What the hell is HDNet? Internet HD? I want to watch HD over the internet, too! Can somebody please come over and hook this up for free (I probably won't even thank you for your time)? I have 3 whole megabits of internet downstream, which should be plenty for HD at the rates stations are compressing material these days.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
... I'll try a comparison with CBS when the AFC champoinship starts.
I don't think that the game on HDNET had PQ that was any better than that of the CBS game that I'm watching. But, I get HDNET on D*, so maybe that's the difference.

I do think that the networks need to educate the producers a little better. We can see when the camera is out of focus, and the sideline shots(from behind the bench), look like dogmeat when there is a heat source in between the camera and the field. Maybe they should watch their own productions. :p But, then again, there's that radiation factor!:o

KWGN seems to have gone completely dead for me. it was working fine yesterday as far as I can remember. all the other stations (except Ch 7 of course...) are still coming in same as before, but absolutely nothing on KWGN. first noticed it this afternoon, but it's still gone @ 8:33p. anyone else having problems?

Rob.

I haven't had KWGN either. I just figured my ant. had moved a tad. That's what happens most of the time anyway. I wonder if their server crashed? If so, I hope they get it fixed by Wed. There is finally a new Smallville on this Wed. after 2 months of repetes.

No KWGN for me either, it must be down, and of course still no ABC-DT.

I noticed that KWGN was out for me last night (early Sunday morning) sometime between 12 and 2 am. Still not up for me either...

I'm wondering if anyone has it...

KWGN was out for me also Saturday night. I got an signal strength of 80, but it wouldn't lock. I first noticed it about 10 PM. About 1 AM I got a lock, but the picture was all broken up. They apparently were having problems. Seemed to be working alright this morning about 11 AM.

Still no signal... Maybe Dave will stop by and tell us what's going on.

Yep KWGN is dead....

Is there something up with KMGH as well? Got a 0 second recording for Desperate Housewives and Boston Legal (PVR 921). Couldn't tune the channel till I did a rescan. Have they mucked with the PSIP?
(got lucky, had a feeling, backed it up on an SD PVR).

If you call today's FOX's HD broadcast of the current NFC Championship game HD football, think again. PQ is horrible as HD standards go, not much better than SD.rmaestas, are you watching it on a 1080i native display or a 720p display? That could be your issue. If your display is converting FOX's 720p signal to your diplays native 1080i, then maybe it's the scaler that's not up to snuff?

Originally posted by David_Levin
Yep KWGN is dead....
Same here - bummer - new Gilmore Girls and Smallville this week. Hope they get it fixed tomorrow :(
Originally posted by David_Levin
Is there something up with KMGH as well? Got a 0 second recording for Desperate Housewives and Boston Legal (PVR 921).
That's normal :p [edit: darn, I'm tired. I could've sworn you said 0 signal strength reading not second recording. ]

I got my new pre-amp a Winegard HDP-269.

I was going to do some analysis of your pre-amp, but I don't find that model number on the Winegard site nor is it listed on the Stark Electronics site. Are you sure your pre-amp is a Winegard HDP-269?

I think Fox HD broadcasts of the NFL are as good as it gets. Equal to ESPN's Sunday night HD NFL games, which I consider the gold standard of HD football games. It may be like was mentioned above and your scaler isn't doing the job. If your letting your E* receiver do the scaling, that may be the problem. Set the E* receiver to 720p for Fox HD boardcasts and let your DTV's scaler do the scaling (assuming your DTV is 1080i native).

Ah, you beat me to it. I was just going to post that link

Thanks guys, that is the one, and I got it from Solid Signal. I didn't get a chance to play with it anymore on Sunday, I didn't want to take a chance of messing things up to the point I couldn't watch the games.

Thanks
Joe

Originally posted by dr_mal

That's normal :p [edit: darn, I'm tired. I could've sworn you said 0 signal strength reading not second recording. ]

That's ok - it's a Dish PVR 921 thing. There seems to be a number of things that cause it to lose/forget a channel (PSIP change, loss of lock, weak signal). When the happens it can't be tuned till rescanned.

Even more annoying is that the timer appears to fire. The record light comes on, but it ends up with a 0 length recording.

All,

Sorry for the late post, but, on Saturday night we had a major failure with our HD transport stream that caused a loss of transmitter control at the studio and severe breakup in the HD content. FCC law requires the station to have remote transmitter control and if not capable, man the transmitter site 24/7. Of course, due to the picture breakup we decided to turn off our transmitter until we can isolate and repair the problem. We will do our best to return the HD service as soon as possible.

Thanks!

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

Thanks for the update, Dave. Bad week for having HD problems!

A bad week indeed! Thanks, Dave.

I'm curious if anyone here has tried to get an HD waiver from kmgh. I'd sure like a shot at an ABC HD signal. Who did you mail or email and how did it end up?

I was looking around their website looking for some info and came across this, asking about the quality of HD vs SD:

Here is a traditional image resolution:


http://images.ibsys.com/2002/0513/1455534.jpg

Here is an HDTV image:
http://images.ibsys.com/2002/0513/1455535.jpg

Now, those are nice images to show the difference between HD and SD, but does anyone else notice anything about those pictures??? If I'm not mistaken, they are from the NCAA Basketball Tournament. And this tournament is broadcast by CBS. But Denver's ABC station is putting pictures from CBS on their website? Strange. You would thing that they would put up some Monday Night Football pictures. Or Lost....

This was found here:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/denvers7/1455530/detail.html

A true SD/HD comparison would not shrink the pics, and would provide the most "Wow there IS a difference" factor.

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
A true SD/HD comparison would not shrink the pics, and would provide the most "Wow there IS a difference" factor.
Actually, a true comparison would use the same picture in both resolutions. But, what do ya expect from a station that's probably using a battery powered toy Rat Shack transmitter!
....jc

I don't know what's been shrunk. SD is 4:3 and HD is 16:9. The pictures clearly show the differences of aspect ratio. To modify either would be misrepresenting reality. I agree that using the same scene (at least the same game :) ) in both shots would be nice but it doesn't take much gazing to see that the HD image is vastly superior.

Yup. Channel 7 is doing a very fair job of showing us how good CBS-HD is!
:D

I think Cnet.com wrote that. A lot of affiliates use that article on their pages, so there are actually quite a few ABC (and some NBC) affiliates showing how great CBS-HD is!

Top of the page! :D

Geof,

I am talking about the overall resolution. Neither screen posted on the last page has that few pixels. It is a good representation of the aspect ratio, but not of the overall difference between SD and HD picture quality.

Can someone loan me an HD camera? I will do the comparison, post the pics here, and then keep the camera. Thanks.

I don't think there are too many HD capable computer monitors in use and trying to display a full HD picture on a non HD screen has it's own set of problems. If both scenes have been down rez'd by the same percentage it should be good enough to convey the point of the comparison.

I have to laugh at KUSA's Weather+ "demo" now, as they were using a very bad analog tape for the audio track since you could hear it wow and flutter and slow down and come back up to speed.

I still can't believe they're wasting bandwidth on this and don't know anyone with an HD set would just look up weather information online if they needed it, but they must think they can make revenue from it somehow :(

I kinda got sidetracked there, but my original question was whether anyone had any luck getting a waiver from KMGH for the ABC-HD feed on D*. I think I know the answer, but...

Originally posted by mknoebel
I kinda got sidetracked there, but my original question was whether anyone had any luck getting a waiver from KMGH for the ABC-HD feed on D*. I think I know the answer, but...
I think it's out of their hands now. I was told by D*, that since the new law went into effect, you can't get a national feed(DNS) if you are in a DMA in which D* is broadcasting the locals. SOL. And, D* wouldn't even try to get me a waiver.
....jc

Originally posted by kucharsk
I still can't believe they're wasting bandwidth on this and don't know anyone with an HD set would just look up weather information online if they needed it, but they must think they can make revenue from it somehow :( I have a hard time believing anyone would sit through 20 minutes of murders and fires to get the weather report, but obviously a lot of people do just that.

As a cheapskate who doesn't get cable or satellite, I'm intrigued as to whether this will get me workable equivalent to the Weather Channel. Fortunately, none of my favorite HD shows are on NBC. I do think they could minimize the HD quality loss by using a more of a slideshow style display during evening primetime.

All,

After some diligent troubleshooting, WB2 is back on the air in the HD environment. We may have a slight interruption of service later this week when a part is replaced but down time should be nominal.

Thanks for your patience!!

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
I think it's out of their hands now. I was told by D*, that since the new law went into effect, you can't get a national feed(DNS) if you are in a DMA in which D* is broadcasting the locals. SOL. And, D* wouldn't even try to get me a waiver.
....jc

That is correct. HD Waivers are not available for non-O&O because D* has Denver analog locals.

Don

Thanks Dave!!!! :)

I don't think there are too many HD capable computer monitors in use and trying to display a full HD picture on a non HD screen has it's own set of problems.

What are you talking about Geof? Computer monitors are more than capable of displaying HD pictures.

Well actually I am having D* send a tester out to confirm that I don't have a signal (digital only) from KMGH or KUSA. I will post the results I live just south of Loveland.

In order for me to get D* to send the paper work I had them transfer me to the HD group first before asking the question.

I would encourage everyone who is D* customer to have the test done which proves no output from KMGH and then they get the bill for the test. Maybe a little economic push to release the waivers.


Originally posted by mknoebel
I kinda got sidetracked there, but my original question was whether anyone had any luck getting a waiver from KMGH for the ABC-HD feed on D*. I think I know the answer, but...

Originally posted by donyoop
That is correct. HD Waivers are not available for non-O&O because D* has Denver analog locals.

Don

Well, that's what I thought, too. But I have a buddy that had the ABC West HD channel turned on for him. He was talking to a CSR about turning on NBC also, and she said, "No, the waiver won't work for NBC, just CBS, FOX and ABC."

He, of course, didn't ask any more questions and he's enjoying three out of the four networks. I was just checking to see if anyone was in this same situation.

Originally posted by colofan
Well actually I am having D* send a tester out to confirm that I don't have a signal (digital only) from KMGH or KUSA. I will post the results I live just south of Loveland.

In order for me to get D* to send the paper work I had them transfer me to the HD group first before asking the question.

I would encourage everyone who is D* customer to have the test done which proves no output from KMGH and then they get the bill for the test. Maybe a little economic push to release the waivers.

colofan,

Can you be a little more speicific about what "paper work" you had them send to you? I'll definitely call them and have them check things out.

Originally posted by colofan
Well actually I am having D* send a tester out to confirm that I don't have a signal (digital only) from KMGH or KUSA. I will post the results I live just south of Loveland.
Cool. Maybe a new option for my Fox HDless household! So, they'll check fir digital only now? Their 'toy' doesn't distinguish between analog & digital.

Definitely keep us posted(with all the details)! That may be the only way I'll get to see a football game on Fox in the next few years.
....jc

Originally posted by colofan
Well actually I am having D* send a tester out to confirm that I don't have a signal (digital only) from KMGH or KUSA. I will post the results I live just south of Loveland.

In order for me to get D* to send the paper work I had them transfer me to the HD group first before asking the question.

I would encourage everyone who is D* customer to have the test done which proves no output from KMGH and then they get the bill for the test. Maybe a little economic push to release the waivers.

If it is a signal-strength test only, be careful that they don't see the strong signal on 17 from PAX in Ft. Collins and say "yep, plenty of signal on 17".

But isn't the PAX station an analog signal which is what I am requesting is strictly DTV signals.

Originally posted by Symbios
What are you talking about Geof? Computer monitors are more than capable of displaying HD pictures. Not on my laptop, or on the machine I use at work.

Joe was saying that the HD/SD comparison was not good because it did not show all the pixels…Certainly there are computer monitors capable of displaying HD but that requires it to have a resolution of 1080x1920. I may be wrong but I doubt the majority of computer users have displays capable of that resolution.

Originally posted by colofan
But isn't the PAX station an analog signal which is what I am requesting is strictly DTV signals.

Actually, KMGH-DT(17) transmits an analog signal also (or at least some electrons fall off their antenna). It is only in the receiver that it is demodulated and fed into an analog-to-digital converter to extract the digital signal. What I'm saying is: if they only are looking at how many millivolts they get on that frequency, and do not try to demonstrate that it is indeed coming from KMGH-DT, that they could use the signal from Ft. Collins as being a receivable signal and not recognize the competition on that frequency. Normally, the FCC won't assign two stations in a given market the same frequency. Denver, however, by and large, falls through the cracks in every way when it comes to the FCC. We simply don't exist in their minds.

Originally posted by oxothuk
I have a hard time believing anyone would sit through 20 minutes of murders and fires to get the weather report, but obviously a lot of people do just that.
I can't believe people don't just look out their own window for a weather report!

HERE is a full-resolution 1080i image grabbed off of CBS (http://www.redifer.com/webimages/JoanOfArcadia.jpg). Even if you have to scroll the image around to see the whole thing, you will see how many pixels HD can have, and how it creams SD.

Even if you have to scroll the image around to see the whole thing, you will see how many pixels HD can have, and how it creams SD.The only way I can see all of the pixels in your shot is if I do NOT allow my computer the resize it....my display can only show 1280x854 pixels - if I let the browser resize it it throws out pixels. Regardless, this is off topic so I think we should just drop it.

Well, I've become a complete HD-OTA convert.

Today I return my Comcast receiver box and discontinued service.

The only channels I watched previously were the HD local channels (& HD HBO).

Now I'm saving $70/month and getting almost the same amount of channels I used to watch (who really needs 200+ channels?).

I'll miss HBO, but I can get all their good shows from NetFlix eventually :D

Originally posted by 5.10-Crux
Well, I've become a complete HD-OTA convert. Welcome to the club. The only time I switch to analog is when there is some sporting event I really want to watch on ABC. From Highlands Ranch, you probably don't even need to do that.

Originally posted by oxothuk
Welcome to the club. The only time I switch to analog is when there is some sporting event I really want to watch on ABC. Or, earlier this week, if you wanted to watch anything on KWGN. :(

(It's amazing how I've become used to seeing Gilmore Girls in HD... :D)

Yeah luckily, I can get HD-ABC from Highlands Ranch.
I just wish they would fix the pixelation problem in the center/left of the screen.

I still was unable to get WB2 last night, guess I'll try rescanning tonight.

I sent a message to Rick Craddock at KMGH about the problem with their HD picture on the left middle of the screen. I also asked about DD 5.1. He passed it along to Dave Stromberg ( Dave_Stromberg@kmgh.com ). Here is his reply to me:

Hi Dennis,

I noticed this pixelating last night as well. We went back to 5.1 Dolby Digital last night after installing a Dolby 583 Frame Sync. The pixelating problem appears to be coming from the HD Encoder so we are looking into what could cause this. Have you just recently noticed this or has it been there for a while?


Thanks for the feedback,
_______________________


I have only noticed this for the last couple of weeks now. Perhaps others have more experience to relate to them than me.

Okay I know this is an old subject about the tower and I have only read the last 150 pages of this pt3 thread. But I will ask anyway.

