Originally posted by John W. Morgart
Do you still have those Rabbit ears on your roof? :) Do you know if anyone in Ft. Collins can pick up any OTA HD stations with an indoor Silver Sensor antenna? I live in a first floor condo near Harmony Road.

Yes the rabbit ears are still up. I plan on buying a Channel Master 4228 soon. Everyone that I know in Fort Collins is using an outdoor antenna.

DF

More audio issues for me tonight with CSI. Sometimes I hate digital.

Hummm? CSI NY sound was just fine for me.

Anybody else with an HD TiVo have audio problems on CSI last night? As before it dropped out about every 3 seconds on the toslink outputs but (I think) it's okay on the analog outputs.

Geof: I just checked my recording of CSI and it does have the audio drops every three seconds. I will send David Layne another email. I don't think I told him that it was on a Tivo last time.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Geof: I just checked my recording of CSI and it does have the audio drops every three seconds. I will send David Layne another email. I don't think I told him that it was on a Tivo last time. Thanks Dennis.

My HD TiVo and I don't enjoy a good relationship and last night was another example where I almost ripped the bloody thing out of the system. I tried to tune in Law and Order (the only program I even consider watching on KUSA) and as usual it cannot find the signal. KUSA is only watchable on Tuner 1 and every time, bar none, it tries to tune it in using tuner 2 so I have to play a game with this machine and perform an OTA signal strength measurement after which it will use tuner 1. So, I finally get KUSA tuned in only to find it immediately switched to KCNC to record CSI (I guess it didn't realize that the second tuner was available for that purpose). On top of all that KUSA must still be having server troubles because L&O was in SD last night. If I didn't want to record the odd HD program that TiVo would have been trashed long ago....

Originally posted by Geof
If I didn't want to record the odd HD program that TiVo would have been trashed long ago....

Sorry to hear about your Tivo woes. Not to make you feel worse, but I have had absolutely no problems with it. Works great. A while back, I had a problem with KMGH where it would only lock on Tuner 2 and had to be careful on recording to make sure it picked the tuner that locks. For whatever reason (I did nothing.), that problem has gone away and both tuners now get KMGH fine, albeit at the minimum signal strength possible.

David Layne replied back to me:

"Thanks Dennis - we'll aggressively go after this again."

Thanks Dennis. I know most folks here love their TiVo’s and maybe I should play the games with D*’s CSR and get a replacement sent to me. Mine has two issues (I won't go into my rant on slow menu and guide speed). As mentioned KUSA only comes in on one tuner and I get sound dropouts on channels that have been tuned in overnight until I momentarily switch channels and then tune back. For some reason this problem is really evident on TNT. All that said I really question whether a replacement TiVo will fix either of those problems, but especially the KUSA issue. I suspect the reason only one tuner works is because of my signal, ie, my Hughes E86 won’t even begin to lock onto CH16. And from what I've heard a replacement unit may even be scratched to hell.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Geof: I just checked my recording of CSI and it does have the audio drops every three seconds. I will send David Layne another email. I don't think I told him that it was on a Tivo last time.


I flipped over to CSI:NY for a bit last night and I was having the same audio 'blip' every few seconds. It did come through as DD5.1 tho.

Lost and Alias came in amazingly well last night.
Looks like KMGH? (ABC) figured out the bizarre pixelation issue in the middle/left of the screen. Both were also in DD5.1

Originally posted by Geof
If I didn't want to record the odd HD program that TiVo would have been trashed long ago....

I'll provide a good home for your HD Tivo if it ever gets to the point where you're getting the sledgehammer out (at least until D* goes MPEG4 and it becomes a nice paperweight!) ;)

Originally posted by Geof
Anybody else with an HD TiVo have audio problems on CSI last night? As before it dropped out about every 3 seconds on the toslink outputs but (I think) it's okay on the analog outputs.

On my Comcast 6412 I recorded the CSI audio dropouts. Recording is a bust. I switched to OTA with my SIRT-351 and the audio was OK (digital audio that is). But I could sometimes hear a quick hiccup in the audio, just not the complete dropout as on the 6412. I believe that the Samsung receiver just recovers so quickly from the hiccups that it is barely noticible while the TIVO and the 6412 take a while to resynchronize the audio. Just a guess. Hopefully the engineers will look harder this time and fix it.

Continued problems with KCNC digital audio tonight. No sound issues watching CSI on D* CH 81. I guess it's time to start recording from D* and not KCNC.

Sigh, the DTV situation is Denver is so f'ing pathetic in so many ways.

At a request by David Layne at KCNC, I monitored their two CSI shows last night.

The first repeat show at 7 was 5.1 and had no sound problems (I only watched the last 15 minutes). The next CSI new show at 8 immediately had sound drop outs just like before every three seconds.

I called his engineering people at a private number he gave me and they did something which immediately resolved the problem. This would have been fixed about 5 minutes into the program. They told me it had something to do with the "Meta Data Stream" whatever that is. While watching the show, I noticed that the audio drops came back on very briefly at the half hour point. I would guess they were doing another quick test.

Anyway, I think they have found the problem and know how to avoid it. Also points out that at least KCNC listens to us, wants feedback and works to fix problems. I even think KMGH engineering cares about sending out a good product even though they are restricted by upper management to do so on their toy transmitter.

Great news Dennis. Thanks for working with KCNC. I was never really concerned that they would get it fixed. They've proved time after time they want to get it right (as most stations here have done).

That said it's still amazes me how many problems DTV can have. It should be as easy as turning on the TV and tuning to the desired channel. Instead we have to f-around with antennae, hope some device setting hasn't changed, hope the HD server is working, hope they've "flipped the switch", and then pray that atmospheric conditions don't do us in.

On top of that even when zoning changes are passed one tower build will be stuck in neutral for almost a year, if not longer, pending the outcome of a lawsuit while the other one is no where to be found because of delays in getting construction permits and whatever else has gone wrong. Anyone who thinks the LCG tower will be online before 2007 is smoking something and not sharing.

What are you guys who have multiple 6412 boxes paying for the extra recievers? I picked up a 2nd 6412 yesterday and Comcast is charging me $16.99 extra per month for it and that's a "special" price for the first year.

Most members in other areas of the US report that they are paying $9.99 each for extra boxes.

Why the discrepency?

Also, I've noticed my new box doesn't hiccup or glitch when playing back recorded HD material. The first box I got does this all the time.

jmpage2,
You may want to post in the Denver Comcast thread as well...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5098404#post5098404

DTV is just learning to walk, so I expect some stumbles and falls like KCNC's DD5.1 sound problems and Fox31's sound and video problems a couple of weeks ago. OTOH, the KMGH situation is business decision driven, not technology development driven and the low power from RP is money/politics driven.

Unfortunately (because it means I'm getting old), I remember the growing pains of OTA analog TV from back in the early '50s in Chicago when my dad brought home a 17" B&W as the family's first TV. Lots of snow, lots of ghosts, lots of lost signals and station downtime. But wow, we were watching TV (MIC-KEY MOUSE, wow wow Annette). Fifty years latter, analog TV is pretty reliable and there are a lot of options for maximizing your viewing pleasure. But, analog's limits were reached some time ago.

With DTV today we have stuff that was just written about a dozen years ago. Technical progress with DTV has actually been very rapid. What are we already on now, 3rd generation ATSC tuners? All of this with the full conversion to DTV still several years away (i.e., little pressure on broadcasters to spend big bucks for the best and for reliability).

I'm quite pleased with the technological development and implementation of DTV. I'm also pleased and not surprised that the technical folks at the stations are working to make their product as good as they have the power to make it.

I'm not pleased with the B.S. situation we have in Colorado regarding DTV. This very low power stuff because of money, politics, and NIMBYs really gets me torqued. What we need is for one of our Federal politicos to get some guts and champion the expansion of DTV in Colorado. Put some heat on the FCC. A Tom Tancrado-type for DTV. However, I have little hope that this will happen.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Geof .

as usual it cannot find the signal. KUSA is only watchable on Tuner 1 and every time, bar none, it tries to tune it in using tuner 2 so I have to play a game with this machine and perform an OTA signal strength measurement after which it will use tuner 1. So, I finally get KUSA tuned in only to find it immediately switched to KCNC to record CSI

I had the same problem with drastically different tuner strengths on my tivo. I called d* and they were very good about replacing the receiver and I have had no problems with the new tivo, unless you count a 20 second load time for the guide a problem. Apparently no one at Hughes does. Return it for a new or refurbished receiver before your warranty runs out.
I don't think I got that quote thing right. is there a place on this site where I can learn the fine points of web posting?

The only thing about my hd tivo that I'm not happy about is season pass management. Moving a season pass up to the top of the list is like a 10 minute operation.

Originally posted by CEB II
A Tom Tancrado-type for DTV. However, I have little hope that this will happen. Just tell him that illegal aliens are blocking DTV in Colorado.

Originally posted by CEB II

I'm quite pleased with the technological development and implementation of DTV. I'm also pleased and not surprised that the technical folks at the stations are working to make their product as good as they have the power to make it. The problem is some receivers are more sensitive than others and we've seen this with PSIP, Audio, and just generally being able to receive a signal if nothing is wrong with the bit streams. Station Engineers walk a tightrope trying to make sure their signal is decoded okay by all the various receivers. IMO, it shouldn't be this way.....not 6 years into the "transition". Worse yet, some station engineers haven't yet begun to get up on the learning curve (witness KDTV) and it may well be 2007 before they begin to start broadcasting digitally.

A Tom Tancrado-type for DTV. However, I have little hope that this will happen.

Mr. Tancrado is a bulldog, however, he is a (s)care supporter not an LCG supporter based on past comments he has made.

OK, so I wanted to get a head start and picked up the $25 Yagi from Radio Shack today. I installed it in my attic (after splicing into an existing cable line since a new drop would be close to impossible).

Anyway, I won't have my hd receiver until Tuesday or Wednesday, so no idea what would happen there, but figured if I could get good reception on the analog stations I might be half way there (i.e. just need to do some fine pointing of the antenna).

Anyway this is what I am now seeing:

9, 12, 14, 25, 45 and 50 come in good
31 comes in perfect
20 has some slight ghosting

All other channels are not worth mentioning as the reception is so bad.

I have this installed pretty far back in my attic (near the back of my house which faces denver). So now I am assuming if I am not getting good reception on the analog signals I can probably forget about the digitial ones (can someone confirm). Since fox comes in great I am thinking I should be able to get that with my antenna, so now the questions:

1) Would a better antenna help reception?

2) Could there be an issue with the splicing of the cable which is resulting in a bad signal?

3) Any other thoughts? I would really like to do this in the attic rather then outdoors but if that is the way I have to go (outdoors) so be it - I just want to make sure I am doing everything possible for an indoor install.

The other stange thing is that when I hook my TV to the wall jack which in turn is only hooked up to the coax (i.e. antenna disconnected) I get pretty similar results on some of the channels - almost like in some cases the antenna isn't making any difference whatsoever!

Unfortuntatley I don't have a portable TV so it has been a case of climbing into the attic, playing with the antenna, then coming down and checking the TV.

Any thoughts, advice, suggestions, would be greatly appreciated!

farjo,

I wouldn't base too much on your current 'test'. The yagi antenna isn't intended to pick up VHF signals. It seems to be doing alright on the UHF as of now. All of the digital signals locally are UHF.

Splices are a no-no in this ever so minimal signal area we've got. If the existing coax (btw what type is it?) is loose - not tacked down in the walls - tie the new one on, and pull it down through. Remember, each splice ~will~ cost signal strength. I would strongly suggest replacing the old - possibly unknown - cable run.

You may still end up fiddling with positioning, and depending where you're at, may even need a rotator. I do, and I'm in southwest Denver. Way too much spread between antennas.

As for an 'in use' monitor, use a cordless phone in the attic. Have someone watch the tube and report to you using another phone inside. You won't need to make a call, just push a button to kill the dialtone, and talk until you need to hang up and do it again. Poor-man's walkie-talkie. :)

Just adding my 2¢

Resume party.

Originally posted by farjo08
So now I am assuming if I am not getting good reception on the analog signals I can probably forget about the digital ones (can someone confirm).
Not necessarily. Remember the digital transmitters are usually not in the same locations as their NTSC transmitters, and they are all lower power.

1) Would a better antenna help reception?
Sure. The antenna is the 'main man'.

2) Could there be an issue with the splicing of the cable which is resulting in a bad signal?
Possibly. How did you 'splice' it?

....jc

OK, just realized a few things (before reading the previous responses but they confirm them!). First, I went back in the attic to do the final mounting of the post. I currently just had it resting between beams. Anyway, when I did so I thought one of the cables on the transformer came off, but realized they were the second leads. Now I am not sure if the leads really make a difference, but I had originally hooked it up to the VHF one, so I changed that.

I checked antennaweb.org and sure enough the channels that I am getting really poor / almost no reception on are the VHF ones! The antenna is a UHF only so that makes sense. I also went through the channels and again and fox which always came in perfect still does, but some of the other UHF channels have really cleared up as well.

OK, well I think I am done messing with this for now as fox comes in awesome (and probably the main channel I want in HD anyways) so once I get the receiver I can do a scan and see what I pick up then make some antenna adjustments from there and see if I really do need a better antenna and/or a rotor or I will be good to go with my current setup.

As for replacing the existing coax, that's the problem. I wanted to run a new / clean coax directly from the atenna but the problem is the way the walls are designed (the living room is recessed at the top - think built in shelf) - the other side is the kitched which is recessed lower for the cabinets / appliances) so it's not a straight drop. The original cable actually runs to the far side of the wall and is run through a hole drilled through one of the beams. Based on the positioning I know it has to be run back towards the middle of the wall by about 3 - 4 feet and with the recess I am sure it snakes around the woodwork making a new drop almost impossible (at least for me). That's why I ended up just splicing the original cable as it was much easier and something I can handle.

Thanks for the quick feedback. Once I get the new receiver hooked up and see how things go I will sure to be back!

Originally posted by Fireman_scott
Hello, all...I'm a long-time lurker with my first question:

Can I combine two antenna signals into one coax cable?

I just installed a ChannelMaster 3018 on my roof with a 50' run of quadshield RG6, hooked to my Zenith 520 going into my Hitatchi UWX57. I live in Arvada, and found that I get very good signal strength from most stations, but I have to turn my antenna manually more than 90 degrees to change from CBS to FOX.

Can I just put up a smaller antenna near my big one and join the two lines, so I don't have to run another cable through my attic, down my walls, and into my basement? The antenna is on my roof, not easily accesible from the ground. Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance, and for the years of info and opinion.


I am currently using antennas pointing in opposite directions and thought I would share my experience trying to get signals form Superior.

I have wasted too much time and money on this "hobby" and have tried several different antennas. The best results I have found is with he Winegard Square Shooter. My antennas are in the attic so the smaller size makes them a lot easier to aim.

I have two Square Shooter's pointing North and another two aiming at lookout mountain. The two North facing antennas go through a Channel Master join-tenna that only allows channel 30 to pass. With this setup I get Fox, WB, and CBS without having to move the antennas or use a A/B switch. Because of a ridge blocking my view of downtown I gave up trying to pickup the Republic Plaza stations. Before blocking everything but channel 30 on the North facing antennas the multipath prevented me from locking on the lookout mountain stations.

So far this setup is working great but if another HD station ever starts broadcasting out of Cheyenne I'll have to re-think things. The way it is going Cheyenne will probably be full power before Denver..


Steve

Originally posted by taylor23
...I have two Square Shooter's pointing North and another two aiming at lookout mountain.
Steve,
I guess that I have to ask: What do you receive with only 1 SS pointed in each direction? I guess that you're taking antenna 'stacking' in a new direction :cool:
....jc

farjo08,
Remember, with DTV, all you need is to get above your receiver's threshold for a lock in your location/installation and then the picture is perfect. More signal level from a station just gets you more insurance over signal fluctuaion due to atmospheric and environmental conditions. There's no sense fiddling with it anymore until you get the receiver.

Anyone having problems picking up Fox tonite? Whatever they're doing is causing my RCA DTC-100 to reboot.

Also, anyone notice the Grammy's surround audio is hosed? I've got Front-R & Rear-L carrying the main L/R channels, no center, and Front-L & Rear-R carrying the surround channels.

Anyone else?

Originally posted by RonAuger
farjo08,
Remember, with DTV, all you need is to get above your receiver's threshold for a lock in your location/installation and then the picture is perfect. More signal level from a station just gets you more insurance over signal fluctuaion due to atmospheric and environmental conditions. There's no sense fiddling with it anymore until you get the receiver.

I agree. I finished the mounting and cleaned everything up and packed away to tools. Now I am just waiting for my receiver which should be here Tuesday before going any further. I get great reception on most of the UHF analog channels now and get ABC pretty well even though that is VHF - also get some of the VHF stations but the quality really lacks (which is expected since I have a UHF only antenna). I won't know until I get the receiver if / what stations I will get in HD so hopefully all works out well.

I don't know about fox last night, but how about the mess that was supposed to be ABC.

Many sound problems during Desperate Housewives. Start out as 5.1, then get this bizzare echo (.5 to 1 sec delay), then it would generally flip over to pro logic.

Sound problems continued into Boston Legal, till they eventually gave up and switched to an SD feed.

Sheesh.

...how about the mess that was supposed to be ABC. Many sound problems during Desperate Housewives. Start out as 5.1, then get this bizzare echo (.5 to 1 sec delay), then it would generally flip over to pro logic.

