Originally posted by wabisabi
Please remember that City & Mountain Views is not an official CARE newsletter.

The opinions of the editor do not (necessarily) reflect those of CARE.

Just wanted to make sure that people do not confuse these two entities.

-Wabisabi Point taken but, no matter the source, between them and (S)CARE, recipients are receiving a bunch of mis-information.

As jm pointed out it's one thing to discuss and make arguments based on fact and another altogether to try and alter reality (or the perception of reality) to make their points. This latest crap is just another variation of going into a theater and yelling fire. Regardless I guess they're spinning up the propaganda machine in preparation for the August hearing(s) and re-vote.

I have added more photos regarding the new tower being built in Madison, including a photo of the six jockeys that work the tower. They appear to love the work and certainly love the view.

http://vidiot.com/tvtower.html

About 1020' done, about 11 20' sections to go.

Originally posted by wabisabi
Please remember that City & Mountain Views is not an official CARE newsletter.

The opinions of the editor do not (necessarily) reflect those of CARE.

Just wanted to make sure that people do not confuse these two entities.

-Wabisabi
Who cares? Both groups are a bunch of clueless NIMBYs who shouldn't have bought below antennas that were there long before most if not all of their homes were.

Who cares? Both groups are a bunch of clueless NIMBYs

who will not hesitate to use (s)care tactics. Geof's analogy of yelling fire in the theater is right on. City and Mountain views might as well be the official (s)care newsletter.

On a related note, has there been any 30 day public posting of information needed for the July hearings?

sorry to change the subject. I might be moving soon to Raleigh, NC soon. I'm selling a laserdisc player with 75 discs for $200.

CLD-3080 dual side play
Star Wars Trilogy
True Lies
Aliens Box set
The Abyss Box Set
and on and on.



Sorry if this isn't the place.

Is KDVR-DT (FOX) off the air?

I don't watch a lot of Fox so maybe this has been going on for a while, but over the last couple of days I haven't been able to get any kind of signal from them on either of my tuners. The other channels I normally receive have been fine.

Michael

I just flipped over after reading your post, and I'm receiving KDVR with a good signal strength.

Thanks. It must be the leaves on the trees. Interesting that I have no problems picking up KWGN-DT. When is KDVR going to broadcast full power?

Michael

Originally posted by zanaberry
Thanks. It must be the leaves on the trees. Interesting that I have no problems picking up KWGN-DT. When is KDVR going to broadcast full power?

Michael
No, the bigger question is when any Denver station is going to be able to broadcast full power, and that answer may very well be never depending on how things go in the courts with the NIMBYs at (S)CARE...

Originally posted by wabisabi
Please remember that City & Mountain Views is not an official CARE newsletter. The opinions of the editor do not (necessarily) reflect those of CARE. Just wanted to make sure that <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=people&v=56">people</a> do not confuse these two entities. -Wabisabi

Sorry Wabisabi, I have to completely disagree! They work very closely together on anything relating to brainwashing the minds of the Lookout area residents.

I found it very interesting on the C&MV that they have the story of the CSU/UW RF study (Remember that? It should be completed by the end of this year) There´s such a nice friendly picture of Ms. Carney, the CSU professor conducting the study, and some of her cronies. I bet they all had drinks, a nice expensive dinner together, and then they sat down to discuss how to skew the results.

Anyone here have a copy of those "before and after" pictures of Lookout LCG had on their old website? Since I'm working near the Taj these days, I was hoping to see the "after" picture from that angle, but they aren't on the new LCG site.

Thanks for any info.

Greg

Originally posted by santellavision
Sorry Wabisabi, I have to completely disagree! They work very closely together on anything relating to brainwashing the minds of the Lookout area residents.

I found it very interesting on the C&MV that they have the story of the CSU/UW RF study (Remember that? It should be completed by the end of this year) There´s such a nice friendly picture of Ms. Carney, the CSU professor conducting the study, and some of her cronies. I bet they all had drinks, a nice expensive dinner together, and then they sat down to discuss how to skew the results.

Just curious, who is funding this study and who is over-seeing the methods/measurements and the compilation of data into results? I can't help but wonder what they are using as a 'control' group, since all the residents are exposed to various forms of other contimanants (smoke, thinner air, UV, radon (both airborne and water supply), air pollutants from forest fires, etc.). Maybe they are just bombarding mice in a laboratory - but that, in itself, is inconclusive because the unrealistic amounts that are used to exagerate the situation (like they did with artificial sweeteners). The government's safety guidelines were established by the National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) on the maximum levels of exposure to RF radiation emitted from mobile phones, base stations and other sources (“the NRPB guidelines"). These guidelines were established in 1993. The guidelines were based on a comprehensive review of the scientific literature carried out by NRPB, a statutory body, which advises Government on radiological issues related to health. How does this local study compete with those findings? Are we not in the same country? I would highly suspect that the levels for the LCG tower, if used on mice for a couple of years, would have no effect since they are only a fraction of the safety limit. But, it really wouldn't matter because the sensitivity to humans can be quite different than the sensitivity to mice, even differing between different humans. (I see another study coming for several more years on that one!). I very much doubt that they have isolated a group of humans from all other sources of exposure for years. This whole thing is just so out of proportion it boggles the mind. I'm most surprised that they get so much mileage out of their snake oil. Anywhere else in the country would have had a good laugh and let it go.

Edit: Actually, this could end up being a double-edged sword. If SCARE comes out with a Denver Metro RF safety standard (vs. Government's guidelines), how would they make cell phones comply? Or would they just ban their use?

Just curious, who is funding this study and who is over-seeing the methods/measurements and the compilation of data into results? The Department of Environmental Health researchers at Colorado State University have received a grant from the National Institutes of Health.

Who knows, but maybe someone could check to see if any sCARE members are on the board of the NIofH.

Thanks for the info santellavision - doing a search of other studies they have done regarding radiation (power line and cell phone) demonstrate that they have yielded inconclusive results - but with a possible beneficial link to power lines and bone healing. If anyone finds anything different, please correct me. These grants seem to be vehicle for funneling gov't funding into universities and scientific studies experience for the students more than something expected to have definitive results, let alone provide new "safety" level recommendations. But, to be fair, I believe any restriction on tower radiation that is already below Government's guidelines should equally be applied to cell phones (which are also suspect of radiation hazard, anyway). They both represent an indistinguishable radiation source. And, we know this is all about safety (right?). The sCARE website lists the results of this study to be in two years from now, so it would appear to be more in the line of continuing delay tactics and scare tactics than substantive. (Just my opinion, of course!).

So in what century will Hell star freezing over so we can have full power HDTV signals on the Front Range??

Dan

It's looking like the end of 2005, beginning of 2006. But with weather during that time period, it might be Spring of 2006.

Originally posted by santellavision
It's looking like the end of 2005, beginning of 2006. But with weather during that time period, it might be Spring of 2006. *Assuming that JeffCo passes the zoning request a second time.

This may be the most likely outcome but it is by no means guaranteed. It'll be mid-August before we know if this circle jerk starts all over.

Originally posted by Geof
*Assuming that JeffCo passes the zoning request a second time.

This may be the most likely outcome but it is by no means guaranteed. It'll be mid-August before we know if this circle jerk starts all over. And even assuming approval, we still have to wait for the inevitable sCARE appeal to go back through their favorite judge.

Man, I may have to push back my 1/11/06 estimation for the go-live pool :(

Originally posted by santellavision
It's looking like the end of 2005, beginning of 2006. But with weather during that time period, it might be Spring of 2006.
I wish I could share your "optimism"!
:rolleyes:

John,

I don't know if it's that optimistic? It is dependant on things going well for LCG. I was basing my guess on the Aug hearings passing, real construction starting in Nov. Taking a year and a half, being completed in the Spring of '06.

As we all have witnessed... we never know what sleazy games sCARE might still have waiting. I just hope they don't get really desperate after losing. And get destructive and sabotage equipment. Like those nuts who set fire to the Mt. Ski lodges because of the Lyncs. I wouldn't put that past them.

Anyone else having trouble with D34 (KWGN) tonight?

Worked fine when I watched the news this morning, and except for the occassional audio subchannel issue, it's worked fine for me for as long as they've been on the air. But for some reason, tonight any attempt to tune it in causes my HTPC to reboot (MyHD tuner card). All the other channels work fine. It'll even reboot the PC when the tuner software gets to D34 during the auto channel scan.

I'm still getting a strong signal tonight. I wasn't watching all night - just flipped over to check it out after your post. But the Cosby Show is showing up on 2-1.

KWGN DT was unwatchable for me last evening. Pixelating and lots of sound dropouts. Signal strength was more than adequate to get the job done so it must have been something else causing the problem.

Sorry about the problems last night. We had problems with our encoder which caused pixelation and audio dropouts for a period of approximately 40-45 minutes. Once again the new technology is proving unreliable and we have had issues with the manufacturer. This will be resolved in the future.

Thanks!!

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV
2-0,2-1,2-2

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Sorry about the problems last night. We had problems with our encoder which caused pixelation and audio dropouts for a period of approximately 40-45 minutes. Once again the new technology is proving unreliable and we have had issues with the manufacturer. This will be resolved in the future.

Thanks!!

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV
2-0,2-1,2-2 Thanks for the info Dave. Good to know my HD TiVo hasn't gone wacky.

Originally posted by santellavision
I don't know if it's that optimistic? It is dependant on things going well for LCG. I was basing my guess on the Aug hearings passing, real construction starting in Nov. Taking a year and a half, being completed in the Spring of '06.

I guessing that the tower construction isn't going to take 1.5 years, but that the new building will. As can be seen by the pictures that I have documenting the new tower going up in our area, it only takes about .5 years to get a new 1250' tower up and running.

But, why would a transmitter building take that long to build and get running? That just seems long to me. I must be missing something.

At least you currently have The WB in HD, even at low power. We might not see that network in HD around here until after 2005 :mad:

Knowing (S)CARE, I suspect that even if the LCG tower gets approved they will want architectural approval over the look of the transmitter buildings to make sure they don't "reduce property values." :eek:

Originally posted by mrvideo
I guessing that the tower construction isn't going to take 1.5 years, but that the new building will. As can be seen by the pictures that I have documenting the new tower going up in our area, it only takes about .5 years to get a new 1250' tower up and running.

But, why would a transmitter building take that long to build and get running? That just seems long to me. I must be missing something.

At least you currently have The WB in HD, even at low power. We might not see that network in HD around here until after 2005 :mad: Keep in mind that we've heard dates before only to see them come and go. For instance, KMGH's attorney told the FCC (in their rebuttal letter to our mass mailing campaign) that HD was "right around the corner" and that was over a year ago. Also keep in mind we have to contend with with pit bulls going for the jugular (ie, sCARE) at every turn. I cannot speak for everyone here but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of us felt like this won't be over until the Supremes in DC rule in favor of LCG. In other words they are already embroiled in one lawsuit and when that is over it's either back to square one or possibly on to the next appeal. Finally keep in mind that we heard a 1 to 1.5 year estimate form our PBS station and that too was almost a year ago and I don't think they are close to being ready to move to their new facilities. In short I think we're all cynics when it comes to dates and we'll all believe it when we see it (again, I'm not trying to speak for everyone so I might be wrong).

Originally posted by mrvideo

But, why would a transmitter building take that long to build and get running? That just seems long to me. I must be missing something.


The LCG plan calls for about 1/3 of the transmitter building at the base of the tower to be buried in the mountain to avoid it being an 'eyesore' for the surrounding residents. That means a LOT of blasting and digging on the side of a steep hill, and of course, it means every time they blast the local residents will be 'up in arms' about safety etc. and trying to slow down or stop the next blast. This WILL be a long construction project to say the least.

You can view some of the plans and get a sense for what will be built at the following:

Lake Cedar Group Plan (http://www.lakecedarproject.com/)
Under the Lookout Mountain link go to the Approval Document Page and download the file.

I know it's not HD, but anyone else notice KWHD's digital signal has been very sporadic over the last week or so?

Sounds like they too are having equipment issues...

Due to upconverter failure, we will only be able to broadcast our HD programming tonight. We hope to have the upconverter replaced tomorrow at the earliest.

Thanks!!

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV

Dave,
Thanks for the heads-up and timely info. I tried tuning in and had no luck then saw your post.

Dave,

Are you still only broadcasting at around 14 Megabits/sec or have you guys pumped your HD signal up to its very necessary 19.3 Megabits/sec rate for optimal picture quality? It doesn't make sense to broadcast HD and then hamper it.

MPEG-2, being an older, inefficient codec needs all the bit allocation it can get or you get artifacts galore.

Dan

Dan, last time I looked, KWGN was broadcasting right around 18.0 Mb/s, according to what my hipix cards are seeing. Nobody in Denver does 19.3 - KCNC sends 19.2, KUSA sends 19.0, KRMA sends around 18.0 usually, although they fluctuate a little bit from time to time, KMGH sends 12.3 I think (been awhile since I looked), and I believe KDVR is now sending around 14.0 to 14.5.

Originally posted by markdl
Dan, last time I looked, KWGN was broadcasting right around 18.0 Mb/s, according to what my hipix cards are seeing. Does that include Audio or is that the Video bit rate?

I believe that is the video bit rate, but the hipix doesn't tell me for sure.

Our replacement upconverter is in route from Canada and will arrive Saturday morning. Unfortunately the only programming will, once again, be our Prime Time HD broadcast.

BTW for those interested, our bitstream breaks down like this:

18.419 usable
17.553 video
.393 audio
.393 audio
.08 PSIP
1.03 Null packets

19.449 Total

This is measured data from 0ff-Air with bars and tone


Dave Martinez
KWGN-TV
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor

Thanks for the info Dave.

I noticed my screen was black during Reba (see how quickly I can pick up on these things, to notice my whole black screen:D). I thought that was HD. Should I have seen something?

Thanks, Greg

Originally posted by gkanders
I noticed my screen was black during Reba (see how quickly I can pick up on these things, to notice my whole black screen:D). I thought that was HD. Should I have seen something?

Now, if only the WB affiliate in San Francisco would send out their video at this rate. They are only doing 14 MB.

In any event, to answer your question, starting this month, The WB upconverts non-HD programming. They didn't use to. So, there should have been something there, be it in HD or non-HD during The WB's network feed.

About half of the time that I get a KWGN signal strong enough for a lock, I've been locking onto a color test pattern with KWGN-DT Channel 34 across it. Is this part of KWGN's current problem?

OTA DTV Channel 31-1, Fox local news continues to have "washed-out" video on their live studio shots. The pan shots of Ron and whomever each night are gross on my Sammy HLN507W via an OTA tuner in a DISH811 receiver.

Their news video clips look great and everything else on the newscast, even remote live, looks very good. I've tried changing the receiver's HD receiving resolution to see if it would help. No change! This is the only OTA station where local news is of poorer PQ than that available via E* local channel DBS. All the others are a big improvement over E* local channels. Anybody know what's up here?

Any of the engineers here know what KIPS means, as pertaining to tower construction?

http://vidiot.com/images/TVTower/DSC02127.jpg

Originally posted by mrvideo
Any of the engineers here know what KIPS means, as pertaining to tower construction?

http://vidiot.com/images/TVTower/DSC02127.jpg

If I remember right, it means Kilo-Pounds, e.g. 1000 pounds.

Originally posted by squidboy
If I remember right, it means Kilo-Pounds, e.g. 1000 pounds.

Thanks.

KBDI-DT, Channels 12-1, 12-2, & 12-3, for the past week, a strong signal, 90% or better, but no lock on any of them. Anyone else seeing this? Anybody know what is going on?

Not seeing them either

I am also not receiving channels 12-1,12-2,12-3.

Unfortunately our replacement upconverter enroute from Canada was held up in Customs and did not arrive on Saturday as expected. We hope it will reach us today but Customs has the final say.

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV

Our replacement upconverter arrived and is installed. KWGN 2-1 and 2-2 is back on the air. Thanks for your patience!!

