farjo08,
Do you have a source or a contact that clarifies that it is D* initiating the blackout instead of the network or the NCAA?

Originally posted by slacker9876
Odd that that would use the bandwidth from the "analog" spectrum as most digital channels are Ch. 120+ but this is a good explanation. .

Cable systems can put their digital channels on any part of the systems bandwidth. They don't necessarily put them above a particular analog channel, like in the 120+ area. Smaller cable systems in more rural areas are still using the same bandwidth they always had, lets say a 450MHz system. But can now pack in way more channels because of the digital carriers. A lot of cable systems will drop channels in the 19-23 because land mobile (police, fire, etc) hit in that range and cause a lot of problems for them. They can then use those parts of the channels that don't get interference for digital and PPV ordering, guide data etc.. That's also why you may see gaps in the analog channels. A lot of systems are moving what were once analog channels to the digital tier. To save bandwidth and add more channels at a time. Drop that analog channel and get between 6 and 12 new digital channels depending on modulation and compression used.

Originally posted by farjo08
Well a slight change of plans. I pulled the wall plate off in my living room to see if I could snake a new cable up there. Unfortunately there is a junction box so I would need to drill a new hole in the wall and mount a new wall plate. Not that difficult as I did the same thing in one of my bedrooms to hook up the second tuner on one of my receivers.

Unless the box is FULL, just drill a hole (or holes) INSIDE the box. Since this is low voltage, it isn't even required to be in a box at all.

I am lucky, they did my house w/ mud rings (look like standard boxes from the front but with the back cut off and only ~ 1" deep.

# Matt

Originally posted by oxothuk
For that price it would be silly not to go fully legit. And you can insist that they not filter out the digital tier, since you have a right (per FCC reg) to get the OTA HD channels in the clear as part of basic service. This even includes that ABC channel I hear rumors about.

Good Friday to you! Do you have any pointer to this FCC reg? I was unsuccessful in my search attempts.

Thanks!

(Would be good news - if only we had HD in Longmont on Comcast)

# Matt

Originally posted by mattn6
Good Friday to you! Umm, that's next week!


Check out the Denver Comcast thread. There has been a good bit of discussion there about explaining to the CSRs about getting the HD locals as part of basic service.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=293562

I didn't see a reference to the actual FCC reg, but it essentially prohibits cable operators from requiring anything above their most basic service level as a pre-condition for receiving OTA DTV signals. They CAN charge you for rental of a digital STB, if you need it - but if you have a compatible QAM tuner then you would not need their STB.

And of course they ARE permitted to tie non-broadcast HD channels (such as ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, INHD, etc.) to any preconditions they want.

Last night's NCAA tournament games in HD via OTA KCNC were advertised as being with DD 5.1 sound. However, their signal tripped my Sony receiver to indicate that the sound was DD 6.1 (EX DD 3/2.1). That indication has only come on previously when I played a DVD that had DD EX or DTS EX. What's up with that?

Todays HD games are back to a DD5.1 indication with very poor surround speaker signals.

I have posted my review of the Dish Network DVR-942 online at DBSTalk. I have also posted PDFs of the review so that you can download them to read at your leisure.

CLICK HERE (http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=88)

(Ernie and Tim - this is the new toy that I was telling you about way back when... :))

Originally posted by mattn6
Unless the box is FULL, just drill a hole (or holes) INSIDE the box. Since this is low voltage, it isn't even required to be in a box at all.

I am lucky, they did my house w/ mud rings (look like standard boxes from the front but with the back cut off and only ~ 1" deep.

# Matt

I thought about that - and that is actually what the satellite installers did with one of the lines they ran in my living room. I just don't see how they were able to snake the cable through the basement / floor into the box and the hole (the hole is slightly bigger then the coax). The problem I see (have) is even if I drill a hole in the box how I would feed the cable through the the floor from the basement to the hole. With the other lines I ran I was able to remove the plate and get my hand in a slight bit to either grab the cable or use a hanger to hook onto it and pull it over to the hole where the wall plate is.

If you have any suggestions on the snaking I am all ears. The only thing I could think of would be to tie another coax to the current cable and pull it through that way but I can't really drill the existing hole through the floor to make it bigger without the possibility of hitting the current coax and damaging that.

Originally posted by farjo08
If you have any suggestions on the snaking I am all ears. The only thing I could think of would be to tie another coax to the current cable and pull it through that way but I can't really drill the existing hole through the floor to make it bigger without the possibility of hitting the current coax and damaging that.
Farg,
I think the key here is to get a hole drilled in the bottom plate of the wall. Do you have access under the floor to where the wall is above? If, not it's either punt, or cause some damage. Getting the wire into the box can be a trick, but you never use the wire as a device to 'fish'. Use a 'fish' tape, a coat hanger, and if the hole is big enough, a secret device called a tape measure.

I've fished more sh*t, than I care to talk about. But, if your're determined(most people aren't and say it's too tough), you can succeed. Just keep thinking about ways to do it, and you'll figure it out.

Good Luck,
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Farg,
I think the key here is to get a hole drilled in the bottom plate of the wall. Do you have access under the floor to where the wall is above? If, not it's either punt, or cause some damage. Getting the wire into the box can be a trick, but you never use the wire as a device to 'fish'. Use a 'fish' tape, a coat hanger, and if the hole is big enough, a secret device called a tape measure.

I've fished more sh*t, than I care to talk about. But, if your're determined(most people aren't and say it's too tough), you can succeed. Just keep thinking about ways to do it, and you'll figure it out.

Good Luck,
....jc

My basement is unfinished so I can drill right into the floorboard and run the cable into the wall. I did that with my 2nd runs to two of my bedrooms. For one I just remove the exsiting plate (there was no box) so I was able to use a hanger to get the coax then drilled a hole through the wall next to is and connected it to a new wall plate that I screwed into the wall (drywall). For the other bedroom the plate where the original cable run (from the attic) did not have a box so I did the same thing with the hanger to get the coax then just disconnected the cable run and hooked up the dss feed.

The problem would be fishing for the coax due to the box (cant really get anything in there to fish the coax with). The only thing I could think of would be to add another wall plate and just drill out into the drywall big enough to get a hanger or something in there but small enough then the plate would be so I could screw the plate into the drywall.

My initial priority which I will tackle on Sunday is adding the 5 foot mast from my attic to my existing mast to get the antenna up higher and try out the 40" RS Yagi I have to see how that goes. If all goes well I won't need to run another cable right away but may at some point to clean things up in the basement (since I needed to put the pre-amp before the multiswitch that meant running 2 more coax leads to get the power supply near an outlet. Although I did pick up a piece of plywood last weekend and mounted it between the beams on the wall to secure the multiswitch and "hide" the excess cable behind it to really clean things up - just have two wires running down the opposite wall to the power supply. If I did get a straight run to the living room (bypassing the multiswitch) I would be able to put the power supply in the living room right by the TV and eliminate the two additional cable runs I currently have in the basement.

So first I will raise the antenna and test the Yagi. Once that is all done I can revisit the internal wiring and try to clean things up.

What will I whine about today? The D* blackout on CBS-HD west coast feed (Ch. 81) has been lifted.

I got a chance to mess with the antenna a bit this evening. I added the 2 5 foot masts together giving me another 5 feet to work with as well as tried the RS Yagi. The Yagi worked well for Lookout Mountain stations but was all over the place for the Republic ones so looks like that is no good for what I am doing.

So I tried the DB8 at full mast but it didn't seem to help much. The strange thing is LOWER seems to give me better signals then HIGHER (at least where I currently have it mounted). Only problem is I can't go below the fence line as that starts to block signals and no good.

So what I ended up with tonight was I mounted the DB8 about a half foot lower then the peak of the mast as that seemed to give me a good spot with consistant signals. I now has low 60's on KCNC (compared to a max of 50's I had but more constant in the mid 40's). While that improved it seemed to sacrifice some of the other signals. KUSA is about the same but KRMA dropped a little as did KWGN, KDVR and KBDI. All of my signals now are in the 60's (low to high) with constant signals.

I'll see how this goes but might mess with it a bit more tomorrow if I'm up to it. I didn't try to CM4221 so not sure if that would do me any better (in some cases it seemed to work better then the DB8 - but it's more like hit or miss). I'll also keep an eye on things and see if I have any dropouts. The morning after it snowed KCNC was really bad and some minor problems with KUSA but KUSA seemed pretty good since then. Actually KCNC, even with the low singals, was behaving better. Watching about an hour of KCNC last Wendesday I had 2 drop outs for about 1 - 2 seconds. I need to see how KWGN and KDVR behave now that I have a slightly lower signal on those.

Hopefully everything will be stable enough as this seems to be about the best I can do. I could try more areas in the yard to search for a better signal but as far as places to actually mount an antenna I'm pretty much running out of options.

Here's to hoping for the best!

I will say this, I am not a basketball fan, but the NCAA in HD looked Amazing!

Agreed, except for the compression artifacts around the players and the interlacing. I could see the thin lines on the court shimmering due to interlacing.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
What will I whine about today? The D* blackout on CBS-HD west coast feed (Ch. 81) has been lifted.

I think you jinxed it. Channel 81 was blacked out for me at 1:00.

Me too. I'm off to posting purgatory....

Originally posted by farjo08
...If you have any suggestions on the snaking I am all ears...

If you need to, drill another hole in the junction box. Attach a small weight to a string (a short screw would work) and drop it down the wall. Drill your hole from the bottom and use a coat hanger to pull the string through the hole. If you bend a small hook on the end of the hanger and "twist" it inside the wall, you'll eventually hook the string. Once the string is through you can attach it to the coax and pull that into the box.

Originally posted by farjo08
I got a chance to mess with the antenna a bit this evening. I added the 2 5 foot masts together giving me another 5 feet to work with as well as tried the RS Yagi. The Yagi worked well for Lookout Mountain stations but was all over the place for the Republic ones so looks like that is no good for what I am doing.

So I tried the DB8 at full mast but it didn't seem to help much. The strange thing is LOWER seems to give me better signals then HIGHER (at least where I currently have it mounted). Only problem is I can't go below the fence line as that starts to block signals and no good.


Farj - I've been following your antenna saga here, and want to chime in here, based on what I had happen to me last year. If you're getting a better signal with your antenna lower on the mast, it's likely that you're receiving the signal reflected off of something. I used to have my satellite dish installed below my antenna on my roof, with my antenna positioned about 4 feet above my roof line. That was the sweet spot. When I moved my dish off the roof last summer, I lost a good amount of my OTA signal. Turns out I was picking up the signal reflected off of my dish. Moving the antenna 6 feet higher solved my issue.

Definitely weird stuff that we have to deal with here... :)

Originally posted by farjo08
...If you have any suggestions on the snaking I am all ears.

Another thing to do (possibly) is to remove the existing box and enlarge the hole to be a double wide. They do sell "old install" double wide mud rings at Home Depot. I have used these to add on to this house last fall.

The trick is to get a long enough metal jigsaw blade (or one sided hacksaw) in between the box and the stud. Then you cut off the 2 nails that hold the existing box and pull the box out toward you. The replacement mud ring comes w/ a template that you then cut out to match.

I have used the replacement "old install" boxes and mud rings many times. They have "wings" that swing into place after insertion and compress against the back of the drywall.

Good luck!

# Matt

Originally posted by farjo08
I will say this, I am not a basketball fan, but the NCAA in HD looked Amazing!

Yes, it was a pleasure to watch the games in HD but CBS' coverage was pathetic. Visually stunning a majority of the time, but just brutal on how they carried the games (I just love all the numerous and repetitive commercials -- sigh -- and the ineptitude in not switching to closer games in progress. I miss the days when ESPN had the 1st and 2nd Round Games years ago). My new house in Highlands Ranch won't close until 4/21 so I watched the games on my Brother-In-Law's Comcast Feed instead of an OTA feed.

Originally posted by Dave6833
If you need to, drill another hole in the junction box. Attach a small weight to a string (a short screw would work) and drop it down the wall. Drill your hole from the bottom and use a coat hanger to pull the string through the hole. If you bend a small hook on the end of the hanger and "twist" it inside the wall, you'll eventually hook the string. Once the string is through you can attach it to the coax and pull that into the box.
Yea, it's amazing all of the sh*t that you can think of to 'fish' with. Fishing line with a 'sinker' tied to it works good also. Just send it down, move it up/down/around, and if you have a big enough hole in the plate, you can usually hit it.
My all time fav, is a simple tape measure. For situations where you are trying to send a line horizontally, like thru a floor joist bay. A heavy duty tape, will usually stay 'straight' for over 10', where a 'fish' tape will want to curl up.
....jc

I thought CBS did a pretty good job of switching to competitive games. I also liked the fact that local analog usually carried a different game than local digital. KCNC/CBS apparently were trying to give us our HD money's worth and in the process provided access to more games.

BTW, the DD 6.1 trick came back again Saturday afternoon.

I'm getting my Denver local digital channels using a DISH 921 and rooftop antenna.

I'm having issues with the signal strength jumping up and down between 70 and 0 and then no picture. This happens on a variety of channels broadcasting from a variety of locations at different times of day and different dates. Sometimes all channels come in fine. Other times, I will lose Channel 2, 9, 7, or 31 (their digital channels) in this same manner.

My antenna is a rooftop yaggi type with a combiner to a DB4 so I can get channel 7. No preamp or amp. Don't know the gain.

.
I'm told this could be "multipathing," but what baffles me is that things work well for a few days, then crap out again. Random times. Random channels. Random weather conditions. Also, I've tried an inline attenuator to dumb down signal strength in case one OTA was overwhelming another.

