Originally posted by santellavision
Good point Ron!

If you have say... and older Sears Kenmore receiver (like Ron) you might get some weird remapings. ;) It's an Eniac (http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~museum/) model!:D It'll be 60 years old when the LCG tower goes live.

I have a buddy that just replaced his old TV. It was a "Megatron"! And no, I'm not making that up.

Originally posted by santellavision
Good point Ron!

If you have say... and older Sears Kenmore receiver (like Ron) you might get some weird remapings. ;)
Isn't that the unit that also keeps your beer cold and does the laundry while you watch the evening programming???? It would be worth having even with the re-mapping problems. I'll bet it cost a big bundle.
:D

An HDTV Tuner that you have to feed PUNCHCARDS!

I hope nobody beats me to my patent idea!

so i think I've got is this correct.

KMGH TV7 - DT17 - Remap DT7.1 & 7.2

so in order to try to get this station i need a better UHF antenna there old number is 7 and they want to still be known by 7.1 & 7.2 but if i want to increase my chance of getting it i need to pull in channel 17 (UHF).

furthermore for DTV in the metro denver area i only need a UHF antenna not a combination VHF/UHF.

so is this all correct?

thanks
chuck

by the way here is what i get ...
02.1/02.2 75%
04.1 69%
06.1 95%
09.1 100%
12.1/.2/.3 100%
32.1 50%

7.1 0-11%
and i live near 4 mile house (its across the street) Holley and leetsdale

Originally posted by svochuck
so i think I've got is this correct.

KMGH TV7 - DT17 - Remap DT7.1 & 7.2

so in order to try to get this station i need a better UHF antenna there old number is 7 and they want to still be known by 7.1 & 7.2 but if i want to increase my chance of getting it i need to pull in channel 17 (UHF).

furthermore for DTV in the metro denver area i only need a UHF antenna not a combination VHF/UHF.

so is this all correct?

thanks
chuck

by the way here is what i get ...
02.1/02.2 75%
04.1 69%
06.1 95%
09.1 100%
12.1/.2/.3 100%
32.1 50%

7.1 0-11%
and i live near 4 mile house (its across the street) Holley and leetsdale You are correct.
Good luck pulling in KMGH though. They are extremely low power and transmit from the rooftop of their 5 story building making reception iffy and difficult at best. Most successful reports come from the South and West of of town.

Originally posted by svochuck
so i think I've got is this correct.

KMGH TV7 - DT17 - Remap DT7.1 & 7.2

so in order to try to get this station i need a better UHF antenna there old number is 7 and they want to still be known by 7.1 & 7.2 but if i want to increase my chance of getting it i need to pull in channel 17 (UHF).

furthermore for DTV in the metro denver area i only need a UHF antenna not a combination VHF/UHF.

so is this all correct?


As Geof said.. yeah it's correct. Have you mentioned which tuner and what type of antenna arrangement you're currently using?

" Have you mentioned which tuner and what type of antenna arrangement you're currently using?"

maybe somewhere else... anyways i have a radioshack VU-190 XR without the second part on it (large vhf portion) mounted in my attic (asphalt shingle)

and a HTPC with a MYHD 120 card.

and a Sanyo PLV-Z2 6 foot wide screen in dedicated home theater.

i have a evaporative cooler on my roof so i think i could put up a large rectangle shaped antenna without too much guff my my wife...

chuck

Sorry if this is "off thread" but, was wondering if anyone knew when Comcast will begin carrying {you guessed it} ABC. So for I'm pretty happy with it, the stuff on INHD incredible !! Watching the Daytona 500 in HD was awesome too.

PS.. I wash I hadn't wasted my time hanging a Channelmaster and fishing RG-6 to my attic !! Oh well... its a good backup I guess.

No word yet on KMGH, but you might be getting KWGN soon on Comcast.

Any Updates on UPN?

denverdtv doesn't mention low power, but antennaweb.org mentions early March.

Now that I have my 921 I'm seeing what I've been missing. Of course, I'm looking for Enterprise.

I'm near the giant Morman temple at University and County Line with a roof mounted Radio Shack UHF antenna (top of the hill - good line of site). Getting very good signal (even ABC is pulling better then 80%).

PS: http://www.denverdtv.info/ doesn't work for me from work, but this does:

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/denverdtv.htm

UPN has pretty much said they are not going to do anything temporary. We'll get "Enterprise" (if its still on) when the LCG tower goes live.

PS> Try http://denverdtv.info (without the 'www')

Bummer.

At least the other low-power stations are getting a lot of the bugs out now.

UPN is going to be a baby when they finally turn on (though if Enterprise is gone I'll not notice).

Thanks for the quick response.

David,

I didn't realize that you're in Denver (or maybe I did, and just didn't remember). And damn, you get KMGH way down there on your 921 better than I get it from 2nd and Sheridan on mine!

Originally posted by markdl
David,

I didn't realize that you're in Denver (or maybe I did, and just didn't remember). And damn, you get KMGH way down there on your 921 better than I get it from 2nd and Sheridan on mine!

Yep, that's me. Well, they say it's better to the South, and I'm pretty high on the hill.

Still get some glitches once in awhile (on the Sat channels too).

Originally posted by David_Levin
Yep, that's me. Well, they say it's better to the South, and I'm pretty high on the hill.

Still get some glitches once in awhile (on the Sat channels too).

Mark,

My 921 doesn't tune 4.1 but my internal tuner in my Sony Widescreen does. Is it just software in the 921, or is the Digital HD tuner in the 921 that sensitive?

Thx!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David_Levin
[B]
I'm near the giant Morman temple at University and County Line with a roof mounted Radio Shack UHF antenna (top of the hill - good like of site). Getting very good signal (even ABC is pulling better then 80%).

QUOTE]


I've got 2 other friends that I setup with the $20 Radio Shack UHF antanne, it is just great at pulling in DTV stations. I get all of the stations (even KMGH) with this baby mounted to my chimney. Why doesn't Radio Shack charge more for it?

Originally posted by Greg T

I've got 2 other friends that I setup with the $20 Radio Shack UHF antanne, it is just great at pulling in DTV stations. I get all of the stations (even KMGH) with this baby mounted to my chimney. Why doesn't Radio Shack charge more for it? [/B]

Well cuz in general, it's just another antenna. On the other hand, if *everybody* could get KMGH with it, then I'm guessing they could tack another zero on to the price. ;)

Originally posted by JackinThornton
Mark,

My 921 doesn't tune 4.1 but my internal tuner in my Sony Widescreen does. Is it just software in the 921, or is the Digital HD tuner in the 921 that sensitive?

Thx!

Have you tried manually adding channel 35 with the Add DTV option? What is your signal strength, and does it save it to your OTA channel list?

Hey Mark,

I giggle every time I read your sig. "18 months from July, 2003 for full-power HDTV!!!"

Let's see, that would be Jan, 2005. Hmmmmm... Ain't Gonna' Happen!

Let's see, that would be Jan, 2005. Hmmmmm... Ain't Gonna' Happen!

I still don't know, Ernie. Mark could be right on. It will be interesting to see who wins the project schedule prediction contest. I still think I have a chance at Nov. 2005. I'm relying on the flange being on backorder and the Deb thing dragging on for a bit.

Don

It also depends on the stations' commitment to full-power HD.

KUSA is spending money on a HD traffic copter and is doing local news in HD. I'd assume they want more people to be able to see that, although they could be counting on Comcast's coverage.

KMGH obviously couldn't care less about HD.

KCNC generally has been forward-thinking when it comes to HD, so I suspect they'll be pushing the tower, but like KUSA, they're carried on Comcast, so they might not care about the OTA folks any more. OTA customers are typically the less-affluent who won't be converting to HD anytime soon. The more affluent HD customers mostly have rooftop antennas and can already get KCNC-DT OTA.

KTVD doesn't have an HD signal now, and UPN is finally providing HD programming, so they're probably most eager to get the tower built.

They can be as aggressive as they want. But, they have to wait for the all the lawsuits to finish. So, they haven't broken any ground yet. Jan is 10 months away.

There's a lot of work involved. Blasting rock to prepare the site, build the building, the tower, cordinate installation with all the other tenants etc. My vote was for 4/1/05, and I don't think I'll win the Igoo Cooler prize either.

I'm not trying to be a downer, just realistic.

Originally posted by markdl
Have you tried manually adding channel 35 with the Add DTV option? What is your signal strength, and does it save it to your OTA channel list?
Yip tried both scan DTV and manually adding. It does add the station, but it divides the screen in 6 equal sections, and it's VERY bitmappy with no sound. (Almost like there is a bunch of snow on my dish). My signal strength is abouy 70 on 4.1. The only OTA channel my 921 tunes reliably is KUSA. My Sony internal tuner tunes everything but KMGH (which I still do not believe actually has DTV)

Last night, my wife and guests were watching The Guardian on CBS. I walked through the room and noticed they were transmitting an SD 4:3 picture. Of course, she never said anything to me about it. To make a point, I called the KCNC news line and asked them to tell engineering to flip the HD switch. The guy actually transferred me to engineering. Whomever answered the phone said that CBS had not sent the program in HD and they only record what they are sent. We both agreed that once you watch programming in HD, you don't really want to watch anything else.

Despite what the guy told me, in about three minutes, the HD transmission was turned on. Guess they really DID record the show in HD. The good news was that our guests immediately noticed the difference and commented how good HD looks compared to SD.

Originally posted by santellavision
Hey Mark,

I giggle every time I read your sig. "18 months from July, 2003 for full-power HDTV!!!"

Let's see, that would be Jan, 2005. Hmmmmm... Ain't Gonna' Happen!

Yeah, well I'm still trying to be optimistic Ernie, although I have thought about changing that from time to time.

Jack - you should be able to get a lock at SS of 70 on the 921, but it's starting to get to the level that it'll be a little iffy. I get a good lock at about 75 to KMGH, but really don't know what the cutoff line is. If you can, I'd try tweaking your antenna just a little bit to see if it helps or not.

And, with this post, I've hit a bit of a milestone here at AVS. 1000 posts. This is the area that I started in, so I think it's appropriate that my 1000th post is made in this thread.

This thread is the reason I joined AVS what seems like a very very long time ago. And you old-timers around here are really what kept me coming back in the beginning, even before I had an HDTV setup. Taking a look back, and realizing how much we've gone through actually is kind of amazing. And of course, I also find it amazing how far we still have to go. I wonder if 2 years from now this thread will be dead and we will have all drifted apart because we're spending all of our time actually watching HD rather than just talking about it. That day for me will both be very happy and really kind of sad as well.

With everything that we've been though, going on all of the tours that we've been on, spending way too much time sitting in meeting room #1 at the Taj, I count a lot of you as friends. John, Geof, David, Dennis, Ron, Ernie, Mark, Phil, Tim, David and Pat from KCNC, Don and Dave from KWGN, Jeff, Leonard, and of course the LCG team of Marv, Fred and Pete, and the rest of you that I’ve met over the last couple of years. We’ve had some incredibly frustrating times together, but we’ve also had some very good times. That first get together at KCNC and the first HDNet tour that John put together especially come to mind. I just hope that once we’re all sitting in our living rooms, dens, basements, and home theaters watching the damn signals that we’ve all fought so long and hard for that we don’t all just drift back into the mist. Of course, that may still be years away with all of the inevitable problems that will have to be worked out when the tower goes online, when KTVD goes live digitally, and if and when KMGH actually gets rid of all of their first generation equipment and upgrades to something that can actually put out a decent quality signal…But I digress.

I’d just like to take this opportunity to say Thanks Guys! Experiencing the frustrations has been a hell of a lot better with you guys, than it would have been alone. Thanks for the expertise and advice provided by all of you.

Over the last couple of years, I’ve gone from timeshifting analog television with 3 vcrs to timeshifting HD television with 3 computers now holding more than a terabyte of storage space (and yeah, that’s still only about 128 hours of recording space!). I’ve gone from watching on a 27 inch square tv with a lousy picture to watching on a 51” tv with an incredible picture. And, all in all, I’ve had a lot of fun doing it.

So, here’s to at least a few more years of good times together! :)

Well said, Mark - and Happy 1000 posts!
;)

Congrats on your YAMM, Mark.

I think I'll copy that post and save it for when I hit 1000 :)

Congratulations Mark on the 1000 milestone. Your posts have always been among the best here in the thread. Many of us 'old timers' have stayed in the thread even through the frustration because of great posts from people like you.
:)

(I am still amazed and appreciative of the time you invested taking notes and reporting from the "Taj" for all of us.)

Yes it has been interesting and fun over the years, as well as frustrating. BTW, for historical purposes, I think the first AVS get together was actually the one at KRMA with James Morgese and the crew unless my "oldtzimers" is acting up again.

I just wonder how many in this thread will have reached that milestone before we have any full power HD to watch in Denver. In the meantime, I recommend we continue with impromtu get togethers for the heck of it. I am sure we can convince at least one station each year, if not HDNet too, to let us gather an view their stuff. Maybe someday we can even 'make nice' with the station "Leading the way in HD", and even with the station with the "coat hanger anternna". As MLK said, "I have a dream".

Originally posted by santellavision
They can be as aggressive as they want. But, they have to wait for the all the lawsuits to finish.

I don't think they have to wait for the lawsuits to be resolved, unless a judge thinks there is enough merit to the case to issue an injunction.

I certainly hope that we hear that they have broken ground in the next couple of months. It doesn't seem like anything has ever been on or ahead of schedule so far with this project.

--Mark (not yet close to 1000 posts, but I've been here since the start, so I claim "old timer" status :))

Originally posted by JMartinko
BTW, for historical purposes, I think the first AVS get together was actually the one at KRMA with James Morgese and the crew unless my "oldtzimers" is acting up again.
Oh sure, jm, you have to go and poop all over Mark's 1000th post with nitpicking -- typical :D

(sorry, Ron)

Originally posted by bikenski
Tomorrow I’m going to attempt to locate a CM 7775 preamp (backordered almost everywhere) but I’ll take a Winegard AP4800 if I can’t locate the CM. Hopefully the extra kick will allow me to get KRMA and clear up the breakups on KUSA and KCNC (fingers crossed!)

Unfortunately the Winegard 4800 made things worse. I can't get the Republic channels at all with it in place, and if I view the Analog channels there are ghosts all over the place. Apparently there is too much noise and reflection in my Suburban location for a preamp to do any good.

