Denver, CO - OTA [Text View] - Page 33

dr_mal

05-12-04, 01:08 AM

I haven't been around as long as some of you guys (I got hooked up with HDTV in October 2001 when HDNet started showing NHL in HD), but long enough to remember KUSA squatting on their digital spectrum up until *coincidentally* a bunch of us wrote the FCC complaining about how KUSA was doing absolutely nothing towards transitioning to DTV.

Since then, KUSA has "got religion" in regards to HDTV big time. They're not only local leaders at the moment, but with the HD Sky9, they're national leaders. Despite their history, they've got the first HD traffic copter in the country. They're just the 4th station in the country to produce and broadcast local news in HD. Now we're left with nothing better to do but complain that KUSA is finally doing what we've been wanting them to do now for years? Shouldn't we be celebrating a victory in KUSA's decision to embrace HD (finally)?

At this point, I've removed KMGH from "Channels I Receive" on my TiVos. I have absolutely no desire to watch their station. Not only am I watching very little (if any) standard-def since I got my HD TiVo, but the treatment KMGH management (and lawyers) have given us is appalling. Say what you will about KUSA, but they never sent their corporate liars, I mean lawyers, to reply to the FCC pleading a case that we all know is pure fabrication.

Now if KMGH were to suddenly launch a full-power HDTV signal in time for the Stanley Cup Finals, you bet I'd start watching again. As for the rest of ABC's lineup -- the only show I could tell you that's on there is Alias, and I can wait for the DVDs. But by not embracing stations as they launch HDTV, I can't see them being motivated at all to get us a signal. If we want to see KMGH-DT full power (even not for our own sakes, if we're really never going to watch, but for the sake of people buying a HDTV set now who haven't been personally lied to by KMGH management), I think we need to embrace stations like KUSA who are finally on the right track.

My 2 cents. You know I love you jm and Geof :)

dr_mal

05-12-04, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by santellavision
Things would be different if one or two commercial stations were full-power.
You mean besides KWGN and KDVR? ;) I know they're not quite full power, but they're still pretty strong (at least compared to everyone else).

santellavision

05-12-04, 01:19 AM

I like my WB & Fox, but I meant the big 3. (HSN, Telemundo & PAX) ;)

mknoebel

05-12-04, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by santellavision
Yeah, I agree too. It's really ideal for them. Look at how much the're all saving by not running both a full-power DTV transmitter along with another full-power analog transmitter.

I would agree with that, EXCEPT... look at how many stations across the country ARE running both. My dad lives outside of Green Bay (about 100,000 people - kinda like Ft. Collins), and they have found a way to put everything in HD. He lives about 30 miles away and gets them at close to 100% strength.

To me there is NO excuse for the foot dragging that's going on here.
:mad:

Geof

05-12-04, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by dr_mal
I haven't been around as long as some of you guys (I got hooked up with HDTV in October 2001 when HDNet started showing NHL in HD), but long enough to remember KUSA squatting on their digital spectrum up until *coincidentally* a bunch of us wrote the FCC complaining about how KUSA was doing absolutely nothing towards transitioning to DTV.

Since then, KUSA has "got religion" in regards to HDTV big time. They're not only local leaders at the moment, but with the HD Sky9, they're national leaders. Despite their history, they've got the first HD traffic copter in the country. They're just the 4th station in the country to produce and broadcast local news in HD. Now we're left with nothing better to do but complain that KUSA is finally doing what we've been wanting them to do now for years? Shouldn't we be celebrating a victory in KUSA's decision to embrace HD (finally)?

At this point, I've removed KMGH from "Channels I Receive" on my TiVos. I have absolutely no desire to watch their station. Not only am I watching very little (if any) standard-def since I got my HD TiVo, but the treatment KMGH management (and lawyers) have given us is appalling. Say what you will about KUSA, but they never sent their corporate liars, I mean lawyers, to reply to the FCC pleading a case that we all know is pure fabrication.

Now if KMGH were to suddenly launch a full-power HDTV signal in time for the Stanley Cup Finals, you bet I'd start watching again. As for the rest of ABC's lineup -- the only show I could tell you that's on there is Alias, and I can wait for the DVDs. But by not embracing stations as they launch HDTV, I can't see them being motivated at all to get us a signal. If we want to see KMGH-DT full power (even not for our own sakes, if we're really never going to watch, but for the sake of people buying a HDTV set now who haven't been personally lied to by KMGH management), I think we need to embrace stations like KUSA who are finally on the right track.

My 2 cents. You know I love you jm and Geof :) Sorry But I heard their c*ck-n-bull story once too often to begin trusting them at this juncture. They may have spent some money on HD but they have not given me any reason to trust them. Let me just say that they have not earned my trust. And even if KMGH were to suddenly improve their ERP I would refuse to watch them. Why should I. They lied and now all of a sudden I should forget that? Nope not that easy. Both of these stations are whores to their own self serving motivations and I'm not getting back in bed with them until I can rest assured I won't catch any diseases.

Jetlag

05-12-04, 10:08 AM

Hey Geof, tell us what you really think! ;-)

Looks like my work schedule changed (again), so I will not be at the tour Thursday night. Have a great time!

oxothuk

05-12-04, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by santellavision
I like my WB & Fox, but I meant the big 3. (HSN, Telemundo & PAX) ;) I actually would like to get digital reception of PAX, since then I wouldn't ever have to switch between my set-top-box and the internal receiver. Anyone heard news on their plans, if any?

And for academic interest, is anyone getting KTFD-DT(15) these days? If so, what kind of receiver do you have? My Samsung locks on to them (solid green light) but reports "No Signal" with the on-screen display; similar to the problem we Samsung owners had with KRMA for a few days at the end of March.

JMartinko

05-12-04, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by dr_mal

My 2 cents. You know I love you jm and Geof :)
First of all, as Jerry Seinfeld says, "I'm not interested in that sort of thing, NOT that there's anything wrong with that".
:D

Originally posted by santellavision
Yeah, I agree too. It's really ideal for them. Look at how much the're all saving by not running both a full-power DTV transmitter along with another full-power analog transmitter.

Things would be different if one or two commercial stations were full-power. I bet the others would be pulling out all the stops to get something done! But, no rush, since they're all basically equal (except KMGH). Are they really on the air yet? ;)
My problem with KUSA is more than just how much they are saving. By the stations not being on the air full power, the few options available for major network HD are: 1) Put up an major antenna on your roof and point toward town and also Lookout, 2) Subscribe to Comcast, 3) Get a home up north of the border, 4) Invest in a C/Ku band dish and expensive receivers 'impress' your neighbors with 'your size'.

Since most people will chose item 2, let's consider the implications. As I understand it, Comcast charges for the HD channels on their system. KUSA also charges Comcast for the rights to carry their signal. Unless I am missing something, will not KUSA be 'making money' with the more people they can drive to Comcast for HD. OTA is free (no revenue stream for KUSA), Comcast makes KUSA money! Now tell me what I am missing, but perhaps KUSA figures to pay for some of that HD equipment by getting a high percentage of their viewers to PAY for the signal instead of getting it handed to them for free. Perhaps that is where some of the money they 'expended' on HD is going to come from? Again, just MY $0.02, YMMV. This is what prompted my request that someone at the KUSA tour ask them where we can send out cable or satellite equipment bills, since we are supposed to be receiving this stuff for free like every other city in the country. If this is not the way Comcast HD works then let me know.

Of course if that above is true, it really begs the question of KMGH management, why are they not on Comcast (at least AFAIK they are not since I don't have Comcast), since even fewer people can get their signal any other way? As someone has stated, maybe KUSA management is more 'forward' (translation revenue stream) looking.

skyview

05-12-04, 11:29 AM

As you ponder Comcast, Comcast is NOT an option for some of us, and is of no help what so ever.

Comcast is in my opinion no better than KMGH, a cheap company. My small neighborhood is roughly 1 mile from a high density neighborhood, but because of only 25 houses or so, Comcasts REFUSES to service our area.

So lets no think Comcast is such a great solution, over the air, as every other major city is doing, is what needs to be done.

Geof

05-12-04, 11:35 AM

I don't know if KUSA gets additional revenue from Comcast for their HD channel but Comcast does not (and I believe can not) charge customers extra for local HD channels. If you sign up w/Comcast for just the "Basic cable" services and get a HD capable cable box then you'd be able to get both KUSA-TV and KUSA-DT. You be paying additonal fees for monthly rental on the HD Cable box but I'm sure KUSA would not get any of that money.

Geof

05-12-04, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by skyview
As you ponder Comcast, Comcast is NOT an option for some of us, and is of no help what so ever.

Comcast is in my opinion no better than KMGH, a cheap company. My small neighborhood is roughly 1 mile from a high density neighborhood, but because of only 25 houses or so, Comcasts REFUSES to service our area.

So lets no think Comcast is such a great solution, over the air, as every other major city is doing, is what needs to be done. I believe that sooner or later Comcast will have to wire your neighborhood. I attended a neighborhood meeting a while back and there was a Douglas County representative in attendance that basically said Comcast had to wire and/or upgrade all neighborhoods to be in compliance with their contract with the County.

I think we (viewers, not necessarily stations and definitely not SCARE) all agree OTA needs to be done.

JMartinko

05-12-04, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Geof
I don't know if KUSA gets additional revenue from Comcast for their HD channel but Comcast does not (and I believe can not) charge customers extra for local HD channels. If you sign up w/Comcast for just the "Basic cable" services and get a HD capable cable box then you'd be able to get both KUSA-TV and KUSA-DT. You be paying additonal fees for monthly rental on the HD Cable box but I'm sure KUSA would not get any of that money.

They can bill you any way they want to call it, but I am wondering if Comcast will wire your house and give you a HD box if you only request access to local HD channels and no other services. If you have to buy a minimum package, even for a few bucks, or pay for the receiver by the month or in a one time buy, then the channels are NOT free, the costs have been transferred.

Also, if Comcast does not pay the stations for their HD signal, why is KMGH (and for that matter all the other digital channels) not on Comcast? I kept hearing comments about how they are in negotiations. What were they negotiating if the signal if free and Comcast doesn't charge for it????

HDJello

05-12-04, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by JMartinko
They can bill you any way they want to call it, but I am wondering if Comcast will wire your house and give you a HD box if you only request access to local HD channels and no other services. If you have to buy a minimum package, even for a few bucks, or pay for the receiver by the month or in a one time buy, then the channels are NOT free.

Comcast will charge you for some minimal monthly service (I think it was around $13 plus taxes) and will charge a box rental fee for their box. No, they are not free. However, there is no additional charges just for the HD signals. If you have a tuner that can decode unscrambled QAM then you don't have to rent the box, though you probably (eventually) won't get the HD stations other than the local channels. I don't think the box rental is outrageous, given that you would otherwise have to acquire an ATSC tuner (and maybe an antenna) anyway to get the "free" OTA signals.

Is it a good deal? I can't say; that is a matter of personal choice. I have subscribed to cable for a long time, so plugging in a QAM-capable tuner was an easy choice for me. I put the channel-master in a box until I eventually move to somewhere I can put it up appropriately. If Comcast gets KMGH on-line, I may leave it in the box.

The issue with Comcast<-->KMGH is apparantly tied to a corporate negotiation between Comcast and McGraw Hill, the cheapskate owner of KMGH. Neither side has disclosed any information as to what is holding things up (probably money), but back in the early days of Comcast HD deployment in the Denver metro area, they had planned to include KMGH in their local channel offering (they still have the KMGH listing at http://www.comcastcolorado.com/ComcastColorado/channels.html commented out in the page source). It had to be pulled because the corporate negotiations took over and have yet to be concluded.

oxothuk

05-12-04, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by JMartinko
They can bill you any way they want to call it, but I am wondering if Comcast will wire your house and give you a HD box if you only request access to local HD channels and no other services. If you have to buy a minimum package, even for a few bucks, or pay for the receiver by the month or in a one time buy, then the channels are NOT free, the costs have been transferred.

Also, if Comcast does not pay the stations for their HD signal, why is KMGH (and for that matter all the other digital channels) not on Comcast? I kept hearing comments about how they are in negotiations. What were they negotiating if the signal if free and Comcast doesn't charge for it???? John, are you wondering whether Comcast is complying with the FCC regs which say they can't require more than the "basic" service level to get the OTA HD channels? I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt unless someone has reported otherwise.

And IIRC you don't need to rent their box for the HD locals if you have a QAM tuner; however you would need a cablecard-compliant TV if you wanted to get premium HD channels without their box.

As for KMGH, I doubt that there are any technical reasons why they aren't already on Comcast. We're just pawns in an arm-wrestling contest between McGraw-Hill and Comcast which I suspect goes well beyond Denver.

What HDJello said. He must have been composing his post at the same time I was.

Geof

05-12-04, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by JMartinko
They can bill you any way they want to call it, but I am wondering if Comcast will wire your house and give you a HD box if you only request access to local HD channels and no other services. If you have to buy a minimum package, even for a few bucks, or pay for the receiver by the month or in a one time buy, then the channels are NOT free, the costs have been transferred.

Also, if Comcast does not pay the stations for their HD signal, why is KMGH (and for that matter all the other digital channels) not on Comcast? I kept hearing comments about how they are in negotiations. What were they negotiating if the signal if free and Comcast doesn't charge for it???? First I said I didn't know the arrangements between Comcast and KUSA (or any other station). They could be negotiating anything like subchannels or price or how many bananas to feed the station gm's.

But I would not expect Comcast to offer any channels for free, even HD ones. The basic services package is akin to a lifeline package.....it gets you all of the local analog channels. You probably would not need a cable box for that (depends on your TV's capabilities). I think the cost is something like $12/mo. If you get that basic services package then you can also receive the local HD channels for no additional cost if you have the proper equipment (QAM decoding capability). If you don't have the proper tuner you can rent one from Comcast for something like $5/mo.

Whether KUSA or KMGH or Kbyte-me gets any additional revenue from Comcast for their HD channels is not absolutely clear but if they are those costs are buried into the basic services package because I'm quite sure Comcast would not be paying stations additional revenue out of the goodness of their hearts (ie, without passing those costs down to the users).

Edit: I guess HDJello, oxothuk and I were all working on our replies at about the same time....

kucharsk

05-12-04, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by JMartinko
My problem with KUSA is more than just how much they are saving. By the stations not being on the air full power, the few options available for major network HD are: 1) Put up an major antenna on your roof and point toward town and also Lookout, 2) Subscribe to Comcast, 3) Get a home up north of the border, 4) Invest in a C/Ku band dish and expensive receivers 'impress' your neighbors with 'your size'.
As a C/Ku owner, just to clarify a few things:
A C/Ku dish is, of course, not to impress people with its 'size' but rather for the ultimate in flexibility and SD picture quality. If you've ever seen a good NTSC satellite feed, you'd wonder what all the fuss about HD was about, and we enjoy ala carte pricing of cable channels now, without an act of Congress (though the program providers are currently trying to remove that option from us...)

Unfortunately, the only network HD feed available on C/Ku band satellite is PBS, and even that is the rebroadcast HD feed of Nebraska PBS. HD feeds for ABC, CBS and NBC are in fact on the birds, but each is transmitted using a proprietary digital format requiring the use of an expensive digital decoder that would be a minimum of $4000 - $5000 to buy even if you wanted one. Then even if you did spend the money, there would be no way to get your particular box authorized to receive the HD satellite signal.
So in short, the options are really only 1-3 on your list, though I suppose if you're going to list "3" you could also give the alternative of moving south of the Palmer Divide and picking up your signal from Colorado Springs, and a viable alternative to "4" is to move somewhere outside the Grade "B" signal contour and get a waiver from KMGH to be able to receive CBS HD via E*...

Geof

05-12-04, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by kucharsk
[B]As a C/Ku owner, just to clarify a few things:
Most of that was tongue in cheek....You ought to see his backyard....looks like he's searching for aliens with all his dishes....:)

JMartinko

05-12-04, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by kucharsk
As a C/Ku owner, just to clarify a few things:
A C/Ku dish is, of course, not to impress people with its 'size' but rather for the ultimate in flexibility and SD picture quality. If you've ever seen a good NTSC satellite feed, you'd wonder what all the fuss about HD was about, and we enjoy ala carte pricing of cable channels now, without an act of Congress (though the program providers are currently trying to remove that option from us...)

