Originally posted by dr_mal
http://news4colorado.com/localnews/local_story_135125635.html

While not related at all to the HDTV issue, I think it shows a pattern on the part of KMGH. If they're not misleading the federal government, they're interfering in the ability for local police to conduct investigations.

Or maybe I'm just super-biased against KMGH lately and looking for any little spot of KMGH-bashing. Well if they've done any thing outside the bounds of the law they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

This example does seem to suggest another example of unclear thinking at KMGH - perhaps they ought to have their ventilator system checked because evidently something is in the air those folks are breathing.

And, speaking of John Jr - where are you dude? Long time no-postie.....

I'm still here guys. I'm kind of embarressed that I didn't follow through on the KMGH pickett last Superbowl and have been just lurking and pouting in the background.

Good news re: the Planning Commision giving their OK to LCGII. Lets all do cross our fingers that the City Council finally sees the light and lets us radiate the heck out of the sCARE folks. ;)

-John

No need to feel embarrassed. As to the pouting, I think we've all done (or are doing) our share of that. :):(

At least an encouraging sign from Jeffco. I also am in the let's wait and see when I can actually rotate my antenna toward the west camp. Fool me once............

Jeff

Why is it whenever I'm not traveling and get to watch CSI, I end up watching half of it in SD 4x3. Can't we get an after hours phone number to call that rings in the KCNC control room so we can wake up somebody and get him to throw the d&mn switch?

BTW, Leno looks great tonight with Jim Carrey on. This is the first time I've had enough signal (barely) to watch it, albeit with a variety of dropouts.

Originally posted by Jetlag
Wow! Just when I was considering a move to 'Canada', along comes this surprise. ... I am going to delay my relocation and see what transpires.

Is Canada going to adopt HD? If so, what is their timeframe?

You can get all the wonderful Canadian channels right now here in Denver. And... did I mention tht you can get allo the networks in HD too!

www.expressvu.com

Originally posted by markdl
There's no way that they are going to move to Squaw, just like there's no way that they will move to Mt. Morrison.

From looking at the Denver DTV Map (http://bricklin.org/AVSForum/DenverTV.htm) I can see why Squaw Mtn. is bad - foothills between it and Denver, but is Mt. Morrison any worse than Lookout Mtn.? There doesn't appear to be any hills blocking either to the east, but what are their elevations?

I don't think Mt Morrison has any issue with converage or reception. For the stations, the issue is they own land on Lookout, not on Mt Morrison. For JeffCo, they would have to rezone Morrison for the increase in buildings, fix the road for the additional traffic, etc.

Not to mention the "layed-down" tower of BCDC couldn't support all the stations; issue with Red Rocks for a 700' tower; still in JeffCO so same battle maybe different people; etc.

Morrison is a decent enough location -- the issue is with the new tower that was approved by JeffCo.

The designers of the new Morrison tower (which replaces two towers -- one from Lookout and one from Morrison) had originally planned the tower and associated building to be big enough to accomodate other potential users (I think it was an unspoken thought that LCG might move onto the new tower if it got approved). However, when the JeffCo board of county commissioners (BCC), in their infinite wisdom, got ready to approve the tower, they made the Morrison folks agree to written restrictions that limited the size of the building and the number of antennas allowed on the tower - pretty much eliminating any chance of further consolidation onto the Morrison tower. If they had approved the tower as designed with additional capacity, perhaps one or more of the LCG stations could move onto Morrison.

In other Morrison tower news -- so far the sCARE lawsuit isn't holding up progress. They're still in the planning stages, but they're optimistic that they'll still be able to be on the air 18 months from their approval date (that would be approximately 15 months from now).

Hey guys,

I could never remember the URL for Ernie's great Denver DTV Info site, so I went ahead (with his permission) and bought http://www.denverdtv.info and forwarded it to his site. $10 is such a drop in the bucket compared to all the money I've spent on HDTV...

It's working now for me, but could take up to a day to fully propogate through the DNS system.

-David

David,
This only cost $10?? How long is it valid?

1 year. Ernie is still hosting; all I paid for was the domain name. Any requests for that name get directed to Ernie's site.

http://www.godaddy.com is the registrar (place I bought the name from).

That's cool. I knew one could buy domain names but I had no idea it was so inexpensive. Next year I'll pick up the tab............but somebody will have to remind me......

That's the beauty of deregulation and competition. Used to be $35/year with a 2-year minimum. Now it's down to at least $8.95 (possibly lower -- I stopped looking for a better deal when I found godaddy) with a 1-year minimum.

Now if only network TV was open to competition -- we could get our HD ABC and HD NBC from providers who wanted us to watch their stations (just trying to get back on topic here :) )

I turn on 16-1 to see if by chance Law and Order SVU was on in HD and low and behold, it is!! Looks pretty good. I did notice a slight lip-sync problem

Both SVU shows and now Leno looking good.

Here's hoping that the horse race goes well ... my darkhorse pick is Cherokee's Boy. Oh, I also hope it's not raining too hard at Pimlico and the HD by NBC & KUSA goes well too.

Don

Were they inserting local commercials?

I fired off an e-mail to the KUSA GM (his e-mail is posted at their web site if you click on "Contact Us") begging him (yes, in the e-mail I told him I was begging) to give us at least the season finales in HDTV so that we could end the season with a good taste in our mouths. I like to think that made a difference.

I think most of the NBC season finales were this week. My HDTV arrived Friday, just in time to watch repeats. Oh well - I still have to get an HD tuner later anyway. Did KUSA end up broadcasting any of the prime-time shows in HD? So far, I gather only an occasional Leno or late-night show has been in HD.

Assuming all of the LCG II and Mt. Morrison applications get approved and antennas built, will the new hight and power levels be superior to the current analog levels? For example, with only rabbit ears, before I had cable, I could get 4 and 9 fairly clearly, 7/6/31 a bit less clearly, 2 somewhat blury, 20 with some fuzziness, and 12 with quite a bit of snow (if I recall correctly). If I will be able to get digital signals of all the local stations without dropouts with a settop antenna, I would rather not go through the trouble and expense of having an installer run wire through the walls and install a rooftop antenna but either live with a settop antenna if it pulls in ok or at worst a double bow tie or yaggi hangling from the 2nd floor overlook temporarily until EOY 2004.

L&O: CI finale is this Sunday, L&O finale is this Wednesday. Those are the finales I was most concerned about.

As to reception: a good test case is Fox. They're the only ones broadcasting with any real power and their digital signal eminates from Lookout. Compare your analog 31 reception with digital 32. I believe their digital channel is only broadcasting at about 1/3 power, but it reads as a 70-80% signal quality on my receivers. With digital, once you've got the picture (general consensus is around 40% or higher, you've got it), you've got it. No snow, no fuzz, either it's there or it isn't.

Your reception report is interesting: Analog 12 right now broadcasts from Squaw -- the alternative site sCARE wants all TV towers moved to. Sounds to me like the only available signal from there right now is your worst reception. Interesting.

Channel 20 currently broadcasts from Morrison. The rest are on Lookout. I wouldn't worry too much about "some fuzziness" on your analog channel 20. With the nature of digital TV, if you can get even a borderline (40% strength) signal, you'll have a perfect picture. With a borderline analog signal, you'll have fuzziness or snow.

And for me, it was well worth the expense and time of putting the antenna on the roof for the minimum 2 years it's going to take to get full power from Lookout. I've spent quite a bit of money on my HDTV setup; I intend to get as much programming as I can for the next two years.

David,

I saw the link to the Denver DTV site works great!
Do you think we should get some sponsors like Soundtrack, Listen-Up or The Big Picture?

Originally posted by dr_mal
And for me, it was well worth the expense and time of putting the antenna on the roof for the minimum 2 years it's going to take to get full power from Lookout. I've spent quite a bit of money on my HDTV setup; I intend to get as much programming as I can for the next two years.

Thats what I said to myself 3 years ago. Hence going with BEV even if it's cost .50-.75 a day or whatever over that time. I mean hey, if I'm going to drop a few thousand for HD viewing capability to begin with you can bet I'm going to make sure I have something to watch. You'd think the same would go for anyone else that drops 4-8-12K or more into their system. Unless they're like the millions out there across the country that bought an HDTV yet have never bothered with any means at all to be able to see actual HD on it, instead content with DVD's or whatever. But otherwise if one really does want the HD programming why wouldnt they drop another 4-5 hundred and not worry about what may or may not be available locally and all the politics behind it.

Then over time even as more local stations became available to me, it still has virtue for a degree of timeshifting (not like theres any other "cheap" means to do that simple task with HD). And then to top it all off, if and when I decide I dont want or need it anymore I could prolly get 325.00 back out of it. Seems like a no-brainer to me and I've always wondered why more havent gone that route. Course maybe theres alot of people who have and I just dont know about it.

BEV:confused:

It's been over 6 months since I last watched analog by antenna, so I'll have to re-confirm my sketchy assessments. I'm only 8 miles SE of downtown, so I'm going to attempt settop antenna reception once I get an HD tuner. Once they are all at full power, chances are I may be able to get everthing without much else. Meanwhile, I had to replace my ancient 13 year old 20" TV which is about to die, and I saw no reason to buy a big-screen tube that wasn't HD capable. Lack of income is why I have to put off further purchases like HD tuner, etc. Hopefully by the time I have a real income, the Dish PVR/OTA tuner will fit all my needs.

BEV is an abbreviation for the Canadian DBS provider that Ernie linked for you on the last page after you asked about the goings on in Canada.

Originally posted by DP1
Then over time even as more local stations became available to me, it still has virtue for a degree of timeshifting (not like theres any other "cheap" means to do that simple task with HD).

I had a choice recently: BEV 6000 for about $600 or a HiDTV Pro and 250 GB hard drive for about $600. I went with the latter so I could timeshift network programming as it comes online here. Since I went HD, I find I'm watching more CBS and less ABC and NBC (we'll see how KUSA does next year...). So after having a TiVo for a couple of years, I was dying not being able to watch programs whenever I feel like it.

Ernie - unless you feel you need sponsors to help pay bandwidth costs on your end, I don't see a need. If Geof comes through with his $10 pledge next year (:) ) we've got the domain for two years now. It might be nice to get more publicity to the cause, though. I can see people heading to denverdtv.info if they see that address at a potential sponsor's B&M store.

It would be nice at future hearings at the Taj if someone could have little pamphlets with the denverdtv.info address for people to take home and read a site biased in the right direction :D

Just for fun (and after reading Dan's quickly-deleted post) I checked availability for sc-a-r-e.org with the thought of doing a parody site. But when I started brainstorming what an off-the-wall, crazy, devoid-of-any-intellectual-thought site would look like, it wouldn't've been any different from c-a-r-e.org :D :D :D

Hahahaha, you saw that huh? Yeah I just went ahead and deleted it myself because I didnt like the formatting...not because I thought it was uncouth or anything.

Hahaha, I think that would have been great (could be great?) s-c-a-r-e.org. LOL Just link that domain to their existing c-a-r-e.org. It would work just perfectly that way... lol!

-John

So it looks like the COS CBS affiliate has gone full-time DTV now (not all HD yet). Has anybody tried aiming their antenna that way yet for curiosities sake?

zeedave,

Are they full power in COS? Since I get KCNC with virtually never any dropouts, I hadn't even thought about it.

Jeff

No worries about our Denver DTV site. I don't have ot pay for bandwith. If we were to get some national attention... maybe ;)

I'm out of town, but my Dad caught a story in the Rocky on either Fri or Sat about the FCC possibly getting involved in our mess. Anybody see that?

Anyone else having issues with 9-1 (16-1) or 6-1. 9-1 is gone [just tonight]and 6-1 is blank all day.

4-1 69% (Solid, No problems)
6-1 77% Black Picture
9-1 0%
31-1 86-93% (Solid, No Problems)

My Ant may have moved a bit off as I have been out of town for a few days... but I am sure 9-1 was on the air this afternoon.

No problems here.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
No problems here.

No I am really confused. I am getting 6-1 on 80-3? Still can't find 9-1/16-1.

It seems to be a problem with my Samsung SIR-TS160, Toshiba DST-3000 hooked back up and it works great...

Anyone else using a Samsung SIR-TS160 and having problems?

I saw 9-1 go off the air as well about 9:30. I still could not get 9-1 this morning.

KRMA broadcasts their channel 6 upconvert (or sometimes their local high def stuff) on 18-1 during the day and then broadcasts the PBS network feed on sub-channel 3 which will re-map to channel 80-3 on some ATSC receivers. The software within the receiver determines how it treats the re-mapping. On some receivers (like my built in DTC-100), channel 18 remaps to channel 80 and channel 18 goes blank when you do a channel search in the evening.

Don

Anyone know how to hard reset a Samsung SIR-TS160?

It got the channels while I think 9-1/16-1 was out last night, and now it won't get it back, no matter how many times I scan for it...

Unplugging it deos not help...

Thanks if anyone knows...

Does anybody know what is going on at KUSA regarding their HDTV programming? First of all, they HD programming seems intemittant (e.g Leno in SD last night). Also, Frasier last night was broadcast in wide screen DTV format but the PQ did not look to me to be HD. My 480P dvd's looked better. Also, why have shows like ER not been broadcast in HD yet?:confused:

Wahlin, KUSA still does not have their switching automated so that HD and cuts from national to local could happen automatically. (See a previous post about this.)

Leno usually has been in HD and I have no idea why it was not last night. I never watch Frazier, but the PQ on the Frazier HD program has always been terrible. What you saw is normal. ER not in HD is because they don't have their automated switching in place.

Net, we are not sure they care a whole lot about the 1,000 or so people that might watch KUSA-DT. You might send the engineer Don Perez an email with your comments: don.perez@9news.com

Thanks for the e-mail address. I've sent off (my best attempt at) a polite note to request the season finale of Law & Order in HDTV tonight:

Good morning Mr. Perez,

I just wanted to let you know I was disappointed not to see the season finale of Law & Order Criminal Intent in HDTV last week. I’m hopeful that tonight’s two-part Law & Order finale will be in HDTV. I know you’re having troubles inserting local commercials into the HDTV stream, but the way I see it, either there are enough HDTV viewers to justify paying someone to manually switch over to local commercials, or there aren’t enough of us to really make a difference if the local commercials aren’t inserted at all into the network stream.

My viewing habits have moved significantly towards KCNC since they went on the air with HDTV programming – I really enjoy Ed and the Law & Order series, but I’m unlikely to try any new NBC shows this fall unless they’ll be in HDTV. In fact, I didn’t look at any new series on KUSA this year due to the lack of HDTV. I did watch every new series on KCNC, at least once. Do you think you’ll have the switching equipment (which I understand is the weakest link in your HDTV signal chain) in time for the fall season?

Thanks again – I can appreciate that you’re in a tough position between management and the viewing public. I’m trying not to shoot the messenger :)

-David Maloney
Brighton, CO

Hi guys, I've got a couple of questions...
I finally got a replacement TV from Philips yesterday (34PW9818) after 2 months with the old one in the shop. I hooked everything up and was hoping to see Leno in HD. So am I right in assuming that Leno was SD on Tue.? Actually, I'm sure it was since it had bars. Also, was KUSA using light grey bars yesterday (with no KUSA logo)? I've seen so many places that say grey will not reduce uneven phosphor wear, that I was kind of surprised.

Two other notes. My new TV seems to shift all signals on the 480p/1080i inputs about a quarter inch to the left. KDVR had the black bar only on the right (but the 480i version out of the SIR-T150 was spot on).
Also, I guess I'm going to see the "foilage drop". My signals all seemed the same, but I had a lot more dropouts (as we move around the room, since I've got an indoor antenna). I dread actually drilling holes (for cable) or something to get an outdoor antenna for only the next couple of years, you know, since LCG II approval will come this spring :), but I may have to do that.
Thanks for any info, Greg

KUSA recently took their silly logo off the left bar. Leno was SD on Tue. He has usually been HD lately, though. Programs in prime time have rarely been HD.

I notice the 4:3 screen on the DT stations frequently is off by a little bit. Never really thought about it as I assumed the station had the control over what it looked like since it is effectively a 16:9 screen with them adding the bars, not my tuner.

