Drew Carey for 30 minutes. I will do some more testing. Thanks for verifying the two different feeds. If I get good reception on 17-01, DOES THAT MEAN I WILL GET THE SUPPER BOWL IN HD!?!?!?!?!
I believe so! COOL!
Thanks all.

Yes, if you get 17-1, you're one of the 20 in the Denver area that will get to watch the SB in HD. I'm jealous! So... is that an invite, huh? Come 'on pretty please... ;)

Watching the NFL on fox tonight.

I see that the picture on BEV is 4X3. But the quality is OK (DVDish).

I also get KDVR-DT. It really looks bad. The picture is fuzzy - not as clear as BEV at all. And the action is not smooth. It looks a bit jerky when they are showing the action - not always, but too often.

Is this a local (KDVR)problem - or a fox (national) problem?

I thought the Tennessee - Pittsburgh game on KCNC-DT was great today.
:)

Phil, I agree! It's how football should be viewed! And a good game, to boot.

Ernie - you are correct. The 6000 can certainly display 720p natively, but I didn't include that in my post to Kimbray because he could only view the 1080i signal.

Kimbray - if you saw Drew Carey in HD, you will be able to watch the superbowl in HD as well. I'd love to have all of you over to my place, but I've already got about 20 people coming for the game, and only have room to seat about 8 of them comfortably...

That AFC game looked amazing today!

I agree on the AFC game. That was the first time I saw a football game in HDTV - wow, what a difference. I think the Jets/Oakland game will be in HDTV too (I hope), looking forward to that as well.

Too bad I won't get the SB in HD - bummer.

Ernie, thanks again for the recommendation on the CM 3021 antenna. Has been working great on all channels in the attic (except 7).

ROCKYMTN,
I bet that was the best $25 you'll ever spend! Like i mentioned, I had temporarily set that thing up in my Dad's SE Denver/Aurora living room and bingo, we got 17, no problem. I'm thinking of replacing my butt ugly 80" with that too.

The game yesterday was AWESOME! I got the gagged things taken care of by moving the side to side picture through the 6000. Looking forward to the game today! I already have a large SB party planned and have limited seating. Sorry all!

Reverified 17-01 last night as well with Ememy of the State. Not as good as 1080 CBS broadcasts but 720p for the SuperBowl will be fine!

Good evening all,

After lurking in this forum for a number of months, I finally went out and got myself a Sony 36XBR800 and a Samsung SIR-T165.

I hooked the T-165 up to an old TV antenna on my chimney (was there when I bought the house). Ran some RG-6 down to the family room and bingo, I'm watching the NFL playoffs in HD! I was extremely impressed with CBS' feed, except for the occasional instances today where they'd cut to a camera that wasn't HD.

Now to the important part. I'm able to pull in KCNC and KUSA with a fairly decent signal strength (each around 50%). Unfortunately, my initial setup doesn't pull in KDVR or KUSA. I'm located in SE Denver (just north of the -25, -225 interchange). I'm going to spend some time on the roof next weekend to try and move the antenna around, with the hope (probably misguided) that I can pull in KUSA for the SB.

Just am opinion, but I thought that today's CBS Raiders/Jets game looked markedly better than yesterday's game with the Titans/Steelers. The contrast was overdone yesterday and the detail wasn't really apparent , at least on my 100 inch front PJ. Today's had that snap I associate with good HD via video.

I even switched back and forth to HDNET to verify my LASIK hadn't gone bad yesterday. :)

Jeff

That's strange, I was thinking just the opposite. I was watching the Raiders game today and thought the picture looked washed out and not sharp. Also the colors just didn't seem true. Yesterdays game felt like I was actually there. Very bright, sharp picture.

Probably just differences in our receivers/TV's.

Equipment:

Hughes E86
Mitsubishi ws-55805

Originally posted by mknoebel
Watching the NFL on fox tonight.

I see that the picture on BEV is 4X3. But the quality is OK (DVDish).

I also get KDVR-DT. It really looks bad. The picture is fuzzy - not as clear as BEV at all. And the action is not smooth. It looks a bit jerky when they are showing the action - not always, but too often.

Is this a local (KDVR)problem - or a fox (national) problem?

I briefly did the same comparison (though I only saw part of the game). Once again I had to turn down the brightness for KDVR to look right, but after that I thought it looked OK (add the obvious "but nothing like the CBS HD game!" here). Maybe I'll do a closer comparison next week.

Earlier today (Sunday) I think they were working on lip sync. I checked out Andy Richter tonight and the lip sync looked fine. So, maybe they got that fixed. I thought Andy looked like good DVD quality (with my usual brightness turn-down for KDVR), which was nice to see.

I spoke to AT&T Broadband Cable last week and they said they will begin supporting HD cable in March 2003. There is no word as to the equipment or channels they will include but they plan to charge an additional $20 over the already high digital cable price for the upgrade. I hope it's going to be worth it.

On a technical note, are any of you getting a high level of digital noise (pops, sizzles, buzzes) with your OTA tuners? I think mine may have caused damage to my Pre-Pro a month or so ago, and now it appears it may have caused damage to the audio circuits in the HD tuner itself. I had to send my Pre-pro in for repair and have been using the television's sound system. As of Jan. 10th I'm getting no sound with any HD channel. The sound on non HD modes work fine but not the DTV antenna feed. I have a Mitsubishi WS-55909 with a built in HD tuner. Any thoughts?

For those of you not on Pete's mailing list, another LCG2 update from him this morning:

Friends,

Good news: we apparently have resolved all the major issues staff had with our application and will be moving forward on February 12th at 6:00 pm with our first hearing before the Planning Commission. While this is a week later than originally anticipated by the County back in October, but we agreed as it provides the staff with the time it needs to process the application. We are hopeful that we will have their support. Subsequent hearings will be on March 12th at 6:00 pm and March 26th, time TBD. All are at the County Building.

We would greatly appreciate your support as well. Either in the form of letters to the Board of County Commissioners (with copies to Susan Wood, Planner) or testimony at the public hearings. I know your time is valuable and offer the following thoughts to those who cannot make it to multiple hearings. History has shown that the first hearing is generally limited to testimony from the applicant, staff, and then recognized groups, i.e. cities, HOAs etc. Individual citizen testimony doesn’t generally begin until the second hearing. Obviously being at the first hearing provides a good understanding of the issues involved and a context for providing your own testimony. If possible, I recommend attending both. If not possible, the second hearing is the more important one as you’re not likely to get to speak at the first. If you choose not to attend the first hearing, you may want to make arrangements with someone who will be there so they can sign you up to speak.

We anticipate staff producing their report around the end of January. We will share it with you at that time so you have a better sense of the issues they have. I believe you’re all well aware of CARE’s concerns.

As an aside, we’ve hired a new web master and the web page will be updated soon. I’ll let you know when it is completed.

Please write or call with any questions. I appreciate all your support to date and hope you will continue to support our efforts.

Peter McNally, Principal
The Grinnell Group
www.grinnellgroup.com

Originally posted by mbuchana
Earlier today (Sunday) I think they were working on lip sync. I checked out Andy Richter tonight and the lip sync looked fine. So, maybe they got that fixed. I thought Andy looked like good DVD quality (with my usual brightness turn-down for KDVR), which was nice to see. I watched Malcolm in the Middle and Andy Richter last night. At one point during Malcolm I thought there was a lip synch problem, but it was fixed after the next commercial break. Andy Richter was fine. We'll see during 24 on Tuesday if they've really fixed the problem...

Originally posted by mbtlriley
I spoke to AT&T Broadband Cable last week and they said they will begin supporting HD cable in March 2003. There is no word as to the equipment or channels they will include but they plan to charge an additional $20 over the already high digital cable price for the upgrade. I hope it's going to be worth it.


That must be a, "We know you can't get OTA-HD, so you will pay what we tell you to pay" additial charge. :rolleyes:

But seriously, that's mainly good news - at least it will create another option with all the new HD channels being added {ESPN-HD, HDNETS, Cinnemax, Bravo, etc...}. It will create pressure to get them added. And options for us if our provider doesn't choose to carry a channel we want.

When I talked to them this fall, they mentioned that when they do roll out HD via cable, it would be all over the front range at the same time. I haven't talked with them since, so I don't know if that is still the case or not.

And still no activity out of Cheyenne. KGWN is still scheduled to be on air this month, but were waiting on a crew to so some installation the last I heard from Joan Turner (GM) - although she hasn't returned my emails this month.

Right now HDTV is the main thing that cable can really offer over satellite. It is the only thing that would make me switch from Dtv. I do hope that Directv realizes how more important HDTV is to their market rather than local programing.

Reggie

Well, with their announcement last week that they are adding 50 new markets for local channels, I don't think they realize it. :(

Remember, Dish & Dtv both have to satisfy the Govt. requirements to provide local channels to as many markets as they can. (Not sure of the numbers pertaining to that requirement)

Also, probably more to the point, they make WAY more money charging all those local subs than they do providing one more HD channel.

Anybody heard about whether Dish is going to charge for HDNet, ESPN or Bravo in the future, like they did with DiscoveryHD?

Actually they dont have to add any local cities if they dont want to. Thats purely a biz desicion to try and snag more subs from cable.