Unfortunately, the only network HD feed available on C/Ku band satellite is PBS, and even that is the rebroadcast HD feed of Nebraska PBS. HD feeds for ABC, CBS and NBC are in fact on the birds, but each is transmitted using a proprietary digital format requiring the use of an expensive digital decoder that would be a minimum of $4000 - $5000 to buy even if you wanted one. Then even if you did spend the money, there would be no way to get your particular box authorized to receive the HD satellite signal.
So in short, the options are really only 1-3 on your list, though I suppose if you're going to list "3" you could also give the alternative of moving south of the Palmer Divide and picking up your signal from Colorado Springs, and a viable alternative to "4" is to move somewhere outside the Grade "B" signal contour and get a waiver from KMGH to be able to receive CBS HD via E*...

Was out of the office for a few hours, looks like I stirred up a hornets nest. Didn't really mean to do that. I know that cable is required by the FCC to carry the SD signals of the locals, I do not think that law applies to the HD unless the station no longer broadcasts in SD, but only has the ATSC signal. I am not trying to accuse Comcast or anyone else here, I am simply saying that if I bought a TV with a OTA tuner and hooked up a pair of rabbit ears ($12???), since I live in one of the top thirty TV markets in the country, I should be able to receive FREE network television. I should not have to pay an additional dime for a box, cable run or other such device just to watch network TV. Obviously the majority of those of us here pay a LOT of money each month for a lot more than network. My point is, not everyone has the excess disposable income most of us obviously have, and they should NEVER be forced to pay to receive network news and information or we are NOT the free society like we claim. The free OTA airwaves for TV were created specifically to support an informed public. That is why the FCC grants the stations the free use of the frequency bands as a public service. It is for the public good. If I 'choose' to get cable for other services (ESPN et. al.) that is a free market choice. I should NOT have to pay for any network that has access to the public airwaves unless I choose to. I do not know the arrangements KUSA and others have with Comcast, but as I understand it, Comcast is only required to provide free carriage for one signal (NTSC or ATSC), and if the station broadcasts both, Comcast can decide which is free. It is my understanding that the station can charge a fee for the second signal, but I could be wrong about that. The fee would have to stop at such a time as the station drops the NTSC OTA broadcast, but as we all know, that will not be for many years here in Denver. If that is true, then I believe that KUSA and any other local HD broadcast station can and likely do charge some fee for cable carriage. If KUSA makes a dime from the HD signal they give to Comcast, to me that is a travesty, since they have purposefully NOT tried to provide a "FREE" signal to the public until the last year or so, and what they do provide, as we all can attest, is NOT easy to receive.

kucharsk
As Geof said, my C/Ku was a tongue in cheek comment. Actually I have a 12 foot dish in the back yard and a rack of analog, digicipher and MPEG boxes attached to it. I have 5 different receivers I can use from the 12 footer, and you would be surprised what is up there that is not scrambled in HD. That is not a discussion that can be carried here in AVS though. Suffice it to say, that if you have enough money for enough receivers, there are a LOT of alternatives available in that world too. In terms of cost effectiveness, it is NOT the way to go, but in terms of fun......well that's another story. We all know how welcome a huge C/Ku Dish is in most neighborhoods, so it is obviously NOT a viable alternative for the majority of folks regardless of how much disposable income they have.

Sorry again for the hornet nest, but some of us have been fighting these issues for almost 5 years, and have a lot of long standing animosity for the treatment we have received over the years. Yes, KUSA is certainly making a recent effort in the area. As Geof mentioned, some of us who spent years writing scathing letters to the FCC about them have not seen enough effort to have forgotten the damage of the past. KUSA is totally self-serving and only does things which bring them attention, they have never co-operated with the other stations and acted for the community good. That characteristic still has not changed as near as I can see.

Hey, on the plus side, the thread is not dropping to page 3 in the forum since I posted my comments!
:D

oxothuk

05-12-04, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by JMartinko
I do not know the arrangements KUSA and others have with Comcast, but as I understand it, Comcast is only required to provide free carriage for one signal (NTSC or ATSC), and if the station broadcasts both, Comcast can decide which is free. It is my understanding that the station can charge a fee for the second signal, but I could be wrong about that. The fee would have to stop at such a time as the station drops the NTSC OTA broadcast, but as we all know, that will not be for many years here in Denver. If that is true, then I believe that KUSA and any other local HD broadcast station can and likely do charge some fee for cable carriage. If KUSA makes a dime from the HD signal they give to Comcast, to me that is a travesty, since they have purposefully NOT tried to provide a "FREE" signal to the public until the last year or so, and what they do provide, as we all can attest, is NOT easy to receive.

John, this is the way I understand the rules:
1) Local stations are not required to give Comcast any signals for free, either NTSC or HD. For major network affiliates both sides have strong incentives to come to an agreement. Without cable carriage an affiliate's ratings and advertising revenues would drop disastrously; without the major networks many cable customers would switch to D*/E*.
2) Comcast is prohibited from charging anything above the basic rate for delivering OTA signals, either digital or analog. Of course once you want more than that you are at their mercy.
3) Comcast is required to carry at least one signal (digital or analog) from any local station that requests it; this is the infamous "must carry" rule which bumps desirable networks off of cable to make room for every new shopping channel. This rule never comes into play for the major network affiliates since the cable company already has incentive to carry them and the only issue is how much the cable company will pay (point#1).

I generally agree with what you are saying about their half-hearted efforts to provide full-power OTA, but from a business perspective I can understand why they don't do any more than the law makes them.

JMartinko

05-12-04, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by oxothuk

I generally agree with what you are saying about their half-hearted efforts to provide full-power OTA, but from a business perspective I can understand why they don't do any more than the law makes them.
I think that is exactly my point. For years the stations in general have done nothing more than the law makes them do. The requested and received delays on the dates they were required to broadcast ATSC, even though a lot of the delays could be directly attributed to their own in-action, or in some cases arrogance. The first LCG submission to Jeffco was a complete travesty. The stations did not even fulfill all of the requirements for the documents they were required to submit. Jeffco turned down the application and the stations went to the FCC and applied for a delay based upon the fact their application was turned down. Of course, it was turned down largely because it wasn't even complete. The stations could have and should have been on the air from Lookout several years ago, and it makes me ill to see them (especially KUSA) now advertising how they are 'leading the way in HD' when they refused to 'lead the way' four or five years ago when they were supposed to be doing the same thing. But, as we all know, HD equipment was much more expensive several years ago, and by stalling, KUSA saved a LOT of money. Had they started running the same HD public service information adds they now run about 4 years ago, as well as submitted a halfway completed application the first time, we likely would be watching full power OTA HD already. I don't mind them working in their own interests for their own profits, but I DO mind them painting themselves as public servants at the same time when profits, not public interest, is their motivation. Just be up front about that and quit lying about their motivations, and I will be less critical.

Geof

05-12-04, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by JMartinko
......I don't mind them [KUSA] working in their own interests for their own profits, but I DO mind them painting themselves as public servants at the same time when profits, not public interest, is their motivation. Just be up front about that and quit lying about their motivations, and I will be less critical. Exactly. That's why they still have not earned my trust (or respect) (sorry dr_mal, no offense to you). I don't begrudge anyone for now favoring KUSA but....

santellavision

05-12-04, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by oxothuk

3) Comcast is required to carry at least one signal (digital or analog) from any local station that requests it; this is the infamous "must carry" rule which bumps desirable networks off of cable to make room for every new shopping channel. The rule is the stations can decide which signal, (analog or digital) they want carried.

JMartinko

05-13-04, 10:01 AM

No one still seems to know who pays whom, (Comcast pays KUSA or KUSA pays Comcast??) for Comcast to carry the HD version of KUSA? I have always thought that Comcast must pay KUSA for the second (DTV) service. Maybe someone can sneak that question in this afternoon at the tour. It would be interesting to know if KUSA is making money from Comcast for the DTV signal carriage. (Bet they will say they don't know, it might be better to ask KCNC, they have always been up front and honest with us).

oxothuk

05-13-04, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by JMartinko
No one still seems to know who pays whom, (Comcast pays KUSA or KUSA pays Comcast??) for Comcast to carry the HD version of KUSA? I have always thought that Comcast must pay KUSA for the second (DTV) service. It really boils down to what net change there was, if any, in the total economic terms of the carriage agreement between Comcast and KUSA's parent company when to HD signal was picked up, and how much of that change was attributable the KUSA's HD signal versus other issues they may have been negotiating at the same time. Good luck separating that out even if they would give you a copy of the both the old and new agreements.

JMartinko

05-13-04, 10:53 AM

Call me a cynic, but my bet is that KUSA is getting paid for the HD channel, and Comcast is recovering the costs in their "HD box and service" charges. My basic belief is the consumer is paying for something he should get for free. Not a bad scam if you can get away with it. Since the FCC obviously isn't interested in performing its basic function of 'regulating' at the moment, there doesn't seem to be anything to stop this.

RonAuger

05-13-04, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by JMartinko
Call me a cynic, ... You are a cynic ;)

Geof

05-13-04, 11:06 AM

Regardless of whether or not KUSA gets money from Comcast for their DT channel the fact is that (on average) over 60% of viewers have and use cable to get their local channels. A significant other portion of viewers get KUSA via satellite. I believe the general consensus is that only about 15% get their local stations OTA. Given this distribution it still is in the financial interests of the stations to stall their DT broadcasting build-out. Not only do they have to pay millions to get their new facilities built they'd have to pay the electric bill on two high powered transmitters (which aren't exactly cheap to operate). Sure KUSA spent some money to upgrade their studio equipment. Good for them. But realize that between cable and the low power DT signal from Republic they probably reach out to 85% of their audience with their DT channel, and this is without ever spending a dime building LCG2. Ask yourself, are the other 15% of your viewers worth millions of dollars?? Think about it: Delays and roadblocks that SCARE throws in their path defers expenditures of millions of dollars that would only benefit [perhaps] 15% of their viewership. These folks have basically little motivation to overcome inertia and fight back hard to get LCG2 completed ASAP. It, in fact, behooves them financially to sit back and let the bus take detour after detour all the while knowing they can just petition the FCC for extension after extension because of the SCARE situation. In this regard nothing has really changed (including their likely denial of what I just outlined).

Jetlag

05-13-04, 11:08 AM

Since I am supposed to get the OTA HD for free and I live just over 1 mile from KMGH, how come I had to spend so much money and time putting up and tweaking my big UHF antenna just to get their signal? Maybe I should send them a bill? Hmmmm..., Comlag? Jetcast???

JMartinko

05-13-04, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Geof
Regardless of whether or not KUSA gets money from Comcast for their DT channel the fact is that (on average) over 60% of viewers have and use cable to get their local channels. A significant other portion of viewers get KUSA via satellite. I believe the general consensus is that only about 15% get their local stations OTA. Given this distribution it still is in the financial interests of the stations to stall their DT broadcasting build-out. Not only do they have to pay millions to get their new facilities built they'd have to pay the electric bill on two high powered transmitters (which aren't exactly cheap to operate). Sure KUSA spent some money to upgrade their studio equipment. Good for them. But realize that between cable and the low power DT signal from Republic they probably reach out to 85% of their audience with their DT channel, and this is without ever spending a dime building LCG2. Ask yourself, are the other 15% of your viewers worth millions of dollars?? Think about it: Delays and roadblocks that SCARE throws in their path defers expenditures of millions of dollars that would only benefit [perhaps] 15% of their viewership. These folks have basically little motivation to overcome inertia and fight back hard to get LCG2 completed ASAP. It, in fact, behooves them financially to sit back and let the bus take detour after detour all the while knowing they can just petition the FCC for extension after extension because of the SCARE situation. In this regard nothing has really changed (including their likely denial of what I just outlined).
I absolutely agree with you, although I am a bit steamed at the likely fact they are getting paid by Comcast and ultimately customers for their failure to do their duty. As I mentioned earlier, the real culprit in all of this is the FCC for letting them get away with it. Yes, 15% of their customer base may be small by they (the stations) are currently using 100% of the spectrum of the PUBLIC airwaves free of charge for services they really do not provide on that spectrum. The FCC is invisible in this whole affair.

Originally posted by RonAuger
You are a cynic ;)
Wise guy eh! I have been trying to keep it a secret.
:D

Geof

05-13-04, 11:31 AM

You failed miserably trying to hide that sercet (being a cynic). ;)

I agree that the FCC is the problem.....this sounds a lot like what we discussed 2 or 3 years ago...sad how so little has changed....

JMartinko

05-13-04, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Geof
You failed miserably trying to hide that sercet (being a cynic). ;)

I agree that the FCC is the problem.....this sounds a lot like what we discussed 2 or 3 years ago...sad how so little has changed....
And we all know how much good all our letters to the FCC did. Well at least this LCG Tower is the ONLY subject I am cynical about! On every other subject I am more of a pragmatist.

As for the comment "this sounds a lot like what we discussed 2 or 3 years ago", I had exactly that thought as I was writing my previous posts. It almost feels like we could just reset the whole thread back three years and read the old posts and save ourselves the trouble of writing new posts. That is one of the biggest reasons I so rarely feel the interest in getting involved in the discussion here on a serious level any longer. It has all been done so many times before. The faces have changed some, the story remains exactly the same.

oxothuk

05-13-04, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by JMartinko
I absolutely agree with you, although I am a bit steamed at the likely fact they are getting paid by Comcast and ultimately customers for their failure to do their duty. As I mentioned earlier, the real culprit in all of this is the FCC for letting them get away with it. Yes, 15% of their customer base may be small by they (the stations) are currently using 100% of the spectrum of the PUBLIC airwaves free of charge for services they really do not provide on that spectrum. The FCC is invisible in this whole affair.
Even though I am personally a cheapskate who gets only OTA signals, I really believe that OTA TV is an outmoded model and the spectrum should be used for something else. Cable would then be somewhat analogous to phone service, where we do have some regulation to ensure a basic service level that is universally affordable. And the competition from DBS keeps overall prices in check.

Then we wouldn't have to be mad at the stations OR the FCC.

dr_mal

05-13-04, 12:29 PM

While the LCG2 status may be the same as 2 or 3 years ago, I feel compelled to point out that in just the last year:

* KWGN-DT went on the air. Lana Lang in HD :)
* KBDI-DT went on the air (full time)
* KDVR-DT has switched over to 720p in anticipation of network Fox in HD
* KUSA-DT has added hours of local HD programming to our HD menu

Going back 1-2 years:

* KUSA-DT goes on the air

Going back 2-3 years:

* KCNC-DT goes on the air

I'm still not happy with the current state of things (especially at the county level -- this is just getting silly now), but to say no progress has been made in the last 2 or 3 years is silly as well :p

JMartinko

05-13-04, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by oxothuk
Even though I am personally a cheapskate who gets only OTA signals, I really believe that OTA TV is an outmoded model and the spectrum should be used for something else. Cable would then be somewhat analogous to phone service, where we do have some regulation to ensure a basic service level that is universally affordable. And the competition from DBS keeps overall prices in check.

Then we wouldn't have to be mad at the stations OR the FCC.

I would be OK with that as long as "where we do have some regulation to ensure a basic service level that is universally affordable." means FREE (i.e. at NO cost to the consumer). I still believe the purpose of all of this is to insure an informed public as well as provide instant access to emergency information. This access should never be subject to the financial well being of the individual.

Geof

05-13-04, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
While the LCG2 status may be the same as 2 or 3 years ago, I feel compelled to point out that in just the last year:

* KWGN-DT went on the air. Lana Lang in HD :)
* KBDI-DT went on the air (full time)
* KDVR-DT has switched over to 720p in anticipation of network Fox in HD
* KUSA-DT has added hours of local HD programming to our HD menu

Going back 1-2 years:

* KUSA-DT goes on the air

Going back 2-3 years:

* KCNC-DT goes on the air

I'm still not happy with the current state of things (especially at the county level -- this is just getting silly now), but to say no progress has been made in the last 2 or 3 years is silly as well :p Progress certainly has been made. I made my comment with reference to LCG2. In that vein nothing has really changed.

kucharsk

05-13-04, 12:49 PM

mbuchana

05-13-04, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
While the LCG2 status may be the same as 2 or 3 years ago, I feel compelled to point out that in just the last year:

...

* KDVR-DT has switched over to 720p in anticipation of network Fox in HD

...

Don't forget, they finally got the lip synch fixed, too! :)

KDVR-DT seems to be doing a great job now, even the upconverts look better.

Mark

JMartinko

05-13-04, 04:49 PM

Since everything seems resolved, why do we even need this thread any more?????
:rolleyes:

Actually, as Geof mentioned, if you just look at the LCG proposal for the towers on Lookout, very little has changed in the last three years. We are not all that far advanced from those days. Certainly in terms of construction, NOTHING has changed.

gkanders

05-13-04, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by mbuchana
Don't forget, they finally got the lip synch fixed, too! :)

KDVR-DT seems to be doing a great job now, even the upconverts look better.