Last year, I had to raise my big yagi antenna higher on the ROOF to keep getting KMGH. Other stations are OK with a Rat Shack double bow-tie.indoors.

Well, I turned on L&O last night at 8, and KUSA wasn't sending it in HD, so I turned it off. But, when I tuned over at 9, the 9:00 episode was sent in HD, and looked pretty damn good throughout. Good job, Don, and thanks for sending at least one of them to us in HD!

Anyone know any status concerning the last two (s)CARE "claims" against KWGN? ANy date for a trial? I'm just wondering how long until they may be able to start broadcasting.

And thanks for the info, Dennis. It does seem that some of the time the stations have their stuff moved around, but I actually looked at one of the demo loop pieces on KRMA and kept changing inputs. I could clearly see some "picture" on the 480i output from my T150 that is cut off on the left side of the 1080i output (didn't notice this on the right side). Then I popped in LOTR, and noticed in progressive mode the writing (title, menu, etc) is just a little closer to the left than on the 480i output. On my Philips, the "HD-capable" inputs are 480p/1080i only, so I have my DVD hooked up to a HD input and a standard one (same goes for my T150) -- I do this to get the zoom modes on the 480i, which is locked out on the HD-capable inputs)

Thanks, Greg

Greg - sounds like you have different geometry settings on your television for 480i inputs vs 480p or 1080i inputs. Hence why the side of the picture looks like it's getting cut off in 1080i mode. The geometry is adjustable, but I can't tell you how to do it for your set. Check out the hometheaterspot dot com forum for information about your set. They may very well have step by step instructions.

Thanks for the pointer Mark. There seems to be a small number of Philips posters at all of these forums, so info is scarce. I will be digging more over the next few weeks/months.

FYI Everyone, I posted this on the Northern Co. thread, but thought some folks here may be interested...


I spoke to Mike Brown again today via e-mail. He is the KTWO (NBC) engineer (Chyenne KKTU channel 33 analog, channel 11 digital). He had some interesting and positive news. I asked him about their DTV status out of Cheyenne. Here is his response:

Actually we are still having some intermittent satellite delivery problems in Cheyenne with the DTV. Its been off for a couple of weeks. It looks like we are trying to have the new digital signal on the air by July 30th. It will be moved to west of Fort Collins, and will be a full power, covering all of Denver clear up to, and covering Cheyenne. Because of the weird combinations of DMA's, Equity is not sure what programming will be aired yet.

I hope that helps a little. Don't hold your breath on that date, everything seems to move a lot slower than intended.

I then asked him if the 7/31 date was for the current low power setup or the high-power Ft. Collins setup. His response:

The low power should be back on next week. The high power is July 30.

I'm pretty sure 7/31 won't happen (these dates always seem to slip), but in Feb they were talking about a full year to get a high-power setup, so this is pretty cool news.

Greg

The NBA Conference Final game is being broadcast in HD tonight. We are currently viewing the broadcast on ABC KMGH 7-1 but it seems the broadcast is being upconverted, and not being shown as true HD. Any comments.

Yeah, it's in HD at the Network level..someones asleep at the wheel locally.

The pre-game part with the Nuggets getting scr*wed once again by the NBA was not in HD. The network went HD only when the game went to the Continental Arena. Once I knew the Nuggets are going to get 'stuck' with another European prospect instead of LeBron or Carmelo
[rant mode on](who could have guessed Labron would stay 'at home' in Cleveland and Carmelo would be in neighboring Detroit so the two high school competitors can play each other a dozen times a year in two of the nations top TV markets....as Carmelo said at half time, its almost like it was rigged-of course we KNOW it is not. Besides, since the Denver market doesn't even have an HD channel for the NBA, they couldn't let LeBron go to the Nuggets. OK conspiracy theorists, you heard it here first, KMGH's lack of HD is partially responsible for the NBA not letting them have the first pick).[/rant mode off]

After all that excitment it hardly seems worth watching the NBA, HD or no HD. Of course, for most folks in the metro area, KMGH has made the decision much easier to make. Thanks again KMGH, I hope there is a big crowd in your parking lot tonight and also for the NHL finals too. Can't wait for MNF next fall either, can we!!!

Originally posted by JMartinko
Can't wait for MNF next fall either, can we!!!

You know, I'm one of the folks who didn't get very excited about a "picket" in front of the studio last year (sounded like too much "work"). But it would kind of be fun to have a "HIGH DEF TAILGATE" party in their parking lot. Maybe we could all show up (and jam their lot) on one of the early Monday nights (before it gets too cold), bring lawn chairs and (anyone willing?) an HD projector and a Screen . I'd bring my reliable ol' Double Bow Tie Antenna.

I'd even make a big sign stating that "We're here because you can't get the Pathetic HD signal from KMGH outside of their Parking Lot". We could even tip off the KCNC Tech team to come get pictures of us. Wouldn't that be fun?

I'm sure we couldn't do THAT since they own the lot and could kick us off, but it would be fun!

Originally posted by JMartinko
The pre-game part with the Nuggets getting scr*wed once again by the NBA was not in HD.

Hey, at least "the fix" is better than I thought. I thought Darko would go to a bigger market too, and the Nugs would pick 4th in a 3 "star player" draft. Oh well, another top ten pick form outside the US for us (Rentius *shudder*, Skeets *I'm not trying to spell that correctly*, Nene, Darko). Of course if Det. takes Darko, we get Mello, who may be the best player in the draft anyway. I'd love that.

Here was something interesting over in the programming forum.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20030522/media_nm/media_cbs_digitaltv_dc&e=2

FCC Chairman Michael Powell (news) also on Wednesday sent letters to the networks, television stations, cable operators, satellite television service providers and consumer electronics makers seeking an update on their efforts to move the digital transition forward.


I wonder if Cindy got a letter finally from Mikie and if it was, was it a form letter? Just asking.

J.M., I think that 7News should investigate those water logged ping pong balls. Nuggets should trade skitish and the #3 pick for K-Mart (Kenyon Martin). He is the next superstar.

Don

For those who may want to try getting something from the north, KGWN-DT (CBS) is on the air from Cheyenne (transmitting on channel 30, maps to 5-1). Not sure if it is a testing phase, or "for real." I get a good 90-ish signal strength (Echostar 6000) from Fort Collins. See more info in the Northern Colorado DTV thread.

Thanks to Mark Gibson in Longmont for posting that he could see a signal there from the back side of his antenna.

Mark

I gave it (30 from Cheyenne) a quick try today but didn't have any success. Was it on the air this afternoon? My antenna is mounted on the south side of the house and when I turn it north it is looking straight at my roof, so I didn't expect much anyway. I would have to elevate it more or move it to see north. That is an option I may seriously take a look at soon. Did anyone else down this way have any luck???

John,

It was on the air this afternoon, and was still on when I checked awhile ago. Unfortunately, even the CBS Monday HD lineup is being shown SD stretched, with messed up audio (though it appears to in perfect sync, amazingly!).

Mark

Wow! Seems they had been OTA with something less than full power. Around midnight the ch. 30 signal here in Longmont went from around 15 on E-86 meter way up to the mid 80's (using my Denver-pointed yagi). I switched over to my RS omni - pegs at 100! No breakups or audio drop outs. And dolby-digital too! I believe it should be fairly a strong signal in Boulder now.

Edit - at about 1:45 am the signal went back to its low power level again.

Hmm, I'll have to check that out when it goes back to high power. My antenna is pointing sort of north so I imagine I'll be able to get something.

In other news, I re-aimed to try to beat my signal strength of 6 on KMGH and was able to get it up to 18 with the antenna pointing up at nearly a 45 degree angle. Since that is still not a usable signal strength and I couldn't figure out how to fasten it like that anyways, I put it back where it was. While I was up there I pointed it south and was able to pick up a signal in the high 80's on channel 46. Got just a blip of 3-6 on the Colorado Springs channel 11 too. I'm using a VU-90xr near Hampden and Havana.

I hadn't even considered it, but I may try hooking my DBT up on the roof to see if it can outperform the yagi. I can't believe people so far north are getting signals with the indoor antenna. I must be in a real low spot of town.

--Dave

Woah daddy. Thats what a digital signal is "supposed" to do. I'm getting 30 down here in south Littleton at 85% on a Dish 6000 and it bout pegs 100 on my Mitsu tuner. My antenna is pointing north by default from this location of course.

Now they just need to bail on the stretching of the picture.. ;)

I am also receiving KGWN-DT from Cheyenne. I am east of University and south of Exposition. I use the RS bow tie in the attic and have a panny stb. Too bad they are not an ABC affiliate.

Doug

Originally posted by Doug888
I am also receiving KGWN-DT from Cheyenne. ......Too bad they are not an ABC affiliate.

Doug Amen.

Dan,
Aren't you near Chatfield and Kipling? I'm located at Kipling and Ken Caryl and I can't lock on to the signal. I tried tonight but the best I got was 61 but quickly dropped on my 6000. I already receive KCNC but was curious if I could bring in the picture of KGWN.

Anybody watch JAG on KCNC last night? Was it in HD? They advertise HD w/Zenith, but on my analog cable feed, it was 4:3, not 16:9. I'm surprised they would down-convert an HD feed and shrink to 4:3 instead of just putting bars above and below. Even though I don't have an HD tuner yet, it's nice to be able to zoom 16:9 programs with bars to full-screen on my widescreen HD-capable tube.

Originally posted by jcardona
Dan,
Aren't you near Chatfield and Kipling? I'm located at Kipling and Ken Caryl and I can't lock on to the signal. I tried tonight but the best I got was 61 but quickly dropped on my 6000. I already receive KCNC but was curious if I could bring in the picture of KGWN.

As far as I can tell their signal went off the air around mid morning yesterday because I havent even sniffed it since then. I noticed that as the morning went on yesterday my signal strength dropped a few points (though was still really good.. not sure how far it would have dropped during the heat of mid day had it stayed on) until it suddenly went down to zero a little while later.

Originally posted by HDTimeShifter
Anybody watch JAG on KCNC last night? Was it in HD? They advertise HD w/Zenith, but on my analog cable feed, it was 4:3, not 16:9. I'm surprised they would down-convert an HD feed and shrink to 4:3 instead of just putting bars above and below. Even though I don't have an HD tuner yet, it's nice to be able to zoom 16:9 programs with bars to full-screen on my widescreen HD-capable tube.

I don't believe that any of the HD network programs are shown letterboxed on the SD feed of them - they are all cropped.

Originally posted by DP1
As far as I can tell their signal went off the air around mid morning yesterday because I havent even sniffed it since then. I noticed that as the morning went on yesterday my signal strength dropped a few points (though was still really good.. not sure how far it would have dropped during the heat of mid day had it stayed on) until it suddenly went down to zero a little while later.

Whenever I have looked, they have been on. They were on last night, still showing the CBS lineup in stretched SD, with audio problems. I have noticed some signal strength variations--from the high 70s to low 90s here in Ft. Collins on my Echostar 6000.

Mark

Not getting anything on 30 (5-1) NW Wash Park with a CM4228 and E*6000

Originally posted by mbuchana
Whenever I have looked, they have been on. They were on last night, still showing the CBS lineup in stretched SD, with audio problems. I have noticed some signal strength variations--from the high 70s to low 90s here in Ft. Collins on my Echostar 6000.

Mark

Oh ok Mark. Well not like I checked it a bunch, but I did a few times. And I'm not getting jack this morning either.

Maybe for a time they had the power cranked up way too high and thats why I got it to begin with. I mean, lets get real, reading high 80's on a Dish 6000 (and 100 on a Mitsu) from perhaps over 100 miles (not exactly sure where it's located up there) away? I dont care how big of a Yagi I have cause it's not terribly high and I'm down in a swail to boot.

Does seem funny though that I went from all to nothing (not even a blip).

And no, I wasnt dreaming, I actually was watching the channel yesterday morning. ;)

Dan,

After seeing your post yesterday, I tried but got nothing on 30 last night. Could it have been some kind of UHF skip?

Originally posted by Phil T
Dan,

After seeing your post yesterday, I tried but got nothing on 30 last night. Could it have been some kind of UHF skip? Perhaps it bounced off a cloaked Romulan warbird .... :p

Originally posted by Geof
Perhaps it bounced off a cloaked Romulan warbird .... :p Don't be silly. If cloaked, it wouldn't reflect RF. It must've been the mysterious Tholians.

I haven't seen it posted yet, so I thought I'd mention:
Pete McNally said the dates for the Board of County Commissioner hearings are set for July 1, 8, 22. The times are still TBD. In case some are unaware of the process, the set of hearings just completed were with the Jefferson County Planning Staff. They recommended approval to the board by a vote of 4-3. The board convenes its own hearings and may have a decision on the rezoning application by the 22nd of July (or 8th, if it doesn't need a third hearing).

Originally posted by RonAuger
Don't be silly. If cloaked, it wouldn't reflect RF. It must've been the mysterious Tholians. True enough, might be those pesky Klingons too....

Or, perhaps Dan just imagined the whole thing due to an "RF-rich environment" causing a lack of sleep (think of the 10's of thousands of JeffCo county residents who'd be unable to receive DTV but able to sleep at night if the LCG stations move to Squaw) ....:rolleyes:

Could be tropo I suppose, Phil. I'm not familiar enough with the concept (especially as it pertains to our dry ass climate) to know. Even at that though I wouldnt figure it would be such high readings..perhaps just something above "useable".

Oh well..not the first time I'm clueless and certainly wont be the last.

Originally posted by RonAuger
In case some are unaware of the process, the set of hearings just completed were with the Jefferson County Planning Staff. They recommended approval to the board by a vote of 4-3. The board convenes its own hearings and may have a decision on the rezoning application by the 22nd of July (or 8th, if it doesn't need a third hearing). [/COLOR]

Actually, the last hearings were with the Planning Commission, not staff. Planning staff presents the case along with staff recommendations to both the Planning Commission and Board of County Commissioners (BCC). The Planning Commission makes a recommendation to the BCC. Then, the BCC makes the final decision.

-Wabisabi

Interesting article for those of you that may have missed it. No wonder Denver is still considered a "Cow Town" by many observers. What a joke living in Denver trying to get OTA HDTV. Consumers purchasing HD sets in Denver are in for a rude awakening when they realize what HD programming is actually available in the Denver area. This whole HD technology wave is a joke and has mislead consumers into purchasing thousands of dollars worth of equipment. I will be the first to admit I got caught up in all the HD technology. If I could do it all over again I would of stayed away from HDTV until the programming was sufficient to warrant the purchase.

Here is the article:

High-def low point
Denver one of two major U.S. cities without HDTV capabilities

By Steve Caulk, Rocky Mountain News
May 12, 2003

A combination of hurdles has turned the Denver area into the blackest hole for high-definition television among the nation's major cities.

Zoning conflicts, community groups and mountains to the west have left "high-def" equipment owners in Denver with a wimpy selection of signals.

Of the top 30 markets, only New York joins Denver without primary digital TV signals, and New York lost its service only because of the destruction of the World Trade Center.

While local over-the-air broadcasters have made some headway in efforts to keep from falling too far behind, the minuscule content available to high-def customers makes the $3,000 investment on a 40-inch Sony hardly justifiable.

That especially applies to customers who live more than a dozen miles from Republic Plaza, where most of the broadcasters have their low-powered transmitters.

And anyone outside the Denver city limits who wants to watch NYPD Blue in high-definition can just about forget it, since KMGH- Channel 7 transmits from the top of its five-story building at Broadway and Speer Boulevard.

"Channel 7 is basically broadcasting to their parking lot, and I don't live in their parking lot, so I don't get that (signal)," said high-def customer Geoff Grieble, of Roxborough Park.

Deadline delays

The Federal Communications Commission has established several deadlines - and extended all of them - for broadcasters to switch to a digital signal, compatible with high-definition. The frequencies vacated by such a move are earmarked for the federal government.

Full compliance for all FCC digital standards is set for 2006, but the broadcast industry expects that deadline to get pushed back.

"It could be four years before we have full-power high-definition," said Ernie Santello, a producer and director of high-definition programs who tries to pull a signal from his Gen-essee home. "Maybe the FCC will step in and pull people together and get something done. But it's sad because the rest of the country has high-definition and we don't."

