Originally posted by johnty
Quick Question...

Rented a house in LA and I'm swimming in high-power OTA digital signals. But, I'm flying back today to my place in Wheat Ridge for a few days and since I've been following the LA threads, I wondered where Denver is at.
Is ABC still broadcasting with their toy transmitter? Did Comcast ever put ABC on their system?

Thanks,

John in Jeffco Yes, Comcast put ABC on their system; they now have all the local HD broadcasts except KWGN (WB).

Other than that, nothing concreate has changed in the past year. The Jeffco commissioners approved the LCG2 tower (again) in August, but there isn't even a court date yet for the judge who held it all up last spring.

Argh.... Sunday Ticket shows the Broncos game in HD, but KCNC-DT is showing SD!

At the beginning of the broadcast the Bronco game said it was "SONY HDTV where available". We know KCNC can give us these in HDTV. Why is KCNC not delivering it in HDTV? Of course the directv HDTV station is blacked out for us in Denver.

Anyone have a number to call at KCNC?

I tried calling KCNC and asked for the engineering dept. I was transferred to some woman's voice mail. How do we contact them?

It's about time. They have it up in HD

It just switched to HD as I was calling and getting voice mail after voice mail. Ug, at least they figured it out.

That was weird. Channel 35 OTA KCNC Denver did not go HD until the end of the Patriots Bills game and Broncos went HD on 35 at the same exact time that it came on D* channel 81 KCBS Also, channel 95 Jets/Dolphins HD on D* Sunday Ticket did not transfer from Patriots Bills to Jets Dolphins until the end of the Bills game. Of course the Sunday Ticket HD channel for Broncos is blacked out for KCNC. Must be a CBS network bandwidth thing going on there. Perhaps CBS is limited to two simultaneous feeds?


Don

From Ken H in the programming forum: The CBS 4:15pm games were delayed until the primary CBS 1pm game, Pats @ Bills, was over.

Originally posted by donyoop
Perhaps CBS is limited to two simultaneous feeds?

Don

That is a correct assumption.

Here in Utah, we are also airing the Denver game in HD.

We had to upconvert until the end of the previous HD game (which we weren't airing), at which time CBS switched the HD feed to the already started Denver game.

CBS had an unprecented 3 HD games today, but only 2 HD satellite slots to broadcast them.

Theoretically, the Denver game is supposed to be in 5.1 surround, but here we are only getting 2.0.

Is anyone in the Denver area seeing 5.1?

Wondering if it is a problem with our (recently updated) satellite reciever, or in fact CBS was wrong about the audio.
They did say the other game going on right now, Jets at Dolphins wouldn't be in 5.1, we pointed our other reciever at that game just to see if the audio information was correct, and as far as we can tell, it is also only 2.0 audio.


Jerry.
I'm not a Master Control operator, I just play one on TV.

Nevermind on the 5.1 question.

This just handed me: Denver @ Tampa will be broadcast in 2+2 audio.

(not quite sure what the "+2" is, SAP perhaps?)



Jerry

Originally posted by huberjgl
Is anyone in the Denver area seeing 5.1?

Who knows. My Mits WS doesn't tell me that much. KCNC is showing 'Stereo', while up in Cheyenne(KGWN) is showing 'Surround'. Yea, I seem to be in a CBS 'sweetspot'. The KGWN transmitter is 137 miles from here, while KCNC is 53 miles.

Can someone tell what resolution that KCNC is broadcasting the game in? My Mits won't display 720, so I don't know whether the receiver is upconverting to 1080 or receiving 1080.

Thanks,
....jc

KCNC, like most stations, broadcasts in 1080i.
ABC [including ESPN] and Fox are the only renegades, using 720p.

Thanks,
That explains why MNF doesn't look as good and maybe why the picture doesn't fill the screen.

I'm assuming that whatever new D* receiver that I'm going to buy, will indicate the OTA resolution, so I should have that covered.

What are you guys using to get the data transfer rates that are being broadcast?

Thanks,
....jc

KDVR must have had a splicer issue yesterday, as with that setup, there is no "switch" to throw.

Good to know about why the begining of the Broco game was SD.

My Hipix computer cards, in addition to recording OTA HD for me tell me the broadcast data rates for each channel.

That explains why MNF doesn't look as goodIt only looks that way on native 1080i displays. Some displays do not have a good scaler. If it looks that bad to you, you might want to consider an outboard scaler. Oh, it looks amazing on a native 720p DLP!

Well he mentioned that it didnt fill the screen of his widescreen set, either. I think he has other issues. Not the least of which is the fact that I find it incredibly hard to believe that he actually gets KMGH's digital signal from over 50 miles away to begin with.. regardless what antenna config he uses.

Originally posted by DP1
Well he mentioned that it didnt fill the screen of his widescreen set, either. I think he has other issues. Not the least of which is the fact that I find it incredibly hard to believe that he actually gets KMGH's digital signal from over 50 miles away to begin with.. regardless what antenna config he uses.

Regarding the picture not filling the screen: I just spoke to Mits, and the dude indicated that this is a very common question. He indicated that it's not the set, but the broadcast. He said that it's a 4:3 format broadcast in HD, and that the black bars are actually part of the picture that they are sending. And, that there's nothing that can be done(at the set) to make the picture fill the screen. I just checked the channels that I can receive and they all have the black bars. However, yesterday, on CBS, the picture of the Bronco game did fill the entire screen, and this was on both CBS stations that I can receive.

DP1, you are welcome to drive on up here to see for yourself! I have a good shot to the North, with the limitations being a ridge to the West and Devils Head(Az: 358° 47'; Elev: 9,748) between Lookout Mtn & Downtown Denver. The towers on Lookout Mtn are at about 351° 50'(53.4 miles) and Republic Plaza is at about 5° 53'(54.1 Miles).

What I find amazing is the reception(always good) from KGWN(CBS - Cheyenne) which is at about 1° 44'(147.5 Miles). There seems to be a 'sweet spot' right up in that direction(KMGH & KGWN). At night, in this direction, when there are high clouds, we can see the glow from the lights in Denver.

....jc

jc,

A couple of things...
If you are seeing black bars on KMGH during MNF, then you are not seeing the HD feed at all. The feed is a full 16:9. No wonder it doesn't look good.

And KCNC & KUSA both broadcast gray bars (not black) on their 4:3 material sent out on their respective DTV channels. So, if you are seeing black bars there too, then you are not seeing their HD feed either. I think you've got some settings issues.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
[B]Regarding the picture not filling the screen: I just spoke to Mits, and the dude indicated that this is a very common question. He indicated that it's not the set, but the broadcast. He said that it's a 4:3 format broadcast in HD, and that the black bars are actually part of the picture that they are sending. And, that there's nothing that can be done(at the set) to make the picture fill the screen.

In regards to broadcasts that are in 4x3 format but that are upconverted to 720p/1080i by a station, the Mits guy was right. You cant stretch the image to fit the screen yourself. But while non HD programming is sent out like that (like all the daytime stuff), Monday Night Football isnt. It *is* a 16x9 broadcast as Ernie pointed out, as all true video based HD inherently is, so theres no reason it wouldnt be filling up your screen.

As far as getting their digital signal to begin with, I'm sure altitude and orientation plays a role quite naturally, but their signal is so incredibly weak which is why I was questioning it. Do you realize the power output?It's no where near as strong a signal as those that come from Republic (it comes from the roof of their own studio) and even those are nowhere near full power.

Guys that live North of KMGH cant get it even if they're only a couple miles away because of that weakness which is why the running gag is that thier coverage area extends to their own parking lot. It's hard to believe it'd go 50 miles in the other direction. Even though theres actually no shortage of reports of guys to the South getting it. But in 5 years of paying attention to this stuff I've never heard of anyone, even to the South, that has gotten it from more than like 10-12 air miles out. And thats generally when they have line of sight to the skyscrapers Downtown like from Highlands Ranch.

I dont think theres ever even been a single report of a guy getting KMGH from Castle Rock area, much less twice as far South. If you are getting it, even sporatically much less 24/7, it truly is a one in a million type deal.

JC - what channels are you describing? Are you picking up KMGH on channel 17 remapped to 7-1, or on channel 7? What about KCNC - channel 35 remapped to 4-1 or channel 4? It sounds an aweful lot like you're picking up the analog signals from Lookout rather than the digital ones from downtown.

MNF was in HD this week from KMGH-DT, so if you were seeing black bars during the game, you weren't picking up KMGH-DT.

Originally posted by markdl
JC - what channels are you describing? Are you picking up KMGH on channel 17 remapped to 7-1, or on channel 7? What about KCNC - channel 35 remapped to 4-1 or channel 4? It sounds an aweful lot like you're picking up the analog signals from Lookout rather than the digital ones from downtown.

I'm still working to see what the deal is. I spent 20 minutes again talking with a Mits rep, but that was a waste of time! Aaaarrrggg!

The way that this box is designed, there are 3 antenna inputs. 2 for NTSC and 1 for digital. When I use, and I have been, the digital input(Ant-DTV), it's only using the digital tuner and will only pick up digital signals. I can't get, for instance, Channel 4, KCNC(My most powerful signal). But it will pick up, KCNC channel 35, that it is remapping to 4.01. Also, KMGH channel 17, remapped to 7.01 & 7.02. KMGH is a point of interest. 7.01 is displayed as 'HD Standard', and it won't let me 'format' the pic to fill the screen. However, 7.02 is displayed as 'SD 4:3', and I can use the formatting functions to reformat the picture to fill the screen. So, there's no doubt that I'm getting & using the digital signals.

Again, yesterday, I did get the Bronco game from 2 different CBS stations, and that picture, displayed as 'HD Standard' did fill the screen. However, today, those same stations have the black vertical bars on the edges of the picture. The black bars, may be a function of the TV? Never-the-less, I can't reformat the picture.

Tonight, I'll see what KMGH looks like. And, with so few people being able to even get the signal, does anyone know if they are using directional transmitters(that may explain some things)?

Also, when I get my new D* receiver, I'll be able to do a comparison. Any suggestions there?

I did make a mistake using Republic plaza for KMGH's transmitter. Does anyone have the coordinates for their HD transmitter location? That will help me get a better idea of the direction to it.

Thanks,
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Again, yesterday, I did get the Bronco game from 2 different CBS stations, and that picture, displayed as 'HD Standard' did fill the screen. However, today, those same stations have the black vertical bars on the edges of the picture. The black bars, may be a function of the TV? Never-the-less, I can't reformat the picture.

Tonight, I'll see what KMGH looks like. And, with so few people being able to even get the signal, does anyone know if they are using directional transmitters(that may explain some things)?


Well again, the reason those CBS stations would have black bars today is because while it's not HD content being shown, the stations send out their signal as 1080i 24/7 and since 1080i (upconverted or otherwise) is a 16x9 format, the stations are inserting those bars to fill the 16x9 frame when the content itself is 4x3. Thats why your TV cant (or wont) stretch the signal. As far as the tv is concerned it's getting a 16x9 signal (it's just that part of it happens to have black or grey bars). Same with 7.1 which is an "HD" signal all the time whether the content is truly HD or not.

From the rest of what you said it does sound like you're getting KMGH (the 7.1 and 7.2 reference, the latter not being an HD signal) as truly shocking as that would be. As far as their transmitter, I dont know that it's directional per se, it's just again, that it's stupidly low power so even the bigger buildings north of it blocks the signal in that direction. As far as the location of their transmitter, it's just a few blocks away from Republic.

[I did make a mistake using Republic plaza for KMGH's transmitter. Does anyone have the coordinates for their HD transmitter location? That will help me get a better idea of the direction to it.

Nevermind. Using their location on Speer between Lincoln & E. 6th I've got:

Az: 6° 08' 24" - 52.929 Miles

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
... But it will pick up, KCNC channel 35, that it is remapping to 4.01. Also, KMGH channel 17, remapped to 7.01 & 7.02. KMGH is a point of interest. 7.01 is displayed as 'HD Standard'... 7.02 is displayed as 'SD 4:3'... So, there's no doubt that I'm getting & using the digital signals.

Dude, I'm amazed! I'm going to have to check that out. I've got a little cabin I often visit about half way between Woodland Park & Divide and I've been tuning in regular analog signals from Lookout for over 10 years. I've been meaning to bring along one of the digital receivers one of these times to test.

At best, I figured maybe KDVR-DT and KWGN-DT would come in, though even those aren't yet at full power. But if you're getting KMGH-DT off of their twig and Republic Plaza signals...

Stunning! Gives me serious motivation to experiment next time I'm down.

Problem solved? Prior to MNF, I rescanned for digital channels. I then waited for the broadcast, and tuned in. Black bars. I then did some checking. I was watching 7.02. Channel down. 7.01 wasn't there! I manually added 7.01, and YES, full screen, with a fantastic picture! The commercials, however, did have the black bars. No grey. Must be the way my set handles 4:3 HD broadcasts.

As I write this 8:27 pm, the only HD channels that have HD programming that is filling the whole screen are: KMGH, KGWN & KRMA. KCNC is not being received.

KMGH Director of Engineering
Thank you for your interest in Denver's 7, KMGH-TV/DT. KMGH broadcasts a low power digital signal on UHF channel 17 from the top of our studio at Speer Boulevard and Lincoln Street. The antenna is omni directional and the effective radiated power is just less than 3 kilowatts.

Based on your location there is virtually no chance that you can receive a signal, however, if your receive antenna was high enough and you had line of sight to the top of our building and you had a very high gain receive antenna, I might be convinced to you could receive something.


A sweetspot indeed. Anyone who doubts, is welcome to venture up here and see!

Thanks all,
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
A sweetspot indeed. Anyone who doubts, is welcome to venture up here and see!

It's not doubt, it's just so surprising. What you are getting... I just never thought it could be possible. For many, these signals are either very difficult or impossible to get right here in Denver, especially KMGH-DT. As Kramer might say, "Oh, I'll be venturing..."

jc, Quick question. Denver analog stations come in so much better in that area than Colo. Spgs. ones, so I've always been able watch Denver stuff when I'm up there. Are you getting any of the digital signals from Colorado Springs where you are?

Originally posted by TommyK
... Are you getting any of the digital signals from Colorado Springs where you are?

Tommy,
There are only 2, KKTV & KXRM, and KXRM has only been on the air a short time. When I scan for channels, it has picked up KKTV(coming in thru the rear of my antenna), but it won't display a picture. My antenna is in a fixed position(toward Denver), but if I turned it, I might be able to pick up KKTV pretty good.

