Did anyone notice today while watching 9 news that when they flipped from a graphic to the live cameras(not all) or from a tape to the live cameras that it was very blurry? It then took a few seconds to come back sharp again. It has only happened on 9 news no other programs or channels have done this. I'm just hoping it's not my TV. Also it was both on comcast & OTA.

This link (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds17003.html) will tell you more about what 9-2 is destined for.

If NBC is willing to pay affiliates to carry 9-2, you can bid farewell forever to full HD on 9-1, since, as we all know, HD doesn't bring in penny one to local stations...

("Consumer demand"? Riiiiighht... So many HD viewers are sitting there saying "I wish KUSA had a full-time weather channel clone making HD fuzzier...")

I've been viewing this site for approximately a month and decided to register tonight. I live in Highlands Ranch and have a Dish 811 receiver with a double bow tie outside anntenna approx 20 ft off the ground but not above and blocked by my roofline. The antenna is pointed at approx 315 degrees. Signal strength for the stations I receive is as follows:

Channel 2 - 73
Channel 4 - 69
Channel 5 - 72 (from Cheyenne)
Channel 6 - 83
Channel 7 - 65 (yes, I'm one of the lucky few that pick up KMGH)
Channel 9-1 and 9-2 - 81 (tonight's the first night I noticed 9-2 on the air)
Channel 31 - 72
Channel 38-1, 38-2, 38-3 - 80

All of the above channels lock. I can also occasionally pick up channel 21 from Ft. Collins but reception is sporadic and I receive channel 31 anyway. I also used to receive channel 29 (analog channel 25) but I haven't received a signal in the past month. I cannot receive channel 46 from Castle Rock although I have not tried to turn my antenna south - not interested in this channel anyway.

I had to call KMGH on Saturday to turn on the HD football broadcast. The engineer flipped the switch as we were talking. I also called KUSA Monday night to turn on HD for Leno, but they told me they were having "server" problems. Funny, since the newscast was OK in HD. I also called them Tuesday night for the same reason after a newscast in HD. Got the same answer but they switched on the HD at the first commercial break in Leno.

Does anyone know when KTVD will begin HD broadcasts?

If NBC is willing to pay affiliates to carry 9-2, you can bid farewell forever to full HD on 9-1
Ummmm, no.... First of all 9.2 has nothing to do with whatever is showing on 9.1, be it HD or SD. Secondly why would NBC want to be the only network on the planet in a few years when everyone will be HD except the religious channels and whatnot that nobody watches? If they want viewers, they will have HD. I've even seen commercials in true HD (mostly Target) so that is another reason HD won't go away.

Joe - sure, they'll call it "HD" on NBC from now on, but the bandwidth for 9.2 has to come from the 19.2mbps minimum that's needed for HD on 9.1, so if this channel is carried nationwide, NBC will not have full bandwidth HD presentation of their shows anywhere. Or, in short, this sucks.

milehighmike - markdl already told us why they're having problems with HD sent from NBC. The machine they use to record HD sent from NBC and then replay it at the right time for our time zone is having issues. That's why Jay couldn't be recorded/broadcast in HD, but their live HD news shows were OK. Come on, read all 10,000+ posts here before posting :p :D

I have noticed quite a few posts regarding stations failing to "flip the HD switch" so I thought I would let eveyone in on how our operation works at WB2 Colorado. Of course each station will handle things a little differently but the operation is basically the same.

Our normal operation is to upconvert the majority of our programming. We split our SD content from our Master Control switcher and feed it to our upconverter. This upconverted signal passes to an HD switcher that is tied to our automation system that controls a vary large portion of the devices used to supply our air signal. The automation is responsible for things such as rolling the proper tape machine or server with commercial or program content, routing crosspoints on our Master Control switcher and controlling squeeze backs and weather crawls. The information is generally input by our Traffic department but is also under the control of our Master Control operators. Anyway, when we receive HD programming, either from the WB or syndicate movie feed, the material is stored on both HD tape and an HD server. Because we are in the Mountain time zone we must run a one hour delay in the material fed by WB during prime time. The delay has benefits and weaknesses. The benefit is we can see problems before they hit air, in some cases, but we require more gear to store the material since we cannot pass the signal directly from a satellite feed. All of our HD sources are fed to our HD switcher and whenever a show is in HD, automation will switch to the proper crosspoint on the switcher and send the signal to the HD encoder and finally to our SMPTE 310 transport stream and off to the transmitter at Lookout Mountain.

If we have problems with an HD feed either received or during playback, our operators are instructed to switch to our upconverted feed immediately. As a whole, our automation is fairly stable and we seldom fail to "make the switch" to an HD program. If a known HD program is not available in HD for some reason it will be related to either a feed generated problem or record issue with either tape or the HD server. We have a unique situation where we have both tape and server so we can generally put the HD material on air if a playback device should fail.

Hope this helps in the understanding of the broadcast operation.

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
WB2 Colorado

Dave,

As always, your participation is valuable to us all. Thank you.

Jeff

Originally posted by milehighmike
Does anyone know when KTVD will begin HD broadcasts? mhm, KTVD won't do DTV until (if) the LCG tower gets built. They haven't said anything about a temporary setup like the other networks have.

Dave M. Thanks for the post on your HD operations. It's probably helpful to newbies here to understand the operations. Please tell me you have instituted a policy of no subchannels during true HD broadcasts, except for emergency broadcasts, severe weather etc.

I didn't notice 9-2 last night, but I didn't really look for it either. I'll check the broadcast rates tonight and let you all know. I do know that on Monday, 9-1 was still being sent at am 18.0 MB/s data rate. If KUSA is able to do their weather channel in 1.3 MB/s, and leave the rest of the stream for the HD channel, that'd be fine. I can't see any visible difference between recordings that I made from them when they were at 19.0 MB/s vs 18.0 MB/s. Drop it down to the 15 range, and then the difference will be noticible.

And, I agree - Dave, thanks muchly for the input! I believe that you're the only station in town running the tape system in addition to the server. If KUSA had been running tape, they should have been able to switch over to it when their HD server crashed on Monday night.

Just wanted to post my experience here.

I live in a 2 story town home condo near Arapahoe and Holly in Centennial. I have a Dish 811 receiver and an ota antenna in my attic.

At first I used a Wineguard pre-amp and was able to pull in all the locals except 7-ABC satisfactorily. I then experimented and removed the pre-amp, not only did my signal strength go up for all stations but I am now able to consistently receive 7-ABC.

My point is (and please excuse if it's been made before in one of the preceding 10000 posts), that experimentation is necessary and a pre-amp can sometimes make reception worse rather than better.

Just my 2c.

BigAl

I've seen references to a 'weather channel', but the only thing saw on 9-2 last night was a commercial for an industrial-strength DVR. Any idea when they may show something that could be worth the bits they are stealing?

It's a good thing KUSA isn't one of our outlets for HD football.

Ron,

I cannot give a definite answer as whether we will include a subchannel. One of the benefits of the HD stream is that it is a data stream and as such, has the ability to carry additional channels along with it. Several local stations are currently implementing this and it does carry some worth. The HD system was designed with this feature in mind and I would guess that everyone broadcasting an HD stream will eventually have subchannels containing a variety of content.

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

Originally posted by markdl
I didn't notice 9-2 last night, but I didn't really look for it either. I'll check the broadcast rates tonight and let you all know. I do know that on Monday, 9-1 was still being sent at am 18.0 MB/s data rate. If KUSA is able to do their weather channel in 1.3 MB/s, and leave the rest of the stream for the HD channel, that'd be fine. I can't see any visible difference between recordings that I made from them when they were at 19.0 MB/s vs 18.0 MB/s. Drop it down to the 15 range, and then the difference will be noticible.
This morning I was watching their HD 6am news pretty critically looking for flaws. The only thing I noticed was during full-screen graphic transitions, I think there was more blocking. I can't say for sure, since I usually don't watch the news looking for flaws. So I guess I have to reluctantly agree that going down to 18 mbps is probably going to look OK, but the purist in me says 19.3 is the only acceptable data rate.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
The HD system was designed with this feature in mind and I would guess that everyone broadcasting an HD stream will eventually have subchannels containing a variety of content.
Dave - thanks so much for your contribution here. I almost feel bad nitpicking, but I can't help myself.

The DTV system was designed with subchannels in mind. The HDTV system was really designed to work the best at 19.3 mbps. And although I agree that subchannels are probably inevitable, I hope everyone doesn't jump on the multicasting bandwidth sucking HD-lite bandwagon.

And for what it's worth -- the WB has probably been the most reliable station in town when it comes to flipping the switch. The only issue I've had recently has been some audio glitching during HD shows, which, ironically, has had me frustated that the switch to SD hasn't been thrown quickly enough :)

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
Ron,

I cannot give a definite answer as whether we will include a subchannel. One of the benefits of the HD stream is that it is a data stream and as such, has the ability to carry additional channels along with it. Several local stations are currently implementing this and it does carry some worth. The HD system was designed with this feature in mind and I would guess that everyone broadcasting an HD stream will eventually have subchannels containing a variety of content.

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

Hi Dave, I'll echo others' thanks for your participation.

I have a question. How does (will) stations handle SAP or second language audio in ATSC broadcasts?

I THOUGHT KWGN was going to do something with PSIP to do SAP like stuff on 2.2 but that the video portion of 2-2 would be the same bits used for the video portion of 2-1. Is this way off? Just curious.

Thanks, Greg

Greg,

SAP is usually received on the third audio channel of an analog feed or embedded in an SDI stream. In our HD stream we insert our SAP onto a second AES audio pair into our HD encoder as part of 2-1. For a time we had a sub channel (2-2) that we designated our SAP channel but we have decided that we could just insert SAP onto our 2-1 stream. Currently there are only a few programs that contain SAP information and when we do not have SAP we simply insert a mono audio signal. SAP can be extracted from most HD receivers by selecting Spanish in the Prefrences in the menu system. PSIP will carry any information related to a Second Audio Program.

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

Dr_Mal,

The audio issues you speak of were related to issues we experienced with 5.1 AC-3 audio. Specifically, we had problems related to our HD server and a different problem with our HD tape decks. As both products were relatively new, its possible that AC-3 compatibility was not fully tested on the units. Of course this became an issue when we began receiving AC-3 audio from the WB. The WB has since had problems with transmitting AC-3 and thus, discontinued providing AC-3 audio until the problem is resolved. I have been working with the vendors of our HD equipment to resolve the playback problems we experienced. We hope to return to the broadcast of AC-3 audio in the near future.

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

Thanks again Dave!

Gilmore Girls and Smallville have been on reruns for so long, I couldn't remember for sure if the audio problems had been resolved. Thanks for the info!

(jm - you missed first spot on the page :p)

:D
And I was hoping to be first that time!!

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

Originally posted by bigalbklyn
My point is (and please excuse if it's been made before in one of the preceding 10000 posts), that experimentation is necessary and a pre-amp can sometimes make reception worse rather than better. It has been made many times before, but it is also worth repeating often. Most within the metro area report exactly as you do. On the fringe however, a small amount of pre-amp usually helps. In my case (just into Elbert Co.) I can't get anything from RP without a 10-13db assist.

Dave M.,
Regarding multicasting, "Just Say No"! At least during high profile HD broadcasts. I don't care what you do during the day.;)

Hi Dave!
I know you've been great answering many questions today, but I have one more quick one.
Is it possible to change (or better yet) automate the bitrate being sent out on your main and sub-channels? So, this way you could allocate more on the 2-1 during primetime hours when viewership is highest.

Ernie,

We cannot automate the bit rate. The bit rates are generally set by the HD encoder and can be varied but not really automated, at least with ours. I am not sure if any of the encoder manufacturers and looking at the ability to change bit rates "on the fly". Usually changing the encoder bit rate involves going through a variety of menus, changing the setting and uploading the info to the encoder. With some encoders it requires a reboot or perhaps a restart of the encoder itself to initiate the change. May be possible in the future but at this time we just set the bit rate for what the encoder can gracefully handle. Technology will change and encoders will get better but we need to remember how long it took to make NTSC perfect. Or are we still trying??

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

NTSC perfect
I have never seen those two words next to each other before.

Now, to figure out why some people here can turn on closed captioning on WB HD programming and some can't.

I have an LG LST-3410a and I can turn on closed captions just fine on other HD channels but it never used to work on WB2.

I have to admit I haven't tried since Gilmore Girls went into reruns...

(As a reference, I detailed the difference between KWGN-DT and other stations when it came to CC info in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printpost.php?postid=4766843)...

So, KUSA has a problem with their table settings it looks like. My hipix is reporting that 9-1 is being sent at 80.000 MB/s, and 9-2 is being sent at 3.479 MB/s. 9-2 is a 704x480i 4:3 channel, exactly the same as KRMA sends during the day.

Assuming a maximum data rate of 19.319 MB/s, 9-1 is not being sent at 15.84 MB/s. The rate reduction probably won't be visible except during fast cuts or fast motion, but it's something that we all need to be on the lookout for.

I sent Don a note with all of this earlier this evening. We'll see what he responds with.

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
I have never seen those two words next to each other before. If you've never seen good NTSC, you've missed a treat.

Really, if most people saw high bandwidth NTSC direct from a good C-Band feed (or better yet, a high bandwidth Ku-band feed like NBC's back in the mid-1990s) you would swear you were watching HD.

Alas, most people only see NTSC as a ghost-filled OTA signal due to lack of proper antenna pointng/placement or after their cable company gets done filling it with crud.

We won't even talk about the damage digial cable or worse yet, E* or D* do to the picture...

Originally posted by markdl
So, KUSA has a problem with their table settings it looks like. My hipix is reporting that 9-1 is being sent at 80.000 MB/s, and 9-2 is being sent at 3.479 MB/s.If 9-1 is really being sent at 80MB/s, they do have a problem... :D

(Ah, I wish - too bad they can't transmit full uncompressed D5 HD; anyone who's ever seen a demo of NHK HD knows what that can look like...)

Originally posted by kucharsk
If you've never seen good NTSC, you've missed a treat.

Really, if most people saw high bandwidth NTSC direct from a good C-Band feed (or better yet, a high bandwidth Ku-band feed like NBC's back in the mid-1990s) you would swear you were watching HD.

Alas, most people only see NTSC as a ghost-filled OTA signal due to lack of proper antenna pointng/placement or after their cable company gets done filling it with crud.

We won't even talk about the damage digial cable or worse yet, E* or D* do to the picture... Well I think swearing it's HD is over the top but good NTSC is decent. Good NTSC and DVD are pretty close but I'll take HD over either.

One of the reasons I don't pay D* for locals is I get great, ghost free NTSC for free. Wish I good get ATSC for free around here but I digress.....

