Welcome to the miracle of tropospheric communications :) .

Contrary to what some people would have you believe, radio waves do bend and refract. Here's a little "light reading", if you have insomnia some night:

http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/pub/ntia-rpt/tn101/

Notice the names of two of the authors, Longley and Rice (as in "Longley-Rice Predictions", which are used to design communications circuits).

any chance you fellas could make a quick topo map for me to KMGH?

Remember that TOPO programs do NOT have buildings - well, maybe the NSA has some, but the one I've got does not.
I assume you DO get KMGH, since you are virtually in their back yard, and I don't think there are too many buildings in your way. No offense, but your profile isn't nearly as impressive as TPW's (unless one of us got the coordinates wrong).

kenglish - I don't doubt that radio waves bend and refract, but I would have thought the signal would have lost too much strength over 53 miles. But that's obviously not the case.

The bad news is that it isn't correct(according to my calcs). :(

http://www.panelcrafters.net/tpwtok~1.jpg
Gakon also provided me with this image. This image verifies the approximate route(Red Line) that my calculations show to KMGH. Note that the route is about 2-1/2 miles East of Devils Head.

Now, Devils Head is a cool place. You can hike(depending on your health :rolleyes: ) up to one of the last Fire Lookout towers in Colorado, located atop it.

Now if we could get the 'Terrain' software to follow this path, I think that you'd see the true situation.
....jc

Now if we could get the 'Terrain' software to follow this path, I think that you'd see the true situation.

Which path? I was going to boast that the TOPO software could do anything, but that's not true. However, if I can create a path (including a wandering one) then the software can map the profile - it doesn't just have to be a straight line.

Which path?
The RED line on the map that you provided me(displayed on the previous page). If you will look at it, there is nothing on it that is as high as my location. Thus, no blockages.
....jc

The profile I attached (TPW to KMGH profile.jpg) was for that line. The map was only intended to show the offset from the line to Devil's Head. But if you look at the bottom of the map (just above the "5") you'll see a bold contour line which is 2750 meters (9022 feet). The profile software shows the intersection of the red line and the contour line at 8991 feet (I had said 9009 feet in my original email, but that was with my coordinates for KMGH, not yours). So it's not Devil's Head, but what appears to be a shoulder of Dakan Mtn. that's the high point in your line of sight.
There's going to be some variation in these numbers - your elevation shows up as 8861', so it's lower than this shoulder. I don't know what method the software uses to determine elevation, so I'm not going to vouch for its accuracy.

But if you look at the bottom of the map (just above the "5") you'll see a bold contour line which is 2750 meters (9022 feet).
Actually, I believe that is the 2500 meter contour line. ;)

I've included a mediocre pic of the view toward Denver. It was taken about 12' below the antenna elevation. I believe that my line to KMGH is in the low area to the Right of DH. As you can see, there is really nothing blocking my view until past DH, and this image doesn't show that background.
....jc

Actually, I believe that is the 2500 meter contour line. ;)

No, it really is the 2750m line. :) I think your picture shows Dakan as that little peak below and to the right of Devil's Head. Dakan is 9179' (almost 2800m) vs. Devil's Head at 9748'. Your line of sight passes just to the right of Dakan's summit. But since KMGH's signal isn't a laser beam, line of sight isn't all that matters, as kenglish mentioned earlier.

No, it really is the 2750m line. :)
I stand corrected. :o I found the correct map, and it's a separate high area.

The only explaination is the signal is refracting(arcing) from the transmitter.

Looking at the profiles, you would think that I would have better luck to Lookout. But that simply ain't happ'nin.

Now the Fox debacle. KXRM(Fox 21 - Springs) has denied my waiver for Fox West. I tried to call the general manager on Friday, and he ducked my call. Pussy. So, since the dude that called me from Fox has been a no show, I've upped the ante. I requested an HD 'signal check' for my location. These clowns at KXRM know that nobody can get their signal up here, they even have a 'translator' station on Gold Hill in Woodland Park to prove it! It's a directional analog transmitter pointed directly at Divide(the path from there, behind Pike's Peak, to the West). So, now it's going to cost somebody to send someone out here to see zeros on a meter.

I've also called KDVR to see if they are going to request 'Significantly Viewed' status for Teller County. They haven't responded, so I'll need to try again. Getting that status, would be a 'back door' way of getting Fox HD.
....jc

OK I have a friend who lives in the action-packed city of Arvada, where the fun never ends. He doesn't want to create a user account for 5 posts to ask what I am about to ask, but I plan on helping him install his antenna.

Anyway what would be recommended? A rooftop non-amplified antenna from Radio Shack or an amplified one in the attic from Circuit City? Also, what is the model # for the preferred Radio Shack rooftop antenna that everyone here seems to like? Also we understand the need for low-loss coaxial to run the antenna down into his dungeon where is HDTV is. Is there a specific line or catalog # for the cable we'll need? He can't see downtown from his roof because many trees are in the way. We are contemplating burning them down to increase reception.

Any tips would be great. Here are some other general questions:

-Would the antenna need to be "pointed" somewhere? Southwards maybe since he is in the thrill-city of Arvada?

-We want to drill through the floor, ceiling and roof to route the cable. Would it be better to have the cable run along the outside of the house so someone can cut it when they get angry at my friend?

-What tools are needed to cut and splice the coaxial cable to the antenna and the other end to screw in to the TV? I have spliced enough wire in my day to figure out HOW to do it, but I'd like to be using the correct tools for the job.

-Do you think if they put a Radio Shack out in the middle of a large desert that a city would quickly spring up around it because Radio Shack is so awesome? :)

-We want to drill through the floor, ceiling and roof to route the cable. Would it be better to have the cable run along the outside of the house so someone can cut it when they get angry at my friend? city would quickly Well, it depends on where on the roof the antenna is and where the cable needs to end up at. I'd recommend NOT having exposed cable inside the house. It's kind of ugly. I'd also recommend NOT drilling through the roof. Take the cable around and enter under the eaves. Drilling through the roof is asking for a water leak. If you have access to the attic, you can get into the walls. Fishing cable through walls is a PITA. However, it's the neatest and cleanest install. No cables to see. Since you want to take it to the basement, you'll likely need access to the wall cavity there also. Interior walls are easier to pull cable through no insulation to deal with. Be sure to plan carefully where the cable goes. You don't want to drill through an electrical cable. Did I mention that pulling cable through walls is a PITA. Especially two floor worth. You may want to look at having a pro to that it. Warping cable around the house isn't too pretty but it's a lot easier. You can paint the cable and it kind of blends in. I wouldn't see any one messing with the outside cable.

For cable, I think RG6 quad shielded should be fine. I'm not sure is RG59, which is thinner, is enough. Others should be able to confirm this.

Gakon,
Can you run another profile from my friend's house? He is about 0.6 miles from mine, and he's up higher. It will be a real interesting profile to see! We were able to pick KDVR with a small antenna that was inside his house.

The coordinates are: Lat: 38° 57' 44"N Long: 105° 04' 51"W

Thanks,
....jc

Gakon,
Can you run another profile from my friend's house?

No problem, but you'll have to wait until I get home tonight (I don't have the software at work). It doesn't take very long to do it. Do you want me to run a profile to KMGH, KDVR, or both? If you want KDVR, can you provide the coordinates?

Guys,
I'm just curious, what good does all this mapping provide? There is no easy way to determine if you can receive HD at your location even if the map says you have a shot. We've all learned that. I'm too far out and behind two hills to receive reception and yet I do. I'm even pointed about 30 degrees off where it should be (due to those hills) There are so many variables like seasonal foliage(sp), weather conditions, reflections, locusts... whatever.

Just get on the roof, convince the wife to help with a walkie-talkie and start pointing in every direction like a wacko on crack! ;)

No problem, but you'll have to wait until I get home tonight (I don't have the software at work). It doesn't take very long to do it. Do you want me to run a profile to KMGH, KDVR, or both? If you want KDVR, can you provide the coordinates?
Gakon,
Both please! The results will be very interesting!

For KDVR the Coordinates are: Lat: 39° 43' 45"N Long: 105° 14' 12"W

Something else that would be interesting is KGWN(Cheyenne), from my location please. It's at: Lat: 41° 06' 01"N Long: 105° 00' 23"W


Guys,
I'm just curious, what good does all this mapping provide? There is no easy way to determine if you can receive HD at your location even if the map says you have a shot. We've all learned that.
So true. But if you have LOS the odds improve quite a bit.
....jc

I'm just curious, what good does all this mapping provide?

Um, nothing other than I learned how to use the software. ;)

I not poo-poo'ing your efforts - really. But, just that even if you can get a LOS shot at a transmitter, it still doesn't mean you're gonna' get anything. Or inversely, look at jc, he's getting ABC and shouldn't. It's exactly like the 5 stages of serious illness...

Denial - I'm gonna' beat the odds and get that damn signal!
Anger - This HT thing sucks!!!! F@*% YOU sCARE!
Bargaining - Honey, it's really worth it, really... Can I take you shopping today?
Depression - I've spent thousands on an HDTV, receiver, antennas, cable, preamps etc. Where's the flippin' Xanax???
Acceptance - I'm never gonna' get ABC!

So the weird one for me is why can I pick up 9-1 but not 4-1 (not even on the gauge) seems weird to me that except for the frequency difference the antennas are 42.5 miles away and yet nothing. Maybe I am getting a reflection for the9-1 signal....who knows.

I not poo-poo'ing your efforts - really. But, just that even if you can get a LOS shot at a transmitter, it still doesn't mean you're gonna' get anything.
From my experiences, I would find it hard to believe that if you have LOS to a transmitter, and it's radiation pattern indicates a signal in your direction, that you would be able to pick up the signal.

As far as I know, I don't have LOS to anything but a twig 2 miles away that's repeating KXRM's analog signal. Yet, I'm able to pick up 6 stations that are at least 50 miles away.

I have 2 receivers, and only 1 of them has a signal strength meter. And that meter is pretty worthless because it only works if you can view the channel. I borrowed a receiver from a friend of mine, that has a meter that works all the time. What I learned from it is very telling. I receive a signal from basically all of the stations in the Denver area, and the top strength for each station is in the 80's or 90's. The problem is that for the stations that I can't receive, the signal strength drops to zero every few seconds. I assume that is a multipath situation, and that's the biggest problem for people like me out in the sticks.
....jc

Um, nothing other than I learned how to use the software. ;)


Ah, before you realize that you could turn this into a home business and charge for the effort, may I get an elevation profile from KMGH to my house?

I was finally able to lock KMGH w/ a highly amplified XG91 in my attic and I'd like to confirm my theory about why a 20 degree up-tilt was necessary. The profile would also give me a look at what I tried to do by hand using topo maps on-line for comparison.

KMGH 39 degrees, 43', 34" and -104 degrees, 59', 6"

My house in Arvada 39.821750, -105.131930

Not sure what form you need the coordinates in, but this is all I have available at work.

Thanks in advance,

CEB II

Not sure what form you need the coordinates in, but this is all I have available at work.

That form is fine. And I suspect that the number of people requesting this "service" will be small - I will not be charging for it. As I told TPW, it will be tonight (hopefully no later than 10 pm) when I can get to it.

OK I have a friend who lives in the action-packed city of Arvada, where the fun never ends. He doesn't want to create a user account for 5 posts to ask what I am about to ask, but I plan on helping him install his antenna.

Anyway what would be recommended? A rooftop non-amplified antenna from Radio Shack or an amplified one in the attic from Circuit City? Also, what is the model # for the preferred Radio Shack rooftop antenna that everyone here seems to like? Also we understand the need for low-loss coaxial to run the antenna down into his dungeon where is HDTV is. Is there a specific line or catalog # for the cable we'll need? He can't see downtown from his roof because many trees are in the way. We are contemplating burning them down to increase reception.

Any tips would be great. Here are some other general questions:

-Would the antenna need to be "pointed" somewhere? Southwards maybe since he is in the thrill-city of Arvada?

-We want to drill through the floor, ceiling and roof to route the cable. Would it be better to have the cable run along the outside of the house so someone can cut it when they get angry at my friend?

-What tools are needed to cut and splice the coaxial cable to the antenna and the other end to screw in to the TV? I have spliced enough wire in my day to figure out HOW to do it, but I'd like to be using the correct tools for the job.

-Do you think if they put a Radio Shack out in the middle of a large desert that a city would quickly spring up around it because Radio Shack is so awesome? :)

Hey, take it easy on Arvada. It beats the heck out of far south Aurora where I used to live. Besides, at 59, my night-life consists mostly of falling asleep in front of my HDTV during the 10 PM news.

Anyway, did you run antennaweb for your friend's location? What were the results (colors) for the major stations? A giant, directional UHF antenna or an amplified medium directional antenna should get you all of the major stations. However, KMGH is iffy in Arvada as others have found. If antennaweb shows KMGH as VIOLET, don't get your hopes up no matter what antenna you use. BTW, antennaweb will give you the compass headings to the various broadcasting towers and the KMGH coat hanger.

I got all of the majors, except KMGH w/ an amplified, medium directional antenna in my attic (3rd level) and I'm down in the Ralston Creek creek bed.

Coax? No RG-59! If money is no object, use quad-shielded RG-6. RS sells it, $50 for 100 feet, but Lowes has it for $40. As for connectors and tools, you can spend as much on compression fitting tools as you do on the antenna and coax. If these are the only connections you ever intend to make, the Zenith kit at Lowes may work well enough and long enough to finish the job. Must be used carefully as the compressor and/or fittings break easily.

I pulled my coax through inside and outside walls from the attic to the basement and back up to my first floor family room. It was a PITA. It takes two to accomplish and you really need a fish tape.

So the weird one for me is why can I pick up 9-1 but not 4-1 (not even on the gauge) seems weird to me that except for the frequency difference the antennas are 42.5 miles away and yet nothing. Maybe I am getting a reflection for the9-1 signal....who knows.I believe the frequency difference (ch35, vs. ch16) is a significant factor. I have always seen lower signal strength on KCNC than KUSA, and I'm about half the distance from Republic as you are. In my case it's enough - that's the beauty and the curse of digital.

Hmmm.... this DTV reception thing really IS tricky...

