A BIG THANKS to all the folks who spoke at the meetings. Glad the commissioners saw thru all the BS and voted for progress. This was a big win for everyone in the Denver area. Now let's move on and get this tower built!
:D :D :D

This blows -- I had to leave at 5:02 to get the kids from daycare -- when I called Ernie upon arriving home (DSL was out :(), he told me they voted at "like, right after 5, maybe 5:05" hehe

This is fantastic news. Even for those of us who are brain damaged :D

BTW, surfing the LCG member stations' websites, KMGH is the only station to have this news on their front page. It's also at the Jefferson County homepage. Neither CARE nor LCG have updated their websites, although I'm sure we'll see a SCARE lawsuit by the end of the week :rolleyes: Hopefully they won't have the funds for an injunctive lawsuit and this tower won't get delayed.

IIRC, LCG was estimating time from approval to on the air to be approximately a year. Looks like we'll have a good race between the Morrison and Lookout towers on our hands.

Everybody wins. This is just too great.

Originally posted by RonAuger
dr_mal, Ernie, Mark,
Don't any of you guys have a laptop with a wireless NIC so you can post reports as the show unfolds? Maybe we can suggest another tower built on Lookout so the Taj can have wireless internet access :)

My Pocket PC has built in WiFi, but sadly, I couldn't find a WAP at the Taj (at least not one that reaches into the hearing room -- must be all that radiation from the towers) :)

KUSA just did a big piece on the towers and HDTV. They actually did a decent job. Probably because the guy speaking was from Listen Up and was more educated than their reporters. I was surprised the amount of time they spent on it (5 min). Usually, it would have gotten a mention and that's all.

Just a few words from me tonight, as it's late I have to actually go to work tomorrow morning. Just got back from the celebration party the LCG guys invited me to.

First, GC - that article was the funniest thing that I've read in a long time! I must be brain damaged for putting myself through this process over the last few months, and actually taking time off of work to sit in day long sessions listening to tower hearings! :D

A very funny anecdote about after the vote tonight before I talk a little about the proceedings today. Pat Brus, the cheif engineer at KCNC (the job that David Layne used to do before he got promoted) got a page on his phone about 5:30 from his engineering staff that said something to the effect of "What the hell?!? We have to find out about the approval from the AVS Forums before you call to tell us???" We had a good laugh about that. Way to go Wasabi for getting the results posted in good time.

Today was quite the day. More speakers than I thought would show up. There were probably about 40 or so that spoke today. Phil and Jason, both of you were called early on - it's too bad you weren't able to be here today. Of course, most were against the proposal. In my opinion, the worst display today was the final speaker. The speaker was an 8 or 9 year old girl in her brownie girl scouts uniform trying desparately to reach the microphone at the podium reading the statement her mom had written for her to read. Her mom was standing beside her the entire time and the statement consisted of how scared she was to go to school and play with her friends because of the radiation. Frankly, it was apalling to see a child used that way.

The commissioners' reactions were interesting today. I wonder if they know that they have such obvious "tells" whether or not they are listening to the speakers or tuning them out. It was really obvious to me that if a speaker didn't get their attention with something new in the first 10 or 15 seconds of their testimony, they were tuned out.

All of the public testimony was done except for 2 speakers and 7 video tapes by 12:30. The videos were great. Fred and Scott got some great testimony on video from the head of the Denver Urban League and from one of the ladies in the governor's office talking about how lots of people rely on free, OTA television and can't afford cable or satellite. And the final speaker was the state senator for the area speaking in favor of the tower.

After that, LCG spent about 45 minutes giving their rebuttal and then Staff spent about 45 minutes giving their closing arguments. The LCG rebuttal was fabulous! Marv Rockford completely shot down Squaw and Morrison as potential sites. And Fred pulled an ace from his sleeve with 2 quotes from the 1999 hearings from Al Hislop basically saying that FM was the only problem on Lookout, and if the new tower only had digital television stations, the world would be a pefect place. Staff recommended denial still because of alternate sites. I don't know what Susan Wood's problem was - I suspect she was getting pressure from her boss in the zoning department and couldn't recommend approval even if she wanted to.

The commissioners asked LCG and staff questions for about 15 minutes, and then called for executive council where they go off with the county attourney to discuss the case privately. This was about 4:15 or so. They returned at 4:55, asked 2 questions worded like "When we approve this application..." and "After the tower is approved..." The 2 final questions had to do with imposing daily fines on LCG if the old towers weren't removed in the year that they have to be after the new tower is operational, and how the interference remediation plan will practically work.

Then, at about 5:10, Commissioner Holloway moved for approval, Commissioner Lawrence seconded and the vote was called. Commissioner Holloway voted YES, Commissioner Lawrence immediately voted YES, and the Commissioner Sheehan spoke for about 3 minutes complimenting the applicant on a job well done and how he couldn't find anything in this application that he couldn't support. He also then voted YES.

And that was that.

It's been a long road for a lot of you out there. Personally, I want to offer my thanks to David, Ron, Ernie, Dennis, Lee, Phil and Jason for coming out and testifying (or trying to :)) and supporting me in this effort by being there. If I missed anyone, I apologize! Also, I want to thank John and Geof for carrying this effort for so long before I joined the crew. Without the efforts of you guys early on, this wouldn't have happened today the way it did.

Pete and Fred also send along their heartfelt thanks to everyone who has supported the process.

That's it for tonight...I'll post more tomorrow after a little bit of sleep.

Excerpted from the Denver Post Tower article (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~1527177,00.html):
"Neihaus said construction could begin next spring after the tower is licensed by the Federal Communications Commission and receives a certificate of occupancy from the county.

He said construction would take up to a year. However, Neihaus said he expects that CARE will file a legal challenge, as it did in April after the commissioners approved a broadcast-tower rezoning for Mount Morrison above Red Rocks Amphitheatre."

As many of us have predicted, it looks like 2005 before we'll receive any signals from Lookout. The key players can (and should) bask in the victory pool for awhile but the fact is KMGH will be unreceivable for most all of us until then and KCNC may become unreceivable when and if KWGN gets on the air. This will make for a very long 1.5+ years.

First off, I would like to offer my congratulations to the Lake Cedar Group and also to Pete & the Grinnell Group. What happened yesterday is the result of a well thought out plan which complied with the established Jefferson County Telecommunications Plan. The LCGII app also had very reasonable provisions such as enforced RF compliance and removal of the illegal Doppler radar.

Also, I would like to thank in particular Mark, David, Ernie, and Ron for leading the Denver AVS forum group support of the application in face of internal dissension over the actions of a certain station.

This will make for a very long 1.5+ years.

Yes, we will have these upcoming discussions. Will it be 1.5 years, or 2.5 years (2006) like 9News is reporting this morning, or 3.5 years? As you know, a lot of factors will go into this including the most major one (IMHO) which will be flange lead time.

It is a good day for the Denver AVS group HDTV enthusiasts.

Don

I suspect that sCARE will file their suit today against the decision, but that it won't last long because they don't have the funds available to put up for the suit. I don't think that they will be able to hold this up.

So, as an engineer, the best case scenerio that I can see is complete and final plans for the tower, building and site done by the end of this year (and that's moving very fast - lots of overtime to get it done by then). Permitting done by the end of January. Construction begins around the end of February. If there are no weather delays, the tower could be operational by the end of next summer. More likely, it'll be operational around October or so.

I think it's time for pool. I'll keep track.

When will the tower first transmit, even in a test mode (closest without going over), :

I have 11/03/2004
My wife has 12/31/2004 (She "let" me go to all these hearings and listened to me vent afterwards, so she gets to join the pool)

Now I just need to figure out what the winner will get.

This is fabulous!!! I have been putting off HD equipment for a while. Now it is time to get my but in gear. I heard the decison on NPR this morning and couldn't believe it! I had all but given up on the tower. Now if Dish could just get their act together and get their superdish up and running, all would be well.


9/23/04:D That would be one heck of a birthday present

Ron, I'm at 11/1/04. :)

Put me down for 4/01/05

No good guesses from me - I'll just say by 12/25/04 (it would be a great Christmas gift).First off, I would like to offer my congratulations to the Lake Cedar Group and also to Pete & the Grinnell Group. What happened yesterday is the result of a well thought out plan which complied with the established Jefferson County Telecommunications Plan. The LCGII app also had very reasonable provisions such as enforced RF compliance and removal of the illegal Doppler radar.I agree. I've maintained all along that LCG2 was far better than LCG1. I think we all were of the opinion that LCG2 appeared to be a winner from the day we were introduced to it (when was that - March of '02?) - I'm glad the Commissioners agreed.


Still though I think this must be a dream - did this really happen?? With a 3-0 vote???

BTW, I am fairly certain that any SCARE lawsuit would not be able to try and reverse the 3-0 ruling. What the lawsuit would seek to do is to try to get the ruling dismissed because the Commissioners were negligent and/or did not follow County rules. I suspect one reason the Commissioners met with the County Attorney was to assure themselves that they followed the process and that they were clear to vote and render a decision at that time.

I'll take my birthday next year: 7/29/04. Hoping for an early on the air date and a great birthday present :)

Originally posted by Geof
BTW, I am fairly certain that any SCARE lawsuit would not be able to try and reverse the 3-0 ruling. What the lawsuit would seek to do is to try to get the ruling dismissed because the Commissioners were negligent and/or did not follow County rules. I suspect one reason the Commissioners met with the County Attorney was to assure themselves that they followed the process and that they were clear to vote and render a decision at that time.

My thoughts exactly. They wanted to make this as difficult as possible to be challenged. The commissioners want this done and over with. They know that the situation on the mountain will be improved with the new tower regardless of what the scared NOPEs think, and that the sooner it's done, the sooner the Lookout residents will benefit.

For lack of a better guess I will take my birthday, 7/22/05, just in time to work out the kinks before the fall (2005) season. Yes, I know that is two years from now, and the KMGH lawyer wrote me that they should be on the air shortly (perhaps even in time for MNF this fall), but these things just never happen as fast as they are supposed to, especially when you know you can count on the local opposition to do everything they possibly can do to stop the construction, and the stations (shall we mention names) always seem to be missing a flange or a data recorder for time shifting, a switch box to insert local commercials or a lip synch box or some darn thing. And don't forget folks, they haven't had any time to really prepare for this either (only about 8 years by my accounting), so you really can't expect them to be prepared for this.

Even so, for some reason I just don't feel "(S)CARED" about the outcome anymore. In fact I don't even "CARE" about Deb Carney and her brainwashed (or is that RF washed) masses. Frankly, I think they got a far better outcome than they deserved.

Whoop Diddly Do!
:D

So, no OTA Denver HDTV for Fort Collins for a few more years. Spectacular... The Colorado technology wheels grind ever slowly onward.

F--k you very much (S)CARE!!! :mad:

Any ideas on an antenna that would possibly work for Cheyenne HD and then be able to turn it around for the Denver stations (when the LCG2 tower is at full power)? Did LCG2 state what range their supertower would have once fully operational so I can buy accordingly?

Thanks!

Dan

10/17/04 (Wife's Birthday! ;) )

Dan, folks down in Denver are able to get the Cheyenne CBS stations (UHF channel 30), so you should be able to point a good rooftop UHF antenna toward Cheyenne and get their stations. Once the LCG tower is built, point your antenna toward Lookout.

One of the points they kept making as to why Squaw wouldn't work was that they need to match as closely as possible their analog coverage. If you can get analog stations from Lookout, you should be able to get the digital stations.

Spending the day yesterday at the hearings provided a good example of our representative government at work. Everybody gets their say even if the truthful "facts" presented were frequently made up! In the end, the right conclusion was reached.

As to the reaction after the vote, it was really anti-climatic. The LCG folks asked that we not "celebrate" a positive decision. And the sCARE people just huddled together with Carney taking notes and then they left the building. I was worried I would need the Sherrif to escort me out, but when I left after some hand-shaking, all the sCARE people were gone! I really think they are devastated with the 3-0 vote.

It was interesting to see the process after the final questions were discussed. Sheehan hemmed and hawed saying things like "Well, what should we do now?" and "Where do we go from here?" as he looked back and forth at the other two commissioners. He finally said, "Well, I guess we need a motion of some sort." (It seemed pretty obvious after the final questions and discussion on contractual terms that the vote was going to be positive.) After a long pause, Holloway finally said she would make the motion and did so making some supporting comments. Lawrence voted yes without a lot of comment.

In Sheehan's closing positive remarks, he made one comment that the radiation would be 85% less and that was a good thing. There was a quick loud response from the sCARE people saying, "What?!!" The reason for Sheehan's comment was that he and the other commissioners were totally confused about the radiation numbers based on the way Jim Hart (the county expert) answered their questions. In my opinion, Hart may know his stuff, but he is totally inept at explaining things in terms that a normal person would understand. The 85% number comes from a site that Hart did calculations on and it reflects the fact that at that site the radiation would be 85% BELOW the FCC mandated maximum radiation levels allowed. (Even though Sheehan said so, the radiation will not be reduced 85% from the current level.) The site referenced with 85% below maximum allowed was the one with the most radiation and all other sites would be less than that. Anyway, Sheehan interpreted Hart's explanations in a positive way even though he got it wrong. In fact, LCG stated in their rebuttal that radiation would go up but only a little and Hart agreed overall with that even though the radiation numbers presented by both sides were different. You can see how confusing this can get!

In the LCG rebuttal, they presented a few interesting radiation facts. With the new tower in place, the radiation at the Aurora Wheeling Elementary school would be 0.05% MPE of the max allowed radiation. And at the Sheldon Elementary School below Lookout, it would also be 0.05% MPE. At Aurora Central HS, the radiation would be 0.06% MPE and at Golden HS, it would only be 0.01% MPE. The radiation at the School of Mines is now 0.21% MPE and would be 0.20% MPE when the new tower is up. All of these numbers are tiny and would clearly not be an issue whether they went up or down. It was also pointed out that the LCG stations would represent only 5% of the total RF radiation from Lookout. Most of the radiation comes from FM radio stations.

I don't know what issues would be used in a sCARE lawsuit to stop the process. The health issues were not a factor since the radiation is well below the FCC standards. The alternate sites were clearly shown to be inadequate despite the Jeffco staff's insistence that further analysis could be done to find ways to make them work. And after hours and hours of testimony, everybody was heard.

The Denver Post article this morning also quoted Sheehan's incorrect remark. They also got the information wrong about when construction would start. The comment about the FCC licensing and the Certificate of Occupancy were in regard to the time when the old towers can begin to be removed.

So, great news! I will go with the LCG original estimates of 18 months to get the construction done and pick a date of 2/1/05. In the meantime, maybe KMGH can find a cheap way to put their coat hanger on a higher telephone pole or up their power from 1.9 kw to the 11 kw that KCNC and KUSA have. Naw, even that would probably bankrupt them!

Zip-a-dee-doo-dah!

I'll go with the ever-popular birthday guess: 1/11/05.

It will be an interesting year or so anyway. Congrats to LCG!

Greg

I'm able to get Cheyenne here in Golden (8000') with a Channelmaster 3023 UHF 80" Yagi. I've had excellent results with the CM 3021 too. But, why not go with the CM4228 for the max strength. Bigger is almost always better! ;)

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmuhf.htm

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
........ In the meantime, maybe KMGH can find a cheap way to put their coat hanger on a higher telephone pole or up their power from 1.9 kw to the 11 kw that KCNC and KUSA have. Naw, even that would probably bankrupt them!

Dennis
Thanks for the great review of things yesterday. As for our buddies at (S)CARE, I just have this feeling we (unfortunately) haven't heard the last from them. I wonder if they will resort to CD tactics to slow things up if they can't get a court to stop construction. I worry about that since they obviously pumped up so many people with the fear of the radiation. (Girl Scouts at the hearing that are afraid to go to school.....????). I wouldn't be surprised at anything, no matter how low, from them.