Personally I feel that 19mbps is unacceptable for HD... at least for MPEG2. All of the OTA HD stuff I see looks good, just as long as nothing is moving. But if there is a fade in or out or a dissolve, oh my god! Suddenly my active resolution is about 16x9 (total blocky pixels). Or if the camera moves or if there is a strobe light... forget about it. Waaaaaay below broadcast quality in my opinion. Hopefully MPEG2 encoders will get better as time progresses and stations will upgrade.

And I'm sure the AC3 rate is nowhere near 384kbps or 448kbps like on DVD. I'm guessing it is 224kbps for 5.1. Yes, I am a bit disappointed with OTA HDTV so far.

Just got off the phone with Don Perez. I think that I may not be able to read their data rates anymore...KUSA is using real-time statistical multiplexing to dynamically adjust the data rate being used by 9-1 and 9-2 based on video content. When the VTR commercial gets replaced with the weather subchannel here in a couple of weeks, he expects the weather channel to take around 3 MB/s average, and leave around 16 MB/s for the HD.

He finally broke down and recently picked up an HDTV himself, and talking to him this morning was very much like talking to one of us when we first went HD - about how you never want to go back and how you'll watch whatever just because it's HD...kind of like the kid in the candy store.

They'll be working out the kinks over the next couple of weeks as new equipment get installed, so if anyone sees anthing amiss, he'd like to hear about it.

I find the KUSA wait for de-fuzz as a result of camera changes (very noticable on Leno) to be as annoying as going back to a 56K modem would be for web browsing. I don't think anything we say would change the importance placed on multicasting. If an occasional check on their weather channel is a more profitable model for them than for me to watch network and news on their channel, then they are going in the right direction. Maybe the model for broadcasters is to become MSOs so we'll be able to watch 100's of channels on our low-rez cell phones while driving about, while the large screen apps go to Tivo, DVD, less-constrained cable and sat channels, and games. If they really want to be based on network viewing then they need to be compatible with the ever-increasing large screen in the home, and fuzzing the picture or macro-blocking it is not the way to go. At least don't multicast until better codecs are in place. It seems clear to me that we face a losing battle in desperately clutching on to the TV model of days gone past where it was a provider of entertainment after a day's work. As far as NTSC goes, KWGN's upconvert of their news is the best I've seen, and better than some HD-lite on D*. Their consistent good PQ, proper aspect ratio, and ease of reception has brought me to finding they also have the best (IMO) news/weather/sports team.

KUSA is using real-time statistical multiplexing to dynamically adjust the data rate being used by 9-1 and 9-2 based on video content. Translated to english...

KUSA is using blah-blah, blah to blah, blah adjust the blah, blah being used by 9-blah, and 9-blah based on blah, content. Just kiddin' Mark! ;)

Ernie, :D (This from one of the more technical guys around here...)

One more thing from Don - he just got back to me saying that they are now seeing the 80.000 MB/s data rate reading on their side as well, and are now contacting their software vendor to find out what's going wrong.

OK, I finally noticed that fuzzy-sharp fade-in on the news this morning everytime they changed cameras. Ick.

The only reason I started watching 9News again was because it was in HD. 16mbps is not HD. :mad:

Teh fuzzy fade-ins aren't a result of 16 MB/s. They're a result of the variable bit rate allocation that's going on. I mentioned that to Don this morning as well, and he's going to be watching for it closely now, and either get it fixed or go back to a constant bit rate for both channels until they get it fixed.

BTW - thanks Mark for being our liaison with Don. I'm sure he appreciates it more than having us all call him directly, too.

I understand the fuzzy fade-in being a result of the variable bitrate allocation, but what happens when the weather channel goes on the air if the variable bitrate allocator decides the weather channel needs 3 Mb/s all (or most of) the time? Will 9-1 be stuck in fuzzy mode? I would think the sharpening of the picture we're seeing now is when 9-1 is allocated more than 16 Mb/s. Or am I missing something?

No, the fuzziness I think is being caused by those split second transition shots being given <1 MB/s, and then when it's jumped back up to 15-16, that's when the studio shots come into focus again. Right now, their VTR loop is pulling between 3 and 3.5 MB/s, and when the studio shots are in focus, they still look good. I think there's a minute break in the data flow when the remote feeds are switched back to the studio feed, and I think that break in the data flow is what's causing the hiccup in the VBR encoder. But, that's just an uninformed speculative opinion. :)

Hey look - I'm first! Haven't been first on the page in a long time...

Originally posted by markdl
No, the fuzziness I think is being caused by those split second transition shots being given <1 MB/s, and then when it's jumped back up to 15-16, that's when the studio shots come into focus again. Right now, their VTR loop is pulling between 3 and 3.5 MB/s, and when the studio shots are in focus, they still look good. I think there's a minute break in the data flow when the remote feeds are switched back to the studio feed, and I think that break in the data flow is what's causing the hiccup in the VBR encoder. But, that's just an uninformed speculative opinion. :)
That makes sense. In any case, I'm glad Don is looking into it. I'm sure he'll have it resolved soon. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who wants his product to look like crap.

Originally posted by dr_mal
That makes sense. In any case, I'm glad Don is looking into it. I'm sure he'll have it resolved soon. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who wants his product to look like crap. Too bad he can't fix that stations self serving attitude. Maybe then I'd actually try to tune in.

Also according to Don, the reason that Leno sometimes fails to start in HD is because of a computer automation problem and it's interaction with the HD server, and as a result it does not trigger the HD properly. So maybe there isn't an actual human "flippin' da switch" after all. They say they've done a bunch of software upgrades and whatnot and part of the problem could lie there.

I've been getting a very weak signal from KCNC 35-1 the last 24 hours or so. Signal strength ranges from 28 to 46 when it is normally 84 and I can't get a lock. Channel 16 is steady at 94. Channel 18 is steady at 88. This is on both DTC-100s fed by a splitter from the same Yagi.

Is anyone else seeing a problem?

Edit: crawled up in the attic and tweaked direction from SSW to almost directly South which is slightly east of downtown. 16 went from 94 to 92, 18 stayed at 88, and 35 went from 28 to a steady 70. Lost 38 again. WB and Fox both OK in the 70s. Wierd. Must be a little bit of weather variation with the low power signals. Also, (wild speculation) I might be in a null spot of the 3 directional lobes which might account for the variations I get over time.

Don

AkaStp, How YOU doing?
We watched it with no problems.

I often see out of sync sound, but only with KCNC's upconverted stuff (like during their news, which has horrible echo-ey sound to begin with).

Also I'd like to agree with whoever said that KWGN's upconverting looks the best (it used to be the worst, by far). Looks like they bought the correct equipment. KUSA's upconverting looks awful. It loses a lot of color and is dot crawl/flicker city. Just look at the maps during their weather segments. Ew. It's like they're feeding composite straight in to the upconverter. Composite = bad. KDVR's upconverting adds a horizontal stretch which makes it look like ass. I guess the technicians don't watch their own stations or don't know what looks good.

OK, so I have been experimenting with this OTA HD thing for a few weeks now. There have been quite a lot of variation in the ability for me to consistantly get glitch free reception. Things seemed to be fine over that last couple of weeks. The only station that I have had problems with (other than KMGH) is KCNC, but I do get KGWN instead reliably.

I noticed something yesterday that I'm wondering your opinion on. For KUSA, I get a solid 71% on the signal quality meter. For KGWN, I get a solid 68%. These channels over the past couple of weeks have been fine...not much pixelation or sound drops. However, yesterday, on both channels (mostly KUSA and some on KGWN), I noticed quite a bit. When I checked the signal meter, they were both at the normal steady 71% and 68% respectively.

What is your guess as to what this could be? Multipathing that only show up at certain times? Does multipathing USUALLY affect the signal meter (I was assuming that is what the case is with KCNC since it always bounces around from 20% to 45%, and occasionally hits 100%). Or, is it more likely some "atmospheric" thing that will happen from time to time?

I wonder...since I'm ~40 miles from the Denver stations and ~40 miles from Cheyenne...if a preamp will help. I can't imagine that with the low power of the current stations, the distance I am from the towers and the 100' RG6 I use from the antenna to the STB, that I would oversaturate the receiver using a preamp.

Thanks for all of your comments! It has been a great help so far reading this forum and getting suggestions!

Not sure why, but I've noticed this week on KGWN. Nasty breakups during NCIS and then last night on both CSI and Without a Trace. NCIS was unwatchable after about 30 minutes. CSI and WaT were on and off bad.

Originally posted by mikeaco
I wonder...since I'm ~40 miles from the Denver stations and ~40 miles from Cheyenne...if a preamp will help. I can't imagine that with the low power of the current stations, the distance I am from the towers and the 100' RG6 I use from the antenna to the STB, that I would oversaturate the receiver using a preamp.
Over the frequenciess that you are trying to receive(roughly 470-600), you're looking at around 4-6db loss for 100' of average RG-6 cable. So a good preamp should eliminate that loss.

What kind(size) of antenna are you using?

A preamp can't hurt! How many times have I heard this? Most of the people here know that it indeed can make things worse. However, at 40 miles, other than getting a bigger antenna, a preamp is the 1st thing that I would try.

Good Luck,
....jc

It's possible that the signal breakups are weather related as well - from 2.5 miles away from downtown Denver, I consistently get 10% higher signal readings when it's warm(er) outside (40 degrees +) as opposed to when it's colder.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Over the frequenciess that you are trying to receive(roughly 470-600), you're looking at around 4-6db loss for 100' of average RG-6 cable. So a good preamp should eliminate that loss.

That's what I'm thinking. I'm using a QS RG6, so hopefully, all that I'm losing is within the range you mention. Right now, I have the antenna connected directly to the STB. So, no losses from any splitters in the path. I did try an experiment where I added a splitter to the line to see how that affected the signal meter. I saw slight losses (10%) on some of the stronger channels. Others that are usually in the 60's for me were affected a lot more. So, I don't think that I'm currently oversaturated and need to use an attenuator.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
What kind(size) of antenna are you using?

Originally, I started with a Rat Shak VHF/UHF/FM large (10') directional. Then I tried the UHF only silver sensor. Both are in my attic. For $20, the Silver Sensor got the same reception (if not a few points better) as the Rat Shack, added KGWN and is more mobile if I would ever need to move it.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
A preamp can't hurt! How many times have I heard this? Most of the people here know that it indeed can make things worse. However, at 40 miles, other than getting a bigger antenna, a preamp is the 1st thing that I would try.

Not that I've experienced it, but from what I've read, I know that a preamp CAN hurt more than help. I think that I will try one out, especially because I'm thinking of splitting my antenna signal eventually. CM 7775 or 7777 here I come!

Originally posted by markdl
It's possible that the signal breakups are weather related as well - from 2.5 miles away from downtown Denver, I consistently get 10% higher signal readings when it's warm(er) outside (40 degrees +) as opposed to when it's colder.

It's definitely been freezing cold and higher humidity (foggy) recently. When it gets warmer I'd like to try walking aroung on my 2nd story roof with Siver Sensor in hand!

Thanks!

Five of the seven Denver DTV channels are such low power that beyond about 5 miles there isn't any way you are going to saturate the signal with a good pre-amp. The other two, maybe, if you are close enough and with a direct LOS. If you are that worried about it, buy a RS variable attenuator (very cheap, but it works) and fine tune your particular channels. I'm about ten miles from the sources and use two attic antennas, both w/ pre-amps to feed DTS and analog to my Dish 811, analog to my Sammy DLP's antenna (best NTSC I ever saw) and to the two NTSC tuners on my JVC DVD-R/VCR combo, and FM to my A/V Receiver amp. The only over-saturation I see is with analog channels 7 and 9. I use the RS attenuator to knock them down about 10 db to get the best color presentation. Now if there was just an attenuator for the ghosts.

Noticed that KBDI switched back to virtual channels 12-1, -2, -3, from 38 yesterday. Over the past year they seem to change back and forth about every 3 months. What's up with that? I do watch a little of their main channel coverage, they had some good concert video just before New Year's eve. Interestingly, with my most recent antenna directional alignments, their signal strength is in the 90's like KUSA's. My weakest remains Fox in the mid-70's. I can see KMGH's signal, but can't lock it. I'm down next to the Ralston Creek creek bed, so I think that there is just too much high ground between them and me.

Regarding the lower bit rate on KUSA, I noticed a softening of their PQ on the evening news this week, but nothing on Leno, which is one of the sharpest HD pictures available. Since they don't have any NFL coverage, they will probably get away with lite-HD. There primetime HD is generally so soft that I wouldn't notice a drop in PQ. Too bad their local new HD PQ is probably going to endure the most obvious deterioration.

Thanks CEB, good suggestions.

Originally posted by CEB II
Regarding the lower bit rate on KUSA, I noticed a softening of their PQ on the evening news this week, but nothing on Leno, which is one of the sharpest HD pictures available. Since they don't have any NFL coverage, they will probably get away with lite-HD. There primetime HD is generally so soft that I wouldn't notice a drop in PQ. Too bad their local new HD PQ is probably going to endure the most obvious deterioration.

I would agree. To me, the primetime HD programming is very soft compared to live events like sports and Channel 9's news as well as pre-recorded studio stuff like Leno. I too probably won't notice too much of a drop in the "film-like" appearance of the prime time shows. With the slow-moving news and Leno broadcasts, the bitrate reduction will most likey not bother me, even if I do notice it (now don't get me wrong...I'm not advocating the change at all). On the other hand, sports (fast moving action) is where it will probably start to get annoying. But, what sports broadcasts are on NBC nowadays?

Originally posted by CEB II
[B]Five of the seven Denver DTV channels are such low power that beyond about 5 miles there isn't any way you are going to saturate the signal with a good pre-amp. That would be true if those were the only signals your antenna was picking up. Most antennas have some gain in any direction and can therefore pick up all sorts of signals. An amp will amplify all of those signals and if it overloads on any signal it affects the quality of all of the signals. Many things can happen when an amp overloads but one thing you can bet on is that intermodulation distortion rises significantly.

Personally I tend to thing the popular Channel Master Amp has way too much gain for many applications. The Winegard SS amp has much lower gain and should be adequate for many. It will certainly overcome cable loss and the fact that it has lower gain means it's going to take more signal input to overload it.

Just thinking about 9-2 found me frustrated last night; NBC must indeed be paying a fair amount to get stations to do this, otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever.

Consider that most people with HD sets are by nature early tech adopters. Is there anyone out there that, if they desire weather information, wouldn't just go to the NWS' or station's web sites and get the information immediately rather than have to wait around for the subchannel to present the information they want?