Mark

I had thought that as well, but either last Friday night (or a couple of Fridays ago) I turned on KDVR-DT, and the lip-sync was so bad my wife made me switch to analog.

kucharsk

05-13-04, 06:52 PM

Just sort of a placeholder until the reports from the folks touring KUSA get back with their reports. :)

I'm not surprised the LCG plans haven't changed; I assume they figured out the best technical/cost savvy solution at the time and are waiting to see how things play out to the end before designing something new...

dr_mal

05-13-04, 11:22 PM

Wow -- I'm not usually the first to report back from these things.

The KUSA tour was really good. We all sat down and let Don and Roger talk to us about why KUSA decided to do local news in HD. Apparently Roger has some position with the Gannett Group as well as being KUSA's GM. Gannett was noticing the HD transition picking up momentum, and Roger convinced them that Denver would be a good test market. So they formed a partnership with SoundTrack, Sony and Comcast (I was thinking of you, jm, when he mentioned this :D) who all have a stake in the HD transition and went for it. This whole process started about 10 months ago. Gannett's looking at the same model in other cities where they own stations.

Something interesting I hadn't heard before is that KUSA's looking to add another subchannel that would be a weather channel with about 80% local weather and about 20% national weather -- so the opposite of "The Weather Channel." Roger insisted that HD picture quality wouldn't suffer. I'm sure we'll all hold him to that :)

Then we got to sit in on the 6pm News. That was interesting -- I've never watched a newscast from within the studio before. Adele, Bob, Mike, and Tony were all pretty nice - Adele and Bob hung around after the newscast was over and chatted for a few minutes. Bob's got a 42" rear-projection HDTV in his home; Adele just has SD. They both said while they were nervous at first about how they'd look in HD, they're really impressed with it now.

That curved HD screen they've got in their set is pretty cool: the curvy part is just a screen and they've got a rear-projector behind it. Since the screen is curved, the signal going there gets run through an effects system to distort the picture the other way so that once it's projected onto the curved screen, it looks normal. The fake TVs backdrop looks even faker in real life.

They've got a prototype HD camera by Sony (only one in the world) on their jib (jig? gib?) for those cool crane shots they do occasionally when transitioning to/from commercial. It sounds like they've got a decent relationship with Sony with all their cutting-edge equipment in there from Sony.

After we got done snooping around the news desk, Don took us over to the control room and the master control rooms. I'm sure other people will post more about those rooms. Then he opened up a box and handed out some spiffy "9News Presented In High Definition" t-shirts.

During one of the commercial breaks, Mark Koebrich came in and got all our names and phone numbers as possible contacts for any future stories he might do about HD in Denver.

All in all, this was a great tour. Thanks to Don and Roger for hosting us, Dennis for setting this up, and the rest of the 9News staff for bringing us more HDTV every day.

Geof

05-13-04, 11:51 PM

Sounds like you guys had fun.

santellavision

05-14-04, 12:07 AM

David forgot to mention we all got a ride in the chopper... WooHoo!

It must be nice to be owned by a large company like Gannett. They seem to have some big time pull. Like having some pretty cool, state-of-the-art Sony equipment, like that tiny, one-of-a-kind, experimental HDCam on the jib.

Roger, mentioned that during the upcoming Olympics, they will have some additional programming not on the OTA SD channel and only on HD.

On the other side of the coin, they still seem to have technical issues. Frasier tonight had a nice big server error near the beginning. It jumped ahead about 5 min, then back, but then, only in SD for a couple of minutes. Ooops!

When asked about the tower issues, They mentioned it was frustrating (Nothing new there) and the comment that struck me was, Don said they WERE hoping for January, but still thinks they will be on-the-air from Lookout next Aug. (Hmmm, I hope he knows something we don't)

ambient-sky

05-14-04, 01:41 AM

Kudos to Dennis for doing the legwork for the KUSA tour. And to KUSA (especially Don) for being great hosts. We had several comments by the staff that Don rarely (if ever) gives tours.

I thought the story Roger told about the Sony video switcher was pretty interesting too. In order to facilitate the swgitch from SD to HD, they wanted Sony to provide a spare. After quite a bit of negotiation they were able to arrange acquiring the video switcher used for this year's superbowl. It was shipped up from Texas to KUSA the day after the superbowl and they started experimenting with HD on the newscast shortly afterwards.

I also found it interesting that they really don't have any accurate metrics on how many HD viewers they have. All the numbers are extrapolated very roughly from HDTV purchases in the area and industry statistics. I think Roger and Don were surprised that in our group 90% were receiving KUSA OTA, but of course we aren't a very good statistical sample. ;-)

It was great meeting everyone too. We should do this kind of thing more often!

cheers,
ambient-sky

ambient-sky

05-14-04, 02:12 AM

Oh, and another interesting tidbit from Roger. He mentioned it was very likely that the ATSC transmission of the Olympics this fall would not be a simulcast of their NTSC signal. Instead they plan to multicast different transmissions on digital and analog.

That should be a nice bonus for those who want to see more events (especially if you timeshift using a PVR such as the new HD Tivo). Might be a bit of a disappointment though if your favorite event is only shown in standard definition :(

cheers,
ambient-sky

Couch Patato

05-14-04, 06:20 AM

Had a great time last night at 9 News. Very informative! They have put alot of work into it. For those that did not make it, here are my photos. They are down rezed quite a bit so they are not as sharp as the full sized photos. http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Colorado59/9%20News%20HD/?sort=descending

squidboy

05-14-04, 09:13 AM

Let me add my thanks to Dennis and Don for getting this set up for us. As one of the KUSA staff said, "Don doesn't give tours to ANYBODY", so we were priveleged to get the scoop straight from the top.

I took a bunch of pictures, but don't have anywhere to put them. Anybody know of free web space or have a server that they can put them on?

I'll be wearing my spiffy new T-shirt to work today. Woohoo for casual Fridays!

markdl

05-14-04, 10:37 AM

Thanks for the pics, couchboy. It was nice seeing the regulars last night, and meeting the new people as well!

John and Geof - I asked Don the hard questions just for you guys.

Q: Doesn't Comcast pay you to retransmit your channel?
A: Comcast pays KUSA nothing to carry our channel.

Q: So, with all of the leaps forward here, do you (Don) even care about the tower situation anymore? I mean, you're clearly leading the way now in Denver, so what's the point anymore?
A: I am completely frustrated with the entire tower situation, when a group of 20 or so people can hold the entire front range hostage. We've spent $5,000,000 so far just to get a piece of paper, that we still don't have. I care very much about people like Mark (Buchanan) up in Ft Collins and Greeley. Denver is the black hole of the nation...

That was pretty much the gist of his response - he sounded genuinely angry and frustrated.

Thanks Dennis for getting this all going!

DennisMileHi

05-14-04, 10:47 AM

I think the main points on our tour have been covered. I was truly impressed with Roger Ogden and his explanation of his vision for the future being HD. No matter what ill will happened on their part a long time ago, I cannot understand why all of us now shouldn't give them a lot of credit for promoting HD and putting their money where their mouth is.

I had a great time. Nice to meet everyone and I am glad I was able to set this up. I especially enjoyed the fact that their news personalites all talked with us, especially Adele and Bob for some time.

If you came, it might be nice to drop a thank you email to Don Perez who went out of his way to make this a great tour: don.perez@9news.com.

Couch Patato

05-14-04, 11:08 AM

squidboy

http://photobucket.com/ is free & provides 100MBs of storage. They even host the photos for posting also. Most sites don't alow posting anymore.

Geof

05-14-04, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by markdl
Thanks for the pics, couchboy. It was nice seeing the regulars last night, and meeting the new people as well!

John and Geof - I asked Don the hard questions just for you guys.

Q: Doesn't Comcast pay you to retransmit your channel?
A: Comcast pays KUSA nothing to carry our channel.

Q: So, with all of the leaps forward here, do you (Don) even care about the tower situation anymore? I mean, you're clearly leading the way now in Denver, so what's the point anymore?
A: I am completely frustrated with the entire tower situation, when a group of 20 or so people can hold the entire front range hostage. We've spent $5,000,000 so far just to get a piece of paper, that we still don't have. I care very much about people like Mark (Buchanan) up in Ft Collins and Greeley. Denver is the black hole of the nation...

That was pretty much the gist of his response - he sounded genuinely angry and frustrated.

Thanks Dennis for getting this all going! Thanks Mark.
I am not surprised by either answer (Engineers always want :) ). And he's right, the situation makes Denver look like a big bad joke.

I can only hope the Buffalo stations have their act together when I move back home later next year.....

Dennis,
Glad you could set it up too. I think jm and I discussed our reasons. You are certainly entitled to disagree with them, but that's where I'm at. No hard feelings either way I hope.

That said, I did (very briefly) tune into Frasier last night. The guide said HD. I don't follow any NBC threads and never watch KUSA so I am ignorant about their HD....looked like 4x3 to me....do they do some sort of bastardized HD or did KUSA miss switching something?

RonAuger

05-14-04, 11:49 AM

No one remembered to mention how cool those robotic camera pedestals were -- they changed their height and direction and slid around the floor all by themselves; with no camera man.

Oh, and how about when we dangled Mark Lamutt from the 9News helicopter over KMGH to steal the coat hanger and see if anyone would notice!!

Thanks again for setting this up Dennis. I'll be sure to drop an email to Don and Roger thanking them also.

JMartinko

05-14-04, 12:11 PM

Sounds like you all had a great time. I viewed the pictures and it looked like a good tour. KUSA seems to be very good about sponsoring things where they can brag how great they are. Of course when I was setting up meetings several years ago for all LCG member stations so they could talk to us, KUSA didn't want us near their facility. Yes, I asked. I suppose that was because the meetings weren't "just about them". Back in those days, of course, KRMA and KCNC were willing to open their doors to us, even though it was for all the LCG stations, not just their own channels. But hey, now KUSA can brag about themselves alone so let the meetings and tours begin.

Originally posted by markdl

John and Geof - I asked Don the hard questions just for you guys.

Q: Doesn't Comcast pay you to retransmit your channel?
A: Comcast pays KUSA nothing to carry our channel.

Q: So, with all of the leaps forward here, do you (Don) even care about the tower situation anymore? I mean, you're clearly leading the way now in Denver, so what's the point anymore?
A: I am completely frustrated with the entire tower situation, when a group of 20 or so people can hold the entire front range hostage. We've spent $5,000,000 so far just to get a piece of paper, that we still don't have. I care very much about people like Mark (Buchanan) up in Ft Collins and Greeley. Denver is the black hole of the nation...

That was pretty much the gist of his response - he sounded genuinely angry and frustrated.

Thanks Dennis for getting this all going!

Too bad KUSA didn't care that much about people like Mark several years ago when it could have really helped. Had they been 'leading the way' back then, maybe the first LCG application would have included all of the required submittals, and maybe they would have even cooperated with the rest of the stations to get public support from people like the AVS for the first application too. Maybe they could have payed for T-Shirts with ads for the LCG and all the stations involved, or at least paid their share of the price. Maybe they could have even run some ads about the future of TV in HD ( of course Soundtrack likely wouldn't have payed for them, and the ads wouldn't have been able to be self promoting about all the stuff KUSA was doing that the other stations weren't) back then so that the public would be aware of things and pressure Jeffco to approve the application. But I guess that is all water over the dam now. KUSA is great and wonderful and concerned that we can't see their HD news that no other station in Colorado has. They are truly great and wonderful, and of course 'leading the way in HD'. Why, if it wasn't for KUSA there likely wouldn't be ANY HD on the air in Colorado, or maybe even the rest of the country for that matter. Maybe KUSA was 'leading the way' in the other 29 of the top 30 markets that are already on the air in HD too?????
(Pardon me while I clear my throat!)

Originally posted by dr_mal
Wow -- I'm not usually the first to report back from these things.

The KUSA tour was really good. We all sat down and let Don and Roger talk to us about why KUSA decided to do local news in HD. Apparently Roger has some position with the Gannett Group as well as being KUSA's GM. Gannett was noticing the HD transition picking up momentum, and Roger convinced them that Denver would be a good test market. So they formed a partnership with SoundTrack, Sony and Comcast (I was thinking of you, jm, when he mentioned this :D) who all have a stake in the HD transition and went for it. This whole process started about 10 months ago. Gannett's looking at the same model in other cities where they own stations.

Sounds like KUSA has made a pretty sweet deal here. Comcast will give them free carriage for the HD channel. I don't suppose it has anything to do with Comcast having near 'exclusive rights' since only about 30% (??) of their viewers can receive the signal OTA and then only with installation of large outdoor antennas. Perhaps (??) Comcast did this since they know when it comes to LCG support KUSA certainly is NOT 'leading the way'.

Sounds like the lack of LCG success is 'win-win' for all of them. KUSA doesn't pay to build their share of Lookout, Soundtrack helps pay for on the air ads that help sell HD sets from their stores (likely at some discount since the ads are really about how wonderful KUSA is), Comcast gets near exclusive carriage of the HD signal until the tower goes up on Lookout (likely several years away at least IMO), and of course KUSA has Soundtrack pay for hundreds of commercials where KUSA can brag about how great they are, while using the revenue stream to pay for the studio upgrade. Everyone wins here except the consumer and guys like Mark.

Not trying just to be the 'spoil sport' here, just thought that while everyone is wearing their KUSA cheerleader T-shirts today it might be good to remember the past and have an outside perspective of the current setup. I'm not saying you can't 'cheer' for KUSA, just that you also need to remember they were mostly MIA the past few years until the issue was 'just about them'. Obviously it is great they are broadcasting the news in HD. They obviously can afford to since they 'played their cards right' with regards to the other LCG members. They are certainly doing more than KMGH. Can't argue that one. I wonder if KUSA ever thanked KCNC and KRMA for leading the way in setting up support from the AVS group and paying for and doing all of the ground work for the 'temporary' transmitters on the Republic building. KUSA sure wasn't leading the way then, were they??? Haven't seen that mentioned on one of those KUSA HD ads have we?? I suppose the ads thanking KCNC and KRMA probably don't start until next week, but I am sure KUSA will thank them.
:rolleyes:

"An objective perspective or just a cynic?? You decide!"
BTW, I just bought a BRAND NEW flame proof suit, and I have it on, so go ahead and "fire away."
Remember, this is all in good fun and "it's only TV", I likely just had one too many cups of coffee this morning.
:D

JackinThornton

05-14-04, 12:22 PM

Thanks Dennis for setting that up.

It was nice to put a face on everyone here that has helped me get setup.

The only thing that bothered me was the look on Roger's face when I asked about a contingency plan for the transmitter. All the KUSA people seemed warm and friendly, and VERY interested in our setups, and reception abilities.

Question for Mark....
Do you know how many, (rough estimate) 921's there are in the Denver area currently in use? Feel free to have me try to reproduce bugs or anything you want me to test from a different setup/antenna etc.

santellavision

05-14-04, 12:29 PM

Geof,

The first Frasier (series highlights) was only in SD, but the season finale was mostly in HD. Like I posted above, their server glitched a bit and jumped around, then went to SD for a few minutes, then back to HD for the rest.

RonAuger

05-14-04, 12:30 PM

No jm, really .. tell us how feel. ;)

JMartinko

05-14-04, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by santellavision
Geof,

The first Frasier (series highlights) was only in SD, but the season finale was mostly in HD. Like I posted above, their server glitched a bit and jumped around, then went to SD for a few minutes, then back to HD for the rest.

They also jumped ahead in the show for about 30 seconds (skipping a short segment--- would that be 'leading the way???? :D ) but then went back to the spot to make up the lost scene, but that was only in SD until they got back to the part where they had first skipped to. Then it went back to HD again.

Geof

05-14-04, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by santellavision
Geof,

The first Frasier (series highlights) was only in SD, but the season finale was mostly in HD. Like I posted above, their server glitched a bit and jumped around, then went to SD for a few minutes, then back to HD for the rest. Thanks Ernie. I didn't stick around long enough to even know there was a season finale episode.

-----

Well jm, you captured most of my thoughts as well....I still stand by my comments that they (and KMGH) are whores to their own self serving interests.

JMartinko

05-14-04, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Geof

Well jm, you captured most of my thoughts as well....I still stand by my comments that they (and KMGH) are whores to their own self serving interests.
"whores to their own self serving interests." You say that like it's a BAD thing! It's just the American way.
:D

My complaint is not that they are "whores to their own self serving interests" (which they of course are), but that they try to pretend they are doing all of this for people like you and me, and not for themselves.

Boy, that coffee must have been really strong today, I need to get to the gym and get a workout in so I can chill out this afternoon.
:D

JMartinko

05-14-04, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by RonAuger
No jm, really .. tell us how feel. ;)
Can't really do that, I HAD to hold back and downplay my real feelings.

