Yeah, i don't think there is any Sat/OTA receivers that auto-change their output resolution to match the source
Huh? Most modern receivers have a "native" mode where they send whatever resolution is being broadcast to your set, thus 2, 4 and 9 come through in 1080i, 31 in 720p, and 6 in 1080i or 480i depending on whether they're broadcasting in HD or not.

Why would I want a receiver that would always munge everything to one particular resolution if I could avoid it?

You might want to re-think your settings. With a native 720p DLP, it usually displays the best PQ when you set your Tivo to output 1080i for channels that are native 1080i (HBO/SHO/CBS/NBC/HDnet etc) and then change the Tivo output to 720p only for native 720p channels like ESPN, FOX & ABC. And some guys even set the output to 480i/p (depending on your cabling) for SD material. The reason is, the scaler in your display will almost always do a better job than the scaler in the Tivo. So by changing the Tivo ouput, you are bypassing the cheapo scaling chip in most HD Receivers. Of course, your mileage may vary and anything is possible. ;)

I spent hundreds of hours (NFL ST '04) experimenting with the settings and determined that I got the best picture doing exactly what Ernie (santellavision) describes above. This is with an D* HD tivo feeding a Hitachi LCD.

I spent Sat. A.M. wandering the top of my roof, yard, etc, looking for the rumored 17...I was not able to find it. A check of antennaweb.org shows KMGH at 138 deg. and KUSA at 135 deg, so from my perspective that puts KMGH directly behind the western edge of the downtown skyscrapers -- my antenna can't see what isn't there. The upside is that the antenna improved the reception of the other channels so much I decided to keep it. KUSA, which gave me trouble last week after my ariel moved slightly, now measures 92 on the signal meter. KCNC only comes in at 71 and the remainder are strong mid 80s. Before the meter readings would fluctuate; now they are rock solid steady. Much better.

Still, last night I saw the same problem kucharsk saw on KUSA -- dropouts. I saw this on the news last night and I know it was good on Saturday as I watched intently during and after my installation.

That doesn't make sense. KCNC is sending their signal to you in 1080i. Then your Tivo's $1.98 scaler is more likely messing it up when it's converting their signal to your output setting of 720p. If your seeing vertical line issues, it's probably not KCNC and more likely your Tivo's scaler.

You are doing everyone in Denver a disservice by stating that KCNC's signal
is OK. It is broken, and it will stay broken until KCNC has the will to fix it.
It's understandable that you have decreased motivation to call KCNC since
these lines, the lines your tuner is tuning in, are being filtered out by your
particular combo of tuner/display, so you aren't actually see what your tuner
is detecting. Ksellers, however, does have a
pressing reason to call in, and thereby contribute
to a fix. If you had been keeping up with this thread, you would understand why
it's impossible for this problem to be anything other than a bad signal.

I was only getting 70-75 on KUSA last night, To many pixelation and audio drops to keep watching, This is very rare for me. Usually I receive KUSA at 82-87.

You are doing everyone in Denver a disservice by stating that KCNC's signal
is OK.I am not trying to do any disservice. I was just trying to let ksellers know that he is not setting his Tivo's output to its optimum setting. Thus, may be causing (not helping) diagnose the problem. I will check tonight to see if I get the same issues mentioned on my DLP.

You can't set your OTA receiver to 720p on a native 1080i channel and say "I see problem" Well... what do you expect? Doing this most likely will be creating a problem.

Last night, KUSA during the 10 pm news was unwatchable. Pixelation was too much and had to watch the regular broadcast from D*. But, when I checked my signal strength on my TIVO, it was normal at around 92. So, for me, it was not a strength issue but what they were actually transmitting.

If it is not better tonight, I will let Don Perez know.

Your input is appreciated and you may indeed be correct that its the D*HDTivo's OTA tuner that is the problem (that thought had crossed my mind also) and we may be on a wild-goose chase with KCNC but how can we make such a definite determination? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that its an OTA reception problem? However, I do not recall ever having seen the vertical lines problem prior to around mid-June when I regularly watched CSI on KCNC 4-1 via OTA.

Also, if it were a problem with the D*HDTivo's scalar would it not have manifested itself earlier on and/or on different channels received via OTA such as KUSA NBC 9-1 or KDVR FOX 31-1 etc?

Fwiw, I have a Samsung TS360 HD Receiver that I plan to hook up later this week and see if the problem occurs on it also, especially as it has native resolution passthrough modes.

I know you are trying to help, but you are setting us back implying that this is a D*HDTivo problem,
that it is a 'reception' problem, that it is a 'scalar' problem and therefore
KCNC's signal is not broken, their signal is exactly the same now as before June 10 when all these 'vertical lines' reports started.

I have tested *six* different tuners since that time. None of them had the slightest problem before June 10, 7:15 PM. Now, they ALL show these vertical
lines on KCNC. NBC, FOX, WB, PBS...they show no trace of these lines.

These lines are fixed, like a test pattern, not random. That proves they are synced
to the horizontal sync signal and therefore being created in the video stream, NOT by 'interference', I thought you understood this?

BY reporting on the results of using a different tuner, a Samsung TS360 HD,
you are only 'mudding the waters', causing still more pointless analysis of which
particular tuner/displays cause enable these lines to be seen.
This problem will never, can never be fixed by analysis in a users forum.
So by giving people reason to doubt that KCNC is to blame will
do nothing but delay/stop a fix which only KCNC can provide.

I also experienced dropouts on KUSA last night during the 10:00 news and Leno. My signal was a strong 83-84. My wife said the dropouts were so bad during the 4:00 news yesterday that she switched to SD on E*.

I went ahead and sent Don Perez at KUSA an email telling him about the problem.

I am not trying to do any disservice.

Ok, agreed. But please try to understand my point. Whether or
not someone doesn't/does see these lines on still another tuner/display
como is meaningless. The lines are there, it's a matter of whether or not
they are being obliterated before the viewer actually sees them.
Why does it matter if they are being filtered out by the tuners circuits,
or by the TV's? We have proven that KCNC is responsible, so more
talk is counterproductive.
It's time to stop analyzing this thing to death because this is only
delaying a fix. Even if a person discovers that his tuner's scalar chip is
masking the real problem, what happens if he changes something?
What if he gets a Tivo, or a different tuner, upgrades his display?
These ugly lines may well appear because nobody called KCNC and complained.

I don't want to get into the middle of a fracus regarding KCNC but I thought I'd share the fact that I have noticed no problem with KCNC at all. I have a Dish 811 and watched CSI last night and the PQ and sound were perfect. And I agree that this "problem" isn't going to be fixed on this forum. Just my 2 cents.

I don't want to get into the middle of a fracus regarding KCNC but I thought I'd share the fact that I have noticed no problem with KCNC at all. I have a Dish 811 and watched CSI last night and the PQ and sound were perfect. And I agree that this "problem" isn't going to be fixed on this forum. Just my 2 cents.

You don't have a problem *now* cause you're using a Satellite receiver that
can't record. But what if it occurs to you that for $100, you could turn your
PC into a hi definition TivO? Oh wait...that won't work! All PC tuner cards
show those hideous vertical lines! (:

Do yourself, all Denver viewers a favor, call KCNC about this problem,
303 861 4444 main num, 303 830 6491 engineering.
Also, post a complaint to www.cbs4denver.com/contact

Dave Layne, director of operations, told me in a phone conversation on
July 25 that they will not investigate this because no one is complaining.
Put another way, they will investigate when and if they receive
complaints from people like yourself. Call....NOW

roller11 - you're talking in circles, now. According to you, the problem has nothing to do with whether a receiver can record or not, but then you post what you did in your previous message. Stop muddying the waters! ;)

Seriously, you'd be a lot better off doing a couple of things here:

1. Adjust your attitude about this problem - people (including David and Pat) are a lot more likely to listen to you when you aren't yelling at them. You may very well have done yourself the biggest disservice here with your attacking tone. If you come off like you want to work with them to solve the problem, rather than "you fix this damn problem now or I'll blow up your building", you'll get a whole lot farther.

2. Send David and Pat the screenshots that you originally posted, and then continue sending them screenshots everytime you see the problem (or at least daily).

3. Keep after it, but don't let your frustration impact your message, otherwise your message gets drowned out.

I'd help you out if I could, but as I can't see the problem on my setup, it's not right for me to call them directly and complain about it.

As for the KUSA situation, I sent Don a message last night. He replied back this morning saying that they are looking into it. I saw it start about 3:30 yesterday afternoon.

Mark,

I echo your sentiments. I don't think I can call or email KCNC about a problem I don't have.

Mark,
Do you understand that if you change your tuner/recorder/TVset/display
you will likely go into the "i can see the lines!" group?


1. Adjust your attitude about this problem - people (including David and Pat) are a lot more likely to listen to you when you aren't yelling at them.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that I use an attacking tone with Pat and Dave, I don't. In all my conversations with them, I'm super polite and courteous.
Even after courtesy got me nowhere, I'm still low key and humble.
Obviously, I talk to them very differently than my posts. I'm
'attacking' in this forum because I know KCNC doesn't read these posts.
If you had heard the conversations with Dave, you wouldn't believe that
I'm the same roller11 that posts in avsforum.





2. Send David and Pat the screenshots that you originally posted, and then continue sending them screenshots everytime you see the problem (or at least daily).

The very first thing I did was send them screenshots, long before I reported
this problem to AVSFORUM, back on June 15. Obviously there is no
point in sending still more screenshots.

I understand your attitude, I really do. But you are failing to grasp something critical to
this issue, namely, Dave Layne has told me directly that he isn't going to lift a finger until more people report this problem. In other words, my attitude
has nothing to do with this, doesn't affect anything. Peoples' technical analysis of the problem is equally pointless given that we have proven the problem is
100% KCNC's fault.
Who in this forum (who isn't seeing these lines) can swear they will never
change tuners, get a Tivo, or upgrade their display/TV set? When they do, they'll see these lines and think, "hum...maybe I should have called KCNC".

This is about Dave Layne's attitude of denial, not my attitude.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that I use an attacking tone with Pat and Dave, I don't. In all my conversations with them, I'm super polite and courteous.
Even after courtesy got me nowhere, I'm still low key and humble.
Obviously, I talk to them very differently than my posts. I'm
'attacking' in this forum because I know KCNC doesn't read these posts.


I don't know why you think members of this forum deserve your "attacking." Although I'm in Fort Collins, with no access to KCNC, I do hope to see pristine signals from all locals in the future and would like to see any problems resolved. However, your approach in this forum makes me ignore this topic and wish your posts would change their tone or just go away. Prior to these discussions, this forum has largely had respectful and informative dialogues. Let's get back there.

Why are we here not deserving of more polite and courteous treatment from you?

You are deserving, and that's exactly what I gave. Look back at my first post to you.
Look at the first post to Ksellers, very polite. Then, Ksellers made it clear he wasn't calling KCNC, so I asked a little more emphatically.


Based on how this discussion is going I suspect that very few forum members will be inspired to help out. I know I've had just about enough.


Oh PLEASEEEEE, you aren't "helping me out" . This is not about me or my problem,
it's about KCNC. You're doing this cause it is causing you a problem.
No one is going to punish me by putting up with a defect signal from KCNC.
Ksellers, for example, is not thinking "hmm...I hate these lines, I know that
if I call KCNC, they'll be fixed. On the other hand, I need to punish roller11 for
asking me emphatically, so I won't call."


I've put a lot of time and effort into documenting the problem as I've observed it with KCNC but I too am fed up with being attacked.

I've attacked you only once. That led to your phone call to KCNC so it was the right thing to do. Since then, no attacks. I did point out that your post implying KCNC
may not be responsible is counterproductive.

so as to be able to better understand the problem and be able to help KCNC diagnose the problem if/when they contact us. This is not settings things back it is helping move things forward by making sure we know exactly how the problem can be reproduced for explanation or demonstration to KCNC.

Ok, in principal you are right, fair criticism. However, KCNC only needs to know one thing in
order to proceed, and they have known that for 2 weeks now. They need to
know that they must check this with a 1920x1080 non-CRT display. Now that they know how to proceed, they need not get any feedback from us at all.
I don't care if people talk until they are blue in the face, as long as that talk
doesn't fool them into thinking that KCNC isn't culpable.

if I would have had my D*HDTivo receiver set to 1080i I would never have seen the vertical lines problem and would never have gotten myself embroiled in this mess.

You're wrong about that. *everybody* who gets KCNC's signal is "embroiled
in this mess", at least potentially. And what about the future? Are you saying that
you will never upgrade to a 1920x1080 display? Or go to a different Tivo?

If you had been keeping up with this thread, .. Wow - You've got a lot of nerve talking that way. Ernie's probably read 20 times more of this thread than you have!
This problem will never, can never be fixed by analysis in a users forum. Then you should probably drop the subject now and stop wasting thread space.
I'm 'attacking' in this forum because I know KCNC doesn't read these posts.You're wrong (again). The stations lurk. Maybe not everyday, but they do read. They may skip your posts, though.:)
Peoples' technical analysis of the problem is equally pointless given that we have proven the problem is 100% KCNC's fault.Do you know who you are talking to here? There are people that frequent this thread that are actually in the broadcast and satellite industries. And I don't think you have proven to anyone, David Layne included, that the issue is KCNC's fault.

I've got several receivers and displays and have not seen the artifact your so adamant about. We are all allowed our opinion in this forum, just as you are. And I am not as convinced as you are that certain receiver/scalar display combinations are masking the issue as opposed to creating the issue.

Didn't you say a while back that David or Pat were going to visit your house to see the issue?

Well folks, I am not going to try and over react but I've had about enough of roller 11. Ron, you've summed up the salient points quite nicely. Roller please modify your tone a bit or leave the forum to the rest of us who up to now have respected each other opinions even though we've not been in total agreement in the past.

Roller,

We're not dismissing you or your problem... yet, but as you can read, many are at the brink of helping.

Lord knows, we've been through so many problems (video, audio, PSIP, etc) that I've lost count. And many of us have been through this for waaaaaay longer than you've had your HD display.

If you keep up the 'tough' tone, nobody's gonna' help.

P.S. Thanks Ron!

Well said Geof.

For those of you not very familiar with the Vbulliten software, you can screen out users' posts that you don't want to read. Under the UserCP link at the top of the page, and then under the Miscellaneous heading on the left side of the UserCP page, there is an option called "Buddy / Ignore Lists". If you place a user in the Ignore List, you will never see another post from them again.

I don't use this feature much myself, but FYI, it is available.

Roller, then maybe if you took a less attacking tone with us then, you'd probably get more support. I know that I have no intention of picking up a 1080p display device to replace my 1080i CRT set anytime in the near future, so I will remain in the blissfully ignorant category of not being able to see the lines for the foreseeable future. But, like I said, I cannot currently complain about something to KCNC that I don't see.

And, you are dead wrong about the stations not reading this forum. There are multiple people from each station (with the possible exception of KMGH) that read this forum very frequently because they have appreciated our input in the past.

We are located in Lakewood around 6th and Garrison. We have D* setup with two Hughes HIRD E86 STB's, one in our main room and one in our master bedroom. The main room E86 is connected to a Mitsubishi CRT and the master bedroom E86 is connected to a Panasonic Plasma. We receive KUSA 9-1 and 9-2 via over the air antennas on both sets.

As of last night we have not been able to receive KUSA without seeing major pixelization and dropouts, basically KUSA digital channels 9-1 and 9-2 are unwatchable. Signal strength on both sets are all over the meter. Before last night and ever since KUSA began broadcasting in HD we have constantly received a signal strength of 100. From our observation KUSA might be having some issues on their side. Comments

rmaestas,

Yeah, we're all having problems with KUSA-DT reception the last couple of days. markdl posted earlier that they're aware of, and trying to fix, the situation. Unfortunately, this thread seems to have been kind of overrun the last little while, and mark's post is probably lost in that mess somewhere.

If you'd like to contact the station, Bob Perez is the director of engineering there. He (like all the local engineers) is always interested in our feedback.

Yep KUSA still is dropping out on OTA( 95% signal). Comcast is ok.

Now, for the vertical line thing. I have a Sony GWII LCD. I was not seeing anything OTA(voom rec.) or with my Moto 6412 via comcast. The voom rec. is set to native & the 6412 is set to 1080i. Tonight when NCIS started I switched both to 720p. Both rec's show the vertical lines. The voom rec. was the worse!!!!!!!!!!!!! I meen it was really bad on reds & the skin tones were not much better. The 6412 had showed the lines too but not as bad. Over all 720p looked terrible compared to 1080i though.
So I'd have to say there is something wrong with KCNC's signal.

Just wanted to add that up here in Longmont 16.1 and 16.2 both lock at 75% (E*811) but no video or audio...nada...nothing. I hope they get the bug worked out before the Nascar race at Indy this Sunday.

Geez...I'd take vertical lines any day over this problem.

OK, sorry, bad joke...just frustrated as most with the board tone lately. I know KUSA is working on it and I have confidence they'll get it worked out....

FYI: No lines on KCNC-HD on my Dish 921 (Both native 1080i or 720p) into a Marantz HD2 1280x720 DLP.

