Aurora should be covered by the waiver.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Being in the Mountain time zone, we're scheduled to get the LA feed, so by my math, we'll get shows 2 hours later than on KCNC. Great news for timeshifting.

That sucks. The East Cost feed aligns with our standard viewing times much better than the west cost feed. That would work better for timeshifting, too.
:(

I wonder if the E/W thing is set in stone though? What difference does it really make as to which you get from anyone's besides your own point of view.

It has nothing to do with hardware..they can flip the switch for either one for any sub. You should be able to pick. For that matter, you should have the option to even get both if you want.

The last couple of times I tuned into KDVR-DT, it seemed like the lip sync was a problem again for Fox programming. It seemed like the audio was slightly ahead of the video.

I wonder why this problem keeps coming back. It certainly is distracting.

Mark

Could because they have to scale their 480i network feed to 480p in-house and their de-interlacer may be introducing synching issues. This sometimes can happen if things aren't calibrated and set correctly, or the equipment isn't the best (the de-interlacer introduces a lag time where it allows the audio to get ahead of the video).

Dan

For hose of you subscribing to DirectTV, have SHOHD, and are using a Hughes E86 STB.

Any ideas why DirectTV SHOHD, Channel 543 is not listing the "HD" designation on any of it's programs in the EPG anymore? There are many HD programs on SHOHD, but the "HD" designation is not being listed like it used to be.

OK, I'm worried about something.

According to this thread, (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=347953&perpage=20&pagenumber=8) if there is an overlapping DMA you need to get a waiver from that station to get the HD station. This site (http://directvdnseligibility.decisionmark.com/app/AddressEntry.asp) says I get a grade B signal from KGWN Cheyenne (I live in Longmont).

I sure hope I don't need to get a Cheyenne waiver! My neighbor get CBS HD on Dish as we speak, but now I'm worried.

It's been a while, but back when I got my waiver, I believe that I had to get waivers from both Colorado Springs AND Cheyenne CBS stations. Once they were faxed to E*, the NY CBS feed was turned on within about 15 minutes.

I know that we discussed it in depth previously, but for those of you dealing with HOAs, this might be an option to get them off of your back:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=350676

Superbowl

My CBS signal strength is poor. Looks like DirectTV and CBS are going to transmit superbowl in HD. If so, which channel?
Is there a superbowl pay perview available with direct tV?

No Superbowl PPV, but if you're in the metro Denver area, you should be eligible to get CBS-HD over D*. We don't know what channel, or on what day, it'll show up yet, but they're hyping it for the Superbowl, so it should be in the next couple of weeks at least.

Thanks dr_mal. The Direct TV CSRs don't know anything about this. I am currently subscribed to HD package. Should I subsribe to local channels to get CBS-HD?

I'm curious as to what might actually be the better picture, E* CBS feed from NY or L.A., or KCNC OTA? Thoughts?

kumarv - I think the latest information is that you have to have the local channel package to get CBS-HD from D*.

Jetlag - I'd assume KCNC-DT would have a better picture. AFAIK, they use close to the full 19.2mbps bandwidth where D* and E* are most certainly going to be losing bits from the original feed.

Good article about HD, and HD in Denver in particular, in today's Rocky. Generally, the writer got it mostly right.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/technology/article/0,1299,DRMN_49_2569394,00.html

I did send him email on a few points:


Just wanted to thank you for the great article on HDTV; you've done your readers a real service. Those of us who have been tagged as "early adopters" need the mainstream media to educate the public. As you probably discovered, no matter how hard you -- or any other writer for that matter -- try, words alone cannot describe HD; you have to see it to understand the advantages of the technology!

And since I have your ear, my Journalism major is kicking in; here are some minor facts that you missed:

Under the Less Flicker callout, you stated that "Most HDTV sets use progressive scanning, ...". The standard HDTV resolution is 1080i, the "i" is for interlaced; 480p -- "p" for progressive -- is a digital, but not hi-def, signal. 720p (used by ABC and others) is considered hi-def, but 1080i is the standard. Believe me, there is no flicker at 1080i.

Later you wrote that the technology "found a market .... to watch DVDs in high definition." Again the best currently available DVD resolution is 480p which is touted as EDTV " Enhanced Definition TV" not hi-def. You wrote correctly that "not all digital TV is high definition"; 480p falls in that category. There is work being done to develop hi-def DVD software and hardware, but we are several years away from that. Now, I do own a video processor which up-converts 480i to 1080i, allowing me to watch DVDs at the higher rez. But, to use your analogy, it is like recording a cassette tape onto a CD -- the limitations of the source material are still there. And video processors are way, way beyond the scope of your article.

In your graph about over-the-air reception, you made reference to an needing an antenna "which can cost several hundred dollars extra." I have two HDTVs, each connected to OTA signals with simple antennas from Radio Shack. One, on my roof, cost $21.95. The other, a simple bow-tie, was $9.99 or so. They work fine for me in Wheat Ridge. While you say "only a limited number of consumers can receive HDTV signals from local broadcasters", my experience tells me virtually anyone in the metro area can receive one or more HD OTA signal. It is easier than you think.

But, in my mind, the reference to getting hi-def over-the-air from "Denver's 7" is the biggest problem. Channels 4, 6, and 9 are broadcasting from the top of Republic Plaza, albeit at lowered power until the Lookout tower is completed. These are the signals I am receiving. Channel 7 is broadcasting from the top of its studio building, and almost no one can receive the ABC offerings. The joke among the user group of Denver HDTV owners is that anyone who lives outside of Channel 7's parking lot is out of luck. You would have been OK choosing 4, 6, or 9. But touting Channel 7 for OTA penalizes the stations that are trying to do it right until the tower is built.

For more information, go here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28456; this user group has been around since before I bought my first HDTV in '99!

Again, thanks for getting the bit stream into the mainstream!

About that article: What about us little guys in Northern Colorado who are lucky to get one or two stations with Herculian efforts (Fox doesn't count until it really is HD)? We're stuck with half*assed attempts by Wyoming stations to get on the air, and one or two don't even want to do HD!!

We need those supertowers pronto!! Why isn't the news media talking about that!? Pha to Republic Plaza, that does many of us no good!!

Dan

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman


We need those supertowers pronto!! Why isn't the news media talking about that!? Pha to Republic Plaza, that does many of us no good!!

Dan And there are those of us much closer to town than you in the same boat for some stations. That said what is there to talk about regarding the new tower? Asides from not knowing it's current status and the status of the lawsuit there's probably not much to say (and I doubt the lawsuit is making news just yet or we would have heard about it). Unfortunatley the tower is still a long ways off....:(

Originally posted by dr_mal
No Superbowl PPV, .............

Try telling that to my Visa bills over the last 5 years. After the literally thousands I have spent on my HD set and the myriad of dishes and Yagi's in the back yard largely to watch the last 4 Super Bowls in HD your telling me its NOT PPV. Boy have I got news for you. I have PAID and PAID and PAID for this view. Not PPV my A$$. :D

As for the waiver issues, I can't see how D* can advertise it will be available for the SB if everyone has to go out and get waivers from C.Springs and/or Cheyenne. No way you can do all that in two weeks. From the press release it sure seems they are assuming if you qualify for the Denver locals, you can qualify for the CBS feed. That would be common sense, which of course is the reason everyone is worried, and makes me think we are missing something here. Common Sense and Network TV reception aren't usually found in the same sentence.
:rolleyes:


Originally posted by Jetlag
I'm curious as to what might actually be the better picture, E* CBS feed from NY or L.A., or KCNC OTA? Thoughts?
Actually the best feed should be the affiliate feed on C-Band to the local stations, since that is as good as it can get. :D After that I would put money on the local KCNC OTA feed since AFAIK they do nothing but pass on the affiliate feed directly as a 'bent pipe' signal. I notice in some of the local commercial spots in this weekend's games they don't even try to insert the local commercials into the HD feed. Who knows what E* and DTV* do to the signals as they retransmit them?

Originally posted by JMartinko
Try telling that to my Visa bills over the last 5 years. After the literally thousands I have spent on my HD set and the myriad of dishes and Yagi's in the back yard largely to watch the last 4 Super Bowls in HD your telling me its NOT PPV. Boy have I got news for you. I have PAID and PAID and PAID for this view. Not PPV my A$$. :D
OK, you got me :) At least I can amortize my bills over several NHL games a year...

Originally posted by dr_mal
OK, you got me :) At least I can amortize my bills over several NHL games a year...
Yes, fortunately I too have watched HD hockey and also some of the movies on HBO and Showtime as well as a few other fun events like the Masters etc. in HD for a few years. Still, by the time you add up all the costs (especially if you throw in the cost of my Proceed AVP along with the TV and Sat receivers) I'm betting it is a LOT more than $10 a program.

BTW, maybe the reference in the RMNews article to the cost of the antenna is really correct. You probably would need to spend 'several hundred dollars' on your antenna to get KMGH outside of the parking lot area. The claim that a $21 antenna can be used obviously is NOT about KMGH. Maybe the author was more correct than we think. For several hundred dollars you could buy a professional 'single frequency' array for KMGH only and maybe mount it on a 50 foot high tower. That might almost be enough in some parts of south Denver.
:D

Originally posted by Jetlag
I'm curious as to what might actually be the better picture, E* CBS feed from NY or L.A., or KCNC OTA? Thoughts?
One additional thing we do know for sure, the D* and E* feeds will also be delayed about 3-5 seconds after the locals due to all the processing required and the turnaround time between earth and the respective satellites.

I get Directv east and west coast feed of the major nextworks plus the HD package
What are my chances of seeing the superbowl in HDTV?

Reggie

Reggie, If you qualify for the out of market networks already, I doubt you will have a problem since someone would have had to allow you a waiver at one time or the other. I don't think it can be rescinded.
Jeff

Help!

I'm not getting it. What is the * for D* ?

What is the * for E* ?

If you miss this forum for a week or so, you get off the lingo fast.

Just catch me up-------please.

E* = Echostar/Dishnetwork

D* = DirecTV

Thanks!!
Thanks!!

Now one other. I don't think so, but reading these notes makes me wonder...

Is there ANYWAY I can watch the SuperBowl From my dish (i have directv) or is it over the air ONLY???

I would guess that if you receive any CBS station via D* that you will get the game as long as you are tuned to that channel.

One of the bad results of watching the Avs on HDNet or Fox on Directv is the delay - if one is trying to listen to Mike Haynes coverage on 950AM. A one second delay is not too bad but anything over 3 seconds in hockey is too much - and typically it is between 5 and 10 seconds.

Sometimes I will put up with the delay just to hear Mikes coverage. He is so good.

Reggie

Hey all,

I'm looking for suggestions for a good antenna to try. I live in Capitol Hill in Denver and can receive pretty much all the local channels except KWGN. I'm assuming I'm having multipath issues due to tall buildings around me. I'm on the third floor of a condo building and would be willing to try a not-too-big antenna on my balcony, but I don't want a huge eyesore antenna.

Is there anyone else in downtown with similar problems? I bought a silver sensor from BB, and I can get any other channel (with careful antenna positioning for Fox and channel 7 especially) except KWGN. I totally wanna see Smallville in HD, so please help me out! :) I've got a Samsung SIRT-151 receiver and can receive enough of a signal for the receiver to recognize channels 2-1 and 2-2, but no image. I already bugged the guys at KWGN and they didn't have any magic solutions, so I'm hoping you all can help me out.

Thanks!
Alan

Originally posted by A4Short
One of the bad results of watching the Avs on HDNet or Fox on Directv is the delay - if one is trying to listen to Mike Haynes coverage on 950AM. A one second delay is not too bad but anything over 3 seconds in hockey is too much - and typically it is between 5 and 10 seconds.

Sometimes I will put up with the delay just to hear Mikes coverage. He is so good.

Reggie

I am the same with the Broncos and Dave Logan on KOA. I noticed the delay was so much shorter when tuning in OTA-HD rather than through E*.

From what I remember when I had Comcast (yuck) it was about 3 seconds delay, and E* was more like 5-7 seconds.

OTA is about 1 or 2 seconds.

Finished! Whatya think? Now it needs to rain or snow so I can test out the fade-proofing (limiting).

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu-max/data/rooffront.jpg

That looks great Tim! Did you paint the dishes yourself or did they just happen to exactly match your shingles?

Originally posted by markdl
That looks great Tim! Did you paint the dishes yourself or did they just happen to exactly match your shingles?
He painted those? And here I was getting excited about transparent aluminum dishes! (which is a reality, by the way)

Originally posted by velo
Hey all,

I'm looking for suggestions for a good antenna to try. I live in Capitol Hill in Denver and can receive pretty much all the local channels except KWGN. I'm assuming I'm having multipath issues due to tall buildings around me. I'm on the third floor of a condo building and would be willing to try a not-too-big antenna on my balcony, but I don't want a huge eyesore antenna.

Is there anyone else in downtown with similar problems? I bought a silver sensor from BB, and I can get any other channel (with careful antenna positioning for Fox and channel 7 especially) except KWGN. I totally wanna see Smallville in HD, so please help me out! :) I've got a Samsung SIRT-151 receiver and can receive enough of a signal for the receiver to recognize channels 2-1 and 2-2, but no image. I already bugged the guys at KWGN and they didn't have any magic solutions, so I'm hoping you all can help me out.

Thanks!
Alan


Alan,

I've got pretty much the same problem in my second-floor condo at 17th & Pearl. No KWGN-DT, so no HD-Smallville for me either, and I've tried just about everything I can think of. Both of the signals from Lookout (32 & 34) show up weakly on both my Samsung and Zenith receivers but won't lock in due to the large V-shaped shadow area created by the downtown skyscrapers. Are you blocked from Lookout by buildings as well?

Right now I receive strong signals with good picture & sound from KCNC-DT, KRMA-DT & KUSA-DT from Republic Plaza and KMGH-DT from the transmitter on their building. For each signal, antennas are placed in very unexpected positions. I believe that in our situation, multipath is actually a plus for these signals. I get great signals from all the Republic transmitters with an antenna not really aimed at Republic at all. Same goes the KMGH's miserable little stick on Speer. Comes in great.

However, multipath is no help with the Lookout signals and may actually be the reason those of us who live in the skyscraper "shadow" can't get Lookout signal locks. Even with KWGN-DT operating at half-power, they are still putting out a lot of signal. And yet a large chunk of population living east of central downtown will have big reception problems until they go full power, or at least increase their power. Same goes for KDVR-DT.

Until then, I'm continuing experiment with some other ideas. Who knows? Maybe I'll hit upon something.

Originally posted by Jetlag
[B]Finished! Whatya think?

That's a work of art. I painted my dish to match brick, but it's nothing compared to yours.

Originally posted by TommyK
[B]I've got pretty much the same problem in my second-floor condo at 17th & Pearl. No KWGN-DT, so no HD-Smallville for me either, and I've tried just about everything I can think of. /B]

Have you tried any outdoor antenna's? Like maybe those "yagi" type? I was thinking of getting that $20 Radio Shack one and give it a try on my balcony. Problem is there's a building due west of me and only about 100' feet away. If only I was a few floors higher, I'd be above it's roof and have a clearer LOS to Lookout Mtn. Maybe I'll just install an antenna on the roof of our building one night after dark and drop a cable down the outside to my window. Think anyone would notice that? ;)

Originally posted by markdl
That looks great Tim! Did you paint the dishes yourself or did they just happen to exactly match your shingles?
Actually, I made them from shingles in one of those high-temp carbon ovens. :D

Actually, 3 cans of spray paint from Home Depot and one can of satin clear. Drew the lines with a black permanent marker. Now getting 110 and 119 at 110 and 114 respectively!