Could it be the fact that I'm connecting two antennas? Is it the combiner?

I didn't install it or the DISH and don't plan to get on the roof. Unfortunately, the guy who installed the DISH system knows less about antennas than my eight year old niece. And, who knows if the problem is reproducible when he’s here anyhow.

So, does anyone out there you know any good antenna experts here in the Denver area?

Please respond to my email address erh1117@eazy.net


Ed Harris

I had the same thing happen to a Hughes E86 D* receiver. It would happen on the OTA and D* HD channels. Great signal strength then randomly 0. And every once in a while the channel would not come back.

It turned out to be the receiver (from SoundTrak) and once it was replaced, the problem went away.

Unfortunately, they replaced the 921 last week with a new unit for this same issue.

Ed,

I have a 921 and get the same thing too. It's not your box. It seems to happen when the signal strength is low.

Well, chalk up another major 921 bug! One observation though: on Channel 9 and 2 at least, I have strong signals sometimes. Does signal strength vary on our locals at different (random) times of day?

Have you been able to do anything to work around the issue or do you just grin and bear it?

Ed,
I'm way up in Genesee behind some hills, so getting anything from downtown is really a challenge! I'm always just on the fringe of acceptable reception. And yes, it varies everyday.
One day a channel may be a solid 75, then the next it's going 70-to-0. I think the weather has more to do with it than anything else.

Last night through this morning I had a similar problem with KDVR. I watched the news and all was well but around 11:00 PM or so I was flipping through the channels and the signal was all over the place - I couldn't even get a picture. First time that has ever happened. This morning it was still all over the place so I thought I would have to mess with the antenna again this evening but it's been a solid 68 all evening.

Watched 24 and no problems at all. I definately think this instance had to do with the weather. I plan on finding my final resting place for the antenna next weekend but aside from some dropouts mostly on KCNC I have never had this problem - let's hope it doesn't reoccur.

Originally posted by slacker9876
If I ever “request service” from Comcast I’ll consider my gun as a better alternative. On the bandwidth side I cannot argue, 450Kbps is plenty for me.

Really … so if these channels ARE in the 27.x range that may explain why (too put them in the analog spectrum). I understood the HD locals were all 6xx channels, nationally and I did not look today because it says not available in my area. Perhaps they are testing.

Either way … D* will be launching MPEG4 & HD LIL by years end if the top 12 go OK … I can wait … now.

The cable companies take the OTA signals & re-modulate them as they please. Here in Phoenix, they've taken all the OTA DTV signals (save UPN) & redistributed them RANDOMLY between 78.1 & 100.25. It's really wierd. With a QAM tuner, you can get COX Cables' Community access channels & PPV previews in addition to SD & HD OTA content.

It is the law that with the cable company's most basic service, they must provide unencrypted OTA retransmission of local DTV if they're carrying the analog counterpart.

Originally posted by erh1117
My antenna is a rooftop Yagi type with a combiner to a DB4 so I can get channel 7. No preamp or amp. Don't know the gain.

I'd look at the combiner. Lot's of folks try to use a reversed, standard coax RF splitter. That often doesn't work well. The best cheap one I'm aware of is the RadioShack hybrid combiner/splitter. Looks cheap, cost about $5, but doesn't adversely affect the antennas signals.

Another thing w/ 2 antennas is that you may be receiving a strong signal for the same channel on both antennas. With an analog signal, you'd get a very severe ghosting problem. With a digital signal, you may see the kind of instability you are observing or you may lose the signal altogether. You need to baseline each antenna individually (remove the combiner and use a barrel connector from the antenna lead to the coax going to the TV) to determine the reception strength of each of the local DTV channels on each antenna.

If you have a strong reading for a given DTV channel on both antennas, you will likely have reception instability or no reception. The only simple fix is to turn (re-aim) one of the antennas enough that the duplicate strong signal is significantly reduced w/o losing the channels you want to receive with that antenna. Yes it is a tricky business and it doesn't always work out.

I'm watching Blind Justice (PVR 921 delayed). What a mess. Was staring at the end of a cell phone commercial while the sound went on normally for 5-10 minutes. Are they paying any attention to what they are sending out?

Finally ABC switched to the SD feed before jumping back to HD. Sound and picture have been in and out.

Guess I'll go see if the Comcast people saw the same thing....

:( I also have a PVR 921 and live about 22 miles north of Denver, last week I had a particular problem with my OTA reception, I lost all my digital signals on Friday, then they came back on Saturday with the exception on KCNC(CBS) feed. I've haven't had any problems with my OTA till now. Is anyone having similar issues that live north of Denver? I've got a Yagi antenna mounted in my attic pointed toward down town, I've already sent a message to Channel 4 KCNC who have replied stating they aren't having problems with there Transmitter. Confusing problem!!!

I'm not getting the games tonight on CBS 4 OTA... I've got a 77% to 79% signal but no picture... NBC and FOX are coming in fine.

I can't get channel 4 in HD, but I am getting the tourney in HD on KGWN-HD out of Cheyenne. Looks very good. Once again, DirecTv is blacking out channel 81 for some reason.

...no KCNC for me. D* Ch. 81 was blacked out. I was able to get KGWN-HD as well. Picture was good, some breakups (snow related, perhaps). Audio (as is always the case with them) was messed up. It sounded OK, but the discrete channels were not being decoded properly.

Mike

KGWN's audio has been "not right" since the beginning. It sounds - OK - but when you compare it to sound from another source (ch 81 for example) it's not even close to being good.

Why would KCNC not be broadcasting the tourney in HD??? I can't understand that.... Luckly I have grandfathered waivers so I was getting D* 81 and 82 (so I was able to watch both games in HD). Still I know my national feeds are going away here in a couple week so I'd like to understand what's going on before I'm left out to dry with no HD when I really want it!

I just joined the group, so maybe this has been addressed before, if it has, then sorry to bring it up again. I live in HR, Quebec and 470 overlooking The Links at HR GC. I have a small OTA and can only get Fox 31 and sometimes Ch 2. I live in a rental and can't mount anything to a wall on my patio or in the attic. I signed up for the waiver for ch 81 over my dish but I don't know how long that will take. Any suggestions on type and where to position an OTA HD so I can get CBS and ABC in addition to FOX. I would like to watch the Final Four, Masters and NBA playoffs in HD. NBC has no HD sports to speak of besides the Oly so that's not an immediate need. Thanks to anyone who can help me out.

Originally posted by Knepster
I just joined the group, so maybe this has been addressed before, if it has, then sorry to bring it up again. I live in HR, Quebec and 470 overlooking The Links at HR GC. I have a small OTA and can only get Fox 31 and sometimes Ch 2. I live in a rental and can't mount anything to a wall on my patio or in the attic. I signed up for the waiver for ch 81 over my dish but I don't know how long that will take. Any suggestions on type and where to position an OTA HD so I can get CBS and ABC in addition to FOX. I would like to watch the Final Four, Masters and NBA playoffs in HD. NBC has no HD sports to speak of besides the Oly so that's not an immediate need. Thanks to anyone who can help me out.

Without an outdoor antenna your not going to get much. I live at Wildcat and University and get a 70% signal with an outdoor UHF pointed right at downtown. I tried an indoor and got nothing... ABC is so low power you're probably not going to get that at all anyway. I get a real low power signal that comes in and out. Oh, and for some reason see my above post, CBS hasn't been broadcasting March Madness.

Also, you won't get waivers...you're way within the "grade B signal" range that determines that.

Originally posted by hoopsbwc34
Why would KCNC not be broadcasting the tourney in HD??? I can't understand that.... But they are, at least everytime I've tuned in. I saw a few minutes of the Kentucky-Utah game last night and it was definitely HD.

I think what folks are complaining about here is the D* (non) carriage of CBS HD, not the KCNC DTV signal.

Knepster,

You can put an outdoor OTA antenna on your controlled deck. The FCC says you can. Maybe not mounted to a wall, but what about a pole and and a stand. You might want to consider doing that or look into comcast cable for your Network HD.

OK, so I think I am done with my antenna woes. Last Sunday when I was messing around one of my neighbors mentioned he had a CM 4228 and a CM 7775 pre-amp that I could have if I wanted.

So today I tried that out and got much better results then with the CM 4221 / DB8 and Winegard pre-amp.

KCNC is still the worst and I can't seem to manage a singal greater then 60 - 62 but now (with KCNC at 60-62) All KUSA, KDVR, KWGN and KBDI are all coming in in the 80's with KRMA in the low 70's.

The best I did previously was 60's to low 70's across the board. I am not sure if the antenna or pre-amp is what is making a difference but the combo is working better then anything I tried previously.

At this point, I don't think I am going to do any better with KCNC so I am going to leave it. I can get a higher signal on KRMA but at the sacrifice of KCNC so the low 70's on KRMA is fine for me (plus I don't think I would really be watching it anyways).

I may still mess around with the internal wiring a little bit by bypassing the multiswitch / diplexer to see if that helps a bit but it didn't seem to make a difference in the past.

So now, my final question, what's the best way to ground the antenna? I have a copper grounding rod and wire and from what I can tell I just need to connect the ground wire to the mast / braket and run the rod in the ground. The antenna doesn't have anywhere to "Attach" the ground wire so I just wanted to check how this should be properly grounded so I can finish up the outdoor work and hopefully enjoy my HDTV!

Thanks again to EVERYONE who has helped!

Originally posted by farjo08
So now, my final question, what's the best way to ground the antenna? I have a copper grounding rod and wire and from what I can tell I just need to connect the ground wire to the mast / braket and run the rod in the ground. The antenna doesn't have anywhere to "Attach" the ground wire so I just wanted to check how this should be properly grounded so I can finish up the outdoor work and hopefully enjoy my HDTV!
Farg,
To do it properly, 3 things need to be interconnected to your grounding system:

The antenna mast(not the antenna itself)...
The grounding block...
The house ground...

So, put the ground rod near the antenna. Connect a #6 copper wire to the mast, run it to the grounding rod, and connect it there, run it to the grounding block, and connect it there, lastly, run the wire to your house ground and connect it there.

The purpose of connecting everything together is to prevent 'ground loops'. A good diagram is at: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html

My system was a pain to ground. I've got 2 grounding rods. 1 at my tower, and 1 near the wire entry to the house(that's connected to the grounding blocks). These are connected with #6 wire, and then another 120' of wire was connected to the 2nd grounding rod, and ran around the house to the electric service entrance.

Good Luck!
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired

The purpose of connecting everything together is to prevent 'ground loops'.


Not to mention that allowing a charge to build up on the mast may have a similar effect with lightning as those pink plastic flamingos have to attract tornados to trailer parks!:)

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
Not to mention that allowing a charge to build up on the mast may have a similar effect with lightning as those pink plastic flamingos have to attract tornados to trailer parks!:)
This very fact led to a 2 year study by University of Colorado in conjunction with the National Weather Service. The study involved 4 counties in Eastern Colorado, and the results were disappointing.

Grounding the Pink Flamingos, did not decrease their ability to attract tornadoes.:p
....jc

Yeah, but there was a rise in the cancer rate for those flamingos that were tossed around!

And let's not forget... there was actually a 10% reduction in cancer among flamingos living on Lookout Mountain.

If the July hearing for the tower on Lookout Mtn. produces further delays in construction, what impact will a hard cut-off date of 12/2006 have on the existing towers?
Can the LCG stations replace their analog transmitters with digital and be done with it? If that is the case, it would seem to be the most cost efficient strategy for the LCG stations. They would not have to spend millions on new buildings and facilities let alone a new tower and all the environmental mitigation that goes with it.
Would our friends at CARE have any recourse at all in the face of a federally mandated switch to digital broadcasting?

Originally posted by Iwanthd
If the July hearing for the tower on Lookout Mtn. produces further delays in construction, what impact will a hard cut-off date of 12/2006 have on the existing towers?
Can the LCG stations replace their analog transmitters with digital and be done with it? If that is the case, it would seem to be the most cost efficient strategy for the LCG stations. They would not have to spend millions on new buildings and facilities let alone a new tower and all the environmental mitigation that goes with it.
Would our friends at CARE have any recourse at all in the face of a federally mandated switch to digital broadcasting? The 12/2006 hard cutoff is pretty unlikely, IMHO. Some congressmen are throwing that out just to get the discussion moving. But there will be a shutoff of analog SOMEDAY.

I don't think our friends at sCARE would have much recourse if the analog shutoff arrives and there's no new tower. They're going to tell the entire Denver area to go without broadcast TV because of some specious argument that digital transmission is somehow different from analog on the same frequency? On the same towers that have been there for 50 years?

And yes, that would be the best of all possible outcomes as far as the stations are concerned.

The argument is whether a ATSC broadcast is a different use (not sure if use is the exact word) than a NTSC broadcast.

Towers are non-conforming to current zoning and current uses are grandfathered in. If TV Broadcasting is a single use then they could probably switch, but if ATSC and NTSC are different uses then there is a zoning violation.

In addition I thought some new equipment would be needed with ATSC and thus some building permits.

----

Personally I think we will see ATSC only from Lookout and NTSC elsewhere (Republic?) - but sCARE will protest even that in court.

I believe we were told that the only changes would be inside the building. But I'm not sure if that really is correct. As I don't think they can use an existing antenna tuned for channel 4 and then send channel 35 out of it.

I hope they can use their existing 'omni-directional' antennas as with the new proposed 'directional antennas', they send almost no signal back toward Lookout Mt. Right now, I can't get a whiff of KWGN to the west of Lookout.

