Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
According to antennaweb.org there's but 1 mile and 3 degrees difference between KCNC-HD and KMGH-HD yet I get nothing from the latter.. It's the thousand feet or so of altitude that makes the difference.

I think my Sammy T151 just died. I turned it on this morning, and this is what I got. Anyone have any clue to what I can do?

Note that this picture is with the antenna unplugged, and after having the power plug pulled for ~20 seconds. Picture was the same when trying to tune to most channels, although some just had green junk all over.

It looks like I may have to break down and buy a new receiver. Suggestions?

Nevermind... I picked up a Zenith SAT520 for $180 (open box) at SoundTrack.

Additionally, I got about $350 in DirecTV credits. :D

Only problem is I didn't get a remote. Anybody have a SAT520 who can let me borrow their remote for a couple of days to program my MX500?

Did anyone notice last night that for a while Fox 31 and 31-1 had different programming on at the same time. I didn't see anything in HD but wonder if it was part of testing their new equipment.

Originally posted by Phil T
Did anyone notice last night that for a while Fox 31 and 31-1 had different programming on at the same time. I didn't see anything in HD but wonder if it was part of testing their new equipment. I wasn't watching Fox last night, but the HDTV Programming topic had a thread for somewhere else commenting on what you noticed. Speculation was that it's a dry run of some kind.

The latest I've been able to glean from the other threads is that 8/30/04 (tomorrow night) is the go-live date for the splicer.

Logical to assume they were testing it out here over the weekend before weekday primetime.

Originally posted by dr_mal
The latest I've been able to glean from the other threads is that 8/30/04 (tomorrow night) is the go-live date for the splicer.

Logical to assume they were testing it out here over the weekend before weekday primetime.

It would seem that all of the Fox affilaites should have been using the splicer a while ago. Why do I say this? The Fox network satellite feeds have dropped the 4:2:2 MPEG-2 DVB video/audio and converted to ATSC data a while ago. ATSC data is totally worthless in that form, other than to send to the transmitter. Either that, or one has to spend extra money to have a piece of equipment to tear apart the data in order to get video and audio that can be routed through the station's plant. It would seem strange that Fox would go to ATSC data on all of their satellite signals unless they were already using the splicer everywhere.

I'll have to ask my local Fox affiliate chief engineer the situation over at his station.

BTW, even the Canadian feeds are ATSC and they certainly can't use them in that form. With ATSC video being the inferior 4:2:0, I'm surprised that they did that. If I were a Canadian station group I'd be complaining and pressuring 20th Century Fox to return to 4:2:2 DVB data. The ATSC data is fine if it goes directly from the sat feed to the transmitter. Any other use will result in video that will be degraded.

Just a quick note for everyone. Pete is flying in tomorrow to help with the sign-off of the LCG/Jeffco hearing resolution to send it back to the court, but he needs to fly out in the afternoon. As a result he will not be able to meet with us on this trip. He does still want to have a get together and celebration with the AVS group, and he will let us know when his next trip to Denver will be so we can get together. I will post when I hear from him again.

Any details of the time of the court date? I want to hear that 'Mother-of-All-Opening Briefs!

Originally posted by santellavision
Any details of the time of the court date? I want to hear that 'Mother-of-All-Opening Briefs!
No date that I know of. Pete promises to keep us informed when something might happen. I doubt they can set a court date until the papers that are signed tomorrow are formally filed and then reviewed by the court, so I would think we are a few weeks away from anything.

Originally posted by Capt Carnage
As a UA alum, I get the Fox MultiSport so I can get Fox Arizona on Dish. I get 10-12 more basketball games a year, plus they wil be showing a coupel of footbal games, including the NAU game. I think DirectTV offers it as well.

Sweet! A fellow alum!

I'll do the same (but I'll probably just add it on Saturday and turn it off Sunday cause I don't want it the rest of the time....until bball season) That will get my the first three games this season (Wisconsin is scheduled to be on ABC) But, that doesn't help me with the games that aren't televised except on tape delay in Tucson. That's what I was really excited about! Plus, the ABC affiliate will carry Big 12 games here instead of Pac 10 :-(

For the record, when I first noticed the KWGN glitches a month or so ago, I had a Samsung SIR-T165.

I now have an LG LST-3410a and saw them the other day, but since I've had the Olympics on pretty much 24x7 for the past few weeks, it didn't matter too much.

What I did notice about KWGN is two weeks ago, the first hour or so of Star Trek IV on Saturday night played in OAR HD, and the last hour or so in SD strech-o-vision... :confused:

Originally posted by kucharsk
What I did notice about KWGN is two weeks ago, the first hour or so of Star Trek IV on Saturday night played in OAR HD, and the last hour or so in SD strech-o-vision... :confused: And then it went back to HD. It seemed to be one those "failed to flip the switch after the commercial" problems.

I happened to still have KMGH on after MNF and they just did a bit during their news about how their HD channel is now on Comcast, then followed it with a consumer report on buying an HD monitor. Some of what they said was a bit misleading. For example, they seem to be under the impression that the only ABC programs available in HD are Monday Night Football and NYPD Blue and that "it may take some time before other shows are." Oh well. I guess KMGH now has no reason to put any more power out of their HD twig.

How I interpreted the above post (with apologies to TommyK):

"I happened to have KMGH <blah, blah blah>"

:p

At least I got a new HD channel on D* tonight -- one more HD alternative to KMGH.

And with D* adding Fox HD E/W and NBC HD E/W in Sept., I wonder if I'll get my ABC from D* before I ever see it OTA.

Let KMGH just try and deny me a waiver!

KMGH??? Is that a "new" Denver station. I have not heard of them, and my receiver certainly has never seen a signal from a station like that. Is that the station the lawyer said would be on the air from Lookout by August of this year??? Where is it???? Do I need to get a new 'coathanger' antenna for my setup???
:rolleyes:

Do I need to get a new 'coathanger' antenna for my setup???
:rolleyes:

I hate to tell you this John, but it will take more than just a simple coathanger (like the one they transmit with)! To receive you'll need a giant, amplified ChannelMaster or Winegard coathanger to even begin pulling them in! ;) Either that or move somewhere across the street from them!

Originally posted by dr_mal
How I interpreted the above post (with apologies to TommyK):
"I happened to have KMGH <blah, blah blah>"
:p


Guilty. Wasn't exactly the intent of my post, but guilty.

Not sure exactly when it got fixed, but the URHC anomaly on KWGN was gone last night.

I just posted over in the programming forum about what KDVR-DT is sending out, and foxeng agreed that it may be that we don't have the necessary splicer installed to get HD (still stretch-o-vision SD). Hope they can get this going in time for football!

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
I just posted over in the programming forum about what KDVR-DT is sending out, and foxeng agreed that it may be that we don't have the necessary splicer installed to get HD (still stretch-o-vision SD). Hope they can get this going in time for football! 14:9 doesn't really qualify as "stretch-o-vision" to me; perhaps "str-o-vision." :D

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
I just posted over in the programming forum about what KDVR-DT is sending out, and foxeng agreed that it may be that we don't have the necessary splicer installed to get HD (still stretch-o-vision SD). Hope they can get this going in time for football!
The splicer is installed at KDVR. I got this e-mail from Skip Erickson, VP Engineering and Operations at KDVR, on June 25th.

Subject: Re: Question about Fox splicer
From: "Skip Erickson" <********@fox.com>
Date: Fri, June 25, 2004 9:07 am
To: ******@dr-mal.com

Mr. Maloney,

The Splicer is installed at KDVR and we're looking forward to broadcasting the 720p
HD images from Fox in the upcoming sports and Fall entertainment season. If you
ever have any problems with our signal or have any questions on Digital TV, please
give me a call.

Based on your location, I'm assuming that you receive our DTV signal on Chl. 32 from
Lookout Mountain. I am curious if have ever attempted to receive our DTV signal that
we broadcast out of Ft. Collins on Chl. 21? If you have, I'd appreciate knowing the
results.

Thanks for watching FOX31 and making the jump into DTV!

Best regards,

Skip Erickson
VP Engineering and Operations
FOX 31 Television
Denver, CO
(303) ***-****
********@foxtv.com

cc: KDVR public file


Could be they just haven't switched over to have the splicer driving their signal yet.

Thanks!!!

Since Mr. Erickson at KDVR sounds interested in Ch. 21, maybe he would like to know that with very rare exceptions I can't lock onto Channel 21 (Fort Collins), and I'm IN Fort Collins. I haven't tried it in a long time, though, so if they have changed something maybe I should try again. I have an antenna rotator, so it isn't a problem with antenna orientation. Fortunately, I can get Ch. 32.

Mark

And I'm IN Ft. Collins.Mark,
That's funny! I can get 21 all the way down here in Golden.

It used to be that I couldn't get anything from them, but now I can get 21 most of the time. It isn't a very strong signal, but it usually stays locked for me.

I've gotta give KMGH a thumbs-up here. Don't tell anyone in the OTA thread, OK?

Say what, dr_mal? KMGH is still broadcasting?

Originally posted by mknoebel
It used to be that I couldn't get anything from them, but now I can get 21 most of the time. It isn't a very strong signal, but it usually stays locked for me.

OK, I tried again, and I was able to lock with about a 65 signal strength on Ch. 21 using my Echostar 6000. In comparison, I get 80+ from KDVR-32.

It appears that when I add this channel, it replaces 31-1 in my guide, so I haven't found a way to have both 21 and 32 usable at the same time without adding/deleting channels.

I still think multipath, as well as signal strength, is part of my problem with 21. I get a lot of ghosts on analog 22, which transmits from the same place.

Mark

Originally posted by donyoop
Say what, dr_mal? KMGH is still broadcasting?
Thanks donyoop :p

I still can't get a whiff of the mythical KMGH-DT. But from reading comments in the Denver Comcast thread, it seems the new GM at least listens to -- and then acts on -- viewer feedback. Once KMGH-DT got onto Comcast, a viewer e-mailed the GM complaining about the 4:3 stretch. The GM took a look at the picture his station was sending out, agreed that stretched 4:3 to fill a 16:9 frame looks like crap, and told his engineers to fix it. That earns the new GM a thumbs-up from me.

Now if he could get the station availble to people OTA for free, I might give him a couple of thumbs up.

I noticed that 4-1 audio was 2.0, not 5.1, and that at times meant that the announcers were not audible. The east and west coast hd feeds (via D*) were fine (5.1). I called KCNC, spoke to a nice fellow in engineering, who checked into it and determined that the encoder needed to be reset (apparently it's supposed to switch automatically to 5.1, but doesn't always). I was surprised noone else had noticed/called - is this an indication of how small the hd/ u.s open audience is? We all know how important the audio is when watching Maria Sharapova, right? ;-)

Anybody notice the lipsync problem on KUSA's Hawaii show Monday night?

Originally posted by santellavision
Anybody notice the lipsync problem on KUSA's Hawaii show Monday night?

Yep! No 5.1 either.:(

Last night on CSI Miami and this morning on their local 5 am news, 4-1 was putting out what my Denon tells me is Dolby Digital. Not 5.1 just yet, but a sonic improvement over DPL II. Anyone else see it? Real deal or temp switch glitch?

Dolby Digital is the format for all audio sent in an ATSC stream. So every program on any digital channel will be in DD format.

When did the thread title change (how long have I been sleeping?!):D

Shouldn't there be a NOT! in the new thread title?

Sometime today.

OT: Hey Ron, I saw your letter published in S&V (I think) a few months back.

I just saw the new thread name as well. I thought for a minute that there was some new info!

I kinda liked the "Part 3" in the thread title ;)

It changed sometime after my post this morning, but obviously before Ron's post.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Dolby Digital is the format for all audio sent in an ATSC stream. So every program on any digital channel will be in DD format.

At least at my house, 2-1, 6-1, 9-1, 12-1, 31-1 all default to DPL II, except on occasion when one of the stations does someting special -- Olympics for example -- in DD. As of five minutes ago, 4-1 was sending a DD signal that I have only seen on sports, etc. I first noticed (heard, there's quite a difference) last night on CSI Miami; I have never seen 4-1 send a DD signal in their normal prime time offerings before.

Again, it sure ain't 5.1, but there is an upgrade in the sonic quality.

Well when I used to own a Denon it'd say Dolby Digital when it was "sensing" a 5.1 signal and say Dolby Prologic when it wasnt although technically of course, as other have said, *all* audio is a form of DD when it's a digital channel. So Denon made it kind of confusing in that regard because in general when we think of Pro Logic we dont think of it as Dolby Digital.