As Jack said, "you (universal, not personal) can't handle the truth"!
:D

Phil T

05-14-04, 01:22 PM

Thanks to all. I realy enjoyed the discussion and tour along with my daughter Kristen. If you noticed, while you all were talking with Adele, we were chatting with Mike Nelson. Kristen has had a crush on him since elementary school. I tried to post a couple of pictures last night without any luck. I guess the file size is to big.

Anyway, thanks to all and it was great seeing you all again!

CEB II

05-14-04, 02:06 PM

Sounds like it was a very interesting and informative tour. I wish I could have attended, but other obligations made that impossible. Obviously some of the "old-timers" have some deep-seated issues with KUSA, but it sounds to me like they are just doing smart business. It also sounds like some of their key management is as frustrated about the LCG tower as most of the posters here are.

They aren't the enemy. They are moving in the right direction and their current OTA setup is the strongest signal I get in Arvada. What I don't understand is why there isn't any investigative reporting (would need to be the newspapers to keep it fair) about the whole LCG issue and its impact on the front range. Also, how about a story about how KMGH is pretending to offer OTA DTV. I haven't seen any. Just the fluff pieces about how HDTV is the coming thing and you'd better get cable if you want to see it. Ugh!

markdl

05-14-04, 02:34 PM

Jack - I know of about 10 people with 921s outside of the Dish employees in Denver. Me, you, David Levin, b5lurker, Ernie, Ernie's dad, and 4 others that aren't around here much. Anyone else around these parts have one that I missed?

mbuchana

05-14-04, 03:01 PM

Add my thanks to Dennis & Don Perez for the great tour, and to all of the other KUSA people for chatting with us.

Now if I could only get KUSA-DT. Roger Ogden thought that Comcast was planning to deliver their KUSA-DT to Ft. Collins & Greeley in the near future. I hope he is right.

Comcast is kind of a lousy deal up here. In a place where you pretty much have to have cable or satellite just to get a reasonable picture from the Denver channels, they offer no "basic cable" option. The cheapest option is around $40/month, and it matches what is called "expanded basic" in other areas.

Mark

mknoebel

05-14-04, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by markdl
Q: So, with all of the leaps forward here, do you (Don) even care about the tower situation anymore? I mean, you're clearly leading the way now in Denver, so what's the point anymore?
A: I am completely frustrated with the entire tower situation, when a group of 20 or so people can hold the entire front range hostage. We've spent $5,000,000 so far just to get a piece of paper, that we still don't have. I care very much about people like Mark (Buchanan) up in Ft Collins and Greeley. Denver is the black hole of the nation...

Well, it's nice that he cares about us "northerners". But that still doesn't help us get the signal.

I agree with Mark about comcast. What a pathetic job they are doing with HD. Nothing available in Greeley - and the couple of times I called asking about it, they told me that they already offer it (they were talking about digital cable, not HD). Clueless.

But they still would be a nice option to get just the locals in HD until (if/when :rolleyes: ) the tower situation resolves itself.

Mgibsoj

05-14-04, 04:09 PM

What is the limiting factor on the power from RP? Is it the FCC, the antenna radiator size? the max their small transmitters will supply? the fact that they are downtown? I'm sure they could reach some more people if their power level was several times what they put out now - just wondering if it would be possible to bump it up in the meantime. At least Don's prediction of on-air-date (is it entered in our contest?) beats mine by a few millenniums.

I don't know jm, but when I drink coffee it still flows out the holes left in me from when I mentioned that a working LCG1 beats a fictitious LCG2 anyday.

Geof

05-14-04, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
What is the limiting factor on the power from RP? Is it the FCC, the antenna radiator size? the max their small transmitters will supply? the fact that they are downtown? I'm sure they could reach some more people if their power level was several times what they put out now - just wondering if it would be possible to bump it up in the meantime. At least Don's prediction of on-air-date (is it entered in our contest?) beats mine by a few milleniums. This was discussed a long, long, long time ago. I vaguely remember that one of the main limitations was antenna size. Denver ordnance restricted their height which limited the antenna size. Trying to get around that would require a variance and the process to do that is similar to what they are going thru in JeffCo. I also suspect they are somewhat limited with transmitter wattage - AC power and HVAC demands go up fast as transmitter size goes up. Given the "temporary" setup they probably chose the biggest baddest gear they could without exponentially increasing costs.

JMartinko

05-14-04, 04:32 PM

I don't remember the limits for the Republic Building precisely, but as I recall there are two serious issues, one is a limit on the amount of AC power which can safely be carried to the upper floors of the building without becoming a fire hazard, and the other is that the transmitters are radiating directly into the Qwest buildings' upper floors and I don't think Qwest is willing to evacuate the upper floors to allow higher power transmissions from the RB. Can't remember which trumps the pile first, but I remember both being serious issues. Also, the City of Denver would no allow any high power transmission from downtown buildings, likely for the above two reasons if not more.

Mgibsoj

05-14-04, 04:36 PM

Thanks for the RP info Geof and JM. I suppose that makes the Mountains a 'rock' and Denver a 'hard place'.

Geof

05-14-04, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
Thanks for the RP info Geof and JM. I suppose that makes the Mountains a 'rock' and Denver a 'hard place'. And most of us SOL.:mad:

Lawood

05-14-04, 04:48 PM

Dennis thanks for arranging the tour last night I really enjoyed it. Disappointed that I forgot to take my camera. I personally thanked Don and I really impressed that he took the time ( I am sure he is a busy man)to acknowledge my Email with a nice response.
Way to go Don and all your associates at KUSA Channel 9. The leader in leading the way with HDTV.
Thanks again,

squidboy

05-14-04, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Couch Patato
squidboy

http://photobucket.com/ is free & provides 100MBs of storage. They even host the photos for posting also. Most sites don't alow posting anymore.

Thanks for the info.

I've uploaded my KUSA pictures if anyone is interested.

http://img67.photobucket.com/albums/v205/Squidboy/

John Schuermann

05-15-04, 02:25 PM

Hey fellow Coloradoans -

If anyone here is interested in attending a home theater/projector expo here in Denver, we're having a pretty big event the weekend of June 5th and 6th. Lots more info is in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=402182

Everyone is welcome!

John

Lawood

05-15-04, 02:34 PM

The date has been set go to the following link.

http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/ext/dpt/coadm/pubinfo/pressrel/2004/bcc_dates_rev.htm#P27_355

Geof

05-15-04, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Lawood
The date has been set go to the following link.

http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/ext/dpt/coadm/pubinfo/pressrel/2004/bcc_dates_rev.htm#P27_355 So now the new hearing is in August...almost one full year shy of when it was "approved". Since additional hearings may be required one has to wonder when this might be settled (if ever). Since it is subject to a new vote it could even be turned down.

JMartinko

05-17-04, 10:03 AM

August 12???

This just CAN'T be true. The letter from the KMGH lawyers said they would be on the air this spring. This would imply the KMGH lawyers gave us (and the FCC) a huge pile of sh*t! How could that happen and none of us see through their BS? I'm shocked!
:mad:

Of course there is no point in rushing this, might as well wait until August. I guess as long as they do this before the elections, since several, if not all (??), of the commissioners are term limited and won't have to face re-election after their decision.

"Metro Denver, leading the way in HD"!

santellavision

05-17-04, 10:21 AM

I know it's not until August, but maybe we can rally all the newbies to go and either testify or just show support.

We all know the (S)Care militia will be freakin' huge!

Geof

05-17-04, 10:22 AM

August 10th is Primary day. I wonder what (if any) significance there is to deferring the meeting until after the primary election.

JMartinko

05-17-04, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by santellavision
I know it's not until August, but maybe we can rally all the newbies to go and either testify or just show support.

We all know the (S)Care militia will be freakin' huge!

Maybe KUSA can run some HD PSA's talking about the need for the tower and the hardwork of the LCG....:D ......:D ...........:D .......:D ........:D ......:D....ROFLMAO
OK, you can all quit laughing now, it was a rather humorous when you think about it. It's all perfectly logical except that it wouldn't 'glorify' KUSA above the other stations. Just 'not gonna happen'! Maybe KMGH can run some adds on their HD feed, THAT ought to rally the troops.

:D

Mgibsoj

05-18-04, 01:27 PM

It appears that 2-1 has done away with the stretch and replaced it with an SD-zoom (like the old TV series transfers on HDNet). Doesn't quite fill the screen, crops off the top and bottom a bit, but looks great. Looks like maybe 15:9, has less of the left/right bars than KDVR's stretch-o-vision (which I still can't stomach), and is IMO a nice improvement (also in PQ) over the stretch. Thanks KWGN!:) You're still the one leading the way in my book! (If KUSA wants to compete, get me the signal!)

Mgibsoj

05-18-04, 02:15 PM

I just received word from KBDI that the causes for 12-2 and 12-3 weekend blackouts have been corrected by reconfiguration and adjustment of their monitoring and delivery systems. Also the Camp KBDI logo is removed until they can reconstruct modified graphics for the logo (to address burn-in concerns), and that there will be HD on KBDI "in the coming months".:p

santellavision

05-18-04, 02:18 PM

Mark,

Is KBDI just transmitting SD on all 3 channels? I would like to keep the denverdtv.info site up to date.

Mgibsoj

05-18-04, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by santellavision
Mark,

Is KBDI just transmitting SD on all 3 channels? I would like to keep the denverdtv.info site up to date.

Yes, 480i on all 3 channels, no HD to date.

santellavision

05-18-04, 02:26 PM

Thanks mark,

I do remember they were HD when they first did some Squaw testing. But that was before they went live the 2nd time.

What really irks me, is that both the stations that could be full-power (KDVR & KBDI) just keep on sending low-power DTV. And then KRMA will only use their Low-power transmitter when (and if) they finish their new tower on Mt. Morrison. What the hell happened to the FCC's mandate for all stations to be full-power (if they can) by now?

Mgibsoj

05-18-04, 02:44 PM

Agreed. In Denver, the FCC has been AWOL since day 1.

EDIT: Wow - I posted the message about the sheriff being run out of town and it was grabbed faster than I could remove it (I thought it sounded too harsh). But that's what happened, and in retrospect, I still stand by it. You guys are QUICK! (A good thing).

oxothuk

05-18-04, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
Agreed. In Denver, the FCC has been AWOL since day 1. And SCARE has run the sheriff out of town. They now sit with their shotguns on the side of dem dere hills. I wonder, has anyone pointed out to (s)CARE that in New York they broadcast digital TV from the Empire State Building, and before that from the WTC. And that is very close to QUITE A FEW more people than live at the foot of Lookout. And if this caused cancer or any of the other maladies the claim, SOMEBODY WOULD HAVE NOTICED BY NOW.

oxothuk

05-18-04, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by santellavision
And then KRMA will only use their Low-power transmitter when (and if) they finish their new tower on Mt. Morrison. Frankly I wish they would just stay at Republic until they are ready to go full-power on Mt. Morrison. With one orientation on my CM4228 I can pick up all the Republic signals along with the medium-power signals from Lookout. If KRMA goes ahead with this plan I'll probably have to either give them up or get a rotator.

dr_mal

05-18-04, 03:55 PM

sCARE's argument is that the towers in NYC (and other places) had their transmitters at an altitude higher than people were living. On Lookout, they claim there are residents who live at the same altitude as the transmitters on the proposed LCG tower.

They use the argument that radiation drops exponentially the further away you get from the tower to "prove" that someone living at the same altitude as the LCG transmitters is at exponentially more risk.

So they claim that Lookout is really unique in the country.

dr_mal

05-18-04, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by oxothuk
Frankly I wish they would just stay at Republic until they are ready to go full-power on Mt. Morrison. With one orientation on my CM4228 I can pick up all the Republic signals along with the medium-power signals from Lookout. If KRMA goes ahead with this plan I'll probably have to either give them up or get a rotator.
KRMA claims that their low power transmitter at a higher altitude will give them better coverage of the Denver area. So it's possibly you may be able to still pick them up without a rotator. I probably will be able to, since from Brighton, it's roughly the same direction to downtown or Lookout.

kucharsk

05-18-04, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
They use the argument that radiation drops exponentially the further away you get from the tower to "prove" that someone living at the same altitude as the LCG transmitters is at exponentially more risk. They're also the idiots who bought near towers to begin with if they were so frightened of them.

The towers have been there forever; just to spite SCARE if LCG is forced to build somewhere else I'd leave the analog towers up and cranked up to full power until the end of time... :D

(Not to mention of course the fact that every one of the idiots gets more radiation daily from use of their cell phone than they would from the LCG tower...)

jpfletcher

05-18-04, 04:55 PM

plus more radiation from living at a higher altitude.

Mgibsoj

05-18-04, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by jpfletcher
plus more radiation from living at a higher altitude.

You must have heard the same thing that I heard from the guy who did the radon testing - the mountain homes have a much, much higher amount of radon problems, many exceeding the safety limit by 10 times or more. So, how many of the 'concerned' people there have installed radon removal systems... hmmm.... The proposed tower even at full power is only a fraction of the safety limit. Maybe they are going after the wrong source? Or perhaps the extra sun rays giving more UV?

jpfletcher

05-18-04, 05:21 PM

Someone mentioned, way back when, that someone should call the authorities on these sCARE people that have children for child endangerment for living in an area they consider dangerous.

If they truly believed that there was a health concern, they would move out now. Otherwise they are completely full of it.

Geof

05-18-04, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal

So they claim that Lookout is really unique in the country. I agree that it's unique. What other place in this country would let people build houses near the towers and then let them hold the whole community hostage because they claim they're being radiated to the point of serious illness when everyone knows that is BS and all the money grubbing folks want is to increase their property values.

I think we need some Deadwood characters to take charge of filtering the crap and shinola.

Lawood

05-18-04, 10:10 PM

I wonder just what will be allowed at the hearing. The headline says the following.
County Commissioners to Re~open Portions of Lake Cedar Rezoning Case.

So does this mean that the BCC hearing will only be based on two arguments:

1) The Court found that LCG submitted additional documentation in support of its application less than 21 days before the final public hearing, in violation of a County regulation.

2) The Court found that LCG had not submitted any competent evidence on the issue of guy wires.

Does anybody know what was in the additional documentation and what it relates to. If by chance it was also related to the guy wires then I would think that nothing out side the scope of guy wires should be allowed. Just pray that it has nothing to do with radiation. Enough is enough is enough.

Geof

05-18-04, 11:23 PM

I suspect the scope of the hearings will be limited. Whether or not they can accomplish all that in one evening remains to be seen. The BCC will surely have to vote on the application once again otherwise there would be no point in re-opening the hearings. The question thus becomes will any testimony sway the BCC and will the final outcome still be the same? Personally I would not take any bets on that. I sort of recall that ALL of the Commissioners were term limited (someone please correct me if I have this wrong) so they could just vote the thing down and let the next group of Commissioners deal with the situation. I'd sure like to know why this hearing was deferred until after the primary election, and I'd also like to know what the existing commissioners plan to do after their terms expire.

dr_mal

05-18-04, 11:39 PM

I thought 2 of the commissioners were term limited and the 3rd isn't seeking reelection.

I tend to think (maybe wishfully?) that the commissioners will be so POed that they had to open this again, that they'll lean towards voting the same way as before (to discourage this type of thing from happening again?)

Geof

05-19-04, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by dr_mal
I thought 2 of the commissioners were term limited and the 3rd isn't seeking reelection.

I tend to think (maybe wishfully?) that the commissioners will be so POed that they had to open this again, that they'll lean towards voting the same way as before (to discourage this type of thing from happening again?) You may be right....in any event the whole BCC will be new come January.

And I hope your voting theory is right....;)

Iwanthd

05-19-04, 09:21 AM

It would seem logical to me to limit the testimony to the issues at hand, namely the guy wires and the late submissions. The fact that the BCC still consists of the same 3 members that have heard all the testimony from top to bottom should be considered a plus. It was not easy for the BCC members to make the decision that they did last August. Theoretically they made their ruling based on many months of hearings and careful consideration of a large volume of technical information.
None of that information has changed.
I would rather have this group of Commissioners complete the task of the new hearings as they are the most educated on all sides of the issues.
It would be much more efficient for the current board to limit the scope of the hearings and confirm their previous decision than to start from scratch with a brand new set of Commissioners.