Where the Govt comes into play is that when the DBS co's do happen to decide to carry a certain cities locals then the Must Carry ruling says they have to offer most all the channels in that market. I'm sure the DBS co's would just as soon stop at the top 5 or 6 actual Network afiliates in that market.

What do they offer for Denver.. at least 10 isnt it? I've never checked and I dont subscribe.

EDIT: Ok, I just looked it up since I have no life. DirecTv offers 13 in the Denver package and Dish offers 14. Scary stuff.

Originally posted by JohnJr
Hi guys,

Regarding a Picket of KMGH Channel 7 DT-17 ABC.

As I stated earlier I am sick and tired of KMGH's refusal to accomodate our request to move their DTV transmitter to Republic Plaza during the Lookout Mountain transition period. I believe that it is time that we take an aggressive, attacking, approach to dealing with management at KMGH.

As far as I know, ABC Corporate is the second largest OTA supplier of HDTV with shows such as NYPD Blue, The Drew Carey Show, Alias, The Practice, etc., being broadcast weekly in 720p HDTV and DD 5.1. ABC also will be broadcasting sporting events in 2003, including the Super Bowl, games of the National Basketball Association finals and the Stanley Cup. In addition ABC announced that it will broadcast the 2003 season of Monday Night Football in HDTV.

These shows are not available to a significant portion of us in the Denver Metro Area, and it's not like we can turn the channel to another provider and see them. KMGH has a monopoly on these shows. Their refusal to relocate their transmitter to Republic Plaza has the net effect of denying us our "right" to see these shows in HDTV.

I would propose that we picket KMGH's studio located downtown at Speer and Lincoln on January 23rd and 24th, the Thursday and Friday before the Superbowl on January 26th, to draw attention from passers by to the problems at KMGH. I would hope that we could get a minimum of 2-3 people in two shifts, one during the AM Rush Hour (sunrise to 9am or so) and one during the PM Rush Hour say 4pm to 6pm.

I would also hope that we could get out letters to all of the other media outlets in town prior to the actual picket dates stating our position and why we feel it necessary to take this action against KMGH. It is possible that we can get additional coverage from some of these other outlets.

We should also contact KMGH and ABC corporate and let them know of our intended actions.

If you feel that this is an appropriate action to take and would like to participate, please PM me with when you would be available. If this looks to be a GO then I will do some additional groundwork like figuring out where and when we should park and meet, etc.

-John

I'm still looking for people that are fed up with KMGH and willing to picket their studios on the Thursday and Friday before the Superbowl. Please PM me if you are in.

Thanks...

-John

santellavision - there is absolutely ZERO requirement for the DBS providers to carry even 1 city. All the SHVIA did was change the copyright laws enough to ALLOW them to carry LIL. As Dan (DP1) stated, that same law also put MustCarry into DBS as well - what this essentially allows is the "non-major" stations the access that the major stations can usually negotiate.

Not much going in the last couple of days obviously with our little thread here buried on page 3...so a friendly bump with my splitting story.

Thought I'd see this past weekend how many times I could split my antenna signal before I lost channel 17. I'm adding a 2nd hipix to my other computer, so I needed a 3rd cable run from my antenna for it. I installed the cable over the weekend through the attic and down the wall to my office. With the 2nd split (-7db) I lost 15 points of signal strength (measured on my hipix) on 17. Still enough for a lock, but not as comfortable as it has been. So for grins I added another splitter to the mix and lost another 10 points taking me below the lock threshhold. So, without a amp mounted on my antenna, I can split my line 3 ways before losing 17. Interestingly enough, even with the 3rd split (4 lines) I only lost a couple of points from 9, 18, 32 and 35. Amazing what a just a little more power and better location can do.

I have moved my antenna around and now get a 53-54 signal on my Dish 6000 for KMGH. So as long as it doesn't rain/snow I should be set for the SB.

I also added NBC to my digital channel list. I see in another post that they don't have HD recording equipment. Does that mean that we are not getting ED, ER, etc in HD yet?

Greetings,

Decided to connect a rabbit ears antenna to my toshiba DTS3000 box that had been sitting in the closet for the last 9 months. and to my surprise, I get 2 hdef channels without much fuzz and fox too! woo hoo! needless to say I am excited!
and wondering if any of you guys know if I can buy the CM 3021 antenna here in Denver? or will any radio shack/home depot outdoor antenna will do? thanks....

Brian - no HD on KUSA yet. I'm hoping by the end of the month, and expecting it by the end of next month. They have ordered the equipment, but not all of it has arrived yet.

jpineda - a few of us are using the Radio Shack UHF only yagi antenna with good results. I think that Listen Up could order you a channel master antenna, or you *might* be able to get one at Fistells (downtown at 9th and Bannock - big electrical parts store) but other than that I don't think they are available around here. www.starkelectronic.com is a popular site to order channel master equipment from. Congrats on getting the channels. Wherebouts are you located?

Can someone post the Denver DTV reception link for me. I can't find it. Maybe all the 'new' guys/gals can post their reception results to our list.

Finally finished modifying my antenna. My CM4228 is now 11' above my roof line and easily clears my neighbors roof and the furnace exhaust stack. The real impetus was to ensure the best reception possible of 17-ABC for the Superbowl. I am now getting 17 rock-solid at 82-85% on my E*6000/8PSK.

How's this for line-of-site to the Republic Plaza and the CH17 building (see the lower portion of the photo)?

http://home.earthlink.net/~tim_schaefer/files/antenna.jpg

I've been lurking in here for a couple of months and thought I'd introduce myself...

I bought a 36 Sony HD ready set last year and had been really disappointed with the picture on DirecTV - the big set sure made the artifacts obvious. After reading about HDTV OTA reception in here I decided last Friday to take a shot at a OTA Tuner, with the assurance I could return it if I didn't like it.

I bought a Zenith 420, brought it home and hooked it up to a old fashioned VHF/UHF rooftop style antenna that I'd put up in the garage rafters for FM/NTSC reception a while ago. No messing around, I got all five channels very nicely!!! Football was great last weekend, even if the 49ers lost. And by adjusting the antenna a little bit, the dropouts seemed to have stopped completely.

I am in Highlands Ranch, up pretty high, with the garage having a pretty clear shot at Lookout and downtown. I guess I'm just lucky.

Now I just need HDirecTivo.....

Steve

There was some discussion a few days ago about lip-sync problems on fox. I noticed it during the football games over the weekend, but for most of the game it really isn't that important. But I watched 24 last night and it was bad. Made it almost impossible for me to watch. Which is too bad because the picture wasn't too bad (NOT HD, but similar to DVD).

Which leads me to another question. I think they do a terrible job with football. It isn't a clear picture, it isn't smooth (unless it's just a KDVR problem). But 24's picture was acceptable for non-HD. Is there something that causes football to look worse than their studio shows??

Still nothing out of Cheyenne.
Nice antenna, jetlag!
Welcome, Steve.

Originally posted by mknoebel
There was some discussion a few days ago about lip-sync problems on fox. I noticed it during the football games over the weekend, but for most of the game it really isn't that important. But I watched 24 last night and it was bad. Made it almost impossible for me to watch. Which is too bad because the picture wasn't too bad (NOT HD, but similar to DVD).


I was frustrated to see the lip-sync problem again on 24. At times it seemed much worse than at other times. Locally inserted commercials were fine, as was the 9 PM news that followed.

Mark

Markdl, thanks for your input, I will check the link you gave me. I am located by Orchard and Parker rd. in the piney creek neighborhood. eventhoug I get channel 9-1 it has a lot of dropouts , my receiver is showing 44 on the reception meter. are getting any dropouts on channel 9-1 (16)?

Ernie, here's a link to the reception page: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587&highlight=Denver
To everyone who's joined us recently and hasn't posted their reception results, please do! :)

Jetlag - that's a heck of a great setup! Wow!

Welcome to the group Steve! Congratulations on getting all of the channels without much work!

Whew, after searching back 20 pages in this thread, I finally found what I was looking for. Actually, while it's not funny, it really kind of is - if you go back and look at pages 148-149 of this thread, you'll see posts back almost word for word the same as the posts the last couple of days about the lip sync on 32. Send an email to Pete Bangas at pbang353@foxtv.com - he's the engineering contact we now have at KDVR since Mike left back around Thanksgiving.

jpinda - I have no dropouts on 9-1, but I'm pegging my signal meter at 100%, as I'm only 4 miles from Republic (at about 2nd and Sheridan).

Yeah 44 signal strength on a DST-3000 is somewhat marginal, hence the dropouts I would suppose. You just need to upgrade from the rabbit ears. Besides that, once you do you'll be able most likely to get more than just 2 HD channels anyway.

Jpenida,

I also get the occasional dropout out 9.1. It happens in spurts......then stays rock solid for an hour or so. I live at University & Kentucky and lock on KCNC and KRMA strong and never have a dropout.

I was wondering if anyone knows the broadcast strength for KCNC, KRMA and KUSA from Republic Plaza ?

Doug

Originally posted by Doug888
I was wondering if anyone knows the broadcast strength for KCNC, KRMA and KUSA from Republic Plaza ? Doug,
See here http://bricklin.org/AVSForum/Map_files/Low-Power DTV Downtown map.gif. I haven't updated it yet with KUSA's power. I'll try to find out what that is.