KUSA appears to be back up and running within the last 15 minutes or so.

KUSA back up here as well..... :)

When KUSA was up again during the 10 PM news last night, I thought the PQ was actually a little better than before. Maybe it is just me or maybe their 9-2 channel wasn't yet up giving all the bandwidth to 9-1.

Don Perez reported back to me this morning with the reason for the problem:

"There was a local oscillator issue in the MW transmitter. This was likely starting to go south for sometime….thanks"

Helps to cooperate nicely with the local stations to fix and improve their HD signal!

Quote:
Look at the first post to Ksellers, very polite. Then, Ksellers made it clear he wasn't calling KCNC, so I asked a little more emphatically.

Roller,

I don't appreciate you putting words into my mouth. I never indicated in any way that I wasn't going to call KCNC. In fact I did try to call them on the number that you supplied but it was after hours and all I got got was a machine that said to call back later. I then contacted them using the form on their website.

I agree with the others that say that your heavy handed antics on this forum will get you very little sympathy from those whom have been reading and posting for the past several years. As for myself, since the 1080i output doesn't have the problem on my set and your pushy attitude, I am not going to call KCNC again ( I was planning to do it today).

Thanks to the rest of you,

Kurt

I spent Sat. A.M. wandering the top of my roof, yard, etc, looking for the rumored 17...I was not able to find it. A check of antennaweb.org shows KMGH at 138 deg. and KUSA at 135 deg, so from my perspective that puts KMGH directly behind the western edge of the downtown skyscrapers -- my antenna can't see what isn't there.

Yes, but your antenna may be able to get reflections. Antennaweb says channel 17 is BLUE for me, which may be why I was able to barely lock their signal a few weeks ago while experimenting. What color is 17 for your location? I know that antennaweb's "Antenna Type" ratings are often at odds with reality (e.g., they rate 38 as RED for me and it is one of my stronger signals, while they rate 46 as LT. GREEN and it is my weakest signal other than 17).

However, in playing around with relocating my position around my neighborhood on the antennaweb map, I found out that my house is in some sort of reflective zone that pops 17 to BLUE. It stays BLUE as one moves in a line further away from 17, but drops to VIOLET almost everywhere moving closer to the source. That's odd since I'm on low ground at the Ralston Creek bed with a ridge line between me and 17. On top of the ridge is VIOLET.

So, AwesomeFloyd, the gist of this is to check out your neighborhood on the antennaweb map. I'd guess that if you are in a VIOLET zone, you are probably SOL on getting 17, but w/ BLUE, it should be possible. I'm just SOL on 17 until I can figure out how to catch enough of its signal from some new set up in my attic. But, I'm working on it.

CEB,

17 is voilet for me. I'm coming to grips with the reality that I'll be staring at MNF in glorious 480i one last season. Good luck with your project -- I'll be over for game 1 on Sept. 8th ;-)

...So, AwesomeFloyd, the gist of this is to check out your neighborhood on the antennaweb map. I'd guess that if you are in a VIOLET zone, you are probably SOL on getting 17, but w/ BLUE, it should be possible. I'm just SOL on 17 until I can figure out how to catch enough of its signal from some new set up in my attic. But, I'm working on it.
Since we all know that antennas are basically an art(luck might be a better word), and AntennaWeb uses a computer program attempting to replicate said art, I wouldn't rely on the results it presents.

For my location I get:
There are no digital stations predicted to serve this location.
Depending on the specifics of your installation, though, you may be able to receive some signals.
When in reality I get 4(most of the time), 5(Cheyenne), 6, 7 & 12(38.*). And, of course, since the software thinks that I'm blind, I don't get any neat colors to look at.
....jc

Rob, the primary HD video server for all of KCNC HD programs has been at Panasonic for repairs. It arrived back this week and we put it on-line this afternoon. It is in theory, an exact mirror image of the back-up server we have been using for the past six months while our primary server was being repaired.
Say what? What if they both go down during football season? 6 months?

No, wait! I get it! It's another shortage of workers in the US. More work visas. More work visas. More work visas.

But there is the possibility that the unit was shipped back to Japan?

I didn't realize that they had the 'severe' labor shortage that we do.
...jc

Since we all know that antennas are basically an art(luck might be a better word), and AntennaWeb uses a computer program attempting to replicate said art, I wouldn't rely on the results it presents.

I wasn't implying that antennaweb is the last word regarding reception. I noted my exceptions to their ratings as well. What I was trying to convey is one possible explanation for why I see a lockable signal in Arvada for channel 17, while almost everyone else considers Arvada a "dead zone" for KMGH reception.

After learning a little more about the software simulation in antennaweb, I merely experimented with it to see what is different about my location versus other nearby Arvada locations. The fact that a house in a direct line, quarter mile closer to the channel 17 signal, and a good 30 feet higher in elevation has a lesser reception rating than I do, tells me something is at work here. I just wanted to pass those findings on to awesomefloyd, who had taken up the challenge of trying to receive channel 17 in Arvada.

What's up with channel 46 (53.01) tonight. Did they get an increase in power on their FCC license? I usually lock them in the low 60s because of their 38 mile distance and my lack of a LOS to them, but tonight I'm getting a signal in the mid-80s.

I used to be able to receive 53 once in a great while when the planets were in alignment and the weather and lighting were just right. But lately I’ve been getting nothing from them.

What does 53 broadcast anyway? Every time I’ve been able to get a hold of their signal an episode of “Leave it to Beaver” was on.

Ernie's probably read 20 times more of this thread than you have!

>>His comments contradict your statement,


Then you should probably drop the subject now and stop wasting thread space.

>>You've got it backwards...analysis isn't helping, my comments have helped.

The stations lurk.


>>Dave Layne told me " Nobody in the Universe is seeing these lines but you".
>>He said this to me after posts by, akastp, durvivor, ksellers, etc. hence >>proof my statement is accurate.

Maybe not everyday, but they do read. They may skip your posts, though.:)

>>Do "they" also skip ksellers and akastp?


I don't think you have proven to anyone, David Layne included, that the issue is KCNC's fault.

>>Wrong again. I've sent KCNC personnel screen shots. Dave Layne has >>promised time and again to review my evidence, ditto akastp. Broken every >>promise so far.


I've got several receivers and displays and have not seen the artifact your so adamant about.

>>So now you are accusing akastp, ksellers, pinballer, and durvivor of lying,
>>of conspiring to perpatrate a hoax on this forum. What do they gain by this?


And I am not as convinced as you are that certain receiver/scalar display combinations are masking the issue as opposed to creating the issue.

>>It must be frustating that you lack the technical expertise to understand >>concepts of 'filtering', 'downscaling', 'upconverting'. Perhaps you should stick >>with threads you can understand.



Didn't you say a while back that David or Pat were going to visit your house to see the issue?

Yes, another broken promise by Dave, which is sort of the point.

Well, actually I'm on the brink of buying one of the new 1080p Samsung TVs. When I do so I had planned on setting my D*HDTivo output to 1080i so the TV only needs to deinterlace and not scale like the 720p TV had to. As the D*HDTivo does not seem to produce the vertical lines on the 1080i setting with the 720p TV it will be interesting to see if it does with the 1080p TV.


Hopefully KCNC will have fixed the problem by then.

What does 53 broadcast anyway? Every time I’ve been able to get a hold of their signal an episode of “Leave it to Beaver” was on.That's the good stuff, in the afternoons from 3-6 they show some classic TV from 50's and 60's.

It goes downhill after that. Infomercials for nutrition supplements seem to be the biggest part of their lineup. There's a TBN-style relgious show (Harvest) that's on a lot. Occasionally they will simulcast ESPN broadcasts of collegiate basketball/football which may be worth something if they happen to be your teams.

Were they (53) not on on the same orientation from my house as Republic Plaza, I doubt I would ever have heard of them.

I noticed their signal was AWOL for a few days last week and then came back. No idea whether the problem was on their end or mine.

Update: No vertical lines observed this evening during King Of Queens, Still Standing or CSI:NY.

CSI:NY can be very difficult to observe these lines,so it is a poor test vehicle.
However, Still standing and King of Queens will reveal the problem if it's there.

However, the HD quality this evening did not seem to be quite as good as it usually is. Could that possibly mask the vertical lines?

Hard to say, but I doubt that lower quality would have any effect since this is not a quality artifact. Hopefullly we haven't traded one problem for another problem.

As to the theory that their alternate server is responsible, remember that this problem started on June 10, not six months ago. Based on the timing, I'd say
that's not it. I'm out of town until Aug.17, so I can't verify anything until then.
As always, many thanks for the service you've provided to the entire Denver viewing area.



As for David Layne and KCNC...I've exchanged several productive messages with Dave during the past week regarding this problem and I have to say that he has been polite, attentive and responsive. It is clear (at least to me) that Dave and KCNC are really trying to resolve this problem.[/QUOTE]

I used to be able to receive 53 once in a great while when the planets were in alignment and the weather and lighting were just right. Speaking of fringe stations, has anyone else noticed some anomalies in the broadcast for channel 15 (Telefutura, analog 14)? For a while their data stream remapped the channel id as "443-1", which drove my Samsung receiver nuts. They seem to have fixed that, but now I notice that when I switch to 15 the receiver gets an immediate signal lock but there is about a 30 second delay before I get any picture or audio.

I wasn't implying that antennaweb is the last word regarding reception.
I didn't take it that way. AntennaWeb is a nice tool. Direction and distance are fairly easy calculations. It's when you throw in elevations, especially obstructions between you and the transmitter, that the calculations get complex. Possibly too complex for them to deal with.

I was just stating my situation, where the software indicates that I'm SOL.
....jc

As far as I'm cocerned it's fixed. Last night & the night before there were NO lines. The night before during NCIS when I decided to check this out I saw them very clearly at 720p on both my OTA & comast rec's. It was posted that they swapped out there main server Wed. which to me seems to have solved the problem so far.

Well, their alt. server could have had something go wrong with it on June 10th. Remember it's been used for 6 months. They swapped in the repaired sever on Wed.

Wed. night & since everythings been looking good to me now. So yes, It could have been the other server.









As to the theory that their alternate server is responsible, remember that this problem started on June 10, not six months ago. Based on the timing, I'd say
that's not it. I'm out of town until Aug.17, so I can't verify anything until then.
As always, many thanks for the service you've provided to the entire Denver viewing area.

Yep, got basically the same e-mail.:)

That's the good stuff, in the afternoons from 3-6 they show some classic TV from 50's and 60's.

It goes downhill after that. Infomercials for nutrition supplements seem to be the biggest part of their lineup. There's a TBN-style relgious show (Harvest) that's on a lot. Occasionally they will simulcast ESPN broadcasts of collegiate basketball/football which may be worth something if they happen to be your teams.

Were they (53) not on on the same orientation from my house as Republic Plaza, I doubt I would ever have heard of them.

I noticed their signal was AWOL for a few days last week and then came back. No idea whether the problem was on their end or mine.

I lost them last week also, but they haven't come back for me. I did a rescan and still nothing. I use to get them fairly strong but now I show a zero.

I lost them last week also, but they haven't come back for me. I did a rescan and still nothing. I use to get them fairly strong but now I show a zero.

Yes, zero here also this afternoon. That power spike I noted last night must have been the flame out before the crash. Either that or they are experimenting.

Now doesn't that just frost you! Some podunk station (no offense to those living in C. Rock) works on their digital broadcasting, but KMGH is satisfied to be the joke of Denver's digital revolution.

Regarding the channel 15 signal, I don't even get a sniff of it here in Arvada. I guess I might at least see the signal if I pointed an antenna at Boulder, but why would I bother.

Anyone notice that KBDI is back at channels 12-1, -2, and -3 instead of their actual broadcast channel? I saw it last night when I clicked on 38-1 in my Favorites list. The program came in, but the channel 38-1 entry in my Favorites disappeared. Re-enter channel 12-1 in my Favorites and all is well.

That's the good stuff, in the afternoons from 3-6 they show some classic TV from 50's and 60's.

It goes downhill after that. Infomercials for nutrition supplements seem to be the biggest part of their lineup. There's a TBN-style relgious show (Harvest) that's on a lot. Occasionally they will simulcast ESPN broadcasts of collegiate basketball/football which may be worth something if they happen to be your teams.
...

Sounds interesting, I love those old TV shows (well, except for the infomercials and the religious shows. Those, I can do without).

I might mess with my antenna and see if I can get a better signal from them. I can get their analog signal, but it’s pretty hard to watch.

So it would appear that several of us reported the problem to KCNC, they've taken notice, addressed the problem and David Layne has responded favorably to us. I would say that is indicative of someone who cares. Its sometimes just a matter of getting past the initial "no-one else has complained" problem.

Have you any comments or updates about your eariler post in
which you reported that the overall quality was degraded?

As you pointed out, there is huge variance in graininess.
The short list of progs with no graininess at all are:
Still Standing, Yes Dear, Listen Up, Center of the Universe, Joan of Arcadia,
Young and the Restless

Next are a few that are somewhat grainy:
CSI:, CSI: Miami, Without a Trace

Very Grainy:
Everything else... Raymond, 2.5 men, NCIS, Judging Amy, King of Queens, CSI:NY,
Jag, Numbers, Cold Case.

IT occurs to me that perhaps this variation in graininess is due to the server,
or because of some factor at KCNC. Can you tell us if the same graininess
is evident on your satellite feed, I think you said it is a West Coast affiliate?

Also, could you check one of the "no graininess at all" progs and
report on overall quality?

Tremendous job, as always.

We've made it. Football finally is making it's way back onto airways. Last night the NFL channel broadcast a live exibition game(Bills vs Packers). This morning at 3:00am(MDT) ESPN2 broadcast the 1st NFL preseason game from Japan(Falcons vs Colts). This afternoon at 4:00pm(MDT) the game will be rebroadcast on ESPN(HD too). And Monday the 1st preseason MNF game will be broadcast.

After 6 months, there are indeed signs of life on this rock.
....jc

IT occurs to me that perhaps this variation in graininess is due to the server,
or because of some factor at KCNC. Can you tell us if the same graininess
is evident on your satellite feed, I think you said it is a West Coast affiliate?

Also, could you check one of the "no graininess at all" progs and
report on overall quality?


Has it occurred to you that the graininess may be present in those shows because that's the way those shows' directors and producers intend for them to be seen? The amount of graininess in a program is almost always there directly at the behest of the people making the show. They put it in intentionally to give their show a film-like look, rather than an HD-Video look (like you have with The Young and the Restless). Graininess is not a KCNC problem.

CEB & TPW, mucho thanks for the comments. If it weren't for helpful suggestions from all the people on this forum I very much doubt that I'd have any local HD at all. No, I still don't have 17 but I have a better understanding of the situation than I did before. I got out a map of the area and drew some lines, 1 between my house and KMGH and another between CEB's aprox location & KMGH. Very telling. My line passes to the right of Auraria campus, CEB's to the left. The difference in downtown skyline on these to lines is dramatic; on my line there's lotsa big buildings, including the big sucker just NW of KMGH while CEB's line seems to run the gauntlet between Mile High and Elitch's.

Oh well, at least I discovered some pretty cool maps on Google. KMGH sucks.

I got out a map of the area and drew some lines, 1 between my house and KMGH and another between CEB's aprox location & KMGH. Very telling. My line passes to the right of Auraria campus, CEB's to the left. The difference in downtown skyline on these to lines is dramatic; on my line there's lotsa big buildings, including the big sucker just NW of KMGH while CEB's line seems to run the gauntlet between Mile High and Elitch's.

Oh well, at least I discovered some pretty cool maps on Google. KMGH sucks.

What was your link to the mapping? Thus far all of the topo mapping links I've found on the net have led me to some rather laborious and unfruitful tracking (no way to follow my azimuth across multiple increments of USGS topo maps from or to my location and KMGH). I'm curious to see what you used that gave you the detail you described. BTW, my azimuth to KMGH is 120 degrees.

Channel 46 (53-1) back on the air last night and this morning (lots of home and garden stuff on Saturday morning) at over 80 signal strength. I wonder if they went full power? If so, wouldn't they be the first metro station to do so?

I agree that the graininess of the prime time shows on KCNC are mostly the result of choices made by those who filmed the show. I don't agree that 2.5 Men or JAG are particularly grainy. On my set, Sammy DLP, 2.5 Men PQ comes across as near video clarity. As alway YMMV!

What was your link to the mapping?
CEB, try this link. (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapbrowse-tbl) It's a nifty little toy.

I really haven't had the time to track any obstructions that I've got. But, when my tower climbing friend gets back from vacation, it'll be time to upgrade my antenna, and I may use the 'toy'.
....jc

Channel 46 (53-1) back on the air last night and this morning (lots of home and garden stuff on Saturday morning) at over 80 signal strength. I wonder if they went full power?!KWHD definitely has a stronger signal now. On my Samsung receiver they show the same number of bars as the Republic Plaza stations, even though they are twice as far away. My SASEM PC receiver reports 22-25 db, where it used to show only 15-18 db.

Doesn't meet my definition of full-power yet though (receivable with an indoor antenna) - only KWGN and KDVR pass that test.