Geof

05-19-04, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Iwanthd
It would seem logical to me to limit the testimony to the issues at hand, namely the guy wires and the late submissions. The fact that the BCC still consists of the same 3 members that have heard all the testimony from top to bottom should be considered a plus. It was not easy for the BCC members to make the decision that they did last August. Theoretically they made their ruling based on many months of hearings and careful consideration of a large volume of technical information.
None of that information has changed.
I would rather have this group of Commissioners complete the task of the new hearings as they are the most educated on all sides of the issues.
It would be much more efficient for the current board to limit the scope of the hearings and confirm their previous decision than to start from scratch with a brand new set of Commissioners. You'd get no argument from me on any of that...except to recognize the caveat that situations change and any reasons for voting yes last time around may be mitigated this time around because of the new testimony or because of "lobbying" or because of other unknown reasons.

wabisabi

05-19-04, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Geof
You may be right....in any event the whole BCC will be new come January.

Actually, there will be two new Commissioners in January, and the third has two more years left (but he is term limited).

-Wabisabi

Geof

05-19-04, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by wabisabi
Actually, there will be two new Commissioners in January, and the third has two more years left (but he is term limited).

-Wabisabi Okay great. Thanks for the info....I knew you'd know.

I tried to find this info on the JeffCo web site but failed....As an aside, it was easy to find out this info on the Douglas County site.

wabisabi

05-19-04, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Geof
Okay great. Thanks for the info....I knew you'd know.

I tried to find this info on the JeffCo web site but failed....As an aside, it was easy to find out this info on the Douglas County site.

Why would the Douglas County site have info on the Jeffco Commissioners?;)

-Wabisabi

(sorry, about the joke, but I couldn't resist)

Lawood

05-19-04, 12:07 PM

In case anybody would like to re-read the article that was in the Rocky Mountain News relating to the judges decision you can find it on CARE's web site.

santellavision

05-19-04, 06:25 PM

Has anybody figured out how the other issue (The non-recorded emails) is going to play in all this?

Iwanthd

05-20-04, 12:20 PM

I f you read Judge Jackson order (page 17 lines 10-20) it appears that the new hearing will be very specific in nature. The testimony will address the information in "Tab 2" of LCG's report and the issue of guy wires hitting houses if they fail.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/pdfs/JudgeJacksonOrder051704.pdf

santellavision

05-20-04, 02:15 PM

So...

We wait until August for these hearings. SCARE most likely loses. Then they hit the JeffCo Commissioners and LCG with with additional lawsuits pertaining to the Commissioners errors on the email record keeping. Throwing another injuction into play to drag this out for months and months and months ad infinitium.

I really don't hate lawyers, well, maybe one!

David_Levin

05-20-04, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
sCARE's argument is that the towers in NYC (and other places) had their transmitters at an altitude higher than people were living. On Lookout, they claim there are residents who live at the same altitude as the transmitters on the proposed LCG tower.

Weren't the towers going to be lower so they could be astectically blended into the mountain-side (to appease the residents)?

Move em' back to the top !!!

RonAuger

05-20-04, 05:30 PM

[pg 4 line10] The law makes it very clear that the merits of the decision, that is the decision of the Board of County Commissioners, is not an issue that is before this Court or that will ever be before this Court. This Court's jurisdiction under Rule 106 is limited, and it does not go to the merits of the decision whether to approve or not to approve the location of the TV transmission tower on Lookout Mountain. The Court can't overrule the decision. Only the Board can change their minds. It seems to me, the only purpose of this court action is to be a PITA.[pg6 line19] That rule goes on to say that to ensure completeness and to allow adequate public review, there may be no substantial revisions or additions within 21 days prior to any public hearing except. And I mean to say substantial revisions or additions to any application or supporting documents within 21 days prior to any public hearing except in response to an agency or staff request or those specifically requested by the Planning Commission or the Board of County Commissioners.

[pg8 line3] The plaintiffs indicate that possibly the items that are submitted on the record at Tab 2(j) and 2(i) of the materials could be regarded as responsive to County Attorney Tuthill's request. The plaintiff argues that they are not truly responsive. But even assuming, as I will assume, that they were a good faith effort to respond to the Tuthill request, there's no indication that any of the other materials were submitted in response to a request.

[pg9 line8] The Court finds that implicit because of the purpose for the rule as stated in the body of the rule, i.e., to ensure completeness and to allow adequate public review. There cannot be adequate public review if the public did not have a reasonable opportunity to confront the information, and even if they could have reviewed it, there could not be adequate public review if they were not afforded the opportunity to respond to it.In other words, LCG gave them more documentation than what was specifically asked for. Regardless, sCARE has a right to comment on it.[pg11 line7] The Court is not prepared to say that if the plaintiffs had had an opportunity reasonably to respond to the new materials it would not have made a difference. That is for the Board to decide.The Court won't say that sCARE's review/response to the late submitted material is only rhetoric and doesn't matter. That's for the Board to imply by voting again to approve. Does anyone think that more bullshit commentary/testimony would make the Board reverse their decision? I highly doubt it.[pg12 line 4] And while the applicant is entitled to the last word, and the opponent is not entitled to the last word, the opponent is entitled to have a word, and in the this case, the opponent, the Court finds, on the record had no opportunity to respond to these materials.So go ahead and have your word sCARE, and let's get going building the tower!!!

Really, does anyone think that Deb and party will ever go away without forcing another "last word" in some legal form or another?!

dr_mal

05-20-04, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by David_Levin
Weren't the towers going to be lower so they could be astectically blended into the mountain-side (to appease the residents)?

Move em' back to the top !!!
The Morrison tower will be lower on the mountain and blended into the mountainside. If the end result is anything like the artistic renderings, the tower should be virtually invisible unless you're very close to the property.

The Lookout tower has always been designed to be pretty high up.

oxothuk

05-20-04, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
The Lookout tower has always been designed to be pretty high up. IIRC from the discussion last summer, the LCG2 proposal which they approved put the base of the tower 730 feet below the summit. I don't remember how tall the tower was.

Geof

05-20-04, 06:21 PM

Good summary Ron.

I tend to be a bit nervous about this and I think there's a chance a vote may be changed but it seems likely that the final outcome will be the application will be approved (again).

dr_mal

05-20-04, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by oxothuk
IIRC from the discussion last summer, the LCG2 proposal which they approved put the base of the tower 730 feet below the summit. I don't remember how tall the tower was.
I'm pretty sure the LCG tower is above the summit. I think they may have moved it down 730 feet or so from the current (or LCG1 proposed) elevation, but it'll definitely stick up above the summit.

wabisabi

05-20-04, 07:01 PM

Page 10, line 1 -3 "The extra materials discussed alternative sites, which was one of the key issues raised in the proceedings."

So, it is going to be more than just guy wires that they can talk about.

-Wabisabi

santellavision

05-20-04, 07:17 PM

The extra materials discussed alternative sites, which was one of the key issues raised in the proceedings.Who's materials? LCG or sCARE?

I sent Pete M. an email asking if I need to break out our reception map to testify that no one can receive KBDI west of Wadsworth. Haven't heard back yet.

I'm sure Weird Al will be there, no doubt with his charts and graphs too. One of the favorite sayings I remember from college is... Graphs Don't Lie, but Liers Graph! How true, How true.

joej

05-21-04, 08:39 AM

O.K., what is up with the new stretch on KWGN? Did they get some new TV's from the same place that KDVR got theres?

Come on guys, there are two aspect ratios for TV A) 4:3 or B) 16:9, pick one, I don't care which (that is a lie, I pick B.) but we don't have a C) None of the above here, or D) Other.

Unless some one knows where I can get a 14:9 TV for KDVR and a 15:9 TV for KWGN I'll go back to lurking.

Later
Joe

Geof

05-21-04, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by joej
O.K., what is up with the new stretch on KWGN? Did they get some new TV's from the same place that KDVR got theres?

Come on guys, there are two aspect ratios for TV A) 4:3 or B) 16:9, pick one, I don't care which (that is a lie, I pick B.) but we don't have a C) None of the above here, or D) Other.

Unless some one knows where I can get a 14:9 TV for KDVR and a 15:9 TV for KWGN I'll go back to lurking.

Later
Joe I'm with you.

mbuchana

05-21-04, 10:12 AM

Just to illustrate that there is no concensus, I'll say that I kind of like the 14:9/15:9 that KDVR and now KWGN do. I think it's a reasonable compromise when upconverting 4:3 material. KWGN's version does crop a bit too much though, in my opinion.

A couple of pages back, and much earlier, there was a lot of discussion about this, and there didn't seem to be a lot of agreement. Opinions also varied depending on what type of set a person owned (4:3 or 16:9) and what kind of manipulations could be done by the user on the receiving end.

Even though I like the 14:9, I suspect unmodified 4:3 gets the fewest hostile reactions (and I don't object to it either).

I suspect the stations will continue to experiment with different formats for awhile.

Mark

squidboy

05-21-04, 05:52 PM

I'm with Joe and Geof. Pick one aspect ratio or the other, don't do some funky size that we can't get back to OAR.

Personally, I liked the 16:9 because I have a RPTV and a little worried about burn-in. However, I can switch the 16:9 back to 4:3 with my STB, and I can stretch 4:3 with my TV, so either one really works for me.

Although it may seem a little blasphemous to some of you, I'll be watching KWGN's SD channel when they have strange stretching going on.

Joe,

I believe there are some plasmas out there that are 14:9. Don't ask me why.

John Schuermann

05-21-04, 05:57 PM

Hello all -

Here is the most up-to-date info on the Denver Home Theater Projector Expo we are holding at the Marriot Tech Center June 5th and 6th. Everyone is welcome:

Dates - June 5th and 6th

Location - The Marriott Tech Center
4900 South Syracuse Denver, CO 80237 USA
Phone: 1 303-779-1100 Fax: 1 303-740-2523

Toll free 1-800-444-2206, specify Tech Center Marriott

Room rate $69.00 single/double

Projectors:

Screenplay 777 (new 3 chip DLP from Infocus)
JVC HX1
Sharp XVZ12000
Screenplay 7205
Studio Experience 50HD
Optoma H76
NEC HT-1100 (with anamorphic lens)
Screenplay 5700
Studio Experience 2HD (Sanyo Z2 clone)
Screenplay 4805

We're still trying to get a SIM HD2+ for the show.

We will have screens and samples from Stewart, Dalite, Vutec, Carada, and Screen Research.

Infocus may have representatives in person for a presentation on the 777, 7205, and 4805 PLUS have given us free reign to use them INDEPENDENTLY in the shootout.

We will have a Bravo D1 DVD player as a giveaway on day one, a D2 as a giveaway on day 2.

Projectors will be shown sequentially with about an hour devoted to each - we are thinking 5 a day.

We hope to have all projectors ISF calibrated prior to the event.

Tentative schedule:

Day One: 10 am - 12 pm: General Front Projection/HDTV Presentation plus Q and A OR Infocus presentation

12 - 1 pm - Lunch Break

1 - 6 pm - Projector Shootout

After 6, we're all heading to the bar and restaurant. Inebriated Q and A session to follow, for anyone wanting to hang around!

Day Two: 10 am - 12 pm: Screens! Comparison between greys and whites

12 - 1 pm - Food!

1 - 6 pm - Projector Shootout part two

The actual schedule may be massaged a bit, but the dates and location are now LOCKED IN.

E-mail me or Brad at the addresses below for more. We hope to see many of you there!

John

gkanders

05-21-04, 06:41 PM

Thanks for the info, John. Unfortunately for me, we'll be camping at the Sand Dunes that w/e. I hope they have some water down there this year.

Have fun. I'd be there if I were here. Looking forward to reading people's opinions in the two projector forums.

Greg

mbuchana

05-23-04, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by squidboy
I'm with Joe and Geof. Pick one aspect ratio or the other, don't do some funky size that we can't get back to OAR.

I can't get 16:9 back to OAR with my receiver. So the 16:9 stretch ends up by far the most distorted. Once again, what a person's preference is seems to be influenced a great deal by what they can do at the receiving end.

Mark

chile62

05-23-04, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by gkanders
Thanks for the info, John. Unfortunately for me, we'll be camping at the Sand Dunes that w/e. I hope they have some water down there this year.

Greg

Hey I grew up down there, had a great view of the dunes from my folks back door.

Hope you have a great time.

joej

05-24-04, 08:53 AM

I'm with squidboy, if the stretch is something weird I turn it back to the SD channel (or find something else to watch) so I can manipulate it the way I want to.

My TV will not allow me to change anything other than 480i. Not that I could change the 14:9 or 15:9 anyway since they have already decided to crop the picture the way they feel fit.

I didn't mind the stretch of the 4:3 to 16:9 as that is what I do as well. Sometimes things look a little thick, but when they do the 15:9 stuff they chop off the very top of Ernie B.'s head and it looks very strange to me.

Later
Joe

Geof

05-24-04, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by mbuchana
I can't get 16:9 back to OAR with my receiver. So the 16:9 stretch ends up by far the most distorted. Once again, what a person's preference is seems to be influenced a great deal by what they can do at the receiving end.

Mark Agreed.

But, I don't think anyone here can deal with turning 14x9 or 15x9 back to either 16x9 or 4x3.

What is it with this weird stuff anyway. Sounds like some half attempt to compromise between 16x9 and 4x3. Why? Picking something that isn't standard means everyone has to live with this compromise.

I used to watch some up-converted SD material on KWGN but I'll just move along and find it somewhere else where I don't have to deal with some half-assed non-standardized AR.

squidboy

05-24-04, 12:10 PM

On a sort of related note,

Anyone know why KWGN didn't pass Star Trek II in HD this month?

Have they lost their good engineers that know what is going on? Do you KWGN folk still read this forum?

JMartinko

05-25-04, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Geof

But, I don't think anyone here can deal with turning 14x9 or 15x9 back to either 16x9 or 4x3.

What is it with this weird stuff anyway. Sounds like some half attempt to compromise between 16x9 and 4x3. Why? Picking something that isn't standard means everyone has to live with this compromise.

I used to watch some up-converted SD material on KWGN but I'll just move along and find it somewhere else where I don't have to deal with some half-assed non-standardized AR.

Flipped on 2 last night just to see what people are complaining about. What a travesty! I agree with Geof and others, pick a format, either stretch to 16x9 or stay 4x3, and stick with it. Whatever they are using is the worst of both worlds. When I flipped on the channel last night they were scrolling a weather warning at the top of the screen. The scroll was mostly off screen because of their weird mode, so although you could tell they were trying to send me a message you could not read it very well since you had to guess at many of the letters. That sure doesn't sound like even a 'compromise' solution when people using DTV for your signal can't read a tornado warning on the screen. Whatever happened to the engineers from 2 who were reading the forum?????

santellavision

05-25-04, 11:13 AM

I just dropped Don Rooney (KWGN) an email to check the thread, maybe he'll comment. He's posted quite a bit before.

mbuchana

05-25-04, 01:43 PM

I agree that the KWGN 15-ish:9 crops too much. I haven't seen that problem on KDVR.

Mark

santellavision

05-25-04, 04:01 PM

Don emailed me back and said they were going to change the weird crop by next week. But, he didn't say to what! ;)

joej

05-25-04, 04:19 PM

Hey Ernie

That is great news! Hopefully they will change it to something a little more standard.

Later
Joe

David_Levin

05-25-04, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by joej
O.K., what is up with the new stretch on KWGN? Did they get some new TV's from the same place that KDVR got theres?

Oh, that's what that was. Was watching Andromeda with a 921 on a 16:9 projector via DVI. This usually comes in letterboxed and I can usually use letterbox mode on the projector to get full screen.

With this mess it was either black space all around, or over zoom and crop off some of the picture.

It's absurd if we can't get widescreen material to fill a widescreen TV. There are standards for a reason.

Sheesh.

(I spent 5 minutes cycling though 921 and Projector zoom modes before giving up)

Mgibsoj

05-25-04, 06:49 PM

At first I thought the zoomed 4:3 was an improvement while watching the news, but then I tried to watch Star Trek (Wrath of Khan) the other night (which my guide showed as HD). Not only was it not HD, it was cropped for 4:3, and even further cropped for 15:9. Ugh! Couldn't watch it. Anyway, now on my Sammy 360, it is stretched again, but the PSIP issues have returned in that my Hughes e86 has only a dark screen and silence. Reboot didn't help.

Too bad stations don't treat their DTV channel like it was their store front. If they treated their DTV channel like it was their only one, I doubt that they'd want their newscasters looking like one eye is in Nebraska and the other in Utah.

kucharsk

05-25-04, 09:46 PM

Frankly, I don't think any stations really care; even KUSA was sending bad PSIPs last Sunday morning. :-(

(I'm particularly sensitive to this, as when the Samsung SIR-T165 gets bad PSIP data rather than not display a picture it hard hangs, requiring you to disconnect the antenna cable before you can change channels again (!)...)

David_Levin

05-25-04, 10:05 PM

As far as aspect ratios, I do think they care, but it's a difficult problem.