Phew...thought it was just me hearing things. I ended up switching over to SD on Channel 7 'cuz I couldn't stand it. Particularly the echo!

Ken

Hello,
I was wondering anyone could tell me where the transmitter is for the digital signal for channel 2 is ? The company that installed the antenna I have when I got the dish HD box told me that channel 2 was in the tech center but I am reading here that it is on lookout mountain. The reason I am asking is that sometimes I can get this station with no problems and others I can not. It does not seem to be weather related.
Also I understand that channel 31 is on lookout mountain also and I can always receive it(also get 4 and 9 always)/.
Is anyone seeing a problem with channel 2?

Thanks

Channel 2's studios are in the tech center, but their antenna for HD is on Lookout.

Jeff

Hi everybody from the Panama Canal!!!
http://santellaproductions.com/dtv/panama.jpg
I'm down here shooting HD for another documentary. How cool is that.
For the record, No OTA HD here yet either. ;)

And as I was parusing the web...
Sheehan Resigns (http://www.canyoncourier.com/articles/2005/02/10/news/top_story/top.txt)

Hey Ernie. Not as cool as being here (temp-wise..... :) )

I hope you shoot with your eyes open though...:)

Seriously, enjoy your shoot!

Yeah, I usually shoot with them open! That was the only pic my producer shot! Oh well!

Originally posted by alchemist2
Hello,
I was wondering anyone could tell me where the transmitter is for the digital signal for channel 2 is ? The company that installed the antenna I have when I got the dish HD box told me that channel 2 was in the tech center but I am reading here that it is on lookout mountain. The reason I am asking is that sometimes I can get this station with no problems and others I can not. It does not seem to be weather related.
Also I understand that channel 31 is on lookout mountain also and I can always receive it(also get 4 and 9 always)/.
Is anyone seeing a problem with channel 2?

Thanks

Channel 2 has been very flakey for me as well.
Somedays I get it no problem, other days it's all broken up.

Channel 31 is never a problem.

Is channel 2 (wb) broadcasting at a lower power than 31 (fox) , even though both are on lookout?

Fox, KDVR-DT, channel 32, broadcasts at 223 kw. KWGN-DT, channel 34, broadcasts at 450 kw (highest ERP for a DTV broadcast in our area). However, when not pointing an antenna directly at 34, I get more multi-path problems with 34 than I do with 32 or 38. But, I'm in the NW burbs and you guys are SW. The answer is not obvious.

I believe KWGN is generally tougher to receive than KDVR because their transmitter is mounted on a lower tower.

Their engineers who frequent this forum can probably chime in with the technical details.

Hey Ernie, what format do you shoot in? What frame rate? Can the camera do 24p? I must have 24p in my next camera, which will also be HD.

Originally posted by bikenski
I believe KWGN is generally tougher to receive than KDVR because their transmitter is mounted on a lower tower.

Their engineers who frequent this forum can probably chime in with the technical details. I usually find the opposite, that I can pick up KWGN easier than KDVR. But I'm pretty well convinced that both stations have plenty of signal strength and that any reception issues I have are due to multipath.

FWIW, my SASEM receiver always registers 5-7db higher for KWGN and KDVR than for any of the Republic stations.

Joe,
I'm shooting with the Panasonic HDC-27F Vari-cam. It can shoot anything between 4-60 frames per second at 720p. I prefer 30fps as it still has a nice 'film-motion' look, yet not as blurry while panning as shooting 24 fps. And you can edit 30fps much easier than 24. It's an awesome camera... except for the $90,000 price tag!

Earnie:

My wife and I went through those locks two years ago this month. However, we were smart enough to carry a much smaller camera!

Did you see the 'gators?

Hello everyone,

I have been reading many of the posts off and on for the last few months. I am hoping that I missed something...

Has there been any news at all on what is happening with getting a hearing scheduled to rescind the injunction that is keeping LCG from beginning construction.

As I said, I am hoping that I just missed something, but afraid that I have not.

Phil

See the website DenverDTV.info (http://DenverDTV.info ) in Ernie's sig.

HOT NEWS!!!!
The LCGII Judge Jackson Court Date is Set!
July 22nd at the Taj in Jefferson County. 9am Room 5B

July 22, 2005 ???

Though better than it sitting any longer, this is almost a YEAR after the re-hearing...and re-approval by the commissioners.

I wonder if Judge Jackson really has that busy of a docket, or whether this indicates where his feelings lie on the matter.

It sure did not take Scare that long to get on the docket originally...

Phil

I think I read somewhere (here, most likely) that the delay wasn't all Judge Jackson -- the LCG wanted to make sure all the Is were dotted and Ts crossed before they applied for a rehearing.

Did anybody notice/care that 9-2 is now up and running? (no more coming soon)

Yeah, I noticed 9-2 only because the PQ on 9-1, while good, is not as sharp as it used to be due to bandwidth reduction. And, no, I could care less about their WX channel.

But since 9-2 is not available on Comcast (or maybe it is but I missed it), and KUSA's OTA signal doesn't reach many people, who's actually watching this channel and what was their motivation for adding it?

Originally posted by gakon
But since 9-2 is not available on Comcast (or maybe it is but I missed it), and KUSA's OTA signal doesn't reach many people, who's actually watching this channel and what was their motivation for adding it? I actually use it to get a quick check on the forecast. Better than waiting through 20 minutes of murders and fires on the regular news broadcasts. But I wouldn't really say I "watch" it.

Everytime I tune into 9.2, it's giving the forecast for some place other than Colorado. Like I care about other places! Anyway, I enjoy 20 minutes murders and fires, wish it were 30 or 40 minutes. Hopefully next season they will add rapes and accidents to the lineup as well.

I think we need a 24/7 channel on Ward Churchill. Oh wait, KHOW is already doing that. ;)

I got my HR10-250 yesterday and installed the dish and configured the receiver today. I get KDVR, KWGB and KBDI no problem. Actually I get singals in the high 80's for those. However I can't get the other locals, specifically KUSA, KCNC and KRMA. I have my antenna pointed towards downtown but it doesn't help. The others come in great even pointed downtown, so looks like I won't need a rotor but need a better antenna.

I have the antenna installed in my attic and went with the $25 Yagi from radioshack. According to antennaweb.org KUSA and KCNC are blue where I antenna I have was not. I believe it was yellow and red for the zones, definately not blue.

So I need to find an antenna that gets the blue and see if that helps. Currently I can't get any signal on KUSA or KCNC.

The strange thing I noticed, as I was using this to try to test if I was getting the channels, was setting it on the OTA signal test, but no matter where I placed the antenna I never got a singal. When I had it on fox, which I lost for a moment turned my antenna in the opposite direction (hey I tried everything) and set it back towards downtown, the signal stilled show none, but once I changed off the channel and back it came in, so it looks like the signal test doesn't work quite properly when pointing the antenna trying to search for a signal.

BTW, I'm in Wesminster around 128th and Huron.

Hey all. I just recieved my LG LST-4200A today and hooked it up to my antenna I used with VOOM expecting to recieve all the stations i once did(all except 7.1...) after scanning the channels i only recieved 9.1, 9.2, and 4.1 . I went and rotated the antenna a bit and i now pick up 31.1 but barely. 2.1 doesn't show up at all still. The antenna i have is amplified ( i don't remember make\model number, but it came with voom) and am guessing that the LG box doesn't send power to the antenna like the voom box did? If that is the case is there a way to get power to the antenna fvia the coax cable?

Also 9.1 the audio doesn't sync up, all other channels do is this a 9.1 problem or an LG problem?

thanks

quin,

Welcome!
I think you might be out of luck using your old VOOM antenna. As I would think powering it would be impossible without using the original, correct voltage, VOOM receiver.

You will probably need to replace the antenna with a replacement, possobily to include a seperate amp.

Thanks santellavision and Scooper.

Thats a bummer what you say but it will probably work to my advantage in the long run and "maybe" I can get 7 to come in. I 'm only about 2-3 miles from their Speer and Lincoln address.

Any good suggestions to what I should start looking for?

thanks

Does anyone know if any stores in the Denver area (I'm actually in Westminster) carries the Channel master 4221 or 4228? I may need one of these (hopefully will know tomorrow) and wanted to know if the only place to get these are online or if I should be able to find them locally. So far I haven't found anyplace that carries Channel Master antennas around here.

Has anyone here been able to get the west coast feeds for NBC and ABC? I called DTV yesterday after activating my receiver and adding the HD package then called back asking about the west coast HD feeds. They added Fox and CBS saying they have a generic waiver that covers the Denver area so I qualified for them automatically. He said they would submit waivers to NBC and ABC but would need their approval before being able to add them.

I had also read that some people had to obtain waivers themselves as well as cases where DTV handled it. I'm just wondering if there would be any chance I could get those other two as well.

If anyone else here has DTV, from what I was told, the waiver is generic and covers everyone in this area, so if you are not already getting FOX and CBS I would give them a call and you should be able to get those two.

Of course FOX I already pick up no problems locally, it's the downtown stations I can't get but hopefull with a new antenna will solve that problem.

Stark is also a good mail-order choice for antennas.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmuhf.htm

Anyone else having problems getting KUSA this morning (Sunday 2/20)? I always get it with strong signal strength, but today the meter on my 921 is at 70 and then jumps to zero and back, etc. No picture. Nothing.

kusa coming in fine for me (arena football)

Originally posted by farjo08
Has anyone here been able to get the west coast feeds for NBC and ABC? I called DTV yesterday after activating my receiver and adding the HD package then called back asking about the west coast HD feeds. They added Fox and CBS saying they have a generic waiver that covers the Denver area so I qualified for them automatically. He said they would submit waivers to NBC and ABC but would need their approval before being able to add them.

I had also read that some people had to obtain waivers themselves as well as cases where DTV handled it. I'm just wondering if there would be any chance I could get those other two as well.

If anyone else here has DTV, from what I was told, the waiver is generic and covers everyone in this area, so if you are not already getting FOX and CBS I would give them a call and you should be able to get those two.

Of course FOX I already pick up no problems locally, it's the downtown stations I can't get but hopefull with a new antenna will solve that problem.
I live in Ft. Collins, so can't get any Denver OTA stations. I have the D basic package, without locals. Could I get the westcoast stations if I asked them?

I'd recommend calling them. I am not sure what other areas of colorado are covered but I was told the Denver area has waivers for FOX and CBS so it wouldn't hurt to call them and ask if / how you can get the west coast feeds. As for ABC and NBC they said they needed waivers for them so I will see what happens with those and let everyone know if I do eventually get them as well.

Originally posted by John W. Morgart
I live in Ft. Collins, so can't get any Denver OTA stations. I have the D basic package, without locals. Could I get the westcoast stations if I asked them?

I live in Ft. Collins as well. I have the D* locals package and CBS-W HD. For that, I needed a waiver from KGWN in Cheyenne. I called about FOX, but I've never heard back. They were also going to submit a waiver to a Wyoming station.

As far as OTA, with a ChannelMaster 4228, with the screen removed, I get the following HD OTA:

2-1 KWGN WB
5-1 KGWN CBS(Cheyenne)
31-1 KDVR FOX

If you are in a situation where you can try a roof top antenna, I'm sure you can get these. The signals are pretty strong.

Too bad the only owned and operated stations (CBS, FOX) in Denver are the ones available with pretty strong signals OTA north of Denver.

Does anyne else have audio/video sync problems on 9-1?

Well I tried the 4221 and DB8 in my attic but can't get any signal from the republic stations. Outside I can get some singal (I was limited to holding the antenna just to see if I would get anything) and have found some sweet spots where I seemed to get a really good signal but unable to really test since I don't have a way to mount the antenna for testing.

So it looks like I need to go with a roof install so I have a few questions before I go that route.

First, I don't have a chimney or an existing mount so I need to start from scratch. So I am trying to find the best way to go about this.

So what exactly would be invovled with doing a roof mount (i.e. installing the mount, mast, etc) and how easy or difficult would it be (any links would help).

Another option would be to do an eave mount at the back of my house but how sturdy would that be? I am concerned that would not provide enough resistance for strong wind and can rip the antenna down.

Any other options or suggestions would be appreciated. The left side of my house points towards downtown and unfortunately I have a 2 story home right next to me, so where my dish is mounted (on the side wall) I couldn't get any signal with the antennas but near the back corner of my house I could get some, there is a nice gap between the homes there so probably the best location. So I think an eve install at the back of my house would work or a roof mount somewhere next the back - so any tips and suggestions would be appreciated.

Last, while I think I can handle this myself, I might want to get someone to do the install for me, so if anyone know of any professional installers that would do a roof mount it would be appreciated - or if anyone here has experience doing installs and wants to make a few bucks PM me.

Thanks!

John

Originally posted by AkaStp
Great, thanks. Called D* this evening and no problem at all getting FOX HD (channel 89) activated. Unfortunately the same was not true for CBS due to KGWN (Wyoming?) which affects areas North of Denver so it has to go through the waiver process (as well as ABC and NBC). The ER rep I spoke to was quite optimistic about getting waiver granted for CBS. I also asked about more HD Channels and got the usual about adding Locals in late 2005 tyru 2006. He also said they expect to add ESPN-@ in the near future. So, if you have not already done so, give D* a call and you'll probably at least get FOX HD.

Glad it worked out for you. I guess since I am closer to Denver I was already covered by the generic waiver. I am waiting to hear back on ABC and NBC. Hopefully those will go through too.

I'm also considering getting some wall mounts (The 12" ones from radio shack) as that would put the mast out past the gutter and getting like an 8 or 10 foot pole - attach the wall mounts high near the roof and then trying that.

I guess what I really need to do is hook up a coax outside and climb up on the roof and see if I can find a spot where I could get a good signal from downtown without having to go too high (i.e. apex of the roof). If that works then I guess I should be OK with the wall mount and mounting it that way. I'll probably give that a try next weekend.

Again if anyone has any thoughts, suggestions or tips they would be appreciated.

I am noticing some major A/V sync problems with 9.1. They always find some way to screw it up and not learn from it.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Don't get your hopes up too high. I think I've seen posted hereabouts that getting waiver approval for ABC and NBC around here is as likely as receiving an OTA signal from KMGH.
To be honest, I can already get CBS, NBC and Fox via OTA and they are aggregated into my D* HD receiver. Its ABC that I'm missing and that I want (unless I go with Comcast). But, in the case of Fox, if D* offer it and I can have it, then I'll take it. Its strange to see LA news though. There also may be some advantages to getting some of Fox's LA HD programming at different times than from local KDVR so that I can watch say Point Pleasant without conflicting with my wife wanting to watch the Bachelorette. :rolleyes:
What I don't quite understand is why Westminster, which is some 5-10 miles South of Lafayette, is not similarly affected by KGWN from Wyoming (?) which is what...100 miles away?

I'm not sure why you are having problems with CBS, but I had no problem with it.

As for the OTA, right now I am struggling with that. Currently I am only get KDVR, KWGN and KDBI.

I need to mess around outside to see if I can find a spot to get a better signal for the republic stations. I know I have no chance of getting ABC and with the CBS West Coast feed that covers a lot of what I watch, although the times are later, however that helps avoid conflicts as well. NBC I need as that is the only channel that I watch shows on that I currently can't get in HD. I don't watch anything on ABC so no big deal.

My plan tomorrow is to head out on the roof and see if I can find a spot where I can get the republic stations. If all goes well it will be a trip to radio shack to pick up a mast, a wall mount, and some ground wire to permanetly set up the antenna. I am hoping I can get a good clear signal without having to go to the peak of my roof as a wall mount / mast will be much easier to install and based on my tests walking along the side of the house I was able to get some signal with peaks at 100 (although they didn't last long) so hopefully in the same spot but just a little higher will do the trick.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Based on what has been posted in the past by people in Westminster, Broomfield, Lafayette (where I'm at) and Louisville it should be possible to get KCNC, KUSA and KRMA just great from Republic Plaza using the RatShack 40" Yagi or the 4221.
Is it possible that you are using a high gain preamp or a UHF+VHF preamp and you are having problems with other strong signals swamping the ones you are trying to receive? I had that problem when I tried a 28db UHF/VHF preamp with my RatShack 40" Yagi. Eliminating it allowed me to get KCNC, KUSA and KRMA just great from Republic Plaza. Plus, KBDI as well as KWGN and KDVR from Lookout Mtn.

I was loaned the 4221 and DB8 as well as a Winegard preamp. I tried with and without the preamp and actually got better results without the preamp. In the attic I got nothing with and without the preamp on the republic stations. I did manage to get in one spot a signal of about 13 - 16 on KUSA in the attic but that was it.

My initial testing outside was just holding the atenna and walking along the side of my house that faces downtown denver just to see if I would get any signal and found a few spots where I got a weak signal but would peak at times to 100. With the preamp I had a harder time finding any signal - most likely because KDVR and KWGN come in really well they might be overdriving the other signals like you mentioned. I would think I could get the republic stations so tomorrow I plan on heading up on the roof and seeing if I can find a spot where I get a good signal. If all goes well then I just need to get a permanent mount and run the coax properly (for testing I have disconnected one of my DTV feeds into the house and connecting a coax to the outside connector as it is easy to test with. I should know tomorrow if that will suffice and if a wall mount it all I would need to get the job done.

