Dr. Inow Sqat, PhD, MD, DDS, AC/DC ........

LMAO :)

Go the following I want OTA hdtv (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/) and participate. Get the word out to as many people as you can. This is great, but what concerns me just how people in the metro area know this web site even exists. Maybe the local broadcasters need to put fliers in the local newspapers along places the sell HDTV.
Also take time check out the various tabs.

I doubt that ESPN wants any competition for their HD broadcast. I think that it's great that KUSA got ESPN to allow them to show their analog broadcast, but I doubt that KUSA gets more than that. Now if KUSA were an ABC affiliate, I could see it happening.
....jcMark Cornetta's response: "We don't have the rights to the HD telecast. ESPN will not grant those rights. Thank you for the email."

As you stated...

Go the following I want OTA hdtv (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/) and participate. Get the word out to as many people as you can. This is great, but what concerns me just how people in the metro area know this web site even exists. Maybe the local broadcasters need to put fliers in the local newspapers along places the sell HDTV.
Also take time check out the various tabs.
Lawood,
I don't know if it'll do much good. :( The domain name was registered on 07/29/03. I don't know how long the site has been up, but a good guess is 'a while'. The site looks to be owned by a firm, Rockford Gray LLC, and they no doubt were hired by LCG.

If LCG really wanted to spread the word on HDTV in Denver, cough, cough, puke. I think that they have the resources to do it. Hell, I'm willing to bet that Ernie would be willing to donate or discount his services to create some commercials.
....jc

Is anyone watching Trading Spouses on KDVR? This appears to be in HD, but it's 4:3.

Hi, I did a search on this, but only found info from 2004.

I am looking for a good local ISF calibration. I have a Mits 65" that is a few years old. It is in the basement home theater and sees some temp swings which I think might get it out of calibration more quickly (my theory, not sure if that is accurate). I also have an older (6+ years and never calibrated it) Sony XBR 51" (non HDTV). Both seem to need calibration.

Anyone have some suggestions for normal costs and recommendations in the Denver area?

Thanks in advance.

Leonard - thanks. I hadn't been to hdtvcolorado.com since they added the stuff about Golden's eminent domain push. Glad to know it doesn't cover the existing tower sites, since that's likely to be where we get our full power HDTV from.

I don't know if it'll do much good. :( The domain name was registered on 07/29/03. I don't know how long the site has been up, but a good guess is 'a while'. The site looks to be owned by a firm, Rockford Gray LLC, and they no doubt were hired by LCG.
Yeah, Marv Rockford is LCG's main spokesman. He also used to be KCNC's GM.

If LCG really wanted to spread the word on HDTV in Denver, cough, cough, puke. I think that they have the resources to do it. Hell, I'm willing to bet that Ernie would be willing to donate or discount his services to create some commercials.
They story they've told us for the last several years was that they have to keep their business interests and their news departments properly segregated. I have noticed, at least on KUSA, more stories about LCG and HDTV lately, however. Any improvement is welcome in my books.

ListenUp does calibration for around $325 or so for a single input and something like $125 for each additional input; I'm not sure what other ISF calibrators in the area charge.

Go the following I want OTA hdtv (http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/) and participate. Get the word out to as many people as you can. This is great, but what concerns me just how people in the metro area know this web site even exists. Maybe the local broadcasters need to put fliers in the local newspapers along places the sell HDTV.
Also take time check out the various tabs.

Thanks for the link -

I just posted it in a Audi forum - and sent to most of my old co-workers in Fort Collins

Reggie

ListenUp does calibration for around $325 or so for a single input and something like $125 for each additional input; I'm not sure what other ISF calibrators in the area charge.

Thanks. I am looking for feedback on local ISF calibrators that people have actually used that are worth the money. If anyone can give feedback that would be great (general prices would be appreciated).

Thanks!

...the same expert from Xcel told the County Planning Department that the varied terrain on Lookout Mountain would prevent a series of towers falling over. The experts agree that Lookout Mountain and Golden are safe from marauding electrical transmission towers

To funny! :D

Hopefully it is also safe from ransacking RF, rapacious guy wires, and DTDs! (digitally transmitted diseases). ;)

I didn't see this posted anywhere yet. If it has, I apologize...

Gannett (owner of KUSA) buys KTVD
http://www.gannett.com/go/press/pr121505.htm

I didn't see this posted anywhere yet. If it has, I apologize...

Gannett (owner of KUSA) buys KTVD
http://www.gannett.com/go/press/pr121505.htm
Interesting. Thanks for posting that!

So.......what are the HD implications here, as far as Xmitter locations, Ch 20's HD rollout, etc. Does anybody know Gannett's track record, HD-wise?

Their track record? 4th station in the country to have local HD news. 1st station in the country to have a HD traffic copter. Last of the "big 3" networks to have a temporary transmitter up, but since they put it up, they've caught the HD bug bigtime. This was the 3rd year they've done the Parade of Lights in HD.

As to how it affects UPN20's HD rollout, I can only imagine that they've suddenly gained access to a ton of experience with the KUSA engineers.

As to how it affects UPN20's HD rollout, I can only imagine that they've suddenly gained access to a ton of experience with the KUSA engineers.

I would have to agree with you dr mal. This is shocking news, and I believe it will certainly have both long and short term implications regarding OTA-DT in Denver.

In the short term, I have to wonder if it may not once again set back the 'on-air' date of KTVD-DT. Since Gannett will obviously abandon KTVD's current facility in the suburbs and move them into KUSA's building, why build a 'link' between that station and RP, when it will just have to be dismantled and replaced by one between RP and KUSA's facility in Denver? And if they did soon get on-air, would they not have to go back off the air for this 'moving' process to be completed? Sadly I think this may move KTVD-DT's on-air date back.

Nevertheless, in the long term, I believe there is a lot of good that can come from this. Obviously with Gannett (KUSA) now owning KTVD, I think there will be a good chance of additional local HD content appearing on KTVD, and I'm now very confident that UPN network programming will be 'passed through' in HD. And as dr. mal stated above, with the KUSA Engineers having 'been there, done that' already, I would have to believe that once the FCC Ownership hurdles are cleared, KTVD will be running like a well oiled (albeit low-powered) machine from RP. Sadly, the only bad thing I see in the long term is the fact that Gannett (KUSA) also likes subchannels...so I'd have to believe once it's on the air a "20-2" would not be far behind....oh well, gotta take the good with the bad I guess.

Finally, what impact does this have on LCG? Now that 2 of the 4 stations will be owned by Gannett, how do the dynamics change? Does Gannett abandon LCG? Regardless, I can't imagine the Engineers at the soon to be KUSA/KTVD want their permanent digital towers (if we ever get to that point) in two different spots, which is currently the case in the Analog world (Lookout-9, Morrison-20)...how does that play out?

Suffice it to say, this is a fascinating turn of events. I can't wait to read subsequent posts! :)

UHF,

I have to disagree with you. In the other market that Gannett owns two stations, they have kept them seperate and not tried to combine the two (facilities, staff etc) I would agree that they would share expertise on HD though. I really don't think this will have much impact on LCG. Just my 2¢.

[EDIT] I just read an article in the Post out the buy. They might combine some staff."Once the deal closes, they will assume full control of all the advertising sales, programming, everything. I don't know what their plans are."

In the short term, I have to wonder if it may not once again set back the 'on-air' date of KTVD-DT. Since Gannett will obviously abandon KTVD's current facility in the suburbs and move them into KUSA's building, ...I don't think that's so obvious. KTVD is still UPN and KUSA is still NBC. We are only talking corp ownership here -- I don't anything changes in the short term. I still expect (read HOPE) KTVD-DT will be on-air by 12/31 (2005, that is ;) )

UHF,

I have to disagree with you. In the other market that Gannett owns two stations, they have kept them seperate and not tried to combine the two (facilities, staff etc)
[EDIT] I just read an article in the Post out the buy. They might combine some staff.

Santellavision,

The article in the Rocky is even more specific than the one in the Post. It says that KTVD WILL move from its facilities in Centennial to KUSA's on Speer Blvd. in Denver. What is still an unknown is how many of KTVD's 45 current employees will be retained and moved to their new home on Speer Blvd with KUSA.

I was not aware that in Jacksonville (the other market) Gannett has kept the two stations fairly seperate. That's very interesting...thanks for the info.

I go to Jacksonville quite often on business. The two Gannett stations are WJXX and WTLV. They are the ABC and NBC affiliates. I believe their facilities are at the same address. They broadcast the same newscast at 11:00 each evening and they share the same website - www.firstcoastnews.com. So, based on that, I'd say there's going to be some consolidation of KUSA and KTVD.

I think it's a sad statement of trends happening in our country. Way too much consolidation. One company owning 4-5 radio stations in one city, both newspapers etc. It's all becoming one big Walmart of broadcasting. I really think it was a big mistake for the FCC to change to multiple ownership rule.

Wasn't the FCC. Congress ordered it.

Wasn't the FCC. Congress ordered it.Even worse.

Hey guys, I need some help. My Dish Pro Plus Twin LNB died yesterday. I can't get a service call until Sunday.

Are there any local dealers that sell them so I can install it for the Broncos game tonight?

Thanks,
Jason

So what am I missing? I thought if I bought an HDTV I'd get to watch the Broncos play in HD...not so, I guess. :mad: Glad I didn't invite those that haven't seen HD over...again.

Tim

So what am I missing?Not much, the way the Broncos are playing. There's always "The Sound of Music". ;)

So what am I missing? I thought if I bought an HDTV I'd get to watch the Broncos play in HDESPN-HD! It looks really nice, especially if you have a native 720p projector!

ESPN-HD! It looks really nice, especially if you have a native 720p projector!

...or a 720p DLP! The game PQ was stellar, as usual, on ESPN-HD from E*. Too bad the game itself was so frustrating.

i'm in boulder off table mesa and the 36 on the SE side of town. i'm curious what sort of reception i might expect to believe? i only have an appartment so i can't do anything on the roof. i have a patio but i'm on the bottom floor of a two-storry apt building. should i just give up considering OTA? otherwise i'll just keep my comcast; i imagine i can't really replace it.

i'm in boulder off table mesa and the 36 on the SE side of town. i'm curious what sort of reception i might expect to believe? i only have an appartment so i can't do anything on the roof. i have a patio but i'm on the bottom floor of a two-storry apt building. should i just give up considering OTA? otherwise i'll just keep my comcast; i imagine i can't really replace it.

You're severely shadowed by Davidson Mesa in that location, so I doubt you'd be able to pick up any of the stations from Republic Plaza, and even the higher-powered Lookout stations could be a challenge. Unfortunately you're probably stuck with Comcast for the time being.

Gakon,

Would it be possible to run a profile from N40 deg,2'47" W105deg,3'45" to RP? Thanks,

ESPN-HD! It looks really nice, especially if you have a native 720p projector!

I guess I'm just too new and don't know what to expect...I have a Sammy 6163DLP, C-band dish and OTA Sammy SIR T451 and the terk indoor beam with line of site to RP and Lookout. I don't have E* or D* nor Comcast, I don't get ESPN-HD...I thought the local channels would carry the games in HD as they advertise HD (especially channel 9, the Leader in HD!). Turns out that channel 4 carries only 3 games per weekend in HD and this week channel 9 was trumped by ESPN.

Does this mean that any time ESPN has the game only you rich guys ( :rolleyes: j/k) with D* or E* or Comcast will be able to watch it in Hi def? This is pretty frustrating! I've got some friends that I'd like to introduce to Hi Def by having them over for a Broncos game and I have no clue when (or even if) we're gonna be able to get it in HD! Can someone help me out and let me know where I can go to learn about how HD is carried by the locals?

Thanks for letting me rant!

Tim

...Turns out that channel 4 carries only 3 games per weekend in HD and this week channel 9 was trumped by ESPN.
Actually CBS on a national level only broadcasts about 3 games per Sunday in HD.
Does this mean that any time ESPN has the game only you rich guys ( :rolleyes: j/k) with D* or E* or Comcast will be able to watch it in Hi def?
To get more than just the major networks in HD, you're going to have to get Cable or Satellite! :(
This is pretty frustrating! I've got some friends that I'd like to introduce to Hi Def by having them over for a Broncos game and I have no clue when (or even if) we're gonna be able to get it in HD! Can someone help me out and let me know where I can go to learn about how HD is carried by the locals?
There is usually a thread in the HDTV Programming area that notes each weekend's HD sports. Also, you can check out the HD Sports Guide. (http://www.hdsportsguide.com/)
....jc

I've got some friends that I'd like to introduce to Hi Def by having them over for a Broncos game and I have no clue when (or even if) we're gonna be able to get it in HD! Can someone help me out and let me know where I can go to learn about how HD is carried by the locals? This Saturday's home game should be in HD on KCNC-DT (CBS ch 4.1 OTA). KCNC's website (http://cbs4denver.com/programming) has it showing as HD even though TitanTV (http://ww2.titantv.com/TTV/Grid/Grid.aspx) has it as SD. The next Saturday game (12/31), which is the last regular season game, is on CBS and is probably HD also.

Don't know if this is news or not, but it seems to be an update at the least:

WASHINGTON, Dec 19 (Reuters) - The U.S. House of Representatives on Monday approved legislation to complete the country's transition to new, higher-quality digital television by Feb. 17, 2009.

Under a deal negotiated by Republicans in the Senate and House, a $1.5 billion fund would be created to help some consumers buy converter boxes so existing analog television signals do not go dark when the transition is finished.

The compromise is part of a larger bill aimed at cutting government spending over the next five years, which was narrowly approved by the House and still must be passed by the Senate.

The Senate previously had approved a $3 billion fund and set the date as April 7, 2009 for when television stations must end analog broadcasts and only air their digital signals.

The House originally backed a $990 million fund and Dec. 31, 2008 as the date.

Congress is eager for broadcasters to give up the analog airwaves, some of which will be auctioned for commercial wireless service, a sale that could bring in billions of dollars which could plug the government budget deficit.

Some of the airwaves would be given to public safety organizations, like police, fire and rescue workers who have had trouble communicating during major crises such as the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks and Hurricane Katrina.

Current law requires stations to switch to airing only digital broadcasts when 85 percent of the country can receive the new signals, or by Dec. 31, 2006, whichever comes later. Experts have said that could take a long time, prompting lawmakers to seek a more certain date.

Broadcasters estimate there are 73 million television sets in American homes not hooked up to cable or satellite services and that rely on over-the-air broadcasts and could go dark. Boxes that would convert digital back into analog could cost roughly $50, according to industry estimates.

Timay,

If you'll go back and read some earlier posts, you'll find that KUSA was contacted regarding Saturday's Bronco's game. Apparently, ESPN would not give them the HD feed, only the SD feed.

Would it be possible to run a profile from N40 deg,2'47" W105deg,3'45" to RP?Profile is attached. There are two ridges in your way, one NW of 144th and Lowell, the other in Thornton south of 104th. Since bikenski is close to your line of sight, and he had trouble with reception from RP, I suspect that you might have similar difficulties. You're further northwest, so you may be able to get better reception over the top of the ridges, but that distance also increases the signal attenuation.

Does this mean that any time ESPN has the game only you rich guys ( :rolleyes: j/k) with D* or E* or Comcast will be able to watch it in Hi def? This is pretty frustrating! I've got some friends that I'd like to introduce to Hi Def by having them over for a Broncos game and I have no clue when (or even if) we're gonna be able to get it in HD! Can someone help me out and let me know where I can go to learn about how HD is carried by the locals?

Tim

Better get used to more NFL HD being on ESPN. Next year MNF moves to ESPN. I think we are only about 5 years away from having NFL playoff games and perhaps the SB on a pay-per-view basis only.

The Broncos-Raiders game will be on CBS (DTV 4-1) in HD. It was flagged as an HD game at the end of the post-game show on Sunday. Given the playoff implications, I suspect the CBS will also provide the Broncos-Chargers game in HD the following weekend.

Den/Oak - HD. CBS already flagged it (like CEB said).
Den/SD - HD. It's on Saturday, and unlike next week when almost everybody plays on Saturday, that means it's CBS's only game and therefore nationally televised. That always equates to HD.
All playoff games - HD. The Super Bowl is looming KMGH. Do you know where your OTA solution is?

Touche' Ernie.....Nice rebuttal to Mr. Hislop.

Letter to editor (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/letters/article/0,2777,DRMN_23966_4328102,00.html)

how do I get my lat / long to run a "profile"?

I think it's a sad statement of trends happening in our country. Way too much consolidation. One company owning 4-5 radio stations in one city, both newspapers etc. It's all becoming one big Walmart of broadcasting. I really think it was a big mistake for the FCC to change to multiple ownership rule.

I totally agree with you. We need some serios regulation on this sort of thing. In this case I beleive it is reverse regulation because their was already rules on the books about conglomeration in the media industry. Michael Powel was in the wrong on this one.

What's worse is many of these big conglomerates are owned by folks in the conservative camp. The last time I tried to watch Fox, their spin on the daily news made my chair topple over to the right! Fair & balanced? Maybe if you are a Neo-Con. :0

What's worse is many of these big conglomerates are owned by folks in the conservative camp. The last time I tried to watch Fox, their spin on the daily news made my chair topple over to the right! Fair & balanced? Maybe if you are a Neo-Con. :0

If you look at the number of right, or even center, leaning television news outlets, compared to the number of left leaning television news outlets, I think you're being well served. ;)

Thanks for the info on the upcoming games and HD...and thanks for letting me spew the other day! I do have HD programming via my C-band dish and OTA, I even get KMGH, the 'invisible' one! I'll probably see if we can get the couple over for the SD game, and of course, if the Broncos make the super bowl, we'll have to have a party and invite everybody over!

I also liked Ernie's letter to the editor!

Tim

Was it just me or was the PQ from KCNC-DT (4-1) via OTA better than usual last night? I noticed what seemed to be a sharper, better-defined picture for "How I Met Your Mother", "Two and a Half Men", "Out of Practice" and "CSI: Miami" than has recently been the case.

I just now spot checked my OTA recording. "King of Queens" and "2.5 Men"
looked as grainy/bad as always, and "Mother" and "Practice" looked as fabulously wonderful, as always.

While on the PQ subject, Comcast is only just now making ABC available in Longmont,
so I have little history with Comcast and ABC affiliate KMGH.
But I've noticed
there is a green/red stripe on the left/right side of faces on all primetime
programs, like color misconvergence. Very irritating, and the other networks
don't have this affliction. Is this ABC HD artifact on OTA , or is it only on
Comcast cable?

