I have started watching more HD content on KCNC (CBS), notably ANY sports, CSI, The Ellen Show (which I never watched until I got it in HD) and Survivor. Now, despite the fact that most sports and Survivor were not true widescreen HD, I thought the 4:3 material is a lot more clear than the Direct TV feedthrough that I get.

Of course, CBS should take note that when I watch the HD-Digital channel, I cannot tune out the advertisements, as I do with my Direct TV-Ultimate TV PVR. I cannot remember the last time I watched prime time TV without a time delay--just so I can skip the commercials. Starting 20-30 minutes after a show starts usually works very well..... Guess this situation will change when someone starts selling HD capable PVR's......

dan L

Don,

If you're looking for new PBS material keep your eye out for a series called Smart Travels with Rudy Maxa. It hasnt been on since last October but I've noticed the last couple nights an episode has been on at 5:30 pm local time on 18 via PBS National. Hopefully it means the whole series is going to be re-shown.

Theres like a total of 13 half hour episodes and they usually show one or 2 per week in the evenings over a 6 or 8 week period. Then on the weekends they'd show a few also. It's some of the most spectacular HD you'll see. Consistently rated in the top 5 by members who have ever seen it.

I'm sure Geof and others may have not had a chance to have seen it before either. Heres a list of the episodes, with Naples being the one they've shown the last couple nights:

Episode #101--Naples
Episode #102--Rome
Episode #103--Venice
Episode #104--Italian Riviera
Episode #105--Florence
Episode #106--Italian Hill Towns
#107--Provence
#108--Paris
#109--London
#110--English Countryside
#111--Belgium
#112--Netherlands
#113--Denmark

Fellas,

With all the talk about the Super Bowl, I went to look at my KDVR picture. No reception, so I rescanned and it was not added. I added it manually, but it comes up as PBSDTV and I still get no reception. Any ideas ? No problem with ABC, CBS or PBS.

Thanking you in advance

Doug

Thanks for the episode info dan. When I get home - and get the TV fixed - I'll keep an eye out for those programs.

Doug - What receiver are you using? Have you tried tuning to 31-1 (which is what I do on my Mits receiver)?

geof,

I am using the Panasonic TU-HDS20. Unfortunately, it does not allow for direct tune to the dash 1 part of a channel, only the whole number. I am continuing to rescan, I have recieved it ever since I hooked up the TV an last week it just started to not come in. The I went to CES this week and when I came back I had no better results.

Doug

Best information I can find about Smart Travels With Rudy Maxa, from the Rocky Mountain PBS site:

1/19/02, 12:30pm Smart Travels -- Europe with Rudy Maxa
Naples and the Amalfi Coast

1/26/02, 12:30am Smart Travels -- Europe with Rudy Maxa
Rome
(that IS 12:30 AM, not PM)

Is there a better source of information for what is going to be shown on the national PBS HD feed, or our local HD feed? I haven't been able to find anything definitive.

I think those listings are probably for the analog channel right? And it's not like a simulcast situation. Unfortunately trying to find info for the National feed is like looking for hens teeth.

If it holds to form from previous showings, again, it will be at 5:30 local time weeknights. Perhaps 8:30 also if they replay it for the western audience. What they used to do was show the same episode/s for a whole week in that time slot as well as show a couple back to back on Sat/Sun afternoons. Then the second week, they'd start with episode 102, and so on.

About the only listings I've ever found for any programming on the National feed is like on HDTV Galaxy, or even the PBS National dtv website where they list some PBS H/DTV stuff, but even then in both cases it's only the debut showing of any particular program even though there are many subsequent showings in the days and weeks that follow.

Doug - I don't know much about the Panny box - I'm surprised it won't accept a subchannel (-1, -2, etc).


The silence from KDVR is deafening......I'm beginning to think this will not bode well for our 16x9 480p wishes. I recall that they were going to consider broadcasting the Phantom Menace in 16x9 before it was proponed to a fall broadcast (thus implying they had the capability to do so). I'm not sure but I don't think they ended up broadcasting it in 16x9 when it finally aired. Oh well, their loss, not mine (since the Bronco's won't be playing in that game I can watch something else rather than a ******dized 14x9 version).....

Thanks Dan for the Smart Travels info. I will try to monitor this forum more often to see when and if the episodes are broadcast. I did catch about half of episode #101 last week. I definitely would like to catch as many of those episodes as possible.

On the superbowl front, I am getting more pessimistic. Even if KDVR decides to do widescreen ED, the lights in the Superdome are historically poor giving a marginal telecast. The CSU game a couple of weeks ago there was terrible, I wonder if they had half the lights off or burned out. The last time the superbowl was in the Superdome (gb vs ne), you could hardly see the game in the 3rd quarter because of the fireworks smoke and the poor lighting. Hopefully fox will lose the NFC rights to NBC so that the superbowl 2005 will be HD (i believe abc and cbs are next in line). I don't believe that will happen because NBC is losing a ton of money on the olympics. Then there is the potential lack of competiveness of the game. If the rams play the patriots on that turf, it is going to be a wipeout. I will still be watching it anyway.

Hopefully KMGH will move to republic plaza this year or cut a deal with KRMA so we can see next years superbowl in high def since the lookout mt. situation looks bleak.

Don

Anyone else watching The District and seeing the audio sync problem again? Why is it so much more difficult to get the audio synced up right with a digital television signal as opposed to an analog one?

Mark,

I am not seeing the problem with lip sync on the District, but I just started watching about 5 minutes ago. I am still having a problem scanning for KDVR, though.

Doug

I am interested in purchasing a HDTV receiver. I own the Sony VPLVW10WT which is HDTV ready and live in Lowry.

Would anyone be willing to provide advice for a receiver matchup for the Sony?? Does anyone have the same projector?

Antenna suggestions for the Lowry area?

I am primarily interested in OTA reception.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to respond to a "newbie" (at least I hope to be very soon). I have been reading past information on this thread for several days and am excited to get started.

Welcome weisco! Nice to see more new people popping up in our little section of the world. The following are my limited suggestions, based on what I've gone through in the last month to get up and running. Others will probably disagree, but... :)

As far as receivers go, I have a Dish 6000 which I would not recommend to you if you are primarily interested in OTA only.

From Lowry, I would think that you'd be able to receive 18, 32, and 35 (PBS, 14:9 Fox (bad fox, bad fox), KCNC) without too much difficulty. KMGH is doubtful, but you won't know until you hook it all up and try it. If you've been reading the thread for a while, you know that KRMA and KCNC are broadcasting from the top of Republic plaza downtown. KDVR (bad fox) is broadcasting from Lookout, and KMGH is broadcasting from the top of their building at 6th and Speer.

Antennas, if I were you, I would start cheap, and then work your way up. Start with an indoor solutiion like the Radio Shack double bow tie antenna (part #15-623). That's what I use from 4 miles away, and get very good signal on all of the stations. If that doesn't work, then I'd try the Radio Shack yagi (part #15-2160, and which I have an extra one sitting in my basement if you can't find one locally) mounted in your attic or on your roof. (Roof is better signal wise.) If that doesn't work, then move up to one of the Channel Master or Weingard big antennas. Some of them are pretty expensive, and are not available locally (at least I couldn't find anyone that carried them), so you'll be stuck ordering them online. www.starkelectronics.com has been mentioned by others as a good place. If you end up mounting on the roof and have a long cable run to you box, you may need to consider a signal amp to cancel out the signal loss from the long cable run. Once again, Channel Master and Weingard amps seem to be preferred over others.

Good luck, and let us know how it all works out! Who knows, you may become lucky #7 that can receive KMGH (I was #5)!

Welcome weisco,

I'm not familiar with your projector but it probably works best at some specific native rate. Check the manual and find out if it likes 480p or 720p or 1080i. Not all STB's are capable of delivering all of these outputs so this is probably the first thing you'll want to understand to narrow down the choices. There are other forums on the AVS site that deal with projectors so you might want to try searching several relevant forums to see if you get some hits (which is very likely). Nothing like reading some first hand comments from folks who've "been there, done that".

One consideration is that some of the "current" HD DirecTv/OTA capable STB's are being (or have been) discontinued. The Mfgr's haven't announced any info on replacement models so it's possible that you may have to settle for something you might not quite want unless you're willing to wait for the new models.

I believe your choice for an OTA-only STB is limited and the only model that comes to mind is a Sansung SIR-T150(?).

Good luck, have fun, and enjoy HDTV. Don't fret about asking questions - we can all learn something along the way...

The local PBS KRMA and KBDI respectively:

KRMA (http://www.krma.org)
More Direct Route: (http://www.pbs.org/digitaltv/dtvsched.htm)

KBDI (http://www.kbdi.org)

WETA - DC (http://www.weta.org)

Hi weisco,

I've got the same Sony VPL-VW10HT projector. I'm using a Panasonic TU-DST51 HDTV receiver and DISH 5000 combination. Both models are discontinued so you won't find them in a local store. Since your projector can display 720p you might want to find a receiver that can output that. That's the only suggestion I can give you. Do a search of the Internet and you'll find a 10HT specific forum where you can get more info.

Michael

I just received my Channel Master Stealthtenna today. I am able to pickup both KRMA-DT and KCNC-DT with no problem.

I am watching 'Everybody Loves Raymond' and I did notice the audio feed on KCNC is being recognized by my Yamaha receiver as DD 5.1 but the dialog is not coming from the center speaker. Strange.. I am wondering if there is a problem with the audio feed. Anyone else seeing this?

The antenna is actually just rigged in the unfinished part of my basement right now so I am hoping to be able to pickup KDVR and KMGH (wish me luck) with the antenna installed in the attic later this week.

I am located south of Denver near the Park Meadows area.

- Dustin

Originally posted by smithdzd
I just received my Channel Master Stealthtenna today. I am able to pickup both KRMA-DT and KCNC-DT with no problem.

I am watching 'Everybody Loves Raymond' and I did notice the audio feed on KCNC is being recognized by my Yamaha receiver as DD 5.1 but the dialog is not coming from the center speaker. Strange.. I am wondering if there is a problem with the audio feed. Anyone else seeing this?

- Dustin

Yes. Go back and read page 34 for a couple alternatives to get Pro Logic output instead of 2 channel.

Has anyone here received any replies from KDVR about the widescreen (non-HD) telecast of the SB this year? Apparently all is still silent concerning any response from KDVR as to passing through the SB in widescreen 420p this year. So much for inviting friends over to watch FOX digital. It would have been mildly embarrassing to show people a 420p SB instead of HD like last year, but to show them that POS 14:9 which not only looks lousy but would cut off most of the on screen game graphics is just shameful. Well at least the lack of support for HD from FOX is consistent from Rupert all the way down to the locals.

(***Insert Rhetorical Question Here***) Gee, I wonder if FOX would allow KRMA to broadcast the widescreen version like the did with the CBS feed last year?? (**End of silly speculation masked as a rehtorical question.**)

I noticed this article in today's HD news.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20020114/tc/will_digital_tv_give_cable_tv_the_boot__1.html

It discusses new OTA chips which allow stations to multicast as many as 5 channels in the bandwidth allocated for HD. How much do you want to be Rupert and the folks at FOX are 'all over' that new technology while ignoring HD.

All silent from KDVR here. I'd say at this point they are definitely in the "ignore annoying high-end user" mode. A shame, as I have very little respect for KDVR (and Foc for not putting any pressure on their O&O stations) anymore. They might as well not even be broadcasting on 32 for all the good it's doing them.

Since they won't return E-Mail's I wonder if it would do any good to call them.

Anybody have any contacts over there?

Later
Joe

No reply from Fox local here either. What a shame too, because I'll have a friend in town that weekend who is looking to relocate here, but is accustomed to HD in New York (and Fox's 480p), but has a major problem taking " a step back in time out in Denver" (as he calls it) after investing in all the equipment.

On the KCNC front, is it just me or are there still some lip sync problems? Last night, things were off enough to make me change channels, other times it has looked great.

Brian,

It was off on audio sync last night a bit. Not terrible, but noticeable. I sampled their Monday night lineup for the first time. Even HD wouldn't have me watching that lineup on a consistent basis.

Just an opinion. Maybe it was an off night.
Jeff

I had lip sync issues on KCNC last night as well. Hopefully it'll be better for tonight. (how many times are we going to keep saying this?) JAG was one of my favourite shows BEFORE I could see it in hi-def.

I was relocating my garage-based antenna last night so my wife wouldn't hit her head on it every time she got in or out of the car (some people have no tolerance for progress :)) and I just realized I totally forgot to check KDVR's signal strength as I was pointing it. The only station I bothered checking was KCNC. Oh well. If KDVR ever decides to broadcast anything better than cropped NTSC, maybe I'll check the signal strength. Otherwise, channel 32 is idle on my receiver.

I watched a couple of shows last night and saw the lip synch issue on KCNC with my UM OTA receiver too. Not horrible enough to make me turn it off, but definitely annoying. I wish they would fix that problem.

Reading the Forum, I have seen numerous comments on "Why" the Denver Broadcasters have not begun or even constructed the HDTV Antenna's on Lookout Mountain..

If you are interested in seeing what the Denver Broadcasters are up against, and you have access to Dish Network, Tune to Channel 9514 (FSTV) and watch their documentary called "Lookout Mountain".. It is pretty much a one sided discussion on the issues of placing the HDTV "SuperTower" on Lookout Mountain.

I do have to warn you.. FSTV is a Left-Wing Channel that is biased and only shows issues in a one-sided manner.

The Station is located in Boulder Colorado

You can check the schedule at http://www.fstv.org to find the air times. (They are pretty much every other day about 3 times per day.

OK, being in Loveland, I've put off purchasing the 8VSB module for my 6000 for obvious reasons. With the slim possibility of 480p Superbowl from KDVR, has anybody with DTV OTA capability in northern Colorado been able to acquire the KDVR signal? I get a very good analog 31 from my roof top antenna.

Originally posted by MalcolmG
OK, being in Loveland, I've put off purchasing the 8VSB module for my 6000 for obvious reasons. With the slim possibility of 480p Superbowl from KDVR, has anybody with DTV OTA capability in northern Colorado been able to acquire the KDVR signal? I get a very good analog 31 from my roof top antenna.

Malcom
I live in the Gunbarrel area on the north end of Boulder. I don't recall seeing any posters much farther north and getting reception, but that may just be the luck of the draw. As far as KDVR goes, I can get it here even with a pair of rabbit ears, so I would think you would have an excellent shot at receiving it in Loveland although you might have to go to a rooftop antenna in the extreme. If you already get a good picture with minimal multipath on 31 I would think your chances are very good. As for KRMA and KCNC from town, depending upon the terrain between your home and Denver you, if you are high enough you might have a very slim chance of even seeing them as well, although you would definitely need a large UHF only antenna, good cable, a very short run to the TV and no in-line splitters. If you did get those two, (just for perspective) I would think you would win the prize for longest distance with reception of KRMA and/or KCNC. These are my guesses only, "your mileage may vary".