I have the 40" Radioshack Yagi up in my attic right now and plan on just leaving it there. If I do go with the outside I plan on using the 4221 and if I get that working I can take down the antenna in the attic but since that is currently getting me KDVR, KBDI and KWGN I plan on leaving it there for the time being.

Thanks!

I also noticed the audio sync problems on 9-1 the past 2 days. Signal strength was also jumpier than usual with frequent break-ups.

I played around with the 4221 and DB8 outside again a bit today. My ladder doesn't quite get me on the roof so I wasn't able to head up there but this is what I found.

Near the back corner of my house (SW) I seem to have a sweet spot. With the 4221 resting on a ladder / side of the house (about 5 feet up) I was able to get KUSA with the 4221 and the Winegard Chromstar 2000 pre-amp (without the pre-amp I could not get a strong enough signal to lock the station). I was unable to get KCNC though.

Moving to the back with the ladder, I have a little awning (like 2 feet long) over the master bedroom window. Placing the antenna there (holding it there) I seemed to get a stronger signal but couldn't really test as I had nothing to keep the antenna in place.

Also on the side of the house, with the gutter sticking out even the 12" wall mounts from Radio Shack would not get the post past the gutter so that's not an option.

So the questions:

1) Is there a way to do an awning mount (the awning is slopped)? If so what exactly would I need? The top of the awning has shingles (same finish as the root) and there is about a 6" flat surface at the end.

2) As for the roof, I see tri-pods, eves and roof mounts. I have an eve at the apex of the roof near the back which might work, or at the apex of the roof a tripod, but I am looking for more info on roof installs. Specifically what I would need and how to properly secure. I am assuming the tripod or roof mount needs to be secured to a beam and not just in the roof finish - also I suspect you need to do some kind of sealant if you drill into the roof to make sure no water leaks get in.

3) Grounding - I guess the base way is to run a grounding copper wire to a grounding rod and stake it in the ground. I believe as straight and close to the antenna is best. Is that correct?

4) Pre-Amp - Is there a stronger pre-amp then then Winegard that much improve the signal with the antenna mounted on the side of my house in my testing? I got around a 55 - 60 on KUSA but only about a 20 on KCNC. This would be the easiest to mount since I just need to secure it to the wall but with only getting KUSA it doesn't seem worthwhile as if I am going outdoors I want to get KCNC as well.

These last questions have to do with a multi-switch. Currently I have a triple lnb dish with 2 feeds hooked up to the HR10-250, 1 to a DSR6000 (DirecTivo) and 1 to a SAT-T60 (DirecTivo). I want to get the other two antennas hooked up one the DSR6000 and SAT-T60 so I am thinking of a 5x8 multiswitch. Now the questions:

1) Would I get a serios signal degrade with the multiswitch for the satellites? I really want the second tuners hooked up on these so outside of installing a second dish the multiswitch would be the easiest solution.

2) If I get the 5x8 multiswitch and run the outdoor antenna feed to the multi switch, then use a diplexer say on antenna 2 for the satellite and spilt that to the second tuner and to the antenna input on the HR10-250 would that also cause significant singal loss? This would be the easiest to install as I would not need to run any more coax (I already have 4 running into the house for the satellite and would need to run another cable indoors for the antenna).

Thanks!

I would not recommend mounting an antenna on an awning. That sounds an awful lot like an accident waiting to happen. Besides, the awning location only gets you one station and you have not tried higher locations, which may allow you to get more stations. Will you really be happy settling for some compromise location not knowing if you'd be able to to do better with a roof top installation?

Ch. 9 has been terribly out of sync the past several days. Last night during "Medium" it was very noticeably off - at one point it seemed almost a full second off. The 9News shows are off as well. I've only seen one other post about this - is it just a couple of us, or is this affecting everyone?

I have seen it too, but only have watched news lately. It certainly has never been a full second off... even a slight delay is annoying and very noticeable.

9News also seems to be having some kind of problem with their switching between 16x9 and 4x3 formats during the newscasts. I have noticed the problem over the weekend even watching analog 4x3. I am guessing it is some kind of equipment issue since I don't remember them having these kind of issues since they went live with the HD newscasts.

Maybe someone can get an update from Don?


(Wow I just joined the top of the page club. What do I win?) :D

I think their HD server is still broken and they are doing switching manually. Could be part of the audio sync problem as well.

You win the right to do a Quick Edit!

I guess I was expecting more! :D

By the way, did you see the article in the Post about HD Net?

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~2722517,00.html

Are we about due for annual tour #3?

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum. I have been having audio-video sync problems on 9.1 also, At first I thought it was my 921 but it seems to be happening on my neighbors TV as well. Mostly on channel 9.1 and it seems to start happening around 7:30-8:00 pm. and continues throughout the night.

TheBert, It's not just you, it's everybody.

Originally posted by Phil T
I guess I was expecting more! :D

By the way, did you see the article in the Post about HD Net?

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~2722517,00.html

Are we about due for annual tour #3?

I set up the first two, and I would be happy to contact them again to see about one, but we did two tours about 1 year apart, so I thought I would give them a little breather before asking again. If I remember correctly, I think it was Jetlag that got us in to some trouble chasing some of the female on air talent into one of the cloakrooms. :D

I was thinking about something in the spring or the fall since so many people are usually on vacation in the summer.

I wrote to 9News long before I even got an HDTV because you can tell even watching their low-definition newscasts that the aspect ratio is wrong, and then sometimes it SNAPS back into the correct version. The response was basically "we gets video from around da world in 4:3, but our video is shot in 16:9 and we gets confused, yo". Of course after my e-mail it decreased a little, but it still happens from time to time. I definitely think that KUSA made the WRONG selection in which HD equipment to purchase.

Write to don.perez@9news.com concerning the A/V sync issues. I 'll write right now, but if more than one of us writes, perhaps maybe, just maybe, he will think that it is an issue that actually matters. Good luck!

Hey Joe,

Not to rain (too much) on your KUSA bashing, but a lot of us have met Don, and he really does seem to care about the quality of the HD product he puts out. As to the equipment they've got - at least some of it is product from Sony that they're effectively beta testing since Sony hasn't even rolled it out yet. Remember, there's only 4 stations in the country producing local news in HD, and since KUSA is one of them, we should expect more issues as they implement bleeding edge equipment into their system.

My defense of Don, by the way, has nothing at all to do with the fact that he gave us some cool t-shirts last time we visited KUSA :)

I don't care about HD news (it seems at least 2 of the cameras they use in the field have multiple dead pixels anyway). But if people are buying HDTV's and they see the craptastic job that KUSA does, they won't exactly urge their friends to go out and buy HDTVs, especially with so few HDTV channels to be had. The sooner everyone shapes up, the sooner it will be worth it for the masses to convert to HDTV, and the sooner we get more HDTV channels. It's gonna be a loooooong time after 2007 before we see "all digital and no analog" transmissions. I don't know how KUSA can do a much worse job than KCNC and KDVR with "bleeding edge technology". Of course if it's from Sony, then it probably has tons of bugs as most first-year Sony stuff tends to have. I'm sure they accepted the Sony stuff because they could get it for free or cheap.

No matter what, KUSA has consistent issues, moreso than the other stations and especially with their presentation of network feeds. They also have horrible picture quality due to the disgusting amount of compression artifacts that I constantly see. It is not my obligation to care why, only that they get them fixed. Nor would I ever wear a shirt with 9News printed on it (or any other station for that matter).

It is going to be a "loooooong" time before the digital transition is complete. Well beyond 2007. The good news is that it's only going to get better as time goes on.

As for news in HD, I care. Actually, I care about ANY content in HD right now, even with "multiple dead pixels", because if we're going to transition, we need ALL content to be in HD, since it will be the standard. Thank you to KUSA for investing time and resources before just about anybody. And no, I wouldn't wear a shirt that says 9News either (not that anyone here should care what I wear or be denigrated for what they wear).

I've seen problems with every HD channel I've received. I'm still enjoying tremendous quality a few years before it's completely ready for prime time. When things aren't going well, I flip to the SD or another channel. It can be frustrating, but it works out. Enjoy your viewing.

I also care about 9News, I switched from KCNC's news over to 9News because it was in HiDef, and for the most part I think they do a pretty good job. They are making more of an effort than any of the other local news channels are.

Now NBC as a whole has a ways to go to catch up but that is a different story.

Later
Joe

My biggest complaint about KUSA is the loss of picture quality due to the worthless 9-2 weather channel. Maybe NBC is forcing affiliates to put up the channel. Does anybody know how many NBC stations in the country are multicasting a weather channel?

And the only news we watch is 9News precisely because it is HD. If another station was delivering HD news, they would certainly get some viewing time.

Originally posted by TheBert
Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum. I have been having audio-video sync problems on 9.1 also, At first I thought it was my 921 but it seems to be happening on my neighbors TV as well. Mostly on channel 9.1 and it seems to start happening around 7:30-8:00 pm. and continues throughout the night.

Hello TheBert,

Both you and your neighbor in Longmont are getting KUSA-DT? Impressive. What general area of Longmont are you at? Do you have an outside antenna and how high off of the ground are you?

Don

I am on the NE side of town, I bought the 160" dual Boom 57 element from Radio Shack and stuck it on a five foot pole, Welded up a mounting bracket and stuck it on the chimney, (on top of the second story) pointed it at 183 deg. and scanned, I can receive 2.1,4.1,6.1,9.1,9.2,31.1 and a couple others. The weekest signal strength is 70 on 9.1. I hooked up the same setup at my sisters except hers is in the attic (thanks to the HOA) and she gets the same as me on the far NW end of town

TheBert,

HOA's cannot stop her from putting up an outside antenna. It's the law. (As long as it's her controlled property and not a Condo roof for example)

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
...Maybe NBC is forcing affiliates to put up the channel. Does anybody know how many NBC stations in the country are multicasting a weather channel?
No force(been discussed before), it's up to the affiliates. Costs them $100k+ for equipment, no charge from NBC, and they split the profits with NBC.

From an article that I read...
Thirteen of NBC's 14 network-owned stations now have local WeatherPlus channels. So do affiliate stations in Sacramento and Orlando. Twenty-three more NBC stations will start up in the coming weeks and months.
So, it's anybody's guess, how many NBC stations will eventually broadcast this stuff. The good news is that NBC doesn't broadcast football!:D

....jc

No force(been discussed before), it's up to the affiliates. Costs them $100k+ for equipment, no charge from NBC, and they split the profits with NBC.
How does the weather channel profit?

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
How does the weather channel profit?
I assume it's commercials, 'brought to you by', or endorsements of some sort. I know that I read the 'profits' would be split. Unfortunately, KUSA's powerful signal, is not strong enough for me to have enjoyed the wonders of WeatherPlus. I'll just have to suffer for a few more years.:eek:

....jc

Originally posted by TheBert
I am on the NE side of town ... I can receive 2.1,4.1,6.1,9.1,9.2,31.1 and a couple others.

TheBert,

This is interesting. I'm also on the NE part of Longmont (near 17th and Alpine) and can only pull in 2 and 31, but then I'm using an antenna in the attic of a ranch home. There may be hope it I put up an outside antenna high enough. Thanks for the encouragement! :)

Dave6833


I'm on the 1400 block of Hilltop (off 17th) just west of Alpine, you can drive by and check it out, There is allot of roof top antennas on my street. The antenna I'm using is the VU 190 XR. Stop by Radio Shack and see Megan, She is good to work with. Like I said in an earlier post I set up the same kind of antenna in my sisters attic and she receives everything I can. Good Luck

Anyone else lose KWGN last night around 8:20? Still no signal as of around 530 this morning.

Yea it's out here in lakewood too.

All,

Last night at 8:15pm we lost power to our HD Transmitter at our site at Lookout Mountain. Power was restored this morning and we are back on the air. Sorry for the unplanned interruption.

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV

(s)carey thought!

All,

Sorry for some bad news but due to an unforeseen problem with a Main AC service breaker, our DTV service will be off until Monday at the earliest. We hope the problem will be resolved with the replacement.

Again, sorry for the interruption!

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV/WB2 Colorado

Dave, as always we appreciate your candor & honesty. Thanks for letting us know.:)

Originally posted by KWGN-TV
All,

Sorry for some bad news but due to an unforeseen problem with a Main AC service breaker, our DTV service will be off until Monday at the earliest. We hope the problem will be resolved with the replacement.

Again, sorry for the interruption!

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV/WB2 Colorado First let me say I'm not beating up on Dave. :( If this had happened to their analog broadcast service, the station would be doing EVERYTHING possible to have it back on the air. Plus I'm sure some heads would roll. Since it's the DTV broadcast, AHHH! what does a couple of days matter? It just demonstrated the concern that broadcasters, at least local, have for DTV. It just amazes me. :rolleyes: Again, I'm not pointing fingers at Dave. We do appreciate you letting us know. :)

Of course! It all has to do with number of eyeballs.
I sure would like to see some way of gauging DTV household numbers come about.

All,

We recevied a new breaker from the west coast and installed on Saturday morning. The breaker seemed to solve the problem but not completely and we are still troubleshooting the power problem. Hope to be back to operation very soon.

Dave Martinez
KWGN-TV/WB2 Colorado

Someone just turned me on to this info. It's the channel elections by the Denver stations. This is what they have elected their final digital channel number to be('Cur' is their current analog channel number):

Cur Station Final
-------------------------------
  2   KWGN  34
  4   KCNC   35
  6   KRMA     6
  7   KMGH    7
  9   KUSA     9
12   KBDI    13*
31   KDVR   32
59   KPXC   43

*Due to KKTU in Cheyenne taking channel 11, KBDI could not have channel 12.

I'm not gona say, 'I told ya so', oh wait, what the h*ll, I told ya so! There, I feel better now. But there is still a possibility that your new UHF antenna will pick up the new VHF digital channels.

But, then there is reality(in Denver anyway). I don't know if the new channel assignments will ever be used:(

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired


But, then there is reality(in Denver anyway). I don't know if the new channel assignments will ever be used:(

Sure they will. Makes it easier for Ch 7 & 9, just change the format from NTSC to ATSC on the Lookout antenna and maybe move the NTSC signal to Republic on switchover day (if needed/allowed).

Are those actual spectrum choices (as in VHF or UHF frequencies) or just call numbers for re-mapping on your decoder?

Anybody have some more info. on this? This could easily effect what type of antenna to install on the roof. Thanx.

Dan

Yes, the final elections are the actual broadcast channels that the stations have informed the FCC that they plan to use once the transition is complete- there is no remapping involved in these numbers. So- yup, if everything goes to plan KRMA, KMGH and KUSA plan to broadcast ATSC on their current VHF frequencies. The FCC gave broadcasters the opportunity to chose which frequency to keep- their current "legacy" NTSC allocation or their alternate, current ATSC frequency. Kind of annoying since so many of us have UHF-only antennas.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Someone just turned me on to this info. It's the channel elections by the Denver stations. This is what they have elected their final digital channel number to be('Cur' is their current analog channel number):

Cur Station Final
-------------------------------
  2   KWGN  34
  4   KCNC   35
  6   KRMA     6
  7   KMGH    7
  9   KUSA     9
12   KBDI    13*
31   KDVR   32
59   KPXC   43

What about KTVD? They are the fourth channel in the LCG-II consortium, the only one who doesn't have even a temporary DTV signal.

It is notable that the low-frequency VHF channels (KWGN and KCNC) decided to keep their UHF assignments. From what I've read in other threads, it seems that low-VHF is problematic for DTV.

Originally posted by oxothuk
What about KTVD? They are the fourth channel in the LCG-II consortium, the only one who doesn't have even a temporary DTV signal.

Sorry, missed that one! KTVD has elected to use channel 19.
....jc

Originally posted by oxothuk
It is notable that the low-frequency VHF channels (KWGN and KCNC) decided to keep their UHF assignments. From what I've read in other threads, it seems that low-VHF is problematic for DTV.

The surprise to me is that KRMA chose channel 6, so they are the only one in low-band VHF. The antennas with good gain in this band tend to be a lot bigger. And, I think a lot of FM traps attenuate channel 6 somewhat also. I hope I can pick them up OK in Ft. Collins with my current medium-sized VHF/UHF combo. Channel 6 analog is a bit snowy.

Mark

So I am confused on where this information came from. When I went to the FCC website and used this link:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=CO&call=&arn=&city=den&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

It doesn't mention any of the long term assignments above. Where is this data coming from?

Originally posted by colofan
It doesn't mention any of the long term assignments above. Where is this data coming from?
Don't be confused young man, stand tall and walk this way ----->

That link will work:
Select one of the stations.
At the bottom of one of the lists select Application List.
Select the BFRECT application(sometimes just select the most recent).
That application will detail their selection.

....jc

What I wonder is if these channel elections tell us something as to whether the stations ever intend to build LCG2. The UHF assignments for the original LCG consortium were 16,17,18,19 and 34. I thought I heard once that the adjacent channel assignments would allow some sharing of resources.

So instead of "WB2 News at 9" it will be "WB34 news at 9"? And we'll constantly see "You're watching Fox32" promos? The stations are going to have to redesign their logos. They should pay me to do it for them instead of hiring some expensive firm to do it and get crappy results.

Originally posted by Joe Redifer
So instead of "WB2 News at 9" it will be "WB34 news at 9"? And we'll constantly see "You're watching Fox32" promos? The stations are going to have to redesign their logos. They should pay me to do it for them instead of hiring some expensive firm to do it and get crappy results.
This is precisely why, when I learned of the possibility of the stations retaining their original channel number, that I figured that some would do so. Companies' spend copious sums to create an identity. And, I now realize, that the low VHF frequencies are not the best suited for digital signals, and thus 2 & 4 punted.

