Dave,
I'm 'out in the sticks', can you please tell me(us) at what percent of your total power that you are currently broadcasting, and a timeframe for adding more power to the signal?
I am approximately 53 miles from Lookout, and I have received your signal during favorable atmospheric conditions, however that occurs 'once in a blue moon'.

Thanks,
....jc

JC,

I don't think it will be anytime soon. They out-smarted sCARE and got the transmitter on their old Back-Up tower by a loop-hole in the JeffCo regs. To use their main tower, they would have to go through the whole JeffCo application nightmare. And as we all know, the newly elected commissioners have publicly stated that they are anti-tower.

My guess is KWGN will have to wait until they discontinue analog on the big tower and just swap out transmitters in the building. As even changing out the antenna on top would require a JeffCo application/hearing. But... even changing out the transmitter in the building is controversial. As sCARE says you can't do that without hearings, the stations say otherwise.

So, it will most likely be around 2010! If we get lucky, all the sCARE folks will have retired to Florida by then. And new, smarter residents with brains will be living here.

Ernie,
Thanks for the confidence booster! :( I don't need WB as bad as I need Fox. I could try plan 'B', but I don't have much confidence in that either. I've got a 'sidearm' antenna that I used to use to pick up CBS in the Springs. But, I don't use it anymore because D* now provides me local channels from C/S. I could get a new Join-Tenna for UHF and give it a try, but since NTSC signal from Fox 21 is not really viewable, I have my doubts that the digital signal will be any better.
And, of course, I was denied the national feeds from Fox, but they gave me NBC. Yup, lots-o-football on NBC.:mad:

JC,

Sorry to bum you... But did you read the great news from Dish above. Congress has approved letting Sat providers (Dish & Directv) offer out-of-market HDTV to markets that do not have full-power stations operating (i.e. us!) They didn't mention when, but Dish is pretty good about being aggressive.

Dave Martinez, I too have to say THANK YOU!!!!!!! For the unstretched 4:3 progams. I will be watching allot more of KWGN now.:)

Originally posted by santellavision
Sorry to bum you... But did you read the great news from Dish above. Congress has approved letting Sat providers (Dish & Directv) offer out-of-market HDTV to markets that do not have full-power stations operating (i.e. us!) They didn't mention when, but Dish is pretty good about being aggressive.
Yea, Ernie, I hope that happens! On the down side, that's another $2 a month to D*.:rolleyes: I'd rather get the signals for FREE! BTW, what channels is D* using for their Fox HD broadcasts?

I went to the Antennas Direct website. Interesting HD stats on that puppy. Including this:
Did you know? Every TV station in the US now has two transmitters and two separate frequencies. One for their existing analog broadcasts, and a second for their new digital broadcasts. 92% of the digital stations are on the UHF band.
This doesn't sound right!
....jc

The only part that doesn't sound right is that they have two transmitters. Yes, all stations have been assigned two frequencies. But, not all stations have bought the equipment and are using them yet. And it sounds correct that 92% of the digital stations are on UHF. There are few markets that have digital stations on channels 2-12, but most are higher.

Ummm.... A bit off topic, but...

When did D* turn on Altitude?

I know, no hockey, so who cares... (Doc :) )

Just found out it was on, and was surprised.

I had heard, around Halloween, that there was to be an announcement of an aggreement, but never heard anything after that. Maybe I just wasn't listening.

Oh well. Resume party.

Ernie,
Is the phrase "full power DTV" defined anywhere in the new legislation? Can our locals still rely on the same old excuses and fabrications of signal strength? Given the low power that even the best stations are broadcasting, the Denver metro area should be able to receive ALL stations from the satellites under these new rules.

H2O,
Altitude debuted on D* November 5.

Thanks Dave for the WB update. FYI - I've been able to turn on the captions every time Gilmore Girls or Smallville has had the audio issue. As long as you're aware of it and working on a fix, I'm happy :) We've been through this with enough stations by now, we know you'll be able to resolve it.

[beaten to the punch by Iwanthd] As to Altitude - I don't know exactly when D* turned it on, but when I wanted to check the score of the Grey Cup game yesterday, it was there. Kinda figured they'd get on D* before the NHL resumed. ;)

Thanks Iwanthd, I figger'd it had been up for a bit.

Doc, what's an NHL? ;)

Originally posted by Iwanthd
Ernie,
Is the phrase "full power DTV" defined anywhere in the new legislation? Can our locals still rely on the same old excuses and fabrications of signal strength? Given the low power that even the best stations are broadcasting, the Denver metro area should be able to receive ALL stations from the satellites under these new rules.

It's my understanding that the FCC has to write the digital "white area" rules first and they can take up to 9 months to do that. I would like to see every residence in Denver Metro to be declared a KMGH white area. However, by then Denver HD LiL will be up on Spaceway 1 if that launch is successful, so it would be moot for D*.

Hearing? Are they capable of scheduling a hearing? Nope. Waiting for the newest batch of comishes.

Don

Originally posted by dr_mal
Thanks Dave for the WB update. FYI - I've been able to turn on the captions every time Gilmore Girls or Smallville has had the audio issue. As long as you're aware of it and working on a fix, I'm happy :) Hmmm... two weeks ago when the Gilmore Girls issue first came up 20 minutes in, turning on digital captions got me nothing...

Originally posted by kucharsk
Hmmm... two weeks ago when the Gilmore Girls issue first came up 20 minutes in, turning on digital captions got me nothing...
Did you try old-fashioned captions (do those even work with DTV?) I just went into my TiVo's menu and turned on both sets of captions. I may not have bothered that particular time with Gilmore Girls, but I distinctly remember this week's GG and Smallville worked, and Smallville worked the week before.

Other than that one time with Gilmore Girls, they've worked for you, correct?

Ernie,
Is the phrase "full power DTV" defined anywhere in the new legislation?I got this directly from Dish.EchoStar applauds the members of Congress for their work in passing the Satellite Home Viewer Extension and Reauthorization Act of 2004 that will benefit consumers. Over the next several years, the bill will allow satellite TV carriers to begin offering distant high definition TV network channels to many consumers if the local broadcasters lapse on their promises to Congress to begin broadcasting full-power HDTV to their viewers.

http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=dish&script=410&layout=-6&item_id=646314

Originally posted by AkaStp
Whereabouts (channel #) on DirectTV is the Altitude channel that is referred to above? I've surfed but can't seem to find it.

AS is 644 and another added sports channel is Comcast SportsNet West at 656.

I saw this on Altitude's website
Catch High-flying Nuggets in Hi-Def
DENVER, November 23 -- Altitude Sports & Entertainment (Altitude) announced today that the network will broadcast up to 40 Denver Nuggets games in High-Definition Television (HDTV), beginning with the Nuggets match-up on Saturday, December 4 (7 PM MT) versus the Miami Heat and Shaquille O’Neal.

The HDTV games will be made available to all Altitude cable and satellite affiliates. The games will be presented in 1080i format with stereo sound. Subscribers will need to check with their service provider to determine availability.

“If you’ve ever had the opportunity to see a game in HDTV, then you know that sports in high-def is the future,” said Matt Hutchings, COO of Altitude. “If you haven’t had the chance, then we’re pleased to give you 40 of them. This is a major commitment by Altitude to continue to service our fans and viewers – as well as our affiliates throughout the region.”

Altitude’s commitment to HDTV represents the first time a Colorado-based regional sports network will present local, professional sports in high definition. Nuggets home games as well as select away games will be part of the high definition telecasts.

“We’re thrilled to be the first RSN in the region to make the foray into HDTV and we look forward to expanding upon this initiative -- certainly Avalanche games and possibly Mammoth games and Rapids contests. Our future goal is to have all of our originally produced live events presented in HDTV,” concluded Hutchings.

I'm impressed. My discussions with Altitude led me to believe it would be somewhere in the year- to year-and-a-half timeline before they'd be doing games in HD. Go Altitude!

(Now if only the NHL and NHLPA would start talking to each other again...)

Go Altitude.
I don't see DirecTv passing this along. Maybe Comcast will. It would be great if they would do OTA for us.

AS is probably using Colorado Studios for production, that's how they're getting into HD early. I wonder if D* will be able to give it to us on the Special HD Events channel.

To add Altitude to your TitanTV list use "ALT" for call letters and 644 for ch.
3 networks appear in the list: ALTNET, ALTAVS, ALTNUG but they all seem to have the same schedule.

To add Comcast Sportsnet West to your TitanTV list use "CSNET" for call letters and 656 for ch.
2 networks appear in the list, choose CSNET (CSNW)

Originally posted by dr_mal
Did you try old-fashioned captions (do those even work with DTV?) I just went into my TiVo's menu and turned on both sets of captions. I may not have bothered that particular time with Gilmore Girls, but I distinctly remember this week's GG and Smallville worked, and Smallville worked the week before.

Other than that one time with Gilmore Girls, they've worked for you, correct?
I don't have any means of seeing "regular" captions, only ATSC ones (turning on captions on my LST-3410a).

I have to admit, I didn't try it this past week since it didn't work the week before, and of course this week was the American Girl Holiday movie.

However, I do know ATSC captions work just fine on C.S.I.:, so...

That's funny - since I know the captions worked last week, I assumed they worked the week before. Since you know they didn't work the week before, you didn't try last week :) Goes to show you what happens when you assume.

That said, I'll go ahead and assume it was the ATSC captions that I saw working. It wouldn't make sense for analog captions to work, since they're embedded into the NTSC picture area.

I wonder if D* would use channels 96 or 97 to pass along Altitudes HD broadcast of the Nuggets games. I've seen NBA games shown as "upcoming" from time to time on those channels. Maybe since AS is not owned by a cable company, D* would be more likely to pass it along on a regional basis like they do for the Dallas Mavericks and other teams. Last night there was the San Antonio v Sacramento listed on 96 but it was "not available in your area".

And theAmerican Girl Holiday Movie had the same audio glitches starting at 20-30 minutes in. My two little girls were ticked off! They hated switching back to analog just to hear -- it's quite a poor picture out in Elizabeth on 2.

Question: Just started visiting this forum 2 days ago. Live in NE Longmont 1/4 mile east of Pace & Mtn View. Have a 55" Sony LCD (55WF655) with built-in ATSC HD tuner and am curious about receiving any OTA Denver HD broadcasts w/second story roof mounted UHF antennae and RF amplifier(?). Also what are these waivers I see mentioned in this forum? Are they somehow related to OTA reception?

Originally posted by Mtnmike
Question: Just started visiting this forum 2 days ago. Live in NE Longmont 1/4 mile east of Pace & Mtn View. Have a 55" Sony LCD (55WF655) with built-in ATSC HD tuner and am curious about receiving any OTA Denver HD broadcasts w/second story roof mounted UHF antennae and RF amplifier(?).
MtnMike,
So what is the question? I would think that U should be able to get at least a few stations with whatever you are using for an antenna. A good roof mounted antenna should only improve your chances.

Also what are these waivers I see mentioned in this forum? Are they somehow related to OTA reception?
Kind of. The waivers are granted/denied by local stations, and they give you(or deny you) the ablility to get local stations via satellite.

So, what can you receive from your location?
....jc

Originally posted by Mtnmike
Question: Just started visiting this forum 2 days ago. Live in NE Longmont 1/4 mile east of Pace & Mtn View. Have a 55" Sony LCD (55WF655) with built-in ATSC HD tuner and am curious about receiving any OTA Denver HD broadcasts w/second story roof mounted UHF antennae and RF amplifier(?). Also what are these waivers I see mentioned in this forum? Are they somehow related to OTA reception? If you have any kind of antenna at all, just hook it up and see what happens - you have a good chance of getting channels 2 and 31 . The latter will get you two HD football games on Sunday, and whet your appetite for more.

The hard channels to receive will be 4, 6, and 9. What is you view like to the south-southeast? - that's the way you will need to aim. Get a good UHF antenna (Channel Master 4228 is my recommendation), mount it as high as you can, and make a straight run of RG6 to the TV. Try without a pre-amp first, as the overload from 2 and 31 often makes things worse with a pre-amp.

Totallyprewired (JC),

The question should have been........Can I expect any worthwile UHF OTA HD reception in this part of Longmont? No line of site to Denver, but to Lookout Mtn. Onlycurrent reference I have is an old analog TV in a 2nd floor bedroom with a cheap VHF/UHF set-top antennae that recieves all Denver Metro VHF and most UHF SD signals reasonably well (Lookout Mtn I auusme) with some snow and shadowing.

I have Direct TV w/local channels SD and will eventually upgrade to HD receiver when more programming becomes available. I assume from your answer the waiver would be applicable if I had a Direct TV HD receiver and local channels in SD then in order to receive them in HD I woud need some kind of waiver from the local station to give DirecTV. Is that correct?

____________________________________________________________

Oxothuk,

The HDTV is in a newly finished below ground level basment. I would be really surprised to have any indoor OTA reception there. So I anticipate mounting an outdoor antennae on the second story roof. My line of sight from that location is unobstructed until you get about 5 miles south of Longmont and then the terrain gradually rises above my elevation. I was hoping a forum member from Longmont might jump in with their experience with reception from east Longmont and equipment set-up if trying is worth any reasonable end result. Any advice is appreciated and welcomed.

Thanks to both for your responses

Mike

Totallyprewired (JC),

The question should have been........Can I expect any worthwile UHF OTA HD reception in this part of Longmont? No line of site to Denver, but to Lookout Mtn. Only current reference I have is an old analog TV in a 2nd floor bedroom with a cheap VHF/UHF set-top antennae that recieves all Denver Metro VHF and most UHF SD signals reasonably well (Lookout Mtn I assume) with some snow and shadowing.

I have Direct TV w/local channels SD and will eventually upgrade to HD receiver when more programming becomes available. I assume from your answer the waiver would be applicable if I had a Direct TV HD receiver and local channels in SD; then in order to receive them in HD I woud need some kind of waiver from the local station to give DirecTV. Is that correct?