Edit: The map shows Effective Radiated Power (ERP) in kilowatts. All three RP broadcasters are limited to a 1kw transmitter. The ERP is different for all three due to their station freq. and the size and gain of their particular antenna. I talked to Don Perez at KUSA -- he said they get around 11kw ERP.

Originally posted by mknoebel
But I watched 24 last night and it was bad. Made it almost impossible for me to watch. Which is too bad because the picture wasn't too bad (NOT HD, but similar to DVD).I was very disappointed with the lip-synch problems on 24 last night. After 20 minutes I gave up and watched the analog feed. Does anyone have a contact at FOX that we could ask about this?

Thanks Mark. I sent Pete an email on the lip sync problem. Also asked a couple of questions about the problems I've seen during football.

I think as many people as possible should email him so they know we're watching.

sigma957 - see my post 4 above yours. Pete's the guy to send the email to.

Originally posted by markdl
sigma957 - see my post 4 above yours. Pete's the guy to send the email to. Thanks, I'll send him an e-mail. (Don't know how I missed your post...)

Originally posted by markdl
Whew, after searching back 20 pages in this thread, I finally found what I was looking for. Actually, while it's not funny, it really kind of is - if you go back and look at pages 148-149 of this thread, you'll see posts back almost word for word the same as the posts the last couple of days about the lip sync on 32. Send an email to Pete Bangas at pbang353@foxtv.com - he's the engineering contact we now have at KDVR since Mike left back around Thanksgiving..... You can go a lot farther back than that and find similar complaints. I am not sure KDVR has ever NOT had lipsync problems. Mike kindly showed me and another forum member around the KDVR studio 1 1/2 years ago (or so) and they had the lipsync problem then....unfortunately they just don't get it. You may want to include a note with any emails to them suggesting that they watch the lips move as they listen to the audio - perhaps they can then manage to figure out what the term lipsync means.

Mark mentioning going back 20 pages made me curious as to how big this thread actually was. There are 3376 posts and 102,537 views. :eek: And like you mentioned, Geof. Not much has changed. :mad:

I might mention here that the best way to search this thread is to use the "show printable version" button down towards the bottom of each page, and then choose "show all posts". This will give you a flat file of the entire thread that you can then search through in one wack.

-John

Yeah but, David Bott restarted this thread three times because it got so big. So this is the fourth iteration of the same thread. There's probably more than 10,000 posts! I don't know who started the first thread or when -- can't seem to get at the earlier threads on the UBB server anymore.

Ron,

Thanks for the Kw info. Sometimes I just need to turn the rotor a couple of degrees to cure the dropout problem. However, it could be a wife problem, it seems to only happen during Crossing Jordan.......or some of her other favorite shows................

Thanks again.

Doug

Ron,

The other three incarnations of this thread can be accessed from the "links" section of the Denver DTV site located here. (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/links.htm)

From what I recall they were much smaller post wise. Maybe 600 posts between them.

-John

Edit: mbuchana started the thread on 08/28/00

Looks like there were, 636, 434 and 289 posts respectively. :)

I also did a REALLY REALLY REALLY slow search and found all the threads. I guess we're only up to about 4800 posts.

Thanks

Ron,

While I was posting the above message I was about to say that the links were on your site! It's just now that I am realizing that you have the reception maps on your site, and Ernie has the rest of the Denver DTV tower stuff on his site. Have ya'll talked about putting everything on one site?

Thanks.

-John

Originally posted by JohnJr
I'm still looking for people that are fed up with KMGH and willing to picket their studios on the Thursday and Friday before the Superbowl. Please PM me if you are in.

Thanks...

-John

I have one person that has responded so far. Maybe I need to scale down the protest and just say a week from this coming Friday, the 24th... 6am to 9am. If we are going to do this, I need to see some Private Messages today and tomorrow and Friday. I want to be able to get out letters to the press saying we will be there. I think that is crucial.

Thanks!

-John

Originally posted by JohnJr
Have ya'll talked about putting everything on one site? No need to. What would be the purpose? This way, I can maintain the maps and he can maintain the rest.

Johnjr, I had already emailed you that I was in for the picket -- any one timeslot.

Ron,

Thanks... that makes two (plus me = 3) starting to look like a go!

-John

Originally posted by JohnJr

Edit: mbuchana started the thread on 08/28/00


Yes, I remember those early days. Since then, I've learned:

(1) that Digital TV has made getting the sound synchronized with the image a very difficult problem, apparently. Some day, "talkies" will really work, like they did in the 1920s with "The Jazz Singer."

(2) that the inside of JeffCo's Taj Mahal is very fancy, just like the outside

(3) how to install an antenna rotator, in the so-far-in-vain hope of getting HDTV from Cheyenne, and

(4) most of the words to "O Canada."

But mostly things are the same as they were then!

Mark
:rolleyes:

Last week someone posted that ATT/Comcast was going to start delivering HD in March. So I decided to call them up to see if it would be in Greeley right away or if I'd have to wait. Well, I get this guy who seems to know what HD is (which is a good start). But he tells me that they have decided not to offer HD until "more programming is offered in HD". I tried to explain to him that most of prime time was now in HD (even asked him to name a show, and I bet it would be in HD). He said, no, I mean ALL shows in HD. I asked him if he was trying to tell me that they wouldn't offer HD to their customers until Dr. Phil and Oprah were in HD??? He then just repeated his statement that they wouldn't be offering HD until more programming was in HD.

But then he told me that in March, they would be offering a "box" that had s-video output and surround sound capabilities. He wasn't sure exactly what that was, but he had heard about it.

**sigh**

Anyone else beat there head against the wall - I mean try to call ATT to check on it??

By the way, there is another thread in the programming section that says that cable companies have to offer you just the basic channels in HD if that's all you want - that they can't make you sign up for a bunch of stuff. Good news for those of us who want to keep the dishes, too. (yes, I did mean to make dishes plural) ;)

Yesterday, I called ATT here in Denver and asked about HD. The girl that answered knew what HD was but said there were no immediate plans to offer HD and did not have any idea when that would happen. Same answer as to when broadband internet might be available in my neighborhood. (IE, maybe never!)

On another point. There was an announcement that CBS was going to have the Grammys in HD AND in Dolby 5.1 in about 25 markets. (I don't know the date.) I sent David Layne an email asking about this (and taking the time to give him and CBS more positive strokes).

He just replied that they were working on it and SHOULD make the date.

That is GOOD news!!

Yes, the Grammy's will be in HD on CBS. The Academy Awards will be in HD on ABC too. Everyone be sure to write KMGH and thank them for being on the air so the metro area can watch that in HD too.....oops, only 15 people can pick KMGH up.

For those of you not on Pete's DL, I received this a couple of days ago:

From: Pete McNally [pete@grinnellgroup.com ]
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: LCG Update

All,

The County informed us yesterday that they had told us the wrong hearing dates. The hearings dates are as follows:

February 12 at 6:00pm

March 5 at 6:00 pm

March 12 at 6:00 pm

Sorry for the confusion. On the plus side, our third hearing date is now two weeks sooner!

Pete
These are the Planning Commission hearings, not the Board of County Commissioners hearings. The outcome of these hearings are recommendations to the JeffCo BCC. They still do need support if you can make it.

Ron,

Thanks for the update. I will put into my calendar.

Jeff

Don,
Can you give us an update on KWGN's Transmitter status?
Thanks

Does anyone know when 38 will be back on the air? I wish KUSA-DT would broadcast HDTV.

I notice this morning that 17 is lighting up the 5.1 audio indicator on my Denon receiver. Thats a first. Of course the audio is just coming out of the L/R fronts at the moment on the news programming.

I noticed my Onkyo receiver indicated dolby on 17 last night.

The AFC Championship game looked great again last night, but I wish they would cool it with all of the camera zooming. They need to talk to HD Net about how to produce a game for HD. The HD so-mo replays were great though!

Dan, I hope our antenna job holds up for another week for SuperBowl :)

Hahaha, there ya go Phil. Pray for no intense weather fronts.

If you "saw" it 5.1 last night, was there any actual HD programming on that was utilizing true 5.1 as opposed to the quasi? Like Alias or The Practice normally is from the Network? I didnt catch any ABC stuff last night.

I didn't pay attention last night when I was surfing channels.

This morning 17 is indicating Dolby durnig "Wayne Brady" but I am not getting sound out of my rear speakers. HBO HD (A Beautifull Mind) and the Dish PPV (Jason X) are showing Dolby and I am getting sound from all speakers. All other (digital channels) are showing up as PL II.

Buy the way, I got a Radioshack 15-2133 Kameleon remote that is working great with my setup. It controls both my 6000 and 501 on different addresses plus my VCR, DVD and Onkyo receiver. My kids like it because it looks cool. I tried a Sony VL-900 which controlled everything but found the family digging for the old remotes rather then learning what keys do what on the Sony.

I remember that KMGH told us that this ( 5.1 ) would be their next upgrade as opposed to an antenna move to Republic. Just hope it doesn't cause droputs or lip sync issues while viewing.

