Hi Dave,

I live in the Sterling Hills area. (Just east of Tower Rd. between Illif and Mississippi)

What do I need to do to get your HiDef??????????

I get KUSA, & KCNC just fine.

Help!

rightslot

Originally posted by rightslot
Exactly what is PSIP?

It stands for Programming & System Information Protocol

PSIP - Basically it's the the encoding system that allows broadcasters to identify themselves, remap their channel numbers and convey up to 16 days of programming information.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
.
.
We found some mistakes in our configuration supplied by the vendor of our PSIP generator and corrected the errors. I still cannot explain why some Samsung units work while others do not but both of our units are receiving WB2 along with an EPG(electronic program guide) as is our Ketch DVM100. I plan on contacting Samsung directly but I am afraid they may provide the same info as they provided the vendor of our PSIP generator. I can say that our Samsung was manufactured in Nov 2002 and has SVC Model- version-1(whatever that means). I opened our units and neither one states the firmware version so I am very curious how people are able to get the firmware version on their units. I will persue this further and we will continue to try and make all units capable of receiving WB2 programming.
.
.
Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor:cool:

Dave -

I'm still getting the reboot. However, I can tell my box is trying to remap to 2-1. My SIR-T151 was manufactured June 2002 and is also "SVC Model- version-1". I'll continue to wait to see if the bugs can get worked out.

Squidboy, is your 151 working on 34?

I got some interesting results with a different STB. I have the Hughes E86 DirecTv receiver. I get 32 and 34 just fine. 35 was okay all summer but it's dicey now. KRMA was good last winter then got un-watchable in the spring and it's still un-watchable. No hope with KUSA or KMGH (I think you guys are kidding me about them being on the air).

This evening I tried a LG Electronics LST-3100A HD STB (8VSB and QAM capable). With this receiver I was able to get watchable KRMA & KUSA signals. KCNC was also better but still had breakups. Interesting (but not what I wanted to see) that KUSA improved enough to be watchable yet KCNC barely improved.

I'll probably return the STB since it didn't resolve my KCNC issue. FWIW, I like some of the features in this STB...for example, it can unstretch the KWGN signal and do all sorts of aspect ratio stuff on any format signal. This unit gets PSIP info for both KWGN and KUSA. Sad to see our other broadcasters are not using PSIP as fully as they could. This info is slick.

My next step will be tweaking the antenna position to see if I can get some signal back. But I am not going to do that until I get a Channel Master 7775 preamp.

Originally posted by markdl
So, when're you going to invite us all over for a tour of the new facilities?

Agreed. I've gotten to see HDNet (twice, even though I've never actually had the chance to watch their channel), but missed the KCNC tour and the Lookout tour, so I still haven't been able to see a local broadcast studio. How about it KWGN?

Originally posted by GoAvs
I'm still getting the reboot. However, I can tell my box is trying to remap to 2-1. My SIR-T151 was manufactured June 2002 and is also "SVC Model- version-1". I'll continue to wait to see if the bugs can get worked out.

Squidboy, is your 151 working on 34?

Nope, no luck here. Mine was manufactured October 2002. It looks like KWGN has the newest box, which may have a newer firmware.

Originally posted by Geof
I got some interesting results with a different STB. I have the Hughes E86 DirecTv receiver. I get 32 and 34 just fine. 35 was okay all summer but it's dicey now. KRMA was good last winter then got un-watchable in the spring and it's still un-watchable. No hope with KUSA or KMGH (I think you guys are kidding me about them being on the air).

This evening I tried a LG Electronics LST-3100A HD STB (8VSB and QAM capable). With this receiver I was able to get watchable KRMA & KUSA signals. KCNC was also better but still had breakups. Interesting (but not what I wanted to see) that KUSA improved enough to be watchable yet KCNC barely improved.


I find all that interesting also since we're kind of the same relative direction from downtown, albeit of course you're well farther south and have the hogback to deal with.

But still, while I dont get KCNC with as strong signal strength as I might expect (55-85 depending on antenna placement), KUSA and KRMA have always pegged my Hughes clone receiver at 100 no matter how much I fiddle with the antenna..as long as it's pointed downtown in general. So it seems weird to me that you wouldnt get those decently if you get KCNC at all.

Originally posted by squidboy
Nope, no luck here. Mine was manufactured October 2002. It looks like KWGN has the newest box, which may have a newer firmware. Ditto, mine also has an October 02 manufacture date and still gets the reboot loop.

Hey Dave, do you wanna trade?

Originally posted by DP1
I find all that interesting also since we're kind of the same relative direction from downtown, albeit of course you're well farther south and have the hogback to deal with.

But still, while I dont get KCNC with as strong signal strength as I might expect (55-85 depending on antenna placement), KUSA and KRMA have always pegged my Hughes clone receiver at 100 no matter how much I fiddle with the antenna..as long as it's pointed downtown in general. So it seems weird to me that you wouldnt get those decently if you get KCNC at all. I don't have line of sight (LOS) so I think I'm picking up a diffracted signal (diffracted by the hogback). The best position for my antenna was to get it as far Westward as I could (I would eventually get LOS if I could go far enough West). When I first played the games with the antenna in the attic I got a pretty decent KRMA signal. Then KCNC started broadcasting and I had to tweak the antenna position to get enough signal for a picture. That degraded the KRMA signal level but both were still watchable. When KUSA started up the signal was even lower but I haven't tried fiddling with the antenna because I could care less about KUSA. One thing I recall is that movements as small as 1/2 inch meant a lot as far as signal strength was concerned. I don't think I'd have these issues if I had LOS (or if the hogback wasn't such a big obstacle).

I don't know if an preamp will help or hurt in this situation. I still get booming signals for KDVR and KWGN (and KTVD) with the antenna pointed downtown and they may overload the preamp. If the preamp doesn't get saturated with those strong signals I think there is a reasonable chance that it will make enough improvement to make all three channels watchable. Time will tell.....

Originally posted by Geof


This evening I tried a LG Electronics LST-3100A HD STB (8VSB and QAM capable).

Geof,
Where did you get the LG STB? I've been looking for it (not too hard yet) to check it out.

And I guess the bigger question to anybody here is, will it receive Comcast's HDTV (which is QAM), or does Comcast scramble their HDTV - QAM signal???

Originally posted by BrianRL
Geof,
Where did you get the LG STB? I've been looking for it (not too hard yet) to check it out.

And I guess the bigger question to anybody here is, will it receive Comcast's HDTV (which is QAM), or does Comcast scramble their HDTV - QAM signal??? I got it at the Big Picture Store. The Quebec store only had one but I think he said the computer shows one other store also has one. They are still hard to find.

This STB should decode Comcast local HD signals. I read one post in the Denver Comcast thread of where someone's TV decoded them just fine (the TV could handle QAM). If Comcast had more local HD I would have put this to the test....but no CBS (which is what I really want) or ABC (MNF) kinda puts a big damper on it for me.

begin rant
I really don't know what the (real) hangup is about getting KCNC-DT and KMGH-DT on Comcast. This is absolutely S-T-U-P-I-D for all parties (IMO). It would give local stations more HD viewers and it would certainly lure more viewers to cable since these two channels are still at very low power. It's a WIN-WIN for BOTH parties. Sometimes I just don't understand the stupidity of things....
/end rant

I'll feel better once the vein pops back into the forehead....:(

Geof, I feel your pain... man.

Thanks Ernie. I know most of us are terribly frustrated with the situation here. Most of the stations are now setup with HD facilities and you'd think they'd be clamoring to get their product out to as many viewers as possible.....buuuuuut noooooooooooooo....they have to hold HD hostage once again for whatever financial gain they think they can squeeze out of Comcast. And I don't for a minute think Comcast is negotiating at break neck speed trying to resolve these problems. Regardless, the HD viewer is once again left hanging because of motives beyond our control. Makes me sick. I just wish I could puke in the right laps.

Sorry once again for thee rant....I got a good nights sleep but I must have gotten out of bed on the wrong side :(

What also scares me is that KRMA is going to move with their low-power X-mitter to the east face of Morrision (Plan B) and I won't be able to get them either. Why am I feeling we are going backward?

I thought every station (including PBS) was suppose to be full-power by now? They're moving and staying low-power... what's up with that?

I think the KRMA situation is related to money (or more precisely due to the lack thereof). They're hanging out there alone picking up (what I imagine to be) far more costs (including rent) than they anticipated when they were part of the LCG. I suspect most viewers will see a significant improvement but if they don't throw a lot of power to the West you could be SOL like you are with KWGN (or did you manage to get a 2nd antenna solution that works?).

I bought Leonards CM3021 as my 2nd antenna & an A/B switch, but haven't got it all hooked up yet. Been busy!

Next is the Dish921. I heard they're shippng any day now! Just what I need... more toys to drive me crazy getting them all to work!

I recently purchased a Samsung HLN507w and just signed up to have the Comcast HD package installed on Dec. 18. I am very much considering this a trial. This might be a can of worms, but is there any new info regarding additional programming? Any movement on the ABC/CBS fronts? I have LOS issues with satellite, so that's out.

I wonder if the KCNC signal has dropped power lately. I find my receiver is MUCH more finicky about the pointing direction of my antenna lately for them too. I used to get them with about ±15 degree slop in either direction, but the last week or so it is more like about ±5 deg. My antenna is not lashed very good and the Boulder winds sometimes mis-point it and I have to re-adjust it. KCNC seems much tougher lately, while KRMA and KUSA still seem to be about the same as usual (i.e. not the equipment?). Just wonder if anyone else noticed this.

Originally posted by JMartinko
I wonder if the KCNC signal has dropped power lately. I find my receiver is MUCH more finicky about the pointing direction of my antenna lately for them too. I used to get them with about ±15 degree slop in either direction, but the last week or so it is more like about ±5 deg. My antenna is not lashed very good and the Boulder winds sometimes mis-point it and I have to re-adjust it. KCNC seems much tougher lately, while KRMA and KUSA still seem to be about the same as usual (i.e. not the equipment?). Just wonder if anyone else noticed this. Well that may explain my KCNC-DT problems of late. I hope it's not because of a Republic Plaza chapter of sCARE.....

It appears that the samsung units manufactured before Nov. 2002 may be problem children so:
OXOTHUK- sorry, no trade

As for a tour, we may plan one for sometime in Spring of next year, currently there is some construction around our area and we have to deal with the Winter weather so it is best to hold off until Spring.

RIGHTSLOT- we need to know what type of HD receiver you are using. As had been posted on this forum, certain Samsung units are having problems but your problem may be antenna orientation as well.

If everyone is happy with the current broadcast of WB2 HD(provided you do not have a Samsung unit with reboot) please let me know.

BTW- I have yet to hear from Samsung as far as the issues with their receivers so it may appear as if the vendor of our PSIP generator was correct when he said they wash their hands of the situation. I'll keep everyone posted if I get feedback.

Thanks!

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
2-1,34-1,34-3 HD

Dave,
KWGN-DT looks great to me on both the RCA and Sony. I watched parts of "Smallville" for the first time last night and it looked FABULOUS! (I'm an "Enterprise" man, myself :) too bad they compete) Since I lived in New Haven and have been to Yale often, I've begun watching Gilmore Girls on Tuesdays and will make that regular viewing. I didn't realize that show was based in New Haven. It also looked awesome and I had no breakups. The audio now seems to be a better level too.

Geof, jm,
We've talked about our seasonal variations in the low-power signal before -- do you think that your KCNC-DT problems are just a winter thing? I think Dan has reported the opposite sometimes -- better in the winter. But mine is usually worse It stays above borderline on more evenings in the summer and stays below borderline more often that not in the winter. Fortunately, KUSA-DT seems to do the opposite (go figure) so I watch more Jay and less Dave now. Since I constantly straddle the "cliff" effect out here, I am very in tune (no pun) with the signal variations. I didn't think the KCNC-DT signal level was any different than my last winter level.

:) Thanks Ron!!
Two things:
1) How do you like the aspect ratio?
2) Are you able to receive EPG on either receiver?

Thanks!!

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
2-1,34-1,34-3 HD:cool:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KWGN-DT
If everyone is happy with the current broadcast of WB2 HD(provided you do not have a Samsung unit with reboot) please let me know.

Dave,

Dish 6000 in Longmont and am very happy. Thanks for all your efforts. I personally don't mind the stretched content and in fact am viewing your news each morning now.

I realize this early to bring up but any plans for Rockies broadcasts next year, HD or wide screen (ala Fox)? Just curious.

Dave,

No problems on my E86 Hughes or the LG Electronics DST-3100A. In fact the LGE Box showed off your PSIP in it's full glory.....congrats to KWGN for getting it up and going. I hope KCNC (in particular) and our other local stations follow suit with good PSIP program data.


Ron,
Hard to tell on the KCNC issue. My reading usually bottomed out around 44 (it probably spent most of the time in the 50's) for the better part of the summer......now it's bouncing between 37-44 with occassional dips to the 20's (which is a problem). I'm picking up a CM7775 preamp from Leonard tomorrow and will climb thru the blown in insulation (always a fun time) to install it and fine tune the antenna position. Maybe my antenna shifted a bit.

Dave -

By now, you know my opinion on the stretching - would much prefer to have the 4x3 stuff not stretched. But, with that said, I think your upconversion looks far superior to any other station in town. Your upconverted picture seems to provide more detail and isn't as soft and washed out as the other stations upconverts. Also, with your +10db sound adjustment yesterday, the audio now is much better as well.

I still have the question, though - why are you a 14.99 MB/s signal, rather than using the entire 19.2 MB/s? Is it because WB national is only using 14.99 MB/s, or are you planning on multicasting another subchannel? (Please say you aren't! :) )

My 6000 and hipix are both happy with your psip settings now.

Dave,
PSIP - Both the RCA and the Sony are not getting any guide info nor call letters, but the Sony does remap to 2-1, the RCA stays as 34-3. The RCA also shows a 34-4 with no signal on it. The RCA does show guide info for KUSA-DT so I know it is working. The Sony gets guide info from D* and copies it over to the OTA DTV channel during a full channel scan, but since I manually added KWGN-DT it didn't do that for 2-1. And it doesn't seem to be picking it up OTA. I'll try another full scan tonight, once with a copy of EPG and once without and see what results.

AR - I am not militant either way but I lean toward showing 4:3 in 4:3. I've suggested to KRMA-DT before that they show their children's and animated programing strectched and everything else in pillar-box but I don't know if that is doable or not -- especially if there is another dreaded switch to be thrown :D. Leave this thread for other parts of the forum and you will find vehement proponents of both camps. My vote; no stretch. All widescreen TVs can do the stretch themselves. Anyone who owns a widescreen TV will know how to do it. If you stretch it, most viewers can not un-do it.

Originally posted by Geof
Hard to tell on the KCNC issue. My reading usually bottomed out around 44 (it probably spent most of the time in the 50's) for the better part of the summer......now it's bouncing between 37-44 with occassional dips to the 20's (which is a problem). I'm picking up a CM7775 preamp from Leonard tomorrow and will climb thru the blown in insulation (always a fun time) to install it and fine tune the antenna position. Maybe my antenna shifted a bit. I checked just now and KCNC-DT is so low (28) I'm getting absolutely nothing. But I also have better signal at night than in the day, so it is very hard to tell if there 's other factors affecting the signal. Could be a bird's nest on KCNC-DTs antenna (anyone for fried eggs?!)

Originally posted by RonAuger
Dave,

My vote; no stretch. All widescreen TVs can do the stretch themselves. Anyone who owns a widescreen TV will know how to do it. If you stretch it, most viewers can not un-do it. Well, err, my TV can't do it....one of those "Locked in Full" sets for 1080i signals. But, that's not to say I vote against maintaining the correct AR for each program. Un stretching is most definitely harder to do.....and although the LGE STB can un-stretch it I wonder if it's linear when all is said and done....if the KWGN unit does a non-linear stretch then I don't think there's anything we could do to shrink it back to make right.

Originally posted by Geof
Well, err, my TV can't do it....one of those "Locked in Full" sets for 1080i signals. Guess I didn't think about my answer well enough. It depends on what format that SD 4:3 content is sent in.

If it is 480i, no doubt anybody's widescreen set can stretch it (that's what I was thinking). That's what KWHD-DT is all the time. I forget it's my set that is adding grey bars, not the station.

If it's 480p, my RCA can't stretch it but the Sony can.

