But whats not true about it? With C-Band and OTA *you're* a hobbyist/admitted videophile, not a run of the mill tv owner that couldnt really care less about tv in general. Of the 15 million homes (out of 105 million total) that dont have cable/DBS, how many do you think are like you? As you know, C-Band subs are lower than ever. My point was simply that most (but not all) the folks without cable/DBS are those folks that dont watch enough tv to care about resolution.

Theres a reason why 90 million homes have cable/DBS and they're not about to scrap it for OTA and/or C-Band just because of HDTV. And in the case of the cable users at this time theres no reason to go out and buy a standalone digital tuner and dick around with antenna's to boot when now they can just swap out thier cable box with the HD version to go along with their new tv.

Also, even those that use an HD DBS receiver that currently do use an antenna for the HD locals, for the most part would probably just tune to them via the DBS provider if they suddenly offered those HD locals on their system. No low power issues, no multipath issues, no weather issues, no dropouts when an airplane goes over etc etc. Not to say that the cable system itself doesnt go down from time to time also.

I have 3 OTA digital tuners but if I'm not already recording something else on my Comcast HD box, thats the box I'll use when I sit down and wanna watch something on CBS for example. Bout the only time I use my OTA tuners anymore are during recording conflicts or to watch KMGH since the cable doesnt have it yet.

Hey there dr_mal......you've been awfully quiet.....have you gotten that HD TiVo up and running yet? I'm really curious about its OTA performance.

Dan - For the near term, I couldn't agree more - but in the long term, even those who couldn't care less will become part of the new breed. I've seen it with people who wouldn't be bothered with color TVs, audio CDs, or DVDs. When they become the mainstream, that's what they go to buy in the store. TV's will eventually be all ATSC, and with the antennas being small and effective for full-power DTV sigs, the OTA group will be delighted with the improvements over analog for little or no effort. And since the OTA group already gets the signal, it would be no more effort to get the DTV equivalent. I have retired my CM4248 for the Winegard SquareShooter with preamp. I get 93-100 on the side of my house (no more obtrusive than the sat dish) on KWGN, KDBI, and KDVR solid. (The RP stations weren't reliable anyway since my signal source was a reflection off the school building on the top of the hill). Just thinking ahead here - a trend in the TV market has been continually larger screens - with some newer ones being thin, relatively light, and wall-mountable - HD becomes more of a factor as it will become less cost (probably not for a decade, tho) and SD really looks crappy for large screens (especially for sports). OTA that is easy to receive (probably never in Denver - hey a new slogan!) wilth a fabulous picture for the $400 LCD 60" display may make the difference. But, then there's the reality of today - oh well...

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
Dan - For the near term, I couldn't agree more - but in the long term, even those who couldn't care less will become part of the new breed. I've seen it with people who wouldn't be bothered with color TVs, audio CDs, or DVDs. When they become the mainstream, that's what they go to buy in the store. TV's will eventually be all ATSC, and with the antennas being small and effective for full-power DTV sigs, the OTA group will be delighted with the improvements over analog for little or no effort. And since the OTA group already gets the signal, it would be no more effort to get the DTV equivalent.

Oh I dont disagree there.. if for no other reason than many of those folks not having a choice in that matter. When analog finally goes dark they'll have to go digital and they can either continue to use rabbit ears or whatever..or get a multichannel provider.

We have an older gentleman friend of the family who loves mentioning that he can get like such and such number of channels with his simple OTA antenna (thus who needs to pay for cable?). He can rattle off OTA channel numbers here in town that I dont even know exist. But I promise you, the last thing he cares about is HDTV. We've sat and watched things like Smart Travels a few times when he's visted and rest assured rather than listen to me mentioning how thats gotta be the best thing he's ever seen on a tv, he'd much rather tell me about how cool it was to actually go visit those places for real any number of times in his life. Afterall, even HDTV is still only tv, right? ;)

Thus my premise that for *now* all it is is techno geeks that care whether they can get the signals OTA or not. These other folks giving a darn are still years down the road.

Course the other fear I have with digital when it comes to people that otherwise couldnt care less.. a little bit of ghosting here or there on the channels not being any big deal.. is the all or nothing nature of H/DTV. Even my wife who certainly "likes" HDTV cant stand it when theres momentary drop outs in a/v. Pretty picture in best case scenario doesnt necessarily over ride losing dialog on her favorite show in a worst case scenario. Channel 17 of course is a good example from my particular locale where most nights nary a drop out and other nights more frequent. When they're a little more frequent, while I can tolerate it, no way she can. It's like change the channel or I'm going to go read a book, dude.

In a perfect world, all channels would be full power, from one location... with multipath not existing and tuners so advanced nothing could screw them up. And I suppose someday we'll get there. In the meantime though people are getting plugged in to HDTV from multichannel providers (primariuly cable) in 'big" numbers and wont have any cause to worry about OTA digital until if anything, as I said previously, even thier little portables that never have been connected to the cable or DBS happen to have digital tuners built in and they think it would be neater to watch/listen to GMA while getting ready for work on 17 instead of 7.

Originally posted by Geof
Hey there dr_mal......you've been awfully quiet.....have you gotten that HD TiVo up and running yet? I'm really curious about its OTA performance.
I had to take my son to a doctor appointment this afternoon and I'm running a little behind at work today :(

The unit's been delivered, so I should be hooking it up and reporting back here around 7:00

(donyoop -- no fair stealing it off my porch -- I think you're the only one who knows exactly where I live)

I love this box.

For too long now, I've had to choose between TiVo functionality or HDTV picture quality. No more!

It took me a little longer than I expected to rewire, so if you don't have the cabling all ready to go, you'd be well advised to get that ready ahead of time. The GUI seemed a little sluggish, but then again, it's downloading all the APG info and getting itself setup for the first time, so that's to be expected. Video playback is not affected by this GUI sluggishness. I fully anticipate the GUI to get up to speed, um, speedwise within a day or two.

Lots of pictures of the inside and outside of the box at tivocommunity (I forgot my digital camera at work - d'oh!) as well as more detailed reviews. Basically, this box is everything a DirecTiVo is but with HDTV capabilities. Kind of boring (for experienced TiVo users), but then again, that's a good thing. Fancier interfaces would've only led to more bugs for the TiVo engineers to squash.

OK, I know you're all looking for information about the tuner quality. Prior to the HD TiVo, I had an RCA DTC-100 and a HiDTV Pro PCI card in a HTPC. The HD TiVo is able to tune in all the channels I was able to get with the other tuners at similar strength levels. Every channel was within a handful of points of signal strength compared to the other tuners. Some higher, some lower (sorry, I don't recall exact figures or which channels came in better). In my mind, I'm very impressed, since the TiVo is having to split the OTA signal to feed two internal tuners. Still no whiff of KMGH-DT. Oh, and the HD TiVo does not have audio problems with KDVR-DT.

Sigh, cables ready, nothing in sight for a week or so...........why I didn't check in the TIVO forum while on vacation????Why, oh why? I signed up on the third day and will be the third allotment. Stupid vacation, stupid, stupid!!

Jeff

:)

Originally posted by jeffden
Sigh, cables ready, nothing in sight for a week or so...........why I didn't check in the TIVO forum while on vacation????Why, oh why? I signed up on the third day and will be the third allotment. Stupid vacation, stupid, stupid!!

Jeff

:) At least you have a good excuse. I saw the deal on the first day but hemmed and hawed. I wasn't sold on VE (am I'm still not) and, to be honest, I've had second thoughts about getting this since I placed the preorder but last night (again) my E86 guide just scrolled and scrolled and scrolled. There was no stopping it (and no reading it). I am so tired of this (my language made Deadwood cursing seem tame) and I'm looking forward to the HD TiVo, which now looks like it's 2 weeks away + shipping (another week).

Thanks for the info Dave...if you have any other insights please post. I spent too long last weekend running the 2nd dish line but should have the rest of the cables in place so I'm hoping it won't take to long to get it cabled up.

Originally posted by DP1
I have 3 OTA digital tuners but if I'm not already recording something else on my Comcast HD box, thats the box I'll use when I sit down and wanna watch something on CBS for example. Bout the only time I use my OTA tuners anymore are during recording conflicts or to watch KMGH since the cable doesnt have it yet. Well that may work for you, but I see you're paying large monthly fees to multiple sources; I and several people I know won't pay for signals we can get OTA for free (particularly because the signal I get OTA is better than anything cable ever delivered.) These same folks generally do love HD as they also get it for free (they live in other areas.)

I'm not saying we're the majority, but in my experience there are more than a few people who are interested in HD but who are not interested in paying a monthly fee for television...

Geof, I know I've said this before, but you won't regret getting a TiVo. Once you get it, it will have to be pried from your cold dead hands.

For anyone with a Series 1 DirecTiVo, the "acquiring guide data" message actually goes away on this box.

The Denver HDTV stations all have full guide data which is nice after having to rely on PSIP with the DTC-100.

Originally posted by gkanders

So I'd noticed I was getting sound, but I just popped the TV on, and went to 32, got sound. I didn't check the DD signal. I will do that tonight and report back :)

OK, so I finally checked Dolby Digital output on my SIR T-150 on KDVR. Works like a dream. Funny thing, the other night I was using it on KCNC, and the RCA stereo audio was perfect, but the DD output was not synced up.

Oh, one me thing, chalk me up as one of those OAT only folks who want my HDTV.

Greg

Hey, first on the page. Sorry Ron :)

Originally posted by kucharsk
Well that may work for you, but I see you're paying large monthly fees to multiple sources; I and several people I know won't pay for signals we can get OTA for free (particularly because the signal I get OTA is better than anything cable ever delivered.) These same folks generally do love HD as they also get it for free (they live in other areas.)

I'm not saying we're the majority, but in my experience there are more than a few people who are interested in HD but who are not interested in paying a monthly fee for television...

Well first of all I dont pay what I consider "large" monthly fees for Tv. But thats not here nor there because theres no way of getting non-Network HD channels without paying for them.

As for all the people that want HD signals from OTA, to me the proof is in the pudding. Denver viewers arent a good example for better or worse because of the problems theres been getting the channels on air to begin with. But in all the bigger metro areas like L.A. and S.F. and Dallas and Boston and Seattle and so on, where a large number of stations have been doing the right thing for a number of years people have just flat not bought the tuners to view those channels. Even though millions and millions of the HDTV's themselves have been sold. So it's one of 2 things. People either dont care about HDTV enough to bother with seeing the Network programming in HD even if they own an HDTV or they've just been waiting for cable to deliver it because they dont want to mess around with antenna's.

Last night, we were watching 9News at 10 and noticed that most of the field cameras were showing a 16:9 picture. I am not sure that it was HD, but the pictures were quite good (lots of snow).

Anyway, I am impressed with the overall HD package they are putting together for their news broadcasts. When the helicopter comes online with HD, it will be even better. They were certainly late to the party and made self-serving (and inaccurate) claims about their HD broadcasts, but I think they are working hard to really be #1 in Denver with HD. Now, if only NBC would get more worthwhile shows to watch in HD.

KCNC, are you listening? Being an O&O station, maybe you could get some help on HD upgrades with $$ from CBS to keep up with KUSA!

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
............They were certainly late to the party and made self-serving (and inaccurate) claims about their HD broadcasts, but I think they are working hard to really be #1 in Denver with HD.........
So why don't they tell the audience how and where to find their HD signal. It seems like the best kept secret on the channel. They could even mention the reason (SCARE and the city of Golden) that they are not found on Lookout. It just seems stupid to keep telling the audience how great HD and how big their commitment is to HD and then not to tell people how or where it is available. For the average viewer watching who does not have HD yet, they don't get a clue on what they have to do to receive it. Maybe its just my pet peeve, but it seems like a glaring omission from a channel claiming they are trying to educate the public about HD.

Hey Fox - it's been a week today for us poor Samsung HD box owners - isn't there anything you can do to help us regain sound????

Please???:(

with sugar on it...

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Last night, we were watching 9News at 10 and noticed that most of the field cameras were showing a 16:9 picture. I am not sure that it was HD, but the pictures were quite good (lots of snow).
They've had a lot of field cameras doing a SD 16:9 picture the last couple of days. I found the difference between those and the studio HD shots to be quite dramatic. In any case, I'd rather have 16:9 SD than 4:3 SD. The peasant in me likes my screen to be filled :)
Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Anyway, I am impressed with the overall HD package they are putting together for their news broadcasts. When the helicopter comes online with HD, it will be even better. They were certainly late to the party and made self-serving (and inaccurate) claims about their HD broadcasts, but I think they are working hard to really be #1 in Denver with HD. Now, if only NBC would get more worthwhile shows to watch in HD.
Agreed. They're putting a great effort out now. They'll always have a bit of a sore spot in my heart for waiting so long, but they're definitely doing right by us now.
Originally posted by DennisMileHi
KCNC, are you listening? Being an O&O station, maybe you could get some help on HD upgrades with $$ from CBS to keep up with KUSA!
I have no doubt in my mind that KCNC is not only listening, but working on catching up to KUSA (that just sounds so wrong) in the local news area. Someone posted a link a while ago that quoted David Layne as saying local news in HD was still a year or two away for them. Remember a year ago when both KUSA and KCNC were emphatic that local news in HD was decades away? If KUSA could ramp up as fast as they have, I'm hopeful that KCNC will be able to rise to their rightful place as Denver's HDTV leader.

Those HD commercials they're running now with SoundTrack where they claim that both SoundTrack and 9News have always been leading the way in HD drive me nuts. :rolleyes: I will give them this: if I was new to the Denver HD scene, I'd consider the station that's doing local HD to be the leader.

I certainly agree that KUSA does not make it clear in their commercials on ways to receive their HD signal, but the following has been on their web site for some time. Of course, we all know how to do it and how to look at their web site. Joe 6-pack would likely not know either. I think the fact that Comcast is carrying their HD broadcast is the prime motivator for KUSA to step up their HD promotion. I probably get a flyer from Comcast every two weeks in the mail hyping the HD availability and I am not a Comcast customer. Comcast is clearly how the public will take the plunge on HD, especially given they don't have to mess with an antenna or a large STB expense. It really is pretty easy if they already have cable and a shiny new HD-ready TV (and they don't care about ABC in HD!).


How do I get Channel 9 HD now?

KUSA Channel 9 is currently transmitting from a low power HD transmitter in Downtown Denver (Ch.16 UHF). This site services most of the metro area, but your location/topography and type of antenna will have an impact on receiving this service.

You will need an outdoor UHF antenna that should be pointed towards downtown Denver. We have recently received approval for a high powered facility on Lookout Mountain, but this facility will take approximately a year to construct and bring on line.

This facility will allow for "Rabbit Ear" type indoor antenna's to be used and extend this service to all of our normal viewing area.

Comcast cable is now carrying local channels including KUSA in HDTV.

Satellite companies, DirecTV and Dish, do not carry the HD signals over the satellite, but provide "Over the Air" HD tuners to their customers. The tuner plugs into the customer's satellite receiver (box) and is then connected to a TV antenna. Satellite customers can then receive the HD signal from KUSA IF they can receive the low power HD signal.

This fall 60% of NBC primetime shows will be in HDTV. This is in addition to the "Tonight Show with Jay Leno" five nights a week and other special programs throughout the year.

In light of the new "postponement" of the LGCII tower, I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to do an "email campaign" to two of our local stations.

- first of all, to KMGH and suggest they might at least bump up the power on their existing setup to equal CBS and NBS; perhaps mention how they are far behind their competition and it will be at least another year before they can move their setup.

