I have found something I haven't seen discussed here. A law was passed in 2003 that appears to make what Golden is doing illegal. It may also have a big bearing on what is happening with the LCG tower - by guaranteeing that the county can not prevent the change over of existing towers.

SENATE BILL 03-251 (Signed into law 06/06/2003)

CONCERNING A PROHIBITION ON THE USE BY LOCAL GOVERNMENTS OF
AMORTIZATION TO ELIMINATE NONCONFORMING USES OF PROPERTY.

I read it to say that local governments can not use licensing or zoning rules to push out exitsting businesses. (Same interpretation that todays Longmont Times Call paper uses for another business issue).

Is this usefull? Who should we inform? The Judge? LCG Lawyers?

Ernie, does this help in your meeting w/ the Mayor?

# MattWell I have to believe their lawyers are getting paid enough to find all the relevant statutes. It's not too likely that they're unaware of this one.

In the end, it all turns on whether sending a digital signal through the existing tower represents a change in the non-conforming use that can trigger zoning review. I wouldn't think so, but then IANAL. But I think the stations will have the upper hand politically if we get to 2009 and Golden is effectively trying to force them off the air.

Did anyone get cut outs last night on 24? The very last 4 minutes were the only part of the show that I had issues with. The rest was rock solid (signal strength was 71). I am receiving the signal via multi-path though (damn north table mtn!). :)


One or two quick little audio glitches, but for the most part no problem up here in Greeley.

Cell phone service beat the same digital vs. analog 'same-service' issue. So, television should legally be similar.

Also, what about radio? There has to be some local stations broadcasting digital radio and analog simultaneously. Nobody's doing re-zoning and shutting them down.

Just Checked...
KALC (105.9), KQMT (99.5) and KOSI (101.1) & KVOD-FM are broadcasting digital radio. Any of those on Lookout or Morrision?

Cell phone service beat the same digital vs. analog 'same-service' issue. So, television should legally be similar.

Also, what about radio? There has to be some local stations broadcasting digital radio and analog simultaneously. Nobody's doing re-zoning and shutting them down.

Just Checked...
KALC (105.9), KQMT (99.5) and KOSI (101.1) & KVOD-FM are broadcasting digital radio. Any of those on Lookout or Morrision?


According to our friends, KALC is in the same area as KWGN and KOSI is in the Lake Cedar group's area.

http://www.citymtnviews.com/AntennaMapDistance.php4

Well I have to believe their lawyers are getting paid enough to find all the relevant statutes. It's not too likely that they're unaware of this one.

In the end, it all turns on whether sending a digital signal through the existing tower represents a change in the non-conforming use that can trigger zoning review. I wouldn't think so, but then IANAL. But I think the stations will have the upper hand politically if we get to 2009 and Golden is effectively trying to force them off the air.

The existing business for each station is to broadcast television. (period)

It is the FCC (and whomever they delegate the standards to) that defines what format television is broadcast in (Analog vs digital, modulation methods, color NTSC vs B&W, MTS (stereo) vs Mono).

Was there a review when they went color? added MTS? added ClosedCaption?

What the law says is that if a business is there, you cannot change zoning to run it out of town or force it to move.

I think Golden, and for that matter JeffCo, needs to realize that they are all better off allowing LCG (eliminating some towers). Otherwise, the existing towers will remain forever.

I don't believe that (s)care is aware of this law. (or at least they don't act like it).

# Matt

Cell phone service beat the same digital vs. analog 'same-service' issue. So, television should legally be similar.

Also, what about radio? There has to be some local stations broadcasting digital radio and analog simultaneously. Nobody's doing re-zoning and shutting them down.

Just Checked...
KALC (105.9), KQMT (99.5) and KOSI (101.1) & KVOD-FM are broadcasting digital radio. Any of those on Lookout or Morrision?

Digital radio is done in-band, on-channel alongside the existing analog broadcast so the existing antennas on the towers don't need to be modified to broadcast digital radio. See http://www.ibiquity.com/technology/iboc.htm

The key thing to remember is that antennas are frequency specific. If there's no change in transmiitter frequency, there's no need to modify the antenna to switch from analog to digital. This means there's no zoning reapproval process to go through since nothing changes on the tower. The key thing that changes is an exciter in the signal path somewhere. The exciter is typically a box a few inches high in a 19" rack inside a building.

If there's no progress on the tower construction by February 2009, the LCG stations will use their existing _analog_ frequencies to broadcast DTV and thus no antenna or tower changes will be required. This would make them legally similar to adding digital to analog radio or moving from analog to digital cellular.