Originally posted by Jetlag
Actually, I made them from shingles in one of those high-temp carbon ovens. :D

Actually, 3 cans of spray paint from Home Depot and one can of satin clear. Drew the lines with a black permanent marker. Now getting 110 and 119 at 110 and 114 respectively! Quite excellent Tim. You da man.

Best installation I've seen yet!

Originally posted by velo
Have you tried any outdoor antenna's? Like maybe those "yagi" type? I was thinking of getting that $20 Radio Shack one and give it a try on my balcony. Problem is there's a building due west of me and only about 100' feet away. If only I was a few floors higher, I'd be above it's roof and have a clearer LOS to Lookout Mtn. Maybe I'll just install an antenna on the roof of our building one night after dark and drop a cable down the outside to my window. Think anyone would notice that? ;)

Sneaking an antenna on my building has crossed my mind too, but it would add only another floor of height and I think chances are slim that would help at all. I have an old outdoor UHF only yagi style antenna that I experimented with indoors with very little success.

If you can get a straight shot at Lookout with a few more floors, you might get KWGN-DT booming in.

The burning question: Would anyone notice if an antenna suddenly popped up on the roof? (Actually, you have the FCC in your corner regarding antennas. Your HOA cannot prohibit you from any reasonable installation of an antenna (including satellite dishes.)

Just a Heads up NHL.


The AVS are in High Def this Thursday on ESPN at 7PM MST. It'll be nice not to have to wait until Midnight to see the repeat because the original HD showing was blacked out.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tvlistings/espnhd/index?

Could someone with a Hughes E86 (or clone) look to see what software version their receiver has (setup menu -> Installation ->System test). Hughes sent me a replacement receiver which was broke and now the replacement for the replacement has an issue with the guide...it keeps adding the D* version of the Denver local stations to the guide and wants to download the guide each evening when I turn it on. Hughes is telling me that problem is not unique to me and to expect a software download in the next couple of weeks. My receiver has version 5046.

I hope either the DTC-210 or Toshiba DST-3100 is a suitable replacement as I am getting tired of the E86 quirks/problems.

Mine updated to 5104 in May of '03. 5046 is like two versions ago IIRC. I think there was like a 509x or something like that somewhere along the line too.

Geof - you may want to hold off replacing the receiver until the HD DirecTivos are out in March/April timeframe. I would think that would be a good replacement :)

Thanks guys.

I thought the software was an older version. The guide is even slower than previous units and I remember the first SW upgrade improved responsiveness a bit. It will be interesting to see if the SW is indeed updated.

Yeah I forgot about the HD Tivo. It may be worth the wait and cost but every STB seems to be released later than announced.....

Originally posted by velo
Hey all,

I'm looking for suggestions for a good antenna to try. I live in Capitol Hill in Denver and can receive pretty much all the local channels except KWGN.


Velo and Tommyk:

From just west of Cheesman Park I installed the $20 Radio Shack "yagi" UHF outdoor antenna in the attic above our 3rd floor home theater. Even through the tile roof I get all the OTA HD channels (via Sony HD300) with all at "good" signal strength or better.

I installed the RShack rotor, too, (about $40) thinking with all the high rise bldgs on both sides, I'd be repositioning the antenna a lot. But I rarely move the antenna. All stations come in "good" or better with antenna pointed to west-s.west, even though Republic Plaza is n.w. from my place (KMGH would be w/s.w). The total of $60 and about 30 min. to install seemed like a good risk relative to the possible reward, and I was pleasantly surprised to get all HD channels with plenty of signal.

And while I don't use the rotor much now, it was worth it for initial positioning and tweaking for best signal strenght. Not having to involve the wife in that is worth $40.

Morning all,

Question for everyone with Samsung T160 STB's; Direct TV has contacted us regarding T160's rebooting after 2-1 has been acquired. Are any of you owners with T160's experiencing this? I need all feedback.

Thanks!

Dave M
KWGN/WB2
2-1,2-2

Hi Dave,

I think it's old news. Probably an issue of D* being too big and slow to respond in a timely manner. :)

My 160 has been a happy camper since just before Christmas. Sorry, I don't have the specific date, but I'm sure you've got records detailing 'when' you did 'what'.

All is well.

Thanks again.

Someone, anyone--------

Talk to me about this Directv HD feed of the SuperBowl

Is it true? Are these just rumors? How are you getting your infomation.?

I see NOTHING on the Drectv site.

I'd sure take the feed from D* over the OTA stuff.

TALK TO ME!

Originally posted by rightslot
Someone, anyone--------

Talk to me about this Directv HD feed of the SuperBowl

Is it true? Are these just rumors? How are you getting your infomation.?

I see NOTHING on the Drectv site.

I'd sure take the feed from D* over the OTA stuff.

TALK TO ME!
Check the "HDTV Programming" AVS Forum Section, it is at the top in the notes area.

CBS information
DirectTV CBS Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=347953)

FOX Information
DirecTV Fox Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=348624)

Enjoy!
:cool:

Man!

I have not been this EXCITED since getting a date with HER. You know------yea, THAT ONE.

This antenna issue has been a pain since day 1. Up and down, and mostly down goes the signal.

I worried about the SuperBowl. Just when I have made all the drinks, food, etc I could see the signal degrading and having to turn to a REGULAR broadcast. Ugggh!!

So, now I'm just waiting for Directv to put something on their site. Something to confirm it all.

I talked to a rep a few minutes ago. He didn't know anything. (or would not tell).

I'm thinking that they will be able to get agreements worked out with ALL the networks before the 1st half of the year is over.

This alone will kick HD and HD TV sets into High Gear. Yea, by the end of 2005 everyday joesmoes will talk about HD like they do Cell Phones.
But most of us will have had it for 2-3 years!

So? How does it feel to be an early adopter?

Originally posted by JKM
Velo and Tommyk:

From just west of Cheesman Park I installed the $20 Radio Shack "yagi" UHF outdoor antenna in the attic above our 3rd floor home theater. Even through the tile roof I get all the OTA HD channels (via Sony HD300) with all at "good" signal strength or better.

I installed the RShack rotor, too, (about $40) thinking with all the high rise bldgs on both sides, I'd be repositioning the antenna a lot. But I rarely move the antenna. All stations come in "good" or better with antenna pointed to west-s.west, even though Republic Plaza is n.w. from my place (KMGH would be w/s.w). The total of $60 and about 30 min. to install seemed like a good risk relative to the possible reward, and I was pleasantly surprised to get all HD channels with plenty of signal.

And while I don't use the rotor much now, it was worth it for initial positioning and tweaking for best signal strenght. Not having to involve the wife in that is worth $40.

I might have to try and figure out a way to mount an outdoor antenna, even if it is for only one signal (KWGN-DT). I'm just weighing the feasability of mounting one versus only the potential of any additional benefit.

As it is, the strong signals I do get are through several walls and smaller structures. I'm amazed at the success I've had. But maybe eliminating at least some of the obstructions with an outdoor antenna might improve my chances of locking in 34. And maybe even 32 as well.

Originally posted by rightslot
I'm thinking that they will be able to get agreements worked out with ALL the networks before the 1st half of the year is over.

Don't get too excited. Dish Network has had CBS in HD for years but that hasn't led to signing up any other networks. Directv adding Fox, in addition to CBS, may have more to do with Murdock owning both Directv and Fox. Besides, I believe only CBS and Fox are O&O in Denver. Therefore, to receive any other out-of-market networks you would have to get a waiver from the local affiliate (doubtful).

But don't get down. Hopefully, the new tower on Lookout will be completed this year bringing high-power HDTV to the masses.

Yea, by the end of 2005 everyday joesmoes will talk about HD like they do Cell Phones.
But most of us will have had it for 2-3 years!

So? How does it feel to be an early adopter?

Rightslot, if you're just getting started now I don't know if you can be called an early adopter. :) You should have been here discussing the state of HDTV in Denver in 1999. :eek:

Not to mention if the newbies want HD locals all they have to do is finally sign up with Comcast..give or take some carriage agreements that have to be worked out. Which will come sooner than you'll ever see HD locals on DBS.

I have no loyalty to DBS it's just that they added HD programming before cable did. But now that cable has gotten around to it they've already passed DBS by. Give or take a couple channels.

If somebody came to me now and asked whether they should go with Dish/DirecTv or cable for HD, I wouldnt have to think long about it. Go with cable.

SP1 - I agree, except for the NFL ticket.

Everyone - I went ahead and asked for a waiver from the Cheyenne CBS station, since I apparently get a Grade B signal from them. Anyone wanting to request waivers from Cheyenne stations, just in case, here are the addresses:

CBS: cbs5gm@sisna.com
FOX: klwy@coffey.com

Hope this helps.

Well as far as NFL-ST goes DirecTv must sell that ala carte if a person wants it that way. So you could still keep (or get) D* just for that and use cable for everything else if you wanted to.

Hey, besides, I dont expect everyone to agree with me. I realize that for some folks cable tv=the devil. ;)

Originally posted by DP1
I realize that for some folks cable tv=the devil. ;)
All of them (cable, D*, E*, local affiliates) are the devil. But as long as they have to compete I feel protected.

Originally posted by DP1
I have no loyalty to DBS it's just that they added HD programming before cable did. But now that cable has gotten around to it they've already passed DBS by. Give or take a couple channels.
I have no loyalty to DBS either, but you'll have to rip my DirecTiVo out of my cold, dead hands. ;)

Originally posted by DP1
If somebody came to me now and asked whether they should go with Dish/DirecTv or cable for HD, I wouldnt have to think long about it. Go with cable.
I used to tell people to wait for a HD PVR but with the no upfront cost and no commitment for cable now I tell people to try cable - they can always change later without losing any sunk costs like a sat receiver.

Originally posted by weldon
I have no loyalty to DBS either, but you'll have to rip my DirecTiVo out of my cold, dead hands. ;)

i hear ya. I've never used one. Course I never used to even bother recording or timeshifting SD programs at all. Now I just timeshift a little bit of HD here and there. Mostly just Network HD. Some HDNet, Disc HD etc.. An HD VCR I have suits me just fine for that.

Originally posted by zanaberry
Rightslot, if you're just getting started now I don't know if you can be called an early adopter. :) You should have been here discussing the state of HDTV in Denver in 1999. :eek:

I hear you. But I'm not JUST NOW GETTING STARTED. I'm relatively new to this forum but not to HD. Not at all.

But without getting into a mine is bigger than yours deal, when I say EARLY ADOPTER I'm speaking of a larger picture than this here. I'm talking about the vast general public.

You know how it is Zanaberry, when you get deep into your hobby (and make no mistake--it IS a hobby), you tend to think that everybody is into it like you are. When in fact, the vast majority of people are JUST NOW getting into DVD. Many, many people still watch home movies on VHS.

What I'm saying is in a short while, HD will be the norm. We will not be using the term "HD" except to explain that a program isn't.

I am new here, I have a question about if I am able to receive the HDTV OTA, I am living in Superior near the ridge between Denver and Superior, wondering if someone from the same area can help me out.

I was planning to buy the HDTV receiver at CC yesterday, the saleman told me several people from Lousiville and Superior area have returned the receivers last couples of months because they couldn't receive anything. I know the best way to verify that is to try it by myself, but it may not be worth to try if no one has EVER been able to receive anything, which may have to involve outdoor antenna installation, so I am wondering if someone can verify if it is even possible, and what kind of antenna, receiver used, etc.

Thanks in advance

Kurt

Originally posted by Jeff Keene


Everyone - I went ahead and asked for a waiver from the Cheyenne CBS station, since I apparently get a Grade B signal from them. Anyone wanting to request waivers from Cheyenne stations, just in case, here are the addresses:

CBS: cbs5gm@sisna.com
FOX: klwy@coffey.com

Hope this helps.

For what it is worth I did not have luck using email to get my waiver from KGWN. I ended up calling the main number off the website and had my waiver in hand via fax in two hours. They also faxed it to E* for me and sent me the original in the mail. This was a few months back so YMMV now.

Originally posted by rightslot
But without getting into a mine is bigger than yours deal, when I say EARLY ADOPTER I'm speaking of a larger picture than this here. I'm talking about the vast general public.

Rightslot, it was just a joke. A joke aimed at the local broadcasters who should have had high-power signals in 1999. Everyone will be an early adopter until you can pick up a 13" TV at Walmart, plug it into the wall and get a perfect digital signal on all the channels.

Ok, joke, joke.

But my point remains, and I agree with you. Yes, Walmart, Target and the like.

How long before HD is THE standard and our children’s-children talk like there was never anything else? (Not long)

Next Subject:

Did I blow money or is the Zenith (LG) SAT520 better than most? If the digital is digital, then what is the difference between my Zenith and someone’s Samsung, or RCA?

Originally posted by kurtW
I am new here, I have a question about if I am able to receive the HDTV OTA, I am living in Superior near the ridge between Denver and Superior, wondering if someone from the same area can help me out.

I was planning to buy the HDTV receiver at CC yesterday, the saleman told me several people from Lousiville and Superior area have returned the receivers last couples of months because they couldn't receive anything. I know the best way to verify that is to try it by myself, but it may not be worth to try if no one has EVER been able to receive anything, which may have to involve outdoor antenna installation, so I am wondering if someone can verify if it is even possible, and what kind of antenna, receiver used, etc.

Thanks in advance

Kurt

It likely depends upon which side of the ridge you are on. If you are on the downside on the north and have a 'large hill' very cloe to your house between you and downtown, you may have trouble. If you are near the top, you likely can get some signal skip or diffraction over the tops of the ridges. On the south side you should be good to go.

I am in Boulder off of 75th and Lookout Road, which is farther north and west of you and get all of the locals just fine with a 6 ft. RS antenna mounted on my deck outside. I do not in any way have line of sight to Denver (although I can easily see Lookout from here), and I still get all but KMGH from downtown Denver. PM me if you have any specific questions. In general, you are right, the only way to know is to try, but if you are on the north side of the ridge and well down on the side you are likely in trouble. Otherwise, you should be in great shape.

whtevr77 --

Weird. KGWN responded to my e-mail right away. Anyway, you were the source of the addresses, so thanks.