While on the PQ subject, Comcast is only just now making ABC available in Longmont,
so I have little history with Comcast and ABC affiliate KMGH.
But I've noticed
there is a green/red stripe on the left/right side of faces on all primetime
programs, like color misconvergence. Very irritating, and the other networks
don't have this affliction. Is this ABC HD artifact on OTA , or is it only on
Comcast cable?


Must be a longmont thing with Comcast & ABC. OTA & Comcast here are the same. No problems.

how do I get my lat / long to run a "profile"?Type in your address at the site below, and it will give you coordinates. I will not have access to my TOPO program for another week, so if no one else runs a profile, you may have to re-post your request.
http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/convert?form=address

What's worse is many of these big conglomerates are owned by folks in the conservative camp. The last time I tried to watch Fox, their spin on the daily news made my chair topple over to the right! Fair & balanced? Maybe if you are a Neo-Con. :0Fox News, conservative? Perhaps just not hard left for once, unlike ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NPR…

Fox News, conservative? Perhaps just not hard left for once, unlike ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NPR…

Folks, let's not go here again. It is human nature to compress your view of the world toward the center and to push everything that doesn't match your views to the extreme.

Thus to a Pat Robertson supporter, Billy Graham is a liberal and a centrist Republican like McCain is an extremist pinkie commie, just like Kennedy. Looked at from the other way, a Kennedy supporter views a Senator Feingold or Salazar as a conservative and a McCain as an extreme conservative.

We need to learn to disagree without villifying the other guy.

k, I got my lat long

W 40.4384780 -104.7298740

Profile to RP or Lookout or both? anyone?

I am up in Greeley and just wonder if its worth my time to try for other stations.

I am up in Greeley and just wonder if its worth my time to try for other stations.
Absolutely! For starters try Fox in Fort Collins(31?) & CBS(5) in Cheyenne!
....jc

Absolutely! For starters try Fox in Fort Collins(31?) & CBS(5) in Cheyenne!
....jc

yep I get those two. However I wonder if WGN (lookout) and 9 (rp) are even thinkable. On the south side of greeley I think so, but Im on the north so I don't know.

I get both KWGN and FOX as well as I usually get KUSA I am in south Loveland.

I get both KWGN and FOX as well as I usually get KUSA I am in south Loveland.

hmmm so it might be possible. Is KWGN digital channel 2? or something else? and what about KUSA?

Thanks

KWGN-HD broadcasts on UHF channel 34 with PSIP mapping to channel 2-1. Our transmitter site is located at Lookout Mountain with an ERP of 450,000 watts.


Dave Martinez
Engineering Maintenance Supervisor
KWGN-TV/ WB2 Colorado

KWGN-HD broadcasts on UHF channel 34 with PSIP mapping to channel 2-1. Our transmitter site is located at Lookout Mountain with an ERP of 450,000 watts.
Dave,
KWGN is probably broadcasting with more power than most other digital stations, yet it'a almost impossible to receive near Woodland Park. KDVR has about 1/2 the power, but it's easier to receive than KWGN. Also, you have a much more favorable radiation(think tiny snowballs) pattern than KDVR. Do you have any ideas as to why it's so difficult to receive KWGN out here?

Thanks,
....jc

Do you have any ideas as to why it's so difficult to receive KWGN out here?My guess is that it's the directionality of their antenna. To keep the RF levels lower on Lookout, they might be sending less toward the south. I'm less than 5 miles away, but south west of them and can't even get a whiff of their signal.

My guess is that it's the directionality of their antenna. To keep the RF levels lower on Lookout, they might be sending less toward the south. I'm less than 5 miles away, but south west of them and can't even get a whiff of their signal.
I guess that's my point. Their polar plot is here. (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=44012&rotate=0.00&p0=0.940&p10=0.987&p20=1.000&p30=0.988&p40=0.963&p50=0.936&p60=0.917&p70=0.905&p80=0.900&p90=0.899&p100=0.900&p110=0.905&p120=0.917&p130=0.936&p140=0.963&p150=0.988&p160=1.000&p170=0.987&p180=0.940&p190=0.854&p200=0.733&p210=0.588&p220=0.437&p230=0.302&p240=0.218&p250=0.207&p260=0.232&p270=0.245&p280=0.232&p290=0.207&p300=0.218&p310=0.302&p320=0.437&p330=0.588&p340=0.733&p350=0.854&p360=0.940&) And, my azimuth into it is 171° 48'. And looking at it, I should be at about 97%.

Now, KDVR's polar plot is here. (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=17496&rotate=0.00&p0=0.208&p10=0.353&p20=0.561&p30=0.711&p40=0.876&p50=1.000&p60=0.854&p70=0.790&p80=0.854&p90=0.803&p100=0.800&p110=0.711&p120=0.772&p130=0.738&p140=0.739&p150=0.629&p160=0.548&p170=0.453&p180=0.350&p190=0.291&p200=0.222&p210=0.157&p220=0.116&p230=0.092&p240=0.064&p250=0.059&p260=0.126&p270=0.177&p280=0.202&p290=0.144&p300=0.061&p310=0.046&p320=0.092&p330=0.179&p340=0.187&p350=0.191&p360=0.208&) And, as you can see, it's much worse for my location.
....jc

Need to set up a OTA antenna. Would appreciate a profile for:

type latitude longitude

W 40.0347390 -105.0767910

Thanks.

jfh3 - if no one else provides a profile by next Wednesday, post another request or send me an email. I won't have access to my program until then.

Hi!!! I recently brought a Philips LCD TV ( model 32PF7320A/37). It has a built in QAM tuner and is HDTV. I live in Broomfield area. I was able to tune to WGN (2.1), PBS (12.1, 12.2, 12.3) and Fox (31.1) just using an indoor anternna (RCA ANT300). It is not a HDTV antenna. But all of a sudden I am not able to tune to any of those channels and I've no idea what happened.

Any thoughts?

Those stations are broadcasting from Lookout Mtn so make sure that your antenna is pointed in that direction. As Ernie always says, a few inches can make a difference.
If you read through much of the thread, you will see that the best advice is to mount an antenna on your roof for best Ota reception results. The rest of the Denver local stations are, or will be soon, broadcasting from the Republic Tower downtown. I would think that you could receive 9.1, 6.1 and maybe 4.1 from your location and with proper antenna pointing. Channel 7(ABC) and UPN 20 are rumored to be moving to the Republic Tower very soon. Good Luck!

I am considering getting either the TOSHIBA - 72MX195 72-IN 1080p HD DLP Projection TV or the SONY 70" XBR® Grand WEGA™ 3LCD Rear Projection HDTV
KDF-70XBR950.
If you own or seen either of the above, please help me with your opinion.
Thanks Fellas

It is not a HDTV antenna.
Rgedela,
There is no such thing as an HDTV antenna! You will read hype about HD antennas, but it's hype. All you need is a VHF and/or UHF antenna. For Denver right now everything is in the UHF band, so a decent UHF antenna(CM 4228) will do the job for the next 3 years. You can paint it Green & Red for the Christmas season, and hang it on a wall! :p Outdoors is always best though!
....jc

Article in the RMN (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4336802,00.html)

Article in the Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_3335978)

Is there anyone on this forum that doubts that there is a collusive effort underway between the City of Golden and sCARE? Anybody?

If we ever want to see full power digital TV, the LCG better grow a pair, and fast. If they really want to build a new tower they have the means to state their case. Yet, they remain silent.
....jc

Golden sucks. I'm embarrassed to work in the city. Fortunately there are plenty of restaurants in the city of Lakewood close enough to go to for lunch everyday.

I never was really serious about the "Boycott Golden" effort, but really, with cr*p like this going on I have lately made a conscious effort to not even buy gas, let alone anything else, in that city.

Pity too, as Foss General Store is pretty neat.

It is pretty embarassing...I graduated from Golden High, dated a girl that lived up on Lookout, got blasted at Sam's, marvelled at the big ol' tower standing on one little piece of glass, drove up and down Lariat Trail in all kinds of weather, made out overlooking Denver , watched from home as people would come down Lariat Trail after a New Years eve smash and go over the edge, worked at Foss Drug store, worked at Coors...I love(d) Golden...now I'm a bit embarrassed to admit I lived there... :o

Tim...from Centennial

I am considering getting either the TOSHIBA - 72MX195 72-IN 1080p HD DLP Projection TV or the SONY 70" XBR® Grand WEGA™ 3LCD Rear Projection HDTV
KDF-70XBR950.
If you own or seen either of the above, please help me with your opinion.
Thanks Fellas
The Toshiba - 1080p is better.

The 70" sony does 720p. You should compare the picture of the 60" SXRD 1080p- which is what I would recommend - or the 70 Qualia (though that is $10K)

Reggie

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post here but I've lurked for long time. I need an antennal recommendation or advice.

I'm located on the 9th floor of a 20-story highrise condo near Wash Park. My unit faces slightly west of due South with unobstructed horizon from approximately Mt. Evans on the West to Buckley AFB on the East. Behind me, generally to the North (towards downtown) is the rest of my building plus three others. I am currently using a Silver Sensor. I can get 2, 4, 31 and just occasionally 9. I am an ex-directv sub (no way I'm putting the new mpeg4 antenna on my balcony) so I have a spare coax (rg6) run. Before, my thinking was to tough it out until the new tower and full power. It now looks if that will be years (maybe if ever). I am aware of my rights re the HOA but in deference to my neighbors and my own asthetics I would like it small and wall mountable.

Any ideas on whether I could improve my position at least get 9 solidly, 7 and 6? I know I'm asking mostly for informed speculation and I welcome that. I have seen a couple of Terk units (one bar shaped and the other a rectangle) that would meet the requirements but from my previous experience with Terk products and other opinions everywhere, I'm reluctant to mess with these. All ideas would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Jeff

Any ideas on whether I could improve my position at least get 9 solidly, 7 and 6? I know I'm asking mostly for informed speculation and I welcome that. I have seen a couple of Terk units (one bar shaped and the other a rectangle) that would meet the requirements but from my previous experience with Terk products and other opinions everywhere, I'm reluctant to mess with these. All ideas would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Jeff

Welcome. I don't think there is going to be a good answer for some time, and at this point I wouldn't be surprised if Republic Plaza isn't the answer until 2009. Once Analog is shut down, the broadcasters can potentialy reuse the old towers (maybe)

I believe a little patience is the best answer. I expect DISH to come through with Denver HD locals in the Feb-April timeframe. Take a look at the Dish 1000 antenna. It isn't noticably larger than the older Dish 500, so it would be about the smae size as your old DTV dish.

I hadn't heard that Dish is close to offering Denver HD locals. That would be good news for the Dish folks.

DirecTv has begun offering a few cities' locals in HD (they started with Detroit) and Denver should be the first part of '06.

jayn_j,
What about a Channelmaster 3021. It's flat and could be mounted flat, against a wall surface instead of a pole. If you don't have the pole, it's pretty transparent.

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3021_4221.jpg

jayn_j,
What about a Channelmaster 3021. It's flat and could be mounted flat, against a wall surface instead of a pole. If you don't have the pole, it's pretty transparent.

http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3021_4221.jpg
What's interesting here, is that this pic(from Channel Master) has the 'screen' in reverse to what the 'screen' is on the printed directions. :confused:

The printed directions show the screen's edges curve toward the transmitter. :eek:
....jc

I am receiving channel 7.1 and the glorious 7.2 now (how was I able to live without 7.2? I'll never know but it is the best thing anyone has ever done in all history next to 9.2). I have changed nothing. Does that mean they have the Republican tower up and running or whatever it is? It comes in great, though I have yet to tune in when an actual HDTV program is on. I'd rather watch it in SD on 7.2 anyway just to show love and support for 7.2. I wish they could squeeze more SD channels in with the HD, that would be fantastic! Give the HD stream maybe 1mbps, and the rest for SD!

I am receiving channel 7.1 and the glorious 7.2 now (how was I able to live without 7.2? I'll never know but it is the best thing anyone has ever done in all history next to 9.2). I have changed nothing. Does that mean they have the Republican tower up and running or whatever it is?

I don't think KMGH has changed their antenna. It's still the only major broadcast channel that I can't receive and I live in the capitol hill neighborhood, less than a mile away from their offices at 6th and Speer.

Enjoy watching Lost in HD!

I am receiving channel 7.1 and the glorious 7.2 now (how was I able to live without 7.2? I'll never know but it is the best thing anyone has ever done in all history next to 9.2).
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
I'd rather watch it in SD on 7.2 anyway just to show love and support for 7.2. I wish they could squeeze more SD channels in with the HD, that would be fantastic! Give the HD stream maybe 1mbps, and the rest for SD!
Looks like 'ol Joe is hitting the 'Holiday Spirit' a bit early today.

Hopefully the dripping sound was sarcasm and not a hole in his bottle! :eek:
....jc

Hello All,

Santa(my wife) hooked me up with an DTV HD receiver. I want to install an OTA antennna but I'm not sure how much luck I would have. I live in a multi story building on 11th and Speer(south facing) on the 1st floor. I'd prefer and indoor antenna and I'm curious which stations I'll have the most and least success with for OTA reception? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

cpipes,
With so many relections of the downtown buildings all around you, I don't think anybody can answer that for you. You will have to try and experiment. My suggestion is to try a silver sensor indoor antenna. Or as mentioned above a Channelmaster flat antenna would give you abeter shot.

I am happy to report that with the help of so many here, I now have success from
Superior getting channels 2, 4, 6, 9, 31 and 53 (woo-hoo!). I started out a couple of months ago knowing nothing about OTA and have now installed a DB4 in my attic with a CM 7775 pre-amp. The pre-amp made the difference as without it I was only getting 2 and 31 and very weak signals for RP stations. I can now watch the Broncos' march to the Super Bowl on CBS-HD and hope channel 7 makes the move by SB XL 0n Feb 5! Thanks again to all!

cpipes,
With so many relections of the downtown buildings all around you, I don't think anybody can answer that for you. You will have to try and experiment. My suggestion is to try a silver sensor indoor antenna. Or as mentioned above a Channelmaster flat antenna would give you abeter shot.


Is the silver sensor from Zenith the same as the Terk indoor amplified? Basically has that style of antenna been copied by other manufacturers and is the technology and functionality the same? Also living downtown I'm assuming an amplified is the right way to go correct?

Is the silver sensor from Zenith the same as the Terk indoor amplified? Basically has that style of antenna been copied by other manufacturers and is the technology and functionality the same? Also living downtown I'm assuming an amplified is the right way to go correct?

Cpipes,

I use a Zenith Silver Sensor at my location near 1st & Logan, and have excellent results. Although it looks very similar to the Terk model you're referring to, I believe you would have much better RESULTS with the Zenith. I purchased mine at Sears in April, and the last time I was at a Sears about a month ago, they did still stock them.

The only thing that might work against you with this antenna is your location, since from 11th & Speer, Lookout & Squaw are obviously to the West, KMGH is down Cherry Creek to the SE and Republic Plaza is NNE from you. The Silver Sensor is a fairly DIRECTIONAL antenna, so perhaps something more 'omni-directional' might suit your needs. I'm not sure what would be a good indoor antenna in that category...perhaps someone else can help you with that.

As far as an amplifier, I don't use one, and if I remember what I've read here, for those of us in the 'city' (lots of high rises around) amplifiers can be a much bigger detriment than an asset.

Hope this was helpful, and Good Luck!

Hello Everyone,
I need an antennal recommendation or advice.

I'm located on the 9th floor of a 20-story highrise condo near Wash Park. My unit faces slightly west of due South with unobstructed horizon from approximately Mt. Evans on the West to Buckley AFB on the East. I am currently using a Silver Sensor. I can get 2, 4, 31 and just occasionally 9.

Any ideas on whether I could improve my position at least get 9 solidly, 7 and 6? I know I'm asking mostly for informed speculation and I welcome that.
Jeff

Jeffcmcc,

As shown in my previous post, I probably live a few blocks (or at most a mile or so) North and West of your location. I only live on the 2nd Floor, but can receive ALL of the Denver digital stations consistently (with the exception of KWHD 53 [46], which I have no interest in anyway, and is in the exact opposite direction of the way my antenna is pointed). To get to this point took hours of time positioning my Silver Sensor, but the results are worth it.

I guess all I'm saying is on the 9th floor living SE of Downtown, I would definitely experiment position-wise/angle-wise/elevation-wise for a while longer with what you have. The most powerful signal I receive is KUSA (9), which is the only signal I receive that registers at the maximum signal strength on my receiver, so I HAVE to believe you could at least lock that in from an antenna re-orientation.

Good Luck to you as well!

Jeffcmcc,

As shown in my previous post, I probably live a few blocks (or at most a mile or so) North and West of your location. I only live on the 2nd Floor, but can receive ALL of the Denver digital stations consistently (with the exception of KWHD 53 [46], which I have no interest in anyway, and is in the exact opposite direction of the way my antenna is pointed). To get to this point took hours of time positioning my Silver Sensor, but the results are worth it.

I guess all I'm saying is on the 9th floor living SE of Downtown, I would definitely experiment position-wise/angle-wise/elevation-wise for a while longer with what you have. The most powerful signal I receive is KUSA (9), which is the only signal I receive that registers at the maximum signal strength on my receiver, so I HAVE to believe you could at least lock that in from an antenna re-orientation.

Good Luck to you as well! Hi, and thanks. I too have spent hours tweaking the location, elevation, direction, etc of the silver sensor and I'm convinced now its doing the best it can (2, 4, 31, and 9 on a good day. Also get a solid lock on KWHD. I think whats working against me is the absolute mass of concrete and steel behind me (the 3 buildings between me and the RP stations). But now that I have the spare coax run I'm going to fool around with some stuff and see what happens. But as a ham radio guy and having experimented with a bunch of ham antennas in this location I have come to the conclusion that when it comes to the laws governing electromagnetic radio waves you really can't fool mother nature, so my hopes aren't too high. Thanks again.

Hi, and thanks. I too have spent hours tweaking the location, elevation, direction, etc of the silver sensor and I'm convinced now its doing the best it can (2, 4, 31, and 9 on a good day. Also get a solid lock on KWHD. I think whats working against me is the absolute mass of concrete and steel behind me (the 3 buildings between me and the RP stations). But now that I have the spare coax run I'm going to fool around with some stuff and see what happens.