Just to see what's new out there, I just reprogrammed my Mits(best receiver). What's unusual is that it did not program 32(KDVR) or 34(KWGN), however for the 1st time it programmed 21(KFCT). It also programed 10(KKTV - Springs which is rare) coming in thru the rear of the antenna, and 16(KUSA which is pretty common).

Programmed doesn't mean viewable. But it's interesting that it even saw KFCT.
....jc

Try "Google maps" then enter your address and then click satellite.

Hello everyone. I have been loosely watching the thread because I will be moving to Loveland in the next couple weeks and everything that I see about HD reception is fairly depressing. In fact it reminds, quite painfully, of just a couple of years ago out here in CA with all the efforts that were required to pick up signals. Is it as bad as it sounds out there. Does anyone get to watch ABC in HD. Is OTA even an option. I love my HDtivo but no enough to miss programing in HD if available by other means ie: OTA or cable. Has anyone had any luck with either of the Sat. providers and are currently receiving HD national channels and if so how do you get it done. Please don't hold the CA thing against me the good ones like me are fleeing because we don't fit in out here.

Hello CLC29! I can’t answer any of your questions as I’m not in Loveland and don’t know what kind of signal strength can be had up there.

I just wanted to say welcome to Colorado, and the HD reception here is as bad as it sounds!

Hello everyone. I have been loosely watching the thread because I will be moving to Loveland in the next couple weeks and everything that I see about HD reception is fairly depressing. In fact it reminds, quite painfully, of just a couple of years ago out here in CA with all the efforts that were required to pick up signals. Is it as bad as it sounds out there. Does anyone get to watch ABC in HD. Is OTA even an option. I love my HDtivo but no enough to miss programing in HD if available by other means ie: OTA or cable. Has anyone had any luck with either of the Sat. providers and are currently receiving HD national channels and if so how do you get it done. Please don't hold the CA thing against me the good ones like me are fleeing because we don't fit in out
here.

Welcome, I'm in Longmont, which is 15 mins south of Loveland. You have 0 chance of getting OTA ABC HD up there right now. It is not carried by any cable or Sat service as of yet (unless you register your address in some other part of the country and get a distant feed thru a sat provider). KRDO is the ABC station in Colorado Springs. They are digital now but are suppose to go HD some time this fall. It is unlikely we will see their signal because of the Palmer divide south of Denver. This and curvature of the earth would probably block their signal anyway. Sorry for the bad news. It is about par for the course in Denver. :(

Symbios and Sunshinedawg thank you for kind words and welcome. Sorry to hear thing are as bad as I feared. But the one really positive thing is HD or not CO going to be better the CA. I thought having an Aunt that lives in Estes Park was cool because of things like RMNP now it might just prove to be useful as well. Just might need to cancel my directv move order and use her address for my account to get the national network HD's. I have read a lot about tower issues causing the OTA HD problems are there really people that think towers will fall down and cables will "whip" in to homes and stuff like that. I thought CA was were all the really "wacked" elected officals were that would buy into stuff like that.

CLC29, Welcome to Co. and the forum, Good luck with your set up in Loveland.

I have read a lot about tower issues causing the OTA HD problems are there really people that think towers will fall down and cables will "whip" in to homes and stuff like that. I thought CA was were all the really "wacked" elected officals were that would buy into stuff like that.
Unfortunately, there are a few people who have scaremongered that entire area into thinking that TV towers are a menace, not a service, to the general public. For some really whacked out perspectives, check out their website: www.c-a-r-e.org Some of their rhetoric is unbelievable. The general thinking here is that they want the towers to disappear so their property values will rise. They're using scare tactics to try to achieve the elimination of the historical tower farm on Lookout Mt - which predates most of their home purchases, BTW.

Thank you TheBert, the one thing going for me is I have been down the "set up" road one time before here in the Sacramento area so I know what not to try.
dr_mal thank you for the link I will check it out. Sound like some the the "BAD" Californias have already made their way there, sorry about that, they are the ones people like me are trying to flee from here.

I thought having an Aunt that lives in Estes Park was cool because of things like RMNP now it might just prove to be useful as well. Just might need to cancel my directv move order and use her address for my account to get the national network HD's.

First, welcome to the group and almost to Colorado!

Using Estes Park won't help you much with DirecTv. I "moved" to Winter Park a few months ago thinking that it would help me get all the networks in HD. It doesn't. The new rules they have in place changed all that. They told me that they were giving me SD channels and that's all they needed to supply. I do get the national CBS and Fox stations because they are O & O.

As for your situation in Loveland, depending on what part of town you are in, you for sure will be able to get CBS out of Cheyenne, Wyoming (KGWN 5-1) and Fox out of Denver or Ft. Collins (31-1). That may be it for HD. There is a PBS channel that you will be able to get, but it doesn't do HD yet. You will be on the fringe for the Denver NBC and CBS (I live 10 miles from Loveland and can't get them).

Oh, and if you were thinking of going to the dark side (cable), comcast doesn't offer HD in the northern part of the state, so we are out of luck. Getting the Denver HD locals on DirecTv (hopefully the end of this year or early next) is our only hope...

Good luck with the move!

As for your situation in Loveland, depending on what part of town you are in, you for sure will be able to get CBS out of Cheyenne, Wyoming (KGWN 5-1) and Fox out of Denver or Ft. Collins (31-1). That may be it for HD. There is a PBS channel that you will be able to get, but it doesn't do HD yet. You will be on the fringe for the Denver NBC and CBS (I live 10 miles from Loveland and can't get them).


He should also be able to get KWGN WB 2-1. It's probably the strongest signal here in Fort Collins.

He should also be able to get KWGN WB 2-1. It's probably the strongest signal here in Fort Collins.

Yup, he should. I forgot to mention that one but I get a strong signal.

Does anyone know if KGWN in Cheyenne will give me problems with the CBS HD waiver? I have E* coming out to install a 2nd dish at the 148 bird, in hopes of getting KCBS-HD from L.A. I thought I had read before that they were not doing it anymore.

I emailed Channel 53 about the signal increase on their DTV channel 46. They replied back that they did go to full power and asked me to respond to some questions about their signal and my location/set-up. When I do, I'll ask them to confirm that they have in fact gone to the 300-kw on their full-power license.

They also said that their current signal should be even better than it was the middle of last week because of some other things they did. I don't see that. In fact, they actually seem to be down a couple of points (now 79 to 80 vs 80 to 82 before) on my Dish 811.

Does anyone know if KGWN in Cheyenne will give me problems with the CBS HD waiver? I have E* coming out to install a 2nd dish at the 148 bird, in hopes of getting KCBS-HD from L.A. I thought I had read before that they were not doing it anymore.

I don't know about now, but in May of 2004, they gave me the waiver no problem. Do you even need one at your location?

I don't know about now, but in May of 2004, they gave me the waiver no problem. Do you even need one at your location?

I don't know why, but yes.

Dish Tech would not let me do anything, until I go through that process. She said she put in my address, and it requires a waiver, since I am in their B area. I have only seen KGWN 1 time, when I first got my new antenna, and it only lasted a day. My Sony STB barely would get a signal, and my 921 doesn't have a prayer. I hate the Digital OTA tuner in that thing.

Thanks guys for all the "good" info. But, hey live isn't just about HD tv, it will all come together in time. I will really miss watch "Lost" in HD though.

Anyway still need to get finished packing the moving van comes this weekend and we'll be heading out. See you all on the other side (the Divide, that is)

T-minus 3 weeks to the LCGII decision. (Watching too much NASA channel I guess)

AkaStp reported that after the supposed fix of the vertical
lines problem in KCNC's signal, the pic quality was degraded.
He didn't eloborate except to say CSI:NY was more grainy than usual.
Anyone notice this degradation?
I'm asking because I'm away from Denver now and can't see for myself.

T-minus 3 weeks to the LCGII decision. (Watching too much NASA channel I guess)T-3 weeks to the HEARING. I'll be really surprised if we get any kind of definitive decision out of this round, just positioning for the next court fight.

Well, if we get a 'no', then we will know it won't be until at least '09. If we get a 'yes', then maybe LCG can at least get the grass mowed on Lookout before the next injunction is filed!

I'm just a hopeless romantic.

;)

Does anyone know if KGWN in Cheyenne will give me problems with the CBS HD waiver? I have E* coming out to install a 2nd dish at the 148 bird, in hopes of getting KCBS-HD from L.A. I thought I had read before that they were not doing it anymore.



I tried to get a second dish installed in early June because I wanted to get KCBS-HD on the west coast and I can't receive CBS HD OTA and they (E*)said that I didn't qualify and they (E*) didn't have to provide an HD signal to me.

I tried to get a second dish installed in early June because I wanted to get KCBS-HD on the west coast and I can't receive CBS HD OTA and they (E*)said that I didn't qualify and they (E*) didn't have to provide an HD signal to me.

That stinks. I wonder if the difference between Longmont and 120th is the difference between their "A" and "B" area. They (e*) have said I could get it, as long as I got the waiver.

Start having your bill sent to my house, and I'll forward it to you. (joke)

Have you looked in to those "Canadian Residence" options? I think there are 2 services you can use to do that.

roller11 - you should check out this thread, even though the issue with the KCNC vertical lines problem appears to be fixed. It's not the same problem you saw, but an interesting discussion anyway.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=543319

I don't know why, but yes.

Dish Tech would not let me do anything, until I go through that process. She said she put in my address, and it requires a waiver, since I am in their B area. I have only seen KGWN 1 time, when I first got my new antenna, and it only lasted a day. My Sony STB barely would get a signal, and my 921 doesn't have a prayer. I hate the Digital OTA tuner in that thing.

I'm a DirecTV subscriber, so it might work a bit different, but all I did was e-mail KGWN with my request and D* account number. A day later I received an e-mail saying they had just faxed my waiver to D*. I then called and had the west coast feed of CBS turned on.

I'm a DirecTV subscriber, so it might work a bit different, but all I did was e-mail KGWN with my request and D* account number. A day later I received an e-mail saying they had just faxed my waiver to D*. I then called and had the west coast feed of CBS turned on.

Cool! Is there a standard form I need to e-mail them, or do I just write a blank e-mail explaining the situation?

Thanks a bunch!

I tried to get a second dish installed in early June because I wanted to get KCBS-HD on the west coast and I can't receive CBS HD OTA and they (E*)said that I didn't qualify and they (E*) didn't have to provide an HD signal to me.

I'm also in Longmont and I was able to get the CBS feed from E* after getting the waiver from KGWN. That was over a year ago so maybe something has changed.

I got confirmation that channel 46 (53.1) went to their licensed full power, 300-kw ERP, last week. This will be nice in a couple of months when they carry some of the local college football games.

Don't know that you E* subs heard about today's "quarterly earnings call", but apparently Charlie Ergen told the market analysts that E* would rather lose existing subs than give them upgrade deals (I'm guessing this is about all the existing E* subs who want to lease a 942, but can't). His reasoning is that it would be wasted cost as E* would have to swap those customers into an MPEG-4 STB shortly. Not what one wants to hear if one is dying to get 942 HD DVR, but good news to know that E* plans to ease the cost of transition to MPEG-4 for existing subs.

Cool! Is there a standard form I need to e-mail them, or do I just write a blank e-mail explaining the situation?

Thanks a bunch!
I finally called D* just now and they transferred me to their HD Eligibility Group. The rep there said the rules changed last December. The process now is that they'll send waiver requests to each of the local stations (we know ABC and NBC will blanket deny any waiver requests, but she said their process was to request waivers from all the networks anyway). The local stations then individually respond to D*. The whole thing is supposed to take 45 days :(

Theoretically, KCNC and KDVR will auto-approve the waiver requests and it won't take the full 45 days, but I'm not holding my breath. I fully expect D* to mess up and request SD and HD waivers and end up getting declined.

I finally called D* just now and they transferred me to their HD Eligibility Group. The rep there said the rules changed last December. The process now is that they'll send waiver requests to each of the local stations (we know ABC and NBC will blanket deny any waiver requests, but she said their process was to request waivers from all the networks anyway). The local stations then individually respond to D*. The whole thing is supposed to take 45 days :(

Theoretically, KCNC and KDVR will auto-approve the waiver requests and it won't take the full 45 days, but I'm not holding my breath. I fully expect D* to mess up and request SD and HD waivers and end up getting declined.

That's too bad. I felt much better making the request myself, explaining exactly what I needed (waiver for HD only). I tried twice to get a waiver from the Cheyenne Fox through D*, and it was a no go. The reason I don't like this is that all I received was a postcard from D* stating that ALL WAIVER REQUESTS WERE DENIED. This included KDVR, which I thought as an O&O would be automatic. My guess is that they did not request HD specific waivers, even though I emphasized it during the call. :(

JackinThornton, I might just try the e-mail approach anyway. There was no form, just a short request for HD waiver and my D* account number. The worst that could happen is that they send you back to your provider. Good luck.

That's too bad. I felt much better making the request myself, explaining exactly what I needed (waiver for HD only). I tried twice to get a waiver from the Cheyenne Fox through D*, and it was a no go. The reason I don't like this is that all I received was a postcard from D* stating that ALL WAIVER REQUESTS WERE DENIED. This included KDVR, which I thought as an O&O would be automatic. My guess is that they did not request HD specific waivers, even though I emphasized it during the call. :(
The only problem with this technique now is that D*'s DNS eligibility system is down (expected up early 2005 :rolleyes: ) and the lady at D* didn't tell me which stations she was requesting waivers from. So even though I *think* I need waivers from the Cheyenne stations, I might not.

Keeping my fingers crossed for the automatic CBS and Fox HD waivers...

That's too bad. I felt much better making the request myself, explaining exactly what I needed (waiver for HD only). I tried twice to get a waiver from the Cheyenne Fox through D*, and it was a no go. The reason I don't like this is that all I received was a postcard from D* stating that ALL WAIVER REQUESTS WERE DENIED. This included KDVR, which I thought as an O&O would be automatic. My guess is that they did not request HD specific waivers, even though I emphasized it during the call. :(

JackinThornton, I might just try the e-mail approach anyway. There was no form, just a short request for HD waiver and my D* account number. The worst that could happen is that they send you back to your provider. Good luck.

This is getting weirder. Back in "the good old days" I had ALL network feeds east and west coast from e*, until they got taken away. However, FOX always remained. I still get the SD east and west national feeds on channels 246 and 247, which is good for NFL season, but it stinks they are not HD. I might try and push the envelope and see if I can get HD Fox feeds once the season kicks in. I pay like 5 bucks extra a month now for the Fox feeds. They even itemize it on my bill.

I tried to get a second dish installed in early June because I wanted to get KCBS-HD on the west coast and I can't receive CBS HD OTA and they (E*)said that I didn't qualify and they (E*) didn't have to provide an HD signal to me.

I would call back and try again if I were you. It ALL depends on the CSR you get. If you get declined, wait 5, and try again. Seems every time I talk to them, I get some sort of different answer. They should have you hold while you talk to them while they punch in your address into their little program to see if you are in the "B" area.

(Shoot, I was trying for top of the next page!)

I got confirmation that channel 46 (53.1) went to their licensed full power, 300-kw ERP, last week. This will be nice in a couple of months when they carry some of the local college football games.
...


I brought my HDTV tuner along with an old 13” CRT monitor up on the roof with me.

I rotated that antenna in every possible direction and still couldn’t get 53. I just don’t get it. They go to full power and now I can't receive them? It just doesn’t add up.

I was able to pick up KCNC and KRMA while I was up there (and I’m about 50miles away from them!), but when I came down and got everything hooked up back inside they were gone. I guess that’s what 150ft of coax with 6 TV’s hooked up will do to a signal.

I think I may have been mistaken and that it was just CSI:NY (which I never watch) that was gainy and probably intentional as someone else mentioned. Last night I watched King Of Queens, Raymond and Two-and-Half Men and all looked very good with no vertical lines or graininess. As far as I'm concerned the problem is fixed. Time to move on. :)

Once again, AkaStp proves to be a great asset to this forum.

AkaStp,

You were checking at both 1080i and 720p settings, right?

roller11 - you should check out this thread, even though the issue with the KCNC vertical lines problem appears to be fixed. It's not the same problem you saw, but an interesting discussion anyway.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=543319

Thanks for the link. I've seen that problem from time to time, don't recall
on what station. Whenever I've seen it, it was that way for a few seconds,
then the station switched to their standard def server. After a while, usually
in the same show, the prob was resolved and back in hi def.

I finally finished my home theater in my basement and installed a second HD Tivo. I was worried that I would lose KMGH because I now have to take the antenna signal through a 5x8 switch and use two diplexors going to my two TVs. Anyway, what I found was that the signal strength on all channels did not get worse, just stayed the same! Wahoo.

The other nit is that I frequently had problems on my first Tivo in that only one of the tuners in it would pick up KMGH. This was a problem when recording ABC shows because I had to make sure the correct tuner was being used beforehand. Anyway, the new Tivo does not have this problem and both tuners pick up KMGH with a 60 strength. I guess I should have asked D* for a replacement while under warranty. Lazy. They now would charge me $299 for a replacement HD Tivo. Too much money for just one problem.