I'm not too bummed, though, as I find myself watching ever decreasing amounts of NBC these days anyway; I know a more than a few people who say Leno and Kathy Sabine in HD are the only reasons to watch KUSA-DT. :D

Originally posted by kucharsk
Just thinking about 9-2 found me frustrated last night; NBC must indeed be paying a fair amount to get stations to do this, otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever.
It's KUSA's decision to carry WeatherPlus, and it's a business decision. NBC is not paying them to carry it, and on the other hand KUSA is not paying for it either. It's 'free' to all NBC affiliates, and both NBC and the affiliate split the revenues equally. It does come with a cost of about $110k for the equipment, which includes graphic forecast products and automation gear.

So, it's the SOS in corporate America. To hell with quality, show me the money.

....jc
ps. I can't get their signal yet, but someday I'll have WeatherPlus! Yahoo!

Originally posted by kucharsk
I'm not too bummed, though, as I find myself watching ever decreasing amounts of NBC these days anyway; I know a more than a few people who say Leno and Kathy Sabine in HD are the only reasons to watch KUSA-DT. :D Kathy I can believe but JAY?!?! :eek:

That would be true if those were the only signals your antenna was picking up. Most antennas have some gain in any direction and can therefore pick up all sorts of signals. An amp will amplify all of those signals and if it overloads on any signal it affects the quality of all of the signals. Many things can happen when an amp overloads but one thing you can bet on is that intermodulation distortion rises significantly.

If all sorts of signals from non-pointed directions were such a concern, pre-amps would never be used, even for NTSC reception. However, only in rare situations are other signal sources generated in the VHF/UHF band that are multiples stronger than the VHF/UHF signals of interest and then are at frequencies that generate IMD at the DTV frequency of interest. In other words, while it could be a problem, it generally isn't.

Personally I tend to thing the popular Channel Master Amp has way too much gain for many applications. The Winegard SS amp has much lower gain and should be adequate for many. It will certainly overcome cable loss and the fact that it has lower gain means it's going to take more signal input to overload it.

You may be correct about the over-kill of many popular pre-amps (I recently switched from RS pre-amps to CM pre-amps w/ little noticeable change except a superior FM trap. I think the slightly lower amplification of the CM pre-amp was offset by its lower noise), but they generally don't cause a problem with DTV signals unless the antenna configuration had a significant multi-path (ghost) problem to begin with or the ATSC receiver is of early vintage. The FCC tested for situations of strong signal competition with expected weaker DTV signals, particularly in the UHF band, and prescibed standards for ATSC receivers/tuners accordingly. Their expectation for UHf signals was for high gain from the antenna, via pre-amp in many cases. In addition, the receivers/tuners are to be far more robust and discriminating than their NTSC counterparts in dealing with high strength competing signals in adjacent frequencies. The later generation ATSC tuners seem to be heading in just that direction.

My personal experience with antennas, pre-amps, and tuners has been consistent with the foregoing. Without pre-amps, at my 10 mile distance and lacking good LOS to any of the transmitters, I get one DTV channel, 16. I get fair reception of analog channels 7 and 9. With the pre-amps, I get strong signals on 6 of our 7 DTV channels. I had a multi-path problem with Channels 32 and 34 due to my 2 antennas. But, I worked around it by re-pointing my downtown UHF antenna to minimize its reception of 32 and 34 w/o losing much signal from 16, 18, and 35. The only place signal overload is showing up as a problem is with NTSC reception on Channels 7 and 9. Remember NTSC receivers were never expected to handle strong signals like ATSC receivers. I'm still tinkering with those VHF NTSC signals. I don't get them all well w/o the pre-amp, so I may add some attenuation at the input to the pre-amp to pre-tune to the best signal strength from all 6 VHF NTSC channels.

Originally posted by CEB II
Regarding the lower bit rate on KUSA, I noticed a softening of their PQ on the evening news this week, but nothing on Leno, which is one of the sharpest HD pictures available.
No way! Leno has always been pretty fuzzy. Especially around the edges of objects and people. Apparently it is a digital feed from NBC and it gets compressed again by KUSA due to the time delay. Now granted HD Leno is much sharper than SD Leno, but I do think the picture quality could be better on that program. Also whenever they do something outside of the studio (like Jaywalking, etc) they always resort to EDTV cameras.

PS - I am the first poster on this page, therefore I own it. Anyone else who posts on this page must offer a $$$ contribution to me of between $10 and $100 per post. Thank you.

Originally posted by Joe Redifer PS - I am the first poster on this page, therefore I own it. Anyone else who posts on this page must offer a $$$ contribution to me of between $10 and $100 per post. Thank you. I'll give you a bond, payable when LCG-II goes live. You can collect it from my heirs.

Originally posted by CEB II
If all sorts of signals from non-pointed directions were such a concern, pre-amps would never be used, even for NTSC reception. However, only in rare situations are other signal sources generated in the VHF/UHF band that are multiples stronger than the VHF/UHF signals of interest and then are at frequencies that generate IMD at the DTV frequency of interest. In other words, while it could be a problem, it generally isn't. Generally isn't? Where'd you come up with that? Once an amp is overloaded and generating all sorts of IM products the quality of the output signal goes to crap.
In your case you may be pointing towards downtown and have signals from Lookout in the rear view mirror (so to speak). If that's the case Lookout signals may be low in amplitude (depending on the gain characteristics of your antenna).

Preamps have their place and are suitable for some installations, but certainly not all.

EDIT: Nice try Joe but no cigar.....or money.

Originally posted by PAW
Kathy I can believe but JAY?!?! :eek: I guess I should rephrase that as The Tonight Show... :D

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
No way! Leno has always been pretty fuzzy. Especially around the edges of objects and people. Apparently it is a digital feed from NBC and it gets compressed again by KUSA due to the time delay. Now granted HD Leno is much sharper than SD Leno, but I do think the picture quality could be better on that program. Also whenever they do something outside of the studio (like Jaywalking, etc) they always resort to EDTV cameras.
I'm going to have to disagree. IMHO The Tonight Show is some of the best HD available on TV - it's always been my personal reference. Comparatively, all the filmed shows in HD are a bit soft, and football games certainly don't look any better.

Whenever they do go outside the studio, they generally go 4:3, but the in-studio 16:9 is IMHO reference quality and the only thing I've ever seen that's better have been KTLA's Rose Parade broadcasts (as seen on Discovery HD and, this year, KWGN-DT...)

I watched the 6 pm news on KUSA tonight. The HD picture is definitely worse than I remember seeing it. Not sharp and the colors were more drab. Bummer.

I think I will send Don Perez an email if it doesn't improve by next week.

Originally posted by kucharsk
I'm going to have to disagree.This is not allowed.
Originally posted by kucharsk
IMHO The Tonight Show is some of the best HD available on TV - it's always been my personal reference. Comparatively, all the filmed shows in HD are a bit soft, and football games certainly don't look any better.
Not all of the filmed shows are soft. Well, all of the ones I see on WB seem to be, and so do several TV shows on other networks. CSI (regular) seems pretty damn sharp. I watched that Thursday and it looked amazing, especially the helicoptor shots of the city. CSI: Miami can look pretty good as well. CSI: NY looked like ass the one time I watched it. The quality of sports games is give or take. Sometimes they look pretty good, very sharp, etc. Other times they look unwatchable (Olympics). For some reason Fox's 720p football games look better than the CBS 1080i football games I've seen.

When Leno comes on, sit close to your TV and look at the edges of his face, etc. Watch as how Leno bobs back and forth and the camera pans to keep up with him, the buildings in the background shimmer (this only happens sometimes). Also the entire beginning of the show inside panning the crowds with colored lights, etc is pixel-city (re: unacceptably low quality. Simply unacceptable. And unprofessional as well). Personally I like detail over sharpness. If you prefer shaprness to detail, that could be where we differ.

mikeaco wrote:

Originally, I started with a Rat Shak VHF/UHF/FM large (10') directional. Then I tried the UHF only silver sensor. Both are in my attic. For $20, the Silver Sensor got the same reception (if not a few points better) as the Rat Shack, added KGWN and is more mobile if I would ever need to move it.

So you are getting that kind of reception with an indoor antennae (Silver Sensor) from 40 miles away in Loveland? What part of Loveland are you in?

WOW, I've been on AVS for 2 years now and had no idea there were so many people in colorado on the forum . I post in the CRT Front Projection forum but it look like I need to get out more. I mounted an antenna on my roof months ago but have been reluctant to follow through and add an HD card to my HTPC. Since there are so many people in this thread it looks like maybe it's time to move forward since everyone here obviously finds HD broadcast in CO worth persuing? Anyone else here projecting or is it TVs exclusively?

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
TWhen Leno comes on, sit close to your TV and look at the edges of his face, etc. Watch as how Leno bobs back and forth and the camera pans to keep up with him, the buildings in the background shimmer (this only happens sometimes). Also the entire beginning of the show inside panning the crowds with colored lights, etc is pixel-city (re: unacceptably low quality. Simply unacceptable. And unprofessional as well). Personally I like detail over sharpness. If you prefer shaprness to detail, that could be where we differ. Yeah, but at the same time I've seen the same artifacts on many other HD presentations and much of it is the unfortunate limitations of ATSC shining through.

One example is the pixillation to which you refer; there are moments in the CSI: credits each week that also pixellate badly, due to more fast motion than the compression can handle.

The Tonight Show isn't perfect, but it's the main program that has made those I've introduced to HD sit up and say "wow"...

dragnm,

There aren't too many FP CRT users left. But, there's a pretty good group of DLP, LCD & LCOS PJ users. I have a Marantz PJ, and am itching for a Qualia bad!

DVD on a PJ is great... But, OTA HD is well worth persuing. As the amount of network HD in the last year has been great. Not sure of the reception in Brighton, but Dr. Mal lives out there with you, maybe he can fill you in on OTA reception.

Originally posted by draganm
WOW, I've been on AVS for 2 years now and had no idea there were so many people in colorado on the forum . I post in the CRT Front Projection forum but it look like I need to get out more. I mounted an antenna on my roof months ago but have been reluctant to follow through and add an HD card to my HTPC. Since there are so many people in this thread it looks like maybe it's time to move forward since everyone here obviously finds HD broadcast in CO worth persuing? Anyone else here projecting or is it TVs exclusively?

I use a projector in my home theater. It's a panasonic lcd. It won't touch the contrast or black levels of your crt, but sports and nature shows are eye-popping. There are definitely a bunch of others using projectors. I also started out in the projector threads long ago and have migrated to the Denver thread now as I am always looking for more HD content.

Hey draganm - welcome to the thread! I live in the vicinity of Hwy 85 and Bromley up here. With my roof-mounted antenna, I can reliably get all the local HDTV OTA channels except KMGH, which is rumoured to be broadcasting a digital channel to a handful of people :) IMO, well worth the effort.

Originally posted by Mtnmike
So you are getting that kind of reception with an indoor antennae (Silver Sensor) from 40 miles away in Loveland? What part of Loveland are you in?

Yep! I was pretty surprised too. I didn't expect to get all that I do from inside (2nd story attic). I especially didn't think that the Silver Sensor, which is all of 12" long by 8" tall by 8" wide to do as well as it is. I now have a preamp on the way, for better or for worse, so we'll see what happens...

I live in SW Loveland, just South of CR14 off of Taft.

Interesting.

There aren't too many FP CRT users left. But, there's a pretty good group of DLP, LCD & LCOS PJ users. I have a Marantz PJ, and am itching for a Qualia bad! Well FP is FP, and in this forum I will keep my religious CRT fanaticism to myself :D I would LOVE to see a HD2K LCOS or Qualia in action, I hear they have even the best CRTs beat in all parameteres except on/off CR and black level. Of course if I had $30K I would probably buy a new car:D . I don't see myself firing up the HT for commercial television but some of the stuff broadcast by PBS like Soundstage, Austin City Limits concerts and NOVA in HD would be awesome. I use a projector in my home theater. It's a panasonic lcd. It won't touch the contrast or black levels of your crt, but sports and nature shows are eye-popping. well if I watched a lot of broadcast (sports in particular) I would add a fixed Pixel display too, the thought of logo burn on my pristine tubes is too much to bear. My primary fixation is the beauty of well transfered film , like Lord of the Rings. I think any projection is great and I can remeber only dreaming of a 7 foot screen 10 years ago.Hey draganm - welcome to the thread! I live in the vicinity of Hwy 85 and Bromley up here. With my roof-mounted antenna, I can reliably get all the local HDTV OTA channels except KMGH, which is rumoured to be broadcasting a digital channel to a handful o hey Doc, you're like walking distance away.:) I live just east of the county building on Jessup, i'm guessing you are in the neighborhood by Albertsons? What are you using to get the signal into your system after the antenna, I imagine some kind of set-top decoder box?
Nice to meet all of you BTW.

I don't see myself firing up the HT for commercial television but some of the stuff broadcast by PBS like Soundstage, Austin City Limits concerts and NOVA in HD would be awesome.Don't dismiss all 'commercial' programing. You're missing some great shows! (Content & PQ). HBO's Carnivale, Six Feet Under. HDNet has awesome music/concert pgms. CSI-LV is always breathtaking and interesting. (At least as good as many NOVA's I've watched)

Come on... 'Slum' it a little ;)

P.S. Did I mention 'Bikini Destinations' on HDNet ~ Grrrrrrr!

Originally posted by mikeaco
Yep! I was pretty surprised too. I didn't expect to get all that I do from inside (2nd story attic). I especially didn't think that the Silver Sensor, which is all of 12" long by 8" tall by 8" wide to do as well as it is. I now have a preamp on the way, for better or for worse, so we'll see what happens...

I have a Silver Sensor sitting on the windowsill of my ground-level condo with a Winegard AP-4800 28db preamp. That should be WAY overkill, but it doesn't seem to overload my receiver. Without the preamp I couldn't find any single antenna position that would get me the channels that I don't get from Comcast without having to get up and reaim the antenna. Since I added the preamp I haven't had to move it for KWGN, KBDI, and KKTU (MIA for a few months.) KDVR also comes in without any problem. I'm pretty sure I'm picking up reflected signals though, since the magic position is ESE, aimed away from all the towers.

Originally posted by draganm
hey Doc, you're like walking distance away.:) I live just east of the county building on Jessup, i'm guessing you are in the neighborhood by Albertsons? What are you using to get the signal into your system after the antenna, I imagine some kind of set-top decoder box?
Yup, I'm in the Platte River Ranch development just down the street from Albertson's.

I've got a single run of RG6 coax (broken only where it's grounded) going directly into the back of my HR10-250 (HD TiVo). I started off with the RCA DTC-100, but needed a way to timeshift, so moved to a HTPC with a HiDTV Pro card which worked well enough for a while, but when the HD TiVo got released, I was among the first to receive one (#79 IIRC) last Spring. Haven't looked back since.

