Oh yeah - I remember that ruling - I was quite pissed off about it... - the houses are being taken over to build a mall in Conneticut along the beach

BTW the spelling is "Eminent Domain"

This was posted today in the Colorado Springs OTA thread:

My response from Joe Reed:

We are shooting for the beginning of the NFL regular season Sept 8 2005 to begin broadcasting LIVE events with HD content.
As far as our network delay feeds I do not have a time frame at this time.
We are waiting for our encoder equipment to arrive and working out the details of our HD delay server.
We are planning our transmitter to be at full power by October 2005.

thanks for viewing

Joe Reed
Chief Engineer
Pikes Peak Broadcasting
719-575-6213

So, a few people in the Denver DMA might have a shot at KRDO HD. However, I don't know what their definition of High Power is. After working on my system this morning, I'm pretty sure, that I can't get their signal anyway.
....jc

OK, OK, I'll tell......

KMGH has announced they are upgrading their "temporary" transmitter from a duracell 9 volt battery, to a used 12 volt battery from Mike Nelsons car. Which means their signal may break the quarter mile broadcast radius barrier they have been struggling with.
OK, I'll bite. What's a KMGH??????

Hey all,
I have recently moved to the denver metro area, I like it here and within the next three weeks i'm going to be getting an integrated set!! I'm hoping to be able to get some decent signal from my apt building off evans and monaco (kind of by the 25 and yale.) I am MOST interested in getting a decent signal for nbc and abc, with fox a very close third. Any idea if i'm going to be able to get good signals? I think by the grace of god i am the only person in my complex that has an antenna on thier roof..i've looked at it a few times and it's most likely a vhf/uhf blend that i'm hoping to get good results from...i'm on the fourth floor here so i SHOULD be able to snag things if they are coming down this far...i think i'm about 5/6 mi from downtown as the crow flies. Any thoughts?

Thanks...

KL,
Welcome to Denver!

You should have a good chance of pulling in everything including the illusive KMGH. My father lives at Iliff & Parker Rd, just a bit east of you and he gets everything including KMGH. He's got a ChannelMaster 3021 into a Dish 921.

Hey, it's great to have an ISF calibrator on board. There's quite a few guys who will most likey call.

OK, I'll bite. What's a KMGH??????

I think they sell coat hangers. They’ve got one on display on top of their building.

"BTW the spelling is "Eminent Domain" "

I always heard it was "Intimate Domain"......a, sort-of, who's sleeping with who :) .

Jetlag,

Thanks for sending me a pic of your new place. Sorry to hear about your turn of bad luck at UAL. I guess going mobile is easier and a bit cheaper than having a big 'ol home. ;)
http://santellaproductions.com/newhome.jpg

santellavision:
Thanks for the warm welcome, I need to update my isf info on the site i guess then!
I can't wait for the fall lineup! Been without hd for a loooong time now...

What channel will the COS ABC station show up on, located in Castle Rock and hope and pray this is a solution for ABC!!!! Thanks.

What channel will the COS ABC station show up on, located in Castle Rock and hope and pray this is a solution for ABC!!!! Thanks.
KRDO, I believe is UHF 24, probably remapping to 13. If you've got a view of Cheyenne Mtn, you should be good.

Update: Looking at the facts, maybe not that good! A polar plot for the new antenna, due North has about 91.7% of their signal intesity. A good thing. Also, they are currently broadcasting at 1.58 kW ERP, and if they do go to full power, it'll be at 200 kW ERP.

Ok using the center of Castle Rock for the computation, from there to the transmitter is: 43.208 miles, at a North Azimuth of: 180° 42' 00". So, basically due South. However, you will have the Palmer Divide to contend with.

You'll probably need a sizeable outdoor antenna, a decent preamp, and some luck.
....jc

Jetlag,

Thanks for sending me a pic of your new place. Sorry to hear about your turn of bad luck at UAL. I guess going mobile is easier and a bit cheaper than having a big 'ol home. ;)
http://santellaproductions.com/newhome.jpg
I'm hurt, you mean Jetlag doesn't have a C-Band/Ku-Band setup for sports backhauls? Wow, I know times are tough, but damitall, this is TV we're talking about.........
:D

I'm hurt, you mean Jetlag doesn't have a C-Band/Ku-Band setup for sports backhauls? Wow, I know times are tough, but damitall, this is TV we're talking about.........
:D
I like it. A decent generator(and maybe a porta potty), Jetlag is set. And, he's got mobility. If a good game is on, he can just drive to location where OTA reception is good.

With the way the economy is(Strong and getting stronger), Jetlag may be at the forefront of the future America.

Hey Jetlag,

You might even be able to pick up KMGH if you park that rig in their parking lot (assuming no weather related problems of course) :)

Given that I know what the "LCG surprise" is I'm changing my doom and gloom outlook - I'm actually hopeful for a victory this week before the BOCC. I Don't think the BOCC can consider issues beyond why the Judge sent the case back to them and if true then the case is settled. If they vote this down I would immediately appeal because the way I understand it, they have no basis for voting this down for the reason it was sent back to them. That said I'm sure the SCARECrows are united but it's high time they get chased off for good.

With the way the economy is(Strong and getting stronger), Jetlag may be at the forefront of the future America.

This is all good the only problem is if the Super tower is approved there is no way he will be able to park it on or near Lookout Mountain. As near as I can tell he did not invest in a radiation shield. If he does maybe he can convert radiation to energy that will power the engine. Thus eliminating the high price of gasoline.

Thanks fellas, the laugh was greatly appreciated! :D

...sure got the bumper sticker right!

And now, something to go along with my new wheels:

(everybody, sing along)
"Come and listen to my story 'bout a pilot who's in the red,
a poor mountain man barely kept his doggies fed.
Then one day when his HDTV wouldn't tune,
up from the ground came the tower for LCG II"
:p

Given that I know what the "LCG surprise" is I'm changing my doom and gloom outlook - I'm actually hopeful for a victory this week before the BOCC.

I'd like to know the "surprise" if that would be possible.

That said I'm sure the SCARECrows are united but it's high time they get chased off for good

SCAREcrows.... nice! :p

I just had a pleasant surprise. I'm in the middle of my 'Antenna Upgrade', and currently KCNC is not viewable. Just for grins I checked KGWN in Cheyenne, and it's broadcasting the game. Apparently, this is a CBS West Coast game this week.

Sweet! :p
....jc

Drove up to Ultimate Electronics on 84th today in search of a Silver Sensor, Zenith listed them as a retailer. All they carry is Terk, and even though I've heard bad things about Terk, I picked up a $40 one that looks almost identical to the SS. (http://www.terk.com/HDTVi.html) Gave it a try, still no luck. The signal still bounces up and down at best, I spent a good hour moving it around. People are starting to think I've lost my marbles.

I did notice that from the roof of my building you can see the top of RP. I think the problem is that I'm on the 2nd floor of a 5 story building, and on the opposite (NW) side. So, it has to go though dozens of concrete walls before it reaches me. A friend of mine has a place on the other side of the building, so I might see if it works over there.

UHForever, did you have the problem of a "bouncing" signal, or was it just low? Mine goes from 0 up to about 98% on channel 35. It just won't lock on. Any other suggestions you can offer? I doubt a different antenna will help.

EDIT - Read some other posts that clamed that the HDTVi works as well as the SS.

Thanks for the info on ABC Ill let you know if I can get it when it gets on the air.

UHForever, did you have the problem of a "bouncing" signal, or was it just low? Mine goes from 0 up to about 98% on channel 35. It just won't lock on. Any other suggestions you can offer? I doubt a different antenna will help.
I was over at at friend's house experimenting with his new receiver. He lives close to me, but we're both 50+ miles from the Denver transmitters. He had a preamp, but it wasn't the best, so I'm fairly sure that was part of the problem. Anyway, his receiver has a signal meter and it was doing the same exact thing. Generally a good signal, but always dropping to zero. He knows a broadcast engineer who told him that he was seeing severe multipath. It looks to be exactly what you are seeing.

The HDTVprimer is must reading for everyone who is setting up an HD system. They have a page devoted to Silver Sensers, multipath, and the Two Antenna Trick. It may help you, and it's here. (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html)

Good Luck,
...jc

Thanks for the link, I checked it out. In order to pull the trick, you need to have a regular UHF channel coming from the same place to set them up. The problem that I see is there are no regular UHF channels broadcasting from RP. According to antennaweb.org, its just the three digital stations.

The website mentions short-delay and long-delay, I think I have both since I'm going straight through a big building.

What was the outcome with your friend? Were you able to pick it up?

I feel like I've gone back in time 20 years, screwing around with fickle antennas to watch TV.

Well I guess I might as well give it a try, I've come this far already.

EDIT - Just read through that link again, the worst part is at the bottom: "Don’t be too surprised if you can’t get this to work."

What was the outcome with your friend? Were you able to pick it up?
It's an ongoing project. He needs a better preamp. But he did get KUSA for awhile, and I got to see KUSA & Weather Plus for the 1st time! :eek:

He also locked in on KCNC, KBDI was there no matter what, KMGH and KRMA. So, he's definitely got some possibilities.
....jc

Much progress has been made, mostly testing though.

On Friday, we got a day with low wind, so it was time to continue. 1st we rotated the 91XG toward Cheyenne Mtn, to see what we could get. Nada, zip, zilch. Even though the transmitters are just over 19 miles away, there are simply too many mountains in the way. Ok, down it comes.

Next it was time to try the Channel Master 4228 that had arrived the day before. The 4228 is a stacked dipole reflector, a different type of antenna compared to the 91XG, which is a yagi/corner reflector.

1st we tried Cheyenne Mtn. Again, same result: Nada, zip, zilch. Even when Colorado Springs HD stations go high power, I still don't see much of a chance. Next we tried Denver. Not too bad. KGWN(5), KRMA(6), KMGH(7), and KBDI(12) popped right up. Ok, not bad, but what about KDVR? Not a peep. We then rotated the antenna a bit, directly toward Lookout Mtn. Bingo! KDVR loud and clear! Yippee! We then tried my 'weaker' receiver, the LSS-3200A. Again, Bingo. Too much short lived joy.:(

The new plan was to put the Winegard 8200 on the mast, and the 4228 on the side of the tower. The reason was that the 8200 did better for the downtown Denver transmitters, the 4228 did better for Lookout Mtn transmitter, and I was going to have to use 2 antennas to get the job done(and we needed separation between them). We then took the 4228 down so that we could get the Winegard 8200 back up on the mast, put the 8200 up, and affixed the 4228 to the top of the tower. Test again. Bummer! What happened? KDVR was no longer viewable(although it programmed). So much for that grand feeling that I had just 40 minutes ago. :( And, the 8200 needed to be tuned a bit, because I wasn't receiving everything that I had been. So, that was it for the day. We left the 4228 hooked up(I didn't have a method for combining the antennas yet, and a standard combiner is not going to make it).

So, I checked both Saturday and today, Sunday, and both mornings KDVR was coming in loud and clear. However, later in the day, the signal was dipping just enough to make it unviewable.

So, all I need now is a few more db from the 4228, and to find a suitable combiner. So The Quest is still underway.
....jc

http://www.panelcrafters.net/tower_1.jpg
The Tower(view to North, toward Denver). As you can see, lots-o-crap on it. Let's see, 3 antennas, 2 dishes, a cam and a weather station. I still may be coming up short of Jetlag's 'Mobile Studio'...

http://www.panelcrafters.net/tower_2.jpg
It looks fairly cool, but the Direcway dish, and the sidearm antenna are comming down as they don't really serve a purpose any more :D ...

http://www.panelcrafters.net/tower_3.jpg
Pike's Peak in the background(view due South)...

Originally Posted by Jeremy Tebo
UHForever, did you have the problem of a "bouncing" signal, or was it just low? Mine goes from 0 up to about 98% on channel 35. It just won't lock on. Any other suggestions you can offer? I doubt a different antenna will help.

I most certainly did. Like yourself, I have multipath issues at my location (a number of 10 to 15 story high rises within a mile radious of my location) but certainly not to the extent you probably have to deal with in the Ballpark neighborhood where you're at. Basically I just kept searching my living room for the place where the 'bouncing' of signal strength seemed to be at its least, and then fine tuned from there. One thing to keep in mind that helped me, although it seems illogical, I actually had some better luck in places the LOWER I placed my antenna, closer to the floor. Certainly this is never the case with outdoor antennas, but indoor antennas, that's another story.

Best of luck on your continued search!

OK, thanks for the tips. Tonight I'll do some more in-depth investigating, taking my show on the road. First stop - halfway though the building to my girlfriend's place to see how it works on her RP CRT. Next I'll go all the way to the other side, facing downtown, to a friends place. Worst case scenario I'll sell my setup to my friend, he has a new LCD and has never hooked up HD to it, so he should be impressed. Pretty sure it will work fine over there.

Decided to bail on the dual SS idea.

TPW - Wow.

Has anyone seen a remapped channel 32.03? I don't know what this is(and I'd like to know), and since I can't view it, I can't tell what it is. I know it's not KDVR, as it is remapping at 31.1.

Thanks,
....jc

No mysterious 32-3 here.

But while I was re-scanning, I picked up 53-1 loud and clear. Very strange.

... but I can say LCG has a little somethin' up their sleeve for Wed's hearing!
Those of us who won't be at the hearing (and I assume you meant Tuesday, not Wednesday) would love to know when you can share this information with us. I doubt any of the local news channels will carry up to the minute coverage of the hearing, and I don't know if they will consider this information as significant as we do. I'm assuming that this statement from Peter McNally (March 2002) isn't it, since it seems that this possibility has been discussed in this thread before, and that it might not be possible to take this course of action due to zoning issues:
"The strategy for gaining county approval was revealed at a March 26, 2002, meeting at KCNC mostly attended by area station engineers, Speaking was Peter McNally, an affiliate of Intermountain Corporate Affairs, the political consultancy hired to spearhead county approval. .... The four existing towers on Lookout Mountain would remain standing until the FCC enforced an analog shutdown, he said. Then the stations would replace these with four digital towers, each with its own building, so the county would have "zero gain" from refusing the new Lake Cedar application." Taken from http://www.media-visions.com/itv-denvertower3.html.

It was interesting to see all of the little alarmist signs plastered all over Lookout Mountain on Sunday. I was surprised that there weren't pictures of sick children on them. The reason the sCARE folks are complaining about property values going down probably has nothing to do with the tower - it's that nobody wants to move there and have those people as neighbors.

Good luck.

I'm only a couple minutes behind on Letterman (HD!) and it's been fine so far.

Can't get KCNC-DT. So, no audio problems for me!

So how does ol' Dave look in HD? Scary?

How about audio on KUSA DT this morning? I've got static that cycles in and out on my Comcast feed. It's enough to drown out the anchors, and it's not on the SD channel.

I watched Letterman via my 811 receiver. Was it my receiver, or did the camerman keep lopping off the top inch or two of Dave's head? This happened worst during the monolog, but also after he was seated at the desk. You think they would have let them practice first...

How about audio on KUSA DT this morning? I've got static that cycles in and out on my Comcast feed. It's enough to drown out the anchors, and it's not on the SD channel.


It's OTA too.

Anybody talked to anybody at the hearing? I hope it goes well!

Total noob here, can someone offer some advice?

I just received an HD-tivo from Directv on Saturday, they also installed an HD Antenna so I could get OTA signals. The guy that installed it didn't know much about this stuff so it was touch and go for getting everything optimized. He did get it all up and working but our main reason for the OTA HD feed, CBS (Broncos Games), doesn't seem to be working. Some of the other channels work though (Fox, WB, PBS).