I do have a 'sidearm' antenna whose sole purpose is to pick up the KKTV analog signal. It works ok, but the pic is fuzzy. I'm in Woodland West, and I don't have a LOS to Cheyenne Mtn. As you move West from my location, Pikes Peak becomes a bigger obstacle, and your chances of getting any C/S signals decreases.

There is a translator transmitter(analog right now) on Gold Hill for KXRM(Fox). It's on channel 28 and it broadcasts a directional signal toward Divide. I's only 2 miles from me, and the signal is coming in thru the side of my antenna.

....jc

I am speechless that you get KMGH-DT up there jc, and am now convinced you are getting it. Un-freakin-believable...

But, I'm still not sure that you get how HD is being broadcast. Primetime network programming (dramas and most comedies) are broadcast in HD (ie 16x9, filling the screen, beautiful picture). Reality programming, 99% of commercials, and just about all daytime programming is upconverted standard definition programming. The stations take the analog signal and upconvert it to 1080i (or 720p in KMGH's and KDVR's cases), add either the black or gray sidebars to the 4x3 standard definition image and broadcast it as a 16x9 image. The picture is not nearly as clear or sharp as a high definition picture, and because the signal is high definition, your television can't use any of its aspect ratio controls on it. The 4x3 standard definition upconverts with sidebars has nothing at all to do with your television. That's just the way it is today.

... But, I'm still not sure that you get how HD is being broadcast. ...

Markdl, I think I have that down. My frustration is with my Mits WS and it's user manual. If the set had a signal meter and the UM did a better job of documenting things, it would have made everything easier.

I think that others out here can have similar success with KMGH. Especially those that live closer to Divide. They have a 200'-300' elevation advantage, and a lot of locations have a clear shot toward Denver.

I could increase the signals that I get, but for now, I'm going to wait until HD broadcasting in Denver, is online with full power. I don't see much use in chasing temporary situations.

....jc

Originally posted by markdl
I am speechless that you get KMGH-DT up there jc, and am now convinced you are getting it. Un-freakin-believable...


I'm amazed too - you don't suppose the line of tall buildings stretching from 14th and Curtus to 19th and Bdwy act like a large reflector - sort of like a large satellite dish focusing the signal to the south. It would be kind of funny if KMGH actually turned out to having the largest antenna in the country!

He must just indeed live in the ultimate sweetspot. Cuz while we been focusing on his ability to get KMGH, we havent even talked about the ability he has to get KGWN (assuming he gets that 24/7 too as opposed to just once in a while) at 150 miles. Normally once again that would be unheard of even with a full power signal because of the curvature of the earth if nothing else. Having to rely otherwise on atmospheric conditions to get it from time to time.

Sounds more like he's got the equivalent of a 3000' tall antenna though due to his elevation.

;)

Originally posted by DP1
He must just indeed live in the ultimate sweetspot. Cuz while we been focusing on his ability to get KMGH, we havent even talked about the ability he has to get KGWN (assuming he gets that 24/7 too as opposed to just once in a while) at 150 miles. Normally once again that would be unheard of even with a full power signal because of the curvature of the earth if nothing else. Having to rely otherwise on atmospheric conditions to get it from time to time.

Sounds more like he's got the equivalent of a 3000' tall antenna though due to his elevation.

;) We should send a DTV receiver along with someone up to the visitor's center on Pikes Peak. Just for grins.

We should send a DTV receiver along with someone up to the visitor's center on Pikes Peak. Just for grins.I'm sure Weird Al has. And most likely testified that all DTV needs is 20 or 30 watts of power to cover all of Colorado!

Originally posted by santellavision
I'm sure Weird Al has. And most likely testified that all DTV needs is 20 or 30 watts of power to cover all of Colorado!

You bet. Some guy 53 miles away is picking up a 3KW signal.

106 mi at 9KW, 212 mi at 81KW, 424 mi at 6.5MW. The state is approx 322 mi square.

Too bad so people just a few miles away can't pick it up.


-------

TotallyPrewired: What size antenna are you using?

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
Well, I just called the leasing office again and talked to a different person. Unfortunately he said the same thing, the building is wired for D* through Qwest, and they have their own satellite dishes, so I won't need one. I've never heard of such a thing, but that's what he said. So that means that I have to use them and pay whatever they want to charge. To top it off, I have to use crappy DSL instead of a cable modem. Wonder if they'll force me into getting a home phone line for the DSL. My hide would then be officially chapped.


My MIL (Mother In Law) has a setup at her complex where each unit has a single dish pointing at 101. Lots of times both polarities are stacked onto a single cable and you need to unstack or use the reciever they give you with internal destacker. She had Dish Network initially, but she switched to a DirecTiVo.

If you can see south you can use your own dish (per federal law) and buy your service directly thru DTV (though you might have to give a fake service addresss since Qwest may have dibs in the database on your unit).

Qwest sells naked (no phone service) DSL in a lot of areas, it is $5 more than regular prices.

Originally posted by ADent
TotallyPrewired: What size antenna are you using?

Adent,
It's a Winegard 8200, the predecessor to the HD8200P. It's a big mother, almost 15' long, with very good specs. When I designed this system, I knew that receiving C/S stations would be a difficult proposition, so everything was optimized for Denver stations.

While it's great to be getting KMGH, I still can't receive KUSA, KDVR or KWGN. With 2 of the 3 broadcasting from Lookout Mtn, I am a bit concerned. While I can get several analog broadcasts from there, no digital signals yet. :(

Now, if I could get an antenna array on Pikes Peak, with a microwave link back down here, now that would be cool!:cool:

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Tommy,
There are only 2, KKTV & KXRM, and KXRM has only been on the air a short time.

jc
It's sort of ironic that the Teller County area was not designated as part of the Denver DMA way back when. Were it not for the elaborate network of Southern Colorado station translators, Denver analog signals would be the only reliable television to watch.

FWIW (which probably isn't much) try scanning for the KRDO digital channel 24 just for kicks. They've had it up for about a year at low power but have never passed HD on it, just upconverted SD, and have no desire of delivering HD for the foreseeable future. It might be interesting, though, to see if you even get a signal blip from behind Pikes Peak.

BTW, jc
There might be a few folks on the Springs thread that might be a bit jealous of your HD ABC reception from Denver.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=141193&perpage=20&highlight=KRDO%20digital%20channel&pagenumber=74

Originally posted by TommyK
FWIW (which probably isn't much) try scanning for the KRDO digital channel 24 just for kicks. They've had it up for about a year at low power but have never passed HD on it, just upconverted SD, and have no desire of delivering HD for the foreseeable future. It might be interesting, though, to see if you even get a signal blip from behind Pikes Peak.

Tommy,
Depending on the weather conditions, I've had the Mits scan pick up: 10-KKTV, 16-KUSA & 32-KDVR. I have never picked up 24.:( The receiver knows that they are there, but when I tune to it, just a gray screen, and no remapped channel numbers are displayed. Once I figure out which D* HD receiver to get(any suggestions?), I'll have a 2nd source to try!

Yea, the C/S guys are getting a raw deal. But, then again, until all the stations go full power, I think that we all are.

On another note, my D* 'Gain Master' antenna got here today. Big sucker, hopefully, Good Bye to rain/snow fade. Just gota figure out how to mount it to my tower.

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Yea, the C/S guys are getting a raw deal. But, then again, until all the stations go full power, I think that we all are.


So true.

All,

Has anyone successfully gotten KUSA to approve their waiver request for HD Only on DirecTV? I have been trying to get through to Station Management (Mr. Ogden) and am getting nowhere?

mdm_boulder

It looks like the debate on 9News tomorrow night between Salazar and Coors will be in HD. On this morning's news teaser for it, there was a little "HD" icon at the top of the screen. If it is, in fact, a production of 9News, there's no reason for it not to be HD.

I guess since we can't watch the big guns debate in HD, we'll have to settle for the locals.

For mdm Boulder,

Ihave requested that a test occur at my location to prove that the digital signal is below level then they have no choice but grant the waiver.

Originally posted by colofan
For mdm Boulder,

Ihave requested that a test occur at my location to prove that the digital signal is below level then they have no choice but grant the waiver.

Are you sure? They are REQUIRED to give you a DIGITAL signal?

Ogden won't even return (or forward to the appropriate people) my emails. I've sent him two.

Ihave requested that a test occur at my location to prove that the digital signal is below level then they have no choice but grant the waiver.This is a new one. I haven't heard about stations taking the time to come out and test reception. Are you suggesting this or have they offered?

And what would the rules be???? Standing on your roof? Test from inside the home? What about an apartment or Condo?

Originally posted by mdm_boulder
All,

Has anyone successfully gotten KUSA to approve their waiver request for HD Only on DirecTV? I have been trying to get through to Station Management (Mr. Ogden) and am getting nowhere?

mdm_boulder

Don't waste your time, they have written several people here that they won't grant it. I think it is their "special way" of saying thanks to all the folks here who worked to help get the LCG tower approved. As I recall the letter they sent had a picture of Roger Ogden holding up his three middle fingers with the caption "Read Between The Lines"!

As for the 'test', they won't be testing their HD signal level, they will be testing their 'analog' signal level.

I have called and written Mr. Ogden. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt, he certainly must be a busy man. He did reply to one email I sent asking where the original was....I resent and have heard nothing. I urge you all to continue calling and writing.

If this is not resolved soon, I will have no choice but to contact the FCC (I know, I know it is a long shot), but KUSA certainly does not want to have the regulators crawling all over them asking a bunch of questions.

mdm_boulder

Originally posted by mdm_boulder
...........................
If this is not resolved soon, I will have no choice but to contact the FCC (I know, I know it is a long shot), but KUSA certainly does not want to have the regulators crawling all over them asking a bunch of questions.

mdm_boulder
Take my word for it, the FCC has been contacted so many times by so many of us about the HD problem here in town that they probably have a separate file cabinet just to store all our letters of complaints. If you don't believe me, go back and read the last three plus years of this thread. They have never acted on any of them, and likely won't now since the LCG tower plan has been 'approved'. You are welcome to try, just don't get your hopes up.

I received an e-mail rejection for a message sent to Mr. Ogden. He didn't send the rejection; someone else did. I replied with what I thought were some valid points that I hoped they'd consider in regards to good customer service and building long-term relationships for both NBC and KUSA. I never heard another word.

I also received the official denial from DirecTV today.

I don't watch NBC. I'm OK with that.

the FCC has been contacted so many times by so many of us about the HD problem here in town that they probably have a separate file cabinet just to store all our letters of complaints.

How would you like to bet that the file cabinet has a certain 'circular' shape to it?

:rolleyes:

I received a denial from DirecTV today also. :( They are giving me 3 months of Showtime as a one year anniversary present though. :)

I sent an e-mail to Mr. Ogden shortly after the KUSA tour about the status of the Gannett News Channel that was announced over a year ago.

I never got a response.

So, has anyone tried getting NBC after moving to their ski chalet?? If I moved to Winter Park would I get NBC-HD - or would I still need to get a waiver from someone?

It seems to me there are a few courses of action worth considering. 1) "Move", although I'm not sure how that would affect other locals. 2) Put your dish on the RV; but SHVA is pretty specific on the RV thing. 3) Measure signal strength -- not a chance. SHVA doesn't distinguish digital from analog therefore you can't win. 4) Fugedditaboutit, NBC doesn't have anything worth the effort.

Once upon a time I started thinking about how I would proceed down waiver avenue wrt ABC. Now it seems the odds of D* carrying ABCHD before football season ends are nil, so I'll never implement the plan. I figured step 1 would be to politely ask KMGH and I assumed I'd be denied; precisely what KUSA is doing. Step 2 is to make a lot of noise. Examples -- contact businesses that seem like major advertisers on KUSA and let them know that you will no longer be doing business with them because of KUSA's waiver policy. Soundtrack would be a good target as they claim to be KUSA'S "partners in hdtv". They'd start asking questions of their "partner" if it appeared their "partner" was a roadblock to hdtv. Cost KUSA 1 advertising account and watch the attitude change. Elected officials: it worked in Wisconsin for Packer games; precedent has been set. $ talks and sh!t rolls downhill. One letter won't bother anybody, but 30+ letters all appearing at once, seemingly growing in volume as the attention mounts; that'll cause some undies to bunch.

Atmospheric conditions or did KDVR boost their signal?

Today, for the 1st time, I'm able to pick up KDVR. Also, a scan is detecting KWGN, another 1st. Both of these channels are broadcasting from Lookout Mtn, and these are the 1st Digital signals that I've gotten from there. They are both a little over 53 miles from here.

I suspect atmospheric conditions, but a power boost would be a great thing! :)

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Atmospheric conditions or did KDVR boost their signal?

Today, for the 1st time, I'm able to pick up KDVR. Also, a scan is detecting KWGN, another 1st. Both of these channels are broadcasting from Lookout Mtn, and these are the 1st Digital signals that I've gotten from there. They are both a little over 53 miles from here.

I suspect atmospheric conditions, but a power boost would be a great thing! :)

....jc It could well be due to fall and leaves dropping. Lots of folks have seasonal variations in signal strength. If that's the case you'll be set for awhile.

Should i just be able to go out and buy any UHF antenna to get the local HD channels. I live in Westminster (112th & federal) and I have 2 digital tuners to choose from, one from my DISH 811, and one from my Mits 55613 (anyone know which tuner is "better"?). Are there any suggestions on what brand or specific type of antenna to buy? Any help would be great, i really want those Broncos in hi-def!

Fox NFL Sunday is in high def on channel 32 from lookout... we should be good to go for the high def doubleheader. We shall see if they switch from Giants/Cowboys to the game at Invesco in time for kickoff.

Don

Originally posted by Milocka
Should i just be able to go out and buy any UHF antenna to get the local HD channels. I live in Westminster (112th & federal) and I have 2 digital tuners to choose from, one from my DISH 811, and one from my Mits 55613 (anyone know which tuner is "better"?). Are there any suggestions on what brand or specific type of antenna to buy? Any help would be great, i really want those Broncos in hi-def!

You should be able to easily get channel 32 from your location. I am near 115th and Holly and have a $20 Radio Shack Yagi UHF antenna in my attic. I am pointed towards Republic Plaza and still pickup channels 32 & 34 from Lookout in that they are in the same general direction. Just use a good quality RG-6 cable and avoid splitters if possible.

Was it just me or...