Also, I agree with you with the hope that KMGH will do something with their coat hanger antenna. KCNC and even KUSA were able to increase their coverage with a higher location and more power. Here is hoping that Cindy and the crew at KMGH are able to 'up theirs'.
:rolleyes:

FYI from the Rocky.
Rocky Mountain News (http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_2129328,00.html)

I promised I'd stop predicting, but this is not predicting it's just scheduling. Let's see: injunctive lawsuit dismissed 4/18/04, permit issued 5/12/04, site prep 1 month, tower delivery lead time 4 months overshadowed by flange lead time 8 months, actual construction 8 months + 1 month testing, my guess is:

12 November 2005

Don

Originally posted by JMartinko
Here is hoping that Cindy and the crew at KMGH are able to 'up theirs'.
:rolleyes: Boy do I want to comment but in my best Austin Powers imitation, oh behaave, I'll refrain. I will say they can take their antenna down for all I care because I will not be watching until their management changes.

Now then, I will be unhappy if KWGN swamps out KCNC.

Congratulations and thank you to all forum members who worked so hard on the LCGII proposal. It sounds to me like you made a significant contribution to the approval process. Ernie's reception map was mentioned by Marv Rockford during his testimony and other members who testified came across as informed and reasonable. It is always refreshing to see well thought out responses to legitimate questions prevail over misinformation and hyberbole.

Ironically for me, the tower approval came on the same day that I finally found someone to install a rooftop antenna so that I can receive OTA signals. From the guesses above, it looks like I will get plenty of time to use the antenna! Put me down for 12/15/04. Thanks again guys.

I think they will fast track the construction. My twin daughters birthday (guess) is 8-12-04. :)

It is always refreshing to see well thought out responses to legitimate questions prevail over misinformation and hyberbole.That's funny! (S)Care's BS made the Iraqi PR guy look like Walter Cronkite!

Originally posted by santellavision
That's funny! (S)Care's BS made the Iraqi PR guy look like Walter Cronkite! After reading her quotes regardling yesterdays decision I am beginning to think she actually believes all the crap she spews. Fuuny what the mind can do to convince oneself......What I don't understand is that if she really does believe that stuff why not move.

Now how many times do i have to repeat myself...

It's not (and never has) been about RF, but purely about raising property values if there were NO towers. :)

Originally posted by santellavision
Now how many times do i have to repeat myself...

It's not (and never has) been about RF, but purely about raising property values if there were NO towers. :) But like I said I am beginning to think she actually believes it's about RF.

On the bright side, wasn't it Al Hislop who had the business of providing RF shields for the windows and walls of all the houses up there. His business (I can't recall for sure, he may have only been recommending someone) will be booming the next few years. Mostly I feel sorry for the parents and the kids who were influenced by Deb's and Al's alarmist tactics. I suspect that at least some of the kids, if not the adults too, will be really afraid when this thing comes on line. Fortunately for them that is likely several years away.

As for those of us who don't live near Lookout, now we can see all our property values going 'up' as the people leaving Lookout 'in terror' will be looking to buy homes in our neighborhoods. Maybe we should start Denver thread about Lookout property values? We could post a real estate listing each time one of them puts their house up for sale at half price in order to get away from the cancer. That way if anyone here wanted to help them out and buy the house we could actually perform a public service for the 'scare' folks. What do you all think???

BTW, it seems like I have started a pretty good birthday theme to the predictions. I guess that may be an indication that none of us really have a clue as to when the LCG can get on line.

Actually in thinking about it, there is some serious irony here. By the time they get on line it may already be time to replace my Mitsubishi TV with a new set. I have already had it 3.5 years, and by the time they are on the air, it may be nearly 6 years old and in need of replacement. Wouldn't that be interesting if the gear we bought to watch local OTA HD is already in need of replacement by the time the locals actually get on the air. Oh well, at least we know that KMGH hasn't waisted any of their own money....just mine. Of course, maybe KMGH will make us all happy and 'up theirs' before the new tower is finished.

Fantastic. Congratulations to LCG and thanks to everyone here who contributed to getting this through. As this has not been said earlier, I think that term-limits may have played a role here too. I was never much a fan of them before but now I think they're great. :D

I'll go with 12/14/04; maybe we'll get a Christmas Present next year.

With people just finding out seems like someone should get a billboard or sign on the way to lookout with something like
"Home Buyers Beware: www.c-a-r-e.org ".

This is something the CARE group should back if they are concerned about health, and not about property values.

------

I can't believe it actually passed. :D Woo Hoo.

I will go with 4/15/2005.

John,

There was someone who testified that they received a flyer from a Realtor who was scaring people to sell your home now before the tower goes up or you may never be able to sell it. (Or something close to that, can't remember the exact testimony)

Commissioner Sheehan asked them to show him the flyer... Oh, we don't have it - Yeah right - Busted! He should have charged them with Contempt for making that up!

Originally posted by JMartinko
By the time they get on line it may already be time to replace my Mitsubishi TV with a new set. I have already had it 3.5 years, and by the time they are on the air, it may be nearly 6 years old and in need of replacement. By the time they get on air I may be leaving the state (or maybe not but it wouldn't surprise me).

Ernie - I like your April Fool's '05 date......

Having sat through hours of Jeffco testimony, it is clear that KMGH is getting a free ride on this deal. So, mostly out of disgust for them, I wrote another letter to Powell of the FCC, copying Ms. Velasquez about their ongoing lack of a reasonable digital signal. If nothing else, McGraw-Hill will get some additional legal bills! If nobody formally complains about KMGH, I would think they will just let the years pass, caring little about the citizens of Denver.

Here is my letter:

July 23, 2003

Federal Communications Commission
ATTN: Chairman Powell
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554

Subject: KMGH-DT Denver, CO Inadequate Digital Operations under STA

Dear Chairman Powell:

In February, I wrote you a letter (copy enclosed) requesting your help in getting KMGH-TV in Denver to improve their digital transmissions until their full power facility is built. While I never received a response from you or your staff, an attorney with Holland & Knight, LLP for KMGH did respond to me (copy attached).

Yesterday, after literally years of delay, the Jefferson County Commissioners voted to approve a new transmission tower on Lookout Mountain, west of Denver. This tower will be used by KMGH plus KCNC, KUSA and KTVD. This is good news. Nevertheless, the estimated time to complete construction is still 18 months away. And, this assumes that legal blocking by a citizen’s group (C.A.R.E.) will not be successful in causing further delays.

The response from the KMGH attorney states that the cost to improve their digital transmissions would be from $350,000 to $450,000. He also stated that the current STA operation does cover the Denver Metro area. I am empathetic to any additional costs for KMGH, but I believe they could do something to improve their current signal without such a large expenditure. Further, very few people in Denver can actually receive their current digital signal! I can barely get it with a large antenna and a close line of sight view.

Their current STA with a 1.9 kw transmitter atop their 5 story building is just not adequate and it does NOT begin to serve the needs of the Denver community. In fact, nobody north of Downtown Denver can get anything from KMGH because the transmission is blocked by taller buildings.

So, one more time, could you look into this matter and work with KMGH to find some reasonable way to improve their signal for the next 1.5+ years until the tower on Lookout Mountain is operational?

Thank you in advance for ANY effort to improve this unacceptable KMGH digital situation.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXXX

cc: Mr. David Fiske, FCC Media Relations
Ms. Cindy Velasquez, General Manager, KMGH-TV, Denver, Colorado

I'll join the letter writing party - if there is a party. How many here are interested in writing KMGH letters again?

Another letter writing campaign to the FCC??????

Me! Oooh oooh! Me! Me! Me too!

BTW, I agree totally with HDJello. I think a major reason this passed is that the commissioners are term limited and don't have to run for re-election again. I remember when I read that comment the other day in a post that none of them were up for re-election that the odds went up a bunch for our side.

Pester another government agency!? -- I'm up for that! My FCC letter Re:KMGH will go out this week.

Hey, we need something to do for the next 18 months...I'm up for another letter :)

So far the count is 5 .....

I also sent a message earlier to Cindy on the KMGH website feedback page with the same general comment and question (copied message to Programming, News, Promotions and Technical).

Here is her reply (note that she DID reply and that never happened before):

Our plans have not changed.

Cindy L. Velasquez
Vice President and General Manager
Denver's 7, KMGH-TV


Maybe the FCC can change her mind. Does anybody know what it would cost to get a used transmitter with more power? There must be some around at other stations (McGraw-Hill owned?) in the country since many are moving quickly to full power from a temporary transmitter.

Guys,
I hate to write a letter and get her in trouble. I hadn't seen her 'til yesterday, she's pretty hot!

GM's never looked like that at my former stations!

Yeah, baby yeah! ;)

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I also sent a message earlier to Cindy on the KMGH website feedback page with the same general comment and question (copied message to Programming, News, Promotions and Technical).

Here is her reply (note that she DID reply and that never happened before):

Our plans have not changed.

Cindy L. Velasquez
Vice President and General Manager
Denver's 7, KMGH-TV


Maybe the FCC can change her mind. Does anybody know what it would cost to get a used transmitter with more power? There must be some around at other stations (McGraw-Hill owned?) in the country since many are moving quickly to full power from a temporary transmitter. I fully expect KMGH to refuse to do anything and the FCC to let them do nothing.....but....nothing ventured nothing gained.

That said they really don't even need a more powerful xmitter. They could just relocate their existing transmitter and antenna from the top of their building to the top of republic plaza. They would then have to get the signal from their building to Republic Plaza. They could do this with an STL (Studio to Transmitter Link) which is maybe $50K or they could rent fiber from Qwest. They would obviously also have to make arrangements with the Republic Plaza Building owner and pay whatever fees he/she/it wants. These costs don't even come close to their bogus $400K figure and their signal could now be seen by tens of thousands more people. Of course more watts means even more range and a bigger coat hanger would also help.

Speaking as an out-of-range outsider, I think that it would be better to make sure that KMGH gets on Comcast HDTV cable, rather than putting up a better toy transmitter for 18 months.

No, I don't like paying for what should be free, but for the short term that is the best way to cover the most viewers. Of course, a new relocated transmitter would be great, but cable does now give them another way.

With apologies to JM & others:
KMGH-DT is on the air? Gee, I'm getting a big fat zero!
KCNC-DT is on the air? Same thing!
KUSA-DT is on the air too! Ya coulda fooled me!
KRMA-DT is on the air? Wow, I get a zero there too!

Good luck with your campaign, but maybe we should ask KMGH about the cable option.

Mark

This was interesting at the hearing...

Some guy who's a cable consultant, spoke of Comcast already delivering DTV over cable. But, it's only in testing, and only to comcast employees.

He was anti-tower, saying nobody needs antennas anymore, blah, blah, blah.

When we asked some of the stations, they said they were not supplying a feed to Comcast. And, Comcast was taking the 'off-air' signals and then re-transmitting them for the cable feed.

Not sure of the quality of the Comcast compressed signals.

I just wanted to tell everyone how much I appreciate all of the work that has been done by Denver AVS members to help in the LCG approval process.
I lurk ..but I read the thread almost every day. I have sent several letters (and will to the FCC and channel 7). I am just very happy that some of us had more time and energy to give. I feel certain that this involvement was the deciding factor in getting the process completed ...with the outcome we all wanted.

Thanks Again guys !!!!!!!!


Phil P

Yay! I've been out of it for the last few days and behind on e-mail, but turned on my TV to KCNC about 1/2 hour ago and just heard the news and also decided to catch up here. They said "you will see a new landscape and tower" and showed the computer drawing of Lookout Mtn., and said to watch for an article on the 6 pm news.

Originally posted by santellavision
This was interesting at the hearing...

Some guy who's a cable consultant, spoke of Comcast already delivering DTV over cable. But, it's only in testing, and only to comcast employees.

FWIW, I asked the "Cable Guy" about HDTV when he was installing my cable modem and he said they were already testing it in various areas and the signals were only available to the techs so they could get up to speed. He said HDTV would be coming sometime this year.

I think Mark probably has the better idea about working the cable part of it. In fact we should be trying to make sure all the stations are trying to get on cable. I do not expect the FCC to force KMGH to do anything because they have already accepted the situation as it stands right now (or they would have done something about it by now). After the completely bogus BS answer given by KMGH during the last go around I do not see them changing their position, but I have no problem slamming them again.

I'd like to take April 21, 2005 (that's my birthday)

I hope Comcast HD takes off. I'd like to see an interim solution until OTA is ready to go.

It looks like KRMA is now putting the PBS loop on 18-01 in the evenings.

My 6000 likes that a lot better then the constant switching to 80-3. :)

I will take the first Tuesday after the last MNF game on KMGH(ABC). Problem is I don't know if it will be the 21st or 28th. I will take my changes go ahead and lock me in for the 21st of December 2004.

Leonard Wood

I thought it was hilarious how the final sCARE salvo against us in the forum was one of their supporters citing a bogus study. Even in jest, that was kind of a classic way to sum up the whole thing..........
Congrats to the stations and to us as well.
Jeff

On the subject of Comcast HD, I am constantly getting their adds, but I have never seen one that says they will bring me all the local channels in Digital HD free of charge. Until they do, there had better be an over-the-air free option.

According to the KCNC story this evening, they "hope to start construction as early as next spring", but "it will take at least 1 1/2 years to finish construction". That would fall 2005 at the earliest. :( I had hoped by the end of 2004, but now we are looking at another 2+ years without full power.

HDTimeshifter
You have to remember, the stations had no idea that they would have to build this new tower. How could they have been expected to have the equipment, trucks and crews ready to go, they have only know about DTV since oh, say, 1996.
:mad:
It's no wonder I just got toatlly fed up with this whole process, even the good guys are abusing us and the system. BTW, I still am getting a zero reading on KMGH 17. Good thing I still keep it under control and civil here in the forum. If I said what I really think....................??????
:mad:

As KMGH has proven, 7 years is apparently is not enough time to prepare for something in the TV business. Of course it would help if they really 'wanted' to e on the air. That comment starts to make my birthday in 2005 look pretty close, if not even optimistic.

Couple of cable notes:

AFAIK, there are no O&O CBS HDTV stations on Comcast anywhere in the country. Comcast insists on using less bandwidth for HD channels than the full 19.1 mbps; CBS insists on having its HD broadcasts at full bandwidth. Don't look for KCNC-DT on Comcast anywhere in the near future.

Rick Craddock (KMGH engineer) emphatically stated that Comcast was able to pull in KMGH-DT. At the hearing on Tuesday though, he was not aware of any plans by Comcast to distribute KMGH-DT.

When asked at KUSA a few weeks ago, Don Perez was not aware of any plans by Comcast to distribute KUSA-DT.

Comcast has sent me 2 fliers now claiming that HDTV is coming to the Denver area in August. A call to their toll free number revealed that the CSRs know nothing about this, and won't know anything until August.

The "cable guy" consultant who testified at the Taj on Tuesday, when confronted with the fact that some people do in fact depend on free OTA TV, stated that he thought that Comcast would supply free local channels to people who didn't subscribe to cable or satellite should the towers all be removed from Lookout when analog goes away. I'd like to hear Comcast's official position on that :rolleyes:

Spring to begin construction probably isn't a hugely exaggerated estimate. It makes no business sense at all for the complete engineering design to be done on the tower or the building before the zoning was in place on the site to build them. LCG is going to spend a great deal of money getting the design done on the fast track, and it will take a minimum of 5 months to get the design done. No question about that from an engineering perspective. Then the permitting will take a month or two to go through the review process. That's the way it is on ANY major construction project, be it a road, building, tower, dam, landfill, or whatever. This is what I do for a living.

However, there's no way that once the design and permits are in place this thing is going to take another 18 months to build. From a construction perspective, it's just not that large of a project. With decent weather, 6 to 8 months of construction is all that will be necessary. None of the construction materials are that specialized, requiring huge lead time for manufacturing. Regardless of the "flange" issue we've all seen in the past. I stand behind my prediction of November, 2004.