On a brighter note I was finally able to find a place on my patio that I can receive KRMA from. Unfortunately in this particular spot I lose KCNC. I keep hoping to find the PERFECT spot where I can receive all 3 Republic signals, but it's looking less and less likely. It's truly amazing how just a few inches makes such a huge difference. Not helping matters any is the flaky signal strength meter on my Sammy 360, which is completely useless for trying to aim an antenna (bounces wildly between 0% and 75%, and everything in-between... even on strong channels.)

I'm off to Europe tomorrow, so I'll have some time to clear my head and formulate a new plan of attack. After viewing the garbage they show on TV over there for a few days I'll be sure to appreciate our limited HD programming even more!

howdy all and congrats mark

Does anyone have/ is there such a thing as a DTV signal meter that can be set up at my house to tell me if i have a chance at KMGH, my current set up gets just a sniff of it (0-11%)

or do i just go out and buy a huge UHF only antenna and screw around with for a while?

who sells/do yall recommend for "huge UHF only antennas" in denver?

and last but no least why am i all in a hurry to get ABC??? is there any reason (great show / superbowl / half time show ), i was thinking that i want it just in case but now I'm not so sure.

chuck
current set up antenna in attic, MYHD 120, HTPC

bikenski - hang in there...most of us have gone through exactly what you're currently facing. Some succeed, some don't unfortunately.

David - YAMM? That's a new one for me.

John - yeah, I know the KRMA tour was the first one, but it doesn't stick out in my mind as much as the next two at KCNC and HDNet do. And thanks for the compliments. I didn't mind at all doing the summaries for the meetings I went to for you guys.

Originally posted by markdl
David - YAMM? That's a new one for me.
Yet Another Meaningless Milestone. Picked it up over at tivocommunity.com.

Chuck - I don't know where in Denver you are, but I have a Channel Master 3023 antenna in its box "a huge uhf only antenna" that you would be welcome to borrow to try out. It's a 7' long yagi style antenna.

Mark,

Congratulations on your 1000th post on this forum and all the work you do over at DBS Talk. I wish I had 1/4 of your energy.

I hope Dish is paying you big bucks for all the beta work on the 921. :D
I am willing to bet you have answered more questions on the 921 then all the CSR's at Dish have.

I am still waiting for your appearance on the Dish Network Tech Chat.

You truly are a Survivor. :D

Chuck: The 3023 CM antenna is exactly what I use. It is on a 10 foot mast on my house. I worked pretty long and hard to find the sweet spot that would pick up 17 with a strong enough signal. The rest of the stations did not even matter -- they all came in fine with the antenna about anywhere and without the mast. Thanks KMGH! I also tried a CM 7775 amplifier, but it made things much worse. The feedback I got from others on the forum is that the many strong UHF signals (Fox 31 for example) overpower the amplifier making everything worse. Don't know if everybody has had the same results. Good luck.

And congrats Mark. I have also enjoyed getting into this whole HD 'hobby experience' much more than I would have thought, mainly from interactions on this forum.

My best acronym discovery was to learn what FOTFLMAO meant!

I forgot... Congrats Mark!

ESO is one that I hear once in a while too. "Equipment Superior to Operator"

(edit) oops.. my bad!

Ernie,

Wouldn't that be ESO??
;)

Originally posted by mbuchana
I don't think they have to wait for the lawsuits to be resolved, unless a judge thinks there is enough merit to the case to issue an injunction.

I certainly hope that we hear that they have broken ground in the next couple of months. It doesn't seem like anything has ever been on or ahead of schedule so far with this project.

--Mark (not yet close to 1000 posts, but I've been here since the start, so I claim "old timer" status :)) As I recall you started this thread....so we all got to "know" one another due to your brilliance and foresight...

------

Congrats on 1000 Mark. Many of my 2900+ posts were in the continuing saga of this thread.....most of my rants weren't nearly as insightful as yours though.

Oh, and BTW, you too are now an "Old Timer" ;) :p

Yup, definitely an old-timer now! :D I figure about 700 of my posts or so have been in this thread, with most of the rest of them in the HTPC forum...which makes sense as I have 2.5 of them set up and running now. (2 hipix cards and 1TB of storage for HD recording).

I don't rant nearly as much as you do, Geof :) but I don't have to deal with the hogback screwing everything up for me either. Insightful? I guess it's a matter of opinion there...:D

Phil, thanks! I do try...definitely have a lot on my plate at the moment...(and I really wish Dish was paying me big bucks for the work...) Although Dave Kummer did tell me "next time!". so we'll see what happens. Survivor...that's funny...got week 5 of the contest ending tonight - you have cast your votes, haven't you? I'd really love to give the HDTivo to you Phil!

Originally posted by santellavision
No word yet on KMGH, but you might be getting KWGN soon on Comcast.

So have enough people taken your advice from the DTV site and contacted Comcast? That site shows a late-2004 date for KWGN on Comcast. That's not real soon according to my impatient definition.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Oh sure, jm, you have to go and poop all over Mark's 1000th post with nitpicking -- typical :D

(sorry, Ron)

Ouch! I'm wounded!
:D

Yes Mark, you certainly have joined the ranks of the 'old timers', I also think that mbuchana gets status as an 'old timer' regardless of the number of posts since he was the one who started the darn thread.

Now, with all that settled, can someone explain to me what the "H" is the honor in being an 'old timer"? Seems to me its just a indication of the level of futility and frustration.
:rolleyes:

For those of us crazy enough to be here for 4 + years on this same subject, I guess we are more likely stupid than truly honorable.

Or maybe just masochistic. :)

Jeff

Ain't that the truth...

Sigh...fallen to page 4 in just over 24 hours...how sad.

Certainly don't want our little thread to get lost in the shuffle.

Originally posted by markdl
Sigh...fallen to page 4 in just over 24 hours...how sad.

Certainly don't want our little thread to get lost in the shuffle.

For those of you who don't know this, there is a "Subscribe to this thread" button at the bottom of each page. Then you can just go to "User CP" at the top of the screen next time you come back, and you can see which of your subscribed threads have new posts.

Most of you old timers (I don't think I fit in this category, even though I've been reading this thread for 2 years and attended both HDNet tours, I only got my HDTV in September) probably know this, but thought I would share with some of the "young uns".

Eric

Originally posted by markdl
Sigh...fallen to page 4 in just over 24 hours...how sad.

Certainly don't want our little thread to get lost in the shuffle.

Mark
It is kind of odd how things are going in slow spurts here lately. Of course we can encourage people (especially newbies and lurkers) to introduce themselves and discuss their set-ups. We could consider advertising in the papers for new members until tower construction starts and there is more to talk about. Any other ideas to stimulate discussion???? Anyone??

My suggestion is that we could open up the thread to include discussion of the "witch hunt", oops, I mean "investigation" into the CU football program?? Of course politics 'has nothing to do with it' so it is a safe topic on the AVS forum. Apparently some people up here in town seem to think if we eliminate the football team there will be no more parties, drinking or sex on campus. Then the students would have more time to spend watching HD.
:D

Originally posted by JMartinko
Mark


My suggestion is that we could open up the thread to include discussion of the "witch hunt", oops, I mean "investigation" into the CU football program?? Of course politics 'has nothing to do with it' so it is a safe topic on the AVS forum. Apparently some people up here in town seem to think if we eliminate the football team there will be no more parties, drinking or sex on campus. Then the students would have more time to spend watching HD.
:D

Witch hunt indeed, lets burn em at the stake. :rolleyes: Have to wonder where this will end and when will the press be happy. Sure wish some other stations would start broadcasting there news in HD. The smarmy attitude with 9news this morning was nauseating.


BTW - just wanted to thank you guys for the great info found here, found this forum when looking for info for purchase of my HD tv

Have to wonder where this will end and when will the press be happy.

IMO, this story has been way out of bounds as far as the media goes. This is non-fact based sensationalism at its worst when words such as "snowballing sex scandal" (KCNC, Sat. Feb. 28) are used. That is just irresponsible. I'm not an alumnus or connected to C.U. in any way; I have kids going to CSU & Metro State. I have never been a fan of C.U., but if the coach is vindicated which I expect, I will be the biggest Barnett fan around.

All of the news organizations in town share in the guilt in sensationalizing this story and connecting the personal problems of a few with the football program as a whole.

Please, just the facts maa'm.

Don

The facts at the moment are...

Either he is a complete, blithering idiot (calling her a horrible player) and for not knowing anything going on around him by using Sgt. Shultz defense "I know n-o-t-h-i-n-g" or he lying through his teeth. Either way, it's a 'no-win' for him.

Originally posted by santellavision
The facts at the moment are...

Either he is a complete, blithering idiot (calling her a horrible player) and for not knowing anything going on around him by using Sgt. Shultz defense "I know n-o-t-h-i-n-g" or he lying through his teeth. Either way, it's a 'no-win' for him.

Actually the response about her football abilities came as an answer to a question from the press which was something to the effect "What kind of player was Katie and why might the players have hated her so much?" Of course Gary likely should have refused to answer the question, but then he would likely have been accused of a cover up, or that he was hiding things from the press.
For a COMPLETE audio copy of the Gary Barnett media event in which he discussed Katie you can use your computer to hear it (from 9news) at the following URL. Note he is responding to the question from the reporter. Stay tuned through the whole thing to hear him answer the question whether her playing abilities justified any players actions toward her. Rather than 'guess' his opinion, it is possible to actually hear him state it.
Coach Barnett press conference (http://www.9news.com/includes/buildasx.aspx?fn=2--17-barnett-hnida.wmv&sp=http://bc1.liquidviewer.com/9newskusa/dotcom.wmv)

As for his keeping a 24 hour watch on 100 football players, as a single parent of a 17 year old teen, I can only imagine the problems in keeping up with 99 or so more. Of course I always know where my son is, or at least where he says he is. Now if he is anything like his dad was at that age, I would bet at least 60% of the time he is telling me the truth. As with most kids, at some point you have to 'take their word for it' and trust they will do the right thing. When you have 100 or so to watch the odds go up there may be a 'bad apple' in the crowd.

"The facts at the moment are..." as you say, that no formal charges of any rape have been brought against any football player involved in any of the accusations now being discussed in the press, and the one player 'accused' of being involved in an assault on a girl after leaving a Boulder bar was cleared through the subsequent DNA testing. Of course 9News et. al. haven't gotten around to mentioning that part yet, although I'm sure they will mention it eventually, perhaps after sweeps weeks are done. In the case involving the three women who have filed the Title 9 suit against the University for the 2001 party, the only charges ever brought were to four players for 'felony contribution to the delinquency of a minor'. The girls also admitted in depositions that they also provided alcohol, but they were not charged. Three of the four players had their scholarships taken away and left the team, the fourth did not attend the party and was suspended for a time period by Gary. I would be willing to bet that similar scrutiny of any of the fraternities at CU would produce at least as many if not more incidents than those by football players.
For an interesting review of the "facts" in the story see
PR Blitz Rocks CU (http://www.longmontfyi.com/forms/commentary/recruitingscandal-b.asp?ID=299)

Just to admit my own bias, yes, I do know Gary and do know people in the athletic department, but more than that, I do not believe in having the trial 'after' the hanging has already taken place.

Hey, as for the discussion, at least the thread is NOT on page 4, although the topic of HD is more fun.

Back on the subject of HD, I just finished watching the Flyers and the Bruins in HD from one of my sources (if I told you how I would have to shoot you.... :rolleyes: ) and let me again add that there has never been a sport made for HD better than hockey. I sure wish the Kroenke network would announce they are going to do the Avs and Nuggets home games in HD, and also that they will make it available through sources other than just cable.
:rolleyes:

Sorry John!

No disrespect to you on your friend Coach B. I know there's not been a trial yet. And yes, he is innocent 'til proven guilty. I guess my problem with all this, is that a person in a public/educational position should have handled it better.

Hindsight is always 20/20, I suspect he would agree with you at this point.

Just curious, was "Beverly Hills Cop" on KWGN last Saturday night in HD (I tuned in while it was in progress, so I didn't see if there was a banner at the beginning of the broadcast)? I ask because the PQ was as good as any of the HDNMV movies I've watched. The later movie that night on KWGN definitely wasn't in HD.

I don't have any affiliation w/ CU or any ties of any kind, and I love football, but Barnett acts like it is 1964 instead of 2004. Any senior manager in the company I work for would also have been severly penalized had he decided to expound to the press on the work performance of a female employee who just made sexual harrassment charges against the company. What an idiot! Just because he was asked the question doesn't mean he has to be dumb enough to answer it. Remember this guy is a leader at an institution of higher education. He comes off more as a "Bubba". Note I didn't mention the rape charge. K. H.'s sexual harrassment allegations were shocking and they were well within Barnett's responsibilities as the "manager" of the that organization. Not being aware of it wouldn't fly for you or I, if a female employee of ours charged SH within our work organization.

But the incompetence doesn't stop with Barnett. If the drinking and sex recruiting practices are even somewhat true, how could things like this go on w/o the AD's knowledge. If Barnett is canned, Platti should join him. And this mess has so far allowed Betsy Hoffman to demonstrate in public that she is a product of the Peter principle. Of course that isn't surprising since she apparently wasn't aware that she was running the #1 party school in the country, or maybe she was and didn't think that was a problem. After all, it might be good for student recruiting. There is a bad smell coming out of Boulder and it isn't going to go away until some thing change. Just my 2 cents!

Hi Guys, long time no post! Congrats (and thanks) Mark on the 1000th, you have definitely provided great service and information to us HD-starved Denverites.

I don't thiink I've even turned my PJ on for about a month (how sad is that) because I've been in training for "Ted". Nothing I like better than more work for less pay (sigh). Unfortunately it also effectively puts the lid on any equipment upgrades for the Lu-Max theater for some time, so looks like I will become more of a lurker than a poster. If you fly Ted out of Denver be sure to peak into the right seat and say "hi" if I happen to be there.

A mid-timer.

Hey folks, how about a great Oscar day salute to KMGH for providing the HD feed of the Oscars tonight to all the people that can cram into their parking lot tonight! It seems like they should win some kind of award for this, as I suspect that the Metro Denver area will be the largest metropolitan area in the country tonight NOT ABLE to view the awards in HD. Shouldn't they win some kind of award for this??? I recommend the infamous raspberry award! So, here's to you KMGH!

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttt
:cool:

I'm gonna give them raspberries in advance for all the NHL playoff games I'm gonna miss.

While I'm at it I might as well throw in another round for MNF this fall.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Hey folks, how about a great Oscar day salute to KMGH for providing the HD feed of the Oscars tonight to all the people that can cram into their parking lot tonight! It seems like they should win some kind of award for this, as I suspect that the Metro Denver area will be the largest metropolitan area in the country tonight NOT ABLE to view the awards in HD. Shouldn't they win some kind of award for this??? I recommend the infamous raspberry award! So, here's to you KMGH!

