Denver, CO - OTA [Text View] - Page 52

gakon

11-01-05, 01:11 PM

How do you figure this is "heavy handed"?The quote you referenced was not. But statements like Since you are visually impaired Since ppl in this forum seem incapable of distinguishing SD from HD I want FOX to at the very least explain why this happens. Predictably, their attitude is that it is easier to ignore the screw up than to fix it. come across as heavy handed to me. I don't think I'm in the minority.
Since I'm on a roll, yesterday, in response to my statement "But I have never paid close enough attention to try to discern a pattern" you replied "That's because there is no pattern, it is random." There may not be a pattern, but that's not the reason that I haven't paid close attention to the switch. And there may still be a pattern, based on time or something else that hasn't been determined yet. Just because it's not tied to camera switching doesn't mean there is absolutely no pattern.
Finally, I'm going to agree with AkaStp about your statement The result of my efforts was that KCNC finally admitted that they were putting out a defective signal, and they fixed the problem. Had I not gone to the trouble, KCNC would still be broadcasting those hideous lines.There were a few of us who contacted KCNC on your behalf, despite the fact that we couldn't see these lines and despite the tone you used when making your "request". I don't recall that KCNC ever admitted anything about a defective signal, just that they put a primary server back on line after it had returned from repairs. And the backup server had been in place for months before you started seeing the lines. Statements like "admitted that they were putting out a defective signal" imply that they were doing it on purpose, and I don't think that's true.
I hope my comments don't take this thread too far OT.

TotallyPreWired

11-01-05, 02:31 PM

Don't get stuck paying for digital TV switch
If you don’t own a digital TV set, you may get stuck paying $60 or more for a converter box when the government switches to all-digital TV signals. A Senate bill uses money raised by the sale of airwaves to cover most of your cost for a box, but a House committee bill sticks consumers with most of the tab. Let Congress know (http://cu.convio.net/site/R?i=K3KJibT_ajFT8GTymi882Q..) consumers shouldn’t foot the bill for the government-mandated digital TV transition.
Looks people are getting all fired up about all the wrong things!

On another note, last Friday the FCC was supposed to have a hearing that in part dealt with Significantly Viewed(SV) stations. The Friday meeting was postponed until Monday(yesterday). Then yesterday, they modified the agenda, and dropped the SV discussion. Our government at work. The lack of a decision on any remaining issues concerning SV stations, could delay D*'s rollout of SV stations. And, the rollout was tentatively scheduled for 11/09.
....jc

squidboy

11-01-05, 03:00 PM

Looks people are getting all fired up about all the wrong things!

On another note, last Friday the FCC was supposed to have a hearing that in part dealt with Significantly Viewed(SV) stations. The Friday meeting was postponed until Monday(yesterday). Then yesterday, they modified the agenda, and dropped the SV discussion. Our government at work. The lack of a decision on any remaining issues concerning SV stations, could delay D*'s rollout of SV stations. And, the rollout was tentatively scheduled for 11/09.
....jc

Is that Nov. 9, 2005 or Nov. 2009?

squidboy

11-01-05, 03:03 PM

I'm on the other side of Brighton, but I'd suspect you could get the same channels as me - that is, everything but KMGH.

Thanks. Suspected as much, since that is what I get at my current house in NE Aurora.

TotallyPreWired

11-01-05, 03:11 PM

Is that Nov. 9, 2005 or Nov. 2009?
This year, 8 days! And they have indeed been working on them. If you go here. (http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/see/SvChannels.jsp) You'll find a page that they've had setup for them. For instance, use the Zip Code option and enter my zip code of 80863. You'll notice that it then asks you for the county. This is fairly new. I expect this page to return valid results when they rollout SV stations.
....jc

JackinThornton

11-01-05, 03:55 PM

The quote you referenced was not. But statements like come across as heavy handed to me. I don't think I'm in the minority.
Since I'm on a roll, yesterday, in response to my statement "But I have never paid close enough attention to try to discern a pattern" you replied "That's because there is no pattern, it is random." There may not be a pattern, but that's not the reason that I haven't paid close attention to the switch. And there may still be a pattern, based on time or something else that hasn't been determined yet. Just because it's not tied to camera switching doesn't mean there is absolutely no pattern.
Finally, I'm going to agree with AkaStp about your statement There were a few of us who contacted KCNC on your behalf, despite the fact that we couldn't see these lines and despite the tone you used when making your "request". I don't recall that KCNC ever admitted anything about a defective signal, just that they put a primary server back on line after it had returned from repairs. And the backup server had been in place for months before you started seeing the lines. Statements like "admitted that they were putting out a defective signal" imply that they were doing it on purpose, and I don't think that's true.
I hope my comments don't take this thread too far OT.

AMEN BROTHER!

ROLLER11, dude, you ever hear of a Dale Carnegie book? Every single "regular" on this forum has been nothing but helpful and gracious to me, AND MANY OTHERS getting setup. I have tried to do the same. But your tone and attitude you have CONSISTENTLY used here, and your "QUESTIONABLE" issues are too much for me. Can you not accept the fact that our fair city is behind the rest of the country, and DEAL with it, rather than attack people that have nothing to do with the "QUESTIONABLE" issues? I happen to appreciate the fact that I am at least getting more HD, and better and reliable service than I was even 12 to 18 months ago.

dr_mal

11-01-05, 04:05 PM

Don't you guys have roller11 on "ignore" by now? :p

Here's an easy link: add roller11 to your ignore list (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=7422314)

gakon

11-01-05, 04:51 PM

Don't you guys have ...
Despite the tone, his issues are still valid. They may not be problems to some (most?) of us, but I'm still interested in trying to find solutions (even if I get my HD via Comcast). I can get past the attitude.

roller11

11-01-05, 05:40 PM

The quote you referenced was not (heavy handed).

Right, and that quote was the only thing that akastp was refering to,
the only quote that counts, so don't
make this into something it isn't.

But statements like "Since you are visually impaired"

fair enough, I take that one back.

"Since ppl in this forum seem incapable of distinguishing SD from HD"

Obviously, an accurate statement, heavy handed or not.

"I want FOX to at the very least explain why this happens. Predictably, their attitude is that it is easier to ignore the screw up than to fix it."

Another accurate statement. Rick Wheeler has notified FOX about this,
they have ignored him. I therefore stand by this comment.

Since I'm on a roll, yesterday, in response to my statement "But I have never paid close enough attention to try to discern a pattern" you replied "That's because there is no pattern, it is random." There may not be a pattern, but that's not the reason that I haven't paid close attention to the switch. And there may still be a pattern, based on time or something else that hasn't been determined yet. Just because it's not tied to camera switching doesn't mean there is absolutely no pattern.

There's not a pattern until there is a pattern. Since it appears to be random, I stand by my statement. If you prefer, I'll admend my statement
to "there's no discernable pattern". If I'm wrong, then identify the pattern to the forum.

There were a few of us who contacted KCNC on your behalf, when making your request.

Oh please, you contacted KCNC to report a bad signal because it's the right thing to do. you weren't doing me any favor.

I don't recall that KCNC ever admitted anything about a defective signal,

If you want to take the stand that Dave Layne refused to admit that KCNC was putting out a bad signal for two months, the entire time *knowing* their signal was bad, then I agree with you.

That said, Pat Brus, engineering manager at KCNC, did indeed admit they put
out a defective signal. I had a conversation with Pat on August
18,2005. I asked him if he figured out what went wrong with their signal. Since
they were busted, there was no point in continuing with the company line "our signal is perfect" and he was finally honest
with me. He said they scoped it out with a time domain analyzer, and found it to
be a defective CODEC in their back up server. So, he did indeed admit their signal was defective.

Statements like "admitted that they were putting out a defective signal" imply that they were doing it on purpose, and I don't think that's true..

Not admitting it does not imply doing it on purpose .
They were "doing it on purpose" because they had no choice, they had to put out a signal, defective or not. Their good server
was in the shop, so they had no way to correct the problem. So they were aware that their signal
was defective, but they publicly denied it knowing the prob would be fixed with the
repaired server.
Here's the whole story:
Around
Feb. 2005, they switched over to their backup server and sent their primary out for repairs. At 7:15PM on June 10, 2005, the CODEC failed causing a defective signal.
On June 13, I made the engineering staff aware of this problem. (Common sense
suggests they were already aware since they monitor their own signal, but I can't prove that.) When I informed Dave Layne about this, he stalled me by
claiming he had no knowledge of this defective signal. On August 4, 2005, they got their repaired primary server back and it was put into service. At that
instant, the problem was resolved.

Now, before you quibble about whether or not Dave Layne knew they had
a problem, consider this: if he really and truly didn't know about the defect until the server was replaced,
that makes him *grossly* incompetent. He was told the signal was defective
on June 13. What kind of engineer would ignore this kind of info for almost two
months, not even bothering to check it out for himself, to see if it was true?
No way Mr. Layne could be THAT incompetent, so I have to assume he was deceitful.
There is simply no way to justify putting out a defective signal for that long
unless you have no choice. So in my analysis, I'm bending over backwards
to give him the benefit of the doubt, and cast him in the best light possible.

In retrospect, given an understanding of what really happened,
I'm more sympathetic as to the tough spot they were in and can't necessarily blame them for the coverup.
However, that does not excuse Dave Layne for telling me to my face that
"I'm the only person in the universe who is seeing these lines" when
he was quite aware that the problem was real, and that others had reported the
defect. For that cowardice, I have utter comtempt for him.

Geof

11-01-05, 07:40 PM

Roller you reap what you sow. Since you have so much utter contempt for Mr Layne and feel he was deceitful to you I hope he, and his crew, never, ever, respond to any future inquiry or complaint. Sir, you are a conceited ass.

roller11

11-01-05, 09:41 PM

I was actually referring to the manner in which you've addressed people regarding the current problem and the red vertical lines problem of a few months ago. Maybe "heavy-handed" isn't the right word. How about "condescending" or "insulting" instead?

Ok, I admit I shouldn't have said ""Since you are visually impaired".
I did so only because the poster accused me of "seeing things". Somehow,
when others insult me first, and I retaliate, I'm the bad guy.

How is ranting and calling KCNC or Fox

I never ranted about FOX affiliate KDVR. I pointed out the *fact* that FOX corprate has ignored the problem. As to KCNC, I had every right to rant due to the way
Dave Layne jacked me around.

and its staff names and accusing people of cover-ups going to get the desired results?

As I recall, when I was talking to KCNC personel, nobody in this forum was present, so nobody can speak as to how I related to KCNC. In fact, I never said anything about a coverup, never ranted at all to anyone at KCNC or KDVR.
Even when Layne showed his true colors, I was still reserved.

I would suggest more of a softly-softly approach.

We are talking about precisely my statement "I would encourage others to contact rick Wheeler at KDVR about this problem." Nothing more, that was my only attempt at banding the forum to fix the FOX problem. If that is
"heavy handed" or "insulting", fine, then don't contact Rick Wheeler. I'm not ordering
anyone to do anything, I'm just saying that nothing will be done until
a second person complains.
The other things attributed to me were in no way intended to get results, they were accurate observations.

What gets lost in all these vicious, groundless peronal attacks is that
I was proven right and my detractors (Dr. Mal, etc.) were proven wrong
in the KCNC fiasco. Had I not taken the initiative, we'd still be looking at those
hideous vertical lines. I guess it's only natural that some people will be resentful
that I was right all along. I never said "I told you so" even though I well could have.

gakon

11-02-05, 01:11 AM

Would you mind running my new house in Brighton?I'm sure dr_mal is correct, but here they are. There is a hill that blocks your line of sight to RP, but you can probably get signal from around or over it.

roller11

11-02-05, 09:55 AM

Since you have so much utter contempt for Mr Layne and feel he was deceitful to

I don't FEEL he was deceitful, he *WAS* deceitful.

I hope he, and his crew, never, ever, respond to any future inquiry or complaint.

LOL!! They have never responded to my complaints, even when I caught
them redhanded, even after I sent them indisputable visual proof.
That's the whole point, dummy!

RonAuger

11-02-05, 10:41 AM

Don't you guys have roller11 on "ignore" by now? :p

Here's an easy link: add roller11 to your ignore list (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=7422314)David, Thanks for the link! That should cut down alot of the drivel and ranting I have to weed thru.

mknoebel

11-02-05, 10:58 AM

Don't you guys have roller11 on "ignore" by now? :p

Here's an easy link: add roller11 to your ignore list (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=7422314)

Done. Thanks.

That last one sealed the deal for me.

rblatchley

11-02-05, 11:32 AM

whtevr77

11-02-05, 11:38 AM

Does anyone here have dish network HD? If so, were you able to get the waiver to get CBS HD out of either NY or LA?

I'm thinking about dropping Comcast since they keep giving me the run around about HD service in Longmont. Dish Network seems like the way to go if I can get CBS HD. Thanks all.

I have HD through E* and was able to get the waiver from KGWN. That was a while back and I don't know if anything has changed. I get the LA CBS feed. It's off 148 where our expanded locals are. If you want NY it's at 61.5.

squidboy

11-02-05, 12:05 PM

I'm sure dr_mal is correct, but here they are. There is a hill that blocks your line of sight to RP, but you can probably get signal from around or over it.

Thanks. Just out of curiousity, is that topo to the base of RP or the top?

gakon

11-02-05, 12:12 PM

squidboy, the topo program doesn't have buildings, so it's to the base. RP is 717 feet tall, so the top is close to 5900'

TheBert

11-02-05, 12:19 PM

Does anyone here have dish network HD? If so, were you able to get the waiver to get CBS HD out of either NY or LA?

I'm thinking about dropping Comcast since they keep giving me the run around about HD service in Longmont. Dish Network seems like the way to go if I can get CBS HD. Thanks all.

I tried to get a waiver a few months ago and was not able to, It would have required a second dish and E* would not do it.

rblatchley

11-02-05, 01:25 PM

I have HD through E* and was able to get the waiver from KGWN. That was a while back and I don't know if anything has changed. I get the LA CBS feed. It's off 148 where our expanded locals are. If you want NY it's at 61.5.