I can't cout how may times I've tried to explain to my father why my Laser Discs (and now DVDs) don't fill the TV screen.

I'll always take original-aspect-ratio, but then we have the plasma people terrified about burn-in. Certainly many of the uneducated HDTV buyers are going to think they're being ripped off if the picture doesn't fill the screen.

Someone is always going to be unhappy. Of course, I say, go with OAR, try and educate the user, and let him stretch and distort if he wishes.

Geof

05-25-04, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by David_Levin
As far as aspect ratios, I do think they care, but it's a difficult problem.

I can't cout how may times I've tried to explain to my father why my Laser Discs (and now DVDs) don't fill the TV screen.

I'll always take original-aspect-ratio, but then we have the plasma people terrified about burn-in. Certainly many of the uneducated HDTV buyers are going to think they're being ripped off if the picture doesn't fill the screen.

Someone is always going to be unhappy. Of course, I say, go with OAR, try and educate the user, and let him stretch and distort if he wishes. Valid points but 14x9 or 15x9 doesn't really help resolve these matters. HDTV is 16x9 and (I would think) most HDTV buyers would understand stretching 4x3 to fill a 16x9 or just leaving it at 4x3. How do you explain to them that some Plasmas prefer a funky 14/15x9 (is that really true?) so some stations send that to prevent burn-in.

I guess the only real answer to this is to make more versatile receivers that have scaling capabilities to allow each user to tailor the AR to his/her delight.

oxothuk

05-25-04, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
At first I thought the zoomed 4:3 was an improvement while watching the news, but then I tried to watch Star Trek (Wrath of Khan) the other night (which my guide showed as HD). Not only was it not HD, it was cropped for 4:3, and even further cropped for 15:9. Makes me glad I didn't stay up to see it!

KWGN-DT

05-26-04, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by santellavision
Don emailed me back and said they were going to change the weird crop by next week. But, he didn't say to what! ;)

Hi Forum Members:

Sorry for our absence recently, we have been involved in numerous projects. Myself, Dave & the rest of our staff ARE interested in our DTV product and value your insights.

We changed to the 14:9 stretch/crop as an experiment. I admit it didn't work. We have reverted to the 16:9, which seems to be agreeable to most folks. I know at home I can choose to watch the 16:9 or switch my DLP to display a 4:3 with side panels.

We will try to stay in touch with the forum.

Thanks to all of you for your comments & interest in KWGN/WB2.

Sincerely,
Don

KWGN-DT

05-26-04, 09:49 AM

As everyone noticed, Don replied regarding the AR and the change from 16x9 to 14x9 and now back to 16x9. I will address the problem with Star Trek not in HD last weekend. We receive the HD movies via satellite and generally it is only distributed once. We had a problem receiving the feed and thus, were not able to broadcast the movie in HD. The HD distribution is a relatively new procedure but we are working on some redundancy features to ensure we do not miss another feed.

As with all new technology there are still some bugs to work out but we do or best to deliver the highest quality possible, be it SD or HD.

Please feel free to e-mail me directly with questions or observations

damartinez@wb2.com

Thanks!

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV
DTV-34,2-1,2-2

Geof

05-26-04, 10:20 AM

Thanks much for listening KWGN....

RonAuger

05-26-04, 10:51 AM

KWGN,
Thanks for listening and responding. I watching ST:WOK too and was disappointed in seeing SD, but we understand this is a learning period for the broadcasters. It's nice to hear feedback on what went wrong.

joej

05-26-04, 11:07 AM

Thanks KWGN, we really do appreciate it.

Joe

markdl

05-26-04, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
We changed to the 14:9 stretch/crop as an experiment. I admit it didn't work. We have reverted to the 16:9, which seems to be agreeable to most folks. I know at home I can choose to watch the 16:9 or switch my DLP to display a 4:3 with side panels.

Hi Don, and thanks for checking in. I hope that you realize that you are in the minority being able to unstretch KWGN's stretch and watch in 4:3 with sidebars. On my 3 different receivers, I can stretch 4:3 images to fill my 16:9 screen, but I can't unstretch. And I don't believe many other people can as well. So, I have no option but to watch the stretched image, which honestly is why I watch the SD version of your channel when there's something in SD that I want to watch, as opposed to your digital channel. The digital channel has a far superior picture (still the best one in town), but the stretch is just too much for me.

David_Levin

05-26-04, 12:35 PM

The only thing I was watching on KMGH was Andromeda which I believe is a 4:3 letterboxed source.

So is it correct that I'm receiving it (before the funky 14:9 experiment) horizontally stretched to fill widescreen 16:9?

I believe from there, my TV has a mode which can vertically remove the original top/bottom letterbox (crop). So I then end up with the correct aspect ratio.

This is still forcing multiple passes through scalers.

Mark: I see what your saying. My solution on 4:3 (non-lbx) source would be chopping off the top/bottom of the picture.

I really feel nothing should ever be distorted at the source. 4:3 letterbox on the HD channel should arrive with boxing all around. It's then at the users discretion to scale and distort.

rmaestas

05-26-04, 10:11 PM

After the switching back by KWGN to 16X9 format I am no longer receiving KWGN Channel 34 which I have remapped to 2-1. I have a Hughes E86 STB showing a 100% signal strength. Anyone else not receiving KWGN this evening, 8:00pm, May 26th? We were looking forward to seeing Ace Ventura Pet Detective this evening.

Anyone receiving Ace Ventura Pet Detective this evening using a Hughes E86 STB, and if so is it in HD OAR format.

Thanks

mbuchana

05-27-04, 12:36 AM

I am no longer receiving KWGN-DT on my Echostar 6000. Signal strength is good, but no picture/sound. I wasn't receiving it last night either, so I also think I lost it sometime around the time they switched back to 16:9 stretch.

Mark

gkanders

05-27-04, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by David_Levin
The only thing I was watching on KMGH was Andromeda which I believe is a 4:3 letterboxed source.

So is it correct that I'm receiving it (before the funky 14:9 experiment) horizontally stretched to fill widescreen 16:9?

I believe from there, my TV has a mode which can vertically remove the original top/bottom letterbox (crop). So I then end up with the correct aspect ratio.

I believe you are correct. When things come in 16:9 letterbox, I too see them on KWGN stretched so they are still too wide. This is too bad for me, because I can't "unstretch" or zoom with my STB, and my TV locks in on the HD Input. So I can either watch the 480i output from my STB (which is OK, but not great), where I can get closer to the right picture (just zoomed to the 16:9 full screen IMO). Or I can watch analog channel 2, and my TV will zoom it correctly.

In my case, the TV and the STB don't quite "understand" each other, and overall, I think the stretch makes it a little worse in my personal situation.

But I understand I'm not the only one watching, so I guess I think that the ful stretch they are back to doing is all right :)

Greg

Iwanthd

05-27-04, 10:54 AM

Did anyone else notice that the final show of American Idol last night appeared to be an upconvert of Fox's widescreen "high resolution" format?
It looked like a 16:9 format instead of the 14:9 we usually see on 31-1.

santellavision

05-27-04, 11:17 AM

I was an up-convert, as was Tuesday's idol. Nice, but still not HD!

Iwanthd

05-27-04, 12:03 PM

Was this the first time AI was in widescreen?

Oops, just found the thread in HDTV Programming
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=405827

Phil T

05-27-04, 12:46 PM

It looked nice, but with my antenna pointed towards Republic, I was getting dropouts every few minutes. The family made me switch to the SD Tivo. :(

markdl

05-27-04, 05:25 PM

I was getting terrible dropouts all night last night on Fox as well, and usually I have no trouble receiving their signal even with my antenna pointing towards republic.

bikenski

05-30-04, 07:00 PM

I'm not getting any sound on 2-1 or 2-2 from my Samsung 360. This seems to be a common issue with this box - last time it happened was when KDVR-DT went to 720p.

Is anyone else having sound issues with KWGN-DT?

Phil T

05-30-04, 07:30 PM

Yea, my 360 is not getting sound either and is locking up on 2-1 & 2-2.

oxothuk

05-30-04, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by bikenski
Is anyone else having sound issues with KWGN-DT? No sound for me, on a Samsung SIR-T151.

Edit: well, sound is back now as of about 6:40 PM

donyoop

06-01-04, 08:50 AM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=406374&pagenumber=3

If this ever happens, I will apply for the waiver and then promptly get turned down by the Denver Channel because a) we'll have the tower in 2 months, and b) I am already within the reception area for 17.

Don

Mgibsoj

06-01-04, 12:40 PM

Actually, unless the waiver process has changed recently, it doesn't distinguish between your ability to receive the DTV channel vs. the analog one - because they are the 'same service'. If you are in a grade A, it is impossible to get a waiver, grade B is almost impossible, unless the station claiming the grade 'B' status knows they would lose if they traveled and measured your analog signal to find it non-existent at your location. Some stations (at least around here) seem to exaggerate their coverage area significantly to increase their viewership numbers for ad revenue.

mrvideo

06-02-04, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by weldon
It doesn't mean that Hollywood isn't out to limit home-recording, but in this case they didn't have anything to do with the HD-TiVo not having an analog input. The technology isn't there for a consumer product (at least not yet).

I do not believe there will be a yet. Hollywood is totally afraid of anyone being able to do anything with HD video, other than just watch it. I'm guessing that manufacturers are gun shy and don't want to release any product for consumers to do what many want to do. The situation sucks.

I currently have the Samsung SIR-T165, which allows me to record to my D-VHS deck, via firewire (try and archive TiVo-HD :-). I went looking at Samsung's current product lineup for a local restaurant and discovered that Samsung no longer makes a unit that has firewire output.

The home recording rights are slowly vanishing. I'm talking about archiving. Obviously TiVo-HD allows one to record. But I don't know of a way to archive it.

mrvideo

06-02-04, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by kucharsk
As a C/Ku owner, just to clarify a few things:
Unfortunately, the only network HD feed available on C/Ku band satellite is PBS, and even that is the rebroadcast HD feed of Nebraska PBS. HD feeds for ABC, CBS and NBC are in fact on the birds, but each is transmitted using a proprietary digital format requiring the use of an expensive digital decoder that would be a minimum of $4000 - $5000 to buy even if you wanted one. Then even if you did spend the money, there would be no way to get your particular box authorized to receive the HD satellite signal.

I'm sorry, but this is totally false info.

ABC, CBS, UPN and The WB are using QPSK 4:2:0 that is receivable via the IT-910s receiver (which also does OTA reception). That box is less than $1k and falling. NBC is indeed using 4:2:2 8PSK. I think it is 8PSK. Even if they used QPSK, there isn't a receiver in the consumer price range that will give you component output. Fox isn't HD yet, but when they are, they will be 4:2:2 8PSK. None of them are encrypted, so if you got an IT-912s receiver, you'd have no problem watching the 4:2:0 QPSK feeds.

I haven't purchased said receiver because it doesn't have firewire out, so I can't record it. Even if it did have firewire out, the receiver would have to convert the feed to ATSC so that the D-VHS deck could record it and that would price the receiver out of the hands of the consumer.

When HDNet first started up, they too were viewable via consumer receivers. But they've now gone encrypted.

BTW, while you won't be able to record the HD output from the IT-912s receiver, you can record the downconverted 480i video, which will be in 16:9 anamorphic. At least you'll have it in 16:9, playable as 4:3 letterbox (if you only have 4:3), or widescreen on your 16:9 display.

mrvideo

06-02-04, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Couch Patato
Had a great time last night at 9 News. Very informative! They have put alot of work into it. For those that did not make it, here are my photos. They are down rezed quite a bit so they are not as sharp as the full sized photos. http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Colorado59/9%20News%20HD/?sort=descending

Thanks for the images. But I have to ask. What did you use to resize the images, as they have artifacting problems, as if pixels were thrown away from the images instead of the image being pixel averaged when resized?

Couch Patato

06-02-04, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by mrvideo
Thanks for the images. But I have to ask. What did you use to resize the images, as they have artifacting problems, as if pixels were thrown away from the images instead of the image being pixel averaged when resized?

lol, yea I know. Well I first downsized them with Zoom Browser that came with the Canon S50 so I could speed up the upload to photobucket. Then If they are still too big, then photobucket will auto downsize them. I'm sure that's where they lost rez. Out of the camera they averaged 3mb & look great.

kucharsk

06-02-04, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by mrvideo
I'm sorry, but this is totally false info.

ABC, CBS, UPN and The WB are using QPSK 4:2:0 that is receivable via the IT-910s receiver (which also does OTA reception). That box is less than $1k and falling. NBC is indeed using 4:2:2 8PSK. I think it is 8PSK. Even if they used QPSK, there isn't a receiver in the consumer price range that will give you component output. Fox isn't HD yet, but when they are, they will be 4:2:2 8PSK. None of them are encrypted, so if you got an IT-912s receiver, you'd have no problem watching the 4:2:0 QPSK feeds.
Mea Culpa, Mike.

At the time I wrote this I wasn't aware the networks were available via satellite in HD (well, for the moment anyway) in QPSK MPEG2; last I had heard CBS was using a commercial version of DCII (MegaPipe or SCPC) and I suspect it's only a matter of time before ABC either encrypts or moves to 4:2:2 encoding given how anal they are about using Leitch on their analog feeds.

Then again, living in Madison you've had several full power ATSC stations to choose from for years now, where it will likely be at least as long as you've had HD before we here in Denver see our first full power ATSC station, thanks to the NIMBYs at SCARE...

mrvideo

06-02-04, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by kucharsk
At the time I wrote this I wasn't aware the networks were available via satellite in HD (well, for the moment anyway) in QPSK MPEG2; last I had heard CBS was using a commercial version of DCII (MegaPipe or SCPC) and I suspect it's only a matter of time before ABC either encrypts or moves to 4:2:2 encoding given how anal they are about using Leitch on their analog feeds.

CBS dumped that transmission mode because it seems that DD5.1 couldn't be done with that stream. That is what I heard.

ABC isn't very anal these days. While they do turn it on, there are many times where they do not. They are really weird when it comes to turning on scrambling. As for the HD feed, I doubt that they'll encrypt, since so few people have the necessary receivers and since you can't record the HD feed as HD (480i only), I doubt that they are worried. Even the broadcast flag thingy allows users to make multiple copies of downrezzed versions. My equipment will ignore the broadcast flag since none of the pieces knows anything about it. Personally I think the flag is stupid. It is like trying to close the barn doors after all the animals have escaped.

I'm actually surprised that ABC hasn't gone digital for their SD network feeds. Maybe they are just waiting until NTSC is completely turned off, so they don't have to spend the money for the infrastructure. Fox is kinda doing it right by having their SD and HD feeds all on the same mux. When SD goes away, the SD streams can just be turned off, returning the bits to the HD streams.

BTW, CTV is converting from QPSK 4:2:0 to 8PSK 4:2:2 for their SD streams and 4:2:0 for the HD stream (all on the same mux). But, it too requires a commercial receiver.

Then again, living in Madison you've had several full power ATSC stations to choose from for years now, where it will likely be at least as long as you've had HD before we here in Denver see our first full power ATSC station, thanks to the NIMBYs at SCARE...

I do not believe the stations are all full power. I'll have to ask. For sure the NBC affiliate isn't, because I have a hard time with them and they are about 1.5 miles away and I have a 120 mile antenna on a rotor. A little bit off and it nulls out. The problem with them is that they have a temporary sidemount antenna because their tower will not support another heavy antenna. The WB affiliate's tower is in Janesville and they recently got a license change that allows them to move to Madison. So, the company that owns the station is paying for a new tower that is currently being erected next to the current tower. It will be taller and will be used for both the WB and NBC affiliates. But, because the company spent all their money on the new tower, Madison is on the bottom of the food chain for going HD. They are not getting the studio upgraded for HD and the chief engineer doesn't expect to be able to go HD any time in the future, including in 2005.

As for UPN, we do not have a UPN affiliate, per se. We used to, but the group that bought the station that was, converted it to a WB affiliate. The station that was putting The WB on local cable became the UPN affiliate, via cable. They also put the UPN net on the SD side of their HD signal. Lots of macroblocks with the UPN signal, which I don't care about since I can get CBS/UPN off the bird and Enterprise via the clean feed.

Fox you know won't be HD until this fall and Sinclair, which owns the local affiliate, is only spending enough money to get the Fox HD passed through. The local Fox affiliate infrastructure is still analog.

So, my Madison HD is not as good as you think. I only have ABC, NBC, CBS and PBS. Both the NBC and CBS stations place a local bug in the upper-right corner, which totally sucks. The PBS affiliate places a bug in the upper-right when the feed has a bug in the lower-right. There will be no WB HD in the near future and I don't ever expect to see UPN in HD in this town. Fox should be HD by fall.

