I think most non-videophiles are aware of it now, and they all want it. They just aren't willing to shell out the big $$$ for an HD-capable display. Also, I know from several chats I've had with others that an awful lot of people are under the impression that "high-def" is synonymous with plasma. That is, to get HD, they have to buy a plasma, and if they buy a plasma they'll automatically have HD.

I'm still amazed that display manufacturers and content providers haven't put in a bigger effort and more ad dollars into educating the public about HDTV.

It wouldn't surprise me if they are as turned off by store displays as I am. I have yet to see one locally that I'd shell the $$ out for. The stores here showpiece a HDTV by playing a full screen DVD via the S-video jack stretched to fill the screen. The others have the VHS store channel. Maybe they are trying to discourage HD sales until they clear out more non-HD stock. At some point, its got to hurt their sales, though.

Originally posted by dsr15
I currently have basic basic Comcast cable for $15 a month, and am in general a cheap bastard and not willing to spend $40+ a month on cable or satellite service. You can get all the local HD stations (except KWGN, and that's just for the time being) on Comcast for about $6 per month on top of the $15 you are already paying. That $6 is for rental of an HD-capable STB from Comcast. Some CSRs will claim that you need to get the "digital package", but you just have to be insistent - there is an FCC reg that cable companies cannot charge more than the basic rate (other than equipment rental) for receiving OTA DTV signals. If you plan to keep your basic cable then IMHO this is your best option. OTOH, if you are a REALLY CHEAP BASTARD (like me) then getting a DTV receiver and no cable at all is the way to go.

Originally posted by mbuchana
Rocky Mountain News article (on the tower, not Alititude Sports):
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3289452,00.html

Mark Dunno about you, but that article didn't give me any optimism at all. I'm still predicting that the judge wants a full re-hearing in order to find some specious reason for re-manding it again to a new anti-tower BCC.

If that happens, it's 'game over' until 20XX.

Originally posted by santellavision
If that happens, it's 'game over' until 20XX.

Ernie, in that case, the zero in your number may be optimistic.

Actually, I don't understand why Judge Jackson needed to entertain a motion to allow the permit before the hearing. Just dismiss the lawsuit. It only takes a few minutes. How long does the Judge need to consider the BCC results? A week? A month? A year?

This is not good. Not good at all.

Don

Good grief. If any of that happens they’d better start looking for a new spot. Analog TV isn't going to be around forever!

The judge is a nimby sympathizer. He probably lives on Lookout Mtn.

If any of that happens they’d better looking for a new spot. No they won't. They will just wait and make the switch from analog to digital on Lookout. And no doubt, lots of sCARE lawsuits after the fact. The only silver lining to that is, They will most likely do the switch, and then deal with the fight after the fact.

My guess would be that the switch would come around 2008. (That is the last year the FCC has stated as a drop-dead date to end all NTSC broadcasting)

New Receiver - No More Joy
Well, I got my new LG LSS-3400A receiver yesterday, and I was hoping that it would improve my OTA HD reception. Nope, it doesn't pick up anything that my Mits WS-65511 doesn't. So, I guess the receiver in it(Mits) is actually pretty good. I have gained a signal strength meter, which helps as I can now see exactly what's going on. As far as any difference in PQ goes, I haven't had the time to do a comparison.

This may be the wrong place to ask, but how does D* handle HD stations such as FOX? I already get the C/S stations via D*, but I need FOX HD! If they will give it to me, what's the charge? I already get ABC & CBS OTA, so FOX is the big hole in my HD football viewing. As soon as I negotiate the best deal, I'll be signing up for the D* HD package.

Thanx,
....jc

Totally,
You should get KTTV-DT (Fox HD) from D* for free on ch89. Just like CBS HD on 81. But Fox isn't 24/7 on D* yet. THey did have the MLB LCS and WS games and I assume they have football also. We'll see tomorrow.

regarding Fox HD on DirecTV-

I received a postcard from DirecTV that my
FOX waiver was granted
but
ABC & NBC was denied.

D* has already started charging me a $2.25 per month fee for FOX HD, even though ch89 isn't even available right now. so I'm not to pleased about this so far.

Free Fox, that would be nice.

What would happen if I hooked up my new HD receiver to my existing dish(multi-sat with 2 dual lnb's)? Would it pick up HD feeds from just 101 & 119 or would it fail to work all together? I've got this new receiver sitting here and with Denver playing on Fox today, it's tempting(as long as Fox isn't on 110).

I've also got a new dish sitting here, and that's part of the hold-up.

Thanks,
....jc

Yeah the receiver will get whichever HD feeds are applicable even if it's only fed 101 and 119.. it doesnt matter whether you have the Sat C lnb for 110 installed or not.

When D* first launched HD a few years ago, the couple channels they had were on 119. Only when D* finally got around to adding Showtime HD a couple years later, did they start using 110 for certain HD feeds. At that point people finally started getting around to adding the Sat C lnb.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Totally,
You should get KTTV-DT (Fox HD) from D* for free on ch89. Just like CBS HD on 81. But Fox isn't 24/7 on D* yet. THey did have the MLB LCS and WS games and I assume they have football also. We'll see tomorrow.

Ron, I tried, but no luck. I talked with 2 different CSR's today, and they didn't seem to know much about the HD feeds. So, they are going to try the 'waiver route' to see if I can get it(which, of course will cost me). I'm running w/o the 110 LNB, so some of the HD programming, I'm not going to get. I'll keep checking to see if channels 88 or 89 come alive, but I also don't get any of the CBS feeds(which I don't really need).

According to their neat little toy, I'm only eligible for ABC and NBC. And it seemed to be using Denver signals, even though I'm in the C/S DMA.

....jc

I'm not getting KDVR-DT OTA at the moment -- game time of course. Anyone else have this problem? All I'm getting is a "no signal" message and I KNOW that I was getting a signal at 10:00 am.

I'm getting a great signal. Wow, the PQ on this game is excellent; I've never seen my old crappy STB produce such a nice image.

Maybe you should move your antenna around a bit. Sometimes I'll loose KWGN for no reason and I'll have to adjust my antenna to get it back.

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
I'm not getting KDVR-DT OTA at the moment -- game time of course. Anyone else have this problem? All I'm getting is a "no signal" message and I KNOW that I was getting a signal at 10:00 am.

I'm having the same problem...usually FOX is my strongest OTA, right now I'm getting nothing.

That is really weird, mine is very strong. I’m getting about 35% according to my signal strength meter. Usually it’s around 26%-28%.

I see Hoop's problem... He's in TUCSON! No wonder he's having signal strength issues...

Mine is back, after I went up to the attic and the antenna west a couple inches. Maybe it's the weather. For the record, this is an hd-tivo and KDVR generally runs in the 80's. Prior to the nudge it was anywhere from 0-40. I hope this isn't a permanent thing or I'll be making a lot of attic trips.

See there you go. I don't know why (or how...) they move, mine is on the roof tightly bolted to the mast and I still have to go up there every now and then to move it around.

I've just left the ladder up and I keep a wrench on the roof because I go up there to adjust it so much! I’m starting to think a rotator isn’t such a bad idea…

Rotors (with an outside antenna) are a GOOD thing to have :)

Mine is INSIDE the attic. Must've been a ghost. Doesn't matter much. After that craptacular Donko performance I'm going outside to look for big brick to hurl through the screen.

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
Mine is INSIDE the attic. Must've been a ghost. Doesn't matter much. After that craptacular Donko performance I'm going outside to look for big brick to hurl through the screen.
Hopefully, you'll feel a little better knowing that Shannahan is only making $5 mil a year for his efforts. He is worth so much more. :mad:

Has anyone else had problems with KCNC for the past week or so? I'm getting KRMA at 63% and KUSA at 77% (E* 811) but can't get a good signal for 35. It is coming in around 56-60 and does not lock. It was fine up until two weeks ago when I moved my antenna outside. Everything else increased about 10% but KCNC has weakened. I'm even getting ch. 46 at 70%. I've tried re-aiming but no luck. Any thoughts?

BTW, I'm just east of Longmont off 119; CM4228 on a 20 ft. mast; no amp.

Here's the scenario:

According to D*'s toy, I'm eligible for ABC & NBC HD. I'm not eligible for FOX(due to an analog 'translator' 2 miles from here) or CBS(KCNC - 53 miles from here). I am eligible for ABC(which for wierd reason I actually get) and NBC.

What I'm having a problem with is the fact that I'm in the C/S DMA, and I actually subscribe to their local channels. But, they are willing to give me a national feed for ABC & NBC, but not FOX! This whole thing is an absolute mess.

The only good news is, that I fired up my new receiver, and even w/o the LNB for 110, I'll be watching the game on ESPN tonight in HD.

....jc

I just noticed this afternoon that KUSA was missing; don't know how long it's been that way. My SIR-T151 shows a solid lock on KUSA (green light, no flickers) but displays the "No Signal" message in the on-screen display.

Maybe they are messing around with the program stream somehow?

Update: as of this am(11-01) I can get KUSA again, but mapped to 16-1 rather than 9-1.

I can't get KCNC either. I used to be able to get it at night, but now I've got nothing. I'm getting just enough signal for their PSIP data to load, but that's it.

Originally posted by Symbios
I can't get KCNC either. I used to be able to get it at night, but now I've got nothing. I'm getting just enough signal for their PSIP data to load, but that's it.

Thanks for the info.

Oxothuk,
Thanks for the pointers on HD Cable. Before reading your message, I spent probably an hour on Comcast's website and came to the false conclusion that my only option for HD content was digital cable. They are definately trying to fool customers into thinking they need $40+ packages!

What exactly is the "HD-capable STB" that I need to rent? Can one be purchased instead of renting? Would one be needed with a newer HDTV that has integrated tuners? I'm sure I'm showing my ignorance here, but does STB stand for 'Set Top Box' or something else?

Is there any difference in picture quality between HD cable and a good signal OTA w/antenna? Any other factors besides cost and available channels I should be aware of?

tx,
dsr


Originally posted by oxothuk
You can get all the local HD stations (except KWGN, and that's just for the time being) on Comcast for about $6 per month on top of the $15 you are already paying. That $6 is for rental of an HD-capable STB from Comcast. Some CSRs will claim that you need to get the "digital package", but you just have to be insistent - there is an FCC reg that cable companies cannot charge more than the basic rate (other than equipment rental) for receiving OTA DTV signals. If you plan to keep your basic cable then IMHO this is your best option. OTOH, if you are a REALLY CHEAP BASTARD (like me) then getting a DTV receiver and no cable at all is the way to go.

Finally got a quick reply from Pete McNally on the status of things this morning. Not much information here except that it looks like we can rule out an '04 start on construction. Why am I not surprised?????
:mad:

Pete said,

The judge has set a date because the County is still ‘certifying’ the record which must include every note, letter, email etc received re: the case. You are correct that if the judge sent it back it would fall upon the new commissioners. However, I believe that to be very unlikely. Nonetheless we have meet and will continue to meet with the new candidates. We continue to make progress as they hear our side of the story.

I suspect the judges hearing on the injunction will be shortly after the first of the year but that’s simply my guess. I share your frustration: the judicial process is s a long process and I personally am less able to influence the timing or outcome. However, from my conversations with our attorneys, I feel very confident about our chances.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Finally got a quick reply from Pete McNally on the status of things this morning. Not much information here except that it looks like we can rule out an '04 start on construction. Why am I not surprised?????
:mad:

Pete said, Well it's good to read that Pete is optimistic. Hopefully he's right.

IF everything goes as Pete suggests it now looks like it'll be 2006 before we get any high power LCG station from Lookout....That's about 3 years from the "shortly" comment made by the KMGH attorney.

Pete has to be optimistic; he can't reply and say that LCGII is doomed outright... :(

Edit: I never had a problem with KCNC-DT and KUSA-DT is back to 9-1 now.

I talked to the engineer at KUSA and he said they were doing some maintenance over the weekend and the computer that encodes the PSIP data didn't reboot properly over the weekend and they fixed it about 9 AM this morning (11/1).