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttttttt
:cool: I'll just give them the finger.
Simple, yet effective.

Originally posted by Geof
I'll just give them the finger.
Simple, yet effective.

Can I safely assume that would be your 'middle' finger and NOT the one next to your right thumb?
:D

Originally posted by JMartinko
Can I safely assume that would be your 'middle' finger and NOT the one next to your right thumb?
:D Yes, you may safely assume that. :)

The good news (for me at least) is that the Oscars are in HDTV right now and the signal isn't jumping around (so my wife won't complain). The bad news is NO DOLBY DIGITAL 5.1! I am so sick of this crap! I only got an LD player when it was in DD. I would never buy/rent a DVD unless it was DD or DTS. When will it be a requirement to provide DD 5.1 in order to call your broadcast an HD broadcast.

-Matt

The Oscar's look pretty good, I'm recording it on DVHS if someone wants to borrow it. I don't think KMGH has ever passed a live Dolby Digital track. No DD for MNF either. When they record with their server it comes across saying 5.1 on my receiver, but the rear channel's aren't usually very active. I wonder if they compress the sound 2.


I thought this was 3 hours. I just had to switch in another tape. What up!

The sound from KMGH in 5.1 is always intermittent and poorly done. When they only pass DD 2 at least it is fairly consistent. I think those few of us who can actually get ABC and enjoy shows like the Oscars (which was done superbly) should be thankful. We are definitely in the minority.

One more time, KMGH should be ashamed of their pitiful signal no matter what their sound signal is transmitted at.

Tonight, our family thoroughly enjoyed the Oscars even in DD 2.0. It is sad that they will wait until the tower is built to pass along a reasonable signal for both sound and video for everybody else. Another year to wait for ABC is a long time.

Sorry to hear KMGH let you down with the 5.1. Why am I not surprised. I thought the sound was actually done quite well in 5.1. The audience noise was primarily behind the listener most of the night, but there were occasional sounds from back stage etc. in the front. Several times while the orchestra was playing between numbers you could hear the pitter patter of the feet of the people on stage moving around in the front sound field. All in all, it was pretty well done, and I felt MUCH MUCH better than the job CBS did on the Grammy's. Overall, I thought the production was well done. Also as a HUGE fan of the LOTR trilogy since I read the books back in the late 60's I was thrilled to see the clean sweep by PJ and the crew. Now to sit back and wait for the ROTK EE version to see what we missed in the theater, and also to finally be able to put it all together.

Also, for LOTR fans here, I just finished watching the post Oscars press conference on a backhaul and PJ was asked about doing "The Hobbit" after he does King Kong. He specifically said he wants to do it and he feels the two companies with production and distribution rights (sorry I forget who they are at the moment) have 2 years for the lawyers to work out the issues. He said he really wants to do it ASAP so he can use Ian M. as Gandalf and use the Production skills from the LOTR so The Hobbit can become a part of the trilogy as it should be.

Then wouldn't Ian Holm then have to be replaced as Bilbo for his "younger" flashback sequence in The Fellowship. He'll be really, really old looking once they get around to filming The Hobbit unless they use gobs of makeup!

It wouldn't be the same without Ian Holm.

Dan

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Then wouldn't Ian Holm then have to be replaced as Bilbo for his "younger" flashback sequence in The Fellowship. He'll be really, really old looking once they get around to filming The Hobbit unless they use gobs of makeup!

It wouldn't be the same without Ian Holm.

Dan
Bilbo was not mentioned, but from what I have read on the Internet you are correct, he would likely be replaced by someone younger to avoid having the makeup globs fall off, although Ian could be used as a narrator to start and end the story line. I would feel certain they would use Andy to reprise the role of Gollum.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Bilbo was not mentioned, but from what I have read on the Internet you are correct, he would likely be replaced by someone younger to avoid having the makeup globs fall off, although Ian could be used as a narrator to start and end the story line. I would feel certain they would use Andy to reprise the role of Gollum.


The "troop" does go through Rivendell, and they "visit" Legolas' father. Hugo and Orlando could possibly be used, and maybe a couple of other "bit" parts (Sauraman, etc). Sooner would be better, but rebuilding the Shire and Rivendell could be a little difficult at this time (since there is only 1 more movie to absorb all of the costs). Sure would be nice tho.

Thanks again to KMGH for that rock-steady, powerful signal I got. Of course it was analog SD on channel 7, not HD on 17 :mad: .

Originally posted by gkanders
...........
Thanks again to KMGH for that rock-steady, powerful signal I got. Of course it was analog SD on channel 7, not HD on 17 :mad: .
Yeh, a "rock steady" zero on the HD signal meter here too. It never moves. Thankfully I have other 'sources' for ABC HD.
KMGH, gotta love their spunk, much like Geof, I think they are showing us the 'one finger salute' as well..
:mad:

At times, it feels like they are giving us both hand's worth.

Jeff

Wow. Down to page 4 again. I guess the only news is the continuing issues with KMGH. Last night, there was no HD. Called the station and the excuse was that it was a national ABC problem (again). Whatever!

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Wow. Down to page 4 again. I guess the only news is the continuing issues with KMGH. Last night, there was no HD. Called the station and the excuse was that it was a national ABC problem (again). Whatever!

Watched most of the evening ABC comedies on an 'east coast source' and only saw a brief breakup in "Simple Rules" that was reasonably short. All were in HD, with the news cut-in's for the Super Tuesday vote updates which were upconverts, so if they were recording the east coast feeds they had no excuse that I saw. Maybe they just 'don't want to be bothered' filling in the short commercial time or replacing the time slots for the news updates, but frankly I only remember one update in the two hours, so I don't know why they couldn't do that. Probably just lazy and don't care about their viewers, although that is sooooo out of character for KMGH.....(is that one finger in one hand or one finger in each of two hands they are flashing??????)

FWIW, I just got the following email from Rick Craddock. I did not email him so I must be on some list. Did he send anybody else an email? Maybe it was caller id!


Thanks for your interest in Denver's 7, KMGH - TV/DT. Last night we
were not able to take the HD feed from ABC because of the "Super
Tuesday" coverage that was interspersed with programming last night.

If I may be of further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.

Rick Craddock
Director of Engineering
Denver's 7, KMGH - TV/DT

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
FWIW, I just got the following email from Rick Craddock. I did not email him so I must be on some list. Did he send anybody else an email? Maybe it was caller id!

Either that or maybe they are reading the thread and reacted to my post? Just in case he is reading here:

Hey Rick, if you are reading this, how about admitting that the Lookout Tower won't be up by this fall and moving that 'coat hanger' over to the Republic Building and turning up the power. Heck channel 4 did, channel 6 did, and even channel 9 did, and they also bought some HD cameras for the studio too. Now I don't mean to come down on engineering, since I know it is not your call without the appropriate budge. Maybe you guys can spend some time to figure out a cheaper (less than the $400 K your lawyers claimed) to get this done. That's among the things engineers do, that is find a cheaper way to do things. So how about passing our displeasure up the chain to the people that DO make the call, and maybe finding a cheaper way to do the move. Maybe some of us here can help brainstorm. There just is no excuse for a city the size of Denver not to have ABC HD available to at least 50-75% of the population (MNF, etc.) for another year or two. We all KNOW FOR A FACT that the Lookout Tower 'ain't gettin done' when your lawyers claimed.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Either that or maybe they are reading the thread and reacted to my post? Just in case he is reading here:

Hey Rick, if you are reading this, how about admitting that the Lookout Tower won't be up by this fall and moving that 'coat hanger' over to the Republic Building and turning up the power. Heck channel 4 did, channel 6 did, and even channel 9 did, and they also bought some HD cameras for the studio too. Now I don't mean to come down on engineering, since I know it is not your call without the appropriate budge. Maybe you guys can spend some time to figure out a cheaper (less than the $600 K your lawyers claimed) to get this done. That's among the things engineers do, that is find a cheaper way to do things. So how about passing our displeasure up the chain to the people that DO make the call, and maybe finding a cheaper way to do the move. Maybe some of us here can help brainstorm. There just is no excuse for a city the size of Denver not to have ABC HD available to at least 50-75% of the population (MNF, etc.) for another year or two. We all KNOW FOR A FACT that the Lookout Tower 'ain't gettin done' when your lawyers claimed.

Well Put! And add on to that, that a lot of our homes no longer tune to their channel anymore since we have had HD! SO KMGH IS LOSING VIEWERS which equals $$$! The only reason we tune to KMGH is for MNF now (during football season). Colorado DOES have citizens that live north of downtown believe it or not. You don't have to live in Highlands Ranch in order to afford an HD Television set! We no longer watch your news, or your sitcoms etc.

One minor correction...it was $400K, not $600K.

Originally posted by JackinThornton
Well Put! And add on to that, that a lot of our homes no longer tune to their channel anymore since we have had HD! SO KMGH IS LOSING VIEWERS which equals $$$! The only reason we tune to KMGH is for MNF now (during football season). Colorado DOES have citizens that live north of downtown believe it or not. You don't have to live in Highlands Ranch in order to afford an HD Television set! We no longer watch your news, or your sitcoms etc.

I hate to say this but the 'loss of viewers' argument isn't going to work. The percentage of households with HDTV capability (OTA and cable) in the Denver market today is so vanishingly small, I doubt they'd even notice a blip in their ratings if we all never ever watched KMGH again.

I think the only argument that has a chance to get KMGH off their current position is to somehow make them realize how far behind they are in deploying this technology compared to the other stations in Denver. That should at least get them thinking about providing a feed to Comcast, and might even get them to reconsider their OTA position.

Other than that, I can't think of any good (business) reason for KMGH to budge from their current stance. Just not enough of a market for it --- yet.

What's a KMGH? It's been out of my "Channel I Receive" for a while now.

(OK, I'll admit that I watched "Super Millionaire" -- but that's IT, I swear!)

Originally posted by JMartinko
....Maybe they just 'don't want to be bothered' filling in the short commercial time or replacing the time slots for the news updates, but frankly I only remember one update in the two hours, so I don't know why they couldn't do that. Probably just lazy and don't care about their viewers, although that is sooooo out of character for KMGH.....(is that one finger in one hand or one finger in each of two hands they are flashing??????)

Is it OK to quote yourself here??:rolleyes: "...........Probably just lazy and don't care about their viewers"

The bottom line really is that they don't really care about HD viewers, they are just trying to keep the FCC off their backs since they were supposed to be on the air several years ago (and they more or less came close to that timetable with their coathanger setup). You can rest assured that even if it takes three more years to get the transmitter on Lookout up and running they will not make any effort to change what they have unless the FCC gets involved. Our earlier letter writing campaigns proved that 'ain't gonna happen'. After all it would cost $400K (sorry Geof, I didn't remember the correct number, but I did correct my post), so they claim, to get on the air. Do they care if you can't see it??? No. They are obiously quite satisfied to be a second rate station. (Again no disrespect to their engineering group, it is not their call).

Originally posted by JMartinko
The bottom line really is that they don't really care about HD viewers, they are just trying to keep the FCC off their backs since they were supposed to be on the air several years ago (and they more or less came close to that timetable with their coathanger setup). You can rest assured that even if it takes three more years to get the transmitter on Lookout up and running they will not make any effort to change what they have unless the FCC gets involved. Our earlier letter writing campaigns proved that 'ain't gonna happen'. After all it would cost $400K (sorry Geof, I didn't remember the correct number, but I did correct my post), so they claim, to get on the air. Do they care if you can't see it??? No. They are obiously quite satisfied to be a second rate station. (Again no disrespect to their engineering group, it is not their call).
Not that I like it, but from a business standpoint I can understand their slow-rolling the FCC on OTA transmission. What I don't understand is why they haven't made an agreement for carriage with Comcast. Anyone know what they are holding out for?

Originally posted by oxothuk
Not that I like it, but from a business standpoint I can understand their slow-rolling the FCC on OTA transmission. What I don't understand is why they haven't made an agreement for carriage with Comcast. Anyone know what they are holding out for?

I can only speculate, maybe someone else here knows some 'inside' stuff. My own thought is that they may be dragging their feet since their appearance on Comcast would undoubtedly mean Comcast would start advertising KMGH HD on their service. Maybe they would be embarrased if the adds read "KMGH HD, not available for free over the airwaves, but we have it on Comcast" or "KMGH, ONLY available through cable." Those adds would also likely start a barrage of phone calls to the station asking where the OTA signal was. More embarrassment for the station when they start talking about their coathanger on the roof.

Besides, since KMGH is a McGraw Hill owned station, maybe this all is just McGraw Hill telling us all to start reading books. When you think about it, maybe that is a public service.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by JMartinko
We all KNOW FOR A FACT that the Lookout Tower 'ain't gettin done' when your lawyers claimed. Since the claimed it would be by Spring 2003! They've been claiming it's at most one year away for the past five years!

Originally posted by RonAuger
Since the claimed it would be by Spring 2003! They've been claiming it's at most one year away for the past five years!
"The tower will be ready within a year" is now ranking in the same category of all time one liners as "The check is in the mail".

BTW, did anyone else catch the "Concert For George" on KRMA last night?? It was in HD and 5.1 and nicely done. I only saw the last half as I was at the Avs game and didn't get home until 11PM. Just wondering if the first half was as good as the part I saw. I don't have the DVD, so I haven't seen the concert before. Was this the same show that is on the DVD?

John:

There was a thread in the programming forum on this show that said it is the same as the DVD only the quality is much better. We watched this when it aired at 7 PM. It is from a 2002 performance honoring George.

For those of you who want to check it out, it is on again on Sunday at 7 and 10 PM and then again on the 9th at 6 and 9 PM. It is well worth the time.

The first half of the concert had a bit more voice overs with people talking about George but was well done. Eric Clapton was the leader of the whole show and did a great job.

Dennis
Thanks for the information, I will have to try to catch one of the 'replays' later in the week. It looked and sounded pretty great.

PS
Sure glad it wasn't on KMGH, or no one would have seen it.

One of KMGH's control room guys told me that McGrawhill owns 3 stations in Comcast areas. They are trying to negotiate one carriage agreement that will cover all three stations.

http://www.mcgrawhill.com/markets/info_media.html

Looks like two of these stations are on Cox and two are on Comcast.

The frustrating thread of the Indy people that want ABC on Comcast. Sound familiar? The Two Cali stations are up in HD on Cox.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245439&perpage=20&highlight=wrtv&pagenumber=3

I saw the George tribute. The HD was perfect and the sound was very good as well. It was also nice to watch a concert on PBS that was NOT a Soundstage production with the camera angles changing every nanosecond. I can't watch soundstage for this reason. If you have the time, I highly recommend catching the other showings of the Harrison tribute.