The bottomline here though is what happened was KCNC didnt switch back away from sending out 5.1 (5.1 was called for during the tennis) when they should have. So while your receiver is still sensing a 5.1 signal, it isnt a true 5.1 signal that is being sent out. You'll notice like now, during the Noon news it's still showing 5.1 yet theres no center channel audio.

It's not the first time thats happened. With KCNC or other CBS-DT affiliates around the country.

Originally posted by santellavision
Sometime today.

OT: Hey Ron, I saw your letter published in S&V (I think) a few months back. Yeah, that was me (can I claim to be a published writer now?!)

I have a Denon also. According to the manual, it will go to DPLII when the source is DD 2 channel; and Dolby Digital when the source is DD 5.1. Of course as Dan pointed out, it can be flagged as DD 5.1 in the source and still have content in the L/R channels only. Then we are out of luck because we can not override it into DPLII (at least not without reading the manual more! ;))

Originally posted by santellavision
Sometime today.

OT: Hey Ron, I saw your letter published in S&V (I think) a few months back. Yeah, that was me )can I claim to be a published writer now?!)

You could even claim it twice ;)

You passed me in post count -- I have to do something :D

Thanks for the clarification! So, sometimes it is DPL II when it is actually DD 2.0, and sometimes it is DPL II when it is stereo only, reprocessed by my selection. And sometimes it says DD when it is stereo only and someone fails to flip a switch.

Funny world; expensive hobby!

It's a little confusing.

A lot of people equate Dolby Digital with 5.1 surround sound. That's not accurate. Dolby Digital is just a method of transmitting audio (*). It can have anywhere from 1 to 6.1 channels. (although 6.1 is technically called THX EX, not Dolby Digital EX)

Dolby ProLogic (and DPL2) is a method of storing (and then extracting) surround information from a 2-channel source. That 2-channel source could be analog, or Dolby Digital.

The audio format for ATSC in the US is Dolby Digital. Any audio sent as part of an ATSC stream will be sent in the Dolby Digital format.

It sounds like your receiver is showing some intelligence about when to activate DPL2 -- that should be a good thing. But the fact that you said the sound quality was markedly better when your receiver was just passing through the audio instead of activating DPL2 -- that sounds like a bad thing.

(*) At least in the context of home receivers. If you see Dolby Digital in a movie theatre, that'll always be full-on surround sound.

Yeah it is confusing I suppose and then as far as I'm concerned Denon makes it moreso. If they're going to setup the front panel display to sometimes say, in big letters.. Dolby Digital.. it should do that *anytime* a DD source is involved (as in every single moment it's decoding any OTA digital broadcast for example). Whether it's mono all the way up to 6.1, not just when it's 5.1 or above. And then use a smaller led's to designate the number of channels in question that the unit is truly receiving.

Kinda like how it does when the front panel display reads Dolby Prologic; you'll either have an analog or a digital indicator as I recall.

Originally posted by dr_mal
It can have anywhere from 1 to 6.1 channels. (although 6.1 is technically called THX EX, not Dolby Digital EX) Actually, it is still called Dolby Digital EX (http://www.dolbydigital.com/Consumer/Technologies/DDEX/) but can (or not) have THX post processing thrown in. And technically it is still 5.1 but the L/R surrounds have a matrixed third surround channel that can be extracted by the surround processor (if it can) and played as a rear surround by one or two speakers. Only DTS has discrete 6.1 channel audio.
Dolby ProLogic (and DPL2) is a method of storing (and then extracting) surround information from a 2-channel source. That 2-channel source could be analog, or Dolby Digital. And of course, DPLII works great with sources that do (the old Dolby Surround) and don't (std 2-channel, like CDs, radio) have surround info matrixed into the 2-channels.

<off topic>

Originally posted by RonAuger
Actually, it is still called Dolby Digital EX (http://www.dolbydigital.com/Consumer/Technologies/DDEX/) but can (or not) have THX post processing thrown in.
That must've changed in the last couple years. Back when it was first introduced, it was definitely THX EX.

I had to give up my S&V subscription a few years ago -- it was getting expensive. Not the subscription cost -- the cost of running out to SoundTrack every month the day after the S&V magazine arrived :) What was the gist of the letter?

</off topic>

They had a feature article in April called "Top 6 A/V Urban Legends Exposed!". I pointed out they were propagating one suitable for number 7 on their list, instead of dispelling it, by stating HDTV was mandated by the FCC. They printed it in the July/Aug issue (http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=645) under Feedback.

Originally posted by dr_mal
It's a little confusing.

A lot of people equate Dolby Digital with 5.1 surround sound. That's not accurate. Dolby Digital is just a method of transmitting audio (*). It can have anywhere from 1 to 6.1 channels. (although 6.1 is technically called THX EX, not Dolby Digital EX)



I also noticed channel 35 transmitting surround when watching CSI Miami last night. I set my Denon to widescreen mode and then the receiver detects what kind of source it is and displays it. Normally I get the Prologic message up but when it detects surround it displays 6.1 Surround TV (with the TV input) instead of Prologic II TV. I don't think CBS is transmitting anything more than 2.1 for series television though, but CBS 4 must be converting it up to DD 5.1. Maybe CBS 4 could weigh in here.

The Denon (mine is the 1082) does do a fair job of matrixing Prologic II to the side surrounds and rears.

Don

I was looking forward to the Bronco-Chiefs season opener Sunday night on ESPNHD, but notice on my TIVO guide that is it being simul-cast on KUSA.

Does anyone know if Comcast will carry the Hi-Def feed from ESPN or will they black it out in favor of the KUSA broadcast? If they do black it out, will the KUSA feed be in Hi Def?

Originally posted by dr_mal
I kinda liked the "Part 3" in the thread title ;)

It changed sometime after my post this morning, but obviously before Ron's post.

Sorry, trying to get some consistency in the thread titles.

Has this thread morphed into a primarily OTA thread? Most markets simply have an HDTV thread, but when the volume justifies it, I'd like to have a separate cable and OTA thread to keep one topic from swamping the other. I noticed there's a large (not this large of course) Denver - Comcast thread. If there's no objection I'll make this the Denver OTA thread - otherwise we'll just keep it as HDTV.

I just joined the forum after lurking for some time. I have been an E* subscriber with HD for quite some time. However, I thought I'd try Voom and did so for a few months. I'm now trying to get CBSHD from NY back on E*. I had it before I switched to Voom and now I have talked to three csr's and I'm told I do not qualify. What has happened since I last had it in May? Help.:mad:

CPanther,

Since we don't have ANY full-power, OTA HDTV in Denver, my suggestion is to just make it Denver OTA Struggle. Our battle to get one 'real' HDTV OTA station will continue for many more years.

And your signature link for national stations broadcasting HDTV is incorrect for Denver. We don't have one station in full-power HDTV. Not one. Sorry, but a 100 watt X-mitter and a coat-hanger on the stations roof is NOT HDTV!

How do you get 300k views without decent HDTV? We should probably card people to get into this thread - something tells me that there aren't 8800 posts of people offering gentle encouragement to your local affiliates. :)

Originally posted by CPanther95
How do you get 300k views without decent HDTV? We should probably card people to get into this thread - something tells me that there aren't 8800 posts of people offering gentle encouragement to your local affiliates. :)
There aren't 8800 posts -- that's only in part 3 of this thread :)

Yeah, this thread started off as specific to OTA and has generally stayed there. Over the thousands of posts, we inevitably stray into other areas, but this thread sticks pretty close to OTA.

Originally posted by CPanther95
How do you get 300k views without decent HDTV?We're commisserating(sp?) We should probably card people to get into this thread - something tells me that there aren't 8800 posts of people offering gentle encouragement to your local affiliates. :) This is the 4 iteration of the thread. You had a thread length limit years ago and had to continue this in new threads several times. It's probably closer to 11000 posts now - and trust me; it's not all gentle encouragement to broadcasters. We've had a nemisis to talk trash about. The Denver area has been held hostage by a NIMBY group of anti-tower zealots -- the ying to our yang; they're BANANAS; if what matters around here is HDTV, they are anti-matter; "Bizarro-AVs".:D

I hope your hardware/software can handle another 11000 posts in this thread.

Since you guys seem to take the Part 3 as a "Badge of Honor" - I added it at the end, which is still consistent with the new format.

So in Denver it's-
Towers: Bad / Circus: Good........got it.

Originally posted by CPanther95
How do you get 300k views without decent HDTV?

Well, lets see. You have about 30 guys that give a crap about HD. That would be 10,000 views a piece. If they've been viewing the thread for about 4 years that works out to around 7 views per day each.

Sounds about right to me. ;)

Originally posted by wantin'atheater
I was looking forward to the Bronco-Chiefs season opener Sunday night on ESPNHD, but notice on my TIVO guide that is it being simul-cast on KUSA.

Does anyone know if Comcast will carry the Hi-Def feed from ESPN or will they black it out in favor of the KUSA broadcast? If they do black it out, will the KUSA feed be in Hi Def?

First of all, isn't KCNC 4 the "Broncos" Station now, so wouldn't it be simulcast on KCNC.

And in previous years, whenever there has been a Sunday night game, it has been broadcast on both ESPN and KUSA, with no blackout. And if that is the case this week, I'm guessing the local feed will also be HD.

Originally posted by BileHazard
And if that is the case this week, I'm guessing the local feed will also be HD. Not a good assumption. I don't believe the HD distribution systems are robust enough yet to permit cross-network links like this.

Originally posted by BileHazard
First of all, isn't KCNC 4 the "Broncos" Station now, so wouldn't it be simulcast on KCNC. No. It is on KUSA in SD and ESPN HD in HD. At least, that's what TitanTv says. But as always, we'll haveto wait and see for sure.

Bravo HD+ is supposed to have the US Open Tennis rightnow but it is showing Winter Olympics. I guess he good news is that hockey is back in HD!

US Open was rained out today.

There was a time when I would watch rain if it was in HD ... :)

Watch rain in HD? Only if it was way special rain.

Oh, and no big deal, but KCNC is the official Broncos station this year, unless the game is on ABC, ESPN, or FOX. As I said, no big deal unless you are in advertising sales.

So CBC will be showing the World Cup semifinal game (Canada vs Czech Republic) on Saturday night in HD. espn2 will also be carrying the game in lovely standard def.

Anyone with a HD BEV setup want to invite me over to watch? Pretty please?

Tonight KDVR has their splicer on line - bad news is that the picture breaks up alot at the start of every new shot, and the sound is off by 1 or 2 seconds. I wish they hadn't waited until now to try it out... hope that it can be fixed for Sunday!

How about for a week from Sunday, when the Broncos are on Fox?

Originally posted by dr_mal
Dolby ProLogic (and DPL2) is a method of storing (and then extracting) surround information from a 2-channel source. That 2-channel source could be analog, or Dolby Digital.

There's DPLII?

But, as I understand it, Dolby ProLogic is only "decoding" circuitry. It is just better, i.e., more advanced, at separating the four channels from the two, specifically the rear surround channel.

The encoding of Dolby Surround/Dolby Stereo hasn't really changed, as it is easy getting it encoded, it is harder to extract it.

What is also interesting, at least to some, is why Dolby Stereo became Dolby Surround. When four-channel sound was added to movies, Dolby Stereo was the name applied to it. Then along came VHS video tapes with stereo analog tracks, using Dolby B noise reduction. Many people equated Dolby Stereo with the Dolby B noise reduction on the linear stereo tracks. Finally, with VHS Hi-Fi coming along, the tapes had both linear stereo and Hi-Fi stereo. Ultimately, Dolby changed the name to Dolby Surround to end the confusion with the Dolby B noise reduction. The studios might have forced the name change. I don't know who ultimately decided, but it was changed.

Originally posted by dr_mal
A lot of people equate Dolby Digital with 5.1 surround sound. That's not accurate. Dolby Digital is just a method of transmitting audio (*). It can have anywhere from 1 to 6.1 channels. (although 6.1 is technically called THX EX, not Dolby Digital EX)

Actually not. DD can only be from 2.0 through 6.1. There is no 1.0 capability. Try to encode 1.0 with a Dolby Digital AC3 encoder. I know, I've looked, when doing DD for DVDs that I've made.

Obviously, in order to get mono, you just put the same audio info in the left and right DD2.0 channels.