I would suggest the the KCNC problems last night were weather related. I know when it snows or rains here in the SE Metro area I have problems as well. Last night I had lots of break ups, had to switch over to the analog signal for Cold Case, yuck

Later
Joe

Originally posted by dsr15
What exactly is the "HD-capable STB" that I need to rent? Can one be purchased instead of renting? Would one be needed with a newer HDTV that has integrated tuners? I'm sure I'm showing my ignorance here, but does STB stand for 'Set Top Box' or something else?
Sorry for the jargon, yes STB means Set-Top-Box. To my knowledge, Comcast does not offer their STB for sale. A newer TV which has an integrated tuner (look for QAM capability) should eliminate the need for the STB. Some early QAM tuners had compatibility issues; I would suggest that you check the Denver Comcast thread to see what folks are having success with.

Still newer TVs which are 'digital cable ready' have a card slot enabling reception of non-broadcast channels, which are encrypted for transmission; the decryption card also has to be rented from Comcast, albeit for less money than their STB. To get any of those non-broadcast channels, however, you WOULD have to subscribe to the Digital Package, at $50+; the FCC mandate I describe applies to broadcast channels only.


Is there any difference in picture quality between HD cable and a good signal OTA w/antenna? Any other factors besides cost and available channels I should be aware of? Not unless Comcast starts overcompressing the HD channels to save bandwidth. This gets talked about from time to time, but is not current practice.

Originally posted by whtevr77
Has anyone else had problems with KCNC for the past week or so? I'm getting KRMA at 63% and KUSA at 77% (E* 811) but can't get a good signal for 35. It is coming in around 56-60 and does not lock. It was fine up until two weeks ago when I moved my antenna outside. Everything else increased about 10% but KCNC has weakened. I'm even getting ch. 46 at 70%. I've tried re-aiming but no luck. Any thoughts?

BTW, I'm just east of Longmont off 119; CM4228 on a 20 ft. mast; no amp.

I think you answered your own question, try an amp! I am unable to receive KCNC-DT or KUSA-DT without my amp.

Originally posted by kucharsk
Pete has to be optimistic; he can't reply and say that LCGII is doomed outright... :( Yes and no. I agree that he would not come right out and say it's doomed. But he's been fairly square with us in the past and (IMO) has a decent track record. He did come out and say: "You are correct that if the judge sent it back it would fall upon the new commissioners. However, I believe that to be very unlikely." He did not have to say that at all so I took that as a positive sign.

I agree Geof, Pete has always stayed pretty straight with us, even when some of us (and you know who you are) started a rebellion and stopped co-operating (not that I would know anything about that.... :rolleyes: ). I think he is simply telling us the legal process takes a long time which we all know, and if it isn't done absolutely correct, they will be giving (S)CARE an opening. None of us want that for sure. On the flip side, if the Judge still has a heartburn with something, it really sounds like we are screwed.

Pete isn't as optimistic as the folks over at KTVD; the engineer over there told me he believes construction will begin mid-2005! Now that's optimistic.

Originally posted by Symbios
Pete isn't as optimistic as the folks over at KTVD; the engineer over there told me he believes construction will begin mid-2005! Now that's optimistic. Optimistic yes...hopefully realistic as well. IF the Judge is happy with the situation and removes the construction injunction early next year I would hope they'd get started even earlier than mid 2005. But, until they get going I will be doing no dances of joy....

Can someone refresh my memory on what the "estimates" were from ground breaking to finished tower? It seemed to me it was around 12 months, but then again I am usually wrong.

I can no longer even receive an OTA signal that is viewable on my Dish 921, since the tuner in it is so shaky. (let alone record anything) Even with a 100 to 110% signal strength, I get audio cutouts, and the screen breaks up into "square bit hell." I have to use my internal tuner on my Sony TV to watch anything with my antenna.

Yeah, that's about right. Everyone I've talked to have said 9-12 months.

dr_mal,
Have you seen this posted about HDNet's Dec schedule ..
Highlights of the NHL 2003-2004 Season -Fridays, 9:00 p.m. ET
Highlights of HDNet's 2003-2004 NHL season matches, featuring three games condensed to two hours. 20 weeks of the best hockey in crystal clear high definition. Also on slate are the complete replays of the NHL ALL-STAR match and playoffs.I'm so hard-up for HD hockey, I may watch some reruns:)

Originally posted by RonAuger
dr_mal,
Have you seen this posted about HDNet's Dec schedule ..
I'm so hard-up for HD hockey, I may watch some reruns:)
Yeah, I saw that. Not sure if I'm interested in reruns, but we'll see once they hit the air. I can see watching the All Star game again, and if they manage to get rebroadcast rights for the Heritage Game, I'd watch that again for sure.

Is anyone else experiencing audio/video sync problems while watching KDVR’s digital channel? Or is my old STB giving me yet another reason to put it out of its misery. LOL

It seems worse with local feeds. The national feed is a little better, but it’s still noticeable.

I'm sure you guys probably already know this, but I came across it and thought I would post it...

Date posted: 2004-11-01
Denver Tower Work Stopped

Denver news Web sites RockyMountainNews.com and DenverPost.com are reporting Jefferson County District Judge Brooke Jackson has denied a request from broadcasters to lift an injunction stopping work on the 730-foot TV tower on Lookout Mountain. Jefferson County commissioners approved construction of the tower for a second time on August 17, 2004. (See RF Report, August 24, 2004). Judge Jackson issued the injunction to allow opponents a chance to respond to arguments submitted by Lake Cedar Group (TV stations KCNC, KMGH, KUSA and KTVD) shortly before approval of the tower.

According to the Rocky Mountain News article Broadcast tower work on hold--Opponents around Lookout Mountain claim small victory by Charley Able, Judge Jackson's ruling said there was no "competent evidence" to support arguments that the guy wires supporting the tower would not fall on nearby occupied buildings if they failed.

In addition to the Rocky Mountain News article, the Denver Post web site carried a news brief Injunction stands in TV tower dispute. Opponents to the tower include Canyon Area Residents for the Environment - web site www.c-a-r-e.org - and the city of Golden, Colorado.

There are links inbedded in the article also,

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dlrf/one.php?id=622
Doug Lung's RF Report

Judge Jackson's ruling said there was no "competent evidence" to support arguments that the guy wires supporting the tower would not fall on nearby occupied buildings if they failed.

I believe this was in the original ruling and not the one last week. You have to read last week's article pretty closely to not be confused by that; I thought that at first also but I went back and re-read the article and determined that the guy wire reference was a reference to the original ruling, not last week's ruling.

Don

Oh yeah, mbuchana posted this article a few pages back.

The CARE web site also has no new information. They would have posted something if they felt they had won yet another new victory.

Originally posted by Symbios
Oh yeah, mbuchana posted this article a few pages back.

Cool, I saw it and knew you folks were having a hell of a time with your OTA DTV so I figured I would post it. No harm, no foul. :)

Jim

A hell of a time indeed.

Thanks for caring about us! :)

Originally posted by Symbios
A hell of a time indeed.

Thanks for caring about us! :)

You bet..:)

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
The CARE web site also has no new information. They would have posted something if they felt they had won yet another new victory. What do mean they have no new info? They're havin' a big 'ol P-A-R-T-Y this Fri at the Fossil Golf Course! Its open to the public. Lets all go and and have some Animal House fun! ;)

P.S. I used to like Lannie Garrett, but not any more.

Originally posted by santellavision
What do mean they have no new info? They're havin' a big 'ol P-A-R-T-Y this Fri at the Fossil Golf Course! Its open to the public. Lets all go and and have some Animal House fun! ;)

P.S. I used to like Lannie Garrett, but not any more.
Count me among the missing. $75.00 dollars to help support them. Not.

According to the Rocky Mountain News article Broadcast tower work on hold--Opponents around Lookout Mountain claim small victory by Charley Able, Judge Jackson's ruling said there was no "competent evidence" to support arguments that the guy wires supporting the tower would not fall on nearby occupied buildings if they failed.

The information here:
http://www.reach.net/~scherer/p/twrmath.htm
is quite damaging.

Even if they do get the tower up, even broadcasting(talk about a tease), I don't hold out much hope that another lawsuit won't be filed. I am normally an optimist, but I've seen enough here, to feel otherwise.

Maybe, they should just put the tower on Sqaw, and deal with the holes in coverage, after it's live. At least 90% of us would get something to watch.

....jc

Maybe, they should just put the tower on Sqaw, and deal with the holes in coverage, after it's live. If every new tower in US had to have that much room around it, we wouldn'd be able to build any new towers!

And go through another 6 years of public hearings/lawsuits/hearings to build the additional towers to fill in all the shadow problem areas... No thanks!

If the tower goes on Squaw, the (eco-) terrorists win.

Originally posted by dr_mal
If the tower goes on Squaw, the (eco-) terrorists win.

Doc,
Please explain. This thread is so long, I haven't read it all.

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Doc,
Please explain. This thread is so long, I haven't read it all.

....jc Simple. SCARE is holding the entire Front Range hostage because of their own NIMBY/BANANA selfishness. Recent health studies showed fewer incidences of cancer which had been SCARES "primary concern" (at least what they spoke publicly). If the towers are moved off of Lookout they will reap HUGE financial gains because their property values will skyrocket. So they hold the entire Front Range hostage for years and years and then reap huge financial windfalls....not right to me......

jc - the link to which you refer shows just how out of whack CARE's statements are based on the EMF Effects page. According to that page, the EMF effects in Germany are nothing compared to the effects from the same level on Lookout. At even 5 to 50 times the amount in Austria, it still only refers to sleep disturbance (yeah, me too, I have apnia). Of course, in Moscow where they pulsed microwaves (microwave oven frequencies) directly at the Embassy, there were effects. But, oddly, they forgot to mention those factors :rolleyes: Wasn't Martha Stewart put in jail for misrepresentations?

A little off topic... For those of you that have HD Tivos, do you notice any problems with the OTA tuner strength versus your previous STB's. With all the mega watts of broadcasting signal strength around here, I am concerned that I will lose what OTA signals I have. Any responses would be appreciated, especially those of you in the southern part of the metro area. Thanks!

Iwanthd,

I have compared directly between the RCA DTC 100 and the HDTIVO and the ability to lock onto marginal signals is much worse in the HDTIVO. I cannot get KMGH ( no jokes please ) reliably on the TIVO and have absolutely no problems getting it loud and clear on the RCA unit. Important for MOnday night football, etc. I have had to keep the old unit in addition to the HDTIVO. I am convinced it is the internal splitter of the OTA input that would cause this. Of course, being convinced doesn't make me right either.

Jeff

I haven't fired up my samsung 360 since the hd-tivo arrived so I can't give you side by side numbers. However IIRC the ota performance is approximately equal for these two boxes. Seems like I was getting in the 80's with the 360 and I'm still in the 80's, with of course the KMGH exception (0). I've got real good line of sight to downtown.

My Sony HD300 is much more sensitive than the HD TiVo. Must be the internal signal splitter.

My Zenith HD receiver is more sensitive. I am able to pick up channel 12's digital channels and the gobaly-goop on the 11-...., but I am not able to get them on my HD Tivo.

Thanks for the responses. I must say that I don't like the trend that is developing. What modern, expensive device am I going to obsess over if an HD Tivo won't work for me?

I too have noticed that the OTA tuner is not as good as the one on my E86. I can pick up KMGH on only one of the two tuners and I am less than three miles from their station.

Well, my results with the HD Tivo are not the same. I could barely get KMGH with my RCA DTC-100. It was close (strength on the DTC 100 around 40%) but would frequently break up. Now with the HD Tivo, I get KMGH well enough that there are very few, if any breakups. This is at the low end of the capture range on the Tivo which is about 60%. So, the Tivo appears to work better once a station is locked on.