In north Longmont, KRMA is typically in the 37 (day) to 51 (evening) range after optimizing the antenna location. KDVR can be optimized to the 65 range, but in optimizing for KRMA brings it down to the low 30s.
KCNC sometimes causes a blip and a reading of 3. Apparently their dipole antenna is very directional towards Boulder, those of us in Longmont and north will probably have to wait for Cheyenne to come on line.

Hmmm, I figured less than zero chance of KRMA or KCNC from downtown, but it sounds promising for KDVR from Lookout. I guess I'll order the OTA module. Worst case I'll be ready for KGWN. Mark, your numbers for KRMA in north Longmont are intriguing. I am actually west of Loveland in the foothills, with some significant elevation gain (I figure I am at about 6100 feet)that might give me a clear shot at downtown Denver. Maybe if I have absolutely nothing else to do I'll get up on the roof and see what's up. Where's that Channel Master catalog?

Your location/elevation may just give you the edge on getting KRMA for that distance record. Good luck! Anyway, reception of 22 from Ft. Collins (analog) will probably give you a better image than 32 (IMO). Their cropping on 32 and image quality is a problem that they don't seem interested in fixing. According to this website:
http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/co/Radio_TV_On_Internet.asp?m=for
Fox will be transmitting digitally on 21, I haven't heard of when, but it may make it easy to use the same antenna for Cheyenne and Fox on 21 whenever it happens. Also, channel 17 out of Ft. Collins is booming here in Longmont, much more signal than 20 from Denver. So even when 17 moves to Lookout (if ever), I think the duplicate allocation of channel 17 by the FCC will make our chances for ABC in north CO rather slim.

Has anyone heard anything from or talked to anyone at KWGN recently? Titantv shows a projection of Feb 1 (16 days from now) for going live on channel 34. Is there any news on this front, or where they will be broadcasting from?

Originally posted by MalcolmG
OK, being in Loveland, I've put off purchasing the 8VSB module for my 6000 for obvious reasons. With the slim possibility of 480p Superbowl from KDVR, has anybody with DTV OTA capability in northern Colorado been able to acquire the KDVR signal? I get a very good analog 31 from my roof top antenna.

I get KDVR's digital signal in Greeley with an attic antenna. I don't watch much of it because it's cropped and looks horrible, but I do get it. :rolleyes:

Nothing else makes its way up here, though. I'm hoping KGWN out of Cheyenne get's up and running soon!

I sent them an email requesting status via their FEEDBACK page yesterday. No response yet. Yes, I see that TITANTV has KWGN-DT going live on Feb. 1st 2002.

I don't think KWGN is doing anything, at least I could not find anything filed with the FCC on their page at:
http://www.fcc.gov/mmb/vsd/files/dtvstat11.html

I went ahead and emailed their engineering dept to see what the story is. We'll see if I get a reply.

This FCC list above may only list the major networks because I did not see WB listed for any other cities. I am curious as to what HD programs WB would deliver. Is anyone familiar with what HD programming WB is delivering in other cities?

Also, thought this might be of interest..Out of the 11-30 markets Denver looks like it may be the most behind in DTV deployment (big surprise there!), it is also the only city in 11-30 markets besides Cincinatti that does not have an NBC affiliate on the air with DTV. Comeon KUSA..get with the program!!

Its really a shame that Denver will probably be one of the last cities to have full power HD OTA signals just because of the whole tower squabble. I don't think many other cities are having as much trouble as we are here.

- Dustin

In addition to emailing KWGN yesterday, I also sent off an email to the KTVD engineering department asking them if they'd be able to make the May 1 deadline. Here's the response I got from Mike Dant, the head engineer:

Due to transmission site zoning issues we will not make the May 1 date. We are awaiting a decision on an interim plan such as a low-power transmitter and site. Additionally, we do not yet know what format UPN will be using for HDTV although I would expect it to follow CBS (1080i).

KTVD is part of the LCG aren't they? If so, this doesn't bode well for the rest of the LCG stations either. We probably won't see KUSA do anything this year much less than by May 1.

I also haven't received a response from KWGN. You'd think that the engineers would want to talk about this. I know that I love talking about my new toys, and these new toys that they're playing with are way cooler than any new toy that I could get. Know what I mean?

Isn't KTVD currently broadcasting from Mount Morrison? I think they are on the tall tower there. That tower is a properly zoned tower, according to what was said at the community meeting for the new HDTV tower on Mount Morrison. If this is true, why don't they just add their HDTV antenna to the existing tall tower? I don't think they are waiting on any zoning issues with the county.

-Wabisabi

This is from their website:
UPN affiliate KTVD-TV is owned and operated by Channel 20 TV Company with the maximum allowed power of five million watts transmitting from Mount Morrison at seven thousand six hundred and eighty two feet above sea level.

Maybe they were looking to relocate to Lookout as part of LCG. I got the same reply from them when I sent feedback, so I replied back and asked them if they were planning to relocate the DT signal to Lookout.

- Dustin

I got a reply last night from the Director of Operations and Engineering at KWGN, Don Rooney. Here's what he said in response to my question about whether KWGN was going to make February 1, and where they were going to broadcast from:

KWGN's target date for DTV is May 1, 2002. Our plan is to roadcast from our current transmitter site on Lookout Mountain. We plan to build out a full power facility, but may run at reduced power at certain times.

So, sounds they are trying to follow KDVR's lead and use their existing tower with modifications to broadcast from Lookout.

I cannot belive that the KWGN Engineer said that!

Do you know what kinda' of sh*t storm that's gonna' cause. (S)CARE, The NIMBY's and the BANANA's are gonna have a field day with the fact that he said they were planning on building out their facility and adding an additional Full-Power transmitter & HDTV antenna to their tower on lookout!

Wow, I wish i was their lawyer, i'd go buy that winter place in Tahiti!

I do not remember all of the details, but I do recall that KWGN's transmitter is not zoned the same as the other stations and they should be able to go on the air with HD when they are ready to do so. Recent FCC rulings would allow them to run at reduced power for a while and drop to even lower power during non prime time hours. I am not aware of anything the (S)CARE folks can do to stop them, as they are in a situation similar to KDVR. Of course if there is a way to slow it up I am sure we can count on (S)CARE folks to try. As an independent, they are not required to be on the air before May 1 of this year and are not likely to do so. Can't blame them for that. They wouldn't have any HD content to show at this time anyway. Only the major networks were supposed to be on the air a few years ago.

As for channel 20 (KTVD) they are part of the LCG group, and will have to live with the results of the Super Tower application. Even if you are extrememly optimistic, the Super Tower is at least 12-18 months away and probably longer. Unless KUSA suddently has a change of heart, that is as soon as you will see any OTA NBC here as well.

I got a reply from KTVD-20. Apparently even though they are currently broadcasting from Mt. Morrison, they were planning to move their HD signal to Lookout. This is what is holding them up. I wonder why they want to move to Lookout considering all of the problems there. If I were them, I would want to stay as far away from Lookout mt as possible.

So I guess we'll see them online sometime in the next 5 years or so!

- Dustin

Originally posted by JMartinko
Unless KUSA suddently has a change of heart, that is as soon as you will see any OTA NBC here as well.

Speaking of NBC HD, while I've had access to virtually all the Network HD programming thats available anywhere (not to mention HBO, Showtime and HDNet), and in most cases more than 1 feed (CBS from N.Y., Boston, Seattle, Denver; ABC Boston, Denver; PBS Denver, Boston etc..which makes it great for timeshifting) the one Network thats always eluded me has been NBC, and thus Leno in HD.

Until last night that is. Once again it's via Boston, and thus no thanks to KUSA.

I don't understand why KUSA does not just want to put a low power antenna up on top of Republic Plaza or something. If KCNC, KMGH, and KRMA can do it then certainly the powerhouse KUSA could. I'd say that they are probably the most watched station in Colorado and have more money than anyone.

On the other hand, it does not seem like NBC as a network is behind HD that much either. That may be part of the thinking, especially since Leno and selected sporting events are the only thing that NBC even does as HD.

Just a quick update: I am now picking up all Denver OTA DT channels with a CM StealthTenna rigged up in my basement. I am hoping that I might have a shot at getting KMGH when I install it up in the attic, but with 20 mile distance to downtown from my house I might need a more powerful antenna or amp to pull in the weak signal.

KWGN is not part of the LCG and if they have the option to do H/DTV from their current facilities it would be far cheaper, and faster, to upgrade their current facilities than build a new one somewhere else. I understand their comment about "running at reduced power levels at times". The PSCo Electric bill is not insignificant for a high power transmitter (several hundred thousand/year) and if they can reduce operating costs it makes the transition a bit more palatible....

As to KUSA, well, they don't have much HD content (as pointed out) and they can "get away" without spending money on a Low Power facility. 9News does NOT care.....To hell with them.

The Soundtrack TV repairman just left and has to order parts (2 PCB's). It will be another 1-2 weeks before I can watch HDTV.....waahhhh....On the other hand I tried CH35 last night and only had a 24 signal level, which isn't enough for a picture. I guess I will have to dance around intermittent reception until Lookout comes online.

Somedays I feel like the high tech world is passing me by. The H/DTV situation coupled with no broadband Internet access in my area (the best I can do is 28.8) makes me wonder why I don't move to a progressive, forward thinking, community.....

I'll stop whining now.

Originally posted by Geof

Somedays I feel like the high tech world is passing me by. The H/DTV situation coupled with no broadband Internet access in my area (the best I can do is 28.8) makes me wonder why I don't move to a progressive, forward thinking, community.....

I'll stop whining now.

I hear ya there Geof. Back in '94 we built a beautiful mtn contemporary up in Deer Creek Canyon..5 acres, views to die for..etc etc. But after awhile (bout 5 years) the wife decided she didnt like the commute anymore, especially those last 5 or 6 miles beyond the Lockheed turnoff when the weather was bad.

Now moving back down to the burbs didnt entirely thrill *me*. But I looked at the positives which admittedly included things like DSL and yes, even the notion of dtv signals when even back then it was easy to see that we all we're going to have a long term problem in this town.

Oh, that and not having to drive at least 20 minutes for a gallon of milk, the fact that when it snows, it snows twice as much up there, and finally that well, the last mile and half up to the house was gravel road which never really suited me to begin with since I'm a Corvette kinda guy..and not a cowboy :).

How can KWGN just put up a new antenna (on their existing tower) and just start transmitting full power HDTV? Don't they have to get permission from JeffCo to increase radiation levels in the area?

I guess i don't quite understand JeffCo's 'zoning'? Is it that if it's zoned 'commercial' they can do whatever they want without permission? And if it's zoned 'residential', they have to get permission to change a light bulb?

Knowing that they won't get any WB network HD (yet), I hope that KWGN will at least provide a clean upconverted SD feed and maybe some movies in HD.

I'm all for them, but knowing (S)care, i bet they'll just flip out at this.

I haven't posted here for a while, but I thought I would let everyone know that I just got off the phone with John Hirsch, the Programming Manager at KDVR. I asked him whether we would be seeing the SB here in Denver in the widescreen format. He told me that they were working on it, but he wouldn't know for sure until the week of the game. He asked me to call back then. I also talked to a Mike in engineering last week and he told me that they were trying, but he didn't feel very optimistic about getting the proper equipment in on time. He was the person who gave me John's name as a contact. I would urge everyone here to make a phone call to KDVR and either ask to speak with John or else ask to speak with someone in engineering. I think this is the only way for them to see how many of us here in Denver have HD receivers.

Wow! That's the first bit of positive news we've heard from the KDVR front in a long time. I'm not getting my hopes up, but at least it sounds like there is a possibility that KDVR may one day pass the real 16x9 feed.

Anyone have email addresses for John or Mike? Deluging them with phone calls may just take time away from them getting the equipment in place and operational I would think.

It's been awhile since I toured the KDVR studio but I was thinking they already had the capaibility to broadcast 16x9. As I recall they did not have the capability to time shift or to deal with DD. I think they were also lacking a way to insert their local commercials into the digital stream and that may be the hang-up now since we could live without DD and there is no need to timeshift. If they have equipment on order perhaps they will be able to overcome these obstacles (hopefully in time for the SB) and we'll begin to see Fox 16x9 programs being broadcast as 16x9 and not the funky 14x9.

I hear ya on the mtn situation Dan. What's frustrating is that the whole neighborhood is wired with Fiber. I can get digital cable (no HD though) but not cable modem....

Thanks for the update ck, appreciate it.

Far as them getting the equipment on time, they sound like me when it comes to xmas shopping. I could have easily bought gifts at any time in the year leading up to it, but yet I always seem to wait til Dec. 24th!

Or, maybe they'll just put on a big time Super Bowl bash at the studio for their digital viewers...all 25 of us.. and watch the 480p feed on their monitors. That'd prolly be cheaper than the equipment they're waiting on anyway. ;)

Anyway, seriously I hope they can get the pieces in place. Not only for the game, but for future considerations also.

I am also hoping KDVR Fox will get this working for the Super Bowl. I was wanting to have a SB party to demo the new Pioneer Elite to friends. Would be nice to see it happen in 480p and 16X9.

So if anyone from KDVR is listening, please get us 480p and 16X9 for the SB!

- Dustin

Is anyone having trouble locking up on KRMA tonight. I show the same signal level as usual, but both my UM and my Zenith OTA receivers are having trouble staying locked. I have no trouble on KCNC and KDVR so I know it not my setup. I also know I am on the fringes of KRMA so it might be possible they are running at a slightly reduced power, although my receiver doesn't indicate that.

It looks like KRMA is currently down. The signal strength is wavering all over the place from --- to 90 and can't get a lock here in Thornton.

Gotta go... Jag is starting on KCNC-DT.

Don

Same thing here. KRMA is off the air. First I thought it was my antenna, but KCNC and KDVR are coming in fine.

- Dustin

Don and Dustin, thanks for the reports. I was pretty sure it wasn't my setup since I tried two different OTA receivers and still got KCNC. I am on the outer edge of the reception area, so I wasn't sure if it might be that my antenna was mispointed due to some of the recent winds. It doesn't take much for me to lose their signal here. I will assume they are aware of the problems so I won't bug them unless it is still a problem on Monday.

I have been watching The Tonight Show in HDTV for the first time on my Bell ExpressVu.

I like it. However, I was not able to watch 9News at 10 on KUSA.

If KUSA set up a low power HDTV digital trtansmitter, I would be able to watch The Tonight Show in KUSA-DT.