BTW, there is also a place to tell the AC3 encoder that the 2.0 stereo audio is surround encoded. I do not know if extra bits are placed into the AC3 stream, all I know is that I select that option if the stereo audio even has the remote chance of having surround info. It doesn't hurt to say that it does, since if there isn't, the ProLogic circuitry will never find any. :)

Has anyone sent Don Perez at our "LEADERS IN HDTV" an e-mail to see if they will be picking up the HDTV feed from ESPN or only the NTSC feed.

I am also wondering if ESPN-HD and ESPN will be blacked out to Denver residence.

Shouldn't be blacked out, because the game is a sell out.

I just got a reply from Don Perez at channel 9 and he said that they tried to get the ESPN-HD feed of the Bronco game but could not. On the plus side, any of you with ESPN-HD will be able to see the game.

I did a rescan today on my Hd Tivo for locals (hopeing for abc channel 7 but no luck) and picked up the following channels from the outdoor antenna.

11-2 ACNTV - home shopping channel
11-3 iatv - seams to be programing from India
11-4 ABC - channel 8 ABC Cheyenne
11-5 Mas mundo - Spanish
11-8 The Tube - music videos

Signal was 68 peak. Time of day 3pm. Picture is okay but no sound on any channels. I am in southeast Aurora and have the antenna pointed northwest toward downtown.
Have any of you noticed any of these channels ?

Update. I found in the Cheyenne HD thread info about channel 11 in Denver.

I'm getting pretty severe breakups on all the 11- channels, and no audio as well.

On another note...

Anybody with a HD BEV setup care to invite me over to watch the World Cup Final between Canada and Finland on Tuesday at 5pm? Pretty please?

Question about comcast and d*.... What is minimum package needed from comcast to get basic hdtv channels, cost wise. Expect to keep direct but a pending move will probably drop me out of reception range for locals... Also, is comcast quaility of hdtv similar or equal to over the air. Thanks to all.

I notice that watching non HD content on ABC HD, the screen shakes, this is especially noticeable when you see text on screen, you can notice it shaking.

BileHazard, what receiver do you have?

Some have noticed this in the past (myself included).

I've got a Samsung.

It hasn't been an issue for me since about May. That's when the trees leafed out. Yes, just in time for the Stanley Finals.

I believe my STB is Motorola 6200. And this only happens on ABC HD, none of the other channels. So I was thinking it may just be the feed, and none of my equipment.

I've noticed the shaking on ABC on a Dish 6000 also. I belive it's got to do with the conversion from 720p to 1080i.

Thought I'd pass this along - Skip over at KDVR has upped their broadcast data rate. KDVR is now putting out 19.0 MB/s, and the football today looks very good for the most part. A little soft compared to the CBS signal, but all in all very good.

And the KDVR 5.1 sound is really good. Realistic crowd noise in the rear speakers and the announcers are clear and not to loud in the front center. I thought the picture was a little fuzzy looking and not as good as CBS, but overall pretty good.

I guess we can't really bad mouth FOX anymore for their 480p crummy transmissions! Nice to have another 'real' HD choice.

Originally posted by markdl
Thought I'd pass this along - Skip over at KDVR has upped their broadcast data rate. KDVR is now putting out 19.0 MB/s, and the football today looks very good for the most part. A little soft compared to the CBS signal, but all in all very good.
The bit rate is set by Fox Network isn't it? I thought with the new splicer, the station just passes the ATSC signal from network to their transmitter.

Kudos to KDVR for having the splicer ready to go on day one of Fox-HD, though.

Dennis,

Are you watching it native 720p or are you converting it from 720p to 1080i? That could be the fuzziness. If your cable/OTA receiver is converting it, then I'm sure that's the problem.

You might want to try setting your source box to output 720p and let your display do the conversion. The chip in your display is most likely much better than the crappy chip in most OTA/cable boxes.

I have an HD Tivo which is much better in all regards over my RCA DTC-100.

When I first got the Tivo, I tried various settings and settled on letting the Tivo output everything in 1080i format. It was better than letting my venerable RCA F38310 convert either 720p to 1080i or 480i to 540p.

720p may be the greatest thing since sliced bread for motion and sports, but I think there are a lot more TVs out there that can't do 720p natively (Plasma and projectors being exceptions). So, from my point of view, I wish everything was 1080i. Nevertheless, I am grateful for ABC, FOX and ESPN HD in 720p. Waaaaaay better than ED or SD TV.

Maybe, dr_mal, our Tivo expert, can lend his wisdom to this issue with Tivo.

Originally posted by santellavision
Dennis,

Are you watching it native 720p or are you converting it from 720p to 1080i? That could be the fuzziness. If your cable/OTA receiver is converting it, then I'm sure that's the problem.

You might want to try setting your source box to output 720p and let your display do the conversion. The chip in your display is most likely much better than the crappy chip in most OTA/cable boxes.

How do you go about changing the settings on your STB? How do you find out what its broadcasting at?

And another quick question, which HD stations broadcast in 1080i, and which in 720p. As I understand it, both are considered true HD and there really is no discernable difference in PQ between the two.

My RPT only does 1080i, and ESPN HD last night (Broncos vs Chiefs), the PQ was AMAZING, while the earlier games on FOX HD and CBS HD were great also, but no where near the clarity as ESPN HD. I'm guessing Comcast is compressing the FOX and CBS feeds, or is there another reason ESPN HD looks a bit better. As a previous poster has stated, I probably would watch grass grow on ESPN HD :)

BTW, I have a Hitachi 51F510

NBC, CBS, WB and PBS are 1080i. FOX (OTA) is 720p. On D*, Discovery and HDNET and HDNet movies are 1080i. ESPN is 720p. I am not sure what Bravo HD+ is, but it is probably 1080i as well because NBC owns it.

I was at the Broncos game but I did record it on my Tivo. Just checked and the ESPN PQ was stunning... equal to anything I have seen ever for a live football game. So the fuzziness I saw on FOX was clearly caused by their feed.

BileHazard, check out the HDTV Programming Forum for more information than you could ever want about issues such as these.

Having a fairly new HDTivo, I can indeed concur that the ESPNHD quality was great. I still preferred the view in the stadium last night as well. :-)
In addition, the early games on Fox and CBSW (rayders vs. pittsb) were good as well - eventhough my RPTV can't do 720p, the HDTivo did a decent job of upconverting to 1080i.

Question tho- if my attic antenna (inherited a Channel Master Advantage 3016 I think) can pick up the digital sides of KWGN and KDVR (as the HDTivo accepts antenna input/tuner) any chance that a "simple" repointing of the attic antenna could get me KCNC and KUSA in HD (without losing KDVR)?
my location = Roxborough Village, south of Chatfield Resv. not a pure line of sight to downtown from my roof, but very close due to elevation advantage.
I made an attempt at antenna repoint and only made things worse, but perhaps there is a reputable company who could attempt mounting the antenna on my roof? I'm sort of tired of messing around with the antenna myself without know if improved results are even possible.
advice appreciated.

::john

jexcel89, Welcome to the Denver thread!

Yeah, you should be able to get the downtown signals (probably not KMGH), especially if you put the antenna on your roof. Don't know what a 3016 is, but, if you are going to all the trouble to fiddle with an antenna, I would suggest you get a good new UHF anteanna. They only cost about $50. I have a large CM Yagi and get all OTA stations living 11 miles SE of downtown. CM has a good 8 way bow-tie and also gets good reviews.

A new locally produced HD program was on 9-1 this morning. It airs from 10-11am weekdays. It's called Colorado & Company. It's sort of a talk-variety-cooking-consumer type show originating from KUSA studios. Anyone else catch it?

Dennis - my HDTV can only accept a 1080i input, so I of course leave my HD TiVo set to always output 1080i. I caught a few minutes of Deuce Bigelow last night and was quite impressed. I especially like the fact that the Fox31 bug was halfways off my screen :) Local originated 4:3-stretched-to-16:9 looks like crap, so I don't watch any of it.

I'll have to TiVo Colorado & Company tomorrow -- thanks for the heads-up TommyK! If KUSA's starting to do some local content, they'll finally be at the level of HD commitment KRMA was four or five years ago ;)

It's kinda' bad that most RPTV's cannot accept 720p signals. Especially when the majority of sports is on ABC, ESPN & Fox all at 720p.

I was flippin' between 1080i & 720p on my Dish 921 in to my Marantz S2 (Native 720p) Projector. There's a clear difference in PQ letting the Marantz do the conversion with its internal Faroujda processing. It does a much better job than the 921's internal processing.

Watching 720p directly from the camera to truck to the Satellite to the Receiver. Then continues digital over DVI to a native 720p digital DLP display is breathtaking. 100% digital all the way with NO conversions!

I guess multiscan CRT TV's are a thing of the past. Some RPTV's when HD was first out could do native 720p and native 1080i, but the manufacturers were too cheap to keep it up. Actually, having native 720p support in HD CRT sets means that the guts are of better quality than those that convert everything to 1080i since 720p specs. are more advanced with a much higher scan ratio needed.

Satellavision and others:

I'm a newbie but I think these recent posts finally helps me figure out something really basic. I'm running a DVI from my Dish 811 into my Sammy 5685 DLP, which has a 720p native resolution but also accepts 1080i. In another thread, a guy told me that I should leave my Dish on 720p because that's my TV's native resolution, so it would always come out 720p anyway.

But I can see a clear difference between setting the dish to 720p and setting it to 1080i, at least on the 1080i programming like HDNet. I assume that the reason for that is the same as your recent post -- my TV does a better job than the receiver of converting the 1080i signal into 720p?

And am I right that unlike the dish, I should set my DVD player to 720p and not 1080i to avoid unnecessary conversion (actually the DVD player is connected to the tv by HDMI, so maybe it does that automatically?)?

Has anyone attempted to get a waiver from KUSA for the NBC HD feed that will be added to D* this week? If so, any success due to the low power DTV signal? Or will they refuse because of the analog coverage?

Also, if I decide to "move" my dish to my "ski chalet" (which was previously in a Pegasus market) on the website, are there any gotchas I need to be aware of? Will I lose the Denver locals and only be eligible for the national feeds? Can I have both? Will my account remain under D* or will they still attempt to convert it to Pegasus?

Thanks in advance. Just don't want to put myself into an even worse situation!

bikenski,

You would be blazing fresh trails to try "moving" your D* service to a past Pegasus-served area. The Pegasus disolution is too recent. If you do, let us know how it turns out. I assume you would lose Denver locals and gain the areas locals or DNS if it was a white area.

As far as NBC HD on D*, since we received the Olympics, I thought we might get it automagically (blanket waiver already in-place, other qualification rules I don't know about, or whatever reason). I'm just going to wait and see -- sounds like Thursday we'll be able to tell.

markdwest,
Are there DVD players that output 1080i now? In general, try all combinations and see which component does the better job. I was very surprised to see the CV-IC2 circuitry in my Sharp projector do a better job of deinterlacing than the Faroudja DCDi circuitry in my DVD player. I now leave the player switched to interlaced output.

With a Dish 811 connected to a Sammy DLP via a DVI cable, your best setting for HDTV setup on the Dish 811 is to match the output resolution to the source resolution. The Dish 811 scaler is poor. Let your Sammy do the scaling and you will optimize your HDTV viewing.

Unfortunately, you have to go 3 levels into the Dish 811 Menu to change the setup, so surfing between 2 HDTV sources, like the CBS and Fox OTA NFL games last Sunday, is a real pain in the butt.

BTW, the Fox broadcast PQ was as good or better than CBS once I set my 811 to match the 720p input. DD 5.1 sound was very good on both channels. However, Fox and CBS PQ were not as good/sharp as NBC-HD's (OTA channel 9.1) Olympics broadcasts or ESPN-HD's broadcast of the Bronco game.

Not sure why, but CBS OTA HD has been on the soft side ever since first I viewed it during last January's NFL playoffs. Even the U. S. Open tennis coverage this weekend was a little soft. At least when compared to NBC's Olympic HD PQ, which is my new standard of comparison for OTA HD.

Mark,

The others beat me to some answers. Basically, let whichever box do the best conversion. With OTA/Sat boxes, it usually the weaker link. With DVD players, it's a tossup. If you have a good upscaling player like a Denon 5900, Pioneer 59 etc. Then let the DVD player do the internal digital conversion/scaling to 720p (the native of your display).

