The court was careful to emphasize that by remanding portions of this back to the board, he did not find the board acted in bad faith," Masson said.Has anyone figured out what this means? It goes back to the 3 stooges, more horrific testimony from SCARE about the earth coming to an end, LCG brings on new some charts, graphs showing lower RF, an expert or two on the un-likelyhood of tower falling senerios, then they roll out a new 6' physical model of the tower. Hellooooo, been there, done that.

But then there is the $100,000 (or should I say $400,000) question? They vote AGAIN, we wait another 8 months (I checked the timeline, it was 8 months from the last vote to this judgement) for another Golden/SCARE lawsuit and another Yahoo judge to say...

"Didn't y'all know that our city is hurtin' for water. And I don't quite think you tv fellars have enough water approved for that there big 'ol tower".

Originally posted by santellavision,
Has anyone figured out what this means? It goes back to the 3 stooges, more horrific testimony from SCARE about the earth coming to an end, LCG brings on new some charts, graphs showing lower RF, an expert or two on the un-likelyhood of tower falling senerios, then they roll out a new 6' physical model of the tower. Hellooooo, been there, done that. I think it's worse than that. I think a couple of them were up against term limits if I remember correctly.....if that is indeed the case then there could be new BCC faces and a potentially different vote (if new vote is required). Personally I think that was SCARE's strategy...force the issue back to the BCC and a re-vote with a new set of faces where the outcome is far from certain. I also recall that the SCARE backed (and funded?) RF research study is due this year and it sure seems likely that the SCARE will try to stall any new BCC vote (if required) until the results of that study are released (and the new Commissioners are in place). While I don't pretend to understand the full meaning and consequences of the Judges ruling I suspect LCG2 has been effectively killed. I hope I'm wrong but so far the entire front range has been effectively screwed by a power hungry bunch and selfish people who want windfall profits on their property. It's amazing to me that foolishness like this is allowed to continue.

Anybody know when the Commis's terms are up... Anybody, Hot, Bueler, anybody?

Originally posted by ADent
"The court was careful to emphasize that by remanding portions of this back to the board, he did not find the board acted in bad faith," Masson said.

The way I interpret this is that they did not follow the law. Ex:
Judge R. Brooke Jackson decided that some of the information presented by Lake Cedar Group - a consortium of local stations KCNC-Channel 4, KMGH-Channel 7, KUSA-Channel 9 and KTVD-Channel 20 - was filed too late for opponents of the proposal to respond.
Also CARE didn't get a chance to respond at the end. Normally they are not entitled to one(BCC/LCG didn't get to do one at the judges hearing so I am under the assumption they weren't allowed one, believe me they needed one, but doubt if it would have made a difference), but apparently the rules change if a hearing takes an extended amount of time to complete. If I remember right the BCC hearing was a month thus LCG had an advantage.
Thus it wasn't what the CARE testifiers said it was the fact that they caused the hearings to go as long as they did. However at the judges hearing the City of Golden/CARE accused LCG for dragging out the hearing. Had it wrapped up in one or two days would it have made a difference. We will never know.
What makes this interesting now is can the commissioners be persuaded to change there minds. If they do my faith in the system will go from almost none to absolutely none.
I am sure CARE will need at least a year to get ready for the next go round.

Originally posted by Tweakophyte
I am surprised no one has thrown in a "...shame on LCG2..." for not having a rebuttal to the catstrophy scenarios. You'd think the stations would have access to engineers and expert witnesses already in line. It sounds like LCG2 let their guard down.

If you are talking about the judges hearing they were not given a chance for a rebuttal. Also the case was against the BCC not LCG.

Leonard,
Was there any mention of when the new BCC hearings would start?

If I remember correctly, all of the commissioners are term limited (i.e. this is their last term), but I don't know when their individual terms are up.

I suspect the start of the new hearings will be based on some rule of what type of notice is required - 30 days, 90 days, or whatever. From the RMN article, it sounds like a new date could be set this week.

What a mess.
Mark

It gets worse (in my head, at least). Remember the sCAREd people threatening that they'd remember this case come election time? It was meant as a threat against the current BCC, but since they're all term limited, imagine if sCARE manages to convince enough people to vote for, oh, I don't know, Deb Carney (or one of her minions) to be on the next BCC?

Originally posted by santellavision
Leonard,
Was there any mention of when the new BCC hearings would start?

Sorry. No. This could be interesting. How soon can they(BCC) work it in. Plus how much prep time will attempted to be requested by both parties.
One thing we know for sure CARE will try and drag it out for as long as possible.
Maybe the BCC will just set a date and say be ready. On other hand they may ask both parties when can they be ready.

As we all know both sides have been over this subject matter before. So, I would think the BCC (who most likely are pretty pissed-off at both Golden and SCARE) would say let's get on with this as freakin' soon as possible. And sorry SCARE, but you can go F-off if you don't like it!

I would think that SCARE at these hearings will be at a huge disadvantage.

What really burns me up is the fact that I feel LCG2 is a victim along with being held hostage and should be compensated. The way I see it they did all the right things. They went with a proposal to the BCC. After all was said and done it was approved. Should be end of story but no.
Now comes the law suit against the BCC.
If LCG did something out of place (as the judge stated) it was the responsibility of the BCC to step in and handle the situation at the time of the hearing.
So legally I think the BCC should be held responsible, maybe they are but LCG2 is the one going behind bars for the so called lack of legal knowledge of the BCC.
As stated earlier the law suit was against the BCC.
Why punish LCG2 when the BCC doesn't follow they own rules and regulations as set forth by there own county.
The bottom line is the judge have thrown law suit out and sent the BCC to the penalty box.
Then to top it off the judge denied bond.

I share the frustration about the new tower(s) and with SCARE, I also want the Denver O.T.A. HDTV issues resolved as quickly as possible … I want my HDTV!

Unfortunately one of my DIGITAL or HDTV issues is with the Denver TV stations

I did a search in this thread and saw my issuue or problem posted by others before me, but I have not seen any responses to those posts nor has the problem been solved or addressed by the TV stations.

I have a Samsung SIR-T165 STB, every time I would set the STB to record a program(s) I would be missing the end or the beginning of each recorded program. I knew I was doing everything correctly but the results were always wrong. These chopped up recordings caused me a lot frustration until I finally figured out the problem.

The source or cause of the problem is the Denver Digital TV stations … Except for KCNC (CBS) all the TV stations in Denver are broadcasting the wrong clock times in their digital TV signals. I think this referred to as the PSIP time.

When you set the Samsung STBs internal clock it automatically acquires the time from the station/channel you are currently watching. If that stations clock/time is wrong the STBs internal clock is wrong. I was doing everything correctly for my recordings, but I did not know that the STBs clock was set to the wrong time, thus my chopped up recordings.

The correct time when I checked each station/channel was 5:00 pm … according to the atomic clock in Boulder, CO. The following are the times according to the Denver digital TV stations/channels … via the info displayed on screen when pressing the “info” button on the remote:

CORRECT TIME: 5:00 PM according to atomic clock in Boulder, CO.

Times’ according to Denver digital TV broadcast’s …
KWGN (WB) … 5:03 pm
KCNC (CBS) … 5:00 pm
KRMA (PBS) ... 4:58 pm
KUSA (NBC) … 4:56pm
KDVR (FOX) … 5:17 pm

What a country, we can’t even set our clocks to the correct time, now that is really SCARY!

I wonder what other problems these incorrect clock/times may be causing, the online program guide maybe!

When will the Denver TV stations set their clocks to the correct time!

Originally posted by jvern
When will the Denver TV stations set their clocks to the correct time!

Probably about the same time the stations in my local market (Madison, WI) also get their clocks to work correctly.

The local ABC affiliate's encoder can't be sync'd to the GPS clock they have running everything else. The Fox affiliate is thinking of looking for a GPS receiver for his. The other two stations I do not have a clue.

I suspect that this is a problem nation wide. BTW, I have the same STB that you do.

Welcome to another well thought out idea for our digital television... using a clock that most stations can't even sync.

I just sit here shaking my head in wonder. If we were to delete the last 300 pages of posts in this thread, we'd find that we're now just about exactly in the same situation we were back then. Ah hell, we could just delete this entire Part 3 thread, go back to the middle of Part 2, and we'd still be in the same situation. It just makes me so happy that nothing ever changes...

(heavy sarcasm inserted, if you couldn't tell...)

On the bright side, in the last 300 pages of this thread,

* WB launched respectable-power HDTV
* KUSA (I know, I know) launched the fourth-in-the-nation local HD news broadcasts (still waiting for the "very soon" enhancements)
* The Dish 921 got into the hands of some members
* The HD DirecTV TiVo will get into the hands of some members within a week

So it hasn't been a total waste.

Mark,

You and Pete were tight during the hearings....have you heard anything from him on this matter? I'd sure like to know how the LCG2 bunch are reacting to this news. Maybe we are all a bunch of Chicken Little's (I hope but wouldn't bet on that).

(Yes, I know you asked Mark)

I sent a quick note off to Pete (haven't heard back yet) and Walt DeHaven on Friday afternoon.

Walt's reply this morning sounded much more optimistic than the general tone in this thread. I didn't ask for permission to post his reply here, and he didn't offer it, so I don't feel comfortable posting it. But he wasn't in Chicken Little mode -- he seemed to be more in speedbump mode.

I did ask Pete for something that could be posted -- we'll see if he replies.

I sent Pete a note as well a while ago. No reply yet. I haven't posted on this before as I was choosing to remain optimistic until something specific came out on the effect of the Judge's ruling.

Even with a new tower, the stations need to get their HD controls in place. Last night, KUSA was showing L&O in SD. KMGH had no sound on their 17-2 HD channel during Alias. I called them and their solution was to transmit their stretched SD signal with sound. KCNC, as usual, was doing a great job with picture and sound.

Originally posted by dr_mal
(Yes, I know you asked Mark)

I sent a quick note off to Pete (haven't heard back yet) and Walt DeHaven on Friday afternoon.

Walt's reply this morning sounded much more optimistic than the general tone in this thread. I didn't ask for permission to post his reply here, and he didn't offer it, so I don't feel comfortable posting it. But he wasn't in Chicken Little mode -- he seemed to be more in speedbump mode.

I did ask Pete for something that could be posted -- we'll see if he replies.
I wasn't very optimistic when I left, but then again I only reported it the way I saw it. To me it was just another set back with no idea how long it might take to get resolved one way or the other. I am sure LCG2 is much more up to date on the logistics as to what is actually taking place and needs to be done.
Maybe I should have waited until more accurate and up to date information was released.
Sorry if I caused some unnecessary sarcasm. However I still think the judge should not be putting us through this. I hate to say, but if it is just a case of going back to the BCC and letting them make it right, I can accept it.

Leonard,

I don't think you owe apologies to anyone. I am very happy you went to the hearing and gave us a first hand accounting. As pointed out earlier there has been a lot of second guessing and leaping to conclusions in this thread (myself included) probably for several reasons: 1) given the history it's what we'd all expect and 2) none of us are legally savvy nor fully understanding of what the process entails. If the judge only sent parts of this back to the BCC it's possible the situation can get resolved quickly, and this is merely a speedbump. At least the judge didn't outright vacate the ruling, which would have been disastrous. On one hand I'm cautiously optimistic that LCG2 can be saved but on the other hand we all know this can turn in an instant. Regardless, thanks again for telling us what happened in court.

Thanks David and Dennis. What we need right now in this thread is a dose of "factual interpretation". Hopefully Pete will contact one of us and let us know their take on the matter.

Originally posted by dr_mal
On the bright side, in the last 300 pages of this thread,

* WB launched respectable-power HDTV
* KUSA (I know, I know) launched the fourth-in-the-nation local HD news broadcasts (still waiting for the "very soon" enhancements)
* The Dish 921 got into the hands of some members
* The HD DirecTV TiVo will get into the hands of some members within a week

So it hasn't been a total waste.

A few other things to add:

* Comcast began offering limited local HD service (though still no KMGH)
* A greater number of people (myself included) purchased HD equipment, began sending letters to the stations, etc. Eventually the voices will be loud enough that they'll have to listen.

(I'd post this elsewhere, but all the Denver people are here)

No sound for the 1st half hour on Alias.... For the 10 of us watching ABC OTA. Dead silence for the 1st half hour of the show. Then 2.0 for a commercial break. Then more dead silence. Then at the next commercial bread they switch to up-rezzed SD (with 2.0 sound). Sheesh...

Then on the LA feed of Cold Case (Dish Network). Around 5 mins into the show I think they flipped to 2 minutes of a clip from a prior episode.

(Thankfully I also have both recorded from the Dish LIL feed)

Yep,
KMGH was buggered Sunday night. I called in and told them about the no sound. They said it was a problem with their server. Their tape backup was out for repair, so they had to switch to the "push up and zoom" NTSC upncovert. Looks like they had it fixed in time for last night's showing of the Haunting. The good part about recording with DVHS is that it records the entire stream. I never thought I'd say that it's a good thing to multi cast, but I can watch the SD feed if the HD feed is buggered.

I got some feedback from a "little bird who told me" but who cannot publicly comment on the LCG case and the ruling. This is the essence of what (s)he said totally off the record:

"We will be talking with the County Attorney’s office tomorrow and collectively decide what to do. It is anticipated that we will have the hearing to accommodate the judge even though we disagree with his conclusion. It simply is the most expeditious and safe option."

Hopefully, the hearing will alleviate the concerns and allow the construction to proceed as planned. We will see.

Thanks for that update, Dennis. I'm slowly ramping up to cautious optimism again.

Thanks Dennis. That sounds mildly encouraging. Having the hearing is one thing but I sure wish I knew more about the process - and the possible consequences - following that hearing.