As for comcast, I'll bet you will have to have a minimum programming package of the 2nd digital tier, if not the top digital tier before you will even be able to qualify to upgrade to the HDTV signals. Then, because they have said that HBO and Showtime HD channels will be a part of the HD package, you'll have to be subscribed to HBO and Showtime as well. I'll bet you'll have to be spending at least $80 a month just on your cable bill before you'll be able to get the HD channels from them. And I'm also wondering how much they are going to compress the hell out of the HD channels. The 19.1 MB/s CBS and PBS channels are beautiful to look at. The 12.3 MB/s KMGH signal pixellates on fast motion. If comcast follows the same amount of compression that they do on their analog channels, they'll be sending out the HD channels at less than 10 MB/s, and they will look like cr*p. Of course, I'd love to be wrong about that...bet I'm not, though.

There is a national ad that Comcast uses in markets where HDTV is " coming" where they hammer on satellite providers and the ads state that Comcast is the only way to get the HD local channels for free. Guess they haven't ever heard of an antenna and their definition of free I assume would require " basic" service, plus "digital service", plus HD cable box rental, etc.

It really doesn't surprise any of us who have been around on all the versions of this thread and its derivatives that it would take that long after approval. I think Geof has been estimating at 2005 and perhaps later with lawsuits for at least two years running.

I think a large and difficult possibility out of all this to come is will there be a lack of cooperation or the odd station delays for all the equipment to come in? I haven't heard if there will be a central person or group ordering all the equipment for all the stations involved in LCG2 at one time or if each station will be responsible for that individually. I am a little concerned that we may experience further delays down the road because maybe station A forgot to order Part Z and stations B, C, and D have to wait for that to come in before installation can continue.

Just a mild unsettling thought.

Jeff

Jeff,

I think this build-out should go pretty smooth. The stations have been broadcating DTV for a while. (add your jokes here) And they seem to have most of the bugs worked out.

The tower and X-mitter are about the easiest part of the chain. The master control design, tape decks & HD time-shifting servers, audio, those were the complicated part.

The tower is simple. The X-mitter is simple, just plug it in, microwave it a signal from downtown and you're basically good to go.

I don't think the inevitable (S)Care lawsuit is going to be much of a problem. The Mt. Morrison case was thrown out pretty quick on 'Baseless' grounds. This should be the same. And it will all be happening while they're still in the building design/permit stage anyway.

I've seen towers go up and they do take quite a while. That, plus the massive rock removal to build underground will take time.

I'm surprised they didn't fight the noise/truck/dust issue more. It's gonna be a mess up there to blow-up the rock and truck some off the mountain.

But, but, but, the KMGH lawyer wrote the FCC and several of us that they would be on the air shortly after approval in the spring. Are you guys saying he was 'telling an untruth'???

It just makes you realize what a crock that letter really was.

Originally posted by markdl

As for comcast, I'll bet you will have to have a minimum programming package of the 2nd digital tier, if not the top digital tier before you will even be able to qualify to upgrade to the HDTV signals.

Could be. Anything is possible. I notice theres a thread on this issue right now that shows at least some guys getting their Local HD channels over Comcast without any huge monthly outlay. Course specific costs/terms vary by locale I'm sure.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=281522

Dan from reading that thread (Correct me if I've read it wrong) We should be able to get just the OTA HD locals from Comcast for $10-$15/mo. total. Ask for the lifeline package and HD converter box.

I mostly agree with Mark on the design and permitting timetable. I think he's pretty close on the construction timetable (of the building and tower itself) but there is going to be an awful lot of gear that has to be installed and setup. The process of getting the antenna feed from the building to the antenna could be lengthy (this will be custom built stuff which has exacting tolerances). The high power signals will need to be combined together (in the correct phase) before sending the RF signal to the antenna. This is not flexible battery cable size wiring we're talking about (more like big pipe and rigid like pipe too) - getting it all tuned up is going to take awhile (weeks to months). I do not know the lead time of big RF transmitters and multi channel antennas (to some extent this is going to be dependent upon how many other stations have stuff on order). It's not like this is going to go from tower/building complete to on air in several days.....that process will take months (some of which can maybe be done in parallel with the construction). In the end though I think a 1 year build out is probably quite realistic for a projection at this time. After the designs are complete they will be able to give a better build out time estimate.

Even though my guesstimate is 12/25/04 I'd be more willing to bet sometime in 1st qtr '05 (depending upon so many factors we just don't know about at this time).

For anybody that is interested sCAREd has updated there web site.
Leonard

From: Pete McNally [pete@grinnellgroup.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:42 AM
Subject: Thank you

Friends,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thanks so much to everybody for their support whether it be letters, testimony, or just encouragement.

I know your next question is “how soon will it be on air.” We still anticipate 18 months – 6 months to get the design finalized and permits issued & one year to build it. Hopefully it will be less time to build but that’s Mother Nature’s call. I want to assure you we are pressing forward. We have already hired a construction project manager who is moving forward. We are all quite eager to begin broadcasting, as I know you are.

Thanks again,

Peter McNally, Principal
The Grinnell Group (www.grinnellgroup.com)

Following from is from the CARE web site:

At about 5:30 PM, on July 22, 2003, our own District 2 Commissioner, Pat Holloway, moved to approve the Lake Cedar Group rezoning proposal to allow the super-tower on Lookout Mountain. Commissioners Lawrence and Sheehan then voted to approve. Commissioner Sheehan said that this
proposal would lead to an 80% reduction in RF for most people (ABSOLUTELY WRONG and contrary to what Jeffco's independant RF consultant just told them.)

Following is from the Rocky Mountain News:

Although Sheehan initially said the plan would lower radiation on the mountain by 80 percent, he later corrected that statement, saying, "This proposal lowers overall RF at 80 percent of sites tested and is below the federal standard by 85 percent."

They can't even report the truth to their own people. Still installing even more fear in them. There weren't all that many CARE people there to hear what was said and then they have the nerve to still to report incorrect information. If it was me I would feel betrayed. You want my support and then you can't even report how Sheehan corrected himself.

Originally posted by Lawood

They can't even report the truth to their own people. Still installing even more fear in them. There weren't all that many CARE people there to hear what was said and then they have the nerve to still to report incorrect information. If it was me I would feel betrayed. You want my support and then you can't even report how Sheehan corrected himself. This is exactly what has been happening for years now. It is why I asked the Commissioners (in my email) to consider under what pretenses (fact or fiction) SCARE has been gathering opposition support. What's been happening here is a complete and utter sham, devoid of truth and credibility. IMO this served as their undoing. It's always better to argue with the facts than with some crap that has little or no basis to reality.

I'm sure they use the defense of 'Senility due to RF' in their court proceedings! No wonder they keep getting completely blown-out-of-the-water by the judges.

Like Bill Paxton, oh so perfectly says in Aliens;

"IF YOU HAVEN"T BEEN KEEPING SCORE... IT'S GAME OVER DUDE!"

I also now think it is sCARE tactic to get the mis guided loyal followers to fork over $$$ for a law suit.

To the best of my recollection, Sheehan did NOT correct himself in the meeting. Possibly, he did so later when talking with reporters. In any case, he got it correct in the end as reported by the Rocky. I suspect sCARE people don't read (or believe) the mainstream press as it may not agree with their own propaganda.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
To the best of my recollection, Sheehan did NOT correct himself in the meeting. Possibly, he did so later when talking with reporters. In any case, he got it correct in the end as reported by the Rocky. I suspect sCARE people don't read (or believe) the mainstream press as it may not agree with their own propaganda.
I thought he did but then again maybe radiation from the CARE people was starting to take over my brain.

Anybody know how much bandwidth (i.e., either analog channel space or digital channel space - I don't speak MBz) a cable HD channel requires? I didn't think they could offer it with analog cable - thought they could only fit it in digital cable with compression. I think they would be hesitant to offer it as they don't want to sacrifice those worthless tens of shopping channels just to fit a few HD OTA channels. Their whole argument for digital cable was to get 500 channels (much of which are worthless shopping channels which I can't understand who in their right mind would pay for to watch 24 hours a day, and multiple sports channels plus 100 non-video music channels) instead of simply offering 180 quality analog video channels.

I don't know how those people in the other thread are only paying $10 + $6 for limited basic + HD. Here it's like $30 for basic expanded and $50 for digital including box. I would guess $70-75 for HD digital with box. The whole argument in the past was digital cable capability was required for HD since HD would have to be compressed and I am not aware of any analog compression capability.

From noises the cable companies are making to the FCC and CEA about bandwidth limitations, it sounds like the quality of HD via cable may very well be much worse than satellite due to heavy compression above and beyond what they do now.

Afterall, cable also is squeezing in broadband internet through that RG6 stuff, which satellite is not really doing.

Man, I just hope HD discs have super, super quality since I feel broadcast HD will get sapped of signal integrity just as analog TV has.

Dan

Dennis, I also remember Sheehan correcting himself during his closing. He did stumble trying to say what he meant, but he did get it on record correct.

Those guys paying $16 are just getting the "Lifeline" analog which is like $9.95 plus the HD box rental $5.

The question is whether we will get that offered here. They are at this minute, tearing open my street. It still will take 6-12 mo. to get it all in place and operational.

Forget MNF, but just maybe in time for the Super Bowl!

Can I assume if you have digital cable capability, then you already have HD cable capability?

I also saw occasional pixellation even with digital cable.

OK here's some poop on the Comcast.

I just spoke with them and they do offer what they call 'Basic' service, which is from $9-$13 mo. depending on your area. Here's the kicker... Only offer it in certain areas. For instance, in my area, I can't get digital (yet) and I can't get 'Basic' either, just the middle $30 service - screwy huh?

Also, he didn't have pricing/avail/info on anything HD yet. So, it will depend entirely on your area if they will offer a $10 'Basic' service. I'm screwed!

Let's all sing, shall we... Oh Ca-na-da!

Originally posted by santellavision


Let's all sing, shall we... Oh Ca-na-da! The real cool benefit of this is not having to watch "Colorado's leading BS station" (KMGH) while still getting MNF in HD.....

I haven't been following other cities - is there any word on when Cheyenne and/or the Springs ABC stations will go live with HD???

Originally posted by Geof
I haven't been following other cities - is there any word on when Cheyenne and/or the Springs ABC stations will go live with HD???

The Cheyenne ABC station is, I believe, a KMGH low-power translator. Obviously, they haven't yet invested in a digital translator.

Sorry, Geof!

Originally posted by mbuchana
The Cheyenne ABC station is, I believe, a KMGH low-power translator. Obviously, they haven't yet invested in a digital translator.

Sorry, Geof! Rats!
Come to think of it, I bet that low power translator puts out more power than the original :)

Santellavision from the Denver thread asked someone from the Colorado Springs thread to post an update of DTV in Southern Colorado.

There are two digital stations up and running and two hoped for by the end of the year:

KKTV-DT, CBS, is on the air full time passing through all HD shows. They stretch all 4x3 material to 16x9.

KXRM-SD, FOX, is on the air essentially full time (have been on whenever I check), passing through all 16x9 material, keeping 4x3 material unstretched. I like it that they label their station KXRM-SD, indicating that they are not yet doing true HD.

KRDO, ABC is listed on Titan TV as being due on July 31 but the station says they are shooting for some time this fall.

KTSC, PBS HD is expected sometime this fall.

KOAA, NBC is still "awaiting permit"

All are broadcasting from Cheyenne Mountain. I recieve KKTV and KXRM easily in Manitou Springs. Others have recieved them from the north end of Colorado Springs.

There is a small Tower controversy. The company that manages the antenna farm on Cheyenne Mountain wants the stations to pay more for adding digital transmission. The stations are resisting. It may go to court. Stations seem to be holding off promoting their digital stations until this is resolved.

I wonder how far north people could pick up these stations.

Roy

Thanks Roy!

Wow! a tower controvesy... Imagine that.

Originally posted by Geof
The real cool benefit of this (singing Oh-Can-a-da for your HD programming) is not having to watch "Colorado's leading BS station" (KMGH) while still getting MNF in HD.....


And even cooler benefit is basically not having had to worry about the Circle Jerk in this neck of the woods at all over the last few years.. much less the next 1 1/2 or 2.

Kind of reminds me of that Poll going on about whether to keep the DirecTv HD Package. And guys noting that they bought their HDTV's to watch HDTV on so why wouldnt they sub to it if it's more or less that or not a whole lot of anything else.

Thanks for the info Roy. I think KKTV-DT is channel 10. I get a very snowy version of Channel 11 but haven't tried picking up 10....I'll give it a shot.

I live between Castle Rock and Lone Tree and had a CM 3021 installed on my roof today. It seems that I am receiving the signal from the CBS Colorado Springs station on ch 24-1. The guide says that it is KMAS-DT but the news show was Channel 11 from Colorado Springs. This gives me hope that I will have a chance to receive ABC programming somtime before 2005!

Yes, KKTV-DT is channel 10 although it maps into the guide as channel 11-1.
I believe KXRM is channel 22 and maps as 21-1. KKTV is supposedly full power and KXRM low power. I don't know why KKTV would come in under different call letters on channel 24.

Iwanthd: I don't know where your signal is coming from but it is not from Cheyenne mountain. I live very close to the mountain and have a direct view of the antennas. I get a strong signal on channel 10 but no signal at all on channel 24. Could KKTV-DT have a repeater somewhere?

Roy

My receiver re-maps to 24-1 when I enter 10 on the remote. The guide indicates that it should be a spanish speaking station. Maybe it has something to do with using a Denver area zip code when I run the guide set up. The signal from KKTV maybe stronger than whatever channel the guide thinks I should get locally. Maybe this is the interference the people from sCARE are talking about. That would also explain the HD pictures emanating from my toaster. Im thinking of installing aluminum foil on the ceiling...

Well maybe you are getting KKTV from Cheyenne Mountain. I bet those pictures from your toaster are smoking! (Very bad joke).

Roy

For those of you who weren't at the hearings...

One of the reported cases of interference was that one gentleman's toaster was apparently acting as a receiver/speaker for a radio station. That kind of interference was explicitly addressed by Marv in the LCG rebuttal. I think he said something along the lines that he believed that a toaster could be picking up a radio signal. Talking about the LCG interference remediation task force, he explained that if someone's toaster, for example, was suddenly displaying digital TV, they'd send someone out to investigate the problem, and likely buy the homeowner a new toaster. Someone suggested that if a toaster was displaying digital TV, it should get patented :)

Thus the toaster jokes.

Couple Technical Issues

1. I have a Hughes E86 HD receiver with DirectTV and a OTH antenna. Any ideas why the DirectTV Electronic Menu Guide will not show the current programming for OTH digital channel KUSA 9-1, NBC. All the menu guide ever lists for this channel is "Regular Programming". The satellite listing for NBC, Channel 9 lists the programming in the guide just fine. I have remapped the OTH local digital channels, but still no luck. All other digital OTH channels show the correct programming in the guide with no problem.

2. Any ideas what may cause drastic increases or decreases in volume from station to station?

Any input would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Originally posted by rmaestas

1. I have a Hughes E86 HD receiver with DirectTV and a OTH antenna. Any ideas why the DirectTV Electronic Menu Guide will not show the current programming for OTH digital channel KUSA 9-1, NBC. All the menu guide ever lists for this channel is "Regular Programming". The satellite listing for NBC, Channel 9 lists the programming in the guide just fine. I have remapped the OTH local digital channels, but still no luck. All other digital OTH channels show the correct programming in the guide with no problem. Because, for some reason, KUSA is still not in the DirecTV APG database. When it does get added to the database it will show the programming.