I went to antenna web and typed in our Westminster address. It would seem that the antenna is pointed at 210 deg. or so to get the channels we are getting. CBS and a few others look to be at 150 deg. My question is this: if I repoint the antenna from 210 to 150 (if that is what is going on), will we likely be able to get CBS? I don't really care if we lose WB, FOX, and PBS. CBS and football is king for HDTV IMHO.

Or should I call Directv to have someone come out to adjust the antenna? I told the installer all I wanted was CBS, but he pointed it the way he was instructed, not the way I needed it to go. Would they cover this expense as it was incorrectly done the first time?

Many thanks from someone that knows very little about this OTA stuff.

zot23
Whether or not you'll be able to get KCNC-DT is a matter of trial and error. You have a decent shot at getting it if the antenna is pointed the right way but since it's pointing to the SW you have no shot at getting it. As to who pays the expense for repointing I could not begin to advise you - other than to suggest that you call DirecTv and take it up with them. Good luck!

Spent about an hour at Jeffco LCG hearing. The big news is that LCG has either acquired or obtained lease agreements for ALL properties within the setback area in question. The theory is that Judge Jacksons order stipulates that any dwellings not owned or controlled by LCG be proven safe in the event of tower(s) collapse. Since LCG now owns or controls all the dwellings, they make the setback requirements moot.
I left shortly after CARE was given the floor. Deb was having serious technical difficulty with DVD presentations and Al Hislop was providing random, disjointed testimony about towers collapsing like a tree. Ms. Carney also suggested that LCG had secret "side agreements" with the property owners so that they will still be living there when construction and demolition of the towers is underway. This would mean that LCG would not control the dwellings in question. She offered no proof other than affadavits by Al and herself talking with those residents.
The next presenter from Colorado School of Mines was also having technical difficulty with a DVD. His presentation was going to address the possible damage of a tower falling and rolling down the hill. I did not see the presentation, but at the outset he seemed a little more credible than Al and Deb.
The hearing can be extended until Sept. 27 for rebuttal, more testimony and a final decision by the BCC.

zot23 -- sounds like he pointed you toward Lookout Mtn. From my location (Arvada) I point mine directly at Republic Plaza and get CBS & NBC (same spot) as well as KWGN & KDVR. Hope this helps.

The hearing already happened? Damn, I had 9News interested. They asked me where it was going to be.

It is still going on today and will probably be extended to 9/27 IMO.

Big news (from impeccible sources, as they say):

KTVD (UPN) is aiming to have a temporary HDTV transmitter operating from Republic Plaza by the end of this year. I don't think I got permission to post their expected date, but I'm sure we'll all be Thankful when they go on the air.

Gotta get some lunch and get back to the hearing. Iwanthd - you didn't miss anything. The City of Golden had some forensic structural engineers out of California testify (quite credibly) to the same issues we'd already heard over and over again in the morning.

Biggest stumbling block I can see is if the commissioners believe that the new tower could fall over like a tree onto electrical lines and take them out.

I've only seen lawood there today - where's Ernie?

Well this last weekend I got a new antenna installed CM4228 in hopes that my reception of KCNC would come in better than the CM3023 I was using. No such luck and it appears that KUSA signal level is lower but I am not getting as much of a multipath problem.

Is the difference in carrier frequency the big reason I am not picking up any signal for KCNC? I am located about 3600 ft north and 50 feet lower than the crest of a hill which is line of sight to downtown.

Anyone know I could have one of these local "low" signal spots that I should move my antenna for? This is such and art to get these low level signals at 46 miles away.

Big news (from impeccible sources, as they say):

KTVD (UPN) is aiming to have a temporary HDTV transmitter operating from Republic Plaza by the end of this year. I don't think I got permission to post their expected date, but I'm sure we'll all be Thankful when they go on the air.



I have been told in a letter that the cost is $400,000. Channel 17 where are you?

Where is the hearing exactly? It doesn't say on SCARE's site, I guess they assume anyone who lives there knows. Maybe there's still hope for 9 News to show up.

Where is the hearing exactly? It doesn't say on SCARE's site, I guess they assume anyone who lives there knows. Maybe there's still hope for 9 News to show up.

http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/ext/fast/commish/bccagenda.htm

Thank you.

It's probably a bit late for 9news.Tthey seem to be incredibly clueless about this whole thing. But I have to give them props for getting back to me; I have yet to hear a response from the other stations I had contacted.

Great, thanks for the feedback. Sounds like if I swing that antenna around it will receive what I want.

I think I'll call D* as suggested. I could just do it myself, but I could see it invalidating some sort of contract or warranty by doing it myself since they did the initial install.

Thanks all. I'll keep my fingers crossed on the new HDTV towers, wouldn't that be nice?

Big news (from impeccible sources, as they say):

KTVD (UPN) is aiming to have a temporary HDTV transmitter operating from Republic Plaza by the end of this year. I don't think I got permission to post their expected date, but I'm sure we'll all be Thankful when they go on the air.



All this time I thought KMGH couldn't get space up there and now a smalltime network like UPN is gonna flip the switch. This really burns my bacon. :mad:

Rumor has it that the ABC affilate in Colo Springs is going full power on pike peak is this correct? How far will the signal go? Altitude will help a lot :)

I can't believe KTVD would even bother. A small station like them can't possible be swimming in cash, and UPN barely has any HD programming anyway.

Rumor has it that the ABC affilate in Colo Springs is going full power on pike peak is this correct? How far will the signal go? Altitude will help a lot :)
Actually, they'll be going full power on Cheyenne Mtn. While the transmitter radiation pattern shows about 91% due North, your best bet is luck.

From downtown Loveland to the transmitter is 114.537 miles, and the North Azimuth to the transmitter is: 174° 13' 12", so a little bit East of due South.

Shaking a bag of chicken bones while dancing in a counter clockwise circle around your antenna is probably going to help. But then again, I get KGWN(Cheyenne) from about 147 miles, so maybe you'll be in the same 'pipe'. :p

Good Luck,
....jc

Well I am closer to 112mi :) but the height of the transmitter (2156 feet HAAT) maybe just maybe when they are using 200kW of ERP who knows?

DTV I think we have a lot to learn about how far can we really go..... Thanks for the laugh on my chicken bone dance :)

I can't believe KTVD would even bother. A small station like them can't possible be swimming in cash, and UPN barely has any HD programming anyway.
Well, believe it. It's happening.

They're excited about joining the HD world, and a little frustrated that they can't seem to get their syndicated content (like Farscape) delivered to them in HD.

I'm excited that I get a whole new channel to check out this fall. I've heard good things about Veronica Mars (is that the right title?)

OK, LCG hearing status:

This morning, the JeffCo Staff (20 minutes), LCG (1 hour), sCARE (1 hour) and the City of Golden (1 hour) got time to talk. The big news was that LCG has bought (or leased - there was one cabin that they only leased, but that counts) all the occupied property within the tower fall radius of all their current towers. Should've been case closed.

The sCARE/Golden argument isn't anything brand new, but they're really focused on about three what-if issues right now:

a) What if the new tower (which is located on more of a slope than the existing towers) falls down during construction - or at any point during it's lifetime - and hurtles down the slope into the new Colorado School of Mines student housing? Or into some ritzy development that's almost done?

b) What if the new tower or the existing KCNC tower fall towards the Xcel high-tension power lines - and they'd have to fall intact - without any crumpling - and knock out 1-x number of electrical towers?

c) Our favourite, the issue of guy wire whiplash. Apparently there are several homes occupied by sCARE zealots within the tower+guy wire radius.

That went until right about noon. Then an hour for lunch.

After lunch, the individual testimony. The chair reminded everyone that the hearing was about tower fall issues only.

So we got to listen to several (although, thankfully, not nearly as many as when the testimony was open to everything under the sun) people testify that they were afraid of the power lines going down. Or the new tower sliding down the hill like a javelin into their ritzy new backyard.

It all ended before 3:00pm. The hearing is continued until September 27, at which point LCG, sCARE and the City Of Golden will have opportunities to rebut what was said today. Then the commissioners are supposed to make a decision.

It was good seeing you again, lawood. Sorry I didn't get a chance to talk after the hearing.

One more thing - the KUSA audio problem was apparently cleared up this morning. I talked to Don Perez about it, and he wasn't aware of it yet, so he called up the staff at the station and found out some super-duper-analog-to-digital-audio-encoder 2000 or something had decided to go flaky and just needed a reboot. Everything should be fine now.

Oh - one more more thing.

KUSA and KMGH had cameras there. The KUSA camerawoman said there'd be something on the 5pm news. Didn't get a chance to talk to the KMGH cameraguy.

Charley Able of the Rocky Mountain News was there yet again, so look for something in tomorrow's paper.

Sounds like 'Much Ado About Nothing' this morning. Tune in again next month. :(

I hope no one really thought it would be finished or solved today. Always the curmudgeon............just my nature I guess. Thanks a lot for the reports.

Not to add fuel to the fire, but a new concern of their's is a fire being started by a collapsing tower.

Yes it came up once again. Marv. If you turn down the tower proposal we will use the existing towers. Their response to that, according to the FCC no you won't . Well guess what there is a way in which they can.

So now it's Sept. Late Sept at that.
Then when?
I'm glad I'm moving out of this donkey town because I'd be dead before High Power HDTV makes it here.

Oh, the collapsing tower causing a fire is hilarious. I would immediately vote NO if I were on the BOCC because of this very unreal concern.

Methinks some of the SCARECrows have already been hurt by whiplash and probably would not withstand a second episode so I would again immediately vote NO if I were on the BOCC because of this (also) very unreal concern.

Let's see, the antenna is going to attract aliens because of it's unique features and location....(and because we have all sorts of weirdo's living up there with tin foil windows) so, you guessed it, I would again immediately vote NO if I were on the BOCC because of this very unreal concern.

There isn't a day in hell I would ever vote to let this tower be built because hey, those old towers are much safer and could NEVER fall, COLLAPSE, or start fires. Only the new and improved tower can do that. And hey, replacing 4 old towers with one new one only makes the odds worse I guess??????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Leonard, Can you expand on that last post? I still think that LcG II will be turned down eventually, and the station will try to use their existing towers. Why does Jeffco/sCARE say the FCC says they won't? Why is there a way they can?

Thanks, Greg

The fire scenario was if either the new tower or the KCNC tower fell and hit the electrical lines.

I really liked it when the former firefighter pulled the old "access roads aren't good enough for fire equipment" line out of retirement. :rolleyes:

Leonard, Can you expand on that last post? I still think that LcG II will be turned down eventually, and the station will try to use their existing towers. Why does Jeffco/sCARE say the FCC says they won't? Why is there a way they can?

Thanks, Greg
I can take this one.

A while back, stations had to tell the FCC what their "final" choice was for which frequency they want to keep post-analog shutoff.

I think KCNC chose to keep channel 35, as the FCC is trying to auction off the low-VHF channels (like 4, where KCNC analog is). The problem with that is that their antenna on their current tower is tuned for VHF 4, not UHF 35. So they'd have to do some work on the tower (which is not allowed) to broadcast on UHF 35 from there. So sCARE says they can't broadcast digital from their current tower because the FCC won't let them stay on channel 4.

However, I'm sure the FCC would grant waivers to stations in cases where NIMBYs are preventing the modification of existing towers.

KUSA showed up after all? Wow, I didn't think they would.

I can take this one.

A while back, stations had to tell the FCC what their "final" choice was for which frequency they want to keep post-analog shutoff.

I think KCNC chose to keep channel 35, as the FCC is trying to auction off the low-VHF channels (like 4, where KCNC analog is). The problem with that is that their antenna on their current tower is tuned for VHF 4, not UHF 35. So they'd have to do some work on the tower (which is not allowed) to broadcast on UHF 35 from there. So sCARE says they can't broadcast digital from their current tower because the FCC won't let them stay on channel 4.

However, I'm sure the FCC would grant waivers to stations in cases where NIMBYs are preventing the modification of existing towers.IIRC, it's the high UHF channels (52-69) which are due to be auctioned off.

With several years of experience however, the general consensus is that low-VHF is poorly suited to DTV broadcasting, being prone to various kinds of interference. So the vast majority of stations in the low-VHF band have chosen to move to high-VHF or UHF for their permanent frequency after analog shutoff; our own KRMA is one of the exceptions, electing to stay on channel 6.

If LCG II gets shot down and if Jeffco then refuses to allow modifications to KCNC's existing tower, I suspect KCNC could petition the FCC to change their permanent frequency back to channel 4. End result is a big loss for sCARE, as multiple towers remain for indefinite future.

Check out the GOLDEN/TV TOWER article on the from page on www.9news.com.
Eminent Domain at it's best !

sorry, it's FRONT page

I can take this one.

A while back, stations had to tell the FCC what their "final" choice was for which frequency they want to keep post-analog shutoff.

I think KCNC chose to keep channel 35, as the FCC is trying to auction off the low-VHF channels (like 4, where KCNC analog is). The problem with that is that their antenna on their current tower is tuned for VHF 4, not UHF 35. So they'd have to do some work on the tower (which is not allowed) to broadcast on UHF 35 from there. So sCARE says they can't broadcast digital from their current tower because the FCC won't let them stay on channel 4.

However, I'm sure the FCC would grant waivers to stations in cases where NIMBYs are preventing the modification of existing towers.

DR_Mal Thanks for clearing this up.

Check out the GOLDEN/TV TOWER article on the from page on www.9news.com.
Eminent Domain at it's best !
Didn't want to say anything about that, but now that it's public knowledge...

Yeah, now Golden wants to take LCG's land (which is not in Golden, BTW. It's unincorporated JeffCo) and remove free OTA TV from the entire Denver DMA. That'll go over real well :rolleyes:

So what are we looking at 2009. This obvisiously is still a long ways from being settled.

I can take this one.

A while back, stations had to tell the FCC what their "final" choice was for which frequency they want to keep post-analog shutoff.

I think KCNC chose to keep channel 35...

So sCARE says they can't broadcast digital from their current tower because the FCC won't let them stay on channel 4.
Close, but inaccurate. KCNC could have chosen to stay on channel 4, and it's likely the FCC would've approved that request.
....jc

From the 9news article:
"This is really a critical piece of property for open space purposes," said Bestor. "If you look around Golden, what makes Golden cool is undeveloped mountains.

"We feel this move is consistent with the will of our community and the will of most of the citizens of Colorado. They'd like to look at mountains, not at development."So let me get this straight. Golden wants to take the land from the TV stations for free space because they don't want to look at any development but they evidently don't mind looking at the houses that are up there? HUH?

I take it this means they'll take KWGN and KDVR property as well and shut everything down. After that we won't have to look at ugly antennas just pretty (damned expensive) houses. But wait those ugly antennas will have to go somewhere or are they thinking the front range will go without OTA TV? So let me see if I got this straight....it's okay to look at ugly towers anywhere else except on Lookout, where they want nothing but pretty houses?

The longer this goes on the more bizarre it becomes.

What I think is that Carney is influencing Golden City officials to do what she's failed to do in court. I guess if you can't baffle 'em with bullsh!t, or win it in court, then change tact and go about it a different way.

Why oh why did I ever think there was hope. I won't repeat that mistake.

City of Golden.....

What a joke "They'd like to look at mountains, not at development."

Some of them may want to watch TV. :mad:

BillyJo, BobbyJo, and BufordJo have whiskey stills. These stills where getting old, and needed to be replaced. They decided to band together, save some money, and build one big still.

Now their neighbors, DebraJo, and ScaredJo, while they were the B*Jo's best customers, decided that one big still could be a problem. Gee they thought, our whiskey costs might go up, and if we found different suppliers, we could get rid of the B*Jo's, and have a park for the kids.