____________________________________________________________

Oxothuk,

The HDTV is in a newly finished below ground level basment. I would be really surprised to have any indoor OTA reception there. So I anticipate mounting an outdoor antennae on the second story roof. My line of sight from that location is unobstructed until you get about 5 miles south of Longmont and then the terrain gradually rises above my elevation. I was hoping a forum member from Longmont might jump in with their experience with reception from east Longmont and their suggested equipment set-up if trying is worth any reasonable end result. Any advice is appreciated and welcomed.

Thanks to both for your responses

Mike

Hi Mike, and welcome.

I'm a bit closer to Skyline HS, probably less than a mile from you. As you noted, Lookout is not a problem, but the ridge near Hwy 52 puts us in a shadow for the downtown stations on Republic Plaza. Channel 9-1 is iffy here, but the signal is overloaded for me by something local - I know that wireless phones being used in the neighborhood will kill channel 9-1 for me, and I believe a local paging system is also knocking it out regularly. The size of the antenna isn't too much of a factor when other weak spurious signals compete on the same frequency, as a better antenna brings in both signals better if both sources are from the same direction, thereby the signal to noise ratio remains the same and nothing is gained as far as a reliable signal goes. If the interfering signal is not directly to your south, then a larger antenna's greater directional characteristics will help. Posters on the west side of Longmont and one poster near Hwy 119 gets the Channels 4-1, 6-1, and 9-1 (as well as 31-1, 12-x, and 2-1) well, so the problem I have may be local enough that it won't bother your reception. I've given up on the RP stations, but occasionally can watch 9-1. Anything from the mountains is a breeze here.

I'm mostly in waiting mode for DirecTV HD LIL which will is claimed to be possible next summer, but having the capacity to deliver and actually delivering may be many more moons past next summer - but it is the best bet for NBC, ABC, CBS, and PBS-HD for us (12-x is not HD). We do get a good CBS from Cheyenne, WY (channel 30), but sometimes CSI switches to SD mid way, football has had a replay of the 2nd qtr instead of the 3rd, and other shows are just in SD when HD is available - so not reliable as far as HD goes, even though the signal is good here.

Waivers from that CBS station are common to give us CBS-HD West from D* (you may have to contact them directly), but KUSA for NBC-HD is a thumbs down.

Edit: as an additional reference point, a house a block closer to your location from me has an 8-bay bowtie on his 2-story, and is also unable to get 4-1 or 6-1, but does get a more reliable signal on 9-1.

Originally posted by Mtnmike
Can I expect any worthwile UHF OTA HD reception in this part of Longmont?
I'm sure that someone near your location can help, I can't, I'm way down South.

I assume from your answer the waiver would be applicable if I had a Direct TV HD receiver and local channels in SD then in order to receive them in HD I woud need some kind of waiver from the local station to give DirecTV. Is that correct?
D* will handle trying to get the waiver for you. However, D* currently doesn't have a method of distinguishing between SD & HD reception, it's all SD based. So, in my case, and it looks like yours, it'll depend on whether your local affiliate will let you have the national feeds.
....jc

Mark,

Actually I had previously sent you a PM on this. So thanks for the info.. The PM is about your set-up (antennae etc)

JC Thanks

Just our luck, the Big 12 championship game next week is going to be in HD on ..... ABC.

Grrrrr....

Why aren't we getting HD (Channel 9) for the Broncos game? Any ideas?

Might that be due to ESPN and ABC being in cahoots with one another?

No giving the competition anything of value, eh?

Originally posted by rmeredith
Why aren't we getting HD (Channel 9) for the Broncos game? Any ideas? Samething happened last time the Broncos played on Sunday night. I had my hopes up when Titan listed the game as HD, but I guess I'm not surprised.

Figures. Denver's OTA HD continues to impress...

Wow! I can't believe we lost! Or can I? Hahaha.

What defense???? Geeesh!

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
Hi Mike, and welcome.

I'm a bit closer to Skyline HS, probably less than a mile from you. As you noted, Lookout is not a problem, but the ridge near Hwy 52 puts us in a shadow for the downtown stations on Republic Plaza. Channel 9-1 is iffy here, but the signal is overloaded for me by something local - I know that wireless phones being used in the neighborhood will kill channel 9-1 for me, and I believe a local paging system is also knocking it out regularly. The size of the antenna isn't too much of a factor when other weak spurious signals compete on the same frequency, as a better antenna brings in both signals better if both sources are from the same direction, thereby the signal to noise ratio remains the same and nothing is gained as far as a reliable signal goes. If the interfering signal is not directly to your south, then a larger antenna's greater directional characteristics will help. Posters on the west side of Longmont and one poster near Hwy 119 gets the Channels 4-1, 6-1, and 9-1 (as well as 31-1, 12-x, and 2-1) well, so the problem I have may be local enough that it won't bother your reception. I've given up on the RP stations, but occasionally can watch 9-1. Anything from the mountains is a breeze here.

I'm mostly in waiting mode for DirecTV HD LIL which will is claimed to be possible next summer, but having the capacity to deliver and actually delivering may be many more moons past next summer - but it is the best bet for NBC, ABC, CBS, and PBS-HD for us (12-x is not HD). We do get a good CBS from Cheyenne, WY (channel 30), but sometimes CSI switches to SD mid way, football has had a replay of the 2nd qtr instead of the 3rd, and other shows are just in SD when HD is available - so not reliable as far as HD goes, even though the signal is good here.

Waivers from that CBS station are common to give us CBS-HD West from D* (you may have to contact them directly), but KUSA for NBC-HD is a thumbs down.

Edit: as an additional reference point, a house a block closer to your location from me has an 8-bay bowtie on his 2-story, and is also unable to get 4-1 or 6-1, but does get a more reliable signal on 9-1.

Interesting. Isn't Skyline HS about the highest point in Longmont whereas Highway 119 must be 45 feet lower in elevation than Skyline? The west side of Longmont fades down into the valley as well staring right up at Niwot ridge.

Wait, isn't there a solution? Build a full power tower on Lookout? What a concept.

Originally posted by donyoop
Interesting. Isn't Skyline HS about the highest point in Longmont whereas Highway 119 must be 45 feet lower in elevation than Skyline? The west side of Longmont fades down into the valley as well staring right up at Niwot ridge.

Wait, isn't there a solution? Build a full power tower on Lookout? What a concept.

It is a high point, but being on the back side of a high point isn't too good (actually, there's a LOT more development on the back (north-facing) side - mostly school grounds are on the south side). Signals are already weaked by being shadowed by the ridge mentioned, and being somewhat further north and having our local hill to deal with makes NE Longmont completely different than SE or W Longmont. Lookout would be a GREAT solution! :)

one poster near Hwy 119 gets the Channels 4-1, 6-1, and 9-1 (as well as 31-1, 12-x, and 2-1)


I think this is reference to myself and is accurate with the exception of 4-1 being very erratic and I also receive 53. Specifically I am about 3 mi. west of I25 just north of 119. My setup is a CM 4228 on a 20ft mast outside aimed toward downtown (Denver, that is) with one union in my RG6 run (total run is 70ft) to an E* 811. I have tried preamps (CM7777 and RS 10dB in-line unit) but had severe multi-path and lost everything except 31-1. There is a slight rise just to the south of me which I'm sure is affecting my reception. Interesting note is that when my antenna was inside at "15" ft through one wall I was getting 4-1 much better, but could not get any of the Republic stations or 53 without a cheap 10dB signal amp.

Hope this helps.

Interesting note is that when my antenna was inside at "15" ft through one wall I was getting 4-1 much better, but could not get any of the Republic stations or 53 without a cheap 10dB signal amp.As many of us have learned/experienced, receiving OTA DTV is a game of inches. Move your antenna a little right, 2" higher, sometimes not even in the direction of the the Republic like me.

I have to aim toward the tech center from Genessee! And I have zero line of sight with two hills between my antenna and Republic, and I can get 4,6,9. But as absurd, I'm only a few miles from Lookout, and cannot get 2 at all!

So, don't lose hope. Try anything and everything before giving up.

Originally posted by whtevr77
...(the reception of) 4-1 being very erratic...


Opps - I misspoke. Sorry about that. Thanks for the clarification!

Originally posted by santellavision
As many of us have learned/experienced, receiving OTA DTV is a game of inches. Move your antenna a little right, 2" higher, sometimes not even in the direction of the the Republic like me.



The next thing I'm going to try (as suggested by ByH2O) is tilting the antenna forward and back and I could extend it another two feet or so.

With the weather lately it looks like spring until I get the chance to play around with it though. At least the SB is on Fox this year followed by Daytona. And with getting CBS-HD from E* I'm pretty well covered but still like to tinker with the setup. This has been a fun (and frustrating at times) hobby....

Well I just got my new (for me) antenna the largest UHF CM makes. I was able to get 9-1 now. It was on the verge of going in and out but the snow on the ground has improved my reception so I can get it cleanly now.

I live about 2 miles south of Loveland. I don't get 4-1 and of course no 7-1 glad I have Directv for CBS and except for MNF I don't care about ABC.

The part I don't get about waivers is I won't watch a network feed during primetime unless it is now HD. Why the local stations allow HD feeds from satellite is beyond me. Basically I am not watching them now except for local news.

colofan,

Are you able to get KWGN-HD (CBS) out of Cheyenne (channel 30 or 5-1)?? They are broadcasting in close to full power and do a nice job with their HD. So they should be a good option for you that you can't get 4-1.

Mike,

I tried that channel earlier but the sound was screwed up and I one channel only? I will try again tonight to see if the feed is different now. Like I said earlier the cbs feed is a bonus since I get CBS HD from LA on direct tv.

AkaStp, I have never heard of any stores taking TV's back in trade. And selling in the newspaper is a tough sell too. Honestly, you most likely won't get much. My suggestion is to advertise it locally. Like at yours or your wife's workplace. Neighbors, relatives etc. I tried to sell my Mits HD RPTV and couldn't even get one serious bite in the paper. I ended up giving it to my father. Better than selling it for $500.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Selling it locally would seem to be the best approach to avoid shipping, etc. so that would seem to preclude ebay.
Not really. You could specify that the buyer must pick it up. No shipping. It doesn't hurt to try! I found some items that I wanted, but couldn't get there, but who knows!

Ernie is prolly right, tough to sell used(Oh sorry, 'Previously Owned') equipment. Maybe a 'Previously Owned' category could be added to this website?

....jc

Originally posted by AkaStp
Selling it locally would seem to be the best approach to avoid shipping, etc. so that would seem to preclude ebay. ....... Also, how would I determine an appropriate selling price? Actually, there are quite a few Samsung DLPs for sale on eBay. Some are identified as local auctions, others will ship for around $200. And I saw at least one HLM507W that had been bid up to $1400 already.

AkaStp,

Advertise in the Boulder, Longmont & Lousiville papers. For the right price it should sell. When you settle on a new TV you might want to give the Sony 55WF655 or 55XS955 a good look both are sweet and the sales people at CC will DEAL at least 10% below what the price on the floor is. Good luck

Channel 2 still has the same #$@! problem with the audio going out 30 minutes into programs, and it's really, really annoying.

BTW, no captions at all during Gilmore Girls, before or after the audio issues, on the HD feed or the SD feed they switched to when they discovered the audio went out (again)...

SORRY FOR CHANGING THE SUBJECT, BUT I AM NEW TO THIS FORUM AND I'M NOT TOO SAAVY WITH INTERNET AND SUCH, SO PLEASE EXCUSE ME IF I ASK STUPID QUESTIONS. I JUST READ IN MY LAST LISTEN-UP CATALOGUE THAT DENVER PLANS TO GO TO FULL POWER IN 2005. THE LAST I HAD HEARD THE LOOKOUT MTN ANTENNA WAS BACK IN JEFFCO COURT LIMBO THANKS TO 'SCARE'. HAS THE LCG ANTENNA FINALLY BEEN APPROVED? HAS CONSTRUCTION STARTED? IF SO WHEN SHOULD IT BE UP AND RUNNING? IF I'M ASKING ?S THAT HAVE BEEN ANSWERED ALREADY PLEASE DIRECT ME TO THE CORRECT THREAD.

Welcome!

First rule of internet etiquette (netiquette) -- DON'T SHOUT! It's just easier to read messages that use proper case.

As to when Denver goes full power? That's anyone's guess. The tower has in fact been approved (actually, the zoning change that would allow a new tower to be built) by the county commissioners. However, the lawsuit filed by the city of Golden and sCARE has blocked the LCG from starting construction. It's still possible that we'll see full power in 2005, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Wecome to the forum, this is the one where the info is on the tower status. BTW, please turn off the caps lock, even though my ears don't work too well anymore...

As to the current status, it is still in limbo - most recent discussions are on page 459. The final outcome is anyone's guess, but it's a safe bet that it won't be anytime soon.

Sorry for the yelling. My typing skills are rudimentary at best. Thanks for the updates and the pg. 459 suggestion, although the news wasn't nearly as uplifting as the ListenUp catalog had led me to believe. How come Fox-32 and ch2-34 can broadcast digital signals from lookout mtn and the others can't, or don't? Also since the sales of hdtv's is,I assume, dependent on the quality and quantity of hi-def programming available why don't ListenUp, Best Buy, SoundTrack, etc. get involved in pushing for the Lookout Mtn antenna?
Has a new hearing been set up in Jeffco and is it open to the public?:confused:

I just heard a radio ad that said that only with comcast cable would we be able to see the Nuggets in HD. Does that mean that they have an exclusive deal? I didn't hear anything about Altitude's HD - but then again without the Avs it isn't as important to me.

tngjsv - welcome to our world. We've been asking those very questions for at least the last 5 years (well 3 for me).

