Dave W - I have DirecTV (HDNet and HBO-HD), but I understand the situation with Dish HD to be this:

You can get a national feed of CBS-HD (the Denver affiliate is CBS O&O, so there's a blanket waiver already in Dish's database), and I think Showtime HD and HBO HD. HDNet is only available on DirecTV.

If you can get KCNC with an OTA antenna, I'd think about switching to DirecTV to get HDNet. Lots of live sporting events and best PQ of all the satellite HD stations (IMO).

emorahan,

I have both DirecTV and DISH for High Def. The problem you will have is that the Dish HD comes from their satellite at 61.

So I have the DirecTV elliptical dish, and a Dish 500 pointed at 61 for DISH

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by Geof

Mbuchana (?)

[/B]

I hereby re-confirm for the Feb 13 meeting!

Mark

Still hoping to get some feedback on this. thanks.

"Well I just succeeded in getting the 80 inch antenna in my attic, with an amplifier (which needs to have an extension cord because there are no outlets up there). Anyway, I am getting KDVR (32). I caught the last 5 seconds of the news and then a sit-com came on - Just Shoot Me. I noticed three issues which I will raise as questions.

1) the right side of my 16:9 screen was cropped (probably making it 14:9, although I did not measure). Is this normal? Will the SuperBowl be the same?

2) the picture was okay, but sure was not DVD quality, and of course no where near HD. Anyone care to comment whether the SuperBowl will/should be better quality than something like Just Shoot Me?

3) there was a very noticeable timing difference in audio/video. My audio was about 1/8 second ahead of the video. This is unacceptable - is this Fox, or something with my system.

Thanks in advance. "

Gotcha. Thanks Mark.
And, for all those who may not know (or remember) it was Mark who started this very long thread...
see what you started...:)

RJS,
Did you see my post on number 3? Lot's of us have that problem with KDVR - it's not your setup. FWIW, Lipsync probably won't be an issue for the most part during the game itself because you rarely see the announcers....but I do wish KDVR would fix their problem.

Soundtrack finally got parts in for my TV and they've scheduled Tuesday to install the new board(s). No widescreen SuperBowl for me this year. Given that my HDTV is broken it gives me the excuse to skip the game (the widescreen format was the only reason I would have watched it). I'll be anxious to read everyones comments afterwards....

emorahan,

I'm using a Dish 6000 and I also have a DirecTv HD receiver. I do what you're talking about. I split the line with a special splitter going to the 6000 and feed that into the DirecTv receiver. As long as the 6000 is tuned to a channel on 119, it will feed 119 to my Dtv receiver and thus gets me HDnet.

The only question is, what "kind" of built in HD DirecTv receiver your TV has. If it's the equivalent of DirecTv's DTC-100 it will work. If it's a newer variation that uses the Advanced Program Guide (APG) it probably wont because those DirecTv receivers also need to see 101, the main DirecTv bird, to function correctly. I take it at this point you have no dish pointed to 101 since you're using Dish. Does the owners manual for your TV/receiver make any references to it using the APG?

As far as Dave W's question goes, I'm a little unsure if you already have a Dish setup thats not yet HD capable, or if you have no satellite system at all yet. If it's the former, you can check to see if you have a look angle to the 61.5 or 148 degree satellites to be able to get HD from Dish on.

If it's the latter, I wouldnt even consider Dish Network, I'd go with DirecTv for my service. From them you can get HBOHD and more importantly HDNet, and you wouldnt be losing out on CBS HD because you could just get that over the air in town here presumably. Since CBS HD is available over the air here, and since it's the only Network in HD on either service, thats not a reason in and of itself to subscribe to either satellite provider in particular.

To use DirecTv you'll need to determine, again with a compass, if you can see the 101 and 119 satellite positions.

Either of you feel free to ask followups cause I know it's complicated.

And RJS when it simply comes to 32, formatting has always been an issue, lip synch has always been an issue, and as for how the game will eventually end up looking is anybodies guess. :)

So Dan, are you doing something similar to what's shown in diagram 3a (http://www.geocities.com/dbs_tech/mdsapp/D3.htm#3B) (without the 101 LNB) or are you doing something different???

Not exactly. As you would know (but I didnt mention in the last post so as to not complicate it moreso) is that I also must see 101 for My Mitsu.

My total setup is this. I use a complete Dish system with 2 dishes. One at 61.5 for HD and a Dish500 for 110/119. Again, I tap into that line going into my 6000, just before it enters the 6000, to feed the Mitsu 119.

To get 101 into the Mistu I also have another Dish500 that I have set up to receive 91(for Evu) and 101. The output on the 101 side ties into the Mitsu after the aforementioned 2 Ghz splitter coming from the 6000 does, with the use of a 22 khz tone switch which allows the Mitsu to see 101 and 119 seamlessly. 119 that is, as mentioned previously, as long as the 6000 is tuned to a channel on 119.

Simple enough, huh? :)

I think Kevins diagram that you referred to was using the DirecTv elliptical and just tapping into the 119 lnb for the core programming on Dish. I dont use a DirecTv elliptical at all since I had Dish and Evu first.

I think I understand your setup Dan. The "limitation" with your setup (if I understand correctly) is your Dish receiver must be tuned to a channel on 119 if you want to use the DirecTv receiver on 119. Correct? If that's the case it's not a horrendous constraint.

emorahan,
I don't know whay I "brain farted" on this earlier but if you only have 1 Dish receiver and 1 DirecTv receiver but have a dual LNB at 119 you're all set to go. Use one of the LNB ports for Dish and the other for DirecTV just like you mentioned. You should be able to receive HD off of the DirecTV 119 bird without having to worry about 101. One thing you may wish to consider though is there are rumors that DirecTV will move their HD programming to 110....

Dan,

Do you have to pay both Dish & Dtv for their basic packages? Or is their a way you get just 199 (HDNet) free without having to duplicate all the basics?

You can send me a PM if there's a... trick ;)
Ernie

Geof, again it depends on whether his built in receiver is APG enabled or not. If it is, he really needs to be able to see 101..not for the HD, but just to make the receiver work right (not to say he couldnt at least try regardless). He could always install another dish at 101 though if he really needed/wanted to. As far as moving the HD to 110, I'm thinking that if you're doing what I'm doing, you should still be ok. Just have to tune the 6000 to a channel on 110 instead (not positive til it happens though). Presumably he already has a Dish500 pointing at 110/119 if he has a Dish 6000. But if he does need to see 101 and doesnt mind putting up another dish to do it, he might as well just buy the elliptical so he can totally seperate the 2 systems altogether.

Oh and yes, my 6000 needs to be tuned to a channel on 119 to watch HDNet or HBOHD. But I have macro's setup on my remote to where whenever I tune to either of those 2 channels, it automatically changes the 6000 to channel 106 first. So it's still just one keystroke regardless.

Ernie, as far as programming goes I'm a subscriber to The NFL Sunday Ticket from DirecTv and thats all from them.. and that so far has gotten me HDNet and HBOHD from DirecTv. Theres other threads discussing why folks are getting the HBOHD included these days too. So costwise it ends up being about 12 bucks per month if you divide the yearly football package cost by 12. Otherwise, guys are just paying for the cheapest package they can get from DirecTv if they dont otherwise want any of the SD channels, and they can get the 2 HD channels included in a package that runs 7 to 12 dollars and just includes a few SD channels. I'd just as soon apply the money towards football as opposed to channels I'd never watch, or that are probably included in my Dish programming package anyway. But some guys are cheap, and 7 dollars is better than 12! ;)

Another way of looking at is the fact that you're probably paying for HBO to get their HD feed now on Dish, so you could save that money, which would basically pay for your sub on DirecTv where it seems to be included..at least for now. Unless it matters to you to have all the SD channels from HBO too.

But again, if you're thinking about looking into it, you'd really probably want to get the DTC-100 for DirecTv because it doesnt have the APG, and doesnt need to see 101 for the concept to work.

KCNC is having audio sync problems again tonight. I thought they had that problem fixed, but I guess not. Hopefully it'll be better for CSI. The Price is Right special is fun, but alas not in HD...

Looking forward to meeting all of you on the 13th!

Geof,

Add me to the attendance list. Since, I'm to lazy/busy to find the exact where/when, would you mind e-mailing it to me?

Thanks,
G-Money

KCNC audio is absolutely awful tonight. It is almost impossible to watch. There is at least a one second difference between the video and the audio. What a pain! It will be nice when enough people are watching DTV that the stations will actually give a sh*t about the quality of their product.

G-Money et. al.

One of us will post some directions to KRMA shortly before the 13'th so it will be fresh. For those without any clue, the studio is just south of downtown a few blocks.

It's a real shame about the KCNC audio - this CSI episode is really good!

Geof,

I plan to attend. There is a very small chance I will be out of town.

Don

I also noticed the audio sync problem on KCNC. I noticed it on JAG the other night as well. I've passed this feedback on to David Layne so I'll see if they are aware of it and can fix it.

On another point, has anyone been able to find a reliable source for Denver HD antenna locations (lat and longitude)?? I have tried other sources mentioned on this forum such as http://www.10000watts.com and http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq

Both give inaccurate info because the location they list for basically all of the Denver station towers give a Lookout Mountain location. Strange. I guess just because this is where their origional application was filed for? Maybe the stations don't have to file with the FCC if they have a lower power signal?

- Dustin

I'm not sure I undestand what you're getting at Dustin, but arent there programs that can determine that from addresses? 18 and 35 are on Republic Plaza and 17 is off KMGH's own building.

JMartinko / Geof -

Should I send out the meeting info to the email group (121 members). Some of them might not have been on in a while and not know about the meeting. Let me know...

Jay

Originally posted by DP1
I'm not sure I undestand what you're getting at Dustin, but arent there programs that can determine that from addresses? 18 and 35 are on Republic Plaza and 17 is off KMGH's own building.

I would like to be able to map exactly where I am located from the tower in miles and bearing. I can determine my lat and longitude because of the GPS device that I have, but I would like to get lat and longitude for the towers. I am not aware of something that will give me this, because Mapquest will not allow you to get lat/long from an address.

- Dustin

Dustin -

www.mapblast.com will give you lat/long of an address.

Okay, based on the latest inputs here's the latest list. it's growing and now up to 20 "for sures" and 4 "maybes" (or unconfirmed). Folks with ? marks after there names are either unsure or have not re-confirmed since jm posted the date and time. Please post a note or send me a PM if there's an error or an update. Here's the list...

Jm
Geof
Jeffden
Markdl
Dr_mal
RonAuger
JohnJr
Santellavision
Jeffwalter
Joej
MrinDenver
Keithsimp
Pokers
Zanaberry
Freddie
Mbuchana
Smithdzd
Donyoop
G-Money
Serotta
BrianBHD (?)
Deepcscuba (?)
MalcolmG (?)
Greg T (?)


deepcscuba,
Yes, I think sending a group email notice is a good thing. I know you want to get away from being the keeper of the list so you might want to include that in the email in addition to the meeting info. Please ask anyone who is interested to sign up on the forum so JM can get a reasonably accurate head count to KRMA.

All,
Once again, the meeting is scheduled for Feb 13. We can start to gather at the KRMA studio at 6 PM and the meeting will start at 7 PM. Don't know how long it will last but it will be fun to meet everyone and hear what KRMA has planned. Don't be shy...newby's welcomed....


Dan,
I agree with the APG comments (these receivers need to see 101). I should have mentioned that in the post but thought of it as I was driving home from work. I also agree the same setup should work at 110.

NOTE:
Updated the list on 2/2....

Thanks guys for the info the DTC100 receiver. A couple of months ago i switched over to Dish to get CBS-HD because of KCNC's delay. Then Bam!, Dtv adds HDNet. Now, i'm thinking about going back and adding Dtv for that.
I know, i know what's gonna' happen... as soon as i go buy a DTC100, the merger's gonna' get approved and Dish'll have HDNet.

By the way, I'm flippin' through the HD-Net listings and they have some wacky programs listed. Are these shows really in 1080HD or just bad up-converted stuff.

I'm not making this up...
A Documentary on Bridge Dwellers in HD
Mavericks Dancers Tryouts in HD (OK, that's cool!)
NLL: Columbus Landsharks @ Buffalo Bandits in HD
(What the hell is the NLL?) Is that the National Leapfrog League? Gotta' be one of those 'European' Olympic sports like the guys who sweep a Hamilton-Beach Iron down a frozen shuffleboard?

Who's paying the big bucks to rent a state-of-the-art broadcast truck to show the NLL? Fox won't even spend the money to originate the the Superbowl in more than 1950's NTSC 480i!
(Well, at least it might be in C-O-L-O-R) :p

Ernie,

There are a lot of HD-Net discussions over in the HDTV programming forum. The National Lacrosse League is in full 1080i. Mark Cuban, who made $2 billion selling broadcast.com to Yahoo and is the owner of the Dallas Mavericks, has bankrolled the HDnet network. The only bad HD stuff is the old upconverted movies and series (chasing rainbows). The sporting events are excellent quality given the limited camera shots available. The HDNet production facilities are right here in Colorado. HDNet also had a high def war-time Afghanistan documentary hosted by Peter Arnett that was outstanding. They have live NHL HD games once or twice a week and will have something like 80 HD MLB broadcasts this year.

don

I know what you mean about fate Ernie in so far as just about the time you invest in something you might have wished you didnt. I almost think that already when it comes to having bought a DirecTv HD receiver for HDNet because not long after I did it my Evu system starting showing some of the HDNet hockey and Lacrosse...and now they're also going to show all the Olympic HD coverage too! Oh well. As Don said it's a great channel because of all the documentaries being spectacular PQ wise.

Another way I looked at it is, if and when the merger does go through, and eventually they have to swap out equipment, I'll just have 2 boxes that they'll have to switch out at supposedly no cost. And regardless, at some point down the road a person will have more than 1 tv that they need/want a digital tuner connected to anyway. It's only money right? ;)

I too am looking forward to meeting everyone at the meeting on the 13th.

Has anyone noticed that KDVR has gone back to the crappy 14:9 format again. I think on Monday and Tuesday it was O.K., but I checked it yesterday afternoon and it was back to 14:9.

Anyone have any ideas what's going on here?

Also I had the bad lip sync problems on CSI last night as well. I still watched it since it was high def.

Thanks
Joe

I'm not sure what the heck 32 is doing. On one hand the good news is that they're passing through the Network 480p shows and that they're not really cropping anymore, but theres something about the local programming that has a very "artificial" look to it. Something to do with their upconverter perhaps. But it may not bode well for the game which they also have to (or at least presumably will) upconvert to 480p.

As far as KCNC and the lip synch goes I'm sure they are still working on the kinks. I remember a year and a half ago when I was first watching the CBS affiliate in Boston, they had bad lip synch issues on the HD side almost every night. But eventually they got it sorted out. Not that that means anything to a person in the here and now trying to watch CSI enjoyably.

This is off topic a bit and do not take this to the bank - it's pure speculation on my part - but if/when E* and DTV merge I'm guessing the great receiver swapout will be with the Dish receivers. Here's why:

->DTV has more customers and therefore more receivers than E*
->DTV is supposedly very close to rolling out new cards (making hacking much harder)
->There are TV's with DTV receivers built in
->E* has developed a dual receiver - it receives both DTV and Dish
->DTV menu's and guides are better that Dish's (so I've heard - is that true Dan?)