If you have a cheaper player that doesn't do internal upscaling, then use 480i over HDMI. You're lucky, HDMI, opposed to DVI will allow 480i output. Set your player to 480i and let the display do the conversion. Also, you can try setting the DVD player to other resolutions. But sometimes the display's internal processer will be bypassed when it see's anything progressive.

The other thing that CEB states is correct. It's a pain to have to change the 811's output from 1080i to 720 for different channels. I just leave my Dish 921 on 1080i. Once I decide that I'm going to watch ESPNHD or FOXHD for a game or show, I will make the effort to switch it. It's worth the few button pushes.

The bottom line is try different settings and see what works for you. Some changes may be subtle and other changes may be huge.

[i]
markdwest,
Are there DVD players that output 1080i now? In general, try all combinations and see which component does the better job. I was very surprised to see the CV-IC2 circuitry in my Sharp projector do a better job of deinterlacing than the Faroudja DCDi circuitry in my DVD player. I now leave the player switched to interlaced output. [/B]

Yes, there are players that output 1080i, but not many. I have a Samsung htds1000 system running into my 5685. HDMI to HDMI. The DVD player has a switch on the back for upconverting either to 720p or 1080i. But the DVD manual says that if the connection is HDMI, the DVD player and the TV will "automatically" adjust to the right connection. Actually since it's a Samsung manual, it says something like "connection automatically to be adjust by being TV and DVD." Don't know if that's true or not.

Originally posted by santellavision

The other thing that CEB states is correct. It's a pain to have to change the 811's output from 1080i to 720 for different channels. I just leave my Dish 921 on 1080i. Once I decide that I'm going to watch ESPNHD or FOXHD for a game or show, I will make the effort to switch it. It's worth the few button pushes.

Thanks to all; this is very helpful stuff. I might try to program my Harmony Remote to change the output in one keystroke, but there is such a delay in Dish's set up menu (especially hitting cancel to get back AFTER I've made the change) that it might involve more fooling around with delays, more time, and more pointing the remote while it does its thing than it's worth.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bikenski


Also, if I decide to "move" my dish to my "ski chalet" (which was previously in a Pegasus market) on the website, are there any gotchas I need to be aware of? Will I lose the Denver locals and only be eligible for the national feeds? Can I have both? Will my account remain under D* or will they still attempt to convert it to Pegasus?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to info at dbsforums.com, Pegasus is a dead issue and will not trouble your move to your "vacation home". It is entirely possible you will be eligible to receive DNS and the Denver locals so long as your service address is in an area where OTA reception is below the acceptable level. Check the D* website. Lots of us have D* service at our weekend retreat in the mountains, but continue to get mail/billing at a second address down here on the flats. In fact, I made the decison on where my weekend home would be located based on the criteria for DNS/local eligibility.

Search dbsforums.com for just how easy such a move is. Or send me an email with your questions.

I live in Stonegate, right near Chambers & E-470. I've just hooked up a Mitsubishi DLP w/ an internal tuner & a Winegard SquareShooter SS-2000 (amplified version). The antenna is mounted approximately 23' off the ground and is aimed in the direction of 300deg from North.

These are the channels I picked up last evening. I'm not sure what some of them are (no labels).

2-1 KWGN-DT WB2
4-1 KCNC-DT CBS
6-1 KRMA-DT PBS
9-1 KUSA-DT NBC
11-2 ? iTV
11-3 ? iAtv
11-4 ? ?
11-5 ? ?
11-8 ? ?
12-1 KBDI-DT PBS
12-2 KBDI-KI PBS
12-3 KBDI-YO PBS
31-1 KDVR-DT FOX
53-1 KWHD-DT FOX

What does channel 7 broadcast on? This is ABC, correct? It didn't pick this one up on the autoscan. My TV doesn't give me signal strength indications but the pictures were perfect on all except for 53-1 and one of the "11" stations (was some sort of music videos if I remember correctly).

-rob

Originally posted by rmeredith
What does channel 7 broadcast on? This is ABC, correct? It didn't pick this one up on the autoscan.
ooh ooh can I play?

Channel 7? What's a Channel 7?

ABC? We have one of those in Denver? I thought they gave up their station a few years ago :confused:

:D

Sorry Rob - the serious answer is that Channel 7's a joke. There I go again.

KMGH (ABC Denver) "broadcasts" their digital channel on channel 17-1 and 17-2 (-1 is their HD signal, -2 I believe is their SD signal). Only problem is they've got a very low power transmitter on - get this - the roof of their 6-story building downtown. Contrast that to the other stations transmitting low power from downtown (NBC, CBS, PBS) who are on top of a 40-story building. Unless you live to the southwest of downtown, where there aren't any taller buildings blocking KMGH-DT's signal, you're out of luck.

Comcast carries KMGH-DT and I'm assuming D* will add KMGH-DT next summer when they launch their HD LIL service.

ooh ooh can I play?ROTHFLMAO!!!!

OH, nice... 6-story building huh? Well, I'm not suprised that I couldn't pick it up then. That's really disappointing - No ABC (!) in DENVER?! Anyone I can email and talk politely to about this pitiful situation?

I have D* right now - and will pick up their HD services after they get all the locals, at least.

-rob

Anyone I can email and talk politely to about this pitiful situation?
Now that's even funnier!!!

Rob:

Do a search on this thread for KMGH. You will have enough reading for at least a couple of days!

But, hey, they do have new CEO and they did stop stretching their non-HD programming to fill the screen. So, go ahead and email them and 'politely' talk to them. At this point, I personally would have difficulty being polite!

;-) that was sarcasm of course...

That the FCC would allow Denver's ABC affiliate to broadcast at such a pitiful signal strength just blows my mind, but with Michael Powell sitting in the driver's seat and the FCC & SEC bowing to all sorts of corporate mergers and newfangled monopolies (the big media giants say, "we're going to do this..." and the oversight boards roll over and play dead) I can see why they are a lame duck organization.

Dan

Originally posted by rmeredith
That's really disappointing - No ABC (!) in DENVER?! Anyone I can email and talk politely to about this pitiful situation? Sorry it took so long to respond -- finishing laughing just now.:D

Go here (http://bricklin.org/AVSForum/TimelineF.htm) and click on KMGH for contact info.

Looks like the LCG website was updated recently with the August events. And they added the following comment:The Lake Cedar Group anticipates beginning construction of the new tower sometime this fall with completion sometime next year, making high definition television available to all Denver viewers.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/technology/3697133/detail.html

Wow, for a moment there I thought there might be some startling news about OTA DTV, like broadcast antenna relocated to Republic Plaza or power increased 10-fold. But, alas the news on the link isn't really news. Someone reported a week or so ago that KMGH-DT was available on Comcast.

Yeah, the news about KMGH on Comcast was all over the Denver Comcast thread. Not sure off hand if anybody here noticed (or CAREd - hardeharhar)

So now they have 830,000 more reasons not to boost their OTA signal anytime soon. Great.

Comcast Cable is the only service in Denver able to offer ABC programming in high-definition.

Bwahahahaha

Not even KMGH can make that claim!

(Couldn't resist...)

I see that NBC-HD E&W showed up this morning in the DirecTV channel guide. I was hoping KUSA might allow us to get the HD channels, since they are only broadcasting low power.

Anybody have any information if/how we can get NBC HD or do we have to ask for waivers?

Does anyone own and have an opinion of an RCA HD ready TV model mm32110? How about the LG LST-3510A OTA High Def TV Tuner and DVD player?

Is DISH going to offer NBC-HD too?

Are LCG's legal woes finally over, or is it just wishful thinking that they'll be able to start building soon?

I think you're gonna have to ask for a waiver. Shiva is pretty specific about who can receive what.

NBC HD isn't showing up on my D* account page, so I don't think it will be activated in the KUSA viewing area without going through the waiver hassle. Has anyone tried calling yet to see if they'll grant a digital waiver due to the low-power signal?

Originally posted by bikenski
NBC HD isn't showing up on my D* account page, so I don't think it will be activated in the KUSA viewing area without going through the waiver hassle. Has anyone tried calling yet to see if they'll grant a digital waiver due to the low-power signal?
It is likely that the strength of OTA signal in any given market will not be taken under consideration as a reason to grant waivers. The availability of NBC HD on D* will probably follow the same pattern as the CBS HD feed and pending FOX HD feed, i.e. only those subscribers whose billing address falls inside markets where NBC owns the local affiliate will receive consideration for the national HD feed.

I called D* and initiated the waiver process for KUSA -- we'll see what happens. I was told I would have to pay $1.50 for the West coast feed and get both the analog (ch 383) along with the HD (ch 83) even though all I wanted was the HD (or $2.25 for both E/W). Most likely the same process if/when D* gets ABC HD E/W.

She also mentioned Fox HD should come on automatically for me (once D* starts it up) since KDVR is O&O.

I was looking at TitanTV and noticed that it is listing KMGH's news as HD. Did I miss something somewhere, or is it a mistake on the website?

Originally posted by squidboy
I was looking at TitanTV and noticed that it is listing KMGH's news as HD. Did I miss something somewhere, or is it a mistake on the website?

You did not miss anything. It is a mistake.

Ron, I called tonight and got the same information you did.

It would be nice if KUSA would give us the same treatment as the O&O stations since they are only low power.

Oh, I forgot, KMGH said the tower would be up by now. :D

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
That the FCC would allow Denver's ABC affiliate to broadcast at such a pitiful signal strength just blows my mind, but with Michael Powell sitting in the driver's seat and the FCC & SEC bowing to all sorts of corporate mergers and newfangled monopolies (the big media giants say, "we're going to do this..." and the oversight boards roll over and play dead) I can see why they are a lame duck organization.

Dan Oh, please...

Since when has the FCC ever mandated the signal strength of a broadcaster? They can broadcast at 5 watts if they want, it just usually doesn't make sense to reduce their viewing area like that.

It could have been a CBS mistake, but the first ten minutes or so of CSI on KCNC tonight was in HD on 4-1; too bad the next 15 minutes or was 4:3 SD. It eventually flipped back to HD in mid-sentence (actually making for a very nice before/after HD comparison.)

Do they actually have to remember to flip a switch back after every 4:3 commercial break?

Originally posted by kucharsk
Oh, please...

Since when has the FCC ever mandated the signal strength of a broadcaster? They can broadcast at 5 watts if they want, it just usually doesn't make sense to reduce their viewing area like that.
Umm...when they said the digital coverage area has to cover at least 98% of their analog coverage area? Kinda implies a mandated signal strength, no?

Originally posted by kucharsk
It could have been a CBS mistake, but the first ten minutes or so of CSI on KCNC tonight was in HD on 4-1; too bad the next 15 minutes or was 4:3 SD. It eventually flipped back to HD in mid-sentence (actually making for a very nice before/after HD comparison.)

Do they actually have to remember to flip a switch back after every 4:3 commercial break?
Short answer - yes, but I thought they had automated their HD switching at KCNC. You should've seen them a few years ago -- they routinely forgot to flip the switch when it was a 100% manual process. They're much better now.

The beauty of the Fox splicer system is that the affiliate doesn't ever have to flip a switch -- the splicer is controlled by the network.

I've been noticing some inconsistencies with KRMA of late.

Depending on the show, my Sammy has been giving the old 'Searching for signal' message on channel 6-1.

Signal strength has been holding at 20-36% (which has been 'normal') but it just won't lock.

But some shows come in just fine. The problem was most recently seen (or not seen as it were) last night - 7 pm - Niagra Falls. Could this show have been a 'network' feed as opposed to a local?

On the other hand, signal strength for channel 6-3 is still holding in that 20% range, and I get a lock on it with no problem.

Hmm.

Oh, and what ever happened to 6-2?

As I crawl back into my cave and ponder the woes of the new world... :)

Off topic but I know you guys would know:

I have the Star Wars "Faces" Laserdiscs that I want transferred to DVD. I don't have a Laserdisc player. Are there any places in Denver that will do this for me?

Thanks,
Jason

Probably not as it's too fine a line between "backing them up" and pirating in the eyes of professional video houses.

If you know someone privately with a really good (ie clean composite video output) laserdisc player and a good capture card, plus all the DVD mastering and editing suites to clean up, tweak, and assemble all of the components necessary to do such a transfer then you may be able to do it. It takes quite a bit of money for all the necessary parts and software.