KUSA has lost a viewer for Jay Leno.

Thanatos wrote:
If you are interested in seeing what the Denver Broadcasters are up against, and you have access to Dish Network, Tune to Channel 9514 (FSTV) and watch their documentary called "Lookout Mountain".. It is pretty much a one sided discussion on the issues of placing the HDTV "SuperTower" on Lookout Mountain.

How do you get 9514? Is that on the 61.5 Bird? Some of us can only see the 148.

I think FSTV is on 9415 (he got some numbers reversed) on the 110 bird. So you should be able to see it.

What's wrong with KCNC-DT 35 sound? Ever since they got most of the bugs out of the transmission, the sound has been very strange. The center channel sounds like a cross between out of phase and some sort of electronic processing. I finally had a chance to A/B it yesterday against the Dish CBSHD feed of the Patriots/Oakland game. The Dish feed was in DD2.0 vs KCNCs DD5.1. Dish has very clear, upfront, normal sounding center channel dialog. The sound from KCNC was definitely wrong.

Has anyone else with a good sound system noticed this? Anyone talked to engineering at KCNC about it?

John Tyson
Wheat Ridge

Unfortunately the sound has always been messed up with KCNC.
If you have the ability change the audio stream on your stb to use the PCM mode not Dolby Digital then everything should sound correct. Mine works great when I do this on my DTC-100

Hope this helps
Keith

I'm not sure if anyones actually talked to them about it, but I think they were at least for a time monitoring this thread for feed back.

I too dont understand why their encoder is always set to 5.1 My workaround for the time being on my 6000 was to connect the L/R analog audio outputs to my receiver and then put my receiver in analog mode when watching that channel. That gives me proper center/surround activity in Pro Logic at least. Without having to go 3 or 4 menus deep on the 6000 to change it from DD to PCM everytime I tune to 35.

I emailed KCNC to the attention of David Layne about the sound problem and have not received a response yet. If anyone else has any luck, please let us know.

thanks,
Dustin

Anyone watch Alias tonight on 17? It looked to me like KMGH was having some problems tonight either with their equipment or with the ABC feed. For the first half hour, every 2 or 3 minutes the video would cut out completely to black for a second or so, then come back. Sound popped all over the place - especially during the commercials. And there was a very strange box shape on the top left 1/6 of the screen - very noticible when the background was light. The last half hour the video drops didn't happen, but the audio popping and the box still was. Hmmm...a box in the picture, The Box was the title...

Lucky for them only 7 people can pick up their signal. Maybe that's why they are in no hurry to make it available to the general public.
:mad:

I noticed a few second long droppouts during the first half hour of Alias. Overall it was very watchable. Good episode too.
Funny, I watched(or half watched) the The Education of Max Bickford. The Picture quality of Alias was noticably better than Max Bickford. So, 1080i isn't always better than 720P. I'll agree that 1080i is capable of looking better than my upconverted 720P. My nod for best picture quality goes to Smart Traveler's and CSI.

Favortie HD programs:
Smart Traveler's- i think I've seen them all at least 3 times
Alias
NYPD Blue-my first primetime show in HD.
My Wife and Kids
CSI

Notice most of my favorite shows are ABC. That's because I started watching them first in HD.

DTC-100
Mits WS-55857
DVDO Iscan V2
Denon AVR-3300

17.1-51%,18.1-88%,32.1-91%,35.1-88%

Greg -

Try out The Agency right after CSI on Thursdays and The District on Saturday nights. I've found that those 2 shows look almost as good as CSI most of the time (and sometimes better as was the case last week). I agree that ABC can look very good with Alias and NYPD Blue, although I thought that Alias last night was significantly grainier than it has been in the past. Plus the picture dropouts were annoying.

You may want to contribute to the PBS HDTV Survey. Details can be found here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106631).

Geof
Thanks for the 'heads up' on the survey. I recommend it to everyone reading the thread.

Geof,

I agree. Thanks for the heads up.
Hope everyone here indicates that James Morgeses has been EXTREMELY HELPFUL to our efforts.

Thanks,
Jeff

I agree with Jeff. I should have mentioned it in my post. I made some very positive comments about KRMA in my survey and pointed out that they were the only ones in Denver pushing HD for the last few years. They even brought us the Super Bowl in HD last year. I would recommend that others taking the survey also make some positive comments about KRMA.

I also filled out the survey. I have to say that I have been pretty impressed by PBS's (namely KRMA here locally) support of HD programming. I never really watched PBS before, but their Smart Travel series is really amazing. I watched the one on Venice the other nice and it was almost like being there.

I know this question has probably been answered before and I apologize in advance, but I could not find the answer in a search. It relates to Lookout Mountain and the sCARE group.
Recently I was talking with a friend who lives up in Morrison technically, but closer to Gennesee. He is very knowledgeable in this field when it comes to transmitting audio/video over the airwaves, through wireless transmitters, etc. He is also aware of the CARE group and is not very happy with them. Apparently his home owners group threw in some of their money to support CARE lawyers, etc. without consulting the home owners themselves. Anyway he was saying that when he last went by Lookout Mtn. this past summer, that there seemed to be alot of UHF transmitting antennas hanging off of the local stations towers up there, more than what is being broadcast now. He ,as well as myself, was wondering why the locals even needed to build one large high power tower to transmit from. He thinks there enough UHF antennas to start now. Why couldn't they just broadcast off their current towers? Or is it that CARE is saying 'no' to not just the new tower, but also any high power transmitting period?
We both agree however, that all those people up by Lookout Mtn. are doing more damage to themselves with pagers, cell phones and cordless phones regardless of what's being transmitted from the mountain.

Ernie mentioned that Free Speech channel on Dish Network the other day, and while I was verifying the channel number and I went ahead and tuned to it and that documentary on Lookouts tower issue was on. Thats some "scarey" stuff.. no pun intended. Certainly not because any of it was news (since it's a year or 2 old I'm guessing) but just in the seemingly unwavering resolve of those folks up there. Almost enough to make you ill kind of..but then again, the last thing I am is a compassionate person to begin with.

Point being it's always been one thing to just talk about it here, but it was kind of another when actually being able to put faces with some of the names I'd read about. Suffice it to say after watching something like that, which albeit had some lawyers speaking on the behalf of the LCG as well, I came away feeling that it's going to be even longer than I might ever have imagined previously, before this town ever has anything resembling full power dtv.

Keith
The current zoning laws covering the Lookout transmitters require any new plans submitted for new transmitters to give consideration to consolidations which would reduce the number of towers on Lookout. That was a primary reason the LCG group was formed. For that reason, as well as the complaints of the (S)CARE group, Jeffco would never approve an application for single new transmitters on existing structures. The KCNC low power signal transmitter originally was proposed to be from the backup transmitter tower belonging to KCNC. The low power application was even rejected (although KCNC has appealed) on the grounds that the tower and antenna were not currently being used and had not been used in the last two (?there was a time limit on how long it could have been dormant, I forget the limit) years and therefore could not be used for any new transmission. Existing transmitters are grandfather-ed, the restrictions are against new transmitters. The entire issue is, of course, very complex, and probably only the lawyers involved really understand all the zoning nuances. Any new transmitters in the residential zoned areas on Lookout would have to be consolidated according to the regulations, and (S)CARE is fighting that primarily on their 'theory' that although it has never been shown that RF radiation at the proposed levels is dangerous, they believe further studies are needed. Of course the fact that those requested studies would require a period of time which would extend beyond 2006 and the required startup of DTV transmitters is 'purely coincidental' (or so they claim).

Why couldn't they just broadcast off their current towers?

The short (quick) answer is that the stations would have to modify their towers to add the digital stuff and that means getting approval from JeffCo. Their facilities are on property which is not zoned properly. Since they were grand-fathered in they can continue to operate as-is but if they wish to change something they have to get JeffCo approval but they cannot get JeffCo approval unless the property is re-zoned. Getting the property re-zoned is what all the fuss is about.....

I doubt that any of the existing UHF antennas are going unused or (if they are) are suitable for HDTV in the frequency range the stations have been assigned.

Their facilities are on property which is not zoned properly. Since they were grand-fathered in they can continue to operate as-is but if they wish to change something they have to get JeffCo approval but they cannot get JeffCo approval unless the property is re-zoned.

Geof,

We've mentioned in this tread that they might/could in 2006 drop their NTSC VHF completely and make the change to Digital without JeffCo approval.

Do you you think this is really possible?

KRMA still having problems? I know they were down on Friday or Saturday, and I've tuned in a few times since then, but the picture is pixellating so badly it's hard to watch. I was psyched to be home tonight in time to watch Smart Travels, and it was on, but the signal was more pixels than picture - kind of like KCNC had the 1st day of testing. Anyone else?

Mark
I still show the pixellization tonight on KRMA too. I checked a couple of times over the weekend and it seemed fine when I looked, although I didn't watch anything through, so it may have just been the luck of when I checked.

Santllavision
It is certainly 'possible' for the stations to switch over at some point, but it would go against the FCC concept of a smoothe transition, as the analog would suddenly disappear from everyone who does not have an HD set. I think that would be a VERY LAST resort for them. I wouldn't expect to see that unless they continue to hit a brick wall on every front.

Geof
Thanks for helping with the clarification on the subject. I probably should have spent more time on my reply to make it clear, but we have covered this ground a lot. Although the issues are really NIMBY's trying to increase their property values, from a legal standpoint, it all has to do with zoning, as that is how (S)CARE is trying to get all fo the towers off of Lookout.

Mark - yes, KRMA is still hosed.

Ernie,
I probably over-simplified the issue a bit but I have been told they (KCNC) would switch over their existing facilities rather than move to Eldorado. I think they could replace the Ch 4 antenna with a Ch 35 antenna far easier than they could get both antennas approved.
Then again, the FCC says they want one of the spectrum allocations back - not necessarily the current NTSC frequency. In other words KCNC could elect to stay on Ch 4 and give back Ch 35 (broadcasting digitally on Ch 4). This is not real likely because the low VHF band (Ch 2 thru 6) isn't ideal for ATSC signals but push come to shove they could stay on 4 and change some equipment inside their bldg and be set to go on Ch 4. I don't think JeffCo or (S)CARE could stop this. As JM points out though, this is a likely the last resort and would upset many Front Range viewers.

The issue remains one of zoning though - that's why KDVR is on the air now (their property is zoned differently). I am unsure of the zoning for Ch 2 or 20 but 4, 6, 7, & 9 all have zoning problems. I think Ch 20 joined the LCG because they will be DT Ch 19 and there was a desire to have Ch's 16 (KUSA) 17, 18 & 19 co-located to minimize interference issues (and Ch 35 has the property upon which they wish to build.....)

Thanks everyone for your response. I know this has been a long running thread, just didn't think to search for 'zoning'. So it is possible that all the towers could be forced off the mountain, if Jeffco really pushed it?

The towers could not be pushed off of Lookout since they are grandfather-ed. Only new towers could be pushed off. Jeffco cannot push new towers off unless they provide an alternative site. That is why Pinnacle hoped to get approval for Eldorado. As you know, that application was not approved. One Jeffco commissioner has stated they do want to put the towers on Lookout. The devil is in the details as the (S)CARE folks will fight anything that goes against any existing zoning laws. The FCC could ultimately over rule Jeffco and force the towers on Lookout if Jeffco did not provide any satisfactory alternatives, but they are NOT anxious to get involved in this mess. I believe KWGN is like KDVR in that it is not zoned to prevent new towers. I am not sure, but their property is either more than 5 acres, or it was not rezoned residential when the other sites were. KWGN is not required to even be on the air before May, and they are not in a hurry. The rule KDVR fell under was that they had more than 5 acres of land and did not need approval for the new tower. (S)CARE is arguing the KDVR land is only 4.6 acres and that rule shouldn't apply, but so far Jeffco has let KDVR go. The reality is the towers will most likely end up on Lookout, but do to the hostile nature of the (S)CARE group, it will not be any time soon. There just aren't any alternative sites that could service as many people as Lookout, that is why it was chosen in the first place back in the fifties.

Received my 8VSB module yesterday, installed it in the 6000 last night. A great circle calculation shows my house to be 49.74 miles from Republic Plaza. I ran the scan and pulled in KDVR at about 82% (from Lookout) and surprisingly, KRMA at about 72% (from Republic, I believe?). Lots of artifacts on KRMA, but I understand they are having a problem right now. No sign of any other DTV signals. These results came from a 6-7 year old mid-range VHF/UHF Winegard antenna on my roof, running through a RS amp and a 1:8 splitter. I can hardly wait to do some optimization.

Congrat's Malcolm

If you're getting KRMA at 72 you may be able to get KCNC with some tweaking. I suggest you start by temporarily removing the splitter (an 8 way splitter has a lot of loss) and maybe even the amp (do one thing at a time). The KCNC antenna is setup to put out max power towards Boulder so I do not know what that means for Loveland but with a bit of luck you'll get it....

Originally posted by JMartinko
The towers could not be pushed off of Lookout since they are grandfather-ed. Only new towers could be pushed off. Jeffco cannot push new towers off unless they provide an alternative site.

As I understand it, Jefferson County could come up with an amortization plan to remove all non-conforming towers if they wished to. Of course it would be challenged in court, but more than likely, Jeffco would win. (The same type of amortization schedule has been done with billboards.)
Also, there is no local, state or national requirement for Jeffco to provide a place for these towers. If the FCC tries to supersede the local zoning, it would more than likely end up in the supreme court. On Jeffco's side would be most state and local governments that are opposed to federal control of local land use. Just look at the comments filed with the FCC from other government agencies when the LCG asked the FCC to pre-empt the Jeffco zoning.

That being said, the best solution would be a good proposal that would satisfy the needs of the broadcasters and the requirements of Jefferson County. Hopefully the next application for the LCG will do that.

-Wabisabi

That being said, the best solution would be a good proposal that would satisfy the needs of the broadcasters and the requirements of Jefferson County. Hopefully the next application for the LCG will do that.

With that I think we all agree. The only thing I'll add is I hope they do this sooner rather than later....

I wouldn't't be so sure that Jeffco could win in court if they tried an amortization plan. The towers were built and in place before the land was zoned residential, and many of the applicable residential zoning laws were not even passed until the early 90's. I will concede though, that lawyers in court rooms can often find strange kinds of 'justice' for the right price. Jeffco is obviously not required to provide a place for the towers, it is more that they are 'stuck' with the existing ones. I am quite sure they would be thrilled if some other county could take them.

I think you are right about the FCC superseding the local zoning ending up in the supreme court. They have always claimed they have the power and often used it to strong arm communities, but as I understand they have never actually used the power. One of the major reasons I believe they will never intervene here in Colorado in that they do not want the power tested in the courts. I don't think even the FCC is sure it would stand up.