Jeff

I'm sure they still have some kinks to work out. For one thing they shouldnt be sending out the 5.1 flag if the programming isnt really 5.1 because then it's screwy for the non 5.1 programming. It should only switch to it as the content dictates.

That said, as long as it works correctly when the content is indeed 5.1 (all ABC's true HD) then I dont really care how they do it on the rest of the programming because I wont watch their hideous crop/stretch on 17.1 anyway.

Maybe we'll find out more tonight because I believe the Network is sending out The Rock (Connery/Cage) in HD/5.1 this evening.

Originally posted by jeffden
I remember that KMGH told us that this ( 5.1 ) would be their next upgrade as opposed to an antenna move to Republic. Just hope it doesn't cause droputs or lip sync issues while viewing.

Jeff The rich get richer and the lucky get luckier. Unforunately the unfortunate get nothing.....makes (no) sense to me...

KMGH?? 17-1?? 5.1??

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make any noise?

If KMGH broadcasts to only 20 people will anyone in Denver know?

Thankfully there are other sources for ABC network shows (i.e. the Super Bowl).

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make any noise?Well if it does it will evidently soon be in surround sound .... In the meantime I can guarantee I won't be watching KMGH anytime soon - even for the Super Bowl.

DD 5.1 for channel 17 is a moot point when no one can receive their channel. I will be down there Friday morning with my coffee, and my pick sign.

Thankfully there are other sources for ABC network shows (i.e. the Super Bowl).

Such as?

Originally posted by jpineda
Such as?

Candian sources etc. Unfortunately all other solutions are either very complicated, very expensive, or both. Not really subjects for detailed discussion in open forums such as this.
As one of my old college profs used to say, "It's well known to those who know it well."

jm,
I don't know why you get so paranoid about posting ExpressVu info? I see it posted all time on AVS. And the Govt. isn't that concerned with this gray area, especially with only a few hundred of us HD enthusists.

And with our Denver tower debacle, as we all know... it's gonna' be many, many years yet before we get full-power HD in Denver. So, i'm about ready to start singing O'Canada, and get an ExpressVu setup myself. I've read that ExpressVu is soon to provide all the US networks in HD from both coasts on discrete channels. When that happens, I'm there baby!

Well the DD5.1 on the rock is sounds great tonight on 17-1 so their equipment is all in place. NOW PLEASE MOVE YOUR ANTENNA!!!!

Originally posted by santellavision
jm,
I don't know why you get so paranoid about posting ExpressVu info? I see it posted all time on AVS. And the Govt. isn't that concerned with this gray area, especially with only a few hundred of us HD enthusists.


My concern comes from MANY years of watching things on my various BUD receivers. It is pretty much a given for the past 20 years that anytime 'out of market' or 'in the clear' networks start getting discussed in the open and many people begin watching them, that the shows get 'shut off' or scrambled. As yu probably know, EVu has indeed filed suit in Canada (and won) in an effort to shut off any Direct TV subscribers living in Canada.

All it would take is some local network (like KMGH) to decide they were losing enough market share to file a suit. TVRO folks didn't have any problem receiving 'out of market' networks for many years until the practice got to be fairly well known from discussions in the print media, and then the networks went to Congress to shut them off. The result was the SHVA which shut off 'out of market' networks to nearly everyone. I simply am a firm believer that speaking of such things in open forums is the same as waiving a red flag in front of a bull. Eventually you will get a reaction, most likely not one you want. KMGH and ABC are not threatened by Express Vu or anyone else. They can shut them off any time they decide it is worth the effort. That will be just as soon as it makes economic sense. As long as the subject is not discussed openly, they have no idea how many potential viewers they are losing. Call that paranoia if you will, I think it is simply prudent to keep things low key. I have no problem discussing the issue in PM's with people, and have several times in this thread posted web sites with information on the subject.

Also, in the previous incarnations of this thread, there was detailed info on EXVU. Do a search through the previous threads and if I remember correctly, it's all there! I used the info there to get a Canadian system before we had anything except KMGH doing anything.


Then, I sold it for the same cost to another member here who could not receive the low power signals via antenna even when they started appearing from KCNC and the like. I still considered it a very wise investment for the time period I used it with absolutely no cost except the monthly fee for the programming.

J

Well, the 5.1 sound on the Rock was great, BUT I am still getting dropouts on the picture now and then. (The sound didn't cause it as their signal has been worse for some time now.) Haven't gone up to the roof to tweak the antenna yet and it really annoys me that they took sound as the priority over getting out a better signal. What screwed up priorities!!

I am helping a neighbor who is new to HD put up an antenna just in the hopes of getting ABC for the super bowl. We will see. He gets all the other stations with just an indoor antenna.

OK, I know I shouldn't post this, but I just can't stop laughing at the concept.

--Martinko Rant Mode ON--

Couldn't help but notice a slick add (what else would you expect from Colorado's Leading station) about buying a new television to watch the Super Bowl on KUSA last night. On the 10 PM news, KUSA ran a segment about buying a large screen TV to watch the Super Bowl. They started the story by 'mentioning' that the Super Bowl will be televised in High Definition this year (no mention of where).
"This is the busiest time of year for television sales. Lots of people are looking for a new screen to watch the Super Bowl, which is being broadcast in high definition for a super-sharp picture."

They then presented a story about the beauty of HD pictures compared to the old format (an interesting insight since they have yet to televise anything in HD themselves). They showed a reporter standing next to a couple of HD sets, pointing at them and describing how sharp and clear the pictures are. (Of course they only televise in glorious SD, so it didn't really look that great). They followed with a story about the latest Consumer Report's picks for the best (and of course we all know how good CR is at reviewing high end A/V gear) in HDTV's.

The story is at:
http://kusa.com/storyfull-consumer.asp?id=10424

I thought it was pretty spirited of KUSA to make sure everyone knows the SB is in HD this year. I wonder if they were hoping that anyone watching their show will call KMGH to ask how to receive the signal????

BTW, has anyone heard if KMGH is going to open their parking lot this Sunday so people can drive their motor homes or SUV's down with their HD TV in the vehicle so they will be close enough to the transmitter to actually see the SB in HD??? I wonder if KMGH has plans to provide electricity to power all those TV's and STB's? It would, after all, be the 'sporting' thing for them to do since they don't see the need to broadcast to more than their own parking lot anyway.

It will be fun to see if KMGH makes a comment some night about HDTV and the beauty of watching Jay Leno in brilliant HD each night. They could even comment that KUSA (according to the KUSA reporting staff) might soon be available from its new transmitter on Mt. Morrison.


--Martinko Rant Mode OFF--

Sorry to all, I know there is nothing constructive here, but I just can't let all the hypocrisy involved in all of this pass without at least a comment.

jm,

Odd story all right.

Jeff

I received the following email from Don Perez in response to my email to Mark Koebrich and Roger Ogden (cc Don Perez) in regard to their piece about HDTV and that a viewer would think they could just go out and buy a HDTV and receive the super bowl and KUSA. Obviously, I pointed out, they can't!!


Thank you for your note. We have recently started our Low Power HDTV broadcast from a Downtown Denver location. Reception of this service in metro Denver will vary depending on location and the antenna system. We do not expect this signal will reach all of our audience. The solution to this situation is the approval a joint project with a number of other Denver broadcasters on Lookout Mtn. As you may know, this will be our second attempt to receive zoning approval from Jefferson County to build a facility. The equipment systems for HD record and playback are not in place at our studios. We expect that in the next thirty to forty five days these systems should be operational. We will then pass through any NBC HD programming. Again, thank you for your interest in HDTV.


Let's see how accurate 30 to 45 days is for their HD signal.

JohnJr.
How is the response so far for a demonstration outside KMGH on Friday? Do you have any plans to contact KMGH while you are there? Do you plan to call up KCNC and KUSA to see if they want to cover you?

I recently sent an email to Jerry Butler (jbutler@pbs.org) in engineering at PBS HQ to ask if he had made any progress in regard to my sound lock problems on PBS with RCA DTC-100 receivers. Others have reported the same problems on this and other threads.

Here is his reply to me:

Dennis,

We have a couple of outstanding audio issues which have been very difficult to track down. The only difference that I know of is that PBS uses the maximum bit rate for audio, 384kbps while most others run one of the lower bit rates. This should not be a problem as the standard allows for any rate up to 448kbps. It does not sound like this is the problem you are having though. One of the problems we constantly face is that we are very early in the implementation of MPEG and the interpretation of standard does vary between manufacturers. Since you were so specific I think we can make some progress but we just been busy with some other DTV issues.

I keep a folder for viewer emails and I try to follow up. If we get some resolution I’ll get back to you and I do consider it an open issue.

Regards

Jerry


Maybe there is hope. It is clear they at least listen. (Unlike KMGH and ABC.)

I am getting a good 79 signal strength on KMGH on my mitsu hd500 but when I watch i get a little pixilation here and there. Is there anything that I should do to get rid of this. I have already tried moving the antena on the roof side to side to see if it was multipath nut it just gets worse. I have the radioshak $20 uhf only on my roof. I am located at the corner of university & quebeq, right by the post office. Is the an amplifier that radio shack sells that could give me the boost I need for no pixilation. Any help would be appriciated. Boy watching the afc games in hd makes you addicted and willing to do anything to get more. Is this CRACK?

