I believe that KCNC DT-35 will be on the air by November, I'm just not sure which year. I'm not holding my breath, based on all the previous dates that have passed for the whole local HDTV transmission situation in general. I just wish KCNC's current analog signal were better. For me, either over the air, cable, or satellite, KCNC channel 4 is the worst picture of any channel I can get, which is a big bummer for the Bronco games.

My worst analog station of the majors is channel 2. Unless the Alzheimers is getting serious, I thought I understood that KWGN has property that is zoned such that they should be on the air as required (since they are independent) by next spring. I look forward to their digital signal, even if it is not HD, since I will at least be able to watch them OTA. Currently I have to pull their picture off of C-Band on GE-7. This runs counter to those folks who argued that 8VSB would not be able to cover the same area as analog. Even though the coverage of Fox 32 is not HD, the picture on it has a lot less problem from multipath than Fox 31 analog.

I agree, channel 2 is the worst. I don't even watch the Rockies when they are on channel 2. I heard that this is due to interference with cell phones. Not sure if this is true or not. Getting them digital would be great, as long as I don't have to rotate my antenna to get them. Not much room up in the attic for that.

Joe

Originally posted by joej
I agree, channel 2 is the worst. I don't even watch the Rockies when they are on channel 2.......Getting them digital would be great, as long as I don't have to rotate my antenna to get them. Not much room up in the attic for that.

Joe

That is one of my several major concerns about a few of the stations being pushed by Jeffco to locate on Eldorado while some like KDVR and KWGN and others stay on Lookout. For many people in the area, it would require a rooftop rotator antenna to be able to get a clean signal from both positions. The old attic antenna just wouldn't cut it for many. Just picture all those homes around Lookout, Golden and along the front range trying to put up rooftop antennas again. The HOA's all over the front range would be going nuts trying to stop that. I would bet there would be a TON of complaints and suits filed against Jeffco, and counter suits filed against people with rooftop antennas. It might be a good time to be a lawyer, but it would just make the ugly situation even uglier.

Hi all! Good to see I'm not along here in Colorado wanting some HDTV!

I'm in Aurora (Tower and Hampden) and have on the way a monitor capable of ... DTV (not HDTV). It's the Sony KL-W9000 and it will do 480P.

Now I show my ignorance - any way to get 480P DTV without a converter box? Any REASON to downconvert HDTV to 480P? (Will I notice a difference?)

FWIW, those of you with DirectTV, this weekend on HDNet.

3:00PM ET College Football North Dakota State @ University of Northern Colorado
in HDTV format (which actually should be great to see).

Those of you with DISH can watch

1:30 PM MT LSU @ Alabama in HDTV from CBS.

Those of you with tickets can watch Mizzou @ CU in Boulder in person (even better than HD).


Finally, those of you with HDTV's and OTA receivers can watch the paint on your walls dry.

Once again, thanks to the folks from (S)CARE, Jeffco, and last but not least thanks for the effort from KCNC, KUSA and KMGH to bring us OTA HD here in Denver! (Last time I checked, I still have not got a test signal on channel 35 DTV.)
:mad:

Yesterday, I had an opportunity to drive past Lookout Mountain on the way to Golden and Highway 93. I yearned for a day when the antennas up there would be projecting HDTV all over the metropolitan area!
I also noticed some things moderately interesting:
1. The blight of housing in the area around Lookout Mountain detracts from the beauty of the mountain and unlying valley. If they are so concerned about the "backdrop"--then they better move and demolish their houses. They are part of the problem.
2. The housing is at the BOTTOM of Lookout Mountain. Is the broadcast from these towers spherical? Does it project significantly downwards? Forgive my question, but I am not a broadcast engineer. I am thinking that the actual "radiation" emitted from the towers is minimal on the houses in question.
AND 3. There are high tension power lines in the area, crossing through the residential area. Do these people not realize how dangerous it is to live around electrical transmission wires?! My god, the radiation increases cancer incidence significantly. I had a neighbor.....
:-)p

I would move away RIGHT AWAY.
Give it up (S)CARE folks. In a couple of years, you will have no choice. Leave your homes NOW if you are so concerned for your health and the backdrop.
The national affiliates will locate their new towers for digital broadcasting. Then Jeffco will not have a word in the proceedings, it will be federal law.

Rant started after reading JMartinko's post!
Rant now ended. You can return to your normal and non-HDTV programming.

dan

Originally posted by JMartinko


That is one of my several major concerns about a few of the stations being pushed by Jeffco to locate on Eldorado while some like KDVR and KWGN and others stay on Lookout. For many people in the area, it would require a rooftop rotator antenna to be able to get a clean signal from both positions. The old attic antenna just wouldn't cut it for many. Just picture all those homes around Lookout, Golden and along the front range trying to put up rooftop antennas again. The HOA's all over the front range would be going nuts trying to stop that. I would bet there would be a TON of complaints and suits filed against Jeffco, and counter suits filed against people with rooftop antennas. It might be a good time to be a lawyer, but it would just make the ugly situation even uglier.

There isn't ANYTHING the HOA's can do to prevent you from putting up an antenna to recieve OTA local stations. Not only that, but if they try, it's up to them to prove to the FCC that their rules are valid - not the homeowner to prove they aren't ! See the link in my signature for details.

Scooper
I am aware of the FCC regulations. As someone with a 12 foot and 3.5 foot dish antennas and a 7 foot UHF in the yard I have examined the rules on these issues in great detail. I have had my C-Band dish for years, and have moved it from house to house. In fact though, many HOA agreements include specific statements in which you may have agreed not to install outdoor antennas. If you sign an agreement which specifically gives up your right to something, then I would suspect there are many HOA's who will be happy to make your life miserable for putting up an antenna. Even if they can't legally get the antenna brought down, there are other ways to make you aware of their displeasure. They may, for example, fine you for putting your garbage out too early or some other nonsense thing. I would not want to be the first to PO a HOA group, regardless of what my legal grounds were.

I specifically bought in an area without an HOA after eliminating many areas of Boulder for that reason, so for me it is not an issue. I simply pointed it out as a fact of life. Many HOA groups do not understand the antenna law, and once they do, may find other ways to make life miserable for someone who offends them. It's not my problem, but I will bet if the stations are all over the front range mountains you will see some nasty stories in the papers in the future about people losing their tempers with each other. Just my $0.02 for the weekend.

Checked again, still no signal on KCNC-DT channel 35.

I have been President, Vice-President and Treasurer of a Homeowners Association. When we rewrote out covenants several years ago I made sure there were no objectionable provisions. I still live in the same HOA area. I have a ten foot C/Ku Band dish in my back yard. I have two DISH antennas and a Bell ExpressVu antenna on the side of my house and a rotating OTA antenna on my roof. I was thinking of adding a DirectTV system until the Echostar/Hughes merger was announced. I decided not to add any more equipment until the new standards are defined.

Do not let a member of the HOA board try to intimidate you. If you want action run for election to the Board. Few people want to take the time to serve on HOA boards. Quite often there are vacancies waiting to be filled.

Lets get KCNC-DT on the air.

Hot
I don't question the legality of having the antennas. I was thinking back to a thread here on the AVS forum from about 3 months ago where one HOA (I think it was in Texas) actually went on someone's property and removed his LSD from his home when he wasn't home. When he later confronted them with the FCC rules they agreed to let him have his equipment back only after he paid them $50 to cover their cost of having it removed. I wouldn't have paid it myself, but in his case, he did pay it in order to avoid even further hastles and threats from his neighbors. If you have read any of the C-Band forums over the years, you probably know that at least about once or twice a month there are threads about people who are fighting HOA's in order to get their LSD equipment back or to try to keep neighbors from seeing their gear. I would suspect the issue is even more common on some of the LSD forums.

Apartment and condo dwellers may also have serious problems too. They may be entitled to put up an antenna, but it is not always practical to put up a outdoor UHF antenna and rotator on your outdoor deck or on the side of a structure (if you are not on the top floor). Many apartment and condo buildings do put up a common antenna for everyone to use, but that won't work if the stations are in two different locations.

As I mentioned, it is not a problem I have to worry about, but I will bet you we will hear of a ton of problems all over the area if the major stations split their locations.

I have a question for anyone with any information regarding picking up KMGH:ABC, specifically in the north metro Denver area. I have indoor antennas (RS rabbit and double bow tie). I am approximately 10-12 miles from downtown Denver at N39deg54 W104deg57 in Thornton at an elevation of 5245 ft.

With my current setup I am able to pick up OTA all analog stations except WGN channel 2 very strongly. I am able to pick up with digital signal strength >80 PBS:KRMA and FOX:KDVR on my DST-3000.

I am unable to pick up, at any time, ABC:KMGH or CBS:KCNC.... but there is usually an indicator for KMGH. On Mondays, during MNF I usually make an attempt to see if I can pick up KMGH. Last Monday, I had a signal strength (while I was touching my antenna array!) of peak 12. No where near enough for any kind of reception required to see a picture even briefly. I know that CBS:KCNC is not on the air yet.

I have tried multiple times to pick up the low power ABC broadcast. I also tried a couple of different "amplifiers" that only made my strong digital signals worse. (They did not help at all).

My question, that I have asked people at TV shops and Radio Shack without much direction is this:

**Would a roof top antenna--pointed towards downtown--allow me to pick up the low power KMGH OTA HDTV signal? I would like to know if ANYONE in Thornton is picking up KMGH:ABC with an antenna. Would anyone like to recommend a specific antenna?

I went to antennaweb.com. It was not much help. I want to know if under any circumstances I might be able to pick up ABC and future CBS broadcasts with an outdoor antenna. If not, then why invest in an antenna and installation time?

Anyone?

Dan Leithauser

About all I can say is you wont know for sure until you try when it comes to 17. Odds though are probably not very good. I'd go to Radio Shack and get their 80" UHF Yagi. Get it up as high as you can. Try one of the amps with it if you still have one. At least if you buy it from RS you should be able to take it back if it's fruitless.

Wih the receiver you have you'll probably need a consistent 37 on the strength meter at the very least to lock it in without breakups. I use the Mitsu receiver with the same antenna setup living way down south and west and thats what works for me. But even at that I can usually only lock in good in the evening hours. But thats good enough I suppose since thats when the HD is on anyway.

Dan said,
**Would a roof top antenna--pointed towards downtown--allow me to pick up the low power KMGH OTA HDTV signal? I would like to know if ANYONE in Thornton is picking up KMGH:ABC with an antenna. Would anyone like to recommend a specific antenna?


Unfortunately, the only way to know for sure is to try it. Height is a definite advantage - the higher the better. KMGH is broadcasting low power but (IMO) they took the easy (and cheap) way out by putting the antenna atop their relatively short building (in all fairness perhaps they didn't think they'd be using that setup for very long).

Obstructions are also part of the equation. If you can draw a line from your house to the KMGH antenna and not have any significant obstructions between the two antenna's then you stand a good chance. However if there is a big building between you and KMGH then your chances won't be so good. So, what works for one person in Thorton may not work for another because line of sight blockages will vary depending upon your exact location (i.e., reception may be vastly different a block away from you). If you do not have good line of sight then you might try rotating your antenna very slowly to see if you can pick up a relfected signal.

Dan
FWIW, I have never even seen a sniff of a signal from KMGH on either my Unity Motion OTA module or a Zenith OTA receiver I have hooked up. I am in the northern end of Boulder and I do get a clean signal from KRMA in downtown, but only with the 80" UHF antenna from Radio Shack and some serious pointing. I lose signal if I move the antenna a couple of degrees either way. I do have Davidson Mesa between my home and Denver though. I don't recall anyone on the north end of town ever reporting reception of KMGH, but I don't recall that many have tried either. Like the guys have said, you won't know for sure tell you try. A tall building or a ridge could kill it for you due to the low power signal, but 'nothing ventured nothing gained'.

If you do try, a word of advice, bypass or totally eliminate any signal splitters from your setup. Those of us on the fringe have found them to be signal killers. Run your cable from the antenna directly to the receiver (even if you have to run it in a window or door) and keep it as short as possible until you find something. From my location I have also found the pointing is critical, so make sure you know where to point, and adjust the pointing in each direction a tiny bit at a time. You may be able to pick up a skip or deflection rather than the main signal, so keep trying. If you give it a shot, good luck, and don't forget to let us know of any successes.

I just noticed Bob Ross of CBS finally gave me a round about reply to my questions on KCNC in another thread on Saturday's game. The thread is at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90163

The comments were:

quote:
Originally posted by JMartinko
"Glad to hear you alll thought the picture was better than usual today. Hey Bob, the picture in Denver today was, well, you can guess, we didn't see it. KCNC is still not on the air at even low power. Can you explain to us why??? "


Off the top of my head.... I know they were waiting for some RF parts for the transmitter. Not sure what else.

Bob


CBS New York
rjross@cbs.com

*******
I think that is as good an answer as we are going to get from anyone. I don't think we can get CBS or KCNC to comment on CBS national pulling the plug on funding the local transmitter on the Republic Building.

Originally posted by dleithaus
I would like to now if ANYONE in Thornton is picking up KMGH:ABC with an antenna.
Anyone?

Dan Leithauser [/B]


I'm near 104th and Colo with a small outdoor RS yagi (w/rotator) and I don't get even a flicker for KMGH (17).
I have been wondering if I might have sucess even 5 ft higher? Bigger antenna?

Pete

Pete,

You live very close to me (I am at 115th and Clayton), BUT I have the 104th Avenue "ridge" to the south. When I am on my roof I can see downtown--that is why I was asking my original question. I should be able to pick up the signal with a rooftop antenna. If the signal is not strong enough to go 10-12 miles from downtown (as the crow flies) it is a truly sad situation.

You should be able to get it where you are; I have had doubts about my indoor system being able to pick it up due to 104th ridge. Maybe it is a directional problem--as JMartinko indicates above. If you want I could help you point the antenna --it is always easier with two people-- I would rather see if we could get yours working before spending time and money on mine!

Call me if you like--my number is in the phone book.

Dan Leithauser

Dan, do you have the seconds for your long/lat location, i show you to be 12.07 miles from KMGH.

Please advise.

Hi guys,

Just a reminder that the planning and zoning commision should be making it's final recommendation to the Jeffco commisioners in a public hearing this coming Wednesday re: El Dorado Mountain re-zoning. Search back through the thread for when/where/what if you would like to attend.

Also, if you have not responded to the El Dorado Mountain poll I posted (and would like to) I think tomorrow is the last day to respond to it as I set the expiration date to 8 days from when I posted the poll. Again, search back through the thread for the link to the poll.

-John

pookers,
My exact location for the stinger missile strike on my HDTV is N39deg54.141 W104deg57.114. This information comes directly from my Garmin GPS.
What are you going to do with this data?

dL

DAN:

From a friend at work with software to install microwave shots:

If he can get a UHF antenna at 50 feet or higher he will clear a little hill between him and
the station.

The hill is about 1.5 miles from him toward the station.

I used this to get a point of attack from my location (out by Buckley) LOS from Lookout (of course) and from Republic, still attempting to get channel 17 myself. I will let EVERYONE know of my success !

Originally posted by dleithaus
1. The blight of housing in the area around Lookout Mountain detracts from the beauty of the mountain and unlying valley. Right On.

2. The housing is at the BOTTOM of Lookout Mountain. Is the broadcast from these towers spherical? Does it project significantly downwards? Forgive my question, but I am not a broadcast engineer. I have not been up there in awhile, but supposedly in one of the proposals the HDTV antenna could fall on a house if it fell over at the base. I think they concentrate power horizontally, but there is quite a bit of spherical power. There are spots on the ground that exceed FCC approved levels and are fenced off. Supposedly it is the FM stations that are causing that though.
3. There are high tension power lines in the area, crossing through the residential area. If you get rid of all the antennas, you don't need the high tension lines that feed them.

2. The housing is at the BOTTOM of Lookout Mountain. Is the broadcast from these towers spherical? Does it project significantly downwards? Forgive my question, but I am not a broadcast engineer.FYI, There are houses nestled amongst the towers as well as behind them (up "on top").

---

As pointed out above the JeffCo planning board meets tonight (5:30) to consider the Eldorado application. As I recall they will either recommend or deny the application. I believe that if they recommend the application it will then go to the County Commissioners for a final approval (in December). If the Planning board denies the application then Pinnacle can go to the JeffCo Board of Appeals...(someone please correct me if this is wrong)...

From what I've seen at Jeffco in the past, the Planning Commission is a recommendation body that refers it's recommendation for approval or denail to the County Commissioners, (I think the Planning Commissioners actual approval authority statutorily stops short of being absolute since they are not elected officials, but rather, appointed officials). I'm not sure if the board of appeals would apply here or not, it depends on the current zoning and whatever is approved as the current development plan. The County Commissioners are the land use approval entity, and they weigh referral recommendations from planning/zoning/engineering/legal staff, the planning commission, constituents (the public), outside agencies (fire & utilities), economic impact, etc., in making their final decision. I have seen the Jefferson County Commissioners approve land use cases that have not had favorable recommendation from the planning commission. The only place planning commission seems to have true approval authority is for location and extent approval for new PSCo power substations. I observed the above over my few years working in the land development industry. I don't know the Planning Commission's approval authority in this case, or if the board of appeals would apply or not, nor would I speculate on what the Jefferson County Commissioners would decide in this case since it is hot politically.

Wow, what a night... I think that tonight will have a large impact on our OTA HDTV future.

There's nothing like something being shot down or not :D

-John

Originally posted by JohnJr
Wow, what a night... I think that tonight will have a large impact on our OTA HDTV future.

There's nothing like something being shot down or not :D

-John

John
I certainly don't share your vision of tonight being a turning point. I am quite sure that "if" the Eldorado site is approved you will see this in a court case of some sort brought by the people of Eldorado and Boulder County, and even "if" Pinnacle won those cases, the local networks have stated many times they will never relocate to Eldorado, and I don't doubt their resolve.