I sent an email to the Manager of KMGH from its web a month ago, here is what I got:

"Our parent company is working with Comcast corporate offices in
Philadelphia to work out a deal. I have no idea when that might be
finalized. I have been working with the local people at Comcast to see
what we can do from the local front to get the deal done.
Thanks for you patience."

Martha's Guilty!

So, I guess we won't be seeing her TV show 'Martha Stewart Living in Levenworth' in High-Def anytime soon. ;)

Martha convicted? This must be a first in the American system. She now stands convicted of trying to cover an insider trading crime even though she was never charged for the crime itself. Can't figure out how you can be convicted for not admitting to a crime which no one says you committed, maybe someone will explain it to her while she is in jail. What ever happened to the Fifth Ammendment?
:confused:

When in Rome, putting up a lot of antennas seems to be the thing to do! I just returned from a trip over there, and couldn't believe how many antennas are on the roof of just about every building. It appears that each unit in a building has its own individual antenna, rather than sharing a communal one. Unfortunately I didn't spot any exotic Italian antenna design that could be used to solve our reception woes here in Denver - they all appeared quite conventional.

Maybe KMGH has a sister station in Rome :(

Originally posted by bikenski
When in Rome, putting up a lot of antennas seems to be the thing to do! I just returned from a trip over there, and couldn't believe how many antennas are on the roof of just about every building. It appears that each unit in a building has its own individual antenna, rather than sharing a communal one............................

Obviously those folks haven't discovered the joys that come with HOA's. Maybe 'Italian Bosses' don't approve of HOA's unless they can run them.
:D

Can't say as I was very impressed with the concert for George on KRMA-DT. Rather boring and not particularly creative.

However, I dropped in on concert by a Japanese artist on KRMA-DT last week that was awesome. The instruments ranged from medieval to ultra-modern, the music was haunting, and the HD video show was a treat.

I think KRMA-DT also scored w/ the 2 HDTV shows on Iraq. Both the medical review and the technology review were great HDTV viewing and very informative. A good week for OTA HDTV.

This place [attached pic] I saw in Rome has a couple of exotic antennae on the roof... I wonder if they can pull in KMGH with those... :) :) :)

Question for Denver-area DirecTV subscribers who were required to obtain at least one waiver in order to access CBS-HD on CH 81....

After I finally got a hold of a supervisor who was able to actually flip the switch to turn on CBS-HD (after having gotten the waiver approved over a week prior by KKTV, and several unsuccessful calls to lesser-empowered CSR's), I was told that I'd have to pay extra every month for said distant-network programming ($1.50 for either WCBS or KCBS, or $2.25 for both). I was under the impression (apparently wrongly so) that if I was a local-channel subscriber and an HD-Package subscriber, that CBS-HD was included in the price if I were able to receive it. He said no, since I was not automatically eligible (i.e. had to get a waiver) that I did not fall into the "included" category, so I would have to pay. Those for whom the service was automatically added were exempt. The DirecTV web site is inconclusive or at least rather vague on this issue - has anyone else run into this minor annoyance?

Not that it's not worth the cost, at least until the Lookout Mtn. tower is up and running, but it's never fun to get nickel-and-dimed when you least expect it. And it will add up if ABC and NBC are done the same way in the future. The silver lining is that I didn't think I was able to get the NYC feed as well, but for 75 cents having that 3rd East Coast option when March Madness rolls around will be invaluable.

If the monthly charge is legit, then so be it... it is what it is. Does anybody have the real story, though? thx..

Welcome whatsupjay!!

In my case, I get KCBS from LA at no extra charge and getting WCBS from NY is not an option. When you talk to D*, you need to ask for the HD desk as they know what is really going on. I don't know of anybody in the Denver metro area that has anything different than what I described. Some of us had to get waivers from the CBS station in Cheyenne as well. Good luck.

I was told that I needed waivers from both KGWN and KKTV; so I called the stations, obtained them, and faxed them in. The same day I faxed them in I received a letter from DirecTV stating that KKTV had denied my request. I called to contest the letter and was then told "Oh, good news, you don't even need a waiver anymore - KKTV has issued a blanket waiver for all of the Denver area." Within minutes they activated CBS-West, and I just confirmed on my online statement that it's listed at $0.

You should NOT have to pay any extra for the CBS-West HD feed if you already subscribe to locals... But you should also not be getting CBS-East, so if you call to complain about the charges you may lose that feed.

Thanks for the replies; I'm sure now that my setup is probably the exception to what everyone else has. I shouldn't be charged for CH. 81 KCBS, but I also shouldn't have been given the option to pick up the NY feed on CH 80. One other question - when they turned on your CH. 81, did they also turn on CH. 381 (the non-HD feed for KCBS)? In my case, they enabled both 380 and 381 in addition to 80 and 81, which I guess is useful when I'm watching my non-HD tv set in the bedroom..

I have a friend in Loveland who said he was charged something like $2 by D* for KCBS because a waiver was required (from KGWN Cheyenne). I don't think he was offered a choice of WCBS instead.

Mark

Originally posted by whatsupjay
when they turned on your CH. 81, did they also turn on CH. 381 (the non-HD feed for KCBS)?

No, unfortunately they only turned on 81.

In my case, they enabled both 380 and 381 in addition to 80 and 81, which I guess is useful when I'm watching my non-HD tv set in the bedroom..

Distant non-HD network cost is $2. If you had 80, 380, 381 turned off and kept 81, the $2 charge would be removed.

Btw, has anyone watched the morning news on KCBS from 6-8 MST? That weather girl Lisa Joyner is really perky for that time of day. I'm impressed... or maybe she needs to switch to de-caff.

Don

I just finished watching the Charlie Chat on Dish. It looks like CBS-HD E&W are going down tonight on Dish. :(

Whatsupjay,
I'm also confirming you should not be charged for 81. I had to do the same thing; get a waiver from KKTV to get 81 turned on. You should not get 381 (or 80, 380) under this 'deal'. The analog distant networks are what the extra charge is for.

Oddly enough, at SB time when all this was coming down, I found analog Fox turned on (38?) and a $2 charge on my bill. D* didi the waiver thing for me and automatically turned DN Fox on when it was approved.

Sony Widescreen 57" HDTV=$2600.00
Pioneer Receiver with 7.1 Surround=$900.00
Dish Network DVR 921=$1200.00
Cables and accessories=$500.00

Finding out today that Dish Network has dropped all Viacom owned stations from my $120.00 a month bill (including Sponge Bob Square Pants), while offering me a whole $2.00 credit..........PRICELESS!!!!

I have been a loyal subscriber, and literally "converted" 15 or 20 households to them, and this is what I get in return. I see this argument much like the baseball strikes. All the millionaires fighting for my hard earned cash, and not thinking about the person actually giving them the $$$$.

Question is, how long will it take Congress or the courts to step in?

Just found out that the district judge has denied CARE's appeal of the Mt Morrison tower approval.

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi
Just found out that the district judge has denied CARE's appeal of the Mt Morrison tower approval.

-Wabisabi

Yahoo, yippie skippie!
:D :D :D :D

Now that means we are only about 2 years away from actual full power HD telecasts from KRMA????? At least it may set a precedent for the Lookout Tower suit.
:)

Thanks wabisabi -- always good to hear from you. Any rumblings on the LCG suit?

Awesome! Even though I can reliably get KRMA-DT at my place, I'll be happy to see their old ugly tower removed.

Originally posted by wabisabi
Just found out that the district judge has denied CARE's appeal of the Mt Morrison tower approval.

-Wabisabi Good news indeed. It's nice to know that JeffCo Courts aren't bamboozled by CARE rhetoric any more so than the Commissioners.

Wow - Great news!

I'll have to put it on the denverdtv.info website when I get back from the Arctic Circle. Just add this to my wild, wacky adventures. I'm up here at the Ekati Diamond Mine on a High-Def Documentary on Mining for Caterpillar.

I have nver been this cold in my entire life. It was -38 today with a wind chill of... get this, -61! And we were shooting outside all day.

Brrrrrrrrr!

Gee Ernie, sounds like summertime in Minnesota!

Originally posted by santellavision

I'll have to put it on the denverdtv.info website when I get back from the Arctic Circle. Just add this to my wild, wacky adventures. I'm up here at the Ekati Diamond Mine on a High-Def Documentary on Mining for Caterpillar.

I have nver been this cold in my entire life. It was -38 today with a wind chill of... get this, -61! And we were shooting outside all day.

Brrrrrrrrr!
Hey Ernie, are there any OTA HD channels up there, or is that the only other location in North America outside of Denver without full power HD OTA? It would be ironic if you could get ABC HD up there.
:D

BTW Ernie, just between you and me, I think you got it backwards, you go NORTH in the SUMMER :) and SOUTH in the WINTER :cool:. I am sure it is an easy mistake to make. Next time, just PM me and I can help you get it straight.
:)

You guys should see the Sat dishes up here. They are completely vertical. The asmuth (sp) is like 0!

Havin' a real bad time with our HD camera. If we shoot more than 4-5 min at a time outside in -38, the color shifts. The CCD chip does not like the that kind of cold. Hell, neither do I! ;)

Yeah, I was gonna ask you if you had electric blankets and really long extension cords... For the CAMERAS!

:)

Hey Ernie, FWIW it was about 72° here yesterday.

I have no clue where you are, but there are a lot of satellite ground stations (both Air Force and Commercial) up that way for tracking and receiving science data etc. from polar orbiting satellites. If you get a chance and are near one check it out. You will see some pretty 'cool' dish farms. Even nicer than the one in my back yard.

Oh yeh, did I mention it was 72 ° here yesterday. Just like summer!

Article in the Rocky Mountain News this morning:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_2720078,00.html

After reading this article, I would like to revise my Denver full power HDTV broadcast and tower completion estimation date for the contest to October 15, 2008.

Oh, gee... I wonder who REALLY wrote that article. Funny I missed the part about antenna consolidation and reduced RF for nearby residents - what a continuous stream of crock. And the mention of being well within the Fed's RF safety standards?? Maybe instead of the papers printing "ADVERTISEMENT" on articles that are ads, maybe they need to print "PROPAGANDA" on such misleading 'news' reporting. They sure have lost my readership over this. If they aspire to be the Rocky Mountain Tabloid - they are on the right track.

Edit: Even a cub reporter should be able to get to the bottom of this story and print what the reason would be for such statements - a reporter that just prints what is spoon-fed to him isn't worth the ink he used.

Yea, what the heck does that mean? Weren't they ready to break ground?

So, does that delay the towers till this review is complete (and changes resulting from it are implemented)?

Sheesh.....

Echostar is asking for approval to give national HD network feeds to those who have no local HD. Probably never happen (especially since we have the low power crap). But, BOY, if it did - that would sure get the local broadcasters scrambling. I'd love to see THAT !!!

I don't think this review will have any effect on the two towers (Mt. Morrison or LCG). Those are already approved.

That's one of the reasons Deb Carney is complaining that it is "too little, too late." To which we can say, "too bad."

Mark

From the sounds of that article, it looks like they're trying to figure out the ground rules for any future tower proposals. LCG and Morrison are done deals. (Well, LCG will be once the judge throws out the Golden lawsuit)

Originally posted by dr_mal
From the sounds of that article, it looks like they're trying to figure out the ground rules for any future tower proposals. LCG and Morrison are done deals. (Well, LCG will be once the judge throws out the Golden lawsuit)

From what I read, the fourth paragraph leads directly into the Golden lawsuit in stating that the Commishes were inadequately thorough, and giving the nod to a review of the regulations (or the result of those possibly incorrect regulations) opens the door to more litigation. I, for one, do not beleve that it's over until I see CBS, NBC, and ABC on my screen. The article was extremely vague on what the actual review will be about, but usually it is about things that happened in the past (as opposed to a hearing). But, as dr_mal states, it could be a simple review of regulations for future use, and I'm just being my paranoid self...Just my .02

Anybody else notice that DircTv turned on the CBS west feed?

I was to lazy to call and get all the waivers that were needed to get the channel but last night I noticed it had been turned on.

Pretty cool.

Later
Joe

Which one?

Channel #?

I had them turn on the HD feed when the bruhaha was going on for the superbowl.

I would also like the SD version activated for the other STB's, as I like the later showtimes from the west coast.

But I'm too cheap to want to pay them for it. :)

It is the CBS West feed, I think channel 82.

It has been available since the Super Bowl but I was too lazy to have get all the waivers necessary to get it turned on. I was thinking about doing for the NCAA tourney but now I don't have to mess with anything.

I guess good things come to those that wait :-)

Eh, I was hoping for channel 381. Oh well, can't have everything...

Thanks

Being a newcomer to the DTV world I figured it was my duty to add my name to the list of people unhappy with KMGH's signal, so I sent off a note to Darrell Brown. I basically repeated what everyone else here has been for years, and asked for the transmitter to be moved higher and for the signal to be carried on Comcast.

I know it won't do any good, but the more names they have of people no longer viewing their programming, the better.

CBS West HD is on channel 81 on D*.

It's been almost a year since I last contacted KMGH about their HD efforts or lack thereof. I retrieved all of the frustration, outrage and anger that I have had over the past couple of years and composed a reasonably polite and informed email to Mr. Brown. I also doubt that it will make a difference, but I feel better.
Thank you to KCNC, KRMA, KWGN and KUSA for making their HD broadcasts available to most Denver area residents.

Anybody hear anything new on the joint case by the city of Golden/CARE against their own JeffCo Commissioners?

Originally posted by santellavision
Anybody hear anything new on the joint case by the city of Golden/CARE against their own JeffCo Commissioners?

Not a peep!

Doubt we will here much, the stations are through using us now that the tower passed the commisioners. They don't need us anymore. I'ts almost as if they were just 'using us', but I can't imagine KUSA and KMGH doing that!!!
:mad:

BTW, Ernie, are you back in the 'warmer' climates now? I hope you brought some moisture with you, we could sure use some snow.

Yeah, I got back on Saturday. -38 is something that no one should have to experience! I even got to see the Sopranos last week up there. Isn't there a character on the show named Santa (The Blade) Claus? Maybe not... I might still have some brain-freezer-burn! ;)

I received a response from KMGH General Manager Darrell Brown which stated that he is new to the station and is also frustrated about the current HD situation. He said that his first priority is to get the HD signal on the Comcast cable system. In my email I mentioned the representation made by their attorneys that the tower would be completed by this spring or somtime very soon. Mr. Brown was unaware of this statement and agreed that it was impossible. I don't remember who received a copy of KMGH's response to the FCC regarding their lack of effort in providing an OTA signal in Denver, but it might be interesting to share that with Mr. Brown. I reached him through the feedback section on their website and he responded to me the next day.