Was the 5.1 DD sound on the Broncos game awesome yesterday. I felt like I was in the stadium with the surround all around me!

It was awesome, I also thought that the picture was better than any of the CBS HD Bronco games had been.

I posted the following on the Fox football thread in the programming forum but am curious what you guys thought:


I was at the Broncos Carolina game and didn't record it on my Tivo so I haven't seen it on my TV. My comment is on the flyover camera. It is big! Much larger than ones I have seen previously at the game used by ESPN or ABC. It had 6 or 8 cables holding it up instead of 4 and had a cable feed going up to a wire strung across the stadium and then to the side. Previously the cameras must have been using radio transmission because there was no cable. The camera lens was mounted below the large robot cable controller and was a large black ball which appeared to be 8 inches or so in diameter. From the camera size and the cable feed, I would guess it was a pretty good HD camera.

So, how did it actually look compared to other flyover cameras you have seen? At the game, it is VERY noticeable moving around.

It looked amazing! My dad was over watching the game yesterday and even he commented on it. He said that by far, those were the best shots during the show. I have to agree. Also to your point, the skycam seemed to move better. They did some incredible fly over shots (before the play) from behind the defense, across the line, and then around the back of the huddle. Killer!

Ernie, thanks for the feedback.

It sure appears that Fox has come a long way from being the also rans with their stupid 480p programming to leaders in HD broadcasts!

I thought the game looked and sounded great also.

The only problem I had was during the third quarter when my neighbor started mowing his lawn. Every time his lawn mower would get near my house, the picture would break up! It looked like some nasty interference on analog 31, but it was still watchable, while the digital was not.

Maybe newer receivers are a little more tolerant of this type of interference than my old Echostar 6000.

Mark

IMO the quality varies week to week. I thought Den vs. TB looked a little soft but Indy/Raiders and Bills Jets were looking good yesterday. On Saturday Ten vs. Georgia was as good as Ten/Auburn a week ago. And while yesterdays Denver game looked great from the upper sideline camera they obviously had a large number of SD cameras on hand as well. Bottom line: compared to SD ALL HD football is amazing. What I hate is flipping between broadcasters as I have to not only change channels but also change output formats on the tivo and adjust volume levels on the surround sound. Worse still is an SD game on NFL ST, where I have to change to s-video in addition to all the above. I'll have carpal tunnel by the time the season ends.

Hey Mark a little RoundUp will solve that problem ;-)

I want to get the CBS HD channel turned on through Directv. I called directv today and they said I needed a waiver for the Cheyenne station and KCNC our local station. Does anyone have the contact information for the Cheyenne station. I did a search of the posts through Jan./Feb. but couldn't find any contact info, just people arguing with the CSR's. Thanks for your help

Everybody in Denver should get it without waivers. Talk to the HD or retention desks. The first contact CSRs don't have a clue.

Originally posted by Sportfantic
Does anyone have the contact information for the Cheyenne station. I did a search of the posts through Jan./Feb. but couldn't find any contact info, just people arguing with the CSR's. Thanks for your help

SF, their website is at: http://www.kgwn.tv/ (http://www.kgmn.tv)

I couldn't pick up KCNC yesterday, but KGWN was strong as ever.

....jc

SF,

D* is supposed to contact the station for you. Call'em back and get them to do their job. At some point you'll either receive a post card citing the reason you were denied or the channel will be activated.

SF,

The good news is that KGWN was great in getting the waiver approved and sent to DIRECTV quickly. You do not need one from KCNC as it is owned and operated by CBS, there is a blanket waiver for that in the DIRECTV database. You can try and call several times to get a different CSR who will just do it for you, bu the easy way is to contact KGWN, they will make the process smoother for you. I never even had to call back, DIRECTV just turned CBS n when they received the waiver.

Jeff

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
Hey Mark a little RoundUp will solve that problem ;-)

I was trying to come up with a solution that didn't require me to buy him a new lawnmower--maybe that will do it!:D

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
SF, their website is at: http://www.kgwn.tv/ (http://www.kgmn.tv)
I couldn't pick up KCNC yesterday, but KGWN was strong as ever.
jc

So, now you're getting KGWN, the CBS from Cheyenne???
Or just KWGN the WB from Lookout?

Originally posted by TommyK
So, now you're getting KGWN, the CBS from Cheyenne???
Or just KWGN the WB from Lookout?

Tommy,
My previous post was accurate. KDVR & KWGN are rarities at my location. I'm not the only one out here to get an analog signal from KGWN, it's common. Their digital signal, is one of the best that I get. However, since most people out here don't have ATSC receivers, I don't know if others can receive it(I would think that they can). Please remember, that I'm at 8,900' vs 'mile high'.

Possibly, you've been listening to the current administration's 'spin', and when confronted with honesty, you are confused :p.

Fox HD was added to my programming package today, according to the DirecTV web site, so it looks like we will get it with out calling here in the Denver DMA.

I looked at the D* site as well. Yup, there it is, listed in it's asterisk splendor.

No reference found describing the asterisk, though.

I looked at their channel list, not there yet.

Looked at the system at the house. Not there yet, either.

Patience, Grasshopper...

No Fox for me yet. All I have is CBS:

Network: CBS HD_*

Just a heads-up -- those expecting D* to automagically add FoxHD to your package may want to check their eligibilty. There's a FOX affiliate in Wyo (KLWY) that supposedly reaches my house with a grade b signal. Since I'm getting KDVR OTA nice n' strong I really don't care, but your mileage may vary. The eligibilty checker is located at http://directvdnseligibility.decisionmark.com/app/AddressEntry.asp

According to that DNS eligibility web site, I get KLWY as a grade-B here in Highlands Ranch also. I wonder if that is why FOX HD wasn't added automatically? For those that have had FOX_HD added already, what do you show on the eligibility site?

I do have CBS_HD through DirecTV already.

I have the Fox and asterisk thingy on mine too. Always have had the CBS one is well. Not sure why tho since all I sub to is NFL-ST and it's not like I was truly ever authorized to actually view the CBS HD feed anyway (since I dont have a base package).

No mention of the Fox feed from WY for me (down by Chatfield Reservoir) on the DNS site. Course that thing is prolly a joke anywayz.. listing KGWN for me as a Grade B signal from Cheyenne over a 100 miles away. And listing KUSA as Grade B instead of A.

AF,
Nice toy, thanx for the pointer. But, what's this got to do with HD? From what it's telling me, it's just looking for reception of the analog channels.
--------------------------------------------------------
ABC Eligible
CBS KCNC 4 Grade B (moderate signal)
NBC Eligible
FOX KXRM 28 Grade A (strong signal)
--------------------------------------------------------

ABC - Can't get analog signal very well, Digital is very good
CBS - For KCNC Analog is very good, Digital once in a while
NBC - Can't get either
FOX - They listed a 'translator' station(28), and it's analog, digital nope.

I'd like to know how they are figuring this out. Except for the translator station(28), even though the C/S stations are only 19 miles away, they picked out KCNC as a Grade B(53 miles). And, they don't tell me whether they are looking at Denver or C/S for ABC & NBC. It also doesn't list CBS Cheyenne, and I get analog pretty well, and digital very well.

I guess FOX_HD is out of the question?

....jc

Theres alot of things at play. When it comes to that site and as it pertains to HD, they're prolly just going by analog for now for pre-qualification because theres otherwise so may variables when it comes to H/DTV signals. Low power, etc.

As far as whether they're looking at Denver or C/S, they're looking at both (or as many cities as might pertain). Thats why some of us have 2 stations, in different cities listed for the same Network. If it says Eligible it just means no station from said Network is claiming you get a Grade B signal.

As far as how they even come up with analog to begin with, it's based on covergae maps that the stations use (which can be terribly inaccurate in the real world). Sometimes you can see these maps at a stations website.

As far as Fox HD for you, I wouldnt automatically rule it out but you might have to talk to that Fox station to get a waiver to get the digital channel from D*.

Yeah, I wouldn't "rule out" FOXHD as you can probably get a waiver from the station claiming you in their market. Keep in mind the link I posted doesn't distinguish between digital and analog and I believe that's because SHVA also fails to draw that distinction. That's what chaps my hide about the current NBC situation for folks around here. KUSA knows that many people are outside their low-powered signal yet they don't have to grant a waiver AND will win any "challenge" because their analog signal reaches the viewer.

Speaking of Fox HD, does anyone know if tonight's Sox/Yanks game will be broadcast in HD or not?

Or for that matter, the remaining LCS games and/or the World Series?

Well, I got my response from our local nbc channel regarding HD waivers. Because I can get their channel in HD on comcast (which I can't), and because a full power tower is right around the corner (right :rolleyes: ), they have decided not to grant me a waiver.

In my email to them, I specifically mentioned that I only wanted the waiver for HD because I am unable to get it through cable or antenna. So it's obvious that they sent me some sort of canned response. I am disappointed by the fact that they didn't even read my email - just sent out a blanket denial. My method of "protest" will be to stop watching news from their channel.

I asked this a while back and never got a response. If I moved up to my ski chalet in Winter Park, would DirecTv give me NBC-HD?? Or would I still need some sort of waiver?? Has anyone moved to the mountains and had luck with this??

Originally posted by ArvadaGeek
Speaking of Fox HD, does anyone know if tonight's Sox/Yanks game will be broadcast in HD or not?

Or for that matter, the remaining LCS games and/or the World Series? Yes. All the LCS games and the WS will be in HD. Although TitanTV doesn't show it as HD, tonights game is supposed to be. Unknown if D* will have the Fox HD West feed by game time (we'll know in an hour), but most of us can get it via KDVR anyway (as long as they don't screw it up).

Mike, have you tried your Winter Park address in the D* elidgibility page?

Ron,

No -- I guess I was waiting to hear from our local nbc station. Now I'm ready to give something else a try.

Originally posted by mknoebel
I asked this a while back and never got a response. If I moved up to my ski chalet in Winter Park, would DirecTv give me NBC-HD?? Or would I still need some sort of waiver?? Has anyone moved to the mountains and had luck with this??

Yes, moving the service address to a mountain town will get you around the waiver hassles.

Before you make the leap make sure your chalet address is eligible for DNS at http://directvdnseligibility.decisionmark.com/

Also, if you want to keep the Denver locals, make sure the address is still eligible for them at http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/LocalChannelsAction.do

PM me if you have any additional questions.

From the *D website:

*********************************************
Eligibilty review for the following:

Winter Park, CO 80482

Network Affiliate Channel Status
ABC Eligible
CBS KCNC 4 Grade B (moderate signal)
NBC Eligible
FOX Eligible

*******************************************

Looks like it should work!

I'm noticing a lot of audio hiccups on the Sox-Yankees pregame. No problem with the video. Anyone else notice this?

Originally posted by mknoebel
From the *D website:

*********************************************
Eligibilty review for the following:

Winter Park, CO 80482

Network Affiliate Channel Status
ABC Eligible
CBS KCNC 4 Grade B (moderate signal)
NBC Eligible
FOX Eligible

*******************************************

Since KCNC claims that address you probably won't be eligible for the NY & LA CBS SD feeds, but you should still get the LA HD feed.

For NBC (and Fox and ABC when they come online,) you should be eligible for both the NY and LA feeds if you want them.

The only "gotcha" I'm aware of is that if the WP address is in a former Pegasus area, you'll probably be assigned a new account number and lose your online account access until the back-end systems are fully integrated.

Any update on KDVR? Using santellaproductions.com(I appreciate the info!), it's ready to roll, just not at full power. Any other info, or should I contact them?

Thanx,
....jc

Originally posted by oxothuk
I'm noticing a lot of audio hiccups on the Sox-Yankees pregame. No problem with the video. Anyone else notice this?

I've been watching for a little while now and haven't noticed any audio hiccups. Looks and sounds great! The sound when the Yankees scored their runs was very stadium like.

I have a ranch home being built in Frederick/Firestone area. It should be completed by next February. Anyone have recommendations on the best way to get hdtv local channels?

I'm going to order Dish without locals since they have altitude. I love sports programming and the local teams, so they seem to have the best selection.

I'm going to look in the HOA and see if I can put an antennae up on the roof. The wife doesn't care, so I got her permission. I would like to find the most powerful smallest antennae, however if it needs to be bigger to get great reception, I'll do whatever it takes. :)

Thanks,

Mike

MikeCO,
Check out antennaweb.org to get a rough idea of what you can get and what you'll need.

New house? I love new houses! My advice, have it properly prewired. Audio/Video, OTA/satellite & computer networks, if you get that covered during construction, it's cheaper & you'll be set for a long time.

....jc

The picture from KDVR-DT is pretty good I think. And the game is getting interesting in the eighth inning!

Originally posted by weldon
The picture from KDVR-DT is pretty good I think. And the game is getting interesting in the eighth inning!

Wow, what a rally!

Originally posted by MikeCO
I have a ranch home being built in Frederick/Firestone area. It should be completed by next February. Anyone have recommendations on the best way to get hdtv local channels?

I'm going to order Dish without locals since they have altitude. I love sports programming and the local teams, so they seem to have the best selection.

I'm going to look in the HOA and see if I can put an antennae up on the roof. The wife doesn't care, so I got her permission. I would like to find the most powerful smallest antennae, however if it needs to be bigger to get great reception, I'll do whatever it takes. :)

Thanks,

Mike
Couple of things:

The HOA has no say in the matter (*) -- as long as your wife is cool with it, you can put it wherever you have to in order to get a good picture.

Since you'll be a bit out there, getting the locals will probably be a chore. Considering that DirecTV will probably have Denver HD locals via satellite next summer, you may want to make sure you're not locked into any long-term contract with Dish. I guarantee you that if/when the NHL resumes, D* will pick up Alititude Sports very quickly. No way they're going to lay down on this in Charlie's backyard. Of course, now that Comcast has some of the local HD channels, you may want to look into that as well.

(*) Well, they can tell you it has to put up in the most visibly unobtrusive position possible, but they can't do that to the detriment of getting a good signal.

Well, they can tell you it has to put up in the most visibly unobtrusive position possible, but they can't do that to the detriment of getting a good signal. I have never heard that. I thought it was that they cannot tell you how or where to put it at all. You are only limited by the FCC regs. (10') above your roof. Other than that, you are on your own.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
MikeCO,
Check out antennaweb.org to get a rough idea of what you can get and what you'll need.

New house? I love new houses! My advice, have it properly prewired. Audio/Video, OTA/satellite & computer networks, if you get that covered during construction, it's cheaper & you'll be set for a long time.