First post in this forum! Longmont, CO (17th & Francis). This sure feels like the early adoption phase to me. Just received my first signals. Quite a thrill when you actually see a pic on your screen! Reminds me of the first signals I tuned in on a AM receiver we built in electric shop many years ago. Anyway, I'm using a Samsung T351 recvr, CM4228 ant, and CM7778 preamp. The antenna is sitting on a box in my driveway for now directed due south and I can receive KWGN, KUSA, FOX, and KBDI. If I can get KCNC and KRMA I will be pleased. Esp. KCNC for the Superbowl, of course. I am getting about 7 bars (70% ??) on KUSA, 8 or 9 bars for KWGN and FOX. No sound connected yet. I'm hoping getting it up on the roof and switching to RG6 will get me over the hump. I watched HD Leno last nite, he did an extended outdoor piece overlooking the Golden Gate bridge in SF. It was breathtaking. And as someone else said, you can read "Tonight Show" on his cup. On my analog TV it's not even discernible as writing at all. I'm also impressed (maybe even more so!) by the quality of some of the SD signals relative to some of the compressed crap I've seen from CATV, DBS. This alone may make it worthwhile in the future. Also want to say thanks to you all for helping me get started. Particularly my neighbors in the Longmont area.

Originally posted by ed2day
First post in this forum! Longmont, CO (17th & Francis). This sure feels like the early adoption phase to me. Just received my first signals. Quite a thrill when you actually see a pic on your screen! Reminds me of the first signals I tuned in on a AM receiver we built in electric shop many years ago. Anyway, I'm using a Samsung T351 recvr, CM4228 ant, and CM7778 preamp. The antenna is sitting on a box in my driveway for now directed due south and I can receive KWGN, KUSA, FOX, and KBDI. If I can get KCNC and KRMA I will be pleased. Esp. KCNC for the Superbowl, of course. I am getting about 7 bars (70% ??) on KUSA, 8 or 9 bars for KWGN and FOX. No sound connected yet. I'm hoping getting it up on the roof and switching to RG6 will get me over the hump. I watched HD Leno last nite, he did an extended outdoor piece overlooking the Golden Gate bridge in SF. It was breathtaking. And as someone else said, you can read "Tonight Show" on his cup. On my analog TV it's not even discernible as writing at all. I'm also impressed (maybe even more so!) by the quality of some of the SD signals relative to some of the compressed crap I've seen from CATV, DBS. This alone may make it worthwhile in the future. Also want to say thanks to you all for helping me get started. Particularly my neighbors in the Longmont area.
I'm about 8 miles south of you and also have the CM4228. I looked up your address on antennaweb, and it looks like you will need to be pointing about 35 degrees further to the east in order to pick up KCNC. Find a location where you have a good clear view in that direction and try slow rotating slowly to see if you can pick it up. KCNC is the hardest of the three Republic building stations to tune in, so once you find it the same orientation will almost certainly work for KUSA and KRMA also. KWGN and KDVR are much stronger signals so an orientation toward Republic will probably work for them also, even though they are coming from a slightly different direction (Lookout Mtn.). You also might want to try both with and without the pre-amp. Good luck!

Originally posted by JMartinko
It likely depends upon which side of the ridge you are on. If you are on the downside on the north and have a 'large hill' very cloe to your house between you and downtown, you may have trouble. If you are near the top, you likely can get some signal skip or diffraction over the tops of the ridges. On the south side you should be good to go.

I am in Boulder off of 75th and Lookout Road, which is farther north and west of you and get all of the locals just fine with a 6 ft. RS antenna mounted on my deck outside. I do not in any way have line of sight to Denver (although I can easily see Lookout from here), and I still get all but KMGH from downtown Denver. PM me if you have any specific questions. In general, you are right, the only way to know is to try, but if you are on the north side of the ridge and well down on the side you are likely in trouble. Otherwise, you should be in great shape.

Kurt: jm is right-on the money. Just to add to what he said, when I recently went through the OTA challenge (from Broomfield, so just a bit closer than you), I discovered that even a couple feet in elevation can make all the difference in the world! I am a bit behind a big hill and do not have line of site to downtown. I was getting a lot of drop-outs on my strongest channel from Republic plaza (KUSA), and nothing whatsoever for KCNC. I repositioned my RS VU-90 antenna about 3 feet higher in my attic at I now get KCNC consistently, along with the others from Republic and Lookout (way off-axis from where I am pointing to downtown). So, don't give-up, don't underestimate the benefit of just a couple more feet higher, and be patient. It's worth it.

FYI, if you don't have line-of-site to downtown, and you have a GPS, here are the coords for Republic plaza -- it helped me project the line to aim my antenna:
N 39 DEG 44.610'
W 104 DEG 59.262'

-Ray.

Superior has always been tough to get. I remember that we had someone posting a while back that he could get some of the HD offerings, but it has been a while since he posted.

Jeff

I am not getting any rear channel sound on the AFC pre-game (HD) from KCNC-DT. Anybody else?

Never mind - it looks like they are working now!

For those up north, looks like KGWN out of Cheyenne is passing the HD signal for the AFC Championship game. The pre-game is in HD and looks good!

KCNC looked and sounded great this afternoon.
Jeff

I also am in Superior, but much farther north...by Target in the Sagamore subdivision. I have the CM4228 and 7775 pre-amp. The 4228 is on the roof about two feet elevated above the roof-line. Without the preamp, I got KUSA and KRMA and KDVR (this was before KWGN went live), with only KDVR giving me any good signal. Once I added the preamp, KCNC also came in and the others increased considerably in signal-strength. However, I'm using a MyHD-120 HD card in the PC as my receiver, and I understand it is a very good receiver...

So - Superior is definitely in a "gettable" location, but I think Jim nailed it...if you are right north of the ridge below it, it might be impossible.

Rgds,

JohnW

<flame suit on>
KUSA rocks.
</flame suit off>
My son was at Children's Hospital for the last several days. He's fine now.

While I was there on Friday night, I caught Ed. They ran a PSA educating viewers about the benefits of HDTV. This is good.

So now that we're home, I'm watching the HD capture of Ed recorded on Friday night. (hospital TV had dinky speakers, nurses interrupting etc). During that same spot, there's an HD SoundTrack/KUSA promo. First local HD commercial.

I still disagree with their "leading the way in HD" tagline, but if they should get their local newscasts up in HD next year as has been rumoured, I'll give them that. At that point, they will be leading the Denver stations instead of playing catch up.

I also caught some of KWGN's "highest power HD signal" promos.

I seem to recall a meeting at KCNC a couple years back where we begged the stations to run PSAs such as this to promote local HD among "normal" viewers. I'm glad they're finally doing this. I haven't seen any such ads on KCNC, though, which is odd, considering they've got some of the best HD content out there.

I am not sure if this is the right place, but I have a Hughes E86 HD receiver with a new triple LNB dish for sale. I also have a Mits Dolby Digital receiver. Both of these come without card, but can be obtained by DirectV. Email me if interested.

Originally posted by JMartinko
It likely depends upon which side of the ridge you are on. If you are on the downside on the north and have a 'large hill' very cloe to your house between you and downtown, you may have trouble. If you are near the top, you likely can get some signal skip or diffraction over the tops of the ridges. On the south side you should be good to go.

I am in Boulder off of 75th and Lookout Road, which is farther north and west of you and get all of the locals just fine with a 6 ft. RS antenna mounted on my deck outside. I do not in any way have line of sight to Denver (although I can easily see Lookout from here), and I still get all but KMGH from downtown Denver. PM me if you have any specific questions. In general, you are right, the only way to know is to try, but if you are on the north side of the ridge and well down on the side you are likely in trouble. Otherwise, you should be in great shape.

Thanks JMartinko, Jeff, Ray, and JohnW for all the help, I do live on the north side of the rigde close to Indiana st. and McCaslin Blvd, otherwise, I am in heaven now.

I did tried last weekend but no luck, I bought an open-box receiver T151 from CC, and 6 ft Radioshack antenna VU-90XR, point the antenna roughly to the denver downtown in the attic. I did get more than ten analog local channels fairly good, but not the digital ones, the T151 scans through the channel from 2-0 to 62-0 without any sign of signal. Is there any way to verify the receiver T151 is good? What else should I try?

Thanks
Kurt

Originally posted by kurtW
Thanks JMartinko, Jeff, Ray, and JohnW for all the help, I do live on the north side of the rigde close to Indiana st. and McCaslin Blvd, otherwise, I am in heaven now.

I did tried last weekend but no luck, I bought an open-box receiver T151 from CC, and 6 ft Radioshack antenna VU-90XR, point the antenna roughly to the denver downtown in the attic. I did get more than ten analog local channels fairly good, but not the digital ones, the T151 scans through the channel from 2-0 to 62-0 without any sign of signal. Is there any way to verify the receiver T151 is good? What else should I try?

Thanks
Kurt
I don't think an attic mount is likely to work for you. Try taking the antenna outdoors and pointing south toward Golden, and see if you can pick up 32 or 34 - these stations currently have the strongest signals. Then try pointing toward Denver again to see if you can pick up 16, 18, or 35.

Originally posted by oxothuk
I don't think an attic mount is likely to work for you. Try taking the antenna outdoors and pointing south toward Golden, and see if you can pick up 32 or 34 - these stations currently have the strongest signals. Then try pointing toward Denver again to see if you can pick up 16, 18, or 35. Good advice.
I'd also add to make sure you have no splitters (or anything else) in the line between the antenna and Samsung. Use a good low loss RG-6 coax. Try holding the antenna and walk around a bit to see if you can find a good spot while someone is watching the receiver signal strength meter (hopefully it has a SS meter). Keep in mind what many of us have discovered - inches may make a difference.
Good luck.

KurtW,
Send a PM to AVSForum users Sakka (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/private.php?s=&action=newmessage&userid=45383) and jgrobertson (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/private.php?s=&action=newmessage&userid=46048) . They are in the Superior area and have reported some measure of success.

Originally posted by Geof
Try holding the antenna and walk around a bit to see if you can find a good spot while someone is watching the receiver signal strength meter (hopefully it has a SS meter).
One technique I used when trying to determine where I could get reception was as follows:
a) tune the Samsung to the desired channel
b) turn the volume on the tv WAY UP, so I could hear it out in the yard
c) listen for when reception came in/out as I moved the antenna around.

Unfortunately, the only SS indication on the SIR-T151, is a "bar graph" on the Channels menu, and it doesn't show anything unless the signal is strong enough to tune the channel.

Thanks oxothuk, geof, and Ron!

oxothuk:

Good point, I will try outdoor, look for channel 32, 34 towards Golden direction. I guess there isn't a portable signal meter to measure the UHF signal from antenna.

Geof:
I do use RG-6 coax, which I bought 100-ft from Home depot, so there is no splitter and anything in the middle.


Kurt

Originally posted by dr_mal
... While I was there on Friday night, I caught Ed. They ran a PSA educating viewers about the benefits of HDTV. This is good.
:
I also caught some of KWGN's "highest power HD signal" promos. Your RMPBS membership renewal letter has some HDTV promotion in it also.... Plus our own one-of-kind local productions like "Spirit of Colorado", now produced in lush high definition television (HDTV). Rocky Mountain PBS is one of the first networks in the country to produce an entire ongoing series in HDTV, but it made perfect sense for "Spirit of Colorado", given the beauty and diverse terrain and textures of our region.

Has ANYONE heard when Directv will begin to promote the SuperBowl. They are supposed to show it via the dish right? I am very excited about this. But they seem to want to keep it some sort of secret.

Why?

D* made a press release at CES and there is a thread concerning it called DirecTV to carry CBS HD (and Super Bowl) in O&O Markets! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3233610#post3233610). D* is notoriously tight lipped until after the channel goes live. With all the stipulations revolving CBS-HD via D* (must be in O&O market, perhaps waivers for overlapping DMAs, etc.) and since they don't even have it going yet 13 days before the SB, they may not advertise it at all. There's a long running discussion (read 'argument') of how many D* subs this actually benefits. I, for one, would benefit but I'm nearly positive I'd need a waiver from KKTV in the Spgs - they show up as Grade A for my address (and KCNC is grade B)

Originally posted by dr_mal

KUSA rocks.
I still disagree with their "leading the way in HD" tagline, but if they should get their local newscasts up in HD next year as has been rumoured, I'll give them that. At that point, they will be leading the Denver stations instead of playing catch up.


Reliable sources there indicate that 9News may be in high definition as early as March or April of this year.

Originally posted by RonAuger
D* made a press release at CES I, for one, would benefit but I'm nearly positive I'd need a waiver from KKTV in the Spgs - they show up as Grade A for my address (and KCNC is grade B)

I live in Aurora and HOPE LIKE HELL I can get it over the dish.

I'm holding off on the roof top antenna until I hear for sure that you WILL NOT be able to get HD thru your dish.

You cannot stop progress...I believe it's going to be this way sooner or later ANYWAY. So why not sooner?

Originally posted by TommyK
Reliable sources there indicate that 9News may be in high definition as early as March or April of this year.
That's right. I haven't quite made the mental switch to 2004. I meant to say if they get the local news in HD later on THIS year.

Wasn't it less than a year ago that KUSA's engineer told us local news would never be in HD? :p

Before I start tearing things down and reconfiguring, am I the only one having a signal loss for KCNC 4-1?

It was fine on Thursday, but when I went to watch the game on Sunday, the HD 300 showed a signal strength drop into the "Bad" area. The picture was unwatchable. 6-1 and 9-1 signals have stayed consistent; no change.

I have rebooted and rescanned.

Maybe I need to replace the bow-tie in the attic with a yagi? Any other suggestions?

4-1 is fine for me -- it's been a consistent 70 ever since I had my rooftop antenna installed.

The game Sunday was unwatchable on my RCA (as is often the case) but only a few breakups on the Sony HD200. The signal stayed mostly right under the "N" of Normal (just above the Bad|Normal line). When your signal is borderline, like mine is, there's noticable day-to-day variability. Nothing is changing at the head-end.

I have a giant RS VHF/UHF in the attic. Best way to go and DIY. I could try the roof, but not this time of year.
{Yes! :) }

Sounds like I am going into the attic before the Super Bowl! Thanks guys!

Originally posted by ed2day
First post in this forum! Longmont, CO (17th & Francis). This sure feels like the early adoption phase to me. Just received my first signals. Quite a thrill when you actually see a pic on your screen! Reminds me of the first signals I tuned in on a AM receiver we built in electric shop many years ago. Anyway, I'm using a Samsung T351 recvr, CM4228 ant, and CM7778 preamp. The antenna is sitting on a box in my driveway for now directed due south and I can receive KWGN, KUSA, FOX, and KBDI. If I can get KCNC and KRMA I will be pleased. Esp. KCNC for the Superbowl, of course. I am getting about 7 bars (70% ??) on KUSA, 8 or 9 bars for KWGN and FOX. No sound connected yet. I'm hoping getting it up on the roof and switching to RG6 will get me over the hump. I watched HD Leno last nite, he did an extended outdoor piece overlooking the Golden Gate bridge in SF. It was breathtaking. And as someone else said, you can read "Tonight Show" on his cup. On my analog TV it's not even discernible as writing at all. I'm also impressed (maybe even more so!) by the quality of some of the SD signals relative to some of the compressed crap I've seen from CATV, DBS. This alone may make it worthwhile in the future. Also want to say thanks to you all for helping me get started. Particularly my neighbors in the Longmont area.

Just to update: I'm getting KCNC and KRMA now. Just had to bring antenna upstairs and point it out a south-facing window. I watched the AFC playoff game but was a bit disappointed that it was snowing in my first HDTV football game. The thing that blew me away though, was being able to see single blades of grass on the field. I was also a bit surprised that the FOX 480p game was considerably worse picture quality than the CBS HDTV game on my EDTV plasma. The PBS shows on KRMA are great. I think I'll pony up and subscribe to PBS and make sure they know it's due to their commitment to HDTV.