If you don't mind limiting your playback to a computer then VC-1 (aka VC-9) or MPEG-4 AVC High Profile may get you better compression results than MPEG-2 since they work more efficiently at lower bitrates necessary for placing the files on a DVD with a maximum bitrate just under 10 Megabits/sec for both video and audio streams. You could then compress your 2 channel PCM audio with full bitrate DTS rather than Dolby Digital. Unless DVD-ROM data can be stored at higher bitrates than that if you're using a computer drive rather than a table top DVD player.

Dan,

I was wondering about that. I figured that since I own the source discs and the final discs that it wouldn't matter where it was done.

What's so hot about the 'Faces' SW disks? The new restored transfers are coming out Tues. I've read great things about them.

The Star Wars Laserdiscs (Faces or Definitive Collection) are the best format that the original movies are recorded on. The new transfers are of the special edition version with numerous changes.

I would like both on DVD.

The reason some of us want to archive our laserdiscs is because Mr. Lucas f-cked up Star Wars when he started messing around with his digital crayons. Greedo shooting first! Ha, that's a good one! :D

Dan

P.S. jcardona, I just edited my last response above.

I've noticed som changes in KRMA as well. My Samsung 160 shows 6-1, 6-3 and 80-3 from the D* guide. The 6-3 has no program info on the guide and is where I now find the HD programming. 80-3 has the HD programming at night after 10:00(?). I haven't seen any HD on 6-1 lately.

Dan,

Thanks for the info.
I would need to buy a laserdisc player and all the necessary hardward and software to do it.

I purchased the discs so I can have the originals but I never got around to buying a laserdisc player. I'm running out of space in the equipment rack.

There are a few used Pioneer laserdisc players floating around the internet for sale. If you look at the Elite line don't get a CLD-59. It has noisy video playback. You want a CLD-79 or CLD-99. Very good players with top grade auto-side flippers and much better video output.

I am seeing the 6-3 channel with no guide info also on my Samsung 360.

They must be doing something with the equipment at the station.

Maybe we can get an update?

sorry if this has been covered already but there is just way too much to look through here so im hoping someone can help me out. im getting a new hdtv and i would like an hd pvr if possible. seems the best choice there might be the DirecTivo IF I can get the HD channels OTA. I live in LoDo at 15th and Blake, does anyone know if I could get the HD channels OTA with an indoor antenna here? or am I better off going with comcast and either holding off or going with some other PVR?

thanks a lot

flerve-
The key for your HD OTA reception is going to be line of sight to the top of the Republic Plaza building where channels 4,9 and 6 are sending their HD signals from. Channel 7 is sending their signal fron the top of their 4 story building at 6th and Speer. It is a very weak signal and there may be buildings between you that block the signal. Fox 31 sends their new HD signal signal from Lookout Mtn. which is kind of the opposite direction from the downtown stations.
I'll let others tout the benefits of the DirecTv TIVO, it has some huge fans.
There is also the cable option, but they do not offer the wonder of HD Tivo. The link for local cable forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=293562&goto=newpost
Also, check out the Denver DTV info site provded by AVS member santellavision, it is very helpful!
http://www.denverdtv.info/

flerve,
If your getting a new set, doesn't it have an OTA tuner built in? (Don't they all by now?) If so, I would just get a silver sensor indoor antenna and test it. My guess is you should get all the stations. But, who knows?

And, you don't have to be line-of-sight, but it helps! I'm way up here in Genesee and even with a huge hill in front of me, I can still receive signals from downtown.

Hello all,

I just contacted Tina Montoya at our local Denver NBC affiliate re: granting a waiver to receive HD NBC from D*. Here is her reply:

Thank you for your e-mail requesting a waiver from our station to receive distant network programming of our television network delivered to you via satellite. We are not in a position to grant your request since you are within our DMA.

As you may know Jefferson County recently approved our zoning request to building our new high powered facility that will allow our viewers to receive KUSA in high definition. However, due to prior litigation brought by the City of Golden, we are now waiting for Judge Jackson to review this approval. It will take eight to ten month for this facility to be brought on line once we are allowed to break ground.

Comcast cable is now carrying local channels, including KUSA in HDTV on Channel 16. We hope that both Dish and DirecTV will carry local HD programming soon.

Hope this explanation will be helpful.

xxxxxxx
well--if any of you have any other ideas on how we can get the D* HD NBC feed, please post--otherwise, it looks like we're out of luck.

N123

N123,

thanks for your posting regarding KUSA HD waiver info via Tina Montoya.
I too called DirecTV over the weekend asking for waiver, and I expect similar bad news myself someday.
However-

I am OUTRAGED at KUSA's answer to either (A) switch your television provider or (B) wait for 8 to 10 months thanks to the sCARE lawsuit!
This smacks of back room bargaining when (in effect) KUSA gives someone permission (a waiver to receive HD non-OTA) ONLY IF you pay Comcast the $$$ instead of DirecTV.
and tells all other (non-Comcast) customers "it's the judge's/lawsuits" fault.
Unreal and unfair!

Why can't we consumers find some lawyer to file a class action lawsuit against KUSA to give non-Comcast people (waivers) the right to purchase NBC HD from ANY available method?
heck, we probably should sue the FCC for their allowance of "exclusive content contracts" to provider A, leaving provider B's customers totally out of the loop.

I'm not sure who I despise more- the FCC, sCARE, KUSA, comcast, etc....

::john

I just got off the phone with Ms. Montoya. After reading the above posts I called to proactively lobby for the Waiver which DirecTV submitted on my behalf today.
I got the same response as in the above messages. I urge anyone who is planning to request the HD feed from NBC to e-mail/write the Station President/General Manager....Mr. Ogden. I have done so and will let you know what happens.

I certainly hope that Channel 9 understands that there are a number of loyal customers who already PAY DirecTV for local channels and as PAYING customers we should not be denied a Waiver. They will certainly alienate customers by being so intractable.

More to follow.

MDM-Boulder

And after all the help we gave them in the tower hearings! We should get some kind of Thank You for that.

I also sent Mr. Ogden an email. Up in Greeley, I can't get their low power signal and comcast doesn't offer anything in HD. Hopefully he takes that into concideration!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by N123
Hello all,

I just contacted Tina Montoya at our local Denver NBC affiliate re: granting a waiver to receive HD NBC from D*. Here is her reply:

Thank you for your e-mail requesting a waiver from our station to receive distant network programming of our television network delivered to you via satellite. We are not in a position to grant your request since you are within our DMA...............Comcast cable is now carrying local channels, including KUSA in HDTV on Channel 16. We hope that both Dish and DirecTV will carry local HD programming soon.

Hope this explanation will be helpful.
......................
N123 [/QUOTE

KUSA, "The 'Leader' in HDTV", along with KMGH "The 'First' in Colorado in HDTV"! Have no fear folks, I have a letter from the lawyer for KMGH which states they should be on the air in full power by the end of this summer ( I think that is Wednesday, so I plan to scan the signals from Lookout and see it there on Wed. night, after all, they wouldn't lie to the public would they??).

Have I mentioned this before????? What a bunch of self serving ba$tard$! (Probably no more than a few hundred times in this forum).

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
:mad:

Originally posted by santellavision
And after all the help we gave them in the tower hearings! We should get some kind of Thank You for that.
You already got the thanks from them, don't you remember, they gave you a tour of KUSA HD studios. What were you expecting????? Plain and simple, WE WERE USED! That is why I quit helping. :mad:

I hope your comment was in jest and you really didn't think they would cut us a break as a thank you.
:cool:

Originally posted by N123
well--if any of you have any other ideas on how we can get the D* HD NBC feed, please post--otherwise, it looks like we're out of luck.

If you "move" your D* receiver up to your "ski chalet" in Summit County or Vail for the winter, you won't need to obtain a waiver from KUSA (or any other network affiliate.) ;)

Originally posted by mdm_boulder
snip... I urge anyone who is planning to request the HD feed from NBC to e-mail/write the Station President/General Manager....Mr. Ogden. I have done so and will let you know what happens.

That is what I originally did. It was forwarded to Ms. Montoya and i got the same (canned) response. I replied with the following:

On Sep 20, 2004, at 12:21 PM, Montoya, Tina wrote:

Thank you for your e-mail requesting a waiver from our station to receive distant network programming of our television network delivered to you via satellite. We are not in a position to grant your request since you are within our DMA.

Thank you for the reply. I know I am in your DMA (Grade B). That is why the waiver was requested.

As you may know Jefferson County recently approved our zoning request to building our new high powered facility that will allow our viewers to receive KUSA in high definition. However, due to prior litigation brought by the City of Golden, we are now waiting for Judge Jackson to review this approval. It will take eight to ten month for this facility to be brought on line once we are allowed to break ground.

I have been following this. Once the facility is complete, I will have no problem receiving your signal since have purchased the best rooftop antenna that I could. Sadly, this has not given me a useable KUSA digital signal.

Comcast cable is now carrying local channels, including KUSA in HDTV. We hope that both Dish and DirecTV will carry local HD programming soon.

Comcast is not even close to offering HD in Fort Collins. Latest word is that they will not offer the locals in HD until after the tower is complete, as they use antennas to pick up Denver channels for cable. I have NO way to receive KUSA digital, even after great effort and expense (not to mention the not very attractive antenna on our roof).

I understand that your company feels as though there is no incentive to offer customer waivers, but I believe in the spirit of true customer service, KUSA should reconsider based on the current situation. Please consider the following:

1. As you know, your low-power signal from downtown Denver does not reach Fort Collins.

2. My waiver request was for digital only. My only interest is in the HD programs that NBC is offering. I have no interest in Los Angeles news casts or other local SD programming. I receive KUSA over DirecTV and will continue to watch Denver news and local programming.

3. The waiver would be short-term. Once the tower is complete, I will cancel my DirecTV locals, which will cancel the LA HD feed(s).

4. The waiver would grant the west coast feed only, which means all prime time programming comes in two hours later than here. This is inconvenient, but I feel better than nothing.

5. As I said, I understand your position, but please try to understand the position of your customer. I currently have HD programming from ESPNHD, HDNET, HDNET Movies, BravoHD, HBOHD, Discovery TheaterHD, CBS (KGWN and DirecTV West feed), WB (KWGN), and FOX (KDVR). My choices for HD are increasing. With that, my desire to watch SD is diminishing. The NBC shows are of less interest because they are in SD. Once the HD is online from your new facility, some habits will have changed. I have traditionally been a Law & Order fan, but with all of the HD episodes, I'm watching the CSI shows much more frequently.

6. The current state of HD broadcasting in Denver is below what it should be for our market size. The temporary broadcasting meets certain requirements, but excludes those of us in Fort Collins and other northern locales. Although locally, KUSA has invested more than any station in HD, that is of no use people outside of the immediate Denver area. If there was ANY other way for me to receive KUSA digital broadcasting, your position of not granting waivers would be more understandable to the consumer.

Hope this explanation will be helpful.

If your company truly means to be helpful with its explanation, it would consider the reasoning I've presented here. I realize that my "I may not watch your programming" point may seem silly and of little consequence to KUSA. However, I'm not trying to present this as a threat. It is only meant to clarify that I believe true customer service would be attained by granting temporary waivers until Denver HD situation is rectified. I know I would be a more loyal NBC viewer than if I am denied HD programming for the next year or so.

Sincerely,
XXX XXXXX


============
I'm not expecting a quick change of heart from them, but maybe there will be a cumulative effect that will lead to change.

jpco,

You're note was a little more in depth than mine, but my email to Mr. Ogden basically had the same message. Here's hoping they have a change of heart. If not, I may fall back on the "chalet" in Winter Park.

Is anyone experiencing any audio trouble with our new ABC HD feed? I'll have audio, and it will periodically go out for a few seconds then return. Very annoying.

It doesn't do this on any other channels (HD or otherwise), so I don't think it's a connection issue (push-on digital coax from converter to receiver).

Thanks in advance!

Everyone is having problems with the ABC feed. Of course, you use the word "new" like they've done something to improve their OTA signal, and I'm pretty sure that hasn't happened. There's more discussion over in the Comcast thread, where email responses from KMGH have said that they hope to have it fixed by the next MNF game.

Beamer - yup...been that way for at least the last couple of years. Please send Rick Craddock (cheif engineer at KMGH) an email detailing the programs that were dropping out last night. His email is Rick_Craddock@kmgh.com - the more email he gets on this, the faster it will get fixed.