31 can broadcast from Lookout because their tower is zoned differently than the rest. 2 can broadcast because of a loophole in the zoning laws that let them install on their shorter secondary tower.

The others can't because of the zoning. No new hearings set because it's currently in the hands of the judge to lift the injunction. Which of course won't happen until at least the new commissioners get sworn into office. Then, we'll likely see this thrown back to the new commissioners, who by reports, are very anti-tower.

Mike,
It isn't an exclusive deal with Comcast. Altitude's press release stated that they will "offer it to all cable and satellite providers". I emailed DirecTv about the possibility of them carrying the games on channels 96 or 97 like they do for other regional NBA teams. I received the standard auto-response dreck about how important I am and that they have no plans to carry it and that I should go to the website frequently and buy things. I am comforted to know that "Heather" is looking out for me.

Nice of Heather to take the time to "personally" tell you this information, isn't it??:rolleyes:

Thanks for the info.

Since we're bitchin' today.

'Ya know, there hasn't been one bit of 'real' work on Mt Morrsion. They've had the green light for well over a year. And widening the road doesn't really count. What's up with that?

Good question, Ernie. I just pinged the director of engineering over at KRMA. I'll let you know what I hear.

Speaking of PBS, does anyone know what KBDI is doing with their sub channels? 38-4 and 38-5 are the same thing, it's strange.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Good question, Ernie. I just pinged the director of engineering over at KRMA. I'll let you know what I hear. While you're at it, could you bug him about showing more of the PBS-HD feed? There's a lot of good stuff they cut out in the afternoon hours to meet the FCC simulcast requirement, about a month before the FCC dropped the simulcast requirement.

I agree on PBS HD in the afternoon. When they went from 50% simulcast to 75%, I complained and they said they agreed but couldn't do anything about it. I'll send a note to them about it as well since the requirement is no longer applicable.

Is there any percentage that must be simulcast any more? If not, maybe they could run the national PBS feed around the clock!

More drivel to bury the tower in BS:

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6516883003

OT: New HD Camera

Just wanted to pass this along. This little 'ol camera has created an unbelieveable buzz in the pro ranks. They have two versions. With the slightly better version coming out in Feb. that has some addtitional bells & whistles. (I've got one on order!)

http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=29075

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
More drivel to bury the tower in BS:

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6516883003
Yawn. Same old, same old.

You know, I always kind of equated sCARE and the Antichrist, but this is just too funny (from the last page of the PDF linked above)
Deborah Carney
Attorney for:
Canyon Area Residents for the Environment
Carney Law Office
21789 Cabrini Blvd, Golden, Co. 80401
303-526-9666
deb@carneylaw.net

Unlimited addition of antennas under 1000 watts easily exceeds 1000 watts
...'The Colorado department of health has confirmed statistically significant elevations in brain tumors on Lookout Mountain'
Geez, I had no idea the situation was that serious. I had better go back to school, I simply didn't realize that mountains could get brain tumors, or that they even had brains. Now I'm worried, what about the plants and animal life? Could they have brain tumors too? Oh no, the water that drains off the mountain could be 'tumorous' also. We're all gona die!

If this is the best that 'Deborah' can do, why isn't the tower up?

....jc

Unlimited addition of antennas under 1000 watts easily exceeds 1000 watts
...'The Colorado department of health has confirmed statistically significant elevations in brain tumors on Lookout Mountain'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well that explains sCARE. (They all have brain tumors) I knew there was a reason those people were acting that way.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Geez, I had no idea the situation was that serious. I had better go back to school, I simply didn't realize that mountains could get brain tumors, or that they even had brains. Now I'm worried...

I thought the same thing when I read that! Too funny.

I thought they were just pointing out that the elevation of Lookout mountain is statistically significant when compared to the rest of the Denver metro area. Therefore, there are statistically significant elevations in brain tumors found on the mountain.

Originally posted by santellavision
OT: New HD Camera

Just wanted to pass this along. This little 'ol camera has created an unbelieveable buzz in the pro ranks. They have two versions. With the slightly better version coming out in Feb. that has some addtitional bells & whistles. (I've got one on order!)

http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=29075

I wonder how it compares with JVC's HD Cam?

I wonder how it compares with JVC's HD Cam?No comparison. This is 1080i, has 3 Native 16:9 CCD chips instead of the JVC's one chip, Advanced signal processing (Gamma, Color adjustments etc), Time-code, Smooth rampable zoom/focus, Records on professional HDV & DVCam formats. Pro XLR audio inputs. It's amazing for the money. And the FX1 version is about $3500. The Z1 is about $5K.

I shoot HD right now with a $100K Panasonic Varicam. (Rented) From what I've read of beta testers, this looks almost as good and is about $95,000 cheaper. Unbelievable.

Originally posted by AkaStp
It would seem that they are not yet totally brain dead as they appear to still have the ability to do simple math. ;)


Yep, that's what struck me as funny. Sure, a 1000 lb weight and another 1000 lb weight would be 2000 lbs, but simple math does not describe RF wave characteristics. A good example of adding out-of-phase waves (i.e. waves of different frequencies if they were sinusoidal) would be to watch the VU meters when playing Vivaldi's "The Four Seasons". The VU meter's readings don't increase with the number of instruments playing. I'm sure the FCC is smarter than that.

Edit - The '666' got me laughing too.

Carney Law Office
21789 Cabrini Blvd, Golden, Co. 80401
303-526-9666David,
I forgot to mention, this had me laughing all night!
I knew she was evil... now we have proof!

I've been to numerous Soundtracks, Best Buy's, and Circuit City stores in the metro area. None of them seem to have HDTV demonstrated properly. I would especially like to see one of the newer DLP sets with the HD2+ chip being driven by a clean digital source with a DVI or HDMI interface.

When I ask the salesmen if this TV is being driven by a digital source via a digital transmission, they say 'yes'. When I look around the back of the set, I see Composite, S-video, or maybe component. Never have I seen one of these $4000.00 sets being set up correctly with a DVI or HDMI connection.

Is there a store that can demonstrate HDTV properly? --Greg--

:(

I think if you get a component cable set-up, you're doing OK. Unless there's a dedicated source pretty close to the set, I can't imagine any of these retailers wiring up that much HDMI or DVI cable. Have you gone to Listen Up?

Definitely Listen Up for demo purposes!

Greg,

It would be very difficult to demo displays with DVI or HDMI. That requires long cable runs and cannot be split (due to HDCP). What type of display are you considering? An HD2+ PJ or RPTV? Maybe one of us on the forum might have something close to demo for you.

I don't know if this company has anything setup properly for what your looking for, but The Big Picture has some nice demo displays.

Three major college football games on this evening. All in HD. Guess which one I want to watch, but have to settle for SD via E*. KMGH sours another football weekend!

Tonight was the first telecast from Altitude in HD, did anybody get to see it. How did it look, and what service providers had it? I am hoping Directv gets it but pretty sure that won't happen.

Originally posted by Sportfantic
Tonight was the first telecast from Altitude in HD, did anybody get to see it. How did it look, and what service providers had it? I am hoping Directv gets it but pretty sure that won't happen.


Are the Nuggets games in HiDef from Altitude Sports only being broadcast on Comcast, or are you able to receive them via an over-the-air antenna as well?

Only on Comcast for now. I watched some of the Nuggets game tonight and it looked really good.

Originally posted by kucharsk
Channel 2 still has the same #$@! problem with the audio going out 30 minutes into programs, and it's really, really annoying.

BTW, no captions at all during Gilmore Girls, before or after the audio issues, on the HD feed or the SD feed they switched to when they discovered the audio went out (again)...
(finally got around to watching Gilmore Girls tonight)

The lack of captions has to be something with your STB. I had no problem viewing the captions on Gilmore Girls this week, both during the HD garbled-audio feed and the SD proper-audio feed.

The messed up audio partway through a show is getting old -- Dave M, are you still out there?

Originally posted by dr_mal
(finally got around to watching Gilmore Girls tonight)

The lack of captions has to be something with your STB. I had no problem viewing the captions on Gilmore Girls this week, both during the HD garbled-audio feed and the SD proper-audio feed.

Very strange, as captions work just fine on every other HD program, it's just the WB programming that seems to have issues... (e.g. captions work fine on CSI:, The Tonight Show, etc.)

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
Yep, that's what struck me as funny. Sure, a 1000 lb weight and another 1000 lb weight would be 2000 lbs, but simple math does not describe RF wave characteristics. A good example of adding out-of-phase waves (i.e. waves of different frequencies if they were sinusoidal) would be to watch the VU meters when playing Vivaldi's "The Four Seasons". The VU meter's readings don't increase with the number of instruments playing. I'm sure the FCC is smarter than that.

The most frightening thing about sCARE is that I'm sure each and every person living on Lookout gets more RF exposure from their cell phones, cordless phones, wireless Internet hubs, fluorescent lights, etc. than they do or would from the towers.

Just remember to boycott anything having anything to do with Lannie Garrett from now on...

I usually try to call them the Broncos, but the way they've been playing lately, it's back to the Donkies.

KCNC is flakey today, and that happens about 1/2 the time out here. So, I turn to the usually reliable KGWN in Cheyenne. Well, they are having bigtime technical problems, broadcasting in SD, with only a little sound from the left speaker. Not worth watching. So, I switch to D* local channel KKTV. They aren't doing so well either. Center channel sound only. On well, SD on the big screen never looks that good anyway. So, I'm back in my office watching a 14" SD picture. Hopefully, ESPN won't die tonight, sigh. :(

I have a question for sCARE.

Is lookout mountain a "magic" place?

I seems to me that if RF is such a health hazard, wouldn't there be even bigger problems in places like New York and Chicago (or even downtown Denver for that matter) where their broadcast towers have been and continue to be on top of large, occupied building in major metropolitan areas. People in those cities should be dropping like flies after being exposed to such levels of RF for the last 60 or so years.

Re: WB Dolby Transmissions

See This Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=476910) , right on our very own AVS forum.

Interesting.

Sheds a little light on the ongoing audio woes currently being experienced on the WB.

Just thought I'd throw in 2¢. Not that it's worth much nowadays.

Thought that I would throw something in, I have always been able to get in basically everything we can in Denver for OTA ( even KMGH ) and was extremely disappointed that with the HD TIVO I lost the ability to reliably get their ( ABC ) weak signal. I theorized it was their ( HDTIVO ) internal splitter that was causing the signal to go below threshold.

Anyway, with some re-wiring for a new bedroom TV, I added a splitter to the antenna feed and then used a diplexer to avoid running extra cables to the bedroom and the second diplexer to split the feed back into antenna and sat feeds for the Tivo. Amazingly enough, KMGH now is rock solid and stable on both tuners with readings of 78. Previously with only a direct cable run to the tuner, it swung wildly from 58 to 20 and could never lock. The cable runs are the same length ( within a foot ), so I don't think that did anything to help the signal level.


Who knew?

Jeff

Originally posted by jeffden
Anyway, with some re-wiring for a new bedroom TV, I added a splitter to the antenna feed and then used a diplexer to avoid running extra cables to the bedroom and the second diplexer to split the feed back into antenna and sat feeds for the Tivo. Amazingly enough, KMGH now is rock solid and stable on both tuners with readings of 78. Previously with only a direct cable run to the tuner, it swung wildly from 58 to 20 and could never lock. The cable runs are the same length ( within a foot ), so I don't think that did anything to help the signal level.
Geez, and there are people that doubted, when I said that this(RF - Antennas in general) is a 'Black Art'...

....jc

I seems to me that if RF is such a health hazard, wouldn't there be even bigger problems in places like New York and Chicago (or even downtown Denver for that matter) where their broadcast towers have been and continue to be on top of large, occupied building in major metropolitan areas.The tired rhetoric is that our landscape is different. People live at the same altitude (including myself - I live at 7700') as the antennas at the top of the towers. The land rises up to the west. So, Lookout Mt. residents are in the 'direct beam' of the older, omni-directional antennas. People in NY or any other city are well below the 'beam' and thus safer. I believe Denver may be the only place in the US where this situation exists.

Don't get me started... The stations have all stated, they would install directional antennas on the new LCGII tower. Thus, focusing the signal AWAY from people, and eliminating that issue completely. But, those morons don't give a sh!t. Their only desire is for ALL towers to go away or moved to another county. Including Squaw Mt., where as far as they're concerned, the towers can radiate all the familes and little children who live there. (That's fine with them - nice caring values huh?) Bottom line, remove all the towers on Lookout, and guess what happens... all of their property values skyrocket.

It's never been about safety. If it was, and you were truly worried about your family and their heath, wouldn't you move your children away from harms way???? Don't let them fool you for one NY minute, it's always been about the M-O-N-E-Y!!!!

Originally posted by santellavision
Bottom line, remove all the towers on Lookout, and guess what happens... all of their property values skyrocket. Are property values near Lookout currently depressed to any significant degree by the presence of the towers? I guess I'm skeptical.

No, property values are at an all-time high now in my neighborhood. And the theories they spew about how they can't move because they can't sell their homes is more BS. I watch my 'hood and things are moving and selling at record prices. RE/MAX is one of my clients and I ask all the time about home values, movement etc.

And due to the stigma that they've help attach to the towers and this fictitious danger, they've brought more harm than good to it. But, If the towers were to all magically go away, our homes would increase in value tremendously!

Originally posted by oxothuk
Are property values near Lookout currently depressed to any significant degree by the presence of the towers? I guess I'm skeptical. Depressed? No, not really. But if you've ever driven around up there you'll see the landscape littered with antennas and guy wires. It's not exactly pretty to look at. But for the most part they've been there for years so any changes in property values have been relative to the existing antenna farm. Now what happens if you take away most, if not all, of those antennas? What happens to property values if a nearby airport is shutdown or moved? What happens to property values if a nearby trash dump is closed? Property values increase that's what happens. And that's what SCARE wants....I just can't help but wonder how many of those residents who are "concerned about their health" would sell their homes and move away if the antennas were taken down and their property values escalated. This has always been about M-O-N-E-Y as Ernie stated. The crap SCARE spews out is just a ruse to confuse and mask their real motives. I also think there are a select few individuals who are on some sort of power/ego trip. Litigating the towers off of Lookout would probably look on a resume or two.