Jeffcmcc,

That's unfortunate, but I hear ya. I have a friend that lives Uptown, and he has a really rough time getting the RP stations because the 50+ story 'Cash Register Building' casts a brutal 'shadow' over Uptown from the 50+ story RP. Damn you concrete and steel! :rolleyes:

Enjoy watching Lost in HD!
No thanks. I don't really watch a bunch of TV, and all of the screenshots I've seen of Lost look like "Survivor: The Drama" or something. Not interested. But when I do watch TV, it had better be HD! I am still perplexed on how I can pick up KMGH now. I don't even have to grab onto my antenna, cover myself in aluminum foil and spread my arms and legs in the air to get it anymore. I can actually walk around the room freely and it won't cut out.

Maybe I only get it when the wind blows or something. I know that when the wind blows, KUSA goes away.

I hadn't heard that Dish is close to offering Denver HD locals. That would be good news for the Dish folks.

DirecTv has begun offering a few cities' locals in HD (they started with Detroit) and Denver should be the first part of '06.Personally, between D*, E* and Comcast, I've never understood why people would want to pay for HD locals, especially as they will be recompressed and will end up looking worse than what people in every other major market in the country can get for free off the air.

Note this is decidedly different from analog, where cable or satellite reception of locals would get you a better picture; instead you will end up paying $5-$12/month for a poorer picture. :(

If everyone paying for HD locals in the Denver area would flame the LCG stations, JeffCo and the City of Golden, perhaps we wouldn't still be in the situation we are. :mad:

High all, I'm waiting for my new JVC 1080P Pro TV to arive, I've have a simple OTA setup question.
This TV has 2 RF inputs, 1 is labled ufh/vfh the other is ATSC/digital. I have basic Comcast with no STB, and a DB4 OTA, which connection goes where.
does the DB4 connect to the ATSC jack and my cable to the ufh/vfh?

Thanks

acex2,

Anyone, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong. Your TV probably has a QAM tuner, which means you should be able to get the HD locals with your basic Comcast connected to the ATSC/digital input, eliminating the need for the DB4.

You are correct, if it has a QAM tuner. However, my sir-t460 would decode all of them except channel 4. Don't know why that is, so I got an antenna and watch over the air.

Tim

Personally, between D*, E* and Comcast, I've never understood why people would want to pay for HD locals, especially as they will be recompressed and will end up looking worse than what people in every other major market in the country can get for free off the air.Please don't post info like this as fact. There's no proof of this yet. And, in fact, it's more likely the opposite! First, Dish has WCBS in HD from LA and it looks excellent. Second, I can get KGWN (CBS-HD from Wyoming) and it sounds like crap.

Please don't post info like this as fact. There's no proof of this yet. And, in fact, it's more likely the opposite! First, Dish has WCBS in HD from LA and it looks excellent. Second, I can get KGWN (CBS-HD from Wyoming) and it sounds like crap.

I don't have any reason to expect E* to provide HD locals at equal or better quality than what is available OTA (assuming one can receive them OTA). Dish has lately been screwing around with their HD Pak stations in an effort to gain some band width. As a result, their HD Pak channels now suffer frequent freezes and DD 5.1 sound drop outs. I fear this is just a sample of what is to come.

Personally, between D*, E* and Comcast, I've never understood why people would want to pay for HD locals, especially as they will be recompressed and will end up looking worse than what people in every other major market in the country can get for free off the air.

It's not like we have any choice around here. I moved from D* to Comcast two weeks ago, and I'm very impressed with the HD locals quality. They certainly don't seem "recompressed," and there's are many fewer artifacts than I experienced with D* HD.

I don't have any reason to expect E* to provide HD locals at equal or better quality than what is available OTA (assuming one can receive them OTA).
Same goes for D*. However, if they don't then, they lose to OTA and Cable. D* has too much money riding on HD to screw it up.

As far as paying for it: Yea you hate to, but what choices do you have. How many bowl games are on local HD stations this week? I haven't seen a game that hasn't been on ESPN. And, next year, MNF, again ESPN. If you are a football fan, paying for cable or satellite is a must.

As far as quality, I have no problems with the quality of the HD signals(MPEG2) that I receive from D*.

Yea, Top-O-Page, but it's no big deal to me! :eek:
....jc

It's not like we have any choice around here. I moved from D* to Comcast two weeks ago, and I'm very impressed with the HD locals quality. They certainly don't seem "recompressed," and there's are many fewer artifacts than I experienced with D* HD.

And this is going to be the market force that will end up keeping DTV and Dish honest. Anyone who has been following the Voom threads on the satellite forums knows that the forum members raised such a stink when Dish tried to lower resolution that they backed off and stated they would restore full res. Same thing with CBS_E HD. The problem is currently bandwidth, but both providers have launches scheduled this spring with a high number of spotbeams. This should do much to relieve the bandwidth issue.

I'm up near Windsor, in the county with no possibility of getting digital cable or anything from Qwest. So I have been following the satellite threads closely. I have faith there will be a solution and the bandwidth will be acceptable, although probably not of broadcast quality. If I were to guess, we will end up with 1440 x 1080i and a bitrate of around 10Mb/s. Not great, but something. The key is to keep raising a fuss.

acex2,

Anyone, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong. Your TV probably has a QAM tuner, which means you should be able to get the HD locals with your basic Comcast connected to the ATSC/digital input, eliminating the need for the DB4.


I want to compare my OTA HD to my Comcast local stations, I'm thinking OTA might look clearer due to not being compressed by Comcast.
I'm still not clear on hook ups, My JVC HD-P61R1U (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/specs.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101580&itempath=&feature_id=03) has 2 coax inputs, 1 is labeled uhf/vhf the other is ATSC/digital. I have basic Comcast with no STB, and a DB4 OTA, which connection goes where.
does the DB4 OTA connect to the ATSC jack and my cable to the ufh/vfh, or the other way around?
Will my local channels on Comcast come in HD (when available) through the uhf/vhf jack? or does it require the ATSC digital jack?

Thanks

Please don't post info like this as fact. There's no proof of this yet. And, in fact, it's more likely the opposite! First, Dish has WCBS in HD from LA and it looks excellent. Second, I can get KGWN (CBS-HD from Wyoming) and it sounds like crap.Name me one, repeat one channel any mini-dish provider transmits that looks even as good as the source.

They compress SD channels into looking like garbage and are now recompressing the various HD channels to look worse than their originating C-Band signals.

Why would this be any different for local HD channels?

WCBS from LA may look excellent, but I'd bet you it probably looks even better OTA in LA.

It's not like we have any choice around here. I moved from D* to Comcast two weeks ago, and I'm very impressed with the HD locals quality. They certainly don't seem "recompressed," and there's are many fewer artifacts than I experienced with D* HD.We don't have any choice because people are sheep and instead of taking the JeffCo county commisioners and the Golden city council to task they instead throw up their hands, ask "what choice do we have" and pay Comcast instead. Perhaps that made sense in the analog era when cable did provide a better picture, but it doesn't now with HD (and certainly doesn't with SD if you've ever seen what Comcast's digital cable does to signals - bleah.)

If Comcast didn't offer KMGH HD, do you honestly think they would have gotten away with their squirrel-powered HD transmitter and coat hanger antenna for as long as they have? For that matter, the same is true for KUSA; when have you ever, ever heard them mention on-air that "Weather Plus" is on channel 9-2, as opposed to "Comcast Channel 249"? Being the "leader in HD" wouldn't mean anything if no one could see them, would it?

Mini-rant here, but the reason Golden is able to do what they are doing is because people don't give a #$@!. By attempting to kick the broadcasters off Lookout by condemning their land via eminent domain, they will not only destroy any hope of full power HD being broadcast to the Denver Metro area any time in the next ten years, but they will also force most local NTSC stations off the air. But that's OK, "most people have cable or satellite anyway." :rolleyes:

If someone competent somewhere just started an information campaign to let people know Jefferson County wants to take people's free television away, perhaps we'd get somewhere. But no one has, and certainly LCG doesn't care because it saves them from having to make sizable financial outlays. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to find LCG was covertly funding CARE, as symbiotic as the relationship has been to date. Just think of the money they'll save in power costs alone if Golden succeeds and the only transmitters the LCG stations have to operate are the ones atop Republic Plaza! No new buildings, no new tower, no new maintenance costs, no high power transmitters, no trip charges for engineers to drive out to Lookout for transmitter maintenance, no need to even have to replace the aircraft warning lamps on the towers. Golden wins, CARE wins, Lookout Mountain homeowners win, LCG wins, Comcast wins, E* and D* win, Denver area viewers lose. So what else is new.

Granted, most of them don't know HD from SD, but if in response to just the single question "Why can't I watch the Broncos in HD?" every Best Buy, Circuit City, Ultimate Electronics and Big Picture salesperson replied "because the Jefferson County commisioners don't want to allow you to without paying for the privilege," perhaps we'd actually make some progress. Unfortunately, the JeffCo commisioners do what they do because the voices they hear are those of the relatively small but vocal minority of the anti-tower forces, as those who should be voicing an opinion either don't know enough to do so or are willing to roll over and pay Comcast, D* or E* for the privilege of receiving what should be free because "it's not like we have any choice around here."

As far as quality, I have no problems with the quality of the HD signals(MPEG2) that I receive from D*.That's because you haven't seen the C-Band originals.

I still can't believe people were willing to accept what D* was transmitting when they started, let alone the much more horribly compressed and bandwidth limited product they put out today. E* is just as bad.

Then again, I long ago gave up the notion that the American consumer cared at all about quality; they'd be happy to watch VHS EP resolution as long as they could get 2,000 channels of it for $49/month.

kucharsk,
We tried petitions, several FCC letter writing campaigns and of course wrote letters to the stations. Please don't even dare to suggest that KMGH got away with their coat hanger because we didn't try. That's insulting. The glaring omission in your rant is that their just isn't a very high percentage of HD/DTV viewers as compared to NTSC viewers of those many chose to get locals via cable because with cable they have access to hundreds of channels, not just the few locals. Two years ago their were even fewer viewers. Come to think of it where were you 5 years ago when all we had was KMGH and KDVR? Many of us have been around to see KRMA, KCNC, KUSA, and KWGN start digital broadcasts. In fact our efforts here likely resulted in KUSA getting started as they too were holding out. It takes more than just a few enthusiasts to change the world and right now we just don't have the numbers to effect change. Then again if you want to finance a revolution (or PR campaign) let us know but until then keep the rhetoric to yourself.

The editor of the Rocky, Vince Carroll wrote a nice Anti-Golden editoral today. I wrote a letter today to them, they seem to publish most of my letters. Anybody else write them?

RMN Anti-Golden Editoral (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion_columnists/article/0,2777,DRMN_23972_4345268,00.html)

----------------------
kucharsk,

We have been told that Comcast is not re-compressing the local HD feeds they receive. If you have any real proof, please post it. And with most of the local stations sub-dividing their OTA bandwith, they aren't full quality anyway. Can someone who has a receiver with Mb/s read-out let us know how Dish's CBS-HD and Comcast's KCNC-HD compares to KCNC-HD OTA?

As all of you know I don't have the best writing skills or know all of the facts, I have not wrote them. I think the letters in the papers and a small amount of news coverage is the best way to spread the word to public. I may be hard to sell a new big HDTV if the sales person has to explain to the costumer that they may have to subcribe to D*,E* or comcast to get HD. although I do agree with Kucharsk statement "Why can't I watch the Broncos in HD?" every Best Buy, Circuit City, Ultimate Electronics and Big Picture salesperson replied "because the Jefferson County commisioners don't want to allow you to without paying for the privilege," perhaps we'd actually make some progress." I think that would probably open allot of eyes as to what is going on. I think most people just don't know.

Nice editorial. If these keep coming, you would hope somebody in the Golden local govt would say to themselves "politically, is this worth it?"

I'm assuming the problem with any kind of TV news coverage is that the stations of the LCG would all be coming from a position of bias, and feel like they need to stay out of reporting this. They could certainly make it a lead story if they wanted to.

Write some letters guys! Nothing fancy, just be outraged at Golden for the use of Eminent Domain Seizure. The RMN editor is on our side of this issue. They will publish them!

Nice editorial. If these keep coming, you would hope somebody in the Golden local govt would say to themselves "politically, is this worth it?"
I just wrote Vincent Carroll thanking him for the editorial. I also pointed out that people like me 'in the sticks' are being hurt by this crap. Hmmm, maybe I should write the Colorado Attorney General. Hmmm. It's pretty apparent that the City of Golden is acting in an irresponsible(and possibly illegal) manner.
....jc

Jeffcmcc,

That's unfortunate, but I hear ya. I have a friend that lives Uptown, and he has a really rough time getting the RP stations because the 50+ story 'Cash Register Building' casts a brutal 'shadow' over Uptown from the 50+ story RP. Damn you concrete and steel! :rolleyes: As a follow-up to this, I got a Winegard Square Shooter yesterday and mounted it outside. The balcony faces SW so I wasn't too surprised -- zilch, nada, zip. I started to box it up to return and then just for the hellofit put it indoors where the Silver Sensor was. Bam -- 2, 4, 6, 9, 12, 31, everything except 7. I guess experimenting never hurts.

I confirmed yesterday that my QAM tuner (LG), hooked up to comcast in Fort Collins does pull in the unencrypted HD channels.

I also heard a rumor that starting on the 1st, comcast was going to drop the price of basic cable in Fort Collins to around $13.00. I'd be happy if I could get basic cable for that, and tune in the HD channels with my LG receiver. Has anyone else heard of comcast dropping their basic cable rates?

As chief legal counsel to state government, the attorney general is responsible for protecting the public interest, but does not serve as legal counsel or advisor to individual citizens.
I guess that this tower/eminent domain crap qualifies. So, I fired off a letter to the AG. I stated that it's in the Public Interest to have FCC mandated full power digital TV. And, that I questioned both CARE's and The City of Golden's motives. We'll see if this stirs the 'ol pot.

Vincent Carroll just responded to my email. He was unaware that the low power signals were received beyond the metro area. I told him that they are, and that this debacle is hurting a lot of potential viewers.
....jc

As of 12:30 this afternoon, I am receiving KTVD-DT for the first time! Don't know exactly when they went on, but there was still nothing as of 1pm yesterday.

Currently watching "The People's Court", so apparently they are already beyond a 'test pattern' :)

However, currently receiving no audio...yet...

Also, not yet remapping to 20 on my receiver...still shown at Digital Channel 19.

Signal strength just slightly below what I get KRMA and KCNC at, way below KUSA.

I'm sure they are still testing...so hopefully there audio problems will soon be rectified.

Thank you KTVD, Merry belated Christmas to us all!

kucharsk,
We tried petitions, several FCC letter writing campaigns and of course wrote letters to the stations. Please don't even dare to suggest that KMGH got away with their coat hanger because we didn't try. That's insulting. The glaring omission in your rant is that their just isn't a very high percentage of HD/DTV viewers as compared to NTSC viewers of those many chose to get locals via cable because with cable they have access to hundreds of channels, not just the few locals. Two years ago their were even fewer viewers. Come to think of it where were you 5 years ago when all we had was KMGH and KDVR? Many of us have been around to see KRMA, KCNC, KUSA, and KWGN start digital broadcasts. In fact our efforts here likely resulted in KUSA getting started as they too were holding out. It takes more than just a few enthusiasts to change the world and right now we just don't have the numbers to effect change. Then again if you want to finance a revolution (or PR campaign) let us know but until then keep the rhetoric to yourself.No, you misunderstand. This isn't about us; we don't really count for much of anything as we're perhaps 10% tops of those who own HD sets in Denver.

How many of the literally thousands of people who bought HD sets this Christmas do you think know anything about LCG? Or do you think their sales droids just told them that they need to get Comcast to get HD locals, and they did just that?

Five years ago? I've only had HD since 2004 myself, and even then I had hope that LCG would have put up a stronger fight in what should have been a slam dunk argument.

Letter writing campaigns? Do you think all of us here total even the number folks who've sent a check to CARE or who have attended a CARE fundraiser? Has Lannie Garrett ever done a fundraiser for the tower?

I know we don't have the numbers to effect change. That isn't going to change if everyone buying a new HD set blindly calls Comcast or E* or D* once HD locals are available. I also think perhaps the best way to increase our numbers significantly is to get out the fact that Golden wants to take away all free TV - not just HD, but what we have now. No towers due to eminent domain means almost no NTSC and the loss of most area FM radio as well.

I commend CARE, I really do. They're motivated, they know how to throw a fund raiser and they make sure their elected officials are bombarded with their vocal opinions. The elected officials hear the majority opinion from those who express one to be anti-tower so they take anti-tower positions. If Golden evicts the towers, property values go up which makes the voters happy. If the property values go up, property valuation goes up, bringing in more property tax dollars which makes the county happy. Win-win all around.

But this whole business about the LCG stations remaining quiet because it would be biased is bull. Every day the TV stations show bias in some way or another. Pro-LCG ads and editorials would be no different than advertising their programming or telling people to visit "9News.com" or watch "Weather Plus," both things that return direct revenue to the station. But they would never do it because Comcast for one would pull their ads, and maybe even yank Weather Plus. Can't risk that.

CARE certainly didn't take the attitude of "who's going to fund this effort" and the fact that the LCG stations simply don't care is the biggest factor in this whole situation. Their transmitters on Republic allow them to meet FCC mandates for having digital signals on the air, CARE's efforts allow them to not have to spend the money for full power equipment, new buildings or a new tower. Even an accounting school dropout would see paying LCG's lawyers is noise in the budget compared to the line items spending for new equipment entails. The folks at Gannett, McGraw-Hill and Viacom have just saved eight to nine figures per station, not bad. Heck, it probably even paid for Gannett's acquisition of KTVD all by itself.

If the LCG stations really cared, do you think their owners couldn't fund a pretty major public information campaign? Do you think Best Buy, Big Picture, Circuit City or Ultimate couldn't give their employees a little bit of knowledge sandwiched between the non-information they give their staff about their HD sets and the demand they push Monster cables and power protection? Literally one sentence said in each sales spiel about why we don't have HD in Denver would increase the pro-tower ranks sizably every month, but of course they don't care, and as businesses I can't say I really blame them. Besides, they all have co-marketing agreements with Comcast and D* or E*, and every OTA ATSC viewer reduces their new subscriber referral payments.

I don't mean to sound as ornery as I probably do right now, but fact is, CARE is motivated and has made a point of being very vocal about their viewpoint. LCG, which could educate the public properly has instead chosen to take an "Aw, shucks, guys, we tried" attitude because not building saves them tons of money that could be better spent elsewhere. (Recall HD is a major money loser for them as it's not going to result in dime one of increased ad revenue unless they multicast and even then they won't make back what the transition cost for many years to come.)