Thanks for the update. Given the history of the project and the desire of the stations to get on the air, there is certainly nothing here for concern that I can see. :rolleyes:

After all, "What could possibly go wrong....go worng....go wrong.....goworng.......go!"

Be sure to let me know when I can scan my receiver and see KMGH. I think their lawyers said it will be this spring. I wonder, does anyone know if they meant April or May?

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
It is anticipated that we will have the hearing to accommodate the judge even though we disagree with his conclusion. It simply is the most expeditious and safe option."

There is no doubt about that.

Thanks Dennis. Unlike Dave, however, I think I'll hold off on the cautious optimism at least until we see how the hearings go.

I just got the following note from KRMA. Not good news. If I wanted to watch crappy analog programming, I would tune to channel 6. This FCC ruling certainly doesn't help promote HD given that PBS national sends a separate HD feed which the public would obviously rather watch if interested in HD. As much as I don't want multicasting, I sent her a note asking if they could send the PBS HD 24 hour feed on 18-1 and simulcast their channel 6 analog signal on 18-2. It would impact the quality of the HD broadcast somewhat but would give the public a lot better choice to see HD programming.


On Thursday, April 1, 2004 KRMA DT-18 will change its schedule to reflect the FCC mandate that we must carry 75% of our analog schedule as a simulcast.
Therefore, we will not carry the local loop from Noon-3pm, nor any of the HD programs from 3pm-6pm.
Attached is a list of the HD programs you can see on KRMA DT-18 from 6:00pm -12:00am.
Many of the programs scheduled from 6:00pm-12:00am that are not HD Versions will most likely be upconverted Standard Widescreen versions of programs.

Debbie Kerley
Programming
Rocky Mountain PBS


Here is the schedule she sent as a document:


APRIL 2004 HD SCHEDULE FOR KRMA-DT 18

ALL TIME ARE MOUNTAIN TIME

DATE TIME PROGRAM

4/1 6:00pm NOVA “Hunt for the Supertwister”
9:00pm NOVA “Hunt for the Supertwister”

4/2
6:00pm American Experience: Abe & Mary Lincoln
8:00pm Tim Janis: Beautiful America
9:00pm American Experience: Abe & Mary Lincoln
11:00pm Tim Janis: Beautiful America

4/3 6:00pm American Experience: Abe & Mary Lincoln
8:00pm American Family: La Casa
9:00pm American Experience: Abe & Mary Lincoln
11:00pm American Family: La Casa

4/4 6:00pm NOVA: Hunt for the Supertwister
7:00pm Earl Cunningham, Dragon of St. George Street
8:00pm Digital TV: A Cringley Crash Course
8:30PM Fiesta in the Sky
9:00pm NOVA: Hunt for the Supertwister
10:00pm Earl Cunningham, Dragon of St. George Street
11:00pm American Family: La Casa

4/5 6:00pm Face: Jesus in Art # 101
7:00pm Face: Jesus in Art # 102
9:00pm Face: Jesus in Art # 101
10:00pm Face: Jesus in Art # 102

4/6 6:00pm American Family # 201
8:00pm Earl Cunningham, Dragon of St. George Street
9:00pm American Family #201
11:00pm Earl Cunningham, Dragon of St. George Street

4/7 NO HD PROGRAMS BROADCAST





4/8 6:00pm American Family #201
8:00pm Earl Cunningham, Dragon of St. George Street
9:00pm American Family #201
11:00pm Earl Cunningham, Dragon of St. George Street

4/9 7:00pm Face: Jesus in Art # 101
8:00pm Face: Jesus in Art # 102
10:00pm Face: Jesus in Art # 101
11:00pm Face: Jesus in Art # 102

4/10 8:00pm American Family: #201
11:00pm American Family # 201

4/11 8:00pm American Family # 202
11:00pm American Family # 202

4/12 7:00pm American Experience “Emma Goldman”
8:30pm Kartchner Caverns
10:00pm American Experience “Emma Goldman”
11:30pm Kartchner Caverns

4/13 6:00pm NOVA “Life’s Greatest Miracles”
9:00pm NOVA “Life’s Greatest Miracles”

4/14 7:30pm Kartchner Caverns
10:30pm Kartchner Caverns

4/15 6:00pm American Family # 202
9:00pm American Family # 202

4/16 7:30pm Kartchner Caverns
8:00pm American Family # 202
10:30pm Kartchner Caverns
11:00pm American Family # 202

4/17 6:00pm American Experience: Emma Goldman
7:30pm Kartchner Caverns
9:00pm American Experience: Emma Goldman
10:30pm Kartchner Caverns

4/18 8:00pm American Family # 203
11:00pm American Family # 203

4/19 NO HD PROGRAMS BROADCAST

4/20 8:00pm American Family # 203
11:00pm American Family # 203

4/21 6:00pm Great Performances: Dance in America
9:00pm Great Performances: Dance in America

4/22 6:00pm American Family # 203
8:00pm Great Performances: Dance in America
9:00pm American Family # 203
11:00pm Great Performances: Dance in America

4/23 6:00pm Defiant Requiem
7:30pm Crown of the Continent
9:00pm Defiant Requiem
10:30pm Crown of the Continent

4/24 NO HD PROGRAMS BROADCAST

4/25 NO HD PROGRAMS BROADCAST

4/26 NO HD PROGRAMS BROADCAST

4/27 6:00pm American Family # 204
9:00pm American Family # 204

4/28 8:00pm Fiesta in the Sky
8:30pm Matisse & Picasso
11:00pm Fiesta in the Sky
11:30pm Matisse & Picasso

4/29 6:00pm American Family # 204
9:00pm American Family # 204

4/30 NO HD PROGRAMS BROADCAST

Well if KRMA could use the same upconverter that KWGN uses then it would not be too crappy. But I'm with you in that I'd rather have them simulcast as you outlined rather then proceed along their present path.

BTW, is that little bird going to be singing into your ear again so you could tell us what they decided in their conference call (and when to expect new hearing(s)??

The PBS strategy has me very confused. What good is a 24-hour "PBS HD Channel" (which is the best thing on TV, IMHO), when none of the affiliates can carry it due to simulcast requirements? Eventually they have to simulcast 100% of the time. In addition, they've got PBS-You and PBS Kids. Fortunately we have two PBS affiliates to help spread this out (and so that we can have two pledge festivals running at the same time :)).

The only answers I see are:
1. Multicasting, with the corresponding loss in HD quality
2. The station has to get an HD server, and only show the HD content at the same time corresponding to the analog channel. Essentially, there is no such thing as a "PBS HD Channel" in this case, it would instead be similar to what the commercial networks do.

If anyone at PBS knows how this is all supposed to work, that would be interesting to know.

Mark

Geof et al:

I asked the "little bird" to share timing and strategy and asked how we might help. We will see.

Has anything else changed with KRMA-DT? I haven't been able to get their signal the last two days even though it came in fine before and I still get KUSA and KCNC with no problems.

Of course with the new schedule, maybe I don't care so much. It seems like what we are losing is the noon-6PM stuff; they were already simulcasting from midnight to noon. The best of this was the "Great Museums" and "Smart Travels" series but I think I've seen most of them by now anyway.

I was about to write to the forum when I noticed the above two posts. I think I can help clarify the Rocky Mountain PBS strategy.

Speaking personally (I have a 60" Samsung DLP dislpay and Comcast HD receiver at home), I was disappointed with the FCC requirement. However, KRMA must obviously comply with the 75% simulcast rule. We can apply for a waiver. Our attorneys weren't encouraging, but we may try anyway.

We have a new HD server that we're in the process of getting up and running. As with many things technical, it's taking a bit longer than we'd hoped. With the server we'll be airing PBS HD programs on CH 18 opposite their SD equivalent on CH 6. We'll also be about to repeat the best HD material at other times of day.

I should also mention a few choices we've made to maintain the highest DTV quality we can:

- our simulcast is in 480i because we ran a series of tests last year and concluded that this looked better (sharper, fewer artifacts) than the same sources upconverted to 1080i, at least when using our Sony upconverter. We involved the members of this forum in some of those tests.

- using our HD server, we won't be decoding to baseband HD and then re-encoding. Instead we'll be recording the HD feed from PBS as 19.39 Mbps MPEG and playing it to air the same way. This avoids a generation of decoding/encoding, thus preserving the original quality.

Jim Schoedler
Director of Network Engineering
Rocky Mountain PBS

Originally posted by oxothuk
Has anything else changed with KRMA-DT? I haven't been able to get their signal the last two days even though it came in fine before and I still get KUSA and KCNC with no problems.


We don't think we've changed anything, but we're always interested in feedback. If you'll let us know what kind of receiver you're using, we may be able to detect and fix a problem.

Jim

I just sent KRMA a note commenting on this situation. With the logic they are following, whenever the 100% simulcast mandate is to take effect, then I guess they would stop all HD broadcasts! What a dumb situation!

Perhaps a few of you could send some comments to them regarding this. (http://www.rmpbs.org/resources/comment.html and Debbie_Kerley@KRMA.pbs.org)

They may think, like the other stations, that there just aren't many people watching HD broadcasts. I have told them that HD is all I watch and that my 2004 contribution will be based on them finding ways to increase HD programming, not lessen it.

My KRMA signal has been fine. In fact, I don't recall any time that I could not receive KRMA!

Jim Schoedler,

That sounds like a good approach to me. I can barely get Ch. 6 (analog) over the air, so matching the Ch. 6 content will be a benefit. Naturally, I'm hoping more and more PBS content will be HD (or at least widescreen SD) so we get close to that 24-hour "PBS HD Channel." This actually does seem to be happening. I'm still not sure what PBS is doing with that "special" 24-hr HD channel since no one can carry it full time.

If you get a chance, can you also give us an update on Mt. Morrison?

Thanks,
Mark

Just to play the devil's advocate here...

The average person would expect what is listed in the TV Guide to be what is being broadcast on KRMA (whether it's the analog or digital station). Since eventually the analog station will be turned off, the FCC is using this 75% rule to transition to a time when only one signal will be broadcast.

Personally, when we have a permanent high-power digital TV tower built, I'll drop the local channels package from satellite and use my digital tuner to pick up everything local (including KRMA). When that happens, I don't want to miss programs because they aren't available on the digital channel. (My analog reception sucks--I'd rather watch upconverts). Until that happens, I hope the FCC gives KRMA a waver to broadcast as much HDTV as possible. Who knows... by the time the tower is built everything may be broadcast in HDTV. :D

Has anything else changed with KRMA-DT? I haven't been able to get their signal the last two days

oxothuk, do I recall correctly that you've got a Samsung?

Recently my Sammy lost both KRMA and KBDI signals. Thought there might have been an issue with PBS in general. I really wanted to watch the Concert For George.

What I found was that I was getting a strong signal, but no picture or sound. A reboot cured all. Oh, yes, the concert was good. :cool:

As to why - I guess I'll never know. :confused:

You might just check signal strength, and reboot if necessary. Give it a shot.

Originally posted by mbuchana
Jim Schoedler,

If you get a chance, can you also give us an update on Mt. Morrison?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark,

Our consultants have completed the design work for the Mt. Morrison tower and now we're awaiting completion of the zoning process with Jefferson County so we can apply for a building permit. We put a lot of engineering work into antenna design and selection to comply with all the county and federal requirements, and completed that task earlier this month.

Public Interest Communications was recently awarded a grant that covers some of the costs to build the tower and purchase new antennas, and we continue to seek additional funding.

Overall, we've made substantial progress and are pushing the project forward daily.

Jim

Originally posted by ByH2O
oxothuk, do I recall correctly that you've got a Samsung?

Recently my Sammy lost both KRMA and KBDI signals. Thought there might have been an issue with PBS in general. I really wanted to watch the Concert For George.

What I found was that I was getting a strong signal, but no picture or sound. A reboot cured all. Oh, yes, the concert was good. :cool:



Last weekend our Samsung here at KRMA also locked up and needed a reboot.

Jim

Originally posted by Jim Schoedler

Overall, we've made substantial progress and are pushing the project forward daily.

Jim

Thanks, Jim.

Are you willing to go out on a limb and estimate an on-air date? (You knew that one was coming :)).

Mark

Originally posted by mbuchana
Thanks, Jim.

Are you willing to go out on a limb and estimate an on-air date? (You knew that one was coming :)).

Mark

That is so hard to predict. The biggest variable right now is in the zoning process. If that goes smoothly we could be ready to start building the tower this fall. What I can tell you for sure is that we're working on this steadily, trying to make it come to pass.

Hi Jim.

Tonight (at 9:27) I lost KRMA on my Sammy T-150. Actually, I think it may be the same problem I mentioned about a year ago. At that time, you replied that my information helped you track down the issue. Anyway, I seem to have the same issue as before: I was able to get to 6-1 by surfing through the channel, but once I left it, my unit no longer remembered that there was a 6-1 and I just looped through it. Now it never shows up when I surf channels. If I put in channel 18, I get the green LED showing a good signal, but the "no signal" message is displayed on the screen, and the channel number displayed stays at 18-0. So again I think my unit "cached" the PSIP information and it worked, but once it updated the PSIP information, I was lost. Since you are no longer doing the 80-3 thing during the day, I think I may be in trouble. My "old" brain struggles to remember that far back, but I believe that was "resetting" my PSIP info somehow.

Anyway, I tried "rebooting" (well, just unplugging for a minute or so -- if there is a real way to reboot, I'll try it if someone tells me how) and that didn't have any effect (although I do get KDEN now, which was exhibiting a similar problem in the past -- it at least stayed in my channel list and showed 25-1, but I got the "no signal" message. I didn't really care about that one as I kind of think they have "no content").

Thanks in Advance if you can help me resolve this issue, Greg

Originally posted by gkanders
Hi Jim.