Santello measures Denver's failure by FCC standards. Technically, people in Denver can get high-definition content from the Dish Network and DirecTV satellite-TV services. EchoStar charges its Dish Network customers $699 for the equipment (two dishes and a special receiver), plus $2 extra for the pay-per-view movies available in high-definition.

Dish has seven channels in high-definition, and DirecTV has four. Cable TV provider Comcast has none, but plans to offer the service in the second half of this year on an undisclosed scale.

All the local broadcasters offer some kind of digital signal, even if it's barely strong enough to pierce a window screen.

But the broadcasters have been ordered to replicate coverage of their less-sophisticated analog service, meaning they have to set up equipment that will transmit to all homes that now watch TV via rabbit-ear antennas.

Tower dilemma

The only practical way to do that, said the Lake Cedar Group representing Channels 4, 7, 9 and 20, is to replace at least three existing towers on Lookout Mountain with one new, shorter tower. Current zoning laws do not allow a retrofit, said the Lake Cedar Group. And a site on any other mountain - including Squaw Mountain, where one group wants the development - would translate into less-effective reach of the signal, said the Lake Cedar Group's Marv Rockford. -KDVR- Channel 31 also wants to transmit from Lookout Mountain, which is in Jefferson County.

The Squaw Mountain group disagrees about the Lake Cedar Group's characterization of the effectiveness of the signal, which has created a war of engineering studies.

Meanwhile, a community group at Lookout Mountain said the new tower will create a problem of radiation emissions, with wattage increasing to 9 million from 1 million.

And, counterintuitively, the smaller tower doesn't help the situation, said Deb Carney, attorney for Canyon Area Residents for the Environment, representing about 3,000 homes. The terrain in back of the proposed tower would expose more homes, she said.

"Denver is near-unique in that you have the rollout of digital TV impeded by a small group of (residents)," said Rockford.

Sharing a site

The situation is also unique, said an FCC source, in that so many local stations are so focused on the Lookout Mountain site.

"It's not that typical for all stations to share the site," he said. "So when one station has a problem, they all have a problem. They're all in the same boat."

The FCC eventually could step in and force a solution, but Ken Fellman of the FCC's Local and State Advisory Committee in the Denver area said the FCC would prefer a grass-roots solution.

"My perception is, (FCC members) are watching closely what's happening in Jefferson County," Fellman said. "The latest proposal is getting close to a decision . . . and I think if the FCC is forced to make a decision, the local governments won't like it."

Meanwhile, local TV stations have wrestled with the dilemma over how aggressively to pursue stop-gap solutions to the demand for high-def signals. Most of the expensive equipment at the top of Republic Plaza, for instance, becomes obsolete as soon as the stations complete their permanent towers.

Expensive technology

KUSA-Channel 9 rolled out new equipment last fall, including a transmitter, video switcher console, video server and digital routers. The routers alone cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, said Don Perez, director of technology and operations at the station.

"We're over $1 million (in investment for digital TV), and that doesn't include the routers," he said. "Millions will be spent to move from one technology to the other."

He compared the process to "replacing the engine in your car while you're driving down the interstate."

KUSA debuted its low-power, high-def signal in December with little fanfare. Perez figures the signal could reach as far as Highlands Ranch under ideal conditions - but those ideal conditions never materialize.

"We want to get it resolved," he said. "I keep trying to remind people that whatever is decided (in regards to a permanent tower), that's what everybody is going to have to live with for decades to come."

Frustrated viewers

Grieble bought his high-def set almost two years ago, anticipating that the content would increase and the signals would begin emanating from a new tower.

By now, he is so disgusted with the lack of progress, he has launched his own personal boycott of Channels 7 and 9.

"I'm very disappointed with the situation here in town, and my viewing habits have changed," he said. "I have gotten to the point where I don't even tune in KUSA or KMGH. I don't watch them anymore. They can fall off the face of the planet for all I care."

He added, "I don't believe they really have any good motivation to get converted over. I believe KUSA has not wanted to spend the money. Times are bad, revenues are down, and they were hiding behind the Lookout Mountain (issue)."

His frustration does not extend to KRMA-Channel 6, which recently received approval to transmit the digital signal from Mount Morrison.

"The general manager at KRMA seems to have a vision for high-definition," said Grieble.

Demand for digital

High-definition offers better sound and a clearer picture with more detail. The digital element creates an opportunity for interactivity.

Nationally, manufacturers have sold 766,000 digital TV sets in the first three months of this year, but digital does not necessarily translate into high-definition.

The Consumer Electronics Association has no breakdown of sales by high-def sets or by state. In the Denver area, Perez said there might be hundreds or thousands but the number still does not yet represent the kind of demand that will help drive the immediate development of the technology.

rmasestes, you might want to check out this forum, page 223 from 5/12, to get further information on this article. Geoff is actually Geof, a member of AVS forum.

From my perspective, right now, the programming is pretty good if you can get KCNC, KRMA and even KUSA OTA. KMGH is really a joke but an added bonus if you can get them as well. It looks like Dish and DirecTV are going to announce some sort of HD package in the near future to include a few additional channels in addition to the standard HBO, Showtime, HDNet, Discovery options.

Glad you are here talking about the problems. For me, I am very happy to have my HDTV, even with all the Denver Lookout Mountain confusion.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Geoff is actually Geof, a member of AVS forum. And don't forget Ernie "santellavision";)

Well that article in the Rocky Mtn News was pretty discouraging about HD in the Denver area. I live in Highlands Ranch and am getting ready to purchase a front projector either sanyo plv-z1 or panasonic LT300u, and was excited about HD. I currently have the att/comcast motorola digital cable box......with no digital audio or video, not even s-video, only composite RCA outputs (don't get me started). So this box is basically worthless to connect to the home theater setup. I was thinking about Direct TV but if I have to pay all this money for equipment/service and then get 4 channels of HD. Should I just wait for the Comcast HD box to come out later this year and stick it out with the crappy motorola box? Or get a Direct TV set up that has component and optical out so I can enjoy a digital tv broadcast on the PJ and just forget about the HD until it is more readily available? Pretty new to all this home theater stuff since you guys all live in the area and are up to date on the HD , your advice would be great.

Thanks :D

Zach

Originally posted by RonAuger
Don't be silly. If cloaked, it wouldn't reflect RF. It must've been the mysterious Tholians.

Refresh me please - I don't remember who the Tholians are. ;)

Maybe someone with a superpowerful antenna could send a message to either them or the Klingons to beam up all 3,000 CARE residents and erase and reprogram their engrams to support LCG. Too bad Fox is only going to support SD. Oh wait, X-Files is dead, or rather comatose now that Mulder is gone. Fox had better get on the HD bandwagon - or the NFL should send the broadcast contract to an HD supportive network!

Maybe someone with a superpowerful antenna could send a message to either them or the Klingons to beam up all 3,000 CARE residents and erase and reprogram their engrams to support LCG.If only it were that easy :(

FYI: One of the better episodes (IMO) from the original ST series involved the Tholians and their "web".....

Zack,
I don't know if I could wait for Comcast to get off their butts. I had DirecTv before my HDTV so upgrading the receiver was a natural for me. Between DirecTv offerings (Showtime HD, HBO HD and HDNet) and the rumored additions (HDNet Movies, ESPN HD and Discovery HD) along with being able to receive KCNC DT and KRMA DT I do not regret buying the HD receiver. You would proabably have better luck with the local channels (than me) and be able to get KUSA DT as well so there is content available. There is no doubt that once you get that projector going you'll want to feed it HD - often :)

Ernie S. Hey I notice the status on WB2 has changed on the DTV Info website. It did say KWGN has won 10 of 12 suits that CARE brought up... Now it says awaiting final FCC approval. Did the other two suits get resolved?

Thanks, Greg

Originally posted by Geof
FYI: One of the better episodes (IMO) from the original ST series involved the Tholians and their "web"..... The Tholians also make a cameo appearance (voice and ship only) in the "Enterprise" episode "Future Tense" (http://www.startrek.com/library/ent_episodes/episodes_ent_detail_127586.asp)

Zack,
I bought my HDTV 2 years ago. I first settled with std DirecTV and after about 6 months, decided to get a multi-LNB dish and try to see true HD on my set. Then after about another 6 mos. and finding this forum, I decided to try to get OTA DTV. It took alot of tweaking out here in Elizabeth to find what works, but I now get KRMA, KCNC, KUSA and (also-ran) KDVR at barely enough signal to get over my receivers threshold. It has become a hobby, of sorts, to try pull in every HD channel I can get. I now get 8 channels, seven of which contain HD content at some time. I've found I can survive on an HD diet and eat junk food less than half the time.

Of course, if you read enough of this thread, you know what is available, you know what it takes to get it, and I'm sure you've researched the cost. So you'll have to make your own decision. I just think if you buy a HD display device, it won't be long before it subtly and empathically persuades you to acquire even one HD signal! ;)

I recently moved from downtown to roughly 5 miles North of Downtown right near the intersection of 36 and Broadway. It is a Denver mailing address with 80221 zip code. I thought for fun I would hook up my $15 non-amplified indoor antenna that sits on top of my tv. The TV is on the lower level of my house on the North side (opposite downton of course). To my surprise I receive every DTV channel available out of the Denver area with the exception of our wonderful (heh heh) ABC affiliate. If I were to go to the trouble of buying a big rooftop antenna do you think there is a chance that I would receive ABC or should I even bother trying?

I thought I would mention how dissapointed I was to see the quality of non-hd channels (most of them) that I get with my directv connection. I have had my Sony SAT-HD200 receiver for a while but could not get a signal where I lived downtown and just got the directv hooked up since my move last weekend. I hate to admit it but digital (yeah right) cable looked better on my tv than many of the directv channels.

Jeremy

Jeremy - I seriously doubt you'd be able to get KMGH because all of the buildings downtown are blocking their signal from your location. But, as always, you never know until you try.

I hate to break in here with a positive comment (:D), but did anybody expect the BCC hearings to start so soon? I for one didn't think they'd start until fall. Based on the time they have allocated (9-5 and 6-10 on the first day alone), I think it could be a real possibility to have LCG2 approved by the end of July. We'll see if the commissioners want to take a month afterward to think about it like they did with Morrison...

Originally posted by dr_mal
I hate to break in here with a positive comment (:D), but did anybody expect ........

OK, I will let your one positive comment slide, but remember, if it ever happens again you will be permanently drummed out of the corp and forced into exile forever locked in a Tholian Web which blocks all HD signals to your home. We just can't have that kind of positive talk disturbing the normal course of this thread. Consider this your FINAL warning.
:D

Thanks Mark. I think I will choose not to climb on my roof in that case. I'm sure it will only be a matter of weeks before KMGH finds a way to get us a stronger signal!

On a side note has anyone got any news on WB and when they might start broadcasting in digital?

Jeremy

dr_mal - where'd you see the times announced? I had figured they wouldn't start before the 8th or 9th of July.

I am very well aware of the feelings that some of our group here have towards KMGH (and to a certain extent KUSA). And I'm very aware of that those feelings are justified in most cases.

But...there is going to massive opposition raised by the Scare people to this application. There are going to be huge numbers of people coming out of the woodwork talking about how their next door neighbors died from the cancer caused by the radiation, how the noise at the tower site has caused their neighbor's dog to jump off a cliff, how we really need to wait for another 25 or 50 years before doing anything because some study in Lithuania says that cell phone radiation might be harmful to lab rats, so of course that applies here, how Squaw is such a better site for everyone to go to, how police and fire departments can't talk to residents and bases because of all of the interference, how the residents have had to install lead shielding around their houses and can't see the sun anymore because of it, how the LCG group is secretely performing radiation experiments on school children and causing horrible mutations in them, how when the new tower falls over it's going destroy all of the houses from here to Nevada due to its size, how residents have to watch channel 31 only on 172 channels because of the interference, how the radiation levels are going to go up to the level of a small nuclear explosion, how the tower radiation will surely bring about a nuclear winter and usher in the next ice age, how the oil storage tanks are sure to catch fire and cause the entire state to burn, etc, etc, etc...you get the idea.

The planning commission very narrowly voted to approve the application, and only because 4 of its members were intelligent enough to not be swayed by all of the bullfeces spewed by the opposition. Will 2 of the 3 BCC's also be intelligent enough not to be swayed?

I'm not saying that the negative feelings towards KMGH are unwarrented or unjustified. But, is there anyway that they can be put aside for the month of July? Without our support and participation in this process, there won't be anyone speaking in favor of this application to the BCC except the guys sitting in the front row in the suits. And according to the hundreds of people that *will* speak for the opposition, they are the enemy and should be taken out to the parking lot and shot. If we don't speak up for the application, there won't be anyone to counter the crap that will be spoken. The public television supporters won't be there. The various Catholic groups won't be there. The average joe on the street won't be there. It comes down to us. Now, I agree that it shouldn't come down to us, but this entire battle with the county and the residents shouldn't have happened either. If we stood up together, and supported this publicly in front of the commissioners, we'd have a decent showing at the hearings. Our 30 or 40 contributors (or more if the lurkers come out of the woodwork as well) might be enough to bring a semblance of common sense to the attention of the BCC and make them realize that the 3000 people that live on the mountain are not the only ones affected by their decision.

I'm going to fight for this application as hard as I can. I'm not doing it for the stations, because frankly I really don't care about them, I'm not even doing it for myself, because I can already receive all of the low power stations, including KMGH. I'm going to do it for those of you that can't receive the low power signals. I don't think it's right that you who live more than 10 or 15 miles away from downtown will have to spend $1000 or $2000 or more to "go north" to get HD network television. That's the main reason that I'm going to do it. For those of you that are out on the finges, isn't fighting for yourselves enough reason to support this? I know good and well that some of you already have invested the $$$$ to get the signals from elsewhere, but what about the rest of you? We already know that if this application fails and is denied, the stations are done fighting and will remain low power until the analog is shut down in 2008 or 2012 or whenever it happens (you don't really believe it'll happen in 2006 do you?). And if that happens, you won't be receiving HD until then. Isn't that fact alone worth fighting for?

The other reason that I'm going to support this is due to a conversation I had with David Layne (KCNC chief engineer for the new people that have recently joined in here) the night of the last planning commission hearing. He is *very* worried that when KWGN gets their Scare case resolved and goes live, that they will completely overpower KCNC's low power signal. He's not just a little concerned and curious to see what will happen...he's downright scared that it's going to happen.

The biggest issue that is going to cause LCG the most trouble is the Squaw Mountain site. I really appreciate Ernie stepping up and committing to provide and display the Squaw reception data map that he put togther from the testing last summer. That will be a big help. But, we need more ammunition that can be used against Squaw. The problem is that the RF engineer that the county hired to investigate the viability of Squaw has come back and said that Squaw was a whole lot better than he thought it would be, and that it would provide just about exactly the same coverage area that Lookout provides. We all know that that's a crock of ****, but unless the BCC hears that from us, they won't know. We need all of the red dots on Ernie's map to speak up to the BCC saying that they are a real world HD viewer, know how to point an antenna, know where Squaw is, and couldn't get the signal from there. The more people that say that, the better chance that the BCC will listen to it, regardless of the crap that flows from the other side.

So, I'm asking. Please join me in July to voice support for this application.

Originally posted by markdl
dr_mal - where'd you see the times announced? I had figured they wouldn't start before the 8th or 9th of July.

At my favourite website, http://www.c-a-r-e.org :p They've consistently had the most up-to-date dates and times for hearings at the Taj. Plus it's amusing (from a distance) to see some of their propoganda.

Originally posted by markdl

Will 2 of the 3 BCC's also be intelligent enough not to be swayed?

They were for Morrison -- this proposal has stronger consolidation impacts. We know one of them is a definite No regardless of the facts. That's OK. They need to really focus on making a strong enough case so that the other two BCC members can make the right decision.

Originally posted by markdl

I'm going to do it for those of you that can't receive the low power signals. I don't think it's right that you who live more than 10 or 15 miles away from downtown will have to spend $1000 or $2000 or more to "go north" to get HD network television. That's the main reason that I'm going to do it. For those of you that are out on the finges, isn't fighting for yourselves enough reason to support this?