2. Any ideas what may cause drastic increases or decreases in volume from station to station? I don't think this is a Hughes problem per-se. It is annoying though. I watched Hogan's Hero's on HDNet yesterday and had the volume cranked way up to get a reasonable output level. When the program was over and they switched to a preview I thought my speakers were going to blow with the massive volume increase. Volume is all over the map from program to program and station to station - and especially from program to COMMERCIAL.

Congratulations and a hearty "thank your" are in order for all those AVS members on this massive multi-year thread for their diligence and concereted effort to debunk the "weird science" espoused by the opponents of the tower proposal(s) , fight for approval even when the outlook was bleak and by their efforts, helped to turn the tide that brought about the approval of the proposal by the Jefco commissioners.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill:" Never have so few, struggled so hard , so long to help the many."::D

As most of you already know the biggest concern Commissioner Sheehan had was the third party mediation. How well will it work? I concur mainly because I believe most will call just to create a condition that can not be kept up with. A good contest would be to guess the number of interference calls made the first day when digital tower starts transmitting. Maybe 0 they all moved off the mountain. Not. Maybe 0 they all came to their senses. Not. Maybe 0 the amount cancer up there took it toll. Not. So guess this leaves thousands calling in. Husbands, wives, kids, pets and maybe the interference will be in a phone and the phone will place a call. I really expect to see a revenge.
In fact I wonder how many would call if told the tower was online when in fact it wasn't.

I really expect to see a revenge.It might give the underlings at JeffCo a hassle, but it still won't make the towers magically go away!

I just returned from my vacation in Bali Indonesia and read the good news. I will probably be in the market for a new HDTV as a replacement for my Mitsubishi WS-55805 which I purchased from SoundTrack in October 1999, when the new tower starts transmitting digital TV.

Force the FCC, within 90 days of enactment, to set standards for minimum power levels for DTV broadcasts. At the very least, according to the bill, broadcasters would have to transmit DTV that matches their Grade A service contours by July 1, 2004.

This was a snippet from a thread over in the hardware forum about a proposed plug&play bill. Sounds interesting.

Don

Hey guys,

Didn't think I'd ever post this message...

I'm planning on attending a CARE meeting in September.

Let me back up a little (and forgive me if this is blatantly off-topic)

I've been involved with the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society's Light The Night (http://www.lightthenight.org) walk for a few years now. This September 18th, I'll be walking at Filmore Plaza in Cherry Creek to try to raise funds to beat blood-related cancers.

Since leukemia is one of the diseases cited by CARE as being more prevalent in the areas surrounding broadcast towers, I e-mailed Deb Carney asking if CARE would be interested in participating in the walk or sponsoring me. I also e-mailed Pete to ask for media airtime/publicity/$$$ from the LCG stations for the walk. Unlike some other, higher-profile, walks in Denver, the L&LS doesn't have a huge publicity budget. They prefer to spend their limited money on actual cancer research and quality of life improvements for those affected by blood-related cancers (over 75% of funds raised goes directly to the Society's mission)

Deb forwarded my message to Colin Barton (CARE president) who invited me to attend their September meeting to talk about the walk.

So since I've hit up LCG, CARE, and my coworkers already, I thought I'd give us AVSForum guys a chance to prove that we aren't all cold heartless *******s by sponsoring me for the walk. I've set up a PayPal address (ltn_walk@dr-mal.com) if anyone would like to make a donation to try to beat cancer. Of course, if anyone would like to join me for the walk and raise some money, that would be great too. Most of you have seen me in person -- if I can do this walk, you can too :D

I don't want to completely hijack this thread -- if you have any questions or want to flame me, please use the ltn_walk@dr-mal.com address.

Thanks guys.

-David

Watch your back at that meeting David - they won't forget who you were that quickly... :D Seriously, I hope the stations come through with some PSAs for the cause. Sounds like a good one! Make sure you post a reminder message when the date gets closer.

I called Comcast today and they expect to be offering HDTV in Denver in August. The CSR did not know what channels yet.

Jones Intercable - TCI - ATT - Comcast told me I would have have high speed internet and telephone service in my neighborhood years ago.

Still waiting...............

FYI, Tonight (because of the rain earlier?) I have a sold lock on KGWN-DT 30 - Cheyenne here in Littleton.

To bad no HDTV on tonight though.

Denver Post HDTV article --> http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~1536942,00.html

Originally posted by dr_mal
Denver Post HDTV article --> http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~1536942,00.html This part sounds very interesting....I hope it's true:For Denver-area cable subscribers, Comcast Corp. plans to announce high-def offerings in August. The company declined to provide details in advance.

"It's going to be very compelling and a great offer for people because they don't need additional equipment," Comcast spokeswoman Jeannine Hansen said.

Originally posted by Geof
This part sounds very interesting....I hope it's true:
For Denver-area cable subscribers, Comcast Corp. plans to announce high-def offerings in August. The company declined to provide details in advance.

"It's going to be very compelling and a great offer for people because they don't need additional equipment," Comcast spokeswoman Jeannine Hansen said.


We'll see. According to this site (http://www.comcastcolorado.com/ComcastColorado/high_def_tv.html), you'll need a converter box which Comcast will provide. The spokeswoman is probably just saying you won't need to buy additional equipment (just rent it for a monthly fee forever!!!)

Rent is probably right....but I really hope the very compelling part is true. I'd like to see an HDTV package that has the has all the channels DirecTv carries plus the locals.....and all for a very compelling price of course ;)

Actually, the statement says that you don't "need additional equipment" (either rent or buy). In fact, the term equipment may even include an HD monitor. It makes me wonder what the spokesperson was even talking about. More confusion to the general public - just plug in your TV to the wall cable outlet and you now have HDTV on your existing TV. They already confuse people with 'digital cable', and the ad that implies: unlike D*, you won't see the same channel on every TV in your house when you have digital cable. I wonder what they really have planned or if the spokesperson was misinformed. At least it won't be long until we find out. Also, from other threads - Comcast doesn't carry CBS due to objections from CBS on quality of service - IMO, the best reason to sign up may be moot (at least for now).

I like the timeframe given in the article for the new tower being operational (mid-2004) - it may be that the stations may not have the liberty to choose their own timeline now that there's no political issue left for the FCC to consider.

Thanks dr_mal for the link to the news article - that's two great items in one month. Things are really looking up radically for us out-of-towners. It's hard to imagine how frustrating it has been with all the freeze-ups and audio dropouts at the worst possible time everytime. And many thanks also to you and all who participated in the LCG effort.

Originally posted by Geof
Rent is probably right....but I really hope the very compelling part is true. I'd like to see an HDTV package that has the has ............... plus the locals.....and all for a very compelling price of course ;)

Hmmm! Paying extra for the HD version of the locals on cable. That reminds me of a verse from a recent song.

"as we celebrate mediocrity
all the boys upstairs want to see
how much you'll pay for
what you used to get for free"

From
"The Last DJ"
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers

Just my $0.02.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Hmmm! Paying extra for the HD version of the locals on cable. That reminds me of a verse from a recent song.
No where did I say I'd pay extra for HD locals. In fact I don't even care if I get Colorado's BS leader and would only infrequently watch Colorado's "news leader" (saying that leaves an awful taste in my mouth).

Right now I'm even struggling with whether or not to sign up for the DirecTv $11 HDTV package (buying land in NY state does not improve my cash flow ;) ).

If Comcast offers something similar to DirecTV I may just bite the bullet and switch (I'm paying $10 more per month for Cable internet since I don't have cable TV so there is some incentive to get cable TV).

Then again if they're going to screw around with the HD resolution I will be looking for my next DirecTV HD receiver.

Geof,

Well, then there's DirecTV screwing with the HD resolution currently to be concerned about. High def. on some channels has been downrezed. Hopefully, DISH doesn't start doing this.

Dan

Everyone seems very interested in Comcast when they offer HDTV in the Denver area. Question: Will the HDTV channels being offered by Comcast be worth ( if same as D*) the switch from satellite?

We switched from cable to satellite three years ago, even before HD was being offered. The reason was regular cable programming (even though stated as digital) was unsatisfactory on big screen sets. We switched to satellite because the reception on SD broadcasts was far superior than the same channels being offered on cable.

Today, Comcast only offers certain channels ( the upper channels) as true digital. The lower channels such as your locals are not really considered digital. My brother currently has Comcast out of Fort Collins and is switching to satellite as we speak because the reception is horrible, on non digital classified channels.

Personally we would rather have the HD Package that D* offers and have the picture quality on all other SD programming as well. We would not sacrifice the satellite SD broadcasts for the HD channels (that we already receive) that may be offered by Comcast in the future, and suffer with the poor picture quality of the remaining SD channels

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Geof,

Well, then there's DirecTV screwing with the HD resolution currently to be concerned about. High def. on some channels has been downrezed. Hopefully, DISH doesn't start doing this.

Dan Yeah, you're right. That's one reason I'm struggling with whether or not to get the $11 HDTV package. Maybe Dish will be the only carrier (other than BUD's) that won't be screwing around with HD resolution. Perhaps Hollywood doesn't have to fear HD resolution if everyone wants to compress it.....or, in the case of locals, cram so much advertising into a program as to render it unwatchable.

And yes, if SD Comcast is poor then there would be no point in switching back to cable.

Question: Will the HDTV channels being offered by Comcast be worth ( if same as D*) the switch from satellite?The only reason some of us are even slightly interested in Comcast, is that we cannot receive KMGH at all. Most can get the other networks in HD here in the Denver metro area.

The thing about the "analog" part of cable is that the quality can vary greatly from location to location, even house to house.

My Comcast analog cable looks somewhat better than the SD channels on ExpressVu, on most channels. And the analog portion generally looked a lot better than the now-cancelled "digital cable" portion. But this was channel-dependent too. Anyway, I wouldn't rule out cable because of low-quality SD channels.

The good part about cable is you can try it at fairly low expense and cancel if you aren't happy.

Mark

Originally posted by mbuchana
The thing about the "analog" part of cable is that the quality can vary greatly from location to location, even house to house.

My Comcast analog cable looks somewhat better than the SD channels on ExpressVu, on most channels. And the analog portion generally looked a lot better than the now-cancelled "digital cable" portion. But this was channel-dependent too. Anyway, I wouldn't rule out cable because of low-quality SD channels.

The good part about cable is you can try it at fairly low expense and cancel if you aren't happy.

Mark True enough. It might be that even SD looks great in my neighborhood since it's been pretty much rewired with fiber being used for the main feeds. It used to be that cable had a lot of outages but I get very few rain storms (sigh) that affect DirecTv reception. Perhaps cable outages have become less of a problem - can anyone comment?

SD? Whats that? ;)

I got yet another new flyer from Comcast today on their satellite bounty program. Once again with statements about HD coming in August. In particular stating ever so matter of factly you will get HD locals via Comcast and dont via DBS.

We'll have to just see about that, especially from the outset. Particularly when it comes to CBS since everywhere else in the country it seems that where it's an O&O CBS HD affiliate dealing with Comcast, the two havent reached an agreement for retransmission.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Geof,

Well, then there's DirecTV screwing with the HD resolution currently to be concerned about. High def. on some channels has been downrezed. Hopefully, DISH doesn't start doing this.

Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Down-rez 's Direct TV HD channels would not be of interest to me and I would not subscribe.

Do you know at what resolution they are broadcasting? Or does the answer vary with each of the channels and within that, each of the programs?

I spoke with Comcast today. The CSR said they will have the following HD channels: HBO, Showtime, ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, and Fox (when they are broadcasting in HD). The networks will not be the locals. They will be using the DCT5100 STB.

And of course it will not be available in all areas immediately.

Wavy

The networks will not be the locals.This doesn't sound right. They can't send us NBC from NY or something like that? I'm sure KUSA would scream foul!

Originally posted by Mozart
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Down-rez 's Direct TV HD channels would not be of interest to me and I would not subscribe.

Do you know at what resolution they are broadcasting? Or does the answer vary with each of the channels and within that, each of the programs?

But there was a comment above ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2465760#post2465760 ) that Comcast down-rez's their stations and CBS O&O HD are not on Comcast cable due to this.

Originally posted by santellavision
This doesn't sound right. They can't send us NBC from NY or something like that? I'm sure KUSA would scream foul! Very true. If they could do that then so would satellite.

KUSA (like 'em or not) has exclusive rights to air NBC programming within their DMA. Camcast or Dish or DirecTV or Joe Blow cannot come into KUSA's market and show the same material. Same is true with the other network stations.

What Comcast does versus what DirecTv does vs what Dish does to HDTV signals is really a question beyond the scope of this thread (although I have no objections to discussing it here). Whatever they are doing is likely not going to remain constant. I know when I watched AOTC on HBO-HD my jaw dropped because of the horrendously crappy PQ. I have not seen it that bad since. If Comcast is going to save a few MHz of BW by compressing HD then they're stupid....the one BIG advantage they have over DirecTv and Dish is they only have to show our locals (versus many markets) and they [should] have the BW to do multiple channels of HD. They could beat DirecTv or Dish in an HDTV race and why they'd want to shoot their foot off (by compressing HDTV) is beyond me...

Originally posted by Phil T
It looks like KRMA is now putting the PBS loop on 18-01 in the evenings.

My 6000 likes that a lot better then the constant switching to 80-3. :)

I've been updating the forum from time to time on our progress with KRMA-DT. As you've noticed we now have a unit (called a remultiplexer) in place that can generate a consistent virtual channel number, even when we're passing through PBS programming in the evenings. We're in test mode, so our apologies for any glitches we create for DTV viewers in the meantime.

When we first started using the remux, we were labeling our channel 18-1 which makes a lot of sense when you know we're transmitting DTV on over-the-air TV channel 18. However, the ATSC standard says to use the analog channel number as the major channel number, or 6 in our case. The first DTV program stream is then minor channel 1, the second is minor channel 2, etc. Since we're only generating one DTV stream, it should be labeled 6-1, which is what we're generating as of today.

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has problems receiving our signal during any part of the day as it will help us insure we're sending consistent channel information. You can use the e-mail address: engineering@rmpbs.org. I'll also try to check this forum a bit more often over the next few weeks.

Jim Schoedler
Director of Engineering
Rocky Mountain PBS

Thanks Jim, We'll keep an eye out.

Since you're here, I have a few questions.[list=1]
I've been catching Soundstage the last few weeks. Looks great! I've heard on this forum that other local PBS stations around the country are passing DD5.1 audio. Any idea when KRMA will be able to pass the DD5.1 audio? Have you done so on other shows that I've missed (local or national)?
How about dynamic PSIP information (show title, description, rating, etc.)?
[/list=1]

We're also anxiously awaiting some info on how the tower process is going. Is anything holding you back? Any better predictions/estimate of a live date?

Don't be such a stranger. :)

Ron:

KRMA showed a Bob Fosse show on Broadway dance. It was in 5.1 sound and was the very best HD show I have ever seen. I sent the folks at KRMA many kudos about that show. Hopefuly, that is a standard they will be trying to achieve.

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has problems receiving our signal during any part of the day as it will help us insure we're sending consistent channel information.
Jim Schoedler
Director of Engineering
Rocky Mountain PBS My Hughes DirecTV receiver always referred to KRMA-DT as 6-1 so there's no change in that regard....the signal is coming in fine now (there are days the signal is too low for a usable picture). The one thing I did notice is that the station seems to tune in faster (i.e. after tuning into any local DTV station there's a delay before anything happens but that delay seems shorter on 6-1 now).

I'll also be interested in hearing progress reports on your Morrison efforts.

-------

BTW all I think we all owe a big hearty thanks to James Morgese for the LCG2 approval (yes I typed that right). My first conversation with Mr. Morgese was several years ago and he spent 15 minutes or so on the phone with me explaining all of the issues and what-not. I was really impressed with the time he spent with me and for his enthusiasm for HDTV. During the conversation he explained that his "vision" for getting this approved was to "downsize" (not his words exactly) Lookout by possibly using Morrison for KRMA and several FM stations. He felt the best chances for getting Lookout approved was to reduce it's size and to not include FM. He was right on the mark - everything unfolded pretty much exactly as he thought. He was right and was a visionary. We (us and the LCG2 stations) all owe him a BIG thanks.