Flipping through the channels I noticed that "Whoopi" on KUSA and "Gillmore Girls" on KWGN are supposed to be in HD, but they certainly look like SD to me. "Navy NCIS" on KCNC seems to be the only OTA show I can pick up that's actually being transmitted in HD.

Is anyone else getting SD feeds? Or am I just getting so used to HD that it doesn't look special anymore??

Gilmore Girls was a rerun from last year, before the show was produced in HD. I think it's in reruns for the next couple of weeks as well.

Whoopi? Can't help you there. KUSA usually isn't too bad about passing through the HD lately. Maybe there was some special event that took up all NBC's bandwidth so they couldn't do any HD tonight :rolleyes:

Frasier was not HD either, and I believe it should have been.

All,
I have a few question...
I currently have Dish with a 6000 unit. I am looking at going to the 921 with second generation hardware or to Comcast with HD content.

Few questions...
Which has better HD resolution and is not compressing?
Which locals does Comcast Denver have? When will ABC be on the list?
When will the PVR from Comcast be coming to Denver?
I have an OTA module in my 6000 today connected to my Mits 65 with no TV OTA integrated decoder.

I am also looking at adding a Samsung 50" 720P DLP TV but may wait for the newer version out later this year.

I want to be able to have one HD feed into the house via an HD decoder (6200, 921 or another) and have 2 HDTVs connected.

Since the 921 has two tuners this might be the better avenue. However the 6408 is coming sometime (when??). I can live with the Mits and not buy the other HDTV till the 6408 comes out if Comcast is a better way.

THOUGHTS?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Originally posted by kimbray
Few questions...
Which has better HD resolution and is not compressing?
Which locals does Comcast Denver have? When will ABC be on the list?
When will the PVR from Comcast be coming to Denver?
Comcast should theoretically have better HD resolution with less compression necessary.
IIRC, Comcast has KUSA, KCNC, KDVR, and KRMA in HD. ABC's parent company is in negotiations with Comcast at a corporate level for HD carriage of their stations. No ETA.
The Denver Comcast thread will have more details on Comcast HD. Strictly speaking, this thread is for OTA reception (but frequently strays off topic).
Originally posted by kimbray
Since the 921 has two tuners this might be the better avenue. However the 6408 is coming sometime (when??).
The 921 has two sat tuners but only one OTA tuner (where most HD conflicts will be happening). Any reason you aren't considering the upcoming HD DirecTiVo? It'll have dual sat and OTA tuners so you'll be able to record two programs at once regardless of whether they're sat or OTA.

I have looked at some on some of the links on HD content from DirectTV and have not thought hard about DirectTV. I beleive they compress HD content.

Originally posted by kimbray
I have looked at some on some of the links on HD content from DirectTV and have not thought hard about DirectTV. I beleive they compress HD content.
Fair enough. I believe Dish also compresses HD, so that would leave you at Comcast. With Dish or DirecTV, you'll at least be getting the locals (with an OTA antenna) uncompressed. No guarantees that Comcast won't compress the locals as well as national HD in the future.

Who'd've thunk a year ago that we'd have 3 choices for HD PVRs to consider? Times are good.

I went on the AVS group tour of HDNet. They had a separate monitor in their control room with DirecTV on it. They said that DirecTV alters their signal and they monitor quality. They said that DISH doesn't alter the signal so they don't monitor that.

Of course, they could have started compressing the signal since then or they may in the future.

Roy

By the way, did people see that Kroenke Sports Network will be called Altitude Sports and will carry some Colorado Springs Sky Socks games. It was reported in the Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph yesterday.

kimbray, unless you have some kind of new video distribution system, you won't be able to run to HD sets with the 921 simultaneously because the 921 (or the forthcoming HDTivo for that matter) can't output HD on both its DVI output and component outputs at the same time. It's one or the other.

royrose is correct. One of the fellas at HDNet told my that D* does NOT pass the full bitrate signal that they are sent while E* does broadcast the entire stream. Although that holds true for this one channel, not real proof of whether or not they 'filter' any of the other channels however.

I've got Comcast and DirecTV HD (interview process). HBO seems to be the main channel that DirecTV is always altering. I've yet to see a difference in quality between the Showtimes. DirecTV's HBO goes from looking great to really bad with lots of compression artifacts, while it remains pristine on Comcast. I hope DirecTV stop this practice before the DirecTivo HD comes out. Maybe they have to do this to fit all of the channels. Maybe when the new bird goes up they'll have the breathing room to pass it as it comes in. I bet DirecTV made sure the HD DirecTivo doesn't give us any statistical information about the recorded stream.

Originally posted by markdl
... can't output HD on both its DVI output and component outputs at the same time. It's one or the other. This seems to be SOP, for some reason. My Sony HD200 (albeit a single OTA and single D* tuner) is the same way. There's a back-panel switch for DVI or Component. However, it will output both DVI and RGB at the same time (I think -- I haven't tested)

Originally posted by Jetlag
royrose is correct. One of the fellas at HDNet told my that D* does NOT pass the full bitrate signal that they are sent while E* does broadcast the entire stream. Although that holds true for this one channel, not real proof of whether or not they 'filter' any of the other channels however. That's a problem I'd love to see the FCC tackle. With all carriers, sat and cable, you can't depend on what they are going to do channel-to-channel, day-to-day, and with stat-muxing, even millisecond-to-millisecond. I'd love to see more stringent regulation regarding HD transmission instead of subjective phrases like "without any picture degradation"

Good to know on the 921. I would not be watching the two different TVs at the same time on differnet channels, I just want to split HD content to two devices. I was looking at using a componet video cable AMP like the one below. I believe this will work. Any thoughts?

http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat_id=509&sku=41065

With regards to HD content and compression, I am inclined to stick with my Dish and upgrade to the 921 or go with Comcast (they should be getting the PVR unit soon) (Any ideas on timelines for Denver for the 6208????) Thanks.

What I would do (and actually am doing) is try out Comcast for awhile since all their HD channels are in free preview mode. You could keep nothing but the HD Pack from Dish for like 15.00 a month to keep getting the HDNets and Disc HD if you wanted them and then use Comcast for the rest. They have the previously mentioned Locals in HD plus HBO/SHO/Starz!/Cinemax in HD and the 2 InHD channels also (and ESPN HD but you'd still be getting that from Dish too). Plus you'd still have your OTA tuner on your 6000 as well.

That would give you 4 new HD channels to enjoy and give you a chance to try out Comcast in general while buying time to see how the PVR issue shakes out. Personally I wouldnt dream of dropping the better part of 1000.00 upfront for a PVR especially when there might be some lease options on them forthcoming from the likes of Comcast and perhaps Voom for example.

Humm,
I have the D* PVR pre-ordered but I am wondering more and more if I should really stick with D*. I have Comcast Internet and I have been very pleased with it's reliability - and they just recently doubled the speeds which is great (duh). Moving to Comcast should save me some money, enough so that losing the $100 non-refundable deposit for the D* PVR could be recouped in a few months (especially considering that D* rates are going up again next month).

What is the Comcast guide like (I trust they have a guide similar to D*)? Can anyone (Dan) make comparisons to the user friendliness of the Comcast STB to the D* boxes?

Comcast's slow, ugly, and ad-filled guide and the (at the time) lack of Dolby Digital support are what sent me running to D* as soon as I moved into a place with a South-facing view.

I know the new STBs being issued by Comcast now support DD 5.1, but have they improved upon the guide at all? Or is it still the "Push a button, wait for an ad to load... wait... Did the button push really take? Push the button again.. Then it jumps several screens all at once" routine?

Even if they still use the crappy guide I'll be subcribing to their lowest tier service + HDTV if they add KMGH before the tower is complete.

Geof -- I don't know if you have a TiVo now or not, but the only system that will have TiVo PVR software inside will be D*. For me, that's worth sticking with D* at any cost.

markdl -- I haven't been following the 921 threads since I preordered my HD DirecTiVo. Are you able to schedule recordings on an OTA HD channel now or do you still have to schedule the recording on the SD channel and then modify the channel to actually record on to the HD equivalent?

Thanks guys, your testimonials are hardly ringing endorsements.

David,
No Tivo yet but if I don't cancel my PVR order I should be getting one soon(er rather than later). Why is their SW so special that cost be damned?

I guess I am unhappy with the recent $2 increase then the soon to be $3 increase and (I know it's just me) but I'm not getting nearly any use out of the $10.99 HD package. I'd rather have Ciinemax HD and Starz! HD than the lame HdNet channels (which I rarely watch).

Oh I'm not getting squat out of the HD Pack either though I dont have much problem payin the dough just for the hell of it for the few times a month where all else fails and theres nothing else on I wanna watch. I had all but quit watching HDNet even when it was on the same STB as the rest of my programming. Now that it's on one I have to press a few buttons on the remote to view, I rarely bother.

I peruse my online guide that includes all those plus all the rest of the HD channels I get and nothing seems terribly compelling or it's something on Disc HD thats being shown for the kazillionth time. Course thats not to say that like the InHD channels, while I've really enjoyed some of that content I hadnt yet seen, doesnt do the same thing with repeats. But the diff is I've had HDNet and Disc since they respectively debuted 2+ years ago and the other two for 2 months.

I been waiting with bated breath for the Dish 921 for quite a while. And now i've read AND heard they have stopped production and will retool the 921 with new hardware. Mark may or may not be able to confirm this (as he has an inside relationship with them).

OK, who knows what's up with OTA PSIP? Why don't we have it on ANY channel yet? Is it just the stations being lazy not to provide it?

I think the re-engineering is just something to do with the component outputs (which is the blue line problem). I have never used the component since my tv has DVI. I have a 921, and LOVE it. My only gripe is I can tune ALL locals (minus KMGH) but have a weird pixelation problem with KCNC-DT. My internal Sony tuner in my TV tunes it fine, but the 921 just doesn't like it. I have a signal strength of 105% out of 125% possible. It tunes other channels no problem with a lesser signal strength. I just hope it's fixed before the start of the NFL season.

Originally posted by Geof
David,
No Tivo yet but if I don't cancel my PVR order I should be getting one soon(er rather than later). Why is their SW so special that cost be damned?
To be glib, because it works. I've had one for almost 4 years now, and I can count on one hand the number of times it's frozen up to the point of needing a reboot or the number of missed recordings. For any device with a computer and hard drive inside, I consider that to be remarkable.

There are good comparisons between TiVo and Replay/UltimateTV/Comcast's DVR at http://www.pvrcompare.com/

In terms of HD PVRs, there aren't many out there yet -- I expect pvrcompare to be updated once HD DirecTiVos ship and more information is known about the 921 and Comcast's HD PVR.

Originally posted by dr_mal,
To be glib, because it works. I've had one for almost 4 years now, and I can count on one hand the number of times it's frozen up to the point of needing a reboot or the number of missed recordings. For any device with a computer and hard drive inside, I consider that to be remarkable.
That's a pretty darn good reason allright. I'll cehck out the comparisons, thanks for the link.

I'm with Dr Mal,

While my wife likes HD and all, she would never let me switch providers unless the TIVO supported it. While on vacation, she refuses to watch anything on TV knowing she can watch when she gets home. Like Dr Mal, I have had one failure ever on the TIVO in 4 + years with two of the units in the house.

I also stopped reading the 921 threads after all the initial problems, so I don't know this answer for sure, but I believe that only TIVo can track changes in dates ( Season PAss ) if your program moves around the dial and such. That is worth it to me also to not have to think about it after I tell it to record something. The dates can change, the times can be "supersized", etc. Makes no matter, the TIVO finds it and does it correctly.

As several of you know, I purchased 169time's stuff to record to a JVC3000 and basically had no problems ( including KMGH ), but the manual process of making sure I had the blank tape in, make sure it's rewound, the JVC is on the proper I- number, etc. truly made me long for the TIVO for HD recording. Finally, my prayers will be answered in just two or three short weeks. HD on the HDDIRECTIVO ( via the power buy ).

Geof, I am confident that you will be very pleased, and if not I can always buy yours off you for the basement :)

Jeff

Originally posted by kimbray
Good to know on the 921. I would not be watching the two different TVs at the same time on differnet channels, I just want to split HD content to two devices. I was looking at using a componet video cable AMP like the one below. I believe this will work. Any thoughts?

http://www.cablestogo.com/product.asp?cat_id=509&sku=41065 I'm sure it'll work fine. I use Audio Authority's 985DTV (http://65.23.117.57/985dtvd.html) which cost a little more but it also takes Toslink and coax digital audio and distributes that via coax. Now my upstairs HDTV can use any component video and digital audio source from the rack in the theater (but that was a long thick coax snake to run!).

I, too, have preordered the unit. I am moving my Sony HD300 to an NTSC TV, switching the output to 480i, and backing it up with a 160 hour Replay.

If the TiVo is as good as the Replay, I will be very happy. The Replay is a wonderful machine; too bad there is no plans for a HD model.

David - yes, you can schedule OTA recordings with the 921, but they have to be done manually at this point because there's no OTA guide data yet. That's supposedly coming this summer.

Ernie - the hardware fix apparently has something to do with all of the video output ports, not just the component outs as Jack said. I don't know much more about that, although I'm supposed to be getting a "fixed" 921 sometime this week to test for them.

Jack - that's the first I've heard of a problem with KCNC with the 921. It comes in just fine for me on mine, and my SS is less than yours - I'm about 95 or so on KCNC according to the 921 signal meter.

Mark,

I think it's really strange also. Considering KCNC and KUSA are basically the same location (aiming the antenna) I thought it would be a no brainer. Maybe it's the neighbors pacemaker. :) I'll have to fire up the microwave to get his pacemaker to stop! ha ha

I'm not complaining, I thought you have your hands full enough with the DBS forums so I decided not to bother you, and my TV has a internal HD tuner, so it's no show stopper. I love my 921 and don't even feel bad about paying the little extra I did to get one early.

BTW, last weekend I went and bought a Rat Shack antenna (YAGI UHF Only) thinking maybe it was my omni-directional causing the problem, but the signal strength I get from my omni, beats the $23.00 Yagi hands down.

Thanks for the input!

Mark this date on your calender March 26th. This is a follow up to the question Ernie asked a few days ago. Yes it is regarding the law suit.

Anyone know if KCNC will be multicasting games this w/e?

