Nothing really to say additionally in this post, except that this one is #6000 in this thread! Yikes!

Actually, Geoff's post is #6000

I hope Don is readng this forum. KWGN-DT is causing my RCA receiver to crash and I have to unplug it to reset it. I haven't tried it yet with "Do not Acquire Off-Air Guides". That will probably help. My newer Sony receiver doesn't seem to have a problem, although it stays mapped to 34-3. The RCA maps to 2-1 but then I don't get a picture or sound on any channel after that, even D*.

I would never have thought that PSIP would be the bane of every broadcasters rollout of DTV. (that, and lip-sync). The FCC really needs to coordinate a PSIP Users Group.

Originally posted by squidboy
Anybody else here have a Samsung SIR-T151?

I tried changing to 34 to check it out, and it killed my STB. It is in some weird loop where it seems to be rebooting itself. I left it unplugged for 15-20 minutes to see if it would clear itself, but it still has the same problem. I'm going to leave it unplugged overnight to see if it works any better tomorrow.

I'd be really interested to hear if anyone else has had a different experience with the T151 (or any other Samsung).

Thanks!

Eric

I have a SIR-T151 too and had the same problem. If you haven't figured it out yet, unplug the antenna from the STB, unplug the AC, plug the AC back in, turn it on and change the box to another channel, attach the antenna again. You should be back in business.

If you figure out the work around for 34, please let me know. I've tried several things to no avail.

K

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
We have tried a few things regarding the PSIP data so we would like the owners of the Samsung STB's to check and see if the are receiving an Electronic Program Guide.
As always, thanks for the input!!

Dave M.
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN/WB2

Dave -

My SIR-T151 still locks up when accessing 34. I don't believe I have the option of turning off the programming guide as others have suggested.

K

When KWGN-DT went on the air, my Sony HD300 found it as 2.1 and the guide had the programming correct (mirroring Ch. 2 analog). I made it a "favorite" and then tonight, tuning to that favorite, I got "no signal' -- it was now 34.3 and DTV guide lists "regular schedule" now instead of actual programs? Great pq though, and no problems with KWGN arriving via the HD300. Signal always at "good" here, in Denver's capital hill.

KMGH....ABC.......7........17 (not on-air in DTV yet )

I get nice pq from this ABC affilliate which maps as 7.1 (17) on my HD300. I guess to the suburban viewers, it's "not on-air yet"? Here in Cheeseman Park neighborhood, it's consistently at "good" signal strength (w/ in-attic, $20 Radio Shack UHF antenna)

Originally posted by GoAvs
I have a SIR-T151 too and had the same problem. If you haven't figured it out yet, unplug the antenna from the STB, unplug the AC, plug the AC back in, turn it on and change the box to another channel, attach the antenna again. You should be back in business.

If you figure out the work around for 34, please let me know. I've tried several things to no avail.

K

Actually, I've found that I can just unplug the antenna, leave it for ~10 seconds and it goes back to the "No Signal" screen saver, and then I can change the channel, plug the antenna back in and I'm in business. It's easier on my setup than trying to unplug the AC as well.

Eric

Well, no joy.

I borrowed Leonards CM3021 (Thank you again) and I can get one or the other, but not downtown and lookout at the same time. Aaaaargh! I'm not sure, I want to go rotor, or run more cable and a A/B switch for one channel. But, I probably will.

Originally posted by squidboy
I can just unplug the antenna, leave it for ~10 seconds

squid, does your Sammy go into a rebooting loop when you try to access 2-1? I have been unplugging mine, then pulling the antenna input, and then repowering. I've not yet tried just popping the antenna, and letting it 'find itself'. I'll try that, thanks for the tip.

FWIW, guide data still reads 'Regular Schedule'.

Still waiting, albiet not as patient as yesterday, but i'm trying...:(

Originally posted by santellavision
Well, no joy.

I borrowed Leonards CM3021 (Thank you again) and I can get one or the other, but not downtown and lookout at the same time. Aaaaargh! I'm not sure, I want to go rotor, or run more cable and a A/B switch for one channel. But, I probably will. Have you tried to pick up KWGN-DT with a small antenna in the same room as the TV?

Well, I got back from New York and tried my SIR T-150 on KWGN. I don't get the boot problem (as of 9:15 Thursday Evening), but I don't get a picture either. Best signal strength of any signal I get, but no picture or sound, and the Sammy 150 tells me "No Signal" on the screen. Which is a little funny given that at the same time, the signal strength shows very good signal strength.


Kerry (GoAvs). What kind of antenna did you get? What stations are you receiving?
I get KWGN (without the picture :)) great with my Yagi pointing toward lookout, but even better with my RS DBT pointing toward downtown. I still can't get KDBI on either one (but I do get analog 12 just fine). Since Al assured us there is no shadowing, I can't figure out what my problem is :)

My Opinion on the UHF/VHF (partially based on reading some posts from FoxEng in the Programming forum) is that it is likely that some of the stations may decide to go low power until the transition is complete and then go back to their VHF channels because of the $$ (electricity -- like in the 10s to 100s of thousands a month I think) required to run the hi power UHF transmissions. As Goef said, KWGN probably is not a good candidate because channel 2 is not supposed to be good for the digital broadcasts, KCNC is questionable, but KRMA, KMGH, KUSA, and KDBI are good candidates. But once the tower goes in, if htey make an investment in a high-power setup, maybe they will just decide to stay with the UHF allocations.

Have you tried to pick up KWGN-DT with a small antenna in the same room as the TV?I ran out of time yesterday. I will try that tomorrow. Today's swamped too.

What also kind of concerns me is that Plan B on Morrison is below the ridge line and there is two big hills in between. If they are as directional, I SOL there too. I may have to get cable for the HD locals. Any word on KMGH on comcast?

A couple of years back KCNC Engineering told me they would not keep channel 4 - their DT signal would stay on Ch 35 (I think I posted this a very long time ago). The reason, I was told, is because of the noise (impulse noise I think) characteristics in this frequency range (the low VHF band includes channels 2 thru 6 which all reside below FM). I suppose practical experience may have shown that this isn't a concern I do not know.

Here are a few other ramblings:

KUSA, KMGH, and KTVD are channels 16, 17, and 19(DT) and 20(TV). I am fairly sure these stations could all use a common antenna. They are all supposed to be building full power facilities in their new LCG home (did they wage the SCARE/JeffCo battle to build a low power setup?). If they do build out their full power digital infrastructures I do not believe it makes financial sense to then abandon it and go back to the lower VHF band (or move up one channel to chanel 20) when NTSC dies. Then again "sense" and KMGH and KUSA don't belong in the same "sense-tence".

KCNC DT is Ch 35. Engineering personnel changes have occured at the station since I was told they intend to stay put on channel 35 so it's possible they could change their mind. However I doubt the engineering reasons I was given have changed so it seems likely (to me) that they will keep CH 35.

FOX is in the UHF band with both DT and TV channels.

KRMA is the question.......they have already stated they do not intend to build out high power facilities because of budget. I'd be willing to place a small wager that they intended to share a common antenna (16, 17, 18, 19, 20) when they were part of the LCG. Since they are moving to Morrison it might very well be that they will re-purpose Ch 6 for DT use after NTSC dies because this might keep their costs to an absolute minimum.

Regardless, it's clear to me that all the DT stations will be in the UHF range at least until NTSC dies. One can get better performance from a UHF antenna versus a UFH/VHF antenna so, to me, it makes sense to get a dedicated UHF only antenna (unless you also want to receive the NTSC channels). One can always add a VHF antenna (using a UHF/VHF combiner) in a couple of years or buy a VHF/UHF antenna at that time (this isn't a huge capital outlay) if necessary.

It will also be possible (one day) to not need an antenna when cable starts carrying all the DT channels....

Originally posted by RonAuger
Actually, Geoff's post is #6000

I hope Don is readng this forum. KWGN-DT is causing my RCA receiver to crash and I have to unplug it to reset it. I haven't tried it yet with "Do not Acquire Off-Air Guides". That will probably help. My newer Sony receiver doesn't seem to have a problem, although it stays mapped to 34-3. The RCA maps to 2-1 but then I don't get a picture or sound on any channel after that, even D*.


Wanted to echo Ron's complaint with KWGN and the RCA receiver. I've had to remove KWGN from my channel lineup to prevent tuner crashes. I'm not going to try tuning in again until I hear from Don or others on the forum that something has changed with the KWGN-DT signal or PSIP settings.

Ernie - I spent some time yesterday afternoon on my roof trying to tweak my antenna so that I could pick up KWGN from the back of it. After about 20 minutes, it became apparent that I was out of luck - no way to get KWGN from the back of my antenna and still keep the lock on the downtown stations. So, I'm stuck with the AB switch with a little antenna in my basement exclusively for KWGN (although my RS doublebowtie also picks up everything else except for KMGH sitting on my tv in my basement).

I picked up the $9 AB switch at ratshack, and it's working just fine. I really wanted to get everything on the one antenna, but it's just not happening for me. Oh well...my wife will just have to live with the antenna on the tv again for the next year or so until everyone's up on the mountain.

I've got an extra DBT antenna if you want to try it out Ernie, and don't have one laying around yourself. :)

My Samsung STB also went back into the infinite reboot, reset guide loop when I tried channel 2-1 last night.

I don't know if the Sammys can do this, but those with RCA DTC100s and F38310 HDTVs can set "Don't Acquire Off-Air Guides" in the "Assistance" menu. That totally ignores all PSIP. Of course that also means no call letters and no remapping, but at least I can tune to 34-3 and not crash my TV!

Has anyone on here tried using an attic antenna? If so, are there any
specific models I should look at and do they work well?
I have been looking at the Channel Master 4228 and have considered
mounting that in the attic along with a pre-amp. has anyone used this
antenna?
I want to avoid a rooftop installation if necessary and don't want a
antenna that is very large and visible or hard to install. Attic
space is very tight though.

That 4228 is a pretty big puppy. You say that space is limited... CM has it measuring 39.5 x 36 inches. It is also very directional.

That said... Is there anybody selling these things locally? In stock?

Thanks

That's something to think about. I don't go in the attic much but have maybe about 3 feet or so top to bottom. I figured it would be easier to install in the attic and turn it if I need to. Are there others that are less directional that may be better for an attic?

For me, I've got to take a snowshovel into the attic... That's why mine is outside. Let the neighbors deal with it... :)

CM's 4221 is 20x36, so it's stll pretty sizeable. Then you get into the yagis. Their smaller one is 20 inches high, but has a 43 inch boom.

I think any good antenna will be pretty directional. So, depending where you're at, you may or may not need to move it back and forth between sites. I do - bummer...

Originally posted by markwco
Has anyone on here tried using an attic antenna? If so, are there any
specific models I should look at and do they work well?


I put the R-Shack $20 yagi UHF in the attic (glazed tile roof) and installed with the R-Shack rotor -- about $40.

Attic is big enough to mount so I got about 220 degree sweep (5 o'clock to 1 o'clock with noon being north) with the rotor, which is fine -- all transmitters are west, sw or nw from my capital hill home. I don't need to rotate easterly at all. I get all current Denver HD stations at "good" signal strength. Installation was quite easy, and attic is just above my HT. No amps needed, just 25 foot coax run to the Sony HD300. Rotor powers at controller, no elec. hookup needed in attic. Cheap experiment; for me it worked great. Good Luck.

Originally posted by markwco
Has anyone on here tried using an attic antenna? If so, are there any
specific models I should look at and do they work well?
I have been looking at the Channel Master 4228 and have considered
mounting that in the attic along with a pre-amp. has anyone used this
antenna?
I want to avoid a rooftop installation if necessary and don't want a
antenna that is very large and visible or hard to install. Attic
space is very tight though.

I am at 112th & Sheridan. If you want to get the digitals channels from down town you may not have much luck form an attic( a lot depends on line of sight and what may be in between). I tried a CM3021 in my attic pointed down town and received not signal at all. Mounted on the south side of the house signals were 60 to 70 on a dish 6000. I have since went to the CM4228 mounted were the CM3021 was mounted the signal increased from 60/70 to 70/80 this includes Fox & KWGN. Still get an occasional breakup. With my 10 year old VHF/UHF antenna mounted in the attic pointed at Lookout I get KWGN at 99% this is even with going through 2 splitters. Fox is around 90. As for channel 7(KMGH) not even a blip.

FYI: I received this message from KWGN engineering earlier today ..... we did not and will not advertise the [DTV] operation until the first of the year. We were overwhelmed with the response on the forum and the input is key to our success. We read the forum daily as part of our troubleshooting procedure. So far the PSIP is the most difficult portion of the whole stream. Apparently the PSIP stream is the main cause for STB problems. I experienced this at home last night on my 8VSB tuner. Great signal strength but no audio or video. The PSIP data gets generated out of house and then is downloaded into our PSIP inserter and into our SMPTE 310 data stream. Each station uses a different method to insert the PSIP and naturally this is a problem that exists across the country. We have been working with the vendor of our PSIP inserter so hopefully this will resolve very soon. In addition, I made some changes to the lip-sync and would like to know if it has improved to the point of "perfect". I think it's real close but please let me know.