Originally posted by ADent
The argument is whether a ATSC broadcast is a different use (not sure if use is the exact word) than a NTSC broadcast.

Towers are non-conforming to current zoning and current uses are grandfathered in. If TV Broadcasting is a single use then they could probably switch, but if ATSC and NTSC are different uses then there is a zoning violation.

In addition I thought some new equipment would be needed with ATSC and thus some building permits.

----

Personally I think we will see ATSC only from Lookout and NTSC elsewhere (Republic?) - but sCARE will protest even that in court. I just think the public (and their elected representatives) will lose patience with sCARE if this drags out all the way to analog shutoff. Because then they will be standing in the way of getting ANY broadcast TV. And only channel 4 will need an antenna switchout, since the others elected to keep their analog assignments (or, in the case of KWGN, is already on the air).

I just think the public (and their elected representatives) will lose patience with sCARE if this drags out all the way to analog shutoff. Because then they will be standing in the way of getting ANY broadcast TV. And only channel 4 will need an antenna switchout, since the others elected to keep their analog assignments (or, in the case of KWGN, is already on the air).

You may have hit on KCNC's plan B if Judge Jackson kills LCG II, just notify the FCC that they will go back to the VHF frequency and do the NTSC to ATSC switch inside the building on analog cutoff day. Let's see scare try to take TV off the air on analog cutoff day... it's not happening. Scare will have shot themselves in the foot then, no reduction in towers on Lookout except for KRMA (they opposed that of course), no directional antennas, and no monitoring paid for by LCG.

With the expected analog cutoff day of January 1, 2009, that is less than 3.5 years after the LCG II lawsuit decision in Jeffco. That is barely enough time to dream up LCG III, and go through the process once again. I don't think the LCG will vote to incur the expense of an LCG III proposal and instead will do plan B, switchover to ATSC using current antennas.

Don

Originally posted by donyoop
...With the expected analog cutoff day of January 1, 2009, that is less than 3.5 years after the LCG II lawsuit decision in Jeffco.
Where did you get this date? Within the last 60 days, our elected officials, were still grappling with the 12/31/06 date.
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Where did you get this date? Within the last 60 days, our elected officials, were still grappling with the 12/31/06 date.

I think the 1/2009 date got bantered around, but definately does not exist in any FCC ruling or law.

The 12/31/06 date is only good in a market where 85% of the viewing audience can receive a DTV signal. Ya right, try getting that penetration number in the Denver DMA by 12/31/06 :D

Since I haven't read the law, I don't know if that means the viewers have to be able to receive all of the digital stations that they used to receive as analog, or if only one DTV station counts. If only one, the KWGN station may cause problems :)

In any event, I do not expect 85% penetration in any market by the end of next year, including mine (and all of our stations are on the air).

Depends on how you count that "85%". If you say that anybody recieving locals via cable or LIL DBS counts - there are LOTS of places pretty close - after all - all the cable / DBS providers need to do is start getting the ATSC source instead of the broadcast NTSC.

Originally posted by Scooper
Depends on how you count that "85%". If you say that anybody recieving locals via cable or LIL DBS counts - there are LOTS of places pretty close - after all - all the cable / DBS providers need to do is start getting the ATSC source instead of the broadcast NTSC.

Ya, I forgot that Congress/FCC wants to cook the books and count those users who can "see" the DTV signal, even if it is via a round-about method, i.e., cable, DBS.

But, for that TV that isn't wired for cable, or sat, oops, don't workie!!

I have to TVs, one downstairs in my "media" room and the other upstairs. It is just me and the dog, so I don't need two different programs on at the same time on these two TVs. I can "ship" the 480i output of the STB to the upstairs TV, as well as any othe other 480i video that I have downstairs (Knox 16x16 router).

I do need another SIR-T165 though. It is coming to the point where I need to tape two HD programs at the same time, but only have one tuner (two D-VHS decks). I keep watching e-bay. Screwed up yesterday though. Bidding closed while I was at work and stuck in a meeting.

But, that is me. Many others aren't as lucky and will have standalone TVs become worthless without a cheap tuner.

I don't see any way Congress can now make the 12/31/2006 date practically or logistically. Joe Barton is just blowing hot air, setting up for the compromise whatever that is. The FCC was floating the 2009 date as being more realistic, which is what I am hoping for. To me, the 2009 date is optimistic at best. Congress can't agree on anything, so I would be surprised if Congress makes a decision, or just decides to make a decision, by 2009. There is always an election next year so they can't make any mistakes or decisions.

Originally posted by donyoop
...Congress can't agree on anything, so I would be surprised if Congress makes a decision, or just decides to make a decision, by 2009. There is always an election next year so they can't make any mistakes or decisions.
Congress hasn't made a decision in recent history. They mearly vote as they are paid to vote.

The bottom line is that a decision won't be made until corporate America wants it made and decides how it's to be made.
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Congress hasn't made a decision in recent history. Why should they, when the courts are going to step in and redo whatever they decide anyway.

Closer to home the Jeffco commisioners put a lot of work into those hearings and took a lot of grief from their constituents. And for what, just to tee things up for Judge Jackson - who elected him king, anyway?

Now now boys, yah have to know how to work the system....and LCG knows. They're more than willing to wait for analog shutoff and then convert. It's cheaper for the stations and the scare bastards get just what they deserve. A win-win scenario for the stations. The FCC's not gonna make them do anything more, and scare will be run out of town if they try to hold the entire Front Range hostage to their nonsense (after analog is shutoff).

We all lose of course but I think we've all figured that out by now.

Originally posted by Geof
We all lose of course but I think we've all figured that out by now.

Yeah, but I'll get some strange satisfaction from driving up I-70 in 2015, looking to the right, and seeing all of the towers still there, knowing that they could've had 4 or so fewer up there if they weren't so stubborn :rolleyes: .

Did anyone watch Lost on Wednedsay night? I'm hoping that one of the 7 people that can actually receive KMGH's signal OTA will peruse this thread and let me know if they experienced audio and video dropouts during the broadcast. I'm trying to determine if it's an ABC issue or a Comcast issue.

I watched it in my "Canadian home" (out of Seattle) and didn't notice any dropouts. Can't help with the local abc affiliate, though.

I'm getting KMGH on Comcast and I was experiencing some audio dropouts (where the sound goes mute and then returns gradually to normal volume) and a couple video dropouts as well. The performance was above average considering where it has been in the past, where there were whole parts of the screen that were messed up (I know, real technical, eh?). I guess I am getting used to the poor performance with them.

Can the FCC do anything to help the broadcasters in Denver to get the Tower Built? The other question is would ABC hear in town be willing to move there antennae to where NBC, PBS and CBS have there towers? (I think it is the Qwest Building). I wish I could get ABC in HD. Living in bumfield sucks because I can't get ABC. I would also like to see UPN get with the HD program as well. As for the deadline, I would like to see them shut it off in December, 2006. Then the people in Colorado will rebel and make sCare go away. It will also make people in general take HD serious and stop posturing on the purchase of an HDTV.

Originally posted by paintit77
The other question is would ABC hear in town be willing to move there antennae to where NBC, PBS and CBS have there towers? Republic Plaza is where NBC, PBS, and CBS are located.

Several of the old hands on the forum have talked to KMGH about moving there, and got a resounding NO. The station manager claimed it would cost $400,000 and that it would be a waste because they would be getting the new Lookout Mountain tower 'real soon'. All that was before KMGH reached a carriage agreement with Comcast, making them care even less about their OTA signal.

You weren't planning to watch the Super Bowl next year were you?

The Station Owners are just doing what comes naturally to broadcasters (and let's be fair here, every corporation worth owning stock in)...playing the system. What irks most folks, like me, is the sense that a communally shared resource (spectrum) is vulnerable to manipulation at both ends of the supply chain. Locally by Scare and their ilk, and nationally, by the robber barons of the 20th century: Big Media.

Since the Feds are not going to buy digital tuners for anyone, analog shutoff is vulnerable to political realities. Ma and Pa Kettle aren't going to buy a digital set by such and such a date just because Washington says so. And they will scream bloody murder to their senator until he fixes things with FCC. Quietly, but effectively.

Until we reach that magic market tipping point, there just is not much economic incentive to drive the political machine at a faster rate. Locally or nationally. Thus ... multi-year local OTA forum threads.

What we need for the digital revolution is an analog King George lll for folks to get mad at.


And on a practical note...maybe some of you video pros out there know... is there anyplace in the Metro area that carries cable building supplies (starquad mic cable, techflex), that sort of thing?

--Jason

Jason - there hasn't been any new news on the transition for some time now. If you are interested, the trread in the hardware section that has had the most recent discussions is:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525491

Basically, we are just expecting a date to be decided by congress, with opinions all over the place and each has its own separate logic flow.

Sorry I can't help with the video-tech cable stuff info, though.

I live over by the hospitals on 18th st. and everytime a helicopter flys over I lose my reception till the copter has past. My signal is low to begin with as mentioned before but is the problem with a disruption in the signal or are the helicopters actually cause it with instments or something to that affect?

Originally posted by quin
I live over by the hospitals on 18th st. and everytime a helicopter flys over I lose my reception till the copter has past. My signal is low to begin with as mentioned before but is the problem with a disruption in the signal or are the helicopters actually cause it with instments or something to that affect?

Mulipath? I do not know how close the chopper gets, but the skin makes for great reflective material. Depending on the generation of your receiver, it will be more prone to multipath. Fifth generation DTV receivers are supposed to better reject said problem.

Do you have a highly directional antenna, or a more omni directional?

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Originally posted by quin
I live over by the hospitals on 18th st. and everytime a helicopter flys over I lose my reception till the copter has past. My signal is low to begin with as mentioned before but is the problem with a disruption in the signal or are the helicopters actually cause it with instments or something to that affect?
The blades of a helicopter generate copious amounts of static electricity. A traveling 'electrical disturbance' as it were. Emergency services(police, fire, etc.) in some cities, have asked that news helicopters fly at a distance from the source of some events, to avoid interfering with communications.
So, I would guess that helicopters could easily interfere with OTA broadcasts. Especially, low power broadcasts.

Now, other than stinger missiles or maybe a deck mounted 50 cal, I think that you are going to have to just 'deal with it'.:p
....jc

Originally posted by mrvideo
Do you have a highly directional antenna, or a more omni directional?


I have a Winegard Sensar II that i got with Voom. It says it's a bi-directional antenna but all the towers are to the west(ish) of my place so I guess you could consider it directional?

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired The blades of a helicopter generate copious amounts of static electricity. A traveling 'electrical disturbance' as it were. Emergency services(police, fire, etc.) in some cities, have asked that news helicopters fly at a distance from the source of some events, to avoid interfering with communications.

This was the most probable explaination I thought it could be. I'll ask my neighbors if they wouldn't have anything hiding in their houses that could help me fix this ;)


And sorry for the atrocious grammer from the last post. It was my last post before i went to sleep and you can tell I needed it :p

quin
I also have VOOM. I love it. How is it working for you? I hope they make it and bring out the DVR.

Hello .. KUSA !?!?!

We've been on daylight savings time for 3 days now -- pls change the STT in your PSIP data to be the correct time! You are still one hour behind.

Today, as you all have experienced, we are having a huge wind storm in the metro area. So, when I came home tonight, I guess it should not have been a great surprise that I have miserable to nonexistent OTA DTV reception form all the Denver locals.

Anyone share that pain?

Originally posted by erh1117
Anyone share that pain?
No, but due to the snow, I had to climb my tower to clear the snow from 2 different dishes. Normally, it's an easy job, but it seems that the wind decided to pick up just as I was leaving the house. I questioned my sanity, and decided that w/o TV and the internet, what else could I do? I climbed the tower.
....jc

Originally posted by erh1117
Today, as you all have experienced, we are having a huge wind storm in the metro area. So, when I came home tonight, I guess it should not have been a great surprise that I have miserable to nonexistent OTA DTV reception form all the Denver locals.

Anyone share that pain?

Days like today make me glad my antenna is in the atic.

(hears loud gust of wind)

Maybe I should go check on my DBS dish...

My 12' tall rooftop mast is anchored by four strong, highly tensioned guy wires, it isn't even wiggling!

Originally posted by paintit77
Can the FCC do anything to help the broadcasters in Denver to get the Tower Built?

It is currently a zoning issue. How are the feds going to override JeffCo's zoning?

I only can see a judge doing the dirty deed and the FCC doesn't sue over zoning (they may file motions to support a LCG lawsuit).

The FCC could levy heavy fines on the stations so they get moving, but they would probably have to move to another mountain outside of JeffCo if they were in a hurry to put up an ATSC antenna.

At this point anything other than LCG (or heavy fines) is likely to put the on air date of ATSC antenna past or close to the analog cutoff date, since it could take years in the courts before the current LCG plan is dead.

This OTA thing should gather some steam in 2006 and 2007 as the FCC deadline for ATSC tuners in all TVs and VCRs/DVD Recorders take affect.

Originally posted by ADent
It is currently a zoning issue. How are the feds going to override JeffCo's zoning?

I only can see a judge doing the dirty deed and the FCC doesn't sue over zoning (they may file motions to support a LCG lawsuit). Though they never have, the FCC could override local zoning regulations in the public interest.

They've done something similar in the past for cellular phone towers, and of course they did a blanket supercession of city and HOA regulations for dishes smaller than 1m in diameter...

Hey Jetlag, Ist a good day to be at 390 heading 090.

...and it is far, far better to not have to work on such a spectacular day! I can't believe it after yesterdays foul weather. I guess everyone will be able to get their OTA now (or at least until the leaves arrive).