The net of this is that I was fully expecting to have a problem with KMGH due to the splitting of the antenna signal, but I did not. Go figure.

Hey Dennis,

On behalf of all of us who can't get a whiff of KMGH-DT no matter what we try:

We hate you.

Nothing personal :)

Seriously though, it's cool that even with all the extra hoops you still get KMGH. Even better that the 2nd HD TiVo works better for you.

I hope the mods (and members) don't mind being that I am a long-time member and poster on this Denver OTA thread, but...

Because of all of the problems at UAL and the huge pay cuts I have endured, I am forced to sell my home and much of my HT setup. One item I DO NOT want to ship is my Stewart screen.

For Sale: 92" (16x9) Stewart Firehawk Luxus Electriscreen in flawless condition. 12 volt triggered auto extension and retract. White enclosure. PM me if interested. In-home demos available.

Thanks, and I apologize if this voilates forum rules. I will remove the post if anyone is offended.

Jetlag

Hey Dennis,

On behalf of all of us who can't get a whiff of KMGH-DT no matter what we try:

We hate you.

Nothing personal :)
Doc,
Maybe you should band together(with other Denver Hd'ers) and set up an ATV(Amature TV station). I don't know if HD has been done before, but it might be worth a try. See if KMGH will let you rebroadcast their signal on another frequency. This has been done in other cities. You'd need to find someone who can currently receive KMGH, and also has a decent place to broadcast from. Sure it's radical, but what other choices are there?

Because of all of the problems at UAL and the huge pay cuts I have endured, I am forced to sell my home and much of my HT setup. One item I DO NOT want to ship is my Stewart screen.
Just remember the party line folk's: The economy is strong and getting stronger.. If you believe this BS, then you obviously aren't a software person, or an airline employee. :mad:
....jc

Just remember the party line folk's: The economy is strong and getting stronger.. If you believe this BS, then you obviously aren't a software person, or an airline employee. :mad:
....jc

...or someone involved with new product design and manufacturing. :(

Because of all of the problems at UAL and the huge pay cuts I have endured, I am forced to sell my home and much of my HT setup.
Sorry to hear that, Jetlag :(

I'm still probably a year or two away from building a HT in my basement - if I thought it would happen sooner I'd buy the screen.

...or someone involved with new product design and manufacturing. :(
Yep been unemployed along with many other HP and Agilent workers in Northern CO for over 2 years.

Reggie

Just remember the party line folk's: The economy is strong and getting stronger.. If you believe this BS, then you obviously aren't a software person, or an airline employee. :mad:
....jc
or an aerospace engineer. Ball is getting ready to announce some significant layoffs and I understand Lockheed in Waterton will have some as well. Between the shuttle 'repair' program eating up the NASA budget hand over fist, and the lack of additional funding for NASA due to the 'war', numerous NASA programs are slipping out in time or being outright cancelled. Thankfully the economy is getting better (I think that is Bushspeak for 'there are still plenty of openings at BK and McDee's as a fry cook'). Oh well, I guess its 'good times' for anyone in the oil business.

Jetlag
Really sorry to hear about things. Hope you are able to 'land on your feet'. I take it that your moving means your leaving the Denver area?? or just to a lower rent district somewhere else in town?

Staying in Denver for now, but moving out of Washington Park. After having my pay cut by over 60% and helplessly watching as my pension and ESOP stock got vaporized, it's time to move down big-time. Hopefully I can still get KMGH OTA HD in the ghetto.

Going from a 92" diagonal down to 32" is an even easier way to sum it up. I'm glad my CEO got his bonus though, helps me sleep better at night.

OK, time to get back to complaining about the ultra-lame Denver OTA HD!

Bummer :mad: I switched off my E* service, so now I can't even get OTA. :(
Anyone know of an effective & inexpensive OTA receiver (non-E* or D*)? I've only used E* boxes until now. Better yet, anyone got one to get rid of?

You don't need E* service to get OTA w/ an E* HD receiver, at least w/ an 811 receiver. However, you do need to keep it hooked up to your dish and have your dish still pointed at the satellite. The receiver just checks for a satellite connection, like it did when first installed, but didn't have software authorization.

I guess I should have tried my 811 first. Thanks, I did not know that! :o

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has posted to this "OTA-Denver" thread, and has helped me with any questions I've had in regards to OTA HDTV.

I was going to get an outdoor antenna to pick up OTA HDTV signals (like everyone here suggested) but that seemed to be a lot of trouble (as I really didn't want to drill holes in the side of my house and I am in lazy mode lately), so on a whim I picked up an Indoor Amplified Terk TV5 "just to see" if I could get some sort of signal and maybe pull in at least FOX (basically for "24" in HD when it starts up in January). I thought I would have two chances, slim and none, to get something in HD but as it turns out I was able to pick up everythind except ABC (which I knew was going to be impossible from the start).

Here are my readings (at midnight) last night/this morning from my Amplified Terk TV5 OTA Indoor Antenna connected to my HD TiVo DirectTV Receiver (HD10-250):

2-1 WB 85% (DirectTV Frequency 34)
4-1 CBS 85% (DirectTV Frequency 35)
9-1 NBC 69% (DirectTV Frequency 16)
12-1 PBS 51% (DirectTV Frequency 38)
31-1 FOX 82% (DirectTV Frequency 32)

7-1 ABC Forgetaboutit

The stations I was unable to pick up, besides 7-1 (ABC), was 3-1 (CBS), 6-1 (PBS), and 53-1 (Ind.). 31-1 (FOX) was out most of the day put as the evening has gotten closer, I was able to pick up 31-1 just fine with a bit of interference. No worries there because nothing was really on the channel all day I wanted to watch anyway. BTW, I am located atop Grigs Road in Highlands Ranch with the closest cross streets being Grigs and McArthur Blvd (Near the King Soopers). I hated the thought of paying the cable company for their local HD feeds, and I am glad I could bypass them on this one (I absolutely love the high-speed modem service from Comcast, but I am glad an OTA antenna works just fine for local HDTV broadcasts).

Thanks again to everyone, your help has been very much appreciated.

...The stations I was unable to pick up, besides 7-1 (ABC), was 3-1 (CBS), 6-1 (PBS), and 53-1 (Ind.).
3-1???? I know of 4, 5(Cheyenne) & 11(C/S), as CBS stations, but I know of no station remapping to 3.

31-1 (FOX) was out most of the day put as the evening has gotten closer, I was able to pick up 31-1 just fine with a bit of interference.
Interesting, as I was actually able to view it today. I just tried again, and popped up for a few seconds, and then back to nothing.
....jc

After going thru the guided setup to reconfigure the HD10-250 to accept OTA and Satellite Signals, 3-1 is now listed on my channel guide. I can see why it can't be received as the station , KREG-DT, is from Grand Juction, CO...And I thought trying to pick up ABC DT from Denver would be difficult! :)

After going thru the guided setup to reconfigure the HD10-250 to accept OTA and Satellite Signals, 3-1 is now listed on my channel guide. I can see why it can't be received as the station , KREG-DT, is from Grand Juction, CO...And I thought trying to pick up ABC DT from Denver would be difficult! :)
Wow - that's crazy. If you haven't found the "Channels You Receive" configuration page yet, you might want to go there and remove 3-1 from your channel list.

I was so overwhelmingly thrilled to finally get OTA HDTV, and actually stunned I got it, I forgot about doing this. Thanks for the reminder.

Bummer :mad: I switched off my E* service, so now I can't even get OTA. :(
Anyone know of an effective & inexpensive OTA receiver (non-E* or D*)? I've only used E* boxes until now. Better yet, anyone got one to get rid of?

I'm using the USDTV atsc tuner from Wal-Mart ($200).
Works fine, but doesn't sound as fancy as the tuners in the DirectTV or Dish boxes.

Well, I was finally able to receive 53-1. We had some strong winds here on Friday and it swiveled the antenna around to the north (which is sort of creepy) I didn’t think there were any stations over there, but I guess that’s where 53-1 is.

But with the antenna facing north I can’t get ANY other channels. So, I guess no 53 for me. And I don’t dare get a rotator with the winds we get out here. Oh well.

I’m starting to miss my old Radio Shack antenna. This new one (A Channel Master 3671)
is extremely directional.

Symbios,

53.1 is south of you if I recollect where Bennett is. Their transmitter is just outside of Parker. You must have picked up the signal from the back side of your antenna.

Kerncom,

I live fairly close to you, about 2 blocks north of Summit View Elementary. With a small 4 - bow tie antenna, outside, I picked up everything you receive plus 5.1 KGWN from Cheyenne, 6.1 KRMA, 7.1 KMGH, and 29.1 KDEN. I had it mounted ground level on a 15 foot pole attached to my house about halfway up. It didn't even clear the roofline on the south side of my house facing north. I replaced that antenna with a vhf/uhf on my roof so I could feed analog to my other tv's and drop LIL's from E*. (I receive the same DT stations with my new antenna.) It might be worth your effort to go a little bigger on the antenna and maybe outside. Then, you'll be able to catch Monday nite football or, if you're not a football fan, you could watch CBS out of Cheyenne when KCNC pre-empts, like they did tonite, for Broncos football. I also watch 6.1 quite a bit - their HD is outstanding.

Well that's interesting. I can't believe this antenna would even accept a signal from the back.

Anybody else lose HD for the last 35ish laps of the Nascar Nextel Cup race at Watkens Glenn on NBC 9-1 this Sunday afternoon?

Hey folks, I'm new to the forum and new to Colorado.

I posted a question in the Comcast thread, but it seems that thread is fairly quiet. We just moved to Longmont and are building a house here (SW part of town, Clover Basin & 75th). As an incentive, a Panasonic 42" plasma HDTV (sort of) was included for free. So, come December I hope to be watching some HD programming.

However, the distinct impression I am getting is the following:

1. Comcast considers us part of Ft. Collins service area, and all upgrades have been for the Denver area. I have found no indication that upgrades are scheduled for the plant here. Translation: No HD via cable in Longmont for the forseeable future... someone please enlighten me if you know something!

2. W/out Comcast, the only option is OTA - either through the TV or through D* or E* for locals, and if I want 'cable' networks, then comparing packages from D* or E*. The OTA situation is well documented, so I think I'm up to speed on that (unfortunately).

3. Rumor has it one of the sats will have local HD over the dish w/in the next 6 months. Is this a bunch of hot air, or does someone really know what's up with this?

4. There's probably a bunch more crazy, illogical info on this issue but I don't even want to go into it.

So, do I have the basic gist of the situation? Sounds like Longmont is the one area in Boulder county that's pretty much out of luck with local HDTV, thanks to Comcast. I'm not excited about the prospect of going with a satellite company, since we don't watch much beyond sports (me) and craft shows (the wife).

Thanks for any input!

Anybody else lose HD for the last 35ish laps of the Nascar Nextel Cup race at Watkens Glenn on NBC 9-1 this Sunday afternoon?

No not exactly. However it did act up for a few laps ( I think around that time ). When it happened I switched over to 8202 (Dish network). Two fold to show the wife just how much better HD looked (shes a big Tony fan, she agreed HD was much better) and to see if 8202 was also experiencing a problem. It wasn't. Switched back to HD within a couple of laps. HD was working fine once again. No problems from this point on.

3. Rumor has it one of the sats will have local HD over the dish w/in the next 6 months. Is this a bunch of hot air, or does someone really know what's up with this?
DirecTV is going to provide HD locals to 24 cities in the next ??? months. They've launched the first satellite, which was supposed to already be doing HD locals to the first 12 cities (Denver is in the 2nd 12). They've announced (IIRC) November 1 as a start date for the first 12 cities. The 2nd satellite has been delayed and I believe will not launch until October. So don't hold your breath.

Hey folks, I'm new to the forum and new to Colorado.

I posted a question in the Comcast thread, but it seems that thread is fairly quiet. We just moved to Longmont and are building a house here (SW part of town, Clover Basin & 75th). As an incentive, a Panasonic 42" plasma HDTV (sort of) was included for free. So, come December I hope to be watching some HD programming.

However, the distinct impression I am getting is the following:

1. Comcast considers us part of Ft. Collins service area, and all upgrades have been for the Denver area. I have found no indication that upgrades are scheduled for the plant here. Translation: No HD via cable in Longmont for the forseeable future... someone please enlighten me if you know something!

2. W/out Comcast, the only option is OTA - either through the TV or through D* or E* for locals, and if I want 'cable' networks, then comparing packages from D* or E*. The OTA situation is well documented, so I think I'm up to speed on that (unfortunately).

3. Rumor has it one of the sats will have local HD over the dish w/in the next 6 months. Is this a bunch of hot air, or does someone really know what's up with this?

4. There's probably a bunch more crazy, illogical info on this issue but I don't even want to go into it.

So, do I have the basic gist of the situation? Sounds like Longmont is the one area in Boulder county that's pretty much out of luck with local HDTV, thanks to Comcast. I'm not excited about the prospect of going with a satellite company, since we don't watch much beyond sports (me) and craft shows (the wife).

Thanks for any input!

Welcome to Colorado, bkleven!

My recommendation would be the HDTivo (HR10-250), which you can now get for $299 from DirecTv, I'm told. Call them; satellite is better than you think, and maybe, at this time, it is you only alternative.

Beyond the probability of 32-1 (FOX), I don't know about OTA HD from the Longmont area; search this forum for more info.

Yes, according to DirecTv, Denver Local-Into-Local HD feeds should begin early next year, but remember that is an estimate, subject to change. in any case, that estimate is way ahead of whatever will eventually happen to Denver OTA. Search the HD programming section of the AVS forum for "LIL HD".

With the O&O rules, DirecTv will hook you up to the west coast HD feeds for FOX and CBS; that will get you NFL games, including most Bronco HD feeds. ESPN HD will get you more games, including college; ESPN2 HD is rumored very, very soon, in time for college football season.

Of course, with DirecTv you can get HBO, SHO, etc. If you wife wants "craft" shows, Direct offers quite a few channels. One thing I can document is how thoroughly the TiVo technology will change the way you watch TV. It is much, much better than the Comcast version, I am told.

From your explanation, I am assuming you were given an 43" ED plasma display ("sort of" from your post). Not to worry. From 10-12 feet viewing distance, you will not see a difference between an ED and and HD panel. You will be very happy. Search the Plasma section of the AVS forum for your particular Panasonic model; there is great info there, including mounting (wall, above the fireplace, tabletop, etc.) and set up help.

Again, welcome to Colorado and to the forum. Good luck with your decision.

dr_mal, MRinDenver, thanks for the responses.

That sounds somewhat like what I thought, though I heard more optimistic info on the D* local HD over satellite for Denver (which, thankfully, I took with a grain of salt). I think I heard it from someone at Ultimate/Soundtrack, so I wasn't making plans with that info.

Actually, we are getting and HD and not the ED - the reason I said 'sort of' is that the incentive included the ED. However, for not a lot more, we could upgrade to the HD. Thankfully I didn't have too much trouble convincing the wife of the wisdom of that decision. :-) So, we are getting HD, but it wasn't exactly 'free,' just nicely discounted.

I'm hoping someday to get a true 1920x1080 res display (1080p in the jargon, I guess), but that is probably some years down the road since I have a somewhat irrational affinity for OLED.

We have some friends with Tivo, and they swear that is the best thing to ever happen to TV. When I respond that I don't WANT a reason to watch more TV, they inform me that Tivo enables <i>smarter</i> TV watching. I guess I can buy that. I'll look into the HDTivo, but I thought D* and Tivo were parting ways? I'll have to look into that again as well.

Again, thanks for the info!

Welcome to Colorado, bkleven!
...................

Yes, according to DirecTv, Denver Local-Into-Local HD feeds should begin early next year, but remember that is an estimate, subject to change. in any case, that estimate is way ahead of whatever will eventually happen to Denver OTA. Search the HD programming section of the AVS forum for "LIL HD".

With the O&O rules, DirecTv will hook you up to the west coast HD feeds for FOX and CBS; that will get you NFL games, including most Bronco HD feeds. ESPN HD will get you more games, including college; ESPN2 HD is rumored very, very soon, in time for college football season.

......................

Again, welcome to Colorado and to the forum. Good luck with your decision.

Having access to the west coast CBS feed will not get you any Bronco games in HD. That channel has always been blacked out on my box during the local telecast on Sundays, and the Sunday ticket feed would be blacked out too if the game is on locally. All is not that bad though, I am sure there are people in Longmont that have been able to pull in KCNC via OTA antennas. Cheyenne would likely be an option too, depending upon where (which side of a hill) you happen to live.

dr_mal, MRinDenver, thanks for the responses.

That sounds somewhat like what I thought, though I heard more optimistic info on the D* local HD over satellite for Denver (which, thankfully, I took with a grain of salt). I think I heard it from someone at Ultimate/Soundtrack, so I wasn't making plans with that info.
D*'s original plans were to have the first 12 markets up by June or July and the 2nd 12 (including Denver) by the end of this year. Delays with the launch of the 2nd Spaceway satellite have postponed the 2nd rollout. Not sure why the first rollout is so far behind schedule. Typically, D* doesn't announce anything at all until they're sure they can do what they said they'd do. Could be a paradigm shift with the Fox buyout of D* - moving towards vaporware a la Dish Network.