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV
2-1,2-2,2-0

Thanks Dave, both for the repairs and for keeping involved in the forum and the updates!

Originally posted by x1hdtv
I am also not receiving channels 12-1,12-2,12-3.

Thought I'd drop an email to KBDI (in hopes of this being related to adding HD capability), but my mention of HD went unanswered. There are some upgrades in process, but issues (including interference) have come up. They are hoping to have the problems identified soon and resolved around July 5th.

When I last checked (when I was last at home!), 12-x was still in my guide with nothing on it. I found KBDI-DT at 38-x, even though PSIP was turned on and working for other networks.

All,

Well it happened again! Our ASI encoder failed this morning and has rendered our HD broadcast totally off. The vendor has assured me that a replacement will arrive tomorrow morning so we will be back on at that time.

Sorry, once again, for the inconvenience!!

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV

Dave,

Is there something better out there than the ASI encoder?

The encoder is a necessary part of the HD stream. There are a few manufacturers out there but because the industry is going more toward a computer-based industry, many companies feel they know what broadcast is all about. Not true, as they build more and more inferior products. How many times has each of us had to reboot our personal computers? This has become our reality in the broadcast business and we are now at the mercy of it. The end result is more down-time and unhappy viewers. Something we absolutely cannot afford to have. We can only hope our viewers exhibit patience as ours runs thin......

Thanks!


Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV

Hi Guys from Johannesburg South Africa!!!!

Just letting you know, there's no HD here yet. Well, I guess they do have me and my camera. ;)

Off to Australia next week. I'll report from there. (I think they do have HD)

I see 12-n is back a week ahead of schedule, complete with their bright, larger-than-life itself logos on 12-2 and 12-3.

EDIT: June 30 and the only logos remaining on 12-2 and 12-3 are the ones put there by PBS (no need for logos on both sides of the screen - especially when they are as big, bright, and opaque as those monsters!). Glad to see the local additions gone (hopefully for good)! Now, if only there was HD and the subcarriers were turned off during HD...

July 1 and the big, bright logos are back, but not all the time. There should be some sort of regulation about logos - size, brightess, transparency, etc. Oh well, my daughter can watch PBS Kids from D*, so no need for 12-2 for me.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
The encoder is a necessary part of the HD stream. There are a few manufacturers out there but because the industry is going more toward a computer-based industry, many companies feel they know what broadcast is all about. Not true, as they build more and more inferior products. How many times has each of us had to reboot our personal computers? This has become our reality in the broadcast business and we are now at the mercy of it. The end result is more down-time and unhappy viewers. Something we absolutely cannot afford to have. We can only hope our viewers exhibit patience as ours runs thin......

Thanks!


Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV
We may not be the most patient bunch of people you'll ever meet, but our patience grows by leaps and bounds when we're kept in the loop. Thanks again for your continual efforts in keeping us updated! It's greatly appreciated!

What he said, a big DITTO!

Our replacement encoder has arrived and has been installed.
We are back on the air in HD!!

Thanks!!

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV
2-0,2-1,2-2

Dave - your messages are highly appreciated around here! Thank you very much for them.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
How many times has each of us had to reboot our personal computers?

Maybe, just maybe, if these companies had not fallen into the Bill Gates Windblows camp mentality, and thought along the lines of a real opeating system, i.e., Unix (Sun Solaris or Linux, for example), maybe things would be better.

Right now, the company I work for uses Sun Solaris (I use Linux for my home web server), but the company is leaning toward a project that uses Windbloze. We were assimulated. When we were part of a smaller company, things were much better. The day we convert completely to Windbloze is the day I am out-of-there, and my boss knows it.

Sorry that you are having so much trouble with your equipment.

Does anybody have a good local source for Dual RG6 cable?

I have to rewire my DirecTivos, due to all the rain this week, getting into some of the connecters I had spliced together switching from Dish to DirecTV last fall.

I need to run about 120 feet x 4 or 240 feet of the dual RG6.

Thanks.

I noticed yesterday that KBDI is having problems again. 12-1 comes in fine with about a 90% signal strength, but 12-3 doesn't have a picture dispite a similar signal strength. I hope these problems are the result of upgrading and not de-grading.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
I f you read Judge Jackson order (page 17 lines 10-20) it appears that the new hearing will be very specific in nature. The testimony will address the information in "Tab 2" of LCG's report and the issue of guy wires hitting houses if they fail.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/pdfs/JudgeJacksonOrder051704.pdf

The subjects of the documents in "Tab 2" are:


Equipment space requirements
Arguments about Squaw Mountain zoning
Arguments about Squaw's DTV test
FCC spacing for KCNC
Indoor reception Squaw vs. Lookout
Adjacent channel interference
Population projections for DTV coverage
Equipment building space allocations
RF emissions study
RF levels at schools in Jeffco and Aurora
Guy cable size
Face area calculations for tower
Info on underground storage tanks


looks like the contents of "Tab 2" cover many subjects.

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi
The subjects of the documents in "Tab 2" are:


Guy cable size


looks like the contents of "Tab 2" cover many subjects.

How can anyone complain about guy wire size? The laws of physics determine the size of said cable. If any of the sCARE people complain and say the cables must be thinner, then they can be told that the cable will be designed to smash into that person's house when it breaks, because it will. They can also pay for the tower when it collapses.

An example of guy wire specs can be seen at the following page:

http://vidiot.com/TVTower_06.html

Image TS-3

BTW, lots of neat photos and info there. You should look at image 219 and the comment I made.

So much for "very specific".
I would venture to say that this list of subjects covered all the main points of contention in 2 years of hearings and testimony. Will the BCC really allow a rehash of every subject on this list? What an immense waste of time and taxpayer money to split hairs about facts that have not changed since the decision by the BCC was reached a year ago.

Definitely sounds like the hearing(s) are going to cover just about every single point that was covered to death and then some last year.

Pool time - how many different sessions are going to be required this time around? My money's on 2 evenings (5-10) and one complete day (9am-10pm), with all of the same people testifying for both sides again. All the same videos being watched again. All of the same "experts" going on and on and on again...

On another front, I hear that ISF calibrationist Greg Lowenn is going to be in town at end of this month, if anyone's interested.

Originally posted by mrvideo
How can anyone complain about guy wire size? The laws of physics determine the size of said cable. If any of the sCARE people complain and say the cables must be thinner, then they can be told that the cable will be designed to smash into that person's house when it breaks, because it will. They can also pay for the tower when it collapses.

An example of guy wire specs can be seen at the following page:

http://vidiot.com/TVTower_06.html

Image TS-3

BTW, lots of neat photos and info there. You should look at image 219 and the comment I made.

The documents in "Tab 2" are not from CARE, they are from LCG, so the guy wire size document is not an argument by CARE that the guys are too big. (Although I am sure they will argue that they are)

I looked at the link, and in particular on page 6, the "misc tower info" section, picture TS-1. It shows guy wires of up to 1 7/8 inches for a 1,200 foot tower.

LCG is using guy wires up to 3 1/2 inches for their 700 foot tall tower. I think LCG said at the hearings that the guy wires are over-sized to ensure a more controlled crash, should that occur.

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi
The documents in "Tab 2" are not from CARE, they are from LCG, so the guy wire size document is not an argument by CARE that the guys are too big. (Although I am sure they will argue that they are)

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that they were. Since guy wires are listed in the tab and the fact that sCARE is complaining about everything, I was wondering how they could possibly complain about guy wires (thinking that they probably woould, since it is back on the table).

I looked at the link, and in particular on page 6, the "misc tower info" section, picture TS-1. It shows guy wires of up to 1 7/8 inches for a 1,200 foot tower.

LCG is using guy wires up to 3 1/2 inches for their 700 foot tall tower. I think LCG said at the hearings that the guy wires are over-sized to ensure a more controlled crash, should that occur.

Damn, your 700' tower guy wire, at the length needed for that height, will probably weigh as much, if not more, that the longest guy wire on the 1248 tower. Which, BTW, is about 1300 pounds.

The bigger guy wires were in direct response to sCARE complaints that the tower might collapse. So the LCG oversized the guy wires to try to address one of sCARE's concerns.

Originally posted by dr_mal
The bigger guy wires were in direct response to sCARE complaints that the tower might collapse. So the LCG oversized the guy wires to try to address one of sCARE's concerns.

Did anyone from LCG say (during the hearings) that the guy wires that would have been used would have snapped if the tower collapsed? I found it hard to believe that the original size would have broken too easy.

Since I do not have a plot of the land where they want to put the tower, but at 700 feet, what house could it possibly hit, if there were no guy wires and it were able to fall over in one piece?

We all know that when towers collapse, they do just that, they collapse. The guy wires help pull the tower down. The guy wires certainly keep the tower from falling over.

I'm confused as to how sCARE can be so scared about the tower collapsing.

I'd worry more about a tornado coming through and destroying their property.

Originally posted by mrvideo
Damn, your 700' tower guy wire, at the length needed for that height, will probably weigh as much, if not more, that the longest guy wire on the 1248 tower. Which, BTW, is about 1300 pounds.

It probably weighs more. Due to the slope of the ground, the longest guy wire on the LCG tower will be just over 1,000 feet long, compared to 1,365 for your tower.

-Wabisabi

Question for the WB affiliate engineers...

It seems that Monday and Tuesday, of this week, there was something wrong with the NY5 data stream. I didn't discover it until Tuesday night when a person in another forum posted the problem he was having. I would have discovered it on my own because I would have tuned in NY5 to get the "clean" feed of Summerland.

It seems that the PCR PID was set to the same value of the Video PID. NY4 was working without a problem (which is obviously your normal SD feed). I never dumped the values from my two receivers (I just didn't think to do it). On one receiver, I was getting broken video and no audio 99.99% of the time. On the other receiver I got video and audio, but the lipsync was about .5 seconds off. When I power cycled that receiver, it was about .1-.2 seconds off.

Tonight everything was back to normal, i.e., the PCR PID was returned to the previous value.

Unfortunately there is a heated debate between a couple of us on another forum, whereby I say that there was something wrong with the DVB stream and he is saying that there wasn't and that my equipment was wrong and to adjust it (hard to adjust commercial DVB receivers :-)

What I was wonder is if it was possible for someone to call the CVC engineers and ask if there was something wrong with the SD encoder and if so, what it was?

I realize that this is a long shot, but if one doesn't ask, one can't get.

If you can do this great. An e-mail/private message response would probably be best, in order not to bore the readers with the answer. The readers are probably already bored with the question :-)

Thanks in advance.

Hi Guys!
Well as I continue my world tour, we just finished shooting in South Africa and I got some of the most amazing footage ever! We went to the Planesburg Park and shot for two days.

I got incredible shots of Zebras, White Rhinos, Lions, Hippos and more. There's nothing like being so close as to get a full screen face of Male lion in HD!

I'm now in Perth, Australia! Two of the local stations are broadcasting in HD. Not a lot of programming though. Off to shoot Caterpillar tractors in a Gold mine tomorrow.

Hey Ernie! I would love some souvenirs from Australia. If you happen to look around and see some shiny yellow rocks lying about while you are shooting tomorrow, could you pick them up and send them to me?

Thanks!

Followup to WB engineering...

It has been reported in the other forum that the problem occurred because the normal encoder was pulled for maintenance and a standby was used. I'm guessing that no one noticed that the PCR PID was set to the same value at the NY5 video PID, though I am told that it should not make a difference. For some of us it obviously did. I know, we don't count because we are not the intended audience to receive the feeds.

When the standby encoder is used again, it would be nice if the PCR PID for NY5 was not set to the same value as the NY5 video PID to see if there was something else that caused the problem.

Sorry for a slightly off-topic post, but since there are lots of good folks here, I'm hoping someone can help. Anybody around the Metro Area have an NEC CRT projector? I have mine calibrated at about 75-80% right now, but still having a few keystone/pincushion issues. The picture is certainly viewable, but it's hard to pull myself away from a movie or two to work the calibration more. I don't have any screen shots right now, as I want to work on it a bit more.

But if there is anyone in the area that would be willing to help a CRT/NEC newbie, I'd try and make it worth your while. I don't think I'm ready yet for a full ISF calibration, especially since I have only had the PJ for about a month and still running a loaner line doubler until the new Lumagen scalers are released. I'd like to get in the 85-90% range and live with that for a while before spending $$ on ISF'ing the machine. Timing is pretty open, but I'll be taking a short vacation in mid-July to show off our new baby to the grandparents. Certainly open to help later in July. Thanks much!!

Originally posted by markdl
On another front, I hear that ISF calibrationist Greg Lowenn is going to be in town at end of this month, if anyone's interested.
So how much does an ISF calibration for a CRT run these days?

That's another good question. I don't know for sure, as it seems the couple of ISF folks around are out on vacation, but I would hope it is under $400 or so. If anyone does know, or have a contact who does the calibrations, I'd be interested in that info.

Rob

This guy has a great rep for Mits calibrations. He charges $750 and usually takes about 7 - 8 hours!
http://www.mghometheater.com/

I hosted the ISF Calibrator God, Michael TLV (Chen) about 2 years ago. I don't think even he charged that much. He was more in the $450-550 range.

A cost of $450-550 isn't bad, and I bet there would be a couple people around who might be willing to split travel expenses. I'll certainly have to keep that in mind. I've got new tubes in mine now, so I want to let them break in a bit before going the calibration route. Some interesting possibilites for sure.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
This guy has a great rep for Mits calibrations. He charges $750 and usually takes about 7 - 8 hours!
http://www.mghometheater.com/

I'm having my Mits 65819 Craigibrated next Sunday!

He was out last year to calibrate my set, but said the 480i and 480p setup was already pretty good so it wouldn't be worth calibrating it until I had HDTV. You have to respect someone who won't charge for their work if they don't think it will benifit the customer.

TiVo alert - next Sunday (7/18) at 1:30 pm, KWGN-DT will have Raiders Of The Lost Ark in HD. I caught the last 40 minutes of so of it tonight and the picture quality was outstanding. Fortunately, tonight was only the first of the 2 allowed airings under the Paramount HDOne agreement.

This story line bears watching. Altitude Sports and Entertainment (Kroenke) has received a cable only carriage offer from Comcast to telecast the Avs, Nuggets, Mammoth and Rapids. Those of us on D* and E* could be left out. I can't believe the * providers will allow this to happen or that AS & E would consider it but anything can Happen.
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~2266661,00.html

It'd be interesting to see what the economics of the deal look like. The deal with AS&E would make sense for the Denver Comcast MSO, but it might not make sense for the satellite companies to use bandwidth for a smaller market (even with spotbeams) when they could use it for channels with national appeal (or more HD!).

Still, I won't switch to Comcast until there is a cablecard TiVo that can record all their SD and HD channels in digital.

As one of those folks who was stuck for years in Philly where Comcast has the exclusive cable only deal for the Flyers, Sixers, and even the Phils, all I can say is this really stinks. Not only is the sports channel not available on satellite, but you also will get blacked out on NHL Center Ice and other out of market sources for Avs on satellite. Just what I (and many here needed), another monthly bill to watch TV. Of course Comcast will never sell you "just" a sports channel without a basic package too. The article didn't mention it, but I believe the negotiator for Comcast is the same guy that worked the deal in Philly, as I recall his name was Mr. Ben Dover. :mad:

I guess if the Av's and Nuggets are only on cable I won't get to watch them as I refuse to put in cable. Too bad as I am a huge Av's fan, but I guess I am a bigger anti-cable person.

Is there anyone that we can contact about this situation with AS&E?

Thanks
Joe

In an earlier post concerning Satellite and Denver being a "Small Market", at 450,000 subscribers to 680,000 Comcast subs, Denver's Satellite penetration must be one of the highest in the country! I am certain that Denver is a very important market to both E* and D*. I am curious what the market penetration of cable VS. satellite is for Philly.

I wonder what kind of potential ad losses AS&E will experience if they lose 40% of their potential viewers. As I understand it, Satellite subscribers are coveted by ad agencies.