We were watching LOST tonight, 04-06-05 and experienced audio and video dropouts. Ended up switching to the KMGH SD channel to watch the remainder of the episode. Same thing happened on last weeks episode of LOST.

We are currently watching EYES on KMGH HD and are not experiencing any audio or video dropouts. Our conclusion is it must be something to do with the LOST HD broadcast. We receive KMGH HD, 7-1 via DirectTV using a Hughes E86 STB, Silver Sensor indoor table top OTH antenna, and a signal strength of 58. One of the lucky few who receives KMGH in Denver with a OTH antenna. We live in Lakewood around Alameda and Garrison.

It is a KMGH or network thing. Both over OTH & comcast were breaking up. They seem to ALWAYS screw Lost up.

Make sure to send an email to KMGH. They have kept us informed about issues they've worked in the past.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/denvers7/222549/detail.html

KMGH??????
What's a KMGH??????
Isn't that the new station whose lawyers promised would be on the air from Lookout by last August??????

:mad:

Glad to see you're still alive and sassy, John
Too bad you missed FPOTP (First Post on the Page)

Lost seemed to settle down 1/2 way through the show. Alias was fine. I have Eyes recorded too, but haven't watched it yet (I'm giving it one more chance).

At least I know the Lost problem wasn't only me. Wow, I was exhausted after watching that Episode.

BTW, if any of you are absolutely dying to receive KMGH OTA as I do at my house (with excellent signal strength no less!), it will be available for sale in the near future (my house that is, not KMGH)! I'll even throw in the roof mounted CM 4228 for free along with the remote controlled rotator! What a deal! ;-)

The resolution of KMGH may be going down soon anyway; ABC is renewing a push to roll out their 24-hour news channel, "ABC News Now" on digital subchannels across the country.

So with KUSA already reducing quality and perhaps KMGH the next to go, can the other networks be far behind?

KMGH will replace their simulcast SD channel with the 24 hour news channel if they decide to pick it up. That's the reason they've always had 17-2 in the mix anyways - so we'd never know what 720p looks like at 15-16 MB/s.

I live in southwest denver would anybody know about the spanish channels, my reciever gets the programming info but no image.

Originally posted by vic24djrz
I live in southwest denver would anybody know about the spanish channels, my reciever gets the programming info but no image. I'm pretty sure that KTFD (Telefutura) is the only Spanish channel in Denver which is currently on the air with a DTV signal. They broadcast on Channel 15. Unfortunately, their PSIP data has been messed up for a couple of months now so that it gets remapped as channel "443-1". My Samsung SIR-T151 will have nothing to do with such nonsense and gives exactly the symptoms you describe - a solid lock indicator on the LED but a "No Signal" message with the on-screen display.

My SASEM HD receiver is more forgiving, so I could watch it on my PC if I wanted to - Guerra de los Sexos is always good for a few laughs.

Originally posted by RonAuger
Glad to see you're still alive and sassy, John
Too bad you missed FPOTP (First Post on the Page)
I'll take another stab at the top of the page.

Actually, I have been busy watching my Alma Mater (Geof's too) play hockey. The University of Denver made it to the finals of the of the NCAA hockey championship today for the second straight year. Going for "back-to-back" championships on Saturday night.

Even got to watch the games today in HD.
:D

(Don't ask, if I tell you I have to kill you)

So John, you've been taking cryptic lessons from Ken H?
Give us a clue c'mon...

A quick vacation to your Canadian vacation home?
;)

Originally posted by JMartinko


(Don't ask, if I tell you I have to kill you)

Uh...Uh.....I was on a business trip....yeh, that's the ticket....it was a business trip. "Just happened to be in a location where ESPN2 HD was available". No laws were broken and no animals were harmed.
:rolleyes:


Darn, still didn't get the top of a new page.......

...a wink is as good as a nudge to a blind man! Say no more, SAY NO MORE!!!

BTW John, what are those huge, round, flying-saucer shaped things out in your yard? Are they either solar energy or rain collectors? Or are you searching for life on other planets?

Also, FWIW, photos of my "stealth" dishes will be featured on the Chat Monday night with Charlie Ergen on Dishnetwork! My 15 minutes of fame, all for being an anal techno-geek who likes solid satellite reception! :-)

Originally posted by Jetlag
...a wink is as good as a nudge to a blind man! Say no more, SAY NO MORE!!!

BTW John, what are those huge, round, flying-saucer shaped things out in your yard? Are they either solar energy or rain collectors? Or are you searching for life on other planets?


I use the 12 footer and a fairly expensive 'commercial' receiver to search for 'signs of intelligent life in the universe". It's amazing what you find. The rest of the time the 12 footer is used to collect snowfall just in case we don't get enough on the ground.
:D

Originally posted by Jetlag
Also, FWIW, photos of my "stealth" dishes will be featured on the Chat Monday night with Charlie Ergen on Dishnetwork! My 15 minutes of fame, all for being an anal techno-geek who likes solid satellite reception! :-)

That's very cool, Tim! How'd you manage that?

Originally posted by markdl
That's very cool, Tim! How'd you manage that?

Agreed, how did you pull that one off. Just exactly who is the woman with Charlie in the pictures you obviously have????

Did you send him the pictures of your setup, or did he see them on AVS and contact you???

They had a deal on the email newsletter asking for any E* related anecdotes. I sent them a digital photo with a short explanation and one of the producers contacted me. Viola!

(OK, OK, I'm actually dating his daughter) ;-)

Well it looks like VOOM is KA-BOOM. I can't go back to D* they really suck. How many people have Comcast and do you like it? What is the deal with the free HD-DVR? Does it really work and how is the picture quality? Any help you guys can throw my way will be appreciated. It would be nice if Comcast would get Universal HD. I like it on VOOM as well as TNT-HD with the NBA finals coming. This is the saddest day for me. I really liked VOOM.

Originally posted by JMartinko
I use the 12 footer and a fairly expensive 'commercial' receiver to search for 'signs of intelligent life in the universe". It's amazing what you find. The rest of the time the 12 footer is used to collect snowfall just in case we don't get enough on the ground.
:D

There is lots of good stuff available. I have a 10' and a 12', both of which have commercial receivers on them.

BTW, I don't consider sports good stuff :D

Before there were some technical changes, I used to watch a show from across the northern border (those who live near the border can still get it OTA). The show is called The Eleventh Hour. The show would cause those damn parents groups, religious do-gooders and some members of Congress, ears to turn real red. Not as bad as Deadwood, but swearing is used quite often. There is intelligence across the border. I just wish some of it would filter south.

One of these days I hope to correct the technical glitch and start watching intelligence again.

[Damn, top-of-page post :)]

All those attempts and someone from "Wisconsin" nabs the top of the page spot???? How does this happen to the Denver thread???? What are we doing wrong Denver folks???? No full power OTA HD and we still can't even get the top of the page in our own thread. Maybe we just aren't living "right".
:o

I don’t think we are.

Maybe we should all move to Wisconsin! They seem to be living a pretty good life up there, what with their cheese, and top of the page posts and all.

Originally posted by Symbios
Maybe we should all move to Wisconsin! They seem to be living a pretty good life up there, what with their cheese, and top of the page posts and all. Don't forget the beer :)

And the bratwurst!

Too bad the Badgers didn't get out of the first round of the tourny (yes, I am a Badger).

They are a young team, dcpoppy. Frozen Four in Milwaukee next year - Badgers will be there! Bucky hoops did us proud this year, though!
(I'm a Badger too!)

{appologies for keeping this OT}
;)

Did anybody happen to catch the 10:00pm news on KUSA Friday night? I had it on in the background as some friends and I were talking, then I noticed that one scene had the typical blue borders they usually use for 4:3 material they acquire elsewhere... except the border itself was sliding left and right all over the place. Certainly nothing to call and complain about, but quite humorous to see in action. I much prefer amusing technical glitches rather than serious ones like pixelation or showing an HD show in SD. We all laughed.

Originally posted by mknoebel
They are a young team, dcpoppy. Frozen Four in Milwaukee next year - Badgers will be there! Bucky hoops did us proud this year, though!
(I'm a Badger too!)

{appologies for keeping this OT}
;)

Baadgers? Ve don need no stinkin' Baadgers......

Sorry guys, just couldn't resist.

Go DU!

:D :D

What he said--
{appologies for keeping this OT}, but I am still upset that I missed the top of the page.

Woooo Whooooooooo!

Denver University Pioneers
Back to Back NCAA Hockey National Champions

Go DU!
:D :D :D

{appologies for keeping this OT}

Originally posted by paintit77
How many people have Comcast and do you like it? What is the deal with the free HD-DVR? Does it really work and how is the picture quality?

You're asking this question in the wrong thread. You should go here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=293562

The HD-DVR is great, although a lot of people across the country have many bugs. I don't have many of the problems discussed in the 6412 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=464986). My biggest complaint is the limited storage (120 GB, about 15 hrs of HD). The picture quality is fine - people with more discerning eyes may notice a difference compared to live TV, but I do not.

My biggest complaint is with Comcast's HD content. I want more, now. We only recently got the last HD local (KWGN/WB2), but they've been available in HD OTA for quite a while. TNT finally starts rolling out on Comcast on 4/24 (hopefully here in Denver on that date). Universal and ESPN2 HD could be this year, too (depends on which other threads you read). Maybe UPN, although I'm not sure if KTVD even broadcasts anything in HD OTA.

Originally posted by gakon
Maybe UPN, although I'm not sure if KTVD even broadcasts anything in HD OTA. Nope, they're not even on the air with a DTV signal, much less HD. Still waiting for the LCG2 tower to be built.

FYI: 102 days until the LCGII hearing.

Ahh, only 102 days left until we find out we have to wait ten more years.

"Ahh, only 102 days left until we find out we have to wait ten more years."

No doubt! That equates to 3752 days until we finally have full power OTA HD in Denver.

Originally posted by paintit77
"Ahh, only 102 days left until we find out we have to wait ten more years."

No doubt! That equates to 3752 days until we finally have full power OTA HD in Denver.

Ahhh, it's always refreshing to see how the new folks are always so much more "optimistic" about OTA here and Denver than some of us 'old timers'. Must be that youth and enthusiasm combination that hasn't been stepped upon, burned, hit by a truck, blown up, squashed, crushed and smashed into bits by the antics from(S)CARE and the lack of effort by the LCG stations like it has for the rest of us. The good news is that at least none of us 'old timers' have grown angry, disillusioned, and bitter from all of this.

If only it would be in "ten years". But hey, the KMGH lawyers assured us they would be on the air in full power from Lookout last September, and lawyers wouldn't lie about a thing like that would they???

Here's a intriguing thought, maybe it would help if the stations in the LCG gave a rats' a$$ about getting on the air.
:D :D

Anyone having trouble receiving KDVR-DT? Seems like since the storm, I've been having break-ups. All other channels are fine.

It's coming in just fine here. Maybe your antenna got tweeked a bit during the storm.

I'm watching 24 on KDVR in HD and it's looking fine here.

Watched 24 tonight and it came in just fine here for the entire program.

Unbelievable. I was kind of hoping everyone had to watch 24 in SD last night!

I thought my antenna had gotten pushed around too, but why would it only affect KDVR? I guess I'll go up and fiddle with it when all the snow has melted off my roof (I sense a funny video comming if I go up and do it now!).

In many cases, viewing the reception on 31 will lend some insight to the reception on 32 that your STB or tuner card has to contend with. Being close in frequency and point of origin makes their reception characteristics similar (in many cases). UHF tends to have a more pronounced 'picket fence' characteristic that gives good reception over one path, and completely different reception on a close parallel path when dealing with reflecting mountains and buildings. Other elements that may be in your system (such as a preamp) will sometimes also have negative impact on only certain stations.

Originally posted by Symbios
I thought my antenna had gotten pushed around too, but why would it only affect KDVR? I guess I'll go up and fiddle with it when all the snow has melted off my roof (I sense a funny video comming if I go up and do it now!). I have my main antenna pointed downtown at Republic plaza. With that orientation I can ALWAYS get KWGN but only about half the time can I get KDVR.

Slightly lower power together with multipath is what I've always assumed to be the problem. I have a an older antenna in my garage which picks up KDVR and KWGN unfailingly, but not the Republic stations; I just flip an A/B switch when I'm having difficulties with the main antenna.

Originally posted by Symbios
Anyone having trouble receiving KDVR-DT? Seems like since the storm, I've been having break-ups. All other channels are fine.

I've been unable to reliably pull in KDVR-DT since the storm. My antenna is in the attic. I surmise it has something to do with snow on the roof, though as late as last night it still wasn't working and there wasn't much snow left. We'll see what happens tonight.

Originally posted by Symbios
Maybe we should all move to Wisconsin! They seem to be living a pretty good life up there, what with their cheese, and top of the page posts and all.

And you are forgetting OTA that works :D

Originally posted by JMartinko
{appologies for keeping this OT}, but I am still upset that I missed the top of the page.

But it isn't hard to figure out that the posting will be the top. If the last post ends in 00, 20, 40, 60 or 80, the next posting will be on the top. In this particular case, I wasn't even looking. It just came out that way :)

Originally posted by Symbios
I guess I'll go up and fiddle with it when all the snow has melted off my roof (I sense a funny video comming if I go up and do it now!).

