Is it just me, or is anyone else getting a really snowy picture today?

Well quit looking out your window and get back to the TV! :D:D

I think I may now be qualified for a job at KUSA or KMGH DTV PR departments. I have spent the entire day shoveling 'stuff' and I am getting pretty good at it. I could easily shovel some of their 'stuff' now too.

I sure am glad that KMGH is going to get their tower approval this spring...right now I'm down 27 points of signal strength to 44% on my Dish receiver and 47 on my hipix cards...just *barely* enough to pull them in with some breakups. Another point or 2 down and they'll be gone.

I wonder if when they're gone if I'll miss them or not...hmmm...

Originally posted by JMartinko
I think I may now be qualified for a job at KUSA or KMGH DTV PR departments. I have spent the entire day shoveling 'stuff' and I am getting pretty good at it. I could easily shovel some of their 'stuff' now too. Since you're pretty good at it please feel free to get in your 4WD SUV and start shoveling at my place.....I "only" have 3 to 4 feet (so far):eek:

I do have to say tho that the 'stuff' KMGH and KUSA dishes out is not white in color...it's more like a crappy brown color :)

Meanwhile I don't think I could get any local DT stations last evening (except for perhaps Faux which I did not try).

Geof
Thanks for the offer, but I think I have enough snow at my place to stay in practice.

Although I didn't watch anything on the locals except some snow news on KCNC, reception looked OK here except for KRMA which didn't want to lock. My antenna is off-pointed some due to the wind, and I have not tried to walk through the drifts on my back deck to fix it yet. I did have to clean my dishes several times last night to keep the signals coming in, even my 'Canadian connection' lost it due to the snow build up on the front of the feed. I keep my dishes low enough to be accessible from the ground, so it only takes a minute to clean them off when the weather is bad.

Actually, this is fun. I was beginning to think it had forgotten how to snow here. It is just like being a kid again too. I remember when I was a little kid here in Colorado it seemed like all the snows were up past my waist. Now, when I go outside, its just like then, the snow is up over my waist in spots. "(Or is that one of those '60's flashbacks again)?

Did anyone get stuck out in this, or was everyone here 'buried' at home in front of the HD set last night and today? Personally, I made the decision yesterday to use vacation time when my son got a snow day from Fairview. Later found out work was cancelled anyway. :D

Ya, gotta love this weather though, man we needed the water. Sure hope everyone is safe at home. Oh, and yes, it is still snowing here in Boulder too!
:cool:

I spent a whopping $20 bucks on a radio shack UHF antenna and spent a full day mounting and wiring that sucka with RG6 down to my basement. Although it is in my attic, I do have some higher homes obstructng my LOS to lower downtown. The PBS picture is amazing, but hey its PBS !! who watches that worthless jibberish !! CBS comes in pretty good when its a true 16:9 HD standard programming, but those seem few and far between... The rest of the channels are marginal at best...

I'm pretty sure the antenna is aimed optimally, I guess my question is...

Should I drop the dime on a better antenna, or just wait on the LGC tower {currently orbitting the third moon of Jupiter}.

Gmoney303 {HD rookie}
Centennial {Smokey Hill Rd and Himalaya}

Welcome Gmoney!

The best thing you could do is mount your antenna on a mast on top of your house. A better antenna will help. Channel Master and Winegard are good USA brands. Televes and Blake are reported to be the best. I have a CM 4248 on my roof and can even get 17, barely.

Probably be good to wait till the snow melts before tackling the roof project though. If you don't know, HOAs cannot keep you from putting an antenna on your roof to receive TV signals OTA.

Good luck.

Gmoney
Welcome to the thread. Yes, it is probably better to invest in a better antenna if your reception is marginal. You do realize, I hope, that KUSA does not broadcast anything in HD, just digital, so none of their programming is worth watching for its visual beauty. I won't comment on any other reason to watch KUSA, but if you like self promoting commercials, you will love their channel.

Don't think I would bother to go out to Radio Shaft today though. I use the 6 foot UHF only from Radio Shaft and reception is fine here in Boulder except for KMGH which rumor has it, is on the air. I use other sources for ABC. I know others here have tried some 'fringe antennas' with good results, so I would just wait until some of them check in and give you some help on what to try.

To my surprise, I found that I still can receive the local channels from DirecTV even though I can get none of the rest of the satellite channels. Yes, my dish is nearly covered in snow, but I am too chicken to climb on the roof to clean it right now. Never thought about this much snow when it was installed on a warm day. I thought I would have to rely on my big rooftop Yagi to get locals when the dish was covered.

Can anyone explain why this works? I can only assume spot beam transmission of locals is a lot stronger than a normal satellite channel signal.

Thanks for the quick responces !! Negative on the antenna mast.. My HOA would have me lined up for execution before I could even get it alighned.

Yea.. I know what you mean with the KUSA thing, espcially the KUSA -DTV crap in the gray bar. Is there somewhere locally to purchase a better quality antenna {after we dig out !!} or just order online...??

Hey I heard somewhere that some of the NCAA tourney will be in HD ?? Anyone else hear anything on that. If we could get them to mount an HD camara on the tip of Tomahawk cruise missiles.. We'll have some real entrtainment tonight !!!

Your HOA would have to take on the US government to prevent you from putting an OTA antenna up on your roof. They can ask Saddam if it's worth it :)

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
To my surprise, I found that I still can receive the local channels from DirecTV even though I can get none of the rest of the satellite channels. Yes, my dish is nearly covered in snow, but I am too chicken to climb on the roof to clean it right now. Never thought about this much snow when it was installed on a warm day. I thought I would have to rely on my big rooftop Yagi to get locals when the dish was covered.

Can anyone explain why this works? I can only assume spot beam transmission of locals is a lot stronger than a normal satellite channel signal.

I found the same thing -- the only channels I could get from DirecTV (or EVu) were the Denver locals. At least my dishes are at ground level so I was able to dust them off frequently yesterday.

Yup - DirecTv was "snowed out" here yesterday morning also (except for the locals). Got on the ladder and brushed off the dish and it's been fine since. Suprisingly, though, my BEV went out for a while Monday night during the rain (I knew that 55-60 signal strength on 82 would have some problems), but it never went out during the snow!

Did I hear ya'll got some snow?

I'm stuck in Dallas on a shoot and can't get home. My fiancee is at our
house in Golden with over 5-1/2 feet of snow with drifts over the top of the windows and NO electricity! She's gettin' a bit nervous.

Bad time for a road-trip :(

Snow report from Thornton:

26" = 5 hours of shoveling

Local reception during storm
KRMA-DT 18 Signal strength 88 but no feed
KCNC-DT 35 Signal strength dropped to 65 from 82; no breakups
KUSA-DT 16 No HD yet, signal strength at 94; audio very low volume
KDVR-DT 32 Signal strength 74
KMGH-DT 17 Signal strength 0; still waiting for answer from FCC

Directv all 3 sats Signal strength 0 after chuck of cement snow fell from roof, hit the LNB arm and broke it off. Now might be the time to switch to Dish or BEV depending on what happens with ESPN-HD and the 3 HD-Net channels.

Frederico Pena's circus tent: R.I.P.


Don

Haven't checked my signal strengths yet today. I just need to rest for awhile....46" at my place. My drive is clean but the road isn't......:(

Snow update from the Santella Production Home Office...
72"!!!!! But it has just stopped snowing and the power's back!

Anybody got a extra shovel?

Originally posted by santellavision
Snow update from the Santella Production Home Office...
72"!!!!! But it has just stopped snowing and the power's back!

Anybody got a extra shovel? Good to hear they got the power restored. Isn't 72" ridiculous? We needed the moisture and that's good but let's hope for a slow thaw or there will be some flooding.

Donyoop,
That's a bummer about the LNB.....DirecTv is going to have a lot of defections if they don't offer ESPN HD. I always thought the DIA tent looked stupid (I guess I'm in the minority) and now they're going to have to fix the damn ugly thing. I wonder how much that will cost.

Is anyone else put off by the stupid news alert on the bottom on the screen (on the analog channels at least).

Let me get this straight KCNC.....we're all stuck at home and have likely ALL heard about the storm (seeing as how your news morons have been force feeding us all day long) yet you insist of now screwing up the only real chance we have to forget about the friggen storm by putting the damn news alert on the bottom of the screen. Have you ever considered that your going way overboard with this? Are you really going to keep scrolling the news alerts all evening and then have a 1 hour newscast at 10? ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! :mad:

Sorry, I had to vent. The newroom number is not answering and their mailbox is full....KCNC engineering please pass this to your GM....

Anybody having any luck receiving Dish's 61.5 sat? I get a big fat zero on the signal. I'm hoping it's just the storm and not the dish being knocked off line.
Thanks,

I was able to get HDTV on the 61.5 sat after clearing snow off the dish.

About 35" - 40". It's hard to tell, because of the wind, I have bare spots and 5'-6' drifts. And of course there's one across my front door and two across my driveway. Doesn't matter anyway -- I don't know when Elbert County will get to our neighborhood so there is no where to go yet.

BTW, outside of one dish brush off on Wed. AM (I have ground level dishes), never lost DirecTV, DirecWay, or OTA. I guess the wind was good for something!

Does anyone have a Dish500 setup for catching Nimiq 1 & 2 working in the Denver area? I've read a lot about the virtue of using two dishes, but I'd rather just use the Dish500.

I'm going to try it soon, probably over the weekend. My dish is 20". I'm also interested to see if anybody got it to work. Right now I receive Nimiq 1 at 74 with 0 skew.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Does anyone have a Dish500 setup for catching Nimiq 1 & 2 working in the Denver area? I've read a lot about the virtue of using two dishes, but I'd rather just use the Dish500.

I was going to give it a try, even found an old Dish 500, but when I turned my dish to get 82, I only got a signal strength of between 55-62. So I decided not to right now - figuring that the Dish 500 setup would reduce the strength even more.

What are you getting on 82?

I'm using a 21" dish with dual LNB for 110/119, and an 18" single LNB dish for 61.5. I get very stable reception on both using a SW21 switch (well, except for during the latest 'wet-snow' storm).

Curious what switch setup would be required for this setup using separate dishes for 110 and 119 plus the 61.5? Also, would the improved reception offset having 3 dishes plus an OTA antenna on my roof?

I emailed KCNC regarding their HDTV coverage of the NCAA tournament. Wendy Holmes replied stating that they plan on showing the HDTV games on their digital channel 35. Today, Friday March, 21 regardless what is showing on their analog channel!!!

Originally posted by mknoebel
I was going to give it a try, even found an old Dish 500, but when I turned my dish to get 82, I only got a signal strength of between 55-62. So I decided not to right now - figuring that the Dish 500 setup would reduce the strength even more.

What are you getting on 82?

I don't have a Dish500 dish yet.

And, um, a friend I know, yeah, a friend, gets mid 70s with the standard 18" ExpressVu dish pointed at 91. He (my friend that is) hasn't tried pointing to 82 yet since he doesn't have a 6000 at this point.

Well I've seen 3 or 4 reports on 82 from this area and all of them have been from the mid 50's to mid 60's depending on the transponder. And thats usually been using a Dish500 pointed straight up at 82, nevermind splitting the difference on settings to include 91 in the mix.

If you really want both birds you're going to be marginal at best (not much room for error with weather) on 82 with a Dish500 (even if it was only looking at 82). I'd say your best and most reliable bet would be to add a second dish for 82 and make it a 24" while you're at it. Then just tie the 2 dishes lnb outputs together with a Dish SW21 switch.

Originally posted by jcardona
I emailed KCNC regarding their HDTV coverage of the NCAA tournament. Wendy Holmes replied stating that they plan on showing the HDTV games on their digital channel 35. Today, Friday March, 21 regardless what is showing on their analog channel!!!

I just called KCNC to compliment them on their doing the above - not all CBS affiliates around the country are doing this, so they deserve our thanks about this - I encourage all of you to let them know we appreciate it when they get it right - as opposed to kusa, faux, and not even to mention the dreaded *!@# ( you know who I'm talking about :mad: )

I don't think it was KCNC's decision. I read in the programming forum here that all CBS O&O stations (of which Denver is one) were expected to show the NCAA in HDTV regardless of what was on their analog station.

Not to belittle KCNC in any way - they've clearly been the most viewer-friendly commercial station in town.

Originally posted by DP1
Well I've seen 3 or 4 reports on 82 from this area and all of them have been from the mid 50's to mid 60's depending on the transponder. And thats usually been using a Dish500 pointed straight up at 82, nevermind splitting the difference on settings to include 91 in the mix.

If you really want both birds you're going to be marginal at best (not much room for error with weather) on 82 with a Dish500 (even if it was only looking at 82). I'd say your best and most reliable bet would be to add a second dish for 82 and make it a 24" while you're at it. Then just tie the 2 dishes lnb outputs together with a Dish SW21 switch.

Thanks Dan.

That's not the answer I was looking for, but I was afraid that's what I was going to hear. Don't get me wrong -- I have no problem with 3 dishes on the side of the house (already have the triple-sat DirecTV and the 18" EVu pointed at 91); the wife might not agree. I've got to get working on her before we get the income tax refund :)

Originally posted by dr_mal
I don't think it was KCNC's decision. I read in the programming forum here that all CBS O&O stations (of which Denver is one) were expected to show the NCAA in HDTV regardless of what was on their analog station.



When I spoke with Wendy at KCNC she did tell me than some of the impetus had indeed come from the national hq, but she believes that it was up to the stations to put what they wanted on the hd channel. I asked her to also pass the compliment along to national as well. There were a number of posts from around the country from folks whose local CBS affiliate were simulcasting the war coverage on both the analog and digital channels (maybe not CBS O&O's, but what difference would/should that make?). Anyway, part of my point was that it was an opportunity to give a station/network positive feedback and I think they need to hear that kind of thing (like we all do) every once in a while. :)

Been stuck in Texas also this week, but just got word that after plowing, my driveway is blocked by 7 or 8 feet of snow. Can't wait to fly home now and deal with that.

Jeff

As a follow-up on the Dish500 for both 82 and 91 I went ahead and played with that some and didnt lose as many points as I might have thought. Maybe an average of 3 or 4 points per transponder. Hard to say though because I dont remember my highest settings on 91 before. Plus the readings tend to change a little depending on the time of day. I still see some in the low 70's on 91 (though some quite a bit lower) and the lowest one on 82 at about 56-57% (some still in the low 60's). I also have a cheap $10 Radio Shack inline DBS amp installed because I have a stupidly long cable run.

Oh, and the skew setting for our neck of the woods on a Dish500 for those 2 birds is about 69 or 70.

Thanks Dan -- you've given me new hope. I think I'll swap out the current 18" for a new Dish500.

Now if only that income tax refund would arrive...

No HDTV for the Oscar's!!! What is the contact number at KMGH?

Well, 10 minutes into the Oscars and no HD on KMGH! Does no one work there on weekends who knows how to throw the switch? :(

I got through to master control and they say they are "working on it". "Larry" said they were not set up for live HD and he is trying to "patch around for it. He said they have not done live HD for "about two years".

I wonder how they did the Super Bowl???

Now it look like they got the picture but no sound.....

Here we go again. Before the Super Bowl they had a problem with a decoder. Looks like no sound for the Oscars... What is the number for KMGH? I need to make a call.

FYI, they finally got it figured out after about 45 min. No Dolby though.

I called the newsroom because no one is answering the switchboard on weekends.

Maybe we should start writing ABC!!

Originally posted by Phil T
"Larry" said they were not set up for live HD and he is trying to "patch around for it. He said they have not done live HD for "about two years".

I wonder how they did the Super Bowl???


There weren't any problems on the feed I watched except for one nasty audio drop out and pop early in the show. 5.1 sound was good, not great, certainly a notch below CBS and the Grammys. I thought the picture was a bit soft, but I think that is a phenomenon of the 720p to 1080i conversion I have to do since I don't have a 720p television. Whatever the problems, they were local.

Not sure what the KMGH guys are talking about when they say they haven't done anything live. I thought I heard rumors they broadcast the Super Bowl. What is the difference between that and the nightly programming as far as they are concerned except they don't need to time shift??? Inserting their commercials??? It seems like you would just insert the plug from the national feed instead of the tape deck and then run with it like normal. Why would that bother the pass through??? Maybe they aren't willing to pass through a feed unless they can include their commercials.

Here is a thought on his comment, maybe what he meant was that even KMGH is now admitting their 'toy transmitter' to the parking lot and the "3 guys at Circuit City" isn't really a broadcast.

Oh yes, don't forget to thank them for the great job when you travel to all of the Jeffco hearings.

Was frustrated trying to view the Oscars in HDTV last night. Finally switched over to KMGH's regular broadcast. Could have been the snow. Was able to view the Super Bowl, which was outstanding.

Used to have an attic antenna, but was completely useless. Switched to a portable (14" high x 14" deep x 5"wide) and great (non amplified) Gemini Antenna. We are now able to receive all OTH HDTV broadcasts in the Denver area. What is so nice about this antenna is it can be positioned at different locations in your home, if additional signal strength is required. This antenna may not work for everyone, but solved our very frustrating "signal strength" issues. Highly recommended and worth a try. We live in the Lakewood area around Alameda and Garrison, approximately 10 miles from downtown Denver.

Anyone heard if DirecrTV subscribers will be receiving ESPNHD? ESPNHD is scheduled to go live on March 30

I recently installed DirectTv and I really enjoy watching Sporting events in High Definition. The NCAA's this weekend were great, the local ABC station could learn a lot from CBS. I am able to pick up ABC,CBS,NBC and PBS with signals at 86 and above.