Oh well, just my guess. Now that I've said that it will go the other way...:(

I called KCNC last night about 8:30 when the lip sync problem got too irritating. Spent about 5 minutes punching random extension numbers into the voice mail system until I hit one with a live answer (6464, I think). The person that answered transferred me to engineering where I spoke to Steve(?). I told him I was one of the few DT viewers of KCNC, and asked if he was aware that the audio and video were way out of whack. He said he hadn't looked at the digital broadcast yet that evening, and couldn't get to it right away, but would try to get to it later. I didn't see any improvement through The Agency, so I guess it doesn't get much priority.

Originally posted by Geof
->DTV menu's and guides are better that Dish's (so I've heard - is that true Dan?)


Well, while I've always tended to say that I watch programming and not the guides and menus anyway.... can you say, "it's the difference between night and day, boys and girls?" ;)

Dan,

I've got a Dish 6000 too and is it just mine, but the guide is always saying 'Info not available' for an hour ahead. (Sat Channels, not OTA) Some channels do show a hour or two, but most don't. You have to scroll to the right and then wait about a minute for the info to be down-loaded. It's awful.

Is your's the same? I remember my Dtv guide was always there and you could easily scroll the guide for about 2 days!
----------
Also, I just called Dtv and wouldn't ya know it,
they just changed the rules. Now you can't get just the NFL or NHL packages without the $32 total choice package. So, if 'ya want HDNet, 'ya gotta' buy the whole enchilada. :mad:

Ernie,
My 6000 acted the same, unbelievably long delays to update even an hour or two ahead. The RCA DTC100 being a first generation STB also exhibits this.

I end up searching ahead on my DIRECTIVO which gets me the upcoming two weeks for everything except HDNET.

Jeff

Originally posted by santellavision

Also, I just called Dtv and wouldn't ya know it,
they just changed the rules. Now you can't get just the NFL or NHL packages without the $32 total choice package. So, if 'ya want HDNet, 'ya gotta' buy the whole enchilada. :mad:

Hmmm, thats odd and I'm not sure I'd believe that without talking to more people at dtv. For the NHL package yes, I believe you've always had to have some other type of subscription as well. But the NFL package has always been available all by itself due to the way that the contract between the parties is drawn up. Perhaps thats changed, but again, I'd certainly double check.

And yes, both of my 6000's are dirt slow when it comes to guide updating.

So has KDVR officially stated thaat they will pass-thru the network SuperBowl feed in 480p 16x9? I know they have been working on this and all signs are positive, but what is their official position?

Ernie,

I am fairly sure that you can still get the DIRECT limited package which is 3 SDTV channels and HDNET for $ 7.00 monthly ( no additional commitments ). There is a thread in HDTV programming which talks about this. I think the Channels include NASA as well. Or, you could purchase just HBO ( 8 channels )for $ 12.00 monthly. I don't think you have to get total choice with that. Just keep insisting that you only want HBO or the limited package. Ask for supervisors, etc. I know others have been successful with this lately.

Jeff

They said it "officially" as far as I'm concerned Doug at the end of their newscast a few nights ago. They didnt mention 480p specifically but they said "the game would be shown in widescreen on channel 32 for all those of you that have been asking about it" With an accompanying graphic. I think the 480p part is a given because they upconvert everything else to 480p to begin with. Since they're still having issues with the way some of their programming is looking these days though, your guess is as good as mine as to how it'll actually end up looking.

Have you caught any of the 480p widescreen primetime shows they've passed through beginning this past week, such as Boston Public?

Doug,
FYI: Fox Network is only orginating the SuperBowl in 480i 16:9 not 480p. They are sending it to the local affiliate stations that way. Then the stations have the choice to line-double it to 480p. KDVR said they would try to do it, but with them now switched back to 14:9 and the funky dropped-field studder, It's not looking good.

Does anyone have a OTA receiver that outputs native 480p that can confirm that they are at least x-mitting in progressive?
MY Dish 6000 like most OTA receivers up-covert to 720p or 1080i anyway.

Jeff,
I've now been through about half-dozen CSR's/Supervisors at Dtv and they keep telling me they've just changed the rules (Today no less) that you can't get cheap packages anymore like the $2.99 Music choice or the $7.99 Limited deal w/o the $32. TC package.

I Know this is slightly off the tread, but its all related because we need to be creative, and figure out ways to overcome the Denver broadcasting debacle.

I *believe* 32 is always putting out a 480p signal but it's based on very unscientific evidence since I dont have a receiver that can do 480p natively. But that evidence is the fact that the 6000 can alter the aspect ratio on all true 480i, true 720p and true 1080i signals with choices of stretch, full zoom, partial zoom, gray bars etc. But on 32 the only options that it gives you are stretch and gray bars. That leads me to believe that something non-conforming to what the 6000 can deal with is being done. The only thing I can think of is the signal being 480p.

Or not. ;)

Santellavision -- I know there were programming changes being made today -- for one, they've added Discovery Wings and they're repricing/renaming Total Choice with family pack to Total Choice + and bundling locals for less money, so it seems reasonable that they might have done away with bare bones packages effective today as well.

Dan - Ahhh that would make sense...I just noticed earlier this week that my 6000 wouldn't do the other zoom modes on 32. At first I thought it had something to do with the software upgrade, but it makes sense that it's not liking the signal from 32. Glad it's not just me... :)

Huh, look at that...my 150th post.

Has anyone that was previously unable to get KMGH tried a better antenna combo and gotten KMGH?

So far it looks like only about 7 people here are receiving KMGH at all. Most are in Denver proper and I think one of us (Greg T) is getting KMGH from the Highlands Ranch area.

I am receiving KRMA, KCNC, and KDVR pretty well with an attic mounted Channel Master StealthTenna (also has internal Preamp). I am getting nothing for KMGH as I expected. Unknown as to actual signal strength because Panasonic TUHDS20 does not have a signal meter.

I would like to try and pickup KMGH since ABC is at least broadcasting some shows in 720p and DD 5.1. I have ordered the CM 4221 (4 bay bow) and a CM 7775 preamp to 'up' my receiving power based on some of the recommendations in the forum that this is a much better antenna. I am not overly optimistic considering that KMGH is broadcasting such a low power signal from a low elevation, but I figure its worth a shot anyways.

Anybody using a CM 4221 able to get KMGH?

thanks,
Dustin

Being as far away as you are Dustin, if dont have actual line of sight (as many in Highlands Ranch do, or real close to it) it can be pretty hard. You'll prolly need to get the antenna outdoors and as high as you can. Nothing hurts to try though. Maybe some guys that live S/SE can chime in.

I live approx: County Line and Quebec.

I am receiving:
17-1, 17-2 KMGH
18, 80-3 KRMA
32-1 KDVR
35-1 KCNC

Using a Samsung SIR-T150
and This Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F002%5F004%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2162)

Mounted in my attic.

Here's a Link to the Channel Master Site (http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/u1.htm)

Originally posted by MalcolmG
I called KCNC last night about 8:30 when the lip sync problem got too irritating. Spent about 5 minutes punching random extension numbers into the voice mail system until I hit one with a live answer (6464, I think). The person that answered transferred me to engineering where I spoke to Steve(?). I told him I was one of the few DT viewers of KCNC, and asked if he was aware that the audio and video were way out of whack. He said he hadn't looked at the digital broadcast yet that evening, and couldn't get to it right away, but would try to get to it later. I didn't see any improvement through The Agency, so I guess it doesn't get much priority.

Malcom,

You are able to get KCNC-HD in Loveland? Wow. What kind of setup do you have? I can't get anything other than KDVR in Greeley.

-Mike

Originally posted by dmunn
I live approx: County Line and Quebec.

I am receiving:
17-1, 17-2 KMGH
18, 80-3 KRMA
32-1 KDVR
35-1 KCNC


Thanks Dmunn-
At least I have hope now that someone close by me is able to pull in KMGH. I receive the new Channel Master 4221 antenna on Monday, so I will give it a try and let everyone know the results.

- Dustin

I do a locals only subscription for $5.99 with DirecTv. I get channel 199(HDNET) and 509 (HDHBO) at no extra charge.

Gary

Originally posted by dmunn
I live approx: County Line and Quebec.

I am receiving:
17-1, 17-2 KMGH
18, 80-3 KRMA
32-1 KDVR
35-1 KCNC

Using a Samsung SIR-T150
and This Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F002%5F004%5F002%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2162)

Mounted in my attic.

Here's a Link to the Channel Master Site (http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/u1.htm)

Wow, that's great. My store is literally right on the corner of County Line and Quebec, right next door to LePeeps. I'm using 2 Terk HD60TV for OTA and cannot get KMGH. I've got DTC100's, Dish 6000's and direct feeds into Zenith HD RP's. KRMA, KDVR and KCNC are all OK with signals around 85.

Maybe I'm vending the wrong antenna :)

Jeff-
You should carry Channel Master. I have not found anyone in Denver that sells them. I've ordered my Stealthtenna from Stark Electronics in MA and the 4 bay I ordered from a different outfit called Warren Electronics in IL.

Channel Master Yagi's and their 4 and 8 bay bow antennas are supposed to be the best. I have not tried the Terk's, but from what I've read in other threads on AVSforum people say that they are overpriced and don't work near as well as Channel Master or even the cheap radio shack ones.

- Dustin

Malcom,

You are able to get KCNC-HD in Loveland? Wow. What kind of setup do you have? I can't get anything other than
KDVR in Greeley.

-Mike

Mike,
With my approximately 7-year-old Winegard mid-model rooftop VHF/UHF antenna I could get KRMA and KDVR. KCNC would jump around between zero and 60% with no lock. I added the $20 RadioShack yagi with a direct RG6 to my 6000 and nailed KCNC at about 85% signal strength. The antenna is about 6 feet above the roof of my single story ranch; just checked the topo map and I am at about 5300 feet. Based on lat/long numbers I am 49.7 miles from Republic Plaza.

I get a rock solid 0% on KMGH-DT. I've been debating trying the CM 8-bay bowtie and maybe a 10-20 foot mast, but I've detected some sarcastic "antenna comments" from the spouse.

I have a detailed map program and I can get the lat/lon of the towers from it. As soon as I get a chance, I'll look it up for you

Gene

SmithDzd:
If the address of kmgh is 123 E speer, the coordinates are
lat:39.7260 lon:104.98578

If someone can get me the address of Replubic Plaza, I can also get the lat and lon of it.

Gene

Hey for those of you that can..or otherwise dont mind trying/using what is probably the biggest UHF/VHF antenna known to man ;), Radio Shack is clearing out their VU-210XR model for $3.49. It was originally 129.99 Part num. 15-2157

I went and got one just for fun (good thing I drove the SUV and not the Vette as the box is at least 8 feet long and the antenna when put together might be almost twice that) and might see if it'll fit in the attic. If not, I can prolly melt it down and sell it for scrap..enough to buy a 6 pack!

As a followup to me mentioning that I had just purchased one, I could tell immediately that I wouldnt have any interest in using it for both VHF and UHF because for my purposes it was just to darned big, as well as the fact as I didnt care about VHF anyway.

Upon close examination I felt that I could modify it to be UHF only, and in that case it wouldnt be alot different or bigger than the UHF only 80" Yagi from Radio Shack that I was already using. The same one dmunn mentions using in his last post.

However it was just different enough, a few more "elements" on the main boom, and different sized elements on the 2 smaller bolt on pieces. So just for the heck of it I removed the VHF elements and put the antenna up in place of my old one. Immediately I saw a difference on signal strength on the channel that gives me the most problems. Channel 17 of course, that I can usually only get at night unless the daytime temperature remains under 25 or so. In the daytime on my Mistu receiver the signal strength usually drops down to 21 only to eventually come back up to 37 (what it takes to get a solid enough lock) or higher in the evenings. Today again I was at 21 before I swapped the units out, but as soon as I did I was already getting 30...without even tweaking it at all.

Anyway, point being for 4 bucks I think it was worth it..as it seems that the UHF portion of it is desined slightly different/better than the UHF only unit I had before.

Just got the (S)care newsletter. Read this...
CARE's position is that IF Jeffco feels that it must approve a tower in Jefferson County, Jeffco must select the site that subjects the fewest people and businesses to adverse radiation effects. Eldorado site best meets that criteria. Care speakers will present this position at the Feb 6th Meeting.
I think we should all go to the Pinnacle Tower Feb 6th, 6pm meeting at the Taj. There is another on the 13th @ 6pm.

The newletter continues with the mention of the Bear Creek Development Zoning/Planning Meeting on March 13th & March 27th, 6pm also at the Taj. This is gonna be interesting, let's see if (S)cares power is enough to persude Jeffco to approve the Eldorado site.

Article in this morning's Daily Camera about the Eldorado Tower application by Pinnacle.

http://www.thedailycamera.com/news/county/03ltowr.html

It looks to me like (S)CARE has bet on a losing horse in this one. Pinnacle stock is trading at $0.17, down from a 52 week high of $12.69. I don't know the Jeffco commissioners, but I would have to think they would be a bit concerned about putting their eggs in that basket. Expecting Pinnacle to live up to all those promised 'improvements' may be a bit much, especially knowing revenue streams would be limited since none of the local networks would be willing to move to Eldorado.

2 Questions:

1. I live in Conifer, about 25-30 miles from downtown, pretty much southwest. I was thinking about putting up a antennae to see what I could get. I think that my antannae might be high enough as my house is at 9600 ft above see level. I am about 500-1000 yards away from an overlook of the entire Denver area. But I am wondering if I have got a chance to receive anything OTA. I have Dish right now and would switch to Direct to get a good deal on some new hardware with the OTA decoder built in. But if you all don't think I could get any signal I wouldn't spend the money to get the OTA decoder.

Any Ideas?

2. Any particular RS store Dan? I think you live SW. 3 bucks!! count me in...

Doug

You might have a chance at 18, 32 and 35 Doug. As always, hard to say until you actually try. As far as RS stores, I bought that antenna at the Bear Valley RS but it was the only one they had. I didn't even call any others. You might try the SW Plaza store, or for the price, it's probably worth calling any of em. Sounds like it would be a good antenna for someone in your case for future considerations regardless.

Did you try the RS up by you near the Safeway store? Maybe that guy has one. I used to go to that store quite a bit when I used to live in Deer Creek Canyon.

Thanks from a newbie for the tip on the RS antenna.

I figured this weekend was as good a time as any to see what kind of OTA DTV I could receive out here in Louisville. I went into the RS in Lafayette and they didn't have one, but they were able to look in their computer and check inventories in all the other stores. Both Radio Shacks in Longmont had them, so I got one there. There were many other stores which listed one or two in stock, so it's definitely worth calling the store nearest you, then asking them to check their computer if they don't have one. Give them the part #, though, because it's not in their printed catalogs so they may not believe it exists.

Oh, and bring a roofrack to get it home! This is the most ridiculously large antenna I've ever seen. I actually only put up HALF of it (the full UHF section, and about six feet of VHF) because the full thing would overwhelm my house!