Tonight (at 9:27) I lost KRMA on my Sammy T-150. Actually, I think it may be the same problem I mentioned about a year ago. At that time, you replied that my information helped you track down the issue. Anyway, I seem to have the same issue as before: I was able to get to 6-1 by surfing through the channel, but once I left it, my unit no longer remembered that there was a 6-1 and I just looped through it. Now it never shows up when I surf channels. If I put in channel 18, I get the green LED showing a good signal, but the "no signal" message is displayed on the screen, and the channel number displayed stays at 18-0. So again I think my unit "cached" the PSIP information and it worked, but once it updated the PSIP information, I was lost. Since you are no longer doing the 80-3 thing during the day, I think I may be in trouble. My "old" brain struggles to remember that far back, but I believe that was "resetting" my PSIP info somehow.

Anyway, I tried "rebooting" (well, just unplugging for a minute or so -- if there is a real way to reboot, I'll try it if someone tells me how) and that didn't have any effect (although I do get KDEN now, which was exhibiting a similar problem in the past -- it at least stayed in my channel list and showed 25-1, but I got the "no signal" message. I didn't really care about that one as I kind of think they have "no content").

Thanks in Advance if you can help me resolve this issue, Greg Greg, I have an October 2002 model SIR-T151 and I am seeing pretty much the same symptoms as you are. I too get the green LED but the roving "No Signal" logo when I switch to KRMA. I deleted 6-1 from the channel list and now cannot get it back. "Memorize Channels" scans right past it. Going directly to 18 does nothing either.

At least this doesn't lock up the receiver like KWGN did when they started broadcasting.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Geof et al:

I asked the "little bird" to share timing and strategy and asked how we might help. We will see.

Why would we want to divulge a strategy on a public forum?

Originally posted by gkanders
Hi Jim.

Tonight (at 9:27) I lost KRMA on my Sammy T-150.



When we resolved this previously it was a PSIP generation issue in our multiplexer here at Rocky Mountain PBS. and I think we may have the same issue again. We'll check the unit today and hopefully get this resolved right away. Thanks for the report.

Jim Schoedler

oxothuk

I am having the same issue with a Sony HD-100. I re-scanned the other night and now no 6.1. I haven't checked to see if it finding a signal on 18 or not. I can try that later just to see.

Later
Joe

I rescanned last night and now 6.1 shows up again. I dunno what happened but it seems to be back.

Later
Joe

KRMA was back for me again last night. Tuned to 18, and it immediately showed a picture and change the OSD channel # to 6-1.
Thanks Jim!

Greg

Sorry if I missed it, if this was posted earlier, but did everyone get the email from KRMA that they are going to HD only from 6PM-12AM. No more Smart Traver's for Denver. That really sucks. I love that show.

Originally posted by Greg T
No more Smart Traver's for Denver. That really sucks. I love that show. Me too, although I think I've seen almost all of them now.

A suggestion for Jim, if he's reading this forum: If you have to get your 75% in to pacify the FCC, why not simulcast from 10PM to 4PM so we can get a bigger variety of HD content? The 10PM-midnite slot on PBS-HD just repeats what was on earlier in the evening and it's past my bedtime anyway, whereas 4PM-6PM had a lot more variety that is not repeated later.

Oh, and thanks Jim for fixing the PSIP problem, my SIR-T151 is happy now.

Just when I begin to feel this HDTV investment has been a waste, I see an add on TV for www.voom.com

Anyone know much about this.... according to the website. 30 full time HD channels along with 40 digital cable favorates... alas dont see local channels/network channels, which of course would make this a done deal...

Comments???

Originally posted by skyview
Just when I begin to feel this HDTV investment has been a waste, I see an add on TV for www.voom.com

Anyone know much about this.... according to the website. 30 full time HD channels along with 40 digital cable favorates... alas dont see local channels/network channels, which of course would make this a done deal...

Comments??? Go look in the HDTV Programming section where there is lots of discussionh about VOOM.

I looks like one of the better places for Voom information is here:

http://69.93.121.245/forumdisplay.php?f=24

Thanks ... helpful links.... not sure worth the effort to drop direct though... looks like lots of uncertainty.

2 recent threads over in the HDTV Programming section mention things some people are having heartburn over:

1. You have to have a lindline phne line plugged into your STB.
2. DVI must be HDCP. Component is NOT being down-rezzed (at least yet).

cheers, Greg

This might have been discussed already, but a quick search didn't bring up anything relevent:

Lately, KDVR sip-synch problems (which were pretty bad) seem to have gone away. This is with a quick snap-shot (last night's Simpsons and yesterday mornings Fox News Sunday). Lips were right on target with voice. This is good news, since 24 and OC were watch only with SDTV, since I couldn't stand the lip-synch problem...but with that fixed, EDTV isn't sounding too bad.

Any comments/thoughts?

Rgds,

JohnW

Hello Everyone

Is anyone on here getting one of the new HD Tivo's? I am thinking about getting one but am curious as to how sensitive the tuner is going to be. Maybe someone one the list will be able to tell us if this guy is going to work in our low power situation here in Denver.

Thanks
Joe

I've got one on order -- #79 at value electronics. Should be here sometime in the next week or so.

I wouldn't worry about the tuner sensitivity -- it should be using a relatively new tuner for OTA reception.

I've got one on order too but I won't get mine if the first wave of shipments (I'm not nearly as quick as Dave :) ). I would expect/hope the tuner to be more sensitive and more forgiving of multipath than my current Hughes E86 HD STB but in my case I am not holding out any hope I'll be able to receive anything more than KCNC (although it'd sure be nice to get KRMA DT again).

After reading the manual on this beastie I can see this will be nice. No more having to figure out whether CSI or Enterprise is a repeat or not and no more trying to figure out when they're on...But I will miss not having Caller ID. These DVR thingee's might just catch on :D

Originally posted by jwehman
Lately, KDVR sip-synch problems (which were pretty bad) seem to have gone away. This is with a quick snap-shot (last night's Simpsons and yesterday mornings Fox News Sunday). Lips were right on target with voice. This is good news, since 24 and OC were watch only with SDTV, since I couldn't stand the lip-synch problem...but with that fixed, EDTV isn't sounding too bad.

Any comments/thoughts?


I checked lip-sync this AM and just now and audio/video sync is still good - now if only they'd stop that 14:9 stretch... Still not sure what to do with their 14:9 on a 4:3 set - watch it square with the side bars or leave the 4:3 stretched and crop off the sides.... sheesh. I read in another thread that FOX corp is supplying the 720p equipment to all their O&Os (which includes KDVR) - maybe (hopefully) it won't support 14:9 - but then again, if it doesn't, they may just leave it in the box. I read many moons ago on this thread that they already have 720 capability ready to go - not sure what's stopping them from implementing it then.

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
I checked lip-sync this AM and just now and audio/video sync is still good - now if only they'd stop that 14:9 stretch... Still not sure what to do with their 14:9 on a 4:3 set - watch it square with the side bars or leave the 4:3 stretched and crop off the sides.... sheesh. I read in another thread that FOX corp is supplying the 720p equipment to all their O&Os (which includes KDVR) - maybe (hopefully) it won't support 14:9 - but then again, if it doesn't, they may just leave it in the box. I read many moons ago on this thread that they already have 720 capability ready to go - not sure what's stopping them from implementing it then.

Here is what Fox is supplying to all affiliates:

FOX SPLICING SYSTEM HIGHLIGHTS

FOX has decided to supply its DTV affiliates with an HDTV MPEG Splicer System for the HD feed starting next September.

Splicing is a new form of video switching. The Splicer substitutes for the traditional video switcher in Master Control when switching (“splicing”) between MPEG streams of audio and video. The FOX Splicer System will also include a logo inserter capable of HD branding during non-Network time as well as Network time.

Splicing between MPEG streams, rather than the traditional switching of digital video, especially in the HD environment, will save significant capital monies and bandwidth for Stations and the Network.

Here are some highlights of the FOX Splicer System:

1. FOX will provide, install and maintain the Splicer at its cost as it does for the existing satellite equipment.

2. Stations are always in direct, positive control of what goes on their air.

3. Minimizes cost of HD conversion of Station’s Master Control.

4. More cost effective when the Station’s satellite dish is remote from its Master Control.

5. Delayed broadcast HD equipment becomes very cost effective.

6. Without any further capital expenditure Stations will be able to broadcast Network Dolby Digital (digital 5.1 surround sound).

7. Local and Network branding of HD stream included within Splicer.

8. Network branding will be customized for each affiliate.

9. Bandwidth is preserved for other applications.

10. FOX will continue Mountain Time Zone feed.

Guide to Fox Splicing System
Introduction
As you know, FOX announced, "*at least one half of its prime time schedule will be in HD next season*.". Today, FOX announces that it will deploy the FOX Splicer System to affiliated Stations in order that they can pass FOX in HD on to viewers. This deployment will begin in March in anticipation of a September start for HD on FOX.

The FOX Splicer System will allow a Station to "splice" between FOX's 720p feed delivered via the Wegner receiver and its own, local, 720p ATSC encoder.

The System will also include a logo inserter that will be capable of branding during Station, as well as Network time.

The System will accommodate secondary programs and data transmissions. And since the Network's feed will be "ATSC Broadcast ready" all shows produced in Dolby Digital will be enjoyed by viewers without the need for Stations to purchase Dolby 5.1 encoders.
Overview
The Splicer within the System has the capability of inserting logos over the output stream without requiring the decoding of the 720p MPEG stream back to baseband (HD-SDI). The Splicer will be under local station control via a general purpose interface (GPI). In addition to switching and logo insertion, the FOX Splicer System will ensure that the Program System Information Protocol (PSIP) is correct and allows for secondary programs to be transmitted.

Fox will begin the rollout of equipment to the affiliate stations starting in March 2004. Fox has contracted with Thomson/Grass Valley to provide all wiring, installation and checkout of the network equipment. The equipment being supplied will be assembled and tested at their Nevada City location prior to shipping to Stations.

Beginning in August 2004, FOX will begin 720p transmissions alongside the normal Fox Widescreen transmissions during Prime Time. During this period, stations will transition from FOX Widescreen to HD on FOX using the System.

For DTV Stations that have not had their Splicer System installed, checked out, or their DTV facilities fully commissioned FOX will continue to deliver all it's Prime Time programming in both FOX Widescreen (480p) as well as HD (720p). FOX will continue delivering sports programming in FOX Widescreen.

What Station will need to do to prepare for installation:

Stations will need to establish a primary contact person that FOX and Thomson can communicate with to schedule the installation as well as facilitate a successful installation. A survey is being sent to your station and will need to be filled out and returned as soon as possible including the contact persons name, phone number, email and mail address.

The FOX Splicer System is designed to fit into the bottom (8) rack units of the FOX Network Digital Satellite System equipment enclosure. If the Station has installed its own equipment in that space, we request that you relocate this prior to installation of the Splicer System. The Station will need to provide access to a standard analog telephone line in order to be able to setup and diagnose any problems with the Splicer System. This telephone line can be shared with the existing FOX Network Digital Satellite System.

Standard video/ASI and control cables will be needed to interface to the FOX Splicer System. A one line drawing and more detailed System description will be forthcoming.

The Station's ATSC encoder will need to operate at 720p59.94 (hp @ hl). Of course, and to the extent a Station does not produce its own shows in HD, its Master Control output must be converted to 720p as well. While it is possible to splice seamlessly between any possible Station format (480i, 1080i, etc) and FOX's format, it is not recommended. Most DTV receivers in viewer's homes take several seconds to accommodate such format changes during which no picture or sound are displayed.

There are more details about Audio services and PSIP that will be included in a more detailed transmission.

Finally, the FOX Splicer System will install most easily if the FOX Network Digital Satellite System, the Station's Master Control, and its ATSC Encoder are colocated. FOX will assist Station's with the design of link facilities among or between remote sites as the case may be. However, as is the current policy for analog and FOX Widescreen links, the procurement, installation, and maintenance of such links is the responsibility of the Station.

What Thomson will do:

Thomson/GVG will contact the Station weeks in advance to coordinate an installation date. When the installation date approaches, Thomson will contact the person nominated by the Station to coordinate their visit, ascertain the Station's operating parameters and arrange for Station personnel to work with the Thomson installation crew. We anticipate the installation to take no more than one day.

During the installation visit, the Thomson personnel will verify correct Splicer System operation prior to connecting to the station's DTV transmitter. To confirm all is in order, FOX will be sending test transmissions over the FOX Network Digital Satellite System during normal business hours for use in installation commissioning.

At the successful completion of the installation and testing, the Station's authorized representative will sign off on a completion report that will be sent back to FOX.




As I read it, they will be able to pass along whatever they want, including their 14:9 video. There is no reason to go 720p, at the moment, since Fox isn't sending 720p material yet.

Originally posted by mrvideo
Here is what Fox is supplying to all affiliates:

FOX SPLICING SYSTEM HIGHLIGHTS
... spiced for brevity...

As I read it, they will be able to pass along whatever they want, including their 14:9 video. There is no reason to go 720p, at the moment, since Fox isn't sending 720p material yet.

Yep, that's not good news. Actually, it wouldn't hurt to begin to implement their 720p capability now, because they know it's coming, and it took something like 4 years to get their 480p working properly. Also, the splicing system may not be compatible with their UK-source equipment (I don't think they use the recommended Wegner receiver (US-source). Thanks for the info though...

Thanks for the info on the HD Tivo, I've never owned a Tivo before but sounds like I might be missing something. I bet that the tuner in this guy has to be better than the one in my Sony HD-100, newer technology and everything.

Thanks again
Joe

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
Yep, that's not good news. Actually, it wouldn't hurt to begin to implement their 720p capability now, because they know it's coming, and it took something like 4 years to get their 480p working properly. Also, the splicing system may not be compatible with their UK-source equipment (I don't think they use the recommended Wegner receiver (US-source). Thanks for the info though...

