Welcome aboard, Doug. I've been here for only about 3 weeks myself after taking the plunge. About where do you live, and what kind of antenna are you using to pick up the OTA signals?

12:00 noon, December 26th...no test signal yet from KCNC...

Mark,

I live in Bonnie Brae (near Wash Park) and I am using a 60" Wingard UHF only antenna in my attic with a rotor. I pointed it towards Lincoln and Speer and scanned for available channels and all came in. I am probably slightly overbuilt, but I wanted to make sure I could get all the channels, if possible.

I know CBS is not looking to broadcast the AFC playoffs in HD, (according to other threads), but I am looking forward to seeing CSI in HD.

Regards,

Doug

Doug
Welcome to the forum and especially to the Denver thread. Glad to hear of another person who can receive the signals from town. I take it from your posting you can also receive KMGH as well as the usual KRMA and KDVR? That would mean a rough count of about 6 folks who can receive their signal. We encourage you to post your thoughts here, and feel free to report in if you find anything on channel 35 this week.

I checked several times today for a signal on channel 35. No luck.

The signal for KMGH-DT channel 17 was very weak today. About 50% and my Echostar 6000 would not lock onto it. They may have cut power during the day when there is no HDTV.

jm,

Yes, I am one of the fortunate few who receive KMGH-DT, but I am very close to the transmitter (less than 3 miles) with no buildings or hogbacks in the way. I wonder what the actual number of KMGH-DT viewers are ?

I have begun to look for KCNC-DT on 35 over the last couple of days, but to no avail. Hopefully soon.

Doug

Darn,
Back today and hoping for so much more, but hey, we all are!

You know, we may actually be into double digits in KMGH viewership as we used to have several other posters in other threads that never really got involved in the Denver thread that were able to receive the KMGH Super Bowl a couple of years ago.

Probably our second biggest obstacle ( behind the stations locally) is the uninformed sales drones at most of the stores around town. I practically had to shout down one guy who insisted that there still was NO HD in Denver at all. He argued with me that I must be wrong about watching Alias, etc. on KMGH and proceeded to try and tell me that with real HD there would be no doubt that what I was watching today was not really HD. This from a guy who has never seen anything except a Sencore HD generated loop in his poorly calibrated store RPTV displays.

Oh well, a week away with no progress has apparently left me testy! Here's to some success for us all in the next week.

Jeff

Jeff:
I usually run in the opposite direction when they try and help me. I ONLY reason I am even in the DIGITAL section is to compare prices... on my CT34WX50, and ALL of the stores ..B.B. C.C. etc (I bought mine in the summer) are all higher than what I paid for anyway....just looking...

And no I still can't get channel 17. I'm gonna get a Yagi and stick it up in my Cottonwood tree, that ridge around Potomac/225 is blocking my view! I can see the blue QWESt sign though....sniff..sniff..
Ya, and if that aint a bummer, my DST-3000 is screwed up, thanx to that software "upgrade" DTV did two weeks ago! No APG, and I have to manually put in the channel numbers. Other than that, it works fine, and did before. YEs I called Toshiba, they want it back.

Don't remember if I've posted this story in this thread before...

When I bought my RCA DirecTV HD receiver at SoundTrack in October, I was just about in a shouting match with the sales drone -- he was insisting that DirecTV was blacking out HDNet in Denver to save bandwidth. He wouldn't explain how blacking out a signal that's broadcast everywhere but Denver saved bandwidth, but he blamed it on the locals. Whatever. He was about ready to lose the sale of the receiver, but I called DirecTV just to verify that they weren't blacking 199 out in Denver and bought it anyway. By the time I got off the phone with DirecTV, I had to be back at work -- when I went back after work to pick the unit up, he brought his manager over and the manager swore that even with DirecTV, I couldn't get any HD in Denver. "The DirecTV rep was here this morning and told me so!"

I can still get Fox up here in Brighton with rabbit ears (just to keep this slightly on topic :))

Slightly off topic again, but the new locals are up on DirecTV today. Now I can watch Enterprise on UPN!

Weldon,
Yes, it seems that the additional locals using the new spot beams went rather painlessly. They showed up on my DIRECTIVO in the family room without a hitch and even recorded a show from channel 20 to make sure all was well. I didn't check the DTC-100 in the theater room, but I assume all is well there also, with the notable exception of any test bars or whatever from channel DT-35.

Let's hope KCNC is not pulling our legs about being serious about their plans. ( Pull the other one and it plays Jingle Bells! )

Jeff

FYI, there is an article in the "Denver Business Journal" today about HDTV (or the lack of it) in Denver. Not a lot of new news here, but it is interesting that they are at least covering the topic.

http://denver.bcentral.com/denver/stories/2001/12/24/story4.html

Anyone getting anything from KCNC yet?

Thanks for the link JM... the January date for a new proposal submission by Lake Cedar Group is news to us, isn't it? If it happens then at least we will have something to track.

Also, here's another KRMA heads-up...

The program Great Performances:"'Little Women' from the Houston Gand Opera"
will be fed in HD on Tuesday, January 1, 2002 at 10:30am. (MT)
The frequency is on DT2A (RX-IF=1379).

Please see that it is broadcast on KRMA DT 18.

Helen,
Please add to the record schedule.

-John

I decided to go home for lunch today and rescanned for channelsand still no luck for KCNC. This was as of 12:30 p.m.

Jeff

Jeffden,

good news indeed.
Star Trek and NHL are on my list for UPN.
It is good to see that (at least) direct TV does followup on their press releases. Now, if they would just stop saying that HD Showtime is coming soon!

dan L

Originally posted by JohnJr
Thanks for the link JM... the January date for a new proposal submission by Lake Cedar Group is news to us, isn't it? If it happens then at least we will have something to track.

-John

I have heard the Jan. date from several sources, but I don't know that it is very firm. I guess I thought we had discussed it here at some point, although now that you mention it, we may have had comments like 'next year'. From what I understand the LCG is "supposedly" trying to make this submittal 'air tight' and will not submit it until they are sure that it is. I suspect they will try to make sure it is right the first time rather than drive to a Jan. schedule. At least I hope that is the case. I also think they are waiting until the KRMA Mt. Morrison application is ruled on too. I don't remember when they are supposed to hear on that one. Does anyone else know? Of course, my own question is why didn't the LCG do the application right in the first place two years ago, but I guess at this point that is a rhetorical question.

Given the track record of all of the parties involved, like the KCNC low power feed which was going to be on the air in Sept., then Oct., etc. etc., I will believe it when I see it.

I just stumbled across this link. It has a ton of info on the history of our 'Predicament'.

City & Mountain View's Website (http://www.citymtnviews.com/AntennaMainPage.asp)

No KCNC-35 as of 3:12pm
Time's runnin' out...

Still nothin, nada, zippo from KCNC
Jeff

JMartinKo:

I have been browsing this forum for a few weeks getting up to date on HDTV in the area. I noticed that you also live in Boulder. I am up north of Boulder in Lake Valley.

The questions I have are: how successful are you at getting OTA HDTV ? What stations do you pick up ? Since Lake Valley has covenents against outside antennas, What are my chances with rabbit ears. Any better than slim to none ? If there is a chance, any rabbit ears reccomendation. What signals can I hope to receive?

Any help would be appreciated.

Gene

See Sig about how to deal with HOA's covenants against outside antennas.

Originally posted by etkennedy1
JMartinKo:

I have been browsing this forum for a few weeks getting up to date on HDTV in the area. I noticed that you also live in Boulder. I am up north of Boulder in Lake Valley.

The questions I have are: how successful are you at getting OTA HDTV ? What stations do you pick up ? Since Lake Valley has covenents against outside antennas, What are my chances with rabbit ears. Any better than slim to none ? If there is a chance, any rabbit ears reccomendation. What signals can I hope to receive?

Any help would be appreciated.

Gene

Gene
Welcome to the forum and the Denver thread. We are always encouraging new members to contribute so we are glad to have you on board.

In answer to your question, I am in the Gunbarrel area (outside the HOA restriction area since I have numerous outside antennas including a 12 foot C/Ku dish), and do get some OTA. I use and 8 foot Radio Shaft UHF only antenna (approx $50) mounted on a pole outside my house, with a single low loss coax cable running directly (no splitters) to the input on my OTA receivers. I use the OTA receiver in my Unity Motion Box, and also have a Zenith HD STB that I got from KRMA as a part of the enhanced TV tests. I swap the cable between the two inputs as needed. I get a very stable signal on both KRMA (18 from downtown Denver) and a strong signal on KDVR (32 from Lookout). Neither OTA box provides a signal strength measurement like some of the Direct TV and Dish boxes, so I can't comment on how much margin is available.

I have played with the UM receiver before and was easily able to receive KDVR with only a small pair of rabbit ears. The UHF antenna is necessary for KRMA as the signal is not strong this far north. You should be able to get it with an high gain UHF antenna though. Like everyone else, I am waiting to see if KCNC will come on the air from the Republic building this week as they have advertised. Word is that the KCNC singal will be slightly stronger than KRMA (a dB or two), so I would think it will also be available to us in this area if you are able to mount the UHF antenna in your attic. Forget trying to get KMGH (17 from downtown), it ain't gonna happen up here, and of course KUSA doesn't give a **** about HD so no one gets it. KWGN is supposed to be on the air next spring, and I have heard (rumor so take it for what it is worth) that they might be able to get their transmitter to work at low power on Lookout without Jeffco and (S)CARE killing it, similar to the way KDVR got on the air. I do not know if that is really true though. Maybe someone else can comment, as I have not heard much from KWGN for a while.

As for your HOA issue, if your house has wood siding facing downtown Denver you may be able to get a UHF antenna to work in the attic. If you have to shoot through shingles, asphalt shingles will attenuate it some, but you probably still have a pretty good shot, especially if you can get a large antenna (extra long) in the attic. Rabbit ears will only get you KDVR off of Lookout at this point. You would have no shot at the signals from downtown Denver. Hope that helps, once again welcome aboard, and feel free to ask more questions.

PS
I see someone has already posted the info on mounting outdoor antennas for OTA reception. You are legally allowed to do so regardless of what your covennants say. It really is a question of how well you get along with your neighbors and how willing you are to put up with the hastle of mounting an antenna outside. Check out your attic first and maybe you can avoid the hastle.

Thanks for the rapid response. I failed to note that my house is all cathederal ceilings and there is no attic. I checked out the URL provided by Scopper and I guess that the HOA can't prevent me from installing an outdoor antenna. However, I'm not yet sure I want to start the spread of outdoor antennas in the development.

I presently have DISH, nonHDTV, but am setting up for DirectTV so I can get Hdnet for Feb Olympics. I have ordered a Zenith1080. Unfortunately the HD offerings over both Dish and DirectTV are sparse. I also know with the merger possibility, the future is up for grabs.

Thanks again
Gene

How about the ceiling in the garage? The UHF only antennas are long (8 feet or so), but they are only about 30 inches high at the one end and the elements are only about 24 inches wide. Maybe there is a creative place you could hide it on the roof between peaks so that it can't be seen from the front or the street.

Is anyone located near the Lone Tree area (Lincoln and Yosemite) south of Park Meadows mall? I am curious how OTA reception is there. I read another post on here from someone near County Line and Holly (not too far from me) that appeared to have good signal from some of the low power signals downtown.

thanks,
Dustin

The sound of a signal on 35-1 and 35-2 finally! 3:15 pm. They have a graphic up..signal strength fluctuating around 75 on a Mitsu tuner and about 65-70 on a Dish 6000 tuner.

For comparisons sake I get KRMA 18 with numbers of 100 and 85 on the 2 tuners respectively.

Interesting Dan,

I'm getting the opposite strength readings
A 68 for KRMA & 78 for KCNC on a Dish 6000.
That's the west side of town, up in Genesee. I wonder if they have a slightly directional antenna?

But, Yeah!!!!

I see it here in Genesee too. Its the same signal level as PBS. I'm also looking at it on a spectrum analyzer . The spectrum is very flat ( ie very little multipath). It's better than PBS here in that regard. Must have something to do with the higher frequency.

Good work KCNC.

Just got in from work and locked up on 35 here in Boulder as well. Don't have a OTA signal strength on the UM box but it doesn't have any trouble finding it when I switch away and then back. Looks like the 'tax theory' may have been correct. It will be fun to see when they start to show programming. Now back to check to see if the Zenith can pick it up too.

PS
Got the signal on the Zenith box too. It does have a rough signal strength graph. Both KRMA and KCNC show up about half way into the good scale, or about 80% by my estimate on their scale. No difference in either signal strength.

Woo Hoo! I'm getting about 70% signal on 35-1 and 79% on 35-2 on my 6000, compared to a 79% signal on 18-1. 35-2 has the green KCNC-HD logo. Black screen on 35-1. KCNC may make their deadline yet!

Thanks, guess I gotta leave for home then.

Jeff

I am in Highlands Ranch on Quebec just south of Kohls and I get KCNC at about 90%. This is great.

I am getting 89 to 90% signal strength on a 6000.

Good to hear about KCNC progress. I'll be anxious to see if I can get it when I get back home (I have to get lucky to get outta Buffalo on Sunday...7 feet of snow since 12/24 is reason enough to leave)....

Holy Moly Geof!

Get out of there before someone hands you a shovel!

-John

Originally posted by sjcardona
I am in Highlands Ranch on Quebec just south of Kohls and I get KCNC at about 90%. This is great.
I'm in Highlands Ranch near University and Colorado, but just over the crest of a hill from downtown. I've been happy with HDNet and HBO-HD, but I'm intrigued at the thought of getting some additional programming. Where should I start in trying to get these signals?