Thanks James!

Jim,

My 6000 stayed on 18-01 tonight until I went into the set up menu and manually re-added 18. Then the receiver recognized it as 06-01.

I agree that it does seem to tune in faster now.

Is their a guide that lists the program schedule for KRMA-DT?

BTW, Soundstage is great. :)

Now get PBS to include some of your "Spirit of Colorado" HD footage in their demo loop. :D

This is what Broadcasting & Cable had to say about the Denver situation:

http://broadcastingcable.com/index.asp?layout=print_page&articleID=CA313247

Originally posted by Phil T
Is their a guide that lists the program schedule for KRMA-DT? The PBS National High Definition Schedules (http://www.ptvdigital.org/dt2a_sked.html)

So, is anybody else going to complain about KMGH in a letter to the FCC?

In the last few days, KMGH's signal has been low and erratic for me. I am now in the group that can't get a watchable signal from them. Doesn't really matter much as Alias and NYPD are the only shows worth watching. Tried to see the Nude Awakening scene last night on NYPD but breakups with both sound and video made for a crummy experience.

It would be nice if they would do something before MNF starts. Watching MNF in SD when we know ABC is doing an HD broadcast will be a bummer.

Phil, TitanTV also shows a schedule for KRMA-DT. Usually accurate.

Thanks Ron!

I bookmarked your link. :)

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
So, is anybody else going to complain about KMGH in a letter to the FCC?

I will but I have not yet done so. It will probably be a week or so before I can get it sent out.

It may be more helpful for others like yourself to write. If the FCC gets a number of letters saying you could get the signal but can't get it now that would make a more powerful statement than saying something along the lines of "I can't get it but I want to".....

Geof:

I already wrote the letter and sent it. I won't do another one until the fall if nothing happens.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Geof:

I already wrote the letter and sent it. I won't do another one until the fall if nothing happens. I understand. I was hoping that folks in a similar situation would write....

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
So, is anybody else going to complain about KMGH in a letter to the FCC?


I have not yet writtten but intend to do so. I have been involved with some personal medical issues and a proposal at work which have made the past few weeks pretty crazy. Neil Young at Red Rocks takes priority tonight. Things should be easier on my schedule next week for me.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Thanks Jim, We'll keep an eye out.

Since you're here, I have a few questions.[list=1]
I've been catching Soundstage the last few weeks. Looks great! I've heard on this forum that other local PBS stations around the country are passing DD5.1 audio. Any idea when KRMA will be able to pass the DD5.1 audio? Have you done so on other shows that I've missed (local or national)?
How about dynamic PSIP information (show title, description, rating, etc.)?
[/list=1]

We're also anxiously awaiting some info on how the tower process is going. Is anything holding you back? Any better predictions/estimate of a live date?

Don't be such a stranger. :)

Ron,

When KRMA passes through the PBS HD feed, the AC-3 audio PBS transmits is also passed through. If PBS encodes 5.1 that's what you should receive. In other words we don't modify the signal, either video or audio.

I've noticed that PBS sometimes includes two AC-3 streams in the transmission. The second stream is Descriptive Video Service. I'd be curious to know how your receivers handle the second stream. Is it identified as available? In what way? How do you switch to it?

I understand your wish for dynamic PSIP. It's on our radar to provide and some of our staff have been working on some of the issues such as how to assure accuracy of the data and how to keep it updated to follow program changes.

By the way, there is a website that provides a program schedule for the PBS HD feed. It's at http://ptvdigital.org/dt2a_sked.html. It doesn't list the audio formats. It's in Eastern Time, so subtract two hours.

As to the Mt. Morrison project, I'm really pleased with our progress. After receiving six proposals, we recently selected the tower design engineering firm and have started work on that phase. We also completed engineering on our FCC applications and filed them with the commission. And we've done quite a bit of work on designing the antenna that will meet the county requirements for RF radiation pattern.

Thanks for your comments, and thanks again for watching PBS.

Jim Schoedler
Rocky Mountain PBS

Originally posted by Phil T
Jim,

My 6000 stayed on 18-01 tonight until I went into the set up menu and manually re-added 18. Then the receiver recognized it as 06-01.

:D

I hate to tell you what we went through this afternoon with the remultiplexer unit. It doesn't seem to work exactly as intended, and we had to switch back and forth between PBS HD and our local HD feed several times trying to find out what was happening. If you were trying to watch this afternoon, our apologies.

The good news is we found a workable configuration that will provide the consistent 06-01 PSIP that we wanted.

Jim Schoedler
Rocky Mountain PBS

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler
I hate to tell you what we went through this afternoon with the remultiplexer unit. It doesn't seem to work exactly as intended, and we had to switch back and forth between PBS HD and our local HD feed several times trying to find out what was happening. If you were trying to watch this afternoon, our apologies.

The good news is we found a workable configuration that will provide the consistent 06-01 PSIP that we wanted.

Jim Schoedler
Rocky Mountain PBS

Thanks. I thought something was wrong. On my 6000 I was receiving a 60-64 signal, but the 6000 receiver was unable to lock on it. Later went to no signal. This evening all seems to be fine.
Again thanks for the info.

Here's two letters in the RMN today...

A Top 10 list on Jeffco's new TV, radio tower
------------------------
Top 10 Reasons Lookout Mountain's New Supertower is a Win/Win:

1. Lookout "Mountain" would only be a foothill without the added tower height.

2. With a little wind, towers work like a big bug zapper on those pesky birds and hang gliders.

3. The new 27,000-square-foot complex will have an observation deck to monitor the incredible shrinking market of broadcast television.

4. The massive 3 ½-inch-wide guy cables and a few extra lights will make the Jefferson County Christmas tree even bigger than the White House's!

5. That warm fuzzy feeling from the radiation means pure quality programming.

6. Surviving residents can earn big bucks as research subjects in ongoing immunology study.

7. Local schoolchildren get firsthand experience of just how their government is working for them.

8. Low-income housing with panoramic city views!

9. Tourists are amazed and delighted by strange creepy feeling around Buffalo Bill's grave.

10. Combining panoramic vistas and historical settings with an industrial zone celebrates our diversity.

Eddie Alianiello
Golden

Jeffco commissioners praised for tower vote
---------------
Three cheers to the Jefferson County commissioners for ignoring the tyranny of a very vocal minority and permitting the TV tower that will bring high-definition TV to the metro area.

If you bought a home up on Lookout Mountain before the construction of the first radio/television transmitter tower up there, I'm willing to listen to your input.

To the other 98 percent of the homeowners who bought near long-existing antennas, I say "Sit down and shut up." The whole not-in-my-backyard mindset is idiotic when you move into an existing situation.

R.A. Schaeffer
Centennial

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler
I hate to tell you what we went through this afternoon with the remultiplexer unit. It doesn't seem to work exactly as intended, and we had to switch back and forth between PBS HD and our local HD feed several times trying to find out what was happening. If you were trying to watch this afternoon, our apologies.

The good news is we found a workable configuration that will provide the consistent 06-01 PSIP that we wanted.

Jim Schoedler
Rocky Mountain PBS Thanks for the update Jim.

Yeah, I noticed the digital and and analog ch6 went dark a few times yesterday afternoon.

A reminder for this weekend for folks with the Dish 6000.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/popUps/programming/hdnet/hdnet.shtml?section=programming

I feel bad for any of you that missed the Lucinda Williams Sound Stage broadcast on PBS (for all I know they probably broadcast it every 5 hours as part of their evening HD loop). This had to be one of the best examples of how good 2 channel 384kbps DD can sound when done right!

The concert footage was also very well lit and you could definitely see how hard Lucinda has lived. Truly compelling footage as to why NTSC has got to go! I only wish that my wife was here to see it (she is a big Lucinda Williams fan).

-Matt

Agreed, the Soundstage show with Lucinda was especially good. She puts on a great show and the HD was particularly revealing. I recommend the show to anyone who can catch it this week.

BTW, I just saw her show last night, she was the opeing act for Neil Young at Red Rocks. HD is nice, but the acoustics 'on the rocks' were better.

Originally posted by MattF
I only wish that my wife was here to see it (she is a big Lucinda Williams fan).

You didn't tape it? :p

Originally posted by JMartinko
Agreed, the Soundstage show with Lucinda was especially good. She puts on a great show and the HD was particularly revealing. I recommend the show to anyone who can catch it this week.

BTW, I just saw her show last night, she was the opeing act for Neil Young at Red Rocks. HD is nice, but the acoustics 'on the rocks' were better.

Opened for Neil Young huh? I find that very ironic because while I confess to not having been familiar at all with the gal until the Soundstage last night, the first thing I said to the wife after listening to for a minute or two was how she sounded just like a female Neil Young!

Originally posted by DP1
Opened for Neil Young huh? I find that very ironic because while I confess to not having been familiar at all with the gal until the Soundstage last night, the first thing I said to the wife after listening to for a minute or two was how she sounded just like a female Neil Young!

You are right, she was a good 'match' for Neil's crowd. Her show at the "Rocks" was done in two parts. First she did the slow ballads, much like Soundstage, but in the second half, she 'got down' and it was a MUCH more lively show than Soundstage. She was also much more animated on the Rocks and was dancing around the stage like she was in her 20's. She wore a cut off top which revealed an armful of tattoos. The revealing part from Soundstage is that she is much older than she looked on stage, she actually turned 50 this year. It looked like she was having a lot of fun playing at the Rocks. She commented about how much fun it was to play there and open for Neil, and it sounded pretty sincere as opposed to the usual required statement.

In person, the drummer, Jim Christie, was also a real piece of work. He was constantly making these weird facial expressions, and with the beard and the colored stage lights, he looked like an escapee from an 'institution' at times. He is not quite as strange on Soundstage, the whole show was toned down a bit from the Rocks show. Take a peak at him a few times during the show.

At any rate, I do recommend the Soundstage. It is listed for rebroadcast at 8:00PM and 11:00 PM (as I read the weird schedule, you should check to confirm) on Saturday night. It is worth a look.

BTW, I don't know if anyone else made it, but Neil's show was absolutely amazing. The first 95 minutes was all new music from his next album (Greendale) which received a standing "O" at the end, followed by over an hour of good ole fashion 'sh*t kickin' music from Neil and Crazy Horse. There is a CD scheduled for release in 2 weeks with the Greendale show, but I don't know any details. All of the staging would certainly make a terrific HD program. Hey, if Lucinda deserves HD treatment, then I think Neil has surely qualified too.

Originally posted by mrvideo
You didn't tape it? :p

I've been holding off on purchasing a JVC or Mits DVHS because I have a Panasonic TUDST50. It has 1394 and works with the now defunct panasonic DVHS but I don't know if it will work with the other machines?

-Matt

Matt,

It is supposed to work as well with the newer machines, but you are right, you never can tell.
Jeff

I'm dying to get either a D-VHS or the 921 Dish DVR. The JVC 10K is super-cheap right now, but it's really buggy.

And now I read Dish is going to charge an extra monthly fee of $10 to use their new PVR's! (or DVR as they are calling it) I'm typing this while I am bending over ;)

Now I know I'm not going to get one of their PVR's!! I guess it's a home PC for storage or a DVHS deck for temporary stuff.

What a bummer! You now have to pay to record...

Dan

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler
I hate to tell you what we went through this afternoon with the remultiplexer unit. It doesn't seem to work exactly as intended, and we had to switch back and forth between PBS HD and our local HD feed several times trying to find out what was happening. If you were trying to watch this afternoon, our apologies.

The good news is we found a workable configuration that will provide the consistent 06-01 PSIP that we wanted.

Jim Schoedler
Rocky Mountain PBS

Hi Jim,

I am having trouble with RCA DTC-100 receivers and the 06-01 remapping. I have one DTC-100 embedded in an RCA F38310 and another one standalone downstairs. Neither receiver will display a picture when the 06-01 re-mapping is active and both receivers exhibit the same behavior. Whenever the 06-01 is not active, I get good high def video and good audio on 18-1 (as was the case Friday evening August 1). At this point the channel search had been done when the 06-01 remapping was not active and detected ATSC channel 18. The remapping to 06-01 then provides a blank screen with grey bars and antenna strength is good at 88. A new channel search when 06-01 reamapping is active detects the 06-01 map but no video or audio appears. The antenna signal strength for 06-01 is still 88 at that point, so I believe there is something funky with the DTC-100 software as it disables channels it does not find when doing a channel search. I had similar problems with remapping of 80-3 vs. 18-1 previously. If I did a DTC-100 channel search while 80-3 was active, then the DTC-100 would not get video/audio when the local feed 18-1 was active in the morning. However, if I did a channel search in the morning, I would get 18-1 in the morning and high def 18-3 in the evening (80 was disabled). I learned to do a channel search only in the morning so I would not lose KRMA-DT. I wish that the DTC-100 had a way to manually add channels to the active list so that I could tell it to only look for 06-01.

Jim, thanks for participating here in this forum. It is great for us to have an opportunity to provide feedback as the broadcasters bring up new equipment.

Don

Update Monday 5 Aug: I do now get the local feed in the mornings on 06-01 but not the PBS feed in the evenings. The local feed is visible when I get the KRMA-DT tag visible which seems to be only when the local feed is passed through in the morning. The KRMA-DT tag and the video/audio disappear in the evenings.

Originally posted by donyoop
Hi Jim,

I am having trouble with RCA DTC-100 receivers and the 06-01 remapping. I have one DTC-100 embedded in an RCA F38310 and another one standalone downstairs. Neither receiver will display a picture when the 06-01 re-mapping is active and both receivers exhibit the same behavior. Whenever the 06-01 is not active, I get good high def video and good audio on 18-1 (as was the case Friday evening August 1). At this point the channel search had been
[snip]
Don

I'm having this exact same problem with my RCA F38310 and ch 06-01. Anyone have any suggestions?

-- Dom

I dunno folks. I got a wireless cable modem and have been enjoying to freedom of being connected without being wired. I hope I am not microwaving myself in the process.....maybe I ought to go ask Deb for some advice :)

Speaking of RF radiation effects, has anyone else seen the ads on channel nine regarding DTV. This one is almost enough to make me bring up breakfast. They talk about HDTV; the beautiful pictures, the fact that more and more shows are being televised in HD these days, and the drop in the price of HD ready sets. OK, so far I am with them (although NBC is certainly NOT the leader in HD programming). Then it gets a little sticky. Next they make the claim that much of their programming is already available in HD (I am sure the folks in Greeley and Ft. Collins are thrilled about that), and then they close with the channel 9 logo and a screen shot that claims Channel 9 is the leader in HDTV.

Now I am not always the brightest bulb on the block, so I went back to check the Denver DTV site and sure enough, channel 9 was listed as the last major station to broadcast HDTV in the city. So can someone explain to me where they come off claiming they are the 'leader in HD'. I suppose this is part of their marketing approach (similar to the the spin we hear from everything from Madison Avenue to the White House), "If you just repeat something enough times it will become true!". Let me guess that a few years from now, except for a few of us in this thread, any poll taken in Denver will show a majority of metro Denver residents believe channel 9 led the way in the development of DTV in this area. It almost lends itself to a poll for this thread if someone wants to start it. Which station is the MOST hypocritical in its public position on DTV in Denver, KMGH or KUSA?? Opinions??

Originally posted by JMartinko
Which station is the MOST hypocritical in its public position on DTV in Denver, KMGH or KUSA?? Opinions??