The station MUST use the Wegener 5000 receiver, since it is Fox supplied and it is the ONLY way to receive Fox Network programming. Actually, each station is supplied a rack with up to FOUR such receivers. Receiver A is the primary SD NTSC net receiver, Receiver B is the backup SD NTSC receiver and Receiver C is the Widescreen receiver. The fourth receiver, D, is the Fox affiliate newsfeed receiver, if they paid to get the Fox news feeds. Plus, when they turn on network feed encryption, only the Wegener 5000 receiver, with Fox specialized firmware, will be able to be addressed to unencrypt.

Fox controls the receivers remotely, to tell it which of 16 digital channels it is to output. The station cannot control the receiver, as the front panel is turned off to not allow channel switching, plus the serial port is connected to a modem that Fox dials into regularly. My guess is that they password protected the remote port.

The splicer will be compatible.

Thanks again mrvideo - the info is most welcome in that it would seem, therefore, that our Fox affiliate will be broadcasting 720p when it is available, and that if there's problems downstream from the splicer that it will be recitfied in a timely manner. Looking forward to it!

As far as the 14:9 aspect ratio goes - I believe it is short-lived anyway - so IMO they may just as well give in when they go to 720p and just do 4:3 as 4:3 or stretched 16:9. After the analog shut-off, the cable head-ends will be receiving 31-1 only, and most will still probably be watching 4:3 TVs, and there's no good way to watch a 14:9 picture on a 4:3 TV. Fox31 would only be doing themselves an injustice to stick with 14:9. At least HD 16:9 will fill the screen to the sides (but the letterbox will be there, of course).

Did KGWN-DT recently boost their power, or are atmospheric conditions just better than normal tonight? I ran a channel scan and KGWN 5-1 is coming in even though my antenna is pointing the opposite direction and my building towers at least 18' over the antenna to the North. I've never gotten digital channels from Wyoming before.

Now if only an ABC station would run this power level and carry HD....

How good is comcast hdtv service. It looks likely I will be moving, and will lose my high ground in Castle Rock. If I stay with direct, doubt I will receive more than Chan 2 HDTV, with outside chance PBS, certainly no way NBC or CBS. So if I keep Direct, Ill get there satl but little else. However, areas I look at do have comcast. Thanks.

Originally posted by skyview
How good is comcast hdtv service. It looks likely I will be moving, and will lose my high ground in Castle Rock. If I stay with direct, doubt I will receive more than Chan 2 HDTV, with outside chance PBS, certainly no way NBC or CBS. So if I keep Direct, Ill get there satl but little else. However, areas I look at do have comcast. Thanks. They have a whole thread on Denver Comcast - check it out.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=293562

Hey Dennis, has any more "little birds" been talking to you?
Any updates?

The birds are silent.

FWIW, I sent a message to Donna Sanford at KRMA yesterday asking them to adjust their HD hours to either 5pm-11pm or 5:30pm to 11:30pm rather than the current 6pm-midnight...I really want to see the 3rd season of Smart Travels.

She sent a message back saying they'll see if they can figure out how to do that.

A few days ago I wrote to Jim Schoedler (engineering mgr) at KRMA asking the same thing and suggested they might use their new server to record Smart Travels and show it in the evening instead of some of the repeats that PBS sends out. No response.

If I'm real lucky my new HD TiVo will have a more sensitive tuner then the Hughes E86 I've been using and I will once again be able to get KRMA-DT. If that happens count me in as being very interested in seeing the 3rd season of Smart Travels.

I should package all my wacky trips which i've been shooting HD... Over 16,000' in the Peru Mts, -38 in Arctic Circle etc. I can call them Not-so-Smart Travels! ;)

Ernie,

I'd watch it! I'm sure it'd be alot more interesting than that Arctic Mission series DHDT has.

I'll have to have a party when they're all finished. Not 'til the end of the year. I'll invite you guys over. I'll also have to get a DVHS then too!

They will be shown at the ConExpo (Construction Equipment Expo in Vegas) They'll be presented by Caterpillar at the show. Nothin' more manly that seeing a 4 story high mining truck coming at 'ya in HD!

The following is from NEXT TUESDAYS BCC MEETING.

14.
#04-108231WR ( Waiver Request )

Applicant: LAKE CEDAR GROUP, LLC

Location: 21119 Cedar Lake Road (Section 4, Township 4 South, Range 70 West)
Map No: 107

Purpose: Waiver request for paving of Cedar Lake Road.

Case Manager: Danica Snyder

link: http://co.jefferson.co.us/ext/fast/commish/bcc.htm

Originally posted by santellavision

They will be shown at the ConExpo (Construction Equipment Expo in Vegas) They'll be presented by Caterpillar at the show. Nothin' more manly that seeing a 4 story high mining truck coming at 'ya in HD!
Is it true the DVD release will be titled "Real Men Eat Dirt"?
:D

And this means what?
They are applying to no longer have to pave the road

or

are applying so they can pave the road??????

does anyone know as of now if ft collins can recieve ota hd?
I have been out of this for 2 years and have recently decided to get a hd reciever.
but before I plunk down the $$ on a ota antenna I want to know if I can even get ota hd.
thanks

vypr,

There is a Ft. Collins DTV thread somewhere here on the local HDTV AVS. They are getting some HD from Cheyenne I believe. And they can get KWGN from down here in Denver too.

The Northern Colorado/SE Wyoming HD thread is located here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199726

I'm in Greeley and I can receive KGWN (CBS) out of Cheyenne, and KWGN and KDVR out of Denver. KGWN does not pass HD full time yet - just for special events like the Masters, Final Four, Super Bowl, etc.

You've got to be kidding right? KGWN has the ability to show some CBS network programming in HD, but then they don't show their Prime-time line up?

Mike I'm so sorry... I thought it was bad down here, that's insane!

hmm.
well first I gotta figure out whats wrong with my setup.
I have a 2 lnb oval dish (sat c kit otw) running my tivo (2 tuners)
and 2 other reg recievers.
that eats up all my cables. tried putting my 2x4 multi switch but as soon as I plug in my hd reciever to the mulit switch it kills my signal on my tivo.
so I may return this and keep waiting for hd to make more forward progress
maybe someday I'll see my hd set in action.

Originally posted by santellavision
You've got to be kidding right? KGWN has the ability to show some CBS network programming in HD, but then they don't show their Prime-time line up?

Mike I'm so sorry... I thought it was bad down here, that's insane!

Exactly right. KGWN can't afford an HD server, so only "live" stuff gets carried in HD. And they don't seem willing to try any creative approaches to solve that problem. Originally they claimed they would be "fully HDTV" by the end of 2002.

Also, is anyone else having problems with KBDI-DT? My receiver can't seem to decide if they are mapping to 12-1,2,3 or not, and I only get a blank screen.

This also seems to create problems with any existing timer event on my E* 6000. I've noticed that whenever something in the local setup changes (either by me, or by the stations), my timer events, especially for local DTV channels, don't work right! The 6000 either tunes the wrong station, drops out of HD mode (I have a W-VHS), or something else goes wrong.

Mark

Originally posted by santellavision
You've got to be kidding right? KGWN has the ability to show some CBS network programming in HD, but then they don't show their Prime-time line up?

Mike I'm so sorry... I thought it was bad down here, that's insane!

Yeah. You'd think they could get a TIVO or something wouldn't you. I wish they'd at least pass HD during the "east coast time" instead of showing a stretched SD signal during mountain time.:rolleyes:

I'm watching the Masters in HD right now in KGWN and it looks great. It's a shame it's not full time.

12-2 and 12-3 have been messed up since Saturday A.M. 12-3 says video lock error and has color bars. I guess no one who works for KBDI has a HD receiver at home to monitor the broadcasts. :) Maybe one of us can go up up to squaw mt. and brush off their satellite dish. :D

Originally posted by vypr2002
hmm.
well first I gotta figure out whats wrong with my setup.
I have a 2 lnb oval dish (sat c kit otw) running my tivo (2 tuners)
and 2 other reg recievers.
that eats up all my cables. tried putting my 2x4 multi switch but as soon as I plug in my hd reciever to the mulit switch it kills my signal on my tivo.
so I may return this and keep waiting for hd to make more forward progress
maybe someday I'll see my hd set in action.
A 2x4 multiswitch doesn't sound right for a dual-LNB dish. I would think you'd need a 4x4 or 5x4 (if you want to diplex your OTA signal onto the satellite cable). Since you already have TiVo, you might want to look into picking up a HD TiVo (expected to start shipping tomorrow :D ) as well.

Originally posted by mknoebel
I'm watching the Masters in HD right now in KGWN and it looks great. It's a shame it's not full time.
I watched the last couple hours of the Masters today (Sunday) and really enjoyed the HD broadcast. I watched most of it on DirecTV's CBS-HD West Coast feed. One thing I liked was that they didn't have network bugs, logos or other graphics up on the screen for most of the time. It was nice to watch just the image.

weldon,
did you have to do anything out of the ordinary to be able to recieve the cbs-hd west coast feed?
I asked a dtv rep about the availability and they said nope I cant get it.
I thought I had read on their site that I could so I got a hd reciever.

So wasn't The Patriot supposed to be in HD? I just looked once and KCNC was broadcasting it in SD.

Nothing really extraordinary. You should probably ask for the "special projects" group. This thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=347953) goes into all the details.

Article in the Denver Business Journal about Tower delay..
http://denver.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2004/04/12/story8.html

I'm confused....the article says:
".....the stations were within weeks of breaking ground when Jefferson County District Court Judge Brooke Jackson halted the work at the end of March -- adding another year to the expected completion date."

Then later says:
"The latest wrinkle probably will mean a 60- to 90-day delay."

Which is it...1 year or 90 days? (I fear I already know this answer though).

Originally posted by Geof

Which is it...1 year or 90 days? (I fear I already know this answer though).


This just in from KMGH--it is 90 days. We'll be broadcasting full power HDTV from our new tower shortly.
:D

My HDTivo will be here by the end of this week or the first of next (#29!) so I want to sell my trusty DTC100 and my Replay 5160 -- the one with 160 recordable and the commercial advance feature.

Both are in perfect working and cosmetic condition, and of course I have the remotes and the manuals.

I figure this forum is the best place to start, even if it is the wrong place to post the offer.

First $350 takes the pair. Or I might split them up. I'll deliver in metro Denver and the buyer can send me a check once the units are fired up and working.

PM if interested! Thanks!

Originally posted by gkanders

This just in from KMGH--it is 90 days. We'll be broadcasting full power HDTV from our new tower shortly.
:D ROFLMAO...(I wish I'd thought of that).

Originally posted by MRinDenver
My HDTivo will be here by the end of this week or the first of next (#29!) so I want to sell my trusty DTC100 and my Replay 5160 -- the one with 160 recordable and the commercial advance feature. Doah!
I've still got to wait for the [hopefully] next shipment (at 244)!
But, how come you haven't been crying and whining in the TiVo forum:D

Yeah, I've followed the TiVo board and read most of the incessant complaining.

Geez, you'd think from some of the the rants that getting the HDTiVo by a specific date will enhance the size of a certain body part.

Or that a vendor not making a delivery date that is out of his control might cause that part to fall off.

Maybe I'm just too old not to believe that shipping dates are always fluid; it will get here when it gets here. And I won't be taking off work to do the immediate installation. It will have to wait for the next weekend.

It is only TV afterall! That said, it is better to be #29 than #244!

Some of those posts were/are comical....
I didn't think 244 was too bad but I guess you (or David) won't want to trade me :)

No thanks. I'll keep my #79 spot :D

Originally posted by dr_mal
No thanks. I'll keep my #79 spot :D I would've bet on that. ;)
But look at what you started in that forum - you should repent and swap with me :) :) ;)

I didn't mean to completely hijack the thread -- I'm glad, though, that I'm not the only one bothered by bad grammar/spelling online.

Back to Denver HDTV for a moment: have you guys seen this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=389693 ? It's about KUSA's apparently imminent launch of HD shots from Sky9. As an added bonus, you'll be able to see the handprints my kids have put all over my TV :)

I can give you some windex if need be ;)

Seriously, whatever KUSA choses to do or not do is fine with me....I cannot get their DT signal nor could I stomach their self promotion if I could.

Originally posted by gkanders

This just in from KMGH--it is 90 days. We'll be broadcasting full power HDTV from our new tower shortly.
:D

That would be consistent with their claim they would be on the air this spring so there would be no reason to move their coat hanger antenna. Let's see, how many days are left in the spring, 90 is about right???

In the meantime though, is KMGH still on the air??? It doesn't show up on my receivers. I was under the impression they had quit broadcasting until that new tower was completed.

Added Edit
Oh, BTW, will those new HD Recorders be able to record KMGH from here in Boulder??

Sure will, with a really long cable run!

Jeff

A small bit of good news for Colorado HDTV fans... KDVR appears to now be broadcasting in 720p! Of course there is currently no sound whatsoever, but we'll take our good news one small piece at a time. ;)

No sound on my Samsung TS-360, but there's sound on my Hughes E86. Seems to be similar to the problems experienced earlier by KWGN.

I'm also using a Samsung 360, and the audio options show up as "Spanish Dolby Digital" and "German Dolby Digital" with no sound on either track. Changing the audio output to PCM fixes the sound, but freezes the picture. Very strange.

I'm getting sound from the Hughes and the Zenith!! And the Zenith shows that it is 720p!

KDVR has no sound at all on my RCA ...local programming (news) looks really lousy... washed-out, too bright, with lots of jitter. Commercials look a bit better.

The Superbowl in January 2005 will look great in HD on KDVR Fox 31, however, the Detroit Superbowl in January of 2006 will be on good ole toy transmitter KMGH.

WOOHOO!

We all have been told that McGraw Hill will build a tower shortly...NOT or negotiate a contract with Comcast shortly... NOT. Cindy, where are you when we need you?