The only bad news is that in the Tivo, this works well only on one of the OTA tuners. The second tuner on KMGH reports wildly fluctuating numbers between 0 and 40% and won't lock. The first tuner stays solid at around 60%. Others have reported this problem on the Tivo Community Forum as well. I have found that if the Tivo is not recording and I select KMGH to watch, it always picks the right tuner and works fine. However, once in a while, it has picked the wrong tuner when recording because the other OTA tuner was busy and all I would get is a black screen. Apparantly this problem only occurs on some weak stations. All of the other HD channels come in with numbers from 80-95% on both OTA tuners and have no dropouts at all.

Of course, we all know that full power from Lookout is due to crank up any time. So, I am not worrying about it too much!

Iwanthd --
Doesn't circuit city have a pretty decent return policy? If so, just take one home and try it out. Based on the reports I sometimes wonder if I have the only fully functional hd-tivo in existence.

Whenever I switch to KMGH, it always goes to the "wrong" tuner and I have to change to the other tuner to watch KMGH. I can not setup anything to record off of KMGH becuase of this.

Luckily, we should have HD locals off D* before they ever start building the tower.

Did anyone else enjoy the local HD election coverage last night on KUSA-DT? I may be wrong, but I think this is the first time they've had live, remote HD. Whenever they have live remote shots during the news, it's always 16:9 SD. I was quite pleased to see the shots from Republican and Democratic headquarters here in town in HD.

Nice job, KUSA!

I have noticed the use of a lot of real HD remotes lately on KUSA. They still have a lot of SD cameras though being used, albeit in 16:9 format. To me, the difference between the PQ on the cameras is very obvious.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Well, my results with the HD Tivo are not the same. I could barely get KMGH with my RCA DTC-100. It was close (strength on the DTC 100 around 40%) but would frequently break up. Now with the HD Tivo, I get KMGH well enough that there are very few, if any breakups. This is at the low end of the capture range on the Tivo which is about 60%. So, the Tivo appears to work better once a station is locked on.

The only bad news is that in the Tivo, this works well only on one of the OTA tuners. The second tuner on KMGH reports wildly fluctuating numbers between 0 and 40% and won't lock. The first tuner stays solid at around 60%. Others have reported this problem on the Tivo Community Forum as well. I have found that if the Tivo is not recording and I select KMGH to watch, it always picks the right tuner and works fine. However, once in a while, it has picked the wrong tuner when recording because the other OTA tuner was busy and all I would get is a black screen. Apparantly this problem only occurs on some weak stations. All of the other HD channels come in with numbers from 80-95% on both OTA tuners and have no dropouts at all.

Of course, we all know that full power from Lookout is due to crank up any time. So, I am not worrying about it too much! I used to get a solid lock on both HD TiVo tuners for KCNC and KUSA. Now only one tuner appears to be working reliably enough to lock. My E86 would not pick up KUSA at all so the HD TiVo bested that but I never had issues with KCNC and now I do with one of the HD TiVo tuners. Go figure.

Originally posted by jpfletcher

Luckily, we should have HD locals off D* before they ever start building the tower.

I was just wondering about this, because I'm tired of messing with my OTA antenna.
But is there "proof" about HD locals (for Denver!) coming via D* soon, or just annecdotal hopes
and prayers based off satellite launch information or other (unfounded?) rumors?

thanks for any info clarifying this.

::john

Well, with that new satellite Boeing is building them; they will be able to broadcast allot more local HDTV channels, so the future looks pretty promising.

But this won't be happening anytime soon, they've only just started planning it, haven’t even started to build it yet. :(

EL SEGUNDO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 8, 2004--
... The first two of these satellites, Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2, will launch in 2005 with programming being offered to consumers by the middle of the year. These satellites will have the capacity for more than 500 local HD channels. With these satellites, DIRECTV will have the ability to bring local HD programming to most of the U.S. population, as well as continuing to expand standard-definition local offerings and other enhancements.

... The Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2 satellites, also being built by Boeing, are approaching completion and the satellites were recently converted to be capable of offering both video and a broadband Internet service. Boeing is also constructing a third Spaceway satellite.


So, an optimist would think that this will happen in about 8 months. Given 5 channels per market, 100 markets could be covered. Denver, in my opinion, is a 'shoe in', however, I'm in the C/S DMA, so I'm not as optimistic.

Added another paragraph for completion info...

....jc

Wow, maybe it'll happen sooner then I thought. The article I read made it sound like the satellites haven’t been built yet.

Even if we get LIL from D*, isn't the functionality of the HD Tivo limited without the ability to receive OTA signals? Or, can you still record 2 shows at the same time from the same source (satellite or OTA). In other words, should I care if I get my locals from D* or OTA if my main goal is to take advantage of all the benefits the HD Tivo has to offer?

you can record two shows simultaneoulsy, any combination of ota and sat works. OTA-OTA, SAT-SAT, OTA-SAT

Hmmm, back to obsessing...

Actually, what I think that they'll do with the 500 HD channels, is take 100 channels for their top 100 programs. This would include all of their premium channels and about 50 of the others. That would leave 400 channels for local HD, or about 80 markets. This would easily include Denver & maybe C/S.
From a profit standpoint this would make sense as they charge more(and make!) from their premium channels. And this approach would blow away the competition(bye-bye Vooom).


And, this would virtually eliminate any idle time that my D* HD receiver has now. :p

....jc

Here is a link to an interview with the folks at Altitude Sports that discusses some technical issues as well as their plans for HD broadcasting. It sounds like they are planning for HD capabilities in the next 18 months!

http://www.altitude.tv/news/newsDetails.aspx?NID=59

Does anyone have any opinions about these antennas?

RECOTON TV3000 UHF/VHF ANTENNA
SS-1000 or SS-2000 SquareShooter DTV/HDTV Antenna

THANKS :D

Those are both pretty good antennas. But their performance really depends on how far you are from the transmitters, I don't see you being more then 30 miles from them though.

Go to http://www.antennaweb.org and enter your zip, to see how far you are. For best results, enter your full address.

Originally posted by MadMonkey
Does anyone have any opinions about these antennas?

RECOTON TV3000 UHF/VHF ANTENNA
SS-1000 or SS-2000 SquareShooter DTV/HDTV Antenna


Winegard makes high quality stuff, and that's what I buy. However, I do not have any personal experience with the Square-Shooter antennas.

....jc

A couple of days ago I began having problems with KUSA's (9News) digital signal on my Dish 921. Reception is fine but I can't pause, skip or record the programming. I have the same problems with KCNC (News4) but that could have been happening for a long time (I ususally record the CBS-East feed). All the other stations I can receive work fine. I see on the forums that KCNC changed their PSIP data last month which caused a problem.

Is anyone else with a 921 having this problem? Did the KCNC problem ever get fixed?

Thanks,

Originally posted by Symbios
Those are both pretty good antennas. But their performance really depends on how far you are from the transmitters, I don't see you being more then 30 miles from them though.

Go to http://www.antennaweb.org and enter your zip, to see how far you are. For best results, enter your full address.
Thanks for that article. It's consistent with the impression I got from Tom Philand, which was that they're not going to be HD immediately, but when they're buying equipment, they're getting stuff that will work for HD as well in the medium-term future when they do go HD.

I was going to complain about an 18-month wait, but since there likely won't be any NHL games for at least another 12 months...

Originally posted by zanaberry
A couple of days ago I began having problems with KUSA's (9News) digital signal on my Dish 921. Reception is fine but I can't pause, skip or record the programming. I have the same problems with KCNC (News4) but that could have been happening for a long time (I ususally record the CBS-East feed). All the other stations I can receive work fine. I see on the forums that KCNC changed their PSIP data last month which caused a problem.

Is anyone else with a 921 having this problem? Did the KCNC problem ever get fixed?

Thanks,

Report your problems to Mark over at DBSTalk.com. Look for the 921 forums over there. Mark is a beta tester for 921.

Originally posted by Phil T
Report your problems to Mark over at DBSTalk.com. Look for the 921 forums over there. Mark is a beta tester for 921.
ahem.

Paging markdl...paging markdl... ;)

Does anyone know of the results on election day for the county commissioners that could have changed thus delaying the tower even longer?

It looks like Jim Congrove and J. Kevin McCasky are the two new (Republican) commissioners but I don’t know their positions on LCGII.

My 921 won't record OTA either. Not sure why yet?

Dosen't sound promising for the new Jeffco Commissioners

http://www.canyoncourier.com/articles/2004/07/29/news/top_story/top.txt

Good-bye sweet tower....

Just got an email from Mark (dbstalk) our Dish Expert!

KUSA & KCNC have changed their PSIP data and it's messing with our 921's. The next SW will fix it. (Not sure when Dish will release it)

CanyonCourier.com Thursday, November 4, 2004
Pulliam answered: "I did vote for that tower, and it's nothing that I'm ashamed of." However, Pulliam said that as a commissioner, he would vote against a current tower proposal before the board of county commissioners. The board is scheduled to hear that proposal Aug. 12.

August 12th!???

Is this correct? Like in another 10 months?

....jc

I think that the Canyon Courier web site updates the date with today's date. The article is actually old... perhaps a couple of months or so. It makes reading the text confusing to say the least.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
August 12th!???

Is this correct? Like in another 10 months?

....jc No that is the date the current BCC started their 2nd round of hearings before voting (again) to approve the tower.

----

I am encouraged by this comment from the article Iwanthd referenced: "Assessor Kevin McCasky, the sole Republican candidate in District 2, said that as a commissioner he would weigh all the information before voting on a tower proposal."

It sounds to me like Kevin McCasky has an open mind and wasn't afraid to take a "maybe" stance in front of a crowd that wanted to hear nothing but "hell no". Remember, it only takes two positive votes and Commissioner Sheehan is still in office (and he's voted "yes" twice already).

Better yet is that it won't take any votes at all if the Judge doesn't bounce the matter back to JeffCo again. At this point making sure all the i's are dotted and t's crossed is ultra-important before JeffCo resubmits the case back to the Judge. If there aren't any loopholes or omissions then the Judge can merely lift the injunction and let the build process begin.

Given that I would hope (and recommend) that Pete and the LCG get enough legal eyes on the resubmitted package before it's submitted to the Judge to help ensure that there are no unexpected surprises.

"It's ridiculous to build a tower because nobody is going to buy a $2,500 television without cable TV," said Woehr, who is running for Congress against Rep. Tom Tancredo.
Moot because he lost to Tancredo, but still:

What about the people buying the $800 HDTVs at Wal-Mart?

And further, when I spent $2700 on my HDTV 4 years ago, I was more than happy to put up an antenna and get absolutely free HD. Why should I pay for local channels?

Originally posted by santellavision
Just got an email from Mark (dbstalk) our Dish Expert!

KUSA & KCNC have changed their PSIP data and it's messing with our 921's. The next SW will fix it. (Not sure when they Dish will release it)

That's what I thought. Thanks for the reply. I'm going to email KUSA now and ask if they can change the PSIP back for a few weeks until Dish gets this worked out. It might be a long shot but who knows.

I have been having different issues with my 921 for the last couple of weeks. I can no longer even watch OTA HD, let alone record it. It just breaks the screen up into 6 equal rectangles, and then kind of hangs. I have had my 921 for almost a year now, and this is as bad as it's ever been. Hopefully the new software will fix some of the issues. I have always thought the internal tuner inside of it was week, since I never have ANY problems with my internal Sony TV tuner.

I wonder what internal tuners the HD Tivo and 921 have, and if they are similar?

Originally posted by MadMonkey
Does anyone have any opinions about these antennas?

RECOTON TV3000 UHF/VHF ANTENNA
SS-1000 or SS-2000 SquareShooter DTV/HDTV Antenna

THANKS :D

I have a SS-2000. I live in Parker & am having EXCELLENT results with this antenna. I have a pretty clear shot toward Lookout & have it mounted up near the eave. I pick up EVERYTHING except for Channel 7 - suprise suprise... I don't get any breakups or anything - crystal clear (and it looks nice!).