If it's 720p or 1080i, both of my receivers stay AR locked.

So I clarify my vote: 4:3 with no stretch and in 480p (if possible).

Originally posted by RonAuger
Guess I didn't think about my answer well enough. It depends on what format that SD 4:3 content is sent in.

If it is 480i, no doubt anybody's widescreen set can stretch it (that's what I was thinking). That's what KWHD-DT is all the time. I forget it's my set that is adding grey bars, not the station.

If it's 480p, my RCA can't stretch it but the Sony can.

If it's 720p or 1080i, both of my receivers stay AR locked.

So I clarify my vote: 4:3 with no stretch and in 480p (if possible). I'm not picking on your Ron. Honest. However, I think KWGN is doing everything at 1080i......I could be wrong but that's what the fancy LGE box said last evening.....would you prefer 480p over 1080i (for NTSC 4x3 material)?

I believe that most televisions can't stretch 1080i signals, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) most STBs can stretch the 1080i signal, but can't unstretch it.

I wouldn't think that switching between 480p broadcasts and 1080i broadcasts would be viable - the equipment sends out one signal that's not switchable, right?

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
If everyone is happy with the current broadcast of WB2 HD(provided you do not have a Samsung unit with reboot) please let me know.

Dave,

Sorry, I still don't get sound on my Panasonic TU-DST51.

As far as apect ratio goes... I don't like watching stretched material and I can't unstretch an HDTV broadcast.

Michael

My vote is for un-stretched 4:3 material.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
If everyone is happy with the current broadcast of WB2 HD(provided you do not have a Samsung unit with reboot) please let me know.


I'm very happy with it. My receiver (MyHD card in an HTPC) provides a facility for vertically stretching 16:9 material to fit my 4:3 set. When I go into that mode ("full" mode) on your station, proportions are correct and PQ is excellent.

I guess the other alternative is to do what KCNC does; 4:3 material is sent 16:9 with gray boxes on each side. The MyHD card can also deal with that, it has a "zoom" mode that blows up the centered 4:3 picture to fill the 4:3 screen. But it seems like with your method, more information is being sent, which I suspect accounts for the superior PQ I'm getting on KWGN.

Great job.

I guess I wouldn't have any issue with 480p or 1080i as long as the quality is similiar. My STB doesn't do a great 480p to 1080i conversion but I suspect the KWGN unit does the 480i to 1080i pretty well (based on the PQ I see).

I really never play around with my STB AR settings but I don't recall it being able to shrink a 1080i image. I don't think it can stretch a 1080i image either since, by definition, is supposed to be HD which is 16x9. If KWGN puts black (grey/pink/purple, etc) bars on the sides and broadcasts it in 1080i I don't think I could alter that signal. Not having extensive experience with other STB's (I just saw PSIP info for the first time last nite) I wouldn't even have a clue about what other stuff can do. I think 480p would be easier to manipulate and I doubt there would be a significant PQ difference between NTSC material broadcast at 480p vs 1080i hence the question to Ron....

So very close to getting KWGN-DT. The good news is my T-151 hasn't ever gone into reboot. But at this point I'd consider it a small victory if it did. Because the bad news is I've got the signal light blinking wildly on 34 while I'm micro-adjusting the antenna but it won't even lock in long enough to send the STB into reboot, much less give me video & audio. It indeed is a game of inches, millimeters actually.

Geof,
I know your not picking on me - you'r correctly correcting me :) .
Yes I think I would prefer 480p for 4:3 content (if switching at the station is possible). That way I can stretch or not on my end. Some receivers/displays have multiple ways to stretch. Some also have user selectable pillar bar colors. I can then also upconvert to 720p or 1080i depending on my display (and I have both). I know the stations have better upconverters than our eqpt probably does and it might make a slight quality difference, but some displays have to side convert anyway which might reduce that slight quality difference. That makes for scaling at the station and the receivers end. I figure, send what you got. If the source program is 480i send that, 480p send that, etc. I'm probably in the minority here, but hey, this is America. Does anybody know if any of the stations switch their format during the program day?

Mark, now that I think about it, I didn't think any receiver (STB or built-in) could stretch a 1080i or 720p signal. Do you think one of yours does? I think you mean zoom not stretch. What would you be stretching a 16x9 1080i format to? 2.35? I think most, if not all receivers only allow manipulation when the format doesn't match the display. Since 720p and 1080i ar only 16x9, manipulation is only available for 4x3 sets. My doubts are what happens with 480p which can be 4:3 or 16x9 by ATSC definition. I wonder if my receivers would allow AR controls on a 480p 4:3 signal and lock them out on a 480p widescreen signal. I think KDVR is always sending 480p widescreen even when the show is not widescreen.

My vote always goes for 4x3 also. Yeah, some folks can unstretch a stretched image either because they have a box that can do it easily, or in some cases I believe by going into the setup menu or something and telling the box your set is 4x3 even if it isnt. But alot of folks cant unstretch it.

For those that insist on watching everything stretched in general it seems to me that it wouldnt be much hassle for them to just downconvert the 4x3 1080i signal to s-video and then use their own equipments stretch/zoom modes to their hearts content. It would still be the best picture they'd ever get for viewing channel 2 and obviously it's not like it's true HD content that I'm suggesting be downconverted in that case anyway. Sure seems a lot more fair than making some of your brethren watching images with improper geometry that they cant do anything about. Or "forcing" them to have to watch good ol' analog 2.

That said, I dont lose any sleep over it either way because I dont watch many non HD programs anyway. And when I do, like early morning news for example, well, if certain channels screw with the geometry and some dont, I'll just watch one that doesnt. No biggy.

Another vote for unstretched.

The Echostar 6000 can stretch/zoom/partial zoom 1080i material, and it can also overlay grey bars. It seems to remember the aspect ratio settings for 1080i/720p/480p as a category separately from 480i (whether from a digital or analog source).

So, when I switch to KBDI-DT, for example, I have it set to overlay grey bars. When I go to KDVR-DT or KWGN-DT, it remembers "normal" mode for these stations. But I could stretch them if I wanted. Stretching the already stretched KWGN would look odd to say the least.

My preference for 4:3 material, in order:
(1) 4:3 with grey bars
(2) 4:3 with black bars
(3) minor stretch/crop to 14:9, like KDVR-DT does
(4) stretch to 16:9

I actually like the 14:9 (the distortion is barely noticeable to me), but it has the least flexibility for the end user. I guess if you have an expensive plasma and watch 14:9 all the time, burn-in could be an issue and you can't do anything about it.

Mark

I just got the latest City & County Views rag. There used to be at least 5-6 pages of Tower updates and events etc. Not much on Tower info anymore.

But, Al still has a small column. He mentions the removal of KUSA's Radar dome and some inane radio stuff. (See, I'm not crazy, they did add some new radio antennas on a tower near KGWN!)

Oh, he also wrote about a new (S)Care lawsuit against KWGN to have their 1/2 Power county permit rescinded. - Yeah, like that's gonna' happen!

Originally posted by mbuchana
Stretching the already stretched KWGN would look odd to say the least.
That I would like to see! Are you sure you can do that? You can stretch a show that is already in HD?

Yeah, you can do that with a 6000. It doesnt know whether theres embedded black bars in a 4x3 1080i signal, true HD in 16x9 in 1080i signal, or a stretched to fit 16x9 by the broadcaster signal. But regardless you can stretch/zoom it. Which of course is a nice feature that all STB's (and HDTV's for that matter) should have. Whether to get rid of side bars on 4x3 1080i stuff, or top and bottom bars on 2.35:1 HD stuff.

To me it was never much more than an oversight on the designers behalf to exclude it. If you can do it with 480i signals via the tv, why not 1080i? Only because they assumed that everything in 1080i would inherently be HD (thus 16x9) I guess. Bzzzzt...wrong answer!

Originally posted by DP1
Only because they assumed that everything in 1080i would inherently be HD (thus 16x9) I guess. Bzzzzt...wrong answer! Ding! Ding! Maybe it'll be the right answer 5 years down the road!

In my case, 4:3 with black bars works the best, because my Sammy 150 outputs 1080i and 480i all the time. I just switch to a 480i input and let the TV stretch it. I use the "auto" mode, and it doesn't seem to recognize grey bars. This also works well for me when a 480i 16:9 program comes on. This is when you usually see a small picture with letterbox all the way around. My "auto" mode stretches it to fill the full screen.
Surprisingly, this usually looks almost as good as the 1080i input without the stretch.
But I have to agree KWGNs upconvert looks better than anyone elses. Is it linear or non-linear?

Greg

Has anyone seen any RCA VHDC300 VGA to Component transcoder in the Denver Metro. A friend of mine just bought a DTC-100 from Best Buy Park Meadows for $39.
Thank you.

I still vote for NO stretching. I do like black bars better than grey. Also, the sound still needs to come up between 5 and 10 db to be the same as the SD broadcast.

I agree that KWGN has the best PQ on SD than any other station even though it is stretched. Color saturation is superb!

Some ramblings about KWGN's stretched 4:3...

If you really like things stretched, I suspect you should be happy that they do it at their end. None of the 1920 horizontal pixels gets wasted on grey/black bars.

I'm not sure how much difference that makes in practice with an SD source, but as others have noted the KWGN upconvert looks really good. I would still prefer pillarboxed 4:3 or 14:9, though.

I hope whoever designed the sets & lighting for their newsroom has seen it on KWGN's digital channel. It really looks excellent, as do the graphics, and the video is almost noiseless. If it was true 16:9, it would look right at home next to the WB's HD programming.

Most of us up in Fort Collins have never really seen a good picture from KWGN before. Digital changes everything!

And...last but not least...the lip sync seems fine!

Mark

Reminder from posts starting on page 302: Parade of Lights is on tomorrow night starting at 8:00. I suppose it could loosely be called the first HD live program in this market to be locally produced. At least produced by local broadcasters.

We shall see if this is an HDNet production. I have to say that it is my opinion that Colorado Studios is leading the way in HDTV with many locally generated live HD broadcasts to this point.

I do know that a good amount of the equipment they'll use for this is stuff from Colorado Studios. However, KUSA is looking at this as a broadcast that will have some historical value down the road, so they want it to be produced by a staff that is comprised mostly of KUSA employees. About 85% of the technical folks working on it are from 9.

Earlier this week I talked to an Engineer at KUSA, he hinted that they are working on HD news coverage to be available by the spring. Said that he couldn't elaborate, but keep my eyes open this spring.
"The Leader in HDTV"

Originally posted by Greg T

"The Leader in HDTV" Well that part is blatantly wrong. A big fat lie as it were.
That said, I have to give them credit for "leading the way" with PSIP.
I'm still in disbelief that KCNC isn't making use of PSIP.....

Another vote for not stretching the 4x3 from WB2 (or is it WB34?). :)

My vote in order of preference:
1) 4:3 unstreched with black sidebars
2) 4:3 unstretched with gray sidebars
3) stretch to 16:9 (I'll fix it in 480i, no biggie for me). The only stretch I can't fix is 14:9, so I don't watch any station that chooses to do that. I think smaller displays (mine is only 34" direct view) look worse than larger ones when it comes to incorrect OARs, probably because it's less field of view to watch and I become more picky about it. Shrinking the bottom up for news/weather/scores crawl bars is okay, but not all the time.

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2,

Thanks for reading my post Dave. I have the Zenith 520 (made by LG ??)

I cannot get KWGN in HD----at all. And though I'm sure you don't care,... I cannot get Channel 7 either. Pissed. I want to see Smallville in HD !!!!

But thanks for any help at all.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
It appears that the samsung units manufactured before Nov. 2002 may be problem children so:

<snip>

If everyone is happy with the current broadcast of WB2 HD(provided you do not have a Samsung unit with reboot) please let me know.

BTW- I have yet to hear from Samsung as far as the issues with their receivers so it may appear as if the vendor of our PSIP generator was correct when he said they wash their hands of the situation. I'll keep everyone posted if I get feedback.

Thanks!

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
2-1,34-1,34-3 HD

Well, I'm not too sure about build date of my receiver, but the only thing close to a date I can find is the bar code/serial number tag has '20030865' printed on it. Just purchased and installed November 10.

Dave, please remember that whatever setup you guys used when mapped to 2-2 last week DID work on my Samsung 160, as well as other Sammys, I believe. There's gotta be a clue in there somewhere... :)

Still patiently waiting... But this talk of such a great picture does make me wince a bit... :p

And, yes, I am a faithful WB2 News watcher (inserting shameless plug here :D)

Thanks

Originally posted by Geof
Well that part is blatantly wrong. A big fat lie as it were.
That said, I have to give them credit for "leading the way" with PSIP.
I'm still in disbelief that KCNC isn't making use of PSIP.....


I agree, ABC and CBS have all of their prime time film based shows in HD. Albeit, if believing they are the leader gets us even one locally produced HD show a year, I'd say let 'em say it.
To me, the leader will alway be KCNC and KRMA, mostly because they went out of their way to give us the Super Bowl Via HD back in 2001.

I also note that the sound is still low on 2-1.....perhaps another 6dB boost will even things out.

Yes, I heard that as well a couple of weeks ago. It was originally planned for a possible February debut, but I was updated on Tuesday that it would probably be more like spring or early summer. May Sweeps is the tentative target right now. Apparently, they aren't too worried about keeping it hush hush. I think the only thing they're concerned about is announcing it before they know whether or not they can pull it off by spring. Lots of work ahead for them.

Originally posted by rightslot
Dave M.
KWGN/WB2,

Thanks for reading my post Dave. I have the Zenith 520
rightslot
I am getting KWGN just fine mapped to 2-1 here in Boulder on a Zenith 520 pretty much since day one, although the mapping has jumped around. You may need to work on your antenna or cables.

Originally posted by JMartinko
rightslot
I am getting KWGN just fine mapped to 2-1 here in Boulder on a Zenith 520 pretty much since day one, although the mapping has jumped around. You may need to work on your antenna or cables.


Same here via SAT520

Ditto here on the SAT520. Looks Great!!

Rightslot,
You may wish to read the last couple of pages of the Denver Coverage thread. It has some tips for picking up signals.

Boy!!

It's painful to see that so many other areas are getting better air HD.

I think it's a location thing

Yeah, but they'll forget to 'pull-the-switch' like they did last night. Hello Master Control!!! You missed the switch to the HD feed of the "Tracey Morgan Show" at 7:30.

And half of Jay Leno was in SD last night too! I sent this email to kusa@9news.com (kusa@9news.com ) (anyone have Don Perez or Roger Ogden's email?):
Please stop proclaiming yourself the "Leader in HDTV". I watched half of Jay Leno and the Tracy Morgan Show in standard definition last night because your station can't seem to throw a simple switch. Would a leader in HDTV not even bother to monitor the HD signal that is being broadcast? Either stop billing yourself as the "Leader in HDTV" or try to pay more attention to what you are actually broadcasting. Do you think you can make tonights Parade of Lights telecast, that you have advertised as a live HDTV broadcast, actually stay in HD when you return from commercials?

Daily update:

I brought the audio up yesterday but did not save the setting. When a switch occurred the audio defaulted to unity gain. Should be good now.

Response time:

Mark- switching between 480p and 1080i is actually quite simple for us. We are a 480p plant and this source gets upconverted to 1080i. All our HD sources are combined in an HD router. A source is then selected and sent to an encoder and then to a Mux that generates a SMPTE310 transport stream and sent to the transmitter. Pretty simple!!

Michael- there was a reported problem with certain Panasonic units but I do not recall which ones. You may need to contact Panasonic directly.

Mark- the 14.99Mbs you refer to is the video bit rate. There is no definition at which we need to adher to as far as video bit rate is concerned but one thing to keep in mind is the higher the bit rate the more likely the occurrence of digital "pixelation" or picture freeze. Did you notice that I increased the bit rate?? Did you notice any change in picture quality? Probably not as a slight change will not impact most current displays. In the future the bit rate may need to be increased as displays improve and receivers as well.

Geof- our final output is most definitely 1080i. See above response to Mark as a definition of our work flow.

On a personal note: I believe that switching between 4:3 and 16:9 is quite annoying. An attestment to this is our own HD programming. The HD shows are in native 1080i but the commercials are 4:3. I have the ability to switch the display between different AR's but why. I prefer the provider do the work. I think everyone needs to get used to the "visual" format whether stretched or not. When you watch a DVD on an HD display do you prefer 2.35:1 or 1.85:1? I think this is the same thing. I hate having to mask the top and bottom on a 2.35:1 and when you are talking about a 110" screen it becomes important when dealing with an LCD projector. The same would hold true on 4:3 vs. 16:9 with masking done on each side.
Just my thoughts.