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/images/Jetlag%20Topo.jpg

So, are you saying that my 90+ signal strength from KMGH could possibly have something to do with the fact that I am only 1.19 miles from the transmitter, my roof (mast) mounted 4228 is about 50' off the ground (which gives me not only LOS), but my antenna is effectively on eye level with the transmitter? :rolleyes: Would this actually improve my chances of reception?

I don't understand why everyone else is having such a tough time. ;) Seems pretty straightforward to me. :p

So the weird one for me is why can I pick up 9-1 but not 4-1 (not even on the gauge) seems weird to me that except for the frequency difference the antennas are 42.5 miles away and yet nothing. Maybe I am getting a reflection for the9-1 signal....who knows.

I believe that there are 3 directional lobes on each antenna, so you may be in the sweet spot of the north lobe for channel 16 and not channel 35 in addition to the frequency difference.

Don

I believe that there are 3 directional lobes on each antenna, so you may be in the sweet spot of the north lobe for channel 16 and not channel 35 in addition to the frequency difference.

Don

So how big are these lobes if I moved the antenna over a few feet matter or are we talking miles? Talk about take us back 50 years for this stuff :)

So how big are these lobes if I moved the antenna over a few feet matter or are we talking miles?It could only be inches! I move my antenna 6" in any direction and I lose the signal.

From S. Lafayette with my antenna I see 60-65% for KCNC-DT and 70-75% for KUSA-DT. I'm also a bit confused as to why KCNC-DT comes in weaker than KUSA-DT. Even a pre-amp doesn't help. I even tried a bigger antenna but could not get any more signal.

There may be other factors (e.g., KUSA is listed as broadcasting from 1 meter higher than KCNC), but I believe the main difference is their frequency. Higher frequencies require more ERP to cover the same distance. Since they are both at about the same ERP (KUSA 10.9 kw; KCNC 11.0 kw), KCNC has a weaker signal. BTW, KRMA, also at RP, is 13.8 kw and 6 meters higher yet, but is usually a weaker signal than KUSA and stronger than KCNC.

Well I thought I would post the results of my latest testing and tweaking to get KCNC. I really wanted to get the over the air feed for the Broncos vs. Dolphins (that was a mistake but a whole nother topic).

In the past I had been able to recieve KCNC-DT pretty well but over the last year it had gotten much worse for some reason, to where I didn't get a signal at all. All the other stations seemed to still come in just fine, except ABC of course. I have a large Channel Master UFH only antenna in the attic with a pretty long run of cable (about 250 ft.) to a HD-TIVO. I've tried other antennas but this one seemed to work just as well.

Well it was time to get back up in the attic, but this time I took up a small 13" TV, which just fit through the opening and my old Sony HD-100 reciever. When I got up there I hooked everything up and found out that I was getting a signal strength of over 90 on all channels except 35, and it was still about 85 or so. Since I had everything up there anyway I tweeked the antenna to optimize channel 35 and got it to right around 90.

But when I went down to the HD-Tivo, still only a weak signal on channel 35 and it wouldn't lock. I think the signal strength was around 45 or so. All the other channels at the Tivo were in the 80's.

I was starting to think it must be the long cable run that was causing the problem. But before I did anything else I hooked up the Sony down at the end of the long run of cable instead of the Tivo and it was still holding at 85 on the signal strength meter so really the long cable run wasn't affecting it all the much. I just seems that the Tivo was not picking up the signal as well as the Sony.

The day before I started this whole mess I had picked up 100' of cable thinking that if I had to, to get the game I would just run that direct. Well it turns out I didn't need that, but when I was at Radio Shack they also had a Pre-amp. Well I had tried a couple of different pre-amps in the past but they didn't seem to help, and actually made things worse. But this pre-amp was a little different, it had a varialbe gain on it as well as an FM Trap. I had heard that sometimes pre-amps will over load the tuner and casue it to be worse.

Well since it was from Radio Shack and I new they would take it back I figured I had nothing to loose so I hooked up this pre-amp. And as all the others I had tried it made it worse, but then I flipped the switch for the FM trap and my signal for channel 35 jumped up into the mid's 60's! The only problem I have seen with this set up is that all my other channels have dropped from in the 80's and 90's down into the 60's as well, but they all still lock and seem to work fine.

So I guess the moral to this long story is that keep trying and trying, eventually you might get something to work.

I am now a happy camper, and you know I haven't watched ABC except for Monday night football in over two years now, and I really don't miss it.

I do wonder what the FM Trap switch is doing, but if it works I guess I shouldn't really care.

Later
Joe

You might want to also try a variable attenuator on the input to the amp. Some amps have one gain stage before the built-in gain control, so there may be a bit of overload happening there, too.

The FM trap helps often. FM stations put out a very dense signal. When there are many of them, all of that energy adds up. Often, a large number of FM stations together causes more overload problems than one or two extremely strong ones. That energy pushes the amplifier into a condition where it causes distortion....combinations of everything it sees, multiplied all up and down the spectrum. In analog, it shows up as beats and "ghost images" in the picture. In Digital, it drowns out some of the lower bits in the data.

During my current 'Saga', I've been playing with my antennas quite a bit. I've always had some amount of 'noise' that has been causing the analog pictures to be less than perfect. The digital signals flow through the same system, and they have not been affected. I noticed that when the amplified antenna feeds were disconnected, the picture quality improved. So, it's now obvious, that the preamps are the cause of the problems.

I'm going to try some attenuators on the preamp output to see if that helps.

These damn things all seem to have way too much gain. A lot of people are buying them thinking the more the better. The CM 7775 I just got has 26db of gain. All I really need is about 5db. Since I have a amplified central distribution panel, all I need is enough gain to overcome the attenuation in the cable run from the antenna to there. That's it!

Now, if I didn't have the distribution panel, I could see where that much gain (with splitters and cable runs) could be beneficial. But in my case it's a waste.
....jc

... And as all the others I had tried it made it worse, but then I flipped the switch for the FM trap and my signal for channel 35 jumped up into the mid's 60's!Me too. The FM trap, lowest possible gain (about 9-12db), and also filtering out VHF, is the only way I get RP stations here in Elizabeth. But KCNC-DT is my worse -- 50-50 for me, with daytime being more often successful than nighttime (unfortunately).

So, I recently moved out to Elizabeth and it is amazing but with my little Silver Sensor indoor antenna, I get WB, NBC, CBS and Fox. I really can't believe it that I can pick up a signal from so far away. I am going to try with a CM 4228 or a 3020 to see if I can improve the strength, but their is hope "in the fringes"
.
---Doug

Welcome to "Kansas", ITA.

Did anyone try to watch some of LOTR-TT on WB last night? I tried and it locked up my receiver (RCA). It showed nothing on 2-1, analog 2, or any D* channel after that until I power cycled.

I have a large Channel Master UFH only antenna in the attic with a pretty long run of cable (about 250 ft.) to a HD-TIVO. I've tried other antennas but this one seemed to work just as well.
.
.
.
Well it turns out I didn't need that, but when I was at Radio Shack they also had a Pre-amp. Well I had tried a couple of different pre-amps in the past but they didn't seem to help, and actually made things worse. But this pre-amp was a little different, it had a varialbe gain on it as well as an FM Trap. I had heard that sometimes pre-amps will over load the tuner and casue it to be worse.

Did you consider a UHF only preamp? There shouldn't be a FM trap to mess with. Also, consider the 'Noise' that it adds to the signal. A high noise factor, reduces the effectiveness of your system. And, unfortunately, Rat Shack preamps have high noise factors.
....jc

I tried what I think was a UHF pre-amp, it was supposed to be a real low powered one. It's still in the basement in the box it came in. Maybe it wasn't a UHF only one.

All I know is that this one seems to work pretty good. Might help some others out there too.

I really think my biggest problem was that the Tivo pull in the signal as well as the older first generation Sony did. But I'm not giving up my Tivo.

Welcome to "Kansas", ITA.

Did anyone try to watch some of LOTR-TT on WB last night? I tried and it locked up my receiver (RCA). It showed nothing on 2-1, analog 2, or any D* channel after that until I power cycled.I watched it intermittently for a couple hours. At one point (can't remember exactly when) the picture froze, went out completely for a couple minutes, came back as SD for about a minute, then back to HD. 2-0 was unaffected.

What I saw in HD looked great; I recorded a smidgen on my PC, and it looked like they were using pretty near full bit rate.

Gakon,
Both please! The results will be very interesting!

It would probably be a lot easier to mail you a Powerpoint file, so that you can rearrange the profiles to compare them as you want. I'm sending them to the email address I used the other day. I could reduce the size of the files so that they would fit within the limits set by AVSForum, but you probably couldn't do much with them at that point. There are 5 profiles - from your location to KMGH, KDVR (Lookout), and KGWN (the first two of these are repeats), and from your friend's location to KMGH and KDVR.

Feel free to write back or PM with questions. Just don't hold your breath.

may I get an elevation profile from KMGH to my house?

Profile to KMGH is attached. The two natural obstructions appear to be south of W 66th Place at 0.5 miles and at W 34th and Utica at 6 miles. I can see how an up tilt could help.
Not that it's worth much, but the profile to KDVR shows you'll have no problem receiving anything from up on Lookout.

Ok Guys,
I need some help. I have been in my friends attic trying to get "the good signals" and I have run into a snag, We are starting to receive some HD channels and I am loosing them at the splitter. We hooked up a RS amp and that didn't help either. I think I have him talked into moving the antenna (RS 190) on the roof but he wants to try a different splitter first, Does anyone know if there is good splitter out there or are they all about the same? His TV has no signal meter so we are just guessing by trial and error.

Thanks,

First off, any splitter is 'bad'. With our situation of low power, you need to keep the signal path as clean as possible. Why is he using a splitter in the first place? Does he have more than one DTV? If he's using it for some analog tv's, then most likely they will have to go.

If he insists on splitting, (Most splitters are the same, just better gold connectors) then it sounds like the roof might give him some added signal strength.

Ok Guys,
I need some help. I have been in my friends attic trying to get "the good signals" and I have run into a snag, We are starting to receive some HD channels and I am loosing them at the splitter. We hooked up a RS amp and that didn't help either. I think I have him talked into moving the antenna (RS 190) on the roof but he wants to try a different splitter first, Does anyone know if there is good splitter out there or are they all about the same? His TV has no signal meter so we are just guessing by trial and error.

Thanks,

I don't think the quality of the splitter is going to make a difference. That being said, I do have a splitter in my setup. I looked at it and I think it is some cheapo brand (TVC) that was wired into the cable lines in my house before I moved in. I have a 100 ft cable run from my antenna to my RS amp, then a 2 foot run (again taken from the previous cable setup) to my 2 way splitter. then its a 25' run to my projector and a 50' run to my plasma.

I do lose a few points with this configuration. My signals are all 70 or over so it really doesn't matter. I think you need to concentrate on getting a strong set of signals first, then you can worry about splitting!

Thanks sunshinedawg. I thought about trying that antenna and will do so in the next few days. BTW how tall are those aspens??

Ok Guys,
We are starting to receive some HD channels and I am loosing them at the splitter. We hooked up a RS amp and that didn't help either.

How long is the cable run from the antenna to the splitter?

Try bypassing the splitter, and using one of the lines to see what you get.

You may need a preamp. But whatever you do, amplify the signal before using any splitters.

Also, if you do get a preamp get a low noise one(CM 7775 for instance), and also get some attenuators, as most preamps have more gain than you'll need.
....jc

The apsens are only 30'. The antenna is about 25' up. The reason why it works so well is that the trees are on the fence line. My fence line is perfectly in line with Republic plaza, so I get no inteferrence with other houses or objects. The antenna has a clear shot down the fences. Took me awhile to figure that one out. :D I get 2-1 and 31-1 by default in the mid 80's, my strongest signals even though the antenna is not pointed at lookout. :confused: I guess I am far enough north and with such strong signals (compared to RP) I get the lookout signals 25o off axis.

Gakon, could you check my profile from Longmont to Cheyenne Mt ? (where KRDO is suppose to have an ABCHD signal by the end of this year). I know it's a long shot but I think I'm far enough north that the Palmer divide won't make a difference. I think the real problem will be curvature of the earth.
I'm at 40.190158 105.122920 and Cheyenne Mt is at 38 44 45
104 51 37.3 Thanks!

FWIW, I use these (they also make a 4-way). They are made for DBS, but having 2Ghz of bandwidth can't be a bad thing. I've had good luck using them.

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/images/Sat-BS2.jpg

I split my UHF signal between two receivers (at least I used to ;) ) and have never had any issues.

I recently tried the Radio Shack largest ( I think it is the 180) antenna to try to improve my reception. It didnt help and it has been too long for me to feel comfortable returning it. I straightened up my 4228 (after the wind blew it down) and now have pretty good reception again.

Anyway, if someone would like to have this antenna, contact me offline and it is yours to pick up.

George M
george@homeation.net

GeorgeM - Where are you in Parker? I live in Stonegate, just North of Chaparral HS. What channels are you able to pick up @ your location?

I get 2, 4, 6, 9, 12, 31, 53 and a few others @ times. I'm using a Winegard SS-2000 as of now.

-robert

Gakon emailed me two more profiles which I've attached. The 1st one includes a new profile from my place to KGWN in Cheyenne. I've almost got LOS to there. The 2nd profile is from my friend Doug's place to KMGH & KDVR. Interesting stuff. He would have LOS to KDVR except for one mountain.

I did a little research, and these are the antenna elevations that I came up with:

KDVR = 7,621
KMGH = 5,321
KGWN = 7,218

I used the construction permit for KGWN because I think that they are at full power now. Any confirmation on that?

Thanks Gakon!
....jc

rmeredith,

I live about 6 miles directly east of Parker -- below a hill. I can receive all the digital channels except 7 (of course). Channel 4 is the most touchy. Sometimes it will break up. Don't know if it weather, trees, planes or what. I do know that my 6200 (Bell's version of the Dish 942) will lock on much better than my D* 250-10.

By the way, does anyone else who has the 6200 know about any software upgrades that are due. The timers are archaic compared to the DirecTIvo. I cant believe you cant set up a season pass except to say "record at this time every week".