Nice FYI, Ron.

I'm hopeful that they'll resolve their PSIP issues soon.

I had just tried the signal again, with the same results. :(

Still waiting to see the WB in HD...

Thank you for the update.

Thanks for the info Ron.

I just wanted to make sure that the KWGN folks don't think that we are complaining. At least I'm not. Sure, I'm a little disappointed that things didn't work right off the bat, but that's the nature of technology. I develop software and know how hard it can be to get everything to work in every environment.

That said, we really do want to help get KWGN broadcasting to everyone as soon as possible. I'm glad they read the forum and listen to our feedback. If there is anything we can do to help, let us know.

Eric

Thanks for working on the lip-sync. It is improved, but the audio still leads by a tad on my Hughes E86 (only watched Reba so far tonight). If it is able to be adjusted more, a tad more would be great. Just as a guesstimate, it is about 80% towards perfect.

Many thanks!

Hey, Tonight I was able to watch Reba on KWGN-DT 34 on my SIR-T150! Looked pretty good. Lip-Sync was off a little. Not too bad but easily noticeable. A few dropped frames, and one pretty long freeze on the broadcast side. Really good news even with the few minor issues. Keep up the good work Don and team! My sammy likes whatever you are doing. It even reads as 2-1. Good Job!

Greg

As of yesterday KMGH DTV is off the air for me. I called and spoke to their engineering department. They said that they are on the air, and that their loop back receiver is showing the station as up.
Is KMGH off the air for anyone that normally gets it? I have a Hughes e86 and SAT520, both show nothing on 17.1 or 7.1 now. I get all of the other DTV stations. I usually get a pretty good signal, now zipo!


KWGN, something funny is happening with the mapping with your station. My SAT520 keeps flipping back and forth from 34.3 to 2.1. on the guide.

KMGH is gone for me to. I though it was weather related on my end.

KWGN is showing up a 34-01 on my Dish 6000 now.

KMGH is gone for me too! :D

Of course, that is not new news. If I had ever seen it, 'that' would be news.

KWGN was running fine at 2-1 for me on my Zenith until Friday night when I noticed it was gone (i.e. 'no signal' on 2-1). When I re-scanned, it had mapped back to 34-3 and is still there for me too.
:confused:

After the mod, I'm getting 16, 32, 34 (PSIP problem though), 35 and 38. I haven't messed around with antenna placement too much yet. DBT is in our garden level family room. Greg (gkanders), thanks again for the DBT.

We live in northwest Erie, near US 287 and Isabelle Road.

Kerry

Originally posted by gkanders
Kerry (GoAvs). What kind of antenna did you get? What stations are you receiving?
I get KWGN (without the picture :)) great with my Yagi pointing toward lookout, but even better with my RS DBT pointing toward downtown. I still can't get KDBI on either one (but I do get analog 12 just fine). Since Al assured us there is no shadowing, I can't figure out what my problem is :)

KUSA announced today that they will be broadcasting the Parade of Lights on Friday 12/5 at 8:00pm live in HDTV. I think this may be the first locally generated live HD broadcast.

I saw that ad too. I wonder I they bought some equipment or are contracting with HDNet to produce the telecast?

KWGN lip-sync was right on the money yesterday. Many thanks for being responsive to our posts and working the problems out.

Originally posted by markwco
Has anyone on here tried using an attic antenna? If so, are there any
specific models I should look at and do they work well?
I have been looking at the Channel Master 4228 and have considered
mounting that in the attic along with a pre-amp. has anyone used this
antenna?
I want to avoid a rooftop installation if necessary and don't want a
antenna that is very large and visible or hard to install. Attic
space is very tight though.

If anyone is interested in purchasing my CM4228 and Amp, I would be willing to sell both. I also have a 4 foot pole to mount it on.

The size of the 4228 is diffently an issue if you have the standard attic opening. I actually had to take it apart (it is actually 2 rectanglular pieces attached together) and put it back together in the attic. My attic is not big enough to move it around very much.

I tried to mount it in my attic, but I had no luck, probably because the antenna is so directional and the signals would have to come through some high voltage transmission lines before they would get to my house.

I have had better luck with some indoor antennas and Comcast.

Anyway, if anyone is interested, just pm me.

Steve

Why does it appear that everyone hates to place antennas outside, on the roof, where they belong?

Lotsa folks have stupid covenants...

BTW, b5lurker - you've got a PM...

Originally posted by ByH2O
Lotsa folks have stupid covenants...

Where have you been? Those restrictions have been struct down years ago. If you own the property there are no restrictions for antennas or satellite dishes, 1 meter or under. There are some rules regarding communal property.

Anyone who tries to pull such a rule on you can be told to go to Hell. Any lawyer will tell them that they haven't got a chance in enforcing it.

Ah, that's what I get for not being in one of ~those~ neighborhoods.

I guess I spend too much time playing around with my own stuff. Not paying attention to those details. I do recall some of the hubbub years back about satellite dishes. But 1 meter won't cover much. My current antenna is 13 feet long!

Learn something new everyday.

Ciao

Originally posted by ByH2O
Ah, that's what I get for not being in one of ~those~ neighborhoods.

I'm not in one of those neighborhoods either. My area is older than commercial satellite technology.

I guess I spend too much time playing around with my own stuff. Not paying attention to those details. I do recall some of the hubbub years back about satellite dishes. But 1 meter won't cover much.

The one meter rule was to cover DBS. Another example of corporation buyout of polititians. I've kept an eye on it because of people I know, like me, who also have C/Ku band dishes.

Anybody getting KMGH (17-1) with a Silver Sensor indoors? I live within 3 miles of the station and can't seem to get it.

We are receiving KMGH 7-1 just fine with the Silver Sensor indoor antenna. Signal strength is around 51 on a Hughes E86 STB. Location Alameda and Garrison in Lakewood

KUSA announced today that they will be broadcasting the Parade of Lights on Friday 12/5 at 8:00pm live in HDTV. I think this may be the first locally generated live HD broadcast.

I saw the commercial also. 9News once again claims that they are leading the way in HDTV. Don't say that 9News.

We shall see if this is an HDNet production. I have to say that it is my opinion that Colorado Studios is leading the way in HDTV with many locally generated live HD broadcasts to this point.

Don

Lip-sync on KWGN off again tonight (after being right-on last night) - watching 'Tarzan' (series) and it's off quite a bit. Very noticable. I am just amazed at how the designers let us all down - it would seem to me that any design involving separate processing paths (audio/video) would have had a sync mechanism inherent in the design (even if the streams were data in packets with ids that were matched up at the end, or in our STBs). Then again, they should have preserved the OAR (16:9 or 4:3) regardles of the receiving equipment (maybe with a flag or something). It just seems like the same problems keep cropping up, and if the designs had been well thought-out, they wouldn't burden the broadcasters and users so much with having to fix everything, everytime just like the last time. I guess I'm showing my age, but the concept of 'standards' and robust designs seems to have been lost, or only minimally applied. Admitedly, this is an OT rant.

Anyway, if you could re-sync the sound again it would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Originally posted by rmaestas
We are receiving KMGH 7-1 just fine with the Silver Sensor indoor antenna. Signal strength is around 51 on a Hughes E86 STB. Location Alameda and Garrison in Lakewood


R U getting KMGH now? I lost my signal on Friday, and it's still gone

Originally posted by Iwanthd
KUSA announced today that they will be broadcasting the Parade of Lights on Friday 12/5 at 8:00pm live in HDTV. I think this may be the first locally generated live HD broadcast.
That's great news. I think the Parade of Lights would be great in HD.

It could be the first locally-generated live HD OTA broadcast. Like donyoop said, HDNet has produced live Avs and Rapids games (including the 7/4 Fireworks Rapids game) several times already. KRMA has produced local (though not live) content for years now. But, yeah, go KUSA, Colorado's HD leader :rolleyes: (Man, even when I try to say something nice, I end up all cynical :()

Update to the KWGN lip-sync issue: Lip sync was perfect during the news on Sunday night, so it appears to be just a HD or network thing.

Originally posted by Greg T
R U getting KMGH now? I lost my signal on Friday, and it's still gone

Yeah it's working. I dont think the prob on Fri lasted very long.

Originally posted by DP1
Yeah it's working. I dont think the prob on Fri lasted very long.


Thank you, I was afraid of that. I guess I need to do some playing when I get home. It's just odd that I would go from a 70% signal to 0% signal, I also have two receivers an E86 and a SAT520, I'm getting all of the other channel's with no change in signal strength.
Someone probably built a new building between me and downtown. With a signal this weak, it's probably a homeless person that setup a tall box. I guess I'll wait around until he moves.

Any users having problems receiving KWGN on a Dish Network 6000 with 8VSB tuner. I have a 6000 that maps KWGN to 34-1 and shows a signal strength of 92% but no audio or video. Anyone else experience the same thing??

I'm getting it alright on 34-1 on both my 6000's w/OTA tuner's at the moment. Theres been alot of remapping back and forth between 34-1 and 2-1 ever since the outset but not a problem at the present time.

Once again, thanks to everyone's response over the weekend!

Addressing the lip-sync issue, a slight change was made on Thursday but no other changes took place over the weekend. It was noted that audio was right on sometimes but off on others?? It is possible that we may be receiving material with an inherent lip-sync issue.

Just to clarify, the network audio path follows a seperate path after being fed from satellite and recorded. It is then re-combined into a router and sent to our encoder and final transmission stream. The two path's is where the delay develops and must be re syncd'. The in-house audio also follows seperate path's in both an analog and eventually digital format and this is where a great deal of delay occurs and must be re-syncd'.

It has been quite a while since there were any "standards" in the broadcast industry and recent years has seen more and more companies entering the broadcast world with little knowledge of the industry and thus difficulty for the broadcasters to incorporate new equipment. With the inception of HD broadcast we find ourselves with a wide range of virtually un-tested gear that we need to make work to provide our viewers with the highest quality possible and with time and patience we will do. In the industry, we liken the HD realm to the incorporation of "color tv" transmission. "Color" did not occur without problems and HD is now seeing the same difficulties that took place in the 60's.

Given time, and thanks to this forum, we will continue to work to achieve the highest quality possible for our viewer's of WB2.

Dave M.
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor

I was thinking of going for the CM4228 but the two things that concern me with it is it's kind of large so I'm not sure if I can mount it in the attic. The other is that it's very directional and I know that may mean turning it a lot. It's a chance I could put it on the roof but even then I know I'd need a rotor and maybe turning it a lot since it's so directional.
Are there any antennas that are less directional but still good and maybe smaller in size and more suitable for an attic.
I still am looking into the possibilities of a rooftop installation. I don't have a chimney though and I'm not sure how hard it would be to mount.

Dave,

Thanks for the reply and info. It seems the in-house paths are synced perfectly, but the other one from sat has audio ahead of the video. Since there is more processing on the video path, I would surmise that is why the video is slightly delayed. If the satellite processing path can be lip-synced without disturbing the in-house paths (perhaps at the time it is being recorded?), that would really help when you get the chance.

It's great to have your HD signal (and a clean, strong one at that) here where no network has gone before (reliably)!

Dave M,
Thanks for the info. We are a vocal bunch but I'm quite sure you have our respect and patience as you continue to work thru your setup difficulties. I'm sure you guys will work out the issues just fine and the fact that you're posting here is pretty solid evidence that you guys are trying hard. To be sure there are a lot of nuances to work thru.

Thanks again for your updates....

----

Markwco,
I don't know about your location but sometimes directional is good. A directional antenna can significantly reduce multipath, a weakness of 8VSB tuners. Smaller Yagis have less directionality but still have somewhat decent gain. RatShack sells UHF Yagis and last time I looked (2 years or so?) you could find specs for them on their website.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Any users having problems receiving KWGN on a Dish Network 6000 with 8VSB tuner. I have a 6000 that maps KWGN to 34-1 and shows a signal strength of 92% but no audio or video. Anyone else experience the same thing??

I had the same problem until I deleted the analog ch. 2 entry in my local channels list. This was suggested earlier in this thread and it worked. I've had no problem since. It still maps to 34-1 on my system.

good luck...

Dave - I also echo Geof's appreciation for your efforts, and also add that my statements regarding standards were with regards to the equipment that is available, and that reflects my understanding of the difficulties you face in getting everything going. Thoughout the country, it seems no station, or network, is spared the pain and agony brought on by DTV, but you guys are doing great at addressing and resolving the issues, and all your work is much appreciated.