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
2-1,34-1,34-3 HD

Dave: Thanks for all the work to get HD going on KWGN.

On the AR, I think we (a lot of us) are going to have to agree to disagree. The other channels, except ESPN, change to a normal 4:3 display when in SD mode. I am used to it and prefer it to the stretch. I am one of few that get KMGH. They do as you do (stretch) on their main HD channel which I get on 17-2. On 17-3, they broadcast their standard SD signal (480i). When we are watching something on ABC that is in SD (admittedly a rare occurence!), we always watch it on 17-3 because the stretch is annoying. My TV converts the 480i to 540p so the picture is pretty good and not stretched.

I am not sure exactly what you are saying about DVDs, but again I much prefer to see a movie as the director shot it. If it was 2.35:1, that is what I want to see with the bars on top and bottom. HBO shows all movies at 1.85:1 thereby cutting off much information on the left and right from many movies. I find that unacceptable. Again, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Michael- there was a reported problem with certain Panasonic units but I do not recall which ones. You may need to contact Panasonic directly.

You may be thinking of the "green sparkle" problem. Panasonic has fixed many boxes with this video problem. Can you give me any other info about the problem you recall?

I don't believe there is a problem with the tuner as it continues to work perfectly with the other OTA stations (and satellite channels sent to it from the DISH 5000 modulator). It also worked when you initially began broadcasting. It doesn't handle poor PSIP data however so, I'm hopeful that by the time you correct the PSIP data for the Samsung units my tuner will also be fixed (fingers crossed).

On a personal note: I believe that switching between 4:3 and 16:9 is quite annoying.

Personally, I find watching a distorted picture to be annoying.

When you watch a DVD on an HD display do you prefer 2.35:1 or 1.85:1? I think this is the same thing. I hate having to mask the top and bottom on a 2.35:1 and when you are talking about a 110" screen it becomes important when dealing with an LCD projector.

I prefer OAR whether 2.35:1 or 1.85:1. I don't have a problem with the "black" space top and bottom or side and side on my LCD projector. Don't fall into the trap of assuming everyone thinks the same way you do.

--Michael

Originally posted by Greg T
Earlier this week I talked to an Engineer at KUSA, he hinted that they are working on HD news coverage to be available by the spring. Said that he couldn't elaborate, but keep my eyes open this spring.
"The Leader in HDTV"

I didn't see this posted but a couple of day ago Dusty Saunders in his column in the Rocky Mountain News mentioned that KUSA was getting a new helicopter. I was surprised to see this quote, "From Ogden's [9News president] perspective, the HDTV coverage is a key ingredient in leasing the new helicopter."

From that I guessed KUSA was be planning HDTV local news broadcasts sooner rather than later. It would be odd to have HDTV shots of traffic but not of the studio.

Here's a link the the RMN article:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/entertainment_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_84_2470672,00.html

I agree with you, Dennis. Because of the satellite systems I have, when coupled with OTA viewing I get a total of 14 Network affiliate stations (not counting PBS) that do 480p and above.

CBS: NYC, Boston, Seattle, Denver.
ABC: Boston, Seattle, Denver
NBC: Boston, Seattle, Denver
Fox: Boston, Seattle, Denver
WB: Denver

Out of all those only 3 manipulate (some form of stretching/zooming) the upconverted 4x3 content. KDVR, KMGH and KWGN. Go figure.

In the pay channel world, as you say, it's only ESPN HD. And thank goodness it's only them because like in the case of HBO and some of their 4x3 shows like Inside the NFL and Boxing that have really nice upconverted PQ, theres no way it would look as nice if it were altered to fill the 16x9 screen. Actually come to think of it it's kind of funny that HBO doesnt do that since they're so anxious to elimnate the top and bottom bars on movies. Why not the side bars then on 4x3? I dont know, but you wont find me complaining about it!

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Mark- the 14.99Mbs you refer to is the video bit rate. There is no definition at which we need to adher to as far as video bit rate is concerned but one thing to keep in mind is the higher the bit rate the more likely the occurrence of digital "pixelation" or picture freeze. Did you notice that I increased the bit rate?? Did you notice any change in picture quality? Probably not as a slight change will not impact most current displays. In the future the bit rate may need to be increased as displays improve and receivers as well.


Dave,

Keeping in mind that I know very little about the inner workings of HD broadcasting (pretty much only what I've learned here and from the various tours we've taken at the different facillities), I'm not sure that I agree with your statement. What I have observed (and continue to observe) is that the higher the bitrate, the better the resulting picture on our side. Case in point, and what I'm drawing my statement from - KCNC broadcasts at 19.2 Mbs. KRMA usually broadcasts at 18.0 Mbs. KUSA broadcasts at 19.0 Mbs (I believe - they are either 19.0 or 19.2). KMGH is broadcasting their HD channel at 12.93 MBs. KMGH's HD picture routinely pixellates, macro-blocks and smears on all types of material, but particularly on sports events, and times when there is fast motion. KCNC's picture is rock solid clear with no pixellation at all. I realize that some of this effect may very well be the 720p to 1080i conversion that my equipment does to display the KMGH image on my 1080i HDTV. But, it also seems to me that the higher the video bitrate, the "better" the picture is going to be.

If your national feed is at 14.99 Mbs, then there's nothing that you should do except pass it through unaltered, as that's the best that is available. If, however, you're getting the national WB transmission at 19 Mbs, and then reencoding to 14.99 Mbs to broadcast, then I would think that would degrade the quality from what it could be.

It's an interesting discussion to me. My hipix cards display what the VBR is for the channel that I'm watching - that's where I'm pulling the numbers from. The 6000, or any other STB that I'm aware of provide access to the VBR.

Ditto what Dennis and Dan said -- I'd rather have proper geometry with pillarboxing. I noticed this morning that KRMA-DT was broadcasting 480i and switches to 1080i for their afternoon HD programming and the PBS Loop. That's better IMO since I can decide to use stretch/zoom/panorama or any other AR mode my receiver offers.

I do admit that the masses will probably desire stretching over pillarboxing, at least until the HDTV receiver becomes ubiquitous. Perhaps offering both is the way to go, each on it's own sub-channel. Isn't that what KMGH-DT does? (I wouldn't know -- I'm not within spitting distance of their station {although sometimes I wish I were :D } )

Yeah, maybe they could offer up a second 4x3 subchannel but it's always hard to advocate multicasting. Maybe so I guess if they were going to otherwise let some bits "go to waste" anyhow. As far as 17, yeah they do that, but on their 4x3 subchannel the PQ on certain programming like college football with it's distant shots is hideous anyway.. making DBS Locals look good. Course on some programming like the news, it's not so bad.

Then again, not alot of what KMGH does looks good. The true HD is ok but their stretching/zooming on the upconverted stuff on 17.1 looks really poor compared to like what KWGN does with stretching/zooming. Part of those issues could be explained I'm sure by the fact that some of KMGH's equipment isnt exactly state of the art anymore. Considering they've been "on air" for like what..4 years now?

I feel dirty.

If KUSA can really get local HD news going next spring, I'll have to switch back to them from KCNC.

I find it odd that at the KUSA tour, their engineer was telling us how local news will never be HD, anywhere in the country, for several years. KCNC has told us it's too much work as well. Will this light a fire under KCNC to maintain their HDTV leadership?

Anyway, kudos to KUSA for being forward-looking (finally). I'm eagerly anticipating the first station to bring us local HD news, whether it's KUSA or KCNC or anyone else.

A couple of those Seattle stations I mentioned do their local news in HD. Not that theres cause for me to watch it unless one tends to figure that stories about another mindless shooting or reports on traffic jams are all about the same. ;)

WRAL (the nation's FIRST HDTV station) here in Raleigh does their local news in HDTV - at least the studio part of it. It shows on their analog transmission as well. Sorry - no DTV tuner here nor a display - but I know they do that.

And yes - it costs a large fortune for them to set that up...

Yeah, I knew about WRAL and the Seattle stations. Should've made that clearer in my post. KUSA's engineer brushed them off when I told him that there were already stations doing local HD news.

Has anyone gotten the Dish 811 yet? If so, how's the OTA tuner compared to the 6000? Anybody getting KMGH that couldn't get it with the 6000? Scott at satelliteguys.us says that with the 811 he has gotten 2 OTA stations he couldn't get before with his 6000.

Dr-mal, you dirty boy you....:)

I have to wonder how KUSA will handle the news. They may start shooting all their pieces in HD but what about non-local clips? Will they up-convert and stretch to maintain a 16x9 AR or will they broadcast everything in it's native AR?

Interesting summary Dan. Seems like Denver is a "stretching mecca". I could sort dismiss this because from what I've observed both KDVR and KMGH are clueless, or careless, or both. KWGN does not strike me that way. That said I hope they are continuing to work on the Panasonic Sound problems and the Samsung reboot problem. I almost get the sense that they have left these festering issues slide for the moment which I think would be a terrible disservice to those viewers (perhaps I'm wrong about that but that is my sense of it at the moment).

As to the AR debate, everyone has their own opinion of it. I suspect KDVR refused to change because their opinion mattered most to them. KMGH evidently broadcasts both, preferring to muck up the quality on each, rather than pick a method and stick with it. It would probably cost them $400K to make a real decision though. As to KWGN, it's clear that Dave prefers the stretched version. And it's clear that they have top shelf equipment doing the AR conversion. I don't know if we can fault them for that - and clearly every station can make their minds up on this - but I suspect KWGN is thinking that most viewers would complain that the signal is not filling the screen. Try as I might I cannot argue against that (and win) because the majority of folks in this country hate LB'ing and I suspect they'll also hate Pillarboxing.

I really think the best solution is to design STB's/TV's that are capable of stretching/un-stretching....then stations can do as they desire and so could each viewer.

Dave M.
Do you know if the stretching is linear? If it's not then we cannot undo it correctly. If it is those with capable equipment could shrink it back to normal.

Originally posted by ByH2O
Dave, please remember that whatever setup you guys used when mapped to 2-2 last week DID work on my Samsung 160, as well as other Sammys, I believe. There's gotta be a clue in there somewhere... :)
That's one clue. Another is that our Sammy's work with all the other DTV stations in Denver. Other stations (e.g. 16, 18, 38) remap their channel id, so that's not it. Channel 9 sends out a full program guide, so that's not it. Channel 38 maps to 3 separate subchannels, so that's not it. And good grief, an October '02 unit shouldn't be written off as ancient already.

Originally posted by Geof
I suspect KWGN is thinking that most viewers would complain that the signal is not filling the screen. Try as I might I cannot argue against that (and win) because the majority of folks in this country hate LB'ing and I suspect they'll also hate Pillarboxing.


That could be but then why havent other stations that show it as 4x3 that have been on air a lot longer either here in Denver with KUSA or KCNC for example, or other stations around the country, tended to knuckle under to a would-be outcry from people wanting to have their screen filled 24/7?

Overall, because of a lack of ability to unstretch a stretched signal, I really think the preference from the end users is to have it unstretched. But when it comes to like KMGH for example, I wouldnt be surprised if that directive might come from some National entity because of all the Network affiliates out there it seems like the ABC ones have more of a propensity to do that sort of manipulation. Or so I've read around AVS anyway. Which perhaps ties in with ESPN HD's decision as well. ABC, ESPN.. more or less related, are they not?

Geof-
It appears as if the upconversion is linear and uses 3D adaptive de-interlacing and interpolation along with advanced motion and edge detection algorithms.

All-
I want to emphasize that my views on AR are strictly my own and do not reflect the views of the station or Tribune Broadcasting as a whole. I think I will keep my views from the forum so they do not get interpreted as station policy.

Still waiting to hear from Samsung regarding STB's.

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2

Geof-
It appears as if the upconversion is linear and uses 3D adaptive de-interlacing and interpolation along with advanced motion and edge detection algorithms.

All-
I want to emphasize that my views on AR are strictly my own and do not reflect the views of the station or Tribune Broadcasting as a whole. I think I will keep my views from the forum so they do not get interpreted as station policy.

Still waiting to hear from Samsung regarding STB's.

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2

Dave,

I believe your views are very beneficial to the forum, as you have the 'insider's view'.

With a quick quantifier - any personal opinions can easily be separated from station policy.

I, for one, appreciate your contributions here, as do many others, I am sure.

Still hoping Samsung will provide the answers...

Thanks

Dave M.,
I'm sorry if I implied your opinion was the official KWGN opinion. After reading my previous post I can see how that could be inferred. That most definitely was NOT my intention. Your opinion and views are most welcome and it is clear that you stated it was your opinion so I apologize if my post was misleading.

To clarify my previous post a bit:
I'm not a fan of multicasting both stretched and un-stretched versions of the same program. I'd rather have the bits dedicated to one high quality picture than two lower quality pictures.

Since KDVR took years (yes years) to resolve <?> a lip-sync issue I don't believe they listened to any viewers (we all noted this problem on countless occasions). It was/is clear (to me) that the only opinions that matter to them are their own.

It looked like the stretching was linear.....that makes it easier for some to shrink it if their equipment allows. I cannot shrink it with my setup but I am not unhappy with the PQ in the least. I think you guys have done a bang up job....many thanks.

I also noted the comment about the studio news room lighting and checked out the 9:00 news. I must say the set and lighting looks really good.


-----


On another front, I tried a CM 7775 preamp and it didn't help (I wasn't really surprised). I ended up readjusting the antenna and was able to get much better signal level on KCNC-DT. The new position (the end of the antenna was rotated by about 1 foot) ruins the KRMA-DT signal and slightly improved the KUSA signal but not enough to lock on a picture. It's really eerie how I can optimize one signal at the expense of others - the sensitivity to antenna position is really amazing.

Many thanks to Leonard for loaning me the preamp to try out.

Let me be the first to say congratulations KUSA. The Parade of Lights in HD looks great!!! :)

I'll second that. It must be COlorado Studios throwing the "switch" -- we haven't gotten stuck in SD upon returning from a commercial yet! :D

I was also very impressed with the parade of lights. Nice job, KUSA!

Dave M. -

I do notice tonight that you have cranked the VBR up to 18.0 Mbs. I watched a little bit of that Jennie Garth sitcom in HD before switching over to the parade of lights tonight, and the PQ was good, but I can't say that it looked better than when you had the VBR set at 14.99 Mbs. The true test would be Angel - the very dark, shadowy fight scenes are where the pixellation usually happens. My guess is that 18 Mbs will provide a better picture than 14.99 Mbs in situations like this. If you're still running @ 18 next Wednesday, I'll let you know. :)

Honestly, I'm still pretty blown away how much better your upconversion looks than anyone else's. Technology must have made a giant leap in the last year or something because yours really is day vs night better.

From what I saw at a friend's house in Denver, it definitely is best to use the FULL 19.3 Megabits/sec data rate for broadcast HD!

Don't drop below the MAX, please!!! No subchannels!!

Dan

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Still waiting to hear from Samsung regarding STB's.

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2

So am I. I called Samsung Thursday and was told they'd call back Friday. The CSR said that according to her computer, there's no firmware upgrade for the T151, but she'd check with a "technician." I asked if there's a way to determine the firmware version and she said she'd have to get back with me on that too. Has anyone else tried calling Samsung, or am I just spinning my wheels?

Will this light a fire under KCNC to maintain their HDTV leadership?

I thought that it was mentioned on the forum here some time back that KCNC already has high def cameras in their news studio. If so, what equipment would be needed to complete the job?

Also, if I remember right, the 10:00 news is the biggest revenue producer for the stations. If HD penetration via comcast exceeds 5% by the end of next year, wouldn't the Nielsen people have to start looking into incorporating the HD segment? It would no longer be in the noise.

The cost of doing HD news ( I'll go ahead and guess the standard pat answer of $400,000 ) would quickly be made up if KUSA could dominate the HD segment of the Nielsen ratings for the news.

I hope KCNC would match KUSA's moves there. Adele is fantastic, but I would hate to break up with Molly. :D

Btw, my vote is for "grey" side bars.

Don

Don,

It would be way more than $400K. I've been looking at buying an HD camera (Panny 720p Vari-cam) for my company. For a pro HD camera and a lens, you're still talking $75K for each field camera. (That's less than the Sony HD cameras which are $85K+ each!)