Night and day, DebraJo and ScaredJo, schemed to stop the big still. They didn't want their hooch supply to dry up, but they thought they could do better. They could try to convince the rest of the bog inhabitants that they would all die if the big still is built. "When it explodes", they warned, "You'll all die".

DebraJo and ScaredJo were worried that the bogite's would favor a consistant supply of whiskey. One day DebraJo, after a typical night of whiskey embellishment, met GoldenJo. The next morning DebraJo told GoldenJo of her plan, but she wasn't confident that it would work. "No Problem" GoldenJo told her, as a Bog elder, the Bog could simply take the "High Country", as it's better for all the bogite's to enjoy.

The bog elders, hoping the bogite's believed the 'spin', were never the less worried. What would happen if the whiskey supply dried up? However, they were elected on their promises of a new park. They decided, fearing for their livelyhoods, the big still couldn't be built.

Time went on, and the stills started to malfunction and whiskey production ceased.

Today the tombstones of DebraJo, ScaredJo and GoldenJo lie beneath a huge still erected on BJO hill, and everyone is happy. The kids play in the new BJO park, whiskey flows freely, and the bog is once again content.

Well there were a couple of resturants I use to frequent in Golden. NO MORE! Between Golden's stance on the Northwest Corridor and now the tower, these NOTHING in Golden I can't get elsewhere or do without. Golden has become Boulder South!

If you would like to thank the City Golden, here names, positions and email addresses:

Mike Bestor, City Manager, mbestor@ci.golden.co.us
Charles Baroch, Mayor, cbaroch@ci.golden.co.us
Arthur Chen, City Council, achen@ci.golden.co.us
Mark Heller Director, Golden Urban Renewal Authority, mark@gura.com
Dave Ketchum, City Council, dketchum@ci.golden.co.us
Bob Nelson, Mayor Pro Tem, bnelson@ci.golden.co.us
Karen Oxman, City Council, koxman@ci.golden.co.us
Jacob Smith, City Council, jsmith@ci.golden.co.us
Lynne Timpeiro, City Council, ltimpeiro@ci.golden.co.us

Below is the email I just sent thanking the above elected officials.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Goodbye Golden

Dear Mr Bestor, Mayor Baroch, Councilor Chen, Mr Heller, Councilor Ketchum, Mayor Pro Tem Nelson, Councilor Oxman, Councilor Smith and Councilor Timperio
I've had the pleasure to live and work in Colorado for 16 years. Seven of those years I worked in Golden at Coors. I was also proud to tell people I lived in Golden for those 7 years. There's still several resturants and stores in Golden I've enjoyed frequenting. Well, times have changed. With Golden's arrogant, in your face stance against aligning the Northwest Corridor along highway 93, the only logical route in my mind, and now the threat to use eminent domain to delay or prevent the building of Lake Cedar Group DTV tower I say NO MORE! There is NOTHING, NOTHING in the City of Golden I can't get elsewhere or do without. I'll never spend another red cent in the City of Golden. I'll be sure to let my friends and co-workers know about Golden's new found Boulder-ism and encourage them to spend their disposable income else where.

Goodbye Golden!

Aubrey Whitley

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, cities must look out for themselves and their constituents but they must also understand they are part of a larger community and should cooperate for the greater good.

Thanks for posting all of those email addresses Audbrey, after seeing your email I decided to do something similar, below is my email that was sent to the same addresses.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Thank You Golden!

Thank You Golden for making it even easier for me to no longer visit your area!

After hearing about your issues with the new DTV tower proposal you have made me realize that I don't need to support your city in any way. As much as I used to enjoy visiting your city, that will no longer be the case.

Your short-sighted and careless attitude will punish everyone in the Denver metro area. I hope that whatever taxpayer money you plan to spend on taking over the land that Lake Cedar has lawfully and properly acquired will make the city bankrupt.

You probably don't even realize that by doing what you have proposed you will make the situation on Lookout Mountain worse, since it will force ALL of the existing towers on Lookout Mountain to remain there FOREVER. The Lake Cedar proposal is to construct a new tower that will sit lower on the mountain, be less visible AND remove a lot of the towers that are already there. Just in case you did not read that the first time, REMOVE towers. Your statements about wanting to "look at mountains, not developments" does not make any sense, since their proposal will remove most of the towers that have been in place for 50+ years!

Blocking the Lake Cedar proposal will not help your situation on Lookout Mountain, in case you have not heard the conversion to DTV is an FCC mandate, that WILL happen on 1/1/2009 at the latest. If this tower does not get built, then the broadcasters will be forced to just convert the current analog broadcast towers over to digital, thus keeping all of the towers that Lake Cedar is proposing to remove.

Maybe you should be working with Lake Cedar, so that you can see about getting all of that land that will be available once the old towers are removed and turn that into the open space that you think is so necessary?

Hopefully you have a change of heart on this issue, because you are definitely not looking out for Colorado's future.

Steve Wake

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure how much a difference it will make, but at least I feel better "getting it off of my chest".

An excerpt from my post of July 21:

"I believe, although I hope I'm wrong, that sCARE will employ every delay tactic known to man with the full cooperation of their friends at JeffCo until analog shutoff. Then, because, as I understand it, the existing analog towers are not suitable for digital transmissions, they will reach their goal and be rid of all towers."

I hope I'm not Karnac, but after today's posts, it seems to me that sCARE's goal remains removing all towers from Lookout.

A while back, there were some posts that referred to how cell phone companies are forcing local gov'ts to allow them to build their cell towers based on the fact they have FCC licenses to operate and local gov'ts cannot deny their use of the licenses via the denial of cell towers - public interest/good. It seems to me that once all of the phantom "safety" issues are addressed by LCGII, and they probably all can be, then this cell phone tower philosophy could be applied by LCGII. If it could, it probably wouldn't matter if Golden condemned the Lookout property since LCGII would be able to exercise it's "rights" per its clients (TV stations) FCC licenses. Does this make sense to anyone else?

Maybe another pro-HDTV city can take the land for Open Space and leave the TV stations there.

Any chance of Denver annexing it and calling it part of Denver County?

Emails to Golden are priceless. Any chance of doing the same to the retailers you are boycotting so they can apply some local leverage?

Technically it may not be possible to convert the existing analog towers to digital towers under Jeffco zoning (sCARE argues NTSC and ATSC are different services and not grandfathered). But who believes that won't happen? The Gov, FCC, or such will step in and at least allow ATSC over existing NTSC equipment. Or will Jeffco cut the power to the station? I can see Judge Jackson isuing an injuction though.

TotallyPrewired - Have you ever looked at the Candian option? Not local, but you would get football and networks in HD.

Glad to see this thing is finally getting some media attention. Unfortunately I've lost all hope for this tower (I was probably the only one who had some hope left). Well boys and girls, it's going to be LONG time before Denver gets to see any full-power OTA HD.


Oh, has anyone seen, or heard from Ernie? It’s kind of weird that he just disappeared today...

You don't suppose, "they" got him do you?

TotallyPrewired - Have you ever looked at the Candian option? Not local, but you would get football and networks in HD.
Yes, but I'm trying to avoid more monthly charges. I've also thought about 'moving', but again, there's another $45 a month.

All sCARE has done is make receiving the signals a bigger challenge. I already have ABC & NBC via satellite, so all I really need is CBS(got it from Cheyenne) and Fox. I'm not out of the game yet!
....jc

Hi everybody,
Sorry, I got a last minute call to go to NC to shoot. I really wanted to be there. Thanks for all the coverage. It was just like being there.

I already have ABC & NBC via satellite, so all I really need is CBS(got it from Cheyenne) and Fox. I'm not out of the game yet!
....jc

JC, You've got ABC from satellite? I know you're a long ways out but I'm still surprised you got waivers! Who granted those and when?

BTW, love the antenna farm! I'm sure there's a place on ebay for the satellite broadband.

TPW,

Really liked your pictures of your antenna farm. Regarding Fox, I don't recollect your trying to pull in DT21 from Ft. Collins from your recent posts. I'm in Highlands Ranch and I get it stronger than DT32. Just wondering.

........ Golden has become Boulder South!........
HEY, WATCH IT! Some of us actually live in Boulder and like it......being compared to Golden is a low blow.
:D

b5lurker
I glad someone else made use of those email addresses. Though I doubt we'll hear any response from the Goldenites.

I'll have lunch with some former co-workers at Coors in a couple of weeks. We'll not eat in Golden.

Does anyone know if Denver West and Colorado Mills is in the city limits of Golden or is it Lakewood? dexonline should the resturants there as both in Golden and in Lakewwood. Too strange.

HEY, WATCH IT! Some of us actually live in Boulder and like it......being compared to Golden is a low blow.
:DI was speaking to the political leanings of Boulder. Hey! Some my best friends live in Boulder. ;)

I was speaking to the political leanings of Boulder. Hey! ...... ;)
So was I.
:D

BTW, I like the idea of the letters to Golden too, although to be honest, other than the occasional visit to the Taj for DTV I can't threaten them with the loss of any business myself.

Does anyone know if Denver West and Colorado Mills is in the city limits of Golden or is it Lakewood? dexonline should the resturants there as both in Golden and in Lakewwood. Too strange.
Those are in Lakewood. My office is on the other side of I-70 from Denver West and is in Golden. So for me, it's kind of 50/50 whether I go down Old Golden Road for lunch in Golden or over to the Mills and eat in Lakewood. Sorry, it used to be about 50/50. Old Golden Road is dead to me :mad: I'll miss Woody's Wood Fired Pizza downtown Golden and the KFC/A&W on Old Golden Road. And I guess I'll need to find a new place to service my vehicles. Too bad - Stevinson's Ford had the best service I'd found. :(

E-mail sent to Stevinson's Golden Ford:
Just wanted to pass my thanks along to John Clute and the rest of the service team. You guys have provided all my scheduled (and unscheduled) maintenance needs for my Focus and Explorer since 2003. Your team is unmatched. However, due to recent decisions by the City Of Golden (*), I can no longer support businesses who collect sales tax that goes to the loonies running the City of Golden.

I'm very sorry about this decision, as I've never had anything but good experiences with you guys. I bought my Explorer from you in 2004 and was planning on buying a Mustang from your dealership next summer - both direct results of the outstanding service I've received from your service department.

Thanks again, and so long.

(*) see http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=098cfd2e-0abe-421a-00cb-8f84ecf5f8e1&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf for details
With full contact information included in the forms on the web-mail so they can contact me if they wish.

Another brilliant collaboration between the City of Golden and sCARE - not only do they not want HDTV in Denver, but they also don't want the 470 loop to be completed: http://www.bettertrafficsolutions.com/Page.asp?NavID=100

E-mail sent to Stevinson's Golden Ford:

With full contact information included in the forms on the web-mail so they can contact me if they wish.Good for you Dr_Mal. It's sad that stuff like this has to happen but if there are more folks like you it would make a difference. I, like jm, can't threaten them with any loss of business because they don't get any business from me to begin with.

Those are in Lakewood. My office is on the other side of I-70 from Denver West and is in Golden. So for me, it's kind of 50/50 whether I go down Old Golden Road for lunch in Golden or over to the Mills and eat in Lakewood. Sorry, it used to be about 50/50. Old Golden Road is dead to me :mad: I'll miss Woody's Wood Fired Pizza downtown Golden and the KFC/A&W on Old Golden Road. And I guess I'll need to find a new place to service my vehicles. Too bad - Stevinson's Ford had the best service I'd found. :(If you need a Woody's fix, I there one in Westminster 80th and Sheridan and one in Broomfield. North past 36 on Wads. Yeah, it's a little far from work for lunch.

Good for you Dr_Mal. It's sad that stuff like this has to happen but if there are more folks like you it would make a difference. I, like jm, can't threaten them with any loss of business because they don't get any business from me to begin with.It's not your individual business that will hit them in the tax coffers. It's telling your friends, who will tell their friends, who will tell their friends. It's word of mouth discrediting.

I'll pass on a similar story:

Let me give you another customer service story. I was visiting Colorado from North Carolina. At that time I was getting more serious about bicycling and was looking for a new bike. The selection is much greater in Colorado. So I go the Denver Spoke. A well-known and then heavily advertised shop. I test rode one or two bikes. I ask the salesman what could they do on the price. I happened to over hear him talking to the manager. His exact words were "He's just a shopper. Tell him today's price, and today only, is XYZ". HMM!?!?! Yes I was just shopping but was planning to move to Colorado and get a new bike. Well the move to Colorado took a little longer and I bought a new bike in NC first. After I moved here I need a few bike things - intertubes, etc. The Denver Spoke had a sale on. Great! I'll go check them out again. Maybe my first experience was just a bad day. I walked in and wandered around. I ask one salesman where the tubes where. "Over there" was his reply as he continued to walk away, no eye contact, no nothing. I found out a co-worker of mine use to race on the Denver Spoke team. He told they treated their team riders the same way. Double HMM!?!?! But you know the most interesting part of this story? It happened 15 YEARS ago and I still tell people about it. To this day, I've never been back to the Denver Spoke. They don't have anything I can't get elsewhere or do without.


I keep this text in a notepad file so I can just cut and paste when needed. Now you're probably think "What a bitter, vindictive person!". HMMM!!! For the most part no. But I will not reward behavior I find objectable.

So, Akastp tip based on the service, which is usually wonderful at The Briarwood. Just don't go there again. :D I to will miss my annual or bi-annual wedding anniversary trip to the Briarwood.

80th and Sheridan would work for dinner after work. It's kind of on the way back to Brighton.

So, Akastp tip based on the service, which is usually wonderful at The Briarwood. Just don't go there again. :D I to will miss my annual or bi-annual wedding anniversary trip to the Briarwood.
I enjoyed the Briarwood the one time we went there. Some of our other favourite expensive places to eat for special occasions: The Broker (downtown Denver), The Fort (Morrison), Rodizio's Grill (downtown Denver), The Denver Buffalo Company (RIP) (downtown Denver).

I'd love to see the faces of the SCARE people, when they have no TV to watch anymore, and the Denver stations, rightfully, REFUSE to give them waivers :) .

There is no way that Golden can use its powers of Eminent Domain because it doesn't have any power. The towers are located outside of Goldens Borders. Just because Telluride has tried to "set the standard" this is to big, The public along the entire front range won't let sCARE or Golden win this.




PS: JETLAG, F9 is looking for F.O.s

There is no way that Golden can use its powers of Eminent Domain because it doesn't have any power. The towers are located outside of Goldens Borders. Just because Telluride has tried to "set the standard" this is to big, The public along the entire front range won't let sCARE or Golden win this.




PS: JETLAG, F9 is looking for F.O.sAs I tried to say in a previous post their argument makes no sense whatsoever. It's not as if they can use Eminent Domain to remove the towers and then expect the towers to be torn down and never rebuilt. Tearing the towers down would result in them being built somewhere else. They are going to exist, and they are going to exist where they'll be seen (unless Carney and/or Hislop have figured out how to disguise them as a very tall tree or something). Golden argues they want free space and that tearing down the towers allows them to have free space and also to rid the Front Range of the blight cause by the towers. The fact is the tower "blight" will only be relocated. Their reasoning is thinly veiled garbage. Even Judge Jackson would have to see thru that crap. This is nothing more than an end run to try and rid the mountain of towers with very little to do regarding free space. I am not all hopeful anything is really going to get resolved anytime soon but Golden's chances of winning the Eminent Domain case is about as good as me inheriting Bill Gates money. What they want to do is line their own pockets with increased property values while screwing everyone else along the Front Range. That just ain't gonna fly. It might however throw enough monkey wrenches into the works to delay the process even longer.

Replacing 4 towers with 1 makes so much sense that only the fools can't see the value of it. Too bad there are plenty of fools running involved in this process.