Meanwhile, we're like the folks complaining about poor video quality on E* and D* as they cram more and more channels in - we're noise. Unless we can do something about that, nothing will change.

The letters to the editor Mr. Santella and others have been writing are a good start, but perhaps we need more. We get 2" of one column on the editorial page, CARE gets 4 column inches on page 17A.

I don't know what to do here, I'm not in advertising and don't have experience in public policy debates. Informational leafletting outside retailers on black Friday may have been one way to go. Perhaps the same for Super Bowl Sunday. Perhaps something tying into the Olympics. Perhaps something exposing CARE for what they are, a group not driven by "health concerns" but one funded in large part by Lookout Mountain Homeowner's Associations. I can't say.

But fact is, I've realized that full power HD in Denver is dead unless we and the stations mount a major effort to change that, and the only way that is going to happen is if a lot more people than those of us on this board get up and make their voices heard about it. There are too many people with vested interests too happy about the way things are now to change things otherwise.

We have been told that Comcast is not re-compressing the local HD feeds they receive. If you have any real proof, please post it. And with most of the local stations sub-dividing their OTA bandwith, they aren't full quality anyway. Can someone who has a receiver with Mb/s read-out let us know how Dish's CBS-HD and Comcast's KCNC-HD compares to KCNC-HD OTA?
I admit from the get-go that I don't know Comcast is compressing local HD channels, but I find it hard to believe they'd pass them full bandwidth while recompressing actual revenue generators like Discovery HD.

It's now 1pm, and pretty obvious they are still 'working out some kinks'...

Still no audio whatsoever.

I've lost their signal completely a number of times, but it came back a few minutes later..so far.

I did see their call letters come up at the top of the hour, and they most certainly now appear as "KTVD-TV and KTVD-DT Denver, KUPN-TV Sterling" so I'm more confident that I'm not imagining this.

No audio from KTVD in Louisville either, but their signal is "booming" in up here, about equal to KCNC, weaker than KUSA, much better than KDVR which is perhaps my weakest channel.

As of 12:30 this afternoon, I am receiving KTVD-DT for the first time! Don't know exactly when they went on, but there was still nothing as of 1pm yesterday.

Currently watching "The People's Court", so apparently they are already beyond a 'test pattern' :)
Good catch UHF!

I just tested, here's the results:
Big Guy(Winegard 8200) Good signal - Locks easily
Small Guy(CM 4228) Good Signal - Locks easily
LG 3200A - 66% signal strength
Mits 65" - No signal meter

However, currently receiving no audio...yet...
Here's where it gets weird:
LG 3200A - No sound
Mits - Shows as Stereo - Good sound

Also, not yet remapping to 20 on my receiver...still shown at Digital Channel 19.
Mapping on both receivers as 19-1.

Signal strength just slightly below what I get KRMA and KCNC at, way below KUSA.
Today, from Republic only KRMA and KTVD. So, for me KTVD is superior to KUSA & KCNC which won't lock.
....jc

kucharsk,

I can assure that the folks at Ultimate WERE well aware of the problems associated with LCG. The problem with coming out and saying "blame Golden, CARE, Deb Carney etc" is economic. As a retailer, do you want to alienate any of your customers? Do you think that Ultimate can afford to piss anyone off, given their tenuous financial position? I believe that Ultimate has their hands full trying to turn their ship around and can ill afford to take a side that could cost them many sales to wealthy clients.

I know for a fact that Bill Pearse (founder of Ultimate Electronics) a canyon resident, attended tower meetings. he spoke out in favor of the towers and was asked by the UE advertising department to stay out of it. I wanted to speak at a tower meeting and was told by reps from LCG to stay away (I attended the meetings but never spoke).

I no longer work for Ultimate/Sound Track but still believe in what they used to be (in the late '80s through the mid '90s) . I want them to succeed, as I like what their new management intends them to be. With that said, let me tell you what I have done to increase awareness.

I have sent e-mails to many friends and family who had no idea about this tower issue. I used some CARE tricks (told people that if these towers go away, we might loose local TV altogether or cable/sat providers may need to increase rates to augment the added costs to receive the signal via fiber or microwave) to get their attention. I then sent them links to several websites; both for and against the towers, and asked them to make a stand, sign a petition and write their local papers and TV stations.

So far, I have made 50 people (replys received in my in box) aware of this situation. They have committed to forward my e-mail to other Colorado residents. I am hoping that this "grass roots" approach can make a major impact.

-Matt

I get decent signal (less than KUSA, KCNC and RMPBS) but no audio (Samsung SIR-T100).

I guess that we can look forward to many weeks of frustrating PSIP changes that will give some of us audio while others have their tuners "lock-up" and need to be re-booted.

I am still very happy to see UPN ATSC broadcasts in Denver. I am also looking forward to hearing from new HDTV owners who have never experienced the problems associated with an ATSC launch.

Isn't that right KWGN?

-Matt

I can lock onto KTVD-DT, but get no picture or sound right now.

Any suggestions for UPN-HD content to watch? I've heard good things about Veronica Mars...

I can assure that the folks at Ultimate WERE well aware of the problems associated with LCG. The problem with coming out and saying "blame Golden, CARE, Deb Carney etc" is economic. As a retailer, do you want to alienate any of your customers? Do you think that Ultimate can afford to piss anyone off, given their tenuous financial position? I believe that Ultimate has their hands full trying to turn their ship around and can ill afford to take a side that could cost them many sales to wealthy clients.So they're going to lose sales for telling the truth about the situation? No matter whether you're pro-tower or belong to CARE, saying it's CARE and Golden's fault we don't have high power HD is not a lie in any way, shape or form. Heck, they could even say it's because of CARE and LCG and hand out a little fact sheet urging people to contact both LCG and the JeffCo commisioners if they want HD in Denver. Fact is, by not saying anything no one even knows there's an issue.

I know for a fact that Bill Pearse (founder of Ultimate Electronics) a canyon resident, attended tower meetings. he spoke out in favor of the towers and was asked by the UE advertising department to stay out of it. I wanted to speak at a tower meeting and was told by reps from LCG to stay away (I attended the meetings but never spoke). Which, IMHO more than anything else tells you where LCG's real feelings on the matter lie; once again IMHO, they can make a public play that they want a tower but not agressively campaign for one. It makes them look good but saves them a lot of money while deflecting blame back to CARE and JeffCo.

I have sent e-mails to many friends and family who had no idea about this tower issue. I used some CARE tricks (told people that if these towers go away, we might loose local TV altogether or cable/sat providers may need to increase rates to augment the added costs to receive the signal via fiber or microwave) to get their attention. I then sent them links to several websites; both for and against the towers, and asked them to make a stand, sign a petition and write their local papers and TV stations.

So far, I have made 50 people (replys received in my in box) aware of this situation. They have committed to forward my e-mail to other Colorado residents. I am hoping that this "grass roots" approach can make a major impact.That's the type of thing we need, and I congratulate you for your efforts.

However, imagine if the LCG stations ran one single :15 promo during their nightly news just once; that's literally millions of people instantly made aware, but they'll never do it; they like the status quo just fine.

BTW, it's not using CARE-type tactics to warn people their OTA local TV will go away; if Golden gets their way they will seize the land the present towers occupy on Lookout. How long would it take for a tower to get through the planning process somewhere else in the area? Five years? Ten? Ever?

Frankly LCG may be hoping that happens too, as they'd get to save even more money by shutting down their NTSC broadcasts long before the digital cutover; their total signal distribution costs would be whatever it costs to run the Republic DTV transmitters and the cost of a fiber line to Comcast for NTSC. I'm sure there are accountants at Gannett, McGraw-Hill and Viacom drooling over that one already. If it weren't for the need to keep up public appearances, I'm sure their accountants would have already accepted Golden's offer for the land.

Frankly LCG may be hoping that happens too, as they'd get to save even more money by shutting down their NTSC broadcasts long before the digital cutover; their total signal distribution costs would be whatever it costs to run the Republic DTV transmitters and the cost of a fiber line to Comcast for NTSC. I'm sure there are accountants at Gannett, McGraw-Hill and Viacom drooling over that one already.
Come on now! You know that they couldn't do that! How many households($$$) would they loose? What would the FCC do to them? How would the networks feel about that?

As chief legal counsel to state government, the attorney general is responsible for protecting the public interest...
As I see it, full power digital broadcasts(as mandated by the FCC) are in the public interest. And, the fact that a private group is trying to block the mandate, as well as The City of Golden intending on abusing their powers of eminant domain, it is in the Public Interest for the AG to get involved. You can directly email the Colorado AG. Maybe if we flood the AG's office with email, that he'll look into the questionable activities of both sCARE & The City of Golden.

I've sent my email, it's your turn now!
....jc

I like the direction taken in the last couple of pages of this epic thread. I agree for the most part with what kucharsk's saying and that the LCG and especially the broadcasters aren't doing enough to resolve the issue. I find the lack of TV coverage about the issue astonishing. The eminent domain matter itself deserves significant coverage as it is an extreme use of the legislation.

Broadcasters are commercial entities, but they are regulated by the FCC and should strive to serve the Public Interest, first and foremost.

What's the AG's e-mail address again?

Thanks!

What's the AG's e-mail address again?
Clicking on the link below should fire up your email program.
attorney.general@state.co.us (attorney.general@state.co.us )
....jc

Profile to RP or Lookout or both?Here are both. On the way to Lookout there are a couple of small ridges west of Greeley that might cause some trouble (especially since it's not full power). I would expect a lot more trouble trying to get anything from RP.

Would appreciate a profile for:Well, you've got a better shot to lookout than flood222 (North Table Mtn. should not be a problem), but not to RP. Too many ridges in the way to make it easy. But let us know if you get anything.

70% for me on KTVD 19-1, with no sound

this signal is slightly better than KRMA, about equal to KCNC and slightly worse thatn KUSA

As of 12:30 this afternoon, I am receiving KTVD-DT for the first time! Don't know exactly when they went on, but there was still nothing as of 1pm yesterday.

Currently watching "The People's Court", so apparently they are already beyond a 'test pattern' :)

However, currently receiving no audio...yet...

Also, not yet remapping to 20 on my receiver...still shown at Digital Channel 19.

Signal strength just slightly below what I get KRMA and KCNC at, way below KUSA.

I'm sure they are still testing...so hopefully there audio problems will soon be rectified.

Thank you KTVD, Merry belated Christmas to us all!

Hey, UHForever,
Thanks for the heads up on UPN19. Looks like I've got some new experimenting to do in the next few days.

My DTC-100 signal strength is 76 for channel 19-3 which is exactly the same as KCNC. Great upconversion of the SD material. Audio is fine for me.

Don

Rescanned my channels and picked up KTVD 19-1 at 95%, and also picked up KMGH 7-2.

[Dream sequence Mode ON]
It is a lazy afternoon during the time between Christmas and New Years day. jm wakes up from a bad dream (probably caused by waaay too much holiday cheer and food) to check the AVS forum, only to find he has time warped back to 2001/2002.

[Rant mode ON]
:eek:
The last few pages sure seem to me like "Deja Vu all over again....and again.....and again....and again.....etc." Check back into the first thread and you will see many of us 'old timers' writing the exact same things. Check the second thread and you will again see us with a bunch of new faces, again writing the same things. Read the third thread from the start and you will find even more new folks and the old timers 'again writing the same things'.

I don't mean to sound so negative but letter writing campaigns, contacting state legislature members, and yes, even trying to get the state attorney general involved, well, we've been there, done that, and with no success. I personally spoke to a bunch of state legislature folks and asked them even talk to the AG about 4 years ago and no help was found. I also talked to managers and exchanged messages with the the right people from LU and Soundtrak. They wouldn't touch this fight with a ten foot pole. Maybe at some point there will be a critical mass of complaints that will finally get something moving, but I have no idea when that 'event horizon' will be reached.

I could 'possibly' even get myself excited again if I even thought the LCG members were seriously interested in winning this thing, but now I even wonder if they won't just take their $1.6M from Golden and move away, and wait until the FCC 'hands' them some 'free' property to use. At any rate good luck to all of you who want to start 'another' letter writing campaign, but for me, "been there, done that, burned out". Good luck with the effort though, at least this time the editorials in the paper appear to be on our side.

[Rant mode OFF]

:eek:
Just ran a scan in case this feeling of 'Rip Van Winkle' is a mirage. Strong signal from UPN 20 here without sound. Guess it can't be 2001 after all, but if it is near 2006 the signals would be coming with more power from Lookout Mt. This doesn't look right at all. Even though I have read all the comments many times before, yet those names on the postings sure look different. Maybe if I go back to sleep for another 4 years.
[Dream sequence Mode OFF]

Happy New Year (whatever year it is) to all, and good luck with that 'thing', and to all a good night!
ZZZZZZZZZZZZ! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! ZZZZZZZZZZZ!

:)

I rechecked KTVD(19.1). And it's same as before. The Mits 65" is putting out the sound and it's labeled as 'Stereo'. Other stations are all labeled as 'Surround Sound'. The LG 3200A still is not putting out any sound.

Both the Mits & the LG are putting out a good breakup free pic. Now why can't KUSA & KCNC do that from the same location with a higher ERP? It must be their antennas.

Since I'm so far out(53 miles) I'll keep checking to make sure my reception is not an anomaly(atmospheric/tropospheric).
....jc

Come on now! You know that they couldn't do that! How many households($$$) would they loose? What would the FCC do to them? How would the networks feel about that?The FCC has already made clear they will not get involved in local zoning decisions on tower placement, and the Supreme Court has said taking of private land under eminent domain is OK.

Thus this scenario occurs:

1) Golden condemns the land the towers sit on and tears them down.
2) Stations must find a new site for theiir transmitters.

You and I both know that if it's even possible, it would take at least five years to get a tower for a different site approved, and one need only look at CARE and the efforts to defeat towers on sites like Eldorado Mountain to see what would happen.

In this case, the effort to "relocate" their NTSC transmitters would conveniently be pushed out to 2010, a date beyond the analog cutoff.

The stations would "have to" shut off their NTSC transmitters early and would be "unable" to find a new site for them, thus the stations' hands would effectively be "tied" by "circumstances beyond their control." Neither the FCC nor the networks could really penalize a station for local citizens being opposed to all possible tower sites and the time it would take to get a new tower through any other county zoning board.

Since their signals are available on Comcast, D*, E* and C-Band, I'm sure their accountants could well determine that that percentage of viewers is just too expensive to serve, so it makes sense to let the eminent domain decisions "play themselves out." I'm sure Comcast could even come up with a plan to "help in this crisis by offering free installation and only $5/month to allow you to continue to receive your local stations."

This isn't as far-fetched as it may seem; recall that since all the existing towers are grandfathered into the current zoning regs, if anything were to happen to any of the existing towers they could not be replaced where they are. The eminent domain process would just accelerate that process.

Really, if you think about it, this is no different than the process NYC television stations had to go through after losing their transmitter facilities atop WTC 1 on 9/11.

(For those interested, more details of how exactly those stations coped can be found here (http://www.fybush.com/wtc-recovery.html); it's an excellent read.)

The stations would "have to" shut off their NTSC transmitters early and would be "unable" to find a new site for them, thus the stations' hands would effectively be "tied" by "circumstances beyond their control." Neither the FCC nor the networks could really penalize a station for local citizens being opposed to all possible tower sites and the time it would take to get a new tower through any other county zoning board....This isn't as far-fetched as it may seem;
Yes it is. It's %&#$ silly. Maybe stupid is a better description. :eek:

There are public safety issues that would trump any attempt to shutdown existing stations, until a replacement was online. And, digital ain't it(not until '09 anyway). How would the EBS(Emergency Broadcast System) get it's message out? How would important news & weather info get out?

If Golden succeeds in it's nefarious attempts to take the land, the towers will remain until there are replacements.
....jc

Coming in very good here. ~3-4% higher than KCNC and about the same as KRMA. Just the opposite as you s-dawg. What a wierd situation we have here. :confused: BTW, I have sound and picture (Mits 48413, E*811).

70% for me on KTVD 19-1, with no sound

this signal is slightly better than KRMA, about equal to KCNC and slightly worse thatn KUSA

JMartinko,

Love the rant :)

I am with you. I remember the efforts of all in this forum and do not want to discount what each member has done in the past. Today we have a powerful potential advantage to spread support for our cause: ANALOG shutdown in 2009.

I feel that it maybe the correct time to begin spreading the word about the potential lose of ALL TV SIGNALS. The news papers are FINALLY taking a stand and running editorials about the tower situation. Analog shut-off is guaranteed to be spoken of constantly by local stations (when the bill is signed into law). This may be the best timing for an extra push.

Concerning permanent tower shutdown (no over the air broadcast). Do you really believe that NBC, CBS, ABC and UPN would allow a licencee to operate without an active tower??? They would yank their affiliation with the network so fast your head would spin. Then you would see KWHD your new leaders in HDTV. They would get their pick of NBC or ABC and the millions a network license would bring.

-Matt

BTW, I have sound and picture (Mits 48413, E*811).
Yup, my Mits receives the sound as well. I think that they aren't sending out a Dolby Digital signal, and my other receiver(and other people's receivers) are not set to pick this type of audio up. Just a thought!
....jc

Well, you've got a better shot to lookout than flood222 (North Table Mtn. should not be a problem), but not to RP. Too many ridges in the way to make it easy. But let us know if you get anything.

I get KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT 31.1 easily with an indoor antenna,

sometimes KUSA-HD (9.1) and weather (9.2), sometimes 22.1 KFCT.

Not sure how to read the profiles, but are you saying that it's unlikely I'll get KCNC or KMGH (when ready) or other RP stations?

If not likely, I'll pass on trying to find someone to install an OTA antenna outside or in the attic. From what I read here, since I can sometimes get KUSA, I thought I'd be able to get that and the others reliably with a better OTA setup.

Well, you've got a better shot to lookout than flood222 (North Table Mtn. should not be a problem), but not to RP. Too many ridges in the way to make it easy. But let us know if you get anything.

And thanks for the profiles ... :)

I'm receiving KTVD 19-1 at about 86% on my Dish 811, just slightly lower than KMGH, my strongest station, that I usually get at about 88%-89%. I'm getting both picture and sound. Just watched a little bit of Home Improvement. I thought the PQ was very good.

Ahh, this takes me back to the day of shortwave radio and QSL cards. Signal strength. I'm over on the west side of town. Good, strong signals OTA for KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT. Pretty good for KRMA-DT. Got a weird problem on KUSA-DT 9.1 and 9.2. Lots of pixelization for both. KCNC-DT shows a carrier, but I see no program. No KMGH. But I have yet to really play around with the indoor antenna.