-robert

Have any of you seen this? WHAT A JOKE! The only thing even close to being true would be the NBC (Channel 9).

http://www.iwantmyhdtv.com/iwanthdtv/media/co2.pdf

Wow. It's almost as if KMGH is lying to the FCC about the strength/range of their toy DTV transmitter. But we know that can't be true...

Originally posted by JackinThornton
Have any of you seen this? WHAT A JOKE! The only thing even close to being true would be the NBC (Channel 9).

http://www.iwantmyhdtv.com/iwanthdtv/media/co2.pdf I'm not sure what it is I'm looking at.....surely even the FCC isn't stupid enough to believe this is the current coverage area.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Wow. It's almost as if KMGH is lying to the FCC about the strength/range of their toy DTV transmitter. But we know that can't be true...

Maybe, there are other reasons for this data(political or business).

Actually, for me it's 75% correct.
It indicates that I can get ABC, CBS & Fox. I can receive ABC & NBC but not Fox.
It also correctly indicates that I can't get NBC.

Interestingly, for KMGH, there's 1 little dot in Teller county at approximately my location, and I can receive KMGH.

However, it states that the info is as of July 2004, but it doesn't state if the info is for full broadcast power, or current levels of power.

....jc

Been very busy this week, and haven't had much online time.

The beta version that I'm currently using on my 921 has no problems at all with either KCNC or KUSA, so chances are once it spools to everyone, those particular problems will be fixed. Currently, my best guess is that the new software will spool either on the 18th or the 19th. It might be sooner, but not likely.

In other interesting Dish news, the price for the 921 has dropped. Yesterday, the MSRP dropped from $999 to $549.

Also, I heard on KUSA's 6:00am newscast this morning that tomorrow only (Saturday the 5th), Dish will be selling their 34" HDTVs at a price of $499 from the Pepsi Center parking lot. My guess is that this price will be available only to new Dish customers who will have to agree to a year or two of some level of programming committment. But, even with that, $499 for that television is dirt cheap.

Haha, I saw that map, what a load of crap. According to that, I should easily be getting KCNC, KUSA, and KMGH, but I don’t.

I just called about the dish deal above and the CSR told me (Can you really believe them?) that is only for Dish employees.

But, She did tell me that there is another deal for existing customers that includes their 34" HDTV and the 811 HD receiver for $499!

I think I am going to jump on that.

According to a couple of people that I've talked to this morning, there's an add in the papers describing the details. Saturday 8-4 in the Pepsi Center parking lot and in the Riverfront Center (Sante Fe and Bowles) parking lot.

All,

If this is the wrong forum, please point me the right way....

I live just northeast of the intersection of I-25 and I-225. I'm working on my first foray into HTPC, so don't laugh, but I'm trying to get OTA to my HDTV using the HDTV Wonder.

I probably should have asked this before I bought any additional antennas, but long story short, I now have three antennas, but I'm having trouble with a configuration to get the best performance on the most stations. (I'm only using two, and feeding them into a combiner).

I'd be happy getting good digital reception from Lookout Mountain and downtown (which is why I have multiple antennas in the first place).

1) Antenna that came with HDTV Wonder (which works ok by itself)
2) This unamplified UHF antenna from Radioshack
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-2160
3) This amplified antenna from Radioshack
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2185

I would be glad to go into what I've tried, but suffice it to say I think using the amplified antenna with either of the others amplifies the noise of the other so the other gets crappy reception. But the amplified antenna by itself gets better reception than either of the others.

Can the people that have fought this battle before give me some pointers?

Please?

Thanks,
Brett

Brett,

Have you noted which stations are attainable with just one antenna?

These signals are so darn weak that additional connections can - and usually do - make the difference between getting and not getting a particular station. IIRC each f-fitting is somewhere around a 3db loss.

I've got my antenna running straight through to my receiver. I'm using a CM 4228, which really is a great unit.

I opted for a rotator. Yes, pricey, but well worth it in the long run, as it may still be some time before we see any signal strength around here.

Just my 2¢.

You're in the right thread, Brett. Tell us more about your scenario. Where are you trying to mount these antenna's.. attic, outdoors?

Just what type of results are you getting on the various channels with any one antenna? From where you're located I'm surprised you cant get just about everything worth getting with just one decent antenna like the #2 unit you mentioned.

I would think by aiming it half way between downtown and Lookout that you'd fairly easily get all but 17 (ABC). Then with even more specific tweaking of the aim (and elevation/outdoors if necessary) perhaps 17 too.

Originally posted by stottle
I probably should have asked this before I bought any additional antennas, but long story short, I now have three antennas, but I'm having trouble with a configuration to get the best performance on the most stations. (I'm only using two, and feeding them into a combiner).

Brett,
Having more than 1 'active' antenna usually results in mediocre reception(unless you are stacking them). Yup, they will 'interfere' with each other. I would use the amplified antenna(alone), and fine tune it's direction. If that won't work, try using an 'A/B' switch to select the 'active' antenna. Dump the combiner.

HTH,
....jc

Thanks for the quick feedback, guys!

I'm trying to get as good a reception as possible from the attic space above the garage. From there I feed the cable to a double sided jack (hole in the garage, wall plate in the living room) to another (short) cable to the computer. I'm using fairly generic coax from radioshack. If I'm using multiple antennas, the combiner is in the garage.

The HDTV Wonder (to my knowledge) doesn't save channels. Every time I change my set up, I need to search for channels again, erasing the ones I already had. I haven't found a way around this for the HDTV Wonder. A rotater would be pointless in this situation, I would think.

I've yet to see 17 - ABC (ever). At one point with two antennas (didn't have the one with the preamp installed) I was able to get 2-1 (WB), 4-1 (CBS), 6-1 (KRMA), 9-1 (NBC), 31-1 (Fox), and 38-1 (KBDI). At times I've also gotten 12-1, 12-2, 12-3 (KDBI), but not with this last setup. Unforunately, my reception ranges from 50-80%, and I get a fair amount of stuttering on most stations.

Brett

Well like H2O said, you're prolly losing signal along the line due to the wall plate etc considering the low power on these stations. Ideally you'd just have a direct run from the antenna to the tuner.

And then as TPW said if you want to use multiple antennas you're better off with just an A/B coaxial switch to only feed one at a time to the tuner.

I'd take one antenna (whichever one you deem to be the best) and split the diff tween Lookout and downtown to get most of the channels 2-1, 4-1, 6-1, 9-1, 31-1 (all but 17 unless you want to bother putting your antenna outdoors it sounds like to at least have a shot at it). Theres really no reason you shouldnt be able to get those 5 adequately with just the one antenna.

Then you mentioned 12-1 and 38-1, arent they both the same channel? KBDI.. with some subchannels but no HD anyway. In any event, if any of these channels needed a 2nd antenna and an A/B switch it would be that one since it doesnt come from either Lookout or downtown but rather Squaw Mtn.

I'm in the process of setting up just one antenna (the one with the preamp) pointed halfway between lookout and downtown. Hope that works.

As for the question of 38 and 12 both being KBDI, the times I've received all four channels (three on 12 and one on 38) they were all different programs.

Brett

Originally posted by stottle
As for the question of 38 and 12 both being KBDI, the times I've received all four channels (three on 12 and one on 38) they were all different programs.


Wha!? That just can't be.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure my memory is correct. It's been awhile since I had that antenna set up, but I thought 38 had some sort of woodworking program, while 12 had two different cartoons and (other) household construction show.

If I get all four again I'll provide more info.

Brett

38.x is KBDI without remapping - 12.x is KBDI when they remap the channel number using PSIP. KBDI is currently not remapping and showing up on 38.3, 38.4, 38.5 for me. Yet, the guide data still shows up on 12.1, 12.2, 12.3 because my STB gets the guide data exclusively from D*, ignoring any guide data OTA.

KBDI is currently not remapping and showing up on 38.3, 38.4, 38.5 for me

So I'm not the only one seeing it! Thought I was going insane for a second there. :P

So, KBDI is foregoing quality HD in order to do multi-casting? If true... AAARRGH!!!

Yes, it is true. I hate it too, I can't get KRMA so KBDI was my only chance to see HD PBS but they're multicasting!. I do enjoy PBS-U though, I could care less about PBS Kids LOL.

Anybody see LOTR tonight? Pretty damn nice PQ huh? I figured it would be slightly grainy like all the other HD programs the WB broadcasts, but it wasn't. I was amazed.

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
So, KBDI is foregoing quality HD in order to do multi-casting? If true... AAARRGH!!!

It won't be an issue in the immediate future - a quote from the email I received from them last week:

"We hope to include HD programming in our digital schedule during the next calendar year, and hope that you will enjoy the programs."

They have been responsive to our feedback in the past (hence, no more constant, big, bright logo on 12-2), so hopefully our feedback in the future can continue to provide mutual benefit as well.

Originally posted by Symbios
Anybody see LOTR tonight? Pretty damn nice PQ huh? I figured it would be slightly grainy like all the other HD programs the WB broadcasts, but it wasn't. I was amazed.

Also in DD 5.1 sound, which was nice. Supposedly all of the WB's HD programming will be in 5.1 from here on out.

Now if only KMGH would fix their 5.1 issues and KUSA would pass along NBC's 5.1 feed....

Pretty sad that the "small" guys around here (Fox and WB) are the only ones passing 5.1 on anything other than live broadcasts. They also happen to be the only ones on Lookout with halfway decent power. Things that make you go hmmmmm.

Oh yeah the sound was great too. Except about 20 minutes in, they had some problems. It kept switching from DD 5.1 to 2.1, which really made my receiver go nuts. So I just switched my STB to PCM only.

KUSA doesn’t broadcast 5.1!? (I can get them, so I don’t know) I thought they were “Leading the way in HDTV�, guess not. :rolleyes:

I only watched some of the end of the movie. I didn't think the PQ was all that great and since it was not OAR, we turned it off. Too many commercials anyway, even with Tivo. I agree that the 5.1 sounded good.

The commercials didn't really bother me. I thought there would be a ton of them, but there wasn't. I guess I'm used to the insane amounts of commercials CBS airs with there made for TV movies.

Originally posted by Symbios
Oh yeah the sound was great too. Except about 20 minutes in, they had some problems. It kept switching from DD 5.1 to 2.1, which really made my receiver go nuts. So I just switched my STB to PCM only.
Whatever they were doing with the sound, my SIR-T151 didn't like it at all. It made the movie unwatchable, and I turned it off at that point.

I wouldn't worry too much about KBDI not doing HD -- KRMA does a good job of giving us PBS-HD content.

Originally posted by dr_mal
I wouldn't worry too much about KBDI not doing HD -- KRMA does a good job of giving us PBS-HD content.

Well, I can't get KRMA OTA, but I can get KBDI. So I'd sure like to see some HD programming on KBDI.

Ditto. Funny thing, there are those who see KMGH's parking lot as smaller than the one with the Republic Plaza stations on it, but to me, they look to be the same size.

Originally posted by mknoebel
Well, I can't get KRMA OTA, but I can get KBDI. So I'd sure like to see some HD programming on KBDI.
That's right. My bad.

Grrr. Audio problems again while watching LOTR. And it was about 20 minutes in just like yesterday. I had to watch it in crappy analog. :(

Even if I could see LOTR on the WB, I wouldn't watch it... no oar, edited, and all those damn commercials!!!!!!!!! What a way to watch a movie, even if it was HD.

It's blue laser discs or bust!!

Is there a local source in colorado for channel master uhf antennas? I live in loveland and if I am going to get KUSA I need a different antenna since who knows when the tower is going up.

I don't think there is. Stark electronics (mail order) is a good cheap place to get them.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmuhf.htm

Originally posted by colofan
Is there a local source in colorado for channel master uhf antennas? I live in loveland and if I am going to get KUSA I need a different antenna since who knows when the tower is going up.

You've got mail!

If you want a Channel Master VHF/UHF outdoor antenna, Lowe's carries them.

I was just going to say that. They don't have a very good selection though --well my store didn't anyway.