Now my dilemma,

I live in Highlands Ranch and just got a letter from the Home Owners Association stating that my dish which is mounted on my fence will need to be moved. I had the dish professionally installed and they informed me that they placed it in the most obsure(they could have mounted it on the roof) place they could while still getting the proper angle to the respective satelites. I have looked at the latest FCC ruling regarding Satelite Dishes and Antenna's. It looked to me that the FCC ruling is pretty clear regarding the regulation that Homeowners Associations and Landlords can have on these items. Has anyone else had any similar requests to move their equipment due to it "not having adequate screening" If you have any success or failure regarding this matter it would be appreciated to hear about it.

Thanks,

Ron

Ron,

Your homeowners association is totally wrong. You are correct to say that the Satellite Home Viewers Act totally gives you the rights to obtain satellite television in a reasonable manner and that your covenants have nothing to do with it. There is a size restriction and a number of antennas that fall under this, but I think the size limitation is 39 inches in diameter and unless you have a really big dish, you are within those limitations.

The reason I know so much about this? My homeowners association out here on the Eastern Edge of Centennial told me the same thing. I went to the FCC, printed out the latest SHVA, took it to the meeting, and basically told them where they could put their regulations. You should too.

Cheers

JaMa

is anyone having a problem with cbs and pbs feed has been very sporatic after the storm?? just wondering up here in longmont

Nothing seems to have changed for me in Longmont - near Skyline HS. CBS continues to be really susceptible to local interference such as a wireless phone used in my house (signal strength jumps wildly from 0 to 71) and also local small plane traffic, while NBC and FOX remain fairly solid. (NBC is considerably higher signal strength here (65%) and I use a different antenna for FOX giving 93% signal strength). Haven't been able to pull in PBS without losing CBS, so can't say about PBS here. CBS was flawless for me most evenings, including Monday night..

Ron, respond to them with the FCC text. If they decide to pursue it further, you have the law on your side.

Ron,

I am on the board of my HOA - and you do need to print out the FCC and Congress rules on this. You should also point out to them that you are allowed to put up a OTA antenna also and that if threatened by them with legal action you might be tempted to put one of them up also.

You will also need to tell them that you will sue to get back any legal costs and will go after herassment penantalites should they try legal action. I believe you need to first try being nice and present the facts - but if they start to make threats to you then you do need to let them know what they have to loose if they persist. (Finding a good HOA lawyer would also be a good idea.) I am in Fort Collins and as such I am afraid the ones I can recommend are either here or in Boulder

Reggie

I'm not sure when they started, but KRMA is now simulcasting. I just watched Teletubbies on ch 18-1 (no retorts req'd). It was stretched to 16x9.

Jim Schoedler,
Will all simulcasting that does not have an alternative version (widescreen SD, HD) be stretched to a widescreen 480p?

I just got Pete McNally's LCG update. Anyone else get it?

Here is the email that I got from KRMA yesterday regarding simulcasting. I am sure they would appreciate feedback. I haven't watched it, but if it a stretched screen like KMGH, I will definitely complain.


Tomorrow (3/26) we'll be running a test of our simulcast capability.

"On Wednesday March 26 between the hours of 8AM and 3PM KRMA-DT will be airing a test of our simulcast capability. During that
time normal KRMA Channel 6 programming, which originates in standard definition digital, will be upconverted to HD and
broadcast on KRMA-DT."

I guess I should have read my email first this morning. KRMA simulcasting is just for today until 3 and yes Dennis, it looks to be all stretched.

Here is the LCG2 email:
From: Pete McNally [pete@grinnellgroup.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 8:34 PM

Subject: LCG Update

Greetings,

We have a firm hearing date of April 9th at 6:00 pm. Subsequent hearing dates will be set soon – the County is working to schedule large blocks of time. As of this time, the County is recommending denial of the application because they do not feel LCG has adequately ruled out the Bear Creek site. In all other areas, their staff report states we comply with their regulations and plans. We obviously will be working this issue. Our legal counsel has advised us that their plans only require consideration of alternative sites for new facilities located outside of existing antenna farms. Additionally the Mt. Morrison is not feasible because of the limitations the Board of County Commissioners required regarding building size. Further, no improvements will occur on Lookout Mountain without our approval. If forced to locate our DTV elsewhere, we would do so only temporarily. Once the dual transmission period ends, we would convert the Lookout Mountain sites to digital. If necessary, this could be done with no modifications outside of the building.

We greatly appreciate any support you can provide on this issue and the application as a whole. In particular, your testimony at the April 9th or subsequent hearings would be great. Also, any letters to the commissioners would be helpful. The contact information is available at the web page: www.lakecedarproject.com (http://www.lakecedarproject.com).

Please write or call with any questions.


Sincerely,

Peter McNally, Principal
The Grinnell Group
www.grinnellgroup.com I don't take this as very negative. The issue of disproving the suitability of alternate sites came up inthe BCDC BCC hearings. I mentioned in my own testimony that it was never satisfactorily stated whether or not it was required to consider and defend against moving to another site. The point is still ambiguous and it looks like LCG is going to push the point as hard as needed if JeffCo backs them into a corner. It should be interesting to watch! At least it will get cleared up.

A clarification to Pete's letter. This is the planning commission staff that is recommending denial to the planning commission.

I don't think that it will be very hard to shoot down, as the reduced size of the building in Bear Creek's app was required by the county commissioners. That effectively makes it impossible for the LCG stations to broadcast from Mt. Morrison.

But, if LCG2 does get denied by the county, we're not going to get full power HD here in Denver until the mandated switchover in 2006 or 2008 or 2054, or whenever it finally happens.

Sure would have been nice if KMGH had purchased some support from us. There aren't going to be many people fully supporting this application while there are going to be a whole lot of people opposing it. No Catholic or PBS support could make a big difference. I hope not, but it could certainly happen.

Originally posted by markdl
Sure would have been nice if KMGH had purchased some support from us. Or at least not try to feed us a line of **** 'n bull with their response letter. I am still seething over the contents of that letter and have realized they are not to be trusted. I wonder about KUSA as well and since we've no experience with KTDV <?> (Ch20) who knows. In my mind the only station worth supporting is KCNC but unfortunately it's all or none. So be it, I am likely going to sit this one out because of KMGH as I would just as soon see them lose their license (I am definitely not going to take their crap and support them at the same time).

I'm starting to wonder whether I care if Denver ever gets HDTV OTA. As soon as I get the income tax refund, I'm ordering an ExpressVu 6000 so I should be enjoying ABC and NBC in HDTV before the planning commission even finishes their hearings.

I feel bad for KCNC, really I do, but they chose their bedfellows and now they're suffering because of them.

And I don't care for the OTA HDTV has to be free argument at this point. Anyone with an HDTV set looking to buy an ATSC tuner might as well buy one with an integrated satellite HDTV receiver as well. They aren't really any more expensive than standalone ATSC receivers now. By the time they're cheap enough that the masses care, maybe LCG will have worked itself out. Or the deadline will come and go, and we'll be stuck with 5 towers on Lookout broadcasting digital because CARE didn't want them to be replaced with one.

Everyone loses except the Canadian government who gets to collect GST on our monthly programming to BEV.

Bah.

Can anyone recommend an ISF calibrator in the Denver area? I am considering having my Pioneer RPTV calibrated. Thanks.

Originally posted by dr_mal
I'm starting to wonder whether I care if Denver ever gets HDTV OTA. I think that pretty much sums it up for me. It's only TV. Since I've started ignoring the local stations I've found out I can live without them.

Just to add to all the 'positive' feedback here, :rolleyes: I thought I would throw in my own $0.02. As one of the folks here that also gets a lot of HD from 'other' sources, and also one who has a good shot at getting Cheyenne, I too am not sure I care anymore if Denver ever gets HD. Until or unless KUSA goes HD and KMGH actually transmits beyond their 'parking lot', I plan to 'care' (pardon the obvious pun) about as much as they do.

I am really tired of fighting this battle after 3 years, and still knowing that for all the fighting I do, KUSA and KMGH and KTVD(?) don't want to be on the air anyway. It seems that there are only about 40 of us in the entire area (I guess we represent the 'three guys at Circuit City' that Steve Martin mentioned at the Oscars). If they don't care why should I? How can they even expect to transition overnight on Lookout in 2006 unless they broadcast low power from somewhere else (that means you KMGH and KUSA)? Do they just plan to make the announcement they are going digital and expect the public to run out and buy new TV's all in the same weekend? If you want public support for a transition, you have to give people both DTV and Analog TV over a long enough time for them to make the transition. Apparently KMGH and KUSA don't see the need to provide a signal to help this transition. I guess given all that, I just don't see the need to support their application.

I am very upset that KCNC may get screwed in this whole deal, but I have never been and still am not convinced that KUSA and KMGH really care if they ever get on the air. Given the attitude at KMGH I will never support them in any way. I am just sick of this entire mess. Denver, thanks to Jeffco and the lack of effort from our stations, will obviously be the last city on the air in the country. The rest of the country is watching it and getting excited by it, based upon HD TV sales this year. KUSA and KMGH can go ahead and save all the money they want, I won't watch them anyway. I'll bet Deb Carney and the (S)CARE folks are laughing their bu**s off at this one. Their entire plan was to delay the inevitable as long as possible.
:mad:

Crap, John. Does that mean by not supporting LCG we'll be (shudder) on the same side as CARE? I don't want that to happen. I'll take solace in the fact that BECAUSE of CARE, in 10 years, instead of one tower on Lookout, there'll be six. There. Now I feel better.

Yup. Just what they wanted. CARE loves the towers!

Let's not be all dooom-n-gloom, guys. Remember, we will be able to watch PBS in HDTV.

Actually, when they go live on the new Mt Morrison tower, it will still be with the 1kw xmitter, just with a greater ERP.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Let's not be all dooom-n-gloom, guys. Remember, we will be able to watch PBS in HDTV.

Actually, when they go live on the new Mt Morrison tower, it will still be with the 1kw xmitter, just with a greater ERP. Huh? Where have you heard KRMA plans to use a 1KW transmitter on the Morrison facility? That would be quite strange.

As to supporting SCARE by not supporting LCG2 I don't think that's quite true. I wouldn't lose any sleep if the status quo remains on Lookout for the next 50 years - If SCARE is so foolish to fight LCG2 with the risk winning that battle but keeping what they have for the next 50 years I admit I wouldn't mind at all if that happened. That's another reason I think I'm just going to sit on the sidelines and watch this whole mess play out.

I do sympathize with SCARE on one aspect though - I do believe some stations have lied (misled) to them (& to the county), and would do so again if it suited their interests (and that's why I am not willing to support KMGH).

Oh Canada........

Originally posted by dr_mal
Crap, John. Does that mean by not supporting LCG we'll be (shudder) on the same side as CARE? I don't want that to happen. I'll take solace in the fact that BECAUSE of CARE, in 10 years, instead of one tower on Lookout, there'll be six. There. Now I feel better.

Yep, that sounds like what is happening. Six towers instead of one. Hey, they asked for it. What will also be funny is when the transition gets closer and HD viewers are all watching KRMA, and KWGN and the network viewers wanting more than CBS HD will be tuning in to see Colorado Springs and Cheyenne stations. It will be funny to watch KUSA and KMGH viewership drop off in the ratings once the HD side is included. I wonder if KUSA will still claim to be "Denver's leader" when they are fifth in the ratings??

It is ironic that I now agree with at least one of the many arguments (S)CARE has used over the years to fight the towers, that is that especially KUSA and KMGH are just way too arrogant and don't deserve to be treated fairly. It appears to be the only really sound argument they have made in ten years.

Originally posted by Geof

I do sympathize with SCARE on one aspect though - I do believe some stations have lied (misled) to them (& to the county), and would do so again if it suited their interests (and that's why I am not willing to support KMGH).

Oh Canada........
Just because KMGH appears to have lied to the FCC what makes you think they would like to Jeffco???
:D
(Tongue firmly planted in cheek for that one)

Another fun thing will be watching all the HOA's (OK it's fun for me since I do not belong to one) going ballistic as huge UHF antennas start popping up all over Jeffco and other local areas. Boy are there going to be some great battles when the HOA's find out they can't prevent this from happening. Perhaps we will see HOA's fighting with (S)CARE folks in the streets, and then both turning and chasing the KUSA and KMGH camera crews at the same time.
:D

(BTW, one advantage of 'being Canadian' is access to the CBC news as well as BBCWorld News. They provide a perspective on things in the Mideast not usually available on network news. Those who are able to bump up to C-Band and MPEG receivers also have access to about 30-40 Mideast and European stations, including stations from Iraq, Kuwait, Egypt, Dubai, etc. Maybe in reality the KUSA, KMGH, and (S)CARE will be simply doing their part to provide a better informed Denver public. I think that is required in their station license, although I am not sure that is the method the FCC had in mind.)

Originally posted by Geof
Huh? Where have you heard KRMA plans to use a 1KW transmitter on the Morrison facility? From Jim Schoedler, Dir of Eng. at KRMA. I called him a couple of weeks ago and he mentioned that they still would not be full power when the new tower went live. They'd be using the same 1kw xmitter they are now using on RP. They currently put out about 7-8 kw ERP from RP (their antenna is half as tall as KCNC's and KUSA's). They would do alot better with the same transmitter on the new Mt Morrison tower.

Perhaps Jim could chime in if he's monitoring.

Originally posted by RonAuger
From Jim Schoedler, Dir of Eng. at KRMA. I called him a couple of weeks ago and he mentioned that they still would not be full power when the new tower went live. They'd be using the same 1kw xmitter they are now using on RP. They currently put out about 7-8 kw ERP from RP (their antenna is half as tall as KCNC's and KUSA's). They would do alot better with the same transmitter on the new Mt Morrison tower.

Perhaps Jim could chime in if he's monitoring. Yes, I would be very interested in knowing their predicted ERP and how long that setup would be in place before they get their "real" transmitter.

Right now I can get Faux even though my UHF antenna is pointed towards downtown. That works because of the "high power" signal Faux is broadcasting. I do not want to be in a position where my attic antenna pointed towards downtown won't receive KRMA from Morrison because of low signal level.

Will this madness ever stop?

Originally posted by Geof

Will this madness ever stop?

Apparently not!
:mad:

Originally posted by RonAuger
From Jim Schoedler, Dir of Eng. at KRMA. I called him a couple of weeks ago and he mentioned that they still would not be full power when the new tower went live. They'd be using the same 1kw xmitter they are now using on RP. They currently put out about 7-8 kw ERP from RP (their antenna is half as tall as KCNC's and KUSA's). They would do alot better with the same transmitter on the new Mt Morrison tower.

Perhaps Jim could chime in if he's monitoring.

Ron is correct about my comments. The real issue for reception is the signal level you receive at your antenna. Because KRMA-DT can use a higher gain transmit antenna on Mt. Morrison, our effective radiated power (ERP) will increase from approxmiately 7 kW to nearly 70 kW just by moving. In reception terms, the received signal level (RSL) at most locations will go up by 10dB, a healthy margin. When you combine the increase in ERP with the higher elevation of Mt. Morrison, our coverage will extend to the fringes of Colorado Springs to the south and well into Wyoming on the north. I plan to post coverage maps, both current and proposed, on our website, www.rmpbs.org as time allows.

We do plan to increase transmitter power output when funding permits. However, over the next year we are committed to installing DTV transmitters in Grand Junction and Colorado Springs/Pueblo and to building the tower and antennas on Mt. Morrison. This is a substantial project load that will keep our engineers busy all year.

While I'm responding, let me say a few words about the KRMA-DT simulcast tests. Yesterday and today we were checking the hardware to insure we could meet the FCC deadline of April 1. Stretching the picture to fill a 16:9 screen is one option we have available. We thought that animated children's shows like Clifford and also programs like Sesame Street and Barney looked reasonably good when stretched and I read similar comments here. Other programs don't look as good stretched. We're also aware that many viewers can make this choice for themselves at home (Question: does anyone make a HD display that can't stretch 4:3 programs to 16:9?).

Our hardware gives us two ways to transmit a 4:3 image in DTV. One of them we tested intermittently today; the other isn't working right now and we're actively trying to fix it. One way or the other on Friday we'll simulcast in 4:3 with side panels to see how that looks. I'll monitor the forum for your comments.

Finally let me mention that in large part because of AVS Forum comments, we'll be continuing to transmit the PBS and Rocky Mountain PBS HD loops during the 50% of the day that we're not required to simulcast.

Jim Schoedler

Jim,

Thanks for the info.

I have a 61" 4x3 set that give me a 55" HD 16x9 image. I much prefer 4x3 programming with the side panels because it allow me to fill my screen, when I switch to SD mode, with my Dish 6000 reciever.

A stretched 16x9 picture looks terrible on my set.

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler
Ron is correct about my comments. The real issue for reception is the signal level you receive at your antenna. Because KRMA-DT can use a higher gain transmit antenna on Mt. Morrison, our effective radiated power (ERP) will increase from approxmiately 7 kW to nearly 70 kW just by moving. In reception terms, the received signal level (RSL) at most locations will go up by 10dB, a healthy margin. When you combine the increase in ERP with the higher elevation of Mt. Morrison, our coverage will extend to the fringes of Colorado Springs to the south and well into Wyoming on the north. I plan to post coverage maps, both current and proposed, on our website, www.rmpbs.org as time allows.Yes, you make sense saying it's RSL that matters. Your coverage area may extend to the Springs and Wyoming but it will likely require high gain antennas to permit reception at these locales. You did not mention coverage to the west and I suspect this will be highly susceptible to location and terrain and will likely be problematic for many residents. I appreciate that funding is an issue but I find it disappointing that the plan to use a 1KW transmitter is brought out after KRMA received approval (and support from folks in Ft Collins, etc) rather than beforehand. While I don't "blame" any one for this I am nonetheless disappointed by this recent revelation.We do plan to increase transmitter power output when funding permits. However, over the next year we are committed to installing DTV transmitters in Grand Junction and Colorado Springs/Pueblo and to building the tower and antennas on Mt. Morrison. This is a substantial project load that will keep our engineers busy all year.Sounds like we can expect to wait at least a year (after Morrison is completed) before you get a higher power transmitter??....that's 2 years from now so anyone who is expecting (hoping) to put up a small indoor antenna hoping to receive KRMA-DT may still have a bit of a wait.