KMGH-TV
123 Speer Blvd. • Denver • CO • 80203
(303) 832-7777
http://thedenverchannel.com

- secondly to UPN.... couldn't they at least broadcast from downtown since their application is in limbo as well.

KTVD-TV
11203 E. Peakview Ave • Englewood • CO • 80111
(303) 792-2020
upn20.tv

just wondering... also, KDVR/Fox, please fix the sound! :)

John

Hi John,

No dice on KMGH. They have firmly stated they will not move their antenna to Republic Plaza (with KRMA, KCNC, KUSA) Their problem is location, their antenna is about 45' off the ground on top of their building.

The problem with KMGH is management, management, management... did I say management.

As to Comcast, living in such a rural area as Douglas County, certainly one of the poorer and slower growing counties in America, I dont even have the option of Comcast, no service here (and I am between Castle Rock and Parker), so its off air or satl (and no locals on satl). So much for the Comcast option.

What KMGH needs is a good dose of public humiliation.

Anyone have an old Ice-Cream truck with a VERY loud speaker?

I'll pay for the gasoline!

(My apologies to all of you that are tired of hearing us whine about them).

I'm just thinking it cannot have escaped KMGH's notice that KUSA is getting a lot of mileage out of their HD news bragging rights - an email to them might add to the "urgency" to keep up in their market? Maybe an email to several of their biggest advertisers asking why KMGH is not doing more HD?

:)

JP

Originally posted by JackinThornton

(My apologies to all of you that are tired of hearing us whine about them). We keep whining and they keep cheesing us.

Sorry, but until KUSA can be honest with their self promoting back patting I refuse to even tune in. It's one thing to promote your accomplishments and another altogether to be misleading in the process. It doesn't bother me in the least that I can not receive KUSA or KMGH. I doubt I'll ever watch the lying bas****s.

I feel better now....:p

Both KMGH and KTVD had no plans to do anything before LCG2. Odds are, they won't consider this most recent delay to be anything but minor unless and until it ends up completely destroying the LCG2 application.

After all, KMGH will be on the air in a matter of weeks according to their lawyers.

All that said, I suppose nothing could be hurt by trying again. There is, after all, a new general manager at KMGH.

Maybe an email to several of their biggest advertisers asking why KMGH is not doing more HD?Sure, send an email to Rockies Autos. I'm sure they'll really care.no service here (and I am between Castle Rock and Parker)So, this means you're kinda' between 'Castle Rock & a Hard Place'? I couldn't resist. ;)

Originally posted by jscottpierce
... I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to do an "email campaign" to two of our local stations.

- first of all, to KMGH. I'm sure you can't hear all the groans and the "been there, done that" remarks. We've had an FCC letter writing campaign regarding KMGH which turned out to be nothing more than "masturbatory rhetoric". (i.e. spewed talk with no results)

Originally posted by jscottpierce
In light of the new "postponement" of the LGCII tower, I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to do an "email campaign" to two of our local stations.


Letter writing to KMGH?? I can't stand.................AAAACK!

STOP ME BEFORE I POST AGAIN!

I MUST maintain control. I will NOT make any more comments about KMGH or KUSA! I will remain calm. I will try not to think about those lying weasels. I will not comment about the self serving BS they serve everyday on their channels. I will continue to watch my network HD from other sources. Breathe deeply now.......Calmly.......take your hands away from the keyboard and go to the other side of the room.....

Whew, there, that's better, I'm calm again. It's OK, I talked myself down this time. Now I don't feel the need to post any angry comments on the forum.
:cool:

I MUST maintain control. I will NOT make any more comments about KMGH or KUSA! I will remain calm. I will try not to think about those lying weasels. I will not comment about the self serving BS they serve everyday on their channels. I will continue to watch my network HD from other sources. Breathe deeply now.......Calmly.......take your hands away from the keyboard and go to the other side of the room.....

Thanks for the advice, JM. I feel better now.

dr_mal, I'm looking forward to your HD-Tivo review... can you believe it? HD-Tivo has left the building!

Don

Originally posted by santellavision
I am curious about bikenski's post about HD-Radio. How are the radio stations able to change/add, analog/digital. I thought it's been posted that it's an issue of analog/digital is not same usage?

Digital radio is a really sick twisted hybrid. They narrow the main listening bandwidth and put digital crap on the sidebands.
There is probably somebody else out there who could go into great detail, but I'm trying to keep it simple.
The digital sidebands will bleed into your adjacent channels.
For example, if you had a 'digital' broadcast on 850, you would hear squealing on 840 and 860. Good luck getting distant radio signals adjacent to any station broadcasting IBOC (digital).
You will need a special radio to pick up digital radio, but it won't require a second frequency, and analog can stay on the air in it's narrowness.
FM is a bit different, and a little cleaner.
I'm sure, as with any budding technology, they will eventually clean up the garbage a bit.
At this point digital AM is not allowed after sunset because of skywaves. the sideband hash would bounce all over the place making things sound really crappy all over.

Apologies if this has been covered... I looked back in the thread a little ways and couldn't find anything...

Has something changed with KCNC-DT over the last week or so? I'm suddenly unable to tune it in. I'm in the Green Mountain area and I'm using a Dish 6000. It used to be one of my strongest signals. I can still get KUSA-DT just fine, and I've always been able to get KCNC-DT when pointing the antenna the same way. I've tried repositioning the antenna and I occasionally get some spikes, but nothing I can lock onto. I had analog channel 4 set up in the receiver, so I erased it in case there was a remapping problem going from 35-1 to 4-1, but it didn't help. Any ideas? Any one else suddenly having problems? Thanks.

--Rog

With the high winds last Sunday and the snow storm this week, check to see if the antenna has moved at all. Sounds like you checked this, but always worth a look.

Jeff

Good idea Jeff, but the antenna is in the attic, hooked up to a rotator. I did get in there and check to make sure the rotator is still working right, and it is. I dunno - maybe a new building suddenly went up between me and downtown or something. Though you'd think if it was something like that, I'd have problems getting KUSA and KRMA too. I'm baffled.

--Rog

The change of seasons may have something to do with it. I only get the low-power KCNC-DT on my older receiver in the winter (RCA DTC100). Once leaves start coming out it drops below the threshold for a lock. 'Course, I'm way out in Elizabeth so I'm lucky to be seeing anything better than a slide show from KUSA, KCNC, KRMA. My Sony HD200 does much better all year round.

Originally posted by rwinston
Though you'd think if it was something like that, I'd have problems getting KUSA and KRMA too. I'm baffled. KCNC does broadcast on a higher frequency (Channel 35) than the other two republic stations (16 and 18). The higher frequencies do not carry as far at any given power level, and most UHF antennas have a narrower sweet spot for the higher channels.

Now I'm suddenly getting KCNC again, even though I didn't move the antenna or change anything. It's almost like they were off the air for awhile. Or maybe it's some weird weather-related thing like Ron suggests. Ah well, I'm glad it's back.

--Rog

Originally posted by dr_mal
I thought I'd be able to save a few bucks a month and ditch the locals, but darnit, I've gotta see Enterprise through until it gets cancelled. Now if Enterprise doesn't last the season, then I'll go ahead and cancel the locals.

You can ditch the local in order to get Enterprise, and get much better quality to boot. All you need is a C-Band dish and analog receiver. Point the dish at IA6, transponder 18 (5.8/6.2), at 0600 MT, and watch the episode, commercial free.

With C-Band you can also receive the UPN network HD feed (east and west), using a receiver that is < $1k. BTW, the same sat receiver will do OTA and get you network sat feeds for ABC, CBS and The WB. There are no cheap consumer receivers for NBC and Fox isn't HD yet. When they do go 720p, sat gear will be too expensive (they might encrypt as well).

That is all there is to it. :D

Originally posted by Geof
And yes, Enterprise is about the only reason I have as well. With so many repeats I never know when a new episode is on. I am tired of chasing it and thought that the TiVo Season Pass would be the way to go. That said, this whole "expanse" theme really blows (IMO).

http://vidiot.com/st-ent/AirSched3.html

Ouch. I like the expanse theme. To each their own.

Originally posted by mrvideo
http://vidiot.com/st-ent/AirSched3.html

Ouch. I like the expanse theme. To each their own.

Thanks for the schedule. I too find the expanse theme more interesting.

Schedule also at http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/episodes/ENT/index.html?season=3

Is anyone getting KBDI-DT anymore? I've been out of town for a week, and when I left I was just getting a blank screen on 38-1,2,3 (no longer mapping to 12-n ). Now I am back and it is the same way. The signal is still there with good strength.

Mark

They were on during the week days, but then the snow must have gathered on their dish Firday and the PBS Kids and Charlie Rose channel have been out since then (The bug is on 12-2 and test patern with scrolling message on 12-3). It still maps properly on the Sammy 360 and Hughes E86. Weren't they supposed to go HD at some point?

Originally posted by mbuchana
Is anyone getting KBDI-DT anymore?

I just checked it out. 12-1 appeared normal, 12-2 had the "Camp KBDI" logo in the corner but no other video or audio, and 12-3 had a test pattern with "Video Lock Error" scrolling across the screen. Something definitely isn't right. (Symptoms observed using a Samsung 360)

I'm just getting a blank screen on 12-1, 2, and 3 on my HD TiVo.

Originally posted by dr_mal
I'm just getting a blank screen on 12-1, 2, and 3 on my HD TiVo.

Show off!
:p

Of course you know our 'hearts bleed for you' and your HD TiVo. Maybe if you had a 'good' receiver it would help.
:D

I'm getting a blank screen too on my mundane non-recording HD receiver, but then again, I have never gotten the KBDI DTV channel. In their defense, I have also only once tried to point my antenna away from downtown Denver to get them, so they may have come and gone at times without my knowing. I barely get the analog KBDI signal (very snowy and unwatchable for the most part) from Squaw though, even when I point toward it. That is a standard problem in the Boulder area though. I try not to talk about it since the SCARE folks claim Squaw (which is NOT in their back yard) is a great location.

Originally posted by JMartinko
[B]Show off!
:p

Of course you know our 'hearts bleed for you' and your HD TiVo. Maybe if you had a 'good' receiver it would help.
:D

I'm getting a blank screen too on my mundane non-recording HD receiver, but then again, I have never gotten the KBDI DTV channel. ......<clip>
Tad bit grumpy today...didn't like the Bronco's draft last weekend?

:p

I'm getting KBDI-DT again. Based on my recollection of something posted awhile back (by Dan-DP1 I think), I deleted the analog channel 12 along with the digital 38-n, then re-added digital 38 on my E* 6000. I had tried re-adding the channel earlier, but had not deleted analog 12.

I now get all three 38-1, -2, -3 again, but they aren't mapping to 12-n anymore. So, something has changed, presumably in the PSIP area.

Mark

Originally posted by Geof
Tad bit grumpy today...didn't like the Bronco's draft last weekend?

:p

:mad:
Avs hangover left from Saturday's awful game. Can't understand why that many great players can't find a little motivation to play hard for the kind of money most of them make. Oh well, at least my Flyers are still playing well, they haven't hit their annual 'gag' yet.

As for the draft, I never get too excited about it since the early rounders for the Broncos are usually a bust and the late rounders turn in to the pro-bowl players half the time anyway. I will wait until camp and the early season to judge this years picks.

Question on the TiVo which may be obvious to those who have had that service for years. Do they still charge a 'subscription' fee for the use of the recorder, and do they still monitor what you record??? Also, could someone PM me with some costs or an AVS thread or other link with more FAQ's about them (such as storage capacity and expandability)? What happens if I want to record a program from another service such a one 'north of the border' or a movie from a C-Band HD movie channel, does it become a worthless POS or can it accept other sources in a component format? Sorry of all these Q's are old news to most of you, but unlike most of you, I haven't really felt a big need to record things in the past few years and really haven't tracked all of this. It has always struck me that people with multiple HD sources can't really use them anyway.

Originally posted by mbuchana
I'm getting KBDI-DT again. Based on my recollection of something posted awhile back (by Dan-DP1 I think), I deleted the analog channel 12 along with the digital 38-n, then re-added digital 38 on my E* 6000. I had tried re-adding the channel earlier, but had not deleted analog 12.

I now get all three 38-1, -2, -3 again, but they aren't mapping to 12-n anymore. So, something has changed, presumably in the PSIP area.

Mark

KBDI-DT maps to 38-1,2 and 3 on both my Dish DVR-921 and my Sony tuner. It's been that way for me for a couple of weeks now. 38-2 just has the Camp KBDI and 38-3 is just color bars witha scrolling video lock error. I think there may be a big "load" of bird poop on their dish or something, since it happened before th snow storm and high winds hit.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Question on the TiVo which may be obvious to those who have had that service for years. Do they still charge a 'subscription' fee for the use of the recorder,
$5/month to add TiVo service to a DirecTV account. This fee is per account, not per DVR on the account.
Originally posted by JMartinko
and do they still monitor what you record???
They don't monitor what I record, but they are aware that somebody in my zipcode recorded each show I recorded. Right now the way their system is implemented is that log files (which record every keypress on the remote along with a timestamp, enable them to say things like "60% of TiVo customers watched the Britney Spears Pepsi commercial more than once during the SuperBowl") are stripped of any personal identifying information as they're uploaded. So while they'll know that somebody kept watching the Victoria's Secret commercial over and over and over again, they'll never know if it was me or not.

You can opt out of this anonymous data collection with a phone call to TiVo. I figure if it has the potential to keep shows I like on the air, I'm all for it.
Originally posted by JMartinko
Also, could someone PM me with some costs or an AVS thread or other link with more FAQ's about them (such as storage capacity and expandability)? What happens if I want to record a program from another service such a one 'north of the border' or a movie from a C-Band HD movie channel, does it become a worthless POS or can it accept other sources in a component format?
In case anybody else is interested, I'll just post here.

The cost is $999.99. **************** used to have a pre-order deal for $900, but got slapped by DirecTV. They also have quite a large number of backorders at the moment, so you can probably get one sooner by getting in line at SoundTrack or BestBuy for whenever they get some in stock.

Capacity is 250GB - 30 hours of HD, 200 hours of SD, or any combination of the two. They appear to be upgradeable to 250+300 GB, but not 300+300 GB (at least not right now). There are at least a couple of places working on designing a bracket to hold a 2nd hard drive. Right now, there's nowhere to mount it.

It can record OTA ATSC or anything from DirecTV. Rumours are that TiVo is working on making a CableCard-compliant HD TiVo, but there isn't any solid information on that yet.

I thought as time went by there would be MORE digital channels, not FEWER, but during the past few weeks KDVR-DT has become unwatchable (due to the Samsung audio issue) and the two subchannels have dropped off KBDI.

I'm just amazed that problems like these can continue for days on end without being resolved. I'm a Network Engineer, and if there were problems like these where I work (even if it was a new technology only being utilized by <1% of the customer base,) my butt would be out on the street!

Anyone else happen to catch "Star Trek" on KWGN on Saturday night? I watched the first hour or so, and picture quality was superb. The HD transfer must have been done at a different time from the SD transfer, because the SD looked pretty awful. HD was as good as any modern movie, not counting the awful '70s special effects.

KWGN seemed to have a bit of a problem "flipping the switch" for at the very beginning, but everything seemed worked out after the first commercial break.

According to TitanTV, "Star Trek II" will be on next month sometime, so I suggest checking it out.

Anyone know if this was part of the "Paramount One" package (I think that's the name)? I seem to remember someone saying that KWGN had purchased rights to it.