So I got mine (the 3671) from Solidsignal.com for $117, I don't know how they can sell those things so cheap; all other online stores sold it for about $160. And it arrived the next day with standard shipping! (It came form Nevada I believe).

$117!!!! For that price, they better come over and install the thing!

You can get a 3023 Channelmaster from Stark for $44. or a 2031 for $24! These are great antennas too.

The 3671 IS that much better than a 3023. If you are out in marginal / fringe area, the 3671 just might pull in a signal that the cheaper antenna can't. They certainly are more directional - good for multipath areas.

I just picked up an antenna from Mark and I want to thank him in public for helping out a fellow coloradoan :)

Thanks Mark

Yeah, at 110"W x 173"L, it had better pull in a few stations! Now that's what I call a BFA! :p

Well the other thing too is that it's a VHF/UHF combo unit. If all you cared about was UHF then I dont know that antenna is any better than the biggest UHF only Yagi which in and of itself is a monster at 80" long.

Is the UHF portion of the combo unit longer/bigger than that?

I'd say it's about that long, maybe a little less. That's a huge guess though, it's freezing out, so I'm not going up to measure it!

But I just mentioned the 3671 to show how great Solid Signals prices are. I wasn't really sugggesing he buy it.

I hear ya, Sym. I've used www.warrenelectronics.com in the past and they have good prices too. For example, the antenna you have goes for like 118.00 there as well. Didnt bother looking at shipping costs which could factor in too though.

About a year ago I got the biggest channelmaster Bowtie from them (switched from one of those 80" Yagi's) and for *me* the big Bowtie worked better. In either case using such a big antenna because it's the diff tween getting 17 or not from my locale.

With the big Yagi there was too much varience depending on the time of year for certain channels. I couldnt get 17 reliably or dropout free unless there was leaves on the trees. For some strange reason 35 was just the opposite. But with this Bowtie the reception stays about the same year round (in a good way) on all of them.

Course with the nature of these low power signals everything I just said might be just the opposite for a guy a few blocks away. ;)

I have an 80" CM Yagi (3023) and it stays consistent year round. I can get 17 and I don't want to mess with it at all! I got it from Stark Electronics for about $50.

Aka:
I'm pretty sure you can get Comcast HD in Lafayette. I've got a buddy in Erie who gets it.
Don't take the joke about full power soon seriously. That's the line we got from KMGH's laywers about 3 years ago!
cheers, Greg

Just curious if CSI was in HD on KCNC?? It isn't being passed in HD on KGWN. I called and they told me that it was an issue with CSI and that it would be back to HD for Without a Trace.

Originally posted by AkaStp
It is? When? Will this result in being able to get 4.1 and 9.1 digital channels without having to install a LD antenna? I'm just about to look at installing a LD antenna. SS-2000 didn't work well enough for me here. Perhaps I should wait?

If you do, it'll be a long wait! It could be years before we see that tower built.

Originally posted by mknoebel
Just curious if CSI was in HD on KCNC?? It isn't being passed in HD on KGWN. I called and they told me that it was an issue with CSI and that it would be back to HD for Without a Trace.

CSI was in HD tonight from KCNC.

Originally posted by AkaStp
But not in Lafayette! I got a flier in the mail yesterday from them about availability of HDTV in my area without the need for sat dish or antenna, etc. So I go to check it out, entered my Zip code (80026) and found no HD channels available. How can Comcast claim availability of HDTV in my area and not supply it? You might call Comcast. I think it takes them awhile to update their web site.

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
CSI was in HD tonight from KCNC.

Thanks AF,

KGWN flipped the switch right after I called them and the rest was in HD.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Where can ABC 7.1 HD digital station be found? It isn't appearing on antennaweb.org (CBS, NBC and PBS do though). Is it the same direction?

Most folks would answer that 7.1 can be found in their (Kmgh) parking lot and not too far beyond that. It is in the same general direction as the others, but their antenna is not on the higher republic bldg like the others, but rather their own studio, which in addition, I think, to some other factors, results in their signal having far less range that the others you mention. Enter kmgh as a search phrase for more kmgh rants than you can shake a yagi at.

If all you want is the Locals in HD you keep Basic or Standard cable and then just get an HD STB. You can also add Digital Classic for an extra 9.99 if you want and that will get you ESPN HD, Discovery HD, and the 2 InHD's.

Any given CSR might try and tell you you need a more full blown Digital package just to get HD at all but it's not true. keep tryin til you get one that understands.

DP1, If I currently have D* and want to add Comcast HD locals as you suggest, Do I have to add a Comcast HD STB at each TV, or if the cable is coming in through a Terk 5x8 multiswitch can I just diplex the signal at the D* HD STB?

Originally posted by Iwanthd
DP1, If I currently have D* and want to add Comcast HD locals as you suggest, Do I have to add a Comcast HD STB at each TV, or if the cable is coming in through a Terk 5x8 multiswitch can I just diplex the signal at the D* HD STB? I'm not Dan (DP1) but that won't work. Cable HD signals are modulated using QAM (not 8VSB) so your D* tuner cannot demodulate the signal. What you need is a QAM capable receiver - many of the newer OTA HD receivers will do both 8VSB (ATSC) and QAM but D* intentionally disables QAM capability.

Thanks Geof. I should have known that cable and satellite would not play nice together in the same sandbox. Can I still use the same coax run from the multswitch and diplex to a QAM capable box?

Originally posted by Iwanthd
Thanks Geof. I should have known that cable and satellite would not play nice together in the same sandbox. Can I still use the same coax run from the multswitch and diplex to a QAM capable box?

Well what is your goal here specifically? How many other tv's do you want to run the Comcast Local HD channels to and are they all HD capable?

My DBS systems and cable tv are totally seperate but I run the HD Locals to 2 displays out of one Comcast box. One via the Component/DVI output and one out the RF output just to an old analog tv. And I can watch the HD channels on it that way although naturally the 2 displays would be showing the same channel if they were both on at the same time.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
Thanks Geof. I should have known that cable and satellite would not play nice together in the same sandbox. Can I still use the same coax run from the multswitch and diplex to a QAM capable box? I'm not sure. A diplexer might work. A diplexer is different from a combiner/splitter in that it works over different frequency ranges. Satellite is (as I recall) over 2GHz and UHF/VHF is less than 1GHz. The fact that a diplexer is combining (or splitting) signals from two different frequency ranges allows it to do so with a lower loss than a combiner/splitter. All I can say is try it. You won't hurt anything. Let us know if it works!

Originally posted by AkaStp
Thanks. Yes, the CSR is telling me I need the full digital cable package.
Are you saying that HD is flowing through the cable at all times and so doesn't need to be somehow enabled for me? So, I can can hook up a HD STB of my own choosing and be able to get the HD channels?
Can you give me an example of a suitable STB? Presumably the Samsung TS360 DirectTV HD receiver won't work, even though it has cable input and can do OTA HD?Sorry for the stupid questions, I'm not really familiar with cable (especially digital + HD) as I've been a long-time DirectTV customer so am just trying to get up to speed on alternatives. My mindset is satellite.

Well I guess if you had your own QAM capable STB as Geof touched on above you could do it that way (for the Locals but not ESPN HD or the InHD's, movie channels etc because they're scrambled) but I dont know anything about any of those type boxes. I just pay the 5 or 6 a month for the Comcast HD STB. For one reason, I hadnt used cable tv myself for like 15 years before a few months ago and I just wanted to give them a try on the HD.. so since I didnt already have a QAM tuner, I wasnt going to go buy one just for that.

The other reason was because I already had a D-VHS deck and the Comcast box has Firewire output so I can go ahead and timeshift/archive the HD channels that way.

So I simply sub to Basic cable (for the HD Locals) and Digital classic (for the InHD's etc I mentioned earlier).. plus the STB rental. Thats like 13.44 + 9.99 + 5.00 a month. Well then I sub to a couple of the movie channels ala-carte for the HD versions of those channels as well. Could just get those from the DBS co's (since I still get some HD channels from DBS that Comcast doesnt have.. like the HDNets) but again since I can save them in HD I get them from cable instead at least for now.

FYI, theres a seperate thread for Denver Comcast discussion also. It's like on page 3 of this forum at the moment.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Thanks. Yes, the CSR is telling me I need the full digital cable package.
Are you saying that HD is flowing through the cable at all times and so doesn't need to be somehow enabled for me? So, I can can hook up a HD STB of my own choosing and be able to get the HD channels?
Can you give me an example of a suitable STB? Presumably the Samsung TS360 DirectTV HD receiver won't work, even though it has cable input and can do OTA HD?Sorry for the stupid questions, I'm not really familiar with cable (especially digital + HD) as I've been a long-time DirectTV customer so am just trying to get up to speed on alternatives. My mindset is satellite. You may want to browse the Denver Comcast thread but I believe the answer is as Dan stated earlier....you can get the local HD (non-premium) channels without paying for the digital package. You will need an OTA receiver which is capable of decoding QAM. You can check the receiver specs to determine if it's cable capable. That said, any OTA receiver would likely NOT be able to decode premium HD cable channels (like Dan just said). Depending on what you want you may wish to rent the HD box from Comcast.

I'm in Louisville, near McCaslin and Century. Using a DB4 antenna on my roof from antennasdirect.com facing more toward downtown than Lookout Mtn, no pre-amp (at the moment, might try one tomorrow) with a HR10-250 HDTiVo I get:

KUSA-NBC (16, 9-1): 57 (tuner 2 is steady, but tuner 1 is jumping all over right now)
KRMA-PBS (18, 6-1): 68
KDVR-FOX (32, 31-1): 88
KWGN-WB (34, 2-1): 80
KCNC-CBS (35, 4-1): 71

No other signals registering. If I try the pre-amp, I'll re-post results.

Rob.

Radio Shack TV RF Amps aren't too great . If you need an anp, look at Winegard or Channelmaster. There have been cases that a RS amp actually WORSENED the individual's HDTV reception.

Originally posted by AkaStp
If all fails, I'm looking at maybe getting a CM 4221 (4228 is too big) or a DB2 or DB4.

I have a 4221 and a DB8 that have just been collecting dust in my garage since I gave up fighting with the Condo Association and sold my soul to the "cable pig." You're welcome to give one or both a try if you'd like.

I saw the article in the Rocky Mt.News today about the new 50 story building downtown scheduled to be done in 2007.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/real_estate/article/0,1299,DRMN_414_3325990,00.html

The picture looks like the empire state building (online edition dosen't show it).

It sure looks like it could have a large TV tower on top of it.

Could it be LCG 3 ? :)

Originally posted by Scooper
Radio Shack TV RF Amps aren't too great . If you need an anp, look at Winegard or Channelmaster. There have been cases that a RS amp actually WORSENED the individual's HDTV reception.

I have to strongly disagree. I have been using this RS amp (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D2507) for over a year and I would not receive KRMA, KCNC, and KUSA without it.

I have the same one as you, the RS, UHF-only yagi.

Originally posted by reger
I'm in Louisville, near McCaslin and Century. Using a DB4 antenna on my roof from antennasdirect.com facing more toward downtown than Lookout Mtn, no pre-amp (at the moment, might try one tomorrow) with a HR10-250 HDTiVo I get:

KUSA-NBC (16, 9-1): 57 (tuner 2 is steady, but tuner 1 is jumping all over right now)
KRMA-PBS (18, 6-1): 68
KDVR-FOX (32, 31-1): 88
KWGN-WB (34, 2-1): 80
KCNC-CBS (35, 4-1): 71

What else were you expecting?

You should be able to get KWHD-DT (53-1) as well, though they only send a 480i signal.

You won't be able to get KMGH-DT (dream on), and probably won't be able to get KBDI-DT either (we're somewhat shadowed by being too close to the foothills.)

Remember, this is digital, so if you can pick up the stations without tiling, there's no need for a preamp...

Originally posted by AkaStp
Anyone know why we can't get UPN 20 (KTVD-DT) around here using OTA? Because they're not on the air!