I sent an e-mail to KMGH asking if there was anything they could do to improve their signal to the east and southeast parts of town for the Superbowl. Here is the 'no-brainer' reply:

-------------------------
Dear Mr. Bucciarelli,

Thank you for your interest in Denver's 7, KMGH - TV/DT and more specifically the Super Bowl. KMGH broadcasts a low power digital signal on UHF channel 17, from the top of our building at Speer and Lincoln Street. Best results will be obtained if your receive antenna has line of sight to the top of our building.

Unfortunately there is no possibility the power will be boosted as the transmitter is operating at full power right now.

If I may be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.
---------------------------------

Did anyone ever find out how much power their little transmitter and coat-hanger is actually putting out? Is it like 1k watts?

I'm now convinced that their current setup is in place simply to comply with the FCC DTV roll-out schedule, not to provide any kind of real DTV broadcast service to our area.

So, if you get the signal, you're in luck; if not, sorry, you'll just have to wait until the new broadcast towers are up. I can deal with that.

I also see the beancounter logic. Why spend money to move the transmitter to a temporary location, knowing that you're going to just tear it down in a year or two anyway. Sure, you'll disappoint a few DTV early-adopters, but they're only 0.0001% of your viewing audience.

Hey! 4 out of 5 ain't bad... :-\

Why spend money to move the transmitter to a temporary location, knowing that you're going to just tear it down in a year or two anyway. Sure, you'll disappoint a few DTV early-adopters, but they're only 0.0001% of your viewing audience. Geeze, you're joking right? Why bother to even move to the new tower when (and if) it's built...I mean after all it will only be .0002% of the viewership then.

KMGH is broadcasting digital??? Get out!
:eek:
But I don't live in their parking lot, how can I get it at my home??
:mad:

Originally posted by peppermint
I am getting a good 79 signal strength on KMGH on my mitsu hd500 but when I watch i get a little pixilation here and there. Is there anything that I should do to get rid of this. I have already tried moving the antena on the roof side to side to see if it was multipath nut it just gets worse. I have the radioshak $20 uhf only on my roof. I am located at the corner of university & quebeq, right by the post office. Is the an amplifier that radio shack sells that could give me the boost I need for no pixilation. Any help would be appriciated. Boy watching the afc games in hd makes you addicted and willing to do anything to get more. Is this CRACK?

Hey peppermint, welcome to our thread! :)

Some of the pixellation you see may be a result of issues that KMGH is having. I was seeing pixellation on 17 on a couple of different shows for a long time - picture would break up and reform every 3 minutes on the dot. But, at least for the 2 shows that I used to see that on (NYPD Blue and Alias) that seems to have cleared up, although I didn't watch either of them this week. And, there have been reports of pixellation this week because KMGH just got their DD5.1 equipment installed. Could have something to do with that. A SS of 79 is really strong - I don't get more than 59 and I'm only 4 miles from their building due west. I suspect that the ratshack amp would make your problem worse, not better because it would introduce more noise into the signal and that noise could cause more problems for your decoder. I.e. you might see your SS drop. Are there any specific shows that you're seeing the pixellation on, or does it seem pretty random?

I only get a 69 or 70 signal strength on KMGH-DT and I live near Florida and Monaco in southeast Denver.

Originally posted by Geof
Geeze, you're joking right? Why bother to even move to the new tower when (and if) it's built...I mean after all it will only be .0002% of the viewership then.

Not really. I didn't say that I agreed with it, I just said I can see where their logic is coming from (beancounters).

And by the same logic, your argument is correct: The beancounters would say to wait until some more significant percentage of the viewing population gets DTV receivers (or wait until the FCC forces you) to set up your full-power broadcast on the mountain.

I have no idea how much it costs to set up a new commercial broadcast facility, but I'm certain 'return-on-investment' comes into play in these decisions.

Originally posted by peppermint
I am getting a good 79 signal strength on KMGH on my mitsu hd500 but when I watch i get a little pixilation here and there. ...

Could this be due to interference from the PAX (??) analog broadcast from the repeater in Ft. Collins (??) on the same channel?

(Sorry, I can't exactly remember where that analog signal on 17 comes from.)

Originally posted by dbucciar
Not really. I didn't say that I agreed with it, I just said I can see where their logic is coming from (beancounters).

And by the same logic, your argument is correct: The beancounters would say to wait until some more significant percentage of the viewing population gets DTV receivers (or wait until the FCC forces you) to set up your full-power broadcast on the mountain.

I have no idea how much it costs to set up a new commercial broadcast facility, but I'm certain 'return-on-investment' comes into play in these decisions. Well most TV stations are using that logic. Unfortunately for them converting to digital, as large as the expense may be, is the cost of staying in business...they either a switch (or at some point) get turned off for good. The FCC has setup a timetable for this and a lot of stations failed to meet the timetable. Some have valid excuses, others do not. Unfortunately our Denver stations have been hiding behind the Lookout Mtn situation far too long.....(there was a period of almost two years where they basically did nothing). IMO KMGH is using their pathetically low power setup in the guise that it meets the intent of doing DTV. However, even with the existing Lookout situation they could be doing more and frankly (IMO) the FCC should be forcing them to do more (like moving to Republic). Given that the FCC accepts the current KMGH situation I cannot help but wonder if the FCC would be satisfied if a station put a paper clip on the output of a 1 Watt amplifier sitting in a rack somewhere.....after all it would be transmitting a signal...

The fact that KMGH chose to upgrade to 5.1 instead of moving to Republic is repugnant to me. They have perhaps the best possibly of helping the transition process when MNF begins HD next year. That only a select few will be able to receive their "parking lot signal" does not help convert the masses to H/DTV.

I too have noticed some pixellation on 17 lately. I can watch my signal strength hover around 40 and still see pixellation. (My F38310 gets a picture above about 34.)

My family likes the Eight Rules show and it was pixellating badly enough that my 12 year old daughter went upstairs to watch it on SD. In her case, content is WAY more important than picture. Anyway, I tried a channel change away and back and, what do you know, the pixellation was significantly better. I'm guessing that with such low power, we are exploriing whole new realms of trying to receive an HD signal from KMGH. Go figure. I just hope the SB is fairly reliable as I have about 10 people coming to watch it! SD off the satellite won't cut it.

Hey, JMartinko, with your current very clever and appropriate sarcasm towards KUSA and KMGH, I wanted to challege you to come up with something their call letters might better stand for. I tried, but mine were all pretty lame. Gotta have some fun with all this!

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Hey, JMartinko, with your current very clever and appropriate sarcasm towards KUSA and KMGH, I wanted to challege you to come up with something their call letters might better stand for. I tried, but mine were all pretty lame. Gotta have some fun with all this!

Why can't we all play:

KMGH = K-Milliwatt Gear Haven

:D

For KMGH and KUSA, avoidance is saving them huge sums of money. Sure they will argue they have spent a lot of money on the several Jeffco applications, but when spread over 5 or 6 stations, it really wasn't that much money. If a large number of people can get their signal in HD from the Republic building then the viewership might start growing. KRMA and KCNC are to be given a lot of credit for pushing the envelope when it really wasn't necessary. I suspect they have gotten a LOT of flak from KUSA and KMGH.
What happens if all of the major stations were on the Republic Building in HD? Word of mouth would soon get out that it is cool and then people in other areas beyond the KMGH parking lots would start putting pressure on Jeffco to let them build the full power tower and facilities. The new tower and facilities will be expensive, so why would the stations be in a hurry to do that??? The FCC doesn't seem to be pushing them. KUSA is already number one in the market as they are fond of saying, and KMGH was the first on the air in HD. The only way the beancounters can continue to show the profits they have is to avoid building full power HD in any way they can. Jeffco and (S)CARE have provided the perfect excuse.

Face it folks, the stations here in Denver are in no hurry to provide any of us with HD until the FCC forces them to. That is really the bottom line. If you really want network HD forget the locals and pursue alternatives.

Besides, the longer they stall in providing HD to the area, the further out they can justify not providing local news etc. in HD as well. I can just imagine what the reply from KUSA might be like. <Begin dream sequence>

"Dear AVS forum member,
In reply to your recent question as to when we will begin broadcasting our evening news in HD, as you must know we at KUSA are the leading station in the city of Denver. [KMGH would likely replace that line with "As you know we were first on the air with HD in the entire state] We have only recently (2007) finished construction of our new HD transmission facility on Lookout Mountain. We expect it to be operational and on the air within the next six months. Due to our budget limitations, it is just impossible at this time for us to fund the upgrade of our studios with HD cameras too. You must realize that only about 0.05% of the Denver area can receive HD in their homes anyway. We do anticipate upgrading our studios to provide HD services as soon as we can afford to, perhaps as early as 2012"
Yours truly
KUSA (Yes we are still Denver's Leading Station).
or
KGMH (Yes, we were first on the air in HD)
<end dream sequence>
One of the interesting parts of being in this thread for years now is watching the new members come in. Most start out 'gung ho' and ready to fight to get HD. It used to take about a year, then six months, and now only a few weeks until the new members realize what a waste of effort this is and start asking how to get Canadian services or CBS from Dish. Next you go out and spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars to get equipment so you can have access to network HD like everyone else in the country gets for free. For those new folks wondering what happens after several years of dealing with this cr*p, you get to by cynical and fed up with it all like me. Now there is something to set your sights on. Just think, in a few more years there will be dozens of 'mini-me' posters writing sarcastic notes like this one. Scary isn't it!