The only impact, or "turning point" I can foresee at this point is that on the blight of antennas and lights blinking along the front range. In terms of our ability to receive HD, I don't see the impact. At best, you could someday see UPN 20 (although my sources have told me they do NOT think that they are the ones who have talked to Pinnacle as we had assumed) or some of the religious stations on Eldorado, and I don't think any of them will be broadcasting in HD any time soon, digital maybe, but not HD.

Just my $0.02, I know I disagree with some of you on this one, but that's why its called a forum.

Brian, I think you're may be right about the BOA - thanks for the correction.

I don't see this as a turning point either - for reasons such as the ensuing legal battles that jmartinko mentioned as well as the fact the stations (that matter) have repeatedly stated they have no intention of moving there. Yes, maybe some stations will locate there but if they're showing reruns of Gilligan's Island I don't really care if it's digital or not... Further, as mentioned by Brian, this meeting will produce nothing more than a recommendation (yea or nay) to the County Commissioners and absolutely nothing will be really be decided until they decide.....

Again, we might want to be careful what we hope for...IF this is approved and IF the stations are sincere in their statements of never moving there this will likely increase their difficulties of getting Lookout approved. I don't know what is the best answer and I am not going to be surprised, nor elated, nor dejected by any resulting decision...there is just too much we do not know about the real intentions of the parties involved.

PS: Personally if I were to wager on this I'd bet it gets recommended and not declined.....

I do think this decision has the possibility of changing minds/motivating people. LCG/etc will not be able to hide behind zoning difficulties... something else maybe but not zoning/construction difficulties.

It may well go to court, but AFAIK the first step would have to be Boulderites obtaining an injunction against Pinnacle's building. I'll just be happy to see the "opponents" on the other side, fighting the uphill challenge.

Don't you think that the FCC would have more impetus to demand the local broadcasters move with suitable zoned space available? I know that the FCC hasn't neccesarily been our friend in this and realize that this is getting worse in that regard more than better, but still... If they wanted to set there foot down, couldn't they with this ruling?

As far as LCG and it's members stations goes, I see no reason that any one of those stations might not break-out of the group (there seems to be little to be gained by being a part of it) and take the active step of initiating DTV/HD broadcast from El Dorado. Once one does, while it may not be a free-for-all I would certainly say that it will raise the level of pressure on the rest.

CBS for one is (supposedly) already paying rent to Republic Plaza for their Low Power Transmitter (hmmmm :) We know KRMA is.

What is to stop LCG from negotiating as a group for better rates on El Dorado?

CBS-Corp, ABC-Corp, (NBC can't lol) certainly are not going to reduce HDTV content, IMHO... and the consumers (early, middle and late adopters that they are) will certainly some day start demanding more and more.

-John

Don't you think that the FCC would have more impetus to demand the local broadcasters move with suitable zoned space available?No, not at all.

1) The FCC isn't pressuring any station to get on the air.
2) The FCC cannot tell stations to build facilities that they can (arguably) say will be affecting their coverage area causing them to loose too many viewers.
3) I don't think the FCC can persuade any station to ignore the financial bottom line and build facilities that may not be within the financial structure of what the station is willing/can afford to pay.

As far as LCG and it's members stations goes, I see no reason that any one of those stations might not break-out of the group (there seems to be little to be gained by being a part of it) and take the active step of initiating DTV/HD broadcast from El Dorado. Once one does, while it may not be a free-for-all I would certainly say that it will raise the level of pressure on the rest. Perhaps, but we do not know that, and if we assume that and it doesn't happen and JeffCo then gets even more difficult to deal with in terms of Lookout this could be a big step backwards. Like I said above, we just do not know the real intentions of the stations and I don't think it's prudent to assume anything here (especially with regard to their will to get on the air). Without factual info we are flying in the blind.....

CBS for one is (supposedly) already paying rent to Republic Plaza for their Low Power Transmitter (hmmmm We know KRMA is. In all likelihood this is a mere pittance compared to Eldorado rent. You can "rent a wreck" or rent a Lexus and the charges do not even compare....

CBS-Corp, ABC-Corp, (NBC can't lol) certainly are not going to reduce HDTV content, IMHO... and the consumers (early, middle and late adopters that they are) will certainly some day start demanding more and more. Yeah, but if there are only several hundred HDTV owners in this area do you think the local stations really care about lost viewership for HDTV? It's the local stations that have to be convinced, not the networks. I agree the networks may be able to pressure their affiliates but how much good has that done them so far? According to the last "Mark's Monday Memo" there were a grand total of 217 stations (or 211 depending on who you believe) on the air digitally and some of those affiliates don't even pass the HD feed (i.e., Phoenix)....If networks can pressure their affiliates why can't CBS pressure the Phoenix CBS station to pass the HD content instead of just broadcasting a digital version of NTSC?

The Jefferson County Planning Commission just voted to recommend denial of the Eldorado tower site. The reasons stated were:
1. Not in compliance with plans or regs, specifically;
[list=a]
access is unresolved
unresolved fire protection issues
availability of other sites to handle proposed equipment, i.e. they did not list specific equipment/channels to be at the site
did not meet tower face area requirements
[/list=a]
2. Incompatibility with surrounding land uses
[list=a]
Visual
Noise impacts
[/list=a]

So, they move forward to the Board of County Commissioners (on Dec 10th) with a recommendation of denial from the Planning Commission.

I will elaborate more later, it is late and I am tired.

-Wabisabi

Wabisabi
Thanks for posting a report from the meeting this late at night, we all appreciate your report. I will have to digest things a bit before commenting.

I will post any articles which appear in tomorrow's Daily Camera, as I know they planned to cover the meeting as well.

Reject plan for towers, board urges

Jeffco panel: Digital TV proposal a scenic blight

By Owen S. Good, News Staff Writer

GOLDEN -- Jefferson County's Planning Commission on Wednesday night recommended that the county's commissioners reject a proposal to place three supertowers on Eldorado Mountain to broadcast digital television.
The unanimous and comprehensive rejection called the plan, put forth by Pinnacle Towers Inc., inconsistent with current land uses in the scenic corridor, which lies just inside Jeffco's northern border.

The Planning Commission also had troubles with a proposed heliport and murky access rights to the property, a road that the local fire department said its engines couldn't handle.

But mostly, three 450-foot towers could not be camouflaged against the scenic landscape, the commission said, despite Pinnacle's assurances to the contrary. The site currently has one 180-foot tower.

The Jefferson commissioners will make a binding decision on the proposal at their Dec. 10 meeting.

Wednesday night's meeting, the last of three held since September, began with Boulder County officials asking the Jeffco commission to reject the proposal on grounds that it would spoil an area enjoyed by many in both counties.

"We feel this is still an inappropriate site, given all the land uses in the area," said Peter Fogg of Boulder County's land use department. "There is no objective evidence that there is a societal, economic or tax-base generation benefit to Jefferson County.

"We don't feel it's in the best interests of Jefferson County to be approving this site when there are alternative sites available."

Fogg asked the commission members to consider the longrange need for digital television, citing figures that show 75 percent of the metro area relies on satellite or cable television. Pinnacle envisions the site as one day serving all digital broadcasting needs for the metro area.

Denver is one of three major television markets that has yet to fully implement digital television broadcasts. The federal government is giving broadcasters until 2006 to begin digital transmissions or lose their rights to the technology.

In its summary, Pinnacle said the towers emitted safe levels of electromagnetic radiation, would not blight the view of the mountain, and that a dispute over access to the site by a state-owned road could be resolved.

Denver attorney Tom Bromberg, retained by Pinnacle, also called opposition an "offensive" brand of not-in-my-backyard mentality.


November 8, 2001

While I have not said too much about this issue, AND as someone who owns lots of HDTV equipment and wants HDTV to take off, I have to say that I agree with the Eldorado folks. They may be reactionary, but if Pinnacle can't camo these towers and address the fire and road issues they do not deserve the privilege of doing business with Jeffco's blessing.

NOW with that said, lets return to the PROPER SITE for future towers--the already blighted Lookout Mountain. It already has towers on it AND is builtup above and below by the very residents who oppose more towers. Towers, power lines, houses--they all detract from the "beauty of the backdrop". As I have sarcastically indicated, the only solution to this is to get rid of ALL development including the residents houses! ....... otherwise allow Denver to move into the FCC mandated future by installing the proper equipment on Lookout Mountain

Dan

Here is the front page headline article in the Boulder Daily Camera today.

http://www.bouldernews.com/news/county/08atowr.html

Geof said,
PS: Personally if I were to wager on this I'd bet it gets recommended and not declined.....Now you all know why I'm not a gambling man.....

----

It will be interesting to see the Commissioners decision on Dec 10th and if Pinnacle plans to appeal the decison in District Court should they lose. Pinnacle specifically purchased this property with the intentions of leasing space and spent a considerable sum of money on the property and JeffCo application....

Anyone want to wager (err...not me...) how the LCG stations feel about this decision? Does anyone think they (less KRMA) might be happy with this turn of events?

What about (S)CARE - did they lose a little something here - does anyone know if they were pressing for approval???

The decison was based on the thought that Eldorado was an incompatible area for these towers - does that help or hurt Lookout? Or Morrison?

I'll restate something I said a long, long time ago, in this thread: I don't believe we should be placing towers all along the Front Range (for that matter I do not believe the Front Range should be developed at all). IMO, all of us should be happy that our Front Range view is being preserved by our Governmental Officials - it would be a terrible blight to look West and see TV towers and homes dotting the mountain sides. From this perspective I am pleased with the results thus far.....

Does anyone know more about the KRMA horizontal antenna structure they propose for Morrison? I'd be curious in learning more about this and how it will blend into the countryside - Bud are you there? Can you comment?

Personally I always felt there were too many holes in the Pinnacle application. They could not show that any major stations would be willing to relocate there, and the road to the top is at least as bad as advertised. Three cheers (at least from me) to the folks in Jeffco for finally getting something right. I must admit, I think JohnJr. may have been right that this was a turning point, in the sense that if we get a definitive rejection of Eldorado, it will increase the chances of something on Lookout finally being approved. I would see this as progress on a still very long road.

As for winners and losers (assuming the commission confirms this recommendation).

The LCG folks have got to be thrilled, it adds to their contention there are no alternative sites, and yet does nothing to allow them to get on the air. They get to stall some more, but their ultimate wish of staying on Lookout appears stronger today than before.

The (S)CARE folks were indeed supporting the Eldorado site. I had heard they had filed support letters, and many of their arguments against Lookout Towers pointed toward Eldorado as the best site available. I suspect there is a lump in some of their throats this morning too (although I am also sure they will blame the 'lump' on the RF radiation and their lack of sleep from the RF energy on their mountain).

I think this decision will help, but not lock in, the Lookout site for the towers. There are still many hurdles to be overcome by the LCG, if they ever chose to file an application and plan for their Lookout Towers.

Geof, on the subject of the horizontal antenna, in my conversations with the folks at KRMA, they did not seem to think it was a serious alternative. The impression I have is that they think it is a 'hairbrained idea' and do not take it seriously. I have not seen much of the technical side of the antenna, but I seriously doubt it could work as well as the normal vertical tower.

The LCG folks have got to be thrilled, it adds to their contention there are no alternative sites, and yet does nothing to allow them to get on the air. They get to stall some more, but their ultimate wish of staying on Lookout appears stronger today than before.That was my take on it as well when I posed the question and after having thought about it a bit more I still agree...

----
The (S)CARE folks were indeed supporting the Eldorado site. I had heard they had filed support letters, and many of their arguments against Lookout Towers pointed toward Eldorado as the best site available. I suspect there is a lump in some of their throats this morning too (although I am also sure they will blame the 'lump' on the RF radiation and their lack of sleep from the RF energy on their mountain).I suspected they supported this application. That being the case then this preliminary decision demonstrates they are fallible and that JeffCo doesn't necessarily acquiesce to their beckon call....

----
I think this decision will help, but not lock in, the Lookout site for the towers. There are still many hurdles to be overcome by the LCG, if they ever chose to file an application and plan for their Lookout Towers.Agreed....

----
Geof, on the subject of the horizontal antenna, in my conversations with the folks at KRMA, they did not seem to think it was a serious alternative. The impression I have is that they think it is a 'hairbrained idea' and do not take it seriously. I have not seen much of the technical side of the antenna, but I seriously doubt it could work as well as the normal vertical tower.I was wondering about that...with your antenna design background you ought to know if this scheme could work. I hadn't heard of this being used anywhere else. However I was under the [mistaken?] impression that this solution was part of a KRMA proposal to diminish the NIMBY concern...

I agree that the rejection of ElDorado probably does help the case on Lookout, since ElDorado was heavily promoted as an alternative site by CARE.

However, I get scared when I read this from the Daily Camera report:

"Why does Jefferson County have to be the pin cushion for all the towers?" Planning Commission Chairman Lewis Stieghorst said.

That's about as NIMBY as it gets, and it covers the whole county.

If I remember correctly, the planning commission recommended APPROVAL of the original supertower on Lookout.

Mark

Well I must say I am feeling dissapointed at the outcome of the Planning and Zoning recomendation. From my perspective it would have only been good to have an alternative available to Lookout and the s(CARE) croud.

The one benefit I do see is that now it's starting to look like Lookout or bust, and as has been pointed out here many a time before Lookout is the obvious and right choice for the towers.

I do remember something that was said during the tour of El Dorado that Geof, JM and I took, where Pinnacle's lawyer or Bill said something to the effect of that if they were denied re-zoning for the three tower plan, that they were going to proceed with building one tower, replacing the existing one, which they seem to believe they can do without any rezoning at all. Of course this would be fought... but I guess my point is that I'm sure El Dorado and Pinnacle are not done yet.

I am just going to have to resign myself to the fact that it really is going to take years to get OTA HD in Denver. I forget who said that they thought it would be 2008 before we had OTA HD here in Denver, so put me down for 2009.

-John

JohnJr,
I share your frustration for getting HDTV here anytime soon. I do believe we should focus though on who is really to blame and that is (IMO fairly clear) the stations themselves. They are talking out of both sides of their mouths on this issue (except for KRMA - Mr Morgese has been up front, open and honest with us). JeffCo has demonstrated (in my mind) that they listen to all parties and make a decision based on their own evaluation. IMO they've done this with the original LCG application and again last evening. I think we should be encouraged by their actions and not discouraged because I believe if anyone gets their act together on a decent application JeffCo will approve it.

Approval of the Eldorado site may have provided some motivating force (for either good or bad - we just don't know) but I believe the denial will also affect the outcome, perhaps in a positive fashion. It certainly does appear at this moment that Lookout, Morrison and Squaw are the only real sites left to consider. I suspect there might be a push for Squaw (from (S)CARE and perhaps some of our elected officials). If a Squaw push does happen this will keep things moving slowly because this site just basically sucks from a coverage point of view but is great from a NIMBY point of view.

Assuming the JeffCo Commissioners affirm the Eldorado denial the next big test will be KRMA and Morrison. I do believe approval of this application could be a significant turning point because it will get KRMA off of Lookout and out of the LCG. KRMA will be the undisputed leader in HDTV and the other stations will then have some reason to get their act together. If KRMA is no longer part of the LCG then the LCG project should become smaller in scope [hopefully] making it more palatable.

Another reason why I think the Morrison situation is crucial is because I'm confident that KRMA will have their act together and we all know they are motivated to succeed. Approval or denial of this application may well be a bellwether of applications that follow.

I agree with you that we likely haven't heard the last word from Pinnacle. They have too much money invested to just walk away. I remember something similar to what you mentioned above (they will modify their existing tower if their application is denied). Stay tuned (so to speak) for further developments but this would be much smaller in scope and will probably be fought in court.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Geof, on the subject of the horizontal antenna, in my conversations with the folks at KRMA, they did not seem to think it was a serious alternative. The impression I have is that they think it is a 'hairbrained idea' and do not take it seriously. I have not seen much of the technical side of the antenna, but I seriously doubt it could work as well as the normal vertical tower.

If KRMA thinks that the horizontal antenna will not work, they should remove it from their application. If not, they run the risk of Jeffco approving only the horizontal tower and not the 300' tall tower. If, on the other hand it will work, I think it is a creative idea that very well might impress the Jeffco people enough to approve it.

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi


If KRMA thinks that the horizontal antenna will not work, they should remove it from their application. If not, they run the risk of Jeffco approving only the horizontal tower and not the 300' tall tower. If, on the other hand it will work, I think it is a creative idea that very well might impress the Jeffco people enough to approve it.

-Wabisabi

I haven't been here in a while and I had to register as a new member.

In regard to the Morrison "horizontal tower being a hairbrained idea", I have no idea where that came from - certainly not James or me. KRMA's position is that we will consider all engineering configurations for the Morrison proposal. The idea is to get an antenna up in the air and if that means an unorthodox support structure than so be it.

Bud Rath
Director of Engineering KRMA-TV

Good to have you back Bud.

Most every TV Transmitting antenna I've seen stands vertically and the concept of placing one horizontally is intriguing to me. How much loss is there with this approach - can you make it up with antenna gain or do you need a bigger transmitter?? Are there any other significant benefits/drawbacks between the two approaches??

It would seem like a Horizontal antenna would quiet some of the "beauty of the backdrop" concerns if this is really viable....

Originally posted by Geof
Good to have you back Bud.

Most every TV Transmitting antenna I've seen stands vertically and the concept of placing one horizontally is intriguing to me. How much loss is there with this approach - can you make it up with antenna gain or do you need a bigger transmitter?? Are there any other significant benefits/drawbacks between the two approaches??

It would seem like a Horizontal antenna would quiet some of the "beauty of the backdrop" concerns if this is really viable....