At any rate, I've discovered that from down in the valley in Old Town Louisville, the only DTV I can get is Fox. I haven't been able to get any signal at all from the downtown transmitters, so it looks like the STB will be going back to Best Buy next week. I'll check out the Super Bowl today, but if what I've seen on Fox so far is any indication, their offerings will hardly justify the expense. Though the color is good, the upsampled SD image looks overly sharpened and aliased compared to the analog signal and my Toshiba's internal line doubler. Plus, the sound is slightly out of sync with the video (perhaps this has to do with the Samsung t150 stb? I certainly couldn't find a setting to correct it).

Anyway, interesting experiment, and that mondo antenna gives me razor-sharp analog reception on both bands, so it's still $3.49 well spent.

I just called the Radio Shack in southwest plaza and the price for the antenna is $79.99. I live near C-470 and Ken Caryl and able to receive KDVR OTA with a 100" Yagi from Radio Shack at about 64%. This causes some breakup in audio and picture. I have a Dish 6000. Any thoughts on what I can do to get a little extra signal boost. Also, I'm watching the pregame stuff on fox and the video still has that "strobe" light effect. Not very smooth animation on the fast moving scenes. Anybody else still notice this?

Yep... KDVR still hasn't fixed the dropped-field studder problems as of 12:40. And the size is still not quite 16:9. It doesn't look good for being fixed by game time. Looks like I'll be watching the game on my 32" Sony XBR2 SDTV upstairs.

Bells,

From Old Town, you would need to point basically through the Jeffco airport to get line of sight, so you are probably right, with Fox your only usable signal, I doubt it is worth keeping for now.

I don't think I have watched 3 hours total of KDVR-32 in over 3 years of pursuing this insane little hobby. :)

Jeff

Is KDVR broadcasting the game in HD today?

KDVR is live with 16:9 now - picture looks pretty good. Lip synch problem makes the pre-game unwatchable. Why dont they just fix that already. But I am happy with the PQ so far - not HD, but not bad. Anyone else have an opinion.

Picture quality is not bad. But, I am still seeing lip sync problems on the pregame. What a bummer. I would have hoped they would have this fixed by now.

Is everyone else having lip sync issues?

- Dustin

It looks ok I guess. But I'm withholding judgement til later when I'll be able to see the digital feed from Boston via Evu. Then I'll be able to tell if theres any issues locally or not (aside from lip synch which is ever present). At the moment though Evu is showing the NBA game in HD instead of the football pre-game.

1:25, still have audio sync problems, plus watching No Doubt perform, lots of picture dropouts and pixellation. Also, it looks to me like KDVR is still dropping frames from the broadcast - camera pans are anything but smooth. I'm watching on my dish 6000, and getting about 80% signal strength. C'mon KDVR! Get these issues fixed before 4:18!

Dan,

I would be interested in hearing your comparison. I still see horrible combing artifacts from their conversion from interlaced to progressive. Since I haven't seen this mentioned in other threads on this board I assume it's a local problem. I doubt I'll watch the digital broadcast if it continues.

Has anyone spoken to an engineer at KDVR? Perhaps they don't know they have a problem.

Michael

Maybe I have hit the Budweiser too early, but I could swear that the lip sync problem is almost fixed completely.

PS - on the Bud, I grew up in St. Louis, so I can claim to be a Rams fan, even though the Cardinals were ther at the time.

Is KDVR broadcasting the game in HD today?GMoney,
Fox Net is only producing the game in plain 'ol 480i and sending it to KDVR that way. They are trying to line-double it to 480p, but their equipment is not working correctly. It's studdering and yeah, the lip-sync is still off too.

Thanks for the info!

BTW-Have you tuned every one of you're commercial monitors since Michael Chen was out?

They've been perfect since he came out. We (michael & I) found that just moving my Mits 46807 around a foot or so, would throw off the convergence/focus. We pulled it away from the wall, did all the ISF stuff, and then moved it back, Aaaaah! It was way off. So, Michael had to do it all again. I haven't touched it since! The boxes are built pretty cheaply so, they shift. I've looked at a friends $6K Pioneer and mine looks way better. The man is a God! Is he comin' back to town?

I'm watching the game right now, and for once, I am watching Fox and I don't have a lip sync problem. The picture is OK, certainly better than regular Directv. It looks a little strange when there is fast action, sort of like it is in slow motion. It doesn't jitter or anything, it just doesn't look right. It could be my imagination, though. I am watching via a Sony HD100 STB.

UPDATE: I now notice the jittering but only during close-ups of fast action where the action fills the screen, like during replays. I've also noticed just a bit of the lip sync issue.

I am also noticing the 'slo mo' effect. Perhaps it is due to the fact that KDVR is upconverting the 480i feed from Fox and something is amiss with the upconversion. I've switched to watching Fox in SDTV. The slo mo basically makes it unwatchable.

- Dustin

Spent some time comparing the SB feed from Express Vu (FOX -25) in Boston and our KDVR. It was no contest. There is definitely something major screwed up in the KDVR transcoder. While the Boston feed was not ultimate HD quality I found it "near HD quality " and very watchable. No herky jerky effects and no lip sync probelms.

Dear Mr Chief Engineer of KDVR (Fox-32):

On monday please do the following:

1. Pick up the phone and call the chief engineer at FOX -25 in Boston.

2. Tell him you have major problems with your DTV transcoder.

3. Tell him you are dropping packets and video frames.

4. Tell him you have major lip -sync problems.

5. Ask him what generation software he is running.

6. Ask him for his configuration setup parameters.

7. Make the changes so your transcoder runs like his.

This is just a friendly piece of career advice.

Regards

Originally posted by DougTalley
Dear Mr Chief Engineer of KDVR (Fox-32):

On monday please do the following:

1. Pick up the phone and call the chief engineer at FOX -25 in Boston.

2. Tell him you have major problems with your DTV transcoder.

3. Tell him you are dropping packets and video frames.

4. Tell him you have major lip -sync problems.

5. Ask him what generation software he is running.

6. Ask him for his configuration setup parameters.

7. Make the changes so your transcoder runs like his.

This is just a friendly piece of career advice.

Regards

We all noticed this last week during the NFC Championship game, so it is no surprise that it looked awfull for the Super Bowl. They should have made some calls last Sunday and worked on it non-stop until this morning. Just another black eye for fox.

-Mike

I watched some of the game (just bits and pieces - I was busy in the workshop this weekend). When I did watch, I was tuned to DT31 and the picture looked fine. This wasn't too surprising - since the HDTV is busted I'm feeding the 480i ouptut from the Mits HD STB to a 27" NTSC Sony).

However, I copied the Superbowl comments and sent them off to the KDVR Engineering Director. I also mentioned there was a persistent and consistent Lipsync issue.

Ok, I didn't expect the SB to look as good as it did last year when CBS let channel 6 use the HD feed. But at my house, what I saw on 32-1 was a simple upconvert of the SD signal, with the graphics cut off at the top and bottom. I was under the mis-impression that FOX was sending a true 16:9 that could be cropped to 4:3, doubled to 480p. Looked OK when everyone was standing still. But when someone or something moved, the PO went to s**t.

Not good when the subject is football.

Had friends and relatives in for the game. At least I was able to use 18-3 and HDNet to show them "what might have been".

Good grief! Let's pray to the HD gods that Murdoch doesn't get his hands on DirecTV, if and when Charlie's merger is rejected!

See you guys at Channel 6 next week.

Mike

Something is wrong when you can get a replay of the Sam Houston college football game in beautiful HD - from a small start up named HDNet - and at the same time get the most watched sporting event of the year from a major broadcaster in messed up 480p.

I am still mad as I had quite a few friends over to watch the game on the 100 inch 16:9 screen (via HD100), and it looked like garbage.

Good job Fox.

Based on other comments in this forum part of the blame for the poor 480p picture lies at the doorstep of mother Fox. I think KDVR should take some heat, but so should the Fox Network. Send an email - askfox@foxinc.com - and let 'em know how you feel.

Originally posted by MRinDenver
Ok, But at my house, what I saw on 32-1 was a simple upconvert of the SD signal, with the graphics cut off at the top and bottom. I was under the mis-impression that FOX was sending a true 16:9 that could be cropped to 4:3, doubled to 480p. Looked OK when everyone was standing still. But when someone or something moved, the PO went to s**t.


Hmmm. Not sure what you were seeing in regards to the formatting Mike. Theres no question that 32 was passing the 16x9 widescreen feed through just as any other digital affiliate was.

But beyond that, yes, because of 32's upconversion issue the game was basically unwatchable anyway. Like Doug, I was A/B'ing the game from the same 2 sources and while formatting was identical, the picture quality of course, was not.

I echo those that said they were disappointed. The look of the game itself was like I was watching a poor football video game instead of "live action". It actually looked a bit artificial.

Jeff

It's good to hear that I wasn't the only one that was disappointed in the quality. I thought the color was good and the close ups were fine. I was just when there was fast motion that caused the problem for me.

On another note has anyone been to "Denver Audio Designs"? This is a new store at 7255 S. Havana. They have some pretty nice set ups and carry some good equipment. They have several rooms dedicated to home theaters.

I didn't approach them as of yet but I think they would be approachable to putting in a petition and I was going to send them an e-mail pointing them to this thread and invite them to the meeting on the 13th.

Does anyone have any objections to inviting them to the meeting?

Later
Joe

I don't think we should discourage anyone from attending the meeting next week, especially store managers and the like. That said I think it's courteous to give KRMA an approximate head count - jm do you know how many folks KRMA can accommodate??

Originally posted by Geof
I don't think we should discourage anyone from attending the meeting next week, especially store managers and the like. That said I think it's courteous to give KRMA an approximate head count - jm do you know how many folks KRMA can accommodate??

I left a message with the KRMA folks to find out if there are any room limitations. I don't know the conference room size so I will try to find that out. They did not mention any limitations when I first talked to them, but they may not have expected the turnout either. I will post information when I receive it.

As for the KDVR broadcast, I am glad that they at least made the effort to show the widescreen. I think the fact that the telecast was way below the standards we are used to for HDTV is a given. I was glad I had not invited a bunch of folks over for the show, since after last year's game, this was a real letdown. Still it was a tad better than NTSC, and the widescreen was nice. The EE Fox used was annoying. Like everyone else I saw the 'jitter' on plays early in the game, but either my eyes adjusted or it got progressively better as the game went on. Maybe the engineers at KDVR were doing their job and got things adjusted to a degree. I did not find it as annoying by the end of the game. Still, I hope Fox network does not get away with claiming this was as good as a DVD. I certainly don't have any DVD's that look that bad in far away action scenes. If you really wanted to compare the difference with true HD, those of you who have access to the Lakers/Mavs game on before the SB on NBC and HDNet certainly could tell that the FOX version was nowhere near as nice. At least the next two SB's are with ABC and CBS so we can hope for real HD telecasts. I think the next HD party at my house will have to be for the Final Four in late March.

I saw the same problem on the FOX widescreen Super Bowl broadcast. Action seemed slow and the picture did seem like it was "otherworldly" or like a video game.
I switched to my regular DTV satellite receiver, and while the action was more life like, the players at the edge of the screen were slightly more blurred than on the digital OTA Fox broadcast... Satellite: good action, slightly more blurry picture. OTA Digital: slo mo weirdness, better picture. The slo mo effect was so distracting to me that I decided to just watch it on my regular system as opposed to viewing (as it should have been) through the digital OTA broadcast. guess I can't have everything.

dan:o

Just got the word from KRMA, the conference room will hold up to about 50 people, so it sounds like we are still in good shape. Tiffany Q. Tyson
(Director, Communications & Brand Management) said they are thrilled with the potential turnout.

I saw the same thing everyone saw on Sunday during the Super Bowl. This is the kind of action I see on 17-1 when they do football games. (I realize they have not broadcast in HiDef). Could this be a progressive problem ? The interlaced channels seem to handle panning shots with action so much better. Could just be coincidental that ABC and Fox are 720p and 480p and have similar hesitating motion. I was under the impression that progressive handled the motion better than interlaced. Maybe not.

Fifty huh....let's try to fill up the room.

We're about half way there....

Doug,

It's not a 'progressive' thing. You're right on the money, 'progressive' IS the better way to go. Especially on motion. KDVR's encoder is not working right. I think you're just seeing what happens when, as I like to say... we have an "ESO Problem". The Equipment is Superior to the Operator(s).

First, i have to say, most HD enthusiasts have never seen native 720p. Due to 1080i being the choice of most producers, there's very little programming and most of the home theater gear upconvert from it, so you almost never see it natively. I prefer 720p over 1080i for lots of reasons. You still get some aliasing on verticals with 1080i which you don't get with 720p and the motion is better too. And actually 720p has MORE visible resolution. With 1080i you're only seeing half the 'interlaced' image at any given time on the screen (i.e. 520 lines) compared to 720p which you are seeing 720 lines all the time. That's why when you're watching old 480i, you are really only seeing 240 lines on the screen at any one time. And with Progressive-scan (with 3:2 inverse pull-down removal) DVD players, your seeing the full 480 lines all the time. (*note: this was all very simplified)

Hello everyone,

I concur that the KDVR widescreen 480p picture had some problems. Everything fell apart when we got some motion; then it was hard to focus because of the slo-mo effect. I know I have a crappy line doubler in the internal DTC100 but I didn't think it was that crappy based on excellent progressive DVD upconvert results, so it had me wondering if it was KDVR or my internal DTC 100. I too got used to the slo-mo because I did enjoy seeing most of the pass routes the receivers took on short routes. The KDVR line doubler had severe problems with anti-aliasing on the yard markers, especially panning from the corner. My oldest son was home from CSU to see the game in widescreen and said "I haven't seen this many jaggies on yard markers since I rented Madden for the PS2." The Fox audio guys seemed to have a bad day with the audio fading in and out the whole game including halftime. The game itself greatly exceeded my expectations and had me eating crow on my prediction. Next year is KMGH and I'm not currently one of the lucky 10.

Oh, and I'm a definite confirm for next Wednesday the 13th. Is the time still 7 pm?

Don

Cool, sounds like we have plenty of room for our meeting. I'll let the guys at "Denver Audio Designs" know about it. They can decide if they are interested or not.

Later
Joe

In this morning's news: "Bush Budget: $500M Spectrum Fee"
Commercial TV stations that retain analog licenses after 2006 would be required to pay $500 million in annual user fees.

http://www.tvinsite.com/multichannelnews/index.asp?layout=story&doc_id=67961&display=breakingNews

The Sectrum fee idea is not new but I do like the idea....too bad it won't pass.

Just wondering what the "Official" time and Place for the Meeting is..

I spoke with Dave Layne at KCNC and he says that they believe they have corrected the lip synch problems over the weekend.

I was out last night so did not get to check it out, but will tonight. Can others take a look and let me know if you still see lip sync problems on KCNC?

thanks,
Dustin

The Feb 13th KRMA meeting starts at 7 PM but we can start to gather beginning at 6 PM (6 to 7 is a "get acquainted" time). The meeting is at the KRMA studio, which is close to downtown - 1089 Bannock Street 80204.

I briefly watched a few minutes of KCNC last night after the Avs game :( and it certainly looked like it was improved. I did not watch it long enough to say it was perfect, but it was much better than the weekend and certainly watchable.

I watched "King of Queens" and "Yes, Dear" and don't remember seeing any lip sync problems, and no audio break up either. At least that I recall.