....jc

Oh yeah.. I'm getting 2 rg6's and 2 cat5e cables in each room. I'm also setting up three plasma tv's (mount w/cables), and two surround sound packages. I'm a big believer on planning ahead when it comes to wiring.

I need to figure out the ota/satellite somewhat soon though. I currently have directv but torn on which one to go with because of altitude. I'm glad to hear DTV is going to have hd locals, however they do charge quite a bit for hd channels. Since I am about 35 miles from the towers, maybe satellite would be my best option. If DTV is going to have altitude and hd locals, then I might as well get DTV. The hockey and basketball seasons would be almost over with anyways when we move in.

Thanks guys for your help.

Mike

Originally posted by santellavision
I have never heard that. I thought it was that they cannot tell you how or where to put it at all. You are only limited by the FCC regs. (10') above your roof. Other than that, you are on your own.
I guess I remembered wrong. Here's the FCC rules: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Looks like the only restrictions an HOA (or anyone else) can place on you are related to safety or historical preservation.

As to Altitude, obviously your only guarantee is to go with Dish Network. I'm not going to sweat too much about D* not carrying it for the next year or however long the NHL lockout drags on. That said, have you called D* to request Altitude yet? Let them know you're thinking about switching to Dish unless they get Altitude pronto.

It's up to 12 feet (not 10)above roofline (and more with proper approval), HOA's can ask that you minimize the appearance, but not to the detriment of reception. Exceptions are for historical districts and you can't place an antenna to present a safety hazard.

There is NO guidelines as to how large your OTA antenna can be, but your DBS dishes are limited to 1 meter in diameter for each dish (no limit on the number of dishes either). Again, the HOA can ask you to minimize their impact on appearance, but not to the detriment of reception.

Does that adequately cover all cases for you ?

Thanks scooper for the scoop.

Today's rocky mountain news (business section) has a story on Altitude/Comcast/D*. They make it sound as if a deal with D* is "close"...but since full power HD is also "close" I hesitate to even bring it up. If you want to read it : http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/business/article/0,1299,DRMN_4_3250032,00.html

Last time I spoke with Mr. Philand, he was optimistic about a D* deal moreso than a Comcast deal -- at least in the near term. I really can't see either carrier not having Altitude for much longer, though.

Hey Gang,

Check out Channel 88.

Fox!

Was the blue D* test screen, then right at 6pm, Shazam!

Let's hope tonight's game rivals last night's.

I did a little unscientific switching back and forth and I thought the PQ was basically equal between DirecTV and FOX 31-1. My STB takes a second or two to go back and forth between SAT and OTA so it's harder to get a direct comparison, but overall I was impressed with the PQ on D*.

While the PQ is good, I think it must be 720p, right? Unfortunately, my system doesn't like 720p as much as 1080i.

Originally posted by weldon
I did a little unscientific switching back and forth and I thought the PQ was basically equal between DirecTV and FOX 31-1. My STB takes a second or two to go back and forth between SAT and OTA so it's harder to get a direct comparison, but overall I was impressed with the PQ on D*.

While the PQ is good, I think it must be 720p, right? Unfortunately, my system doesn't like 720p as much as 1080i. I aggree. Both PQ was great (both 720p). But it is very annoying when you get the D* banner and music for several seconds now and again. Rumour has it, Fox HD may not be 24/7 yet -- they're still working out kinks.

Update: I guess it is no longer a rumour http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=457754

Hey guys thanks for your help on the contact information for the CBS station in Cheyenne. I got a letter today saying that I should be granted a waiver by KGWN-TV. Is this the same thing others got, because when I called Directv to ask them why CBS HD wasn't on, the guy told me, that it was just a letter and not the actually waiver. Thanks in advance for your help.

I didn't have FOX switch on for me tonight on D*. I had to call and apply for a waiver. I guess this is because Loveland overlaps with KLWY. I also applied for NBC. I already have CBS_* and never had to get a waiver. I get the following result from signal eligibility in 80537:

ABC KMGH 7 Grade A (strong signal)
CBS KCNC 4 Grade A (strong signal)
KGWN 5 Grade A (strong signal)
NBC KUSA 55,9 Grade B (moderate signal)
FOX KDVR 31,22 Grade B (moderate signal)
KLWY 27 Grade A (strong signal)

The weird thing is entered my old address in Fort Collins, which is about 14 miles NORTH in 80521. That came out "Grade A" for all stations. Is that kind of weird? Anyone know why?

I would love to see MLB playoffs in HD. They teased me Wednesday when I got the game on ch 88, then tonight the x721 message on 88 & 89. Anyone else in the same boat?

I am in the same boat with channel 89. I got the game on Wednesday, but got the 721 message yesterday. But you should be able to get Fox 31-1 OTA with your antenna. I get a real strong signal in Greeley.

Same thing here. Got the game from D* Wed but last night call x721 on both channels. Looked great on local Fox31-1.
Has anyone gotten a waiver from KLWY?
DNS shows me with a grade B from them. I would like to start the process before Fox goes full time.
Also is anyone getting sound on the 11-2,11-3,11-4,11-5,11-8 channels?

What are te 11- channels?

This is a bit off topic but there are several astute HD TiVo owners here so….

Sometime in the last 2 weeks to month my HD TiVo started to act “funny”. I never turn the TiVo OFF so when I come home and turn on the TV the TiVo has been tuned to the channel I watched night before. If I do not change the channel I get frequent video freezes and audio dropouts. The problem seems to go away once I change the channel. I never had this problem up until it started sometime in the last 2-4 weeks.

Also sometime in that timeframe channel 16 works on one tuner but not the other (and it’s a pain to get the good tuner to tune into ch 16). It used to be fine on both tuners. Regardless, I don’t have this problem on 31 or 35 (I do not get any other channels). I only watch one program on 16 so it’s not a huge deal but I guess I cannot rely on it being recorded since only one tuner gets enough signal strength.

I emailed DirecTv on this and they claim I need a software update to fix these issues. I was under the impression I had received a software update that started these issues. My version of S/W is 3.1.5d xxxxxxx (I don’t remember all the numbers after the 3.1.5d). They claim the latest software is 3.11.5d (nothing else should follow this number).

So has anyone here had similar freezing/dropout problems or had one tuner work but not the other? What’s your latest software?

3.11.5d? There's a 3.1.1d, but that's for SD TiVos. HD TiVos current software is 3.1.5d.

I had a couple of problems about two weeks ago. Now this is huge for me. In the four years I've had TiVo, I can't recall any missed recordings that were TiVo's fault. Two weeks ago, I had two primetime evenings completely unrecorded. The first one may have been because I disconnected the twinbreeze fan and I let the machine overheat. But when it happened again a few days later (with the fan working, and cooler temps inside), I started to wonder. The symptoms were different on each of those days: the first time (a Wednesday), the screen was full of little MPG blocks of colour. It looked like a mixed up jigsaw puzzle. The 2nd time (a Monday), I came home late to find a solid grey screen, and nothing recorded for the previous several hours.

In both cases, a reboot brought the HD TiVo back to life. I haven't seen anything funky like that for a couple of weeks now -- and I'm still on the 3.1.5d software version. D* has been screwing with their HD channels a lot lately - I can't help but wonder if all that mucking is somehow freaking our HD TiVos out.

As for only one tuner working -- that's very odd. I'd open up the case and make sure both cables coming out of the OTA splitter are securely fastened. To check signal strength, you can press the "right" and "info" buttons on the front panel of the HD TiVo and it'll show you live numbers for the currently tuned stations. If one tuner is tuned to a D* channel, it'll be normal to see 0 as one of your OTA signal strengths. It might take a lot of fiddling with channels on each tuner, but you should be able to isolate channel 16 on each of your OTA tuners and see what the signal strength readings are. If it turns out you have a faulty OTA tuner, you'd have to call D* to arrange for a replacement.

<end hijack>

Originally posted by dr_mal
3.11.5d? There's a 3.1.1d, but that's for SD TiVos. HD TiVos current software is 3.1.5d. I didn't believe what he was saying when it came to the latest software version. Especially when he said it was released to fix the HDNet dropouts. From my limited reading at TiVoCommunity it looks like 3.1.5d was released to fix the HDNet problem. And, that was the beginning of my problems, or so it seems. I can live with the stupid video freezes and dropouts until the channel is changed - that is until it records a program with all those freezes and dropouts. I can't come up with a plausible explanation of how a SW update would screw up signal levels on one tuner but it's only KUSA so I can live with it. Last time I had D* send me a replacement receiver it was defective and I needed a second and even that was defective. I am not anxious to go down that path again. You've confirmed my fears...once again D* tech support is full of crap. Thanks.

Geof:

You might want to check out the HD Tivo thread on the Tivo Community forum:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=36

People have posted some issues after the upgrade. I don't have any problems at all so I don't pay much attention to them, but maybe you can find something similar to what you are seeing. I do know that people reported not being able to pick up some of the satellite transponders after the upgrade, but I haven't seen anything about OTA problems. On my Tivo, I can pick up KMGH reliably on tuner 2, but it won't lock on tuner 1 at all. It has always been that way, before and after the upgrade. Weird.

Check out the Denver DTV website for something wild & new!!

Denver DTV Website (http://www.denverdtv.info)

Thanks Dennis. I glanced thru their forum a bit and I found posts with folks having similar video freezes and audio dropouts. I never had this issue with the previous software but what can I do other than get a new box.....

I'm getting closer to dropping D* and picking up Comcast. D* just isn't keeping up with the HD race (for example Starz! HD, TNT HD and Cinemax HD are all available on Comcast but not D*). I am not going to get in the mode of paying for LD (low definition - heavily compressed D* crap) when I can get an HD signal on Comcast for similar money. When my one year requirement is up I am going to pull the trigger if D* hasn't caught up.

Ernie, great idea! I bought a sweatshirt. Too bad you don't get anything -- I would'vr bought two!

Thanks Ron!
I thought somebody would have said something by now! I think they're kinda cool. I found this website that let's you open a virtual store and offer T-shirts, mugs etc. It's easy to do, all you have to do is upload your logo and then they walk you through it. I had the site up in 15 minutes.

There is no charge. You can offer the items for what ever price you want (Over their price to make them) So, I just have it set at the base price. I have a site for my company, Santella Productions too.
http://users.frii.com/santella/ebay/tshirt001.gif

Is KCNC broadcasting their HD signal? I went out of town for a week, came back and it was gone! I still recieve the other HD channels just like before I left.

Thank you,
Mike

Yes, KCNC is showing the Denver game in HD. I'm just up for the "halftime stretch".

Originally posted by mdicki02
Is KCNC broadcasting their HD signal?

I don't always get their signal, but loud & clear today!

....jc

Originally posted by Scooper
It's up to 12 feet (not 10)above roofline (and more with proper approval), HOA's can ask that you minimize the appearance, but not to the detriment of reception. Exceptions are for historical districts and you can't place an antenna to present a safety hazard.

There is NO guidelines as to how large your OTA antenna can be, but your DBS dishes are limited to 1 meter in diameter for each dish (no limit on the number of dishes either). Again, the HOA can ask you to minimize their impact on appearance, but not to the detriment of reception.

Does that adequately cover all cases for you ?

I'll most likely have to deal with the HOA after we move in. I don't think there will be a problem since you guys showed me I have a right to put up an antennae. I'm not sure what kind of reception I will have though from my home, so I'll look into that first. From reading the posts it seems like D* will carry Altitude, so maybe I'll stick with that instead, however I've got 2-3 months to decide. Waiting is a good thing... :)

Thanks guys for your help,

Mike

CARE Official Kidnapped: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2004/10/16/672252-ap.html

For a moment there I thought SCARE was in IRAQ protesting towers....

(I'm Geof and I approved this message).

Disclaimer - I really need to vent, and this is the only place where people will actually understand and feel my pain, so if you don't care to hear my rant you might just want to skip this one.

As I had posted about before, I'm moving into this fancy-schmancy loft-style apartment complex in lodo that is wired for D* only, through Qwest. I've got to imagine the owners get paid nicely for allowing this monopoly on my TV, phone, and internet service.

So a few weeks ago I called to get hooked up, and the CSR tells me that the apartment isn't wired for HD at all. As an HD freak I call up the apartment and ask if I can put up my own dish. No dice. The apartment lady I talked to said she thought they could get HD, but of course isn't exactly up to date in technology. She said she would check into it and let me know. Of course I never heard back from her. Today I called Qwest again, spoke to a different CSR, who told me the same thing, the place is not HD capable. Called the apartment back, spoke with another lady there who was equally clueless. I asked how old the apartments are, she tells me 1-2 years. How in the hell can they wire those without HD if it was done within the last 1-2 years? She didn't seem to care when I told her my $2000 TV would be pretty much wasted.

So the bottom line is that not only am I denied a choice in providers, the only provider I can get is not HD capable. I guess I can buy an OTA receiver for a few locals, which I'm sure I will since I'm an HD fiend. Having had HD for over two years now, I am quite pissed to see my selection slashed. Thank you for reading my sob story.

I'm Symbios and I approve this message... :p

Wow, that does suck. Maybe you should stop living in fancy-schmancy apartments? (LOL) My friend moved into a pretty crappy apartment building in Aurora and even they have HD. It's Comcast though, so that's pretty easy to upgrade to HD I guess.

I've got a friend who bought a brand-new condo last year that was prewired by Qwest for D*. With a good old fashioned, circa 1994, single-satellite dish. And for that, he gets to pay Qwest an extra $5 on top of his D* bill. :rolleyes:

He's been fighting that windmill for months now, and they just don't get it. (And BTW, the fact that he can't pick up D*'s HDTV is probably the only thing preventing him from going HD right now)

If you have a southern view, you can mount your own triple-satellite dish on your own property -- a balcony railing or just in a pot of concrete on your balcony. That's protected by the FCC the same as if you were in your own house. Unfortunately, there's no provision to have a proper dish installed on the roof :(

Why can't you get HD. Is it the wrong type of dish setup? I might just plug in the HDTV reciever and see what happens.

It's because Qwest installs the single-satellite dishes in their MDU (multiple dwelling units) contracts. All the HD (well, for all intents and purposes, all the HD) on D* is on 110 or 119, not 101 which is where the single-satellite dishes point.