Good point, but we got ridiculed by the commissioners when we got up there and testified that their decisions impact people outside JeffCo. Case in point: after Mark's testimony, a certain commissioner asked him: "Well, you've got mountains in Larimer County, don't you? Why can't we just put the tower(s) there?"

Originally posted by markdl

The other reason that I'm going to support this is due to a conversation I had with David Layne (KCNC chief engineer for the new people that have recently joined in here) the night of the last planning commission hearing. He is *very* worried that when KWGN gets their Scare case resolved and goes live, that they will completely overpower KCNC's low power signal. He's not just a little concerned and curious to see what will happen...he's downright scared that it's going to happen.

I don't want to lose KCNC-DT. I may just show up after all. We've been lied to so many times, though. I hope KCNC isn't scare-mongering me. I think I can trust David though. He's always been upfront and decent. I have no reason not to trust him, but I'm a little gunshy right now.

Great post Mark. You've got me thinking -- that's dangerous :)

Originally posted by dr_mal

They were for Morrison -- this proposal has stronger consolidation impacts. We know one of them is a definite No regardless of the facts. That's OK. They need to really focus on making a strong enough case so that the other two BCC members can make the right decision.


2 members of the BCC were convinced for Morrison, but like I said in my earlier post, Morrison had A LOT of people speaking in favor of it to the BCC. Unless we stand up and speak, LCG isn't going to have the people speaking for it, and the decisions of those 2 BCC members may sway the other way, colsolidation or not.

I don't want to lose KCNC-DT. I may just show up after all. We've been lied to so many times, though. I hope KCNC isn't scare-mongering me. I think I can trust David though. He's always been upfront and decent. I have no reason not to trust him, but I'm a little gunshy right now.


I understand about being gunshy, believe me I do. But I also know that David has always been the absolute most upfront with us out of any of the station people we've ever talked to. He's always told us the straight story, even when it wasn't what we wanted to hear.

Originally posted by markdl
For those of you that are out on the finges, isn't fighting for yourselves enough reason to support this?I'm out on the fringe and I've already said I'll testify on July1, as long as I'm not on a business trip. Great post Mark!
Originally posted by markdl
We need all of the red dots on Ernie's map to speak up to the BCC Just to set the record straight .. it's Ron's and Microsoft's map.
I'll update it with the then current respondents by July 1 (currently 65).

Sorry about that Ron. Didn't mean to miscredit the map.

no probs.

I was doing some flipping tonight and noticed a couple of oddities:

KDVR-DT appeared to be off the air. Usually I get about a 78 signal strength, but 0 tonight.

KUSA-DT appeared to be broadcasting ER in HDTV. I'm glad they finally got their act together for the summer rerun season :rolleyes:

Good news to hear someone can get all but KMGH from 5 miles out. I've been waiting for the Dish 921 PVR thing to get HD, but sounds like I'll need another OTA HD tuner with that to watch OTA while recording another OTA. Now that the local big 3 are broadcasting HD, it might be time to buy a cheap OTA HD tuner right now even though I won't be able to time-shift and not miss primetime shows until September (when the PVR is supposedly coming out). I'm 8 miles SE of downtown, probably a couple of miles closer to KMGH. How cheap can you get a new OTA HD tuner for? Any recommendations?

Originally posted by RonAuger
I'm out on the fringe and I've already said I'll testify on July1, as long as I'm not on a business trip. Great post Mark!
Just to set the record straight .. it's Ron's and Microsoft's map.
I'll update it with the then current respondents by July 1 (currently 65).


As the quote above indicates, Ron will be updating the coverage maps by 7/1, and he'll be testifying (probably) as well. Anyone new to this thread that hasn't already posted his/her results please do that. Just go here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587) to post your results. Identify your location as precisely as possible (preferably address) either in your post or PM Ron.

Also, we only have 11 data points on analog channel 12 reception. Everyone who hasn't posted his/her channel 12 results please add that as well. Since (s)CARE is sure to push Squaw, this will be a good way to see real-life coverage from that location. If we could get that map up to 65+ data points, it would be great (although it would admittedly be a lot of work for Ron).

Thanks, Greg

Fellas.

Well I am moving to South Florida and I must leave this High Def mecca. I am keeping the KRMA HDTV demo loop on while the house is being shown. Do you think an HDTV ready house is of extra value, or is it only of extra value to AVS Forum members. (I know I spent a lot of time wiring and arranging and pointing, etc.) I just wonder if that will get recognized. What do you guys think ?

Doug

"H-what?" is likely the most common response.:)

I think keeping the KRMA demo loop going gives you the best shot at demonstrating the added value we all know it provides. Whether that'll translate into any extra $$$ -- who knows.

I think you can safely figure a ROI of about .1%. A friend recently sold his house (in Scottsdale, AZ) in which he had a relatively high end (he estimated including equipment around $60K) dedicated theater in the basement with seating for 9. He had 2 offers the first month, each was less than asking price, and they both expected (written into the offer), that the theater would come with it completely intact including all of the equipment. rigghhhht!

So, what do you the chance of receiving the Stanley Cup in HDTV tonight from KMGH is? Or are they going to forget to flip the switch like the last basketball game?

Well, I was able to watch the hockey last night. The picture was pretty good, although not nearly as crisp as I've seen on HDNet when they've done hockey. KMGH roayally butchered the sound for the first hour of the game. Sounded like they audio encoder was completely offline and had failed. I had to listen to the audio from 17-2 while watching 17-1. But, after the first hour, they did something, and the sound cleared up for the rest of the game.

It was unwatchable here (since I am on the fringe). I had a 51-55 earlier in the day but after the storms came through I was only getting them in the 40's on my 6000. I may need to get back on the roof and tweek the antenna again. It seems like a change in humidity and wind can really make a difference.

If our ABC affiliate can't (won't) move their antenna can they at least pump a couple of more watts into the thing?

I can't recall seeing anything lately on KMGH that does not have video, or, more frequently, audio breakups. Sometimes, I have had the "strength" meter on while watching and the audio breakups don't appear to have anything to do with signal strength. Unlike, CBS, PBS, and maybe NBC, there isn't anyone at KMGH to complain to in a constructive way. They really don't care! I would bet that if they were giving a direct feed to Comcast that the picture and sound would still be screwed up.

I can't recall seeing anything on KMGH ... Ever!!! :eek: doh!

Anybody have a marketing slogan for the upcoming LCGII hearings?

Vote Yes to
Consolidate

Vote Yes for Less...
Towers!

Don't be Scared
Vote Yes!

Come 'on, you guys are creative. How about some T-shirts or hats with towers on them... just kiddin'!

FYI,
My Attic antennae has been in the same position in the attic for about 2 years. It use to pick up KMGH consistently with minimal breakups. starting 3 months ago, the signal got progressively worse. So, I went up and readjusted yesterday. I'm getting a 8-10% stronger signal since I readjusted. Just an FYI. I live near Broadway and Highlands Ranch Blvd.
Now, if KMGH can just fix their audio issues. No center channel, and mucho audio breakups.
I guess I'll keep trying to Reach Rick Cradock at the station today.

Greg:

Two days ago, I sent a message to the KMGH Technical Questions choice on their website about the poor audio. Of course, no response. Whenever they send the 5.1 sound, they tyupically only send the left and right front channels, no center, no rear. Sounds exactly the same as their analog stereo signal on channel 7.

I don't know how to send email messages directly to Cradock. Do you? And does he listen?

I haven't personally noticed any change in their signal lately. Perhaps the annual leaves growing messed you up. The Stanley Cup last night had pretty good PQ, but not as good as HDNet hockey. Audio was not in sync, but I read on AVS that was a national problem.

Just got off the phone with Rick Cradock at KMGH. He wasn't aware of the audio breakup problems. Said he is going to look into it. Said that the absence of a center channel is how it comes from ABC. So, I guess I'll have to switch my receiver to prologic for none DD material.
Dennis, I always call the station and ask for the manager of engineering. I do this for KCNC, KDVR, and KUSA.

Between the big DirecTV announcement (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=266030) and the LCG2 hearing at the Taj, looks like July 1 will be a big day for HDTV in Denver!

Do I need to point out that that's Canada Day? Ironic considering the only way for most of us to get network HDTV is BEV :)

Thomas_Craddock@kmgh.com

For contact information on any station, click the Denver DTV Graphical Timeline link in my sig, then click on the station.

I haven't been able to pull in a signal from KDVR-DT the last few days -- is it just me?

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Whenever they send the 5.1 sound, they tyupically only send the left and right front channels, no center, no rear. Sounds exactly the same as their analog stereo signal on channel 7.

I'm going to buy an STB before getting center, sub, and surround speakers. I have a Dolby Digital receiver and l/r speakers. Will I need a digital cable for this setup? Will the receiver automatically blend the center and/or surround information to the l/r channels or simply send the l/r info? Will I be loosing info v. just stereo broadcast sound?

No, you won't need the optical cable until you have your surround speakers, but you may want to go for it now anyway. (Especially if your receiver has an unused audio pair that can be selected as desired). Without the optical cable, use the L/R audio output from the STB to your receiver. If your receiver allows for specifying 'Stereo' vs. 'Pro Logic', select 'stereo' and no decoding of the signal to center/rear/sub will occur. For a DD source, use of the analog l/r would be best to assure that all audio will be present in your speakers (in the 'Stereo' mode). Using an optical cable leads to improved sound quality because the digital-to-analog (D/A) conversion would be done in your receiver (which probably has a better audio converter than the one in the STB) as well as DD sound. It makes a large difference in my setup when listening to the Music Choice audio. I find it is almost as good as having a CD jukebox. Since YMMV, you may want to experiment to see what works best for you.

Edit - opps, I forgot - the STB may even have a DD on/off setting (the Hughes/Toshiba/Mitsubishi does) to force Pro Logic over the optical cable if DD isn't desired.

I haven't been able to pull in a signal from KDVR-DT the last few days as well. Just tried again at 3:30pm, Wednesday June 4th. No luck, Zero strength

OK, just called Fox and talked to Skip in Engineering. He said that they're having problems with the cooling system and had to shut the transmitter down. They're battling with the manufacturer, and expect a replacement part tomorrow at 10:30. This is a different problem with the same cooling system that prompted the shutdown of the signal last week. He also said he was glad to hear that someone was watching :)

Not to sound picky, but I thought their philosphy was to not fix the audio sync and to stretch the analog (such as during the news) to some wierd 14:9 to keep people from watching and say "See, it's a waste to go digital". Actually, I'd like to see them fix those problems, myself. Thanks for the update.

I heard the 14:9 was because it looked better in the Plasma monitors that they have in the lobby.

If you want to catch a superb HD broadcast, watch the Fosse Great Performance show on PBS. It was on last night and was the best HD I have ever seen. The real surprise was that it was in Dolby 5.1 and was superbly done.

It repeats on Saturday at 6 PM MDT and 9 PM MDT. Check it out.

Anybody else noticing a lot of pixelating (SP?) on KCNC lately? The signal strength is fine, but there are frequent dropouts for me. Sound stays OK.

Hmm... I was thinking my problems with KCNC were just happening to me. The signal strength looks great -- comparable to KRMA and KUSA-DT, neither of which are giving me problems at the moment.

OK, just called and asked them what was going on -- they're aware of the problem. They suspect it's something with the transmitter and are having people out to look at it.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
If you want to catch a superb HD broadcast, watch the Fosse Great Performance show on PBS. Here here!! I watched it last night also and was very impressed. Although I had lots of audio/video dropouts due to my borderline signal level which were annoying. And oddly enough, Leno was perfect, even though KUSA is usually my "most borderline" signal, sometimes unwatchable.

Missed the Fosse show, I was busy watching the NBA finals in HD no thanks to KMGH. Plan to watch mostly those and the Stanley Cup Finals if I am home the next few days, including the SCup Finals on Sat. night. FWIW, the hockey isn't up to HDNet standards, but it still beats the "H" out of the SD version. I sure wish more folks in this thread could see it. I haven't noticed a problem on KCNC, but I have had it on very little the last couple of nights.

Guys,

I am looking forward to getting home and seeing the KMGH broadcasts of both the hockey and basketball. I am currently in Madison, Wisconsin staying with friends who have a 19 inch standard def TV and the basic DIRECTV package ( no locals ), so I have enjoyed absolutely ZERO on televesion this past week.

My only pleasure this week was the DIRECTV announcement about ESPN-HD, etc. Need to get home!!!!!..........

Jeff

I have not been able to get a decent signal from KMGH-DT in several days. I used to get a great signal in 1999 for Monday Night Football in HDTV. I only live about five miles from Speer and Lincoln in SE Denver.

Last night during the wind, I could not get a lock at all. Lately, it has been more difficult to get a signal but I still can usually get a good lock with occasional breakups.

I would bet it is the trees growing along Speer Blvd this year with all the moisture. Maybe some of the trees are taller than their toy transmitter. This is really frustrating when there is actually something good to watch on ABC like the basketball and hockey playoffs every day.

Originally posted by Hot
I have not been able to get a decent signal from KMGH-DT in several days. I used to get a great signal in 1999 for Monday Night Football in HDTV. I only live about five miles from Speer and Lincoln in SE Denver. Not to worry. According to KMGH they will secure the necessary approval from JeffCo this Spring (meaning sometime in the next two weeks) and will be on the air with full power shortly.

Supprt 'em if you want boys. The second KMGH drops out I'll be right there with you.

It is a little better today. On Monday a new 36 inch dish will be installed at my southern Canada home to pick up a good signal from Bell ExpressVu's Nimiq 2. My 18 inch dish was not locking onto the HDTV East and West signals so I ordered a larger dish. I do not think I will worry about KMGH-DT and their low power signal when I am watching ABC from either Boston or Seattle.

I'm getting a pretty strong signal from the CBS station in Cheyenne again this morning.

Atmosphere must be right again. I'm sure it'll prolly be gone here in a little bit.

Thanks KUSA for doing HD for all 3 horse races. Track was a little wet yesterday though.

Nick Carter seems to have a problem though. He has been holding up four fingers in freeze frame for the past 3 hours (no French Open final on ch. 16). Hey weekend crew, wake up.

Don

Originally posted by gkanders
As the quote above indicates, Ron will be updating the coverage maps by 7/1, and he'll be testifying (probably) as well. Anyone new to this thread that hasn't already posted his/her results please do that. Just go here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587) to post your results. Identify your location as precisely as possible (preferably address) either in your post or PM Ron.

Also, we only have 11 data points on analog channel 12 reception. Everyone who hasn't posted his/her channel 12 results please add that as well. Since (s)CARE is sure to push Squaw, this will be a good way to see real-life coverage from that location. If we could get that map up to 65+ data points, it would be great (although it would admittedly be a lot of work for Ron).

Hmmh, not sure about signal strength levels for analog, but here's my picture on analog signals. Recently moved my old analog set up to the bedroom closet - using rabbit ears, it has to go through the west outside wall, but it's now a 2 1/2 floors above ground instead of 1 floor above ground with windows to the west. I think I may have posted here earlier from old sketchy memory on analog, but these are my current results ranked best to worst picture-wise:

2,4,7,9,20 pretty clean
31 some ghosting
12 some cross-hatch (#) patterns across the screen and some audio static
6 slash patterns diagonally across the screen

I'm about 8 miles SE of downtown 80247 ZIP (formerly 80231 - they split the code), pretty much due east of Lookout Mtn. I'm surprised channel 31 with more than 10x power of 7 or 9 is worse. Also surprised 6 is worse than 12, but 12 has twice the power, although 2 & 4 are broadcasting at the same power as 6 on Lookout.

Hot - I've been having problems with KMGH for the last couple of weeks as well - my 6000 can't lock onto it at all, and my hipix cards are just barely getting enough signal to lock (ala around 35).

Hello all,

Recently I have been highly disgusted with my cable services bill and the amount of service, or lack of service, that we get. About a year ago I bought a HDTV from the Big Picture with the intention of sometime getting an HDTV receiver. It seems like that perfect time is now but I am still very confused and need more information on how to get what I want to get.