Yes, what I currently have is better than what most people can get in the Denver area, but I don't get every network in HD.

dr_mal

06-02-04, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by mrvideo
The home recording rights are slowly vanishing. I'm talking about archiving.
I really hestitate to open this can of worms in an already bloated thread, but here goes.

We never had the right to archive. We have the legal right to timeshift, which TiVo, Dish's 921, and whatever other boxes out there have.

For a long time, we've enjoyed the illegal privelege of archiving off air. It was never legal, and it was never a right.

Heck, I'm having a hard enough time keeping up to everything my TiVos record for me -- I don't have time to go back and watch all the stuff I thought was so important it had to be archived. Anything that I'll truly want to watch over and over again, I'll leave on my TiVo or wait until HD-DVD comes out.

santellavision

06-02-04, 12:19 PM

Anything that I'll truly want to watch over and over again, I'll leave on my TiVo or wait until HD-DVD comes out.I agree! Last weeks HD-Net's 'Bikini Destinations' is staying on my 921's hard-drive. Awesome demo material.

oxothuk

06-02-04, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
I really hestitate to open this can of worms in an already bloated thread, but here goes.

We never had the right to archive. We have the legal right to timeshift, which TiVo, Dish's 921, and whatever other boxes out there have.

For a long time, we've enjoyed the illegal privelege of archiving off air. It was never legal, and it was never a right.

Heck, I'm having a hard enough time keeping up to everything my TiVos record for me -- I don't have time to go back and watch all the stuff I thought was so important it had to be archived. Anything that I'll truly want to watch over and over again, I'll leave on my TiVo or wait until HD-DVD comes out. You're right that this is a can of worms. IANAL, but my understanding is that personal archiving is considered "fair use". And I'm not sure how you would distinguish this from time-shifting anyway.

dr_mal

06-02-04, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by oxothuk
You're right that this is a can of worms. IANAL, but my understanding is that personal archiving is considered "fair use". And I'm not sure how you would distinguish this from time-shifting anyway.
Timeshifting: watching a show at a different time from when it originally aired. Emphasis on a different time.

Archiving: keeping a show you've recorded after you've watched it.

Recording a bunch of movies off HBO instead of buying them on DVD is illegal. It's not enforced, so most people think it's OK. I consider it in the same realm as speeding. Everybody does it, most people think there's nothing wrong with it, but it's against the law.

mrvideo

06-02-04, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
For a long time, we've enjoyed the illegal privelege of archiving off air. It was never legal, and it was never a right.

You're right in that it is a can of worms. But, the infamous Betamax decision never indicated, that I know of, that there was a distinction between a time-shifting recording or an archive recording. An archived recording can be considered to be a time-shifting recording, since you might watch it again later. Does a recording you place on the shelf change from an archive to a time shift when you erase it, even if it is years later?

As far as I am concerned, the Betamax case said that home recordings for personal use can be held for as long as forever.

Hollywood is trying to erode that by getting laws and hardware restrictions in place that restrict what the court ruled we can do. Even one of the authors of the DMCA is saying Oops.

mrvideo

06-02-04, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
Timeshifting: watching a show at a different time from when it originally aired. Emphasis on a different time.

Archiving: keeping a show you've recorded after you've watched it.

I take the tape I've had on the shelf for ages, having never watched the original airing. I now watch it. Is it still an archive or a time-shifted recording. Sorry, but you really can't make that distinction. Neither did the Betamax decision.

Recording a bunch of movies off HBO instead of buying them on DVD is illegal. It's not enforced, so most people think it's OK. I consider it in the same realm as speeding. Everybody does it, most people think there's nothing wrong with it, but it's against the law.

That issue has never been decided in court. No one wants to chance that the courts will again rule that it can be done. So, it isn't illegal until a court says that it is illegal.

oxothuk

06-02-04, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
Recording a bunch of movies off HBO instead of buying them on DVD is illegal. It's not enforced, so most people think it's OK. I consider it in the same realm as speeding. Everybody does it, most people think there's nothing wrong with it, but it's against the law. Even if I thought recording off HBO were illegal (I don't) your analogy to speeding is instructive. Imagine that the auto industry started installing governors on cars to enforce the speed limit, welded the hood shut to keep you from disabling the governor, and banned older cars without these governors from being able to drive on the interstate. Do you think we would put up with this? Or, just maybe, might we conclude that the speeding problem was not important enough to justify such a loss of our liberties?

John Schuermann

06-02-04, 10:05 PM

Here is the schedule for our Home Theater Projector Expo this weekend. A quick reminder:

Where: The Denver Tech Center Marriott
When: June 5th and 6th (Saturday and Sunday)

Admission is free. In fact, we are giving away a Bravo D2 DVI enabled DVD player each day.

Please keep in mind that this could change if a projector doesn't show up, work, or we have a strong request from those present to change the order:

Saturday, June 5th

10-11 am: Front Projection basics, Q and A
11-12 am: Infocus presentation
12-1 pm: Break for Lunch
1-2 pm: Screenplay 777
2-3 pm: JVC HX-1
3-4 pm: Screenplay 7205
4-5 pm: Sharp XV-Z12000
5-6 pm: Studio Experience 50HD

Sunday June 6th

10-11 am: Screens
11-12 am: BenQ PE8700
12-1 pm: Break for Lunch
1-2 pm: Optoma H76
2-3 pm: Screenplay 4805
3-4 pm: Screenplay 5700
4-5 pm: NEC HT-1100
5-6 pm: Studio Experience 2HD (Sanyo Z-2 clone)

That's it! I have not heard from JVC today regarding the HD2K. As soon as I do, I will let everyone know.

Just to make things clear, we are not buying everyone lunch! There are plenty of places to eat in and around the Marriott, most of them chains (Colorado is chain crazy, for some reason).

We are excited to meet everyone and we will do our best to put on a good show!

John

markdl

06-03-04, 01:17 PM

Looking forward to it, John! Is anyone else from around these parts (ie this thread) going?

santellavision

06-03-04, 02:03 PM

Jetlag and I are planning on going.

dr_mal

06-03-04, 03:42 PM

I'd probably go, but I'll be in Boston/Enfield, CT this weekend.

mrvideo

06-03-04, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
I'd probably go, but I'll be in Boston/Enfield, CT this weekend.

I'd go, but I'm stuck here in Madison watching the new tower go up :D

[Sorry, but I just couldn't resist. BTW, it is about 3/4 done.]

Mgibsoj

06-03-04, 04:35 PM

We could have a field trip and send some SCARE folks up your way. Then we could watch the tower come down:D

RonAuger

06-03-04, 04:55 PM

LOL!
Towers don't come down -- they just stay impotent!

mrvideo

06-03-04, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
We could have a field trip and send some SCARE folks up your way. Then we could watch the tower come down:D

Send them up when your next borad meeting is going happen, then they'll be out of your way and won't cause the passing of the application to be denied. Plus, the chances of them causing the tower not to be completed is slim-to-none :D

We'll just run them out-of-town, like the vermin they are.

Hell, I have space in my back yard to put up 4-5 more C-band dishes. I'd like to see them try and stop me from doing that. :-)

As an outsider, I can't figure out what is wrong with those people.

RonAuger

06-03-04, 05:17 PM

dr_mal,
Can't PM you -- your mailbox is full.

Mgibsoj

06-03-04, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by mrvideo

As an outsider, I can't figure out what is wrong with those people.

You know, I wouldn't wish them on anyone, anywhere. Especially the place where I began my wonderful years of marriage. We'll keep them busy here... but thanks anyway!

mknoebel

06-03-04, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by mrvideo
As an outsider, I can't figure out what is wrong with those people.

As someone who lives here, but is unable to receive an OTA signal, your statement sums it up perfectly mrvideo.
:mad:

I'm having people over to my "Canadian home" for the Stanley Cups finals tonight, just like I did for much of the playoffs, the Super Bowl, etc. When they ask me how they can get a picture like that, and I mention Scare and the whole situation, their response is just like yours...

dr_mal

06-03-04, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by mknoebel
I'm having people over to my "Canadian home" for the Stanley Cups finals tonight
That's odd -- I don't remember getting an invite :confused:

My Canadian home only has SD -- but since KMGH doesn't want me as a viewer, I guess I'll be watching the game up there.

mrvideo

06-03-04, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by mknoebel
I'm having people over to my "Canadian home" for the Stanley Cups finals tonight, just like I did for much of the playoffs, the Super Bowl, etc. When they ask me how they can get a picture like that, and I mention Scare and the whole situation, their response is just like yours...

I'm a little confused, if you can't get an OTA, are you getting the HD on cable?

Personally I don't watch sports.

mknoebel

06-03-04, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
That's odd -- I don't remember getting an invite :confused:

Oddly enough, I don't remember sending out ANY invites! I got a call about noon today from some friends who said that they caught a boatload of walleyes and wanted to watch some hockey. So we're going to have a walley fry and watch the finals! How could I say no??
;)

Now if only I could figure out a way to link up my HDTivo in my Canadian Home... I wonder if some hacker is working on that as we speak??

dr_mal

06-03-04, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by mrvideo
I'm a little confused, if you can't get an OTA, are you getting the HD on cable?

Personally I don't watch sports.
Some people have a summer home ;) in Canada where they've installed Bell ExpressVu service -- BEV offers 2(?) feeds of ABC-HD.

Due to budget constraints, my summer home doesn't yet have BEV's HD receiver.

dr_mal

06-03-04, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by mknoebel
Now if only I could figure out a way to link up my HDTivo in my Canadian Home... I wonder if some hacker is working on that as we speak??
I don't think that's going to be possible. Best we can hope for is a Canadian version of the 921.

mknoebel

06-03-04, 05:37 PM

mrvideo,

check your PMs!

mknoebel

06-03-04, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
I don't think that's going to be possible. Best we can hope for is a Canadian version of the 921.

Yeah, I think your right. But I can hope! Because I'm pretty sure the wife is going to put her foot down on another HD toy!
;)

mrvideo

06-03-04, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by dr_mal
Some people have a summer home ;) in Canada where they've installed Bell ExpressVu service -- BEV offers 2(?) feeds of ABC-HD.

Due to budget constraints, my summer home doesn't yet have BEV's HD receiver.

Brain cells weren't working. I've heard about border crossing. It works both ways. I've heard about Canadians who have winter homes in the U.S. :-)

mrvideo

06-03-04, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by mknoebel
Yeah, I think your right. But I can hope! Because I'm pretty sure the wife is going to put her foot down on another HD toy!
;)

Don't have that problem. The dog doesn't care what I buy.

I don't have pizza-pan stuff at my house. I have a couple of BUDs with analog and commercial 4:2:2 DVB/DCII+ receivers to feed into DVCAM/S-VHS and D-VHS decks. The D-VHS deck also fed by the OTA receiver.

JMartinko

06-03-04, 11:51 PM

Three cheers for Calgary tonight, as they are the location of my own "Canadian" home. Watched ABC HD and flipped to the CBC for Don Cherry et. al. during the breaks. What a great game!:p For the life of me, I just can't see why hockey doesn't draw well on TV. This game and the finals are soooooooo much better than anything the NBA can throw at us. In the NBA we get Shack Daddy's elbows, in the NHL, everyone has elbows, and they know how to use them too.

Won't be at the projector show myself, I will be out of town visiting family in Canon City. Couldn't afford a new one anyway, I just dropped a major bundle this week on a new sound system for the HT and it will be a while before I am looking for video stuff again. (Well, OK, to be more correct, it will be a while before I can spend more money on it, I am always looking!) Yin and Yang is necessary in life, Audio balances the Video. It was audio's turn this year. Enjoy the showing guys. As for any complaints???, my 17 year old son has NEVER EVER complained about the HT, his only hope is that he gets it all in my will.

As for what motivates the (S)CARE folks, its easy to understand what drives them, it's an American tradition.....GREED!

mrvideo said "Personally I don't watch sports."
Shame on you, don't you know god invented HD for hockey fans to finally enjoy hockey on TV. Why else (other than football) would we need HD in the first place?????
:D

mrvideo

06-04-04, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by JMartinko
Why else (other than football) would we need HD in the first place?????
:D

Real scripted television shows! (And I don't mean comedies :-)

Over the many years, sports overruns have ruined, or at least messed up, the programs that followed, or were supposed to follow. I'm sorry, but sports is near the top of my hate list.

JMartinko

06-04-04, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by mrvideo
.............Over the many years, sports overruns have ruined, or at least messed up, the programs that followed, or were supposed to follow. ...............

Hey, wait a minute, what about the Jets/Raiders game getting interrupted for Hedi? What goes around comes around. This is just simply 'payback'. "Yin and Yang"!
:cool:

mrvideo

06-04-04, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by JMartinko
Hey, wait a minute, what about the Jets/Raiders game getting interrupted for Hedi? What goes around comes around. This is just simply 'payback'. "Yin and Yang"!
:cool:

You failed to note that was the first and LAST time that has ever happened again.

That is part of my hatred for sports, i.e., it takes priority over everything else.

Look what heppened recently with the hockey player decking the opponent. Hockey is more violent than boxing. The player that decked the other player should have been charged with assult and thrown in jail. Do that on the street and you will be thrown in jail. Do that under the umbrella of sports and everyone turns their heads the other way.

And guess what, tonight's hockey game went into overtime. Went to tune in the news and all I got was hockey. :-( Nightline is very late tonight because of that game. If it weren't for my BUD, I'd be watching Nightline a half-hour even later (stupid local ABC affiliate airs Seinfield after the news).

BTW, the only good part about Monday Night Football is listening to what goes on in the booth during commercial breaks. Al Michaels sure like asking for a lot of food and drink.

We now return you to your regular programming, unless it is being interrupted by sports overruns.

dr_mal

06-05-04, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by mrvideo
Look what heppened recently with the hockey player decking the opponent. Hockey is more violent than boxing. The player that decked the other player should have been charged with assult and thrown in jail. Do that on the street and you will be thrown in jail. Do that under the umbrella of sports and everyone turns their heads the other way.
Oh, you do not want to go there :mad:

(taking 5 minutes to cool off)

mrvideo

06-06-04, 12:53 AM

As previously noted, a new tower is going up in Madison. After watching the Harry Potter movie today, I noticed that the crew was out there working (didn't see any work done on Friday). I went back home and grabbed my digital camera and went out and took some pictures.

You'll find the images here:

http://vidiot.com/TVTower.html

For those of you who know, how tall are the sections? They look to be about 15 feet, based upon the size of the jockeys working on the tower.

The first shot is a view from the parking lot of where I work. I hope to get some photos when the antennas are lifted on top of the tower. With my luck, I'll be working and miss it. As the time gets near, I think I'll call the chief engineer of the station paying for the tower and ask about when the sticks will be lifted to the top.

mrvideo

06-06-04, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by mrvideo
For those of you who know, how tall are the sections? They look to be about 15 feet, based upon the size of the jockeys working on the tower.

There are new images up. They were working on Sunday, so I went closer to the construction site. I talked with the foreman and got a few pieces of info, specifically; the sections are 20', with the sections near the bottom being 26' (I think there are six, as I forgot to count); there are six jockeys up in the tower.

mrvideo

06-07-04, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by mrvideo
ABC, CBS, UPN and The WB are using QPSK 4:2:0 that is receivable via the IT-910s receiver (which also does OTA reception). That box is less than $1k and falling. NBC is indeed using 4:2:2 8PSK. I think it is 8PSK. Even if they used QPSK, there isn't a receiver in the consumer price range that will give you component output. Fox isn't HD yet, but when they are, they will be 4:2:2 8PSK. None of them are encrypted, so if you got an IT-912s receiver, you'd have no problem watching the 4:2:0 QPSK feeds.

I need to correct some info. No one has done 4:2:2 HD over satellite. The current NBC 8PSK feed is 4:2:0. The upcoming Fox HD feed will be 8PSK 4:2:0 as well. When CBS was using the DCII Megapipe for HD delivery, it too was only 4:2:0.

While 4:2:2 is technically possible, I've been informed that no one makes the encoders.

While the IT912s can do 4:2:0 HD DVB reception, it can't do 8PSK.

DennisMileHi

06-07-04, 12:46 PM

Mr. Video:

I am probably not the only one who has no idea what you are talking about! Consider me among the uninformed.

mrvideo

06-07-04, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I am probably not the only one who has no idea what you are talking about! Consider me among the uninformed.

I'm assuming that you know the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 MPEG-2 video encoding. If not, in a nutshell suffice it to say the 4:2:2 is far superior to 4:2:0. It has to do with how the color information is sampled. The B&W portion of the video is sampled the same. DVDs and DTV use 4:2:0 color sampling because it takes less bits.