Has anyone called up on KOA when the Governor is on the line and ask if there is anything that the State of Colorado can do to resolve this whole land use issue with the tower. After all this affects an area much larger than just the immediate land owners. Could the state provide some relief in ordering the application to go through?

I am very fuzzy when it comes to the state laws superseding the county/local jurisdiction. I am afraid to ask any lawyers on that might have an answer to this question?

Originally posted by colofan
I am very fuzzy when it comes to the state laws superseding the county/local jurisdiction. I am afraid to ask any lawyers on that might have an answer to this question? Colorado has a pretty strong tradition of local control, and I just don't think the lack of DTV is going to be perceived by the legislature as enough of a crisis to go against the grain. Many of them have been local officials in the past. And both parties have some memory of when the other controlled the legislature, so they might be loth to set precedents that might work against them in the future.

Watching the Lost repeat and Alias last night, it was apparent to me that KMGH was able to get their encoder fixed sometime yesterday, as well as get the DD5.1 equipment back online, as both were in DD5.1, and I saw none of the picture problems.

I talked to Rick about it this morning. He also wanted to know what I thought of the guide data they're sending out now. Any of the other 19 people around able to see their PSIP data? I can't with my hipix cards or any of my Dish receivers.

Originally posted by markdl
He also wanted to know what I thought of the guide data they're sending out now. Any of the other 19 people around able to see their PSIP data? I can't with my hipix cards or any of my Dish receivers.
#19 Reporting Sir! Here's what I get on the Guide for my Mits:
7-1 KMGH HD General Hospital
7-2 KMGH DT General Hospital

Now my D* receiver has a mind of it's own, and does not display this info. All I get for 7-* is 'Regular Schedule', and think that's because however D* programmed this thing, it doesn't think I s/b getting this channel. If I look at ABC KRDO(C/S), it gives a title & full description.

....jc

I'll have to check tonight to see if I am receiving the guide info for ABC.

I did notice that Lost and Alias were in DD5.1, unfortunately the signal was breaking up too much so I had to switch back to SD :mad: :mad: :mad:

I wonder how much better signal I would get if I mounted my antenna on the roof instead of in the attic.

I also wonder how many Highlands Ranch HOA narcs would be breathing down my neck for the 'un-sightly antenna'.

_____________________________________________________
RESIDENTIAL IMPROVEMENT GUIDELINES
2.6 Antennas/Satellite Dishes. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 (“Act”) was signed into law on February 8, 1996. Pursuant to the Act, the Federal Communication Commission (“FCC”) adopted a rule effective October 14, 1996 (“the FCC Rule”), preempting certain restrictions in the governing documents of homeowner’s associations concerning the installation, maintenance, and use of direct broadcast satellite (“DBS”), television broadcast (“TBS”), and multi point distribution service antennas (“MMDS”) (“antennas/dishes”).

In response to the FCC Rule, and due to the development of recent technology, the Architectural Committee adopted the following reasonable restrictions and guidelines governing installation, maintenance, and the use of antennas/dishes in the best interest of the Community and consistent with the FCC Rule.

A. Antenna size and type.

1. DBS and MMDS antennas/dishes that are one (1) meter (39”) or less in diameter and for personal use of a homeowner may be installed. DBS and
MMDS antennas/dishes larger than one (1) meter are prohibited.

2. All antennas/dishes not covered by the FCC Rule are prohibited.
__________________________________________________________

If you're getting an intermittant signal from the attic, I would think you'd get a solid lock on the roof.

Legally, I don't think they can stop you from putting the antenna up.
I'm a bit North of you (north of E470 @ University).

I have the $22 Radio Shack Yagi and get a great lock (an all channels - ABC is in the 80's). I also am at the top of the hill which I'm sure is helping (my next door neighbor got ABC with a Rabbit Ears on a new Cable Card Mitsubishi).

That Yagi isn't very large and is not all that noticable up there.

I love all of these 'HOA' jerks that try to control people's lives!

Originally posted by 5.10-Crux
I also wonder how many Highlands Ranch HOA narcs would be breathing down my neck for the 'un-sightly antenna'.
They can try, but they can't do much.

Notice what they published:

A. Antenna size and type.

1. DBS and MMDS antennas/dishes that are one (1) meter (39”) or less in diameter and for personal use of a homeowner may be installed. DBS and
MMDS antennas/dishes larger than one (1) meter are prohibited.

2. All antennas/dishes not covered by the FCC Rule are prohibited.


Notice what they didn't publish:


o commercially-available analog and digital television antennas.

It looks like they purposely left that little item out. Geez, I wonder why? Notice that the FCC rules do not specify a size for OTA antennas.

....jc

Doesn't matter WHAT the HOA's rules read - OTA antennas OF ANY SIZE REQUIRED to receive your local programming are permitted, so long as they are less than 12 feet above the roofline (higher with approvals). Read the link in my sig for more details.

Question on getting local HD channels via DirectTV. If a person, hypothetically, were to use a billing address in the Metro New York City, would that allow the reception of all the local HD channels for New York City? Is it as simple as a phone call saying change my billing address to 123 Main St, NYC.... provided of course a person had a valid address? Any potential problems with doing this?

Thanks....

Originally posted by skyview
Question on getting local HD channels via DirectTV. If a person, hypothetically, were to use a billing address in the Metro New York City, would that allow the reception of all the local HD channels for New York City? Is it as simple as a phone call saying change my billing address to 123 Main St, NYC.... provided of course a person had a valid address? Any potential problems with doing this?
Not your billing address, but your 'service' address(where you supposedly live). You can send the bill elsewhere.

Downside? If you order PPV thru your receiver, they could catch the difference in area codes when the receiver 'calls home to mama'. And, of course, you will lose your current local channels(if you subscribe to them).

Another Thought...
If you tried to 'move' to an area other than NY or LA(the DNS cities), since D* is using 'spot beam' technology for locals, and you don't live within the 'spot', you are also SOL.

People are 'moving', and there are other threads that discuss it.
....jc

can you post a link to the "other threads" that are discussing that option...
thanks!

Two questions for y'all:

#1
Why are people talking about DirectTV and whatnot in the OTA thread? Does satellite actually count as "OTA" technically? Shouldn't those discussions be in the "From outer space" thread?

#2
Has anyone complained to KUSA about how bad their HD looks during transitions within the past week or two? It seems to me like they have no intention of getting any better.

Why is it that the Denver thread has by far the most posts compared to any other city? Not only do we have 2 times more posts, but we're on part 3!!! Is is because of this antenna tower issue? Or, do we just have more HDTV fanatics here? :) Either way, it's nice (that there are a lot of people on this board, not that we have a tower issue) becuase I know a lot of people read this thread, so getting help is usually quick! Thanks!

In response to Joe Redifer....

#1) There is a Comcast thread and an OTA thread. Since we don't have OTA, we sometimes talk about DirecTV and Dish in this thread. ;)

#2) What do you mean by "during transitions" ?

Originally posted by mikeaco
Why is it that the Denver thread has by far the most posts compared to any other city? Not only do we have 2 times more posts, but we're on part 3!!! Is is because of this antenna tower issue? Or, do we just have more HDTV fanatics here? :) Either way, it's nice (that there are a lot of people on this board, not that we have a tower issue) becuase I know a lot of people read this thread, so getting help is usually quick! Thanks! I doubt we have any more HDTV fanatics per capita than other parts of the country. But because of the tower issue, all of us have to deal with marginal reception and the technical challenges that go with it. In other cities those issues just apply to the distant exurbs.

And the legal battle over the tower is unique to Denver. If Deb Carney lived somewhere else we'd be reading about the problems there.

Originally posted by weldon

#2) What do you mean by "during transitions" ?

I still see them too - especially during the news, when the camera is first switched in (from a commercial, screen graphic, or whatever), to Adele there is an extremely brief time (fraction of a second) where the screen is sharp, then it immediately becomes a fuzzy image (worse than SD), which slowly gains in sharpness again over the next 5 seconds. Very annoying to me. It appears most noticeable on Adele, for whatever reason, but there for others as well.

Can anyone be present at the July 2005 hearing with Judge Jackson?

It would be interesting to listen in on what both sides have to say, since I'm learning about all this HDTV tower stuff late.

To all
I dropped a quick note to Pete last week when we found out about the July 22 court date to ask what he knew about it and ask how it might impact things (i.e. if it is sent back to Jeffco again there are a new set of commissioners). His reply was very short and shed no light on the subject.

"The hearing is set for July 22nd because that was the earliest court date available."

Don't know if he just didn't have time to send more information or is just getting fed up with the delays too. I can only guess.

At any rate, just thought I would pass his comment along to you all.
:confused:


Originally posted by colofan
............
Has anyone called up on KOA when the Governor is on the line and ask if there is anything that the State of Colorado can do to resolve this whole land use issue with the tower. After all this affects an area much larger than just the immediate land owners. Could the state provide some relief in ordering the application to go through?

I am very fuzzy when it comes to the state laws superseding the county/local jurisdiction. I am afraid to ask any lawyers on that might have an answer to this question?

Actually, I tried about three years ago to work with my local state representatives in the Senate and the House to see if we could get the topic brought up on the floor or at least in one of the committees. There was some interest during the Eldorado Mt. hearing time frame until Eldorado was ruled out, and then the interest died. I got a lot of support and promises, but nothing was ever done. My ultimate conclusion is that no one in the State legislature of the Gov's office will touch this one with a ten foot "poll" (Pun intended). Either way you go you stand to alienate a whole lot of potential voters. (Especially ones with large disposable incomes on both sides.....it's politics, money talks!)

:mad:

Me???? I'm not frustrated, I passed that phase 3 years ago. I am waaay beyond that now!

This is off-topic but I know many in this thread are curious about the HD future of D*/OTA/Locals etc. The below info has been posted in various forums concerning HD D*:

BREAKING!!!

Directv Announce How MPEG4 Conversion will happen!

Directv announced today that MPEG4 will start at the beginning of 2nd half of the 2005 year. The first markets will benefit first then slowly everyone else who will benefit from MPEG4 HD. Directv also announced that current HD custmers who have HD and will have their HD boxes upgraded at Directv's expense in which they will cover the cost for in 2006! Also Local HD is not only on the agenda, National HD channels will be launched as well!!!

This info came from the Live Conference call today at 1pm:

From the opening remarks:

Things we expect to allow D* to leapfrog the competition:

Our announced plan to offer later this year a more advanced DVR, and dramatically expand our HD program. We will also introduce a product that we be a transforming product for both our company and the industry. The Home Media Center, or Home Gateway as we may refer to it, is being developed in-house by DirecTV. It will provide whole-house connectivity with all multimedia systems with mobility for devices outside the home. And since we control the design and architecture, I’m confident that over time, the Home Gateway will drive our customer retention costs lower. I say this for a few reasons.

First, since the Home Gateway will provide, HDTV, DVR and other home media services throughout the house, our upgrade or retention costs should be lower. We also expect to save on installation costs when we are able to connect the system wirelessly. We will introduce a revised marketing offer more akin to a lease plan. And finally we are designing the system to be very flexible and easily upgradeable.


From the Q&A period:

We’ll have the upgrade to MPEG 4 at the early part of the second half of the year and we will clearly convert our HD customers which at today’s numbers are about half a million. The people that sign up for the Spaceway services will be timed so that they will be receiving Spaceway capable, or MPEG4 set top boxes. So you would not have a conversion required for those new customers that are signing up for the Spaceway services. What we will have is a set of customers that take HD that will have to be converted to be able to receive the Ka signal, so it will have to be the customers who don’t work on Spaceway that will have to be converted and that will be a potential marketing cost that we’ll have to bear in ’05 or rather early ’06.

..: …and it will be staggered, the first wave will be 12 markets, and then more thereafter. So I think around the same time, if all goes well and our Home Gateway is introduced, the conversion may be part of that, not just going to your house and replacing some equipment. Part of a whole new issue to the home.

Do you expect that you will be going to MPEG 4 for all of your CONUS or national HD programming as well for efficiency reasons….?

Yeah, it will clearly be a transition – there will still be customers well into ’06 that will still be getting HD programming over the Legacy based – we’re only talking about the half million existing customers, all new customers that buy into the Spaceway sats will be getting HD LIL’s and National HD channels over MPEG4. It’s the Legacy customers that will be converted over ’05 & ’06…or converted over time to MPEG4.

Great thread! Just moved from NW suburbs of Chicago to the foothills above Boulder. Big improvement all around except for HDTV options. The good news is I can see the Denver skyline from the house and am getting strong OTA signals (Hi 80's to lo 90's via DST-3000) for NBC and CBS. Also PBS. Thanks to this thread, I didn't waste any time fussing about ABC. The bad news is I was hoping for an HD superbowl and, of course, I can't even get a blip from FOX...probably because there's a rocky ridge just west of my house that blocks signals from Lookout mountain. (I hope I'm dead wrong about this or my OTA options may be going down the drain if/when towers built) Plan B was to get FOX HD from D* but I gather from this thread and one call to D* that I may be outta luck. Anybody in my neck of the woods, or anywhere for that matter, have suggestions?

3doghiker, welcome to Colorado. You might want to try picking up the Ft. Collins FOX repeater. I think it is 22-1 (might be 21-1, can't remember which). I'm not sure if you'd have it a shot at it but being up high might help your chances.

Originally posted by skyview
Question on getting local HD channels via DirectTV. If a person, hypothetically, were to use a billing address in the Metro New York City, would that allow the reception of all the local HD channels for New York City? Is it as simple as a phone call saying change my billing address to 123 Main St, NYC.... provided of course a person had a valid address? Any potential problems with doing this? I did this for a month to not get blacked out of Avs hockey on ESPN HD. Works fine but you get NY locals and your TV clock and guide is two hours ahead. Makes it confusing to look ahead in the guide.Originally posted by Joe Redifer
Why are people talking about DirectTV and whatnot in the OTA thread? Does satellite actually count as "OTA" technically? Shouldn't those discussions be in the "From outer space" thread? :D I guess when it comes from outer space it still has to go through the air. :)
Actually, E* and D* dialogue is technically on-topic since they are an alternative to the abysmal state of OTA DTV.

3doghiker,
If you have DirecTv, you should be eligible to receive FOXW-HD (Ch. 89) because we are in an owned and operated market for FOX. I would give them another call!!

Originally posted by 3doghiker
The good news is I can see the Denver skyline from the house and am getting strong OTA signals (Hi 80's to lo 90's via DST-3000) for NBC and CBS. Also PBS. Thanks to this thread, I didn't waste any time fussing about ABC. The bad news is I was hoping for an HD superbowl and, of course, I can't even get a blip from FOX...probably because there's a rocky ridge just west of my house that blocks signals from Lookout mountain. Welcome to Boulder. As I like to say, it's all downhill from here!

Most of us have the opposite problem from you. We can pick up FOX and WB with a coathanger, but have to tune our setups carefully to get the downtown channels.

Just a thought, but you might try playing around with antenna directions to see if there's some orientation where you get a strong enough reflection to lock.