It looks like I may wrong in saying KRMA will beat the big three networks in broadcasting high power H/DTV.

Perhaps we need to understand what transmitters KCNC, KUSA, KMGH and KTDV are planning on installing if LCG2 is approved. IF KMGH moves their toy transmitter to Lookout it might still reach their parking lot but this is hardly what we should be expecting. Likewise if KUSA and KCNC plan on using their small transmitters just what is it we are supposed to be supporting??????

Jim,

Thanks for chiming in here and setting the record straight. While we may not like the answer, I think we all appreciate your willingness to come here and "talk" to us. (Unlike some other stations *cough* KMGH *cough*)

Regarding simulcasting: my HDTV, when using its digital input, can only display the signal as received. HOWEVER, my DTC-100 set-top box has a bunch of options for controlling how the picture is sent to the TV. I'd prefer that any programming on your DTV signal is sent in the original aspect ratio, whether that's 1.33:1, 16:9, or 2.35:1. My preference is for grey bars on the sides rather than black -- I have a nasty burned-in picture on my screen from watching SDTV with black bars on the sides for the first year I had the set.

Finally, last week when I had a snow day (woo hoo!:)) I was finally able to catch an HD "Spirit of Colorado". I loved it. Is it possible to simulcast Spirit of Colorado (and any other locally-produced HDTV)? I don't get many chances to stay at home during the day, and a HDTiVo seems to be a ways off :D

Thanks again.

Originally posted by Geof
...so anyone who is expecting (hoping) to put up a small indoor antenna hoping to receive KRMA-DT may still have a bit of a wait.


Geof,

I think you'll be interested in the coverage maps when they're posted. Yes, viewers in Cheyenne may need an outdoor antenna, but they would need one now to receive Ch 6 analog off-air. More relevant perhaps is the situation in Denver and other front range cities, which I'll come back to.

Our knowledge of DTV coverage is still evolving, but currently there are three RSL values to consider. The FCC has specified 41 dBu as the minimum level of coverage over a city of license. At this level an outdoor antenna is likely going to be required. Some engineers who have been making DTV measurements for a while think 55 dBu is the minimum needed to support indoor antenna use. But since building construction and terrain variables can result in extra attenation in specific locations, there's an argument for maximizing power to achieve even more saturated coverage. Currently we use 80 dBu as that value. At 80 dBu we believe virtually eveyone should be able to receive the signal indoors.

From Mt. Morrison with ~70 kW ERP, KRMA-DT's 80 dBu coverage will extend over all of Denver and it's suburbs and out to cities like Longmont and Castle Rock. That's 80 dBu or better! We think that's quite good.

In Fort Collins we expect RSLs between 55 and 80 dBu meaning most viewers will be able to receive us indoors. That's not bad either. Only as we get into areas where our analog coverage currently starts to drop off does the predicted DTV level fall into the 41-55 dBu range.

This is with a 1kW transmitter and high gain transmit antenna.

There's some evidence to show that increasing power too much can cause reception to worsen in urban areas. Why? Because the level and number of reflections also increases. If the reflections increase beyond the ability of the receiver chip to reject them, the signal will be lost. That's one reason why we're somewhat cautious about increasing power indiscriminately. It would be good to have some experience with the new site at Mt. Morrison first.

Jim Schoedler

Originally posted by dr_mal

-- I have a nasty burned-in picture on my screen from watching SDTV with black bars on the sides for the first year I had the set.

Is it possible to simulcast Spirit of Colorado (and any other locally-produced HDTV)?

We're very aware of the problem with burn-in. Some of our plasma displays at the station are severely burned because of black borders around the active picture area. That's one reason we were testing a stretched picture -- to help viewers avoid the problem. On the other hand, if sets are capable of stretching internally (sounds like not all are), we could let the viewer make the choice. Your comments are a help.

As to locally-produced HDTV material, our plan is to simulcast the HD version at the same time the SD copy airs on CH 6. It won't happen on day 1 of the simulcast, but we're actively working toward that goal. We're glad to hear you like the program in HD.

We also want to simulcast national PBS programs in HD (when they're available) in the correct time slot, i.e. when the SD version airs on CH 6. Because PBS doesn't have a mountain time zone feed, we need a server to time-shift the program. We'll be looking for one at the NAB exhibits in two weeks.

Thanks to everyone on the forum for your comments.

Jim Schoedler

Thanks for the info Jim. It is informative and interesting. I am sure you guys will do what you can. Once you get on the air from Morrison reception reports will filter in and you can compare those to your predictions.

I seem to recall you (and most of the Denver stations) were authorized to 1MW (I haven't looked this up in a while so I may be remembering this wrong). There's obviously quite a difference between 1KW and 1MW but it sounds like you may never need 1MW. Have you decided what size transmitter you will ultimately end up with or are you going to wait to see how the 1KW coverage area predictions work out?

I am curious in part because part of the SCARE concern is that the LCG stations will be authorized for 1MW transmitters whereas their current transmitters are (in the neighborhood of) 300-400KW. If the digital RSL values are still quite good with a 1KW transmitter perhaps the LCG stations will never need 1MW transmitters....perhaps the LCG stations can help allay concerns if they don't need the big monsters......???

Getting back to the KRMA situation - I currently have a modest UHF antenna mounted in the attic and pointed towards downtown. In my situation I'd estimate it's somewhere between 30-40 degrees between Morrison and downtown so I will be well off the peak gain portion of the antenna for signal emanating from Morrison. Reception of KRMA-DT would appear at this time to be questionable using the existing antenna without repointing. It will be interesting to see how it ultimately works out but I am obviously hoping I will be able to pick up CH 18 even with my antenna pointed towards downtown and I suspect there will be many others who do not want to fool with a rotor or antenna switching, etc....

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler
We're very aware of the problem with burn-in. Some of our plasma displays at the station are severely burned because of black borders around the active picture area. That's one reason we were testing a stretched picture -- to help viewers avoid the problem. On the other hand, if sets are capable of stretching internally (sounds like not all are), we could let the viewer make the choice. Your comments are a help. I was under the impression, from comments here and in my own research when purchasing the 2 HDTV displays and STBs I have, that interlaced signals can be manipulated by the STB/display and progressive signals can not. When KDVR-DT had gear that had failed, they were sending 480i on ch 32 and my set could stretch and zoom. Once their gear was fixed and they were sending 480p, my set could not manipulate it. The current KUSA-DT and KCNC-DT (with SD programming) signal can not be manipulated by me either. The same thing happens when I change my DVD player back and forth from interlace to progressive. I thought this was the way all HDTV display devices work (except for maybe older devices, say 5+ years)

Guys (any girls lurking?), can anyone out there stretch KUSA-DT's current (non-HDTV) signal? Dan (DP1), care to concur/correct me?

Ron
AFAIK, you have it right, at least for all of the equipment I am familiar with.

Originally posted by RonAuger
I was under the impression, from comments here and in my own research when purchasing the 2 HDTV displays and STBs I have, that interlaced signals can be manipulated by the STB/display and progressive signals can not. That's certainly true in my case Ron, and I believe this is the rule rather than the exception.

Burn in should not be a problem for CRT's if the contrast and black levels are turned down (and out of the "torch" mode). Unfortunately that is difficult if you can't control room lighting effectively (and it takes awhile to get used to it as well). If your set is ISF cal'd then it should not be a major concern (unless you watch a lot of programming with side or letterbox bars).

Personally I prefer stretched over 4x3 with black bars that I cannot eliminate (I watch all 4x3 material stretched anyways) but I can deal with it either way (if a program is worth watching I'll watch it regardless of whether you stretch it or not).

Speaking of ISF cal'ing - Sigma957 asked about this a few posts back. I had Cinema Setup redo my ISF cal after a board was replaced in my set (it had screwed up grey scale along with color temp and color and tint settings). He did a great job and I was (and still am) happy with the job. He had the right gear to do the job and the patience and temperament to do it properly. That said, I would suggest that you ask if he (or any other calibrator) has experience with your particular set as each model has their own peculiarities.

Well it's pretty much true that most equipment cant stretch/zoom a 4x3 1080i signal because the equipment just "assumes" that everything thats in 1080i is inherently 16x9. Thats quite an oversight by the manufacturers because as we all know there's to be many years of that type of programming.

That said, the Dish 6000 receiver does have the ability to stretch/zoom all 1080i signals so if one has that particular receiver they can do it. Even though I have that capability I never use it though because I cant stand to watch a picture thats manipulated in that way and I dont watch enough 4x3 programming anyway to worry about burn in. I have no evidence of it on my set after just about 3 years.

I'm strongly against stations stretching or zooming their 4x3 signal "for me" because once they do that I cant undo it. I still say they should leave them unaltered. Yes, that means people that dont have something like the Dish 6000 would have to switch their output to s-video to then be able to stretch or zoom the signal with their tv for example if they're hell bent against the side bars but I dont see the big problem with that because it's not like the signal was "true" HD to begin with and even if they lose a bit of PQ that way, it's still going to come through as a better picture on run-of-the-mill programming than they've ever had before dtv anyway. Again, thats not a perfect solution either I realize but it beats them warping the picture and then me just having to "deal with it".

Jim:

Thanks for all the good information. Makes me glad that I contribute to KRMA for your digital build up.

I also cannot stretch any signal that is sent as 1080i or 480p. My HDTV (RCA F38310) shows KUSA, KCNC and KMGH and KDVR as a 16:9 signal even though what we see is a 4:3 picture with bars on the sides (KMGH is an exception because they transmit a stretched picture all the time on their 17-1 channel. I personally can't stand to watch it. When KMGH has an HD program, you can always tell when they go to a local feed because the stretch comes back. They also send a normal 4:3 SD signal on their 17-2 channel, which could be stretched.).

I prefer to see programs in their OAR, no matter what it is. I suppose for kids cartoons that a stretched picture would be OK because I wouldn't be watching it anyway.

In regard to indoor antennas, I live 11 miles SE of your transmitter. I can receive your current signal easily indoors with a RS Double Bow Tie small antenna. I have a large YAGI on my roof just to get KMGH.

I suggested this before and would recommend (after you buy your time shift server) that you rebroadcast all HD in the evening tailored to the mountain time zone. KCET in LA does this and it would greatly increase your number of HD viewers. You could even repeat programs more often than PBS transmits them. This would be more enjoyable than just watching the HD loop.

For now, I can always watch the normal SD programming on Channel 6 and would think simulcasting would be less important that having multiple options to see the excellent PBS HD programming, especially in the evening.

The more I think about, the more I realize I was a little confused. My STB allows me to stretch, distort, and zoom any native 4:3 signal. But as soon as I get a 16:9 image, it can't do anything to it. My vote is still for 4:3 material to be shown 4:3 with grey bars. I firmly believe that I wouldn't have the burn-in if my set had put grey bars on the sides when it was displaying 4:3 material. While my set isn't ISF calibrated, I have adjusted the contrast, brightness, etc with the Video Essentials DVD.

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler
We're also aware that many viewers can make this choice for themselves at home (Question: does anyone make a HD display that can't stretch 4:3 programs to 16:9?).

My Sony LCD projector allows me to stretch a HDTV (1080i) signal. I generally don't use the feature since I hate stretched pictures but it can do it. BTW, I don't know of any STB or display that an "unstretch" a 16:9 signal.

Personally, I prefer a 4:3 OAR signal to be sent unaltered with black sidebars.

Michael

Originally posted by dr_mal
While my set isn't ISF calibrated, I have adjusted the contrast, brightness, etc with the Video Essentials DVD. That should be more than adequate - unfortunately most TV mfgr's send their sets out with the brightness set way too high and burn in is much more likely with factory settings. I agree that grey sidebars are better than black bars but damn I just can't get used to that.

One thing that might help is if KRMA could [slightly] vary the position of the 4x3 signal within the 16x9 frame. I don't mean in real time during a program but if the position could be changed slightly from program to program then the edges between the picture and the sidebars would not occur always in the same spot on the CRT and that should help somewhat. I am not sure this would help plasma displays but I think in that case a video scaler makes sense.

Thanks Jim.

It'll be interesting how this all plays out. For your information, I'm at 2nd and Sheridan. My rooftop antenna is pointed downtown, and Lookout is almost 180 degrees the other way. On most days I can receive the Fox signal from Lookout marginally (enough signal to lock, but not much more) because I'm pointing the other way. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but Fox's transmitter is significantly more powerful than 1kW. I may not be able to receive your signal with my antenna pointing downtown to get the rest of the stations.

As for the format, while I can't stretch a 480p or 1080i signal with my television, I can stretch and/or zoom it with my Dish 6000 receiver, and with my hipix computer card receivers. I would MUCH prefer to see all material in it OAR, and let me deal with stretching if I want to. I can't stand to watch KMGH's stretched signal. Gray bars or black bars don't matter much to me, as I can add gray bars to the sides if I want to with my receiver.

From: Debbie Kerley [Debbie_Kerley@KRMA.pbs.org]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:24 AM
Subject: Fwd: HD Test Message

On Friday March 28 between 8AM and 3PM we will continue testing our simulcast capability using Standard Definition video encoded with side panels. There's a chance that some receivers may lose signal during the switch between SD and HD transmission. If that occurs, turning off and on the receiver should enable it to reacquire the signal.

Please let us know if you've watched these tests and send any comments you have to engineering@rmpbs.org.I'll be able to check and respond with an opinion today since I work out of my house.

Me too. I just got the message in my email. I will respond.

Here is the email I sent to KRMA regarding their simulcast:

Greetings!

I just checked your test simulcast signal on channel 18. I was watching the Yankee Builder program. It is working well and I have a couple of observations:

1. I love the black bars. My HDTV will only let me have gray as the default on SD signals and I much prefer black, such as you get when watching DVDs, for example. I am not worried at all about burn in as I watch HD 16:9 much more than anything else anyway.

2. The color is somewhat richer and the details sharper than my Channel 6 signal which I get from DirecTV. I have no VHF antenna so I can't compare with your normal OTA signal on channel 6.

3. The picture itself is slightly wider (about an inch or so on my 38" TV). I really don't know which size is accurate, but I could not detect any distortion on either picture. I guess I would prefer the slightly wider digital version.

4. The audio level is fine, but it is slightly lower than the same on channel 6 from satellite. No big deal. (FYI, KUSA's volume is much lower on their digital signal and KMGH's HD audio volume (local) is screwed up and comes only from the center and left channel when using Dolby Pro Logic.)

As I stated in a post on AVSForum, I would much prefer you folks record and offer HD programming in the evening rather than just simulcasts. KCET does this in LA and I am sure they get much better interest in HD programming by repeating HD programs often and in the evening. Much better than the HD loop.

Good luck. You are clearly leading the way in DTV in Denver. I wil continue to support you with my money!

I'm getting a blue line down the left side of the picture on DT18. I do not see this on CH 6.

For those in the So. Denver area hoping to maybe get KRDO-DT (ABC) from the Spgs -- I just got an email from Charlie Upton, Dir. of Eng. They will not be going live on March 31 as previously scheduled. They don't have a firm on-air date, but when they do go live, it will be low-power (< 5kw) with no forecast when they'll go full power.

D@mn you KMGH!!!
I don't want to learn the words to "Oh! Canada!"

Originally posted by RonAuger

D@mn you KMGH!!!
I don't want to learn the words to "Oh! Canada!"
Sorry Ron, better start studying the words. I pretty sure that 'one finger salute' we got from KMGH means they aren't going to budge. The English version is pretty easy, but the French version takes some time and practice.

Ron, I used the Canadian solution a couple of years back and really enjoyed doing that as nothing else was available here except 18 because 17 didn't transmit anything in HD for a time there. I know most of you will respond that they dont' now either, but that is for another day and another post.

Jeff

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler
(Question: does anyone make a HD display that can't stretch 4:3 programs to 16:9?).


Finally let me mention that in large part because of AVS Forum comments, we'll be continuing to transmit the PBS and Rocky Mountain PBS HD loops during the 50% of the day that we're not required to simulcast.

Jim Schoedler

My hitachi tv will do what it calls "16:9 zoom" which stretches a 4:3 9-1, 4-1, 6-1 etc. signal to fill the screen. Looks pretty lousy tho, which brings up the issue that there are a vareity of different stretch modes/methods out there and if one looked decent (like some of the toshiba's supposedly do) then if a station sent that instead of a 4:3 I might prefer it to the side bars.
Then again, this whole OAR issue is a sticky wicket, and the satellite content providers etc. have sure screwed that up, so it is probably best not to have yet another source monkeying around with the aspect ratio/stretch thing even if they did it relatively well (which krma probably would).


As far as the whole simulcast issue, my vote would be to have as much true hd content shown on 6-1 as possible since most (all?) people who can get 6-1 can also get 6 if they want the 'regular' krma programming. So if a given program is in hd, then by all means simulcast on 6 and 6-1. But if not, within FCC guidlines, substitute an hd program on 6-1. And I would also vote for keeping some of the more visually dramatic loop segments (i.e. the eye-popping 'aerials' over Sicily and such) maybe shown late at night just to keep things in perspective and to show to friends as examples of what hd is capable of.

Why is the NCAA tournament not in HD on CBS in the Denver market? It shows that it should be...

My mistake. Tomorrow there will be one game....

The KRMA SD programming on 18-1 looked good this morning (Saturday) on my Dish 6000. I still like the HD loops on 80-3 in the evening.