I live in Superior, what are the odds I can receive OTA HD programming?

I have read this thread and seen that several Superior folks were unsuccessful.

I was thinking of putting the antenna on the roof, would that make a difference? Or would an indoor/outdoor antenna with preamp work?

I want to gauge my odds before purchasing a new TV with HDTV tuner built in. If it is slim that I will be able to get OTA HD, then the tuner is useless to me.

I looked at antennaweb but didnt conclude anything...

Thanks for any help you can provide!

I'll let the folks from up north answer your reception question but I'll chime in on the TV issue. The full power antenna tower for all the major Denver area stations will be on-line in 12 -18 months so the decision to buy a TV with an HD tuner is still a good one. In addition there are many HD offerings on satellite and an expanding HD cable presence. My advice would be to go for it, try the outdoor antenna, evaluate satellite and cable offers and worse case, wait until early next year for free OTA transmissions.

Hi def commercial on KUSA?

I hear this HD-Net chick talking about high def on channel 16. I look and the commercial is in high def. Then she says, "Soundtrak, 9 News, and Mitsubishi, leading the way in HDTV."

ok I give up. you win 9news.

Don

Originally posted by hyperdyne
I live in Superior, what are the odds I can receive OTA HD programming?

I have read this thread and seen that several Superior folks were unsuccessful.

I was thinking of putting the antenna on the roof, would that make a difference? Or would an indoor/outdoor antenna with preamp work?

I want to gauge my odds before purchasing a new TV with HDTV tuner built in. If it is slim that I will be able to get OTA HD, then the tuner is useless to me.

I looked at antennaweb but didnt conclude anything...

Thanks for any help you can provide! Go back to page 341 of this thread and read the post from jmartinko.

Originally posted by donyoop
Hi def commercial on KUSA?

I hear this HD-Net chick talking about high def on channel 16. I look and the commercial is in high def. Then she says, "Soundtrak, 9 News, and Mitsubishi, leading the way in HDTV."

ok I give up. you win 9news.

Don Is there a channel 9 in Denver? I wasn't aware of that or of a, what is it, ..... Channel 7. I just figured there was no ABC or NBC affiliate here......This is news to me. :(

I havent been watching much at all of WB2 since the novelty of them getting on air has worn off (afterall I never watched them to begin with) but I was tuned to it some today and I must say that jingle about being the highest power HD signal or whatever it is is suffciently annoying too.

What is it with all these stations that dragged ass, and are still half assed that makes them want to toot their own horns so much. Like they're gods gift to HD.

Being that everybody is low powered to one degree or another theres not much to hang your hat on no matter what. Like in the case of the WB it doesnt matter that their signal is the strongest.... depending on where you live. I'm sure for some folks it being the strongest is virtuous. In my case for example, it means nothing because I get it more marginally than I do Fox, CBS, PBS or NBC.

But yeah, hey whatever.

I don't consider KWGN to have dragged its heels in getting their HD channel up. Like all the other stations, they had political issues, and then once those were resolved, the FCC took months to give them the green light. Their launch has been the most error-free of all the stations - the "HD switch" has rarely, if ever, not been thrown.

I give KWGN full marks for their HD transition.

Well yeah, when you're 3 or 4 years later on air than the some others you prolly have a better chance to have your ducks in a row.

But I'm not gonna debate the virtues of all the particular channels.. I just get a kick out of how some of them think they're suddenly doing me a favor by being this or that when I was watching Network HDTV before they were even spelling it no matter what their excuses were.

Any word on construction starting on the LCG tower yet?

How about Bear Creek?

I thought groundbreaking for LCG was supposed to be in January.

Originally posted by DP1
.. I just get a kick out of how some of them think they're suddenly doing me a favor by being this or that when I was watching Network HDTV before they were even spelling it no matter what their excuses were.

KWGN was the first OTA HDTV channel for many of us outside of the immediate Denver area. I'm glad to hear that they are promoting HDTV.

Mark

KWGN is doing a lot of right things in my mind. I think their NTSC up-converts are great: Clearly (to me) the best in town. I never really watched TV 2 but since their DT signal came online I've been watching a couple of their reruns (like Everybody Loves Raymond and an occasional Smallville) and asides from some small glitches here and there they seem to be consistently on the job with their DT signal. I have no real clue as to how much priority each station gives their DT channel but from an outsiders perspective looking in I'd say KWGN is "Leading the way in HDTV" at this point in time. Now that could be because they are using a real antenna and transmitter not some toy transmitter connected to a coat-hanger on the roof of their studio under the pretense of pretending to be a broadcaster. That said there is no excuse for our only other semi-high-power faux station in town. They still haven't figured out what is blatantly obvious to anyone with an IQ above an amoeba that lips should be in sync with words. KCNC came roaring in with a storm and did great but they still miss the occasional SD/HD switch so they have some room for improvement. As to the other two, well I just wouldn't know because I am not yet within their DT DMA...and even if I were I doubt I could stomach Ch 9's self serving pathetically sickening attitude.

KCNC-DTs switch missing has been more than occasional as of late. Monday they showed all of "Yes Dear" in SD. Again last night, the first segment (monologue) of Leno wasn't HD. And I could see the side bars changing from grey to black, then 480i to 480p. They were just throwing the WRONG switches. I guess they have a new batch of interns. At least we all got to see "W" toot his horn in HDTV.

As for some of these stations claiming to be "leading the charge ..." toward HDTV, I for one am glad it is at least getting some exposure. We've been critical of the stations not promoting HDTV -- we can't complain when they do. Even if it is in a self-promoting, aggrandizing way. What else would you expect?! ;)

Originally posted by mbuchana
KWGN was the first OTA HDTV channel for many of us outside of the immediate Denver area. I'm glad to hear that they are promoting HDTV.


Sure, thats cool. I'm just saying promtoing HDTV is general is one thing, tooting your own horn is another.

But again, my point wasnt to single out any one station anyway and say something bad about them. It was just something I happened to see the other day that struck me.

All of them it seems have had plusses and minuses in working under more or less the same circumstances. Whether it was commitment to getting *something* on air, or lack thereof, whether it's been smooth sailing technologically (flipping switches/coverage area) from an end users perspective..or not, and so on.

It's like before they had a signal up you wouldnt hear a peep from them on the HDTV front. Now all of a sudden once a station does it's like "Oh my god, oh my god..check this out if you dont have H/DTV you dont know what you're missing!!"

I'm thinking, um, yeah.. I pretty much do know what I was missing because I was missing it for 2 or 3 or 4 years from some of you guys.

Oh well. It doesnt matter. The 4 or 5 homes out of a 1000 that could have even tuned to these signals before now are totally insignificant anyway. Once these stations get on the cable (if they havent already) is basically when the clock truly starts ticking on the HD stuff anyhow.

I could be dead wrong but I bet there could already be more cable HD subs after 4 months of them offering HD in Denver metro, than there is people that were watching HDTV beforehand. If not, it wont be long.

Originally posted by DP1
I could be dead wrong but I bet there could already be more cable HD subs after 4 months of them offering HD in Denver metro, than there is people that were watching HDTV beforehand. If not, it wont be long.
I bet you're right -- the Denver Comcast HD thread has probably about as many people posting there as we do here.

I have a dream, though (apologies to MLKjr), that one day, everyone in Denver, will be able to receive FREE HD, over the air, with only rabbit ears.

Originally posted by DP1
Being that everybody is low powered to one degree or another theres not much to hang your hat on no matter what. Like in the case of the WB it doesnt matter that their signal is the strongest.... depending on where you live. I'm sure for some folks it being the strongest is virtuous.

In my case for example, it means nothing because I get it more marginally than I do Fox, CBS, PBS or NBC.

But yeah, hey whatever.

I'm in the heart of Denver and I don't even get it marginally, thanks to the downtown Denver skyline and WB2 at only half power. I know that half power is a lot, but it's just not quite enough for those of us who live immediately East of downtown.

Yes, congrats and all to KWGN for their HD efforts. But it was no help here. And for me, the WB actually does have a few shows I'd like to enjoy in HD. Guess I'll just have to wait 'til they up their power.

Originally posted by TommyK


I'm in the heart of Denver and I don't even get it marginally, thanks to the downtown Denver skyline and WB2 at only half power. I know that half power is a lot, but it's just not quite enough for those of us who live immediately East of downtown.

Yes, congrats and all to KWGN for their HD efforts. But it was no help here. And for me, the WB actually does have a few shows I'd like to enjoy in HD. Guess I'll just have to wait 'til they up their power.

I would sorta agree with TommyK. For having the "strongest HD signal in town" KWGN is very difficult to get in downtown (I'm in Capitol Hill). That being said, I was actually able to watch Smallville in HD for the first time tonight. There was some signal noise (or whatever you'd call it) from time to time, but for the most part, it was ok.

TommyK, I bought that $22 yagi antenna from Radio Shack and put it on a ~5 ft. pole on my balcony. I had to move it around alot to find a spot where KWGN would come in though. It came in for a bit on Sat afternoon, but not since again until tonight. I had just about given up on getting a signal before Smallville came on, but lucked out. I think I'll try a small signal amplifier to see if that helps (or hurts). Anyone have a model they would recommend?

I'm sorry if this has been answered, I couldn't find it in the previous posts. Are we getting CBS HD via DirecTV? Does it depend on where you live in the Metro. We all probably show up as having a B signal strengh from Co Springs and Casper. I currently get KCNC, but an alternative time zone would be nice.


Also:

I bought a D-VHS machine recently. The data rates for our local affiliates:

KMGH(7.1) 12.75 MBPS- How pathetic (Enemy of the State)
KCNC(4.1) 19 MBPS (Patriots Vs. Tenn Game)
KRMA(6.1) 17 MBPS (smart travelers)

Haven't checked WB or NBC yet.

Greg,

The situation is confusing and we may have to wait until Jan 30 to find out. I would expect everyone would be OK but might require a waiver from Cheyenne or Co Spgs. I went ahead and got a waiver from KKTV just in case I needed it. KKTV was very accomodating and faxed it directly to D*. KKTV is actually grade A for me and KCNC is Grade B, so I think my situation is extra iffy.

For those of you in the south ...

Tom Grassel
KKTV Computer Support
tgrassel@kktv11news.com

{Ya! Two pages in a row!} :D

Ron is on a roll hittin his stride....

Has anyone noticed that KUSA-DT is now multi-casting? I noticed this morning that there's a sub-channel 1 and a sub-channel 2. The second channel has a test pattern with KUSA on it and a little blip moving back and forth a-la Knight Rider or Cylons.

Must be for their HD Doppler Radar :rolleyes:

You know, it's really going to suck if they go ahead and give us local HD news, but then only allocate 12mbps or some stupid thing (KMGH -- hint hint) to their HD channel because they're multicasting. :mad:

I haven't noticed the multi-casting, but I have noticed the "leader in HD" doesn't bother to 'throw the switch' for HD during the Leno monologue these days. I guess they are so busy making their self promoting commercials they don't bother to watch their own broadcast. Why am I not the least bit surprised?

After a month, my RCA F38310 TV is finally back having been fixed. Some picture tube driver circuit board went bad, but the whole thing was covered under my 5 year extended warranty.

One of the first things I noticed flipping through the channels this morning was the KUSA 16-2 test pattern. I also hope they keep the bit rate high on the main channel. Would it take much band width to show a radar screen on their sub channel? I also noticed that KWGN is showing the their normal broadcast on both 34-2 and 34-3. Does anybody know what they plan to do with their sub channel, other than just be a duplicate?

On another note, once you have gotten used to only watching HD, it really sucks to go back to SD on an old 4:3 TV set for over a month. We are now looking forward to the superbowl!

Hi Guys!

I'm sittin' here in Munich, havin' a big beer (Is there any other kind in Germany!) at an internet cafe/bar. Just wanted to say hi!

Can't get KMGH here either. ;)

Originally posted by santellavision
Hi Guys!

I'm sittin' here in Munich, havin' a big beer (Is there any other kind in Germany!) at an internet cafe/bar. Just wanted to say hi!

Can't get KMGH here either. ;) Man you get around...almost as much as Jetlag....maybe more :)
Gotta stay away from the German babes now that you're married though.

Originally posted by santellavision
Can't get KMGH here either. ;)
What's a KMGH? :confused:

Dennis,

34-3 contains our SAP programming when available. Currently it is just a few shows that usually begin before primetime programming such as Everybody Loves Raymond and Friends and also some cartoon programming on Saturday. You may note that the lip-sync is off on 34-3.....
Ha! Ha!!!

Dave M.
KWGN/WB2
2-1,2-2

Dave M,

When will you guys be at FULL power? It's tough up here in Fort Collins when it comes to local HD programming (like almost none), and we could use a break! :)

I hope you decide to broadcast at the full 19.3 Megabits/sec datarate, and continue to do so to keep the HD programming looking the best. MPEG-2 just scrapes by at that bitrate, and any lower resolution and/or bitrate and you start to see artifacts on a large screen (as is even at the top allowable consumer broadcast bitrate MPEG-2 has its faults-- too bad Microsoft's Corona WM9 codec or something better wasn't around when the ATSC specs were being drawn up o those many years ago!!).

Have you broadcasters ever thought of transmitting 24 fps film-based, pre-recorded material (like Smallville, JAG, CSI, Frasier, etc.) in 1920x1080p/24? It's part of the ATSC specs. and it actually encodes better than 1920x1080i at 30 fps... and when the frame rate is adjusted back to 30 fps in the viewer's HD decoder, it would still look far better than 1080i (or 720p) since it has none of the interlaced artifacts like 720p and the benefit of over 2 million pixels. True 1080p projectors are coming to market soon anyway. :)

Just my $.02

Cheers!

Dan

So now we have something?

DirecTV has allocated channels 80-81 for the Superbowl.

Is that confirmation?

Question for the group...

I have a Zenith 520 HDTV off-air/sat receiver. I took a power surge two days ago, and this caused the 520 to lock up, unable to power. Despite unplugging/replugging would not come alive. So I remove all the cables to return to CCity for service, and decide, lets try one last time. Of course it comes alive (good for superbowl reasons). So has anyone else had this unable to power up issue? Or should I send in for service after superbowl?

2nd question, the 520 continually adds channels to my channel list. That is, I only want to display the HDTV channels as I have 2nd TIVO unit for DirectTV, but it will add 1 or 2 or 3 channels to my "ok" or watch list. This is very annoying as I am always having to remove the added channels. Any comments?

Thanks.

You might want to ask over in the HDTV Hardware forum. I bet more people there have Z520s than here.

As to channels being added -- my DirecTiVo does this, too. I suspect D* forces these channels onto us to make sure we see the latest news/offers as we're channel surfing. Oh wait, with PVRs, channel surfing is obsolete. It's annoying, but since I don't channel surf anymore, it hasn't affected me very much.

Originally posted by dr_mal
You might want to ask over in the HDTV Hardware forum. I bet more people there have Z520s than here.