Should I get rabbit ears and see if anything comes up at all before trying a directional antenna in the garage or attic? I don't really want to go through the expense or hassle of installing a 10' CM and running cable to it just to find out I can't get anything at all.

Thanks!

I see it! I see it ! 35-1...beautifull !
80% out here....I was late getting home from work, and of course the INSTALLATION was up on the DST-3000, and I was getting a signal on 35..I said "Oh my god"....I think I need to go back and stare at the green screen somemore....

Good Job KCNC......!!!

My AV receiver shows: Dolby Digital 5.1 !!!
Wow!
Jeff

FWIW -- in Brighton, with rabbit ears only, a signal strength of 28 peaking to 34 on channel 35-1. That's not enough to pull in a picture, but maybe if I buy a bigger antenna on the weekend -- wait a minute, Radio Shack's open till 8, right?

I can confirm the DD 5.1 report, though. Whenver the signal surges above 30, my receiver's 5.1 indicator lights flicker.

In other news:

Channel 18: 0
Channel 32: 64 -- watchable, but not stable.

Are you guys seeing the test screen and audio on 35-1? I'm only seeing it on 35-2. No video or audio on 35-1, although I am getting a signal lock now of 79%. My receiver is decoding the audio on 35-2 as DD 5.1. Now if KMGH would get to that point as well!

Originally posted by Geof
Good to hear about KCNC progress. I'll be anxious to see if I can get it when I get back home (I have to get lucky to get outta Buffalo on Sunday...7 feet of snow since 12/24 is reason enough to leave)....

Geof
Great week to 'vacation' in Buffalo! At least its a change of pace after all those trips to Florida for work. BTW, just in case you are the 'bad luck charm' that brought all that snow to Buffalo, maybe you should stay there till spring. I am not sure we need 7 foot of snow on the front range just now. A lot of folks from up here in Boulder want to get out of town to Tempe and back this next week. :D

Seriously, I hope you can 'get outta town', and have a safe trip back,

Same here on 35-1 Mark. The 5.1 notation is interesting (I'm seeing it also) but I dont think it will matter much once we get to the programming stage. At least at the Network HD level, as none of that programming is sent along in 5.1 by the Network to the affiliates to begin with.

Dan,

Very true about the 5.1, but what it does mean is that KCNC put in the correct equipment to pass along the 5.1 signal if and when CBS starts sending its shows in 5.1. Meaning, of course, that we won't have wait additional years for KCNC to replace equipment that should never have been installed in the first place. They appear to be doing it right this time around.

So I picked up the 80" UHF antenna from RadioShack, got it assembled and ran it and a length of RG-59 to the second level of the house. I was pointing the thing towards downtown and my wife said she saw 70 (!) on 35-1.

When I tune to 35-2, it resets to 35-1 with a grey screen and KCNC Test on the bottom right corner.

If I can keep 70 when I put it in my attic, I'll be happy.

So when does the real programming start? Will it be 16x9 HD or will they do something silly like Fox (what a waste -- the only full power DTV station in town...)? When will KUSA get on the ball?

Well, if the tax rumors are true, then real programming needs to start before midnight on the 31st. As for programming format, I think that we all assume that KCNC will pass the 16x9 HD feed from CBS...

From what I've read, CBS has the most extensive lineup of HD programming than any of the networks:
http://www.cbs.com/info/hdtv/

I guess the real question will remain if KCNC will actually pass this stuff on though.

- Dustin

Theres no question that they'll provide the network HD. Initially it will just be the national feed pass through, presumably from the east coast which means the primetime lineup will be shown from 6 to 9 pm locally. I suppose they could pass through the west coast feed instead of or in addition to the east feed also if they chose from 9 to midnight locally. Eventually the plan is to record the eastern feed so as to be able to show it from 7 to 10 pm as we're used to.

WELDON,

I went to radio shack on county line road and bought a $20 uhf antenna (pretty small maybe 3 feet long) and a short run of RG6 cable. I placed the antenna in my walkout basement in a concealed area and pointed it just east of downtown to get the best signals on all stations. 70% ABC, 90% KRMA, 90% KCNC, 85% FOX. If you don't want to go through that much trouble at first I simply put a set of powered rabbit ears on my TV and saw that I was getting a signal from all except ABC. Once i got the larger antenna ABC came in and all the others increased by 10 to 20% on signal strength. Hope that helps.

I've hung the antenna in my garage and am trying to fine tune the pointing -- but when I do a channel search, my RCA receiver tells me channel 35 is an analog station?

My 6000 definitely shows 35 as a digital channel. Have you tried rescanning, or adding 35 as an individual digital channel? If so, I'd say there's something screwy with your RCA receiver...

I saw color bars a little while ago on 35-2 with sound cutting in and out. Now, there's nothing on 35-1 or 35-2, but I'm still getting between 75% and 80% signal from both. I wonder what they're doing today? Anyone know what their testing process entails?

My antenna is just pointed wrong and maybe it's too low. I didn't get the 70 reading last night until I took it upstairs. I don't think I could get it into the attic (too many cross beams and stuff for the wings to fit through) and I'm too chicken to go onto my roof.

I'll keep trying...as long as you guys can still get a signal strength, I should be able to get the same thing -- signal strength but possibly no picture right?

I have no problem getting low 80s on Fox -- now I'm REALLY impatient for full strength transmitters.

Yeah, at the moment, no picture or sound but strong signal on both channels. Good luck!

OK, I was just pointing the wrong way. I can get a stable 40 now, which is enough to get me a picture "KCNC-DT/DENVER/Channel 35/Testing" on 35-1 with 35-2 redirecting me to 35-1.

Thanks for the confirmation that they were still on the air. Tomorrow we'll see if we can't get anything above 40.

Watching color bars now...no really, I'm not obsessive :)

Does anyone else here in Denver have a lip sync problem on 17-1 and 32-2. No problem on 17-2, 7 OTA, Fox OTA or DirecTV. I have a Panasonic STB and NEC plasma.

I am also getting KCNC 35-1 here in Bonnie Brae.

Yup - definite audio sync problem tonight on 17-1 and 32-1...Hopefully KMGH will get it fixed by tomorrow night for the Alias repeat.

Some good news! I went to Radio Shack today and picked up a double bow tie antenna for $18. Even without a pre-amp and placing it on top of the TV (first-floor) with no special effort, I was able to lock all of the digital stations. 17-1 and 17-2 aren't strong enough for a good picture and 35-1 is pretty weak as well. PBS comes in strong enough to avoid any breakups. I'm going to put a long cable on tonight and try different positions in the room/attic to figure out how to get better signal strength.

I haven't tried another antenna, so I don't know if this double bow tie is really as good as everyone makes it out to be, or if I'm just lucky. I'm really interested to see what signal strength will look like after I put some effort into positioning.

Should I definitely get a pre-amp? or should I wait to see what positioning does for me?

Weldon,

I'm using the double bowtie in my basement (8' underground) without a preamp and locking onto all of the stations with little to no problem. 17 is my weakest with a signal of 60%-65%, but the others hover around 80%. You're a little farther out than I am, but I'm a real believer in this little antenna.

Mark,

Thanks for the reply. Its nice to know the audio delay is a 17-1 problem. I have seen small audio delays in the past, but tonight must have been a 1/4 to 1/2 second delay. And it appeared during live action of the game, a couple of packets were dropping out, not during replays or during commercials. Hope they can straighten it out. Go Bucs.

Doug

I just saw a full screen picture on 35-2! There was no sound, it was a still image of what looked like a camera shot right out KCNC's front door downtown, and it was only there for about 45 seconds or so before the screen shifted back to the testing screen, but it was there! Do you think that KCNC will make it by midnight tomorrow? Do you think that they will go live before midnight if they're ready?

Well now at about 7pm they have the CBS HDTV satellite feed showing the color bars and the CBS HD wording, ..so they can definitely pipe in the feed now. To bad theres not any actual HD on CBS tonight!

Saw a brief clip of 60 minutes on 35-1 ten switched to test pattern from CBS NY ..mmmmm we may have CBS on by the 31st.
Was hoping to see Erasure tonight in HD but I am more then happy to wait for a good consistant signal. Question for everyone when I manually put in 35-2 I am thrown back to 35-1 is this normal? Thanks in advance


-------------------
Keith

Freddie,

On my Dish 6000, I get both 35-1 & 35-2 seperately.

I'm glad to see the CBS-East feed bars. I was hoping we'd get that over the west feed. It gets a bit too late to watch CSI at 11pm.

Ernie

Thanks for the reply... this may be a habit of the DTC-100 receiver? not sure but at least I receive the signal :D.


Keith

Watching Erasure on 35-1 !!!!! maybe a good sign ooopsss just went back to test pattern oh well



Keith:

With only a 52-53 signal strength, that last minute or so of Eraser was watchable. I still get frequent breakups, but I'll watch HD with breakups over NTSC from DirecTV.

Well the Eraser that they were showing was just the regular channel 4 feed being shown on the digital channel. It wasnt the HD feed. As I said, there is no HD feed from the actual network tonight.

Tommorow morning's The Young and the Restless at 10:30 local time would be their first opportunity to show any of CBS's real HD I believe.

I escaped snowy Western NY and made it home only to find my HDTV work for about 30 minutes and then die. No HD in my immediate future until it gets fixed....damn...

I'm getting a signal reading of 44 or so on 35-1. It will be enough to get a picture but there's not a lot of margin....Dan what are your current readings? Have you had any luck w/fine tuning?

FWIW, All I can say about the snow is there were reports of 81+ inches in some places although the most I saw was 4-5 feet (there were no drifts - yet). I don't doubt the reports though. If we got any semblence of that it would shut this place down for a good week but they grin and bear it back in NY. It was cool to see that happen but then again it reinforced why I left the area after High School........

Dan - I realize that wasn't HD. The "wow" in my previous post was more that I can get a watchable picture with such low signal strength. The PQ (obviously) wasn't impressive. Maybe tomorrow after work...what's first, King of Queens at 6:00?

Welcome back Geof. I'm getting 35 at 93-100 tonight on my Mitsubishi . Compared with the usual full blown 100 on 18 which is about right I guess since they're both coming from the same place and all. And my antenna is a little off kilter anyway trying to get 17 into the mix also. Which I happen to be getting at around 44 right now I suppose. The colder temps are helping that one for me. What happened to your equipment Geof? The Pioneer malfunctioning?

And yeah dr_mal, KOQ's will be kicking off CBS's HD tomorrow night at 6 local. Would seem to me all systems are now go for it to be shown here... though perhaps not without some glitches.

Huh...I leave for 3 hours to watch the Tantalus special on PBS here tonight (which was very good, if not HD, BTW) and look at the explosion! Cool...here's hoping we're all watching stable CBS HD tomorrow!

Thanks for the info Dan. It sounds like Ch35 has a bit less power than Ch 18 (in this direction at least). Last evening Ch 18 was coming in at 93 or so and Ch 35 was running at 44 on the meter. I'll probably tweak the antenna a bit to try and improve reception on Ch 35. I think I am right on the fringe of "seeing around" the ridge and I suspect diffraction is the reason I can get anything at all.

The Pioneer is almost black.....the picture seems to be about "1000 times" darker than normal (it is unwatchable). I don't know what happened or how quickly it happened - I was unpacking in another room and when I walked back in the room I noticed the problem.

Well that sux Geof. Could it be the 1080i output of the Mits, or are you seeing the same thing from the Pioneer regardless of which input you switch to on it?

So you guys are getting 18 stronger than 35? Even with my "high" 55 or so on 35, I can't get any strength at all from 18. It just displays "--" where the number would be. Can they "aim" their transmitters? Is it possible that 18 is "aiming" south to hit the more affluent Highlands Ranch area? Could KCNC reaim their transmitter and lose me my signal?

I just watched the opening of The Price is Right on 35-2. Getting between 80%-85% signal quality, sound is nicely in sync but lots and lots of pixellation. The KCNC-HD testing logo in the lower right corner is no longer there. On my 6000, I still have nothing in 35-1...seems to be reversed from others who have 35-1 and nothing on 35-2. I wonder what's up with that? Anyway, Picture and sound are there, so KCNC's getting close!

The TV is busted in all modes - even when using the internal NTSC tuner. It seems to work okay when I call up the convergence grid though....

Dr_mal - don't know if the stations are using directional antenna's or not.

Today I'm getting a 55 reading for KCNC-DT (versus 44 last evening) but KRMA is still reading 93 or so. I watched KRMA-DT for several hours with a mid-40's reading before I mounted it in the attic and I didn't experience one video or sound dropout. With a mid-50 reading the KCNC-DT signal has numerous video and sound dropouts. Unless this gets better it will be unwatchable - anyone else seeing these dropouts or is it happening because my signal level is too low??

Oops, Mark, you may have answered my question....your post didn't show up till I posted this message...

It's hard to say dr_mal. While I believe that both stations are about equal all things consdiered, I'm sure that if you're out in the fringe areas you could see some anomalies. That said, there shouldnt be any reason that you wouldnt get 18 even in the least. Maybe it's still a setup issue or an antenna issue. But 18's signal isnt really too bad.

Mark, as far as the 35-1, 35-2 issue, I see the same thing you see with my 6000, but those of us who also use DirecTv HD receivers with the APG are the ones only seeing 35-1 right now because since thats the only truly active channel of the 2, the receiver is just remapping the active one to -1. If there was distinct programming on both, I'm sure the dtv receivers would then report both.

At least thats my interpretation. :)

And geof, even with a really strong signal on 35, I'm seeing the same PQ problems. Maybe we'll know more at the bottom of the hour if they try and pass through the HDTV feed of Y&R, as opposed to just showing the channel 4 feed.