All that being said, I do believe Jeffco is willing to work with the LCG for a single tower, since it would look a lot less unsightly than what they now have. I also think they would rather not have both analog and digital transmitters on at the same time, and are likely to stall the digital as much as they can. With (S)CARE on their backs though, any application must be 'air tight' in order to stand up to the (S)CARE scrutiny. Otherwise Jeffco is left explaining to (S)CARE (some of whom might even vote) exactly why they ignored Jeffco laws and allowed the new tower. They are obviously not about to do that just to make a few hundred HDTV viewer in the Denver area happy. Maybe when there are thousands of us (especially viewers who live in Jeffco and vote) they will see the 'need for speed'.

I am contemplating another letter to the FCC (with copies to the LCG stations) regarding our situation here in Denver. I am growing increasingly concerned that the Low Power setup will take some pressure off of KCNC to pursue the final solution; I am concerned that KMGH is skating by with their very low power setup that has more "PR" value than actual value; I am concerned that KUSA continues to ignore the whole situation by refusing to even implement H/DTV broadcasting in any form whatsoever; I am concerned that no new plan has been forthcoming from the LCG with regards to Lookout (or anywhere else for that matter);and I am concerned that our other stations (notably Ch 2 and Ch 20) will not meet the May deadline.

I think the letter should include some sort of timeline of events to date and I'm seeking help on arriving at some of the more prominent dates. Specifically, if anyone knows the month and year of the following events could you please post them. Here they are:

-> When did the LCG submit their first plan to JeffCo?
-> When did JeffCo finally rule on this plan?
-> When did the LCG file the lawsuit against JeffCo regarding their rejection of the LCG plan?
-> When did the LCG drop the lawsuit against JeffCo?
-> When did KRMA get on the air with their Low Power Setup?
-> When did KMGH get on the air with their Low Power Setup?
-> (KCNC obviously got on the air with their Low Power Setup in Dec 01).

I thought an outline of the timeline of events I listed above would clearly show that little or no apparent progress has been made towards the final solution (i.e., I think it's coming up on a year or so since the LCG dropped the lawsuit but they haven't submitted any new plan yet).

I realize that submitting a well conceived "bullet-proof" plan takes time and that the KRMA Morrison situation may complicate the LCG plan. I also realize that there may be some "behind the scenes" discussions taking place between JeffCo and the LCG. However, we have no evidence (other than hearsay) that a new plan is in the works and we certainly do not know when such a plan may be ready to go.

I do not think a letter to the FCC at this time is inappropriate, nor detrimental, to anything that may or may not be happening in the background. That said, I am not at all convinced that a letter will do any good, but I don't see how it could hurt. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, so to speak. If anyone has a rationale argument why this could be a bad thing please post it. Otherwise I will press forward. As always, there would be much value added if others join in and write the FCC as well. I believe it is in our best interests if our voices are heard (again) to let everyone know that we are not satisfied with the status-quo and (politely) demand that this process be continued until a satisfactory resolution is achieved.

I intend to post my letter in this forum for all to read (and to use in part or in whole) to encourage others to join with a letter writing campaign. I will also post the names and addresses where we should mail said letters.

Thoughts?

This is a note to all of the KRMA viewers. I was still seeing the pixelization and freeze problems last night so I dropped a note to Bud Rath at KRMA to make sure he was aware of the problems. Here is his reply.

**********
Hi John. Yes we are aware of the problems are are trouble shooting as we speak.
Please pass the word on that we know about the issues and are dealing with
them. Hope to restore normal operation within a day or two.

Thanks for letting me know!

Regards,

Bud Rath
Director, Network Engineering

**********
Sounds like they are aware of the problem.


Geof
I don't have the answers to your question at my fingertips but would suggest the (S)CARE web page as a place to start. They have a section which gives the history of the Lookout towers. Since they are the ones who have caused a lot of the delay, I think it would be a nice gesture to use their own published data to argue against them with the FCC. I do agree it may be about time to start another campaign for letters to the FCC with copies sent to Jeffco Commissioners. If you want I can send you a copy of my first letter to the FCC from Aug, 2000, which had some of that information in it, but as I recall, your first letter was the inspiration and source of much of that information for many of us. If you don't have a copy of your first letter, I am pretty sure I still have a soft copy of mine I could email you.

I think we should try to get any new information on the status of the new LCG application before we submit a letter, so the 'complaints' or comments can be focused in the best possible way. We have been hearing that the new submittal would be in January, and the rumor mill has it that there will indeed be news on that front soon. It might be good to start preparing some letters, but I think we should hold mailing anything for a week or two in order to see what will happen with that application before we complain about it.

Hi all,
I just read an article in Westword.
Westword (http://www.westword.com/issues/2002-01-24/message.html/1/index.html)

It might be of interest to you.

-Wabisabi

Thanks Wabisabi for the link. And the "good" news is that they'll be able to run the same piece a year from now probably, without having to change any of it. ;)

And Geof, as to a couple of those dates you were looking for, I believe KRMA came on board digitally around the middle of December in '99 and KMGH must have been around that time frame too I believe. Jeffden will know I'm sure because he mentions having watched the ABC Super Bowl that season in HD.

Wabisabi
Thanks for the post on the article. DP1 is right, I would guess the situation will likely be about the same a year from now. The article was pretty thorough in that the author seems to have talked to everyone involved except the viewers. Perhaps some emails to him with our opinions would be useful.

Thanks for the link Wabisabi.

I found this quote interesting:
Fred Niehaus, a consultant and spokesman for the group, says the focus now is on a new tower proposition to be unveiled sometime this spring.

Emphasis mine....

I guess we shouldn't expect "Plan B" in the next couple of months....

I received this from David Layne at KCNC regarding the DD 5.1 issues on KCNC-DT:

Dustin - transmitting HD audio was a surprisingly big challenge. Lip-sync issues, 5.1, 2.0, etc., should all have been relatively simple issues compared to handling the 1080i HD signal and specifically doing HD net delays. As you have well noted - we're struggling right now with digital audio on the HD channel.

What tuned out to be difficult was made even harder by the fact that nearly all of our digital audio monitoring equipment had to be returned to vendors for various specification performance issues, and at the same time, we were redesigning portions of our core digital HD audio distribution system. For a short period of time we were left with very simple monitors and reliance on groups like the AVS Forum for feed back.

At this point I believe we have made measurable progress in retiming digital audio and video paths. I hope by the end of the week to have the 5.1 pilot turned off and 2.0 audio coming out the antenna.

We appreciate your feedback and patience. This has been a fun, but, I want it right real soon.

Dave Layne
Director of Operations and Engineering
KCNC-TV

- Dustin

Thanks Dustin.

I need to ask David what the status on PSIP info and program data is for the DirecTv HD receivers with the Advanced Program Guide. It's not yet remapping 35.1 to 4.1 (to their analog channel number as the other local stations do), nor are there any program listings at this time yet either.

Not that either one really matters all that much, other than to be "tidy" :)

I sent an email to Michael Roberts, the Westword writer. I mentioned to him that KDVR can't show anything in HD, blah, blah, blah.

I told him about Fox Net originating the SB in 480p 16:9, but KDVR not having the equipment to pass through the progressive signal. He emailed me back that he got the bogus info directly from Fox Network.

Kinda scary to see that FOX Net's PR dept doesn't know what their talking about and think that 480p is Hi-Def!

With all this letter writing and cajoling, etc. to those in decision making positions at the TV stations, JeffCo, etc. I hope you guys in Denver don't forget your home theater brothers in Northern Colorado during these discussions.

There is no real solution IMHO until everyone can get the full HDTV (and digital EDTV; darn you Fox!) broadcast line up with a clear signal too.

Dan

There is no real solution IMHO until everyone can get the full HDTV

No question about that. I encourage everyone, especially those outside of the range of the low power signal, to write and voice your opinion.

Geof, For KMGH, they started in the Fall of 99, but unfortunately I don't remember the exact month. They did show some MNF games that year prior to the Super Bowl, but it could have been October or November, I don't recall. I got my DTC100 in late November that year and they were already on the air. Sorry I don't have more specific info.

Maybe just write that they came on line with their extremely low power signal in the Fall of 99. :)

Jeff

According to an email update from Mr Morgese it looks as if the timeline for a new LCG tower application to come before JeffCo is after the summer.

Does anyone else sense 2004 for a "no earlier than" date for full power????

PS: I did not post Mr Morgese's email because he made no mention that it was okay to do so. In that vein I will not post it. One other tidbit is they (KRMA) are going forward with the Mt Morrison proposal (as mentioned in the Westword article) and he was soliciting JeffCo residents. If you live in JeffCo and wish to support the KRMA application please send him an email (Jmorgese51@aol.com).

Does anyone know of an official Denver area HDTV users group?

If not, somebody should start one!

With all of the great participation on this forum, it would be great to have something like this that maybe could be sponsored by one of the HD friendly stations such as KRMA or KCNC where presentations could be made by engineers such as what the station is doing, status on tower progress, and presentations from HD enthusiasts about antennas, STB's, projection equipment, etc.

- Dustin

Originally posted by Geof
According to an email update from Mr Morgese it looks as if the timeline for a new LCG tower application to come before JeffCo is after the summer.

Does anyone else sense 2004 for a "no earlier than" date for full power????


Well so much for the "January Application Timeline". I guess you are right, it sounds like time to start those letters to the FCC again. I wish I felt like that would do any good. I think the whole thing is being stalled as long as possible to avoid any overlap with the analog signals in order to minimize the impact of the (S)CARE complaints about the combined RF levels.

It is certainly safe to say at this point that the only people whose interests are not being served here are the potential HD viewers. Jeffco is happy, (S)CARE is happy, the LCG stations are happy to save the money till later. The only ones getting screwed are the people donating the free airwaves and waiting to watch HD. The only media coverage we seem to get is an occasional article about organizations fighting to keep towers out of their neighborhoods. There are never any articles about people wanting access to HD television. The LCG network stations apparently will never advertise the story or talk about HD out of fear of people finding out they should be able to get it. I am still amazed there are not more complaints from people like Listen Up, Soundtrack etc. All they are getting these days in the big sets are HD sets, and they obviously have no chance of selling very many until there is something to watch. This whole thing is starting to stink all over again.


:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Originally posted by JMartinko


I am still amazed there are not more complaints from people like Listen Up, Soundtrack etc. All they are getting these days in the big sets are HD sets, and they obviously have no chance of selling very many until there is something to watch.


Well you'd think that would be the case, yeah. But then again even nationwide the number of digital sets sold far far exceeds the number of digital tuners sold by like 5 or 6 to 1. So they're probably selling their fair share of the sets regardless.

Apparently not alot of people are willing to drop another 600 for a tuner even if they buy the set... even if they live in areas where theres more digital activity.

I find the whole issue ugly and distasteful. I also find it highly ironic that the sole GM who keeps pushing the process forward works for PBS - those stations don't have to be on-air for another year yet it's possible that KRMA will beat everyone (except KDVR which doesn't really count because of their aspect ratio and affiliation with Fox).

LU and Soundtrack all have satellite access to demo HD (and LU in Denver was showing a lot of KRMA stuff when I was shopping around). Dan is right with the receiver sales figures though. I think a lot of folks are buying widescreen sets because of DVD's (and that was my initial reason - the STB came months later).

As to and HDTV club, I do not know of one. This forum is where all the information and knowledge is disseminated. I don't know if we could accomplish anymore by meeting somewhere but I'm open to the idea.

Originally posted by DP1


Well you'd think that would be the case, yeah. But then again even nationwide the number of digital sets sold far far exceeds the number of digital tuners sold by like 5 or 6 to 1. So they're probably selling their fair share of the sets regardless.

Apparently not alot of people are willing to drop another 600 for a tuner even if they buy the set... even if they live in areas where theres more digital activity.

That may be true so far, but since NBC is rumored to be going mostly HD later this year, and ABC and CBS already are. Nationwide, most stores have at least the prospect of a significant increase in sales in the next couple of years. Here in Denver the stores are not going to sell any number of sets until well into 2004 after people finally get a chance to see it. What about areas like Ft. Collins, etc. Stores in those areas are in even worse shape than the ones in south Denver. The sales in these stores locally is bound to be far behind their counterparts in nearly every part of the country. Heck, even in Cheyenne and Pueblo, and my birthplace Canon City, the stores will have a better chance of making a sale over the next 2 years.

and my birthplace Canon City, the stores will have a better chance of making a sale over the next 2 years.

Damn those inmates...:)

Those inmates are likely to be watching OTA HD before most of us. Don't forget, they did let me get out of town.

Originally posted by Geof

As to and HDTV club, I do not know of one. This forum is where all the information and knowledge is disseminated. I don't know if we could accomplish anymore by meeting somewhere but I'm open to the idea.

If others on the forum think its a good idea, I'd be open to assist in getting one going. I haven't been involved in the local 'HD scene' as long as you guys, but have been increasingly interested in the topic.

The advantage to meeting in person would be if we could obtain a sponsor such as David Layne from KCNC or James Morgese from KRMA that might be able to help facilitate discussions with engineers and those familar with the local HD situtation. Again, that is if these folks would be willing to share their knowledge and more importantly, time.

- Dustin

I just spoke with David Layne at KCNC. He informs me that the DD 5.1 pilot signal should be turned off. Can some of you take a look at KCNC-DT and let me know if you are now seeing DD 2.0 coming from KCNC-DT and I'll report back to David our results?

thanks,
Dustin

I would be more supportive of an HDTV club if we could have a meeting and invite the local media (i.e. newspapers, since we know the networks wouldn't show up) and try to get publicity for the fact that Denver is 'dead last' in the technology, and there are more than 10 people that care. If we could have the LCG send someone to describe the details of the SuperTower application it would be a great place to start, but given the reluctance of the LCG to publicize anything, It would also be neat to have representative of Listen Up, Soundtrack, etc. there to complain about the problem too. I am not sure we could pull that one off.

Yes Dustin, it's fixed. Cool. Now when you talk to him again dont forget to ask about remapping and program listings for the DirecTv boxes with the Advanced Program Guide..like your Panny has. :)

I'd definitely be interested in some sort of users group. I haven't had a chance to see anything in 720p -- it would be cool if ABC would let us in to watch something and then discuss how cool it would be if those of us outside of the lucky 7 club could get the signal at our homes. I also haven't had the fortune of being able to watch any PBS, and from what I hear, they're putting out some of the best OTA HD out there.

Or maybe we could all meet at the new Fox building to see how cool 14:9 looks on their plasma lobby monitors:rolleyes:

Dan- I'll ask Dave about the APG information for KCNC. I am curious about this as well, as I would like to see KCNC-DT listed in the guide. Even Titan TV does not have KCNC-DT programming info listed other than them just listed as a channel.