Thanks whtevr and thebert..........are you guys happy with your dish network service and HD? Any advantages (besides HD) over Comcast?

Also, what is the process for applying for a waiver? Will Dish network do that for you?

(also, don't mean to be such a noob here, but I assume E* stands for dish network and echostar?)

Thanks!!

oxothuk

11-02-05, 02:31 PM

squidboy, the topo program doesn't have buildings, so it's to the base. RP is 717 feet tall, so the top is close to 5900'Does it make any adjustments for the curvature of the earth, or is it a 'flat earth' model.

whtevr77

11-02-05, 03:53 PM

Thanks whtevr and thebert..........are you guys happy with your dish network service and HD? Any advantages (besides HD) over Comcast?

Also, what is the process for applying for a waiver? Will Dish network do that for you?

(also, don't mean to be such a noob here, but I assume E* stands for dish network and echostar?)

Thanks!!

I contacted KGWN in Cheyenne by phone and they faxed the waiver to E* (echostar) and faxed a copy to me. That evening I had CBS HD. Like I said this was almost two years ago and the process may have changed. I already had the second dish pointed to 148 so that wasn't an issue for me.

As far as the service...yes I have been happy with what they offer IMO. Of course I wish they offered more HD but could anyone ever have enough HD? I can't compare to Comcast since I haven't used them in 5+years. I suggest you check out the Denver comcast HD thread as well as other members on this one.

gakon

11-02-05, 05:05 PM

Does it make any adjustments for the curvature of the earth, or is it a 'flat earth' model.I'm pretty sure it's 'flat earth'. It's a commonly available program geared more towards creating maps for hikers, so I doubt curvature has that much influence in those uses. I'm not sure it would have a big influence for most of the profiles I've created, either, except for totallyprewired. My geometry is really rusty, but I calculated that over 100 miles the effect is about 1665' (center higher than endpoints). I don't believe the effect is linear (i.e., for 20 miles, the effect is 66', not 333'). Feel free to check my work. Please.

JackinThornton

11-02-05, 06:09 PM

I tried to get a waiver a few months ago and was not able to, It would have required a second dish and E* would not do it.

Just call Dish (E*) again, and tell them you need the 2nd dish to get channels 12 and 20. They will install it on their dime. I just literally did that 2 months ago. If you try to go to channel 20, doesn't your receiver say on the screen that a 2nd dish is required, and will be installed to you at no extra cost? Mine used to.

**************
OFF TOPIC
**************
I was going to put ROLLER 11 on my ignore list, but now whenever I am having a bad day, I just read his posts, and thank God I am not him.

Hideous lines!!!! ha ha... Makes me chuckle every time I read it. As if a few lines was more of an issue than broadcasting all locals at 100 watts.

TotallyPreWired

11-02-05, 07:04 PM

I don't believe the effect is linear (i.e., for 20 miles, the effect is 66', not 333'). Feel free to check my work. Please.
Gakon strikes again! :p But, I think a little too aggressively! :eek:

Without using outrageous numbers, you are looking at about 8" per mile. This is starting at the surface of the earth and going a mile @ 90° to the center of the earth(plumb). So, for me at about 53 miles: 53 x 8" = 424" = 35' 4" So, if both locations are at the same elevation either the antenna or the transmitter would need to be about 36' higher for LOS.
....jc

Smuuth

11-02-05, 08:32 PM

Gakon strikes again! :p But, I think a little too aggressively! :eek:

Without using outrageous numbers, you are looking at about 8" per mile. This is starting at the surface of the earth and going a mile @ 90° to the center of the earth(plumb). So, for me at about 53 miles: 53 x 8" = 424" = 35' 4" So, if both locations are at the same elevation either the antenna or the transmitter would need to be about 36' higher for LOS.
....jcOf course, I'm sure you took into account that the effective earth radius for telecommunication is the radius of a hypothetical earth for which the distance to the radio horizon is the same as that for the actual earth with an assumed uniform vertical gradient of atmospheric refractive index.

Note: For the standard atmosphere, the effective earth radius is 4/3 that of the actual earth radius.
:D
(courtesy of wikipedia)

rblatchley

11-03-05, 10:32 AM

Lawood

11-03-05, 11:07 AM

So I decided to order Dish Network yesterday. They told me that I won't get all of my locals with one dish so they'll have to install 2 (A dish 500 and a smaller 18inch dish). They also said that if I wanted the VOOM channels, I'd have pay $100 for another dish. Does anyone know if the second dish they're installing for my locals points to the same satellite that sends the VOOM signal? Will I be able to get VOOM with the second dish? Thanks.
The locals right now are on the 148 degree satellte and VOOM is on the 61.5 degree satellite so the answer is NO. This will all be changing in the future. Mainly do the fact that Dish is required to provide all the locals on one dish which is the dish 1000.

whtevr77

11-03-05, 11:19 AM

Voom is also on 129. And it so happens that the extra locals are mirrored there too.

Check out www.dishchannelchart.com

roller11

11-03-05, 11:22 AM

Does anyone here have dish network HD? If so, were you able to get the waiver to get CBS HD out of either NY or LA?

I'm thinking about dropping Comcast since they keep giving me the run around about HD service in Longmont. Dish Network seems like the way to go if I can get CBS HD. Thanks all.

Some of us are getting CBS OTA in longmont. Where do you live exactly that you can't?

ptmccart

11-03-05, 11:30 AM

Voom is also on 129. And it so happens that the extra locals are mirrored there too.

Unfortunately at this moment, Dish is not providing the Dish1000 for Denver locals for free until next summer. If you want the Dish1000 you will have to pay $100. If you want to get the Denver locals without paying, Dish makes you get the second dish pointed at 148.

TheBert

11-03-05, 11:42 AM

[QUOTE=JackinThornton]Just call Dish (E*) again, and tell them you need the 2nd dish to get channels 12 and 20. They will install it on their dime. I just literally did that 2 months ago. If you try to go to channel 20, doesn't your receiver say on the screen that a 2nd dish is required, and will be installed to you at no extra cost? Mine used to.

JackinThornton, I believe channel 20 UPN is on the 110 sat like the rest of the locals in Den, Maybe I can try it with channel 12 though, Thanks for the info. Tim

Roller11, Have you had any sign of KMGH ever in Longmont?

roller11

11-03-05, 11:48 AM

TheBert

11-03-05, 11:51 AM

[QUOTE=rblatchley]Thanks whtevr and thebert..........are you guys happy with your dish network service and HD?

(also, don't mean to be such a noob here, but I assume E* stands for dish network and echostar?)

You are correct.

I have been happy for the most part, Discovery HD looks great. We watch OTA most of the time.

TheBert

11-03-05, 11:58 AM

[QUOTE=TheBert]

No trace of KMGH. I do get all the other stations.

Same here, Lets hope they move to RP soon,

Whtevr77 are you getting everything except KMGH as well?

whtevr77

11-03-05, 12:05 PM

[QUOTE=roller11]

Same here, Lets hope they move to RP soon,

Whtevr77 are you getting everything except KMGH as well?

Yep. My worst is KCNC but it does come in with a few breakups, especially during the day.

sunshinedawg

11-03-05, 04:47 PM

Have you had any sign of KMGH ever in Longmont?

I've never seen a blip in the 2.5 years I've been up here.

TotallyPreWired

11-03-05, 05:39 PM

Of course, I'm sure you took into account that the effective earth radius for telecommunication is the radius of a hypothetical earth for which the distance to the radio horizon is the same as that for the actual earth with an assumed uniform vertical gradient of atmospheric refractive index.

Note: For the standard atmosphere, the effective earth radius is 4/3 that of the actual earth radius.
:D
(courtesy of wikipedia)
Nope, just the Curvature of Earth from a geometric standpoint. :p And, of course, relating to LOS. Now, if you want to change the scope of discussions into things like Fresnel zones and phase cancelling, I'll go find a book! :)
....jc

oxothuk

11-03-05, 06:32 PM

I've never seen a blip in the 2.5 years I've been up here.
Nor have I, and I'm 10 miles closer.

Smuuth

11-04-05, 01:02 AM

Nope, just the Curvature of Earth from a geometric standpoint. :p And, of course, relating to LOS. Now, if you want to change the scope of discussions into things like Fresnel zones and phase cancelling, I'll go find a book! :)
....jcJust enjoying the discussion. It's nice to be in a forum with participants who know whereof they speak. :)

roller11

11-04-05, 11:42 AM

roller11,

What did Rick Wheeler tell you? Is he "working on it" or did he just blow you off?

He pretty much said that they just pass the signal on from wherever they get
it, so about all he can do is report the problem to FOX corporate. So far, FOX
has ignored his inquiry.
Earlier this week,
we had a 30 minute phone conversation about this and many other things,
namely the effect that bandwidth has on PQ, and why some primetime HD shows look so bad. Rick is a great resource, he did not
imply that I was "seeing things", or anything like that. He wasn't condescending,
and treated me with respect, unlike some other station personal in the Denver area.

This is a very different situation from the KCNC fiasco this summer. There, KCNC
had a hard failure of a piece of equipment, so I knew that eventually they would fix
it if people complained. KCNC did indeed fix it after my brother in law,
my next door neighbor, and myself all called in and talked to/left messages
with Dave Layne. KCNC replaced the bad server on Aug.4
With FOX, the prob appears to be at a national level, and not an equipment failure. Seems more like this problem is an unfortunate side effect
of something FOX is doing deliberately, my theory is that they are randomly restricting the bandwidth for reasons known only to FOX.
Still, FOX is advertizing HD on NFL games, so I want to know why that isn't exactly happening.
On the Colo Sprgs theard, people are also reporting random fluctuations in the DD5.1 audio, a symptom which is concurrent with the HD/SD vacillations.

TotallyPreWired

11-04-05, 04:30 PM

Yesterday, the FCC passed an order to allow the Significantly Viewed provisions of SHREVA. TaDa!

As soon as next week D* may start providing those analog signals. Unfortunately, the digital provisions of SHREVA are pretty meaningless until HD LIL is being broadcast. Even after that time, I don't see much of a benefit to most of us. :(

From what I read today(I could be wrong) but it doesn't look like a SV digital signal can be provided if the local affiliate isn't broadcasting a digital signal.

However, there still remains the digital signal testing option which takes effect on 04/30/06. They have also changed the way digital signal reception defined:

31. We amend Section 76.54, as proposed, to update the existing reference to “Grade B contour,” which applies to analog stations, to add “noise limited service contour,” the service contour relevant for a station’s digital signal.
....jc

colofan

11-04-05, 04:41 PM

So doe this mean that if D* still doesn't have Denver DMA up on HD LIL that I can then request a digital test here in loveland and get waivers for HD?

TotallyPreWired

11-04-05, 05:12 PM

So doe this mean that if D* still doesn't have Denver DMA up on HD LIL that I can then request a digital test here in loveland and get waivers for HD?
That's what I interpret it to mean. However, the order is so full of, hmmm, uh, lawyer speak, that maybe you should read it! However, I don't think todays order addresses 'Digital Testing'. That's in the original SHREVA document. Todays order is here. (http://www.fcc.gov) It's under the heading: FCC Takes Further Steps To Implement SHVERA.
....jc

roller11

11-04-05, 05:18 PM

I get the W. Coast feed of FOX from DirecTV for HD and was watching The O.C. and Reunion in HD tonight. The PQ was awful! Lots of noise and small blocking. It looked like a poor upconvert. Anyone else notice this? Its been OK on previous evenings. Anyone know if there's a problem? D* CBSW and other HD channels looked just fine, just FOXW that is the problem. Due to other commitments I did not get a chance to see how FOX looked from KDVR-DT via OTA tonight so have no comparison with our local feed.

Just checked out The O.C., OTA. The PQ was awful (extreme graininess/noise) but that is
totally normal for all FOX HD progs, Bernie Mac being the sole exception.
The pixelation/macro blocking was also no worse than normal.
So, since OC looked exactly like it always does, I'd say the DirecTV feed must have been the culprit.

Have you been keeping up with the news about D** going to Meg-4?

BobPiet

11-04-05, 05:18 PM

TotallyPreWired

11-04-05, 05:51 PM

So doe this mean that if D* still doesn't have Denver DMA up on HD LIL that I can then request a digital test here in loveland and get waivers for HD?

colofan here's the exact info from the SHVERA document:
A third alternative, created by the 2004 SHVERA statute, will allow for signal testing at your household to determine if you are “served” by a digital signal over-the-air. In some cases, if you are shown to be “unserved,” you would be eligible for distant digital signals, provided you subscribe to local-into-local analog service if it is offered. However, this digital testing option is not available until April 30, 2006 (in the top 100 television markets) and July 15, 2007 (in all other television markets). In addition, your satellite carrier may refuse to arrange for the digital signal test, and in that case, you may arrange and pay for a test yourself, under the supervision of the satellite carrier. Your satellite carrier can tell you whether you are in a top 100 market and whether it will help you to arrange for a digital signal test once the testing provisions take effect in 2006 or 2007.
I am hoping that this will help get me FOX!
....jc

donyoop

11-04-05, 06:01 PM

Correspondence I received today:

From: Brown, Darrell
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:02 AM

Bob,
We will be moving our HD service to the Republic Plaza site where the
other stations are temporarily located. New equipment has been ordered
and we will be operational from that site before the Super Bowl. How is
your reception for KUSA 9 and KCNC 4? We will have the signal strength
as theirs.
Darrell Brown

Big assumption: on-time flange delivery.

kcosby

11-04-05, 06:34 PM

Scooper

11-04-05, 08:25 PM

It's always better to put your OTA antenna outside . Putting it in the attic reduces the amount of signal strength it gets, and could promote other problems. (multipath, etc.).