One man's ugly is another man's neat. :D

Personally, aside from the problems that being too close to the towers would introduce for reception, I'd love to both live on Lookout and be that close to the towers. I think the towers, the guide wires, the transmission shacks, etc. are just way cool myself...

Does anyone more trained in these things know why towers couldn't be built at Rocky Flats? It seems far enough out that it wouldn't be shadowed by the mountains, but it might be too close to the NIST quiet areas (and, to be blunt, Boulder, which would never allow it to happen...)

New article on the City & Mtn Views website. Nothing groundbreaking (pun intended).

http://www.colorado-citymtnviews.com/AT-Update120504.php4

Just as an update...

I tried to turn on the HD captions on Charmed last night, and I noted that 2's HD channel acts differently than any others.

For example, if I go to 4-1 or 9-1, (or 2-0, for that matter), when I hit the "CC" button on my LG LST-3410a, I get a choice of CC1, CC2, CC3, CC4 or Text 1 or Text 2; when I do it on 2-1 I just see "English."

I suppose it could be a bug in my STB, but I'm more inclined to think it's some type of flag in the ATSC signal that the LG is paying attention to and other STBs ignore, or vice-versa...

I've got the same thing here with my Sammy SIR-T100.

Every time I go to 2, my box says "Updating channel map…" and then "English" pops up. None of the other channels do that. They’re doing something weird with their signal, that's for sure.

Originally posted by santellavision
New article on the City & Mtn Views website. Nothing groundbreaking (pun intended).

http://www.colorado-citymtnviews.com/AT-Update120504.php4
I really should just let it go, but I can't.

Here we go:
The massive Lake Cedar Group Supertower,
Objection - inflammatory! The "massive" "super"tower is actually shorter than the existing channel 4 tower, and will result in the removal of other towers leaving a more pleasing backdrop than what's there now. It's hardly a huge new obstruction to the mountain view.

Of $40 million spent in Colorado on recent political advertising, Channels 4, 7, 9, and 20 (Lake Cedar Group) gained $34 million, a 60% increase from the 2002 election. The huge profit could buy...
Um, if they weren't running political ads, they'd be running other ads. I'd be curious how much the stations earned above and beyond what they would've charged for running the ads they run all year long, but I doubt it was $34 million more than they'd normally get. Nice to know a "reporter" from the mountains understands the broadcast industry and is in a position to dictate to the stations how to spend their money.

road up the mountain that fire apparatus cannot negotiate
Not true. The guy in charge of the fire protection district said they could get up there. Under oath. On the record.

One long term, 14-year firefighter, 30-year engineer who testified against approval of the road was terminated by the fire district board
You know, if I testified at a legal hearing, purporting to represent my company without their knowledge or approval, I'd get fired too. Good riddance.

I can understand how some people on Lookout have been deceived into thinking that the new tower is going to harm them. But there's no excuse for sloppy, ficticious, "journalism."

And to add to what an incompetent twit she is, the road to Mt Morrision has been widened and made much better since the last hearings. (That's about the only progress they've made on Mt. Morrision.)

Originally posted by kucharsk
One man's ugly is another man's neat. :D

Personally, aside from the problems that being too close to the towers would introduce for reception, I'd love to both live on Lookout and be that close to the towers. I think the towers, the guide wires, the transmission shacks, etc. are just way cool myself...

Does anyone more trained in these things know why towers couldn't be built at Rocky Flats? It seems far enough out that it wouldn't be shadowed by the mountains, but it might be too close to the NIST quiet areas (and, to be blunt, Boulder, which would never allow it to happen...) Well they could try and put towers anywhere they damn well please, including Rocky Flats, but they'd need to have the proper zoning. And that means hearings. And that means public testimony. And that means years of effort. And that means no HD TV anytime soon.

Putting towers on Rocky Flats doesn't serve the stations very well though. What the stations want is to get the same coverage area with their digital signals that they have with their analog signals. Imagine spending millions to build a new high power digital site only to have fewer people receive it. Sort of a slap in the face after being f'd.

Height. It's all about antenna height. Higher antennas increase coverage area. Lookout offers height.

I can easily see that this is all about money. So, the CARE 'people'(I use that term lightly) don't want a new tower, property values and all of that. So, the deal is that if a new tower goes up, a few will come down. Is that correct? What about the rest of the towers up there? Is there anything underway to remove those also?

Thanks for any info!
....jc

There really isn't any other site that works for all parties. Any site you can think of has problems. For example, no A/C power lines, limited access roads, shadowing and residents. People pretty much live everywhere in the mountains. And now that sCARE's shouted so loud, everybody thinks all towers are bad. They definately screwed themselves with that one.

Many of the newer forum readers never enjoyed attending the many tower hearings. sCARE's first alternative was to support Eldorado Mountain (Where KBCO's antenna is) No go. Too close to the NIST quiet zone. Then, their next 'big solution' was to push for the tower be put on Squaw Mt. way, way west of Denver. Guess what? The people of that county screamed bloody murder too, because they said the same thing, 'Not on my F'n mountain. Plus, that wouldn't work well anyway with the shadowing problems. All homes west of Wadsworth and north to Boulder would get absolutely no reception whatsoever. I live up here in the foothills and with some small mountains between, I still can't get a whiff of KBDI DT-12 now.

Lookout was first choosen because it worked best. And it still is best.

Originally posted by santellavision
Lookout was first choosen because it worked best. And it still is best. Or to put it another way, the engineers who chose the site - long before the current whiners built their houses in full view of the towers - were not idiots.

Originally posted by kucharsk
Just as an update...

I tried to turn on the HD captions on Charmed last night, and I noted that 2's HD channel acts differently than any others.

For example, if I go to 4-1 or 9-1, (or 2-0, for that matter), when I hit the "CC" button on my LG LST-3410a, I get a choice of CC1, CC2, CC3, CC4 or Text 1 or Text 2; when I do it on 2-1 I just see "English."

I suppose it could be a bug in my STB, but I'm more inclined to think it's some type of flag in the ATSC signal that the LG is paying attention to and other STBs ignore, or vice-versa... That's odd. I have a Samsung SIR-T151, and these are the CC options I see:
Channels 2-1, 4-1, 6-1, 9-1: OFF or Service1
Channels 15-1, 31-1, 53-1: CC1, CC2, CC3, or CC4

To add to the subject of the political ads and whether the stations benefit from them, the answer is "NO" they don't. Political ads are required to be charged the lowest average price of , I believe, the last 12 month period. Even if the stations have higher priced advertising all paid for, they can't run it if there is a political ad to be run. The higher priced ad gets bumped to a different month, time period, etc. They don't get to price gouge for the election season and that is what is implied in the "article". ( additional profits are non-existent, at least for the stated argument ). But, they do make plenty the rest of the year! :)

Jeff

I didn't know that about political ads, but now I'm even more upset with that article. Someone writing for a paper should know better.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
I can easily see that this is all about money. So, the CARE 'people'(I use that term lightly) don't want a new tower, property values and all of that. So, the deal is that if a new tower goes up, a few will come down. Is that correct? What about the rest of the towers up there? Is there anything underway to remove those also?

Thanks for any info!
....jc
All the current towers(*) on Lookout are grandfathered in -- they can stay there forever. The worst case scenario, for everyone involved, is for the existing towers to be repurposed to transmit HDTV once NTSC goes away. The towers themselves can't be modified, including adding ATSC transmitters, unless the zoning is changed.

(*) Which were built way back in the '50s, before zoning was established on Lookout Mountain. I believe Fox had to get a zoning change to build their tower originally, so they're good to stay on Lookout forever.

The towers themselves can't be modified, including adding ATSC transmitters, unless the zoning is changed.This is that 'gray area'. The stations feel they can modify the transmitters inside the building, but not the antennas outside on the tower. sCARE says otherwise. They say that they can't do anything whatsoever, because Digital TV is not the same as Analog TV, thus must require a zoning change.

Uh, what idiot would think digital TV isn't still TV? Jerry Springer is still as stupid on both! And just like analog cell phones are the same as digital cell phones. (That didn't require a zoning change) Or a watching a movie on analog VHS is the same as watching the same movie on a DVD.

My gut says sCARE will go down in flames on that one. But they're used that. 666...aaaahhhh!!!!!!

If we have to wait for the change out, then sCARE really will have screwed the pooch. Because those old technology antennas on Lookout are all omni-directional and not the newer directional antennas.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
I can easily see that this is all about money. So, the CARE 'people'(I use that term lightly) don't want a new tower, property values and all of that. So, the deal is that if a new tower goes up, a few will come down. Is that correct? What about the rest of the towers up there? Is there anything underway to remove those also?

Thanks for any info!
....jc

The removal or modernization and cosolidation of other towers to improve the landscape is another disservice that (s)CARE has done to themselves. Certainly after the LCG fiasco, there will be no attempts by anyone to improve the tower situation on Lookout. It can only be pointed to as Magic Mountain (where laws of physics don't apply) (credit to ksellers for that one), sCARY-land, or Never-Never (IMBY)-land.

So what is to keep a couple of videophiles from hooking up with the TV stations and in the middle of the night switch over to the new antennas and transmitters :)

HDTV done in the middle of the night.......

What just continues to piss me off is a very small group overriding a service that is to be provided to millions of people..... I guess democracy doesn't work huh.....

Originally posted by colofan
I guess democracy doesn't work huh.....

Not when it can so easily be bought. The judge's actions (or lack thereof once he brought everything to a screeching halt) do seem abit odd, don't they???

Originally posted by colofan
I guess democracy doesn't work huh.....
HaHaHa, don't even get me started on Politics! 'Democracy' has very limited applications anymore...Applications where money has yet to ruin the process.

We could simply put the tower up for a vote, we would win, but that won't work because our legal system allows anybody to sue anybody else for anything. Back to where we are now.

So, it's time for a plan(a mission). Let's call it the Denver Dosedo(the Potomac Two Step was used in a movie). We need a new park for children in the Denver area. Oh, disadvantaged children, that's sounds much better. The only area suitable area for this park is on Lookout Mountain. The area where most of the CARE folk's live. Since there is simply not enough room for a decent park up there, a few homes might need to be razed. Eminent Domain would be used. Revenues to pay for this park, would be generated at the discreation of a newly created Park Council So, we get this proposed park on the ballot. It passes.

CARE says that the problem is the RF radiation, when we all know that it's just for the money. Well, we say that we need a park up there for disadvantaged youth, when it's just for the purpose of taking their homes, installing a Park Council whose purpose is to generate funds by adding a few towers and leasing the space, and making CARE a nonissue. Oh, and yes, I guess we better build a park too.

I guess if they want to play games, we should oblige them, and raise the ante.

....jc

TPW - what you've proposed isn't all that far off of what's happening. Once the new tower gets built (whether in our lifetime or not), the land that the old towers were on, as well as - what, 90%? - of the LCG-owned property where the new tower will live, will be given back to Jefferson County and designated as open space. In other words, a park.

Unfortunately, sCARE seems to be anti-Open Space as well.

OT, but for those of you locally with 921s, the new software is downloading right now that adds OTA guide data, and fixes the recording problems you've been having on KCNC and KUSA! I've posted my own personal initial release notes over at DBSTalk in the 921 Support forum, if you're interested.

I live in Highlands Ranch and with my D* Sony HD100 (which I sold on ebay already :( ) I was able to get all OTA channels, including ABC. From my roof I can see Downtown. I have a 80" radio shack Antenna in my attic.

With my HD Tivo the tuners are not as powerful I think. I am not having the reported problem where 1 tuner is more powerful than the other, they both are not as powerful as my HD100. I have tried unsuccessfully to move my antenna and point it better. That is not working.

I am looking for other suggestions. I am very close to being able to get ABC ( am at around 15 - 19 signal strength). I am wondering if I got a new or better antenna, would that help? If so, what type of Antenna and where can I get one?

I "could" try to install it on my roof, but I would really rather not fight my HOA, although I know I could win. I am by open space (walking paths) and would rather not go that route if possible.

Amp/Pre Amp, would that help? I dont really understand what the difference is.

I am looking into Comcast HDTV and 6412 as well, but would really rather stay with D* and OTA for locals. I like HDTIVO pretty well and NFL Sunday Ticket.

Thoughts and suggestions?

tkercher:

Roof is always better no matter what. I am on the board of my HOA and I have a CM 3023 80 in yagi on my roof on a 10 foot pole just to get KMGH. I got it from Stark Electronics as there is not a good local source. My experience with amps was not good as it was overloaded with very strong analog UHF signals such as Fox 31. Another CM antenna that people report is very good is a 3021 8 way bow tie. It is about 3 foot square.

My experience with my HD Tivo was the opposite of yours. It works much better on KMGH than my old RCA DTC 100. I have read that the Sony tuners were very good tho.

As to the difference in the two tuners on weak signals, an amazing thing happened with the e software upgrade. Both tuners on ABC are now close with one being about 60 and the other 57. Although they fluctuate a bit, I still get a lock on both tuners now with little pixelation. I have no idea what fixed this for me. I get all other stations from 80 to 95. If you are only getting 15-19 on KMGH on the Tivo, I think you will definitely need to go to the roof. If my signal is below about 50, there is not a good lock for a good picture. I think the manual says you need 60 or better.

Good luck!

If you've read any of our thread, you know OTA DTV is a game of inches. Move it 3" and you might get ABC. Have you tried working with someone to see what moving/adjusting it in your attic does to your signal strength?