Don

Originally posted by bikenski
A small bit of good news for Colorado HDTV fans... KDVR appears to now be broadcasting in 720p! Of course there is currently no sound whatsoever, but we'll take our good news one small piece at a time. ;)
A small thing, but I also noticed that they started re-mapping the channel id to 31-1 and put some dummy info in the program guide.

On my MYHD-120, KDVR also is without sound. I guess the lip-synch fix broke their equipment.

Rgds,

JohnW

It looks like KDVR has gotten their new equipment installed and are in the process of getting the kinks out. I'd hope KDVR Engineering is monitoring this thread - I do believe KCNC and KWGN folks greatly benefited from our feedback and we certainly benefited from their efforts to get the bugs worked out. Maybe with the new gear KDVR can once and for all rid themselves of the dreaded lipsync problems.

Originally posted by Geof
Maybe with the new gear KDVR can once and for all rid themselves of the dreaded lipsync problems. Yeah - By ridding themselves of audio altogether! :D

Ah...I was wondering why I couldn't tune to KDVR with my hipix cards and 921... frozen picture and no audio on both.

Skip - are you monitoring this thread still?

Originally posted by RonAuger
Yeah - By ridding themselves of audio altogether! :D Crude but effective. :)

Time to take lipreading 101.;)

Err, I can already lipread a lot of the words on Deadwood....:D

Veering a little bit Off Topic....it seems there are a few of us (at least 4 that I know of) who've ordered the HD TiVo. While I'm looking forward to this capability it comes with some (small) expense for me. Since we are still basically low power around here (till God knows when) the only way some of us will be able to record local stations on our new HD TiVo's (w/no NTSC tuner) will be to get the local channels from DirecTv. I looked into buying a SD TiVo but it's far cheaper to just pay the $3/mo fee to DirecTv for locals. Are any of you future HD TiVo owners going to start getting locals from DirecTv or do you already get them or am I missing something?

Edit: To claify, the only real NTSC locals I need to record would be KRMA (unless my new TiVo picks up KRMA-DT) and Ch 20.
KMGH and KUSA can go to hell.

I get the locals from D*. I've been using the DirecTiVos for years now, so I've needed them for that purpose. Once I get my pre-ordered HD TiVo, I'll need to keep the locals just for UPN. I have the same feelings on KMGH.

Don't the DirecTiVo's have NTSC tuners?

Right now I get almost perrrrfect reception OTA since I have a helluva good LOS to Lookout (where no ATSC antenna tower will be placed before its time). I am thinking the local PQ over DirecTv will be a step down. Yes/No?

The DirecTiVos only have DirecTV tuners in them. No OTA at all. The HD TiVos will have OTA ATSC and HD DirecTV tuners in them. I thought I'd be able to save a few bucks a month and ditch the locals, but darnit, I've gotta see Enterprise through until it gets cancelled. Now if Enterprise doesn't last the season, then I'll go ahead and cancel the locals.

And yes, locals over DirecTV are compressed too much and look pretty bad blown up on a decent-size TV. But since the HD TiVo won't have NTSC tuners, if you want the locals you can't get digitally, you've gotta go that route.

Thanks Dave. I hadn't really studied the DirecTiVo's enough to know they don't have NTSC tuners. Who would've guessed.

And yes, Enterprise is about the only reason I have as well. With so many repeats I never know when a new episode is on. I am tired of chasing it and thought that the TiVo Season Pass would be the way to go. That said, this whole "expanse" theme really blows (IMO).

To be honest I'd also setup a Season Pass for This Old House on KRMA (and probably New Yankee Workshop). I quit trying to follow it since KRMA regularly yanks it around. Hopefully I'll be able to get KRMA-DT again and if that's the case, and Enterprise gets canceled, then I'll save the $3/mo. In fact I may wait until next season before I add locals to my DirecTv account. Thankfully the one network (and only) that I do watch I can get OTA in HD.

Are you sure the HD TiVo is only ATSC? The 921 tuner handles both ATSC & NTSC, but can only record the ATSC.

My only wish would be that the new HD-Tivo could record another source, like cable or BEV. Then I wouldn't have to worry about the tower.

Originally posted by David_Levin
Are you sure the HD TiVo is only ATSC? The 921 tuner handles both ATSC & NTSC, but can only record the ATSC. There is nothing in the HD TiVo manual about NTSC so yes, it's seems a sure bet that it doesn't do it.

Originally posted by David_Levin
Are you sure the HD TiVo is only ATSC?
Yes.

I am planning on getting one of these HDTivo's as well when they become available. I haven't pre-ordered anything.

I was looking at a picture somewhere that had a view of the back of this unit. On the back there is a huge exhaust port for a fan. I wonder how loud this thing is going to be? I currently have an Sony HD-100 that is really loud, it has been moved to the back of the TV on the floor to try and hide the noise.

I can't wait for one of you pre-order guys get it and give us the run down on how it works on our low power HDTV stations here.

Later
Joe

Since I've also pre-ordered the HD-Tivo through VE, I'm a little concerned/worried about the internal ATSC tuner's sensitivity...especially since it will split the signal into two tuners.

I currently use a MYHD-120, which in and of itself has a great tuner, plus a CM4228 with the CM7775 amp. All this to get five stations less than 15 miles from my house.

I only hope that at THE LEAST, I can keep the same amount of reception, which for KCNC borders on receptive...maybe one of you early-early-adopters (my pre-order didn't go in until mid-March) can report back about the tuner's capabilities when you get one (next month? Aug?)

Rgds,

JohnW

I'm sure we'll know about the ATSC tuner soon enough after it's release (whenever that be), although I share your concerns. So many factors go into tuner design that we shouldn't draw any conclusions about its splitting the ATSC signal to feed two tuners. I will be significantly disappointed if it doesn't outperform my Hughes E86. That said there is only so much we can expect so holding ground with some of the better ATSC tuners is a realistic expectation in my mind - which doesn't necessarily mean squat in the real world :)

Nonetheless welcome to the list...you're the 5th person I know on the list...methinks they're going to sell a lot of these......

As to the fan, I've wondered about the noise myself....I should ask Aaron (in the Tivo Community Value Electronics demo thread) if he thought it was loud...

To be honest I'd also setup a Season Pass for This Old House on KRMA (and probably New Yankee Workshop).OT: Norm kills me... I find it funny that he can build a $20 flowerbox, but he has to have $200,000 worth of laser power tools to do it! ;)

Originally posted by santellavision
OT: Norm kills me... I find it funny that he can build a $20 flowerbox, but he has to have $200,000 worth of laser power tools to do it! ;) It's amazing what you can do when you've got a company like Porter Cable giving you every tool they make (and sometimes more than one of everything - how many routers does that guy have??). I've bought enough of their stuff but no laser power stuff....missed the boat again I did :)

I haven't found the fan in any of my 3 TiVos to be a distraction. In an absolutely quiet room, I can hear the hard drive chugging away over the fan. When I'm watching TV, though, the room is never absolutely quiet :)

Originally posted by dr_mal
When I'm watching TV, though, the room is never absolutely quiet :)

Unless you're watching KDVR-DT :D

Hello all, I'm moving up to Denver (DTC area) at the end of the month, so I'm doing some research on the HD scene. I think I'll be going the cable route so I can ditch my Samsung 160 and antenna.

The Comcast website is a little vague, can anyone tell me how much extra the HD package costs? They list it as $55.44, but surely that includes basic also. Maybe someone with "the works" (internet, HD, all movies) could just give me an idea of their monthly bill.

I found the Denver DTV info site which showed the channels available. Not too shabby, I guess I can live without Discovery and trade HDNet for InHD. All HD locals without an antenna will be nice, as I've been living in the dark ages in Colorado Springs with only one (CBS).

Jeremy

Edit - Upon further inspection I see that ABC HD is not available on Comcast. Any word on that?

Originally posted by Geof
And yes, Enterprise is about the only reason I have as well. With so many repeats I never know when a new episode is on. The mid-season cliff hanger "Azati Prime" is being repeat on Sat. 7PM and Sun. 6PM with the conclusion to it (6 new episodes) starting Wed.
(Did I just expose my geekiness!?)

Eh-hm. Reminder: Detriot and Nashville, a very exciting series, is on ESPNHD tonight at 5:30PM. For lack of Avs in HD, this will do. We'll probably get another chance at HD Avs WHEN they get to the semi-finals.
(There, that's better.)

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
Hello all, I'm moving up to Denver (DTC area) at the end of the month, so I'm doing some research on the HD scene. I think I'll be going the cable route so I can ditch my Samsung 160 and antenna.

The Comcast website is a little vague, can anyone tell me how much extra the HD package costs? They list it as $55.44, but surely that includes basic also. Maybe someone with "the works" (internet, HD, all movies) could just give me an idea of their monthly bill.

I found the Denver DTV info site which showed the channels available. Not too shabby, I guess I can live without Discovery and trade HDNet for InHD. All HD locals without an antenna will be nice, as I've been living in the dark ages in Colorado Springs with only one (CBS).

Jeremy

Edit - Upon further inspection I see that ABC HD is not available on Comcast. Any word on that?

Check out the Denver Comcast thread, all of your questions are answered there. Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=293562&perpage=20&pagenumber=21)

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
The Comcast website is a little vague, can anyone tell me how much extra the HD package costs? They list it as $55.44, but surely that includes basic also. Maybe someone with "the works" (internet, HD, all movies) could just give me an idea of their monthly bill.

I found the Denver DTV info site which showed the channels available. Not too shabby, I guess I can live without Discovery and trade HDNet for InHD. All HD locals without an antenna will be nice, as I've been living in the dark ages in Colorado Springs with only one (CBS).

Upon further inspection I see that ABC HD is not available on Comcast. Any word on that?

You will quickly find by reading this (and other threads) that KMGH/ABC is doing as little as possible to provide HD in the Denver area. Both they and Comcast say they are working to a solution, but won't provide a date, so it could be tomorrow or next year.
As far as the cost, you can get the HD package for as little as about $25 - 13.95 for basic service plus 9.95 for the box. The amount you saw was for at the lowest digital cable package plus a 4.95 box rental. Comcast cannot require that you get this full package - if you want, you can get the bare bones version. My total bill is just about $100 - you get $10 off the internet if you get both cable and internet.

So I guess we are getting our HD Tivo's from Sound Track on May 3rd, that's last I heard.

It also looks like the nuggets play off's against MN will be HD via TNT on Sunday April 18th at 7:30PM. Hopefully DirecTV will cary it.

FYI, I bought a GR-HD1 consumer HD camcorder if anyone needs anything recorded. I've been doing weddings for the past 6 years.

My HD-TIVO is on preorder from Soundtrack but as well, I am finally installing a Channelmaster antenna I ordered earlier from SolidSignal. I have been out of the loop for awhile but what's the latest on HD OTA here.
Is KPXC channel 59 broadcasting now on DTV?
Have any moved to lookout mountain yet and added higher power or when will that be happening?
Also, is KTVD and KMGH broadcasting yet?
If there is a link where I can check for the latest I'd love to use that.

Thanks for the Trek update Ron. Nice to know the plan.
And thanks for the fan info Dave....nice to know it won't be that bad.

As to KMGH....yes they're broadcasting at very low power: You need to be geographically blessed to receive it. No, KTVD is not broadcasting digitally. Neither have any plans to do anything different until the Lookout tower is completed. Speaking of Lookout, KDVR and KWGN are the only two broadcasting at moderately decent power levels. From there the news gets worse: Progress on the tower has been halted by a JeffCo Judge until Jefferson County can listen to hours more testimony from SCARE. Current estimates range anywhere from a 60 day to 1 year delay. That means no high power broadcasts from KCNC, KMGH, KUSA and KTVD this year and most likely well into 2005 and possibly not until 2006. KRMA is "on track" with their Morrison efforts and will hopefully be doing something from there late this year. Now, I bet you're sorry you asked.....sigh......

Originally posted by markwco

If there is a link where I can check for the latest I'd love to use that.

The Denver DTV Info site provides a good synopsis. See it Here (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/denverdtv.htm) .

What is the current status of KDVR's audio for those of you with OTA boxes? Comcast's HD channel is also silent. The news didn't look any better, but the prime time episode of The Simpsons did.

Well earlier today it was working on Comcast but not on my Dish 6000 OTA tuner. Now the opposite is true.

On my Mitsu OTA tuner it's worked all along.

Originally posted by gakon
What is the current status of KDVR's audio for those of you with OTA boxes? Comcast's HD channel is also silent. The news didn't look any better, but the prime time episode of The Simpsons did. KDVR audio has been working for me all week; I have a Samsung SIR-T151 OTA receiver. I just use the normal stereo outputs - maybe this is a DD5.1 problem?

I agree, KDVR-DT news does not look any better than before; considerably worse than KWGN-DT and KCNC-DT. OTOH, it sure looks a lot better than KMGH-DT up here in Boulder.

Just saw this in the Sentinel & Transcript Newspapers online.


click on the link to the story called "County board may reconsider towers"
Link (http://www.jeffconews.com/)


According to the court ruling, the county will not need to repeat the entire lengthy hearing process. However, Commissioner Rick Sheehan said the reconsideration of a single issue could force the board to undo its decision.

"I suppose we may have to vote down the whole darn thing," Sheehan said.

-Wabisabi

If the tower decision is reversed, channels 4, 7, 9 and 20 will need to find a new home for their digital and analog broadcast signals.
Sigh. When are they going to bother getting their facts straight? The analog signals can stay on Lookout forever if this decision is reversed. And more likely than not, the existing towers will broadcast digital when analog's turned off.

[edit: I e-mailed the author -- let's see if he responds]

Actually, it might not be a bad idea to soon find another place to transmit the analog (say off of a downtown building) and use the Lookout towers for the DTV signal. It might aid the public awareness of the transition.