The HD users group would be cool if we could get sponsorship. I'll mention this idea to David Layne and see if he might be interested in this. Maybe we could even meet there.

On another note, I sent a feedback into KMGH about their low power (extremely!) signal to see if they had any plans to change their lower power antenna to make it more accessible. Here is the reply that I received:

Dear Mr. Smith,

LCG plans to go back to the County very soon, perhaps by the 1st of
February. There is no plan to relocate our digital signal at this point.
We will certainly review this depending on the outcome of a proposal to the
County.

Thanks

Rick Craddock
Denver's 7
KMGH - TV
303-832-0180

Curious that he mentions he says they plan to go back to Jeffco that soon..

- Dustin

Originally posted by smithdzd


Curious that he mentions he says they plan to go back to Jeffco that soon..

- Dustin

As I had previously understood the situation, I believe the LCG will be submitting their new proposal soon (I had also heard by the end of Jan.) but Jeffco will take at least the 'usual' six months or so to review the application and will not hold a hearing until the summer. If that is the case, it will be interesting to see if the LCG will mount a PR campaign to let the public know about the new design and that it will be 'safe' and 'comply' with all existing Jeffco regulations. It would be nice if they would do that before the (S)CARE PR machine cranks up the opposition based upon some fictitious or speculative RF power flux density number they generate and couple that with their claim the radiation causes a 'lack of sleep'. Not sure what it would take to get Jeffco to speed up their own process, but I am quite sure it would take pressure from people in Jeffco who actually vote for the commissioners. That leaves me SOL on that issue.

Originally posted by dr_mal
I'd definitely be interested in some sort of users group. I haven't had a chance to see anything in 720p -- it would be cool if ABC would let us in to watch something and then discuss how cool it would be if those of us outside of the lucky 7 club could get the signal at our homes. I also haven't had the fortune of being able to watch any PBS, and from what I hear, they're putting out some of the best OTA HD out there.


Hahaha, Lucky 7 Club..I like that! Course, easy for me to say since I'm one of them.

But just as with Geof for a time, I'm surprised that you cant get KRMA. I take it you're getting at least some signal, enough to rule out any kind of setup issue (like channel remapping from 18 to 80 etc), but not enough to view?

Originally posted by Geof

Somedays I feel like the high tech world is passing me by. The H/DTV situation coupled with no broadband Internet access in my area (the best I can do is 28.8) makes me wonder why I don't move to a progressive, forward thinking, community.....

For broadband internet, you can go the DIRECTWAY bi-directional satellite route
http://www.direcway.com
I'm out in Elizabeth and have their older one-way DirecPC eqpt. Their throughput varies greatly and their customer service stinks -- but it's night and day over std modems!

RonAuger,

Thanks for the info on Directway and welcome to the forum.

I too like Geof cannot get Hi-speed access, but unfortunately Directway is not available for us 'Creative Types' on Mac.

Thanks anyway!!!

Thanks for the info Ron. I had investigated Directway and found the same issue as Ernie - they're not enlightened Mac folk. It's beyond me why they just don't supply a 10bT output and give us an IP or DHCP info...

FYI, There is a wireless ISP in Denver (www.mho.net) that looks interesting. My zip is in their list of available areas and the question is "can I see their tower". I may get them out to do a site survey...

-----

I think I've confused some folk with one of my previous posts: According to an email update from Mr Morgese it looks as if the timeline for a new LCG tower application to come before JeffCo is after the summer.

The way I interpreted the comment was that it would be after summer when JeffCo would vote yeah or nay. That means the proposal would be submitted much earlier (perhaps in the next month or two as eluded to in the Westword article). It's been a busy day so I apologize for not catching this earlier. Nonetheless, it still looks to me like 2004 (maybe late '03) before we get high power....

Given this new info, I don't think a new letter to the FCC is worth a darn at this point in time. If the LCG is close to submission (and I trust Mr. Morgese so I believe it is) then writing the FCC to complain about a lack of action seems fruitless. Therefore I think I'll lay back with my planned letter and see what develops. Also, given this news I would urge JeffCo residents to contact Mr. Morgese to see how they may help with their Mt. Morrison application.

I have asked Mr. Morgese if there is anything non-JeffCo residents could do to help but haven't heard back yet. One thought I had was to try and get a petition (or something similar) going. The petition would simply state something along the lines that the undersigned have a vested interest in seeing the application approved - The idea being to somehow demonstrate that there is a viewer base ready and waiting (mostly waiting). But maybe this is a dumb idea I don't know....

Originally posted by santellavision
RonAuger,

Thanks for the info on Directway and welcome to the forum.

I too like Geof cannot get Hi-speed access, but unfortunately Directway is not available for us 'Creative Types' on Mac.

Thanks anyway!!!

"Creative Types" I like it:D

-Mike (using an ibook with an airport!)

Originally posted by Geof
One thought I had was to try and get a petition (or something similar) going. The petition would simply state something along the lines that the undersigned have a vested interest in seeing the application approved - The idea being to somehow demonstrate that there is a viewer base ready and waiting (mostly waiting). But maybe this is a dumb idea I don't know....

Not a dumb idea at all! But the consideration it gets will be directly proportional to the number of signers on it. I don't know how many DTV evangelists we have out there and how many are on this forum.

Geof,

Being one of the only non-NIMBY/BANANA JeffCo'ers, I contacted Mr. Morgese after your post and he emailed me back saying that he would send out some materials. I'll post the info on what that is when i receive them.

P.S. I'm in for a HD Users Group. It would be great to get together once a month at a HD-friendly station or store to discuss our/their concerns and support each other however we can. 'Ya never know, maybe we can get LU, Soundtrack or The Big Picture interested too, and organize some local group buys?

Originally posted by mknoebel


"Creative Types" I like it:D

-Mike (using an ibook with an airport!)

Hey, I use G4's at home and at work, but sorry to report I already have DSL. My house is a veritable digital data port. Does that make me a 2 bit engineer? (Sorry couldn't resist!)

As for the petition, I think it would be nice if the 20 of us in the forum signed it, but I think it would be a lot more usefull if we could get Listen Up, Soundtrack, Best Buy etc. to keep copies at their stores. They could ask people to sign it as they shop for TV sets (hopefully HD sets). That might be something that the stores would be willing to do if it doesn't violate some company policy.

Regarding getting the hi-def word out to John Q Public ....

I just happen to turn on PBS's show "Hometime" this evening and the entire episode was on receiving DTV and HDTV. It was reasonably good information for mainstream consumption. It's at least a little encouraging seeing some publicity beginning to occur in general media, besides the special interest targeted resources ("Home Theater Mag", HDTVGalaxy). They even mentioned their show was filmed in hi-def, although it is never aired in hi-def!

I'd definitely be up for a users group.

KCNC did get the sound switched to Dolby 2.0 yesterday as previously reported. The 2 CSI's at 7 and 8 were beautiful, and sounded great. The audio was even in sync. But things really fell apart during The Agency. The sound started cutting in and out, and by 9:45 there was so much static in it that I had to switch over to channel 4 to watch the rest of it. Also, the picture was a mess a couple of times for a couple of minutes each time. It was like watching a realplayer video over a 56k modem,with half the frames dropped from the transmission.

Edit: Ok, according to Bob Ross, The Agency's problems were national last night, not KCNC related. Some kind of a control room glitch in New York.

I would be up for a user group meeting/get together as well. Also any petitions that come from this just let me know where to sign.

Has anyone heard back from Fox yet on the Super Bowl? I've been in a pretty foul mood lately maybe I will call out there and see what I can find out. Probably just get the run around but you never know.

Later
Joe

Ok, What's up with the audio sync problems?

markdl, didn't have any problems, but i definitely saw a sync problem on my Dish 6000 during the 8-9pm CSI. (Didn't watch the 7-8) It was pretty small about 1/4 sec.

I'm extremely attuned/critical of the audio. Is it just all the different OTA receivers handling the signal differently or am i just being an 'over-listener'?

OK, its a bit off topic, but there are two lengthy articles on Home Theaters In Boulder County this morning in the Daily Camera. The main page and picture is at:

http://www.thedailycamera.com/livingarts/index.shtmlv

Since that page will only be good for today, the articles can be found individually at:

http://www.thedailycamera.com/livingarts/homegarden/25pthea.html

and

http://www.thedailycamera.com/livingarts/homegarden/25pside.html

I found it interesting in that there is almost no mention of HDTV for obvious reasons. The articles discuss the use of the theaters for watching DVD's, and mention only that it pays to get widescreen format "so in terms of HDTV (High Definition TV), which is the future, it pays to get a wide-screen". I wonder if there are any other large cities in the country where the paper wouldn't even bother to mention HDTV reception.

I didn't watch any CBS last night, so I didn't see any of the lip synch issues talked about, but I did notice that KRMA appeared to be up an running again with a clean picture. If you ever needed any justification for HD, all you needed to do is watch Leno last night. Michelle Pfeiffer was a guest. Standard TV would simply not do her justice.

Originally posted by JMartinko
If you ever needed any justification for HD, all you needed to do is watch Leno last night. Michelle Pfeiffer was a guest. Standard TV would simply not do her justice.

You got that right brotha! I've only recently been able to see Leno in HD, and normally I've never been a big fan of his show. But you can bet last night I saw it. :)

Huh...I don't remember any audio sync problems last night in either CSI watching from my Dish 6000. I suppose it's possible that the problems with The Agency made me forget about audio problems in the 2nd CSI...I dunno. I had my receiver in DPL mode rather than DD 2.0. Maybe that was the difference.

I watched both CSI's last evening. I was tuned to Ch35 but had to watch in SD because my HDTV is still broke (darn...). I did not notice any lipsync issues during the first episode. I did notice a lipsync issue for a portion of the 2nd episode. It cleared up when they broke for the first commercial break (10-15 minutes into the program?). After that all was well. No comment on the Agency cause I tuned to something different at 9:00....

Perhaps we can begin the petition process by using a free on-line petition site (http://www.**************.com/petition.html). I like the idea of seeing if ListenUp and Soundtrack would support the idea as well. Should they agree they could keep real-paper versions of the on-line petition. One thing we must avoid is duplicate signatures and signatures from folks not within the Denver DMA.

I think the petition could be a simple and straightforward statement along the lines of what I previously mentioned but I think it should also have a caution to ask folks not to sign more than once (i.e., don't sign the online petition and a physical petition if one if one is floated around).

I could take a crack at writing the petition but I'm much rather see someone with a better command of the English language and/or a "legal-beagle" craft the petition. Does anyone want to step up to the plate on this? Maybe someone from the KRMA legal staff? Please send me a Private Message if you're willing to do this (or just post it here).

Once we get an online petition written and submitted we could submit this to the Denver HDTV mailing list and ask the recipients to further distribute it.

I also thought we could possibly ask Mr Rosen to mention it a few times on his KOA Radio show (he is a HDTV fan).

Thoughts????

It would be nice if a 'legal begal' would take a shot at a petition. I know from experience it must be short and straight to the point. If it takes more than 30 seconds to read it, people won't bother to read it or sign it. I think all you need it to do is ask the Jeffco commissioners to suport HDTV act in favor of the KRMA Mt. Morrison plan and the LCG Supertower Plan (TBA). Set up columns for the name, and address, county of residence, and date.

I will try to contact some folks I know at Listen Up and see if they would be willing to leave a petition out for customers to see.

Much more effective than a petition would be to attend the hearings and voice support for the applicants. As a general rule, only those opposed to the towers bother to show up and speak. If several people signed up to speak in support of the towers it would have a much bigger impact than just submitting another few sheets of paper. (Each file for the past few rezoning attempts are not files, but boxes of information).

-Wabisabi

I was hoping that after I relocated my Channel Master Stealthtenna to the attic and adding the optional amp that I *MIGHT* have a chance to pull in KMGH-DT. All to no avail though since I am still not able to pick up KMGH. I need to try to tweak the antenna, but i am not optimistic since I know the signal is such as low power one with not much elevation.

Maybe I should try a larger Yagi, but not sure if that will even fit in the attic anyway. Besides, I probably too far south to pick up their feeble signal.

Well, I guess I should be happy with KCNC, and KRMA, and no comment for KDVR.

I'm game for the petition too. Anything that will get us to our goal quicker sounds good to me.

- Dustin

originally quoted by wabisabi As a general rule, only those opposed to the towers bother to show up and speak. If several people signed up to speak in support of the towers it would have a much bigger impact than just submitting another few sheets of paper.wabisabi,
I went to the last Mt. Morrision, JeffCo meeting and you're right, the anti-tower group was overwhelming. We need to be there in force to show our support.

You seem to be very up on when the meetings are, please let us know, so we can be there to show those NIMBY's, they ain't ____!

Has anyone heard anything more from FOX31 about a widescreen super bowl?

Brian

Not a peep from them!

I've tried calling the engineering dept. emailing the GM etc. I think they're all over at Zapolo's house, doing his flippin' laundry & waxing his Ferarri!

The picture appears to be full 16x9 to me. The score banner on top is not cut off like it usually is. I have been noticing that the video does not appear to be smooth. It almost appears as if their is a strobe light type effect. Anybody else notice this?

Originally posted by jcardona
The picture appears to be full 16x9 to me. The score banner on top is not cut off like it usually is. I have been noticing that the video does not appear to be smooth. It almost appears as if their is a strobe light type effect. Anybody else notice this?

Yup. I noticed that I can see the score banner and it doesn't seem to be cropped. But the video is unwatchable to me. The commercials come across fine, but as soon as the game comes in, it's horrible.:confused:

I'm seeing real bad picture problems on 32 - heavy pixellation and dropouts with a 75 signal strength on my dish 6000. From what I can see of the image, it still appears to be the 14x9 feed to me. Maybe the picture problems are indicative of them changing the equipment out to provide the 16x9 feed next week for the superbowl. I'm trying to be optimistic here... :)

Edited for more observations...I see what you guys mean by the bar not being cut off so much. But I'm still seeing thin black bars on the sides of the image the same size as if the image were 14x9. If it were 16x9, there would be no bars.

Let me know if when the petition has been created, and how/if you would like me to send it to the Denver mailing list. I still have it, although I have not sent anything out to it in a while. I posted this before, but if anyone wants to take over the job of maintaining the list, just let me know. I have a new baby on the way, so HDTV has kind of taken a back seat.... Well, sort of anyway....

Jay

Oh, no! Not the rams vs. patriots on turf, just as I feared in my post of Jan. 12. That might be worse than the Dilfer/Collins matchup fiasco last year. Also, KDVR, where are you?

At least we have the Avs against Aaron Miller & the LA Kings on HDNet from the Pepsi Center tomorrow night.