Finally, I feel that this might be a "strategic" leak to generate outrage from the community to help AS&E gain contracts with Comcast, D* and E* at favorable terms for AS&E.

My $.02

Matt

Originally posted by MattF
In an earlier post concerning Satellite and Denver being a "Small Market", at 450,000 subscribers to 680,000 Comcast subs, Denver's Satellite penetration must be one of the highest in the country! I am certain that Denver is a very important market to both E* and D*. I am curious what the market penetration of cable VS. satellite is for Philly.

I wonder what kind of potential ad losses AS&E will experience if they lose 40% of their potential viewers. As I understand it, Satellite subscribers are coveted by ad agencies.

Finally, I feel that this might be a "strategic" leak to generate outrage from the community to help AS&E gain contracts with Comcast, D* and E* at favorable terms for AS&E.

My $.02

Matt
I don't know the numbers from Philly, but I will bet the penetration is low. Comcast Sports out there started as a local pay tear movie/sports network called "Prism". in the early '80's Prism had the rights nearly all home games of the three teams, and filled the rest of the schedule with commercial free movies similar to HBO (often the same movies since they were only a local channel) which was just getting started. I subscribed to Prism on cable in those days as satellite wasn't an option. Originally, since it was a pay channel, Prism even broadcast the sports events commercial free which was really nice. Eventually they figured out they could put a few commercials in during time outs and the rest, as they say, is history. I eventually got a TVRO dish to watch the Denver channels while there, and that was how I found out about the blackouts. Fortunately in those early days, most of the sports events and backhauls were in the clear, so it was rarely an issue for me, since I mostly watched the Flyers games and with Canadian sats etc. in the clear I still saw most Flyer games.

Eventually Comcast bought out Prism and that is when they really clamped down on blackouts etc. locally, and it was a MAJOR issue with early dbs users in Philly. No matter how much they complained, it still never changed. Now, Comcast does all of the Flyers and Sixers games (not sure about the Phillies) in HD, and they still are never put on satellite even for backhauls. Those of you with NHL Center Ice know, they rarely use the Philly Comcast feed for games unless the opposing team is not televising the game. I would guess among sports fans in Philly the satellite penetration is near zero. I think there are only a couple of games a year from any of the teams televised OTA. I would bet nearly anyone in Philly with a dbs dish is NOT a sports fan. Having dealt with that issue back there for years, I really hate the thought of it happening here. If Comcast does get the buy-in, they may even do games in HD, but I will bet you will NEVER see that feed on satellite in any Sports package. It will be blacked out just like the issue with HDNet and the Avs games last year.

Just the thought this might happen makes me ill. I have feelings about cable similar to others, and yet I am so hooked on hockey it would kill me not to have access to Avs games. Although I am not a dish subscriber, the fact this might happen in Charlie's back yard might be the only thing to save us. I sure am getting sick of all this exclusivity though. D* for Sunday Ticket and NHL Center Ice, Comcast for Avs and Nuggs games, a Canadian address for the CBC Hockey Night In Canada, and my 12 foot TVRO for backhauls. Maybe I should just hit my head against the wall until all those sports fan cells are dead and then I could be satisfied to live without it all. Anyone want my Avs, Broncos and CU tickets??? (For the record, that is a joke, so don't bother with the PM's, at least not yet).

I wasn't trying to say that Denver is insignificant, just that there might be a constraint on bandwidth that would force a satellite company to choose between carrying the AS&E channel or some channel with national interest. I'm really curious about the financial model that a provider would use to make the decision. I guess it's an intellectual exercise of sorts. What would the AS&E channel fees look like on sat?

PPV?
Premium?
Part of the sports pak?
Part of locals?

If you just make it part of locals for $5/mo, I doubt there would be much incremental income (from new subs that switched to sat or added locals because of AS&E). Clearly AS&E isn't going to do an exclusive with a sat company so why would people switch from cable to sat for AS&E? It might remove a barrier to switching, but it wouldn't incent people to switch as the programming will be the same.

Subs might leave sat to go to cable for AS&E if that was the only way they could get it, but how many people is that? Say you lose 1,000 subs in Denver because of AS&E. Could you use that bandwidth to offer programming that would convince more than 1,000 people across the country to sign up for sat?

How does YES channel work? Is that cable only? Is it available outside of the NY area?

Mr. Video,

The PCR for each programming service should be the same as the video PID.

The PCR is the Program Clock Reference and is used to sync the video buffer.

back to lurking..

William

I can't see Altitude going Comcast-only. I really can't. Satellite may have a low national penetration, but like the article said, there are almost as many sat customers in Denver as cable. My concern is more whether D* will carry a potential Altitude-HD if Kroenke decides to produce games in HD.

Then again, if I didn't live here, I'd find it hard to believe any of the top 30 markets in this country didn't have full power OTA HDTV :(

What are the chances that AS&E will offer OTA in any case? Pretty slim I bet.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
What are the chances that AS&E will offer OTA in any case? Pretty slim I bet.

Pretty slim I bet.
Actually I think that is optimistic. The real odds are more like 'slim' and 'none'. This will be a special tier pay channel on any system. There is virtually no chance it would be OTA unless some means were provided to scramble the feed and make it only available to subscribers with a decoder box. Considering the cost and complexity of that, it would only make sense to let cable and/or satellite provide it since they already have the equipment and boxes.

Interesting tidbit regarding Denver and Madison towers.

The person (sorry, forgot is name, I'm lousy with names) who is paying the bills for the $3mil tower in Madison (part of the 10 station group, which has Jamie Keller (sp?) on its board) was at the site yesterday afternoon and we talked for a little bit.

It seems that they used to own a station in the Denver area. I do not remember the details with perfect memory, so bare that in mind. It seems they spent $1mil on the lookout tower in lawyer fees. They were going to put up the 1000 foot tower, pay for the in mountain building, move the FMs to the tower, etc., all the things that have been mentioned here. The sCARE folks basically caused them to sell out of the area. Enough was enough. I'm sure some of you can add flesh to this next statement, in that the developer who bought the land near the towers probably should never have been allowed to develop there. He obviously did not care, as he was out to make a killing and did. Unsuspecting people spent big money on property and homes, only to find out that sometimes their computers, etc. didn't work. Now they are going after any new tower construction. Sue the developer and whomever allowed the houses to be built in the first place. In any event, they left Denver because of the problems.

In his opinion, the FCC will never step in and force the site to be built. Why? Because of the other location that is available on the other mountain. Because there is another site, the FCC will not step in. Obviously the stations do not like the other location, as it only gives them coverage for their primary area; Denver. That would result in smaller ad fees, making it extremely expensive to live there. Lookout is best for market coverage.

While it appeared that the Madison tower was a breeze, it seems that it wasn't. The city of Madison does not want towers built. I have no idea why. This one is only getting built because they played the FCC will cause it to happen anyway card. The tower that is currently there is 45 years old and will not allow a digital antenna to be installed so that the station can meet their full power digital requirement. Playing the card obviously worked, since the tower is being built. But, try and put in a new tower and it will get shot down. The only reason for a new tower here would be to put up a real UPN affiliate, which we currently do not have.

Lastly, there is a candelabra tower that was built a few years ago that contains the analog and digital antennas for ABC, CBS, FOX and PBS. It is also at 110% capacity, so nothing else can go on it. That isn't the problem. It seems that the Wisconson tax payers will be paying for a mistake by the agriculture department. They approved the original placement of the tower. A year ago they gave warning that the broadcasters have 5 years to move it. There is now a road that is supposed to go through that area, that they either didn't know about or just plain screwed up about. It is supposed to move 5 miles further south. He didn't have an exact area. What pisses me off is that the state screws up and I have to pay for it. No wonder we can't get money for the schools, because we are paying for crappy mistakes like this.

An interesting conversation.

Hm. Gannett still owns KUSA, KCNC is still O&O by CBS, and KMGH is still owned by McGraw Hill. So that leaves KTVD as the only possible LCG station which could've been sold recently. Interesting if true.

The houses that are in the immediate vicinity of the proposed tower are pretty old -- it's not like the hillside was all developed and built up or anything. There's even one house that has been occupied by the same people since before the towers. One house (that I'm aware of). Some other houses/properties may predate all (or most) of the towers, but were bought by the current owners post-towers. A lot of the opposition to the towers was from people who've bought either new places not in the immediate vicinity of the proposed tower, or older places where the towers were clearly visible pre-sale.

On my drive into work today, I was listening to a local sports talk channel and they had a representative from AS&E on. He has stated that "contrary to newspaper reports, Altitude Sports has no exclusive contract with Comcast." To the contrary, we should expect their first carrier announcement to happen next week and it will be a satellite provider.

Any guesses as to whom it will be? My money is on E*, after all, Charlie lives here and wouldn't want to miss a single AVS/NUGS game.

Originally posted by MattF
On my drive into work today, I was listening to a local sports talk channel and they had a representative from AS&E on. He has stated that "contrary to newspaper reports, Altitude Sports has no exclusive contract with Comcast." To the contrary, we should expect their first carrier announcement to happen next week and it will be a satellite provider.

Any guesses as to whom it will be? My money is on E*, after all, Charlie lives here and wouldn't want to miss a single AVS/NUGS game.

That is refreshing news for sure. I would bet on E* being the first to sign as well although you never know. Was there any mention of HD????

Originally posted by dr_mal
Hm. Gannett still owns KUSA, KCNC is still O&O by CBS, and KMGH is still owned by McGraw Hill. So that leaves KTVD as th e only possible LCG station which could've beensold recently. Interesting if true.

Unfortunately I do not remember the call letters. He did state them.

The houses that are in the immediate vicinity of the proposed tower are pretty old -- it's not like the hillside was all developed and built up or anything. There's even one house that has been occupied by the same people since before the towers. One house (that I'm aware of). Some other houses/properties may predate all (or most) of the towers, but were bought by the current owners post-towers. A lot of the opposition to the towers was from people who've bought either new places not in the immediate vicinity of the proposed tower, or older places where the towers were clearly visible pre-sale.

Then I wonder which development he was talking about. If I find out more, I'll post.

Originally posted by JMartinko
That is refreshing news for sure. I would bet on E* being the first to sign as well although you never know. Was there any mention of HD????

No mention of HD. Sorry.

Originally posted by William Smith
The PCR for each programming service should be the same as the video PID.

Then explain why the following have the PCR and Video PIDs set differently?

The PCR is the Program Clock Reference and is used to sync the video buffer.

Here is the info for the Warner Bros. feeds:

Prog | PMT PCR Components | Srvc

# | PID Fnd | PID | V A U P | Desc Name Prov

1 0x0100 Y 0x0084 1 2 0 N Y WB/ATL NY 4

2 0x0101 Y 0x0085 1 2 0 N Y WB/ATL NY 5

===== Service 1 Information =====

Service Name : WB/ATL NY 4

Service Provider: NULL

PMT PID: 0x0100 -- Corresponding section found.

PCR PID: 0x0084

PGCA message stream not associated with this service.

--- VIDEO ---

[ 0] PID: 0x0204

- video_stream_descriptor() present.

MPEG-1 Only : Profile/Level=0x85

--- AUDIO ---

[ 0] PID: 0x0284

- audio_stream_descriptor() present.

Layer=0x02

- ISO639_descriptor() present.

Audio type=0x00 Language code=eng

[ 1] PID: 0x028E

- audio_stream_descriptor() present.

Layer=0x02

- ISO639_descriptor() present.

Audio type=0x00 Language code=eng

--- USER DATA ---

None.

===== Service 2 Information =====

Service Name : WB/ATL NY 5

Service Provider: NULL

PMT PID: 0x0101 -- Corresponding section found.

PCR PID: 0x0085

PGCA message stream not associated with this service.

--- VIDEO ---

[ 0] PID: 0x0205

- video_stream_descriptor() present.

MPEG-1 Only : Profile/Level=0x85

--- AUDIO ---

[ 0] PID: 0x0285

- audio_stream_descriptor() present.

Layer=0x02

- ISO639_descriptor() present.

Audio type=0x00 Language code=eng

[ 1] PID: 0x0299

- audio_stream_descriptor() present.

Layer=0x02

- ISO639_descriptor() present.

Audio type=0x00 Language code=eng

--- USER DATA ---

None.

[The NBC services on their c-Band W4 backup]

Prog | PMT PCR Components | Srvc

# | PID Fnd | PID | V A U P | Desc Name Prov

65534 0x1100 N 0xFFFF 0 0 0 N N

1 0x0100 Y 0x1FFE 1 2 0 N N

2 0x0101 Y 0x1FFE 1 2 0 N N

3 0x0102 Y 0x1FFE 1 2 0 N N

9 0x0108 Y 0x1FFE 1 2 0 N N

10 0x0109 Y 0x1FFE 1 2 0 N N

11 0x010A Y 0x1FFE 1 2 0 N N

12 0x010B Y 0x1FFE 1 2 0 N N

7 0x0106 Y 0x1FFE 1 2 0 N N

15 0x0105 Y 0x1FFE 1 2 0 N N

===== Service 9 Information =====

Service name and provider information not available.

PMT PID: 0x0108 -- Corresponding section found.

PCR PID: 0x1FFE

PGCA message stream not associated with this service.

--- VIDEO ---

[ 0] PID: 0x0205

- video_stream_descriptor() present.

MPEG-1 Only : Profile/Level=0x48

--- AUDIO ---

[ 0] PID: 0x028F

- audio_stream_descriptor() present.

Layer=0x02

- ISO639_descriptor() present.

Audio type=0x00 Language code=eng

[ 1] PID: 0x0299

- audio_stream_descriptor() present.

Layer=0x02

- ISO639_descriptor() present.

Audio type=0x00 Language code=eng

--- USER DATA ---

None.

Originally posted by mrvideo
Then explain why the following have the PCR and Video PIDs set differently?

[B]

Here is the info for the Warner Bros. feeds:

Prog | PMT PCR Components | Srvc

# | PID Fnd | PID | V A U P | Desc Name Prov

1 0x0100 Y 0x0084 1 2 0 N Y WB/ATL NY 4

2 0x0101 Y 0x0085 1 2 0 N Y WB/ATL NY 5

===== Service 1 Information =====

Service Name : WB/ATL NY 4

Service Provider: NULL

..................................etc. ...........etc.........etc........
SO639_descriptor() present.

Audio type=0x00 Language code=eng

--- USER DATA ---

None.

mrvideo
Not sure why we need that half page post in the Denver thread??? Maybe you could start another thread in programming area with that discussion of the PCR and PIDS etc, we get sidetracked enough here without ever solving solving our tower problems. Most people here only have access to what we see OTA (which is minimal) and can't change what is provided to us that way even if we want to. You might expect better feedback on the topic in an open thread on the subject.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Not sure why we need that half page post in the Denver thread???

I responded to the question. It is hard to repond to a question here in a different forum.

Besides, the tower build-out is kinda on hold until the hearings start again. :)

The only problem is you were responding to another post which really didn't belong here either.

Perhaps a PM may have been more appropriate.

Back to our local HD topic ...

Did anyone watch the "Ocean Wilds: Killer Whales" on KRMA-DT last night? There were many shots of huge schools of herring that seemed to make MPEG-2 cringe (or, I guess that was me that was cringing). The artifacts/mosquito noise/macro blocking or whatever you want to call it was very noticeable. I thought the "Sperm Whale" episode looked great (probably because there wasn't any herring!). I'll have to catch them again and look closer.

Mark, is KRMA-DT still at around 18.0Mbs according to your Hipix?

If anyone is interested, Debbie Kerley of KRMA sent out this email of the HD shows in July (I editted in the Soundstage artists):
7/14 7:00pm A Thief of Time: American Mystery!
10:00pm A Thief of Time: American Mystery!