Later
Joe

Maybe I'll get to watch a little HD CBS tonight - my TV is finally fixed. The question will be do I have enough signal level to watch DT 35?

I only had a few minutes with my fixed TV but my preliminary observation is that the replaced boards screwed up my ISF calibration (wah!). I need to get everything back together and look at the Video Essentials disk to be sure but has anyone used a local ISF tech? I had my set done by L. Carliner when he made a Denver tour so I don't know how good or bad the local ISF guys are - does anyone have any opinions???

Geof-
I had heard that Listen Up was not that good, at least that is what I heard from some others on the forum. I have been talking with a local guy named Alan Brown who owns his own company called CinemaQuest in town (http://www.cinemaquestinc.com) that is ISF certified.

I have not talked with anyone that has used him, but his credentials look good. I will probably have him work on my set in a few months.

- Dustin

Thanks Dustin. Their prices look a little steep but I like the fact that they listed the equipment they will use. Louis did not have an HD generator when he calibrated my set so he had to use my HD STB to upconvert the Ch 3 output of my VCR which was being sourced from my DVD player which was playing the Video Essentials disk (whew!). I was never quite impressed with that rinky-dink setup but it seemed to work. I did notice that the folks you mentioned use an Accupel HD generator which bypasses the VCR upconvert process.

As an aside I almost bought the Accupel HD generator because Pioneer has a screw-up with their convergence grid in the HD mode - the grid stops about 4 inches (or so) from the top of the screen and one has to either guess at the convergence or use an external source to output the grid lines (sad to say but I guess their high prices do not include a full internal convergence grid generator).

Jeffwalter, do recommend any ISF calibrators to your customers??

Geof,

I put together a tour for Michael TLV about 4 months ago. Right after the tour, i got a ton of emails from other interested parties. I did give the list of those people to one who was planning on putting together another tour for Michael. If i can find his name i'll PM you the info. You can email him to see if he's got it together yet. Michael Chen is one of the best (along with Carliner)

Ernie -

I'd be interested in that info as well. I'd love to have Michael Chen come tweak my set.

On another note, I watched JAG tonight on KCNC - audio looked to be in perfect sync to me. Best I've seen it since they went on air.

Thanks for the input on KCNC everyone. I've passed the info on to Dave Layne. JAG also looked good for me tonight. Now, if we can just get KCNC-DT to get their info listed on to the DirecTV APG and have the channel corrected mapped to 4-1 instead of 35-1...

I'd also be interested in having Michael Chen come in to Denver again. I think we would probably need about 10-15 of us to agree to have our sets calibrated and he might be willing to make the trip again.

- Dustin

I can't find the gentleman's name that i gave the list of potentials to after the last ISF tour. Here's Michael's email address. I suggest you just send him quick note to see if he's got any plans in the works.

Michael (TLV) Chen
furrypig01@yahoo.com

If not, maybe one of you guys can organize a new tour for him. Let me know, I can give you all the info on how to do it. It's not too hard. The best perk of putting it together is that Michaels spends a LOT of time on your setup getting it to look perfect!

I agree on JAG - it looked good and had no lipsync issues.

I may be interested in a Michael TLV tour although I probably won't want to wait that long. According to Keohi TV (http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/) he's busy until early March, but I doubt a tour could be organized much sooner than late March/April timeframe. The 1080i colors on my HDTV are decent (not great) but the 480i inputs have a green cast. It's more of a "greenscale" than a greyscale. Color and Tint controls made it a little more tolerable but the I think the Green CRT drive levels need tuning to make it right. It's really nice to have my HDTV back though.....

There is a Planning Commission hearing tonight at 6:00. Hopefully some of us will show up to voice the need for HDTV to go somewhere. I think that since Mt. Morrison is coming before the Planning Commission soon, it could not hurt to start to let them know that people want a solution to the HDTV tower situation. Even if you are opposed to building a tower on Eldorado, you can show up to speak in favor of HDTV, and opposition to Eldorado. Or, just to see what the Planning commission is like, in preparation for voicing support for whatever plan you do like.

Just a thought,

Wabisabi

Where is the planning commission meeting?

Jefferson County administration & Courthouse (aka the "Tajmahal") It is located at the intersection of 6th Ave and C-470. For better directions just look at Jeffco's web site.

Jefferson County (http://co.jefferson.co.us)


It will probably be in the main hearing room, on the administration side.

-Wabisabi

Wabi,
Thanks for the info. I have a conflict tonight so I won't be attending, but having the info out here really helps.
Jeff

Originally posted by Geof

Jeffwalter, do recommend any ISF calibrators to your customers??


Geoff

HomeScene _is_ an ISF shop however I only feel comfortable with video systems that I know ( we are a Marantz, Seleco, Sharp, Zenith/Inteq, Toshiba, and Panasonic shop). In addition, because of our recent product refocusing from singularly CRT (which I _still_ love) to singularly DLP, we need to retrain. Besides, my Sencore gear is not working right.

I have heard nothing bad about either cinemaquestinc.com or cinemasetup.com in Lakewood

Hope to see everyone next week. This will be great.

Again, if a users group wishes to form and KRMA is unable to accomodate, my shop is pretty big (~5500sf) and is always available to advance our cause.

BTW
Soon (toot toot my own horn) we will have HT300, VP12 and Z9000 in one room (HT200DM, vp8100 in the other)


Jeff:D

Thanks Jeff (and Dustin). I've sent them both an email.

Wabisabi, Sorry I could not attend the meeting but thanks for posting the information. Any report on how it went??

Grrr...I would have liked to go tonight, but I ended up having an appliance problem this afternoon...oven went up in smoke (well not literally, but definitely not working anymore), so I ended up shopping for a new one instead. HD is important, but keeping my wife happy is more so. At least it didn't happen to me next Wednesday! Did anyone make it to the meeting?

Edited to add: Just saw this in the programming forum:

CBS HDTV Specials

On Sunday February 10, CBS Television will broadcast the NCAA basketball match up between Ohio State at Michigan State starting at 1:00-3:00PM ET/PT in High Definition Television (HDTV). As with all of CBS High Definition programs, it will be broadcast in the highest HD format that contains 1080 lines of resolution.

Who needs to be emailed at KCNC to make sure that we see this here in Denver?

Not much to say. There was a hearing before the Eldorado one that took until almost 9:00. So, only the applicant, the county and a few homeowners groups were able to speak.

Pinnacle is basically reducing the number of new towers to one, and reducing the buildings accordingly. They also removed the heliport.

Staff is still recommending approval with conditions.

People near Eldorado still do not like it.

What is new is that some CARE people actually spoke at this hearing saying basically that if Jeffco feels that it must approve a tower, it should be where it would impact the fewest people (Eldorado).

The hearing was continued until Feb 13th @ 6:00. (with no other cases to be heard that night.)

-Wabisabi

Thanks for the update. Sounds like what we've heard and read. We have a much more important (and interesting) meeting to attend on Feb 13th.

In this morning's Boulder Daily Camera there is a report on last nights meeting.

http://www.thedailycamera.com/news/county/07ltowr.html

I hadn't heard about their stock prices dropping even further. I'm not sure this should sway the JeffCo planners one way or the other but the JeffCo Commissioners might be interested. As some already know, Pinnacle paid a HUGE price for the Eldorado property and they will put up a good fight to be able to develop it. Given their current financial condition one has to wonder if they can afford to do so if JeffCo decides in their favor.

Yes, I guess if you can overlook the fact that Pinnacle is apparently likely to go Chapter 11 within a few weeks (which may mean they will have to sell assets to pay creditors), and the fact that they have no stations contracted to use the antenna, Eldorado may be a good location. Hey, at least they have (S)CARE backing their application.

As I have been saying for several years here in the forum, I think the best bet for HD in this area is still going to have to be Lookout Mt. (and maybe KRMA on Mt. Morrison). I think the best thing we can still do is too support the KRMA and LCG applications as much as possible and hope they do their homework and put in quality applications this time.

I'm not overlooking that fact. I don't think the JeffCo planning and zoning commission should be looking at that though - the application either meets JeffCo requirements or it doesn't - I think that's their job. I think the County Commissioners have a responsibility to look at the bigger picture though and that's whay I said they might be interested - Pinnacle's financial health and their viability to execute their plan should be considered at that level.

I have not changed my stance - Lookout is where the TV towers belong but I fully support KRMA's Morrison application. I support the Morrison effort in the belief (perhaps errantly) that if approved the LCG tower would be a bit more viable on Lookout.

Originally posted by markdl


CBS HDTV Specials

On Sunday February 10, CBS Television will broadcast the NCAA basketball match up between Ohio State at Michigan State starting at 1:00-3:00PM ET/PT in High Definition Television (HDTV). As with all of CBS High Definition programs, it will be broadcast in the highest HD format that contains 1080 lines of resolution.

Who needs to be emailed at KCNC to make sure that we see this here in Denver?

It will be broadcast here in Denver..

The Audio will still be Dolby 2.0, but the Video will be 1080I as is the rest of the Primetime stuff.. only difference from this and our Primetime is that the playoff's will be broadcast Live and not tape delayed..

Thanatos,

Do you have any idea why the KCNC signal varies day by day (at my location at least)? Somedays I get a decent signal and other days I don't get enough signal to allow my receiver to ouput a usable picture....

BTW, great job on the lipsync issues - can you call KDVR and tell them how to fix their problem :p

Not been a great night for KCNC tonight. First, they either had problems with the first 15 minutes of the first CSI tonight, or forgot to flip the switch, because it wasn't HD until 7:15 or so. Then about 10 mintes ago on the 2nd CSI the sound went completely haywire - more static than sound. There's been static all night long, and now the sound is almost completely gone. Lip sync was good though...

Edit: Sound got fixed on KCNC during the last commercial break of CSI - about 8:45 or so. Hopefully things are fixed now tonight. Is it just me, or has KCNC had problems of one kind or another just about every Thursday night since they went live? At least they're working on it.

One more edit: The Agency was very good - no sound problems at all, and only 1 video dropout that I remember. Good to see that they are there monitoring the broadcast and working to fix problems as quickly as possible.

While we are all making calls to KCNC and KDVR abour lip synch problems etc. don't forget about Colorado's Leader KUSA. Might not be a bad idea to call them and thank them for their excellent :mad: coverage of the Olympics in HD. Perhaps we should flood the desk with calls informing them we are unable to pick up their DTV signal and asking them to fix that problem ASAP so the people of Denver can watch the Olympics in HD. Just ask them how soon the DTV transmitters will be repaired and on the air.



:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Does anyone have the names of station managers and/or technical point of contacts at each Denver station? I want to print up "form" letters directed to these individuals and have my walk-in customers sign them. I would like to do this today, as the weekend rush begins. I will then mail them to each station manager. I might also CC local county government officials.

The letter's content will politely express displeasure with the lack of HD availability here in Denver, the station's unwillingness to lobby for antenna resolution, the inconsistency of current programming quality (for those who are currently broadcasting), and chide those who are not even trying.

Jeff

Jeff,
I have this information at home. I can post it this evening if no one does so earlier.

jm said,Might not be a bad idea to call them and thank them for their excellent coverage of the Olympics in HD. Perhaps we should flood the desk with calls informing them we are unable to pick up their DTV signal and asking them to fix that problem ASAP so the people of Denver can watch the Olympics in HD. Just ask them how soon the DTV transmitters will be repaired and on the air. I'm sure that if we're polite they'll invite us down to their studios to watch the HD network feed ---------- NOT.

Originally posted by JMartinko
While we are all making calls to KCNC and KDVR abour lip synch problems etc. don't forget about Colorado's Leader KUSA. Might not be a bad idea to call them and thank them for their excellent :mad: coverage of the Olympics in HD. Perhaps we should flood the desk with calls informing them we are unable to pick up their DTV signal and asking them to fix that problem ASAP so the people of Denver can watch the Olympics in HD. Just ask them how soon the DTV transmitters will be repaired and on the air.

I agree. At least the other stations are attempting to support HD, it may take some time to get all of the kinks works out, but at least they are trying. Unlike KUSA.

I wrote a feedback to them saying that it is pathetic that they won't be able to bring HD Olympics coverage to Denver and that we would instead have to rely on Mark Cuban's HDNet. I don't understand why they are so against a low power solution when everyone including PBS is already doing this. We all know that a tower compromise with all parties is at least 2-3 years away, which means if they won't go low power then as HD grows over the next few years then their viewership will continue to decline with viewers looking to other alternatives (such as HDNet) and other networks for HD programming.

- Dustin

This is about the same things that were being said last year with regards to KCNC. It seemed that our group gained some momentum when confronted with what we were missing out on CBS ( playoffs, Super Bowl, Final 4 ) My belief is that missing out on the Olympics in HD will provide our little community with additional fire that will be directed towards KUSA this time around. I think that we will see them start to "consider" a Low power solution as a Public Relations move soon after the Olympics.

I have been lax about staying after KUSA as NBC never offered anything that I cared whether I was missing or not. I know that the Leno show probably looks as good as ANYTHING we get around here for HD quality, but that was all there was. Even though I get HDNET and will watch via that route, I will be writing letters and sending emails, etc. to protest KUSA's lack of HD for the Olympics.

Just a thought.

Jeff

I'd like to know when the new Lookout proposal will be given to JeffCo. I could live without having KUSA having a low power setup if that application is "right around the corner". KMGH has a low power setup but it only serves the "lucky 7". The low power setups may relieve some of the pent up demand in the nearby areas but it doesn't help folks in Ft Collins, or the mountains, etc.

IMO, we need to pressure all of the local stations to pursue the "final" solution....anything other than that is just a stop gap interim solution that may satisfy some of us but it also takes some of the heat off of the stations to push for the "final" solution.....food for thought.....

I wonder how quickly antenna tower issues would get resolved if the Front Range had a windstorm for the ages that destroyed all ability to even send out current analog broadcasts to everybody that benefits from them. Think it would take an inordinate amount of time in that scenario? Or would certain groups propose people just do without TV altogether then for a year or two regardless.

Dan, they probably could rebuild per existing rules but maybe not. However, the concept is exactly right on point. Over a year ago I questioned how long it would take to resolve the issues if the stations could make money off of the digital towers. Lickity-split would be my bet. Again, I remain convinced the (S)CARE threat remains a convenient excuse.

The KRMA Morrison proposal may test my theory. I suspect KRMA has done their homework and if that's the case then we will find out just how feasible any new tower in the (S)CARE neighborhood is going to be.

Well I get the feeling that in a scenario like that (albeit a stupidly hypothetical one) that there'd be 2 Fed's surveying the twisted crumpled steel. One would be telling the folks that gathered.. "We're sorry, but this *is* where a new and better (in every sense of the word) tower is going to be built because it's been known for decades that this is the best place in this region".

While the other Fed is on his cell phone talking to a truck driver thats toting a crane.. "You take Exit 256 off I-70 and keep driving up the hill to you see a group of folks that has expressions on their faces like the neighborhood kids did when it became apparent that Billy's puppy ran away for good".

Too bad the Fed's arent ready to do this yet in the current state of affairs.

One of the items we might want to discuss when we meet at Channel 6 next Wednesday is how we get the same kind of audience with the powers-that-be at 9 and 7.