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
Well, I just called the leasing office again and talked to a different person. Unfortunately he said the same thing, the building is wired for D* through Qwest, and they have their own satellite dishes, so I won't need one. I've never heard of such a thing, but that's what he said. So that means that I have to use them and pay whatever they want to charge. To top it off, I have to use crappy DSL instead of a cable modem. Wonder if they'll force me into getting a home phone line for the DSL. My hide would then be officially chapped.

How are they working that? I assume that they are providing you a coax connection to a multi-switch, and you provide the receiver? If so, it's recon time!

Dunt, dunt-dunt-dunt, dunt, dunt-dunt-dunt...(to the theme of Mission Impossible)

Wearing black leotards, black stocking cap, and tenny runners...

Your mission, should you decide to accept it - Check out what they have on the roof...
Do they have a multi-sat dish(I'm, assuming 1 dish per building)?
____If so, is there a Sat C LNB?
______If so, they had no clue, and you are set!
______If not, next Mission, add one!
____If not, are the cables labeled, so you can find yours?
______If so, add a new triple LNB dish & connect it to your cable!
______If not, at 3 am, replace the dish, with a triple LNB dish, paint the
________existing dish Pink, with green flowers, glue a melted audio tape
________to it, and hang it on the leasing office door.:cool:

Good Luck!
....jc

Unfortunately, it's not that easy.

(The rest of this is based on my friend's situation -- which was also setup by Qwest in a MDU last year)

It's a single-LNB dish. The 2 outputs from it are sent to multiswitches as well as stackers to provide 2 cable drops to each tenant, each of which can be destacked to provide dual tuner support at each of the cable drop locations.

It's my understanding that multi-sat outputs can't be stacked onto a single cable, so replacing the dish would mess up a lot of other tenants' signals. Not to mention making it impossible to use both tuners in a DirecTiVo.

Symbios, you're right, I really shouldn't be moving into a fancy-schmancy apartment. I wanted to buy something, but I question the housing market in Denver right now. If I didn't have a roommate moving in with me that likes this place, I would likely go so far as to change apartments since I haven't signed the lease. I know it's just HD, but I have grown accustomed to its udder glory. Most folks just don't understand this "hobby" of ours.

TotallyPreWired, that was pretty hilarious. I actually had that same thought going through my mind, you just layed out the plan.

dr_mal, I had a sneaking suspicion that I'm hosed anyway, and you pretty much confirmed that. I figured if anywhere, someone on this board would know what the deal is. I appreciate the info very much. You do provide me with some hope though, telling me that I'm protected by the FCC if I want to put up a dish. My view is West, so I think I would be able to point it South as well. (Don't they go somewhat South-West?) The problem there is that the apartment people said I can't put my own dish up when I asked about it. From what I understand they can tell their residents that they can't put up a dish, and I hope to be proven wrong.

So tell me more about this FCC protection, how do you suggest I go about keeping the apartment folks from freaking out on me if I throw up a dish?

Still holding out hope...

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
As an HD freak I call up the apartment and ask if I can put up my own dish. No dice.

Why not, you don't have any south facing views from your balcony/deck/exclusive use area?

See http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html for antenna (including DBS dish) rules.

Well that's freakin awesome! As long as I can get the D* signal from my west-facing apartment, I think I'm set! I just can't decide if I should print that out and shove it in someone's face when they tell me to take it down, or to go ahead and call the FCC tomorrow and let them know about the "unlawful restriction" that my future landlord has. Here is my favorite part:

Q: If my association, building management, landlord, or property owner provides a central antenna, may I install an individual antenna?

A: Generally, the availability of a central antenna may allow the association, landlord, property owner, or other management entity to restrict the installation by individuals of antennas otherwise protected by the rule. Restrictions based on the availability of a central antenna will generally be permissible provided that: (1) the person receives the particular video programming or fixed wireless service that the person desires and could receive with an individual antenna covered under the rule (e.g., the person would be entitled to receive service from a specific provider, not simply a provider selected by the association); (2) the signal quality of transmission to and from the person's home using the central antenna is as good as, or better than, than the quality the person could receive or transmit with an individual antenna covered by the rule; (3) the costs associated with the use of the central antenna are not greater than the costs of installation, maintenance and use of an individual antenna covered under the rule; and (4) the requirement to use the central antenna instead of an individual antenna does not unreasonably delay the viewer's ability to receive video programming or fixed wireless services.


Oh, I'd say their BS system doesn't give me the "particular video programming" that I desire. Namely, High Defidamnition!!!

Thanks for the link ADent, I may be saved thanks to the extensive knowledge of this forum!

EDIT: Just found out that my apartment actually faces north-west. Hosed again.

EDIT: Just found out that my apartment actually faces north-west. Hosed again.

Ouch, that's gotta hurt! LOL

Sheesh, I can't believe how many people don’t know about that great law. My friend in Aurora used to have a dish and they made him take it down because it "Stuck out too far" and he did. I told him about the Telecommunications act, but he didn't want to bother with it! Man, if I were him, I'd raise hell!

Yeah, I was really looking forward to letting them know about their unlawful restriction.

I might be able to switch to an apartment that faces south, towards the enclosed courtyard/pool, but that won't guarantee that I can get a D* signal anyway. Not sure if that's worth giving up a mountain view.

I'll probably end up with just an OTA receiver. Maybe I'll watch less TV now. OK, probably not.

EDIT: Just found out that my apartment actually faces north-west. Hosed again.

Hope that you still have the black leotards & stocking cap.

The mission has changed(happens a lot in this business).

1. Obtain some white dual RG-6 coax cable, a triple LNB dish, a method
to mount it, a pair of Z99 agent communication sets, and an associate agent for assistance(We'll call her Helga).
2. Paint the coax cable the color of the outside of your building.
3. Make your way to the roof(stealth may be necessary)
4. Mount the dish.
5. Locate a spot above your apartment, and toss the cable over the roof to Helga.
6. As you connect the wiring at the dish, Helga connects the receiver.
7. Using the Z99's for communication, obtain the best signal and lock the dish down.
8. Proceed back(using stealth) to your apartment, and enjoy the view(and possibly Helga too).
9. Your interaction with Helga at this time is beyond the scope of this mission.

....jc

ROTFLMAO

Need to look into some invisible paint for the dish. There was a movie a couple of years ago that painted a fighter jet making it invisible.

Originally posted by dr_mal
It's because Qwest installs the single-satellite dishes in their MDU (multiple dwelling units) contracts. All the HD (well, for all intents and purposes, all the HD) on D* is on 110 or 119, not 101 which is where the single-satellite dishes point. Sat A at 101° has channel 83 KNBC-DT Los Angeles but our local KUSA NBC won't grant waivers, so that's immaterial. I think it is also carrying the MLB LCS games on Fox HD, but who knows where it'll be when Fox HD goes 24/7. Besides, you should be able to get the networks OTA.


Boy, sometimes it takes me a while to catch up on my thread reading!

Now that's priceless. But for some reason the name Helga doesn't paint the picture that I'm looking for, maybe more of a Katarina...

The apartment lady left me a message today, she actually did check into this for me. She talked to Qwest, my new corporate enemy #1. Pretty much confirmed what I knew about the round dish, but did offer a bit of hope. They're at least aware that their system blows, and are going to start trying to install oval dishes (triple lnbs) in some of the places they have "wired." (Or "hosed" as I prefer)

Guess I'll just put that new DLP or LCD on hold now.

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
Now that's priceless. But for some reason the name Helga doesn't paint the picture that I'm looking for, maybe more of a Katarina... Or maybe something super sexy like "7 of 9".
Oh never mind I do watch too much TV.....:eek:

Rookies! Ya set up a mission for a fellow forum member, and they think that I'm going to send them a 2nd class agent! No trust anymore? Too late! She's been reassigned! I guess you'll have to settle for SD now.:)

___H e l g a___
http://panelcrafters.net/helga.jpg

I have the need for a mission in Douglas County (dont know what but I will come up with one), needing to request your agent. Thanks in advance.

Anyone know what tp and sat channel 89 is on? I'm getting mostly "Searching for satellite signal" on 89 and no where else that I can tell. Luckily I get KDVR no problem. Had no problems with 89 until tonight.

Hey Ron did you get your Denver dtv sweatshirt yet? I got some shirts and they are nice quality!

Just saw a promo for a story on 9News at 10 tomorrow (Thursday) night called "HDTV 101."

From the ad it appears to focus on choosing a TV, but maybe they'll mention the tower situation. Might be worth a watch.

Really? Cool.

I don't know how much more they could say about the LCGII tower though. I mean they got the green light to build it and it should be completed around fall 2005.

It's finally going to happen! :D

I mean they got the green light to build itWell, it's more like a flashing red light. They cannot start any 'real' construction until Judge Jackson lifts the injunction.

Originally posted by santellavision
Well, it's more like a flashing red light. They cannot start any 'real' construction until Judge Jackson lifts the injunction. Actually the green light was given 15 months ago, but LCG is so slow to break ground, the light turned yellow.

Ernie, got an email ship confirmation -- maybe get it today or tomorrow.

Regardless of green light, red light, yellow light, or stop sign there is nothing being built now and with winter fast approaching I doubt any significant progress will be made to support any on-air transmissions from lookout until 2006 at the earliest. And that's baring any future SCARE litigations which I certainly would not rule out. "Those people" will be trying to kill LCG even after the tower is built and up and running.....just ask KDVR (and probably KWGN).

EDIT: Does anyone know how our PBS crew is making out on Morrison?
Can anyone from KRMA give us an update?

I think "flashing red" is the best analogy; it doesn't matter what the commisioners decide as long as the injunction is in place, and the matter has not even been scheduled for court time as of yet, and you can bet SCARE will further appeal on the basis of "pending medical studies."

Originally posted by santellavision
Well, it's more like a flashing red light. They cannot start any 'real' construction until Judge Jackson lifts the injunction. For which we haven't even seen a hearing date yet. Even though the vote was two months ago.

Good grief.

After watching their Hearing presentations... I would think they should plead Insanity! ;)

My bet is the judge will throw it out again and send it back to the new commissioners, once the elections are over.

Of course, these days I'm much more cynical than I used to be about all of this...hence the 2 big and one little antennas and on my roof to feed 3 receivers, rather than just the one antenna...

Originally posted by markdl
My bet is the judge will throw it out again and send it back to the new commissioners, once the elections are over.

If that happens there is no need to even have any more hearings the decision has already been made. See quote below.
QUOTE START
September 7, 2004: Lake Cedar Group is using every means possible to gain legal approval from Judge Jackson before two new County Commissioners are elected in November, 2004. All Commissioner candidates, the City of Golden and CARE are committed to prevent construction of the Supertower.
QUOTE END

Originally posted by Lawood
If that happens there is no need to even have any more hearings the decision has already been made. See quote below.
QUOTE START
September 7, 2004: Lake Cedar Group is using every means possible to gain legal approval from Judge Jackson before two new County Commissioners are elected in November, 2004. All Commissioner candidates, the City of Golden and CARE are committed to prevent construction of the Supertower.
QUOTE END


This is all unfolding like a cheap dime-store novel. Come on, we all know how it's going to turn out (see above), at least in the short term. We're just in denial. It's clearly the plan to get this sent back to the new commissioners. The wildcard is Judge Jackson. If this gets sent back, it will be after Nov. The judge's docket is probably full for quite some time anyway, and clearly many of the participants are not interested in seeing it come up before the new commissioners are in.

Makes you wonder why LCG isn't pushing to get it heard sooner rather than later.

Oh well, this thread ruined my day :(

On another note, it is interesting (to me) that I am no longer able to pick up KDVR with my antenna that is pointing toward downtown. I have to switch to my "lookout facing" antenna. This wasn't the case before they went HD. I mean this happened within days of the switchover (I was not here, so can't be any more precise than that). I wonder if their signal is a little weaker, or if my receiver needs a stronger signal with the extra bandwidth or something. I can still get WB 2 on both antennas.

Not too much of a biggie, but since I am cheap, and was overly optimistic way back when (I guess I shouldn't have listened to those KMGH lawyers), I bought a manual switch instead of a remote controlled switch. So now I have to use my 11 year-old "remote" (who sometimes is a little cranky about it) to actually switch the antenna input when I surf between CBS and FOX on Sundays :)

Cheers, Greg

Originally posted by Lawood
If that happens there is no need to even have any more hearings the decision has already been made. See quote below.
QUOTE START
September 7, 2004: Lake Cedar Group is using every means possible to gain legal approval from Judge Jackson before two new County Commissioners are elected in November, 2004. All Commissioner candidates, the City of Golden and CARE are committed to prevent construction of the Supertower.
QUOTE END Well that is what I think might just happen then as I agree with Mark. The delay does not bode well. Personally, I would not be surprised if we don't see full power until 2008 or beyond (from where I do not know).

Wow, this thread is really bringing me down.

But on the plus side, my new Channel master 3671 arrived today! I yanked down my piece of crap Radio Shack VU120XR and put this baby up there (it's HUGE!).

I can now get KCNC's digital signal, which is amazing because I live about 45 miles from Denver! Fantastic antenna.

Originally posted by gkanders
On another note, it is interesting (to me) that I am no longer able to pick up KDVR with my antenna that is pointing toward downtown. I have to switch to my "lookout facing" antenna. This wasn't the case before they went HD. I mean this happened within days of the switchover (I was not here, so can't be any more precise than that). I wonder if their signal is a little weaker, or if my receiver needs a stronger signal with the extra bandwidth or something. I can still get WB 2 on both antennas.
Greg, I also have intermittent reception problems on KDVR with my Republic-facing antenna which picks up KWGN with no problems. At least for me, though, this has been a problem from the beginning and not related to the HD switch. I really believe the problem is that my Republic-facing antenna gets much of its KDVR signal via reflections, and the SIR-T151 just isn't that good at handling multi-path. The signal strength meter in the SIR-T151 always shows a very strong signal for KDVR when I can get it, which can suddenly drop to zero without warning. IIRC, you have the SIR-T150 which is even older, plus being further south than I am you have a bigger angle between Republic and Lookout. Don't recall the exact numbers, but KWGN is broadcasting a bit higher power level than KDVR; it may be just enough more to make the difference.

Originally posted by markdl
My bet is the judge will throw it out again and send it back to the new commissioners, once the elections are over. Sadly, that is my prediction also. Since he has already proved willing to stop the tower for specious reasons, why would anyone think he won't do it again? And all he has to do is find some pretext for reconsideration, then let the new commissioners do the dirty work.