As a refrence for location I live on the south side of Highlands Ranch at the end of Broadway and have a pretty clear view of downtown Denver. I have 4 TV's in my house and want each to get at least basic cable. So I was thinkning of getting the lowest form o basic cable (ie. channels 2-52) from Comcast to stream through teh cable lines to my TV's. Does anyone know the cost of this? I was then planning on getting a DirectTV or DishNetwork satelite system for my OTA and HDTV reception for the one TV in the basment. What is the cheapest way to get DirectTV or Dish's HD packages? Will this work and this the best economical way for me to get what I want? Thanks in advance.

As an informational point only, after returning from vacation this weekend, my KMGH signal has been rock solid. I watched almost all of the NBA finals game and it was fine. I checked signal strengths and it was actuall two points higher than previously. Maybe they re-oriented their wire hanger :)

Jeff

I watched the NBA finals game last night in HD too and have some friends dropping by tonight to watch the Stanley Cup 7th game, but what does any of this have to do with KMGH??? They aren't broadcasting a digital signal are they????

Welcome jasongolf!

You might want to consider getting a Dish Network/DirecTV system for all your TV's. It might be cheaper than having both cable and Satellite. They both have specials all the time. Contact them to find out. You can have up to 4 different receivers (I believe) and they only charge like $5. per extra receiver. Even after purchasing the equipment, that might be cheaper than $50/mo for cable over a year or so.

As far as HDTV, You will have to put up either 1 or 2 satellite dishes (1 for DirecTv & 2 for Dish, soon to change to one) a large Over-the-Air (OTA) antenna on your roof to pick-up the local low-power DTV signals available. (Do not worry about HOA problems, the FCC has rules that allow everyone to have OTA antennas/dishes and they cannot stop you)

As far as local HDTV, you should be able to receive CBS, PBS, NBC, FOX (not in HD) and possibly ABC (if you're lucky)

The differences between Dish and Directv are the programming choices. There's lot of changes in that coming this summer too!

Good Luck, you'll never regret going HD!

I am very curious how much HDTV content is on the Denver area channels. I see from reading the posts that most folks seem to get ch4, ch6, ch9, and ch 31 with ch 7 tough. So I write off ch7 and keep my comments to 4, 6,9 and 31. Thus the questions, just how much "hdtv" content is there. Seems like 31 is zero, but cant tell bout the other 3.

Now why do I ask, well just got a new TV a nice 51" HDTV ready Samsung, but when checking out upgrades needed to go to HDTV today at CircuitCity I find

Sanyo Direct TV/Off air Receiver $509 open box special so to speak
BUT requires yet another $5 monthly fee to DirectTV :(
Triple LNB Dish for Direct TV $99
Installation $149 and porbably need someone to do it, needs new cable runs to other side of house etc
And, another $10.95 fee effective July 1 to DirectTV for the HDTV channels

thus

$757 plus some tax so call it $800 initial cost and $15 a month, and who knows about my attic ant, as Im in Castle Rock (good location at 6500 feet but wont know until its plugged in) and may need to add another couple hundred there.

IS IT WORTH it???? Seems nice but really pricey and really curious just how many off air shows are in true HDTV format.

Thanks to all in advance.

See this thread --> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164671 for what's on in HD on the various networks.

In Denver, KCNC (CBS), KMGH (ABC) (hahaha), KRMA (PBS), and KDVR (Fox EDTV-only) are in sync with the above summary. KUSA (NBC) has been spotty with what they're passing in HD -- Leno has been pretty consistently in HD, but their primetime lineup has been hit or miss. Hopefully they'll be mostly "hit" this fall.

KWGN (WB) is expected to start half-power service fairly soon now.

And of course, DirecTV has that new HD package July 1. I finally took the leap when I saw HDNet was doing NHL games in HD. All the stuff I can get OTA now was gravy for me.

WElcome skyview:

You probably need to put a good UHF antenna on your roof to have a good chance at OTA from Castle Rock. (HOAs cannot keep you from doing that.) Are you in a position where you might have line of sight to downtown? If so, you've got a good chance to get the OTA stations. I am sure you are SOL on ABC though.

One point to be made is that there is more and more HD content being announced frequently now, at least available off satellite. If you buy a new HD STB and it replaces one you already have, there is no additional $5 monthly fee. You might call DirecTV and see if they will install a 3 LNB dish for $49 if you sign up for the new HD package. Check posts on the AVS Programming Forum. Good luck!

I havent watched alot of KMGH lately but I'm getting 17-1 just fine right now when I tune to the hockey coverage. Actually about as high or higher as I've ever seen it.... at least at the moment. Reading like 65% on my Dish 6000 and 51-58 on my Mitsu tuner.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dr_mal
[B]At my favourite website, http://www.c-a-r-e.org :p They've consistently had the most up-to-date dates and times for hearings at the Taj. Plus it's amusing (from a distance) to see some of their propoganda.

Why don't we get a good lawyer and class action sue c-a-r-e.org for the money we lost on our HD equipment by Denver not following the top 20 city rule. We can give all the money to the lawyer and put everyone from the forum on the suit.

I actually was wondering who would be the first with the joke about not getting KMGH after my post. jm wins, of course, with the fastest keyboard time! :)

Jeff

Originally posted by jeffden
I actually was wondering who would be the first with the joke about not getting KMGH after my post. jm wins, of course, with the fastest keyboard time! :)

Jeff

Thank you for a great honor Jeff, I am truly humbled. I would, of course, like to thank the members of the Academy who voted for me. But I must note that none of this would be possible without the help of all those "little people" along the way, like the folks at KMGH who give a new and very special meaning to the words "little people".

:D

Question to Dish 6000 owners...

Is it just me, or does the KRMA channel number switching driving you crazy? On the 6000, everytime they change from 18 to 80, I loose it in the guide. I know they are doing the 18 for local and 80 for the network feeds. Did we ever find out why?

Also, there was an article in the Rocky about Comcast starting HDTV service by, get this... "September at the latest". Yeah right. I think both KMGH and Comcast have hired the former Iraqi PR guy.

Rocky Comcast Article (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/technology/article/0,1299,DRMN_49_2024970,00.html)

On KUSA this morning, they had a quick report on Starz offering a channel that was the "Next best thing to HDTV" called "High Resolution TV." They didn't mention a thing about their HDTV channel.
Unfortunately, it's reporting like this that confuses the average consumer. To them, High Resolution = High Definition. When they view it they probably don't think it looks that much better than regular NTSC and would be less likely to purchase a new HDTV.

Actually, It's three new channels. Got this info from the encore website.

STARZ! HD, STARZ! Hi Res and Sharper Movies HD.

STARZ! Hi Res will provide a bandwidth-efficient alternative to the Hi-Def feeds of STARZ! HD.

Not sure what Hi-Res will be, but i'm assuming it's probably a 480p feed.

jcardona -- agreed that that kind of "reporting" only serves to confuse. What else would you have expected from Colorado's "leader" :rolleyes: One of my pet peeves is when places like ESPN Sportszone (downtown) install a butt-load of 16x9 plasma screens and then show standard def programming stretched to fit. I would be most people who ascend the escalator and take a look think to themselves "heck, if THAT's what HDTV looks like, I'm certainly not going to go and spend anything to get hooked up. Those HDTV enthusiasts must be real losers to care about that"


Ernie -- lots of talk about Starz Hi-Res over in the HDTV Programming forum.

IIRC, it's a 16x9 480i signal, designed to take about the same bandwidth as an SD channel for bandwidth-limited (*cough* satellite *cough*) carriers.

Sharper Movies HD is designed to be bundled into a ~$10/month HD package from carriers.

Starz HD East and West will be the same idea as HBO and Sho-HD -- you get them if you pay for the Starz SD package.

Ernie - the 18 to 80 switching bugs the hell out of my 6000 as well...

Ernie,

My 6000 doesn't like the KRMA 18-80 switching either. When we toured the studio (how long ago was that?!) they said they needed a piece of hardware that would remap the PSIP of the national PBS feed from 80 to 18. Evidently, they never have implemented that hardware.

I think I'll contact the head of engineering and see if they have any plans to fix the problem in the near future.

John in Jeffco

Yeah right. I think both KMGH and Comcast have hired the former Iraqi PR guy. Or vice-versa :p

Originally posted by santellavision
Also, there was an article in the Rocky about Comcast starting HDTV service by, get this... "September at the latest". Yeah right. I think both KMGH and Comcast have hired the former Iraqi PR guy.

Rocky Comcast Article (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/technology/article/0,1299,DRMN_49_2024970,00.html)


"Denver customers have not received the service because the technology requires a network upgrade, which AT&T Broadband - now Comcast - had been working on for several years."

If they are talking about the rebuilt areas, hopefully that means all that is needed is their STB.


"Instead, Comcast will probably begin offering HBO, Showtime and a combination of local high-definition signals generated by Denver's over-the-air TV stations."

That would solve some of the low power OTA problems for us. Of course it would be the old "have to pay for cable just to get decent broadcast reception" again!


At least the Comcast purchase seems to have improved customer service. I can get through to a customer service rep in minutes now instead of hours (or never - I usually hung up after screaming obscenities on my opinion of their support for being on hold over an hour!) with former crappy AT&T. No idea how TCI was, but AT&T was the epitimy of how mergers suck.

FYI, I just upgraded my DTC-100 to the Samsung TS160. One word,.. wow. I use to get KMGH sporadicly with my DTC-100. I would get between 40-46 % signal. If it ever dropped below 40% I would lose the signal. Even on a good day, the DTC100 would show some sort of dropout. With the samsung, I'm getting 63%, and haven't had one breakup all evening. I can't believe it. I also bought the hughes model, but it said 73% signal, but would not lock. So, the Hughes goes back. I did a side by side compare via a switch box, and the Samsung actually had a slightly sharper picture than the Hughes. Both showed the same amount of red push to my eyes.

dr_mal - How do you know its 480i?
High resolution is a lower-grade form of high definition that requires one-third as much bandwidth and that Sie says is indistinguishable from HD. In his words, it is the "tastes-great, less-filling" version of high-quality TV.

snip

Sie wants to compromise with the "high resolution" signal, a technology that sends a clear picture with 480 pixels down the side of the screen, as opposed to the 1,080 pixels (called 1080i) of HD.
I would hope they are talking about 480p widescreen. Either way it would be around 6MB/s, so I guess why not go 480i.

Adent,

I also got an email back from Tom Southwick (Encore) he confirmed the 480i, 16:9. I think it's false advertising to call it 'Hi-resolution' its the same resolution, just widescreen.

They've also confirmed (or at least KenH has) that the high-res signal will be compatible with non-HD STBs. That means it's gotta be 480i. Completely bogus and a waste of bandwidth if you ask me.

Ernie, Mark, et al,

I just spoke with Jim Schoedler at KRMA about the PSIP switching between 18 and 80 as they go from a local feed to the national PBS feed. This switching seems to affect all of us with Dish 6000 receivers. Possibly other brands, too.

Mr. Schoedler was well aware of the problem and it's on his short list of things to fix this summer. When we toured the KRMA studios, their thinking at the time was to acquire a piece of hardware that would strip the national feed's PSIP of 80 and replace it with 18. It turns out that this is an expensive box to do just one task.

The other option is to buy the hardware that will decode the entire Hi-Def stream and then re-encode it for transmission. Not only does this solve the PSIP switching problem, the hardware has other uses that fit into their long-range strategy. So it appears that's the route they are going to take.

Jim gave me a time frame of August for acquisition and installation of the hardware. Whether they make this specific month or not, I think by the end of summer KRMA-DT will be on channel 18 all of the time.

Our 6000's will have one less thing to worry about.

John in Jeffco

Eh, it's just that the 6000 is a POS. ;)

Some of the D* HD receivers dont care about any of it.. You go to 6-1 and a picture and sound appear whether it's the National 1080i feed, the local 16x9 upconverted stuff, or the analog 4x3 simulcast.

Good to know they're looking into the issue though.

Slight OT...

Just wanted to show-off my (Finally) completed Home Theatre!!!! I did 95% of the work myself, except the drywall texturing-hired a pro.

New Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/ht/ernieht.htm)

Ernie - I don't know how you could possibly live with that room and gear - You poor soul......


NOT!

Seriously, looks great - nice job!

So when's the theatre-warming party? :D

Didn't we try to do that a while back? Have a get together once a month or something to check out
our fellow HD'r setups?

Nice theater, Ernie! Looks great.

Ernie, that is one great looking setup. Party at Ernies place!!!!

Not one to miss an opportunity here on the forum, that set-up looks better than the one KMGH uses to transmit their DTV signal. It looks like Ernie invested in much better 'coat hangers'.
:D

If you think my setup is nice... You should see Jetlags!

I have to thank him for a lot of the ideas (Marantz PJ, electric screen, turning a closet into a equipment room etc) Thanks Tim!!!!

Originally posted by santellavision
Slight OT...

Just wanted to show-off my (Finally) completed Home Theatre!!!! I did 95% of the work myself, except the drywall texturing-hired a pro.

New Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/ht/ernieht.htm)

I guess the projection isn't affected by all those windows?

That's really sweet looking, Ernie!

Back on topic here, Pete has put together an open house for all of us at KCNC once again for next Wednesday night, the 18th. Here's the message that some of us got from him this morning:


Friends,

As you know, the first LCG hearing before the Jeffco County Commissioners is set for July 1st. I’d like to invite you and anyone you may know who might be interested in the project to an open house at KCNC on Wednesday, June 18th from 6:00 to 8:00 pm. We’d like the opportunity to give an overview of the project and discuss key issues to obtaining the Commissioners approval. If you are able to attend, please send me an email if you can, although it certainly isn’t required.

KCNC is located at 1044 Lincoln Street in Denver.


(His original message had the wrong date in it, which I have corrected, and a map of KCNC's location. If you need directions, and can't find it in mapquest or something, post and we'll get you there.)

For those of you that have joined our little part of the world here since the last time we had a meeting at KCNC 18 months ago, their facility is really worth seeing. And I imagine that David Layne would be happy to show us around after the meeting.

July 1st is fast approaching, and it's my opinion that we need to come up with a game plan to present to the Jeffco BCC. You can bet your bottom dollar that Deb Carney is rallying the sCARE forces, and organizing the topics that they will talk about in front of the BCC. If we do the same, and go in there with a point for point counterattack against the crap that they are going to spew, then I think we have a chance of this thing passing and HD coming to Denver the way it should have 4 years ago. But, if only 3 of us testify to the BCC and don't coordinate our efforts beforehand, then this thing ain't gonna happen, and it'll be 2142 before HD actually reaches Denver, or give or take a couple of months...

KCNC is once again stepping to the plate by inviting us into their facilities. Let's not disappoint them by me being the only one to show up, ok? :D

If you think my setup is nice... You should see Jetlags!
Yeah, I was wondering where you got the idea for your equipment closet.;)
http://home.earthlink.net/~tim_schaefer/pic/rack.jpg mine http://www.frii.com/~santella/ht/7.1.jpg Ernie's
Seriously though, nice job!

Originally posted by markdl
Pete has put together an open house for all of us at KCNC once again for next Wednesday night, the 18th.

Can you post the e-mail we should RSVP to?

Whoops! Sorry about that. Pete's email is pete@grinnellgroup.com

Pete also mentioned to invite anyone you know.
I'm going to try and get my father-in-law to go, and to the hearings, since he's in JeffCo (and won't buy a tuner because he thinks there's not enough content).

I am surprised to see that KMGH or KUSA didn't hold this meeting given their strong support of DTV in the Denver market. It would have been fun to see the KMGH 'coat hanger' in person, or perhaps to check out the unit that KUSA uses to switch from HD to SD so they can insert the local commercials. KMGH might have even let those in the group who live outside the parking lot area get a chance to see what their DTV signal looks like. Talk about 'missed opportunities'. I wonder if they will send a representative to the meeting??

Originally posted by JMartinko
.. , or perhaps to check out the unit that KUSA uses to switch from HD to SD .. It's impolite to call an intern a "unit".

Originally posted by RonAuger
It's impolite to call an intern a "unit".

You are correct, my bad!