Then you're looking at editing equipment for the newsroom, studio cameras, studio switchers, HD graphics systems, HD weather graphics systems, many, many more tape machines for master control, HD live trucks, etc. more like $3-4 mil.

Originally posted by GoAvs
So am I. I called Samsung Thursday and was told they'd call back Friday. The CSR said that according to her computer, there's no firmware upgrade for the T151, but she'd check with a "technician." I asked if there's a way to determine the firmware version and she said she'd have to get back with me on that too. Has anyone else tried calling Samsung, or am I just spinning my wheels?

Thought I might spend some time doing searches for previous experiences. Here's what I found at http://pub1.ezboard.com/fdigitaltelevisionhdtvforumviewerfeedback.showMessage?topicI D=14.topic

quote:
OTA Broadcasters running digital use some data called the PSIP. It is where guide info/channel info is broadcast. It is updated by some broadcasters all the time. Others ignore it except for the bare minimum. If you were in an area where the broadcaster updated the information frequently then you were an unhappy camper. The TS-160 was doing a check on this data and if it was different the program went into an infinite loop which caused the audio/video output to not appear. That explains why some people reported no problems while others were seeing it all the time."

Maybe the 151/160 units now detect the infinite loop and reboots? Maybe a clue here - hope it helps.

Mark, that reference actually came from an AVS Forum user. ReesR.

Here is a link HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=1451601#post1451601) .

Been heavily discussed, but I don't know if there is a fix from Samsung. I think they just don't like PSIP inconsistencies. Hopefully they can shed light on just where the Samsungs are seeing problems, so they can be taken care of on the PSIP generation side.

I returned the LGE LST-3100A OTA/QAM HD STB to the big Picture Store (Quebec store) today if anyone is looking for one. The receiver is more sensitive than my Hughes E86 but in the end it was no miracle solution (ie, I didn't all of sudden get KMGH). The unit worked flawlessly on KWGN - there were no PSIP problems.

Originally posted by Geof
I returned the LGE LST-3100A OTA/QAM HD STB to the big Picture Store (Quebec store) today if anyone is looking for one. The receiver is more sensitive than my Hughes E86 but in the end it was no miracle solution (ie, I didn't all of sudden get KMGH). The unit worked flawlessly on KWGN - there were no PSIP problems.


Would this box pick up any HDTV stations off of my basic cable Comcast feed? Or is Comcast's signal scrambled?

Originally posted by Greg T
Would this box pick up any HDTV stations off of my basic cable Comcast feed? Or is Comcast's signal scrambled? It should decode unencrypted HD signals but I did not try it. I'm sure the store will allow you to return it if it does not work out.

Awesome game this afternoon. This is what HDTV was made for!

Originally posted by oxothuk
Awesome game this afternoon. This is what HDTV was made for!
oxothuk - Ditto here too. The final score made it that much better. Now if our Samsungs just worked on KWGN . . .
Originally posted by ByH2O
Been heavily discussed, but I don't know if there is a fix from Samsung. I think they just don't like PSIP inconsistencies. Hopefully they can shed light on just where the Samsungs are seeing problems, so they can be taken care of on the PSIP generation side.
ByH2O - Thanks for the link. It's good reading for those of us new to this stuff. Though, after reading a while, it's clear the owners of D* boxes benefit from direct firmware upgrades (like the T160).

I wonder where else KWGN's PSIP vendor has installs. Are people with Samsungs in those areas having problems too?

I vote for unstretched broadcast. I prefer accuracy with letterbox over distortion.

Dave,
Just a quick data point. On Friday, 12/5 in the afternoon, I was again getting video (and audio) on my Sammy SIR T-150 with Firmware Version 1.8.
Again, I initially was getting lock, but "no signal" on my screen. Then I got video and audio, then the day or so before thanksgiving lost it when you went back to your initial setup. I was out of town until Friday, tried it on Friday and it worked, so something you did got me back into the "happy place". I had to leave town again on Sat. So I only had KWGN on for a couple of minutes.
Thanks, Greg

Ok, so like this is weird. I happened to have KUSA-DT on this morn and all of a sudden they've switched away from regular programming and started running this HD demo loop type thing with nature clips from an HD channel in Seattle and some clips of past musical guests on Leno... Among other misc. stuff..

Hmmm.

Originally posted by DP1
Ok, so like this is weird. I happened to have KUSA-DT on this morn and all of a sudden they've switched away from regular programming and started running this HD demo loop type thing with nature clips from an HD channel in Seattle and some clips of past musical guests on Leno... Among other misc. stuff..

Hmmm. You misunderstand...this is all part of being a "leader"....

:rolleyes:

I went up in the attic to do my usual, every-few-months antenna aiming. (Each time I tell myself I'm not going to mess with it anymore, but then two months later I'm at it again.) I was trying to aim for Lookout Mountain to see if I could get KWGN, but could only pull it in at about 15% on my Hughes E86 (makes me think I'll be SOL even when the new towers are built). To my surprise, KBDI comes in at 100%. I was shocked since I thought those of us in the Boulder area couldn't receive it because of shadowing. All three sub-channels come in great, but I have yet to see them broadcast any HD. Is KBDI actually transmitting HDTV yet? Do they have a schedule of their HDTV programming available?

Thanks,

Steve

No HD on KBDI yet.

TitanTV is hosting their schedule for their 4 channels here (http://titantvguide.titantv.com/apg/grid.aspx?siteId=53011)

Update: I see their first HD presentation is Great Museums on Sat 12/20 at 5MST, and Farm Aid 2003 at 7PM MST. I've seen both on KRMA-DT but for those of you, perhaps far east, that don't get KRMA-DT due to its low power, this may be the first PBS HD you get to see. In Elizabeth, I just barely get KRMA-DT with a signal level of 38, sometimes with allot of breakups, at their 7-8 ERP. But I receive KBDI-DT at a whopping (for me) 78 signal strength due to their HAAT and 33 ERP

Steve,

It's the people that are close to the foothills. If you are away a bit, it should come in like it does for you. Guys in Denver have to be about 2-3 miles away from the foothills to get it. Like about Wadsworth east. I'm the closest to Squaw at about 12 naut. miles from the tower and can't get a signal at all. Got too may hills in the way.

Originally posted by santellavision Steve,

It's the people that are close to the foothills. If you are away a bit, it should come in like it does for you. Guys in Denver have to be about 2-3 miles away from the foothills to get it. Like about Wadsworth east. I'm the closest to Squaw at about 12 naut. miles from the tower and can't get a signal at all. Got too may hills in the way. Exactly....My receiver thinks there's something (very very faint) on 17 but Ch 38 is just another blank channel to it.....(same thing with Ch 12). Glad there's no such thing as shadowing.....;)

Is there some milestone that needs to by recognized when a Muppet movie can be seen in HD? :) (KUSA-DT last Sat. night at 8PM)

What about the Adele's co-host on the Parade, he looked kinda' like a muppet... Does that count? ;)

Originally posted by RonAuger
No HD on KBDI yet.

TitanTV is hosting their schedule for their 4 channels here (http://titantvguide.titantv.com/apg/grid.aspx?siteId=53011)

Update: I see their first HD presentation is Great Museums on Sat 12/20 at 5MST, and Farm Aid 2003 at 7PM MST. I've seen both on KRMA-DT but for those of you, perhaps far east, that don't get KRMA-DT due to its low power, this may be the first PBS HD you get to see. In Elizabeth, I just barely get KRMA-DT with a signal level of 38, sometimes with allot of breakups, at their 7-8 ERP. But I receive KBDI-DT at a whopping (for me) 78 signal strength due to their HAAT and 33 ERP

Thanks for the link and the news. It will be nice to finally see something via OTA.

How did Denver end up with two PBS stations anyway?

Steve

Just checking to see how things are going. It looks like my prediction for the completion of the new tower is going fail. I wanted to check in with some of the down south folks. I am going to try and get my father in law some HDTV and I was going to try and mount an antenna in the attic. If you have done this, any particular model that you have had success with? We are roughly at 470 an Lucent.

On a side note. I have been seeing these antenna on houses recently. It is usually one narrow pole with a square shape set at an angle on top. Any ideas as to what these may be?

Originally posted by samcvic
On a side note. I have been seeing these antenna on houses recently. It is usually one narrow pole with a square shape set at an angle on top. Any ideas as to what these may be? Could be wireless Internet. There are several antenna styles and a new wireless internet company seems to sprout up every week. Some use a radio shaped like an oversized zucchini, for better gain sometimes they have a dish behind (makes it look like DBS), sometimes its shaped and sized like a large pizza box. Or you could be seeing a UHF-only antenna like this (http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3021_4221.jpg). Can't really tell from your description.

HD Broadcast looked very good. First commercial break had a few frames of sidebars going in and coming out. That problem seemed to get solved for the rest of the show as the break insertion was clean. Commercial breaks were switched at the station, not on sight, through KUSA's normal master control. They assigned their most veteran MCO to do it. He's glad he still has his job.

As it stands now, KUSA's initial plans for HD News include flipping a switch on all of their field cameras to shoot 16x9, but these will still only shoot standard definition. However they will be replacing all studio cameras with HD ones & getting what is claimed to be the world's first Hi-Def helicopter camera. They have replaced a good amount of other major equipment over recent years and most of it is HD compatible/convertible.

About KCNC HD news, it's not very likely that they will be able to counter KUSA with local high-def news, at least right away. Their building is old and very outdated as is much of their equipment. They have been gradually replacing equipment with newer stuff, however another significant problem they face is the limited amount of space they have to work with, a situation which is now even worse with the huge, newly installed set. They probably would need to expand the current facility or move into an entirely new one.

BTW: After about a week of receiving no reliable signal from KCNC-DT (10-40%) even with constant antenna experimenting, finally over the weekend it started coming again quite strong. No rhyme or reason, but glad it's back.

For what it's worth, I have just started receiving Channel 38 this weekend. Never got it before the last two days.

No antenna moving, nothing! Now, the only thing I haven't been able to get is KWGN, but I haven't reoriented my antenna to even try as yet. Too directional an antenna I guess.

Jeff

Originally posted by TommyK
flipping a switch on all of their field cameras to shoot 16x9

I wish everyone would do this, the ability is there but people aren't using it. All sporting events should be shot in widescreen IMO. Unfortunately the masses would complain endlessly about the black bars...

Unfortunately the masses would complain endlessly about the black bars...I am amazed also. I went to Soundtrak the other day and I was blown-away by the number of 4:3 TV sets. They are still making them in droves!!!

Brand new models (even thought some have anamorphic mode) they are still 4:3. It's been said before... People are sheep.

Originally posted by santellavision
It's been said before... People are sheep. Baaaah....:D

Hey guys,

I had trouble yesterday--all day-- with Channel 4's HD.

Did KCNC make some changes? I had no reception at all.

Thanks

Ron

Hi, You seem to be the only one on.

Are you getting KCNC in HD right now?

I have lost the hi- def side.

Thanks

rightslot,

I watched the CBS Early show at 8AM this morning. I am getting KCNC-DT fine, which is actually unusual -- in winter, it's usually just below the lock threshold and all broken up, which was the case last night. But right now it is not HD. There won't be HD until YR at 11AM and then primetime. Do you have a signal level meter of some sort on your receiver? Atmospheric and other seasonal conditions seem to have great effect on these low-power signals. KCNC-DT is hit or miss for me. Fortunately, it was perfect for nearly all of the Denver-KC game on Sunday. I had guests and I would have bet that it was going to be not enough signal.

Anyone else having a problem with kusa (16-1). I had been getting it fine, but in the past few days can only get about a 25 level on my hughes e86. I get kcnc and krma fine (90-100). I live in the area between boulder and lyons. I also get kwgn and kdvr as well, with my little ol' rs uhf antenna pointed towards downtown denver - and of course kmgh comes in just GREAT ;-) ;-)

I'm in Boulder and have virtually no southern LOS (I can't use satellite). Do I have any shot at getting OTA HD? Should I try a STB and an antenna? If so, does anyone have recommendations for which STB to try? I've been told the Silver Sensor is the best antenna; does anyone disagree?

I think with this low power nonsense theres alot of variables..not the least of which is "drastic" weather changes. Like nowadays with it being colder than normal it plays a big role at least for *me*. Some channels' SS goes way up when it's cold, and some go down. One example with my current antenna configuration/orientation (aimed away froom Lookout, towards downtown) is that I lose receivability of 34 during the overnight and early morning hours when it's dirt cold. Yet at that same time 35's SS goes way up. Then once the daytime temps start rising, 34 comes back in fine and 35 goes down some. Though 35 stays viewable all the time regardless.

The fact that when theres snow on the ground has always played a role for me too at least on 17... making it "easier" to receive.

Is the KDVR-DT lip-sync problem finally fixed?

It has been fine the last several times I watched it.

Mark

Your User Name,
The answer is .. maybe. It will depend on your particular location and how much effort you are willing to put in to get the low-power signals (trying a few different antennas, locations on the roof, etc.). I tried several different antennas from Radio Shack and ended up with their largest yagi in my attic. There is definately a chance, but know one can predict the outcome at your particular house, unfortunately. If you look at our DTV Reception Maps (http://www.bricklin.org/AVSForum/DenverDTV.htm) you can see some in Boulder get it, others don't.

Many here have had success using the Channel Master antennas (http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/OutdoorAnts.htm). STBs vary but a newer one will generally lock better/sooner than a 1st or 2nd generation box. Try out any box you can get ahold of, "borrow", or can return.

dssset,
Atmospheric and other seasonal conditions are most likely the culprit. I know it is hit or miss with KUSA-DT and KCNC-DT for me all winter.

Thanks for that map. It doesn't look promising, especially given the fact that I would only want to use a ST antenna, not a roof-top.

Originally posted by DP1
One example with my current antenna configuration/orientation (aimed away froom Lookout, towards downtown) is that I lose receivability of 34 during the overnight and early morning hours when it's dirt cold. Yet at that same time 35's SS goes way up. Then once the daytime temps start rising, 34 comes back in fine and 35 goes down some. Though 35 stays viewable all the time regardless.

The fact that when theres snow on the ground has always played a role for me too at least on 17... making it "easier" to receive. That's weird. I would have thought 34 to be easy for you no matter when. I tweaked my attic antenna last Friday and have been getting a fairly stable Ch 35 reading in the 65-79 range since then. My Ch 34 reading hasn't ever fallen below 93 and is usually pegging at 100. If I move that antenna 1" though the Ch 35 strength really falls (into the 30's)...The 3 signals from downtown all require slightly different antenna positions in my case (which I think is due to how they're being diffacted around the hogback). I never did find a signle position that allowed good signal on all 3 stations so I chose to optimize for KCNC-DT....I don't expect to ever see KRMA or KUSA until they make Lookout. Could your signal changes be due to something mechanical (perhaps due to expansion and contraction with temp)? How sensitive is the Ch 35 signal level versus antenn position?

I'm really worried about the SuperBowl.

Now I read here that there is a problem in the Winter? Great !!! :-(

The SuperBowl is IN THE WINTER.

I was all jacked up because it was on KCNC and that was the one HD local that I got on a continual basis. Now it's *(^%*&&*^% up. Haven't seen anything from Channel 4 HD in 2 days.

Originally posted by Your User Name:
Thanks for that map. It doesn't look promising, especially given the fact that I would only want to use a ST antenna, not a roof-top.

ST antenna?

What have you got against a roof-top?

Originally posted by mrvideo
ST antenna?

What have you got against a roof-top?

Stuck up neighbors.

Originally posted by rightslot
I was all jacked up because it was on KCNC and that was the one HD local that I got on a continual basis. Now it's *(^%*&&*^% up. Haven't seen anything from Channel 4 HD in 2 days. What type of antenna are you using and have you tried fine tuning it's positioning? With these low power signal inches may make the difference between poor signal and great signal. Don't just assume "any old place" is a good location for the antenna. Don't use any splitters...

Originally posted by Geof
That's weird. I would have thought 34 to be easy for you no matter when. I tweaked my attic antenna last Friday and have been getting a fairly stable Ch 35 reading in the 65-79 range since then. My Ch 34 reading hasn't ever fallen below 93 and is usually pegging at 100. If I move that antenna 1" though the Ch 35 strength really falls (into the 30's)...The 3 signals from downtown all require slightly different antenna positions in my case (which I think is due to how they're being diffacted around the hogback). I never did find a signle position that allowed good signal on all 3 stations so I chose to optimize for KCNC-DT....I don't expect to ever see KRMA or KUSA until they make Lookout. Could your signal changes be due to something mechanical (perhaps due to expansion and contraction with temp)? How sensitive is the Ch 35 signal level versus antenn position?