TotallyPreWired

11-04-05, 09:12 PM

From: Brown, Darrell
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:02 AM

Bob,
We will be moving our HD service to the Republic Plaza site where the
other stations are temporarily located. New equipment has been ordered
and we will be operational from that site before the Super Bowl. How is
your reception for KUSA 9 and KCNC 4? We will have the signal strength
as theirs.
Darrell Brown
It looks like KMGH will probably be history for me! :( However, since I got ABCW from D* it's not that big of a deal anymore. However, this is probably my strongest signal(Go Figger!).

Anyway I checked on something that's kind of interesting. RP stations:

Sta ___Power________My Lock Status_____Rad Pattern
**************************************************
KCNC __11.0 kW ____50% of the time ____Very Good
KRMA __13.8 kW ___100% of the time ____Best
KUSA __10.9 kW _____0% of the time ____Very Good

What's interesting here, is that it looks like it's just a matter of a few kW between receiving a RP station(at my location), and not receiving it. Since the radiation patterns are all very similar, it looks like it boils down to the power(or lack of it) that they are broadcasting with. And, KUSA has a very strong signal here, it just won't lock. Most of my problems seem to be multipath related(They all fluctuate, but KUSA drops to zero).

So the bottom line is:
If these chumps would boost their meager power by about 50%(to a wopping 15kW), I could pretend that I lived in Denver! :rolleyes:
....jc

sunshinedawg

11-04-05, 09:16 PM

TotallyPreWired

11-04-05, 09:46 PM

Does anybody here really believe that they will be operational by the superbowl if they have just now ordered their equipment? I ddin't think so. I hope they have preordered their flange. ;)
I do! :p A good quality China Made Coat Hanger can be purchased at any Wally World! :eek:
....jc

roller11

11-04-05, 10:04 PM

Does anybody here really believe that they will be operational by the superbowl if they have just now ordered their equipment? I ddin't think so. I hope they have preordered their flange. ;)

Oh, I believe they will...of course they didn't say WHICH superbowl.

CEB II

11-04-05, 11:10 PM

Haven't had a chance to throw in my observations regarding the Broncos/Eagles game on Fox last Sunday. Usually, I'm really impressed w/ Fox's HD for NFL broadcasts and their primary camera shot wasn't an exception for that game. It was much better than the primary camera shot PQ I get from KCNC.

That said, I was looking for roller11's SD in the HD issue because of one of his pre-game posts in that regard. What I saw was a lot more SD for that game than I can remember for any other Fox NFL game.

However, the SD was consistently dependent on the camera involved. I did not see any HD scene that morphed into SD during a play. Yes, some replays were in SD, but even if they looked similar to the real-time camera angle in HD, they were different cameras.

I didn't keep a recorded count, but as I remember it, there were at least 3 SD camera shots being integrated into the broadcast. I can't remember seeing more than 1 SD camera shot used in previous Fox NFL HD broadcasts, and this was their national game of the week. Maybe there was an HD equipment shortage due to HD equipment repair problems or something. The whole broadcast setup at Invesco was by Fox network operations, so I wouldn't expect the local affiliate management to have any knowledge of the how the game was produced, nor would I expect Fox Sports' management to care much about a small affiliate's inquiry.

I'll try to watch another Fox NFL game this Sunday to see if it is produced any differently than the Denver game was.

CEB II

11-04-05, 11:20 PM

BTW, someone commented earlier that KMGH's signal problems coming out of the MNF fiasco had been rectified. Oh contrare! The last time I locked KMGH was for Lost the week after the MNF fiasco. Their signal hasn't been strong enough since for me to get a lock. I'm so tired of fiddling w/ my XG91, trying to hold a lock on KMGH-DT, that I'm probably going to just wait for their move to RP.

CEB II

11-04-05, 11:26 PM

It looks like KMGH will probably be history for me! :( However, since I got ABCW from D* it's not that big of a deal anymore. However, this is probably my strongest signal(Go Figger!).

Anyway I checked on something that's kind of interesting. RP stations:

Sta ___Power________My Lock Status_____Rad Pattern
**************************************************
KCNC __11.0 kW ____50% of the time ____Very Good
KRMA __13.8 kW ___100% of the time ____Best
KUSA __10.9 kW _____0% of the time ____Very Good

What's interesting here, is that it looks like it's just a matter of a few kW between receiving a RP station(at my location), and not receiving it. Since the radiation patterns are all very similar, it looks like it boils down to the power(or lack of it) that they are broadcasting with. And, KUSA has a very strong signal here, it just won't lock. Most of my problems seem to be multipath related(They all fluctuate, but KUSA drops to zero).

So the bottom line is:
If these chumps would boost their meager power by about 50%(to a wopping 15kW), I could pretend that I lived in Denver! :rolleyes:
....jc

According to the stats, KRMA's antenna is also at a higher elevation than either KCNC or KUSA, by 6 and 5 meters respectively. That could be as big a factor for your reception as is the puny ERP.

roller11

11-05-05, 12:27 AM

Haven't had a chance to throw in my observations regarding the Broncos/Eagles game on Fox last Sunday. Usually, I'm really impressed w/ Fox's HD for NFL broadcasts and their primary camera shot wasn't an exception for that game. It was much better than the primary camera shot PQ I get from KCNC.

That said, I was looking for roller11's SD in the HD issue because of one of his pre-game posts in that regard.

Do this: Turn up the volume all the way, and disconnect all but your DD5.1 rear speakers. Precisely coincident with the switch to SD, the announcers voices bleed over to the rear speakers at a reduced volume. So if you hear this bleed over,
then it is in what I'm calling SD widescreen.
This SD mode is not as pronounced as normal SD. It is subtle, but noticeable.
The picture goes slightly fuzzy/blurry, and those ugly jaggies appear on all diagonal
lines (i.e. aliasing). It is not a dramatic difference, but strong enough that
I noticed it without anyone pointing it out to me.
I have seen it come and go in every NFL since they started doing SD last year,
also the MLB games.
Most of all, it has nothing whatever to do with the camera switching. Usually it happens when the primary cam is on, but it may stay on when the camera switches to another HD cam. It can stay in this mode for 10 seconds, or several
minutes, it is completely random when it changes from HD to Sd, or SD to HD.

Try the rear speaker test above and let us know.

Smuuth

11-05-05, 11:43 AM

Hey All:

I've been lurking in this forum for several years. Thanks for all the great info.

I finally took the HDTV plunge last week, and picked up a Directv HR10-250, and a Channel Master 4228.

I can see the tops of the buildings downtown from the second story of my house, and I did a quick test with the antenna by placing it in a second story window inside the house, pointed toward downtown, and got the following results.

KWGN - 80+
KCNC - 80+
KRMA - 90+
KDVR - 90+
KUSA - 90+
KBDI - 90+
KDEN - 70+

KMGH - bounces between 0 and 40

I live about a mile east of Parker and Arapahoe. Before I do the work of mounting the antenna on the roof, or in the attic, I was wondering if there was anyone near me that has successfully locked in KMGH? And, given the information above, if placing the antenna on the roof instead of in the attic would greatly increase my chances of receiving KMGH? My wife would prefer it be in the attic.

Thanks!
I live close to Quincy and Chambers and had much the same results as you are seeing when I was using an old RS VHF/UHF general purpose antenna, though it was outside about 10' off the ground.

I bought a CM 4228 and raised it another 7-8' and aimed it at about 296° magnetic which according to AntennaWeb (http://www.antennaweb.org) is between the actual bearings of KMGH (294°) and the RP stations (298°).

I am now getting much better signal strength on all the others and KMGH is consistently around 70-80%. I would recommend you go to the AntennaWeb site and determine the best bearing for your location.

I agree that you should put the CM 4228 outside for the best results, but you can still keep it below the roof peak and should be able to get a good signal if you have line of sight to downtown.

kcosby

11-05-05, 03:32 PM

Thanks Smuuth!

twelsh27

11-05-05, 05:42 PM

Newbie to all of this, but I am a D* HD customer and am in Northwest Arvada so I cannot get Fox. NBC, CBS no problem and ABC no chance with the existing setup. But having read about the O&O local stations I figured it would be a slam dunk to get Fox West.

Got the postcard today and all locals were denied. Is this something new that they are denying?

I read a few posts that made it sound like they were contractually obligated to grant permission for the LA signal - but obviously I read too much into it.

Is there anything else I can do?

Thanks for the help.

twelsh27

11-05-05, 07:06 PM

Why can't you get Fox via OTA in NW Arvada? Those of us a little further north in Lafayette and Louisville can get it easily, along with WB and PBS. What antenna do you have? Where is pointed? Anyway, a few months ago I called DirecTV and had no trouble getting FOXW and CBSW turned on right away as there are some blanket waivers or something for our area. ABC and NBC had to go through waivers which were denied.

I have no idea why I cannot receive their signal - I've tried 2 different indoor (Silver Sensor and something else recommened here) and then the initial hot dog grill outside that D* installed.

I had also seen some map on the internet that showed a pocket area which I am in, typically not being able to receive KDVR. So I was not too surprised to not get it, but I pretty much stopped worrying about other antenna solutions figuring the FOXW would be a no brainer.

milehighmike

11-07-05, 01:07 AM

The sound was out of sync on 9.1 all evening, including the 10:00 news. Anyone else notice this?

santellavision

11-07-05, 09:16 AM

Mike,

I watched the live West Wing and no sync issue. It might be your receiver.

milehighmike

11-07-05, 12:17 PM

Ernie,

Thanks for the reply. If it continues on my Dish 811 tonight, I'll check my Accurian to see if it shows up on that receiver also.

kcosby

11-07-05, 12:37 PM

Hey All:

I ended up putting my CM 4228 on the roof, and I'm now getting an average signal strength on KMGH of around 55. I'm surprised my HR10-250 locks on to the signal as well as it does. I might see the signal break up one or two times an hour.

The cable run from the antenna to my receiver is pretty long. ~90' from the antenna to my multiswitch, and another ~40' from the multiswitch to the receiver. I'm wondering if there is anything left to try that might improve the signal. Maybe a pre-amp? Any thoughts? If not, I'm happy just being able to get KMGH at all.

Thanks!

santellavision

11-07-05, 04:46 PM

In the metro area, a pre-amp most likely will hurt, not help. But, Rule #1, You'll never know until you try.

The only other thing is to try some different locations on the roof. Rule #2, It's a game of inches. And Rule 3, A straight direct cable run is always best. It might be worth a try to run the antenna cable directly into the receiver without the multi-switch or additional RF fittings. (I know this may be impossible, it's just a suggestion)

Geof

11-07-05, 05:21 PM

Damn, I though a direct cable run was Rule number 2 .... I hope there's not a quiz afterwards.... :)

santellavision

11-07-05, 08:59 PM

Geof,
You've forgotten the Rules already?

Remember #4?
Bang your head against the wall, then drink heavily, for wasting a full day to trying to pull in KMGH.

Geof

11-07-05, 09:43 PM

Geof,
You've forgotten the Rules already?

Remember #4?
Bang your head against the wall, then drink heavily, for wasting a full day to trying to pull in KMGH.Hah! I screwed that one up too. I somehow skipped the part about banging my head against the wall and just started drinking heavily...;)

Dave6833

11-08-05, 11:49 AM

Smuuth

11-08-05, 02:52 PM

Hah! I screwed that one up too. I somehow skipped the part about banging my head against the wall and just started drinking heavily...;)...and here I didn't even know there was a rule about starting to drink heavily...Does doing it without knowing the rule break the rule? ;)

mattn6

11-08-05, 04:31 PM

I stumbled across this article in Machine Design magazine last night. It describes a new technique for TV stations to combine their analog and digital signals on the same frequency. Click here (http://www.machinedesign.com/asp/viewSelectedArticle.asp?strArticleId=59157&strSite=MDSite&catId=2) to read the article.

Seems to me this would be an interesting way for the local Denver stations to get to higher-power DTV with the transmitters on Lookout Mountain before the cut-off date. Unfortulately this sounds like it isn't readily available yet, and would require a software upgrade to set-top boxes and TVs. In other words, it's probably a pipe dream.

The issue is that it is not an ATSC defined transmission method. It would take longer to pass the ATSC committee to allow such a broadcast than the currently planned Federal cut-off.

It will take less time to get the State Legislature to "trump" the JeffCo decision by "grandfathering" all existing TV towers as being automatically approved and zoned for ATSC transmission. (Why hasn't anyone taken this step?)

Or the Feds (FCC) could make the same mandate that ATSC IS "grandfathered" on all existing TV towers independant of frequency.

# Matt

oxothuk

11-08-05, 05:02 PM

It will take less time to get the State Legislature to "trump" the JeffCo decision by "grandfathering" all existing TV towers as being automatically approved and zoned for ATSC transmission. (Why hasn't anyone taken this step?)
Because it's not a crisis yet. The legislature will get involved only when the analog shutoff date arrives and Jeffco tries to prevent the stations from using their existing towers.

santellavision

11-08-05, 05:53 PM

Anybody get a date yet for Judge Jackson's next hearing?

TotallyPreWired

11-08-05, 07:49 PM

Washington, DC – The Federal Communications Commission today adopted a Clarification Order and Notice of Proposed Rulemaking that clarifies the Commission’s existing guidelines for stations’ interim use of DTS and initiates a rulemaking regarding the future use of Distributed Transmission Systems (DTS) by digital television stations.

DTS technology would allow stations to employ multiple synchronized transmitters spread around a station’s service area, rather than a single-transmitter, enabling broadcasters to fill gaps in service coverage. Each transmitter would broadcast the station’s DTV signal on the same channel, similar to analog TV booster stations but more efficiently. The major benefit offered by DTS is to afford over-the-air service in areas previously blocked by terrain.

In the Second DTV Periodic Review Report and Order, adopted in August 2004, the Commission approved the use of DTS and set guidelines for DTV stations’ interim use of the technology. The Commission also committed to undertake a rulemaking proceeding to adopt rules for DTS operations.

The Clarification Order adopted today reiterates that DTS transmitters operating on an interim basis must be located within the DTV station’s predicted noise-limited service contour, which is based on the station’s existing authorization.