As to channels being added -- my DirecTiVo does this, too. I suspect D* forces these channels onto us to make sure we see the latest news/offers as we're channel surfing. Oh wait, with PVRs, channel surfing is obsolete. It's annoying, but since I don't channel surf anymore, it hasn't affected me very much. What? You don't surf? Is surfing endangered?

Should the caption on this photo be rephrased to read "Mans Single most important discovery"??? :D :D

Originally posted by Geof
What? You don't surf? Is surfing endangered?
I surf the web now, not the TV. When I want to watch TV, I sit down and watch a complete show, minus commercials, in one sitting. So at least at my place, surfing isn't only endangered, it's extinct. :)
Originally posted by Geof
Should the caption on this photo be rephrased to read "Mans Single most important discovery"??? :D :D
Absolutely not! You need a remote to be able to skip the commercials!

Originally posted by skyview
Question for the group...

I have a Zenith 520 HDTV off-air/sat receiver. I took a power surge two days ago, and this caused the 520 to lock up, unable to power. Despite unplugging/replugging would not come alive......So has anyone else had this unable to power up issue? Or should I send in for service after superbowl?

2nd question, the 520 continually adds channels to my channel list. That is, I only want to display the HDTV channels as I have 2nd TIVO unit for DirectTV, but it will add 1 or 2 or 3 channels to my "ok" or watch list. ........ Any comments?

Thanks.

FWIW I have a 520 and have never seen the symptoms you described. I can't comment on the 2'nd question as I am generally a 'surfer' either. I usually just tune to the show I want and that's about it. Sorry I can't help much. The 520 is a secondary receiver in my setup, so I am most often using other units.

Originally posted by skyview


I have a Zenith 520 HDTV off-air/sat receiver. ..........
Thanks.


I have the SAT520 too, I've never had the power loss issue. I would send it in for servicing if it's under warranty. The SAT520 will add removed stations back into the guide if you lose power, or experience a reboot. This issue has something to do with the units limited amount of permanent vs. volatile memory. I had this problem at first. I setup a custom channel guide with the channel's I wanted in the guide. If I lose power, I just return to my custom channel settings.
Hope this helps.



Data Rate updates,
I captured some HD from KUSA, looks like they have reduced their HD stream to 14.75 MBPS. I noticed that their station does look alot softer. I called their engineering department, and they confirmed that they've reduced the rate, and are thinking about multi casting.

KUSA 14.75 MBPS
KMGH 12.75 MBPS
KRMA 17 MBPS
KCNC 19 MBPS (Please don't multi cast)

How low can it go before it's not considered HD anymore?

I have the SAT520 as well. It seems to reboot itself every once in a while, and I have to re-delete channels from my custom guide. Irritating. I've never had the power up issue, though.

Originally posted by Greg T
KUSA ... have reduced their HD stream to 14.75 MBPS.
That's our HD leader! Way to go KUSA! :rolleyes:

Oh, and seriously, thanks KCNC for keeping 35-1 at the 19 Mbps required for HDTV.

KUSA 14.75 MBPS


That's our HD leader! Way to go KUSA!

9News, leading the way in HDTV and sample PONG sub-channels.

don

Being the leader in HD and all, maybe they're going to use the subchannel for the LCG tower building cam! That way, you can all watch the progress (nah... probably something prevents showing pictures of squirrels mating).

We need to pressure these folks to keep HD at HD levels. We need 19 Mbps across the board!! Do they think MPEG-2 is like WM9 or H.264 for goodness sake? They're out of their minds if they think 12-14 Mbps is good enough.

Who's with me??!!

Dan

Data Rate updates,
I captured some HD from KUSA, looks like they have reduced their HD stream to 14.75 MBPS. I noticed that their station does look alot softer. I called their engineering department, and they confirmed that they've reduced the rate, and are thinking about multi casting.

KUSA 14.75 MBPS
KMGH 12.75 MBPS
KRMA 17 MBPS
KCNC 19 MBPS (Please don't multi cast)

How low can it go before it's not considered HD anymore?

I know this is the OTA group, but does anybody here know how this affects us Comcasters? Do we get the same data rate as OTA, or can they pump the full bandwidth signal over the fiber? I'm guessing that we get the same data rate as OTA.

Tim

I've been having difficulty locking onto a signal from KMGH on my Dish 6000. When I tune to 17-1, the signal meter indicates 70 but there is no picture. The channel then maps to 7-1 analog channel. Is anybody who can normally receive KMGH having this problem?
Thanks,
Jason

Maybe you need to delete analog 7 from the list right before you add 17.. unless you tried that already. But remember the issue we had when KUSA came on board? If analog 9 was in the list then we sometimes had problems adding the digital channel.

Regarding the bit rate drop on 9.1 (16), I haven't noticed any change in the signal quality or PQ watching Leno. It is still the best pre-recorded, OTA, HDTV broadcast I receive. BTW, my receiver is a DISH811, which is connected to a Sammy HLN507W via DVI. For live broadcasts OTA, can't beat 4.1 (35), which is great considering SB is coming.

The trouble will come with fast moving sports, movies, or TV shows. On larger screens you'll start to see compression artifacts galore. Broadcasts like Jay Leno are fairly static with very little in camera movement, and the background is fairly stable. That's much easier to encode.

What the f--k are they thinking??? They're dumbing down HD right out of the gates!

Unless the entire broadcast community changes to codecs much more sophisticated and efficient than MPEG-2 and Dolby Digital and the manufacturers are willing to upgrade their equipment to handle them, then I say HD will soon be no better than really clear SD in the not so distant future.

Imagine, with a much better video codec and still keeping the max. of 19.3 Megabits/sec we could probably see 1920x1080p/60 become a reality with 1080i and 720p relegated to the scrap heap. If they moved to 25 Megabits/sec, we'd have enough cushion to virtually eliminate all glaring artifacts, plus have enough room for at least 1.5 Megabit/sec DTS audio (DTS does have a real time 24 bit rez. broadcast encoder/decoder now).

I, for one, don't want multicasting. I want the very best HD signals possible!

Dan

I'm on Comcast, but I noticed that the picture was lacking during the broadcast of the Golden Globes last night. I thought it was just that it wasn't an HD broadcast, but compared to KCNC PQ for non-HD content it was still pretty bad.

It is a competititive world, so I would imagine that ABC and NBC won't be far behind in offering the national HD feeds to D* customers. I have written to Channel 7, stating that I cannot possibly get their HD signal, and asking for a temporary waiver to receive the national feed (when it becomes available) only until the supertower is operational.

I am grandfathered in for the east coast nets via C-band, so I am not asking for a true "distant signal" exemption.

So far I have not heard back from Channel 7. But, since I told them I won't watch ABC in SD, they are losing nothing by granting a temporary waiver, especially for a service that doesn't yet exist.

I would rather they'd make the OTA signal accessible, but we all know the answer to that one!

Maybe if several of us asked for the same concession, maybe they will get the message. And just maybe we can get ABC in HD just as we will soon be getting CBS from D*.

Originally posted by Your User Name:
I'm on Comcast, but I noticed that the picture was lacking during the broadcast of the Golden Globes last night. I thought it was just that it wasn't an HD broadcast, but compared to KCNC PQ for non-HD content it was still pretty bad.

I've always thought that to be the case. The KUSA 4x3 upconverted picture just isnt as good as KCNC's for whatever reason.

Just spoke with Greg Armstrong, GM of UPN20.

It looks like we won't have UPN-HD until the Lookout tower gets built.

He mentioned that when UPN corporate announced that they were going to have some HD content (2 days before it actually started!), he immediately starting looking into some temporary solutions, the most feasible of which would've been having a UPN-HD signal carried on Comcast. At the time, Comcast was more concerned with getting national deals with CBS* (and the other "big" networks), so they probably won't be too interested in UPN until they have the other networks on board. By then, the tower will likely be built or close to it. He did say that right now, he's pretty much focused on getting everything in place for the tower so that they'll be ready.

One exciting tidbit I got from the conversation is that once they've got their HD channel up and running, they're looking into broadcasting some Rockies games in HD. I personally don't care for MLB (especially on TV), but UPN also has rights to some Avs games -- it would be nice to get the Avs in HD again, now that HDNet is blacking out their games.

*Hmm...now that I think about it, when Comcast and Viacom were working out their big deal for HD on Comcast, shouldn't UPN have been included in that? Oh well.

Originally posted by dr_mal
It looks like we won't have UPN-HD until the Lookout tower gets built. So is there any news on the Lookout tower? Or is the Golden/sCARE lawsuit holding things up?

As is the case with any pending litigation, it's hard to get updates, especially on a public forum such as this.

I believe the last anyone heard, things were still progressing in a timely manner.

Not really an OTA topic, but speaking of Avs and Rox in HD, has anyone heard anything about the availability of the new Fox Sports Net HD on satellite (preferably DishNetwork)? I was told by a neighbor who works with some of the HDNet truck techs that FSN was doing an Avs game in HD a couple weeks ago, but I never could find out anything about how to get the feed. Dish CSR's don't know anything about any negotiation status, etc. Shure would be nice as another source for some HD sports.

-Ray.


FWIW: Just looked at the FSN HD schedule, and there's even a game this week that sure would be nice to watch -- 1/29 Avs at Kings from FSN West. I can't imageine that if we had a way to get this feed that it would have to be blacked-out since FSN Rocky Mountain is carrying it here anyway.

Originally posted by RLE
I was told by a neighbor who works with some of the HDNet truck techs that FSN was doing an Avs game in HD a couple weeks ago
If that's true, it was more than likely for the away team's FSN station. I haven't heard of any plans by FSN Rocky Mtn to do any games in HD, and nobody at the moment is carrying a FSN Rocky Mtn HD station, so it would seem utterly pointless for them to produce a game in HD.

On the other hand, on the 15th, ESPN-HD broadcast an Avs game in HD...

You're right on the HD being shot for non-RM regions (see my edit above). However, it seems like they would have little to lose by making the FSN HD content available to subscribers outside those regions for which the games are produced. i.e., I would think that for those wherever, say L.A., that get FSN HD, they probably get to see all those HD games, even if they were produced for one of the other regions. (I would hope). (I am assuming here that FSN HD is delivered on one channel by those carriers who have it, as opposed to an HD channel for each participating region).

Oh, well, I guess I'm just hopeful that someone would see some value in sharing with us the HD wealth within FSN, and that D* and/or E* would deliver it.

For those who are curious, here's what we're missing:
http://www.foxsports.com/named/HD

Originally posted by MRinDenver
And just maybe we can get ABC in HD just as we will soon be getting CBS from D*. Not likely. The only reason D* and E* supply CBS is because we are O&O here in Denver. Fox is O&O too. NBC and ABC are affiliates.

I have read in the local papers that Kronke sports is considering starting their own regional sports network for the local teams that they own or partially own in Denver. The Nuggets, Avs, Crush, and Mammoth would presumably be regular sights on the Kronke RSN. It would seem to make sense to me for Kronke to then approach the Rockies ownership about broadcast rights.
The precedent has already been set for RSN's in New York, Chicago, Seattle and others to broadcast local teams in HD. We can only hope that Kronke will follow suit if the new regional network comes to pass.

And hopefully, since he's starting from scratch anyway, he'd build it from the ground up for HD.

Oh no! KCNC 35-1 seems to be rather weak tonite, marginal signal strength at about 40-45. All other channels booming in except for that fictitious channel 17 that has been rumored. Hopefully 35 low signal strength is just the cold weather. I don't even want to think about waivers or pixelation/breakups for Sunday after the last two Super Bowl fiascos. I might be back up in the attic optimizing yagi orientation before Sunday.

Don

KCNC is coming in marginally, but without problems up here in Boulder. Not a lot of signal to spare, as is always the case with them, but still adequate to keep the receiver locked and nice and quiet. I do not see the fluctuations and occasional breakups that some people report (knock on wood). Actually, since they have come on the air, the only times I have problems are when the wind blows my antenna the wrong direction. I only have a 'temporary' (I get a kick out of the use of that word here) set-up that I am using until the Lookout tower is finished. Fortunately I have other options available for the SB on Sunday if I have KCNC problems.

<Rant mode on, crawling out from under my rock just like Shelob in LOTR:ROTK>
BTW, I notice the LCG group has sure gotten quiet now that they are done using us. It has been a long time since we have gotten an update, and I notice that we don't hear much from the engineers here anymore either. What really surprises me (NOT! :mad: ) is that the KUSA folks ('Leading the way in HDTV' so they claim) don't seem to know we're here either. I would give them kudos for all the public service HD ads if it weren't for the fact that all of them are basically KUSA adds disguised as HD educational information. There are many times when it is obvious that NO ONE at the station is ever watching their signal. Great leaders! Also, more kudos to the folks at KMGH! At least KMGH makes sure I have consistent reception.....always zero!
<Rant mode off, crawling back under my rock>

To be fair, John, the LCG is also trying to defend a (frivolous) lawsuit, so they probably can't be making too many public statements until that's out of the way. That said, it would be nice if they could give us even a generic statement like "we're still on track for a December '04 live date" or "we've fallen a bit behind, look for a live tower in mid-'05" or "we're really screwed, maybe sometime in 2007"

For those of you looking to upgrade, KUSA is also giving away a free HDTV every month until next November. The funny thing about that is that the page on their website where you enter shows the big ol' 55" widescreen Mitsubishi that they're giving away with Scrubs on it. Of all their HD content, they pick a show that isn't even in HD to advertise their HDTV giveaway. I entered anyway; I won't refuse a free HDTV from them... [edit: here's the link (http://www.9news.com/hdtv/win/enter1-9-04.htm) ]

Thanks for the link, dr_mal.

I wouldn't refuse one, either.

:)

Originally posted by dr_mal
To be fair, John, the LCG is also trying to defend a (frivolous) lawsuit, so they probably can't be making too many public statements until that's out of the way. That said, it would be nice if they could give us even a generic statement like "we're still on track for a December '04 live date" or "we've fallen a bit behind, look for a live tower in mid-'05" or "we're really screwed, maybe sometime in 2007".......

When I turn on the 'rant mode' I refuse to be 'fair' or even 'fair and unbiased'. I will leave that to the folks at FOX news who constantly have to tell me they are 'fair and unbiased' since it apparently is not obvious when you watch. They remind me of KUSA advertising they are 'leading the way'. If you are really leading, it shouldn't be necessary to say it every five minutes, it should be obvious.
On the matter of your comment, I agree, I don't expect any public committements, but it might be nice if we got a note that said, 'we reviewed our detailed plans last week with the county and are on track for July, 200X, and we expect to begin digging on Feb. X of 200X. I am getting nervous that my prediction of July 2005 may have been overly optimistic. I (and others here as well) often accused many of the LCG members of not really caring if they ever really got on the air in HD or not, before and during the hearings. I am afraid I am getting that same sinking feeling all over again now. It is tough since I have spent a ton of money to access those signals from other sources. It also smarts when I email a lot of friends from Philly (lived there for 15 years) who have all the major locals OTA and on cable and also get Comcast sports (including all the Flyers home games) in HD, and here in Denver I am still out tweaking my da*n antenna every windstorm to get PBS, CBS and NBC and have never had a whiff (and won't get one any time soon either) from ABC here. Also, when was the last time the folks over at KRMA gave us an update on their progress on Morrison. There are times (my apologies) when these issues really makes my blood boil.