I've got a single run of RG6 coax (broken only where it's grounded) going directly into the back of my HR10-250 (HD TiVo). I started off with the RCA DTC-100, but needed a way to timeshift, so moved to a HTPC with a HiDTV Pro card which worked well enou hmm, well I'm not sure I uinderstand all that but it sounds like you guys are all paying for some kind of cable service and also running a roof antenna? I have to admit i'm kind of a dunce with this stuff. (can't help it, took me months to optimize my CRT projection system and then got into repairing and selling them:( It was quite the investment in time and willpower. Consequently I'm way behind with the other unfinished aspects of my theatre, like HD. I do know the HD cards for HTPC have 2 inputs, do you guys switch between cable and OTA that way? Doc if you know HTPC and HD cards then you're a guy I need to get to know.
Ernie I can't bring myself to pay for cable, just rubs me the wrong way. You have a nice theatre and I remember you from other forums. I see your suffering from the same white cielings as me. During bright scenes my 8" CRT machine lights up my white ceiling like a sunny day, drives me crazy.

Heh. Basically what I said is that I have one cable which runs from my antenna to my receiver. It's not split or coupled anywhere except in the one spot where it's grounded outside.

I'm also paying for D* for now.

You really need to get into HD -- no reason to have a home theatre without HD :)

The only reason to mess with a HTPC is to timeshift programming. If you're not interested in that, I hear WalMart sells a basic HDTV receiver for a couple hundred bucks.

Draganm,
The while ceiling isn't a problem, as the walls are dark, the screen is almost 4' down from the ceiling and it's a firehawk gray color. The off axis spill onto the ceiling is very low. Not enough to bother painting a silly dark color. We use the room for other things not just HT.

And I'm on Dish Network, not cable. But don't tell Comcast, as I'm about to produce a series of national TV spots for them! ;)

Originally posted by santellavision
Don't dismiss all 'commercial' programing. You're missing some great shows! (Content & PQ). HBO's Carnivale, Six Feet Under. HDNet has awesome music/concert pgms. CSI-LV is always breathtaking and interesting. (At least as good as many NOVA's I've watched)
Not to mention the real reason that HD was invented - football! The Colts/Pats game today was awesome. We've still got one more week of playoffs plus the SB.

PBS has been somewhat disappointing lately, IMHO. Seems like we only get a handful of new HD show per month, repeated endlessly. Plus KRMA cut out some of the best stuff by extending their simulcast schedule last spring.

Though the teams weren't of much interest to me and the outcomes even less, the two NFL playoff broadcasts today were excellent. The Colts/Pats game was the best I've seen on CBS this season or last. But, Fox's broadcast was super. Maybe it is just because my Sammy DLP is 720p native, but the Fox broadcast was as sharp and color deep as the best of football on ESPN-HD, which I thought was the gold standard.

While I love CSI, I'm somewhat disappointed in their soft HD; although, it may be the director's choice. My wife sometimes doesn't even recognize that CSI is in HD, while we never have that problem with anything on HDNET or HDNMV or any HD football games.

Originally posted by santellavision
...But don't tell Comcast, as I'm about to produce a series of national TV spots for them!

I guess we will have to start referring to you as "The Cable Guy"!

p.s. can you hook me up with free cable?

The only reason to mess with a HTPC is to timeshift programming. If you're not interested in that, I hear WalMart sells a basic HDTV receiver for a couple hundred bucks. well I already use an HTPC because at the time I built my system DVD players with built in up-scaling were not available and stand alone scalers were (are) obsenely expensive. Somehow the thought of wal-Mart components in my rack just seems so wrong. :p I will look into a HD card and just take my chances, maybe wait a little longer for everything to catch-up to Win service Pack 2. Not really a foot-ball watcher though, boxing sometimes .
Ernie I guess your 1 of the lucky ones, my ceiling is only 6 inches away. Lights up pretty good even on dark scenes.

Hey Gang

O.K. so all this antenna preamp stuff has got me thinking about trying one. I get a fair number of break ups on KCNC and was wondering if a preamp might help, I do have about 175' cable run. The problem that I see is that I have no power near my antenna. I assume these need power at the antenna is that right? How are people handling this? Any source for these locally?

Thanks
Joe

Originally posted by joej
...I get a fair number of break ups on KCNC and was wondering if a preamp might help, I do have about 175' cable run. The problem that I see is that I have no power near my antenna. I assume these need power at the antenna is that right? How are people handling this? Any source for these locally?
Yea, with 175 of cable, you are looking at probably a 6-8 db loss(maybe more). The power for preamps almost always comes at your connection within the house(no outside power needed). Winegard & Channel Master make good preamps. Try contacting Stark Electronics(Google on them). They are in MA, I think. Good Prices.

Good Luck,
....jc

Joe, Make sure you put the preamp right at the antenna. The power brick can go inside the house. You may wish to consider the Winegard SS preamp (HDP-269 ). It has 11 dB of gain with good overload performance.

So I have a barrel connector at the 100' mark of my cable which is in the house, would it be o.k. to put the power block there or would it be better right before the reciever? I guess I could try it in both places.

Thanks
Joe

Originally posted by joej
So I have a barrel connector at the 100' mark of my cable which is in the house, would it be o.k. to put the power block there or would it be better right before the reciever? I guess I could try it in both places.
To eliminate losses from the amplifier to the receiver, the amplifier(preamp) should be connected as close to the receiver(or distribution system) as possible. However, since the preamp boosts the signal out, you may actually be able to run a sizeable amount of cable from the preamp to the receiver w/o seeing much difference in the signal.

And, as Geof indicated, as close to the antenna as possible.
...jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
To eliminate losses from the amplifier to the receiver, the amplifier(preamp) should be connected as close to the receiver(or distribution system) as possible.

And, as Geof indicated, as close to the antenna as possible.
...jc I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here...must be dense today.

The preamp itself is best placed right at the antenna. The reason for this is because the preamp amplifies signal and noise. It is therefore important to amplify the signal before it starts to get attenuated (lower in amplitude). That maximizes your signal to noise ratio.

The power supply isn't nearly as important. It's job is to feed DC power to your preamp and block it from going to your TV. You need to place it in the line such that there are no couplers or other devices between it and your preamp (these devices usually do not pass DC although you can find couplers that will pass DC). There would be some DC Voltage drop due to the resistance of the coax but this is probably going to be small and most likely negligible. If you have an AC outlet at the 100' mark of you cable that should be fine but in back of your receiver should be fine too.

I am no longer able to receive 4-1 on my Hughes DTV reciever!!! I have rescanned several times and played with the position of the antenna. Nothing works. Has anyone esle experienced this?

I can still get 2,9,12 and 31 with no problems. I am very frustrated...I am a Steelers fan and I wanted to see their Superbowl run un HD and if the Jets kicker didn't suck...I'd have missed it!!!!

Originally posted by mdicki02
I am no longer able to receive 4-1 on my Hughes DTV reciever!!! I have rescanned several times and played with the position of the antenna. Nothing works. Has anyone esle experienced this?

I can still get 2,9,12 and 31 with no problems. I am very frustrated...I am a Steelers fan and I wanted to see their Superbowl run un HD and if the Jets kicker didn't suck...I'd have missed it!!!! KCNC 4-1 is usually the hardest of the three Republic building stations to bring in. But from your list, you aren't getting KRMA 6-1 either, right? Where are you at and what kind of antenna do you have?

At least if the Steelers win on Sunday you're set for the SuperBowl, since Fox-31 has it this year.

I am using a Silver Sensor in the attic, 40 ft of R6 connected to the Hughes DTV receiver.

I am in Westminster (104th and 36).

I used to get it, now it's not there....really freaking me out!!!

Originally posted by mdicki02
I am using a Silver Sensor in the attic, 40 ft of R6 connected to the Hughes DTV receiver.

I am in Westminster (104th and 36).

I used to get it, now it's not there....really freaking me out!!! You were lucky it was working before. And of course digital TV reception is a binary thing, you either get a great picture or you get nothing. If your situation is marginal, any little change in the weather can make the difference.

Try taking your SS out of the attic and put it outside on a deck or even pointing through a window. It's not my main setup, but I have a SS which I use with a SASEM receiver to record HD shows occasionally. I just set it up on the ledge of my deck and point it downtown; it picks up everything except (d'oh) KMGH. And you are a lot closer to downtown than I am.

I also got a piece of "flat coax" from JB Saunders in Boulder that lets me run the antenna cable past a sliding door without leaving it open.

Or you can try getting a bigger antenna (CM 4221 or 4228) for your attic.

Originally posted by mdicki02
I am using a Silver Sensor in the attic, 40 ft of R6 connected to the Hughes DTV receiver.

I am in Westminster (104th and 36).

I used to get it, now it's not there....really freaking me out!!!

I live near you and have a ChannelMaster 4221 4-bay and an AntennasDirect DB8 8-bay collecting dust in my garage. Let me know if you'd like to try out a bigger antenna to get KCNC back.

After fiddling with it some more, I put a box under the SS (raised it about 18 inches). Now I get 4 and 6.

Totally bizarre.

Thank you all for the help!!!!!

GO STEELERS!!!!:) :) :) :)

Someone asked earlier what my roof looked like. Here it is:

http://home.earthlink.net/~tim_schaefer/pic/roof%20small.JPG

I use 1 dish each for 110 and 119, and a separate one for 61.5. You can also see my 4228 which is aimed precisely at KMGH. With this setup the 'guage' on my 921 shows that I get (no pre-amp):

61.5 @ 97
110 @ 90
119 @ 123

2-01 KWGN @ 75
4-01 KCNC @ 110
6-01 KRMA @ 125
7-01 KMGH @ 116
9-01 KUSA @ 125
12-01-12-03 KBDI @ 103
25-01 WHO CARES!
31-01 KDVR @ 103

If I aim the 4228 at Lookout (70 degrees to the West) I peg all of those channels, keep a lock on the RP stations (barely), and lose 7.

Medium's audio seems slightly out of sync tonight (this is the first time I've ever watch the show. it's supposed to be the best thing that's ever happened to humanity, I hear). Also is it supposed to be in Dolby Digital 5.1? because it's coming in as DD 2.0. Or has NBC just not moved up to 5.1 yet?

Tim,
You're gettin' there! But, I found this old pic of Geof's house.

http://santellaproductions.com/dishes.jpg

Top of the page ma, top of the page!!!

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
Medium's audio seems slightly out of sync tonight (this is the first time I've ever watch the show. it's supposed to be the best thing that's ever happened to humanity, I hear). Also is it supposed to be in Dolby Digital 5.1? because it's coming in as DD 2.0. Or has NBC just not moved up to 5.1 yet?

Audio sync seems fine here. I'm sure they are not doing 5.1 yet.

You have to look pretty close. Considering that the signal is digital, is it even possible to be out of sync on one person's TV but not on the others? MPEG2 + AC3 is a muxed signal, meaning they are both sent at the same time as one package.

Originally posted by santellavision
Tim,
You're gettin' there! But, I found this old pic of Geof's house.

http://santellaproductions.com/dishes.jpg

Top of the page ma, top of the page!!! Hey, that looks like more like jm's backyard than mine. :)

I wondered who's been messin' with all of NASA's deep space probes. Accident-shmaccident! ;-)

Jetlag - 116 on KMGH? Damn...and I thought I was doing well with 82! :)

Originally posted by Geof
Hey, that looks like more like jm's backyard than mine. :)

Ahhh, what a great picture of some of my favorite flowers! Ane they all are in full bloom too.
:D

What channel is the SuperBowl on?

Someone previously mentioned it was FOX.

Please say this is so and not ABC!

Yes, it's on FOX, but KDVR might decide to run American Idol instead. That gets better ratings. ;)
Did I read that they're gonna' air that show like 3-4 nights a week! Now I know why draganm only watches PBS.

Hello all fellow Denverites and Coloradoans...

I thought I would jump in here, as I have started to read in this thread. I am finishing the basement for a HT and completion is nearing.

I am going to dive into HDTV with an OTA setup (LG 3510a) for dvd/hdtv and budget reasons....

I live down in Highlands Ranch, close to Santa Fe.

Not really asking any questions, just saying HI! Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Scott

Hi Scott, and welcome!

Hi Scott and welcome too!

Advice... Well, run lots of PVC cable conduits for future expansion. Including power for possible ceiling mounted projector/screen.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. With all the trials many of us have been through, you won't find a more experienced bunch of HT enthusiasts on the Forum!

Originally posted by 5.10-Crux
What channel is the SuperBowl on?

Someone previously mentioned it was FOX.

Please say this is so and not ABC!

Don't ask about next year.

Don

Originally posted by donyoop
Don't ask about next year.

Don Surely by next year KMGH will have a real transmitter and antenna located high atop Lookout - no?

I mean after all I have a letter from their attorney stating it would be available soon (or was it shortly), and that letter was dated a very long time ago. Certainly soon (or shortly) is getting close by now - no?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad: :mad:

No.

Originally posted by santellavision
Hi Scott and welcome too!

Advice... Well, run lots of PVC cable conduits for future expansion. Including power for possible ceiling mounted projector/screen.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. With all the trials many of us have been through, you won't find a more experienced bunch of HT enthusiasts on the Forum!

Thanks! I am running a 2" conduit from my A/V rack out to where the PJ will be (panny AE700) and have run a outlet to the mount area. I will fish a s-video, componant, and hdmi cable through that.

I ran a RG6 from my A/V rack to the attic for antenna. (I also ran a cat5 cable from our office into the A/V rack as-well.

I had earmarked a "DB4" antenna (don't know who makes it). Any thoughts on that for the Highlands Ranch area?

... now back to the previous 500 pages....:eek: ;)

Surely by next year KMGH will have a real transmitter and antenna located high atop Lookout - no?

Monday marks the 10 month anniversary of the preliminary injunction. The Jeffco BCC's were able to schedule and hold their hearings within 5 months of the infamous March 24 (s)CARE semi-victory. 5 months after the 2nd round of BCC hearings, case #03CV3045 still lingers waiting re-scheduling in Jeffco District Court.

When the case does appear before Judge Jackson (will it really happen someday?), what are the odds? I firmly believe this time the preliminary injunction will become permanent. This opinion may be the result of prior experiences, disappointments, and broken "shortly" promises. Oh, well 2009 is only four years away. That will be a sweet day when analog transmission is turned off for good.

Don

Originally posted by Geof
Surely by next year KMGH will have a real transmitter and antenna located high atop Lookout - no?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :p :p :p
Thanks Geof, I needed the laugh. ;)

Seriously though, I would say that there is a probably a better chance that we'll see this year's Superbowl halftime entertainment featurr 2 dozen strippers in a giant oil wrestling cage-match than KMGH improving their setup.

Yeah, I think you're right about seeing strippers on the SB halftime show before seeing KMGH improve their setup.