JC, You've got ABC from satellite? I know you're a long ways out but I'm still surprised you got waivers! Who granted those and when?

I already had NBC, and when I got it, ABC was not available. When I called last time to try and get Fox, the lady indicated that I could get ABC. Apparently, KRDO has a 'blanket waiver' for certain people(I'm in Teller county). I don't know why I grabbed it, because I can get KMGH from Denver rock solid(Viagra commercial?)

BTW, love the antenna farm! I'm sure there's a place on ebay for the satellite broadband.Thanks, and getting rid of the Direcway dish just hasn't been a priority!

TPW,

Really liked your pictures of your antenna farm. Regarding Fox, I don't recollect your trying to pull in DT21 from Ft. Collins from your recent posts. I'm in Highlands Ranch and I get it stronger than DT32. Just wondering.
Well, things are in a state of 'flux'. My tower climbing friend has to leave for a month, so anything to do with the tower is on hold. We took the CM 4228 down so I could do some testing with it in his absence.

My receiver has programmed UHF 21 several times, however the signal has never been strong enough to watch. :( I'll keep working on it!

Does anyone have a link or photo of the planned location of the proposed tower? Riding through Golden tonight (I spent no money there, but made sure to make use of the bike path and open space trails) and looking at the towers, I don't believe any reasonable person could conclude that any of the existing towers could make their way all the way down hill to any of the homes at the bottom. Unless the new tower is going to be placed significantly lower, I don't see how it could make it down there either.

And I love this quote: "This is really a critical piece of property for open space purposes," said Bestor. "If you look around Golden, what makes Golden cool is undeveloped mountains." He must mean the tops of the mountains, because the base of Lookout is looking pretty full to me. I'm sure Mr. Bestor will find a way to keep adding more homes. I guess his view of the mountains (and other things) is pretty narrow.

This veiled threat from the City of Golden has me a little perplexed. Doesn't the affected area have to be within the city limits in order to excercise Eminent Domain? (That's why the zoning process is going in front of the County Commisioners, right?) If that is the case, then wouldn't Golden have to annex the property first before they can use this tactic? I thought I heard that the city was going to buy the land, but then who own the land now? Plus, doesn't annexation require some sort of process where the people or affected property owners have a say as to whether or not they want to be a part of the city? (Remember that was how Centennial was formed after quite a few people got upset over Greenwood Village annexing all the good tax property and no residential property.) Just chalk up the City of NIMBY, er, Golden to gumming up the process beyond recognition. :mad:

Here is Charley's article, it's basically the same ol' story:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4042755,00.html

..........
And I love this quote: "This is really a critical piece of property for open space purposes," said Bestor. "If you look around Golden, what makes Golden cool is undeveloped mountains."
I could be wrong (is that really possible???) but I think the 'undeveloped mountains' he is referring to is the undeveloped mountains of MONEY the local homeowners and developers stand to make if they can have all of the towers eventually removed from the hillsides of Lookout Mountain. :rolleyes:

So where do we get our:

WANT HDTV?
BOYCOTT GOLDEN

bumper stickers?

Okay how about a state wide ballot proposal that would end this thing forever so we could move on. It isn't just a county or city issue. I know the western slope and colorado spring don't really care about this but a vast majority of the states population does.

I would sign in a heartbeat to put on a statewide a vote for an exemption from local zoning laws for the towers. We approved gambling in the state for a few towns why not this which affects people every day?

I'm not impressed by the threat that Golden will use eminent domain to seize the existing towers and tear them down. You think they're going to do that before the analog shutoff? Folks are already riled up about eminent-domain abuse after the recent Kelo decision by the Supreme Court.

I believe all the stations are giving LCG one last go through the process, but will just give up after that. When analog shutoff comes, they'll continue to use their current towers and equipment. All of them except KCNC have elected to keep their current analog frequency after the shutoff, so no modifications are required. I expect KRMA to do the same - work on their alleged Mt. Morrison site is coming pretty slow, ain't it?

If LCG2 had been approved, I believe the stations would have kept their digital frequencies instead which would have allowed some equipment sharing between 16,17,18,19 in the original consortium.

Humm oxothux, you gave me pause for thought. What if KRMA kept Ch 6 and stayed on Lookout and let KCNC move over to Morrison for CH35???

KRMA is keeping 6 after analog shutoff.

KRMA is keeping 6 after analog shutoff.right. KCNC is the only one of the original LCG group which isn't keeping it's current analog assignment.

So what happens (long term) to WB2? They are doing 1/2 power on a short tower because the way the regs were written, they could modify that one since it was below a certain height.
Does anyone think that means they may have to stay on the small tower at 1/2 power even after analog shutoff? Just curious.

KRMA is keeping 6 after analog shutoff.I know that.
The question then becomes - why move off of Lookout? They aready have facilities there and wouldn't have to change their tower. It's their cheapest alternative.

Likewise if KCNC wants CH 35 they could move to Morrison and make use of that facility which has already been approved. They wouldn't have to try to get permission to change their tower on Lookout to accomodate a CH 35 antenna and could avoid that nightmare process.

I guess the fly in the ointment is I think KRMA was approved for Morrison contingent upon them removing their gear from Lookout.

Does anyone think that means they may have to stay on the small tower at 1/2 power even after analog shutoff? Theoretically, yes. Practically, no.

One of two things is going to happen - (a) LCG gets built or (b) LCG doesn't get built and the stations mostly just switch analog for digital when the shutoff comes. Either way, TV transmission stays on Lookout Mountain for the indefinite future and sCARE is essentially defeated. Once that sinks in, all the steam whooshes out of these controversies and simple matters like increasing the power level on KWGN become routine zoning matters again which can be routinely approved; you won't even get a dozen people at the hearing.

I think it quite likely at that point that KCNC gets to switch out their gear as well - I mean how much enthusiasm can sCARE gin up to remove one TV antenna out of ten?

I actually got a response tonight from my email to all of the Golden city officials, not too surprising it is like a word for word response from sCARE.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Wake:

Thank you for sending your email and voicing your opinion. However, you omit stating where you reside, other than stating that you "visit" Golden. There are many facets regarding the Tower issue, other than a handful of outsiders who want their HDTV NOW!! To name several of these aspects:

1. An almost-certain decrease in property values due to the location of the Super Tower, as well as other towers;

2. Endangerment of their health, safety and welfare; and, this does not apply to those living in the near vicinity of the Towers, it will affect all of the surrounding areas; and,

3. The loss of enjoyment of one's own property for those who own property in the adjoining area of the Towers.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your opinion.

Lynne Timpeiro,
District One Councilor
City of Golden, Colorado

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Not even sure if I am going to start an email war with her, but we all know what the response is to all 3 of these points. Now we know that sCARE has the city of Golden in it's pockets.

She also copied everyone that I originally emailed from the list posted earlier.

Steve

HEY! I got a reply email. Here's the text

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ms. Whitley:

Thank you for sending your email and voicing your opinion. However, since you apparently no longer reside in Golden ("I lived"), you should be apprised of the following facts:

1. With respect to both issues (the Parkway and the Towers), the majority of the residents of Golden are opposed to both and have very strong, viable reasons for their opposition;

2. Not living in Golden means that your property value will not decrease by either the Parkway nor the Towers;

3. Your health, safety and welfare are not endangered by either the Parkway or the Towers; and

4. Having lived in Golden, you should realize that people visit here (as well as those who live here) to take in the magnificent scenery; they visit downtown to see the historical building and parks; and, Golden gives people an opportunity to become more in tune with nature -- all of which will be destroyed if the Parkway is allowed to come through this wonderful town.

Again, I thank you for taking the time to voice your opinion.

Lynne Timpeiro,
District One Councilor
City of Golden, Colorado

---------------------------------------------------------------


My reply

---------------------------------------------------------------

Councilor Timpeiro

That is correct, I use to live in Golden and as the Raven said "Nevermore". My only regret is that I can no longer vote in city elections.

I'd love to debate your "facts" with you but in my life I've learned not to argue with zealots.

I'll be sure to wave as a drive on hwy 6, hwy 93 or hwy 58. Which, by the way, are 4 lane highways that already come through your wonderful town. That is unless a tower falls and crushes my car.

Have a nice life!

Former Golden resident
Mr. Aubrey Whitley

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a good day when you can pi$$ off a politician! :D

Yo Steve!
Don't you love personal responses. Perhaps all of us need to start email wars with the city of Golden and sCare. Maybe we could occupy all of their free time. They'd be too busy replying to emails to attend the meetings or to frazzled.

I think Golden is going to lose on both the NW corridor and the tower(s). CDOT has already decided on the Golden route. One way or another, there WILL be towers on Lookout mountain. Actually I'm kind of sentiment about the old towers. I proposed to my wife near them. HMM!!! Maybe that radiation does have an effect after all. :D

Well, I decided to type up a response to her email after all. I replied to everyone that she copied and I added the general mailbox for all 4 of the LCG stations (would have sent it to someone at LCG, but I lost of their email addresses).

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Councilor Timpeiro,

Where I reside makes no real difference on this issue, but I live in unincorporated SE Arapahoe county.

It's too bad that your response to my email exactly echoes the points that we have been hearing from CARE for the last 7+ years on this issue. And unfortunately after all of that time NONE of these points have been proven valid. Below are my responses to each of "your" points:

1. The original towers that are going to be replaced by the LCG proposal were in place long before anyone moved onto Lookout mountain, so everyone that has built houses and moved up there knew about them at the time. They must not have had any concerns about the these issues at that time. Plus, property values have steadly increased over the years with the towers that are currently there, and with the new LCG proposal a bunch of the towers will be removed, so that should increase property values even more.

2. There have been many studies of this over the years and there has been no conclusive proof on this issue. I live in a development next to some Xcel high transmission power lines and many said the same thing about them too, but again no conclusive proof and I don't sweat about it at all (and would not have moved here if I thought this was a problem). If the people that currently live on Lookout Mountain are that concerned about the health issues then they should move.

3. As for the "enjoyment" of their property, as I stated above, the towers were there first. You cannot move into a place where something has been in place for 50+ years and expect it to all disappear. The towers have to go somewhere, Lookout Mountain was determined to be that place a long time ago. If it's not on Lookout, where do you want them, in someone else's backyard? Lookout has been proven to be the best place for these towers so that the whole Denver metro area can receive the FREE channels (analog and digital) that EVERYONE is entitled to.

This is not about HDTV, this about everyone in the Denver area being able to receive the free TV channels that we all have the right to receive. As I said my original email this is an FCC mandated change, keep on the blocking and ALL of the towers that are on Lookout Mountain will be on Lookout. LCG offers the chance for some of the towers to come down and decrease the radiation levels (which you are so concerned about).

Thank you for stating your issues with the LCG proposal, but I still disagree 110% with all of "your" points. I and many other Denver area residents that follow this issue are starting a boycott Golden campaign, so I am not the only one with these views.

Steve Wake

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess that I am getting a certain satisfaction in feeling like I am stating my opinion, probably not making a difference, but you never know.

At this point, I don’t mind waiting until the analog shutoff date. The stations can then convert their existing towers to digital. And as long as I know the people of Golden who were opposed to LCG2 will be looking at that antenna farm for as long as they live there, I’m happy.

I know have the state turn lookout mountain into a park then they are the only ones that can say what goes on the land :) Hearing the wind run through the guy wires and making that wonderful whistling sound.......:)

Clear back in 1997 the National Association of Broadcasters expressed a concern with the FCC. Here is the Q&A regarding that concern.

Q. What is the status of the FCC's rulemaking proceeding on the broadcast industry's request for federal limits on the time it takes for state and local authorities to rule on tower sitings?

A. In May of 1997, the FCC received a petition from the National Association of Broadcasters and the Association for Maximum Service Television arguing that local zoning regulations may make it impossible for many broadcasters to meet the schedule for introduction of DTV. Expressing concern that the local approval process would take too long, these petitioners asked the FCC to adopt a rule allowing preemption of local regulations when those regulations or review process exceeded a particular length of time that would delay the introduction of DTV.

Seeking input from the public, the FCC issued a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Notices/1997/fcc97296.html) (NPRM) on this matter in August 1997. The FCC recognized the need to balance the important federal policy of expediting the implementation of DTV with the importance of being "sensitive to the rights of states and localities" to protect the interests of their citizens. The FCC made clear that the purpose of the NPRM was to solicit critically important public comment and not to infringe upon state and local rights.

The FCC has not reached any conclusions or made any final decisions on this matter. All of the comments are being reviewed and considered and the FCC is ensuring that all the parties are heard. A tremendous volume of comments has been submitted by the public, local and state regulators, state and national legislators and the various industries affected. In the interim, television broadcasters and representatives of state and local governments are meeting to explore ways to cooperate and to have FCC personnel supply information and expertise to the local governments to facilitate the approval process.
[End]

The question is will the time come when LCG/Local Broadcasters will need to go to the FCC and say. We have been trying since 2003 to get a proposal (one that gives them a better situation then what currently exists) accepted, but keep running into for whatever reason a road block.
As a result we are running out of options and time to meet the DTV conversion deadline.
I know the FCC hopes and wants the broadcasters and local governments/officials to work together and iron out any differences, but it ain't going to happen.
I also realize the FCC doesn't really want to get involved however it looks the the time is approaching where they may have to. With the NPRM they do have the authority to get involved. Now it just remains whether or not they want to exercise this option.
Should they need to get the FCC involved it would be with a very solid and detailed proposal not the opposite.

The question is will the time come when LCG/Local Broadcasters will need to go to the FCC and say. We have been trying since 2003 to get a proposal (one that gives them a better situation then what currently exists) accepted by the local government. So far every attempt has been denied.

Actually, the local government has approved the rezoning, then re-affirmed the zoning on a remand. (Additionally, the local government approved another rezoning on Mt. Morrison, so the fault cannot be seen as the local government's alone.)

-Wabisabi

Actually, the local government has approved the rezoning, then re-affirmed the zoning on a remand. (Additionally, the local government approved another rezoning on Mt. Morrison, so the fault cannot be seen as the local government's alone.)

-Wabisabi

Thanks. I have changed the wording. What I am trying to get across will the time come when for whatever reason they can call for assistance from the FCC.

With all this talk about antennas, and some incredible photos posted of folks antenna farms (mobile and otherwise) I thought I should show my setup for getting the denver hd locals.

Note the elaborate (multi-bungie) mounting system which facitates fine tuning for precise alignment of my $22 R.S. uhf screamer. Also the trees directly in the path which provide the necessary filtering to remove unwanted signals, terrestrial based and otherwise. This has been in place about 2 1/2 years, with 'maintenance' consisting of every six months or so going out and whacking it somewhat indiscrimently with the nearest available object if one or more stations has stopped coming in propertly. I live about 40 miles northwest of downtown denver, and I get everything just fine with the obvious exception of KMGH whose transmitter apparently about matches my antenna setup in terms of equiptment quality/expense/and general implementation.

Set

Set,

Love it!!!!

Actually I think you are a leg up over Keep My Gophers Happy

# Matt

dsset,

Now I know what's wrong with my setup. I need to bend the corner reflector elements on the bottom part of my yagi.

Great picture!

The FCC has not reached any conclusions or made any final decisions on this matter. So how do we force a time limit on the FCC to decide on enacting a time limit on local goverment?

dsset,

Now I know what's wrong with my setup. I need to bend the corner reflector elements on the bottom part of my yagi.

Great picture!

Good eyes Mike!