Last Friday, I learned on the TIVO Community Forum (run by AVS) that Best Buy had preorders for the Hughes HD Tivo. Same $999 price. Well, I decided to jump in and they are now telling me it will ship on 4/28. We will see. Anyway, later that day their site was updated so you cannot order it any longer. Probably due to limited initial supply.

There is also some feedback on the TIVO Community Forum that lots of people were getting $250 or so in credit back from D* if you talked to their retention dept. I sent them an email to call me. They did yesterday and told me no luck, but suggested to ask again when I activated the unit. I will do that if BB really comes through this week.

Originally posted by dr_mal
It can record OTA ATSC or anything from DirecTV. Rumours are that TiVo is working on making a CableCard-compliant HD TiVo, but there isn't any solid information on that yet.

From this post, I can gather that there are no component inputs of any type. This means no using an IT-910s to record C-Band HD feeds to the unit.

We can thank the Hollywood A**holes for that.

Our home-recording rights are slowly being destroyed by Hollywood.

From: Peter McNally [pete@grinnellgroup.com ]
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:30 AM
Subject: Lake Cedar Group

Friends,

As you know, the judge directed the County to hold an additional hearing to hear additional testimony on tower failure and documents that we submitted that the judge interpreted as ‘late.’ We have provided the County with the requested evidence. The County intends to circulate the information for comment prior to having a hearing. At this time, they anticipate a hearing in July. While we have been able to proceed with the other permits required from the County, this will affect our build schedule. However, I’ve retired from the date-predicting business so I’m not going to make any guesses. I’ll keep you posted as the hearing dates become firm. Please call/write with any questions.


Sincerely,
Peter McNally, Principal
The Grinnell Group
www.grinnellgroup.com
(515) 279-1026
(515) 279-1027 faxEven Pete doesn't want to pick a date for the pool! :D

Just a tidbit for conversation...

Has the FCC totally abandoned the mandatory enforcement of stations broadcasting in full-power HD? I ask this because of the statements by KRMA that they are forgoing a full-power x-mitter and only re- installing their low-power HD X-mitter on their brand-new Mt. Morrision tower. And staying that way for the next couple of years?

Originally posted by mrvideo
From this post, I can gather that there are no component inputs of any type. This means no using an IT-910s to record C-Band HD feeds to the unit.
We can thank the Hollywood A**holes for that.
Our home-recording rights are slowly being destroyed by Hollywood.
To be fair, there aren't any consumer products that are capable of encoding an analog HD signal (over component or any other connection) in real-time. In addition, DirecTiVo's have never had the ability to encode anything. Stand-alone TiVo's can encode standard-definition NTSC, but DirecTiVo's simply record the already encoded bitstream from the satellite straight to disk. The new HD-TiVo does the same thing with (already encoded) ATSC signals from the OTA antenna input.

It doesn't mean that Hollywood isn't out to limit home-recording, but in this case they didn't have anything to do with the HD-TiVo not having an analog input. The technology isn't there for a consumer product (at least not yet).

Originally posted by squidboy
Anyone else happen to catch "Star Trek" on KWGN on Saturday night? I watched the first hour or so, and picture quality was superb. The HD transfer must have been done at a different time from the SD transfer, because the SD looked pretty awful. HD was as good as any modern movie, not counting the awful '70s special effects.

KWGN seemed to have a bit of a problem "flipping the switch" for at the very beginning, but everything seemed worked out after the first commercial break.

According to TitanTV, "Star Trek II" will be on next month sometime, so I suggest checking it out.

Anyone know if this was part of the "Paramount One" package (I think that's the name)? I seem to remember someone saying that KWGN had purchased rights to it.
I TiVod it. I'll watch it later :D

Yes, it's part of the Paramount HDOne package. Last year the UPN GM told me that KWGN had bought the HDOne package in Denver.

Looking forward to the rest of the Star Trek movies - especially 2, 4, and 6.

Originally posted by mrvideo
From this post, I can gather that there are no component inputs of any type. This means no using an IT-910s to record C-Band HD feeds to the unit.
Correct.
Originally posted by mrvideo
We can thank the Hollywood A**holes for that.
Incorrect. As was already mentioned, there aren't any consumer grade component-in HD recording devices. The biggest reason (or so consumers are led to believe) is that real-time HD encoding chips are in the tens of thousands of dollars range. Granted, with any quantity, that would come down, but at the moment it's not worth it.
Originally posted by mrvideo
Our home-recording rights are slowly being destroyed by Hollywood.
I think they're trying their hardest, but they're already unsuccesful now that Dish 921 and HR10-250 are out. The only "right" we have is to timeshift for a later viewing. Those boxes give us that. We have a "privelege" that we take for granted now that we can archive what we've timeshifted, but home-archival was never a "right" we had by law. (In my opinion.) (This argument has been beaten to death all over avsforum now.)

I must be odd (okay I admit it but please resist the urge to affirm:) ) but I really like ST1:TMP. Perhaps they could have cut out a bit of the Scottie flying Kirk around the Enterprise part but it was genuine Star Trek. I saw the originals when they were first aired and then 100's of times in re-runs so I was psyched to see all new material.

<Off Topic Mode ON> I didn't mean to get us off topic here, but doesn't the Panasonic HD Tape machine use component inputs and then record HD? DP has one, maybe he can comment. I use the I912 as well as the C-Band Digicipher unit (HDD-200) along with inputs from both the US and Canadian tuners for HD other HD sources. All of these units are component out. AFAIK only the tape units can record HD from them. I do blame this problem on the Hollywood industry. I still contend that the entire industry will never be satisfied until everything we watch is Pay-per-view or Pay-per-play, with heavy emphasis on the "Pay" part. They will never be satisfied as long as any consumer has the ability to record a program and play it back for themselves later. They will chip away at that ability as long as they can. The entry to the digital world has given them a huge foot in the door, and they have stuck themselves in the door all the way up to their A$$ so far. Just my opinion.

Like I said earlier, I don't feel the need to record much as I use other means to time shift my networks. I watch mostly sports, so unless it might be a Bronco Super Bowl game, I rarely have the desire to watch a game on 'tape delay'. Once I know the score, the game is over. Recording is not a high priority for me unless the units get cheap enough that it would be fun to have as a spare toy. (One never has too many toys in the AV world!:D ) I rarely watch network shows or movies, so as long as I can get hockey and football from around the globe, I don't really need a TiVo anyway. That is more a function of my taste in programming though, and I don not think my viewing habits are typical. I will be just fine when I can get an HD DVD player and watch HD DVD's. I don't even mind paying a reasonable price for the DVD, as long as I only have to pay it once and can make a backup copy to preserve an out of print version of some movie I like that I already have purchased. <Off Topic Mode OFF>

Nice to hear from Pete finally, but the news is obviously not good. It is hard to imagine that those of us guessing mid-2005 were optimists, but it appears to be true. As I have mentioned previously far too many times, I have pretty much given up on the entire process. (S)CARE has turned the entire Metro Denver area into a joke, and I don't want to participate in their stupid games anymore. Our stations are not really willing to put up a good fight for fear of offending someone, and frankly I think that KUSA is waisting their money putting the local news in HD. It appears that only the 50 of us hear will be watching it anyway. I appreciate the fact they are doing it, and maybe enough PR will make everyone aware of what jerks the (S)CARE folks really are, but I still think it is a waste of their money.

Originally posted by JMartinko
<Off Topic Mode ON> I use the I912 as well as the C-Band Digicipher unit (HDD-200) along with inputs from both the US and Canadian tuners for HD other HD sources. All of these units are component out. Is that digital component out or analog component out ? (Y-Cb-Cr or Y-Pb-Pr respectively)

AFAIK, the D-VHS tape recorders (tape, ugh) use FireWire inputs. No D* HD box has FireWire outputs (for this, I'll concede we can blame Hollywood).

D-VHS machines can record an MPEG-2 stream to tape, but they can't encode analog HD to MPEG-2 and then record to tape (at least none that I know of). JVC has an analog HD tape format called W-VHS with machines that are capable of recording 1080i from component inputs. The recorders run about $5000-$6000 from what I last heard. Tapes are $70-90 each.

I saw some W-VHS machines for close-out going for about $1000. Can't remember where. If I do, I'll post it.

They were on AVS forum special deals forum.

Jeff

Yeah I've used a W-VHS machine for quite awhile. They work fine. I've timeshifted from all 3 of my DBS STB's with it via component output. I dont use it as much anymore since I had purchased a D-VHS machine awhile back for like 295.00 and I've being recording HD with it quite a bit off Comcast via Firewire. Especially since all their HD channels are still in free preview mode.

As far as cost, Alan Gouger has some brand new ones for sale for just under $1K in the Power Buys Forum. Tapes cost about $30 for a 2 hr and $40 for a 3 hr. That in and of itself never bothered me much because I dont archive with that machine..only timeshift so I just use the tapes over and over.

Course theres no DD 5.1 capability but that never bothered me much either on the vast majority of content. I just use DPL II and it's plenty good enough on most things.. save particular action movies or whatever.

The sound works on KDVR again! I have a Samsung ts-360 and everything is peachy now....

JP

Working on my 360 as well! Audio choices now appear as "English Dolby Digital" or "Spanish Dolby Digital."

What's interesting is that it appears to have the same glitch as KWGN-DT where if I select the second (silent) audio channel it kills the sound, even when switched back to English, and I have to move off the channel then return to get it back.

On another note, KBDI's subchannels appear to be back also.

Thanks to the engineers for finally resolving these issues!

Joy in 'Mudville'... (Skipping) :)

KDVR audio on (my) T160 Sammy as well.

Many thanks.

Another step forward for 9News - this morning, all their local field reports (not live reports, the pre-taped stories) were broadcast in HD! There was a piece on West Nile, some punk who beat up a dog, and the local/state fight over banning specific breeds of dogs. All in HD. Very nice.

Of course, since 9News has troubles moving forward without moving back, the main studio shot was back to 4:3 SD this morning. Hopefully it'll be back tomorrow. At least the Backyard weather camera was still in HD.

No update on the traffic copter today. Watching the segment from last week, they said the copter would be back in town today, not necessarily on display today.

Another Samsung T 160 owner receiving sound from KDVR! Thanks for the effort, just in time for 24 tonight.

I've noticed on Channel 9 news that many times you can see the non speaking anchor "lean in" when the speaking anchor is on camera. I wonder if the new set will allow for more room at the desk to compensate for the widescreen presentation.

Thank you Fox!

My Sammy is working just fine now. Thanks for being responsive!:D

My 360 is getting sound now too!

I assume they have already moved their HD cameras to the new studio (which opens Thursday), which would explain why the studio cameras are in SD today and probably tomorrow as well. After being used to the HD cameras, you can really notice what a difference they make over the old SD cameras.

Iwanthd, I expect the problem with being able to see the off-camera anchor was a major reason they went to the expense of building a new studio. I doubt we'll see this anymore.

Originally posted by timf
I assume they have already moved their HD cameras to the new studio (which opens Thursday), which would explain why the studio cameras are in SD today and probably tomorrow as well. After being used to the HD cameras, you can really notice what a difference they make over the old SD cameras.
Duh. That makes perfect sense now that you mention it. That also explains why the backyard camera was still HD -- it won't be moving to the new studio. I guess I expected a new set within the same studio. I didn't know they were building a whole new studio.

One more thing to add. Sky9 is in HD as of the 4:00 broadcast today.

Originally posted by timf
One more thing to add. Sky9 is in HD as of the 4:00 broadcast today. Yup, I just saw their 4:30 traffic report, which had a couple of dropouts - it may take them some time to get the kinks worked out. Generally it looked great except when the camera was pointing into the sun.

Just thought I would pass along an interesting website
(Relating to our debacle)

http://www.iwantmyhdtv.com/iwanthdtv/

I sent my letter in. (It's fast and easy-They have a pre-written letter)

Ernie
Although I think the letter writing campaign is a good idea, in some ways it plays in to the hands of the (S)CARE group as well. One of their arguments against antennas and transmitters on Lookout has been that the signals could more easily be made available by satellite, negating the need for any towers. Of course they never bother to address the issue of who pays the bills for what should be a free OTA service. Personally, I would be nervous if the networks were all easily available on satellite that someone from Golden or (S)CARE would find a way to convince the Jeffco Commissioners that the whole tower and services were not necessary. I remember them using that argument, and I also know it was used extensively during the "Eldorado" hearings by the local folks there as well.

I think the overwhelming evidence is that the letter is correct when it states:
"I urge you to allow satellite TV companies to offer me a distant HDTV feed as a replacement...........It is my understanding that this service can be provided to consumers immediately if satellite television providers are given permission from Congress. Therefore, I ask that you support the satellite TV proposal during the consideration of SHVIA that will increase competition and consumer choice by allowing satellite television providers to offer digital service in areas where it is not made available by local broadcasters. I think the proposal is a good idea. Not only would it allow me to receive the programming I want, but it would motivate broadcasters to move more quickly to make their DTV signals available over-the-air to my neighbors. "

I think it would help motivate many local stations to get 'in gear' and get on the air. Here in Denver, though, I think there are some other subtle issues in play as well.

Personally, there's no way I'm going to pay to get what should be free OTA content.

I really wish the FCC would just step in and negate SCARE's "concerns" by mandating the tower as a public interest issue; the towers were there long before most Golden residents were.

Originally posted by kucharsk
Personally, there's no way I'm going to pay to get what should be free OTA content.


Perhaps the letter writing campaign we should start should really be to (S)CARE headquarters and the City of Golden to see if they would be willing to pay all our cable and/or satellite bills in exchange for not putting up the new towers. Better yet, maybe everyone with Comcast HD should just have their bill forwarded. Now THERE is a letter campaign worth fighting for.

BTW, I saw the morning news on KUSA and caught the 9 helicopter HD shots. Pretty amazing quality views for sure. I guess tomorrow is the big day for 9 news. Too bad so few people can pick up their signal. At least I do like the fact they are giving it so much pub. Even if only 100 can pick it up, it has got to get other folks wondering where to receive it. Such a waste of good money though.

But then again, KUSA's signal does beat KMGH's signal. KMGH, as always, a "rock steady signal", still a big ZERO on all my OTA receivers.

Boy, am I in trouble. I plugged my zip code into the page given in Ernie's post (80501) and I'm supposedly getting the PBS station from Alliance, NE (pretty far north of Cheyenne). And, I should be getting KMGH (partially). I think I get the black screen part. Hope no one is using these sources to determine my reception capability!

Just to add insult to injury, *IF* (and that's a big "if") ABC HD is ever provided by DirecTV, I would have to apply for a waiver to receive it since KMGH is rated as a "A" reception area for HDTV by DirecTV (meaning the best you can get).


HAHAHAHA!

JP

Hey guys. Watch 9News tonight. I bet you'll see my house in full HD from Sky9. There's a bazillion of the JeffCo Sheriff's dept's finest wandering around my neighborhood searching for those two escaped convicts!

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/entertainment_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_84_2832854,00.html

A Saunders story on KUSA HD copter and studio.

I know that there was a time that many had good reason to be highly critical of KUSA (I have been among those BTW). It sure seems they have decided that HD is important and are putting thier money into promoting it AND providing it. If the story is accurate, they have earned their self proclaimed title of leader in HDTV, not only locally, but for the moment, nationally. I was always told to give credit where credit was due. It looks like KUSA deserves some now.