KMGH = Kiss My Greedy Hinney

jm - just a suggestion - change dream sequence to nightmare sequence....

Well I have spent the past day reading quite a few of the 172 pages in this thread, well at least the pages provided by this forum. I can truly see the frustration that many of these members must feel.

I do feel a bit envious when people mention seeing sporting events in HD, that is really all I want out of life, well at least for now.

After reading for several hours, I am still not sure how I would go about implementing HD out here in Highlands Ranch.
- is there anyone in the area that would maybe let me take a peek at what they have going on with their setup? I always learn better through diagrams (made school a bit tough)

The other question I have is about CBS on dishnetwork. Is there anywhere that consolidates this info? I do have dish and would be interested in figuring out how to make this happen. I of course search dish's pathetic website and did not find any thing helpful.

I enjoyed reading all your posts and hopefully will be around until this mess gets resolved.

Cheers
Scott

And what's this I hear about a riot in front of KMGH's studio? How's that going?

Originally posted by samcvic
Well I have spent the past day reading quite a few of the 172 pages in this thread........
I do feel a bit envious when people mention seeing sporting events in HD, that is really all I want out of life, well at least for now.
Cheers
Scott

And what's this I hear about a riot in front of KMGH's studio? How's that going?

Scott
First of all, let me welcome you on board our little group. Don't let all my bad comments deter you, there is still hope, and there is still an effort by our group to help out. There are also a LOT of really frustrated members here too. :mad:

As for reading 172 pages of the thread, I don't envy you that's for sure, and as for "seeing sporting events in HD, that is really all I want out of life", you really need to get out more and get a life. If you don't you may become as bad as some of us.

All that being said, if you really want some help getting HD up and running you came to the right place. I am in Boulder and use VERY UNCONVENTIONAL hardware to get my HD so I am not much help. There are a lot of folks here that I am sure will help you. Be sure to visit the web site for some help too.

As for the thing at KMGH tomorrow, I don't know. I haven't seen any postings from the organizer for a few days. I am sure he would like some help if you could make it, it would also be a great place to hook up and learn all the details you need to get your setup going.

Welcome aboard.

Hey JohnJr. et al. What about KMGH tomorrow, are the plans canceled or is it still happening????

Samcvic,

Here is the Dish CBS-HD info.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/locals/cbshd/index.shtml

It may take several calls to get a CSR who knows how to activate it, but keep trying!!

Hey JohnJr. et al. What about KMGH tomorrow, are the plans canceled or is it still happening???? I'm out of commission for tomorrow. My kids brought home some uninvited microscopic guests and they've taken to squatting in my sinuses.

Originally posted by samcvic
After reading for several hours, I am still not sure how I would go about implementing HD out here in Highlands Ranch.
- is there anyone in the area that would maybe let me take a peek at what they have going on with their setup? I always learn better through diagrams (made school a bit tough)
I'm in Highlands Ranch, behind the Whole Foods at University and Highlands Ranch Parkway. I'm just over the crest of the hill and don't really have line of sight to downtown. However, with just a Radio Shack Double-Bow Tie antenna on top of the entertainment center, I get CBS, PBS, ABC, & Fox. ABC isn't very strong though and tends to break up frequently. I tried to watch Alias the other night but it was unpleasant and I switched to my DirecTiVo. CSI is awesome. As were the NFL playoff games on CBS.

I use a Zenith DTV-1080 which has a decent tuner but apparently the following generation (HD-520) is even better.

I imagine my signal strength would improve if I ran cable up to my attic and put an antenna up there, but since I get CBS and Fox well, I haven't bothered to do that yet. Maybe for Sunday I'll try and get ABC in better :)

Thats the spirit weldon..it's no big deal, it's only tv right?! ;)

Fellas,

I am doing my standard paranoia KMGH, before the Super Bowl check during tonights hi-def ABC schedule. Is everybody getting no sound on 17.1 but sound on 17.2. If this doesn't get squared away and I miss the game on Sunday in HD.........that would be very disappointing.

Doug

A couple nights ago I wasnt getting any sound on 17.1 but it seems to be ok for me tonight.

The sound problem must be in the new 5.1 equipment. Cuts off on local commercials etc.....then on again during the show. However, was off for almost the entire According to Jim. (Not that I was watching According to Jim, I of course was watching the Avs game, as any good Denverite would be doing)

Doug

Sounds fine on 17 here too.

Jeff

To the other AVSer that was at the group forum tonight that Echostar put on, please PM or email me. I want to bounce something off of you to see if you got the same impression that I did about what happened tonight and what it was all about.

I've been reading this thread in its various incarnations for a couple of years now. Like many lurkers here, I'm definitely in apathy mode with respect to the tower debacle.

Nevertheless, I thought I'd provide some links that a few of you might find useful. There might one or two people living more than a stone's throw away from KMGH's paper clip/coat hanger transmitter who can actually get channel 17, if only they had the right antenna setup.

The first link generates a neighborhood map with exact angles to all of your area's television transmitters. After you enter your address and get the list of stations, be sure to click on the "MAP" button:

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/address.asp


This second site will tell you everything you ever wanted to know about antennas (actually it was far more than I ever wanted to know), including comments on some antennas being marketed as "HDTV" antennas:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html


Finally, this particular page might be especially useful to some of us. The article goes into intimate detail on how one should "stack" two antennas together, either vertically or horizontally, for increased gain (on the order of 3db). I had no idea how sensitive antenna placement was!

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html


Good luck folks!

mhampton,
Thanks for the info.

The antenna links are interesting. I've included them on the Denver DTV site links page. The map link has some errors though. It has KRMA as coming from Lookout, instead of Republic & KDEN as not being on the air yet (which it is).

For the Latest Info, I try to keep the Denver DTV link pretty up-to-date, so that's a good source to check for current events.

Hey there Ernie,

Thanks for the info. I didn't catch the KRMA error on the antennaweb.org map. Still, I like the way they calculate the exact angle to each tower for the entered address. It could be useful for fine-tuning highly directional antennas, and since all of the stations I care about are bunched together at Republic Plaza, I really need to know only one angle to get KRMA and the rest.

Changing the subject...

I noticed a mildly interesting phenomenon out here in the southeast suburbs. There seems to have been a run on Radio Shack 40" UHF antennas. I had to wait until a shipment arrived yesterday to get one. Could it be that HDTV is getting popular here, despite the tower mess?

If so, it could bring some pressure to bear on KMGH. I know my family's viewing habits have changed over the past year since HDTV programming has become more widespread. More and more we seem to avoid ABC, and until recently NBC, in favor of HDTV broadcasts from HBO and CBS. There's such a huge difference in picture quality.

Thanks again Ernie. Many of us do appreciate the time you put into your site. You seem to have the most up-to-date information on HDTV in the Denver area.

Mark

I am helping a friend get his HD setup working in order to receive 17 and the SB. Well, he bought a CM 4228 8-way bow tie and we put it up on my house temporarily replacing my CM 4248 large Yagi. ( I have a DTC-100.)Worked well getting all channels, with just slightly lower signal strength, but was not as directionally sensitive as my Yagi. I do get 17 fairly reliably.

He then tried the CM 4228 on his house, a couple blocks away and higher than me with fewer trees. Everything worked except 17. He then brought his receiver to my house (a Hughes E86) and we got all channels except 17. The Hughes reported 100% on all channels and next to nothing on 17. It seems strange that a receiver would report 100% on any signal around here.

Anyway, he went back to SoundTrack to get a different receiver to try. He brought a Samsung T151, I think, back to my house and we tried it. Voila! All channels locked including 17.

The point of this is that the receiver obviously makes some difference in reception of poor signals when nothing else changes. All I can say is that any of you who have a Hughes E86 (and its equivalent branded versions) might try a different receiver temporarily to see if you can get 17.

Thanks KMGH for making us go through all these hoops just to receive your crummy signal! KMGH: Keep Modifying to Get Hd

Thanks everyone for the comments. I appreciate the link to the HD info on dish's site. Do the majority of you use a dish and a receiver that allows you to pick up ota signals through your additional antenna or do you use something different?

Weldon, that sounds encouraging. I am at Lucent and Highlands Ranch Pkwy, things shouldn't be too much different, but from what I've read, there seems to be a lot of intangibles when it comes to picking up a good HD Signal. Do you use a dish as well? or cable?

Originally posted by samcvic
Weldon, that sounds encouraging. I am at Lucent and Highlands Ranch Pkwy, things shouldn't be too much different, but from what I've read, there seems to be a lot of intangibles when it comes to picking up a good HD Signal. Do you use a dish as well? or cable?
Yeah, it's hard to know what will work or not. I'm definitely behind the crest of a hill from downtown and it still works OK here.