I'm guessing it is the QPSK/8PSK that has you baffled. Those are two of the three ways in which the digital video stream is modulated over satellite. 16QAM is the other method, which I haven't seen used yet. QPSK in a nutshell is a quad bit-rate scheme and works with most everyones dish farm, including home BUDheads. 8PSK, on the other hand, is a way to break up the data stream into 8 groups. It is less forgiving and requires tighter dish alignment and connectivity to reduce signal loss. The obvious advantage is that you can get lots more bits sent down the pipe. 16QAM is just not used for network feeds. Another factor in the number of bits being sent is the FEC (forward error correction ratio). A common value used is 3/4. If I understand it correctly, out of every four bits sent, three are data and one is for error correction. Fox will be going to 8/9, or where only one bit out of nine will be for error correction, so you'd better have a damn good S/N ratio or you'll start hearing and/or seeing problems. While you'd think that the difference between 3/4 and 8/9 isn't much, consider how many bits that is when millions are sent a second.

BTW, for OTA, the 8-VSB method is used here, though there are some that say the COFDM method is better and less prone to multipath. It is too late to change.

Me, I still believe that DTV should be via 12 MHz channels, not 6 MHz. There are just too many encoding artifacts because of the limited bandwidth.

oxothuk

06-07-04, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by mrvideo
Me, I still believe that DTV should be via 12 MHz channels, not 6 MHz. There are just too many encoding artifacts because of the limited bandwidth. Or maybe it should be VC-9/MPEG4 instead of MPEG-2.

Unfortunately, it's too late to fix the broadcast DTV standard. But that doesn't have to constrain cable, DBS, and HD-DVD.

Scooper

06-07-04, 03:39 PM

DBS is similarly constrained, and so is cable (at least when you think about the economics of that kind of switch out).

mrvideo

06-07-04, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by oxothuk
Or maybe it should be VC-9/MPEG4 instead of MPEG-2.

Unfortunately, it's too late to fix the broadcast DTV standard. But that doesn't have to constrain cable, DBS, and HD-DVD.

As pointed out in the above posting, it is too late for cable and DBS.

But, it isn't for HD-DVD. One of the competing standards is looking at having MPEG-4 as part of the standard, along with MPEG-2. Notice I said one of the competing standards. We just might have another Beta/VHS war on our hands Sigh!

santellavision

06-07-04, 04:26 PM

Why not one more war! I'm battling a war now in HD production. Half my clients are HDCAM (1080i/p)and the other are DVCProHD (720p). They are one format or the other. So are the editing houses. It's either or. Tough when you're a Pro shooter. I can't buy an HD camera 'cause it limits me to who I can shoot for. You make more money as an owner than having to rent different equipment for different clients.

oxothuk

06-07-04, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Scooper
DBS is similarly constrained, and so is cable (at least when you think about the economics of that kind of switch out). For a big-bang switchover, yes, the economics are impossible But new codecs could be brought online in concert with new services, like VOD or premium HD tiers.

squidboy

06-07-04, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by Scooper
DBS is similarly constrained, and so is cable (at least when you think about the economics of that kind of switch out).

Satellite operators are reportedly considering the switch to H.264, along with 8PSK, according to this article:

http://www.eetimes.com/sys/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=20800024

"Their goal is to boost the capacity of digital TV satellite transmission to offer not only more local channels but also local programming in High Definition."

EETimes also has bunch of similar articles if you do a search. Another example:

http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=18309407

"Serious interest from one mainstream satellite operator has set off a bidding war among suppliers of H.264-compliant silicon, several suppliers said."

I'm still hoping that we'll see local HD channels on satellites in the next 3 or 4 years.

mrvideo

06-07-04, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by santellavision
I can't buy an HD camera 'cause it limits me to who I can shoot for. You make more money as an owner than having to rent different equipment for different clients.

So, do you rent HDCAM or DVCProHD cameras, depending on the job? Where in the economic scale would it be cheaper to own one of each, than it is to keep renting? No one makes a camera that can do both?

I know there are DVCPro decks that can play DVCAM tapes, but don't remember if the same deck can record both. Head arrangements must get nasty for those situations.

kucharsk

06-08-04, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by mrvideo
No one makes a camera that can do both?

I know there are DVCPro decks that can play DVCAM tapes, but don't remember if the same deck can record both. Head arrangements must get nasty for those situations.
No, they're different (and proprietary) standards propogated by different companies (Panasonic for DVCPRO and Sony for HDCAM.) DVCPRO decks can play back but not record DVCAM tapes due to the inherent differences in the formats.

Cameras in the appropriate format start around $60K each, but rent for around $1200-$1500/day. Do the math. :D

mrvideo

06-08-04, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by kucharsk
No, they're different (and proprietary) standards propogated by different companies (Panasonic for DVCPRO and Sony for HDCAM.) DVCPRO decks can play back but not record DVCAM tapes due to the inherent differences in the formats.

Cameras in the appropriate format start around $60K each, but rent for around $1200-$1500/day. Do the math. :D

Sorry, I should have mentioned that I knew who the manufacturers are of the formats. A buddy an I looked at both formats and decided upon DVCAM, because of the most important feature, firewire. I have a couple of DSR-20 decks and he has a DSR-20 and a DSR-15.

That is why I asked about the economics of scale. At $1.5 a day, it will take just 40 days to pay for one. If a shoot lasts 5 days, it will just take 8 jobs to pay for it. Of course, get one of each format and it will take 80-100 days to pay for them.

I have no idea how many shoots you do and therefore no idea how long it would take to pay for them. I have to assume that you've already done the math to determine that the economics of scale don't work for you at this time.

I bring it up in case others were wondering.

santellavision

06-08-04, 09:41 AM

I've priced them. The cameras are actually much more than that. A Panasonic Vari-Cam 720p starts at $60K but that's just the body (no lens or viewfinder, monitor, mattebox, down-converter or any other accessories) So, you're talking $90K with everything. The Sony Cine-alta 24p is about $110 K. Add to that a nice HD monitor and waveform/vectorscope at about $20K.

And that's not including having insurance and maintance too. So, I were to divide up my shoots for each, it doesn't quite make sense yet. Yeah, if they were around $60K, I might buy one. My older Sony BetaSP camera was about $50K (10 yrs ago).

Jetlag

06-08-04, 10:37 AM

OT:
As a side note; I've been delaying getting a digital camcorder for years, still using my old Hi-8 analog dinosaur. JVC has a 'home' model out (GR-HD1US (http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027075&page=3)), but I'm hoping a couple of others will hit the market and make the price a bit more palatable. Looking forward to home movies shot at 720P on the 96" FP at home.

Couch Patato

06-08-04, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Jetlag
OT:
As a side note; I've been delaying getting a digital camcorder for years, still using my old Hi-8 analog dinosaur. JVC has a 'home' model out (GR-1?), but I'm hoping a couple of others will hit the market and make the price a bit more palatable. Looking forward to home movies shot at 720P on the 96" FP at home.

I've had a MiniDV Cam for 6 years now. Picture was Great on my Old 35" JVC. Now since owning a Grand Wega II for a year and a half. The Mini DV at 480I just does NOT cut it. It looks just a bad as SD Sat. Converted to DVD at 480P does not look any better. Now I CAN'T wait to get a HD-Cam. But another $3500 after the TV is just way too much money. I'll just have to wait till the prices drop.

RonAuger

06-08-04, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Jetlag
OT:
As a side note; I've been delaying getting a digital camcorder for years, still using my old Hi-8 analog dinosaur. JVC has a 'home' model out (GR-HD1US (http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027075&page=3)), but I'm hoping a couple of others will hit the market and make the price a bit more palatable. Looking forward to home movies shot at 720P on the 96" FP at home. Me too. Just bought an 8MP DSC that will do video at 640x480 to tide me over for a few years until more competition appears in the consumer HD DV arena.

mrvideo

06-08-04, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by RonAuger
Me too. Just bought an 8MP DSC that will do video at 640x480 to tide me over for a few years until more competition appears in the consumer HD DV arena.

If you don't mind me asking, which DSC camera did you get? The only Sony DSC camera that I know of that is 8MP is the DSC-F828, which is hard to come by, but did find a place that had some at a very decent price.

I've had a mini DV camcorder for a few years now. With my Sony DVCAM decks, I'm able to firewire the tapes into the computer without having to connect the camcorder.

RonAuger

06-08-04, 09:15 PM

That's what I bought - the F828. Love it.

And since I have a Sony Card (http://www.firstusa.com/cgi-bin/webcgi/webserve.cgi?partner_dir_name=sony_1500_ch01&page=cont&mkid=6BMW) with lots of points on it (I use it for business travel too), the camera was free!

mrvideo

06-08-04, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by RonAuger
That's what I bought - the F828. Love it.

And since I have a Sony Card with lots of points on it (I use it for business travel too), the camera was free!

You make me sick :D

I currently own the DSC-F707, which I why I'm sticking with the series.

Greg T

06-08-04, 11:28 PM

So interesting to see how much the great cams cost. I bought a GR-HD1 off of ebay for $1,800 shipped back in April. I absolutely love it. It has it's shortcomings (30P), but after you've learned to work around those shortcomings the results are incredible. I've got about 2.5 hours of HD footage so far. Butterfly Pavaillion, The Zoo I've got it all, and most of it looks incredible.

santellavision

06-10-04, 12:42 PM

So... nothing to talk about?

JackinThornton

06-10-04, 12:49 PM

I noticed E* now has TNT-HD (channel 9420) allthough haven't seen any HD content on it. Angel looked like it was stretched.

mrvideo

06-10-04, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by JackinThornton
I noticed E* now has TNT-HD (channel 9420) allthough haven't seen any HD content on it. Angel looked like it was stretched.

Which season of Angel? Only the last 1-2 years were mastered in HD.

mrdobolina

06-10-04, 02:35 PM

Hello All!

I am a total newbie to HDTV, although I have been reading posts in these Denver threads because of my interest in upgrading to HDTV. I am moving to Arvada(from Boulder), and I just purchased a HDTV for my new house. I have been a DirecTv subscriber for years, and I am planning to upgrade to a HDTV DirecTv receiver w/OTA capabilities.

It is obvious that there are many issues with OTA reception of HDTV signals in Denver. It seems like Arvada is kind of hit or miss on getting signals from the low power downtown towers. Can anyone inform me if I will need an outdoor, rooftop antenna? Or will I be able to work with rabbit ears inside my house? (I have looked at the reception maps on the Denver DTV page, but I can't tell what kind of antenna's people are using)

Also, is there a DirecTv thread that will tell me about receiving the "distant" network feeds? I thought I heard that CBS-E and CBS-W is available on D*, but I was wondering if you have to go through the whole "waiver" process, or if it is just made available so CBS and DirecTv can say they have more people viewing HDTV. (I did a search, and the closest topic thread was about the new D* satellite)

Thanks everyone!

(I typically lurk/chat in the "Ultimate TV DVR" forum)

oxothuk

06-10-04, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by mrdobolina
Hello All!

I am a total newbie to HDTV, although I have been reading posts in these Denver threads because of my interest in upgrading to HDTV. I am moving to Arvada(from Boulder), and I just purchased a HDTV for my new house. I have been a DirecTv subscriber for years, and I am planning to upgrade to a HDTV It all depends on location, but you should have an excellent chance of getting all the Denver HD stations from Arvada. Except for KMGH(ABC) - a sore subject for most of us.

Edit: Depending on how far west you are, you also may not be able to get KBDI. But they aren't broadcasting any high-definition yet.

santellavision

06-10-04, 02:54 PM

mrdobolina,

Check this thread. It has lots of info (especially the links)

www.denverdtv.info

dr_mal

06-10-04, 03:37 PM

Welcome mrdobolina!

If you're used to your UltimateTV and being able to timeshift, you should look into the HD DirecTiVo (DirecTV model HR10-250).

A roof-mounted antenna will give you the best results. It's easy enough to play with rabbit ears inside, but I wouldn't count on getting anything other than Fox and maybe WB that way.

Distant networks: Denver is eligible to get CBS-HD from LA via D*. Most people who put an antenna on their roof can get our local CBS-HD without any compression, so unless you have a strong desire to watch shows a couple hours later than they air (and don't get a TiVo) it's pointless IMHO. You'll probably need to get a waiver from the CBS station in Cheyenne. Denver will also be eligible to get Fox-HD from LA when D* starts that service. Again, I think it's a waste of effort. I can get Fox with rabbit ears up here in Brighton.

There was another thread here called something like "Denver reception" where people were posting their equipment and signal strengths. Haven't seen a posting to it in a while, but it may have some useful info in it for you.

santellavision

06-10-04, 04:21 PM

There was another thread here called something like "Denver reception" It's on the links page at denverdtv.info

DennisMileHi

06-10-04, 04:42 PM

Since we have a new person here, I posted new results on the Reception Thread using my new HD Tivo.

mrdobolina

06-10-04, 10:53 PM

Thanks everyone for your help. I already had denverdtvinfo.com as one of my favorites. I am definitely trying to do my legwork before I move into the house, so I know what to expect.

Mostly I am wanting to be ready for NFL games.

Thanks again!

skyview

06-11-04, 09:18 AM

WB2 back to a funky format last night, thought they had returned to the full screen hdtv format, WB2 if your reading this, please change back.... to be honest, I wont watch WB2 in the format that was on last night.

KWGN-DT

06-11-04, 02:21 PM

Skyview,

What show are you refering to? We have not changed formats since we switched back to 16x9 from 14x9. It may be related to a certain show and we could check that here.

Thanks

Dave Martinez
KWGN-TV
2-1,2-2

skyview

06-11-04, 02:53 PM

Thanks for your prompt response... It was either side of 7pm, cant remember which, but either the show that ended at 7pm, or began at 7pm, and was notable because of its different size! Commercials were also filling the smaller area, so not just the show.

I appreciate your caring about viewers enough to read the forum and reply, speaks highly of your organization!

santellavision

06-12-04, 06:24 PM

Are you all sitting down? (well of course your are)
I just received the latest "City & Mountain Views" rag. This is un-freakin' beliveable. I'm still ROTFLMAO.

And I quote... "If terrorism struck the Denver metro area, digital TV signals will interfere with Homeland Security."

If you thought they were insane before, now their absolutely certifiable! What's next? I'm sure it's that digital TV signals will open a crack in the earth and all of life as we know it, will be destroyed. Or, aliens will be attracted to just our digital signals and they will destroy the earth.

mrvideo

06-12-04, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by santellavision
I just received the latest "City & Mountain New" rag.

For the uninitiated, what is the "City & Mountain New" rag?

Geof

06-13-04, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by santellavision
Are you all sitting down? (well of course your are)
I just received the latest "City & Mountain New" rag. This is un-freakin' beliveable. I'm still ROTFLMAO.

And I quote... "If terrorism struck the Denver metro area, digital TV signals will interfere with Homeland Security."

If you thought they were insane before, now their absolutely certifiable! What's next? I'm sure it's that digital TV signals will open a crack in the earth and all of life as we know it, will be destroyed. Or, aliens will be attracted to just our digital signals and they will destroy the earth. Since they specifically mentioned Denver I can only assume digital TV signal will NOT interfere with home security anywhere else in the country.

It's just this type of thing that is so whacky, so out in left field, that one has to doubt their credibility. Let's give them more rope, they're hanging themselves.

santellavision

06-13-04, 09:45 AM

The City and Mountain Views (sorry for the typo) is a radical, NIMBY newsletter that we get up here on Lookout mountain. They don't have the latest 'Terrorist Conspiracy Therory' story on the their website yet, but the other stuff is pretty funny too.

http://www.colorado-citymtnviews.com/AntennaMainPage.php4

JMartinko

06-14-04, 11:44 AM

This whole situation is just one giant surreal joke! The claims made by the (S)CARE group over the years just keep getting more and more bizarre and of course more desperate. Remember, this is the same group that was out selling aluminum foil and window screens to people to 'seal and protect' their homes from the 'deadly' RF radiation from the towers. This new homeland security angle is just another revelation of what we already know. (S)CARE has no concern for the facts or for that matter, even for the health and safety of the people in the area of Lookout. Their only motivation is apparently the money to be made from the potential increase in property values, and they are obvioulsy willing to stoop to any level ethical or not, to 'scare' the residents into supporting their cause. I don't mind debating 'facts' with people, but when the (S)CARE folks debate, the 'facts' don't even seem to be of concern to them. Next thing you know we will hear that the movie "The Day After Tomorrow" is really a movie about what will happen when the DTV transition is completed. It really is no wonder I get ill even thinking about the situation these days. It really should be obvious to all of the newbies here in this thread why we started using the name (S)CARE for their organization.