Indeed, the essential and precise 'bending' of some of the antenna elements that you so astutely noted occurred during one or more of the 'maintenance operations' described above. The technique I employ is to hurl (I prefer a sidearm approach, but others may may opt for a full overhand toss) any handy dispensable object at the antenna, check for signal improvement/degradation, repeat as necessary. I've also found that birds perched on the elements improve the signal, and have thus toyed with the idea of glueing a stuffed bird to an element in homage to that most wonderful "Dead Parrot" Monty Python routine.

1. An almost-certain decrease in property values due to the location of the Super Tower, as well as other towers;
Oh my God! sCARE has morphed into sCOLDEN. Has Golden ever stated problems with the existing towers? It sounds like they've been working with sCARE all along, which is spooky, and possibly illegal. This could get interesting!
....jc

Today, I got on the D* website to look at options for a PPV this W/E. Looking at my services, I found that CBS/W had been added to my HD offerings. Way cool! Was it really there? I tried, and sure enough, there it was.

Now the questions is: Why?

Originally, all I had was NBC, and the reason was no Grade B or better signal out here. A few weeks ago, due to a 'blanket' waiver from KRDO, they let me add ABC/W. So, I had 2 of the four networks. I didn't do anything, and now I've got CBS/W.

The only thing that I can think of is the Significantly Viewed channels which has been mandated by the FCC, and D* is working on. Now, I know that KCNC is an SV station for Teller county. And everyone in the Denver DMA gets CBS/W correct?

That is the only thing that makes sense.
....jc

So how do we force a time limit on the FCC to decide on enacting a time limit on local goverment?
It appears to me that this is up to NAB's. They need to put pressure on the FCC by saying we have made every reasonable attempt to meet the DTV conversion and have run into nothing but resistance and if something isn't done there is no way we can meet the deadline. Also alternate options are not feasible as there is no guarantee of success here either and a considerable amount of time would be required to persue an alternate. These DTV conversions can not happen over night. Its all about time to meet and complete the DTV conversion and time is running out.

With all this talk about antennas, and some incredible photos posted of folks antenna farms (mobile and otherwise) I thought I should show my setup for getting the denver hd locals.
Dssset,
Your 'multi-bungie' design could be the future of HD TV! In these times of HD 'stress & anger', pioneers such as youself, are the future of this country. We don't need illegal aliens or work visas to get things done. We need people like you! If Americans would all bind together, all Americans would have genuine HD TV. Your creativity is the base of what made this country great(we're currently going backwards, but with your help we can change that).

Through your efforts, literally millions will have the means to 'see' the future.

Keep up the good work! And, don't let anybody sCARE you into submission!
....jc

I sent a letter to Golden also.Ladies & Gentlemen,

I am a resident of Golden and live in Genesee. My family lives in the 'beam' of the signals of the current, old technology Lookout Mt. towers. And I believe you have been dangerously misled by C-A-R-E as to the 'real' facts about the LCGII consolidation tower.

C-A-R-E Myth #1: The new consolidation tower will emit more RF emissions.
Truth: Incorrect, the new tower will use new 'directional' antennas to focus ALL the signals AWAY from residents on Lookout Mt. especially the residents like myself who live at an altitude of being 'in the beam' of the old towers.

C-A-R-E Myth #2: The stations will never remove the old towers.
Truth: Incorrect again, they will by the proposal, remove the old towers when the new, smaller consolidation tower is completed. Thus, improving the visual impact of the mountain tremendously.

C-A-R-E Myth #3: The new consolidation tower will decrease property values in Golden, and on Lookout Mt.
Truth: Incorrect yet again, the reduction of ANY towers (The LCGII proposal will reduce 3) will obviously INCREASE property values, not decrease them.

C-A-R-E Myth #4: You will use Imminent Domain to remove ALL towers on Lookout Mt.
Truth; Did you consider the fact that the City of Golden's Police, Fire, Emergency and Public Works communications all use Lookout Mt. for THEIR towers? You would be crippling your own city by removing all the towers.

I do not understand your thinking on this matter. It's a win-win for all, well... except the lawyers.

Thank you,
Ernie & Sharon Santella

Today, I got on the D* website to look at options for a PPV this W/E. Looking at my services, I found that CBS/W had been added to my HD offerings. Way cool! Was it really there? I tried, and sure enough, there it was.

Now the questions is: Why?

Originally, all I had was NBC, and the reason was no Grade B or better signal out here. A few weeks ago, due to a 'blanket' waiver from KRDO, they let me add ABC/W. So, I had 2 of the four networks. I didn't do anything, and now I've got CBS/W.

The only thing that I can think of is the Significantly Viewed channels which has been mandated by the FCC, and D* is working on. Now, I know that KCNC is an SV station for Teller county. And everyone in the Denver DMA gets CBS/W correct?

That is the only thing that makes sense.
....jc

Hello TotallyPrewired,
I too have D* and live in Ft. Collins. Since I can't get OTA channels from Denver, D* gave me CBS/W and FOX/W when I called them. How did you get NBC and ABC/W from them? The only decent OTA I get now with my Silver Sensor is 12-1, 12-2, 12-3, and 31-1. I would like to get Cheyenne OTA but not sure where it is located. TIA

Hello TotallyPrewired,
I too have D* and live in Ft. Collins. Since I can't get OTA channels from Denver, D* gave me CBS/W and FOX/W when I called them. How did you get NBC and ABC/W from them? The only decent OTA I get now with my Silver Sensor is 12-1, 12-2, 12-3, and 31-1. I would like to get Cheyenne OTA but not sure where it is located. TIA
JB(You're not an exBogite are you?):p
I got NBC because I didn't get a 'Grade B' signal at my location(still using analog data), and ABC was because of a blanket waiver by the local affiliate KRDO.

You've got a Fox translator station for KDRV right there in Ft. Collins. You can use something like Antenna Web which is here (http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx) to find it and the other Cheyenne stations.

If you really want a shot at getting the Denver stations, you'll probably need an outdoor antenna.
....jc

Here is my email chain with Mike Bestor. Apparently he is misunderstood. Still waiting for a reply to my last response.


-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Poppy
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:05 PM
To: Mike Bestor
Subject: Eminent Domain Land Grab Proposal On Lookout Mountain

Mr. Bestor,



I am amazed by your comments. The current LCG television towers on Lookout Mountain serve much more than just the city of Golden that you represent. In your suggested move, you would take away free over the air television from the entire front range. You claim that people want to see beautiful mountains and not development. Why, then, don't you focus your energy on removing houses that are appreciated only by the single family inhabiting them rather than television which viewers in the entire metro area enjoy? Certainly more bang for the buck there, right? You should be supporting LCG's proposal, as it lowers the number of towers on Lookout to one – much prettier on the eyes than the current configuration.



Do you honestly think you are speaking for the 1 million + people you would affect? I can tell you that you most certainly do not.



Sincerely,



Christopher Poppy

Littleton, CO

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 9/2/05, Mike Bestor <MBESTOR@ci.golden.co.us> wrote:
Mr. Poppy,



There was an error in the Rocky Mountain News article yesterday. The City of Golden is not seeking to remove the existing towers. We are purchasing open space to prevent further tower and other development down the mountain. You will still have your free TV. There are other locations for more towers if they are needed.



Mike Bestor
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Poppy
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 8:57 AM
To: Mike Bestor
Subject: Re: Eminent Domain Land Grab Proposal On Lookout Mountain


I see, I apologize for the misunderstanding. So, I am right to assume you support the Lake Cedar Group's proposal to remove most of the existing towers and replace them with one tower?

Thanks for the Golden email addresses PAW. I was feeling a bit ornery this morning and sent this off to the folks on your list:

I wish to thank the Golden City Management team:

Thanks for being so astute to interfere with the LCG Tower Proposal II. Obviously their desire to reduce the number of towers, along with RF emissions for residents of Lookout and Golden, does not meet with your approval. Surely you must think 50+ year old technology spread out over 4 towers is better than the latest and greatest technology on one tower. I suspect you might also think 50 year old televisions work better than new state of the art televisions too. Kudo’s for being so bright.

Thanks for threatening your use of Eminent Domain. Yes, you’ll really endear yourselves to the Front Range citizens if you’re successful in your attempt to hijack land used for free OTA television. I’m sure you’ll be selective about this too right? Surely in your collective minds, the blight only exists for FM and television towers….and certainly not for Golden police and fire communications towers (nor for cell phones towers either I suspect).

Thanks for trying to improve the Front Range “blight” by attempting to remove said towers from Lookout. I’m sure you must be thinking that by removing these towers they will come down and will never be rebuilt (anywhere). Or are you thinking that if they are rebuilt they won’t cause blight because there not located on Lookout? I’m really curious as to why these towers are eyesores for the entire Front Range on Lookout but would not be if they were located anywhere else?

Thank you for demonstrating your leadership capabilities. I believe you’ve demonstrated that the collective efforts of the Katrina catastrophe was well run and organized as compared to your leadership abilities.

Thanks for “thinking small” and being concerned about your tax base at the expense of everyone else along the Front Range.

And finally, thanks for making me feel so happy that I did not move into your city.

Sincerely,
xxxx-xxx

PS: You might wish to enact a toll for entrance to Clear Creek Canyon. Think of how much money you could extract from the gambling crowd headed towards Black Hawk and Central City. I’m sure this will help off set the legal bills you’ll incur whilst trying to screw everyone along the Front Range by eliminating our sources of free information and entertainment.

Anyone else experiencing a weak, unstable signal from 4-1 KCNC this morning? I went to tune in to the U.S. Open tennis and was unable to lock in. The other Republic Tower channels are coming in fine.

C-A-R-E Myth #4: You will use Imminent Domain to remove ALL towers on Lookout Mt.
Truth; Did you consider the fact that the City of Golden's Police, Fire, Emergency and Public Works communications all use Lookout Mt. for THEIR towers? You would be crippling your own city by removing all the towers.

Ernie,
Your email addresses all the pertinent issues and concisely gets to the point. Loved it, especially Truth #4. That point alone should get some back-peddling in Golden going.
Tom

What? Did they say they were going to remove all towers? I don't remember hearing that.

sCARE's manifesto is to remove all the towers. And if I'm not mistaken, some of the current television/radio towers host antenna's for Golden's public services. What are they gonna' do, just eliminate the ones that do not?

Knowing sCARE, yes, that's probably what they'd do.

Got a letter back...Mr. and Mrs. Santella,

Thanks for your email and your thoughts. I don't know about your point #1 and am looking into it. On the other issues, though, I think there is some miscommunication about our intent. We aren't looking to remove the existing towers, although if the unneeded ones eventually come down that's great. In any case none of Golden's emergency communications systems will be affected, nor will local television be affected. Our goal is to complete our greenbelt/open space program by purchasing the last remaining parcels along the mountain backdrop. This is to protect those areas from development, including new antennas or new homes. There are other better locations for new towers. I respect your views even if they differ from mine and will certainly consider them - and everyone else's - as this issue continues to unfold.

best,
Jacob Smith
Golden City Council Ward 4 My response...Mr Smith,

Thank you so much for responding to my email. As you know, this is a very emotional topic.
But, you seem to be 180 degrees from what the group C-A-R-E is forcing on everyone. Yet, the City of Golden has joined them in their opposition and litigation.

C-A-R-E wants ALL towers to be removed, thus eliminating local tv for the entire front range (including Ft. Collins down to Parker)
And two, you mentioned "there are better locations for new towers" Could you please elaborate?

I've been to many public meetings and every time another location for towers is brought forth, it is dismissed for many reasons. Eldorado Mt. was proved not acceptable due to interference with the Govt. "Quiet Zone" by Boulder. Squaw Mt. for the 'Shadowing' or no recption issues for residents in the foothills and everyone west of Wadsworth in the shadow of the foothills. And also using C-A-R-E's own words, "No towers near people". Then what about all those families living on Squaw Mt? Don't they deserve the same protection as the residents of our community? I never did understand C-A-R-E's support for that location, other than it just gets it out of their backyard and into someones elses.

Even, out east on the plains has been deemed unacceptable by the FAA, due to the International, local and military airports located out there. There was a very good reason Lookout Mt was picked in the 1930's for radio/tv & civil services antennas.

Lastly and most importantly, If this proposal is denied, the stations will simply wait it out and change out their in-building transmitters to digital (with no external alterations requiring new zoning) and we will be exactly in the same boat as we are now. No reduction at all in the tower farm eyesore, and every station with powerful, old technology, omni-directional antennas beaming signals at the same altitude into many homes including my families. That is what concerns me the most!

Thank you,

Well, this evening I got to enjoy watching football in HD on KMGH for the first time. Yes, my 20 month journey to OTA reception of Denver DTV was successfully concluded last Friday. The second all-day Friday in a row that I spent in my 100+ degree attic fiddling w/ a new Antennas Direct XG91 antenna and checking readings on my birthday present LG LST-4200A HDTV receiver (the 4200 seems just a tad more sensitive to weak signals and considerably better at handling multi-path issues than my Dish 811).

As luck would have it, just when I was ready to throw in the towel, I tried one last position change, in a configuration w/ the antenna's directors wrapped around vertical 2 X 4s in two different places. No way that it should have worked with all the obstructions to the antenna's signal reception path, but darned if it didn't lock KMGH. It is a weak signal, 60 to 62 day and 62 to 64 evenings, but pretty solid. Few video breakups in the evening, just an occasionaly audio hiccup.

I had hoped the high gain, narrow beam, XG91 might do the trick, but I started w/ mountings in the rear of my attic area, where I have room to maneuver. Tried it forward, back, left, right, and w/ various angles. No joy. Better readings on all the channels I already received, but no KMGH.

Last Friday, I juggled the 8-foot XG91 between the trusses to where my Winegard 9018 has been operating. I thought it had found a sweet spot there earlier in summer when I locked channel 46 (before they went full power) for the first time. I correctly assessed that the signal I was getting there was mostly through the roof and not the front of the house, which is in the straight line path of my azimuth to KMGH, and that the 10-inch metal chimney in that area was blocking or deflecting signals when I was further back in the attic. I incorrectly assessed that going further forward in the attic (i.e., toward the KMGH signal) would improve the signal. What finally worked was the XG91's far end director pretty much exactly where the 9018's end director was, pointed at and touching the roof. Plus the XG91 at about a 20 degree upward tilt, just like I had the 9018. I didn't start w/ this configuration for the XG91 because of the obstructions that force a poor setup for the big antenna. But, as they say, YMMV.

Anyway, the wife did enjoy Desperate Housewives in HD last night. She also asked if my HDTV success spelled the end of my discussions about an antenna on the roof. Yes. However, because of the weak signal, I had to abandon my two amplified antennas combined input. With a little tinkering, I got the XG91 to get WB and Fox as well as the stations I'm pointing at. WB is hit and miss w/ my Dish 811 due to multi-path, but no problem for the 4200. Unfortunately, this means I no longer have an analog feed to the 3 NTSC tuners in my system. So, sometime soon, I'll need to go pull another coax to run the Lookout Mt. analog signals from my inherited 70" UHF/VHF combo to those NTSC tuners. Another half day in the attic, but first I'm going up in the hills for 3 days this week!

Congratulations CEB II. What is this KMGH thingy you speak of??

:D

Hope you got to see the FSU/Miami game tonight in HD. It was a spectacular view of what turned out to be a great game. Maybe CU will have a shot in a few weeks at Miami if it comes down to a field goal contest. Go Buffs!

Ernie--terrific job with the email letters to Golden. Whether they want to admit it or not your letters carry some weight since you live in the area. Can't imagine they would be too impressed by a letter from someone in Boulder county. Keep up the good work.

Just got back from Vail for the long weekend and caught up on all of the posts. Ernie - great job. I did have one thought. What if LCGII incorporated their land as a "new" city? Could they bring in some people to inhabit this city in the houses they bought up/leased, set up a mayor/city council with these "citizens", and by-pass the Jeffco Commissioners and sCARE? That would seem to also eliminate any eminent domain issues from Golden.