I use DirecTV with a Sony T-60 receiver (DirecTiVo). The only way to watch TV as far as I'm concerned. I'll be first in line to buy the High-Def DirecTiVo they were showing at CES the other week (if I can beat the other AVS'ers) :)

live in littleton in Grant Ranch about 20 to 25 mi from downtown. I have tried terk 55, terk35, silver sensor with no success. can not put one of those large ant on my roof and my attic is to small to go up there. I can probably get away with something that does not look like a plane on my roof, what i was thinking was the CM stealth 3010 because of its looks i can get it up with out causing any problems, but will it get the job done. could please use your input on if this thing is any good.

One of our resident members uses the 3010 with pretty good luck. Maybe he (Hot aka Mike) will weigh in.

On an OT note, anybody in the area have any interest in a Denon 3801 a/v receiver? I'm thinking of selling it because I've got "upgradeitis" (actually I just want something with PL II which this one doesnt have because PL II will work better for playback from my HD-VCR that isnt 5.1 capable). I've had it a year and a half and it's in fine shape. I dont feel like messing around with ebay or whatever at the moment. I'd like to get maybe 400.00 out of it which is half of what I paid.

Originally posted by samcvic
I do feel a bit envious when people mention seeing sporting events in HD, that is really all I want out of life, well at least for now.

The other question I have is about CBS on dishnetwork. Is there anywhere that consolidates this info?I realize that you already have Dishnetwork, but if you want sports in HDTV, DirecTV may be a better option right now. In Denver, CBS is probably the easiest HDTV station to get OTA (from Highlands Ranch you shouldn't have too much trouble), and DirecTV carries HDNet. Currently, on HDNet you'll find a couple of NHL games a week, including some Avalanche games in HD. If you're into football, DirecTV plans to carry HD NFL games next year as part of the Direct Ticket package.

If you are looking for sports in HD, I wouldn't make a decision yet. ESPN-HD will be up in a couple months and nobody knows who will carry it yet. If past is any indiciation, it might be on Dish but not DirectTV.

Brian

Just so new folks don't read that and get an opinion - it could also be on DirecTv and not Dish. Bottom line, it hasn't been announced who will carry ESPN-HD - but I would have to think both will carry it.

ESPN-HD? I hadn't heard about that yet. I wonder how much they will charge to add that to your subscription. Probably more than the 6.99 a month for discovery HD. Speaking of which, has anybody had a chance to check that out?

DP1- does the 3801 have the ability to do 6.1 or 7.1 I remember reading about it a while back but can't recall.

One other comment: Ernie, I checked out your Denver DTV site and loved it, I was telling my wife all about it and got the usual response. I am sure you guys are all used to that.

I have tried terk 55, terk35, silver sensor with no success. can not put one of those large ant on my roof and my attic is to small to go up there.The Terks are really crappy. I'd definitely go with a 'Real' antenna, like a ChannelMaster or Winegard. Here's a link to Stark. They carry all the best brands and are really reasonable.
Stark Electronics (http://www.starkelectronic.com/) Try the CM 3021 , It's a killer antenna, not too big and the price is certainly right!

Also you mention you cannot put up an antenna on your roof. You do mean YOU can't? Not that you think the HOA will not let you. The FCC has made law that says No Homeownerw Assoc. can stop you from putting an antenna or satellite dish on your property. Here's a link to the FCC ruling.
FCC Antenna Ruling (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html)

Ernie,

Hadn't looked at the site for a while, great job keeping it all updated.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff!
Funny, we haven't heard from anybody who went to the KMGH protest this morning?
I hope they all didn't get... Arrested ;)

I thought only Martin Sheen and Jackson Browne ever got arrested at protests! :)

Jeff

c'mon guys, i need more info on this CM Stealth 3010. If anybody is using this antenna in littleton let me know your results. I have to find something that works in this type of antenna. All responses appreciated.

I did a channel scan, and am picking up CH 25, KDEN. Is this the shopping channel that is supposed to be on CH 29?

Originally posted by dsal
c'mon guys, i need more info on this CM Stealth 3010. If anybody is using this antenna in littleton let me know your results. I have to find something that works in this type of antenna. All responses appreciated. You may wish to do a search in this forum (and perhaps the HDTV hardware forum) for the 3010 and see what others are saying. This is not the biggest UHF antenna and antennas are one area where size does matter (in that bigger usually always means more gain). How much gain and directionality do you need? Unfortunately that's almost a crap shoot. Whatever the answer is it will likely be unique to your situation. If you have line of sight then you won't need much antenna. If you don't then you will need "more antenna". Whichever antenna you choose moving it left or right or up or down - by just inches - could have a HUGE impact on signal strength (or not, again depending on the terrain and geometry between your house and Republic Plaza). Whatever antenna you choose use low loss RG-6 cable from the antenna to the STB. Don't use any splitters while you're setting up and pointing the antenna (they can really have an impact).

I agree with Ernie on the CM 3021. I tried the terk tv55 and the silver sensor to no avail. Put the CM 3021 in the attic with great success except ch 17. I live in westminster. The 3021 really is not that big, and the upright bowtie type, so worked well for me in the attic.

Anybody had any success with the amplifiers radioshack sells on boosting signal for 17-1? They say they boost signal up to 30db but does that include digital signals??

Newbie lurker question here. Are the HD channels generally broadcasting all the time? Even when the programming is not HD?

I'm located just off of Hampden/Havana in SE Denver and I just put an RS VU-90 antenna on the roof aiming in the general direction of downtown (It's not bolted down yet, waiting to find a signal first). I connected it directly (using one 100' cable, no splitters, etc.) to the back of my integrated Mitsubishi WS-65869. My TV is not finding any of the channels (16,17,18,19,32,35). I understand this doesn't have a signal meter like the STB's do. If anybody has any input on adjusting an antenna with this TV please let me know.

Thanks for your help.

Well you should be able to get something zee. I just got back from another newbie lurkers house that just had a integrated Hitachi delivered and we were able to get 16, 18, 32 and 35 depending on antenna placement. We didnt have more time to try and really dial it in, or go for 17 though. Not sure what to tell you though in regards to getting them at your place other than recheck your connections and make sure via the setup menu that you're scanning for digital/ATSC channels as opposed to NTSC channels. Yes they do send out signals all the time even if not true HD.

And yes peppermint, amps like RS sells do pertain here because even though they're digital signals, they are in the UHF band. So UHF amps can help in certain situations.

Solved my own problem. My antenna was pointed 180 degrees in the opposite direction. I get 16, 18, 32, and 35 (no luck on ABC yet, but watching the SB somewhere else anyways). Maybe I'll be able to get it adjusted a little better this week.

Thanks for the fast response! The PBS demo loop is amazing. Wow! Can't wait for some prime time programming.

Now I just need to nail down a more solid installation. The antenna is sitting on the roof with a 40lb bag of kitty litter on top.

:D

zee,

Make sure you are pointing the antenna the proper way, -open end of the Yagi toward your target. Many people's first antenna try have it backward. Good luck,


Jeff

That was it exactly Jeff. Appreciate the assistance.

I'm looking through the RS catalog right now. So far I think I need a tripod mount, a 5' mast, a grounding block, grounding wire, and a ground rod. Anything else I may be missing?

A neighbor or AVS Forum member to help aim the antenna or watch your signal meter.

Aspirin -if you are trying for KMGH

Heating pad

Band aids

Beer - when you get done :)

OK. My antenna is maximally tweaked and I am now getting a rock solid 86-88% (CH 17) on my Dish 6000/8PSK , the beer is cold, the wings will be ready to pick up at 1pm, and a pile of beer-brauts are ready for the grill.

Now, my only hope is that ABC-17 does not "drop the ball" (pun intended) like FOX did last year during the Superbowl. No, I'm not looking forward to seeing that first close-up of John Madden in HDTV (cold shiver), BUT, I really hope that my guests and I don't end up having to watch the game in SD after all of this work. Last years broadcast was hideous, inexcusable really!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't screw it up this year! Are you listening KMGH???

My signal was 48-51 earlier this afternoon-not good. It is about 56-58 now.

I am not sure what tomorrow will bring.

Too bad KMGH won't let KRMA carry the game, so more folks could get it.

Didn't KRMA-DT carry the game once?

Originally posted by Phil T

Didn't KRMA-DT carry the game once?

KRMA got permission from the FCC to transmit a commercial signal (KCNC-CBS) for the SB two years ago in 2001. It took a tremendous amount of cooperation between KCNC and KRMA. The FCC also stated that it was the first time in FCC history that a Public TV station was given permission to broadcast a commercial signal. KRMA switched over and came on the air with CBS's broadcast about 3 hours before game time, and stayed with the feed until the game was over. Since KCNC did not have any conversion capabilities at the time, the raw CBS feed was 'bent piped' over the KRMA airwaves. Many of us still owe a debt of thanks to the two stations for their efforts.

KMGH has never shown any interest in cooperating with other stations to help out the public. Actually, it would have probably been less work for them just to move their own transmitter, but as we all know they really don't care if anyone watches, as long as they can make the claim to the FCC that they are on the air in some fashion.

Glad to see the cooperation among the AVS members in helping each other get set up for the game tomorrow. You guys set a great example for everyone. Too bad KMGH and KUSA are not as interested in HD as some of the people here in the forum.