Maybe if we show them we are serious about wanting more HD, they might be pursuaded to listen. It seems to me that putting bodies on the problem is better than another barrage of e-mail.

Mike

Here is a response I got from 9News about my HD Rant. Probably similar to what others have seen though. This was from Don Perez, who is the VP of Engineering at KUSA:

From: Perez Don
Subject: FW: No NBC Olympics coverage in High Definition Cc: PF
Thank you for your note. As you mentioned, the zoning issues have unfortunately been problematic in our area. A new plan will be submitted shortly and every effort is being made for its success. Again, as you mentioned this will not be quick to implement. A low power temporary solution is not off the table. It is being considered, but the focus has been on the best long term solution for all of our viewers. Again, thank you for your note.


Apparently, the LCG is trying something with their latest application but will it really be acceptable by Jeffco and (S)Care??

I agree that we should try to get some face to face dialog with some people at 7 and 9. We might get a little more info that way.

- Dustin

Don't forget about KCNC. Low power is not answering everyone's needs...it's not the answer.

I think there is a strong possibility we can arrange a similar meeting with some of the LCG members after their application is submitted. I am not sure how cooperative KUSA will be though. I think it will be easier to get the guys that are on the air to support such a meeting. Any rep KUSA would send would have to know he was meeting a pretty hostile crowd since they have made no effort on the HD front. That I why I think it will be easier to set up a meeting with some of the other stations after the LCG applications are in. I will certainly work on that very thing. I am hoping we can shed some light on the time schedule for that LCG application next week at KRMA. I had thought it would be submitted by now.

In the meantime we obviously need to support KRMA in their own efforts on Mt. Morrison. I think that the fact that Jeffco sees support growing for the Mt. Morrison/Lookout solution can only help. Be prepared for plenty of well organized opposition from the (S)CARE folks in all of this though. Their property values will increase dramatically if they can rid Lookout of the towers, so they will have plenty of incentive.


:mad: :mad: :mad:

BTW, I just got this note back from Don Perez of KUSA. I had written them an email asking where I could find their HD feed since I had read that NBC was carrying the Olympics on a delay and that according to the FCC, 75% of the country had access to DTV and nearly every city in the top 50 markets was on the air.
:rolleyes:

***********


Thank you for your note. We do not transmit any HDTV programming at this
time. The timeline to start this service is directly linked to the zoning
approval to build a new facility. As you may know, our earlier attempt to
get this approval was not successful(this was in conjunction with a number
of other local broadcasters). A new joint plan will be submitted to
Jefferson County in the next couple of months. It will take several months
for this to work its way through their process. We are committed to bring
HDTV to all of our viewers as soon as we reasonably can. We will transmit
HDTV programming on Ch. 16 at the point we are on the "air". Again, thank
for your interest in HDTV

************

Glad to see that serious commitment from "Colorado's Leader"!
:mad:

Gee, I wonder why he didn't mention the coverage would be available on HDNet??????
:D

A new joint plan will be submitted to Jefferson County in the next couple of months.

This sounds like a moving target...why am I not encouraged by these words???

I think it is basically the same form letter they have been sending out for months.

Yup, I think that someone like David Layne from KCNC would be very supportive of our group. He and his team have been heavily committed to getting their HD signal looking and sounding good with the current low power solution. He would be a good contact to include for discussions.

- Dustin

David Lane is already on my list of contacts. I suspect if the dates are right he would be willing to meet us. I am really more interested in getting the stations that have done little or nothing to get together with us. They need to be put on notice that there are people in the area that are getting angry about all of this. I just sent off a note back to KUSA asking them if they would be willing to support a meeting with area HDTV enthusiasts at some point in the future. I will let you all know if I hear back. (Don't hold your breath.)

KRMA-DT will air a new Spirit of Colorado program on Saturday, February 9th at 7:30 called "The Good Earth". It will be broadcast in its native 1080i format on KRMA-DT 18.

I hope you enjoy it!

I look forward to meeting many of you next Wednesday at the station.

Bud Rath
Director of Engineering
Rocky Mountain PBS

I also noticed that there was a local Denver chapter of the SMPTE that has a web site:
http://www.smpte-sbe48.org/

I wonder if these guys are interested in supporting HD?? I know that many of the station engineers and such are members of this group.

According to their web site, they just had a meeting where someone from Zenith presented on 8VSB.

- Dustin

Originally posted by Buddy
KRMA-DT will air a new Spirit of Colorado program on Saturday, February 9th at 7:30 called "The Good Earth". It will be broadcast in its native 1080i format on KRMA-DT 18.

I hope you enjoy it!

I look forward to meeting many of you next Wednesday at the station.

Bud Rath
Director of Engineering
Rocky Mountain PBS

Bud
Thanks for the programming update. I think our count is now somewhere between 25 and 30. I am sure the group is looking forward to meeting you as well.

Thanks Bud,
I'll definitely try to catch that program and I'm looking forward to meeting everyone.

FYI: I have made arrangements to have my set ISF'd. He will be doing color and greyscale for 480i, 480p and 1080i modes and he will also converge the 1080i mode (the Elite 610 convergence grid does not cover the top few inches of the screen in the 1080i mode - dumb design). Mark at Cinemasetup will be doing the work. I will post my thoughts when the job is complete (it's scheduled for next Friday).

Originally posted by Geof
FYI: I have made arrangements to have my set ISF'd. He will be doing color and greyscale for 480i, 480p and 1080i modes and he will also converge the 1080i mode (the Elite 610 convergence grid does not cover the top few inches of the screen in the 1080i mode - dumb design). Mark at Cinemasetup will be doing the work. I will post my thoughts when the job is complete (it's scheduled for next Friday).

Geof-
Definately let us know what you think, as I would like to have my Elite 520 ISF'd soon. How do their prices look as compared to the others you looked at?

- Dustin

Using the AccessDTV in a borrowed HTPC, I was able to record and view KMGH movie of Patch Adams recorded in native 720P and output that way to my projector. It looked much improved over the upconversion using the DTC100. While I doubt I will ever re-watch that one again, I am really looking forward to Raiders of the Lost Ark from KMGH on the 17th.

Really looking forward to meeting with all of you next week.

Jeff

Anyone else in Denver seeing problems with HDNet? Picture is very shaky, almost like in Slo-mo. They had a brief pre-olympics spot. It was in 5.1 audio. Although with the picture problem, it was hard to watch. I am wondering if it is having to do with the strong wind gusts in the Denver area now. Anyone else seeing these problems on HDNet?


- Dustin

I am seeing the same problems today as well. First ever problems with 199. 509 fine.

Jeff

Dustin,
The Cinemasetup ISF prices seem reasonable (cough, cough). It is less than the prices on the cinemaquest web site. Cinemaquest never returned my email and did not answer the phone when I called. Don't know if that portends anything but nonetheless it didn't give me a warm fuzzy. Too bad ISF'ing costs so much tho....

I watched the opening ceremonies on Ch 9 last night and again this evening on HDNet (which is coming in fine now). God what a difference - NTSC really bites...Thanks KUSA - I'll watch the HDNet version.

Just got through watching the show Bud alerted us to. It's nice to see Spirit of Colorado in true 1080i. The bee segmnet was incredible. Hoping theres more new episodes on the horizon.

Thanks KRMA :)

Caught The Good Earth too. Quite nice. The only thing "wrong" with it was the 30 minute length....could have been longer. Thanks KRMA.

Can currently get 18 (80), 35-2, and 32-1 all between 88 and 96%, but no NBC (are they 17-1?)

What part of the Denver area is there antenna broadcasting from???

Also, when I tune 35-1, it comes in with signal strength of 92%, but no feed (audio or video), what gives?

17.1 and .2 are ABC originating from atop of KMGH's studio downtown. 18 and 35 are originating from atop of Republic Plaza. All 3 of these are makeshift/temporary low power solutions until the tower issue on Lookout Mtn is resolved. 32 is already coming from Lookout Mtn, but it isnt full power either.

KUSA NBC does not have any sort of digital signal at all yet. They havent opted for a temporary solution at this time.

35.1 is presumably a subchannel with no audio or video. The KCNC main signal is on 35.2

Originally posted by Jetlag
Can currently get 18 (80), 35-2, and 32-1 all between 88 and 96%, but no NBC (are they 17-1?)

What part of the Denver area is there antenna broadcasting from???

Also, when I tune 35-1, it comes in with signal strength of 92%, but no feed (audio or video), what gives?

Welcome to the forum Jetlag.

KUSA will be DT 16 someday. They have, so far, refused to do any HD (including low power): You cannot pick them up because they are not transmitting.

Thanks for the quick/great answers.

I am located roughly 1 mile east-southeast of downtown and am using a 2X double bow-tie which is aimed west-northwest (I believe that is the direction of Republic Plaza). Wonder why (since I'm closer to KMGH than the plaza) I don't receive 17?


Also, am going to try to make the upcoming meeting, but may be out of town working.

Jetlag, they aint. KUSA-DT NBC does not exist in Denver. They will be 16-1, and I will leave it at that cause I nothing nice to say about that.
17-1 is KMGH-DT, and is you live within 3 miles of the xmitter, then you can get ABC. I live 11 miles from downtown, and I get ZERO on it, as well as many others in the Metro area.

I applaude KCNC-DT (channel 35 ) for their efforts, as I was watching "The District" last night, what a picture!

6-1 KRMA-DT is ALWAYS spectacular, thanx KRMA!

31-1 is KDVR-DT channel 32, FOX, the 16:9 picture, if that what it is has nice quality somewhat, and it aint HDTV, nor is it EDTV. I am still waiting for the 480p signal, which would be an improvement.

A little mouse told me that KWGN-DT, WB, channel 2 will be up and running soon. That will be digital channel 34. No word on UPN, channel 20 or digital channel 19. They are part of the LCG, if I have my info. straight.

See the long, long "Status of Denver Tower" thread for more info.
terms you should be familiar with after your research:

C-A-R-E, and their website
Coal Creek Canyon Homeowners Association
Republic Plaza
JeffCo Planning Commission
LCG
Mt. Morrison
Lookout Mountain
Eldorado Mountain
Squaw Mountain
Boulder County Quiet Zone
Pinnacle towers
The Daily Camera
Genessee
NIMBY

Thanx and welcome !

The Denver Post has a nice article today about Mark Cuban and HD-Net covering the NHL. It talks about hockey being hard to watch on TV, which is why it has the lowest ratings of the 4 major sports. But that HDTV is changing that.

In the article, Cuban said that all NHL games will be broadcast in HD in the next 5 to 7 years. Others, of course, disagree because of money (ESPN).

I was going to post this in the HD-Programming forum, but I can't find it on the denverpost.com website. Can anyone help me with a link?

The story is on page 8D of the sports section, and written by Allan Kreda of the Bloomberg News.

-Mike

Originally posted by Jetlag
Wonder why (since I'm closer to KMGH than the plaza) I don't receive 17?


Probably just have to experiment more with your antenna placement specifically when you're trying to lock 17 on the setup menu for local digital. Even if it makes the placement different from where you have it now, it shouldnt adversely affect the other channels that you are getting very much.

It's not a station issue because I'm getting 17 fine this morning.

Someone asked last week how to get to the KRMA studios. I thought I would post the information closer to the meeting time so it would be easier for people to find. For those who don't know, the address is:

KRMA Channel 6
Rocky Mountain PBS
1089 Bannock Street
Denver, CO 80204


Phone: 303-892-6666


I will assume you all have Internet access :D so you can find a streetmap link on the KRMA contact page at

http://www.rmpbs.org/aboutus/krma.html

If you need directions from your home, use the address in the driving directions page of Mapquest at:
http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp


As has been discussed, the discussions will start at 7 PM but KRMA will welcome people starting at 6 PM. Those arriving early can use the time to get acquainted with each other. The folks at KRMA are anxious to meet you all. Be sure to thank them for their effort in letting us meet in their facilities. See you all there.

PS (Edited) For those who missed the last two weeks of postings, the meeting is Wed. Feb. 13.

Originally posted by Geof
Do you have any idea why the KCNC signal varies day by day (at my location at least)? Somedays I get a decent signal and other days I don't get enough signal to allow my receiver to ouput a usable picture....

Broadcasting is sometime almost done by Magic it seems.. There could be several reasons.. Some applicable, some not. There is no way to be sure what is the cause of the changing signal levels.. there are several reasons this could happen.. Whether or not this is the cause for your particular situation remains to be seen.

One of the things that can effect your reception is Tropospheric bending (Or Scatter).. This can happen in one of two ways.. Tropo Ducting, and Tropo Non-Ducting.

On calm sunny days a layer of warm air can become trapped beneath a cooler layer of air. This condition is known as "temperature inversion". The effect that it causes allows the a signal to find a slightly longer path to the viewers set, as it bends back towards earth, returning from 4 to 7 miles above ground level. This causes interference to the primary signal from our transmitter. The picture begins to "pulsate" and shortly lines appear, if the refracted signal is strong, the picture may be completely disrupted. (this "Pulsating" effect can be seen in Analog Transmissions, but Digital, the very nature of the medium prevents you from seeing this. But watching your Signal Level meter on your receiver, you should see some movement).

This effect clears up once the wind blows and begins to mix the different air masses.

You may want to read about Tropo Ducting here: http://www.quercus.demon.co.uk/ducts.html


Denver, as you know is a special weather place, we have what is called "The Brown Cloud".. it hovers over the city and does not blow away as you think it would, as the day get's warmer, the cloud get's thicker, then as it gets colder, the cloud dissipates.. This phenomenon has the effect of creating lots of "Temperature Inversions" in the Denver and Platte River areas..

Here is a Quote from NOAA Meteorological Observational and Analysis Support 1996-1997 Northern Front Range Air Quality Study (NFRAQS) (http://www7.etl.noaa.gov/programs/NFRAQS/)


"Warm westerly winds several hundred meters aloft and light, cool easterly winds near the surface enhance the low-level temperature inversion creating strong trapping conditions unless there is a strong differential acceleration of the wind across the inversion layer. During the Brown Cloud field study, the inversion often proved remarkably resistant to erosion by the strong westerly winds above it"

These "Inversions" can effect ANY HF, VHF, and UHF Frequency differently.. and can effect particular frequencies within a frequency band and not others.. This "Bubble" can defract the RF so that it is pointed away from a receiver in a particular area of town and receivers that could not pick up our signal before, will now get a very strong reception.. Then that reception can disappear till the next Inversion happens.

Since we are such low power, and you may be on a fringe of one of our "Lobes".. you may see the signal disappear durning parts of the day to have it return on others.. and it will be different if it is a windy day or a calm day..

So, again, it is difficult to predict if you will be able to receive our signal at any particular time.. normally, at full broadcast power, most of this would not matter as part or most of the signal will be able to reach your receiver..

Now, here another wrench to throw into the gears of all this.. KWGN Ch-2 is scheduled to begin broadcasting full power from their Main Transmitter soon.. They are on a channel right next to ours.. DT-34. Here's the Rub.. Because they will be broadcasting as a much higher power then us.. Some Receivers may see the increased energy on the adjacent channel and basically will not tune us in.. even though we are on a different frequency.. The FCC when they set the standard assumed that Adjacent Channel Broadcasting for DTV was ok as the Channel separation is much sharply defined in the Digital Transmission then it is in the Analog Transmissions.. BUT, this theory was assumed to be when BOTH Transmitters were located at the SAME Location and Broadcasting with the SAME power.. Since we have a Temporary Transmitter Far Away from KWGN's transmitter and we are broadcasting at a much lower power... They may very well take us "Off the Air" by saturating the Band..