We have some friends with Tivo, and they swear that is the best thing to ever happen to TV. When I respond that I don't WANT a reason to watch more TV, they inform me that Tivo enables <i>smarter</i> TV watching. I guess I can buy that. I'll look into the HDTivo, but I thought D* and Tivo were parting ways? I'll have to look into that again as well.
D* will not be promoting TiVo-based hardware once their D*-developed DVRs go on sale. They're contractually obligated to provide TiVo-based boxes until 2007, and presumably they won't turn all the TiVo-based boxes off even after that date. UltimateTV made another brand of D* DVR, and even though that company no longer makes or supports the boxes, they still work just fine with D*. The bigger issue with a D* TiVo-based box is that they all work with MPEG2 signals. The D* HD local channels will be provided in MPEG4 format. Rumour is that D* will do a free-with-commitment or very-low-cost-with-commitment swap of the HD TiVos for the HD D*-developed DVR as HD locals are launched in each market. Of course, any OTA HD channels (admittedly limited in Longmont :( ) will presumably still be tuneable, recordable, and watchable with the HD TiVo as long as the box is able to get D*'s authorization signal from the satellite.

And TiVo is the best thing to happen to TV. If you're disciplined about the number of TV shows you watch, you'll be able to watch them in less time (subtract about 1/3 of the show time for commercials). If, like me, you spend all your time in front of the TV watching stuff, you'll be able to watch more stuff in that same amount of time :)

I didn't know that the west coast HD feeds block the Bronco games. Martinko is probably right, as usual. If OTA will work, it won't matter.

With the TiVo, you don't watch more TV, you just watch better TV. When you want to watch something, you always have programs you want, not just what's on at the moment. With the exception of new and sports, we no longer watch anything live.

I was told by a customer service rep at the Ft. Collins Comcast office that HD will be available in Ft. Collins in the October/November timeframe. This was last week. She sounded "trained" on the issue, so I expect that is their current target. So, that may beat D* time-wise for Denver HD locals (assuming they are part of the package).

Mark

I hope the mods (and members) don't mind being that I am a long-time member and poster on this Denver OTA thread, but...

Because of all of the problems at UAL and the huge pay cuts I have endured, I am forced to sell my home and much of my HT setup. One item I DO NOT want to ship is my Stewart screen.

For Sale: 92" (16x9) Stewart Firehawk Luxus Electriscreen in flawless condition. 12 volt triggered auto extension and retract. White enclosure. PM me if interested. In-home demos available.

Thanks, and I apologize if this voilates forum rules. I will remove the post if anyone is offended.

JetlagSorry to hear about your UAL cr@p and it's impact on you. I b^tch about not having a pay raise in 4 years but I know it could be worse.

Not bashing on you but there is a For Sale forum here. It cost $35 to join though. Perhaps a fellow Denverite can help you out. ;) There's also a Denver craigslist.org. I think listings are free.

I'm glad my CEO got his bonus though, helps me sleep better at night.Yes the actions of Criminal Executive Officers and their minions really burns my shorts. "But we did our job and save the company millions/billions (on the backs of our employees)". :confused:

On a positive note, I went to the Colorado Get Together for ********** (Onix & Rocket speakers, Emotiva electronics, etc.) this past weekend. Mark S. (president and CEO?) has to be one of the most gracious and generous individuals I've ever met. The way he spoke of his employees and the gifts he gave to his friends and customers was amazing. :eek: We chatted for a few minutes later on. It only cemented my feelings about him. :) I know I'll look hard at his products when I need some more AV gear. I just wish more employers understood that treating your employees well does pay off. On the other hand, my current employer can go .... :mad: Well I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

CEB & TPW,
A week back or so you asked me what mapping software I used to figure out why I wasn't getting 17. I didn't use software; I have a pretty detailed map (didn't get it off a Happy Meal) and a compass. All I did was draw a line with a pencil and compared that line with the compass reading from antennaweb. Not an exact science I know but reasonable. And if you enter the KMGH address into google maps, click the hybrid link and move about you'll see some pretty tall structures (based on the shadows cast). Besides, common sense says that it's important to broadcast from a high point -- otherwise nobody would've ever built towers anywhere.

So tonight will mark my 5th straight night of watching the NFL (including last night's replay of the Giants/Browns game). I saw some excellent HD (SD/Pack & NYG/Browns) along with some reasonable SD (NFL Network). By far IMO the worst PQ was KCNC's coverage of the Donkeys. To me the color looked washed out both on the D* local and OTA digital. Additionally, I saw some of the game via NFL Network's No Huddle and that transmission looked better than what KCNC showed.

Does anybody know if KCNC plans on showing the home preseason games in HD? Several of the stations around the country aired their respective teams' game in HD this weekend. If Cleveland is doing it...

I don't know if KCNC has any HD-producing capability. AFAIK, only KRMA and KUSA have HD cameras and editing facilities.

By far IMO the worst PQ was KCNC's coverage of the Donkeys. To me the color looked washed out both on the D* local and OTA digital. Additionally, I saw some of the game via NFL Network's No Huddle and that transmission looked better than what KCNC showed.

Complete agreement here. KCNC's PQ was at the lower level of SD football. It was interesting that NFL Network had a better transmission of the same signal. Hopefully most of the CBS & Broncos games we get this year will be HD.

I don't know if KCNC has any HD-producing capability.Every station has the capability... its called renting an HD truck!

Well I have a CM 3023 thanks to a fellow member of the AV's. Well the wind has knocked off a piece and it looks like I need to replace. KUSA just comes in and out.

What is the best choice for a Loveland located person? The CM 4228 or the Winegard 8800? Are there other antennas that would help in getting the signals? I already have the CM 7775 amplifier which allowed me to see the KUSA-DT signal.

I noticed that at one time someone made a parabolic antenna but no more so would like some advice from the thread.

KCNC was showing off ther new weathercenter this morning. All of the monitors were 16x9 so I was wondering if we may see a HD newscast sometime soon?

CEB & TPW,
A week back or so you asked me what mapping software I used to figure out why I wasn't getting 17. I didn't use software; I have a pretty detailed map (didn't get it off a Happy Meal) and a compass. All I did was draw a line with a pencil and compared that line with the compass reading from antennaweb. Not an exact science I know but reasonable. And if you enter the KMGH address into google maps, click the hybrid link and move about you'll see some pretty tall structures (based on the shadows cast). Besides, common sense says that it's important to broadcast from a high point -- otherwise nobody would've ever built towers anywhere.

Thanks for the reply. Remember to add 10.5 degrees to that antennaweb azimuth when applying it to a true north map.

Thanks for the Google tip, I didn't know about Google maps. You were right about my signal, looks like it just skirts all the buildings in the area. Also explains why my signal is as strong or stronger 5 degrees further SE than a direct azimuth to their building (clearer path in the downtown area).

..................Does anybody know if KCNC plans on showing the home preseason games in HD? Several of the stations around the country aired their respective teams' game in HD this weekend. If Cleveland is doing it...
I was watching the sports extra (or whatever KCNC calls it) after the news last night and they specifically said the KCNC telecast next Saturday would be in HD. Now whether or not the guys doing sports actually KNOW what HD is I will leave up to you to decide.

"Quote:
I don't know if KCNC has any HD-producing capability.

Every station has the capability... its called renting an HD truck! "

But, does every station have that kind of money?

But, does every station have that kind of money?
If they want to compete with the other stations that are doing HD, they'd better. And they're an O&O.

I'm currently living in the north end of Firestone and I'm wondering what kind of reception I can get without having to put up an external antenna on my roof. I know that someone previously posted about moving to the Firestone area and I'm wondering what kind of reception that person is receiving if they still read these posts.

I'm limited to my wife right now. She doesn't want anything on our roof or in our attic so that is not a possibility. I have seen the SquareShooter and wonder if that has the ability to receive any HD content or if there are any indoor antennas that would work. Right now I'm just looking for any type of HD content that I can get to use on my new Samsung 1080p that I ordered.

Thanks for your help.

doclove,

Not even in the attic??? Your doomed. Buy her a huge spa day and at least try an antenna in the attic! Sorry to be so harsh, but otherwise, you're pretty much SOL.

Well I have a CM 3023 thanks to a fellow member of the AV's. Well the wind has knocked off a piece and it looks like I need to replace. KUSA just comes in and out.

What is the best choice for a Loveland located person? The CM 4228 or the Winegard 8800? Are there other antennas that would help in getting the signals? I already have the CM 7775 amplifier which allowed me to see the KUSA-DT signal.

I noticed that at one time someone made a parabolic antenna but no more so would like some advice from the thread.

Colofan,
When I lived in the Loveland area I could reliably pick up all the Denver DT stations (except KMGH, which doesn't count) with a CM4228 on my roof. I did have some elevation advantage, however, living just west of town off of Glade Road.

...I'm limited to my wife right now.
Yea, me too. Life just isn't fair is it?:p
....jc

I'm limited to my wife right now. She doesn't want anything on our roof or in our attic so that is not a possibility.
Everybody repeat after me:

It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.
It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.
It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

:D

You can also tell her that the antenna only needs to be up until the local stations begin high power broadcasting. And we all know that is due any time now. (Don't advise her to read this thread, tho.)

KCNC was showing off there new weathercenter this morning. All of the monitors were 16x9 so I was wondering if we may see a HD newscast sometime soon?


An HD newscast from KCNC is years away.

They certainly wouldn’t use CRT monitors on their set; this isn't the '90s! So the only other option is plasma, and as far as I know, you can only get 16:9 plasma monitors.

An HD newscast from KCNC is years away.
That's what KUSA told us.

6 months before they launched local news in HD.

Well, I guess anything is possible.

But KUSA was a different thing. Didn't Gannett pay for that equpiment?
I just don't see CBS buying HD equipment for KCNC.

So the only other option is plasma

There are more options...in the case of KCNC, those 16:9 monitors are DLP! :cool:

Tim

Everybody repeat after me:

It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.
It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.
It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

:D
Okay, okay so I'm repeating after you dr_mal. The next thing I know, I've ordered my 2nd HD-Tivo in a month and I'm begging for forgiveness AGAIN. Since the forgiveness dosen't seem to be forthcoming, I have promised to "tape" any and all home redecorating and crafting shows for future viewing. Now, 2 HD-Tivos doesn't seem to be such a bad idea!
BTW 299 less 100 MIR plus minor programming credits seemed like a fair deal. I have been promised during both purchases that the HR10-250 will be replaced free of charge when MPEG-4 locals become available in our area. Hopefully the new equipment will be at least as good as what we have now. We shall see...

I jumped on the $299.00 deal also. I had no objection from my wife even though she very seldom watches HD. She watches the SD Directivo with the 120 gig hard drive and loves it.

Everybody repeat after me:

It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.
It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.
It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

:D

But I still remember the time when I came home from Bestbuy with a new stereo system we had not discussed beforehand...................................

My wife doesn't mind much my, uh, addiction to toys (my new XM Airware arrived yesterday; scored my second HR10-250 last month at BB).

Her first husband was a serial cheater and a terrible father. As to my proclivity for the latest stuff, she says "At least I know where the money goes and that you'll be home nights."

That first guy was bad for her, but good for me! :p

Colofan,
When I lived in the Loveland area I could reliably pick up all the Denver DT stations (except KMGH, which doesn't count) with a CM4228 on my roof. I did have some elevation advantage, however, living just west of town off of Glade Road.
Thanks for the input....I am further east but I will get a CM4228.

I just installed a fellow worker here in Greeley and he was able to get KCNC and KUSA really well but not Cheyenne. This is with a RS antenna no amplifier.

Yet with an amplifier I have flaky results with KUSA and no KCNC yet I get Cheyenne. This is so unlike science it is weird.

Are the stations broadcasting with the maximum they could at their temp locations? What is the limit 11Kilowatt or so? Is it electrical power for the building?

There are more options...in the case of KCNC, those 16:9 monitors are DLP! :cool:

Tim

From what I understand in reading some trades a few months back, KCNC spent about 300-400K on the new set. I'm sure it's 16:9 friendly, but did KUSA do anything to their set before going HD? Does it look cheap now? That money could have gone a long way towards a HD newsroom. I'm sure it looks great, but think about the majority of the shots you see during a newscast. Not many of them are wide enough to see much. Most of the time it's a talking head and only some of the background elements are seen, with more and more graphics taking up the bottom and sides. Does it really show through? Better to spend money on the back wall then the desk you only see two or three times.

Though I will say a nice set will "set" you apart from the competition sometimes. Where I came from before the CBS and NBC had pretty much made cosmetic changes to their original set 2 or 3 times over 20 years. Then the CBS canned their 25+ year anchor with his 200K salary and proceeded to build a brand new set. Real modern, glass, wood, monitors, stand up areas etc.. Finally when they debuted the new set, it looked fantastic. Compared to the NBC, it was light years ahead in quality and appearance. The NBC set then looked like some college PBS journalism leftover set cobbled together. It was quite dramatic. I think anyone never having lived in the area and not attached to a particular station would opt for the more professional looking set. Particularly since all the others looked so amateurish. Maybe in Denver a much bigger market, that’s not going to sway many people. But in smaller markets it could mean a ratings point over a few years.

Well I have a CM 3023 thanks to a fellow member of the AV's. Well the wind has knocked off a piece and it looks like I need to replace. KUSA just comes in and out.

What is the best choice for a Loveland located person? The CM 4228 or the Winegard 8800? Are there other antennas that would help in getting the signals? I already have the CM 7775 amplifier which allowed me to see the KUSA-DT signal.

I noticed that at one time someone made a parabolic antenna but no more so would like some advice from the thread.

If you want a parabolic, DAWNco sells them. At least they show it on their web site. Check it out here.
Under signal processing choose Off-Air Reception under the 2nd Choose Category pull down menu.
http://www.dawnsat.com/site_html/***Show***_Catalog=DAWNsat_Category=All_SubCat=All_.html

They also sell other more specialty antennas. Mostly for cable co's and lots of satellite equipment. If you need just one station, they can order up a single channel UHF cut just for that channel. Its gain is better then the parabolic, at 23dB. Parabolic ranges from 13-17dB depending on channel. Good luck.

I just installed a fellow worker here in Greeley and he was able to get KCNC and KUSA really well but not Cheyenne. This is with a RS antenna no amplifier.

Yet with an amplifier I have flaky results with KUSA and no KCNC yet I get Cheyenne. This is so unlike science it is weird.

Are the stations broadcasting with the maximum they could at their temp locations? What is the limit 11Kilowatt or so? Is it electrical power for the building?


What part of Greeley? I get no sniff of KUSA or KCNC, but KGWN (Cheyenne) is like 90%!
:confused:

From what I understand in reading some trades a few months back, KCNC spent about 300-400K on the new set. I'm sure it's 16:9 friendly, but did KUSA do anything to their set before going HD? Does it look cheap now?


KUSA cmpletely re-did their set before they went HD. I actually forgot what it looked like before, but I remember it wasn't 16:9 or HD freindly at all.

sCARE is at this very minute, writing their 'Mother of all Speaches' for the Aug 30 JeffCo Public hearing. Their website has quite a bit on new propaganda on it. My favorite is...The FCC allows digital TV broadcasters to radiate any part of Jefferson County with more than four thousand times more radiationHmmm, 4000 times! So, if sCARE says it, it must be true. If this is any indication, I can't wait, it'll be a doosy.

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

According to the CBS Sportsline web page, the August 27 pre-season Broncos game vs. Indy will be in HD. I presume KCNC will pick up the CBS feed. :D The first four weeks of the season's HD broadcasts have also been set. The Broncos are in HD the first two weeks against Miami and SD and the third week is Monday night, which is always HD (for those who can pick up KMGH's HD signal). The 4th game against Jax is NOT in HD. :(

Children are at even more risk from high frequency DTV signals than adults because the lower wavelength is closer to their height.

I love it. They even found a way to bring kids into it. For the love of god, think of the children!

And I also find it very amusing that they have television listed in the “Residential interference problems” list.

Anyone else who gets KGWN in Cheyenne notice the horrible PQ for the Vikings Jets game last night? I think they split way too much BW off for their 5.2 channel that has about a 1 second sound sync problem. I thought I was watching the game on my PC with Windows Media Player. It was the first time I switched to my D* LA CBS feed and the PQ was 100% better.

The KCNC (CBS4) website schedule claims tonights preseason Broncos game is in HD. Does anyone believe that or have info to confirm it ??

I love it. They even found a way to bring kids into it. For the love of god, think of the children!
If this is anything like current politics, and it is, we could be hearing things like this:


Al Qaeda is fostering a plot to literally microwave thousands in Denver. The plot was discovered by a C-A-R-E a Denver based philanthropy group. Deb Carney, lawyer and spokesperson for the group, stated that the plot involved building a 'Super Tower' in Denver, and using it to irradiate tens of thousands of Denver's citizens. Ms Carney went on to say 'They thought they could fool us by telling us it was just a harmless television transmitter. But, when we found bunkers at the Lookout mountain site, that were stocked with food, weapons, M & M's, and Al Qaeda training manuals, we uncovered the plot'.