We are not talking about a horizontal antenna. The design calls for a "long support structure", perhaps 60 feet tall upon which a convential television antenna (and other antennas) can be mounted in a vertical position side by side (with appropriate spacing). The idea is to not have a tower that protrudes above the ridge line. Try to picture a tall split rail fence arranged in a rectangle. Then, upon each post of the fence, mount a pole (antenna).

Obviously such a scheme would work only on a mountain top where Mother Nature has provided the "tower", so to speak.

No, an antenna on its side would not work at all!

Hope this helps.

Bud Rath
Director of Engineering, KRMA-TV

Bud,
Yes that helps. From the description it sounds like there might be some loss due to a slight loss in elevation but not much else...?? I take it Morrison has the elevation to "get over" Lookout to the North?

(Oops you should not be spraying RF on Lookout, (S)CARE might not be able to sleep.....)...

Originally posted by Geof
Bud,
Yes that helps. From the description it sounds like there might be some loss due to elevation but not much else...?? I take it Morrison has the elevation to "get over" Lookout to the North?

(Oops you should not be spraying RF on Lookout, (S)CARE might not be able to sleep.....)...

When we are talking elevations in the 7200 AMSL range, a few feet here and there aren't going to matter. Yes, Morrison is a tad higher than Lookout, but not by much (relatively speaking).

I have stayed away from the post because there is a lot of mis-information flying around and I cannot comment on it or try to correct it without compromising my position or the station's position. I will tell you that there is a lot going on in the background that very few are aware of and I am confident that Denver will have full power OTA digital TV in the forseeable future. That's about all I can say right now.

No one is more frustrated about all that has gone on than me and my poor wife bears the brunt when I vent to her about all the nonsense!

I'll be around (after the long weekend)if anyone has other questions that I can answer.

Bud Rath
Director of Engineerng, KRMA-TV

I will tell you that there is a lot going on in the background that very few are aware of and I am confident that Denver will have full power OTA digital TV in the forseeable future. That's about all I can say right now.

I trust you and find this encouraging.....thanks for the "morale boost"....and have a nice weekend.

Originally posted by Geof


I trust you and find this encouraging.....thanks for the "morale boost"....

Your're welcome, Geof. Stay tuned, it will all be okay.

How many out there watched "Trains of the American West" on KRMA-DT a few weeks ago? Did you enjoy it? That show was shot and cut in 1080i by our production crew.

Bud Rath,
Director of Engineering KRMA-TV

Bud,
I do have another question - When do you think the Morrison proposal will really get going in JeffCo? Are there any projected dates when you think this might reasonably be concluded??

Unfortunately I cannot receive KRMA-DT....sigh...

Originally posted by Geof
Bud,
I do have another question - When do you think the Morrison proposal will really get going in JeffCo? Are there any projected dates when you think this might reasonably be concluded??

Geof, there are some dates being talked about but nothing specific, yet. Rather than speculate, I prefer not to make a comment at this time.

Bud

I saw the Trains of the American West.
It was spectacularly produced HDTV. THANK YOU KRMA!
It is nice to hear from someone who knows what is going on and can communicate a little information now and then!

I pick up KRMA OTA very well with signal strengths of over 80 with just an indoor antenna.

My dream is to watch Monday Night Football in HDTV..... or any Broncos game. Then I would know that Denver is truly in the HDTV loop.

KRMA deserves our praise for being ahead of the curve. (Where should I send the money?? I am not sure if ABC or CBS need our encouragement or complaining... And, as for NBC and FOX.....

Dan L

Hi Bud!

Thanks for taking the time to post here! Say, I was wondering. Would there be any way that you all could talk to the HDnet people? As far as I know they are local here in town, or at least half-way local. It would be one heck of a coup-de-tat to get all of that HDTV content on air OTA.

-John

Bud
Thanks for getting on the forum with your comments. My apologies if I misrepresented KRMA's attitudes on the issues of Mt. Morrison. I will be more careful in the future to make sure I separate my own opinions from what I have heard. I have spoken with or emailed a lot of people from your station lately as I have been involved in the enhanced TV tests you are conducting, so I may have confused other comments from people with other discussions on the tests. It had been some time since I had discussed the Mt. Morrison issue with anyone. The "hairbrained idea" comment was definitely my words (interpreted from a combination of what I had heard and what I know of antennas), not anyone from KRMA, although I did not have the impression the horizontal antenna was still being considered. Thanks for clarifying.

As many of us have mentioned in this forum, it would be MUCH BETTER if someone from the LCG or in this case KRMA would be commenting on applications for us instead of those of us who talk to people trying to pass on information second hand. Since the matters are not involved in court cases, as they were a year or so ago, I do not see why this would be a problem. I am sure the (S)CARE folks have sources within Jeffco which would tell them about anything going with your applications anyway. It does not seem this would be the same as 'leaking' information to (S)CARE.

If you care to comment, I would be curious to better understand the horizontal antenna issue. I understand the two primary reasons for building tall antenna towers is to get the transmit antenna up as high as possible for better coverage, and also to get the highest power flux densities from the antenna source as high as possible and as far away from the ground population as possible. It would seem that the horizontal design would be a problem on both issues. If we assume the coverage from Mt. Morrison (due to its height) is still adequate, can you comment on the power flux density issues? Why would this design be considered safe? We already know that the (S)CARE people have objections with a high towers on Mt. Morrison due to the 'radiation levels' in their homes, since they claim some residential areas would be in the main beam from towers on Mt. Morrison and Lookout? Would the lower tower not have an even more serious problem in their eyes? What would prevent this from being an issue? Is Mt Morrison high enough and far enough away from any population to prevent this from being a problem? If it is a problem, would KRMA be forced to run at a lower transmitter power, or would you be using a 'phased array' approach to reduce the concentration of RF power in any one spot? Has anyone from (S)CARE commented on this proposed design as being acceptable? Your help in our understanding of these issues would be appreciated. Thanks again for your new involvement in the forum.

This was on the front page of yesterday's Boulder Daily Camera. I didn't read the paper until last night so I am just posting it.

http://www.thedailycamera.com/news/county/12atowr.html

So, the JeffCo commissioners may or may not go along with the Zoning board recommendation to deny said application and may or may not make a decison in the week following Dec 10th. Thus, we may or may not know what the hell is going on for awhile longer........sound familiar????

It really wouldn't surprise me if this is or is not approved. I do believe the Commissioners denied the LCG "Supertower" app even though the planning board recommended it.....Anyone think a decison will be rendered before Jan???

Geof
I may or may not have an opinion on that pending the report from my personal advisory committee which I may or may not agree with.



With the FCC relaxing the rules on the DTV transition, I would bet the networks in Denver are jumping for joy. No DTV required until 85% of the market has DTV sets, and no DTV to watch before that penetration is achieved here in Denver since they are not on the air in any form. How quickly do you figure the folks here will be rushing out to buy those HD sets now? Even "if" Eldorado were approved, the networks not only don't WANT to move there, now, they wouldn't even HAVE to move there. Gee, ya think we're gonna see HDTV any time soon?

Even "if" Eldorado were approved, the networks not only don't WANT to move there, now, they wouldn't even HAVE to move there. Gee, ya think we're gonna see HDTV any time soon?No.




Considering the recent FCC decisions and the fact that the ATSC may make recommendations to change 8VSB (to make it more receivable) I am more doubtful than ever that H/DTV will survive as we know it.

Anyone smell the strong odor of Hollywood MPAA moguls encouraging this stalling nationally to buy time get the FCC to incorporate their firewire copy guarded inputs mandated before too many more sets and stb's get sold? Guess we HD viewers just haven't bought enough of the new FCC administration officials. Should we start a collection here?

Maybe we should we start another thread pool on when the LCG will actually even bother to submit another application for a DTV supertower. My guess is they now will have excuses which should last them until spring of 2003, but then I have always been the optimist. KUSA especially must be laughing all the way to the bank, since they haven't even lifted a finger to make the transition. OK, I take that back, they did lift one finger, the middle index one, which they show us every time we ask when they will be on the air. I think that is the same finger KCNC is lifting now to get their low power transmitter on the air too.

Originally posted by dleithaus
I saw the Trains of the American West.
It was spectacularly produced HDTV. THANK YOU KRMA!
It is nice to hear from someone who knows what is going on and can communicate a little information now and then!

I pick up KRMA OTA very well with signal strengths of over 80 with just an indoor antenna.

My dream is to watch Monday Night Football in HDTV..... or any Broncos game. Then I would know that Denver is truly in the HDTV loop.

KRMA deserves our praise for being ahead of the curve. (Where should I send the money?? I am not sure if ABC or CBS need our encouragement or complaining... And, as for NBC and FOX.....

Glad you enjoyed the HD train program. This was our first locally produced HD piece and it turned out pretty well, I think. If you want to help support KRMA, call Eric Hozempa at 303-620-5705. He'd be more than happy to talk with you!

I can't speak for CBS, but I know that they're trying...

Bud

Dan L

Originally posted by JMartinko
Bud
Thanks for getting on the forum with your comments. My apologies if I misrepresented KRMA's attitudes on the issues of Mt. Morrison. I will be more careful in the future to make sure I separate my own opinions from what I have heard. I have spoken with or emailed a lot of people from your station lately as I have been involved in the enhanced TV tests you are conducting, so I may have confused other comments from people with other discussions on the tests. It had been some time since I had discussed the Mt. Morrison issue with anyone. The "hairbrained idea" comment was definitely my words (interpreted from a combination of what I had heard and what I know of antennas), not anyone from KRMA, although I did not have the impression the horizontal antenna was still being considered. Thanks for clarifying.

As many of us have mentioned in this forum, it would be MUCH BETTER if someone from the LCG or in this case KRMA would be commenting on applications for us instead of those of us who talk to people trying to pass on information second hand. Since the matters are not involved in court cases, as they were a year or so ago, I do not see why this would be a problem. I am sure the (S)CARE folks have sources within Jeffco which would tell them about anything going with your applications anyway. It does not seem this would be the same as 'leaking' information to (S)CARE.

If you care to comment, I would be curious to better understand the horizontal antenna issue. I understand the two primary reasons for building tall antenna towers is to get the transmit antenna up as high as possible for better coverage, and also to get the highest power flux densities from the antenna source as high as possible and as far away from the ground population as possible. It would seem that the horizontal design would be a problem on both issues. If we assume the coverage from Mt. Morrison (due to its height) is still adequate, can you comment on the power flux density issues? Why would this design be considered safe? We already know that the (S)CARE people have objections with a high towers on Mt. Morrison due to the 'radiation levels' in their homes, since they claim some residential areas would be in the main beam from towers on Mt. Morrison and Lookout? Would the lower tower not have an even more serious problem in their eyes? What would prevent this from being an issue? Is Mt Morrison high enough and far enough away from any population to prevent this from being a problem? If it is a problem, would KRMA be forced to run at a lower transmitter power, or would you be using a 'phased array' approach to reduce the concentration of RF power in any one spot? Has anyone from (S)CARE commented on this proposed design as being acceptable? Your help in our understanding of these issues would be appreciated. Thanks again for your new involvement in the forum.

John, please see my earlier post for details of the Morrison tower. To recap, we are looking at a conventional antenna design mounted on what amounts to a short tower. Rather than call it a "tower", "antenna support structure" is more accurate. Antennas can be mounted on it side by side, with spacing dictated by frequency (for UHF TV 30 ft spacing is adequate).

RFR levels are within applicable limits according to the study done by our consultant and should not be an issue.

The next time you are at the station please look me up - we can chat in more detail.

Bud Rath
Director of Engineering, KRMA-TV

Bud
Thanks for the reply. I understand that the 'tower' is just a support structure for the radiating elements. I do know the higher the radiating elements (if tuned properly), the lower the PFD on the ground in the immediate area. Glad to hear you have the calculations to show that the levels are safe in the area even when the elements are mounted near the ground. I know those levels will be an issue for any (S)CARE objection. We have just been bombarded so much with the (S)CARE folks claiming that the PFD's are too high in their area, that I am surprised that Jeffco is willing to let the elements be that low. I would guess there are no residences in the near proximity of Mt. Morrison which should help. I am not that familiar with the area proposed for the towers.

I would enjoy chatting some more with you some time. Be careful with those invitations, I just might show up. :D

Just had an afterthought to the FCC decision to allow stations to run at low power. I wonder if this might make it easier for the LCG to get a supertower going on Lookout, since they might be allowed to run all the stations at lower power until a much later date, or perhaps until the power on the analog side can be reduced. Perhaps it would be easier to sell this to Jeffco if they could state the towers do not have to go to full power as soon as was thought. I haven't read the FCC announcement in great detail. Any thoughts from anyone???

I don't think it matters. I don't believe the zoning requirements have an RF power level requirement [limit] (other than meeting limits for health and safety requirements). Further I think (S)CARE would assume stations want to keep them all from sleeping and would radiate them to the max permitted by law.........(said tongue in cheek, but I'd bet that (S)CARE would assume the stations would be operating at their maximun legal power limits for all their transmissions).

Note: I may be wrong but I recall a similar discussion a long time ago (with Al Hislop) and I think he mentioned their is nothing "legalling binding" the stations to some max power level other than the limits imposed by the FCC.

I do remember the discussion with Al Hislop, that is why I raised the question. I know the (S)CARE web page has all its power objections based upon the full power numbers, and I just wondered if their case gets even weaker (I say that since I don't buy their arguement in the first polace) if the power is backed off while both formats are up. I am not sure what levels (other than off) would allow Al and his neighbors to sleep at nights though. The original assumption for the supertower was that the stations had to be at full power by May of 2002. I know the zoning issue still needs Jeffco approval, but maybe the commissioners could get out from under the (S)CARE pressure machine this way. Just thinking out loud here, and wondering if anyone else was thinking the same thing. There must be silver lining in this black cloud somewhere.

I wonder if this might make it easier for the LCG to get a supertower going on Lookout, since they might be allowed to run all the stations at lower power until a much later date, or perhaps until the power on the analog side can be reduced.
Take a look at how the KCNC temporary low power transmitter application went last year.

If I am not mistaken the existing KCNC tower is on land zoned for residential use and the zoning board at that time felt it did not have the power to offer waivers for additional non-compliant uses of residential land except for a very narrow set of circumstances (which a transmitter does not meet).
---
I guess I should get around to updating the HDTV summary I posted on the first page of this topic. Oh wait, nothing has changed yet so it still is accurate.

Has anyone recently tried to subscribe to the CBS HDTV feed from Dish Network? I just got my 6000 system, and called Dish to ask for it and was told I don't qualify for East and West Coast channels. I pointed them to their own site where it talks about the 17 markets from which you can recieve the HDTV CBS feed, and they said that was fine, but I also had to qualify for being in a white area, and would have to get a waiver since I don't live in a white area. I live in Aurora so I'm pretty sure I can only be considered to be in the Denver affliates broadcasting range, which was the requirement on the site.

I also talked to the floor supervisor and was told the exact same thing, and he put in for a waiver from my affliate, but I don't think thats going to happen, whats going on? Does anyone know?

About the only thing to do is keep calling until you find a CSR thats knowledgeable about the CBS-HD feeds in particular. It definitely can be a hassle sometimes

emorahan,

What Dan said, and don't take no/waiver/white-area for an answer. All Denver metro-area residents with DISH qualify for the CBS-HD feed. Period.

I used a quote by Bob Ross of CBS corporate that is somewhere on the board, stating basically what I stated above to get my CBS-HD... but even then it took a few people/conversations at Dish to finally say you are right and you "qualify". (They were all during the same phone call though, like I say, don't take no for an answer)

-John

PS. I think there is like a $1.99/mo charge for it, or for $4.99 you can get all the locals and the HD feed. (It may be $4.99 + 1.99, I don't pay the bills)

PPS. I'm not sure I really qualified for all the locals... but I sure didn't argue when they offered it. My antenna sucks.

emorahan,

Just keep calling back until someone give it to you. It took me about 4-5 calls to different CSR's before i found one that would give me access to it.

Nobody i know in Denver, had to get a waiver for it.
Keep Tryin' and Good Luck!

Hi guys,

The program NOVA "Life's Greatest Miracle" will be fed in HD on Tuesday, 11/20
at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT).

Please see that it is broadcast on KRMA DT Channel 18.

-John

It is mid November and there is still not a signal from KCNC-DT on channel 35.

Will they be on the air by the end of November?

No Broncos in HD on Thankgiving I guess.
THANKS for another year of sitting on your butt CBS--Denver. I do not understand what the continual holdup is on getting a high power HD broadcast off of a downtown building.
God, this is tiresome.

PBS is way ahead of ABC and CBS. NBC is not even in the running, and Fox refuses to even think about HD broadcasting. You have to wonder how this can be.....

dL

PBS is way ahead of ABC and CBS. NBC is not even in the running, and Fox refuses to even think about HD broadcasting. You have to wonder how this can be.....


Greed and lack of vision.

Sorry, I guess I missed this one in Friday's Boulder Daily Camera. There appears to be a question whether one of the existing towers on Eldorado is legal. This would not seem to bode well for the Jeffco Commission vote coming soon.

http://www.thedailycamera.com/news/county/16atowr.html

And the fun continues.......

I wonder if the new Echostar tower has anything to do with the upcoming must carry law that becomes effective (for DBS companies) in Jan???

It will be interesting to see if Jeffco pursues this apparent violation with the same vigor they have pursued the 'zoning violations' on Lookout.

I am sure we can expect to see the folks from (S)CARE, the self appointed defenders of Jeffco zoning laws, coming out at once to oppose this new tower as well. :D

Geof,


And the fun continues.......
I wonder if the new Echostar tower has anything to do with the upcoming must carry law that
becomes effective (for DBS companies) in Jan???

What's the new January 'Must Carry ' law?
Will Dish be required to carry ALL the local Denver stations including the 'Mom & Pop' low power stations?

Thanks!

Sorry for jumping into this late. I have read all of the history.

My really basic question is - wat HD I may expect to get OTA? I live by Saddle Rock Golf Course (three miles east of Parker Rd on Arapahoe Rd?