My only real hope is that HD has become enough bigger over the past few years to create some countervailing pressure against the NIMBYs in Golden.

You guys have any recommendation for a relatively cheap OTA receiver for me? At least I'll still be able to watch CBS and FOX HD football. (Which is the best HD anyway IMHO)

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
You guys have any recommendation for a relatively cheap OTA receiver for me? At least I'll still be able to watch CBS and FOX HD football. (Which is the best HD anyway IMHO) you can usually find the Samsung SIR-T151 on ebay for about $150. works for me.

I got the Samsung SIR-T100 for $80 on Ebay, but it’s quite a dinosaur.
So I’d definitely look into the SIR-T151. I’d stay away from the SIR-T351; it seems to have a few issues.

If you want a new box, then the Samsung SIR-T451 is a good choice (if you can get your hands on one). It goes for around $250. Or you could get USDTV’s box for about $200, but its quality is questionable.

I's look for a deal on a Zenith LST-4200A but it's normally around $350.

After repeated emails to DirecTV about the frequent video freezes and sound dropouts I had an email from them today telling me that the latest is 3.1.5e. Sure enough I forced a called and rebooted the TiVo and now have 3.1.5e. We'll see if this solves my problems. KUSA is still good on one tuner and bad on the other but it's probably marginal signal level causing that.

Originally posted by Symbios
Or you could get USDTV’s box for about $200, but its quality is questionable. I don't know why you say that; the USDTV box has far fewer issues than most other OTA STBs.

It's only shortcoming is it only has component video outs; otherwise it's one of the more robust STBs I've tried and setup is literally a breeze compared to others I've set up.

Add its sub-$200 price at Wal-Mart, and it's quite the deal if all you want is a basic STB; much cheaper than its closest competitor, the Motorola HDT-101 available at Circuit City (and $100 less, as well...)

Scratch that. Found a few more reviews and it seems to be a good receiver. Only a couple of people have had problems with it. Sorry about that.

A few people have said the tuner is a little on the weak side though. It's using an ATI chip right now, but they will start using the new LG chip in a few months, so that should improve things a bit.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll probably buy one this week. I'm leaning towards the 151, I had a 160 before and liked it. The simplicity of just going to Wally World and getting a new one for $200 is tempting though.

Yeah, I almost went for it, but that whole weak tuner thing worries me. So I think I’m going to go for an LG 4200A or maybe I’ll wait for the 5th Gen chips. I don’t know.

Altitude Sports on Directv?

I was recording the nuggets game on one of the league pass channels 724 with Tivo, then when I went to check if it got recorded there was a Altitude logo on the screen at the begginning of the recording for just a second, and there is audio, but all I got was "Entertainment".(Altitude Sports and Entertainment)

Then the logo leaves the screen, and the Directv logo comes on but no game is on and the Tivo stops recording after 6 minutes. Did anybody try to watch the nuggets game or see this? Has D* signed a deal and their just waiting for the regular season to start? I thought it was strange to see that, and somebody here might know whats going on, with all the knowledge on this board.

They were probably carrying the Altitude broadcast on the league pass channel. The game was likely blacked out in the Denver market and therefore you couldn't record it. No Altitude network for us on D* yet. I hope they get a deal signed soon!

Do any of you have any recommendations for someone who can properly calibrate a Hitachi 51F500 in the Denver area?

I've heard good things about Bill Gambrell but I have not used him yet. Let us know if you decide to give him a shot and how it goes.

http://www.homecentric.com/video.htm

Originally posted by x1hdtv
Do any of you have any recommendations for someone who can properly calibrate a Hitachi 51F500 in the Denver area? All I can suggest is you ask any potential calibrator if they have experience with your set, or if not that particular model at least other Hitachi's. You don't want someone plowing new ground with your set....(well at least I wouldn't).

I was wondering since the digital TV issue is a much larger issue than just Jefferson County could the state step in and take out of the hands of the locals?

Why doesn't LCG stations just say well lets just put the DT on our current towers? Correct me if I am wrong but they don't need to have a zoning variance to do that.

Mad as hell in Loveland.

They'd need to put new transmitters on their existing towers, which would require rezoning.

Theoretically, the FCC could step in, but in reality that's not going to happen.

Rezoning or just a building permit like if I wanted to add AC to my house?

A permit for house doesn't require a public hearing....

Why is the state not able to step in? Should I contact my local rep?

Rezoning. The land the towers are on aren't zoned for TV towers. They're allowed to stay forever as long as they aren't physically altered.

SO how did KDVR get by? and WB can't remember the call letters? Didn't they have this issue to but decided to stay away from the super tower.

It bugs me that in a democracy that 50-100 people can screw up millions of peoples options for TV reception.

This is a very long story covered numerous times in this very long 4 part thread but to summarize:

KDVR:
Is not zoned in the same manner as the LCG stations. They are not non-conforming and were able to put up their digital signals. Regardless SCARE has attempted numerous times to get them to cease and desist.

KWGN:
Is using a second tower on their property. They are only broadcasting at 1/2 power and were able to do that because of a "loophole" (at least SCARE considered it a loophole) in JeffCo's zoning reg's. They basically lost the argument that Digital TV is the same service as analog TV so are stuck at 1/2 power.

The rest (or the Lookout stations):
All were zoned "Legal non conforming". Basically that means their property is not zoned for telecommunications use but because they were operating before the zoning changed they were grandfathered in. Now if they wish to make any changes they must meet new zoning requirements which requires that their property be rezoned, which requires JeffCo approval. That was once given by the JeffCo BCC (Board of County Commissioners) then partially (and effectively) taken away by a JeffCo District County Judge who ruled that the BCC did not follow all of JeffCo's prescribed rules. The BCC met a second time, had hearings, and re-voted in favor of the new tower a 2nd time but the judge has not yet re-heard the case. The classic thinking is that won't happen before the newly elected BCC takes office and if that is the case LCGII will die because the new commissioners (whoever wins) do not want it passed.

SCARE is a group of highly motivated individuals "concerned" about health and interference effects of RF and have argued, fought, and litigated every move to improve the tower situation on Lookout. The SCARE attorney is on record saying that they want (and will not rest until) ALL towers are removed from Lookout. The fact that recent health studies show that Lookout residents actually have fewer incidences of cancer is irrelevant. The fact that they claim RF can cause a lack of sleep (which is totally unsubstantiated and lacking any inkling of reality) is irrelevant. The fact that they are supposedly concerned about health effect yet continue to raise their children in such a “dangerous" environment is irrelevant. The fact that they can lie and misconstrue the facts is totally irrelevant. What they want, which we all can see, is for the towers to be removed so their property values will skyrocket. After all, the only mountain along the immediate front range with any sort of development is on Lookout so they'd be enjoying HUGE property value increases if the towers were ever removed. But you guessed it, that’s irrelevant too because it’s all about health and interference.

Thank you for the summation I did go back and read the threads. I find it very interesting still that since the towers are not just a local issue that I haven't seen anything this political season to override the SCARE legal tactics and put this to bed so to speak. Thanks again

So then the logical question is, does anyone have a plan of action?

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
So then the logical question is, does anyone have a plan of action?

There are lots of plans (esp if you go back and read the threads). Problem is everybody is passing the buck to someone else and no real motivation to fix anything.

The big stations have not seen the loss in revenue from NTSC only (or low power ATSC) broadcasting as significant and the FCC has put very little pressure on anybody to do anything.

OK - so let's say that "activist" judge says they still can't build the tower.

What are the options then ?
Build on another mountain ? A 2000 ' tower (or several) out in the plains ?

Because I don't see very many options otherwise...

Why will not the FCC step in? Just curious.

Originally posted by Symbios
Yeah, I almost went for it, but that whole weak tuner thing worries me. So I think I’m going to go for an LG 4200A or maybe I’ll wait for the 5th Gen chips. I don’t know. First off, Wal*Mart has a great return policy, so it's no risk.

Second, I haven't found the tuner on the USDTV box to be weak at all - certainly no worse than any other STB out there I've tried.

Frankly I think the hype over the "5th Generation" chipset is largely that; if you hook it up and can receive the channels, no big deal; if not, return it and wait for the new chipset.

But there's no need to wait just in anticipation of the new chipset....

Originally posted by PAW
Why will not the FCC step in? Just curious. The FCC largely stays out of all issues, and this one is likely to be considered a "local zoning" issue in which they will decline to participate.

Now what will be interesting is if Congress finally sets a hard date for the end of NTSC broadcasting and no full power ATSC tower is available by that time; then you may finally see the local stations raise a fuss (though they may take the KMGH "If you want to see us, get cable" argument, which IMHO should have gotten their "public trustee" license yanked years ago...)

I recently heard that the FCC extended NTSC broadcasting until 85% of the households had digital capable receivers. Maybe that always been the ruling. Oh well, I wonder if it will ever happen in my lifetime?

The loss of KMGH channel 7 wouldn't be a biggie to me. The line up is the pits any way.

What are the options then ?
Build on another mountain ? A 2000 ' tower (or several) out in the plains ?

Because I don't see very many options otherwise...Building out on the plains has two problems. One is the FAA. Two many airports out that way for a big tower. And two, there is the problem of the mountians causing a big reception reflection problem for the Denver area.

Wow, this thread took off like a rocket.

First off, Wal*Mart has a great return policy, so it's no risk.

Haha, you don't have to tell me about Wal Mart's return policy! Nearly every electronic item I bought from Wally world has been returned at least once! (I seem to be very unlucky when it comes to electronic items)

I think I'm going to wait anyway. I'm going to try to get the latest box I can get before manufacturers start making boxes that respond to the broadcast flag. Plus it's no biggie for me to wait, because I only get three Digital stations out here anyway (I'm 40+ miles away from Denver).

Deja Vu all over again... :)

Welcome to everyone joining us in progress. You've missed alot, yet seemingly nothing at all...

Originally posted by santellavision
Building out on the plains has two problems. One is the FAA. Two many airports out that way for a big tower. And two, there is the problem of the mountians causing a big reception reflection problem for the Denver area.

The airports excuse doesn't wash - if it did, there would be NO towers anywhere. And I KNOW better than that - There is no other way in some parts of the country than a 2000 feet tower. Granted - it's more expensive to build a 2K tower with repeaters in the mountains than a 500 foot (or less!) on top of a mountain.

OTOH - the reflections from the mountains might.

But seriously - I think your stations need to come up with a solution that doesn't involve Lookout, since it doesn't look promising.

I still don't understand why the State government can't step in and say this is not a local zoning issue and override the county authority. After all the zoning issues are only local because they typically only affect people locally. This tower issue is not local it is regional by default.

I agree that if channel 7 doesn't care then yank the license......

Originally posted by markdl
Deja Vu all over again... :)

Welcome to everyone joining us in progress. You've missed alot, yet seemingly nothing at all...

How true!! :)

Originally posted by Scooper
The airports excuse doesn't wash - if it did, there would be NO towers anywhere. And I KNOW better than that - There is no other way in some parts of the country than a 2000 feet tower. Granted - it's more expensive to build a 2K tower with repeaters in the mountains than a 500 foot (or less!) on top of a mountain.

OTOH - the reflections from the mountains might.

But seriously - I think your stations need to come up with a solution that doesn't involve Lookout, since it doesn't look promising. The airport is more of a problem than it might seem. The problem is that because of the airport location any tall tower would have to be well North of the city, or well South of the city. A Southerly location would create problems for coverages to the North and likewise a Northerly location would create problems to the South. And, as Ernie suggested, it would create problems for mountain residents because even a 2000' tower would not be as tall as an 800' tower sitting on Lookout. Asides from multipath, there's another (perhaps too mundane) issue that with transmitters scattered about on the Eastern Plains and also on Morrison which way does anyone point their antennas (since they're basically in opposite directions).

What SCARE has been arguing all this time is that (in their "minds") the "ideal" location is on Squaw Mountain. SCARE consistently overlooks the fact that many residents living on the plains right next to the foothills would be shadowed by Squaw and unable to receive any signals from Squaw. In fact they argue that shadowing is not a significant hindrance to Squaw and is being used only as an excuse for wanting to stay on Lookout. All I can say to that is if the stations did move to Squaw I would get none of them (my TV's and tuners see absolutely no hint of any signals from the lone station operating on Squaw). Shadowing is real for me, and many others, but this is one of those instances where SCARE misconstrues the facts to their own advantage.

The fact is the stations will stay on Lookout forever. If LCGII dies then the stations will convert their existing NTSC setups to ATSC and stay put. However, this action will result in a humongous legal battle since the stations believe they have every right to do so whereas SCARE says they cannot do so.

In the meantime the FCC is letting the stations live with the current situation since the FCC is "sensitive to their plight". The FCC is not watching out for the interests of the Denver community and is nothing more than a puppet agency deferring to the whims of our local stations. KMGH should have been forced to move their toy transmitter and antenna years ago but nothing has happened (nor will anything happen). In my mind KMGH should lose their rights to their digital frequency but that will never happen because the FCC is looking out for the stations and not the taxpayers. In my mind each and every FCC commissioner should be immediately fired, but that won't happen either.

This whole thing is nothing more than one big circle jerk - the more things change the more they stay the same.

Is there a shadow from (or caused by) Lookout mountain? I'm assuming the shadow would fall on Golden.

So the only plan of action is to wait and whine? On the local Comcast thread, we wanted ABC HD and everyone had the same negative attitude, that it's hopeless and not worth trying to change. After folks started writing in and letting people know how we feel, we got what we wanted. Don't get me wrong, I do realize that this is a much more complicated and difficult issue to resolve, but doing something, be that starting a petition, writing to elected officials, etc., is much better than the current "wait and whine" method.

This board no doubt includes the most people in the Denver area who care about this issue, and it would be the place to start doing something about it. Not only that, but it is clear that there is a high level of knowledge here concerning the situation and potential workarounds. It might take years, but not trying does nothing.

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
So the only plan of action is to wait and whine? On the local Comcast thread, we wanted ABC HD and everyone had the same negative attitude, that it's hopeless and not worth trying to change. After folks started writing in and letting people know how we feel, we got what we wanted. Don't get me wrong, I do realize that this is a much more complicated and difficult issue to resolve, but doing something, be that starting a petition, writing to elected officials, etc., is much better than the current "wait and whine" method.