Iwanthd...
Are you receiving Fox HD from D*? If so, how long did it take for you to get it turned on? I have been waiting about a month since I called and asked them to turn in a waiver for me.

Originally posted by musiclover408
...I have been waiting about a month since I called and asked them to turn in a waiver for me.
408, where are you located? Fox is something I also need badly!

I called D* today to request a 'signal test'. The lady told me that she had to send me paperwork, and that I needed to fill it out and send it back. And, then she told me that even if I can't receive a signal, the request can be denied. I guess this is another indication that 'We The People' now means 'We The Corporations'. Aaarrrrgggg.

I also asked about HD LIL for Denver, she only told me about the original 12 cities, and said that maybe Denver will get them in 2006. I think that she was guessing, as that's all she knew. Hopefully Denver will still be 'in' for '05(When I 'move' to the Denver DMA).

Ron, I assume that if you 'move', then all of the receivers on your account 'move'. Can anyone confirm that?

If anyone thinks that this is a violation of the current topic, tough. You do have the right to contact your local HOA and complain.
....jc

I live in Aurora...and currently am getting CBS HD (west coast feed) from D* totally free. I was denied by NBC. I am still waiting to hear back from Fox and ABC. I have no idea what "paperwork" that needs to be sent to you. All you should have to do is called them and ask them to submit the waivers to the networks on your behalf. You then will get a postcard letting you know if it was granted or denied.

Good luck!

Originally posted by musiclover408
...I have no idea what "paperwork" that needs to be sent to you. All you should have to do is called them and ask them to submit the waivers to the networks on your behalf. You then will get a postcard letting you know if it was granted or denied.

The paperwork is for the 'signal test'. I'm sure it obligates me to pay a fee if the test is positive(they say I can receive the signal). Someone has to physically come out to your location to do the test.

I already did the 'waiver thing', and I got NBC(for a fee). The new laws have changed things. I was told that if you are in a DMA in which D* broadcasts the locals, they aren't even allowed. There is so much misinformation and BS on this issue, it's pathetic. I suppose that a station can grant a waiver, even though the 'law' is on their side.

If anyone thinks that this is a violation of the current topic, tough. You do have the right to contact your local HOA and complain.
....jc

3dog & musiclover,
The FoxW-HD was automatically added to my account when it came on the air. I subscribe to the HD Pack and Denver locals through DirecTv. I don't believe that you should have to go through the waiver process since we are in an O & O market. Denver is listed on this page on the D* website as a market that is available. Refer to this page when you call them.

http://www.directv.com/see/landing/fox_hd.html

KLWY from Wyoming prevents most people in the North metro area from having Fox turned on automatically on D*, since theoretically they're providing a Grade B signal. I believe that obtaining a waiver from them would allow Fox to be turned on, even under the new rules, but there is enough confusion surrounding the issue that I can't be certain.

Been a while since I did this, but wasn't there a page on the D* site in the HD section that took your zip and told you what stations claimed coverage in your area? Seems like I looked at the page when FOX was coming on, and they only had KDVR listed, so the FOX W HD came on for me without my even having to request it since they are O&O. I did have to get the waiver from Cheyenne to get CBS turned on but that only took a day. As for ABC and NBC, I won't go there.........

Originally posted by JMartinko
Been a while since I did this, but wasn't there a page on the D* site in the HD section that took your zip and told you what stations claimed coverage in your area? Seems like I looked at the page when FOX was coming on, and they only had KDVR listed, so the FOX W HD came on for me without my even having to request it since they are O&O. I did have to get the waiver from Cheyenne to get CBS turned on but that only took a day. As for ABC and NBC, I won't go there.........

This is what they have there now:

New legislation has changed the eligibility rules for DNS (Distant Network Service). We are currently updating our online search tool and are temporarily unable to evaluate whether you are eligible for DNS service. Please note that DNS can no longer be offered in any market where we offer Local into Local network programming. We're sorry for any inconvenience — please check back in early 2005 to determine your DNS eligibility.
:confused:

http://www.directv.com/see/landing/dns.html

Originally posted by JMartinko
Been a while since I did this, but wasn't there a page on the D* site in the HD section that took your zip and told you what stations claimed coverage in your area?...
There was, and now it's been replaced with this:
New legislation has changed the eligibility rules for DNS (Distant Network Service). We are currently updating our online search tool and are temporarily unable to evaluate whether you are eligible for DNS service. Please note that DNS can no longer be offered in any market where we offer Local into Local network programming. We're sorry for any inconvenience — please check back in early 2005 to determine your DNS eligibility.
Inconvenience this!
So, if I want decent HD coverage, either: The Denver stations will have to go to full power(hahaha, hehehe, hohoho, I'm killing myself here), or I 'move' to an area where I can get them. Ouch, my stomach still hurts!
....jc

Oops, post collision!

Iwanthd...thanks a million!

Called D* this morning, mentioned the webpage to the first CSR and was immediately patched thru to the "HD eligibility" group. Sure enough, I was eligible for FOX and CBS but not NBC or ABC, which is consistent with the webpages. There was no mention of waivers and the west coast feeds for FOX and CBS were turned on while I was on the phone. And I didn't need to sub to the HD package...just needed to be paying for the locals. Funny but when I asked the CSR I talked to yesterday to let me talk to the HD eligibility group, she basically refused and said I had to sub to the HD package just to see if I could get a FOX feed. Thanks again and GO PATS in HD!

Not being an engineer I'm often confused by the language on this site, but I have a question. Is MPEG4 an upgrade from MPEG2? Will the signal be better or will D* just able to get more HD channels into their available bandwidth?
Concerning the replacement of D* HD receivers, if Ive read correctly are they planning to replace all receivers or only non-tivo receivers? Does anyone know if 'becoming obsolete' is covered under Soundtrack's extended warantee?

Originally posted by tngjsv
Not being an engineer I'm often confused by the language on this site, but I have a question. Is MPEG4 an upgrade from MPEG2? Will the signal be better or will D* just able to get more HD channels into their available bandwidth? MPEG4 is a more efficient set of algorithms for compressing video signals. So it allows you to get a better quality picture for the same bit rate, or to use fewer bits for the same picture quality. So D* could use the the efficiency gains in MPEG4 to improve either quality or quantity - it comes down to a business decision on their part.

The downside of MPEG4 is that it is less efficient in terms of processing power required for encoding (by D*) and decoding (in your receiver STB). But we've had a few more cranks of Moore's law in the interval between when MPEG2 and MPEG4 were designed.

Originally posted by tngjsv
Not being an engineer I'm often confused by the language on this site, but I have a question. Is MPEG4 an upgrade from MPEG2? Will the signal be better or will D* just able to get more HD channels into their available bandwidth?
Concerning the replacement of D* HD receivers, if Ive read correctly are they planning to replace all receivers or only non-tivo receivers? Does anyone know if 'becoming obsolete' is covered under Soundtrack's extended warantee?

Yes, MPEG4 is an upgrade from MPEG2. You will also read about 8PSK to be used with MPEG4 as opposed to QPSK. 8PSK is 8 phase key shifting whereas QPSK is quadrature phase key shifting. Phase key shifting is a digital frequency modulation technique.

At a very basic level, modulation is the combination of 2 signals which are the signal and the transmission carrier. AM radio is amplitude modulation while FM radio is frequency modulation. Same concept. Qualcomm adapted code division multiplexing access (CDMA), which is a modulation scheme, for use in cellphones and made a lot of money just from that.

The video/audio signal is first compressed with a compression technique, in this case MPEG2 or MPEG4 to obtain a compressed signal. Similar to zipping a file which is a non-lossy compression technique. Both MPEG2 and MPEG4 are lossy compression techniques. MPEG4 compression efficiency is better, the tradeoff is that MPEG4 loses slightly more data.

A part of the bandwidth gain with the MPEG4 transition is also the effienciency of the 8 phase key shifting modulation technique. After the signal is compressed, the signal is modulated using a modulation technique. Once the compressed signal is modulated, it is transmitted and received. The receiver 1st demodulates the data to get the compressed signal, then decompresses the compressed signal to get the resultant high def video and audio, hopefully with not too many glitches from the losses of data resulting from the compression and decompression process.

The big discussion going on now is that none of the D* HD receivers have the ASICs (application specific integrated circuits) to perform 8PSK demodulation and MPEG4 decompression.

Don

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Ron, I assume that if you 'move', then all of the receivers on your account 'move'. Can anyone confirm that?
....jc You are correct, sir. And when I "moved" back, my secondary receiver had both NY and Denver locals for a while and CBS HD E and W.

Does anyone know where I can find a listing of the O & O stations for ABC and NBC? Are they listed on AVS someplace?

I just called D* and based on my address in Aurora I am not able to get the West coast feed of Fox. The CSR said that due to new laws and regulations it's based on your latitude and longitude, etc. What a load of crap!

Try again with web page reference, it worked for 3doghiker above.

I mentioned that... said theres nothing she can do for me.

I called this afternoon to to get the Fox-W feed turned on. The CSR I got said he'd look into it and came back and said I wasn't eligible. I asked to be transferred to the HD group and he said that actually he was in that group. I then asked several times why they couldn't turn it on and I referenced their web site. I also told him that I knew others had been approved. He put me on hold and went to talk to his supervisor. Came back and told me that his computer wouldn't allow him to turn it on, but agreed that I should have it and would fill out a form to get the feed turned on manually. Assured me that this would happen in no later than two days, but most likely today. His name is Jeremy, ID #1126.

I will report back when and if the feed is really turned on. I won't bug them again unless it is not on by Monday evening.

I do get Fox-HD OTA just fine, but I agree that I should get this HD channel regardless just like I get the CBS-W feed. This new regulation is really messing things up for people who really need and deserve this feed. Too bad KMGH (ABC) is not O&O. However, it they were, they would probably have a transmitter on top of the Republic building like the other networks!

With the switch to MPEG-4, have the satellite companies stated whether it will be the newest AVC High Profile type? Standard H.264 was not as good as MS's VC-1 codec, but this upgrade supposedly either evens the quality or in some circles improves upon VC-1 given the same source.

I'm assuming they would real time compress to MPEG-4 the uncompressed raw feed rather than compressing to MPEG-2 and then compressing to MPEG-4, which would create really crappy images.

In this move to higher efficiency codecs at 15-16 Megabits/sec average VBR broadcasters could actually start sending their archival 1920x1080p/24 masters (scripted material) compressed rather than dumbing them down to either 1080i or 720p. At the maximum range of 1920x1080p/30 (video source material) and a moderate bump in the bitrate you could see the best possible ATSC standards.

I'd even go so far to go to 25-30 Megabit/sec transmissions so that we could have 1920x1080p/60 and really good quality audio.

You would need an act of God to actually put a fire under their butts to do this, but it should be done before we're 20-30 years out and still using substandard broadcasting practices.

Dan

Ok, let's see here...
The FCC has a mandate to move this country to the next generation of television, HDTV. So, they create laws, that in essence, defeat that purpose by leaving the local stations in charge. You've got till what 2007, and we know that everyone won't be ready, so we'll push that deadline out when the time comes.... So, we have the debacle here in Denver, where almost all of the stations are broadcasting an HD signal, but a lot of households can't receive it, because the transmissions are low power. And, the law denies people like me from receiving an HD signal via satellite, because satellite companies are providing an SD signal to my area.

Now, if the FCC really wanted the country to move to HDTV, they should've written the law to say:
Until a station is broadcasting a full power HDTV signal to it's audience, said audience has the right to obtain an HDTV signal via satellite from that stations' network, or another affiliate representing that stations' network...
That would've put the onus on the stations. You have a captive audience, but it's up to you to provide the service to them. If you don't they have the option of going elsewhere...
....jc

I just checked and D* "manually" lit up FOX-W for me on channel 89. (See my post above.) My D* programming now shows:

Network: FOX HD_*
Network: CBS HD_*

I guess you just need to persist in telling them how to do their job.

If any of you have trouble getting this done, just PM me and I will give you my phone number so they can verify that I do, in fact, have FOX-W and I live in Fox O&O Denver. Good luck. BTW, FOX in LA does NOT do the silly stretch of their SD programming to 14:9.

One other tip I will pass along. If you turn off your current free HD package online and then turn it back on, you get a new end date 6 months out. (You will see it on your next statment.) Mine is now June.

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
In this move to higher efficiency codecs at 15-16 Megabits/sec average VBR broadcasters could actually start sending their archival 1920x1080p/24 masters (scripted material) compressed rather than dumbing them down to either 1080i or 720p. At the maximum range of 1920x1080p/30 (video source material) and a moderate bump in the bitrate you could see the best possible ATSC standards.
From what I've always heard, 1920x1080x24p would use less bandwidth than 1920x1080x30i. Progressive formats compress better than interlaced.

I thought the main reason for broadcasting 30i rather than 24p is that it is easier to splice in material from other sources (such as commercials).

Does anyone actually broadcast in 24p or do they all add pulldown for 60i? HDTV is capable of being broadcast and displayed at true 24 frames per second, which would make watching 24fps material much nicer.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I just checked and D* "manually" lit up FOX-W for me on channel 89. (See my post above.) My D* programming now shows:

Network: FOX HD_*
Network: CBS HD_*

The ironic thing though is given they have to go through compression at D*, I would expect both network feeds to look substantially worse than what yoiu see on KCNC-DT and KDVR-DT.

Really, I've never understood why people make such a big deal about getting D* to turn on their network feeds... :confused:

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Ok, let's see here...
The FCC has a mandate to move this country to the next generation of television, HDTV.
Actually what you need to remember is the FCC has mandated a change to digital TV, not HDTV.

Stations are free to broadcast 480i, as long as they (eventually) use ATSC to do it.

What's more interesting is the various suggested rulings that have floated through the FCC in recent years that make their mandate more or less circular, such as the one where the "mandatory" switchover would not occur until the marketplace penetration in major markets was more than "X"%, so if the affiliates never put digital stations on the air, they'd never have to, either...

Joe Redifer,

You actually wouldn't display 24 fps at 24 fps. You'd have flicker up the wazoo. The decoder would do the 2:3 pull down in real time to bump it up to ~30 fps. to match the 60 Hz standard in ATSC. If you had a really good scaler you could even apply a pull down cadence that would better match your digital display's refresh rate.

It's easier to compress 24 fps material at 24 fps so you don't have redundancy in the signal, and it takes up less space. Just as it's better to compress video source material at 30 fps in progressive format.

Where I get the 15-16 Megabits/sec average for 1080p/24 material is that this is the range that MPEG-4 AVC High Profile and VC-1 reaches supposed transparancy to a D-5 tape, which is about the best consumers can hope for in broadcast quality for the near term. You would need higher bitrates if you had complex material like higher frame rates, or higher color depths such as 10 bit RGB 4:4:4.