<Dream Mode>
Also, anyone know how to get ahold of Altitude Sports (or Kroenke)? I'd like to "suggest" they lease, oh maybe 15.3 mbs of bandwidth from (maybe) KDEN (shopping network out of Longmont ch 25, DT 29) to simulcast a broadcast signal when they have an actual sporting event. I mean, KDEN certainly doesn't need more than 4 mbs to send the signal they are sending now, and I'm sure any $$ they'd get for sub-letting the space would be useful to them. I figure a 15.3 mbs 720p (I just HOPE they'll be supporting HDTV) signal would be OK if you didn't want to get it via cable -- certainly better than the 0 mbs you expect to get OTA for cable channels. probably if they did it, it would be like the USDTA model and be a subscription Service, which would still be interesting to me.
</Dream Mode>

Sorry to drift off topic here for a minute, everyone...

Jack - do you find that you have to re-add or rescan the locals here every day or every other day? My 921 is still losing KCNC, KRMA and KUSA about every 36 hours or so. Why don't you come over to my 921 fourm at dbstalk...it's always helpful to have more Denver people over there.

Leonard - refresh my memory...what's happening on March 26th?

Mark,

I have NEVER had to rescan. I do a manual delete, and re-scan whenever I do an antenna "tweak". But I noticed, if I delete everything, and then add DTV manually, after adding the first station, it's like it scanned every other in the background, and I have all the locals added again. (except for our buddies over at KMGH, and my 0% signal strength).

I have posted a few times on the 921 forum, (I am Broncofan7), but the few times I have posted, I got kinda turned off by some of the other members attitudes, and replies to my posts. (Not the happy gathering of helpful/friendly people, like there is here, especially for a newbie like me).

I will start posting there again, with thicker skin! :)

Originally posted by Lawood
Mark this date on your calender March 26th. This is a follow up to the question Ernie asked a few days ago. Yes it is regarding the law suit.

??????
:confused:

I think March 26th is Deb's 70th Birthday. There's gonna' be a big p-a-r-t-y!

I can confirm lawood's information -- I called the City Of Golden's appointed attorney at 303-443-3100. I got put through to someone who knew about the City of Golden v Lake Cedar Group case and asked if there was "anything going on with that". He replied that there would be a hearing a week from Friday. That would be the 26th. Then he asked "and you're with who?" I told him I was just a guy who worked in Golden and was curious. I guess we'll find out soon enough if they're reading this thread :)

I don't know what exactly will happen on the 26th, but I'm sure we'll hear from wabisabi shortly thereafter.

There's nothing illegal about asking. Heck, if it's in open court in the Taj, we could all go.

I guess I was mistaken about her birthday. It must be in April. But, if the Judge throws out the case, we can have that party anyway!

Originally posted by santellavision
There's nothing illegal about asking. Heck, if it's in open court in the Taj, we could all go.
I wasn't worried about that -- just that if they're reading this and I call again looking for information, they might be less likely to talk to me knowing that I'm on their opponent's side. Then again, it's not like we're being kept up to date real well from the people whose side we are on either :(

Oh... I though you might have been pretending to be Johnny Cochran!

"If the antennas won't fit, you must acquit!"

Originally posted by dr_mal
................. it's not like we're being kept up to date real well from the people whose side we are on either :(
I forgot, can you remind me 'whose side we are on?
:confused:
Or maybe the real question would really be "Is anyone else on our side?"

This almost sounds like a call for another meeting of the AVS forum members. If 'someone' were to find out the time of the hearing and the location perhaps a few members might show up. I am guessing the "SCARE" folks will have some people there, no doubt wearing those aluminum foil hats to protect them from the nearby RF radiation. Maybe the folks on our side should hook upside down coat hangers to their clothes to show the judge we are trying to receive our FCC mandated DTV.

If I wrote everything down correct here is the information. Case # 03CV3045, room number 5B, time 9:00am 26th March. No idea who the presiding judge will be. However it might be a good idea to verify this I didn't write down the time, but 9:00 is what I remember.
At this time I am planning on attending.

Originally posted by markdl
Sorry to drift off topic here for a minute, everyone...

Jack - do you find that you have to re-add or rescan the locals here every day or every other day? My 921 is still losing KCNC, KRMA and KUSA about every 36 hours or so. Why don't you come over to my 921 fourm at dbstalk...it's always helpful to have more Denver people over there.

Leonard - refresh my memory...what's happening on March 26th?

Mark - It's interesting that you have this problem. I've never had to rescan the locals (also in Denver). I have a VERY good line of sight and don't watch the locals very often (a few hours of OTA recording per week).

Perhaps this has something to do with it. Do you tend to leave it on the local channel when your not using it?

WB's sub channel rescanned, all by itself, to 75-1 on my Sony last night. Or was it just my imagination?

Originally posted by MRinDenver
WB's sub channel rescanned, all by itself, to 75-1 on my Sony last night. Or was it just my imagination?

That's odd, because the last 3 days my Dish 921 has been trying to map 075-01 (75.1), but it wont lock. I was wondering what channel that was. I'll try my Sony tuner tonight and see if it tries also.

Originally posted by MRinDenver
WB's sub channel rescanned, all by itself, to 75-1 on my Sony last night. Or was it just my imagination?

I noticed last night on my Samsung SIR-T150 I got 2-1, 2-2 (espanol), and 75-1. Everybody loves Raymond, but I don't need to see him x3! :D

Originally posted by gkanders
I noticed last night on my Samsung SIR-T150 I got 2-1, 2-2 (espanol), and 75-1. Everybody loves Raymond, but I don't need to see him x3! :D I noticed this on my SIR-T151 also. Started about a week ago.

Originally posted by gkanders
Anyone know if KCNC will be multicasting games this w/e?

<Dream Mode>
Also, anyone know how to get ahold of Altitude Sports (or Kroenke)? I'd like to "suggest" they lease, oh maybe 15.3 mbs of bandwidth from (maybe) KDEN (shopping network out of Longmont ch 25, DT 29) to simulcast a broadcast signal when they have an actual sporting event. I mean, KDEN certainly doesn't need more than 4 mbs to send the signal they are sending now, and I'm sure any $$ they'd get for sub-letting the space would be useful to them. I figure a 15.3 mbs 720p (I just HOPE they'll be supporting HDTV) signal would be OK if you didn't want to get it via cable -- certainly better than the 0 mbs you expect to get OTA for cable channels. probably if they did it, it would be like the USDTA model and be a subscription Service, which would still be interesting to me.
</Dream Mode>

Being in Longmont, this would be one hell of a dream! Avs HDTV being beamed in OTA from Longmont, I can't think of anything better in terms of HD right now. :D ;) :p

Originally posted by MRinDenver
WB's sub channel rescanned, all by itself, to 75-1 on my Sony last night. Or was it just my imagination? I noticed this lst w/e on my Sony -- 3 KWGN-DTs.

Originally posted by David_Levin
Mark - It's interesting that you have this problem. I've never had to rescan the locals (also in Denver). I have a VERY good line of sight and don't watch the locals very often (a few hours of OTA recording per week).

Perhaps this has something to do with it. Do you tend to leave it on the local channel when your not using it?

David - it makes absolutely no difference whether I leave it on an OTA channel or not. In fact, I can rescan the local channels, go watch one of them for an hour or two, and then switch over to KCNC or KUSA and it'll be gone. I'm really hoping this gets fixed before L148 gets sent to everyone.

Originally posted by gkanders
Anyone know if KCNC will be multicasting games this w/e?


I noticed during the Kansas game Friday that the OTA HD game on CBS (35-1) was not always the same game being broadcast on CH 4 SD (via cable) although both sent from same local CBS. For those of you who get the CBS West feed, OTA digital and either cable or OTA analog ch 4, you may have more choices than if you just camp on one CBS feed.

Anyone know what is most reliable source for which of these NCAA games will be in HD? OK, make that "are supposed to be" in HD, since we may still be at mercy of switching at our source.

Try this for CBS-TV NCAA-BB info:
<http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports/news/031604hdtv>

Mods: If this is against the rules here, feel free to delete.

I'm not using my RCA DTC-100 any more, so I'm looking to sell it to someone local. I've got the VGA->component adapter box, but I'm missing the remote control. Looking to get $250-300. I'll deliver it anywhere in the Denver metro area.

Thanks, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I just got a new Samsung SIR-360 through DirecTV for $99.00.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=337667&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

The Samsung is much better for local OTR reception then my Dish 6000 was. I now have a solid lock on 7-1 and 7-2. Also on my 61" 4x3 Sony it selects the correct aspect ratio when I switch between HD and non HD programming. Very impressed at this early stage. :)

Having programming info in the guide for all local HD is awesome.

Phil,

I agree, the 360 is nice. I got the same deal from DirecTV and replaced my Zenith HDV420. I can't say there's much difference in reception for OTA (I got 7 with both), but the guide data is great.

Steve

why does this STB get guide data for HD channels while others don't?

Originally posted by Iwanthd
why does this STB get guide data for HD channels while others don't?

It gets the guide from DirecTV. If you don't have it hooked up to the satellite, and you're only using it for OTA, it's no better at getting a local guide than any other receiver.

Originally posted by JKM
I noticed during the Kansas game Friday that the OTA HD game on CBS (35-1) was not always the same game being broadcast on CH 4 SD (via cable) although both sent from same local CBS. For those of you who get the CBS West feed, OTA digital and either cable or OTA analog ch 4, you may have more choices than if you just camp on one CBS feed.

what I noticed is that all 3 CBS HD feeds that I get on D* (WCBS-80, KCBS-81, and KCNC 4-1) pretty much broadcast the Kansas City games in HD regardless of what other regional games of interest were playing in those local markets. I don't recall the exact schedule, but KCNC was not the only station that had the HD game on digital and a different game on analog. WCBS also did that, with PC-Pacific on 80 and Xavier-Louisville on 380 for example. It added some limited value, given that only one HD game was possible (at the KC site) at any given time. I could pick up maybe 4 different games max at the same time (3 analog stations with different games, and all 3 digital stations with the same HD game), when in theory you I could have gotten up to 6 if there were more sites in HD. It looked to me like the digital broadcasters used HD as the top priority (makes sense) and games of regional interest took second priority (until CBS broke away to cover the end of a close game in any case). I guess they figure if a local customer can get the digital station, then they can also get the associated analog station and make the choice as to whether they want to watch the only game on in HD, or a more regional matchup.

On an unrelated issue, I seem to also be able to pick up 7-1 and 7-2 now at night using a small indoor amplified antenna in Castle Pines North (TS-360). I couldn't get them before, so perhaps KMGH cranked up the power on their antenna (or signal propagation characteristics have drastically improved due to global warming?)...

Originally posted by whatsupjay
what I noticed is that all 3 CBS HD feeds that I get on D* (WCBS-80, KCBS-81, and KCNC 4-1) ...If it is 4-1, you're getting it via your antenna. If it is 4, you are getting it via D* (or your antenna).
..., so perhaps KMGH cranked up the power on their antenna (or signal propagation characteristics have drastically improved due to global warming?)... Not likely they cranked much of anything (well maybe ... nevermind) -- probably due to seasonal atmospheric changes.

Jay what is the small antenna you are using to pick up 7.1 I would like to try it so I can watch the Stanley Cup Finals. Thanks

whatsupjay-
7-1 in CPN?? That is amazing, I've been trying to receive that signal with a rooftop antenna for 2 years without any luck. Where are you located?

bikenski-
I have the Samsung 160 connected to D* and I do not receive any guide info for the local HD OTA channels. Does the 360 have some software that the 160 dosen't?

Originally posted by Iwanthd
bikenski-
I have the Samsung 160 connected to D* and I do not receive any guide info for the local HD OTA channels. Does the 360 have some software that the 160 dosen't?

The 360 does have slightly different software, but the 160 should also be able to pull down the guide data using the following procedure: Go to Menu ---> Setup ---> Installation ---> Local Networks ---> Primary Air ---> and enter your zip code. Pick the appropriate city from the list, then go back to the Local Network screen. Hit Exit on the remote. The box will reboot and the guide should be downloaded, including locals.

If you DX other stations from Colo Springs, Cheyenne, or elsewhere that don't show up on the guide with your zip code... repeat the procedure with a closer zip code under Secondary Air.

Hope this helps!

Originally posted by Sportfantic
Jay what is the small antenna you are using to pick up 7.1 I would like to try it so I can watch the Stanley Cup Finals. Thanks

I'm using a Zenith Silver Sensor (amazon.com $24) with an Electroline 2400 amplifier (ebay $7 + s/h). I have to position the antenna on the island in the kitchen and point it northwest, and it's pretty sensitive to angle/azimuth, but it works. I have to use about a 15-20' piece of RG-59 to get it to the TS-360. Not the prettiest setup in the world, but I'm only expecting to use it this way until the tower is built, and no wife or kids to hassle me about it, so it's worth it. Channel 7 is still the toughest one to pull in, and I'd give it about a 95% watchability rating in terms of there are occasional signal burps or momentary pixelization, but not really serious enough to affect the viewing experience (on "Alias" the other night).

Also picks up WB-2, KCNC 4-1, PBS 6-1, 12-1-2-3, NBC 9-1, Fox 31-1, 53-1, and I think a couple of the Hispanic channels, but I don't Habla those anyway. WB-2, PBS 12, and Fox 31 I can pretty much get without the aid of the amplifier, but the other channels are shaky at best (with a big zero on 7-1 unamplified).

As far as location, I'm in the Tapestry Hills subdivision of CPN (Continental Homes); if you're playing the par-5 5th hole (the one with the lake) at the Ridge, it's the same neighborhood as the houses that line the west (right) side of the fairway. The terrain slopes up behind the house to the south with other houses high above at several levels (no way I'm getting any COS signals), and I'm slightly higher than neighbors to my north, but don't have a clear line of sight to downtown or Lookout Mtn; or Squaw. Elevation I'd say is about 6,400 MSL so I believe that helps.


For the remainder of March Madness, I believe CBS has one HD production unit that will have all the St. Louis games in HD for the Regionals, and then all the Final Four games in San Antonio in HD, so there will never be a choice between two different simultaneous HD games..

bikenski and whatsupjay-
Thank you for the responses, I will try the D* menu trick.

I realize that this is somewhat off topic, but I am wondering if any of you living in the north Denver metro area have successfully received a waiver from KGWN in Cheyenne for CHS HD via D*TV. My waiver was denied this week. Any ideas as to how I should proceed?
Thanks,
Mike in Westminster

I live in Westminster also, and went through the hoops to get waivers for the D* CBS HD feed last month. For KGWN I just called the station at (307) 634-7755 and the very friendly receptionist took care of it right away.