Don

Well, finally confirmation that 32 WILL pass the Super Bowl through as widescreen. Fox 32 New's at 9:00 just reported it.

As noted earlier something's been going on with the formatting on their regular programming also. Not nearly as much cropping going on today. Looks much better..aside from fast panning shots such as the game, where it looks "jerky".

Hopefully they'll get any kinks worked out, this week.

I caught that too Dan. I hope this means KDVR will be able to pass on the 16x9 format for shows that originate that way (x-files, etc).

I am glad they made the effort, but if the Super Bowl doesn't look any better than the 'jerky' picture they had yesterday I sure won't watch it on the DTV side. With the Rams and the Pats playing I am still trying to figure out if it is worth watching the game in the first place. Sounds like a pretty high risk to have a party to show off HD. Not only will it only be 420 if it works, but given what they had yesterday during the game, even that may not be watchable.

FWIW, for those of you with access to NBC, I read somewhere in the forum that there will be a Lakers game earlier that day broadcast in "real HD". I don't remember where I saw that, but I am sure we can confirm that somewhere this week.

You guys mentioned KDVR's planning on changing from 14:9 to 16:9, but did they say anything about the signal being 480P progressive and not interlaced?
That to me is equally important as 16:9.

Well as far as the pass through of the 480p dramas and sitcoms I guess we'll see tonight beginning with Boston Public. I still have my doubts there because of the time delay issue.

As far as the SB looking as bad as the game yesterday, I too would certainly hope not because that was virtually unwatchable. Overall, whatever they tweaked as far as formatting goes was a great improvement though I thought. The studio shots from the post game stuff looked pretty darn good, as did their local news. But the jerky/strobing effect as seen on the football was also present on subsequent programming too whenever there was fast pans. But it was just more noticeable on the football which of course is made up entirely of "fast" motion.

And as far as true HD on SB Sunday, yes the Lakers/Mavs game wil be in HD on both NBC and HDNet.

Dan
Thanks for the update on the Lakers/Mavs game. I must have read that in a HDNet thread but forgot about the HDNEt telecast. I would think that might salvage some SB parties for the HD 'show and tell with our new toys' side, although I am not a big fan of basketball these days either. BTW, the Avs game against the Kings tonight is also on HDNet.

Just wondering what the strobe effect was on the game yesterday. It almost looked like there was in mismatch in the frames per second rates somewhere in the chain that was showing up on some regular number of frames. It was a weird effect, and certainly not something I could watch for more than a minute or so.

Got a note back from a friend at Listen Up. He said he is fairly confindent that LU would be able to support us by keeping copies of a petition to Jeffco in their stores. Does anyone have any contacts at some of the other stores? If any of you have bought your gear from Circuit City or Soundtrak and have dealt with or know a store manager it would be a good place to start.

FYI: I'm waiting to hear back on the petition and will update everyone when I get more info...

As to FOX, I suspect they will broadcast 480p 16x9 not 480i 16x9 but they did not specify during the newscast...

I did do some comparisons between the analog and digital channel. They were showing more picture on the digital channel and very little was cropped off from the top and bottom. However, the picture wasn't all the way to the right side and there was some weird things happening on the right side. I could live with that, but not this "strobe effect". I was really hoping it wasn't my setup. I guess everyone else saw it to.

Also, did anyone notice that at some point the colors went crazy for about 15 minutes?

Hopefully they will have the kinks worked out by Sunday. 480p would be nice, but widescreen would at least be a start.

Brian

Well it's my understanding that the Fox affiliates will actually be receiving the SB in 480i widescreen, and then it's up to the affiliates to convert it to 480p which I guess wouldn't be a problem for 32 because they convert everything to 480p anyway. Which is all well and good, except on the 4:3 shows of course because they also seem to feel the need to stretch/zoom it for the sake of filling our screens while they're at it. Though beginning yesterday, they seemed to do a better job of that. Point being, is that at least the SB will be widescreen to begin with, so they shouldnt have to manipulate the geometry at all.

Now as to the jerky/strobing effect, I'm hoping/thinking that that effect was caused by a combination of upconverting *and* manipulation geometrywise at the same time (as well as perhaps a kink or 2 in the system if they've been tinkering) during yesterdays game since it wasnt widescreen to begin with. We'll just have to see.

Well it's my understanding that the Fox affiliates will actually be receiving the SB in 480i widescreen

I thought mother-Fox would be sending this as 480p...I know Fox is anti-HDTV but 480p hardly qualifies....If the affiliates are going to upconvert why not upconvert to 1080i which is what some of us have to do anyway (since some STB's don't output 480p).

I dont know, except to say that if they sent out 1080i upconverted or otherwise, it wouldnt look good towards their anti-HD stance ;)

If anybody is curious as to where I got the notion that the affiliates receive the game in widescreen 480i, it was from this:

Jim Defilippis of Fox has provided a clear explanation of how Superbowl will be produced, as reported in the OpenDTV forum:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The production of the game, pre-game and halftime show will be 480i60 widescreen (16:9). All cameras will be set for widescreen and the show will be produced in the shoot wide/protect 4x3 mode. All graphics will be centered and kept within the safe 4x3 area. Any legacy or 4x3 elements will be converted to a 16x9 frame with a backplate (instead of black). The 16x9 is the full production mix with the 4x3 derived; thus for the first time the DTV viewer will have everything the NTSC viewer sees and more.

The output of the truck(s) will go to LA as a full 16x9. In LA, an ARC (aspect ratio converter) will cut out a 4x3. There will be individual net rooms, one for 4x3 the other for the 16x9. We will deliver a 4x3 to all stations and for the DTV stations they'll get a digital 16x9 480i60 feed. Our stations will then convert this to a 480p60 signal for broadcast.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the great info Dan. The Rams/Pats game doesn't excite me and neither does the Fox production. Real 480p would have been better for motion but converting 480i to 480p is a yawner for me, even though I'd bet KDVR has an extremely good line doubler.

Given all this I wonder what KDVR had to buy?
- They don't have to time shift (no expensive server needed).
- They will convert 480i to 480p (nothing new here).
- They will preserve the 16x9 format (but they can make any AR ratio they want - including 14x9).
- They will insert their 480i commercials into the Fox 480i feed before upconverting to 480p (all they'll really need to do here is keep the 480i commercials formatted as 16x9, or include side bars).

could one of you guys help me with the following question on the Super Bowl. I live up in Boulder, and could probably get the OTA if I go out and but a big antenna.

My set up is as follows, I get both DirecTV and Dish for HD only. I heard recently that Directv started transmitting KDVR with their "local" package (which I no longer get). I also get ATT Broadband cable, which looks like garbage on my 100 inch 16:9 screen. My projector is a Sony 10HT.

So how can I get the superbowl in 480p 16:9. My three options seem to be

1) OTA (biggest pain for me because I need to get the antenna)
2) Get the local package from DirecTV - and hope and pray they pass through the signal
3) Hope and pray that ATT Cable passed the signal through (least likely).

Thanks a lot in advance.

The last 2 arent going to fly RJS. As to getting 32 OTA for the game, that channel in and of itself shouldnt require much of antenna because they're putting out a fairly good amount of power. It would be only if you wanted 18 or 35 as well, where you'd have to look into something more significant.

For 32 you might even just try the Radio Shack indoor double bow tie UHF antenna (great little antenna, if freaky looking). You could just buy it and try it, and take it back if it's not sufficient. But maybe someone from up there like jmartinko can give you better insight as to the possibilities.

Originally posted by RJS
So how can I get the superbowl in 480p 16:9. My three options seem to be

1) OTA (biggest pain for me because I need to get the antenna)
2) Get the local package from DirecTV - and hope and pray they pass through the signal
3) Hope and pray that ATT Cable passed the signal through (least likely).

Thanks a lot in advance.

1) That's what I did with an attic mount. Unfortunately, KDVR is all I get OTA!
2) I was getting Denver local channels via DirecTV but cancelled after getting adequate reception of the channels I cared about OTA. I'm almost positive DirecTV gives us ch 31 (KDVR 4x3 SD), not ch 32.
3) Can't say. I'm so far SE that there's no cable.

RJ
Don't know if your receivers have OTA capability already, but if they do you should be able to get KDVR. I live in the Gunbarrel area and although I use an outdoor antenna for KCNC and KRMA, I have been able to easily get KDVR with a cheap pair of rabbit ears. Unless you live on the west end, right up against the foothills, you should be able to get it with and indoor cheap antenna. If you have any visibility of Lookout from your house it will be a slam dunk. Like Dan said, it 'ain't gonna happen' on AT&T cable or on Direct TV.

thanks to all. I live in Niwot, up on the ridge (somerset) so I have a fairly good shot down to denver. I will try the antenna.

To get Fox's digital channel, you'll be looking for a good shot to Lookout Mountain. Just wanted to make sure you weren't confused with the other digital channels that actually broadcast their signal from downtown Denver.

RJ
In Somerset, you are probably less than a mile from my house, so unless you are way down on the north side of the ridge on Lookout Rd. and blocked with your view of Lookout Mt. you should have no trouble with KDVR using a set of rabbit ears. As for KCNC and KRMA, I can only get them with a large UHF only antenna outside. Those two will really depend upon your 'view' of downtown Denver.

JMartinko,

regarding receivers, I have both the Dish 6000 and the Sony HD100. I think these should work, do you agree. I have never focused on the OTA until now, so I am relatively (totally?) uninformed. thanks

The HD-100 will work and the Dish 6000 will also work if you have the OTA (8VSB) module.

RJ
Regarding the use of the Dish6000 and the Sony HD100, you will have to get that help from Geof and others. My OTA modules are in a Unity Motion 1000A which is primarily a C/Ku Band MPEG2 HD receiver, and a Zenith OTA box provided to me by KRMA for some enhanced TV tests. Neither are commercial receivers. My setup is a somewhat exotic C/Ku Band TVRO big dish antenna, and I don't use the same equipment most people use.

I just got off the phone with Fox's engineering department. They said that they are experimenting with passing the 480P primetime lineup. They will have everything completely automated to pass the 480P shows natively soon, and definitely post SB. I told him that I don't watch their station because of the cropping and zooming. He asked my preference, I told him, stretch it to fit the screen or center it with gray bars. Stretched to fit the screen would be the best option because people can manipulate the picture with their TV's when not in HD mode. They are gearing up for the super bowl. Wow great news the SB in 480P, (insert sarcasm here).
Well I'm looking forward to ascertaining how 480P looks compared to 720P. I've heard some people say that Fox's 16x9 480P looks as good as ABC's 720P sometimes. I doubt it because ABC's 720P looks better than CBS's 1080i sometimes.

Real 480p would have been better for motion but converting 480i to 480p is a yawner for me, even though I'd bet KDVR has an extremely good line doubler.

Geof,
Unfortunatly, there are no broadcast cameras that originate 480p. Sony (which is about 95% of what the broadcast trucks use) only makes 480i cameras with switchable 4:3 & 16:9. They also make HD cameras, the HDW-700A in 16:9/1080i (these are the cameras in all the HD trucks right now) and the HDW-F900 with 1080p outputs which is used mostly in dramatic/movie projects (Star Wars episode 2 was just shot with this awesome camera)

Some of the FOX Network shows are provided to the stations in 480p, but ironically, they are originated in Full HD with the Sony HDW-F900 at 1080p (Titus). The others are shot on Film and only transfered to 480p for air.
Well I'm looking forward to ascertaining how 480P looks compared to 720P. I've heard some people say that Fox's 16x9 480P looks as good as ABC's 720P sometimes. I doubt it because ABC's 720P looks better than CBS's 1080i sometimes.

Greg T,
It's like anything, the quality is relative to the crew (DP, Gaffers, Sets etc) CBS's Max Binford is shot with the Sony HDWF900 camera. It looks like cr*p. Why? Bad DP, and lighting people. With film originated programming, there's more steps involved. The shooting is only one step, then it has to get transfered to tape with a telecine. These new HDTV capable telecines (which are few to start with) are booked solid with studios transferring their films to tape for archiving, so what happens is weekly drama/sitcoms that get shot on film, start out looking great, but then get transferred with so-so telecine machines and with 2nd string colorists, and what do think happens?
----------
What i don't understand is Fox's logic...This is the Superbowl with a huge world-wide audience, why aren't using one of the state-of-the-art 1080 HD trucks and then downconvert it to 480i NTSC & 480p for the digital stations? Those trucks aren't going to be very busy on that Sunday.

Thanks for the info Ernie. I agree with you in that I do not understand Fox's logic either. Can't blame that on KDVR though. It looks like they've upgraded their infrastructure and we'll see more 480p/480i widescreen stuff in the future (thanks Greg). I guess that means they'll be able to pass along what the network sends them (at least video-wise, don't know about sound).

Greg T:

I'd like to respectfully disagree with your opinion that 4:3 material stretched to fit 16:9 would be the best option for Fox. When my Samsung TV is in HDTV mode, it forces the picture to widescreen -- I can't squish it back to 4:3. I'd prefer that if Fox were to send a 4:3 OAR picture, they flag it as 4:3 and let my STB decide how to best display it on my TV. Or if they have to transmit a 16:9 picture, put grey bars on the side and don't mess with OAR. I'm very happy with how KCNC is handling this issue.

I didn't spend the money I did on my home theatre equipment to see a picture that's a) missing information on the top or bottom b) distorted.

My 2 cents. YMMV.

Originally posted by Greg T
I told him that I don't watch their station because of the cropping and zooming. He asked my preference, I told him, stretch it to fit the screen or center it with gray bars. Stretched to fit the screen would be the best option because people can manipulate the picture with their TV's when not in HD mode.

Not to beat a dead horse, but you keep saying stretched is the best option. I submit it's *never* the best option when a station does that because theres no way I can undo it. Even if I switch out of HD mode, the originating signal is still manipulated regardless and I cant un-stretch it. Whereas if the signal isnt stretched, then yes, *then* you can go into SD mode and stretch it all you want.

I think you're a little too paranoid about burn in when as long as your contrast and brightness are set right, and you watch a variety of different programming formats, you really need'nt worry. At least I dont.

Ooops, in other words I agree with dr mal..we were both typing at the same time :)

Grey bars would theoretically prevent burn in. Yes, it's a real issue. I calibrated my set using Video Essentials and watched pretty much just 4:3 video from my TiVo for over a year. Then I got my STB and now when I watch anything in widescreen, especially HDNet's hockey, I can see that the "white" in the middle 4:3 of my screen isn't quite as white as the area outside of the 4:3 box. It's not too distracting when I'm watching darkly lit shows or shows that don't showcase pure white ice like hockey, but it's definitely a problem. If my Samsung had an option to grey-sidebar 4:3 programming, it would probably be OK.