Oh, that's right... you guys got sh!t upon by a bunch of late winter snow, while we here in Wisconsin were having sunshine and temps in the 70s. :D

Originally posted by JMartinko
Here's a intriguing thought, maybe it would help if the stations in the LCG gave a rats' a$$ about getting on the air.
:D :D

Hummmm... if it walks like a "bitter" duck and quacks like a "bitter" duck, I'll bet that it is a "bitter" duck.
:D :D :D

But wait, it can't be... he says that he isn't bitter :)

Originally posted by mrvideo
Oh, that's right... you guys got sh!t upon by a bunch of late winter snow, while we here in Wisconsin were having sunshine and temps in the 70s. :D

Even though we got a bit of snow on Sunday, we also have leaves and flowers already popping. That's the beauty of Colorado - blizzard one day, shorts and sunshine two days later! :cool:

I haven't had any problems with KDVR either. The only channel I had a problem with during the storm was KCNC but I have a lower signal on that then all the other channels so that was expected. That is fine now.

However I did have an unusual problem with WB this evening. During Smallville the picture would get jittery from time to time. The audio was perfect but it was almost like it was skipping frames or jumping from interlaced to non-interlaced. Will keep an eye on it but never had that happen before.

That was NOT your problem. That was a network/KWGN problem. It was on both OTA & Comacst.

Well, now KDVR is fine in the morning. But around 4 PM, things go to hell, I have no clue what's going on.

Farjo08,

I noticed that odd little glitch as well, must have been their problem.

Whoa, simultaneous posting. That's way better than being at the top of the page!

Ah, who am I kidding...

Nuggets vs. Houston Rockets on ESPN-HD Saturday 4/16 at 5:30.
Oh how things have changed. Nugs have won more games in the last week than the Rocks are likely to win in the next month.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
Nuggets vs. Houston Rockets on ESPN-HD Saturday 4/16 at 5:30.
Oh how things have changed. Nugs have won more games in the last week than the Rocks are likely to win in the next month.

I made a prediction two years ago and I'm sticking with it. Start planning the parade.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2383608&highlight=Nuggets#post2383608

Don

Well, I have done absolutely nothing and I can now receive KDVR just fine.
I guess the lesson here is, when something goes wrong, “do nothing�. …I think.

This thread sure has been quiet! Come on guys, where are the D* waiver and OTA antenna questions? Or the angry S.C.A.R.E rants? Or what about the KMGH lawyer jokes?

Quiet? Of course, since it's procrastinators tax night and there are bigger problems to deal with.

Not a heck of a lot to say, these days. Jetlag's dishes are now famous. Maybe we can get Charlie to show the picture of KMGH's transmitter on to of their building on the next Charlie Chat. You DO remember that one, don't you? :)

I'm planning on running a 6th and 7th coax into my basement from outside here today...the 6th line will be a 4th line from my satellites (getting a new Dish Network dish prototype here in the next couple of weeks), and the other line will run around to my utility room and act as a 2nd house distribution line from my theater.

Other than that, I'm just sitting back doing a close comparison between the PQ of the local stations received OTA vs the local stations received via Comcast (both with my new MyHD cards). So far, there isn't nearly the difference between the two that there used to be. It used to be night and day on KUSA, but not anymore since they started the weather subchannel. I hate to say it, but I'm actually pretty impressed with the Comcast side, in that I can't tell much difference between the two sides.

Not much to report up north, I have had no equipment problems and everything I have tried to watch has come in good(which isn't much lately, I just bought a new motorcycle)

Originally posted by markdl
...doing a close comparison between the PQ of the local stations received OTA vs the local stations received via Comcast (both with my new MyHD cards). So far, there isn't nearly the difference between the two that there used to be. It used to be night and day on KUSA, but not anymore since they started the weather subchannel. I hate to say it, but I'm actually pretty impressed with the Comcast side, in that I can't tell much difference between the two sides.


Good to know. Since I can't get KMGH OTA, I'm facing another MNF season of SD via E* and an SD SB to boot. Couple that with the fact that the wife's premium channel preference is Starz and CM, for which E* won't carry the HD versions, and I'm seriously considering a jump back (I'm holding my nose so I don't gag here) to Comcast. I don't know who's intransigence is worse, KMGH or E*, but they both have me so PO'd that I'm likely to do something I swore I'd never do.

Anyone know when Comcast will be turning on HD in Fort Collins ?

I just ordered my HD TV. I recently switched to Comcast with a 6412 (dual HD tuner) DVR. After being a Directv customer ever since the company went live, I finally switched to Comcast. I still prefer the idea of satellite more, but to my knowledge the Denver networks will not be available via satellite for quite sometime. I am not willing to buy a $1,000 HD Tivo (I have had a DTivo forever and thought it was great) when I can get DVR for $9.95 per month from Comcast that will do HD. So, If I want a DVR, and HD in Fort Collins (for ABC, CBS, and NBC) Comcast is my only choice.

I'm just wondering when HD will be a reality with Comcast in Fort Collins ? I assume that it will include the Denver locals (ABC, CBS, NBC) ?

Speaking of the 9NEWS weather channel on 9-02, I have to admit that last Sunday, we ended up watching that channel frequently as local channel coverage of this year's "Spring Storm" was poor at best. Maybe NBC is correct and there is a market for this type of channel, although the goal should still be to minimize its impact on HDTV broadcasts on channel 9-01.

Hey, top of the page, how about that!

Anyone know when Comcast will be turning on HD in Fort Collins ?

My guess is that we will see the Denver HD locals on DirecTv before us Northern Coloradoans will see HD from Comcast. The word is that Denver will be in the second wave of cities that will have their locals offered in HD - possibly towards the end of the year.
Comcast?? Ugggggh. No soup for us.

My most recent news from Comcast was that HD would go active by the end of May in Fort Collins (for what it's worth). They told me that Longmont just was turned on recently, and that Fort Collins would be next. According to DirecTV's press releases, Denver was not in their top 20 markets, and was not a part of the added HD markets during the next two years.

Maybe I missed something in their press release, but to me they were saying no HD Denver locals during the next two years (I hope I am wrong about this).

Has something changed since then.

I would switch back to Directv in an instant if they brought Denver locals up to HD (although they still need an MPEG4 DVR). In general, analog channels are ver unimpressive via cable companies.

Originally posted by dhenriks
...According to DirecTV's press releases, Denver was not in their top 20 markets, and was not a part of the added HD markets during the next two years.
I've only seen D* announce the 1st 12 markets(almost in DMA order). Have there been other announcements?

I would find it hard to believe that Denver HD LIL will not happen until 2007.
....jc

Originally posted by dhenriks
In general, analog channels are ver unimpressive via cable companies. [/B]

Comcast plans on being full digital by the end of the year. Local SD channels already went digital about a month ago.

Not in Fort Collins, all the Denver locals are still analog.

That would be great if everything would go digital.

The simple economics of new HD markets via satellite are purely driven by population / revenue in the new markets.

Denver is not in the top 20 cities for population based upon recent census data.

Therefore, I doubt that it will be in the 20 first markets for any satellite company, which to me makes it seem like it's probably a couple years off based on bandwidth constraints, and the plans for new satellite launches.

If I was in a top market and could get HD via satellite it would be a no brainer over cable. But, for the rest of us I believe that cable may have the edge.

I'm not sure of the exact number off the top of my head, but I do know that Denver is in the 2nd group of 12 - which would put it in the top 24. And with the sad state of affairs in our OTA-HD, it's probably one of the more logical choices to get them up on the bird.

Originally posted by dhenriks
The simple economics of new HD markets via satellite are purely driven by population / revenue in the new markets.

Denver is not in the top 20 cities for population based upon recent census data.
It's not the population of the city, but the population of the DMA. In that ranking, I believe that Denver is the 18th largest DMA.

....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
It's not the population of the city, but the population of the DMA. In that ranking, I believe that Denver is the 18th largest DMA.
Let me correct myself here! It's not the population at all, it's the number of homes with televisions. I stand corrected.

....jc

From the local thread index on this site, Denver is ranked as the 18th DMA. I would hope that we would be in the second group of LIL from D* later this fall.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=453241

On another topic, has anyone figured out the arcane rules for D* to show NBA games on channels 95 and 96? The Nuggets v Memphis shows up on the guide for both of these channels tonight but it is not on. Altitude claims that they "make the game available" to all satellite and cable companies. I know in other markets where the local RSN is Fox Sports they will show the local team on 95 or 96 occasionally. I would think the HD Altitude feed would be a natural for this treatment, especially because it is not owned by a cable company.
This makes my head hurt.

E* is showing that Nuggets game tonight as an HD PPV. Did Altitude get set up to do HD? I thought that was a year away.

They have been offering the HD feed for almost the whole season for home games. I believe that Comcast subscribers have been able to view the games on one of the INHD channels. Comcast would preempt their programming to show the game in the local market.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
They have been offering the HD feed for almost the whole season for home games. I believe that Comcast subscribers have been able to view the games on one of the INHD channels. Comcast would preempt their programming to show the game in the local market.

Another reason for me to consider dumping E* and going (ugh!) back to Comcast.

Denver is DMA 18 according to Nielsen (http://www.nielsenmedia.com/DMAs.html). I would think once there is any announcement from D* beyond the first 12 markets, Denver would be in there.

BTW, The satellite (the first of four) that will deliver HD LiL to those first 12 markets is on its way to a launch at the equator at the end of this month by SeaLaunch (http://www.sea-launch.com/current_launch.htm)

Update: Spaceway satellite launch is scheduled for 1:30AM next Tuesday April 26th

Well, I think my set-top box hates me. Everything was fine with KDVR up until 7:00PM tonight, and then the picture broke up. I had to watch “24� in analog for the second week in a row. I'll tell ya, I can’t live like this much longer!

No problem here with KDVR OTA HD for "24". Sound and picture were fine. Amplified attic antenna to a Dish 811 receiver. Signal meter reads 76 to 78.

Originally posted by Symbios
Well, I think my set-top box hates me. Everything was fine with KDVR up until 7:00PM tonight, and then the picture broke up. I had to watch “24� in analog for the second week in a row. I'll tell ya, I can’t live like this much longer!

I almost hate to tell you this, but things were just fine here for 24 too. Sounds like your STB is attacking you personally. It might be going through it's teen age years. I must admit though, I am not sure when 18 is in STB years. Have you tried tough love?

I guess we all got good news yesterday, starting in 2006 the NFL Sunday night game will be on NBC (which I think most of us can get) and the Monday night game will be on ESPN. So there wont be any games on ABC anymore.

Only one more year of no High Def Monday night football for me.

I already never watch ABC, but now I won't even be tempted.

Later
Joe

Is there an ABC station in Denver!?
(Sorry - couldn't help myself)

And FPOTP -- Woo Hoo!

I think my tuner can’t pass HD signals anymore! I can watch 480p all day long, and then when HD kicks in at 7:00 it starts coughing up blood (on all channels now).

Well, it is getting pretty old and parts are starting to fall off, which is never a good sign. So I guess I can’t blame it for being bitter.

I think it's about time I start looking for a new tuner. Good-bye sweet Samsung, you gave me so many hours of HD goodness. You will be missed.

Samsung SIR-T100,
October 1999 - April 2005



...Ok, I’m done now!

Originally posted by joej
I guess we all got good news yesterday, starting in 2006 the NFL Sunday night game will be on NBC (which I think most of us can get) and the Monday night game will be on ESPN. So there wont be any games on ABC anymore.

Only one more year of no High Def Monday night football for me.

I already never watch ABC, but now I won't even be tempted.

Later
Joe

I won't be tempted except for this little xl game at Ford Field 1st Sunday in Feb. I believe I will be watching that one game in glorious analog SD in that I'm waiting for the media center from D* before getting HD LiL. Until then, KMGH? What is the Denver Channel?

Don

Originally posted by joej
I guess we all got good news yesterday, starting in 2006 the NFL Sunday night game will be on NBC...

I guess it depends on who you talk to.

As far as I'm concerned, the only good news would be that all Denver stations are broadcasting at full power, and digital white areas are defined, so that satellite viewers can view what they can't receive OTA.

Anything else, is simply not good news.
....jc

Originally posted by Symbios
I think my tuner can’t pass HD signals anymore! I can watch 480p all day long, and then when HD kicks in at 7:00 it starts coughing up blood (on all channels now).

That doesn't make any sense. No station runs 480p on their digital channel and then switches to 720p, or 1080i, during network primetime. That transition would require lots of seconds of resyncing. Stations run 720p or 1080i all the while they are on air. If they aren't airing real HD material, they will air NTSC 480i upconverted to 720p/1080i. With any luck, the station will do it right and add pillar bars to keep the NTSC material's aspect ratio correct, or they'll stretch it to fill the screen.

The only way you are going to see 480p DTV is if the station isn't equipped to do HD at all. My current WB affiliate can't do HD and before the Fox splicer stuff was added, my local Fox affiliate was the same way.

So, I'm hoping that you mean that you were watching a non-HD station and then changing the channel to an HD station, only to have your tuner not work.

I do not know your STB. I have the Sammy SIR-T165, because I have to feed D-VHS decks.

Originally posted by mrvideo
That doesn't make any sense. No station runs 480p on their digital channel and then switches to 720p, or 1080i, during network primetime. That transition would require lots of seconds of resyncing. KRMA-DT runs 480i until midafternoon, and then switches to 1080i. There is always a hiccup when they switch, and it doesn't always happen right on schedule - sometimes the technician misses his wake-up call.

I haven't seen any other local station switch resolution, though.

Originally posted by oxothuk
KRMA-DT runs 480i until midafternoon, and then switches to 1080i. There is always a hiccup when they switch, and it doesn't always happen right on schedule - sometimes the technician misses his wake-up call.