Who Knows.. nobody has done any testing of this particular situation so guess what?? You guys will be our Eyes and Ears to let us know if this will happen...

Hopefully this helps a little bit on the signal fades.. it is not a definitive answer, and especially not an informed one based upon empirical data.. But it is an informed guess..

Thanatos

Great answers Thanatos. Thanks much for the response.

I was thinking I was on the fringe of a lobe but I'll try to see if the reception correlates with the weather (inversions).

I hadn't thought of DT34 messing with the DT35 reception but you are exactly right in that it may happen - depending on the geometry of the situation, the directional gain characteristics of the antenna, and upon the receiver in use. It will probably spell doom for folks on the fringe like myself because I will get a full unobstructed "blast" off of Lookout.

One more day till the meeting and I'm ready for it now:)

If you haven't stated your intention to attend that's okay, come on anyway - last I heard there were still seats at the table. If you want to hear the news from the horses mouth (so to speak) take a break from your usual Wednesday routine...

I am not 100% sure but I think it likely that there will be some things discussed that KRMA would rather not have posted (here or anywhere else) so a meeting recap may not cover everything that was discussed.

For those of us that will not be able to attend the meeting, could someone either take careful notes, or even better, get it on audio/video tape?

Thanks, Tim

Okay, You can start laughing now. I've taken a shot at wording a petition....remember I'm an Engineer with a so-so set of writing skills (which I've demonstrated countless times). Please post any comments or suggestions here (or send me a PM)...

Anyway here it is:

Note: I've deleted this version so as to only keep one version posted at any point in time....the updated version is below...

Comments are still welcome.

Geof
Nice job. I think it could easily stand on its own.

Since you did ask for comments, I might amend the last paragraph with a comment that "the delay in approvals by Jefferson County has resulted in Colorado being the only top 30 television market to be without the mandated DTV transmitters. If there are design issues in the submitted applications for Lookout and Mt. Morrison, the commissioners should arrange to work directly with the LCG members to resolve those issues rather than simply reject the applications as previously done." In my mind, that is why the "time for debate and continued waiting is over".

Just my $0.02. A nice job even without my suggestions.

I'm not sure that JeffCo hasn't worked with the stations - I think they have at the zoning level - and to some extent I think they have informally.

Looks good to me. My comments were simply meant to stress that both parties need to get together and do what it takes to get the stations on the air. Enough of the BS and the finger pointing. It is time for all parties to do what it takes to get on with the DTV transition. I think your petition says that quite well. Nicely done.

BTW, I don't know if my friend from Listen Up will be at the meeting tomorrow. His mother died last week and he has not yet come back to work. I am sure he will support us when the time comes and help get that petition distributed. He had previously told me that management had said that LU would help us however they can.

I sent info to my LU salesman in the Denver store and he said he would pass it along to the right folks. I am hopeful they will have a representative at the meeting....

I'm not sure when this happened but I noticed that CH 35-1 was missing from my Mit's HD APG. I called up the channel list and noticed 4-1 is now listed as KCNCDT by DirecTv....the guiide now lists all programs for KCNC-DT - COOL!

Yeah, ya beat me to it Geof! I notice Titantv.com now has listings for 35 also. Which makes sense I suppose cause when I emailed them asking about it, and if they worked with DirecTv's APG listings as well, they replied back that Tribune was responsible for both, and that they were waiting on them. Apparently Tribune got the job done today :)

Oh, and great job on the letter too. Well done!

I am also seeing 4-1 KCNC-DT. Dave Layne mentioned to me that they were working with PSIP data, so it looks like their going now.

- Dustin

Did anybody else have problems last night with Jag? I got no sound at all. Well I take that back, I think the programming that was inserted locally had sound.

Anybody else?

Thanks
Joe

Is anyone going near/through Brighton tonight after the meeting? I work downtown and I'd rather not drive my wife and daughter (21 months -- probably not too helpful at a meeting like this) all the way back to Brighton and then come back downtown before the meeting. If someone could give me a lift to Brighton afterwards, that would be great. Otherwise, I'll be racking up some frequent driver miles after work today.

dr_mal,

I'll be driving back up to the northeast side of Thornton after the meeting. I can give you a ride.

Don

dr_mal,

My reply wasn't that clear. I can give you a ride to Brighton (you don't have to arrange a ride from Thornton to Brighton).

Don

Thanks Don!

I'm looking forward to meeting everyone tonight.

I will not be attending tonight's KRMA meeting. I will be attending the Eldorado hearing. I think it is important that someone from this forum attend. I would appreciate a re-cap of the KRMA meeting from someone.

The reality check part of this post is that I just realized that Pinnacle first applied for rezoning in November of 2000.

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi
I will not be attending tonight's KRMA meeting. I will be attending the Eldorado hearing. I think it is important that someone from this forum attend. I would appreciate a re-cap of the KRMA meeting from someone.

The reality check part of this post is that I just realized that Pinnacle first applied for rezoning in November of 2000.

-Wabisabi

I'm sure a recap (or recaps) will be posted on the forum. Thanks for attending the Pinnacle hearing. Speaking of recaps, we'd appreciate a recap of that hearing :)

Yes, 11/00 - dreadfully long ago. I think KRMA will start their process next month but the LCG application timing is still a big question. 2004 still looks like the timeframe for them and that's if they get approved. I don't even want to think about when we'll see them on the air if their next application is rejected (it's probably beyond 2006)........

Geof said: Yes, 11/00 - dreadfully long ago. I think KRMA will start their process next month but the LCG application timing is still a big question.

Actually, KRMA "started" their process when they filed their application, in Sept of 2001. I think they will start before the Planning Commission in March, about 6 months after they filed.

- Wabisabi

jm,

Please check you PM about tonight.

Thanks,

-Mike

Actually, KRMA "started" their process when they filed their application, in Sept of 2001. I think they will start before the Planning Commission in March, about 6 months after they filed.

Good point. I did not word it correctly. I meant they would start before the Planning Commission...

Will you let us know when the LCG "starts" their process (when they file their application)??

Originally posted by JMartinko
Someone asked last week how to get to the KRMA studios. I thought I would post the information closer to the meeting time so it would be easier for people to find. For those who don't know, the address is:

KRMA Channel 6
Rocky Mountain PBS
1089 Bannock Street
Denver, CO 80204


Phone: 303-892-6666


I will assume you all have Internet access :D so you can find a streetmap link on the KRMA contact page at

http://www.rmpbs.org/aboutus/krma.html

If you need directions from your home, use the address in the driving directions page of Mapquest at:
http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp


As has been discussed, the discussions will start at 7 PM but KRMA will welcome people starting at 6 PM. Those arriving early can use the time to get acquainted with each other. The folks at KRMA are anxious to meet you all. Be sure to thank them for their effort in letting us meet in their facilities. See you all there.

PS (Edited) For those who missed the last two weeks of postings, the meeting is Wed. Feb. 13.

Bumping this to the bottom of the thread <grin>

See ya'll there!

-John

PS. Wabisabi, I hadn't caught that the Pinnacle application was carried over to tonight's hearing. Please do report back the results as we will keep you up on what happens at the KRMA meeting. Thanks!

Well, it's 6:00 already and I haven't been able to even get close to leaving tonight. Unfortunately, it looks like I will be unable to attend :( :(
I look forward to any recap you lucky folks feel like sharing.

My regrets.

Jeff

Just got back from the meeting tonight at KRMA. I'll post my detailed thoughts after I've had a little time to process it all, but for now I just want to say a huge THANK YOU! to the folks at KRMA for opening up their doors to us tonight. I don't know about the rest of you, but I learned a great deal tonight about how this process works. These people really care about what they are doing - certainly financially, but also about getting we, the viewers, the best product available. They obviously love what they are doing, and want to succeed every bit as much as we want them to.

Now if only the other stations in this city were as outgoing as KRMA has been tonight...

Looking forward to hearing the reports from everyone who was there. Tell us everything!

I too got stuck working and had to meet a deadline. Can't wait to hear all the details.

The Planning Commission voted unanimously to recommend that the Board of County Commissioners deny the pinacle tower application for all the same basic reasons as before, except that noise levels were no longer a concern.

The biggest surprise was that some (but not all) CARE residents spoke not in support of Eldorado, but in opposition, saying that they could not in good faith look their kids in the eyes and explain why the towers were bad on Lookout, but OK on Eldorado.

The other big surprise was that Pinnacle got the Captain of Fairmount Fire Protection District to testify that he drove to the top of Eldorado in a 2-wheel-drive fire truck and had no problems, and that his district would be willing to provide fire protection for Eldorado once certain legal procedures were met. (it always seemed to me like the Coal Creek Canyon Fire District was being a little bit extreme in their stance that the road was an impassable hazard)

Anyway, it is late and I must get some sleep.

-Wabisabi

P.S. I am looking forward to hearing how the KRMA meeting went.

So how do the sCARE residents look their kids in the eyes and explain why they don't move away from the evil towers to a "safer" part of town? "Yes, Johnny, these towers cause cancer, but instead of taking you to a safe zone, we're going to keep you here under their shadow and hope we can get them taken down."

Gimme a break.

Good one dr_mal....


The meeting last night at KRMA was enjoyable. James, Bud, Tom, and Tiffany answered everyone's questions. The KRMA proposal was submitted last September and will be heard by the Jefferson County Planning board on March 13th (beginning at 6 PM) and then again on March 27th (beginning at 1:30 PM) (I think that second date is correct). KRMA is proposing a single tower that will either be vertical (260 ft) or horizontal (less than 200 ft tall). The tower will replace an existing tower on Morrison (PAX - Ch 59) and will serve KRMA TV (Ch6), KRMA DT (Ch 18), two FM stations (KUVO and KVOD) and PAX (Ch 59). If this is approved, and once it is built, KRMA will tear down their Lookout facilities, which will rid Lookout of KRMA TV and several FM stations. It's clear that this will result in lower RF emissions on Lookout reducing heath and interference arguments that (S)CARE may present. The vertical tower will be lit with a daytime strobe and at night with a red light. This meets FAA requirements but minimizes visual impact because it will not have to be painted red and white. The horizontal tower will be even less of a visual impact because it's not as tall and does not need to comply with any FAA requirements. This "tower" will be not be seen from Red Rocks because of terrain and camouflaging.

Personally I think the horizontal tower is an exciting concept and I think either KRMA tower design addresses several key concerns raised in earlier attempts to get JeffCo approval. From what I can tell both approaches satisfy the Jefferson County Telecommunications Land Use Plan.

CH 6 needs our support, not with fundraising (ok, with that too) but with getting JeffCo to believe there is a demand and with having them hear the other side of the story. (S)CARE and other "nay-sayers" have always "out-vocaled" the advocates in previous attempts and this needs to change. If folks do not belly up to support KRMA and if JeffCo only hears from the detractors then this is going to go down in flames. From my own perspective this is the way it should be - majority rules - ergo KRMA needs to counter (S)CARE and other detractors. This is best achieved with residents of JeffCo but we non-resident "aliens" can help too. All of us are affected by the decision JeffCo makes we need to make sure they (JeffCo) understand they are making decisions that have implications far beyond their county borders. To this end KRMA has put together an "information pack" that will help guide everyone with writing a personal letter. KRMA made it clear that personal letters are best. We need to send them to JeffCo Planning, JeffCo Commissioners, and send letters to the editors of various newspapers. Indeed, we need to win in the court of public opinion and we need to match the (S)CARE "vote". This sounds like a lot of work but it's not going to be that painful. 15 minutes of your time may go a long long way - our voices need to be heard and they will be counted.

Contact Tiffany for a copy of the information pack (CARE members need not apply). Tiffany's email: tiffany_tyson@krma.pbs.org

We will also proceed with a petition, but not an online petition - real paper copies only. I will post an updated petition draft shortly. Once the draft stage is complete I will craft a Word document and ask various members to send me a PM with your email address. I'll send you the word doc and ask you to print out several copies and take it down to your local ListenUp or Soundtrack and ask the manager if they can have folks sign it. It would be nice if we can get most of the stores covered. You may also wish to take a copy to work and pester your co-workers.

We are the grassroots folks who can help make this happen....

Our letters and petition copies have to be submitted to JeffCo prior to the March 13th hearing (probably several days beforehand). We don't have a lot of time. We need to go to work or stop b!tching about low power because that's probably all we'll see for a very long time.

No word was given (and little was said) about the LCG application. It is expected to be submitted shortly. It will likely take 6 months or so to reach the JeffCo Planning Board docket and then it will take awhile for that process to complete. It will probably be fall before the Commissioners vote yeah or nay (KRMA gave no specific timeline - but one can look at past history to get an approximate timeline).

We were also given a pretty neat tour of the KRMA facility. No time to talk that now but thanks to Tom for the tour and a BIG thanks to KRMA.

Whoops, almost forgot, there is a Mt Morrison Replacement Tower Web site (http://www.mtmorrisontower.org).

The latest draft petition....let me know your thoughts - I want to get this finalized....We the undersigned hereby affirm that we live in Colorado and rely upon television broadcasts from the Denver area television stations. We support High Definition Television (HDTV) and want the current TV tower zoning issues resolved so that all of our local stations can broadcast digital television signals as mandated by the United States Congress and the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). We hereby respectfully request Jefferson County Officials consider not only the desires of their county residents but also the needs of all Front Range residents who depend on television transmitting facilities located in Jefferson County.

The current zoning impasse has forced several broadcasters to transmit low power digital signals from downtown Denver. This temporary arrangement is not an acceptable solution because many of us are unable to receive these broadcasts. Digital broadcast standards are Federally mandated but Denver is significantly behind all major U.S. TV markets in broadcasting HDTV. Many of us will be denied access to this new technology until new broadcast towers are approved and constructed. The Lookout Mountain and Mount Morrison area has served (and continues to serve) not only the television broadcasters needs, but also the needs of all Front Range residents who receive television signals using an antenna. As such, new broadcast facilities belong in this area, where they have been historically located and where they will replace older facilities.

We believe the time has come to move forward with this new technology and that the time for debate and continued waiting is over. As such, your vision and guidance in approving Lookout Mountain and/or Mount Morrison sites will positively impact millions of people, and several generations of residents, as we move forward into the new millennium.

Geof,
Thanks for the recap, it sounds like last night was a terrible meeting to miss. I hated to miss out on the information and getting to know all of you a little better.

I, for one, will be out of the country on March 13, but would hopefully be available to go and speak in favor of the KRMA proposal at the second Jeffco hearing. I am a Jeffco resident, but would like to know if KRMA would be willing to coach any of us or provide some guidance as to what might help them the most ( in their eyes ).

From attending past meetings, the public commentary is better organized and presented by most of CARE and "our side" comes off as unprepared and basically in the category of "WE WANT OUR HDTV" with little substantive information to add.

Again, thanks for the info today. I was anxious to hear.