Frankly it would not surprise me if this so called "speedbump" turned out to be the death of LCG2. Given past history that is what I'm expecting (more or less) although I guess I wouldn't be totally shocked if this is just a mere speedbump. We just don't know. John (jm) is correct though - it's clear that the LCG2 folks don't think they need us because we are getting no information from them: The only time they tell us anything is when they want something. This whole ugly mess is just a total embarrasment for the State of Colorado.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Actually, it might not be a bad idea to soon find another place to transmit the analog (say off of a downtown building) and use the Lookout towers for the DTV signal. It might aid the public awareness of the transition. The reason SCARE thinks that the broadcasters can't broadcast digital from their existing facilities on Lookout is because the County sided with SCARE during the KWGN permitting process and does NOT consider analog TV to be the same service as Digital TV. That was being challenged in Court the last we heard. IF this is upheld (or was upheld) then there is no chance that they can use their existing facilities to broadcast digital TV without going thru the same lengthy permitting process which, clearly, would be denied in the end. OTOH, if the Courts reject (or have rejected) the same service argument then the broadcasters could convert their analog facilities to digital. This may have already been decided - does anyone know the outcome or the latest status on this suit??

Originally posted by Geof
The reason SCARE thinks that the broadcasters can't broadcast digital from their existing facilities on Lookout is because the County sided with SCARE during the KWGN permitting process and does NOT consider analog TV to be the same service as Digital TV. That was being challenged in Court the last we heard. IF this is upheld (or was upheld) then there is no chance that they can use their existing facilities to broadcast digital TV without going thru the same lengthy permitting process which, clearly, would be denied in the end. OTOH, if the Courts reject (or have rejected) the same service argument then the broadcasters could convert their analog facilities to digital. This may have already been decided - does anyone know the outcome or the latest status on this suit??
The latest I remember on this was that the stations wouldn't need to ask the county for permission to switch to digital broadcasting from their existing towers since they wouldn't be modifying the towers at all. If they wanted to add a digital transmitter to a tower, they'd need a permit. AFAIK, they don't need a permit to change the equipment inside their support building, as long as they don't physically change what's on the tower.

It's not pretty; there'd be lawsuits flying, but I understand it would work and be legal.

Of course, sCARE has their county people saying that's not allowed, and LCG has their county people saying it's allowed, so who knows.

Originally posted by dr_mal
The latest I remember on this was that the stations wouldn't need to ask the county for permission to switch to digital broadcasting from their existing towers since they wouldn't be modifying the towers at all. If they wanted to add a digital transmitter to a tower, they'd need a permit. AFAIK, they don't need a permit to change the equipment inside their support building, as long as they don't physically change what's on the tower.
Well that's the way the stations see it but it is not the way SCARE sees it. And unfortunately unless the same service ruling gets overturned it's not the way JeffCo or the Courts would see it. You "bet your bippy" there'd be lawsuits...I just wouldn't hold my breath on the stations winning....and in the interim we'd all lose out....again......

Originally posted by Geof
Well that's the way the stations see it but it is not the way SCARE sees it. And unfortunately unless the same service ruling gets overturned it's not the way JeffCo or the Courts would see it. You "bet your bippy" there'd be lawsuits...I just wouldn't hold my breath on the stations winning....and in the interim we'd all lose out....again......
Maybe I'm hopelessly optimistic, but I wouldn't think the whole same service definition would come into play. KWGN wanted the same service ruling so they could modify their tower by adding a digital transmitter. Since the other stations don't need county permission to change equipment in their building, I'm holding out hope that they could pull it off.

Now if they did that, I'd fully expect a sCARE lawsuit, but who would they sue? The county for not stopping someone from replacing equipment in a building? The stations for violating county law? (I'd guess the county would have to be the one to file that suit, if they wanted to).

Then again, I was the one last summer who was CERTAIN the HD TiVos would ship by Christmas :rolleyes:

Apologies up front for an HDTV noob question, but I didn't want to go through all 383 pages (2.5yrs worth of posts). I did read the last 5-6 pages, and got enough info to be hot under the collar at the CARE folks. Is it basically a "Not in my backyard" kinda thing? I recently moved back in state and now taking up residence in Highlands Ranch. I'm one of the lucky ones in HR that can be served by Qwest VDSL, but they don't have HDTV.

I am finishing my basement and hope to have it all done by June, at which time I will have a front projector as the display. With all the aforementioned hassles, is it even possible to pick up the local ABC/CBS/NBC stations here? According to antennaweb.org, I live about 17 miles from the transmitters. It would really be great to add HDTV to the theater, on a 100" diagonal screen. :)

Here's the noob question...if it is possible to get all the locals, what sort of equipment do I need to get? I would assume I need some sort of HDTV STB, and possibly an antenna. Any recommendations would be great. Since I will have a scaler, the video signal will go there and the audio will go digital coax/fiber to my AVR.

Thanks for any help you can provide. I'll be sure to keep up with this thread from here on out.

Well, the stations are grandfathered in for good old NTSC. I'm fairly confident SCARE would make the argument that if the type of service changes then they are no longer grandfathered in. I see the argument thusly: (and I'm not saying I buy this argument) if they are no longer transmitting NTSC then the type of service has changed for which they must have new permits.

They won that argument during the KWGN permitting process: KWGN could not modify their tower because they were (quote) "changing the type of service" they wished to broadcast. If JeffCo (or the Courts) considered ATSC and NTSC the same type of service then KWGN could have done as they planned.

Personally I do not think the stations have a leg to stand on unless the type of service issue was (or will be) overturned in the Courts. Keep in mind that we've heard a lot of arrogant cocky confident talk from various LCG stations and they spew a good stream but they are sometimes too arrogant, cocky and confident...

Originally posted by dr_mal
Maybe I'm hopelessly optimistic, but I wouldn't think the whole same service definition would come into play. KWGN wanted the same service ruling so they could modify their tower by adding a digital transmitter. Since the other stations don't need county permission to change equipment in their building, I'm holding out hope that they could pull it off.


I agree with you on this one (although I am not optimistic enough to think the stations have the b@lls to do it). I seriously think if the stations got permission from the FCC to use their current carrier frequency with DTV modulation, and switched their analog transmission to the UHF assigned frequency and broadcast it from the top of the Republic Building I really doubt there is a darn thing that the LCG or anyone else could do about it. I would also bet if needed, the FCC would even step in and back such a move and over-ride and local rulings. Of course, I see that as a desperate move, and I also don't think the stations would be willing to do it any time soon. You have to admit though, if everyone watching analog suddenly had to turn their antennas toward downtown, it would sure get the attention of the public in a hurry. I am guessing we are still a year or so away from the stations seriously considering such a move though, since there would have to be substantial penetration of HD sets in the market to justify it. I don't believe there are enough DTV capable sets out there just yet.

sCARE is beyond NIMBY. They're BANANAs (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything). The propoganda they're exposing residents of Lookout Mountain to is frightening in scope and scale. They've literally got people terrified to raise their kids anywhere near Lookout. They're despicable. But enough about them :)

If you go to denverdtv.info, you'll find links to maps that show what real people, with real receivers, are able to receive in terms of OTA HDTV. I think there are people in Highlands Ranch who are able to get KMGH-DT. So you're in about the best spot. You shouldn't have any problem getting the rest of the local stations (KBDI, KRMA, KCNC, KUSA, KWGN, and KDVR). You'll need a good rooftop antenna. I had Alpine Electronics install a big ol' Winegard UHF antenna on my roof about a year ago. Well worth the $260 or so (installed) price I paid.

You'll also need a HD STB. Both DirecTV and Dish Network sell models that will get you OTA signals as well as satellite HD. DirecTV is about to ship (current estimates are "next week") their HR10-250 which is their HD TiVo. I'd personally recommend that route. If you want to go Dish, they've also got a HD PVR, the Dish 921. It only has one OTA tuner compared to D*'s two, so if you have any conflicts with OTA programs, D*'s the way to go. Plus TiVo is the best in class PVR software.

If you don't want to spend $1000 for the HD receiver, you could also call up Comcast and see what kind of HD they can do for you. I think you can rent a HD Cable box for around $10/month. You won't get KMGH-HD or KWGN-HD through Comcast at this point in time, though.

Feel free to ask questions -- that's what we're here for! And we usually don't bite :)

Originally posted by Geof
Well, the stations are grandfathered in for good old NTSC. I'm fairly confident SCARE would make the argument that if the type of service changes then they are no longer grandfathered in. I see the argument thusly: (and I'm not saying I buy this argument) if they are no longer transmitting NTSC then the type of service has changed for which they must have new permits.
Let's play what if:

What if - the stations changed out equipment in their little buildings and started broadcasting a digital signal from the current transmitter/tower setup.

sCARE goes to the county and informs them that the stations aren't in compliance with their grandfather status on Lookout.

Does JeffCo then do anything? If you remember the Morrison hearings, it seems like the current channel 20 tower is out of compliance with its zoning and has been for years now.

Granted, several high-profile towers might get JeffCo's attention, but would they be politically motivated enough to, in effect, turn off all high power HDTV in Denver (since this action could only come once the stations are up there at full power)? Wouldn't the FCC have to step in at that point?

Well we've bantered this around enough to understand each other's points (and you've made some good points). Like I said, I am not necessarily buying into those arguments I proposed. That said, if SCARE is confident that the existing towers cannot be re-tasked for ATSC then they must have a basis for that position. Certainly the stations have a basis for their position, and as jm points out, the FCC is the wild-card that could end the dispute.

Regardless, I do not believe that the stations can re-task their existing setups for ATSC without a stiff fight from SCARE and I remain dubious that the stations could win such a fight. One thing is clear, it's not going to be pretty and it's probably not going to be expeditious.

Originally posted by Geof
Well we've bantered this around enough to understand each other's points (and you've made some good points).

<snip>

One thing is clear, it's not going to be pretty and it's probably not going to be expeditious.
Absolutely 100% agreed.

So nice to see the cycle cycling again. :)

sCARE has done pretty well so far, but I have to believe that as HDTV sales take off the politics are eventually going to turn against them. Compared to a year ago, there is already orders-of-magnitude more interest and awareness of HDTV among the general public.

We'll see.

Originally posted by Geof
.....One thing is clear, it's not going to be pretty and it's probably not going to be expeditious.
100% agreed as well, which is why I have become totally convinced that if you want to watch network HDTV, your best bet is to invest in alternatives to OTA and forget waiting for OTA HD in this area. I just believe we will be well past the 2006 deadline before we see any serious full power HD in this area, and I got tired of waiting. I think it is every man (woman) for him (her) self at this point. You go do what you need to do be it invest in a massive outdoor antenna or 'move' north of the border, or get and EE degree and put in a big dish and become friends with a station engineer who will buy you the right equipment. Of course it helps if you are 'independently wealthy'. I think we are waisting our time waiting for the station here. And as Geof mentioned earlier, they sure don't seem to 'need' us any more, so I think its time we figure out we don't need them either. Just my $0.02.

Originally posted by markdl
So nice to see the cycle cycling again. :)

Really, didn't we cover all this about three years and about 500 pages ago??

As Yogi Berra once said, "It's like deja vu all over again!"
:rolleyes:

All-
Sorry to start the cycle over again...hope you don't mind. :D

dr_mal-
Thanks for your help. I love the BANANAs comment. Seems as though there are those folks out there who make it rough for the rest of us.

I'll check out Alpine Electronics and see what they can do. I will also have to check on the covenants in our subdivision, as I'd hate to "offend" someone with an antenna. How big is the one you had installed? I don't need to go with a STB that allows satellite reception, as I'm getting what could be called "digital cable" from Qwest, as part of their VDSL package. But having the PVR option is a neat idea. I would assume it records in hi-def? Are there any other recommendations for cheaper STB options?

Originally posted by oxothuk
sCARE has done pretty well so far, but I have to believe that as HDTV sales take off the politics are eventually going to turn against them. Compared to a year ago, there is already orders-of-magnitude more interest and awareness of HDTV among the general public.

We'll see.

It wont make any difference. Such a small percentage of people use/rely on OTA transmissions and those who do would be the ones least likely to care about H/DTV anyway. Obviously theres a reason why millions and millions of HDTV's have been sold nationwide in the last few years but yet only a few hundred thousand tuners have been sold to go along with them. Theres no shortage of stations doing the right thing in the biggest markets in the country yet still "nobody" cared enough to tune in even if they had bought the tv.

Now with cable doing HD, OTA H/DTV will only start to mean something perhaps to the masses when in a few years they buy a new 13"-19" portable to replace the one in the kitchen and it so happens to have a digital OTA tuner built in as S.O.P.

Originally posted by DP1
It wont make any difference. Such a small percentage of people use/rely on OTA transmissions and those who do would be the ones least likely to care about H/DTV anyway. Pure OTA, I agree. But there are lots of satellite subscribers out there, and I think it will be a long time (if ever) before D* and E* have enough bandwidth to waste on HD locals. Yes, I know you can a waiver for the O&O's, but that only covers CBS and Fox. This is where I see the pressure coming from.

Originally posted by oxothuk
Pure OTA, I agree. But there are lots of satellite subscribers out there, and I think it will be a long time (if ever) before D* and E* have enough bandwidth to waste on HD locals. Yes, I know you can a waiver for the O&O's, but that only covers CBS and Fox. This is where I see the pressure coming from.

Perhaps. Though I think the DBS co's will start offering HD Locals in a fairly reasonable timeframe. Lets face it, they're going to have to because people just flat dont want to dick around with antennas whether it's for an OTA only home or even one that otherwise has or would consider going with DBS.

If adding a simple antenna were the solution for DBS subscribers who wouldnt otherwise inherently have their locals on the system, there wouldnt be any cause for the DBS co's to be in the process of having virtually every SD local channel in the country on their bird's. Some 1000 channels strong.