Latest from KRMA (as of 2 minutes ago): "We hope to be on schedule"

Hope? Apparently everything's on track right now, but funding may be a concern. Hint: everyone renew (or start) your KRMA membership. Let them know the money's for HDTV. (And yes, that includes me. I haven't given them a dime yet -- BAD Dave)

Originally posted by dr_mal
....
....
(And yes, that includes me. I haven't given them a dime yet -- BAD Dave) Give 'em a grand and you can become "Super Dave" :)

Sincerely,
<bad Geof>

Originally posted by JMartinko
It likely depends upon which side of the ridge you are on. If you are on the downside on the north and have a 'large hill' very cloe to your house between you and downtown, you may have trouble. If you are near the top, you likely can get some signal skip or diffraction over the tops of the ridges. On the south side you should be good to go.

I am in Boulder off of 75th and Lookout Road, which is farther north and west of you and get all of the locals just fine with a 6 ft. RS antenna mounted on my deck outside. I do not in any way have line of sight to Denver (although I can easily see Lookout from here), and I still get all but KMGH from downtown Denver. PM me if you have any specific questions. In general, you are right, the only way to know is to try, but if you are on the north side of the ridge and well down on the side you are likely in trouble. Otherwise, you should be in great shape.

OK, After I pointed the antenna(still in attic) to Golden as Oxothuk suggested, I do get FOX (32-1) yesterday at 60% signal level with 25dB signal amplifier from Home Depot (30% without), and WB2(2-1) sometimes at 60%, I was excited but the video quality does not look very good(grainy, noisey), only slightly better than my analog, why? also the WB2 had the same signal level at 60%, why drops out very often? Last, what is video format using among these local stations: 480p, 720p or 1080i?


Thanks again
Kurt

Easiest question first:

ABC and ESPN use 720p. Fox uses 480p right now (but will move to 720p in the fall). Everyone else uses 1080i.

Picture quality: it depends on what you were watching. The locally-inserted commercials on HD programming on WB are absolute garbage. Their upconverts (SD programming being broadcast on their HD channel) are pretty good. The HD content from WB (Smallville, Gilmore Girls, etc) is very good (but could be excellent if they weren't skimming bits off to make them fit their lower bandwidth).

Fox, on the other hand, only broadcasting 480p, won't show as dramatic a difference from SD. If you're watching 480p content (like 24) though, it should look very good. Noticeably better than their analog signal, but not HD.

I just posted on the HDTV Programming Forum and thought I'd get a local opinion. I have had my OTA tuner for a couple weeks now (T351) and have noticed that the HD PQ varies considerably. In many cases I think good SD looks better than poor HD. I had heard that CSI: Miami is an outstanding HD show. I watched last night and I just don't see it. It looked to me like the dynamic range was compressed. The dark scenes were particularly bad, no detail, very shadowy. When I cranked up the brightness it just got noisy. The contrast seemed lacking, when I turn it up again it just got noisier. The colors didnt look right to me at all and couldn't be adjusted. I don't want to over-exaggerate, it was certainly better than analog cable, but nowhere near the quality of a good DVD. I don't really think it is my setup because PBS (KRMA) documentaries look outstanding. Leno looks pretty good though it's hard to tell with the lighting and strange backdrop colors. Football looks outstanding, as did the state of the union. Just seems to me like network programming has trouble getting it right. Could it be that it's the local signal that's at fault?

I have learned the hard way through the years, if your signal strength drops significantly and if everyone here is NOT reporting the same thing, check your antenna to make sure it hasn't blown off line, especially with the Super Bowl and guests arriving, etc. You can't rely on the fact that other stations are still coming in fine, with the low power of our locals currently, even an inch or two offline can get signal to fluctuate wildly and cause dropouts.

For CSI, Miami, a lot of what you see is stylized choices made by the producers, directors. I certainly don't see CSI Miami as poor HD at all. Your mileage obviously varies.

Jeff

Originally posted by ed2day
I just posted on the HDTV Programming Forum and thought I'd get a local opinion. I have had my OTA tuner for a couple weeks now (T351) and have noticed that the HD PQ varies considerably. In many cases I think good SD looks better than poor HD. I had heard that CSI: Miami is an outstanding HD show. I watched last night and I just don't see it. It looked to me like the dynamic range was compressed. The dark scenes were particularly bad, no detail, very shadowy. When I cranked up the brightness it just got noisy. The contrast seemed lacking, when I turn it up again it just got noisier. The colors didnt look right to me at all and couldn't be adjusted. I don't want to over-exaggerate, it was certainly better than analog cable, but nowhere near the quality of a good DVD. I don't really think it is my setup because PBS (KRMA) documentaries look outstanding. Leno looks pretty good though it's hard to tell with the lighting and strange backdrop colors. Football looks outstanding, as did the state of the union. Just seems to me like network programming has trouble getting it right. Could it be that it's the local signal that's at fault?
I thought last night's CSI: Miami was a little soft as well. As to the colours not looking right -- they usually paint that show with an orange-juice coloured brush, so it will look a little funny at first. Usually CSI and CSI: Miami are spectacular.

With apologies to all of you who don't care about the following:

Last night, KMGH was not sending an HD signal. When that happens, you get to watch their terrible stretched SD versionon 17-2 or a normal picture on 17-3. My family actually likes a couple of shows on ABC on Tuesday night, so I sent a note to KMGH complaining that they didn't 'flip the switch.' In the past, I would never get a reply. But, this morning, Rick Craddock (their engineering manager) replied with an email saying that ABC did not provide the mountain time zone with an HD feed due to some maintenance going on. At least I got an answer!

Let's hope that when the tower is built (2006??), they will actually be able to join the ranks of the other Denver stations with a reliable strong signal.

Originally posted by ed2day
I just posted on the HDTV Programming Forum and thought I'd get a local opinion. I have had my OTA tuner for a couple weeks now (T351) and have noticed that the HD PQ varies considerably. In many cases I think good SD looks better than poor HD. I had heard that CSI: Miami is an outstanding HD show. I watched last night and I just don't see it. It looked to me like the dynamic range was compressed. The dark scenes were particularly bad, no detail, very shadowy. When I cranked up the brightness it just got noisy. The contrast seemed lacking, when I turn it up again it just got noisier. The colors didnt look right to me at all and couldn't be adjusted. I don't want to over-exaggerate, it was certainly better than analog cable, but nowhere near the quality of a good DVD. I don't really think it is my setup because PBS (KRMA) documentaries look outstanding. Leno looks pretty good though it's hard to tell with the lighting and strange backdrop colors. Football looks outstanding, as did the state of the union. Just seems to me like network programming has trouble getting it right. Could it be that it's the local signal that's at fault?

One thing to know is that most prime time shows are recorded on film, and then transferred to HD. In addition, they usually apply some sort of filters, enhancements, etc.

All of the shows that you said look good (Leno, football, State of the Union, and most PBS) are recorded directly to HD film, which has a very different look.

And of course, like you mentioned, the local signal fluctuates in quality, depending on what they are messing with that week.

HTH,

Eric

Yeah, I'm coming to realize that it's the video-look I like. Except that I certainly like the look of a well-made DVD movie, which is film. To my eye, the network shows don't hold up to the DVD. Not just resolution, but the overall quality. And maybe some of the difference is artistic rather than technical. How would you guys compare network HD programming to your favorite DVD's for overall PQ?

CBS's primetime dramas beat any DVD I've got. The sitcoms, for some reason, just don't seem to be as eye-popping to me. NBC's HD (with the exception of Leno) is lackluster, but I'll still take it over SD any day. WB's shows look very good to me. Better than NBC's.

I'll let you know about ABC in about a year.

Originally posted by squidboy
are recorded directly to HD film, which has a very different look. HD film?:confused: I think you mean HD video.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
With apologies to all of you who don't care about the following:

Last night, KMGH was not sending an HD signal. When that happens, you get to watch their terrible stretched SD versionon 17-2 or a normal picture on 17-3. My family actually likes a couple of shows on ABC on Tuesday night, so I sent a note to KMGH complaining that they didn't 'flip the switch.' In the past, I would never get a reply. But, this morning, Rick Craddock (their engineering manager) replied with an email saying that ABC did not provide the mountain time zone with an HD feed due to some maintenance going on. At least I got an answer!

Let's hope that when the tower is built (2006??), they will actually be able to join the ranks of the other Denver stations with a reliable strong signal.

Yes, I also was disappointed KMGH was not in HD last night. The shocking part is that they're actually replying to complaints and have a reasonable explanation for the problem.

Yes, I know I'm one of only a minuscule number of people who can actually get it, a fact I do not take for granted. While almost nobody can get the channel at all, it's my strongest and steadiest one at 70 to 80%. But hey, I can't get KWGN-DT and I live right in the middle of the broadcast area.

What's worth noting here about KMGH-DT are two things:

1) Believe it or not. they actually do a fairly good job of getting the ABC HD content on the air. Not a great job, but pretty good.

2) Historically, the station has dealt with viewer complaints by simply ignoring them. But, someone there decided, at least for today, to care about their viewers, specifically HD viewers, and make the small effort to reply to complaints. Turning over a new leaf? Who knows... but it's worth noting.

...if only we could just get them to pump out a bit more juice...

TommyK:

In some back and forth email this morning with Rick Craddock, I commented that HD is addictive and that I hoped the tower would be up quickly so ABC could join the other stations with a reliable higher power signal.

He responded back to me stating, "You are definitely right, HD is
addictive. Current schedules put us at testing by the end of this year."

Let's hope that his estimate of testing is correct. But he may be overly optimistic about the lawsuit being settled quickly.

Dennis,

It is refreshing to hear comments such as his, overly optimistic as they may be. I considered concluding post 6918 with "one can always hope" or "hope springs eternal."

Well, here's to hoping.

Originally posted by TommyK
they actually do a fairly good job of getting the ABC HD content on the air. Not a great job, but pretty good.The phrase that comes to my mind is:
"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it ..." ;)

Rick has always been pretty good about responding to emails and the like. He personally called me back when I inquired about their feed several years ago and he took the time to ask where my house was and provided some feedback about whether he thought I would be able to receive ( I was and am able ).

That said, KMGH should be working on getting their signal on Comcast during this period of no tower or full power from them knowing that their signal reach is not adequate to reach even a good portion of our area.

FYI, I do not use Comcast for cable services, so it does not affect me at all. I can receive them reliably ( when my antenna hasn't blown out of alignment ) along with all our other OTA signals. But, their greatest chance of reaching viewers would be via the cable.

Jeff

Speaking of Comcast, my 6200 received the newest firmware last night which enabled the Firewire port. I've been making some test HD recordings to D-VHS and it seems to be working well.

And yeah, it's sad 17 isnt on that system yet.

Originally posted by RonAuger
HD film?:confused: I think you mean HD video.

Blah. I'm sick today. Of course I meant video, not film. :o

Originally posted by RonAuger
The phrase that comes to my mind is:
"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it ..." ;)

Indeed...
Except, there are a few of us in the forest. We do hear the tree falling. It's actually quite loud. :)

I know that this has already been posted but I thought that I would add my $.02. Last night, just before Law and Order SVU, I saw an advertisement from KUSA/SoundTrack/Mitsu about HDTV. This commercial was actually in HDTV!! I was really impressed.

This morning I was watching 9 news as they aired another commercial featuring Adele Arakawa and Bob Kendrick. This commercial stated on the record that 9 news will be broadcasting their news casts in HDTV (they said that they would be the 4th in the country) and that they are the only station in the US that will have a helicopter that is equipped with an HD cam! No dates were given but I think that this will be a huge boost for HDTV in Denver.

This means that HD pictures will be available on 16-1 from 5 to 7am, 12 to 12:30pm, 4 to 6pm, 6:30 to 7pm from 7 to 10pm you might get HD and then from 10 to when ever Leno ends. When a person goes into a store to look at an HDTV there is a good chance that they can see a high quality, HD cam originated image.

Although KUSA was incredibly late to the HDTV party, I think that it is safe to say that they have jumped into the HD pool with both feet.

Ok Boys...What's the deal with Directv and the SuperBowl?

I see Channels 80-81 set aside for the game, but they also say:

CBS SE---- CBS SW---

Does ANYONE know ANYTHING?

'cause Directv via phone is like getting on a radio talk show !!

Originally posted by MattF
Although KUSA was incredibly late to the HDTV party, I think that it is safe to say that they have jumped into the HD pool with both feet.

Thanks for that info. I didn't see those ads.
Sounds great!

Originally posted by MattF
This means that HD pictures will be available on 16-1 from 5 to 7am, 12 to 12:30pm, 4 to 6pm, 6:30 to 7pm from 7 to 10pm you might get HD and then from 10 to when ever Leno ends. When a person goes into a store to look at an HDTV there is a good chance that they can see a high quality, HD cam originated image.

That's a very alarming (in a good way) perspective to take. It will equate to roughly 35 hours per week of additional HD programming in Denver. Word is the studio cameras are already switched over to the high definition mode even though we can't yet see much difference. In house, though, they apparently look spectacular.

Yes, let's all wish 'em luck. I get regular updates from a good friend over there and, logistically, the scope and magnitude of this undertaking cannot be overstated. It has become a continuous battle of solving a never-ending stream of unexpected or unintended consequences. But they are dead-focused on getting HD news on the air in Denver. And soon.

Dan, glad to hear the firewire seems to be working for you. I am surprised it came on live so quickly here.
Jeff

Originally posted by jeffden
Dan, glad to hear the firewire seems to be working for you. I am surprised it came on live so quickly here.
Jeff

Yeah it's kind of incredible. Ken H our moderator called me this morn as soon as he heard that it was working cause it's still not working quite right in Detroit where he's at.

I just thought I'd give Comcast a whirl because of the fact that their HD channels are in free preview (which could go away starting tomorrow for all anyone knows) and they're already offering Starz! HD and Cinemax HD above and beyond HBO/SHO which is something E* and D* arent in any hurry to do. Plus they have the 2 InHD channels also so I figured I'd give it a look cuz it's not much out of pocket to try. It just wasnt available in my 'hood til the last few weeks though.

But heck I was just expecting the regular HD STB with no Firewire cause thats what they said on the phone. Then when he brings the one with Firewire and then 4 days later the f/w to enable it pops up, it's just gravy.

Needless to say I just slashed everything from E* but for the HD Pack to keep getting Discovery HD and the HDNets (both systems have ESPN HD).

I have no idea what the future will hold (maybe I'll keep it for a long time, maybe I wont) but it's sure been a good initial impression.

Just an FYI,
An engineer (not Rick) at KMGH told me that they are owned by McGraw. McGraw is trying to cut a national deal with Comcast to Carey all 4 of their stations. The deal has not been cut yet. He had no idea when it would be cut. Re: KMGH's responds: Yep Rick returned my call last week, I asked them to increase their 17.1 to 18.1 MB/S and give 1 MB/S to the SD station. The answer was no! Nothing is going to change. Then I thought about it,.. if we barely get their station now, a higher bandwidth might make the signal even harder to lock.
DP1, congrats on the active firewire. I'll be taking my 30K over a buds house to record Lord of the Rings the next time it's on. Comcast is really giving the dishes a run for their money.