Seriously, it seems like this could have been a good opportunity for KMGH to at least try to 'mend some fences'. Apparently they really DON'T give a da%n. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised though. Maybe they will at least send their 'lawyer' to the meeting to tell us all we are full of.....never mind, I am ranting again and I promised myself I would quit.

Guys, Pete set this meeting up at KCNC because I suggested to him that KCNC would be the best place to hold it, or at the very least the "friendliest" place. I would think that he could get people from KMGH and KUSA there as well, if that were important to some of you sitting on the fence over attending. And, as I recall, last summer or thereabouts I had offered to set up a meeting and tour at KMGH, and there wasn't much interest in it.

Anyway, got this message from Pete this morning about the schedule of the public hearings at the Taj on the 1st and the 8th.


Friends,

Here is the agenda for the first day of testimony. It is going to be a
long one. It starts at 9:00 but individual testimony is not scheduled
to begin until 6:40.

You'll also see they have scheduled 3 1/2 hours for CARE but precluded
any HOA that falls under the CARE umbrella from testifying.

We plan on our testimony only lasting 1 1/2 hours. They offered us as
much as we wanted but any longer and they'll lose sight of the forest
for the trees. The rest of our evidence will be in writing.

They have also formally scheduled the 8th for public testimony. When I
get a time, I'll let you know.


Attached is a word document from the county with the time breakouts. I'm planning on being there all day to listen and take some notes (although they won't be as extensive as last time I think).

Originally posted by markdl
Guys, Pete set this meeting up at KCNC because I suggested to him that KCNC would be the best place to hold it, or at the very least the "friendliest" place. I would think that he could get people from KMGH and KUSA there as well, if that were important to some of you sitting on the fence over attending. And, as I recall, last summer or thereabouts I had offered to set up a meeting and tour at KMGH, and there wasn't much interest in it.


Mark

I do remember that there was an offer from KMGH last year for a tour, but at the time they were simply 'not available' to most of us and that (I think) was the reason for the lack of interest.
[rant mode ON] Since that time, many of us have received a formal 'one finger salute' from their lawyers when we asked for some consideration and effort on their part, and that has certainly peaked my interest more. I can't speak for the others. I usually prefer to 'receive the salute' personally to my face rather than by someone hiding behind a legal letterhead. Generally I find it easier to provide an adequate and similar reply in person (i.e. it is easier to speak their own sign language directly to them in person).

As for the 'effort' at KUSA (have I recently mentioned they claim they are Colorado's leading station), apparently they are indeed hiring the handicapped. Last night they were using a 'deaf' intern to flip the switch for Leno. Whenever they went to the HD mode, they transmitted no audio. Fortunately for all of their DTV viewers in the Denver area, when they switched to SD upconverts for the local commercials the audio came back on, so no one missed the sound on the commercials and their self promoting adds. After all, who cares about the hearing the programming, as long as you can hear sound on the ads. Glad to see they are 'on top of their game' in time for our support at the hearings. Perhaps they are now responding using the same 'finger and sign' language that KMGH uses, that could account for the lack of audio for HD.

As for KCNC holding the meeting, I really don't feel KCNC needs to be left to be the only station trying to gain our help. They, along with KRMA, have consistently been the leader in DTV, and have put forth more than a fair effort to promote DTV and HDTV for Denver. It doesn't seem fair to me that they have to stand up and defend the two networks who are putting forth little or no effort, and yet stand to reap the same benefits and rewards as KCNC if the application is supported by us and approved.
[/rant mode OFF]

Just my $0.02, as usual it is worth every penny of what you had to pay to read it.

I just got an email from Pete McNally about an open house on Thursday from 6 to 8 PM at KUSA! I plan to go to that to listen to what the stations say about DTV, most especially KMGH.

Based on that feedback, I might go to the hearings. For me, if I don't hear KMGH fall on their sword a bit and commit big time, no matter the outcome of the LCG request, I probably won't support the efforts. But it is worth it to me to hear from them directly.

I don't receive my home email at work, is this meeting 'in place of' or 'in addition to' the meeting on the 18'th at KCNC?

I just called Pete and left him a message. That was my question as well, and I haven't yet received the email. Not questioning you, Dennis - just looking to verify that the KCNC meeting is still on for Wednesday night.

Here is Pete'w email. It does not mention the meeting at KCNC on Wednesday.

Dear Friends,



Our efforts to bring HDTV to Denver for Channels 4, 7, 9, and 20 are reaching the final stages. Last month, the Jefferson County Planning Commission voted to recommend approval of the project. On July 1st, the Jefferson County Board of Commissioners will meet to discuss our application and will begin taking public input at around 6:30 that evening. A second meeting will be held on the 8th. The Board of Commissioners makes the final decision and, as elected officials, they are more politically oriented. As a result, public support is critical to obtaining approval and we would greatly appreciate your attendance and support at the meeting.



To help familiarize you with the project and our overall efforts to bring DTV to Denver, the stations will be jointly holding an open house next Thursday, June 19, from 6:00 to 8:00 pm. Food and drink will be provided and tours of the facility can be arranged if there is interest.



If you are unable to attend the County meetings on the 1st and the 8th of July, please still come to the open house. You can write a letter of support and the open house will provide you an opportunity to learn more about the project and ask questions. You will also be able to learn about each stations DTV efforts and programming.



Channel 9 is located at 500 East Speer Boulevard in Denver. Tell the receptionist you are there for the Lake Cedar Group meeting. Here is a map.

Please write or call with any questions. Looking forward to meeting you on the 19th.


Sincerely,


Peter McNally, Principal

The Grinnell Group

www.grinnellgroup.com

225 42nd Street

Des Moines, Iowa 50312

(515) 279-1026

(515) 279-1027 fax

Mark:

Thinking the same, I also called him. He didn't answer and I left a voice mail asking for clarification and to call me back or post on AVS.

Finally a tour I can make. Of course, I get in from Tokyo that afternoon so if I am walking around like a zombie you'll know why.

Think I should bring along my KMGH 'antenna' as a thank-you gift for them?

Originally posted by Jetlag
Finally a tour I can make. Of course, I get in from Tokyo that afternoon so if I am walking around like a zombie you'll know why.

With a name like "Jetlag' we would expect nothing less than a zombie!
:D

If you can't bring the antenna I would suggest that all in attendance take up a collection to buy KMGH a new antenna so someone beyond their parking lot can get the signal.

Here is Pete's reply to my email to him:

Dennis,

Thanks for the calls. We are planning two open houses. For the first one on Wed at KCNC, we invited the AVS forum. The second one on Thur at KUSA is targeted towards less technically inclined folk. For that we’ve invited friends, neighbors, colleagues, etc from Jeffco. With them, we are starting from scratch on educating them about the history, issues involved etc. Hence the two meetings. If folks can’t make it to the Wed night meeting, they are welcome on Thursday, though they might not get as much out of it.

Sorry for the confusion. If you’d be so kind as to post this email, I’d appreciate it.

Thanks again. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Pete

For me, I would still like to see the attitude of KMGH and KUSA at the "public" meeting. Maybe they don't want AVS members there to stir up their pot.

That's what Pete told me on the phone as well. I didn't get the impression that they didn't want us there on Thursday, just that it might be a good use of our time, as we collectively as a group already know what they'll be talking about at the KUSA open house.

The KCNC open house is definitely targeted at us, though. I'm planning on going to both, and hope to meet a lot of the newcomers and see the "old timers" on Wednesday at least at KCNC.

Still looking for comments about whether our group would like to talk to Don and Rick from KUSA and KMGH on Wednesday.

I will be attending the Thursday one as I can't make Weds meeting. Hope they are there as well.
Jeff

Wow...it's like we all spent the weekend outside or something...you could hear the echo in here from across the internet this weekend... :)

Originally posted by markdl
Wow...it's like we all spent the weekend outside or something...you could hear the echo in here from across the internet this weekend... :)

Wow, BUSTED!
Mornings at the swimming pool and afternoons at the "Blues and Bones Festival" outside Mile High Stadium (a.k.a. Invesco). How about everyone else?

There is more to life than TV and the internet. Swim meets, clean up and Dad's day mountains hiking. FUN. Did watch AOTC and was disappointed in the PQ. Lots of agreement on that point on AVS. Hope D* gets their act together before they launch new, but crummy PQ, HD channels.

I plan to go to the meeting Wed and Thu and bring a neighbor or two. What is the exact deal on Wed at KCNC? Busy today and don't have time to search for the details. Thanks.

Dennis,

What's AOTC???

What's D*??

thanks,
Dom

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
There is more to life than TV and the internet. Swim meets, clean up and Dad's day mountains hiking. FUN. Did watch AOTC and was disappointed in the PQ. Lots of agreement on that point on AVS. Hope D* gets their act together before they launch new, but crummy PQ, HD channels.

I plan to go to the meeting Wed and Thu and bring a neighbor or two. What is the exact deal on Wed at KCNC? Busy today and don't have time to search for the details. Thanks.

dbucciar - AOTC is Attack of the Clones, aka Star Wars Episode II that showed on HBO-HD Saturday night. D* is Directv. And for reference, E* is Echostar or Dish Network.

Dennis - Wednesday night at KCNC from 6-8, Pete has put together a meeting/open house specifically for us (ie people that know what HDTV is, and what the current situation is in the area with Care and Jeffco and all that). Thursday night at KUSA from 6-8 is geared more towards the community that doesn't know much of anything about HDTV, and has no idea the problems and process that the stations and Jeffco are going through.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
There is more to life than TV and the internet. I wish someone had told me that before I squandered my weekend.

This is what I did ...

Ron,

Wow, keep those Screenshots coming! That looks like it's going to be a beauty.

Greg

No doubt! That looks great, Ron!

Ron:

Nice work. I think electrical and carpentry are definitely different than TV and the internet. Much more sweat (and swearing) involved!

Two of us will be at Wed and Thu meetings at the stations.

Lots and lots of swearing ... especially when you repeatedly try to smash and cut off your own fingers! I'm just glad I'm done with the chop saw and table saw for now.

I'm going Wed., not sure about Thurs.

Has KUSA totally stopped broadcasting HD????

I noticed last night that they did not send Leno in HD and last week I noticed that when Leno was in HD, there was no audio. Has anyone seen any HD on KUSA since about last Thursday? I am wondering if they have stopped broadcasting HD again. Has anyone heard of any equipment problems with them again? Glad to know they are our leading station......

I have seen no HD on KUSA since last week either. After the no sound on Leno, there has been nothing in HD when I have checked. I am sure they will tell us at the meeting at their station that this will all be fixed once the antenna goes up on Lookout. Till then, we can watch glorious SD 4:3 broadcasts on our wide screen TVs.

Damn

Have not been checking this forum - did not see this meeting notice and no time to plan to attend.

Oh well next time

Reggie

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I have seen no HD on KUSA since last week either. After the no sound on Leno, there has been nothing in HD when I have checked. I am sure they will tell us at the meeting at their station that this will all be fixed once the antenna goes up on Lookout. Till then, we can watch glorious SD 4:3 broadcasts on our wide screen TVs.

That is how I suspect it will go. If anyone goes to the Thursday meeting, it might be fun to ask them what happened to HD. Remind them (as if they don't already know) they claim they are Denver's leading station, and yet they are the ONLY one that doesn't even broadcast HD to their parking lot. They could be nice and pass on the HD feed for Leno etc. without local commercials until they find the problem, but knowing them it would be more like last week when they passed on the local commercial (and KUSA ads) and didn't bother to pass on the HD audio. I guess when you say your number one, you don't even have to try.

Last reminder - tonight's the night for the AVS meeting at KCNC from 6 to 8. It'll be a really little meeting with a whole lot of food if it's only me, Dennis and Ron there tonight with Pete. Hope to see (and meet) more of you there tonight! :)

I have a question for any DirecTV users here in Denver. Is anyone having lots of breakups lately? For the last two weeks we have been getting lots of breakups and pixilation on all three of our receivers. The signal strength on Sat A seems lower then normal. Anyway, just wondering if it is some kind of atmospheric condition or just my equipment.

Steve

Steve:

No problems with breakups, other than crappy picture sometimes on HBOHD.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Steve:

No problems with breakups, other than crappy picture sometimes on HBOHD. Ditto!

taylor23 - Perhaps your antenna pointing needs fine tuning. Do you have the same issues with channels on 119 or 110 (if you get those signals to begin with).

Originally posted by markdl
Last reminder - tonight's the night for the AVS meeting at KCNC from 6 to 8. It'll be a really little meeting with a whole lot of food if it's only me, Dennis and Ron there tonight with Pete. Hope to see (and meet) more of you there tonight! :)
I'm currently planning on attending both meetings -- so the food and drink per person ratio just went WAY down :)

Damn...there goes the neighborhood (and the food!) :D

It'll be good to see you again dr_mal! :)

Originally posted by Geof
Ditto!

taylor23 - Perhaps your antenna pointing needs fine tuning. Do you have the same issues with channels on 119 or 110 (if you get those signals to begin with).

That is the odd thing. I get breakups on 119 and 110 but the signal strength seems to be the same as its always been.

We are in a new house so maybe it has settled a bit and knocked the alignment off. Or maybe my multiswitch is going bad.

Thanks for the feed back. At least now I know where to look.

Steve

Random thoughts about tonight's "enthusiast" meeting at KCNC:

Well, as expected, KMGH didn't even bother sending anyone to tell us to our face that we'd see full power KMGH-DT within a week or two :rolleyes:

Stay positive, stay positive :)

The folks at KCNC once again were excellent -- they put up with (and had good answers for) all our questions about the upcoming BCC hearing for LCG2. Pete and crew seem really well prepared, and everyone's cautiously optimistic that LCG2 will get approved. If approved, they estimate full power HDTV on the air approximately late 2004. KMGH, of course, expects to have their full power HDTV on the air very, very soon. I wonder how they'll pull that off.

Chairman Powell is apparently aware of the Denver situation (that's good).

Pat Brus was there, and once again, we got an excellent tour of the facility, including a glimpse at their new (for the Grammys) Dolby 5.1 equipment. Thanks Pat!

We had four or five avs members show up, plus a couple of other people.

There was a lot of discussion about the types of things that are and aren't helpful for public testimony.

They have a new model of Lookout Mountain (done by the same folks who made the kickin' model for Mt Morrison). It's going to be a big hit. They have the computer simulations ready as well.

Another interesting Deb note -- apparently she tried earlier this year to get a bill passed (in Aurora? State of Colorado? I was a bit fuzzy about where this was) that would "amortize" "undesirable" structures in certain areas. The targets? Porn shops and broadcast towers. This bill was defeated, which is a good thing, because if it had passed, that could've opened the door to using that technique to "amortize" the towers off of Lookout Mountain, thus bringing the mountain into zoning compliance.

Zoning commission/staff have confirmed that, worst case, when analog OTA signals cease and everyone goes digital, the LCG stations could swap out equipment in their buildings on Lookout and boom - they'd be broadcasting digital signals using their existing towers/transmitters. Nobody wants this to happen, but it's proof that there will be towers on Lookout for the foreseeable future.

That's the stuff I can remember. Looking forward to the meeting tomorrow night.

Also,
If you wish to experience your own 3 minutes of fame (and testify in favor of the application!), send Pete McNally (pete@grinnellgroup.com) an email with your name, address, and phone number. He can sign you up at 9AM July 1st and you won't have to show up until the evening.

Who could have guessed KMGH wouldn't send a representative to the meeting??? Couldn't have seen that one coming, could we???
:mad:

I don't suppose the KUSA representative mentioned why they have quit showing HD on their "Denver's Leading Station" DTV channel?????

Leno was in HD last night. (is there anything else [worth watching] in HD on NBC?;) )

I sent an email to Don Perez at KUSA about the no sound on Leno and a couple days ago another email about the sound when they are showing Leno in HD. The sound now comes only from the front right speaker. Here is his reply to me today:

_____________

We have found a problem with our HD video server that accounts for the audio issue. Your feedback got the ball rolling. It currently being worked on, but I do not know the status at this point....more to come...thanks

_____________


I would only comment that KUSA looks like they are trying. I don't have an answer from him as to why they don't show their prime time shows in HD. Maybe I will get an answer from them tonight at their station.