7/15 6:00pm Out of the Ashes
8:00pm Soundstage # 1105 (Alanis Morissette)
9:00pm Out of the Ashes
11:00pm Soundstage # 1105 (Alanis Morissette)

7/16 8:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
11:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales

7/17 No HD Programs

7/18 8:00pm American Family # 201
11:00pm American Family # 201

7/19 8:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
11:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales

7/21 8:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
11:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales

7/22 6:00pm Ireland: Roads Taken w/ Tommy Makem
8:00pm Soundstage # 1106 (Lisa Marie Presley & Peter Wolf)
9:00pm Ireland: Roads Taken w/ Tommy Makem
11:00pm Soundstage # 1106 (Lisa Marie Presley & Peter Wolf)

7/23 8:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
11:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales

7/24 6:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
8:00pm Ocean Wilds # 102 Sperm Whales
9:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
11:00pm Ocean Wilds # 102 Sperm Whales

7/25 8:00pm American Family # 202
11:00pm American Family # 202

7/26 No HD programs

7/27 No HD programs

7/28 8:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
11:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales

7/29 6:00pm Ireland: The Roads w/ Tommy Makem
7:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
8:00pm Soundstage # 1004 (Michael McDonald, Ashford and Simpson, featuring Doobie Brothers, tom Johnston and Patrick Simmons)
9:00pm Ireland: The Roads w/ Tommy Makem
10:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
11:00pm Soundstage # 1004 (Michael McDonald, Ashford and Simpson, featuring Doobie Brothers, tom Johnston and Patrick Simmons)

7/30 7:00pm Ocean Wilds # 102 Sperm Whales
10:00pm Ocean Wilds # 102 Sperm Whales

7/31 8:00pm Ocean Wilds # 101 Killer Whales
Also KBDI-DT lists Soundstage #1103 (Sheryl Crow Pt.2) in HD at 8PM tonight. Can anyone recall if KBDI-DT has passed any HD yet, since the PBS demo loop way back when?

Sorry, I was responding to correct the information.

I sent him a PM with references to his question.

Sorry if this has been covered but I haven't checked in for a while. Does KDVR-31 have the ability to pass HD yet? Tonight's All-Star game is in HD right? Any chance of seeing it that way in the Mile High City?
Thanks,
Jason

KDVR has installed the splicer, so they're ready whenever Fox corporate is ready. From what I've read in the HDTV Programming Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=413735), Fox corporate is not ready to send HD yet.

Besides, it's only baseball :). How long until hockey starts up again? (WHA or NHL -- I'll take either next year)

Originally posted by dr_mal

Besides, it's only baseball :). How long until hockey starts up again? (WHA or NHL -- I'll take either next year)
AFAIK World Cup Starts in late August, that and DU hockey (yes, my alma mater is the National Champs---Go DU) may be the only hockey we see this year.

Not sure what Fox is doing tonight. According to one thread, the game will be broadcast in HD by fiber to the Houston Fox affiliate, but last time I looked (this morning) there was no indication of any national feed. As you correctly stated though, its 'only baseball'.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Also KBDI-DT lists Soundstage #1103 (Sheryl Crow Pt.2) in HD at 8PM tonight. Can anyone recall if KBDI-DT has passed any HD yet, since the PBS demo loop way back when?

Tonight's Soundstage on 12-1 is still SD. No HD from them to date. Since their email to me months ago stated they were in the process of obtaining the HD equipment, I believe their demo loop was likely a PC streaming the video.

Yeah .. I see .. Sheryl Crow in SD on KBDI-DT.
Too bad that can't pass HD yet -- it would help the people that can't get KRMA-DT.

Ron - I'll try to check my hipix readings tonight and report back.

Ah, damn...forgot about this. Maybe tonight... :)

... Denver has top-ranked sports fans (results probably affected by Martinko ;) )
Cities with Passionate Sports Fans? DirecTV Knows

DirecTV and the Center for Sports Psychology think they know which city and its sports fans got game.

The satellite TV provider said Denver may have the most passionate sports fans, followed by Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia and New York. DirecTV said it came to that conclusion after analyzing sporting event attendance and sales of its sports subscriptions as well as surveying sports reporters and sports fans nationwide.

The findings are in the first-ever Sports Fan Passion Index, a ranking of the most passionate sports fan markets. The index is a joint effort between the Center for Sports Psychology, a Philadelphia-based network of professionals that work with athletes, coaches, parents and fans nationwide, and the satellite TV company.

The index, which also ranks "sports sales" for DirecTV and other factors, can be found at: http://www.directv.com/sportspassion .And I thought those New Yorkers at the Yanks/Mets game at Yankee stadium I went to two weeks ago were passionate!

Originally posted by RonAuger
... Denver has top-ranked sports fans (results probably affected by Martinko ;) )And I thought those New Yorkers at the Yanks/Mets game at Yankee stadium I went to two weeks ago were passionate!

Alright DirecTV, you've just slit your own throats with this survey. We want our AS&E!!!! In HD, with DD 5.1 and at 19Mbps!! And while your at it, every Bronco, AV, Nugget, Crush, Mammoth, Rapids CU and CSU game in HD too. You can keep the Rockies until they get better (how about 2015 for them).

-Matt

Originally posted by RonAuger
... Denver has top-ranked sports fans (results probably affected by Martinko ;) )
...........
So I guess D* should indeed get the message, AESN had darn well better be on their sports channels this fall. And if they want to see passion, just see what happens if the games are in HD locally on Comcast, an D* is not in HD.

BTW, since you have recognized that I am really the one responsible all of your thanks can be sent to my home address in the form of a MAJOR financial contribution. In return you will receive honorary membership in my fan club. I will start working on coffee cups with my name on it, something nice in a wax coated white paper I think would look great. (Hey, it works for PBS, why not me? We both provide you with a service, right?). Just PM me for the address, I will accept Visa and Master Card, and especially cash. :D

Actually, after someone posted the number of sat subs in the area, it would seem illogical for AESN to limit itself to cable. I just hope they also see the importance of HD on satellite in their future.

Ron -

My hipix is reporting the following broadcast rates for the Denver channels:

KWGN - 15.990 Mb/s
KCNC - 19.000 Mb/s
KRMA - 17.500 Mb/s (HD), 6.000 Mb/s (SD)
KMGH (7.1) - 12.752 Mb/s
KMGH (7.2) - 4.513 Mb/s
KUSA - 18.992 <b/s
KDVR - 14.940 Mb/s

Thanks for the report, Mark. I knew there was another reason why I didn't care that I can't receive KMGH-DT.

That same Killer Whales show is on KRMA-DT tonght at 8PM MDT. See if anyone else sees the macro-blocking in the school of herring (during the 2nd half of the show, I think). I thought it was really obvious -- on an 8.5' wide screen.

Thanks from me as well Mark. Even though I'm about 1 mile (LOS) from the KMGH transmitter and have a huge UHF antenna, their picture has always been the worst. I usually get about an 85% signal strenth from them and yet still experience bad artifacting, motion blurring, etc as a result of their pathetically low bitrate.

In this regard, some kudos to KCNC and KUSA for at least sending the full signal (OK, you can attack me now for saying that!)

Originally posted by markdl
KDVR - 14.940 Mb/s
I'd expect KDVR's bitrate to go up once Fox corporate starts sending out a broadcast-ready 720p HDTV signal. AFAIK, that signal should be right around the 19mbps rate.

As Jetlag said, my thanks to KCNC and KUSA for using the full bandwidth available. While KWGN's picture is usually very good, it suffers from macroblocking too often.

KWGN was sending at 18.000Mb/s there for awhile. Not sure when they dialed it back to the current 15.990. KUSA used to be at 19.200 early on. Those are the only two that have changed.

Tonight on KUSA when I was switching channels during For Love or Money I noticed they had different commercials on the HD and analog channels.

HD had a Soundtrack HDTV ad. Analog had a 9news promo. This was the first time I have noticed this. Did anybond else catch it?

I have seen the Soundtrack commercials, but never switched to the analog channel to see what was on at that time. Your observation only makes sense (if it's the commercial where the girl says "I see you're watching HDTV..."), since that wouldn't mean much for the people watching analog TV to see it.

I just read about some new legislation that was introduced in Congress last week that would allow satellite companies to deliver HDTV signals from major networks if HDTV is not available in full-power in that market. I got the following blurb from www.iwantmyhdtv.com (http://www.iwantmyhdtv.com/iwanthdtv/wrapper.jsp?PID=5080-40)

Legislative Update:

On July 13, Senator John Ensign (R-NV) introduced S.2644, the Satellite Home Viewer Extension and Rural Consumer Access to Digital Television Act of 2004 which allows consumers to receive an HDTV feed of ABC, NBC, CBS, and FOX via satellite when not available from their local broadcasters.

The Ensign bill is a significant step forward in responding to the needs of consumers and ensuring that digital television will be more widely available. The bill will bring consumers more choices and greater access to digital television. It will also motivate broadcasters to move more quickly to achieve the goal of returning the analog spectrum to the taxpayers.

Take action and send a letter to Congress to show your support for the Ensign bill.

_

Yeah, it's the re-auth of SHVIA and there's a thread for it McCain wants Network HD available by satellite (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=422658)

On KUSA this morning they mentioned that Altitude Sports and Entertainment is being picked up by Echostar. They said that the announcement was expected to be made later in the day.

Here is the link from the Denver Post. It will be a nonexclusive agreement so there is still hope for cable and D* subscribers.
Now all we need is the annoucement for 100% HD broadcasts for the local sports teams and we in the Denver metro are can begin to crawl out of our HD deprived caves!

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~2286491,00.html

We had to adjust to a lower bit rate on our current loaner encoder because the encoder could not handle a higher bit rate for some reason. Our encoder has been repaired and is expected back tomorrow morning. Hopefully we can get back to 17 or 18 meg.

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV
2-0,2-1

Great news, Dave! Thanks again for keeping us in the loop.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
Here is the link from the Denver Post. It will be a nonexclusive agreement so there is still hope for cable and D* subscribers.
Now all we need is the annoucement for 100% HD broadcasts for the local sports teams and we in the Denver metro are can begin to crawl out of our HD deprived caves!

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~2286491,00.html
In other news today, DirecTV has announced they are in negotiations with Altitude and are expected to debut Altitude Sports in 2007.

(tongue firmly in cheek)

Any news on the Mt. Morrison tower? Although sCARE is appealing the District Court decision upholding the Jefferson County Commissioners, there is no injunction or ruling against them, so I would think that they would be anxious to get construction underway.

I would sure like to be able to get KRMA-DT.

Mark

Mark,

Hate to be bearer of bad news, but I drive by there everyday and I haven't seen any construction on the hill yet. They are working on the road up to the site though. Not good. And even worse is that KRMA is planning on only re-installing their Low-power X-mitter up there when they get the antenna finished. So, I wouldn't look for KRMA-HD in FC in the near future.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
.........
Now all we need is the annoucement for 100% HD broadcasts for the local sports teams and we in the Denver metro are can begin to crawl out of our HD deprived caves!

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~2286491,00.html

Don't count on the HD feeds being available from a satellite carrier just yet. As we have discussed earlier, the models of NESN, Midwest Sports (Fox), Comcast Philly, YES, and MSG would suggest an HD satellite feed may not be available.

One can dream...

Found this thread in an article in the Programming section about possible D* HD channels. It includes an interesting comment about Fox Sports RockyMt. adding HD to its lineup.

Panamsat Article (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040720/nytu054_1.html)

First time I have seen HD and FSRM mentioned anywhere. Boy, if we had a 'major league' baseball team here in town that could be really good news.

BTW, I noticed Ron's post yesterday about the McCain SHVIA amendment which could give access to HD for those in areas with no full power network HD. Frankly I don't see how that could apply to us, according to the letter I got from the KMGH lawyers a while back, the local network stations will be on in full power late this summer. Wouldn't that mean the law woudln't apply here since they will be 'online' soon at full power???? After all, the KMGH lawyers wouldn't lie about a thing like when they are going on the air to the FCC and the local community would they????? That would be 'outrageous' as well as insulting to both the FCC and the community!
:D

I just spoke with my contact at KRMA.

Schedule is probably a few months behind -- funding issues.

There are no roadblocks at this time -- engineering is still on track.

They're investigating ways to keep us better informed as work progresses.

Altitude sports to Dish Network it's now official...

DISH Network First Major Distributor to Broadcast Altitude's Network of NHL's Avalanche, NBA's Nuggets

DENVER--(BUSINESS WIRE)--July 22, 2004--EchoStar Communications Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH) and Altitude Sports & Entertainment, a regional sports and entertainment network from Denver-based Kroenke Sports Enterprises, announced a multi-year carriage agreement to deliver Altitude, with its coverage of regional NHL, NBA and other games, to sports fans in 10 states via DISH Network satellite TV. The announcement was made today in Denver by EchoStar Vice President of Programming Eric Sahl and David Ehrlich, Chief Operating Officer of Kroenke Sports Enterprises.

Beginning in September, fans of the Colorado Avalanche, Denver Nuggets, Colorado Mammoth and Colorado Rapids can watch their teams on DISH Network channel 410 as part of its basic America's Top 60 Plus programming package and above.

Altitude will feature more than 130 live Avalanche and Nuggets regular-season games, plus other local and regional professional sporting events such as National Lacrosse League's Colorado Mammoth and the Colorado Rapids of Major League Soccer. Altitude will also feature the best in regional amateur athletics, including both collegiate and high school contests, as well as entertainment and community programming.

DISH Network will broadcast Altitude to customers in Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Montana, Idaho, Nebraska, Kansas, western South Dakota, northeastern Nevada and northern New Mexico.

"This is a great week for KSE," said Ehrlich. "We introduce All-Star Kenyon Martin to the Nuggets fans and get a major distribution agreement for Altitude with our friends at EchoStar. Now anyone who has DISH Network satellite TV will have the opportunity to see the 2004-05 Nuggets, the Avalanche and other great programming."

As a marketing component of the agreement, Altitude will paint DISH Network's logo and Altitude's channel number on the Pepsi Center roof in Denver to make it visible to air traffic and high-rise buildings.

"For the very passionate Denver sports fans, DISH Network is now the first place they will look for all their professional hockey and basketball action," said EchoStar's Sahl. "Through satellite TV, we're broadcasting high caliber teams like the Nuggets and Avalanche to every square inch of Altitude's territory in a 10-state region."

"EchoStar once again has demonstrated its dedication and commitment to serving its customers by ensuring that Altitude will be available to fans and viewers throughout our region," said Jim Martin, Altitude Chief Executive Officer. "We truly appreciate the faith that EchoStar has shown in Altitude by becoming our first major distribution partner, and we intend, through our strength of programming and our marketing efforts, to make them very pleased that they have."

For more information on DISH Network and any of its products or services, call 800-333-DISH (3474), visit www.dishnetwork.com or contact your local DISH Network retailer. For information on Altitude, visit www.altitude.tv.

About Altitude

Altitude is scheduled for debut in September 2004 with programming from the Colorado Avalanche, Denver Nuggets, Colorado Mammoth, Colorado Rapids, Colorado Springs Sky Sox, Colorado Eagles, the Big Sky Conference, Air Force Academy, Metro State, ESPN Syndication (including Big 12 Conference, Mountain West Conference and Western Athletic Conference events) and the RMAC, as well as other local and regional sports and entertainment programming. A full list of Altitude programming and other information can be found at www.altitude.tv.

About EchoStar Communications Corporation

EchoStar Communications Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH) serves 10 million satellite TV customers through its DISH Network(TM), and is a leading U.S. provider of advanced digital television services. DISH Network's services include hundreds of video and audio channels, Interactive TV, HDTV, sports and international programming, together with professional installation and 24-hour customer service. DISH Network is the leader in the sale of digital video recorders (DVRs).

Visit EchoStar's DISH Network at www.dishnetwork.com or call 800-333-DISH (3474).

CONTACT: EchoStar's DISH Network

Marc Lumpkin, 303-723-2020

marc.lumpkin@echostar.com

or

Altitude

Tom Philand, 303-405-1199

tphiland@altitude.tv

Letter I just sent to Altitude Sports. (tphiland@altitude.tv) I urge others to do the same..