I hear a certain STB works wonders on turning regular cable signals to 1080i, but I'm trying to assess if getting this STB would allow me to get any HD (without going the DirecTV route)?

Ernie,
As I understand it, the basic answer to your question is yes.

Dish and DirecTv must carry each station for every local market they serve - unless a particular station opts out. This is one of the reasons driving the spot beam satellites (FYI, spot beam satellites will allow DBS companies to reuse transponder frequencies several times over with each spot serving a unique geographic area - ie, one spot may cover the NW states and another the SW states and they could use the same frequencies for both those spots).

JPR - I don't know how all the HD receivers compare (in terms of one being able to receive signals better than another) but there is a thread about the new Zenith model and those folks seem to think it has the best reception. You can use this receiver (and all of the DirecTv HD receivers) standalone - without buying service from DirecTv. The only (current) non-satellite HD receiver I know of is a Samsung jobby... Whichever way you go you'll need a decent antenna because of the situation here in Denver (and oh, you'd need an incredibly large antenna to pick up CBS unless you become a Dish or Canadian DBS subscriber).

JPR,

Did you check out all the HD forum topics for info on this weeks 'hot' new STB's?
I'm sure, you'll find all the latest there on new equipment.

From your location, i would guess you would get HDTV from KRMA and IF and when KCNC (but don't hold your breath) but probably not KMGH and just crappy SD from KDVR. So, you might really want to consider Dish or Directv for HBO,Showtime, HDNet for more.

My suggestion is to pickup a used Dish/STB for now.

FYI, For one, I would be pretty leery right now about buying a new Directv capable STB as with the merger for the two, who knows what hardware is gonna work in the near future. And two, with the implementaton of new copyright protection (firewire jacks) into STB and monitors also not yet decieded, that just throws another wrench into the works.

Good Luck!

THat's NOT the way DBS must carry will work -

In order to be considered for DBS Must Carry, a FULL POWER (excludes Class A and LP stations) must provide (at their expense) a "good quality" signal to the DBS provider's POP. There are other rules on duplication, multistate, Non-commercial (PBS and other NCE).

And the standard for "Good Quality" signal is the same one the cable guys have to use. So, if a station has a good enough OTA signal (read Grade B) to the POP, that can suffice. The DBS provider would have to supply the antenna for this.

And yes, Must Carry is driving the push for spot-beam satellites.

Thanks for the clarification Scooper. I thought the stations needed to provide a signal to the DBS folks but wasn't 100% certain..... As to the low power stations being excluded I agree....

Thanks Geof and Santellavision!

I am buying the Zenith DTV1080. The other threads on this STB led me to conclude that this will help be get a good picture off of my digital cable (so that I can watch sports). Now I'm just trying to determine if I would get an ancillary benefits for having this box (such as the ability to get OTA HD). $800 seem like a lot to pay to compensate for a lousy line-doubler in a $4K Mits 65908, so I'd love to also be able to get some access to HD.

$800 seem like a lot to pay to compensate for a lousy line-doubler in a $4K Mits 65908, so I'd love to also be able to get some access to HD. A DVDO would have been a couple of hundred dollars cheaper but that's a different story.
As mentioned, you'll probably get KRMA (if you work at it). If your situation allows you might also consider subscribing to DirecTv. I think you can get an HBO package for something like $12/mo and with that you'd get HD HBO and HDNet (you'd need to buy a oval dish). As a side benefit you'd also get the APG which should include guide info for your cable stations along with the Denver areas stations....

Have any of my Northern Colorado (or Wyoming) neighbors heard anything about KGWN (Cheyenne) getting on the air? I haven't heard anything in a while.

Is anyone able to give them a call to find out the status and report back here? I am coaching basketball right now and find myself busy until about 6:00 pm.

I'm wondering if I'm ever going to get an opportunity to get CBS OTA or if I should look into getting Dish in addition to my DirecTv.

-Mike

:confused:

Originally posted by mknoebel
Have any of my Northern Colorado (or Wyoming) neighbors heard anything about KGWN (Cheyenne) getting on the air? I haven't heard anything in a while.

Is anyone able to give them a call to find out the status and report back here? I am coaching basketball right now and find myself busy until about 6:00 pm.

I'm wondering if I'm ever going to get an opportunity to get CBS OTA or if I should look into getting Dish in addition to my DirecTv.

-Mike

:confused:

Mike,

I haven't checked with them in a while, and I usually don't get a chance to call during the day either. It might be better for someone who actually has, or would quickly purchase, a DTV receiver capable of OTA reception to follow up with them. ExpressVu still doesn't support the OTA module, and I probably wouldn't buy another STB for just CBS (since I already get it) until some type of time shifting capability is available. (On the other hand, I might consider a HiPix or other computer add-in card if we get OTA sooner...)

I doubt that KGWN will switch on their DTV capability until closer to the May deadline. Maybe they could be encouraged to start part-time operation sooner. I do not know if they are still waiting for any equipment.

In a related matter, a friend who is attempting to get Dish CBS is having a lot of trouble. They initially wanted waivers from Denver and Colorado Springs(!). Eventually, a salesperson from Sears referred him to someone at CBS who straightened them out on that, but they are requiring him to get a waiver from Cheyenne. So far, the engineer at the station who needs to sign the waiver has been out of town. It's probably good news that it is the engineer who needs to sign it, though.

So, it appears that you _might_ need a waiver from Cheyenne--but some people in this area have been able to get Dish CBS without one. Be prepared for a possible battle.

Mark

I checked again today. KCNC-DT on channel 35 still does not have a signal.

Antenna could signal trouble for Pinnacle

Eldorado Mountain tower appears, angers company's opponents

By Owen S. Good, News Staff Writer

BOULDER -- A new 40-foot antenna has been built atop Eldorado Mountain, possibly in violation of the law.
The revelation is unwelcome publicity for a Pinnacle Towers Inc. proposal for three "supertowers" on the mountain. The company's plan was assailed by more than 1,000 people and rejected Nov. 7 by Jefferson County's planning commission.

A homeowner's association opposed to the project learned of the new tower in a routine search of Pinnacle's file at the planning department. Opponents are using it to portray the Sarasota, Fla.-based company as a corporate bully who at best cannot manage its properties, and at worst will flout the law.

Mike Chadwick, the county's zoning enforcement supervisor, said inspectors will visit the site about five miles south of Boulder to determine if the antenna is in compliance. If it isn't, Pinnacle, as the property owner, would face possible court action.

Pinnacle, for its part, blames tenant Carl Schlueter of Lafayette for the tower's construction, and says one of Schlueter's customers erected it without Pinnacle's knowledge or authorization.

Pinnacle attorney Joe Benkert notified the county's planning department of the unapproved construction in an Oct. 29 letter.

Schlueter, a small contractor who holds an 80-year lease on the site, said he's being made a scapegoat by a large company searching for a reason to kick him off. Schlueter had the lease when Pinnacle bought the property in January 2000.

Schlueter owns Boulder Communications and Echostar Inc., which is not Echostar Communications Corp. of Littleton, a much larger company that owns Dish Network.

He said he cleared the project with a Pinnacle site manager.

"Pinnacle doesn't want me there. I'm in their way," Schlueter said.

Schlueter has applied for a permit retroactively, although he is convinced he is within county zoning regulations. Pinnacle thinks otherwise.

"We disagree with his interpretation of the lease, we disagree with his interpretation of county zoning requirements and we disagree with the assertion he had permission," said Pinnacle attorney Joe Benkert of Littleton.

Whoever is at fault, the issue shows Pinnacle's "lack of corporate responsibility," said Eric Johnson of People for Eldorado Mountain, which opposes the supertowers.

Pinnacle is building the towers in the hopes that it would become the sole site for digital broadcasts of television stations in the Denver market. But Pinnacle has no customers yet.




Jeffco commissioners will begin a public hearing on the supertowers at 6 p.m. Dec 10. The hearing is tentatively scheduled to continue from 6 to 10 p.m. Dec. 13 and again from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. Dec. 18.


November 21, 2001 Rocky Mountain News

This is like a freakin' Soap Opera!

So...
Pinnacle owns the land on the mountain. But this guy Carl Schlueter has a 80 year lease on it from Pinnacle. Schluester owns Echostar (Not that Echostar, but the other Echostar - Not that there's anything wrong with that) and yet another company called Boulder Communications.

Then, in turn he rents out space to who-knows-who, sub-tenants. Then, these sub-leased tenants (???) erect a mystery tower for who-knows-what purpose without permission from either 'Ol Carl, the real land owners - Pinnacle, and what-the-hell why stop there... without a permit from the county?

What, they think nobody's gonna' see it? I haven't looked up that way, but i bet they've got an American flag on it to disguise it, so... like maybe nobody'd gonna' make 'em take it down 'cause it's A-m-e-r-i-c-a-n !!!

This is getting really good! I think i made a prediction a while back for 2004, I have to change that to 2006 at the big switch. This is ludicrous!

I have many friends in Broadcasting throughout the country, and they are all looking at us like idiots.

This is like a freakin' Soap Opera!

So...
Pinnacle owns the land on the mountain. But this guy Carl Schlueter has a 80 year lease on it from Pinnacle. Schluester owns Echostar (Not that Echostar, but the other Echostar - Not that there's anything wrong with that) and yet another company called Boulder Communications.

Then, in turn he rents out space to who-knows-who, sub-tenants. Then, these sub-leased tenants (???) erect a mystery tower for who-knows-what purpose without permission from either 'Ol Carl, the real land owners - Pinnacle, and what-the-hell why stop there... without a permit from the county?

What, they think nobody's gonna' see it? I haven't looked up that way, but i bet they've got an American flag on it to disguise it, so... like maybe nobody'd gonna' make 'em take it down 'cause it's A-m-e-r-i-c-a-n !!!

This is getting really good! I think i made a prediction a while back for 2004, I have to change that to 2006 at the big switch. This is ludicrous!

I have many friends in Broadcasting throughout the country, and they are all looking at us like idiots.

Mark and other Norhterners,

I just talked to Keith Yosten, engineer at KGWN in Cheyenne, and he told me that their equipment is still on order. They have a 650 foot tower ready to go, but he said that he wasn't willing to climb up there in the middle of a Wyoming winter ;)

He told me that there were a few markets owned by the same company (27 I believe) and that the larger stations would get their equipment first. He anticipated (or hoped) that by the spring they might be up and running.

As a side note, he sounded as disguested about the Denver tower situation as we are, and he said that in his opinion it would be at least 2 years before they would have anything ready to go.

-Mike

Ernie said,
I have many friends in Broadcasting throughout the country, and they are all looking at us like idiots.Well, not us - as in we here.. :)

Can you spell "C-O-W T-O-W-N"

--

Mike said,
As a side note, he sounded as disguested about the Denver tower situation as we are, and he said that in his opinion it would be at least 2 years before they would have anything ready to go.

Two years would be good....yeah, yeah I know, not good-good, but good as in that would be sooner than I expect...

When all is said and done it will takes upwards of a year to get anything thru JeffCo and another year to build something. Since our stations have not even submitted a revised plan to JeffCo - well we can all add it up......

With absolutely no real news for us on this front, I think it is time to start up with my annual lament that we may never see high power HD without either a legislative change or the chance that we can all be transported into some kind of parallel universe where Denver got the signals first rather than last in the country.

I remember the last couple of years when people would comment that if the Broncos were able to be in HD, then maybe the stations would wake up and be "forced to" comply.

Oops, that doesn't look likely for the foreseeable future either. Maybe those two events will coincide. HD football being broadcast in Denver from our local affiliates and the Broncos having a good enough team to approach the Super Bowl again. 2006? 2008? going....going...
What a crock!

Just an opinion.
Jeff

Fortunately I have more faith in Shanahan than any of the characters involved in HDTV (I am excluding KRMA)...

Sorry to drift off topic, but can anyone recommend someone to spruce up my new Sony KP-57HW40? I recall that someone was trying to organize a trip for Michael TLV - I'd be interested in that. Otherwise, I'm interested to hear who in the Denver area does a good job fine tuning Sony sets.

Thanks!

Weldon,

We just had Michael (TLV) Chen out here about 3 weeks ago. I did have some future interested parties for another one. Send me an email and i'll pass along all their info to you.

Unfortunately, i checked out just about all the local ISF techs and nobody does what he does. In fact, the first ISF guy from Listen-up screwed up my set - Arrrgh!

My Mits HDTV looks spectacular after Michael's adjustments. It looked so good, that i had him do my professional broadcast monitors while he was here too! email me: santella@frii.net

Originally posted by mknoebel
Mark and other Norhterners,

I just talked to Keith Yosten, engineer at KGWN in Cheyenne, and he told me that their equipment is still on order. They have a 650 foot tower ready to go, but he said that he wasn't willing to climb up there in the middle of a Wyoming winter ;)

He told me that there were a few markets owned by the same company (27 I believe) and that the larger stations would get their equipment first. He anticipated (or hoped) that by the spring they might be up and running.

As a side note, he sounded as disguested about the Denver tower situation as we are, and he said that in his opinion it would be at least 2 years before they would have anything ready to go.

-Mike

Thanks, Mike, for checking this.

Optimistically, it looks like maybe KGWN and KRMA will both be on the air next year. KDVR might start passing along Fox SD Widescreen. Not sure about KWGN (Denver), who might also go digital, but unless they get aggressive and do a Rockies game, probably no HD. Everything else is at least 2003. I hope KGWN and others don't opt to go low power now that the FCC seems to allow that.

Mark

Hi guys,

I just got out of a service call with the folks that run channels 38 and 23 UHF Low-power. Channel 23 is on Morrison Mountain along with Channel UHF 59 PAX (which has been bought by NBC now!) and some radio stations. Channel 38 is on the rooftop of a 13 story building in Aurora.

I raised the Antenna problem with the owner, Jene Van De Sand, and he expressed frustration with the entire situation. His Antenna on a tower on Mt. Morrison has been declared illegal and he has been evicted from the site. He is still on the air today from that location only because he has sued and the matter is in court. (Apparently the antenna was zoned for Microwave transmission only, and that's what sCARE/Morrison folks pounced on).

He showed me some coverage maps from a study that he had done (seperate from all the other studies we have seen... I glanced at the name of the person preparing the study, but don't remember it now) where he had analyzed his coverage from Mt. Morrison to what his coverage from Squaw Mt would be. The study concluded that he would lose 15% of his viewership if he had to move there. Basically everything North of Boulder. He would have to double his power output on Squaw Mt. to attain even that amount of coverage.

I asked him about El Dorado Mt and he laughed that off saying that A) he would lose the Highlands Ranch/something else SE area and B) that Pinnacle wanted like $10,000/mo. rent. A figure that as a low-power TV station would be way too much for him to afford.

He isn't even considering Lookout (or El Dorado) at this time. He is very frustrated that the Jeffco Commisioners are bowing to the pressures of a relatively small group of people sCARE, and both the Lookout Mt groups and the Morrison Mt groups are working hand in hand to oppose everything on those two mountains.

He feels that the only way out of the problem is for the residents of JeffCO particularly as well as other propenents of new Antennas/Capacity to put political pressure on the JeffCO commisioners and basically take on sCARE.

I gave him the address to the forum and told him about our little discussions here, and he seemed very interested in coming on-line and reading the thread and maybe contributing to the discussion.

-John

Has anyone seen anything on KCNC Channel 35 yet? My receivers still don't show any siganl. I guess this means they will miss those late September/October/maybe by Thanksgiving dates they gave us. Did anyone think to ask what year when we were told those dates? Maybe they meant 2003 or 2004 or 2005.......?

Now now JM, we all know those "flanges" can be tricky items to get....

JohnJr - I don't think upping the power will even do the trick from Squaw. Ch 12 is on Squaw and my TV doesn't even try to lock (whereas it will lock on Colo Springs stations that are much much further away).

(S)CARE members stand to make a great deal of money if all the towers are moved from Lookout (and Morrison) and stations will have to spend lots of money if new towers are approved.........

We ought to either create all sorts of hell about this (not likely given the number of active posters in this thread) or just go on about our business and forget about it. Personally I'm now in the later category because I don't think there is anything we can do about it and my blood pressure needs a break. I am resigned to the fact that I may actually die before having HDTV in Denver. This whole mess is proof positive that this area is still backwards and I am pretty GD disgusted with the matter. Nobody wants anything in their backyard anymore - even if it was already there when they moved in. If this attitude pervades the whole country how the hell are more Power Plants, Power Lines, Garbage Dumps, etc., ever going to get approved.

No doubt Geof. Like the guy posted in another thread, it's no longer NIMBY, now it's BANANA. Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything. Oh well.

Originally posted by Geof
Now now JM, we all know those "flanges" can be tricky items to get....


lol Geof! It is truly amazing...

-John

I found this article and am posting this for the (S)CARE group. The rest of you can read it too. It seems this study shows that RF energy can CURE cancer too! LCG, get those towers up NOW. This is a matter of life and death for the people on Lookout.

http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?type=1&cat=0200&id=0111271217561284

I was just reading the (s)CARE web-site and noticed something about MY rep Tom Tancredo actually helping them out by proposing legislation to prohibit the FCC from going over the heads of local zoning decisions.

It really tweaked me and I sent him an email (lot of good that will do, but it made me feel better ;)

Anyway, for those of you out there that haven't looked over (s)CARE's sight recently... http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

-John

(Hahaha JM :)

I hope that the SCARE Casino Night Fundraiser at the Crystal Rose is a NONsmoking event and that they turn off all the video poker games. Too much secondhand smoke (Federal Class 1 carcinogen) and video poker (EM radiation at a closer proximity than normal TV watching) can cause serious health problems.

After looking at the website address supplied by JohnJr (sorry to admit I have never looked at it) I am appalled by the overall lack of information, and the statement that they represent 10,000 residents of Lookout Mountain.
So sad. They all need to get a real life.