Geof -

That's a real bummer about your TV...KCNC still has some work left to do to get everything nailed down, but I'm pretty pleased to see anything at all. Definitely not a signal quality problem.

Of course, I want it perfect, and that's what I expect to see when they're done, but the fact that there is a moving picture coming from 35 when yesterday at this time there wasn't anything but a black screen with a logo, and this time last week there was dead air...pretty exciting IMO.

Never thought I would post this!.......Anyone watching the young and the restless in HD this morning? I, unfortunately, can't get to the house until around 12:00, so I will miss this first opportunity.
Jeff

I can honestly say that today was the 1st time ever that I was looking forward to watching a soap...but alas, it's not the HD feed. Obviously not quite ready for prime time yet. :) Hopefully by tonight.

Whats strange is I havent even once seen them attepmt to switch to the HD feed..after switching to it a bunch of times last night, only to see the color bars since there wasnt any programming

Ooops, just as I said that, they switched...still major pixellation though.

Yeah, really bad pixalation and any one getting a buzzing from the Dolby Digital left rear channel?

The pixalation is on everything, Not just the Net feeds. They've got some internal digital bug to figure out.

Hello everybody,

I am a long time lurker who finally took the jump into hd two weeks ago on the prospect of channel 35 hitting the air.
I am on the ridge which runs from brittany hill over to just south of riverdale golf course on east 115th avenue with a clear view of downtown from my second floor.

I bought a U-75R high gain UHF antenna from Radio Shack to try out 18 and 32. After testing it by running RG-6 up to my second floor with great success, I installed the antenna in my attic. I have three F connector connections, one off the 300 to 75 ohm transformer at the antenna, one at the RG-6 distribution box in the basement, and one at the wall plate behind the F38310 with built in DTC-100.

My current signal strengths are:
KMRA-DT 18-1 88, KDVR-DT 32-1 76, KCNC-DT 35-1 88, KMGH 17-1 28 no lock

I have been watching KMRA-DT & KDVR-DT for a week and a half with absolutely no video or audio problems. It has been fabulous (the Simpsons do look better even with only 480P 14x9). When KCNC started testing on Friday, I noticed many continuous audio dropouts and video pixelations on only channel 35. which I thought may be due to diagnostics being run. It continues today and hope it is not the dreaded multi-path problem. Since my signal strength is good, I do not think the 1-2 db loss per connector is a problem. Though at channel 35, KCNC is higher up in the spectrum and may be more susceptable to loss with RG-6.

Hopefully the pixelation and audio drop-outs on 35 are just transmission kinks that need to be worked out or ongoing diagnostic testing.

Don

Buzzing here as well from the LS speaker - I wonder if that's caused by KCNC trying to send a DD 5.1 audio mix when the national feed is DD 2.0? Well, they have 12 1/2 hours before midnight...tick...tock...tick...

Edited to add response to Don...

Welcome aboard Don. I just joined the ranks myself about 3 weeks ago. All of the problems that we are seeing with KCNC are definitely on their end. They'll get the kinks worked out...hopefully sooner than later. Bummer that you can't get 17 where you are - their signal is probably blocked by the downtown buildings. One of their engineers told me a couple of weeks ago that they may be looking to move their transmitter to the top of Republic as well, which would allow many more people to pick up their signal. Anyway, welcome.

I think they made the IRS tax deduction requirement of having their equipment 'In Use" before they turn into a pumpkin...
I guess they have to have 'real' programming on the air instead of just bars/tone, even if it's not working correctly.

It'll just take a little time to get it sorted out. (I hope)

One thing I find interesting is that KCNC has already found a way to sync up the HD broadcast with the SD broadcast on channel 4. Otherwise the HD version should have been a half hour ahead. Which means one of two things. Either CBS is sending out a special mountain feed of the HD version (unlikely) or that KCNC is already testing out their playback server for the HD.

Have to see how it goes tonight as to whether K.O.Q starts at 6 or 7. They're making progress at least.

Dan,

The Dish CBS-HD feed had Y&R on at the same time (Althought not in HD?) So maybe KCNC can pick either the East or West CBS feeds to give us until they get a HD server on-line.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what happens tonight!

I think you're looking at 148 for the CBS HD right? But doesnt Y&R on that channel usually start at like noon local time as opposed to maybe 11 if thats when it started today (thus coincidentally synching with what we saw locally)? It might have started an hour early in LA because of the live football game today. Which would also explain why it wasnt in HD on that channel because it would have been on to soon out there to catch the usual HD feed from the network.

Anyway, I'm sure KCNC could pick either or both feeds, but as you said in an earlier post, when it comes to primetime... short of using the server for proper time delay, the east coast feed would work out better for us here. We shall see.

I just talked to Dave Lane, and he said that tonights programming will be in HD unless they have a failure of some sort. The occasional compression artifacts that we are seeing are the result of their Harris Unit Coder(the HD encoder box). They are talking with the manufacturer and hope to have it resolved by tonight.
He said that the first 8 minutes of The Young and The Restless were upconverted NTSC, the remainder was HDTV. Please post your comments and problems to this forum. He does visit it occasionally and read the posts. I'm assuming he can't post for legal reasons.
The last time I talked to him, he did give me the "this is definitely a temporary solution". He gave me the feeling that he thought the Lookout Mountain problem would be solved soon.

KCNC is on the air!

From Highlands Ranch Blvd and Broadway, I'm getting:87% on KCNC, 88% on KRMA, 52% on KMGH, and 98% on Fox.

I'm not getting that buzzing noise out of the LS speaker anymore. In fact, there's nothing coming out of the surround speakers, even though my receiver indicates that I'm receiving DD 5.1. That's the way it should be! Looks like they may have cleared the sound problem up. Hopefully their HD encoder isn't unrepairable!

Originally posted by Greg T
From Highlands Ranch Blvd and Broadway, I'm getting:87% on KCNC, 88% on KRMA, 52% on KMGH, and 98% on Fox.

You're down in a swale there with no clear line of sight to downtown, right? If you don't mind sharing, what sort of antenna and rig are you using to pull in signals like this?

I'm asking because I need to move my antenna to the garage or attic to improve reception (and aesthetics) and I'm looking for recommendations. We're only a mile or so apart so you're setup might work well for me too.

Almost 5:00...KCNC still pixellating badly. Doesn't look good to get their encoder fixed today, does it? Not much they can do I guess about hardware problems...I just hope that they don't take too long to resolve.

KCNC showing News 4 at 6:00 on 35, not King of Queens...looks like they got their playback server in place early for timeshifting.

Today we begin programming our HDTV station, KCNC-DT, Channel 35. We will be
in a shake down period for a few weeks with a few kinks to work out here and
there. We are however, finally on the air. CBS HDTV programs will be time
shifted from the East Coast net feed and will run in sync with our regular
Channel 4 CBS programs. We will upconvert (to digital format) all non-HDTV
programs and for the present time leave them in the standard 3X4 format. The
Channel 35 signal is coming from our temporary site at the top of the
Republic Plaza in downtown Denver.

I would appreciate any comments about the signal quality and the general
location of where you live.

Thanks for your patience. We hope you enjoy HDTV and CBS programs.

David Layne
Director Operations and Engineering
KCNC-TV

Got this email from David Layne this afternoon. It does look like they got their server to time-shift. I also did send him back an email about the bad pixelation, audio dropouts and the 5.1 L-Surround buzz on the CBS-HD feed this morning. I also told him to check this forum. (He'll get all the latest poop on every buzz, pop and dropout since they signed-on!)

Glad to hear that they will be leaving the non HD material in 4:3 format as opposed to some hideous crop/zoom. That way *we're* in control if we want to manipulate the format or not (in my case, not) via our STB's.

I noticed at 7 when KOQ came on they switched to the HD server for about 10 seconds then it hung up, so they switched back to the SD version. Thats ok, they'll get it ironed out.

Well, they made their tax deadline....good call Ernie.

Their signal level has dropped to 21-24 and I no longer get a picture. KRMA-DT is still hovering in the 93 range so this looks like it might be related to whatever KCNC is doing. I am not going to be fiddling with the antenna setup utill they are thru their shakedown period (with my broken TV it doesn't really matter if I can get 35 right now).

Anyone else buzzing in the front left?

Yup, getting the buzz. Hopefully, the problem with the mpeg encoder is easily resolved through a module replacement or software upgrade. If it is an unsolved Harris software problem, it could be awhile.

Even with the pixelation the high def picture looks great. I'm looking forward to watching KCNC a lot more than I ever have once things are fixed up.

Don

Was it really last year that KCNC started their HDTV programming? :D

HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone! May 2002 bring us all more great HDTV in Denver!

Even with the glitches tonight, I'm looking forward to JAG tomorrow and CSI Thursday. I've heard really good things about the CSI PQ.

Thanks KCNC for helping make this New Years Eve something to celebrate.

Originally posted by weldon


You're down in a swale there with no clear line of sight to downtown, right? If you don't mind sharing, what sort of antenna and rig are you using to pull in signals like this?

I'm asking because I need to move my antenna to the garage or attic to improve reception (and aesthetics) and I'm looking for recommendations. We're only a mile or so apart so you're setup might work well for me too.


I have the $19 UHF only Radio Shack Antennae. I have it mounted in the attic, I have a Radio Shack inline amplifier mounted about five feet after the antennae. I have the DTC-100 RCA receiver, so I have a set top antennae on Ant B input(for Fox even though I don't watch it,ugly crop and zoom), and the Radio Shack attic mounted UHF only on Ant A. It really took a lot of experimenting to get KMGH. In fact I had to do micro adjustment in the attic until I got the best signal. My reception of KMGH seems to depend on cloud coverage and relative humidity. As long as I get above 40% the signal stays rock solid and never breaks up.

For KCNC:

During last nights switch to HD during Every Body Loves Raymond, I was getting pixelation and sound dropouts. In Dolby Digital Mode I was getting a buzzing noise coming from the Left rear speaker, also voices are coming from the front left and right speakers, not the center channel. Although I prefer the 4:3 box for NTSC viewing, it's bad for my TV. Burn in. My preference would be to fill the screen and stretch the image vertically to fill the screen. The other option would be to replace the black bars left and right with gray bars.

This is what I'm showing should be on for the week in HD
Tuesday Jan 1st.

The Young And The Restless (12:30pm ET; 11:00am PT)

JAG (8-9pm, 1080i)

The Guardian (9-10pm, 1080i)

Judging Amy (10-11pm, 1080i)

Wednesday Jan 2nd

The Young And The Restless (12:30pm ET; 11:00am PT)

Thursday Jan 3rd

The Young And The Restless (12:30pm ET; 11:00am PT)

CSI (9-10pm, 1080i)

The Agency (10-11pm, 1080i)

Friday Jan 4th

The Young And The Restless (12:30pm ET; 11:00am PT)

The King Of Queens (8-8:30pm, 1080i)

Ellen (8:30-9pm, 1080i)

That's Life (9-10pm ET, 1080i)

There is likely going to be a lack of consensus about what format KCNC should broadcast when upconverting their NTSC signal (there is already a disagreement). When I toured the KDVR facility I was told by their Chief Engineer that they could/would broadcast any format but there was no consensus at that time so they continue to broadcast 14x9. The best way to resolve this dilemma is to broadcast both. I do not know if KCNC has this capability (KDVR does not) but if they do I would encourage them to broadcast 4x3 on one sub-channel and a stretched version on another sub-channel. I believe this is what some of the other broadcast engineers who visit this forum have found to work best.

I do not know what has changed in the last 12 hours but my reception of Ch35 remains poor. I am still getting a signal level of 21 and no picture (extreme SW part of town near the Arrowhead Golf course). Yesterday afternoon I was getting a signal level of 55.

I would like to encourage KCNC to discuss their status in this thread. I think a reasonable ground rule would be to limit the discussion solely to the Low Power setup. An active dialog between KCNC Engineering and their viewers could benefit all of us.....

For those that don't get the HDNet daily emails - they are showing the Rose Parade in HD at 10:58 Eastern.

I find Gregs comments about format interesting. On one hand you say you dont watch Fox digital because of what they do to the image (same for me) but yet you're advocating that KCNC manipulate theres too, albeit in a different way. I still advocate that it's better to leave the manipulating to the end user. My 6000 STB I use for OTA is capable of taking 35's current non HD signal and cropping it, stretching, zooming it or adding gray bars to my hearts content.

Perhaps the RCA doesnt give you all those options, I dont know. If not you could always watch the channel via s-video and use the zooming features on your tv which would still be better than any viewing you'd get on channel 4 and which must be what you're doing already with all the satellite 4:3 channels if you're that worried about burn in.

As you also offered, maybe gray bars would be the happy medium if some guys cant change the bars from black on thier own, and that would be fine with me. But what I do know is, from my perspective if they do anything like cropping or turning circles into ovals on what is other wise a nice crisp digital signal, I'll just treat them as I do Fox and simply not ever watch it except when theres HD.

Course truth be told, thats probably what I'm going to do anyway after the novelty wears off because generally I dont watch much non HD on my widescreen set. And for the few programs I watch in CBS that arent in HD (thankfully so many are!), well, I can always just watch them on my Dish CBS-HD feed where the upconversion of a 4:3 program looks stellar and unaltered.

I vote for grey bars on the side of 4:3 programs. The RCA will add grey bars on the side of 4:3 signals, but KCNC broadcasts a 16:9 signal with "hardcoded" black bars on the sides.