The KCNC (CBS4) website schedule claims tonights preseason Broncos game is in HD. Does anyone believe that or have info to confirm it ??
TitanTv, which is fairly reliable, does not have the game listed as HD.
....jc

Al Qaeda is fostering a plot to literally microwave thousands in Denver.Hmmmm...

Al Qaeda sounds suspiciously close to Al Hislop. There might be something to this!

The KCNC (CBS4) website schedule claims tonights preseason Broncos game is in HD. Does anyone believe that or have info to confirm it ??

Earlier this week I asked a similar question and another poster said that KCNC, on a Sunday night sports broadcast, said the game WOULD be in HD. And they mentioned it again after last night's game. All signs point to YES. :D

Earlier this week I asked a similar question and another poster said that KCNC, on a Sunday night sports broadcast, said the game WOULD be in HD. And they mentioned it again after last night's game. All signs point to YES. :D

HD Sports Guide added it to their list. I also found a video clip on the CBS4 web site sports section that said the game will be in HD.

I connected my antenna again (not much use for it except for the Broncos for me) and rescanned the channels, and am OK with KCNC at 70% strength. While I was at it I checked FOX 31, and can't get the signal to stop pixelizing even though it is 75% strength (Dish 921). I never had any problems last year with Fox . Did FOX change something with their tower ??

The quest has begun. With football season looming, it is time to begin the process of upgrading my antenna system. The goal is to get, obviously, as many stations as possible. The priority being the stations that broadcast football. And that's ABC, CBS & FOX.

With the prospects of no full power HD in Denver until the analog shutoff, the task is sizable. Add to that, Pikes Peak is blocking Cheyenne Mtn in Colorado Springs. So my best chance of obtaining useable signals, are the transmitters in Denver, which are approximately 53 miles away. Also, by the time D* starts broadcasting HD LIL in my DMA(Colorado Springs), it'll probably be at least 2008. So, it's either take what I can get now, wait at least 2 years until I can receive what I need, or upgrade my antenna and hope that I'm successful. Of course, there is the other option 'Moving to Denver': Literally, it's not going to happen. Figuratively(for the sake of D*), it's a lot more $$$, and they probably won't have HD LIL online for almost another year.

So, the OTA option, is my best choice. I live in between Woodland Park and Divide at an elevation of 8,900'. I have a clear shot(for at least 25 miles) toward most of Denver. This 'shot' is to either side of Devils Head(Elev: 9,748'), and Devils Head is 20.5 miles away. There is a ridge to the West that blocks Lookout Mountain, and it's about 80' higher than my elevation.

Here's what I currently have for equipment:
Mitsubishi WS-65511 with built in ATSC tuner
LG LSS 3200A D* and OTA receiver
Rohn 29' 45G freestanding tower(3' buried in concrete) with 10' mast
Winegard 8200 UHF/VHF antenna
Winegard Chromstar AP-8780 preamp

While the LSS 3200A was touted as a very good receiver, the built-in receiver in the Mits performs better. However, it doesn't have a signal meter, so I can give you any signal strengths. Before this quest, here's what I was receiving:

4.1 - KCNC(CBS)<Republic Plaza - North Az: 5° 53' 24" - 54.119 Miles>
- About 66% the time
5.* - KGWN(CBS)<Cheyenne, Wy - North Az: 1° 44' 24" - 147.46 Miles>
- 100% of the time
6.1 - KRMA(PBS)<Republic Plaza - North Az: 5° 53' 24" - 54.119 Miles>
- 100% of the time
7.* - KMGH(ABC)<KMGH Studios - North Az: 6° 08' 24" - 52.929 Miles>
- 100% of the time
9.* - KRMA(NBC)<Republic Plaza - North Az: 5° 53' 24" - 54.119 Miles>
- 0% but occasionally is programmed
12.* - KBDI(PBS)<Squaw Mtn - North Az: 336° 35' 24" - 54.085 Miles>
- 100% of the time
21.3 - KFCT(FOX)<Fort Collins - North Az: 7° 04' 12" - 116.73 Miles>
- 0% but occasionally is programmed
31.1 - KDVR(FOX)<Denver - North Az: 351° 45' 36" - 53.373 Miles>
- 2% but occasionally is programmed
34.* - KWGN(WB)<Denver - North Az: 351° 48' 00" - 53.639 Miles>
- 0% but occasionally is programmed
46.* - KWHD(???)<Castle Rock - North Az: 35° 43' 48" - 39.972 Miles>
- 0% but occasionally is programmed
(Note: North Azimuths are true, not magnetic)
(Note: Programmed means the signal was strong enough to add the channel to the available channels).

The 1st step was to take down the monster(Winegard 8200 - almost 15' long), and replace it with an Antennas Direct 91XG. With both antennas down(held by hand) they had almost identical signal strengths(Using KDVR analog for the signal). With the 91XG on the tower, that proved to be true. The 91XG did not pick up anything any better than the Winegard did. No additional channels added. We also disconnected a Join-Tenna that was used with a sidearm antenna that pointed toward Cheyenne Mtn in the Springs. The Join-Tenna, no doubt, introduced some signal loss, so I'm inclined to think that the Winegard had a slightly better UHF gain than the 91XG. Hmmmm.

Was I just in a bad location, was KDVR HD impossible to receive out here? My friend Doug who is a Ham radio enthusiast, and is helping me with this endeavor, suggested that we try to receive it at his house. He lives about 0.6 miles from me, and has about a 50' - 60' elevation advantage(from my antenna height). I took the 3200A up there and he hooked up a small UHF antenna to it. Small antenna, inside his house no less, on about 20' of RG-6. Nothing. Nada. Ok, change antennas. We then tried a 2' tall by 1' wide stacked dipole reflector antenna. Again nothing. Constrained by cables, we were able to move the receiver close enough so that he could move the antenna into a bedroom with a North facing window(toward KDVR). Bingo. It locked right on to KDVR! The signal strength was right in the middle, no percentage just 3 zones, so say 50%. This receiver usually locks when the signal is above the 1st zone, say above 33%.

Aha! It's not a pipe dream!

The next step is to rotate the 91XG about 140° toward Cheyenne Mtn, and see if I can get anything there. It's a longshot, but KXRM(Fox) is broadcasting in HD, so it's worth a try. We'll do that Monday morning, unless it's too windy. This test will chart my future path.

Do I need a different type of antenna(stacked dipole reflector vs. a yagi)?
Should I try a dual or quad stack?
Will an expensive low noise preamp help(supposed to be like having a 40% larger
antenna!)?
Doug also has an old 7' parabolic dish. I don't really want that on a mast at the top of the tower due to wind loads, but that's also a possibility.

HDTVPrimer also has an excellent article concerning antenna siting, and it's here. (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html) The problem is determining exactly which type of interference that I'm dealing with. If you know that, you know the best type of antenna to try. Hmmmm, more reading.

I've still got a few weeks left, but time is not on my side!
....jc

TotallyPreWired,

I live in Highlands Ranch, at approximately 6100' (my estimate, no GPS reading taken). Two weekends ago, I replaced my Terk 32 4 bay bow-tie antenna with an RCA 3036X VHF/UHF (from Home Depot) that is probably close to your Winegard. It has 36 elements. The Terk 32 was mounted on a 15' pole below roof line on the back side of my house (south) pointing NNW at approximately 335 degrees. I did the replacement because I wanted to drive 6 TV's, 5 analog and 1 HD, in order to drop LIL's from E* for 3 TV's and get rid of rabbit ears for the other 3 TV's. I also had in mind that KRMA, KMGH, and KUSA would be reverting back to channels 6, 7, and 9 respectively and that KDBI would be moving to channel 13 after analog shutoff.

Despite what many posters on this thread think about Terk's, the Terk 32 was a good antenna for me. Although the antenna did not clear my roofline, I picked up 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 12, 25, and 31 with varying signal strengths from the mid 70's to the mid 80's on all channels with my Dish 811, although I lost 5 sometimes during the daytime hours. I did not have a rotor but even when I manually turned the antenna, I could not get 46DT KHWD.

I mounted the 3036X on my roof about 6 feet west of where the Terk was mounted. It clears my roofline by about 7'. I first hooked it up directly to my HDTV, pointed it due north, and found my signal strengths dropped about 4-5% for channels 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, and 31. I lost 5, 12 and 25. Playing with it manually, I found I could pick up 46DT when I pointed it at about 105 degrees, 25 when I pointed it due south, and 12 when I pointed it at 20 degrees. By fiddling with it some more, I found that by pointing it at 45 degrees, my signal strength on 2, 4, 6, 9, and 31 increased to about 90%. No doubt multipath was at play here. However, I can't figure it out since NOTHING north, west, or east of me is higher than my antenna. To my south, I do have houses that are higher than me. I can visually see Lookout from ground level in my front yard.

When I inserted a 3-way splitter, which fed the HDTV, 1 analog TV, and another 4 way splitter, I lost all of my digitals, with signal strengths of 0% to 40%. The analogs were unaffected. My next step was to add a CM 3041DSB amp that I purchased from Lowe's. That restored all of my digitals to the same strength as they were with the direct connection to the HDTV with no splitter. Success! I had a real old Archer (Radio Shack) rotor (like 20 years old) that I then added to the setup in order to pickup 46DT (they broadcast some college football) and to get 12 and 25, since they were receivable, although I don't watch them. I now only receive 5 on an occasional basis, and only at night.

The last thing I did was check for KFCT. Pointing due north, I got an 85% signal and it remapped to 31. So I deleted 32DT and added 21DT to my 811 and now I get Fox as my best signal from a non-local transmitter. Ironic.

Whether or not my experience helps you, my antenna change-out seems to indicate that my Terk 4 bay bow-tie stacked antenna was better at both receiving higher signal strength and eliminating multi-path than the RCA yagi. It also shows that multipath may yield a higher signal strength. From my research, the Terk has about a 10.2 db average gain across all UHF channels. I cannot find any db ratings for my 3036X. I'm thinking about adding my Terk to the top of my mast and running it directly to my HDTV, but the only benefit might be receiving 5, which I watch only one show on - George Michaels Sports Machine at 10:30 on Sunday nights. Also, I used quad shield RG6 cable to the amp and the first 3 way splitter. Unfortunately, I have RG59 running to the other 4 analog TV's which I can't replace as I ran the cable inside the walls when my house was being built in 1991.

With my new setup of the 3036X, amp, and rotor, I do get occasional locks on KXRM 21 and KKTV 10 from the Springs. I also get a lock once in a while on KLWY DT28 (FOX) out of Cheyenne even though they are apparently at a temp power of 6.46 kW, so you may want to try them since you receive KGWN so reliably.

Good luck in your endeavours. At least you'll get the Broncos on KGWN and KMGH. Fortunately for you, there are only 2 Fox games, Oct 9 (Washington) and Oct 30 (Philadelphia).

Keep us informed of your results.

Why not just put all of the local stations on Cable....no satellite, just Cable? Then, pull the plug on all OTA broadcasting in Denver.....FM as well.

No Cable, No local TV. No local TV, no ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, UPN, etc.

Cable can just wire every neighborhood, and pass the costs on to the people who support SCARE tactics.

(Pass this "info" around before the vote, and you'll get a lot more people on your side than they will.)

Maybe the stations could use the old tower site to build condos for all the OLD broadcast engineers, who are often still active and healthy, not to mention fertile.

TotallyPreWired,With my new setup of the 3036X, amp, and rotor, I do get occasional locks on KXRM 21 and KKTV 10 from the Springs. I also get a lock once in a while on KLWY DT28 (FOX) out of Cheyenne even though they are apparently at a temp power of 6.46 kW, so you may want to try them since you receive KGWN so reliably.
MHM,
I listed everything that has shown up down here. Not a peep from KLWY. So, it's not going to be an option.

Another thing that is coming into play is the use of directional antennas. It looks like some(most?) of the stations are using them. And, of course, their main signal strength is to the East. I'm South. :(

KDVR for instance shows that for my location only 45.3% of the available power is radiated in my direction. Where as if you were at 80° azimuth from their tower, 85.4% of the available signal is radiated.

Will keep you posted.
....jc

Why not just put all of the local stations on Cable....no satellite, just Cable? Then, pull the plug on all OTA broadcasting in Denver.....FM as well.

Woodland Park, is not quite a metropolis. The cable company, US Cable, pretty much sucks, and they offer no HD channels. I did just recently went back to them for internet, as they offer a faster product at lower cost than satellite.

Maybe the stations could use the old tower site to build condos for all the OLD broadcast engineers, who are often still active and healthy, not to mention fertile.
I think that towers are cool. And, if they all stay, sCARE doesn't get their way. You may be ok up there, but in our subdivision, our covenants(section 6, subtitle 3), specifically prohibit fertile broadcast engineers, and the inherent dangers that they present to the community. :p

..Two weekends ago, I replaced my Terk 32 4 bay bow-tie antenna with an RCA 3036X VHF/UHF (from Home Depot) that is probably close to your Winegard. It has 36 elements.
I stated that the 8200 is a monster, and it is. Compared to the RCA, it's 5-1/2' longer, and has about twice as many elements(71). I did my research before I bought it, and it's still one of the highest gain VHF/UHF combos made. However, it is so big, that I wouldn't recommend it unless you've got a fairly serious mounting platform. With the winds that we get up here, I'm fairly surprised that it stayed in position for 3 years!

Also, I used quad shield RG6 cable to the amp and the first 3 way splitter. Unfortunately, I have RG59 running to the other 4 analog TV's which I can't replace as I ran the cable inside the walls when my house was being built in 1991.
Ideally, your preamp should have just enough power to overcome the signal loss from your mast mount to your distribution center. At that point, another amp should be used to push the signal throughout the house, and powerful enough to overcome the RG59 signal loss(considerable compared to RG6).

And, yes, with Lookout Mtn blocked, and the signal reflections that I'm getting, switching from a yagi to a stacked dipole reflector is definitely a possibility.
....jc

Unfortunately, searching on Denver, CO or my zip code (& county) yields no results at this time.
The same goes for Colorado Springs/Teller/80863.

I have no idea what this is, but I better find out, 'cause it could end my 'quest'!
....jc

Ok, a link to a large PDF is here. (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-24A1.pdf)

For me here in Teller County it has:
Teller
KCNC-TV, 4, Denver, CO (formerly KOA)
KMGH-TV, 7, Denver, CO (formerly KLZ)
KUSA-TV, 9, Denver, CO (formerly KBTV)
KKTV, 11, Colorado Springs, CO
KRDO-TV, 13, Colorado Springs, CO

For those in Douglas County it has:
Douglas
KWGN-TV, 2, Denver, CO
KCNC-TV, 4, Denver, CO (formerly KOA)
KMGH-TV, 7, Denver, CO (formerly KLZ)
KUSA-TV, 9, Denver, CO (formerly KBTV)
+KTVD, 20, Denver, CO
KRDO-TV, 13, Colorado Springs, CO

For those in Denver County it has:
Denver
KWGN-TV, 2, Denver, CO
KCNC-TV, 4, Denver, CO (formerly KOA)
KMGH-TV, 7, Denver, CO (formerly KLZ)
KUSA-TV, 9, Denver, CO (formerly KBTV)
+KTVD, 20, Denver, CO
+KDVR, 31, Denver, CO

For those in Arapahoe County it has:
Arapahoe
KWGN-TV, 2, Denver, CO
KCNC-TV, 4, Denver, CO (formerly KOA)
KMGH-TV, 7, Denver, CO (formerly KLZ)
KUSA-TV, 9, Denver, CO (formerly KBTV)
+KTVD, 20, Denver, CO
+KDVR, 31, Denver, CO

For those in Boulder County it has:
Boulder
KWGN-TV, 2, Denver, CO
KCNC-TV, 4, Denver, CO (formerly KOA)
KMGH-TV, 7, Denver, CO (formerly KLZ)
KUSA-TV, 9, Denver, CO (formerly KBTV)
+KTVD, 20, Denver, CO
+KDVR, 31, Denver, CO

For those in Jefferson County it has:
Jefferson
KWGN-TV, 2, Denver, CO
KCNC-TV, 4, Denver, CO (formerly KOA)
KMGH-TV, 7, Denver, CO (formerly KLZ)
KUSA-TV, 9, Denver, CO (formerly KBTV)
+KTVD, 20, Denver, CO
+KDVR, 31, Denver, CO

If ya need more, look at the PDF.