Damn, I stand corrected. There is an idiot station pulling that crap.:(

I pity the viewers who have to put up with it.

It really shouldn't be any different than changing channels -- you go from 720p to 1080i when change channels from ABC to CBS.

I used to be an advocate for 'that crap'. I just wish the STBs handled it better. It was desirable to wish a station did that to circumvent what I consider an oversight in early generation STB design. The benefit is that most STBs won't let you manipulate an HD signal when you configure it for a 16:9 display, but they will allow manipulation of a 480i signal. I guess they assumed 1080i and 720p would always contain HD content. I hope newer STBs are less restrictive.

Originally posted by RonAuger
It really shouldn't be any different than changing channels -- you go from 720p to 1080i when change channels from ABC to CBS.

That is the problem. When you change channels, the STB has to acquire the signal and then acquire the data stream and figure it all out. The only difference with already being on the channel is that you don't have the part where the tuner has to acquire the station. But, it does have to go through a reconfiguration based upon all of the changes in the stream. That takes time. It isn't instantaneous. Also, the station has to change all of the data in the stream as well, which might be more instant. But the reading of the changes aren't. The same thing happens with the commercial DVB satellite receivers that I have. One of them I can control remotely, via a serial port. The Warner Brothers DVB stream has four virtual channels. With a simple command, I can tell the receiver to switch to a different virtual channel. But, it take several seconds to read that stream and determine the video and audio data information before it gives me the video/audio.

The STB will react the same way, as the same underlieing technology is used for the streams. This means that a station cannot change from 480i/p to 720p/1080i at 6:59.99 and expect the viewer to be seeing HDTV at 7:00.00. It ain't gonna happen. It is safer to stay 720p/1080i at all times.

I used to be an advocate for 'that crap'. I just wish the STBs handled it better. It was desirable to wish a station did that to circumvent what I consider an oversight in early generation STB design. The benefit is that most STBs won't let you manipulate an HD signal when you configure it for a 16:9 display, but they will allow manipulation of a 480i signal. I guess they assumed 1080i and 720p would always contain HD content. I hope newer STBs are less restrictive.

According to the spec, 720p/1080i will only contain 16:9 video. Plus, 720p/1080i is HD and only HD.

Originally posted by mrvideo
This means that a station cannot change from 480i/p to 720p/1080i at 6:59.99 and expect the viewer to be seeing HDTV at 7:00.00. No, they should switch at 6:59:56. According to the spec, 720p/1080i will only contain 16:9 video. Plus, 720p/1080i is HD and only HD. Like the Hertz phrase, "there's HD, and there's 'not exactly'". Yeah, I know 720p/1080i is always 1.78 formatted. That's my point -- you can't stretch 1.33 content, and if a station does the stretching, you can't compress it.

</Conversation>

Originally posted by RonAuger
No, they should switch at 6:59:56.

From your postings, I have to assume that you do not want 720p/1080i if the station doesn't do any HD, i.e., you want 480i/p.

I disagree. The DTV transmission should be the same at all times, period. Any nasty glitch like this is going to cause complaints. While you and I know what the hell is going on, once ma and pop jones finally gets to receive DTV, they won't know what is up and bitch, rightly so.

The 4:3 content should go out pillar boxed, no stretched. Viewers should not be allowed to do manual short-fat people either. A square should be a square, not a rectangle. If you don't like the pillar bars, feed the analog signal to your monitor and display it any way you want. Analog ain't going away any time soon.

Like the Hertz phrase, "there's HD, and there's 'not exactly'". Yeah, I know 720p/1080i is always 1.78 formatted. That's my point -- you can't stretch 1.33 content, and if a station does the stretching, you can't compress it.

Why the hell would you want to stretch 4:3 content? As mentioned above, that is just plain wrong.

Originally posted by mrvideo
Why the hell would you want to stretch 4:3 content? As mentioned above, that is just plain wrong.
Easy! To prevent 'burn in'. The manufacturer of my widescreen warns not to have 'still' images(anywhere on the screen) viewed for a prolonged time. Stretching 4:3 content solves that problem. Ugly? Yes, but what are you gona do?
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Easy! To prevent 'burn in'. The manufacturer of my widescreen warns not to have 'still' images(anywhere on the screen) viewed for a prolonged time. Stretching 4:3 content solves that problem. Ugly? Yes, but what are you gona do?

Ah yes, the burn-in problem. That is why I'll never get a monitor that will have that problem.

That said, your having a problem with burn-in is no reason to force unnatural stuff on others. To want a station to do 480i/p when not doing HD may work for you, but will be hated by many others. To have the station stretch 4:3 content may work for you, but again, it will be hated by many others.

As mentioned, the cure is for you to tune in the analog OTA signal, or D*/cable of the local channel, so you can do whatever distortions you want.

As far as I am concerned, displays that burn in that easily should never have been allowed to be manufactured in the first place.

Originally posted by mrvideo
That said, your having a problem with burn-in is no reason to force unnatural stuff on others. To want a station to do 480i/p when not doing HD may work for you, but will be hated by many others. To have the station stretch 4:3 content may work for you, but again, it will be hated by many others.
Mr. Video, get a clue. I'm not forcing anything on anybody. Did I ever say that I wanted 480i? No. You made that up. I just indicated why I stretch 480i.

As mentioned, the cure is for you to tune in the analog OTA signal, or D*/cable of the local channel, so you can do whatever distortions you want.
The cure for you is...Sorry a cure for cluelessness hasn't been found. And, please tell someone else what to do.

As far as I am concerned, displays that burn in that easily should never have been allowed to be manufactured in the first place.
I agree. But, technology, apparently, has lagged behind.
....jc

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
Mr. Video, get a clue. I'm not forcing anything on anybody. Did I ever say that I wanted 480i? No. You made that up. I just indicated why I stretch 480i.

My mistake, I mixed your postings up with RonAuger. I wasn't paying attention to the poster. Both of you are posting at the same time with almost exactly the same thread. I'm glad that you aren't advocating stations going 480i/p.

I agree. But, technology, apparently, has lagged behind.
....jc

LCD/DLP! I know, they probably weren't at a point where you could get one when you got your unit. Plasma is also supposidly better now then it was when first released.

Originally posted by mrvideo
...I'm glad that you aren't advocating stations going 490i/p.
Mr. Video,
I've been participating in this thread for a while now, and I can assure you that nobody here wants anything less than 1080i. But, most people are very frustrated with the current situation. And, most people here can also recognize, that with subchannels, we'll be lucky to get 720p from some stations.
....jc

mr video,
You are obviously connvinced that you are right and everyone elses opinion is wrong. Since you have all the answers, it's too bad all the TV stations, the ATSC, and the STB manufacturers didn't consult you first. You could have saved us all from wanting anything.

I've given up conversing with you -- I'll spend my time posting to those on the Denver thread that are actually in Denver. Totally, you should just give up too.

Get the hint </Conversation>

Originally posted by TotallyPreWired
I've been participating in this thread for a while now, and I can assure you that nobody here wants anything less than 1080i. But, most people are very frustrated with the current situation. And, most people here can also recognize, that with subchannels, we'll be lucky to get 720p from some stations.

It sounds like you prefer 1080i over 720p. Any particular reason, or reasons, why?

I don't really care for one over the other. One can read "facts" that says one is better than the other and vice-versa. Supposidly 720p takes less bits to provide the same picture quality as 1080i. That is one of the reasons why Fox went with 720p, but I still see macroblocking with Fox drama programming, specifically the intense images during Tru Calling's "rewind" sequences. Yet I've never really noticed any problems with ABC's 720p.

I've not noticed anything with NBC's 1080i, but definately have with CBS's 1080i. But, the bitrate is drastically hindered in my local area because they have a SDTV channel for the UPN network. How anyone could believe that the bitrate available for DTV is good enough for one HD channel and one SD channel at the same time.

RonAuger:

I'm sorry you believe that my hardline stance that DTV stations should stay 720p, or 1080i, and not switch between 480i/p and 720p/1080i is totally wrong. If such a switch could happen instantly, instead of seconds, then I would have no objection to it. But when it has the potential of taotally screwing up your viewing/recording of a program because the master control operator "forgot" to "flip the switch, it isn't worth it. We have enough trouble just getting stations to switch to the network HD feed on time.

So, as far as I am concerned, it is just plain wrong, and I'm sticking to it. Just like you can have your opinion that there is nothing wrong with doing that. You think I'm wrong and I think your wrong.

Isn't that called a Mexican standoff? Certainly a deadlock. Either way, neither of are going to change our minds about it.

Originally posted by mrvideo
LCD/DLP! I know, they probably weren't at a point where you could get one when you got your unit. Plasma is also supposidly better now then it was when first released.
Personally, I think if the station's broadcasting 480i, they should send out 480i; why should I worry about how the station is going to upconvert it? If the station sends 480i, I get to decide how it will be displayed out of my STB; if the station sends out 4:3 in 720p or 1080i, I have to deal with it in 16:9 mode and figure out if I can do something with the result if the station chooses not to pillarbox it.

Also, IMHO LCD and DLP make unacceptable pictures, from screen door artifacts on LCD to the horrid crushing of blacks by DLP. Even six figure, three chip cinema DLP projectors look like garbage because of it...

Wow, what have I done...

So if stations are HD all the time, then why on earth does my box start macro-blocking when a station switches to the national feed?



And not to brag or anything but... top of the page! Woo hoo, yeah! In-your-face! ;)

Originally posted by kucharsk
Personally, I think if the station's broadcasting 480i, they should send out 480i; why should I worry about how the station is going to upconvert it? If the station sends 480i, I get to decide how it will be displayed out of my STB; if the station sends out 4:3 in 720p or 1080i, I have to deal with it in 16:9 mode and figure out if I can do something with the result if the station chooses not to pillarbox it.

I do not disagree with the reasons for wanting the 4:3 material to be sent as 4:3. intead of 4:3 inside 16:9 (stretched or pillar bar'd). The problem is in trusting the station to go from 480i/p to 720p/1080i in time before they feed the network HD material. Ya, right. It is a problem just getting some stations to switch to the network HD feed, let alone switch from one DTV format to another. Fox has pretty much solved the switch to net problem with three timezone feeds and their splicer system. The other networks do not have a Mountain HD feed, so your stations have to play out from a server, so I don't know if your local stations are doing a better job of getting the HD material on air than the rest of the country.

Because of the Fox splicer system, I don't know if they can do DTV format changes. The splicer has to be configured with the PCR/PMT info the local station has configured into their ATSC encoder. I do not know if PCR/PMT info is set differently for HDTV and SDTV. If different, then it can't be done with Fox affiliates.

I know that I would not appreciate a station screwing up and switching to HDTV after going to net. It would totally screw up any recording anyone was doing, beside the glitch is just viewing the show.

As a workwround. why not just tune in the NTSC analog broadcast to get real 4:3? That is what I do. When net is done and I next want to watch the local news, I just switch the TV from the letterboxed video input to the built in NTSC tuner. My TV is a normal NTSC TV. My HD viewing is on a Samsung multipurpose 17" LCD monitor. A downconverted letterboxed output, with audio, is sent to the TV. The audio goes from the TV to the stereo system. When the program is on, I watch on the LCD. During commercial breaks I switch the LCD back to computer to do some work and monitor for the return to net on the NTSC TV. I don't watch the news on the LCD monitor. I watch all of my 4:3 stuff on the NTSC TV.

Also, IMHO LCD and DLP make unacceptable pictures, from screen door artifacts on LCD to the horrid crushing of blacks by DLP. Even six figure, three chip cinema DLP projectors look like garbage because of it...

I have definately seen the artifacts on the LCD monitor, but nomally only during pure red against a dark background. The gaps between the reds are easily seen.

I had heard about the crushing blacks, but haven't seen it on the single chip DLP projector that we had at work before I had to send it out. We watched a Christmas movie at work (making a luncheon out of it, etc.) on the DLP (DVD as the source), set to 16:9 mode. I never saw any problems with black level at all. No one else mentioned any problem either. What I did see, after reading about it, is the rainbow effect. That did bother me.

Is there a perfect monitor? It seems not. But at least LCD doesn't have burn-in. With extremely large LCD panels coming down the pike, you aren't going to be sitting close enough to see the LCD artifact anyway (at least I hope one won't be able to see the problem).

Originally posted by Symbios
So if stations are HD all the time, then why on earth does my box start macro-blocking when a station switches to the national feed?

Damn good question. Is it happening on all stations, including Fox network stuff? Since Fox does the encoding in LA, the local station does nothing but pass it "directly" to the transmitter. While I've seen macroblocking with Fox net stuff, it takes some heavy duty rapid video frame changes to cause it. I only watch dramas, no sports, so I can't say what those look like from Fox, or any network for that matter.

For the other networks, they receive a compressed high bandwidth sat feed of uncompressed HD material. The station is supposed to uncompress it back out to high bandwidth HD-SDI (or is it SDI-HD). The bandwith it much higher, around 45MB, than the 17-18MB that might actually make it on air. You'd have to ask your local stations what they are doing to transport the HD around their plant.

So, unless they have inferior encoders, or have the bitrate set to low (the SF WB affiliate was doing that for the longest time before finally being convinced to change their ways), or worse yet, have a SD channel going at the same time as the HD channel, which steals bits from the HD stream. I have that problem here with the CBS affiliate, which runs a 3-4 MB SD channel as well as the HD channel. I do see some stuff with them, but it really doesn't show up until shows like the Grammys. When the musical acts start playing and there is tons of rapid video changes, the macroblocking got so bad two years ago that I didn't watch the HD this last time. It got so bad it became real difficult to see a viable image.