I had my widescreen set for almost a year before I bought a HD set-top box, and as a result, I have some serious burn-in from watching 4:3 material for that time (the manual did say to limit the amount of time spent in 4:3 mode - DOH!). If KCNC broadcast grey bars or sent the signal as a 4:3 instead of 16:9 image, maybe someone else can avoid the burn-in I live with now.

I have no problem making the black bars grey with my 6000. I like the way that KMGH broadcasts - with the stretched and partially zoomed image on 17-1 and the standard 4:3 image on 17-2. I very much despise the way KDVR broadcasts on 32 - the worst of all possible worlds. I get black sidebars to worry about, and a completely zoomed picture that way too much information, and no way to control any of it myself. As long as KCNC doesn't pull a 14:9 fiasco on us, I don't really have a preference how they broadcast. If they can put the grey bars in on the side, then that'd be great. If not, then I can do it.

Still lots of pixellation today, BTW.

Doing what 17-1 and 17-2 does with formatting as Mark points out would pobably be the best solution. Not sure what it would take though for KCNC to start using one of their apparent sub-channels to do that.

Just for informational purposes only, the RCA DTC-100 does allow for variuos optins for 4X3 material and the option of choosing grey or black panels.

I agree with Dan, let us decide what to do if they can't use the subchannels for non HD material.

For David Layne, my signal is at 91 with the RCA box. I live in the Lakewood area ( west of Kipling ).

Jeff

Let's let KCNC's David Layne know what his viewers think about DTV Framing.

I just started a Poll on KCNC 4:3 Framing/Sub Channels suggestions. If we don't let them know, they may start doing something like KDVR!

Here's the link... KCNC 4:3 Framing Poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103798)

Just checked channel 35 again, and they've got grey bars framing their 4:3 picture! Good job, KCNC!

Compression artifacts and audio dropouts continue though. Signal strength in the high 50s now.

Santellavision - I think one of the options you left out of your poll is to have KCNC transmit 4:3 shows in native 4:3 format and let the consumer's STB decide what colour bars to have on the sides.

Noticing the grey bars also. Also the artifacts have cut back quite a bit. When the pic doesnt break up I gotta say that that is one sweet digital picture! Good work guys.

I think one of the options you left out of your poll is to have KCNC transmit 4:3 shows in native 4:3 format and let the consumer's STB decide what colour bars to have on the sides.

dr_mal,
The 1st/3rd/6th choices in the poll, leave the 35-2 in 4:3 with no bars on the sides. I think most will prefer that option. Let them make 35-1 a repositioning for the non-purists.

Oh OK. I thought those choices meant to do what they were doing yesterday with hardcoded black bars as part of the 16:9 picture.

Anyway, these are details. I think we all agree that they should leave the 4:3 picture in its original aspect ratio and let us decide if/how to distort.

Any way we can get Fox's attention and let them know that there IS a strong preference to not screw with OAR? I think I read that the reason it's currently 14:9 on channel 32 is that the Fox people didn't know what people would prefer on a digital channel.

I've also read some other posts in this forum that seem to imply that Fox will occasionally send 480p 16:9 pictures (especially movies) -- any reason Fox Denver isn't passing those through?

I've heard the reason KDVR is doing that aweful 14:9 is that it fits better in their stations Plasma display monitors. Talk about egotistical! Forget about viewers & quality. Just go for what works best in the flippin' lobby baby!

And the reason they don't do 480p is that have not (as of yet) purchased the equipment to pass the 480p signal through, only 480i. How much did they spend on Zappolo and that bldg. that they couldn't get a couple of pieces of hardware?

KCNC just started their evenings HD and they've got audio problems. They're's no DD 5.1 Center Channel at all. The Right and Left Channels are reversed, there's a buzz in the Left Surround channel and now it's out of sync too. But the pixelation is almost gone - Yea!

Go David Go!

Big kudos to KCNC for listening to us! They grey bars are definitely an improvement over the black on 4:3 material. The picture is breaking up for me a lot less than this morning. Still occasional pixellation, but a whole lot better! The sound is screwed up for me as well, though. Exactly the same as Santellavision stated.

You guys are almost there! Keep up the good work, and know that we appreciate it.

Edit: Ok, now there's black bars again on the sides of 4:3. I know that I saw the grey bars at least during the commercials during that break around 7:45. Must have switched it back...

Edit 2: My mistake. I've been informed (very politely, btw - thanks guys :) ) that the grey bars are on local 4:3 material, and the black bars are standard on the CBS HD feed. Thanks for correcting me on that!

Originally posted by DP1
I find Gregs comments about format interesting. On one hand you say you dont watch Fox digital because of what they do to the image (same for me) but yet you're advocating that KCNC manipulate theres too, albeit in a different way. I still advocate that it's better to leave the manipulating to the end user. My 6000 STB I use for OTA is capable of taking 35's current non HD signal and cropping it, stretching, zooming it or adding gray bars to my hearts content.

Perhaps the RCA doesnt give you all those options, I dont know. If not you could always watch the channel via s-video and use the zooming features on your tv which would still be better than any viewing you'd get on channel 4 and which must be what you're doing already with all the satellite 4:3 channels if you're that worried about burn in.

As you also offered, maybe gray bars would be the happy medium if some guys cant change the bars from black on thier own, and that would be fine with me. But what I do know is, from my perspective if they do anything like cropping or turning circles into ovals on what is other wise a nice crisp digital signal, I'll just treat them as I do FOX and simply not ever watch it except when theres HD.

Course truth be told, thats probably what I'm going to do anyway after the novelty wears off because generally I dont watch much non HD on my widescreen set. And for the few programs I watch in CBS that arent in HD (thankfully so many are!), well, I can always just watch them on my Dish CBS-HD feed where the upconversion of a 4:3 program looks stellar and unaltered.


Actually Dan,
This is my concurrence also. I'd prefer the image be stretched to fit the screen, kind of like how my Mits does now when I watch 4:3 material in standard mode(wide images). If they can't do that I'd prefer 4:3 box with gray bars. I might stand alone on this, but I don't like what KMGH or KDVR does. KDVR cuts the top and bottom off, so you miss information from the top and bottom, and they reduce the resolution of an already low NTSC. KMGH does the same thing that KDVR does on it's 17.1 channel. On it's 17.2 station is gives us a 4.3 image, but it is so over compressed that the artifacty DirecTv's channel 7 looks much better. The 4:3 box with Gray bar that I'm seeing from KCNC looks excellent to me, much better than the other stations. IMHO.

At about 8:30PM my buzz switched to the center channel, so I had to disable it on my receiver to get it to shut up.
I think the occasional black bars that we are seeing are from the national feed. When KCNC inserts their commercials they have gray bars.
Breakups have definitely improved I was getting very frequent breakups from about 8:10-8:35PM, but they seem to have stopped. Stellar image, from the Guardian. Despite the weather I'm still getting 86% signal strength from Highlands Ranch Blvd and Broadway.

So, audio channels seem to persist, no center channel, and the buzz has moved to the center channel.

RCA-DTC100
Mitsubishi WS-55857

I'm finally seeing what all the fuss was about with CBS picture quality. Thank you Dave, and KCNC.

Did anyone else notice that the buzzing that was coming from the left surround speaker shifted to the center channel about halfway through the Guardian?

Buzz confirmed moved to centre channel.

PQ is outstanding, though. BIG improvement in the pixellation from yesterday (heck, even from earlier today -- I pity the poor engineer they had to drag in on New Years Day :) )

It's great to see KCNC on the air. As an additional point of reference... I was getting no sound at all about 9:15pm when I switched it on. Sound came on with buzzing in the center channel around 9:30 (times are approximate since I was switching between channels). There was no buzzing when they showed 4x3 pictures with grey side bars.

I should also point out my preference for 4x3 with black bars. I find the grey distracting. But then, I have an LCD projector that doesn't suffer from burn-in.

Michael

P.S. I'm getting the same picture break-ups.

Any way we can get Fox's attention and let them know that there IS a strong preference to not screw with OAR? I think I read that the reason it's currently 14:9 on channel 32 is that the Fox people didn't know what people would prefer on a digital channel.

I've heard the reason KDVR is doing that aweful 14:9 is that it fits better in their stations Plasma display monitors. Talk about egotistical! Forget about viewers & quality. Just go for what works best in the flippin' lobby baby!

And the reason they don't do 480p is that have not (as of yet) purchased the equipment to pass the 480p signal through, only 480i. How much did they spend on Zappolo and that bldg. that they couldn't get a couple of pieces of hardware?

I don’t want to be defending KDVR but the fact is there was NOT a strong preference one way or the other on Aspect Ratio. As I remember, I had to keep asking for opinions (most folks didn’t care because they don’t have any HD material) and those that did respond preferred 4x3 but that was a small majority (there were folks who preferred stretching to fill 16x9). The KDVR folks didn’t sense a strong overall consensus so left status quo.

Buying the necessary hardware to do 16x9 480p is/was a business decision. I pretty much concluded the KDVR Engineering Dept wants the stuff but because of low ad revenue, low numbers of digital viewers, and lack of significant source material, they could not make a “business case” for spending the money on hardware that only a small percentage of viewers would notice and then only on a small percentage of their programs. I do not agree with this position but from a bottom-line dollars and cents approach pinching those penny’s probably makes some sense – especially if you ignore the fact that you would be culling a select group of “upscale” viewers. That to me was the short-sighted disgrace of the KDVR decision.

Overall though, given that KDVR doesn’t want to spend money to upgrade their digital infrastructure to pass 16x9 480p even though they’re “90%” there is a telling tale. If they don’t want to spend the "relatively meager" amount to upgrade I think one could safely conclude the other stations don’t want to spend much higher sums of money to do digital.

There’s been a lot of praise for KCNC lately but the fact remains they’re late (very late) arrivals to the digital party and they probably didn’t spend a lot of money to get there (considering the tax write-offs). The low power setup relieves some FCC pressure and evidently some local viewer pressure as well. What they have done is all well and good (finally) but I don’t think we should be satisfied or lulled into a sense of “HDTV Bliss” because of it. There are still plently of folks in the digital darkness with no hope of getting CBS HDTV unless they "turn" Canadian. We need to remain focused on the end goal and that is permanent high power facilities on Lookout...

Originally posted by dr_mal
I vote for grey bars on the side of 4:3 programs. The RCA will add grey bars on the side of 4:3 signals, but KCNC broadcasts a 16:9 signal with "hardcoded" black bars on the sides.

I had my widescreen set for almost a year before I bought a HD set-top box, and as a result, I have some serious burn-in from watching 4:3 material for that time (the manual did say to limit the amount of time spent in 4:3 mode - DOH!). If KCNC broadcast grey bars or sent the signal as a 4:3 instead of 16:9 image, maybe someone else can avoid the burn-in I live with now.

I agree about the grey bars for the NTSC signals. I would either prefer a 4:3 broadcast of the upconverted programming so that my STB can add the grey bars, or "hardcoded/broadcasted" grey bars instead of black. The black "hardcoded" grey bars will steer me away from all of KCNC's upconverted broadcasting.

Geof -- that was well stated (as usual :)). As happy as I am with KCNC right now, up until ealier this week the only digital signal I could get was KDVR. Since they're the only ones up and running full power from Lookout, I was hoping to put some more pressure on them to do digital right. I was pretty happy I could get their signal the day I hookup up my STB, and then when I saw what they were doing, I decided to not watch it at all. If they ever decide to pass through a true 16:9 HD (even if it's only 480p EDTV) picture, I will re-evaluate my viewing options.

Am I thrilled that I can watch my favourite CBS programs in HD now? Absolutely. Am I thrilled that I had to go spend $40 (OK, it's piddly, but still) at Radio Shack and spend an entire weekend fiddling with putting it together, aiming, and mounting it? Absolutely not. I look forward to the day when KCNC is broadcasting full power from Lookout so I can reclaim the space that 80" antenna is taking in my garage and go back to some smaller set of rabbit ears or something.

I agree that we shouldn't be lulled into HDTV bliss quite yet, but the fact that KCNC finally came through with a low-power temporary transmitter is infinitely more than other stations (KUSA anyone?) have bothered to do, and I think they have deserved some (belated) praise.

Last night, I had a very good HD picture from KCNC, but no audio. I noticed that my receiver has switched to Dolby Logic instead of 3/2,1. I am guessing that the audio setting that they were using must have been interfering with the picture and since they are now (by) passing the correct audio format, the picture has become more stable? Just an observation.:o :o

I am having trouble getting a usable signal from 35-1. While my DTC-100 has recognized the digital output, the meter shows a strength of something like --------28-30-42----------29-55-33-------and so on forever.

Yesterday I did have a pixilated still picture, but no sound. OTOH, I get a solid 87 reading from 80/18-1. If it is true that both PBS and CBS are shooting from Republic Plaza, what might be causing my problem?

I have re-scanned a couple of times; that hasn't worked. So, back to my original question: any suggestions?

Thanks in advance. And, if you can, please hurry! I've been promising my wife CSI in HiDef for months now!

Mike

Mike,

Two things...
First, KCNC is brodcasting two channels 35-1 and 35-2. 35-1 is just black with no picture. 35-2 is their only feed right now. I can get both channels on my Dish 6000. Some has noticed that when they tune in 35-2 it automatically says 35-1? Why, who knows - anybody wanna' take that one?

Second, digital reception (with low power stations) is unbelievably touchy and I've learned that if you move your UHF antenna millimeters, it changes the reception dramatically. I had the same trouble. I would get one station to stay solid, but another would flutter. I'd move the antenna literally 1" either up-down-left or right and bam! Just keep playin' with your antenna, moving it... oh so slightly, and it'll amaze you, like most of us here who've already found this out.

If your gettin' 87 from DT18, you should also from DT35.