Then again, maybe I should recal using VE and see if anything's changed. It has been a while.

Am I correct in assuming there's no fix for burn in?

Well if you watched almost nothing but 4:3 for a year, sure it could be an issue!! ;)

Yeah, should've paid more attention to the manual where it said "only use the 4:3 mode for occasional use". I didn't want to distort the 4:3 content that was available to me, though. Oh well. Live and learn.

I very much agree - stretched is NOT the answer to broadcasting 4:3 OAR material. Send it 4:3 and put the grey bars on it if you can. I also like the way that KCNC is doing it. I wish that CBA national would put the grey bars on the sides of their stuff!

By Stretched, I'm saying, "make it look like 4:3 images look in Standard mode on my WS-55857"(wide images). If they fill the screen, and I put my DTC-100 in SD mode, and set my 55857's mode to narrow, I'll have gray bars and a 4:3 unaltered image. If I put the 55857's mode in Expand mode I can cut the top and bottom off and zoom the center. My TV handles stretched 16:9 or 4:3 images just the same in SD mode. I can expand them, narrow them, or crop them. These just seems like the best option for 4:3 HDTV's and 16:9 HDTV's. Most people probably can't alter KCNC's image. 4:3 probably see double letterboxing. So, I guess every option requires compromise on Someone's part.
I like what KCNC is doing also. In fact I suggested it to David Lane. It actually makes it exciting when you see the CBS logo at the edge of the screen instead of the center right, you know what's coming, HD.
I guess that's why every Denver station(except Channel 9) should read these forums to see what the majority prefer. Thanx for the feedback.

Well at least you guys have working TV's. Soundtrack service came out to the house a week ago last Friday but did not order the necessary parts until this past Thursday. That's amost a one week delay, which I have a very hard time excusing. Nonetheless, it looks like I'll miss all HDTV - not just an upconverted SB - for another week and that's being optimistic because there is no guarantee the ordered parts will fix the problem...

Greg,

What you describe would give me a windowboxed picture on my Dish 6000 and Sony KP51hw40. I much prefer the broadcast be 4:3 because I can then have the 6000 stretch, zoom, partial zoom or put grey bars on the sides of the image in HD mode. If I set it to SD mode, then my Sony can do the image stretching however I want. When the broadcast is stretched, I can't do anything with it with my equipment (well, not entirely true, but I don't have all the options available).

Well folks, looks like we're getting our first taste of the 480p shows on Fox, with Boston Public. You'll notice the Fox logo is well off to the right, half missing, even on the national commercials. Thats one tell tale sign.

I noticed that too. It's great to see! However, they are still having that "strobe" type effect on the motion scenes. It seems we aren't getting the whole widescreen picture, since the X is missing from the logo. But, it's definately much more picture than the 4:3 feed.

I'm a bit worried about the motion scenes. If they can't fix that, the super bowl will be unwatchable.

Brian

I think the Fox logo is always like that on the national widescreen feed. I've seen it that way from the Boston affiliate, and guys from other cities mention it too.

Did Boston Public come in clearly for you guys last night? The little while that I tried to watch it, I was getting lots of dropouts and picture freezes. I don't think I had the best signal (I think it was about 65%), but it was enough to lock on. I've never bothered to find the optimum antenna location in my basement for Fox. Guess I'm going to have to now.

I only watched a couple of minutes here and there in between periods of the Avs game, but it looked fine while I was watching. During fast motion stuff it seemed like I saw a minor strobing effect like there was during the game on Sunday, but I didn't watch long enough to be sure.

Sounds like KDVR is at least trying to do some things. That's a first.

Jeff

The KRMA folks do not believe a petition is as effective as letters and/or personal testimony (basically echoing what wabisabi posted several days ago). To a large extent I agree with this but if JeffCo only receives a dozen or so letters what do they think - there are only a dozen or so interested viewers? I am not so naïve as to believe that everyone who signs a petition would have (or will) write a letter. To my way of thinking a petition with hundreds or thousands or names reinforces the dozen or so personal letters. NO????

I am expecting further word and guidance from KRMA but in the meantime:

1) What are your thoughts on a petition???
2) Are you willing to write personal letters and/or testify before JeffCo???

I guess I'll have to check out KDVR this evening. I wasn't even going to watch the Super Bowl. But I guess if they are going to actually get this fixed I'll watch. Glad to see that they are finally making an effort.

What other shows does Fox have that are at least widescreen that are any good? I've really enjoyed the stuff from CBS as of late. Stuff that I never would have watched before.

Later
Joe

Geof
I, for one, still think a petition would be another effective tool. If 10 or 20 of us from the forum write letters (which I hope we will), I think the Jeffco commissioners will still look upon the letters as if they are from the only 10 or 20 people in Colorado that give a da*n if there is HDTV. I think those letters together with a list of signatures from another 1000 people might begin to convince them that HDTV is not going to go away and the people are fed up. The numbers will let them know that Coloradoans know we are the only major market without HD access.
On that front, I received a note this morning from Listen Up. The note said they would be willing to put such a petition in their stores and ask people to sign them while they shop for HD sets to watch their DVD's. I believe we can get the other stores to join in the action if we AVS members work together.

No one will convince me that all of those people will go home and write letters to Jeffco, but I am convinced that our voices need to be heard. Right now the commissioners think there are 10000 (S)CARE members fighting the applications and 10 AVS folks in favor of it. We NEED to change that perception with numbers as well as our letters.

jm,
You and I are on the same page....

Since no one has stepped up to the plate to write it I will take a crack at it. I'll run it by you (jm) for comments before posting it....

But it still comes down to a political issue doesnt it? Those commissioners are just covering their own asses, they're not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts towards Care or truly because of health concerns.

Wouldnt all of this simply be a moot point if it so happened that a different group of people became commissioners that simply thought that Lookout was the only logical place, as it has been for 50 years? Or not? Would Care then just sue the county for an injunction and yada yada yada all over again.

I dunno, is just blows my mind how it can be such a problem up on Lookout but yet theres full power transmitters atop inner city buildings in other parts of the country that undoubtedly "affect" many more people everyday.

Granted we've established my pessimistic nature in the past, but I gotta say that I dont think a petition with even 100,000 signatures would make any difference at this particular point. To the vast majority of people this still boils down to nothing but "futurisitc" television anyway when it comes to the standpoint of arrousing major passion by the people as a whole. It's not like we're talking about building a maximum security federal prison where Villa Italia used to be.

As much as the FCC doesnt want to, them, or somebody like them is going to have to step in because I promise you that if it's left to some sort of local negotiation the Care group isnt going to give one inch. Ever.

No Dan, the (S)CARE folks aren't going to budge one inch. But, we gotta start somewhere. I can't vote for the JeffCo commissioners but I sure can try any point out there is a demand for some resolution of this issue outside of JeffCo. Maybe they already know this but maybe just maybe they need to really understand that several thousand folks are watching them.

We must also keep in mind the "official" reasons for the LCG tower being denied were not health related.

I don't know what else we can do. Maybe you're right in that we can accomplish nothing. I do know that if we resign ourselves to indifference then little may be accomplished. I'd hate to hear the disappointing outcome and then wonder if we could have made a difference.

But doesnt it strike one as odd that *we* should even have to do anything? The stations themselves could do more for the cause in 2 minutes once a week on their 10 o'clock newscasts, than we could do in the rest of our lifetimes. Why would they not do that? It seems one could only conclude that they're in no real big hurry themselves. I mean when you think about it, it's flat out unbeliveable that the stations dont try and win the support of thier viewers in that way.

So what does that mean? Not only do we have to fight Care,... and alert the Commish's that we want it,.... and then hope and pray that the stations wont milk it out as long as they possibly can regardless?

And now as others have pointed out our case is actually even weaker now that KCNC has come on board in the way they have.

I guess what I'm asking is..who are our allies? Theres three other "well oiled machines" if you will involved and certainly none of those seem to be. It's really just 500 guys that dig watching CSI in HD, isnt it?

Ok, enough of the bad vibes for now. Actually I'll probably come back and delete these after I think it through.

Exciting news folks. I have been talking to the folks from KRMA and they have agreed to let us hold a meeting of the AVS Forum-Denver area group at the KRMA studios in the conference room. James Morgese and Bud Rath along with Tom Schomburg of the Digital TV Engineering Staff and Tiffany Tyson from the Communications Department are willing to meet with us and discuss the HDTV issues of the KRMA application with us. James will also be willing to discuss 'some' of the LCG issues, although since the application is pending (depending upon when we do this), that discussion may be limited. If and when it is appropriate, we may try to set up another meeting after the LCG application is filed. I would hope to get people from the other networks involved in that meeting.

I think this is VERY EXCITING news. It will give many of us a chance to meet together and finally associate some faces with the names. In addition it will give us time to discuss issues such as the petitions, organize our letters of support for the tower applications, vent frustrations (although we may have to limit that discussion, its too obvious) and share other ideas as to what we can do to get these applications approved this time. It will also be a chance for the members to talk to the engineers, ask questions, and get some 'inside skinny' on how this HD stuff works.

This is also a chance to thank KRMA for their efforts to bring us the Super Bowl last year with their equipment. I have also had someone from Listen Up offer to try to attend to share ideas as to what they can do to help. We need to get organized to combat the (S)CARE elephant. This can be our opportunity. It can also be fun, which is not a bad thing.

I am working on selecting some dates with the KRMA folks (we have to do it when they are available), and will get back to the forum when we have 3 or 4 options in mind. I expect the times will be in the evening so we do not have to take vacation from work. We can select the time and date that is best for the most people. I hope the members here will be willing to support this meeting. We have talked about a gathering like this for some time in the forum, and I think KRMA will be giving us a great opportunity to get together. Stay tuned for more information. I will post the options for the time and dates as they become available.

What do you all think of this? Are the members willing to support it if we pick a date? Are some of the 'lurkers' willing to post and show up as well? What about it?

Good work John.

I will be there.

Hopefully the meeting is sooner rather than later. I will make a couple of rough drafts of the petition and ask for review at the meeting. I trust a ListenUp representative will be at that meeting.

Any idea of how much time KRMA is allocating for this meeting?

And finally, thanks KRMA.

----

Dan,
I think KRMA is serious and I will support them. As to the LCG I agree that the jury is still out on whether or not they are really trying.

I will certainly attend a meeting if I am at all available on the night chosen. Maybe James or Bud or someone at KRMA in PR could let a writer or two know about it. I am sure that Jennifer Beaupreauz of the Post ( their tech writer ) would attend something llike this if she is available.

Thanks for the info.

Jeff

This is great news, and absolutely I will be there unless the world ends (or something along those lines happens). I'll make the time - just say when. I'll even take a day off from work to be there if necessary.

This is GREAT news! I'm definitely in -- FWIW Wednesday and Saturday nights don't work so well with me.

I agree that having someone from the press there could be good if KRMA would allow it. My fear is that they'd be less likely to talk openly about a pending LCG application if there's a reporter there though.

Originally posted by JMartinko
Exciting news folks. I have been talking to the folks from KRMA and they have agreed to let us hold a meeting of the AVS Forum-Denver area group at the KRMA studios in the conference room.
:
:
:
What do you all think of this? Are the members willing to support it if we pick a date? Are some of the 'lurkers' willing to post and show up as well? What about it?
'lurker' here -- I'm in any time!!! (if I'm not on a businesss trip) I think this a great idea.

Consider it an attendance test for the more important showing we need to make at the next Jeffco public hearing regarding the towers. Is anybody keeping their eye out for a hearing schedule related to the most recent tower application? Is that expected to be in early summer?

Great news! When you find out the times/dates I'll let you know whether I'll be able to make it!

I'll be there assuming no scheduling conflicts! Thanks guys!

-John

Dan,

I really share your frustrations. Nothing much has happened since I've been watching this situation (what, almost 2 years now?). If there's been one constant in this crazy mess it has been KRMA. Since my first phone call to Mr. Morgese, I've believed they wanted this resolved and wanted to get on the air. I cannot say the same for the other stations and (in my mind at least) there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence that the other stations are stalling (or at least riding the (S)CARE excuse). You're right in that "we" shouldn't have to do anything except turn on the TV and tune in. I'd rather be watching TV than wondering when Denver will join the new millennium. However I guess in the real world we have to fight for what we want and that usually means pushing crap uphill (in this case Lookout). I said this once before and kinda received the cyber version of a blank stare but I think the JeffCo commissioners will do the right thing when the time comes. I do not believe they are being controlled by the (S)CARE-Qaeda group (and yes I do believe (S)CARE is a sort of terrorist organization when (among other things) they starting spreading fear and concern about lack of sleep being due to RF). Nonetheless, I think KRMA needs a technically solid application that addresses all of the JeffCo TLUP provisions. They cannot leave any "loopholes" to give the JeffCo Commissioners an easy out. I also believe KRMA needs to show support for their plan and to that end we may be able to help. As to the meeting at KRMA I'll be reading up on the JeffCo TLUP and asking questions to see if they have their bases covered. If they don't I will quietly walk away and keep my mouth shut in disgust....(I hope I'm not too naïve on all of this)....

I'm interested in the meeting.

Back to FOX: has anyone noticed that they seem to have stopped the 14x9 thing for good? They are broadcating 16x9 all the time now, with 4:3 material stretched. At least there's no cropping anymore, but I really wish they would leave it up to the viewer on whether we want it stretched or not.

Brian

Thanks, Geof, for your persistence here.

I am also interested in attending the meeting, signing the petition, and writing a letter. I wrote to Bob Schaefer about the Lookout Mtn. situation a year ago when I was a lurker and had no equipment, but wanted to have local HD content. Hopefully the LCG will submit a complete and bulletproof (well as close as possible) application this time. I believe Mark Cuban is right, HD can achieve critical mass and displace SD channels.

Don

Well let me say that KRMA truly is the beacon in all this if there is such a thing. At least in my mind. One of the very first ones up digitally..and the first really, if you consider KMGH to be totally makeshift, which I do. I also leave them off the hook pretty much in regards to what I said earlier about air time devoted to the issue. They dont claim to be Colorados News Leader or any some such.

But I guess I'm just trying to figure out what difference it all makes at this point. I personally am not losing out on any programming, due to other arrangements. It's not something anybody else couldnt do if it were merely a matter of that. Is it perhaps some sort of community pride? Nah, it's things like Coors Field and Mile High, and The Pepsi Center, and lo-do that are things to be proud of..that bring people here. When outsiders see them they can be wowed and appreciate it. Bring in income. The only place where not having dtv in Denver is looked at as being a black eye (if it's looked at at all) is places on the net like this.