Newbie...question about OTA in Longmont

Ok...I've got Dishnetwork and I can't get local HD channels. I'd love to watch the superbowl next weekend in HD, and in general to get the local channels in HD. What type of antenna do I need (I've got the 811 model from Dishnetwork to do the OTA decoding) and what is even available in Longmont? I'm near 119 and Hover, if that helps. Am I hosed? Can I do this in a week? Indoor would be best; as I live in a rented home, but I'll put up an antenna outside if I need to. If there's someone in Longmont that has had success with OTA, I'd LOVE to hear from them. I can be called at 970 481 4170 if anyone is willing to give a few minutes of their time for advice, or emailed at cobyh2@comcast.net. Thanks in advance for your help.

Coby Hughey

Coby,

Check the thread below. And most likely you can get some OTA HD channels, but only with an outdoor antenna.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587&highlight=denver+data

Originally posted by cobyhughey
Ok...I've got Dishnetwork and I can't get local HD channels. I'd love to watch the superbowl next weekend in HD, and in general to get the local channels in HD. Luckily the Superbowl will come from KDVR, which is one of the two stations broadcasting with reasonable power from Lookout Mountain. You really do have a good shot at getting this with an indoor antenna, such as the Zenith Silver Sensor.

But to get NBC, PBS, and CBS in HD you will definitely need an good outdoor antenna oriented to downtown Denver. There is a lot of discussion of antennae on this thread;I like the Channel Master 4228 which lets me get all the major Denver stations from about 8 miles south of you.

Except of course ABC (KMGH), which cannot be received north of Denver.

Originally posted by cobyhughey
Newbie...question about OTA in Longmont

what is even available in Longmont? I'm near 119 and Hover, if that helps.

Coby Hughey

Welcome Coby!
Your location places you squarely in the 'magic corridor' along the foothills where all the low power Denver stations (except ABC) are receivable with moderate effort (and an outdoor antenna). If you were a couple of miles to the north, past the ridge on 287, you would have difficulty. Being on the south side of the ridge and having a clear shot to the south and good elevation all work in your favor. At least one person in Loveland in the corridor and at high elevation receive them all (except ABC). I can't believe the view from 66 and 287, if only I could run a cable and get the liquor store to let me put up an antenna next to his (I'm dreaming, of course). FOX and WB are all you would probably get from an indoor antenna.

Originally posted by oxothuk
Luckily the Superbowl will come from KDVR, which is one of the two stations broadcasting with reasonable power from Lookout Mountain. You really do have a good shot at getting this with an indoor antenna, such as the Zenith Silver Sensor.

But to get NBC, PBS, and CBS in HD you will definitely need an good outdoor antenna oriented to downtown Denver. There is a lot of discussion of antennae on this thread;I like the Channel Master 4228 which lets me get all the major Denver stations from about 8 miles south of you.

Except of course ABC (KMGH), which cannot be received north of Denver.

So, I'm assuming that these channels are in UHF? Sorry if the questions are stupid; I'm still learning. Is there an inexpensive local source for that antenna? And how sensitive is the antenna to direction? Is a preamp required?

Originally posted by cobyhughey
So, I'm assuming that these channels are in UHF?
Currently, yes. 16, 18, 32, 34, 35 for NBC, PBS, FOX, WB, and CBS respectively.
Is there an inexpensive local source for that antenna?
Not very many...some have luck with Radio Shack antennas, otherwise it is pretty much via online retailers.
And how sensitive is the antenna to direction?
Larger antennas tend to be higher gain (needed to get the weak Denver stations). And higher gain means more directional. So a couple of degrees one way or the other would probably cause significant or complete signal loss. Higher power stations (FOX, WB) can tolerate being off to the side, so look for the 'sweet spot' for the weaker stations, and you'll likely do okay here without a rotor.
Is a preamp required?
Not necessarily, try without one at first, adding a preamp may actually cause signal loss depending on numerous factors.

Glad to help!

EDIT: OPPS! You said Hwy 119, I read 119, and was thinking Hwy 66 in my above post. Sheesh! This cold has more than my nose clogged. Anyway, that puts you near the ridge near hwy 52, so it really depends more on if you can see the horizon to the south, or a hill. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Joe Redifer,

You actually wouldn't display 24 fps at 24 fps. You'd have flicker up the wazoo. The decoder would do the 2:3 pull down in real time to bump it up to ~30 fps. to match the 60 Hz standard in ATSC. If you had a really good scaler you could even apply a pull down cadence that would better match your digital display's refresh rate.

It's easier to compress 24 fps material at 24 fps so you don't have redundancy in the signal, and it takes up less space. Just as it's better to compress video source material at 30 fps in progressive format.

Where I get the 15-16 Megabits/sec average for 1080p/24 material is that this is the range that MPEG-4 AVC High Profile and VC-1 reaches supposed transparancy to a D-5 tape, which is about the best consumers can hope for in broadcast quality for the near term. You would need higher bitrates if you had complex material like higher frame rates, or higher color depths such as 10 bit RGB 4:4:4.
Actually ATSC can display true 24 frames per second. And it wouldn't flicker like crazy. Check it out:

ATSC DTV Standard:
http://www1.leitch.com/resources/tutorials/atscDTVstandard.pdf

HDTV Fundamentals:
http://www.s3graphics.com/TN107A.pdf

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
With the switch to MPEG-4, have the satellite companies stated whether it will be the newest AVC High Profile type? Standard H.264 was not as good as MS's VC-1 codec, but this upgrade supposedly either evens the quality or in some circles improves upon VC-1 given the same source.

I'm assuming they would real time compress to MPEG-4 the uncompressed raw feed rather than compressing to MPEG-2 and then compressing to MPEG-4, which would create really crappy images.

In this move to higher efficiency codecs at 15-16 Megabits/sec average VBR broadcasters could actually start sending their archival 1920x1080p/24 masters (scripted material) compressed rather than dumbing them down to either 1080i or 720p. At the maximum range of 1920x1080p/30 (video source material) and a moderate bump in the bitrate you could see the best possible ATSC standards.

I'd even go so far to go to 25-30 Megabit/sec transmissions so that we could have 1920x1080p/60 and really good quality audio.

You would need an act of God to actually put a fire under their butts to do this, but it should be done before we're 20-30 years out and still using substandard broadcasting practices.

Dan

These are excellent points/questions. H.264 or VC-1? Does anyone know?

Edit: question answered for at least one sat company... H.264 per MPEG4 hardware thread

http://www.tandbergtv.com/public/site/Primary/productdocs68/EN5990_v1.pdf

MPEG2 embedded in MPEG4? Yikes. I would assume it depends on the nature of the feeds from the local stations. Will each station have their own uplink or fiber to an uplink center? I don't know.

As far as 1080p/24 or 30, I don't think you will see that for a very long time in any kind of broadcast or sat xmission, even if bluray or HD DVD supports it

Don

Hi Coby,

As oxothuk mentioned, I would try a Zenith Silver Sensor. It is small and for indoors. I know that Sears has them for around $40, although you can get it from Amazon.com for $20. So, if you went that route, you'd have to make sure that it shipped to you on time.

I live about 15 miles North of you in SW Loveland. I have the Silver Sensor indoors (in my attic) and can get EVERYTHING except for ABC (KMGH). I do have intermettent problems with CBS-Denver (KCNC), but can get CBS-Cheyenne (KGWN) well enough. I do not have a pre-amp (actually, I do...I tried one and it made things worse) hooked up.

I think that the key for me (and what you should try too if you do some sort of indoor antenna) is to get the antenna up as high as you can and near a window or someplace that has the least amoung of obstruction to the South.

Reply to: cobyhughly

The SB is less than a week away. If I were you, I'd shop the local stores (i.e., Circuit City, Best Buy, Walmart) for a Silver Sensor (sold under Zenith, Phillips/Magnavox, Gemini) and give it a try for Fox DTV. Keep it as high in the room or attic as is possible and point it at Fox:
http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.asp

If it doesn't get Fox, return it. If it does, enjoy the SB and work out your long term OTA DTV reception problems when you aren't under the gun time-wise.

Technical info on Silver Sensor:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html

Promo on Silver Sensor:
http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=49&id=131

Consider a pre-amp from the same store that you get your Silver Sensor only if it is also returnable. Try it w/o the pre-amp first.

Coby:

I'm in northeast Longmont near 17th and Alpine. I set up an HD receiver a couple weeks ago. I'm using a fairly good sized antenna in the attic above the garage (I don't know any details, I installed it about 6 years ago when we moved into this house). All I can pick up from here is WB and FOX. I did try a pre-amp but, like others have said, it made things worse.

To everyone else on this forum, I found you a couple weeks ago and have enjoyed reading through the ton of messages posted here. I've learned a lot.

Greetings!
I recently installed a DB8 on the roof of my 2 story dwelling in South West Fort Collins, and have not had any luck in getting signal from 16 or 35 on Republic Plaza. I was just wondering if I am unskilled at alignment or if there is anybody in SW Ft. Collins able to pull in 16 and 35 OTA? I have spent several hours "up there" on the cell phone, talking to my oldest son watching the singal strength meter on my HD10-250 while trying different bearings, and I can't seem to get a lock on 16 or 35. Any help would be really appreciated. This forum is great!

Mike, you must be having a bit better luck than me. I have a silver sensor too and I live in Loveland, about half a mile south of the movie theater/Wal-mart area on Sapphire street. I can pick up FOX 22-1, KWGN ch2 and KBDI. I haven't been able to pick up any of the other Denver stations at all. I do have CBS on D* at least, so I guess I'm only realisitically missing out on NBC. I have the silver sensor in my attic.

I pick up FOX 22-1 fine every day except Monday. Of course this sucks because I can't watch '24' in HD. What's up with that, any ideas? The signal is fine the other six days, so I should be good for the Super Bowl.



Originally posted by mikeaco
Hi Coby,
I live about 15 miles North of you in SW Loveland. I have the Silver Sensor indoors (in my attic) and can get EVERYTHING except for ABC (KMGH). I do have intermettent problems with CBS-Denver (KCNC), but can get CBS-Cheyenne (KGWN) well enough. I do not have a pre-amp (actually, I do...I tried one and it made things worse) hooked up.

What's up with the extreme pixelation on NBC lately?

Trying to watch Las Vegas in HD right now, and the intro was horrible.
Looked like an 8 bit video game everytime there is motion.
No DD5.1 either :(

In the past Las Vegas has been one of the sharpest and crispest HD shows.

Has something changed?
Or was the signal I was receiving last month on Comcast better than the signal I am now getting OTA?

edit: Doh, I mean NBC, not FOX

KUSA has never had 5.1. I didn't catch the intro but what I just saw looks just like it always has. Looks good on my end.

Fox has looked good too.

KDVR finally switched to 4:3 about 2 hours ago. Goodbye stretch-o-vision!

Originally posted by jsauser11
Greetings!
I recently installed a DB8 on the roof of my 2 story dwelling in South West Fort Collins, and have not had any luck in getting signal from 16 or 35 on Republic Plaza. I was just wondering if I am unskilled at alignment or if there is anybody in SW Ft. Collins able to pull in 16 and 35 OTA? I have spent several hours "up there" on the cell phone, talking to my oldest son watching the singal strength meter on my HD10-250 while trying different bearings, and I can't seem to get a lock on 16 or 35. Any help would be really appreciated. This forum is great!

I'm near College and Harmony, and I've had no luck at all. There were a few days that I got KUSA, but it would break up at night. I gave up and pointed further west to pick up KDVR and KBDI more strongly. KWGN is pretty much always there.

Once I'd given up on that, I took the screen off my CM 4228 bowtie. Now I get the the above mentioned channels and KGWN CBS from Cheyenne. If only KKTU ABC would start broadcasting HD.

Originally posted by BlazingIce
Mike, you must be having a bit better luck than me. I have a silver sensor too and I live in Loveland, about half a mile south of the movie theater/Wal-mart area on Sapphire street. I can pick up FOX 22-1, KWGN ch2 and KBDI. I haven't been able to pick up any of the other Denver stations at all. I do have CBS on D* at least, so I guess I'm only realisitically missing out on NBC. I have the silver sensor in my attic.

I pick up FOX 22-1 fine every day except Monday. Of course this sucks because I can't watch '24' in HD. What's up with that, any ideas? The signal is fine the other six days, so I should be good for the Super Bowl.

I think that I'm pretty lucky location-wise for how far North I am. My house is at the end of a cul-de-sac, the front faces NE, the back SW. There are no trees or obstructions to the South of me, only farmland really. So, I just put the antenna up in the attic at the Southern most point and point due South. Though I get Denver FOX, CBS, NBC, The WB and a couple of PBS's and a couple of Spanish stations, as well as Cheyenne CBS, I occaisionally have multipath. As a result, even though the signal quality meter is 70-90, I do get some breakups some days and none on others. Actually, tonight while watching 24 there were about 5 such instances, even though I get FOX at around 90%. I have never been able to pick up the Fort Collins FOX repeater. I guess I'm just not pointing in the right direction. So, I'm not sure what your problems could be there.

As a side note: D* just turned on CBS-W HD for me after having called their elegibilty department about 2 or 3 weeks ago. I had gotten a waiver from Cheyenne CBS in a couple of days and then faxed it to D*. I don't know if D* also had to get a waiver from Denver CBS or not. I'm also waiting on FOX, even though I don't need it. I read a few posts back that a couple of people were persistant and they turned the cannels on while they were on the phone. I'm not sure why they are not consistant with the O&O stations. But, at the time I talked to them, I didn't press. We'll see how long it takes going through the process the "snail mail" way.

Originally posted by jpco
If only KKTU ABC would start broadcasting HD.

Are they broadcasting digitally at all? I didn't think they were since last, what, October or so...

Originally posted by jpco
If only KKTU ABC would start broadcasting HD.

Is their digital signal back on the air? For a while I was getting a bunch of 11-x subchannels with no sound, but they disappeared a few months ago and I haven't seen them again since.

Originally posted by Symbios
KDVR finally switched to 4:3 about 2 hours ago. Goodbye stretch-o-vision!

Finally! Amazing how much better the local programming looks now. Getting rid of KDVR's awful stretch and getting 5.1 back on KMGH almost makes up for KUSA sacrificing their picture quality with the Weather Plus subchannel.

Originally posted by bikenski
Finally! Amazing how much better the local programming looks now. Getting rid of KDVR's awful stretch and getting 5.1 back on KMGH almost makes up for KUSA sacrificing their picture quality with the Weather Plus subchannel.

That must be what changed.
"Las Vegas" used to be super sharp and no pixelation during scenes with lots of motion.

Now KUSA's new sub-weather-channel is probably robbing the main channel's bandwidth and quality :(

Originally posted by mikeaco
........Actually, tonight while watching 24 there were about 5 such instances, even though I get FOX at around 90%. I have never been able to pick up the Fort Collins FOX repeater. I guess I'm just not pointing in the right direction. So, I'm not sure what your problems could be there.

......
I had the same issues with FOX last night during 24. I think the problem was at their end, as I too have about 95% on the signal meter. Their timing during the show was not good either, I switched back to the SD several times so as not to miss the plot. Several times I got a 'no signal' on the receiver before it came back.