Guys have had good luck with those RS Yagi's. And also Channelmaster is highly recommended. I agree with Dennis, I have a CM 3023 and it works great. So does the 3021. Pre-amps and Amp are the same thing. Different terms. You can always go get one at RS and return it if it doesn't help. They don't usually work in our area because all the other signals overload it and actually decrease your SS. Do you have a good quality cable with NO splices or splitters between the attic and the receiver? One splitter can really hurt.

I wouldn't worry about any HOA. Most have learned the law after so many years of Sat dishes. It's plain & simple. Put up your antenna and if they contact you, just send them a copy of the FCC rules. Case closed.

If you've read any of our thread, you know OTA DTV is a game of inches. Move it 3" and you might get ABC. Have you tried working with someone to see what moving/adjusting it in your attic does to your signal strength?

Yeah, I have read and forums and been on for quite a while. I had to really move it inches to get all OTA channels with my Sony HD100, but I was able to. I have tried moving it all over the place (inside my attic) and it does not help. I believe the HDTIVO is not as powerful as my Sony HD100.

Are the Channel Master Antenna's better than the Radio Shack antenna (80") I currently have?

Thanks for you comments.

Yes. But, on the roof is best with any antenna.

Is the DB4 a multi-directional antennae? If it is how accurate in direction do you have to be for the best signal. Also are you using their PA16 Pre-amp in your set-up? Thanks

Don't forget the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment found the diagnosed cancer cases to be nearly 10 percent below the expected number of cases on Lookout Mountain, which covered 23 years of cancer statistics.

>>Don't forget the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment >>found the diagnosed cancer cases to be nearly 10 percent below the >>expected number of cases on Lookout Mountain, which covered 23 >>years of cancer statistics.

SAY...couldn't the SCARE group now claim that RF is GOOD FOR YOU. Imagine renaming it 'HEALTH' mountain.

Living at 7700' up here on the Mtn, I'm right in the antenna 'beam'. Maybe that's why my heating bills have been so low? ;)

"Its not very directional antenna, it is more on the multi-directional side. I believe it has a spread of 40-50 degrees. In my case I point it directly at Republic Plaza to get strongest signal from CBS and NBC (and PBS). They are at about 150 degrees from me. I can move it about +/- 15 degrees from that and not see any significant degradation so it is somewhat forgiving. I also get very strong signals for WB and Fox which are at 190 degrees from me on LO mtn. It also gets the 38-x PBS channels. Yes, I am using the PA-16 preamp. It does improve signal strength a bit, especially for NBC. However, the DB4 also works just fine without it."

______________________________________________________

Thanks! I have yet to put up an antennae, but will venture into this in January. So I am still looking at options for antennaes. I really like what I have read about the DB4. Since this is so touch and go here in Longmont there is the obvious possibility I may have to return the antennae if it does not work for me. Do you know anything about their return policy? Or would it be easier to sell it here or maybe on Ebay if it doesn't work out?

If it doesn't work out, It might be easier to hold on to it and contact the next guy on our thread who asks about antennas. (save the return shipping which is almost as much as the antenna sometimes) That's how I got one. Just keep passing them around, 'til it finds a home.

I live in Loveland and the 40" RS will not pickup anything except 2 and 31. When I got an antenna from a fellow AV's member which was the big CM model I have been able to get 9.1DT but no cbs or abc.

I think it is a 4228 model. Preamp from RS did not help.

Originally posted by colofan
I live in Loveland and the 40" RS will not pickup anything except 2 and 31. When I got an antenna from a fellow AV's member which was the big CM model I have been able to get 9.1DT but no cbs or abc.

I think it is a 4228 model. Preamp from RS did not help. If you can get 9.1 (16) there's a good chance you should be able to get 6.1 (18) also. CBS 4.1 is on channel 35 which is going to be somewhat harder because of the higher frequency. Try fine-tuning the antenna direction on your CM 4228; the gain curve is much tighter on channel 35 than on channels 16/18.

ABC is a lost cause, of course.

What about the overload problem on channel 32 (31 digital) if I add a UHF amp seems like I could easily overload? I mean my 32 is maximized on the signal meter of my sony hd-300.

I would like to improve the margin on channel 16. The snow is going away and my signal has dropped 25% on the meter. Interesting how weather and moisture effects this so much. I know geek alert :)

Hi colofan -
Although 32 is strong, it probably isn't so strong up here that a preamp would overload, but different preamps have different immunity to overload problems, so one may work where another doesn't. A good preamp at the antenna will make the weak (or seemingly non-existent) signals into usable ones. Another factor I've found relevant here is tilt. It seems antennas tilted 45 degrees have worked alot better for me. I don't know if the polarization of the transmitting antenna is at 45 degrees (some do that to compromise between horizontal and vertical polarization) or if it is a factor of shift as the signals bounce around in the atmosphere, but it is another factor in the game of pulling in something from nearly nothing. Also, ensure that the balun is attached to the UHF terminals on the antenna, and not the VHF feed-thru on the other side of the boom, that will make a huge difference.

EDIT: also, the position/orientation of the balun, itself, is a factor. You may need to move the balun around slightly to find the best location under the boom and try to secure the RG-6 cable using tie-wraps to keep it from moving in the wind.

What would be a recommendation for a preamp? I have a UHF only antenna so no need to worry about VHF section. Is the CM a better preamp than winegard?

Yes I have found that the balun location does make a difference. Though the wind in the last two days has made it challenging to say the least in adjusting.

Is there a premade connection for tilting the antenna or will I have to fabricate?

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
A good preamp at the antenna will make the weak (or seemingly non-existent) signals into usable ones. Not true from what I've read. A pre-amp will boost the signal such that you can afford the line losses from the antenna to the receiver, but will not improve the SNR. If you don't have a good enough SNR coming straight off the antenna (which, in theory, you could check by taking your STB up on the roof where your antenna is) then a pre-amp will not do you any good.

CM 7775 is I think the UHF pre-amp. (Either that or CM 7777, don't remember) Winegard and CM are probably equivalent.

On my pole with a 80 in Cm yagi, it was difficult to tilt more than a few degrees (didn't make much difference anyway). There is a guy in LA (check out LA threads or Google) that sells antenna fabrication stuff.

I just used a tripod on a slant, but of course it looked pretty ugly. My preamp was a RS uhf-only model that they don't sell anymore. The power supply for it was junk, had to snip it off and use my own regulated variable power supply - 14 volts seemed to work better than the 19 volts it came with.

Long runs of coax (like 50 feet or more) will suck out the weak signals bringing them down into the noise level. A preamp prior to the cable run (at the antenna) will boost the signal so that at the end of the cable run, the signal will still be there, still considerably above the noise level. That is why I say that it makes an antenna jump to life, because it can make a signal that gets lost in the noise something well above the noise. And, it gets a little nippy sitting on the shingles watching the tube this time of year.

Originally posted by oxothuk
Not true from what I've read. A pre-amp will boost the signal such that you can afford the line losses from the antenna to the receiver, but will not improve the SNR. If you don't have a good enough SNR coming straight off the antenna (which, in theory, you could check by taking your STB up on the roof where your antenna is) then a pre-amp will not do you any good.
This is exactly what I've been taught.

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
Long runs of coax (like 50 feet or more) will suck out the weak signals bringing them down into the noise level. A preamp prior to the cable run (at the antenna) will boost the signal so that at the end of the cable run, the signal will still be there, still considerably above the noise level. That is why I say that it makes an antenna jump to life, because it can make a signal that gets lost in the noise something well above the noise. And, it gets a little nippy sitting on the shingles watching the tube this time of year.
Again, what I've been taught. The problem is that a lot of people out there think that a preamp is some kind of magical device that you can just attach to an inferior antenna, then wiz-bang they get all of the signals that they were looking for. If that was the case, we would all be using matchbook sized antennas, and we could pitch the 7', 10' & 15' ones that we are using now.
....jc

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
And, it gets a little nippy sitting on the shingles watching the tube this time of year. My STB is a Samsung SIR-T151. If I keep that thing on my lap I can stay warm in any weather. Now if I could just keep the TV from sliding off the roof....

That and trying to convince the wife to bring me a beer up.

Glad to have found this thread... first time reader/poster here tonight.

I live in the northwest corner of Longmont (in the Shores), and have had ok luck with my HD reception. I put a Terk HDTVs Antenna Pro in the attic, and with a little tweaking, I can pick up digital signals for WB, Fox, 4, 6, and 9 (and some other miscellaneous stuff that I didnt keep). The reception is pretty fragile tho - move the antenna a little bit, and Im down to WB and Fox. Im using a Dish 811 as my receiver.

I think that makes me pretty lucky (from what I have read so far). But having some makes you want to have more. Im totally addicted to HD football.

Sooooo the question is, is there ANY precedent for picking up ABC in NW Longmont, or would I be chasing ghosts. I would love to have ABC for Bowl football, but Im not real optimistic.

Ill keep looking here, but over 400 pages of stuff is a LOT of reading... :D

jc

Originally posted by Mtnmike
That and trying to convince the wife to bring me a beer up.

and I thought I had trouble convincing the wife to bring a beer down to the basement home theater...

You have no chance of getting ABC-HD OTA up there until the tower is built.

DirecTV is expected to have locals for Denver in HD next summer.

Comcast currently carries ABC-HD.

Was afraid of that... oh well, guess I may have to consider another provider if I want ABC. Sounds like as long as sCARE is around, it will be a long wait for OTA.

Overall, Ive been happy with dish, but the HD programming selection seems pretty weak.

jc

jc,

Get a Dish 921. Then you can record lots of HD stuff off Dish and watch it whenever you want. Mines's loaded all the time with plenty of juicy shows. Ahhhh... Bikini Destinations! - Yum!

Definitely something that was on my wish list - have to recover from construction of the HT first however. Do you know if Dish has made any noise about carrying HD feeds for the Denver Locals? If Direct is going there maybe there is hope. I couldnt get them to say anything useful about it, in fact couldnt convince them to give me the waiver for CBS (maybe correctly since I seem to have it now).

Talking about it may make me leave the office here and fire up the Infocus and see whats on... Work can wait until tomorrow right? Lets see... Bikini destinations, work, Bikini... aw hang it, time to go see.

jc

The CM 7775 is CM's top of the line UHF-only pre-amp. I'm installing one tomorrow as a replacement for a RS 15-1108, which is VHF & UHF. I'm running 2 antennas in my attic, a 70" no-name (it came with the house) UHF/VHF antenna pointed at Lookout Mt. and a Winegard PR-8800 pointed at downtown Denver. Both have RS 15-1108 pre-amps because this has been a progressive adventure and the RSs were cheaper and more readily available at the start.

The problem is that I want quality analog channels as well as my digital channels. The UHF/VHF pre-amp on the PR-8800 boasts the weak high VHF signal so much that it creates severe ghosts on channels 7 and 9. BTW, my analog signals on 2, 4, and 6 look as good, maybe better, than my E* locals on a 50" Sammy DLP. Also, with my attic antennas, w/o a pre-amp, I'd only get Channels 2.0 and 4.0, no digital channels and no 5, 7, and 9.

The multi-path problem w/ Channel 32 (31-1) isn't its higher power. If you point your antenna directly at it, pre-amp, or not, you shouldn't have a problem. The problems come when you pick it up while pointed elsewhere. Because antennas have radiation patterns with some odd high-gain bulges, when you pick it up on an angle, you probably are also getting it on one of those odd side bulges, but out of phase. Thus the multi-path experience, which a pre-amp, true to its name, amplifies.

Sometimes a more directional antenna helps, but the PR-8800 has some really odd bulges. To keep the 2 antennas from interfering with each other on channels 32 and 34, I moved the aim of the PR-8800 further east of downtown to catch a null point on the 8800; zero signal on both, good signal off the other antenna pointed at LO Mtn.

Regarding antenna selection, I found this site helpful even though the information is a few years old.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Also this site has links to a lot of antenna configuration testing and even a commercial source for antenna mast tilters. I've found the answers to a lot of those "what if" questions about antennas here.
http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm

BTW, my available excess, besides one RS 15-1108 pre-amp, now includes a Winegard PR-9018 (Yagi) and MS-2000A (omni-directional). PM me if interested in any of it.

If you don't want to get a UHF-only preamp, you can kludge something together with two VHF/UHF splitter/combiners and the RS AMP to split the signal coming from the antenna into VHF and UHF, run only the UHF signal through the amp, and then recombine the signal with the other splitter/combiner.

I do something like this to strip UHF off the large VHF/UHF I have pointed at Lookout Mtn and combine that with the signal from the RS UHF Yagi I have pointed at Republic Plaza. I didn't think it would fly but it actually gives me a decent signal on 4-1 and an excellent signal on 9-1. Reception of 2-1, 6-1 and 31-1 are pretty much givens; I had no problem receiving them with the VHF/UHF pointed at Lookout.

Well I misspoke on the antenna model I have a CM 4248 which is just UHF. I am going to order a preamp today (the CM 7775) since I have a medium length run not counting the two splices for the grounding block and in the house wiring wall plate. Way back I seem to recall that each splice was a 1 dB loss and that baluns also can make a difference.

I'm going with the UHF-only pre-amp on my PR-8800 pointed downtown because I need to amplify that UHF signal, but don't want amplification of the VHF signal that the 8800 readily picks up. Unfortunately, most available passives will allow stripping out one channel or stripping out UHF. Stripping VHF as a spectrum isn't an option with any of the stuff I've reviewed at Warren Electronics and Stark Electronics web sites.

I did try Join-Tennas trying to trap VHF Channels 7 and 9, but they added a lot of loss to the system, dropping the signal strength on my DTV from RP. The VHF ones have to be used before the pre-amp and it is best to do the same with the UHF ones. Even living with the lower signal, they stopped working after 4 months. Thumbs down on Join-Tennas.

Originally posted by MileHighJC
Glad to have found this thread... first time reader/poster here tonight.