By way of example, I have sent several emails in the past to KMGH on various sound issues with never a response. I also sent KDVR one note about their constant lip-sync issues. No response and, of course, no fix after months and months. Even though they are not HD, I can't see how anyone could stand the lip-sync problems they have on 32.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I would only comment that KUSA looks like they are trying. I don't have an answer from him as to why they don't show their prime time shows in HD. Maybe I will get an answer from them tonight at their station.

By way of example, I have sent several emails in the past to KMGH on various sound issues with never a response. I also sent KDVR one note about their constant lip-sync issues. No response and, of course, no fix after months and months. Even though they are not HD, I can't see how anyone could stand the lip-sync problems they have on 32. There is (an apparent steep) learning curve for DTV which is why we were urging KUSA to get a HD setup before Lookout. Then again that learning curve actually assumes station Engineers want to learn (and improve). In the 2+ years of this thread (and even before this thread) it's been quite clear KDVR doesn't care to fix their issues with lipsync. Perhaps they're all either blind or deaf (or stupid?).

As to KMGH, it does not surprise me they were absent from the KCNC meeting. Given their track record it also doesn't surprise me that they're non responsive to emails. I really detest that station and their management. Try as I might I cannot speak up for LCG2 because of KMGH (and to some extent KUSA). I hope Pete and company understand that their support would have stronger if KMGH was up front and honest with us (rather than trying to baffle us with BS).

I thought the lobby TV at KDVR had the sound turned off, thus explaining their total disinterest in audio sync.

Originally posted by JMartinko
I don't suppose the KUSA representative mentioned why they have quit showing HD on their "Denver's Leading Station" DTV channel?????

There was nobody from KUSA there last night either. Pete and crew did a good job of presenting the LCG2 case (although tonight will be more thorough), and there was strong representation from KCNC.

I gave KUSA a break for not being there last night since presumably we'll get some face time tonight. I was really hoping that KUSA and KMGH could've shown up last night so we could get all the ugliness out of the way and have tonight be more positive.

KCNC is still Colorado's commercial television leader (KRMA gets top honours for being the first station to have locally produced HDTV content, and for James Morgese's commitment to getting his station on the air full-power) and last night they again proved why. Pat said he still has his staff reading this thread daily, so compliments to KCNC here are noticed. I'd be surprised if anyone from KUSA or KMGH cares what their viewers think. Maybe KUSA will prove me wrong tonight.

Finally, since I opted for a HDTV PC card and huge hard drive with the income tax refund, I wasn't able to afford an HDTV ExpressVu setup. So I'm now fully behind LCG2 with the hope that I'll get full power HDTV soon. I don't care anymore about KMGH-DT. If and when they do put an HD signal on the air, I still won't be watching them. There's enough HD content between KCNC, KRMA, KUSA (provided they do HD this fall), Discovery, ESPN, HDNet, HBO, Showtime etc.

For anyone who's wondering "what if LCG2 doesn't get approved?", Walt DeHaven, KCNC's GM, indicated that the FCC isn't going to be very tolerant of the Denver stations NOT being on the air with HDTV soon. Pete said that while they don't want to be thinking about a "Plan B", they do have some thoughts about how they could satisfy the FCC (and us) by getting full power HDTV on the air. Note that any Plan B solution would leave the tower situation unchanged for the foreseeable future -- ie the same number of towers with the same yucky old transmitters, just switched over to digital equipment once they were done broadcasting analog.

Originally posted by dr_mal


For anyone who's wondering "what if LCG2 doesn't get approved?", Walt DeHaven, KCNC's GM, indicated that the FCC isn't going to be very tolerant of the Denver stations NOT being on the air with HDTV soon. Pete said that while they don't want to be thinking about a "Plan B", they do have some thoughts about how they could satisfy the FCC (and us) by getting full power HDTV on the air. Note that any Plan B solution would leave the tower situation unchanged for the foreseeable future -- ie the same number of towers with the same yucky old transmitters, just switched over to digital equipment once they were done broadcasting analog. They certainly should not be talking about "Plan B" (which is really "Plan C") in public. Many many months ago I urged them to be thinking about the next plan and said so in a letter to the FCC. It took almost 2 years to get from LCG1 rejection to LCG2 and waiting that long for LCG3 (or whatever) would be and should be intolerable.

It's great to hear that the FCC isn't going to take kindly to further delays. Frankly, it's [past] time for them to take that stance. This puts pressure on the LCG stations to make concessions with the JeffCo Commissioners should that become necessary.

That said I still think LCG2 is solid and a very good proposal. Far better than LCG1 which, frankly, should have been rejected. JeffCo and their residents are getting a far better setup with LCG2 and, SCARE emotions aside, LCG2 is better than remaining status quo (and that needs to be reinforced during the BOA hearings).

Pete has done an excellent job. I'm really upset that I can't see fit to support this proposal but I cannot. I just can't - and I apologize to everyone here for being so hard-ass about this.

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
I thought the lobby TV at KDVR had the sound turned off, thus explaining their total disinterest in audio sync. I think you may be right but this doesn't excuse them from ignoring the tons of email they must have received concerning lipsync.

My hats off to KCNC Engineering - they listen and are working issues when they arise. Hopefully KUSA (and KWGN when they get on the air) will read these forums and also be willing to improve. They don't have to agree with us and they certainly don't have to post here but we can be helpful (even between the barbs).

Don Perez at KUSA made is clear that he wants feedback on any issues via email to him. He is at don.perez@9news.com. He has fixed his servers and ER was in HD as well as Leno with no sound problems. He hopes to have all his automated switching equipment in place this summer. That involves moving temporarily his main control room, tearing down a wall and rebuilding it. He talked about the future with local news and feels that the best way to get into it would be with a SD widescreen broadcast first of all because their current field cameras can to either 4:3 or 16:9 in SD. HD cameras cost 3 times as much as an SD camera so he has financial issues to contend with. He mentioned of all the Gannett stations, they are last to get at HD because of the Lookout issues. Mentioned that even Macon, GA is up an running. I was convinced that he is committed to make HD happen.

About 30 - 40 people were there last night all appearing to like the presentation. Same message as the night before with some questions about health such as "Pete, would you let your children live there?"

Tour was short and sweet with us spending most of the time gawking at a 50 in SONY plasma in their lobby showing some spectacular demo shots that Don had put together. My main impression was that their building is very very nice.

Rich Haddock (sp?) from KMGH was there and we all shook his hand. He obviously is not in a position to say or do anything. He looked a little sheepish to me when we gently gave him some barbs.

I wrote a note to Don Perez this morning thanking him for the visit last night and for fixing the sound problems. Here is his reply to me.


Nice to also meet you and the other HD interested folks. I am sorry that we have gone through a bit of a saga. We are off pioneering and that can have some problems/surprises. We will keep at it and improve as time goes on. In the last year, we have installed a new digital, analog and HD plant router, digital news production switcher, DTV and digital news editing system. It has been a handful. Thank you for your feedback. Keep it coming. Thanks

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Don Perez at KUSA made is clear that he wants feedback on any issues via email to him. He is at don.perez@9news.com.That works for me. At least he is willing to listen.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I wrote a note to Don Perez ....Here is his reply to me.

We are off pioneering and that can have some problems/surprises.

AHA! I think I have discovered the problem with HD here in Denver. As Don said, "We are off pioneering" while the rest of the stations in the top thirty markets in the country are BROADCASTING!

Glad to see KMGH was willing to send a top representative to the meeting. Personally I had planned on attending the meetings but I spent the evening trying to tune in KMGH with my antenna and tuner. Still no luck, just can't seem to pull it in for some reason. I sure hope I get it before the hearings so I won't have to spend those evenings working on my set up instead.
:mad:

Dennis,
Thanks for the recap. I couldn't make it last night since my daughter and wife were a little sick.

The KMGH Dir. of Engineering is Rick Craddock. I get the feeling he'd love to do more than their toy trasmitter but his hands are tied; hence the sheepish look you got. I intend to write another letter to the FCC once the verdict comes in on LCG2. Even if it is approved, the LCG themselves are saying they couldn't be on the air until Q1 2005. That's 3 more STAs that KMGH has to request. Compared to the claims they were making in the lawyer rebuttal letter, it might finally become clear to the FCC that they are not being forthright in their statements.

Yeah, his "pioneering" statement made me chuckle considering they're the newest DTV broadcaster in town.

Rick from KMGH was very gracious and accepted all our barbs with the same results -- with one exception. He indicated (he's probably going to regret having said this) that if LCG2 should get denied, KMGH would likely reconsider their position.

So that got me thinking. If LCG2 gets approved (August timeframe?) they expect construction to be complete and the stations to be on the air full power in late 2004. However, if LCG2 gets denied (same August timeframe), I bet KMGH-DT could move to Republic by the end of 2003. Hmmmm....

Don Perez seemed like a very reasonable man. He refused to give us any way to contact station engineers after hours (ie during primetime) but did say that he'd look into any issues reported to his e-mail the next day. That is, if they aren't chasing down other, higher-priority fires. I can understand his position, but I also think KUSA needs to be doing whatever it can to earn our support. Point to KCNC.

Like Dennis said, the KUSA tour was much shorter - we didn't get to see nearly as much stuff (or any studios). Don was very good about responding to any questions we had and chatted with us for quite some time in their lobby. Still, point to KCNC.

Like Dennis said, Don expects to have his fully-automated switching system in place within weeks. (I think he said hopefully within "a" week). I understood that all the master control room work wasn't needed for this switching equipment, but is something they need to do in the medium-term. I wasn't clear on why they need to expand it, though.

Funny moment of the night:

After Pete was asked whether he'd live on Lookout, he answered that he grew up in the vicinity of TV towers and he doesn't feel that he's suffered any ill effects. One guy asks a follow-up -- do you have any kids, and are they normal. Pete said if they weren't normal it was because of himself, not because of any radiation. The gentlemen then said "well, the fact that you're not sterile kind of refutes any claims that the radiation harmed you, doesn't it?"

I met a guy there last night who does home theater installations in Colorado. He's obviously got a vested interest in HDTV as well since he says he has troubles convincing clients to put a big antenna on their roof to get HDTV signals. I gave him the URL for the denverdtv.info site as well as this thread so he can keep up on what's going on. I told him he could just ignore anything posted by JMartinko -- no sense shell-shocking the poor guy :)

Originally posted by dr_mal
........I told him he could just ignore anything posted by JMartinko -- no sense shell-shocking the poor guy :)
Geez, I thought that was obvious. I have removed myself from the local HD enthusiast list and now reside on the "disgruntled and angry" list of contributors.
:D

Actually, guys, I apologize to the entire group, I know my posts lately have nothing to contribute except criticism of the entire situation. I have just gotten fed up with beating my head against the brick wall knowing that KCNC and KRMA are the only two stations in Denver that even care.

I had just about exhausted my supply of 'enthusiasm' for things when I received what I considered to be a 'totally insulting' letter from the KMGH lawyers. For KMGH to claim they expect to be on the air soon, while their own LCG application says, even WITH approval, late 2004 or early 2005, is just simply more than I can stomach.

Meanwhile KUSA 'pioneers' HD while not only being the 'last station on the air in any form', but possibly only now beginning to 'pass along' prime time HD programming from NBC.

With full apoligies to Pete (who is working his 'over radiated' :D rear end off), and also to KCNC people who are also working hard to get on the air, I just can't deal with the other folks in the LCG. I was willing to deal with the minimal effort I had seen, but when they resort to lies and insult my intelligence (please don't start a new debate about that issue :D ) with their letters to us and the FCC it is the 'last straw'. Like Geof and a few others, I have been involved almost since day one with this thread. I have covered the same issues so many times I just can't think of anything new to say on the issue. Perhaps it is simply the years of frustration talking here.

As for supporting LCG2, I actually have personal conflicts (tickets to sporting and concert, and Shakespeare events) on the evenings of the hearings, and given my current state of mind, I refuse to change my schedule. I will not post items to attempt to stop people from supporting the LCG application (unless you count my well founded criticisms which I post from time to time), but I cannot bring myself to muster the effort to support KMGH, KUSA and KTVD given their recent attitude.

I applaud those of you who are still willing to put in your time and effort and thank you for that. In the meantime, I suppose I will remain the Denver thread "curmudgeon". As you can tell by my frequent posts, I have not lost interest, just enthusiasm.

Originally posted by Hot
I wish congress would change the law to let all network HDTV be delivered by satellite bypassing these local stations who are not pushing for full power HDTV.

Well, technically they do not have to, because all of the network feeds to the affiliates are via satellite. The problem is that you'll have to spend money to put in a C/Ku sat dish and buy the necessary receivers. Not a cheap option.

The low power thing is supposed to be temporary. But, I do not know when stations will no longer be allowed to only low low power.

Oh, and getting Congress to force the network HDTV feeds onto the pizza pan dish has a snowball's chance in Hell of ever happening. But I know you knew that.:D

Originally posted by JMartinko
I applaud those of you who are still willing to put in your time and effort and thank you for that. In the meantime, I suppose I will remain the Denver thread "curmudgeon". As you can tell by my frequent posts, I have not lost interest, just enthusiasm. Ditto.

If LCG2 is denied I hope KCNC goes their separate way. If so I will do all I can to help them win approval for an application. OTOH, I wouldn't really mind seeing KMGH just go away (Hell will freeze over before I even consider helping them).

Perez is being reasonable by only accepting emails - I won't fault him for that (although as mentioned - point goes to KCNC). At least he is going to listen to our thoughts (err, actually your thoughts since I cannot receive their digital channel).

Ron, that's probably a good idea about writing the FCC again regarding KMGH. They will obviously miss the Spring approval date - and the shortly date - and in all likelihood most of us will miss two HD MNF seasons (if LCG2 is approved).

To Ms. Carney, Mr. Hislop and all of the other CARE folks monitoring this thread from the background shadows, just because some of this thread's more prominent members have stepped away from supporting this application, there are plenty more of us that have stepped up and are stepping up to the plate to take their place. The LCG2 application does have the support of the majority of the readers of this thread, and even though some of them don't speak out openly here, they will be speaking out openly at the hearings. So, while we may not have the hundreds of people to speak like you are going to rally, we also have the Jefferson County zoning ordinances, and common sense on our side. And that's the way the commissioners are going to see this. No matter how many people you put up on the podium talking about how their neighbor's cousin's nephew's pet goldfish died from all of the radiation. The radiation wasn't a problem until you came along and proclaimed it to be, SCareing all of the residents on the mountain into living in fear for their lives. You have done them a great disservice.

To JM and Geof and others, we've got the torch now and are running with it. You guys have been here since the beginning...now it's time for some of us who joined into the party late take it for awhile. I know you'll be here when it's all over and done with. I'd just like to say thanks for your past efforts.:)

Mark -- if you're not a politician, you should be :)

A couple of articles that showed up in the Golden Transcript today:

Commissioners Schedule Marathon Tower Hearing
http://www.jeffconews.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2003-06-18&-token.story=42947.111215&-nothing

Jefferson County R-1 Board of Education Asked to Oppose Towers
http://www.jeffconews.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2003-06-18&-token.story=42948.111215&-nothing

Originally posted by markdl
To Ms. Carney, Mr. Hislop and all of the other CARE folks monitoring this thread from the background shadows, just because some of this thread's more prominent members have stepped away from supporting this application, there are plenty more of us that have stepped up and are stepping up to the plate to take their place. Just to be clear I support the application - I just don't support all of the members proposing the application. If KMGH dropped out I would cancel vacation plans and testify (and my testimony would not be well received by SCARE). I think there are plently of positives with LCG2 and any arguments SCARE drums up are specious and self-serving. The one major problem they have is nothing they say is logical (at least I have yet to hear it) and very little of what they say is based on fact.

Best of luck to those of you testifying and to Pete and KCNC.

Point of interest for the "flash" cut to digital Idea,

Analog shutoff is allowed after Dec 31, 2006 or when the DTV receiver penetration is 85 percent whichever is later.. So the flash cut can't occur unless the DTV signal is receivable by 85 percent of the population.

At least under current rules.