Unlike the other three stations in the LCG consortium, KTVD does not have a temporary DT broadcast in place. AFAIK they have no plans for any DT broadcast until the LCG tower is completed.

Originally posted by sunshinedawg
I have to strongly disagree. I have been using this RS amp (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D2507) for over a year and I would not receive KRMA, KCNC, and KUSA without it. I had the same RS signal amp and I'll agree to disagree with Scooper. Yes, it is crap (as most RS stuff is) but it worked for me for a couple years. I thought it died all of a sudden and I replaced it with the same RS model and the new one would work for a little while (1-2 hrs.) and then signel would drop to next to nothing. I kept suspecting the signal amp but it turned out to be a corroded center conductor on the cable where it connected to a grounding block outside the house. The cable connector had no little booty and the grounding block was tilited so it collected water (all my fault, I'll admit). Of course, I didn't figure that out until I had switched to the CM 7777!

I actually had more signal with the RS model because it had adjustable gain and it worked best for me if the gain was turned to the lowest. That 10db little thingy might end up working the best -- try everything in every combination and trust the results. Don't be partial to any preconceived idea of what you think would work the best.

Originally posted by RonAuger

I actually had more signal with the RS model because it had adjustable gain and it worked best for me if the gain was turned to the lowest. That 10db little thingy might end up working the best -- try everything in every combination and trust the results. Don't be partial to any preconceived idea of what you think would work the best.

I couldn't have said it better myself. You just need to try different things. Don't assume anything. Good reception around here is all about attention to the small details.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Well, I'm having some success with the RS Yagi + 10db inline preamp. However, I'm wondering what is normal for picture breakups. Would a very brief (~1 second) breakup 2-3 times an hour be considered normal? I'm used to no such breakups with D*.
Depends on what channel you're seeing the breakup on.

Frankly, the networks themselves have occasional problems with breakups in transmission and the locals also have occasional encoder issues as well.

For better or worse, the WB is one of the networks that has lots of HD issues week after week, and I detected a few audio dropouts during KCNC's broadcast of Category 6.

Likewise, KUSA often has a dropout or two during their news broadcasts but not as often during network feeds, so I think they still have some studio equipment glitches from time to time.

Finally, don't forget that UHF is line of sight, so something a simple as an airplane getting in the signal path between you and the transmitter will cause a momentary loss of signal and a picture breakup...

Finally, don't forget that UHF is line of sight, so something a simple as an airplane getting in the signal path between you and the transmitter will cause a momentary loss of signal and a picture breakup...Not true. I live up in Genesee and have two hills blocking my antenna (CM4023 in the garage) And I don't have line of sight, but can still pull in downtown. So, that's not an absolute.

For better or worse, the WB is one of the networks that has lots of HD issues week after week, and I detected a few audio dropouts during KCNC's broadcast of Category 6.

Likewise, KUSA often has a dropout or two during their news broadcasts but not as often during network feeds, so I think they still have some studio equipment glitches from time to time.


I did not get any audio dropouts last night on Category 6 with channel 35 on a DTC-100. In Thornton, I am getting very good signal strength.

Also, (I have to admit this) I regularly watch KUSA news on channel 16 and never get audio dropouts. My signal strength is always in the 88-90 range. I still am boycotting KMGH so I don't feel completely dirty.

I do have an advantage of visual line of sight to Republic Plaza.

Don

Have you no shame Don.... ;) :D

I never notice any dropouts on my DTC-100, except on KRMA . This also happens to be my weakest signal, which is usally in the low 60's. Category 6 on KCNC was glitch free for me. Oh, I forgot, I also get one really, really long droput on 17-1. ;)

Originally posted by donyoop
I did not get any audio dropouts last night on Category 6 with channel 35 on a DTC-100. In Thornton, I am getting very good signal strength.

Hmmm... perhaps it was just bad audio then. I normally don't get audio dropouts from KCNC, so that's why I was surprised to hear them go by. They were both near the end...

Originally posted by santellavision
Not true. I live up in Genesee and have two hills blocking my antenna (CM4023 in the garage) And I don't have line of sight, but can still pull in downtown. So, that's not an absolute. Well AkaStp and I are both within a few miles of JeffCo, so that may also be an issue. When certain planes fly over I can see even my analog OTA signal go nuts...

I'm guessing its around 10-12db.

If you're talking about the 15-2160 which is about 40" long (as opposed to a UHF Yagi they used to sell that was about 80" long), the specs on that one say the average gain is 9.5 db.

Hmm, I was pretty close. Where did you find the specs on that thing? I couldn't find them anywhere.

If you pull the product up on their website you can then click on "Support Documents". Then on the new page you click on "Specifications".

Nah, not necessarily. With our lower power BS it's just a bunch of trial and error. For me, after using a Yagi for about 2.5 years with decent success, I then tried, and found out, that a big Bowtie works better (less dropouts on a couple channels where those were previously an issue). For others, the Yagi works better. What works best for you may not work best for a guy a mile away.

I tried a couple diff Yagi's. At first, the one you use, then the bigger one thats twice as long (CM4248). Then I went to the Channelmaster Bowtie. The bigger of the 2 they offer. Mine is like 3 foot square (4228) and the other (4221) is 3' high and half as wide.

You can check out the various ones here in the UHF only group:

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/Chmaster_ant.htm

Originally posted by AkaStp
This is a lot more fun that hooking up a QAM receiver to cable. ;)

Well good! It's great you have that attitude because you're gonna need it. ;)

I have 3 OTA digital tuners (incorporated with DBS receivers.. not standalone or integrated into a set) but I almost never use them for simple viewing since I got Comcast. I only use them to record off of sometimes when theres HD programming conflicts. But by the same token I wouldnt have bothered with Comcast just for Locals either since I do get them OTA.. They just so happen to have other HD programming I want as well that the DBS co's dont offer.

Originally posted by DP1
I have 3 OTA digital tuners (incorporated with DBS receivers.. not standalone or integrated into a set) but I almost never use them for simple viewing since I got Comcast.

So, DP1, which of your OTA receivers is the best at picking up signals?

I went to a lot of trouble to get an LG LSS-3200A(not manufactured anymore) because I was told by reputable people, that it was the best. However, my testing indicates that the integrated tuner in my Mits WS-65511 does a better job. So, I am impressed with the tuners that Mits is making.

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
So, DP1, which of your OTA receivers is the best at picking up signals?

I went to a lot of trouble to get an LG LSS-3200A(not manufactured anymore) because I was told by reputable people, that it was the best. However, my testing indicates that the integrated tuner in my Mits WS-65511 does a better job. So, I am impressed with the tuners that Mits is making.

....jc

Oh heck, TPW, I dunno. To begin with they're all old. Like 3 and 4 years so they're all 1st or 2nd generation units. And 2 of them are the same model anyway (OTA Modules in 2 E* 6000 type receivers). I'm not sure the 3rd, in the Mitsu SR-HD5 D* HD receiver, is appreciabley better or worse.

They all seem to work about the same when it comes to the ability to tune the various channels. Before I got the best antenna rig for my particular situation I guess the Mitsu might've done a bit better job on what were marginal signals at the time, like on 17. But with the better antenna they all get 17 just fine although with no room for error.

I'm sure any of the newer receivers would be better.. or certainly not any worse.

Originally posted by AkaStp
It would be nice if HD tuners like the LG 3xxx or Sammy 451 would have separate antenna AND cable inputs so they could pick up both OTA and QAM rather than just one or the other.
The LSS-3200A does have seperate antenna and cable connections. However, no QAM, just analog cable.:mad:

....jc

Don't place too much emphasis on antenna gain numbers. Gain means absolutely nothing unless you know at what frequency the measurement was taken. Antennas (especially UHF Yagi's) are not flat devices....gain will vary all across the frequency band. It does you no good to have a high gain at a specific frequency that isn't being used in Denver (and it also doesn't help to have low gain on a channel that is being used). The bottom line is comparing antennas is not as simple as you would hope. I suspect that in practice similar size Yagi's yield similar gains (like it or not this IS a case where bigger IS almost always better). And while your at it, in addition to gain versus frequency variations, all Yagi's have gain that varies with the angle in which the signal arrives (relative to the primary axis of the antenna). This makes Yagi's directional and that can work for or against you at any particular channel depending on your specific situation.

Originally posted by AkaStp
I was referring to QAM capable HD receivers (emphasis on HD - is there anything other than QAM for HD from cable?) like the LG 3510 and Sammy 451 which don't seem to have the ability to handle OTA or cable but not both. :)
The LSS-3200A is a D* HD receiver.;)

I thought I was beginning to understand antennas but now I'm not so sure anymore. How can I be sure which is the best kind to get here? Is a Yagi the right kind or would I do better with a CM 4221 or a DB2 or a DB4 or what? How do I figure that out aside from buying and installing each type and annoying my wife and my neighbors?
This is too simple, you can't. You can buy the biggest wizbang thing you can find, and then go over to your neighbor's house, where he has a tin can in a tree with an RG-6 dangling from it, and he gets better reception. I've always called antennas a black art because dealing with them is just that. You might get lucky, you might not. It usually boils down to location, location, location.

....jc

Well it's like Dan said earlier....what works best for one guy might not work best for another (and you could even be neighbors). Personally I like the 4221 and 4228 antennas and if you can place one of those against a chimney wall (for example) and paint it the same color as the wall you'd have pretty slick setup (IMO). Leonard has a CM4221 (or is it the 4228?) against his house which I thought looked very unobtrusive. A Yagi isn't a bad solution eiither....just go with something that has been used successfully by AVS members...I would not be plowing new ground in the hopes of uncovering a gem.

All I was really trying to say earlier is don't use gain as the sole factor in your selection process.

Hello all!

For anyone interested in attending, we have arranged to get two new projectors for a mini-shootout this weekend - the SIM HT300E plus a JVC HX2. For anyone interested in front projection, you might come check these out - the SIM features the latest HD2 chip from TI, the Dark Chip 3, and the JVC features much improved contrast over previous DILA projectors. As always, we will be showing these without any kind of sales pitch for anyone who wants to see them.

The shootout will be held at my new home/showroom on the north end of Colorado Springs, at Gleneagle and I-25. I point this out because it is only about 25 minutes from south Denver, making it a short drive for any Denver AVS'ers.

We will also have my regular demos, the Screenplay 7205 and 4805, there to compare as well.

Right now we are scheduled for Saturday afternoon, between 2-5 pm.

We are very excited about both of these pieces - the SIM looked great at CEDIA, and we were impressed with the limited look we got at the HX-2 last week at our Denver distributor.

Sorry about the short notice, but we just got notification that we could get these and did not want to conflict with everyone's Thanksgiving plans!

Please contact me at the number/e-mail below if interested in attending.

Thanks!

John

Originally posted by AkaStp
I thought I was beginning to understand antennas but now I'm not so sure anymore. How can I be sure which is the best kind to get here? Is a Yagi the right kind or would I do better with a CM 4221 or a DB2 or a DB4 or what? How do I figure that out aside from buying and installing each type and annoying my wife and my neighbors? I'm partial to the CM4228, which works for me up here northeast of Boulder. The CM4221 might work for you since you are closer to downtown than I am, but I would start with the big one unless you are really hoping to get by with the smaller one for aesthetic reasons. The cost difference isn't enough to worry about IMHO. I suspect the Winegard bowties do just as well as the Channel Masters.

Which of these describes your location?
a) can see the tips of the skyscrapers from an upstairs window
b) can't see the buildings, but relatively flat terrain and distant ridges in the direction of downtown
c) down in a valley with a big ridge near you in the direction of downtown.

For (a) almost anything will work, even an indoor antenna like the Zenith Silver Sensor. For (c) you may well be screwed no matter what antenna you get.

And of course you can forget about KMGH. There ain't nothing on the market strong enough to pull that in from the north end of town.

A 4221 and 4228 can be put against the house...and yes, you do need to point them towards the low power antennas.