What are you watching when you see the macroblocking? If it is high action sports, then I can undestand. If it is dramas, then I don't understand where the problem is coming from.

That said, it is hard not to get macroblocking. I personally consider the ATSC digital spec to be bit starved. Having to pass all that data in a 6MHz channel, using MPEG-2, was just asking for trouble. I feel that the channel width should have been 12 MHz. But, since there are barely enough channels to handle analog and digital at 6MHz, have 12MHz channels just wasn't going to happen. And, with Uncle Sam taking away a bunch of channels on the high end, there will be even fewer channels after the transition.

Wait-a-sec, I just thought of something. Except for Fox, all of the Denver stations have to record the net HD feeds onto HD servers. The question to ask is what is the bandwidth of the recorded HD onto those servers. One would expect those servers to have bandwidth high enough so that there isn't a problem as a result of the feed being recorded. The local ABC affiliate can play out recorded HD material, as I have a tape of a Star Trek movie they recorded and played as part of the Paramount HD movie package they bought. I didn't notice any problem with it, so it can be done right.

Any other thoughts as to why Symbios is having macroblocking?

Digital is not necessarily better.

To interrupt this ongoing (irrelevant to me) conversation, my signal strength on all the Denver digital channels is down slightly this year (last two weeks). And, for me, that means I can no longer get KMGH at all on my Tivo. The other stations are still ok though. I used to have a signal strength of about 60 on KMGH and now it varies between 0 and 20 with no lock.

I don't know what changed this year... trees, new building causing different mutipath or what. This weekend I will trek back to the roof yet one more time to see if the antenna moved or if a slight change will improve it.

What a royal pain. Comcast is looking better as a source just for Denver locals... but no Tivo on Comcast!

Originally posted by mrvideo
The problem is in trusting the station to go from 480i/p to 720p/1080i in time before they feed the network HD material. Ya, right. It is a problem just getting some stations to switch to the network HD feed, let alone switch from one DTV format to another.
It of course isn't just the stations; much has already been said about ABC forgetting to flip the switch at the network end for Desperate Housewives this past Sunday until a few minutes in, notably after they put up the "In HD" bug...
I know that I would not appreciate a station screwing up and switching to HDTV after going to net. It would totally screw up any recording anyone was doing, beside the glitch is just viewing the show.
They're already screwing up that way at the network level. :eek:
As a workwround. why not just tune in the NTSC analog broadcast to get real 4:3? That is what I do.
That's great in a market like Madison, where you have full power HD, but here in Denver most of us have to point our antennas in a completely different direction to receive HD. There's also the little problem of what happens when NTSC goes away; the majority of program content will still be 4:3, and it's best to try and sort out exactly what will happen then now...
I had heard about the crushing blacks, but haven't seen it on the single chip DLP projector that we had at work before I had to send it out. We watched a Christmas movie at work (making a luncheon out of it, etc.) on the DLP (DVD as the source), set to 16:9 mode. I never saw any problems with black level at all. No one else mentioned any problem either. What I did see, after reading about it, is the rainbow effect. That did bother me.
The problem with crushing blacks is it's generally not noticeable unless you have a comparison to see how much shadow detail is going missing. For example, I saw Episode II both on film and digitally DLP projected; I never would have known all the details were just plain missing from every night scene in the digitally projected version unless I had seen the film version a few days before. One trick to play is to crank the brightness on the DLP set up all the way and note the details in dark shadowy scenes, then restore it to a normal level, and you'll see that everything below about 20% grey is just plain shunted to black. :(

Another test is to look for a person with dark brown or black hair; on a CRT you'll see individual hairs, but on DLP many of those areas will just be a solid black.
Is there a perfect monitor? It seems not. But at least LCD doesn't have burn-in. With extremely large LCD panels coming down the pike, you aren't going to be sitting close enough to see the LCD artifact anyway (at least I hope one won't be able to see the problem).
I wish that were true, but I don't see it happening any time soon. For example, I work on a laptop and do have flat panel displays available for my computers at home and at work, but the displays I use the most are CRT. For example, we got some really nice 21" LCD panels in at work, and I couldn't live with it for more than a day or so before I shunted it to secondary duty and put my 21" CRT back into place...

It happens on all channels, doesn't matter what I'm watching either, it always does it. Sometimes it gets so bad that maybe macro-blocking isn't the correct term for it.

I believe this discussion is moot because I'm certain it's my box; maybe I'll take the cover off later and see if I can't find something.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Video.

I've noticed the same thing Dennis, I used to be able to get KCNC and KRMA (which is amazing because I'm about 50 miles east of the transmitters!) but now I get nothing.

Originally posted by kucharsk
It of course isn't just the stations; much has already been said about ABC forgetting to flip the switch at the network end for Desperate Housewives this past Sunday until a few minutes in, notably after they put up the "In HD" bug...

It actually wasn't that long. I was watching. My guess is that someone loaded a wront timecode value. That stuff is normally under computer control these days. Even though the real HD wasn't coming through for a little bit, it was still going out from the network as 720p. The switch doesn't cause any glitches in any receivers. It was actually weird to watch, since the pillar bars just vanished. The two images were perfectly locked. If it would have been a local station switching late from 480 to 720, all kinds of objects would have been tossed at the screens by the viewers. That is my point, stations going late to net or the net screwing up (NBC is the worst), doesn't cause STB glitching like 480 to 720/1080 does. Lesser of two evils :-)

They're already screwing up that way at the network level. :eek:

The ABC screwup last Sunday is the first that I've seen ABC do. I've seen NBC never get it right for a program that was supposed to be in HD being sent out as the SD upconvert. An upconvert of a letterboxed SD program is nasty. I watch very little CBS programming. I've never seen Fox screw it up. I doubt that they ever will. As I understand it, with their buildout for HD, an HD program is the only source. So the SD stream gets a center cut of the HD tape. Hopefully their routing doesn't let a center cut of an HD program to go out the HD stream. Fox has a lot more HD content outside of the program than any other network. But, ABC surprised me the other day with an HD commercial. I think it was for iPod.

That's great in a market like Madison, where you have full power HD, but here in Denver most of us have to point our antennas in a completely different direction to receive HD. There's also the little problem of what happens when NTSC goes away; the majority of program content will still be 4:3, and it's best to try and sort out exactly what will happen then now...

Depending on where you live here in Madison, you could be right between the two towers. That means you would have to have the antenna on a rotor in order to move it the 180 degrees. The tower with the most stations is supposed to move within three years to a location about 5 mile away (southwest). I currently have a 45 degree angle and can get all of the stations. But, with the move of the tower, I might start having trouble trying to tape two stations on the different towers. So, all is not perfect here in Madison land.

Another test is to look for a person with dark brown or black hair; on a CRT you'll see individual hairs, but on DLP many of those areas will just be a solid black.

I don't access to the DLP projector anymore, so I can't do any further testing.

I wish that were true, but I don't see it happening any time soon. For example, I work on a laptop and do have flat panel displays available for my computers at home and at work, but the displays I use the most are CRT. For example, we got some really nice 21" LCD panels in at work, and I couldn't live with it for more than a day or so before I shunted it to secondary duty and put my 21" CRT back into place...

I definately prefer the LCD over glass for computer work. Every CRT I've used has always been too dark. When looking at images, they are hard to look at. The LCD that I have at home and the ones we have at work are great to work with. Unfortunately, I only have glass in my office. Besides the space savings, I think the color images look much better.

Originally posted by Symbios
It happens on all channels, doesn’t matter what I’m watching either, it always does it. Sometimes it gets so bad that maybe macro-blocking isn’t the correct term for it.

Any chance of doing any screen captures of what you are seeing so that we can see? Doesn't have to be an HD grab, a downconvert to NTSC anamorphic will do.

I heard on the radio today that CompUSA is having a 7% over cost sale this Saturday (4/23). In other markets where this sale has occured, people have been able to purchase HD-Tivo's (HR10-250) for about $750. I haven't been to CompUSA for a few weeks, but I have seen the HD-Tivos at the Aurora and the Park Meadows stores in the past. Might be worth a phone call.

Is this the Denver OTA thread, or have I incorrectly stumbled into the Madison Wisconsin thread or a discussion from the AVS Programming section on the national network switching issues relating to SD or HD programming??? Although some of the discussions have been interesting, I am not sure how or why they belong in the Denver OTA thread.
:confused:

I'm not sure anything is relevant in this thread....we have no hope.

Okay, maybe a glimmer of hope.

My signals are down this year too. I guess I am just to the point where I really don't care. I hate the stations and I hate my HD TiVo. The only thing on worth watching for me anymore is Deadwood and American Chopper (both in HD BTW). Even the movies on HBO HD have sucked lately and OTA is getting to be nothing more than commericals interrupted occasionally by programming.

Geof:

I hope you don't get to the point that you need Zoloft or something stronger. As the saying goes, "It's just TV."

Originally posted by DennisMileHi
Geof:

I hope you don't get to the point that you need Zoloft or something stronger. As the saying goes, "It's just TV." HA!

Nah, I'm not depressed - except about this whole tower fiasco.
Next year at this time I will be busy building a new house in Western NY State and probably bugging the Buffalo stations! Yeah a whole new set of station managers to annoy!!! YIPEE!!!

I also feel that my signal strength is down, I used to be able to get KCNC o.k., but now it is really unwatchable. I'm still holding on to the hope that D* will get the Denver Locals up and have a solution for me to record them. If not I guess I'll continue like I am, I record from the national feed for CBS, but local for FOX, WB, and NBC.

Later
Joe

FWIW I haven't seen any drop in my signal levels, in fact I might be getting a tad more or KCNC than I used to. Not very noticeable though. Maybe the wind or something has 'tweaked' the antenna assemblies on the Republic Bldg?? From my location it doesn't look like any less power is being transmitted. OK, I've got it! It's interference from the KMGH digital tower on Lookout Mt. Remember, their lawyer said they would be on the air in the fall of 2004. They must have made it on the air and we didn't notice.

Geof, if you think TV is bad now, how 'bout some sympathy for some of us who normally would be watching a couple of NHL games each night if the Avs weren't at home. I can't believe how little there is to watch when you take hockey from the equation. I never realized what a wasteland TV can be until they stopped playing hockey. Now that DU is done (National Champs again, wooo whooo) there ain't nothin on. I even am starting to find Deadwood boring. Too many ƒ bombs and not enough story any more.

Maybe that's why I am so cranky lately. Thank heavens I have some new speakers to break in. Lot's of old music to listen to again in a new environment.

Just so nobody forgets! The 1st televised NFL preseason game(Atlanta vs Indy) is only 107 days away. And, the 1st Bronco(Donkies?) game(Denver vs Miami), is only 143 days away.

So, now one of my goals, is to figger out how to get Fox in HD. Do I 'move', will digital 'White Areas' be defined, or will KDVR boost it's signal?

I only have 107 days to create, and execute, a plan!

And, you thought that your life was tough!

....jc

Originally posted by Geof
I'm not sure anything is relevant in this thread....we have no hope.

Okay, maybe a glimmer of hope.



Ah yes, the writings of the tower optimist. It is my goal to be one someday, maybe in July. Until then, I'll agree with the first statement.

Don

Yeah, I don't think anything that is said here is considered off-topic anymore, John.

Mr. Video, the picture is breaking up, I'm sure you've seen that. Something is wrong with it and I'm done fooling with it, I'm going to get a new one.

Thanks for trying to help anyway, I appreciate it.

You know, I only get two stinking channels. I can't help but wonder if it's really worth it to get a new tuner?

Damn C.A.R.E.! Look what they've done to us!

Anyone know what was up with KCNC tonight? They sent out CSI: in 4:3 (I thought they'd flip the switch eventually but they never did, though I suppose it could have been a CBS issue...)

CSI was HD two hours later on KCBS-DT. Are they getting ready to spin off yet another CSI this Fall -- in L.A.?

Originally posted by Symbios
the picture is breaking up, I’m sure you’ve seen that. So's your post. Try using an editor that can actuall type an apostrophe.

Hey JM, you need to head up to Loveland and check out the CO Eagles at the Bud Center! They are kicking butt this year (unfortunaltey most of their games sell out so tix can be difficult to get). Check out coloradoeagles.com. They are in the finals this year (The Presidents Cup for CHL = Stanley Cup for the NHL).

...and to stay O.T., I bet their games would look great broadcast locally in HD, If we could then actually get any signals reliably. ;-)

an editor that can actuall type an apostrophe. [/B]

Or at least reliably type the letter "y".

Why would you say that, Ron? Are my apostrophes and commas being replaced with weird characters again?

I really love Mozilla Firefox, but I wish it would quit doing this.

Originally posted by Jetlag
Hey JM, you need to head up to Loveland and check out the CO Eagles at the Bud Center! They are kicking butt this year (unfortunaltey most of their games sell out so tix can be difficult to get). Check out coloradoeagles.com. They are in the finals this year (The Presidents Cup for CHL = Stanley Cup for the NHL).

...and to stay O.T., I bet their games would look great broadcast locally in HD, If we could then actually get any signals reliably. ;-)

I've got my tickets for games 1, 6 and 7!! :D Should be a blast.
I got my tickets yesterday on www.comcasttix.com . I don't know if they've sold out yet or not.

Originally posted by kucharsk
Anyone know what was up with KCNC tonight? They sent out CSI: in 4:3 (I thought they'd flip the switch eventually but they never did, though I suppose it could have been a CBS issue...)