I live in the northwest corner of Longmont (in the Shores), and have had ok luck with my HD reception. I put a Terk HDTVs Antenna Pro in the attic, and with a little tweaking, I can pick up digital signals for WB, Fox, 4, 6, and 9 (and some other miscellaneous stuff that I didnt keep). The reception is pretty fragile tho - move the antenna a little bit, and Im down to WB and Fox. Im using a Dish 811 as my receiver.

I think that makes me pretty lucky (from what I have read so far). But having some makes you want to have more. Im totally addicted to HD football.

Sooooo the question is, is there ANY precedent for picking up ABC in NW Longmont, or would I be chasing ghosts. I would love to have ABC for Bowl football, but Im not real optimistic.

Ill keep looking here, but over 400 pages of stuff is a LOT of reading... :D

jc

Yep, you have absolutely NO shot at picking up KMGH-DT. I'm over by Spencer and 18th and am able to get everything else. I have everything optimized for the most channels with one antenna position, but this won't allow for KBDI-DT (which really doesn't have any HD yet). I think we are really lucky considering all those who have a lot of trouble with 4-1, 6-1 and 9-1 up here.

KKTU-DT, ABC out of Cheyenne was broadcasting for awhile on 11-5 or 11-6, but I don't think they have any HD plans for some time. They dissappeared a little ways back. It wasn't HD, but it was digital. It was nice because I boycott KMGH and it was a half-way decent picture.

KRDO-DT, ABC out of CS or Pueblo I think, it suppose to get HD equipment in 2005 some time. They are broadcasting digital but no HD. I don't know if we'd have a shot at them up here. Comcast didn't have HD up in Longmont the last I heard, but that may have changed by now. We will probably see ABC-HD on Directv long before any other provider up here in Longmont. And you still might have to deal with waiver issues, because technically speaking, KMGH-DT is braoadcasting to three people in Denver.

Originally posted by AkaStp
In case the 26dB of the CM 7775 (or 28dB for Winegard AP4800) is too much you might want to also get a Winegard AP4700 (or PA16 from Antennas Direct). Both are UHF-only and have a lesser 16-19dB of gain. If you purchase CM or WG from somewhere like SolidSignal you can always return the one that is not needed. Getting a lower gain preamp has another advantage in that it won't overload as easily. For example, the Winegard SS preamp (HDP-269) has 11dB of gain and can tolerate much more signal input than their higher gain preamps. Sometimes too much gain is not good......

Originally posted by sunshinedawg
We will probably see ABC-HD on Directv long before any other provider up here in Longmont. And you still might have to deal with waiver issues, because technically speaking, KMGH-DT is braoadcasting to three people in Denver.
DirecTV should actually be able to provide KMGH-DT, not a generic ABC-HD, next summer. My previous statement was poorly worded. So no waiver issues.

Originally posted by sunshinedawg
We will probably see ABC-HD on Directv long before any other provider up here in Longmont. And you still might have to deal with waiver issues, because technically speaking, KMGH-DT is broadcasting to three people in Denver.

LOL... and Im sure two of those three dont have any HD gear. I had lunch with another DirectTV subscriber today, he has heard the same. Being a Dish guy (at least for now) I guess Ill have to harass them a bit.

At least from my POV, HD material is a HUGE differentiator to me - If Dish cant get there in a similar timeframe as Direct, Ill be switching. BTW : I think you are right about Comcast HD in Longmont... I checked it when I built the theater, and it wasnt there yet. I did however wire the rack for it JUST in case...

jc

Originally posted by dr_mal
DirecTV should actually be able to provide KMGH-DT, not a generic ABC-HD, next summer. My previous statement was poorly worded. So no waiver issues.

I have the feeling that D* might offer the ABC-HD EAST-WEST feeds before the LIL's(supposedly next summer, but we all now how that goes!), but that's just my best guess. With the EAST-WEST feeds, I think u would still need a waiver.

Originally posted by dr_mal
DirecTV should actually be able to provide KMGH-DT, not a generic ABC-HD, next summer. My previous statement was poorly worded. So no waiver issues.
Yea, if ya live in the Denver DMA, which I don't.

A funny thought just occurred to me. Where is D*'s Denver uplink facility? With the reception of KMGH so poor in the Denver area, what are the chances that it can be received at their uplink facility?

And, of course, KRDO ABC in C/S is just broadcasting SD on their digital broadcasts(which I can't receive anyway).
....jc

Where is D*'s Denver uplink facility? With the reception of KMGH so poor in the Denver area, what are the chances that it can be received at their uplink facility?Less than Zero. Their main satellite uplink facility is way south in a valley, off Sante Fe south of 470. But they wouldn't take an off-air feed anyway, they would most likely have the stations uplink/downlink to them. They also have a facility in CA too I believe.

E* is in Cheyenne and I'm not sure about them. I do know they have a fiber link to Denver. I use it from the Comcast digital center on Dry Creek all the way to Cheyenne. So, I'm not sure if they can use that or not.

Originally posted by santellavision
...But they wouldn't take an off-air feed anyway, they would most likely have the stations uplink/downlink to them. They also have a facility in CA too I believe.
I guess that is the question: How does D* handle the transmission of local channels? I assumed that D* handled all of that on their own, and that is why I assumed that they had their uplink facility in every town that they carried the local channels for. It may be a 'cooperation' thing, or not wanting to depend on a 3rd party to relay the signals. I have noticed times that when the C/S locals have gone out, it was all of them, and not just one, while their non-local channels were just fine.

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
How does D* handle the transmission of local channels?
A bunch of researching later, I guess I'll try and answer my own question(If anybody can add to this please do!).

It appears that D* establishes a LCP('local collection point') in each market. A lot of times this LCP is at a local station. The LCP usually receives feeds from the other local stations via fibre, but I did find 1 instance where they got it OTA.

From the LCP the signals are usually transmitted via fibre to D*, however, sometimes they use an uplink. In one case I found info from a station engineer(I don't know if he ran the LCP) who indicated that he sends the raw feed to LA, where D* compresses & encodes it, and sends it to Castle Rock via fibre.

So, it looks like they use multiple methods of gathering the local signals, and transferring them to D*. One thing is for sure, D* only has about 4 uplink centers, with the main one at Castle Rock. The other big one is in LA, and 2 others are located in MN and I think NY, and they handle local channel uplinks.

One thing that I've noticed is the lag time that the local channels D* provides have. When watching a live sporting event OTA from Denver, and I walk back to my office, I'll hear the same thing again on the TV there that's using D* for C/S local channels. This is on both ABC & CBS, so there is a lot going on behind the scenes with D* local broadcasts.

....jc

Originally posted by AkaStp
The Winegard SS preamp (HDP-269) is not UHF-only. I had a problems when I tried a CM 26dB preamp (can't remember model # - got it from Lowes) because it was not UHF-only. Since using a less gain UHF-only preamp I've had no problems. However, I have no need for analog or VHF reception, just the UHF digitals. I used that an as an example for high input overload, and it is very good in that regard.

Originally posted by AkaStp
...I had a problems when I tried a CM 26dB preamp (can't remember model # - got it from Lowes) because it was not UHF-only.
What do you do with a preamp with that much gain? The only purpose that I can think of is running it thru a large(or series of splitters) and trying to feed the whole house.

...However, I have no need for analog or VHF reception, just the UHF digitals.
Not yet. :) But, if the preamp lasts long enough, you will!
....jc

I believe he's talking about when stations eventually move back their VHF frequencies...I think.

Originally posted by AkaStp
I learned that a preamp won't boost an almost non-existent signal and that what I really needed was a decent antenna.

I am most hopeful that I did not give you the impression that a preamp was some sort of magic. A good preamp will perform its function well in the case of it being used for its intended purpose. Their intended use is for fringe area, not particularly what I would call Boulder. Since we are dealing with a highly unusual situation here, just about everything we do is experimental and subject to disappointments.

Not to say preamps are junk, because that is not the case, but to clarify, the purpose of a preamp is to boost a weak signal (due to loss in the coax) to a usable one. It has to be a good signal at the antenna (as was previously pointed out along with some humor), not one that has a lot of multipath or other interference. A preamp is not a substitute for a good antenna, but rather a means of delivering the signal at the antenna to the end of a long run of coax (plus some noise from the preamp). So that may mean either a better (more directional/higher gain) antenna or a better location, or both. In my case, with a 100' run of RG6 cable, there was little signal (unusable) at the end of the cable, and a preamp made that almost non-existent signal (at the end of the cable run) into one that worked (for a year, anyway, but that's an unrelated story). I still use it for the stations I still receive, and would not be able to get KBDI-DT without it, and KDVR-DT would only be marginal on my square shooter antenna. KWGN-DT is good either way. A preamp works fine for me, but every situation is different, and no one can predict what will/won't work for you. Don't rule out a preamp yet, but optimize the antenna without one first, then see if a preamp helps you. Weak RF signals are just a pain to deal with, no matter what. That pain has a name.

Originally posted by Symbios
I believe he's talking about when stations eventually move back their VHF frequencies...I think.
Yup, I see an awful lot of people working their butt's off, experimenting with this and that, spending lots of money, and possibly ignoring the future. Of course, it's much worse in Denver(compared to other markets), as most everything here is temporary.
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Yup, I see an awful lot of people working their butt's off, experimenting with this and that, spending lots of money, and possibly ignoring the future. Of course, it's much worse in Denver(compared to other markets), as most everything here is temporary.
....jc I wouldn't bet on stations broadcasting DTV on their analog frequencies after NTSC dies. Way back when (3-4 years ago) Ch 4 told me they'd stay on 35 and return 4 to the FCC since channels 2-6 were not ideal for 8VSB transmissions.

There was some discussion a while back about what will happen if stations find LCG to be futile. While stations continue to find this "situation beyond their control" to be useful in delaying transmission expenditures, there will be a time when NTSC goes away nationally (open to much discussion as to when), and are forced to transmit ATSC, LCG tower or not. Since one of the stations is owned and operated by the network, there's some deep pockets there. While transmission on the lower VHF frequencies is subject to impulse and natural interference, it may be the only alternative to LCG that is open to them (using their existing tower). If it is a matter of survival, they are forced into that option until they can move to a better frequency (which the FCC recognizes for lower VHF stations). Most viewers will not be affected, since something like only 10% of households get locals via OTA anyway. Probably a lot less than that once the transition occurs, and even less in Denver where receiving DTV requires a degree from the asylum.

While far off into the future, if sCARE sees that the existing towers can/will remain and LCG is an improvement, LCG might stand a chance. Then 35 will become the most likely home of CBS here.

Originally posted by AkaStp
I would guess that its a real nightmare from Boulder, especially the lower lying areas. Yes, almost all of Boulder is shadowed by Davidson Mesa. On a couple of occasions when I've been in CC and mentioned that I get my HD through OTA reception, the reaction I get is that "oh, I thought that was impossible in Boulder". But I'm located NE of town where the mesa is less of an impediment.

Originally posted by Geof
I wouldn't bet on stations broadcasting DTV on their analog frequencies after NTSC dies.
I would. I've read too much info stating such. I've even read an article that stated the current UHF assignments were temporary.

I don't know if the stations will have a choice to stay in the UHF band(especially stations currently broadcasting in the low VHF bands), but I do expect some to move back to VHF(Denver 7 & 9 are good possibilities).

From the station's standpoint there's cost(supposedly cheaper in VHF) and the identity thing(We're Channel 7 damn'it, we're gona broadcast on that frequency).

Who knows. But, I do expect some movement.
....jc

OK this sucks! While reading the Sunday paper this morning, noticed on page 2 of the SoundTrack add that the Broncs should be in HD today at 2:04 p.m. Tuned in, low def 4:3 blur-o-vision! They also blocked my NY HD feed. GRRR! I wanted to try out my new 921's instant replay and other features.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
I would. I've read too much info stating such. I've even read an article that stated the current UHF assignments were temporary.

I don't know if the stations will have a choice to stay in the UHF band(especially stations currently broadcasting in the low VHF bands), but I do expect some to move back to VHF(Denver 7 & 9 are good possibilities).

From the station's standpoint there's cost(supposedly cheaper in VHF) and the identity thing(We're Channel 7 damn'it, we're gona broadcast on that frequency).

Who knows. But, I do expect some movement.
....jc UHF assignments are not temporary. What is temporary is that all stations can use two frequencies during the digital transition. When NTSC goes away so does one of their channel assignments. Each station can decide which channel assignment to return to the FCC.

Given that Ch 4 Engineering previously told me they would stay on 35 I choose to believe that remains the case. Ch 4 is not great for DTV. Same with channel 6 although I do not know what KRMA will do. As to the others what they do is probably going to depend on what happens with LCGII. IF LCG II goes thru and is built the tower will serve KCNC, KMGH, KUSA, and KTVD. That's channels 4, 35, 7, 17, 9, 16, 20, and 21. I suspect that one antenna will be designed to transmit 16, 17, 20, and 21. Given that I suspect KUSA and KMGH will stay on 16 and 17. It doesn't really matter what KTVD does given they are already UHF.

Originally posted by Jetlag
OK this sucks! While reading the Sunday paper this morning, noticed on page 2 of the SoundTrack add that the Broncs should be in HD today at 2:04 p.m.
Yup, 1st time in a while that CBS didn't broadcast the game in HD. Titantv had it correct that the game wouldn't be in HD. KGWN(Cheyenne) still had audio problems(left channel only), even though it also wasn't in HD, but the signal from KCNC was good enough today to watch the game on it.

CBS caught the classy move by Plummer when he gave the crowd the finger(his hand was behind his head). No wonder the fans really luv ya Jake!

_______________________________________________________
Actually, I think that Sharpe was right, Jake ain't get'in it done. Geez, only
2 interceptions today. And, Shanahan, Don't get me started!
_______________________________________________________

....jc

Yeah I saw that shot of Jake giving the crowd the finger too. I guess he doesn't like to get booed when he does stupid things. Given that he does stupid things a lot and even says that's the way he plays football I guess he likes to do stupid things. He still hasn't fingered it out......