Dan,
I am a perfect example of how a customer can be reluctant to leave DIRECTV for cable because of their DIRECTIVO and now with the HDDIRECTIVO coming in just a few weeks, I am even more reluctant. Those units are a definite customer retention tool. But, since I am on COMCAST for broadband already, I may call them for a laugh and see what happens. It would be nice to use the JVC 3000 for more than the 169time stuff.

Jeff

I hear you guys. See my thing has always been about giving myself access to the most HD content. Hence 3 diff providers at one time. That alone was my primary reason for going with Comcast because they had as many as 4 HD channels I wasnt already getting.

The last thing I'm going to do at this stage is drop 6, 8 or 900.00 (PVR or no PVR) in to any one provider that doesnt have all the content there is to get. Some day they'll prolly all have equal HD offerings not unlike the SD side and by that point the equipment will be reasonable (again not unlike the SD side) where I wouldnt mind buying some more stuff.

I just like having options. And since my timeshifting needs are meager, just a few hours a week, I dont mind using tape. Whether it's been W-VHS for the last long while or now D-VHS since I already have the decks anyway.

I dont see how you could go wrong though giving them a try. I paid like 28.00 for install and for now my monthly bill will only be 20.19 a month (13.44 Basic cable/6.75 STB rental) until I have to start actually ponying up for the movie packages and whatnot. Whether thats tomorrow or 2 months from now.

You are too damn persuasive! :)

Jeff

Originally posted by DP1
And since my timeshifting needs are meager, just a few hours a week...

Yep = that little intangible factor is a deal-breaker for me. With a little baby boy, timeshifting is VITAL for me and my wife. Can't even begin to imagine life back in "real-time". And I don't have a D-VHS deck.

So - yesterday when the comcast flyer comes out touting 400.00 rebate if I switch to them, plus I'm already getting my Broadband from them (which would drop 10.00/mo) and my HD package so far has been just OTA into the 'puter (via MyHD), I am sorely tempted...all but for the lack of a decent PVR from Comcast (by "decent" I mean as compared to Tivo).

And, the prospect of HDTivo beginning in April is just too much. Can't wait. I've grown tired of watching HD content with commercials ;-)

Rgds,
JohnW

OK guys, straight from Pete's e-mail, here's the latest:
In CARE's lawsuit seeking to overturn the County's approval, they
requested an injunction. The judge threw it out because you can't file
the suit and injunction with the same filing. CARE has submitted a new
filing requesting an injunction claiming irreparable harm if we are
allowed to build and operate the site prior to the lawsuit being
decided. In other words, they don't want to be exposed to RF while the
case is being decided. We plan to submit our response shortly.

The County has now "certified" the record so the judge now has something
to base the case upon. I expect that the case will proceed more
quickly now. We are hopeful it can be resolved in a few months.

We are confident in the County's decision and our case in the lawsuit.
As such, we continue to press forward on all fronts and will only stop
if and when a judge tells us to.
I was wondering whatever happened to the injunction. Speaks well of Deb's lawyering abilities, no?

Well she thoroughly understands how to obfuscate a situation with exaggeration and mis-truths so perhaps it was thought this method would work in County Court.

Some one asked about this in connection with the superbowl broadcast in HD. I did not see an answer and I ran accross the press release..so here it is:

DIRECTV Delivers CBS HDTV Programming in Time for Super Bowl XXXVIII
Broadcast
Local Channel and HD Package Subscribers have access to CBS HDTV via a
Single Satellite Dish


El Segundo, CA Jan 26, 2004

WHAT: DIRECTV, Inc., provider of the nation's leading digital multichannel
television service, today announced it will begin offering CBS
high-definition television (HDTV) programming to its eligible customers on
Friday, Jan. 30, in 17 markets where CBS owns and operates stations and
nationwide for subscribers to CBS distant network signals.

Eligible customers who have the appropriate HD receiving equipment and
subscribe to DIRECTV programming packages that include local channels, or
the DIRECTV HD package, or receive CBS distant network signals, will have
access to CBS HDTV programming that includes the Feb. 1 CBS presentation of
Super Bowl XXXVIII and primetime hits like "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation"
and "Everybody Loves Raymond." Eligible DIRECTV customers will receive the
live feed from (WCBS in New York) or (KCBS in Los Angeles) as part of their
eligible programming package.

DIRECTV is the only digital satellite service offering CBS HDTV via a single
dish and as an option for customers who may only subscribe to a
high-definition channel package.

DIRECTV is supporting the addition of CBS HDTV to its high-definition
programming lineup in (Market) with local advertising and promotions.

WHEN: Live broadcast begins Jan. 30, 2004

WHERE: DIRECTV Channel 80 (WCBS for customers in Eastern or Central time
zones); or Channel 81 (KCBS for Pacific or Mountain time zones)

This sounds very good... however a quick check of my D feed shows no channel 80 or 81 at this time! Prefer the east feed but guess will live with west!

to show Channels 80-81 around 4:00 AM Friday morning.

If you were watching your TV around 3 PM today you seen that there was a break in the action and a remote channel scan.

So------------Get Ready!

(and by the way... Pats by 4 on a last minute drive)

Can't get KCBS this morning, it's blacked out with call x721 blah blah blah. I guess I'll wait a couple of weeks before deciding whether to go through the waiver process.

Don

D* screwed this one up too. As long as you don't overlap another DMA (Cheyenne or Springs) you should be in like Flynn. Is any one getting it? I spent an hour on the phone and they just won't give it to me. The say I need a waiver from KCNC-DT (I already have one from KKTV) and that they also need to be approved by the FCC -- up to 40 days! :mad:

Originally posted by RonAuger
D* screwed this one up too. As long as you don't overlap another DMA (Cheyenne or Springs) you should be in like Flynn. ......The say I need a waiver from KCNC-DT (I already have one from KKTV) and that they also need to be approved by the FCC -- up to 40 days! :mad:

??????:confused:

Why would someone need a waiver from KCNC, and what were they advertising it for the Super Bowl if they have to wait 40 days for approval by the FCC to let anyone watch???? That one makes no sense at all......which probably explains the situation exactly.
:confused:

I called D* this morning also, and after being on hold for a while, they activated channel 81 for me. They told me they were figuring out who should receive the feed and who shouldn't and apologized for the delay. Unfortunately, about 45 minutes later, channel 81 went blank again. Hopefully, D* will get their act together and sort this all out.

I have been calling as well and have been told this.

#1 Must have local tv package I do
#2 Must have hdtv package I do
#3 KCNC must be CBS owned it is....

So they agree I should get it, but no luck at this point.... 80 and 81 show up with the call for service msg on the screen. No mention of Colorado Springs DMA issues.

Well, I just checked and have the wonderful call 721 message on both 80 and 81. I hate waiting on the phone to talk to D* usually uninformed reps so I am going to wait and see if they work this out on a general basis rather than doing it one at a time.

In reading some of the posts on the programming forum, many people are getting both E and W CBS feeds. What difference would it make as to what feed we got? I would prefer the E feed because network shows would come on one hour before MST whereas the W feed would come on two hours later.

Hopefully, D* will get this working without a phone call. Thank goodness for a good antenna so I can get KCNC anyway.

In case any of you aren't watching the super long thread...

I'm in Longmont and get a Grade B from Cheyenne WY. I got a waiver. (very helpful lady named Lynne at lynneh66@yahoo.com).

Sabrina from the distant network station dept called me to tell me that I needed a waiver from KCNC, I was an idiot etc.

Then she called back and said Oh this isn't distant it's part of locals, I didn't even need a waiver from Cheyenne, I'm an idiot, etc.

This morning I have the CBS-W feed. And many people in the Denver area don't, so I'm going to assume that she processed the waiver even though she thought I was stupid. It didn't take 3 business days and it wasn't approved by the FCC. If any of you need Sabrina's phone number, private message me. She was in the end, helpful, it seems, but she wasn't all that pleasant to talk to. But I've checked three times and I still get the station.

I hope this helps someone.

Yes, if you have an antenna and are able to get the Superbowl from KCNC (or KGWN for that matter) then I'd suggest waiting until next week to worry about this, if at all. But if anyone has no other way to get the game in HD and thinks they ought to get it and I can help in any way, pm me.

Originally posted by JMartinko
??????:confused:

Why would someone need a waiver from KCNC, and what were they advertising it for the Super Bowl if they have to wait 40 days for approval by the FCC to let anyone watch???? That one makes no sense at all......which probably explains the situation exactly.
:confused: Of course it makes no sense .. it's D*! very:mad:

I'm going to call, and call, and call!!! Until I get someone who can give me some satisfaction!!! (I guess I'll end up on a 900 # ;) ). In my particular case, I wonder if it is because KKTV is my Grade A and KCNC is my Grade B (which is bu!!$h!it whoever figured that one out).

Dennis, the ones getting both E and W already have distant networks E and W, supposedly white areas only but it looks like that isn't always the case.

Well no luck at all with at all with DirectTV...

Starting to drop their packages, dropped both movies and locals, will look at alternatives to Direct....

Ron --

Do you get local channel package and is Denver what you get?

Yup!

{Jeff, got your PM, Thanks}

OK, here is the skinny from D* special department for CBS HD. I decided to go ahead and call D*. Was on hold for a while to talk to the CBS HD experts. A lady explained that in checking the FCC Distant Network data base, both KGWN in Cheyenne and KKTV in Colorado Springs overlap for me in Englewood and therefore I need a waiver from both of them before D* can 'legally' turn on the satellite CBS signal. Now they will do that and it takes 45 days assuming that the waivers are given.

I now plan to call both stations and get them to fax me a waiver and then I will fax that to D*. The D* fax number is 208-363-6444. Attention to the SHVA department. Include your account number and address etc. That takes 3 business days. Obviously not in time for the SB. This problem should apply to everyone in Denver unless they had received previous waivers. On the long thread in the programming forum, two people stated they got both channels. One was in Evergreen and the other in Boulder. I can only assume they had waivers or D* just screwed up and turned theirs on.

What a royal pain. I feel for people who can't get KCNC OTA for the SB!!

I will post my results of calling the two TV stations shortly.

From kmlpatel on the long thread:

"If you need to get your waiver processed quickly, (maybe because a CSR said you didn't need one, as they told me last week) fax it into 208-363-6444, ATTN: SHVA. Then call that department at 208-363-6222 and ask that they process it ASAP.

This is what I have done, and the lady I spoke with did tell me that the 2 people who usually do this are out for they day. Luckily she used to work in that group and did it for me. I just have to verify it's on when I get home from work today. She was very pleasant to talk to and understood my dilemma, so if you do have the same problem I did, and need to push this through, call them up.

And remember that if you want to complain to someone about this, it isn't this department that screwed things up. In fact, they are very polite and just want to help."

Your realize what you are saying...

By Cheyenne overlapping you from the North, and you are in Englewood, and COS overlapping from the South, it means ALL D customers in Metro Denver are in either CYS or COS, or both, DMAs. So the package offer is a total crock. That absolutely s*********. I am not a happy camper. None of the stations, COS, CYS, DEN have alternative HDTV signals, heck, I cant even receive COS stations where I am in Castle Rock, yet I have to go for a waiver.

I have dropped both my local and premium service, and will look at alternatives because of their attitude. Problem is, no cable here, and leave me holding the bag.....

Of course, my Zenith 520 wont work for E***.

We should be offered ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS national feeds if our own locals cant provide it. In fairness to PBS, yes I get them fine now, and same with Ch 2. But KCNC is hit and miss, KUSA usually ok, and KMGH no way....

All they want is our cash, to hell with serving the customers.

skyview --

I agree. The actual rules aren't set by D*, but they did a piss poor job of training their employees and providing clear information on what the rules are. The fact that I sent the Echostar website to the person IN CHARGE of their SHVA dept still has me laughing. A little later she told me, "If anyone knows this process, it's me. I'm in charge. You can't be listening to some note on the internet." I couldn't make this stuff up.

And I have to think they could've turned this on more than one business day before the superbowl. Coincidentally the people who work the waiver dept are out today? Sheesh.

OK. Here is the further skinny.

KKTV in Colorado Springs. Call 719-634-2844. They will connect you to the Waiver Voice Mail number. You then leave your address and the request for an HD waiver. Give them a FAX number also if you have one. I called back after doing this and asked to speak to a real person. The receptionist said there was no one to talk to. I explained what was going on and could she get someone to check the voice mail and process the request quickly and fax it to me. She said she would do that but I don't hold any hope for a quick turnaround.

KGWN in Cheyenne. Call 307-634-7755. A very nice receptionist will take the information and will do the waiver. The problem today is that all the personnel are in Casper for a Wyoming Broadcasters Meeting and there is nobody that can do the waiver until Monday. So, SOL!!. They will FAX the waiver to me next week.

She also explained the problem is with the FCC. There is an FCC rule that waivers must be granted for any station within 200 miles (!). Good grief, what a requirement. Someone at CBS and D* should talk to Michael Powell and get that dumb rule amended!

Now why Ken H couldn't have clarified this in the super long thread on the programming forum is beyond me!

I guess what we can never forget is that Murphy works and works very well!!

Now why Ken H couldn't have clarified this in the super long thread on the programming forum is beyond me!

He did.

His insistance is the only reason I scrambled to get the Cheyenne waiver. Now this is the first I've heard of the arbitrary 200 mile rule, but the eligibility website (where you put in your address to see who you're dealing with) was posted in the long thread about a zillion times.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
OK. Here is the further skinny.

KKTV in Colorado Springs. Call 719-634-2844. They will connect you to the Waiver Voice Mail number. You then ... Call KKTV's Tom Grassel (tgrassel@kktv11news.com) directly at (719) 634-2844 ext263.

He faxed D* my waiver last week, but it seemed to have backfired on me. Now D* is saying I need a waiver from KCNC. And the only staff that knows I don't need one is out (or hiding) for the day?!?! You've got to be sh!tting me! :mad:

I was told I need COS waiver, living in CRock. Does anyone know if I need both waivers, COS and CYS???

Direct should have dealt with this before EVER offering to Denver customers....

Thanks to those posting usefull info!!!! Very helpful on a frustrating day.... Perhaps we should initiate a lawsuit against the CARE folks for loss of service and time to deal with this stuff.... that would teachem!

Nobody should have to go thru this Political BullShit.

And that is ALL it is.

Not to say that I'm doing any better. I've woke up excited this morning. Only to find X721 running across the bottom of my screen.

My only hope is that Directv is going across the country section by section. And of course we would be just about last. Maybe on by 4PM ??

Well I have requested waivers from COS by voice mail and CYS through the receptionist, who is EXCEPTIONALLY nice. Do we also need Grand Jct, they are within 200 miles arent they???

You would think each station would issue one waiver to D and E, and avoid all the individual calls!

To add to the confusion here's my update. After having Channel 81 activated after a phone call this morning and then having it deactivated about 45 minutes later, I decided to call the customer retention department to register a complaint and to change my programming package. I was just starting to get my anger level cranked up when the CSR told me that I should be eligible for the feed and to check the channel again. Sure enough, channel 81 is back on. He obviously activated it while I was on the phone with him. This may be a case of me just getting lucky in the CSR roulette game. Hopefully it will stay up longer than 45 minutes this time.