Jeff

Jeffden said,I am a Jeffco resident, but would like to know if KRMA would be willing to coach any of us or provide some guidance as to what might help them the most ( in their eyes ). Yes they can help you with talking points and what-not. They will help get you signed up to testify and let you know when to be there. Contact Tiffany - this is just the absolutely critical kind of support they're looking for.

Originally posted by mknoebel
jm,

Please check you PM about tonight.

Thanks,

-Mike

Mike
Got your pm and sent a reply.


jeffden
Absolutely contact Tiffany ASAP. She will send you a packet and will be glad to help you make a quick pitch at the Jeffco hearings. Despite the great attendance last night, there were only a few Jeffco residents, and they are needed the most to help out.

Geof
Thanks for the summary of the meeting. I was in a long meeting at work this morning and did not have time to post.

If I might add a few things to Geof's recap...

James Morgese spoke to the fact that KRMA takes their May 2003 deadline for full power seriously and so is still included in the LCG application as well as their Mt. Morrison application.

Tiffany stressed the importance of JeffCo residents (past or present) being vocal. The two most important and effective means is by:
Writing your own letter to the Planning Commission (before Mar 13) or to the Board of County Commissioners (after Mar 13) {addresses below}. Non-JeffCo residents should do this also.
Testify at the Mt Morrison public hearing on Mar 15th 6PM (maybe continued on Mar 27th 1:30PM). Contact Ken Smith {info below} to get scheduled. Non-JeffCo residents can't testify and Tiffany considered it of no value to show (unless you like to watch!)

There were 19 or 20 of us that showed up. KRMA had snacks and refreshments and a map to push-pin our locations (blue = do rcv, red = don't rcv). Fun to see how diverse we are. I was really struck by how accommodating the staff at KRMA was! I can't thank them enough for the opportunity. Tom showed us anything we wanted to see and stayed with us until about 9:30PM. We even got to see a couple producers doing HD color correcting in their HDTV lab (sorry, I don't remember their names). I'd love to do that again sometime; maybe to celebrate the acceptance of both applications!

OK -- Should we try to set up a visit with KMGH in April?


Jefferson County Planning Commission
Attn: Paul Rosasco, Chairman
c/o Heather Gutherless, Jefferson County Planner
100 Jefferson County Parkway, Suite 3550
Golden, CO 80419

Board of County Commissioners
Attn: Michelle Lawrence, Chair
100 Jefferson County Parkway, Suite 5550
Golden, CO 80419
Email: commish@co.jefferson.co.us

Ken Smith
1625 Broadway, Suite 700
Denver, CO 80202
Email: ksmith@crlassociates.com
Phone: 303-592-5461:)

I will handcraft a letter this afternoon to send out to Chairman Rosasco. I will also contact Ken Smith about possibly testifying at the 2nd meeting as I will be gone for the first one in March.

I have already emailed Tiffany this morning to get the "packet" from her. Look forward to receiving that shortly. Maybe we can get Santellavision and wabisabi to also get on the docket for one of the meetings. And, of course, anyone else living in JeffNO, oh sorry, Jeffco!

Jeff

Originally posted by RonAuger

OK -- Should we try to set up a visit with KMGH in April?

:)

Ron
I will see what I can do to set up something with several of the LCG networks (hopefully at the same time) later on. I do not think it is wise to do that until their application is submitted and they have something to show us. I have made some initial contacts with some folks about such a meeting, but I do not want to dilute the effort for the KRMA hearing by chasing another meeting just yet. I think the turnout and interest last night will make it easier to convince the other LCG networks that it would be a good idea to participate. I also think a good show of support for KRMA with letters and testimony at the hearings will also get the attention of the LCG. They will need the same help for their own applications. Let's tackle that task first, and then move on to the LCG networks.

Thanks to all for the turnout last night. I am sure KRMA appreciates the help. They have done a lot for us the past few years, so it is nice to repay them a bit. I know it is a pain that we have to go to these efforts just to get HD when other major cities are on the air, but as long as the (S)CARE folks are active, we will have to counter their actions with our own.

I was just reading the older Denver Tower threads when I ran across this reply from Richard Adams. Who would have thought back in August of 2000 that this is exactly what is before the Jeffco Commisioners now.

No need to make the problem any worse than it now is. We are talking about a single shared DTV tower for a significant number of the potential DTV broadcasters and their backups, all colocated. No need to move all the towers, just give DTV a home. Let Jefco take the initiative to battle the existing towers, it's their problem. I.e. leave them where they are. The problem right now is DTV.

Provided there was no local discourse at its new location, the FCC could cut red tape rather than make this a long legal battle that could have very undesirable effects for the whole industry.

[clip]

...Again I ask, are we at 85% without Denver? Is this a serious matter for those outside that area too?

"With Liberty, HDTV and Justice for all."
Richard Adams

Originally posted by jeffden
From attending past meetings, the public commentary is better organized and presented by most of CARE and "our side" comes off as unprepared and basically in the category of "WE WANT OUR HDTV" with little substantive information to add.

Jeff

Well realistically, I'm afraid, thats how it's going to come across regardless. It probably would even if the proposal was out in the middle of nowhere but there was an "upsetting of the Antelope grazing patterns" "issue".

Here it's even harder to overcome because via brainwashing or otherwise you have the humanly, uh, "concerns".

Well realistically, I'm afraid, thats how it's going to come across regardless.

Perhaps, but there is one indisputable fact: The Government has mandated this change - that fact cannot be ignored. At some point JeffCo will have to accept this.

Well maybe a "Dozen Denverite Dance" in Washington on the steps of Congress and the FCC offices would work better then. ;)

Dan (who wonders if he should play Devils Advocate to help the troops hone in on their points and arouse passion...or should rather just keep his mouth shut. Guessing it's the latter.)

Although I had a great time and was appreciative of laughter at my off the cuff jokes, I think we need to power forward.

KRMA is the strongest station in this city. There are however problems with the others.

I asked repeatedly who to focus on: Fed vs. local.

I guess the answer is local.

The quote I wrote down is "What will determine the county's vision"

If the county is the focal point, then we should focus in that direction. Although I appreciate KMRA's assistance (check previous posts), I think we should think bigger. I also think that retailers here in town have a greater opportunity than others to facilitate a "letter" drive, whether to mandate a Mt. Morrison alternative, or to alter the final resolution of the LCG/Lookout MTn Group.

I want an action plan that includes all stations, in any locations. What can I do to help??

(Don't ask me, Ill take up too much bandwidth).

Jeff

Dan (who wonders if he should play Devils Advocate to help the troops hone in on their points and arouse passion...or should rather just keep his mouth shut. Guessing it's the latter.)


Well you're welcome to speak your mind.

Personally, I'm hoping we see a Dan that picks up paper and quill and speaks his mind to his County Commissioners. As a JeffCo resident your voice would be particularily relevant......

I also think that retailers here in town have a greater opportunity than others to facilitate a "letter" drive

It would seem so. Unfortunately you were the only retailer that was interested enough to show up.

I am about ready to distribute the petition. Who's the keeper of the email list - deepcscuba (?)- would you send me an email or PM and let me know your email address. I'd like you to distribute the petition document. I think the email distribution list is 100+ folks - If everyone gets just 10 measly signatures that will add up to over a thousand. We need to get the petitions into the stores and ask store managers if they will support getting signatures. With a little effort we should be able to approach a very respectable number of signatures.


Meanwhile I'm sitting here in the dark with the room lit only by the light of my trusty Mac Powerbook LCD. I hope IREA gets the juice flowing soon - I want my HDTV....(but it's not looking good at all with 5 or 6 very short aborted attempts).

Well whatever you do Geof, dont disconnect the satellite input on your receiver (not that you'd have any cause to). To hear tell, thats what crashes the Hughes units. Plugging them in when theres no satellite connection.

Thanks to all who showed up at KRMA on Wednesday. It was nice to meet you all and I hope everyone enjoyed themselves.

I have asked Tom Schomburg to prepare a clip of color bars that can be played on KRMA-DT to help you folks set up your monitors.

I need to know the best time to put the bars on air. Please get back to me at my station email address (bud_rath@krma.pbs.org). I will pick the time based on the majority of the answers ie: "7pm on a given day".

Tom has agreed to come in after business hours to run the clip if necessary.

Monday is a holiday at the station so you won't hear from me until Tuesday at the earliest.

Thanks again for your support and kind words about what we are doing!

Bud

Bud
Thanks for the offer to show the color bars for folks to calibrate their sets. I hope people here will take the time to reply. This is a very generous offer for those of you who can't afford to ISF your set each month or buy your own test equipment. Be sure to give him some feedback.

******

I just thought I would post this article from this mornings Daily Camera. It is about HDTV in general, and is taken from a national service with a couple of local comments added in.

http://www.thedailycamera.com/entertainment/television/a306227a.html

The Camera had a major article on the Eldorado Tower hearing yesterday, but for some reason it did not make the web site, so I can't link it here.

Here is a brief, but interesting article from the DTV news of the day on KCNC's HD set up.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=40

Yeah that is interesting how they do that. But I dont know that HD tape delay in and of itself is so unique. KMGH 17 has been doing it all along..including inserting local ads. Albeit without the 5.1 sound on the shows that offer it.

Bud,

Thanks for such a quick reply and action with the color bars! I know that I had a great time on Wednesday meeting you and seeing the operation first hand.

I hope that everyone here gets back to Bud about this. I didn't dream that KRMA would follow through with this so quickly when I asked Tom if this was possible on Wednesday night. As for times, I would prefer sometime during a weekend, and will indicate such myself to Bud.

Thanks Bud for the offer to broadcast color bars on your HD channel! To be of benefit, as was mentioned the other night it would be great if they would last at least several minutes... maybe as long as 5 minutes or so would be the best we could ask for.

I think broadcasting "bars & tone" would be a great addition to every channel and wish they would all consider it...

My preference for the broadcast would be a fixed time, repeating say once per week, in the evening. (/me hopes that this will fit on your server and can be automated).

-John

PS... I guess ^^^ is my email to Bud <grin>

PPS. Someone asked about the pluge pattern being part of the broadcast (super-black?) Can this even be broadcast, or by definition will it be "illegal?"

Thanks Bud. That's terrific. I'll get an email out in the next day or so.

All,
The petition is ready to go. It is the best I can make it at this time. I am hoping Jay will log in and see a PM that I sent asking him to distribute the petition to the group. Until then I have no way to efficiently distribute the petition. If anyone wants this right away send me an email or PM or let me know if you have space to host it so folks can download it.

It would be nice if everyone could get the petition and get a few signatures...

I will email Tiffany on Monday and ask when we should have these turned in.

FYI:
I had my set ISF'd today by Mark at Cinema Setup. He was thorough and did an excellent job getting my greyscale properly calibrated. For those who do not know, without proper greyscale it is impossible to get correct color, and it's impossible to get correct greyscale without the right equipment (Avia or Video Essentials will not get you there). My set was definitely greenish and it's now tracking very nicely from about 20 IRE all the way up to 100 IRE. He also setup the color and tint and the picture is looking fine. I may tweak it here and there after the sun sets (unfortunately I cannot get my room real dark) but all in all I am quite happy with Marks efforts. He clearly wants to get it right and that's all I could ask for. He doesn't have the experience of a Michael TLV or a Louis Carliner, etc, but aside from a couple of questions on getting the TV in the right mode this was not an issue. I think his greyscale cal may be better than what Louis achieved but there are different boards in the set so it's probably not wise to speculate too much on this. If you're interested, his correct email is: mark@cinemasetup.com - Phone 303-717-3113 (note his web site is out of date).

The HDTV Petition has been sent out via email to the Denver-DTV mailing list. If you did not get it, it means you are either not on the list, or your mail server kicked it back for some reason. If you think you should have received it but did not, please send me an email.

Jay

I got 27 letters "personally" addressed and signed (customers filled in the Dear Sir part so it doesn't look so form-letterish) this weekend. 9 are Jeffco residents.

Didn't sell any TV's tho :(

I used the form letter we got from KRMA.

I will send them to Jeffco, KUSA, KMGH.

If anyone has any ideas on how to get KMGH 7 out here at County Line and Quebec (literally), let me know.

Thanx
Jeff

That's great Jeff (the letters, not the lack of sales of tvs)! I'm taking the petition and the letter with me to work tomorrow - there are several people there that are very interested in HDTV, plus I'm sure I can at least get signatures from just about everyone that I hit up. I'm shooting for 50 by the end of the week. I'm going to try to get the Jeffco people that I work with to send the letters as well.

As for getting KMGH at County Line and Quebec, whew...that's a tough one. You're towards the bottom of a hill there, right? You might try the big 8 bow-tie channel master antenna with a preamp on a really tall mast. Durn hills that we live in around here...

jeffwalter. Member sjcardona live just off of Quebec a little south of C-470. He has a small UHF antenna he purchased from Radio Shack in his basement. It's not mounted but sits on the floor pointed towards downtown. I think he might have a line of site to downtown and I believe he gets around 75% of ABC. Hopefully he can elaborate on which antenna he has. Good Luck, the Indiana Jones transfer is good.

I am in Lone Tree (Lincoln and Yosemite) and am currently using the channel master 4 bay bow with 7775 preamp. Antenna is mounted in the attic. I am unable to lock on the KMGH-DT signal though. I pull in every other station fine. I can see the top of Qwest building and Republic Plaza, but the KMGH building is just too short and the power is too weak.

I would think someone that is further west such as University or so might have better luck because there is a better line of sight to downtown.

I might have a better shot if the antenna was mounted outside on like a 15 ft. mast or something but its just too much trouble and I'm sure the neighbors would not appreciate it.

Would be nice if KMGH would move their low power transmitter to republic with a higher power or even better have LCG resolve the tower problem!

- Dustin

A couple of thoughts...

We've never discussed who should and shouldn't sign the petition. I think the answer is everyone who watches Denver stations could sign it - regardless of whether or not you are also going to submit a personal letter. I do not think it is appropriate to have folks outside of the Denver station area sign the petition however....

KRMA has updated their Mt Morrison web site (http://www.mtmorrisontower.org/). It has a lot of good info along with sketches of both tower proposals. It's worth visiting this site, especially for those who missed the KRMA meeting last week.

Geof
Thanks for the tip on the KRMA Mt. Morrison application web site. I checked it last week after the meeting and it was 'under construction'. They did a real nice job on that. I am glad to see at least ONE of the LCG group seems to be concerned about public relations with the tower applications. I suppose that is partly because KRMA depends upon donations from the public to stay on the air, while the commercial networks think they don't need the public, they just need the sponsors. It is obviously a whole different attitude on the way they each deal with the public.

Just Bumping


Got 5 more letters signed today. That makes 42.


Winner buys the beers this weekend. (I only drink the good stuff)

Jeff

I just sent a letter to KMGH thanking them for an outstanding couple of days of HD movies. The PQ of Raiders of The Lost Ark and the Temple of Doom the last two nights was fabulous. While I do wish for the 5.1 sound, this is the best I have seen these movies look since opening night for Raiders at the old Century 21 theater on Colo Blvd. Too bad it's a Soundtrack store now :) though.

I used this as an opportunity to thank them and ask for more of everything: content, better sound, higher power and the possible relocation of their "tower" transmitter to at least Republic. I hope that anyone else who can receive and watched can do the same. A little positive encouragement can probably do us all some good.