Just got back from Vail for the long weekend and caught up on all of the posts. Ernie - great job. I did have one thought. What if LCGII incorporated their land as a "new" city? Could they bring in some people to inhabit this city in the houses they bought up/leased, set up a mayor/city council with these "citizens", and by-pass the Jeffco Commissioners and sCARE? That would seem to also eliminate any eminent domain issues from Golden.UHHH!!! Beat them at their own game ;) I like it. :D I don't know the incorporation process but it seems rather drawn out. Didn't it take Centinnal a couple of years? Then you have to supply your own police and fire protection. HMMM!!! One Barney Fife and one hose. Maybe!

An article in Sundays Denver Post about the FSN Rocky Mtn. vs. Altitude stated that all Avalanche and Nuggets games will be available in HD from Altitude.

"Altitude increased its staff from about 85 employees last year to 100 to prepare for the return of the Avs. This year, the network will have a weekly Avs show called "Avalanche Alert." Also, all Nuggets and Avs games will be available in high-definition TV."

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_3001585

I wonder if Altitude is having any discussions with D* about putting some Avs games on the "special" channels in th 90's like they do for other regional sports teams. It will probably be a while before Altitude-HD is offered as its own channel on D* due to bandwidth limitations. I would hope that D* would be more willing to do this because Altitude is not owned by a cable company.

I looked for a link on Altitude's website to contact them and ask about their HD plans for D* or OTA (wouldn't that be nice), but couldn't find one.

An article in Sundays Denver Post about the FSN Rocky Mtn. vs. Altitude stated that all Avalanche and Nuggets games will be available in HD from Altitude.

"Altitude increased its staff from about 85 employees last year to 100 to prepare for the return of the Avs. This year, the network will have a weekly Avs show called "Avalanche Alert." Also, all Nuggets and Avs games will be available in high-definition TV."

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_3001585

I wonder if Altitude is having any discussions with D* about putting some Avs games on the "special" channels in th 90's like they do for other regional sports teams. It will probably be a while before Altitude-HD is offered as its own channel on D* due to bandwidth limitations. I would hope that D* would be more willing to do this because Altitude is not owned by a cable company.

I looked for a link on Altitude's website to contact them and ask about their HD plans for D* or OTA (wouldn't that be nice), but couldn't find one.


I would suggest a MAJOR letter writing campaign to both Altitude and D* although I would be willing to bet you won't see a lot of the HD games until D* has implemented their MPEG4 and is televising Denver locals early next year. Just my own $0.02, YMMV.

I would suggest a MAJOR letter writing campaign to both Altitude and D* although I would be willing to bet you won't see a lot of the HD games until D* has implemented their MPEG4 and is televising Denver locals early next year. Just my own $0.02, YMMV.
I believe jm to be correct. Right now I'm waiting to see if we get ESPN2 HD on Thursday(as promised). And, I'm sure that D* has a lot of other channels that they like to bring to HD before Altitude. :(
....jc

There was an error in the Rocky Mountain News article yesterday. The City of Golden is not seeking to remove the existing towers. We are purchasing open space to prevent further tower and other development down the mountain. You will still have your free TV. There are other locations for more towers if they are needed.

I keep looking at RMN article and just don't know what to read into it.

1. Are they not on the same page as CARE. We know CARE wants the towers removed.
2. Will they allow the necessary DTV changes to the existing towers if they get the open space.
3. Is there a deal in the works. Land for new tower.
4. They are not seeking to remove the existing towers Ok fine. Why would they turn down an offer where there is 3 less towers on the mountain.

I don't understand either Leonard. Got another reply (sort of) today.


On 9/6/05, Mike Bestor <MBESTOR@ci.golden.co.us> wrote:
No.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chris Poppy
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 8:54 AM
To: Mike Bestor
Subject: Re: Eminent Domain Land Grab Proposal On Lookout Mountain

Well, I'm afraid I am still confused then. It certainly seems to me that reducing the number of existing towers on Lookout Mountain would be inline with your goal of improving aesthetics of the mountain. Certainly you must understand that if the proposed tower doesn't pass, the existing towers will stay in place and be switched over to digital use. Who wins then? Not the people of Golden looking for property value appreciation.

The bottom line is, that land belongs to Jefferson County, not Golden. Let Jefferson County, the County my taxes go to, determine how to use it.

On 9/6/05, Mike Bestor <MBESTOR@ci.golden.co.us> wrote:
No.



Absolutely farging brilliant he is... :rolleyes:

One could only hope that if Golden does try this stunt, it will finally convince the local radio and television stations that they need to get off their collective butts and start running "The city of Golden wants to take away your free radio and television broadcasts" ads.

Remember, this isn't just DTV transmitters, they want all the towers gone, including all exisiting analog television and FM radio transmitters and Ham repeaters on Lookout. I'd bet there are a few public safety transmitters up there as well.

I've printed up 1000 of these. I 'll send a few to the Golden City Council. ;)
http://www.santellaproductions.com/t2.gif

I've printed up 1000 of these. I 'll send a few to the Golden City Council. ;)
I like 'em!

Ernie, you're priceless!!

Ernie, you're priceless!!

But the shirts aren't, I'm sure :)

Ernie, what is the price?

The T-shirts are only spec at the moment, but they can be created if needed!

If you ever do create a few of them, make sure you put your Denver DTV URL somewhere on it, or people won't know what the heck is going on!

I like 'em Ernie, very nice!

[QUOTE=santellavision]I've printed up 1000 of these. I 'll send a few to the Golden City Council. ;)

Ernie

Those are great. Van Pelt should use you to design the shirts he wears :)

Reggie

Even though cameras were not allowed, I was able to snap this photo of a (S)Care member testifying before the Board at the last meeting:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/images/(S)Care.jpg

I am running a indoor antenna, 2, 31, and 12 come in fine but I am having to keep re updating to try and lock 4 7 and 9 ... I point the antenna in diff. directions and nothing is working to get these channels I live in littleton and am hoping to have hdtv 7 for tonights raiders pats game.. please help!

Eric

eze,

It's ain't so eze is it! (I had to do it) ;)

First porblem is your using an indoor antenna, not a good start. Second, receiving OTA DTV in Denver is a game of inches. Try every possible position for that antenna before giving up. Sometimes, you receiver might take more than 10 sec to lock, so, it's also a game of patience.

Gook Luck and welcome!

Thanks, Probably need to spend more time fondling with the system! It is very tedious! Thanks for quick reply.

Eric

I am running a indoor antenna, 2, 31, and 12 come in fine but I am having to keep re updating to try and lock 4 7 and 9 ... I point the antenna in diff. directions and nothing is working to get these channels I live in littleton and am hoping to have hdtv 7 for tonights raiders pats game.. please help!
Eric,
Jump in your car and go out and get a bigger antenna. Try a CM 4228, don't know where you can get one tonight though.

You may be able to get it to work indoors, but ultimately, in this Low Power Town(LPT I like it!), an indoor antenna has a lot of limitations.
....jc

Being south in Littleton, you have a good shot at getting everything but ABC. Now, are you aware that CBS/PBS/NBC are all transmitting from Republic Plaza downtown Denver, not Lookout Mt.?

I really think you have about a 5% chance of getting ABC (also located near downtown) with an indoor antenna.

darn, thats ok... I bought a 24 dollar tv/fm indoor antenna from radio shack has a circle deal and the two antennas to the side of it, there is also a button where you can boast the signal to higher capabilities on the back of the antenna. Ive been playing around for about 5 hours now, got 31, 2 and public television. I did not know it would be this difficult to get signals and what not, I may just take the whole thing back.... although My main goal was broncos in HD! I think they play on channel 4.

Repeat after me: I must put a very large antenna on my roof...I must put a very large antenna on my roof... :)

Welcome eze232, and good luck! Give the Radio Shack UHF only Yagi antenna a shot - that's what I use. Or, you could try the Channelmaster 3021 4 bay bowtie antenna - some local Ace Hardware stores have those.

Today I received a call from a dude at FOX. Not an affiliate, the network. Why he called, I don't really know. I called KDVR(which isn't even in my DMA) and I recently asked for an HD waiver from the local(KXRM). I did talk with a dude from KXRM, and he said that they didn't grant waivers.

He asked what I needed, and I explained that I can't receive FOX HD(I'm still working on it, but it's not easy at my location). I also explained that football season is starting to happen!

He asked for my location info, and he'd check on it in a day or two. He said that they had software which could fairly accurately predict whether I could get a FOX HD signal at my location. I got the feeling that if his software indicated that I could get their signal(from any affiliate), and I can't, that they'd come out and check. He also said, that he'd be able to get me a waiver for DNS FOX West if it turned out that I needed it.

What's refreshing is that there are some networks that care if you can watch their HD programs. I list these as CBS & Fox. I know for sure that ABC could give a damn!
....jc

Leonard,
Is the 27th JeffCo hearing open the public?

Let me be the first to congratulate our local ABC affiliate for airing a repeat newscast, and Wheel of Fortune, rather than The Rolling Stones and the NFL pre-game party.

BRILLIANT DECISION!

Are all KMGH decisions (DTV Transmitter and Programming) done by a 65 year old woman?

I noticed that too, why'd they do that?

Let me be the first to congratulate our local ABC affiliate for airing a repeat newscast, and Wheel of Fortune, rather than The Rolling Stones and the NFL pre-game party.

BRILLIANT DECISION!

Are all KMGH decisions (DTV Transmitter and Programming) done by a 65 year old woman?

If you haven't already noticed, all KMGH decisions are "all about the money"! I'm convinced that is why they have buddy'd-up w/ Comcast and will do nothing to improve their OTA capabilities. I'd love for there to be a serious legal investigation into how much Comcast is paying KMGH for their rights to KMGH DTV broadcasts and do the terms of their agreement state or imply that KMGH will not enhance its OTA transmission capability during the term of the agreement. That of course would violate Federal law, but if nobody complains, no harm, no foul.

There was an item in the paper last weekend about a former KMGH news photographer. Took a buy-out after over 40 years and is driving shuttle buses for income now. He commented about how KMGH isn't like it used to be. Now it is all about the money.

I've printed up 1000 of these. I 'll send a few to the Golden City Council. ;)
http://www.santellaproductions.com/t2.gif

I love them. I'll buy one as soon as you make them available.

If you haven't already noticed, all KMGH decisions are "all about the money"! I'm convinced that is why they have buddy'd-up w/ Comcast and will do nothing to improve their OTA capabilities. I'd love for there to be a serious legal investigation into how much Comcast is paying KMGH for their rights to KMGH DTV broadcasts and do the terms of their agreement state or imply that KMGH will not enhance its OTA transmission capability during the term of the agreement. That of course would violate Federal law, but if nobody complains, no harm, no foul.

There was an item in the paper last weekend about a former KMGH news photographer. Took a buy-out after over 40 years and is driving shuttle buses for income now. He commented about how KMGH isn't like it used to be. Now it is all about the money.


At least Dave Minshall did something about it & won when he was fired/contract not renewed.

http://www.kscourts.org/ca10/cases/2003/03/01-1576.htm

Well, I finally managed to get a signal last night for channel 17. I just got a new LG LST-4200a receiver and I thought I would see what it could do. I let it scan for available channels, and then punched in 17. Voila, a snowy picture came into view. It wasn't KMGH, though - it was analog for some obscure religious channel I'd never heard of.

So today I went on the web and did a search at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp

Sure enough, there is a low-power station K17CF broacasting on channel 17 from Boulder. KMGH is another low-power station broadcasting from Denver. No matter what kind of antenna I might get, guess which one is going to predominate the signal up here? Closest guy with a coathanger wins.

I'm not against LP broadcasting, but this does make me wonder how the FCC goes about establishing separation requirements.

I'm not against LP broadcasting, but this does make me wonder how the FCC goes about establishing separation requirements.Do you think the FCC has done anything that makes sense?

No matter what kind of antenna I might get, guess which one is going to predominate the signal up here? Closest guy with a coathanger wins.
I dunno. I assume that you are SE of the transmitter? If you were West of the transmitter, and had a very directional antenna.... Geez, what was I thinking? KMGH 1.9kw?

I guess I left reality for a minute there. :eek:

Do you guys find it easy to get kusa-9 and kcnc-4 through ota?

A few months ago, KMGH broadcast their 24/7 weather channel on 7.2 - just for one weekend - seems like it was Memorial Day weekend. After they dropped it off OTA, I emailed KMGH. The response I received was that they "received permission from Comcast" to broadcast the 24/7 weather channel just for that particular weekend and that, otherwise, they have an exclusive carriage contract with Comcast for the 24/7 weather service. When I replied to the email with questions about serving the public, using their public license for private, corporate gain, etc., I naturally never heard from them again.

Regarding conflicts with local LP analogs, I used to receive KLWY, analog 27 Fox from Cheyenne, with rabbit ears. It was a little snowy, but very watchable. Around the first of the year, some Spanish LP signed on in Denver on analog 27, wiping out my KLWY reception. I really didn't care because I can also receive KDVR and KFCT and never really watched KLWY anyway. But being curious, I emailed the FCC. The reply I received was that the FCC does extensive field tests before allowing LP's on the air to ensure reception conflicts did not occur. They also told me to contact KLWY because it was up to KLWY to complain about the reception conflict, not those of us who watch the stations. I did not pursue this issue.

Regarding conflicts with local LP analogs, I used to receive KLWY, analog 27 Fox from Cheyenne, with rabbit ears. It was a little snowy, but very watchable. Around the first of the year, some Spanish LP signed on in Denver on analog 27, wiping out my KLWY reception. I really didn't care because I can also receive KDVR and KFCT and never really watched KLWY anyway. But being curious, I emailed the FCC. The reply I received was that the FCC does extensive field tests before allowing LP's on the air to ensure reception conflicts did not occur. They also told me to contact KLWY because it was up to KLWY to complain about the reception conflict, not those of us who watch the stations. I did not pursue this issue.

Along this line, did anyone notice the MTV2 analog station that popped up on channel 30 (effectively eliminating any Cheyenne channel 30 DTV signal) a few weeks ago? That MTV2 station had been on analog channel 55 previously. Almost makes me think it is a pirate station. But, if the Cheyenne station doesn't complain they get to broadcast illegally?

Now that I have an LG LST-4200A STB, I use its on-air program guide at times. Why is it that Channels 4, 6, and 9 don't see fit to broadcast programming information like all the other local DTV channels do? Even little old Channel 53 in Castle Rock!

Leonard,
Is the 27th JeffCo hearing open the public?
Ernie. Yes I am sure it is. There was nothing to indicate it wasn't.

Here is what is to take place.
[Start]
The continuation of the hearing, scheduled for September 27, will allow for rebuttal and summary by the applicant and county staff as well as deliberation and decision by the BCC.
[End]

We should get the T-shirts then! We can wear them under our shirts and when they vote NO, rip 'em open!

I knew about MTV on analog 55, didn't notice another one on 30. Haven't watched KGWN lately. I'll check it out tonight.

Do you guys find it easy to get kusa-9 and kcnc-4 through ota?Easiness is inversely proportional to distance from Denver.

KWGN-2 and KDVR-31 are easy for most people in the Denver metro area and doable across the northern Front Range (Ft. Collins to Castle Rock)

KUSA-9 and KCNC-4 and KRMA-6 are easy within Denver proper and doable within across the Denver metro area (Boulder to Highlands Ranch)

KMGH-7 is easy for no one but generally doable in the southern part of the Denver metro area (I-70 to Highlands Ranch)

KBDI-12 is generally doable across the metro area east of Wadsworth.