FWIW, I just noticed on the Programming page thread that several other folks in CA saw the tiling too. Sounds like it is a national feed issue.

Yeah, KDVR was having some problems last night, it all started right after they switched to 4:3. The breakups were so bad on my end; I had to watch 24 in analog.

Likewise. I thought it was my setup until I checked the signal meter which was showing the usual strength.
This is the only hobby I've had where I constantly think I'm doing something wrong...

Hobby??????

This is more involved than Brain surgery!

I was just flipping channels and I'm not getting any HD from KDVR -- it's supposed to be American Idol. Is anybody getting a picture? Signal strength is good, no picture, no sound.

Do a channel scan, that’s what I had to do to get it back. They keep switching between 31-1 and 31-3 for some reason, it’s really messing my receiver up.

No dice on the channel scan. Wierd...hd-tivo unit in case anybody else wants to report in.

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
No dice on the channel scan. Wierd...hd-tivo unit in case anybody else wants to report in.

...no KDVR for me either. HD TiVo as well. I did a channel rescan and that did not help. I'm now trying a channel rescan after clearing all channel data first. I'll see if that does it.

Also, I recently lost freqs 15 and 46. I think they are Spanish, so I don't really care. But, I wonder what's up???

Update: No go on the rescan after clear...

No KDVR-HD here either. (HD-TIVO)

I'm getting FOX on 32-2 on my Dish 921. 'Ya know, 'House' is pretty good!

KDVR-HD was fine for me (USDTV hd tuner box from wally world).

On transitions it would occasionally blur slightly, then correct itself.
But other than that it was fine and in DD5.1

I imagine KDVR is having issues with their PSIP.

Originally posted by Geof
I imagine KDVR is having issues with their PSIP.

Does anyone have an email addy for KDVR? They need to add more PSIP fluid :) before Sunday.

Originally posted by Geof
I imagine KDVR is having issues with their PSIP.

Yes, I believe that is true. I had to enable the off air guides on my standalone DTC-100 in order to get 32-3, 32-1 whatever it is now. With the off air guides disabled, the standalone DTC-100 would not even recognize a digital channel 32 at all. All with consistently high signal strength. I had to do about six channel scans to figure that out. I had no problems with my F38310 integrated DTC-100. Weird.

Don

Yeah, I lost KDVR (31-1) last night too on my Dish PVR 921, after noticing that House didn't get recorded. After rescanning, I ended up with 31-1 and 32-1. 32-1 always seems to work, but 31-1 works only if I go to 32-1 first. Weird.

Leave it to KDVR to screw around with this stuff right before the SuperBowl. Aaaargh.

Originally posted by rwinston
Leave it to KDVR to screw around with this stuff right before the SuperBowl. Aaaargh.

Because of the timing (right around 2/1,) they must have been scrambling to make PSIP changes for the FCC deadline referenced in this thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?&threadid=495173)

It's a shame they waited until the last minute, rather than giving a little more time to work out the glitches before the big game.

Well, whatever they did, they confused my poor little HD TiVo into thinking that KDVR is on 31-1. 32-1, 32-2 and 32-3. I'm glad this didn't happen on Monday. If would have had to watch 24 in SD...

I should email them and tell them not to touch anything from now until after 2/6!!!

mikeaco,

So your hdtivo is now picking up KDVR-HD? Did you have to do a rescan or something...?

Has anyone seen KUSA's new WX plus channel, on 9-2. Kinda cool.

Pete

Has anyone seen KUSA's new WX plus channel, on 9-2. Kinda cool.


Careful, Pete...



(whoa, first up...)

This KDVR thing is really starting to worry me as SB Sunday nears. Things got so bad during the second half of 24 Monday evening that I had to switch to OTA analog (better than my E* feed, but neither is adequate for football) feed. Later I noted the virtual channel info had changed to 32-1, so I rescanned KDVR in from 32 as 31-1.

Tuesday evening it was reading 32-2. PQ and DD5.1 were great on American Idol. But, when I started frequently checking the signal strength, I noticed that 3 or 4 times a minute the signal would suddenly drop from its normal high 70's to a low to mid 60s reading. I didn't see any affect on my viewed picture or sound, but low 60s is the limit with my Dish 811 and those drops put me on the border. Same thing tonight. This has not happened in the recent past.

I've stopped messing with the virtual channel ID as my scanned channel is real 32 and the 811 is simply posting whatever it sees in the PSIP data. I sure hope this doesn't portend problems this coming Sunday.

Originally posted by PeteG
Has anyone seen KUSA's new WX plus channel, on 9-2. Kinda cool.

Pete
You can't possibly be serious...

I'm sure KDVR will have everything sorted out by Sunday. I didn't have any problems tonight.

FWIW, it might help to specify the receiver you're using, if having trouble with KDVR.

I'm running a Samsung T160, and its been fine all week.

Just my 2¢

Resume party.

Originally posted by PeteG
Has anyone seen KUSA's new WX plus channel, on 9-2. Kinda cool.

Pete

How cool? Is that a weather joke?
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd
mikeaco,

So your hdtivo is now picking up KDVR-HD? Did you have to do a rescan or something...?

Yes, I checked it Wednesday morning and afternoon. It was on 31-1, 32-1, 32-2 and 32-3. It might have been there (somewhere) all along. When I noticed it was out on Tuesday night, I didn' check any of the other channels listed above that other people here saw it bounce around to...

I don't agree. Just various cities in Colorado showing 5 day forecasts. And for this, we get reduced quality on their normal channel. When I want digital TV, I want the highest clarity HD broadcast. And now KUSA has reduced their normal broadcast to a very average picture, all to be able to multicast their special weather channel. I am not impressed and I really hope that KCNC (CBS) does not follow their pathetic leadership on this. KMGH already multicasts their SD signal, but it does not affect their normal channel nearly as much as KUSA.

My hd-tivo picked up KDVR as 31-1 tonight (normal). My fingers will be crossed Sunday.

Has anyone in their quest for KMGH found major interference from KXPH-LP? I'm about a mile east of Lone Tree and have a Channelmaster 4228 pointed directly at Republic Plaza. I had just moved from the Broadway & C470 area where I used to get a sporadic lock on MGH/17, and always had a little bit of signal (10-30) after tweaking my antenna. Out here there is nothing, not even a 1%. I hooked the UHF up to the tuner in the TV and sure enough I got a lock on MTS Stereo, but almost no picture. The audio program is identical to PAX on ch 59. Is this a common problem? i searched the thread and couldn't find a mention of it. Also, any ideas on how to filter it? I've played with the antenna extensively and can't seem to kill it. The 4228 is supposed to have a pretty narrow beam path and its 60 degrees from beam center. Granted, their 17.4kW is more than MGH, but its over 75 miles away. Any insight would be apreciated.


http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KPXH-LP

Thanks in advance...

Hughes DirecTivoHD HR10-250 (60hr)
Comcast 6412 HD-PVR
Voom DSR-550 (for now)
Channelmaster 4228 (no amp currently)

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
I don't agree. Just various cities in Colorado showing 5 day forecasts. And for this, we get reduced quality on their normal channel. When I want digital TV, I want the highest clarity HD broadcast. And now KUSA has reduced their normal broadcast to a very average picture, all to be able to multicast their special weather channel. I am not impressed and I really hope that KCNC (CBS) does not follow their pathetic leadership on this. KMGH already multicasts their SD signal, but it does not affect their normal channel nearly as much as KUSA.


Did not know this.

I sent a note to Don Perez at KUSA yestrerday asking about the multicasting and told him that the HD picture quality was flat and not as good as it had been. I asked how much bandwidth 9-2 takes.

He does appreciate feedback and responded that the Weather Plus channel takes about 10% of the bandwidth and said they still need to experiment with their encoder settings.

He also told me that he has noticed artifacts when transitioning from upconverted SD to HD content. Finally, their HD server failed last night which he says was quite troublesome. That probably explains why the State of the Union didn't come up in HD initially and Leno was just SD.

I hope they focus on the 9-1 picture quality which is the main issue here.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi He does appreciate feedback and responded that the Weather Plus channel takes about 10% of the bandwidth and said they still need to experiment with their encoder settings. 10% is all it should take, but when I did a recording the other night TSReader showed the Weather Plus Channel at about 3.5 Mbps and the main channel at 12.8 Mbps.

oxothuk: I passed along that information to Don Perez. Maybe that will help him figure out what is happening. Is TSReader a PC program?

Here are Don's comments after I passed along the bandwidth numbers to him:

"At any instant the rate could change based on video content. It should not allow the main channel to less the 15 Mobs at anytime. In fact the minimum should be a bit more than 15..The other channel should not be more than 3. I will check further, but that should be the window. This type of computer analysis has been common for several years in the satellite, cable and broadcast industry. It is new to us and this implementation....thanks"


Let's hope their learning curve accelerates and they find ways to address the problem.

Originally posted by oxothuk
10% is all it should take, but when I did a recording the other night TSReader showed the Weather Plus Channel at about 3.5 Mbps and the main channel at 12.8 Mbps.

Thank you HD Hall of Famer Bob Wright for the 12.8 Mbps HD-Lite.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
oxothuk: I passed along that information to Don Perez. Maybe that will help him figure out what is happening. Is TSReader a PC program? Yes, I have TSReaderLite, which is the demo version of a PC program which manipulates DTV transport streams. I have a SASEM tuner (with a USB interface) which I occasionally use to capture HD content.

I need to check, but the 12.8 Mbps may have been for the video stream only; if so the total size of the 9-1 program stream (with audio) would then be a tad higher.

Would you check again please for the total data stream? Don Perez says that 9-1 should be at least 15 Mbps or higher and 9-2 should be 3 Mbps or lower. Thanks.

So at 524 pages are we due for pt 4?

I think the reason stated for needing to create new parts was some limit on the number of pages or something like that. If I recall, the current AVS software no longer has that limitation.

Besides, that lets newbies read all 524 pages to catch up!

Originally posted by colofan
So at 524 pages are we due for pt 4? Well this is the 4th installment if you really want to know....
The first (and original) thread didn't have a part # at the end of the title.
Then came Part 1.
Then came Part 2.
Now we're on Part 3.
I say let's keep going for the record!!!!!!

(We have nothing better to accomplish while we wait <forever> for full power on all our stations.)

Originally posted by DennisMileHi

Besides, that lets newbies read all 524 pages to catch up! One might argue that is cruel and inhuman punishment.;)

OTOH, that is one way for the newbies to understand what us "old timers" have gone thru lo these many years....

You guys are brutal :)

Behind the scenes: KMGH engineers under go training for the installation of their new HD transmitter. They decided that it wasn't worth the effort...
http://www.panelcrafters.net/antenna_install.jpg
The 3rd man(whose boot is visible in the lower portion of the picture) is reading the instructions....

Anyone see the news about "TV Stations See Threat to New Digital Channels"?

From the article on Yahoo News:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Some new digital channels offered by U.S. television broadcasters may be in peril if regulators fail to require cable companies like Comcast Corp. to carry the extra stations, a top broadcaster said on Thursday.

.
.
.

Broadcasters are moving to digital airwaves, which are more efficient and allow them to offer several streams of shows, known as multicasting. Paxson Communications Corp. and other broadcasters have asked the Federal Communications Commission (news - web sites) to require cable companies to carry the channels.

The FCC (news - web sites)'s five commissioners will likely vote next week on a recommendation to reject the broadcasters' request at the agency's monthly meeting. Items are rarely placed on the FCC's public agenda unless they are expected to be approved.

.
.
.

Public television stations this week reached a tentative accord to have up to four digital channels each carried on cable systems. Talks with commercial stations have never advanced.

.
.
.

If the FCC rejects the broadcasters' request, Lombardo said they would go to court to challenge it. Stations have been lobbying FCC officials in recent weeks trying to persuade them to require cable operators to carry the additional channels.

Lombardo said Walt Disney Co.'s ABC television network has already pulled back on its plans for its ABC News Now channel and the same could happen to a weather station offered by General Electric Co.'s NBC Universal unit.

"I find it ironic that two fledgling opportunities that were being developed with digital spectrum are really in serious trouble now," he said.

.
.
.

Maybe NBC itself will remove 9-2 :)

Greg

It sure seems like KUSA's HD server likes to die or spazz out a lot. Is it running Windows '95 or something?

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
It sure seems like KUSA's HD server likes to die or spazz out a lot. Is it running Windows '95 or something?
I think the question should've been 'Windows Anything or something'. :D
....jc

Did anyone else experience severe audio dropouts on CSI tonight? The digital output from my HD TiVo was cutting in and out regularly but the analog outputs were fine. I'm glad I decided to tune in early since the recording is useless.

The audio didn't "drop out" per se, but I did keep hearing clicking and digital stuttering constantly on the Dolby Digital track as well as moments (maybe a fraction of a second) where there would be no audio at all, especially for the first half of the show. I'm glad it wasn't just me. I really enjoyed the part where the screen froze and turned green. That was simply awesome.

I agree, every week it gets worse and worse. It looks like they’ve gone back to 480P to me, it’s just crazy. I wonder if it’s Fox’s problem or KDVR’s?

I tivo'ed CSI and experienced the same problems as Joe R. The audio dropouts/pauses were so bad that I turned off the 5.1 and went with just the TV speakers (masked the problem). The green screen made me wonder if I was going to see the whole thing (still haven't -- no spoilers please).

9-2 STINKS. Robbing picture quality to put up a worthless weather channel...BRILLIANT!

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Would you check again please for the total data stream? Don Perez says that 9-1 should be at least 15 Mbps or higher and 9-2 should be 3 Mbps or lower. Thanks. I captured a 4 minute segment from ER last night (during the program, no commercials). Adding up the audio and video streams, this is what I saw:
9-1 13.96 Mbps
9-2 3.52 Mbps
null packets 0.78 Mbps

So as I see it, 9-2 is getting more like 20% of the available bandwidth rather than 10%.

KUSA lost their HD server on Wednesday evening (ie, the ability to record the network HD stream for rebroadcast an hour later). So, they have to go with SD broadcasts until it is fixed.

I will pass along oxothuk's new information (I think it is 25%) to Don Perez and ask him if anything is likely to change.

KCNC must be having trouble with their Dolby 5.1 decoder. I had very brief audio dropouts every 3 seconds for the entire program. Yeah, the green screen was great too. Had it recorded on Tivo so we watched it anyway. Without a Trace is not 5.1 and the sound was fine.

Anybody complain to KCNC? We know these stations don't monitor their HD broadcasts very much so they may not even know that it occurred!

I like the fact that most of the major stations (2,4, 9, and 31) now have a real program guide. I still don't see one on 6, or on the fringe stations (15, 25, 53) - wasn't the deadline a few days ago?

Seems like it would be a piece of cake for channel 25 - just a single entry for "Crappy Infomercial".

Yes, it's great. Plus my STB takes only 2 seconds to pop the info up. Before, for some reason it would take up to 2 minutes to download the info, and there was usually nothing there! Now if only I had the original remote to this thing, I could move around in the guide…

Did anyone else feel that Point Pleasant on FOX PQ looked like crap last night from KDVR via OTA? Nowhere near good HD quality. Seems like with each passing week the PQ gets worse. Maybe its OK via cable.