Worth posting again on this page ...
Originally posted by DennisMileHi
OK. Here is the further skinny.

KKTV in Colorado Springs. Call 719-634-2844. They will connect you to the Waiver Voice Mail number. You then ... For COS waivers, call KKTV's Tom Grassel (tgrassel@kktv11news.com) directly at (719) 634-2844 ext263. He'll service your waiver request politely, also.

He faxed D* my waiver last week, but it seemed to have backfired on me. Now D* is saying I need a waiver from KCNC. And the only staff that knows I don't need one is out (or hiding) for the day?!?! You've got to be sh!tting me! :mad:

Yeah they screwed up bigtime..not in the execution really because theres so many variables that there was sure to be issues for many of thier customers. The exact same thing happened when E* starting doing the same concept years ago.

But it's the timing. If they wanted to tie it in with the SB they needed to have these channels lit up a month ago. Or, not tie it in to the SB and just talk about the virtues of CBS HD being on the system in general and just waited til some point after the SB to bother with it.

But of course in any event, from a PR perspective as a whole to everybody that gives a **** about Press Releases aside from the customers that they actually effect, "D* being proud to offer CBS HD and the Super Bowl in HD" looked pretty good on paper.

Oh well.. hopefully theres still time for the folks that really need it activated, to get it activated. Afterall, it's just pushing keys on a keyboard when you get right down to it. Not having to come to your house and re-wire something.

Just to add fuel to the fire, a coworker of mine just called Cheyenne (at the number posted earlier) and they said they'd get the waiver processed, but they need his D* account number. He doesn't have that handy at work, so he's stressing a little about his Super Bowl party (doesn't have an antenna mounted yet).

All he has to do is call D* with his phone number and they can give him the account number.

Thanks Ron, he's doing that right now. This guy lives south of Hampden; it's very silly to be needing waivers from Cheyenne.

Update: the lady at Cheyenne told him that even if she could get the waiver processed today (which she can't) DirecTV is so backlogged, they wouldn't be able to get it processed for a few weeks (they're that far behind with all the calls today).

So he called DirecTV directly and told the clueless rep that he should have the CBS HD feeds turned already and why weren't they. They turned them on. He's running home for lunch just to double check.

I feel like I'm on a mission now. (I do get KCNC OTA.)

I decided to call D* back since it appears that others are getting CBS turned on. After talking again to a CSR, she agreed it should be on. Then sent me to a tech person who tried everything but agreed it should be on. Then she transferred me (again) to the department that works on the CBS deal. On the transfer, got a BUSY signal. AAAAARGH!

Called back and after some further discussion (I was obviously angry), the rep says my account now says CBS HD eligibility pending. He says that means that the CBS HD will be activated AND well before the SB but he didn't know when for sure. Might be tomorrow morning. He even said he guaranteed it! Whatever that means. I asked if I could pass along the message to others in Denver that they would have it turned on also if they met the stated requirements. He said yes. Waivers from COS and Cheyenne are not going to be needed. My parting comment was that if they did not turn in on for the SB, there were going to be many, many really unhappy people. I would suggest you check your account on line for the message stating CBS HD eligibility pending. If not, I would call them and read them their own requirements as to what is needed:

WHAT EQUIPMENT DO I NEED?

To access DIRECTV high-definition programming,
you'll need:

1. HD-Capable TV Set
2. DIRECTV HD Receiver
3. Triple LNB Multi-Satellite Dish

Learn more about equipment requirements.


CAN I RECEIVE CBS HDTV PROGRAMMING?

There are two ways to receive for CBS HDTV programming:

1. CBS HDTV programming is available to DIRECTV customers who have HD equipment and a TOTAL CHOICE® with Local Channels programming package, or the DIRECTV HD Package who reside in one of the following markets: Los Angeles, CA, New York, NY, Chicago, IL, Philadelphia, PA, San Francisco, CA, Boston, MA, Dallas, TX, Detroit, MI, Minneapolis, MN, Miami, FL, Denver, CO, Pittsburgh, PA, Baltimore, MD, Salt Lake City, UT, Austin, TX, or Green Bay, WI.

2. Customers eligible for Distant Network Services who have HD equipment will receive CBS HDTV as part of their DNS subscription.
Find out if you qualify.


You will notice there is NO requirement for waivers if you live in one of the select O&O cities. Point that out to them!!

We will see what happens. Just checked and still not on.

So, it seems that I, too, must have a waiver from Wyoming in order to get the CBS HD feed. Even though there is NWIH I can see a signal from that far away, I am listed in their DMA.

The O&O arguement got me nowhere!

Seems someone didn't do the homework to get this right.

I think I am moving.

I just called for the hell of it and acted dumb (I'm good at that) and said I was wondering why I didnt get it since a CBS HD line was showining on my online account. Course the thing is I dont sub to anything else this time of year cause all I use D* for is NFL-ST.

Well anyway, he did get it to turn on for me after first saying "Well the good news is you dont need a waiver!" But he couldnt get it to stay on unless he activated Total Choice/Locals base package first (I watched the L.A. HD station for about 5 minutes while he figured it all out). Which of course I said "no thanks" to. Then it went back to call ext. 721 again.

Hmmmmm... at least you got SOME action. What D* number did you dial??

I think we have reached a new standard for the definition of FUBAR!

FUBAR = D*

IT came alive.... no addl calls, just came alive! Not sure if it will stay.
COS station has already sent waiver in... they were very responsive though doubt d could have processed that quick, CYS will send one to me next week I beleive....

1.) I got the dreaded "please call customer service ext. 721" message.
2.) 1st call to DirecTV.... no waiver, no joy.
3.) 2nd call to DirecTV.... more frustration..."it's a federal law."
4.) 3rd call to 'DirecTV .... said no waiver necessary. Switched it on.

Now receiving CBSW-HD channel 81 :)

Keep trying, not everyone is a Stalinist. Don't give up.

Just wanted to post that I'm getting CBSW-HD on channel 81. I did not send in any waivers or make any calls...... Just checked around noon and there it was. Not sure why the waiver thing went nuts? It's obvious their database is screwed up.

Somebody in the South East Aurora area PLEASE tell me you are getting Channel 81.

And then tell me WHO to talk to when I call.

Just off the phone with Molly, Heather, Hanna, Mary Louis, & Edward.

None of them got it done. But Molly told me I needed a waver and she would put it in for me and it would take 45 DAYS !!!!!!

Said that Denver's Channel 4 is the one making or NOT making it happen.

I finally got called back by a Jenny who was "pressed" into SHVA service in the Special Projects dept. She said after looking into it, I did qualify and she turned on CBSW (ch 81). She said they were swampped since only this dept could handle these requests and the other staff doing SHVA-related stuff mysteriously disappeared. She used to do SHVA but does corporate projects now (except for today!)

I'm in Aurora at Tower and Quincy, thereabouts.

Keep calm. Tell them you're having trouble finding anyone than can understand. Tell them you got your information off THIS Press Release (http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040108/85448_1.html). Ask them to be patient while you read it to them, carefully. Don't acknowledge waivers. Ask a common sense question like, after reading the press release, how can anyone with the HD subscription in the Denver market NOT be eligible. Don't get mad...express frustration and act reasonable, but not enlightened about waivers.

Waivers came up in my conversation, but the CSR said you don't need them for Denver. Sorry, didn't get his name. But it took 3 tries. You can do it.

Also, don't press extension 721, press 0 and try to get to an operator as quickly as you can, even if it's not the right group. Try asking for a supervisor, if necessary.

But again...refer to the press release..."how can ANYONE be eligible if not everyone?"

I dunno folks. JM is right DirecTV=FUBAR.

After reading this thread I decided to just try Ch 81, not that I need it because I get KCNC-DT OTA fine. I also don't subscribe to the locals package since I have a straight shot at Lookout and get the analogs just fine. To my surprise I am getting D* channel 81 right now as I type this. The ironic part is I don't need it, nor do I need KCNC-DT for the Superbowl since I'll be watching it from a hotel room in Florida.

Good luck to all who would really like to see this game in HD. We need a change of luck around here.

Ok, I'll call AGAIN.

If you are living close to me... I should be able to get it too. (Assuming you ARE getting Channel 81.

So... Hopefully the next time you see my name in RED.

You'll see :cool:

I am getting channel 81 absolutely. You are eligible too.

They wouldn't activate it for me up in Greeley. They told me I would need a waiver from KGWN in Cheyenne.
:(

I have it in Loveland. No signal in the morning, I called around 11 am, after the first rush but before they all got burnt out. The young lady that helped me (I dialed x721) had ch 81 on within ten minutes. I basically stated that I have Denver locals and the HD package, therefore according to thier press release I should have CBS-HD. She agreed and it worked. She did have to check to find out how to do it. Been on all day. I have no waivers of any kind.

Just keep trying folks. This whole thing is just bizarre. Sounds like it depends on which CSR/rep you get on the phone.

Just checked and I now have channel 81 coming in. No 80 or 380 or 381 though. What a hassle. I am not sure whether I would have gotten it had I not complained. Probably would. But D* sure did not have their collective acts together on this. Now I have two TV stations sending me waivers I don't need.

Does anybody think there is a chance to get the E CBS feed in addition to or in lieu of the W feed? I think D* owes us something!

Everybody enjoy the super bowl on KCNC or KCBS.

DirecTV is the worst!

I just got read a bunch of crap about FCC rules. What a joke. I'm in Highlands Ranch, and I have to get a waiver from Wyoming???? Absurd.

I called twice, spoke to 4 different CSR's and a supervisor who wouldn't do squat for me. She kept reading me the "rules" - even though I pointed out that other people are getting the package. What a joke.

Horrendous customer service as usual. I've been a customer for 10 years, subscribe to the Total Choice Premier package with locals and HD - and they basically blow me off. Nice.

Comcast is looking better and better.

So if I'm in Westminster/ Broomfield, is there a zipcode that I can change to to be eligible for D* Ch. 81 without a waiver?
Obviously the Wyoming KGWN folks won't be in until Mon, so I'm screwed otherwise....
I guess my question is "for those of you who got CH. 81, what zipcode can I steal??"
Thanks

P.S. And I don't really care where in the Denver metro area the zip is, I can get my billing online anyway. :)

Another P.S. : On my 4th call (2nd with the "Super Duper Special Projects Office"), Jen told me their database is by street address and zipcode. She also said once I get a waiver faxed, it's "3 business days" on Directv's end. The 45 days she said is all due to the local stations' slowness. Believe what you wish!

I finally got them to turn it on! It took 3 different calls, the first 2 were the same as everybody else just read the rules to me and asked if I wanted them to put in the waivers for me. The second CSR's name was Amy, she put in the waivers for both Fox and CBS but would not turn it on. I decided to try one more time, I got a CSR named Chris and he turned it on no problem. I would suggest that everybody keep trying and make sure they put in your request for the waivers for both CBS and FOX. It is possible that Chris saw my request and turned it on because of that.

Originally posted by tcreynold
Another P.S. : On my 4th call (2nd with the "Super Duper Special Projects Office"), Jen told me their database is by street address and zipcode. She also said once I get a waiver faxed, it's "3 business days" on Directv's end. The 45 days she said is all due to the local stations' slowness. Believe what you wish! She's the one that got me turned on (no pun intended), but I had KKTV's waiver in D* hands last week. I still had a very hard time until I got Jen because they were complaining about KCNC.

Whats this about fox? Is it also being broadcast? Is it worth the fight with d to get?

Thanks to all who helped today!

As for my waivers, beleive the COS station got it in D*s hands today, and both COS and CYS were EXTREMELY friendly, and helpful, very much unlike D*, who seem to be unwilling to help a customer.... I cannot say enough nice things about the over the air stations willingness to help. I so wish I had options short of moving! And living as I do in Castle Rock, obviously a remote and obscure place, I dont even have Comcast cable in my area!

Well, after following this subject all day from work, I was hoping the channel would be on by the time I got home. No such luck. The account is under my wifes name, so I told her about the situation and had her call. She just talked to one of the normal CSR's and told them the situation. He went on saying we need a waiver, blah, blah, blah. My wife stopped him and read exactly what is says on the website and he said to hold on a second he will check into it. Sure enough, he gets back on and says that we do qualify and should be getting it and turns it on for us. This was on the first try and was on the phone for about 3 minutes. My wife was very polite to him and they were very helpful. I could not believe it. Keep trying guys, keep trying....

Originally posted by skyview
Whats this about fox? Is it also being broadcast? Is it worth the fight with d to get? Request your CYS and/or COS if you think you need them. Like CBS FOX East and West DTV will be coming on D* some unknown date in the future. They won't have HD until the Fall (or perhaps a show or two in the Summer)

I had a couple weird calls to DirecTV earlier this morning. I finally got transferred to the "special dept" that handles those requests. I asked for channel 81 to get turned on, thinking that this would be very specific and help the CSR figure out what to do...

CSR: where are you?
Me: Denver (Highlands Ranch, really)
CSR: oh, you need a waiver to get CBS
Me: I thought Denver could get it...
CSR: Yes, but there is another station marketed in your area and we need a waiver from them
Me: I really need a waiver?
CSR: Yes, but we could just do NY or LA HD feeds.
Me: Oh yeah, all I need is HD
CSR: OK, I'll turn that on and send your waiver in.
Me: OK, do I still need the waiver then?
CSR: Unfortunately, yes. I'll send it in and wait for the response.

So then I go to my HD STB and I now get channel 81. I don't understand why she thought she had to go through with the waiver when I asked for 81 but then turned on CBS-HD when I asked if there was an alternative to the waiver process. Really strange. But I get 81 :)

I really, really do not understand how a person can get the programing and be almost in my same area and I'm told by D* that I have to have a 45 day waiver.

I'm on the phone with D* now and not getting anywhere.

It would be nice if we (this forum) could help each other with this one.

Originally posted by Geof
I dunno folks. JM is right DirecTV=FUBAR.
don't need it, nor do I need KCNC-DT for the Superbowl since I'll be watching it from a hotel room in Florida.
Good luck to all who would really like to see this game in HD. We need a change of luck around here.

For what it is worth. I decided to try the D* CBS feed last night. I am getting 81, the west coast feed, but not, as is supposed to be, the east coast feed. I live in Denver proper, close to Hampden and Sheridan. I called no one and got no waivers. For the first time it seems I have been fortunate in dealing with D*.

I also don't really need it because I get 35-1 with an 80 or so signal consistently. It does indeed seem like D* has no clue, and that Mother Murphy is still hard at work.

Phil P.

I'm on my 5th call to DirecTV. I've had two CSR's try to turn on 81 for me, but it wouldn't take. I wonder if DirecTV has blocked anyone but special projects from activating the stations now. They ended up sending me to special projects, and as they stated yesterday, I need waiver's from Colorado Springs and "freakin" Wyoming.
I'm almost in give up mode. I'd really like the West feed. Albeit, I get KCNC just fine now.

i'm in greenwood village- just called and was transferred to special projects- took 2 minutes and I have 81- Keep trying