George m

I recently tried the Radio Shack largest ( I think it is the 180) antenna to try to improve my reception. It didnt help and it has been too long for me to feel comfortable returning it. I straightened up my 4228 (after the wind blew it down) and now have pretty good reception again.

Anyway, if someone would like to have this antenna, contact me offline and it is yours to pick up.

George M
george@homeation.netNO! NO! NO! Just take it back. If you have the box, the manuals and all the parts. The worst they can do is say no. ;)

A third alternative, created by the 2004 SHVERA statute, will allow for signal testing at your household to determine if you are “served” by a digital signal over-the-air. In some cases, if you are shown to be “unserved,” you would be eligible for distant digital signals, provided you subscribe to local-into-local analog service if it is offered. However, this digital testing option is not available until April 30, 2006 (in the top 100 television markets) and July 15, 2007 (in all other television markets). In addition, your satellite carrier may refuse to arrange for the digital signal test, and in that case, you may arrange and pay for a test yourself, under the supervision of the satellite carrier. Your satellite carrier can tell you whether you are in a top 100 market and whether it will help you to arrange for a digital signal test once the testing provisions take effect in 2006 or 2007.

So, unless Denver gets HD LIL before then, all of you D* people have a recourse(finally) for KMGH's poor behavior.

Now, even though it's before the deadline, I have requested an signal test for Fox. We'll see what happens.
....jc

Ron and others,

We did experience a problem with our HD encoder around 8:30pm during LOTR-TT for about 5 minutes. The problem was corrected and everything returned to normal.

Thanks for watching and the input!

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado
KWGN-HDTV 2-1

Profile to KMGH is attached. The two natural obstructions appear to be south of W 66th Place at 0.5 miles and at W 34th and Utica at 6 miles. I can see how an up tilt could help.
Not that it's worth much, but the profile to KDVR shows you'll have no problem receiving anything from up on Lookout.

Thanks GAKON.

The near obstruction is a ridge line I can see from my roof. I've tilted my antenna to just clear the top of it and the structures on top of it. The signal must start bending down beyond the ridgeline in my direction. That explains why on the antennaweb map I get BLUE, but as I move toward the ridgeline it goes to VIOLET.

The other obstruction appears to be a small hill in Pferdsteller Park. I'm guessing the KMGH signal splits and bends around it since its area is relatively small. That might explain why my KMGH signal stays as strong when I rotate my antenna a few degrees south of a direct shot azimuth.

Love those bending RF signals!

could you check my profile from Longmont to Cheyenne Mt?
If there's any height to KRDO's tower, it sure looks like you've got line of sight.

At least I know I've got the KDVR, KGWN, and KRDO locations correct because those points are all labeled as "Radio Tower" on the TOPO map. Surprisingly there's no such designation for KMGH. :p

I'm pretty sure I've put all of your coordinates in correctly (especially since I've done TPW's about 3 or 4 times while learning the program and they always end up in the same place).

sunshinedawg, your coordinates are pretty close to what's labeled a Radio Tower up in Longmont, north of 17th. Is that correct?

Finally, these plots appear to be about the largest that I'm able to post. I don't think I have a program on my Mac to downrez larger versions of these profiles. But if anyone has any hints, I'll try them.

At least I know I've got the KDVR, KGWN, and KRDO locations correct because those points are all labeled as "Radio Tower" on the TOPO map. Surprisingly there's no such designation for KMGH. :p
The exact coordinates are available here. (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html)

I'm pretty sure I've put all of your coordinates in correctly (especially since I've done TPW's about 3 or 4 times while learning the program and they always end up in the same place).
Not again. I'm just another guinea pig. :mad:

....jc

If there's any height to KRDO's tower, it sure looks like you've got line of sight.

At least I know I've got the KDVR, KGWN, and KRDO locations correct because those points are all labeled as "Radio Tower" on the TOPO map. Surprisingly there's no such designation for KMGH. :p

I'm pretty sure I've put all of your coordinates in correctly (especially since I've done TPW's about 3 or 4 times while learning the program and they always end up in the same place).

sunshinedawg, your coordinates are pretty close to what's labeled a Radio Tower up in Longmont, north of 17th. Is that correct?

Finally, these plots appear to be about the largest that I'm able to post. I don't think I have a program on my Mac to downrez larger versions of these profiles. But if anyone has any hints, I'll try them.

WOW! Thanks gakon, I was happy to see it looks like I've got a good shot! :cool: I've got to find out how high that tower is. We all know that this only goes so far (pun intended) as to whether or not I'll be able to receive KRDO, but I think it is a good sign. Maybe I should point my vhf antenna that way and see if I can get thier analog channel 13. I guess I'll find out soon enough. I think you are absolutely right with those coordinates. That radio/cell tower is about a quarter of a mile west of my house! :)

I've got to find out how high that tower is. We all know that this only goes so far (pun intended) as to whether or not I'll be able to receive KRDO, but I think it is a good sign.
All of the 'towers' up there are just toys(but then they are on the top of a mountain). They have listed an elevation of 9,518' for the transmitter, and it's supposed to be 138.5' above the ground. Now, the summit of Cheyenne Mtn. is 9,565. Most of the C/S 'towers' are up there, and they are all clustered on the East edge of the Mtn.
Maybe I should point my vhf antenna that way and see if I can get thier analog channel 13.
Absolutely! If you can't get their analog signal, I'd have doubts about getting their new digital one.
....jc

Hey Sunshinedawg,

I grabbed up that antenna and amp from the Shack yesterday. I neglected to see that I needed an outdoor 300-75 Ohm converter, so I went to Home Depot. They had an amp at 1/2 the cost of RS, so I got that as well, figuring to take back all that I do not need.

Working from least expensive/no roof work solution, I tried the HD amp with my existing antenna; 4.1 signal strength went from nothing to about 45%. I flipped on the FM trap and got it to lock, 54-65%. 9.1 and 9.2 are solid, as is 22.1.

Just as a test, I tried the RS amp. Similar results, until I attenuated the signal, at which point there were no drops at all.

Have you frequency swept the amp with and without the FM trap set, I wonder is there is a decrese in gain? Also, I am curious to know whether they are using a band stop filter, or somehow switching in a tuned notch filter.

Needless to say, the stuff from the Shack is going back and I may pick up their attenuator, since that is the only feature the one I am keeping lacks. (or I might build one if I find the time) It is an RCA VH-121, btw. I opened the box and thought about adding a simply 3 lead pot at the input to adjust the gain.

Hey Sunshinedawg,

I grabbed up that antenna and amp from the Shack yesterday. I neglected to see that I needed an outdoor 300-75 Ohm converter, so I went to Home Depot. They had an amp at 1/2 the cost of RS, so I got that as well, figuring to take back all that I do not need.

Working from least expensive/no roof work solution, I tried the HD amp with my existing antenna; 4.1 signal strength went from nothing to about 45%. I flipped on the FM trap and got it to lock, 54-65%. 9.1 and 9.2 are solid, as is 22.1.

Just as a test, I tried the RS amp. Similar results, until I attenuated the signal, at which point there were no drops at all.

Have you frequency swept the amp with and without the FM trap set, I wonder is there is a decrese in gain? Also, I am curious to know whether they are using a band stop filter, or somehow switching in a tuned notch filter.

Needless to say, the stuff from the Shack is going back and I may pick up their attenuator, since that is the only feature the one I am keeping lacks. (or I might build one if I find the time) It is an RCA VH-121, btw. I opened the box and thought about adding a simply 3 lead pot at the input to adjust the gain.

Wow, are you getting low power KRDO-ABD DT in Frederick? They are supposed to go high power in October. Or are they channel 24, I forget.

Don

All of the 'towers' up there are just toys(but then they are on the top of a mountain). They have listed an elevation of 9,518' for the transmitter, and it's supposed to be 138.5' above the ground. Now, the summit of Cheyenne Mtn. is 9,565. Most of the C/S 'towers' are up there, and they are all clustered on the East edge of the Mtn.

Absolutely! If you can't get their analog signal, I'd have doubts about getting their new digital one.
....jc

I'll take anything that's higher than the top of Cheyenne mountain :D

Turned my vhf/uhf combo antenna (found it in my attic disconnected about 2 months after I bought my house, which was a nice surprise!) from lookout towards Cheyenne mtn. This antenna is also up in the trees now. I have it hooked up to the wifes TV so I don't have to split my signal anymore then I have to on the digital rig. Her tv doesn't have a digital tuner anyway.


KTSC-8 PBS very strong picture, good sound, slightly fuzzy
KKTV-11 CBS seems like there is strong signal, lots of multipath, sound breaks up, I think there is a pbs repeater channel 11 in boulder intefering
KRDO-13 ABC can barely make out the picture, black and white only, no sound

I was not able to pick up any of the low power digitals. I was really hoping to be able to see KXRM's analog 21 because it is close in frequency to 24-1 (KRDO-DT) but I saw absolutely nothing, not sure why. According to the FCC, they are at 1000kw and KTSC-8 is only at 234kw. I guess its the distance and vhf vs uhf :confused:

Hey Sunshinedawg,

I grabbed up that antenna and amp from the Shack yesterday. I neglected to see that I needed an outdoor 300-75 Ohm converter, so I went to Home Depot. They had an amp at 1/2 the cost of RS, so I got that as well, figuring to take back all that I do not need.

Working from least expensive/no roof work solution, I tried the HD amp with my existing antenna; 4.1 signal strength went from nothing to about 45%. I flipped on the FM trap and got it to lock, 54-65%. 9.1 and 9.2 are solid, as is 22.1.

Just as a test, I tried the RS amp. Similar results, until I attenuated the signal, at which point there were no drops at all.

Have you frequency swept the amp with and without the FM trap set, I wonder is there is a decrese in gain? Also, I am curious to know whether they are using a band stop filter, or somehow switching in a tuned notch filter.

Needless to say, the stuff from the Shack is going back and I may pick up their attenuator, since that is the only feature the one I am keeping lacks. (or I might build one if I find the time) It is an RCA VH-121, btw. I opened the box and thought about adding a simply 3 lead pot at the input to adjust the gain.

I get a few more points with the FM trap set to in. I haven't really done a frequency scan with and without the trap. I did notice a big difference when I adjusted the gain. My rig works the best when the gain is turned up most of the way.

Wow, are you getting low power KRDO-ABD DT in Frederick? They are supposed to go high power in October. Or are they channel 24, I forget.

Don

yep, KRDO-DT is 24-1

ssd,
If you check out the radiation patterns, you'll see some similarities to your situation.

KTSC-8 PBS very strong picture, good sound, slightly fuzzy

They have the most favorable pattern for your location.
KKTV-11 CBS seems like there is strong signal, lots of multipath, sound breaks up, I think there is a pbs repeater channel 11 in boulder intefering
The pattern peters out to the North.
KRDO-13 ABC can barely make out the picture, black and white only, no sound
Not as good of a pattern as KTSC, and doesn't go quite as far West.
I was not able to pick up any of the low power digitals. I was really hoping to be able to see KXRM's analog 21 because it is close in frequency to 24-1 (KRDO-DT) but I saw absolutely nothing, not sure why. According to the FCC, they are at 1000kw and KTSC-8 is only at 234kw. I guess its the distance and vhf vs uhf :confused:
Yea, you look to be SOL for KXRM. Weird pattern. Mostly South & West, which is strange because C/S is East! Not much at all to the North. However, their digital pattern(as well as KRDO's) is favorable to the North.

Can you pick up 46(53) KWHD in Castle Rock? Very favorable pattern for you. I've had it programmed before, but I've never turned my antenna in that direction to see if I can get it.
....jc

ssd,


Yea, you look to be SOL for KXRM. Weird pattern. Mostly South & West, which is strange because C/S is East! Not much at all to the North. However, their digital pattern(as well as KRDO's) is favorable to the North.

Can you pick up 46(53) KWHD in Castle Rock? Very favorable pattern for you. I've had it programmed before, but I've never turned my antenna in that direction to see if I can get it.
....jc

Yeah, looks like no KXRM, I get KDVR at 87% anyway, I was just lookin' for something close to 24-1 for testing.:rolleyes:

I get KWHD 53-1 at 82%. Not even sure where their transmitter is ;)

Where do you get the signal patterns from?

Wow, are you getting low power KRDO-ABD DT in Frederick? They are supposed to go high power in October. Or are they channel 24, I forget.

Don

I didn't even look for it. My goal was to pull in CBS and NBC. I'll check tonight though, as I am rather encouraged by the results from yesterday.

I get a few more points with the FM trap set to in. I haven't really done a frequency scan with and without the trap. I did notice a big difference when I adjusted the gain. My rig works the best when the gain is turned up most of the way.


yep, KRDO-DT is 24-1

I had the opposite effect; best results, low gain. This is leading me to believe that I do not need an amp at all, just the FM trap. The shopping list for this evening will be:

FM Trap
6 dB in line attenuator
RF adjustable attenuator

I also plan to look for the 24.1. Whose affiliate is that or is it an indie? Is there a more accurate list/site than Antennaweb for the Denver area stations?

I had the opposite effect; best results, low gain. This is leading me to believe that I do not need an amp at all, just the FM trap. The shopping list for this evening will be:

FM Trap
6 dB in line attenuator
RF adjustable attenuator

I also plan to look for the 24.1. Whose affiliate is that or is it an indie? Is there a more accurate list/site than Antennaweb for the Denver area stations?

KRDO-DT is 24-1 they're an ABC affiliate out of Colorado Springs. It might not show up in antenna web's Denver stations but it is definitely listed under CS zip codes. I doubt you'll have any luck as they are very low power. We probably won't even see them when they go high power, but my fingers are crossed.

I had the opposite effect; best results, low gain. This is leading me to believe that I do not need an amp at all, just the FM trap. The shopping list for this evening will be:
What type of Antenna do you have?

I also plan to look for the 24.1. Whose affiliate is that or is it an indie? Is there a more accurate list/site than Antennaweb for the Denver area stations?
Yes, this site (http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp) is the best that I've found.
....jc

What type of Antenna do you have?
....jc

Winegard GS 1000, it came with the D*TV upgrade package.

Thanks for the site info.

FM Trap
6 dB in line attenuator
RF adjustable attenuator
.
.
.
Winegard GS 1000, it came with the D*TV upgrade package.