Hmm, maybe it’s just me, but I think were going around in circles in this thread…

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
KCNC must be having trouble with their Dolby 5.1 decoder. I had very brief audio dropouts every 3 seconds for the entire program. Yeah, the green screen was great too. Had it recorded on Tivo so we watched it anyway. Without a Trace is not 5.1 and the sound was fine.

Anybody complain to KCNC? We know these stations don't monitor their HD broadcasts very much so they may not even know that it occurred! I did not complain.
That is about the right frequency of occurrence. My dropouts lasted longer though. I guess there are differences as to how fast DD receivers take to recover after an event that causes the audio to drop out. Curiously there weren't any issues during the commercials though.

KCNC - if you're reading this I really wouldn't mind audio problems during the commercials so if you can fix the audio for your programming and it screws up on commercials that is something I could live with. ;)

Originally posted by oxothuk
I captured a 4 minute segment from ER last night (during the program, no commercials). Adding up the audio and video streams, this is what I saw:
9-1 13.96 Mbps
9-2 3.52 Mbps
null packets 0.78 Mbps

So as I see it, 9-2 is getting more like 20% of the available bandwidth rather than 10%.

There's something wrong here because you're missing a 1.06 MB/s of the data stream. Their stream is roughly 19.3 MB/s total. Your numbers add up to 18.26 MB/s.

Originally posted by AkaStp
How so? I asked the question and didn't get an answer yet. I would like to hear from others arounnd here if they feel the same about that particular program on Fox via OTA last night. I just find it hard to believe that I would be the only one that noticed the poor PQ. Or perhaps no-one else here watched Point Pleasant last night on Fox via OTA.

Sorry, I didn't watch it.

Originally posted by AkaStp
How so? I asked the question and didn't get an answer yet. I would like to hear from others around here if they feel the same about that particular program on Fox via OTA last night. I just find it hard to believe that I would be the only one that noticed the poor PQ. Or perhaps no-one else here watched Point Pleasant last night on Fox via OTA.

I watched a little "Point Pleasant" last night (I stopped their while surfing for a few minutes because it may have been the only HD on last night at that point) and I didn't notice that the picture was worse than what I usually get from FOX. I am not saying that FOX HD looks bad, I think it looks bad on my HD setup (1080I TV, HD tuner outputting 720p and the set scales/dithers to 1080i). I have several friends with 720p displays and 720p tuners and their FOX programming looks better than what I experience. In contrast, CBS and NBC programming usually looks awesome on my TV and it never blows me away at the 720p houses.

I sent a note to David Layne, engineer at KCNC, about the DD 5.1 audio dropouts. He responded that he was NOT aware of the problem (as I suspected) and asked whether I had seen this problem before.

I have not seen any problems previously with CBS 5.1 audio. In fact, their 5.1 is very good normally.

The only show I watch regularly on Fox is 24 and House (and football). Usually looks fine, but the picture quality is not as good as other HD channels OTA. However, their 5.1 sound is quite good.

Originally posted by markdl
There's something wrong here because you're missing a 1.06 MB/s of the data stream. Their stream is roughly 19.3 MB/s total. Your numbers add up to 18.26 MB/s. Yes, I know that - I was just counting what was in the audio and video streams for the two program channels. There are lots of other PIDs in the stream (such as the program guide, closed captions, etc.) which take small bits of the data stream; I haven't tried to add them all up to see if they entirely account for the difference. However, that doesn't change the conclusion that 9-2 is consuming MORE than 3 Mbps and is getting 20% of the total bits for audio and video.

If someone else has measurements from a different tool that dispute this conclusion, I'm certainly willing to listen.

Curiously there weren't any issues during the commercials though.

KCNC - if you're reading this I really wouldn't mind audio problems during the commercials so if you can fix the audio for your programming and it screws up on commercials that is something I could live with.

That is exactly what I observed and thought in response. I told the wife the audio error must be on the network feed and the commercials are compiled locally. Anyway, I couldn't come up with a quick fix to the audio and still watch the HD feed so I turned the volume down (wife was yelling that she was not going to listen to that crap) very low. Well, running on only 3 hours of sleep I promptly nodded off. I guess I missed the "green screen".

Regarding HD PQ on 31, "24" is the only HD show I regularly watch other than NFL football. I've watched "House" a couple of times and dropped in on "The OC" occasionally. Also have caught "American Idol" a couple of times this year and it looks really good in HD. Fox HD for filmed shows looks about the same as CBS w/ CSI or NBC w/ Vegas (or whatever its official title is). Actually looks a little better when I take the time to change my Dish 811 input to 720p to match the signal to my 720p DLP monitor.

Oh, and it looks like Fox 31's fix of their aspect ratio also fixed the abominable PQ for Ron and Libby on the 9 PM news. The PQ on the anchor desk shot was so distorted before (Libby's hair looked like strands of plastic) that my wife wouldn't watch it from the OTA feed. Had to use the E* SD feed or my OTA analog output. I'm sure glad they got their transmission problems straightened out before SB Sunday. Looks like I should have a very enjoyable viewing experience for the SB.

Anyone notice that KCNC's news has out of sync audio on 4.1? Not that I would watch their news anyway with that horrible echo sound they've had since they redesigned their studio.

KDVR-DT also fixed other issues when they were down a few days ago.

You may have read my earlier post mentioning that their signal was unrecordable on an LG LST-3410a HD DVR, with the hard drive making noises as if the recording were continually stopping and restarting and that the resulting recording was either completely unwatchable due to freeze frames and audio stuttering or was only listed as being about ten seconds in length.

Well ever since they came back on the air, their signal has been as recordable as anyone else's, just in time for the "big game." :D

I had called them at the beginning of last week and told engineering about my problem, and that KTVU-DT, the Oakland Fox affiliate, was recordable but that other Fox affiliates in the country, including the one in St. Louis, showed the same problem they did.

I don't know whether that pointer helped them or their being down earlier this week allowed them to fix other issues, but whatever it was, it worked. ;)

How so? I asked the question and didn't get an answer yet. I would like to hear from others arounnd here if they feel the same about that particular program on Fox via OTA last night. I just find it hard to believe that I would be the only one that noticed the poor PQ. Or perhaps no-one else here watched Point Pleasant last night on Fox via OTA.

I responded, that's why I said that. I said it was so bad that it looked like Fox had gone back to 480P.

It's now approximately 24 hours until my first HD Super Bowl. KDVR's looking good (fingers crossed). :)

We're roughly 1 year away from the dimwits at KMGH denying us a HD Super Bowl. :(

Originally posted by AwesomeFloyd

We're roughly 1 year away from the dimwits at KMGH denying us a HD Super Bowl. :(
<rant mode on>
They are NOT denying you the Super Bowl next year. You are welcome to PAY Comcast or probably by that time D* for the privilege of watching their "supposed to be free" OTA signal. If you watch a signal from a tower on Lookout, KMGH must pay for it, if you watch from Comcast or D* YOU must pay for it. Do the quick math and I think you will see it is better for them if YOU pay for it. "Dimwits"???? Hardly. Sounds like pretty much common sense business practices to me. It would be OK if they weren't using the public airwaves....Fortunately for them, no one at the FCC will stand up to the LCG Bull$hit!
<rant mode off>
<Resume Smiling>
:D

Originally posted by JMartinko
<rant mode on>
They are NOT denying you the Super Bowl next year. You are welcome to PAY Comcast or probably by that time D* for the privilege of watching their "supposed to be free" OTA signal. If you watch a signal from a tower on Lookout, KMGH must pay for it, if you watch from Comcast or D* YOU must pay for it. Do the quick math and I think you will see it is better for them if YOU pay for it. "Dimwits"???? Hardly. Sounds like pretty much common sense business practices to me. It would be OK if they weren't using the public airwaves....Fortunately for them, no one at the FCC will stand up to the LCG Bull$hit!
<rant mode off>
<Resume Smiling>
:D

Except us Up North can't even pay for it if we wanted to...

Comcast sucks. KMGH sucks. This whole thing sucks...
:mad:

OK. I just got done skiing, had a great day on the slopes with the family, so I will resume smiling!!
:)

Originally posted by mknoebel
Except us Up North can't even pay for it if we wanted to...

Comcast sucks. KMGH sucks. This whole thing sucks...
:mad:

OK. I just got done skiing, had a great day on the slopes with the family, so I will resume smiling!!
:)
If rumors and some D* announcements are true, you can likely subscribe to the Denver locals in HD from D* within the year. It's not much help, but it's a better chance than you have in dealing directly with KMGH. Of course their lawyers also claim they will be on the air by mid-summer.....oops, that was 2004.

Well KMGH will HAVE to pay for it eventually. Using this "logical business" that JMartinko wrote about, then KMGH will NEVER broadcast their signal more than 70 feet from their station. It is fun to belittle KMGH. I support those who do. KMGH deserves it.

You're right..."dimwits" was a bad choice. But it was such a nice day I was gonna try not to call anybody an MF'er. By now I should know that when it comes to KMGH MF'er is the only proper adjective.

I'm not convinced D* will be an option by Super Bowl XL.

Originally posted by JMartinko
They are NOT denying you the Super Bowl next year. You are welcome to PAY Comcast or probably by that time D* for the privilege of watching their "supposed to be free" OTA signal....
As has been stated, paying is not even an option for some of us. Tomorrow, I'll prolly be watching the SB on my 14" TV in my office, because I don't have access to an HD signal, and SD looks like crap on my widescreen.

If you watch a signal from a tower on Lookout, KMGH must pay for it, if you watch from Comcast or D* YOU must pay for it. Do the quick math and I think you will see it is better for them if YOU pay for it.
As with any business dependent upon advertisers, less viewers means less revenue. It would be naive to think that their viewer numbers are not down due to this mess. Especially, when advertisers are realizing that there are now some households that prefer to watch an HD program over an SD program, and that they may watch something that they usually don't watch, because it's in HD.

"Dimwits"???? Hardly. Sounds like pretty much common sense business practices to me....
Only for 'businesses' like the government. Again, as viewership drops, so does Ad revenue. The real problem is that the FCC is protecting local stations instead of giving them incentives to broadcast full power digital signals.

On another note, I got my 'application' for a signal test from D*(Fox HD is not possible here). However, there is no mention in the document of HD signals. So, I think that they sent me their old form for analog reception.
:mad: Oh well, I'll call them tomorrow, and see what the deal is.
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
..................
As with any business dependent upon advertisers, less viewers means less revenue. It would be naive to think that their viewer numbers are not down due to this mess. Especially, when advertisers are realizing that there are now some households that prefer to watch an HD program over an SD program, and that they may watch something that they usually don't watch, because it's in HD.


Only for 'businesses' like the government. Again, as viewership drops, so does Ad revenue. The real problem is that the FCC is protecting local stations instead of giving them incentives to broadcast full power digital signals.


That is the 'true beauty' of the LCG group. Since NONE of them is broadcasting full power, they won't lose viewers because people are watching the 'competition'. There are presently (and likely in the near future) just not enough OTA HD viewers to make a difference, and in the outlying areas none of the DTV channels can be seen without heroic measures as we all know. I think it will be a LONG time before KMGH or any of the other local stations really get worried about ratings due to lack of OTA HD. Let's face it, as we see from "the Leader In HD" good ol' KUSA, they haven't even bothered to buy a back up recorder to time shift the network feeds to our time zone. When the unit went out this week, all we heard was that we had to wait until it was fixed. Does anyone remember the last time their SD recorder went down and they couldn't broadcast because there wasn't a back up available? That tells you how much even the 'leader' cares about HD viewers.

I better turn my rant mode off again before you folks get me started. Ask some of the other 'old timers', I am one of the biggest curmudgeons in the thread the last few years. I have long passed the point where I wish a plague on 'all' their houses (the LCG stations, Jeffco, and especially (S)CARE).
<Rant mode OFF again>
<Smile mode back on again>
I know the HD situation sucks, but it is still a pleasure to live in Colorado, especially for us natives......you just need to nurture alternative sources for those HD signals.

It all reeks of cheapness with none being cheaper than KMGH. IIRC they weren't always the ABC affiliate -- that's what they ended up with after being outbid. Their cheapness explains everything from their network affiliation to the HD situation to the general unattractiveness of their on-air "talent". Maybe after football season I'll wander down to their trailer park, throw a couple quarters into a toilet and watch the station manager fish'em out.

Hello, all...I'm a long-time lurker with my first question:

Can I combine two antenna signals into one coax cable?

I just installed a ChannelMaster 3018 on my roof with a 50' run of quadshield RG6, hooked to my Zenith 520 going into my Hitatchi UWX57. I live in Arvada, and found that I get very good signal strength from most stations, but I have to turn my antenna manually more than 90 degrees to change from CBS to FOX.

Can I just put up a smaller antenna near my big one and join the two lines, so I don't have to run another cable through my attic, down my walls, and into my basement? The antenna is on my roof, not easily accesible from the ground. Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance, and for the years of info and opinion.

Thats not always a good idea, Scott because they can tend to interfere with each other.

Another way to do it would be simply having a smaller indoor antenna for Fox (since it's higher power that usually will suffice) and then use an A/B coax switch to send either feed to the Tv. Radio Shack even has a remore controlled A/B switch so you wouldnt have to switch it manually.

Even if the smaller antenna wont do (be nice if it would... less installation hassles), you can still look towards the A/B concept.

OT: Dan, I just picked up a used JVC W-VHS deck. I know you're a guru with those. I need some tapes. Do you have a good source or know the drill hole trick to SVHS that works? Email me, ernie.santella@comcast.net

Hiya, Ernie..

The drill out trick of S-VHS tapes has nothing to do with W-VHS.. that trick is for D-VHS usage.

For W-VHS you dont have any choice in tapes for recording HD aside from Digital-S D9 tapes like these:

http://www.taperesources-store.com/store/products.asp?dept=37

I havent bought any for a long time but the prices seem to be the same (and I never found any place cheaper when I was buying).

The DS-64 is about 1 Hour 55 minutes of HD recording and the DS-104 is about 3 Hours 5 minutes, IIRC.

Originally posted by DP1
Thats not always a good idea, Scott because they can tend to interfere with each other.
Yea, Scott, Just Say No. Your chances of success are very small.

Instead of an A/B switch, there are passive devices that will also work. You can get a 'band pass filter' that will allow you to combine multiple antennas. Join-Tenna, made by Channel Master, is an inexpensive way to combine 2 antennas. However, since it also attenuates adjacent frequencies, you'll need to make sure that a frequency that you are trying to receive won't be trashed at the same time. And looking at the current frequencies, it doesn't look good. Trying to 'pass' 32, may cause problems for 34(WB2) & 35(CBS). You'll have to try it, and see if it works. Otherwise, an A/B switch looks to be your best option.
....jc

Originally posted by Fireman_scott
Hello, all...I'm a long-time lurker with my first question:

Can I combine two antenna signals into one coax cable?