MRinDenver,

I'm in a similar boat. I got a decent signal level (55) on Sunday afternoon and early Monday, but then it went to 21-24 and no picture. I don't know if KCNC did something (my KRMA-DT signal level did not change) but it's my bet they are still "playing" around so anything is possible.

Meanwhile Ch35 is higher in frequency than 18 and any baluns/splitters/etc that you might have in line with the antenna may be more lossy at Ch35 than Ch18. This is also true of the cabling (especially if you have a long run).

In my situation I may have to tweak the antenna position a bit to improve signal level on Ch35 but I would assume that most folks can have one antenna position for both 18 and 35.

One thing I'm noticing too Geof in regards to 35 is the phenomenon I see on 17 except on a different scale. That is, with 17 alot of days during the day my SS drops to around 21-24 and then it comes back up to 44 or so during the evening and overnight hours. Of course I write that off as being on the decided fringe of reception to begin with.

Well oddly at least to me is that 35 is doing basically the same thing except the numbers are higher. It will peg at or near 100 seemingly until the air warms and then in the afternoons on a clear day it will drop to as low as 65 or so. Of course thats still ok in my case.

Point being, I wonder why 35 does that for me when as I've said in the past 18 always pegs at 100, 24/7. It could be because as you say 35 is still tweaking. But OTOH I suppose maybe thats just how it's going to be down here. And if thats the case you might have the same issues with 35 as I have with 17.

It could also just be that my big yagi is just positioned oddly which is what I must do to get 17 at all, and maybe thats why I dont otherwise stay even on my SS on 35 round the clock... and yet that same odd positioning is having no negative effect on 18. I dunno.

Hi guys,

I also cannot receive anything on 35-1 and 35-2. We get KRMA 18 with about an 80% signal level with a VHF/UHF antenna mounted in crawl-space over our garage. On 35 we get little blips of signal as we rotate the antenna around, I think I saw as high a 70% at one point, but we just can't find a place where it will pull it in consistently.

We kindof gave up for now thinking that KCNC may be broadcasting a lower power or something now than they will be, but we will keep on trying.

We are using a Dish 6000 receiver and it seems to not give great feedback as we move the antenna around... it just throws numbers up at us periodically, but they dissapear just as quickly.

-John

I think you may be right about KCNC fiddling with it. As far as the "Higher Frequency" answer goes, wouldn't that also apply to channel 80-1? I get solid numbers from there, and expect it would be even 'higher' than 35.

Or I am speaking about someting I know nothing about. (Not the first time, see my sig).

Thanks, I'll try to tweak the antenna when the snow melts.

Mike

Mike,
I think channel 80-1 is the "National" PBS channel number (someone correct me if this is wrong) but I'm quite positive that nothing is broadcast on that frequency...the receivers are remapping 80-1 and tuning in Ch 18 (in our case here in Denver).

Dan,
FWIW, I have noticed a slight variation on the Ch18 signal level with nighttime being a bit higher. I checked Ch35 levels about 20 times yesterday and it was consistently 21-24 thoughout the day and evening. I'll be curious to see what it is tonight since it's probably a sure bet that the KCNC Engineers will be "playing" today...

JohnJr,
Make sure you don't have any splitters or other stuff between your antenna and tuner (you can try to add them back later if/when you get a signal). I don't know the rooftop layout of the Republic Plaza nor how closely spaced the KRMA and KCNC antennas are but you obviously want to be aimed somewhere close to where you get the best signal on 18. Move the entenna VERY SLOWLY and let it sit for a moment at each position. You may have to move the antenna to a different location in the crawl space to maximize the signal on both 18 and 35....inches can literally make a huge difference....lastly, you might want to consider a UHF only antenna....these have better gain in the UHF band than the combo jobbies and they will be a bit easier to manuever in the attic because they'll be much narrower (the VHF elememts are long which makes the VHF/UHF antennas wide). Good luck....

Geof,

Thanks for the suggestions. I actually did go out and buy one of those 3' UHF only $20 antennas from RS and tried it in the living room with lower results than the Garage mounted combo unit. I will take it up into the crawl space tonight and try again.

Can the UHF only antenna be mounted in "series" with my combo-vhf/uhf antenna? Would that provide any benefit? Or would it be better to say point the UHF only downtown and the combo unit at lookout? Anyone have any ideas here?

Thanks in advance...

-John

PS. oh and I definately get a higher signal without my splitter and I believe that is how I was testing. At least 10% higher without the splitter.

JohnJr,
Combining antennas can be tricky and yield unpredictable results. It certainly won't hurt to try it but to do it correctly you'll need a splitter, which is a 3-4dB loss. In all likelihood the added gain by having two antenna's will be offset by the loss of the splitter. Also, if the signals are not in phase between the two antennas it may look like multipath to the tuner, which is obviously no good for either the analog or digital stations.

Alternately, you could try a UHF/VHF band separator/combiner, which is a filter of sorts (this device has less loss than a splitter). The way this would work is to connect the UHF only antenna to the UHF port on the UHF/VHF band separator/combiner and connect the UHF/VHF antenna to the VHF port (effectively filtering out the UHF signals from the combo antenna). The output of the device would then feed your tuner. This means you would use the VHF/UHF antenna only for VHF and the UHF only antenna for UHF frequencies. The UHF/VHF band separator/combiner has less than 1/2 dB loss, which is far less than a splitter (and a splitter has no filtering capabilities).

I agree with Geof. I doubt that you would see any benefit at all from running them in line as separate units. I don't really remember, but were you not able to mount on the roof?

With the problems you have had in obtaining the low power signals, I would try that approach.

Since we have so many new folks posting here lately, here are some suggestions on improving the signal and the ability to lock on the low power ones.

Use good quality cabling, shielded RG-6 for example.

Keep the run length short if possible ( I know this is impossible if your theater is in the basement and the antenna is on the roof, so it's just a suggestion ).

Do not use splitters, combiners, etc. that will serve to weaken the signal further.

There are many threads that indicate that using line amplifiers and the like have actually worsened the signal, so try without them first.

If possible, mount as high as you can. Inches can make the difference as Geof has stated.

So, bottom line, if you are struggling to pick up the signal from 17 and 35, try and have a single dedicated line from the antenna to the receiver or HDTV in an integrated set. If you have a strong ( relatively ) signal, split, amplify, etc. to your hearts content. We should all be so lucky :) .

Jeff

KCNC said that they've fixed the buzz and center channel problem. Post here if that's not the case. They said it should have been fixed by the showing of The Young and the Restless. The sound dropouts and freezups that we had last night were a result of the engineers tweaking and resetting things.
It looks like all of the engineers are paying attention to the posts here. The person I talked to mentioned that they are reading posts from the AVS Forum.

Well I cant say if the buzzing on the HD feed is fixed or not, but all afternoon the standard digital feed has been pixellating like crazy again as it was up until the last day or so.

...all afternoon the standard digital feed has been pixellating like crazy again as it was up until the last day or so.

I could probably receive this picture then....[tongue-in-cheek mode off]

I'm sure they'll get this fixed as soon as they can. I'd be willing to place a small wager they're having fun with the new digital equipment in the KCNC Engineering Dept these days. At least they'll be well up on the learning curve when they finally get high power facilities....

Has anyone noticed if they have a lipsync issue? KDVR-DT is really bad on that score while KRMA-DT is quite good (for me at least)....(I'm not one of the "lucky 6" and have never seen KMGH-DT so I have no first-hand knowledge on their apparently intermittent lipsync problems).

17 used to be really bad. They've cleaned it up some though recently. Even at that though theres still some nights where I notice it quite easily on my 6000 while not seeing it to speak of on my Mitsu when A/B'ing.

Meanwhile I sit here in the sun and "balmy" temps again, watching what were my daybreak SS readings on 35 and 17... of 100 and 44..dropping down to 65 and 24.

Thanks for the suggestions, guys... I think I will try taking the UHF only antenna up on the roof with a new stretch of RG-6 cabling and give that a go. (can anyone say walkie talkies? :-)

I think it's against my HOA (although aren't we protected from them for OTA reception?) to mount it up there so I was trying the crawl-space first. However, nobody has yelled about my two dishes that I have mounted so if it works on the roof I will certainly mount first and see if they yell later.

-John

That is weird Dan...
Does anyone know if the stations are changing power levels during the daytime?
Maybe you have some sort of mechanical connection problem...could something in your setup be changing with temperature?? One thing you probably don't know is how much margin you have with KRMA-DT since the meter pegs out at 100. It could be 200 dropping to 101 and you'd never know it.....

I dunno, I could even make it weirder by mentioning that when it comes to 32, which admittedly my antenna isnt pointed at... it works just the opposite. When the sun goes down and it gets cold...then I *lose* that one down to 18 or so SS wise, but during the day it's up in the mid 60's. I dont care about that station though so it doesn't really matter to me.

Actually until 35 came on board it all kind of made a little sense. Pointed at downtown, 18 works great, and 17 doesnt for obvious reasons.. but it working well some nights seeming reasonable.

32, well again, not pointed in that direction, so not thinking much about it either. But now 35 which should in alot of ways mimick 18, and does at night..also changing drastically during the daylight hours. But I dont know, maybe thats cause of 35 tweaking right? Yet for some reason I kinda doubt it. Now on a cloudy icky day none of this is nearly as pronounced. It's weird

Yep reception is weird,
On cloud free mornings KMGH sometimes drop to 40% for me, on a fully clouded day I get 65%. My norm is 52% for winter 44% for summer(probably because of the leaves on the trees). I'm sure all of these numbers would increase if I mounted my UHF only RS antennae outside. I think weak signals are effected by relative humidity. It sort of sucks to setup Replay TV to record NYPD blue when I'm out of town. I later watch it and find out that the signal breaks up every 10 minutes because of a weather anomaly.

In anycase, it feels good to be able to pick and choose what HD I want to watch. Instead how it's been over the past year, "If it's the minute by minute account of growing a rubber tree plant", and it's in HD, I'm watching it!

I got home and tried Ch35 and yeap, I did get a picture but it was severely breaking up. But, sometime between 4:30 and 5:00 the picture cleared up. It's looking good - no breakups in the last 15 or 20 minutes and just one sound hit (during a commercial). My Preamp is indicating DD5.1 and the sound is fine. The signal level is back up to 51+.

My problem is very unique.... Before CH35 was on air I could get readings of 85 to 90 on 18-1 on my DTC-100 receiver, now the readings on 18-1 are in the 20's sometimes 30's where the readings for 35-1 are in the 80's???? I did no adjustments to my antenna wonder if the 2 signals are interfering ?

Any suggestions using a stealth antenna no amplification .

Keith

Dan,

I'm seeing the same thing with my signal levels, just not with the variance you're seeing. 17, 18 and 35 come vary about 5% in signal quality with daytime being lower than night. I'm going to call Owen Smith at KMGH tomorrow to ask him how the process is going to pass the 5.1 audio. I'll ask him if KMGH lowers their transmission power during the day.

Mark,

On my 6000 the numbers dont sound as drastic as the ones I've been quoting off my Mitsu because of the way the scales work. But the phenomenon remains the same on both.

My 6000 always shows about 85% for 18. But 35 goes from 80 to 65 night to day and 17 goes from about 57 to something around the mid 40's without lock. A constant 50% being the general threshold for a solid lock at all on the 6000 for any station in my experience.

Speaking of 17, I see that the -2 feed is messed up tonight trying to watch the bowl game... good enough SS but a bunch of green squares, while 17-1 is looking fine.

I just checked,
No center channel. I only have sound coming from front left and front right. Center works on everychannel except 35.1. Can everyone that has a dolby digital receiver check the center channel.

Greg,
No center channel here either - just the L&R fronts (I didn't put my ear up to the speakers earlier). Sounds like they're patching the L&R Stereo NTSC audio channels into the L&R Front DD channels.....The preamp is definitely in AC3 mode though. Every now and then I experience an audio hit and the sound mutes while my preamp switches to DPL and then back to DD. Fortunately that isn't happening very often.

Oh, and no lip sync issues .... yeah ....

Keith, your problem is curious. Perhaps you could call KRMA and discuss it with Bud Rath (if anyone can shed some light on this it would be him).

If anyone talks with either KRMA or KCNC Engineering perhaps you can ask them about the antenna setup on the Republic plaza - how far apart are their antennas, do they "block" one another and if so in which directions....

I'm speculating but I suspect it's normal to have better signal levels in the evening hours (less atmospheric noise would mean better Carrier to Noise ratio). If one of the Station Engineers reads this and quits laughing maybe you could enlighten us (me).

Hello All,

I am also not receiving the center channel and I am locked on DD on Channel 35-1.

Are any of you seeing a "jumpyness" or strobe effect on 17-1 during the game. In particular, there seems to be some strobing effect on the longer shots as the play is moving down the field. There seems to be no strobing on the close up shots of the players. BTW, I called Fox today to inquire about the horrendous lip sync problem and apparently, they don't see it there. (yea, right).

Thanks

Doug

Hi guys, just got back from the "Disaster in the Desert" known as the Fiesta bowl. Haven't had time to read any posts, did I miss anything????
:D

I turned on CBS and it appears to be OK here. I have not had time to check the sound or anything else, but I do receive a picture with sound. Currently watching Leno and need to unpack, so I will probably test drive CBS tomorrow! Glad to see they made it on the air. I will go back and read the posts, but did they get on the air in 2001?

Jm,

Yeah, they were on air the night of the 30th with horrendous pixellation and sound problems. Gradually it got better during the day Monday the 31st, although the pixellation was still an issue. The Y&R was broadcast in HD at 11:00am on the 31st, marking the first (that I'm aware of) HD that we saw off of 35. Since then, intermittent audio problems and the picture is improving (less pixellation).