Well I should probably premise everything with the fact that my antenna requires precise placement to have any shot at 17 and so that position gets first priority because all the rest are doable well enough generally speaking, from there. I dont know why I'm so hell bent on doin it that way other than like anything else, we always seem to want we normally couldnt have.

That said, if I swung the antenna an inch west 34 would boom in just fine (as 32 happens to but as we've been told it's a bit higher up on Lookout). As far as 35 goes, compared to say 16 and 18 which always peg at 100 24/7/365, theres just something about 35 that acts weird in a number of ways on my setup. Not only the changes due to temp mentioned in the previous post, but in the summer time I cant get it at all from that particular antenna location due to what appears to be massive multipath. Signal strength flucuating drastically up and down thus no ability to lock. Not really sure whats up with that. Maybe the foliage issue (be it the big Cottonwoods in my yard, or whatever) that help me get 17 without issues in the summer, haunt me on 35 at the same time. I dont know.

Since you're familiar with the SS meter on the Hughes clones heres a good example as to the strangeness I see as I type this. Currently, I'm getting 51 on 17, which is about as good as it gets (especially at this time of a winter day..which I attribute to the cold temps and snow cover as witnessed for more than a couple winters) and yet only 65 (down from 80ish at daybreak) on 35. Oh, and 34 after dropping down to a reading of 24 overnight is at 58 right now.

From reading posts on signals the last few days, I must consider myself very lucky. I aim my CM 3023 (4248 in two pieces) to max 17 and the rest of the stations all come in OK and really never vary much at all no matter the time of the year. 17 does go up and downa bit, but I usually can get it without pixelation. I live just SW of CC State Park. Interestingly, a close neighbor, who is higher up than me can get everything except not a whiff on 17 with his good CM antenna. Goes to show that finding a sweet spot no matter where you live is important given the very low (and in the case of 17, almost non-existant) signals we are trying to pick up. Let's just hope for an early Lookout date and a lot more power!

Yeah Dan that is weird....perhaps multipath is affecting 35. One big difference is that 35 is well, Ch 35 and the others are 16, 17, and 18. That's quite a difference in frequency so it sort of makes sense that KCNC is different than the others....I suspect that your antenna is pointed so that the "Yagi null" is just about lined up with KWGN's antenna. Your misfortune for geometry of Lookout, KMGH and your house.....

On the plus side at leasst you get 17.....miracles of miracles. I am quite confident I'd stand a better chance of getting stronger signals from Voyager, which at last word was exiting our solar system.:(

Well these days I'm using that big bowtie which gave results about as we expected before I put it up. A little more directional..like 38 which I cant lock regardless with that orientation used to sit at like 15 SS wise and now is only like 6... but it seemed to stabilize 17 a bit on those warmer winter days which is where I had trouble before with the Yagi. All the other channels seem to act about the same way as with the Yagi.

Oh, and lookey there... it must be getting a little warmer.. 34 just moved up another level to 65. ;)

Originally posted by DP1
Well these days I'm using that big bowtie which gave results about as we expected before I put it up. A little more directional..like 38 which I cant lock regardless with that orientation used to sit at like 15 SS wise and now is only like 6... but it seemed to stabilize 17 a bit on those warmer winter days which is where I had trouble before with the Yagi. All the other channels seem to act about the same way as with the Yagi.
Whoops, forgot you went with the bowtie. It also has a null of sorts at about 30 degrees - and low gain at many off axis angles....as can be seen here (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html).

I have noticed that KCNC has been acting weird the last couple of weeks. I am getting big swings in signal strength, 70's down to 40's, that I never had before. No problems with KUSA, or KRMA. I am even getting KMGH fairly stable in the lower 50's.

My luck with 34, 32 and 38 is the same as Dan's since my antenna is pointing at 17.

Originally posted by Your User Name:
Stuck up neighbors.

Tell the neighbors to pound sand...

Read the link in my sig...

Originally posted by Scooper
Tell the neighbors to pound sand...

Read the link in my sig...

Yeah, I know I COULD, but I really don't want to be "that guy," ya know. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone who decided to be "that guy."

Originally posted by Geof
What type of antenna are you using and have you tried fine tuning it's positioning? With these low power signal inches may make the difference between poor signal and great signal. Don't just assume "any old place" is a good location for the antenna. Don't use any splitters...

Hey Geof,

Well I worried about getting to this point. I am using ---------get this------- the little wire you get when you buy a new receiver. Yep. That's the one. The little piece of thread wire that is use to get your FM from your receiver.

But hold tight! I first ran out and bought a big antenna from Radio Shack.

Didn't do any better. But my goal at the time was to get KMGH. (I have given up on that until I get a Channel Master for the roof.)

Bottom line? Until Monday I was getting KCNC just fine. In fact, the only better local was Channel 6 --- PBS.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by rightslot
Hey Geof,

Well I worried about getting to this point. I am using ---------get this------- the little wire you get when you buy a new receiver. Yep. That's the one. The little piece of thread wire that is use to get your FM from your receiver.

But hold tight! I first ran out and bought a big antenna from Radio Shack.

Didn't do any better. But my goal at the time was to get KMGH. (I have given up on that until I get a Channel Master for the roof.)

Bottom line? Until Monday I was getting KCNC just fine. In fact, the only better local was Channel 6 --- PBS.

Thoughts? Well you're not going like what I'm thinking but you asked...;)

Get a bigger (UHF) antenna.

I know that comes as no surprise though.

As mentioned by several posters - signal reception varies depending on temp and season. You may have been marginal to begin with. Keep in mind you get great picture or no picture....(maybe a bit of pixelation when you're close to the edge). Does your STB have a signal level meter? What's it say? Have you played around with the "wire" while watching the signal level?

The good news for you is that once you get a real antenna you should be getting most stations reliably. You should rejoice in that because many of us are just plain f'd in that regard until Lookout comes online (and many of us have been waiting for over 2 years already).....:mad:

Originally posted by Geof
Well you're not going like what I'm thinking but you asked...;)

Get a bigger antenna.

I know that comes as no surprise though.

As mentioned by several posters - signal reception varies depending on temp and season. You may have been marginal to begin with. Keep in mind you get great picture or no picture....(maybe a bit of pixelation when you're close to the edge). Des your STB have a signal level meter? What's it say? Have you played around with the wire while watching the signal level?

The good news for you is that once you get a real antenna you should be getting most stations reliably. You should rejoice in that because many of us are just plain f'd in that regard.:rolleyes:

Ok. Right now I'm at work. Can't wait to get home. But I'm still going to have to get a INDOOR one for the time being.

Any thoughts on a good INDOOR one. And yes, I have looked at the strength meters. There are 3 on my Zenith 520. Each one is about 62-67. But I have 3 LNB’s so I never considered these meters for my local signal, just for DirecTV.

But like I said I’m worried about the SuperBowl so my ego is out of the picture. Tell me what you think.

Thanks.

Stay away from Terk antennas.

The Silver Sensor is all the rave as I understand it. I'm sure others will chime in and correct me if they know of something better.

I don't have the 520 but I am reasonably sure it has a signal meter for local digital stations. I guess you'll have to RTFM (gasp:)). You need to use this meter to help you point and orient the antenna, otherwise you're flying blind. The 62-67 on the 3 LNB's is for DirecTv (and those readings sound a bit low but they should suffice for now).

Dude, no rinky dink indoor antennas that you'd put by your tv are going to work *reliably* on all the channels for you based on your location. You live too far away. These stations are all working with temporary low power "solutions". You'll most certainly have to go with a bigger antenna as an attic install (thats still indoors, right?). And beyond that, you're not going to get 17 from where you live no matter what you do. Even if you put it outdoors on the roof. In the better part of 4 years around here nobody has ever reported being able to get that channel that lives anywhere near you.

Originally posted by DP1
Dude, no rinky dink indoor antennas that you'd put by your tv are going to work *reliably* on all the channels for you based on your location. You live too far away. These stations are all working with temporary low power "solutions". You'll most certainly have to go with a bigger antenna as an attic install (thats still indoors, right?). And beyond that, you're not going to get 17 from where you live no matter what you do. Even if you put it outdoors on the roof. In the better part of 4 years around here nobody has ever reported being able to get that channel that lives anywhere near you.

Hey,

Thanks for the reply. Tell me this--What is Channel 17 ?? All I'm getting at this time is channels KCNC ( 4-1 ) PBS ( 6-1 ) KUSA ( 9-1 ) and then the ones off DIRECT TV.

I do not get Channels 7, 2, or any of the ones I see you guys talking about 17, 34, 38, man! I get none of these.

What's the deal?

Originally posted by rightslot

Any thoughts on a good INDOOR one. And yes, I have looked at the strength meters. There are 3 on my Zenith 520. Each one is about 62-67. But I have 3 LNB’s so I never considered these meters for my local signal, just for DirecTV.
Thanks.

The SAT520 has a signal button on the remote. If you tune the station and hit signal, it'll show you the signal strength of the current OTA station. Unfortunately it's not number metered. The bar will range from (none-poor-good-great).


WB 2.1 started showing APG data last night on my receiver. I forwarded to Smallville tonight, and shure enough it showed Smallville (HD)

The deal is what I just said.. you're antenna arrangement isnt cutting it. 17 is KMGH's digital channel. 34 is KWGN's digital channel. 38 is KBDI's digital channel.

See your receiver is showing them as their analog channel number with a - next to them. KCNC is actually channel 35 (in the UHF band) but your receiver calls it 4-1. KRMA is actually channel 18 but your receiver calls it 6-1. KUSA is actually channel 16 but your receiver calls it 9-1. KWGN is channel 34 but your receiver might call it 2-1. KDVR (fox) is channel 32 but your receiver might call it 31-1. KMGH is channel 17 but your receiver might call it 7-1 and so on.

I'm one of the very few fortunate enough to have 17-1 booming into my place. I can place the bowtie just about anywhere for a good signal. On the other hand, with KCNC-DT there is only one very particular postion I can the antenna with a margin of error of only about an inch. Once placed there, the 35 signal comes in at 60-75%.

Originally posted by Greg T
The SAT520 has a signal button on the remote. If you tune the station and hit signal, it'll show you the signal strength of the current OTA station. Unfortunately it's not number metered. The bar will range from (none-poor-good-great).


WB 2.1 started showing APG data last night on my receiver. I forwarded to Smallville tonight, and shure enough it showed Smallville (HD) YES! 2-1 has made it to the APG.....I have now deleted Ch 2 (but not 2-1) from my guide.....Cool

Thanks for the info on the 520 digital signal strength meter.

Rightslot,
Use that meter to see if what kind of signal strength you get. With a decent antenna you have a good shot at getting:

KWGN-DT 2-1 (34) (Lookout)
KCNC-DT 4-1 (35) (Republic Plaza Downtown)
KRMA-DT 6-1 (18) (Republic Plaza Downtown)
KUSA-DT 9-1 (16) (Republic Plaza Downtown)
KDVR-DT 31-1 (32) (Lookout)
KBDI-DT 12-1 (38) (Squaw)

How much time, effort, and money you want to put into getting those stations is up to you - get the signal readings and go from there.

The Sony HD200 I have is a clone of the Zenith 520, I believe. Unfortunately, they only display the signal meter for about ten seconds when you press "Signal" whilest tuned to a OTA DTV station.

Ahhh! First post on the page!

Hey Ron - you've gotten your timing back.....you're first post on this page!

And it only took a little practice and ignoring my annoying job for hours on end. :D

Well, the gang at KWGN sure has been busy.

My Sammy 160 now shows EPG data. Good goin'!

Unfortunately, I still get the dreaded reboot when I try to tune in.

Was hoping that the PSIP/EPG was the magic. Alas, not yet to be...

Oh well, keep trying. ;)

Dave M. - Heard anything from Samsung?

Thanks

Anybody using the Directv Samsung 160 receiver and getting KWGN 2-1? The station shows up in the guide but if I tune to it, I get about 1/4 sec of video/audio then the receiver reboots. This cycle will continue until I pull the antenna connection. I then have to manually remove the station from the guide and tune the station off of 2-1 in order to get the receiver working again. Just wondering of anyone else in the Denver area with this receiver has experienced this.

Edit: Doh...just saw the post above mine....I guess misery loves company :)

Doug

Yup, join the club. :rolleyes:

Go back over the last few weeks, and you'll see many posts relating to the Samsung reboots.

FYI, it's a lot quicker getting out of the loop by just disconnecting the antenna during its reboot phase - when it is 'acquiring guide data'. Once it boots up, it will not find the channel (no antenna connected), so then you can tune to another station, and reconnect the antenna. No 'futzing' with the guide needed. Trust me, BTDT... Lots 'o times. :)

Later

LOL---yeah, I've have the antenna cable in and out so many times I feel that I should have "gotten a room" and bought it dinner first...

Have you tried manually adding channel 34? I have a sony 60xbr950 that has a integrated atsc tuner, but it is much weaker than the sammy tuner and I only get 2 digital stations. Doesn't help that I only have a omidirectional terk antenna, but it gets me cbs, nbc, and fox digital station on the sammy so I haven't been too motivated to upgrade and go through the PITA HOA to get a roof mount antenna.

Doug

Frottage, you do not need to go through your HOA. FCC regulations trump all HOA concerns. See many posts about this.

Frottage, I have not been able to manually add any channels to the 160. Not sure if it can be done. Only been able to scan, and when a station is found, then add to guide list.

FWIW, I have all the local digitals available on my receiver - albeit that KWGN hangs...

34 is the actual channel KWGN broadcasts on, but is remapped to 2-1 through PSIP. As far as we can tell, that's where the Sammys are hanging up - with the PSIP. If you are getting 2-1 mapped on the guide - you ~are~ getting 34.

Even a couple of weeks ago - when they weren't remapping to 2-1, I was getting the reboot. There was a short (about one day) test that KWGN ran, and it was mapped to 2-2, and the Samsungs worked, but nothing else did.

Actually the gestapo mandates that I have various areas tested and "certified" by an "installer" that they are not suitable for OTA reception before I can roof mount (they actually have a form to fill out). Now I could bs the form and slap my EE degree in front of them and tell then where I *really* want to put the antenna, but until the terk proves totally inadequate, I'd rather save my energy. Even then it limits the aerial diameter to 39". Yeah...that's what I get for living in "Yuppie ville"...I mean Highlands Ranch.

Doug

ok, ok

ANYBODY know where I can get this Silver Sensor?

Originally posted by frottage
Actually the gestapo mandates that I have various areas tested and "certified" by an "installer" that they are not suitable for OTA reception before I can roof mount (they actually have a form to fill out).
I believe the FCC says something to the effect that HOAs cannot stop you from putting up an antenna where it works. Not that you can only put one up if it doesn't work anywhere else. Read the ruling before you take my word for it. And attach a copy of the FCC ruling with your blank form :D

Originally posted by frottage
Even then it limits the aerial diameter to 39". Yeah...that's what I get for living in "Yuppie ville"...I mean Highlands Ranch.
Clearly in violation of federal law. The only limit you have is the mast can't be higher than 12 feet. You have a federally-protected right to put up an antenna of any reasonable diameter.

Here's the FCC ruling (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html)

Originally posted by Your User Name:
Yeah, I know I COULD, but I really don't want to be "that guy," ya know. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone who decided to be "that guy."

Don't let them win. Put up the antenna and use a rotator. If the head of the HOA, or one of the neighbors shows up, just tell them that U.S. law allows you to put up the antenna and if that person doesn't believe you, send them to a lawyer, at their expense.

You've been given a right, by law, to install the thing.

Originally posted by frottage
... so I haven't been too motivated to upgrade and go through the PITA HOA to get a roof mount antenna.

Why would you have to go through your HOA? As pointed out in the many posts here, if the property is your, or you control it, or if you rent property that is single family (for example), then put the antenna up. The law says you can.