I just installed a ChannelMaster 3018 on my roof with a 50' run of quadshield RG6, hooked to my Zenith 520 going into my Hitatchi UWX57. I live in Arvada, and found that I get very good signal strength from most stations, but I have to turn my antenna manually more than 90 degrees to change from CBS to FOX.

Can I just put up a smaller antenna near my big one and join the two lines, so I don't have to run another cable through my attic, down my walls, and into my basement? The antenna is on my roof, not easily accesible from the ground. Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance, and for the years of info and opinion.

From one lurker to another.... I live in SE Fort Collins. I just installed a Radio Shack antenna pointing south which picks up KWGN, KDVR, and KBDI. I pointed my Terk rabbitears north to pick up KGWN (cbs) from Cheyenne and get the Fox repeater on 21.1 as a bonus. Both are mounted in my attic with a standard Radio Shack splitter, combiner connecting the two signals. I have a Radioshack amplifier installed downline to help with the 100' run of RG-6 I needed to hook the whole thing up. I get most freqs at about 68% with the Cheyenne station coming in at 85%. The only problem I've had was last Monday night when I invited two friends over to watch 24 in HD for the first time, and it went flooey. How embarrassing! I was sure something with my setup was wrong so I spent a couple of hours checking it out before reading the posts about others having the same problems. I then erased and rescanned all my OTA channels on my HD10-250 and haven't had any problems since. Hope this helps!

Ron

Ah crap! KDVR seems to be having audio problems!

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Yea, Scott, Just Say No. Your chances of success are very small.

Instead of an A/B switch, there are passive devices that will also work. You can get a 'band pass filter' that will allow you to combine multiple antennas. Join-Tenna, made by Channel Master, is an inexpensive way to combine 2 antennas. However, since it also attenuates adjacent frequencies, you'll need to make sure that a frequency that you are trying to receive won't be trashed at the same time. And looking at the current frequencies, it doesn't look good. Trying to 'pass' 32, may cause problems for 34(WB2) & 35(CBS). You'll have to try it, and see if it works. Otherwise, an A/B switch looks to be your best option.
....jc

Since you are dealing with a single antenna for a relatively strong signal, you can have the Join-Tenna cut for 31 instead of 32, the attenuation on 34 and 35 won't be nearly as bad, and they aren't 'sharp' enough of a filter to make any significant difference on 32. I use a Join-Tenna for getting 30 from Cheyenne. I had it cut for 29 so that it wouldn't attenuate 32 and works fine. (YMMV) and there's no guarantees. So why did they cluster all of our UHF stations together, anyway?

It all reeks of cheapness with none being cheaper than KMGH. IIRC they weren't always the ABC affiliate
I am just as frustrated as anyone when it comes to HD in the Denver area and I agree IT IS all about money. However, I am not sure "cheapness" is the proper term as much as investment vs return and profitability. For the broadcasters nationally and locally, with the HD audience being such a small segment of the overall viewer market. HD will continue to get very little attention until such time as the HD viewer market size reaches the point of being a profitable entity. The broadcasters walk a fine line of building for that future delivery profitability date & reality, and timing.

The expansion of cable and SBS HD locals will increase the potential local viewing market, but the overall qualifier will be when HDTV prices come down to the point that the AVERAGE Joe can afford buying one or two sets. In today's world most people cannot clearly see (or afford) spending thousands of dollars to watch a television set. When HDTV prices reach affordability for the larger market then that is the time when you will see these companies putting most of their programming and investment dollars into this format. (Supply & demand) Until then the rest of us (our small piece of the overall viewing market) will be forced to grin it and bear it. One only need look at when television went from black & white to color to see history repeat itself in HD.

Originally posted by Mtnmike
I am just as frustrated as anyone when it comes to HD in the Denver area and I agree IT IS all about money. However, I am not sure "cheapness" is the proper term as much as investment vs return and profitability. For the broadcasters nationally and locally, with the HD audience being such a small segment of the overall viewer market.
Anybody that has yet to figure out that everything in this country, is about the money, must be living in LaLa land.

I do have a question for everyone: Is Denver the only market in the top 50, in which the majority of it's stations are not broadcasting a digital signal at full power?

If the answer is YES, it helps to explain why this thread is sooo long. If not, who are they and what's their excuse?

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Anybody that has yet to figure out that everything in this country, is about the money, must be living in LaLa land.

I do have a question for everyone: Is Denver the only market in the top 50, in which the majority of it's stations are not broadcasting a digital signal at full power?

If the answer is YES, it helps to explain why this thread is sooo long. If not, who are they and what's their excuse?

They simply have a convenient excuse and have out-smarted the FCC with it. They took a gamble and won. That is what has everyone up in arms, the FCC let us down. The FCC could have enforced the 1995 telecommunications act and said that local government can not prevent a station from adding DTV to its existing towers, but the stations came up with an unworkable LCG that acted as an umbrella (in the name of being community-minded). The FCC should have said that DTV is not contingent on LCG, but didn't. There will be injunctions, law suits, other stalls to infinity because there are infinite complaints that can be lodged from infinte sources. IMO (not a common one here) the only hope we have is to have congress enforce the analog shut-off by law.

I think Denver is the only top 20 market (Outside of NY and the Trade-Center) Seems I've read that there's a smaller market in Oregon that is havin' a NIMBY problem like ours. Not sure if any of the sCAREy people have homes there too.

I'd venture to say that Denver is the only Top "30" market not doing Full Power DTV. I think even NY (DMA 1), which lost most of their equipment on 9/11, is back up on full power.

Thanks much for the info, all...I knew one of you'd have the answer! ;-)

I'll try the indoor antenna-A/B switch combo, but since my big screen is in the basement...wish me luck!

I'm gonna have to pace myself...with a year left to rage against KMGH I don't want to burn out too quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they were secretly funding SCARE; CHEAPer to stay in court than go digital.

Meanwhile, I've turned on the pregame and things are looking good IMO. John Fogerty's act looked good and the 5.1 is coming through.

I called D* to ask about the bogus signal test form that they sent me(no mention of HD, same as old one), and I was discussing this mess with the CSR, and he told me that they found out this morning(SUNDAY!!!!), that they could accept 1 day waivers for people to watch the SB on Fox. He said to just fax it to him and he could turn on Fox E/W till midnight.

Well, of course, had I known this, I would have tried to get one last week! The C/S station's switchboard is now closed.

I would like to take the time to personally thank the FCC, sCARE, KDVR, KXRM and all of the others that have helped make this Super Bowl such a memorable event in my life.

And, I truly hope that I can return the favor, in such a manner, that you all fully understand my gratitude.
...jc

Well it's halftime now and the picture and sound are, for the most part, pretty damn good! I don't like the "above the field" overhead cams, as they don't look as good as the regular cameras. Everything seems to "shimmer" with those cams. The audio is great. Unlike CBS's Dolby Digital, I can actually hear the surrounds, and there is even discrete subwoofer (something else missing from CBS's football 5.1). Some of the commercials are even in HD, and that kicks ass. Some of the movie ads sound incredible. You just don't expect that level of sound quality coming over the air when watching TV.

SB HD PQ was excellent and the DD5.1 was great for the game and some commercials. This far surpassed CBS's efforts last year on video and audio. However, the "ground cams" and "plylon cams" can go. What a waste. No added value and horrible SD PQ.

BTW, has Philly never played from behind before? That fourth quarter by Philly was the one of the most inept comeback efforts I've ever seen by a playoff caliber team. Makes our coach and quarterback look like Pro-Bowl material.

Originally posted by Fireman_scott
Hello, all...I'm a long-time lurker with my first question:

Can I combine two antenna signals into one coax cable?

I just installed a ChannelMaster 3018 on my roof with a 50' run of quadshield RG6, hooked to my Zenith 520 going into my Hitatchi UWX57. I live in Arvada, and found that I get very good signal strength from most stations, but I have to turn my antenna manually more than 90 degrees to change from CBS to FOX.

Can I just put up a smaller antenna near my big one and join the two lines, so I don't have to run another cable through my attic, down my walls, and into my basement? The antenna is on my roof, not easily accesible from the ground. Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance, and for the years of info and opinion.

What you want to do is quite feasible, but not w/o some problems. I to am in Arvada and from my location, 16, 18, & 35 are at 115 degrees and 32, 34, & 38 are at 211 degrees. With a Yagi type antenna I can get 32 and 38, w/ some multi-path problem, along with the Republic Tower DTV channels, while pointed at about 125 degrees. My problem channel in a single antenna arrangement is 34. With a more directional bay type antenna, even 32 and 38 become problematic w/ a single antenna.

When I decided to go to 2 antennas, my goal was broader than yours as I also wanted to get high quality analog OTA broadcasts. Since you don't, that eliminates a lot of concerns for signal conflicts. The ATSC tuners for DTV broadcasts are actually a lot more forgiving than the analog NTSC tuners. BTW, my antennas are in the attic, so I'm dealing w/ a much weaker signal than you should be experiencing.

Posts 159 and 166 in this thread summarize some of what I did with two antennas.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587&perpage=20&pagenumber=8

This thread recounts my story of combining two antennas, both w/ pre-amps:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=426320

Since I last posted to either of those threads, I've made some changes, primarily to improve my analog channel reception, but it also boosted my DTV signal strength a few points on all channels. But, I still don't get 17, do you? My recent changes were changing back to my PR-9018 yagi style antenna to give myself more room in the attic for my UHF/VHF combo antenna pointed at Lookout Mountain. Since I still couldn't get 17, the PR-8800 wasn't adding any value. I also swapped out the RS pre-amps for CM Titan pre-amps and split my VHF signal and left it unamplified, though the signal is sometimes less than optimal.

As you'll see on the second thread link, I played around with CM JoinTennas, but they can be a real pain and sometimes do more harm than good. Also, they are not very durable. I was trying to trap out 31 and 32 from my Republic Plaza feed w/o affecting 35 (I used a channel 31 JoinTenna). But, you want to filter in 32 and 34 from a LOM feed (you didn't mention 38, so I'm guessing you don't care and no single JoinTenna would be able to catch that whole spectrum anyway). To filter in 32 and 34 from an antenna pointed at LOM, order a UHF JoinTenna tuned to channel 33. However, depending on the azimuths to the 2 sources from your location, your antennas, and the direction you point the antennas, you should be able to get all six DTV channels with a combined signal from the 2 antennas. You just need to try it, and vary the direction of your antenna pointed toward RP (keep the second one pointed at LOM, it won't see anything of the RP signals).

The signal from 31-1 was the clear winner in both picture quality and sound quality. In fact, the DD5.1 from the west coast signal had virtually no surround signals at my house while 31-1 sent very active noise to the rear speakers.

So much for DirectTV.

Wow, a SB in HD.
I can hardly wait 2 years to see the next one OTA. Maybe they can work out a deal w/KDVR to locally broadcast next years BS!

Originally posted by MRinDenver
The signal from 31-1 was the clear winner in both picture quality and sound quality...

I just install an OTA set-top box in the last couple weeks, and the game yesterday was the first thing I've seriously watched. I thought the sound during the game was great, but was disappointed with both the pregame and halftime musical entertainment. It sounded like the center channel was missing. I switched my receiver to stereo and it actually sounded better that way. Was it just me that noticed this?

I agree that the picture on Fox in Denver was clearer and sharper than the D* LA feed. So, I didn't compare any further than that on sound. I thought the 5.1 sound was great throughout and didn't notice any difference during the half time.

I just wish KUSA engineering (Don Perez) could have seen the difference in picture quality between the D* somewhat compressed feed and the OTA 31-1 feed. Maybe then they would understand what we are saying about their picture quality degradation because of their multicasting a weather channel.

Originally posted by Dave6833
I just install an OTA set-top box in the last couple weeks, and the game yesterday was the first thing I've seriously watched. I thought the sound during the game was great, but was disappointed with both the pregame and halftime musical entertainment. It sounded like the center channel was missing. I switched my receiver to stereo and it actually sounded better that way. Was it just me that noticed this?

I noticed this also. Cranking it up a bit helped, since the audio levels seemed quite a bit lower during halftime.

Overall, I thought this was the best Super Bowl yet, HD-wise.

Mark

I am getting a HD Tivo next week so I am now looking for an OTA to go with it to get the HD locals. I have been doing a lot of research on this and talked to a few people but was hoping that those of you in Westminster or the surrounding areas might be able to provide some further assistance.

Some background info:

I live around 128th & Huron in a single story home. No major obstructions between my home and downtown.

I don't have a chimney or any existing cable runs from the attic for an easy antenna install.

Here are my questions / information I am looking for:

1) Does anyone know of any local / recommended installers that can do a roof install if needed?

2) Is a roof install necessary where I live or should I be able to get away with an attic install?

3) Do I really need a rotor? I know there is a pretty good spread in some of the towers but I have received conflicting information on this.

4) If I get a Large Directional antenna I am looking at the Channel Master 4228. Can this be mounted in the attic or wall and still get good reception (I am asking this in the event I can not find someone to do a roof install and would need to do this myself).

5) I have seen a few homes near me that have what looks like the Winegard SquareShooter. Does anyone have one or know if that would work? I was seriously considering picking one up and doing a low level roof mount / install (I have an area near the back of my home, which happens to face downtown, where I can mount it right where the gutter would be, so it would be below the peak of the roof but around the same height it would be in an attic install without any walls obstructing the view.

Essentially I am looking for advice on what hardware / antenna type I really need and where I can mount the antenna. Anywhere but the roof would be the easiest DIY. The attic might not be too bad - except for the fact there is no electicity up there, so no light unless I have a flashligh and there is no floor finishing, so just a bunch of beams and insulation so moving around will be a challenge as well as figuring out how to run the coax to the living room - I am thinking the easiest way to do that would be to find a place to drill a hole so it routes outside on the wall, then run it to my cable box outside which is already wired to the TV (I used DTV not cable).

Thanks!

Originally posted by farjo08
I am getting a HD Tivo next week so I am now looking for an OTA to go with it to get the HD locals. I have been doing a lot of research on this and talked to a few people but was hoping that those of you in Westminster or the surrounding areas might be able to provide some further assistance.

Some background info:

I live around 128th & Huron in a single story home. No major obstructions between my home and downtown.

I don't have a chimney or any existing cable runs from the attic for an easy antenna install.

Here are my questions / information I am looking for:

1) Does anyone know of any local / recommended installers that can do a roof install if needed?

2) Is a roof install necessary where I live or should I be able to get away with an attic install?

3) Do I really need a rotor? I know there is a pretty good spread in some of the towers but I have received conflicting information on this.

4) If I get a Large Directional antenna I am looking at the Channel Master 4228. Can this be mounted in the attic or wall and still get good reception (I am asking this in the event I can not find someone to do a roof install and would need to do this myself).