The Notice proposes rules to govern the use of DTS as an alternative to single transmitter systems for digital television stations and seeks comment on how DTV receivers and converter boxes will work where stations use DTS. The proposed rules for DTS service would provide for stations to use DTS to serve currently authorized areas. They would also allow stations to apply to maximize their coverage using DTS once the current freeze on the filing of most DTV applications is lifted, generally allowing DTS service in an area that is comparable to the area they could cover with a single transmitter.

More specifically, the Commission addresses the following proposals in the Notice:

· Propose to afford primary regulatory status to the multiple transmitters used in DTS within the areas that the DTS transmitters are authorized to serve.

· Propose to maintain protections against “cherry-picking” established in the interim guidelines. Licensees using DTS technology would have to provide, at a minimum, essentially the same level of service they would use with their single-transmitter facilities.

· Propose to apply the existing DTV rules for effective radiated power, antenna height and emission mask.

· Propose to permit Class A TV licensees to use DTS technologies to operate a single frequency network of a group of commonly owned digital Class A stations.

The item will be available online at www.fcc.gov.

Action by the Commission, November 3, 2005, by Clarification Order and Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (FCC 05-192). Chairman Martin, and Commissioners Abernathy, Copps, and Adelstein.

MB Docket No. 05-312

--FCC--

Media Bureau Contacts: Gordon Godfrey (202) 418-2193
Evan Baranoff (202) 418-7142
Eloise Gore (202) 418-1066
This technology sounds like a perfect fit for mountainous areas such as ours.

Comments?

Also, tomorrow is the rumored start date for D*'s implementation of Significantly Viewed stations. We'll see if that happens.
....jc

bkleven

11-08-05, 10:04 PM

sunshinedawg

11-08-05, 10:05 PM

I'm all for it. There's a radio tower a 1/4 of a mile from my place up in Longmont. They could put as many repeaters up there as they want! :p

donyoop

11-09-05, 09:36 AM

Gakon,

Would you mind generating a profile for my new house in Longmont? We are planning to move in around the first of the year. It's possible that by that time KMGH (i.e. SuperBowl) could be available over D*, comcrap, and OTA. Well, D* and comcrap at least. ;-)

40:08:22.25N
105:10:17.75W

Thanks!

No chance for KMGH HD on D* by the Superbowl. More like April.

CEO Chase Carey announced delays of the 1st 12 DMAs in the D* earnings call last week, which pushes out the 2nd 12 DMAs.

Don

roller11

11-09-05, 10:22 AM

Anyone feel that HD from KCNC-DT (CBS 4-1) via OTA has been a bit soft recently?
"How I met Your Mother" and "Out Of Practice" just didn't look as sharp as usual tonight.

Just checked Out of Practice, looked as sharp as usual. Of course
my DLP set can't fully resolve a true HD signal since I have only
1280x720 pixels, so I'm not the best person to judge.

Jetlag

11-09-05, 10:59 AM

...copied from a reliable news source that I forgot to write down:

Japan gears up for analog broadcasts’ demise
Next month, Japan’s Association for the Promotion of Digital Broadcasting will launch their “Let’s! Terrestrial Digital Winter ‘05” campaign. With analog broadcasts set to come to an end in 2011 in Japan, the association is wasting no time letting people across the country know. At participating stores, you’ll be seeing yellow or blue stickers on all devices with terrestrial analog or terrestrial digital tuners — yellow lets you know that when 2011 rolls around, you’ll either have to purchase an entirely new set or purchase an external tuner box. Blue means you’re good to go when digital broadcasts finally take over. Things seem to be moving along nicely for digital broadcasts in Japan; the association plans to have 50% coverage of households across country by as early as the end of this year.
http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/images/306.jpg
In a related story, electronics stores throughout the city of Denver and surrounding area will be placing black stickers on all of their devices containing ATSC tuners. This is to signify the complete and total lack of full power DTV and HDTV broadcasts throughout the Denver television market, and the local broadcasters complete lack of concern. The black color was chosen to match the robe of Judge Jackson. When asked for comment, a young salesperson at a Denver Best Buy responded, “HDTV, What’s that?” CARE Colorado spokesperson Deb Carney added, 'We got ours, so bite me!'

Jetlag

11-09-05, 11:41 AM

Good news:

KMGH's new DTV transmitter from Germany has just cleared US Customs!

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/images/mouseWheel_1.jpg

Bad news:

The "power source", (a specially trained hamster) was deported by the Dept of Homeland Security. The imminently qualified and superbly trained Bush appointee (a former cheese judge) recognized the possibility of an elaborate terrorist plot through perceived 'irregularities' in his passport and other documents. "He was only 3" tall, had beady eyes and was continually asking about our stockpiles of cheese." Haliburton was immediately awarded a 1 billion contract to find an alternative power source.

Geof

11-09-05, 12:16 PM

A little bored this morning Jetlag? :)

Although I do think that hampster powered toy transmitter is a pretty close replica of what KMGH will be putting up for sale on eBay when they move to Lookout "Shortly".

santellavision

11-09-05, 03:15 PM

I'm all for it. There's a radio tower a 1/4 of a mile from my place up in Longmont. They could put as many repeaters up there as they want! I don't think it would be that easy. You'd have to deal with... L-A-R-E. Longmont Area Residents for the Environment.

santellavision

11-09-05, 05:44 PM

Just wanted to pass this along. I've heard some good things about the Antennacraft MXU antennas. Might be worth a shot for some of us.
http://www.antennacraft.net/MXU.htm

Or for the extreme locations, try the 180" Badboy!
http://www.antennacraft.net/HD.htm

Geof

11-09-05, 05:49 PM

I don't think it would be that easy. You'd have to deal with... L-A-R-E. Longmont Area Residents for the Environment.Oh NO, that would be a B-A-R-E (Brutal And Redundant Experience). ;)

Sorry, could not resist.....

rblatchley

11-09-05, 06:10 PM

For all you Longmont residents:

Just my luck: I just had Dish Network installed this morning because I was sick and tired of waiting around for Comcast to offer HD in Longmont. A Comcast technician was at my home about 3 weeks ago and said that he'd be surprised if HD was offered in Longmont before the end of Summer 2006. So I said screw it, I'm going with Dish.

Anyway.......now that I have dish installed, I called Comcast to cancel my service. They asked Why and I said because I'm sick of waiting for HD. He said "you're not going to believe this. We just got a memo this morning that they're starting testing in Ft. Collins, Loveland and Longmont this week and HD will be available next week in Longmont." Just my luck.

Anyway, a friend of mine that also wants HD in Longmont didn't believe it. I called back and a different rep told me 3-4 months. Comcast seems like a bunch of liars to me and nobody knows what the heck is going on.

If there's anyone else in Longmont waiting for Comcast HD, give them a call and see if you can get a solid answer. I didn't sign a contract with Dish just in case something like this happened.....thank God.

Has anyone else heard anything from Comcast?

PAW

11-09-05, 06:53 PM

sunshinedawg

11-09-05, 10:00 PM

Yep, comcast is going to have HD in Longmont by the end of the week and that ABC "station" out of Denver (I know calling them a station is way generous on my part ;) ) is going to be broadcasting off of RP by the superbowl. Good thing I've lived in NY all these years. :rolleyes:

gakon

11-10-05, 09:07 AM

Would you mind generating a profile for my new house in Longmont?Thanks!Here it is to RP. Remember the top of RP is at 5900' or so. You've got some obstructions, but that doesn't mean you won't get the signals. Sorry it took a while, I missed your post the night you wrote it.

Frazee

11-10-05, 10:16 AM

gregkauf

11-10-05, 10:18 AM

I live in Loveland and I am now getting 2 HD channels, NBC and PBS from Comcast via my motorola 6412. I had heard that Fort Collins, Loveland and Longmont would have HD on 11/22/05. It is encouraging to see that they are at least working on it.

I have been watching this forum for a long time, hoping that more would become available OTA. I currently get WB & FOX OTA. I am just happy to be able to get more local HD, since that is what my family watches the most of, even if it is through Comcast.

Geof

11-10-05, 10:46 AM

Quoting from KMGH's new web site:

However, several TV stations have recently won the approval to construct a 730-foot tower on Lookout Mountain. When that project is complete, HDTV coverage of our station and all of the local stations should be widespread.Yeah I just read that. Got sick when I read the part where they claimed to be the first Denver station. I guess their parking lot counts.

In the meantime the quote you provided is evidence they're all still on crack. They mention nothing about waiting for a Judges approval and their plans to move to Republic Plaza.

At least they didn't say "shortly" when talking about the Lookout project being complete so maybe they were between crack hits when they wrote it.

Art76

11-10-05, 10:47 AM

Hi, been a lurker for a few months. Live at 22nd and Francis in north Longmont
Had Comcast channels 652 KMGH hd, 653 ESPN HD 654 WB2 HD AND 655 FOX31 HDfor a few hours yesterday afternoon before they were wiped. So they really are finally testing for HD in Longmont. Thanks fellows for the help and humour. Appreciate it. Art

TheBert

11-10-05, 02:29 PM

So who will be the first person in Longmont to get KMGH DTV, Will it be from Comcast or OTA from RP. Should we start placing bets on People, Dates and Times?

oxothuk

11-10-05, 02:40 PM

So who will be the first person in Longmont to get KMGH DTV, Will it be from Comcast or OTA from RP. Should we start placing bets on People, Dates and Times?I'd put my money on Comcast.

I sent an note to KMGH yesterday asking if they were aware of the K17CF station broadcasting from Boulder, which may interfere with our ability to receive KMGH-DT even from RP. I got a note back which only said they were "aware of the station".

rblatchley

11-10-05, 04:33 PM

OK all,

I just tried Comcast one more time to see if another person would give me the same information. This rep read an e-mail to me that said they are starting to test HD service in Longmont this week. He said they'd most likely be offering to customers within 30 days.

Question: If Comcast is offering/testing the locals in HD, would they most likely be unencrypted? i.e. would I be able to get them with just a regular QAM tuner in my TV with just the basic cable package? Not sure whether I should dump Dish already or not. Thanks!!

kadok

11-10-05, 04:33 PM

gakon could you generate a profile from my house to RP? I would like to know what I am up against before climbing upon my roof. This reminds me of when TV first came to Denver. I wanted more than one channel and tried to bring in some dx. I did get an unwatchable channel from back somewhere and then gave up.
We used to go up to lookout on our dates and their was nobody for miles.

Thanks!
Bob

oxothuk

11-10-05, 05:09 PM

Question: If Comcast is offering/testing the locals in HD, would they most likely be unencrypted? i.e. would I be able to get them with just a regular QAM tuner in my TV with just the basic cable package? Check the Denver Comcast thread, I'm sure someone over there will have the answer. I doubt they will do anything different in Longmont vs. the other Denver service areas where they already offer HD.

Geof

11-10-05, 05:39 PM

gakon

11-10-05, 09:43 PM

gakon could you generate a profile from my house to RP?

Sure, Bob. But Aurora's a large area, and I'm not Carnac, so you'll have to provide your coordinates. ;)
There are web sites that will provide this information if you plug in your address, as will GPS programs if you have one.

http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/convert?form=address

santellavision

11-10-05, 10:34 PM

Could you please chart my location (when you get a minute) - Thanks!
latitude 39.7018200 longitude -105.2792520

bkleven

11-10-05, 10:57 PM

gakon,

Thanks for the profile. I was afraid that ridge east of Niwot would bite me in the butt, and it looks like it just may. I guess we'll find out in January.

Thanks again!

TotallyPreWired

11-10-05, 11:15 PM

Could you please chart my location (when you get a minute) - Thanks!
latitude 39.7018200 longitude -105.2792520
Ernie, you are getting weak my son. I remember this post:

I not poo-poo'ing your efforts - really. But, just that even if you can get a LOS shot at a transmitter, it still doesn't mean you're gonna' get anything. Or inversely, look at jc, he's getting ABC and shouldn't. It's exactly like the 5 stages of serious illness...

Denial - I'm gonna' beat the odds and get that damn signal!
Anger - This HT thing sucks!!!! F@*% YOU sCARE!
Bargaining - Honey, it's really worth it, really... Can I take you shopping today?
Depression - I've spent thousands on an HDTV, receiver, antennas, cable, preamps etc. Where's the flippin' Xanax???
Acceptance - I'm never gonna' get ABC!

I'm getting a little worried here. Are you feeling ok? You're not filming a documentary for sCARE are you? $$$ is the great equalizer. Please tell us that you are just having a 'weak moment'.
....jc

santellavision

11-10-05, 11:27 PM

Naaaah, I'm fine. In fact, I spoke on the phone today with Marv Rockford and he might have a little task for us coming up. Keep checking the Rocky for a story on HDTV in the very near future.

gakon

11-10-05, 11:35 PM

I was afraid that ridge east of Niwot would bite me in the butt, and it looks like it just may.
Not all of the hills that show up on profiles are named, but that one's called Gun Barrel Hill.

gakon

11-10-05, 11:45 PM

Could you please chart my location
My pleasure. Profile to Republic Plaza is attached. There appears to be a 40 - 50' rise within 0.1 mile from you, but after that the line of sight clears the ridge south of Apex Park at 2 miles. I'm assuming you don't need a profile to Lookout.

santellavision

11-11-05, 12:01 AM

Thanks! That is accurate! Yes, there is a 50' hill right in front of my place. As, I have posted, I do not have any LOS to downtown. But, I still get all but 7, and I can pull in Cheyenne even better. Must be the altitude!

mattn6

11-11-05, 01:53 AM

I was afraid that ridge east of Niwot would bite me in the butt, and it looks like it just may. I guess we'll find out in January.

I wish you a lot of luck - I was unable to get any RP, and I am just East of you (Pike Rd and Renaissance Dr). Gun Barrel Hill is even lower in my profile. I have not had the time to try Cheyenne, WY (gakon did a profile for me and it has possibilities).

Rumors have it that Comcast may be our best shot (or D* if you believe their rollout plans).