They tried HD at the start. It was all broken up in all green so they switched it back. It was OTA & on Comcast so who knows if it was KCNC or the network's problem.

Originally posted by Jetlag
Hey JM, you need to head up to Loveland and check out the CO Eagles at the Bud Center! They are kicking butt this year (unfortunaltey most of their games sell out so tix can be difficult to get). Check out coloradoeagles.com. They are in the finals this year (The Presidents Cup for CHL = Stanley Cup for the NHL).

...and to stay O.T., I bet their games would look great broadcast locally in HD, If we could then actually get any signals reliably. ;-)

Your not the first to mention that to me. I actually saw a couple of their regular season games on Altitude or Fox ?? but was pretty much watching college hockey during the year. There were a lot of college games in the D* sports package, and a lot of backhauls on C-Band too. I also caught some of the Sweedish league games from Europe on the tele at my 'northern home'. After the college season ended, I just haven't developed the interest in the CHL. I have had several others recommend I get up to a game, just haven't gotten around to it. You are correct though, if the games were telecast in HD, I probably would be more interested.
OT
:rolleyes:

Re: CSI last night...uh-oh...I'm now glad I recorded it from WCBS-DT an hour earlier from New York. It was in HD as well.

Anyone have a spare 24" dish with D-style LNB arm laying around that they'd like to part with? Or, anyone know where I could get one locally for not a huge amount of money? Maybe even a 30" dish?

Originally posted by joej
If not I guess I'll continue like I am, I record from the national feed for CBS, but local for FOX, WB, and NBC.

If you don't mind my asking, where are you getting the CBS national feed?

Mr. Video - we can get the CBS national HD feeds from both Dish and Directv here in Denver.

The discussion on dropping signal strength got me curious, so I checked several times last night and this morning (DTV has become so routine after a year and a half that I don't notice the signal strength numbers anymore when changing channels). Well, 5 of the 6 are the same as always, but KUSA shows a significant drop.

Channel 16 has been my strongest DTV channel since a got my Dish 811 receiver in December 2003. The only one I could pick up with an amplified set-top antenna. It has been at +90 % since January 2004, when I established my attic antenna set up. Last night and this morning it is 77-78 %, a pretty big change. Obviously the wind didn't move my attic antenna, so I'm at a loss as to what is going on. It isn't the trees, as I've already experienced over a full year w/o any signal change during seasonal changes. Interesting......

Interesting indeed. Four people have noticed the same thing, that can’t just be a coincidence.

Somebody check on the solar storm activity this week.

Originally posted by CEB II
The discussion on dropping signal strength got me curious, so I checked several times last night and this morning (DTV has become so routine after a year and a half that I don't notice the signal strength numbers anymore when changing channels). Well, 5 of the 6 are the same as always, but KUSA shows a significant drop.
.......Interesting......
I haven't experienced any signal drop on KUSA since they came on the air. I will check again this weekend, but I really think there may have been a slight transmit antenna tweek (maybe not even intentional) that has slightly changed the levels in some directions, either that or it is foliage related. KUSA always is one of my strongest stations from the Republic Bldg.

Originally posted by Symbios
Interesting indeed. Four people have noticed the same thing, that can’t just be a coincidence.
My best receiver doesn't have a signal strength indicator, but 16(KUSA) used to get 'programmed', now it doesn't. I've never been able to watch it. Here's what I'm getting:

2 - Programmed only - Not Viewable
4 - Viewable
5 - (Cheyenne) Viewable
6 - Viewable
7.* - Viewable
9.* - Not Programmed, but used to be
12.* - Viewable
31 - Programmed only(I need Fox!)

....jc

In the past week or so I have also lost the signal for 9-1 and 6-1 at our location between Lone Tree and Castle Rock. 4-1 was always spotty but the other Republic tower stations came in fine, not anymore. Fox and WB still come in fine and I can still receive KKTV from Colorado Springs.

I've lost some signal (now it's just below threshold) for KCNC-DT once spring arrived. It happened last year too. I can only get it during the day, and only occasionally. Fortunally I get KCBS-DT from D*, and two-hours later works perfect for me (who needs Tivo?!:rolleyes)

Originally posted by markdl
Mr. Video - we can get the CBS national HD feeds from both Dish and Directv here in Denver. Actually, I think you're only supposed to get KCBS-DT, not WCBS-DT. An east coast distant, here in Denver, is probably a mistake.

Originally posted by Jetlag
Or at least reliably type the letter "y". Smart-a$$;)

Originally posted by RonAuger
Actually, I think you're only supposed to get KCBS-DT, not WCBS-DT. An east coast distant, here in Denver, is probably a mistake.
Ron,
KCNC is O & O, so don't all D* subscribers get it automatically(The West feed)? Now, I have a waiver for NBC, and I get both East & West feeds. So, I assume that a waiver for CBS, would include both East & West as well.

....jc

Off topic posts deleted.

Originally posted by CPanther95
Off topic posts deleted.
Thank you CPanther95.
Now back to our regular OTA programming.

Checked my levels on KUSA and KCNC last night and they are still at the same levels I have seen for the last few years (about 60%). Not sure what your issues are (except possibly foliage), although there seemed to ba a lot of wind and hot air blowing yesterday from the north.
:rolleyes:

The only reason I can think of for the lower signal strength a lot of people are reporting is the construction of the new 38-story Hyatt hotel, with its large steel beacon, across from the convention center. Nothing else has significantly changed since last summer that I'm aware of.

Hopefully we'll have full power from Lookout before the 50-story, 752' tall Teatro / Four Seasons tower goes up! - http://www.denverskyscrapers.com

Ron - with Dish, you can get the CBS HD east coast feed if you want it (and have a dish pointint at 61.5).

A couple of weeks ago, I also saw a significant loss of signal on KUSA - on my 942 I was pegging out at 100%, now I'm sitting at 76%. Nothing changed on my end.

Originally posted by bikenski
Hopefully we'll have full power from Lookout before the 50-story, 752' tall Teatro / Four Seasons tower goes up! - http://www.denverskyscrapers.com Or, maybe our local stations ought to start asking about leasing the roof for their antennas if, in July, the hammer drops.

BTW: Anyone taking bets on the outcome of case?

Originally posted by Geof
Or, maybe our local stations ought to start asking about leasing the roof for their antennas if, in July, the hammer drops.

BTW: Anyone taking bets on the outcome of case?

I'll bet a beer it ends up in an appeals court.
:cool:

As for the new tower and TV antennas, I'm sure (S)CARE will be suggesting that soon. Shouldn't be a problem except for the people in the top floors of the Republic and Qwest buildings.

I really don't see the need for transmitters in the new building, since according to the KMGH lawyers, they have already been broadcasting from Lookout since last summer. Not sure what's wrong with my receiver though, I still can't seem to find their signal. My guess is that their having some minor technical glitch. I heard their new Dongiva$hit 9000 is still creating problems with the signal.

I was just checking the DTV timeline and the Mt Morrison tower was approved on 2/3/03. That was over 2 years ago and ground has not been broken on the tower or the building (just some widening of the road).

Anybody have an update on this?

Dave Martinez from KWGN - do you still monitor our discussions here?

If so, what the heck is going on with every HD broadcast that comes from KWGN these days? Everytime something's in HD, the picture is so jittery that it's not watchable at all. Happens both OTA and via Comcast, so this is either a local KWGN problem or a national WB problem. But, I'd think there'd be a lot more discussion of it if it were a national problem.

Yes, the picture gets very jittery. I almost can't watch it because it makes me dizzy.

And has anyone had their closed-captioning come on during commercials even when you set it to 'off'? Is it possible for a station to over-ride your CC settings?

This has only happened to me while watching KWGN-DT.

CC was on "during" Charmed last night not just commercials. No I don't normally wach it.:)

Originally posted by santellavision
I was just checking the DTV timeline and the Mt Morrison tower was approved on 2/3/03. That was over 2 years ago and ground has not been broken on the tower or the building (just some widening of the road).

Anybody have an update on this?

I assume that was a rhetorical question since we all already know the answer is "nothing".

Oh, but wait, according to the KMGH lawyers there is no need for a low power transmitter move since the new towers will be on the air in Sept. of 2004............darn, still can't seem to pick up that signal.

The stations don't care HOW LONG it is delayed, (S)CARE doesn't care WHY it is delayed as long as it stays delayed, Comcast gets more subscribers the LONGER it is delayed, and the public doesn't even realize how far behind the rest of the country we are here in Denver. E* and D* will soon be making money from subscribers who can't receive OTA HD here in town.

In the meantime, we are forced to pay someone to try to receive a signal we are supposed to get for free. So what's the problem here? Big business makes more money at the expense of the common folk and the public good. It's the American way.

For the past few days KDVR-DT has been stretching non-network 4x3 programming into 16x9. In my opinion it looks MUCH worse than the proper 4x3 window they had finally moved to just a few months back.

Please get rid of this stretch-o-vision for good... Homer is fat enough without further enhancement! :D

I just checked my signal strength on the digital channels before reprogramming my Tivo to the (gasp) SD local KMGH ABC station from D*. To my amazement, the signal strengths are back up to where they were before. Actually, KMGH is actually coming in on both my Tivo tuners at an acceptable level.

What the heck is going on? Sunspots, freaky spring weather, or what?

I'd be very interested in others input on this. If you haven't checked your signal strength (especially the 13 of us that could get KMGH), I would enjoy hearing from you. Maybe the last few LOST episodes will be actually viewable in HD.

I know.. small consolation for those of you how are waiting for the KMGH lawyers to confirm that the signal has been turned on at full power!

My tuner is slowly starting to pick up KDVR again! What the heck is going on!?


I kind of like the stretch-o-vision KDVR is doing now. Because I have a 4:3 TV, and not having to watch SD in a window box is really nice.

Is everyone still having the same problems with OTA WB in HD? My fiance was watching tonight and I had to leave the room because it would get so jittery everytime the camera would pan. I've also noticed terrible signal on CBS through Comcast cable, however, the commercials look fine. Does that make any sense to anyone? And YES, my closed captioning has been coming on during the commercials too. I thought it was my TV at first, so I'm glad I'm not the only one having problems. However, FOX HD looks fine.

Anyone heard any news from Comcast as to when they'll offer HD in Longmont? Everytime I call they say "We can't give you a specific date, but soon". Too bad I've been told that for over a year now.

Originally posted by bikenski
For the past few days KDVR-DT has been stretching non-network 4x3 programming into 16x9. In my opinion it looks MUCH worse than the proper 4x3 window they had finally moved to just a few months back.

Please get rid of this stretch-o-vision for good... Homer is fat enough without further enhancement! :D

It took a few years complaining about 14:9 weird-o vision to have them get rid of it, now we have to fight stretch-o-vision. Sorry Symbios, stretch-o-vision has got to go.

Don

But I can't go back to window boxing, I just can’t!

It is a bit odd that they suddenly went to 4:3, maybe people have been complaining (and it wasn’t me, I swear!).

I wonder just wonder if we could counter-sue scare on the tower issue and force the issue back to them that they are holding up the front range from receiving HDTV in the Denver DMA.

Though I have D* the fact that most of the stations are denying waivers for digital is just plain stupid. I have a CM 4228 and preamp and where I am located I still only get WB,Fox and NBC comes in and out. Forget CBS and ABC (DUH).

Just another point of reference. I too am seeing jittery HD on KWGN. And I am seeing CC only during commercials.

I was just wondering today about the state of the Mt Morrison construction. If they take 2 years before even starting to do any physical construction of significance, can we expect the same type of schedule if LCG II ever gets re-approved?

I swear, I'm getting closer to calling Comcast every day.

Originally posted by colofan
I wonder just wonder if we could counter-sue scare on the tower issue and force the issue back to them that they are holding up the front range from receiving HDTV in the Denver DMA.

Though I have D* the fact that most of the stations are denying waivers for digital is just plain stupid. I have a CM 4228 and preamp and where I am located I still only get WB,Fox and NBC comes in and out. Forget CBS and ABC (DUH).

Just a note... I have the CM4228. I took off the mesh (just twisted the clips, no permanent damage) and I get WB and Fox from Denver, and CBS from Cheyenne with no problems. If you try that, it may weaken your signal for NBC. I don't get NBC anyway, so that's not an issue for me.

I do get the west coast feed of CBS from D*, but the Cheyenne reception gave me regular prime time hours and all the Broncos games last fall, so I thought it worth a try.

All,

We are investigating the "jittery" video problem but it may be related to a recent upgrade of our HD encoder. As far as the captioning goes, apparently the CC decoder in our satellite receiver was turned on by mistake and the program captioning was decoded into the video during the record process. It is good to know that WB is sending down captioning...

Anyone have any guess as to when the jittery video problem began?

Thanks!


Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

Dave - I believe it was wither 2 or 3 weeks ago, pretty sure 3 weeks. That's the first time I remember seeing it show up in Smallville.

HA! Lookie there...top of the page on page 555. That's gotta be worth something... :)

Originally posted by markdl
HA! Lookie there...top of the page on page 555. That's gotta be worth something... :)

Just make sure you reserve the top of page 666 for sCARE :)

I sent an email to KDVR earlier today asking them to go back to the unaltered 4x3 rather than the stretcho-vision, and this afternoon, their signal is no longer stretched. :)

Thanks, Mark! Nice to be able to wield the "power"... :)

Also, FWIW, I have had no 'jitters' from KWGN.

Samsung T160.

Resume Party

Wow that was fast, I emailed Dave just a few hours ago.

I haven’t seen any jittering either.
I'm watching OTA, so I don't know what the comcast folk are seeing.