Hello. I am a new member to this thread. I live in Broomfield and I am having major problems with getting CBS. I have VOOM and when I first got it, CBS quit working altogther. I switched back to my Panasonic digital recievor and now it works. The problem is that when their is a live HD football game, the picture comes in on and off. I switched back to the VOOM recievor and it now works, but the same thing keeps happening. During live HD events, the picture and sound continue to go in and out. Has anyone else had this problem? I am getting the following over the air digital stations:
WB 2-1
CBS (kind of) 4-1
NBC 9-1
PBS 12-1,6-1, and channel 11-1
FOX 31-1
I can't get ABC. I am at 128th and Federal.
Thanks for your help.
T.

What is the true story with the local tower? Are they going to build it or not. According to the Denverdtv web site, Care was shot down. Why haven't they begun construction? Having full blown HDTV signals would be nice so I could take down my antenae off the roof.
Tim.

Welcome Tim!

What kind of OTA antenna are your using? Receiving OTA DTV here in Denver is a game of inches. Try moving your antenna a bit each way and see what happens. I even notice that with their low-power, weather, trees, just about anything effects the reception I get.

Latest on the tower is... It was approved (again) by JeffCo, now it has to go back to the judge who ordered injunction to stop construction. He should sign off on it any time now and then... Anybody... It should be back on track for construction to commence. But of course, sCARE will no doubt try another cockamamy lawsuit to try to hold it up again.

He should sign off on it any time now and then... Anybody... It should be back on track for construction to commence. But of course, sCARE will no doubt try another cockamamy lawsuit to try to hold it up again.

The tower construction will start if and only if the judge dismisses the injunction and the lawsuit. I do not think that this is a slam dunk. The judge did put himself in a corner by finding that the commissioners originally did not act in bad faith, however, this alone does not guarantee a result which finds in favor of Jefferson County in the lawsuit brought by the City of Golden and (s)Care.

Don

What possible grounds could he have to stop it? The Commissions gave their OK and completely answered the Judge's request.

I know Ms. Carney might think otherwise with her "Mother-of-All-Opening-Statements" she has planned. I just hope the judge doesn't want to waste his precious time even listening to her babble. Just a quick... wham-bam-no-thank-you-mame. Next case and oh, Anybody know what time is CSI is on again? ;)

Originally posted by santellavision
What possible grounds could he have to stop it? The Commissions gave their OK and completely answered the Judge's request.

I know Ms. Carney might think otherwise with her "Mother-of-All-Opening-Statements" she has planned. I just hope the judge doesn't want to waste his precious time even listening to her babble. Just a quick... wham-bam-no-thank-you-mame. Next case and oh, Anybody know what time is CSI is on again? ;)

I'm with you, Ernie. CSI NY is 9:00 tonite on 35 & 11:00 KCBS. CSI-Lost Wages dead alien episode is on tomorrow at 8 right before W/O a trace.

To answer your question, I've learned that judges do what they want in their courtrooms. That's all I'm saying.

Later,
Don

Originally posted by paintit77
Hello. I am a new member to this thread. I live in Broomfield and I am having major problems with getting CBS. I have VOOM and when I first got it, CBS quit working altogther. I switched back to my Panasonic digital recievor and now it works. The problem is that when their is a live HD football game, the picture comes in on and off. I switched back to the VOOM recievor and it now works, but the same thing keeps happening. During live HD events, the picture and sound continue to go in and out. Has anyone else had this problem? I am getting the following over the air digital stations:
WB 2-1
CBS (kind of) 4-1
NBC 9-1
PBS 12-1,6-1, and channel 11-1
FOX 31-1
I can't get ABC. I am at 128th and Federal.
Thanks for your help.
T.

santellavision is right. If you can try rotating the ant. a bit to see what happens. Some of the stations are coming from Look Out Mountain & a few from down town. I had to raise my ant. & re-rotate it somewhat to get everything. Now & then there are a few times I have reception problems but not many. If the signal strength is right at 80 or so you get allot of drop outs. Some times it's the stations themselves that have the problem. Just like yesterday. Channel 2 was out all day for me with my Voom reciever. I'm sure they had to reset there comp. for the PSIP table. It's happened a few times in the last months. Without the PSIP data in the stream hose of us with Voom boxes can't see channel 2. Here is a good forum & thread for Voom customers if you don't know about it. http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=11887&page=1&pp=15

Main forum for Voom. http://www.satelliteguys.us/forumdisplay.php?f=24

I just read that the FCC is trying to get legislation passed that will mandate the total end of NTSC OTA broadcasting by '09.

That's funny, we might not even have one full-power OTA DTV station by then. ;)

It would be funny .. if it wasn't so pitifully sad. :(

Originally posted by santellavision
.......FCC is trying to............mandate the total end of NTSC OTA broadcasting by '09.

That's funny, we might not even have one full-power OTA DTV station by then. ;)
Boy, you are soooooo wrong on that one. I will bet you a $1 that either KWGN or KDVR will run at least ONE hour long full power test before then.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by santellavision
What possible grounds could he have to stop it? The Commissions gave their OK and completely answered the Judge's request.

I know Ms. Carney might think otherwise with her "Mother-of-All-Opening-Statements" she has planned. I just hope the judge doesn't want to waste his precious time even listening to her babble. Just a quick... wham-bam-no-thank-you-mame. Next case and oh, Anybody know what time is CSI is on again? ;)
I called the Jefferson County Courts to get Judge Jackson's case date only to be told it hasn't been set yet.

For those of you who haven't seen the following link check it out.

Glad to see that the news media is not biased. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Lawood
For those of you who haven't seen the following link check it out.



Yea I know one of my AVSFORUM quotes made it in there to. I also remember some scolding going on because of them being unprofessional at times. I may be wrong but the way I see they were the ones who are stalling. Interviews with potential commissioners indicated they were not in favor of the towers.
To bring up something that happened after the fact is pretty low down, but then some people will go to any extreme.

What a bunch of BS! They just can't stop whining. And my favorite is...Please reconsider your decision.I'm sure they'll change their decision and monkeys might fly out their butts too!

Hey Couch Potato, thanks for the input. Thanks for everyones input. I will try it. At this point I am really gun shy about moving the antanae. I heard a rumor that Pete Coors and Jake Jabs are fitting most of the bill for sCARE. Is this true? If so, no more Coors beer and No More American Furniture Warehouse. I will probably miss American Furniture more than Coors beer becuase I don't even drink beer. Anyway, I am glad to see that I am not the only one in Colorado with VOOM. I love it. My antanae is the one that came with VOOM. I am not sure what it is called. I think it is a Winegard or something like that. It has the same shape as an airplane wing. I am having no problems with channel 2. I get all of them really well except the most important one, Channel 4 CBS. CSI Miami totally rocks in HD. I have friends come over and they can't beleive it. Especially the beach scenes. HD is the bomb.
T.

Originally posted by paintit77
My antanae is the one that came with VOOM. I think we found your problem! With low-power OTA DTV, you really need a good (big) antenna. I'm pretty sure the one they gave you free is the problem along with alignment.

It's more than just throwing one up on the roof. You can ask any of us, we've spent hours and hours dialing it in to get reception from any or all of the stations. Not to mention getting the best wire and not using splitters etc.

Originally posted by paintit77
I heard a rumor that Pete Coors and Jake Jabs are fitting most of the bill for sCARE. Is this true?

I haven't heard anything myself on the source of sCARE funding, but I've been wondering myself. The links to the rag above stated about $5 million was spent by LCG for the towers, so I'd guess that sCARE has spent a similar amount (odd they didn't state it). They stated on their website that it represents 10,000 residents, which probably boils down to about 3,500 households or almost $1,500 spent per household. Of those, only some feel 'threatened' by the towers, so why wasn't the money spent to move to an area that they didn't feel threatened by - maybe close to the flats? Amazing...

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
The links to the rag above stated about $5 million was spent by LCG for the towers, so I'd guess that sCARE has spent a similar amount (odd they didn't state it). I doubt that sCARE has spent anywhere near as much as LCG. Junk science is readily available at no charge. Printing flyers is cheap. Most "activists" have some kind of undemanding day job which leaves them plenty of time to indulge in crusades like this. And don't forget that the taxpayers of Golden are having to foot the legal bills for the latest round.

Yeah, that really irks me. And its too flippin' ironic that my Golden tax dollars are helping them. It must bring a smile to their sCAREy faces!

Coors & Jabs?? Sounds like a Dan Rather scoop! Questions & comments...I watched CSI OTA from KCNC last night and it wasn't 5.1; why?

The KDVR feed of the Tampa Bay Yucks and the Seattle Seahags last Sunday was so bad it was unwatchable, fortunately saving me from a very boring game. But it was the only pm HD game -- anybody else have trouble getting decent reception?

I get KUSA OTA but I sent a polite email to KUSA asking them to consider approving waivers for D* customers outside their OTA range. Has anyone been approved yet?

Originally posted by paintit77
Hey Couch Potato, thanks for the input. Thanks for everyones input. I will try it. At this point I am really gun shy about moving the antanae. I heard a rumor that Pete Coors and Jake Jabs are fitting most of the bill for sCARE. Is this true? If so, no more Coors beer and No More American Furniture Warehouse. I will probably miss American Furniture more than Coors beer becuase I don't even drink beer. Anyway, I am glad to see that I am not the only one in Colorado with VOOM. I love it. My antanae is the one that came with VOOM. I am not sure what it is called. I think it is a Winegard or something like that. It has the same shape as an airplane wing. I am having no problems with channel 2. I get all of them really well except the most important one, Channel 4 CBS. CSI Miami totally rocks in HD. I have friends come over and they can't beleive it. Especially the beach scenes. HD is the bomb.
T.

I have the stealth ant too. Like I said, I just raised it 10 feet & now It's ok. You can call back Voom & tell them your NOT getting all of the locals & you would like a better Ant. They have installed better ones around the country for nothing. browse around the other forum to see what other people have have done to get there locals.

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
I watched CSI OTA from KCNC last night and it wasn't 5.1; why?
I don't think CBS produces any of their primetime programming in in 5.1. When they did the Grammies last(?) year, they were in 5.1 and KCNC was able to pass it through.

Any new NBC shows this season will be in 5.1. ABC (for the handful of people who can get it) does 5.1 with added dropouts at no extra charge by our good friends at KMGH. :p

When I had Direct TV, I had a much larger antanae on my roof that is the second largest one that Radio Shack sells. It was actually worse than the stealth at bringing in CBS. I am almost positive it is either my wire or the Tuner used by Motorola. Someday, we will get Full Power in Denver and that problem will go away. This may seem crazy, but I watched CSI Las Vegas a couple of weeks ago and it came in Dolby 5.1. That was the only time it has ever come in 5.1. The only thing I have seen on CBS in 5.1 are NFL games.

I thought the Fox splicer system was supposed to be foolproof, but "North Shore" on KDVR-DT isn't coming through in HD. Anyone know if this problem is on the network side, or if KDVR is bypassing the splicer for some reason?

And to add to my local affiliate complaints for the night, KMGH isn't passing 5.1 for MNF, so apparently they haven't corrected their audio issues yet.

For the brief time I was flipping channels, "North Shore" was in HD on Comcast (towards the end). Was that the case OTA? If so, then they probably had to make a manual switch, or they fixed whatever was broken.

But KMGH fixed the dropout issue, didn't they?

KCNC seems to be having DTV problems lately. For the past week or so their signal strength has been down a few points from where it has been for the previous 8 months and, for the first time, I'm seeing drop-outs. Then tonight, they lost their 4-01 ID and are back to Channel 35. Haven't seen that happen since about last February or March.

Bronco game HD yesterday was OK, but no where near the clarity, sharpness, and color saturation of Fox's HD game. Fox has come through "big time". Even the pre-game show is HD and better HD quality than Sports Center on ESPN-HD. Kudos to Fox.

Rick told me that it's going to take a while to get the DD encoder fixed, so for the few of us that can actually receive KMGH free, and for the rest who are paying for it, it'll be DD2.0 for now. But at least there aren't any dropouts. I'll take no dropouts in 2.0 over dropouts in 5.1 every day of the week.

I agree on the dropouts. The last time they tried 5.1 (I think I was watching NYPD last week) there were frequent metallic pings which were quite annoying. However, when it does work, it sounds pretty good!

Sorry they don't give their transmitter power squirrels enough nuts to get the power up for everyone. But, hey, isn't the Lookout tower just about done... even with the minor delays their lawyers didn't know about?