Can KRMA provide the Sprit of Colorado HD programming to PBS to add to or update the national loops? I bet other areas of the country would really enjoy the program.

BTW - KMGH is now mapping to 17-2 ond 17-3 on my 6000. Whats up with that?

Phil - same here for 17-2 and 17-3. That showed up last night. They are obviously doing something at the station, but who knows what...

I think KMGH-DT has an Automated Tracking System to measure viewership. Whenever somebody locks on with a signal strength of 70% or better on their tuner, it goes up one click.

A friend of mine with a digital tuner just moved in next door to KMGH and thats why it went up from 17-2 to 17-3. But he's looking for yet another tuner this weekend so if he can get a good deal on an open box unit look for 17-4 by the middle of next week.

Originally posted by markdl
Phil - same here for 17-2 and 17-3. That showed up last night. They are obviously doing something at the station, but who knows what... They're moving 17-1 to Republic.
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Oh, wait. According to Cindy V. apoproval should happen shortly so they're getting ready to move to Lookout....
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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The real anwswer is that station is a joke. A sick one but a joke nonetheless.

LOL!!!

Currently enjoying "The KID" in HDTV and Dolby Digital 5.1 on KMGH. Using a DirectTV system with an OTH antenna. Viewing the channel on 7-1. Receiving consistant 51 signal strength.

Viewed the NCAA Basketball game between Texas and Michigan State earlier today on KCNC channel 4-1. Received consistant 95 to a 100 signal strength on that broadcast.

I think ESPN began their HD broadcast tonight with the Rangers vs. Angels. I have Directv and assumed they are carrying ESPN HD, but no luck.

Does anybody know if Directv will carry ESPN HD, and if so, when?? Very disappointing they are not right now. Is Dish broadcasting it?? What about Discovery HD. Are these only going to be broadcast by Dish??

I take it you haven't been to the AVS Forum->HDTV->HDTV Programming area in the last couple of weeks. All your answers will be found there. In brief:

ESPN-HD is not available to anyone in Colorado right now.

DirecTV and Dish are expected to start carrying it within about a year.

DiscoveryHD is only on Dish right now. (at least for those of us in CO)

RKYMTN,

Flip over to the programming section of this forum and you will find lots of info about ESPN-HD. Short version - DirecTv and Dish do not have it today, but both should soon. Not so sure about Discovery. It's only on Dish right now.

RKYMTN

and HDnet is not on Dish

Reggie

Originally posted by rmaestas
Currently enjoying "The KID" in HDTV and Dolby Digital 5.1 on KMGH. Using a DirectTV system with an OTH antenna. Viewing the channel on 7-1. Receiving consistant 51 signal strength.

Viewed the NCAA Basketball game between Texas and Michigan State earlier today on KCNC channel 4-1. Received consistant 95 to a 100 signal strength on that broadcast.

Which DirectTV box are you using?

I just hooked up my Hughes E86 box to my rooftop antenna (previously I'd been using the internal tuner in my Mitsu) and every channel is reading 100% except KMGH (surprise) where it is able to acquire a signal reading of 6. Of course my Mitsu can't tune it either. I was mostly just looking for baseline information. Is the E86 a somewhat worthy instrument or are the signal readings fairly random?

I've heard I need a signal reading of at least 30 for any sort of reception.

I think the E86 is somewhat "worthy". Not like it'a a precision measuring device especially considering each application is different. I use a clone of that unit and I get various readings from the different channels. It's not like it's all or nothing.

I too get 100% on a couple channels, 16 and 18. But I also get like 75% for 35 and like 51% for 32 (since from my locale 32 is 90 degrees away from downtown where my antenna aims). And then I get like 37-44% on 17 alot of the time.

As you note, with that particular tuner you'll need a reading of 30% to even begin to see a picture usually and then if you can get a rock solid 37 or 44 you'll at least have a chance at glitch-free reception.

Basically what you'll want to do is play with antenna aiming for 17 alone at first to see if you even have a shot at the kind of numbers that are necessary. If you find a spot where you can get that, usually you'll still be ok for most if not all of the other channels even if it means you go from 100% on them now, down into the 60's or 70's...or whatever.. which would generally still be fine. You didnt mention whether you use an antenna amp or not and that too could help but once again every application is different. If the best you could do on 17 without one is say 24 or 27%, an amp could make just enough difference. But if the best you can do without one is say only in the teens, one likely wouldnt expect an amp to be the magic bullet.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's not like in my case for example, I tried to get the highest numbers I could on the majority of channels and then let 17 fall where it may. I did what I had to do to get 17 first (which took unbelieveaby specific aiming up, down, left or right) once I realized I had a shot at it from my house. And then from that point the others still just "worked" (even if the numbers on say 32 or 35 arent as high as they could otherwise be) because they're comparatively so much "higher" powered.

Tons of audio problems last night with KMGH. It consistently showed Dolby 5.1, but randomly would be unintelligble.

Jeff

I have a Samusung receiver. Ever since KMGH (17) started up with their 17-2 and 17-3 multicast, I have been getting sputtering (motorboat) audio on 17-2. I was wondering if anyone else was getting the same sort of audio? I switched to Shanghi Noon on 35 and had no problems. Owen whats his name is a real goof. Funny with good action sequences from Jackie Chan.

I previously posted having issues recently (last month or so) with getting Channel 17. Seems like during the day more problems (around 50, which will not get a signal on my Sony directv/OTA) receiver), at night much better and watchable. Anyone else recently seen issues getting a signal (I know most can get 0, but this question is for the "lucky" ones that can get a signal) less than what they used to?

Last night I was able to watch Alias and Dragnet with no issues. Strange thing, it was on 17.2, instead of 17.1 like it has been in the past. Anyone else see this and know what was going on? Some commercials were stretched, and some were in the 4:3 ratio. It was not just national vs local. Seems like someone at Channel 7 was tinkering with it as it went.

Thanks,
Todd

Just an FYI...got a message from Don Perez this morning that said their HD equipment vendor was in house installing the equipment today and that they (KUSA) should be passing the HD feed "soon - sometime in April."

This is interesting. I have always received 17 digital on 17-2 and 17-3. This has been the case for a year now. I have a DTC-100 receiver (inside my F38310 TV). Also, the signal strength does not change for me, even in the snow. It varies from 40-42 but does peak very occasionally at 46. And, I have never noticed any local commercials or programs on 17-2 that were not stretched, but I did not watch it last night as we also watched the Shanghi Noon picture on CBS. 17-3 always is a 480i 4:3 transmission for me.

Originally posted by markdl
Just an FYI...got a message from Don Perez this morning that said their HD equipment vendor was in house installing the equipment today and that they (KUSA) should be passing the HD feed "soon - sometime in April."

Cool. I should have NBC-HD from Seattle and Boston sometime in April.

Sorry, KUSA, too little too late. You're only 3 and a half years past your original deadline to go digital. I guess that's just not enough time to get the equipment installed :rolleyes:

I got some unfortunate news from Don Rooney at KWGN. All they have left to do is install their transmitter on their tower and they are good to go with KWGN-DT, but they are still awaiting approval from the FCC. But, because (s)CARE has filed suit against them, apparently the FCC is holding off on the approval. I asked him if letters to the FCC would help, and he said that most likely they wouldn't in this case. :( :mad:

Originally posted by markdl
I got some unfortunate news from Don Rooney at KWGN. All they have left to do is install their transmitter on their tower and they are good to go with KWGN-DT, but they are still awaiting approval from the FCC. But, because (s)CARE has filed suit against them, apparently the FCC is holding off on the approval.....

I don't buy this (S)CARE lawsuit BS and the FCC delay. According to the letter I got from the KMGH attorney, the local stations should be on the air any day now in HD from Lookout. They don't anticipate any delays. Why would (S)CARE bother to sue to stop KWGN from telecasting if they are not going to try to stop the LCG stations?
:D

In fact, I will be surprised if KUSA (yes, they are Denver's leading station according to their adds) bothers to set up their HD feeds from downtown, since they would have to move all that gear to Lookout in a few weeks anyway. BTW, did you know they were given an award by the Colorado Broadcasters as the 'station of the year'. I guess none of the Colorado Broadcaster members have HDTV's. My vote would have gone to KRMA or KCNC, but what do I know about great stations.
:D

Why heck, I am just holding my breath here in Boulder expecting to be receiving all the Denver stations from Lookout in a matter of weeks. I don't even understand why we even have this thread since the stations will all be up and running in a few weeks according to that KMGH lawyer.
:cool:

Holding my breath here in Boulder!
:rolleyes:

Now if only I could pick up that DTV signal that the FCC web pages say that KMGH is broadcasting from their tower on Lookout. I just don't understand WHY I don't receive that signal. Must be a bad connection somewhere. Anybody else getting that signal from Lookout? What am I doing wrong?
:confused:

Can I sue sCARE for making my HDTV equipment non-functional? If not for them, I'd have lots of FREE HDTV by now. Class action anyone?

No need for that suit dr_mal. I just got a note from the engineering staff at KUSA, replying to a question I sent them yesterday. Not only is their HD gear now in place, they will begin HD broadcasting this afternoon. In fact, they have replaced all the cameras in their studios with HD gear and tonight's "AWARD WINNING" 10 PM news will be televised in HD as well. Boy, talk about a fast response! No wonder they are the Colorado Broadcasters' Station of the Year"! Can't wait to see the news tonight!
Whoopie!
:D :D :D :D

PS
BTW, I take back all those bad things I have said about KUSA over the years. Whoopie!
:D

John, April Fools? :confused:

But, because (s)CARE has filed suit against them, apparently the FCC is holding off on the approval.


Flange lead time alert level going to high (red/orange)!


Don

Speaking of KUSA, have you seen the "Where's my HDTV"
link on their web site?

Interesting.

Maybe I should contact KMGH, and tell them to put them same link on their web site. This could go forward very quickly, seeing how "the tower approval" is right around the corner!

Rocky Mountain News headline:
KMGH BABY TRANSMITTER MOVES TO LOOKOUT or
DENVER DIGITAL TV LEADER KMGH MOVES TOY TRANSMITTER or
KMGH LEADS DIGITAL CONVERSION WITH TWO BLOCK RADIUS COVERAGE

I'm impressed with the "Where's my HDTV" pages on 9news.com. It's what they should've had up there for the last year at least.

At KMGH's website (thedenverchannel.com), if you click on the "Technology" button at the very bottom, you can get to a story about HDTV. They advertise HDTV as being much better than SDTV, using 1080 lines of resolution (hey -- isn't ABC 720p? :))

KCNC has the same old link to the Lake Cedar Group's website. They were the first to have it (I think), but if I was joe-just-got-an-HDTV-set-and-want-to-know-about-HDTV-on-CBS-sixpack, I wouldn't know to click on "Lake Cedar Group" to get information.

Dan, thanks for the response. In the next couple of weeks, I'll see what I can do with aiming a little better. I think I may try a bigger antenna first since I am not using a preamp yet.

Darn, I just checked that note I got from KUSA that said they would be broadcasting their first HD signals and the 10 PM news in HD today. Wouldn't you know, it seems it is dated April 1, 2009. Guess I will have to take back all my 'take backs'!

:D

John - BANNED!!! :D

Anyone have any word on the Cheyenne Stations and when they will be broadcasting in HDTV.

Clearly they are the only hope for those of use in Fort Collins to get HDTV.

Reggie

Originally posted by markdl
John - BANNED!!! :D

That would be doing us BOTH a favor! No such luck, you will have to continue to deal with my rants!
:cool:

Originally posted by A4Short
Anyone have any word on the Cheyenne Stations and when they will be broadcasting in HDTV.

Clearly they are the only hope for those of use in Fort Collins to get HDTV.

Reggie

Reggie,

From Joan Turner (KGWN GM) dated March 11, 2003.

Mike,
Finally an update. Our transmitter was delivered yesterday and is out at
the sight. We are still waiting on delivery of a delay unit. Since we are
in the mountain time zone, our CBS feed is delayed by one hour and we need this unit to transmit HDTV properly. Another month at the most??? This has been a long, ongoing process and I surely appreciate your interest and patience.


Haven't heard anything since then. Should be soon, though!

I found this press release while browsing a C-Band forum. It has been posted here that Bell Express View is, or will shortly be offering up to 12 HD channels. For those who, for one reason or another want an alternative, Star Choice made this announcement today. Obviously, I wouldn't recommend the Canadian alternatives (wink, wink) since it could cost our local stations, such as the 'almost ready for HDTV' KUSA, or the 'why don't you live in our parking lot, besides, we will be on the air from Lookout any day now' KMGH, some loyal viewers. After all, we all know how hard they are trying to get on the air. But, in the interest of maintaining a fully informed public, I felt compelled (actually I think I felt a bit evil--hee, hee) to post this interesting press release.
;)


*****
Press Release at http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030402/25076_1.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------



Press Release Source: Star Choice Communications Inc.

Star Choice Welcomes the 400 Channel Universe
Wednesday April 2, 8:31 am ET
Star Choice Announces Important Upgrades in Programming, Technology and Services

CALGARY, Alberta--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 2, 2003--Star Choice Communications Inc. (NYSE:SJR - News; TSX:SJR.B - News) is pleased to announce significant improvements in the programming, technology and services offered to its Direct-to-Home satellite television customers.

They include:

* New audio and video channels, including local and specialty channels
* Expanded HDTV programming
* Introduction of integrated HDTV receiver with advanced program guide
* Introduction of integrated Digital Video Recorder with HDTV receiver in early Q1 2004
* Enhanced onscreen program guide

"We believe these enhancements will provide Star Choice customers with the best entertainment service in the country," said Brad Shaw, Star Choice's Senior Vice President, Operations. "Our customers will be able to choose from over 400 channels across two satellites on the most advanced digital services platform in the business."

These advancements will be rolled out steadily over the next 12 months. "We want to tell our customers now about the wonderful new choices they will have with us," said Mr. Shaw.

400+ Channels

We are pleased to announce that Star Choice will carry CBC-CBOT Ottawa in May. Until then, Star Choice will also carry any Ottawa Senators play-off hockey games not carried on our other CBC channels. These games will be available to Star Choice customers for free on channel 238.

Other new channels include English and French local channels, specialty channels, audio services, and HD channels. For instance, Star Choice will launch four additional local channels by the end of April. These include CBC-CKSA Lloydminster, CTV-CITL Lloydminster, CBC-CFTK, Terrace Kitimat and CBC-CJDC Dawson Creek. These four services will only be available to customers in those local areas.

The specialty channel Discovery Wings, a science channel with a focus on air travel brought to you by the Discovery Channel, launches May 1. Star Choice customers will get a free three-month preview, after which it becomes part of Star Choice's Smart Stuff bundle.

Many more channels will be introduced this summer, in September, and early next year.

HDTV programming

At least four, and possibly six, new HDTV channels will launch by September, bringing the total number of HDTV channels on Star Choice to six or even eight. More HDTV channels and programming could be launched early next year, depending on the availability of high-quality HDTV content.

Advanced HDTV Integrated Receiver

Star Choice will introduce its customers to the Motorola DSR 500 this summer. This advanced HDTV receiver has an enhanced onscreen program guide with interactive features. It will provide customers with the ultimate HDTV viewing experience.

Advanced HDTV Integrated Receiver with a Digital Video Recorder (DVR)

In Q1 2004, Star Choice will release the Motorola DSR 530. This dual tuner receiver will allow Star Choice customers to simultaneously watch and digitally record programming, even HDTV content. It also has an enhanced onscreen program guide with interactive features so viewers will always know what's on when. No receiver in the market comes close to these capabilities.

Enhanced Interactive Program Guide

Every Star Choice customer enjoys the benefits of an onscreen programming guide that tells them what's on, gives program information and helps them plan their viewing for the week or weekend. An improved guide will be downloaded via satellite to well over one million receivers in March and April.

Advanced features include:

* A return of the mini-guide with picture-over-guide capability. By pressing the Guide button on their remote control twice, customers will see channel and program listings on the bottom third of the screen. They can browse the guide to see what else is on while continuing to view and hear programming.
* Enhanced parental controls that allow customers to lock rated programming with a password, preventing the screening of inappropriate content to minors.
* Simplified navigation. Cursor will land on the exact channel and time the customer is watching, making it easier to search channels, times and programs.

Star Choice is also the only Canadian Direct-to-Home provider to give every new customer the right dish and equipment to have instant access to two satellites.

"We are committed to providing Star Choice customers with the very best in digital technology and we will ensure that Star Choice continues to offer excellent value and choice," said Mr. Shaw.

The company will release further information on its new channels, services and receivers, as the year progresses.

About Star Choice

Star Choice Communications Inc., a subsidiary of Shaw Communications Inc. (TSX:SJR.B, NYSE:SJR), is a leading Canadian provider of crystal-clear digital picture and Dolby surround sound audio and video Direct-to-Home (DTH) satellite services. Star Choice delivers Canada's largest channel selection to approximately 800,000 subscribers. Star Choice also launched Canada's first elliptical dish, which facilitates multiple satellite reception. Canadians can purchase Star Choice equipment at more than 4,000 locations across the country, including Radio Shack, Future Shop, Sears, Leon's and The Brick. The Star Choice web site is accessible at www.starchoice.com.

*****
Of course, this is not meant to be an endorsement of services such as BEV or Star Choice, since that would be wrong, but it is simply posted for informational purposes. We all understand from the letter from the KMGH lawyers that it is only a matter of a 'few days' at most until the LCG stations are broadcasting from Lookout at full power. Otherwise, they would make more effort to provide an alternative like KCNC did.
:cool:

PS
Hey Mark, note that the posting date is April 2, not April 1.
:D

Originally posted by JMartinko

Advanced HDTV Integrated Receiver with a Digital Video Recorder (DVR)

In Q1 2004, Star Choice will release the Motorola DSR 530. This dual tuner receiver will allow Star Choice customers to simultaneously watch and digitally record programming, even HDTV content. It also has an enhanced onscreen program guide with interactive features so viewers will always know what's on when. No receiver in the market comes close to these capabilities. [/B]
If this Motorola unit comes out before a High-Def DirecTiVo, I might move to Canada myself.