# Matt

kadok

11-11-05, 02:35 PM

gakon could you generate a profile from my house to RP? I would like to know what I am up against before climbing upon my roof.

Thanks!
Bob

oops I firgot some numbers. :o
39.480988
104.415777

oxothuk

11-11-05, 05:25 PM

AwesomeFloyd, Rumor I heard from a reliable source is that KTVD should be transmitting something from RP in the next 2 weeks. Any new rumors, now that two weeks have come and gone?

gakon

11-11-05, 08:15 PM

could you generate a profile from my house to RP?Here it is. There are some hills in the way. Have you tried the antenna down low before getting on the roof?

TotallyPreWired

11-11-05, 08:56 PM

Here it is. There are some hills in the way. Have you tried the antenna down low before getting on the roof?
Gakon,
On the KDK profile, what does this phrase mean:
Gain: +1526' - 2330' = -804
I can easily see the the high point is around 6020, and the low point is around 5230. The difference being 790. Close enough compared to the 804 listed. But what is the +1526 and the -2330? What do these numbers mean? Are they the summation of all of the gains encountered and all of the losses encountered along the profile?
....jc

gakon

11-11-05, 09:54 PM

Yes. That's based on the elevation data within the program (which are essentially Trails Illustrated topo maps). Although there's some granularity to the numbers, I think it's reasonable. I carried a friend's GPS with me on a mountain bike ride on a small portion of the Colorado Trail. He downloaded that information and ended up with much larger numbers for total elevation gain and loss than I would have expected. Running the same profile against this program yielded much more reasonable numbers. I believe there was just a lot of noise in the GPS data.

Jetlag

11-11-05, 11:47 PM

Anybody get a date yet for Judge Jackson's next hearing?

No, but will you go to it with me Ernie? Maybe I should try Match.com.

santellavision

11-12-05, 10:35 AM

No, but will you go to it with me Ernie? Maybe I should try Match.com.ROFL. Tim, I know you had all your equipment in the closet, but I had no idea... (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

;)

UHForever

11-12-05, 02:02 PM

Any new rumors, now that two weeks have come and gone?

Oxothuk, nothing new to report. My source was pretty confident, so I'm presuming their Engineers had some sort of setback. I've continued to look for any sort of signal on channel 19 once a day over the past few weeks, but so far there has been zip. I get all RP stations with ease, so I can say with confidence that we're not missing it, there's still not anything there yet. Sorry I have no new info. :(

On another topic, has anyone heard when KBDI's 12-2 Documentary Channel is suppose to begin airing programs? It still just has the "Coming in November" Loop airing the last I checked. I assumed they meant November of 2005 :rolleyes:

rblatchley

11-12-05, 04:00 PM

FYI - I know this is the OTA forum, but I just wanted to let all of the Longmont residents out there that have been waiting years for Comcast to offer HD locals - it's closer than I thought. I just did a scan with my TV's QAM tuner and I was able to pick up ABC, NBC, FOX, WB and ESPN in HD. I'm a little confused as to why I'm receiving ESPN. I figured that it would be scrambled. Anyway......I'm not complaining and it's probably only available because they're testing.

Anyway, if anyone else out there has done a QAM scan, where is CBS? I'd love to see the Broncos game in HD tomorrow. Thanks.

gakon

11-13-05, 09:26 AM

Ernie, I think you might have motivated someone. Check out today's Rocky Mountain News opinion page inside the Post's Perspective section.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion/article/0,1299,DRMN_38_4232292,00.html
Will this do much? Probably not, but it's nice to see the media understands what's going on. I can't wait to see the (S)CARE rants in response to this.

Geof

11-13-05, 10:05 AM

The last sentence summed it up nicely: "But the latest delay is nothing less than shameful."

JMartinko

11-13-05, 10:21 AM

Awesome editorial. Straight, to the point, and hitting the high spots of the long nightmare. Might have even done some good about three years ago. Oh well! At any rate it's nice to see that the normal 'non-scientific' folks in the editorial room aren't buying the (S)CARE drivel either.

santellavision

11-13-05, 10:48 AM

This is the editorial that I mentioned was forthcoming. LCG has asked me to get some of us to write letters to the Rocky's Opinion dept.

letters@RockyMountainNews.com

sCARE and their cronies will no doubt write tons of letters. They've asked us to write and make sure we have counter letters the Rocky can print along with theirs. They don't have to be long, detailed letters, just a few points to counter their lies, mistruths and propaganda.

They would also like us to CC our letters to our Politicians. Guys, this is most likely our last hurrah to cause a stir! We need to do this asap!

http://salazar.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm
http://allard.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home
http://tancredo.house.gov/contact/contact_contacttom.shtml
http://www.house.gov/degette/comment.shtml

santellavision

11-13-05, 10:55 AM

If my little request above isn't enough, Pete just emailed me about the Judge Jackson hearing...In answer to your earlier question, Judge Jackson has agreed to a
briefing schedule where the County has to certify the record by the end
of the year and then the various parties have until early April to file
all the paperwork. A hearing would be set at that time. Likely June or
July of '06.

Geof

11-13-05, 12:25 PM

June or July '06. How utterly sad. Best case now is high power at the end of 2007 IF everything is approved. If the Lookout progress proceeds at the pace of Morrison then I'd bet late 2008 or 2009. This just ain't gonna happen quickly (if at all).

JMartinko

11-13-05, 03:47 PM

If my little request above isn't enough, Pete just emailed me about the Judge Jackson hearing...

Quote:
In answer to your earlier question, Judge Jackson has agreed to a
briefing schedule where the County has to certify the record by the end
of the year and then the various parties have until early April to file
all the paperwork. A hearing would be set at that time. Likely June or
July of '06.

Wow, I see they are putting this on the 'fast track' in the courts. Great news for Denver, should be no problem getting this thing built in the next 3-4 years. Maybe if we get lucky FEMA will be put in charge of the planning too!

keithsimp

11-13-05, 04:14 PM

Great editorial today by the RMN/Denver Post. Finally someone in the media speaks out. It just amazes me why it has taken this long. It's too bad the local stations don't run editorials as well. At one time Denver was the cable capital of the universe. All of the major cable companies were based here. In a way Denver was way ahead of the broadcast curve. But now, unfortunately, we are back in the stone age.
Another pet peeve of mine, is that the most of the consumers, in the Denver area, going out and buying HD tvs are not aware of our lack of HD broadcast and how far behind we are. If the store clerk told the customer at the time the sale, that the only way to get local HD stations (at the proper signal strenght) is to pay for them. Oh and by the way we're the only market in the country like this, everyone else gets free OTA HD signals at full strength, maybe then there would be enough outcry against the NIMBYs in Golden to make a difference.
Ernie is right, we need to follow up in support of this editorial. I'll be composing my letter this week.

dash88

11-13-05, 06:02 PM

Is anybody els having proplems with 4 today I usely have a signal around 70 but today its about 20 at the highest.

Kenneth......

gakon

11-13-05, 06:31 PM

Here's my first cut. Please let me know if I've made any errors. I think the RMN editorial was wise in not using the term "super tower", as kucharsk pointed out a few weeks ago, as this term probably scares some people.

I am glad that at least one of the local media outlets finally spoke up about the fiasco surrounding the digital tower proposed for Lookout Mountain (Opinion, 11/13/05). It is amazing to see the depths to which the opponents of the tower will sink. Several studies have shown no increase (even a decrease!) in cancer rates in the Lookout area with the existing towers. The new tower would replace four existing towers, including one 100' taller than that proposed, reducing the visual impact. The new tower would eliminate the omni-directional signals currently provided by the analog towers, reducing emissions. Lookout Mountain does not just contain TV towers, but also local radio and emergency broadcast (fire, police) towers. Do the tower opponents want to do away with those as well? Any resident of the metro area can drive by Lookout Mountain and see that none of the current towers has any chance of falling on a home in that area, but the expert who testified at the hearing confirmed this. However, the Jeffco commissioners chose to ignore the facts and voted against the tower only to follow through on promises they made just to get elected.
The NIMBY groups fighting the tower have only one agenda: increasing their property values. There is no other reason that has any basis in fact. They believe that the elimination of these towers will allow their property values to skyrocket. But, in fighting the tower, they have cost residents of the City of Golden and Jefferson County a significant amount of money with commission and court hearings. They risk the safety of others throughout the metro area. Residents of Golden should be worried about their elected officials' plans, as some of those officials are on record supporting seizure of the tower land under eminent domain, neglecting the fact that this land is not even in the city limits. And, while trying to fatten their own pocketbooks, the anti-tower folks will be socking it to the people in the metro area who can't afford or don't want to pay for cable or satellite service. Those people will not receive ANY TV signals once the analog signals are shut down, per federal law, in April 2009.
Let's hope that Judge Jackson, in his review of the commission's decision, sees through the politics and rules based on facts. Unfortunately, that review won't happen until mid-2006, just delaying Denver's transition to the future even longer.

JMartinko

11-13-05, 08:44 PM

Great editorial today by the RMN/Denver Post. Finally someone in the media speaks out. It just amazes me why it has taken this long. It's too bad the local stations don't run editorials as well. At one time Denver was the cable capital of the universe. All of the major cable companies were based here. In a way Denver was way ahead of the broadcast curve. But now, unfortunately, we are back in the stone age........................

I actually believe that has contributed to the problem. As long as there is not an HDTV OTA broadcast by all of the stations the only alternative is to pay for Comcast or in a month or two pay for D* for that privilege. If I were running Comcast I would be in no hurry whatsoever to see those towers built. And if Charlie @ E* plans on providing the local in HD anytime in the next few years you can bet he wouldn't want the tower built either.

CEB II

11-13-05, 09:47 PM

Is anybody els having proplems with 4 today I usely have a signal around 70 but today its about 20 at the highest.

Kenneth......

No problems with signal strength throughout the Bronco game today. However, there were some audio breakups during the first quarter.

santellavision

11-13-05, 09:48 PM

gakon,

Nice letter. Get's to the point. I included the horror of Golden now threatening Eminent Domain Seizure to remove the existing towers. Even my neighbors in Golden are appalled at that! Most didn't know they're threatening that.

Don't forget to send it to everybody.

CEB II

11-13-05, 09:57 PM

Didn't watch any Fox NFL games today except for the last minute of the Tampa Bay -vs- Washington game (that Gruden is my kind of coach!) and I didn't see or hear any irregularities during that short time period.

Last Sunday, I carefully watched and listened to the third quarter of the Alanta -vs- Miami game on Fox. I didn't detect any instances of the commentator's audio switching to the rear speakers, nor did I see much of any SD. I noted the use of only one SD camera, w/ all other shots being HD or the best upconverts I've ever seen. No HD morphing to SD during the third quarter. No irregular video during the third quarter. The big difference between the video for this game and the Bronco's game the week before was the use of HD cameras for almost every shot done in the game. I'm convinced that Fox was short some HD cameras for the Bronco game, either due to repair problems or the fact that Denver is 1,000 miles from any NFC city and they didn't want to truck a whole system all that way and back. Just my 2 cents!

milehighmike

11-13-05, 11:47 PM

dash88,

I messed around with my antenna a bit today because I couldn't pick up KWGN reliably all of the time. I noticed that my signal on KCNC dropped from the usual 73-74 down to 60-61 but I was still able to watch the Broncos today without any dropouts, etc. Thought the signal drop may have been due to my messing around with the antenna. Maybe it wasn't.

milehighmike

11-14-05, 12:14 AM

While I don't want to seem to be a pessimist, I really don't think a lot of letter writing to the RMN is going to have any effect on the sCARE situation. Nevertheless, I'll do my part as it can't hurt anything.

I have a slightly different take on this situation than what I think most think. The way I interpret this situation, the prior JeffCo County Commissioners approved the new tower. Judge Jackson's latest charge in this case was to address the falling tower issue raised by sCARE. In the latest and hopefully last involvement by Judge Jackson, I interpret his last ruling as a finite, narrow directive to the current JeffCo County Commissioners to gather "facts" and information regarding the falling tower/destroying homes issue for his determination. He did not, based upon what I read (and I certainly didn't read everything) empower the current Commissioners to vote on the tower proposal again. Their vote merely indicated an end to the fact gathering.

It is now up to Judge Jackson to rule if the prior JeffCo County Commissioners did or did not follow applicable law in passing the tower proposal. Again, IMHO, Judge Jackson has focused his authority to rule on the narrow tower-falling-over issue, and that issue only. If he opines that the additional information garnered via his return of the case to the JeffCo County Commissioners does not justify overturning the prior approval, he can rule that way. Of course, he should rule that way if he is following the law since sCARE didn't prove anything at the last hearing.

To put it in simple terms (I think), if the above was not the case, there is no point in returning the case to Judge Jackson. JeffCo voted it down, end of story. Judge Jackson would not need to affirm the latest JeffCo vote. But since he does need to make a ruling, sCARE has really not won anything yet, other than the latest JeffCo vote.

With that said, where we should be directing our letters is to the courts, which apparently are on another FEMA timetable of six months to address an issue that takes less than 6 hours complete, and to the FCC, which is just standing around like some innocent, disinterested party to this situation.

gakon

11-14-05, 08:27 AM

With that said, where we should be directing our letters is to the courts...(IMO) Courts do not feel pressure the way politicians do. Although I'm not saying that politicians have power with the courts, copying our senators on our letters, and maybe even asking them to step in, might be enough to prompt them to communicate with Judge Jackson to help the process along. I doubt any politician from Colorado would let this situation proceed to the point where the federal government had to step in.

santellavision

11-14-05, 09:31 AM

I agree, there's a lot of 'behind closed doors' dialog that goes on. It's just a big political game. Remember, Judges are all one move away from a better appointment (Can you say Harriett Miers?). That's why it can't hurt to send a letter to our Reps. Why not.

Not that they'll all listen, I send a letter to Diana Degette, (She wrote back and said... Sorry, I am only able to respond to constituents of the First Congressional District of Colorado.) Nice!