Don, I'm beginning to think it will be 2009 before the LCG starts broadcasting from Lookout. I will be gone long before that and have resigned myself to the fact that I won't be getting OTA HD until I move back to NYS. :(

From the little bit of reading I've done about the anti-tower group (care?) they are worried about cancer or something from the tower being built on Lookout Mtn?

Isn't there already like 40 other towers on Lookout Mtn? How bad could one more be?

Originally posted by santellavision
Don't be afraid to ask questions.
Your question might get ignored, though. Especially if someone posts a pic of all of their dish setups around your question. I don't know why anyone would be proud of that. I mean do you really need THAT many channels? It's just TV. Please tell me that you don't watch that much TV. Please tell me you have some semblance of a life.

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
Your question might get ignored, though. Especially if someone posts a pic of all of their dish setups around your question. I don't know why anyone would be proud of that. I mean do you really need THAT many channels? It's just TV. Please tell me that you don't watch that much TV. Please tell me you have some semblance of a life. If your question gets ignored then repost it. So far I don't recall any ignored posts or questions though.

As to the picture that was intended as humor. Didn't you find it funny?

Originally posted by Geof
... and have resigned myself to the fact that I won't be getting OTA HD until I move back to NYS. :(

being new to this thread, and not knowing what level of sarcasm floats in here, what level of NO OTA HDTV are you referring to?

Don't make me all nervous before I plunge into OTA HD...:D

Scott - you'll be able to pick up at least 2, 4, 6, 9, 12, and 31 from the highlands ranch area, unless you are down in a valley. And you have a shot at 7 as well.

Originally posted by Sandwedg
being new to this thread, and not knowing what level of sarcasm floats in here, what level of NO OTA HDTV are you referring to?

Don't make me all nervous before I plunge into OTA HD...:D I live in a very difficult area and really only get KWGN, KDVR, KCNC and sometimes KUSA. I have no luck with KRMA or KMGH. YMMV and there plenty of folks who can get KRMA (and far fewer who are able to get KMGH).

The crux of the situation though is Denver is woefully behind the nation because of SCARE and even though the LCG application was approved more than a year ago there is still no end in sight with getting the tower constructed. For those of us involved in this thread for several years it seems as though little or no progress has been made and what seems like good news one day is soon countered by bad news the next day.

well every voice helps. Please let me know if there is anything that I can do. I've got my neighbors stirred up a little and I'm sure when they see HD, they will jump in too. (especially the dorkiest of neighbors who bought HD ready tvs, and don't utilize the capabilities)

Originally posted by Sandwedg
well every voice helps. Please let me know if there is anything that I can do. I've got my neighbors stirred up a little and I'm sure when they see HD, they will jump in too. (especially the dorkiest of neighbors who bought HD ready tvs, and don't utilize the capabilities) Right now there isn't much we can do (except complain and whine of course :( ). The tower construction has been stopped with a preliminary injunction and until that gets lifted nothing will happen. The LCG has to submit papers to the Judge who stopped construction and the fear is that is even if one tiny itty bitty thing is wrong the Judge will remand the case back to Jefferson County. IF that happens then kiss Lookout goodbye because 2 of the 3 Commissioners who voted for the new tower have lost their seats due to term limits and the replacement Commissioners both vowed to vote against said tower if they get a chance. So we're in one of our seemingly never ending holding patterns waiting for issues to be resolved which is basically where we've been for the last 6 years.:mad:

Originally posted by Sandwedg
Thanks! I am running a 2" conduit from my A/V rack out to where the PJ will be (panny AE700) and have run a outlet to the mount area. I will fish a s-video, componant, and hdmi cable through that.
About the only other thing that you might need is a VGA cable in case you might want to use your PC thru it.

I ran a RG6 from my A/V rack to the attic for antenna. (I also ran a cat5 cable from our office into the A/V rack as-well.
1 RG to the attic may be enough, but I always think that more is better. For the A/V rack: What about Cable/Satellite inputs? Again, more is always better.

Also, you may not have room at the mount area for a surge protector(a must), if not, consider making that receptacle(outlet) a pseudo 'extension cord' that could be fed from a surge protector.

Good Luck,
....jc

Originally posted by Geof
IF that happens then kiss Lookout goodbye because 2 of the 3 Commissioners who voted for the new tower have lost their seats due to term limits and the replacement Commissioners both vowed to vote against said tower if they get a chance.

And the third Commissioner is caught up in a defamatory faxing scandal.

So I noticed tonight that 9-2 has started at least a shell of their weather service, replacing the DVR commercial loop they had been running. If this were all they had in mind, I don't even think it would need 1Mbps, since the image is mostly static.

Originally posted by 5.10-Crux
From the little bit of reading I've done about the anti-tower group (care?) they are worried about cancer or something from the tower being built on Lookout Mtn?

Isn't there already like 40 other towers on Lookout Mtn? How bad could one more be?
Except it's not really one more tower, it's 3 fewer (since the tower would replace four existing towers).

They counter with the fact there will be more transmitting antennas, but the fact is that the transmitting antenna will be directional, pointed at Denver instead of the existing omnidirectional antennas that are there now.

And then there's the State cancer study that shows lower-than-expected levels of cancer on Lookout Mountain which just confuses the whole issue.

IIRC, their current injunction is due to some problem they have with the guy wires. They started off saying the guy wires were too small to hold the tower up, and then they said they were too big and ugly. I'm not sure exactly what their guy wire issue is now. :rolleyes:

I've heard the EEOC wants 50% of them to be girl wires.

...if not, consider making that receptacle(outlet) a pseudo 'extension cord' that could be fed from a surge protector. [/B]

That's exactly what I will have to do. The electrical inspector asked what the conduit was for and I told him a PJ, and he said "Cool!.....uhhhh how are you going to plug it in?" so I got busted, and had to install a outlet, but, I will put an enclosed male recep on the A/V side to feed from a line conditioner. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by dr_mal
And then there's the State cancer study that shows lower-than-expected levels of cancer on Lookout Mountain which just confuses the whole issue. And the same folks who fret about being 3 km from a 500 KW transmitter have no qualms putting their head 1 cm away from a 500 milliwatt transmitter (e.g., a cellphone). And they get a lot more RF exposure from the latter than the former.

Originally posted by Geof
As to the picture that was intended as humor. Didn't you find it funny?
Yes, but I know there are crazy people out there like that. The previous picture had 3 dishes and a nice antenna mounted on the roof. Man loves his TV programs perhaps a bit too much. Even when you get all of those channels, most of it is not worth watching.

Originally posted by oxothuk
And the same folks who fret about being 3 km from a 500 KW transmitter have no qualms putting their head 1 cm away from a 500 milliwatt transmitter (e.g., a cellphone). And they get a lot more RF exposure from the latter than the former. Not to mention the RF exposure they get every day from both fluorescent light ballasts and, increasingly, WiFi hotspots.

Then there's the fact many of those same anti-radiation cell phone users also have cordless phones in their homes (have you tried to buy a corded phone these days?)

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
Yes, but I know there are crazy people out there like that. The previous picture had 3 dishes and a nice antenna mounted on the roof. Man loves his TV programs perhaps a bit too much. Even when you get all of those channels, most of it is not worth watching.

To be fair, he's using one dish per satellite. So he's not receiving any more channels than the rest of us are.

Say Jetlag , why are you using a dish per satellite anyway?

Originally posted by Symbios

Say Jetlag , why are you using a dish per satellite anyway?

Cuz he's one of those silly people that think if the signal strength on his DBS receiver reads 105 instead of 90 his picture quality will be better. ;)

Everybody knows the correct technical term is "gal" wires, not "girl" wires. Jeez.

Well, I must be one of the crazies here as well, with the 3 antennas and 2 dishes on my roof. :)

For the 22 of you that can receive KMGH, please send Rick Craddock (Rick_Craddock@kmgh.com) an email complaining about their encoder problems that have been plaguing their HD picture for the last 3 weeks. Especially you comcast people that poke your heads in here - KMGH doesn't much care about us OTA folks, but they tend to listen to you cable folks.

Mark:

I haven't noticed any picture problems with KMGH lately. What are you seeing? Lost and Alias, which we watch, look pretty good. Still no 5.1 sound tho.

Originally posted by DP1
Cuz he's one of those silly people that think if the signal strength on his DBS receiver reads 105 instead of 90 his picture quality will be better. ;) And he may very well be right if rain fade is enough to kill a signal of 90 but not enough to kill a 105...;)

Originally posted by MRinDenver
Everybody knows the correct technical term is "gal" wires, not "girl" wires. Jeez. Well as long as they're not "gay" wires (not that there's anything wrong with that).....:p

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Mark:

I haven't noticed any picture problems with KMGH lately. What are you seeing? Lost and Alias, which we watch, look pretty good. Still no 5.1 sound tho.

Periods of micro-pixellation on the left side of the screen, in the middle third of the picture. Watch for it in Lost tonight - you'll be able to clearly see it whenever there's shots of the jungle from medium to long distance. I've seen it very cleary show up in Lost, Alias and Desparate Housewives for the last 2 weeks, and there were a couple of people over in the Comcast thread that have commented on it as well. It was so bad last week that my wife actually wanted to switch over and watch the shows in SD instead. Minor stuff bugs me, but when it's bad enough that it bugs her, I know there's a real problem.

I had some problems with pixellation and breakups on KWGN-DT last night during Gilmore Girls. I didn't worry about it as I had seen the episode previously, but had never had problems with KWGN before. Just wanted to report.

Jeff

(First, I apologize to the thread regulars, but...)

**rant mode: on**

Joe, Joe, Joe...

FYI the dual dishes serve 1 purpose, to maximize signal strength. When I have a room full of guests over to view a special PPV event or other event that is not available via OTA, it truly sucks to see pixelization or fade due to rain, snow or clouds instead of the program I paid for. With these 2 dishes (as opposed to my former Dish 500) I have only experienced drop out once when a huge CB cloud blew up South of Denver, that's it. It's the same reason I use my 4228 instead of a POS Terk stuffed into my attic. I'd install a BUD if I had the space. I even ran all new Belden 1694A coax cable to further enhance reception strength once I determined that the stuff that was originally installed was probably the worst coax available anywhere (Pf, capacitance, and inductance of that cable didn't meet ANY of the DTV specs). Yeah, DP1 may be right and I may be crazy, but nothing I have found improves the picture more than NOT having "dancing green squares" bounce around on it or have the picture freeze due to signal loss and not becuase I hit the 'pause' on my 921.

Also, FWIW, I needed the third dish originally to pull in NY CBSHD when it was only available on 61.5. I have not gotten around to taking that one down yet due to being busy with work, starting my own business, and the fact that it is ski season and my days off are spent in the mountains. More than likely it will get re-used if I finally get around to "moving to Canada". A more and more likely prospect due to the LCG situation.

Finally, my VP-12S1, which I took delivery of in Feb of 2002, now has a grand total whopping 1600 hours on it. You think less than 1.5 hours per day is excessive?

My annual Superbowl party is coming up, and so far the confirmed guest list is nearly 40. It will feature genuine WI beer brats (I have them made here using a family recipe), 240 Old Chicago wings (I know the manager), a full bar, and my basement 'beer fridge' is already packed full (18 different brews!). There will also be 6 displays scattered about the house, 3 of which are HD. I even have an LCD in the main bathroom and a TV out by the hot tub.

For me this is what it is all about. Having a house full of happy (and usually inebriated) guests having a great time and enjoying my setup. Yeah, it was a lot of work and my roof is cluttered, but when my bash's are this much fun, who cares!

Do I now qualify as "having a life" in your book?

**rant mode: off**

Too bad you felt the need to justify "having a life" Jetlag.

Especially since I'm the one who needs a life.... ;)

And I will once I move back to NY....till then anyone who is annoyed by that can bugger off....:confused:

From the pic of the party, maybe I should bring over my Panny HD Vari-Cam & crew and shoot a segment with all the hotties for 'Wild on Wash Park'!

Originally posted by donyoop 5 months after the 2nd round of BCC hearings, case #03CV3045 still lingers waiting re-scheduling in Jeffco District Court. So who is responsible for this delay? Is there some formal action LCG needs to take to trigger a re-hearing, or is this just waiting for Judge Jackson to be in the right mood?

Just curious if anyone else had any dropouts during 24 on Fox Monday Night? I watched it last night on my HD-Tivo and a little over half way into it I noticed a few here and there until the end of the show.

No dropouts here.

Many would say the stations are dragging it out (for their benefit not to have to pay for 2 full-power transmitters) but it's more likely LCG is making sure every 'i' is dotted and every 't' is crossed, so that the judge cannot have any grounds to uphold the injunction. And also to give LCG another chance for appeal to a higher court.

Don't forget to give credit where credit is due! We have to remember the unselfish hard work and high level of integrity of Deb Carney and her tireless efforts to protect the citizens of Lookout Mountain from RF radiation!

If it were not for her, the residents of Lookout would most likely already be suffering from the effects of fewer antennas and lower radiation levels!

(umm, wait a second, that doesn't make sense for some reason....) :confused:

Originally posted by santellavision
Many would say the stations are dragging it out (for their benefit not to have to pay for 2 full-power transmitters) but it's more likely LCG is making sure every 'i' is dotted and every 't' is crossed, so that the judge cannot have any grounds to uphold the injunction. And also to give LCG another chance for appeal to a higher court. So are you saying that LCG has not asked for a re-hearing yet?

Originally posted by oxothuk
So are you saying that LCG has not asked for a re-hearing yet?

Jefferson County is the target party of the lawsuit, not LCG.

Don, I was under the impression that it was both LCG and the JeffCo commissioners. As the injunction was based on LCG's late info at the last official hearing? I would think all parties would be involved in the upcoming hearing.

Judge Jackson determined that Jeffco did not give the opponents a fair hearing last time because Lake Cedar Group submitted documents less than 21 days before the hearing on the design of the guy wires, the face area of the tower, alternative sites, RF predictions that the opponents were not given a chance to respond to and because Jeffco ignored Bob Barrett's presentation about the potential of the guy wires to whip out and strike homes if the tower fell. And as we all know, all that was addressed and answered in the re-hearings and then voted 3-0 in favor. I can't see what grounds the Judge would have to override a 3-0 decision. Maybe if it was 2-1, there might be questions to further investigate.

So, who get's to appear for the JeffCo side? 2 of the 3 Commissioners are gone (and most likely the 3rd soon) So, would they call back the ex-Commish's involved? Or would it be just the lonely old JeffCo case worker?

I hope when the date is set, it should be a no-brainer hearing. And speaking of no-brainers, Remember sCARE's threats to make it a mockery. This might be their last gasp at anything legitimate to oppose. I hope the Judge tells them to stick it.

Originally posted by donyoop
Jefferson County is the target party of the lawsuit, not LCG. So I guess I still don't understand who we are waiting for. Who has to trigger the next move - JeffCo, LCG, or the judge?