Sir, I am extremely disapointed in the exclusive contract that Altitude Sports has just signed with Echostar involving broadcast rights to Avalanche and Nuggets games in the region.

For a start-up network it would seem to be good business practice to attract the largest audience possible and by signing an exclusive contract with one satellite provider you have limited yourself yourself to a small fraction of viewers right out of the gate.

I just wanted to express my thoughts on this issue, and I am sure there will be a groundswell of unwanted negative attention voiced to your network in the coming days/weeks.

Good letter, but the contract with Dish is non-exclusive.

I also wrote, asking about any plans for Altitude-HD and if they're going to force HDNet to black out Avs games (assuming there will be a) next year.

Where do you get that this is an exclusive contract? The following statement seems to indicate that there will be other contracts:

We truly appreciate the faith that EchoStar has shown in Altitude by becoming our first major distribution partner

Roy

9News.com

" Englewood-based EchoStar Communications will air Colorado Avalanche, Denver Nuggets and Colorado Mammoth games under a multi-year deal with Altitude Sports and Entertainment of Denver.

Altitude will be the exclusive distributor of most Colorado Avalanche hockey, Denver Nuggets basketball and Colorado Mammoth lacrosse games beginning in September"

Sounds to me like ALTITUDE is exclusive, but Dish ISN'T.

I sure hope that you are right.

What do you mean hope? Nowhere was it stated that Dish had an exclusive contract. The Denver Post article explicitly said it was a non-exclusive contract.

Has Tom replied to you yet?

Hot News in today's Rocky!

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3058104,00.html

Newly released study says... Towers, Cancer not linked. The CO Dept of Public Health stated, "We can't concluded that there is a link between these things." Great news for LCGII & Mt. Morrision. Take that defense off the table.

Oh, it get's better! Can't have a story about the towers without a stupid remark from sCARE. Read this and I quote...

"This study is like taking the temperature of the community and seeing if there is a fever. We have found that there is a fever, now the next step is investigating whey there is a fever."

I think we all know who has a fever. ;)

But then in the Denver Post...

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~2289078,00.html

The story has a completely different spin. "Cancer rate up near towers on Lookout Mtn."
They spin it as cancer rates up, but still no connection to RF. But "this type of study cannot produce conclusive evidence about the cause of cancers," the researchers wrote.

sCARE liked this story better, as they state, "We're very concered." I guess the fever went down a bit.

I think this was my favourite part of the article:
The health department's studies, which together covered 23 years of cancer statistics, found 882 diagnosed cancer cases in the Lookout Mountain study area, nearly 10 percent below the expected 968 cases, further complicating the issue.
Apparently TV towers reduce your risk of cancer by 10%

Is this the study that sCARE was saying we should all be waiting for? If so, it seems obvious to me that we should get that new tower up immediately. Lives are at stake!

I like your spin the best!!!

Yes, this was the study by the research team from Colorado State University, the University of Colorado Heath Sciences Center and the state health department.

I wonder where we can read the actual study. [edit: here's the State press release, with a link to the full study: http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/release/2004/072204.html]

One thing about Charley Able, the Rocky reporter, is that he actually attended the tower hearings last summer (so he was exposed to sCARE's scare tactics in person).

I'm not sure if the Post reporter attended any of the hearings, or is aware that sCARE are a fringe group.

can anyone recommend where I can pick up a replacement Triple LNB assembly for a WNC DirecTV antenna? SoundTrack quoted me $70 - ouch. Lost all ability to pick up any transponders off 110 and 119 sats (101 is fine) from any of my receivers, and their tech support confirmed that Osama Bin Laden did not launch an attack to knock those birds out of geostationary orbit in order to deprive us of HDTV. They said it's most likely the LNB's/multi-switch that I would have to pay to replace (despite the fact they sold me this equipment brand new not 6 months ago)..

Have you tried asking DirecTV how much they'd charge to send it out? They sent me a $7.00 SAT C kit (which retailed for around $35) a couple of years ago when they turned on SHO-HD.

Have you tried asking DirecTV how much they'd charge to send it out? They sent me a $7.00 SAT C kit (which retailed for around $35) a couple of years ago when they turned on SHO-HD.


No, I didn't actually ask them - I figured if the guy I talked to recommended that I run out to a Circuit City type place to get one, then maybe DirecTV didn't sell parts. He may have figured I needed it immediately and perhaps that's why he didn't discuss that option. So I may try that then, or just roll the dice with Ebay... thanks

Just thought I'd post a couple of my favourite quotes from the Colorado Department of Public Health - Update: Tumor Incidence In Residents Adjacent To The Lookout Mountain Antenna Farm 1979-2002 - Citizen's Summary:

For the period 1979-2002, the number of cancer cases diagnosed in census tract 98.10 compared to the expected number of cases, for each of the different cancer types evaluated, were within expected statistical variation or were statistically lower than expected.
There was no indication of an increase in risk in block group 2 or 3 for leukemia or lymphoma, the cancer types most frequently associated with exposure to RF from broadcast towers in previous epidemiologic studies.

After a quick look at the actual study, it appears to me to say nothing at all.

The panel concluded that this study does not allow us to draw any conclusions about risk from the towers and does not provide an adequate basis to make additional public health recommendations to the community at this time.

The panel members strongly recommended further review of any well-designed RF exposure surveys for the Lookout Mountain area, should such data become available, and consideration of linkage of RF exposure data with available Cancer Registry statistics.

So, both CARE and LCG can say this study "proves" their point (LCG - No link; CARE, more detailed studies needed.)

-Wabisabi

What's the purpose of more studies? sCARE's been spouting that this was suppose to be the 'Mother-Of-All-RF' studies"? We've been waiting for this for years. It's say's there's NO link. What more can be studied?

Oh, was there any mention of a 'Body Temperature' increase in the Lookout residents? I'm still trying to figure out where she came up with that insipid analogy. ;)

Originally posted by whatsupjay
can anyone recommend where I can pick up a replacement Triple LNB assembly for a WNC DirecTV antenna? SoundTrack quoted me $70 - ouch. Lost all ability to pick up any transponders off 110 and 119 sats (101 is fine) from any of my receivers, and their tech support confirmed that Osama Bin Laden did not launch an attack to knock those birds out of geostationary orbit in order to deprive us of HDTV. They said it's most likely the LNB's/multi-switch that I would have to pay to replace (despite the fact they sold me this equipment brand new not 6 months ago)..

I have an extra one (new) that I will sell for $60.00 - Cash - You pick it up.

Send me a PM if interested.

Too bad you can't get one from Comcast, they've probably removed a few with their dish-buy offer. What ever happens to all those dishes, anyway? Do they really take them?

whatsupjay:

I would strongly recommend you talk to D* about this. If the first CSR gives you grief, ask to be connected to customer retention. Depending on how long you have been a customer, I would bet they would replace your dish/multiswitch and possibly fix it for free. Worth a try. They recently gave me a $250 customer credit after I bought a $1000 HD Tivo. They don't want to lose customers.

Originally posted by wabisabi
So, both CARE and LCG can say this study "proves" their point (LCG - No link; CARE, more detailed studies needed.)

-Wabisabi I disagree. I think it says (as I expected/hoped) that *neither* sCARE or LCG can prove their point. But it is definately more useful to LCG and more damaging to sCAREs case since sCARE was looking to this study to fill the burden of proof.

Well I have no idea what the Rocky Mtn News says, but the article in the Denver Post says HIGHER cancer rates, which the SCARE person already commented on.....

The Rocky article is linked in santellavision's post on the previous page.

Yeah, the Post fed on the item in the report that acknowledge a higher rate of brain cancer in the immediate vicinity of the towers. The problem is that that rate isn't statistically out of line with the rate of brain cancer in other parts of the Denver greater area with the same socioeconomic status.

It didn't emphasize that women in that area tended to have benign tumours and men tended to have malignant tumours (or was it the other way around?). Apparently the radiation from the towers only affects one gender. :rolleyes: Unless the cancer wasn't really from the tower.

The bottom line from the report, as wabisabi pointed out, was that they can't identify a link between the towers and cancer on Lookout Mountain. The rate of cancer on Lookout Mountain is on par or below what it should be, given the socioeconomic status of the area.

Not sure why the Post took the slant they did :confused:

Originally posted by skyview
Well I have no idea what the Rocky Mtn News says, but the article in the Denver Post says HIGHER cancer rates, which the SCARE person already commented on.....

But from what source? Increased radon levels in homes and water supply could easily account for the difference - as well as increased exposure to forest fire smoke, more dramatic climatic conditions (ice, snow, wind, etc), higher altitude - the list goes on. That was the point of it, there is no direct link as to what the causes might be, so that puts everything back to square 1. The claims can not hold water in light of other factors that may be the real problem. Labeling without knowledge may actually prevent the real source (if any) from being sought. It is wreckless, if not dangerous.

Originally posted by santellavision
What's the purpose of more studies? sCARE's been spouting that this was suppose to be the 'Mother-Of-All-RF' studies"? We've been waiting for this for years. It's say's there's NO link. What more can be studied?

Oh, was there any mention of a 'Body Temperature' increase in the Lookout residents? I'm still trying to figure out where she came up with that insipid analogy. ;)

I could be wrong, but I don't think this is the same "Mother-Of-All-RF" studies that CARE has been talking about. I thought that study was about melatonin levels, and was to include dosage/exposure data. (and I think they said it wasn't due out until 2005)

-Wabisabi

I just got off the phone with Tom Philand, Senior Vice President, Sales & Marketing/Communications at Altitude Sports & Entertainment. We had a good conversation about HD and carriage of Altitude in SD.

First off -- no Altitude-HD at the start. Apparently it was on the table with Echostar, but Echostar wasn't interested in a regional HD channel (big surprise). If there is to be an Altitude-HD, it'll likely show up on Comcast first. And we all know how quickly Comcast negotiates to add HD channels :rolleyes:

Exclusiveness of Altitude on Dish -- absolutely non-exclusive. Dish is the first to reach an agreement with Altitude. They're trying to get onto DirecTV and Comcast -- now that the Dish agreement has been finalized, there should be more pressure on DirecTV and Comcast (BTW -- if you haven't already called your provider and asked for Altitude -- call them!)

Any Avalanche games that HDNet produces will be blacked out in the same area as under Fox Sports Net. Mr Philand has a HD setup at home, so at least he'll be sharing our pain (he told me that he's not even allowed to get a waiver). It all boils down to the money -- their advertisers pay to be seen by the entire Denver market watching a game and they can't have viewers leeched off to another broadcaster.

I asked him about the approach people had suggested here, where Altitude-HD might be able to use an "unused" digital channel (like PAX or some other channel without any HD content) to broadcast OTA during games. He told me that would never happen. Besides the cooperative issues, they've got Dish Network (and presumably DirecTV and Comcast in the future) paying to carry this channel. If the channel could be picked up free with rabbit ears, the multi-channel carriers would be unhappy.

He was unfamiliar with DirecTV's spot beam technology and if that could be used to get Altitude-HD via DirecTV.

Finally the good news -- they're very aware, as the owner of the teams, that HD presents sports (especially hockey) in the best possible way for TV. As team owners, they really want to get their product out there in HD. Since they're building everything from the ground up, they've got HD in mind. One tidbit he told me was that they spent about 1.5 million to ensure their control room would be able to handle HD.

As soon as a carrier asks for Altitude-HD, he thinks they'll be able to ramp up within 6 months. That seems pretty quick to me -- we'll see if that holds up. Their plan at this point would be to build their own production truck rather than rent one. That would seem to bode well for their ability to produce plenty of HD content.

So they're definitely aware of the benefits of HD, and are working to make themselves as ready as possible, while still trying to strike the SD carriage deals and get themselves launched in a short matter of time.

Here's hoping ESPN-HD gets some Avs games in their national deal when the NHL resumes...

The City & Mountain Views article on the study says it was due in 2004.

http://www.colorado-citymtnviews.com/AntennaCSU.php4

I can't imagine there is two independent studies.

Hi guys, sorry for the interruption. I'm dropping in from Connecticut. I'm dropping in because I THINK we have something in common. Here in CT our local CBS affiliate, WFSB, is the only local station still broadcasting their digital signal in low power. So unless you live close to their tower, you can't get it. For over a year, they have been telling us that high power is coming SOON. Anyway, a while back I searched through some data trying to figure out how many like size CBS affiliates were still at low power. Denver came up as the only other market in the top 40. Hartford is 28.

So getting to my question, is Denver's CBS still at low power? I was searching around before for the info and saw a thread where Denver area people were posting what OTA stations they were getting and almost everyone had the CBS affiliate getting a decent signal strength so I thought maybe they upped the power. Here in the Hartford area, less than half the people can get a signal from them at all, and even fewer reliably. Could someone give me an idea of the situation in the Denver area for CBS?

Here in Hartford the latest from WFSB is that the target date is now August. We're getting pissed and thinking that we are going to miss football season again. We're trying to think of things we can do to get them going.

Thanks for your help from the CBSless AVSer's of Connecticut.

Jake,

CBS, NBC, ABC and the main PBS digital channels are all low-power in Denver. So, those of us outside the immediate metro area (and many of those even within that area) cannot get these channels.

And we will be that way for some time yet.

You are much better off in Connecticut.

Mark

Originally posted by mbuchana
Jake,

CBS, NBC, ABC and the main PBS digital channels are all low-power in Denver. So, those of us outside the immediate metro area (and many of those even within that area) cannot get these channels.

And we will be that way for some time yet.

You are much better off in Connecticut.

Mark

I assume by the title of this thread and reading a couple of posts that it is because they can't get a new tower approved? Can't they raise the power using the existing locations? Can the fact that they are still at low power be blamed on the stations, or do they have their hands tied?

With the exception of KMGH (ABC), the stations in Denver are at least trying to get full power on the air.

Their first proposal to the county where the Denver tower farm is located (higher altitude mountain just west of Denver) was in 1999. They've spent the last several years fighting a small, but vocal, group of opponents who believe that HDTV is going to kill them.

The can't raise power in their low-power location (top of the tallest building in Denver, but still 1500 feet lower than the current towers) because of many issues. County approval (different county than where the towers are) and electrical capacity on the rooftop where they are are two issues that immediately come to mind.

All are true.

3 of the stations (CBS, PBS, NBC) cannot raise their power because their locations (atop a downtown building) cannot provide the A/C power for them to do so. The ABC station is broadcasting at the same power as a 100 watt light bulb from their roof. The WB station is still only licensed to be at half power. The UPN station isn't on the air at all in DTV. And the best yet... the Fox station refuses to do so.

Life is just peachy here!

The Doc got a new doughnut!!!!

Just sent my e-mail to DirecTv to ask them to carry Altitude Sports.

Later
Joe

Originally posted by santellavision
The Doc got a new doughnut!!!!
Wow -- that didn't take long to get noticed :)

<OT>
For anyone wondering, it's a Dunkin' Donuts Boston Creme donut I had the pleasure of meeting in Boston last month. It's a shame I had to replace the Tim Horton's donut in my previous avatar, but that picture was quite old (and pre-LASIK) and I felt I had to do something to protest Tim's decision to bake all the donuts in Ontario and ship them by truck to all the locations instead of having each location bake their own fresh donuts.

And now you know...the rest of the story (with apologies to Paul Harvey)
</OT>

KMGH's take on the study: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/health/3568968/detail.html

Group Of TV Stations, Including KMGH, Want To Replace Some Antennas With One Large One :rolleyes:

"He said the health department's studies, which spanned 23 years of cancer statistics, found 882 diagnosed cancer cases in the Lookout Mountain study area when 968 cases would have been expected."

Ok, call me stupid but how does 86 cases less than expected constitute higher cancer rates???????????

Overall, the level of cancer is below average on Lookout. The level of brain tumours, however, is higher.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Overall, the level of cancer is below average on Lookout. The level of brain tumours, however, is higher.

First of all, 'Nice donut, dr_mal'! It does look a bit more chocolate flavored than the last one from Tim's. Of course you will assure us it is also low in calories, fats and carbs, and passes the Atkins' test too.