As to their signal. It does seem a waste that all of their HD efforts reach a limited audience. I am not real sure what they can do about it for the time being though. As Lookout is the best location for a tower, it would not be logical to drop out of LCG and try to find a second rate site just yet.

Phil P.

One item in that article that we hadn't heard before was they they're planning on doing their local live field shots in HD as well. Up until now, we've seen HD in the studio, HD field reports (not live), SD 16:9 field reports (live) and HD Sky9. Looks like they're closing the gap so that everything originated at KUSA will be HD.

Congrats to 9News for jumping onto the HDTV bandwagon so wholeheartedly.

I, for one, am waiting to see 9News in its total glory kickoff tomorrow and plan to send an email of congratulations to Roger Ogden and Don Perez (engineering manager). They really have committed to HDTV having spent millions of dollars.

No wonder they are the TV leaders in Denver! KMGH will forever be in last, last, last place. I bet KDVR and Fox overtake KMGH and ABC once they start broadcasting in HD this fall.

And I still believe the large number of viewers is going to come through Comcast and their free STBs rather than OTA which most of us are getting through extraordinary means.

Way to go, KUSA!!

Originally posted by ppasteur


As to their signal. It does seem a waste that all of their HD efforts reach a limited audience. I am not real sure what they can do about it for the time being though. As Lookout is the best location for a tower, it would not be logical to drop out of LCG and try to find a second rate site just yet.

Phil P. [/B]

Well everything is relative. Even if they had a full power OTA signal the audience would still be extremely limited because of the lack of OTA tuners in the field. And no, in general, the lack of them isnt because of what the stations have(nt) done in these parts to begin with.

Anyway, that said, it is indeed remarkable they've made this sort of commitment at this moment in time.

Personally, I think it was a waste of money for KUSA to do all this now; until they have a full power tower they would have been much better off waiting as the cost of HD equipment will come down a lot in the two to three years minimum it will take for a real thumbs up or thumbs down ruling to come in on the LCG tower.

Personally, I suspect KUSA got the ball rolling when Jeffco finally approved the LCG tower and didn't anticipate the #$@! judge in the case stating that the two to three years the case has already been dragging on wasn't long enough for SCARE to fully air their concerns (sigh...)

Originally posted by kucharsk
Personally, I think it was a waste of money for KUSA to do all this now;

Waste of money?? So much of what's talked about on this forum is aimed at trying to educate and encourage folks to make the commitment to increase HD programming and awareness.

There is no reason to believe that tower will get done in two, three, five, or ten years... or ever for that matter.

I fully support & applaud KUSA's efforts and commitment to HD, tower or no tower.

Why wait? Wait for what?

I think it means a lot more to KUSA as a discriminator between themselves and KCNC for ratings. At least 4 of 9News' newscasters have left in the past few years (Zappolo, Keating, Benneman, and now Mike Nelson). KCNC is giving KUSA quite a run in several of the evening news slots (I didn't realize there were so many). If KUSA news is in HD and KCNC is not, which are you going to watch? Sure, the number of HD viewers is limited, but its growing. Also, KUSA is advertising that their SD broadcast will be better. Since I never switch back to SD if I don't have to, I don't know if this is true or not, but that may be enough to get more viewers to switch. I do know that when CSI is over, I'll switch channels to watch HD. I just wish they didn't start their news so d*** early.

Originally posted by TommyK
Waste of money?? So much of what's talked about on this forum is aimed at trying to educate and encourage folks to make the commitment to increase HD programming and awareness.

There is no reason to believe that tower will get done in two, three, five, or ten years... or ever for that matter.

We are not the general public.

Waste of money, IMHO, to provide HD news for the perhaps 5000 people in the Denver Metro area who actually have the equipment and signal availability to watch 9 News in HD.

The copter - sure it's a cool thing, but I doubt the balance of their investment in an HD news set and cameras will pay back anytime soon...

Guys - having your inital shoot of your local programming DOES help even the NTSC broadcast of the same material - here in Raleigh, WRAL's newscast is noticeably sharper than the competetion's - on my NTSC viewing that on analog.

Originally posted by kucharsk
We are not the general public.

Waste of money, IMHO, to provide HD news for the perhaps 5000 people in the Denver Metro area who actually have the equipment and signal availability to watch 9 News in HD.

The copter - sure it's a cool thing, but I doubt the balance of their investment in an HD news set and cameras will pay back anytime soon...

Where you coming up with the 5000 number? If we're talking strictly OTA viewers you're probably close enough. But for the last 6 or 7 months Comcast has been offering KUSA in HD. Since cable has about 70% penetration on average and all it takes (if your neighborhood is upgraded to HD capability) is a phone call to upgrade to an HD STB from a run of the mill digital STB what makes you think a lot of people that have HD ready sets, but never bothered with buying an OTA tuner to go with it havent called up Comcast and said.."plug me in to HD"?

Dont get me wrong, no matter how you add it up the number of potential viewers is tiny at this point but I'm just saying that even if the tower was built and the channel(s) was full power that wouldnt change anything since as Dennis said, people are going to be getting the signal from cable by in large anyway.

Theres zero evidence to suggest in regards to the tower/OTA issues "if you build it, they will come" because in the other Top 20 markets they have built it yet "nobody" came (based on the number of OTA tuners sold over the last 5-6 years). What would make anyone think the Denver market would be different even if we had 6 or 8 or more full power H/DTV channels up and running?

I watched a bit of the news this morning and it does look nice. Too bad the weather kept the helicopter grounded though. As I have already stated, I really think to a large degree the new studio is a waste of money without a high power telecast available, but what the hey, if they didn't spend the money on the set they would have probably wasted it trying to get the tower approved and construction started. Whatever the reason, I AM thrilled to see all of the publicity this is bringing to the HD conversion. I noted that during the segment describing HD, they did mention that this will not require you to buy a new HD set "JUST YET". I can't tell you how many people I talk to who maintain HD is just a 'fad' that will never catch on. I DO believe that all of the talk of the HD set etc. will at least start to convince some of the general public (maybe even some moderate (S)CARE supporters??) that the transition is inevitable. That can only be a good thing. So for that reason, a one time only "Hat's Off" to KUSA and Roger Ogden for at least getting a part of the transition right.

As for the new studio, the background is not really my bag, I only 'watch' to hear the news and don't much care what the backdrop is, but as long as people like it, it works for me. Not sure what all those monitors (I assume they are simulated) behind the news desk are supposed to tell me. I couldn't tell if any of them are actually TV's or not as they looked to me like a conglomeration of pictures designed to create the 'illusion' that KUSA has access to hundreds of news channels for their reports. Whatever!!! Guess I will have to watch closer at a later time, the coffee just hasn't really kicked in yet this morning, so the 'excitement' meter is still in the 'poor' region this morning.

Sounds like it's time to put together an AVS tour of the new facilities at KUSA! I'd bet once they have everything up and running smoothly, they'd love to show it off.

One more afterthought before I head off to the job, I found it interesting and perhaps for the first time a but humble that the normally self promoting KUSA team kept referring to this being the "First HD news broadcast in the state of Colorado", instead of claiming to be 'first in the west' or 'fourth in the nation' or some such. Maybe KUSA is finally learning that humility can also be a good trait. Let's hope.

They did manage to mention that their copter was the first HD copter in the nation. But good for them -- at least that was a true statement.

My sincerest and hearty congratulations to 9News, Roger Ogden, Bob Perez, and everyone involved with bringing us local news in HD. I like the new "presented in HD" 16:9 opening.

Now my nitpicks:

The Jobline9 camera has been HD up until today. Odd that on the launch of their HD news, it suddenly goes SD.

I was hoping for new HD on screen graphics - all their graphic overlays (weather forecasts, bullet point lists to accompany stories, etc) are still 4:3 SD with the fancy blue bars on the side.

The live shot at JeffCo airport, and the locally-produced stories were both in SD. Hopefully this is just a transitional problem and they'll go HD soon.

Can't HD Doppler9 produce a HD image? The monitor of HD Doppler9 on Kathy Sabine's desk is 4:3. Hopefully that can be upgraded in time as well.

The Avs game last night was available in HD -- why the SD highlights?

If anyone has some good contacts at 9News, I'd be interested in trying to attend a tour of their new HD setup.

Well enjoy the tour guys if one gets setup.

Did any one just see KUSA's News at Four and their explanation about HDTV and how to recieve it? Pretty funny! They are staying completely away from the sCARE and Lookout Mtn. issues. Mark Kobrik (?) is saying just to point your antenna at Republic Plaza and voila instant HDTV. He also mentioned that the FCC mandated that when at least 85% of the viewing market can receive the HD signal, then KUSA would be required to switch to all digital. He mentioned that was years away, so we won't have to worry about losing the analog signal.
No mention that if they had a full power antenna operational that 85% of the viewing area could be viewing HDTV NOW!
It's going to be a long road to full power HDTV, too bad. :(

Originally posted by keithsimp
Did any one just see KUSA's News at Four and their explanation about HDTV and how to recieve it? Pretty funny! They are staying completely away from the sCARE and Lookout Mtn. issues. Mark Kobrik (?) is saying just to point your antenna at Republic Plaza
That's really too bad. It takes a lot of the pressure off JeffCo/sCARE to get LCG approved when the local stations are saying all you have to do is point to Republic...

I guess they're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place though, they can't really be using their borrowed airwaves to try to advance their zoning applications :(

Yes it is unfortunate that most of the viewing population, in the Denver area, are totally unaware of the issues surrounding HDTV. As are many of the sales people in the stores that are selling the HDTVs and receivers. I walked into a locally known store on County Line to look at a RPTV and the salesman tried to sell me the fact that full power HDTV antenna would be up and running on Lookout Mtn. by January 2005! He was willing to guarantee that fact in order to sell the tv! I told him I thought otherwise, but it just goes to show how many people do not know what's really going on.

Originally posted by keithsimp
.
.
<snip>
.
I walked into a locally known store on County Line to look at a RPTV and the salesman tried to sell me the fact that full power HDTV antenna would be up and running on Lookout Mtn. by January 2005! He was willing to guarantee that fact in order to sell the tv! I told him I thought otherwise, but it just goes to show how many people do not know what's really going on. If he'd put that in writing I'd buy the most expensive set/projector in the place.....:eek:

Originally posted by JMartinko
One more afterthought before I head off to the job, I found it interesting and perhaps for the first time a but humble that the normally self promoting KUSA team kept referring to this being the "First HD news broadcast in the state of Colorado", instead of claiming to be 'first in the west' or 'fourth in the nation' or some such. Maybe KUSA is finally learning that humility can also be a good trait. Let's hope.

Hey y'all, I'm not from the area, but I've been watching the tower thing. I stopped watching after the tower was approved.

So now some idiot judge decided to postpone the tower again? Are these people STUPID? I mean, seriously. The broadcasters are offering to REMOVE two or three towers, and put up new transmitters that put out LESS of the dangerous radiation they're concerned about on just ONE tower, and they don't want this to happen? Pure stupidity. I bet they all voted Bush too (sorry, I couldn't resist).

But I quoted this comment because... I think KUSA IS fourth in the nation with a regular HD newscast.

1) WRAL-DT and co-owned WRAZ-DT (counting them as one because they share newscasts and even HD programming from HDNet and ASCN).
2 and 3) Two stations in Seattle I think also do regular local HD programming, though I'm not sure.
4) KUSA-DT.

I know there are some others that have borrowed WRAL's trucks or produced some local sports in HD, but those don't count. Unless I'm mistaken, KUSA is only the third or fourth station doing news in HD.

I can receive WRAL-DT from here sometimes (Aren't I lucky?) and everything they do just about is HD. Live shots, you name it.

- Trip

Originally posted by Trip in VA
Hey y'all, I'm not from the area, but I've been watching the tower thing. I stopped watching after the tower was approved.

So now some idiot judge decided to postpone the tower again? Are these people STUPID? I mean, seriously. The broadcasters are offering to REMOVE two or three towers, and put up new transmitters that put out LESS of the dangerous radiation they're concerned about on just ONE tower, and they don't want this to happen? Pure stupidity. I bet they all voted Bush too (sorry, I couldn't resist).

But I quoted this comment because... I think KUSA IS fourth in the nation with a regular HD newscast.

1) WRAL-DT and co-owned WRAZ-DT (counting them as one because they share newscasts and even HD programming from HDNet and ASCN).
2 and 3) Two stations in Seattle I think also do regular local HD programming, though I'm not sure.
4) KUSA-DT.

I know there are some others that have borrowed WRAL's trucks or produced some local sports in HD, but those don't count. Unless I'm mistaken, KUSA is only the third or fourth station doing news in HD.

I can receive WRAL-DT from here sometimes (Aren't I lucky?) and everything they do just about is HD. Live shots, you name it.

- Trip
Hey Trip,

You're from out of town, and you're still young, so I'll cut you some slack. But if you're going to equate voting Bush with stupidity, you might want to pick another state. Colorado's generally on the conservative side of things. Of course, the crux of this issue is that Golden is full of hippies (must be the overflow from Boulder [no offense jm :D]). They're the ones that are messing things up for all of us.

Yes, KUSA is the fourth station in the country to do local HD news. When they made their first HD newscast (February?), they claimed to be the 2nd in the nation. They were corrected by me, and likely by others. Today, on their official HD launch, they didn't say "4th in the nation", they said "1st in Colorado". I guess that had a better ring to it. And that's fine. They've made a huge accomplishment, and hopefully it'll translate to more HD set sales and more pressure on sCARE/JeffCo to get the LCG tower built.

And I don't think you'll find any arguments here that people opposing the tower have faulty logic at best. Some of the opponents are under the impression that when NTSC OTA goes away, so will the towers. Once you shoot that argument down, they're left with name-calling and hand-wringing as their only arguments. Typical liberals (hey, you started it :p)

Yeah, what dr_mal said. Trip had the right logic, just the wrong result.

BTW, I sent an email to Roger Ogden and Don Perez congratulating them and asked if they would host a tour of their new digs. I will let you all know if I hear back from them. I am looking forward to seeing what they have done beyond their big set with the phoney TV screens in the background.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Hey Trip,

You're from out of town, and you're still young, so I'll cut you some slack. But if you're going to equate voting Bush with stupidity, you might want to pick another state. Colorado's generally on the conservative side of things. Of course, the crux of this issue is that Golden is full of hippies (must be the overflow from Boulder [no offense jm :D]). They're the ones that are messing things up for all of us.

Hey, I never said Kerry was any good either, did I? Or Gore for that matter. I'm also in a conservative state. Hippies give liberals a bad name (but they aren't the only ones).

I'm not liberal either, but when it comes down to it, I had to go with the lesser of two evils.

Yes, KUSA is the fourth station in the country to do local HD news. When they made their first HD newscast (February?), they claimed to be the 2nd in the nation. They were corrected by me, and likely by others. Today, on their official HD launch, they didn't say "4th in the nation", they said "1st in Colorado". I guess that had a better ring to it. And that's fine. They've made a huge accomplishment, and hopefully it'll translate to more HD set sales and more pressure on sCARE/JeffCo to get the LCG tower built.

Ah, I see. Everyone knows about WRAL, but I don't know how many are aware of the Seattle ones. I can't even remember which two... I'm pretty sure KING is one of them, but I'm not sure about the other.