I also needed a waiver from KKTV in CO Springs, and I obtained that one by calling them at (719) 634-2844. They have a special voicemail box setup for waiver requests.

Have the stations fax you the waivers, then fax them into D* and follow up with a phone call. It took several calls in my case, but I finally got an agent who understood what I was trying to do and turned it on for me.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the rapid response! I'll try tomorrow and let you know the results.
Thanks again,
Mike

Originally posted by RonAuger
If it is 4-1, you're getting it via your antenna. If it is 4, you are getting it via D* (or your antenna).

Ron, you're correct - I mis-stated my setup. I get CBS-SE 80, 380 CBS-SW 81, 381 and DN-4 all thru D* and pick up KCNC-DT 4-1 on my indoor antenna...

weidheimer,

I just got CBS-W HD turned on today by DirecTV. I activated my receiver last Wednesday and was told I needed a waver from KGWN. I asked DirecTV to apply for it and it was listed as pending approval on their website billing.

On Monday I sent an e-mail to the KGWN general manager via their website.

I am not sure who got it done.

I wish DirecTV would let you get CBD-HD E&W like Dish does. I guess the only way is to get approved for the E&W analog feeds.

City of Golden/CARE vs BCC.
Judge Brooke Jackson started the hearing at 9.00AM
City Golden Attorney up first. Concerns radiation, Tower Damage(high winds, snapping guy wires, falling ice, etc) could lead to eruptible damage.
BCC attorney (Mr. Fox) up next. He just give BCC view nothing to exciting here.
LCG attorney (Mr. Campbell) up next. He highlighted the open space, replacing 4 towers with 1, lower radiation, alternate sites, ETC. No matter what happens towers will still stay on lookout mountain.
Deb Carney had her say. Give consider to the people that were on lookout mountain prior to the towers. Also do to the length of the BCC hearing they did get get a change to a rebuttal at the end(normally this is standard procedure).
11:15 broke for lunch.
1:15PM the judge gave his decision. He ruled in favor of the City of Golden and CARE.
A couple of reasons. LCG did not prove the safety and stability of the towers and the guy wires to prevent eruptible damage. There is a 21 day window in which information is to be made available and apparently this wasn't done (I beleive this to be the case). He also stated that CARE should have been allowed a rebuttal (not sure if this is related to 21 day window or the length of the BCC hearing). The judge also stated that even though the FCC says DTV is for the public interest it goes much further then just that.
CARE claimed that long BCC process hurt them and that it was caused by LCG. If I remember right it was there several 100 testifiers saying the same thing over and over again.
So where do we go from here back to the BCC.
So now it looks like anybody who predicted some time in 2006 maybe the closest. I probably got the day right just not the year.
No KMGH forever.
Deb Carney does have a smile.
There wasn't a lot of talk of interference there was was a fair amount about radiation, but didn't seem to be a real strong point.
I am sure I may have missed something.

The judge did allow LCG to continue with the site planning big deal, but there will be no construction. Mr. Campbell ask for a bond however the judge denied it.

Thank you for attending and for the report, lawood.

That is NOT good news. :mad: The only hope now is for Comcast to pick up KMGH or for D*, E*, or Voom to pick up an HD ABC feed. Any bets as to which will happen first?

Originally posted by bikenski
Thank you for attending and for the report, lawood.

That is NOT good news. :mad: The only hope now is for Comcast to pick up KMGH or for D*, E*, or Voom to pick up an HD ABC feed. Any bets as to which will happen first?
I will go with hell freezes over. Oh that wasn't one of the options.

Aw crap. This sucks.

At least I've got KCNC, KRMA, KUSA, KDVR, and KWGN now.

Maybe we should ask KMGH to puruse a temporary solution now that LCG2 is dead?

Thanks here as well Lawood, nothing like first hand info.

Reminds me of the people who would move by the old Stapleton airport and then complain about the noise.

Is this new tower so tall that "if" it fell over it would land on someone's house? :confused:

Oh lawood -- thanks for sacrificing some of your time to get this report to us. It's appreciated.

Originally posted by chile62
Is this new tower so tall that "if" it fell over it would land on someone's house? :confused:
No. LCG owns all the property within tower height of the proposed tower. The concern is the guy wires -- if the tower were to fall over sideways without collapsing on itself and the guy wires on only one side were to snap at precisely the point where they were fixed to the ground they might end up on somebody's private property.

Even sCARE's exhibits showing tower failure indicated that in the extremely rare cases where towers fail, they tend to crumple in on themselves.

The current situation has multiple towers less than tower-height away from private property.

Originally posted by dr_mal
No. LCG owns all the property within tower height of the proposed tower. The concern is the guy wires -- if the tower were to fall over sideways without collapsing on itself and the guy wires on only one side were to snap at precisely the point where they were fixed to the ground they might end up on somebody's private property.

Even sCARE's exhibits showing tower failure indicated that in the extremely rare cases where towers fail, they tend to crumple in on themselves.

The current situation has multiple towers less than tower-height away from private property.

I figured that was the case, thanks for the clarification.

Originally posted by chile62 Is this new tower so tall that "if" it fell over it would land on someone's house? :confused:

Towers are designed to have as little fallover as possible, i.e., instead to collapse upon itself. The guy wires help with that, since they keep the tower from falling over intact.

In order for fallover to happen, human intervention would have to happen. By this I mean that someone would have to plant explosives at two of the three guy wire angles and blow all at the same time, so the the pull of the guy wires on the remaining location would start to pull the tower over. But, again, once that starts to happen, the tower would start collapsing upon itself.

Why this wasn't pointed out to the judge is beyond me.

If I lived in the area in question, I would be fighting my local neighbors, as they are all idiots.

Anyone thought of doing a class-action suite against CARE?

Originally posted by mrvideo
Towers are designed to have as little fallover as possible, i.e., instead to collapse upon itself. The guy wires help with that, since they keep the tower from falling over intact.

In order for fallover to happen, human intervention would have to happen. By this I mean that someone would have to plant explosives at two of the three guy wire angles and blow all at the same time, so the the pull of the guy wires on the remaining location would start to pull the tower over. But, again, once that starts to happen, the tower would start collapsing upon itself.

Why this wasn't pointed out to the judge is beyond me.
It likely was. sCARE's tactic is to throw 1000 different worst case scenarios out there in the hopes that one of them might stick in the [commissioner|judge|neighbour]'s head and sway them. The fact that they're all nonsense makes it very time consuming to defend. I suspect the LCG was given a certain amount of time to present their case/rebut/whatever and focused on other pieces of nonsense that sCARE threw out there.
Originally posted by mrvideo
If I lived in the area in question, I would be fighting my local neighbors, as they are all idiots.

Anyone thought of doing a class-action suite against CARE?
sCARE is better funded than we (HD enthusiasts) are. It sure is getting frustrating, though.

Hey David, it's good to see you are spelling scare correctly again.

Well guys, you can stick a fork in it. It's over. Even with the judge's weak reasons, an appeal is likely to not be successful. Not with the telcom plan being opened up for revision. The appellate process would take 12-18 months anyways.

It will take months if not years of lawyer consultations, FCC consultations, Jeffco consultations etc. before Jeffco/LCG figures out what to do next before deciding if they should even appeal this. This effectively cancels the whole 2 years of working the zoning application. LCG, I hope you didn't order the tower already...

I predict KMGH will not agree to move to Republic Plaza because the tower will be built in 2 months according to them. That's like Optoma shipping a projector in 2 weeks. It's ridiculous. The tower consolidation and RF reduction ain't happening, at least not this decade.

Scare wins. Television viewers lose.


Don

Another problem is who were the main participants BCC hearing LCG & the City of Golden/CARE. Who were the main participants today the County Attorney & ( the Plaintiffs ) City of Golden/CARE. Yes the attorney for LCG did speak, but what can you cover and who can you convince in 2 1/2 hours. The attorney for Golden went first with a rebuttal at the end. Actually Deb had her few brief ( boo hoo) words at the end.
The judge did go through court jargon that went way over my head plus he cited a lot of other rulings that came into play also.
In the end I really think the judge just didn't think LCG did a good enough job relating to preventing the potential of Tower/guy wire disasters. The way he see it is what counts he is the one who gets to make the final decision. I am sure as almost everyone else is that LCG would not make any short cuts in this area. How many of these problems have we seen on Lookout Mountain over the years? I am sure the guidelines were not strictly monitored when the original towers went up. So there must be some.
The problem is judges can call the shots based on loop holes, not following the law, assumptions not to mention other things. Right or wrong they can always which ever way they want.

I recall reading WAY back in the thread (or maybe even the thread preceding this one) that an offer was made to host the transmitters on Squaw and / or Morrison rent-free. Are those offers still on the table?

Placing actual legal reasoning aside...
I think the CIty of Denver should forcibly annex the Lookout Mountain area, then use its power of condemnation and urban renewal and all that to take/buy all the property. Then Denver etc can just put up all the tower(s) it needs for its residents. :)

It doesn't sound like LCG2 is really dead if they are allowed to continue with site planning. Am I missing something?

It does sound like more delays. Maybe it would be better if it were actually dead so that they would move on to another solution (e.g. Morrison or Squaw). But the CARE folks would really lose with that, because eventually after the transition the DTV stuff would all move back to Lookout. They will probably sue to try to prevent that also.

Disgusted,
Mark

Aw crap! Hi from Philly guys, this is indeed lousy news. My estimate was 2008, when do I get my prize? Looks like I will be giving Comcast a call in the near future (or else our friends to the north) ;-)

Godda**it...

I was hoping to not have to change my signature until the tower was operational...

Oh, and I now officially join the casualty ranks of Geof and John. I've had it. There's no more fight left in me. Consider me now one of the ultra-cynical old-timers around here that doesn't really give a rat's ass about it anymore. Television just isn't worth the pain that this fight causes. The stations can go to hell. Everyone living on the damn mountain can go to hell. And the f*****g judges in the back pockets of the elite of Jeffco can go straight to hell for all I care.

Tis a sad day indeed. Go to hell is right. I don't care anymore. It's just TV. Time to move on with life.

I haven't watched one, not one, prime time show on KMGH or KUSA and my heart is still pumping blood. The world hasn't ended. I can live (comfortably in fact) without their self promoting BS and outright lying about when they'll be on the air. We own them nothing because we've gotten nothing from them.

I think the next step is for the FCC to preempt the ruling. That will, without question, throw more monkey wrenches into the works and make a lot more lawyers filthy rich but at least it'll be more entertaining than listening to KUSA tell everyone how great they are.

Oh, I did fire one more shot at KMGH with this letter to Darrell Brown. Now I'm really done.

Darrell,

I know you weren't here when we fought tooth and nail for LCG2. Cindy was still in control. But, now that you're here, you are the one that is going to have to step up to the plate and make the hard decisions. With the judge throwing out LCG2 today, there is no chance that the tower will be built and operational this year. Or next year. Or very likely for years to come. Very likely until long after the mandated digital transition is over.

So, it's time for you to look to your future, and to the future of Denver viewers that still watch KMGH. Your options just went from one to none with the decision of a single judge.

Certainly you can continue to sit and wait, having your lawyers write letters to the FCC obfuscating the issue here in Denver, claiming that your coverage area covers the metro area. Or you can face the fact that there are about 25 of out here that can actually pick up your digital signal, and the rest of Denver can't. Not with the largest consumer model uhf antenna on their roofs that money can buy. Some, not even with their own towers built in their back yards.

It's time for you to spend the $400,000 or whatever it costs to get your transmitter to the top of Republic. It's time that you face the future that to provide your signal, free of charge to Denver viewers, you are going to have to move to Republic. There are no other options. Negotiating to get your signal onto Comcast isn't a solution to many, many viewers. You know good and well that many people don't have cable in their homes for one reason or another.

It's time to get it done. No more excuses and delays. Please just get it done.

Darrell, I was the one that led the community charge in the tower hearings. I was the one that organized most of the speakers that came out to speak in favor of the towers to the commissioners. I put my heart and soul into this fight for LCG, and I was glad to do it because I believed in the cause. I spent more days than I now care to think about away from work on my own time to fight for KMGH and the rest of the LCG stations. And now, it's all for nothing. So much for the political process in this county meaning a damn thing.

So, please, for those of us that worked our backsides off for you, please get us your signal. Get it up high enough so that those of us who fought the good fight can see it. Please, just get it done.

Mark Lamutt

Originally posted by mbuchana
It doesn't sound like LCG2 is really dead if they are allowed to continue with site planning. Am I missing something?

It does sound like more delays. Maybe it would be better if it were actually dead so that they would move on to another solution (e.g. Morrison or Squaw). But the CARE folks would really lose with that, because eventually after the transition the DTV stuff would all move back to Lookout. They will probably sue to try to prevent that also.

Disgusted,
Mark

Since I am really not court jargon smart it is possible that I may have missed something. Maybe all that is required from LCG is to go back to the BCC and take the necessary steps that are required to get the injunctions imposed by the judge reversed. I just don't know.
At one point the judge did ask the Golden attorney if there intent was to eventually get all the towers off of Lookout. We know the answer.
Sounds like all we can do is wait for LCG's next move.

Originally posted by Jetlag
Aw crap! Hi from Philly guys, this is indeed lousy news. My estimate was 2008, when do I get my prize? Looks like I will be giving Comcast a call in the near future (or else our friends to the north) ;-)

Before you do that I would check and see if Judge Brooke Jackson owns Comcast Stock or shame on me ( taking money under the table ).

Originally posted by markdl
Oh, and I now officially join the casualty ranks of Geof and John. I've had it. There's no more fight left in me. Consider me now one of the ultra-cynical old-timers around here that doesn't really give a rat's ass about it anymore. Television just isn't worth the pain that this fight causes. The stations can go to hell. Everyone living on the damn mountain can go to hell. And the f*****g judges in the back pockets of the elite of Jeffco can go straight to hell for all I care.

Mark well said.
I agree it is a shame after spending countless hours convincing the BCC that putting up the super tower was the right thing to do. Sure there were guy wire concerns at that time and were addressed and everybody was satisfied.
How can a judge with 2 1/2 hours of input justify throwing out the BCC decision?

I just got home and am still in freakin' shock! Mark, I agree with you 1000%. I'm speechless... I just don't any more words.

Originally posted by markdl
Oh, and I now officially join the casualty ranks of Geof and John. I've had it. There's no more fight left in me. Consider me now one of the ultra-cynical old-timers around here that doesn't really give a rat's ass about it anymore. Television just isn't worth the pain that this fight causes. The stations can go to hell. Everyone living on the damn mountain can go to hell. And the f*****g judges in the back pockets of the elite of Jeffco can go straight to hell for all I care.