Dan

Dan, Thanks for the Banana acronym, I hadn't heard that before. I guess (S)CARE is banana's about banana..... I think it might be safe to say the US is slowly turning into a Banana Republic....What we need is a Banana Split...Okay, sorry, I'll stop now.

Hello everyone,

I'm getting ready to take the plunge here tonight or tomorrow by purchasing my first HDTV! My wife finally gave the thumbs up after taking her over to Listen Up over the weekend so she could see a HD picture. (Actually, she gave a really big thumbs up!)

I live at about 2nd and Sheridan, just a touch over 4 miles from channel 7's building and about 4.5 miles from the republic plaza building. As far as I can tell, there aren't any tall structures blocking my line of sight to either building. Also, I'm up in elevation a little bit from both buildings. Calculating the bearings from my location to the 2 buildings, I find that channel 7 is at N 83.8 deg E and republic plaza is at N 64.5 deg E - 19.3 degrees apart! What kind of antenna should I start with to receive the OTA HD signals from downtown? Does Fox broadcast from republic plaza or from their building? Tired antennaweb.com, but they seem to think that our HD signals are coming from Lookout, which of course I know that they're not!

I'm also going to add a 6000 with the 8vsb tuner to my current Dish setup to get HBO, SHO and CBS in HD. I don't have a good line of sight to 61.5 but have a clear view of 148. Has Dish given any of you any trouble getting CBS west as opposed to east?

I can't wait to jump in and join the rest of you in the battle for Denver HD!

Mark

Welcome and congratulations!
From your location, you should be able to point directly at Republic Plaza and get both 17 and 18. Unfortunately, Fox broadcasts full power DTV ( not HDTV ) from Lookout Mtn so you may or may not be able to pick up a reflected signal for Fox without moving your antenna.

I am around 20th and Kipling and I just had to point my antenna slightly East of Republic to get all 3 signals. With it pointed directly at Republic, I couldn't get 32 (Fox ). You may need to play a bit to get all 3 at once without a rotor on your antenna, but by pointing directly at Republic, you should get 17 and 18 and eventually 35 ( Channel 4 ). As cold as it has been, I thought that maybe Hell had frozen over and possibly they would have their signal up by now. But, enjoy what you can already get.

Jeff

I agree with Jeff. And to the extent that you might not be able to get Fox without moving your antenna, if it comes down to that I wouldnt worry about receiving Fox then anyway. While their digital picture is clean of course, it's also hideous the way that they just zoom/crop the 480 signal to make it look widescreen. They ought to just send it as 4:3 and let us manipulate it on our end if we so choose. Not to mention the fact that they cant/wont send out the true 480p widescreen shows in that format from the Fox network.

As far as which antenna, you might try the small Yagi UHF only (looks like an arrow) from Radio Shack. Costs like $20. Of course you could always return it if it wasnt just what you need.

Welcome Mark & your wife!

Some of us did have trouble getting the CSR's at Dish to give us the OK for HD CBS. I'm also situated as i can only see the148 sat. But, that didn't matter to the CSR's. They are just not very educated as who can get it.

What you have to do is keep calling back to different Dish CSR's until you find one that knows what to do. Don't give up, it'll be well worth it.

Good Luck!
-------------------------------
And i'm NOT one of the 10,000 Banana's on Lookout!

Just one (minor) point to clear up. Fox is broadcasting from their Lookout facility but it is not "Full-Power" per-se. Eventually they are licensed to transmit up to 1 MW ERP but at this time they are transmitting something like 1/4 of that. I believe they cannot increase power without causing interference to NTSC channels (their own CH 31 signal?). This is still a pretty strong signal (especially compared to the signals coming from Downtown) but it will ultimately be even stronger....

Well speaking of Fox and thier power output, has anyone else seen anything flakey with their signal strenth over the last week or so? While I'm one of those thats totally peaked for downtown so as to be able to get 18 and 17 (albeit just barely on 17) usually that antenna position would still allow me to get Fox with ok signal strength even though I rarely ever watched it anyway. Lately though I cant hardly pull in Fox at all and I know my antenna hasnt moved ot anything.

Just wondering if by chance they dropped their power output to save costs since the FCC basically gave the green light to do it. And even at that they'd probably still be just as strong as anyone elses in town these days.

Good question on their power.

I have noticed that my Mit's HD STB takes quite a bit longer to tune in their signal lately. Could this be due to PSIP? I could have sworn I had the channel setup for 32.1 but I now notice it being 31.1. When I try to tune to channel 32 it cannot find a signal and locks on (DT) 31.1 - after a while.

I have the same receiver Geof and it's always been 31-1 on mine for whatever reason. In regards to my previous question, I was just checking signal strengths again on both 17 and 32 and I think the answer to my question simply has to do with the weather.

Before it got real cold I'd usually only get 17 at about 37 signal strength..just enough to keep from dropouts. And 32 would be around 65. The last few nights, and even during the day really when it's been cold, 17 has been about 51 signal strength, and I'd had trouble with 32 dropping to almost nothing.

Well just now when I went up to check 17 is back down to 37 and Fox is back where it belongs. But it's also at least a little bit nicer/warmer out today. So that probably explains it.

Again, of the 2 channels.. I'd much rather have 17 at say 44 or higher all the time even if I couldnt get 32 at all. Which shows you what I think of Fox's digital offering.

How long have you guys been seeing this 'problem' with power on 32. I rarely watch it since I CAN"T STAND the cropped picture and they don't transmit the widescreen version, but I do switch through it at times when I am watching KRMA just to see if it has changed. I have not noticed any change here in Boulder but I haven't seen it since Friday or Saturday. Guess I will have to flip it on tonight.

BTW, I checked the (S)CARE web page and they have not yet posted the article I found about RF energy possibly being a CURE for cancer. I was sure they would want to get information that important out to their 10,000 members (Bananas??? now that's a new one!) ASAP since we have all seen their interest in keeping those 10,000 members well informed with the latest published scientific information. They did post a reference to an announced CSU study about the effects of RF radiation. The guy running the web page must be suffering from a lack of sleep. :confused:

I thought they could put a link next to the link on the study they quote about RF causing a lack of sleep (oops, my bad, that one isn't published anywhere so they can't link it). :D

As for the posting on the (S)CARE page about Tom Tancredo sponsoring a bill to stop FCC preemption, I think that is just political pandering on his part. I am quite sure he knows that would never get through Congress (probably just due to lack of interest), but I am also sure he sees it as a great way to gain voters in his district, since there are more than "10,000 (S)CARE members" and only about a dozen of us who have HD sets or want HD (most of us can't vote for or against him anyway). Until we are larger in numbers (based upon recent postings we must be up to about 15 members at the moment) I wouldn't bet a call to him will not get much response. BTW, who are those 5500 or so that have read this thread???? If there are only 10 of us or so posting, that means we have each read this recent thread more than 500 times???? Do you suppose we have some 'lurkers' out there?????????

Well, I was a lurker up until today. No longer! Must have hdtv...

Are the directional antennas necessary because of the low power transmission? Have any of you that live reasonably close to downtown had any success using an omnidirectional antenna?

Mark

Mark, HDTV receivers are susceptible to multipath interference. The best chance we (consumers) have to reduce multipath interference is to use directional antennas (but receiver design is also important). Directional antennas usually have more gain in the main beam than omnidirectional antennas which is also important in this area. So yes, you should get a directional antenna for these reasons.....

Another local lurker here. So, with the HD antennas scattered over the metro area, is it necessary to get a directional antenna with a rotor to receive all the different HD signals? Just curious, because I am considering purchasing an HD STB.
Thanks,

Any chance ABC will broadcast the CU-Texas game in HD?

Well keith as Geof just said, pretty much yeah. Not that one normally would really, it's just that in most places to get 17 (if you can even get it under any circumstance since they're such low power) you have to really key on them. Every specific location requires trial and error. Since 32 is stronger than the others it's more forgiving. For example if it were not for how hard it is to get 17 you could easily split the difference between Lookout and downtown to get 18 and 32 without having to worry too much about exact antenna placement or a rotator.

Course if you're talking pure HD then you only need to point at downtown anyway because 17 and 18 ( ABC and PBS) are the only 2 that have actual HD. Fox 32 from Lookout doesnt do any HD..just digital.

And no chance on the football game weldon.

I have my 9 ft Radio Shaft antenna pointed at downtown Denver from here in Boulder but I get plenty of signal on FOX from Lookout. It probably goes on a case by case basis, but if you need a huge antenna to get KMGH or KRMA, you may still have enough gain in the direction of Lookout. I tried a pair of rabbit ears on my UM OTA receiver and got FOX just fine one time. Their Lookout signal is pretty strong. You porbably won't know for sure till you try.

I'm lurking here -- enjoying HDNet and free(?) HBO-HD on DirecTV for now...considering getting an ExpressVu system to get CBS and ABC HD programming.

I had casually followed HD's progress(?) in Denver and made the leap to HD when I found out HDNet was going to show NHL games.

At work, I have two people who are on the verge of buying HD sets (by on the verge, I mean they'll buy them probably after CBS HD gets on the air, but before NBC or FOX). Now if they tell two people, and those people tell two people -- maybe then we can outnumber sCARE and get a tower built.

I was poking around a bit on sCARE's web site, and I found a letter they wrote way back in early 1999 opposing a supertower on Lookout. Not to give the stations here any more credit than they deserve, but it appears to me that they've been planning to get a tower up there for at least 2 1/2 years now (and then factor in the time it would've taken to get all the stations to agree on one big tower to share).

dr_mal
IMHO, the stations here just didn't do their homework thoroughly on the first application. It is a matter of opinion here on the thread whether that was an accident, incompetence, or on purpose in order to stall and save money. It is safe to say the network affiliates have all saved a considerable amount of money by not getting on the air so far. (S)CARE did not just appear in the last few years, they have been around a long time opposing any construction on Lookout in an effort to reap the windfall profits they could get if the Lookout towers are shut down. As I stated, there have been a lot of opinions here in the threads as to why it has happened. The LCG won't (for the most part) participate in the thread with information anymore. The original claim was that they had a law suit against Jeffco (true at the time) and couldn't, now it 'appears' they just don't want us to know what is going on. The (S)CARE group has participated off and on when it served their purpose and then dropped of when they were confronted with information which contradicted their assertions.

BTW welcome to our little hornets nest. I would sure like some of the other lurkers to introduce themselves and start posting some. We will never get any organized efforts going if we don't know who all is here watching. FWIW for the new members, we do know from several sources and comments that have been made, that members of the some local HDTV dealers, the LCG, (S)CARE, and Jeffco commissioners do read this forum. That is a big reason we need to get people out of hiding. We need to let them know that the public is out here and waiting for HD and we are plenty PO"d. Get a start at making your voices heard by at least posting here in the forum.

I just checked my signal strengths of the local Denver digital channels:

KMGH-DT 17 = 69%
KRMA-DT 18 = 74%
KDVR-DT 32 = 79%

This is on an Echostar 6000 with 8-VSB cartridge.

I use a Channel Master STEALTHtenna and a rotator.

Mike
What is your signal strength on KCNC? Mine is pegged at zero?:mad:

Mike,

I also checked my signal strength for KUSA... Guess what??

Z - I - P - P - O !!!!!!!!

----------------------------------------
Not one of the 10,000 Banana's on Lookout.

Yet another reason to be ticked off at KUSA and everyone else involved. NBC just announced that in cooperation with HDNet, they'll be televising select events (about 8 hours per day) of the Winter Olympics in HD via the NBC digital affiliates and HDNet , albeit on a 1 day tape delay compared to the analog broadcasts.

http://www.tvinsite.com/index.asp?layout=story&doc_id=58595&display=breakingNews

I have been looking at titantv.com. You enter your zipcode and they provide the dates that the stations have applied for.

Local Assigned Actual Activation Date
02 WB KWGN-DT - 34 Feb 1 2002 12:00AM*
04 CBS KCNC-DT - 35 Dec 15 2001 12:00AM
05 CBS KGWN-DT - 30 May 1 2002 12:00AM*
06 PBS KRMA-DT - 18 80-3 ACTIVE
07 ABC KMGH-DT - 17 17-1 ACTIVE
09 NBC KUSA-DT - 16 May 1 2002 12:00AM*
11 CBS KKTV-DT - 10 May 1 2002 12:00AM*
12 PBS KBDI-DT - 38 Jan 1 2003 12:00AM*
14 HSN KTVJ-DT - 15 unknown
20 UPN KTVD-DT - 19 May 1 2002 12:00AM*
25 IND KDEN-DT - 29 unknown
31 FOX KDVR-DT - 32 32-1 ACTIVE
41 DAY KRMT-DT - 40 unknown
50 UNI KCEC-DT - 51 unknown
53 IND KWHD-DT - 46 unknown
59 PAX KPXC-DT - 43 May 1 2002 12:00AM*
FOX KLWY-DT - 28 May 1 2002 12:00AM*
NBC KOAA-DT - 42 May 1 2002 12:00AM*

Hi guys,

I think we have more or less discussed this before, but what would ya'll think about making up a Flyer and distributing it to all the local HDTV outlets over the next month of Christmas shopping?

In this flyer (which once made, we could all print out copies and hit stores close by on a Sunday) we could state the current conditions of HDTV in the Denver market, and what we see as a solution to it. (IE lookout, but maybe not so narrow, just a broad statement of JeffCo and (s)CARE, TV stations perceived lack of interest, etc.)

If we make it educational and not just a statement of our displeasure then I think it can be a tool/knowledge resource for the salesmen etc.

I would figure that over the holiday season that we could maybe give out thousands of flyers getting our opinion across to local "medium" adopters.

I do feel strongly that our only way out of this is to raise public awareness to the level where the JeffCO commisioners finally feel forced to approve SOMETHING on one of their mountains.

I would be willing to work on the Flyer and incorporate as best I can a consensus argument to what we would like to see happen. Matter of fact, just because I feel strongly about this, ya'll can count on my creating something and submitting it here for your review/criticism/suggestions.

-John

Maybe we should start jumping KUSA's case [again] and ask them to get Low Power on the Republic Plaza. I doubt this could be done in time for the Olympics.....but....nothing ventured, nothing gained....

Here's my email:

----
kusa@9news.com

I have read that NBC, in conjunction with HDNet, will be offering some Olympic coverage in High Definition (HD) format. In light of this tremendously exciting development I request KUSA reconsider a temporary solution to the Lookout Mountain Zoning problems and establish a Low Power Transmission setup atop the Republic Plaza similar to KRMA and KCNC.

Please demonstrate that 9News really does care.

Thank you,



----

Common everyone, cut and paste or compose your own. Let's barrage KUSA with email.

Lurkers: This means you too....

JohnJr,
I have no issues with your suggestion but please keep this in mind - So far the LCG has not submitted any sort of application to JeffCo that could be considered complete, much less "bulletproof". JeffCo had some real issues and concerns with the first incomplete application and has not, as of yet, received a 2nd application. It's hard (for me at least) to blame JeffCo for any of this.

We do not know the ultimate status of Eldorado nor of the KRMA Morrison application either.

Unless and until someone submits a complete, and "bulletproof" application to JeffCo I cannot and do not conclude they (JeffCo) are the problem. When (and if) someone does all their homework and submits a complete and comprehensive proposal to Jefferson County is when we'll find out how possible or impossible Lookout will be. Until then the true blame lies at the doorsteps of the LCG....

Geof,

My email to 9news is away... thanks!

I understand that some folks here think the stations are the problem and I tried to address that in my message above. I think I should try and present a balanced... "Here are the players" in the Flyer and let the reader determine what he/she thinks.

-John

An outline might be;

Here's what we have now;
KRMA PBS LP
KMGH ABC ridiculous LP
KDVR FOX Digital but no HD

Here's what we should have;
CBS National HD
ABC National HD
PBS National/Local HD
FOX National 480p 16:9

Where the towers should be;
Lookout

Why we don't have them (the players);
s(CARE)
LCG
JeffCO
AT&T Broadband

Other Resources (DISH/Direct TV);
HBO HD
Showtime HD
HDNet

Something like that.

I sent my email to KUSA...immediately got an autoreply back saying the lady that reads the messages is on vacation until the 3rd...

Mark

I just sent an email to KUSA as well as another to KCNC asking about their status, etc. The KCNC site returned the email saying the server was down, so I will resend again in a little while.

Jeff

I sent my email to KUSA...immediately got an autoreply back saying the lady that reads the messages is on vacation until the 3rd...
I got a similar reply:

I am on vacation until December 3. Pam Smith is looking after things for me
and she will respond to your e-mail as soon as possible. If this is an
issue that needs my attention, I will get back to you on the 3rd.

I hope this doesn't stop anyone from sending an email. It probably doesn't matter who reads the emails, they just need to get them so they "get it"....

Remember the MTV ads in the 80's?

I WANT My MTV!

Your email can be that short if you wish, just send one to them. In fact, all of the stations should get one.
Jeff

Guess, who's gonna be on the air in December!!!!!
KCNC
I just talked to David Lane, he informed me that the Antennae is up, they are having to complete the wiring, and all of the remaining equipment has been shipped. He said that everything is on a schedule to be done by the 21st of December. At that point they will be testing everything. After Christmas they should be on the air. Initially, they are going to pass the national feed. At the end of January or February they should have the server to do time shifting.
Don't shoot the messanger(smile)

Did he specify December 21st of what year? ;)

Gee what's the next holiday after Christmas? I guess I'm a little skeptical. First is was going to be first of September (Labor Day), then end of October (Halloween) then late November (Thanksgiving), now it's Christmas.

They completely missed all of the CBS College football games.

Any bets on Valentines day?

Anyone in the area that could visually check to see if there really is an antenna up there?