BTW, are you a graphic person? Maybe we should talk!
....jc

JC? Are you THE "JC"? :) I'm more of a video person, but I do graphics from time to time. Rarely do 3D modelling, though.

Originally posted by oxothuk
What I wonder is if these channel elections tell us something as to whether the stations ever intend to build LCG2. The UHF assignments for the original LCG consortium were 16,17,18,19 and 34. I thought I heard once that the adjacent channel assignments would allow some sharing of resources.

Excellent point... good catch.

Don

Actually, we're only talking about the stations election for a transmission frequency. The FCC may still allow them to remap if their old freq is not reused for DTV in the DMA. Just like it is now WB-DTV is on 34 but they still call it WB2.

I actually think there is another round of elections in the process. i believe in the next round, stations can move to open freqs. (since each station is assigned 2 now, and elects one of those 2, there will be open freqs. after analog is shut off). I believe some stations (in the 30s 40s) may choose to move to empty freqs in a lower range in order to save money on electricity). Of course if they've already invested in equipment for their higher freq. they may not do it, but I do think the process allows one more round of selections.

I read about the election process some time ago, and that is why I chose to go with combo antenna. I'm not surprised that WB didn't want channel 2, but I thought KCNC might try to go with 4 (to save $$ on electricity). I'm not at all surprised about the other VHF stations.

I am a little surprised about KTVD, however. Seeing as how LCG II is no sure thing, I'd think they would want DTV on their current freq. so they could just do a "change-out" and have a better case that it is the "same service". I could see (s)CARE saying 'it's not even the same frequency, how can it be the same service?"

Originally posted by gkanders
I actually think there is another round of elections in the process. i believe in the next round, stations can move to open freqs. (since each station is assigned 2 now, and elects one of those 2, there will be open freqs. after analog is shut off). I believe some stations (in the 30s 40s) may choose to move to empty freqs in a lower range in order to save money on electricity). Of course if they've already invested in equipment for their higher freq. they may not do it, but I do think the process allows one more round of selections.
Actually a total of 3 rounds is supposed to happen:
December 2004
Round One of channel election - Station licensees with two in-core channels elect the channel they prefer to retain for digital broadcasting, and licensees with one in-core and one out-of-core channel elect whether to use their in-core channel for post-transition digital operation.

July 1, 2005
Station licensees affiliated with the top-four networks in the top 100 markets that receive a tentative digital channel designation in the channel election process on their current digital channel must construct full, authorized facilities. Such licensees that receive a tentative digital channel designation on a channel that is not their current digital channel must serve at least 100% of their analog population coverage.
I wish!
July 2005
Round Two of channel election - Station licensees without a current in-core channel assignment elect a channel from those available after Round One.

January 2006
Round Three of channel election - Station licensees not yet assigned a channel, or assigned channel 2 through 6, may elect a channel from those available after Round Two. After Round Three, the Commission will resolve remaining conflicts based on relevant factors.

July 1, 2006
All other commercial station licensees and all noncommercial licensees that receive a tentative digital channel designation in the channel election process on their current digital channel must construct full, authorized DTV facilities. Such licensees that receive a tentative digital channel designation on a channel that is not their current digital channel must serve at least 80% of their analog population coverage.

August 2006
FCC will issue Notice of Proposed Rulemaking proposing and seeking comment on new DTV Table of Allotments.

December 31, 2006
All analog broadcast licenses expire (subject to market penetration threshold).

So, I really don't see where a station can dump the channel that they just selected in round 1, unless they have a channel in the low VHF range(2-6).
....jc

But you didn't say where you are cutting/pasting from. If its the original 1998 DTV schedule, allot has changed since then. For instance 12/31/2006 will not be analog shut-off -- that's a given.

Originally posted by RonAuger
But you didn't say where you are cutting/pasting from. If its the original 1998 DTV schedule, allot has changed since then. For instance 12/31/2006 will not be analog shut-off -- that's a given.
The info came from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Other documents that I've seen seem to support this timeline. And, yes, 12/31/06 will not likely happen due to the 'Market Penetration Threshold'. Also, come 07/01/05, Denver will likely be one of the few DMA's in the top 100, that don't have the top 4 networks broadcasting at full power.
....jc

OK, I plan on messing with my antenna outside again on Sunday (been away this past week so no time to try to find a good spot for mounting it).

However I may have a problem. I live in a HOA and they are a real pain in the a$$. I need to submit a form seeking approval to install an outdoor antenna including a reason why as well as a diagram showing where I plan to install it, how big the mast will be, how far above the roofline it will extend, etc. I know the FCC has a regulation that prohibits HOAs from banning outdoor antennas but I don't expect this to go smoothly.

So the questions:

First, I spliced my cable line to install the antenna in the attic. I don't have the proper stripping tools and used a connector from radio shack along with a RG6 cable from radio shack to merge the cables. I did the same split outside when I ran the two additional lines for the triple LNB dish. I noticed a problem when I got back where I wasn't getting a signal on one of my DTV receivers which I fixed - but I know the signal strength on my other two receivers are lower before I installed the grounding block. I don't recall what the original signal strengths were but on my HR10-250 everything is in the 80's and 90's with a few transponders at 100. The other two receivers range from the low 60's to the mid 90's. I want to redo the outdoor cabling and connectors for those two as I want to install a multiswitch so I can hook up the other 2 tuners on my other receivers.

So could my split and possibly bad connection / low grade radio shack coax be reason enough to not get a signal on KUSA and KCNC? At one point I was getting about a 13 - 16 from my attic on those but since messing with different antennas lost them. So I am wondering if I install a better cable and connectors and try again in the attic with the 40" Yagi from Radio Shack, CM4221 and/or DB8 with and without a preamp if I might be able to get a good enough signal in my attic - or if it wouln't be worth it.

The other question I have is for people in HOAs. Have any of you had any problems or restrictions with putting up an outdoor antenna? At this point I know that would get me the signals I want and would prefer to go that route (I had an incident while in the attic where while I only stepped on the cross beams - the attic is unfinished so just beams and insulation) in two areas in my ceiling I had a screw head pop through the drywall and have 2 hairline cracks in my ceiling - so I'd rather not go back up there if I don't have to.

Oh the troubles just to get HD....

Originally posted by farjo08
However I may have a problem. I live in a HOA and they are a real pain in the a$$. I need to submit a form seeking approval to install an outdoor antenna including a reason why as well as a diagram showing where I plan to install it, how big the mast will be, how far above the roofline it will extend, etc. I know the FCC has a regulation that prohibits HOAs from banning outdoor antennas but I don't expect this to go smoothly.[
Farjo, hahaha, they've got U playing their game! As long as you own the property where the antenna is to be placed, ignore the 'controllers'. Just follow the FCC rules. Do Not submit a thing to them! They love submissiveness. I live in a 'covenented community', where, when I moved in, they tried to scare me with their 'power'.....They leave me alone now!

They are rewritting the covenents, and I am surprised that they didn't try to outlaw my tower(only 26' high). But they are hassling a lot of other people.

Cabling: Easy! Yup, if there is any little problem, it could effect your reception. Bad connections or bad cable can easily do the trick. Obviously, if you put the antenna outdoors, you will get better reception. And, if you must go back into the attic, try spreading out boards to crawl on. If ya spread out the weight, you'll have less chance of damage, or taking the ceiling elevator(down of course!).
...jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Farjo, hahaha, they've got U playing their game! As long as you own the property where the antenna is to be placed, ignore the 'controllers'. Just follow the FCC rules. Do Not submit a thing to them! They love submissiveness. I live in a 'covenented community', where, when I moved in, they tried to scare me with their 'power'.....They leave me alone now!

They are rewritting the covenents, and I am surprised that they didn't try to outlaw my tower(only 26' high). But they are hassling a lot of other people.

Cabling: Easy! Yup, if there is any little problem, it could effect your reception. Bad connections or bad cable can easily do the trick. Obviously, if you put the antenna outdoors, you will get better reception. And, if you must go back into the attic, try spreading out boards to crawl on. If ya spread out the weight, you'll have less chance of damage, or taking the ceiling elevator(down of course!).
...jc

Thanks... Actually the HOA should not be a problem but the person I talked to on the phone today was rude telling me I can't do it and would piss of the neighbors. While I don't want to intentionally piss off my neighbors, it's not like I have much of a choice. In addition, who's to say my neighbors would be pissed anyways?

As for the attic, yea, I was thinking of that too, of course a bit too late, but that's what frustrated me most about all this - in that I installed the antenna and can't get the republic stations and may have no choice but to go outside so all that work (and damage) for nothing.... I'm getting better now, and see a little humor in it, but man was I pissed when it happened!

Originally posted by farjo08
Thanks... Actually the HOA should not be a problem but the person I talked to on the phone today was rude telling me I can't do it and would piss of the neighbors.
Yea. I have a problem with people that try to control my life. But, if it gets bad, they can't cover everything in the 'covenents'. Paint your driveway Pink! Did they 'cover' that?

While I don't want to intentionally piss off my neighbors, it's not like I have much of a choice. In addition, who's to say my neighbors would be pissed anyways?
Exactly! They might just come over to see if you can receive what they can't! It's just another sad reminder, that the America that I grew up in, is not the America that we live in.
....jc

As long as you are within safety limits and don't exceed the county ordinances' mast height (basically going further than you need to to get good reception), the HOA can go ---- themselves.

I hate HOA's. A bunch of mini-Hitler wannabes.

Dan

farjo08
Just give the HOA the phone number to Deb Carney's office and tell them to talk to somebody who "CARES".
:D

I'm going to send them the notification tomorrow. I figure I would be nice about this and play by their rules (initially). I will also include a full copy of the FCC regulation explaining my rights to install an outdoor antenna. I don't think there would be a problem but you never know.

I had my dish installed within a week of moving in and never notified them. Reading the guidelines last night apparently I was supposed to notify them before doing the install. It's been 3 years and no problems - although dishes are abundant in my neighborhood.

While I don't really care about what the neighbors think, I know some of them can be pricks. I remember the first block party we had and two stories I was told. One was about my neighbor (who never shows up to these). They had a rock garden covering their entire backyard and some of the neighbors complained (I am on the corner of a cul-de-sac and the neighbor is just to my right - so many of the homes in the cul-de-sac can see their yard. Anyways some of them complained to the HOA and they were forced to plant glass covering 3/4 of their yard.

Another neighbor told me how they had to get rid of their dog because some of the neighbors complained of the barking. They insist it wasn't their dog but had to get rid of it - so I know some of the neighbors can be a real pain in the a$$ and the HOA does flex it's arms. But the law is on my side so I will send them the notification and hopefully they won't bitch about it. I plan on doing a permanent mount next weekend (hopefully will find the right location this weekend) and will install regardless as to whether I hear back from them. Actually the notice just says you need to inform them - says nothing about getting a response / needing approval so it looks good for me!

You have it wrong - install the antenna, and then refer them to the FCC regs if they complain.

There is no need for you to ask for permission, nor do they have any right to grant it. The FCC has explicitly given you permission, and your HOA can say whatever they want to about it either way, it simply doesn't matter.

Originally posted by AkaStp
Following up on a post I made a week or two ago about having no problem getting Directv to turn on the FOX West feed (due to blanket waiver for our area) but that they needed to do the waiver thing for CBS due to the conflicting station from WY that supposedly affects those of us North of Denver (I'm in Lafayette). Anyway, I discovered today that the CBS West feed has been turned on for me so presumably the waiver was granted (though no formal notification yet). Now if only it were possible to get ABC. Will have to wait to see if Directv will be successful in getting waiver approval from KMGH to provide the W. coast ABC feed.

I'm glad that worked out for you. Do you have online access to your account information on DirecTV? If so, I am wondering if CBS shows up in your package. The reason I ask is that it's been about 2 weeks since I got my HD receiver and called DTV to get the west coast feeds. The blanket waiver got me FOX and CBS immediately but said they needed waivers for ABC and NBC. I have not heard antyhing from them yet nor have I checked the stations - I removed them from the guide since I wasn't getting them but will check when I get home to see if I get a signal. FOX and CBS HD show up in my programming information so just wondering if CBS now shows up for you since you have CBS now (and did not get notified).

Originally posted by farjo08
I'm glad that worked out for you. Do you have online access to your account information on DirecTV? If so, I am wondering if CBS shows up in your package. The reason I ask is that it's been about 2 weeks since I got my HD receiver and called DTV to get the west coast feeds. The blanket waiver got me FOX and CBS immediately but said they needed waivers for ABC and NBC. I have not heard antyhing from them yet nor have I checked the stations - I removed them from the guide since I wasn't getting them but will check when I get home to see if I get a signal. FOX and CBS HD show up in my programming information so just wondering if CBS now shows up for you since you have CBS now (and did not get notified).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Upon reading a few posts a couple of weeks ago, I called D* on Monday to try to get "local" HD stations. They said I could get FOX and CBS westcoasts feeds, and they turned them on right then. But ..I could not get ABC and NBC at this time. He said maybe later in the year, but did not give me a reason.

Originally posted by John W. Morgart
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Upon reading a few posts a couple of weeks ago, I called D* on Monday to try to get "local" HD stations. They said I could get FOX and CBS westcoasts feeds, and they turned them on right then. But ..I could not get ABC and NBC at this time. He said maybe later in the year, but did not give me a reason.

I still have not heard back from D* but I did call KUSA and UMGH to inquire about waivers. KUSA said they do not grant them period. They said there is a hearing in June to seek approval for the new tower so they expect that will go through and their DTV signal will be available more easily shortly (yeah right). KMGH also said they do not grant any waivers however they just completed an agreement with DirecTV which would allow us to receive their HD signal sometime this summer. She (Mickey) did not provide much details but said it would allow us to receive the West Coast feed - so possibly a blanket waiver.

Since I doubt that we'll have full power digital signals by football season, I think that it's time for plan B. The problem is Fox. Living in the C/S DMA, D* obviously won't give me Denver locals(or DNS). So, it looks like one of my receivers may be 'moving'. If, for instance, it 'moved' to Loveland(my sister lives there), will I be able to get Fox just like Denver folk's do? Also, will I need a waiver for any of the other channels?

Also, since the receiver will not be in the same location as the others, it will be billed seperately, thus no multiple receiver price. Does D* have a locals only package?

With preseason only 5 months away, it's time to start planning:p

Thanks,
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Since I doubt that we'll have full power digital signals by football season, I think that it's time for plan B. The problem is Fox. Living in the C/S DMA, D* obviously won't give me Denver locals(or DNS). So, it looks like one of my receivers may be 'moving'. If, for instance, it 'moved' to Loveland(my sister lives there), will I be able to get Fox just like Denver folk's do? Also, will I need a waiver for any of the other channels?

Also, since the receiver will not be in the same location as the others, it will be billed seperately, thus no multiple receiver price. Does D* have a locals only package?

With preseason only 5 months away, it's time to start planning:p

Thanks,
....jc

Locationd definately matters. As for Loveland, I am not sure specifically, but I know people who have receivers billed to addreses in the mountains / high country and get both the east and west coast feeds simply because they can't receive any local programming.

What you can do is call them and simply ask, state that you are a new customer thinking about getting DTV and had some questions about the locals.

What you might want to do, is change your address to your sisters, keep the same account but her address, rather then subbing a whole new box. You montly bill would be the same and you can even pay / view your bills online so no big deal. Of course, tjat is assuming Loveland would get you the other locals. Just make sure you don't plug your receiver into a phoneline as the area code would be different and could cause problems.

I still have 1 receiver subbed back in NY on my same account and just pay the $5 extra a month for it. It is not plugged into a phone line and no PPV's are ordered so it's not a problem. As long as you don't plug in your receivers it doesn't matter where they are physically located. You will receive the local programming provided at the billing address.

Actually I have even been considering telling DTV I moved back to NY just so I can get the east coast HD feeds since they would be the local market, but I also like getting the Denver locals and would want them too so for me it would be one or the other but not both.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
...So, it looks like one of my receivers may be 'moving'. If, for instance, it 'moved' to Loveland(my sister lives there), will I be able to get Fox just like Denver folk's do? Also, will I need a waiver for any of the other channels?

Well, I live in Loveland and called in the beginning of January about activating the HD National feeds on D*. No channels were turned on while I was on the phone...they told me that CBS and FOX were eligible (O&O), but that they still needed to submit waivers. They said that it could take up to 45 days.

I'm not sure who they submitted the waivers to, but I had already asked CBS-Cheyenne for one. I received one via snail mail within a few days of asking, faxed it over to D* and they turned on CBSW-HD a couple of days after that. I still have not heard anything from/about FOX. But, I haven't really bothered to follow up because I get FOX OTA very well/consistantly.

Originally posted by mikeaco
Well, I live in Loveland and called in the beginning of January about activating the HD National feeds on D*. No channels were turned on while I was on the phone...they told me that CBS and FOX were eligible (O&O), but that they still needed to submit waivers. They said that it could take up to 45 days.
Thanks,
I guess that answers my question. I'm looking for somewhere in the Denver DMA to 'move' where I can get Fox HD right off the batt, and then when Denver gets LIL(hopefully this year), get that. My guess is that it will easily be '07 before C/S gets HD LIL, and I wouldn't have to consider 'moving'.
....jc

KMGH also said they do not grant any waivers however they just completed an agreement with DirecTV which would allow us to receive their HD signal sometime this summer. She (Mickey) did not provide much details but said it would allow us to receive the West Coast feed - so possibly a blanket waiver.