My setup... Mitsubishi WS 55517... brand spanking new since 12/21.

I have Comcrash, which is also why I'm looking for OTA. Sick to death of their muddy "Digital" images. I've also noticed some significant differences in OTA vs Comcrash on the HDTV programming. OTA is crystal clear.

My OTA is just an old pair of rabbit ears with a round thingie in the center for UHF channels. No amplifier.

If you have suggestions for an indoor OTA, I'm all ears... rabbit ears, I guess.

Take care@

kucharsk:

1) Lots of old timers here burnt out on doing anything. But rally the troops. It does not hurt to do this. Lots of new readers here. Motivate them.

2) There were JeffCo commisioners that voted FOR the tower. There was an election. Anti-Tower commisioners got elected (the third had to resign for some dumb ass stunts). You need to rally the JeffCo voters to elect Pro-Tower commisioners.

If you go back thru the record we have reps from this thread at almost every JeffCo meeting on this topic and reports back here in this thread on what transpired at those meetings.

3) Out of district. Ernie wrote several letters to Golden councilman. They traded barbs (seemed like he was a bit ill-informed), but in the end said you don't live in Golden, so I don't care what you think. Again it is MUCH more effective if people from Golden (and JeffCo) complain.

4) Golden is not currently going for the land the current towers sit on. Only the site for the new LCG tower. So current towers will not be 'falling' anytime soon.

5) This will most likely end with ATSC being broadcast from the current NTSC towers. CARE will fight that. Otherwise FCC, Governor*, or Legislature needs to step in. None will do so until a crisis is here. FCC has stayed out of TV towers typ, but has stepped into it in a few cases with Cell phone towers - so it is not inconcievable that they would act in a crisis here.

I predict NOTHING will happen until shortly before 2/18/2009 when NTSC goes dark, or very dim on the top of RP.


* Well not him. You see how much sway he had in Churchill and CU incidents.

JMartinko,

Concerning permanent tower shutdown (no over the air broadcast). Do you really believe that NBC, CBS, ABC and UPN would allow a licencee to operate without an active tower??? They would yank their affiliation with the network so fast your head would spin. Then you would see KWHD your new leaders in HDTV. They would get their pick of NBC or ABC and the millions a network license would bring.

-Matt

If I were a broadcaster, I would think my greatest concern is the potential loss of my broadcast license because I am not able to broadcast OTA. I mean if I can't broadcast OTA come Feb 17, 2009, then what prevents the FCC from pulling that license and awarding it to somebody else who can? Indeed, aren't the broadcasters operating the low power DT stations at the moment doing so to keep those licenses valid?

It seems to me Jeffco's government should wake up and do so quickly. I can't see Tribune, Viacom, Disney, Rupert Murdoch at Fox and Gannett tolerating the loss of a broadcast license or advertising revenue after the 2009 cutoff due to local or county governments' intransigence. I see huge federal lawsuits for mega-millions of dollars in Jeffco's future, driving the local governments and any opposition group(s) into bankruptcy. For Jeffco and Golden under TABOR and Gallagher, that won't be too hard to achieve.

I'm a newcomer to the whole issue. May I ask a question? Why don't the broadcasters currently using Lookout Mountain to broadcast OTA in SD use the same towers to broadcast instead in DT? I can't imagine them forfeiting their right to broadcast because they keep using their current model: SD from Lookout Mountain, DT from downtown.

Thirty-seven months seems like a long time now. But I guarantee broadcasters that when it's all said and done, the time will fly quicker than the feet of Mercury. I wouldn't worry about Jeffco's pigheadedness when there is that much at stake. I'd take what I have available now, as KWGN and KDVR have done, set up at Lookout Mountain, and go from there. Then again, I'm not aware of all the technical and legal intricacies of doing this, so it may not be feasible.

But as business consultant Jason Jennings says, the first characteristic of a top-tier company is Abandonment-- abandon what doesn't work. If it stands in the way of progress, get rid of it and move on.

Finally, does anybody know the percentages on how many people in Denver receive their TV programming OTA? A friend who is part of the anti group (and we've had a few heated exchanges on this) believes the number is so small the issue itself is virtually moot. I told him I think he'd be surprised, especially among those using Dish and DirecTV for local HD. Until these services go to MPEG4 compression sometime next year, customers are relegated to OTA for local HDTV.

There are public safety issues that would trump any attempt to shutdown existing stations, until a replacement was online. And, digital ain't it(not until '09 anyway). How would the EBS(Emergency Broadcast System) get it's message out? How would important news & weather info get out?The same way they do now for most viewers - via the stations' broadcasts on Comcast. If you haven't noticed, Comcast is subject to the same EAS alert and test procedures as broadcast television, and new rules require the satellite broadcasters to somehow implement EAS capabilities as well.

But given the EAS primary for Denver Metro is KOA Radio (http://www.denvergov.com/OEM/template1477.asp), I think an argument could be made that the fact that KOA's transmitter (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/amq?list=0&facid=29738) is located in Parker (http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?address=&city=&state=&zipcode=&country=&title=%3cb%3eLatitude%3a%2039%26%23176%3b%2030%20Min%2e%2022 %20Sec%2e%3cbr%3eLongitude%3a%20%2d104%26%23176%3b%2045%20Mi n%2e%2057%20Sec%2e%3c%2fb%3e%3cbr%20%2f%3e%20%20&cid=lfmaplink2&name=Latitude%3a%2039%26%23176%3b%2030%20Min%2e%2022%20Sec%2 e%3cbr%3eLongitude%3a%20%2d104%26%23176%3b%2045%20Min%2e%205 7%20Sec%2e) in combination with the fact that all the stations would still be available to cable subscribers would mean there would be no real net loss in EAS coverage were the signals on Lookout Mountain to go silent.

I'm a newcomer to the whole issue. May I ask a question? Why don't the broadcasters currently using Lookout Mountain to broadcast OTA in SD use the same towers to broadcast instead in DT? I can't imagine them forfeiting their right to broadcast because they keep using their current model: SD from Lookout Mountain, DT from downtown.The current towers are grandfathered in because though they violate current Jefferson County zoning regulations, they have been there since before most any of the homeowners in CARE were.

The Jefferson County courts (or the commissioners, I'm not sure which) have ruled that Digital TV signals are considered an additional signal, not a television signal as NTSC is still being transmitted, so stations are not allowed to place digital transmitters on their towers on Lookout as that would be adding an additional transmitter. That would be considered a modification to the existing tower and thus would violate the JeffCo zoning regulations.

I'm not quite sure how KWGN and KDVR have gotten away with broadcasting HD from Lookout to date; perhaps they got their transmitters up before JeffCo's ruling on the transmitters.

(This is also why some surmise the digital signals will end up coming from the same transmitters on the same towers on Lookout once NTSC goes away, as the stations would be allowed to replace their analog TV transmissions with digital ones from the same site under the grandfathered zoning regs.)

However, as Golden has stated they want all towers off Lookout, the fight will be on for a long time to come.

As far as LCG is concerned, I've never quite understood why they couldn't erect a new tower on the plains, in say Mead, though I believe not being able to construct a tower of the required height in such close proximity to Denver International Airport has something to do with it.

Frankly I think smack in the middle of Rocky Flats would be ideal, but that's just me…

I'd like to add my 2 cents worth to the LCG tower discussion, free OTA, retailers, etc.

My understanding, from what I have read - Judge Jackson's rulings, CARE's web page, LCG's web page, etc. - is that the zoning for the LCG tower was approved by the prior JeffCo Commissioners and nothing has changed that. Once that approval was made, CARE took the matter to court, in my mind, effectively suing its own elected representatives for purportedly not following the zoning regulations. Judge Jackson's last ruling clearly states that CARE has lost all of the issues that it raised with the exception that the falling tower issue remained to be resolved. The latest vote by the JeffCo Commisioners on the falling tower issue was merely an expression of opinion. I don't believe it has any legal standing. If it did, the legal ruling that Judge Jackson must make would be moot.

Applying some common sense to this issue, the question "Why would Golden pursue an eminent domain action at this time?" needs to be answered. If CARE and Golden believe Judge Jackson is going to rule in their favor and grant a permanent injunction, there is no need for an eminent domain action. Even if they don't have a clue regarding how he would rule, there is still no need for an eminent domain action at this time. They can wait for Judge Jackson's ruling. If they felt Judge Jackson was going to grant the permanent injunction, this tower issue goes away. They would be spending a lot of time and money for nothing by pursuing an eminent domain action at this time. But apparently CARE and Golden must feel that Judge Jackson will not grant the permanent injuction. That is why the proposal to buy LCG's land was put forth with the threat of an eminent domain action. They've got to keep some pressure on LCG after (hopefully) Judge Jackson follows the law to disuade LCG from risking making an investment that they stand a (small) chance of losing.

An eminent domain action by Golden, IMHO, is nothing more than a tactic they are willing to employ to delay the building of the tower, through drawn out legal actions equating to procrastination, in the hope that LCG will find another site as an easier route to take because LCG is running out of time before analog shutoff occurs. To the best of my knowledge, a city has never been successful in exercising eminent domain over property outside of its boundaries. If Golden really believes it has a strong case to be the first to accomplish this feat, I think they are fools. They are now grasping at straws. Since LCG isn't going to sell Golden the property (but they may have a viable Plan B we know nothing about) and Golden can't annex the property because it isn't contiguous to their borders, eminent domain is is their last and only choice to keep this issue alive.

LCG appears to be passive to many of you as indicated by your posts. Many of you believe that the stations are saving money, blah, blah, blah. If I'm LCG, I wouldn't make my legal tactics known to anyone, and if that means appearing to be passive, so be it. And if you don't think these stations are commited to spending the money for the ATSC upgrade, considering that stations in every other locale in the country have done so, there must be something unique about Denver that I don't understand.

I think it's fair to state that KCNC, KMGH, KUSA, and KTVD have licenses to broadcast television signals and they aren't going to give those up and merely have Comcast, E*, and D* send feeds of their programming through their systems. They have OTA viewers. If they merely provide feeds, the networks will pull their affiliation agreements and probably provide the feeds directly via KCBS, KABC, etc. as they now do in "white" areas. They would lose their OTA licenses. As a result, local advertisers would loose a communication medium; Ed Green, Mike Nelson, and Kathy Sabine lose their jobs, and the FCC would eventually grant licenses to new broadcasters willing to put a transmitter on Squaw or in Ft. Morgan. That isn't going to happen. And KWHD won't take on one of the networks because they are owned by a religious group and are on a "mission". Perhaps KWGN would dump WB for a major network, but other stations taking over NBC, ABC, and CBS affiliations isn't going to happen because there aren't any other stations.

The attorney general will not get involved in this matter. Attorneys general sue insurance companies, auto dealers, mortgage brokers, and security firms for bilking the public. They don't get into local zoning disputes, especially ones tied up in the courts involving federal agencies - FCC. So save some time and forget about emailing your concerns to the state.

I believe Japan currently requires all TV's that are for sale to display a black or white sticker. The black one indicates that the TV will not tune ATSC signals and will become obsolete in a short period of time. The white one indicates ATSC compatability. The FCC has addressed this issue by moving up the date for ATSC tuner requirements in new TV's. And what do our retailers do to be forthright with the public? If the post regarding Ultimate Electronics is any indication, their only concern is to sell NTSC TV's to an unknowing public for economic gain and to keep their employees from exercising their free speech rights, knowing full well that many of these customers will return in say, 2009, to replace the NTSC TV they bought in 2005 with a new ATSC TV. I find that reprehensible!

It appears from the posts on this forum, especially over the past few days, that there is a consensus that CARE won and LCG lost. I believe the opposite. CARE is on its last leg and LCG is just waiting for the legal process to take its course. There may be court appeals. There may be delays. We can "thank" CARE for that. But there will be full power ATSC TV on Lookout. And I don't make that conclusion from looking through rose colored glasses. We need to stop and smell the "facts".

I do agree that the LCG stations do not provide any coverage on this issue. While it may not be effective, I do plan to email the stations and ask them why they do not cover this issue. Perhaps it is a legal tactic emanating from LCG. But the least they could do, for example, is to say: "watch Weather Plus on Comcast channel 249 or OTA on channel 9-2." After all, they are the "leader" of HDTV in Denver!

Finally, I receive a quarterly publication at work that is directed to individuals and companies moving to the Denver area. It's put out by some Chamber of Commerce organization. As of the September 2005 issue, there are a little over 2,216,000 residents in the metro Denver area (Douglas, JeffCo, Denver, Arapahoe, Adams, etc). That number does not include Loveland, Greeley, Ft. Collins, etc. By comparison, there are only a few hundred posters to this forum at best. I doubt very much that we can be effective standing alone, like in emailing the attorney general. Perhaps we can be a catalyst to the newspapers getting involved in this matter, but merely ranting on this forum does little good, sorry to say.

To the best of my knowledge, a city has never been successful in exercising eminent domain over property outside of its boundaries.Are you sure the LCG property is outside of the city of Golden?

The City of Golden boundaries include the Lariat Loop trail and much of Lookout Mountain proper.

Networks aren't going to pull anyone's affiliation; recall stations now have to pay networks for the rights to broadcast their programming, it's no longer a case where the networks pay the stations. The stations aren't going to lose licenses either, as they are broadcasting, just at limited power from the top of Republic Plaza. That requires an FCC license, therefore the LCG stations are indeed broadcasting DTV signals, just not at full power.

You may be right that Judge Jackson may rule for LCG, but there is no requirement that he rule on the matter of tower failure anytime soon, either.

There may indeed be full power HD on Lookout, but the question is will it occur before the NTSC cutoff in 2009? At this point, I'm highly doubtful.

Good post MHM.
I mostly agree with you. I definitely think ATSC will be broadcast from Lookout at some point in time (only time will tell if that's in a brand spanking new facility or from their current 50 year old facilities).

One point in your post I do not agree with is this: I don't think LCG has any intentions of walking away from broadcasting ATSC and never did think that -- but I do think if they can walk away from building new facilities and operating two sets of transmitters (that eat lots of electricity) it's oh so easy to put the high power facility on the back burner. Sure most stations around the country have made the investment but they didn't have an obstructionist group opposing their every move. SCARE has been convenient to LCG in that so far they've not had to build a new facility and operate two expensive high power transmitters. If the Judge removes the injunction I'm sure they'll go ahead and build the new facility but if he doesn't I think the stations will just wait for 2009 and transition their existing facilities to ATSC. Either way in the end they keep their licenses but reusing their existing facilities is the lowest cost path so I do think they're intent to bide their time and see what happens rather than push forward with an all out effort to get LCG approved sooner rather than later. The FCC has been pretty much happy with their "later rather than sooner" approach so they have nothing but money to save by letting things proceed along slowly. There's probably not a huge number of ATSC viewers of those 2.2 million residents you mentioned so except for a few of us there's really no need to rush. Anyway you look at it waiting pays.

My letter to the AG...

I am writing you in pure disgust at the city of Golden's decision to use Eminent Domain Seizure to literally 'steal' land on Lookout Mountain. First their threats and now their go-ahead to attempt this, is so far beyond right and wrong it's horrendous.

They are doing this purely out of spite and not for the reason of creating open space, they are stating. If the legally proposed Lake Cedar Group consolidation tower were to be built, the net result would actually be more open space. The are now running scared that Judge Jackson will rule on 'law' and not the JeffCo Commissioners 2-1 denial (which was not based on 'facts' as the transcripts show, but, based on their pre-election promises to the C-A-R-E organization, that if you elect us, we will deny any new tower applications)

As a resident and business owner in Golden for over 20 years, I ask you to please start an investigation. If they get away with this, there's no stopping them. This frightens me more than anything. Please protect us now... and in the future.

I'm not quite sure how KWGN and KDVR have gotten away with broadcasting HD from Lookout to date; perhaps they got their transmitters up before JeffCo's ruling on the transmitters.Their towers are totally zoned 'legal' by JeffCo. The other towers are 'legal-non-conforming'. Which basically means they are legal now, but can be removed. I can't remember exactly the law on how.

Good signal on 19-1 here at my 6450 foot elevation but no sound... how does one get sound? Never had a sound issue before.

Any update's on KMGH moving? Read some threads on that a few weeks ago but havent heard anything further...

Lastly, any ideas on when DirectTv will begin Denver locals, and what type receiver will be needed....

Based on the rollout of the first 12 markets, Denver locals will probably appear sometime around May at the earliest. And, I believe that includes only the big three networks and Fox.

In a nutshell, all of your Directv equipment will have to be replaced to support the addition satellites and the switch to an MPEG4 stream. Dish, multiswitch, receivers, etc. If you're diplexing your OTA signal, that will no longer work.

The specific model numbers for the new MPEG4 receivers are the H20 (currently available), and the HR20-250 (the DVR, supposed to start shipping at the end of Feb.)

The Home Media Center is expected sometime before the end of the year.

Based on the rollout of the first 12 markets, Denver locals will probably appear sometime around May at the earliest. And, I believe that includes only the big three networks and Fox.
Actually, it s/b much earlier than that. I'd say Jan-Feb timeframe. Remember they started testing in Detroit in October, now HD LIL is available in most of the 1st 12 cities.
....jc

MHM,

I agree with much you have posted, but take issue with a few points.

1) My last post on Ultimate (I don't believe this is the forum to discuss retailers), if you believe that Ultimate is interested in selling NTSC TVs, then you haven't been in their stores. NTSC analog TVs are "lost leaders." There is no profit in their sales and cost money for each sold. ATSC TVs (any TV over 36" in size) are were the profit is.

UE never censored me about the towers (I used to train many Colorado sales associates and spent more than an hour covering tower issues and what to recommend for antennas Channel Master 4228, Large Wingard UHF or something like the Terk TV32) they have merely taken the stance that they do not want to take a side and alienate any customers, they are neutral.

2) Having read the St. Louis, Grand Junction, Colorado Springs, Wichita and other broadcast threads, there are many broadcasters who have risked loosing their license by delaying their tower construction. They are not being impeded by local zoning or anti-tower organizations, they just don't want to spend the money until they are in danger of loosing their license. The FCC has not pulled anyones ATSC license (to my knowledge) and have allowed extensions for the most trivial of reasons. I don't think it is a reach to believe that KUSA, KTVD and KMGH would relish in the opportunity to "delay" the expense for as long as possible. Given their resistance to get on the air at the beginning of ATSC (sorry KMGH but your coat hanger does not constitute a viable ATSC source) I think their actions show a lack of interest in HDTV.