5) I have seen a few homes near me that have what looks like the Winegard SquareShooter. Does anyone have one or know if that would work? I was seriously considering picking one up and doing a low level roof mount / install (I have an area near the back of my home, which happens to face downtown, where I can mount it right where the gutter would be, so it would be below the peak of the roof but around the same height it would be in an attic install without any walls obstructing the view.

Essentially I am looking for advice on what hardware / antenna type I really need and where I can mount the antenna. Anywhere but the roof would be the easiest DIY. The attic might not be too bad - except for the fact there is no electicity up there, so no light unless I have a flashligh and there is no floor finishing, so just a bunch of beams and insulation so moving around will be a challenge as well as figuring out how to run the coax to the living room - I am thinking the easiest way to do that would be to find a place to drill a hole so it routes outside on the wall, then run it to my cable box outside which is already wired to the TV (I used DTV not cable).

Thanks! Outdoors is always better, but you are close enough to downtown that an attic install might work. It wouldn't hurt to try. One problem you might have is getting a CM4228 through the opening into your attic - it's about a yard square. Since it is flat, the CM4228 can be mounted against a wall. Only question is, do you have a wall which points directly toward downtown?

With the CM4228 pointed downtown, you may or may not be able to pick up the two stations on Lookout Mountain (Fox and WB). If not, you will either need a rotator or a second antenna. As a second antenna, a simple indoor model like the Zenith Silver Sensor is probably all you would need to get these Fox and WB. You can then use an A/B switch to alternate between the two.

For KBDI (if you care - they aren't doing any HD yet) you will almost certainly need a rotator.

And of course you have no hope of getting KMGH (ABC) unless you pay the cable monster; not an attractive thought if you are already subscribing to D*.

Originally posted by oxothuk
Outdoors is always better, but you are close enough to downtown that an attic install might work. It wouldn't hurt to try. One problem you might have is getting a CM4228 through the opening into your attic - it's about a yard square. Since it is flat, the CM4228 can be mounted against a wall. Only question is, do you have a wall which points directly toward downtown?

With the CM4228 pointed downtown, you may or may not be able to pick up the two stations on Lookout Mountain (Fox and WB). If not, you will either need a rotator or a second antenna. As a second antenna, a simple indoor model like the Zenith Silver Sensor is probably all you would need to get these Fox and WB. You can then use an A/B switch to alternate between the two.

For KBDI (if you care - they aren't doing any HD yet) you will almost certainly need a rotator.

And of course you have no hope of getting KMGH (ABC) unless you pay the cable monster; not an attractive thought if you are already subscribing to D*.

Thanks for the feedback. I know outdoors would be better but I am not sure I want to tackle a roof install myself so I am looking for something a little easier since I haven't been able to find anyone willing to do a roof install.

The back of my house faces downtown so I can find some place in the attic to rest an antenna without having to worry about mounting it and get pretty good direction - that part should be easy. The only issue I have with the attic is that there is no electrical work up there (so no light without a flashlight) and it is unfinsihed (no floorboards - just beams and insulation) so it will be a bit difficult to move around and see up there. I have been up there before and it ain't pretty.

The other issue with the attic is figuring out how / where to run a coax to get it back to the living room. I am thinking my best option is to drill a hole near the edge to run a cable down the outside wall of the house, then route it into the basement with the other cables and from there up the floor to the jack.

I need to check the size of the opening to the attic - I know it's not that big but not sure how it compares to the 4228. Also there are beams right near the opening into the attic so I can't just slide it through - another pain with the attic.

I was thinking of maybe heading to best buy or circuit city and picking up a SS just to test it out and see how that goes. First I need the receiver so I can test the antennas as right now I don't have a HD tuner so can't do my of anything.

Originally posted by farjo08
The other issue with the attic is figuring out how / where to run a coax to get it back to the living room. I am thinking my best option is to drill a hole near the edge to run a cable down the outside wall of the house, then route it into the basement with the other cables and from there up the floor to the jack.
Farjo,
If you can avoid the outside walls, that's a plus. All of the 'nasties' are in those walls, and it will make make snaking a cable more difficult. If you've got an interior wall near the TV, that would be great. You can usually find the top of that wall under the insulation at the bottom of the floor joists. And interior walls are usually just hollow 'stud bays', meaning easy 'fishing'. Also, the nails for each stud are usually visible, so it's easier to determine your location.

Good Luck,
....jc

Originally posted by farjo08
I live around 128th & Huron in a single story home. No major obstructions between my home and downtown.


I'm a bit South of you near 112th & Federal, and Legacy Ridge completely blocks my view of downtown. You'll probably have an easier time from your location since you have a better view to the South.

Before I sold my soul to the cable pig, with an AntennasDirect DB8 aimed downtown I was able to get KUSA, KCNC, KDVR, KWGN, and KBDI without rotating. Since I'm in a ground floor condo I was limited to only having the antenna about 7 feet off the ground, and it did need to be outside to pick up any of the Republic stations. The stucco siding on my unit blocks UHF signals quite well.

Depending what material your roof & siding are made from, how high your attic is, etc, you may or may not have to go outside onto the roof. With the low power signals we're dealing with literally just a few feet can make all the difference. There's no way to know for sure without trial and error.

I have the aforementioned DB8 (which comes apart, unlike the 4228) and a ChannelMaster 4221 4-bay if you'd like to try them out before mail ordering something that may or may not work for you. They're loaned out for another experiment at the moment, but I should have them back shortly.

Hey Bikenski

I think you should start charging a check out fee for these guys :-)

Thanks again
Joe

Thanks everyone for the tips. I won't have the HR10-250 until sometime next week so hopefully I can start messing with an antenna the following weekend.

I will probably go to radio shack first and pick up the $25 antenna and test that in the attic - I will try to find the cable lead this weekend (there is a cable run from outside that runs through the attic and down the wall to a wall jack in the living room - so hopefully I can find that under all the insulation and be able to run a new clean line down - then it would just be a matter of hooking it up to the antenna. If all goes well I will look into a rotor if I can't get all the channels but am able to by manually moving the antennas.

This may sound a lot dumb, but am I correct in assuming outdoor antenna's should be grounded and if so what is the best way to do this for a roof mounted antenna? Thanks

Originally posted by Mtnmike
This may sound a lot dumb, but am I correct in assuming outdoor antenna's should be grounded and if so what is the best way to do this for a roof mounted antenna? Thanks Yes, it should be grounded. Check over the the 'HDTV Equipment' area, a guy named greywolf has numerous posts on the subject.

Hello again, guys...

I just wanted to drop a quick note saying "thank you" on behalf of myself, and all the other noobs out there. ;-)

I hooked up an old, nasty looking set-top antenna I had laying around, and discovered that I got 31-1 perfectly, even in my basement! This means that the A/B switch route will allow me to move my roof-top antenna back towards downtown, and pick up all the OTA signals.

Thanks again, and phooey on sCARE!

Does an attic mounted antenna need to be grounded?

Originally posted by 5.10-Crux
Does an attic mounted antenna need to be grounded?
The consensus from other threads is a resounding No.

....jc

Yep, you definitely don't. There is no wind in your attic to charge the elements with static electricity (which attracts lightning), so it is not necessary.

Just a data point for those in this area...

Had a SuperBowl party and wanted to have a backup for the HD broadcast if my cable went out. I live near Parker and Orchard in SE Denver. Rabbit ears on top of the TV brought in Fox (31.1) but the signal was a bit flaky. Bought a Terk TV5 and used it (without the amplification) to get a solid signal from Fox that was at least as good as the cable feed. It also picked up WB (2.1) and three PBS-Broomfield subchannels (12.1, 12.2, 12.3 - digital, but not HD).

Analog stations were pretty bad, but that could be the TV's tuner as much as the antenna or the signals. In any case, I don't care about those.

Since I get 5 unencrypted local HD stations with Comcast analog cable I see no need for a better antenna, but it's nice to know that once the Lookout Mountain antenna is up for real receiving HD OTA won't be any problem.

I also had a Super Bowl party. We watch it in HD with a set of rabbit ears jammed in my roof's shingles point south. Picture and sound came in great. I’m located in Fort Collins so wasn’t sure is I could pick up a single from the Denver station. FOX 31-1 came in at 74%. A big thanks for all of your inputs this site has some very good info.

Thanks

Originally posted by Symbios
Yep, you definitely don't. There is no wind in your attic to charge the elements with static electricity (which attracts lightning), so it is not necessary.
I'm glad you have a hermetically sealed attic, but most attics do (or should) have enough ventilation that winds can indeed pass through.

I personally say it makes sense to ground every antenna and is essential if you run the antenna cable outside to get from the attic to your TV (according to the National Electrical Code, all antenna cables should be grounded at the point they enter the house.)

kucharsk,

I aggree. But if the cable doesn't exit the house, there's no need to ground it.

KRMA-DT is going back to their weekday afternoon HD schedule they used to have: 3:00pm Great Museums
3:30pm Chefs A'Field Culinary
4:00pm Smart Gardening
4:30pm Tracks Ahead
5:00pm Desert Speaks
5:30pm Smart Travels with Rudy MaxaI wonder why simulcast is not a concern anymore. Wish they would show more of the national PBS HD feed.

Edit: Begins Monday Feb 14th, with Great Museums and Chef's A'Field beginning on Sunday 13th (every Sunday)

Originally posted by RonAuger
KRMA-DT is going back to their weekday afternoon HD schedule they used to have: 3:00pm Great Museums
3:30pm Chefs A'Field Culinary
4:00pm Smart Gardening
4:30pm Tracks Ahead
5:00pm Desert Speaks
5:30pm Smart Travels with Rudy MaxaI wonder why simulcast is not a concern anymore. Wish they would show more of the national PBS HD feed.

Edit: Begins Monday Feb 14th, with Great Museums and Chef's A'Field beginning on Sunday 13th (every Sunday)
This is great news, at least for a couple months until I've seen (and recorded) all of my favorites.

The FCC rescinded the 75% simulcast rule last year, just a couple of weeks after KRMA had changed their schedule to comply with it.

Originally posted by fal709
I also had a Super Bowl party. We watch it in HD with a set of rabbit ears jammed in my roof's shingles point south. Picture and sound came in great. I’m located in Fort Collins so wasn’t sure is I could pick up a single from the Denver station. FOX 31-1 came in at 74%. A big thanks for all of your inputs this site has some very good info.

Thanks

Do you still have those Rabbit ears on your roof? :) Do you know if anyone in Ft. Collins can pick up any OTA HD stations with an indoor Silver Sensor antenna? I live in a first floor condo near Harmony Road.

Any update on Mt. Morrison?

It's been almost 2 years since the approval.

Originally posted by jjdenver
Since I get 5 unencrypted local HD stations with Comcast analog cable I see no need for a better antenna, but it's nice to know that once the Lookout Mountain antenna is up for real receiving HD OTA won't be any problem.

Just curious, I have heard a alot recently about lookout mountain (I am new to HD so forgive for asking what may be an obvious question) but was wondering the following:

1) I read that stations received approval to put towers there - so does that mean all local stations will be setting them up? I Believe Fox and WB? are both located there now.

2) Are any of the towers (Downtown or Lookout Mountain) running at full power? I? keep hearing, specifically ABC, are running low power which also affects the ability to get the channels. Also are there are dates from the stations and/or deadlines for them to be at full power?

I am hoping to install my antenna this weekend (won't have the receiver until next week but want to get the main running of the cable and mounting done before then) so I will know then if I need a rotor, better antenna, etc. but I am assuming that once all towers are full power they should be much easier to receive and possibily eliminate the need for a rotor and/or multiple antennas.

Originally posted by fal709
I also had a Super Bowl party. We watch it in HD with a set of rabbit ears jammed in my roof's shingles point south.

That's pretty funny. I was at a friend's party downtown on Sunday and saw a guy out in the courtyard with a Silver Sensor on the end of about 100' of cable, moving it around, setting it on bushes, and yelling upstairs to his friend asking if it was coming in.

He gave up after about 15 minutes, so I don't think he was successful. Guess the tall buildings downtown must block the Lookout signal, or create too much multipath. Thankfully my friend subscribes to Comcast, so it wasn't an issue for us!

Originally posted by kucharsk
I'm glad you have a hermetically sealed attic, but most attics do (or should) have enough ventilation that winds can indeed pass through.

The breeze that comes through those vents would never charge the antenna enough to do any damage to your equipment. Any voltage that the antenna may collect in the attic will be bled off at the receiver (unless it has a two-prong plug) or your surge protector.

I was talking about the kind of wind that carries dirt with it. If you’ve got that kind of wind coming through your vents; you’ve got bigger problems!

I do however agree with you about grounding the coax. This is a must if the cable for some reason exits and re-enters the building.

Originally posted by farjo08
Just curious, I have heard a alot recently about lookout mountain (I am new to HD so forgive for asking what may be an obvious question) but was wondering the following:

1) I read that stations received approval to put towers there - so does that mean all local stations will be setting them up? I Believe Fox and WB? are both located there now.

2) Are any of the towers (Downtown or Lookout Mountain) running at full power? I? keep hearing, specifically ABC, are running low power which also affects the ability to get the channels. Also are there are dates from the stations and/or deadlines for them to be at full power?

I am hoping to install my antenna this weekend (won't have the receiver until next week but want to get the main running of the cable and mounting done before then) so I will know then if I need a rotor, better antenna, etc. but I am assuming that once all towers are full power they should be much easier to receive and possibily eliminate the need for a rotor and/or multiple antennas.
None of the stations are currently at full power.
Fox and WB are at about half power on Lookout Mountain. Even with only half power they can be received pretty easily across a wide area east of the mountains. Folks up in the foothills have problems, but this would probably still be true even if the stations were at full power.

CBS, NBC, and PBS(KRMA) broadcast at low power from one of the tallest buildings in Denver (Republic Plaza). With a good antenna and careful setup they can be received up to 40 miles away.

ABC broadcasts at low power from a mere 5-story building just south of downtown. Even with the best antenna setup they can only be received for about 20 miles and almost entirely to the south. The one exception I've heard of is TotallyPreWired, but he is way up in the mountains where I think he's "looking down" at KMGH.

ABC, NBC, CBS, and UPN will be moving to the new tower on Lookout Mountain when it is built. PBS(KRMA) has a separate plan for Mount Morrison, which is a few miles south of Lookout.

There are several other DTV stations in the area, but those are the ones that have HD programming.

Full power is probably an ambiguous term at this point. All the stations have CPs (construction permits) for 1000kW. But the stations will probably experiment with ERP (Effective Radiated Power) on the new tower to at least duplicate their analog coverage area, then call that full power. After all, more power cost more.

All the stations now broadcasting DTV have STAs (Special Temporary Authorizations) for certain ERP.
If you consider 1000kW full power, then: WB = 45%, Fox = 22.5%, PBS|NBC|CBS = 1%, and ABC = 0.2%

Originally posted by RonAuger
After all, more power cost more. Yeah, I think KMGH could raise their power, but to do so they would have to plug the transmitter into a different outlet that isn't shared with the lunchroom microwave.

And all this time, I thought KMGH used mice or squirrels on a roof top teensy-tiny treadmill generator!