Hi Guys,
I just made my first foray into OTA HD this evening by hooking up my new SIR-T451 to my HDTV, and I'm not sure everything's quite as it should be. I'd like to ask a few questions and get your opinions on what I'm seeing:

1. I have an attic mounted antenna and I live in Thornton. The first thing I did is the channel setup on the Samsung and it is receiving the following stations -- KUSA(9-1), KRMA(6-1), KCNC(4-1), and KBDI(38-1). Shouldn't I at least be getting Fox and WB, as I thought they were easy to get?

2. Here's what really puzzles me. I'm seeing a couple of programs purportedly in HD (as they fill the 16:9 screen), but although they are much clearer than an analog signal, they aren't any better than DVD quality. The 451 is outputting 1080i via component. Shouldn't my jaw be dropping? I've never seen what HD looks like before, so I was expecting to jump out of my socks based on others' testimony. The "HD" I'm seeing is no better than a good DVD.

3. Which channel would I find Fox digital on?

Sorry for the newbie questions. I've been all through the 451's manual and everything appears to be setup and connected correctly. I have a Terk TV35 in the attic feeding a ChannelMaster 7775. I'll try fiddling with the antenna position when I get some time.

Any and all comments are appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Hey filmnut -- haven't I seen you somewhere before? ;)

Fox digital is on 32-1. 24 should look great in HD next month.

24?

Sorry, I meant 24, the Fox tv show. Kind of confusing in the context of my previous post.

The show on Fox.

Since KWGN and KDVR's signals are so strong, you might be over powering the STB with that preamp.

You all should find this article quite interesting concerning OTA, DBS, and Satellite HD:

HDTV The Big Picture!!! (http://www.rogertowne.com/HDTV.htm#HDTVBigPicture)

Originally posted by Symbios
Since KWGN and KDVR's signals are so strong, you might be over powering the STB with that preamp.

Soooo, you're saying that if the signal at the STB is too strong, it can't handle it? That seems so counter-intuitive. I guess I should try it without the preamp, and if that doesn't work, mess with the antenna.

I still wonder why the HD I've seen so far this evening isn't drop-dead gorgeous. Maybe the programs they're showing are upconversions and not real HD? How does Sunday football look compared to the average evening program?

I have bought myself a plasma for Christmas, so I have to get rid of the Mitsubishi WS65 HDTV; it was used only on weekends for football and DVDs (seriously); it works perfectly. I have the owner's manual, the service manual, and the remote.

If interested, you can see it in action in Wheat Ridge, hooked up to Direct TV.

I am asking only $300; bring your own truck!

Mike.

Hi Mike,
I sent you a PM regarding the TV. Please respond when you can.
William

Originally posted by dr_mal
Hey filmnut -- haven't I seen you somewhere before? ;)


I have seen filmnut hang out in the home theater builder forum quite a bit.

Anyway, filmnut, check out CSI Miami tonight at 9:00 on channel 35 for close to reference quality high def.

Btw, what display are you using?

Don

It's actually been a while since I've been on the builder forum. I finally finished my theater in May and I spend too much free time down there now.:)

The display I have the 451 hooked up to is a Toshiba 50H81 50" diagonal CRT rear projection, which I bought about 3 years ago. It accepts 480i, 480p, and 1080i inputs, and I know it upconverts both 480i/p to 540p. I assume it displays 1080i natively but maybe it downconverts that to 540p as well. The manual doesn't say.

I haven't converged the guns in a long time so that may also contribute to some fuzziness. I'll definitely check out CSI tonight. Thanks for the tip!

Originally posted by dr_mal
Hey filmnut -- haven't I seen you somewhere before?
Originally posted by donyoop
I have seen filmnut hang out in the home theater builder forum quite a bit.

It was actually supposed to be a reference to the fact that he asked his OTA questions in the Comcast thread originally (where I answered them). Sometimes my (odd) sense of humour doesn't always translate.

Originally posted by AkaStp
You think there's a likelihood that stations will move to VHF for HD?

Edit: Just discovered this...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=481120

I do expect this to happen. At the very least, I'd expect KDBI to retain 12.

I remember the KCNC Engineer telling us that over at KDVR they are "boiling water" as a reference to the power/heat needed to power a high-uhf transmission. Thousands of reasons/month for KDBI to move from 38 to 12.

KCNC would be another candidate for moving, but as has been noted, 4 is not the best freq. for DTV, so is seems they've decided not to move. I don't know the $$$ penalty for running a channel 16-18 verses 6-9, so I don't know if those channels will want back on thier VHF freq. (and 6, like 4 is not ideal for DTV).

My understanding is that in phase 3 of the conversion, channels with at least one core freq. can move to another, more desirable freq. if it is "open". If this is true, there may be some more movement, but I realize the cost of the equipment may be too great to amortize over time with lower electric bills.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Sometimes my (odd) sense of humour doesn't always translate.

I got it.;)

MRinDenver's TV for sale reminded me...I've still got my samsung ts-360 hdtv tuner (directv) sitting downstairs, haven't used it since I got the hd-tivo. If anybody wants it before I ebay it, 100 bucks. You'd need your own dish though.

Hey guys, what if I put a For Sale/Wanted page on the www.denverdtv.info website? As the AVS forum doesn't really approve of listing items for sale. I've got a bunch of items that I don't need that might help others out.

Unfortunately, I'm in Atlanta this week, but if you guys email me with info, I'll put them up this weekend. I can also put up pics if you send them too.

email: ernie.santella@comcast.net

santella-bay?

That would be great! I've got some snow tires and motorcycle parts I'm trying to get rid of.

I helped set up a DH DirecTivo tonight for my sister in law in Highlands Ranch. I was quite surprised to find KMGH-DT came in fine on an indoor Terk antenna, but could not get KCNC-DT. Just goes to show how fickle these signals can be!!

Another strange thing was when she called to get CBS-W they immediately turned it on with no wavers required. I thought Highlands Ranch needed wavers form Colorado Springs, but I guess not.

Now I need to work on my wife to let me get one of those. :(

I know that the admingurus here at AVS would rather we didn't post items for sale on this site. However, my problem is that there isn't a better place. Denver area people who are really into HD hang out here; as a marketing guy, I know enough to fish where the fish live.

The Rocky and the Post classifieds are like throwing money in a hole as far as this type of equipment is concerned.

As a result of my two line notice on Monday, I quickly sold my 300 lb monster RPTV (at a buck a pound) to a guy who got got a real bargain. All this took less than a day to negotiate, and the movers are coming to claim the big box this morning.

It was truly win-win. If there is another way that works equally well, I am interested. Because now I want to sell my Lumagen Vision (but at least that can be packed and shipped!)

Mike

Originally posted by MRinDenver
I know that the admingurus here at AVS would rather we didn't post items for sale on this site. However, my problem is that there isn't a better place. Denver area people who are really into HD hang out here; as a marketing guy, I know enough to fish where the fish live.

The Rocky and the Post classifieds are like throwing money in a hole as far as this type of equipment is concerned.

As a result of my two line notice on Monday, I quickly sold my 300 lb monster RPTV (at a buck a pound) ... Mike I'd be interested in some sushi at a buck a pound?! :D

This summer I changed from a Radio Shack antenna on my rooftop to a terk TV-32 antenna and it noticibly increased my reception by 5% or so. Not earth shattering but it did improve all the downtown stations it was aimed at. I did add the six foot pole that came with the Terk to the top of my 6'mast and that could account for some of the improvement. But even with the improved reception I couldn't consistantly lock onto 7-1 (17). I live in an area where i do not have line of site to downtown and I know that plays a fair part in my signal strength. Also the terks grid design is much less suseptible to the wind and is not moved around in the gusty winds we get here in Morrison.
In august I exchanged my Hughes 10-250 because of the reduced OTA signal strength reading in one of the ota tuners. To my pleasant suprise the new Hughes not only had slightly improved OTA reception on both tuners but was able to lock on 7-1 digital signal and for the first time I was able to watch ABC hi-def. The signal lock is still hit and miss, but I have been able to watch MNF with very few problems.
I would suggest you exchange your Hughes. I think they may have improved the hardware and/or software on the 10-250. You will have to go thruogh Directv to return the receiver- is anyone else upset that Hughes has no direct contact with the public anymore- if you don't want to void your in store extended warranty. Soundtrack said they would give me a new receiver but it would cancel my extended warranty, but I was still covered under manufacturer warranty and Directv did it in a fairly easy manner. It couldn't hurt trying a new receiver and it might help.

tngjsv, the 6' addition to your pole accounts for ALL of your improvement, plus more that you're losing because of the Terk. Put your Radio Shack antenna back up 6' higher than what you had before, and you'll be seeing more than 5% improvement, and may be able to lock into KMGH.

OK let's see what we have here in Denver so far. If anyone has any additions, please add them.

2.1 - "The" WB - 1080i - (recently turned off their permanent stretch mode!)
4.1 - CBS - 1080i
6.1 - PBSHD - 1080i, sometimes abruptly switches to 480i, I abruptly change the channel (used to be 6.3??)
7.1 - ABC?? - 1080i?? ( I cannot get this one, tuner doesn't even try)
9.1 - NBC - 1080i
12.1 - PBS - 480i
12.2 - PBSKids - 480i
12.3 - PBSYou - 480i
16.1 - NBC - 1080i
17.1 - ABC??? (My TV tries to lock onto this one, but never gets the channel)
31.1 - Fox - 720p (Slightly stretched when showing 4:3 shows)
38.3 - PBS - 480i
38.4 - PBSKids - 480i
38.5 - PBSYou - 480i
53.1 - KWHD - 480i (Religious)

What am I missing?

Just some info, I am in Lakewood and using only an indoor antenna. I am too lazy to install a rooftop one.

Is PBS kids still there? Because both 12.2 and 12.3 are broadcasting PBS-U on my receiver.

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
OK let's see what we have here in Denver so far. If anyone has any additions, please add them.

2.1 - "The" WB - 1080i - (recently turned off their permanent stretch mode!)
4.1 - CBS - 1080i
6.1 - PBSHD - 1080i, sometimes abruptly switches to 480i, I abruptly change the channel (used to be 6.3??)
7.1 - ABC?? - 1080i?? ( I cannot get this one, tuner doesn't even try)
9.1 - NBC - 1080i
12.1 - PBS - 480i
12.2 - PBSKids - 480i
12.3 - PBSYou - 480i
16.1 - NBC - 1080i
17.1 - ABC??? (My TV tries to lock onto this one, but never gets the channel)
31.1 - Fox - 720p (Slightly stretched when showing 4:3 shows)
38.3 - PBS - 480i
38.4 - PBSKids - 480i
38.5 - PBSYou - 480i
53.1 - KWHD - 480i (Religious)

What am I missing?

15.1 KTFD (Telefutura, Spanish) 480i
25.1 (broadcasting on channel 29) KDEN (Shop-at-Home) 480i
From what I've heard 7.1 is 720p rather than 1080i. Of course that's only a rumor, like the station itself.

You've got some dupes in there:

7.1 is a virtual number for 17.1
9.1 is a virtual number for 16.1
12.x are virtual numbers for 38.x

(and while we're on the subject)
2.1 is a virtual number for 34.1
4.1 is a virtual number for 35.1
6.1 is a virtual number for 18.1
31.1 is a virtual number for 32.1

In the old days (like 2-3 years ago), we used to refer to OTA DTV primarily by the "real" channel number. These days, with newer receivers remapping to virtual numbers, and the stations doing a better job with PSIP, we seem to have morphed into referring to stations primarily by their virtual numbers, which are in place to make the transition easier on people -- we only need to remember the old analog channel number now.

What is interesting is that I can tell my TV to tune into 9.1 or 16.1 and they both come in fine. I can tune my TV to 31.1 and it is fine but it refuses to pick up 32.1. I do like the virtual numbers better because they are definitely easier to remember.

So are there any updates on when the Lookout Mountain tower will be completed? Will this carry all of the current DTV channels?

BTW, you mention KRMA (6-1) - yes, they use different resolutions.

They're 1080i when sending PBS-HD content, and 480i the balance of the time when sending SD material.

One thing I found out is that Comcast does NOT send out the pbs OTA HD channel( 18.1) since I got my new 6412 DVR. :(

I noticed that some of the stuff on PBS-HD is not really HD, Instead it is "EDTV"... or just plain widescreen, but broadcast in 1080i with the PBS-HD logo plastered in the upper left corner.

Joe,
Have you checked out the www.denverdtv.info website? There is lots of information/links on our situation.

Great site, thanks for that link! Bookmarked!

So anyone who has Direct TV seen that they are going to be adding ABC-HD been able to get a waiver to receiver in Jan 2005?

Anyone know where the tower stands now that the elections are over?

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
What is interesting is that I can tell my TV to tune into 9.1 or 16.1 and they both come in fine. Because it's the same channel. KUSA-DT PSIP data allows some STB to access it with both the native and remapped channel numbers. I can tune my TV to 31.1 and it is fine but it refuses to pick up 32.1. Because KDVR-DT PSIP data remaps and locks out the tuning on the native channel number. My old STB (RCA DTC-100) has a menu selection to turn off/on the acquisition of PSIP data. When off, I have to tune by the native channel numbers. When on, I tune using remapped channel numbers (when the PSIP data doesn't foul up the receiver)..So are there any updates on when the Lookout Mountain tower will be completed? Will this carry all of the current DTV channels? Completed?! I'd be happy if it started, since it has been 17 months since it was approved. I suppose the LCG web site (http://www.lakecedarproject.com/) may still be kept up to date and breaking news would be there (or here on this thread) first. Of course, it still says this:The Lake Cedar Group anticipates beginning construction of the new tower sometime this fall with completion sometime next year, making high definition television available to all Denver viewers.Would that be beginning fall 2005?