And I don't think you'll find any arguments here that people opposing the tower have faulty logic at best. Some of the opponents are under the impression that when NTSC OTA goes away, so will the towers. Once you shoot that argument down, they're left with name-calling and hand-wringing as their only arguments. Typical liberals (hey, you started it :p)

Do a lot of them use cell phones? There are acutal scientific studies that show cell phones actually DO harm the brain (though I don't remember the specifics, and I think it's only temporary unless it's used a LOT). Why doesn't someone tell them that. When they get that cell phone away from their ears, then they can start talking about the towers.

And you got me on that one. But as my signature says, I run a liberal-leaning comedy site (small now, but I have dreams for it; and I do try to take shots at both sides when I can) and I had just come up with some great ideas before I put up this message. I was on a roll. That's why I said I couldn't resist.

- Trip

Originally posted by DP1
Where you coming up with the 5000 number? If we're talking strictly OTA viewers you're probably close enough. But for the last 6 or 7 months Comcast has been offering KUSA in HD. Since cable has about 70% penetration on average and all it takes (if your neighborhood is upgraded to HD capability) is a phone call to upgrade to an HD STB from a run of the mill digital STB what makes you think a lot of people that have HD ready sets, but never bothered with buying an OTA tuner to go with it havent called up Comcast and said.."plug me in to HD"?

5000 was an OTA (ATSC) estimate.

I think if you call Comcast you'll find that the number of cable subscribers who've requested HD cable boxes is somewhat minimal as well; even today you often have to find the "right" person in the Comcast office to even know what you're talking about, though it's getting better.

The ATSC situation isn't going to improve, however. If you walk into Best Buy or Soundtrack you'll only find one ATSC tuner on the shelves, and even then it's "special order" only.

The only retailer I know of that actually stocks ATSC tuners that aren't ATSC/D* receivers is Circuit City.

However once the ATSC mandates go into full effect, there are going to be lots of people with new HDTVs wondering why they can't get that HDTV signal, especially since they've been watching KUSA prattle on endlessly about it...

(Most entertaining part of watching 9 News this morning was seeing them close the broadcast with the 16:9 graphics so the end of the regular OTA broadcast had a giant "(half of a 9) New" across the 4:3 screen...

Originally posted by Trip in VA
Do a lot of them use cell phones? There are acutal scientific studies that show cell phones actually DO harm the brain (though I don't remember the specifics, and I think it's only temporary unless it's used a LOT). Why doesn't someone tell them that. When they get that cell phone away from their ears, then they can start talking about the towers.
science, schmience, Trip. The folks we're dealing with have acquired total immunity to logic and facts. And I think most of them support Kucinich, not Kerry.

I was looking for cell phones at the hearings last year. To be honest, I don't recall seeing any of the sCAREd folks with one.

I also chuckled at the stretched 16:9 image at the end of the 6am news this morning. I'm sure they'll get it fixed for tomorrow.

Originally posted by dr_mal
.......But if you're going to equate voting Bush with stupidity, you might want to pick another state. Colorado's generally on the conservative side of things. Of course, the crux of this issue is that Golden is full of hippies (must be the overflow from Boulder [no offense jm :D]). They're the ones that are messing things up for all of us.
Offense taken anyway. (Hey, you invited my comment!)
:D
As a liberal from Boulder, I will point out that I was one of the first to be watching HD (my set is nearly 5 years old now), although it was indeed from C/Ku Band satellite gear. So that pretty much shoots down your liberals are anti-HD argument. As for Boulder exporting liberals, the state could do worse, spend a day listening to KOA radio and tell me some balance isn't in order.

At any rate, not to turn this in to a political war, I must point out that it is more likely 'conservative capitalists' who provide the drive behind the NIMBY's down in Golden. We all know the major reason behind the anti-tower push is that the people living there would like to see their property values skyrocket after they eliminate the towers. Using false information to deceive the public and justify a cause in order to achieve a self interest and significant financial gain at the expense of the general public sounds a lot more like a trait currently running rampant in Washington DC. I will leave it to you to figure out who I mean (hint, there are some of these folks in the White House).........

"Mission Accomplished"
:D

(You picked a bad day to pick on Boulder, I just saw the play "1984" at Fairview HS last night. It was the spring play, and they did a real nice job. Needless to say I am in a feisty mood today.)

Well enjoy the tour guys if one gets setup.

ROFLMAO.

I guess I'm also still in the haven't converted to 9 News from CBS 4 yet camp.

I may go to the tour and count the number of times I hear "9 News, leading the way in HDTV". As much as that statement bugs me, I do agree that the statement is now true and KUSA deserves to be congratulated.

Don

John, I'm a little cranky this morning too (Was it a full moon?).

OK, Now it's time to start bugging KTVD20. Everyone else has at least made some effort to transmit DTV. They've not done one thing! Sorry, but you cannot keep hiding behind... "we'll be on the air real soon when the tower gets built" BS.

Oh, and it's still OK to keep b*tching at KMGH too.

I figure KTVD will be broadcasting in HD just about the same time they cancel "Enterprise" :)

Oh, and as to the conversation on whether it's liberals or conservatives who are more against the towers, I would say that greed and selfishness are not owned by any party - I bet all those folks make sure their kids have cellphones 24/7.

JP

Originally posted by JMartinko
Offense taken anyway. (Hey, you invited my comment!)
:D
As a liberal from Boulder, I will point out that I was one of the first to be watching HD (my set is nearly 5 years old now), although it was indeed from C/Ku Band satellite gear. So that pretty much shoots down your liberals are anti-HD argument.
I never said liberals were anti-DTV. I specifically said the hippies in Golden are anti-DTV. :D

I called Greg Armstrong, KTVD GM, yesterday and left him a voice mail asking about his DTV plans in the near term. I'll post back here if/when he calls me back.

I specifically said the hippies in Golden are anti-DTV. Hey, I live in Golden! ;)

And please let's keep the political rhetoric out of here. I don't want to hear it or read it in this thread.

I got a reply this morning from Don Perez at KUSA regarding a tour:


Thank you for your note. I would be happy to give you and the AVS folks a tour. Let's look for a date that could work in mid-May. I will get back to you with some suggestions. Keep watching HD on 9News, we will continue to evolve our systems. Again, thank you for the note.


I will keep everyone posted as we get a date firmed up. If you are interested, you might send me a PM or post your interest so we can get an estimated head count.

Dennis,

I would be interested!

Since I watch local newscasts fairly regularly, HD news would be a big draw for me. I'm not currently all that loyal to any particular station's newscast.

Too bad I have absolutely no way to get KUSA-DT.

Mark

Originally posted by JMartinko
(You picked a bad day to pick on Boulder, I just saw the play "1984" at Fairview HS last night. It was the spring play, and they did a real nice job. Needless to say I am in a feisty mood today.) My wife and I are going to see "1984" tonight, John - glad to hear the good review! And live performances are even higher resolution than 1080p.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi



I will keep everyone posted as we get a date firmed up. If you are interested, you might send me a PM or post your interest so we can get an estimated head count.

Depending on how the date would fall with my work schedule, I am interested as well.

Don sent me a note saying that late afternoon/early evening would be best. If so, we would get to see the set being used for an actual newscast which would be fun.

So, far three want to go (including me).

Watching their report last night on HDTV, I was shocked to hear them say...(and don't quote me exactly).....

70% of electronic sales this year in Colorado have been for HDTV sets. They estimated either 70,000 or 90,000 HD sets are currently in use in Colorado. (I was leaving the house to go to my daughters school play, ot I would have recorded it on my Dish 921). They also explained to people about STB's, internal Digital tuners, cable, and showed a yagi style antenna, claiming just pointing it towards downtown (Republic) would do the trick unless you were in Ft. Collins/Loveland. Then it was only a matter of months before "everyone" could get the signal. (Made me feel like I was buying a used car).

BTW, I did see the images from Sky9 HD, and it was FREAKING AWESOME! Say what you will about Denver's "leader," but at least they are planting a seed, and starting to make the other stations in Denver look behind the curve. (*NUDGE-NUDGE* KDVR and KMGH)

I dumped my RAT SHACK Yagi, and went back to my omni-directional, and am getting a much better signal. If anyone wants a $27.00 Radio Shack UHF antenna, I'd part with it for 5 or 10 bucks, if you come pick it up.

I'd also like to go to the tour, and meet/thank some of you for helping me get my HD setup at home.

Will Kathy Sabin be there? :)

DennisMileHi
I suspect that many here will wait to hear a date before they sign up to attend. I wouldn't worry too much, my experience in setting up other tours in previous years is that people tend to come out of the woodwork to attend things once they have the details. I think nearly all of the other tours the group has attended were late afternoon or early evening. That seems to be the best time for people to be available. I usually scheduled things to start just before rush hour and end just after is was over. That way most folks could get in the day's work, leave a bit early and get in to town before the traffic was bad, and head home in the evening when traffic was over and family business was about to start. Just my $0.02 from previous events.

Personally I would have to give some thought as to whether I would be willing to accept any offer from KUSA, but my history here goes back a long way and there is a LOT of bad blood involved with some of the locals that others my not have. I suspect there are several others here likely to have similar problems with the KUSA offer. Not sure how I will settle out on this one.

I'm interested in attending a tour of 9News. Thanks Dennis for getting the ball rolling on this.

Dennis,
You can count me in to attend the KUSA tour. Thanks for getting it arranged.

Originally posted by Geof
Well enjoy the tour guys if one gets setup.

I don't have an extra airsick bag so I will definitely pass on this....

Originally posted by JackinThornton
They also explained to people about STB's, internal Digital tuners, cable, and showed a yagi style antenna, claiming just pointing it towards downtown (Republic) would do the trick unless you were in Ft. Collins/Loveland.

I sure wish I could share in the enthusiasm or have the fortune to just point an antenna towards RP - I've tried, but it points into the sides of other houses higher on the hill - oh, I guess they forgot to mention that some houses would need a mast high enough to require a blinking red light on it. The immunity to logic isn't all on the sCARE's part, after all, why wait until the LCG2 gets shot down to take Jeffco/Golden to court regarding the analog to digital switch-over. Wouldn't it even help now to have that clarified? Then, since LCG does everything in series, the FCC is brought in after both of those battles are lost and fights more in the courts - and maybe they lose as well. (Opps, where's those rose-tinted glesses I used to wear?...) There's three groups - legal, Lookout residents, and DTV viewers. One is getting alot richer, one has plans to get alot richer, and one waits forever -- and ever -- and ever. I won't say which is which.

It would help if the courts and Jeffco only only allow comments from sCARE that are solely relevant to the new tower data, and not a rehash of the old tripe, but that probably won't happen either.

I'd love to go on a tour of the 9News studios. Any day in May except the 13th-16th would be fine with me.

I am also interested in a 9news tour, depending on the date/time that is scheduled.

As long as we are on the subject, can someone 'splain to this liberal (who bought a HDTV in 1999) how the digital signal will improve the NTSC broadcast?

I understand and often witness the reverse: when 1080i is downconverted to 480i by my STB, it produces a nice, clean signal.

But isn't the analog signal that comes into my Sony via VHF antenna subject to all the problems and degradation as before there was a digital signal?

Or am I just another stupid liberal?

I think they just mean that when the source programming is captured with HD Cams to begin with that it's a better image in general even if sent out on the analog side. Not that it has anything to do with the fact that they happen to be sending out a seperate digital signal as well.

I dont know that they're suggesting that like daytime talk shows on the analog side will suddenly look better because of their H/DTV efforts. Only things like the news where the HD Cams are used.

I'm interested in the tour as well. Looking forward to seeing a date and time.

I don't know exactly how the stations downconversion of HD signal to send out as analog helps, but there is no doubt we've seen the difference. We don't watch much Primetime TV, and unless I'm home, it is analog. I've been noticing for quite a while here that the 9News PQ is far superior to 4 or 7 newscasts, even on the Analog station. Of course, when I get there I change over to the HD signal, and then it looks even better.

Thanks, Greg

Count me in as interested in the 9News tour. Basement refinishing will be done in a couple weeks and I should be able to get the HT rig up and running shortly thereafter. I won't have HD right away, as I am researching antennas and OTA STBs, but I'm interested in getting the scoop.

Don Perez suggests that Thursday, May 13th showing up before 5:30 would be good. Unless I hear back from too many people (sorry, Tim F!), we will go with that. For those of you who already said you want to go, just reply back ONLY if that time won't work.

I would assume that 20 or so people would come, but I'll keep track of the signups. We would get to watch the 6 PM news broadcast.

I'll be there, Dennis!

Dennis, that time sounds good to me as well. Chock up another for the tour.

Thanks!

Is there any way he can do it on a different day? This is something I would really like to go on, but I am going out of town that afternoon.

Tim. Sorry.

This looks like the best day for all of us as well as KUSA. I am sure that Don would let you come down anytime and take a personal 'tour.' Or, at least watch a 9news HD broadcast.

Would you like me to ask him for a followup date later for people who can't come on the 13th?

Just a note for those who have never been to KUSA - while the building does have a parking lot, it's guarded and also can't hold 20+ "extra" cars, so you will have to park on the street somewhere around the station. I've been there several times (though I haven't seen the HD studio) and it's really pretty cool.

BTW, to address an earlier comment re: "HD Doppler" - HD is just a cool term; the software does not (and does not need to) generate a 16:9 image. By definition, RADAR coverage is circular, so a 16:9 RADAR display would either have superfluous information on the sides or would be cutting off data in order to "zoom into" a 16:9 area of the circle radar information was available for.

In the future, software may generate 16:9 data for the "city street" mode they sometimes use, but for images like those available on the NWS web sites, 16:9 would make no sense...

(Also, am I the only one that thinks they would get more promotion value out of their HD transition if they would do the news or at least show things like the copter shots in 16:9 on their analog broadcast, since that's how most people think of HD anyway?)

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Don Perez suggests that Thursday, May 13th showing up before 5:30 would be good. Unless I hear back from too many people (sorry, Tim F!), we will go with that. For those of you who already said you want to go, just reply back ONLY if that time won't work.

I would assume that 20 or so people would come, but I'll keep track of the signups. We would get to watch the 6 PM news broadcast.

Hmm...that's perfect, count me in as well. Now finding a place to park.

Originally posted by Geof
I don't have an extra airsick bag so I will definitely pass on this.... I'll be returning to CO this w/e -- so I'll grab a bag off the plane.

Count me in as well, Dennis.

My schedule is completely open on 5/13, so count me in!

Thanks Dennis,

Steve

Originally posted by Geof
And please let's keep the political rhetoric out of here. I don't want to hear it or read it in this thread.

Don't you think page 263 is a little late to make this comment?
;)

Originally posted by Tweakophyte
Don't you think page 263 is a little late to make this comment?
;) Not with all the crap that was recently posted. I personally don't care if an individual is left, right, or center but I don't want to hear it or read it in this thread. This is not the place for those types of discussions.
From the forum rules:You agree to not use the Service to:


a.__ upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable. AVS Forum is not the place for debate on religion, sex, politics, or other such controversial posts; and this is not the place to talk about illegal downloads or how to obtain them. There are several forums on the Internet dedicated for discussing this type of material. This is not one of them.It may be debatable if a debate ensured resulting from some of the off hand comments posted above but when the comments were commented on dialog was certainly occurring.

Originally posted by RonAuger
I'll be returning to CO this w/e -- so I'll grab a bag off the plane.

Count me in as well, Dennis. I must admit I'm very curious to see the setup but I've had my fill of KUSA and will pass on the tour.

Dennis, I sent you a PM yesterday for two for the tour.

Thanks for arranging it.