On the other hand there are businesses that could stand to make out well. Such as the Soundtracks and ListenUps as previously mentioned. But yet they need folks from here...that have already purchased the equipment no less, to organize public awareness for them? Whats up with that? They could have taken up the cause in earnest 2 years ago themselves. Not to mention again, the commercial tv stations themselves, while perhaps not standing to gain anything in the short term, are certainly under an obligation, federally mandated no less, to do the right thing.

I'm not saying KRMA doesnt need a show of support but where are people like Wellington Webb, and some of the Congress people from the area and State Legislators to plead how it brings the region into the new millenium. To my way of thinking, *thats* truly the kind of backing this needs. But do those folks even really care themselves?

Man, anybody got any "pick-me-uppers"?? I need one today it seems!

Man, anybody got any "pick-me-uppers"?? I need one today it seems!


Listen to Bush's State of the Union Address :)

Way to go guys! I'm in too.
On the other hand there are businesses that could stand to make out well. Such as the Soundtracks and ListenUps as previously mentioned.
Not to mention all the small businesses (like mine) who own video production companies that produce commercials. We have been stuck in the middle. We don't/can't buy any new HD production equipment, because there's no stations to air our HD spots

Lurking this board for a couple of years, I'm compelled to respond as well. Count me in as a Denver area CEDIA,ISF,HANA,CEA dealer who has been petioning and writing for over 2 years now. If KRMA falls thru, my Park Meadows store is always available.

Be sure to not switch channels and dig deep when KRMA is fundraising.

jeffwalter,

Welcome to the posting here. What store? Can we count on you as a place to solicit the petitions, etc. ? We would love to hear from you more.

Jeff

Long time lurker here... Count me in for the meeting & petition too.

Jay

Sounds great. Count me in for the meeting.

- Dustin

Thanks for the quick feedback folks. It sounds like this may be a good idea. I should get some dates firmed up tomorrow with KRMA and I will post them ASAP. They are suggesting a Wednesday night or a Saturday afternoon in the next few weeks. I like the Saturday time since it might give a better chance for some of the folks from areas like Ft. Collins and so forth to get down to the meeting. They can make a day of it with the family if it works. I will let you all know some time and dates when folks are available.

DP1--are you trying to take over my position here as the most cynical member? I once even was asked to leave the group for being so negative all the time, no fair taking my spot. I had first 'dibs'.

Actually, I agree with you, we really should not have to be doing all of this. In most cities, the stations went out, put in their applications, the local commissioners approved them, the towers went up and it was done. But this is Colorado, so what do you expect? We always have to do things the hard way. I do believe though, that it will be necessary to show extensive public support in order to counter the (S)CARE organization. Yes, you can argue that the LCG, Listen Up and others should have done something sooner. We already know they did not anticipate the amount of resistance, propaganda, distortions and outright lies from the (S)CARE organization. Once that first application was in and was found to be flawed by the fine tooth comb of the (S)CARE group, I am afraid we were doomed to this process. That coupled with the apparent lack of effort from many of the self proclaimed major affiliates has left us high and dry.

But since this little problem seems to be unique to our little town, it is something we have to contend with. If a large group of citizens are united to stop the towers, it will take another group of citizens to counter them. That is the way things usually work in a democracy, and make no mistake, this is now largely a political situation, not a technical one. As a long time veteran of the political wars, I can attest, some times "you just gotta do what needs to be done". I applaud KRMA for taking the lead in all of this, and I guess I feel we 'owe them one' for their efforts to get us the Super Bowl last year.

As for spending time berating them for the problems with the first LCG application, or the delays on the second, I suspect that is mostly counter productive. I think there will be plenty of time for those comments when the towers are up and the signals are on the air. I want to remind all of you that although James Morgese has said he will spend some time discussing the LCG application, but that discussion will need to be somewhat limited at this time for legal reasons. I do promise I will make an effort to set up a second meeting and try to get some representatives from the other affiliates to attend that one at some point when the LCG application is submitted. In the meantime, let's get this effort started. At the very least, it will be fun for all of us to get together in the same room. Can't be very often you can get that many HDTV nuts in the same room at the same time.

Count me in, as long as I am in town I will be there.

Thanks
Joe

Count me in too!

I'm committed to the meeting also. Jeff Walter is the owner of HomeScene, a store you guys should know about. It is devoted to the toys we all love--electronic stuff from security to networking to home theater--at Quebec and County Line. If you get a chance, go by.

Mike Rife

I will certainly try to be at the meeting!

I haven't ppsted in awhile, but I'm still following along.

As an aside, I visited my parents near Phoenix over the holidays, and I helped my dad put up an antenna for DTV. I simply eyeballed the direction of nearby antennas, and immediately got 100% signal strength on all six DTV stations. That's how it needs to be here, and it can be if we ever get full-power DTV.

After getting the perfect picture on the DTV channels, I went back up on the roof and tried to tweak things for the analog channels. I never really did get a decent picture on most of those.

On the other hand, I'd rather have KCNC as our CBS station than the one in Phoenix, which doesn't carry HDTV just because they won't make the modest investment to do so.

Mark

I would like to attend also. Just let us know the times and dates.

Just got word from KRMA. They are giving us a primary date to work with at the moment. It would be Wednesday, Feb 13, at 6 or 7 PM. Since this is their building I think we should try to work with this date. I would think 7 pm would work better for those who don't work anywhere near downtown, and might also avoid some traffic issues at 5 o'clock.

Feedback?? Are you all still in?

That date, and either time, work for me. Per your comment I think the 7:00 time is probably better....

I'm in for Feb. 13th. Either time works for me.

Thanks
Joe

Wednesdays aren't the best, and 6:00 would actually be better for me, but I'll find a way to make it either way.

The 13th is fine.

7:00 is preferable, but I can make either with some effort.

Let us know the final results.
Jeff

The 13th isn't going to work for me.

But I still want to be involved as much as I can. I'll write a letter, sign the petition, and attend future meetings when possible.

-Mike

FYI, for those planning to attend the meeting on Wed. Feb. 13'th. I still think 7 is the best time, any other opinions? Perhaps those that want to come early can use the time as a 'get acquainted' session before we gather to discuss some issues and listen to the KRMA folks.

I do hope people will check in to this forum if they plan to attend so we can get a rough head count. Newbies and lurkers are of course welcome too. A lot of members said yes before the date was announced. I will assume you still plan to attend unless you post again. In order to be fair to KRMA, we need to give them at least an approximate head count. Tiffany Tyson has promised us that she will provide some information packets to everyone at the meeting which will have a sample letter which can be sent to the Jeffco commissioners in support of the tower applications.

I do think it will be a good idea if all those that attend would plan on sending a letter (the sample or your own personal version) to Jeffco. If you know someone who can't make it but would send the letter that would be helpful too. We can talk about how to handle any petitions at the meeting. Feel free to post some topics of discussion too so people can think about it in advance, although I am guessing we have probably beat most of the old horses to death already in the forum.

Originally posted by JMartinko

Tiffany Tyson has promised us that she will provide some information packets to everyone at the meeting which will have a sample letter which can be sent to the Jeffco commissioners in support of the tower applications.

I do think it will be a good idea if all those that attend would plan on sending a letter (the sample or your own personal version) to Jeffco. If you know someone who can't make it but would send the letter that would be helpful too. We can talk about how to handle any petitions at the meeting. Feel free to post some topics of discussion too so people can think about it in advance, although I am guessing we have probably beat most of the old horses to death already in the forum.

jm,

Like I mentioned, I still want to be involved. Would you be willing to send me one of those packets after the meeting?

-Mike

I'll be there on the 13th. 7:00 is probably a little better for me, but the 6:00 is certainly doable as well.

Count me in; just set the time.

Mike

Originally posted by mknoebel


jm,

Like I mentioned, I still want to be involved. Would you be willing to send me one of those packets after the meeting?

-Mike

Mike
Send me a private email with your address about a day before the meeting (so I don't forget or lose it) and I will see that you get a packet from one of us.

I have it scheduled for either time in my calendar.
See you all there.
Jeff

Count me in...and I am spreading the word....

I'll try to make it.

Rather than leave the time to a vote, I talked with Tiffany and we agreed the best thing is to say from 6-7 PM will be a 'get acquainted' time and the formal festivities and discussions will start at 7 PM. That way the early arrivals can get to know each other and the late arrivals will still have a chance to talk to the KRMA folks.

jm,
That sounds like an ideal planning solution.

Jeff

Count me in too.
Oh, and I'll bring the beer... only kiddin'!

Wed. Feb 13th. I'll be there 7PM or earlier if I can.

Great job!

I'll be there as well.

Michael

I will attend also

Sorry, I will not be able to attend. I leave for Los Angeles on the date of the meeting.

Mike aka Hot
Sorry you can't make it. You are a long time great contributor. Maybe the next one.

Well I just succeeded in getting the 80 inch antenna in my attic, with an amplifier (which needs to have an extension cord because there are no outlets up there). Anyway, I am getting KDVR (32). I caught the last 5 seconds of the news and then a sit-com came on - Just Shoot Me. I noticed three issues which I will raise as questions.

1) the right side of my 16:9 screen was cropped (probably making it 14:9, although I did not measure). Is this normal? Will the SuperBowl be the same?

2) the picture was okay, but sure was not DVD quality, and of course no where near HD. Anyone care to comment whether the SuperBowl will/should be better quality than something like Just Shoot Me?

3) there was a very noticeable timing difference in audio/video. My audio was about 1/8 second ahead of the video. This is unacceptable - is this Fox, or something with my system.

Thanks in advance.

I will likely have a return at Radio Shack in the near future.

RJS,
Sorry I cannot help you with the first 2 questions (my HDTV is still busted) but I have consistently found lip sync issues with KDVR. You're right, it is unacceptable - it is KDVR, not your setup.

Marked on the calendar. I'll be there.

Count me in too.

If letters are more effective than petitions, how about some kind of form letter? I'm willing to give them to all my HD customers and prospective customers. I already explain the situation to folks who wander in and direct them to this thread for additional info.

I'm thinking tho that most would be more inclined to "petition" or write if we had some kind of form or template that they would just sign and mail. Heck, I can even pop for self addressed and stamped envelopes.

THis way, the stations will see names and addresses other than ours.

Jeff

Jeff,
Good idea - I think this should be discussed with KRMA when we meet there....

I haven't posted here for a while so please bear with me. Since I think that good HDTV availability in Denver is still so far away, I would like to know about what the HDTV story is on the Dish network?
I *may* be able to get it where I live, (pretty close to being a few degrees the wrong way,) but I need to know if it's worth pursuing.
And if so, how can I find out for sure before I order the service?

Any help would be sincerely appreciated. Thank you!

Dave W.

I would love to attend on the 13th, but will be out of town at the time. I will try to attend any future events if I'm in town. I would appreciate any updates here and most certainly would sign a petiton and send a letter. -Brian

I might be in San Antonio on the 13th, if I'm not, I'll be at the meeting.


Fox 480P and my DTC-100: I have many artifacts with the Fox 480P signal. It looks like my DTC-100 is adding them, probably because it's up converting 480P to 540P. The signal actually looks better via the DTC-100's S-video out into my DVDO Iscan V2. I see half the X in Fox via DVDO and a small piece of the left of the X via RGB output. I'd guess that people with the Panasonic units that pass 480P natively probably have a pretty good picture. At least it's widescreen.

Last night I compared KMGH,KCNC, and KDVR
KDVR- by far the worst picture, although true 16X9. Many artifacts and muddy colors compared to the other stations.(show Berni Mac and Titus). Despite what some might say, it wasn't DVD quality.
KMGH- Not as much detail as KCNC, but more vibrant colors. According to Jim's colors seemed to jump off the screen. Very vibrant.
KCNC- Very good color and detail. Detail better than KMGH's, but colors not as vivid or intense. The show was Jag. CSI is the show that has very vivid colors and excellent detail.

The 13th at 7 works well for me... see ya'll there!

-John

It looks like we'll have a good turn out for the KRMA meeting. So far I count 16 "for sures" and 7 "maybes" (or unconfirmed). Here's a list...

jm
Geof
Jeffden
Markdl
Dr_mal
RonAuger
JohnJr
Santellavision
Jeffwalter
Joej
MrinDenver
Keithsimp
Pokers
Zanaberry
Freddie
Mbuchana
BrianBHD (?)
Donyoop (?)
Deepcscuba (?)
Smithdzd (?)
Serotta (?)
MalcolmG (?)
Greg T (?)

Folks with ? marks after there names are either unsure or have not re-confirmed since jm posted the date and time. I think this is a great turnout but would still like to encourage more JeffCo residents to try and attend.

On a slightly different note, I checked into the KWGN situation again today. They are targeting a May completion time-frame but I got absolutely fuzzy answers when I asked (the Engineering Dept) if they had started the process of installing the equipment (they are on Lookout). I was told they "do not expect" any problems with JeffCo, which sounds like they haven't started that process yet either. I do believe they are zoned differently than the LCG stations so their JeffCo process should be much easier. One has to wonder how smoothly their Jeffco process will go and whether or not they'll make the May time-frame. Nonetheless if they get on the air this year it will be a good accomplishment (and they'll beat the LCG stations).

Geof,
Thanks for doing the head count. So far it looks like we can expect a good turnout. I would encourage those of your living in Jeffco to feel free to bring a friend or neighbor. Letters from Jeffco voters will surely carry more weight than my letter from Boulder.

Hey guys,

Was wodering if anyone has a setup where they are recieving both Dish and DirectTV channels. I am currently recieving Dish through an Dish 6000 reciever, but also have a DirectTV reciever built into my RCA Television. I noticed that DirectTV's HDNET is at 119 which is the same position as one of the Dish satalites I am already pointing to. Does this mean I just need to run a cable from my dish to the DirectTV reciever and order HDNET, or is the DISH Network dish incompatible for some reason. Is there anything else I would have to do to recieve DirectTV?

jm,
I'll try to keep the list updated as we go along. I suspect KRMA will want to know how many folks will be showing up at their doorstep...

Again, thanks for setting this up. I know you were working with KRMA for several days to get this meeting setup.

emorahan,
The Little Silly Dishes themselves are compatible with either Dish Network or DirecTv receivers but that's about the extent of the compatibility. You can use the same dish for both DirecTv and Dish but I believe it's more involved than just "connecting up a wire". You can find some wiring diagrams at this site (http://www.geocities.com/dbs_tech/) (checkout the Elliptical dish alternative wiring for DirecTV / Dish Network hybrid systems link).

Geof
Yes, I am keeping KRMA updated, I made a copy of your list (it didn't seem to have any DVI/HDCP or other copyguard ennabled) and sent it to them a few minutes ago to give them a preliminary head count. Hope it didn't 'down rez' when they tried to read it.

Can some of you folks with Dish and Direct TV help Mike W. and emorahan with their questions? I don't use either service so I can't help.