Originally posted by markwco
I was thinking of going for the CM4228 but the two things that concern me with it is it's kind of large so I'm not sure if I can mount it in the attic. The other is that it's very directional and I know that may mean turning it a lot. It's a chance I could put it on the roof but even then I know I'd need a rotor and maybe turning it a lot since it's so directional.
Are there any antennas that are less directional but still good and maybe smaller in size and more suitable for an attic.
I still am looking into the possibilities of a rooftop installation. I don't have a chimney though and I'm not sure how hard it would be to mount.
I just got a CM4228 last Friday to go with a Samsung SIR-T151. I live NE of
Boulder, with a direct line of sight to Lookout Mtn. and a view downtown which is obscured by a ridge about 5 miles distant. The CM4228 is very directional. From my house I only have about about 10 degrees of rotation within which I can pick up the downtown stations (KCNC-DT, KUSA-DT, KRMA-DT). With that orientation, I can also get a good signal from the Lookout stations (KWGN-DT and KRMA-DT), although KWGN locks up my receiver (a known problem). I can also get KBDI-DT if I point toward Squaw, but then I can't get the downtown stations. For me, KBDI-DT doesn't add enough value to justify a rotator, since they're not carrying any HD content I can't also get from KRMA-DT.

I can also get KWHD-DT and KTFD-DT in some orientations but don't much care.

I have also tried both indoor and outdoor locations; I get marginal reception from several rooms indoors and I would guess I could just barely make it work in the attic, but I would have to either enlarge the opening or disassemble the antenna and reassemble it in the attic. OTOH, I get very good results from my deck so I think that's where my permanent mount will go.

To net it out, the CM4228 is a very good antenna but your results will depend strongly on individual circumstances.

Originally posted by Geof
I don't know about your location but sometimes directional is good. A directional antenna can significantly reduce multipath, a weakness of 8VSB tuners. Smaller Yagis have less directionality but still have somewhat decent gain. RatShack sells UHF Yagis and last time I looked (2 years or so?) you could find specs for them on their website.

So, Geof. Is it your opinion that antenna for antenna, Bowtie styles tend to be more directional than Yagi style? I havent dont any research on it nor any real experimentation. I have the small RS Bowtie which works good for what it is and a big Yagi that works well also. But it's not a fair comparison because one has so much more gain than the other.

But what if you had antennas of more or less equal gain? Like the biggest in the 2 lines? Channelmaster just refers to both types as being "Large Directional". I just always assumed (and you know what that means) a Yagi would tend to be more directional just cause of it's mere "look" I guess. Not necessarily so from an engineering standpoint?

Here are a couple of views. FWIW...

Yagi (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4248.html)

And

8-Bay (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html)

Dan,
I'm no antenna designer (like jm used to be) so I shouldn't generalize but I do believe the CM4228 is fairly directional. I think this is the case because the bowties sit in front of screen mesh which acts as a ground plane. That antenna also has multiple elements critically spaced to cover the UHF band. The geometry of all that stuff make up the characteristics of the antenna. As you know, Yagi's come in all different sizes. Size does matter in this case cause bigger means more gain - especially in the forward direction. I believe the bigger ones also have more directionality than the smaller units. I would guess that the CM4228 would be more directional than a similar gain Yagi. I feel more comfortable guessing that the CM4228 is more directional than smaller Yagi's, which I why I mentioned smaller ones....


Starkelectronic.com has gain and beamwidth number for various Channelmaster UHF antennas - and it does look like the CM4228 leads the pack in gain and directionality.....too bad polar plots are not readily available (at least that I could find) as this type of graph depicts gain vs direction in one simple to understand chart.

EDIT:
ByH2O Thanks for the urls - they nicely illustrate my ramblings.

I forgot to mention frequency variations - the UHF band is fairly broad so there are performance variations across the band and this too is seen in these plots....

OK, back to KMGH reception with an indoor Silver Sensor...it turns out that I'm about 5 miles directly east of the KMGH tower without any obvious obstructions. Should I be getting it? Is it just a matter of moving the antenna around more? When I "Add DTV" with my Dish Network 6000, should I be setting the channel number at 7 or 17? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Ok, thanks much for the feedback, guys. Guess theres one way to find out which I'll be doing because I went ahead and ordered the big Bowtie last week. Theres so many variable too of course, especially in this town with all the varying power levels, locations and whatnot.

On one hand I could benefit perhaps from any increased gain on 17 (who couldnt) since I have the weird phenomenon goin on where once the leaves drop I lose reliability with that channel. On the other hand with the Yagi, I can get all the channels but 38 from my location even though I'm not pointing at all towards Lookout.. so I could stand to lose 34 and 32 with the one antenna solution if I go with the Bowtie aimed towards downtown. I'm fixin to find out I suppose.

And biker, to try for a lock on KMGH you enter 17 in the Add Dtv setup. You wouldnt be the first guy that lived due east of KMGH that had issues trying to get it even if you lived fairly close by. East and North are brutal for that channel.. West and South have much "better" chances.

Originally posted by markwco
I still am looking into the possibilities of a rooftop installation. I don't have a chimney though and I'm not sure how hard it would be to mount.

Mount it to the side of the house. That it what I did with mine. I even have a rotor on it now. I have complete access to it from the roof, as it is just above roof level. Side mounting kits are available lots of places, including Radio Shack.

Originally posted by Geof

Starkelectronic.com has gain and beamwidth number for various Channelmaster UHF antennas - and it does look like the CM4228 leads the pack in gain and directionality.....too bad polar plots are not readily available (at least that I could find) as this type of graph depicts gain vs direction in one simple to understand chart.
Here is a reference for polar plots on the CM4228
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html

Originally posted by oxothuk
Here is a reference for polar plots on the CM4228
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html Thanks for the link.

It's interesting to note that the Yagi would be (marginally) preferable to the bowtie for KUSA, KMGH and KRMA whereas the bowtie is about 2dB better than the Yagi for KCNC and KWGN. And I agree with the author - the way the Yagi works is PFM (pure _ magic). :p

Personally I wanted to go with the CM4228 bowtie in my attic but I didn't (don't) think it would fit. My reception on KCNC is just barely adequate and 2dB more boost would be a real help.....

I just compared the 3021 (4225-Multi-bow) to the 3023 (4228-Yagi) at my house. The 3023 was a bit more directional than the 3021 array. I also noticed the 3023 brought in a stronger signal than the 3021.

Also to note, both were very touchy. I'd move either one 1" and would gain/lose strength. And both vertical, horizontal and rotationally. The 3021 like to work on it's side, rotated 90 degrees. So, try every position before bolting it down!

Note: No wife jokes please ;)

Originally posted by Geof
Thanks for the link.

It's interesting to note that the Yagi would be (marginally) preferable to the bowtie for KUSA, KMGH and KRMA whereas the bowtie is about 2dB better than the Yagi for KCNC and KWGN. And I agree with the author - the way the Yagi works is PFM (pure _ magic). :p


Yeah that would be just my luck of course. But it does make sense. I get 16 and 18 both at "100" on my Mitsu tuner and "90" on the Dish tuners so it's not like the big Yagi is failing me on those low number channels. But by the graph it also means I cant expect much help on 17 by switching. And any help I might get on the 30's channels (which I could use, particularly on 32 and 34 since I'm aimed away from them thus settling for about 55%) might be nullified if the Bowtie turns out to be more directional. We'll see.

Originally posted by DP1
And any help I might get on the 30's channels (which I could use, particularly on 32 and 34 since I'm aimed away from them thus settling for about 55%) I would gladly trade signal level with you Dan. My best RP signal is KRMA-DT at 38, while KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT are at 80. Now that it is winter, both KCNC-DT and KUSA-DT are not watchable anymore, more often than not.

I hear ya, Ron. That does suck. I dont know why I even bother worrying about 17 since I get the ABC HD feeds from elsewhere anyway. It's just the principle of it I guess because of getting it fine half the year and not as well as I'd like the other half. If it were a case where basically I couldnt ever even sniff it (as is the case with so many folks here) I wouldnt think about it one bit.

Maybe instead of worring about diff antennas when the leaves fall I should just glue a bunch of fake leaf's onto the big Cottonwood trees. ;)

I'm not getting KWGN-DT tonight even though the signal is pegging the scale at 100. I guess I'll have to try some games with my Hughes E86 to see what's up....

I'm real pissed at Channel 7.

I live in Aurora just east of Tower Rd.

Can anyone give me hints about HD for channel 7??

I'm real pissed at Channel 7.
I live in Aurora just east of Tower Rd.
Can anyone give me hints about HD for channel 7?Ahhhhhh. The Newbies!

Just kiddin' rightslot-Welcome to our mess! Channel 7 is super low power from their rooftop and unless you have a fairly line-of-sight to their building downtown, you're pretty much SOL. You might check this thread to see if anybody in your neighborhood can get them.
Denver DTV Reception Data (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587&highlight=denver+data)

Also, click on Denver DTV link at the bottom of my post for lots of Denver DTV info!

No cigar on KWGN-DT. Whatever setting was changed it has screwed up the Hughes E86 (and like) receivers (unless I'm alone with this problem). I am getting a signal of 100 on ch 34 but no picture or sound. If other Hughes/Mits/Toshiba owners are getting this please clue in this clueless idiot.....

Deleting analog 2 from my local list did not help.

Originally posted by rightslot
I'm real pissed at Channel 7.

I live in Aurora just east of Tower Rd.

Can anyone give me hints about HD for channel 7?? Join the crowd.
At least you didn't have to get the letter from their lawyer with lies, lies, and more lies. With luck you'll get MNF sometime in time for the '05 season.

Same here Geof on 34.. neither tuner model is actually decoding it even with good SS.

As of tonight not receiving KWGN either. Using Hughes E86 as well. Signal strength is reading 100, but no picture

No KWGN on my DTC-100 either and I have PSIP turned off.

Maybe they are installing an automatic lip-sync device!

I truly appreciate the sacrifice that all of you have made so that I can now watch KWGN.

That's right, I'm actually picking up the signal, remapped to 2-1, on my Sammy T151.

I haven't made any changes to my setup, so I suggest you other Samsung owners give it a try tonight, before they make more changes tomorrow, to confirm that I haven't started hallucinating.

Right now, 7th Heaven is on, so I'll have to wait until later to give my impressions. I prefer watching SD on my DirecTivo.

Oh yeah, lip-sync is perfect right now.

OK, rub it in...

I completely dumped memory, and rescanned everything.

My 160 will not pull in KWGN. Not remapped to 2-1, or even on 34.

Ah, patience...

I'm trying - I know you guys at KWGN are, too.

Thanks

MNF looks fantastic today and the signal strength seems better too. Happy day!

Talk about rubbing it in ........ :mad:

KWGN is still coming in fine here. One thing that's weird for me is that I can only lock in on the signal once out of every 3 or 4 tries to change to the channel.

I watched a bit of Everwood, and I think the HD picture quality looks great. I agree with others and wish that SD wasn't stretched. As before, lip-sync is still fine.

ByH20, you might want to try changing to 34 a few more times, maybe it will work for you.

Anyway, I'm glad that the KWGN team is working to get things straightened out. Thanks!

P.S. So am I the only one in town who can pick up the signal tonight?

Originally posted by weldon
MNF looks fantastic today and the signal strength seems better too. Happy day!

Still a big old ZERO on signal strength here. Guess everything can't work for me tonight. :p

Am I reading this right?

Am I supposed to get Channel 2 (kwgn) in high def????

No signal lock tonight on KWGN here with my Dish 6000 and a 80's signal.

Originally posted by rightslot
Am I reading this right?

Am I supposed to get Channel 2 (kwgn) in high def???? Yep. That's right. They are the only station broadcasting HD from Lookout (faux-o-vision doesn't count since they know not what HD is).

I'm at work right now.

But I cannot wait to get home and try Channel 2 !!!!!!!!!!

I have dish network. But this is local right?

2-1 right?

Thanks

KWGN-DT is broadcasting on channel 34-1, which should remap to 2-1 on just about every receiver. Best bet is to do a channel scan. Check out the last few pages for different reports on peoples' luck tuning the signal with various receivers.

Originally posted by rightslot
I'm at work right now.

But I cannot wait to get home and try Channel 2 !!!!!!!!!!

I have dish network. But this is local right?

2-1 right?

Thanks You may or may not have luck getting it tonight.....as noted above there are several of us who did get it just fine until this evening. KWGN is tweaking there PSIP stream and whatever they did today seems to have not worked liked they had planned. Undoubtedly they'll get it working though and I'd bet they'll fix this latest problem by tomorrow evening.

Well I feel like a complete idiot. I've been complaining about KMGH being off the air as of last Friday. Thanks to some of the responses I got here, I set out this evening to fix the issue. Went on the roof, checked the antennae, checked my cabling, splitters, etc,.. Then I realized I had added a UHF transmitter that I had bought off of Ebay. Then I realized that the box transmitted on UHF 17. Ooops. Turned the box off, and Wamo MNF.
Thank you everyone for your help.
KWGN, Everwood looked really good tonight no glitches until about 8:55PM when my SAT520 rebooted. I guess it was a PSIP glitch. I've never had this unit reboot before. It rebooted a few time last week when I watched Smallville (Good Show) and Angel.

I received a clean signal all evening on my Samsung 160. I scanned local digital channels and KWGN shows up as 2-1, not 34.

Just to add my data, I had no KWGN video/audio last night on my Echostar 6000. I was getting good signal strength on 34-1. I had already removed analog 2 from the guide.