Originally posted by oxothuk
So I guess I still don't understand who we are waiting for. Who has to trigger the next move - JeffCo, LCG, or the judge? Whoever triggers it (it won't be the Judge) must not proceed before they are ready: they need to make sure they leave no stone unturned and no reason for the Judge to uphold the injunction.

Fast would be nice but in this case paying anal attention to the details is what is most important and absolutely required.

Ernie, you are correct. Lake Cedar Group is included, however, Jeffco is responsible for defending their zoning decision. As far as initiating the response, it has to be up to Jeffco to return the results of the hearings to District Court, not LCG.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/pdfs/JudgeJacksonOrder051704.pdf

Last week Lost and Alias were breaking up so bad I had to switch to SD.
Hopefully this week is better.


Btw, why do some channels have a program guide (show schedule), while others list generic names (like FOX = "720p2") or nothing?

I'm using the Wal-mart USDTV HD Tuner. Channels 2-1 and 4-1 seems to bring down program info no problem, but the other channels have no info.

It's frustrating to figure out what's on next.
Maybe I'll need to subscribe to TV Guide :rolleyes:

5.10

Go to www.titantv.com They have a very good grid guide based on your provider(s), including OTA.

I have a HD Tivo and don't watch anything any more real time, but I print the titantv guide for each day's prime time to see what is coming up that is new and will be recorded on my Tivo.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi

Go to www.titantv.com They have a very good grid guide based on your provider(s), including OTA.



Perfect! This site will do nicely, thanx for the info.


Now I just need to get a laptop with a wireless connection and I'll be all set :)
Watching TV and surfing at the same time!

Careful... Too much of that will make you go blind! ;)

Originally posted by donyoop
As far as initiating the response, it has to be up to Jeffco to return the results of the hearings to District Court, not LCG.
[/B]

So if its not LCG that has to return the decision, why is Jeffco taking so long to return it? Is LCG and Jeffco working together so all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed. I am tired of waiting, and I am sure the first people on this thread are sick of waiting, build this tower.

Originally posted by Sportfantic
I am tired of waiting, and I am sure the first people on this thread are sick of waiting, build this tower. Yep. After 5 years I can safely say I am sick of waiting. First I blamed SCARE, and then the LCG stations.

I still do.

They both have reasons to let this drag on.

I don't watch them much anymore. I have moved on. To hell with them.

Originally posted by Jetlag
Do I now qualify as "having a life" in your book?
Of course not! You are paying for TV programming! That is something that I just can't comprehend why people do. It's TV!

At least your screening room doesn't have a Star Wars (http://www.dillonworks.com/portfolio/starwarstheater/) or Star Trek (http://homepage.mac.com/pgervais/PhotoAlbum6.html) motif, though. So I guess you do qualify as having a life! :)

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
At least your screening room doesn't have a Star Wars (http://www.dillonworks.com/portfolio/starwarstheater/) or Star Trek (http://homepage.mac.com/pgervais/PhotoAlbum6.html) motif, though. So I guess you do qualify as having a life! :)
Hah! The joke's on you! Both of those theaters have Star Wars motifs. Now, who needs a life? Huh? Oh wait, I guess that would be me :p

I only know of one way to get PPV events for free, but realistically the cost of the setup is far more than the money saved on the shows. Plus you have to know the 'secret handshake' to get some of the required info.
Still, I sure wish I had a setup like that.

I pay for DiscoveryHD, and all of the other HD content that I can't get via my 4228. I hate watching SD 'blurry-vision' on my S1, it gives me a headache. I will continue to do so because to me it is worth the cost in most cases. Quite frankly I really like most of the content offered on DiscoveryHD, and "The Sopranos" on HBOHD is quite nice as well ("Bikini Destinations", "Get Out" and "Hot Lines" are great in HD, you just have to mute the sound to make watching the models 'bare-able'). ;)

p.s. my 'screening room' is also my living room, so sometimes decor must be put before my HT desires. The next house will have dedicated HT and audio rooms.

I will not pay extra to get locals or local-HD however.

Well OK then. :)

Dr-Mal, the joke is indeed on me, because I did see a screening room motif where it was built up as the bridge of the Enterprise. I guess I grabbed the wrong link. Oh well. Either way the rooms are usually all white or bright (bad idea). Hell my "TV room" has white walls. Sucks.

Originally posted by 5.10-Crux
Btw, why do some channels have a program guide (show schedule), while others list generic names (like FOX = "720p2") or nothing? It all depends on what the station has their data stream setup to send...

Tonight, while watching CSI: NY, I was flipping back and forth between 4-1 and 5-1.
My receiver flagged 4-1 as Dolby Pro Logic whereas 5-1 was flagged as Dolby Digital 5.1. Has anyone else noticed this? Is there any reason why KCNC isn't passing the DD51 and KGWN is? Seems odd...I would think the Denver station would be better than the Cheyenne station.

Also strange is that I normally get Cheyenne without much of any breakups (I've set all of my Season Passes to record from 5-1). Denver I usually can't pull in. However, tonight KCNC is just fine...no breakups and KGWN is nearly unwatchable. It's interesting to see how the atmosphere plays with reception. Could it be these near record highs we are seeing now? :)

I posted a message several pages ago stating my LG-3410a can't record KDVR-DT (31-1) at all, and apparently no one else here owns one as I received no replies pro or con as to whether I was alone.

So to expand the audience a bit, can anyone with any other HD DVR record KDVR-DT?

Originally posted by kucharsk
So to expand the audience a bit, can anyone with any other HD DVR record KDVR-DT?

Yeah...I have the HD TiVo and have had absolutely no problems recording FOX. I don't think I've even seen a break up on that channel at all (in the 4 weeks I've been experimenting). 24 is simply amazing. FOX is one of the better signal quality stations I receive, though. About 90 out of 100 on the meter.

Many years ago I was told by a friend:
He who dies with the most Toys wins.
I certainly believe that is true. I have my Toys, Jetlag has his, and most other people have theirs. However, there are some people that don't believe in Toys, and don't think that they have any. They do. They just don't realize that what they have is really a Toy.

A Toy is anything that you really don't need in order to survive. Shelter, food and water are not Toys. Three dishes on your roof, a Hummer, a tower, a widescreen HD, a plasma bathroom, and a surround sound audio system are Toys.

Gather as many as you can, the race is on, and Jetlag, myself and others are going for it.

Because when you're t*ts up(buns down), at least you'll have a smile on your face, because you had some Toys.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Because when you're t*ts up(buns down), at least you'll have a smile on your face, because you had some Toys. I like my Toys, don't get me wrong. But there are many things in life that are WAY more important, IMHO. Somehow, I can't find a way to define my wife and kids as being my Toys.

Originally posted by Jetlag
My annual Superbowl party is coming up, and so far the confirmed guest list is nearly 40. Hey Jetlag! I haven't seen my invitation yet! ;) I'm sure it just the slow UPS. :D Looks like a great time! :cool:

Originally posted by PAW
Hey Jetlag! I haven't seen my invitation yet! ;) I'm sure it just the slow UPS. :D Looks like a great time! :cool: To be a full-fledged member of this forum you need to be HOSTING a SB party.:)

Speaking of recording to HD DVRs, could one record HDTV programs to a DVHS machine using the firewire connection? My Sony KD-34XBR960 has a bunch of firewire connectors, but I'm not sure if it outputs the data for recording.

The JVC D-VHS machines will record a firewire signal. But, not all firewire signals are compatible. (Sounds confusing because it is!) I would do some research. Does your manual mention anything? Maybe the HDTV recording forum might have some more info too.

Originally posted by oxothuk
...Somehow, I can't find a way to define my wife and kids as being my Toys.
I should have defined Toys as inanimate objects. However, I know some friends that have been thru the big 'D' that would define their ex's as expensive Toys.

....jc

Hucharsk - no problem recording 31 on the Dish 921. With the game coming up, I would be on the phone in a second trying to figure out why if it would not.

Originally posted by mikeaco
Tonight, while watching CSI: NY, I was flipping back and forth between 4-1 and 5-1.
My receiver flagged 4-1 as Dolby Pro Logic whereas 5-1 was flagged as Dolby Digital 5.1. Has anyone else noticed this? Is there any reason why KCNC isn't passing the DD51 and KGWN is? Seems odd...I would think the Denver station would be better than the Cheyenne station.

Also strange is that I normally get Cheyenne without much of any breakups (I've set all of my Season Passes to record from 5-1). Denver I usually can't pull in. However, tonight KCNC is just fine...no breakups and KGWN is nearly unwatchable. It's interesting to see how the atmosphere plays with reception. Could it be these near record highs we are seeing now? :)

My observations:

KGWN (Cheyenne) improperly sets the DD 5.1 flags when showing CBS HD programming, which is generally not 5.1 audio. You will notice there is no sound from KGWN's "5.1" except on the left and right channels. So, Denver's KCNC is doing it right.

Unfortunately, when the CBS source is truly 5.1 (such as HD NFL games), the KGWN audio still only has 2-channels, even though the 5.1 flags are on. The center and rear channels are silent. (Because of these problems, I end up using the analog connections from the HD receiver and decoding their audio as Dolby Pro Logic.)

Also, when KGWN is upconverting local content, the audio is awful, with some type of L/R phase problem that really messes up Dolby Pro Logic decoding.

Unfortunately, I can't get KCNC.

Mark

I was going to say that KGWN does have audio problems. The local program and ad's are all wrong. I get left rear signal only from my hdtivo and sony hd-300. Hopefully they read this thread or someone who knows the engineer there can clue them in.

I am too far away to get KCNC nothing on my signal meters at all.

KCNC is definitely capable of passing 5.1 when it's sent from the network. They were one of the stations that got upgraded for the Grammys a couple years ago, which were presented in 5.1 sound.

Never had a problem recording KDVR-DT, either on my HD TiVo or on my HiDTV Pro HTPC card.

Oooohhhh... a home theater set up like the Enterprise bridge... I'm about one step away from that myself. (That one step, BTW, is winning the lottery :) )

A little off-topic but interesting. Here's an Email I received from one of the higher ups at D* when inquiring about MPEG-4 for locals and current MPEG-2 receivers vs MPEG-4:

Mike,

You did read our announcement correctly. When we begin transmitting in MPEG4 new reception equipment will be required; thus you may want to hold off purchasing an HD DVR receiver until we begin selling one that will receive the MPEG4 transmission. For customers who have purchased an HD Tivo receiver we will have an equipment replacement offer available; we have not yet finalized what that offer will be. As for your dish, you will only need one dish to receive the local HD channels as well as standard-definition programming.

Thanks

Bob


Bob Marsocci
Vice President, Communications
DIRECTV, Inc.
310 726-4656
ramarsocci@directv.com

OK...that makes sense about CBS's audio. When watching the CSI Weekend off KGWN, it is flagged as Pro Logic on the receiver, but it almost sounds to me like it's 7 channel stereo (I have a 7.1 setup) because the rears are very loud. I also noticed that KCNC's Pro Logic seemed to sound a lot better than KGWN's "DD5.1". So, the false flagging would explain it.

Did anyone else notice a different reception quality with KCNC last night than they normally get. I normally get KCNC bouncing around 20 to 40 and KGWN at a solid 68. Last night both KCNC and KGWN were at a solid 71, although KGWN was almost unwatchable because of breakups. Multipath, I guess...

Question: Why is the Siver Sensor an indoor antenna? There's not really much to it. Is there any reason that I can't stick it outside "in the elements" to try and get around this multipath issue I seem to be having? I noticed that Solid Signal has a new Terk version that can mount on your Sat Dish pole, is powered/amplified, and is UHF/VHF. Terk (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=HDTVO)

FWIW, I have been told that D* will replace all HD STB's at no cost when the time comes. This does not include DVR's and when I asked about them I was told that no decisions have been made. Directv is currently selling their own branded STB (a model H10). Evidently the MPEG 4 model (supposedly the H20) will be out in time for MPEG 4 operations.

The free part I can deal with....but it looks like our choices of MPEG 4 capable HD receivers will be the H20 or the H20 or the H20, or nothing. Let's hope the H20 suffers from no problems....I also hope it will be media center capable so when D* finally rolls out it's DVR media center we can use the H20 to watch programs recorded on the media center DVR.

I still have my Hughes E86 (along with the HD TiVo) and if D* replaces the E86 with an MPEG 4/media center capable STB for nuthin I guess I won't complain if it works okay.

Originally posted by Geof
[B]FWIW, I have been told that D* will replace all HD STB's at no cost when the time comes. This does not include DVR's and when I asked about them I was told that no decisions have been made. Directv is currently selling their own branded STB (a model H10). Evidently the MPEG 4 model (supposedly the H20) will be out in time for MPEG 4 operations.
Which makes me think that it will be quite a while(2007?) before D* starts broadcasting in MPEG4.

And yes, it does suck that D* owners will no longer have the choice of their hardware manufacturer.

Oh, and any chance that D* will 'turn on' FOX HD for everybody for the Super Bowl? Naw, that would no doubt violate some 'rules'. I guess poor smucks like me will just have to party instead of watching an SD game.;)

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Which makes me think that it will be quite a while(2007?) before D* starts broadcasting in MPEG4.

And yes, it does suck that D* owners will no longer have the choice of their hardware manufacturer.

Oh, and any chance that D* will 'turn on' FOX HD for everybody for the Super Bowl? Naw, that would no doubt violate some 'rules'. I guess poor smucks like me will just have to party instead of watching an SD game.;)

....jc Well D* is launching two satellites this year and they'll want to start paying for them and to do that they will very likely start MPEG4. And that's in keeping with what they've said (the first 12 DMAs by Q3 as I recall).

Originally posted by markdl
For the 22 of you that can receive KMGH, please send Rick Craddock (Rick_Craddock@kmgh.com) an email complaining about their encoder problems that have been plaguing their HD picture for the last 3 weeks.

Mark, we watched Lost last night and I did not see any breakups at all. This show has one of the best HD pictures of any on television. Too bad more people can't see it.

I'd have to FIND a signal to get LOST.

lol....

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by markdl
For the 22 of you that can receive KMGH, please send Rick Craddock (Rick_Craddock@kmgh.com) an email complaining about their encoder problems that have been plaguing their HD picture for the last 3 weeks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Mark, we watched Lost last night and I did not see any breakups at all. This show has one of the best HD pictures of any on television. Too bad more people can't see it.

I'm voting the opposite, Mark. (Sorry Dennis)

The picture breakups that I saw were specific to the middle left portion of the screen only. The top and bottom left and the full right portions of the picture were fine. Well, as fine as can be expected with the multicasting.

What's the data rate anyhow?

I have not yet contacted Craddock, as I am not confident that they really care about what they're sending out... Or who's getting it... :rolleyes:

Oh well, just my 2¢

Resume party.