I've never seen this antenna up close, but it's supposed to have a fixed -15db FM Trap.
....jc

Is anyone else getting lip synch issues on "Lost" (KMGH) in Dolby Digital 5.1?

It's really friggin annoying. Off by a second or so.
You'd think they could get all the HD bugs worked out BEFORE the biggest season opener. =\

Is anyone else getting lip synch issues on "Lost" (KMGH) in Dolby Digital 5.1?

No problems with the 5.1 on KABC via D* - must have been a local issue (go figure.)

It's there on Comcast, too.

Must be a KMGH problem (go figure) since both Comcast and OTA had lip synch problems.

I saw it on OTA but not on cable. Strange!

I noticed lip synch problems on KMGH throughout the evening via OTA.

5 days 'til the Boycott begins...

Maybe we weren't paying close enough attention, but we certainly didn't see any lip synch issues of up to a 1 second magnitude on Lost or Invasion. I did see that the Destination Lost lead-up show wasn't in HD for about the first half an hour, then suddenly jumped to HD. Someone asleep at the switch again I guess. We were watching KMGH via OTA via my LG LST-4200A receiver.

I've frequently noted some lip synch issues in DD5.1 on all of the local channels, but it is typically so slight that you have to study the speakers lips closely to even see that they aren't in perfect synch. I notice it more w/ my Dish 811 receiver than my LG receiver, so it could be somewhat receiver hardware related. Just my 2 cents.

I had the same ABC lip sync issues with a Samsung SIR-T451. No problems on other channels.

That's due to the audio coming from one end of the coat-hanger and the video coming from the other end. The coat-hanger is 1 1/2 foot wide so you can experience up to a 1 1/2 second advance/delay in the audio if your location is in-line with the coat-hanger.

I am joking, of course ;)

There was "LOST" Lip-sync problems on the Standard Def KMGH channel as well (mainly when they were PIP the Jet Blue landing). Talk about which show you don't want on when doing the PIP of plane problems. This was off of the D* feed.

# Matt

OT: That JetBlue video was amazing. What a great job those pilots did! Jetlag, were watching?

That same thing happened to UAL in November 2002, This can happen pretty easy if
the nose strut was assembled at the wrong clock angle. We will probably find out there was maintenance done on that strut a couple flights ago, and yes, Kudos to that crew, That landing was right on the centerline. I guess all the passengers were watching this on D* Jet Blue has a TV in every seat back.

They did an awesome job. My only question is why didn't they try landing at someplace safer? Like the dessert? Like Edwards, where the shuttle lands, just in case the wheels caught and veered off to the right into the terminal area?

At landing speeds the steering is done by the rudder, The nose wheel steering doesn't really become useful until slower speeds. The wheels being stuck at 90 deg was much better than say 20 deg. or so because hey could just start smoking and grinding the tires and wheels off.

I guess all the passengers were watching this on D* Jet Blue has a TV in every seat back.Initially they got more details from CNN through D* than they did from the cockpit announcements. Must have been surreal.

The crew turned off the D* feed right before they actually landed, though.

EASY! EASY!

A bunch of us on here only WISH we could complain about lip synch dd5.1 issues with KMGH. (if there is such a station)

They did an awesome job. My only question is why didn't they try landing at someplace safer? Like the dessert? Like Edwards, where the shuttle lands, just in case the wheels caught and veered off to the right into the terminal area?If LAX is like DIA, it's a LONG way from the landing strips to the terminal. They probably choose LAX because of the fire protection equipment and quick access to emergency medical services. I'm sure Edwards has this but maybe not to the same capacity. Plus, there could be security issues with landing a commerical passenger plan on a military base.

I've also noticed lip synch issues with ABC using a Samsung SIR-T451.
On a releated note, are you able to solidly and reliably lock KCNC (CBS) at 18.1 using your Samsung SIR-T451? I can't on mine and I've gone through three Samsung SIR-T451 receivers trying to get one that will. Comcast have even checked my feed and wiring. I don't have the same problem with the QAM tuner in my TV though so it seems to be a problem with the Samsung SIR-T451.

I've not had any noticeable problems with KCNC (CBS). I use a Antennas Direct DB2.
No preamplifiers or splitters.

If LAX is like DIA, it's a LONG way from the landing strips to the terminal. They probably choose LAX because of the fire protection equipment and quick access to emergency medical services. I'm sure Edwards has this but maybe not to the same capacity. Plus, there could be security issues with landing a commerical passenger plan on a military base.
The plane was flyable and the knew of the problem right after takeoff - they also had to fly around 3hrs to burn off fuel for the landing

Not really that big of a deal unless the strut would have sheared or collapsed. That would have required an evac which usually results in at least a couple of injuries. The crew did exactly what they should have. All entertainment systems are required to be turned off prior to landing, they did not do it just to keep the pax from watching themselves on TV.

Landing at a military base is pretty much dire emergency only without prior approval. Opens up a huge bag of worms and the military hates it. Will not be a fun day for the pax or crew. Even if faced with a gear-up landing I would choose a civilian airport any day. Emergency crews are trained to respond specifically to this, not always true with military installations due to their particular mission. LAX would also have been my first choice, great facilities and exceptionally well trained and equipped emergency personnel (bigger usually = better). I'm sure the runway was cleared quite expeditiously afterward.

Edwards lake bed would be a player with loss of controllability. Ex: total or almost total hydraulic failure. If your directional control was severely impaired with only thrust and manual pitch trim for control (think flt 292 the DC-10 into Sioux City years ago), you would want as big and safe of an expanse to land as possible as long as other malfunctions did not preclude getting there.

TheBert is correct about high-speed controllability, rudder at high speeds and NLG steering at low speeds. Differential braking and differential reverse thrust can also be used to keep the aircraft on the runway or to minimize divergence from center line. Many newer aircraft have NLG systems which limit max deflection as speed increases.

Wow! You think Jetlag's like a 'real' pilot or somethin' ;)

If anyone cares, Here's a link to what I think they will find on what happened to Jet Blue http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20021125X05520&ntsbno=CHI03IA027&akey=1

I think I misunderstood your setup with the 451. I was referring to problems locking KCNC-DT on channel 18.1 with the 451 connected to cable. I have no problems using OTA (except unable to get KMGH-DT). Have you tried using your 451 with basic cable?
No I haven't. I didn't know Comcast would let you recieve digital OTA through their
system without signing up for a digital package. I have their basic $14.00/month service.

Thats what I have now also from Comcast cable. If you connect your 451 to the cable outlet and do a scan you'll find a bunch of channels, including digital SD locals and also HD locals. But you'll need to dig through all of the crap to find them. For example, KCNC-DT is at 18.1 (for CBS HD) and others are at 89.x, 90.x and 91.x. Digital SD channels are at 81.x. Give it a try. I'm curious to know if your 451 will reliably lock KCNC-DT at 18.1. This approach will also provide you with KMGH-DT for ABC in HD at 89.1.
I will give it a try. I may not be able this weekend but I'll try sometime next week. Thanks for the info.

I must be reading this wrong...I'm putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with "comcast will give me ABC-HD for $14/mo." When you're desparate for MNF-HD your eyes play tricks on you. Somebody tell me I've interpreted this incorrectly.

I must be reading this wrong...I'm putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with "comcast will give me ABC-HD for $14/mo." When you're desparate for MNF-HD your eyes play tricks on you. Somebody tell me I've interpreted this incorrectly.No, you've got it right. FCC reg states that they must provide any OTA signals they rebroadcast (including DTV) in their lowest price package. They cannot require you to subscribe to "enhanced basic" or "digital cable" as a precondition for getting broadcast DTV channels, even though they use their digital cable infrastructure to retransmit broadcast DTV.

They CAN charge you rental on DTV decoder box or CableCard if you need them; with your own QAM-capable tuner you can avoid that charge.

They CAN require you to subscribe to "enhanced" or "digital" cable if you want more than just broadcast DTV channels. So if ESPNHD is a necessity (say you want to see MNF in high-defintion NEXT YEAR), your cojones are at their mercy.

Wow. Aka, my Hitachi doesn't have a HD tuner. Being the genius that I am I figured that with D* as a provider I didn't need one with a tuner. Doh! Not that it matters as I don't have cable in the house. Shoot, even the thought of letting Comcast in the door sends shivers down my spine. So for me I'd have to shell out for an install, basic, and a STB. That's not a show stopper, but I know that I couldn't watch Lost w/out a Tivo. I tried to watch some HD programming pre- HD Tivo and I just can't deal with real-time TV anymore. I could see going this route for MNF, playoff games and Jan 1. Of course all of this would be moot if KMGH WOULD GET IT TOGETHER. Serenity now, serenity now...

http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/ext/fast/commish/bccagenda.htm

It has been a long time coming. Finally, the end of LCGII hearings. What are the odds of a decision being postponed?

Don

Does anybody know where I might be able to find a Channel Master 3021 or comparable bowtie-style UHF antenna locally? Or maybe there's an extra in the closet somewhere? Reports in the coverage data thread indicate I may have a shot from my location (NW of Hampden/Havana) with an antenna like this instead of my RS yagi.

Hoping to do some late work to watch MNF in HD since the wife invited friends.

Does anybody know where I might be able to find a Channel Master 3021 or comparable bowtie-style UHF antenna locally?

Yes, on my roof! :D :p



Oh, you meant available localy to purchase, sorry.

They are hard if not impossible to find all the models locally. Try...

http://www.starkelectronic.com/

gakon, I would love to see my house to KMGH. Thanks!

Lat:
39.597087
39:35:49.513N
Lon:
-105.071892
105:04:18.811W

I would love to see my house to KMGH.

It looks like you probably would not be able to get KMGH, but stranger things have happened.

It looks like you probably would not be able to get KMGH, but stranger things have happened.
Bummer, that would explain why all my trips to the attic have been fruitless - looks like I'll need at least a 100 foot tower.

Thanks Gakon.

Say gakon,

Would you please run another one? Like dcpoppy I spent too much time in the attic chasing the white whale. It'd be interesting comparing my house/KMGH profile to CEB's (which I saw a few posts back).

Lat: 39d 51m 4.0s N
Long: 105d 05m 1.7s W

Thanks in advance,
AF

I have another question I will throw out.

Since CBS has announced their intention to convert the local news of their 35 O&O's to HD, has there been any kind of schedule when we would expect KCNC to debut local news HD?

Thanks,
Don

Wow gakon, those profiles are great!

You got me thinking, I had an old TOPO! laying around - somewhere.

I never had used the elevation profile option. Fantastic!

No wonder getting the elusive KMGH is so tricky. I'm in Bear Valley, halfway down the hill... I certainly knew the terrain was an issue, but to actually see it - cool!

Thanks!

Took a couple of tries to get it attached... I think. :o

It'd be interesting comparing my house/KMGH profile to CEB's
You've got a couple of high spots along the way to KMGH - one at 1.5 miles at Marshall and Kendall Streets, and another south of I-70 between Lowell and Federal at 5 - 6 miles. Your profile looks better than CEB's, but that's not necessarily good news, since it means that you'll probably be spending more time in the attic. Your azimuth to KMGH is 148.7 from true north, if that helps. Have you tired pointing the antenna down a little? What about towards the south? Maybe you can get a reflection off the hills between KMGH and CEB. ;)

(For all who are looking at the profiles - not just AF) I'll repeat what's been said before by people a lot more knowledgeable and experienced in antenna pointing than I am. This profile doesn't mean you can or can't get a certain signal. For the brief time I tried OTA, I was able to get KMGH using a set of rabbit ears inside my family room. I have a pretty good line of sight to KMGH, but I think others have said that its signal may be a lot stronger to the south than to the north. Even small variations in azimuth (CEB's line to KMGH is 130.2) may make all the difference. Good luck.

Some of the Ace Hardwares locally carry the CM 3021, as AKAStp said. That's where I got the one that I'm using.

I have another question I will throw out.

Since CBS has announced their intention to convert the local news of their 35 O&O's to HD, has there been any kind of schedule when we would expect KCNC to debut local news HD?

Thanks,
Don
As far as I know there's nothing public about KCNC yet. However, if the little birds I hear are to be believed, KCNC is at least a year away from local news in HD. :(

It's too bad - I much prefer the KCNC news team, but now that I've tasted local news in HD, I'm not going back to SD.

Some of the Ace Hardwares locally carry the CM 3021, as AKAStp said. That's where I got the one that I'm using.

Thanks Mark--I checked the one by my house at Hampden/Tamarac and they had nothing. Which one did you get yours at?

zeedave,
I found the CM 3021 at ACE haardware in Parker. You may want to check with the order desk at one of these stores also. I seem to recall that they could order similar screen and bowtie antennas with delivery to the store in less than a week.

Just a thought before tomorrows hearing (final blow to us).

If we wanted to get vocal, and get "some" print, there is a way. I am in no way affiliated with either local paper, but for those of you that get the Rocky Mountain news, you may have noticed that they have a "Sentinel" style addition/insert called yourhub. If someone "more talented at writing than me" were to write a nicely worded piece on how SCARE, JUDGE JACKSON, and the BCC are holding the entire front range hostage, we could get it posted on their web site, which then goes to print. I'd be glad to post it under my login, or maybe if each of us from each hub/city on yourhub did, the word would get out more.
Just a thought.

Well, it has been two years since our little hot dog fest on Lookout. What a strange wacky ride this has been. I'm looking forward to the post explosion tomorrow.

Don

Anyone going to be there?

You've got a couple of high spots along the way to KMGH - one at 1.5 miles at Marshall and Kendall Streets, and another south of I-70 between Lowell and Federal at 5 - 6 miles. Your profile looks better than CEB's, but that's not necessarily good news, since it means that you'll probably be spending more time in the attic. Your azimuth to KMGH is 148.7 from true north, if that helps. Have you tired pointing the antenna down a little? What about towards the south? Maybe you can get a reflection off the hills between KMGH and CEB.

I agree, try a down-tilt experiment with your antenna. Also try pointing 5, then 10 degrees to left and the right of your direct azimuth. Those RF signals bend and curve around objects and you just might find the "sweet spot". Take a look at a topographic map and see what those obstructions look like in the X-Z plane. If they are just small, round hills, the signal probably passes around one or both sides. Ridgelines are a lot tougher to deal with. It seems you have to be far enough back from them to let the signal recover and drop on down again, but not too far.