Any one else having problems with KCNC? I've got a good signal (around 80) and it shows as "locked" but the picture is unwatchable. The other two stations from the same location are fine.

Is it just me again?

Thanks
Joe

new to all of this after reading through this post history there seems to be alot of informaiton, first I read that Denver is incapable of receiving an HD feed because they are sending out lower power feeds, Now on page 207 people are saying they are starting to see HD in the Denver Area.

Help a NOOB out, I live in lakewood co, and have purchased a samsung receiver but have not purchased an antenna yet for HD reception. Can somebody please clarify for me what channels in the Denver area are broadcasts in HD over Antenna feed and what specific channel should I be tuning into to try and get this feed, for example CBS should be channel 9 am I correct?


I am mostly concerned with receiving the broncos games in HD this football season. DO you think this will happen?


Any suggestions on a good antenna.

u-ray

Guess you are new - CBS is channel 4, 9 is NBC.

Here are some links for you:
http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/denverdtv.htm

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/address.asp

http://www.televes.es/ingles/inicio.asp

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmig.htm

Reggie

Your best bet for the status of "our" local "stations" HDTV "rollout" (man, I'm getting cynical) is to check the Denver DTV website: http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/denverdtv.htm -- there's a link there to "On-Air Status".

From Lakewood, I'd expect you to get KCNC, KRMA, KUSA, and KDVR's digital channels. Note that KDVR (as per Fox policy) doesn't do HDTV and KUSA isn't currently broadcasting HDTV.

Broncos in HDTV? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. No, seriously, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. OK, let me calm down, hahahaha. Here's the deal: Monday Night Football will be in HDTV in most of the country except Denver. Thank the gifted leadership at KMGH for that one. (And I suppose sCARE deserves some of the credit, too) ESPN-HD is supposed to have some HDTV football, but you can't currently get ESPN-HD from any provider in Denver. I don't know if CBS is planning on showing any Broncos games this year, but that would be your best bet. KCNC does a great job at giving the Denver public access to CBS' HDTV feeds. I can get their signal without dropouts way up in Brighton.

If you really want to get network HDTV in Denver, currently the only way to get ABC and NBC in HDTV is to get a Canadian satellite dish system -- they carry the US Network HDTV feeds from Boston and Seattle.

I'm using a 6-foot UHF/VHF antenna from Radio Shack for my HDTV reception currently. I can get KRMA-DT, KCNC-DT, and KDVR-DT. Any little indoor set-top antennas will likely only get you KDVR-DT at this point in time. Radio Shack has quite liberal return policies, so that's not a bad place to start. If you do a search in this thread for "antenna", you'll find some other good recommendations as well.

(Best way to search a single thread -- scroll to the bottom, choose "Printable version", then when that page comes up, click on "Show all postings" Use your browser's search feature at that point.)

U-ray,

I also live in Lakewood and am able to receive all the digital feeds available right now. Depending on where in Lakewood you live, you should be able to get most if not all of them too. I use a $ 20 Radio Shack antenna mounted on the roof to receive. Don't bother with an indoor antenna at this time. I doubt you would have any success at all.

Channel 4 is on 35 digital ( HDTV )
Channel 6 is on 18 digital ( HDTV )
Channel 7 is on 17 digital ( HDTV )
Channel 9 is on 16 digital ( still no HDTV passed through yet )
Channel 31 is on 32 digital ( only 480P or EDTV )

Jeff

While DrMal is correct that most of Denver cannot receive ABC in HD from 17, at least you are in the right part of town to reasonably expect to be able to tune it in. Unless you are in a low spot in the terrain in Lakewood and cannot see downtown at all, I would think you will have some success.

Jeff

u-ray, welcome to the thread!

There are 5 Denver stations broadcasting DTV at this time. Below I list all of the channels that are broadcasting, or that should start soon. Notice the channel numbers are different. These are the DTV channels, although some send their "current" channel information in their digital stream, so your Samsung will "show" the analog channel (on KUSA for instance, you tune to channel 16, on screen you'll see channel 9-1).

The following 3 are broadcasting a low-power signal from Republic Plaza downtown. If you point your antenna toward them, you SHOULD be able to get these.
16 (KUSA - NBC) -- KUSA is NOT doing any HDTV at this time
18 (KRMA - PBS)
35 (KCNC - CBS)

KMGH (analog channel 7) is broadcasting a VERY low power signal from their rooftop on Speer. Get a good outdoor antenna and point toward them and see if you get anything.
17 (KMGH - ABC)

KDVR (analog channel 31) -- FOX does not do ANY HDTV. They do some things in widescreen 480p (EDTV). KDVR ids broadcasting from Lookout Mtn at about 1/3 power. Most people seem to be able to pick it up OK even when pointing the antenna toward downtown. If you can't do this, you will probably need a rotor.
32 (KDVR - FOX)

KDEN is a home shopping network channel from Longmont (analog channel 25). They have done some broadcasting, but nothing worth watching.
29 (KDEN - ACN)

KDBI (PBS channel 12) did some testing about a year ago with a very low power signal. No word on when they will start up again.
38 (KBDI - PBS) (Squaw)


Channels not on air yet

KWGN (analog channel 2) is supposed to have started in March. They have approval from Jeffco to broadcast 1/2 power off a small tower they have on Lookout, but (S)CARE has filed suit against them, the FCC has not approved their low power transmission yet. Wait, wait, wait.
34 (KWGN - WB)

I have no information about the rest of these, but this at least shows their DTV channel allocations...
15 (KTVJ - HSN)
19 (KTVD - UPN)
40 (KRMT - DAY)
43 (KPXC - PAX)
46 (KWHD - REL)
51 (KCEC - ESP)


As for antenna.. . Here's a possibility that is the right price. There is a Radio Shack on S Federal that (as of Dec) had one of these...
Model Number: VU-160XR This is nearly 12 ft long (but comes in sections).
Catalog Number: 150-2155 (This is the number to use when checking).

I have one of these in the crawl space above my attic. I get all Denver analog stations easily, and I also get get (but not very well) Cheyenne channels 5 and 27 just from reflections off of the wall (I've got it pointed at Denver, not Cheyenne). So both VHF and UHF seems to pick up pretty well. I can only get KDVR DTV with that antenna, because my house lies between my Garage and downtown. I use an RS double bow tie to get the other DTV stations I can get (I dont' have a chance at KMGH).
This is discontinued, and they were selling it for $2.97. You may want to see if they still have one available.

Once you get everything up, post your results in the Denver Coverage Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587).

Good Luck, Greg

when you say welcome to the thread I get the idea that I will be staying with this thread for sometime, I really appreciate the help and that post you put togethor it helps me out alot, By the way of your post channel 35 is cbs and is the channel that I would receive Broncos football games on if they broadcast that in HD? I guess time will only tell.

You could also see the Broncos in HD on KMGH DT17 when they are on Monday Night Football... That is if you're lucky enough to receive 17.

Most likely there will be some games in HD on CBS also. Not every game will be in HD, just the "game of the week" which should include Denver a couple of times.

And ESPN-HD will have their Sunday night games in HD (if it is available by then).

FWIW the new Bronco schedule was released this morning and can be found at:

http://denverbroncos.com/

Two ABC HD games and one ESPN HD game besides the normal CBS telecasts. There are no announcements AFAIK of which, if any, CBS games might be in HD.

The other question I'd have is whether KCNC could show the HD games anyway (when they are not the Broncos). I know there are many times when the CBS doubleheader "isn't" here in Denver on those occasions when Denver plays on FOX against an NFC team. And other times when the late game may be HD, but not the Bronco game, I'd guess KCNC would "have" to air the Bronco game on analog and DTV. It'll be interesting to see. Hopefully KGWN (Cheyenne CBS) and KKTV (Colorado Springs CBS ) will be up by then so if KCNC can't show it, maybe (at least some of us) will be able to get it from the non-market CBS stations nearby).

Of course our "Canadian" friends will be able to get the game each week hassle-free.

Greg

FWIW, here is the site that shows the national telecast games including those on ABC and ESPN which 'should' be in HD.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/s/primeschedule/2003.html

Now it is up to the reader to figure out how to get those channels at the moment. One thread from Canada implied that TSN (the Canadian Regional Sports Network) is negotiating for the HD feed. TSN, which is available on BEV and Star Choice showed the ESPN game feed on Sunday last year, and might be able to negotiate for the HD feed on those services too. I believe TSN is partially owned or in partnership with ESPN, I am not sure which. Stay tuned on that one, I think it is still mostly rumor at this point. As for ABC reception, of course if you don't live in the KMGH parking lot, some services are available from Canada as well. Of course I would never actually 'endorse' such reception, especially since the KMGH lawyer has assured us that it is only a matter of a few months until they are on the air from Lookout at full power. Everyone knows, of course, you can ALWAYS trust a lawyer. Of course, if you actually 'move' to Canada, or have your 'second' home there, as some here have done, that is another story.
:rolleyes:

As for KCNC's ability to do out of market games which are in HD, I would think that not broadcasting the Bronco game locally on both channels would not be a great marketing tool for them. The advertisers are likely to start to 'balk' at that move. I could be wrong on that one, but if they did use the DTV channel for the 'other' game, it would likely only be for this year while HD viewers are limited. My guess though, is that even if they wanted to the NFL telecast 'black out' and 'must carry' rules would surely trump any decision they might want to make. That is strictly my own opinion though.
:rolleyes:

I had a bad experience with a tech tweaking my hitachi 57uwx20b a week ago that I described in this thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=243455


He will be coming back whenever I want to schedule a return visit. I would like to check things out with the AVIA dvd before he comes back. Is there someone who has it that would lend it to me for a little while - I would be glad to loan some of my dvd's in exhange, some of which are fairly rate ;-)

I live in the boulder area - thanks.

Set

I had a pretty bad experience with a tech tweaking my hitachi 57uwx20b a week ago that I described in this thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=243455


He will be coming back whenever I want to schedule a return visit. I would like to check things out with the AVIA dvd before he comes back. Is there someone who has it that would lend it to me for a little while - I would be glad to loan some of my dvd's in exhange, some of which are fairly rare ;-)


Also, any recommendations on a good ISF guy around here if it should come to that point?

I live in the boulder area. Thanks.

Set

DSSSET, I can lend you the old Video Essentials DVD or the Home Theater Tune Up DVDs. I am not too far down the road in Westminster and can meet you there, here or in the middle.

I met a SoundTrack employee at the Ft. Collins location who is ISF and HAA certified. I have not used him nor do I know anybody who has. In talking with him he does seem very knowledgable, but then most of my ISF or tweaking info. comes from this forum. I won't post his info. here since this isn't a commercial for him, but PM or e-mail me and I can send you his info. if you would like to interview/screen him.

jm,
I saw the HDNet show called Across America. This first episode was about Boulder -- "... the little town nestled between the mountains and reality." Didn't see you; I suppose you live closer to either the mountains..or reality.

Originally posted by RonAuger
jm,
I saw the HDNet show called Across America. This first episode was about Boulder -- "... the little town nestled between the mountains and reality." Didn't see you; I suppose you live closer to either the mountains..or reality.
:D

Ron
Thanks for the 'heads up', I haven't seen that show, I will have to try to catch it. BTW, can't afford to live up in the mountains, and I have never thought 'reality' was all its cracked up to be. I avoid it whenever possible. I much prefer 'Boulder'. Besides, the more people that despise Boulder, the less people that want to move here. That formula works out OK for me!

Just finished reading the interview with Hunter S. Thompson in Boulder Weekly, BTW, does anyone know when the next 'Dead' concert will be???
:cool:

Ron,

I put your graphical timeline link of the Denver DTV site. I forgot about it until I saw your sig. Is there anything else that needs posting there?
-------------
Does anybody know if (S)Care has filed a suit against PIC/BCDC for Morrison?
I know they have against KWGN. I wonder why the haven't filed suits against any of the stations broadcasting from Republic. I guess their property values wouldn't be effected much if they fought to get rid of those X-mitters. But what about all those handicapped people whose wheel-chairs might drive mysteriously off the roof of Republic... Hmmm?

I guess they only really CARE about one thing.

Ernie,
Thanks, that's it.

BTW, did you happen to notice the cover picture of the "Sleeper house" on one of the Robb Report mags? Don't you live close to it? It was on sale in the mag with a nice glossy 2-3 page spread -- for $10M (that's millions of dollars, not megawatts).

It didn't mention anything about the difficulty in receiving HDTV from Genesse Mtn or how depressed the housing market was, and hence the price, due to the tower farm on Lookout Mtn. ( .. added this pg to stay on-topic)

Oh, no! Crackdown coming on ExpressView!



-don

Good morning everyone.

I did a new scan this morning to reconcile the KRMA channel 18 re-map to channel 80. When channel 18 performs upconverts of channel 6, my DTC-100 would not show channel 18 because of the channel 80 re-map. A re-scan fixed that.

However, now I'm picking up a strong ATSC signal from KWHD Channel 53 out of Englewood, signal strength 88. Did I miss something here? I did not know they were on the air with their digital signal.

I know it is a religious channel, however I'm watching a fishing show right now.

Don

Yes, I am getting a signal here, looks like they have their xmitter up.
Channel 46 !

It's always cool to see another DTV station light up. Even if it is religious.

Englewood? The FCC web site (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KWHD) says HQ'd in Castle Rock and places the transmitter just two miles from my house on Hilltop Rd. (of course, we know how accurate their db has been! :D )

I get a 70 on my signal meter, even though my antenna is pointed 90-100 degrees away. The FCC website shows 300kw ERP if they are full power, 7kw ERP if they are not.

Looks like KUSA-DT xmitter may have blown down. At 1PM this afternoon, there is no signal.

You know, I kept telling them -- wait until you can get a decent flange, but NOOOO, they have to go and put their DTV signal up...

:D :D :D

Alhtough I am not at home to verify my claim, I simply must point out that your claim that KUSA is off the air MUST be mistaken. I saw an add on their station recently that said the Colorado Broadcasters Association said they were station of the year (although they didn't specify which year), and I also saw an add that said they were Colorado's Number One station. Of course we all know their reluctance for 'self promotion', so they must have been forced to run these adds by the FCC.

Your tuners must be broken. KUSA is surely on the air in HD, after all, they are Number 1. If you don't believe it, just ask them. They have known about the DTV transition for nearly 8 years. As good as their adds say they are, they surely must have a half dozen 'flanges' sitting on the shelf just waiting to be used. Why just last April 1 I got this letter from them.......You guys better go check your gear again.
:D

I wish I could search a particular thread for this but you can't, so I apologize in advance if it has been asked a million times already.

Is there a recommended place in the Denver/Boulder area that I could purchase a good bowtie antenna like the ChannelMaster? I tried the Silver Sensor this weekend and didn't get so much as a blip of a signal. Doesn't surprise me though--I live in far west Arvada and my line of sight to downtown would be through the basement cement wall and hill behind that.

Thanks,

Jake

Religious channel up ... KUSA-DT down.
Act of God!?

Englewood? The FCC web site says HQ'd in Castle Rock and places the transmitter just two miles from my house on Hilltop Rd. (of course, we know how accurate their db has been! )

Hey Ron,

This is from their web site...

KWHD TV-53 is located in Dove Valley at 12999 East Jamison Circle in Englewood, Colorado. The stunning 30,000 square foot facility has a 100x100 foot Studio, the largest at any Colorado TV station, with state of the art video equipment. KWHD TV is a full power independent station broadcasting five million watts over the air from a tower in Elizabeth, Colorado. KWHD TV is picked up by all the major cable affiliates in the Denver Metro area reaching over 600,000 cable subscribers, and is carried by both DBS providers, reaching additional viewers..


Elizabeth, huh? Sure is some sweet signal strength from there. Hopefully your HOA won't start picketing.

I wish I could get ABC from Elizabeth (KMGH ARE YOU THERE? Well, it has been a couple of months; where is my full power KMGH digital signal from Lookout?) Speaking of KMGH, I am very disappointed that our letter campaign has been totally blown off by the FCC as far as I can tell.

KCNC has earned all of my local viewing. Although my favorite show CSI-Miami (Emily Proctor!) is not on tonight, I'll have to suffer with Kansas vs. Syracuse.

_____________

Don

I wasn't able to get 46 on Sat. when I tried, but I didn't play with my antenna at all. A friend of mine who has borrowed one of my spare OTA HD receivers was able to get a signal from 46 up in Lyons last night. He said there was not enough signal for a clean picture, mostly just artifacting and frozen pictures. He did not move his antenna from its pointing direction towards downtown, but Elizabeth should be about the same direction from there. That is at least another data point. I will have to try from my place again. Anyone else on the north end??

BTW, I didn't watch OTA HD last night (sorry KCNC, I watched KU gag from another source), is KUSA back on the air yet anyone?????

Don't forget the fun starts tomorrow at 6:00 in Jeffco Hearing Room 1.

-Wabisabi

I'm wondering if KUSA is off the air because they are now installing the HD equipment and switching over to it...

Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it tomorrow night to the first hearing. I've got some real life stuff going on that's more important to me than television is...I really hate it when that happens...

Originally posted by JMartinko
Anyone else on the north end??


I came across it a couple of weeks ago when I was scanning in a hope to catch a blip from Colorado Springs. I thought it had been mentioned in the thread a while back so didn't even think about it being new.