As for the level of cancer and brain tumors, you all overlook the obvious. It is apparent that prolonged exposure to RF from Lookout leads to 'stupid behavior', 'ignorance', increased ability for deceit, and an inability to tell the difference between fact and fiction. Although I have not seen any studies on that one, I am willing to bet I am right.

Frankly, I don't think it matters what the study says, (S)CARE will spin to to make the towers look dangerous, regardless of the facts involved. The only study they really want to see is one that can't be completed for at least another 5 years or more.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Not sure why the Post took the slant they did :confused: You can't be serious here.

If there's any way to spin a story as anti-business, anti-development and/or anti-environment, the Post will do it.

I'm frankly surprised the Post hasn't yet published an article stating "Rich HDTV owners want new broadcast tower; health of poor to suffer."

I'm frankly surprised the Post hasn't yet published an article stating "Rich HDTV owners want new broadcast tower; health of poor to suffer."I had to laugh at this. It's kinda' ironic, It's starting to turn against sCARE. I've had Lookout/Genesee neighbors ask me (because I'm in the video biz) what they need to do to receive local HD at home now that they've bought HD sets.

I tell them all about our 'situation' and all the mis-truths by sCARE, and how it's all about property values and not public safetly. And how sCARE really is two-faced when they were so adamant about all public safety for 'us'. Oh, but it was fine to radiate all the families with children on Squaw Mt. And even better, how they really 'CARE' so much about their own familes, that they continue to live on Lookout.

Many are starting to realize it's nothing but a crock. Interesting how things change, now that you want something.

Originally posted by kucharsk
You can't be serious here.

If there's any way to spin a story as anti-business, anti-development and/or anti-environment, the Post will do it.

I'm frankly surprised the Post hasn't yet published an article stating "Rich HDTV owners want new broadcast tower; health of poor to suffer."
Maybe that's why I've never read the Post, only the Rocky :D

Hi All,
I used to be an occasional poster on this forum. I just moved from Denver to the Raleigh/Duram area in NC. I must say it's nice to have so many choices of full power stations. WRAL is incredible. They do alot more than just the news in HD (True HD never upconverted SD as far as I can see). Right now they are playing Raiders of the Lost Ark in OAR 1080i, it looks incredible. Most of their shows are in HD also. So, I don't think KUSA will be taking the crown of best local HD station away from WRAL any time soon. It's awesome. I wonder why it's not a super station?
Antennae web says that I'm over 40 miles from the towers and I get 80% reception on my HD Tivo.

Hey Greg -- congrats on the full power HD! Raiders was a Paramount HD One syndicated show that we got here on KWGN-DT. I was able to TiVo the 2nd showing last weekend and I thought it looked great.

And just 'cause it's the only thing we've got to crow about back in Denver -- how's your HD traffic copter? :p :)

Seriously, according to KMGH, we'll have full power HD on the air any time now! Shouldn't be that long! :rolleyes:

Oh -- and you might want to update your location in your profile. What sent you to NC?

Just received the latest, completely biased, radical, sCARE newletter.

They are sponsoring a town-hall forum with the candidates for the two, soon to be open JeffCo Commissioner seats. This Monday, July 26th, 7pm @ Crystal Rose Events Center on Lookout Mt. Anybody going? Anybody, Bueller, anybody?

There's a story about how they are still desperately clinging at straws trying to fight the Mt. Morrison tower. They've now hired some "hotshot" appeals lawyer to take PIC to the CO Court of Appeals. (Guess they finally figured out that their current lawyer, ain't so hot) They did say that the owner of Mt. Morrison (Leo Bradley) recently died. And that they are afraid that some major national corperation might buy it. They also are afraid that Bear Creek Dev. owns all the area between and to the south of the current towers. And that is still vulnerable to re-zoning.

Of course, they also have a story about how the latest RF study. And how it absolutely says increased cancer. No question.

And Wabisabi was correct. (You are a God) The latest CO Dept of Health study is different from the CSU/UW study. They state that is still scheduled for completion, May 2005.

And my favorite... They seem to be getting desperate. They're now begging for donations to keep sCARE afloat. I guess that hotshot they hired is pretty expensive!

Is anyone having trouble with KDVR-DT? I usually get an 88 on my DTC100. Lately it has been at 64 with no picture. Anything over 40 is strong enough for me to get a lock. BTW, none of the other networks signal power has changed, here are my current(and have been like this always) readings:

KRMA-DT 64
KCNC-DT 84
KUSA-DT 70
KWGN-DT 93
KMGH-DT 00000000000000000000.000000000000000

KDVR is showing high 80s for me on my HD TiVo (as usual) with normal picture/sound.

KDVR-DT is coming in strong for me.

hmmmm, I wonder if something is up with my DTC100 or if the 64 signal strength is the problem. I think I'll have to check my amp while I'm at it. Thanks for the quick responses.

For whatever reason, KDVR-DT is was off 6 points from normal signal strength late yesterday and this morning (70 instead of 76). Tonight is still lower than usual at 73. Nothing changed on my set up.

Anyone else get the severe macro-blocking on KWGN Monday evening? It affected about 20 % of my wide-screen.

Originally posted by CEB II
For whatever reason, KDVR-DT is was off 6 points from normal signal strength late yesterday and this morning (70 instead of 76). Tonight is still lower than usual at 73. Nothing changed on my set up.

Anyone else get the severe macro-blocking on KWGN Monday evening? It affected about 20 % of my wide-screen.

The top-right of my screen on KWGN was a mess, while signal strength was good. I get FOX on KFCT 22-1, so I can't comment on KDVR.

Something is definitely broken (again) with KWGN; I suspect they're going to have to get yet another encoder shipped to them (sigh...)

It wasn't macroblocking for me last night but rather a large block in the upper 1/4 of the screen flashing pink and green with vertical hashes running through it...

Originally posted by sunshinedawg
KRMA-DT 64
KCNC-DT 84
KUSA-DT 70
KWGN-DT 93
KMGH-DT 00000000000000000000.000000000000000 You don't list KBDI-DT here... can you normally receive it as well?

From my home in Louisville I can receive all you list plus KWHD-DT but not KBDI-DT (and of there's nooooo chance of KMGH-DT)...

Originally posted by kucharsk
You don't list KBDI-DT here... can you normally receive it as well?

From my home in Louisville I can receive all you list plus KWHD-DT but not KBDI-DT (and of there's nooooo chance of KMGH-DT)...

Yes, I can get KBDI-DT but I have to reaim my antenna away from downtown. Since there hasn't really been much on, I just watch KRMA-DT for PBS and would rather leave the antenna where it picks up all the ones I watch.

I also get KWHD-DT and KDEN-DT (I think that's the call letters, I believe is the one out of Longmont).

The weird thing is that I always got KDVR-DT really strongly, so I would just positon my antenna towards the weaker stations and pick it up by default. The same thing holds true for KWGN-DT. I really don't watch FOX much except for sports.

The thing I don't understand is that my DTC100 DOESN'T say it has a weak signal from FOX. This is the first time I've ever lost picture/sound with a 60+ signal and no weak signal indicator.

BTW, I switched the KCNC and the KUSA #'s, it should be:

KRMA-DT 64
KCNC-DT 70
KUSA-DT 84
KWGN-DT 93
KMGH-DT 00000000000000000000.000000000000000

He's a story in Canyon Courier about the JeffCo Commissioners forum with candidates for the open spots. All I can say is they better get LCGII passed quick!

http://www.canyoncourier.com/articles/2004/07/29/news/top_story/top.txt

"It's ridiculous to build a tower because nobody is going to buy a $2,500 television without cable TV," said Woehr

Hey Jimbo! I have both a $3000 TV AND an expensive projector AND I don't have cable! Get a clue you twit! The towers stay, they were there first! When the (oft delayed) FCC deadline finally gets here, the full power digital will begin broadcasting from Lookout whether you vote for it or not!

$2700 TV and my primary source of HDTV is my OTA antenna on my roof. D* provides some HD, but I watch a lot more network TV.

Some of us still believe that broadcast TV should be available for free. (Or in the case of KWGN-DT, available at all)

$3,600 TV and about $6K total sunk into it, associated upgrades, and supporting equipment, and at least half of my HDTV and almost all of my local broadcast viewing is via an antenna in my attic. I have E*'s HD package and locals, but most "big time" stuff is on the major networks and my OTA setup provides a much better viewing experience whether just DTV or HDTV.

Some folks need to get a clue. Now that $700 HDTVs are flying off the shelves at Walmart SCs, more acquaintances are asking me how to go about getting the local HD broadcasts. Nationally, antennas and pre-amps are selling well, which is why Comcast trys to make every new contract an exclusive agreement. There is a quiet revolution afoot, but it has been well suppressed in metro-Denver.

Sure OTA broadcasts should continue to be available for any number of reasons. But just out of curiousity how many *future* HD owners that already have D*, E*, or cable for that matter, do you suppose will bother with an OTA antenna (beyond the built-in telescoping ones on the small secondary tv's in the home) if D*/E*/cable were offering most all the 15 or whatever local stations in H/DTV at the time as they do now with the SD versions in the Local's Package? Hey, that could happen before we have full power HD OTA afterall! ;)

I'm guessing it's probably the same number of E*, D* and cable SD subs that are bothering using OTA antennas on their main tv in the house now.

Yeah when you've already invested the cash into being able to view OTA digital tv it's easy to act like it's the way to go. But we had no choice because local network HD wasnt available any other way when we bought in.

Since nationwide, cable is still about the only way to get local HD from a multichannel provider, what percentage of those cable subs who got into HD at some point after cable starting offering HD in their area do you suppose use OTA digital as well? Certainly some do but I bet it's a very very small percentage. I have 3 OTA tuners but since I have Comcast now as well I rarely ever use those tuners. The only channel I care about that they get that Comcast doesnt offer is KMGH which I use for HD sporting events and a couple primetime shows. But if "KMGH" wasnt so chumpy in general they'd already be on Comcast and it'd be that much less "need" to use the OTA tuners.

This isnt meant to be a commercial for Comcast, it's just that since it's the box I use the most (has the 2 extra HD movie channels and the InHD's that DBS doesnt have) it only stands to reason that I wouldnt switch over to a diff STB (or even the tv's built in digital tuner if it actually had one) to watch KCNC-DT for example. Course those other STB's still have purpose even if rarely ever tuned to an OTA channel.. E* for the HDNet's and TNT-HD even though I havent perused that channel yet, D* for the NFL-ST and BEV for some other stuff.

You guys that primarily use E* for your premium HD content, you think that if Charlie started offering the Denver Locals in HD (say 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, and 31 anyway) on Sept. 1, your OTA tuners would get near as much action? Think your neighbor that doesnt even have an HD tuner yet but were to buy an E* one on Sept 2nd or beyond would likely even bother putting up an OTA antenna at all?

Originally posted by DP1
Sure OTA broadcasts should continue to be available for any number of reasons. But just out of curiousity how many *future* HD owners that already have D*, E*, or cable for that matter, do you suppose will bother with an OTA antenna (beyond the built-in telescoping ones on the small secondary tv's in the home) if D*/E*/cable were offering most all the 15 or whatever local stations in H/DTV at the time as they do now with the SD versions in the Local's Package? Hey, that could happen before we have full power HD OTA afterall! ;)

I understand what you're saying and I'm a current, not *future* HD owner, but as a D* subscriber, I'm paying for the locals. If I could get the same quality on all locals as I do with KDVR and KWGN (when working), I would cancel the locals on D*, save money, and in my case, pull in a station or two from Cheyenne.

Comcast, which would include locals at no extra charge, does not offer any HD in Fort Collins and has not clearly stated plans to do so. And I really don't want to switch anyway.

The quality of reception with DTV has changed the way I view antenna reception. It's really not a difficult decision when comparing paying D* for locals or having strong OTA for free.

I'll never (*) have cable TV service. Right now, I'm paying extra for D* locals. As soon as UPN-DT goes on the air here, I'll drop that and save some money. Even if the HD locals are available on satellite, I know they're not going to be compressed when I pick them up OTA. When you pay a few thousand dollars for the TV and tuner, what a couple hundred for a pro-installed rooftop antenna which will guarantee you pristine picture quality?


(*) I know, never say never...

I really miss (and I'm quite angry about) not getting any of the stations from Republic Plaza, but that is the way it is for me. No NBC,ABC,CBS,PBS, or UPN HD from Denver. The tower should have been approaching completion by now. I don't know or care if cable offers it, it is a free market and I have my reasons for having chosen D* as my service provider. (I get CBS from Cheyenne, but it is still hit-and-miss HD). The last thing I want is sCARE folks telling me I have to pay the cable company for local HD. I don't tell them what gas station to buy from. D* offers an OTA antenna with install for an additional $50 when purchasing an HD STB from them. No need to climb on the roof, and it would pay for itself in less than 2 years. DTV may bring new life to OTA, it is still too early to tell since we are faced with a generally unknowing public that thinks that HD material is scarce (and don't move on HD because they think it is still $2,500. Proof is in the article). And if it were available (scarce and expensive as it is), it is difficult-to-impossible to receive OTA. (Low power or non-existent HDTV stations contribute greatly to that). I'll even wager that the general public dosen't even realize the free OTA DTV signals are free from ghosts/snow/interference/etc. - a perfect picture and an antenna don't equate in most minds. These sCARE people need to get a life and stop trying to force Denver back into the stone ages. We have on the table a plan to bring us to where we were supposed to be before the turn of the century. But, despite the study that shows generally a more cancer-free population near the towers, they continue their lies and deception. (MORE towers? LCG consolidates towers - it is LESS towers!) Somewhat humorous was the description in the article of the commishes looking like prisoners. I would bet they were closer to looking like those Egyptian/Korean/etc. hostages held captive in ransom for troop withdrawal. It would have been more appropriate.

I pay for E* locals now. Once UPN gets on the air , I solve the KMGH problem for my reception, and run the OTA signal to the other TVs in the house, E* locals are gone. Even if E* locals were full DTV/HDTV, which is not likely to occur in my lifetime due to bandwidth shortages, I'd opt for the free and better quality OTA locals.

The only alternative to OTA is to pay the Pig. I quit the pig in 1999 and I'm not going back. I have to wonder if Comcast is the silent partner in the foot-dragging with Denver DTV. Follow the money. They are one of the few to achieve financial gain from the community's deprivattion.

I dont get it. You guys are paying for SD locals now but wouldnt pay for HD locals? Why did you ever pay for SD Locals to begin with either? You could have just put an antenna up and got pristine, albeit analog, reception for free all these years instead of the overly compressed crap that is DBS Locals.

I suppose next you'll tell me that even when the stations all go full power but perhaps from different locations, and regardless of that, subject to certain anomolies like multipath at your location or whatever.. oweing to a certain amount of dropouts per hour, that you'd still have no interest in getting the local HD channels from your multichannel provider instead of OTA. ;)

As far as the "pig" goes I hadnt used cable tv in over 15 years until this past January and I'll drop them in a heartbeat once I dont feel I'm getting my moneys worth. But after having gotten all the HD channels they offered, plus however many SD channels, all for under 21.00 a month for the first few months and continuing to get them at a decent discount now, all is well. Hell can even use my D-VHS machine to archive HD movies via firewire if I so choose.. something the DBS co's are yet to allow. But switching the bulk of my HD programming needs (and SD as well for that matter) back to D* or E* again is always just a phone call away if necessary.

To me, they're ALL pigs so it just boils down to what have you done for me lately. ;)

Just to throw in my two cents, I would gladly get rid of my antenna if I could get all the HD locals via DirecTV. I've even considered going the cable route, but just can't bear the thought of giving up my Tivo.

I "only" have about $5000 invested in my system, so maybe I can handle the lower quality of a satellite stream a little better. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by DP1
I dont get it. You guys are paying for SD locals now but wouldnt pay for HD locals? Why did you ever pay for SD Locals to begin with either? You could have just put an antenna up and got pristine, albeit analog, reception for free all these years instead of the overly compressed crap that is DBS Locals.