Jeff

Geof,
Regarding the petition that was distributed, I am assuming we want only physical signatures on printed paper; as opposed to emailing the petition around and getting e-signatures.

Ron,
That is what I understand. When I discussed this with KRMA they thought real signatures were best and suggested we avoid any electronic signatures or online petitioning.

Check out today's RMN. There's our letter.

Good job Scott Hutchinds from Golden!!

Jeff

Very nice job Scott!


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion/article/0,1299,DRMN_38_992317,00.html

Scroll down.

Just bumping.

If anyone wants the petition form please send me a Private Message with your email address and I'll get it right out. So far (for me at least) getting signatures has been painless. No one has refused me and indeed there is sympathy out there.

Also, if you're not on the group email list I encourage you to sign up. We don't send a lot of email so your email won't be overflowing with HDTV "spam". None the less the email list is an expedient way to contact all interested folks. If you want to get on the email distribution list send an email with 'Subscribe' in the subject line to:
denver-dtv@attbi.com

Is anyone get OTA reception in Longmont?

Which channels?

Thanks,

Wavy

For Longmont, I live in the northeast corner . The antenna here is an outdoor omni (RS) on a 12' pole next to the house. By placing it in a certain location and rotating it to optimize the reception, I receive 18 around 50% most evenings, dipping down to the 30s in daytime. Local air traffic (small planes) are a pain. I can visually see the horizon from the location of the antenna. Nothing on 35 from any location/rotation. 32 can also be received if I change the rotation, but with the lip sync and strobe-effect problems, I can't stand it (wish they'd fix the problem, but I am becoming convinced that their 480p equipment just isn't capable (sound is less complex to process than video - hence the sound comes first - very wierd - in nature sound always comes second (as in thunder)). So their processing of sound and video are likely to be independent pieces of equipment without any integrated means of re-syncing after processing. Hoping to get the yagi up on the rooftop soon in an attempt at 35. I also saw here that channel 2's soon to be on 34? which may eliminate 35's chance here since 35 is low power- so I'll wait to see what happens with that. I saw a poster here reporting good signal on 18, 32, and 35 at his high-elevation location in Loveland, so I suspect with enough antenna height, 35 is currently possible here.

A couple of updates. I received a message from KMGH yesterday saying that they have put together the equipment list necessary to pass DD 5.1 sound - comes to about $20,000. They are seeing about working it into the budget. I'll pass along more info on that as I get it.

Also got a message this morning from Tom Schomburg at KRMA. He has the color bars recorded on one of the video servers ready to go. Just waiting on scheduling from Bud. Has everyone sent email to Bud with your preferred time to view the test patterns on KRMA?

I'd rather have KMGH spend their money on moving their HD antenna up off the ground (so to speak) and onto Republic Plaza. I guess they can spend their 20K now to satisfy the "lucky 7" and have it in place when they get their full power stuff on line in several years, but they'd have a whole lot more audience if they used the money to move their low power setup....

I suspect that KMGH is banking on the second round of the LCG application going through, and if it doesn't, then they'll look seriously at moving their antenna to the top of Republic or other tall building. They had said that they were looking at the option of doing just that back in December, but there's been no word on that since.

That's probably right Mark. Unfortunately that will leave many of us in the dark until the high power solution gets approved and built. I understand why they'd want to improve their capabilities but on the other hand what's the point if there are only "7" folks watching...Realistically speaking the new tower app won't be approved until this fall (if it is approved) and there will likely be a lawsuit after that making it late '03 or sometime in '04 before we see any LCG digitals being broadcast off of Lookout.

KMGH? KMGH is on the air digitally? I had no idea, where do I look?

:D :mad: :D :mad: :D :mad:

I also agree that I'd like to see KMGH spend the cash in moving their transmitter to atop Republic Plaza and upping the power.

I mean its great that they are going to provide DD 5.1, but what good is it if hardly anyone can receive their feeble signal in the first place?

Its fine if they want to await the LCG application, but any kind of real movement on the app is realistically still years away. Why not get a decent stop gap solution in for now where at least a greater number of people could benefit?

- Dustin

After experiencing several years of budget go rounds with accountants and the like, it makes some sense for KMGH to look into getting the sound equipment upgraded now as opposed to a secondary temporary transmitting antenna.

I would doubt that they are seriously considering spending the money to put up a second low power site. If they believe that the second round of LCG applications goes better than the first, then they already know or assume the timeline that Geof proposed ( 2003 / 2004 ish ). It is much easier to spread out the outlays on equipment that will be utilized for the long term full power solution ( like the sound upgrade to provide what ABC already sends them ) than to throw more money at another low power solution. I can't imagine they could justify that to bean counters, reluctant station managers or to stockholders.

But, that said, I hope they do relocate to Republic, even if it is short term, so that more area viewers can receive more HD and those folks can join in the fight with SCARE and we can get everything finally resolved.

Jeff

I don't argue with your logic Jeff.....I'd probably make the same decision as KMGH if I were in their shoes...but it does sort of rub salt in the wounds for those of us who can't get their signal...(Oh Boy, now I can't get their HD/DD5.1 signal)

Yeah I'm afraid I dont see much hope in getting them to move to Republic although it certainly cant hurt to voice our desire that they do. The total number of viewers at this point either way probably isnt a big concern of theirs. Besides, the current number must be at least 3 or 4 times what we think it is. There must be at least 30! Unless the 30 different souls that have ever spoken about anything in this thread truly represent the total number of digital viewers currently in the region ;)

Seriously though I do wonder just how many HD STB's are being used in the region right now. I dont suppose anyone at KRMA hazarded (is that a word) a guess by chance in the meeting did they? I dont know that the national average of percent of homes equiped would be overly accurate. That number is what, about 3-4 households out of a 1000 at this point, I believe.

You know Dan, I asked KRMA that very question at the meeting. How many folks in Denver have STBs? How big is the actual HD market? I am pretty sure they have some idea. However, I was told they aren't really sure and it probably just limited "to those of us here tonight". So who really knows.

A few weeks ago when I was talking to Don Rooney, the director of engineering at KWGN, he asked me if I had an STB, and seemed surprised when I said that I did. I wonder how anyone at the stations can know if there's anyone watching, other than from forums like this.

Damn Mark, who needs a sat receiver with a phone line umbilical cord to notify the networks what our viewing habits are? We've got antennas. They're two-way, right....
:D

Just in case you missed this from the other threads, it looks like those of us able to get KCNC may be in for a March madness treat.

Originally posted by BobRoss
Hi All,

FYI

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

February 22, 2002

SEARS AND CBS TEAM UP TO BROADCAST NCAA MENÕS BASKETBALL
FINAL FOUR AND CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES IN HDTV

HDTV Coverage Expanded To Include First Round Action in Washington, D.C.,
And Kentucky Regional Site for Second Round


NEW YORK, Feb. 22 -- Sears, Roebuck and Co. (NYSE: S) and CBS Television announced today an agreement in which Sears will sponsor High Definition Television coverage of the 2002 NCAA MenÕs Basketball Championship. This marks the third consecutive year that CBS has broadcast the Final Four in HDTV.

In addition to the Final Four Championship game, coverage will be expanded to include first round games at MCI Center in Washington, D.C., on Friday, March 15 (four games) and Sunday, March 17 (two games) and regional action in Lexington, Ky., on Thursday, March 21 (two games) and Saturday, March 23 (one game). The first eight games will be regionalized broadcasts, while the Regional final, National Semi-final games and National Championship will be national games.

The broadcasts, which will be presented live by CBS Sports, will be ÒunifiedÓ productions -- produced in HDTVÕs highest definition format, 1080i, and converted for the CBS Television NetworkÕs analog broadcast coverage. This production technique also produces a better quality analog picture. Whether watching in wide screen HD or traditional 4x3 analog, viewers will see the same camera angles, replays and graphics and will hear the same play-by- play.

"CBS Sports is pleased to team with Sears to expand our HDTV broadcasts of this year's NCAA Tournament," said Sean McManus, President, CBS Sports. "By expanding our coverage for this, our third consecutive HDTV Final Four, CBS SportsÕ leadership in presenting our marquee events in High Definition continues to grow.Ó

"While Sears is a leading retailer in the sales of HDTV, we are aware there is a good deal of confusion among consumers about HDTV, which ultimately turns to excitement once the consumer experiences HDTV and learns more about it at Sears," said Ray Brown, Vice President/General Merchandise Manager, Electronics for Sears. "With this partnership with CBS, Sears is taking a leadership role to help educate millions of consumers about the benefits HDTV offers."

CBS SportsÕ coverage of the 2002 NCAA MenÕs Basketball Final Four and Championship games will be broadcast live Saturday, March 30 (6:00-11:00 PM, ET) and Monday, April 1 (9:00-11:30 PM, ET) from the Georgia Dome in Atlanta.

(More)

CBS-SearsÉ2

Forty-six of CBSÕs owned and affiliated stations are currently broadcasting in digital, covering approximately 60% of the nation. By May 1, 2002, CBS expects to be transmitting digital programming across more than 75 owned and affiliated stations, reaching well over 68% of the country.


* * *

Contacts: Dana McClintock CBS Television 212-975-1077 dlmcclintock@cbs.com
Jerry Caracciolli CBS Sports 212-975-7466 gwcaracciolli@cbs.com


About CBS

CBS Television is comprised of the CBS Television Network -- with more than 200 owned and affiliated stations reaching virtually every television home in the United States; the Network's programming arms CBS Entertainment, CBS News and CBS Sports; and CBS Enterprises, a global leader in distribution.

For the last three years, CBS has been broadcasting the majority of its prime time programming in HDTV. Currently, CBS is broadcasting all of its primetime dramas and comedies in HDTV. CBS also broadcasts the leading daytime drama, THE YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS, five days a week in HD.

CBS's commitment to High Definition extends beyond prime time and entertainment programming to many major sporting events. At the beginning of the 2001/2002 season, CBS served up three days of U.S. Open Tennis coverage in HD, and this fall, CBS presented 13 consecutive weeks of selected college football games in HD culminating in the Army/Navy and SEC Championship games. In previous years, CBS has broadcast the AFC playoffs and Super Bowl in HD, and both the 2000 and 2001 Masters¨ were presented in HD.

About Sears, Roebuck and Co.

Sears, Roebuck and Co. is a leading U.S. retailer of apparel, home and automotive products and services, with annual revenue of more than $40 billion. The company serves families in the U.S. through Sears stores nationwide, including approximately 870 full-line stores. Sears also offers a wide variety of merchandise and services through its Web site, http://www.sears.com.

Good News!!!

I can start planning my final 4 party now. I wanted to have one for the Super Bowl but didn't figure that would be anything to show off. I was right.

Later
Joe

Hi guys... on tonight! (locally produced)

The program Spirit of Colorado #605 "Extra Credit"
will be shown in HD on Saturday, 2/23 at 19:30 (MT) on KRMA DT-18.

This will be coming from tape LOR-605.

The program NOVA "Life's Greatest Miracle" will be shown in HD on Tuesday, 2/26 at 20:00 & 23:00(MT) on KRMA DT-18.

-John

PS. If any of ya'll have the Radio Shack Pyramid IR Repeaters could you please read my thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120175). Thanks!

Isn't that the Spirit of Colorado episode we saw them working on on KRMA?

sigh -- I'll TiVo it in standard def :(

Any chance "Spirit" is being repeated later at night, I wasn't planning on being home but would like to see the show?

Purchased the HDS20 and hooked it up to my Sony VPL10T front projector. By chance, I happened upon a KRMA HD program (something to do with flowers) and the picture was AWESOME! Far better clarity and depth then I have seen from any DVD with my system.

Question for the "lucky 7". If you don't mind, would you post the general area you live in? I live in Lowry (Alameda & Colorado) and really want to change the number to "lucky 8". I purchased one of the larger Radio Shack antennas (forgot model), placed it in my attic, and pointed it in the general direction of downtown. Went downstairs to my home theater, and PBS, FOX, and CBS tune in without adjustment.

Question for any with the HDS20...how have you fine tuned your signal? My "set by guesswork" method I mentioned above worked for the first stations (and all analog ones), but am curious since the HDS doesn't have a signal meter how you fine tuned stations which were troublesome for you.

Finally, TitanTV.com seems to do a great job of listing all types of station info (digital, cable, analog, satellite, etc.) but it seems that Digital KRMA doesn't match up with other information. (ie. JohnJr post of the NOVA program "lifes greatest miracle" 2/26 at 20:00). Is TitanTV the best source to use or is there another?

THANKS FOR THE HELP IN ADVANCE!

Just a note for all those still struggling to pick up our local low power stations - take antenna in hand and try various locations to see if one is better than another. For example, I've been consistently picking up KRMA DT-18 with mid a 80's signal level but it was hit and miss on KCNC DT-35. Some evenings the signal strength was ok and others it was not. The signal varied from low-mid 50's to low 20's. More often than not KCNC was not receivable in the evenings (my Mit's HD STB needs about 30+ to reliably make a picture). Yesterday afternoon I was receiving DT-35 with a mid-20's signal level and DT-18 in the usual 80's so I decided to get up in the attic and play in the insulation (not really "playing"). I ended up moving the antenna 2 feet West and rotating it so it pointed more towards the East and I'm now getting both DT-18 and DT-35 in the mid 50's. It's too early to tell if they'll stay in the 50's or if they both nosedive to the low 20's but my point is that it just takes patience (and perhaps a lot of swearing) to get an antenna setup that will work for more than one station. This is not a user friendly process...

weisco,
If you have any buildings blocking your line of sight to the KMGH studio you may be out of luck. Their antenna is very low in elevation compared to the KRMA and KCNC antennas and I believe they're transmitting lower power as well. The situation is really hit and miss - your neighbors may be able to see their signal just fine while you may not (or vice-versa). Good luck though. I hope you make it.

Yeah thats for sure. Alot of variables. Which antenna, antenna positioning, weather, line of sight. I can get 18 in the 50's with the cheapest little UHF $3 antenna that Radio Shack sells. Yet for 17 even a giant yagi doesnt guarantee that I'll always get a usuable signal. Sad we should even have these issues living in the same town we wish to receive the signals from. It's one thing when guys on the east coast are having issues trying to pull in digital channels from say Baltimore even though they live in D.C. etc. In those cases it's just gravy. Here we have no choice.

As far as using the Panny though, it still blows my mind that it doesnt have a strength meter on OTA channels. Talk about making tweaking difficult. I thought it was bad enough that my Dish 6000's meter was visual only..no audible tones. Lotta good that does ya when ya cant see a screen. But at least it's better than no meter at all!

As a lot of us stated earlier in the thread, if you really want to see Alias and some of the ABC movies, try an outside antenna position if at all possible. I know that with this morning's snow, it will be unlikely that you can try an outside location, but it may be your only shot at pulling in KMGH. It is definitely a toughie.

On other points, KMGH has been coming in very consistently and without lip sync issues for several weeks now. But, KCNC last night had a definite buzzing coming out of the center speker for part of their movie last night. I had switched over during Alias to check them out and noticed it. When I checked back, it had been fixed. Kudos to our various station engineers for their learning on the fly and their attention to details now that there is more HD programming weekly.

Jeff