I get a SS in the high 70s low 80s on a Dish 6000.

Just so I understand all of this. KWHD we can get in Lyons and Loveland, but KMGH we can't see north of Speer. OK, I think I have it straight now. So when KMGH wants my help in Jeffco what should I tell them????
:confused:

Hey Wabisabi -- I won't be able to make the hearing tomorrow night. If you'll be there, can you post an update here afterwards please?

Even though I can't make tomorrow's hearing, I'm very curious to see how this all plays out.

-David

I would not sweat any of us missing the hearing tomorrow, as it will probably drag out, like Morrison did. But if the outcome is like the Mt. Morrison BCC hearing, then it will be worth it.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Just so I understand all of this. KWHD we can get in Lyons and Loveland, but KMGH we can't see north of Speer. OK, I think I have it straight now. So when KMGH wants my help in Jeffco what should I tell them????
:confused: Thanks but no thanks.

My rants on KMGH may be a few pages back in this thread but they're still fresh in my mind. I am sorry folks but I have decided not to support LCG2 (but I will not campaign against it either). I hope things work out for KCNC but quite frankly I could care less if KMGH and KUSA ever get on the air.

Where's the "Nova: Runaway Universe" pgm that's supposed to be on now? KRMA is still simulcasting a different NOVA program that is on ch 6 in 480i. Anybody have a late night phone# for KRMA?

I tried to find KWHD last night, and couldn't get a blip of signal from it from 2nd & Sheridan. Not that it really matters to me, but I thought it was interesting that I'm 40 miles closer to the transmitter than some of you and couldn't get any signal from it at all.

KRMA was on normally from 5:30 to 6:00 last night for Smart Travels II, and then they went dead for me. All I got was a frozen picture on 80.3, and my receivers wouldn't map 18, so once they started simulcasting, I lost them completely.

On the LCG front, I've decided that I am going to support the application and do everything I can to help them out. Yes, I'm not happy with KUSA and how long they're taking to get HD on the air, and I'm still pissed at KMGH for their response to moving their transmitter to Republic for the interim. But, unlike others, I do care that they get on the air at a power level that everyone can receive, and sooner rather than later. I'm not supporting them for them...I'm doing it for me. I'm getting tired of worrying if I'm going to get signal if it starts snowing or if the wind is blowing a little bit. I've spent a lot of money getting on my OTA HD recording setup and I want to be able to effectively use it. And frankly, as much as I like you guys here, I'd rather be watching television with my SS's pegged at 100% and not having anything to talk about here. I want full power HD before 2012 (does anyone really believe that everything will switch over in 2006? Ha...I certainly dont...) and I'm convinved that this application succeeding is our only hope of that happening. I figure if this application passes, we'll have full power from Lookout by the end of 2005. If it goes down, It'll be 2010 at least before that happens...or maybe 2112...or whatever. That's where I stand.

Well, here we go again!

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E1311198,00.html

Thanks for reminding me that there is a consortium I dislike more than the LCG.

FWIW, I'm going to delay my decision on supporting the LCG2 app until BCC hearings start. I'll have more time to think about it and see how events unfold.

For the moment, I do not plan to support (or oppose) the LCG application. Frankly, I am not convinced that several of the LCG stations even 'want' our support. I still believe at least two of the stations are 'counting' on this application to be delayed as long as possible.

BTW, Mark, I still have not been able to get KWHD from my house either, and I also noticed that KRMA was off the air along with KUSA when I tried during the evening.

So if the FCC were to overturn the will of the commissioners in the interest of the public good, that would be a travesty (according to sCARE), but when the commissioners have a ruling that sCARE doesn't like, it's perfectly logical and appropriate for them to file a suit against the county in the interest of 2 or 3 people's property values?

Argh. What do you call 3 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.

Originally posted by dr_mal
So if the FCC were to overturn the will of the commissioners in the interest of the public good, that would be a travesty (according to sCARE), but when the commissioners have a ruling that sCARE doesn't like, it's perfectly logical and appropriate for them to file a suit against the county in the interest of 2 or 3 people's property values?

Argh. What do you call 3 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start.

That is about the most accurate summary of the (S)CARE position I have seen. Maybe they will post it on their web page for their readers?
:D

Did we ever decide what the "S" in sCARE stood for?

BTW, just talked to someone at KRMA. For now, they're proceeding on the Morrison tower project full steam ahead. They still expect to have the tower operational in the 12-18 month timeframe. The impression I got is that the sCARE lawsuit is more of a gesture than anything substantial and that it won't delay the project. I hope that's not just wishful thinking.

My thinking is that sCARE will be putting all their financial and time resources into fighting LCG now so hopefully nothing will come of this frivolous lawsuit. What a waste of taxpayer money -- asking the county to overturn a decision made by the county.

I still say we should bring the FCC in here and have the army corps of engineers build a real tower farm on Lookout to give us all high power HDTV. Maybe once Iraq has been liberated, JeffCo will be next.

I'm thinking 30 towers, all the height of KCNC's current tower, spread all over the top and face of Lookout should be sufficient. And install really bright white spotlights on them to make sure they can be seen from land and air. That'd be perfect!

Originally posted by JMartinko
Frankly, I am not convinced that several of the LCG stations even 'want' our support. I still believe at least two of the stations are 'counting' on this application to be delayed as long as possible.


That's one reason I can't quite understand why the KMGH low-power transmitter should have any impact on whether you should support LCG2. They are unrelated issues. We need to remove any excuse that reluctant broadcasters may have to not deliver FCC-mandated DTV to us.

You should support LCG2 because it is a good project that meets JeffCo goals while also being the best path to getting DTV to the greatest number of viewers. The KMGH low-power transmitter, or their behavior, has nothing to do with the merits of the LCG2 project.

Anyway, I plan to send a letter. The pace of this process, and the recent lawsuits, is very discouraging.

Mark

P.S. I can't any signal at all for KWHD-DT (46?) in Fort Collins.

Just for the record...
I can't get DT46 in the Golden/Genesee area at 8,000' either.

My reason for not supporting (but not objecting) LCGII is to make a point to let KMGH know we are not happy. I feel the LCG really needs our support, and by providing that, we should get some respect. I truely believe that Mt. Morrison was approved in part, because of all our effort and testimony.

Come on KMGH, show some respect, and show some willingness to provide your signal in the public interest. Then, we will back you 100%!

I understand being upset with kmgh. They are being cheap and dragging their feet. But as hard as I've tried, I can't understand not supporting the tower. This tower will bring HD to all the front range. Something that those of us in Greeley, Ft. Collins, Loveland etc. right now get NONE of (except Fox 32). Write your letters to the FCC regarding kmgh, but why in the heck would you want to slow this down? In effect, helping scare who has been ridiculed on this board for the 2.5 years I've been here.

This tower is for more than one station (including a station that has been a leader in HD) - and it's for the state of Colorado. Some of you are cutting off your nose to spite your face with your stance on this.

IMHO.

BTW, I don't get anything of 46 either.

Mike,
I know it's really tough on you guys (gals) up north. It's gonna be 2-3 years before you get any HD from Denver, if that.

So, I'd suggest going WAY up north for programming. I'd recommend doing it real soon, as they are starting to tighten up the rules. I've tried (as many of us) the FCC letter campaign... writing over and over to what avail? None. Bottom line, I don't need KMGH, but they need us.

Ernie,

I'm quite friendly with the Canadians already. ;)
Ironically, KGWN (CBS Cheyenne) should be up soon (this month??). Cheyenne beats Denver. Sad, sad, sad... But I'll take it.

Originally posted by mbuchana
That's one reason I can't quite understand why the KMGH low-power transmitter should have any impact on whether you should support LCG2. They are unrelated issues.

I disagree, these are NOT unrelated issues.

KUSA has known for over 8 years they needed to transmit DTV and would have to time shift HD/DTV signals from the network to provide HD here in Denver. They are well over 3 years late in getting on the air, and even if there are outside influences on the process, the bottom line is they KNEW they needed the equipment. They don't care (pun intended, so neither do I).

As for KMGH, they did the LEAST amount possible to avoid FCC intervention and have now made it clear they will make no further effort to provide their services to the people of the front range. They know full well they are two years away, at least, from transmitting from Lookout Mt. They don't care (pun intended, so neither do I).

KTVD has not demonstrated any need or effort to get on the air on their own. Granted they are an independent and were not required to be on the air until last May, but I still have seen no effort, or even any cooperation or involvement in the LCG, at least not in our presence. They don't care (pun intended, so neither do I).

KCNC is the only notable exception to this rule. They have obviously gone out of their way to accommodate their viewers as best they can, and I am sorry they are teamed with the other incompetent stations in the LCG. I cannot change that. KRMA obviously was wise enough to leave the group and go on their own and I congratulate James for doing that.

If their networks have programs I want to see, I will find other sources. The only local LCG channel I watch with any regularity now will be KCNC. Fortunately, with my home setup, I spend very little time watching network television.

My decision is basically that since I see little or no effort on the part of the majority of LCG stations to get on the air, and in point of fact, I still have the impression they HOPE this drags on as long as possible . KGMH and KUSA are not planning to pay me to go to the hearings, and they are unwilling to spend any money to get their interim signals in HD to at least some of the public. It cost me money in the form of time to change my schedule to travel to their meetings. I have two full time jobs, one at work, and the other, raising a 16 year old son. My time is valuable too! The LCG stations can certainly not accuse me of not investing time and effort to help them in the past. Since they make little or no effort to provide their services to me, I will give them the courtesy of providing the same effort to help them out, i.e. NONE. (As far as I can tell, they would prefer not to succeed with the application at this time anyway).


PS
BTW, my apologies to those of you up north and in areas that can't get any HD at this time. I use the equipment from my second home in Canada :rolleyes: as well as other equipment I have purchased, so I don't need the locals either. I might 'suggest' you consider second 'home ' in Canada or a C-Band set up as well. I will be happy to PM my own experiences and equipment recommendations. If you don't go that route, Cheyenne and/or Colorado Springs will be on the air a lot sooner than the LCG stations no matter how fast they get approval.

PS-TWO
Hey, if KMGH and KUSA had spent the same percentage of their budget on HD equipment as I have to receive the various stations I get, most of the front range would already have access to HD. I could have saved a TON of money too if all I had to buy and keep up was a OTA receiver.

Jim

Thanks for your posting. I have been considering purchase of a home in canada too. :) Perhaps I will reward myself one after I get a new job (Agilent Work Force Reduction). And all these postings about Denver reception have been hard to listen to since we are f*ed up here in the North no matter what.

Reggie

Hmmm,
To support LCG 2 or not?

From a purely selfish perspective (I can get a stable signal from the republic stations), my questions would be:
1. If LCG is approved, when will KMGH be on the air from Lookout?

A guess: 12 months for decision. If approved 12-18 month build-out. Then there is testing, foot dragging, realizing "we don't have the appropriate *** (put any noun here) yet". And the required frivolous sCARE lawsuit/injunction. I just don't see it happening before mid-2006 (maybe I'm a pessimist, but that's my guess).

2. If LCG is denied, will a letter writing campaign to the FCC have any more effect than the last one?

3. If the answer to #2 is yes, would KMGH (even under pressure from the FCC) actually agree to move?

4. If the answer to #3 is yes, how long until they would be up and running from a "better" location?

A guess: If the app is denied, it's still going to be a year from now. What are the chances that #2, and 3 are "yes"? About the same as Saddam and Hitler having a snowball fight... But since I don't want to be such a pessimist, let's say a letter writing campaign and/or the FCC could convince KMGH to move. You still have the feet-dragging and all that other delay tactics. Again, when I look at it this way, maybe end of 2005. A little sooner, but still ridiculously slow and less "sure" than approval.

Well, this really bites! When I started writing this post, I thought I'd not support LCG because I thought it would have a chance to get KMGH to move, but given their history, I guess it would not actually get them on the air much sooner.

I swear, I may just have to get that vacation home in the great white north as well. Then we could all move to the "O Canada, who cares about Lookout" thread.

Originally posted by JMartinko
(As far as I can tell, they would prefer not to succeed with the application at this time anyway)I agree, they want this to drag. They're hoping for an LCG3!

So wouldn't support for this application and getting it approved be, in a way, sticking it to them?

Or a complete waste of our time if they intentionally blow it. I wonder if the LCG stations aren't funding sCARE...

-David

<edit: hmm....thinking about it, KCNC likely wants to get the most bang for their HDTV investment -- that would be Lookout. KUSA has a page on their website pleading for help. I guess that would leave KMGH as the only station that might be funding sCARE>

Mark (dl) said,
On the LCG front, I've decided that I am going to support the application and do everything I can to help them out. Yes, I'm not happy with KUSA and how long they're taking to get HD on the air, and I'm still pissed at KMGH for their response to moving their transmitter to Republic for the interim. But, unlike others, I do care that they get on the air at a power level that everyone can receive, and sooner rather than later. I understand how you feel and certainly hope this works out for all involved (except SCARE of course).Mark (buchana) said,
You should support LCG2 because it is a good project that meets JeffCo goals while also being the best path to getting DTV to the greatest number of viewers. The KMGH low-power transmitter, or their behavior, has nothing to do with the merits of the LCG2 project. Most of the LCG stations have ignored us and given us confusing and misleading information (or no information at all). Some have even gone so far as to be pretty deceptive with us. I agree with the "support is a two way street" position but certain stations want it to be one way. Frankly I am not going to take their crap on the one hand and them try and help them out with the other. They have reaped what that have sowed. YMMV and I understand that, and I am okay with that if that is what you feel is right.Mike said,
Some of you are cutting off your nose to spite your face with your stance on this. Well that's one opinion but I don't see it that way. As I posted after the KMGH FCC response I do not believe KMGH is a company operating with a respect for ethics and honesty. I cannot condone the crap they said and I will not support them or any group they are involved in as a result of their practices. I could have accepted a straight out no (to move to republic Plaza) but to do what they did caught me off guard and with complete surprise. I now understand the arrogance and mistrust they have established for themselves with Lookout residents.

It boils down to this - with the exception of KCNC none of them have earned my trust. I do not know their motives and I cannot really support folks whose motives I really don't understand.

Jm - good points I agree.

Boy, I thought I was the only well (well, maybe Geof too) who was really upset with the treatement we got. Unfortunately, I would now bet the only one happy to be reading this thread is Deb Carney and the (S)CARE folks.

LCG II hearing...

Good presentation by LCG, short summary by Staff (recommending denial based on alternative sites - mostly mount morrison).

They got through all the HOA's (Home Owner Associations) tonight, and will meet again on April 30th for individual testimony.

The LCG model was built by the same company that did the Mt. Morrison model. It looks very nice.

The HOA's basically said:

It will kill us.

It has too much interference.

It will hurt our property values.

It will fall on our houses.

They don't have water.

The building is ugly.

They have tried to rezone this same property 4 previous times(83, 85 90, 99), enough is enough.

Alternative sites exist. - Squaw Mtn. (but not Mt. Morrison)


Too tired, must sleep....

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by Geof
but to do what they did caught me off guard and with complete surprise. I now understand the arrogance and mistrust they have established for themselves with Lookout residents.


I really had to do a double-take at the we don't really care that nobody can receive us because the LCG app is coming. We sure do hope all those that wrote to the FCC will support us and the LCG application sentiments (my interpretation of their statements). Geof is right, they are really quite arrogant.

I can understand where Jeff, John and others are coming from. As I re-read their letter I find myself saying "They must think this is REALLY important to me, or they think that I am a mindless sheep that will do whatever they want. If they expect me to support them when they basically said 'can't get our crappy little signal? Tough sh*t, but be sure and drop by Jeffco for us.'" I feel like if I do what they want, then they are right, either I AM a mindless sheep or TV is REALLY important to me. Well, as my wife likes to remind me "it's only TV, get outside and do something fun."

Oh well. I don't know what I going to do, but I probably should try to lose that letter from KMGH for my own peace of mind.

In the Rocky (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_1874498,00.html)

-Wabisabi

From that article:
"Opponents say more towers compromise the scenic beauty of the mountains, hurt property values, pose a health hazard from radio-frequency emissions and interfere with electronic equipment in their homes and businesses.Amazing how LCG2 creates more towers - must be a different application than the one I read on the LCG site.

Amazing that more towers don't hurt scenic beauty if they are erected on Eldorado or Squaw.

Amazing that property values will decrease if LCG2 is approved and several existing towers and building are torn down.

I guess SCARE and the Iraqi Minister of Information both think reality is only a figment of the imagination.

There are times when the bullsh*t from (S)CARE is simply amazing. Apparently, Deb Carney has reached the point where she no longer even bothers to deal with the truth if it doesn't fit here agenda.

Between all the 'fertilizer' being distributed by the (S)CARE folks and three of the four the LCG stations (except for KCNC), it should at least be a green summer on the front range, even if there isn't any rain. Man, what a load of "stuff" from both sides.

On the positive side, the reporter did present the facts -- one smaller tower replaces 3 existing towers, so hopefully any reader with a brain will realize Deb Carney's statements to be explicitly false.

Originally posted by dr_mal
........so hopefully any reader with a brain will realize.......
As those of you who know me well can attest, I am exercising remarkable restraint pertaining to a vast number of the people of Colorado by not editorializing about that comment.
:D

Can somebody 'spain this to me...
Why is the planning board recommending 'denial' of the app. based on the applicant not providing enough info on alternate sites? Isn't the 'planning board' the same folks who
approved the BCDC/PIC application that was approved? Didn't we all go through this before and they dismissed Squaw & Eldorado.

Did I read that the planning board wants LCG to consider Morrision? Is the planning board that stupid? First, there isn't enough room on Morrison for everybody and second, The stations aren't going to consider paying rent.