I can't get anything close to pristine analog locals OTA where I live, hence the locals via D*. As mentioned, digital OTA is a different story.

Once upon a time everyone got TV OTA. Then cable came along and offered many channels along with the locals. Folks signed up for cable in droves because of all the programming choices. When they did get cable they basically no longer needed OTA. Down came the antennas. If cable continues to offer free locals those folks will still have no need for antennas. If the satellite guys offered free locals things would change but as it is the $5/mo penalty to get crappy looking locals from satellite is just too much for too little IMO.

I just can't see paying for locals when I can better pictures for free. My attic antennas don't annoy me or detract from the appearance of the house or cause cancer or any other imaginable problems. What they do is save me $60/year.

I do think convenience and ease of use factor into the OTA equation though. Switching tuners from D* to OTA is a PITA...having all the channels nicely integrated into one tuner makes life easier. Thankfully most <all?> of the D* HDTV tuners also receive ATSC (and some even tune NTSC) so the need to get highly compressed crappy looking local signals from satellite is reduced.

Couple of reasons -- primarily, I needed locals via D* in order to be able to TiVo them with my DirecTiVo. Now that the HD DirecTiVo can TiVo OTA HD channels, I don't need them from DirecTV. Secondly, analog OTA reception is tricky at best. With DirecTV, even though they were compressed, there wasn't any ghosting or whatnot. Sure, with a decent antenna like I've got now, I probably could've made it work. But it was moot since I needed them from D* to TiVo them.

Also, now that we know what satellite companies do to local channels to squeeze them into their bandwidth, I'm unwilling to put up with compression. It wasn't quite so bad before must carry, but once bitten, twice shy.

Originally posted by DP1
I don't get it. You guys are paying for SD locals now but wouldn't pay for HD locals?
D* doesn't offer HD locals. If they did, I might go for it if the antenna didn't do the trick for me (like now, for instance)- depends on the cost (of course).

Originally posted by DP1
Why did you ever pay for SD Locals to begin with either?

Some channels from my antenna were too snowy, some had bad interference patterns, affected too much by lightning, aircraft, etc. Some had color shift/sound problems. Not a very sharp picture on some channels, etc. It is all about location. At 45 miles from Denver, analog is horrible here.

Originally posted by DP1 You could have just put an antenna up and got pristine, albeit analog, reception for free all these years instead of the overly compressed crap that is DBS Locals.
Other way around for me - and many others - many pay the $3 or $5 to get a better pic.

Originally posted by DP1
I suppose next you'll tell me that even when the stations all go full power but perhaps from different locations, and regardless of that, subject to certain anomalies like multipath at your location or whatever.. owing to a certain amount of dropouts per hour, that you'd still have no interest in getting the local HD channels from your multichannel provider instead of OTA. ;)
snip...

...(cable has) all the HD channels they offered, plus however many SD channels, all for under 21.00 a month for the first few months...

"$21 for the first few months" then what? it goes up? by how much? Just for locals in HD? No wonder people think HD is expensive. Or, are you telling me not to subscribe to D* any more? Does cable offer NFL Sunday Ticket? Center Ice? Sports Pak? MLB Extra Innings? E/W feeds of HBO/SHO/etc? Tivo? PQ via Comcast is quite poor here on most channels, and it doesn't offer nearly the selection of family shows as D*. I don't want to be forced to cable - ever. If D* offered locals in HD and having an antenna bothered me (as it does for some people), I'd probably go for the extra few bucks - not $30, $40, or whatever the pig wants. Many (outside of the Denver DMA) find a small indoor antenna to suffice, some a small outdoor (like square shooter) antenna works fine. One of the advantages of digital - given a decent transmitter and good height transmitter - there is less (or no) need to depend on other providers that cost more. It is happening all over the country - except in Denver.

Anyway, the concept of "MORE TOWERS" is something that needs addressed IMO. I believe we supporters need some "Truth in Labeling" here - any thoughts on bringing the truth up front by calling the tower proposal the "LCG Tower Consolidation Plan" or "LCG Tower Reduction Plan"? We have that buried in the plans - it appears to be necessary to bring it up front. We need the commissioners, the judge, and especially the general public to know up front that they aren't being honest. Any thoughts?

Originally posted by dr_mal
Couple of reasons -- primarily, I needed locals via D* in order to be able to TiVo them with my DirecTiVo. Now that the HD DirecTiVo can TiVo OTA HD channels, I don't need them from DirecTV. Secondly, analog OTA reception is tricky at best. With DirecTV, even though they were compressed, there wasn't any ghosting or whatnot. Sure, with a decent antenna like I've got now, I probably could've made it work. But it was moot since I needed them from D* to TiVo them.

Also, now that we know what satellite companies do to local channels to squeeze them into their bandwidth, I'm unwilling to put up with compression. It wasn't quite so bad before must carry, but once bitten, twice shy. Yes, and someday in the 22nd century, when the locals finally get their tower built you'll likely be able to get all of them for free OTA and have no analog problems such as snow and ghosts.

Certainly if you can't get decent pictures then getting locals from cable or the satellite companies is justified. Personally I cannot justify paying for locals because I get near perfect analog reception from the Lookout perch.

Check this out...

http://www.j-walk.com/other/wifispray/

Maybe if we get the city of Denver to spray it over the city, we could all improve our reception of KMGN! ;)

Originally posted by Mgibsoj

"$21 for the first few months" then what? it goes up? by how much? Just for locals in HD? No wonder people think HD is expensive. Or, are you telling me not to subscribe to D* any more?

What do I care if you sub to D* or not? Thats up to you.. If you think they arent piglike and give the most value to you and your family for your money, thats great! For me and mine multiple providers works better. For some of their unique offerings and the fact that I dont really hold any of them any higher than another. Whether it's Comcast for some HD Locals, the 3 "best" HD movie channels and the InHD's, E* for the HD Pack for the HDNets, TNT, ESPN HD, Disc HD etc or Evu for Out of Market HD Networks, WGN HD and Sportsnet HD etc. I'm currently paying 89.00 a month in total to the 3 providers (not counting what I pay to D* for NFL-ST). To me that monthly outlay is more than fair for what I get. I know plenty of people with any 1 provider that pay more than that per month and they're "limited" to that 1 companies offerings.

As to the "$21 for the first few months" comment, that meant for my total Comcast bill that included the Locals in HD they offered, the HD versions of HBO, SHO, Starz!, Cinemax, ESPN HD, and 2 InHD's (because all of the HD channels were in free preview) as well the 50 or 60 or whatever SD channels, and the cost of the STB rental. Since the only thing above the 20.85 a month it cost me to give it a whirl was a 28.00 install fee, why in the world would I NOT have taken em up on that offer? HD Locals aside since it's not like I really "needed" them, where else was I going to get Starz! HD, and Cinemax HD and the 2 InHD's for example? Those are HD channels I really want. D* or E* doesnt offer those. After 15 years without cable (used C-Band and later DBS over those years) why not try them out again.. I didnt have to commit to anything. Now my bill is 49.50 because I had to start paying for the Premium movie channels. I dropped SHO which I've never watched much anyway and am getting the other 3 at less than half price for another 6 months. Part of the 49.50 is also an extra 9.95 for the lowest Digital package to keep getting the InHD's (and ESPN HD and Disc HD but those didnt really matter cuz I get em elsewhere too). Thats still cheaper than the equivalent from D* whered you'd pay about the same 49.50 just for TC, the HD Pack and Locals.. but wouldnt get the 3 Premiums.

But look, this isnt about Comcast anywayz. If people think they're pigs and wont give them a single dollar for anything, so be it. Once I have to pay full ride for everything they're going to be gone just as likely as not. Thier every day price on Premium Movie channels cost more than DBS' do so I'll have to weigh if the ability to archive is worth the extra bucks. Maybe I'll give Voom a whirl then.. who knows. Bottomline is I couldnt care less what the name is on the front of the STB(s) where I get my programming. I just want the most bang for my buck at any given time. And sometimes theres a little luck involved too. You mention the Pro Sports packs on D*. Well the only one I care about is NFL-ST and it so happens I've been able to get that one ala-carte the last few years. And the HDNets.. while you cant get the HD Pack ala-carte from D* you can get it from E*, so I do.

As far as the tower stuff goes in my mind, I quit CAREing about that about 4 years ago. It took me all of about 30 minutes of research way back then to realize it was going to take years and years to sort out. The delay wasnt about something "simple" like needing to buy property for a tower and the owner not wanting to sell unless they got thier price. The health card was played and once that happened (contrived or otherwise it mattered not) years of delays were inevitable. So for me thats where ExpressVu came into play. It assured me that I wouldnt miss any Network HD show that I wanted to see. But of course that costs me money.

While I've used it for more than just Network HD, I dont expect people that apparently wouldnt be willing to pay 5.00 or 10.00 a month for Locals in HD if they could get them OTA instead to understand why I would be more than willing to pay 50 or 60 cents a day primarily for Network HD. Early on (before some of our locals were even up with their low power "solutions"), it was either that.. or do without. While some folks arent willing after spending thousands for an HD setup to pay for something they should get for free, I wasnt willing to spend thousands on an HD setup and have not much more to watch than PBS Demo loops and HBO/SHO while missing some great HD sporting events. It so happens I'd keep paying that money to Evu for various reasons even if our Locals all went full power tomorrow. Once upon a time it was a godsend.. even now it's worth it to me for certain channels and a bill less than what either E*'s or D*'s entry level packages cost.

Yeah! Sounds good to me! When do we move in? (oh, BTW, I have a dog with a bladder problem, but I clean it up fairly well - and my kid sometimes breaks things - hope you don't mind)!

Thats ok Mark since in my case it's a kid with a bladder problem and a dog that breaks things.. so it all evens out! ;)

I got up in a fiesty mood! I just wrote a letter to the JeffCo Commissioners. Can't hurt to keep those cards and letters comin'! commish@jeffco.us
----------------
Greetings Commissioners,

I live in Genesee and I am emailing you to show my SUPPORT the LCGII proposal.

I am very worried. Everyday, more and more of our personal freedoms are disappearing. I believe denying Free Television to our entire community is another of those freedoms that will be taken away. We need to keep TV free for the people of the entire Denver community who cannot afford cable or satellite.

And this is all due to the NIMBY group called C-A-R-E, whose agenda is not what they claim it to be. They are after nothing but Money. Through their effort to obstruct the proposed LCGII 'Reduction' tower, their only agenda is to profit from property values going up in their neighborhoods... period.

If you look carefully, everyone can see through their 'Safety' for citizens scam. They state over and over that RF is dangerous to our residents and you shouldn't build towers near people. (Even though the latest CO Dept of Health study proved there is NO link between towers and health issues)

OK then, why was it perfectly fine at the last public meetings, when they kept pushing to consider building the tower on Squaw Mt? They've been spouting over and over that RF is dangerous, you shouldn't build towers near people etc. Well how come it's not as dangerous when it's NOT in their backyard? They sure don't C-A-R-E about those families and children who live on that mountain do they? It's also OK, to hurt their property values, just as long as they can get another $50,000-$100,000 for their Lookout Mt. Mansions.

And my favorite C-A-R-E contradiction is... if they all adamantly fear so much about exposure to RF, then why do they endanger their own families lives day after day by not moving? I've checked, the numbers of homes sold in the Lookout/Genesee area has kept at a steady price/pace. They could move any day they wanted... if they really wanted to.

If I truly believed my family and children were in danger, I would move in a second! It's all about money, they really don't C-A-R-E about anything but themselves.

Thank you.

You go Ernie!

Hello!

I am moving to Longmont, Colorado, which is close to Denver, but not close enough it appears. I am being given the choice of D*, Voom, Comcast (yuk), or Dish I guess (not sure about the Dish network)

Currently I live in Milwaukee. While there are alot of things I don't like about Milwaukee, the cable company has been good to me. Time Warner Cable has about 8 HD channels and I also rented a DVR from them. The HD channel lineup includes ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, DISC, TNT, SHOWTIME, HBO, PBS. Plus, the menu for the Recorded programs and the Guide is highly comfortable, with no ads, and you can see the TV while looking over the menu.

On the other hand, Comcast in Longmont does not have HD, does not offer a DVR, and no telling when they will. Comcast is all ads and very uncomfortable (can't see the TV while looking at the menu). DirecTv is one I really wanted to go with (NFL Sunday Ticket) but then I found out they have like 4 HD channels and that is it. They don't even offer the principal networks in HD. (The olympics is coming up and I am not going to get to watch it in HD?!) Voom has all the HD channels, but I have yet to hear if they offer a DVR...and do THEY offer the principal networks in HD?

I have an RCA DLP and it has a builtin HD tuner. I have used a 35 dollar OTA antenna and been moderately successful getting some HD channels. I don't think I will be as successful in Longmont, but that is just a gut feeling. Also, of course, I am worried about the weather problems with a satellite...is that still a problem? I hear it snows alot in Denver.

What I really want is, 1 standard box, 1 HD box, and one DVR. If I could rent it, I would go with a HD-DVR, but something tells me that is still in the $1000 range to buy, and don't think anyone is renting them out. But I want to be able to utilize a DVR, and I want to have HD channels. Plus, I want the NFL Sunday Ticket (Cowboys games in Denver...hmm..are they even shown there?!) Since the only way to get the Sunday Ticket is DirecTV I guess I will have to go with them. Reluctantly, because of the HD channel lineup.

Sorry for the long post. I guess my real question is, do you have any suggestions?

Also, being in Longmont, what kind of antenna should I get if I want to get some OTA HD channels.

To be honest, I am just really PO'd that I have this big tv, and the olympics are coming and I am not gonna be able to see them in HD. sigh...

I am thinking right now about going with VOOM for most of my viewing pleasure, AND D* (for NFL Sunday Ticket).

I am about to pull what is left of my hair out...HELP!

Well, I don't want to turn this into a Comcast vs. D* vs. E* thread, but I went to an antenna for locals around four years ago now because Comcast in Louisville was so horrid.

It wasn't enough that their (at that time) analog system provided fuzzier pictures than I got from my antenna (including herringbone interference from some paging system somewhere near their Longmont head end), but they also have a habit of taking down their system for "maintenance" from say 2:00 AM to 6:00 AM whenever they feel like it without bothering to ever notify anyone (though of course the maintenance was always "planned in advance" when you called their answering service to complain.) Add other silly things like the fact that they also love to multiplex channels (one from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM, a different service on the same channel from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM) and it just wasn't worth it anymore...

Originally posted by SirCharls
I have an RCA DLP and it has a builtin HD tuner. I have used a 35 dollar OTA antenna and been moderately successful getting some HD channels. I don't think I will be as successful in Longmont, but that is just a gut feeling. Also, of course, I am worried about the weather problems with a satellite...is that still a problem? I hear it snows alot in Denver. Yes, it does snow here, and you do want to have your dish mounted somewhere you can brush snow out of it in case of a heavy snowfall (normal "light powder" snowfalls won't affect your reception.)

However, my past experiences with Comcast indicate that if the snowfall is at all unexpected they don't bother to turn on their dish heaters so you lose the channels when their dishes fill with snow (!)...

Longmont is mostly a low-elevation, shallow bowl with some hills/peaks so your chances of reception of NBC, CBS, and PBS HD depend alot on the location. I hear the west side of town (around Hover) has a good signal. FOX, WB, and a low-power SD-only PBS station are much easier to receive. I get CBS-HD from Cheyenne, WY since Denver is out of reach for me here on the northeast side of town. Cable does not have a very good picture on most analog channels here, so I never even checked to see if they had HD. A large bowtie antenna is probably the best for this location, but I have a CM4248 yagi if you'd like to give that a shot.

I think I'm the resident TiVo pimp here, so I'll chime in with my recommendation of DirecTV's HR10-250 HD TiVo. It'll record the 4 DirecTV HD channels, as well as anything you can pick up OTA in Longmont (which sounds like pretty limited pickings until LCG2 gets approved).