KDVR-DT is currently broadcasting a test pattern. For some reason the 16:9 markers aren't fitting in my screen properly, no matter which output mode I select. On the left side of the screen I can just barely see the "16:9" text, and on the right side I only see "16:" and then the rest goes off the screen.

I have a 4:3 Sony KV40-XBR800 that has a 16:9 mode which is automatically engaged when it detects a widescreen source. This has me wondering if the sides are being clipped off all widescreen programming, or if there's just something about this particular broadcast that's not quite right.

Has anyone else tuned into this test pattern? If so, how does it appear on your screen?

I guess I was too late -- regular programming on KDVR-DT now :(

Ah well, thanks for checking anyway!

On another note, it appears that 12-2 and 12-3 are again exhibiting the same symptoms as last week (Camp KBDI bug on 12-2, "Video Lock Error" on 12-3.) Maybe Squaw really ISN'T suitable for DTV broadcasts if they get knocked off the air every time it snows! :D

So am I the only one here that can actually pick up KMGH?

Oh hi - new to this forum - My name is Keith and I live in Englewood near Broadway and Hampton, just about a direct shot downtown. I can pick up KMGH with a rooftop RS antenna on my HTPC's FusionHDTV card (68% signal strength vs. KUSA 98%)

I just wanted to gripe about the fact that I called KMGH on Friday to ask if today's Avalanche game would be in HD. It was not listed as HD on TitanTV, but neither was the NHL All Star game, yet it was.

I was told it would be in high definition - not even a hesitation by the woman who answered the phone. So of course I invited everyone to come over and watch the game in HD.

So today what do I see - standard def on their (poorly) upscaled 720p channel (and for those that are unaware, they also have a bandwidth wasting 480i sub channel on all the time also). I don't know why, but whenever they scale standard definition material to 720P, it is off centered upward, so much so that part of the score was cut off at the top of the screen.

I called the station during the game and talked to master control and the guy wasn't aware that it was to be in HD but would check. No HD. Guess ABC had the Calgary/Detroit game in HD instead.

Well, anyway - good to meet you all. Dr Mal - I'm envious of your new TiVo. I have a standard DirecTiVo and the HD version will be the only HD DirecTV box I'm willing to upgrade to. That donut looks good as well.

Ohhh, just saw an ad on 7 - Harry Potter will be on ABC May 9th - that will be cool in HD (just rubbing it in Dr. Mal - you have the Tivo, I have ABC) as long as I can stand all the commercials.

-Keith

Count me in for the tour. If anyone in the Aurora area wants to carpool, it might be a good idea with the parking situation. PM/post if interested.

Keith,

Welcome to our "little" thread. Nice gallery pictures. Is that a dedicated room, or is it bigger than the pictures show? Yep, we are all jealous/annoyed that you get KMGH and we don't.

Dr. Mal,

It took me a couple of months to realize that you were actually holding a donut in your picture. For the longest time, it looked to me like some weird African-style lip disk. I had forgotten to mention it until Keith's comment. :p

Originally posted by stansell
...............
I called the station during the game and talked to master control and the guy wasn't aware that it was to be in HD but would check. No HD. Guess ABC had the Calgary/Detroit game in HD instead.................
-Keith
ABC did not do any hockey in HD today. Both games were in SD only. AFAIK ABC will likely do the finals and 'perhaps' a game or two in the conference finals. They still haven't announced a definitive schedule. If you want HD for the Avs you will have to see if they will be on ESPN HD. The ESPN page currently shows only tomorrow's Flyers/Leafs game in HD for the moment. Of course for the remaining game(s??) in this round, even if the game is in HD, they would be blacked out locally since the game(s??) are either on UPN 20 or FSRM. Basically, if they don't get out of this round against the Sharks, Avs fans in the metro area who want HD Avs telecasts are SOL until, or if, there is hockey next year.

The forum thread for the latest information is at:
AVS 2004 NHL Playoffs in HD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=390334)

Originally posted by bikenski
KDVR-DT is currently broadcasting a test pattern. For some reason the 16:9 markers aren't fitting in my screen properly, no matter which output mode I select. On the left side of the screen I can just barely see the "16:9" text, and on the right side I only see "16:" and then the rest goes off the screen.

...

Has anyone else tuned into this test pattern? If so, how does it appear on your screen?

I have seen this test pattern before. I think is sometimes appears when the Fox feed goes inactive and someone forgets to switch back to locally-originated programming.

Anyway, when I have seen it, it looked much as you described when viewed on my Toshiba RPTV--shifted right, and not all of the 16:9 area on screen. I assumed my set had too much overscan, and I even adjusted my set to reduce overscan slightly, but it was too difficult to reduce it much and keep straight lines straight. Maybe their test pattern doesn't account for typical overscan.

Mark

I'f I'm in town on the 13th, so far so good. I'd like to go on the KUSA tour.



....I wish KRMA would change their schedule to show us Smart Traveler's again. I'm Johnsen on that show. I sent them e-mails and called them..... no response.

I've noticed it on the test pattern when it was left on after a football game, and it would appear that in order to accomplish the 4:3 -> 14:9 stretch, they end up stretching 16:9 to something like 17:9, so we get 16:9 slightly stretched and cropped. At least the stretch isn't as bad as the 4:3 stretch (which gets cropped also on my 4:3 SD sets).

Welcome Keith. I also get KMGH but with just enough signal to have it be barely watchable. But they are not responsive to most requests and comments. IE, they don't really care about our small audience and deserve their overall last place rating in Denver.

I now count 18 people who have said they are coming to the KUSA tour on May 13th. Anybody else? I will ask Don Perez what he recommends on the parking issue.

Please add me to the tour list. I thought I was going out of town, but now I will be here - Thanks!

P.S. I'm coming in from Golden, if anybody out this way wants to car pool. Email me at: santella@frii.net

Thanks Dennis for putting the KUSA tour together.

I am a go for Thursday, May 13 at 5:30.

Don

Originally posted by squidboy

Keith,

Welcome to our "little" thread. Nice gallery pictures. Is that a dedicated room, or is it bigger than the pictures show? Yep, we are all jealous/annoyed that you get KMGH and we don't.

Dr. Mal,

It took me a couple of months to realize that you were actually holding a donut in your picture. For the longest time, it looked to me like some weird African-style lip disk. I had forgotten to mention it until Keith's comment. :p

It is a cozy dedicated room. It was an 11` x 13' bedroom in my basement that I was using as a workout room. During a boring leg workout, I decided it would make a great home theater. Ten pounds (on the mid-section), a couple of gallons of Midnight Blue paint and a couple of holes in the sheet rock between the room and the closet later and voila' - a home theater.

I too at first thought Dr. Mal was some sort of modern primitive with a lip plate before figuring out it was a chocolate glazed donut.

I guess it is safe to assume no HD hocky unless given 3 forms of notorized written proof and a personal letter from Micheal Eisner himself

Oh well. At least ABC is good about showing HD movies - I noticed twister was only standard def on NBC last night. I think their big 10.5 made for TV disaster movie will also be standard def.

All this talk about donuts has made me hungry. Thanks a lot guys :D

Originally posted by santellavision
P.S. I'm coming in from Golden...
I would be careful about admitting to that while at KUSA. :D

Your right! I may be the ONLY Golden resident in favor of the towers!

I wish I had a dollar for everytime I was asked by my neighbors and had to tell them the 'true story'... not the complete and ridiculous fabrications by (S)Care. These people really believe their BS!

Can anyone explain why all of my OTA DTV signals have superior PQ to my locals from E* w/ the exception of one program, 9 AM news, on one station, KDVR. The full desk shots of Libby and Ron on 31-1 (32) are all washed-out. My wife gets so upset when this is on she changes over to local Fox on E*. What's the story here? Any other local broadcast looks much sharper, clearer, and color-true via OTA DTV rather than E*.

Regarding the future of OTA HDTV demand and sales of STBs, I think you also need to consider the number of DBS STBs out there that also have ATSC tuners. The "sell-out" success of "Silver Sensors" means somebody is trying to get HDTV OTA.

Also, at least in Metro-Denver, if you ask the retailers about OTA DTV when looking to buy an HD-ready set, they generally are clueless. It's like they want to steer you to satellite or cable. A little more honest information in the media about OTA DTV might interest a lot more folks into trying to get some real use out of their new HD-ready TVs. Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by CEB II
Can anyone explain why all of my OTA DTV signals have superior PQ to my locals from E* w/ the exception of one program, 9 AM news, on one station, KDVR. To your first question, OTA DTV is superior to E* locals becaust there is a whole lot less compression. As for your second question, I don't think KDVR has put much effort into their digital signal and it shows - so much so that even the E* compression of their analog signal looks better. If I want to see the news at 9, I always go to KWGN instead of KDVR for just that reason.

Hey everyone, I just moved to Denver and signed up with Comcast HD. I've got a used Samsung SIR-TS160 and triple lnb dish to sell now if anyone is interested.

If this is an inappropriate post, let me know and I'll delete it, or the mods can. I figured someone here might be interested, and I'd rather sell it locally than ebay and ship it. PM me for price.

I can't commit to the 13th -- my boss is in town that week. I hope he will be back on the plane by then! We will see!

What's our chances of seeing the Avs in HD at 6PM on Tuesday? I've noticed that no one else seems to be picking up the game so far (no FSRM, No UPN). I saw this statement on ESPN's HD site. ESPN lists Tuesday at 6PM as NHL SC playoffs to be announced.

"As teams win and lose in NBA and NHL post-season play, the ESPN HD schedule for April and May will likely change on a daily basis as ESPN HD works to position our high definition facilities in the various participating cities. Check this web site often for the most current schedule updates. "

Dick Kreck's view of HDTV in the Denver Post. I wish I could say that it is knowlegeable and informative.

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~120~2122198,00.html

Originally posted by Greg T
What's our chances of seeing the Avs in HD at 6PM on Tuesday? I've noticed that no one else seems to be picking up the game so far (no FSRM, No UPN). I saw this statement on ESPN's HD site. ESPN lists Tuesday at 6PM as NHL SC playoffs to be announced.

The Denver Post this morning lists the game on FSRM, and thus it would blacked out locally even if ESPN picks it up as an HD telecast. Sorry.

ESPN will have the Avs game as an SD broadcast anyway (still blacked out).

Gotcha Ron! Top-o'-the-page!
:D

I've decided top-of-the-page was too much pressure -- I'm going for second-on-the-page now ;)
(go with what you're best at)

D@mn! Now the ESPN HD Schedule (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tvlistings/espnhd/index) shows the Avs game tomorrow night is in HD. I know the paper shows FSRM has the game but TitanTV still shows FSRM showing "Baseball: Diamondbacks at Cubs". I don't image FSRM would not air the Avs game so I can see it in HD on ESPN?! :rolleyes:

It almost makes it worth "moving" your DirecTV service address to an area outside of Denver for a couple days (now that I'm getting my locals OTA).

Oh wait -- I need UPN on D* so I can catch Enterprise. :(

According to the Avs website, tomorrows game is on fox sports Rocky Mountain, and Thursdays (hopefully necessary) will be on UPN 20.

I don't know exactly where "the line" (for ESPN blackout) is, but when I was in Winter Park for the game last Monday, I was able to watch it on ESPN even though it was also on FSRM?? So, maybe I need to "move" to Winter Park tomorrow!

This blackout crap is really started to wear me thin. The people that want to see the games the most get to see it in it's NTSC splender.
I noticed also that the AVS site has FSRM listed as the game carrier for Tuesday. Although, TitanTV (no very reliable) or FSRM's website list the AVS game tomorrow.


Any news from anyone on Sound Track's DirecTV HDtivo? They were suppose to arrive at their warehouse today 5/3.

Originally posted by mknoebel
According to the Avs website, tomorrows game is on fox sports Rocky Mountain, and Thursdays (hopefully necessary) will be on UPN 20.

I don't know exactly where "the line" (for ESPN blackout) is, but when I was in Winter Park for the game last Monday, I was able to watch it on ESPN even though it was also on FSRM?? So, maybe I need to "move" to Winter Park tomorrow!
AFAIK, the blackout is over a radius of 50 miles of the Pepsi Center, give or take a few miles depending upon your provider. Hence people in C. Springs, Vail, etc. are not blacked out. They usually tend to err on the side of the local broadcaster, so if you are on or near the line they likely black you out anyway just to be safe. It also sells more subs to the local sports networks, so obviously it is in the best interest of the providers to 'stretttttch' the blackout as far as they can.

According to mapquest, I'm 57 miles from the Pepsi Center. "As the crow flies" I'm sure you can knock off 7 miles, which is why I'm blacked out in Greeley. Winter Park is at 68 miles, so that explains why I was able to watch it up there.

Just called and spoke to someone at Kroenke Sports (why do I always forget to get a contact name?).

I asked if they have plans to produce/broadcast Avalanche games in HD next season. They don't know yet.

I explained the situation with tomorrow's game, where someone is producing it in HD, but we can't see it locally. I asked if Altitude Sports will take those situations into account next year and maybe let local viewers see the team in HD. She told me right now the team has no control and to call Fox Sports Net and let them know how we feel. Of course, we know tomorrow's game is out of Altitude's control, but I specifically asked her to take these kind of situations into account for next season. She said right now it's way too early for those kinds of decisions, but I was free to call back in June and ask for an update then.

If nothing else, hopefully I've planted a seed there and they'll start thinking about this.

Talked to Steve something-or-other at Fox Sports Net. They'll definitely be showing the game in Denver, but we have to ask the guys at ESPN about possible blackouts. At this point, it doesn't seem worth the effort. If FSN is showing it, we'll get screwed. Steve was sympathetic to the situation, and assured me it was a matter of "when", not "if" they upgrade to HD. He seemed to be oblivious to the fact that FSN won't have Avs broadcast rights next year though. He was very polite, and did not at all seem ignorant about HD.

dr_mal
In my mind, the bigger (and scarrier) issue with the advent of ASEN (Altitude Sports & Entertainment Network as it is advertised on "The Fan 950 AM") is the "what if". By that I mean, what if they indeed do decide to produce the local telecasts in HD. This is currently done in Philly, New York, and Boston, and next year in Washington, Chicago, and I think I read in Tampa although that may be wrong. There may be some others I have missed. At any rate, ALL of those cities use only cable and land lines for the HD feeds (Boston uses a digicipher satellite feed to the area cablecos that is not available for outside subscriptions). As we all know, none of these regional HD networks is available on any of the current dbs services, only the SD version. My concern is that unless a service like D* makes the HD feeds available next year on the new transponders as a part of the NHL Center Ice Package (similar to what they did this year with the NFL Sunday Ticket), there will be no way to watch any Avs or Nuggets games next year from your local ASEN network unless you add a Comcast subscription to your already overloaded array of receivers. I, for one, am not interested in adding cable to get one HD channel, especially since I am sure you will have to subscribe to a whole bunch of stuff just to get the regional sports HD channel from Comcast.

Of course, it leads me to wonder another 'what if'. What if the local cableco's or sat providers were to use location (channel) 9 for this HD channel. Wouldn't that make this whole HD channel ASENINE (pardon the spelling)?
:D

PS Edit
dr_mal, Glad to see you were able to pry yourself away from your new HD Tivo toy long enough to call Kroenke. Does that mean it really isn't as great as advertised????

Yeah, that's a concern of mine as well. I will not subscribe to Comcast. Not that I have anything in particular against Comcast, but you can have my HD TiVo when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. I have no reason to watch anything without TiVo.