Also, I think we all agree that based purely on facts, sCARE had absolutely no case. So, the Judge should rule on law. We'll just have to wait until July.

oxothuk

11-14-05, 11:06 AM

Judges are all one move away from a better appointment (Can you say Harriett Miers?).She wasn't even a judge.

ptmccart

11-14-05, 04:19 PM

gakon

could you generate a profile from my house to RP?

latitude 39.7544890 longitude -104.3372120

gakon

11-14-05, 11:40 PM

could you generate a profile from my house to RP?
Profile is attached, but it doesn't look so good. It's not the worst I've seen, but you've probably got your work cut out for you, even if the top of RP is at 5900'. If you already have an antenna, let us know what you're receiving.

santellavision

11-15-05, 09:35 AM

I'm trying to gather the letters we write to the RMN & Representatives for the LCG. If you guys don't mind CC'ing me with them, that would be great. If not, no worries.

ernie.santella@comcast.net

els74

11-15-05, 08:57 PM

I recently bought a new TV with built in ATSC tuner, can anyone recommend good antenna? I'm fairly new to HDTV and am curious whether I could get HDTV from local stations (I'm located in Westminster). I currently have E* however the receiver doesn't have HDTV capability and at this point I'm not certain if I should get a new receiver due to the fact E* will eventually transition to mpeg4.

Ethan

santellavision

11-16-05, 03:06 PM

Welcome Ethan,

First, You're currently missing out on some awesome network HD programming. And at the moment it's only available over the air. E* hasn't announced any plans yet for carrying Denver stations in HD. You most likely can receive channels 2,4,6,9,31.

I hear you on the issue of waiting for an MPEG-4 receiver, (I'm E* also) but E* most likely will have some sort of support for existing customers. But, another thought is to just get a cheap digital OTA receiver (You would then have to do some switching for 2 receivers).

Antenna-wise, I'd highly recommend either a Channelmaster 3021 or 4228.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmuhf.htm

els74

11-16-05, 10:38 PM

Thanks Ernie. The antennas you recommended appear to be outdoor type. I'm looking for indoor antenna. In a month or two my house will be on market so I don't want to invest outdoor antenna at this time.

I have 301 and 508 receivers. I've been looking at 942 for a while but I'm afraid it may become obsolete when mpeg4 is deployed. Additionally, it seems E* will be releasing new receivers in coming weeks (211 and 411). I don't really know much yet perhaps you do?

As far as digital OTA receiver is concerned, I don't think I need it since my TV has built in ATSC tuner so basically I need a decent antenna correct?

Thanks again for your help.
Ethan

Dave6833

11-17-05, 09:38 AM

Check out this link (http://www.broadcastbuyer.tv/publish/article_6291.shtml) for news about DirecTV's latest satellite launch and schedule for HDTV rollout. They say they "will offer local HD broadcast channels in 12 cities by the end of this year and 24 cities early next year."

bunkers

11-17-05, 09:46 AM

Ethan, the proper antenna for you depends upon where you are located in Colorado ... i.e. miles from the towers you want to recieve ...

I bought the DB4 from antennasdirect and its enabled me to get 16 DTV (many of which are also high def) channels from the North side of Castle Rock. I put it in the attic and just attached it to an exhaust pipe in the attic near an exterior wall (not going thru shingles, just studs and siding. The signal check in my LG HDTV set let me adjust it to an optimal direction, just somewhat west of due north. There is also a signal meter on the 942, but I didn't use it.

If your closer or farther, than another antenna might be better for your needs.
+- 20 miles from my location, I think the DB4 would work great ... but if you down
in a lower valley or obstructed by mountains or buildings ... you may have other
issues to deal with.

I have the 942 ... and yes, you don't need it if your TV has a ATSC tuner ... but you won't be able to record shows in HD (or watch them in HD either) via your satellite rcvr ... thats the main drawback ... plus you'll be switching inputs between satellite and the ATSC a lot ... which has a lower WAF (wife approval factor). I mainly got the 942 so I could record in HD and have the HD locals integrated into the menu ... works great and those Broncos games in HD and DTS ... sweet!

bunkers

11-17-05, 10:04 AM

Plus the DB4 fit into my attic (i.e. it fit in through the attic access) ... whereas a lot of the other antennas are outdoor (as you mentioned) or too big to get into the attic post framing or without a lot of disassembly. The dish guy really was amazed when he saw 16 channels tune on the 942 ... he acted very surprised I got more than 1 or 2 channels. I actually tried the DB4 outside ... and it worked much better in the attic, so for me the height increase was more important than being outdoors. Yeah, it probably would have been ever better outdoors ... but I have HOA(s) rules and neighbors to deal with then.

Scooper

11-17-05, 10:43 AM

bunkers - wrong answer - they have YOU and the FCC to deal with (re. outdoor antennas) . Read the link in my sig....

bunkers

11-17-05, 11:30 AM

Yes, I know I could defend my right to put up any antenna I want ... but since I'm getting the reception from the attic ... it just avoids those battles from occuring. I'll stand up and fight for my right to have an outdoor utility shed ...

santellavision

11-17-05, 11:37 AM

bunkers,

You get 16 OTA channels in Castle Rock? That's unbelievable. Which channels can you get?

Symbios

11-17-05, 03:20 PM

16 channels! How is that even possible? Or are you including subchannels in that number?

bunkers

11-17-05, 03:28 PM

Yeah, I'm including like all 3 of the channel 12s ... but for a guy who likes PBS, I'm happy.

I'm getting the denver locals, except 7 ... and all the PBS(s), Fox 31, KDVR 20 and some other "who cares" channels ... like a shopping channel and a spanish speaking channel and couple of religeous ones.

bunkers

11-17-05, 03:30 PM

Can you explain what a "sub channel" is? I've been confused by the likes of 12-001, 12-002, 12-003 etc. The programming seems to be different on each of them. And if your a barney freak ... then your a happy camper.

oxothuk

11-17-05, 03:45 PM

Can you explain what a "sub channel" is? I've been confused by the likes of 12-001, 12-002, 12-003 etc. Sub-channels are separate program streams carved out of the bits for a single main channel. A Digital TV station transmits 19.3 Mbits per second of data. This is enough for one high-quality High Definition program stream or 3 high-quality Standard Defintion program streams. KRMA uses the first approach, KBDI uses the second approach.

So I'm guessing you from you earlier comments that you get the following channels:
2-1 KWGN
4-1 KCNC
6-1 KRMA
9-1 KUSA
9-2 KUSA
12-1 KBDI
12-2 KBDI
12-3 KBDI
14-1 KTFD
25-1 KDEN
31-1 KDVR
53-1 KWHD
which would be 12 stations.

What are the other 4 you can get? Some from Colorado Springs, maybe?

els74

11-17-05, 03:53 PM

Sounds like 942 is great to have. For the time being, I'm really curious if I can get HD at all. I'm located in Westminster which is about ~10-12 miles so I think indoor antenna should work. DB2 might work well. I'm going to see if something similar is available locally.

santellavision

11-17-05, 06:38 PM

I'm getting the denver locals, except 7 ... and all the PBS(s), Fox 31, KDVR 20Hmmm??? I think you may be confusing OTA HD with OTA Analog. Just becuase they show up in your guide, doesn't mean they are the OTA HD channels. For example, Fox 31 is KDVR and KTVD 20 is only on-the-air in Analog, not HD yet. Not sure how you're getting 20 in HD?

FCHD_Newbie

11-17-05, 06:47 PM

ADent

11-17-05, 07:12 PM

I think Comcast puts all the digital channels in QAM, and the HR250 only can receive 8VSB. Give it try though, some cable systems use 8VSB for the OTA stations and QAM for everything else, but IIRC that is not common now.

The guys in the Denver Comcast forum should be able to tell you which format Comcast uses.

bunkers

11-18-05, 09:51 AM

It is true that some of the 16 channels I mentioned are only in 480p and not true HD. But among the denver network channels, I do get all but 7 in HD (even though the programming often itself isn't in HD).

Thanks oxo ... that looks pretty much like what I'm getting ... I'll have to check to see what the other 4 are ... obviously I don't watch them.

It is true I may be confusing DTV with HD in some cases ... I'm talking 16 DTV UHF channels ... some of which are HD ... other which are 480p (still good, IMHO).

I personally love the channel 6 HD ... those nature shows are amazing looking in HD.

gregkauf

11-18-05, 10:55 AM

I have a newbie question for you gurus out there. I am a current D* sub but am going to try Comcast as they are promising me HD here in FC by 12/1. I have the HD250 and am wondering if I connected the cable to the OTA input if it would receive the digital channels (assuming they are not scrambled) or is my only choice to rent the Comcast HD DVR? Thanks in advance for any help.

Ron

Comcast uses QAM for their HD signals. In theory you should be able to use a QAM tuner to receive the ones that are broadcast in the clear, as people have reported on other sites. I live in Loveland and Comcast does not officially offer HD yet. However, I am getting ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, WB and PBS in HD (located on channels 652-658) from Comcast on my Motoroloa 6412 DVR (its an HD DVR). Rumor has it that it will be offered Nov 22nd, though their customer service still says "no comment". My guess is that if you got a DVR in Fort Collins, or had a QAM tuner, you would get the HDTV channels. People in Longmont are also reporting that they are receiving them.

The future looks rather bleak for HD over OTA up here in Northern Colorado. I have been following this forum for a few months and I think it will be several years yet before the Denver fiasco is resolved. I can get WB and FOX OTA, but they are two channels I spend very little time watching. I dont mind paying Comcast, as I am just greatful that there is finally a way to receive these HD channels up here in this technogoly vacuum we call Loveland/Fort Collins.

DirecTv finally got their 2nd HDTV Sat. up in the air the other day. Sounds like Denver will probably get HDTV from them sometime early next year. However, no Altitude HD feeds for Avs games (and Nuggets for those that are into that), so Comcast is a better option for me.

Cheers,

Greg

keithsimp

11-18-05, 04:16 PM

Are we being too hopeful? Maybe more pressure to get the towers moving or get the local stations off their arses:
HDTV Analog/Digital Cutover moved up. (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=1326281)

Sorry if this has already been posted.

boilerup

11-19-05, 01:44 AM

ADent

11-19-05, 04:22 AM

If you want all the major networks today, look to Canada (if Comcast is not available) - StarChoice/ExpressVue via a broker.

DirecTV is supposed to offer locals soon (I would guess before Mar 1).

No date on ABCs move to the big building, but every other station has taken longer than planned to get their transmitter started there. Its not super simple to set up a HDTV transmitter and everything that goes with it.

santellavision

11-19-05, 09:12 AM

1) Is it better to go with something like the DB4 in the attic or a Terk TV55 (or another antenna I could hide) that I could mount somewhere outside on my roof in a subtle manner?Being in Superior, you are most likely going to need to be big, high and outside. It sounds like you are worried about an antenna showing on your roof? The FCC allows you to put an antenna on your controlled property. HOA's cannot stop you. The wife's another issue, jewelry usually works there.

2) When people recommend antennas, I don't see much mention of amplifiers or antenna rotators. Are they typically needed or used in this area?Amplifiers are hit-or-miss. With all the other powerful Analog OTA channels up in our area (VHS & UHF), amps usually get overloaded. So, as always, it's worth a try, but no guarantees.

3) I think I have a heading of 145 degrees to downtown and about 180 to Lookout mountain so is an antenna rotator even needed? Seems that less than 40 degrees would be narrow enough for a good antenna to handle?Some antenna are very directional and some are bit wider. I believe the DB4 or Channelmaster 3021 are good choices.

4) I'm planning on a climb to my roof tomorrow to see if I have a line of sight to downtown Denver (with binoculars) - will that really tell me anything about my chances of getting good reception?LOS is not do-or-die. You won't be able to predict reception just by that. You will have to put up the antenna. You could start in the attic and then when you can't pull everything in, try outside. And (If I only had a dollar...) It's a game of inches. Literally, move the 'dang thing 2 inches and there it is.
5) Did I see something last week that ABC would be in the same location as NBC and CBS by the Super Bowl?As mentioned above, they say so, but we've all learned to believe it when we actually see it. There's been a huge history of last minute problems, like a flange ordered hasn't come in yet. (8 months later) Or the audio will be screwed-up (for a year), or the PSIP guide info crashes receivers... need I mention more?

P.S. Don't forget to get the booze, you should start drinking heavily now!

oxothuk

11-19-05, 09:23 AM

I'm new to HDTV and I'm trying to figure out how get the major networks OTA in Superior. Any help would be much appreciated.

1) Is it better to go with something like the DB4 in the attic or a Terk TV55 (or another antenna I could hide) that I could mount somewhere outside on my roof in a subtle manner? Go with the DB4 outside. Or better yet, the Channel Master 4228.

2) When people recommend antennas, I don't see much mention of amplifiers or antenna rotators. Are they typically needed or used in this area? They often hurt more than they help. Try without one first.

3) I think I have a heading of 145 degrees to downtown and about 180 to Lookout mountain so is an antenna rotator even needed? Seems that less than 40 degrees would be narrow enough for a good antenna to handle?
The better antennas often have a NARROWER beam width; this helps with multi-path rejection which is critical for DTV reception. However, the Lookout Mountain station are strong enough that you have a good chance of receiving them even with your antenna pointed downtown. Works for me, at least.

4) I'm planning on a climb to my roof tomorrow to see if I have a line of sight to downtown Denver (with binoculars) - will that really tell me anything about my chances of getting good reception?
If you actually have binocular line of sight to the Denver skyscrapers, then DTV reception should be a slam dunk. Just because you don't, however, doesn't mean you are out of luck. IIRC there's a big hill near Wadsworth that sits between most of Superior and downtown; that's what I'd be worried about.

5) Did I see something last week that ABC would be in the same location as NBC and CBS by the Super Bowl? That's what they say, but I wouldn't send out my SB party invitations yet.

Again, thanks for any help.Welcome to the longest thread on avsforum.

Iwanthd

11-19-05, 11:42 AM

Welcome to the longest thread on avsforum.