Gakon,
I've had really strong readings since day one w/ even a little set top, amplified antenna in getting KUSA, channel 16 (9-1) from Republic Plaza. If you don't mind, what does my topo profile look like from my house to RP?

Thanks,
CEB II

Phil,

I will be there. (Finally, a day off) Leonard, are you going?

Typical, Monday Night Football and the KMGH toy transmitter is down.

How much longer do we have to put up with this!!

Ah, nevermind! :(

Did KMGH's clothes hanger antenna fall down?
I can barely get the MNF signal... :mad:



:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

They mentioned at the end of the newscast that they were having trouble with their HD broadcast and were "working on it". It is amazing to me that on arguably the most watched night of the year in Denver on KMGH that they can't get it right.

getting a zero here to. Are the comcast subscribers able to receive it?

Yea, every other damn monday night game has been fine along with other HD shows. Tonight of all nights to have problems. Seems to me they are trying to send a message to all of us bitching about their tramsmitter all the time. The first thing we really care about & it's screwed up. Or is it just me.:D

Comcast subs have not been spared the misery either.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=584902

No signal on Comcast. Just the message "This channel should be available shortly."

Nice. They are now running a banner message stating that they are working on the problem. At least they are publicly recognizing the problem.

JMartinko, was it you that called them?;)

KMGH, you guys really are second rate.

I forgot how much watching football in SD sucks.

Jetlag, you're too kind...

WTF is up with KMGH lately? Monday night football here in the mile high city and they can't even produce an HD feed??? Someone's head needs to roll over there... :mad:

Back on now, but extremely juddery and the sound is bad, as though I am hearing the game through a big tube. I usually lock down in the 90's, now only 78-80 and lots of breakup.

ByH2O, you're right. KMGH sucks @ss.

Thats what I have now also from Comcast cable. If you connect your 451 to the cable outlet and do a scan you'll find a bunch of channels, including digital SD locals and also HD locals. But you'll need to dig through all of the crap to find them. For example, KCNC-DT is at 18.1 (for CBS HD) and others are at 89.x, 90.x and 91.x. Digital SD channels are at 81.x. Give it a try. I'm curious to know if your 451 will reliably lock KCNC-DT at 18.1. This approach will also provide you with KMGH-DT for ABC in HD at 89.1.
I tried it this evening. I too couldn't get a reliable lock on 18.1. Also instead of ABC in HD at 89.1 I was receiving the WB in HD. 90.1 was FOX, 91.1 was NBC.

Just in from KMGH:

"Well, it's halftime. Time to work on our HD equipment."

Maybe it's a reboot...

What does my topo profile look like from my house to RP?

Pretty good. I have the coordinates as 39° 44' 37"N and 104° 59' 18"W. Since the elevation at the top of RP is over 5900', you should have no problems getting any signal from there (well, if it was KMGH maybe you would). Remember that building height is not shown on the profile.

Thanks Mark--I checked the one by my house at Hampden/Tamarac and they had nothing. Which one did you get yours at?

That's the store that I got mine last summer.

Well I wish that I could be there tomorrow, as I was present for both of the previous votes of passage, but as I've been at my new job for just over a month taking a day off isn't really an option for me as of yet.

So, I'll be there in spirit, waiting with bated breath for reports from Ernie and the others who will be there. I hope that the result is the same as it has been the last two times we've been through this, but I don't have a very high confidence factor that the new commissioners will do what's right for anyone else except those that live on the mountain. Hope I'm wrong, though...

Phil,

I will be there. (Finally, a day off) Leonard, are you going?
I am planning to be there.

Nice. They are now running a banner message stating that they are working on the problem. At least they are publicly recognizing the problem.

JMartinko, was it you that called them?;)
Wasn't me that called, I pick up ABC HD from another source. Wouldn't have mattered to me anyway as I was at the game and just got home a few minutes ago.

HOW 'BOUT THEM BRONCOS! :D

Had a bunch of people over last night to watch the game, and of course KMGH's gerbil-powered HD broadcast goes down. Got a few glimpses of the game n HD, but otherwise had to watch in SD most of the game.

Could those morons over at KMGH screw up any worse? I wonder if this wasn't politically motivated to help get the new tower approved...

Ernie just reported in with the results of today's hearing...

LCGII is dead. The Jeffco BCC voted 2-1 against the application. I guess that the law only applies when it's convenient...

I'm stunned.

Golden is now dead to me.

What a disaster for the Bronco's game last night. I wonder if there was any national cognizance of the problem. We'd really look like a cow town if there was.

I'll bet the ABC network HD crew got a real laugh out of KMGH's digital coat hanger.

Since my lock on KMGH hangs by a thread, any interference pretty much wipes out my signal. I don't know what the actual problem was last night, but I actually started seeing some degradation of the KMGH signal last Saturday during a college game. More break-ups than normal. It was a little worse Sunday and pretty bad early Monday morning. As of this morning, my signal still isn't back to where it was last Friday. Unfortunately, on Friday and Sunday I was doing some system modifications and rewiring, so I paniced and thought the problem was of my doing. By the time the banner showed up on the screen during the game, I'd already made 5 trips into the attic trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I'm so PO'd about last night, I could just spit!

Ernie just reported in with the results of today's hearing...

LCGII is dead. The Jeffco BCC voted 2-1 against the application. I guess that the law only applies when it's convenient...

Wow! I guess I'll have to deal with the coat hanger for another 4 years!

Well maybe you guys should move to Albuquerque, NM where our TV stations are mostly full power and broadcasting HDTV execpt UPN! "But that may change in December when they drop USDTV's subchannels" :D

9-27-05

I rattled off a very upset letter to KMGH's General Manager for their pathetic HD broadcast last night and weak transmitter.

So if LCGII is really dead, what now?

Jack $hit til 2009? :mad:

Wow! I guess I'll have to deal with the coat hanger for another 4 years!

Well, if Congress ever gets their act together, it will be three years and three months to analog cutoff. No way does any tower get approved and built anywhere before that time, now that the permanent injunction will be in place on Lookout.

Oh by the way thanks for nothing, Judge Jackson. You succeeded in passing the buck. But we knew this was coming.

Don

I rattled off a very upset letter to KMGH's General Manager for their pathetic HD broadcast last night and weak transmitter.

So if LCGII is really dead, what now?

Jack $hit til 2009? :mad:

The only saving grace is that MNF is gone from ABC and their pathetic KMGH station after this season. I get NBC just fine OTA in HD. Screw Golden, and screw KMGH!

The Board did not ask any questions from any of the presenters today. Commissioner McCaskey was the sole vote in favor of the proposal. It appeared to me that the other 2 commissioners had their minds made up long before today. When the commissioners were polled, McCaskey explained that he voted yes due to how the judges order was written even though he may not agree with how it was written. The other 2 simply offered forceful NO votes without comment.

Maybe now pressure can be applied to KMGH through the FCC since KMGH's lawyer's will no longer be able to demostrate progress toward conversion to DTV by citing the LCGII tower effort.

The way I see it, the ball is clearly back in the court of the local broadcasters. That's not to say the their path might not still be through Federal courts.

I guess the law means nothing to the Commissioners. LCG laid out exactly what Judge Jackson required. LCG met every point of his requirement. And two out of three ignored it. Why have any laws at all, if they can just do whatever the hell they want. This is absurd.

I'm not sure if LCG can go to court and have this over-turned due to the commissioners not deciding on law, but on their pre-election promises to sCARE.

I just ordered my Boycott Golden T-shirt.

The decision (except for McCasky) had absolutely nothing to do related to the testimony that was given. LCG met every requirement needed related to single and cascading tower collapse. This includes that there are no occupied dwellings within the collapse area. Marv gave several myths as to why a lot of the opponents testimony was not factual. I didn't take notes, but I am sure Ernie will expand on this.

McCasky voted yes and explained why.
Auburn answered with an emphatic no with no explanation.
Congrove answered with an semi emphatic no with no explanation.

The use of the existing towers came up again and the bottom line is yes the broadcasters can use the existing towers with the same frequency they use today. One thing to note is 7 & 9 have already filed with the FCC (this includes channel 8 from the springs). As for 4 they still need to file with the FCC.

Obviously as was mentioned pages back, this deal was done back at election time. Why let the facts get in the way?

BTW, this is the first time I can remember a campaign promise being kept.

Can this be appealed higher, as on a state or federal level?

Jackson, Auburn and Congrove = The 3 Weasels (more accurately since they are spineless that would make them = slugs) Anyone got any salt handy?

Lets make sure the FCC is aware that KMGH will not be on the air with LCGII "in the very near future" as their lawyer had stated in his letter more than 12 months ago.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I guess the law means nothing to the Commissioners. LCG laid out exactly what Judge Jackson required. LCG met every point of his requirement. And two out of three ignored it. Why have any laws at all, if they can just do whatever the hell they want. This is absurd.

I'm not sure if LCG can go to court and have this over-turned due to the commissioners not deciding on law, but on their pre-election promises to sCARE.

I just ordered my Boycott Golden T-shirt.

I still put the blame on Judge Jackson. He in effect gave the legal authority to decide to the new BCCs in this matter. The BCCs were the law. Judge Jackson's authority to do whatever he wanted was transferred to the BCCs. And the BCCs are politicians period, we saw that today.

So Plan B is in place. Low power til Dec 31, 2008. Let's see what the FCC thinks of that KMGH. I hope KRDO's signal is strong enough to get to Denver next month when they go full power, but I'm not counting on it. I guess I have gotten used to not watching ABC, and that will have to continue.

Hey CEB II, I'm so mad I could spit.

Don

Another season of Lost in crappy SD.

Here's the lowlights.

County went first. They pretty much said that they agreed with LCG that it met all the requirements. And then added that EXCEL sent them a letter stating that the tower falling on their lines is a non-issued to them as their is no chance of fire as if the line breaks, the power gets cut off instantly and no fire danger.

Then sCARE goes and says the usual. If you let them build it, the world will end. Oh yeah, she also had to tie-in that the current hurricanes to be an issue too.

Next up was the City of Golden (which I am offically now Boycotting) The lawyer I have to say sounded and looked good, but didn't prove the 'facts' at all. (Obviously, that doesn't matter in these cases).

Then Marv Rockford got up and laid out every point of the Judge Jackson's order. LCG went through point-by-point with a 'real' structural tower engineer (opposed to sCARE's so-called experts, who not one was an actual structural engineer) He was awesome and said that there has NEVER been a tower collapse in history that has occurred the way sCARE says it would. The tower falling like a tree. NEVER. What more legal proof do you need? Weird Al saying, it would, gimme' a break.

Then LCG's top lawyer goes through the legal wording of Judge Jackson's injunction and shows how they have met each and every part. I thought the case was closed then. Done deal, there is no way they can vote no after that.

Time to vote, first Commissioner says Yes, I think to myself, they have to abide by the law, this is a no-brainer. Then I hear applause and didn't even hear the second Commish say no, I turn to Leonard to ask what did he vote and then the 3rd vote of No, and the place goes nuts with wild applause, I turn back to Leonard and by the time I look back up front, all the Commissioners where long gone.

I was (and still am) in total shock at the total disregard for the law and everything it stands for.
What a total sham.

Any one know when Judge Jackson is up for reconfirmation?

How about relection date for Auburn and Congrove?

Well, LCG has 80 acreas they can develop. Any one for a shopping mall on Lookout?

This is kind of OT, and I know there's Comcast, DirecTV and Dish threads, but how is HD reception from these sources?

by the time I look back up front, all the Commissioners where long gone. So, they voted and ran. That certainly says something.

Lets make sure the FCC is aware that KMGH will not be on the air with LCGII "in the very near future" as their lawyer had stated in his letter more than 12 months ago.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Jet, you are too kind. I just looked at the letter I received in response to my letter to the FCC. It was actually a letter to the FCC from KMGH's attorneys, which was CCd to everyone who wrote to the FCC complaining about KMGH. It is dated February 26, 2003. That is 31 months ago!

Maybe we should all write the FCC back, including that response and ask the FCC if they think 3 years with what amounts to no progress is consistent with these comments from H&K Law:
"We anticipate that Jefferson County will grant the necessary zoning this spring and construction of the proposed multi-user tower will commence as soon thereafter as is possible."
and
"In light of our belief that Jefferson County will shortly grant the Lake Cedar Group zoning application which will permit the construction of permanent full power facilities on Lookout Mountain, such an expenditure is not prudent."
As things stand now of course, I would postulate that KMGH/H&KA Law would use the following argument:
"In light of imminent mandated full switch to DTV in 2008, which will permit the use of our permanent full power facilities on Lookout Mountain, such an expenditure is not prudent."

Anyway, as far as JeffCo is concerned, I REALLY hope all LCG stations can get their analog channels back to use for DTV and just use their existing facilities.
Then <someone> could write an op-ed piece asking how Golden and JeffCo chose to stick with the status quo when they had a chance to get rid of 4 towers, plus the Double Doppler radar and other associated RF sources, and the addition of directional antennas.

I forgot to add (but Leonard did) that Marv pretty much threatened that if this was voted down that they would turn the existing towers into digital when they decided to. I did see the wicked witch scowl at that comment.

Rocky Mountain News story (http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4113254,00.html)

I did see the wicked witch scowl at that comment.

That would have been a great Kodak moment. The only one of the day, I'm afraid (also known as (s)cared).

Makes me wonder then if this ruling allows us to say that the Denver stations must grant waiver's to all the satellite providers for HD.

Well I checked last night and I get the Castle rock station strong so I am hoping as well to get Colorado Springs signal way up north :)

LCGII could file a new law suit claiming that the BCC erred in their decision today. This would not make sense as we have seen dealing with Jefferson officials now and was (Judge Jackson) a losing proposition.

If it was me I would go to the FCC and tell them we have presented to the local government a proposal that meets all requirements from A to Z and were turned down either by the local commissioners ( and why ) or a judge. Our intent was not for it to come to this, but unfortunately we are out of options.
We have also met the requirements you ask of us ( to work with the local government to work out a deal ) to convert from analog to digital.
I am referring to the NPRM that the FCC has in place for these situations.