That's a tough one -- at least (AFAIK, since I stopped watching) KMGH doesn't even really promote themselves as being on the air with HDTV, which is a good thing. In a few years, though, you'd better believe they'll be pumping the ol' "We were first on the air with HDTV in Denver" line for as much as it's worth.

I think there a couple of simple tests to see who the HDTV leader in Denver is.

1) Who has the most hours of HDTV programming per week (not counting demo loops)? I think this'll come down to KCNC or KRMA.

2) Who has created local HDTV content? Certainly not KUSA. IIRC, when speaking to people at KUSA about creating local content, we got a big talk about how expensive it is and how nobody can afford to do it, and it'll never happen. Only problem with that is that KRMA is doing it now.

3) Which stations have used their digital transmission equipment to bring us a High Def Super Bowl? That would be KRMA (with the assistance and permission of the great folks at KCNC) KMGH gets partial credit for bringing a High Def Super Bowl to 10 people.

Funny, I don't see KUSA in ANY of the categories above.

Originally posted by dbucciar
I'm having this exact same problem with my RCA F38310 and ch 06-01. Anyone have any suggestions?

-- Dom

Last night I had a similar problem with my SIR T-150. If I tried tuning to 6, I got no signal. If I tried tuning to 18, the PSIP showed 6-0, and the TV showed No Signal. But the signal strength on the meter was at it's normal level, and the signal was "locked". So I think the PSIP was confusing my T150.

-- Greg

dr_mal
Yeh, I know what you mean. So far the ONLY category I can think of in which KUSA leads is in 'self promotion'. I am just not sure if that counts.
:rolleyes:
It leads me back to my original premise which is, if they just say it often enough it must become true.
I suppose this is part of their marketing approach (similar to the the spin we hear from everything from Madison Avenue to the White House), "If you just repeat something enough times it will become true!".
I think we are in the early stages of KUSA's attempt to re-write history. As for the most hypocritical, in my book it is hands down KUSA since they spend the most time self promoting, with KMGH a close second. Speaking of KMGH, it appears that tonights Hall of Fame Game will be in HD on ABC. Those of you with home theaters, just toss all the gear in the trunk of your car and head down to KMGH and you can watch the game in their parking lot. I have not heard if they will provide refreshments.

As for which station 'really is the leader' I think it must by KRMA. James Morgese's leadership in the first years of the LCG was certainly not matched by any of the other LCG stations, and it was also James who saw the wisdom in moving his station and the two FM's out of the Supertower and over to Morrison. KCNC would take a close second for their effort to get on the air too, but they also have to pass on a lot of credit to CBS. No one would have been watching KCNC HD if it wasn't for the numerous HD telecasts from CBS. I need only to point out the limited discussion of FOX here in town. Although they have been on the air in near full power DTV for several years, the absence of programming from the FAUX network has been a killer for them, along with the seemingly endless lip synch problems.

Hey guys,

Got a CSR at Comcast who seemed to know what she was talking about in terms of HDTV in the Denver area...

Launch date: August of 2003. She suspected the end of the month, since they're still in testing mode
Pricing: forgot to ask.
Channels: HBO, SHO, inDemand, KRMA, KUSA

We all know that we won't see KCNC until CBS and Comcast can come to some sort of agreement.

She said as other providers make their HDTV signal available to them, they'll make it available to their customers. No mention of when we might see ESPN-HD, Discovery HD Theater, KDVR, or KMGH.

I realize this information is all early and subject to change before they formally launch, but thought it was interesting nonetheless.

The ONLY way I will get Comcast ever, if they have KMGH. I can get all of the other digital channels...so why would I?

John, nice re-cap..I could not have put it better.

KUSA-DT is still iffy, not signal wise but the HD mode. It is 50/50 if they xmit Law & Order and Leno in the "correct" HD mode. Sometimes it's SD/black bars, and sometimes it's correct.
They seemed to have fixed their low-audio issue, though.

As far as Comcast goes, it would be nice to see inDemand, but that doesn't launch until September, according to their website. But I believe they have some kind of testing/demo/movie loop, or so what the website says.

I called Comcast today as well. The lady I talked to told me she just recently did training on the HD stuff. She told me that for now there would only be two channels offered in HD, NBC & PBS (she said 9 & 6). No ABC, CBS or Fox for now. She also said that while I'd be able to watch HBO movies in 16:9, HBO-HD wasn't available yet.??? And no ESPN-HD, DISC-HD or HDNets.

I asked about pricing and she told me the box rental (Motorola 5100) was $9.95 per month above which ever package I picked (basic is $13.44 and includes locals, superstations and discovery).

Now, she also told me that satellite only offered two channels in HD. When I listed the HD channels that were available on DirecTv she got real quiet, so I'm assuming she was just telling me what they told her.

As far as availability (not that I'd get it for two channels), she said that it was already supposed to be available, but there have been a few delays (she didn't know exactly what). She said soon. I pushed her a little bit and she thought that if I called toward the end of the week it should be available.

Originally posted by JMartinko
As for which station 'really is the leader' I think it must by KRMA. James Morgese's leadership in the first years of the LCG was certainly not matched by any of the other LCG stations, and it was also James who saw the wisdom in moving his station and the two FM's out of the Supertower and over to Morrison. KRMA and Morgese win in a not even close contest. Without James' insight there would likely be no approvals for either Morrison or Lookout. He had the road-map pegged years ago, of this there is no question.

I cannot believe KUSA is self promoting themselves as being an HDTV leader (err, maybe they're a loss leader) but certainly not a leader I would try to follow (or emulate) by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by donyoop
I am having trouble with RCA DTC-100 receivers and the 06-01 remapping . . .

Don

Update Monday 5 Aug: I do now get the local feed in the mornings on 06-01 but not the PBS feed in the evenings.

Don (and others who may have had this problem),

We dusted off our RCA DTC-100 receiver and did some tests here at KRMA this afternoon after we switched to the PBS feed. While our professional receivers were all displaying nice HD pictures, the RCA exhibited the symptoms you described - it locked onto the channel 18 signal and found the 6-1 KRMA DT PSIP information, but would not output any video or audio.

After trying several configuration changes of the DTV multiplexer, we arrived at a combination which made the RCA receiver happy. We hope all KRMA-DT viewers have similar results this evening.

One thing I've been convinced of for some time is that stations may need to keep around a collection of legacy DTV tuners for years to come, so they can check each model after making configuration changes in their on-air signal. We started here today with the DTC-100 that will become a permanent part of our control room.


Jim Schoedler
Rocky Mountain PBS

One of the lucky ones in Denver. Currently watching Monday Night Footbal Hall of Fame game in HD on KMGH. Absolutely beautiful PQ. All consumers in the Denver area that have invested in HD equipment should be enjoying tonights telecast from KMGH, not just the select few within a certain radius to downtown. Few breakups but not bad.

The sad thing is those not located in a certain radius will still have to wait a couple years, until the new HD antenna is built and in place. Very frustrating.

I have read on this message board, that KMGH is very hard to pick up, but how far out does their signal go. I live near County Line Rd. and Quebec, and I am wondering if anyone can pick it up in that area, and what type of antenna they are using.

Sorry if this question has been asked a thousand times I am new to this board, but can tell from what I have read KMGH is tough to pick up.

Sportfantic,

I live in Highlands Ranch, close to C-470 and Santa Fe, and I can get Channel 7 95% of the time. I do live on a hill, and can see downtown from my roof. I have to use a 80" Radio Shack antenna in my attic, and it took a lot of playing with to get ABC. But, MNF tonight was very well done and looked great! You might be able to get ABC at County line and Quebec, just depends on your line of sight to downtown.

Hope that helps,
Todd

Yeah, it wont be out of the realm of possibility down there but it'll probably just depend on the lengths you want to go to. In general, the higher you can get your antenna, outdoors if at all possible though attic may suffice, and a good size one to boot. A big UHF Yagi style probably.

But anyway, theres definitely guys in that neck of the woods that get it, yet reception from such a low power station like that can vary damn near from neighbor to neighbor.

And of course specific tuners act differently from application to application.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Speaking of RF radiation effects, has anyone else seen the ads on channel nine regarding DTV. This one is almost enough to make me bring up breakfast. They talk about HDTV; the beautiful pictures, the fact that more and more shows are being televised in HD these days, and the drop in the price of HD ready sets. OK, so far I am with them (although NBC is certainly NOT the leader in HD programming). Then it gets a little sticky. Next they make the claim that much of their programming is already available in HD (I am sure the folks in Greeley and Ft. Collins are thrilled about that), and then they close with the channel 9 logo and a screen shot that claims Channel 9 is the leader in HDTV.

I saw the KUSA promo Monday about "being the HD leader". They were the last of the big 3 networks to broadcast in HD. Such inaccuracy leads to a credibility problem with their organization. News organizations pride themselves on credibility. Now I have doubts as to the credibility of their news reporting. Someone should point this out in a "letter to the editor" for their "reader feedback" news segment.

Originally posted by JMartinko
I need only to point out the limited discussion of FOX here in town. Although they have been on the air in near full power DTV for several years, the absence of programming from the FAUX network has been a killer for them.

I noticed that they are broadcasting 480p, and 720p by fall.

What about WB2 and UPN20? Will they be broadcasting 480p or what? The following National Network List (http://www.hdpictures.com/sched.htm) doesn't specify the networks programming plans.

After trying several configuration changes of the DTV multiplexer, we arrived at a combination which made the RCA receiver happy. We hope all KRMA-DT viewers have similar results this evening.

Jim,

Thanks a bunch. I had good video/audio on both DTC-100s both last night in high def and this morning with the local feed on 6-1.


Don

Not much help here, but I will comment anyway. WB and UPN both have some HD content. I have only watched a few shows on each out of curiosity when they first started HD (I'm not a big WB or UPN fan) and I believe they both broadcast their HD in 1080i but I wouldn't want to swear to that one. My Unity Motion receiver will only output 1080i and it converts any 720p to 1080i for output, and my Mits 65905 only shows 1080i as well. I do not have any indicator which tells me the original format. As a result I can't really tell just because I am watching a program. The only thing I notice is that live programming which is converted from 720p (such as ABC) by the UM are not quite as 'sharp' as native 1080i (such as CBS), but since the UPN and WB programming I watched were transfers from film (AFAIK), I couldn't use that criterea. It seems like I did read they were both going 1080i but I may be wrong. I thought only ABC and Fox in the future were using 720p. I do not know what the intentions of WB2 and UPN20 are on the local level.

I watched the MNF game (turned it on right as everyone was huddled around Willie Jones) and was able to catch ~30 minutes before I had to go. The picture looked great, but still not as good as some HDNet & CBS college and pro games last season (at least on my set - Sony KP-57HW40).

I use a Zenith DTV1080 with a radio shack double-bowtie that sits on top of the entertainment center on the ground floor. I seem to get a strong enough signal at my house, even though I am just behind the crest of a hill from downtown. I didn't have any breakup at least.

Originally posted by weldon
I watched the MNF game ....The picture looked great, but still not as good as some HDNet & CBS college and pro games last season (at least on my set - Sony KP-57HW40).


I had the same issue too. The ABC picture is just not as crisp as HDNet and CBS games. I attribute that (at least on my system) to the conversion from 720p to 1080i in my setup. Are you able to watch in native 720p or does your system convert the signal? I guess I am assuming that KMGH broadcasts in 720p, but since I have never seen a whiff of their signal, I would have no way to know.

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler
After trying several configuration changes of the DTV multiplexer, we arrived at a combination which made the RCA receiver happy. We hope all KRMA-DT viewers have similar results this evening. Thanks Jim,

I have the RCA F38310 HDTV also (with the built-in DTC-100) and I can now tune to KRMA-DT by typing 6-1 or 18. Before, I had problems tuning but didn't pay enough attention to track symptoms. Glad you had a DTC-100 lying around.

It scares me to think that receiver brands behave so differently with seemingly innocuous PSIP configuration changes. The same RCA receivers had an audio problem only with KRMA last year back on this page (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&highlight=F38310%20audio&postid=1691152#post1691152) of this thread, and reported in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208311&highlight=f38310). It seemed that the problem was originating from a particular deck you were using. When you retired that deck, the audio locking problem went away. You mentioned that you may begin using that deck again. Is this still the plan?

Originally posted by RonAuger
Thanks Jim,

I have the RCA F38310 HDTV also (with the built-in DTC-100) and I can now tune to KRMA-DT by typing 6-1 or 18. Before, I had problems tuning but didn't pay enough attention to track symptoms. Glad you had a DTC-100 lying around.

It scares me to think that receiver brands behave so differently with seemingly innocuous PSIP configuration changes. The same RCA receivers had an audio problem only with KRMA last year . . . /snip/ You mentioned that you may begin using that deck again. Is this still the plan?

Ron,

Glad to hear the DTC-100's are now picking up the 6-1 KRMA DT PSIP and putting out video and audio. That's good news.

Receiver differences are a bit scary. There is an ATSC standard governing how MPEG is implemented, but it's complex and there are differences in interpretation. We have at least four different receiver models here at the station, and all respond differently to certain configuration changes.

If an when we start using the HD deck again, we'll let the group know beforehand and get your feedback. Also, since we now have a DTC-100 connected up, we'll be able to check things ourselves.

Jim

Originally posted by JMartinko
Not much help here, but I will comment anyway. WB and UPN both have some HD content.

WB is 1080i and does in fact have some content (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164671) . Our local WB is awaiting FCC approval to start broadcasting their HD signal outside of their studio. Until then, they're acting as if the station is on the air, recording the feed from the east coast and inserting local commercials, etc. Everything is in place on Lookout, they're just awaiting the go ahead.

UPN20, if they wanted to, could put an antenna on their tower, some equipment in their existing building, and be broadcasting a digital signal from Morrison whenever they want to. However, they're planning on waiting for the LCG tower to be erected before they put out a digital signal. For them, it doesn't make much sense to do anything now since UPN does NOT have any HDTV content. Paramount has a HD movie package, but apparently our local WB beat out our local UPN station in acquiring the rights to it. There is hope that since CBS's parent company owns UPN, they'll start moving their programming to HDTV as well, but that remains to be seen. I would venture a guess that when UPN goes HD, it'll be 1080i.

The ESPN-HD schedule shows the CU vs. CSU football game on 8/30/03 at 5:45pm local time!

Originally posted by dr_mal
WB is 1080i and does in fact have some content (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164671) .
UPN20, if they wanted to, could put an antenna on their tower, some equipment in their existing building, and be broadcasting a digital signal from Morrison whenever they want to. However, they're planning on waiting for the LCG tower to be erected before they put out a digital signal. For them, it doesn't make much sense to do anything now since UPN does NOT have any HDTV content.

My bad?? I thought that it was UPN that tried to remake the old show "Family Affair" with Tim Curry (sp?) last fall. It was televised in HD, but I haven't seen it since the first night. Was that done on WB and not UPN??? As I said, I don't watch much on either one.