3) I think that local broadcasters need to do more than merely mention their weather+ channel. This is a news story. For many Denver metro residents it could mean a total lose of local news and weather (not likely but a possibility). It will affect more people in the metro area than a couple of contractors that have not finished work on a home. It is more important to our citizens than a story about a company that may-or-may not bo into bankruptcy.

They need to cover this like any other news story; with their own person bias firmly implanted into the story (could a pitbull be mauling your child right this second, this story and many others that really aren't news after these commercial messages).

I would love for the stations to go black; in unison, for 15 minutes (do it during the Super Bowl). Put a black screen with whit text on their TVs that explains how this is the fate of their TV if the new tower is not built on Lookout. I promise that this would get peoples attention. This would get every news paper in the city to write a story about the towers. You may even get national coverage. (a guy can ope for an insane intrusion by the networks, can't he?)

-Matt

I get KWGN-DT and KDVR-DT 31.1 easily with an indoor antenna,
sometimes KUSA-HD (9.1) and weather (9.2), sometimes 22.1 KFCT.
Not sure how to read the profiles, but are you saying that it's unlikely I'll get KCNC or KMGH (when ready) or other RP stations?
If not likely, I'll pass on trying to find someone to install an OTA antenna outside or in the attic. From what I read here, since I can sometimes get KUSA, I thought I'd be able to get that and the others reliably with a better OTA setup.I think if you get KUSA, you should try for the others. KCNC is harder because of its higher frequency (greater attenuation). KMGH, if it transmits at the same power as the others, should be similar to KCNC.
The profile just shows what's in the way of a direct line of sight to the target. Your location is on the left, the target (RP for one of the plots, Lookout for the other) is on the right. The more obstructions, the more work it would be to receive signals. But the profile doesn't mean you will or won't get signals - it just provides an indication of one of the factors that affects your ability to receive them.

Hopefully! But, If I have my dates correct, Spaceway 1 launched in April, they started testing in October, and the rollout is just now finishing. Spaceway 2, which will provide the Denver locals launched in November.

You make a good point, Kucharsk, regarding the network affiliations, but I think this issue is a bit complicated. There are two situations involved here, the O&O KCNC and the others. Subscribers to D*, for example, can receive KCBS from LA because KCNC is is O&O and CBS is more concerned that viewers watch CBS programming rather than KCNC's 10:00 PM newscast. Will CBS cutoff its programming from KCNC? I don't think so. But they're going to be concerned with a drop in advertising revenue if OTA falls out of the equation. As for the other stations, can they afford to keep network affiliation with a similar drop in advertising revenue due to the loss of OTA? Maybe not. Also, without an OTA signal, nothing that I know of would preclude D*, E*, or even Comcast (although they have nice agreements with at least KMGH and KUSA to carry their subchannels, and, in the case of KMGH, they have an exclusive feed of the weather channel that prohibits KMGH from broadcasting it OTA on channel 7-2) from bringing in distant stations for network coverage. They probably wouldn't do that, but they could if they wanted to, which would kill local feeds without OTA.

Regarding your comment, Kucharsk, that stations will not lose their licenses because they ARE broadcasting, even at low power, does not hold water with the way I look at the situation. The low power broadcasts are under STA's. STA's are temporary, will expire, as I understand it, NLT 12-31-06 including all available extensions, and do not constitute a license to broadcast on a permanent basis. If the FCC enforces the current regs and doesn't grant the LCG stations some extraordinary extentions beyond 12-31-06 to be at full power, the stations run the risk of either losing their licenses at analog shutoff or being bound and locked in to their current STA power levels, which, for all intents and purposes, is just like losing their licenses. I don't think for a minute that the FCC is going to let the LCG stations tell them what to do. It's going to be the other way around because the FCC is the boss. We're talking fines and license pulls here, not broadcasting on STA's ad finitum.

I also disagree with the concept that there is a difference between "additional" and "replace" regarding the existing towers. While I don't have a specific cite, I believe JeffCo's position on the zoning of the existing towers is that they are grandfathered in, but only for NTSC broadcasts. JeffCo will argue that changing from NTSC broadcasts to ATSC broadcasts constitutes a change of use, which subjects the ATSC transmissions to current zoning requirements. They'd be playing with substance over form here, but we all know what place that road leads to. That's also why I believe Golden is pursuing only LCG's land via eminent domain right now. They don't need to deal with the existing towers until 2009 and really can't because of the grandfathering. I'm sure Golden will use zoning in 2009 to address the existing towers to try to achieve their goal of no towers. But they can't do that unless they successfully stop LCG now and I don't believe they can. But if Golden is successful in stopping LCG now, I wouldn't count on any flash-cut to ATSC on the existing towers in 2009.

And finally, Geof, I never intended my previous post to be interpreted along the lines of LCG may be willing to walk away from ATSC broadcasting. What I intended was that we shouldn't read too much into LCG's apparent passive approach to the situation and that they probably have a Plan B should Plan A not work out. I agree with the rest of your post except the part about transitioning to ATSC using current facitlities in 2009. It may happen, but probably not in 2009 and not without another zoning fight, per above.

Partially off the subject of the tower issue, with the purchase of KTVD by KUSA (Gannett), does anyone know if KUPN, also owned by KTVD's owners, was included in the purchase? From the FCC's TV Query page, KUPN previously petitioned the FCC to move its location from Sterling to Ft. Morgan, cease being a satellite of KTVD, and broadcast a 1000 kW digital signal on channel 23 from Ft. Morgan that effectively would cover all of metro Denver. I don't know if the LCG stations would be willing to use KUPN's tower in Ft. Morgan, but perhaps this might be their Plan B?

I would love for the stations to go black; in unison, for 15 minutes (do it during the Super Bowl). Put a black screen with whit text on their TVs that explains how this is the fate of their TV if the new tower is not built on Lookout. I promise that this would get peoples attention. This would get every news paper in the city to write a story about the towers. You may even get national coverage. (a guy can ope for an insane intrusion by the networks, can't he?)

-Matt

Excellent idea Matt - but no one has the guts to do it.

Reggie

I forgot to address one point in my previous post regarding LCG's land not being in Golden. I believe there are 3 tracts of land between Golden's boundary and LCG's land. It should be easy enough to verify that if someone wants to do some courthouse research. Anyway, that's why Golden can't annex LCG's land - it's not contiguous to its border.

LXIX, I agree with much of what you said in your last post. Your Super Bowl idea is great, although it'll never happen. I've read the out-of-town threads also. There are two differences between these other locales and Denver's situation. Some of these locales are not in the top 100 DMA's, so last July's full power requirements didn't apply to them. And the others, such as as KOAA, are making progress and have "definite" plans to go full power soon. Such is not the case for the LCG stations.

I realize this is not a retail thread. But if Ultimate is still selling NTSC TV's and not informing the public about ATSC, I stand by my previous post.

Hopefully! But, If I have my dates correct, Spaceway 1 launched in April, they started testing in October, and the rollout is just now finishing. Spaceway 2, which will provide the Denver locals launched in November.

It is possible for Denver stations to be sent via Spaceway 1, I don't believe that any specific satellite/city has been specified publiclly. Spaceway 1 has 48 licensed transponders attached to completely configurable spotbeam antennas. Currently they offer only 4 HD LIL channels per deployed city (using a total of 12 of the 48 transponders). There is a good chance we will be receiving the initial 4 HD channels from SW1, and the additional channels from SW1 or SW2. Also, SW1 was a new technological step for D*, so much of the groundbreaking that SW1 did won't be an issue since SW2 is a carbon copy. Essentially, D* rolled out 12 cities in just over 2 months, so it is still possible for a Feb. rollout in Denver. I'm eagerly awaiting their next 12 market announcement. :)
BTW, which thread does Denver D* HD LIL channel stuff belong in? Maybe we need to ask for the Comcast thread to be renamed to non-OTA?

Update on KTVD (UPN):

Got a call from my source a few minutes ago. As we all know, at noon yesterday, KTVD-DT went on the air.

I should be getting a call from their chief engineer to discuss real-world reception issues, since in the little valley they're in, they can't get their own digital channel at their current facility. If anyone wants me to ask/discuss anything specific, let me know. Obviously the lack of a Dolby Digital audio stream will be one thing I ask about. I'm also seeing the occasional dropout/pixellation - anyone else seeing this?

They don't have a HD time shifter yet. Due to the pending purchase of their station, they aren't going to make any major capital purchases (anyone wanna guess how much they said the HD time shifter would cost? If you said $300,000, you're correct! :p ) until the purchase goes through, and Gannett is able to start making those big $$$ purchases. Current estimate: May 2006 :( It doesn't sound promising that it'll happen before they move into the Speer Blvd facilities. I guess the only good news is that once there, they'll have access to the KUSA HD knowledge base. Like 'em or not, KUSA has tons of HD knowledge now with their local news, HD chopper, etc.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pretty disappointed in not getting any HD from KTVD for the rest of the TV season. At least they're finally on the air and their future with Gannett is probably pretty bright.

It's possible. But, I do know Denver was not in the initial 12 markets to be rolled out. And, that Spaceway 1 and 2 combined are supposed to support the first 24 markets.

from Directv:

"The upcoming launch of Spaceway F2 is the next major milestone in our digital/HD expansion plan and great news for those customers in many of the major markets around the country who are looking forward to receiving their local channels in digital or high-definition," said Jim Butterworth, senior vice president,Communications Systems, DIRECTV, Inc. "The satellite, and its twin, Spaceway F1, will provide the needed capacity to roll out local digital and HD in at least 24 markets this year, representing more than 45 percent of U.S. TV households."

btw., when Directv issued that press release, Spaceway 2 was scheduled to launch in June. But, was delayed until November.

But hey, I'll be more than happy if it turns out to be earlier than my May or later prediction.

dr_mal,

I'm happy with my reception of KTVD. Strong signal, and I am getting sound even if it isn't Dolby Digital. If you can, perhaps you can inquire about the PSIP info stream. As you know, the transmission does not remap to 20-1 right now.

I am located in SE Denver and am using a Samsung sir-t451 HD tuner, fed by an antenna mounted at 20' and aimed at downtown.

I can not seem to get a picture from KCNC 35. I am getting a carrier with good signal strength (8-9 bars), but I get only a gray screen, with no picture at all.

All other local HD OTA stations come in and display fine, with similar signal strength (7-9 bars).

I have tried deleting and re-adding channel 4.1 35 KCNC to my HD tuner as well as unplugging the HD tuner for one minute. Neither action has changed the symptom.

I have talked to two of the KCNC engineers and neither seems to have any idea as to what is wrong.

Any ideas?

Their towers are totally zoned 'legal' by JeffCo. The other towers are 'legal-non-conforming'. Which basically means they are legal now, but can be removed. I can't remember exactly the law on how.That's cool... but if the KWGN and KDVR towers are legal, why aren't they transmitting full power DTV signals?

KWGN's signal is by far the strongest for me in Louisville, but I recall reading it's just a tad over half power or so.

Regarding your comment, Kucharsk, that stations will not lose their licenses because they ARE broadcasting, even at low power, does not hold water with the way I look at the situation. The low power broadcasts are under STA's. STA's are temporary, will expire, as I understand it, NLT 12-31-06 including all available extensions, and do not constitute a license to broadcast on a permanent basis. If the FCC enforces the current regs and doesn't grant the LCG stations some extraordinary extentions beyond 12-31-06 to be at full power, the stations run the risk of either losing their licenses at analog shutoff or being bound and locked in to their current STA power levels, which, for all intents and purposes, is just like losing their licenses. I don't think for a minute that the FCC is going to let the LCG stations tell them what to do. It's going to be the other way around because the FCC is the boss. We're talking fines and license pulls here, not broadcasting on STA's ad finitum.When's the last time the FCC pulled any station's license?

The Denver stations can probably continue filing STAs forever because the fact remains there's nowhere for them to place the ATSC transmitters and there's no way anyone in the area is going to let them put a tower in "their backyard."

As I mentioned previously, since the FCC has shown great reluctance to get into zoning fights over placement of TV transmitters, this could go on at least through 2009 if not beyond; meanwhile the LCG stations continue to be in a better financial situation than their counterparts in other markets because they haven't had to pay for full power HD equipment yet.

I am located in SE Denver and am using a Samsung sir-t451 HD tuner, fed by an antenna mounted at 20' and aimed at downtown.

I can not seem to get a picture from KCNC 35. I am getting a carrier with good signal strength (8-9 bars), but I get only a gray screen, with no picture at all.Samsung tuners' signal meters are notorious for just displaying RF levels, not signal "quality." For example, it's trivial to get them to read full strength by attaching an antenna amp and just feeding them amplified noise.

Unfortunately, the only thing you will be able to do is play with your antenna until you can receive an actual picture from KCNC; that's what I had to do as I had much the same situation here (high "signal strength" but picture only from KUSA and KRMA.) It turned out that the direction I had originally had my antenna pointed was feeding my tuner a high level of ATSC multipath so the signal appeared strong to the Samsung but was actually next to useless when it tried to decode it.

The good news is, once you have a good picture dialed in for KCNC, excellent signals for KRMA, KUSA and KTVD come along for "free."

I was hoping someone with significantly more knowledge than myself might have some suggestions for me.

I live out near DIA and have a clear view of downtown from my house. I'm currently using a silver sensor and receive all the local HD broadcasts except (you may want to sit down for this) KMGH. With the college bowl games and Super Bowl right around the corner, I thought I'd see if anyone had any suggestions of what I could do to enhance my chances of acquiring a signal. I've considered an amplifier, but I'm not too familiar with those so if anyone has a suggestion I'd love to hear it.

I'm not looking to spend a lot of time/money for these games since I'm holding out hope that we'll receive HD locals through D* in the not too distant future.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

That's cool... but if the KWGN and KDVR towers are legal, why aren't they transmitting full power DTV signals?

KDVR's tower is legally zoned, and they are broadcasting on what was their fully authorized (by the FCC) power when the antenna was installed. Since then, the FCC has allowed TV stations to go to a full 1 Megawatt power regardless of their Height over Average Terrain, which is what limited KDVR to the power level they are at now. There is nothing that Jeffco is doing to limit their power levels, all they would have to do is get a permit and submit the RF report showing that the site would not exceed allowable RF levels.

KWGN's tower is Legal Non-conforming, and because of the height of the tower, and the other antennas on it, among other things, they were allowed by Jeffco to put on their DTV antenna as long as it met certain size restrictions. These size restrictions have limited the power levels that they can broadcast at.

I think many have forgotten that Mt. Morrison has been rezoned for a new "horizontal" tower that would be able to accommodate the LCG stations (according to Mt. Morrison's representative). So, even if Lookout Mountain is locked up in legal battles for many years, there should be a viable alternative tower soon.

Regarding Golden's attempt at seizing LCG's lands, the southeast corner of LCG's property touches the city of Golden. Not sure that this matters or not, just passing along some info.

-Wabisabi

Welcome Rex,

I'd say that you are out of luck with KMGH, I think that you are in the shadow of the Denver Skyline since KMGH broadcasts from the top of an 8 story building at the corner of Speer and Lincoln (GAKON can plot for geographic anomalies if you ask him nicely).

There is still (not much) hope that KMGH was honest when they told us they were moving to Republic plaza (where many other station broadcast from)before the Super Bowl. Unfortunately their track-record stinks. It was rumored that they would want to begin their broadcasts before the end of '05 for tax purposes.

If this move occurs, you should be able to receive their signal with your current setup, since you can receive KUSA, RMPBS and KCNC.

If I were you, I wouldn't bother changing anything and live with what you have now. If KMGH moves to RP then you will get what you are wishing for.

Cheers

Matt

Update on KTVD (UPN):

Got a call from my source a few minutes ago. As we all know, at noon yesterday, KTVD-DT went on the air.

I should be getting a call from their chief engineer to discuss real-world reception issues...If anyone wants me to ask/discuss anything specific, let me know. Obviously the lack of a Dolby Digital audio stream will be one thing I ask about. I'm also seeing the occasional dropout/pixellation - anyone else seeing this?

They don't have a HD time shifter yet. It doesn't sound promising that it'll happen before they move into the Speer Blvd facilities. I guess the only good news is that once there, they'll have access to the KUSA HD knowledge base. Like 'em or not, KUSA has tons of HD knowledge now with their local news, HD chopper, etc.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm pretty disappointed in not getting any HD from KTVD for the rest of the TV season. At least they're finally on the air and their future with Gannett is probably pretty bright.

Dr. mal,

You mean I stumbled upon them only 30 minutes after they went on-the air? Isn't dumb luck great! :D

Obviously the lack of audio for so many (myself included) would be the main question, along with when (if) KTVD will start remapping to 20 from 19. As far as your video question, I'm not sure what to tell you, because although I have yet to get a peep of sound, the video has been rock solid for me after their first couple of hours of operation.

The SD UPN programming is disappointing, but I agree with you, once they are moved in with KUSA on Speer I am very confident in HD UPN...as well as more local HD content...eventually.

As always, thanks for the update Dr. Mal.

Lastly, any ideas on when DirectTv will begin Denver locals, and what type receiver will be needed....

Spoke to a DTV tech the other day - Denver MPEG4 LIL expected April or May.

One of the new H20 receivers will be necessary - the non-DVR version is out now, the DVR version won't be available before 3Q, though since NDS has a really bad track record on delivery, I don't expect to see the new DVR until late in 2006. Too bad DTV is moving away from Tivo ...:(

I think if you get KUSA, you should try for the others. KCNC is harder because of its higher frequency (greater attenuation). KMGH, if it transmits at the same power as the others, should be similar to KCNC.
The profile just shows what's in the way of a direct line of sight to the target. Your location is on the left, the target (RP for one of the plots, Lookout for the other) is on the right. The more obstructions, the more work it would be to receive signals. But the profile doesn't mean you will or won't get signals - it just provides an indication of one of the factors that affects your ability to receive them.

Thanks. I was pretty sure I was going to go ahead and try. Although I haven't seen 9.1 or 9.2 in the last couple days, I figured I'd have better shot with an outdoor antenna pointed in the right direction over poorly positioned rabbit ears.
I'm slightly encouraged that if I can get KCNC, I should be able to get KMGH.

Can anyone recommend a good installer that knows OTA issues?

OT: Trying to help out a friend. Can someone email me (ernie.santella@comcast.net) or PM me to let me know how to do the 'address change' wink, wink, for Directv to get some HD locals from another market. - Thanks!