Too bad KMGH and KUSA are not as interested in HD as some of the people here in the forum.

I haven't posted here in a while because of the frustration I have with KMGH regarding tomorrow's game. They knew a long time ago that they would have the opportunity to broadcast to at least the entire Denver metro area by moving to Republic plaza, but refused to even consider that. Now my frustration will extend to Monday Night Football next year. No MNF HD for north metro for at least 2.5 to 3 years. (best case scenario, LCG app approval in Feb 2004, (s)CARE appeals til Feb 2005, tower construction til Feb 2006). nope, it isn't gonna happen, LCG II will not happen anytime in the foreseeable future.

Then, last week, I watched channel 7 news for last week and this week only hoping for an impossible KRMA co-broadcast announcement. What did I see? I saw Sean McLaughlin walking, talking, and laughing with Dave Workman of Soundtrack talking about how the Superbowl will help to sell a lot of big screen TV's. I was incensed with that irony...

Then they started bragging about how the game will be seen absolutely only on Channel 7. That's it.

The only thing that helps this situation is that I have no desire to see a Raider win in high definition, but I may have to see one in low def. it would be great to see the Raiders lose. Go BUCS!!!

Don

Well the KMGH thoughts expressed above have been pretty much along the lines of my thinking for quite awhile now. I concede that commercial stations are probably in hard times now (advertising revenue has to be down) but they are really being shortsighted. They have a tremendous opportunity to gain back lost viewers with HDTV yet shun it like it is the plague. I am (unfortunately) not leaving town as originally planned and will miss the Superbowl.....I refuse to watch KMGH (and KUSA) until management changes at these stations. Like I said a hundred pages ago - to hell with them.

Go Gruden!

Originally posted by dsal
c'mon guys, i need more info on this CM Stealth 3010. If anybody is using this antenna in littleton let me know your results. I have to find something that works in this type of antenna. All responses appreciated. DSAL
I live in Stanton Farms, just SW of Grant Ranch at Bowles and Kipling. I am using an Radio Shack U-75R UHF antenna ($21.99). I have it mounted on the roof with a 10' mast. I am able to get the 4 DT stations from Downtown with a signal strength of 50 to 85.

KUSA - NBC 75
KMGH - ABC 50
KRMA - PBS 75
KCNC - CBS 55

I notice I am getting no sound this morning on KMGH-DT. No problem on any other digital channel.

Anybody else?

Not a good way to start Superbowl Sunday :(

I just called the "news tip" line to report it. It was the only phone that would answer. I hope it is not just me. Dish 6000 & 8VSB.

Originally posted by Phil T
I notice I am getting no sound this morning on KMGH-DT. No problem on any other digital channel.

Anybody else?

Not a good way to start Superbowl Sunday :(

happening for me as well. I noticed this occurred last Sunday monring as well on KMGH. Not quite as concerning then....

Wouldn't that be the ultimate insult to the KMGH viewer(s) in Denver if they had technical difficulties and no sound for the Super Bowl. For the sake of the 20 of you in south Denver expecting to watch today, I sure hope this is just a temporary problem.

Just for fun (and perhaps an argument or two at the LCG hearings next month), how many forum members are watching the game on KMGH-DT and/or hosting a party today? It might be fun to take a head count here. I also know there will be a few using 'other' sources too.

Originally posted by JMartinko
...how many forum members are watching the game on KMGH-DT and/or hosting a party today? It might be fun to take a head count here.
put me down for one party - hopefully in HD (via KMGH-DT).

I could be faking myself out here, but I think my signal strength is much better this morning. I'm showing about the same strength as CBS on my Zenith DTV-1080 w/ RS dbl-bow tie. I moved the antenna to the optimal spot on top of the TV (didn't run RG-6 to the attic yet). Of course, the optimal spot also turns out to be the ugliest, which is why it only gets moved while watching OTA HDTV.

No sound though :(

I am just planning a small family get together, a total of six people. I am planning to watch 17-1, but if the sound isn't fixed, I guess it will be analog.

I suggest others call the news room line (303) 832-0162 or the main number (303) 832-7777 and push the option for news tip.

Since there are only 20 of us who can get the signal, we better let them know they have a problem!!!!

Continuing to read this thread on a regular basis, I am once again hoping to receive channel 17.

Looking at Denver TV Stations on the AVS forum, it looks like several others who live by me are receiving channel 17. (I live in the Lowry area, by Alameda & Quebec).

I have a Panasonic Tuner and a monolithic Radio Shack antenna in my attic (VU-190XR which has a 160" boom!). I also have my first attempt--a smaller 80" boom Radio Schack (15-2135) thrown in disgust into the corner. With both antennas, I receive the other digital channels without challenge. One of the larger issues is the lack of a signal meter on the Panasonic (hard to fine tune when you don't have a gauge of whether your getting a stronger signal with the adjustments you're making or moving in the wrong direction).

Would anyone who lives in the the area around me let me know whether they use an indoor, attic-mounted, or outdoor antenna? I would appreciate knowing whether I am spinning my wheels by adjusting the one in the attic. Has anyone in this area had significantly better luck with a different make antenna that I should consider? Anyone know of a signal meter so I am not adjusting blindly? BTW--We have clear line of sight to downtown.

A couple friends and a neighbor who have seen my home theater (including Sony's awesome VPL10WT) would really like to come over, but watching NTSC on a 100" screen looks PATHETIC. HDTV is sensational on our theater setup, but showing them demos from ch. 18 (though very cool) won't be a substitute for the game!

Thanks for your help.

Originally posted by JMartinko
It might be fun to take a head count here. I also know there will be a few using 'other' sources too.

This will be my first Super Bowl in HD. I'm having about 25 people over (about half are kids who will probably be watching Ice Age by the National Anthem! ;) ) Clearly, I will be using "other" sources.

Originally posted by Phil T
I suggest others call the news room line (303) 832-0162 or the main number (303) 832-7777 and push the option for news tip.

I called this in via the news room line. The guy who answered wasn't aware of the issue, but said he would "tell the guys in the back".

I did the same and he said he would "pass it on to the back".

Brian

I live near Florida and Monaco and have an outdoor roof antenna on a rotator. I get KMGH-DT and have since 1999 when Monday Night Football was in HDTV. My rotator has a remote control.

I just called KMGH again and was told that they are "working to fix it"

Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I have a feeling that I am going to have to mount an antenna outside. I was hoping (as I am sure my neighbors will be) to keep the antenna in the attic.

I am envious of the people living in areas like Littleton recieving 17 while living in Denver I am still stuck.

I'm having a SB HD party with about 15 people (some kids, but the half time and commercials are always fun). Hope the signal stays up. Haven't checked for sound, but will shortly and call if necessary.

Was helping a friend get his setup going for SB. Yesterday, despite lots of effort, could NOT get a strong enough signal even though he is only three blocks away. Trees and he doesn't get the strange multipath bounce that is apparantly allowing me to received 17.

Shame on you, KMGH, for putting many people through this.

No sound for me. I called and the guy said, "They are working on it." I asked if it would be fixed by the game and he said, "I don't know. I hope so."

Signal strength is the same as always. 40 - 42 on an DTC-100.

Fellas,

This is the same sound problems I was having this week during ABC's HD lineup. Why was I so paranoid.........I am only having 12 peolple over to root for the Bucs and see HDTV for the first time, and I have left it all in the hands of KMGH.

Same answer here for me from KMGH, only he added........but you can get sound, right ? on Channel 7 and 17.2, right ? So you will be able to watch the game, right ?

Very nice KMGH.....

Doug

I tried to call channel 7 to report no sound on th DT station. It went out last night during Mission Impossible. I was hoping that there would be sound this morning. NO DICE.
What a bummer.

Same here...called, as soon as the news desk guy answered he said - "We're working on it...hopefully it'll be on by game time"...before I said anything about it. They have the whole crew working on it, though, so...

The 15 people I'll have at my house here in the next hour aren't going to be excited about watching it on channel 7...that's for sure.

I have no sound too. The guy at the station was a little rude that I was asking him to fix it now. I have about 20 people coming to the house to watch the game. I have noticed in the past on CBS games that the HD feed was about 2-3 seconds ahead of the Dish broadcast. I will probably have to have a TV on the DISH network channel for sound and then the HD content on screen. Any other ideas I can do to get audio while still getting HD feed for video? Thanks. They picked a BAD BAD day to have NO AUDIO!!!!

It works now. Hopefully it will stay working trhoughout Superbowl!

Well finally we have sound but no HD on the pre-game. I guess my expectations were set to high!!!

HD won't cut in until the game starts. At least that isn't a KMGH problem. I called and passed congratulations and thanks along to the engineers.

I have also called to pass my congrats on to the "boys in the back". 5.1 encoder problem. To think, I had already made contingency plans to put my 13" with rabbit ears in the room for sound (that would have been classy and very high tech and also set HDTV penatration back about 10 years). I thought about using DirecTV, but the satellite delay would have made KDVR seem like they were in perfect lip sync. Thankfully, and hopefully.......I can take the 13" back to the basement......where it will never be used again.

GO BUCS !

Doug

Hi there,

My SB abc feed is not a HD fe
ed...???

Jacek