And third, the BCC forced the Mt. Morrison folks to remove any additional capacity for future stations in the written restrictions ("why do you say you can support 8 antennas when you only plan on putting up 4 right away? Change the written restriction to 4").

Sigh.

The logic of it all 'boggles the mind". It makes you wonder just where dr_mal is going to find his "readers with a brain"?
It may take a LOT of searching if you restrict you search to Jeffco (of course if you start the search with AVS members, we might be OK).
:D

If the KMGH lawyers hadn't assured us that it was only a matter of a few months until they would be on the air, I would be worried about this whole process........

Originally posted by santellavision
Can somebody 'spain this to me...
Why is the planning board recommending 'denial' of the app. based on the applicant not providing enough info on alternate sites? Isn't the 'planning board' the same folks who
approved the BCDC/PIC application that was approved? Didn't we all go through this before and they dismissed Squaw & Eldorado.

Did I read that the planning board wants LCG to consider Morrision? Is the planning board that stupid? First, there isn't enough room on Morrison for everybody and second, The stations aren't going to consider paying rent.

Originally posted by dr_mal
And third, the BCC forced the Mt. Morrison folks to remove any additional capacity for future stations in the written restrictions ("why do you say you can support 8 antennas when you only plan on putting up 4 right away? Change the written restriction to 4").

Some clarification:

First, it is the planning staff who is recommending denial, not the planning board. (FYI: there is no such thing as the 'planning board')

The denial is based on a requirement of the Zoning Resolution that requires the applicant to prove that their equipment cannot go on an existing or approved site. To that end, the only "proof" that LCG has submitted is a letter saying that their equipment cannot fit in the building. However, Mt. Morrison has submitted a letter saying that the LCG equipment can fit on Mt. Morrison, if they use both towers.

Second, the building size for Mt. Morrison is limited to 14,000 square feet of GLA (gross leas-able area), which is very different from 14,000 square feet of floor area. (common areas, mechanical rooms, etc are not counted toward GLA).

Third, Mt. Morrison is limited to the number of places they can attach antennas, but not in the number of antennas. For example, they can stack theri antennas, or put them side-by-side.

Fourth, the zoning resolution allows for not being able to make an agreement on issues like rent to be considered.

Fifth, no one knows why Squaw was discounted for Mt. Morrison since the BCC did not mention it. So, perhaps it was discarded for short-spacing issues with the public radio stations (the so-called 'fatal flaw' for squaw) who are not a part of LCG now.

Sixth, CARE says that Mt. Morrison is NOT an alternative site.

Hope this clears things up...

Wabisabi

Originally posted by dr_mal
Maybe once Iraq has been liberated, JeffCo will be next.
I was reading an article about the telecommunications companies that are gearing up to court the new government in Iraq to build a new communications infrastructure in Iraq. Will anyone take a bet that Baghdad will get full-power HDTV before Denver?

Originally posted by wabisabi
The denial is based on a requirement of the Zoning Resolution that requires the applicant to prove that their equipment cannot go on an existing or approved site. This is where things are clear as mud. During the BCDC hearings it was non-definitively brought up that the requirement to prove that alternative existings sites were unsuitable, was not necessary for zoning changes to existing telecommunications facilities. I have been unable to find that statement in the TLUP or its resolutions/amendments/revisions. Wabisabi, are you familiar with this clause and what document it might be contained in?

Forgive my early morning pre-coffee ramblings, but....
Maybe I am missing something - why should I (we) care if the stations move to Morrison? What matter does it make if they locate their digital facilities on Morrison and leave their analog facilities on Lookout? The stations may not like it but why should this matter to me (us)? Another couple of antennas on Morrison versus more antennas on Lookout seems awash to me. If LCG2 fails those stations will have to go somewhere because Lookout would likely never see their digital facilities.

If the LCG stations put their digital stations on Morrison and then removed their analog facilities from Lookout whenever the end comes what would this mean to us?
The stations would be on the air digitally and isn't that primarily what we're after?
Many of us do not want to see towers proliferating along the Front Range but Morrison is already approved and will be built....what's a couple more antennas....they are going to be somewhere anyways. The only thing I can see is that during the interim period where digital and analog co-exist there would be more towers but in 10 years (or whenever) the analog towers can go away. What's left then are digital antennas on Morrison instead of Lookout. Big deal.
The stations could likely go to Morrison and get on the air quicker than pursuing a LCG2 app. Morrison is approved - LCG2 is not. Seems like Morrison would be better for us because the stations could be on the air sooner rather than later.
Oh yeah, the lawsuit.....there's gonna be a lawsuit for Lookout too if LCG2 is approved.
Now then - what if the stations don't really want to spend the money for digital (can anyone spell KMGH or KUSA?). Another failed LCG application is perfect cover for them. It buys them several more years. Maybe it would be best if JeffCo would just "throw the app out" (if that's possible) and tell them to go to Morrison....

Frankly, I'm coming to the conclusion this rational is another reason to NOT support LCG2.

Additionally the Mt. Morrison is not feasible because of the limitations the Board of County Commissioners required regarding building size. Further, no improvements will occur on Lookout Mountain without our approval. If forced to locate our DTV elsewhere, we would do so only temporarily. Once the dual transmission period ends, we would convert the Lookout Mountain sites to digital. If necessary, this could be done with no modifications outside of the building.This was in the letter from Pete. He states that the stations would more likely stay temporary, and then wait out the transistion, than go elsewhere. With an 80% market penetration, that would most likely be about 2020! I guess they think everyone in (S)CARE will either be dead and gone or living in Bocca-Del-Vista by then too.

Originally posted by RonAuger
This is where things are clear as mud. During the BCDC hearings it was non-definitively brought up that the requirement to prove that alternative existings sites were unsuitable, was not necessary for zoning changes to existing telecommunications facilities. I have been unable to find that statement in the TLUP or its resolutions/amendments/revisions. Wabisabi, are you familiar with this clause and what document it might be contained in?

From the zoning resolution, Section 17, F (Planned Development for towers), Minimum standards:

The applicant must provide expert testimony that demonstrates to the satisfaction of the Board of County Commissioners that no existing telecommunications site is available to accommodate the equipment or purpose for which the tower or increase in height is proposed at a reasonable cost or other business terms.

From the TLUP, Tower siting and review policy:

The applicant must show that their proposed equipment cannot be accommodated and function as required by its construction permit or license without unreasonable modifications on any other existing facility.

-Wabisabi

In my letter to the commissioners, I indicated that I actually didn't know if approval would bring me DTV any sooner. This is based on the belief that if it was denied, at least some of the broadcasters would probably have to put their DTV antennas on Mt. Morrison, Squaw, or elsewhere.

But, if LCG2 is denied, the facilities on lookout would remain "forever," and JeffCo would lose a significant opportunity for tower consolidation.

Mark

In (S)Care's little twisted mind, they believe that the existing towers on Lookout cannot be converted to DTV EVER. So, they're under the impression that if LCGII is defeated, they will be on track to remove all towers from lookout.

wabisabi, can you shine any light on whether they can just change out the X-mitters in their existing buildings without additional ugly (S)Carefests?

Sorry for the additional ramblings, but...

Originally posted by Geof
Forgive my early morning pre-coffee ramblings, but....
Maybe I am missing something - why should I (we) care if the stations move to Morrison? What matter does it make if they locate their digital facilities on Morrison and leave their analog facilities on Lookout?


Originally posted by Santellavision
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additionally the Mt. Morrison is not feasible because of the limitations the Board of County Commissioners required regarding building size. Further, no improvements will occur on Lookout Mountain without our approval. If forced to locate our DTV elsewhere, we would do so only temporarily. Once the dual transmission period ends, we would convert the Lookout Mountain sites to digital. If necessary, this could be done with no modifications outside of the building.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



There is something appealing to the idea of temporarily transmitting full power DTV from Morrison, then having the stations move to their existing towers on Lookout when the transition is complete. It sounds like the stations believe this can happen without any zoning approval, but since (s)CARE is challenging KWGN in court, my guess is that they would fight this as well.

If that did happen, it sure would be interesting to hear Deb Carney explain to all those Jeffco residents why it was a good idea to oppose LCG 2 when DTV is being broadcast from all of the existing towers, and the doppler radar is still there.

I'm sure this won't happen, but it may just be that the stations broadcast low-power from Republic until the transition is complete. As a matter of fact, I kind of think this is the most realistic scenario. So it seems to me that (s)CARE will just succeed in making sure the DTV transition is slower, and that Lookout will continue to have the same number of towers as now.
The questions are, will KUSA do any HD before then? Will KMGH stay on top of their roof until then? (because the transition will be complete in a couple of months and we'll just move to our tower on Lookout). Will KTVD do anything?

Originally posted by gkanders
Sorry for the additional ramblings, but...

There is something appealing to the idea of temporarily transmitting full power DTV from Morrison, then having the stations move to their existing towers on Lookout when the transition is complete. I understand the appealing part but just to be sure my point is clear: Let the stations build their digital facilities on Morrison and remain there forever. They don't have to move back to Lookout - ever. When analog dies then the Lookout analog facilities can go away.

Example: What if KCNC was fed up with the LCG and decided to join KRMA on Morrison. They'd be on the air in 12-18 months and could stay there forever. If they stick with the LCG they'd have to fight for approval and then be 12-18 months away from being on the air. Going to Morrison gets them on the air sooner, not later, and Morrison is pretty much a "sure bet" whereas LCG2 is not because the LCG2 app still needs to be approved. KCNC has to have a digital antenna somewhere - who cares if it's on Morrison versus Lookout?

I have a Blake JBX-21 antenna that I am not using. It is supposed to be one of the best UHF antennas, but it didn't work out for me (not enough room in our attic). I figure someone in the area might be able to make use of it and hopefully pick up signals that they could not otherwise. If anyone wants it, just let me know. Only stipulation is a willingness to drive to Superior for pick up and maybe an invite to any HD football parties next fall. :)

If interested you can reach me at taylor23@io.com

Steve

The LCG stations believe that Lookout provides a better coverage area than Morrison. That's why they'd want to transmit full power HDTV from there in the long term. Whether it's on a new tower or the existing towers is all that remains to be decided. From what I understand, they wouldn't need to do any modifications to the existing analog towers to make them transmit digital. Not sure about equipment in the buildings though.

The ideal situation would've been Morrison denied and everyone -- including KRMA on a single tower on Lookout. It would've provided the best coverage with the fewest towers. However sCARE forced that option away and have given us the possibility of towers on Morrison and Lookout by so vehemently opposing LCG 1 (which had it's faults, true).

The Morrison tower, as approved by the BCC, can support enough antennas for the LCG stations. The building, however, would have to be expanded, resulting in more hearings. I can hear the sCARE drones now: "See -- we told you they couldn't be trusted. You let them build a small building now they want it even bigger!!!" One other point I think I heard about LCG on Morrison is that while there are enough points for antennas and enough antennas allowed per the written restrictions for the LCG stations, there isn't enough room to have a backup antenna for each station, something which the major stations in town find unacceptable. Of course, any backup antenna would only be powered when a primary antenna is non-functional (unless KMGH, who have been proven untrustworthy, decide to use their backup antenna for a 24-hour news channel).

On a happier note, I got an HDTV Recorder Card for my HTPC -- a HiDTV Pro. This card is able to give me a watchable signal from KUSA-DT with signal strength in the mid-20s. Fabulous. It couldn't pick up KRMA-DT, though. Are they still off the air?

Originally posted by Geof
Let the stations build their digital facilities on Morrison and remain there forever. They don't have to move back to Lookout - ever. When analog dies then the Lookout analog facilities can go away. Like (s)CARE, you are dreaming.

Like (s)CARE, the stations are land owners also and if you are realistic, you'll realize that they are not going to give up their land if the don't have to. They'll move back to Lookout once analog quits and they have said as much. Even if it is just to be spiteful but more importantly because it makes the most strategic business sense. KCNC, KUSA and KMGH own over 5.5 acres collectively and being corporate, will probably not give up real estate unless it is to their advantage. KRMA owns 1.23 acres also, but since they are a public station, I assume they were more willing to sell/deed/whatever back their land to the county. Actually, I don't know what the disposition of their land will be once their move is complete. wabisabi, do you know?

Boy, with all the whining about the stations I've read on this thread over the past few weeks, you seem to forget that these are businesses. You'll lower your stress level if you'll concede to what should already be obvious ... the stations primary concern is not serving the public, that's something they have to do and it's prose to the FCC. These are businesses, corporations whose primary concern EBITA. Yes, I know that as a bussiness they should be concerned about the publics opinion because it affects their product and revenue and such, but they go strictly by statistics and we as HDTV enthusiasts are probably the smallest demographic they have. We are just in a hurry. The stations will get there but will take their damn time until there are statistics, such as DTV eqpt sales, that support the effort.

I'm not saying I'm defending the money-grubbing evil stations, I'm just being realistic.

OK, I've put on my fire suit -- let the flames begin ...

Originally posted by dr_mal
It couldn't pick up KRMA-DT, though. Are they still off the air? KRMA hasn't been off the air at all. I've checked every day and evening and haven't noticed them off-air yet. They have been simulcasting nearly all the time, though. Evenings too. Even forgetting to broadcast a national HDTV show, NOVA.

KUSA was off the air for a couple of days but are back as of yesterday morning, I believe. No HD yet, still.

Actually I think these stations DO care about us. Unfortunately, somewhat in the same manner that Mel Brooks "King of France" character did in "History of the World". PULL!

Originally posted by RonAuger
KRMA hasn't been off the air at all. I've checked every day and evening and haven't noticed them off-air yet. They have been simulcasting nearly all the time, though. Evenings too. Even forgetting to broadcast a national HDTV show, NOVA.

KUSA was off the air for a couple of days but are back as of yesterday morning, I believe. No HD yet, still.

Thanks. KRMA was off during the big snowstorm a couple weeks ago -- I figured they were back up, though.

KUSA was definitely back up last night. I got to see their KUSA-DT on the sidebar for the first time. Wow, they really are Colorado's Leader.

:confused: Just did a rescan (I love VNC) and it picked up KRMA-DT with a signal strength of 9. Maybe I'll tweak the antenna again.

As I understand things, part of the reason that Mt. Morrison won't work for the stations (as the restrictions are currently written) has to do with "news gathering". I think their mobile units, etc. all beam their signal to Lookout for local events coverage, but I'm not really sure how that all works. I believe it also requires a lot of extra equipment in the buildings.

So, although the DTV antennas could possibly be put on Mt. Morrison, everything else would stay where it is for a very long time.

Mark

Originally posted by RonAuger
Like (s)CARE, you are dreaming. Yeah so. The point is which ever way it ends up: Lookout; Morrison; or Lookout by way of Morrison is fine by me. Mission accomplished no matter which route they take. I noted that the Morrison route is quicker, which I still believe.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Like (s)CARE, the stations are land owners also and if you are realistic, you'll realize that they are not going to give up their land if the don't have to. They'll move back to Lookout once analog quits and they have said as much. Again I really don't care (I guess that point got lost in my posts). I will say that it remains to be seen if doing something permanent on Morrison is cheaper than temporarily doing something on Morrison and then moving back to Lookout. They did say they would use Lookout for their digital facilities even if they had to convert their analog facilities but they did say that before Morrison was approved. Either way it's their problem, not mine, and once again I personally don't care which route they take.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Boy, with all the whining about the stations I've read on this thread over the past few weeks, you seem to forget that these are businesses. You'll lower your stress level if you'll concede to what should already be obvious ... the stations primary concern is not serving the public, that's something they have to do and it's prose to the FCC. Believe it or not I am not stressed out at all. Seems like there are a lot of other "whiners" here besides me but if you would rather I just shut up and go away please come out and say so.

Like I said before I don't care if KMGH or KUSA ever get on the air. I am doing fine without them now and will live a long and happy life without them in the future (thank-you very much). KCNC is the only Denver station I watch and I already get their digital signal. I'm set. I do agree that it's all about dollars and cents though. I think you'll find I argued that point (err, along with Neilsen ratings) a year or two ago.

The stations do perceive that they can get better coverage from Lookout than Morrison and if that is true than that's a very big deal to them. That said, it was only a few pages back that KRMA said they'll get coverage from Cheyenne to the Springs with their 70KW (?) setup so it seems likely to me that the LCG stations can get all the coverage area they need from Morrison.

I am not arguing this makes sense from their point of view (POV): I cannot presume to argue from their POV. I have merely stated that from my POV Morrison solves the problem (equally well). Given that, I say we shouldn't ought to dismiss the JeffCo questions and perhaps we should even embrace them. Morrison gets it done from my/(our) perspective. YMMV and that's fine by me.

Originally posted by Geof
Seems like there are a lot of other "whiners" here besides me but if you would rather I just shut up and go away please come out and say so. Never! Yours is one of the few opinions that got me reading this thread a year and a half ago and I respect it.

Mark,
You're absolutely correct. (Duh, I've been out of broadcast TV for a while) The way it works is. The stations local live trucks send their microwave signals to either Lookout or one of the other tall buildings downtown (depending on obstructions) and then that gets relayed back to the stations blgds.

So, they really do need a presence on Lookout. But, that only entails small low power microwave dishes that are pretty much invisible. (Of course, not to Scare)

Next time you're on C470, just north of 285, there's a bunch of microwave dishes on the ridgeline that no one ever notices.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Never! Yours is one of the few opinions that got me reading this thread a year and a half ago and I respect it. Now you're being too kind :) but thank you.