LCG is 4 stations no that KRMA left the group, who was supposed to start their own tower construction on Morrison. They were approved in Feb 2003, coming up on two years now, and they haven't started construction (AFAIK). But judging by how many contribution requests I've been getting, I'll assume they don't have the money to start.

Originally posted by Couch Patato
One thing I found out is that Comcast does NOT send out the pbs OTA HD channel( 18.1) since I got my new 6412 DVR. :(

Could you elaborate on that? What do you get on Comcast channel 658 if not KRMA-DT? KRMA-DT seems the same to me whether I'm watching 658 on the 6412 or on one of my OTA tuners.

Originally posted by colofan
So anyone who has Direct TV seen that they are going to be adding ABC-HD been able to get a waiver to receiver in Jan 2005?

Anyone know where the tower stands now that the elections are over?
KMGH has been flipping us the bird for the last 4 years (at least); there's no reason to assume they'd suddenly play nice and grant us a waiver. Besides, AFAIK, D* isn't planning on launching a national ABC-HD feed anytime soon.

Also, D* should have all our locals in HD next summer if all goes well with the new satellite launch.

Originally posted by dr_mal
KMGH has been flipping us the bird for the last 4 years (at least); there's no reason to assume they'd suddenly play nice and grant us a waiver. And telling us to go away while doing it. That group makes Plumber look like a saint.

I took a look at SHEVRA (I am NOT a lawyer) and there's one distinct difference; that is the section titled "Signal Testing for DIGITAL Signals". Under the old rules you had no shot because SHIVA didn't distinguish between analog and digital. Meaning you could ask for a waiver, even ask for a signal test, and the test would show that you could receive the signal -- because while the digital signal wasn't there the analog was.

These stations know they're not going to win any signal test challenges. I think some D* subscribers who aren't picking up KUSA should try a waiver under the new rules and see what happens. That should tell us what'll happen when D* starts carrying ABC-HD.

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
I took a look at SHEVRA (I am NOT a lawyer) and there's one distinct difference;
AF, can you give a pointer to that?


These stations know they're not going to win any signal test challenges. I think some D* subscribers who aren't picking up KUSA should try a waiver under the new rules and see what happens. That should tell us what'll happen when D* starts carrying ABC-HD.
When do/did these new rules take effect?

For some weird reason, ABC is not a problem for me, but Fox is! BTW, KUSA did give me a waiver.

....jc

... HD radio that is :D

KBCO has joined KUVO in broadcasting HD Radio in the metro area. So now we have full-power HD from both Lookout AND Eldorado... The toasters must be singing away!

http://www.kbco.com/listen/hd_radio.html

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
AF, can you give a pointer to that?


right here:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/Z?r108:H19NO4-0085:e1767127:320290

look for title IX.

When do/did these new rules take effect?

From what I read I think 1/1/05.

For some weird reason, ABC is not a problem for me, but Fox is! BTW, KUSA did give me a waiver.


If Terry Barton can get out of jail then nothing surprises me anymore.

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
If Terry Barton can get out of jail then nothing surprises me anymore.
She's not going anywhere. But, I did have to check on this, and I read this crap:
But before imposing the sentence, Colt told Barton that he personally had been affected by the fire because the smoke forced him out of his house in Teller County to a hotel in Colorado Springs for a night.

Well, duh. And this guy was a judge? I do know of some mentally challenged people up here, but this guy was supposed to be a judge.

Colt also said his friend, division clerk Nancy Ashley, had to evacuate her home and missed five months of work after breaking her ankle celebrating the dousing of the fire....
And, I suppose that Barton pushed her down? Geez, I didn't realize that there was such a circus in Cripple Creek.

One afternoon while I was down stairs in my office working, the wind shifted, and with the upstairs windows open, smoke filled my house. Ooops. Maybe, I should have contacted this judge?

One thing about this whole episode that really pissed me off was US Cable. I hadn't switched to a dish yet, and those ^&*%$#@ pulled the plug and left everybody up here w/o any TV news. I couldn't believe it. They backed up a truck, loaded up all of their equipment, and headed out. Half the county evacuated, we were on 'stand-by', smoke everywhere, and no TV news. US Cable should've been thrown in jail! Needless to say, I switched to D* shortly thereafter.

AF, yea, I tried to read that gobbeltygook, and it's no wonder that the 'government' never gets anything done!

....jc

What is all of this "waiver" talk? I'm sorry, but it makes zero sense to me. I haven't gotten waivers from anybody yet I am still able to recive many channels off of my indoor antenna. Will the police break into my house and shoot me as I try to take a sip of my soda for not having waivers? What the hell?

Also, what is all of this cable talk? Isn't this an OTA thread? Isn't cable HD more compressed then even OTA HD? Man that must look atrocious if it is.

Waivers are for receiving distant network feeds (i.e. NY or LA) from satellite providers. Something some of us work on getting when we can't receive the OTA signal from the local network. The waiver rules are complicated and also just recently changed -- that's why all the talk about them.

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
What is all of this "waiver" talk? I'm sorry, but it makes zero sense to me. I haven't gotten waivers from anybody yet I am still able to recive many channels off of my indoor antenna. Will the police break into my house and shoot me as I try to take a sip of my soda for not having waivers? What the hell?
Yes, you are in deep. I just forwarded(for a reward) your AVS info to the FBI. They are going to break into your house and shoot you dead for using an antenna to receive signals. Geez, didn't you know that was banned?

Just kidding. The 'Waivers' are from local stations to allow you to receive network feeds, via satellite, from the East and West coast. They are supposedly granted if you can't receive the local signals
.....jc

Aw man, I was hopin' for some FBI action. :)

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
For some weird reason, ABC is not a problem for me, but Fox is! BTW, KUSA did give me a waiver.

....jc

How did you get a waiver from KUSA? I tried and got two quick form letters (e-mails) in a row saying no deal. Any tips?

Originally posted by jpco
How did you get a waiver from KUSA? I tried and got two quick form letters (e-mails) in a row saying no deal. Any tips?

I plugged the zip code from Woodland Park, CO into the DNS eligibility check for D* and KUSA is not claiming them as being part of their territory. Just KOAA from C/S (Grade A), so they may have been the station that granted the waiver. Lucky us, eh?

Originally posted by jpco
How did you get a waiver from KUSA? I tried and got two quick form letters (e-mails) in a row saying no deal. Any tips?
I used D*'s little toy that's at(although it's not working right now):
http://directvdnseligibility.decisionmark.com/app/AddressEntry.asp

It indicated that I was not in the signal area for ABC(Denver) and NBC(Denver), so they gave it to me w/o a waiver. I didn't need ABC, but I did need FOX, and that waiver was denied because of a 'translator' station for C/S Fox, that I can see from here. But, that signal isn't ATSC, so who cares.

But, what bugs me about the whole process, is that I already have local channels from C/S via D*. So, why would they even give me a waiver for a Denver station? Who knows, this whole thing is a mess.

....jc

Originally posted by jpco
How did you get a waiver from KUSA? I tried and got two quick form letters (e-mails) in a row saying no deal. Any tips?

jpco -- how long ago did you try? Assuming I read the SHVERA correctly (and that's a pretty big assumption) beginning 1/1/05 you can contact D* and ask them to request a waiver for KUSA for you. If they deny your request you can ask for a signal test. And since this new act draws a distinction between analog and digital signals you'll win.

I currently receive KUSA HD ota -- I have 0 season passes set up for that station. If they weren't bringing me Adele & Kathy in HD every night I wouldn't even know they were transmitting.

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
I plugged the zip code from Woodland Park, CO into the DNS eligibility check for D* and KUSA is not claiming them as being part of their territory. Just KOAA from C/S (Grade A), so they may have been the station that granted the waiver. Lucky us, eh?
Nope, Woodland Park is a small but diverse area. The SE end of town has an almost LOS to Cheyenne Mtn.(C/S transmitters), but as you head West(and out of WP), Pikes Peak becomes a factor. I have LOS to none of the transmitters, and I get a fuzzy signal from 1 of them(KKTV - 11 - CBS).

Up here KOAA is just a fantasy. I found my original post on this issue, and it's here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4489661#post4489661

While I live in the C/S DMA, the toy is smart enough to know that my best chances of reception are in Denver.

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
jpco -- how long ago did you try? Assuming I read the SHVERA correctly (and that's a pretty big assumption) beginning 1/1/05 you can contact D* and ask them to request a waiver for KUSA for you. If they deny your request you can ask for a signal test. And since this new act draws a distinction between analog and digital signals you'll win.
.

BTW:Under the new law if you lose the signal they can make you pay for it.

Originally posted by ADent
BTW:Under the new law if you lose the signal they can make you pay for it.
Can you explain this a little better? Lose it how? AFAIK, if you are using a satellite based service, you pay for pretty much everything.

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Can you explain this a little better? Lose it how? AFAIK, if you are using a satellite based service, you pay for pretty much everything.

....jc

I'm pretty sure he means the signal TEST you end up paying for the test. At first I didn't think that was any different than the old rules, which is why I didn't bring it up. But I dug through the old rules and it turns out that the signal test fee would be paid by either the sat provider or the station (station paid if the signal proved to be sufficient).

So yes, under the new rule if you challenge the signal strength and it turns out the signal test shows the signal is sufficient then you (consumer) pay for the test.

How many of these tests do you think KMGH will have to lose/pay for before they just start sending out waivers as Sunday Denver Post inserts?

Some DirecTV subscribers are reporting that ABC HD is showing up on accounts in owned and operated cities (not Denver).

It might be a good time to ask KMGH for HD waver requests. :D

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
How many of these tests do you think KMGH will have to lose/pay for before they just start sending out waivers as Sunday Denver Post inserts?
Based on what I've seen(for most of you haven't seen), KMGH is a privately owned station vs network owned?

....jc

The 'For Sale' section is now up on the www.denverdtv.info website.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Based on what I've seen(for most of you haven't seen), KMGH is a privately owned station vs network owned?

....jc
Not sure if you were asking a question or making a statement, but KMGH is NOT network owned. They're owned by McGraw Hill (the MGH in KMGH)

O.K., now I'm confused again. If you have a waiver from KMGH can you get a hi-def signal via satellite from Directv? I actually got a waiver years ago from them when I first got my Directv dish long before any digital signals were being sent and still get the N.Y. & L.A. feeds from ABC , but no hi-def like I do get from CBS (also got waiver) on the satellite. Why doesn't ABC have hi-def on Directv?
Does NBC or FOX send out hi-def signals on Directv? I don't have waivers from them, but I would be willing to make some phone calls if there was a chance. Don't tell the people at Directv, but its nice to have 3 channels to choose from on each network, not only for timeshifting but they often show different games from the different feeds.
To Markdl- actually the terk tv-32 did get as good or better reception when I originally set it up on just the six foot mast, but improved somewhat with the addtional 6'. The fact that i don't have to climb up on my roof after each windy day to fine tune the antenna is the real reason I like it better though.

Originally posted by tngjsv
...If you have a waiver from KMGH can you get a hi-def signal via satellite from Directv?
No.

Why doesn't ABC have hi-def on Directv?
Maybe the question is why doesn't D* have ABC?

Does NBC or FOX send out hi-def signals on Directv?
D* only has CBS & NBC(channels 80-83). They do however, on special occasions broadcast Fox teasers(World Series).

....jc

Best information is that while ABC is reluctant, they are negotiating with Direct TV for the rights to carry the national E/W HD feeds. There is no ETA at this time.

Also, Murdoch seems to be negotating with Murdoch for FOX HD to also appear on Direct TV. Those D* viewers with "engineering cards" are supposedly seeing the E/W Fox HD feeds now.

Both of these developments are potentially good news for Direct TV subscribers. If true, of course, and if in this lifetime. Would be real nice to see the BCS BS in HD.

Mike

P.S. I live the new "For Sale" section on the DTV site. I'm considering the talking toaster. Does it come in cobalt blue?

I'm considering the talking toaster. Does it come in cobalt blue?
No, but it does come in 'Devil Red'. ;)

I know of no official announement, I just found that it was on by accident.

I'm not getting it in Fort Collins. :(

quote:
I'm considering the talking toaster. Does it come in cobalt blue?

No, but it does come in 'Devil Red'.

I assume it glows in the dark so I can make my toast on these December mornings without wasting undue electricity.

______

Good news about FOX HD on D*; and the insiders say ABC HD is on the way, "soon".

and the insiders say ABC HD is on the way, "soon".

I'm looking forward to applying for an ABC-HD waiver from KMGH to see what happens. I guess I already know what will happen; that won't stop me from applying.

Don

No Fox HD in Aurora, zip 80013

I'm in 80013 and I do receive Fox 31 in HD with an indoor antenna. Don't get 4, 6, 9, 12, 20.

go figure.

I was talking about not getting it from D* since it was turned on yesterday. I get 2,4,6,9,12,31 from my outdoor antenna.

Well I called about fox hd on D* and they are now putting in a seperate waiver. Actually though my Fox HD OTA is the best signal. However since the Fox is suppose to be for O & O stations and KDVR is one of these I thought why not?

Also is strange that with the snow recently my reception was better then the melt and my signal went down.... Strange stuff

The Lake Cedar Group anticipates beginning construction of the new tower sometime this fall with completion sometime next year, making high definition television available to all Denver viewers.

Did they mention which YEAR? :D

Originally posted by jp9
The Lake Cedar Group anticipates beginning construction of the new tower sometime this fall with completion sometime next year, making high definition television available to all Denver viewers.
The problem is they are still waiting on their day in court with Chief Judge Jackson. When I checked last week this date hasn't even been set yet.

Which property(ies) does judge Jackson own on Lookout?

Ah comeon...judges NEVER have conflict of interests. They would never let a little thing like smoke making them evacuate influence their ruling.

opps...wait a minue.