A concept too, btw, that people probably thought could never be done 5 years ago. Course it had to be done for those companies to keep growing. Sux to be them though when just about the time they got the SD gig done, it's a whole new world out there. And gonna be hard to keep stealing away cable customers, especially those cable customers that already have HD, if the DBS co's cant offer the locals in HD without an antenna.

The "beauty" of it though is not alot of this matters for prolly another 5 years. Bout the same amount of time it'll prolly take to get this tower mess done after pissing away the last 5 years.

Originally posted by DP1

If adding a simple antenna were the solution for DBS subscribers who wouldnt otherwise inherently have their locals on the system, there wouldnt be any cause for the DBS co's to be in the process of having virtually every SD local channel in the country on their bird's. Some 1000 channels strong. I looked on the D* website and one of their FAQ's said they were currently at 300 locals. I'm sure they will expand that some, but I doubt they'll every get anywhere near 1000. They have to be near the point of diminishing returns already.

Of course, this is all an artifact of stupid laws put in at the behest of the local broadcasters.

I dont know how many they have up currently I was just going by the fact that they claim to want all 210 DMA's up eventually and I was averaging it out to 5 channels per DMA. Some of the biggest markets of course have double digit channels on the DBS co's now and I suppose some of the smallest DMA's will only have a very few each.

Anyway, a ton of channels no matter how you slice it.

I will also have to check on the covenants in our subdivision, as I'd hate to "offend" someone with an antenna.jhawk, The FCC covers you. You are allowed to put up an antenna or DBS dish anywhere you want on your property without HOA approval... It's the law!

Check out the denverdtv.info website for links to the FCC laws.

The "beauty" of it though is not alot of this matters for prolly another 5 years. Bout the same amount of time it'll prolly take to get this tower mess done after pissing away the last 5 years.

DP1, that is one "beaut" of a statement. Unfortunately, I am have arrived at the same conclusion: 2010 for full power OTA ATSC unless there is a non-tower change from NTSC to ATSC. Cycle, cycle.

You have a valid point, JM, that everything is available one way or another. I'd consider becoming a resident of Canada, however, I'm not willing to pay for the privilege of getting one additional network which is missing only because of the antics of a certain toy transmitter facility. I don't watch ABC and I don't miss it (except on a certain evening early in the week in the fall). And with all the Fox HD games on Sunday Ticket, I'm sure not abandoning D*.

Don

Anyone remember Fred's name for the sCARE people that he introduced during the hearings? NOPEs - Not On Planet Earth!

That still makes me laugh. :)

This is definitely OT for this thread... but I had to share my victory with folks who might apreciate it... I upgraded my 30hr TiVo to 120hrs with a new hard-drive today... and it still works!... and I didn't electrocute myself on the open power supply!

Anyone else do this to their TiVo?

cheers!

I am finishing my basement and hope to have it all done by June, at which time I will have a front projector as the display. With all the aforementioned hassles, is it even possible to pick up the local ABC/CBS/NBC stations here? According to antennaweb.org, I live about 17 miles from the transmitters. It would really be great to add HDTV to the theater, on a 100" diagonal screen. Here's the noob question...if it is possible to get all the locals, what sort of equipment do I need to get? I would assume I need some sort of HDTV STB, and possibly an antenna. Any recommendations would be great. Since I will have a scaler, the video signal will go there and the audio will go digital coax/fiber to my AVR.
Jhawk92.

Yes, it is possible to get the over the air HDTV locals in Highlands Ranch. You probably have a better chance here than up north. I live in Westridge and have a line of site downtown. I can get all the HDTV channels, even ABC (most of the time at least). What you need is an OTA (Over the Air) HDTV receiver. You can get a D* HDTV receiver (I will have mine ( Sony HD100) for sale as I preordered a Tivo D* HDTV - Email me if interested) that also allows for OTA HDTV reception. You can also buy an OTA receiver that does just that. Next you will need a antenna. I use a 80" Radio Shack antenna that is in my attic. Next you need a LOT of patience and a wife that can tell you the signal strength with a radio while you move the Antenna 1" that way or .5" that way (I am not kidding) in the attic. If you are lucky you can find a spot that will pick up all the channels. It just sort of depends on your location. It took me about a week to finally be able to get them and the antenna positioned correctly.

Hope that helps

- Todd

PS Go Jayhawks! I graduated from CSU but was at KU during the 88 B-ball championship!! Jayhawk fan forever.

Originally posted by dbucciar
This is definitely OT for this thread... but I had to share my victory with folks who might apreciate it... I upgraded my 30hr TiVo to 120hrs with a new hard-drive today... and it still works!... and I didn't electrocute myself on the open power supply!

Anyone else do this to their TiVo?

cheers!


I have my 120 Gig extra drive upgrade kit on order from Weeknees and should get it Tuesday. I am looking forward to doing the upgrade next weekend! :)

Todd-
You've got mail!

I also live in Westridge, so we must be nearly neighbors! Thanks for your information on the channels. Yeah, gotta love them Jayhawks...I was there when they won the '88 championship as well; freshman year for me, so it was quite a party on campus!

Originally posted by dbucciar
This is definitely OT for this thread... but I had to share my victory with folks who might apreciate it... I upgraded my 30hr TiVo to 120hrs with a new hard-drive today... and it still works!... and I didn't electrocute myself on the open power supply!

Anyone else do this to their TiVo?

cheers!
My main TiVo has been upgraded from 1x40GB drive to 2x80GB drives. My TiVo hooked up to my more northern satellite dish has grown from 1x30 to 1x30 + 1x40 GB drives.

Plus I've upgraded another 8 or so TiVos for coworkers of mine. :D

I'm thinking about installing an antennal on a rotor in my attic. What channels can I expect to receive?

A neighbor across the street had a Voom install, they put up a boomerang shaped antenna for the locals, but he can only get WGN and Fox. I can get Fox with an indoor antenna, but that's it. I've been getting the locals from D* in SD.

The Nuggets game is listed as upcoming on D* channel 84. Will we be able to see this game in HD in Denver?

I'd guess that it depends on if anybody has local broadcast rights. I know all the Avs games on HDNet were blacked out in Denver in deference to the Fox Sports Net crappy SD signal and crappy commentators. Is the game on FSN? If not, I'd say chances are good for you to see it.

Tom,

Check this thread. It has quite a few people in your area. They have posted what they can receive.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587&highlight=denver+data

I just spent the last few hours running another cable from my dish to the future spot of my HD TiVo....now all I need is the TiVo and I'm ready to roll :)


Tom,
Before you mount an antenna connect it to good low loss RG-6 and connect it directly to your HD receiver (use no splitters at first) and then find the best spot for your antenna. Inches (I kid you not) can make the difference between success and failure.

Originally posted by dbucciar
This is definitely OT for this thread... but I had to share my victory with folks who might apreciate it... I upgraded my 30hr TiVo to 120hrs with a new hard-drive today... and it still works!... and I didn't electrocute myself on the open power supply!

Anyone else do this to their TiVo?

cheers!

Congrats Dom. Now all you need to do is to take it to the next level and add the software to do extraction, TivoWeb, etc. That's when it really gets fun! :D

BTW, I too am itching for an HD Tivo, but since my wife had twins a couple of weeks ago, and I'm now spending $200+ a month just on diapers for my three kids (gotta get the 2 year old potty trained soon!), I've got more pressing priorities for my "disposable" income. If anyone local gets one and is willing to show it off, I'd love to come over and play with it for a bit.

Eric

Originally posted by Geof
Before you mount an antenna connect it to good low loss RG-6 and connect it directly to your HD receiver (use no splitters at first) and then find the best spot for your antenna. Inches (I kid you not) can make the difference between success and failure.
I would second that. Spool out 100' of RG6 and try some non-permanent outdoor locations (in the yard, on the deck, in front of windows, etc.) and see what your reception is possible at your location before going up in the attic. I did some experimentation with my son in front of the receiver inside while I moved the antenna around outside. A great use for cellphones.

This question is for other Samsung OTA users in the area - are you able to get KTFD, channel 15? I know I was able to receive it several months ago, but when I try it now I get a solid green signal light but "No Signal" on the display.

SAMSUNG TS-160 NO AUDIO FOR FOX 31-1
Anyone else having this problem since about a week? Suddenly the audio is not there. Missing American Idol?
Any suggestions anyone?
Thanks

Originally posted by Tom Roper
I'm thinking about installing an antennal on a rotor in my attic. What channels can I expect to receive?

A neighbor across the street had a Voom install, they put up a boomerang shaped antenna for the locals, but he can only get WGN and Fox. I can get Fox with an indoor antenna, but that's it. I've been getting the locals from D* in SD.

Tom,

I'm in the same area as you (Willow Trace neighborhood off of Chenango) and I can get everything except for ABC. And I am just using an amplied internal antenna pointing out of a window that faces due East. If you mount it outside you should have no problems. I don't even have to move the antenna around to get all of the channels. It is a pretty tight corridor to recieve all of them, but it can be done without a rotor.

Steve

Originally posted by kumarv
SAMSUNG TS-160 NO AUDIO FOR FOX 31-1
Anyone else having this problem since about a week? Suddenly the audio is not there. Missing American Idol?
Any suggestions anyone?
Thanks

Try switching your audio setting to PCM instead of Dolby.

Originally posted by squidboy

BTW, I too am itching for an HD Tivo, but since my wife had twins a couple of weeks ago, and I'm now spending $200+ a month just on diapers for my three kids (gotta get the 2 year old potty trained soon!), I've got more pressing priorities for my "disposable" income. If anyone local gets one and is willing to show it off, I'd love to come over and play with it for a bit.

Eric

Wow squidboy, My twins are 16. I don't even remember the first three years. Even if you get a HD Tivo, you will be too "pooped" to watch it. :D

Originally posted by kumarv
SAMSUNG TS-160 NO AUDIO FOR FOX 31-1
Anyone else having this problem since about a week? Suddenly the audio is not there.

This has been a problem on certain receivers (including my Samsung 360) since they switched over to 720p last week. I sent a note from their website asking them to bring the issue to the attention of the Engineering Department, but haven't received any response as of yet.

Maybe if everyone who is having the problem calls and/or writes it will force them to look into it and get it resolved.

Originally posted by bikenski
This has been a problem on certain receivers (including my Samsung 360) since they switched over to 720p last week. I sent a note from their website asking them to bring the issue to the attention of the Engineering Department, but haven't received any response as of yet.

Maybe if everyone who is having the problem calls and/or writes it will force them to look into it and get it resolved.
I believe if you poke around the http://denverdtv.info site, you'll be able to find phone numbers/contact names for the engineering department at KDVR. I know that's how I got a hold of their engineers back when Fox corporate first announced a few months ago that they'd start 720p HD transmissions this fall.

Thanks for the tip! I just sent an email directly to the Director of Engineering, as listed on http://bricklin.org/AVSForum/StationADOResults.asp?Station=KDVR

Hopefully that will get a better response than the general contact section of the Fox 31 News website.

AVSForum user timf is reporting in another thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3686712#post3686712) that KUSA is set to officially launch their local HD news on April 29. timf speculates that it will include new sets, new graphics, more cameras, and HD video from their traffic copter. I say about time, especially since they've been touting their HD copter now for months.

Many thanks to all for the HD antenna advice, Geof, Ernie, Steve, Santella, Oxo, and for the link to the other reception topic.

I am in Willow Trace II...

I once hooked up a non-amplified indoor antenna and received Fox, but nothing else. Astounding that it's possible to pick up with an amplified indoor facing east, but welcome news.

Originally posted by Tom Roper
Many thanks to all for the HD antenna advice, Geof, Ernie, Steve, Santella, Oxo, and for the link to the other reception topic.

I am in Willow Trace II...

I once hooked up a non-amplified indoor antenna and received Fox, but nothing else. Astounding that it's possible to pick up with an amplified indoor facing east, but welcome news. Good luck with your efforts...let us know how it works out for you.

Originally posted by dr_mal
AVSForum user timf is reporting in another thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3686712#post3686712) that KUSA is set to officially launch their local HD news on April 29. timf speculates that it will include new sets, new graphics, more cameras, and HD video from their traffic copter. I say about time, especially since they've been touting their HD copter now for months.

I saw the same advertisement in the last few days, don't remember exactly when, but they certainly stated that on the 29'th everything would be up and functioning including the helicopter. It was an extended commercial, can't remember if it was during the news or where I saw it, but they went in to detail about the new HD cameras and talked about being the first to broadcast HD from a helicopter. They showed the edge of a new desk and stated they would have a new HD set as well. I found it interesting that they did not attempt to explain how people were supposed to 'receive' the broadcast.

I found it interesting that they did not attempt to explain how people were supposed to 'receive' the broadcast.

Bwahahahaha!

:D

This morning, 9News said their new HD Sky 9 helicopter is out at the NAB convention. I guess that's a good reason not to be seeing HD pictures from Sky 9 right now.

I found it interesting that they did not attempt to explain how people were supposed to 'receive' the broadcast.Now I know what they were planning, when they held that 'Can Drive' last year. They must have also had a 'String Drive' and I missed it!

Originally posted by santellavision
Now I know what they were planning, when they held that 'Can Drive' last year. They must have also had a 'String Drive' and I missed it! Does that mean they need 12 cans and 6 strings for DD 5.1??

Actually you need 14 and 7.

6/12 for audio and 1 set for the image which also comes down the line in digital tones. But you need a Del Monte, 6 oz. digital video decoder too.

Since I haven't gotten a response from KDVR-DT regarding the audio issues since converting to 720p (maybe the Engineering Dept. is out at the NAB convention along with KUSA's chopper,) let's compile some data regarding the problem. Hopefully they'll read this thread and the data will help them with troubleshooting.

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT?

2. What type of STB are you using?

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? (Optical, Coax, RCA, Other?)

4. Which audio mode are you using? (Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc)

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT?