I also had problems with 17-2 tonight - decent signal, audio, no picture.

Sound problems tonight for me: I didn't have any center channel sound coming from any of the local dtv stations tonight - including PBS. I had to engage DPL to get any sound out of my center channel for all of the stations. Not that huge of a deal, but I did find it very odd.

Dan - my signal probably doesn't vary as much as yours does because I'm quite a bit closer to the transmitters. Just a guess, but it makes sense to me. On my 6000, 50% signal seems to be the stable/nonstable threshold for me as well. Fortunately, I usually get 17 at least at 58% and usually around 60% these days.

did they get on the air in 2001
It wasn't a pretty come from behind victory like John E. used to do but yeah, they made it - technically speaking.

My signal level is around 65 now.....I am definitely experiencing the "DP1 syndrome" (:)) on DT 35 but DT 18 remains fairly consistent at 93.....

It looks like the KCNC Engineering crew did a bang up job. The signal has been fairly stable this evening as has the sound and no Lip Sync issues! Way to go guys.....

Note: After digesting some of the comments made about KCNC and my own comments (posted yesterday) I want to clarify my position. I am still convinced that the majority of the LCG stations are using the Lookout situation as a convenient excuse to delay their digital implementation. Whether that is true or not is subject to debate and speculation but I'm also quite confident that the Engineering Depts. within these stations are very frustrated over the whole situation. I do not "hold them to blame" so to speak. So, while I may have no respect or regard for some of the station management (who are, IMO, clearly dragging this process out to their advantage) I do not wish to impugn their Engineering staffs. To that end, I still despise most of the LCG management but think it's only fair to say KCNC Engineering did a bang up job on the Low Power setup.

Then again, maybe I’m just an Engineer siding with other Engineers……:)

Thanks Geof I will inquire with Bud about location of antennas on Republic Plaza to see if the antennas are interfering at all.

Keith

Yes, I am aware that channel 80 is the national PBS feed. Strange as it may seem, my DTC100 tends to remap exactly opposite of everyone else's system. 90% of the time, I show 80-3, displayed as "PBS1DT" instead of 18-1, -2, or -3. Signal strength runs in the mid 80s, the pictures are gorgeous.

Channel 18 has disappeared from my system. And I am still not seeing useable signal from 35-1, or -2. Isn't digital television fun!

But maybe it is my fault.

I hereby admit that, in additon to feeding my DTC, I am guilty of running three analog TVs from the same roof antenna, and that my 80" UHF pointed toward downtown is wired together with the VHF aimed at Lookout. Just lazy I guess.

So Monday, when the snow is gone and the temp hits close to 50, I'll climb up on the roof and run a dedicated RG6 from the UHF to my DTC 100 and tweak it for position. That will likely help. I have 32 from a bowtie into "Antenna B" on the DTC, running about 72-75. But who cares about 32? For analog stations, I'll run the feed from by BUD.

Thanks guys!

Whew!

Well I finally got through all of the posts since I left on Sunday. It was about 4 or more pages worth, and I was only gone for 4 days. Sounds like a good time was had by all. As for me, I preferred laying in the sun in Tempe, and my trip was great except for about a 4 hour stretch on Tuesday.

A few questions and comments after digesting all the posts.

I did watch a bit of Letterman after Leno last night (I watch the east coast Leno feed so it is over by 10:30), and all seems well on 35 at my place. I noticed the same missing audio center channel you all have commented on, and also did not get anything from the rears (although knowing me I was tired enough I probably forgot to turn on the amp for the rears). The picture was stable and the sound fine for the short time that I watched, although I did not get to see any HD, only upconverted material. I mostly use a Unity Motion receiver, which is not a 'typical commericial' HD receiver (as it does MPEG satellite transmissions as well), and it does not have a 'quality level' meter on the OTA side. As a result I can't comment on the available power level like many of you can. The bottom line anyone up north this way, is that the signal quality is adequate here in Boulder if you work at it and use a good antenna.

My congratulations belatedly to KCNC for finally getting on the air, especially since I have been (and still am) one of their most outspoken critics. I agree with Geof's comments, you must separate the engineering staff from the management. I do believe the engineering staff is excited and eager to do HD in this area and is probably thrilled to be on the air. I also believe management is not committed to HD and probably only did this due to the pressure from CBS national, competition from CBS on Dish, and finally from some limited outside pressure from the FCC. I will NOT be satisfied or complimentary of management at KCNC until they are on the air full power from Lookout. The LCG is supposedly preparing what they expect to be a 'bullet proof' application this time to counter the opposition from (S)CARE. I will not let slide the fact that they could have done the application 'right' the first time and been on the air by now. They simply did not do their homework the first time, it saved all of them (except KRMA which came right away on the air anyway from town) a ton of money at our expense. Like most of you I have spent a lot of money on extra satellite receivers and other items just to be able to watch network HD from other sources. It has been and still is a royal pain.

Glad to see all the new posters on this thread and welcome to them all. Remember, even though they don't post, many of the engineers and also management of the local networks, as well as members of (S)CARE read this thread, although they usually don't post and don't admit it. Your comments are noted and the more numbers we have here, the more they pay attention. I would like to encourage other lurkers out there to also sign in with some comments, even if it is just to let the stations know you are watching.

A few questions to throw out.

Geof, what ever happened with your TV, last I read you had a dark picture? Did you find the problem or have to get it repaired?

JohnJr. Did you manage to get KCNC yet? It sounded like you get KRMA but not KCNC which seems strange.

Well, amazingly enough, my wife is excited to see the HD of CSI tonight on 35. She absolutely loves the show and before now, couldn't care less if something was on in HD or not. Given the choice, she would throw out the HDTV and get more DIRECTVO's. She can't live without those. Hopefully, the signal tonight is beautiful and the sound in sync.

Jeff

The wife should really enjoy it Jeff. CSI is a great demo of HD. I've seen it that way for over a year now. We probably will know more about what to expect from KCNC in a little while once Y&R comes on, to see if they have the HD feed pretty well sorted out.

John,

I was unable to give it another try last night. You're right in that I receive channel 18 w/o any problem at all and have ever since I got my Dish 6000 w/OTA. I consistently get somewhere around 75 to 85% signal strength on KRMA DT18.

I have tried now a total of maybe three times to pick up anything on 35 and have failed. I would see blips on my Dish 6000, sometimes up to as high as 70% signal strength, but then they would immediately dissappear and I would have 0 signal strength.

I used my Garage mounted combo unit uhf/vhf (the one I use for KRMA) and turned it back and forth and like I say, just blips on 35. Then I tried the 3' UHF only antenna from inside the family room where the 6000 is and while I could tune 18 at 80% or so, nothing on 35.

All of my attempts have been during daylight hours so far, and it's possible engineers were tweaking or something, but I am stymied as to why I can receive 18 so strong and virtually nothing at all on 35.

I will be trying again ASAP.

-John

JohnJr.
Good luck. Have you checked for grounding problems and loose connectors and things like that? It might be worth the time just to open and re-tighten each of the cables and connectors that you are using just to be sure.

The CBS-HD net feed still has DD5.1 audio problems. But the video is pretty solid.

Also the video switching at the break going into it was pretty abrupt with some loud audio pops and a nice still of the Guardian guy for the females HD enthusiasts... i guess!!!

Well I'd be the first to admit that I only know enough about the technical end of this to be dangerous but I'm not so sure that the audio problem doesnt have something to do with the 5.1 flag always being active.

I've seen the CBS HD feed for along time from various stations, Seattle, Boston and N.Y. and never have any of them lit up my 5.1 light since for one thing the network HD feed is only DD 2.0 to my knowledge. And those stations have never lit up 5.1 on any of their upconverts either for that matter.

Just a guess, but prolly doesnt mean spit. :)

Dan,

I had the Expressview for a few months last year, but only really got into CSI this year. I did see it once last year and was very impressed, but my wife has not seen it previously. Now that she is a fan, this might just do the trick.

Jeff

I just checked it here in S.E. Metro area (Buckley and Orchard) and had the following levels

Channel 18 - 88
Channel 35 - 82

This is with a Sony HD-100 and a big Channel Master up in the attic.

Oh yea and Channel 17 - 0

Later
Joe

This is from the Genesee/Lookout Area with Dish 6000/8VSB with 80" Channel Master in the Garage. (Also, with a hill between me and downtown)

KRMA DT18 - 70
KCNC DT25 - 74
KDVR DT32 - 90
KMGH DT-17 - Zippo

JohnJr,

Keep trying! You'll get it to work. I live about 3 miles from KDVR's X-mitter on Morrison. Get this, if i move my 80" Channel Master antenna 2 inches (Up or down) i lose KDVR completely! It's that sensitive.

I have 100 signal strength for digital CBS in Thornton with an indoor antenna.
This signal is significantly better than the "6" I get for the low power ABC signal with the same setup.
THANKS CBS. I can't wait to watch CSI.

dan leithauser

From about 2nd and Sheridan (4 miles from transmitters) on my Dish 6000 with 8vsb tuner and using the little double bow tie antenna from Radio Shack in my basement (300 ohn to 75 ohm transformer plugged directly onto the 8vsb tuner):

17: 57%-64%
18: 78%-85%
32: 65%-75%
35: 75%-82%

Numbers may be +/- a couple of percent... Some days are better than others, and night is better than day.

From Kipling area in Lakewood,

KMGH - 72
KRMA-94
KCNC-88
KDVR-72 ( admittedly I point away from their antenna )

Plenty of signal room from here.
Jeff

January 3, 2002 2:05 PM MST
Roxborough Village (Littleton)
19 miles straight by air from Republic Plaza
Channel 17 - 40
Channel 18 - 88
Channel 32 - 64
Channel 35 - 88
RCA - DTC 100 (software version A05.10.)
with "cheap" indoor amplified antenna Philips/Magnavox MANT400 pointed NNW

JohnJr,
I suggest you handhold the RS UHF only antenna in the attic and just keep trying different spots. What worked in my guest bedroom did not work in the attic (an 8 ft height change). When I went to the attic I ended up moving the antenna 6-8 feet from the guest bedroom spot. My HD box has an audible tone that beeps faster and faster as the signal increases so I just turned up the volume and listened for the best spot.....

JM,
The TV is still busted. It's under warranty so I wasn't inclinded to go poking around. I am stumped though because I just haven't figured out what could have failed to affect brightness of video signals but still have normal brightness on the internal TV menu and convergence grid lines. I'm in Florida now and won't return until after we launch a Titan IV. I have scheduled a repair and hopefully I'll be home in time (I want to be there to talk with the tech). I suspect it will be 10 days to 2 weeks after that before they get parts so I think it'll be Feb. before it gets fixed....bummer....

jk,
I'm envious of your signal levels.....maybe I can drag a cable over the ridge and hook up to your antenna....:) Are you on a high spot?

Is anyone getting sound out of the center channel on KCNC tonight? I'm hearing exactly what I heard last night - all of the dialog is being routed to the front mains. My receiver (HK AVR-110) is locking into DD mode and says that all 5 channels are active, but I'm only getting sound out of the front speakers. I don't expect anything from the surrounds, but I would think that I'd be getting the center channel. Does DD 2.0 mean no center channel? Or is it just my receiver not processing the signal correctly?

Jeffden..

If I may ask what antenna are you using to pull in KMGH?? I live a little farther west of you up the hill by warren tech and Red Rocks Community College would love to pull in the signals you are receiving.

Keith

No center channel in DD here either, but at least the buzzing seems to be gone. One thing a person can do to get the center active and some surround activity is to utilize the L/R analog outputs on your STB and then switch your audio to analog on your processor.

Having same sound as Dan and Mark, everything coming out of two mains even with receiver locked onto Dolby Digital. Wonderful picture on CSI though no breakups and consistent sound!!

Keith

Holly Crap,... CSI is looking reeal good. talk about a window effect. Every primetime show should be filmed by the crew that films this one. Excellent lighting, and contrast. Most HD looks good outside, it's the inside shots that differentiate the good from the ugly. 25 minutes into it, and only one audio/video dropout.
I switched my DTC-100 to PCM audio instead of Auto select, it switched my receiver into Prologic mode, and the audio sounds perfect. Center channel/left right, even the surrounds have sound. I'll use this mode until KCNC has the DD problem fixed.

FINALLY! CBS primetime!

For all of the local posters and lurkers here that have never seen CBS in it HD glory, welcome to the party. (I got here 3 weeks ago myself with CBS off of Dish!) It's a think of beauty, ain't it? :)

Dan - yeah, I tried switching it back to analog and DPL - sound out of sync for me. I just wanted some confirmation that it wasn't just me and my receiver.

Greg -- thanks for the audio tip. That worked really well -- the pro logic surround sound is pretty decent.

CSI looked just as great as I've been led to believe, and so far The Agency looks really good as well. I'm really looking forward to some new episodes now :)

Anyone know if "Entrapment" will be in HD on Sunday? I know Eraser wasn't last week, so the odds are slim.

I still have a slight audio sync problem -- anyone else noticing this?

No picture breakups, and only 3 very brief audio dropouts during CSI. SS is 51 tonight in Brighton.

Negative on Entrapment. :(

Very slight audio sync for me as well in DD mode - just barely noticible. I do have to say though that I'm impressed in the improvement in PQ from KCNC over the last 2 days. I've seen only 3 pixellations tonight since 7:00, and all of them were during commercials. Couple of audio dropouts as well, but definitely a big step forward. Keep it up KCNC engineers!