Now that I have an LG LST-4200A STB, I use its on-air program guide at times. Why is it that Channels 4, 6, and 9 don't see fit to broadcast programming information like all the other local DTV channels do? Even little old Channel 53 in Castle Rock!I just joined the 4200a club also, and was amazed at how fast the program guide is relative to my old Samsung SIR-T151. Plus I now see that some shows come with a little plot blurb, just like you would see in TV Guide.

Channels 2,31, and 53 seem to have the best/most complete guide information. Channel 6 is the worst, with almost nothing. Channel 14 gives me a guide, but no picture!

Along this line, did anyone notice the MTV2 analog station that popped up on channel 30 (effectively eliminating any Cheyenne channel 30 DTV signal) a few weeks ago? That MTV2 station had been on analog channel 55 previously. Almost makes me think it is a pirate station. But, if the Cheyenne station doesn't complain they get to broadcast illegally?
CEB, KGWN(5) HD is coming in fine down here. It's been one of my most reliable stations, and still is.
....jc

That MTV channel is a pirate station. Someone has set up a DirecTV receiver and a fairly high powered transmitter somewhere.

I assume they switched frequencies because someone was on to them. I can’t believe it’s been on the air for as long as it has, 4 years so far (it may have been longer, but that's when I discovered it), and no one has noticed.

http://www.panelcrafters.net/test_tenna.jpg

'Mama' is on the left and 'Junior' is on the right. 'Junior' is my current testing platform. On the top is a CM 4228 and on the bottom is an AD 91XG. They are using a CM 7775 preamp. So far, during testing, they are both pretty close. It seems that the CM 4428 is a little better with multipath, and the 91XG a little better with directivity issues. No clear winner. Neither of these antennas, at this location, and mounted on 'Mama' could reliably receive KDVR.

Just for grins, I connected them together(stacked), to see what would happen. Stacked antennas should be identical. I feared for the worst. Instead, nothing really changed. No better, no worse. Hmmm.

Last night I used the 91XG to watch the Pats/Oakland game on KMGH(7.*) with no problems. Note that the 91XG is only about 3' off the ground. Also, it's receiving KGWN(5.*), KRMA(6.1) & KBDI(12.*). KCNC(4.1) is viewable 'once-in-a-while'.

KUSA(9.*) is always showing a good strength of signal, but for some reason it's getting killed with multipath, and never viewable.

Lookout Mtn. stations KDVR(31.1) and KWGN(2.1) are bigtime problems at this location. KDVR shows good signal strength, but again, it's the multipath that's the killer. KWGN, usually shows much less signal strength, and is never viewable. What's funny is that the radiation pattern for KWGN is much more favorable, at this location, than it is for KDVR. Hmmm.

The good news, if there is any is that D* now has ESPN2 in HD on the air. I'm watching the Pitt/Ohio game as I write. I don't know how many of their college football games will actually be in HD, but anything is an addition to what we had before! :p
....jc

Channel 30 is a Low Power Station licensed to Denver under FCC call sign KLPT-LP. The license is showing the transmitter at west of Broomfield.
This map will show the site:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX1079683.html
There is an application on file to relocate the transmitter:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX1019199.html

Just checked reception. I do receive analog LP30, even with rabbit ears, but it is not interferring with DT30 KGWN. I don't receive the analog LP17. I used to receive analog LP55 with the MTV broadcast but I'm not receiving it now. Also, during this check, I am receiving analog KDEV LP39 with a logo in the right hand corner of the screen showing RTV, like it's a network. The call sign at 8:30 PM was KDEV LP39 Denver and KDEV DT11, Cheyenne. They apparently show old shows like KWHD. Gomer Pyle is on right now.

TPW - I still don't understand how you receive KGWN, at less than 100 kW, and can't get Fox on DT21 with 1 mW and about 30 miles closer to you. I receive DT21 much stronger than KGWN. In fact, I usually lose KGWN during the day. Must be the digital gods aren't with you.

Hmm, both 55 and 30 are owned by Syncom. But I find it hard to believe a legitimate station would be using a standard DirecTV (and a really old one, judging from its GUI) receiver as their source. I mean if the power goes out over there, it will go to channel 100 and I’ve watched them change it back to MTV. The whole thing seems very iffy.

Ehh, but what do I care? MTV is a horrible station.

TPW - I still don't understand how you receive KGWN, at less than 100 kW, and can't get Fox on DT21 with 1 mW and about 30 miles closer to you. I receive DT21 much stronger than KGWN. In fact, I usually lose KGWN during the day. Must be the digital gods aren't with you.
MHM,
I guess it depends on how ya look at it. 1st of all I've got a 'hill' blocking Lookout Mtn. Toward Denver & Cheyenne it's a clear shot for at least 30 miles. Now why don't I get KFCT? Who knows. I seem to have plenty of signal strength, it's just that the multipath is greater.

Now I get KMGH easily, and most people don't. So, the 'Gods' that I've got apparently like to watch ABC more than FOX! They'll tollerate CBS, and they dislike WB2. You just can't win in this LPT(Low Power Town).
....jc

Has anyone tried "moving" to the mountains? Plenty of rental property to chosoe from. Will the local statsions give waivers for HD channels in you live in Summit or Eagle counties?

Doesn't work. I moved to Winter Park but I still only can get the CBS and Fox National HD stations onDirecTv.

While watching the Broncos stink it up in Miami earlier, I noticed that the center channel of audio seems rather low relative to the rest of the 5.1 audio mix. I adjusted the level of my center channel up to compensate, but this only seems to sound incorrect during football on CBS, as 5.1 audio on both KMGH and KDVR during football sound fine with my 'usual' setting.

Has anyone else noticed this, and moreover if you have, is this a KCNC issue or a CBS issue?

By the way, why is the second game currently on KDVR (Dallas vs. San Diego) in 'stunning' SD? I thought all FOX NFL was HD?

Curious and Confused...

Has anyone tried "moving" to the mountains? Plenty of rental property to chosoe from. Will the local statsions give waivers for HD channels in you live in Summit or Eagle counties?


Not in Summit or Eagle counties, but I am told there are still white areas where such a move would result in your getting the west coast stations.

Do you guys find it easy to get kusa-9 and kcnc-4 through ota?


I get them all at C470 and Bowles via the Radio Shack outdoor UHF antenna. ABC is the hardest, but I can usually watch MNF with only a few glitches. 4 and 9 are rock solid though.

UHForever,

I noticed the same sound issue regarding low volume on the center channel. It usually occurred after a commercial break and seemed to get better after a minute or two. I thought it was probably a network issue but who knows?

I don't know if anyone else has this "problem", but it involves KDVR and KFCT both remapping to 31.1.

On my Dish 811, I can lock either KDVR on DT32 or KFCT on DT21, but not both at the same time because they both remap to 31.1. So if my antenna is pointed towards downtown Denver and my lock is on DT32, I must either rotate my antenna towards Lookout Mt. or re-input DT21 to receive Fox. Over the weekend, I purchased an Accurian receiver from RS for $90. (If anyone needs a receiver, this is a great deal - it even shows true signal strength and SNR.) The Accurian will lock both DT 32 and DT21. They show up as duplicate 31.1's. The problem is that the Accurian can't decode the audio on either of the two 31.1 channels, probably, I'm assuming, because of the two separate signals both remapping to 31.1.

It seems to me that KDVR is merely porting their signal over to KFCT, including the PSIP information that only applies to KDVR - the remapping to 31.1. I thought that as of February each station had to properly identify themselves with correct PSIP information. If that is true, KFCT should be remapping to 22.1, not 31.1. Does anyone know if this is correct?

It seems logical to me that if KFCT would remap to 22.1, my "problems" would be resolved. I have emailed KDVR twice and have received no response. I'd like to get some opinions before I correspond with the FCC. Thanks.

Good news here folks!! I was playing around with my antena the other day and scanned for channels... picked up 7-1 and 7-2.... now I just need to find out how to get picture and sound with kmgh and I should be in luck!

If that is true, KFCT should be remapping to 22.1, not 31.1. Does anyone know if this is correct?

It seems logical to me that if KFCT would remap to 22.1, my "problems" would be resolved. I have emailed KDVR twice and have received no response. I'd like to get some opinions before I correspond with the FCC. Thanks.
KFCT is an interesting situation. They applied for a final channel assignment as channel 22. That request was denied. Their second request is to be channel 21.

Their PSIP data is also interesting. They are currently broadcasting on channel 21 and remapping to 31.1. This is where it gets tricky. How do receivers interpret the remapping info? I would assume that each remapped channel carries it's own exact frequency.

Study Time!

Yup. it looks line KDVR has messed up. If they are just retransmitting their digital 'stream' over at KFCT, they are screwing up bigtime. There is something called the VCT. Virtual Channel Table. It's required on all digital data streams. Rebroadcasting the same 'stream' the KDVR is using, is going to give you some of the problems that you are seeing. To rebroadcast a digital 'stream', the VCT needs to be changed. So, this complicates things for the broadcaster, they can't just do things as they have before. They need to take the original stream, and at least change the VCT, before rebroadcasting it.

Now, they must be changing some of the VCT, otherwise 31.1 would always be pointing to UHF channel 32, and you would never be able to view KFCT. It sounds like they just need to get rid of 31.1 for KFCT and use something else.

KDVR could use channel 31.1 = UHF channel 32, and 31.2 = UHF channel 21. Then you wouldn't have the problem.

I guess your best bet is to contact KDVR and tell them about the problem(They should already know!!!!).

More info can be found here. (http://www.psip.org/documents/PSIP_guide.pdf)

PSIP is fairly complicated, and they may still be working on the standards.

Please also remember that due to Katrina, we have a MNF Double Header starting at 5:30pm MDT tonight!

....jc

Good news here folks!! I was playing around with my antena the other day and scanned for channels... picked up 7-1 and 7-2.... now I just need to find out how to get picture and sound with kmgh and I should be in luck!
Good luck, but you may be in for a struggle. For instance, almost every scan that I do, picks up UHF 16(KUSA), however, I've never been able to view it.

Using a borrowed receiver, I've discovered that I receive a signal from every major Denver DTV station. However, due to multipath, I can only view about 1/2 of them.
....jc

double header is next week.

Please also remember that due to Katrina, we have a MNF Double Header starting at 5:30pm MDT tonight!

That's NEXT Monday Night.

*edit*
oops, didn't see your response, AF.

double header is next week.
Sorry about that! I didn't check the date! :eek:

I am using a Terk indoor amplified antenna purchased at the world-reknowned Circuit City on Wadsworth and Belleview. It is sitting about the same level as my TV, maybe a few inches higher, and the amplification gain is all of the way up. I live in Lakewood at around Jewell and Garrison (please call before you visit). I can get 2.1, 4.1, 6.1 (a bit glitchy sometimes), 9.1/2, 12.1/2/3, 31.1 and I think a digital religious station or two.

Do you think an outdoor antenna from Radio Shack would get me some channel 7 KMGH digital lovin'? Speaking of Radio Shack I am disappointed that they have stopped selling their awesome analog SPL meters in favor of the lame digital ones.

I would venture to say 'it all depends'...

Depends on what's between you and the KMGH coat hanger.

I'm in Bear Valley, and can get KMGH (spotty) in the winter months. As soon as the trees leaf out, I'm toast.

Certainly worth a shot, though.

BTW, the Rat Shack on west Colfax (across from Lakewood Ford) had an analog meter last week. Had my hands on it.

The digital is fine, though. The digital display has enough buffer to give good average readings.

Just my 2¢, which is worth less and less as each day passes.

Do you think an outdoor antenna from Radio Shack would get me some channel 7 KMGH digital lovin'? Speaking of Radio Shack I am disappointed that they have stopped selling their awesome analog SPL meters in favor of the lame digital ones.

I'm at C470 and Bowles, which is a lot further from downtown than you are. I get KMGH pretty well with the RS antenna mounted on my roof. However, I can see downtown from my roof, which probably helps. I'm even shooting through my maple tree in full leaf, once the leaves go it gets a little better.

It probably all depends on how good of a view you have of downtown from your roof :)

TPW,

Thanks for the information on KDVR/KFCT and the link. I'll try to contact KDVR and see if I have any luck.

It probably all depends on how good of a view you have of downtown from your roof :)
Hmmm... I hope the neighbors won't mind me building a 50 foot high tower. Do you think that will pose any problems running coax that far? :)

Good news here folks!! I was playing around with my antena the other day and scanned for channels... picked up 7-1 and 7-2.... now I just need to find out how to get picture and sound with kmgh and I should be in luck!

:) :) :) :) that's some good humor!

Hmmm... I hope the neighbors won't mind me building a 50 foot high tower.50' ain't gonna' do it. You need one of these. I think Jetlag still has his for sale!
http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/tower1.jpg

Actually this is the one I am using:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/images/Antennas.jpg

Out here in the sticks, we've got to use what we've got...
http://www.panelcrafters.net/mtn_towers.jpg
Badger Mtn. - Wilkerson Pass

I dont think the neighbors would be mad if I had a 50 ft tower on my house so I could get 4 7 and 9 !!

The latest City & Mountain Views Rag, just came out. Lots of propaganda on the LCGII tower hearings. SOS. She pretty much calls everyone from LCG a lier.

Well, speaking of liers... Of course there's no mention of sCARE back in August '04 when they got caught lying at the final JeffCo hearing. Remember when they were spouting all kinds of statistics of incredible RF increases that LCGII proposal would cause. And then, the independent experts exposed that C-A-R-E was quoting incorrect graphs by 'accidently' moving decimal places in their stats! Pretty easy to go from an increase of 100% to a decrease of 10%, just by 'accidently' moving a decimal point the wrong way in your calculation!

And when they've done it over and over, innocent citizens were 'accidently' misled.

I had a math teacher in school that always said... "Graphs don't lie, but liers graph!"

The latest City & Mountain Views Rag, just came out. Lots of propaganda on the LCGII tower hearings. SOS. She pretty much calls everyone from LCG a lier.


Here is an online Colorado City&Mountain Views (http://www.citymtnviews.com/AT_hearing083005.php4) article.
There is also a of link of interest at the bottom of the article.

More crap from scarecrows who proliferate crap, but come Sept 27th they will win.
Reality does not matter...perception does.

Form letter from the Golden City Council (clearly they don't get it):


Thank you for your comments regarding the City of Golden’s recent activity on the Mountain Backdrop Preservation Program. As you know, the City Council has voted unanimously to move forward with efforts to purchase about 160-acres of land on Lookout Mountain that is in danger of development.



This land has been planned for as Open Space by both the City of Golden and Jefferson County since the early ‘90s. This property is particularly attractive in part because it sits in between two other large areas of already designated Conservation Open Space. Developing it would forever mar the gorgeous mountain backdrop that surrounds the Golden valley.



We believe it is our responsibility to preserve the backdrop for the quality of life of current citizens and future generations of Goldenites, as well as visitors to the Rocky Mountain foothills, even if it means standing up to powerful media corporations.



Lake Cedar Group (LCG) does own about 60- of the 160-acres the City of Golden wishes to purchase on Lookout Mountain. LCG and has been embroiled in a controversial rezoning case being heard by the Board of Jefferson County Commissioners. As a large media consortium, LCG wants to build a supertower on the land – a tower we believe has many negative consequences, including danger to our citizens. LCG has opportunities to build its proposed supertower on other sites that would have less impact on nearby residents and would service metro area customers just as well. Additionally, our move to purchase this property would not impact the operation of the towers Lake Cedar Group currently owns on other parts of the mountain.

The City of Golden has entered into fair, arms-length negotiations with LCG. We intend to have the land valued by a professional appraiser and will pay fair market value for it.