No

2. What type of STB are you using?

Samsung SIR-TS360

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? (Optical, Coax, RCA, Other?)

Optical

4. Which audio mode are you using? (Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc)

Dolby Digital

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes
2. What type of STB are you using? - Dish 6000
3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical
4. Which audio mode are you using? - Dolby Digital

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT?
NO
2. What type of STB are you using?
Samsung T-160

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? (Optical, Coax, RCA, Other?)
RCA
4. Which audio mode are you using? (Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc)
Tried both Dolby Digital, PCM (only options availabe with STB). Alternate audio option gives me Spanish AC3 or German AC3 but no audio as well. I do not see English option at all.....

1) Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT?
yes and no
2) What type of STB are you using?
Samsung T-160 - no audio, Zenith SAT-520 - yes, receiving audio
3) What type of audio outputs?
RCA for the Samsung, Optical for the Zenith
4) Which audio mode are you using?
Samsung T-160 - no audio on either PCM or Dolby
Zenith SAT-520 - Dolby Digital

1) Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT?
NO
2) What type of STB are you using?
Samsung TS-360
3) What type of audio outputs are you using? (Optical, Coax, RCA, Other?)
RCA and Optical (RCA to my TV, Optical to A/V receiver) both no good.
4) Which audio mode are you using? (Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc)
Dolby Digital. Tried PCM - locked the video up - worked for a while, then unable to get PCM to work either (but still locks the video up). Buzzing sound heard when switching back to Dolby Digital.

Note: Hughes E-86 working fine (using both RCA to local TV and RF outputs to another remote TV)

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes
2. What type of STB are you using? - Dish 921, Hipix HD card in HTPCs
3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical, Coax
4. Which audio mode are you using? - Dolby Digital

Originally posted by markdl
1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes
2. What type of STB are you using? - Dish 921, Hipix HD card in HTPCs

Mark,

You were previously having problems with both your tuners, right? So something must have changed that cleared up some of the issues, but the Samsung boxes still aren't happy.

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? Yes

2. What type of STB are you using? Motorola 5100 via Comcast

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? (Optical, Coax, RCA, Other?) Optical

4. Which audio mode are you using? (Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc) Dolby Digital

Even though I'm not using an OTA receiver, I thought I'd provide this information since I did not have KDVR audio for a few days last week.

Originally posted by bikenski


1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? Yes

2. What type of STB are you using? Samsung SIR-T151

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? (Optical, Coax, RCA, Other?) RCA

4. Which audio mode are you using? (Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc) 2 channel stereo

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes
2. What type of STB are you using? - RCA DTC-100
3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical
4. Which audio mode are you using? - Dolby Digital

RCA DTC100 (equiv.)
1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes
2. What type of STB are you using? - RCA DTC100 (equiv.)
3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical
4. Which audio mode are you using? - PCM & Dolby Digital

Sony HD200
1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes
2. What type of STB are you using? - Sony HD200
3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical
4. Which audio mode are you using? - PCM & Dolby Digital

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - No.

2. What type of STB are you using? - Samsung 360

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical

4. Which audio mode are you using? - Dolby Digital

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? NO

2. What type of STB are you using? Samsung T-160

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? Optical

4. Which audio mode are you using? DD

I don't know if I am getting audio on KDVR since I haven't tuned in lately. Based on the responses so far I can assume the answer would be yes.

The problem children appear to be Samsungs.....perhaps KDVR can can KWGN and get the fix since they also had a Samsung issue.

Originally posted by bikenski
Mark,

You were previously having problems with both your tuners, right? So something must have changed that cleared up some of the issues, but the Samsung boxes still aren't happy.

Sometime between Friday and Sunday last week, something changed with KDVR, so that when I rescanned all of the channels on my 921 and both hipixes, KDCVR remapped to 31-1 and evething works now for me.

Definitely sounds like the Samsungs are the problem children here again. Skip should talk to KWGN to see what they did to fix the problem...

Hey Look! First on the page! Been awhile since I pulled that one off!

Originally posted by markdl
Hey Look! First on the page! Been awhile since I pulled that one off! D@mn you!

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes
2. What type of STB are you using? - Hughes and Zenith
3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - RCA (H) and Optical (Z)
4. Which audio mode are you using? - 2 channel (H) and Dolby Digital (Z)

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? Yes

2. What type of STB are you using? I have used 2 Zenith, a Unity Motion OTA and Integra OTA receiver over the last two years without a problem (not counting lip synch). Currently using the D* Zenith and have not seen a problem over the last two weeks. Haven't tried the others recently.

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? Both Optical and RCA

4. Which audio mode are you using? Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc. whichever provides best sound.

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT?

No

2. What type of STB are you using?

Samsung T160

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? (Optical, Coax, RCA, Other?)

Optical

4. Which audio mode are you using? (Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc)

Tried both DD and PCM. No go.

I called KDVR's engineering department today. Talked with Jim (?). He said that was odd, as their Samsung (I did not ask what model) was working fine.

Came home, did the ole unplug/reboot thang, and still no audio.

Hmm. Here we go again some more, eh?

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT?
No

2. What type of STB are you using?
Samsung ts-360

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? (Optical, Coax, RCA, Other?)
I have tried optical, coax and RCA - none work

4. Which audio mode are you using? (Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc)
I have tried all modes with all types of audio outputs.

24 looks really nice tonight. Too bad I can't lip read.

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes
2. What type of STB are you using? - Motorola DSR-550 (Voom)
3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical (1), RCA (1), Coax (1)
4. Which audio mode are you using? - Dolby Digital, RCA, COAX

On the 6am news this morning, they showed video of Sky9 at NAB in Vegas (oddly enough, the video was shot 16:9 but aired squeezed to fit 4:3 -- everyone was tall and skinny)

They talked about how expensive it was, how picture quality coming out of it will be unparalleled, and that it'll start flying over Denver next week. Apparently on Tuesday's 6am news, they'll have the copter on the ground to show it off. So Wednesday I'd suspect will be the first day of HD traffic reports.

On a different ( better ) note, you are officially the envy of my household since the HDDIRECTIVO will be shipping to you today. Hopefully, I will see one in just about a week or so.

Let us know here about the OTA reception with the unit.
Jeff

Yeah there David....don't blink before the UPS guy leaves ...:)

OT, I wonder how all those TiVo fanatics are coping today since the site isn't working and their TiVo's are supposedly shipping....

Thanks for all the responses! It appears that the audio issue is only still affecting the Samsung 160 and 360 at this point, so I bet they're using a 151 as their test box.

If anyone from KDVR engineering is reading this... let me know if you need a 360 to troubleshoot the problem - I'll loan you mine!

Long time lurker, first time poster to this thread....

KDVR HD is silent for me as well. You guessed it, TS-360. What's strange is I tuned into the baseball game Friday night and had sound. But then I channel surfed for awhile and when I came back the sound was gone.

As long as it's fixed by fooball season everything will be fine. Meantime the big concern is how to get Monday Night Football HD.

Originally posted by bikenski

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT?

NO

http://us.st8.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/wickedcoolstuff_1790_187925335

2. What type of STB are you using?

Samsung TS-360


3. What type of audio outputs are you using? (Optical, Coax, RCA, Other?)

Optical/RCA


4. Which audio mode are you using? (Dolby Digital, PCM, 2 channel stereo, mono, etc)

Dolby D.

Audio will work when output is switched to PCM, however video will freeze

Originally posted by jeffden
On a different ( better ) note, you are officially the envy of my household since the HDDIRECTIVO will be shipping to you today. Hopefully, I will see one in just about a week or so.

Let us know here about the OTA reception with the unit.
Jeff
Got my overnight tracking number :D :D :D

I'll make sure to let you all know my "first impressions" tomorrow...

Originally posted by dr_mal
Got my overnight tracking number :D :D :D

I'll make sure to let you all know my "first impressions" tomorrow... You Ba$tard!



J/K - good to see they're finally shipping. You and Dennis should be happy campers soon...

Dish Network DVR 921
1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes

2. What type of STB are you using? - Dish DVR 921

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical

4. Which audio mode are you using? - PCM & Dolby Digital

Sony 55 Widescreen Internal HD Tuner
1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes

2. What type of STB are you using? - Sony Internal Tuner

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical & RCA

4. Which audio mode are you using? - PCM, Dolby Digital, Dolby 2.0

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
Long time lurker, first time poster to this thread....

KDVR HD is silent for me as well. You guessed it, TS-360. What's strange is I tuned into the baseball game Friday night and had sound. But then I channel surfed for awhile and when I came back the sound was gone.

As long as it's fixed by football season everything will be fine. Meantime the big concern is how to get Monday Night Football HD.

This is important information to get to KDVR. When KRMA was having a problem (with units not being able to pick up the signal even though the strength was fine), I noticed something like this, mentioned it to them as looking like my "cache" was fine, but when updated, everything went away. They sent me back a note thanking me for giving the information that pointed them to their problem. So we should TRY to get this to KDVR.

As for my results:

1. Are you receiving audio from KDVR-DT? - Yes, with caveat

2. What type of STB are you using? - Samsung T-150

3. What type of audio outputs are you using? - Optical and RCA

4. Which audio mode are you using? - DD on optical -- RCA Stereo to the TV


So I'd noticed I was getting sound, but I just popped the TV on, and went to 32, got sound. I didn't check the DD signal. I will do that tonight and report back :)

I just received a message from Skip Erickson, the VP of Engineering and Operations at KDVR. (I met him last August at the tower hearings, and he's a genuinely nice guy that really wants to make KDVR's signal perfect and will work as long as it takes to make that happen, BTW.)

He told me that they are definitely monitoring this thread, and that they are well aware of the Samsung audio problems. They have a T-361 which receives their audio with no problems. So, he's now going to talk to Don Rooney over at KWGN to see what they did to solve the Samsung issues.

Originally posted by markdl
(I met him last August at the tower hearings, and he's a genuinely nice guy that really wants to make KDVR's signal perfect and will work as long as it takes to make that happen, BTW.) I guess that's evident by his working for years to get lip-sync right and to continue trying to stretch SD until they reach 16:9.

I knew that someone was going to bring that up...at that time, Skip told me that the lip sync problem wasn't a result of anything on thelocal level here, and that he was as frustrated as we were with it. I believed him.

For anyone interested, here's a link (http://9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=61b013f9-0abe-421a-00ba-d10ca37e2b30&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf) to this morning's Sky9 news piece.

The R/C helicoptors in the video portion was great! The guy was hovering upside down and mowing the grass behind the reporter!

D@mn! I missed again! It's tough to get old and slow

It appears we'll have several radio stations broadcasting from Lookout in high-power HD before the major TV stations. Is sCARE throwing a fit about this?? ;)

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040419/phm022_1.html

For those of you unfamiliar with HD radio, check it out at http://www.ibiquity.com

Where's the video portion that has the R/C helicopters? I clicked the link for "watch the video" near the top of the story that dr_mal linked. I saw a segment on gadgets but didn't see any coverage of the HD helicopter or the R/C copters.

I was able to "break" KWGN-DT's audio on my Samsung 360. If I tune to Channel 2-1 and view the audio options, they appear as "English Dolby Digital" and "English Dolby Digital" (not a typo - both choices are the same.)

Changing to the "other" English Dolby Digital makes the sound go away. It doesn't come back until I change to a different station then tune back to 2-1.

Something is definitely a bit flaky with the audio on these Sammys!

quote:
Originally posted by dr_mal
Got my overnight tracking number

I'll make sure to let you all know my "first impressions" tomorrow...


-------------------------------------------------

My #29 is also on the way, though I failed to upgrade to overnight shipping and now I am paying the price!

I must smile through my heartache!

Originally posted by weldon
Where's the video portion that has the R/C helicopters? I clicked the link for "watch the video" near the top of the story that dr_mal linked. I saw a segment on gadgets but didn't see any coverage of the HD helicopter or the R/C copters. There was an embedded video player in the right side frame of that page, just scroll down and click the play button. (unless you have a Mac or use Netscape, then it said "Mac and Netscape users, click here (http://bc1.liquidviewer.com/9newskusa/acm/1082566939265-4-21-04-helicopters6a.wmv?4-21-04-helicopters6a)").

Originally posted by bikenski
I was able to "break" KWGN-DT's audio on my Samsung 360. I wouldn't call it "breaking" their audio. You are choosing a Separate Audio Program (SAP) that happens to have nothing on it (and doesn't even have a unique listing). They must've been unable to figure out how to do it on the same sub-channel. At one time (maybe still) on 2-2, they were delivering nothing on the main audio stream and spanish on one of the SAP channels.

Originally posted by RonAuger
I wouldn't call it "breaking" their audio. You are choosing a Separate Audio Program (SAP) that happens to have nothing on it (and doesn't even have a unique listing). They must've been unable to figure out how to do it on the same sub-channel. At one time (maybe still) on 2-2, they were delivering nothing on the main audio stream and spanish on one of the SAP channels.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear on why I consider it to be abnormal. After selecting the SAP channel on 2-1 the audio doesn't return, even after switching back to the primary audio stream.

I am curious about bikenski's post about HD-Radio. How are the radio stations able to change/add, analog/digital. I thought it's been posted that it's an issue of analog/digital is not same usage?

Originally posted by DP1
It wont make any difference. Such a small percentage of people use/rely on OTA transmissions and those who do would be the ones least likely to care about H/DTV anyway.
I don't believe this is true.

I care deeply about HDTV as a videophile, which is why I dropped my horrid cable years ago and don't care for the overcompressed images touted as high quality available from D* or E*.

Yep - that means over the air NTSC and C/Ku-band satellite for me, and hopefully ATSC OTA HDTV as I'll never see an HD network broadcast any other way. (I refuse to pay Comcast's obscene rates to duplicate programming I already get just to get HD, and their digital cable looks as bad as D* or E*...)