Later
Joe

Greg T,
Any info on power level? Any chance I am going to pick this up in Thornton?? If ABC is any indicator, I will be disappointed.
Thanks for passing along the information.

dL

Since I will be out of town most of December ( and that's tomorrow ), I guess I can wait. Would someone who has an "in" with David Lane ask him to post this as an update to our forum? I wouldn't expect him to nail a date for us, but he could officially let the group know that they are nearing completion.

If I remember correctly, hasn't he posted once or twice before?
Jeff

Assuming that KCNC actually does start broadcasting (I know...BIG assumption), how will that affect being able to receive CBS-HD from Dish Network?

My 2nd dish gets here on Tuesday...I guess I better get it installed asap and get CBS turned on. Maybe if I'm already receiving it by the time KCNC goes on air, I'll get to keep it. I suspect that the waiver process will get a whole lot more difficult for us here after they go live.

Mark

In theory getting CBS fromDish shouldn't matter one iota on KCNC's status. First, KCNC is Owned and Operated (O&O) by CBS and CBS has said anyone in one of their O&O markets will qualify for the national Dish Feed - no waiver required. Secondly, the KCNC signal will be low power and broadcast from Downtown. While many folks will be able to receive the digital signals a great many will not (folks in Ft Collins and myself for example). Now, some folks are having trouble with the Dish CSR's because they either don't know what they're doing or because some folks might be in another DMA, or close enough to warrant a waiver from another DMA....(i.e., Cheyenne or Colorado Springs CBS stations).


The KCNC signal will be broadcast from the same place as KRMA and it will be about the same power level as KRMA (perhaps a tad more). So, if you get KRMA rejoice because chances are very good you'll be able to get KCNC (when they finally get on the air).

I'm still kind of surprised you dont get 18 Geof. But I realize you're a few miles farther south than I, and have that ridge. Just out of curiosity what kind of numbers *do* you get on your Mitsu for 18? Mine easily pegs a full blown 100, though of course I'm using that 80" yagi outdoors to give me the best possible shot at the elusive 17.

18 comes in with 3, sometimes 5 on a good day. I don't have the luxury of an outdoor antenna and have it in the attic. Naturally it's pointed towards Lookout but there is some wiggle room that would allow me to rotate it towards Downtown. One of these days I will get up there and try it but the ridge is clearly between my antenna and Downtown....I'm fairly sure I can not squeeze a bigger beast into the attic either.....

Well Dan I played around with my antenna and came up with nothing (as I expected - drats). My previous post is incorrect though because the signal level on Ch 18 is 0. I have a varying signal between 3 to 6 on Ch 17.... Isn't the Ch 17 transmitter a bit West of the Ch 18 antenna? If so then the small signal on 17 and no signal on 18 makes some sense because of ridge terrain.

Curiously, when I rotated the antenna the signal strength on 32 fell off much faster than I expected. Ch 32 was pretty much pegging the signal meter at 100 before I moved it but when I rotated the antenna (maybe 20 to 25 degrees) the signal level fell to 60 or so and the picture had pixelization....

I need Lookout or Morrison. Squaw won't work and Eldorado is iffy.....

Sigh.....

Geof,

I would hope that when (big 'When') they ever get Lookout, Morrison or Squaw, that they will be X-mitting at full allowed power, so pretty much everybody in the area will get it. Also, i would hope that at full power, most obstructions won't cause too much 8VSB multipath problems???

Also, did you think about putting your antenna in your garage? I don't have an attic and i mounted my big mother Yagi from the ceiling. Works ok for now... (a very long 'now')

That number on 18 blows my mind. 5 was bad enough, wow. Especially since 18 is so much stronger than 17 relatively speaking. It seems like I could bout use a coathanger for 18, yet have to look like a military installation to even sniff a watchable signal on 17.

I have used a huge UHF only Channel Master and could only get 24 reading on ch 17.

I replaced it with the Siver Sensor, and I fluctuate between 37 in the daytime and 44 in the evening.

The Silver Sensor is a LOT more easier to navigate in an attic!

I am using a Mitsu SR-HD5 HD STB and live at Morrison and Kipling, with a hill or two between Denver and myself.

18 comes in at 100 and 32 comes in about 50 (who cares anyway).

Well thats pretty interesting G! I always meant to try one of those when everyone was talking about them. Never got around to ordering one though. They seemed reasonably priced. Be fun to try one.

Do you still have the info off hand of who you ordered it from?

I currently only use a stealth antenna and pull in 18 at 98 and 32 at 86...moving to a full size uhf to hopefully pull in 17 to stand a chance of receiving CBS if and when it does appear. Right now I can receive 17 at only about a 20 on my meter.

Keith

Seems strange to me too that 18 is lower than 17....If the channels weren't so close I'd suspect some sort of problem at the Ch 18 frequency but that seems unlikely given that 17 & 18 are right next to one another. I thought of playing with the Silver Sensor but the signal is so low I doubt I'd be successful. I guess it's payback time for the absolutely great NTSC reception I've enjoyed since buying this house.

BTW, my antenna is in the attic over the garage.

Ernie,
I don't think Squaw will work for me (or for the broadcasters) even at full power....Ch 12 is located there and I cannot even begin to receive it. The Squaw site sits further West than Lookout and evidently those pesky mountains block some coverage to the South.

Multipath is caused by the signal reflecting off of obstructions and arriving a little later than the main signal. Upping the power means the main signal has a higher field strength but the reflected signal will also be higher in power (it's akin to hitting a pool ball off the bank - the harder you shoot it the harder it rebounds off the bank). So, if the antenna is picking up a stronger main (non-reflected) signal it will also pick up a stronger reflected signal. However, in some cases it's possible that the reflected signal is stronger than the non-reflected signal and higher power may be beneficial in that instance.

------

FWIW, I received a response from KUSA (likely the same response that everyone else receives). Here it is....

Thank you for your note. We are continuing our efforts to find an HDTV
solution for all of our viewers. As you know, zoning decisions have made
this quite difficult. If not for this problem we would be on the air already
with HDTV. We have investigated low power solutions in the past. This
obviously does not meet the goal of reaching all of our viewers, but we are
looking at all options. Again, thank you for your interest and feedback.

FYI, this was in this morning's Daily Camera. Pinnacel has asked for a delay in the Dec. 10 vote in order to come up with a new plan for Eldorado. It sounds like their application is in trouble.

http://www.thedailycamera.com/news/local/01ltowr.html

Ok, my new Sony is getting delivered on Tuesday, so I'm going to try to get the RS yagi tomorrow and get it up on my roof. If it doesn't work, where can I buy channel master antennas here locally? I talked to Listen Up, but they don't carry the models that seem to be the more popular ones here on the forums.

Mark

It's probably a necessary move on Pinnacles part to make some changes if they want approval. Hard to understand how they expect the Commissioners to review a revised plan without having the Planning folks look it over. It sounds like this will drag on into Spring.

Now might be a good time for the LCG to submit a new plan.

This is the person I ordered my Silver Sensor antenna from. Shoot him an e-mail since he doesn't have a website to order from (atleast he didn't a year ago).

Email: csherman@monmouth.com or Fax to: 732-741-8807

markdl,

I've tried, and nobody here in Denver carries Channel Master. Go Figure? I got mine for Stark Electronics. They had great prices and very cheap shipping.

The 3023 is a great antenna.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmuhf.htm

I appreciate the thread you'all have going here.

Is there anyway to know, short of buying and setting up everything, what OTA HD signals I could pick up?

I live 8 miles east of I25 on Arapahoe Rd.

JPR,

As you probably know, There are NO 'full-power' DTV stations transmitting here in Denver.
Of the 3 currently on-the-air...

KRMA (PBS 18) is low-power broadcasting from atop Republic Plaza in downtown Denver.
KMGH (ABC 17) is ridiculously low-power from atop their own blgd. - also downtown.
KDVR (Fox 32) is almost full-power, but only in standard definition (480i) and Not HDTV,
broadcasting from Mt. Morrison.

You will almost definitely get KRMA and KDVR. If you are slightly elevated and can get a clear line of sight to downtown, you might have a slight chance of locking on KMGH, but i wouldn't count on it.

And, maybe by New Years, we all might get KCNC (CBS 35)
You'd probably get that fine too as it will be from atop Republic Plaza.

I'd get a Sat Dish and enjoy HBO/Showtime/CBS-HD or HBO/HD-Net on Directv.
And if you got the extra bucks, you can get ExpressVU from Canada to get some more HDTV including NBC, ABC and CBS network feeds.
Welcome!
:)

JPR,

I think the only way to tell for sure is to get a STB and try it. I am not that far from you (Buckley & Orchard) and I get PBS and FOX just fine but no ABC.

To even get PBS signal I had to move the antenna up as high as I could get it. It is now in my attic and seems to work o.k. there. I had my previous antenna up in my garage but this didn't work at all. I also had to buy a really big antenna.

I maybe you could borrow someone's STB and give it a try.

Good Luck
Joe

Of course this still does nothing for people up in northern Colorado.

Goddamn Jeffco and (S)CARE and these wishy washy broadcasters (and Fox for that matter for no HDTV at all)!!

Sorry, had to rant.

Dan

Sorry, had to rant.

Don't be sorry, that's all some of us can do...

Even the lucky few who can get the Low Power signals have to spend more time and money than should be necessary.

Ditto to Geof's post.

I live 5 miles (in a direct line) from the KMGH transmitter, but can't get the signal with the 5 different antenna/amp combo's I've tried, mainly because an 8 story apartment building is directly in the way about 3/4 mile away. KRMA/PBS is great, but I think I've seen the local and national feed loops about a million times now, so only the occasional national HD show is worth even watching this channel. FOX - I completely skip over channel 32, the regular feed over cable looks as good as, if not better than their SD digital broadcast.

I'm frankly as upset over the whole HDTV thing as anybody else here, and have unintentionally noticed that I have stopped watching as much TV as I used to, its nice to have the additional time available. I'm renting more DVD's and enjoying my widescreen RPTV purchase in that manner instead, but it sure would be nice to see the national HDTV channels.

Brian,

Where do you live? I'm 4 miles away at about 2nd and Sheridan, and planning on putting my newly purchased RS yagi up tomorrow. I don't know of any buildings taller than 2-3 stories between me and kmgh. Here's hoping!

Mark

Mark,
I live near Hampden and I-25. The building that blocks my signal is on Colorado Boulevard.

Mark,

Good luck with your attempt to get the signal. From where you live, I would guess that you will have some success. 2nd and Sheridan is up the hill from the 6th avenue exit, so I will say you will be able to see pretty well unless someone in your neighborhood has a really tall house in the way as you are probbably 100 to 200 feet higher than their antenna. You are definitely close enough to receive 17 and 18 with a relatively strong signal. Let's hope you have line of sight.

Jeff

I spoke to someone at KCNC Engineering. They have been told that the low power digital signal would be on by the end of the month. I wonder if this is wishful thinking.

Remember we all said that... 'Money Talks' & 'BS/Quality Walks'???

Well, i'm pretty sure i now know why KCNC took this long to get on the air. If they get on the air by Midnight on Dec. 31st. They get to legally (By IRS Rules) write off for the entire year, all the costs involved with HDTV (i.e: all equipment, vendors, training etc.) without having to pay $1. in power costs to run the transmitter!

Flippin' Nice for them, huh?

Well if KCNC is going to be on the air by Christmas, I would expect to see some test signals any day now from the transmitter. Anyone see anything yet? We should start checking daily just so we will know. Should we set up an 'office pool' to pick the date (I guess that would be month, day, and year)?


Originally posted by santellavision
Remember we all said that... 'Money Talks' & 'BS/Quality Walks'???

Well, i'm pretty sure i now know why KCNC took this long to get on the air. If they get on the air by Midnight on Dec. 31st. They get to legally (By IRS Rules) write off for the entire year, all the costs involved with HDTV (i.e: all equipment, vendors, training etc.) without having to pay $1. in power costs to run the transmitter!

Flippin' Nice for them, huh?

Gee santellavision, you sound so cynical. Now me, I know they are just trying to get on the air as soon as possible as a favor to all their loyal viewers requesting HD. I know they are doing their best to get that new tower up on Lookout too, just look at those great plans they submitted to Jeffco. I would bet the tax write off hasn't even crossed their minds.......:rolleyes:

JM,

I bet it has crossed their minds and their accounts minds and their lawyers minds.
They'll get to write-off all those lawyers fees too!

It's going to help their bottom line, but not going to make them move any faster on pursuing Lookout or elsewhere.

Santellavision
If I agreed with you it would have to mean that KCNC is motivated only by greed and not by the public good. But I have seen their advertisements that they run when their FCC license is up for renewal and they clearly say their only motivation is to satisfy and serve the public. Are you saying those adds are merely self serving bs?? I am truly shocked. I had no idea!!!!
(Tongue firmly planted in cheek):D

So, I don't have my antenna up on the roof yet, but I thought I'd try something inside until I can get it put up this weekend. I hooked up a 6' stretch of RG6 cable to the little UHF remote antenna that Dish uses for their rf remotes with a barrel connector, and hooked it over a picture frame next to my new tv. I'm getting around an 80% reading from PBS and about a 60% reading from KMGH! Enough for a signal lock, anyway. Oh, and around 60% from Fox as well, but after watching Fox for a couple of minutes tonight, I now agree with all of you - what the hell are they thinking broadcasting that? I'm thinking that if I get that signal from KMGH inside with a 6" piece of wire, I should be able to get a significantly stronger signal from the roof. All in all, I'm really excited right now!

Mark

Mark,
I'm jealous that you can get KMGH, even though I'm only a little over 5 miles away from their anemic transmitter. We all really shouldn't have to worry about reception, but we are where we are. I guess I have reception envy, even though my antenna is probably bigger than yours :D .

Mark
Congratulations on your apparent success. Keep us informed on how its going.

This means there must be at least 5 people who can now pick up KMGH's signal. Everyone in the forum should call KMGH and congratulate them on this new and significant milestone.:D

I just got off the phone with a worker at KCNC. A truckload of digital equipment for the studio is supposed to arrive today from CBS. They hope to get the equipment installed and start testing the signal in about ten days. The plan is to get on the air by Christmas Eve or by Dec 28th. KCNC also had to give all hospitals, that may be using the frequency for medical monitoring equipment, thirty days notice of possible interference.

This information is from a worker bee, not management, so it may be more accurate.

KCNC to Viewers: "The Flanges are in the mail"...:)

I hope Hot's post turns out to be true even though it will likely do me no good...

I'm sure that this has been asked before, and I've spent the last half hour or so searching...not quite sure what to search for, though. So, here's my question: Scanning the channels last night on my dish 6000, it found 17-1, 17-2, 32-1 (I think), and 80-3. Those are what showed up in the guide. 80-3 is remapped from the national pbs HD feed, right? Does channel 6 broadcast a local feed as well that I didn't pick up? 17-1 was listed as the KMGH HD feed, and 17-2 was listed as a SD feed. Are there other subchannels (i.e. 80-1, 80-2, etc)? Do they change - i.e. will I need to rescan for the channels often? Is subchannels the correct term for the numbers after the dash?

Mark

From: Bud Rath [mailto:Bud_Rath@KRMA.pbs.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 5:08 PM
To: Dave Munn
Subject: Re: HDTV


Dave, we offer two different program feeds on the HD channel. During the day we
feed upconverted programs that were shot and cut in 16x9 SD digital. In the
evening and on weekends, we offer PBS programming - either their HD pass-thru
demo loop or selected prime time HD programs.

The different channel numbers you see are because when we run local program,
our PSIP is transmitted (18-1). When we switch to PBS, we take the feed
directly from satellite and feed it to the transmitter as a 19.4 bitstream that
includes the PBS (bogus) PSIP data (80-3).

Hopefully soon we will be able to drop the PBS PSIP and insert our own on the
pass-thru feeds, thus eliminating that annoying problem.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for watching and for your comments!

Bud Rath
Director, Network Engineering
Rocky Mountain PBS - KRMA, KRMA-DT, KTSC, KRMJ
Denver, Colorado 80204

Bud_Rath@krma.pbs.org

303-620-5625
303-620-9283 FAX

Originally posted by Hot
I just got off the phone with a worker at KCNC. A truckload of digital equipment for the studio is supposed to arrive today from CBS. They hope to get the equipment installed and start testing the signal in about ten days. The plan is to get on the air by Christmas Eve or by Dec 28th. KCNC also had to give all hospitals, that may be using the frequency for medical monitoring equipment, thirty days notice of possible interference.

This information is from a worker bee, not management, so it may be more accurate.

So "the check is in the mail" according to unofficial sources. I hope they are not feeding us another line to get us off their backs again. I have my fingers, toes and eyes crossed, but I won't believe it until I see one of my receivers lock on a test pattern.

I guess this won't be on in time for us to watch the LSU/Tenn game this Sat. to see where the Buffs are going bowling, but if they make the end of the year we should be able to watch all those 'Bronco playoff' games in HD.

Anyone want to take over responsibility for the email distribution list for news & events? I have some things going on in my life right now that do not allow me to keep up with Denver HDTV as much as I should. I had promised to keep everyone up to date with periodic emails, and I am not doing a good job.

If anyone wants to pick this up, it would be OK with me. Just send me an email to denver-dtv@attbi.com. I could email you the current list, which right now has 118 people subscribed. If you use MS Outlook, it is easy to create a distribution list.

Jay

You would think that KCNC would contact someone here to assist with testing and reception. That is the only thing that has me a little concerned.

Jeff

Still nothing on KCNC front as we all know. I will be gone for a week and a half and hope to be able to come back to post after post of folks being able to report at least the testing has begun for them. Happy Holidays and I will return shortly.