I guess I'm hoping for one of two things that make way too much sense to ever happen: 1) D* spot beams ASEN-HD to Denver 2) ASEN leases a digital channel that isn't being used for HD broadcasting (like the shopping or religious channels) during Avs/Nuggets HD games so we can get games free OTA.

I will concede that I think it's most likely that Comcast ends up with ASEN-HD exclusively until D* and E* get a whole lot more bandwidth.

Well, it all may be a moot point anyway if the NHL has a "work stoppage" next season...

Dan

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Well, it all may be a moot point anyway if the NHL has a "work stoppage" next season...

Dan
Point well taken unless we want to watch some Nuggets games to fill in the downtime waiting for hockey. I tend to agree we likely won't see hockey next year anyway. I watch a lot of the CBC game feeds rather than US feeds, and the consensus from most Canadian Hockey experts is to forget next year and just hope they can get it together in time for the following season to start. Unless some real breakthrough occurs soon, I don't think we will see next season. The players and the owners can't even agree on the 'books'. The players think the owners are not releasing the true financial records, and the owners claim nearly all of the franchises are losing money. It is going to be impossible to negotiate a salary cap or players agreement until they at least can agree on the correct financial numbers the franchises make.
But the Nuggets will still be playing.

One hope we can hold out in all of this though, is that nearly all of the Denver stations have been available on C-Band for years (SD only-I watched them during the years I was stranded in Philly in order to maintain my sanity following the Broncos) due to the fact that there are so many small mountain towns and resorts that it is just to expensive to 'cable' or microwave all of those channels over Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico and so forth to areas without local service. We might hold out hope that ASEN would have to provide a full time satellite HD feed for all of these resorts, unlike the larger east coast cities where cable and fiber distribution can cover the area of service. I am NOT holding my breath though, that they would necessarily make that 'feed' available in a format the public can receive.

Geez Fellas! I go away for a while and come back only to find that you have all gone "post-crazy"! It took me over an hour just to get caught up, whew!

Sign me up for the 13th as well (as of now I should be home).

OK Here is the current list for KUSA on Thu 5/13 at 5 PM:

DennisMileHi
mbuchana
jackinthorton
dr_mal
lawood
MRinDenver
gkanders
jhawk92
markdl
ByH2O
RonAuger
Phil T (2)
b5lurker
squidboy
Greg T
santellavision
donyoop
jetlag
couch potato
oxothuk
David Levin

If I missed anyone, sorry. That is 22 people and should be no problem. I will ask Don about parking and cameras.

I watched the last AVS game in HD on espn and it was on Fox at the same time.

I think the blackout is lifted if the showing is in HD.

Most likely because the advertisers know that only so many will have a HD TV and they are not really loosing much in the way of viewers for their ("stay in the game", "get more wood", "male enhancement", beer, beer, beer, truck, truck, truck, and then again, "make the misses happy with male performance pills", etc.)

Believe me THAT is the main concern. Revenue generated from commercials.

If espn shows it in HD you most likely would see it regardless of Fox showings.

The last Avs game that was on ESPN was on nationally on ESPN -- Fox didn't have local broadcast rights for it. Tonight, Fox does have the rights.

HD Avs games from both ESPN-HD and HDNet have been blacked out here when Fox is airing them in beautiful 4:3 480i crapvision.

so? the game tonight isn't NATIONAL?

I thought it was getting a lot of attention.

not enough to garner those east coast folks huh?

well...if they win it'll seem like HD to us!

Tonight's game will be on ESPN nationally except in Denver and San Jose, where it will be on the regional sports networks. The rest of the country gets to see the Avs (and Sharks) in HD; we don't.

Maybe we need to pick up our dish and receiver and move to a point a 100 miles away .... just for the evening. But be sure to tell D* or E* that you have a new service address when you do.

As dr_mal stated, as long as FSRM (tonight) or UPN 20 (like the game on Thursday) have the rights to the game you WILL be blacked out of the HD feed unless you get your receiver "relocated" to another area outside the blackout region or have special capabilities beyond the usual setups. For example, TSN in Canada sometimes picks up the ESPN HD feeds if they broadcast the game. Tonight the CBC will have the Flyers/Leafs game and although I don't have the schedule in front of me, I will bet that TSN will be showing the Avs game from ESPN. Whether they pick up the HD feed with the SD feed tonight is a TSN option AFAIK, and I don't know the answer to that right now. So, if you had a 'home' in Canada, you might have that option available to you. You will not see tonights game or Thursdays game (if necessary) in HD unless you have one of the 'unusual' options available to you. The last Avs HD game was an ESPN exclusive, Fox and/or UPN 20 did not have the rights.

FWIW, after this round of the playoffs, all of the rights to the games AFAIK, shift to ESPN and ABC. I don't believe the local sports nets have any rights to any conference finals or finals games.

Dennis-
Looks like job requirements will make it impossible for me to get to the tour next week, so please open up my slot for someone else. Hopefully I'll be able to catch the next one.

As a possible idea, would Fridays work? I work 9/80 week, so get every other Friday off. Just a thought. Thanks for organizing this.

The Avs/Sharks game will be on TSN-HD tonight for those with a summer home in Canada. I can't tell by the guide whether it will be in HD or not. Fingers crossed for an HD victory!
;)

ok, oK, OK!!

I'll just be glad when the whole world is in HD.

When even the most mundane is High Definition.

When discussions like these are no more.

Don Perez responded to me about the tour:


Thanks....If people arrive after 5PM the parking lot next to the station should be fairly open and it should workout. People can also park behind the station on 3rd Ave....They can bring still cameras, but I would rather not have video cameras. As you mentioned, we should not be taking pix's during the newscast. I will make sure there is a picture opportunity. I may first give an overview, then move to the studio and you can watch the newscast, then take a tour. ....Thanks for your efforts!


Just be sure to show up by 5:30 please. There is room for us all.

Not my game to have the tickets, but FWIW, the Avs sucked just as bad in HD last night as they probably did in SD. The HD helped reveal the lack of passion in their eyes a bit better though. Great job from $60M worth of hockey talent! Bah Humbug! Oh well, at least we won't be watching the "dead Wings" and Canucks as well.
:mad:

On the bright side Avs fans, at least there won't be any more issues with blacked-out ESPN HD games this season. All remaining ESPN HD games should be available in this market.

Hi All,

I got my Direct Tivo from Sound Track today. I ordered it at the University store and they allowed me to pick it up at the warehouse. Actually, the lady (Helen) maning the warehouse phone told me I could. A few more conference calls, and I'm off to play with it.

Originally posted by Greg T
Hi All,

I got my Direct Tivo from Sound Track today. I ordered it at the University store and they allowed me to pick it up at the warehouse. Actually, the lady (Helen) maning the warehouse phone told me I could. A few more conference calls, and I'm off to play with it. Good for you.
I'm hoping to have mine tomorrow (I was cheap and only paid for Ground shipping from VE). I do have a bit of doubt it will get here tomorrow though as the street address is hosed up (it says Rand instead of Ranch) and UPS will not make any notations about address changes until the first delivery is attempted. Even so, after reading about how slow the guide is I am not sure I really want it.....

Two tips on the guide:

1) switch to the TiVo-style (I think it's called "List Style" now) guide. It's much faster
2) guide? What's a guide? Honestly, I use the on-screen guide very rarely since going TiVo.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Two tips on the guide:

1) switch to the TiVo-style (I think it's called "List Style" now) guide. It's much faster
2) guide? What's a guide? Honestly, I use the on-screen guide very rarely since going TiVo. Yes, from what I've read the List Guide is much faster. It also isn't my cup of tea (from looking at the manual). I just have to get the TiVo and try it out. If the worst comes to pass and it and I are "not suitable" I'll put it up on eBay and recoup my funds or use it strictly for recording and use another STB for surfing.

I have antenna in my attic, and Sunday it all of sudden stopped working. I watched part of the Kentucky Derby (sat.) on it, and when I went to see what was on the locals, nothing was there. I have the antenna plugged into the back of my Mitushbi. I looked behind my entertainment center, and that looked like the connection wasn't loose. Could it have become loose in the attic? Do you guys have any suggestions.

Thank you

Jack

I wasn't expecting much, as I live in Louisville and have my antenna pointed at Lookout Mountain for the analogs, but I just hooked up my new Samsung SIR-T165 and get (so far) dropout-free HD from 2, 4, 6, 9, 31 and 53.

I'm not surprised I can't get KBDI as their analog signal has always come in horridly, so I'm not surprised I don't get their digital signal; I suspect the foothills may lie between me and Squaw Mountain.

KMGH-DT is no big deal to me as I don't watch much on ABC anyway. ;)

According to the Samsung's signal strength meter, the weakest is KCNC-DT at two bars and KUSA-DT at three, the strongest is KWGN-DT at about half scale.

I'm perfectly happy with this and am loathe to head up to the attic to move the antenna given the tales here of losing stations by moving the antenna a few degrees this way or that, but I'm curious if this is par for the course so far or if I should be doing way better or worse. If I could be doing better with an indoor UHF antenna like a Silver Sensor pointed at downtown, please let me know that as well. All I know is that this means HD Olympics! :D

FWIW, downtown is pretty much a clear shot, though I suspect KMGH may be below the horizon where, obviously, Republic Plaza is not. From my house I can see (visually) both the tops of high rises in downtown Denver and the towers on Lookout Mountain without obstruction.

(For that matter I can see DIA as well...)

Feel free to PM me if you don't want to clutter this thread with your responses; thanks!

Originally posted by Sportfantic
I have antenna in my attic, and Sunday it all of sudden stopped working. I watched part of the Kentucky Derby (sat.) on it, and when I went to see what was on the locals, nothing was there. I have the antenna plugged into the back of my Mitushbi. I looked behind my entertainment center, and that looked like the connection wasn't loose. Could it have become loose in the attic? Do you guys have any suggestions.

Thank you

Jack Unless you have bats in the belfry I doubt the connection would come lose. :p
There is really not much to fail. It seems more likely that the Mits stopped working -- you might try a different antenna (plug it right into the Mits) and see if you can get KDVR or KWGN to prove or eliminate that possibility. Once you know the results then you'll know which way to look....

Originally posted by kucharsk
If I could be doing better with an indoor UHF antenna like a Silver Sensor pointed at downtown, please let me know that as well. All I know is that this means HD Olympics! : Unless you start getting dropouts I'd say leave well enough alone. Ignoring KMGH, the only stations you're missing (KBDI, KTFD, KDEN) have no HD anyway.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
OK Here is the current list for KUSA on Thu 5/13 at 5 PM:

...

If I missed anyone, sorry. That is 22 people and should be no problem. I will ask Don about parking and cameras.

Hey Dennis. I'd like to join you all if a slot opens up. I've been lurking far too long :) so it would be great to meet a few of you and get to see the new digs at 9news too.

cheers,
ambient-sky

Originally posted by dr_mal
Tonight's game will be on ESPN nationally except in Denver and San Jose, where it will be on the regional sports networks. The rest of the country gets to see the Avs (and Sharks) in HD; we don't. I did. I quickly "moved" to my parents house in CT. Now I'm getting CBSE HD and all the NY locals (and the clock is two hours fast, but what the hey -- no more blackouts).

Too bad there's no more Avs for maybe 15 months.

Originally posted by RonAuger
I did. I quickly "moved" to my parents house in CT. Now I'm getting CBSE HD and all the NY locals (and the clock is two hours fast, but what the hey -- no more blackouts).

Too bad there's no more Avs for maybe 15 months. Naughty naughty......:)

Originally posted by RonAuger
I did. I quickly "moved" to my parents house in CT. Now I'm getting CBSE HD and all the NY locals (and the clock is two hours fast, but what the hey -- no more blackouts).

Too bad there's no more Avs for maybe 15 months.


Why are'nt you having blackout parties and inviting all of us?

Originally posted by Geof
Good for you.
I'm hoping to have mine tomorrow (I was cheap and only paid for Ground shipping from VE). I do have a bit of doubt it will get here tomorrow though as the street address is hosed up (it says Rand instead of Ranch) and UPS will not make any notations about address changes until the first delivery is attempted. Even so, after reading about how slow the guide is I am not sure I really want it.....

The DirecTV guide is ssslow, as dr_mal mentioned the Tivo style guide is much faster. So far, I'm loving this thing. I turned off Tivo suggested recording (can you believe it was going to record some SD stuff?). I recorded two OTA stations at the same time last night, and watched one delayed. How cool is that! The 30 second skip works, moving around a recording; skipping through commercials, skipping to the end, backing up, fast forwarding, is very fast and smooth.

Ambient Sky:

Come on down! Just be there before 5:30. And welcome to the thread!

I decided to bite the expensive bullet. Last Thursday, I discovered through Google that RapidSatellite had HD Tivos. So I ordered one and the current tracking says it will show up TOMORROW! I have since learned that BB and CC and others are shipping them as well. If interested, check out the TivoCommunity forum.

I have never had a Tivo, but everyone who does says it is clearly one of the best things since sliced bread. Couldn't see getting one though until HD recording was available. Now if D* will give me some credit against the $1,000 which others have reported they do, but not consistently.

I'm probably over analyzing the guide problem but I do surf a lot in the evening (I'm not a big sports fan and it always seems like there isn't a lot of stuff on worth watching anymore). That said I very much like the idea of recording stuff I do watch so a TiVo made/makes sense. Like Dennis though I just could not "justify" (rationalize) getting one before it had HD capability. Some things I'll miss will be the lack of Caller ID and no RF remote capability (which I can solve by other means). Having a slow guide though will really suck. Hopefully I'll know more this evening since it is on the truck and "Out for Delivery" (Hopefully the driver will figure out what the street name should be and then drop it off at the right house).

NOTE: I should also add that my E86 had a slow guide when it was first released but its speed was significantly improved in a subsequent software update. It might well be that a future HD TiVo SW update improves guide speed too.

OT: Can someone recommend a good ISF calibrator in the area? PM me - Thanks!

OT: I got my HD TiVO today and now have it all setup. My very early assessment is that the HD picture is better than my Hughes E86 picture. I'm still waffling on SD quality and whether I like it output as 480i, 480p or 1080i (so far 1080i is winning but I'm not sure that will be the final outcome).

The Guide is not only slow it is ridiculously, ludicrously, and unbelievably slow. How anyone could consider that acceptable is beyond me (for those of you who don't have this unit it takes up to 5 seconds to complete the DirecTv grid and if you want to scroll then wait some more). The TiVo guide is better but it's still slower than the E86 guide.

The OTA receiver is picking up KCNC and KUSA with a signal quality of 70 or so. KRMA is very low and unwatchable. KMGH is forgetaboutit. I'd rather have KRMA-DT than KUSA. Damn.

OT continued:

For the first several hours, while the TiVo is acquiring all the guide data for the next couple weeks, both guides will be pretty slow. After it's finished indexing (give it 24-48 hours), both guides will speed up a little. At that point, the TiVo-style guide will be tolerable and the grid guide will still be slow, but not quite as slow as it is now.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, what's a Live TV guide anyway? :D The guide I use is called "Now Playing" (It's very hard to understand before you get TiVo, but TiVo WILL change the way you watch TV)

Back on topic -- um, er, well, uh, guess I'm looking forward to the KUSA tour next week.

Is anyone else experiencing frequent audio dropouts on KCNC or is this a feature of my new TiVo?

dr_mal, Yes, I was already informed the guides would speed up some. All I can say is I sure hope so....

I watched CSI and parts of Without A Trace Via KCNC via my HD Tivo tonight and I didn't experience any audio problems. I did notice that the picture via component isn't as crisp as the SAT520 that it replaced.