A higher court may be an option just keep it out of Jefferson County.
Whatever happens needs to be soon. Three years seems like a long time unless the broadcasters would just as soon use the existing towers.

This is kind of OT, and I know there's Comcast, DirecTV and Dish threads, but how is HD reception from these sources?[/QUOTE]

E* HD looks pretty good if the program is filmed in HD through my 921 and 811, But the big problem with the satellite companys is no local channels in HD yet.

LCGII could file a new law suit claiming that the BCC erred in their decision today. This would not make sense as we have seen dealing with Jefferson officials now and was (Judge Jackson) a losing proposition.

If it was me I would go to the FCC and tell them we have presented to the local government a proposal that meets all requirements from A to Z and were turned down either by the local commissioners ( and why ) or a judge. Our intent was not for it to come to this, but unfortunately we are out of options.
We have also met the requirements you ask of us ( to work with the local government to work out a deal ) to convert from analog to digital.
I am referring to the NPRM that the FCC has in place for these situations.

A higher court may be an option just keep it out of Jefferson County.
Whatever happens needs to be soon. Three years seems like a long time unless the broadcasters would just as soon use the existing towers.

http://www.fcc.gov/statelocal/docs-lakecedar-pn.txt

Been there done that with that attorney named Hummers (go figure).

I do think there is another option for some or all of the LCG stations, and that is to put their digital transmitters on the Mt. Morrison tower (approved over 2 years ago). All of their other buildings and auxillary towers would probably have to stay on Lookout. I'm sure this isn't as convenient or cost-effective as Lookout.

We have heard previously that UPN 20 could add digital to their current Mt. Morrison installation right now (can anyone confirm that)?

I suspect the issue will head back to court instead, but I do think the stations need to go back and re-evaluate alternatives.

Mark

I hope KRDO's signal is strong enough to get to Denver next month when they go full power, but I'm not counting on it. Maybe this will work for folks in the south metro area, but they are the one's who can get KMGH now. I've tried getting KRDO's analog signal (which is already full power) and it's about 95% snow; doesn't seem too likely I'll be able to get a usable digital signal from them.

Well guys after following this thread for over 3 years I've had it. That is actually a relatively short period of time compared to some of you.

The more I think about todays decision, the more frustrated it makes me. I am now going to unsubscribe from this thread, I just don't feel like spinning my wheels anymore when the local elected government completely ignored the facts of this case and voted against it. I think it is abhorent and irresponsible of them, and I really don't feel like spending another moment when people (and I use that term loosely) like them can make the wrong decision and negatively affect my life for a significant length of time.

If anything earth-shattering occurs in the Denver DTV world, feel free to email or PM me, but for now I'm outta here.
See ya fellas!

I wrote a nice e-mail to the GM of KMGH. Here is my letter and his response:


Eric,
We are discussing our options. With this setback we are committed to
finding another solution to provide the best possible over the air
signal.
Darrell.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 11:43 AM
To: generalmanager@thedenverchannel.com
Subject: TheDenverChannel Feedback

I just read the news that the new tower has not been approved. What is
the plan for KMGH now?

Since I got my HDTV 2 years ago, I haven't watched hardly anything but
HD programming. Unfortunately, since I can't pick up KMGH with my
antenna, I haven't watched your channel since then (other than the
occasional episode of Jeopardy that my DirecTV Tivo thinks I'll like).

I've heard great things about some of the shows on ABC (Lost, etc.), but
with the limited amount of time that I'm able to spend watching TV, I'd
much rather watch something in HD. When will I be able to watch KMGH in
HD?

Thanks!


Sounds like they may be giving up on the LCG approach. ("another solution")

Been there done that with that attorney named Hummers (go figure).
I was not aware of that. I see that was 5+ years ago so where does it stand now? Maybe they were waiting to see what happened the 2nd time around.

I was not aware of that. I see that was 5+ years ago so where does it stand now? Maybe they were waiting to see what happened the 2nd time around.

That is correct. The lawsuit filed against Jeffco & this FCC petition were for LCG 1 which were dropped with the rollout of the LCG 2 proposal in the spring of 2002.

Now would be a good time for LCG to talk to the lawyers from the cell phone companies to learn how to appeal local zoning rules that negatively impact a greater population. The cell guys have had very good success arguing "greater good" when faced with local opposition to cell towers.

I was not aware of that. I see that was 5+ years ago so where does it stand now? Maybe they were waiting to see what happened the 2nd time around.

The old suit (relating to the original 1999 tower proposal) was withdrawn when LCG started to work with the county on LCGII, which was supposed to address all of the issues.

Mark

LCGII, which was supposed to address all of the issues.
You mean "which did address all of the issues"

I do think there is another option for some or all of the LCG stations, and that is to put their digital transmitters on the Mt. Morrison tower (approved over 2 years ago). All of their other buildings and auxillary towers would probably have to stay on Lookout. I'm sure this isn't as convenient or cost-effective as Lookout.Mark, not likely as they are only a few years away from changing Lookout to DTV. Why spend the money? And keep spending the money for rent.

I think the next steps are (And of course, I'm not a television expert... wait, I kinda' am) could be:
- State Court Appeal (Likely)
- FCC Stepping in (Possible)
- Nothing and wait until 2009 (Most Likely)

2009 is a long time away, but I'm sure they'll be more legal wrangling over the 'same-service' issue. The only good thing is, the stations would hit the air before sCARE could stop them. And it's much more unlikely a Judge would pull them all off the air and leave the entire front range 'in-the-dark'.

Now would be a good time for LCG to talk to the lawyers from the cell phone companies to learn how to appeal local zoning rules that negatively impact a greater population.Even if they did go through the legal motions to try this, it would take a couple of years and then more time to build the tower. Almost to 2009 anyway.

Now would be a good time for LCG to talk to the lawyers from the cell phone companies to learn how to appeal local zoning rules that negatively impact a greater population. The cell guys have had very good success arguing "greater good" when faced with local opposition to cell towers.

About 10 years ago by boss at the time was paid $30,000 a year with a ten year contract to have cell tower placed on his land. Money Talks.

Another reason the cell guys might have more luck is almost everyone has a cell phone, Not as many people have HDTVs, and allot of them probably think there watching HD when there not.

As for Auburn and Congrove I think the tone of their voices was very arrogant along with being very unprofessional for elected officials and then they can't even be man enough to say why they voted no. Auburn was the most vocal of the two.
Anyway thanks McCasky for seeing things the way they really are.

One thing for sure if the broadcasters end up using the existing towers they shouldn't be held responsible should a cascading tower collapse in the future.

A first for me the first entry on a new page.

gakon, I would love to see my house to Republic Plaza. Thanks!

Lat:
40.138146N
Long:
-105.152591W

# Matt

M
- Nothing and wait until 2009 (Most Likely)

Agree. If I'm one of the stations, my strategy would be as follows:
a) apply to the FCC to keep my current frequency. Already done, except for KCNC.
b) don't ask Jeffco's permission for anything. Just switch the feed on 1/1/09.
c) let them try to sue you on the 'same service' issue after the analog shutoff. At that point you'll get regional and state officials stepping in to overrule Jeffco.

Today's decision is certainly disappointing. Since I live in a condo and can't have an antenna outside in a location that works (already went to battle with the HOA on it,) this means I'll have to remain a slave to the "Cable Pig" until D* adds digital locals. Then I'll be their b**ch for several more years.

I wish our major network stations would become more creative with options, like our Fox & WB affiliates have. The majors have been backing LCG and relying on the downtown "coathangers" for so long that they seem blind to any other options. I can get strong reception of not just one, but *2* Fox signals with an indoor Silver Sensor. Likewise WB comes in great also. But NBC, CBS, or ABC? Not a chance.

sCARE should pay our cable bills for us. I'm sure their home values have gone up enough to cover the cost :rolleyes:

According to the FCC, all long distance SAT waivers are automatically granted next July 1 (2006) to those that cannot receive OTA from a full power station in the top 25 (50?) markets. Are the locals willing to loose all of these folks?

# Matt

According to the FCC, all long distance SAT waivers are automatically granted next July 1 (2006) to those that cannot receive OTA from a full power station in the top 25 (50?) markets. Are the locals willing to loose all of these folks?

# Matt

Maybe F2 will launch by then. HD LiL will make the waivers moot.

Agree. If I'm one of the stations, my strategy would be as follows:
a) apply to the FCC to keep my current frequency. Already done, except for KCNC.
b) don't ask Jeffco's permission for anything. Just switch the feed on 1/1/09.
c) let them try to sue you on the 'same service' issue after the analog shutoff. At that point you'll get regional and state officials stepping in to overrule Jeffco.

Absolutely.

I was looking at Ernie's DTV Timeline. The Mt. Morrison tower was approved on 2/4/2003. And CARE's appeal was denied on 3/9/04. As of yet, apart from some road work, I don't think anything has been done on-site (nothing that I can see). 1.5 years from final go-ahead with no significant progress.

If I owned an LCG station, I'd be thinking that even if we could win another court case in state court or something, there would inevitably be another CARE lawsuit. So count on at least 2 court hearings. That itself would seem to put anything out 1.5-2 years. It's only 3 years until the 12/31/2008 date. based on the Mt. Morrison progress, it would be difficult to get a tower built any time BEFORE that date. So why go to the expense? And pay for monitoring? And pay to dismantle the old equipment? And all of the other expenses that the stations agreed to as part of the LCG II agreement. I'd want do exactly what Oxo states. By far the least expensive. We'll see.

Absolutely.

I was looking at Ernie's DTV Timeline. The Mt. Morrison tower was approved on 2/4/2003. And CARE's appeal was denied on 3/9/04. As of yet, apart from some road work, I don't think anything has been done on-site (nothing that I can see). 1.5 years from final go-ahead with no significant progress.

If I owned an LCG station, I'd be thinking that even if we could win another court case in state court or something, there would inevitably be another CARE lawsuit. So count on at least 2 court hearings. That itself would seem to put anything out 1.5-2 years. It's only 3 years until the 12/31/2008 date. based on the Mt. Morrison progress, it would be difficult to get a tower built any time BEFORE that date. So why go to the expense? And pay for monitoring? And pay to dismantle the old equipment? And all of the other expenses that the stations agreed to as part of the LCG II agreement. I'd want do exactly what Oxo states. By far the least expensive. We'll see.

I also agree. The stations win with the budget, staying low power til 12/31/08. Forget monitoring, (s)care doesn't want it. Use the current towers, switch to digital, and radiate away up to the FCC limits.

On the bright side, maybe KMGH will do something with their low-power setup. Even though they've successfully pulled off the "we'll be high power from Lookout any day now" for over 4 years now, it seems like they'll have to acknowledge that they won't be full power until 1/1/09. Then again, maybe Hummers can tell the FCC that 3 years really is "any day now".

I also wonder if this means KTVD will sit on the sidelines until 2009.

It's been interesting reading all of the conjecture on the posts today after JeffCo did what everyone really expected.

Fact: KCNC, KMGH, and KUSA have not met the now long passed FCC mandate for full power. They are in a bind. They will not meet the June 2006 mandate either even though it technically doesn't apply to them. They risk losing their exclusive signal coverage areas without interference from other stations. And by virtue of analog shutdown and no full power facilities in place, that will occur, by default. Does that mean some upstart can build a station on the rock in Castle Rock and beam a signal north? Does it mean that KUPN, which has requested moving its transmitter to cover most of Denver with a digital signal, can become an ABC affiliate? Can an upstart add a transmitter to LeSea's tower (DT46) and do the same thing? KGWN (CBS Cheyenne) could also request an increase to its full power of 630 kW and probably get into at least the northern part of Denver if it went up to 1 mW. As I said, KCNC, KMGH, and KUSA are in a bind.

Fact: The DT channels the stations elected as their finals have nothing to do with this situation. KMGH and KUSA are in the same boat as KCNC. They all have to do some construction/modification of their existing facilities if they want to use them for DT. That will require building permits.

Fact: Well, maybe almost a fact. sCARE's motive wasn't to just win the current legal battle. As has been posted, standing alone, winning today makes no sense since the other towers are still on the hill. But one must look beyond today. sCARE has an overall agenda, and today was just round one. The building permits, mentioned in the preceding "fact", will face the same approval road that culminated with JeffCo's action today. Their ultimate agenda is NO towers. And I think, unfortunately, they are on the road to success.

What's going to happen next? Who knows? But, somewhat echoing the feelings of JetLag, putting odds on them serves no constructive purpose. All that is certain is that the next move is up to the affected stations and LCG II.

Finally, thought you might find it interesting that McGraw-Hill owns 3 other TV stations - KGTV in San Diego, KERO in Bakersfield, and WRTV in Indianapolis. All of these stations are at DT full power. Apparently, McGraw-Hill is somewhat laissez-faire regarding the managment of KMGH. But, of course, that's merely conjecture.

Fact: The DT channels the stations elected as their finals have nothing to do with this situation. KMGH and KUSA are in the same boat as KCNC. They all have to do some construction/modification of their existing facilities if they want to use them for DT. That will require building permits.
From what we've heard, no permits are required to swap out equipment inside their buildings.

Maybe this will work for folks in the south metro area, but they are the one's who can get KMGH now. I've tried getting KRDO's analog signal (which is already full power) and it's about 95% snow; doesn't seem too likely I'll be able to get a usable digital signal from them.

What channel number is KRDO's analog signal on?

This is really OT, but i was looking at the people from NM complaining about USDTV. It seems their CBS affiliate was just purchased by one of the groups that invested in USDTV, and they are concerned that they may lose HD (or at least quality) to allow for 1 or more USDTV channels.

Now, before anyone gets the wrong idea, I think USDTV (in general) is a VERY bad idea. As is multicasting in general.

I would, however, be interested in the ability to have a receiver that would let me pay, a small fee (each) to receive a subscription subchannel of Altitude and/or FSN. But ONLY with the following restiction. It seems like it would be OK if they used bandwidth from LP digital stations that really have no need of the bandwidth because the content they are showing is all SD and does not have high PQ anyway (like KDEN, DRMT, KWHD -- or any of the plethora of shopping networks I get via analog -- I think I get about 5 of them).