I would think that this is just the HD LiL agreement, not a waiver.

Don

Originally posted by AkaStp
Following up on a post I made a week or two ago about having no problem getting Directv to turn on the FOX West feed (due to blanket waiver for our area) but that they needed to do the waiver thing for CBS due to the conflicting station from WY that supposedly affects those of us North of Denver (I'm in Lafayette). Anyway, I discovered today that the CBS West feed has been turned on for me so presumably the waiver was granted (though no formal notification yet). Now if only it were possible to get ABC. Will have to wait to see if Directv will be successful in getting waiver approval from KMGH to provide the W. coast ABC feed.

I don't think there is a blanket waiver for the FOX West feed. I live in Longmont, and had no trouble getting CBS West HD turned on (CBS in Cheyenne has been very cooperative), but I've had no luck at all with FOX-W HD. The problem for me is FOX in Cheyenne, and they don't grant waivers. There seem to be a number of people on this forum that live further north than I do who get FOX-W-HD turned on. DirecTV insists that my address does not qualify, and that slightly different locations can make the difference. They could not explain how people closer to Cheyenne CAN get FOX-W-HD turned on, but I can't. I've given up fighting with them, since my OTA reception is OK for FOX-31. It still doesn't make any sense. :mad:

Originally posted by jab80503
I don't think there is a blanket waiver for the FOX West feed. I live in Longmont, and had no trouble getting CBS West HD turned on (CBS in Cheyenne has been very cooperative), but I've had no luck at all with FOX-W HD. The problem for me is FOX in Cheyenne, and they don't grant waivers. There seem to be a number of people on this forum that live further north than I do who get FOX-W-HD turned on. DirecTV insists that my address does not qualify, and that slightly different locations can make the difference. They could not explain how people closer to Cheyenne CAN get FOX-W-HD turned on, but I can't. I've given up fighting with them, since my OTA reception is OK for FOX-31. It still doesn't make any sense. :mad:

I am not sure how widespread the blanket waiver covers but when I first called to activate my receiver and add the HD package I was told my area (Denver and it's surrounding areas) are covered by a blanket waiver. Longmont is further North then I am and perhaps within range of what they feel is acceptable to receiver their FOX feed which is why you don't qualify. As to why people further North of you do qualify, I'm not sure. Maybe there are obstructions to Cheyenne's signals that prevents some areas from receiving their channel and are automatically covered as well. Sorry to hear you can't get it. Also, for me it's not that big of a deal since I have no problem getting KDVR. It's ABC that I really want since I can't receive their signal although to be honest I don't watch anything on ABC so I'm not missing anything. What is nice with having the west coast feeds is that if I have scheduling conflicts (more then 2 programs to record at once) the west coast feeds help as I can still record the program although at a later start time - but since I am already recording 2 programs at once the start time is not an issue - but a nice convenience.

After doing some testing myself, and still unable to get on the roof, I decided to go with a professional install and called Alpine Electronics today as I have seen a few people here seemed to use them before with good results.

Anyway, what I am planning on having them do is the outdoor install and wiring to a grounding block. I will do the internal wiring myself hopefully over the weekend (I have a multiswitch and coax on the way to do some other internal wiring so I figured I would save myself some money and do the internal wiring myself). What I plan on doing is just disconnecting one of my LNB feeds and hooking that up to the antenna input on my reciever for testing purposes.

So the questions:

1) Has anyone had them do a full install including a mast and mount? I am having them do everything and wanted to see what otherse experiences were.

2) It sounds like they are going to try a tripod install. Any problems with this and anything else I should be aware of?

3) I live in a HOA so I will make sure the install adheres to their requirements but I don't think this will be an issue.

4) I have a CM4221 and DB8 along with a winegard pre-amp on loan (if the eqiptment works I can purchase it which is what I am planning on doing). So any suggestions on which one to go with? And any thought to having the pre-amp installed? I know I can always disconnect the power to bypass it so having it mounted on the antenna might save time if I need it due to a poor signal and/or dropouts so I won't have to venture up on the roof myself to do it.

5) Would it be worthwhile to just get a UHF/VHF antenna installed instead? This would allow me to get all the analog locals (I currently get the locals through D* so I don't really need them) as well as set myself up for the future in the event any broadcasts move to VHF as there seems to be some speculation here in the last few posts that could happen.

Thanks! Hopefully all will go well and I will finally have all the locals (except ABC of course) throuh OTA / Digital / HDTV. Finally!

Anyone know what the following channels are and if they can be received in Westminster (without a rotor)? My guide data on the HR10-250 set them up when I setup the receiver based by zip code. Most of them do not show up in antennaweb.org based on my address:

3-1 KREG (CBS)
6-1 KRMA (actually I think this is PBS - republic plaza)
14-1 KTFDDT
22-1 KFCTDT (FOX) Fort Collins?
24-1 KMAS (Spanish Television)?
50-1 KWHDDT ?

Also anything else I should be expecting? Currently I get KDVR, KWGN, KBDI (all 3 channels) and expect to get KUSA and KCNC with the outdoor antenna.

I just want to make sure when all is said and done I am getting everything I should be getting.

Thanks!

Originally posted by farjo08
4) I have a CM4221 and DB8 along with a winegard pre-amp on loan (if the eqiptment works I can purchase it which is what I am planning on doing). So any suggestions on which one to go with? And any thought to having the pre-amp installed? I know I can always disconnect the power to bypass it so having it mounted on the antenna might save time if I need it due to a poor signal and/or dropouts so I won't have to venture up on the roof myself to do it.
I would think that having the preamp installed, and not using it, could cause some signal loss. Have the installer leave a sizable 'drip loop', so that you can go either way(amp/no amp). However, I don't know how you're going to get up there to change it.

5) Would it be worthwhile to just get a UHF/VHF antenna installed instead? This would allow me to get all the analog locals (I currently get the locals through D* so I don't really need them) as well as set myself up for the future in the event any broadcasts move to VHF as there seems to be some speculation here in the last few posts that could happen.
It's going to happen, so I would use the UHF/VHF antenna.
....jc

Originally posted by farjo08
Also anything else I should be expecting? Currently I get KDVR, KWGN, KBDI (all 3 channels) and expect to get KUSA and KCNC with the outdoor antenna.
Expecting? Given the nature of digital signals in Denver, expect just about anything!

I just want to make sure when all is said and done I am getting everything I should be getting.
With the temporary nature of just about all digital transmitters in Denver, I would be prepared for even more change! At the very least, the location of most of the transmitters will change.
....jc

Originally posted by farjo08
Anyone know what the following channels are and if they can be received in Westminster (without a rotor)? My guide data on the HR10-250 set them up when I setup the receiver based by zip code. Most of them do not show up in antennaweb.org based on my address:

3-1 KREG (CBS)
6-1 KRMA (actually I think this is PBS - republic plaza)
14-1 KTFDDT
22-1 KFCTDT (FOX) Fort Collins?
24-1 KMAS (Spanish Television)?
50-1 KWHDDT ?

Also anything else I should be expecting? Currently I get KDVR, KWGN, KBDI (all 3 channels) and expect to get KUSA and KCNC with the outdoor antenna.

I just want to make sure when all is said and done I am getting everything I should be getting.

Thanks!
KRMA (on frequency 18) broadcasts from Republic Plaza. Once you get an antenna that can pull in KCNC and KUSA, KRMA should come in as well. Now that football is over, KRMA is the majority of my HD viewing.

KTFD (on frequency 15) is Telefutura (Spanish). Dubbed Hollywood movies are their staple. I haven't been able to get their signal for the past few weeks, so I don't know if they are still on the air. No HD.

KWHD (on frequency 46) is a religious channel from Elizabeth. Pretty weak signal, but just happens to be the same orientation as Republic Plaza for me. No HD.

KFCT (on frequency 22) is just a repeater for KDVR, so you're not missing anything.

As if KMGH weren't having enough issues already with their squirrel-powered HD transmitter, anyone else notice their OTA analog signal has turned to garbage as of Saturday or so? Suddenly it's full of ghosts and other artifacts, where the other analog signals from Lookout all continue to come in just fine...

Originally posted by kucharsk
As if KMGH weren't having enough issues already with their squirrel-powered HD transmitter, anyone else notice their OTA analog signal has turned to garbage as of Saturday or so? Suddenly it's full of ghosts and other artifacts, where the other analog signals from Lookout all continue to come in just fine...

You mean there really exists such a thing as KMGH? All this time I though it was a myth - or they just continually broadcasted a black screen with no sound.

I'm watching my PVR-921 recording of "Their Eyes Were Watching God" from ABC-OTA.

It's 4:3? For everyone, or just Denver?

Hey all,

I posted a few months ago, but have been busy finishing the basement. Well the basement is done, the PJ (panny AE700) is mounted and the componants are all hooked up, sans one. I ordered a LG LST-4200 and a Square Shooter antenna, which should be here early next week.

I live on the west side of highlands ranch and (when I put the christmas lights up on the roof) I can see directly to Lookout Mtn and to Downtown.

The guys at work want to come over and watch the NCAA hoops final game, but now I wonder if I am going to get screwed by the CBS thing? How should everything else work out?

Sorry for my n00b knowledge on this OTA stuff, hopefully I'm a quick learner!

Thanks,
Scott

Screwed by what CBS thing?

Originally posted by Sandwedg
The guys at work want to come over and watch the NCAA hoops final game, but now I wonder if I am going to get screwed by the CBS thing? How should everything else work out?
Mr. Santellavision must be back in town! I also don't know what the 'CBS Thing' is. However, you may be able to also get KGWN, CBS in Cheyenne. I'm 40 miles South of HR, and it's one of my strongest signals.
....jc

My apologies. All my "wires" are crossed. Growing up here in Denver, my brain still thinks as of all the network channels as they were when I was a kid, 4=NBC, 7=CBS, 9=ABC. So when I think about KMGH, I think of 7=CBS.

I just realized (we don't watch much network tv anymore) that 7/KMGH was ABC now. So, CBS should be good for NCAA Hoops?

Hello everyone, been a while since I've dropped in here. I've gone without HD for four months now, and since March Madness is approaching I figure it's time to break down and finally get an OTA receiver. I'd like some input regarding the following receivers, I live at 24th and Blake downtown if that matters.

Wally World - US Digital DB-2010 - $200
Circuit City - Pro Brand HD3150 - $230
CC - Sammy T451 - $250
CC - Moto HDT101 - $300

I'm kind of leaning towards the Sammy because it's the only one with DVI, which I've got on my tube, though I didn't notice much difference last time I went from DVI to component. If you think the Wally World one will pick up stations just as well as the others, I'd rather just save the money and get the cheap-o. Thanks for any suggestions.

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
I'm kind of leaning towards the Sammy because it's the only one with DVI, which I've got on my tube, though I didn't notice much difference last time I went from DVI to component.
The LG 4200A is highly recommended by some people on other threads. I have a different LG receiver, and while it doesn't do great from 50 miles, it would work fine from your location. It's going for about $300. Look up Value Electronics. Robert from there frequents the: Which HDTV Receiver Is Best? thread, and he'll answer your questions. It does have DVI.
....jc

Originally posted by Jeremy Tebo
Hello everyone, been a while since I've dropped in here. I've gone without HD for four months now, and since March Madness is approaching I figure it's time to break down and finally get an OTA receiver. I'd like some input regarding the following receivers, I live at 24th and Blake downtown if that matters.

Wally World - US Digital DB-2010 - $200
Circuit City - Pro Brand HD3150 - $230
CC - Sammy T451 - $250
CC - Moto HDT101 - $300

I'm kind of leaning towards the Sammy because it's the only one with DVI, which I've got on my tube, though I didn't notice much difference last time I went from DVI to component. If you think the Wally World one will pick up stations just as well as the others, I'd rather just save the money and get the cheap-o. Thanks for any suggestions. Or just get something like the Sammy T151 for $100 or less on eBay. I don't think you'll notice much if any difference in PQ from a DVI connection. Unless your TV has multiple DVI inputs, I'd keep it open for future use with an upscaling DVI player or HD-DVD which may require it.

Wow, those t151s are really cheap on ebay. Also found a refurbed 351 w/ dvi out for $150, that might be the winner. I'd better get something soon in case it takes a week to ship...

Originally posted by kucharsk
As if KMGH weren't having enough issues already with their squirrel-powered HD transmitter, anyone else notice their OTA analog signal has turned to garbage as of Saturday or so? Suddenly it's full of ghosts and other artifacts, where the other analog signals from Lookout all continue to come in just fine... KMGH's analog signal is fixed now... too bad we can't say the same for their HD signal. :rolleyes:

Well I just had Alpine Electronics here to do a roof install and what a waste.

Without rehashing all my problems, I needed to go outdoors for an HD install so I called them as several users here on the forum seemed to have good results with them.

They came out and tried positioning the antennas (both the CM4221 and DB8) in many locations on the roof and were unable to get any signal. The lookout mountain signals barely registered a signal. I told them that I was able to get a signal in the yard, lower, just not strong enough which is why I wanted the roof install.

They are insisting that I will not get HD signals where I am located most likely due to interference from other homes, multi-path, etc. What I don't understand is why I get lookout just fine in my attic, and can rest the CM4221 and DB8 on the ground on the side of my house and get a signal and they can barely get a signal themselves? I asked them try try different coax and another cable I have used but said it would be of no use - essentially giving up.

Well all I can say is that I am extremely disappointed in them. I just don't understand how I can get a good signal for lookout myself using the same equiptment and they cant!

So now I am back to square one - no republic HD signals. I guess I will still try to mess around with this myself again this weekend as I was able to get KUSA a few weeks ago on the side of my house so maybe I can experiment more and find a good spot. I just can't understand how "professional" installers can't get any signal while I can using the same equiptment.

Well I certainly would not recommend them for any of your needs. Maybe they have new personnel who are not as capable as previous installers - I don't know but their results were poor and they also want to charge me for doing nothing.

It's been posted many times, receiving Low-power OTA DTV is a game of inches. Literally. If you move the antenna 2-3" in any direction the signal will change. So, it may not totally be them as if they don't know that, they might be inches from Nirvana.

Originally posted by farjo08
They came out and tried positioning the antennas (both the CM4221 and DB8) in many locations on the roof and were unable to get any signal. The lookout mountain signals barely registered a signal.

Sorry to hear you're going through so much pain with this! You're not that far away from me, and if anything I figured you'd have better luck since you have more height to work with. The fact that you couldn't even get Lookout from the roof sure sounds like a faulty cable or connector. It's a shame they wouldn't stick around to complete the troubleshooting. Perhaps a call to a manager/owner expressing your frustration is in order?

Originally posted by farjo08
They came out and tried positioning the antennas (both the CM4221 and DB8) in many locations on the roof and were unable to get any signal. The lookout mountain signals barely registered a signal. I told them that I was able to get a signal in the yard, lower, just not strong enough which is why I wanted the roof install.
Farg,
R U in a valley or something? I'm having a bit of a slow day, so I did a few calcs.

Using the center of Lake Arbor as your location:
For Republic Plaza:You are 8.05 miles away; azimuth to: 148°36'36"
For Lookout Mtn:You are 11.99 miles away; azimuth to: 228°54'00"

In other words, with LOS, a coat hanger should work. You must have obstacles, a wiring problem, or just plain bad luck! Also, those antennas are pretty directional, and with an 80° spread, you'll need to 'spit-the-difference', get a rotor, or maybe get an omni-directional antenna.
....jc

Originally posted by santellavision
It's been posted many times, receiving Low-power OTA DTV is a game of inches. Literally. If you move the antenna 2-3" in any direction the signal will change. So, it may not totally be them as if they don't know that, they might be inches from Nirvana.

I would have showed them a spot right where they were - showing them I could get the lookout mountain signals no problem - but they probably would have charged me for the time so I didn't bother.

I do know they are very directional especially the Republic Plaza ones but I can even pick up KDVR with the antenna sitting on my lawn facing the sky!

Originally posted by bikenski
Sorry to hear you're going through so much pain with this! You're not that far away from me, and if anything I figured you'd have better luck since you have more height to work with. The fact that you couldn't even get Lookout from the roof sure sounds like a faulty cable or connector. It's a shame they wouldn't stick around to complete the troubleshooting. Perhaps a call to a manager/owner expressing your frustration is in order?

I have a call into them and I am currently waiting for a call back. I mentioned in my previous response that I can place either antenna on my lawn face up and still pick up KDVR so there is no reason why they couldn't get a signal on that. The most I could get was a 13 - 16 when they were trying to do the mount. I definately think they had cabling problems as I am using the same run into the home they hooked up to with an old / crappy coax I have and still get better signals then they were.

Since I had the morning off I messed around again outside while they were gone and looks like I found a spot near my fence at the back of the house where I can get the republic and lookout stations. What I did for testing was just wedged the antenna on the top of the fence and with the pre-amp I was able to get 2-1, 2-2, 4-1, 6-1, 9-1, 9-2, 12-1, 12-2, 12-3 and 31-1. So I need to do some more wiring this weekend for some interior work I need to do so I am going to run to radioshack and pickup an 8 foot mast and some wall mounts (to use on the fence as well as secure the mast in the ground) and should be able to get a good singal from that. I just need to run the coax along the fence then under a rock garden on the side of my house to my grounding block and hopefully finally everything will be set.