You will lose signal by putting the antenna in the attic. It's hard to tell how much difference there would be between your current setup and having an antenna in the attic. A useful data point would be to (even temporarily) put your existing antenna in the attic and compare what you have now to what you get with the antenna in the attic. With that info you'll have a much better idea of what you're facing and what it will take to get the job done. I (personally) would not buy anything until I tried that experiment.

Unfortunately I think hell will experience a cold spell before you find a single receiver that does D*, OTA and Cable. You can get two out of three as long as D* and Cable aren't the two....

Originally posted by AkaStp
What I was referring to was a HD receiver that could receive HD from cable (QAM) and HD via OTA.
Ok, take a look at the LST-4200A. It has dual tuners, 1 for OTA, and 1 for QAM(unscrambled). I would assume that it has an RF connection for each. It is supposed to be the best.

I have an LSS-3200A, and unfortunately, the tuner in my Mits WS-65511 does a better job. I would love to get a 4200A up here to see if it's a better receiver.

....jc

Originally posted by Geof
Unfortunately I think hell will experience a cold spell before you find a single receiver that does D*, OTA and Cable. You can get two out of three as long as D* and Cable aren't the two....

True that, but I dont get his earlier comment about how the LG 3510 "receives one or the other but not both" in regards to OTA/QAM. Now as I've said many times I dont really know anything about those boxes except that I thought they could do both.

Could he have meant "both at the same time without re-configuring when going from one to the other" or something? Did'nt you have one of the LG tuners at one point yourself, Geof?

Originally posted by DP1
True that, but I dont get his earlier comment about how the LG 3510 "receives one or the other but not both" in regards to OTA/QAM. Now as I've said many times I dont really know anything about those boxes except that I thought they could do both.

Could he have meant "both at the same time without re-configuring when going from one to the other" or something? Did'nt you have one of the LG tuners at one point yourself, Geof? I had a OTA/QAM model only for a brief period of time but I don't think you could seamlessly switch between QAM and OTA....

Gotcha, thanks.

Originally posted by Geof
I had a OTA/QAM model only for a brief period of time but I don't think you could seamlessly switch between QAM and OTA....
It's really hard to tell what AkaStp was trying to tell us, but, the LG boxes are pretty sweet.

If you let it do it's programming 'thing', it will find everything out there. For instance, take Cheyenne channel 5, KGWN. I also subscribe to D* C/S local channels, and C/S has a channel 5, KOAA.

So, if I enter '5' as the channel:
1st I get KGWN OTA channel 5 analog
then 'channel up' on the remote
2nd I get KOAA D* local channel analog
then 'channel up' on the remote
3rd I get KGWN OTA channel 5.1 digital

So, basically, I get 3 channel 5's, all from different sources(tuners). However, I have yet to figure out(if it's even possible), how to directly go to either of the latter channel 5's(KOAA D* analog & KGWN OTA digital).

Again, the LG products are very nice. Now if the &*^%$% thing would only pick up KDVR, my HD football viewing would be complete!

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
It's really hard to tell what AkaStp was trying to tell us, but, the LG boxes are pretty sweet.

If you let it do it's programming 'thing', it will find everything out there. For instance, take Cheyenne channel 5, KGWN. I also subscribe to D* C/S local channels, and C/S has a channel 5, KOAA.

So, if I enter '5' as the channel:
1st I get KGWN OTA channel 5 analog
then 'channel up' on the remote
2nd I get KOAA D* local channel analog
then 'channel up' on the remote
3rd I get KGWN OTA channel 5.1 digital

So, basically, I get 3 channel 5's, all from different sources(tuners). However, I have yet to figure out(if it's even possible), how to directly go to either of the latter channel 5's(KOAA D* analog & KGWN OTA digital).

Again, the LG products are very nice. Now if the &*^%$% thing would only pick up KDVR, my HD football viewing would be complete!

....jc

I think thats pretty much how all D* HD receivers with the so called Advanced Program Guide work. Which basically all of them have (except the oldest of all.. RCA DTC-100). On my Mitsu theres a "--" button on the remote for direct tuning of OTA digital channels. So like 5-1 etc. Not sure on the analog ones cuz I never tuned to them. ;)

And Aka, I get you now. Yeah thats a bummer that it's setup for either/or in regards to OTA/QAM.

Originally posted by AkaStp
If a 4221 were to be mounted against the house (I didn't know you could do that - I thought they had to have nothing behind them) would it need to be pointed directly at the CBS/NBC/PBS towers? Even though it is full of holes,the wire mesh at the back of a CM4221/4228 acts as a reflector pan to the bowties which are the actual receiving elements. So it doesn't matter what is behind the antenna. The only problem with mounting flush against the house is that you need a wall facing exactly the right direction. The CM 4221/4228 is very directional. Even so, if you optimize the orientation for KUSA, KCNC, KRMA then you will probably be able to get KDVR+KWGN also because of their higher power level.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for getting good reception in the attic.

You do not need open space behind a Yagi. I would not plan any installation with a bowtie flush to your wall with the hope it will pick up the low power stations. If you're going to do that mount the antenna sufficiently away from the wall so you can turn it to point downtown.

And, like I mentioned above, I suggest you use the antenna you already have and try it in various locations. If you get very strong signal levels you won't need any new antenna and if the signal level drops a whole bunch when you try the attic it might suggest you'll not be able to overcome that with a bigger antenna.

Experimenting with your existing antenna will also show you how touchy (or not) reception is as you rotate and tilt the antenna. And often times many here have found that inches (yes inches) can make a big difference in signal level. So, you may find some spots better suited than others.

I just want to add that you really need to try every option. I would get some help and test many locations before settling on just one. Hand-hold the antenna at different locations and have the other person check signal strength. I have found that even moving the antenna 2-3" up/down/right/left can make or break my reception!

Granted, a roof mount is most likely your best bet, but trying the attic might just work.

What is the best indoor antenna? Rabbit ear type antenna?

Originally posted by MadMonkey
What is the best indoor antenna? Rabbit ear type antenna? Silver Sensor.

Originally posted by santellavision
I just want to add that you really need to try every option. I would get some help and test many locations before settling on just one. Hand-hold the antenna at different locations and have the other person check signal strength. I have found that even moving the antenna 2-3" up/down/right/left can make or break my reception!

Granted, a roof mount is most likely your best bet, but trying the attic might just work. Exactly. This can't be done just on paper. Take antenna in hand and find out what works and what doesn't. Only then will the options become clear.

Originally posted by kucharsk
What else were you expecting?

You should be able to get KWHD-DT (53-1) as well, though they only send a 480i signal.

You won't be able to get KMGH-DT (dream on), and probably won't be able to get KBDI-DT either (we're somewhat shadowed by being too close to the foothills.)

Remember, this is digital, so if you can pick up the stations without tiling, there's no need for a preamp...

This was pretty much what I was expecting for the most part, a little better in fact. Didn't think I'd get the downtown transmitters so well. Was just posting for informational purposes (thougth I'd seen others doing this). The only thing that concerns/bothers me is the issue with tuner 1 not being steady on KUSA. It's fine on every other channel, and tuner 2 is fine with KUSA. Not sure what the issue might be.

So I guess with the signal strengths I'm seeing, and only having occassional tiling issues, I shouldn't bother with the pre-amp?

Rob.

FWIW, Tuner 2 in My HD TiVo has very poor signal strength on KUSA-DT while tuner 1 works fine. I don't know why that is but since I rarely watch KUSA I decided not to fight D* trying to get a replacement (that may or may not be any better).

I have the same issue with my HD Tivo on very weak KMGH. One tuner is OK (at 60) and the other is very poor (from 0 to 40 fluctuating). Many others (Tivo Community Forum) have reported this problem/design flaw with their HD Tivos on weak signals. Replacement units have not done any better.

Other than KMGH, I get the other digital stations just fine on both tuners. My weakest is KCNC with signals at about 80 on both tuners. All other stations are over 90. I use a CM 3023 long Yagi on a ten foot pole on my roof optimized to get KMGH.

But, as we all know, KMGH will "soon" begin broadcasting at full power from Lookout.

Another prob even after jerkin around for hours or days with diff antennas and diff placement is other things end up having the ability to come into play at some point later anyway. Again, especially when you're dealing with low power signals.

Like even weather. I dont know about anyone else but like whenever it gets stoopidly cold, it definitely changes the way some signals are received on my end. Or even more likely, things like whether theres foliage on the trees or not. Although at least the latter only changes every 6 months.

Now naturally the better your signal strengths at any given time, the better your chance of not having to worry about those changes. Like where I live 16 and 18 are/were perfect year round come hell or high water. But 17 and 35 werent due to issues I mentioned above. Although as I said, going to the bowtie helped, in my case at least, to counter those issues.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I have the same issue with my HD Tivo on very weak KMGH. One tuner is OK (at 60) and the other is very poor (from 0 to 40 fluctuating). Many others (Tivo Community Forum) have reported this problem/design flaw with their HD Tivos on weak signals. Replacement units have not done any better.

Other than KMGH, I get the other digital stations just fine on both tuners. My weakest is KCNC with signals at about 80 on both tuners. All other stations are over 90. I use a CM 3023 long Yagi on a ten foot pole on my roof optimized to get KMGH.

But, as we all know, KMGH will "soon" begin broadcasting at full power from Lookout. Yeah my KUSA signal is around 68 on the good tuner and swingin from 0-60 on the other tuner. I didn't know this was not curable with a replacement so thanks for that tidbit. I may try putting an amp in line but I really don't want to be messing around (and it does make a mess) in the attic to try something I doubt will help...

Dan, Your point is correct, one needs to get the best signal level you can to help ensure consistent receptionability (is that a word ?). I suspect when spring has sprung my reception issues on KUSA-DT will go away because I didn't have problems this past summer (although to be fair I really didn't look at KUSA too often and maybe I just got lucky).

The challenge I have now is that I have the 3023 and thought I would be able to get downtown better than the RS UHF only antenna and so far no luck. I know that this is a more directional antenna but I thought the extra gain would bring up the KUSA signal when the opposite so far has happened. I am in open country with no structures for at least a mile away.

This is so frustrating all because of the stupid tower people.

Colofan,

FWIW (not much, probably), when I lived in Loveland I didn't get squat with the RS UHF Yagi. I switched to the CM4228 and got solid reception on all the Denver DTV (except KMGH, of course). I did have to do some rearranging to accomodate the larger form factor of the 4228, so it ended up being 3-4 feet higher than the RS antenna was. I can't rule out that being the difference.

FWIW

I just had my HD Tivo replaced. One problem I always had was marginal strength from the locals (I live east of Parker). When I did get a signal on 4 or 9, it would be strongest on tuner 1 ( around 56) and fluctuate wildly (0 - 50) on tuner 2.

With the new unit my signal is around 68 on both station and is equal on both tuners. I now can receive the channels pretty consistently

George M

GeorgeM,
What kind/make of antenna are you using and where is it mounted? I'm considering more tweaks since I can't get KCNC_DT anymore since the seasons changed and the other 2 RP stations breakup wildly.

GeorgeM:

That is potentially good news since others have reported no change when getting a replacement. You might want to post that information on the Tivo Community Forum. Now I will have to think about a change out myself.

I also have one tuner that's much lower than the other. Thanks for the post George, I may have to give them a call as well. Who replaced it?? The store you bought it from or DirecTv?

I'll be interested in hearing if this is a trend or if GeorgeM just got lucky. Even though I'd have to go thru another big PITA setup with a slow menu system it would probably be worth getting my HD TiVo replaced before the warranty runs out if it fixes the tuner problem...and I still have the pesky sound dropouts and video freezes (until I change the channel) after a long period of inactivity.

D* replaces any broken HD Tivos (unless it was DOA from the store.) Lots of posts at Tivo Community about replacements. Be sure you ask for a higher level of support because the initial CSR probably won't even know what it is.

Since the weather has been getting colder, I have been getting breakups on KUSA and PBS. KCNC seems fine. Do atmospheric conditions effect DTV signals that much?