I mean, it seems like a win/win for these LP stations who (it would seem) would have a hard time building out for a transition. They could get some $$ from Altitude or FSN (or whoever) for a sub-channel. And Altitude and FSN could increase viewership without harming agreements with MSOs. And trust me, you really don't need to see that <HSN GADGET> at HD res on that shopping channel. I'm sure KDEN for example could send their signal on about 3 Mb and it wouldn't look any worse than now (to be fair, I haven't seen thier digital signal in over a year. Do they still have one? Is it bette than before? The old one had snow like a bad analog reception! It had to be in the source). Heck, Altitude could do a (KMGH quality) 720p feed on a subchannel from them.

dr_mal - I don't think the swap out only involves equipment inside buildings, but I may be wrong. Perhaps someone with some knowledge about this can post.

CEB II - KRDO is analog 13, digital 24.

gkanders,

Great idea. The last time I was channel surfing, KDEN's digital signal was borderline terrible. And the sound blasted at a db level way above the other stations.

CEB II - KRDO is analog 13, digital 24.

Analog 13. It would be near impossible to get a test of their analog signal up here given the immediately adjacent KBDI channel 12 and the channel 14 mexican game show station. Not that Arvada would have anywhere near a LOS shot at their tower anyway.

I guess I'll wait until they go full power on 24 and see if I can get a wiff of their signal.

Analog 13. It would be near impossible to get a test of their analog signal up here given the immediately adjacent KBDI channel 12 and the channel 14 mexican game show station.

Channel 14 wouldn't interfere, since it's on UHF rather than VHF.

Here are the frequencies for them:

12 204-210 Mhz
13 210-216 Mhz
14 470-476 Mhz

Channel 14 wouldn't interfere, since it's on UHF rather than VHF.

Here are the frequencies for them:

12 204-210 Mhz
13 210-216 Mhz
14 470-476 Mhz

Thanks. I forgot about the frequency break between high VHF and low UHF.

The last time I was channel surfing, KDEN's digital signal was borderline terrible..Yep. I think they must use a handicam pointed at a TV monitor as the source for their "digital" signal.

As for the equipment on Lookout Mountain, I don't see why the stations would need any external modifications to broadcast digital instead of analog on the same frequency and same coverage pattern. It's just RF at that point.

how is HD reception from these sources?
Comcast reception is fine. No compression through them. They haven't added any of the available HD channels in a while (TNT, Universal). Supposedly there are bandwidth issues.

Not that Arvada would have anywhere near a LOS shot at their tower anyway.
I'll try to run this profile tonight. I ran one for sunshinedawg a few pages back (post 12172) that showed he almost had line of sight from Longmont. You may have more problems with the foothills, but I'll see.

mattn6 - I will try to get to yours tonight, too.

dr_mal - I don't think the swap out only involves equipment inside buildings, but I may be wrong. Perhaps someone with some knowledge about this can post.
I Am Not A Broadcast Engineer but AFAIK, they would only need to make tower/transmitter modifications if they wanted to transmit on a different channel. If they petition the FCC to keep their current analog channel for digital transmission, they should only need to do work inside their buildings.

Like others have pointed out, sCARE believes that TV (ATSC) is not equal to TV (NTSC), so they'll try to get the county to specifially disallow the swap.

Hey sCARE - I hope you like those old ugly towers. You've got them now for a long, long, time.

Gakon - Thanks.

I think the next steps are (And of course, I'm not a television expert... wait, I kinda' am) could be:
- State Court Appeal (Likely)
- FCC Stepping in (Possible)
- Nothing and wait until 2009 (Most Likely)

Even if they did go through the legal motions to try this, it would take a couple of years and then more time to build the tower. Almost to 2009 anyway.

I would have to agree with this assesment. Think about the likely staggering amount of money that the 4 LCG stations have spent on Legal and Engineering expenses alone, with ,as of this morning, NOTHING to show for it.

Add to that fact that two of those stations, KUSA and KCNC, are also paying a pretty penny in rent to Republic Plaza for their low-power operations that they never really wanted to have to build and maintain in the first place. If I'm running either one of those stations, I think today would cause me to give up and cut my financial losses, and just wait until '09 then convert my existing tower.

KTVD and KMGH on the other hand, are the real questions if KUSA and KCNC have had enough. I believe it was posted here a while back that KTVD is building a low-power facility on Republic Plaza as well. While this will be great, would they convert their Mt. Morrison facility in the long term for full power?

KMGH is the real question mark. Sadly, I think they'll just stick with their joke transmitter on their roof all the way until the bitter end when they convert their existing tower on Lookout Mtn.

After last night's 'digital disaster' during MNF, I think it shows that KMGH was really hoping LCG would solve a bunch of problems for them, as it's now fairly obvious they are a little short handed on competent engineers. (incidentally, I assume they are still trying to fix the mess they made last night, as DT 17 is currently off-the-air, as it has been most of the day)

All in all, Jefferson County residents should be ashamed to have elected two of these gentlemen to be their commissioners.
:mad:

Both my TV and Media Center no longer get a signal from ABC...

I see from previous posts people where experiencing issues during the football - and so was I (drop outs and the like) but now it seems to completely dead..?

Does anyone have an ETA for them fixing this? New season of Alias... and Lost etc etc all of which will suck in SD....

Rob

dr_mal - I don't think the swap out only involves equipment inside buildings, but I may be wrong. Perhaps someone with some knowledge about this can post.


Ernie correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Marv say that if they use the existing towers and the same frequencies the only changes required are inside the equipment buildings. If this is the case would a building permit be required?

The problem is it doesn't matter how good their case is ( I am sure they will have a very good case) the commissioners have the final say and the way I see it, if they vote against the tower their decision will not be based on this narrow issue even though they will try and make it look like that way. If you remember right their election campaign was no new tower. I know most campaign promises usually are not kept, but wouldn't put this one in that category.
In fact I would think LCG could also file a law suit based on these campaign statements if they vote it down.
Also it has drawn out so long now and if it is voted down I hope for one of two things to happen convert the analog towers to digital or get the FCC involved.

Just redisplaying an entry I made back on 5-10-05.

All in all, Jefferson County residents should be ashamed to have elected two of these gentlemen to be their commissioners.

You did you say gentlemen. They don't fit any definition I could for a gentleman.

Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_3066848) article.
Here are two paragraphs of interest.
District Court Judge Brooke Jackson will review today's board decision in light of documents and testimony submitted over the three months to determine if it meets his directive. Then Jackson will decide whether to issue a permanent injunction prohibiting tower construction.

If any party is dissatisfied with Jackson's final order, the case can be taken to the Colorado Court of Appeals.

All in all, Jefferson County residents should be ashamed to have elected two of these gentlemen to be their commissioners.
:mad:

As a Jefferson County resident, I don't feel ashamed. I do feel that two commissioners did what they wanted to do despite the facts. I don't feel represented. I do feel disgusted.

Not ashamed though.

You did you say gentlemen. They don't fit any definition I could for a gentleman.


As a Jefferson County resident, I don't feel ashamed. I do feel that two commissioners did what they wanted to do despite the facts. I don't feel represented. I do feel disgusted.

Not ashamed though.

On both counts, I stand corrected. They most certainly are not gentlemen, and disgust is a much more appropriate emotion than being ashamed.

I do know two commissioners who should be ashamed though...

Ooh, top of the page! Still doesn't help me feel better about what happened today. Hard to believe I've been reading this thread, seeing the same old crap for 4 years now...

I take it that ABC in Denver decided they don't need to broadcast HD anymore? I got tired of waiting for the tower issue to get resolved so I have crapcast cable. It isn't fit to have if you can't watch Monday Night Football in HD. What the frack is going on? I know the owners of the ABC affiliate in Denver don't give a crap about HD. The photo's on top of there roof spell it out. But they can't even commit to delivering it over cable.

On another note.
Its too bad we have a complete and total sissy for a Governor. A real one would put a stop to the selfish communists that live in Jefferson County under the name of national security and the need to give the analog spectrum to our fire and emergancy workers. He is such a coward. This whole thing could be put to bed and we would have full HD in 18 months. I am writing some letters to Governor Sissy as we speak. He is putting Colorado Families at risk because he was bourne without a back bone. Do we have to have a disaster in Colorado like Katrina to get this done?

Does anyone else see how ludicrouse this is? I mean if you don't want to live by TV towers, why did all the communists that live in Jefferson County build their homes by TV towers? I can't beleive this has gone on this long.

Anyway, back to writing my letters to the idiot, Owens.

I just posted on the Houston OTA thread asking Bob Chase to post on this thread regarding his opinion on what modifications are needed to flash cut from analog to digital - i.e., a building permit. If you are interested, my post is #1225.

Mike,
I read your Houston post and a good point I hadn't thought of was not so much about the tower and antenna, but ancillary equipment. Like an HD link from downtown to the tower. Not sure they can use the existing microwave dishes. I would think so as the electronics are all inside the building, not outside.

And Leonard, Marv did state they could and would do the change out. It was kind of his sutble threat to the Commissioners.

And after reading the Post story, Judge Jackson might just look at all the testimony and rule Yes anyway. The facts all point to Yes. Now, wouldn't that be fun! I'll email Pete and ask when that hearing might be.

It seems to me that LCGII should pursue the legal avenues and let Judge Jackson decide if the BCC met his requirements. Then take it to a higher court (if necessary). I would also suspect the stations will ask (again) for the FCC to preempt the decision. If the FCC were to do this it would surely result in more court battles but it would continue to appease the FCC as far as their situation is concerned and would probably be as cheap as formulating some other alternative plan. I also suspect that all the stations will ask the FCC to stay on their current channels if they won't preempt the decision. The stations have absolutely no intention of going anywhere else, nor should they. If they do stay on their current channels they shouldn't have to tinker around with their towers - just inside stuff (like modulators) will need changing but the antennas should be fine. I suspect their existing STL's will work fine. But they will have to overcome the same service obstacle since another brain dead JeffCo judge sided with the scarecrows and ruled that ATSC and NTSC is not the same service.

/rant mode on/
This is only one minor bump is what is becoming a major issue in this country. The interests of a few are affecting the interests of the many. When the hell was the last oil refinery built? We send every ounce of Alaskan oil to overseas (Japan) because we do not have a refinery that can refine it because no one wants one in their backyard. Power plants and trash dumps are also next to impossible to get built. No one wants them, yet everyone needs them. It takes up to 10 years to get the necessary permits and that is if you are lucky (successful). Think of how much this costs everyone in the interim. Just remember this...no one here would be bitching about this is we lived on the gulf coast. This is ugly but nowhere near as ugly as what happened to those folks and nowhere near as costly as what we'll all be paying to rebuild a city that should not be rebuilt (as it was).

/end of rant/

Welcome to the club Jetlag....you finally hit the wall like me and JM and a few others.

A funny thought just hit me...
With all the money spent by LCG, they could have done the 'switch-out' already and bought a DTV receiver for every home still watching analog TV in the entire front range! ;)

mattn6 - your profile to Republic Plaza doesn't look great, but remember that the top of the building is over 700' above ground, and the antenna is even higher. So you should have a shot.

CEB II - there appear to be a lot of obstructions. Blodgett Peak and a number of unnamed ridges block your view, and I don't think KRDO's tower is tall enough to provide a clear line of sight. Like everything else, once they go full power it can't hurt to try, although you may need more than an antenna on the top of your TV (even if it is amplified).

I do think there is another option for some or all of the LCG stations, and that is to put their digital transmitters on the Mt. Morrison tower (approved over 2 years ago). All of their other buildings and auxillary towers would probably have to stay on Lookout. I'm sure this isn't as convenient or cost-effective as Lookout.
Mt. Morrison means no digital signals for anyone in Louisville/Boulder and large sections of Broomfield and Arvada; we're all shadowed by the foothills.

The best thing that LCG could do is.........
First, all broadcasters should discontinue their programming feeds to DirecTV, DISH Network, and Cable, and replace them with a loop, giving their side of the situation.

Then, they should simply shut down every one of their transmitters for a few days.

Then, put up billboards and buy newspaper and (AM) radio ads, explaining how politics are going to deprive everyone in the Denver area of TV and FM radio.

The OTHER SIDE has been playing hardball long enough. It's time the stations FIGHT BACK.

Edit: I forgot to add.....revoke ALL network waivers immediately, so people have no where else to turn. Like I said, show 'em what the crystal ball says. Play hard ball.

The best thing that LCG could do is.........
First, all broadcasters should discontinue their programming feeds to DirecTV, DISH Network, and Cable, and replace them with a loop, giving their side of the situation.

Then, they should simply shut down every one of their transmitters for a few days.

Then, put up billboards and buy newspaper and (AM) radio ads, explaining how politics are going to deprive everyone in the Denver area of TV and FM radio.

The OTHER SIDE has been playing hardball long enough. It's time the stations FIGHT BACK.

Edit: I forgot to add.....revoke ALL network waivers immediately, so people have no where else to turn. Like I said, show 'em what the crystal ball says. Play hard ball.Good ideas...I agree.

I've advocated this before...

Shutdown everything, and show the WHOLE metro Denver area what's at stake.

Do it for a whole week (right before the next Jefferson county commission meeting) - you will have a riot on your hands.

Edit - I think showing news / EAS type stuff SHOULD still get aired normally under this plan.

Its too bad we have a complete and total sissy for a Governor. A real one would put a stop to the selfish communists that live in Jefferson County under the name of national security and the need to give the analog spectrum to our fire and emergancy workers. .Neither the governor nor the legislature are going to step into a local zoning dispute unless it's a crisis. Providing free HDTV service to a few thousand of us (who could afford to get cable if we really wanted it) is not such a crisis.

When analog shutoff time comes and the existing towers are the only option for continued broadcast, THEN it will be a crisis. If Jeffco tries to pull the 'different service' b***s**t to prevent the stations from switching their feeds, somebody is going to slap them down - might be the governor. the legsislature, or even the FCC.

mattn6 - your profile to Republic Plaza doesn't look great, but remember that the top of the building is over 700' above ground, and the antenna is even higher. So you should have a shot.