My reaction to CSI & Agency: awesome. Audio:great, video:absolutely fabulous. This was much better than watching the boring ball game (sorry, Huskerduck). My hat is off to the KCNC staff for pulling everything together at this time.

Current signal strength on E. 115th avenue in Thornton, 35-1=83, 18-3=88, 32-2=76.

Don

Donyoop,

I live on E 115th Ave between Clayton and Steele. Are you a neighbor??
We should chat sometime.
Do you have any luck picking up ABC?

Dan Leithauser

After watching CSI last night for the first time in HD, I was so happy! I sent KCNC a compliment. You might want to do the same. I am sure they have worked their behinds off over the holidays to make HD happen in Denver.

mailroom@kcncnews4.com <mailroom@kcncnews4.com>

Great tip Dan, switching the DTC receiver to PCM audio....worked like a charm received sound from all speakers as it should be, thanks!!


Keith

www.titantv.com now lists KCNC in their grid of Denver digital stations. There's no program listings yet, but at least they show up on the grid.

I watched "CSI" and part of "The Agency" last night. I turned over after the Huskers got down by 34 at halftime. This is a big deal for me, I think the last time I watched a regular TV show, had to be 5 or 6 years ago. Maybe "Dynasty" or "Knots Landing" when the wife made me. I mostly watch sports. I was very impressed with the PQ on CSI, very nice. I thought CSI was much better than "The Agency", but this had nothing to do with KCNC.

Am I the only one that had picture break ups last night? I think I remember seeing 3 or 4 of them during CSI. They didn't last very long and were not really annoying. Just something that I noticed. I don't think it was on my end as I get a signal in the 80's on the signal strength meter and I have not had these problems on PBS.

I also noticed a small lip sync problem as well.

Thanks
Joe

Freddy,

I bought a Radio Shack $ 25.00 antenna a couple of years back to get the first HD Super Bowl from KMGH. At that time, their engineering department were very accomodating on getting a signal check done for me to determine if I could get the signals before jumping on the roof to try it out.

They did checks at 6th and Wads, Kipling and Simms and all signal levels were fine, so you should be able to get it in Green Mountain. You might try tilting the antenna down at downtown from your location instead of leaving it parallel to the ground. It sounds dumb, but originally that was the only way I could get 32.

Let me know how it goes. The toughest part for me was getting the antenna into the car itself :)
Jeff

joej,

I had only one breakup during CSI and it was very brief ( a second or two ) and never had the audio sync issues you mentioned.

Jeff

I just got off the phone with KMGH engineering. Next week, they will be looking into what it will take in equipment upgrades to pass the ABC 5.1 audio. They do NOT broadcast on 17 at a lower power level during the day - the broadcast power level is constant. I haven't had picture on 17-2 for the last couple of days - audio is coming through fine, but no video. I asked them about it - this was the first they'd heard, but said that that they'd look into it today.

The Schedule for CBS HDTV is here.. it is marked in the Yellow Blocks.

http://www.cbs.com/info/hdtv/

The times listed are eastern/pacific, so subtract an hour for the Denver Schedule.

It does seem that the power level is weaker during the day. Around 8pm or so it seems to increase to acceptable levels.

I wonder why? (Cooler air?)

Thanatos
Thanks for posting the information and welcome to the thread. It is really great to see some new names on the roster. I guess finally having something to watch doesn't hurt. I hope the local network managers are reading. Yes, there is a market out there if you give us something to watch on our new sets.

Originally posted by markdl
I just got off the phone with KMGH engineering. Next week, they will be looking into what it will take in equipment upgrades to pass the ABC 5.1 audio. They do NOT broadcast on 17 at a lower power level during the day - the broadcast power level is constant. I haven't had picture on 17-2 for the last couple of days - audio is coming through fine, but no video. I asked them about it - this was the first they'd heard, but said that that they'd look into it today.

I get the same thing in Highlands Ranch. I use to get like 23% during the day during the summer, and 43% at night. Now I get 43% during the day and 53% sometimes 64% at night. I think it has to do with humidity/dew and who knows what ever else is going on in the atmosphere. Personally, I'd prefer KMGH spend that money on moving to Republic. If Replubic isn't an option the DD 5.1 would be very nice.
Hopefully, everything will be on Lookout soon, and reception will be a non issue(smile)
Anyone else make a conscious decision not to watch NBC Channel 9.

Anyone else make a conscious decision not to watch NBC Channel 9.

I have pretty much boycotted all the local non-HD stations for the past year and a half (the only exception being Bronco games). Last Wednesday was the first time I watched KCNC in Prime time in well over 2 years. KUSA can "bite-me" and for all I care they can go bankrupt. These stations have ignored us and the FCC requirements for almost 2 years and we'll be lucky to have any full power DTV facilities in 2003 (there is no chance for 2002)....9News cares my ass.....

Thanks JM for letting us know about the forum.. ;)

Reading thru the earlier posts.. I notice some wondering about power levels durning the day.. Can't explain it as power levels are not adjusted, the transmitter for KCNC at Republic is fixed at full power out..

The antenna used for KCNC is a dipole that has a triangular lobe configuration with one lobe pointed directly to Boulder which will place the Second lobe near a point inbetween Evergreen and Littleton and the Third Lobe somewhere towards Dupont and DIA..;)

Thanks Jeff I will try tilting my antenna a little bit towards the ground as you suggest. Correct me if I am wrong but you are not using any type of amplification to boost your signal on the antenna?

thanks again
Keith

That is right, I don't use anything to boost signal levels. I had read several times that they could hurt with low power signals, so I decided to try it out first.

I really have always been able to get all available signals, so I never bothered to really test the theory out.

Jeff

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this but while I was watching SD ABC news, they listed what was going to be on tonight. It was listed like this:

7:00 P.M. GI Jane (HDTV, 17)

Nice to see the HD getting some sort of recognition. Now only if the stations would have a segment to educate the viewers of the advantages of HDTV over SD

dleithaus,

I have replied to you. Check your messages.

Thanks,
Don

I wonder when we will get the first true advertisement on the news, etc. that the programming is available.

Probably just about when the Lookout situation is resolved.
They don't need hundreds of viewers saying if HDTV is available, why can't I get it?

Jeff

Anyone else watching Max Bickford tonight on 35? The audio is out of sync for me. Anyone else? Hopefully it won't be on Alias later.

15 minutes later...

After the commercial break at 7:30, the sound got totally screwed up cutting in and out - still is as of 7:45. You can hear about every 2nd or 3rd second of audio, and the rest is missing.

7:46: Audio popped, and the sound is back to normal now. Thanks...

Mark, Good to hear it's fixed for Alias!
Jeff

Mark, had the same problem as you then audio popped and all is well...

Audio was perfect on Alias tonight. KMGH had the sound in perfect sync tonight.

After months of lurking on the forum, I am about to join the ranks with my new Pioneer Elite 520HD that is due to be delivered from soundtrack this wednesday. I also picked up the Panny Tu-HDS20 STB to pair with this set.

I am wondering about an attic based antenna to pick up the OTA stuff. Thank goodness KCNC has finally started to broadcast. Now only if we can get KUSA on the bandwagon (fat chance!).

What kinds of OTA antennas are you guys using and where did you get them from?

thanks,
Dustin

Radio Shack brand outdoor antenna (currently in my garage) - $39.99.

It pulls KCNC in enough for a stable picture from Brighton, but I still can't get KMGH or KRMT.

Freddie, ( Keith ),

So it looks like you were able to get 17 if you saw Alias last night also?
What readings were you finally able to get to pick up the show?

Also, regarding antennas, many folks are using the double bow tie antenna from Radio Shack ( $17 ) for getting the signals. I use the $ 20 or $25 VHF/UHF combination antenna mounted on the roof from Radio Shack with no problems whatsoever. Many on the forum like the Channel Master antennas. You can go to www.starkelectronics.com as I believe they carry and sell the CM antennas. I , for one, didn't have enough room in my attic to stand, much less manipulate an antenna, so I can't comment on their performance.

Jeff

Jeff,

Used the same antenna you are using and finally pulled in at high 60's to low 70's good enough for a lock :)

Thanks again for all your assistance and answering my questions had this television long enough now I can really enjoy the picture and clarity of HDTV.

Geof how is your calibration holding up?? My cloth that was installed is slowly coming off I had to disassemble my set to reapply..hope your set is doing okay.

Keith

Dustin

I tried many different antennas and so far the Radio Shack or Channel Master brands seem to work the best. Stay away from Terk they were miserable in performance and cost.

Keith

ps: using the cheap dbl bowtie indoor antenna from Radio Shack I was able to receive almost every channel in my family room downstairs so this may be a good place to start for $17.00

Well, for those of you who've heard (and for those of you that havent) Fox network is doing the Superbowl in 480p widescreen. So what will that mean for us? Will we see it that way? On one hand we never see the 480p widescreen dramas from Fox on 32 (if we did, I'd actually watch KDVR), but there again, thats probably because they dont have the means to timeshift it for our timezone. But since this particular event will be shown live, I wonder if KDVR at least has the means to pass *that* through since it's real time.

Interesting Dan.

I will send a note to the KDVR Chief Engineer and await a response.....

Here is my email message to KDVR. I will let you know if/when he responds (unless, of course, he posts here first)...Mike,
As you may recall I toured your facilities with an advertising customer awhile back.

I frequently visit the AVS Forum (www.avsforum.com) where there is an ongoing discussion of the HDTV situation in Denver. Since it has become known that Fox intends to Broadcast the Superbowl in widescreen 480p we are curious as to how KDVR plans to broadcast this event. I (we) hope you are able to find a way to showcase your station and broadcast this in the widescreen (16x9) 480p format. There are growing numbers of H/DTV viewers in the Denver area and an expanding base of active participants in the AVS Denver Tower thread (which is in the HDTV Hardware section). I encourage you to read this thread to gauge local viewer reaction to the recent Fox announcement. Please let us know if you will be able to accommodate the widescreen 480p format. If you choose to reply to this email rather than post your answer directly in the AVS forum I request permission to post your reply (or paraphrase your reply) in that forum to spread the word to the front range viewing public.

Thanks,

Hi guys,

Well after moving both my combo VHF/UHF and UHF only antennas into the attic I am happy to report...

(DISH-6000 w/OTA from I-25 & Orchard, RS 3' UHF Only Antenna combined with Unknown 6' VHF/UHF in attic)
KCNC DT 35 = 75%
KRMA DT 18 = 80%
KDVR DT 32 = 48%
KMGH DT 17 = Zippo

I am using a "combiner" that combines the UHF from one antenna pointed towards down-town with the VHF from the other antenna pointed towards Lookout. I am also splitting the combined signal to about 3-4 devices later in the path. The levels were about 5% higher before I split.

So I'm happy. I'm getting all I figured I should get. Ya'll were right in that adding a bit of height to the UHF antenna solved my KCNC DT problem. If KDVR comes through on 480P Superbowl I'll adjust my antenna to tune them in at a bit of an expense to KCNC/KRMA... but untill then I am happy not receiving their signal at all.

-John

Jeffden,

If you have any difficulty with the RS Double-bowtie, you might want to try the big Channel Master 3023. (Remember, you can always take the RS back, if it's not enough.)

I tried the RS, it was good for strong signals, but soso at distant weak/multipath problem signals) I live up in the foothills, behind a couple of ridges from Denver. This thing is big, but it really works great at tough reception.

Here's the link to the Stark Electronics page with the antenna. They are really good and have very cheap shipping. Nobody in Denver carried this model???

Channel Master 3023 (http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmuhf.htm)

Well, if the KDVR engineers do read this thread, please do everything that you can to pass the unaltered 16x9 480p broadcast from Fox. There are many of us that are new to the H/DTV world since you decided to broadcast the 14x9 "compromise". I have a hard time watching what you broadcast on 32 because I really don't like the cropping that you do to the picture. If you were to broadcast a 4:3 480p signal, I would watch much more frequently, and if you were to put the equipment in place to pass the 16x9 480p feed, I would be tuned in for just about every Fox program that supported it. I'm sure that many others here would be also. Please consider it. You are in the position to really lead the Denver market, as you are broadcasting at a much higher power level than the other stations. Unfortunately, you are currently squandering your lead with your 14x9 solution. Just my opinion, but as a television viewer, my opinion does count for something. Not a lot :), but something.

Mark is 100% right. I do not watch the FOX broadcast either. But if they could/would fix that 14:9 problem I would definitely be watching. Right now I watch 0 FOX programs.

Later
Joe

Pretty much the same here, don't watch much FOX (OK, I do watch "The Simpsons"), but probably would watch some if they passed on the 16:9 stuff. I am not a fan of the current 14:9 compromise since I hate to have stuff cut off the screen. I would rather watch a slightly stretched version than lost the graphics etc. during football for example. It sure would be nice if they could at least pass on the widescreen Super Bowl, since FOX doesn't see fit to do HD.

Please KDVR, if you are reading this, pass on the 16:9 stuff.

Regarding Fox - 32, I also never tune in to their feed as the 14 x 9 mode loses info via the crop and allows for burn in on several types of devices. This is probably the least satisfying aspect ratio that could have been chosen. If 32 only wants to send out 4 x 3, then send us out 4x3 digital signal. I can't imagine the "compromise" really satisfies anyone at all as it is not original aspect ratio, doesn't "fill the screens" that some people like and loses information anyway.

But, that said, I prefer they find a way to send out what Fox national provides. A 480 P 16 x 9 feed should be passed. It makes no sense to lower the picture quality and make it less than the 31 signal.

Jeff

I agree with all of the above. I guess we'll learn more about the 480p widescreen issue when the Superbowl question is answered.