Jeff

I had some success getting KRMA-DT over the weekend. I was curious why KMGH showed a 3-6 signal level reading on my Mit's HD STB but KRMA showed 0 so I went shopping for a high gain UHF antenna. Turns out that Radio Shack had one discontinued U-120R left in their dot-com store on Colo. Blvd (and at a great price of $20). This antenna is huge (102" long). I was able to pick up a meager KRMA-DT signal when I positioned the antenna similarly to my attic mounted UHF/VHF antenna. However, when I moved to the other end of the house (the western side) the signal level picked up quite a bit and I was able to watch KRMA-DT. Given the encouraging results I decided to mount the new antenna in the attic and found that the location that worked in the guest bedroom did not work when it was placed in a similar position in the attic (a vertical difference of 8 feet or so). After trying various positions in the attic on the western end of the house I achieved a signal level bouncing between 93-100. I'll pass along some of my findings in the hope it may help others:

-> As others within the HDTV forum have noted, inches may make the difference - I've found that height, east-west positioning, and pointing (and even tilt to some extent) are all critical. Four inches in height meant the difference between a signal level of 93-100 versus 80 a (and a two foot height difference resulted in anything between low 30's to mid 90's); East-West positioning varied the signal from nothing at all to 93-100; and pointing (direction the antenna faces) to within a couple of degrees is required. Fortunately I was able to find a location where the long antenna would clear the attic rafters but still give good results.

-> I tried passing the signal thru my original antenna distribution network. The original VHF/UHF antenna feeds a 4-way splitter (which then feed 4 TV's). One of those outputs goes to my HDTV setup where it then goes thru a 3-way splitter (TV, VCR, HDTV STB). All totaled there is over 12dB of loss because of the two signal splitters (and I am using very good splitters). The KRMA-DT signal was 93 or so without any splitters but fell to 39 or so with the splitters in the line. If your signal level is low get rid of those splitters. Optionally, an amplifier may overcome this loss but there are several things to consider when using an amplifier. First, place the amp near the antenna - before any splitters. Second, if you have a very strong signal in addition to the weak one(s) you're trying to amplify the amplifier may become overloaded and that won't work too well. Also, if you don't have a usable signal without splitters it's dubious as to whether or not an amplifier will help (an amplifier cannot improve the "Carrier to Noise" ratio and will amplify noise as well as introducing it's own noise which could make matters worse). Summing up, I'd only consider using an amplifier to overcome signal losses in the cabling and splitters but then only if there aren't any strong signals that may overload the amp (and use a good amp - they usually have a lower noise figure).

-> Use good cable. I used a low loss Canare RG-6 cable, not some crappy RG-59 stuff. When I played with a section of RG-59 I did notice a decreased signal level on the Mit's signal meter. The extent to which cable loss matters is dependent on signal level and cable length but if you have the option of installing new cable use good low-loss RG-6 and that way you'll know you've got the best stuff for the job.

-> I decided to not use an amplifier at this time and instead I'm using a diplexer to couple my UHF antenna with the DirecTV satellite signal. A diplexer has less loss than a splitter (it takes advantage of the frequency difference between the satellite signal and the UHF signal). The model I am using has about 1.5 dB of loss for both the Satellite feed and the UHF feed (if I had used a splitter as a combiner it would have decreased the signal level more than 3dB). With the diplexer the KRMA-DT signal dropped by 4 points or so on the Mit's signal level meter but it is still in the low 90's (as I noted above, when I feed the signal thru the splitters the signal level fell to 39 but I still got a picture so this setup gives me some margin).

I am not too sure what to expect when KCNC-DT comes on the air. It will be located near the KRMA-DT antenna so I've probably got a good shot at picking it up, but time will tell. I also don't know what losses to expect when I get some snow on the roof. When KCNC-DT starts broadcasting I expect I may have to do some fine tuning.

My current setup isn't the most user friendly - but it works, something I considered not doable until Saturday. The Mit's STB can accept 2 antenna inputs (one being diplexed with the Satellite input) but you can only have one antenna feed selected at any given time. This means I have to get into the Mit's menu to select which antenna I want to use. Needless to say, the UHF antenna does not do a good job with the VHF channels and since it's pointed away from Lookout the UHF channels from Lookout don't come in too well either. Once KCNC-DT is on the air (and IF I can receive it) I'll look into other alternatives, such as trying to combine the two antenna feeds (I'll probably have to filter out the UHF signals from the VHF/UHF antenna) and sending the combined signal from both antennas to the diplexer.

Sorry for the long post. I sympathize with anyone who is struggling with reception. My advice it to get out there, with antenna in hand, and move it around trying different locations and heights to see if there is a "sweet-spot" that works for you. Good luck.

Atta boy Geof, glad to hear it!

I found another odd thing about my Mitsu receiver awhile back. I dont use the RF "out to tv" for any reason on the receiver but presumably by accident one day, I connected my OTA antenna to that connector instead of the one below it where it belongs..and not only does it work that way..but on a channel like 17 which I only get marginally, it actually locks in better! Not saying it would mean anything to someone like you Geof who has prolly no shot at 17 anyway, but I did find it peculiar! So I just leave my OTA feed connected to it now instead of the "in from antenna"
connector.

Oh, and speaking of 17, how did the new antenna affect those SS numbers, if at all?

Does anybody know why the "Grand Alliance"
picked this 8VSB transmission standard?

Didn't they test it for years? I mean, this is insane! I've gone through what Geof did too. Hours and hours of first trying different type antennas. Then moving them from room to room and with just inches making a huge difference in strength. Argh!
What the heck are we going to do if (SOMEDAY) the different stations decide to put up towers in different directions. Eldorado with 2 or 3 and say a new tower way out in Parker with some more???

It's like TV broadcasting started by being wireless in the 50's, then wired with Cable in the 70's, then wireless with Satellite in the 80's, then back to wired with Digital Cable in the 90's then guess what, wireless again with DTV and were still using the same damn antenna from day one... What's up with that!

That is strange Dan. I do use the out jack though...it feeds my Bedroom TV (and coupled with the RF remote I have DirecTv in the bedroom without paying for a 2nd receiver). It actually looks decent on the Sony 27" TV in the Bedroom. One thing I noticed about the Mit's modulated output is that it's better than the Sony which it replaced...

No shot at 17. Curiously I still have a signal hovering aroud 6.

I can see where the CH 18 "Spirit of Colorado" shows would get old after awhile but those shots of Italy are fantastic....

Ernie, Higher power will probably help the problem and if they can get new receiver chips that are more tolerant of multipath then maybe this won't be as big an issue...

Well in fairness to the "standard" Ernie, I think around here it has alot to do with everything being well short of full power. If they were full power we'd probably be without alot (not all) of these antenna issues.

Yeah Geof, the Spirit shows do get a little old..and they're not true HD either. Thats why it was so nice of KRMA to start showing the National loop on nights and weekends. Not to say that demo doesnt get old too after awhile, but the nice thing about the National feed is that they rebroadcast the HD specials many times, whereas before KRMA would flip the switch to the feed when an HD special would show the first time, but that was about it. No subsequent showings usually. These days they've been showing the Jessye Norman XMAS music show quite a bit. Maybe you saw some of it. If not, while the content isnt for everyone, some of it has about as good as a "looking through a window" effect as you'll see.

As for 17, yeah, no surprise there with where you're at. But when it gets stupidly cold again one night you might check the SS again just for fun..because at least for me, the SS sky rockets when that happens..for whatver reason. From a "usual" 37 (at night) to as high as 58 sometimes.

Just for the sake of "research" I mean. I doubt you'd still get anywhere near the 30-37 you'd need to even begin to process the signal.

Geof,

Your post should give some folks some hope for the KCNC and KRMA reception. If you can get it from Waterton/Roxborough area, and in your attic to boot, a lot of the Southern area of town should be able to find, albeit with a lot of effort.

Even though I am fairly close to downtown, I found two years ago that an attic antenna was extremely tricky to dial in for both 17 and 18 at current power levels. Only by placing on the roof was my antenna able to easily receive both signals reliably with basically no dropouts for several months. So, my advice to anyone is that if an antenna placement on the roof is doable, then definitely go for it until we get a high powered solution. Oh yeah, that probably won't happen, so go for the roof if you can.

Jeff :)

Jeff,
Good point about rooftop versus attic - there are signal loses because the signal has to penetrate the roof. I probably lucked out in this regard because I have a shake roof (I think asphalt is more lossey - hmm, never thought I'd be grateful for having a shake roof). Another plus is if you can mount it on the roof you won't have to put up with the insulation, which is no fun (especially the blown-in stuff which I have). I'm still itching...but it was worth it.

Geof
Congratulations. Glad to hear you were finally able to pull something in. Being well on the fringes here on the north end of Boulder, I can really appreciate the amount of effort you had to go through to be able to get a signal. I have never been able to get my signal strong enough to send it through even one 3 dB splitter, so I know what work you have done. It sounds like your setup is now permanent, and even indoors, which means no tweaking the antenna back into place when the wind blows. I have not had any luck inside my attic (although to be fair, I have aluminum siding on the house which blocks a portion of the view from that location. I would bet you will be successful in getting KCNC if they ever get on the air. Of course that is a WHOLE different story. Has anyone seen any test signals yet?

As for the question on the 8VSB standards. We are dealing with low power transmitters located at a much less than optimum location. Many of us are affected by the Qwest building and other obstructions which block a lot of the signal to our homes. A better judge of the standard would be to judge your ability to receive KDVR (even though they do not transmit any HD or widescreen), which as I understand is about 50% of max power at this time, but at least is located on Lookout. As we all know, that is probably the best location for transmitters to cover the metro area. I am easily able to get that signal at my home on the north end of Boulder with a pair of rabbit ears, and the best news is that, unlike analog with its double imaging from multipath problems on Channel 31, the digital image is sharp and clear.

Good point on judging 8VSB using KDVR, not KRMA (or KMGH). As much as I played with the setup yesterday I can say I saw no KCNC-DT signal (and yes, I did look several times). Hey, but those flanges are in the mail, err, on the Pony Express Pony..:)

Wind is definitely something to contend with in Roxborough. It blows like crazy here (almost every morning). The weird thing is "just down the road" at the Martin plant it is usually calm...I'd probably have to have a rotor because the antenna would require constant tweaking. I'm still somewhat amazed I'm able to get Ch 18...I know when I get home I'll tune in to see if it still works...

An update on my installation:

If you'll recall, I was getting about 80% on 18, and 55%-60% on 17 and 32 with just the little stub uhf antenna from the dish receivers. Yesterday, I put up the RS uhf only yagi on my roof, ran the cable down and hooked it up to my 6000. All told, about 100' of RG6 cable running through a ground block at the half way point. The signal was about 60% steady on 17, about 82% on 18, and real variable on 32 (0%-50% or so, not a good lock all the time). Those were the best numbers I could get tweaking the rotation and tilt. I didn't have time to tweak vertically. We watched Alias last night in HD on 17 - minor pixellating from time to time, but other than that completely awesome! So, today I picked up the double bow tie antenna from RS that everyone's been talking about in other threads just to see what would happen in my basement. After moving it around some, with the double bowtie, I'm getting 75% on 17, and 95% on 18. If I swing it around 180 degrees, I get about 85% on 32, but 17 drops to the mid 60's and 18 drops to the mid 70's. For a little thing that looks like it's straight out of the 50's, this antenna rocks! Assuming snow doesn't fly this weekend, the yagi is coming down and going back in the box. I only paid $20 for it, so I'll probably keep it, but I'm definitely a believer in this double bow tie antenna! My basement is 8 feet below ground. I still have a hard time believing that it's working this well.

I sure am glad that I live where I live. I really feel for you guys that live out on the fringes. You can definitely count on my support for letter-writing, meeting attending, and the like to get a high power solution for us here Denver.

Mark

Mark, It's amazing how sometimes the simple solution is the best solution.

Even with all the barriers the local situation has thrown our way HDTV continues to expand. Can you imagine what will happen when they finally get around to doing this right? I just do not understand why the broadcasters do not see HDTDV as a way to grow back market share.....

I just heard a blurb on channel 7 during a break from GMA about Pinnacle. How they've changed their proposal to only 1 tower, no heliport and smaller outbuildings. Due to the complaints, etc etc.

Funny though, that the anchor didnt mention anything about what the tower was even proposed to be used for anyway! Gee, I wonder why? ;)

There's a story on the new proposal in the Today's (Tuesday) Rocky Mountain News Page 19A. I think they're pulling at straws just to stay alive. Here's the highlights...

- Reduce the Number of Towers to One
- 'Camouflage' the Structure
- No Heliport
- 1/2 Size the Diesel Fuel Tank
- Reduce the Building Sizes

So, now that Pinnacle has changed their proposal the county commissioners voted to return Pinnacle's request back to the planning board to start the proposal process over again.

Here is the article in the Boulder Camera.

http://www.thedailycamera.com/news/county/11ltow.html

I have never thought the Pinnacle proposal stood much of a chance, and it now sure seems that way. Meanwhile back on Lookout the new plan for the LCG group is still MIA.

I suppose we can all try to be optimistic and hope that the reason there is not a plan out there yet is that the LCG is finally doing its homework properly.

In the meantime we will just have to watch the local networks at low power. At least 5 people are able to watch KMGH, so they have a LOT more viewers than the others. So far no apparent plans to increase power or viewers (hey, they ARE on the air according to the FCC).

How about KUSA, Colorado's Leader?? So far, zero viewers, no apparent interest or concern.

Has anyone seen KCNC DTV signals yet????? So far, zero viewers, but a ton of promises.

Here is a link (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_904455,00.html) to the RMN article.

It sounds like this application should go back to the planning commission. You can bet that Pinnacle is going to fight to get this approved. I think they spent something like $10M on the property and there is no way the current setup is worth that kind of money unless they can get new business up there. So, if the process starts over in February I wonder how many other changes they will propose before the planning commission starts reviewing it?

It sure would be nice if the LCG could get an application for Lookout submitted before the planning commission reviews the revised Pinnacle plan. But, then again, I really think the LCG needs to dot all their "I's" and cross all the "T's" before they submit their revised plan. I really want to see what JeffCo does when an application that meets all of the requirements of the TLUP (Telecommunications Land Use Plan) is submitted...that is when the rubber will meet the road.

I continue to believe that KUSA is snubbing us and have no plans for Low Power. Their response to my email (which I posted) is not encouraging. They haven't had a lot of pressure (nor a significant reason) to implement Low Power but getting caught without the ability to broadcast the HD Olympic coverage may change that. Looking at this from the other side (for a moment) perhaps they choose not to do low power because they know something we don't - like maybe a revised Lookout plan is in the "final stages" (yeah right).

What I really find frustrating is that the LCG thinks of this as a poker game where they don't want to show their hand. I don't know if the secrecy buys them anything as far as (S)CARE is concerned but it does keep us in the dark which prevents us from knowing the facts and making rational arguments to the FCC....

How hard would it be for someone to step up to the plate and lay down the general game plan. They can keep the details to themselves if it gives them an advantage but they could at least outline their general plan and timetable....

Well, as I am one of the 5 that now can watch KMGH-DT :), I watched Dharma & Greg and NYPD Blue tonight on 17. Picture was decent, but not in the same league as some of the CBS offerings (CSI in particular). Converted 720p to 1080i I guess, in addition to filming methods...still far superior to SD, though.

I do have a question about the way KMGH sends the broadcast. Every time the picture format changed (i.e. cutting from show in 720p to commercial in 480p stretched, going to commercial in 480p not stretched, going to 480i, going back to show in 720p, etc.) there was an audible pop sound that came from my tv. I don't hear this watching CBS off of Dish. Is this normal for an OTA broadcast? Is there something wrong with my tv? Who would I ask at KMGH about this?

Oh, BTW, no test signal out of KCNC on 35 yet.

Thanks,
Mark

You can call KMGH engineering. I don't remember the name offhand and I am not at home or at work to check.Sorry!
By the way, I also watched last night and didn't hear any pops when they were changing resolution.

Jeff

Mark,
Are you using a DD5.1 decoder? (You say the pop came from the TV so maybe not). If you are, is it possible that the sound format is changing from DD to DPL between the various cuts and maybe your receiver is not behaving as well as it could? You could test this by setting the sound output from the HD STB to PCM only to see if it stops the pop....

Yeah, I cant see how or why it would be coming from the tv itself. It's not really changing formats. The receiver is responsible for that, and in any case is always sending a 1080i signal to the set (or is supposed to be).

As Geof said, it would seem to make more sense coming from your a/v receiver if anything. If you do call engineering, mention your concern for their lack of 5.1 sound that the Network is feeding, but they dont send along on the HD broadcasts as well. If "all 5" of us complain about it maybe they'll do something! ;)

Mark
While you are on the phone with KMGH, mention that a little more signal power (from either Lookout or temporarily from the Republic Building) might 'help' others to have the privilege of experiencing this same problem. You can mention there are 'more than 5' of us who would be glad to see the feed as well.

I don't have my receiver set up yet - my new audio racks should be here tomorrow. I have the sound coming out of the 6000 with the standard rca cables feeding directly into the tv. I'll let you know if I hear the same thing once I get the receiver hooked up.

Oh, and I didn't mean that the 6000 was sending different resolutions to my tv - it always sends 1080i. I was talking about when KMGH does the switching for the various format resolutions of the commercials.

Mark

Oh ok Mark, I follow now. The audible pops you're talking about were coming from the tv *speakers* not from somewhere inside the chasis itself. Prolly just their switching with commercials from the National feeds, and the local inserts.

Yeah, the pops were definitely coming from the tv speakers. Sorry 'bout that...but back to my original question, why would switching between the commercials cause an audible pop sound? I don't hear anything popping when watching KCBS off of Dish. I haven't yet watched KMGH enough to determine whether it happens on every HD show, or if last night was a fluke.

Mark

The other day, I left a message for Roger Ogden, head of KUSA in Denver. I asked about HDTV Olympic coverage and if there would be a low power transmitter.

I received a call back from Engineering. I was told there probably would not be a low power transmitter in time for the Olympics. I was also told that KUSA had discussed low power digital and was not really for it. There would not be a lot of viewers. They said they are working with Lake Cedar Group on the new tower proposal for Lookout Mountain. They did not have any word on when the proposal would be submitted to Jefferson County.