Also, the latest speculation seems to be that DirecTV will be able to provide NBC's HD Olympic feed to every DirecTV subscriber, so don't count out the Olympics in HD.

I have an RCA DLP and it has a builtin HD tuner. I have used a 35 dollar OTA antenna and been moderately successful getting some HD channels. I don't think I will be as successful in Longmont, but that is just a gut feeling. Also, of course, I am worried about the weather problems with a satellite...is that still a problem? I hear it snows alot in Denver.

I wouldn't be too worried about the snow, it doesn't snow nearly as much as you think it does. If you have reasonable access to your dish it is pretty easy to clean off. You won't be cleaning if off everyday. Maybe a handful of times every winter.

Also, being in Longmont, what kind of antenna should I get if I want to get some OTA HD channels.

I have this antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160) and it works just fine. More importantly i have this amplifier (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D2507) without which I wouldn't get PBS-DT, NBC-DT and CBS-DT. From my experience and reading others, you NEED an amp in Longmont. Hope this helps.

In the last three years, I have only cleaned off my dish twice and one was during the big blizzard in March 03. Rain has not affected it either.

My antenna is a CM 4248 (3023 in two pieces). It works fine and gets all channels including KMGH (ABC channel 17). However I live SE of downtown. There is no way you will get KMGH in Longmont.

I also agree with the HD Tivo. It is superb!

Here is another vote for DirecTv and the HDTivo - especially if you want the Sunday Ticket. You can get CBS-HD on *D, but as others mentioned you should also be able to receive it OTA from Cheyenne, WY. Other networks will be hit or miss with your antenna but you won't get them on E*, Voom or comcast which is lousy outside of Denver.



I am worried about the weather problems with a satellite...is that still a problem? I hear it snows alot in Denver.

You will have a lot fewer weather issues here in Colorado than you do in Milwaukee. I have a couple of minor fades (less than 5 minutes each) maybe once or twice a year. I've only had to brush snow off my dish once - during that blizzard in March '03.

SirCharls,

D* has the following HD channels:
HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN HD, Discovery HD Theater (packaged at $10.99)
PPV HV (pay per view $5.99)
Special Events HD (where NBC's HD Olympics feed will be, I assume)
Update: I doubt we'll get the NBC Olympics on D* (http://www.directv.com/see/landing/2004Olympics.html)
HBO HD, SHO HD (packaged with those premium pkgs)
KCBS HD (with a waiver from Cheyenne, probably)
KTTV HD (FOX, coming 9/12)
Bravo HD (rumoured coming soon)


D* will nearly give you a DVR as a new customer, but not the HD one (PM drmal for everything you wanted to know about the D* HD DVR) A good thread for what HD is on the DBSs is http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=419472

Did you guys catch this? There's another Denver HDTV website in town.

http://buyinghdtv.com/html/denver.html

Obviously not done by anyone who actually lives in the Denver area.

No mention of ABC's lack of coverage. They claim UPN is on the air on digital channel 19 and that both PBS stations are broadcasting 720p. Oh well.

Picky picky. They also didn't mention the Lookout fiasco, but I thought it was pretty well done overall.

Also, of course, I am worried about the weather problems with a satellite...is that still a problem?

I think it's kind of interesting what people think of the front range weatherwise. Most people have the notion that it is cold and snowy. Longmont is one of the sunniest areas in the country. In fact we get over 300 days of sunshine a year. As much or more than anywhere in the us except the southwest and dessert areas. Most people don't realize that it is semi-arrid. It is protected and sheltered by Longs Peak(14,255 ft 14th highest in CO and 48th in the US).
I was curious about precip totals and I found these: Milwaukee (http://www.berbee.com/careers/city/milwaukee/default.htm) Longmont (http://www.longmontchamber.org/comm_guide.cfm?PageID=5&AdPage=cg_community_profile)

Basic summary:
Milwaukee annual snow=46"
Longmont annual snow=45.9"
Mil ann precip=32"
Long ann precip=12"

I'm also moving into the Denver Area (Highlands Ranch, zip 80130). What are my odds of picking up OTA HD signals from this area? I'd like to stay with D* for the Tivo, but if I can't get HD locals at all, I might switch to cable (which is Comcast right?) I'm surprised more of you aren't recommending comcast as I figured that was probably the best way to get HD, are you all able to get the HD signals you want OTA?

Also, this is OT, but what broadband options are the best for the area? DSL, Wireless, or cable??? Any recommendations?

Highlands Ranch should have no problem with most local signals, of course KMGH-DT will be iffy at best, more likely just a fantasy...

Anyone else have problems with KCNC-DT late last night?

Their signal strength was down noticeably but it seems back to normal today...

All the channels are not available on Comcast due to contract problems. There is a seperate thread for Comcast in Denver (which is basically the only cable company in town). http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=293562

You should be able to pick up everything in Highlands Ranch, some people have even had luck with KMGH (ABC). Remember that you can put up dishes and antenna per FCC regs even though the HRHA wants you to fill out a form and swear that you can't put up them up in hidden locations.

While I was in Pittsburgh, the crew working on the new Madison, WI, tower took my 5 Mpixel camera to the top of the tower and took five images (I was hoping for more). One of them is aimed toward downtown Madison, from about 1240' AGL.

To see all five images, go here:

http://vidiot.com/TVTower-09.html

I even managed to get a shot of the tower's strobes tonight.

Originally posted by hoopsbwc34
(Highlands Ranch, zip 80130). What are my odds of picking up OTA HD signals from this area? Also, this is OT, but what broadband options are the best for the area? DSL, Wireless, or cable??? Any recommendations?

I used to live in 80130 with a view of downtown. I have a similar view now in 80129 (same altitude, further west and south) and I was able to receive KMGH OTA with a set of rabbit ears indoors. Line of sight and terrain varies widely in the Ranch, so you won't know until you try. I went with Comcast anyway, since the addition of HD was minimal cost for me (not free, since I didn't already have a digital subscription), and I thought they would be getting all of the locals soon. Apparently our definitions of that word don't match. I'm not thrilled that they're dragging their feet, but I'm not unhappy with the service they provide.
Since I have Comcast, I also have their broadband connection. I haven't had any problems, and their CSR's are pretty helpful, even though I have a Mac. They cut your bill $10/month if you get both cable and broadband from them.

gakon,

Did you notice a difference in PQ between the uncompressed OTA HD and the compressed Comcast HD signals?

Originally posted by hoopsbwc34
I'm also moving into the Denver Area (Highlands Ranch, zip 80130). What are my odds of picking up OTA HD signals from this area? I'd like to stay with D* for the Tivo, but if I can't get HD locals at all, I might switch to cable (which is Comcast right?) I'm surprised more of you aren't recommending comcast as I figured that was probably the best way to get HD, are you all able to get the HD signals you want OTA?

Also, this is OT, but what broadband options are the best for the area? DSL, Wireless, or cable??? Any recommendations?
If I were you, I'd stick with D* (did I mention I'm the resident TiVo pimp? :D)

Highlands Ranch has some of the best luck picking up KMGH. The rest of us have made a decision just to live without ABC-HD (or to pick it up from our "Canadian" homes). You shouldn't have a problem picking up the other stations, even though they're very low power.

As to why most of us aren't recommending Comcast -- I think most of us (in this thread at least) had our setups years before Comcast offered HD, so we've invested in roof-mounted antennas and are perfectly happy to get our local HD for free. I think a lot of HD newbies are going Comcast since they're offering an HD decoder for a few dollars a month, rather than having to spend several hundred on a decent OTA/Satellite box.

Mr. Video, I have to ask, even though it's off topic...how did you convince the tower crew to let you climb up there to take those pictures? I would think that their liability insurance wouldn't allow that to happen. Cool pics, though!

Originally posted by markdl
Mr. Video, I have to ask, even though it's off topic...how did you convince the tower crew to let you climb up there to take those pictures? I would think that their liability insurance wouldn't allow that to happen. Cool pics, though!

As explained in the pix captions, #441 specifically, I didn't. They had my 5 Mpixel camera while I was away at Pittsburgh.

Me and open heights do not get along. They wanted to get me up there though, insurance be damned (the lawyers are the ones that end up winning). My family wouldn't have sued anyway.

Recent events mean that I'll never get up there now. The view would be great, but ...

Oh, and at that time, one didn't climb the tower. As seen in the other images, one is hoisted up and down. They are doing a lot of climbing now.

I couldn't really get all that you were saying a couple of pages ago.

But answer me this: Are the REGULAR

Are the REGULAR channels on Cable as good as on D* ??

Do the HD channels look any better?

I'm asking because I am inundated with Comcast stuff EVERYDAY and it is actually starting to make me think.

I am like you. I don't care WHAT name is on the box. But unlike you I cannot afford more than one provider.

So, what do you really think is the best one?

Hey DP1, I KNOW it is only your opinion. But I'm asking.

Thanks,

rightslot

Originally posted by santellavision
Did you notice a difference in PQ between the uncompressed OTA HD and the compressed Comcast HD signals?

Minor nit, which is actually a major nit....

The amount of OTA bandwidth for uncompressed video would be many 6 MHz channels. All digital video that will ultimately be viewed by comsumers is compressed. It is the nature of the beast. OTA digital uses MPEG-2, which is a lossy compression scheme.

Even for OTA, the amount of compression used (a factor of bitrate allocated) varies per station. As an example, in the San Francisco market, the NBC affiliate allocates lots of
bitrate, such that I haven't seen a problem with the tapes that are sent me of that station. On the other hand, the WB affiliate's allocated bitrate is horrible, resulting in lots of large macroblocking.

So, it is very possible that the Comcast recompression of an HD channel might actually be better than the quality that one gets from the SF WB station, but it might still be worse than the station's OTA signal that Comcast is supplying on cable.

Normally my CBS affiliate's HD signal is pretty clean of blockies, but during the recent Grammy telecast it was unwatchable during any of the musical acts. My CBS station has a UPN SD signal as well, so there are lots of bits missing for the HD video.

Personally there are many times watching HD that I am not impressed with OTA HD. IMHO, 6 MHz of bandwidth is not enough for HD, let alone HD and all of the other data bits that are transmitted. It should have been 12 MHz. That would have meant not giving up UHF spectrum that is being torn away from the broadcasters.

I'll climb down from my horse now.

Originally posted by hoopsbwc34
I'm also moving into the Denver Area [snip] Also, this is OT, but what broadband options are the best for the area? DSL, Wireless, or cable??? Any recommendations?

Just curious if anyone can point me to a similar forum where I can get more info on broadband options.... thanks guys. Sorry to go OT, but I know you all have the info on this too!

Originally posted by hoopsbwc34
Just curious if anyone can point me to a similar forum where I can get more info on broadband options.... thanks guys. Sorry to go OT, but I know you all have the info on this too! Try looking at www.broadbandreports.com.

Opinions may differ, but I think Qwest DSL is one of the best deals around.

Once Qwest installed DSL in my neighborhood (only 6 months ago), I signed up because I never again want to deal with Comcast. (I switched to D*.)

Good deal for the price and it does download at up to 1.5 mpbs and up varies from 300kbps to 700 kbps.

mrvideo,

I understand that all HD get's broadcast as compressed MPEG2. But in Denver, Comcast's signal is taken off-air, not a direct digital feed from the stations. Then it's compressed even further by Comcast. What I was asking is after this additional compression, what does it look like?

This was just posted on the HD Tivo Forum in Tivo Community. Looks like our local network stations will be motivated to put their full power digital transmitters on their existing towers by next summer, which I think they can do legally. Maybe sCARE ought to shut up now and take what is clearly a BETTER deal in LCG II!


FCC Adopts Rules for Digital Stations

By Doug Halonen
http://www.tvweek.com

The Federal Communications Commission unanimously adopted rules today making clear that broadcasters who don't soon raise their digital TV stations to fully authorized power levels could lose potential audience reach permanently.

According to industry estimates, about 1,400 of the nation's 1,600 TV stations are offering DTV service. But some stations-particularly in smaller markets-are not currently operating at fully authorized levels, a move that critics charge is undermining the transition. In its order today, the FCC said most Big 4 network affiliates in the top 100 markets would have to be up to full power by July 1, 2005 or lose interference protection. Most other stations would have to follow suit by July 1, 2006.

"Station licensees that meet these deadlines will be permitted to carry over maximized service areas to their new digital channels," the FCC said. "Stations licensees that fail to meet these deadlines will not be able to do so."

Also today, the FCC adopted timelines and regulations under which broadcasters are supposed to pick the DTV channels they're planning to operate on permanently, with the first round of channel elections to be held in December and the final round in January 2006. In addition, the FCC announced that it has eliminated-at least for the time being - a requirement that broadcasters simulcast their analog-channel programming on their digital channels during the transition to the technology.

David Donovan, president of the Association for Maximum Service Television, said the channel-election decision is critical to the transition. He also said the association believes "most broadcasters will work very hard to meet" the "aggressive" power-level deadlines adopted by the FCC. "Already most broadcasters are providing DTV coverage to 92 percent of their audience," Mr. Donovan said.

One other nice thing about the announcement that I just read in detail is the fact that broadcasters don't have to simulcast their analog signal on the digital channels. So, KRMA could quit their silly simulcast from midnight to 6 PM and start carrying the national HD PBS feed.

Way to go Powell!

Originally posted by santellavision
I understand that all HD get's broadcast as compressed MPEG2. But in Denver, Comcast's signal is taken off-air, not a direct digital feed from the stations. Then it's compressed even further by Comcast. What I was asking is after this additional compression, what does it look like?

I just needed to point that out, since you did say uncompressed OTA HD.

Because cable doesn't use ATSC and 8VSB as their transmission method, they can't just take the ATSC signal and pass it through. They could take the MPEG-2 video and send it through, but as you indicate, they probably baseband it and recompress it, using a lower bitrate. That is unfortunate.

The 64$k question is how much of a lower bitrate. Can't be any worse than what the The WB affiliate in San Francisco is using :-)

DennisMileHi - -don't be jumping for joy yet - if they have legitimate reasons (such as your LCGII tower problem), they can hold out forever, it seems like...

Originally posted by santellavision
Did you notice a difference in PQ between the uncompressed OTA HD and the compressed Comcast HD signals?

Wow, that's an awful lot of posts to jump back to just to give you this answer. Unfortunately, I can't recall. I "bought" the OTA receiver last fall for a week from Sound....., fully intending to return it (trying to limit the number of electronics units I have to deal with, and for the reason dr_mal mentioned, too). I only watched a little (but did catch a MNF game). It was just before Comcast installed the HD box, and I wan't accustomed to the splendor that is HD, so everything looked great.
I do know that my setup was not optimum, so I did experience occasional breakups with OTA, especially KMGH (surprise!). I see breakups on Comcast occasionally too - annoying, but certainly not unwatchable. Other than the breakups, I don't think my eye is that discerning, so I think I would be more accepting of slightly lower PQ (if it existed) due to compression than others might be. Also, I still watch some SD channels (very few, and I never watch ABC any more), so the switch to an HD channel is always such a big improvement, I don't know if I'd notice if the HD PQ was a little degraded.

Originally posted by mrvideo
I just needed to point that out, since you did say uncompressed OTA HD.

Because cable doesn't use ATSC and 8VSB as their transmission method, they can't just take the ATSC signal and pass it through. They could take the MPEG-2 video and send it through, but as you indicate, they probably baseband it and recompress it, using a lower bitrate. That is unfortunate.

The 64$k question is how much of a lower bitrate. Can't be any worse than what the The WB affiliate in San Francisco is using :-)

I can't compete with you and Ernie on knowledge of the technology, but it has been said repeatedly on these forums (more than once by KenH) that Comcast does not compress (or do rate-shaping) HD signals in any way. What you see on Comcast is exactly what they got (except converted to QAM). Also, I was told by a Comcast line tech last summer that in Denver they have direct fiber connections to the major locals. I don't know if that's true or not.

Tim