In my opinion anyway.

-Glen

If there's no progress on the tower construction by February 2009, the LCG stations will use their existing _analog_ frequencies to broadcast DTV and thus no antenna or tower changes will be required. This would make them legally similar to adding digital to analog radio or moving from analog to digital cellular.


To clarify things a bit:

The stations would use their analog frequencies to broadcast their DTV signals after February 2009 once they have stopped broadcasting in analog. NTSC analog and ATSC digital broadcasts cannot be done simultaneously on the same frequency the way analog and digital radio broadcasts can. Just differences in the design of the systems.

-Glen

The 'Same-Service' gamble is what Golden is betting their future on. From my letters with Bestor, the Mayor and the Communications director, they truly believe they can shut-down the existing towers at the '09 change-out.

I think they've 'screwed-the-pooch' by the prescedent that has been set by digital radio and cellular on Lookout Mt. being allowed and not being challanged for zoning violations.

Also, I've just heard that there is now a special executive meeting with their legal team this Thursday in Golden, to discuss the tower. Hmmmm? I wish I was a fly on the wall in that room!

Also, I've just heard that there is now a special executive meeting with their legal team this Thursday in Golden, to discuss the tower. Hmmmm? I wish I was a fly on the wall in that room!

Is your meeting w/ Golden before or after this "special executive" meeting? Or does this mean that your meeting is postponed? (I suppose that 'cause of your meeting is how you found out about this one).

I wish you luck in getting the truth out there.

# Matt

I wish I was a fly on the wall in that room!

Me too!

This was posted over on the Programming Forum:
DTV legislation: It may not be over yet!

Feb 27, 2006 1:57 PM
Beyond The Headlines e-newsletter

After months of squabbling, Congress finally passed a controversial budget-reconciliation bill that set a deadline for the 2009 shutdown of analog television. President Bush signed the legislation into law Feb. 8. It’s over now, right?

Well, not quite.

It seems that due to a clerical typo the House and Senate bills were not identical, as the law said it must be. The Senate version contained a 13-month subsidy for Medicare patients’ equipment, while the House provided 39 months for equipment. The final bill sent from the House to the president’s desk contained the Senate’s 13-month limit. The error, apparently the fault of a Congressional clerk, resulted in $2 billion spending difference between the two bills.

What does this have to do with DTV? Everything, since the entire DTV legislative package is contained in this $39 billion dollar spending package. If the legislation is found not to be valid, neither is the new DTV policy.

In a less contentious time, members of Congress would simply vote to fix the technicality. But since the legislation is highly controversial due to its severe spending cuts for social programs, it barely passed both bodies in the first place. Neither body wants to revisit the issue in fear that a second vote may rip the entire bill apart. Several legislators, feeling pressure from constituents, have indicated they may vote against the measure if the opportunity arises again.

Don’t expect the matter to be ignored. One taxpayer is already suing in an attempt to topple the legislation, which a court is very like to do. Congressional leaders are currently at an impasse.

http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/20060227/dtv-legislation-yet-20060226/

:eek: wow...

Ahhhh, the date is still 3 years out. I wouldn't be surprised if the stations 'flipped-the-switch' before the date anyway. By that time, the majority of viewers will be screaming for full-power DTV. Plus, if I was a station GM, I'd just want to throw the early change-out in the face of all of them.

Actually, I just checked. My meeting with Golden is scheduled for tomorrow!!!! Maybe I can give them some food for thought for their meeting.

I know this is way OT, but I'll try anyway. Did anyone ever keep an HD copy of the Athens Olympics Opening Ceremonies from 2004? Having just paid $80 for the official DVD set, in glorious 4:3 and 2 channel sound, I would really like to try to make something better. IIRC, the NBC broadcast wasn't absolutely perfect, but I do remember it being better than this DVD.
I'm asking in this forum first before starting a new thread, since it would be easier to try to work out the details locally. I didn't ask over in the Comcast thread, since there were no Comcast DVR's available back then. I'd appreciate any help anyone can offer. Thanks.

Did KWGN-DT go black during the first half of GG, or was it just my receiver? It is still out and has been for more than 3 hrs now. The rest of RP come in fine.

Everything's fine here, Ron.

No HD for Supernatural tonight. I'm sure Dave will chime in to tell us what happened.

Interesting.

I didn't watch tonight because AI sucked me into its vortex and I completely forgot about Supernatural.