Mark

I lost KWGN last night as well on both my Dish 6000 and hipix cards. Good, strong signal, no picture or audio. I tried to rescan on my 6000, and the 6000 wouldn't even add it to the channel list.

I wasn't home to see what went on last night, but I just ran a new scan this morning and KWGN is no longer showing at 34-3 on my Zenith, but is now mapped properly again back to 2-1. I sure hope everyone else is getting better results too and thanks again to the folks at KWGN for putting forth the effort to get it right. That's a lot more than 'some' area stations can claim.

I've been on the road the last 4 days so have not had an opportunity to participate, but I'm surprised by the comments on the CM4228's directionality. I usually point mine just W of the ABC building and get all of the channels by doing so. From my location, Lookout is about a 280 azimuth, and RP and ABC are roughly 350. Of course, when I want one show to come in very clearly, I tweak the rotator, but this setup works to get me at least 70% on all of them. I found out that when I have it set to 280, KWGN blasts me at nearly 95%!

FWIW, only one of my neighbors complained about my 2 dishes and 4228 on the roof. I had him over to watch MNF once in HD on the 96" screen, no more complaints! :) Of course now I usually have to start hiding from him on Thursday or Friday so he can't corner me into having him over every Monday night! :D

Antennas are BEAUTIFUL!
http://home.earthlink.net/~tim_schaefer/files/antenna.jpg

If your neighbors don't like them, tell them your going to do THIS! (see jpg)

Originally posted by JMartinko
I wasn't home to see what went on last night, but I just ran a new scan this morning and KWGN is no longer showing at 34-3 on my Zenith, but is now mapped properly again back to 2-1. I sure hope everyone else is getting better results too and thanks again to the folks at KWGN for putting forth the effort to get it right. That's a lot more than 'some' area stations can claim. Let's see...we have -

3 stations that actively work to make things better (and appreciate our feedback):
KRMA, KCNC, KWGN

1 station that ignores most everything and seems to prefer audio and video which is not in sync:
KDVR

1 station who built their setup almost dead last yet claim to "lead the way":
KUSA

1 station yet to broadcast anything:
KTDV

And 1 station that thinks transmitting to their parking lot qualifies them to be a broadcaster:
KMGH

With Thanksgiving upon us I say thanks to KRMA, KCNC, and KWGN. You've shown us the better side of broadcasting. Tis a pity that your fine examples cannot be followed by the other "broadcasters".

Thought you guys might like to see this. My antenna tipped over a couple of weeks ago, but I still receive all the stations (except for KMGH, of course). KRMA breaks up occasionally.

Since I still get such strong signal strength, I haven't been very motivated to climb up on the roof in the cold. Yep, that antenna is pointing straight down at the roof.

Thanks to all for the kind words and everyone's input regarding what is happening within various setups. It appears that more and more people are now watching our signal(or perhaps not able to in some cases) and the input is proving to be a useful tool as we continue to work out issues with the DTV broadcast.

It was interesting to note the various problems last night with the 8VSB tuners on the Hughes and Dish HD receivers. I have been having the same problem with no audio or video but good signal (92%) strength on my Dish 6000 with 8VSB tuner since last Wednesday. It looked like most of the owners of Samsung units had no problems last night or over the weekend, correct? I am not sure we did anything last night to cause the problem with the Hughes/Dish boxes so we will continue to investigate.

I made some changes to the lip-sync yesterday so I would appreciate any input as to whether the change was a positive or negative.

As always, keep those cards and letters coming!!

Thanks!!

Dave M.
KWGN
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor:)

BTW, has anyone else seen the new Comcast commercial where the "former dish salesman" is telling you NOT to buy any DBS products because they don't work.(?) He should know of course because this genius used to sell them! My two favorite parts of the commercial are:

1. They show him installing the DBS dish by duct taping it to a wooden pole in his yard. The pole of course is not even anchored, he is holding it up himself! :confused:

2. When it gets breezy outside he looses the signal (go figure!). He then phones the satellite provider who tells him to wait, the signal will come back shortly. They then show him sitting in front of his TV 3 hours later still watching "snow". :rolleyes: I think his name was Einstein Hawkings.

Based on my own experiences, I have little doubt that this salesman used to work at either BB or CC. For the first time in recorded history however, they actually fired an employee because they realized he was to stupid to even work there! I heard he is now starting his own business. It's going to be a 'service station' where you can bring your plasma TVs in to get the gas changed. He learned how to do this while daydreaming through a training seminar right after he finished sleeping through the DBS training seminar. ;)

Originally posted by Greg T
I've been complaining about KMGH being off the air as of last Friday. Thanks to some of the responses I got here, I set out this evening to fix the issue. Went on the roof, checked the antennae, checked my cabling, splitters, etc,.. Then I realized I had added a UHF transmitter that I had bought off of Ebay. Perhaps KMGH also bought their toy transmitter off of eBay. Maybe you could loans them yours so they could double their ERP. Ah, never mind what was I thinking - 2 times zero is still zero.

Yes Tim, I did see that Comcast ad. Pretty stupid (IMO).

I am getting a HDTV antenna shortly (CM3021) and now likely will put it ouside but am wondering, what is the best way to mount it then so that it's towards the side of the house (I don't have a chimney to mount it on). As well, what is the best way to ground it?
I am hoping to go without a rotor and heard the CM3021 isn't as directional as others (I live in Northglenn as well). Can I get by without getting a rotor and will I still then be able to receive all stations?

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Thanks to all for the kind words and everyone's input regarding what is happening within various setups. It appears that more and more people are now watching our signal(or perhaps not able to in some cases) and the input is proving to be a useful tool as we continue to work out issues with the DTV broadcast.

. . .

As always, keep those cards and letters coming!!

Thanks!!

Dave M.
KWGN
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor:)

Dave -

Yes, my 151 was receiving KWGN starting yesterday afternoon. At times, it takes several seconds (up to 20 or 30) for the picture to be displayed. This is despite getting a strong signal. Nevertheless, I’m ecstatic to be getting WB.

Thank you very much for listening to us Sammy owners and making the necessary changes.
:)

Originally posted by markdl
I lost KWGN last night as well on both my Dish 6000 and hipix cards. Good, strong signal, no picture or audio. I tried to rescan on my 6000, and the 6000 wouldn't even add it to the channel list.

Same here Dish 6000. For the heck of it I tried picking up KBDI. With my antenna the one pointed to lookout mountain it came in right around 95%, 12-1, 12-2 and 12-3. With my CM4228 pointed down town it comes in at 70%. So right now the A/B switch is my solution to switch back and forth.
By the way I have an extra A/B switch that I don't need in case anybody is interested.

As of Tuesday, 4:40pm MST still no KWGN picture or audio on Hughes E86 STB. Lost signal yesterday and it has not come back. Signal strength showing 100. Location is Lakewood around Alameda and Garrison

Originally posted by rmaestas
As of Tuesday, 4:40pm MST still no KWGN picture or audio on Hughes E86 STB. Lost signal yesterday and it has not come back. Signal strength showing 100. Location is Lakewood around Alameda and Garrison Ditto.
No picture here either.
Something must be wrong with KWGN's PSIP stream.
Perhaps KWGN could temporarily try resetting the box back to it's original settings to see if we can get our pictures back. At least that would give a data point.

Same here - great signal (80), but no content on KWGN-DT on my RCA receiver. I have PSIP turned off, so it appears as 34, but no pic. I can't check the Sony for a few more days -- in the process of installing my rack.

Wow!

I finally got home this evening, and rescanned for digital signals.

Lo and behold, I've got KWGN on a Samsung 160!

Great! Thanks KWGN crew!

Now, what's odd...

I have digital 2-1 and digital 2-2. Dig that.

2-1 has 93%-100% signal strength but no pic or sound (can't have EVERYTHING ;) )

2-2 has 93%-100% signal strength and pic and sound are great. Lip synch looks right on, too.

Fab!

Oops, forgot about the guide data... Still shows 'Regular Schedule' on both 2-1, and 2-2.

One more edit... 2-2 appears stretched at KWGN's end.

Just checked 34 with my Dish 6000. Still nothing. Signal is there, but nothing else. I am starting to get worried. No I mean sCAREd. Sorry just can't seem to get them people out of my mind.

Originally posted by ByH2O


I have digital 2-1 and digital 2-2. Dig that.

2-1 has 93%-100% signal strength but no pic or sound (can't have EVERYTHING ;) )

2-2 has 93%-100% signal strength and pic and sound are great. Lip synch looks right on, too.


Ditto here. The channel seems to have been remapped to 2-2, rather than the 2-1 it was on last night. I now get nothing on 2-1.

Eric

KWGN was mapped to 2-2 for me tonight. I haven't had any problems at all on my DTC-100 since they have been broadcasting. Lip-sync looks right on. I don't like the stretch of the 4:3 material either. Great work KWGN!

WB was on 2.2 tonight on my SAT520 tonight. My e86 can no longer lock the signal. I can go under manual test for channel 34 and it gives me 100% signal, but when I scan for it it doesn't show up.

That's odd. E86 and Dish 6000 owners are having problems while others are not. Ron even has PSIP turned OFF in his receiver and has had no luck. I don't know precisely how Ron's receiver works but that evidence strongly suggests PSIP isn't the issue.

Question for KWGN Engineering guru's:
Isn't there some sort of "training signal" (a specific bit pattern?) that receivers use to lock onto and sync up with the ATSC stream? Could there be something in that stream that certain chip-sets (like those used in E86's and Dish 6000's) do not like?

I hear ya, Geof. It's weird. Like on a 6000 when you go onto the Add DTV screen theres a bar graph. Normally it's a red background until you lock on, and then it turns to green. Then theres a line below that named Channel Number that will show the channel number it'd be re-mapped to.

In the case of checking for 34, I'll get great SS yet the bar graph will stay red regardless and say "Not locked" and the channel number below that stays blank.

Thanks Dan. Your experience also suggests there is something in the bit stream that some receivers do not like.

From what I've read here the ONLY folks having issues getting a picture use the following receivers:

Hughes E86 (and similar models from Mitsubishi and Toshiba I trust).
Dish 6000
HiPix
DTC-100
FusionHD II Card

Please post corrections if I have this wrong - I'll update this post as required as this data may be useful to KWGN.

FWIW, I'm on the east side of Parker with a FusionHD II card in my HTPC and an attic-mounted Radio Shack 15-2160.

80% signal strength on KWGN, but no pic or sound as of 8 this morning (11/26).

Brad Waite

Still no picture or sound on my RCA F38310 with a DTC-100 built in. I do not have PSIP on. Signal strength is normal for me at 68 but the TV will say Weak Signal when you just tune to this station. This started for me sometime last weekend when they obviously made a change. Too bad, as we have wanted to sample some of the WB shows that we have never seen. Has anybody actually talked to Don or their engineering people about this?

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Has anybody actually talked to Don or their engineering people about this? KWGN is reading the forum daily so they know about this problem.

Update on my data point - my Hipix worked again last night, but my 6000 displayed exactly the same behavior that Dan noted - 88% SS when I tried to add channel 34 back in, but the 6000 wouldn't lock onto the signal. Definitely a stream issue - something that is completely confusing the 6000.

Good morning all,

I see some interesting feedback from last evening. We have succeeded in appeasing the owners of Samsung STB's but in the process negated the signal to owners of satellite receivers with 8VSB tuners and HiPix cards. Ahh, the life of digital signals, either there or not.

I did make a change to the PSIP flow and intentionally mapped to 2-2 in an effort of experimentation. I need to stress to everyone that this is a testing period for us and a great deal of testing can only be acheived once we are truly in the air. As always, it is through your feedback we can fine tune this system. I would like too inform everyone when we make a change but this would be like cheating on a test. We need to see what happens to the various devices when changes are made.

At this point, we are leaning towards resetting our data stream back to the original configuration we had when we first went on air and starting from scratch. Again, this may affect the Samsung owners by may return the signal to 8VSB receivers, myself included.

Yesterday I was reading forums posted in different states and discovered that every installation fell prey to the same problems we are having and I intend to contact the television stations and see how they handled the problem and if they acheived resolution or simply turned PSIP off.

Please be patient while we work through this and continue to provide feedback on this forum as I read each response.

FYI- no changes will be made during the Thanksgiving holiday so for those who can receive us, thanks for watching and for those that cannot, we will be with you shortly.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor:)

Fair enough Dave M.

FYI: I think several of our forum members have access to their tuners during the day.....if you make a change you could post a message asking if they "can hear you now". It may not be complete feedback from every brand of receiver but it may be helpful for you to get more real-time like feedback.

Back working again on my 6000's and the Hughes clone.

Dave - you might talk to the guys over at KRMA. They were having similar PSIP problems for a long time with the RCA tuners, that I think they finally got resolved. Maybe they can offer better suggestions than we can out here.

We're all very aware that you guys are in the testing period right now, and none of us (at least I think none of us - certainly not the "old-timers" anyway) expected you guys to be perfect out of the gate, considering the problems that ALL of the other stations have had/are still trying to deal with.