------

I think I need to try and clarify what I have been trying (and failing) to say:
The LCG stations obviously have their agenda and right now that is getting LCG2 passed. Or so they say. KCNC has earned my trust so I don't question their motives behind LCG2 but I am not totally convinced the others don't have their own hidden agenda. Perhaps not an agenda per-se - maybe more of a "gee it didn't get passed isn't that too bad" casual attitude. Ron is right when he says these are businesses and dollars drive decisions. Right now the number of H/DTV viewers doesn't justify spending lots of dinero on H/DTV, especially in this economy where spending - and most notably advertising - are down. While I can sympathize with their plight they have an obligation to do digital but if they can continue to hide behind the JeffCo/SCARE situation the cover is all too convenient. I think we all see that and agree that there is at least a possibility some may be taking advantage of that. We really don't know though. I mean KRMA and KCNC have spoken thru actions whereas KMGH and to a large extent KUSA have also spoken with their inactions. While I want full power H/DTV in this area I really cannot determine what the stations really want (with the exceptions noted above). I have stated my opinions on KMGH so I won't rehash them here. Given what I just said I have concluded to NOT support LCG2. Each of us will have to make their decision to support or not and I have no problem if the majority side with or against me.

However, I think we all need to keep open the possibility that what we want isn't necessarily what the stations want. I think it safe to say that we all want H/DTV. Whether that happens from Lookout or Morrison should be irrelevant to us (as long as coverage area remains similiar, which I think very likely). At this point I am not at all convinced that Lookout is the oinly solution, and it sure as hell isn't the fastest solution. To that end I think JeffCo is right in inquiring about a Morrison solution - at least until it's proven that it doesn't work. Indeed it may better for us if that did happen. With the exception of KCNC I have given up caring about what KMGH and KUSA want. Give me (us) H/DTV per the mandate (and hopefully before Baghdad gets HDTV).

Originally posted by Geof
..........Whether that happens from Lookout or Morrison should be irrelevant to us (as long as coverage area remains similiar, which I think very likely). ........With the exception of KCNC I have given up caring about what KMGH and KUSA want. Give me (us) H/DTV per the mandate (and hopefully before Baghdad gets HDTV).
I almost hesitate to jump in to this debate as it seems like many of the same discussions we have over the last 3 or 4 years. Did someone see the horse move again? Is that why we are beating it again? How long do we have to keep this up?

One comment about Morrison, for those of us in the Boulder area, the closer you get to the Flatirons, the worse the reception from Lookout. Morrison is definitely going to be worse for us. Fortunately or unfortunately, I can't afford to live in the mountains here in Boulder, so I will likely still get KRMA anyway, but many of my friends won't without cable.

As for the other stations, I think I made my opinion clear. I am suspicious of the motives of KUSA and KMGH (can't say about KTVD) as to how bad they really want LCG2 to get approved. I have always agreed with the argument that they are a business, and that is the primary reason I have always had this feeling that they are dancing in their halls every time Jeffco has another delay. I would guess they have, and are still saving a ton of money compared to the rest of the stations. That is one of the reasons I have been so critical of KUSA in my posts. Of course they can be (stay) number one in the market. KCNC has invested in the HD equipment and transmitter, while KMGH has only bought a toy transmitter. I find it insulting that KMGH refused to invest $100K or so to bring DTV to at least some in the community, and even their crackpot lawyer (we expect to get approval soon), admitted it was a financial decisiont not to move their transmitter, even though they have to invest in the same gear when they go to Lookout. KUSA has, at least until now, barely invested a dime. Those are dimes I have no doubt are being spent on their other departments and especially making all those dam* station self promos that drive me crazy. Of course you can be number one if you don't spend the money on DTV that your competitors have done. Whenever I see one of their self promotions, I can only see another day go buy without HDTV for Denver.

There! now! Is that horse dead yet or should I keep beating it???
:D

Originally posted by dr_mal
The LCG stations believe that Lookout provides a better coverage area than Morrison. That's why they'd want to transmit full power HDTV from there in the long term. Whether it's on a new tower or the existing towers is all that remains to be decided. From what I understand, they wouldn't need to do any modifications to the existing analog towers to make them transmit digital. Not sure about equipment in the buildings though.


I don't think Jeffco would allow the stations to transmit DTV even from their existing antennas. They have stated on many occasions that DTV and analog TV are not the same service, and that since the towers for channels 4, 7, & 9 are non-conforming, they cannot change their 'service' without rezoning.

-Wabisabi

Here's a new thought (I think).

We all want HDTV.

I think we're all in the position where we're happy to (or at least don't mind) paying a service provider to bring (HD)TV into our homes.

Why don't we start lobbying Comcast to start offering an HDTV package in Denver? They could have, right now if they wanted to:

KCNC-DT
KRMA-DT
KMGH-DT (multiplying exponentially their coverage area)
KUSA-DT
KDVR-DT
ESPN-HD
SHO-HD
HBO-HD
HDNet
HDNet Movies
Discovery HD

11 digital channels. The rep at Comcast I got on the phone told me they pass any digital channels they can, and as soon as the HD content is there, they'll start sending it.

Does anyone here think getting HD on cable would take LONGER than getting it OTA?

Well obviously cable is the ticket. We've talked about that before. Only I suppose because in general we've been a big AT&T area up until now is why we've gotten the short end there too as cable co's go with a pro HD stance.

But as far as the importance of OTA goes to the populace at this point in time and in the forseeable future is stations dont have to look any farther than the biggest markets that have had digital OTA stations up the ying yang for the past few years to know that theres no money to be made (yet a ton to be invested) by rushing your channels to the market. Or even getting them up and running at all.

What are we up to now after 3 or 4 years of channels generally having been available.. maybe 500,000 OTA tuners in use nationwide? Hardly a clamoring to view them that way. "Everybody" is waiting for cable delivery. We are too. The only difference is many of us, compared to those in other cities, dont necessarily have much choice in the matter.

I sent an email to Debbie Kerley at KRMA asking (complaining) about their simulcasting and that they weren't always showing HD programming. Here is her reply.

I don't know about the 50% simulcasting reg, but if it means not showing available HD programming, I think they are missing the point (especially with an evening simulcast!) and have told them so. For example, I told them to simulcast in the daytime when most people don't watch TV anyway.

Anybody have input on this? I am sure KRMA will listen to our voices:


Hi Dennis,

Things are beginning to get a little tricky with our HD schedule. FCC regulations are requiring stations to simulcast 50% of the schedule starting in May 2003.

To stay in regulation, we have implemented a temporary schedule where we simulcast our analog signal on KRMA DT 18 from 6:00pm-12:00am daily. In the event that a special program is being offered in HD and CH. 6 doesn't have the program scheduled- we will try to air the HD program. But if we do this, we must make up the time somewhere in the schedule to stay in compliance with the 50% rule.

I hope this all make sense. As I said, it is a work in progress and I appreciate your donations, compliments and support. We couldn't do this without your support.

I'll be send another email about a mini-series we will be airing next week.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Have a great weekend.
Debbie Kerley
Programming
Rocky Mountain PBS


Debbie's email is: Debbie_Kerley@KRMA.pbs.org

One comment about Morrison, for those of us in the Boulder area, the closer you get to the Flatirons, the worse the reception from Lookout. Morrison is definitely going to be worse for us.Maybe, but I'm not sure. Morrison is higher while Lookout is lower in elevation and a bit further East. I don't know the terrain specifics between them and the Flatirons though. It will be interesting to see just how well the KRMA DT signal replicates their existing coverage area. With the increased efficiency of digital there may be enough signal level - the question of multipath is unknown (but I suspect that will be an issue for many mountain areas regardless of whether or not the signal emanates from Lookout or Morrison).

I agree with Wabisabi about the same service issue. Whether that holds up in Court however remains to be seen. It's a critical decision that could have HUGE implications or be mostly meaningless depending on how LCG2 fairs.

Isn't Comcast upgrading their infrastructure? I thought I read that they hope to be able to offer HDTV late next year (the url was posted here many pages ago). If they can do HDTV late next year it would beat LCG2 but KUSA couldn't deliver them an HDTV signal because they are not (yet supposedly) setup to deliver HDTV. I doubt CH20 is setup for HDTV either.

Cable is going to take longer than next year to deliver DTV. My insiders have told me that they think it's still 2-3 years out yet. They don't want to spend the money either for a handful of people... i.e us) And to cover most of Denver may take 4+.

Hell, I can't even get their awful digital cable in my area now. (Not that I would want it, I would like High-speed Internet though)

Well that could be Ernie, but Comcast is doing some pretty good things elsewhere HD wise as cable goes so I'm not sure why they'd want to purposefully drag their feet here. I guess they could for any number of reasons but why are they doing anything along those lines (no pun intended) elsewhere at all then?

Regardless, it wont be happening overnight to be sure but I doubt theres any question that certain areas around here will have at least some HD offerings via cable before we'll have say 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 20 and 31 all up and running full power digitally.

Interestingly though it might be some of the very people that are most active in this thread about OTA accessibility that would be some of the last to get it via cable anyway. Like yourself, Geof and others that live in some of the outlying smaller communities/rural areas. It's kind of ironic that perhaps those that live in the "inner city" areas of Denver Metro might be the soonest to get it via cable when theres thousands of homes in those areas that can already get everything we have on air, OTA, if they really wanted it. We just dont hear from alot of those folks here. Either because they dont care about any of it it anyways or because they already get what there is to get and dont feel compelled to bother mentioning it "out loud".

Cable is going to take longer than next year to deliver DTV. My insiders have told me that they think it's still 2-3 years out yet.

Ouch, bad news on every possible front. I thought that Comcast had a different attitude toward HD than AT&T or TCI.

<rant mode on>

Let's see, no cable for 3 years, no Lookout for 3 years, crackdown coming on Expressview, Michael Eisner touting HD at NAB but refuses to get widespread carriage of his new sports HD channel, no MLB so far on HD net, don't care attitude at FCC, no regime change at KMGH, no HD in the evenings on KRMA 18 (even if it is the loop), no HD on KUSA, no FCC approval for KWGN, no sign of KBDI-38, no settling of broadcast flag issue yet (help I'm falling into the proverbial analog black hole), and loss of support for LCG2 (thanks Cindy, thanks a bunch for your lawyer letter full of mistruths).

<rant mode off>

Hey, at least we can be entertained by Deb Carney and crew the next several months.

Don

OT:
If anyone comes across a close-out/demo D-VHS for sale in the Denver area, please PM me.
Thanx!

Ernie, The Big Picture has the Mits on closeout still I believe.
Jeff

The word I got from Comcast (and also from a newspaper article and a short bit on one of the local TV newscasts) was that HD would be introduced in some Denver/Front Range areas late THIS year. So, that probably means "during 2004" for most areas.

Mark

If I'm not mistaken... Comcast gets their HD equipment from the same place as KUSA. ;)

Originally posted by santellavision
If I'm not mistaken... Comcast gets their HD equipment from the same place as KUSA. ;)

Hey, wait a minute, I thought picking on KUSA was MY job here??? Does this mean I can now retire from the thread in peace?
:D

"Trained you well I have, my young apprentice".

Originally posted by JMartinko
Hey, wait a minute, I thought picking on KUSA was MY job here??? Does this mean I can now retire from the thread in peace?
:D

"Trained you well I have, my young apprentice". The only way any of us can retire from this thread in peace is when hell freezes over....err, I mean all our stations are broadcasting high power HDTV (I would not care to bet which will happen first though).

If I'm not mistaken... Comcast gets their HD equipment from the same place as KUSA.

Hey that was funny !
So we are assuming that KMGH is a consultant to Comcast?
If it's true, watch out !

LOL

Originally posted by Geof
The only way any of us can retire from this thread in peace is when hell freezes over....err, I mean all our stations are broadcasting high power HDTV (I would not care to bet which will happen first though).

I guess I thought hell froze over last year. Personally, in terms of enthusiasm for this LCG effort, I think I 'retired' or at least 'lost interest' a long time ago. (Sorry for this nasty pun)...The real truth is, I just don't 'care' anymore. It seems to me now the only real issue left is how to pick up network HD (other than CBS and PBS) from other sources, be it Canada, Colorado Springs, or Cheyenne. If I can't retire, then I consider myself at least "semi-retired"? I think it is time for those with young, eager enthusiasm and a feint ray of hope (not yet extinguished by reality) to get their chance to carry the torch. Frankly, I just feel burned out on this subject.

I sent Don Perez at KUSA a note last week stating that they were well past his previous 30 to 45 day HD estimate and asked him when HD would begin to be broadcast.

Here is his reply:


Thank you for your note. The last critical system has now been delivered. We will start testing the various parts of the overall system during the course of the month. I would expect to be operational very soon. We will likely start over the air test in the next couple of weeks. Thanks


So, the new counter for KUSA HD testing is 14 days from now or April 28! We can only hope.

Originally posted by JMartinko
.....Personally, in terms of enthusiasm for this LCG effort, I think I 'retired' or at least 'lost interest' a long time ago. (Sorry for this nasty pun)...The real truth is, I just don't 'care' anymore.......Frankly, I just feel burned out on this subject. I think a lot of us are there as well. You did say retired with peace though....you can still retire (or semi-retire), just not with peace (of mind that's it's over).

Anyone want to donate, say, a million dollars or so? That way we can file 20 or 30 lawsuits against scare and keep their resources so tied up fighting us, they won't have the time or money to keep fighting the towers...I've got about $100 for the cause. Anyone else? :D

I'm always willing to give my 2¢!

Originally posted by markdl
Anyone want to donate, say, a million dollars or so? That way we can file 20 or 30 lawsuits against scare and keep their resources so tied up fighting us, they won't have the time or money to keep fighting the towers...I've got about $100 for the cause. Anyone else? :D

Sure, I would be happy to donate to that cause just as soon as my Powerball ticket pays off! I have a great fondness for funding lawyers to take other lawyers to court to run up some exorbitant bills. That's what keeps all the lawyers out of our welfare system and off of unemployment.
:D

It appears my complaining to KRMA about their lack of HD and widescreen SD during the evenings has helped.

Last night they showed the widescreen SD show Avoiding Armagedden at the correct times of 7 and 10 PM. At 8, I think they showed the simulcast analog feed of the same program as well. Hopefully they will continue feeding HD in the evening even if they are simulcasting everything.

I also found yesterday by looking at several other PBS cities web sites that many of them are multicasting up to four channels. One is usually a simulcast of the analog feed. When HD programs are aired (sometimes only in the evening), it appears that two of the other three SD channels must be off the air to accomodate the bandwidth needs of HD. I guess this would be similar to what KMGH is doing with their two channels.

Anyone know anything about KRMA's ability to do something similar?

I wrote KRMA a thank you note today and got the following reply from Donna Sanford, Programming:


> Thanks so much for the message you sent Debbie today. She tries very hard to represent the opinions of the viewer and balance them with the needs of the station.
> Obviously, we have been floundering around with the best way to meet the legal simulcast requirements and still give the viewers what they want.
> Your help has been invaluable. We have indeed changed the way we broadcast on 18 and will continue to run PBS programming at night.
> The simulcast will be from midnight to noon.
>
>
> Donna Sanford
> Programming
> Rocky Mountain PBS


At least KRMA listens. Too bad the first digital station in Denver and Colorado's Supposed News Leader aren't as good at responding to the public!

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I wrote KRMA a thank you note today and got the following reply from Donna Sanford, Programming:


> Thanks so much for the message you sent Debbie today. She tries very hard to represent the opinions of the viewer and balance them with the needs of the station.
> Obviously, we have been floundering around with the best way to meet the legal simulcast requirements and still give the viewers what they want.
> Your help has been invaluable. We have indeed changed the way we broadcast on 18 and will continue to run PBS programming at night.
> The simulcast will be from midnight to noon.
>
>
> Donna Sanford
> Programming
> Rocky Mountain PBS


At least KRMA listens. Too bad the first digital station in Denver and Colorado's Supposed News Leader aren't as good at responding to the public! Here here !!

At least KRMA listens. Too bad the first digital station in Denver and Colorado's Supposed News Leader aren't as good at responding to the public!


YA !

Outside of the Tonight Show in HD, there isn't much that NBC sends out to even check on KUSA's "progress".

Jeff

Well it's better than it was last year in Primetime at least... when it was only Crossing Jordan. Now I believe it's ER, Frasier, all the Law and Orders, Boomtown, American Dreams, ED and a couple others.

Strangely though I've never really watched any of them even though I can see them in HD if I want to. Thats partly because I neevr watched any Network primetime programming to speak of before HD came along and since NBC was so late to the party with HD, now I dont have time nor desire to start watching their programming.

What I have seen of it though isnt exactly eye candy as HD goes (except for Leno of course..that looks sweet in HD). Some of it looks downright mediocre in fact. Little bit's of Fraser I've stumbled across once in a while comes to mind.

I have a Hughes receiver and just re-scaned the OTH channels and plugged them back into the Direct TV guide. All the OTH channels show up just fine in the guide with the current programs being shown, except KUSA. The OTH KUSA channel 9-1 on the Hughes receiver always shows "Regular Schedule" in the guide. It never shows the programming schedule for any given time.

Anyone else have this problem or is it a issue with KUSA, since they do not have their HD equipment is place as of yet. Any info would be appreciated.

Originally posted by rmaestas
The OTH KUSA channel 9-1 on the Hughes receiver always shows "Regular Schedule" in the guide. It never shows the programming schedule for any given time.

Anyone else have this problem or is it a issue with KUSA, since they do not have their HD equipment is place as of yet. Any info would be appreciated. Guide data comes from DirecTv and it hasn't yet been updated to include KUSA DT. At some point they will update their database and all will be well.

Not sure this is relevant as other people have got it to work before I did but I finally got around to test my DISH 500 with BEV last night. With the dish sitting on the patio and arm resting on a recycling bin I was able to pull in 60 and 65% for sats 82 and 91 respectively. This is really without precise tweeking at all. Next step is to install dish on the roof.

Thanks to DP1 for posting instructions/experience on the BEV hardware thread!

Cheers!