I just found this info concerning the 12/31/06 cutoff date for analog broadcasts. The date has yet to be changed, and the congressional subcommittee hearing on "The Role of Technology in Achieving a Hard Deadline for the DTV Transition:", provided some insite, on the idiots that we have elected. They are, in essence, worried about the cost of set top boxes for all of the analog TV's that will be out there. And, to keep the 12/31/06 date, some bozos actually have proposed a 'down conversion' by the stations so that the analog broadcasts would continue somehow. In the context of the article, it's hard to tell exactly what 'down conversion' really is.
Note: After rereading this a few times, I think that they are just talking about Cable & DBS. So, to spare the cost of STB's for these consumers, they are discussing the possibility of letting the providers stay with analog signals. Aaaarrrgggg!
Broadcasters are averse to headend conversion. Jim Yager, CEO of Barrington Broadcasting, testified that headend conversion would degrade HD broadcast signals for every cable subscriber, including those with hi-def sets.
"Down-conversion at the headend would mean that consumers who invest in HDTV sets would find themselves receiving an identical picture as their neighbors' analog-only TVs," he said.


The article is at:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=2754
....jc

Originally posted by farjo08
ISince I had the morning off I messed around again outside while they were gone and looks like I found a spot near my fence at the back of the house where I can get the republic and lookout stations. What I did for testing was just wedged the antenna on the top of the fence and with the pre-amp I was able to get 2-1, 2-2, 4-1, 6-1, 9-1, 9-2, 12-1, 12-2, 12-3 and 31-1. I did something similar with my setup as you can see in the attached picture. I have the mast bolted to my deck, and the coax runs under my deck to enter the house near the room my TV is in.

Originally posted by oxothuk
I did something similar with my setup as you can see in the attached picture. I have the mast bolted to my deck, and the coax runs under my deck to enter the house near the room my TV is in.

I went to Radio Shack and bought a mast and 8 inch wall mounts. I installed the mounts to the cross beam in my fence then secured the mast to the mount (ultimately I need to also dig a hole to make it more stable).

Unfortunately the few inches back from the fence make a big difference. I am having problems getting a good signal for KCNC. KDVR and KGWN are in the mid to high 80's with KRMA and KUSA in the low to mid 60's but KCNC seems to hover around the low 40's so the signal comes in and out.

When I wedged it on the edge of the fence I was getting low to mid 60's on KCNC as well.

I need to do some wiring work over the weekend (want to run new wires for the 2 new LNB feeds and need to do some internal wiring to hook up some more tuners). I just got a 500 foot spool of quad shield coax and some thomas and betts snap connectors. So I plan on making and running a bunch of new cable. I am not sure of the real quality fo the current coax I have so hopefully that will also make a difference.

I am hoping with the better quality cable I can get a better signal on the current location (I already drilled holes in 3 locations for the top mount to test different areas) - so hopefully with the new quad shield cable I can get one of those locations to give me a strong enough signal on KCNC.

The back/right corner seems to get me the best signals and I only had the antenna about 6 - 8 feet high - it didn't seem to make much of a difference with going higher but that is an option as well.

Hopefully I can get all of this figured out over the weekend and finally be done with it. Since I get CBS West from D* it's not the worst thing not being able to get it as I can get KUSA with this setup so that's a plus.

We'll see how things go over the weekend.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Farg,
R U in a valley or something? I'm having a bit of a slow day, so I did a few calcs.

Using the center of Lake Arbor as your location:
For Republic Plaza:You are 8.05 miles away; azimuth to: 148°36'36"
For Lookout Mtn:You are 11.99 miles away; azimuth to: 228°54'00"

In other words, with LOS, a coat hanger should work. You must have obstacles, a wiring problem, or just plain bad luck! Also, those antennas are pretty directional, and with an 80° spread, you'll need to 'spit-the-difference', get a rotor, or maybe get an omni-directional antenna.
....jc

According to antennaweb.org here are my stats:

165 degrees (KCNC, KUSA, KRMA) - 11.5 miles
214/215 degrees (KDVR, KWGN) - 17.2 miles

I tested with both the CM4221 and DB8. The CM4221 seems to give me a little better results. I don't have any major obstructions between my home and downtown but just haven't hit the sweet spot yet (at least mounted on a mast). I am doing some rewiring this weekend and will be able to test with better coax so hopefully that would also make a difference. When I do find a good spot I get the republic and lookout mountain signals so I don't need a rotor.

As for an omni-directional antenna, if I wanted to go that route, what would you recommend? Keep in mind that it looks like I need to do the mount on a mast secured in the groud / to a fence so that may limit my antenna options.

Hello All!

Since our H-79 and Screenplay 7210 front projection demo units are in, we will be hosting an informal shootout here on Saturday, March 12th. We will also have the Screenplay 7205 and Panasonic AE700 to compare, plus possibly a SIM HT300E.

The shootout will be held at my location here on the extreme north end of Colorado Springs. For those in Denver, I am about 25-30 minutes straight south of Park Meadows mall, right off I-25 across from the Air Force Academy. Anyone interested in attending is welcome to contact me here by PM or via the e-mail address or phone number in my signature line.

We are planning to get together Saturday at 1:30 pm, and go until dinnertime or whenever we run out of steam, whichever comes first.

As always, there will be NO sales pitch, just an informal gathering to play with projectors and have fun.

Sorry about the short notice!

John and Brad

Originally posted by farjo08
According to antennaweb.org here are my stats:

165 degrees (KCNC, KUSA, KRMA) - 11.5 miles
214/215 degrees (KDVR, KWGN) - 17.2 miles
Cool, like I indicated, I used Lake Arbor. You obviously, live North of there.

No major obstructions? Then height is your friend! As far as an 'omni' antenna, I really can't recommend one(no experience there).

Good Luck,
....jc

Sorry you had such bad luck with Alpine, farjo08 :(. I wish I could remember the name of the guy from Alpine who did my install. If I didn't have family coming in from New Zealand this weekend, I'd offer to come out and help you with aiming this weekend.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Sorry you had such bad luck with Alpine, farjo08 :(. I wish I could remember the name of the guy from Alpine who did my install. If I didn't have family coming in from New Zealand this weekend, I'd offer to come out and help you with aiming this weekend.

Hey no problem - it certainly wasn't your fault (unless you were the installed :) ) - just kidding...

But seriously, I appreciate the help and advice from everyone so far and I keep taking baby steps getting to where I need to be so hopefully with some luck this weekend I will have it all figured out.

UPS dropped off my multiswitch, quad shield coax, connectors, stripper/crimper, diplexer, etc. so I am ready for my rewiring project this weekend. Once I get all the DBS stuff taken care of I will run a cable into the house from a grounding block outside for the antenna. Then I will create anoher cable for the outdoor antenna install which hopefully will help a bit with current signal strength and may get me the results I am looking for.

For the most part, I seem to have a little better luck with the CM4221 but in some odd spots the DB8 seems to behave a little better. I just need to try to find the proper location near my fence where I can do a permanent mount of the antenna that will get me all the signals - right now it's hit or miss I get some but not all with KCNC being the biggest challenge of them all.

farjo08:

Curious, how are you receiving 2-2? We discontinued 2-2 back in August of 2004. Had you programmed your receiver and not rescanned?

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN/WB2 Colorado

Originally posted by KWGN-TV
farjo08:

Curious, how are you receiving 2-2? We discontinued 2-2 back in August of 2004. Had you programmed your receiver and not rescanned?

Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN/WB2 Colorado

I actually did a clear and rescan yesterday and it shows up in my guide and i get a signal when tuning to the channel. It does appear to show the exact same programming / format as 2-1 so it's definately not a "different" channel, but my receiver picks it up and treats it as a separate channel from 2-1.

I guess based on what you are saying it should not be a valid channel therefore I could just delete it from the guide since it (for me) is just a duplicate of 2-1.

Originally posted by KWGN-TV
Curious, how are you receiving 2-2? We discontinued 2-2 back in August of 2004. Had you programmed your receiver and not rescanned?

Dave,

I'm not at home right now to verify that it's still the case, but DirecTV continued passing 2-2 as part of their guide data after you discontinued the channel. I know that I had to manually remove it on my system to clear it from the guide.

Originally posted by bikenski
Dave,

I'm not at home right now to verify that it's still the case, but DirecTV continued passing 2-2 as part of their guide data after you discontinued the channel. I know that I had to manually remove it on my system to clear it from the guide.

Actually, I should have mentioned that myself. I have the HR10-250 so the scan is picking up the channel and populating the guide data but apparently it is mapping it to the 2-1 signal as I get the programming on both 2-1 and 2-2 (so it's not just they guide data but appears to be an active channel) but as I mentioned previously the content / format is the same so it's just a dupe of 2-1.

I am not really sure what Direct-TV is doing in their receiver but I do know that we definitely do not have a 2-2 in our transport stream and have not since August of 2004 when we did have a duplicate of 2-1 but with SAP content. We opted to just provide SAP on our 2-1 channel.

Dave Martinez
KWGN/WB2 Colorado

I finally got the antenna mounted today in a location where I am now able to pick up the Republic Plaza stations.

Here is my current setup:

DB8 -> Winegard Chromstar 2000 Pre-Amp -> Grounding Block -> Preamp Power Supply -> Multiswitch -> Wall Plate -> Diplexer -> STB.

The antenna is secured to a mast which is mounted against the inside of my fence using 2 8 inch wall mounts.

I also tried runnning a direct cable using my existing DSS cables but the signal didn't change so I stuck with the multiplexer / diplexer so I didn't have to run any more cables.

This is what I currently get (using HR10-250 signal test):

16 -> 65 Signal Strength (constant) KUSA
18 -> 65 Signal Strength (constant) KRMA
32 -> 71 - 76 Signal Strength (71 Average) KDVR
34 -> 76 - 80 Signal Strength (78 Average) KWGN
35 -> 48 - 54 Signal Strength (51 Average) KCNC
38 -> 78 - 80 Signal Strength (78 Average) KBDI

With my attic antenna I had around 60 - 65 on KDVR and KWGN so they increased a little bit and I couldn't get signals with from the Republic stations.

My questions:

For those with an HR10-250 what signal strengths are you getting and what appears to be the lower limit to get the channels without any audio/video problems?

Is there anything else I could do to try to increase the signal strength, particularly on KCNC? I have a feeling that any adverse weather could cause problems with the signals leading to drop outs. So far I haven't noticed any problems on this channel but the signal is still low compared to the other Republic stations.

Would a higher gain antenna work better? If so any suggestions?

Would a higher gain pre-amp work better? If so any suggestions? It looks like the one I am currently using is rated at 28db UHF so not sure there are any others with more gain.

Would adding and additional amplifier / in-line amplifier help increase the signal? If so any suggestions?

Do I need an attenuator and would that help the signal? My understanding is it helps eliminate noise and prevents signals from being overdriven (I am not having any problems with overdriven signals).

I will see how this works for the next few days, particularly with the snow they are forcasting to see if that affects the strengh and/or causes problems particulary with KCNC.

Thanks to everyone for all their help / suggestions throughout this whole ordeal.

John

Originally posted by farjo08
I finally got the antenna mounted today in a location where I am now able to pick up the Republic Plaza stations.
TaDa! Congrats!

Is there anything else I could do to try to increase the signal strength, particularly on KCNC? I have a feeling that any adverse weather could cause problems with the signals leading to drop outs. So far I haven't noticed any problems on this channel but the signal is still low compared to the other Republic stations.

Would a higher gain antenna work better? If so any suggestions?
A bigger(higher gain) antenna.


Would a higher gain pre-amp work better? If so any suggestions? It looks like the one I am currently using is rated at 28db UHF so not sure there are any others with more gain.
Preamps are probably the most misunderstood RF devices. They will not improve upon the signals that your antenna is receiving. What they will do is boost the signal enough so as to help eliminate the loss of the signal from your antenna to your STB.

So, the 28db preamp that you have now, would probably be enough, without additional amplification, to feed a whole-house video system.

Would adding and additional amplifier / in-line amplifier help increase the signal? If so any suggestions?
Just say No!

Do I need an attenuator and would that help the signal? My understanding is it helps eliminate noise and prevents signals from being overdriven (I am not having any problems with overdriven signals).
No. Most antennuators, attenuate all frequencies. It's like putting brakes on your preamp.
....jc

That's pretty much what I thought. I need to look around to see if I can find a higher gain antenna then the DB8. Not sure if it would better to go with one that is very directional or one that might be less directional (as that might help pick up the signal without having to be pointed in the exact perfect location).

I will do some searching for additonal antennas options and will see what the CDM4228 has for a gain as compared to the DB8.

If anyone has any antenna recommendations that are a higher gain then the DB8 it would be appreciated. I want to try to get something like the DB8 / CM4228 as a traditional yagi, with where I currently have it mounted, would actually extend over the fence into my neighbors yard so I don't really want to do that (although i doubt they would mind and actually right on the other side of the fence in my neighbors yard is the cable / phone box for my neighborhood).

Originally posted by farjo08
My questions:

For those with an HR10-250 what signal strengths are you getting and what appears to be the lower limit to get the channels without any audio/video problems?

John
Check back several pages. I posted my results with an HR10-250 around maybe page 500 or so. Or, you can just view all of my posts...I don't have too many.

My experience is that the HR10-250 starts bugging out at around 40...35 for sure. I'm in a totally different location than you, a lot farther away, but I have had what seems like better success. KCNC is the worst channel for me. In fact, I record shows off D* CBS and Cheyenne CBS, since KCNC is so sporadic.

Mike

Anyone have trouble Sunday morning (app. (:00 am -?) Fox 31’s digital channel this morning? I get zero signal strength. All other local OTA digitals coming in fine…

Hello Ed

9:55 here and 31.1 is working fine for me.

Later
Joe

Last night during the snow everything seemed fine but today things have gotten worse. The signal on CBS has now dropped to about 40 so I am getting a lot of audio / video dropouts on that today - pretty much making it unwatchable.

NBC/PBS have the same signal strength but I am also noticing quite a bit of audio dropouts as well.

I need to see how this goes over the next couple of days but even though I have the signals it looks like it might not be stable enough to really watch :(

I'm still trying to see if there is a better (higher gain) antenna out there but not really finding much. The only antennas I see similar in design (i.e square and not a traditional yagi) are teh CM4228 and SquareShooter. The main reason I want to stick with somethig with a similar design is that with my chosen mount location (best signal area) installing a Yagi will intrude into my neighbors yard which I don't want to do.

I need to do some more research but if anyone has ever tested / compared the DB8 to the CM4288, SuareShooter, or anything similar in design and found better results I would be interested to hear about that.

I don't want to starting buying a few antennas trying to find the best one when I might just have the best signals I will currently get given my location.

Originally posted by farjo08
I need to do some more research but if anyone has ever tested / compared the DB8 to the CM4288, SuareShooter, or anything similar in design and found better results I would be interested to hear about that.

The DB8 may have about the highest gain that you'll find. They are claiming 15.8db. The 4228, according to info that I've found, is only about 12db. Now, the Winegard HD9095P has a gain of between 14 & 16, but it's a yagi design.

Of course, you could try 'antenna stacking', by adding another DB8, that should be good for a few more DB. But, I really think that a TFM(Taller Mast) would be your best bet. Now, if you could get the sucker about 40' in the air, I think that you'd be set! Maybe you could tether a big balloon to anything that you could find(houses, cars, fences), get that sucker 100' into the sky, hang the DB8 from that!;) Wait, wait, a blimp! Heck with the HOA, you could get that puppy hundreds of feet up!

Ooops, I was afraid of this, football withdrawal is starting to set in.

Seriously though, the keys to your success seem to be height, and maybe antenna 'stacking'.
....jc

I might head to radio shack next weekend and get the 10 foot mast (currently using a 5 foot mast but mounted 3 feet above the ground so currently about 8 feet up). When holding the mast higher it didn't seem to provide a better signal but with a longer mast I can keep it stable and see if that helps.

Anyone know some place other then radio shack that sells masts? Possibly longer then 10 feet?

Originally posted by AkaStp
Don't let antennas become obsession. ;)
My sentiments exactly! If all of the broadcasters were transmitting at high power, and everything was 'set', I could see the effort. But, as it is now, you have to ask yourself if it's worth it. I did that a while ago, and now I Just Say No! I could spend lots-o-time & money trying to improve the few signals that I get, but I decided that it simply wasn't worth it. After all, everything's going to change.

Originally posted by farjo08
Anyone know some place other then radio shack that sells masts? Possibly longer then 10 feet?
I have a short tower, and I needed a mast also, but it had to be strong! I found the perfect place: a chain-link fence supplier. They have many sizes and lengths of galvanized posts and rails. These things are strong, and won't rust! I'm pretty sure that they make them longer than 10'.
....jc

farjo08 ~

Just curious where you are located...I can't tell if you have too much antenna or not enuff. Somewhere near Lake Arbor? Just going by a few of the last messages. I can't imagine that if you get a good signal once that you can't get a good signal all the time. Stranger things have happened, tho...

If you are on the roof and no joy, why would a ten foot mast help? Just seems a bit weird to me. I think you need to find a hot spot and aim your antenna. You are using a DB8? (one has to go back and peruse the messages to see what you are running...the pitfalls of being a newbie, I guess) That should be enuff antenna to see Republic Plaza easily from as far as Lake Arbor...unless you are behind a hill, which I can't tell because I have no idea where you are...as I remember Lake Arbor, it sits kinda low just north of the hills, but you could be on the hill...hmmm...still wondering.