What he said!
:mad:

With the exception that I have never considered myself "ultra cynical", just merely a pragmatist who sees the situation for what it really is. As Geof said, life goes on and my heart (fortunately) still beats normally. I have several alternatives for network HD in my back yard in the form of a antenna farm, and I have long ago resigned myself to the fact that I will never see HD locally from KMGH until the analog is shut off on Lookout. As Mark said, I have burned out on this issue long ago. I still enjoy talking here with old friends with similar interests, but I really can't say anything in a post that I haven't already said 100 times before.

As for the cable option for locals, they had better either give me the locals in HD for free without any other services or they can send the bill to (S)CARE and the city of Golden. I will never 'pay' for local network service which is supposed to be for free OTA but is not because McGraw Hill is too cheap. Paying for cable puts money in the pockets of KMGH and KUSA. Let them pay for it.

Originally posted by bikenski
I recall reading WAY back in the thread (or maybe even the thread preceding this one) that an offer was made to host the transmitters on Squaw and / or Morrison rent-free. Are those offers still on the table?
First off, let's get this out on the table. Lookout is the best site. That's the reason all the towers were put there 50 freakin' years ago - before most of the sCAREd Lookout residents moved there.

There are developers who own property on Squaw and Morrison who want to have the local stations broadcasting from their property. For some reason nobody's figured out yet, Leo Bradley, the Morrison site owner, has offered to let the local stations broadcast their digital signal from Morrison for free until the Lookout situation is resolved. There's gotta be some ulterior motive, we just haven't figured it out yet.

I'm about ready to stop caring too. I can get all the locals (except KMGH) with my rooftop antenna. My HD TiVo will ship next Wednesday, allowing me to timeshift the stuff I want and never have to sit through another commercial in order to enjoy my HD content. I know two people at work who were waiting on purchasing an HD STB until the tower was built (one lives in a condo and can't put up a big antenna, the other was just going to wait for LCG2). Now they're out in the cold for now. I haven't watched KMGH for a long time now, and I don't miss ABC at all. The Alias DVDs are coming out quickly enough that I just wait for those. I can't think of anything else on ABC I might be missing (I get my NHL fix from the CBC via alternate means). But it'd be nice to have an additional HD channel to choose from.

Ah, screw it.

[edit: first post 2 pages in a row -- RonAuger must've given up too :(]

There are no words to describe the frustration, that is certain. The explicatives I have toward sCARE and company are too numerous to list. I guess I'll be continuing my one finger salute to their 'community' a lot longer. Just spent another untold hours with my CM4248 (outside) trying to get RP stations (yes, it is back up again, and my neighbor, coincidentally, just put his house on the market). I now get slightly more signal strength, but still regular drop outs of NBC and PBS. CBS is hopeless for me (sig rapidly and erratically fluctuates between the 70s to the 30s). 11PM to midnight for CSI from D* is just too late for my schedule. As much as I'd like other options, such as Morrison or Squaw, somehow I just don't envision the stations looking for other solutions - an appeal of the decision would be the most effective way to further delay DTV OTA-related expenditures for years (or forever). IF the stations want to continue to use lookout in a couple of years, they need to start their defense of the signal switch-over now, but the odds wouldn't seem to be in their favor (take nothing for granted). The only OTA solution I see for them at this point would be to request the FCC to step in, something else I don't see them wanting to do. If they get their foot in the door by transmitting ATSC from their existing towers immediately, as KDVR did, they will be able to keep their towers (FCC override required), else they will probably loose them. This would only be sCARE's final phase. On another front, this may be an opportunity for D* to do some marketing - if only D* would set up a transponder on the upcoming 7s (until LIL HD as rumored) for KUSA and KCNC - KMGH would be forever in limbo anyway, so one TP would do it (supplimented by antenna for the others that can get out of the metro via their mountain-based towers). But I don't see LIL-HD for KUSA and KCNC as a likely scenario. Goes with my wishes for a waiver from KCNC to get CBS-HD east or waivers from KUSA or KMGH if D* puts their respective HD feeds up there. Bummer... back to the DVDs (and the networks continue to wonder why they loose viewers...).

Big time clarification. Parts of tower hearings reopened by judge... zoning decision not necessarily totally thrown out. Looks like the Squaw vs. Lookout issues will be center stage...

Thanks to Charley Able of the Rocky Mountain News for this prompt info.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_2762406,00.html

Don

Judges, special interest groups, environmentalists..... they are what a once great nation has reduced itself to.

Judges have been given the power to act like local kings rule our nation, in district after district across this land. And once in office, rarely are they removed, not subject to election terms like most elected officials. Open your eyes; this is just one minor example. Statewide amendments overwhelmingly passed by the voters of this state thrown out over and over by federal judges. Why does the power of 1 judge supersede the voters of the state? And the amendments seem to be forgotten, never to be seen again. By the people, for the people, what a joke. Wake up folks, this is occurring more and more as people passively accept the ruling of judges, prompted by special interest groups and $$$.

Until average Joe American tires of dictatorship rule by judges, and don’t kid yourself that is where we are in this nation, and begins fighting, and fighting hard for the rights we once had, kiss off the nation and those rights/freedoms we had. This is just another example in many I see in what has become a rapid decline in a once great nation.

Am I angry, damm right, and getting angrier by the day~

Obviously may specialty is not reporting. Should have taken notes, but I didn't. Tried to go by memory. Another delay to drag this out longer. Another approval. Another lawsuit (approval overturned). On & on.
During Mr. Campbell testimony he mentioned how a Judge denied CARES lawsuit against Mt. Morrison. Judge Brooke response was we judges do always make the same decision. He then went into story which I won't detail but has 3 judges and each side and resulted in judges on one side voting different then the other side.
skyview I agree 100% with your statement.

I am not an anarchist... a hard working, self employed type, small biz person, but what I see with the power of judges in combo with special interest groups makes me sick, really does, and it goes so much further than this one issue, but happy I'm not totally alone in thinking that... thx lawood... very very unhappy over this issue at this point...

I read the same RMN story this morning. It does sound just LCG will have to do another Dog & Pony show to demonstrate tower safety and RF readings. They better pull out some big guns who can testify without a doubt that it will be safe.

My big question then is... What happens next? After we go through more public testimony about toaters talking and wheelchairs crashing off the mountain, does LCG then have to go back to this 'Yahoo Judge' and get his blessing?

I guess I may have to dig out the our Squaw reception map again and plan on testifing on our behalf.

Originally posted by Lawood
Obviously may specialty is not reporting. Should have taken notes, but I didn't.

Actually, you were pretty accurate in your initial report. You said it would go back to the BCC, and they can't begin construction but can continue site planning. Others drew the conclusion that the judge overturned the BCC, which apparently isn't the case.

The big question is how long this will take, and of course the final outcome is uncertain again.

Frankly, with the Lookout Mtn. history, I'm surprised that the stations didn't give up and go with Squaw back in 2000. Yes, there is a serious shadowing issue that would make their signal invisible to many viewers who can get the current Lookout analog signal. Most likely, those people would be essentially forced into getting cable unless some type of repeater/translator solution could be put in place. Partially compensating for that is the fact that Squaw covers a much larger geographic area, including areas where cable isn't even available.

Mark

Originally posted by santellavision
I read the same RMN story this morning. It does sound just LCG will have to do another Dog & Pony show to demonstrate tower safety and RF readings. They better pull out some big guns who can testify without a doubt that it will be safe.

My big question then is... What happens next? After we go through more public testimony about toaters talking and wheelchairs crashing off the mountain, does LCG then have to go back to this 'Yahoo Judge' and get his blessing?

I guess I may have to dig out the our Squaw reception map again and plan on testifing on our behalf.
As far as I am concerned there shouldn't even be any public testimony allowed at all. What would we hear that hasn't already been heard. As in Dragnet. Just the facts ma'am. I don't see Squaw as an option. In fact there is nothing to say they wouldn't put up a fight either.
Would anybody like to guess when the day will come when the existing towers will just throw the ANALOG/DTV switch?
I guess now I don't care when it happens I just hope the day never comes where Lookout Mountain is void of towers. I just don't want those people to succeed.

Others drew the conclusion that the judge overturned the BCC, which apparently isn't the case.

I still have that conclusion.

I believe that the yahoo judge has picked one of those issues to be the silver bullet that kills LCG2. When the BCC comes back to the judge to request a lifting of the injunction with the new hearing transcripts, the judge simply rules in favor of Scare and the City of Golden based on the silver bullet issue.

Done deal. Facts mean nothing.

Of course I have been called a speculative wannabe lawyer before by some high priced pin striped suits and this occasion may be no different.

Don

Originally posted by Lawood
As far as I am concerned there shouldn't even be any public testimony allowed at all. What would we hear that hasn't already been heard. As in Dragnet. Just the facts ma'am. I don't see Squaw as an option. In fact there is nothing to say they wouldn't put up a fight either.
Would anybody like to guess when the day will come when the existing towers will just throw the ANALOG/DTV switch?
I guess now I don't care when it happens I just hope the day never comes where Lookout Mountain is void of towers. I just don't want those people to succeed.

The sCARE group is stating here:
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:Aj467kmOA5YJ:www.c-a-r-e.org/pdfs/complaint_filed_091703.pdf+Jefferson+county+colorado+court+l ookout&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

in paragraph 28 (General Allegations) that the ANALOG/DTV switch can't happen. Since it is now on record, the switch doesn't seem viable at this point either.

Skyview - you are certainly not alone in your thinking - you're as right as right can be.

Edit: Thought I'd send this request to DirecTV - maybe if enough people request it they might consider?

We have extremely limited range for our local NBC and CBS Denver HD stations because of their low power transmitters at low elevation. It is physically impossible for me to get a solid signal on either of those stations. The Denver situation is unique in that they can't move their signals to the mountains like their analog broadcast signals (even in the event of the FCC shutting off the analog TV transmissions) due to local zoning difficulties and a new tower is forever locked into litigation. A new tower won't happen for years if ever. This will give a great advantage to cable that can offer NBC and CBS HD to us that we can't receive over the air (I have wasted much time and money proving it). While the CBS-HD west feed is helpful for sports, for primetime it isn't useful for most people here (CSI, for example, is on from 11PM to midnight). Please consider dedicating one transponder of the new 7S satellite for Denver Local into Local HD for KCNC-DT (CBS) and KUSA-DT (NBC).

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Originally posted by Mgibsoj

in paragraph 28 (General Allegations) that the ANALOG/DTV switch can't happen. Since it is now on record, the switch doesn't seem viable at this point either.


I know I was just being sarcastic.

My guess is that we will go through another round of JeffCo hearings (I think you're right - not open to public testimony) Then, back to that BillyBob judge. If that fails... then we might be surprised and finally see the FCC step in. This is now totally out of hand!

Why can't SCARE just go fight the Xcel's latest request for wanting to raise the voltage on our high-tension lines. That's way more of an issue than these 'lil 'ol tv towers.

Well, sCARE has said many times that the stations can't just throw the switch. The stations have also steadfastly maintained that without LCG2, the towers on Lookout would stay there forever and they CAN just throw the switch. I'm sure there will be years of hearings/court cases, etc.

At this point, I can get everything except KMGH, KDBI, and 53. I'd really be happiest if the stations do just decide to use a temporary solution until they can just "throw the switch" and use the 4 existing towers rather than one new tower. Too bad that the existing towers have guy lines extending into other peoples property, have towers sitting 4 feet from property lines, and don't have directional antennas. Too bad that one of the existing antennas has negative effects on an historic building. Too bad KUSA would just keep their DoubleDoppler radar on Lookout. Let the RF be higher for the sCARE people. Screw them.

I think I may dust off my letter to the FCC, KMGH's response, and write a new letter pointing out the disingenuous attitude and asking the FCC to "recommend" to KMGH that they come up with a better temporary solution.

At least this thread will probably stay on page 1 again!

I reserve the right to change my "go live" date in the "pool" from 1/11/2006 to some time in the distant future (or never -- if they just use thier existing antennas, there won't be a "go live" date :).

Greg

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
www.c-a-r-e.org/pdfs/complaint_filed_091703.pdf

The above link has been fixed, as your original posting had a massive error introduced by the forum software. Plus it was just plain too long, having more than what it needed in order to get at the PDF.

Originally posted by mbuchana
Frankly, with the Lookout Mtn. history, I'm surprised that the stations didn't give up and go with Squaw back in 2000.
The biggest reason they didn't go to Squaw in 2000 was the whole lease vs buy scenario. The stations own the land on Lookout; on Squaw, they'd be at the mercy of their landlord with regard to annual cost. Knowing now what we know about the difficulty of getting Lookout zoned, it may have made sense for them to go that route. But back then, it certainly made better business sense to go with the option where they'd own the land under their tower.

Originally posted by gkanders
Well, sCARE has said many times that the stations can't just throw the switch. The stations have also steadfastly maintained that without LCG2, the towers on Lookout would stay there forever and they CAN just throw the switch. I'm sure there will be years of hearings/court cases, etc.
Also, the stations had some county person tell them that absolutely they'd be able to switch over to DTV with their current antenna/transmitters; sCARE was told by another county person that there was no way they'd be allowed to do that.

Think I'm going to be sick. Guess I'll have to look for ABCHD from Cheyenne, the Springs or D*.

I thought I would post some quotes from the RMN story posted above ( http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_2762406,00.html ) since it looks like this thread is going to be around for awhile and links tend to die:

A Jefferson County District judge ruled Friday that county commissioners must reopen hearings on a high-power digital television facility on Lookout Mountain.

Judge R. Brooke Jackson decided that some of the information presented by Lake Cedar Group - a consortium of local stations KCNC-Channel 4, KMGH-Channel 7, KUSA-Channel 9 and KTVD-Channel 20 - was filed too late for opponents of the proposal to respond.

....

Opponents believe the tower's radio frequency emissions pose potential health risks and would increase interference with consumer electronics.

They also are concerned that the facility would mar the mountain scenery and lower property values.
...
"The court was careful to emphasize that by remanding portions of this back to the board, he did not find the board acted in bad faith," Masson said.

"On the contrary, he found that the Board of County Commissioners had invested substantial time and effort into the decision, including multiple hearings, 40-some hours of testimony and seven large boxes of documents."
If the RMN or moderators feel too much was quoted edit or delete this post.

I am surprised no one has thrown in a "...shame on LCG2..." for not having a rebuttal to the catstrophy scenarios. You'd think the stations would have access to engineers and expert witnesses already in line. It sounds like LCG2 let their guard down.

By the way, has anyone on LGC sought funding from the TV manufacturers?