But for me, it looks like I'll get(In addition to the channels already in the C/S DMA):
KCNC-TV, 4, Denver, CO (formerly KOA)
KMGH-TV, 7, Denver, CO (formerly KLZ)
KUSA-TV, 9, Denver, CO (formerly KBTV)

Where is Fox!!!! Is this some sort of a plot? sCARE is it U? :mad:
....jc

Is the above in regards to the DirecTV SV thing?
Yes. I need to do some more research, but I would assume it applies to HD LIL also. This could be pretty cool!
....jc

I did a quick look at this typical legal document, and there are exceptions up the wazoo. Here are some highlights:
We note that the Commission has previously decided that the digital signal of a television broadcast station will be accorded the same significantly viewed status as that of the analog signal, except that where the station is broadcasting only a digital signal, the station must petition for significantly viewed status using the analog requirements in Section 76.54.62

Therefore, the SHVERA permits satellite carriage of an out-of-market network affiliate’s significantly viewed digital signal in HD or multicast format while only carrying the local network station’s signal in a single SD format when the local network station is only broadcasting in that single SD format. For example, if the local network station is broadcasting in multicast format, and the significantly viewed network affiliate is broadcasting in HD format, the satellite carrier may carry the HD signal of the significantly viewed network affiliate under the “equivalent bandwidth” requirement, provided that it carries the local network station’s multicast signals. Another example is if the local network station is broadcasting in a single SD format, while the significantly viewed network affiliate is broadcasting in HD or multicast format. The “entire bandwidth” provision does not prevent carriage of the significantly viewed network affiliate in HD format. A satellite carrier may carry the HD or multicast signal of the significantly viewed network affiliate under the “entire bandwidth” requirement, provided that the satellite carrier carries the local network station’s original SD format. We seek comment on these tentative conclusions.
So, it looks like when Denver gets HD LIL, I'll get those stations too(If I don't get nailed by an exception). Now, I just need to get KDVR to apply for SV status in Teller county, and I'm set. However, that won't likely help this season. :(

Another thing that's interesting, is that D* has added a county selection for some Zip Codes. For mine, 80863, you can choose between El Paso & Teller. If you choose El Paso you can see the local channels offered. However, if you select Teller, it indicates that the 'System is Temporarily Unavailable'. Hmmm.

The lookup screen is here. (http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/LocalChannelsAction.do)
....jc

Last night's pre-season game vs. the 49ers was produced locally and in High Definition. Anyone else watch all or part of it in HD?

I watched the game and sent KCNC a short email last night thanking them for their efforts. Perhaps if they hear from others, they may be surprised at how many HD viewers they have.

I watched it into the 4th Qtr. and thought it was one of the best HD football games I'd EVER seen. Not just because the PQ was exceptional (it was) but because the production value was also high. Whoever produced this game knows football AND took advantage of the 16x9. I like a game where I can see the safeties 10 yards off the line as well as a wideout at the top of the screen. Too many big-time network type producers want to zoom in on the QB...worthless. But the crew on Saturday night did a super job. Thanks KCNC.

What part of Greeley? I get no sniff of KUSA or KCNC, but KGWN (Cheyenne) is like 90%!
:confused:

He lives about 3 blocks sw of the new circuit city location in Greeley. He got to see the game on saturday in HD while I had to be content with SD...ugh


He has a 5 foot mast with the RS UHF antenna on the top of the house using an eve mount.

I watched it into the 4th Qtr. and thought it was one of the best HD football games I'd EVER seen. Not just because the PQ was exceptional (it was) but because the production value was also high. Whoever produced this game knows football AND took advantage of the 16x9. I like a game where I can see the safeties 10 yards off the line as well as a wideout at the top of the screen. Too many big-time network type producers want to zoom in on the QB...worthless. But the crew on Saturday night did a super job. Thanks KCNC.

I couldn't agree more! The camera work and zoom levels were excellent. You could see coverages, and matchups, and not just the guy carrying the ball.

EXCELLENT JOB KCNC! And congratulations on a job well done!

I just contacted D* to inquire about the Significantly Viewed channels. After dealing with India, I got them to transfer me to a real American. Imagine that! He knew of the SV channels, but indicated that he didn't have a date or much 'official' info that he could pass on. Ok, then I had him transfer me to the HD group. A lady looked up my account, and said that I was eligible for NBC & ABC. Hmmmm, KRDO must have decided not to mess with it, so even though I can get KMGH off air, I had them turn it on. West coast only though. The lady indicated that I'd still need a waiver for CBS & FOX. So I called KXRM and talked to someone in engineering. He indicated that there wasn't an HD waiver. I then told him that KRDO had a 'blanket' waiver. So, he said that he'd call me back. A half hour later, he calls back. He gives me this line about waiting for the FCC to firm up the laws. Hey! What about KRDO? Sorry, he tells me, no waivers at all right now.

So, it looks like it's wait and see what happens with SV channels. BTW, the FCC doc that I read, indicated something about October 30th. So, maybe that's the date that they need to start providing the channels.
....jc

7 Days and counting...

I hate to say or even think it, but this time around the smart money is on (S)Care. The deck is most definitely NOT stacked in our favor I'm afraid. With the set of current commisioners (elected on strong anti-tower platforms) combined with the power of an entire troop of weepy-eyed Brownies, I fully expect a unanimous NO vote.

It really doesn't seem to matter anymore what the facts are in this wonderful world of misconstrued public opinion drawn on false analogies and corrupted evidence. I believe that the White House press calls this "Spin".

Until the mandated switchover date, I think Denver viewers are screwed as far as OTA HD goes. :mad:

"Until the mandated switchover date, I think Denver viewers are screwed as far as OTA HD goes. "

Or, maybe for good! As non-conforming uses, are the stations even allowed to change their antennas, or do much of anything, up there? Maybe they just have to go off the air on 12-31-2008.

I hate to say or even think it, but this time around the smart money is on (S)Care. The deck is most definitely NOT stacked in our favor I'm afraid. With the set of current commisioners (elected on strong anti-tower platforms) combined with the power of an entire troop of weepy-eyed Brownies, I fully expect a unanimous NO vote.

It really doesn't seem to matter anymore what the facts are in this wonderful world of misconstrued public opinion drawn on false analogies and corrupted evidence. I believe that the White House press calls this "Spin".

Until the mandated switchover date, I think Denver viewers are screwed as far as OTA HD goes. :mad:

I agree, Jetlag. I predict 3-0 against. How can you top the guy wire testimony the last time around?

Don

In the unlikely event that the BOCC keeps the discussion limited to the issue at hand, namely the harm of a falling tower, what can Judge Jackson do if the BOCC finds that this limited issue has been adequetly addressed by LCG? Is there any limit to the number of times a judge can keep sending this bac to the BOCC?

If anybody has a minute. It can't hurt to send the commish's a word of support for the Tower.

commish@jeffco.us

I agree, Jetlag. I predict 3-0 against. How can you top the guy wire testimony the last time around?

Don
Don't forget about the county attorney. When the commissioners go back to discuss how they'll vote, the county attorney is there to make sure they're following the letter of the law when they make their decision. I don't think any of these Commissioner newbies want to make an illegal (however heartfelt) decision in this case.

Don't forget about the county attorney. When the commissioners go back to discuss how they'll vote, the county attorney is there to make sure they're following the letter of the law when they make their decision. I don't think any of these Commissioner newbies want to make an illegal (however heartfelt) decision in this case.

I think that Judge Jackson has given them the legal right to make any decision they want by sending the case back to them. What the BCC decides will stand.

Don

I know some County employees who say the new commissioners have set the County back 30 years.

They are being told to stay away from BCC meetings and that they are not welcome.

I do not expect anything good to be coming out of Golden any time soon. :(

I know some County employees who say the new commissioners have set the County back 30 years.
Another 30 years? I mean, Golden was crazy enough before this :(

I hate to say or even think it, but this time around the smart money is on (S)Care. The deck is most definitely NOT stacked in our favor I'm afraid. With the set of current commisioners (elected on strong anti-tower platforms) combined with the power of an entire troop of weepy-eyed Brownies, I fully expect a unanimous NO vote.

It really doesn't seem to matter anymore what the facts are in this wonderful world of misconstrued public opinion drawn on false analogies and corrupted evidence. I believe that the White House press calls this "Spin".

Until the mandated switchover date, I think Denver viewers are screwed as far as OTA HD goes. :mad:I agree. But then this outcome won't bother the stations either. SCARE wins, the stations win, the attorneys win, and we all lose.

I agree. But then this outcome won't bother the stations either. SCARE wins, the stations win, the attorneys win, and we all lose.

Let's not forget Comcast and D*. They win too as viewers end up subscribing. Since OTA will not be available for free, most will be forced to 'pay' Comcast or D* for their 'free' OTA channels. Actually, there really appears to be only one loser in all of this, that would be the home viewer in the metro area.

The thing about this with the stations is that if they have no intention in pushing this OTA through then I think that the stations would be required to grant waivers so people on with D* or E* can watch other network broadcast that are in HD.

The home viewer that is outside of the metro area is the biggest loser.

Requesting some help from the Denver HD gang...

So I finally broke down and bought one of those cheap USDigital OTA receivers. (Can't watch another football season without HD) I also bought a cheap-o $7 RCA indoor antenna, since that worked fine for me a few years ago when I lived in Colorado Springs. When I set it up last night, I did a scan, and it only picked up WB, PBS, and FOX. When I searched for NBC (16) and CBS (35, most important one), the signal would bounce up and down at best, and that is when I was standing out on my balcony with the antenna. It wouldn't lock on, and I couldn't add the channel.

It seems that my problem lies in the fact that there are several large buildings (Qwest, etc.) between my apartment and Republic Plaza. (I'm at 24th and Blake) Also I'm in a big concrete building on the northwest side. However it's probably only a mile or so away.

So here is my question for the salty veterans - what do you recommend? Try getting a better antenna? Spend the big bucks and go for the $30 RCA indoor? Perhaps an outdoor one that I can leave on my balcony? Or do you think my tuner is just a hunk of crap and I shouldn't have skimped on it?

Any help is appreciated. If some of you recall, about a year ago I was throwing a fit because I can't get HD satellite or cable in my place, long (and bad) story.

Try a better antenna - make sure it's pointed directly at Republic Plaza (the tallest building downtown). Also make sure you buy it from a place that will let you return it if it doesn't work out for you. Radio Shack is really good for that, but I think you can get better indoor antennas from places like Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.

I really don't think there's that much difference in tuners nowadays. If you can get DirecTV at all, I've heard you can get a DirecTV HD TiVo (model HR10-250) for $299 these days. Even if you can't TiVo the D* HD content, you'll be able to TiVo whatever you can get OTA (plus SD D* content). That's the situation durvivor is in right now, and it seems to be working out for him pretty well.

How do I point it? I guess the logo is on the front? (Got this one - http://images.google.com/images?q=ANT110&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&sa=N&tab=wi) Or is that not a directional antenna?

Other choices - (of course they don't have a pic of mine, it's the $7 one) http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product_listing.gsp?cat=4536&path=0%3A3944%3A3964%3A133270%3A4536

I bought it from Wally World, which has the most liberal return policy of all I think, so that is good. I'll try the $30 one tonight and see what happens.

Looked for that HD TiVO, couldn't find it for less than $500. That would be a good idea though.

Thanks for the reply.

Not sure how to point that particular antenna - it's been a while since I've been able to pull in anything with something that small. Go spend the extra $30 on a decent indoor antenna.

Here's how to get the HD TiVo for $299: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=254292&page=1&pp=30 (maybe less with rebates/incentives?)

[edit: as to your other choices at WalMart, the Zenith Silver Sensor is highly regarded. durvivor has the Philips PHDTV1 and he gets every stations (including KMGH:eek: ) from his condo in Littleton.]

Looked for that HD TiVO, couldn't find it for less than $500. That would be a good idea though.

Check out this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=569538)

Some people have been getting them for $199 ($299 - $100 rebate) (plus tax, shipping, etc.)

[edit: as to your other choices at WalMart, the Zenith Silver Sensor is highly regarded. durvivor has the Philips PHDTV1 and he gets every stations (including KMGH:eek: ) from his condo in Littleton.]

Decisions, decisions. I assume the Philips Silver Sensor is the same as the Zenith? Guess it's between that, the PHDTV1, or the amplified RCA. Guess I could just buy all three and take back the two "losers."

I'll have to cross my fingers and hope one will work, preferrably indoors without making my girlfriend hold it up out on my balcony to get the signal. For some reason she didn't like that...

It really doesn't seem to matter anymore what the facts are in this wonderful world of misconstrued public opinion drawn on false analogies and corrupted evidence. I believe that the White House press calls this "Spin".
Exactly! What do Corporate America and local governments love? Money!. Ok, bring in business people to talk about the economic losses that they are incurring due to the lack of High Power HDTV. The losses are low sales of HD related equipment, and services. For the government, loss of sales tax revenue. Spin it some more. They could talk about the job losses that this mess is causing, and how the economy is suffering as a result(Just like WMD's, think about it).

Spin, spin, spin....

Finally show the committee a short video of a bunch of kids sitting in front of a Christmas tree. They are all crying. Why? Santa's face on the TV is fuzzy, and the reindeer look like rabbits.

Ok, bring in business people to talk about the economic losses that they are incurring due to the lack of High Power HDTV. The losses are low sales of HD related equipment, and services. For the government, loss of sales tax revenue.
They tried this at the PBS/Mt. Morrison tower hearing. They had a videotaped statement from some muckety muck at SoundTrack (it wasn't Dave Workman). That testimony got the most catcalls, boos, laughs, and general heckling of anyone :(

Decisions, decisions. I assume the Philips Silver Sensor is the same as the Zenith? Guess it's between that, the PHDTV1, or the amplified RCA. Guess I could just buy all three and take back the two "losers."

I'll have to cross my fingers and hope one will work, preferrably indoors without making my girlfriend hold it up out on my balcony to get the signal. For some reason she didn't like that...
Oh yeah, that's weird. I can't imagine Philips would be allowed to market something with the same name as Zenith. And that antenna that durvivor has looks identical to the PHDTV1, but his is a Terk. I wonder if WalMart has the manufacturer wrong or if the antennas are made by some 3rd party who sells them to Terk and Philips.

Assuming all goes badly next week and the towers are effectively killed, do the stations have any options for locating their digital towers elsewhere? Do you think they would do that, perhaps forced by the FCC to find another location, or would they just throw up their collective hands, wait for the cutoff date, and say "I told ya so"?

Dave,

At this point, they don't have an alternative plan. (At least they haven't released it) My guess is if this goes down in flames, they will either get the FCC to step in or wait it out til '09ish.

I would think the FCC would be far more comfortable mandating the stations find a new location before the cutoff date than they would attempting to interfere with local zoning decisions.

[edit: woo hoo! First post on the page!]
Oh goody. A new location. Let's work the timeline.

Case (hypothetically) gets denied next week.

Judge Jackson gets the case back on his calendar by 02/2006. He rules for the sCARE consortium and rules that no tower can be built.

1 year for LCG to create a new proposal, so it's ready to be scheduled in whatever county is unlucky enough to be chosen as the new radiation hotspot. Let's call it 02/2007. The county schedules first hearing about 3 months later, so that's 05/2007.

Massive amounts of testimony against the new SuperDeeDooperTower force the hearings to drag on for two months. We're at 07/2007 now.

Decision is rendered 08/2007.

Let's be REALLY optimistic and say that the county approves the tower and there are no further sCARE lawsuits.

Construction starts about a year later, after blueprints are drawn up to conform with the county's restrictions on the tower. 08/2008.

Construction takes about a year, plus time for testing. 08/2009.

Why not just wait it out, and swap out their equipment in their current buildings in 2009?

jmartinko and Geof, I'll be waiting for my official "cynical old HDTV geezer" membership kit to arrive in the mail :D

Why not just wait it out, and swap out their equipment in their current buildings in 2009?We have never heard the final word on whether they can actually do this.

Their existing towers have antennas that are tuned to fixed frequencies (4,7,9) which are different than the ones they are assigned by the FCC for DTV (16, 17, 35). And we all know, they cannot modify the towers at all without more JeffCo hearings.

Based on what I've read:
Looks like the DirecTV SV (significantly viewed) channels thing got eclipsed.
I'd like to ask a few questions about DirecTV SV...
Is this (DirecTV SV) dependent on the HD LiL thing when our market segment eventually gets served next year?
No. It's completely independent of HD. It applies to both analog and HD, and there are some interesting 'twists' with the HD portion.
Or, if it is independent of that and applies to what is currently available, will DirecTV SV enable us to get KMGH HD? Or, would it be W. coast feeds of ABC (which we currently cannot get due to KMGH rejecting waivers) like we get for CBS and Fox?
Neither. Sorry. It applies to SV channels that are viewed in another DMA. I live in Teller county. For me it means, that they have designated at least 3 Denver stations that are SV here. So, D*(or whoever) is allowed to provide me the signal.
Sorry if I'm not making total sense but unfortunately I don't have a good understanding of how all of this works and am seeking a good explanation.
Understandable, it can be fairly complicated. What it boils down to, is that if a certain percentage of residents in a certain area(county) have been receiving/viewing a channel from another DMA, then satellite(like cable) providers are allowed to provide the signal. One reason for this is to allow satellite providers the same opportunities that cable companies have had for years.

Unfortunately, for Denver DMA folks, there aren't many additional channels. Read my previous post, and some counties are gaining Colorado Springs channels.

How this will play out for HD is more complicated, right down to the type of digital signal provided.

Let me also add that your satellite provider is not required to provide SV channels. However, since I'm sure that they'll charge for this, and I've seen evidence that D* is already working on it, I'm pretty sure that D* is going to provide them.