Originally posted by gakon
For the brief time I was flipping channels, "North Shore" was in HD on Comcast (towards the end). Was that the case OTA? If so, then they probably had to make a manual switch, or they fixed whatever was broken.

It was in SD both OTA and on Comcast for the first half of the show. Soon after I posted they switched to a test pattern, flipped back and forth between SD and HD a few times, then finally went into HD for the remainder of the show.

Back in April I posted about HD radio coming to Denver soon. I just happened to be flipping around the radio dial in my car over lunch, and heard 89.3 KUVO run a spot bragging about being the first Colorado station on the air in HD FM radio. Checked their website and the information is at http://www.kuvo.org/jzhdradio.htm

How were they able to put a (presumably) full power digital signal on the air from Lookout without sCARE throwing a fit? Is it considered different from TV broadcasts because it's using the same frequency that their analog broadcast was previously on?

Details about HD radio can be found at http://www.ibiquity.com

HD Radio is "In Band On Channel". it requires no additions to the transmitter, no change in frequency and no change in the service offered. It is an enhancement to the FM/AM broadcast (similar to RDS information service only it gives you up to and beyond 300kbps of digital audio) and would not require any conversation with the BCC.

This service costs a radio station less than $50,000 to add. That is a relative drop in the bucket in comparison to the cost of upgrading a TV station to HD. I would think that with the increasing pressure from sat. radio, broadcasters would be quick to convert today.

Sorry for not being on topic.

Matt

KCNC's PSIP data is apparently messed up this morning, as it's being mapped to 35-1, rather than 4-1 as usual...

Originally posted by MattF
This service costs a radio station less than $50,000 to add. That is a relative drop in the bucket in comparison to the cost of upgrading a TV station to HD. I would think that with the increasing pressure from sat. radio, broadcasters would be quick to convert today.

Of course, like PBS stations here's a case of a public, listener-supported radio station that apparently has the money to spend on something like this; I bet they'll also claim they can't afford programming during their next pledge drive...

Originally posted by kucharsk
KCNC's PSIP data is apparently messed up this morning, as it's being mapped to 35-1, rather than 4-1 as usual... Been that way since Monday.

Anyone know what's going on?

"KCNC's PSIP data is apparently messed up this morning, as it's being mapped to 35-1, rather than 4-1 as usual... "


If you get a chance, check it again today It should be back to normal.

We made some changes to our PSIP this week that will allow you to see TV Guide Programming information. (Your Guide Button will show the Program name, times, Description of the program, and if it is closed captioned or not.)

Bob Rudeseal
KCNC Engineering

Anyone know if something weird is going on with KWGN?

There was all kinds of macroblocking going on with Smallville, enough that my wife even noticed. There was also some strange jerkiness towards the end, almost like frames were being dropped.

Smallville is about the only show I watch on WB, so I'm not sure if it was just this episode or if it is happening on other shows too. I thought I noticed some similar artifacting during commercials, but it was very slight.

Anyone with a hacked HDTivo that can figure out some bitrates?

Originally posted by Thanatos
"KCNC's PSIP data is apparently messed up this morning, as it's being mapped to 35-1, rather than 4-1 as usual... "

If you get a chance, check it again today It should be back to normal.

We made some changes to our PSIP this week that will allow you to see TV Guide Programming information. (Your Guide Button will show the Program name, times, Description of the program, and if it is closed captioned or not.)

Bob Rudeseal
KCNC Engineering
As of 7:15 PM tonight (Wednesday), it was still mapped to 35-1 rather than 4-1...

Originally posted by kucharsk
As of 7:15 PM tonight (Wednesday), it was still mapped to 35-1 rather than 4-1... As of 9:45 PM I am seeing it mapped back to 4-1 and with the program guide information filled in.

So now we have two stations with accurate EPGs.

Smallville was broadcast tonight on KWGN at 17.000 Mb/s, as normal according to my Hipix. I didn't notice any wierdness at the end, but the helicopter chase and the run through the field towards the beginning of the episode were just about unwatchable due to the macroblocking. Both Clark and Lois were wearing bright red shirts. That combined with the fast motion action obviously couldn't take the mpeg compression. Looked almost as bad as trying to display strobe lights.

edit: too late.

I didn't see any strange jerkiness toward the end. The macroblocking was "normal" for the bitstarved channel 2-1. Too bad they won't kill subchannel 2-2.

Sorry, my HDTiVo isn't hacked (yet), so I can't tell you for sure, but IIRC, 2-1 is broadcast at about 15Mbps. [edit: I guess it's 17 Mbps]

We demand all OTA and cable fed HDTV channels be broadcast at FULL bitrate!!!!!!!!

This is totally unacceptable! Kill the subchannels. These are public air waves and we the public want the best possible HDTV picture and sound.

P-E-R-I-O-D. There are no excuses.

This early in the game, why aren't we looking at VC-1 and/or MPEG-4 AVC High Profile codecs instead of the very long in the tooth MPEG-2? At 16 Megabit/sec VBR on practically both codecs you get next to D-5 digital master quality with virtually no artifacts at 1920x1080p/24 (that's progressive scan, not interlaced!!) and if you move the bitrate up a little bit, they can handle 1920x1080p/30 with video-phile quality and have room for at least a full bitrate DTS 24/96 or possibly even WMA Pro Lossless soundtrack within the broadcast spec.

Unless the broadcasters kick it up a notch the best way to watch HDTV programming would be to wait for the pre-recorded shows to come out on Blu-Ray discs.

Dan Hitchman - you're WAY too late to the party - MPEG2 IS the standard for HDTV for the US. Now get over it. The best you can do is harass your broadcasters to do no sub-channels/ full bitrate to the HDTV show.

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Unless the broadcasters kick it up a notch the best way to watch HDTV programming would be to wait for the pre-recorded shows to come out on Blu-Ray discs. Just like the best way to watch SDTV now is to wait for the pre-recorded shows to come out on DVD.

Unfortunately, we only get the chance to change broadcast TV standards once every forty years, so I don't see MPEG-2 getting replaced anytime soon. Over time you will see the new codecs appear on pre-recorded media or cable/satellite systems where there is one entity with the power to command such a change.

Personally, I think we are near the end of the era where broadcast TV is a dominant medium.

At 17Mbs, I hardly think the gross macroblocking you were seeing had to do with the local broadcast bit rate. Must've been something ary earlier in the stream, perhaps during the encoding at the network.

Does anyone here get OTA from lower downtown? If so, how is the reception, and do you get all of the available stations? I'm moving there in a month, and the place I'm renting only allows D*, so I reluctantly have to switch from Comcast. From what I hear it depends on the buildings around me, and there are plenty. It's at 24th and Blake if that helps. Thanks!

If I can't get CBS and ABC football in HD I just might go crazy.

Jeremy - you probably won't have much trouble getting KCNC (CBS) unless you're directly blocked. KMGH (ABC) is going to be pretty troublesome I would think because of the buildings that are between them and where you'll be. So, don't count on that one...

Thanatos. I have VOOM and I live in Broomfield. I am having major problems with KCNC getting it to come in during the NFL games. Most of the rest of the time, it comes in just fine. Do you think it could be my antanae placement. I have it pointed halfway between downtown and lookout mountain. I have the antanae that came with VOOM. Like I said, it comes in fine except when the NFL is on. I am afraid to touch the antanae because I just started getting CBS a few months ago. Are you guys broadcasting at a lower power than NBC in Denver? I can get channel 9 no matter where I point the antanae.
Thanks.
T.

I'm moving there in a month, and the place I'm renting only allows D*Jeremy, what does that mean? You can put up any dish you want. The FCC laws say nobody can stop you, especially HOA's.

Plus:

Comcast Cable in Denver carries CBS, ABC, NBC and I think Fox. Can't you get a cable installed if a dish (D* or E*) or OTA doesn't work out?

Well, I just called the leasing office again and talked to a different person. Unfortunately he said the same thing, the building is wired for D* through Qwest, and they have their own satellite dishes, so I won't need one. I've never heard of such a thing, but that's what he said. So that means that I have to use them and pay whatever they want to charge. To top it off, I have to use crappy DSL instead of a cable modem. Wonder if they'll force me into getting a home phone line for the DSL. My hide would then be officially chapped.

I'm not sure what the FCC has to say about that, but I'd be willing to bet it's legal. Some sort of exclusive contract with D* I suppose.

Thanks for the responses though. Mark, I'm sure glad KCNC won't be a problem, since they have by far the best network HD football coverage. (And golf)

One good side is that I get the HDNets back instead of the inferior INHDs.

Jeremy,

Does your new complex have the multi-sat dishes, and do they let you provide your own receiver? Worst case scenario would be if they only provide a single-sat dish, and/or if they won't let you hook up your own HD receiver.

Originally posted by markdl
Smallville was broadcast tonight on KWGN at 17.000 Mb/s, as normal according to my Hipix. I didn't notice any wierdness at the end, but the helicopter chase and the run through the field towards the beginning of the episode were just about unwatchable due to the macroblocking. Both Clark and Lois were wearing bright red shirts. That combined with the fast motion action obviously couldn't take the mpeg compression. Looked almost as bad as trying to display strobe lights.

Does the 17 Mbps include both subchannels? I'm wondering if somebody got something set up wrong and they are sending the picture out twice instead of once like was the plan.

I thought Hipix and similar cards recorded all of the streams for a particular channel. Forgive me if I'm remembering wrong.

When I talked to them, I asked if I would need to just get receivers, he said yes. I just sold my Sammy 160 about six months ago too! Maybe D* will help me out on something new.

I'm a newbie to the forum and to this HDTV stuff, so excuse me if I'm ignorant of the terminology and so forth.

I recently installed my Sammy 6163 and ts360 receiver and the only OTA HDTV local stations I get are 2, 12's and 31.

My antenna is in the attic and will have to stay there due to the home owners assn. and the ol' lady.

I am about 10 miles east of Brighton.

Is this all I should expect for now 'til the new tower is built?

winndl - attic in antenna - HOA - NO! - old lady - maybe. YOu just have to convince her that to see the value of your several thousand (maybe just hundred) dollar HDTV set, you need an antenna OUTSIDE on the roof.

Yea, I know, I'm just trying to find out if I will ever get the other HD stations without putting it on the roof or not. Right now I get all the regular stations very well with it where it is, in the attic.

Thanks, though

Winndl,

Digital 2 & 31 are broadcasting at a higher power than the other DTV stations. That's why you can get them with your current antenna setup. And of course, all the stations are broadcasting analog signals at their full power.

If you want the other network stations, you most likely will have to put one on your roof. And again, HOA's by law cannot stop you. For the wife's OK, it may take some jewelry. ;)
Channelmaster makes a nice rooftop antenna (#3021) that works great and is fairly small and unobtrusive.

Check out... www.denverdtv.info for more info.

squidboy - I don't think that 2-2 is a true subchannel at KWGN. I'm sure Dave would jump in here and correct this if it's wrong, but I'm pretty sure 2-2 is a mirrored channel, not taking any additional bandwidth from the signal, because it also reads 17.000 Mb/s on my Hipix. Unlike KMGH, with 7.1 at 12.5 Mb/s (roughly) and 7-2 at 4.5 Mb/s (roughly).

winndl - Dr_Mal can probably advise you better than I can, as he lives out in your direction, but I'd say you have a slim chance of picking up the downtown Republic Plaza stations (KCNC, KRMA, KUSA) from inside your attic if you have a very high gain UHF antenna installed, AND if you reorient it to aim EXACTLY at Republic Plaze (an inch either direction may be the difference between signal and no signal from out there), AND if you are high enough up to have no obstructions of any kind between your antenna and Republic Plaza. All of those have to be met exactly for you to have any chance from inside your attic. On the roof, you have a better chance, but you will still have to aim very carefully to get anything at all out there.

On a personal front, I'm installing a 2nd antenna on my roof this weekend. Last weekend, I moved my satellite dish off the roof. It was about 10 feet in front and 5 feet below my current antenna. After I moved the dish, I immediately lost 10 points of signal strength from KMGH, taking me below the lock threshold with 2 splitters in the line. So, I'm putting up a second antenna to get one of the splitters out of there so that I can receive KMGH on my 3 tuners again. After spending all week diagnosing, moving the dish was the ONLY thing that has changed this week. Weather is roughly the same, leaves are still on the trees, antenna didn't move at all, KMGH didn't reduce their broadcast power or orientation...sigh...my roof is going to really look like an anteanna farm now. Good thing my wife doesn't care about anything except the end result! :)

Leonard,
Any word on Judge Jackson's LCGII hearing date yet?