It's hard to believe that they simply wont invest in the record/playback equipment (if thats all it takes)when it comes to the weekly shows after all the cash they spent on their new facilities to begin with. If thats really the case I guess we just have to rue the fact that we live in the mountain time zone (only when it comes to tv) which is the only timezone where this would be an issue. The eastern feed is used by the eastern and central zones "live" and they have a seperate feed for the pacific zone (assuming the feeds work like other Networks).

Was interesting how quickly KCNC solved the time zone difference. Even they initially said that they would just be passing through the Network feed for a couple months, one hour ahead of what we're used to, until they got playback capability. But they went ahead and installed it right off.

No reply from KDVR yet but it might be helpful to know how many of us are affected by KDVR-DT lipsync issues.....could you all watch for a bit (at several different times) and post your observations? It might also be helpful if you post which HD receiver you're using. I know I always seem to have lipsync issues with my Mit's receiver....

I ran 75 feet of RG6 directly from the 80" RS on my roof to my basement, removing at least three splitters and a combiner. Then I did a little judicious re-pointing, just a few degrees toward north. And there it was: 35-1 pushing out to Wheat Ridge with a signal strength of 82-83, a match for 18-1.

And though there is still no signal at 17, I am happy to have KCNC DT. And to see that 6.1 Surround signal on the readout of my Denon (it's just DD2.0 this afternoon, but I have hopes) Thanks for all the great information and help, guys!

Guess tonight I'll see JAG for the first time. And next week, my wife's favorite: CSI.

I did something interesting, I think, with the RG6 run. About 18 months ago, we re-sided the house. I took that opportunity to hide all existing cables behind the new facade. My wife wasn't too crazy about a new, two story, run of black cable down the side of the house, HD or no. So, I bought underground rated RG6 and routed it from the chimney mount through the gutter downspout. It was the most direct route anyway, and so long as the outer casing of the cable stays intact, I don't see any downside. And you certainly can't see the cable. Everybody is happy!

Now, maybe someone else thought of this first, but it was new to me!

I just checked 32 - sound way out of sync...audio was maybe 1/4 second ahead of the lip movements. I'm viewing on a Dish 6000 with 8vsb tuner.

MR - you won't yet see 5.1 (or 6.1) audio from KCNC because CBS isn't doing any of their primetime shows in 5.1 this season. Maybe next season? But not yet. ABC shows are done with 5.1 sound, but even if you could pick up KMGH, they aren't passing the 5.1 audio yet.

I don't know folks. KDVR hasn't responded yet but if they are reading this thread they surely won't be impressed with the lack of comments on the Superbowl. So far I've only read 6-8 comments. Whoopy, big audience, maybe a dozen or so people who care enough to post their thoughts.

Perhaps we shouldn't be wondering why the local stations don't want to spend money on digital.......

If you don't want to post here please send a note (email or snail-mail) to KDVR. Lacking this I really won't care to read the complaints bitching about the lack of a widescreen 16x9 480p KDVR broadcast.....

Dear KDVR,
The Superbowl is one of the most important broadcasts of the year from an advertising/revenue standpoint. As the Fox network has announced that they will be supplying 16x9 480 progressive signal for the big game, I ask that KDVR pass through the digital widescreen signal on channel 32.

Thanks for listening,
Don Heckel

KDVR

Most of all feel your 14:9 framing is useless to any viewers other than the receptionist who watches it in your lobby on your Plasma monitors. And as you can tell from reading this thread...

We DO NOT WATCH your station because of it!!!!!

Are you that stupid????? Buy the freakin' 480p gear and start acting like a 'real' broadcaster. There's FOX stations in Po-Dunk little towns that are in HD, way more professional than you and most of all... They care more about their community/viewers than what fills up the frame on their lobby's monitors.

I will not watch your station until you start acting professional and stop spending more on Ron Zapolo's hair dye than you do on equipment. That's my opinion and i'm stickin' to it!

If I am not mistaken KDVR can do 480p with no problems at all, and have in the past broadcast in 480p.

But they do not have an automatic switcher for the commercials so they can either show it with no local commercials (loss of revenue here) or manually switch them (costs them money and everytime the guy takes a bathroom break and is late switching the switchboard lights up).

I hope they do the SuperBowl in 480p, and buy the equipement to do 480p on a regular basis.

Sure seems like they should try to run a plain 4:3 signal on subchannel if they want to run 14:9 for some reason (they may not have the equipment to run a subchannel).


------
BTW I updated my local DTV summary on page 1 of this thread to show KCNC is now on the air. (Finally)

RE: HD broadcast of SuperBowl.

"Hello: I just wanted to express my appreciation of your intent to broadcast the SuperBowl in some semblance of High Definition. While a 480p widescreen broadcast falls a bit short of true HDTV, it is better than nothing. I must note that last year your competitor broadcast the SuperBowl in true HDTV. I hope your capability improves in the future."

Ok, so I voiced my opinion. Happy? Like Jim, I am UNhappy that Fox does so little to fix their usual offerings. Football games are unwatchable on large screens (OTA, OTA-Digital, and DTV passthroughs are all blurry compared to ABC and CBS games--we all know why...) They need encouragement? Fine. They are still falling short and it is sad.

Ok, so I voiced my opinion. Happy?

Well, with all due respect, that's not the point. Personally, I won't even bother watching the Superbowl unless KDVR broadcasts it as 16x9 480p. If they don't I'll simply move on to something else and continue my boycott of local stations that don't do digital…

The point I was trying to make is that we are (supposedly) a group of Denver area H/DTV enthusiasts who would like to see the Denver stations broadcasting digitally. At last count we had somewhere around 150-200 folks who've signed up to the group mailing list yet only 6-8 people have commented on the Fox Superbowl situation. Now, I'm no rocket scientist but it seems to me that if there are only 6-8 people interested in a audience of 200 or so acknowledged enthusiasts how could anyone conclude there is any significant (or even meaningful) number of viewers who care along the entire Front Range. We cannot and will not achieve our "goal" of getting the attention of the local stations if there are only a dozen or so vocal people amongst the millions of possible viewers. Perhaps then, if we're not willing to stand up and be heard we should be willing to lay down and accept the status quo - and not expect the Lookout situation to be resolved anytime soon.

I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm on a soapbox - that is not my intention.

I sent my comments directly to the station (with no response yet).


Has anyone actually heard anything from the station on what they will do?

Brian

I sent emails to them on Monday. Haven't heard a word back yet. One of the things that I really like about KCNC and KMGH from my experience - you send them a question and they respond very quickly...

Here's a direct link to KDVR's feedback page...

www.fox31.com/pgfee.html

-John

PS. It seems to come up w/o their "frames" interface. If you want that (or the link doesn't work for some reason) go to www.fox31.com and then use their feedback link.

I sent an e-mail to KDVR yesterday about the Super Bowl. I also spoke to someone in Engineering who was not too knowledgeable about when they would pass through true 480p 16:9.

I don't know about the rest of you but if they show the Super Bowl in 16x9 480P I will be having a Super Bowl party which will also get them (and HDTV in general) more exposure.

If they leave it with the 14x9 crap I won't be having anyone over to show that off to.

When people come over now and want to see the "TV" I show them either PBS or HDNet. In the future I might be able to use CBS as a demo as well. But I will never use Fox unless they get that fixed. When people ask me what is available in our area for High Defiintion I don't even mention Fox.

O.K. off to the Fox web page to send them an e-mail.

Later
Joe

Here is a copy of the e-mail that I just sent to KDVR. I sent it to the General Manager, I think that is the best place to send this. It is about as civil as I can be:

"Hello

I understand that Fox will be producing the Super Bowl in 16x9 Widescreen and 480P.

I would like for KDVR to seriously consider showing this in the format that Fox has intended for its loyal viewers to see it in. I would also like KDVR to show the other programs in the format that Fox has selected for its viewers."

I really doubt that it will do any good but it sure doesn't hurt to try.

Later
Joe

I also sent a letter to their website to the attantion of the general manager.

Jeff

Thanks John for the link. I sent a copy of my last post attention general manager. Is there any way to encourage the print or other media to pick up on this story of the Fox widescreen situation and KDVR's intentions?

Don

I sent my message to FoxSports.com to the General Manager at the link provided above.

thanks for the encouragement and link.

I also sent a comment to KDVR about the HD programming, specifically the Super Bowl issue.

- Dustin

Sent my request to KDVR in regards to the Super Bowl

thanks for the link John

Keith

I called FOX31 and left a message for the program manager asking them what they plan on doing. I'll let you know if I get a call back.

Brian

I sent an e-mail, too. Just for grins, what will my DTC 100 do with a 480p signal? I don't think it has ever seen one!

Ok, I sent an e-mail to FOX 31. Hope it helps.

Is anyone else running the Panny TU-HDS20 receiving the Denver DTV stations? I scanned for OTA channels and it picked up the schedule/guide for KDVR-DT, KRMA-DT, KMGH-DT, but not KCNC-DT. I know the KCNC feed is fairly new, but I am wondering why it won't pick that station up in the guide yet.

thanks,
Dustin

The receiver's that use the Advanced Program Guide from DirecTv get their listings from a data base of zip codes. It doesnt even have anything to do with whether you can actually tune to those channels or not. But anyway I think you answered your own question. 35 is just to new to have been added to the database.

Thats my guess anyway! :)

You are actually able to watch 35 regardless though right?

I was just wondering if KCNC's HD feeds have altered anyone's real viewing habits long term? or, are you all just going back to what you watched before? Just curious.

Jeff

I think it's kind of hard to gage long term viewing habits based on the 11 days that KCNC has been on the air, but since I've gotton HD a month ago and got CBS off the Dish, I've added watching JAG and The District. I already watched The Guardian, CSI, and The Agency. Big change in viewing habits? No, not really.

I agree it might be a little early to gauge, but by the same token I think that for anybody that hasnt had CBS HD before, theres a good chance it will change some things. It sure did for me when I first started getting CBS-HD over a year ago.

Before I got any Network HD I probably watched but 1 network program, period. NYPD Blue. I never even gave the others a chance. Watched mostly movies. Once I started checking the Network shows out in HD, I found that I actually like a number of them. Now, between CBS and ABC HD I probably watch at least 8 or 10 of their programs regularly.

Originally posted by jeffden
I was just wondering if KCNC's HD feeds have altered anyone's real viewing habits long term? or, are you all just going back to what you watched before? Just curious.

Jeff

I don't know if it's just me and my set-up (Barco 1200 projector, Dish 6000 w/OTA, Dish Network) but...

(watching standard def football);

CBS Channel 4 OTA looks aweful (like edge enhancement all over... really nasty)
CBS Channel 768/8204 (or whatever) DISH network (better than channel 4 OTA, but pretty darn soft... like the opposite of edge enhancement)
CBS Channel 9504 HD feed (best of the bunch, until...)
CBS DT Channel 35 <-- That's what I watch now!

-John

The football on 35 does look pretty darn good compared to other available sources for the same thing..certainly some artifacts here and there, nothing major. But where I'm blown away with the PQ on 35 is during their local news programs. The studio shots, some of those are unreal (short of being true HD themselves). GREAT quality.

Again I've seen upconverted local news from all over the country for quite some time (albeit delivered via DBS but on full bandwidth transponders so there wasnt any real diff there, just as the network HD looks just as good) and 35 is absolutely as sharp as any of em.

Hey Jeff

I guess it has, I was pretty bummed that CSI was not on last night. I also would have watched the Agency.

I would have watched the Michael Jackson special if it had been in HD, I checked and when it came on in 4x3 I switched to something else.

Before Channel 35 came on the air the only thing I watched was off the local channels was the news.

Later
Joe

Friday morning, still no response of any kind from KDVR...looks like they're ignoring us.

I noticed for the first time last night watching KCNC (35 of course) that on some of their graphic screens in very little text in the lower left corner, they now say KCNC-DT 35. Nice to see that some of the graphics now acknowledge that 35 exists.

Originally posted by jeffden
I was just wondering if KCNC's HD feeds have altered anyone's real viewing habits long term? or, are you all just going back to what you watched before? Just curious.

Jeff

Before HDTV I never watched primetime. Movies only. Now I can't miss: Alias, NYPD Blue, The Practice(when it's in HD), Darma and Greg, My Wife and Kids, and now CSI. I'll probably add other CBS shows as I start watching more. It's hard not to become a TV head, when we have so much HD available to us. I try to turn on the TV for the show that I want, and turn it off, when it's done.

Thanks for the responses guys. I know 11 days is hardly a definitive block of time to judge long term, but with other sources, many folks in other threads have decided very quickly that it was redundant, etc. I also find myself watching more network stuff than in the past.

I really believe that this is the message that needs to be sent to the stations. We really watch more TV with HD versions of shows and are willing to try out new shows when they are in HD. HDTV actually increases viewership and eventually will translate into more dollars in revenue. I had watched NYPD Blue occasionally for a few years, but never worried if I missed a week. Now, I try to make sure I catch it weekly. On CBS, the Agency is one that will be similar. I watched when ER wasn't on or was a repeat, but now I make a point to stay on CBS to watch BECAUSE it is on in HDTV OTA locally.

Hope someone locally in station mgmt experiences an epiphany and realizes some of this.

Jeff

I agree that the availability of HD will change viewing habits. My current priorities after nfl sunday ticket are:
#1) live events on hdnet (ivy league bb was great 2nite, but they need a steadier camera mount)
#2) any new PBS HD programming (I would really like to see the other 53 minutes of the ryan interview)
#3) CBS primetime shows especially jag
#4) HBO-HD movie if I have seen it less than 3 times

I'm watching a lot more cbs and find that the quality of cbs primetime is better than I had thought except for the comedies.

Don