SHort summary of the OTARD -

As long as the Antenna is for LOCAL (no distintion between Digital or analog, BTW) reception, your antenna can be ANY size required to get a picture. THe only "restriction" is that if you go above 12feet above your roofline, local codes may apply. There are a few common sense items in there as well - you can't block fire escapes with your antennas, for example. Also if your PITA HOA beleives they are exempt and can enforce a restriction - it's on THEIR dime to prove to the FCC that their regulation is OK - not on your's otherwise.

The 39 inches (1 meter) limit is applicable only to DBS dishes - not any other antenna.

Originally posted by rightslot
ok, ok

ANYBODY know where I can get this Silver Sensor?

If I remember correctly some Circuit City stores used to carry it but I'm not sure if they do any more or not. It doesnt show up on their website. Other than that I think people had to order them off the net.

Heres a link to one off Yahoo shopping so you can see what one looks like so you know what you're looking for if you go to Circuit City, or call them to see if they stock it.

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/hypeaudio/zhdtv1.html

I think you all are missing the point. It's not that he doesn't understand, that he has the right, it's that he doesn't want to alienate himself in his community.

I'm in the same boat. I would do without local channels, before I would be the first to strap an ungodly antenna to my house. I know I have the right, but I just wouldn't do it. But at the same time, I also expect my neighbors to do the same. We all read, and agree'd, to the same covenant before we purchased our houses, there are no surprises here. The covenant was one of the big reason I purchased here. After enduring the neighbor that painted his house and fence purple, or the ham radio neighbor with the 50' mast in his backyard, and on and on, I decided I would purchase in a neighborhood that just wouldn't allow that to happen. I fully understand, and accept that these restrictions also apply equally to me. I have no problem with this, and I pay my $300 a year for the homeowners association to uphold these rules.

I guess my point is that if you live in a non covenant controlled neighborhood, and want an antenna and mast, thats great, more power to ya. But for us folks who decided to live within the restrictions of a covenant, we have to respect our neighbors that have decided to do the same, and who also pay their money each year to keep them enforced, and who are also living there for the same reasons I am.

Luckily I was able to mount an antenna in my attic, and I do get reasonable reception. Had that not worked, I would have stopped there, and looked for other means, Cable, etc, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by Scooper
SHort summary of the OTARD -

As long as the Antenna is for LOCAL (no distintion between Digital or analog, BTW) reception, your antenna can be ANY size required to get a picture. THe only "restriction" is that if you go above 12feet above your roofline, local codes may apply. There are a few common sense items in there as well - you can't block fire escapes with your antennas, for example. Also if your PITA HOA beleives they are exempt and can enforce a restriction - it's on THEIR dime to prove to the FCC that their regulation is OK - not on your's otherwise.

The 39 inches (1 meter) limit is applicable only to DBS dishes - not any other antenna.

Excellent info...I made no distinction between antenna and dish with regards to the antenna...
now pardon my ignorance here, but is the "roof line" defined to be the top of the highest point of the house's roof--nice to have ammo before going into a fight :)
Edit: here's the HOA info: http://www.hrcaonline.org/TempPage.asp?PageID=48
anf the form
http://www.hrcaonline.org/Architectural/antennasub.asp

so with regard to the Location section and item 2, I could just claim I am installing it myself and cite the FCC ruling as giving me the right to install it on the roof (obviously I would, as the installer, also claim the other areas as being inadequate)

sorry to drift OT here, but and I know YANAL, but I feel better about my rights...to HDTV

Doug

Originally posted by ottodog
I think you all are missing the point. It's not that he doesn't understand, that he has the right, it's that he doesn't want to alienate himself in his community.

<snip>



In my area, it is almost the opposite...all the neighbors I have talked to want me to lead the charge (with regards to antennas) since I already won one fight against the HOA (I guess they think I'm on a roll)

Doug

Ok, maybe I missed the point. : )

I don't see any issue with the Highlands Ranch form. They're asking for the installer/homeowner to consider placing the antenna in a position that is [generally] least objectionable, in accordance with their list. That (IMO) is a reasonable request.

I also live in a really covenant controlled area and I had no problem with installing a satellite dish (in fact they encouraged it at the time because the local (to my area) cable company had so many outages). I'm sure I could win the OTA battle as well if I pushed the issue. But, like Ottodog, I am not going to - for several reasons. First, I mostly agree with Ottodog's position. Second, I don't want to look at the thing. Lastly (and really the main reason) is because I could not find a suitable spot where it wouldn't look objectionable and function well at the same time.

There are good ways to do things and not so good ways. I saw a very nice installation of the CM4228 double bowtie last weekend at Leonards house...The antenna was along the side of the house and not standing up on a mast. It was very unobtrusive looking. In fact one would be hard pressed to notice it. Placing something like this on the side of a chimney (for example) and painting it the same color of the background would be pretty slick (IMO) and unobtrusive. I don't think it's out of line for a HOA to ask someone to try and fit the antenna in with it's surroundings and I'd hope for that courtesy if my neighbor were installing an antenna.

Another thing the FCC rules specify is that pre-approval cannot be required, since that would be an unreasonable delay.

So, if you have a notion to put up an antenna at 2:00 PM on Saturday, you can start installing it at 2:01 PM, with no pre-approval from an HOA.

IMO, neighbors & HOAs that think that TV antennas are really some kind of horrible disease really need to find something more important to worry about.

Mark

P.S. I just got elected to my HOA board (almost against my will). Fortunately, our covenants have no illegal provisions against antennas--one less source of argument.

Originally posted by ottodog
I think you all are missing the point. It's not that he doesn't understand, that he has the right, it's that he doesn't want to alienate himself in his community.

Luckily I was able to mount an antenna in my attic, and I do get reasonable reception. Had that not worked, I would have stopped there, and looked for other means, Cable, etc, etc.

When you signed that document, analog TV was receivable via rabbit-ears, in many situations. But, with digital TV in this country using a transmission scheme that is very prone to multipath problems, rabbit-ears more-than-likely won't work. It is highly possible that placement of an antenna in the attic won't work either. Therefore, if you really want HDTV, you 'must' put up an outside antenna on the roof and you might need a rotator as well.

That just might be the case for one of your neighbors and that neighbor will put up an antenna, knowing that is nothing that you can do about it.

Times do change. What once worked in the past, won't necessarily work in the future. Plus, there are those who do not want cable. I suppose you don't like seeing the pizza-pan dishes as well.

I suppose you don't like seeing the pizza-pan dishes as well.One thing I wish more people would do is paint them so they blend in with the surroundings better. Paint would also cover up the hideous "RCA" or whatever is emblazoned across the front of the dish.

Well not only paint them, but often times the dishes can be placed in an area where they're not nearly as visible. Some of these dish installs crack me up. It's almost like they wanted to mount them right above the front door for a reason. ;)

I dont know, lets remember 90% of us wouldnt even be talking about using outdoor antennas at all if we didnt have to. Thats what full power channels and retransmission by cable and DBS is for. It's not like we all banded together and said wow, it's so cool to put up an outdoor antenna and rotor to be able to get every analog channel for 75 miles around because it's fun and we want to get the most pristine analog reception available.

Not that this being a transition period really matters to the HOA's of course though. My area has regs too but it's an older neighborhood. The verbage I found was that an outdoor antenna device cant be more than 6' above the roofline. Which is ok with me. The one thing I didnt see referenced was C-Band dishes (maybe because those werent being done residentially when this 'hood was built). So I suppose if I wanted to I could put one of those up (unless it was above my roofline) but I dont want to. Although for most of the 90's that was my primary source for tv viewing when I lived up in the hills.

When you signed that document, analog TV was receivable via rabbit-ears, in many situations. But, with digital TV in this country using a transmission scheme that is very prone to multipath problems, rabbit-ears more-than-likely won't work. It is highly possible that placement of an antenna in the attic won't work either. Therefore, if you really want HDTV, you 'must' put up an outside antenna on the roof and you might need a rotator as well.

Well since Denver currently has 0 full power stations, we really don't know what will work. When everyone is at full power, at their permenant homes on the hill, this will probably be a non-issue for most.

Like I said, the attic works fine for me in my location. I doubt that moving the antenna outside my house would gain anything at this point. Will it work fine for my neighbor, maybe, maybe not. As geof stated, I hope if he goes the antenna route, he will keep it as unobtrusive as possible. I certainly would show him the same consideration, if I had decided to go that route.

Originally posted by Geof
One thing I wish more people would do is paint them so they blend in with the surroundings better. Paint would also cover up the hideous "RCA" or whatever is emblazoned across the front of the dish.

Unless you get the right paint, you just might make your dish useless. Believe it or not, the dish is a precision formed item. For Ka band reception with such a small dish, it is very important that the dish not be screwed up. So, painting it is pretty much NOT suggested.

You'd hate my place, which contains a 10' C-Band, a 12' C/Ku-Band, a Primestar Ku (for NBC) dish and a roof mounted antenna (with rotator).

I take my TV viewing seriously.

For whoever was looking for the Silver Sensor, Amazon sells the Gemini at about 1/3 the price of the Zenith Silver Sensor and, from what I'm told, they are the SAME THING.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006FXR9/102-0215743-4549759?v=glance

Maybe the FCC should spend more time getting the local networks off their A$$es, and less worrying about what the HOA's are doing. Of course then we wouldn't have anything to talk about, would we. : )

Originally posted by mrvideo
So, painting it is pretty much NOT suggested. I've always painted mine and even D* says you can paint them. As long as you don't change the geometry, like with a REALLY large paint drip down the front of the dish. I don't even lose much signal when snow is built up on the dish, as long as it builds up evenly. Once it starts to melt than I lose signal. I was smart enough to mount mine at ground level on the side of the house toward the back -- easy to brush off and tweak alignment when I need it (like this past July with the 110 slot)

Originally posted by mrvideo,
Unless you get the right paint, you just might make your dish useless. Believe it or not, the dish is a precision formed item. For Ka band reception with such a small dish, it is very important that the dish not be screwed up. So, painting it is pretty much NOT suggested.

This is not right. The fact is that just about any non-metalic and non-glossy paint will not screw up the dish. Ordinary latex (for example) is fine, as is Krylon (which is what I used to paint the dish and mounting brackets). One thing that should not be painted is the plastic whitish LNB cover (the part that faces the dish).

If you don't want to take my word for it (and my painted dish has been working for 6 years now) look at the DirecTv FAQ (http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/learn/FAQ_DTVInstallation.dsp#7). It's the third question from the bottom.

For those of you who don't want to put an antenna on the roof for whatever reason - don't come bleeting about how you can't receive the programming you want within the restrictions you're putting on yourself. All I'm pointing out is that your HOA is essentially powerless to prevent you from erecting an antenna to receive that programming. There is also nothing wrong with wanting to "hide" said antenna - but again, don't complain that you can't get your desired programming within your self-imposed restrictions. There's also those of us who don't give a darn about what the neighbors will think if we put an antenna up within the restrictions of the OTARD. That's life - deal with it...

Originally posted by ottodog
As geof stated, I hope if he goes the antenna route, he will keep it as unobtrusive as possible. I certainly would show him the same consideration, if I had decided to go that route.

And, surprisingly, 99% of people will do that, without any written restrictions at all.

I've also noticed that as our neighborhood has matured, antennas tend to blend in very well with the trees, summer or winter. It's only the new neighborhoods without any trees where antennas are really even noticeable (except for those of us who are looking :)).

Mark

Originally posted by RonAuger
I was smart enough to mount mine at ground level on the side of the house toward the back -- easy to brush off and tweak alignment when I need it (like this past July with the 110 slot)

I agree there too. Why put them way up out of reach unless you absolutely have to for LOS reasons.

I have 3 mini dishes (in 3 diff locations, 2 of which are at ground level and the 3rd which isnt that never gets snow build up on it anyway cause a taller part of the house tends to shield it) and a big outdoor antenna and not a one of them is readily seen from the street.

For those of you who don't want to put an antenna on the roof for whatever reason - don't come bleeting about how you can't receive the programming you want within the restrictions you're putting on yourself.

I don't remeber "bleeting" about my reception. Besides the local networks, and politicians, are the reason for my lack of reception. Not the HOA.

Originally posted by Scooper
For those of you who don't want to put an antenna on the roof for whatever reason - don't come bleeting about how you can't receive the programming you want within the restrictions you're putting on yourself. All I'm pointing out is that your HOA is essentially powerless to prevent you from erecting an antenna to receive that programming. There is also nothing wrong with wanting to "hide" said antenna - but again, don't complain that you can't get your desired programming within your self-imposed restrictions. There's also those of us who don't give a darn about what the neighbors will think if we put an antenna up within the restrictions of the OTARD. That's life - deal with it... Well gee. I think we know not to complain about something we could do but didn't do. Actually we can complain but shouldn't get sympathy. ;)

As to the "don't give a darn about what the neighbors think" - that is precisely why most folks who live in a HOA moved to a HOA area. I don't like looking at my junk let alone my neighbors. I want a reasonably well kept area and one where a neighbor can't trash out the place and lower my property values in the process. That is my choice. IMO "most" Americans are pigs. Drive in the country and you'll see junk everywhere. Drive in the German countryside (for example) and all you'll see is neat well kept areas. To each his own, that is why we have choice.

Originally posted by Geof
This is not right. The fact is that just about any non-metalic and non-glossy paint will not screw up the dish. Ordinary latex (for example) is fine, as is Krylon (which is what I used to paint the dish and mounting brackets). One thing that should not be painted is the plastic whitish LNB cover (the part that faces the dish).

If you don't want to take my word for it (and my painted dish has been working for 6 years now) look at the DirecTv FAQ (http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/learn/FAQ_DTVInstallation.dsp#7). It's the third question from the bottom.

I should have been more accurate with the posting. It is because some people have no clue and could easily get the wrong paint. The odds of the person finding the info on the web are slim as well. I just say to not bother to paint it. Then again, I don't think dishes and antenna are ugly. :D :D

As for snow, it can definately affect reception. We got some last night and it wasn't even distributed on the 10' and 12' dishes. I read the output of the signal from the Billboard Awards backhaul and after I swept the dish, I got back 3 db Eb/No and on the 12', which was receiving the UPN secondary net feed at the time, I got back 2 db Eb/No. With the CBS/UPN digital signal every little bit counts, since they are so low to start with (9 db Eb/No is what their engineering paperwork says one should get and I get 8 or 9 most of the time).

The DBS dishes have a little more headroom as a result of the higher powered birds. But, that also allows the smaller dish size.

Originally posted by Geof
Well gee. I think we know not to complain about something we could do but didn't do. Actually we can complain but shouldn't get sympathy. ;)

As to the "don't give a darn about what the neighbors think" - that is precisely why most folks who live in a HOA moved to a HOA area. I don't like looking at my junk let alone my neighbors. I want a reasonably well kept area and one where a neighbor can't trash out the place and lower my property values in the process. IMO most Americans are pigs. Drive in the country and you'll see junk everywhere. Drive in the German countryside (for example) and all you'll see is neat well kept areas. That is my choice. To each his own, that is why we have choice.

Exactly - circumstances beyond your control (your LP DTV broadcasters, politicians, etc.) - you have my sympathies. Your choice is to live with the HOA - mine is to NOT live with a HOA - nothing wrong with either choice - we just have different things that are important to us. I don't want a bunch of trash blowing around the neighborhood either - but since my place is in a wooded area - it's my decision to let the uncleared part of the property "go natural" - I don't do leaf cleaning, nor downed tree branch pickup out there. I let fallen trees lay out there and naturally rot away. I keep my driveway and other cleared areas cleared. But I will keep manmade trash under control on all the property - that suits my standards of "not fitting in".

Originally posted by RonAuger
rightslot,

KCNC-DT is hit or miss for me. Fortunately, it was perfect for nearly all of the Denver-KC game on Sunday. I had guests and I would have bet that it was going to be not enough signal.


Ron,

When you said that you were "fortunately" getting KCNC-DT for the Broncos game on Sunday, that wasn't in HD or anything else special was it? Just wondering if there was something I missed from the OTA broadcast that wasn't there on Dish.

-R.

If you want to make the dish blend in with the house, you could always paint your house to match!

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
If you want to make the dish blend in with the house, you could always paint your house to match! Hah! Would I also have to paint a giant "RCA" across the house....lol....

Too much work dude!

RLE,
Yes, the Broncos game last Sunday on KCNC-DT was in HD. I don't have Dish and don't know if it was (or not) on Dish.