Tim

Originally posted by Timay
farjo08 ~

Just curious where you are located...I can't tell if you have too much antenna or not enuff. Somewhere near Lake Arbor? Just going by a few of the last messages. I can't imagine that if you get a good signal once that you can't get a good signal all the time. Stranger things have happened, tho...

If you are on the roof and no joy, why would a ten foot mast help? Just seems a bit weird to me. I think you need to find a hot spot and aim your antenna. You are using a DB8? (one has to go back and peruse the messages to see what you are running...the pitfalls of being a newbie, I guess) That should be enuff antenna to see Republic Plaza easily from as far as Lake Arbor...unless you are behind a hill, which I can't tell because I have no idea where you are...as I remember Lake Arbor, it sits kinda low just north of the hills, but you could be on the hill...hmmm...still wondering.

Tim

I'm North East of Lake Arbor. I'm around Huron and 128th (Just north of the Avaya building on 120th).

My signal for KCNC dropped since originally mounting the antenna. All the other channels have remained pretty much the same - so not sure why. Unless the high winds we had yesterday caused the antenna to move slightly (It should be very secure but you never know). However I would expect that if it did move I would see signal differences on KUSA / KRMA as well.

Yes, I am currently using the DB8 with a Winegard pre-amp.

Originally posted by farjo08
. However I would expect that if it did move I would see signal differences on KUSA / KRMA as well. Keep in mind that your antenna has a narrower beam-width for channel 35 (KCNC) than for the lower-numbered channels (KUSA/KRMA). That may explain why your reception for KCNC is more sensitive.

farjo08,
You've never stated what compass direction you are using for your current reception. Did you start by pointing at 165 degrees (toward KCNC) then slowly move west to try to get KWGN, KDVR, and KBPI w/o losing KCNC?

Both of your antennas are very narrow beamwidth with types (highly directional). A medium to long range Yagi would give you just as much gain, but a much wider beamwidth. Most antennas have beamwidth specs published. Check them before you buy more.

Just for grins, when you go to RS, try their disk shaped, amplified, omni-directional antenna. RS has a great return policy if it doesn't do the job.

Good luck.

Originally posted by CEB II
farjo08,
You've never stated what compass direction you are using for your current reception. Did you start by pointing at 165 degrees (toward KCNC) then slowly move west to try to get KWGN, KDVR, and KBPI w/o losing KCNC?

Both of your antennas are very narrow beamwidth with types (highly directional). A medium to long range Yagi would give you just as much gain, but a much wider beamwidth. Most antennas have beamwidth specs published. Check them before you buy more.

Just for grins, when you go to RS, try their disk shaped, amplified, omni-directional antenna. RS has a great return policy if it doesn't do the job.

Good luck.

The antenna is pretty much pointed downtown. I didn't do anything for the lookout channels as they come in fine no matter where the antenna is or pointing. I started with it aimed downtown and did minor adjustments (up/down & left/right) until I seemed to get the strongest signal on KCNC. Once I did that the other channels seemed to come in fine.

I never thought about the beamwidth issue for channel 35. That would explain why it is more sensitive then the other channels. Just one more thing to consider.

Farjo08,

Also, have you tried aiming the antenna slightly upwards? I wedged a shim between the mast and the lower section of the DB8 to point it a few degrees up from level, and that helped reception back when I was using it.

I took a look at the radio shack antenna but they (Radio Shack) don't seem to publish much technical information on their antennas - nor does the online manual contain much information.

Someone else had recommended trying an omni directional antenna as well. I am assuming with these there is no real pointing, although I am that rotating it to some degree may make a difference.

I was also considering looking at a UHF/VHF antenna as with my current setup (installed this past weekend) I have a 5x8 multiswitch which I have the antenna currently running to so I could also hook up the local analog broadcasts to the other 2 rooms with the D* receivers as well as have 2 additional feeds that I can use to run coax to the third bedroom and the basement for future expansion.

One thing I also noticed with the DB8 is that the analog channels come in pretty bad. There is a lot of ghosting and snow on most of the channels including KDVR which I am surprised as that comes in perfect from my attic.

The other thing about the RS Omnidirectional antenna is that is has a built in preamp that I am not sure if you can bypass. I would rather use the winegad preamp as that has a higher gain then the RS. I think the RS was 20db while the Winegard one is 28db.

Any thoughts on a good UHF/VHF antenna with high gain, particularly for the UNF channels? Since it looks like we will also start to get HD signals in VHF eventually I would need one so since I am still kind of in the testing phases now it might make sense to go that way to prepare for the future as well.

I could always try the RS omni and return it if it doesn't improve the current situation. I need to see if there is a way to bypass the internal amp so I can use the external one I have.

Thanks for the tip. More research to do.

Hey all-

My SquareShooter antenna came Friday and my LG LST-4200 came on Saturday, so I was getting HD Saturday evening!!! (along with everything else withing the last week)

I am using a Panny AE700 projector and (due to Panny S97 dvd w/HDMI) I am using a Gefen HDMI switch with a DVI-HDMI adaptor for the LG.

I couldn't find my compass when I was installing the antenna, but I think I got it mostly pointing towards downtown (we live in western Highlands Ranch).

I get 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 12, & 31. I didn't do a signal strength on every channel yet.

** Occasionally (& more than I would like) the screen goes to "white noise/snow". Is that a signal drop or a problem with the HDMI switch? **

The problem with troubleshooting so much new equipment, is I don't know what to expect and what is the culprit device/situation.

Thanks in advance.

Scott

No insult intended, farjo08 have you tried these locations without the preamp? Most of the time in an area like Denver with many high-powered NTSC stations, the preamp will reduce your signal strength.

Originally posted by santellavision
No insult intended, farjo08 have you tried these locations without the preamp? Most of the time in an area like Denver with many high-powered NTSC stations, the preamp will reduce your signal strength.

Yes I did try the antenna without the preamp and no luck with the republic stations without it.

farjo08: I would try running your antenna feed directly to your primary receiver rather than through your multiswitch. While you won't be able to use the antenna on your other receivers, you may be able to get KCNC with a better signal since it is not losing any strength going through the mulitiswitch and diplexors. After March Madness is over, then you could go back to the setup you have now.

I agree on the pre-amp. In my case, I tried one so I could get KMGH (I live southeast of downtown) and it made things much worse. I found I could not just unplug the power to the mast antenna... I had to actually remove it from the run. In my case, I think the amplifier was being overloaded by the high power FOX 31 analog UHF signal.

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
farjo08: I would try running your antenna feed directly to your primary receiver rather than through your multiswitch. While you won't be able to use the antenna on your other receivers, you may be able to get KCNC with a better signal since it is not losing any strength going through the mulitiswitch and diplexors. After March Madness is over, then you could go back to the setup you have now.

I agree on the pre-amp. In my case, I tried one so I could get KMGH (I live southeast of downtown) and it made things much worse. I found I could not just unplug the power to the mast antenna... I had to actually remove it from the run. In my case, I think the amplifier was being overloaded by the high power FOX 31 analog UHF signal.

That's the first thing that I tried and didn't affect the signal level. I could let it run like that for awhile and see if the dropouts stop but the signal level was the same regardless of how I had it connected to the receiver (i.e. directly, through the multi-switch, etc). Withouth the pre-amp I haven't had much luck with the republic stations which is why I have it hooked up. If I don't I get drop outs all over the place and can't get a picture of KCNC.

Just try the RS Omni with its internal pre-amp and see what happens. You can rotate it on its mast and that may provide small changes to the reception of various channels.

I'd keep the dixplexor out of the line. My personal experience is that it will eat 10 to 20% of your signal.

With your narrow beamwidth antenna pointed at RP, you shouldn't encounter any signal overload problems. The high power signals (Lookout Mtn.) are all out of your beamwidth, so you are lucky to be catching 32 and 34 on the ricochet.

Channel 35 is harder to get than 16 and 18 because the higher the UHF frequency, the more power it takes to transmit a signal the same distance.

Originally posted by CEB II
I'd keep the dixplexor out of the line. My personal experience is that it will eat 10 to 20% of your signal.

I agree. I tried running through a diplexer to minimize cable runs, and had no luck whatsoever. The only way I had success was to use a dedicated long RG6 run for the antenna, with short RG6 ties to the Preamp and Power Supply on each end.

With your narrow beamwidth antenna pointed at RP, you shouldn't encounter any signal overload problems. The high power signals (Lookout Mtn.) are all out of your beamwidth, so you are lucky to be catching 32 and 34 on the ricochet.

The DB8 isn't all that directional actually. One of the reasons I went with it was becuase it allowed me to get both Republic and Lookout/Shaw signals without rotation. I was surprisingly even able to sometimes get KGWN and the 11-x channels from up North, though I was pointed South towards downtown.

Farjo08:

As far as the ghosting on the analog locals, it's almost certainly due to the preamp. KDVR's analog signal in the metro area is way too strong to be boosted by 28db, even if the antenna isn't pointed right at it. Try tuning in analog 33 (KKTU out of Wyoming) during the evening sometime. I could pick that up out the back of the antenna when using the preamp, but couldn't get any sign of it without the amp.

Originally posted by bikenski
I was surprisingly even able to sometimes get KGWN and the 11-x channels from up North, though I was pointed South towards downtown. If you look at the polar gain charts for most antennae, they often have a strong secondary lobe 180 degrees away from the primary lobe.

When I moved into my house, the previous owner had already mounted a traditional VHF/UHF antenna in the garage but exactly backwards. I have to guess he thought it should "point" toward the transmitters like an arrow. It worked well enough that way for him not to notice.

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
My sentiments exactly! If all of the broadcasters were transmitting at high power, and everything was 'set', I could see the effort. But, as it is now, you have to ask yourself if it's worth it. I did that a while ago, and now I Just Say No! I could spend lots-o-time & money trying to improve the few signals that I get, but I decided that it simply wasn't worth it. After all, everything's going to change. True, but not for at least two years, if not longer.

For example, if LCGII goes down in flames who knows how long KCNC and KUSA will stay atop Republic...

Here is a useful web page for comparing "home" type UHF antennas.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Now there are commercial UHF antennas that are much longer and better gain however the price goes up really fast I found out in a big way.

Here is a url for commerical uhf antennas. Made in Canada.

http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/commercial.catv/superzz-uhf.html

High end one can go for as much as $10,000 per channel. I little out of my price range.

OK, so there have been a lot of replies regarding my recent problems. Here is what I see my options as:

1) Cabling. Currently there are 7 splits of cable from the atenna to the TV (antenna to pre-amp, pre-amp to external grounding block, external grounding block to internal pre-amp power supply, pre-amp power supply to multiswitch, multiswicth to wall jack, wall jack to diplexor, diplexor to TV).

All of the cable with is quad shield RG 6/U cabling (Beldin to be exact).

I can reduce the cabling by bypassing the multiswitch / diplexor bringing it down to 5 cables (3 optimally if I could get it working without the pre-amp).

2) Install the antenna higher (same location) as well as try tilting it to point slightly upward (this specifically I had not tried).

3) Try another antenna like the omnidirectional - This would allow me to get VHF as well but overall lower gain then the DB8 / Winegard pre-amp so not necessarily going to make a significant difference. However with RS's return policy I might give this a try at some point just to see.

So seems like 1 and 2 is where I should now focus. As for the cabling, from what I understand it is not wise to run an outdoor cable indoors without grouding thus the grounding block - so the least I could do is with 3 cables as mentioned above most likely looking at 5 with the inclusion of the pre-amp. This eliminates 2 cable runs, allows the pre-amp to be installed closer to the TV (right now it is just before the multiswitch), and bypasses the multiswitcha and diplexor.

One comment on this: At least according to the signal strength, I did not see any noticable difference regarding the number of cable runs, multiswitch, diplexor, direct run, etc. Now maybe that is not an issue in that even though the signal strength does not increase with a more direct connection it still might provide a more stable signal - I don't know.

So I can create a really long cable and connect it directly to my receiver, run it out my back door to the back yard and connect it directly to the atenna so there is just 1 cable. I can also test with the pre-amp - same scenario so there are only 2 cables and at least check signal strength.

In my initial testing I did not notice a difference in signal with my mast higher but again with RS's return policy I can get a 10 foot mast and give it a shot. Perhaps being more stable might help and/or raising the antenna and eliminating the pre-amp could possibly help.

So that's my plan. Possibly this Sunday (will be away on Saturday) or the following weekend I will get a bigger mast and raise the antenna, try connecting it directly to the TV with a single coax and no pre-amp and see what kind of signals I can get. I still will need 3 to 5 cable splits to run everything correctly as that is unavoidable.

Quick questions:

1) If the antenna / mast is grounded on the outside to a grounding spike do I still need the coax running to a grounding block outside and grounded (I believe so but just wanted to double check as that is the split I can think of that might be able to be eliminated)

2) Should my signal strength increase with less splits? Maybe I am relying on the wrong metric for this test as my signal strength seems to remain the same regardless of how many splits I have / how the coax is run - but that doesn't necessarily mean the stability of the signal isn't affected (make sense)?

The ghosting on analog channels is due to the antenna receiving two sets of the same signal at slightly different times. The primary cause of "right side" ghosting is signals being bounced and bent on the way to your antenna (buildings, hills, towers). This is exacerbated by not pointing your antenna at the source, thus your antenna picks up more bounced and angled signals. Ghosting is one of the analog "bugaboos" that DTV is intended to fix.

On your TV screen, pre-amp overload, on analog channels, will look like FM interference (i.e., typically a "herringbone" pattern on the screen. If the herringbone is showing up on analog channels other than 6 to 13, then it is probably pre-amp overload.

Use the grounding block and ground it to the house's main ground near your electric panel (outside). A good block should be transparent to your signal strength.

Shorter cable and fewer splices should decrease signal loss, but you may be at a point where it is so small that it is imperceptible.

Originally posted by CEB II
Use the grounding block and ground it to the house's main ground near your electric panel (outside). A good block should be transparent to your signal strength.

Shorter cable and fewer splices should decrease signal loss, but you may be at a point where it is so small that it is imperceptible.

As for the grounding block that's exactly what I have done. I already had a dual grounding block for my dual LNB dish but installed another dual (for the triple LNB dish) and single (for the antenna). That's what I thought and I like to play it save.

Once I create a single cable that I can run outdoors to test I guess I can see if there is any real difference in signal strength (again according to the receiver - not sure how "accurate" it really is). Since I haven't seen any differneces regardless as to how I set things up I originally concluded it was negligible but you never know.

Originally posted by farjo08
1) If the antenna / mast is grounded on the outside to a grounding spike do I still need the coax running to a grounding block outside and grounded (I believe so but just wanted to double check as that is the split I can think of that might be able to be eliminated)
Absolutely! And, it's also code to tie the ground that your grounding block is connect to, to your house ground. For me, it meant another 120' of #6 wire, buried, all the way around my house!

2) Should my signal strength increase with less splits? Maybe I am relying on the wrong metric for this test as my signal strength seems to remain the same regardless of how many splits I have / how the coax is run - but that doesn't necessarily mean the stability of the signal isn't affected (make sense)?
Spilts will usually decrease signal strength. However, the splits after the insertion of your preamp, will have little or no affect. Look at it this way: You are boosting the signal by 28db(a bunch). In your situation the splits are not decreasing the signal. The stability of your signal directly relates to the signal the antenna is pulling in, not the number of splits. Now, if you weren't using a preamp, I couldn't say that.
....jc

Well a slight change of plans. I pulled the wall plate off in my living room to see if I could snake a new cable up there. Unfortunately there is a junction box so I would need to drill a new hole in the wall and mount a new wall plate. Not that difficult as I did the same thing in one of my bedrooms to hook up the second tuner on one of my receivers. The problem is my TV (Sony 40XBR800) is right in front of it so I would need to get someone over the help move it before I can do anything else (the tv is 300+ pounds not including the stand).

So time and weather permitting what I am thinking of doing this weekend is to pick up a 10 foot mast which will allow me to get another 5 feet of height with the current antenna. Even though I tried holding the current mast higher I could not keep it stable (think holding a 5 foot mast with a DB8 attached to it and I am sure you know what I mean). Hopefully with the additional height, if it at least does not get me a better signal, hopefully it will provide a more stable one.

I am also considering picking up the RS omnidirectional antenna just to give it a try. Since I can easily return it I can test it out to see if it makes any difference or not.

My signal on KCNC is a bit higher today then it was yesterday, but not as high when it was originally installed, but I still get some audio / video dropouts but never completely lose the picture. KUSA/KRMA seem to be OK although I haven't watched them for too long to really evaluate.

So here's hoping to a more productive weekend.

Again, thanks to everyone with their tips and advice and putting up with my numerous questions!

farjo, do you live on the north side of a ridge?

I'm able to pick up 2,4,6,9,15,25,31, and 53 solidly with this setup, and I'm about twice as far from Republic.

Originally posted by oxothuk
farjo, do you live on the north side of a ridge?

I'm able to pick up 2,4,6,9,15,25,31, and 53 solidly with this setup, and I'm about twice as far from Republic.

Silver Sensor with a clamp? Is that sturdy? I was thinking if a Yagi might be a little better. The RS Yagi ($25) seemed to work a little better in my attic then the CM4221 / DB8 although to be honest since I couldn't get the republic stations in the attic I didn't mess with the other antennas too much.