Do u guys think that a pre-amp (Winegard 4700 or CM 7775) would help my signal I am getting signal strengths in the high 80's on KRMA 18, KUSA 16, KCNC 35 and that seems to be enough to lock a good picture and audio. However KMGH 17 and KDVR 32 are coming in the 40-50 range, ABC is watchable but FOX usually shows no picture. I was able to watch MNF last night with a stable picture but the audio dropped out often. I am using a radio shack UHF only antenna (not sure of the model but cost 21.00 looks like an arrow) and RCA dtc100 and I have about 50 ft of RG6 from antenna to receiver. The antenna is mounted about 20 ft up on the side of my house pointed toward down town. I would like to buy a pre-amp from a place around here so that if it didn't work I could return it any one know of a store that sells CM or Winegard? I have read KMGH is almost impossible to get a strong signal lock. I am greatly looking forward to the CU vs CSU game but am struggling trying to decide how to get ESPN HD. I only have Antenna going to my home theater and am a comcast cable customer. I sure hope the carry ESPN HD in this area when/if they release HD, then I can get their HD box and have it up in time for the game. I would like to get Satellite but I bought my DTC100 open box from Radio Shack and the guy said that it was having trouble with Satellite signals???
If I cancel comcast and get Direct installed only to find out my box doesn't work I would have to buy new equipment and that is more money than I want to spend...........but I sure want to watch my Rams on a 92" screen in HD :D

Originally posted by zeff
Do u guys think that a pre-amp (Winegard 4700 or CM 7775) would help my signal I am getting signal strengths in the high 80's on KRMA 18, KUSA 16, KCNC 35 and that seems to be enough to lock a good picture and audio. However KMGH 17 and KDVR 32 are coming in the 40-50 range, ABC is watchable but FOX usually shows no picture. :D

These aren't my stations, but I may be able to help. From Littleton you probably won't get KMGH 17 because their transmit antenna is at too low an elevation (on their studio building on Speer Blvd.). KDVR should have a very strong signal in Littleton, but their antenna is on Lookout Mountain rather than downtown. Try re-pointing your antenna towards Lookout (I70 and C470) and see if you don't receive them. If that works, you may be able to find a compromise position between downtown and Lookout that will allow you to receive KDVR plus the three (KRMA, KUSA, KCNC) that are downtown.

Jim Schoedler
Rocky Mountain PBS

zeff,
Sounds like you answered most all of your own questions in your post. If you ant to improve your signal, you are going to have to experiment. Just make sure you can restore things back to the way you have them now -- you don't want to make things worse. Try the lowest gain signal amplifier from Radio Shack ("RS"). You can always take it back and get refunded. A signal amplifier usually has a piece that is installed at the antenna (if you can access it easily) and a power injector at the receiver which needs AC. There can be no diplexers in between, unless they pass DC. RS has one with a switchable FM trap that I use in my patch panel before it goes into a diplexer/multiswitch. Switching the FM trap "in" is the only way I can get a signal above my receivers threshold (about 34) from downtown about 45 miles away in Elizabeth.

I don't know where you'll find ESPN HD outside of D*.

Originally posted by JMartinko
I had the same issue too. The ABC picture is just not as crisp as HDNet and CBS games. I attribute that (at least on my system) to the conversion from 720p to 1080i in my setup. Are you able to watch in native 720p or does your system convert the signal? I guess I am assuming that KMGH broadcasts in 720p, but since I have never seen a whiff of their signal, I would have no way to know.

I'm converting everything in my STB to 1080i because my set (down?)converts from 720p to 1080i anyways. It's been a while since I set the switch on the back and forgot about it, but I'm pretty sure the Zenith doesn't have a native pass-through mode. Some of the softness is coming from the conversion in my equipment and so other people's experience may vary. I hate to bring up the 720p vs 1080i debate here, but I have yet to see (and may never see) a good 720p program on my setup that compared to a 1080i program in any genre (film, sports, documentary, etc.).

Originally posted by weldon
... but I have yet to see (and may never see) a good 720p program on my setup that compared to a 1080i program in any genre (film, sports, documentary, etc.). That's because (I assume) your display devices are natively 1080i. Either your HDTV set or your STB will convert 720p to 1080i. Just for grins, flip your STB switch to 720p, letting your HDTV set do the conversion. ABC may look the same or even a little softer. Your TV set may have cheaper conversion chip-sets/software than your STB. Of course, you don't want to leave it switched to 720p because 1080i programming would be going through double conversions.

My RCA F38310 is a 1080i direct-view display. I'm very excited about soon having the Sharp XV-Z10000 in the theater (a 720p display device) and being able to compare 720p-on-720p, 1080i-on-720p, 1080i-on ... well, you get the idea.

Lurking long enough.... I did a quick search and didn't see this posted anywhere else (if I'm wrong, sorry). While it sucks that Comcast won't have KMGH or KCNC or FOX they might have ESPN HD soon...

(I'd post a link but I can't for four more posts, go to Comcasts Press Room and find it)

Comcast and ESPN Announce ESPN HD Distribution Agreement

BRISTOL, CONN. AND PHILADELPHIA, PA., July 31, 2003 - ESPN, The Worldwide Leader in Sports, and Comcast Cable, the country's leading broadband and cable communications provider, announced today that they have entered into an agreement for distribution of ESPN HD. Beginning this month, Comcast will make ESPN HD available in markets where it currently offers HDTV service as well as on a broader level as additional HD markets are launched this year. Additional details of the agreement were not announced.

Originally posted by Stobe2k
Lurking long enough....
Welcome to this motley crew (not to be confused with the similarly named rock group) and thanks for the post of the information. I suspect in my outlying area in Boulder we are ages away from HD from Comcast, but its good to know. It is always good to have new faces and new posters here, as many of us have been in this thread so long it feels like 'we' (OK maybe just me) respond only with an dig at KMGH and KUSA and forget to actually refer to the question asked. It is always good to have some new blood involved. Once again welcome.

I mentioned this in a different thread earlier today about 720p vs 1080i. My tv isnt 720p capable at all and I dont really care but I find it interesting that when it comes to film based material, I have no problem whatsoever with the 720p--->1080i conversion done by my STB's on most stuff. Like ABC's NYPD Blue for example and many of their movies like Indiana Jones and others, look just as stellar (if not even better) as anything of that type that I view on other Networks that are native 1080i. CBS dramas, HBO HD Movies, whatever.

But the issue I have is with the video based sports programming as jm mentioned. I'm not nearly as wowed by the 720p stuff on ABC or ESPN HD as I am with alot of 1080i HD sports.

So either the conversion doesnt work as well for that type of programming or theres something about the live 720p broadcasts that arent as stellar to begin with for whatever reasons. The close-ups always look pretty good, but the overall detail otherwise seems to be lacking.

And this wouldnt be a local ABC HD issue because it doeant matter if I watch via KMGH or either of the other 2 ABC HD affiliates I have access to.

Originally posted by RonAuger
That's because (I assume) your display devices are natively 1080i.
Yep. My display accepts 720p, but downconverts to 1080i. I say downconvert on purpose since in theory 720p requires more bandwidth than 1080i.

Just for grins, flip your STB switch to 720p, letting your HDTV set do the conversion.
I may try that some day.
My RCA F38310 is a 1080i direct-view display. I'm very excited about soon... being able to compare 720p-on-720p, 1080i-on-720p, 1080i-on ...
I'd like to hear your impressions when you get the chance.

Originally posted by DP1
But the issue I have is with the video based sports programming as jm mentioned. I'm not nearly as wowed by the 720p stuff on ABC or ESPN HD as I am with alot of 1080i HD sports.
So either the conversion doesnt work as well for that type of programming or theres something about the live 720p broadcasts that arent as stellar to begin with for whatever reasons.
That's an interesting observation. I was really blown away by baseball on HDNet (1080i) and some of the college football games, but the Red Sox vs Yankees game on ESPN HD (before the HD feed went out) wasn't nearly as impressive to me. Still loads better than SD of course, but 1080i was clearly better to my eyes on my equipment. I watched a HD film on KMGH a while back and thought it looked good. Maybe I was watching the movie instead of looking for detail in the crowd shots and definition in the turf and players jerseys :)

Anyways, the last couple ESPN HD programs and now the Monday Night Football game make me really question the wisdom of using 720p. Few people can display native 720p anyways... Oh well, this is an old argument. I just got thinking about it again with the last few 720p programs I saw on Disney stations.

Originally posted by DP1
I mentioned this in a different thread earlier today about 720p vs 1080i. My tv isnt 720p capable at all ...but I find it interesting that when it comes to film based material, I have no problem whatsoever with the 720p--->1080i conversion done by my STB's on most stuff. ........
But the issue I have is with the video based sports programming as jm mentioned. I'm not nearly as wowed by the 720p stuff on ABC or ESPN HD as I am with alot of 1080i HD sports.

So either the conversion doesnt work as well for that type of programming or theres something about the live 720p broadcasts that arent as stellar to begin with for whatever reasons. The close-ups always look pretty good, but the overall detail otherwise seems to be lacking.

Dan,
I absolutely agree with your observations and I am watching straight from 'the source' for my ABC. The regular programming always looks just fine, but sports distant shots are never as clear as CBS sports. The crowd just doesn't have that 'wow' factor in the background on ABC. Yet, like you, I notice the close up shots have all the detail that I would expect. I have always assumed it was the conversion process but I am starting to wonder if maybe that is inherent in the nature of 720p. What blows that theory away for me (at least so far), is that I have also seen a few baseball games on ESPN HD and on the particular set-up, thought they looked as good there as anything I have seen in 1080i. Go Figure!

I guess I won't be able to judge until I get a new HD set since mine only displays 1080i. I am glad to know I am not the only one who as observed that phenomenon. One thing is for sure, I know we are getting awfully hard to please since we have seen how good HD sports can really look.

Originally posted by weldon
I say downconvert on purpose since in theory 720p requires more bandwidth than 1080i.


???

1280x720 pixels = 921,600 * 2 (since you'll get two full frames for every full frame of 1080i) = 1,843,200 bits needed for two full frames

1920x1080 pixels = 2,073,600 bits needed for a full frame

Originally posted by JMartinko
I am glad to know I am not the only one who as observed that phenomenon. One thing is for sure, I know we are getting awfully hard to please since we have seen how good HD sports can really look.

Yeah heck I dunno. Maybe some of this "new" stuff sports wise that just happens to be in 720p is not too bad but really does need a true 720p capable display to appreciate. But for some reason I'm not buying that notion just yet.

But then again, maybe it's just me. Maybe the absolute wow of HDTV in general is gone after 3 years. It used to be where I'd watch *anything* in HD and scrutinize it bigtime in my mind if nothing else. Now I dont do that much anymore. But it just seems like some of those earlier year 1080i football broadcasts really stood out. Like the NFL stuff on CBS back in the fall of 2000. Course those werent any of these dual SD/HD productions deals like we're seeing now even with CBS. Not sure if that has anything to do with it or not.

Maybe jeffden or Hot can interject their feelings on some of this 720p sports stuff since they both watched some of MNF back in 1999. I'd kind of be interested to hear what they think of PQ comparatively even if their displays only accept 1080i. I know Hot has the same set as me but I dont think he gets ESPN HD, just ABC. Maybe he caught part of the game last night.

Originally posted by dr_mal
1280x720 pixels = 921,600 * 2 (since you'll get two full frames for every full frame of 1080i) = 1,843,200 bits needed for two full frames

1920x1080 pixels = 2,073,600 bits needed for a full frame

What do you know? :) I would have written it out as 1280x720 = 921600 vs 1920x540 = 1036800 for each field, but you are still correct. This was just something I heard on the forums and took it as authoritative without doing the math myself.

Looking back at some of the threads, it looks like I missed the point that they were comparing filtered 1080i broadcasts which reduced the effective bitrate since they weren't sending the full 1920x540 anyways.

Just a quick thanks to those who post regularly on this thread. The information gained is!

Also, thank to all the hard work getting the Jefco planning board to approve the new antenna's.

Now, if I can just convince my wife how good this HDTV is!!! :)

I have been reading this thread way to long without posting. I recently moved and am building my basement HT. I just picked up an open-box DTC-100 from BB. Bought a $20 antenna from RS and I am able to get KCNC, KRMA, KDVR and KUSA up in Longmont. I seem to get 18-1 with no problems(no PSIP) but 6-1 doesn't tune. Thanks for all the great info. Sunshinedawg

Originally posted by weldon
What do you know? :) I would have written it out as 1280x720 = 921600 vs 1920x540 = 1036800 for each field, but you are still correct. This was just something I heard on the forums and took it as authoritative without doing the math myself.

Looking back at some of the threads, it looks like I missed the point that they were comparing filtered 1080i broadcasts which reduced the effective bitrate since they weren't sending the full 1920x540 anyways.

Yeah, I think I like your math better. Same conclusion though. I remember back in the day reading some of the 720p vs 1080i holy wars someone did that same calculation, and that's when I knew intellectually what my eyes were telling me: 1080i has more information.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Yeah, I think I like your math better. Same conclusion though. I remember back in the day reading some of the 720p vs 1080i holy wars someone did that same calculation, and that's when I knew intellectually what my eyes were telling me: 1080i has more information. Well yes and no. It has more pixels but they're not as temporally good as progressive. There are pro's and con's to everything and 720p vs 1080i is no exception. Several points of note though:

Most rear projection TV's cannot even begin to resolve 1920 pixels - most 7" guns are good to 1000-1200. You need 9" guns to resolve 1920 pixels. If you noticed that means most 7" RPTV's can't even resolve all 720 progressive pixels. So this inherent limitation in 7" CRT's is not why 1080i looks sharper than 720p.

I believe the reason 720p doesn't look as good as 1080i (for many of us) is mentioned above - it's the conversion from 1080i to 720p. To do this conversion well (I believe) you'd first want to deinterlace 1080i to 1080p (just like DVD's players deinterlace 480i to 480p and with the same inherent problems). Then the 1080p signal would be converted to 720p. I very much doubt this is being done. Rather I think they are taking 1080i and making some sort of 540p signal and then converting that to 720p. In order to convert 540p to 720p information has to be "made up" (created) and that ain't good :). Throwing away pixels (1920-1280) that our RPTV displays cannot resolve isn't harming PQ.

I think Ron (and anyone else who has 720p capability) will find 720p can look very very good - especially for fast motion in the vertical direction.

IMO, what we want is for the CE folks to start making 720p capable sets. The reason most do not is because it requires higher BW (and thus more cost). Displaying 720 progressive lines requires more horizontal BW than displaying 540 progressive lines (540p and 1080i take the same BW).

Dan,

For the KMGH 720P stuff, on the 100 inch screen with VGA projector, I actually am a little disappointed in the film based regular programming ( Alias, etc. ), but agree with you that Raiders of the Lost Ark looked phenomenal in 720 P.

For sports, I was very impressed with last year's Super Bowl on ABC, was extremely disappointed with the Red Sox Yankees game on ESPN HD, but very impressed this weekend for the Reds and Giants game. I have been blown away at times with the HDNET hockey, baseball, etc., but have found myself underwhelmed by HDNET when it originated from Pepsi Center and some others. Some venues don't seem to translate well to HD via our satellite providers and Pepsi Center is one of those.

The long shots are another area where 1080I is much better, along with when they set up an establishing shot of the mountains, etc. 1080I is much superior. I prefer the 1080I for most sports, except for the really fast moving stuff like we saw in the Olympics, which exhibits some twittering and stair stepping on really fast motion and pans, but football translates very well to 1080I ( it really is not too fast for the motion to translate poorly with either format ).

That said, the Hall of Fame game looked great last night and I saw no dropouts at all on KMGH.

Jeff

Zeff, I wonder if you are near me. (Columbine Hills) because my reception pattern is like yours. KMGH and KDVR are iffy, I can usually get one or the other but not both, because my antenna is pointed towards downtown.

I sometimes get a lock on KGWN Cheyenne (CH 30) at a higher signal then KMGH!

The amps I have tried did not work for me, but some have had better luck, so it does not hurt to try.

Originally posted by Phil T
Zeff, I wonder if you are near me. (Columbine Hills) because my reception pattern is like yours. KMGH and KDVR are iffy, I can usually get one or the other but not both, because my antenna is pointed towards downtown.

I sometimes get a lock on KGWN Cheyenne (CH 30) at a higher signal then KMGH!

The amps I have tried did not work for me, but some have had better luck, so it does not hurt to try.

Phil, I am actually in Highlands Ranch (Eastridge Terrace) University and Highlands Ranch Pkwy my city was just changed by the post office and I don't understand why? But I am trying to get used to using it..........I have gotten a lock on KGWN before never noticed the signal strength I will check it out later. I think I am going to try and attach another 5' mast to my current setup raising the mast height to 10'.

Too quiet lately...