Originally posted by ByH2O
I'm voting the opposite, Mark. (Sorry Dennis)

The picture breakups that I saw were specific to the middle left portion of the screen only. The top and bottom left and the full right portions of the picture were fine. Well, as fine as can be expected with the multicasting.

What's the data rate anyhow?

I have not yet contacted Craddock, as I am not confident that they really care about what they're sending out... Or who's getting it... :rolleyes:

Oh well, just my 2¢

Resume party.

Hi, my name is Keith, I'm from Englewood and I'm an HT junkie.

I haven't been very active in this forum, but I wanted to verify that it wasn't just my system with the weird "low bit" box on Lost. I watched the last two weeks worth last night on my HD DirecTv Tivo and I also saw the problem. It is basically a box in the middle third of the screen, starting from the center and extending to the left edge. It was worse in scenes with low light and lots of detail like the jungle trees. Pretty bad. I'm going to write and complain as well.

-Keith

OK, already. I will pay more attention to the picture quality and less to the story line or action. I'll report back.

Channel 9's website...

"We received approval for a high-powered facility on Lookout Mountain this past August, but that approval is being challenged by the City of Golden and another hearing is scheduled for July 2005 " (emphasis added)

Criminy!

Actually Keith I think it's "HT-aholic". Welcome!

Oh, one correction. From an earlier post I mentioned that the NY HD feed was now on 110 or 119, I was wrong. It is still only available on the wings at either 61.5 or 148. Looks like all 3 dishes will be staying put. :)

Hi, my name is Keith, I'm from Englewood and I'm an HT junkie.

I haven't been very active in this forum, but I wanted to verify that it wasn't just my system with the weird "low bit" box on Lost. I watched the last two weeks worth last night on my HD DirecTv Tivo and I also saw the problem. It is basically a box in the middle third of the screen, starting from the center and extending to the left edge. It was worse in scenes with low light and lots of detail like the jungle trees. Pretty bad. I'm going to write and complain as well.

-Keith


Ditto.

LOST lost some of the image in the middle and left.
Was especially terrible on the far away jungle shots - super pixelated.

Is this just a signal strength issue? Or is it actual ABC data problems?



Btw, Lost is an awesome show, it's frustrating to concentrate on the story-line when half of someones face was pixelated.

Originally posted by 5.10-Crux
Ditto.

LOST lost some of the image in the middle and left.
Was especially terrible on the far away jungle shots - super pixelated.

Is this just a signal strength issue? Or is it actual ABC data problems?



Btw, Lost is an awesome show, it's frustrating to concentrate on the story-line when half of someones face was pixelated.

I think it is a local data problem. Signal strength would cause pauses and blocks in the whole picture, this is an isolated area of the screen.

I think it is local because I'm pretty sure I noticed some breaking up on local commercials as well - but it is not as easy to see on SD content.

I did notice that it was less apparent if I switched my receiver to 1080i for some reason - not sure why. Perhaps the scaler in my reciever is doing a bit of cleaning when it up converts.

-Keith
An HT-aholic with a 7' wide fix in the basement.

Originally posted by jasong911
Channel 9's website...

"We received approval for a high-powered facility on Lookout Mountain this past August, but that approval is being challenged by the City of Golden and another hearing is scheduled for July 2005 " (emphasis added)

Criminy!

Thanks for the scoop, jasong911. I believe it.

Don

Wow, Dick Clark's New Year's Rockin Eve for 2007 on ABC in HD OTA to all of metro-Denver.

The KMGH picture problem is definitely a local problem, probably with their encoder. Please get those emails sent to Rick! Dennis - you're lucky that you haven't noticed it, because once you see it you'll be completely distracted by it. It's bad enough that every week I seriously consider switching back to the SD feed.

Originally posted by CEB II
Wow, Dick Clark's New Year's Rockin Eve for 2007 on ABC in HD OTA to all of metro-Denver.

Late 2006 is a possibility only if the lawsuit is thrown out in July. I'm not wagering any money on that one.

Don

Originally posted by donyoop
Late 2006 is a possibility only if the lawsuit is thrown out in July. I'm not wagering any money on that one.

Don You and me both.

July '05 is totally ridiculous. I'm convinced all sides want to delay construction as long as possible. Progress could not happen any slower if dead people were responsible for getting a tower constructed.

Given KRMA's experience of trying to get construction started it is virtually a 100% sure bet that it will be 2007 sometime before you folks get full power LCG broadcasts (I will be long gone). This is just assine beyond any reason or belief.

Nothin' says "New Years's Rockin Eve" more to me than a 'for the whole family' prime time TV show hosted by a 75-year-old man. Woohoo! :p ;)

I could not agree more Geof! Obviously LCG is dragging their feet to put off having to spend the money until the last possible second. I guess they are ignoring the statistics on the huge increase in the number of DTV and HDTV sets being purchased. Deb Carney and SCARE obviously convinced the City of Golden that they were all about to die from RF poisoning (not to mention all of the folks on/near Lookout), and regardless of the facts in the case, the new JeffCo board bought into and was elected based on Deb's insane rantings.

Who would not want fewer towers and lower radiation? Their cancer rates are already lower than expected and RF levels are well below the FCC limits. The RF levels would have dropped even further by now had the tower been built. Also, I'm curious as to how many people have died or been injured in the entire history of humanity by guy wires? I'm through with the entire mess. If LCG wants help again, the will have to fork over some dough.

Anyone have connections to maybe write an OP-ED piece in the Post or RMN and put the FACTS out?

Originally posted by Jetlag
Deb Carney and SCARE obviously convinced the City of Golden that they were all about to die from RF poisoning (not to mention all of the folks on/near Lookout), and regardless of the facts in the case, the new JeffCo board bought into and was elected based on Deb's insane rantings. Deb Carney and sCARE obviously convinced the City of Golden that at lot of their constituents would like to get rid of the towers. I suspect the number of true believers in the RF scare story or the falling guy wires is pretty small.

What will finally get this off the dime, IMHO, is when the FCC sets a new deadline for the analog shutoff and says "this time we really mean it".

It was on the news this morning that Powell is being replaced at the FCC. Like father like son.

July, just in time for the sCARE sponsored RF study to be released!
Remember the nice photo op of the sCARE gang with the people behind the study.
Can anybody spell 'conflict-of-interest'?

http://santellaproductions.com/dtv/CSU-investgators.jpg

Sorry,

Ernie, could you help me out with the 'who's who of who' here?

Thanks

Originally posted by jasong911
Channel 9's website...

"We received approval for a high-powered facility on Lookout Mountain this past August, but that approval is being challenged by the City of Golden and another hearing is scheduled for July 2005 " (emphasis added)

Criminy!

July 22nd to be exact. All other comments I have I will keep to myself. Last time what I said ended up in the City & Mtn Views along with a letter to the commissioners.
Oh and by the way whoever lifted this violated the forum Copyright laws.
IE. at the bottom of this page.
All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
I checked and was told that no one requested permission.

I would put odds on this appliction getting killed come July and then having the LCG stations wait for NTSC turnoff to covert their existing facilities. It may very well be 2010 before this gets resolved. That's far and away the cheapest route for the LCG stations. No building and blasting required. No second set of xmitters, no second set of electric bills and no hassles from the FCC. They can sit back on their asses and claim SCARE has them by the shorthairs.

Think about this.....

The station bean counters sit around adding up the costs of a new building, new tower, new antenna, new transmitter, new filters, and a lot of other new stuff. On the other hand they can sit back and let SCARE drive them to using their existing NTSC infrastructure where they'd need very little of that new stuff. Big difference in capital expenditures. Money talks.

Then look at this from the viewership point of view..... most folks interested in getting HDTV also have cable or Satellite TV.....those bean counting brains are going....humm, we're already on cable and D* will be broadcasting HD LiL sometime this year. Why rush out to spend a lot of money for only a handful of viewers.....we can just sit back and let Cable and D* (and maybe even Dish) solve our delivery problems.

They have NO motive to get this done. And the FCC is too blind, and too stupid to figure this out.

Powell (the son, not his daddy) should have been fired long before now.

PS: I'm not ranting, just telling it like it is....

It may very well be 2010 before this gets resolved.And most likely by then, the old school sCARE militia will be retired. And running some HOA and harrasing the residents in Boca-del Vista!

Originally posted by Lawood
July 22nd to be exact. All other comments I have I will keep to myself. Last time what I said ended up in the City & Mtn Views along with a letter to the commissioners.
Oh and by the way whoever lifted this violated the forum Copyright laws.
IE. at the bottom of this page.
All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
I checked and was told that no one requested permission.

I agree that copyrights need to be honored, however, it should be pointed out that the channel 9 site is technically inaccurate anyway.

LCG did not receive approval for a high powered facility, they received approval of a re-zoning application. Once it (the site) is re-zoned, LCG can apply for permission to build in the form of a building permit.

Like Geof says, financially, why would LCG want to have the preliminary injunction overturned? Just blame it on (s)care and laugh all the way to the bank.

Don

Copyright, Schmoppyright, I just want my HDTV!

Hey, look... it's my 2000th post!

And 1999 of them BS'n about a damn tower. How sad is that. :P

Originally posted by Geof
Think about this.....

The station bean counters sit around adding up the costs of a new building, new tower, new antenna, new transmitter, new filters, and a lot of other new stuff. On the other hand they can sit back and let SCARE drive them to using their existing NTSC infrastructure where they'd need very little of that new stuff. Big difference in capital expenditures. Money talks.

Then look at this from the viewership point of view..... most folks interested in getting HDTV also have cable or Satellite TV.....those bean counting brains are going....humm, we're already on cable and D* will be broadcasting HD LiL sometime this year. Why rush out to spend a lot of money for only a handful of viewers.....we can just sit back and let Cable and D* (and maybe even Dish) solve our delivery problems.

They have NO motive to get this done. And the FCC is too blind, and too stupid to figure this out.



Hopefully it didnt take you too long to formulate that because I'm pretty sure you could've prolly just copy and pasted something almost exactly like it from Page 1 or 2 of this thread.

;)

Originally posted by DP1
Hopefully it didnt take you too long to formulate that because I'm pretty sure you could've prolly just copy and pasted something almost exactly like it from Page 1 or 2 of this thread.

;) Maybe, but it seems more clear now than ever.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Originally posted by donyoop
Like Geof says, financially, why would LCG want to have the preliminary injunction overturned? Just blame it on (s)care and laugh all the way to the bank. Indeed, why broadcast at all when 85% of the audience (and an even higher percentage your target demographics) are getting your signal through other pipes?

Only one reason, really - because under current regulations and franchise agreements that silly broadcast signal is the ticket that lets you force your way onto the pipes which really matter.

Lawood,

I was the one who "lifted" the quote from the 9News site.

Was this quote posted previously here at AVS? If so, I'm not posting elsewhere.

Are you perhaps referring to the 9News website copyright? If so, I should be covered by the attribution : "From 9News's website". I thought this was a fairly common editorial practice. Did not mean to step on anyone's toes. Claiming the text to be mine would seem to be the definition of "lifting". I don't think I did that.


--Jason

PS: I have not retained counsel.

PSS: I did absolutely intend to imply that I am not happy with the pace of this very public process.


It occurs to me (after, in my defense, a really bad day), that you might be talking about your comments being lifted from AVS without permission. I do agree that anyone participating in these forums should not expect to see their words included in a letter to the Commissioners.

Originally posted by Geof
Think about this.....

The station bean counters sit around adding up the costs of a new building, new tower, new antenna, new transmitter, new filters, and a lot of other new stuff. On the other hand they can sit back and let SCARE drive them to using their existing NTSC infrastructure where they'd need very little of that new stuff. Big difference in capital expenditures. Money talks.

Then look at this from the viewership point of view..... most folks interested in getting HDTV also have cable or Satellite TV.....those bean counting brains are going....humm, we're already on cable and D* will be broadcasting HD LiL sometime this year. Why rush out to spend a lot of money for only a handful of viewers.....we can just sit back and let Cable and D* (and maybe even Dish) solve our delivery problems.

They have NO motive to get this done. And the FCC is too blind, and too stupid to figure this out.

Powell (the son, not his daddy) should have been fired long before now.

PS: I'm not ranting, just telling it like it is....

I promise not to say a single word here, not even in the 'rant' mode.
:mad:

Lawood was referring to the sCARE group of lawyers that 'broke the law' when they illegally copied his posts from this forum.

Originally posted by jasong911
It occurs to me (after, in my defense, a really bad day), that you might be talking about your comments being lifted from AVS without permission. I do agree that anyone participating in these forums should not expect to see their words included in a letter to the Commissioners.
I think that is what Lawood is referring to. Can someone supply a pointer to the post that was ripped off?

....jc

Guess I'm just prickly today. After having just been laid off, I'm not too rational.

...And no Hockey, Grrrr.

Sorry, Lawood.

--Jason

Originally posted by jasong911
Guess I'm just prickly today. After having just been laid off, I'm not too rational.
Bummer Jason! What industry?

Originally posted by jasong911
... I do agree that anyone participating in these forums should not expect to see their words included in a letter to the Commissioners.
It just goes to show everybody the scum that we are dealing with!

Steal This Steal This Steal This Steal This

Yup, I just called you sCARE people scum. Sue me! We are just looking for HDTV, NOT MONEY!

....jc

Ok, I feel better now:D

So can someone shed some light on why this "care" group is so adamantly against a TV tower? Do they think it'll turn them into zombies or something? Are they afraid of all things digital? Are they retarded? Are they just trying to postpone the MANDATORY FCC switch? What's the deal? I checked out their website but it was very vague and I got bored with it quickly and thus could not continue. Also, why don't other cities have people protesting full powered digital towers? Why us? Shouldn't we just nuke Golden and get it over with? We don't need them anyway, as Coors beer isn't that great.

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
So can someone shed some light on why this "care" group is so adamantly against a TV tower?
Joe, please go back and read some of the previous posts. I basically asked the same questions a while back, and it all boils down to MONEY.
....jc

Originally posted by jasong911
Lawood,

I was the one who "lifted" the quote from the 9News site.



Jason yes the quote was from the AVS forum. For anybody interested go the the following web site and click on Deb Carney letter. The whole article is interesting.

http://www.colorado-citymtnviews.com/AT-JeffCoApprovesSupertowr.php4

Originally posted by santellavision
Copyright, Schmoppyright, I just want my HDTV!

Hey, look... it's my 2000th post!

And 1999 of them BS'n about a damn tower. How sad is that. :P Sad. So, I cut back a while ago. Besides, I heard excessive posting would give you cancer (or you could go blind - I forget which);)

Ummm.. which previous posts? There are over 10,000 posts in this thread, and I'll be damned if I read all o' them!

I think that all started around page 450.

Ah page 450, where Ernie first used that satellite dish picture and said it was Jetlags house, good times.