It's possible. But, I do know Denver was not in the initial 12 markets to be rolled out. And, that Spaceway 1 and 2 combined are supposed to support the first 24 markets.
If you read the statement carefully, it stated 24 markets this year. It's known(from other press releases) that each satellite can supply about 250 HD channels. So, 2 of them = 500 channels. So, at 10 channels per market, that's easily the top 50 markets. So, Spaceway 1 s/b able to supply 25 markets, that leaves room for Denver at #18. Yes, they'll still be working on getting Spaceway 2 into position and tested, but that won't slow down the rollout to Denver.
....jc

If I were you, I wouldn't bother changing anything and live with what you have now. If KMGH moves to RP then you will get what you are wishing for.


Thanks Matt! That's pretty much what I was expecting/planning on doing, but thought I'd see if someone with more experience had thought of other options.

I guess I'll go ahead and start holding my breath in anticipation of KMGH's more to RP. :rolleyes:

If you read the statement carefully, it stated 24 markets this year. It's known(from other press releases) that each satellite can supply about 250 HD channels. So, 2 of them = 500 channels. So, at 10 channels per market, that's easily the top 50 markets. So, Spaceway 1 s/b able to supply 25 markets, that leaves room for Denver at #18. Yes, they'll still be working on getting Spaceway 2 into position and tested, but that won't slow down the rollout to Denver.
....jc


Sooner is definitely better. Hopefully, we'll see some announcement at CES.

btw., I did read the statement carefully. I don't think they're going to get to 24 markets this year.

Dr. mal,

You mean I stumbled upon them only 30 minutes after they went on-the air? Isn't dumb luck great! :D

Obviously the lack of audio for so many (myself included) would be the main question, along with when (if) KTVD will start remapping to 20 from 19. As far as your video question, I'm not sure what to tell you, because although I have yet to get a peep of sound, the video has been rock solid for me after their first couple of hours of operation.

The SD UPN programming is disappointing, but I agree with you, once they are moved in with KUSA on Speer I am very confident in HD UPN...as well as more local HD content...eventually.

As always, thanks for the update Dr. Mal.

We must remember this is where the Rockies play their non-pay channel games. It would be nice to see them in DT if not outright HD. Gannett made an excellent purchase. If they are as aggressive with HD for KTVD as they were with KUSA, this should be great for OTA viewers. For Comcast viewers, well, don't hold your breath. We're still waiting for channel 12's three stations and TNT-HD.

For Comcast viewers, well, don't hold your breath. We're still waiting for channel 12's three stations and TNT-HD.What? No "Veronica Mars" in HD? Now I'm mad!
What's on channel 12's three stations?
I was able to catch TNT HD while on vacation in NY. A lot of Law and Order, mostly true 16:9, sometimes stretch-o-vision, but "Gladiator" looked great (even if it was cut and not OAR).
I keep bugging Comcast for Universal HD, and I still want it for the Olympics, but I wasn't as impressed with their content. I think they showed the same two movies over and over except from 2 - 5 am when they showed clips of the 2004 Olympics.

Spoke to a DTV tech the other day - Denver MPEG4 LIL expected April or May.

One of the new H20 receivers will be necessary - the non-DVR version is out now, the DVR version won't be available before 3Q, though since NDS has a really bad track record on delivery, I don't expect to see the new DVR until late in 2006. Too bad DTV is moving away from Tivo ...:(

Half right. Denver LIL April / May. HR20-250 same time frame.

Don

Channel 19-3 audio is coming through on my DTC-100, but it has a big time delay (lip-sync problem).

Don

The Home Media Center is supposed to be in the Q3-Q4 time frame. I'm hearing what Don is hearing on the HR20-250. Robert from Value Electronics mentioned end of Feb on the tivocommunity board.

Hopefully, we'll get firm dates from CES

Why the grey sidebars? Why not black like on ch. 20?
Channel 20 is a 4:3 picture - any sidebar colours you see there are an artifact of your receiver or TV. Channel 19 contains a 4:3 picture inside a 16:9 frame. Most stations will use grey sidebars in that situation to try to help avoid picture burn-in.
Shame about the lack of HD content until next spring. :mad:
Agreed.

I think many have forgotten that Mt. Morrison has been rezoned for a new "horizontal" tower that would be able to accommodate the LCG stations (according to Mt. Morrison's representative). So, even if Lookout Mountain is locked up in legal battles for many years, there should be a viable alternative tower soon.I'm not sure how bad signals from there would be shadowed by the foothills to those of us in the NW portion of the area.

For example, I receive zero signal from KBDI-DT's transmitter on Squaw, nor can anyone else roughly north of I-70 and west of US 287…

I'm not sure how bad signals from there would be shadowed by the foothills to those of us in the NW portion of the area.

For example, I receive zero signal from KBDI-DT's transmitter on Squaw, nor can anyone else roughly north of I-70 and west of US 287…
UPN 20 (analog) is on Mt. Morrison now - if you can get that channel, your odds are good for any stations located on the new Morrison structure (if it ever gets built - it's been what? 2 years? since its approval).

UPN 20 (analog) is on Mt. Morrison now - if you can get that channel, your odds are good for any stations located on the new Morrison structure (if it ever gets built - it's been what? 2 years? since its approval).I can, but the picture quality is horrid; tons of ghosting and multipath no matter which direction my antenna is pointed.

Mt Morrison is bad for many reasons. First, the big 3 need Lookout's elevation for their News truck ENG relays. Morrision would severly limit them the angles they can hit from. Second, they don't own Morrision and would have to pay rent into eternity - Why do that when you own your space on Lookout, Third, If the 'below-the-horizon' vertical tower is built there, I won't be able to receive them to west - That's the main reason. ;)

Has there been any update on Morrison? It has been a couple of years. I know one of the forces behind it, Mr. Bradly died. Is channel 6 still planning to move there?

Mt Morrison is bad for many reasons. First, the big 3 need Lookout's elevation for their News truck ENG relays. Morrision would severly limit them the angles they can hit from. Second, they don't own Morrision and would have to pay rent into eternity - Why do that when you own your space on Lookout, Third, If the 'below-the-horizon' vertical tower is built there, I won't be able to receive them to west - That's the main reason. ;)


If I recall correctly, it is the support structure that has to be below the ridgeline, but the antennas can be taller than the ridge, so you should be OK. As for the ENG relays, the base of LCG's tower will be at about 7,120 and the ENG dishes look to be on the bottom half of the tower. Mt. Morrison's tower base will be at about 7,600, so this should be a wash. As far as rent goes, I am sure whatever rent is charged will be much more than free. ;) So that is probably the main reason for not going there.

Samsung tuners' signal meters are notorious for just displaying RF levels, not signal "quality." For example, it's trivial to get them to read full strength by attaching an antenna amp and just feeding them amplified noise.

Unfortunately, the only thing you will be able to do is play with your antenna until you can receive an actual picture from KCNC; that's what I had to do as I had much the same situation here (high "signal strength" but picture only from KUSA and KRMA.) It turned out that the direction I had originally had my antenna pointed was feeding my tuner a high level of ATSC multipath so the signal appeared strong to the Samsung but was actually next to useless when it tried to decode it.

The good news is, once you have a good picture dialed in for KCNC, excellent signals for KRMA, KUSA and KTVD come along for "free."


I tried adjusting the antenna direction and I still get no picture from KCNC but good channel 9 and 6 which as you indicate are located on the same building.
I used a nice antenna program at "antennaweb"

to get the optimum azmuth of 209 degrees magnetic. I have adjusted about 45 degrees on either side of this azimuth and can find no signal the Samsung can decode.

Are you sure the LCG property is outside of the city of Golden?Yes - I'm sureI'm not quite sure how KWGN and KDVR have gotten away with broadcasting HD from Lookout to date; perhaps they got their transmitters up before JeffCo's ruling on the transmitters.…My info is from several years ago, but I don't think the zoning has changed.
KWGN tower is on land zoned Agriculture Non-Conforming.
KDVR tower is on land zoned Agriculture Special use.
The other stations land is zoned Mountain Residential 1 Non-Conforming.
KDVR and KWGN also have shorter towers and had less, certainly not insurmountable, JeffCo issues to deal with to put their digital xmitters on their existing towers. But they are still not at "full" power (whatever that is. I don't think each station has enough DTV experience to determine what "full" power is to them. They may not all chose to broadcast at 1MW)

UPN only had Veronica Mars and Kevin Hill (cancelled) in HD this season anyway. Is "Starting Over" on UPN in HD?

I am located in SE Denver and am using a Samsung sir-t451 HD tuner, fed by an antenna mounted at 20' and aimed at downtown.
I used a nice antenna program at "antennaweb"

to get the optimum azmuth of 209 degrees magnetic. I have adjusted about 45 degrees on either side of this azimuth and can find no signal the Samsung can decode.
Maybe it's just me, :p but given that Republic Plaza is in Central Denver, to have an azimuth to there of 209°, you would need to be NE of Republic Plaza. So, wouldn't you be in NE Denver? :o

Never-the-less, does your signal strength for KCNC drop to zero every second or two? While KRMA & KUSA stay steady?
....jc

Last night I received 19-1 at 86% on my 811 4X3 picture looked great and sound was good through TV speakers, I will add it to my 921 tonight and see if I get the audio out of the ol Harmon Kardon.

Last night I received 19-1 at 86% on my 811 4X3 picture looked great and sound was good through TV speakers, I will add it to my 921 tonight and see if I get the audio out of the ol Harmon Kardon.

TheBert, I hope you have better luck than I, as I still have ziltch for KTVD audio on my 921 and Yamaha amp. :(

I just got an article from HDTV Magazine (Dale Cripps publication) about the percentage of OTA viewers. This is from a survey done in December:


The New York Post ran a story today claiming that "22% of all viewers rely exclusively on over-the-air broadcasting for their television viewing". The National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) said that those figures jive with their tally as do those of the Government Accountability Office and the Consumers Union. The NAB has long complained about the "grossly inaccurate figures that have been repeatedly supplied by the Consumer Electronics Association" (CEA). CEA CEO, Gary Shapiro, has taken a hostile and accusing attitude towards the NAB over many issues raised in the HDTV movement, often to the bewilderment of the NAB.

The New York Post article cited an Associated Press poll conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs. The poll, with a margin of error of ± 3.1% was conducted December 13-15 and asked 1,006 adults nationwide, "Does your household currently subscribe to cable TV or a satellite dish service like DirecTV or the Dish network?"

Responses were as follows:

Cable TV......................... 51%
Satellite TV..................... 26%
Both.............................. 1%
Neither........................... 22%
Not sure......................... -


I would assume that Denver would be a typical city. Just gives more credence to the fact that not providing an adequate OTA broadcast would be very detrimental to the overall public. I would hope that the LCG people would make that point as they try to win their upcoming court battles.

Half right. Denver LIL April / May. HR20-250 same time frame.

Don

Maybe. :) Given the NDS/DTV track record, I wouldn't hold my breath if you are expecting a HR20-250 in the spring. The R15 was about a year late (if you believe some) or only 6 months late if you believe the "official" press releases.

That's why I'm looking at other HD DVR options.

Ron,

What can Golden do to change the non-conforming towers? Since it's been that designation for a long, long time, and they haven't done anything to change that, I guess they really don't have any power to just step-in and remove them or they would have.

From looking at the pics, I'm guessing that RP is about 200' x 100'. Does anybody have any more accurate dimensions? Also, which direction does the 'wide side' face(N, S, E, or W)? The reason for this weird post will be answered soon. :p
....jc

From looking at the pics, I'm guessing that RP is about 200' x 100'. Does anybody have any more accurate dimensions? Also, which direction does the 'wide side' face(N, S, E, or W)? The reason for this weird post will be answered soon. :p
....jcFrom Google maps, the wide sides appear to face NW and SE.
http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&lr=&q=republic+plaza&near=Denver,+CO&radius=0.0&cid=39739167,-104984167,582812141883651901&li=lmd&z=3
Use the satellite feature and zoom in.
I don't have any better dimensions - trying to estimate the dimensions assuming a height of 714', I get 180 x 120, but the aspect ratio looks higher than that in the pictures.

For those of you having problems with sound on KTVD 19-1, I stumbled upon a solution that works for me tonight. When I checked the signal on my D* 811 yesterday, I had no problem with sound. Tonight, I checked my two Accurians. No sound. I thought I might have had the mute turned on, so I hit the mute button and the mute message appeared on screen. Hit the mute button again, got the mute off message on screen and had sound. Found I have to do this each time I tune 19-1.

Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it on my D* Zenith 530 (??) and still no sound. It gives me the option for Dolby digital or PCM digital outputs, but that is the only setting available. No setting for the input. I have three other OTA receivers I could try but I am not re-wiring things just for channel 20. I think the important thing is that they are on the air in time to get their tax write-offs for 2005, they probably don't care if anyone can actually listen to their signal anyway. The taxman won't likely ask about sound quality. All the other DTV OTA channels work fine except for the mysterious KMGH people some people talk about.

Below is my information for the 4 stations broadcasting from Republic Plaza. The top two stations(KRMA & KTVD) are always received at my location, slightly more than 54 miles away. The bottom two stations(KCNC & KUSA) are a different story. KCNC is received about 1/3 of the time, and so far, KUSA, never.
http://www.panelcrafters.net/rp_plots.gif
As you can see, the radiation patterns for the top two stations are slightly more favorable. They have omni-directional antennas. The patterns for the bottom two stations are from directional antennas, but as you can see, the patterns are still favorable for me.

So, what is the real difference? Well, KTVD has the lowest ERP, but it's one of the two that I always receive. So, it's not solely the power output. The other factor to consider is the antenna height. The two stations that I always receive have the highest transmitter heights(591' & 600'). KUSA's transmitter is mounted 19' below KRMA's transmitter, and KUSA's transmitter is 16' below KRMA's.

Another note is that I have two different antennas(Winegard 8200 & CM 4228), and they both easily receive KRMA & KTVD, but don't receive KCNC & KUSA. And at slightly over 54 miles, a building 200' wide with antennas mounted on two opposite sides, would only be apart(from here) by an angle of: 0° 02' 24". The horizontal beamwidth of any antenna could easily cover that width.

So, does anyone know how the transmitters are mounted on RP? A single tower with all of the transmitters on it, or multiple towers?

I don't know how many others would benefit from a slightly higher mounting position, but I'm sure that I wouldn't be the only one. A little more power output wouldn't hurt either! After all, we are probably stuck with RP until 2009!
....jc

Try the antennas are mounted under each other..not the transmitters...

Maybe it's just me, :p but given that Republic Plaza is in Central Denver, to have an azimuth to there of 209°, you would need to be NE of Republic Plaza. So, wouldn't you be in NE Denver? :o

Never-the-less, does your signal strength for KCNC drop to zero every second or two? While KRMA & KUSA stay steady?
....jc


No, JC it's not just you. The correct azimuth quoted should have been 309 degrees. I can not type or apparently proofread, but I can set the antenna to 309 degrees. I am a blue water sailor, and general aviation pilot with a good quality hand bearing compass. The antenna is set to 309 magnetic.

The signal strength indicator shows a more or less steady 9-10 bars for KCNC 4.1/34 . It does change from 9 to 10, but the change seems somewhat random.
KRMA 6.1/18 gives a similar 9 to 10 bars. KUSA 9.1/16 gives a solid 10 bar reading.

However, when attempting to view the picture from KCNC the station identification box that appears in the upper left of the screen, blinks on about every 3 seconds. Perhaps that indicates something periodic in the signal.
When tuning to any of the other local digital stations, the ID box disappears after about 3 seconds and does not cycle.

Thanks
M

However, when attempting to view the picture from KCNC the station identification box that appears in the upper left of the screen, blinks on about every 3 seconds. Perhaps that indicates something periodic in the signal.
When tuning to any of the other local digital stations, the ID box disappears after about 3 seconds and does not cycle.
Yea, that sounds like you are getting some multipath, and that's what I was wondering about. I don't believe that you stated what type of antenna that you are using?
....jc

Yea, that sounds like you are getting some multipath, and that's what I was wondering about. I don't believe that you stated what type of antenna that you are using?
....jc



I am using a 56 element UHF/VHF/FM beam. I think it is the ChannelMaster 3019. I purchased it at Home Depot a few years ago. It is mounted on a 20' mast that is rooftop mounted, giving a total antenna height of about 30'. My GPS gives an elevation at the antenna base as 5460', so antenna altitude should be about 5490'.

M

Just for the record... Tried everything and no audio on my Dish 942 receiver for DT19.

mmason, remember rule #4, it's a game of inches. I bet if you try moving your antenna a bit, you just might get rid of the multi-path.

So, what is the real difference? ... The two stations that I always receive have the highest transmitter heights(591' & 600'). KUSA's transmitter is mounted 19' below KRMA's transmitter, and KUSA's transmitter is 16' below KRMA's.How is transmitter height measured? Obviously the relative difference between transmitters is what you're discussing, but all of the information I've seen shows that RP is 714' tall. So is the height measured against something other than ground level?

Well I locked DT19 on both of my ATSC receivers. On my Dish 811 I get 90% (ties for my strongest signal) and good DD 2.0 sound. On my LG LST-4200A I get a strong signal, but no audio. I've tinkered w/ the LG's audio options to no avail. Both receivers are set up with both a Toslink digital and 2-wire stereo audio outputs. I can't figure out why one works and the other doesn't.

BTW, the upconverted NTSC signal on DT19 gives excellent PQ. Better than my OTA analog signal and far superior to the PQ I get on my E* local for KTVD. Despite the lack of HD content, I'll be watching DT19 for any UPN programming I desire to see.

Happy New Year to all! Here's hoping 2006 is a great year for Denver DTV progress.

How is transmitter height measured? Obviously the relative difference between transmitters is what you're discussing, but all of the information I've seen shows that RP is 714' tall. So is the height measured against something other than ground level?
I was using info from 2150.com, and their info can be found here. (http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp) Their information is identical to the FCC information. The FCC category is named: HAAT - Height Above Average Terrain. Now there is also another category: AMSL - Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level. And using this category with KRMA(1,821) and KTVD(1,816) we have a 5 meter difference. However, using HAAT for these stations results in a difference of only 9'. I'm not sure who provides the original data, but it doesn't even check within itself. :confused:
....jc

Nothing will produce audio from 19-1 with my LG LST-3410a HD recorder.

For what it's worth, my Directv HR10-250 has had no trouble with the audio for 19-1

..............Happy New Year to all! Here's hoping 2006 is a great year for Denver DTV progress.

[Normal pessimistic mode OFF]

I would echo those comments, with both fingers and eyes crossed (possibly from too much New Year libation).