As for the ridge, to be honest I am not 100%. I didn't think so, but I am wondering. I am a little further north east of bilenski who is right by legacy ridge so that is a possibility.

Looking at your picture I was just wondering if I could somehow do a similar mount but can't reall think of any place I could do that with an SS to test. Thinking if there is someway to "attach" that to a fence or similarly clamp it to the edge of the roof or my little overhang out back. Even though it appears small I wouldn't think it would be that sturdy.

Maybe I should also head into my attic and pull out the Yagi since I'm not really using it now and give that a try as well.

I wonder if I am making this more difficult then it should be.

On a related note, is there anywhere locally that sells the silver sensor? I check bestbuy and circuit city's websites but didn't see it.

Too many things to consider. I think I need to sleep on it :)

Originally posted by farjo08 Silver Sensor with a clamp? Is that sturdy? I've had it like that for a few weeks now. And I'm not predicting what might happen if we got a really big wind as sometimes happens. I usually take it in when it snows, but I forgot about it yesterday.

I have a CM4228 behind my house which is my primary antenna for the TV. But I use the SS to serve a PC with a SASEM HDTV tuner.

The Silver Sensor is a great little antenna, but it has nowhere near the gain of the DB8 or 4221. With the Silver Sensor outside I can pick up KUSA weakly, with dropouts, but I can't lock KCNC or KRMA. It's also quite directional and has problems with the mountain stations when aimed downtown.

I currently use mine inside to supplement the Comcast feeds since it can pick up KWGN, KBDI, and KDVR just sitting on the windowsill, and it doesn't attract attention from the HOA nazis.

Originally posted by bikenski
The Silver Sensor is a great little antenna, but it has nowhere near the gain of the DB8 or 4221. With the Silver Sensor outside I can pick up KUSA weakly, with dropouts, but I can't lock KCNC or KRMA. It's also quite directional and has problems with the mountain stations when aimed downtown.

I currently use mine inside to supplement the Comcast feeds since it can pick up KWGN, KBDI, and KDVR just sitting on the windowsill, and it doesn't attract attention from the HOA nazis.

Yea, I remember you showing me that when I came by. I just took the RS 40" Yagi and mast out of my attic. If the weather is nice tomorrow and I get home from work at a decent time I will give it a quick test. Actually if I can stack the two masts (I have 2 5 foot masts from RS) then I can save myself the trouble of getting the 10 foot and create my own to get the antenna up higher. It looks like they can be stacked, just hope it stays stable.

Originally posted by oxothuk
...When I moved into my house, the previous owner had already mounted a traditional VHF/UHF antenna in the garage but exactly backwards. I have to guess he thought it should "point" toward the transmitters like an arrow...

This got me to thinking, since this is how my attic-mounted antenna is oriented. Check out kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html, it says to aim the pointy end towards the transmitters.

Originally posted by Dave6833
This got me to thinking, since this is how my attic-mounted antenna is oriented. Check out kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html, it says to aim the pointy end towards the transmitters.
The info on 'Kyes' is correct. However, there are some VHF antennas that actually come to a point on the back end. They looked something like this: ||||>>>> and these points should face away from the transmitter. It's like the All Band UHF-VHF-FM pictured on Kyes, but the VHF elements are at an angle instead of perpendicular to the length of the antenna.
....jc

ditto what tpw said

Since disconnecting my attic antenna I am actually getting about the same and in some cases better analog reception with just the coax run in my attic! Even 7 comes is really clear.

Anyways, I wanted to pick up an indoor UHF/VHF antenna to throw back up in the attic and connect to my exising cable runs to distribute the analog broadcasts through my home.

So I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations on a good / cheap one (preferably that I wouldn't have to mount - similar to a silver sensor which unfortunately is UHF only). I just wanted to throw something up there for the analogs. Since I get a pretty good signal with just a coax (I think someone even mentioned to me I should be able to pick up the signals with a paper clip where I live) I was hoping someone might have a recommendation. I was thinking about maybe getting a silver sensor anyway even though it is UHF only considering I get 7 very well and 2 and 4 come in but have some snow.

Okay long sroty short I am a DirecTV customer. I have a cable modem for my Internet in Loveland, but do not subscribe to cable. Just for grins I hooked up cable to my Mitsubishi WS-55515. This TV hosts dual ATSC tuners and cable card compatibility, but I do not have a cable card installed.

I had my TV scan the channels and I picked up Ch. 2 - Ch. 69 plus the others in the 90's. I thought cool, lets tinker. So I scroll through the channels and get to 27 which displays PSIP doe 27-6, 27-7, 27-8, 27-9, 27-10, 27-11 & 27-12. Oddly enough the content is the Denver locals, which also appear in their normal Comcast slots for our market. The images are decidedly brighter, more colorful and seem to have higher detail in the 27.x range. My TV also displays signal format and all are listed as 4:3 STD. Does anyone know where these channels are mapped and what I am receiving? As far as I know my TV does not support QAM unless I have a CableCard installed.

~Curious George

Anyone having problems with KDVR-DT on 32 lately (Monday & Tuesday night)? My Echostar 6000 shows good signal on 32, but it no longer maps to 31-1, and I get no video or audio.

I rotated my antenna, and I can get KFCT-DT (a translator for KDVR) on 21. This used to map to 31-1 also, but it isn't doing that now. I do get clean video & audio on 21.

I've tried deleting and re-adding the channels, but it hasn't helped. I suspect they have changed something in the PSIP that my receiver doesn't like.

Mark

Mark,
KDVR on my Dish 921 is now at 32-1.

Originally posted by mbuchana
Anyone having problems with KDVR-DT on 32 lately (Monday & Tuesday night)? My Echostar 6000 shows good signal on 32, but it no longer maps to 31-1, and I get no video or audio.

I rotated my antenna, and I can get KFCT-DT (a translator for KDVR) on 21. This used to map to 31-1 also, but it isn't doing that now. I do get clean video & audio on 21.

I've tried deleting and re-adding the channels, but it hasn't helped. I suspect they have changed something in the PSIP that my receiver doesn't like.

Mark

I watched 24 and the news on Monday as well as the news last night on 31-1 and had no problems. KDVR and KWGN are the two channels I have never had any problems with.

Anyone else noticed that the PSIP information for KTFD (ch. 15) seems to be seriously messed up? My SASEM USB tuner maps it as "443-1". My Samsung SIR-T151 also show "443-1" but can't display the signal. I'm really missing Guerra de los Sexos.

Originally posted by farjo08
So I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations on a good / cheap one (preferably that I wouldn't have to mount - similar to a silver sensor which unfortunately is UHF only).

I don't have any personal experience with it, and typically Terks are overpriced garbage, but their HDTVi antenna (http://www.terk.com/HDTVi.html) may fit the bill for you. It's basically a knock-off of the Silver Sensor with rabbit ears added for VHF. You should be able to find it online for under $25.

Originally posted by slacker9876
Okay long sroty short I am a DirecTV customer. I have a cable modem for my Internet in Loveland, but do not subscribe to cable. Just for grins I hooked up cable to my Mitsubishi WS-55515. This TV hosts dual ATSC tuners and cable card compatibility, but I do not have a cable card installed.

I had my TV scan the channels and I picked up Ch. 2 - Ch. 69 plus the others in the 90's. I thought cool, lets tinker. So I scroll through the channels and get to 27 which displays PSIP doe 27-6, 27-7, 27-8, 27-9, 27-10, 27-11 & 27-12. Oddly enough the content is the Denver locals, which also appear in their normal Comcast slots for our market. The images are decidedly brighter, more colorful and seem to have higher detail in the 27.x range. My TV also displays signal format and all are listed as 4:3 STD. Does anyone know where these channels are mapped and what I am receiving? As far as I know my TV does not support QAM unless I have a CableCard installed.

~Curious George
Very interesting. Keep me informed of what you find out! I, too, have D* and a Comcast cable modem and live in Loveland. I'd be interested to see what channels I can pick up. I'll try experimenting with the cable modem line as well.

I seem to remember reading about cable modem subscribers getting some amoung of digital or analog local stations. I made a mental note to try it out, but forgot. Now, I'm interested again. Have you noticed any analog local channels coming through? That'd be nice to pipe to all of my analog TV's throughout the house instead of playing with an antenna.

I'll let you know what I find!

Originally posted by oxothuk
farjo, do you live on the north side of a ridge?

I'm able to pick up 2,4,6,9,15,25,31, and 53 solidly with this setup, and I'm about twice as far from Republic.
I have a SS too. It works very well for the $20 I spent on it and the fact that I have it in the attic. Once the weather gets better, I'm planning on doing something like you did...clamp/mount it to the roof. Maybe things will improve even more. The only thing I worry about is how to ground it once it's outside. It's really an indoor antenna. Are you grounding it in some way?

Originally posted by mikeaco
Are you grounding it in some way? No. My excuse is that it's temporary, and not located in a high-spot that would attract lightning.

Originally posted by oxothuk
No. My excuse is that it's temporary, and not located in a high-spot that would attract lightning.
Static build up, could be enough, without a grounding block, to conveniently travel down the coax, and fry whatever it's connected to. But, what are the chances?
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Static build up, could be enough, without a grounding block, to conveniently travel down the coax, and fry whatever it's connected to. But, what are the chances?
....jc

That's what home insurance is for! Just make sure to thrown a charred grounding block and ground wire in the ashes before the inspectors come!

Originally posted by bikenski
I don't have any personal experience with it, and typically Terks are overpriced garbage, but their HDTVi antenna (http://www.terk.com/HDTVi.html) may fit the bill for you. It's basically a knock-off of the Silver Sensor with rabbit ears added for VHF. You should be able to find it online for under $25.

I did see that and it looks like something that would match what I am looking for, but like you, I have heard nothing but negatives on the Terk antennas. Finding a person who has had any success with one is like finding a needle in a haystack.

I could always try one and return it if it doesn't work. I am surprisingly getting pretty good analog signals without and antenna so maybe the Terk, despite being garbage, but be just enough to grad on the the other channels and clear some of the snow.

Originally posted by mikeaco
Very interesting. Keep me informed of what you find out! I, too, have D* and a Comcast cable modem and live in Loveland. I'd be interested to see what channels I can pick up. I'll try experimenting with the cable modem line as well.

I seem to remember reading about cable modem subscribers getting some amoung of digital or analog local stations. I made a mental note to try it out, but forgot. Now, I'm interested again. Have you noticed any analog local channels coming through? That'd be nice to pipe to all of my analog TV's throughout the house instead of playing with an antenna.

I'll let you know what I find!

If you are receiving channels through comcast without paying for basic cable service be careful if you ever need to place a service call with them. I orignally used comcast for my internet and before they installed the modem line I was getting the basic channels (the previous owner of my home did cancel their service but apparently comcast never turned it off to the house). When they did the modem, they put a filter in the outside box to prevent any cable signals from coming through. Eventually I added basic cable since they jacked the prices and it was something like $5 more a month (they charged more for the modem without a cable package). Only then did they remove the filter.

I have since switched to DSL and of course comcast came out and disconnected me from the box. But I know others who had similar situations and as soon as a service call was placed comcast realized their mistake and immediately added a filter to the their lines.

Originally posted by farjo08 Eventually I added basic cable since they jacked the prices and it was something like $5 more a month (they charged more for the modem without a cable package). Only then did they remove the filter. For that price it would be silly not to go fully legit. And you can insist that they not filter out the digital tier, since you have a right (per FCC reg) to get the OTA HD channels in the clear as part of basic service. This even includes that ABC channel I hear rumors about.

Originally posted by mikeaco
Very interesting. Keep me informed of what you find out! I, too, have D* and a Comcast cable modem and live in Loveland. I'd be interested to see what channels I can pick up. I'll try experimenting with the cable modem line as well.

I seem to remember reading about cable modem subscribers getting some amoung of digital or analog local stations. I made a mental note to try it out, but forgot. Now, I'm interested again. Have you noticed any analog local channels coming through? That'd be nice to pipe to all of my analog TV's throughout the house instead of playing with an antenna.

I'll let you know what I find!

I have been at the office all day with no time to play, but i looked at the comcast site and I have the "Expanded Basic" package coming though. I still however have no idea why Ch. 27 is broken out into 6 sub channels mirroring the DTV format. Tonight is poker night, but tomorrow I'll check in and post about what i can see when the affiliates are running HD in primetime. Also as a sidebar ... the programming was VERY jittery, but crystal clear.

What type of ATSC tuner do you have? IS it QAM?

Originally posted by farjo08
If you are receiving channels through comcast without paying for basic cable service be careful if you ever need to place a service call with them. I originally used comcast for my internet and before they installed the modem line I was getting the basic channels (the previous owner of my home did cancel their service but apparently comcast never turned it off to the house). When they did the modem, they put a filter in the outside box to prevent any cable signals from coming through. Eventually I added basic cable since they jacked the prices and it was something like $5 more a month (they charged more for the modem without a cable package). Only then did they remove the filter.

I have since switched to DSL and of course comcast came out and disconnected me from the box. But I know others who had similar situations and as soon as a service call was placed comcast realized their mistake and immediately added a filter to the their lines.

If I ever “request service” from Comcast I’ll consider my gun as a better alternative. On the bandwidth side I cannot argue, 450Kbps is plenty for me.

Originally posted by oxothuk
For that price it would be silly not to go fully legit. And you can insist that they not filter out the digital tier, since you have a right (per FCC reg) to get the OTA HD channels in the clear as part of basic service. This even includes that ABC channel I hear rumors about. Really … so if these channels ARE in the 27.x range that may explain why (too put them in the analog spectrum). I understood the HD locals were all 6xx channels, nationally and I did not look today because it says not available in my area. Perhaps they are testing.

Either way … D* will be launching MPEG4 & HD LIL by years end if the top 12 go OK … I can wait … now.

Originally posted by slacker9876
What type of ATSC tuner do you have? IS it QAM?
Dunno...The Sammy TV that I have doesn't have a DTV tuner. The ATSC tuner I have is from the HR10-250, and I not sure the specs.

I'm more interested in the possibility to get the analog channels for my analog TV's that are scattered around the house.

Originally posted by slacker9876
I had my TV scan the channels and I picked up Ch. 2 - Ch. 69 plus the others in the 90's. I thought cool, lets tinker. So I scroll through the channels and get to 27 which displays PSIP doe 27-6, 27-7, 27-8, 27-9, 27-10, 27-11 & 27-12. Oddly enough the content is the Denver locals, which also appear in their normal Comcast slots for our market. The images are decidedly brighter, more colorful and seem to have higher detail in the 27.x range. My TV also displays signal format and all are listed as 4:3 STD. Does anyone know where these channels are mapped and what I am receiving? As far as I know my TV does not support QAM unless I have a CableCard installed.

~Curious George

Comcast is digitally simulcasting the analog locals, and that must be what you are getting. I don't know how you could get them without a QAM tuner, but they should be unencrypted so that probably explains it. For us cable folks, those digital simulcast channels just replace the old analog ones on the same channel.

I'll bet that is it. Digital simulcast ... hadn't thought of that. Odd that that would use the bandwidth from the "analog" spectrum as most digital channels are Ch. 120+ but this is a good explanation. I did verify that my TV is NOT QAM without the cable card ... had some spare time since I got killed at my card game. Well that being said, I hope D* gets SpaceWay done on time and right. I am looking forward to MPEG4.

I'm one of the many who receives the West-coast feed for CBS HD (and Fox for that matter) by exemption. Today, the CBS channel (81) is showing "Channel not Purchased (721)."

I'm assuming that this is due to the NCAA tournament and not some leprechauns in my receiver. Does anyone think this is by design or by accident? I haven't called D* yet, but I'm about to.

Thanks for the input.

I'm guessing it's by design because mine says the same thing. But I don't understand why they are doing it. If I'm eligible to receive the channel, why black it out today?

It was also blacked out during the NFL season under certain circumstances depending on how the Broncos game was being aired locally. Damned if I can remember the convoluted circumstances then or why they would be doing it during the NCAA tournament now. I'm sure it has something to do with the programming of the CBS owned and operated local station (KCNC). I was hoping to see 2 different games in HD using ch. 81 and 4-1.

I called D* and they were not able to give me a reason for the blackout. The only response he would give was "we only support blackout rules, we do not set them". If anyone has a clue or can offer a suggestion, I would love to hear it. TIA.

I turned it on at about 4:55pm and was able to view CBS World News (or whatever). Then it went out again at 5:00.

I got through to D* tier 2 support and played stupid. They tried re-sending down both the East coast and West coast feeds several times. Additionally, I did a hard and soft boot of the receiver (H10). Still no luck.

The CSR's best guess was that the game was blacked-out. Still, the tip-off wasn't listed until 5:25. Why the pre-game was blacked-out too is beyond me (IIRC, they start the blackout at kickoff/tipoff/faceoff). Plus, he didn't know why Gonzaga vs. Winthrop would be blacked out in CO. Nevada vs. Texas is on the regular CBS station. If they say Texas is the reason . . . :mad:

It would've been nice to watch some of the West-coast feeds for more & varied games.

D* is blacking out the games, according to their blackout rules, as they have an NCAA March Madness 2005 Sports Package. They are not going to give away something for free which they can get money for. The same reason they blackout Pro Sports games on the sports channels and East / West coast locals feeds (when out of market).