So by running low power /low tower height operations the broadcasters can't reach the 85 percent limit thus can't clear the spectrum (Which is all Congress really wants).

As far as I know. the FCC has not approved any station flash cutting to their analog channel in lieu of meeting the above requirements.

Back to lurking...

Right, but the "Plan B" idea to flash cut to digital would involve somehow getting full power DTV signals in the meantime.

<my speculation>
Either a temporary tower/transmitter on *ugh* Squaw or Morrison that could be abandoned once they flash cut the Lookout towers to digital.

Or somehow using the existing tower/transmitters on Lookout to simultaneously broadcast analog and digital.
</my speculation>

Or something.

The point is that if they take a temporary measure to get full power HDTV, Lookout is still the best spot to transmit TV to Denver so that's where their full-power HDTV signals will emanate from eventually. The choice JeffCo has now is to maintain the status quo (deny the application and have the stations use their existing towers to eventually do DTV) or to improve the situation (approve the application and have a net loss of towers within two years)

Originally posted by William Smith
Analog shutoff is allowed after Dec 31, 2006 or when the DTV receiver penetration is 85 percent whichever is later.. So the flash cut can't occur unless the DTV signal is receivable by 85 percent of the population.

Does this mean the cutoff could be indefinitly delayed since the 85% penetration would never be met if they stay on low power indefinitely? Is there a date requirement for full power digital broadcasts?

Is there any problem with the stations going to full power on Republic building as opposed to relying on LCG? Will the coverage be that much less than from Lookout Mountain?

As a new member here for only 2 months, attending the last 2 LCG meetings, I have come to the following conclusions: KCNC is very supportive of DTV and gave us a very in depth tour of their facilities. KUSA is not quite as enthusiastic about DTV, but is making some effort with the BOTTOM LINE making the decisions. KCNC seems to spend their $ on equipment rather than building facilities. KUSA priortizes their $ on building facilities rather than equipment. I found it amusing when someone mentioned the "only one out of reception being KMGH" and everyone in the room turning to look at the KMGH representitive. As for what people here have said about the stations not caring about the very few DTV viewers commercial potential, I say KCNC and CBS are doing the right thing by making the most HD programming available and the HD viewers are more likely to tune into KCNC and these same HD viewers are higher dollar consumers which their advertisers would want to court.

Personally, I'm going to remain on the sidelines with an HD capable widescreen TV, but remain HD tunerless, because I'm waiting for an acceptable HD recorder for timeshifting as well as the minimal amount of programming and reception.

Originally posted by HDTimeShifter
Does this mean the cutoff could be indefinitly delayed since the 85% penetration would never be met if they stay on low power indefinitely? Is there a date requirement for full power digital broadcasts?Yes, indefinitely. There is currently no FCC mandated date for full power DTV or for relinquishing the one of their frequencies, aside from the 85% DTV penetration stipulation.Is there any problem with the stations going to full power on Republic building as opposed to relying on LCG? Will the coverage be that much less than from Lookout Mountain? Yes, there's a problem. I believe the 1kw xmitter and the antenna size that nets about 12-14kw ERP is all that is allowed on a downtown rooftop bldg. Not sure whose restriction it is: RP,City of Denver, FCC.

Originally posted by RonAuger
I believe the 1kw xmitter and the antenna size that nets about 12-14kw ERP is all that is allowed on a downtown rooftop bldg. Not sure whose restriction it is: RP,City of Denver, FCC. Must be the Republic Plaza SCARE group:confused:

A long long time ago I remember someone posting that the antennas are at maximum height unless they go thru a lengthly process with the County of Denver. So it may be possible to increase the antenna height with a lot of effort on the paperwork front. I am not sure if the rooftop can withstand more structure though and that could take analysis to determine. The problems don't end there though. Increasing the size of the transmitter takes power - AC power - and again depending upon the situation could mean more wiring from the ground floor to the transmitter room (which is likely near the antenna). And after that there is heat. We all know what a kind of heat a 100W bulb makes - big RF transmitters aren't 100% efficient and require cooling (likely liquid) and that must be engineered into the final solution. They could possibly combine some channels (KUSA and KMGH) <cough, cough> into a common antenna though and that could simplify the permit and installation process (and complicate the engineering).

From my perspective it makes more sense to put some of that on Morrison and Lookout. KUSA and KMGH could possibly share an antenna with KRMA. Likewise KCNC could maybe be multiplexed with KWGN.

One other problem they would have to work out is interferrence concerns. For minimal problems some of the stations should be co-located on (or near) the same tower (ie, KUSA, KMGH, KUSA and KTVD are 16, 17, 18, 19, & 20).

Originally posted by HDTimeShifter
Personally, I'm going to remain on the sidelines with an HD capable widescreen TV, but remain HD tunerless, because I'm waiting for an acceptable HD recorder for timeshifting as well as the minimal amount of programming and reception.

Why? If you wait too long, Hollywood will have completely bought out Congress and the current (though limited) HD STB tuners will no longer have firewire in/out.

I recently obtained the Samsung SIR T165 STB and the JVC HM DH30000U D-VHS deck. I am large HD displayless, using the Samsung SyncMaster 171MP for my computer monitor and HD monitor.

But, the tuner/D-VHS combo that I have will supply timeshifting without a problem. The neat thing is that the STB can control the box, i.e., so when the tuner timer says it is time to record, it will turn on the D-VHS deck and start it recording, using the firewire connection.

Visit the other appropriate forums that discuss these items. Like I said, don't wait too long or Hollywood will get their DTV recording flag and you'll be SOL.

Well picked up a Samsung 160 for DirectTV and Off air.... Sadly, only receive 31 and 53 off air, of no real value. Thought my location would give a shot at the 4,6, and 9. Location at 6500 feet in CRock, and had directional ant pointed towards Denver (though in attic). 31 and 53 great signal didnt matter which direction I pointed ant those two came in, but with 31 only a low res and 53 have little content, no point. Any thoughts before I pack it up and return..... Honestly not worth it for 1 or 2 satl channels.

Try for 11-1 in Colorado Springs (VHF 10). But remember you will
need a VHF antenna.

VHF antenna perhaps that is my problem... using normal TV type ant? What types ant suggested? Thanks.

By normal I take it to mean that it is a VHF/UHF combo unit. If this is
true then all you would have to do is point it South.

DirecTV will have 7 HD channels by July 1st. And with more tweaking, I think you might still get KCNC (35), KRMA (18), and KUSA (16). I do at 6200' just north of Elizabeth with an attic mount RS VHF/UHF ant. I also have a signal amp and a dist amp with an FM trap, both with very very low gain. That happens to be what works for me. Increasing the gain alittle or bypassing one or the aother amp and my signal drops just below my receivers threshold. I took a while to figure out just what combination works for me. With perseverance, you probably could do the same. Besides, you need something to pass the 18 months before full power from Lookout appears. :)

This is going to sound like one of those "talked to a CSR and.." posts with no real information found in the HDTV Programming Forum. Well I guess it is now my turn.. :)

I got home today and in the mailbox is a card from Comcast. It was about to go into the trash when I noticed a small caption at the bottom; "Ask about High Definition Television on Comcast Digital Cable." OK, I'm hooked so lets see if they can reel me in.

I called and talked to a lady who was really nice and even went to a supervisor to try and get more information. She said I was the first person to call about it (woohoo!). She did not have any hard information so none of this is written in stone. She thought the start date would be late July or early August in areas that have digital cable. I asked about what channels would be available and she said that there might be 7 available (yeah right). HBO and Showtime seemed for sure and some locals. She mentioned ABC and CBS specifically but she didn't sound very sure on that. Said other locals were "in negotiation." Now were have I heard that before? ;)

Unfortunately my area does not have digital cable completely rolled out yet so I will still be without local HDTV if this happens. Still, I think this is good news. We dumped cable a long time ago and this might be enough to pull me back in.



Steve

Given the fact that DirecTv is evidently messing around with HD signals by compressing them and the fact that a final Lookout solution is not going to happen much before 2005 (if then) I think we all ought to be hoping Comcast decides to embrace HD. This is their opportunity to take viewers from Satellite (unless they too elect to play games crapping up HD pictures).

I wonder if I can tell them I don't want KMGH HD....

I just got off the phone with a Comcast CSR and she also confirmed that HDTV should be available in the Denver area in August! She initially told me fall, but then found more information as we were talking that stated August. She also said that HBO, Showtime, Discovery HD, and some local channels would be available. She was actually a bit confused about Discovery and thought that it was the regular cable channel, until I explained that they created a separate HD channel (which I happened to be watching on Dish at the time I called). She was able to confirm that I am in one of the rebuilt areas that will be able to receive the channels and added me to a list of people interested.

Hopefully these dates are correct and the price for HD will not be too much!

Also, Dish has a survey posted on their site about HD. I think that it only works for Dish subscribers, too bad I didn't get any information on it directly from Dish. I found out about it from the HDTV Magazine that I get emailed to me each day! Here is the link:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/popUps/products/survey/hdtv.asp?section=programming

Steve

Steve,
Dish has got to be kiddin' with those questions! like... "How Much" would I want to pay for the World Series in HD? Well, how about nothing!

Remember the 85% number is largely dependent on Comcast. Figure 50-75% of home have cable and in Denver that means Comcast. So if Comcast makes digital cable boxes available to everybody for free or even requires digital cable boxes - a large percentage of homes with be digital ready.

Throw in the 10-15% that already receive a 'digital' signal via E* and DirecTV and you may not need any OTA to meet 85%.

However since large portions of Comcast's network is still not 'upgraded' I don't see much happening soon. And dumping analog (requiring a box) will tick off a lot of people with VCRs, PIP, TiVo, etc.

Been out of town for few days -- here are my thoughts on the last few topics of discussion (if any of you care :) )

re: Full power from Republic -- couple of problems. First, C&C of Denver want to know if there are any alternate locations that could provide TV service to Denver. Sound familiar? Second, Lookout Mtn is over 1000' higher in altitude than the top of Republic Plaza. In broadcasting, altitude = coverage. The stations don't want to decrease (and in fact, can't per the FCC) their area of coverage when they switch to digital.

re: Comcast HDTV -- sounds promising. Keep in mind that in the rest of the country, in areas with a CBS O&O station (like we have here), and Comcast, there is no CBS HDTV on cable. So I wouldn't count on seeing KCNC-DT on Comcast in August. I asked Don Perez when we were at KUSA if they'd be on Comcast when they roll out their HDTV package. He mentioned that Comcast has a history of trying to cram a 19.2 mbps DTV stream into fewer mpbs (sorry, don't know if he gave a specific number), so there were concerns with how their HDTV signal would look over cable. Obviously, since they've made the *cough* big investment *cough* in HDTV, they want their picture to look as good over cable as it does OTA. BTW - this is the same thing that's keeping O&O CBS off of Comcast at the moment.

re: Dumping analog (requiring a box) ticking off people with analog recording devices -- I haven't seen a digital box yet (including my HDTV tuners) that didn't have an analog output.

re: HD timeshifting -- if you have a spare computer lying around (or the bucks to buy a new one), I'm really enjoying the HiDTV Pro tuner for timeshifting OTA HDTV. If it's HD satellite you're looking to 'shift, DirecTV/TiVo have announced an HDirecTiVo (or more correctly, a DirecTV HDTV Digital Video Recorder with TiVo service) for the end of the year. Dish Network has a Dish 921 under development -- each box will be able to record HDTV from their respective satellite provider. You can find more info about the TiVo over at the www.tivocommunity.com and the 921 here in the HDTV Recorders (I think) forum. I'm sure markdl will be able to fill you in as well :)

I live in Highlands Ranch University & C470 and have an ok line of site to down town. Is there anyone in this area that has found a good combo of OTA HD tuner and antenna that is around $300 or less. I have been to the denverdtv website and seems like people have been getting KCNC, KMGH, KUSA, and Fox's version of HD. I am switching from Comcast to DirectTV my "digital" cable is horrible and even though the are suppose to be doing HDTV by August I have heard a ton of bad things about the quality of the analog 1-99 and HD channels with the Moto 5100. I would like to buy the Zenith 520 for Direct but to much money in my mind right now. So if I could get the local HD with a $300 setup I would be happy for the next year while the satellite and cable companies have their price wars. Then buy a satellite HD tuner:) What do u think, Thanks guys and sorry if you have answered this question 20 times already I tried to read through all the post but after about 100 I was losing my mind.

Zach

I haven't heard of any set top boxes in the $300 range yet. More like $500-600. If you have a spare PC, you can get a HD Tuner on a PCI card for ~$350.

The Samsung SIR T151 is in that price range be creative with a Wal Mart search....., I don't really want this one because it doesn't have VGA , but if this box isn't total crap then maybe I could live with it? I found this in the HDTV hardware forum and should probally ask this question there, but wanted to see what you guys who are actually getting good signals in my area are using...

On the HD Programming page it has been announced that Fox will broadcast in HD by 2004 and possibly by the end of this year. So, those of us in Greeley, Ft. Collins, etc. may get Fox in HD out of Denver OTA before any other station! What a turn of events that would be (Faux ---> Fox-HD!)

Now if they could just work on the lip-sync problem.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zeff
[B]I live in Highlands Ranch University & C470 and have an ok line of site to down town. Is there anyone in this area that has found a good combo of OTA HD tuner and antenna that is around $300 or less.
======================================
Zeff,
I 'm in Highlands Ranch just off Quebec and North of University.
I have had excellent results with an OTA outside , wall mounted anntenna pointed at Lookout Mnt.-Downtown.

The antenna is from Weingard. It is a 8 bay multi bow, model No. 4228a. I found out about this from a series of posts on this forum. The antenna was bought from Warren Electronics @ warrrenelectronics.com---as I didn't locate a retailer for it in Denver at that time.

As to an OTA / Direct TV receiver, I own a ( now discontinued) Panasonic and my son just bought the current Zenith model . We're both happy with ours. The tuner will cost you more than $300 though based on what my son paid.The antenna is less than $100.

Good luck and hope this helps.

Well with the help of some suggestions here, can now receive off air HDTV for ch 4, 6, 9, 31, and 53, never felt I had a chance at 7.

Observations from the process.

Location is quite good, at 6500 feet, though in Castle Rock, so some distance. Exact location is roughly 3 miles NE of downtown Castle Rock, on the high ground between Castle Rock and Franktown, and north of Highway 86. Despite having an excellent VHF/UHF antenna in the attic, no amount of adjusting the antenna would result in reception. I am someone surprised at that as didnt feel the wood/shingles of the house would attenuate the signal as much as it must have.

Purchase a $29 Radio Shack UHF beam type ant, and mounting on side of house at just 10 feet or so up (no where near rooftop height of 30 feet or so), and pointing north towards downtown Denver, signals for 4, 6, 9, 31, and 53 all received fine. I have not taken the time to experiment pointing south towards the Colorado Sprigns area so cannot comment on that.

Using a Samsung DirectTV 160, verdect not in if it is worth the $600 to have a receiver that gets the combination off air and directtv, as well as tying me into DirectTV with monthly charge. But still have over 3 weeks to test both off air and DirectTV HD before decision time with return or not to Circuit City.

Any advice on sticking with off air or going combo route appreciated, in particular with comments on DirectTV. If DirectTV HD not worth it then off air only may be better choice. Abandoning DirectTV would be expensive as have 4 converters and 2 dishes installed here, and no one complaining about the normal DirectTV service.

Thanks again to those who responded on the forum.

Zeff,
Best buy is now selling a Samsung DirecTV and OTA for $399. Lowest I have seen. Maybe they could get you the Samsung OTA only version on a special order for less. Antennas don't cost much, even for the best ones.

Skyview,
You probably know the channels that D* has. HBO, Show, and HDnet plus a PPV HD channel. I personally think Sho is not worth anything programming wise and the movie choices are minimal on the PPV channel. IE, we never watch it or spend $5.99. BUT, for $10.99 they are adding on July 1, HDNet Movies (oldies but goodies mostly), DiscoverHD (I think this is well worth it) and ESPNHD (will be good, but not much in HD now). You have to buy one of their total choice packages to get this and have a bunch of SD channels you won't watch very much. So, you decide.