In essence, I do not expect to see NBC HDTV in Denver OTA until the new tower is approved and then built. Probably sometime in 2003 or 2004.

I asked if KUSA would grant a waiver for HDTV if NBC HDTV was carried on DISH network. I was told that was not the decision for Engineering to make. Since NBC is not on satellite, I have not asked Roger Ogden about waivers.

I was told that some HDTV Olympic coverage would be on HDNet which does not help me since I have DISH Network not DirectTV.

This is not good news. Luckily NBC has the worst HDTV coverage so we are only missing The Tonight Show with Jay Leno and Crossing Jordan which I miss due to MNF.

Maybe next May when Colorado Springs goes digital, we might be able to get their NBC HDTV signal. Time will tell.

Hot, do you still have Evu? I notice now they're carrying some of HDNets programming. Like the NHL HD and NLL. I bet they'll work out a deal for that HD Olympic stuff too.

DP1
I don't know how the contracts read, but the CBC carries the Olympics and likely has exclusive coverage in Canada. I don't know if EVu could get around that, although I assume they don't black out the non-HD US NBC stations during that time. The fact that the HD coverage will be delayed a day may help get around that issue. In all the previous Olympics the CBC was in analog on C-Band, now it is only available in digital on Star Choice and EVu over most of Canada. I suspect they are plowing new ground here.

Bell EVu is also involved in a major court case in Canada which is before their 'Supreme Court' this month. In that case, Bell is trying to put grey market subscribers (in this case, people in Canada using US addresses to subscribe to Direct TV and Dish) out of business. It will be interesting to see how the results of that case could also influence whether EVu tries to show US programming.

Thanks Hot for the update!

If 'Ol Charlie Boy gets NBC-HD on Dish, we should all remember (and quote back to KUSA) these prolific words...

I was also told that KUSA had discussed low power digital and was not really for it.

"There would not be a lot of viewers."

When we all need to go ask KUSA for a waiver to get access to NBC-HD on Dish, we just need to remind them that we're just those few, lonely viewers, why not give it to us, you don't care about us anyway!

JMartinko -- no, they don't black out the normal non-HD US networks during the Olympics. The CBC's coverage typically has less "feel-good" stories and more sports, and Canadians watching the games would rather watch events with Canadians competing, and events where Canadians have a chance of winning. It was nice, though, to have a choice between CBC and whatever American network had the games every Olympiad, though.

I wouldn't put it past the CRTC (Canadian equivalent of the FCC and Canadian Culture police) to try and block the (evil American) HDNet coverage on EVu, though.

I could go on, but it doesn't have much to do with HDTV in Denver, so I won't :)

Originally posted by DP1
Hot, do you still have Evu? I notice now they're carrying some of HDNets programming. Like the NHL HD and NLL. I bet they'll work out a deal for that HD Olympic stuff too.

Yes, I still have Bell ExpressVu. I watched a lot of the last Olympics from Sydney on CBC when it was on C-Band. I will check my ExpressVu for CBC and HDNet coverage. Thanks for the info on HDNet and ExpressVu.

dr_mal
Thanks for the insight on the blackouts of the networks. I have watched the CBC coverage of the Olympics for about 10 years or so (especially winter) on C-Band since they do a lot more live sports and a lot less fluff. On C-Band, blackouts were not an issue since they did not carry American networks except on MPEG2 formats not available for general consumers. I do not have a clue how EVu or Star Choice will handle US network coverage.

I much prefer the Canadian telecasts, especially for hockey. One of the biggest reasons I got Star Choice last spring was that the CBC went digital on C-Band. I need my Hockey Night in Canada and my Don Cherry fix each week. I have been watching him for too long. I also much prefer the Canadian Olympic Coverage. In the Olympics from Japan the CBC televised all of the games live (2 in the morning which was tough as I lived on the east coast at the time), and it was much better for the big games than in the US where they covered the game on tape the next night. Their broadcasters tend to be more knowledgable about winter sports in general, and especially hockey. I am not too hyped to watch tape delayed stuff, even in HD, but I will have my sources (no thanks to KUSA) if I decide to watch it. At the moment, I am not as thrilled about the HDNet coverage as some because of the delay reason.

Speaking of getting NBC onto Dish, I tried to call in a question about how that process is proceeding to last Monday's Charlie Chat. I got through three tiers of people before they said that there was nothing to report on that front and that the current focus is getting all the locals up. I seriously doubt that we'll see NBC-HD on Dish anytime soon.

On another note, I was getting that same popping noise out of the tv speakers last night watching CBS-HD off of Dish. Every time the picture mode changed, or I changed the picture mode through the 6000, there was an audible pop out of the speakers, so I suspect that it's the 6000 making the noise. Hopefully I'll get my receiver hooked back up this weekend, and then I'll see if the sound is passed through the receiver or not.

Mark

Based upon the "assumption" that KCNC is really going to try to get on the air in the 'near future', I would think they might try firing up some test patterns during working hours. I tried scanning for anything this weekend, and to no surprise, I did not find a signal. If anyone is home during the 8-5 thing this week, it might be a good time to check for any signal to see if they are testing.

Of course this "assumes" they really plan to be on the air this year. As someone suggested earlier, if KCNC was really interested they might be posting their schedule here in the thread in order to get some feedback.

This is sort of off-topic, but DirecTV is adding several Denver channels to their local lineup. December 27th, DTV subs should be able to get....


WB KWGN 2
CBS KCNC 4
PBS KRMA 6
ABC KMGH 7
NBC KUSA 9
PBS KBDI 12
Ind KTVJ 14
UPN KTVD 20
Ind KDEN 25
Fox KDVR 31
Uni KCEC 50
Ind KWHD 53

I finally got my receiver hooked up yesterday, and watching Alias last night heard none of the popping noises that I was talking about last week.

I'm assuming that KMGH doesn't pass the DD 5.1 audio in their broadcast? The audio seemed way out of sync last night as well. I'm going to try to call KMGH here this afternoon to ask them about that.

Mark

Originally posted by markdl
The audio seemed way out of sync last night as well.

Which HD receiver are you using? I've heard a lot of reports of lip-synch problems with the Sony HD-100.

Hey Weldon

This is great news! Where did you get this info? Did it have the DTV channel numbers that would be assigned to it?

I assume that this is part of the must carry.

KCNC better get on the ball, only two more weeks before they said it would be up this time. Maybe they just expect to flip the switch and have it work.

Thanks
Joe

Originally posted by joej
Hey Weldon

This is great news! Where did you get this info? Did it have the DTV channel numbers that would be assigned to it?

I assume that this is part of the must carry.

The info is on the DirecTV web site at the locals page (http://www.directv.com/howtoget/howtogetpages/0,1076,224,00.html) .
You can find all the channel numbers there as well.
This is directly related to the launch of DirecTV 4S (the new spot beam bird at 101) which allows DirecTV to meet must carry requirements.

Weldon,

I'm using a Dish 6000 receiver with the 8vsb tuner module. Watching KMGH over the last couple of weeks, this was the first time I've seen an audio sync problem. I left a message for Owen Smith in the engineering department at KMGH asking him about it. We'll see if I get a call back.

Mark

I am also using a 6000 and 8-VSB Module to get KMGH-DT. Periodically I have also had lip sync problems with the audio.

I can tune to 17 with both my Dish 6000 and my Mitsubishi HD receiver. While they both show signs of lip synch periodically, I'd say it definitely shows up worse on the 6000 for whatever reason.

KMGH? HD? Never seen it.

I also tried my luck with KCNC HD tonight. Still nothing from my scan. Did anyone see any testing going on during the day today? They are going to have to hurry to be on by the end of the year (their words, not mine).

Nah, nothing on 35 yet jm. I'm usually home during the day and check it every day. Not a peep.

I think someone here had a name and an number of the Chief Engineer at KCNC.

If you can, give 'em a call and find out when the testing begins (snicker, snicker)

My guess is still Dec 31st to make the IRS "In-Use" deadline.

My money's with your theory Ernie...I think that is the main reason we'll see KCNC-DT this year (if in fact we do see it).

Hi,

Looking for some fellow Highlands Ranch area HDTV owners. I live in the Broadway/Highlands Ranch Parkway area.

Can anyone tell me if they have been successful in pulling some HD signals to their home from this area with an OTA antenna?

Thanks a lot!

I was reading the Rocky Mountain News today and noticed a small item in the Regional Briefing section (pg. 7A):

"Land-value compensation allowed

"Property owners who lose part of the value of their property to government regulation may seek compensation, the Colorado Supreme Court ruled Monday.
[snip]
"The decision came in a case brought by Animas Valley Sand and Gravel, Inc., which bought land near Durango 30 years ago to mine sand, gravel and other minerals. The county later adopted a land-use plan banning the activities on most of the propery."

Now, I don't know any details of this case and I may be completely wrong about the situation on Lookout Mountain but...

Didn't KCNC buy the land on Lookout Mountain before the county zoned the land for agricultural use? Could KCNC seek compensation for loss in value of this land? At the very least this could be a big bargaining chip in the next round of tower proposals.

Michael

I believe the chief engineer at KCNC is David Lane, I do not have the number handy and have to run.

I live over by Holly and County Line.
I have a SIR-T150 receiver.
I can receive 17-1 KMGH-HD (Shows 6 bars on Sig. Meter) Other STB's show (1-100)
17-2 KMGH-SD (shows 6 bars)
32-1 KDVR-SD (shows 6 bars)
18-1 (80-3) KRMA-HD (shows 7 bars)

I have a RS UHF antenna (attic) pointing toward Coors Field.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F002%5F002%5F008%5F001&product%5Fid=15-2162

I have a regular antenna (attic) pointing toward Lookout mountain.

Still looking for channel 35 (KCNC - 4)

I just got a call back from Owen Smith at KMGH. He said that the audio sync problem with Alias on Sunday night was a problem on their end and that they are working to correct it. He's a relative new hire that KMGH brought in to help out on the HD side. I asked him if and when they are planning on broadcasting the 5.1 audio. He said that was one of the projects he is actively working on, and will be able to give a more definitive answer in 2 or 3 weeks as to when that will happen. And he did say that it will happen. I asked him about increasing the power of their transmission. He said that they are planning on increasing the power by the end of the year. He also said that they are very seriously looking at moving their tower to the top of Republic plaza, and would have more information about that next month. And finally I asked him why they stretch all of the upconverted SD material that they simulcast, rather than broadcasting it in 4:3. He didn't have an answer but said that he'd ask the question and get back to me.

Maybe good news on the KMGH front coming.

Mark

Wow Mark, he was a positive fellow indeed, wasnt he? As far as the stretched material, yeah they do that on 17-1 but you do also see 17-2 right? Which is a digital 4:3 feed.

Good info Mark. Thanks.

Gee, if KMGH moves to the Republic Plaza that's good news...and maybe bad news. It might be a sign they expect the Lookout situation to drag on longer than any of us wanna think about.

Kudos to Mr Smith for at least discussing the subjects - lets hope he doesn't get his hands tied by the budget.

I asked the KDVR Chief Engineer the same question about stretching their upconverted NTSC signal to 14x9 on KDVR-DT. It had to do with their internal Plasma displays and not wanting to burn them in with a 4x3 w/sidebars image. There wasn't a strong concensus on this forum for having them switch to broadcasting 4x3 with black side bars (some folks favored 14x9). Unfortunately even though it's technically feasible to broadcast both formats they don't have the necessary equipment to do this. If I understood Dan correctly though it sounds like KMGH is broadcasting both formats so that's a nice plus...

Gee, if they really do move to the Republic Plaza their HD viewership will dramatically jump from the current "5" viewers...

Dan -

Yeah, I get 17-2...just forgot about it when I was talking to him.

Mark

Anyone see any test signals from KCNC yet? None found at my place last night on my reciever. Seems like they are running out of time, unless they are planning on working Christmas day too.

No test signals here last night either - and I looked 3 times from 6:30 to 11:00.

Mark

I just checked at 10:45 AM MT and still no signal on channel 35.

I keep checking the high-def guides to see when (if) any information is being listed. It seems that the programming guides would have some info prior to the signal coming on. I think I will check the programming for Jan. 1........

Just received this email from KCNC's David Layne...

Technical crews are now working around the clock to get KCNC-DT, Channel 35, on the air on by December 31. The transmitter and antenna are complete and
have been tested. We are still waiting on a few pieces of critical equipment for network passthrough at the studio end of our operation. Our vendors have promised that all deliveries will be completed by this Friday. Testing is scheduled to begin on Wednesday the 26th and programming is scheduled to
start on the evening of December 31. There is still much to do but we're very optimistic that we can still meet this deadline. I know the wait has been long - thank you for your patience.

Dave Layne
Director - Operations and Engineering
KCNC-TV

Well, we still have 12 days 'til (some of us) will get our Christmas present.
Wanna' start the song...

On the 1st day of Christmas...
One Passthrough Switcher...
Two Fiber-Optic Lines...
blah, blah, blah...
F-i-v-e... G-o-l-d-e-n... F-l-a-n-g-e-s

Happy Holidays All!!!

Thanks for the info Ernie....you're IRS theory is apparently right on....

Got any theories on the other stations?

Originally posted by santellavision
Just received this email from KCNC's David Layne...



Well, we still have 12 days 'til (some of us) will get our Christmas present.
Wanna' start the song...

On the 1st day of Christmas...
One Passthrough Switcher...
Two Fiber Optical Lines...
blah, blah, blah...
F-i-v-e... G-o-l-d-e-n... F-l-a-n-g-e-s

Happy Holidays All!!!

I received the same information from David Layne. I still have not seen a signal on channel 35.

Happy Holidays.

Originally posted by Geof
Thanks for the info Ernie....you're IRS theory is apparently right on....

Got any theories on the other stations?

Still no signal on 35 at 11:07.

My own theory is that KCNC is waiting to go on the air until I am out of town in order to get even for all my critical posts. I plan be in Az. for the CU game that week, so no doubt they will be on the air on the 31'st. If my theory holds, they will have a massive equipment failure or a broken flange later in the week, just before I get home, and be down for another six months. If they are still on the air when I get back I think all of the people who complain about taxes should apologize, as that instead would seem to confirm Ernie's IRS theory. I don't know about others, but tax refunds also buy most of my electronic toys. Everyone sing out, "Taxes really are a good thing???????" :D

As for my theory on the other stations, (KMGH and KUSA), it is a very involved and complicated theory. I believe they just don't give a ****. That is, at least until they start losing viewers to out of town stations. KCNC will eventually start losing more viewers to Dish CBS, so they are suddenly in a hurry to get on the air. No competition yet for ABC and NBC. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

Originally quoted by JMartinko
As for my theory on the other stations, (KMGH and KUSA), it is a very involved and complicated theory. I believe they just don't give a ****. That is, at least until they start losing viewers to out of town stations. KCNC will eventually start losing more viewers to Dish CBS, so they are suddenly in a hurry to get on the air. No competition yet for ABC and NBC.

I think he's right on the money with the competition issue. My next prediction is that with CO Springs and Cheyenne coming on-line with a signal this Spring, KUSA will start a rumour anytime now of a Republic 'Low-Power' X-mitter. Then do the same thing as KCNC and wait until Next Dec. to get the IRS write-off without spending one $ on powering the X-mitter 'til then.

Originally posted by santellavision


My next prediction is that with CO Springs and Cheyenne coming on-line with a signal this Spring, KUSA will start a rumour anytime now of a Republic 'Low-Power' X-mitter. Then do the same thing as KCNC and wait until Next Dec. to get the IRS write-off without spending one $ on powering the X-mitter 'til then.

Actually, I think that KUSA rumor is already floating around. I have heard it from several sources. It seemed to surface right around the time NBC annonced with HDNet that they would be doing some HD Olympic telecasts. Imagine that! I suspect KUSA will spread that rumor in the hopes of slowing down the rush of subscribers to HDNet.

The only thing worse than our being so cynical about this stuff is the fact that we are not just imagining this. This total lack of concern for HD viewers in the Denver area is really true. At least we have KRMA around to let us know some things are really possible if you want to do them bad enough. They also prove that the others not on the air have no real excuses, other than they simply don't want to be bothered. I agree that when Cheyenne and C. Springs come on line you are likely to hear a lot more stories in Denver about the "efforts" to get on the air by KUSA etc.

another heads-up!

Jessye Norman- A Holiday Homecoming will be fed in HD on Sunday, 12/23 at 10:00am (MT) and again at 19:00 (MT).

River of Iron: Dreams of the Grand Canyon Railroad will be fed in HD at 20:30 (MT).

The frequency is on DT2A (RX-IF=1379).

Jessye Norman- A Holiday Homecoming will be fed in HD on Tuesday, 12/25 at 9:00am (MT), 12:30pm (MT), and at 18:00 (MT).

The frequency is on DT2A (RX-IF=1379).

Please see that they are broadcast on KRMA DT 18.

-John

Still no test signals of any kind on KCNC 35 on my receivers this weekend. I guess it will be a real busy week at KCNC if they are really going to get on the air by next weekend.

BTW, Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays to all the thread contributors and also all of the lurkers who read this thread regularly.

jm,

Don't forget, tonight...
Santa's bringing the Digital Router and the Flange. We'll all see on the 26th.

;)

As a former lurker turned contributor in this thread, I'd also like to wish everyone very happy holidays, and here's hoping to see color bars on 35 Wednesday!

I recently took the plunge into OTA HDTV and have been fortunate enough to have everything go fairly well. I get all of the current Denver HDTV channels without any video or audio dropouts. (I am not sure of my signal strength because I have a Panasonic STB).

Of course, I have been a lurker in this Denver Tower forum for what seems like a long time and I knew what is was going to take in order to have it go well.

Thank you all for your help, the pictures are spectacular and I am looking forward to the CBS offering.

Doug