13,000+ posts and over a half million views later and we are no closer to full power OTA broadcasts than we were in 1999.

Sorry for the downer, but it is just incomprehensible to me.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....

TheBert

11-19-05, 12:06 PM

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....[/QUOTE]

Don't you mean back to are regularly scheduled low powered, pixalated, audio drop out/sync issued wide screen SD if your lucky programming. :rolleyes:

Just kidding.

boilerup

11-19-05, 04:44 PM

Go with the DB4 outside. Or better yet, the Channel Master 4228.

If you actually have binocular line of sight to the Denver skyscrapers, then DTV reception should be a slam dunk. Just because you don't, however, doesn't mean you are out of luck. IIRC there's a big hill near Wadsworth that sits between most of Superior and downtown; that's what I'd be worried about.

Well a trip to the roof this afternoon confirmed the "big hill" between me and downtown. I will order a DB4 and start in the attic, but now I can see why reception is so hard in my area.

The better antennas often have a NARROWER beam width; this helps with multi-path rejection which is critical for DTV reception. However, the Lookout Mountain station are strong enough that you have a good chance of receiving them even with your antenna pointed downtown. Works for me, at least.

BTW, I do get Fox and Channel 2 pretty easily off of cheap rabbit ears (in my basement, no less). If only they'd all go to Lookout mountain...

dr_mal

11-19-05, 07:29 PM

BTW, I do get Fox and Channel 2 pretty easily off of cheap rabbit ears (in my basement, no less). If only they'd all go to Lookout mountain...
Just in case you weren't being sarcastic - they've been trying since the mid-late '90s to get permission to broadcast from Lookout.

santellavision

11-19-05, 10:35 PM

Hi David, you've been quiet for a while. Have you started working on a new donut pic yet? ;)

dr_mal

11-20-05, 12:26 AM

Hi David, you've been quiet for a while.
Hey, when there's nothing new to talk about... I'm looking forward to some discussion of UPN-HD before long. I should ping my contact again and see if there's any news.
Have you started working on a new donut pic yet? ;)
I really don't think I can top a Boston Creme donut in Boston - but if you have any ideas, I'm willing to try. You know, for science :D

gkanders

11-20-05, 01:25 AM

I really don't think I can top a Boston Creme donut in Boston - but if you have any ideas, I'm willing to try. You know, for science :D

Bavarian Creme donut in ... ;) If it were me, I'd do it in October, and wash the donut down with many local brews :)

Joe Redifer

11-20-05, 02:52 AM

I have a question that for the life of me I can't figure out. If I constantly hold my indoor antenna and assume a funky pose with one leg up in the air and one of my arms bent upwards with my fingers spread (except for one which holds a coat hanger), I am able to receive channels 7.1 and 7.2 just fine.... as long as I don't move too much or let go of the antenna. My question is this: What the hell is the purpose of channel 7.2? I see absolutely no reason whatsoever for it to exist. Channel 4 doesn't see the need for a 4.2 with 480i programming. All channel 7 480i content is upscaled to their 7.1 HDTV channel, so why does 7.2 exist?

Can we pass a law against such bandwidth-stealing stupidity?

santellavision

11-20-05, 09:33 AM

At the moment 7 isn't using 7.2 for anything important. But they have talked about using the sub-channel for a 24-hour hispanic news channel. So, they are ready to go. Sub-channels were a perk the FCC gave them to generate more income.

TotallyPreWired

11-20-05, 10:15 AM

If I constantly hold my indoor antenna and assume a funky pose with one leg up in the air and one of my arms bent upwards with my fingers spread (except for one which holds a coat hanger), I am able to receive channels 7.1 and 7.2 just fine.... as long as I don't move too much or let go of the antenna.

If the rest of the country only knew the lengths that people in Denver are going thru to get a digital signal. ;)

What the hell is the purpose of channel 7.2? I see absolutely no reason whatsoever for it to exist. Channel 4 doesn't see the need for a 4.2 with 480i programming. All channel 7 480i content is upscaled to their 7.1 HDTV channel, so why does 7.2 exist?
I assume, as Ernie indicated, that it's just a 'test toy' until they have some programming for it. The last time that I looked, KGWN in Cheyenne is soing the same exact thing with 5.2.

Can we pass a law against such bandwidth-stealing stupidity?
Not going to happen. The bad news could be what the future brings. Suppose stations start finding ways to produce more $$$ with SD subchannels. What's going to happen to HD broadcasts then? :mad:
....jc

TotallyPreWired

11-20-05, 10:26 AM

I just noticed that somebody forgot to change the time on the server. Let's get with it. We depend on the post times to be correct! :p

We're struggling with HD here, we've got higher priorities to deal with. Can someone please change the system time? :rolleyes:

As I post this, the time really is 08:26 MDT.
....jc

dr_mal

11-20-05, 10:40 AM

Bavarian Creme donut in ... ;) If it were me, I'd do it in October, and wash the donut down with many local brews :)
That's not a bad idea, but it's not gonna happen anytime in the near future. Like before Denver gets full power OTA HDTV ;)

mknoebel

11-20-05, 10:55 AM

Iwanthd

11-20-05, 11:22 AM

I hope it was not an early season oversight by the blackout police, but I watched the Avalanche game v. the Kings last night on HDNet. I thought the broadcast was not quite as crisp as I remember. It may have had something to do with the lighting at Staples Center.

ByH2O

11-20-05, 11:24 AM

Grr...

It was blacked out here...

Timay

11-20-05, 01:23 PM

Mr. gakon, would you please run a profile from 16506 East Stanford Place, Aurora, to the infamous RP, please?

Thanks!

Tim

TotallyPreWired

11-20-05, 01:38 PM

TPW,

Your post is marked 8:26 am to me. Maybe something in your preferences. Go to edit options in the user cp.
Hmmm, it's set to:
(GMT - 7) Mountain Time (US & Canada)

Maybe the 'Automatically detect' thingy is El Broko.
....jc

TotallyPreWired

11-20-05, 01:55 PM

There are a couple of posts about this, along with a "fix" in the Forum Support section here...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=43
Thanks Aka, I found it. Apparently my 'Cookies' were old. Logging out fixed the problem. Now, why they are storing time related info in cookies is beyond me.

Back to business:
New question: Are people living in Douglas county, and getting SD LIL from D*, getting all of the Denver channels(including KDVR)?

I'm contemplating the big 'move' when Denver gets HD LIL in a few months. Douglas is the best choice, because once Significantly Viewed channels start showing up, I'll still be able to get one C/S local, and that's important for school closing info and all that.
....jc

UHForever

11-20-05, 02:43 PM

I'm looking forward to some discussion of UPN-HD before long. I should ping my contact again and see if there's any news.

Dr. Mal,

I'm very curious to hear what your contact says. I spoke to my 'friend of a friend' a couple of days ago, and he confirmed that KTVD has definitely hit an unspecified snag, that had set them back. He did not, however, have an updated timetable for a KTVD on-air date from RP. Hopefully your souce might be able to fill in the gaps.

I'm getting impatient for my HD "Veronica Mars" :cool:

TotallyPreWired

11-20-05, 04:12 PM

New question: Are people living in Douglas county, and getting SD LIL from D*, getting all of the Denver channels(including KDVR)?

Slow Sunday. I guess living in a DMA doesn't necessarily mean that you get that DMA's locals from D*. I tried Westcreek, CO 80866. It's in Douglas county, but D* gives it C/S local channels? Weird.

So, I guess that I'll need to move all the way to Deckers, CO 80135. D* is showing Denver channels there.

Boy, this 'moving' business can be tricky! :p
....jc

gakon

11-20-05, 06:15 PM

would you please run a profile from 16506 East Stanford Place, Aurora, to the infamous RP, please?
Here it is. Not bad at all.

dash88

11-20-05, 07:24 PM

gakon, would you please run a profile from lat 39.7736610 lon -104.7616240

What does a profile show you anyway?
Thank You very much.
Kenneth..........................

gakon

11-20-05, 07:58 PM

What does a profile show you anyway? It shows you if there are any natural obstructions in the line of sight between you and the target. The profile does not show any man made structures. If you can draw a line from your location to RP, for example, without intersecting any terrain, you should have no problem getting reception, assuming a bunch of other stuff (e.g., you're not too far away). But ther are no absolutes with OTA reception. TotallyPreWired, for example, lives south of Woodland Park and can receive KMGH, the weakest (by far) station broadcasting HD in Denver. His line of sight is not completely clear, either. In all honesty, I'm not sure if any of the profiles I've run have done anything tangible to help anyone actually improve their reception, but they're pretty easy for me to do, so if someone asks, I'll run it. In your case, you're only 12.3 miles away from RP. And, since the top of RP is over 5900', you've got a clear line of sight.

Joe Redifer

11-20-05, 08:21 PM

Any news yet from KMGH about the Superbowl broadcast? I read about 2 dozen pages back that KMGH would be looking into "solutions" or some such nonsense so more people would be able to watch the Superbowl in HD over the air. Have they been working on anything?

milehighmike

11-20-05, 10:53 PM

KMGH has an application on file with the FCC for a new STA with a 6 kW transmitter. The latitude and longitude for the transmitter location in the application is the same as the other Republic transmitters - KUSA, KCNC, and KRMA. The FCC web site does not indicate the application has been acted upon yet, so I suppose KMGH cannot do much until it is.

KMGH is my strongest signal, so all I expect is probably some degradation of my reception with a move to Republic. But I'm sure I will still be able to receive the signal and the change in location should help everyone north of downtown. Seems like an upgrade, if you can call it that, from a 1.91 kW transmitter to a 6 kW transmitter may not be worth the effort, but I suppose it's better than just moving the 1.91 kW'er to Republic. Perhaps its an issue with available electric service at the building, especially if KTVD is also going to start transmitting from Republic also.

boilerup

11-20-05, 11:02 PM

boilerup, from Superior you might be successful with a 40" Yagi from Radio Shack. This under-rated antenna worked well from my location in S. Lafayette (lower down than Superior and with a high ridge between here and downtown Denver). I also tried a DB4 and it didn't seem to work any better (it just looked uglier) so I sent it back and stuck with the Yagi. Anyway, it couldn't hurt to try, especially as its easy to return stuff to Radio Shack if it doesn't work out.

Hey, thanks for the advice. I've already ordered the DB4 and since it'll be in my attic, I don't really care what it looks like. But if it doesn't work well, I'll be happy to try another antenna.

What HD channels can you get in Lafayette?

Frazee

11-21-05, 10:40 AM

dash88

11-21-05, 02:18 PM

Thanks gakon for the explanation, So is ch. 4 the second weakest because my best signal from them is 70, I get high 80's to 90 for 2,6,9,12,31 except 7 I get 0.

TotallyPreWired

11-21-05, 02:38 PM

gakon

11-21-05, 02:51 PM

So is ch. 4 the second weakest because my best signal from them is 70
I think Channel 4 is weakest because the HD channel is at a higher frequency, which has greater attenuation (?). I guess I'm looking for confirmation/correction - I thought I had seen that explanation posted here before.

TotallyPreWired

11-21-05, 03:06 PM

I think Channel 4 is weakest because the HD channel is at a higher frequency, which has greater attenuation (?). I guess I'm looking for confirmation/correction - I thought I had seen that explanation posted here before.

Path losses at UHF

Radio propagation loss through space rises with increased frequency. If TV stations operating on channel 1 (57.25 MHz) and channel 68 (795 MHz) radiate equal power, have antennas at the same height, and are equal distances from the receiving antenna, the channel 2 signal will be 10 times stronger than the ch 68 signal.

Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the frequency; so UHF will be 20 dB weaker than band 1, all other factors being equal.
HTH,
....jc

dr_mal

11-21-05, 04:39 PM

Update on KTVD-DT from a reliable source:

They have all the pieces they need except for one. All the parts from overseas arrived, cleared customs, and are in place. The last piece they need to go live (not a flange!) is coming from within the US and hasn't arrived yet. Hopefully in the next week or two. Then it needs to get installed on RP. They've already tested the communication between their facility and the top of RP, and that's working.

From what I heard, I'm confident they'll be up and running by the end of the year.

My source said Comcast coverage should come, but not until at least 60 days after they go live OTA.

I'll pass along any updates I get...

(woo hoo! Top of the page!)

Timay

11-21-05, 04:54 PM

Here it is. Not bad at all.

Thanks you for the report! This is a friends home that bought his HDTV at the same time I got mine, last February, and has not had an HD signal run through it! I'm going over tomorrow to help him get OTA HD so we can watch the game in HD while we are over there for thanksgiving.

BTW, I live near Arapahoe Rd and Broadway and can see downtown through my living room window, hence I get all the channels from downtown, including 7 :D

Tim

JackinThornton

11-21-05, 05:12 PM

HT_Jake

11-21-05, 06:00 PM

I am moving to the south side of Genesee off Daisy Lane (you could walk down the mountain to Kittridge practically). Any chance of reception there?