I just skimmed over Deb Carney's letter (http://www.colorado-citymtnviews.com/AT-DebCarneyLtr_083004.php4)

She sounds like a real snake in the grass.
What's her beef with the Republican party connections anyways?

I looked around that area (page 450) but didn't find anything. All I found was boring conversations like:

Forum Member #1: The football game isn't in HD! Instead I get 14:9 SD.
Forum Member #2: You are a moron
Forum Member #1: I know that, but the game is supposed to be in HD!
Forum Member #2: I'll make a phone call
Forum Member #1: OK thanks
Forum Member #2: Nobody answered. They were probably taking a dump or making sweet, sweet love to each other. I left a message.
Forum Member #1: That did the trick! They flipped the switch! I guess I won't have to set the station on fire
Forum Member #2: You are a moron.
Forum Member #1: Yes I know, that has already been established.
Forum Member #2: Here is Geof's house and all of his radars
Forum Member #1: How do you pronounce "Geof"?
Forum Member #2: It's "Jee-Off", obviously.
Forum Member #1: That's what I thought.
Forum Member #3: I want to put an antennea on my roof
Forum Member #2: Sounds awesome. Post pictures when you have it up!
Forum Member #3: I will!
Forum Member #2: I can't wait to see them. I getting the Kleenex now!

So can someone just tell me why people are so adamantly against a full power HD tower on Lookout Mountain in a nutshell?

Jeff, it's pronounced Jeff.

OK, I think I'll just write this and save it in MS Word so I can just cut and paste it once a month or so.

The sCARE group has one agenda, eliminate ALL towers period. That's their mission statement. The reason is... if all the towers go away, their property values will skyrocket. The public perception is that any Powerlines, Radio & TV towers etc. are dangerous to live near. So, eliminate all of them and property value will increase. Especially on a beautiful scenic location like Lookout Mt.

Now, the reason sCARE's manifesto doesn't hold water is... They are all still living up there. If they were so worried about the danger to themselves and their children, wouldn't you move away from the danger? If you truly believed you were endangering your children, wouldn't you get the hell out of there asap? And I live up here too. I check the property values all the time, homes are moving at record pace and value. So, the claim of 'we can't sell our house because of the towers' is total BS. Bottom line, it's not about the danger, it's about Money.

And the second part of their claim is that no towers should be build near people. OK, then why were they so against building the LCGII tower (Or the Mt. Morrision tower) near people, but it's totally fine to build the tower on Squaw Mt? I guess no one from sCARE slums it and lives on Squaw Mt. So, it's fine to build a tower on that mountain and radiate those families and children. All because they're not in Jefferson county and are not rich Lawyers & Doctors.

I believe sCARE's going to lose in the long run. They're being so stubborn and near sighted on this issue. Things are going to end up worse if the tower doesn't get approved. What will happen is all the stations on Lookout will end up using their existing towers and omni directional antenna when they change out to DTV for NTSC. (Even thought this is still in dispute that they will legally be able to do it) sCARE would be so much better off if the LCGII tower is built with all directional antennas pointing toward Denver and away from the homes on Lookout. And the elimination of ugly towers on both Lookout and Mt. Morrison.

Originally posted by santellavision
sCARE would be so much better off if the LCGII tower is built with all directional antennas pointing toward Denver and away from the homes on Lookout. Only if you put some credence in their claim that the RF radiation is a hazard to begin with. I don't.

I do believe that anything in excess is bad. Just like feeding a rat 1000x the normal amount of Sacarin will no doubt cause cancer. And i'm sure that's what they'll do in the upcoming 'Dangers of RF' CSU study their behind.
"We found that this little 'ol, average, all american, bi-partisan, vegatarian rat, who watched an average of 4 hrs of DIGITAL television a day got CANCER!And of couse, they won't say that the rat was duct-taped to an antenna, with his genitals getting 50,000x the amount of RF allowed by law. Oh no... it'll just be he got cancer from DTV. See, told 'ya so. Now, all the towers have to go. Waaaaaa, Waaaaaa.

Originally posted by santellavision
OK, I think I'll just write this and save it in MS Word so I can just cut and paste it once a month or so.


Ernie,
I agree 100% with your assessment.

Originally posted by santellavision

And the second part of their claim is that no towers should be build near people. OK, then why were they so against building the LCGII tower (Or the Mt. Morrision tower) near people, but it's totally fine to build the tower on Squaw Mt? I guess no one from sCARE slums it and lives on Squaw Mt. So, it's fine to build a tower on that mountain and radiate those families and children. All because they're not in Jefferson county and are not rich Lawyers & Doctors.

I believe sCARE's going to lose in the long run. They're being so stubborn and near sighted on this issue. Things are going to end up worse if the tower doesn't get approved. What will happen is all the stations on Lookout will end up using their existing towers and omni directional antenna when they change out to DTV for NTSC. (Even thought this is still in dispute that they will legally be able to do it) sCARE would be so much better off if the LCGII tower is built with all directional antennas pointing toward Denver and away from the homes on Lookout. And the elimination of ugly towers on both Lookout and Mt. Morrison. \

Ernie
I agree with what you have said and it was well put. I would also remind you that (S)CARE was also in favor of putting the towers on Eldorado Mt. with the KBCO tower until Al Hislop (who was participating in our forum at the tieme) and I had an exchange about the power flux density levels on the residents of Elodorado. After I ran the numbers and showed him the residents in Eldorado Canyon would have higher levels than the Lookout folk with the new tower he dropped out of the forum discussions and a few days later (S)CARE reversed their position supporting Eldorado. That told me all I needed to know about their operation. It is not about safety, their first consideration is indeed about the money and their own property values. Also I am sure many of the old timers here remember that Al and others even were running businesses to put "RF shields" around Lookout homes and over windows to help 'protect' the residents from the dangerous radiation.
As Geoff also mentioned earlier, the LCG was really happy to accept of our support for many years, but when push comes to shove, they are obviously in no hurry to get those towers up either.
Bottom line, at least in my mind, is that both sides are in the business of stalling with money as the object. (S)CARE is presuming that if they can prevent the DTV towers from going up on Lookout, the stations will move to some other back yard and when the analog stations are shut down they will be rid of them for good. The LCG stations appear to be in 'no rush' to set up the expensive broadcast transmitters either since they will have to pay the bills to transmit analog and DTV. It is my opinion that the overall LCG strategy is to stall until the analog must be shut off and then switch the signals to DTV from their existing sites to save the entire cost of building, the cost of dual transmission, and maybe even the cost of self monitoring etc. included in the plan for the new tower. In the meantime, since their signal is available on cable and likely soon on DTV, they are in no hurry to get the towers up, and the FCC can be stalled by the toy transmitters they use from Denver. It is all a very convenient stall for the LCG as well.
In the meantime, the people getting screwed are the people of the front range like us, who are now having to pay (in many cases exorbitant costs) to buy special antennas and other specialized equipment just to be able to receive something every other major city in the country has available for free.

Mad, h3ll no I'm not mad, that is waaay too much of an understatement. That is why I generally never post here anymore, it is just too frustrating, and mostly I don't CARE anymore. Of course, then I just get even more angry reading the thread and I end up posting anyway. So much for 'self control'.
:mad:

Ugh !!!

O.K., I got my new pre-amp a Winegard HDP-269. So I hooked the pre-amp up about 3 feet from the antenna, then at the 100' mark I put in the power supply. When I did this all my signal strength went in the dumper. Even my strongest channel (32) went down to about 30 on the strength meter down from 90. Channel 35 which is the one that gives me the most problems went from 45 to 0 with the pre-amp in. I figured I must have done something wrong. I double checked everything but can't seem to find it. I put just the pre-amp piece in without the power supply and I still get a signal, although it is down about 10 points on the signal meter, but when I put the power supply unit in it all goes away. Yes it was plugged in and the little red light was on and I double double checked the direction of the cables.

Can anyone think of something I missed here? I guess I was hoping the pre-amp was going to be a magic pill that would let me get KCNC reliably.

Thanks
Joe

Joe,

It might be that the analog UHF stations are over-powering the pre-amp and thus hurting your DTV signal strength. As has been said before... Pre-amps are NOT a magic pill. They work about 1/2 the time

Bummer, I didn't think about the ANALOG stations over powering it. I guess maybe I could try one of the big bowtie antennas and see if that helps, ultimately I know that putting it outside would be the best solution, I just don't like that idea. I could also wait until D* has the Denver channels up, but then not sure what happens with my HDTIVO, time will tell there I guess.

I guess if anyone wants to try a pre-amp I know where they can get one :-)

Anyone have one of the big bow tie antennas (assuming it would fit in my attic) I could try or want to trade for a pre-amp?

Thanks
Joe

Originally posted by joej
...When I did this all my signal strength went in the dumper. Even my strongest channel (32) went down to about 30 on the strength meter down from 90. Channel 35 which is the one that gives me the most problems went from 45 to 0 with the pre-amp in. I figured I must have done something wrong. I double checked everything but can't seem to find it. I put just the pre-amp piece in without the power supply and I still get a signal, although it is down about 10 points on the signal meter, but when I put the power supply unit in it all goes away.
Joe, maybe it's a defective unit. I just did a test with mine, disconnected the power(AC), and left everything intact. I still got a signal, but obviously much weaker. With everything hooked up, but no AC, do you still get a signal on your strongest channel(ATSC or NTSC)?

You could be overloading your STB. I have done that with my Mits, and yup everything goes to 0. You could add a small attenuator at the amp output, that might help, either that or a less powerful preamp. Dumping the preamp, and switching to RG-11, will only give ya about a 1db gain over the frequencies that you are trying to obtain, but that is also an option.

Joe - double check your preamp - they are VERY specific about which one goes to the antenna and whichone goes to the power unit.

The other discussions about overpowering is also valid.

PS - the very BEST place to put an antenna is OUTSIDE, above the roofline. Then tell your neighbors that it is staying.

I didn't try it with everything hooked up but not plugged in. I'll give that a try here in a little bit and see if I still get a signal. I'm thinking I am over loading it as Lookout Mtn. is only off by maybe 45 degrees from the direction I am pointing, my two strongest channels with the antenna pointed toward Republic Plaza are KDVR and KWGN.

This is a pretty low power pre-amp at only 10db I think.

I know putting it outside would be much better, but it was a lot easier to put it in the attic, and usually the picture is o.k. up there but just lately I have been having problems on KCNC.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Thanks
Joe

Joe,
We're not trying to harp on this, but receiving OTA DTV is a literally, a game of inches and reflections. And by moving your antenna outside, it may be the only way to get a usable signal on most channels. Many of us have been through exactly what you are doing, trying to 'get by'. Mounting in the attic, trying pre-amps etc.

Remember, the tower is now about 2 years out (if the injunction is lifted) Just bite the bullet and mount the 'dang thing outside. You'll thank us later! ;)

Originally posted by santellavision
.....Remember, the tower is now about 2 years out (if the injunction is lifted)....
Optimist!

Originally posted by Geof
Jeff, it's pronounced Jeff.
I know. But I look and see "Jee-Off". I guess the "O" is silent.

Thanks Santavision for posting your Word document. Much appreciated. :)

So Ernie is Santa, I knew it!


Sorry, it wasn't on page 450 at all. I don't know what I was thinking about. I guess after digging around in 516 pages of broken promises and disappointments, it's easy to get confused! There’s some good stuff on 460 if you’re interested, I think Ernie pretty much summed it up though.

It sure would be nice to hear on the Senate floor the question put to Powell's replacement:
"In the Denver market (18) the digital transition is not progressing because the stations are pleased as punch not to have to expend money for full power DTV and Carney is pleased as punch to be well paid for fighting the tower consolidation without opposition. But the outcome is no digital transition in Denver. How would you solve it?"

(Sort of like what (s)CARE did to the new commishes).

The other fun thing is even if the TV towers go away, the FM stations on Lookout aren't going to move, nor are the TV station weather RADARs located there...

"In the Denver market (18) the digital transition is not progressing because the stations are pleased as punch not to have to expend money for full power DTV and Carney is pleased as punch to be well paid for fighting the tower consolidation without opposition. But the outcome is no digital transition in Denver. How would you solve it?"


Based on the way things now work in Washington...

Sir, the FCC has been working very hard to bring the new generation of digital television technology to all Americans. The Denver area is no exception. Hundreds of thousands of households in the Denver market are already receiving digital signals. With full surround sound no less.
http://milkfactory.typepad.com/milkfactory/see_no_evil.jpg
We are winning this battle, and spreading the freedom of digital signals throughout this great country. In fact, the Denver market is way ahead of some of the other markets according to some of our market penetration numbers...

Ah, yes, there was a time when our country motto had images like this:

Originally posted by jeffden
I had some problems with pixellation and breakups on KWGN-DT last night during Gilmore Girls. I didn't worry about it as I had seen the episode previously, but had never had problems with KWGN before. Just wanted to report.

Jeff

Also had problems with my 921 recording of Andromeda. Now, I can't lock 34 at all.

If you call today's FOX's HD broadcast of the current NFC Championship game HD football, think again. PQ is horrible as HD standards go, not much better than SD.

RIGHT NOW if you have HDNet they are re-airing the HBCU All Star Game. Check it out and you can view what a true HD football game should look like. Of all the football games broadcasted by CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX or ESPN, none of them compare in PQ to the High Definition broadcast of the football game shown on HDNet right now. Absolutely stunning. If you are able to view HDNets (1080i) HBCU game and compare it to FOX's (720p) NFC Championship game broadcast, FOX looks like SD, and at best 480p.

Too bad the Super Bowl could not be shown simultaneously on HDNet, if it was those viewing would know what all the rave is about HD, especially when HD is done right

Originally posted by rmaestas
If you call today's FOX's HD broadcast of the current NFC Championship game HD football, think again. PQ is horrible as HD standards go, not much better than SD.
Rant Mode On:
I have never seen a football game on Fox HD! Thank You KDVR, sCARE & Congress!
Rant Mode Off:

RIGHT NOW if you have HDNet they are re-airing the HBCU All Star Game. Check it out and you can view what a true HD football game should look like. Of all the football games broadcasted by CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX or ESPN, none of them compare in PQ to the High Definition broadcast of the football game shown on HDNet right now. Absolutely stunning. If you are able to view HDNets (1080i) HBCU game and compare it to FOX's (720p) NFC Championship game broadcast, FOX looks like SD, and at best 480p.
Yup, the PQ is nice. However, I've seen games on ABC & CBS that look pretty sweet also. I'll try a comparison with CBS when the AFC champoinship starts.:p
Too bad the Super Bowl could not be shown simultaneously on HDNet, if it was those viewing would know what all the rave is about HD, especially when HD is done right
Yea, then I could see the game in HD. :mad:
....jc