The real difference here is that you are talking to us, almost on a daily basis about this, and for that we give thanks. You're communication is well above and beyond what most (with the exception of KRMA and KCNC) of the other stations have done in the past. So, big kudos to you guys for that! We all know that you'll get there and get these problems licked.

Originally posted by Geof
Thanks Dan. Your experience also suggests there is something in the bit stream that some receivers do not like.

From what I've read here the ONLY folks having issues getting a picture use the following receivers:

Hughes E86 (and similar models from Mitsubishi and Toshiba I trust).
Dish 6000
HiPix
DTC-100
FusionHD II Card

Please post corrections if I have this wrong - I'll update this post as required as this data may be useful to KWGN.

My Panasonic TU-DST51 also wasn't able to receive KWGN last night. And while I received the signal originally without problems, today I receive a picture but no sound (this is the same problem my tuner had with KCNC-DT in the past).

--Michael

Originally posted by markdl

We're all very aware that you guys are in the testing period right now, and none of us (at least I think none of us - certainly not the "old-timers" anyway) expected you guys to be perfect out of the gate, considering the problems that ALL of the other stations have had/are still trying to deal with.

The real difference here is that you are talking to us, almost on a daily basis about this, and for that we give thanks. You're communication is well above and beyond what most (with the exception of KRMA and KCNC) of the other stations have done in the past. So, big kudos to you guys for that! We all know that you'll get there and get these problems licked. Yes, absolutely agreed.

Thanks to Dan it looks like KWGN has fixed the Hughes/E86 problem - Are you DTC-100 folks seeing anything? Any Samsung owners "playing" at home today?

Kwgn HD watchers,

Just made some drastic changes and would like some input.

Samsung owners will need to re-map and KWGN will now appear as 34-1 and the singnal will take a little while to re-acquire.

Thanks!

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor

Originally posted by Geof
Yes, absolutely agreed.

Thanks to Dan it looks like KWGN has fixed the Hughes/E86 problem - Are you DTC-100 folks seeing anything? Any Samsung owners "playing" at home today?

I'll be able to check my 151 in about 2 hours.

E*6000 SE of downtown, 88% mapping to 2-01

I removed KWGN from memory on my T151. When switching manually to channel 34, I get remapped to 2-1 & 2-2, but then I get the dreaded reboot loop. :(

We have a Samsung 151 here and do not get the reboot loop. One thing I have found is that when "memorizing channels", 34 may not be recognized but in "add/delete" channels tune to 34 and add to memory.

Try that scenario and let us know.

Thanks!

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor

Dave,

I can confirm that I'm still getting the reboot loop. I tried a few different things. Since you have a T151 there, I'll be a little more specific about what I'm seeing.

I did a channel scan with the antenna unplugged, which seemed to reset everything. I then confirmed that I could pick up a couple of other stations (32 & 35 specifically). I did this by manually switching to the stations with the remote.

Next, I tried changing to 34 manually. Reboot loop.

I tried changing to 34 using the "Add/Delete channels" menu option. Reboot loop.

I tried auto scanning. Reboot loop when it hits 34.

Specifically, when I change to 34, I get the channel number, "34-0", in yellow. (For those of you with other systems, the T151 shows channels in yellow numbers when there is no signal, and white letters when locked on to a station)

My screen then turns Grey, an artifact of my TV when it has no signal. The screen then turns black again (the T151 started sending a signal again). Then I get grey. Then black. Grey. Black. Grey. Black. And so on.

I'm not sure what else to try at this point. I'm home from work today, so if you are interested in some "real-time" debugging, PM me with a number where I can call, and I'll do what I can to help.

I'd be interested to see if GoAvs gets the same results.

Eric

Originally posted by squidboy
Dave,

I can confirm that I'm still getting the reboot loop. I tried a few different things. Since you have a T151 there, I'll be a little more specific about what I'm seeing.

I did a channel scan with the antenna unplugged, which seemed to reset everything. I then confirmed that I could pick up a couple of other stations (32 & 35 specifically). I did this by manually switching to the stations with the remote.

Next, I tried changing to 34 manually. Reboot loop.

I tried changing to 34 using the "Add/Delete channels" menu option. Reboot loop.

I tried auto scanning. Reboot loop when it hits 34.

Specifically, when I change to 34, I get the channel number, "34-0", in yellow. (For those of you with other systems, the T151 shows channels in yellow numbers when there is no signal, and white letters when locked on to a station)

My screen then turns Grey, an artifact of my TV when it has no signal. The screen then turns black again (the T151 started sending a signal again). Then I get grey. Then black. Grey. Black. Grey. Black. And so on.

I'm not sure what else to try at this point. I'm home from work today, so if you are interested in some "real-time" debugging, PM me with a number where I can call, and I'll do what I can to help.

I'd be interested to see if GoAvs gets the same results.

Eric
I also have the SIR-T151. When I first tried to tune 34 last week I got a reboot loop like yours; fix procedure was to (a) disconnect antenna cable, (b) turn receiver on, (c) use the number pad to change to any channel other than 34, (d) reconnect antenna cable.
Yesterday the reboot loop was gone but the autoscan reported "no signal" on 34. After the autoscan, however, 2-1 and 2-2 were in memory. As others have reported, 2-1 had no av signal (but a signal strength of >60) while 2-2 was showing stretched SD, also with a signal strength of >60.

Working OK on my 6000 as 34-01

Well, at this point there will be no further changes to the system until next Monday. I think we are getting a handle on what changes cause which receivers to lock-up. I am still puzzled why some Samsung 151's have problems and others do not.

Thanks for everyone's input this week and together we will work out the bugs.

BTW- everyone happy with the lip-sync. I 've spent alot of time on that one.


Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor

My RCA is working fine. With PSIP turned on and off, KWGN appears as 34-3. Can't try the Sony until this w/e.

Dave
Don't know what the last tweak does, but my Zenith T520 doesn't see your channel at all at the moment. I just ran a scan and lost all of the digital settings (34 and 2-1 and 2-2). Looks like you shut my receiver types off for the weekend.

Edit:
My bad, just ran a re-scan and found you at 34-3 again.

mrvideo is absolutely correct - the 1M limitation is strictly for satellite antennas. For OTA antennas, there is NO size limitation as long as the antenna is for LOCAL reception of LOCAL broadcast TV stations (and there is no distinction whether that is for analog OR digital OTA signals). Read the link in my sig for more information. Tell your HOA to pound sand about your OTA antenna.

Squidboy, GoAvs and other Sammy owners,
it might be helpful to KWGN to post your software rev. so they can compare to theirs.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Squidboy, GoAvs and other Sammy owners,
it might be helpful to KWGN to post your software rev. so they can compare to theirs.

It's a new box for me (got it used). Can anybody save me some time and let me know how to look up the firmware version? The SIR-T151 is a OTA only box, does that make a difference?

I was getting KWGN remapped to 2-2 yesterday. No joy today. Whenever I switch to 34, I get the reboot problem. I can try to let it sit there for a while, but I suspect it'll never tune in.

Hey all,

I live in the Tower Rd. area. Just to the east in Sterling Hills.

Is anyone getting KMGH? How 'bout Channel 2---KWGN??

I have the Zenith HD decoder+ Direct TV

Thanks:mad:

Originally posted by rightslot
Hey all,

I live in the Tower Rd. area. Just to the east in Sterling Hills.

Is anyone getting KMGH? How 'bout Channel 2---KWGN??

I have the Zenith HD decoder+ Direct TV



KMGH is working, but you've got like zero shot at getting it from your location due to the channels stupidly low power. As far as KWGN they're still experimenting with their equipment so some tuners are decoding it and some arent at this point. Maybe a re-scan would get it back if you've had it and lost it.

Originally posted by Geof
Thanks Dan. Your experience also suggests there is something in the bit stream that some receivers do not like.

From what I've read here the ONLY folks having issues getting a picture use the following receivers:

Hughes E86 (and similar models from Mitsubishi and Toshiba I trust).
Dish 6000
HiPix
DTC-100
FusionHD II Card

Please post corrections if I have this wrong - I'll update this post as required as this data may be useful to KWGN.

My Sony HD300 has consistently received KWGN HD, both audio and video, since it went on the air. It has remapped almost daily, though, going from the 2-x to 34-x, with x = 1,2 or 3. Tonight my guide showed it as 2-3, when I selected it went to 34.3. Then upon return to the guide, no more listing for 2-3. This was the first time I'd had the -3 connected to both. Lip sync tonight is fine. Hope this helps.
jkm

Well, count my Samsung 160 as one of the unfortunate.

No longer am I able to receive KWGN.

Any attempt to scan digitals results in a lock, and subsequent reboot upon reaching channel 34.

I have tried just about every conceivable setup. Just ain't gonna happen.

Oh well, I'll be waiting for Monday's updates to see how my Sammy responds.

At least I know there's hope. :)

Originally posted by rightslot
Hey all,

I live in the Tower Rd. area. Just to the east in Sterling Hills.

Is anyone getting KMGH? How 'bout Channel 2---KWGN??

I have the Zenith HD decoder+ Direct TV

Thanks:mad:

I'm straight north of you, near Tower and Colfax. I get a whole lot of nothin from KMGH. Unless some miracle happens, don't count on getting it until the tower is completed in 2005.

You should be able to pick up KWGN fine.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Good morning all,

Yesterday I was reading forums posted in different states and discovered that every installation fell prey to the same problems we are having and I intend to contact the television stations and see how they handled the problem and if they acheived resolution or simply turned PSIP off.


I live in Madison, WI, so why am I reading this thread? It is interesting to read about all of the problems that you guys are having and really happy they aren't happening here.

All of my stations are on the air with DT, except one, the WB affiliate, who are working to be up early next year.

I have a Sammy 165 and have zero problems with reception of any of the five stations in this town. Actually, there is a minor problem. None of the clocks at the stations are locked to NIST :( You might want to give them a call to find out what they are using for PSIP generation.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
BTW- everyone happy with the lip-sync. I 've spent alot of time on that one.


As pointed out by others, why should you even have to worry about lip-sync? Did the ATSC totally screw up and forget about this problem in the spec? You'd think that there would be some kind of frame/timecode that goes along with the video and audio streams, so that when they are joined up at the encoder, the encoder would delay whichever signal is ahead of the other.

I have lip-sync problems with our local (Madison, WI) NBC affiliate, which we've discussed.

You'd think this would be a no brainer. Instead it is a pain-in-the-ass.

Dave M. from KWGN,

I hope you guys don't plan on putting in subchannels, and deviating from the full broadcast 19.3 Megabit/sec bitrate for your HD channel!

Other stations are thinking about it (or are already doing so). This has the effect of lessening the quality of the HD signal (by a lot or a little, but still noticeable). I think I speak for many, many consumers (especially those in satellite and cable land) who would rather have one full bitrate, high quality HD channel than a bunch of subpar crud (we already have that, and its name is standard definition analog TV) .

It saddens me that some network execs. are already busy planning (or doing so as we speak) the dumbing down of HDTV before it's even really hit its stride.

As is, 19.3 Megabits/sec using antiquated MPEG-2 compression is the bare minimum for getting decent picture and sound without macroblocking, loss of fine detail, pixel breakup during fast motion (there is some of that anyway because of the low bitrate allocated for broadcast HD using MPEG-2) , etc. If you watch downrezed HD on a large front projection screen, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about... and it ain't pretty!

Glad to see you're starting to get the ball rolling on HD on the WB and look forward to getting your station as soon as it's at full power. In Fort Collins, it's a lot harder as things stand now (you need a really good line of sight and a powerful UHF antenna). And as it is, we're completely in the digital TV wasteland up here as there is only satellite right now, and many of us can't get a waiver for CBS-HD from Dish because of... the Cheyenne CBS affiliate of all places (!!??), and they aren't even on the air in HD yet!!! Sorry, had to rant. :)

Dan

I have noticed that the sound level of KWGN-DT is much lower than their same sound from D*. So, last night I pulled out my RS sound meter and measured the difference. On my system, there is a 20 db difference is sound level. Since KWGN actually listens to our feedback, maybe they could do something about the sound level.

And, while they are listening, I would MUCH prefer that the normal SD picture NOT be stretched. I really prefer what KCNC and KUSA do using grey side bars.

And, I am getting their picture and sound again with my RCA DTC-100.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
And, while they are listening, I would MUCH prefer that the normal SD picture NOT be stretched. I really prefer what KCNC and KUSA do using grey side bars.

It is possible that their encoder doesn't allow for grey pillar bars, only black.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I have noticed that the sound level of KWGN-DT is much lower than their same sound from D*. So, last night I pulled out my RS sound meter and measured the difference. On my system, there is a 20 db difference is sound level. Since KWGN actually listens to our feedback, maybe they could do something about the sound level.

And, while they are listening, I would MUCH prefer that the normal SD picture NOT be stretched. I really prefer what KCNC and KUSA do using grey side bars.

And, I am getting their picture and sound again with my RCA DTC-100.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. I agree with the sound level.
I also would prefer non-stretched material but it works for me as is.