(D@mn! Missed by one minute)

Sorry I knocked you out of the top spot Ron.... :eek:

Otto,

I respect your opinion on the matter. You have the right to choose to follow your HOA guidelines or not. Your neighbors do also. Several years ago, the Rock Creek HOA did not allow either dishes or antennas on your own property unless they were completely invisible ( their word, not mine ) from each owner's fence line. This might have been fine, except for the fact that the neighborhood was not wired for cable either. With that in mind, I, and others in our neighborhood, took on the HOA reasonably and were rebuffed by them. I sent them the FCC rulings ( from postings on this forum ) and advised them to contact their legal representative about it and they relented in short order.

One of the reasons that the law is in place is to assure every citizen the right to receive local broadcasts, including news and weather and emergency information. Some HOA's contended that they had the right to restrict antennas because their residents could get the local stations over cable. But, that opinion was thrown out as the HOA's cannot force you to pay to receive signals via payTV ( cable or satellite) and they have to allow EVERYONE to receive the signals OTA ( free ) if it is possible.

Jeff

Jeff,

I realize every situation will be different, and every person will make their own decision. I guess the whole reason I chimed in on this conversation to begin with, was that everytime someone mentions HOA's, there seems to be an immediate response to rebel against the system. Kind of like we are some kind of opressed people that don't know our rights. I was just offering perspective from the "other side". I know the rules, and I know my rights, and I choose to go one way. My neighbor may choose to go the other, but that's their right.

I certainly understand why the FCC probably got involved to begin with. I wouldn't want to see people forced into cable, satellite, or anything for that matter.

Originally posted by Your User Name:
For whoever was looking for the Silver Sensor, Amazon sells the Gemini at about 1/3 the price of the Zenith Silver Sensor and, from what I'm told, they are the SAME THING.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006FXR9/102-0215743-4549759?v=glance

Hi, Thanks. That would be me. I need to find it (Sensor or Gemini) local.

Best Buy? Radio Shaq, (sp---- :-) ], Comp USA?

Thoughts?

Did you look at the signals levels that you currently have using the "wire". If you have no signal level now the Silver Sensor may not help. If the levels are there but marginal it might provide enough gain to get you by.

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
If you want to make the dish blend in with the house, you could always paint your house to match!

I love it, a house painted battleship grey (gray, depending on your preference) :D :D

If you want to make the dish blend in with the house, you could always paint your house to match!

Make sure you get approval from the HOA. :D

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
If you want to make the dish blend in with the house, you could always paint your house to match!
Exactly what I did :)

(Actually, because my HOA dictates what colour my house is allowed to be, I chose a colour scheme that by its nature, caused my dishes to blend in nicely)

Originally posted by ottodog
Make sure you get approval from the HOA. :D

Rats, there goes that battleship gray house. You could have built a conning tower and put all the antennas on it as well :D

Battleship gray sure beats ugly purple any day. I don't care if one is in a HOA area or not, purple is just out-and-out ugly. But, if the owners want to paint their house purple, so be it.

Originally posted by ottodog
Jeff,

I realize every situation will be different, and every person will make their own decision. I guess the whole reason I chimed in on this conversation to begin with, was that everytime someone mentions HOA's, there seems to be an immediate response to rebel against the system. Kind of like we are some kind of opressed people that don't know our rights. I was just offering perspective from the "other side". I know the rules, and I know my rights, and I choose to go one way. My neighbor may choose to go the other, but that's their right.

I certainly understand why the FCC probably got involved to begin with. I wouldn't want to see people forced into cable, satellite, or anything for that matter.
Just to chime in a little on the HOA thing, when we went looking to buy a house (we were looking for a new house so we could put CAT-5 in at construction time), we couldn't find a community that didn't have an HOA. So while we signed the papers, we really didn't have a choice.

And I didn't check with my HOA before I mounted my dishes (BEV and D*) or rooftop antenna. I put them in places that would be best for signal quality. When the full power tower goes live, I'm hopeful that I can remove the antenna on my roof. Until then, I'm glad I live in a free country (despite my HOA's best attempts) where I'm allowed to put an antenna on my roof if I want to.

Originally posted by mrvideo
Rats, there goes that battleship gray house. You could have built a conning tower and put all the antennas on it as well :D

Along with a periscope to see if it's the HOA knocking on the door....:p

Originally posted by ottodog
I certainly understand why the FCC probably got involved to begin with. I wouldn't want to see people forced into cable, satellite, or anything for that matter.

The FCC got into it because of Congress and Congress got into it because of pressure from the DBS sat companies (just like Hollywood caused the stupid DMCA law to be enacted). Because there are tons of HOAs in this country, DBS penetration would be extremely limited and it would give cable a monopoly. And I can guess that the one meter rule came about because one of the early entires used a dish (Primestar) that was a little under a meter, but definately larger than the current DBS dishes. The broadcast antenna part of the rule came about because DBS, at the time, did not provide local channels like cable, so the users of DBS dishes had to have a way to get local stations.

Even though cities are now getting local-into-local, for a "small" fee and very low bitrate, the local-into-local does not provide HD service. I'd hate to see that if they did, considering what I saw with SD local-into-local recently (on a business trip).

The rule doesn't force anyone into getting a particular kind of service, that is technically illegal. But, it does even the playing surface so that all contenders get a shot at the consumer.

As a consumer I kicked cable out of my house ages ago, after I got my C-Band dishes and a VCII+ decoder for one of them. With my setup I can chose the services I want. I do not have get packages of crap I don't want. Plus, it is a lot cheaper than DBS or cable.

Unfortunately, with lots of C-Band users dumping their subscriptions for that pizza-pan thingy, it may get to a point where the service providers will no longer be around. One company has quoted about 500,000 being their leave-it point. It is getting damn close. I don't know if that count is only for VCII+ customers, or also includes the DCII customers (4DTV receivers). If it includes both, I don't what I will ultimately do. I watch very little "cable" services. Sci-Fi and Showtime being about the only two. I pay or others, for in-case-of reasons.

Sorry to be off topic, but if HOA rules existed in my area, (they don't for any reason) which resulted in a banning of the dishes that I use, I'd have to move. There is a ton of stuff up there that I get to see that the normal public has no idea about. Just ask engineers at local stations, they can be as much of a BUDhead as I am (some of my BUDhead contacts are station engineers). As an example, I got to watch the Billboard Music Awards last night without commercials, without the damn Fox bug and any lower thirds that Fox might have put up (I suspect they did). Unfortunately, the bit rate they set the encoder for resulted in horrible macroblocks and this was a 4:2:2 anamorphic digital feed. Plus, it was uncensored, though I heard that most of Nicole Richie's swearing, including f**k, made it on air (east and central, don't know about mountain and west).

Technology can be great, I just don't like others telling what I can and can't do to enjoy technology.

I'll stop my digressing now.

I don't think HOA's should be though of as the evil empire (although some certainly would like to rule that way). There are certainly going to be issues that could be dealt with in one way or another and we may take exception to this or that but the basic fundamental is to protect your investment. Again I recognize that many HOA's may get carried away with this goal but I would like to believe that in general HOA's are more beneficial than not. Don't take this wrong...I'm not saying they are for everyone either. And I'm not saying that folks who don't live in an HOA controlled area are wrong. I certainly have no issue with Scooper and his desire to let his woods be natural, or Mr Video (or jm) to have their satellite dishes. That is fine for them, but it's not for me (ie, it's not my thing, I'm not into that) - to each his own. I also do not have issues with the FCC allowing anyone to put up an OTA or DBS antenna. That is the right thing to allow. But OTOH, I don't want my sensibilities and views blighted by some neighbors interpretation of their rights to be pigs. And that is exactly what happened to me in my last house. That neighbor thought his backyard was for storing anything that he was not using any longer - like beer bottles, gas tanks from beat up Chevy's, and plastic bottles.....he must have had tens of 1000's of plastic bottles strewn across the back yard. There were times I'd be sitting on my deck and the neighbors patio door would be flung open and some plastic or glass object would be hurtling thru the air. And it sat where it landed, never to be picked up or looked at again. Except for the several dozen he used to ring his trees (I would never have thought to use empty beer bottles in such a vile and vulgar manner). Not coincidentally, I took a loss selling that house and vowed never to have to deal with that again. In the end I decided an HOA controlled area was a wiser way to avoid that problem as compared to something along the lines of say, a small thermo-nuclear device.

Originally posted by Geof
... And that is exactly what happened to me in my last house. That neighbor thought his backyard was for storing anything that he was not using any longer - like beer bottles, gas tanks from beat up Chevy's, and plastic bottles.....he must have had tens of 1000's of plastic bottles strewn across the back yard. There were times I'd be sitting on my deck and the neighbors patio door would be flung open and some plastic or glass object would be hurtling thru the air. And it sat where it landed, never to be picked up or looked at again. Except for the several dozen he used to ring his trees (I would ever have thought to use empty beer bottles in such a vile and vulgar manner).

This problem could have been taken care of my the local authorities. Normally there are laws against this kind of trash build-up.

An HOA wasn't needed for that problem.

Originally posted by Geof
But OTOH, I don't want my sensibilities and views blighted by some neighbors interpretation of their rights to be pigs. And that is exactly what happened to me in my last house. That neighbor thought his backyard was for storing anything that he was not using any longer - like beer bottles, gas tanks from beat up Chevy's, and plastic bottles.....

Well I did finally sell those gas tanks on ebay (had to make room for the rusted out fenders)

Oh, and you know all those power tools I borrowed and never returned....

Anyway, we sure do miss you around here though, Geof.

Originally posted by mrvideo
This problem could have been taken care of my the local authorities. Normally there are laws against this kind of trash build-up.

An HOA wasn't needed for that problem. Some of the problem could have been rectified by the authorities but not all of it. The folks were pigs....you can't regulate them into not being pigs. The broken down rusted cars (that they drove everyday), the house that needed painting, the list goes on and on.

Gee Dan.....I didn't know that :)

Just to throw in my own $0.02 on the HOA issue, I have a 12 foot dish, a 3.5 foot dish (with a second one coming in the mail soon), a smaller Direct TV dish, and my RS UHF yagi in the back yard. I 'hid' them as best I could among trees and behind fences so my neighbor behind me doesn't see them, and they are not generally visible from the front. I also talked to all my neighbors before I put them up and tried to insure them I would do what I could to keep them low and below the general sight level. The way I have them located, only one of my neighbors can even see them, and then only from his upstairs windows. If he is in his back yard on his patio they are not visible except for maybe the top couple feet of the big dish.

The problem I have with HOA's is that they seem to have taken over the world. When I moved back to Boulder in '97 I told my Realtor I would NOT buy anything in an HOA area, so I could have my C-Band dish. We had to eliminate about 95% of the Boulder community, and as for buying anything brand new, there literally wasn't anything built in a non-HOA area. I could not afford to buy 3 acres of land not in a new subdivision to avoid the HOA process, so I was pretty much stuck buying an older home in one of the few neighborhoods that didn't have an HOA. I pretty much had 2 or 3 older neighborhoods to choose from and that was about it. I understand why people live in HOA areas and if that's your bag that is fine, but I resent the fact that 95% of new homes now come with a built in HOA. I can't believe that 95% of the population likes HOA's, which tells me there are a lot of people getting stuck with something they really don't want. What it seems to be for those of us who will not live in a HOA area is that we are free to live where we want, as long as we are rich. If we can only afford to live in an 'average' price house and want something new, we are forced to accept the HOA that comes with it.

As for who is to blame for the problem in Denver, it would seem that anyone who gets a letter from an HOA should forward a copy immediately to the (S)CARE folks. It really seem only fair that they should deal with the problem, since if it wasn't for them, few of us would be worried about putting up outdoor antennas in the first place. Tell your HOA to sue (S)CARE if they don't like your FCC legal antenna.

Originally posted by mrvideo
This problem could have been taken care of my the local authorities. Normally there are laws against this kind of trash build-up.

An HOA wasn't needed for that problem.

Maybe, Maybe not. In my case I had invested a lot of sweat equity, and money in improvements to my house, landscaping, building a deck, hot tub, home theater room in the basement, etc, yet when I went to sell, the main comments from perspective buyers was that they didn't like the purple house next door. Was it his right to paint his house Purple? Sure it was, but isn't it also my right to retain some of my hard earned investment? This was my reason for the HOA. Don't get me wrong, I have my issues with them. I get my nasty warning letters in the mail, because I left mulch in my driveway one day too long. But that's what I signed on for. I had a choice, no one held a gun to my head and forced me to sign.

Unfortunately it's an imperfect world and things like HOA are needed to encourage people to something we should automatically do.... Like having consideration for our neighbors.

Originally posted by ottodog

Unfortunately it's an imperfect world and things like HOA are needed to encourage people to something we should automatically do.... Like having consideration for our neighbors. Amen.

jm, You're right, 95% of the neighborhoods should not be HOA's...

I haven't seen this much action in the thread for a long time :)

While I'm in principle against HOAs (Canada is a socialistic enough place, I thought this was the land of the free etc), my HOA recently did something very cool. Currently, each homeowner is responsible for contracting their own garbage pickup. This means that every Tuesday, trucks from 5 different companies come down our streets, causing undue wear and tear, and just generally being inefficient. Our HOA just signed a contract with one of those companies to do garbage pickup for everybody. Our HOA fees will go up $9/month, but I'll do away with my $18/month trash bill. And hopefully our streets won't get torn up quite as quickly with only 1/5th of the garbage truck traffic every week.

Originally posted by dr_mal
I haven't seen this much action in the thread for a long time :)

While I'm in principle against HOAs (Canada is a socialistic enough place, I thought this was the land of the free etc), my HOA recently did something very cool. Currently, each homeowner is responsible for contracting their own garbage pickup. This means that every Tuesday, trucks from 5 different companies come down our streets, causing undue wear and tear, and just generally being inefficient. Our HOA just signed a contract with one of those companies to do garbage pickup for everybody. Our HOA fees will go up $9/month, but I'll do away with my $18/month trash bill. And hopefully our streets won't get torn up quite as quickly with only 1/5th of the garbage truck traffic every week.

WHAT! One trash company! What about the other competing trash companies? The HOA is forcing you to use a single trash company? This has got to be unconstitutional. I think we need the FCC to rule on this!!

Sorry, Sorry, I just couldn't resist
:D :D :D

Yeah, those were the arguments in the annual meeting where a majority of homeowners authorized the board to pursue this plan. I did the quick math in my head, and voted to approve.

Yeah, I have to agree. It's very nice. The City of Thornton is the only one allowed to pick up our trash. They even provide the industrial strength trash cans.

My neighborhood was serviced by two companies, one very expensive and with mediocre service (except for the billing department which was always on time), the other company gave us twice as much pick up for a lower price and also did not charge for extra curbside stuff on certain dates.

Who needs an HOA??? In our case the company with the poor business and worse service bought the company with better service and now we only have one company in our neighborhood picking up the trash. Of course our rates went up and our service got worse. Didn't need 'no stinkin' HOA to solve that problem here in Boulder. Good old American Corporate Greed took care of the issue!
:D

Also from experience, the local authorities = one zoning inspector for 20, 30, or 40 thousand residences in unincorporated areas of a county, (can you say Jeffco?) are very ineffective in enforcement of covenants. It can take months or years to get the pop bottle trash heep cleaned up.

I had an experience where the house across the street from me was rented out by HUD. The renter did not have trash service and threw all this trash in his back yard. He also kept 55 gallon barrels in this front yard, and did nothing to his 3 ft tall grass and weeds. Neighbors finally got the Health Department to come clean it up. The smell was unbelievable.

After the clean up "scumbag" as we used to call him, did finally get a lawnmower and began cutting his grass regularly. He cut it every night between 1:00 and 4:00 A.M. !!!!!

I took a loss selling my house to get away from the mess and stress this kind of situation causes and I am definitely in favor of HOA's.

Dang, and I thought the purple house was bad..

Kind of off topic, but a strange find. TitanTV has the Denver/Colts game on Dec 21st listed as HD on KUSA. I called Don, and he said that they are going to transmit it, but in standard Def.
Hopefully, this won't blackout ESPNHD for us. That would suck!

Usually the ESPN games are not blacked out. They make an agreement to carry them OTA (used to be on KMGH) since any one without cable or satellite would be out of luck.

I would expect to see it on ESPN-HD.