This board no doubt includes the most people in the Denver area who care about this issue, and it would be the place to start doing something about it. Not only that, but it is clear that there is a high level of knowledge here concerning the situation and potential workarounds. It might take years, but not trying does nothing. Be my guest. Start trying. Many here have done what we could over the last two or three years. We've organized letter writing campaigns to the FCC and to the stations and many here helped and supported the KRMA Morrison hearings and the LCGII hearings in JeffCo. Many of us wrote letters to the FCC on KMGH and then their attorney wrote the FCC and stated Lookout was "right around the corner" and moving to republic Plaza would cost $400,000. Both points were complete bullsh!t but the FCC let them stand pat with their toy transmitter.

We did organize a petition campaign to support LCGII.

The fact is there are no local politicians willing to step into this mess. Especially now. The zoning change was approved and is now in the courts. What and why would any sane politician step into that mess?

Ah... the newbies!

Jeremy, We've done all the thing you've mentioned. Between most of us, over the last 4-5 years, we've written hundreds of letters to the FCC, the stations, the State Reps etc and even threatened picketing KMGH! As you can see (or can't see) where that has gotten us.

The bottom line is the stations have the power (maybe not all of it) but some. If you look at it from their POV, they are making more money by not having to run 2, full-power transmitters simultaneously. So, why push it more that they legally have too. Well, at least enough to not get fined by the FCC.

Oh, and BTW, I'm not whinning. I don't give two hoots one way or the other if KMGH lives or goes off the air. I don't watch that channel (with the exception of about one quarter of last nights so-called "football" game). Ditto on KUSA. I can't stomach their self serving attitude. They could turn off the lights and walk away and it would not matter one iota to me. I do watch KCNC and to this day I believe they are the only commercial LCG station who really wants to get going in full power.

My mistake, I was not aware that anything has been or was being done. You can understand how I would see it as I do, reading only the past several dozen pages I haven't heard of anything being done lately.

Sometimes it takes a "newbie" that hasn't yet given up...

I'll let you know in a few days how much I actually care about this when I get my new OTA receiver... ;)

EDIT: Geof, I agree with you on most of the network programming. I'm not into sitcoms or Scooby-Doo style crime dramas, but I do love my HD football.

Originally posted by PAW
Is there a shadow from (or caused by) Lookout mountain? I'm assuming the shadow would fall on Golden. Yes, I suspect parts of Golden would be shadowed. Suffice it to say that if you can receive Ch 12 you're be in the clear and if you can't then getting digital signals would likely be problematic at best.

I admit to only reading about the last 30 pages on this (wow 461 pages and this is the 3 break out) thread.

I did right an email to KOA to see if a talk show on this subject might be of interest but no reply.

It would seem that places like Soundtrack would be scream bloody hell since their sales would jump up if we had a OTA solution in Denver.

Turn about is fair play maybe just have the SCARE people not allowed to receive any transmissions at all no TV or Radio.....

Hey Jeremy,

I've been there. My earliest posts here were more rah-rah and let's fix this thing. Over time, I've become resigned to living with what I can get -- which is actually quite a bit. The only local HD station I can't get is KMGH. And that's their own doing, so I've just stopped watching KMGH completely.

In the almost-four-years I've been posting here, there have been accomplishments:

* KCNC-DT went on the air. First respectable-power commercial network in Denver with HD. They've also provided us with the Grammys in DD 5.1 and a Super Bowl or two.
* KWGN-DT went on the air. Smallville in HD -- we're one of the few cities in the US to have a decent-power WB affiliate in HD.
* KDVR-DT has transitioned to HD from a combination of 14:9 stretch and crop-o-vision and 480p widescreen.
* KUSA-DT is on the air, and one of only 4 stations in the country to have local news in HD. KUSA was giving us the same attitude as KMGH back in the day, but after a letter writing campaign to the FCC by members of this thread, they suddenly did a 180-degree turn in their attitude toward HD.
* KRMA-DT and KBDI-DT are both on the air, showcasing the different strengths of DTV - KRMA has some stellar HD programming, and KBDI is doing multicasting that makes sense -- a main channel (although not HD), a subchannel that has kids' programming 24/7, and a pure educational subchannel, PBS-U. This kind of intelligent multicasting is good for those that can't or won't pay for cable or satellite TV and one of the reasons the FCC is pushing all OTA stations to DTV from NTSC.

and saving the least for the last:
* KMGH-DT was the first station on the air in HD in Denver. Never mind that until Comcast came along, we could count the number of people who could receive their signal on our fingers and toes.

Turn about is fair play maybe just have the SCARE people not allowed to receive any transmissions at all no TV or Radio.....It's already happening. My neighbors up here on Lookout/Genesee who were once against the towers, have now changed their minds (since buying HD displays). They're now asking me what to do to get network HD. (We don't have comcast HD available). Funny how that works.

I bet Deb & Al have to watch their old 9" B&W sets. As they surely cannot buy a big 'ol HDTV and be seen as weak. ;)

Originally posted by santellavision
I bet Deb & Al have to watch their old 9" B&W sets. As they surely cannot buy a big 'ol HDTV and be seen as weak. ;)
I though Al had one -- the one they bought to run their signal strength tests from Squaw.

IIRC, he told me it's hooked up at his place, but they have very little HD to watch on it.

I though Al had oneWhat a 'flip-flopper'! (that was just a joke)

<rant mode almost on>
I just wanted you all to note that I have NOT ONCE posted a negative comment or a cynical comment to the current pages of discussion with the 'newbie' about the towers. It is nice to see the new enthusiasm, but we all know where he will be in a year or two.

As one of the pretty much burned out 'oldbies' (is that a word??), I am staying way away from this latest discussion. I will only comment what I have been saying for the last year or so. If you want network HD in Denver, get it from another source (Canada, C. Springs, Cheyenne, C-Band, or any other source you can find (I will never recommend cable for personal reasons) and don't waste your time fighting this battle.

I promised myself I would keep my blood pressure down, so I will sign off here.
<rant mode switched to 'standby'>
:mad:

Originally posted by JMartinko
but we all know where he will be in a year or two.

Please tell me, I find psychics to be mostly annoying yet somehow intriguing. I hope the answer is in my own house watching Comcast HD...

From our sardonic perspective up north, kmgh chose a temp DT channel already occupied by PAX's analog repeater on Horsetooth mtn up here. Obviously they never intended to try to reach beyond metro Denver to the north. You guys are right on.

Bill

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
Please tell me, I find psychics to be mostly annoying yet somehow intriguing.................
I prefer to remain annoying (as you put it). Spend the next year or two chasing back and forth to the stations and the Taj for hearings while working to get the tower built on Lookout and if you still can't figure it out, come back and ask again and I will tell you. On the other hand, if you don't mind paying the cable company for something Congress and the FCC says you should get for free, then enjoy your Comcast. How's that for intriguing?

OK, for your reading pleasure. My note to the FCC from Feb. of 2003.
Note I copied Cindy V. at KMGH on this...


Dear Chairman Powell,

I am writing to express my frustration with the situation concerning the Denver ABC affiliate’s (KMGH) transition to DTV.

I’m sure the FCC is aware that several of Denver market network affiliates have been unable to secure the necessary permits from Jefferson County to construct their digital facilities. This has caused the DTV transition to be very slow, creating a frustrating experience for myself and many other Denver area residents.

Several of the local stations have been transmitting low power digital signals as provided for by an FCC STA. These low power setups all use a downtown Denver skyscraper as a location for the broadcast antennas. These stations are: KRMA (PBS), KCNC (CBS), and recently KUSA (NBC – although they are not yet broadcasting HDTV).

One station (KDVR – FOX) has been able to broadcast at about ½ power from it’s broadcast tower in Jefferson County; another station (KWGN – WB) is scheduled to start

In the interim, several stations (KRMA, KCNC, KUSA) broadcast digitally using a low power setup (STA) from an antenna located atop a downtown Denver skyscraper (Republic Plaza). This temporary arrangement serves many local residents well (but it is clearly understood by everyone that this temporary setup is far short of a permanent solution). On the other hand, KMGH is broadcasting an even lower power signal from an antenna atop their studio building, which is significantly lower in elevation (height) than the skyscraper used by our other stations. Many residents are able to receive broadcasts from the Republic Plaza. However, receiving the KMGH signal is difficult at best and only a very small subset of residents able to receive Republic Plaza broadcasts can receive the KMGH signal. Even then, these fortunate few local enthusiasts are usually only able to receive KMGH by employing extraordinary means to find a suitable antenna location and height - where inches and weather conditions literally make a world of difference between reception and nothing.

I note the obvious: ABC is broadcasting many hours of primetime high definition. Next fall they will be broadcasting high definition Monday Night Football in addition to their regular high definition prime time lineup. High definition Monday Night Football is sure to help pick up the pace of the digital transition - except here in Denver of course where the signal will only be receivable by a lucky few who are willing to go to great lengths to receive the signal.

The question I would like answered is this: Why is the FCC content with the abysmal effort put forth by KMGH to "broadcast" H/DTV? Clearly we are in need of a permanent long term solution but that is, at best, 1.5 to 2 years off, and probably longer given past history and current progress (Jefferson County zoning hearings will not begin before April and construction is estimated to be a year or so after county approval, which will take months). The downtown skyscraper is clearly a far better location for KMGH to broadcast their DT signal yet they refuse to move from their studio building (many have asked). Should not the FCC be requiring KMGH to serve as many residents as possible during this interim period? It is clear that they have the means to do so but not the desire to do so. Why is this farce allowed to continue? The other stations have chosen the best available site until their zoning issues are worked out, why should KMGH be allowed flaunt the intentions of serving the public? They are serving only a very few residents beyond the range of their parking lot. Would it be acceptable for KMGH to continue broadcasting from their studio site even after the Jefferson County Lookout Mountain site is approved and constructed? At what power level does the FCC become content with broadcaster efforts to comply with the digital mandate?

I might also note that information on the FCC site regarding KMGH's current ERP and HAAT (for example) is incorrect and misleading (this shows their STA setup as being higher in elevation and with higher ERP than either KCNC or KUSA but that is most definitely NOT the case).

I understand that the FCC requires low power operations to cover their city of license. I do not know if this is the case (I have not measured KMGH-DT power levels and plotted them on a map) but I hereby request that this be investigated to determine if KMGH is conforming.

Regardless, I respectfully request an answer as to why their current setup acceptable or better yet I would prefer that the FCC look after the best interests of Denver area citizens and require KMGH to relocate to the best possible location while their zoning and construction issues are resolved. In this vein I suggest that they be denied further DTV build out extensions unless they commit to serving as much of the public as possible during this interim period.

Sincerely,

I believe there were about 15 of us to write letters to the FCC, and we copied KMGH. Their lawyers chimed in immediately (even before all of the letters were sent). Here is the my copy of their response to the FCC:


VIA HAND DELIVERY

Honorable Michael K. Powell
Chairman
Federal Communications Commission
445 Twelfth Street, SW
Washington, D.C. 20554

Re: Temporary DTV Operations of KMGH-DT, Denver, Colorado

Dear Chairman Powell:

This is in response to the eight letters dated as of the dates set forth after the names of the below listed residents of the Denver area complaining about the adequacy of the temporary digital television signal of KMGH-DT being broadcast pursuant to special temporary authority granted by the Commission. The gravamen of each of the letters is that the DTV signal of KMGH-DT is not as good as the temporary DTV signals being broadcast by other market stations from antennas located atop of a downtown Denver skyscraper and that the Commission should require KMGH-DT to install improved temporary facilities. All of the complaint letters but one, recognize the difficulty encountered by Lake Cedar Group and KMGH-DT in obtaining zoning approval for permanent DTV facilities on Lookout Mountain, the transmitter site of its analog facilities.

We appreciate the complainants’ interest in digital television and seek their active support of Lake Cedar Group’s Lookout Mountain new zoning application now before Jefferson County. We anticipate that Jefferson County will grant the necessary zoning this spring and construction of the proposed multi-user tower will commence as soon thereafter as is possible.

With regard to the temporary DTV facilities now being operated by KMGH-DT, they were the first DTV facilities installed in the Denver market, having gone on the air on Sunday, February 28, 1999 at 10:00 am. When installed, it was believed that the Lake Cedar Group original zoning application would be approved in a reasonable period of time and permanent DTV facilities would soon be constructed to serve the entire market. Unfortunately, local opposition to the Lake Cedar Group’s original zoning application resulted in its denial by Jefferson County. Had KMGH-DT known that the zoning process was to take an addition four years, a more significant temporary facility would have been installed.

The temporary DTV operations of KCNC-DT and KUSA-DT were granted by the Commission in November of 2001 and 2002, respectively. These facilities on the Republic Plaza building do operate with greater ERP and height than does KMGH-DT. However, the calculated 41 dBu contour of the KMGH-DT STA operation encompasses the community of Denver, excluding a portion of Denver International Airport property which was annexed as part of the city but has no residents. A move of KMGH-DT to the Republic Plaza building and an operation with ERP comparable to that of KCNC-DT and KUSA-DT would require an additional capital expenditure for a new transmitter and microwave equipment of $350,000 to $450,000, plus the applicable rental fee at the new temporary site. In light of our belief that Jefferson County will shortly grant the Lake Cedar Group zoning application which will permit the construction of permanent full power facilities on Lookout Mountain, such an expenditure is not prudent.

Should your office have any questions or seek any additional information, please communicate with the undersigned.

Very truly yours,

Edward W. Hummers, Jr.

Counsel for
McGraw-Hill Broadcasting Company, Inc.

Gotta love this :confused:

Originally posted by gkanders
A move of KMGH-DT to the Republic Plaza building and an operation with ERP comparable to that of KCNC-DT and KUSA-DT would require an additional capital expenditure for a new transmitter and microwave equipment of $350,000 to $450,000, plus the applicable rental fee at the new temporary site. In light of our belief that Jefferson County will shortly grant the Lake Cedar Group zoning application which will permit the construction of permanent full power facilities on Lookout Mountain, such an expenditure is not prudent.


They have such an interesting definition of "shortly"

Well I'm glad to see that I got this board a little fired up. Makes my day at work go by much faster when there are new posts to read.

That is great that so many people got together and wrote letters. (BTW, how much do you estimate that Republic tower would really cost?) Now don't you suppose that in the past year and a half the number of people concerned with the situation has grown? There are plenty of people like colofan and myself who have not read the past 5 years worth of posts, and I'm sure many more who read this but don't post.

Something as simple as saying, "Here is a link to KMGH's feedback page, let them know how you feel: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/denvers7/222549/detail.html" doesn't hurt in my opinion.