I'm getting all of the stations that I got with my SAT520, even KMGH.

Please remove my name from the KUSA tour list. I just found out I'm out of town all next week.

Originally posted by Greg T
I watched CSI and parts of Without A Trace Via KCNC via my HD Tivo tonight and I didn't experience any audio problems. I did notice that the picture via component isn't as crisp as the SAT520 that it replaced.

I'm getting all of the stations that I got with my SAT520, even KMGH.

Please remove my name from the KUSA tour list. I just found out I'm out of town all next week. Thanks,
I experienced more than a few audio dropouts during Survivor but they stopped right after I posted the question (which was just before CSI began).

No dropouts during Survivor on my HD TiVo tonight.

Was KCNC the station you weren't able to receive before the TiVo? It could still be borderline for you.

Originally posted by dr_mal
No dropouts during Survivor on my HD TiVo tonight.

Was KCNC the station you weren't able to receive before the TiVo? It could still be borderline for you. Nooooo. I was always able to get KCNC. What is your signal quality level on KCNC? On my receiver it's showing right around 70 for both KCNC and KUSA.

It's weird how the KUSA level went from the teens to 70 (or thereabouts) but KRMA's signal didn't significantly change. The before and after KCNC level is about the same or slightly better (number wise) but I don't think it's necessarily valid to compare the TiVo signal meter to the Hughes E86 signal meter. Do you know what the minimum reading has to be (on the TiVo) for a station to be watchable?

Originally posted by Geof
Do you know what the minimum reading has to be (on the TiVo) for a station to be watchable? Every receiver I've had experience with (Sony/Zenith, RCA, Hughes) needed to have 1/3 of the signal meter: 34 for the RCA out of 100, 1/3 of the entire signal bar on the Hughes and Sony/Zenith. I begain to think it was common.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Every receiver I've had experience with (Sony/Zenith, RCA, Hughes) needed to have 1/3 of the signal meter: 34 for the RCA out of 100, 1/3 of the entire signal bar on the Hughes and Sony/Zenith. I begain to think it was common. Actually Ron, that's probably a reasonable approximation. I was sort of guessing something similar but since I don't have a lot of HD STB experience it was purely speculation on my part. KRMA is coming in between 16-28 (it's really bouncing around) and I get no lock.

I get my HD Tivo today! I will let you know what happens with my now marginal KMGH signal (leaves grew out again). I have a DTC-100 and 34 is the minimum but I really need a consistent 40 to keep it from pixelating and dropping audio.

Originally posted by Geof
Actually Ron, that's probably a reasonable approximation. If there's one thing I know well -- it's living on the edge (of signal reception, that is) ;)

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I get my HD Tivo today! I will let you know what happens with my now marginal KMGH signal (leaves grew out again). I have a DTC-100 and 34 is the minimum but I really need a consistent 40 to keep it from pixelating and dropping audio.

Dennis,
I had a DTC-100 and it hovered at 35-44% for KMGH with frequent drop outs. I felt lucky to see an entire show without breakups. I switched to the e86 and SAT520 and the drop out's stopped. I now have the HD Tivo and the signal is still good and solid. So,... I bet you'll see an improvement.

Does anyone know the phone number for the KMGH engineering department? The Flyers - Lightning game is supposed to be in HDTV, but KMGH is showing the stretched SD version instead.

Nevermind - they flipped the switch. Better late then never...

KMGH has a HD signal? :confused:

(as if I could resist -- the NHL playoffs in HD and I'm effectively blacked out in HD :mad: )

The hockey game looks nice today even though I don't really care about either of the two teams playing. This is the first time I've seen true HD on KMGH. Most of the time I just see SD stretched to 16:9, even with there's supposed to be something on in HD.

I wonder how many people I will make jealous by saying I'm watching it using only a simple indoor Silver Sensor antenna. At DU I'm able to get solid signals on KUSA, KMGH, and KRMA. I need to reposition my antenna for KWGN, but can also get the signal. When I first set up my system I was able to get a strong singal on KCNC, but now it's very marginal and usually I can't get it at all. I can't find KDVR no matter what direction I turn my antenna.

Jealous? I'm not (F@**)(insert Deadwood language here) jealous......;)

But I am disgusted (not with you but with KMGH).:mad:

For anyone that got their HD Tivo from Ultimate Electronics for $899 please PM me that name of the salesperson and store. Sound Track University doesn't want to honor the deal.
Sorry to interrupt. Thank you.

I've got a question for the group. I called an antenna installer today to see about putting an antenna on my roof (or attic) to get OTA HDTV signals. He said that the local stations were not transmitting at their full resolution potential (1080i or 720p), but somewhere lower than that (480i up to about 750i). That didn't seem correct to me, with all that I have read here on this thread.

Living in Highlands Ranch, I nearly have line-of-sight to Denver, but can't get on the upper-most portion of my roof to verify that. I am wondering if I could still get good signal if I put an antenna in my attic, which would have to receive the signal through the walls. A roof-mount might be better and easier (cable run to the STB, etc), since I have limited access in my attic and probably can't fit a big 6' antenna up in there. I think I could probably work one of the ChannelMaster 4228s or the Winegard Square Shooter, but would I have unacceptable signal reception?

Are there any other antenna installation companies in the metro area who are knowledgable about HDTV? I could probably mount an outdoor antenna to my chimney, but if it needs to be higher than that, I think I'd look for some professional help. Thanks.

The stations in Denver are broadcasting at the full resolution potential. Most of them are not broadcasting at the full power.

So CBS, NBC, PBS, and WB are all putting out 1080i, although at pretty low power (WB excepted). ABC (such as it is) is putting out 720p, and Fox is outputting 480p (they'll be moving to 720p when Fox corporate starts -- sometime this fall hopefully).

Your best bet is to get the antenna outside, as high as possible. You may be able to get away with leaving it in your attic, but if you can do it, I'd recommend putting it right up there on your roof. Why mess around? Do it right the first time.

As to finding people knowledgable about DTV in the area, I suspect they're all right here. I used Alpine Electronics to install my antenna, but I didn't ask him anything about DTV since I learned what I needed to know here. I just needed someone with a big ladder and not as afraid of heights as me :) I told him I wanted it aimed downtown, and then I confirmed that I was able to lock onto the channels I wanted. Pretty simple.

Dr., I do believe that KDVR has already switched to 720p. (I can't for check for certain on my receiver). Buy you are correct, that they are not sending any shows in 720p yet, I think their new season starts in June.

Originally posted by santellavision
Dr., I do believe that KDVR has already switched to 720p. Yes, the INFO button on my Samsung SIR-T151 shows them as broadcasting "HD" - which means 720p or 1080i but we know it's not the latter.

Very interesting. Thanks for the quick response. Guess I'm not too inclined to use these folks then. I'm thinking about trying a chimney mount, as I can get to that and the equipment seems pretty reasonable in terms of price and complexity. That also allows me as short a cable run as possible, since the theater room is directly under the chimney, two floors down.

I was looking at the ChannelMaster 4228, which seems to have good reviews, but is it too directional for me? AntennaWeb says I have stations at 358 and 311 degrees. I remember reading somewhere that bay antennas work with 30 degree spreads or less. I'd rather not go with a yagi, but will if I have to.

Dr_mal-
Thanks for the info. I will check out Alpine and see. Did you go with a chimney mount or some sort of tripod on the roof?

Originally posted by jhawk92
I was looking at the ChannelMaster 4228, which seems to have good reviews, but is it too directional for me? AntennaWeb says I have stations at 358 and 311 degrees. Let me guess, 311 is your orientation to Lookout and 358 to Republic, right? If so I would give the CM4228 a try. Aim the antenna for maximum gain at Republic and you will probably pick up the much-higher powered Lookout stations as an afterthought. At least that seems to work for me from the opposite side of town (Boulder). You may lose out on KBDI but they aren't broadcasting HD anyway.

No guarantees of course, but if it doesn't work you can probably find someone on this thread who'll buy you CM4228.

jhawk:

I use a CM 3023 (same as a 4248) which is a long Yagi. The only reason I use it is that it has been able to pick up KMGH. I can get all the other stations using a simple RS double-bowtie antenna. What I did was to aim the antenna to optimize the KMGH signal and all other signals come in fine. I live just SW of the Cherry Creek reservoir. The antenna is on a 10 foot mast on the peak of my house with a RS tripod designed for the peak of the house. I had to move it all over the place to peak the signal for KMGH. If you don't care about KMGH, then you might be able to get the other stations with a 4228 on the side of your house (or in your attic) aimed towards downtown. KMGH as you will learn is a royal pain to receive. Good luck!

I just got my new HD Tivo going and am now able to get KMGH once again but now with a rock steady lock. Old numbers were 38-40 on a DTC-100 with lots of dropouts. Now I get 58-65 on the Tivo for KMGH and the other stations are all up around 85-95. So, I am pleased with the new tuner. My big work now is to reprogram my ProntoNEO remote for the new Tivo setup. That will take a while.

jhawk - For the brief period I had an OTA receiver (Samsung 151), I was able to receive KMGH from south Highlands Ranch using only an RCA rabbit ears/loop combination antenna mounted on top of the TV (previously purchased to watch regular channels whenever the cable went out). While I may have line of sight to downtown from my roof, I don't from the first floor. It took a little effort to get KMGH without breakups, but I was also able to receive the other stations (at least KUSA and KCNC - I wasn't watching that much PBS and KDVR wasn't broadcasting true HD back then) without repositioning. I guess I'm suggesting that if you have an available indoor antenna, it might be worth a shot to try it first (if that's physically possible and aesthetically acceptable), then spend the money/effort to get higher up if you can't get a decent signal.

I wonder if you and I work at the same place.

oxo-
According to AntennaWeb, KUSA, KCNC, and KRMA are at 358 degrees, which should be Republic (downtown.) KWGN and KDVR are listed at 310 degrees, which looks to be Lookout Mtn. AntennaWeb does not list KMGH HD station, so I am assuming it is also at Republic? The SD is listed at 310 degrees, so maybe I'm confused? I'm not too worried about KBDI, but would like to get the main networks. What antenna are you using?

Dennis-
Yes, I am already learning how much of a pain KMGH is. I think it's probably best to try for a roof peak location, so I'll start there. Good to know that the TIVO receiver is helping. Is that the DirecTV one? I have started doing research on STB and since I don't need one with satellite capability, I was looking at either a Samsung (SIRT351) or one of the LG models, LST-3100A or -3410A. The 3100A is about $50 less than the Samsung, and the 3410A has a DVR (120GB) on-board. I don't think it's part of the TIVO group, so maybe this is something on its own.

The CM3023 doesn't look too bad, and may be about the same price as the 4228. The size is quite a bit bigger, yet it has less range than the 4228.

Gakon-
I think I may have an antenna in my "spare parts" location, so I'll check that out. Yes, not a bad idea to try a rabbit ear first. Most folks around here don't have much good to say about the Terk TV55, overpriced, etc, so I think I'll stick with something from CM. I work at a "major defense contractor" just south of C-470. :)

jhawk:

The following post from jetlag will amuse you. It was posted a year ago, but nothing has changed. Their building is only 5 stories high and their transmitter is very low power. They could care less. If you get a "rabbit ear" type anteanna, be sure it is UHF. A VHF rabbit ear would not work on the HD stations.

Originally posted by Jetlag
KMGH EXPOSED!!!!!

I was driving by the KMGH - ABC facility on Speer the other day, when I happened to notice the antenna cluster on their roof. Since I was at a stoplight, I had a chance to take a very close look and was not at all surprised to find out what I had suspected all along.

In this first photo, you can see their building with one of the antennas highlighted.

http://home.earthlink.net/~tim_schaefer/pic/ABC.jpg



I then used my handy telephoto lens to get a closer look, and this is what I found:




http://home.earthlink.net/~tim_schaefer/pic/xmtr.jpg

Yes, I was as shocked as you are! I mean, everyone but everyone knows that in order to maximize the broadcast capability of a coat hanger antenna, you must extend the bottom part of the antenna by pulling it up into an ellipse! My god, what were they thinking!?!?!?

Maybe someone could email one of their engineers and ask them to bend the antenna the way it is supposed to be. I think that alone would solve everyones reception problems and would be much much cheaper than moving to RP. ;)

Just a link to another article in the local newspaper about the tower(s).

Canyon Courier Link (http://www.canyoncourier.com/articles/2004/05/07/news/news07.txt)

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by jhawk92
Dr_mal-
Thanks for the info. I will check out Alpine and see. Did you go with a chimney mount or some sort of tripod on the roof?
I reused a tripod that Sprint had installed for their wireless broadband service before I was able to get DSL. I don't have a chimney.

I'd forgotten that KDVR had switched to 720p already. I remember their engineer saying they were originally set up for 720p and to go back to 720p would only require them to flip a switch. Thanks for the corrections.

If price is no object, I'd heartily recommend going with the DirecTV HD DVR with TiVo ($999.99). When it comes to timeshifting, TiVo has no equal. The box isn't designed (and it shows) for live tv surfing, but if you give TiVo a month, you'll stop caring about channel surfing. I can't remember the last time I just wanted to flip through the channels. I've got more than enough shows that I really like on my Now Playing List (already recorded). Right now, the units are in high demand, but circuitcity.com seems to get a few shipments a week if you can catch them in stock.

Originally posted by jhawk92
oxo-
AntennaWeb does not list KMGH HD station, so I am assuming it is also at Republic? The SD is listed at 310 degrees, so maybe I'm confused? I'm not too worried about KBDI, but would like to get the main networks. What antenna are you using?

No, KMGH is not at Republic. If it were you wouldn't hear us b****ing about it all the time.

I have a CM4228, mounted on my back deck.

Originally posted by wabisabi
Just a link to another article in the local newspaper about the tower(s).

Canyon Courier Link (http://www.canyoncourier.com/articles/2004/05/07/news/news07.txt)

-Wabisabi So now SCARE has a possible foot in the door to muck up Morrison. Amazing.

Sadly I think Denver is really behind the 8 ball and the JeffCo folks are going to come out looking like the dumbasses they are.

Once again, I wish the FCC would just step in and preempt SCARE in the public interest (sigh...)

Dennis-
That is a fascinating post, and kinda scary at the same time. No wonder people love KMGH so much. I would like to see Alias and MNF, but we'll see how it goes. I'll check on my antenna at home tonight, if I still have it. I may have sent it down the road before I moved from my last house in CT.

dr_mal-
I don't have DTV, so I really don't need or want the extra capabilities of that unit. That's why I was looking at the LG boxes, especially the 3410 with the DVR on board. However, after doing a search in the Hardware and HDTV Recorders sections, the press on this unit isn't very good. Maybe I'll stick with the 3100 for the time being and see how it goes. The 3100 runs about $350 or so, and the 3410 is somewhere between $800-999.

oxo-
Ok, so now I am confused. AntennaWeb lists KMGH SD at 310 degrees, same direction as KDVR and KWGN HD. With the pictures that Dennis posted, can I assume that the HD signal is at the same location, 310 degrees? Republic is downtown, but I didn't think the Speer location for KMGH would lie along the same path as Lookout Mtn. Good to know about your 4228. Not sure if I want to try the 4228 or check the 4221 first.

KRMA, KCNC, and KUSA have antennas atop the republic Plaza. KMGH has their toy transmitter broadcasting from their coat hanger antenna located atop their studio building, which is somewhat close to the Republic Plaza, but their building is only 5 stories tall making it much more difficult to pickup.