Ok, I dont get it... Despite reading all the posts about Ch 2! Great signal, but not picture/sound in Castle Rock, on a RCA receiver. Up until this week all was fine, dead now....

They are still testing. They are messing with the PSIP info. When they changed some settings, some receivers that got a pic... then didn't. They will continue to debug on Monday.

thanks!

OK, the planets must be lined up ~just~ right today.

Just finished installing a CM4228 (thanks b5lurker :)). Would you believe - I'm getting KMGH!

Not very strong (go figure) but it is there...

For all two of you who do get KMGH :), I've got a question. When viewing that channel, I get a 'stuttering' picture. The picture is clear, but the whole thing has a slight case of the jitters. I've got marginal signal strength (20%), but didn't have any other stations with the jitters with the old antenna (when they were around 20%). Any ideas? Probably just poor signal strength.

I thought that a digital signal was either 'there' or 'not'.

I did pick up a CM7777 that I'll play with next, but I am fearful of overpowering the other stations.

BTW can the gang enlighten me as to the effect weather has on UHF signals?

Oh yeah, what's up with 17-2? No stretch (although 17-1 appears zoomed), do they transmit HD on that channel too?

Thanks

By the time Monday Night Football rolls around, I probably won't get it...


Happy 'Bird

It sounds like it could also be a 720p vs. 1080i conversion issue. KMGH is 720p and most likely your display is native 1080i. I noticed this on a Mits RPTV I gave to my dad.

Hello, as mentioned before, I have a Sammy T-150. Firmware version 1.8.

Yesterday (Wednesday 11/26 at about 5:30, I tuned in channel 2-1. I was getting a picture and sound.

I turned to channel 38 (12-1) so my daughter could watch Clifford (the big red dog). After Clifford was over, I went to channel 2-1, and got the "No Signal" screen (but, as expected, the signal strength display showed a great signal. So my guess is the last changes before the holiday were made around that time. I tried going to 34 and immediately got 2-1, with the no signal screen.

One other thing I noted. I don't know if the content was 16:9 or 2.35:1 (but I believe it was 2.35:1), but what I was noticing is that some widescreen content that was showing up as compressed vertically. By this I mean its width was still the width of my TV (was not being stretched to be even wider than the screen real estate), but the vertical picture filled about 2/3 of the screen. When I looked at the 480i output from my Sammy, my TV expanded the picture vertically so it looked like it covered the same real estate as a normal 2.35:1 DVD. But on the 1080i output, it was compressed so that the black bars were about 2x the normal size. Anyone else seeing this?

Thanks, Greg

A first hello to everyone. And Happy Thanksgiving.

Living in a second floor condo within close proximity to Republic, I should have some interesting problems to solve, issues to discuss and observations to share with you.

As a start, from my location at 17th Ave & Pearl Street, I receive the following:
16-1 (KUSA-DT NBC) Yes 70% (good PQ & audio, remaps to 9-1)
17-1-2 (KMGH-DT ABC) Yes 60% (good PQ & audio, audio can disappear frequently)
18-1 (KRMA-DT PBS) Yes 75% (Beautiful picture & audio, remaps to 6-1)
32-1 (KDVR-DT FOX) No (0% signal from Lookout Mtn.)
34-1 (KWGN-DT WB) Almost (Frequent signal light activity from Lookout & signal meter spikes of 80%. STB wants to lock in on it but can't quite. Yet.)
35-1 (KCNC-DT CBS) Yes 60% (good PQ & audio with carefully placed antenna.)
38-1 (KBDI-DT PBS) No (0% from Squaw Mtn.)

I will as well post these on the Denver Coverage Map & Data thread.

Wishing everyone a great holiday.

...probably should add that I'm using a Samsung T151 with a RS indoor mplified bowtie.

I am new to this forum and was wondering if anyone can tell me about OTA Antennas. I live near Chenango and Tower rd (Old Fox Hill) development. I want to get as much HD as I can . I have direct tv hd programming but I want to get OTA and need some advice on OTA antennas and what is good for my area. I have a pretty clear view of Denver from my back deck and was wondering what type of OTA antenna to buy and what if any accessories to buy. Thanks in advance for any help given.

Get a ChannelMaster 4228 2-bow antenna and a CM7775 or 7777, depending on whether you care about true VHF analog or not (-5 is UHF only).

Mount on roof facing the stations. The amp connects in-line at the antenna and is powered down where the RG6 feeds into the tuner.

This is as good/powerful a setup as you can ask for.

Look here (www.solidsignal.com) for inventory and great service.

Rgds,

JohnW

Thanks, Ernie.

The programming synopsis indicates that ABC and ESPN are broadcasting 720p. I have no equipment that can verify which signal is being received. Can anyone confirm?

If the 'jitters' from KMGH are from a poor conversion to 1080i, would I not see the same issue on ESPN?

As for KMGH HD content, last night's shows were indicated as HD in the guide and Titan, but were most assuredly not... Any insight there?

Thanks all

Originally posted by ByH2O
Thanks, Ernie.

If the 'jitters' from KMGH are from a poor conversion to 1080i, would I not see the same issue on ESPN?

As for KMGH HD content, last night's shows were indicated as HD in the guide and Titan, but were most assuredly not... Any insight there?

Thanks all

Not sure about the jitter's being a poor conversion artifact. I get KMGH 2. The DTC-100 that I had would have the jitter's often on KMGH. My SAT520 and E86 don't get the jitter's. KMGH didn't pass the shows as HD yesterday. I checked, they probably forgot to record them. They've gotten much better about passing the HD stuff. When I first started watching them about 3 years ago. I'd have to call them every Tuesday night to remind them to hit the switch for NYPD Blue. It was pretty annoying.
KWGN, I don't mind the stretch. If you do decide to Squeeze the image to 4:3 please make sure you don't have black bands between the gray area and the picture. That's what KUSA does, and it causes burn in on our tv's. I watch all of my DirectV programming stretched.

Hi All,
I noticed the Reception thread. I thought it might be helpful for new receptors and the stations if we had a poll of who is getting what. Here is the thread. BTW, The reception map is really good too.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=330994

Was KWGN still experimenting yesterday (Thanksgiving)? During the day, I was again getting no picture/sound on my Dish 6000/8-VSB. In the evening, they were back (on 34-1).

Mark

Hi guys!

I hope you can see your shoes (from all the stuffing you ate)

I have two questions that someone may know about.

1. Has anyone used a TERK anttenna tha looks sorta like a wand?
I'm wondering if it will work for me. (Sterling Hills, east of Tower/Illif)

2. Am I seeing it wrong or is 720 just not as good as 1080 ???

Thanks.

Right,

TERK's are pretty much junk. You really need a Channelmaster or a good RadioShack. You're pretty far out there. Bigger is better when dealing with Low-power signals that we have.

Basically 720p and 1080i are both HD formats (Some say 720p (720x1280) is superior- but that's another debate, including myself). The problem is that 90% of displays have a native resolution or screen size of 1080i (1080x1920 or close to that). What that means is when it receives a 1080i signal, it doesn't have to do much, if any 'Scaling' to your screen size. But, when i receives a 720p signal, your display has to do some scaling (resizing) to fit a 1080i screen. So, if your display doesn't have a really good Scaler in it, you can get digital artifacts in the image (both motion and image quality)

Same with us DLP Projector users. My DLP is native to 720p, so it has to do scaling of almost every source. (Most sources are 1080i, at the moment only KMGH and ESPN-HD are native 720p) But, the good thing is, most high-end PJ's have state-of-the-art Faroujda processors and the scaled image is nearly artifact free.

Hope that helps.

jwehman (or anyone else) --

Get a ChannelMaster 4228 2-bow antenna and a CM7775 or 7777, depending on whether you care about true VHF analog or not (-5 is UHF only).

Is this the same advice you'd give to some one in East Longmont? I live off of Pace just south of ninth. If I got the antenna you mention here, and point it toward Lookout, would I expect to get WB and Fox now, with more to come??

I currently have DirecTV with the Zenith HD receiver (happy with it). Like everyone else, I want ABC, but in the meantime I'd be happy with watching Angel ;)

Also, how do I know where Lookout is (exactly).

Thanks.

Jeff,

Read this thread and see if anybody that posted on it, is in your area. It will give you a idea of what you might be able to receive. Also, Lookout Mt is the one with most the towers on it, straight west of Denver.

Denver Reception Info (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587&highlight=denver+data)

Also, you might want to take a look at the Denver DTV link at the bottom of my post. There's tons of good info there too.

What's happening with:

KTVD? Last known effort was they were scrambling to get something on-air. TitanTV shows Match 1, 2004.
I would really like to see ENTERPRISE in HD.

Mt. Morrison District Court hearing, wasn't there one on Nov. 12th?

Lookout Mtn. appeal? Any dates set? Antone heard anything?

Thanx

Hey guys. I just had a quick question. I have a set of speakers that I would like to sell locally (I don't want to ship them.) Can I advertise them in this thread, or is that prohibited? Is there a better way for me to target the Denver audience?

Originally posted by Maxximtl
Hey guys. I just had a quick question. I have a set of speakers that I would like to sell locally (I don't want to ship them.) Can I advertise them in this thread, or is that prohibited? Is there a better way for me to target the Denver audience?

I'm pretty sure you can't advertise on this forum.

As for where else, that's something I would like to know too. You can try e-bay, and just state that it is for pickup/local delivery only.

Anyone else have success in another way?

Eric

What kind of speakers? Ebay would be the obvious on I guess, I've also sold locally on

oops wrong button. cont: Audiogon.com. Like squid said just state local sale only when listing.

Thanks for the advice guys. Maybe I'll give audiogon.com a try.

How about an ad in the News/Post. It goes in the paper and is available online.


Phil P.

The News/Post are a ripoff. They charge waaaaay too much for an ad. I wanted to sell an old TV for about $50. They wanted $50 to run the ad for 2 weeks! Hellooooo?

I 've had good luck with AudiogoN too.

Thursday, I had stong signal, but no picture and audio for KWGN on both my 6000 and my Hipix cards.

Today (Saturday) my 6000 is receiving KWGN on 34-1 with good video and audio, although the KWGN-DT PSIP call letters aren't being picked up by my 6000 like they were last week. On my Hipix cards, I'm receiving good video and audio on both 2-1 and on 34-3. Very strange! :)

So, is the KWGN PSIP info turned off until further notice? I get great signal strength, sound and picture, but my Mits receiver (E86 clone) lists it as local digital and has no program guide info. I can't remember if this receiver gets its info from PSIP or DirecTV. Anyone else getting station identification and program guide?

Thanks to Dave (KWGN-DT) for all your hard work. I wish KMGH would follow suit...I guess I won't be watching much ABC until 2005.

The program info on those receivers comes from DirecTv. They havent updated it for that channel yet.

How hard have you tried to receive 17? Not that it might matter how hard you've tried, you still may not get it. But at least by living on the southside you have more of a shot than alot of other folks.

Dave M mentioned that he turned off the 34 to 2.1 mapping...expect further updates on Monday.

I actually was meaning to ask you if you are using an amp Dan. I am at Coalmine and Pierce, sitting up fairly high. I can get around 18 on my Mits box, but that isn't enough to lock a signal. The next step is to move my CM3021 from the attic to a chimney mount to try to get above my neighbor's house. Are there any retailers in the metro area that carry Channel Masters amps, rotors, etc? I don't want to try an online return if a 7775 doesn't help.

Also, thanks for the info on DirecTV. I though it came from them, but I wasn't sure.

Ok, yeah. I would think you could get it then if you went to certain extremes. Phil and I live down south of you on either side of Pierce and we get it, although marginally, with bigger outdoor antenna's.

I dont know that he uses an amp, and I just use one of those indoor type deals from RS thats more to just make up for line loss I think than a true pre-amp up on the mast.

Phil uses a big Yagi and thats what I used also until recently when I swapped it out for the CM 4228 bowtie. Early indications are that it works just a little bit better for me on 17 during this time of year when I otherwise didnt get it quite as reliably as I would have liked. Always comes in fine all summer and then when the leaves fall it gets a little erratic. But I dont have any elevation where I live either.

Not sure where to get a CM amp locally, maybe somebody in the group has one laying around you could try out.

please make sure you don't have black bands

Well, it is disappointing that 35-1 now does black bars.

I otherwise didnt get it quite as reliably as I would have liked.

Well, I can also say I didn't get channel 17 as reliably as I would have liked either, especially the Super Bowl earlier this year. I have to remember Mr. Hummers wrote that the calculated 41 dBu contour of 17 encompasses the community of Denver. This must mean that the signal stops at the city limits here on the north side cuz I don't see it. What I actually believe is that they miscalculated the transmission efficiency of the coat hanger when they apply the 2 kwatt or so.

Let's see, Super Bowl 40 is ABC January 2006 in 26 months. Hmmm, it might be close, I hope they beat my prediction (which I believe was the most pessimistic in the pool) of November 2005 for Lookout DT transmission of LCG stations. Given the denver channel's stellar negotiation record with Comcast, we may not see 17 on Comcast by then either.