No HD for Supernatural tonight. I'm sure Dave will chime in to tell us what happened.Actually, it went 4:3 about 20 minutes into Glimore Girls. :(

I have found something I haven't seen discussed here. A law was passed in 2003 that appears to make what Golden is doing illegal. It may also have a big bearing on what is happening with the LCG tower - by guaranteeing that the county can not prevent the change over of existing towers.

SENATE BILL 03-251 (Signed into law 06/06/2003)

CONCERNING A PROHIBITION ON THE USE BY LOCAL GOVERNMENTS OF
AMORTIZATION TO ELIMINATE NONCONFORMING USES OF PROPERTY.

I read it to say that local governments can not use licensing or zoning rules to push out exitsting businesses. (Same interpretation that todays Longmont Times Call paper uses for another business issue).

Is this usefull? Who should we inform? The Judge? LCG Lawyers?

# Matt

What this law did was to make amortization of non-conforming land uses illegal. This means that cities and counties can no longer set a drop-dead date by which time a legal, non-conforming use must be either changed to a conforming use, or the use must go away. Before this law was passed, Jeffco could have said (about the existing analog towers) "you have three years to find a new site for your tower, or it will be torn down.". Of course, Jeffco never used this power when it was available, and now it is no longer available.

I hope this clears things up a little bit.

-Wabisabi

Wabisabi,

What's your take on the Analog-Digital "Same-Service" issue?
With Golden not enforcing it with either cell towers and now we find out, radio stations on Lookout adding digital service to their existing facilities without Re-zoning.

Wabisabi,

What's your take on the Analog-Digital "Same-Service" issue?
With Golden not enforcing it with either cell towers and now we find out, radio stations on Lookout adding digital service to their existing facilities without Re-zoning.

I can understand the argument that Analog TV and Digital TV are not the same service, since the specific code that mentions "same service" is dealing with non-conforming uses. The intent of the code was to not allow expansion of non-conforming uses, but to still allow the TV and radio stations to replace broken or inefficient antennas with new ones. By saying "same service", the code allows the FM stations, for example, to replace their old antennas that do not meet the new exposure guidelines with newer ones of a different design (more bays, directional, etc...) instead of having to lower power or move being the only options.

I also can understand the argument that TV is TV, so the are the same service.

-Wabisabi

Good luck Ernie!

http://home.earthlink.net/~timpics/images/lnielsen.jpg

I just wanted you to know that we're all counting on you!

Last night's issue with GG and Supernatural was due to a feed issue generated by the network. Rather than have continual problems we opted to upconvert.

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

I just wanted you to know that we're all counting on you!

Classic!

Just don't call him Shirley...
;)

Last night's issue with GG and Supernatural was due to a feed issue generated by the network. Rather than have continual problems we opted to upconvert.

Dave Martinez
WB2 Colorado

As always Dave, thanks for stopping by and letting us know what happened.

Well, I just got back from my meeting with the City of Golden. I met with Sabrina Henderson; Communications Mgr. The Mayor didn’t show. Oh well, he must have been in a meeting with sCARE and the lawyers before tomorrow’s big, executive council meeting.

She was very sharp and articulate, a former newspaper reporter. My first question to her was straightforward…

“Please explain to me why removing 4 towers and buildings, replacing them with one shorter tower and building and then getting 75 acres of open space (which would be prime space at the top of the hill, not un-usable space on the steep front face) for FREE, isn’t a win-win for everybody.” Her answer was simple We just don’t want to have anymore development on the Mountain. So, of course, I asked, But isn’t less towers and buildings better for everyone than the current situation? She said absolutely, because the old towers will go away too.

Aaaaaaaah, now we’re getting to crux of the issue! The stations have all said that if LCGII fails, they will then just continue to use the old towers, buildings, everything, as is, forever. Well, they can’t do that; they’re zoned ‘Non-conforming’. They’d have to come down. Excuse me, but you forgot the first word in that description… L-e-g-a-l, Non-conforming. And then I told her about Senate Bill 03-251 and how that was signed into law in 2003. It means that the city cannot change zoning after the fact. She didn’t know about that. Well, I’m not a lawyer, but the city also believes digital is not the same as analog and the old towers must go away. How do you determine ‘same-service’? She didn’t know, but just stuck to the party line about analog being completely different. I said television is television. And maybe if they wanted to turn the tower into a Bungie-jump tower, that would be a different service. She smiled. I said, What about the cell towers and the current radio stations on Lookout Mt. that are transmitting both digital and analog for about four years, nobody is arguing with them: ‘Warning Will Robinson, ‘Same Service’ Zoning Violation! Not to get off on a tangent with this story, but I just thought of the 9New chopper. Does that transmit digitally from the chopper to their link on Lookout? Then, they would be also using their towers for both analog & digital right now. Hmmm? Back to the movie… She had no answer. I didn’t think she had thought of or had discussed digital radio and analog/digital cell transmitters. But, it must have been important, she started taking notes!