I have yet to see an effective date, but I saw the date 10/30/05 in the FCC document.
....jc

We have never heard the final word on whether they can actually do this.

Their existing towers have antennas that are tuned to fixed frequencies (4,7,9) which are different than the ones they are assigned by the FCC for DTV (16, 17, 35). And we all know, they cannot modify the towers at all without more JeffCo hearings.I'm sure SCARE has a plan to try and block this but I still don't think it'll ever happen. Can you imagine the utter embarrassment and laughter emanating from the entire continent if most all of the Denver stations go black because of some asinine NIMBY group?

Personally I think the minute the BOCC votes against the tower for "falling reasons" LCG should take them to court. They vowed to vote against the tower when they ran for office and if they go thru with it then let a Judge decide if they did it with prejudice. They'd better base their decision on real concerns not unimaginable occurrences dreamed up by group of self serving individuals hell bent on getting rich by making up crap.

Dr_Mal......your kit is in the mail...:)

We have never heard the final word on whether they can actually do this.

Their existing towers have antennas that are tuned to fixed frequencies (4,7,9) which are different than the ones they are assigned by the FCC for DTV (16, 17, 35). And we all know, they cannot modify the towers at all without more JeffCo hearings.IIRC, didn't one of these stations elect to move their digital back to their current analog frequency after the shutoff? So perhaps only two stations could be threatened with new hearings by Jeffco.

KTVD is supposed to move from channel 20 to 19, which might be close enough to work with their present equipment.

Got the PHDTV1, did me no good. As a matter of fact, it works worse than the $7 one when the amp is turned on. Guess I am once again doomed. Thanks for the efforts.

Or, if it is independent of that and applies to what is currently available, will DirecTV SV enable us to get KMGH HD? Or, would it be W. coast feeds of ABC (which we currently cannot get due to KMGH rejecting waivers) like we get for CBS and Fox?
Something else that I just thought of: ABC is not doing HD right. Other than MNF(which is a biggee), they are offering only a handful of College Football HD games this season. BOOOOOOO! And, how many college games do they broadcast? A lot! So, just maybe, corporate policy has something to do with KMGH and their toy transmitter.

The good news, if there is any, is that on September 8th, D* will start carrying ESPN2 in HD.
...jc

jmartinko and Geof, I'll be waiting for my official "cynical old HDTV geezer" membership kit to arrive in the mail
I'd order one to but it probably won't do a bit of good or make any positive difference whatsoever! ;)

Have been 'Lurking' on this particular forum for quite some time now, and thought I finally had something to contribute. Before I do though, I would just like to say that this forum has provided a wealth of knowledge to me, both before and since I made the jump into HDTV, and of course specifically OTA digital television a few months back, and for that I must start by saying thank you to its many contributors!

Since this board is obviously about to explode (and rightfully so) in about six days, I thought I'd offer some observations of mine that may be able to help JeremyTebo, since I'm in a similar situation, and based upon what I've been reading, Republic Plaza might be our only option for a while.

First off, I live roughly near 1st & Logan. 1/2 mile from KMGH's extremely low power transmitter on their roof, and 2 miles from Republic Plaza. I too am in a condo on the opposite side from these transmitters (the Southeast side in my case), but my building is primarily brick. I also live on the second floor, which I assume helps me a great deal. I however do NOT have another skyscraper (over 20 stories anyway) between me and Republic Plaza, which I'm sure does make a difference. I have a friend who lives Uptown, who like yourself also has a much more difficult time getting those Republic signals, although in his case it is the 'Cash Register Building' in his way, not the Qwest Building. Nonetheless, there is still hope for you.

I must say that I am a huge fan of the Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna, and would recommend you experiment with it's positioning some more before giving up on it. The people on this forum could not be more right regarding low power digital TV, it most certainly IS a game of inches. It took a few days/weeks of 'fiddling' with it's position in my Living Room to find the sweet spot where I could leave it and receive all the network affiliates, but after ample experimentation, I have. Yes, there's countless hours of my life that I'll never get back, and that's frustrating, but the results are infinitely gratifying!

Basically it's pointing NNW, or straight at Republic Plaza from my location. Luckily for me, KMGH is just slightly West of that line, so I'm more or less pointing directly at their roof as well. The much higher power of the two digital stations on Lookout Mtn. seems to make up for the fact that my antenna is not really pointed too much to the west, as I receive them as well, although KWGN is my weakest signal of all, but still 'locked' and watchable.

FWIW, here's the list of stations I receive from strongest signal to weakest:

KUSA (16) [by far my strongest signal]
KCNC (35)
KRMA (18)
KMGH (17)
KDVR (32) [always watchable, but strength fluctuates every few weeks]
KBDI (38)
KWGN (34)

My digital receiver is a Dish 921, which from what I have read on these forums, is nothing special one way or the other.

Long story short, I'm a big proponent of the 'Silver Sensor' as one of the better indoor antennas for DTV, and I would give it another chance before you give up.

If there's one thing I've learned over these past few months, is that HDTV is worth it! Even in a difficult situation like Denver.

Again, thanks to all the 'old timers' on this forum for sharing their copious information, and I hope that in the future I can be of more help to others who live close to Downtown.

KMGH (17)
Yes, JMartinko, there REALLY IS a KMGH (17)
Hmmm, maybe I'm not so cynical after all!

Welcome UHForever!
I too am a West-Wash Park(er), and I think it is now official. Of all of the posters on this thread, you have now bumped me from the spot of living closest to the famous KMGH wire hanger! :p

UHForever, thank you very much for the suggestions. Looking back, I realize that I actually got a Philips MANT510. (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3904681&cat=4536&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3964%3A133270%3A4536) I'll take it back and try the silver sensor, (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3904686&cat=4536&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3964%3A133270%3A4536) even though it looks quite similar. Or would you suppose the PHDTV1, (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2625055&cat=4536&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3964%3A133270%3A4536) might work better? It looks more "pointable."

...Their existing towers have antennas that are tuned to fixed frequencies (4,7,9) which are different than the ones they are assigned by the FCC for DTV (16, 17, 35). And we all know, they cannot modify the towers at all without more JeffCo hearings.

That presents an interesting option: Can the stations petition the FCC to "go digital" on their existing frequencies? No change to the towers or the antennas, no changes to be approved by the JeffCo board, nothing for sCARE to do but watch.

Maybe if the stations end up moving their towers to another location, Lookout Mountain can be converted to strip clubs and adult book stores. :rolleyes:

I still think you guys are going to end up with 2000 foot towers out on the plains, even with the problems that will present regarding "shadowing" and all.

Either that, or the FCC will have to overrule the Jefferson County commisioners.. 'cause it sure looks like they don't have any brains.

Or, your "network stations" will just keep their "toy" transmitters and rely on cable / DBS for distribution of their product.

This may have already been asked, but who is planning on attending the hearing on the 30th?

This may have already been asked, but who is planning on attending the hearing on the 30th?
I have attended them all so far and even though I have mixed emotions I will probably go.

I'd like to - my boss was actually going to join me until he heard that it was during business hours. I think I can still get the time off to go, but not 100% sure.

Do we know if the guy wire hearing is the only thing on their calendar for the 30th? If there's other business, the good stuff might not start until closer to noon.

What I don't understand is why the state doesn't get involved since this tower situation involves a lot more people than the county where the towers reside. Something about public interest in OTA TV comes to mind.

What I don't understand is why the state doesn't get involved since this tower situation involves a lot more people than the county where the towers reside. Something about public interest in OTA TV comes to mind.

I guess that the state could apply the "latest" Supreme court decision. Eminante Domain ;)

# Matt

Or would you suppose the PHDTV1 might work better? It looks more "pointable."

JeremyTebo, the antenna I have looks like the "PHDTV1" you have linked above, NOT the one with the Philips "Silver Sensor" title you have listed. Sorry for the confusion. I'm not sure what the deal is, but mine is Zenith's "Silver Sensor", which looks like the Philips PHDTV1. I don't know what the difference is between the Zenith and the Philips antennas. I purchased mine at Sears for right around $40 as well, so the prices are about the same.


Of all of the posters on this thread, you have now bumped me from the spot of living closest to the famous KMGH wire hanger!

Thanks for the Hello Jetlag, and yes, if I could not get KMGH at my location, then it truly was completely hopeless!

What I don't understand is why the state doesn't get involved since this tower situation involves a lot more people than the county where the towers reside. Something about public interest in OTA TV comes to mind.When analog shutoff time comes, they will. At least that's my prediction.

I still think you guys are going to end up with 2000 foot towers out on the plainsNot a good idea either with 3 airports out there.

I plan on going if I don't get booked for a shoot that day.

JeremyTebo, the antenna I have looks like the "PHDTV1" you have linked above, NOT the one with the Philips "Silver Sensor" title you have listed.

That would explain it, Wally World's website must be wrong. If they don't have it I'll try Sears. I'll give it a shot, thanks again.

Have been 'Lurking' on this particular forum for quite some time now, and thought I finally had something to contribute. Before I do though, I would just like to say that this forum has provided a wealth of knowledge to me, both before and since I made the jump into HDTV, and of course specifically OTA digital television a few months back, and for that I must start by saying thank you to its many contributors!

Since this board is obviously about to explode (and rightfully so) in about six days, I thought I'd offer some observations of mine that may be able to help JeremyTebo, since I'm in a similar situation, and based upon what I've been reading, Republic Plaza might be our only option for a while.

First off, I live roughly near 1st & Logan. 1/2 mile from KMGH's extremely low power transmitter on their roof, and 2 miles from Republic Plaza. I too am in a condo on the opposite side from these transmitters (the Southeast side in my case), but my building is primarily brick. I also live on the second floor, which I assume helps me a great deal. I however do NOT have another skyscraper (over 20 stories anyway) between me and Republic Plaza, which I'm sure does make a difference. I have a friend who lives Uptown, who like yourself also has a much more difficult time getting those Republic signals, although in his case it is the 'Cash Register Building' in his way, not the Qwest Building. Nonetheless, there is still hope for you...

...If there's one thing I've learned over these past few months, is that HDTV is worth it! Even in a difficult situation like Denver.

Again, thanks to all the 'old timers' on this forum for sharing their copious information, and I hope that in the future I can be of more help to others who live close to Downtown.


Hello, UHForever. Welcome to the thread. Seeing as that I'm not too far from where you live, I'm sure we'll have a lot more to discuss. :cool:

Do we know if the guy wire hearing is the only thing on their calendar for the 30th? If there's other business, the good stuff might not start until closer to noon.

For details go to this BCC Agenda (http://co.jefferson.co.us/ext/fast/commish/bccagenda.htm) for August 30th.
At least it answers one question I had. Limited testimony.

The good news, if there is any, is that on September 8th, D* will start carrying ESPN2 in HD.

I'd rather that ESPN-HD go to more than 30% HD than to get another psuedo-HD channel w/ limited HD content. Except for Sunday Night Football, ESPN-HD is the biggest disappointment in my Dish HD Pak. I hardly ever watch it. More and better HD sports on the OTA major networks.

I'd rather that ESPN-HD go to more than 30% HD than to get another psuedo-HD channel w/ limited HD content. Except for Sunday Night Football, ESPN-HD is the biggest disappointment in my Dish HD Pak. I hardly ever watch it.Agreed.
COLLEGE FOOTBALL IN HIGH DEFINITION ON ABC SPORTS HD, ESPN HD AND ESPN2 HD
ABC Sports, ESPN and ESPN2 will provide high definition telecasts of many college football games throughout the season. Every ESPN Saturday and Thursday prime-time telecast -- ESPN College Football Saturday (for the third consecutive year) and ESPN College Football Thursday (for the second straight year), respectively, will be offered in high definition on ESPN HD. For the first time, every ESPN2 College Football Saturday game will be offered in high definition on ESPN2 HD. ABC Sports will televise Miami at Florida State (Sept. 5 at 8 p.m.), two other regular-season games and all five bowl games in high definition.
So it looks like it's getting better.
More and better HD sports on the OTA major networks.
Yea, except ABC! They broadcast at least 1 national and many regional football games every weekend, and only, what 3? will be broadcast in HD? That absolutely stinks!
....jc

Yea, except ABC! They broadcast at least 1 national and many regional football games every weekend, and only, what 3? will be broadcast in HD? That absolutely stinks!
....jc

Huh? ABC has an HD channel? My STB can't find one around here.

Sorry JM, couldn't resist. :)

Got an interesting email from Pete McNally tonight.

I can't post his comments here as I don't have his permission to post his personal email, but I can say LCG has a little somethin' up their sleeve for Wed's hearing! If your reading this sCARE, I can't wait to see your faces when you hear this news on Wed!!!

Get his permission already! :rolleyes: You expect me to be able to sleep now? :eek: From the tone of your message this MUST be good news! (?) :cool:

I live in lakewood near colfax and wadsworth. These are results I never expected, so here goes:

my equipment. $12 radio shack dbs mountable antenna (this isn't the one that wraps around the top of a dish, this has a mast that mounts to the mounting arm of the dish and the antenna is a flat dish-like thing with wings coming off of it. i describe it because there is no picture on radio shack's website, although there is a page about it, and you can see some drawings of it in the manual. If you search for the part number on radio shack's website you can find the manual. the part number is 15-2180.

This I have going through a cheap splitter i bought at radio shack, then each splitted output is going into a diplexer which it came with. then on the reciever end I have another diplexer seperating the signals again and feeding my dish 811 reciever with the sat and ant. No amps, nothing like that.

My house is a 2 story duplex, I have the bottom floor. my patio has an overhang about 10 feet tall. my antenna sits about 12 feet off the ground, with the 2nd story of the house behind it. it faces east, and i have it pointed just slightly south of downtown. the antenna also pints directly into a tree that is about 10 feet in front of it.

my results:

34 KWGN-DT (2) - 40%-49% with occasional second long jumps to 70%
35 KCNC-DT (4) - 78% no dropouts or pixelation. looks great
18 KRMA-DT (6) - 84% no dropouts or pixelation. looks great
17 KMGH-DT (7) - 72% this is the one that shocks me, no amps and cheap equipment in a non-optimal spot... I was not expecting to get this one
16 KUSA-DT (9) - 92% this one is always strong.
38 KBDI-DT (12) - 69% no dropouts or pixelation. looks great
32 KDVR-DT (31) - 40%-49% with occasional second long jumps to 70%
53 KWHD-DT (53) - 80% no dropouts or pixelation. looks great

Overall I am happy that I get KMGH with such a high signal. that being said I really wish i could get KWGN and KDVR. any advice? would an amplifier help? I can't mount antenna any higher, or it will encroach on my upstairs neighbor's territory. I did try eliminating the diplexer and splitter from the equasion for testing but that did not improve any of the signal issues on 32 and 34

Got an interesting email from Pete McNally tonight.

I can't post his comments here as I don't have his permission to post his personal email, but I can say LCG has a little somethin' up their sleeve for Wed's hearing! If your reading this sCARE, I can't wait to see your faces when you hear this news on Wed!!!


I think I know the 'little somethin'. All documents that LCG can submit had to be in to the County 20 days before the hearing. CARE has seen these documents, so I don't think they will be as shocked at the hearing as you think. That said, I think they must have been shocked when they read them 19 days before the hearing. If LCG had done this from the begining, we probably wouldn't be having this hearing next week.

-Wabisabi

I know the secret, WOOHOO! :D :p :D :p

Okay the keeper's of the secret does this mean we have a solid chance of getting DTV by next year :)

Okay the keeper's of the secret does this mean we have a solid chance of getting DTV by next year :)Next year?!?! HA! HA! HA! You're a funny guy! :D

CARE has seen these documents, so I don't think they will be as shocked at the hearing as you think.Yeah, your right. sCARE would have seen them, but I bet the rest of the NIMBY saps haven't!

As we all know, just because something good might happen, it doesn't mean there won't be the inevitable, groundless lawsuits to try to stop it. Gotta' love our legal system.

Someone tell me the secret!

Someone tell me the secret!

OK, OK, I'll tell......

KMGH has announced they are upgrading their "temporary" transmitter from a duracell 9 volt battery, to a used 12 volt battery from Mike Nelsons car. Which means their signal may break the quarter mile broadcast radius barrier they have been struggling with.

OK, OK, I'll tell......

KMGH has announced they are upgrading their "temporary" transmitter from a duracell 9 volt battery, to a used 12 volt battery from Mike Nelsons car. Which means their signal may break the quarter mile broadcast radius barrier they have been struggling with.Last I heard they were quoted as sying this would cost upwards of $400,000...... :(

Ernie, I sent you an email at your comcast account.

They are going to use the recent Supreme Court ruling of Eminent Domain (Sp) and nab Deb Carney's house!
The plans are to turn it into a "Nut House"
(for selling peanuts, cashews, walnuts, etc.)

They are going to use the recent Supreme Court ruling of Eminent Domain (Sp) and nab Deb Carney's house!
The plans are to turn it into a "Nut House"
(for selling peanuts, cashews, walnuts, etc.)


I thought that ruling was a little strange when it came down, but now I can see that the justices know what they are doing after all!
:D