We appreciate hearing your concerns on this matter and will take them under consideration. Golden citizens are passionate about preserving Open Space both in and around Golden, and we have received much local support on this matter. We hope you will continue to visit Golden and reconsider joining our effort to protect this beautiful undeveloped land in order to maintain it as Open Space for future generations to enjoy.



Sincerely,

Golden City Council

:rolleyes:

I got one of those form letters too. They've been totally 'brainwashed'.

Funny that they are speaking on behalf of you in the letter they sent you...

On July 21, 2005 the FCC served notice to LCG members KMGH (channel 7) and KUSA (channel 9) that they would not be allowed to use their old channels 7 & 9 for digital TV transmission. Channel 4 had already selected channel 35 as its permanent DTV channel, so all of the LCG Lookout Mountain towers are unusable for LCG DTV broadcast because the existing antennas are tuned to the wrong channels for DTV. LCG cannot just use the existing antennas for digital TV broadcast as Mr. Rockford told the Board of County Commissioner.
So, why is this significant? Notice that he said 'Towers', when the only problem is the antennas. Many towers have multiple antennas. This is very misleading, as the antennas could be 'swapped out', and no one would even notice. Why didn't LGC dispute this statement? I suppose the 'Land Use' specified the exact frequencies that would be transmitted from the towers?
....jc

YEAH! I got that same letter! :D Funny it talks about not developing that 60 acres. Aren't there ALREADY houses on part of it? Doesn't LCG OWN or lease those houses because of the "whiplash" from the snapping guy wires? Does Golden REALLY think that LCG will build MORE houses on that 60 arces that could be subject to the guy wire "whiplash"? Brainwashed? More like Brain DEAD!

Ernie: Hurry up and print those T-shirts!

So, why is this significant? Notice that he said 'Towers', when the only problem is the antennas. Many towers have multiple antennas. This is very misleading, as the antennas could be 'swapped out', and no one would even notice. Why didn't LGC dispute this statement? I suppose the 'Land Use' specified the exact frequencies that would be transmitted from the towers?
....jc
LCG's rebuttal in on the Sept 27th schedule.

I don't understand why Fox out of Ft. Collins (21), KUSA, and KMGH are being denied the use of their old channels. I THOUGHT the way it was supposed to work is the stations elect which allocation they wanted to use after the transition (old channel or new channel). Now it sounds like what the FCC meant (or even maybe said) is that the channels can REQUEST either allocation, but they DON'T get to choose. Fortunately it's not the case for these guys, but hypothetically, if I was on (say) channel 7 and got moved to some much higher freq. (like 35), even after requesting to stay, I'd be a little upset. It's got to be harder to turn a profit when you are paying that much more for electricity and cooling. Oh well, it's not really my problem anyway.

What *is* our "problem" is that it is becoming less likely that either the LCG II tower will be built, or that the existing towers will be able to be modified with the new antennas (zoning). If that is the case, we lose, sCARE wins.

I see the denial as a good thing. The 4 LCG stations are going to share a common tower and having their channels being 16, 17, 21, and 34 makes more sense than 7,9, 21, and 34. I think the FCC has put a bit of pressure on these stations to work towards getting LCGII approved. If they allowed KMGH and KUSA to remain on their old frequency they'd have less motivation to get LCGII approved since it would be financially better for those stations to let LCGII die and then re-purpose their old towers and antennas.

For KMGH and KUSA, the reason for the initial FCC denial, per what the FCC posted on their web site, was that KMGH had an interference issue with DT channel 8 in the Springs and KUSA had an interference issue with DT channels 8 & 10 in the Springs. Apparently, on the VHF high band, the potential for adjacent channel interference is greater that it is on UHF. Both KMGH and KUSA have negotiated agreements with the Springs stations regarding the interference, probably by agreeing to reduce their signal strength to the south although the details are not posted on the FCC site. Both KMGH and KUSA have filed subsequent actions after the initial denial with the FCC to go to channels 7 & 9 after analog shutoff, noting the negotiated agreements with the Springs stations. So I look for channels 7 & 9 to be approved by the FCC to use their current analog channels after analog shutoff.

Regarding KFCT in Ft. Collins, they originally elected to go back to their analog channel 22 during the first round channel election process. However, KXRM in the Springs elected to stay on their digital assigned channel 22 and give up their analog channel 21 after analog cutoff. So this probably also created an interference problem since both KFCT and KXRM would be on channel 22. Why KXRM got to keep their first round election of channel 22 in favor of KFCT's election to stay on channel 22 is not disclosed on the FCC web site. However, my guess is that since KXRM was fully licensed first as a digital station, they received preference. In fact, I don't believe KFCT is fully licensed yet although they appear to be operating at full power.

As a result of all of this, it appears that Denver will have 4 VHF stations after analog cutoff - KRMA-6, KMGH-7, KUSA-9, and KDBI-13.

FAs a result of all of this, it appears that Denver will have 4 VHF stations after analog cutoff - KRMA-6, KMGH-7, KUSA-9, and KDBI-13.I just hope they maintain reasonable power levels after the switchover. Although supposedly a UHF antenna, my CM4228 gets an excelllent reception on KMGH and KUSA analog, and decent reception on KRMA and KBDI analog.

I'm not getting a good vibe for the hearing... So, the shirts are now available at the Denver DTV store.

http://www.cafepress.com/denverdtv

What ever channel they decide on, I'm ready. I've got a combo in the attic pointed at LOM to get the local analog broadcasts.

That issue about interference with 7 and 9 is interesting. Maybe that is part of the reason I can never get 7 and 9 analog w/o ghosts, while I get 2, 4, 6, and 12 ghost-free. Hmmm!

If anybody's interested. There is a professional event coming up called Cinefest, Oct 7-8th. Sony will be here demonstrating their awesome Qualia PJ.

Cinefest Link (http://www.fvesco.com/cinefest.htm)

If anybody's interested. There is a professional event coming up called Cinefest, Oct 7-8th. Sony will be here demonstrating their awesome Qualia PJ.

Cinefest Link (http://www.fvesco.com/cinefest.htm)Thanks for the heads up Ernie. Plus there's free drinks 1 - 3 on Saturday. ;) HMM!!! I little HD and a little beer. :D

PAW,

I'll be there!!! Hopefully you won't be able to pick me out of the crowd. But if you do, then It'll be because I'm wearin' the Boycott Golden T-Shirt. ;)

Hello all,

I have been lurking for a while, getting caught up on this thread. I am up in Frederick (far east Longmont for the "southerners"). At any rate, I was wondering if there were any members this far north and what antenna you're using to pull in DTV signals. I have checked antennaweb and a medium multi-directional would afford me coverage from all over, without the use of a rotary unit.

I was looking at the RS 15-1634, omni directional antenna, figuring I may be able to pull in the WY stations, since from what I read, it is a science to get ABC in dtv from Denver. The Shack does not provide CEA ratings on this one. I will either attic mount it, or put on my Spidey suit and roof mount it.

I am currently using the boomerang that D*TV provided and an H10. I get UPN (2.1), FOX (31.1) and PBS (12.1,2,3) very strong 90+ signal strength.

Thanks in advance.

Hi dafredstone and welcome,
I have had good luck so far with the Radio Shack VU190 antenna, I just completed a fourth install in Longmont this week and you may consider it dumb luck but I have been able to receive everything except 7-1 on all these installs. Like Ernie says, Its a game of inches.

I live in the Highlands (32nd & Lowell area) and I tried a few different antennas from radio shack. The only one that I can get KMGH with was the Terk HDTVa, powered indoor one (looks like a laser gun kind of thing) with the prongs fixed vertically. That gets me 2-1, 4-1, 9-1, 9-2, and 31-1 all coming in very strong.

KMGH at 7-1 and 7-2 comes in about 36-38%. My TV shows the picture at that level, but I haven't tried to watch any HDTV broadcasts with that signal yet. Does anyone know if that level of signal is enough to get HDTV programming?

In order to get it to 36-38%, I had to face the antenna due east (it's on the first floor, pointed right at a wall, and away from a window in order to face east, but it's still working fine), so I lost channel 12, but I'll trade PBS for Monday Night Football anyday.

So, if you're within about 3 miles of downtown and you use that antenna and face it towards downtown, you should be in luck. After reading many of these posts, I was pleasantly shocked to tune in KMGH this morning.

BTW, the other antennas I tried were the powered ones with the circular thing for UHF. They got everything pretty well except they wouldn't get KMGH at all.

Bring on the Giants and Saints Monday night in Hi Def!!

Thanks for the replies.

TheBert; Wow, 13' of antenna and still no 7.1. Any luck with the ABC station in Cheyenne?

CardinalFreak; I tried the Terk laser gun thing (non-amped) with no luck. My set up is in the basement though, and have decided that if I need to run rg6, why not take it all the way to the attic/roof? Plus, I can remove the boomerang and only have to run enough to get to the connector that D*TV provided. So you're one of the few watching MNF in HD; I am green with envy....

The Terk laser gun I have is the powered/amplified one. It plugs into an AC outlet. I think the HDTVi is the unamplified version of the same thing, and I have the HDTVa.

So you think that if I'm seeing 7-1 fine at 36%, that's going to be enough for the hi def broadcasts?

Depends on the tuner. Plus, 36%, if it locks, is better than 0.

cardinalfreak,

You lucky SOB. I'm in Highlands (32nd and Pecos area) and can't get KMGH to lock in with my 8 ft., UHF-only, outdoor mounted, rotator equipped antenna. :mad:

I'm all about annexing golden and declaring it a Frederick suburb. Let's get the HD signals up and running.

Thanks for the replies.

TheBert; Wow, 13' of antenna and still no 7.1. Any luck with the ABC station in Cheyenne?

CardinalFreak; I tried the Terk laser gun thing (non-amped) with no luck. My set up is in the basement though, and have decided that if I need to run rg6, why not take it all the way to the attic/roof? Plus, I can remove the boomerang and only have to run enough to get to the connector that D*TV provided. So you're one of the few watching MNF in HD; I am green with envy....

Welcome, I'm over in west Longmont (Hover and 18th). I get everything except that figment of your imagination ABC-DT station. I use this RS antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2160) and this RS amp (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D2507) A lot of people haven't had good luck with amplifiers, but I would not get the RP channels (4-1,6-1,9-1) without one. It has been said a thousand times on this thread, its all a matter of inches. You just have to experiment. My antenna is actually up in some Aspen trees in my back yard :rolleyes:

The ABC station in Cheyenne is not broadcasting anymore and they were not going to be HD anytime in the near future. The ABC station in CS is suppose to be live with HD by the end of year, but they have been dragging their feet. It is probably unlikely that their signal will reach us anyway. It won't matter next year for me anyway. NBC and ESPN will be doing Sun and Mon football. I haven't watched OTA ABC in years and will never again(I am very stubborn and have a long memory). If UPN starts broadcasting on RP, I'll be set.

TPW - I know it's been a long time since you were looking, but did you ever get an elevation profile from your house to KMGH? It's obviously a moot point since you receive their DT signal, but in case you never did I've attached it. I wasn't able to start at your exact coordinates, but I think they're both close:

TPW: 38 57.822, 105 05.593, elevation 8876
KMGH: 39 44.616, 105 00.101, elevation 5209

The high point at 18.5 miles shows up as 9009 feet - I don't know how much error there is in these points, combined with the error in the coordinates.

TPW - I know it's been a long time since you were looking, but did you ever get an elevation profile from your house to KMGH? It's obviously a moot point since you receive their DT signal, but in case you never did I've attached it. I wasn't able to start at your exact coordinates, but I think they're both close:

TPW: 38 57.822, 105 05.593, elevation 8876
KMGH: 39 44.616, 105 00.101, elevation 5209

The high point at 18.5 miles shows up as 9009 feet - I don't know how much error there is in these points, combined with the error in the coordinates.
Gakon,
Great Job!!!! I'll need to try this out!

The bad news is that it isn't correct(according to my calcs). :(

My calculations show KMGH @ Lat: 39° 43' 35"N Long: 104° 59' 09"W, of course they could be incorrect, but I believe them to be close. I used TopoZone to get them.

Whatever, the coordinates are close enough! The big obstacle that you have at 18.5 miles, is probably Devils Head, which I have at 20.45 miles with the highest elevation of 9,748. Now, here's where the problem is. My azimuth to Devils head is 358° 47' 24", and to KMGH it's 6° 08' 24"(These are true azimuths - Not compass). So, that's over 7°, and at 20.45 miles, I miss the tower on Devils Head by 2.64 miles. Now, of course, I'm assuming the the tower is near the highest point visible from my location. 7° off of the highest point misses DH completely. And, the next highest point is beyond DH. I'll need to climb my tower, and see if I can get a pic of the view in that direction!

I've been searching for free 'Terrain Propagation' software, and you may have just provided it! ;)

Now, what I'm really interested in is the profile to Lookout Mtn. I know that I have a Mtn only a mile or two from me blocking it. But what I don't know is what's after that blockage.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the info!!!! I'll give it a try, and see if I can find the discrepancies!
....jc

OK, here's a new profile for the correct coordinates. I show an azimuth of 6.16° TN. Your line of sight misses Devil's Head by about 4 miles. The map I created was a little too large to load - I might email it to you or try to work on a smaller one later.

Your line of sight to Lookout actually doesn't look so good. You've got a hill about 2.75 miles away at 8967' (compared to your elevation of 8844 according to TOPO! - see note below). And you also look straight at the summit of what appears to be Sheep Mountain (34.9 miles and 8416'). I have Lookout Mountain at 53.6 miles, elevation 7145', azimuth 351.84° TN, 39° 43' 53" N, 105° 14' 07" W. Who knows, if you can get the coat hanger signal from KMGH with a minor obstruction now, maybe you will be able to receive a full power signal from Lookout with more significant obstructions (assuming it's full power in your direction).

Your elevation above is a little lower than I had in the previous email, but I found a way to put your exact coordinates in this time. I'm using National Geographic Back Roads Explorer TOPO! which has maps to 1:100,000 (although some of them say 1:50,000). I've had the software for a couple of months, but only started to use it this week, so there's a lot I don't know how to do yet. Some distances may not match exactly - when I pull points off the profiles, for example, the distances include the effects of terrain (up and down). The endpoints (KMGH and Lookout) are straight line distances. For Lookout Mountain, I just used the "radio towers" highlighted on the map. I'm pretty sure the profile does NOT include the height of the towers.

Gakon,

Great work and very interesting. I don't know about TPW's coordinates, but for KDVR, per the FCC web site, they are at 39/43/45 North and 105/14/12 West with an antenna height above ground level of 81 meters. For KMGH, the coordinates are 39/43/34 North and 104/59/6 West with an antenna height of, you guessed it, ZERO above ground level.

I'm having a tough time understanding how TPW can receive KMGH since it appears the signal would go well above his location (over his head!) due to the mountain obstruction. Of course, it's even worse for KDVR. I guess signals bend a little bit towards the curvature of the earth? Or do I think a 1500 foot tower is needed?

Or do I think a 1500 foot tower is needed?
It looks to me like he would need a 4000' tower! :D There certainly could be some error in the elevations of each point, but I wouldn't think it would be that significant to provide a direct line of sight to KMGH. Maybe there's a side path that allows a reflected signal to get to his antenna, or maybe there's an amplifier somewhere along the way, or maybe God just wants TPW to catch Monday Night Football. It's a gift horse, certainly.

I looked at those topo mapping sites, very cool! No funds for fancy topo software right now, so any chance you fellas could make a quick topo map for me to KMGH?

My coordinates (from one of the address to coordinate converting sites) are:
LAT - 39.7103240
LONG - 104.9768810

Sorry they are not properly formatted, in a big hurry this morning!
Thanks!