I'm just glad you guys stopped "talkin' trash". I was going to have to call for a moderator. :D

Hey all..just had to comment on this one. Someone said there was a "right" way to do an antenna installation. I agree. As the purpose is to receive a signal. The "right" way is to put it where it will do that. If that means 40' above the peak of ones roof, that is where the "right" way will place it.

I have 6 antennas on my roof and a 60 foot pole with an omni on it strapped to the house. I have a pole that holds my TV aperiodic that is 25 feet in the middle of my roof...at the peak. Half way down that I take a 60 degree sloper that goes to a 10 foot mast in my back yard. I tried to do this the "right" way as the ARRL handbook dictates.

I have had a few discussions with my neighbors about the antennas. My position is that I think form an engineering standpoint that they are quite beautiful. In addition one must actually go out of their way to LOOK UP to even see them. I have a two story house. Someone walking down the street, or someone from the houses on the block that are single story (the majority) mus actually put their head at an unnatural angle to see them at all. I really disagree with the notion that we should go through our lives actively seeking something to bitch about.

I actually have no clue why people object to someone having an antenna mounted on their house in any conceivable location. It is simply not the same as painting the house and fence purple (though this...in the proper shade may look good to some). One could say that it is a matter of taste and that they cannot avoid seeing the purple when walking or riding down the street. With an antenna it is not shaped as a matter of taste...nor put there for shock factor, it is there to do a specific job for which it's configuration was designed.

Some folks here are starting to sound a bit too much like SCARE.

This is not meant to aggravate anyone at all, simply to express my particular outlook.

Phil P

Originally posted by ppasteur


I have 6 antennas on my roof and a 60 foot pole with an omni on it strapped to the house. I have a pole that holds my TV aperiodic that is 25 feet in the middle of my roof...at the peak. Half way down that I take a 60 degree sloper that goes to a 10 foot mast in my back yard. I tried to do this the "right" way as the ARRL handbook dictates.
Phil P

Hey Can I get a picture of that, I'd like to send it to my HOA and tell them "look what I'm putting up next weekend". If they say yeah, can you help me with mine. With all of that,... do you get KMGH. :-)

After further review... I have to overturn the call made on the field.

Based on MY situation, with MY equipment, I now think that the linear stretch KWGN is using is indeed my preference.

Since I have NO AR controls on my 1080i input, if I watch that input, I just watch what is transmitted. But I've noticed that if I watch the 480i output from my Sammy T150, it looks almost as good as the 1080i on upconverted content, and it looks a whole lot better than the analog station.

I prefer this non-critical watching using my TV's non-linear stretch. I can make this happen with any of the formats by setting the 150 to output to a 4:3 TV. But with KWGN's stretch, if I watch through my 480i input, it automatically turns thier linear stretch into my "normal" viewing, slightly zoomed, non-linear stretch. This makes it the most simple channel for me. I can also force it into 4:3 with my TV's AR menu.

So Dave, good news, at least one person who now prefers the stretch.

Greg

Originally posted by JMartinko
Of course our rates went up and our service got worse. Didn't need 'no stinkin' HOA to solve that problem here in Boulder.

I'm confused. The city doesn't pick up the trash? I've never lived in a city where the city didn't pick up the trash as part of city services (residential only).

Originally posted by frottage
Actually the gestapo mandates that I have various areas tested and "certified" by an "installer" that they are not suitable for OTA reception before I can roof mount (they actually have a form to fill out). Now I could bs the form and slap my EE degree in front of them and tell then where I *really* want to put the antenna, but until the terk proves totally inadequate, I'd rather save my energy. Even then it limits the aerial diameter to 39". Yeah...that's what I get for living in "Yuppie ville"...I mean Highlands Ranch.

Doug

Read the FCC ruling very close, and you will see a section that says the HOA cannot put an undue cost to the home owner.

Section B Restriction on Reception

Para 17 Definition of Impair
1. A regulation or restriction that unreasonably delays or prevents antenna installation, maintenance and use
a. Procedural requirements – provisions requiring the approval of community associations or local zoning boards prior to the installation of TVBS, MMDS, or DBS antennas
b. Requirements for permits and/or fees
c. Local condition involving safety or historic preservation may justify imposition of prior approval.
2. Unreasonable increases the costs of installation, (para 18) maintenance or of reception devices


There is also a section that requires the HOA to have in their bylaws an prefered location to install an antena. If they do not have a preferred location, they can not put an undue cost to have your site surveyed to find a location. If you cannot receive an suitable signal at their prefered loction, you can put the antenna where you wish.

.

frottage - clearly, your HOA's regulations are NOT in compliance with the OTARD - READ IT (It's the link in my sig) ! If you have questions about it after reading, ask on the forums.

ITem 1 - the survey requirement - see rhdonkin's post just above

Item 2 - the 39 inch limit is for DBS dishes - NOT for Over The Air (OTA) antennas. OTA antennas can be any size required to ensure adequate reception of the signal so long as it's for a "local broadcast TV station". Also, there is a limit to how high above your roofline is covered in the OTARD - it's 12 feet. If you stay below that, you're covered. You can go above provided you get permission from the appropriate places (re. - the HOA board, county safety type agency).

Item 3 - If the HOA tells you what you're doing is against their rules, tell them to take it to the FCC- the enforcement agency of the OTARD and the FINAL Authority. It's up to the HOA to validate their restrictions to the FCC - not you to invalidate them.

Originally posted by rhdonkin
Read the FCC ruling very close, and you will see a section that says the HOA cannot put an undue cost to the home owner.

Section B Restriction on Reception

<snip>


There is also a section that requires the HOA to have in their bylaws an preferred location to install an antenna. If they do not have a preferred location, they can not put an undue cost to have your site surveyed to find a location. If you cannot receive an suitable signal at their preferred location, you can put the antenna where you wish.

.

They do have preferred locations listed http://www.hrcaonline.org/architectural/antenna.asp
I'm just having "concerns" about how hard it is to get permission to put an aerial up, or as I'm starting to learn from here, I don't need permission at all from them which is what I believe it should be. One good thing is that ABC DT seems to still be low power so I can claim that in order to get an appectable signal, I needed to roof mount with a decent size antenna....hummm, I used to curse abc for its low power DT transmission and now I can use them as my scapegoat.

What worries me is the submittal form at the bottom....that's what makes me concerned that I need their permission first...any thoughts on this or should I tell them that that requirement violates the FCC ruling or maybe just submit it blacnk with a copy of the ruling.

Doug

You don't need permission. Put it up and let them complain as they are going to do anyway. Just don't let it get to you when they get frustrated that they are powerless to do anything about it.

Originally posted by frottage
What worries me is the submittal form at the bottom....that's what makes me concerned that I need their permission first...any thoughts on this or should I tell them that that requirement violates the FCC ruling or maybe just submit it blacnk with a copy of the ruling.

Submit it blank with a copy of the ruling, highlighting the appropriate section(s). Let them know that even returning the form, blank, is a violation of the law, since it made you delay the installtion.

You don't need their permission.
Personally if it were me I would submit the form before doing the work if my schedule permitted. It might help keep you on friendlier terms with the HOA. OTOH, if you wanted to do the work tomorrow the form submission wouldn't stop me (but I would submit the form after the fact).
I would also recommend that you at least try to follow their preferred antenna locations - that way you can say you tried it there and it didn't work.

EDIT: Personally I don't think antagonizing the HOA will get you anywhere.....I would try to play along (to an extent) rather than "flip them off" in an act of defiance. You don't need them finding other issues (unrelated to the antenna) for which they can harass you.

D@mn Geof! You did it to me again! :D

Well for that matter, before going to all the hassle he might just try a better antenna in an attic install. I believe he said he was using a terk omni-directional and didnt say where it the house it was located. It obviously is doing a piss poor job though because of the results he said he was getting. I believe he said he wasnt getting KRMA for example on either tuner. Highlands Ranch is one of the more friendly areas for OTA reception, including KMGH.

Originally posted by Geof
Personally I don't think antagonizing the HOA will get you anywhere.....I would try to play along (to an extent) rather than "flip them off" in an act of defiance. You don't need them finding other issues (unrelated to the antenna) for which they can harass you.

Oh boy. If an HOA does start harrassing you because of the antenna issue, a civil suit would soon shut them up, since you would be able to prove that all of their new issues have existed for a while that they only started harrassing you about them because they didn't like losing regarding the antenna issue.

Of course you'd go before the board before hand and explain what your course of action will be if they don't knock it off. Federal law says that you have the right and they need to deal with it. I personally would not take crap from the HOA board just because they were sore losers.

YMMV :D

All I'm saying is a little courtesy may go a long ways towards receiving courtesy. Why antagonize them when it's not necessary.....how hard is it to fill out the damn little form? Hey I can be a defiant as the next guy and (trust me) I've told my share of folks to "f___-off". I just don't recommend starting the process that way......

But, returning the form blank, with the FCC ruling/law attached, with appropriate sections marked, is a polite way of informing the HOA that they are violating the law. When they start harrassing you as a result, then they started being nasty, not you.

You did your duty by informing them that they are in error with their "process." By filling out the form and returning it, you are giving them leeway to coontinue doing it. They need to be informed of the error of their ways.

Originally posted by mrvideo
Submit it blank with a copy of the ruling, highlighting the appropriate section(s). Let them know that even returning the form, blank, is a violation of the law, since it made you delay the installtion.

NICE...they already hate me...I got a lady fired/moved to another position about 2 years ago after I went above the HOA and complained to the board of directors about their threats (fines, loss of privileges, maybe even a scarlet letter) to make me take a fence down...a fence that they [the HOA] approved 3 years prior.

Still I agree with Geof in a way. I will try it their way and complete the form, along with a copy of the FCC ruling just so that they know that my HOA BS meter is already turned on and that not being able to install on *MY* rooftop is *not* an acceptable answer.

Doug

Originally posted by DP1
Well for that matter, before going to all the hassle he might just try a better antenna in an attic install. I believe he said he was using a terk omni-directional and didnt say where it the house it was located. It obviously is doing a piss poor job though because of the results he said he was getting. I believe he said he wasnt getting KRMA for example on either tuner. Highlands Ranch is one of the more friendly areas for OTA reception, including KMGH.

That is my first choice...however, cable running wise it would be more convenient outside since I didn't see any clear way to get the antenna feed to the receiver from the attic. I guess I could go from the attic to the outside then back inside, but that is kind of a PITA. The station I'm not receiving is KMGH DT which a lot of people aren't receiving as I understand from past posts. FOX, NBC, CBS, and even KWGN (although it resets my sammy 160 receiver) are receivable, although the CBS and Fox reception is very low....if I sneeze too close to the terk antenna (mounted outside, btw) I can lose signal or get dropouts :)

The sony atsc tuner is much weaker and I only get the fox and nbc DT stations, so I guess I will use that sets tuner as my signal meter to justify putting an aerial on the roof if I can't figure out a decent way to do an attic install.

Doug

Doug,

As a borad member for my HOA we attended a workshop by these people - you might want to spend some time on their web site and also look into hiring them if you need a law firm. I was impressed with them;

http://www.ortenhindman.com/index.html

Reggie

Change of subject just for a moment...

Is anyone having trouble with KCNC?

I'm sure it's not my antenna because I finally have HD on channel 2 !! (Pretty cool)

Originally posted by rightslot
Change of subject just for a moment...

Is anyone having trouble with KCNC?

I'm sure it's not my antenna because I finally have HD on channel 2 !! (Pretty cool) Let's see, KWGN-DT is broadcasting an Effective Radiated Power of something like 490,000 Watts from Lookout Mountain and KCNC-DT is broadcasting something like 10,000 Watts from a Downtown building. The KWGN-DT power level is 49 times more than the KCNC-DT signal power. Would you like to reconsider the "I'm sure it's not my antenna because I finally have HD on channel 2" statement again?

Have you looked at the signal strength readings on your receiver?

no problems with KCNC-DT at noon today. I even had enough signal to be without any breakups. I don't believe you are getting actual HD during the day from KWGN-DT: it is 1080i but it is a stretched SD picture.

I had no problem with KCNC-DT this morning from 6-7.

Originally posted by Geof
Let's see, KWGN-DT is broadcasting an Effective Radiated Power of something like 490,000 Watts from Lookout Mountain and KCNC-DT is broadcasting something like 10,000 Watts from a Downtown building. The KWGN-DT power level is 49 times more than the KCNC-DT signal power. Would you like to reconsider the "I'm sure it's not my antenna because I finally have HD on channel 2" statement again?

Have you looked at the signal strength readings on your receiver?

I didn't know that KWGN was broadcasting at that much power! But I'm glad.

But I didn't think it was my antenna because I bought a new antenna yesterday (becasue I was having trouble with Channel 4) and soon as I pluged it in----- pop! --- in comes KCNC. So I was happy.

This morning befor coming to work I notice the "no signal" deal and found it out AGAIN.

Channnels 9, 2, & 31, just fine. {7, KMGH never has come in-like most of my area}

So, I wondered if it was just me?

I suspect there would be a lot of posts discussing an issue with KCNC if they were having a problem.

It's good you bought a better antenna but (and I know I am harping on this) you need to look at the signal levels using the meter in your STB. Only then will you know what kind of signal levels you have. You also need to use this meter to fine tune your antenna position. If you've done this then please tell us what your readings are. If you have not done this you are going to go thru a seemingly never ending process of trial and error. Just because you get KCNC one day does not mean you'll get it the next day unless you have adequate margin. If your signal is border-line you'll need to try a different antenna location, or a different antenna, and do not use any splitters (etc) between the antenna and STB. And keep in mind that inches (hell 1/2 inch) can make a difference in picture or no picture, margin or no margin.

Originally posted by Geof
Let's see, KWGN-DT is broadcasting an Effective Radiated Power of something like 490,000 Watts from Lookout Mountain and KCNC-DT is broadcasting something like 10,000 Watts from a Downtown building. The KWGN-DT power level is 49 times more than the KCNC-DT signal power. Would you like to reconsider the "I'm sure it's not my antenna because I finally have HD on channel 2" statement again?

Have you looked at the signal strength readings on your receiver?

No wonder my Sammy 160 receiver reboots when I tune to KWGN....too much power...anybody mind if I call them and tell them to "turn it down" :)

Doug

Originally posted by rightslot
But I didn't think it was my antenna because I bought a new antenna yesterday (becasue I was having trouble with Channel 4) and soon as I pluged it in----- pop! --- in comes KCNC. So I was happy.

This morning befor coming to work I notice the "no signal" deal and found it out AGAIN.

Channnels 9, 2, & 31, just fine. {7, KMGH never has come in-like most of my area}

So, I wondered if it was just me?
Keep in mind that KCNC is the only one of the low-power Republic building stations in the UHF thirties. KRMA is on channel 18, KUSA is on 16. Other things being equal, higher-numbered stations are harder to receive either in analog or digital. When setting up my antenna, I found KCNC to be the most sensitive, in terms of the number of degrees rotation within which I could pick it up.

Channels 32 and 34 have enough higher power and a better location (Lookout) to overcome the disadvantage of higher UHF frequency.

Originally posted by Geof
I suspect there would be a lot of posts discussing an issue with KCNC if they were having a problem.

It's good you bought a better antenna but (and I know I am harping on this) you need to look at the signal levels using the meter in your STB. Only then will you know what kind of signal levels you have. You also need to use this meter to fine tune your antenna position. If you've done this then please tell us what your readings are. If you have not done this you are going to go thru a seemingly never ending process of trial and error. Just because you get KCNC one day does not mean you'll get it the next day unless you have adequate margin. If your signal is border-line you'll need to try a different antenna location, or a different antenna, and do not use any splitters (etc) between the antenna and STB. And keep in mind that inches (hell 1/2 inch) can make a difference in picture or no picture, margin or no margin.

Once again I'm at work and can not wait 'till I get home. I DID see the meter check on the STB remote. Channel 4 was at the NOTHING level.
all the others were at NORMAN or GOOD.

I notice at times I get large signal swings on KCNC. This morning 6:30 to 7:00 AM was one of those times. I have not moved my antenna and the other stations were ok. It could be the situation mentioned above, but I did not notice this problem untill a couple of weeks ago.

Originally posted by rightslot

But I didn't think it was my antenna because I bought a new antenna yesterday

rightslot,

What kind of antenna did you end up getting? Did you find a silver sensor locally? I'd like to try one out and see if I can get the big one off my roof.

Anyone else find a silver sensor locally? I don't want to go through the hassle of ordering one and then sending it back if it doesn't do the job.