So I apparently have too much time on my hands and started thinking about our local stations' call letters.

The easy ones:
KUSA
KDVR
KDEN
KTVD (TV Denver)

Less intuitive:
KCNC (Colorado's News Channel)
KMGH (McGraw Hill)

Slightly confused:
KRMA (Rocky Mountain A???)

KRMA (Rocky Mountain Area)???

Here's a quick trivia (TV Related) The NBC chime... the musical notes are G-E-C for General Electric Corp.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Slightly confused:
KRMA (Rocky Mountain A???) Rocky Mountain (PBS) Association ???

Just guessing (and boosting my post count!)

Damn, I just missed being first post on the page (I was getting quite good at that)

Not to mention you just missed being post #5200 in this thread as well, Ron... :)

Interesting read in the Canyon Courier (http://www.canyoncourier.com/CANYONCOURIER/sites/CANYONCOURIER/0092edition/myarticles552611.asp?P=552611&S=492&PubID=9075)

-Wabisabi

Agreed -- very interesting ... and accurate and informative. If I were a home owner in an HOA that was purportedly under the umbrella of CARE, I would want a full accounting of where the CARE money was spent (Deb's new frosted hairdo?).Attorney fees alone amounted to an average of $55,000 per year in 2000 and 2001 I assume that's just Deb, who has been making a good portion of her living by perpetuating the fight.

The tone of most of the article seems to be that EVERYONE is getting tired of the fight. Good news, indeed.

Originally posted by RonAuger
.........
The tone of most of the article seems to be that EVERYONE is getting tired of the fight. Good news, indeed.

I don't know about them, but I sure got worn out by it. 'Hit the wall' just near the finish line at my place.

The article is a very interesting read. It seems to be the first real 'chink' in the armor of (S)CARE. Since they obviously have lost the argument and will have to resort to a suit, there are apparently now some who will not be willing to pay the legal fees if they lose in court. Other than those like Deb who will accept nothing less than the complete removal of all antennas from Lookout and Morrison, as far as I can see they came away with a heck of a good deal on this one. Fewer towers, lower radiation levels, buried transmitter buildings, and RF measurement and tests paid for by the stations and conducted by an independent service. Short of blowing up the whole mountain, I don't see what more they can obtain from a new suit. At the very best it strikes me they could delay construction for a year or so, but if they have to pay the legal fees when they lose, that is a pretty expensive proposition. I suspect her support is going to start drying up pretty fast.

Originally posted by dr_mal
KMGH (McGraw Hill)


I always thought it was:
Mile hiGH
- ---
:confused:

I know my HOA (Chimney Creek II) up here in Genesee, does not send any money to (S)care.

I would be appalled if my money went to them and I was not told. In fact, I am mad. I lived in Genesee (Genesee Foundation) before I moved over here to Chimney Creek, and I was never told they supported (S)care then!

Why am I getting so ticked-off now? (S)care is H-I-S-T-O-R-Y! The forthcoming, obligatory LCG lawsuit will go down in flames like the Morrision suit did.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Agreed -- very interesting ... and accurate and informative. If I were a home owner in an HOA that was purportedly under the umbrella of CARE, I would want a full accounting of where the CARE money was spent (Deb's new frosted hairdo?). I assume that's just Deb, who has been making a good portion of her living by perpetuating the fight.

The tone of most of the article seems to be that EVERYONE is getting tired of the fight. Good news, indeed. At the very least I would think those folks would want to sit down and figure out if they shouldn't start cutting their losses. To continue seems pointless to me (especially considering that all 3 Commissioners voted for LCG2). I would be furious if I were a homeowner footing the bill for a lawsuit that was lost and then on top of that having to pay the legal fees for the opposing side.

And if that CSU study shows RF levels on Lookout were dangerous (a point I do not concede) what then? What was (CSU is studying the suituation as it was/is before LCG2) might not equate to what will be. Wouldn't the outcome be similar to buying property near an airport (after the airport was built) and then suing for noise?

I wonder if CARE's strategy contemplates a change in the make up of the Jeffco BCC due to term limits. It has been speculated that the Commissioners were able to make a difficult decision without having to be concerned about re-election ramifications. When exactly will the personnel on the BCC change? Could a shift in the political winds allow new members to undo what has been done?

Originally posted by Iwanthd
Could a shift in the political winds allow new members to undo what has been done?

Perhaps if it were up to the new commissioners. Any action against the latest ruling would be decided in the (district?) courts.

Originally posted by santellavision
Why am I getting so ticked-off now? (S)care is H-I-S-T-O-R-Y! The forthcoming, obligatory LCG lawsuit will go down in flames like the Morrision suit did.

Actually, in the paper version of the Canyon Courier, it also talks about the Mt. Morrison suit. It appears that it has not been entirely thrown out, only parts of it. The paper goes on to say that CARE is hoping to get Golden to file an appeal of LCG, that way they do not have to dedicate the costs of an injunction. (Apparently if a government agency sues, they do not have to put aside money for an injunction, whereas if a private agency sues, they have to put aside money to pay for the injunction.)

-Wabisabi

Just when I think she's gone, she's b-a-c-k!
She's like the freakin... 'RFinator'.

Good Morning

Ron
Your site map has given me hope that I may be able to pick up OTA way up here in Loveland. I was hoping you could put me in contact with your Loveland contributor, I have some questions about equipment being used. I have been to CEA's site and according to them, I will need a medium sized antenna and a pre-amp. I just want to make sure before purchasing an antenna and STB. I hope I am not violating any rules by asking for contact info. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Shaun

Shaun,

You might need an antenna rotator too! From Loveland, you should be able to get KGWN Cheyenne (CBS) as well as Fox from Denver. The other Denver stations are iffy.

My suggestion is to try Stark Electronics (Mail-order) for a big UHF antenna. The bigger the better! There's nothing worse than picture breakup due to low signal strength. They are listed in the links on the Denver DTV website (click my sig link below)

Spaced,

MalcolmG (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=9440)'s reception data is here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=1337037#post1337037). You can try to PM him if he hasn't blocked PM'ng.

Thanks to both of you, I will try to contact him. I am teetering between this and waiting for the new Dish systems (811 or 921).

Thanks again for the help

Shaun

Originally posted by wabisabi
Actually, in the paper version of the Canyon Courier, it also talks about the Mt. Morrison suit. It appears that it has not been entirely thrown out, only parts of it. Do you have any more factual details on this? Since the Canyon Courier is, shall we say, ever-so-slightly biased towards CARE's agenda, I tend to ever-so-slightly add a grain of salt to their reporting.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Do you have any more factual details on this? Since the Canyon Courier is, shall we say, ever-so-slightly biased towards CARE's agenda, I tend to ever-so-slightly add a grain of salt to their reporting.

The Canyon Courier was in favor of the Mount Morrison application, but I am not sure about the stance they took on LCG.

Do you have any factual details showing the Canyon Courier to be biased toward CARE? I think the article linked to earlier was fairly balanced.

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi
Do you have any factual details showing the Canyon Courier to be biased toward CARE? No. It is just my opinion.
However, when dropping inuendo regarding law suit proceedings, I would expect there to be some facts behind it. I think the article linked to earlier was fairly balanced. I agree. This article was quite balanced, as I said in my earlier post. My opinion about the Canyon Courier has developed over a few years. I admit I don't read every issue, and haven't kept track of who's articles I felt were biased.

"Of course that's just my opinion .. I could be wrong"

If anyone is wondering why KRMA-DT went to local programming on Friday evening at about 7:30, it's because the PBS DTV satellite feed suffered a rain fade during the thunderstorm that passed over downtown Denver at that time. The signal faded for about 22 minutes.

Jim Schoedler
Rocky Mountain PBS

Originally posted by santellavision
KRMA (Rocky Mountain Area)???

Here's a quick trivia (TV Related) The NBC chime... the musical notes are G-E-C for General Electric Corp.

That is strange how that worked out. I remember when GE bought NBC and Dave Letterman (when he was still with NBC) did a skit with him going to GE HQ with flowers and security threw him out on camera.
The musical notes were made before GE bought NBC. I think GE bought NBC from RCA. :p

Sorry for this post - but the topic sparked my interest and I couldn't resist the urge to 'chime' in...

It's interesting - RCA had ownership, but in the late '50s, NBC had GE Theater. Maybe the name had GE in it as an advertisement (I was too young to remember that). That, in turn, may have been the source of the GEC concept (my guess). When the chimes originated, GE was a part owner of NBC - but the chimes didn't originate as G-E-C - that was the result of trimming 7 notes down, or maybe a rearrangement of the start of "Over There" (see the chimes link below). This site describes the chonology of the ownership of NBC:

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/R/htmlR/radiocorpora/radiocorpora.htm
(The NBC link at the bottom of the article details it better).

The history of the chimes is here:
http://www.old-time.com/misc/chimes.html
This probably falls into the cagegory of "Everything I Really Didn't Want to Know About the Chimes, and Wished I Hadn't Asked (Hey! I Didn't)".

Here's my question: If HD takes off (primarily because of ESPN-HD/ABC football and better affordability) and CARE delays the tower indefinitely, and local merchants are unable to participate in the sales of HD sets as other cities (because DTV is too difficult or impossible to receive here and cable has only partial local inclusion/limited availability), any chance of a class action suit against CARE by the collective merchants for damages?

Wouldn't that be a fun one?

Mark, We have to get you more to watch, you have too much time on your hands. :)

Jeff

I got a call from Pete late last week asking if the AVS group would be interested in taking a tour of one of the transmitter sites up on Lookout. While this is in the early stages of planning, I told him that I'd be interested in going up there to take a look. Would there be interest if the scheduling could be worked out?

Will there be metal (air conditioned of course) suits for us to wear to protect us from the excessive radiation levels???
:D

Mark,

I would love to go on a tour, but I am going to be out of town until the 22nd.

jm,

I thought you were retired? You're not supposed to be getting there with the quips before me! ;)

It would be tough for me to go, but depending on the schedule, I'd try. Is Pete going to bring shovels for all of us? ;)

I'd definitely be interested. Since I work in the shadow of the towers, I could probably sneak out for a long lunch.

Originally posted by RonAuger
jm,

I thought you were retired? You're not supposed to be getting there with the quips before me! ;)


Sorry Ron, old habits die hard. I will try to be more careful.

On the plus side, I didn't take any space in the thread to criticize the absolute hypocrisy of KMGH's lawyers telling us there is no need to move their transmitter to a location where more than 13 people can receive it, because they will be on the air shortly from Lookout. I also didn't take up any of my note to mention the complete hypocrisy of those new sickening KUSA adds telling us how great HDTV is and how they are 'leading the way in HDTV'. I have promised myself not to make such critical posts anymore and I plan to stick to my guns on that one. I think I am getting better at controlling myself, what do you think?
:rolleyes:

As for the tour of Lookout, I would be interested too, but my schedule the next few weeks is extremely busy and includes some time on vacation and some more Red Rocks shows. It will depend entirely on the time and date.

Anyone know someone who would go on roof and install a beam... Do to previous injury I am unable to get on roof, and have no idea who to call. Have beam mounted at about 15 feet but it needs the extra 20 more feet to get solid lock on 4 and 6! 9 works great, and interestingly, Cheyenne booms in!!! Much better than 4, 6, or 9 with a solid lock. Anyhow, Castle Rock location here and would appreciate recommendations for someone who can be paid hourly to work on antenna.... should only take an hour or two!

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by markdl
I got a call from Pete late last week asking if the AVS group would be interested in taking a tour of one of the transmitter sites up on Lookout. While this is in the early stages of planning, I told him that I'd be interested in going up there to take a look. Would there be interest if the scheduling could be worked out? I'm certainly curious and definitely interested - it is going to depend on date and time though.

I saw that KUSA ad and almost vomited. How SICKENING.

I am interested as well in the Lookout tour. Would also depend on date.

Originally posted by skyview
Anyone know someone who would go on roof and install a beam... Do to previous injury I am unable to get on roof, and have no idea who to call. Have beam mounted at about 15 feet but it needs the extra 20 more feet to get solid lock on 4 and 6! 9 works great, and interestingly, Cheyenne booms in!!! Much better than 4, 6, or 9 with a solid lock. Anyhow, Castle Rock location here and would appreciate recommendations for someone who can be paid hourly to work on antenna.... should only take an hour or two!

Thanks in advance.

I used Alpine Electronics - (303) 366-5992

I don't really have any points of reference, as this is the first time I've needed to have an antenna put on my roof. That said, the guy showed up on time, ran the RG-6 where I wanted it, and did a pretty good job. I think I ended up paying something like $250-260 all done and said. That included a new VHF/UHF yagi, since mine had some broken arms.

For those of you waiting for the Comcast cable hdtv alternative that was supposed to be available in August, I just got off the phone with them. I was told it was supposed to be available August 7th but the roll-out has been delayed until further notice. Even a supervisor was unable to give a more definitive date.

Thank you much, called and they will be here Wed. Hopefully the added 15-20 feet will solidify the signal.... frustrating to see the great images then lose them, again thanks for suggestion and will let you know how it turns out!

Originally posted by nu2this
For those of you waiting for the Comcast cable hdtv alternative that was supposed to be available in August, I just got off the phone with them. I was told it was supposed to be available August 7th but the roll-out has been delayed until further notice. Even a supervisor was unable to give a more definitive date.

No big surprise. And if all they are going to offer is NBC and PBS, it's no big loss, either.

We need to keep letting them know that will not sign-up for their HD package if they do not offer KMGH. Maybe after enough complaints, they might take notice.

Originally posted by markdl
I got a call from Pete late last week asking if the AVS group would be interested in taking a tour of one of the transmitter sites up on Lookout. While this is in the early stages of planning, I told him that I'd be interested in going up there to take a look. Would there be interest if the scheduling could be worked out?

I'd be interested.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by markdl
I got a call from Pete late last week asking if the AVS group would be interested in taking a tour of one of the transmitter sites up on Lookout. While this is in the early stages of planning, I told him that I'd be interested in going up there to take a look. Would there be interest if the scheduling could be worked out?



I would be interested

Reggie

yes, I want to go, give me & date and time.....

As long as we are on the subject of possible tours, I recently contacted the folks at HDNet about the possibility of a new tour this fall. I know they are now producing multiple channels as well as doing live events and figured the control rooms would be more interesting than our last tour. I have also had several people mention that they missed the last one and would like to go if we ever do it again. Pending management approval, the troops at HDNet would like to have us back.
:cool:

I have asked them to look at something in September or October, preferably at a time when at least one of the remote trucks is on sight. They are going to get back to me. In the meantime, I would like to gage the level of interest here in the forum. If forced by popular demand, I was thinking we might try to 'retire' to a nearby pub after the tour and celebrate the recent vote in Jeffco. Perhaps we can even toast KMGH and KUSA, and invite some (S)CARE members in order to show there are no hard feelings....NOT. Please post here or send a PM to let me know if there is enough interest to follow through with setting this up again.
:confused:

Sure, I'd be up for another HDNet tour...these guys are Mac users and very cool :)

As to meeting afterwards that would be fine too but I would boycott any KMGH/KUSA toast (other than a one finger salute).

Since I had to miss the last one, I'd definitely be interested if the date and time work out.

I would be intereted in joining athe HDnET Tour.;)

[Jim,
Quote {I have asked them to look at something in September or October, preferably at a time when at least one of the remote trucks is on sight. They are going to get back to me. In the meantime, I would like to gage the level of interest here in the forum. .....

Please post here or send a PM to let me know if there is enough interest to follow through with setting this up again.}

I would be interested in taking a tour...and having a drink ...

Phil P.

John:

Yes to both ideas!

Me too! :)

I would be in for an HDNET tour, I don't know about the tower site as I live or will live at the end of the month directly below the current site.

Jeff

I'm up for both the HDNet and Lookout Mountain tours!