Don

Don't confuse the issue with the black bars.

I am all for watching movies and TV shows in their original aspect ratios, even if it means black bars.

If you have a CRT based HDTV just watch a variety of aspect ratios, and have your set calibrated correctly, and you should have even gun wear anyway. Those of you with digital fixed pixel displays (except for plasmas) don't have to worry about burn in.

Dan

From what I see KMGH 7 is now on on 17. Does anyone know when KTVD UPN 20 will start on channel 19? As well, any plans for KPXC 59 or KWHD 46 to go DTV soon?

Originally posted by markwco
From what I see KMGH 7 is now on on 17. Does anyone know when KTVD UPN 20 will start on channel 19? As well, any plans for KPXC 59 or KWHD 46 to go DTV soon?
KWHD (53) is already broadcasting DTV, standard definition only, on channel 46. I can just barely pick it up where I live NE of Boulder. Mr. Ed never looked so good.

Originally posted by donyoop
(which I believe was the most pessimistic in the pool) of November 2005 for Lookout DT transmission of LCG stations. You are the most pessimistic (JMartinko's ranting aside;) )at Nov 12 2005.
The most optimistic is Phil T, for Aug 12 2004 (what's he been smokin' ;) ).Originally posted by markwco
From what I see KMGH 7 is now on on 17. Does anyone know when KTVD UPN 20 will start on channel 19? As well, any plans for KPXC 59 or KWHD 46 to go DTV soon? KMGH-DT is on 17 and may remap to their analog channel, 17-x. They do 720p.

KWHD-DT is on 46 but may remap to their analog channel, 53-x. They only do 480i. They broadcast from a tower in Elizabeth off of lower Hilltop Road.

I'll try to talk to KTVD engineering today to see if they came up with any plans.

Whether or not the digital channels remap to the analog numbers depends on what the stations send in their PSIP tables and what your particular brand/model/generation of receiver does with it.

"The most optimistic is Phil T, for Aug 12 2004 (what's he been smokin' )."

It must of been all of that radiation from the tower hearings. :D

Originally posted by Jeff Keene
jwehman (or anyone else) --



Is this the same advice you'd give to some one in East Longmont? I live off of Pace just south of ninth. If I got the antenna you mention here, and point it toward Lookout, would I expect to get WB and Fox now, with more to come??

I currently have DirecTV with the Zenith HD receiver (happy with it). Like everyone else, I want ABC, but in the meantime I'd be happy with watching Angel ;)

Also, how do I know where Lookout is (exactly).

Thanks.

While on this subject....

I cuurently am using a CM3020 indoors (UHF portion only with preamp) and am wondering if getting a CM4228 would be better. I have plans to move to an outside mount once I figure out where and how. I've posted my reception previously but bascially I get KDVR and KWGN with no problem and KUSA and KCNC rarely using an E* 6000u. My location is just off 119 three miles east of Longmont. Would the 4228 be a better choice?

Originally posted by whtevr77
While on this subject....

I cuurently am using a CM3020 indoors (UHF portion only with preamp) and am wondering if getting a CM4228 would be better. I have plans to move to an outside mount once I figure out where and how. I've posted my reception previously but bascially I get KDVR and KWGN with no problem and KUSA and KCNC rarely using an E* 6000u. My location is just off 119 three miles east of Longmont. Would the 4228 be a better choice?
I would recommend the CM4228. I'm just a few miles south of you (near 75th and Lookout), and I can get good signals on 16,18,32,34,and 35 with my 4228 pointed downtown.

oxothuk, how do you have it mounted?

One and All

Since this is my first posting, I too want to add my thanks for all your feedback and patience. Getting various venders gear to get along is a task in and of itself. Your feedback has help alot.

The PSIP from KWGN is intended to provide a rich EPG and accurate channel mappings. It has been a challenge to provide it without one or another tuner going nuts or some gear inhouse struggling. You might think you'd just plug in the correct data and be done but, even the configuration recommended by the equipment vendor has been seriously lacking. We have had critical non-PSIP issues today and are striving to work thru these issues. All in-house tuners show a stable signal now.

I know some of the 6000 series sets were having a problem with just getting a picture. The one we have access to here is OK with the settings now. We have 2 Samsung 151's here, they both like the stream now. We are not encoding a EPG at this time, we want stable reception by the most set's first. Then we will add more as we go. Please advise if you are having trouble getting our signal now.

For those of you who have been working with Dave M. He is out today.

Again, many thanks for your feedback and patience...

Les J.
KWGN Engineering

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Please advise if you are having trouble getting our signal now.

Perfect picture but still no sound using my Panasonic TU-DST51. As I understand it, this first generation tuner has problems with multiple audio streams (even if some streams are not being used).

I found the following info from Nathan_R in this forum:

Here's Panasonic's reply (from their facility in California):
"Regarding your comment about Panasonic ATSC unit, TU-DST51 not receiving the main audio.

Unfortunately, when this unit was developed, only one audio channel was available. Therefore, this unit is capable of capturing only Audio CH 1. If the broadcaster transmits the main audio program in a different channel, TU-DST51 will only capture CH1, regardless of if it is main audio or not.

TU-DST51 is not capable of capturing the main audio program, unless it is transmitted in audio CH 1."

Nathan_R also stated:

That receiver had a problem for us at Fox5. We used to transmit our Sap Audio on Audio Channel 2 (L&R) When we did this we discovered that that receiver would not decode any audio (Ch 1 or Ch2) as soon as we stopped transmitting SAP the problem went away.

Hopefully this information will be of some help. I do receive normal audio (in stereo, Pro-Logic, DD5.1, etc.) from other OTA and satellite channels. So the problem is not insurmoutable. Good luck.

Michael

Originally posted by zanaberry
Perfect picture but still no sound using my Panasonic TU-DST51. As I understand it, this first generation tuner has problems with multiple audio streams (even if some streams are not being used).

In this case, I'd leave the broadcaster off the hook and go after the tuner manufacturer, requiring them to replace the unit. It obviously does not perform to ATSC spec.

I'm sure they'll argue that when it was produced, it was fine. Ya but... it isn't any longer.

Originally posted by mrvideo
In this case, I'd leave the broadcaster off the hook and go after the tuner manufacturer, requiring them to replace the unit. It obviously does not perform to ATSC spec.

I'm sure they'll argue that when it was produced, it was fine. Ya but... it isn't any longer. All you can do is ask any mfgr to make products conforming to specs at the time of manufacture. If every product had to meet current and future specs the future would NOT be full of new stuff.

I agree this is a significant issue with this tuner and I would sure ask the mfgr about upgrading but I wouldn't be holding my breath.....

Originally posted by whtevr77
oxothuk, how do you have it mounted? My CM 4228 antenna is outdoors about 10 feet off the ground. I have the mast bolted to a deck at the back of my house. I have a single run of about 100 ft. RG-6 straight to the receiver; no amplifier at this time.

Originally posted by Geof
All you can do is ask any mfgr to make products conforming to specs at the time of manufacture. If every product had to meet current and future specs the future would NOT be full of new stuff.

In this particular case, it would appear that the spec was still in flux when the tuner was released. Therefore the manufacturer should take some responsibility.

If you don't ask, you aren't going to get :)

I live in Sterling Hills. Just east of Tower Rd.

I’m thinking about the Channel Master antenna and wondering about neighborhood restraints or covenants.

Any thoughts?
[B]

Any neighbourhood restraints are trumped by the federal government's rules about antennas: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

If you're concerned about your HOA, it might be nice to ask ahead of time, but they can't refuse your right to free TV.

KWGN,
No problems with my Hughes E86 receiver picking up your signal on 34-1.

Originally posted by Geof
KWGN,
No problems with my Hughes E86 receiver picking up your signal on 34-1. No joy with my SIR-T151, still getting the reboot loop. It worked last Monday and Tuesday, but not before or since.

KWGN and Samsung T160

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Samsung owners will need to re-map and KWGN will now appear as 34-1 and the singnal will take a little while to re-acquire.

Hi guys,

Thought I'd give an update.

After the changes last Wednesday (11-26), I have not been able to acquire KWGN-DT on my Sammy 160.

I had it fine with the changes mapping to 2-2 last week, though.

I highlighted the quote from last week, as this may be an issue - if the delayed acquisition issue still exists. The Samsung T160 does not allow for manually adding digital channels (at least not that I have found). The procedure is to scan for digital channels, and add what is found to the list. The process scans each channel for two seconds and moves on. I wonder if it just doesn't see the station within that time period.

As of this evening, I tried scanning for new channels several times, and came up blank. The delay may be why I cannot currently find KWGN-DT with this receiver.

I know you guys are working on this issue, and do appreciate your efforts. It has got to be tough getting things to work with all of the various components in the field.

Thanks

Originally posted by oxothuk
No joy with my SIR-T151, still getting the reboot loop. It worked last Monday and Tuesday, but not before or since.

Same here with my T151. :(

Anyone know how to check firmware version on these Samsung boxes?

No problem here watching KWGN on 34-1 on my 6000 last night, or on my hipix card on 2-1 and 34-3 both.

We haven't heard much news lately on the status of the Morrision replacement tower. Or the LCGII vs. Golden/SCARE lawsuit? It's been too quiet.

Anybody, Anybody... Bueller, Anybody?

KWGN-
I also have the Samsung T 160 STB that will not acquire the new digital signal. When I scan for digital channels, the box reaches ch. 34 and goes into the dreaded reboot loop. If I try to manually select 2-1, I get the same result. The software version I have is 1.00.10

Dave (KWGN) -

As of last night (12/1) I too was getting the reboot on my T151. I'll try again this evening to see if the changes helped me.

Thanks for your efforts.

Kerry

Ken H has posted that the CBS HD game on Sunday is Denver vs. KC at 2:00 pm!

No problems last night with KWGN on my Zenith SAT520 and Hughes e86. Great news about the Denver game on Sunday!

Originally posted by Iwanthd
Ken H has posted that the CBS HD game on Sunday is Denver vs. KC at 2:00 pm! Now all we have to do is hope they play like they belong in HD.....:rolleyes:

KWGN/Samsung 151 issues...

So I find it strange that both the Samsung 151's here at KWGN both have no problem decoding the audio/video stream and some viewers 151's are in a continual reboot loop. I suspect the firmware of the 151's to be the issue.

Samsung 160 issues...
The process of a tuner "finding" a DTV signal is two step. First it must lock to the pilot carrier of the 8VSB signal. Then it must decode the SMPTE 310 stream and validate the transport stream. The frequency that the PSIP data is transmitted in the 310 stream helps determine how fast a tuner can discover a signal. Our refresh rate for those PSIP parameters or more aggressive than those recommended by the vendor. As such, it is probably related to the parameters themselves. As we find the sweet spot as far as the most graceful PSIP settings, the 160 tuners should have no problem aquiring our signal...

....Finally a format to broadcast other than RS170A... pain or no pain... ;-)

Les J
KWGN Engineering

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Our refresh rate for those PSIP parameters or more aggressive than those recommended by the vendor. As such, it is probably related to the parameters themselves. As we find the sweet spot as far as the most graceful PSIP settings, the 160 tuners should have no problem aquiring our signal...


Les J
KWGN Engineering I think you're saying the aggressive refresh rates are likely the cause of the 151 problems - is that right?

Perhaps you can post the firmware versions of your two 151 receivers.....if your receivers have newer firmware then the receivers having problems then that may suggest a course of action.

Can the vendor supply you with names of other customers using his gear....Unless KWGN is the very first customer to use that particular gear it seems very likely that the problems you're encountering have already been solved by some other station (fortunate enough to get on the air sooner by not having to deal with sCARE).

What's the status of the towers and that damned lawsuit? That's the $65,000 question we'd like answered.

Anyone?

Dan

Latest on Morrison:

Nothing new -- everything's moving along as expected. They think they're still on track to be on the air in about a year.

Originally posted by Geof
I think you're saying the aggressive refresh rates are likely the cause of the 151 problems - is that right?

Perhaps you can post the firmware versions of your two 151 receivers.....if your receivers have newer firmware then the receivers having problems then that may suggest a course of action.

Geof & KWGN -

Yes, I agree that firmware needs to be looked at. However, I've been unable to figure out how to see the firmware on my 151. I think I've seen ways to find it on 150s and 160s but not 151s.

Does anyone out there know how to find the firmware on a 151?

Originally posted by GoAvs
Does anyone out there know how to find the firmware on a 151?

Along those lines, I don't see how to display it for the Sammy 165 either.

No, I am not saying the refresh rates impact the 151's. I am saying that the 160's are not finding our signal, but it is not due to slow refresh rates. It is due to the PSIP settings themselves and when we find the best PSIP settings, (which will probably be a compromise ) The 160's will be happy.

It's a PSIP setting that gives the 151's a brain cramp. Not the interval in which those settings are broadcast. Just to muddy the water further...

Thanks for all your input(s)...

Les J
KWGN Engineering

All,

I'm baaaccckkk!