Last weekend, I moved my satellite dish off the roof. It was about 10 feet in front and 5 feet below my current antenna. After I moved the dish, I immediately lost 10 points of signal strength from KMGH, taking me below the lock threshold with 2 splitters in the line.

Your antenna was receiving KMGH (maybe others) on a bounced or bent signal rather than a LOS signal. Given that, I'd first try changing the vertical elevation of your existing antenna. If it is currently level, try raising it 5 to 20 degrees. If it is already angled vertically, try changing the angle or make it level. Heck, with the wierdness of our local DTV signals, I'd even try pointing it downward, as a last resort before hooking up another antenna..

Just some thoughts.

Originally posted by CEB II
Heck, with the wierdness of our local DTV signals, I'd even try pointing it downward, as a last resort before hooking up another antenna. Oddly enough, that's exactly what I have to do out here in Elizabeth. My attic mount antenna points roughly 10-15 degrees down. At 6300', I don't think I am that much higher than the top of RP, am I? :)

Mark:

I agree on moving the antenna around. All the screwing around I did with my antenna was just to receive KMGH. You might be able to do some small changes -- up, down, aiming, or tilt and get KMGH again. Or, put your dish back up! What is more unsightly -- a dish or a big ol' antenna?

BTW, I Tivoed Lost on Wednesday and when I watched it later, I was getting (and recording)f LOTS of breakups probably due to rain. That hasn't happened to me since I got my Tivo. Going to try again to record the 2 hour repeat of Lost on Sat night. I think the weather will be good.

Originally posted by winndl
I'm a newbie to the forum and to this HDTV stuff, so excuse me if I'm ignorant of the terminology and so forth.

I recently installed my Sammy 6163 and ts360 receiver and the only OTA HDTV local stations I get are 2, 12's and 31.

My antenna is in the attic and will have to stay there due to the home owners assn. and the ol' lady.

I am about 10 miles east of Brighton.

Is this all I should expect for now 'til the new tower is built?
If you're unwilling to put the antenna on the roof, yeah, that's all you can expect until the towers are built and operational in, what, 2007?

If you're within the Denver DMA, you may be able to get all the Denver HD locals by next summer via D*.

When I had my antenna indoors, it was a constant struggle to pick up KCNC and KUSA reliably. Now with it on the roof, they come in well into the 90s on my TiVo's signal strength reader. Then again, being 10 miles east of me, you're probably at least 50% further from the downtown stations. But you might be able to pick up at least a 45% (which is all you really need for a stable picture) strength on the roof.

Not picking on you, winndl, but I'm always surprised when people here say their wife won't let them put an antenna on the roof. I don't recall asking my wife for permission -- I called an antenna installer. Maybe I'm lucky she didn't put up a fuss, who knows.

Yeah, I tried the moving the antenna around a little bit. The first step is to add another 5' mast to my current one, and raise it up. I did reangle it, and adjust the horizontally and vertically as much as I could on my current 5' mast. Didn't help at all.

I moved the dish not because I don't like the way it looks (which I kinda do) but because it was in a spot on my roof that I can't get to when the roof is buried in snow...I didn't have a satellite signal for 2 days last winter when we had that big storm. So, now it's in a spot on the side of the house that is easily reached even if we are buried in 3 feet of snow.

How about getting another dish (not a functional one) and put it up where your old dish used to be. Again, whatever works!

Originally posted by santellavision
Leonard,
Any word on Judge Jackson's LCGII hearing date yet?

No.

Hi All,
It is good to finally join the conversation. I have been reading this thread for the past couple of months. You folks have inspired me to start down the arduous rode of trying to get OTA DTV in the Denver metro area. I do have some questions though. The location I am going to be trying from
is essentially at Havana and Alameda in Aurora (Moline and Alameda to be exact). I have already purchased a Sammy SIR-T150. I am not real clear on what antenna I should get though. It’s going to have to be mounted in the attic no matter what (It’s going into a town home). I was looking at
the Channel Master 4228. It’s supposed to be the highest gain UHF antenna the make. Do you think this is a good choice for my application? I checked my address using this site "antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx" and it said I was roughly 7.5mi from Republic Plaza and 20mi from Lookout Mountain. Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.


--Thanks
--Joe

I know a guy who put a 4228 in his attic in the old Lowry redevelopment area. He's getting good signal strength on everything but ABC. It took a lot of subtle aiming tweaks, but he was able to get it working.

Good luck, and make sure to report back!

Welcome Joe,

The 4228 is a good choice. I put in a 3021 (smaller) at Parker Rd & Iliff and it pulls in all the stations including KMGH out there. So, the 4228 is bigger yet. The Channelmasters are tough to find here in Denver. If you need a source checkout Stark Electronics. They're on the www.denverdtv.info site under links.

I went ahead and installed my second antenna today. My wife thinks our roof is starting to look like a TV station, but doesn't care. I told her about some wives dead set against anything antenna related on the roof, and her response..."are they nuts!?!"

Here's what my roof looks like at the moment, until the next project... :)
The 2 radio shack yagis are pointing right at KMGH, while the little gold double bowtie is pointing at Lookout. I'm not combining any signals - the double bowtie and the lower yagi are an an A-B switch into the hipix card in my office, and the upper yagi is run to my 921 and to the hipix card in my HTPC.

Mark, I don't care what anyone else says, I think that picture is beautiful :)

Santellavision and other professionals,

How are you guys dealing with the temporary nature, especially in Denver, of the current HD broadcasting environment? Are you telling your customers that you may need to come back and reorient the antenna, or possibly in the case of KMGH(if they move their HD broadcasts to their current analog frequencies, which is possible after analog broadcasting ends), install a VHF antenna?

Sometimes I hate surprises, and if I thought that I was 'all set'(fat, dumb & happy), and all of a sudden, the transmitter location changes, and/or the broadcast frequency changes from UHF to VHF, I'd need to spend more money, I might be a little po'd.

Are you guys passing this info along to your customers? And, have you considered installing VHF/UHF antennas just to make sure that you're covered?

....jc

Of course, he can speak for himself, but I'm 99% sure santellavision is a content producer, not a home installer.

And even though you didn't ask for home users' opinion, I feel compelled to chip in with my .02.

Once the tower on Lookout is at full power, it should be entirely possible to pick up those signals even if your antenna is pointed downtown.

Someone like Geof (is he still around? Haven't heard from him lately and there was that rumoured move to Buffalo...) would have to talk to the UHF vs VHF capabilities of antennas.

Originally posted by markdl
I went ahead and installed my second antenna today. My wife thinks our roof is starting to look like a TV station, but doesn't care. I told her about some wives dead set against anything antenna related on the roof, and her response..."are they nuts!?!"

Here's what my roof looks like at the moment, until the next project... :)
The 2 radio shack yagis are pointing right at KMGH, while the little gold double bowtie is pointing at Lookout. I'm not combining any signals - the double bowtie and the lower yagi are an an A-B switch into the hipix card in my office, and the upper yagi is run to my 921 and to the hipix card in my HTPC.

Oh no. Another ugly antenna farm.:)

Mark, Why don't you offer KMGH the use of your antenna?

It's a lot bigger then theirs. :D

Originally posted by dr_mal

Someone like Geof (is he still around? Haven't heard from him lately and there was that rumoured move to Buffalo...) would have to talk to the UHF vs VHF capabilities of antennas. I'm still here, lurking. Haven't had much to say and haven't moved to Buffalo yet either.

I hope we all don't need new antennas by the time Lookout gets online:(

Once Lookout does get online the best remedy would be to re-point antennas. Certainly some folks won't need to but others will have to re-point. If you get Republic Plaza signals and KWGN/KDVR now you'll probably not need to re-point but it would still be best to aim the antenna to maximize signal level. The wild-card is if some stations choose to keep their NTSC frequencies. If that happens then the UHF only antenna solutions won't work.

Geof, I was thinking of you when that sun probe thingie crashed last month. Hope it wasn't anything you worked on :o Nice to see you're still around.

The one thing I hadn't thought about when Lookout goes full-power -- at full power, we should be able to just use a nice pair of indoor rabbit ears and get our HD that way. Hopefully no need to repoint a roof or attic mounted antenna. I know when I was first trying to get HD here, I was able to get Fox digital with a little $10 set-top jobbie from K-Mart.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Geof, I was thinking of you when that sun probe thingie crashed last month. Hope it wasn't anything you worked on :o Nice to see you're still around.

The one thing I hadn't thought about when Lookout goes full-power -- at full power, we should be able to just use a nice pair of indoor rabbit ears and get our HD that way. Hopefully no need to repoint a roof or attic mounted antenna. I know when I was first trying to get HD here, I was able to get Fox digital with a little $10 set-top jobbie from K-Mart. No, I didn't have anything to do with the sun probe thingie. And yes, "rabbit ears" may work for the majority of us when Lookout goes online. In my case I can resort to the attic antenna which is currently pointed at Lookout and be done with it...that is if I'm still around when Lookout lights up.

I have this fear that when the health study SCARE is partially funding is released that if there is any inkling of a tie between radiation and Lookout health SCARE will file an injunction against the new tower. I just don't think this is a done deal yet and although I may be wrong, I predict more legal challenges (and delays) ahead for the LCG.

Originally posted by Geof
No, I didn't have anything to do with the sun probe thingie.
Good to hear

Originally posted by Geof
I have this fear that when the health study SCARE is partially funding is released that if there is any inkling of a tie between radiation and Lookout health SCARE will file an injunction against the new tower. I just don't think this is a done deal yet and although I may be wrong, I predict more legal challenges (and delays) ahead for the LCG.
Honestly, at this point, I'm holding out hope for D* new HD LiL plans next summer. I knew the tower would take a long time to get built and running, but I never dreamed we'd have the potential for full-bandwidth HD LiL before the tower got built. Hopefully E* has something in the works as well.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Honestly, at this point, I'm holding out hope for D* new HD LiL plans next summer. I knew the tower would take a long time to get built and running, but I never dreamed we'd have the potential for full-bandwidth HD LiL before the tower got built. Hopefully E* has something in the works as well. Yes, that will probably happen first, strange as it sounds (who woulda thunk that 2 years ago?). I may be interested in that as well but I will have to see how much $$ D* will be wanting us to pony up first.

KDVR Fox is not passing the HD signal for the Giants/Packer game. Very disappointing!

**edit** I called engineering, but no one answered so I left a message.

jc,

yeah, I'm just a content provider (HD producer/director) But I'm always asked my input on DTV and HD equipment. I just tell 'em the scoop and say you won't know about reception until you try it. And to buy the biggest antenna you can get and put it up as high on the roof as you can!

Since you guys were posting roof pics, I thought I'd post a shot of our friend jetlags house ;)
http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/dishfarm.jpg
Just kiddin' Tim!

Any one else seeing that the Packers vs. Giants game doesn't look like it's in HD over KDVR-31? I've got vertical bars this week....

Originally posted by hoopsbwc34
Any one else seeing that the Packers vs. Giants game doesn't look like it's in HD over KDVR-31? I've got vertical bars this week....

See Mike's comments above. KDVR is transmitting their goofy SD 14:9 format.

Thanks Mike for calling and getting KDVR to throw the switch. We now have HD.

Don

WTF KDVR?

Packers-Giants in HD (even YOUR WEBSITE) says so but then you don't send the HD signal? And there's NOBODY minding the store??!! If you're gonna prevent us from watching it via NFL ST then STEP UP, GROW A PAIR and do your job.

Since I just ripped them allow me to give credit where credit is due...a big THANKS to whoever STEPPED UP and threw the switch. The game looks FANTASTIC. I owe somebody at KDVR a dozen krispy kremes.

Originally posted by donyoop
Thanks Mike for calling and getting KDVR to throw the switch. We now have HD.

Don

:cool:

Sometimes it just takes a friendly phone call. Although, I thought the splicer meant they didn't need to "flip a switch" anymore.:confused:

Quick Question...

Rented a house in LA and I'm swimming in high-power OTA digital signals. But, I'm flying back today to my place in Wheat Ridge for a few days and since I've been following the LA threads, I wondered where Denver is at.
Is ABC still broadcasting with their toy transmitter? Did Comcast ever put ABC on their system?

Thanks,

John in Jeffco