I think the height of the building is a huge factor. I get the RP signals at a strength of 75-80. I don't think me and mattn6 are very far from each other, but I do remember some other people having trouble in East Longmont with interference of some sort.

As a Jefferson County resident, I don't feel ashamed. I do feel that two commissioners did what they wanted to do despite the facts. I don't feel represented. I do feel disgusted.

Not ashamed though.

I've lived in JeffCo for a dozen years now and I'm ashamed for my county as it has become a state and national embarrassment.

Remember the pride you felt in your home area when the Broncos won the SB or, to a lesser degree, when KUSA became a national leader in HD adoption w/ all local news in HD and the HD chopper? Well, take that pride to the other end of the scale and that's where I am w/ JeffCo right now. It seems this area just can't grow out of its "cow town" roots and join the 21st century.

If I actually lived in Golden, I think I'd be looking at a move.

CEB II - there appear to be a lot of obstructions. Blodgett Peak and a number of unnamed ridges block your view, and I don't think KRDO's tower is tall enough to provide a clear line of sight. Like everything else, once they go full power it can't hurt to try, although you may need more than an antenna on the top of your TV (even if it is amplified).

Thanks for the analysis Gakon. Actually, I think I might have a shot if KRDO's full power DTV sends a strong signal in my direction. Otherwise, no joy, even w/ the monster XG91 in my attic.

...Shutdown everything, and show the WHOLE metro Denver area what's at stake...

Maybe LGCII could simply offer to protect the citizens of JeffCo by jamming their signals in the immediate area of Lookout Mountain. :rolleyes:

But they will have to overcome the same service obstacle since another brain dead JeffCo judge sided with the scarecrows and ruled that ATSC and NTSC is not the same service.

Over-turning that prior ruling should be a slam-dunk in Federal court under the provisions of the Telecommunications Act. Of course, with our current judicial system, many judges just "make it up as they go along", so nothing is certain.

BTW, KMGH-DT, channel 17 is still a disaster as of this morning. When are they going to get their act together. The fiasco for MNF apparently had some national affects as I've read comments about HD viewing problems in other major DMAs in other forums. Mooooo! I'm just getting in the spirit of being a real cow town.

Maybe LGCII could simply offer to protect the citizens of JeffCo by jamming their signals in the immediate area of Lookout Mountain.KWGN kinda' does that now. With their new HD directional antenna, I can't get a whiff of their 500,000 watt signal. Even at about 3 miles away behind the tower.

So, if anything, I hope they do stick with the their old, omni-directional antennas!

I just read the Rocky Mountain News (http://www.insidedenver.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4114933,00.html) article on the BCC decision. The following makes it sound like nobody really knows what the decision means:

Tim Carl, the county's director of Planning and Development, said Tuesday's decision does not change a decision by former commissioners to approve the rezoning proposal.

What you see below is from the CARE we site. Go figure.

Auburn-deny rezoning because setback resolution violated
Congrove-deny rezoning because setback resolution violated
McCaskey-approve rezoning because setback resolution met by LCG

It be interesting to see the look on all the sCarey faces in 2009 when the existing towers are still there, still "radiating" Lookout Mountain with their omni-directional antennas, still "depressing" the property value, still "threating" residents in the event of a tower collaspe. This has to be one of the all time great soap operas!

Gotta' buy me one of those T-shirts.

I think the height of the building is a huge factor. I get the RP signals at a strength of 75-80. I don't think me and mattn6 are very far from each other, but I do remember some other people having trouble in East Longmont with interference of some sort.

I'm in east Longmont and only have issues with KCNC. KUSA is always steady althought the signal bounces from 70-80, while KCNC goes from 60-70. Might be interesting to see tha map to RP from my place. Gakon, if you can do this it would be greatly appreciated.

40.161105
-105.032069

FWIW, I'm using an unaplified CM 4228 on a 20ft. mast.

For the heck of it I sent an email to KUSA asking what their plans might be. Here is the reply from Don Perez:

"Thank you for your note. I would not assume Lookout is officially dead. There are a number of options and these are being reviewed further. Again, thank you for the note."

Nice of him to answer. I imagine they are as frustrated as most of us are.

Last night 9 news said that a Judge has three months to make the decision final, Does this mean the judge will make the final yes or no decision or would he send it back to the BCC again?

I did leave the hearing with a better understanding how towers collapse. The opponent claimed they fall like a trees where as the LCGII's certified tower expert stated they collapse on themselves. Both are correct the difference is whether or not the tower has a single guy versus multiple guy wires. Now I understand how they came up 80, 100 and 110% fall radius.

Yes, but he did say that there was not one tower collapse on record that fell like a tree with multiple guy wires. That is the fact that Judge Jackson must rule on.

No lawyer can get an expert to say "yes, it might be possible", that would open the door, but it's never happened!

Does this mean the judge will make the final yes or no decision or would he send it back to the BCC again?
Every time it has been sent back to the BCC is because they erred in their decision. I would think by now he had enough and besides whats left that he could possibly send it back for.
Myself I believe the BCC may have erred once again. A legal person spoke during LCGII's rebuttal. He stated that the judges remand was to address a concern as to whether any nearby residents would be in danger if there was a tower or cascading tower failure. Now the BCC allowed a significant amount testimony related to towers collapsing on the power lines. Deb in her testimony cited a case in Boulder where a dead tree fell on power lines causing a wild fire. She was very forceful and several minutes was spent on this. Several other people including the attorney for Golden testified that there was a fire danger should a tower wipe out a power line. The BBC even had staff contact XCEL to see if they had any concerns. They did not, but did mention that if a wire was to break power would be shut off in less than a minute.
If this is true ( a power line is not a residence ) and is outside of the scope of why it was remanded back to them then surely you could say it influenced their decision and that they definitely erred in their decision.

Yes, but he did say that there was not one tower collapse on record that fell like a tree with multiple guy wires. That is the fact that Judge Jackson must rule on.

No lawyer can get an expert to say "yes, it might be possible", that would open the door, but it's never happened!
Now I wish I would have taken a closer look at there model to see if their towers had multiple guy wire. I don't think so, but don't know for sure. When they showed the towers falling it was definitely like a tree and if I remember right they only disconnected one guy wire. If true just another case of not presenting a true representation of the way things really are.

This sucks.

My company is having a happy hour tomorrow after work to celebrate a recent software release. The party's in Golden :(

I had to respectfully decline the invitation. Now sCARE/Golden has not only cost me ABC-HD (such as it is these days) but also a party tomorrow night :mad:

BTW - if you're unsure where the Golden city boundaries are (for boycott purposes), here's a PDF map (http://www.ci.golden.co.us/files/citylimits.pdf) with city boundaries marked.

I'll keep a printout of this in my cubicle - since my office is right on the Lakewood/Golden border, I need to be aware of which direction I go for lunch every day.

Mt. Morrison means no digital signals for anyone in Louisville/Boulder and large sections of Broomfield and Arvada; we're all shadowed by the foothills.

I think you may be getting Morrison mixed up with Squaw. Does Morrison have these issues also? Can you get UPN20 analog now? They are on Morrison. KBDI-12 is on Squaw, and I know it had shadowing issues similar to what you described (before they added some translators).

Mark

dr_mal
Thanks for this map. I'm printing it out now.

Do you know if the Home Depot, Kohls, PetsMart at Colfax and 6th Ave are part of Golden? I can't tell from the map. I may have to give them a call.

I've always found it interesting that the Coors complex is NOT part of Golden.

Hey guys, Bronco game Monday night, Avs/Detroit last night. Fun and busy week. Haven't been reading here lately, anything new come up?????
:mad:

Actually, I have read through things and am not the least bit surprised. Even the rumoured KMGH coathanger has apparently given up the ghost. Like Geof stated, this isn't as bad as living in New Orleans, but that is not much solace at this point.

I agree with the note posted by KEnglish
"The best thing that LCG could do is.........
First, all broadcasters should discontinue their programming feeds to DirecTV, DISH Network, and Cable, and replace them with a loop, giving their side of the situation."

Draconian but sure to get everyone's attention, do that for a few weeks and I will assure you it will make every newscast in the state. I also think the FCC should force the local stations to eventually grant E&W feed waivers to anyone living in this area.

"Then, they should simply shut down every one of their transmitters for a few days."
KMGH is, for the first time in history, leading the way in HDTV on this one. Although I hesitate to say this, 'way to go KMGH, I can't get your signal'.

"Then, put up billboards and buy newspaper and (AM) radio ads, explaining how politics are going to deprive everyone in the Denver area of TV and FM radio."
A couple of full page adds in the newspapers front new sections ought to get some attention here.

"The OTHER SIDE has been playing hardball long enough. It's time the stations FIGHT BACK.
Edit: I forgot to add.....revoke ALL network waivers immediately, so people have no where else to turn. Like I said, show 'em what the crystal ball says. Play hard ball."

I agree! I also think the chances of this happening are slim and none.

I don't mind revoking the waivers short term, but long term it may be the only alternative to cable, assuming you can afford to pay for free TV. I think a better deal would be for the FCC to rule that Sats and cable MUST provide HD for free until towers can be built. That would surely get E* and D* fighting the Jeffco folks in a big hurry.

Much like Jetlag, Geof and some of the other old timers, I really don't have much more to say that I haven't said a hundred times before. If you want network HD get it from other sources and send the bill to Jeffco for all of the hardware and monthly costs. It still amazes me that the commissioners could ignore the judges ruling and common sense so easily, but it certainly no longer comes as a surprise.

Got to run, have to get a cold compress on my head, the swelling from banging it against the wall is getting out of control. Might dull the pain with a nice big single malt Scotch just to be safe.

I think a better deal would be for the FCC to rule that Sats and cable MUST provide HD for free until towers can be built. That would surely get E* and D* fighting the Jeffco folks in a big hurry. I don't see much justification in making Comcast, D*, and E* pay for Jeffco's sins. A better idea would be to make Jeffco pay our cable/satellite bills for the basic tier required to receive network HD.

Not that either idea is a remedy the FCC could actually order, of course.

Leonard,

Here's the link/pic of the tower as proposed from sCARE's website. Note the tower on the right as it has multiple guy wires, not a single guy. They are at different elevation levels. (i.e. the reason it could NEVER fall like a tree.

LCGII Tower (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/Tower-guyed_big.gif)

Leonard,

Here's the link/pic of the tower as proposed from sCARE's website. Note the tower on the right as it has multiple guy wires, not a single guy. They are at different elevation levels. (i.e. the reason it could NEVER fall like a tree.

LCGII Tower (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/Tower-guyed_big.gif)"But what if a pack of enraged, radiated rodents chewed through all the cables on one side?" How could sCARE missed this obvious threat to public safety? :rolleyes:

I'm in east Longmont and only have issues with KCNC. KUSA is always steady althought the signal bounces from 70-80, while KCNC goes from 60-70. Might be interesting to see tha map to RP from my place. Gakon, if you can do this it would be greatly appreciated.

40.093998
-105.015545

FWIW, I'm using an unaplified CM 4228 on a 20ft. mast.

Maybe it's south Longmont that has problems. I can only get WB and FOX. Nothing from RP, Wyoming, or anywhere else. I've tried putting two different antennas on 20 foot masts on the peak of my house and I still get the same results.

Although...the city is going to be installing one of those outdoor warning sirens just a little ways away from me. Maybe I could slip the construction workers a little something to have them put my antenna on top of the sirens! Of course, I might loose reception every time they test the sirens and my antenna starts turning in circles!

But if that doesn't work...if anyone wants to map from my place to RP, I would appreciate finding out what's in my way, and just how tall of a mast I would need to get a signal!

40.139166
-105.107222

Let's hope the LCG group has something really good up their sleeve! They'll have to pull off something good to get a tower built anytime soon.

BTW: I've been lurking on this forum for quite some time now. Just wanted to thank everyone for all of the great information and links that have been provided. I would have gone nuts trying to find all of this information myself.

Leonard,

Here's the link/pic of the tower as proposed from sCARE's web site. Note the tower on the right as it has multiple guy wires, not a single guy. They are at different elevation levels. (i.e. the reason it could NEVER fall like a tree.

Thanks Ernie. Exactly. Did the model of Lookout Mountain with all its towers that they had on display also have multiple guy wires on the current channel 4 tower and the proposed tower? I just seem to recall that when they simulated a tower collapse they only disconnected one guy wire. One thing I do know the proposed fell like a tree onto a channel 4 guy wire and that tower fell like a tree also.

dr_mal since this demo was at the Aug 30th hearing can you shed any light on this?

Might be interesting to see tha map to RP from my place. Gakon, if you can do this it would be greatly appreciated.

40.161105
-105.032069

Edited lat and long values.

I worked for Jeffco for 15 years. I left in 1996. People I talk to say morale is at a all time low. I can't imagine what other crap these commissioners will pull during the next 4 years.

I can walk to Arapahoe County from my house. I wonder if I can drag it that far!! :(

I was very busy in the last few days and missed this debacle. However, I do have some answers.

KMGH and MNF...

The answer there is simple: Radio Shack was Closed!


As far as the vote goes...

When was the last time you saw: By The People For The People?
We live in a country where Politics & Money rule. The people who 'represent' us are traitors, and welcome to 'Amerika'.


214 Days...

Until you have the right to request a digital signal test(unless the traitors push that date out). I don't know who pays for the test, but it won't be you, if it's determined that you can't receive a grade 'B' signal. Now if HD LIL is not here by that time, I expect you all to request the test(This won't help people not using a satellite service). Hopefully, the charges for the testing will be forwarded to those wonderful folk's at KMGH.


Food For Thought...
Was Michael Brown the head of FEMA or the FCC?

....jc

Maybe it's south Longmont that has problems. I can only get WB and FOX. Nothing from RP, Wyoming, or anywhere else. Only thing I can guess is that you might be too close to the north side of that ridge near Niwot. When you hook up a receiver, do you get any reading at all in terms of signal strength for the RP stations?

Might be interesting to see the map to RP from my place.
Not too interesting, but you do have a hill relatively close (across 119) that might cause some problems. I think the ridge oxothuk mentions is west and a little south of you (at least that's where Niwot is). But with RP at 5900'+, you're close to having line of sight.

Sorry for the delay. I don't know how full time single parents can do it.