Actually, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, KMGH couldn't join the group broadcasting from the top of Republic if they wanted to, as the rooftop is already maxed out for electrical power and for ERP.

Since the Republic Building is not the tallest building downtown, the stations broadcasting from there already spend a good amount of energy broadcasting into the Qwest building, shadowing a fair number of viewers in that direction... :(

Just for the sake of argument, this website says that RP is the tallest building by a whopping 5 feet: http://www.denverskyscrapers.com/tallbuildings_downtown_507_714.html I'm sure the Qwest building would do just fine if not better though.

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
Something as simple as saying, "Here is a link to KMGH's feedback page, let them know how you feel: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/denvers7/222549/detail.html" doesn't hurt in my opinion. Well like I said earlier go ahead and write your letters. It can't hurt but most of us here feel it won't help. Since the KMGH attorney wrote the FCC and mentioned "shortly" back in Feb '03 and were now getting close to Feb '05 they sure as hell aren't going to suddenly have a change of heart.

We all appreciate your enthusiasm and were once like you...full of optimism and hope. Being close to this and seeing all the twists and turns has soured many of our spirits. We clearly know where SCARE is coming from but I can't say we clearly understand the real position and motivation of some stations. While it's clear they need to broadcast an ATSC signal the FCC has been, and is being, content with the situation as it stands now. Certainly the FCC is not going to force any station to "move to higher ground", or up their power, or develop an alternative plan until the court case is fully resolved (if you can get the issue back of the Judges docket that may help). In the meantime the stations have appeased the FCC yet they still haven't had to fork over cash to start building anything (yes, they have had to fork over cash for getting to where they are now). Nor have they had to fork over cash to pay monthly electric bilsl on two high power TV transmitters (which are very expensive to operate).

Color me cynical but understand there is good reason and history behind said cynicism.

The temporary situation for any of the stations personally doesn't bother me. I want the D@MN PERMANENT tower on Lookout!! Then it will be worth my time and $$ to switch to DTV. ALL the stations should be banding together to fight sCare and the city of Golden.

Please don't take this as a slam against you guys who've have spent countless hours and dollars tweaking your systems to pick up the low power signals. It's not. I comend you. For me it's not worth the hassle. I want to able to put up an antenna, point it in the right direction and get a good signal. For the majority of TV viewers, they would spend even less effort. It just bites my butt that a small minority is holding an entire metro area hostage with fake science and lies.

OK. I feel better now.

Keep up the good work troops. Let us know when and what we can do. I'll even try to show up to what ever hearings come up. I got a sample ballot today. One of the things I checked was if Judge Jackson was up for reapproval.

My personal theory is if LCG does not build a new tower then everybody will wait until the very last moment then switch their analog to digital and put the analog somewhere else (Mt Morrison/Squaw or Republic) until the FCC reclaims the second frequency.

------

There are lots of good places to put antennas - but the main argument against is that it would cost the TV stations a LOT of money to recreate their antenna farm from scratch at a new site - plus keep the current farm on Lookout which would eventually be retired/scrapped. Plus typ all the problems (locals, zoning, fire dept acces, power access, diesel storage, etc) at Lookout are repeated at some level at the new site. Also all the other mountains tend to be owned by somebody else and the stations want to own their land & antenna.

The locals at every location say they don't want Lookouts crap dumped on them by sCARE (hint don't buy a house under an antenna or runway approach). So you can't get a zoning variation on Lookout unless there is no other acceptable location - you can't build on Mt. Morrison unless there is no other acceptable location - you can't build on XXXX unless there is no other acceptable location. Basically you have to prove Lookout is absolutely a no go before the next site comes up. Then you have to prove all the other alternatives are also impossible.

ANY relocation of the antennas create interference with adjacent stations (esp if moved very far), radio quiet zone, or cause the analog and digital reception areas to not overlap (an FCC violation). On the plains FAA, FCC, and DOD (Buckley) come into the picture - which push the towers to north or south of town.

There were pretty good dicussions on each alternative site in the earlier posts.

Anybody know what the holdup is on the Judge Jackson hearing? I would have thought a date would have been set by now.

Me too. This is really getting old.

Originally posted by santellavision
Anybody know what the holdup is on the Judge Jackson hearing? I would have thought a date would have been set by now.

I recently dropped a note to Pete asking the same question, I will let you know what he has to say if/when he responds.

In my opinion,

The stations in Denver should all get together and make a spot describing the problems, name the parties who are blocking them, and show what will happen when the analogs go away ( Pic of RF snow on the screen) if the digitals are not allowed on Lookout and run it as a PSA. The stations can take their case to public. Local Law enforcement and others are impatiently waiting for the spectrum to clear so they can have it.

Stations need to make their case and use the tools at their disposal (The tower issue is news). Maybe even a " Black Tuesday " of no local television period. No feeds to Cable, no feeds to Satellite, No OTA... No TV.

I'm surprised the local retailers haven't got on the bandwagon as its obviously does affect the sales of high end systems.




Back to lurking...

William

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
[B]Now don't you suppose that in the past year and a half the number of people concerned with the situation has grown? There are plenty of people like colofan and myself who have not read the past 5 years worth of posts, and I'm sure many more who read this but don't post.



Yes but on the flipside, up until a year ago there was a higher *percentage* of HDTV owners that cared about the OTA issues than there is now simply because before then cable wasnt offering any Local HD. Theres no reason to think that the vast majority of people who bought the tv's since then would care all that much because they were likely using cable to begin with (use an old fashioned antenna for tv.. are you kidding me?) and all they have to do is swap out STB's.

Before that the only way to get it was OTA, unless you went with a Canadian DBS system which has offered U.S. Network programming in HD for years now. Before KCNC and KUSA for example even had their temp rigs up. Needless to say there was no shortage of people in this region that went in that direction.

Course all the folks with domestic DBS HD setups have had to go with an OTA antenna for HD Locals, but that will be changing to hear tell in the next year or so also. Once again, for all the DBS customers that havent even took the HD plunge yet but that will be at some point after that, I'd imagine they'll just sub to the HD Locals off the dish because thats just what they're used to doing for the SD Locals so why bother with an antenna all of a sudden now?

Unless they get talked into it by some geek like us who says "but but but the PQ might/will be better and it doesnt cost anything!" And that might actually sell them at least for a little while until they get drop outs here and there due to a plane overhead, a "strategically placed" tree, or any other cause of multipath related issues that people in certain scenarios will no doubt suffer. Course if they were unfortunate enough to live where that might be a factor, the real suffering would be caused by the wife who keeps missing a word or 2 of dialogue here and there! ;)

Point taken. If I had a choice, which I don't, I would no doubt still use Comcast. Going back to the days of dicking around with an antenna to get a signal seems a little backwards to me, but I understand that many of you see it as a hobby and enjoy tinkering with them.

BTW, do you really subcribe to all of those services listed in your location?

Yep, sure do. No biggy tho cause the way the programming on each is structured I dont pay for any redundancy. And I get a lil HD somethin somethin from each of them that is unique to each provider.

Speaking of that, like with DirecTv the only thing I sub to is NFL-ST but it seems like my HD receiver is starting to tweek out. If anybody has an old run of the mill D* SD receiver they're not using that they might sell half way cheap, please let me know. Really I dont even care that much whether I see the games in HD or not, I've just always had that package to watch an out of market team. So even watching it in SD will do.

Going back to the days of dicking around with an antenna to get a signal seems a little backwards to meMaybe, but after spending around $40K on a home theater, I want the absolutely best PQ I can get. I don't have comcast, but I've read the the HD PQ is not quite as good on some channels as the OTA signals.

Personally I dumped Comcast back in 1998 or so and haven't looked back.

Between perpetually horrid picture quality here in Louisville and their habit of doing "maintenance" completely unannounced from 2 AM to 6 AM on several occasions to their continued stupid channel sharing arrangments (where one channel gets time from 7 AM to 7 PM and another from 7 PM to 7 AM), it just wasn't worth it. It was also obvious that Comcast wouldn't spend one dime on head end equipment they didn't have to, as in one of the nation's largest concentrations of weather professionals, they still had the original WeatherStar systems for The Weather Channel, providing only white text on a blue background, and had absolutely no plans to ever upgrade.

I can't see ever going back to paying for those headaches...

Great Googley Moogley...

I had forgotten some of those old cable sytem blues. Ha!

I was 'fortunate' enough to have an amplifier right in my back yard, and should have had one of the better signals around, being one of the first taps.

When I installed my satellite system back in '96 (I think), I was simply awestruck by the higher quality, and as you said, haven't looked back since...

Thanks for dusting off the old memory banks.

Originally posted by DP1
If anybody has an old run of the mill D* SD receiver they're not using that they might sell half way cheap, please let me know.

You've got mail.

I agree William. Our stations really need to become more involved with this. I mean, it’s a pretty big deal. And I have yet to see a real news story done on it. I remember in 2003 9News did a story about HDTV and mentioned the tower, they said,

“Jefferson County Commissioners have given the green light to a new TV tower which will bring HDTV to Denver by the year 2006.”

But that was it.

Originally posted by William Smith
In my opinion,

The stations in Denver should all get together and make a spot describing the problems, name the parties who are blocking them, and show what will happen when the analogs go away ( Pic of RF snow on the screen) if the digitals are not allowed on Lookout and run it as a PSA. The stations can take their case to public. Local Law enforcement and others are impatiently waiting for the spectrum to clear so they can have it.

Stations need to make their case and use the tools at their disposal (The tower issue is news). Maybe even a " Black Tuesday " of no local television period. No feeds to Cable, no feeds to Satellite, No OTA... No TV.

I'm surprised the local retailers haven't got on the bandwagon as its obviously does affect the sales of high end systems.




Back to lurking...

William I couldn't agree more. Many of us (especially jm) have "suggested" that to the stations for years. Obviously to no avail since nothing was ever aired. I do think it's about time they stood their ground and started informing the public about the situation and where they stand. They need to get this back on the court docket now and get moving forward again.

I have some basic questions about HDTV options in Denver (Littleton). Let me apologize in advance for posting questions without reading the whole post, a general no-no, but reading this post might take several days. :)

I have an HDTV on order (Toshiba DLP) and am wondering what my broadcast HD options are. I'm basically interested in HD local channels (sports mostly). I currently have basic basic Comcast cable for $15 a month, and am in general a cheap bastard and not willing to spend $40+ a month on cable or satellite service.

OTA HD would seem to fit the bill for me. I live in Littleton, in the valley near the Platte River. I do have somewhat of a clearshot view of downtown Denver from my roof, through the trees. Would I be able to pick up OTA HD? What quality and channels would be available? Any recommendations on antennas?

Thanks in advance and let me apologize for my ignorance, stupidity, and laziness. Perhaps these are the traits that make me interested in watching TV in the first place. ;)

dsr

dsr,

Welcome to the thread! Check out this link. It has reception info for the metro area. See who is near you and you will get a good idea of what you might get.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587&highlight=denver+data

Also, check out our Denver DTV website. It has lots of info about DTV.

http://www.denverdtv.info

---------------------

Did anybody catch the tiny blurb burried on page 24A of the RMN? Basically it said LCG has asked Judge Jackson to let them start construction. Guess what he said... Uh, no.

dsr welcome,

I would expect you should have no problem picking up CBS, PBS, and NBC from Republic Plaza. And with your antenna pointed downtown, you'll probably still get WB and Fox from the mountains since they are higher power. Take a look at the maps in my sig for exact locations and power levels. Hell, you might even get a whiff of ABC (on Speer).

I would start small with an indoor antenna just to see what you get. Return it and work your way up (in antenna size, antenna location, and your effort) if you want/need more signal level or more stations.

Looks like Directv has signed up Altitude Sports just in time for the Nuggets season to begin!

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~90~2498598,00.html

Great news Iwanthd, I had faith that they would get it done before the season started.

Later
Joe

I emailed all of the (LCG) stations asking when they thought the LCG tower would be finished, just for the heck of it. They all said mid-late 2005 early 2006. Except for KMGH whom never got back to me, which is not unusual.

KTVD are very optimistic, they say mid 2005. They said they are already ordering equipment. And Mr. Don Perez over at KUSA gave me the most detailed reply. He said late 2005 and he expects Judge Jackson to review the approval within 30 to 90 days.


Hopefully their predictions are correct, only time will tell…

Rocky Mountain News article (on the tower, not Alititude Sports):
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3289452,00.html

Mark

Updated 1 September 2004 - DTVMAX.COM
o As of July 1, 2004 all TV sets of 36 inch or larger are required by FCC rules to include a digital TV (DTV) tuner in addition to the standard analog tuner (monitors with no tuner are still allowed). The prices for 36 inch direct view CRT TVs without an DTV capability has recently fallen as a result of the manufacturers attempting to clear out their soon to be obsolete models.

Is this true? If so, they should start putting the following sticker on TV's less than 36 inches:

This television receives only analog(NTSC) signals. These signals are being phased out by the FCC. Soon all stations in the USA will only be broadcasting digital(ATSC) signals. When the transformation to digital signals is complete, this television will require a 'Set Top Box' to receive broadcast signals.Please note that persons that live in or near Denver, CO. can disregard this notice, as it is estimated that analog signals(NTSC) will continue to be broadcast for the foreseeable future.

Ron, thanks for the pointers. The Denver DTV website is great!

Yes it's true, TotallyPreWired. And they said STB's would get really cheap once manufacturers were forced to put digital tuners in their TV's! So much for that! Still $250-$350 for a decent one.

Thanks for the link mbuchana; I can't believe someone finally did a fairly decent story on it.

Originally posted by Symbios
Yes it's true, TotallyPreWired. And they said STB's would get really cheap once manufacturers were forced to put digital tuners in their TV's! So much for that! Still $250-$350 for a decent one.

Thanks for the link mbuchana; I can't believe someone finally did a fairly decent story on it.

GIve it some time - I don't expect ATSC tuners to really drop in price until they have to start putting tuners in 20" or maybe even 13" sets...

Is the mandatory tuner thing really happening? I went into Soundtrack the other day only about a 1/4 of the big HD displays had tuners built-in. Manufacturers are really draging this out.

And to change the subject... I'm amazed everytime the mention of HDTV comes up in average conversation with friends. I haven't met one 'average' person (not only in Denver) that owns an HD display! (My group of professional video buddies don't count)

I'm talking about my wife's friends and workers. Most are above-average income professionals too. It is pretty funny when they come over and see what HD really looks like. Most just want to move in.