TotallyPreWired

11-21-05, 06:32 PM

I have a question. I have e*, and a 921. I receive all but KMGH-DT, however KCNC-DT just seems to pixelate VERY bad, making Bronco games almost unwatchable. My fix for this is I have a splitter going from my antenna directly into my Sony TV with internal Digital tuner, which I do during Bronco games and the picture and sound are perfect (by Denver standards).
A splitter off the main antenna feed, ok. Where do the 2 feeds from the splitter go to(obviously one to the Sony)?
The Sony also has a QAM tuner, and I have a comcast feed to view just "the so-called Denver Channel." However the KCNC doesn't show signal most of the time with my QAM tuner on 18.1.
I assume the 18.1 is the channel designation from cable?
Should I try a FM filter on my OTA antenna? I know because KCNC-DT is such a high frequency it is causing this, but I was hoping the pixelation is caused from something else besides the crappy OTA-DT tuner e* decided to put in the 921. It would be nice to pause a game for loud kids/potty breaks etc.
How is your reception of KBDI? When I get pixelation, it's caused by a low signal level, so I'm not sure it's your tuner. An FM trap may rid some noise from your signal, but I would try that as a last resort.
....jc

HDJello

11-21-05, 08:08 PM

I have a question. I have e*, and a 921. I receive all but KMGH-DT, however KCNC-DT just seems to pixelate VERY bad, making Bronco games almost unwatchable. My fix for this is I have a splitter going from my antenna directly into my Sony TV with internal Digital tuner, which I do during Bronco games and the picture and sound are perfect (by Denver standards). The Sony also has a QAM tuner, and I have a comcast feed to view just "the so-called Denver Channel." However the KCNC doesn't show signal most of the time with my QAM tuner on 18.1. Should I try a FM filter on my OTA antenna? I know because KCNC-DT is such a high frequency it is causing this, but I was hoping the pixelation is caused from something else besides the crappy OTA-DT tuner e* decided to put in the 921. It would be nice to pause a game for loud kids/potty breaks etc.
If you have legitimate Comcast service (e.g., basic cable) vs. just an Internet connection, then you should be able to get 18.1. Do you get analog 17 (PAX) and 19 (religious)? If so, there is something strange going on. If you only have internet, they put some kind of filter on which blocks out some of the analog channels in the middle of the spectrum, but not the higher ones (like 89.1 which is KMGH-DT). In theory Comcast should help you, but in practice you might want to rent the HD box for a month ($5) and then they would provide a service call to make 654 work (which is what 18.1 maps to). Once it was working, you could drop the service and you would still have 18.1 on the QAM tuner.

sunshinedawg

11-21-05, 09:33 PM

Looking for advice/opinion. I have a large yagi on a rotor. I have been able to get Cheyenne and all but THE 1 Denver channels. In the past couple of weeks all I've been able to lock onto are the higher powered 2 and 31. Is it possible that there might be something related to temperature or ???. Any thoughts that might get me back on the air are appreciated. Thanks.

A while back there were some people having some unexplained interference on the east side of Longmont. Like the others have said, it is most likely on your end if you were always receiving these channels. I've had multiple problems and it has always wound up to be something wrong on my end. Recheck everything, even things you think are ok. I just had to replace my amp becasue it had gotten wet at the antenna. I tore everything apart and was pulling my hair out until I realized that was the one thing in equation I hadn't checked. Anybody got an address for scare so I can send them a $65 bill for my amp? The second one i've had to buy now. :mad:

santellavision

11-21-05, 10:26 PM

HT_Jake,
I live just on the other side of the hill in the Chimney Creek. I can get Republic, but you being on the other side, who knows? You just have to get on the roof with your antenna. I would recommend a yagi type and give 'er a go. Email me if you need assistance.

Frazee

11-22-05, 11:43 AM

Got out the binoculars and there were 3 cables running down the pole instead of the 2 that are supposed to be there. Climbed up (again) and found that the transformer broke off at the wingnuts on the antenna. Maybe too much flexing or the cable caught on something while rotating after several weeks of use. Getting 2 and 31 at 60% with only the cable as an antenna. Fixed it but still no signal so up the ladder yet again. Thanks.

gakon

11-22-05, 12:10 PM

CARE rebuttal in today's Rocky Mountain News:

News must try harder in next tower editorial

In its Nov. 13 editorial, "Waiting, waiting for a digital tower," the News fails to disclose its relationship through CBS 4 to the Lake Cedar Group.
This would possibly explain how the News accept LCG's statements without question. Knowing that two towers have previously failed on Lookout Mountain, the city of Golden questioned LCG's expert - they hired forensic structural engineers (experts who have investigated communication tower failures) to look at realistic scenarios and their testimony to Jefferson County was not in agreement with LCG's expert.
LCG's expert did not consider topography, geology, winter conditions, or other factors, and he concluded that tower parts from failure would be embedded in the soil. Lookout Mountain has lots of rock and what little soil there is is frozen rock hard in winter.
The LCG-proposed location is further east and on steeper slope than the existing CBS 4 tower, increasing the likelihood of tower failure, sending pieces rolling or sledding downhill.
Look at the Jeffco recorded testimony and read both parts before you decide to call the tower decision "bone-headed" and label it as "Jeffco's misbehavior." I think the Jefferson County commissioners acted properly to protect the public safety from a poorly presented tower plan, which did not consider nor disclose threats to the public safety through tower failure. To rewrite your last line, your editorial (with undisclosed self-interest) was "nothing less than shameful."
Try again. (Also, independent experts and Jeffco's own expert do not agree that the LCG's tower will result in "reduced exposures to radio-frequency emissions.")
(My disclosure: I have two degrees in electrical engineering from MIT.)

Gary R. Olhoeft
Golden

colofan

11-22-05, 12:28 PM

Written just as I expected from a person who has a disjointed logic path to explain the vote by Jeffco.

An electrical engineer (which I am as well as physics) stating something about civil engineering. Brilliant just Brilliant (insert beer ad :).

sunshinedawg

11-22-05, 01:04 PM

"(My disclosure: I have two degrees in electrical engineering from MIT.)" and 0 common sense.

Anybody having trouble with KRMA-DT? I'm not getting any sound.

Geof

11-22-05, 01:43 PM

As a EE myself I'd be ashamed to write that poorly thought out response and then try to justify it using the "I'm an engineer (with not one but two) MIT degrees" which is totally irrelevant because his degrees are not pertinent to the topic at hand.

CEB II

11-22-05, 01:51 PM

CARE rebuttal in today's Rocky Mountain News:

The disclosures I'd like to see from that author are, 1) how many dollars does he think his real estate on LOM will appreciate by if he can get rid of those darn towers, and 2) as an electrical engineer and skeptic of all of the valid RF radiation studies, was he one of those wearing an aluminum foil hat at the earlier hearings?

His disagreements w/ the structural expert testimony are a joke. The study didn't consider that LOM is mostly rock. Most structural designers give their eye teeth to get to bedrock quickly. It doesn't get any better than that for anchoring structures. The study didn't consider that there are winter freezing conditions on LOM. I'd like him to let us know when the rock thaws.

TotallyPreWired

11-22-05, 02:16 PM

The LCG-proposed location is further east and on steeper slope than the existing CBS 4 tower, increasing the likelihood of tower failure, sending pieces rolling or sledding downhill.
.
.
.
(My disclosure: I have two degrees in electrical engineering from MIT.)
You'd have thought that an MIT grad would've caught the fact that the 'plan' had a Runaway Tower Ramp clearly drawn and labeled on it. :p
....jc

bkleven

11-23-05, 12:58 AM

This wonderful little snippet of profound wisdom in 'The News' is yet another confirmation of a fascinating phenomenon that I have observed for nearly 10 years now.

MIT grads may be able to solve differential equations in their sleep, I'll grant you. However, such foreign topics as strong communication skills and common sense bring looks of profound consternation to their pallid faces.

And I got them there fancy words courtesy of my farmin' ma n pa and Oklahoma State U. I think I've done okey dokey with my EE degree - I'm sure not complaining. Certainly no regrets about not even considering MIT.

If I was that guy, I would seriously be embarassed at that tripe. It sure doesn't say much for MIT.

kucharsk

11-23-05, 02:34 AM

Anyone catch Gilmore Girls on KWGN tonight?

They reran the first segment of the show twice, then dropped into SD for a segment.

No idea if we lost one entire segment. :(

kucharsk

11-23-05, 02:36 AM

CEB II

11-23-05, 05:17 AM

Believe it or not, the sCARE flunky is a geophysics professor (http://www.mines.edu/~golhoeft/) at the Colorado School of Mines.

If I had kids there, I'd ask for my tuition money back.

Insert comment regarding tenure here…

How embarrassing this should be for him! Is he also the guy who thought that the falling tower might end up on one of Mine's campus buildings?

oxothuk

11-23-05, 09:38 AM

TMIT grads may be able to solve differential equations in their sleep, I'll grant you. However, such foreign topics as strong communication skills and common sense bring looks of profound consternation to their pallid faces.There's an old joke about a young-man who comes up to the express-line register in a Boston supermarket with over 25 items in his basket. The clerk looks him over quicky and then asks - "Did you go to Harvard, and can't COUNT, or did you go to MIT, and can't READ?"

dr_mal

11-23-05, 10:04 AM

Anyone catch Gilmore Girls on KWGN tonight?

They reran the first segment of the show twice, then dropped into SD for a segment.

No idea if we lost one entire segment. :(
I was wondering if we missed anything, too. The show seemed to flow well enough - back in the old days when dropped segments due to HD/SD switching issues were more common, it was obvious when a segment was missing. But it did end right on time, so who knows.

Good episode, though.

Symbios

11-23-05, 01:54 PM

I actually was able to receive KUSA for a brief period last night. I got to watch “My name is Earl” in HD for the first time, which was really nice. I’ve always wanted to see 9News in HD too, but of course, around 9:38 the picture started breaking up and by 10:00 I got a “No Signal” message. Oh well.

I wonder why KUSA came in from me last night? I’ve been watching HD for 2/12 years and I have never been able to see KUSA-DT. Maybe a KTVD engineer was working atop RP and his body acted as a better transmitter. If that’s the case, I need to find someone I can pay to stand up there from 7:00 to 11:30!

KWGN-TV

11-23-05, 02:30 PM

dr_mal

11-23-05, 03:38 PM

Apologies to all with our delivery of last night's episode of Gilmore Girls . There was an issue with preparation of the content to air and it caused the program to be skipped to the next segment inadvertantely. We had to upconvert for a brief period and hopefully it caused limited confusion.

In the immortal words of Don Knotts: "Sorry about that, chief" :D

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Dave Martinez
KWGN-TV
WB2 Colorado
2-1 HDTV
Were any segments skipped? It seemed odd that we saw the pre-credits sequence twice, but the show ended on time.

Thanks again for your presence here, and the work behind-the-scenes that makes these sorts of situations pretty rare.

roller11

11-23-05, 03:55 PM

I just watched the Monday night line up on NBC/KUSA from Nov.14 and Nov.21.
Just as I thought that NBC/KUSA was done with their constant screw ups of showing
HD progs in SD, the only prog of the six that was "clean" (entire episode in HD),
was nov.14 'Surface'. nov.14 Medium was part HD, part SD. 'Las Vegas' nov.14 was
entirely SD with a new wrinkle: It was in widescreen, but it was upconverted SD (i.e.
SD without the pillar bars)
nov.21 Surface and Las Vegas were both a mix of SD and HD with the typical
pillar bars during the SD portions.
After 7+ years of HD primetime, you'd think they would have worked out the bugs.

roller11

11-23-05, 05:16 PM

I watched the Nov 14th Las Vegas episode a couple of days ago. IIRC, it was all in HD (not upconverted SD). I have not yet watched the Nov 21st episodes of LV and Surface. I don't watch Medium.

It's understandable that you thought it was HD since it was formatted
like HD (16:9, aka 'widescreen').
It was in SD, but not the typical SD with pillar bars. i.e. it was DVD quality.
The difference isn't dramatic, but I noticed it immediately.

gakon

11-23-05, 05:23 PM

Before this deteriorates, you may want to check some other threads about the quality of LV and other NBC programming.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=603067
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=606586
There may be PQ problems/issues that don't necessarily mean that it's SD.

gakon

11-23-05, 06:41 PM

My source said Comcast coverage should come, but not until at least 60 days after they go live OTA. If you get the opportunity, please ask your source about the reasons for the delay. Comcast has not added any HD channels in a while. They carry TNT HD nationally, but not here in Denver, leading me to believe that there's a capacity problem, but more than one CSR has said that they're just working out contractual issues.

dr_mal

11-23-05, 06:50 PM

If you get the opportunity, please ask your source about the reasons for the delay. Comcast has not added any HD channels in a while. They carry TNT HD nationally, but not here in Denver, leading me to believe that there's a capacity problem, but more than one CSR has said that they're just working out contractual issues.
I'll ask, but I suspect I won't be able to get a good answer (you know, contract negotiations and such). My feeling from the conversation was that it's Comcast's standard operating policy to take 60 days to add any new channels. I'm sure KTVD would like carriage on Comcast as soon as possible after they go live.

I also noticed I had some other questions written down that I forgot to ask. Next time we speak, I'll try to remember.

roller11

11-23-05, 07:02 PM

:rolleyes: I find your response to be rather condescending. I don't agree with your comments but based on past experiences I know its pointless trying to discuss something like this with you so I'll not even try and will disengage in order to avoid thread deterioration and will simply ignore your posts in the future.

People other than me point out problems with local signals all the time.
Often, these reports lead to the stations fixing these problems, like
KCNC fixing the codec on their HD server this past summer when I raised public awareness of this serious defect.

If I came off as condescending in my post, I apologize.

gakon

11-23-05, 07:39 PM

Just as I thought that NBC/KUSA was done with their constant screw ups of showing HD progs in SD, the only prog of the six that was "clean" (entire episode in HD), was nov.14 'Surface'. nov.14 Medium was part HD, part SD. 'Las Vegas' nov.14 was entirely SD with a new wrinkle: It was in widescreen, but it was upconverted SD (i.e. SD without the pillar bars) nov.21 Surface and Las Vegas were both a mix of SD and HD with the typical pillar bars during the SD portions.
After 7+ years of HD primetime, you'd think they would have worked out the bugs.Going back to the original topic - although it's most likely that the switch to 4:3 SD during these shows is a local problem, you could always call or write KUSA to see if they'll share the reason (and then share it with us). I suspect that the LV PQ problem (16:9 but SD quality) is more of a national issue. I would think (but I could be wrong) that it would be very difficult for KUSA to take an HD feed (16:9) and downrez it to SD. I think it would be even less likely that they could take a 4:3 SD feed and stretch it to 16:9 without noticeable artifacts (and I'm sure you would have noticed that ;)). Also, you mentioned that the only one of the six Monday NBC HD shows was clean, but you didn't say what was wrong with Medium this week (I did not watch most of it - never saw the 3D parts).