"Happy New Year to all! Here's hoping 2006 is a great year for Denver DTV progress."
:)


[Normal pessimistic mode back ON]

"Happy New Year to all! Here's hoping 2006 is a great year for Denver DTV progress."
:)
Ok, I'll try this!

[Pessimistic Mode=ON, Realistic Mode=ON]

What does anyone think that we'll gain in '06? What?

Ok, UPN goes HD. Ok, anything else?

New tower gets built and operational. http://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gif

LCG really cares about providing HDTV to the Denver Market.
http://www.panelcrafters.net/wtf.gif

sCARE's New Years message to all of us in the Denver area.
http://www.panelcrafters.net/moon.gif

Actually the best that I could hope for:

The RP stations boost their power a bit, go to omni-directional antennas that are 20' higher...
KMGH dumps the 'coat hanger' and moves to RP with an omni-directional antenna...
KDVR goes to an omni-directional antenna...
KWGN changes their antenna to match their published radiation pattern...
D* gets HD LIL online by March 1st...
Oh, and The City of Golden, is declared a Toxic Waste Dump, and now it is a hazzard to the towers...


Other than those things, everyone have a Happy & Prosperous New Year!
http://www.panelcrafters.net/party-smiley-020.gif

[All Modes=OFF]
....jc
Edited for clarity: 01/01/96 19:24...

mmason, remember rule #4, it's a game of inches. I bet if you try moving your antenna a bit, you just might get rid of the multi-path.[/QUOTE]


Seemed like it should have been multipath interference.
But I have moved the antenna both inches and feet and get no change in the symptom.
I moved the antenna mast all along the sides of a 2 foot by 4 foot chimney (while holding an azimuth of about 309), without ever getting a picture from KCNC 4.1/3.

Does any one have any other ideas?

Thanks
Michael

Ok, I'll try this!

[Pessimistic Mode=ON, Realistic Mode=ON]

What does anyone think that we'll gain in '06? What?

Ok, UPN goes HD. Ok, anything else?

New tower gets built and operational. http://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gif

LCG really cares about providing HDTV to the Denver Market.
http://www.panelcrafters.net/wtf.gif

sCARE's New Years message to all of us in the Denver area.
http://www.panelcrafters.net/moon.gif

Actually the best that I could hope for:

The RP stations boost their power a bit, go to omni-directional antennas that are 20' higher...
KDVR goes to an omni-directional antenna...
KWGN changes their antenna to match their published radiation pattern...


Other that those things, everyone have a Happy & Prosperous New Year!
http://www.panelcrafters.net/party-smiley-020.gif

[All Modes=OFF]
....jc

ROFLMAO
:D :) :D

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of the mysterious and largely elusive KMGH actually putting up more than a coat-hanger on the RP which would be a plus for those of us already able to get the other RP stations, but your stuff will do too!
:D :D

For the past 3 days or so I've not been able to get audio on 12.1, 12.2 or 12.3. Up until then it worked fine. Anybody else having this problem? All the other channels work fine. I emailed KBDI a few days ago but no response.

Does any one have any other ideas?
I thought that I answered this earlier? :confused:

Is someone deleting my replies? :eek:

Anyway, as you know location is everything when it comes to antennas. If you are not able(or don't want) to move from your chimney location, try a different type of antenna. Try moving from a combo VHF/UHF yagi style to a CM 4228 stacked dipole antenna. It's worth a try!
....jc

For the past 3 days or so I've not been able to get audio on 12.1, 12.2 or 12.3. Up until then it worked fine. Anybody else having this problem? All the other channels work fine. I emailed KBDI a few days ago but no response.
Well currently, I get NO reception from KBDI. I tried two different antennas, and two different receivers. Nada.

So, I can't help you! :(
....jc

Seemed like it should have been multipath interference.
But I have moved the antenna both inches and feet and get no change in the symptom.
I moved the antenna mast all along the sides of a 2 foot by 4 foot chimney (while holding an azimuth of about 309), without ever getting a picture from KCNC 4.1/3.

Does any one have any other ideas?

Thanks
Michael

I trust you also varied your azimuth in your experiments? Try up to 10 degrees plus/minus from the desired azimuth. Typically, you won't get a significant drop off in primary signal strength w/ that little variation at your distance, but it can serve to lessen the affect of multi-path signals.

If that doesn't work, barring a significant move from your chimney, your other option is an antenna change as previously suggested. The CM 4228 and Winegard PR-8800 both have relatively narrow beamwidths and high gain, which should help to defeat multi-path.

Finally, some DTV receivers are more effective than others in dealing w/ multi-path signals. For example, my LG LST-4200A does much better in dealing w/ the multi-path signal problem I have w/ KWGN, than does my Dish 811. I think it is due to the use of a 4th generation chip in the LG. There are other 4th generation receivers out there if you end up going down this path.

Good luck.

Well currently, I get NO reception from KBDI. I tried two different antennas, and two different receivers. Nada.

So, I can't help you! :(
....jc

Just after I sent this KBDI DT went off here as well - guess they are "working on it"

Well finally the Denver Post realizes what is going on:

http://www.denverpost.com/editorials/ci_3362930

Wow, I am absolutely amazed that the Post published this. I thought they were totally on sCARE's side. Maybe they've now realized that Eminent Domain Seizure and it's implications are really way more dangerous than a silly little tower!

It would be great if one of the networks would do a story about this and show the rest of the country how goofy Golden really is.

This is great to see! It looks like the tide(and public sentiment) are turning against sCARE and The toxic City of Golden. So, who will the judge side with now? :confused:

In other news, the C/S thread is buzzing now that KRDO(ABC) went HD this morning. They are also supposedly at full power. This doesn't do me any good, there's a good bit of granite blocking the path. :p
....jc

This is great to see! It looks like the tide(and public sentiment) are turning against sCARE and The toxic City of Golden. So, who will the judge side with now? :confused:

In other news, the C/S thread is buzzing now that KRDO(ABC) went HD this morning. They are also supposedly at full power. This doesn't do me any good, there's a good bit of granite blocking the path. :p
....jc

What channel are they broadcasting the HD on? Some of us can try to pick it up.

What channel are they broadcasting the HD on? Some of us can try to pick it up.Their digital frequency is 24. Let me know if you have any luck - if you can pick it up, I probably can too!

What channel are they broadcasting the HD on? Some of us can try to pick it up.
JM, I believe that they are on UHF 24, remapping as 13-1. I'd have to rotate my antenna to make an attempt, but I've never been able to get any decent signals from there(C/S), so I'm not gona waste my time!

I would have thought that if it was out there(receivable), people would know! It's been at 'full power' for a few months now!
....jc

Just gave it a quick try without success. I did try to rotate the antenna to a single spot (guessed where it should point) but didn't spend imuch time trying. I am going to use my 'other source' for the ABC HD ND/OSU game and may try various pointing angles again later.

I trust you also varied your azimuth in your experiments? Try up to 10 degrees plus/minus from the desired azimuth. Typically, you won't get a significant drop off in primary signal strength w/ that little variation at your distance, but it can serve to lessen the affect of multi-path signals.

If that doesn't work, barring a significant move from your chimney, your other option is an antenna change as previously suggested. The CM 4228 and Winegard PR-8800 both have relatively narrow beamwidths and high gain, which should help to defeat multi-path.

Finally, some DTV receivers are more effective than others in dealing w/ multi-path signals. For example, my LG LST-4200A does much better in dealing w/ the multi-path signal problem I have w/ KWGN, than does my Dish 811. I think it is due to the use of a 4th generation chip in the LG. There are other 4th generation receivers out there if you end up going down this path.

Good luck.




Yes I definitely tried it at various azimuths near 309.

This morning I moved the antenna to many locations on the nearly flat roof of my home. I could get no picture at any location from KCNC 4.1/35, but always had a good picture from KRMA 6.1/18 and KUSA 9.1/16.

Since all three stations transmit from the same downtown building, and I cannot seem to get a picture from KCNC 4.1/35, but can from the other two, I am starting to wonder if this is really multi-path interference after all.

I do not think I want to spend another $80-100 for a different antenna and coax, just to get KCNC, especially if the HD antenna locations may change to Lookout Mt in the next few years anyway.

Any other ideas about this problem?

Thanks
Michael

especially if the HD antenna locations may change to Lookout Mt in the next few years anyway.ROTFLMAO, that's a good one!!!!

Just gave it a quick try without success. I did try to rotate the antenna to a single spot (guessed where it should point) but didn't spend imuch time trying. I am going to use my 'other source' for the ABC HD ND/OSU game and may try various pointing angles again later.

I have tried numerous times over the last few months to get KRDO-DT. I don't think it is gonna happen for me. I do get channel 8 analog fairly well. Must be radiation patterns and the Plamer divide in the way. Gakon did a profile for me a while back to Cheyenne mtn. It looked like I had a shot, but I guess I'm sol. :( I would be interested to hear from anybody north of Longmont to see if there is an area out of the shadow of the Palmer divide able to receive the signal. I wonder if there are any other areas that the signal might make it over or around the Palmer divide?

It is looking like par for the course for the coat hanger people. I'm getting my usual goose egg. Superbowl here we come.

ROTFLMAO, that's a good one!!!!

Easy big fella!

"especially if the HD antenna locations may change to Lookout Mt in the next few years anyway"
5-10 years could easily be a few years, it just depends upon your perspective. 5-10 years IS a few years compared to the 50-100-infinity years it could also be if (S)CARE would get their way.
:)

(and you folks think 'I' am the pessimist)
:D

Wow, I am absolutely amazed that the Post published this. I thought they were totally on sCARE's side. Maybe they've now realized that Eminent Domain Seizure and it's implications are really way more dangerous than a silly little tower!
The public interest of providing this important medium to them far outweighs the objections of NIMBYists and late-blooming aesthetes.
Ernie, I think that it's a combination of Golden's(Toxic Waste Dump) threats of Eminent Domain abuse, and the public awareness that sCARE is trying to rip everybody off.

Finally, Deb, and her band of sCAREy little wanabe profiteers, have moved into the public limelight. Their efforts to delay our digital TV are nearing an end.
http://www.panelcrafters.net/party-smiley-020.gif
....jc

For what it's worth, my Directv HR10-250 has had no trouble with the audio for 19-1I highly suspect something is wrong in 19-1's PSIP data given that many STBs receive no audio but there are a few that do.

FWIW, not only does my HD STB not decode the audio, but there's no digital audio stream being passed out my STB's digital output, either.

Finally, Deb, and her band of sCAREy little wanabe profiteers, have moved into the public limelight. Their efforts to delay our digital TV are nearing an end.
....jcPersonally I like the phrase that the signal levels are "probably" millions of times higher than they need to be.

Well gee, "probably" is a tad unscientific and doesn't bolster her positions much, and I think even the most scientifcally moronic citizen would understand that signal levels are going to be higher across the street from the transmitter than they are say in Aurora (sheesh.)

(Gee, a light bulb is so much brighter than it needs to be if I stare at the bulb from a foot away…)

I guess for Deb the signal levels should be only that required for someone in Golden to receive a station. :rolleyes:

I just registered for this forum and this is my first post - wow - a forum devoted to OTA HD in Denver. I couldn't ask for more than that.

My first question is an easy one - to post a new topic like this, do I use the "reply" button? I don't see a "post new topic" button.

OK, here are my specific questions. I have decided to make the move to HD and get a new TV to replace my 10 year old CRT. I am leaning towards the Sony XRB 32" with the built in tuner. I have read a lot of your posts, and a person could get the impression that getting a good signal here is part art and part luck. Let me tell you my physical layout and, if you could, tell if I am likely to have issues.

I live in Park Hill, about 3.5 miles due east of downtown. My house is two story, with a fairly high pitched roof. On the peak is a fairly large UHF/VHF atenna that is probably 20 years old. The kind of TV antenna most everybody had before cable. If I were brave enough to go up there and stand next to my antenna, I am sure I would have direct line of sight to the Rebulic Plaza building only 3.5 miles away, where I understand from your posts that most HD transmitters are located.

The antenna does not rotate - it was fixed there to point to the transmitters on Lookout Mountain. However, due to my location, if you draw a straight line from my house to Lookout Mountain, that line would almost intersect Republic Plaza.

I currently have no reception issues at all for regular TV - even channel 12 is clear on my regular TV.

1) Is the antenna I have suitable for reciveing HD signals at all or is a basic UHF/VHF antenna not what is needed for HD?

2) Are there HD transmitters located in places other than Republic Plaza so that I will abosolutely need to be able to rotate my antenna?

3) Anything else I'm missing or need to know?

My first question is an easy one - to post a new topic like this, do I use the "reply" button? I don't see a "post new topic" button.
Welcome! To post a new topic, you need to be in a list of topics. Now you're in a topic! :confused:

1) Is the antenna I have suitable for reciveing HD signals at all or is a basic UHF/VHF antenna not what is needed for HD?
Yes, try what you have and see how it does. Remember: There is no such thing as an HD antenna. :p
2) Are there HD transmitters located in places other than Republic Plaza so that I will abosolutely need to be able to rotate my antenna?
If you can 'see' RP and Lookout, you're in good shape. KMGH is broadcasting from their studio, but that is supposed to change to RP. KBDI is on Squaw Mtn. Other than those 2, the rest are on RP or Lookout.
3) Anything else I'm missing or need to know?
Nope. Just try your current antenna and see what you can receive. Any problems, then post here. There's a lot of experienced people using this forum! Good Luck!
....jc

I just registered for this forum and this is my first post - wow - a forum devoted to OTA HD in Denver. I couldn't ask for more than that.

My first question is an easy one - to post a new topic like this, do I use the "reply" button? I don't see a "post new topic" button.

OK, here are my specific questions. I have decided to make the move to HD and get a new TV to replace my 10 year old CRT. I am leaning towards the Sony XRB 32" with the built in tuner. I have read a lot of your posts, and a person could get the impression that getting a good signal here is part art and part luck. Let me tell you my physical layout and, if you could, tell if I am likely to have issues.

I live in Park Hill, about 3.5 miles due east of downtown. My house is two story, with a fairly high pitched roof. On the peak is a fairly large UHF/VHF atenna that is probably 20 years old. The kind of TV antenna most everybody had before cable. If I were brave enough to go up there and stand next to my antenna, I am sure I would have direct line of sight to the Rebulic Plaza building only 3.5 miles away, where I understand from your posts that most HD transmitters are located.

The antenna does not rotate - it was fixed there to point to the transmitters on Lookout Mountain. However, due to my location, if you draw a straight line from my house to Lookout Mountain, that line would almost intersect Republic Plaza.

I currently have no reception issues at all for regular TV - even channel 12 is clear on my regular TV.

1) Is the antenna I have suitable for reciveing HD signals at all or is a basic UHF/VHF antenna not what is needed for HD?

2) Are there HD transmitters located in places other than Republic Plaza so that I will abosolutely need to be able to rotate my antenna?

3) Anything else I'm missing or need to know?
Compared to most of us, you are very well situated. There's every reason to expect that you'll be able to pick up all the major Denver DTV stations with your existing VHF/UHF antenna, with the possible exception of KMGH - but since they are moving to RP sometime soon, I wouldn't put a lot of effort into changing your setup in the meantime. There are a few minor DTV channels you may not get - KDEN-DT (shopping), KTFD (Spanish), and KWHD (religious); no big deal, none of them are high definition.

The main advice I would offer is to consider a larger set than the 32" XBR you are looking at. a 32" widescreen set has about the same picture height as a 27" traditional set. You'll be missing a lot of the benefit of High Definition without a large screen.

For those of you who use Directv equipment, their first CES press release is out. http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=799955&highlight=

This is the first I've heard of "DIRECTV Pro." And, it doesn't sound like it's the Home Media Center. Maybe it is. But, you would think they would have mentioned the networking capabilites. Otherwise, the HMC was not mentioned in the press release. We'll probably get more info by the end of the week.

Compared to most of us, you are very well situated. There's every reason to expect that you'll be able to pick up all the major Denver DTV stations with your existing VHF/UHF antenna, with the possible exception of KMGH - but since they are moving to RP sometime soon, I wouldn't put a lot of effort into changing your setup in the meantime. There are a few minor DTV channels you may not get - KDEN-DT (shopping), KTFD (Spanish), and KWHD (religious); no big deal, none of them are high definition.

The main advice I would offer is to consider a larger set than the 32" XBR you are looking at. a 32" widescreen set has about the same picture height as a 27" traditional set. You'll be missing a lot of the benefit of High Definition without a large screen.

Man this site is great. You mentioned possibly not getting DTV from KMGH. I understand their transmitter is at the station - at Speeer and Broadway - is that correct? I have also seen their equipment referred to as a coat hangar. How do the rest of you get Channel 7?

Also, this raises another question which will demonstrate how new at this I am. If I buy my new HDTV and hook up my coax cable and it turns out I can't get channel 7's digital signal for example, can I just change channels and still get their analog channel?

Man this site is great. You mentioned possibly not getting DTV from KMGH. I understand their transmitter is at the station - at Speeer and Broadway - is that correct? I have also seen their equipment referred to as a coat hangar. How do the rest of you get Channel 7?

We don't. :(


Also, this raises another question which will demonstrate how new at this I am. If I buy my new HDTV and hook up my coax cable and it turns out I can't get channel 7's digital signal for example, can I just change channels and still get their analog channel?
As long as your TV has a built in analog tuner (I would be suprised if it didn't), then you should be able to pick up the analog station just fine. Analog will be channel 7, digital will be channel 7-1.

How do the rest of you get Channel 7?

Also, this raises another question which will demonstrate how new at this I am. If I buy my new HDTV and hook up my coax cable and it turns out I can't get channel 7's digital signal for example, can I just change channels and still get their analog channel?Those that get KMGH-DT live within spitting distance of the station (and I use that term purposely ;) ) If your TV has an NTSC tuner besides the ATSC tuner, then you will be able to tune analog 7, whether or not you lock in on 7.1.

BTW, KTVD-DT has a 60 signal level for me (33 is my threshold) but I STILL can not get any audio - no how; no way. Not on my RCA DTC-100 (1st gen) nor on my Sony HD200 (2nd gen) receivers. I did notice I am getting KRDO-DT now at a 45 signal level and it has audio issues also, coming in and out continuously. I didn't even move my antenna -- it's pointing nearly perpendicular to C/S. I noticed the PSIP marks the station as KRDO-SD. I wonder -- do they change it to KRDO-HD when they have HD? What's the next thing in HD on ABC?