We had a slight problem on Thursday during the morning that was corrected later in the day so all changes that we made on Wednesday still held true over the weekend.

Today we have been working with the vendor of our PSIP generator and actually went back to the original configuration that we started with. We found a few descrepancies and made some changes and at this moment in time I would like all forum readers to respond to the current status of all their receivers. We may actually have found the solution but we need the feedback.

Look forward to hearing from everyone.


Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
No, I am not saying the refresh rates impact the 151's. I am saying that the 160's are not finding our signal, but it is not due to slow refresh rates. It is due to the PSIP settings themselves and when we find the best PSIP settings, (which will probably be a compromise ) The 160's will be happy.

It's a PSIP setting that gives the 151's a brain cramp. Not the interval in which those settings are broadcast. Just to muddy the water further...

Thanks for all your input(s)...

Les J
KWGN Engineering Ah, now I understand Les, Thanks.

Dave:

34-3 working fine on a DTC-100. I do NOT turn on PSIP for any stations as I have seen no benefit to the remapping and the program information has not been there anyway on other stations. The data bar that I saw at the top of the screen on my F38310 was fixed long ago.

As I reported earlier, sound is 20 db lower than your D* SD signal. Lip sync appears to be fixed.

I prefer non stretched SD pictures with grey bars.

Thanks for your efforts! You guys lead the pack in listening to your audience.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
All,

I'm baaaccckkk!

We had a slight problem on Thursday during the morning that was corrected later in the day so all changes that we made on Wednesday still held true over the weekend.

Today we have been working with the vendor of our PSIP generator and actually went back to the original configuration that we started with. We found a few descrepancies and made some changes and at this moment in time I would like all forum readers to respond to the current status of all their receivers. We may actually have found the solution but we need the feedback.

Look forward to hearing from everyone.


Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor

Still rebooting here :(

There is now a page on the Rocky Mountain PBS website that provides the schedule of programs on KRMA-DT Channel 18:

www.rmpbs.org/dtv/schedule.html

Please let us know if you find it helpful. Thanks.

Jim Schoedler
Director of Engineering
Rocky Mountain PBS

Jim, that's fantastic!!! Finally a local PBS schedule that we can rely on! Thanks! Not to mention it looks nice too. :)

Samsung T-150 here. Still cannot get KWGN picture, but can get a strong locked signal. Could get the picture before last Wednesday.

RCA DTC100:
Tunes in fine. Appears as 34-3 and I also see 34-4 with no content on it.
It's odd, but when I bring up the program grid I see 34-1 twice! :confused:

Sony HD200:
Tunes in fine. Appears as 2-1 and no other sub-channel.
It did not appear when I did a channel scan over the w/e but I manually added it today.

KWGN,

My Hughes E86 is receiving your signal fine. It thinks it's channel 34-1.

Seems to tune in faster than before.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Look forward to hearing from everyone.

Well, another Samsung report... T160

Scanned and acquired KWGN (Mapped to 2-1).

Attempt to view station... The dreaded reboot.

Bummer. ;)

First time on this forum. I thought I would chime in on my HD setup. I live @Broadway & Wildcat Reserve, my receiver is the Dish 6000 W both adapters, my antenna is the Zenith Silver Sensor, in the bookcase behind the TV (my wife still doesn't know it's there) I receive all the OTA stations including KMGH with very little break-up. Is this one heck of an antenna or or do I live in a good location?

Little bit of both, jt. It'a a neat little antenna and of all the places to live outside of KMGH's parking lot and still be able to get it, due south (and with a little bit of elevation) like Highlands Ranch is about as good as it gets.

I have another question for the Dish 6000 reciever folks out there.
In the HDTV set up menu there is a place where you can switch between 1080i and 720p, when 1080i is selected ABC & ESPN come in fuzzy and grainey, when 720p is selected the picture is perfect. My question is if I select 720p will CBS, NBC ect ...all the 1080i stations now be seen in 720p.
also,when this switching ocurrs does it happen in the reciever or the TV. (I have a Panasonic that supports 1080i,720p and 480)

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
All,

I'm baaaccckkk!

We had a slight problem on Thursday during the morning that was corrected later in the day so all changes that we made on Wednesday still held true over the weekend.

Today we have been working with the vendor of our PSIP generator and actually went back to the original configuration that we started with. We found a few descrepancies and made some changes and at this moment in time I would like all forum readers to respond to the current status of all their receivers. We may actually have found the solution but we need the feedback.

Look forward to hearing from everyone.


Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor

Dave -

As of 6:15 tonight (12/2), my 151 reboots on KWGN :(

Originally posted by jtkara
I have another question for the Dish 6000 reciever folks out there.
In the HDTV set up menu there is a place where you can switch between 1080i and 720p, when 1080i is selected ABC & ESPN come in fuzzy and grainey, when 720p is selected the picture is perfect. My question is if I select 720p will CBS, NBC ect ...all the 1080i stations now be seen in 720p.
also,when this switching ocurrs does it happen in the reciever or the TV. (I have a Panasonic that supports 1080i,720p and 480)

When you say they look "fuzzy and grainy" on those channels that are 720p from the source, is it almost like a zippering effect..kinda like jagged and blurred edges? If so thats a known issue that can be cleared up by going into the HD Setup menu on the 6000 when viewing one of those channels and using the Adjust tab. Move the picture to the right or left a few clicks and it will line everything up properly.

It's a one time adjustment that has something to do with the box converting 720p to 1080i. Thast the first thing I'd check.

Dan, thank you very much your suggestion cleared up the problem

jt

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
I would like all forum readers to respond to the current status of all their receivers.

My Mits SR-HD5 is receiving you perfectly on 34-1. DirecTV still hasn't caught on to the fact that you exist though. Can't wait to see if it comes in on the Dish Network 921 that will hopefully be here soon...

Originally posted by KWGN-DT

I would like all forum readers to respond to the current status of all their receivers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I am using a MYHD-120 Reciever and have never had an issue (except Thurs AM when something happened at your end). I was mapping to 2-1 but now it's sitting at 34. No biggie - either way is fine. I get a signal strength of about 75% (which is almost pegged on my system).


Rgds,

JohnW

Later last evening, (after 8:00pm), my Samsung T-150 got KWGN fine, remapped to 2-1.

My 6000 now maps KWGN to 2-1 again, and I still receive it on both 2-1 and 34-3 on my hipix card.

Good Morning All !!

After yesterday's tweaking I am happy to report the following receiver's as working correctly:

Dish 6000
HiPix
Samsung T151(ours), T150
HD-120
Mits SR-HD5
Hughes E86
RCA DTC-100
Sony HD200
Zenith SAT520

We found some mistakes in our configuration supplied by the vendor of our PSIP generator and corrected the errors. I still cannot explain why some Samsung units work while others do not but both of our units are receiving WB2 along with an EPG(electronic program guide) as is our Ketch DVM100. I plan on contacting Samsung directly but I am afraid they may provide the same info as they provided the vendor of our PSIP generator. I can say that our Samsung was manufactured in Nov 2002 and has SVC Model- version-1(whatever that means). I opened our units and neither one states the firmware version so I am very curious how people are able to get the firmware version on their units. I will persue this further and we will continue to try and make all units capable of receiving WB2 programming.

I boosted the audio about 10dB yesterday as well so please provide some feedback as far as that is concerned. Also, no one mentioned if they were receiving EPG so feedback on that would also be appreciated.

I will continue to monitor this forum as it has provided us with valuable feedback from our viewers and for that we THANK YOU!!

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor:cool:

Thanks for the update Dave.

What is your thinking with regards to aspect ratio? I know there have been mixed messages in this thread but I think the majority would prefer no stretching.....

Oh, and should our receivers be remapping 34 to 2-1? How do you have this setup?

Thanks for keeping us up to date Dave. I'd comment on the EPG, but neither the 6000 nor the hipix can receive the PSIP EPG data. Oh well...

I agree with Geof - I really prefer no stretch. Gray side bars are fine, although I can add them with my receiver if the side bars are black. I just really dislike stretching,

So, when're you going to invite us all over for a tour of the new facilities? :D

Geof,

It is really an apples and oranges question. Personally, I am quite happy with the "stretched" mode as I do not like seeing Gray or Black bars on the side of the screen. Also, this forum is a savy bunch but many people are not and may have difficulty going into a menu and changing the aspect ratio. If the content is in the same ratio all the time it negates the need for this. In time there will be more and more programming in the true AR so for me I can live with it and I hope everyone else can as well. In addition, I think the way our upconverter handles the conversion it is pretty decent.

As far as channel mapping goes, we are set as 2-1 through our encoder and PSIP generator but it is also set as program 3 in the SMPTE 310 transport stream(vendor default). Apparently some receivers will map it to 2-1(as it should) while others map to 34-1 or 34-3. This is obviously an example of how each receiver handles PSIP. There are some good websites that explain just what PSIP is and how much it impacts the digital transport stream.

www.trivenidigital.com
www.atsc.org

Hope this was useful.

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2

Originally posted by Geof
Thanks for the update Dave.

What is your thinking with regards to aspect ratio? I know there have been mixed messages in this thread but I think the majority would prefer no stretching.....

Oh, and should our receivers be remapping 34 to 2-1? How do you have this setup?
Another vote for non-stretched (grey bars preferable to black) 4:3 content.

As to the remapping, the way I understand the PSIP spec, all digital channels utilizing PSIP are supposed to include their analog channel number in the stream so that digital receivers will remap the digital channel (which people shouldn't even have to be aware of) to a virtual channel off of their analog number. That didn't come out very elegantly. I think WB is doing it right.

Unfortunately, my Samsung 160 still isn't happy with the KWGN signal. :(

No EPG, and the dreaded reboot.

Oh, software version of my receiver is 1.0.10

Since it had been asked earlier... Obtained by "Menu, Setup, System, System Information, Software Version"

Can't help with firmware version.

Sorry I don't have better news.

Message for Ron Auger:
Did KTVD eveer get back to you on their digital status?

It's gonna be interesting to see what they are gonna do.

KTVD is still soliciting bids from venders of eqpt and are trying to sort out what they need for a temporary setup (weeding out what add'l stuff vendors are trying to sell them) and making sure that it is reconfigurable for the LCG tower -- they obviously don't want anything spent on eqpt for a temp setup to be throw away. They did not have any definite plans/schedule/dates.

BTW and OT, I went to see "Cat in the Hat" this w/e (don't waste your time unless your kids force you). I noticed Comcast had a commercial before the trailers advertising HDTV and listing the HD channels they supply. I also noticed an ad in the latest Home Theater Mag. that Dish network is selling a 40" HDTV, 811 HD receiver, the Superdish, and installation for $1499. Just thought I'd mention these things to point out that HD is making inroads on mainstream awareness.

My vote in order of preference

1. Stretched (your stretching looks really good on my set better than any other upconvert NTSC I've seen)
2. 4:3 with gray bars (helps out most of us with burnable displays)
3. 4:3 with blackbars.

My SAT520 is back to mapping KWGN at 2.1. I didn't check it on my e86. I only flipped to and from your channel last night, so I can't tell if tell if my reboot problem is back. I like Smallville, so I'll probably spend some time on your channel tonight.

I'm thinking about trying a new STB to see if a newer model OTA tuner offers better sensitivity. My reception of KCNC is very iffy and I am now getting dropouts (damnit). I haven't reliably picked up KRMA in almost a year. KUSA is almost as low as KMGH for me.

The question is how much info are our local broadcasters transmitting on PSIP? My Hughes uses the DirecTv APG so I have never seen real PSIP info. The receiver I'm looking at (LST-3100A) has Guide and Station screens but I trust that would be completely blank unless our broadcasters are transmitting program info. Do they transmit program info? How about time of day? How about call letters?

Originally posted by Geof
I'm thinking about trying a new STB to see if a newer model OTA tuner offers better sensitivity. My reception of KCNC is very iffy and I am now getting dropouts (damnit). I haven't reliably picked up KRMA in almost a year. KUSA is almost as low as KMGH for me.

The question is how much info are our local broadcasters transmitting on PSIP? My Hughes uses the DirecTv APG so I have never seen real PSIP info. The receiver I'm looking at (LST-3100A) has Guide and Station screens but I trust that would be completely blank unless our broadcasters are transmitting program info. Do they transmit program info? How about time of day? How about call letters?
KUSA broadcasts what looks like a complete program guide.
I don't see any program guide information from KCNC, KRMA, KDVR, KTFD, or KWHD.
Last time I looked, the time of day information from KRMA was about 10 minutes off.
Haven't been able to check KWGN yet because of the Samsung reboot problem.

Originally posted by oxothuk
KUSA broadcasts what looks like a complete program guide.
I don't see any program guide information from KCNC, KRMA, KDVR, KTFD, or KWHD.
Last time I looked, the time of day information from KRMA was about 10 minutes off.
Haven't been able to check KWGN yet because of the Samsung reboot problem. Thanks for the info.
Anybody know when KCNC or KRMA might start broadcasting program guide data?
KCNC and KRMA are you reading still??

Exactly what is PSIP?