This is through a Dish Network 921 in Broomfield. I may get in the attic and tweak the antenna to see if that helps.

Originally posted by Dustin_Moore
Since the weather has been getting colder, I have been getting breakups on KUSA and PBS. KCNC seems fine. Do atmospheric conditions effect DTV signals that much?

This is through a Dish Network 921 in Broomfield. I may get in the attic and tweak the antenna to see if that helps.

Dustin,
All of us Denver 921 users have been having problems lately with KUSA, and KCNC (have not checked PBS). Supposedly the next software release of the 921 (which was supposed to be today, but has been delayed) will fix the issues. From what I understand, it has to do with the station/stations changing the PSIP data. My guess is you can no longer pause or "jump back" KUSA either.

Yeah, over the last month I have lost "Trick Play" functions on KUSA and KCNC. The thing is KUSA seems to breaking up badly. I don't know if a software update will fix this.

All of you who don't watch KUSA can go ahead and ignore the rest of this post. :)

KUSA's going to air the Parade Of Lights in HD again this year: link (http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=4d456279-0abe-421a-01ec-936cbbf0b2b1&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf)

I really enjoyed this last year -- I'm glad they're continuing the HD production.

I'll try to answer everyone's questions by giving you my history

I live East of Parker 6 miles. I sit below a ridge. I installed a Channel Master 4228 on my chimney to use with my old DTR100. Reception with that was marginal.

Reception with the HR10-250 on the HD (Digital) channels was always hit or miss also. I could always get Fox 31 very good. Channel 6 was also very good. Channel 12 was marginal. Channels 4 and 9 were sometime on and sometimes nothing. It was frustrating trying to watch anything because just when it got interesting it would break up and go out for minutes at a time. I seemed to be constantly trying to adjust the antenna ( I have a rotator installed). One thing I always noticed that tuner 1 was always stronger than tuner 2. In fact tuner 2 would fluctuate wildly going down to 0 a lot of the times. It was a waste of time to try an watch anything on that tuner and I never got a good recording on the local channels. I had pretty much concluded that without an extremely high antenna I was out of luck with locals.

Anyway I got one of the first units delivered to the Denver area because of a business relationship I have with one of the major distributors. Two things I notices right away was the reception on the locals (I was hoping for better since I had heard I would get that with this unit) and I had the well publicized problem of a loud squelch and then no sound when switching from a DD channel to a regular channel.

Finally about 3 weeks ago I got fed up and called DirecTV. The CSR agreed to send me a new unit which came right away. But let me tell you something. When they do this they do NOT send a new unit. Mine was used (scratched, marred, and did not have a re furbed sticker on it). Well I hooked it up anyway and found it did nothing about the sound problem ( I knew that was a long shot), but my local reception was much better. Stronger signal and equal signals on both tuners. Because I was miffed at what they sent me, I returned that one to DirecTV and contacted the distributor who I bought the original unit from. He replaced it with a new one and again the reception was much better and even signal on both tuners. Still has the sound problem, but I can live with that for now. At least now I can watch 4 and 9 without breakups and they record well.

I know this is long, but bottom line is that my reception improved on two different units. I would certainly try getting yours replaced if you experience the wild fluctuation in levels between tuners

George M

Originally posted by Dustin_Moore
Yeah, over the last month I have lost "Trick Play" functions on KUSA and KCNC. The thing is KUSA seems to breaking up badly. I don't know if a software update will fix this.

From what I understand, it is EXACTLY the software that is doing this. It has to with the driver or something of the internal HD tuner from what I have gathered from others.

I am just trying to save you some "attic time." My Signal strength is still the same on my other HD tuner, and picture quality and sound do not have breakups. That is why I am pretty sure it's the driver and PSIP changes that stations have done that are messing with the 921 tuner.

*PAGING MARK* *BEEEEP* *BEEEEP*

Mark may not be able to comment much about this for legal reasons, and his confidentiality agreement with Dish, but he may be able to confirm.

Also, try deleting all DTV stations in your setup on your 921, then reboot the 921 and leave it unplugged for about 30 seconds. Then plug it back in, let it reboot, and re-scan for OTA DTV stations. That is what I have to do to watch ER every week in HD. It makes it so KCNC and KUSA can tune again, but only for a day or two. You still will not have "trick play" but at least you can record shows, and actually tune the stations again without "Tileing/Bitmapping" effects.

Consider myself paged... :)

The next software version on the 921 will fix the trick play and recording problems that you're having with KCNC and KUSA. It probably won't do much for dropouts - those are signal related, and are most likely caused by the drop in temperature. If you've got your antenna in the attic, get it out of there and outside on the roof - you'll probably resolve all of those problems just by doing that.

The new software was supposed to be out yesterday, but it got delayed. Eldon has to wait on a new driver to be delivered by one of the chip manufacturers before the software can spool. We've gone through 4 different driver versions from them over the last 5 weeks, and hopefully the 5th one will finally get everything right.

But, with that bad news, the good news is that even though the software is now delayed until after Thanksgiving next week, Eldon isn't sitting back and just waiting. The 2 things that 921 users have wanted more than just about anything else are going to be added to the upcoming version now as well (not firewire - has to do with local channels, and I can't be more specific than that right now).

That's the story as of this morning. :)

Why is it that deleting and re-adding OTA with the old unplug trick makes my 921 receive KUSA and KCNC without touching my antenna then I wonder?

I dunno, Jack.

Hello everyone,

I've been following this thread for quite awhile but this is my first post.

I have the HR10-250 Tivo receiver and I was wondering if anyone else has been experiencing audio breakups on WB during Smallville. I am running the sound through an optical connection to a surround sound receiver, and in the last two episodes about halfway through the show the dolby digital signal breaks up and I don't get any sound. My signal level is in the 80's so I know that is not the problem.

Thanks,
Kurt

I've seen the same thing on Smallville, but instead of a complete loss of audio, I g..t a v.r. ch..p. .udi. t.a.k

I ended up turning closed captions on to follow the dialog. I tend to think this problem was in the signal, and not anything related to the TiVo -- I've only seen it on Smallville, and I watch quite a bit of (HD)TV.

KWGN's problem might be that they just started sending 5.1 DD. Don Rooney emailed me last week and said they were still working out some bugs with that. I'm sure they will get it fixed pretty quick.

How soon we all forget the all the problems we've had in the last few years with those OTHER stations learning as they go. ;)

Just noticed that KWGN is no longer broadcasting in 'Stretch-o-Vision'.

Hadn't been watching much on the WB lately.

Much improved!

Glad to see (hear) they're working on audio upgrades as well.

Most likely the preamp was getting overloaded - possibly from a strong signal on Lookout. Overloaded preamps don't work too well.

A long time ago, I tried using a CM 7777 preamp to help my signal. Same thing happened to me. It was getting overloaded by strong UHF from Lookout (most likely the hugely powerful analog Fox 31). It didn't help any channels and made everything worse. I think preamps are good if you are a long way from stations that have similar power output.

Anyway, after that and many hours on the roof finding the very best (and only) spot for KMGH, I quit tweaking. I haven't done anything to the antenna in two years now. But... my new HD Tivo is slightly better than my old RCA DTC-100 on KMGH.

Ah, sweet window box, very nice. Now if KDVR did the same, and stopped broadcasting in that weird format (14:9?) that they're doing. I'd be happy.

Sent it back to Stark Electronics. Full refund. They are a great company.

The pre-amp discussion is interestingly timely as yesterday I was re-baselining my OTA set-up with and w/o my RS 15-1108 pre-amp. With the pre-amp turned up to max, I did discover overload problems on my analog reception. W/o the pre-amp, the only DTV channel I could lock was 34 (2-01) and I normally get all the locals except you know who.

I tried the OTA DTV channels with the pre-amp on minimum gain. I locked them all, but at considerably lower meter strength. I added a tunable attenuator, which I leave at minimum (essentially zero) attenuation for my DTV channels and half to maximum attenuation for my OTA analog channels.

I'm near 68th and Simms in Arvada with a Winegard PR-8800 in the attic (WAF precludes outdoor antennas) using a Dish 811 receiver. While signal overload is obvious on analog broadcasts and even my FM radio feed from the antenna, I haven't seen any evidence that signal overload can occur w/ a pre-amp on a DTV channel.

However, I'll qualify that by again noting that my DTV signals are almost nil w/o the pre-amp. I think if one has a decent signal w/o a pre-amp, a pre-amp my create a problem. However, if you are adding a pre-amp to improve an already locked signal, I strongly suggest the tunable attenuator. RS has a decent one cheap.

(WAF precludes outdoor antennas)CEB, Jewelery always helps in that area! ;)

-------------------------------------

OT: Anybody interested in getting an ISF calibration by one of the best-of-the-best calibrators in the world? I was thinking of hosting an ISF tour with Michael TLV. He's not just a calibrator, but has invented some of the techniques used by calibrators. You can read about him...

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/isf/isf_calibrators.html

If anybody's interested, please let me know at: ernie.santella@comcast.net
I'm sure it wouldn't be until spring sometime before we could organize the tour.

Originally posted by dr_mal
I've seen the same thing on Smallville, but instead of a complete loss of audio, I g..t a v.r. ch..p. .udi. t.a.k

I ended up turning closed captions on to follow the dialog. I tend to think this problem was in the signal, and not anything related to the TiVo -- I've only seen it on Smallville, and I watch quite a bit of (HD)TV. Nope, Gilmore Girls has had this exact same problem the last two weeks in a row, and no captions on the HD broadcast to even be able to read what's going on... :mad:

I meant to come back here and update that -- I watched Gilmore Girls yesterday and it had the same problem. I was able to turn on captions, though, to see what I missed. It only lasted for a couple of minutes on Gilmore Girls, though.

So let me amend my statement to say that I've only seen the problem on WB shows.

We used to have an engineer from KWGN post here -- I wonder if he's still lurking and can let us know what's going on?

I've chatted with Don Rooney at KWGN at bit. I will email him and see if he can comment.

Hot News!!!
Did you guys hear about the big Dish Network win in Congress today!

EchoStar applauds the members of Congress for their work in passing the Satellite Home Viewer Extension and Reauthorization Act of 2004 that will benefit consumers. Over the next several years, the bill will allow satellite TV carriers to begin offering distant high definition TV network channels to many consumers if the local broadcasters lapse on their promises to Congress to begin broadcasting full-power HDTV to their viewers.

Originally posted by santellavision
I've chatted with Don Rooney at KWGN at bit. I will email him and see if he can comment.
During tonight's WB HD broadcasts, this same problem didn't occur, but you can hear what sounds like occasional sample drops occurring. The sound didn't ever fully drop out but frankly it sounded like it just wanted to go into the same "one syllable every ½ second" mode again...

Originally posted by kucharsk
During tonight's WB HD broadcasts, this same problem didn't occur, but you can hear what sounds like occasional sample drops occurring. The sound didn't ever fully drop out but frankly it sounded like it just wanted to go into the same "one syllable every ½ second" mode again...

I emailed Don Rooney at KWGN about this problem and we went back and forth a bit last week. He said they're broadcasting 5.1 audio now, and for some inexplicable reason about 20-30 mins into the broadcasts the audio drops out and they have to switch to a different feed. They're working with vendors and the network to work it out.

Rob.

The one syllable drop out was caused by a setting in our HDCAM tape deck that we use for recording and backup playback of our HD recorded material we receive from the WB network.

The problem with the audio loss after approximately 20 minutes into prime time HD, has been attributed to another device we use for recording and playback of HD material.

Since WB network began sending 5.1 Dolby audio we have found many quirks existing within several pieces of equipment we use for recording and playback. Until now, these systems were largely untested in the recording/playback process of AC-3 audio and we are just now finding solutions to these issues.

We hope to have all the issues with 5.1 audio worked out very soon.

The loss of captioning may be an issue with WB network not including captioing for certain shows that are sent down in HD. We will investigate the problem.


Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

Dave:

Thanks. And THANKS for the normal unstretched 4:3 screen on SD material. What an improvement!