Then, she surprised me. She asked me what would I do, and did I have any suggestions that would work for both parties to solve this? I gave her the spiel about the towers being there for over 50 years, etc. And that location was picked back then because it was the best and still is. She asked me why a location like Squaw wouldn’t solve all this. And I told her all the facts why and she totally understood the ‘shadowing’ issue, but said wouldn’t that be better anyway. Well, no, because the stations need to provide similar coverage to the entire Front Range. And that the towers not only serve Golden and Denver, but the millions on the entire Front Range from Ft. Collins to Parker and Squaw can’t do that. She kept pushing the Squaw thing, and I definitely got the feeling that, this is what they would like to negotiate toward, and not have to spend another million dollars fighting the ‘same-service’ issue later in court. (Just my gut reaction)

So, I continued on about why Squaw is not a good choice. How the stations need Lookout for ENG links, and how that county didn’t want it and the families up there would fight it into oblivion just like Lookout. She kept writing all this down.

Then we chatted a bit about sCARE. She said the City doesn’t agree with them on many issues including the big one, RF/Health issues. I guess that they have to disagree with them or they look just as stupid as when sCARE says things like; “Towers cause Cancer… Build no towers near people” But then, support building a tower over on Squaw Mt. and radiating all those families. Maybe their new slogan should be “ Build no towers near people, well as long as it’s not our people”! She laughed too. I also told her that even though property values are at record highs in my neighborhood, not one of the sCARE people has ever moved off Lookout in the 10 years they have been campaigning that towers cause cancer. She laughed again. I said, in all this, worst case, everybody would just put it off for the three years, and herself, the mayor and others would most likely be retired anyway. Big laugh, I was on a roll. I said I’m at the Comedy Works all week, two drink minimum. (kiddin’)

She was very nice, the city is lucky to have her. We thanked each other for the time and I finished with I sure hope the Mayor and the City are not ‘Betting-the-farm’ on the ‘Same-service’ issue. She looked at me and I kinda’ felt like she thought the same thing. Meeting over.

Santellavision,

That was fascinating. Thanks for the thorough recap of your meeting. It's unbelievable to me that Golden is still riding the "Squaw" horse.

Can't wait to see your one-man show at ComedyWorks :D

Ernie

Good review of your meeting. I've had similar ones with bureaucrats in Fort Collins - and I hope you have better luck than I did - as I walked away thinking they understood the issues better - and instead become more resolute in pushing Marxist rules on the
community.


Many thanks
Reggie

Nice job Ernie. I see you forgot the all-important point of "dr_mal will stop his one-man boycott of Golden if you just drop the lawsuit and let the area move into the 21st century". :D

I kind of miss a certain pizza place just down the road from the office - but it's in Golden :(

Seriously, thanks for trying to educate them. I don't have much confidence that they'll pull their heads out of their tinfoil, but you never know...

Ernie
Nice job and nice report. Just for that I will give you a 'free reservation and ticket' for the upcoming HDNet tour.

It sounds like you did a great job presenting the case to her. I just don't see how anyone can make a serious case for Squaw, and the issue of line of sight for the remote news trucks etc. just has to be taken seriously. Although Golden may not care, the Jeffco folks have to know (after the Eldorado Mt. hearings), that the folks on Squaw would raise an even bigger objection if it came to them. I also don't think the 'analog is not the same as digital' case could possibly hold up in court if the stations shut off the analog and begin the digital broadcast. As long as they avoid simultaneous use from Lookout, the argument that it is the same service just has to be pretty valid. As you say, TV is TV, and the change in modulation format is mandated by the government for equivalent service, not by some station owner's whim to increase his business sales.

As for Ms. Henderson, I wouldn't read too much into her comments etc. one way or another. You never know what her agenda is/was. She could even be a (S)CARE supporter just trying to hear your 'best argument', but if we're lucky, maybe she is a common sense person who will try to help the mayor realize the error of his ways. I can't believe the Golden has so much money that they can afford to chase a losing position for years in the courts without at least some local voters becoming upset.

Nicely done, glad to see you came out alive (although I was really thinking about how I might be using you gear hear at the house, I had the cable runs all figured out). Guess I will have to wait on that one.

You never know what her agenda is/was. She could even be a (S)CARE supporter just trying to hear your 'best argument', but if we're lucky, maybe she is a common sense person who will try to help the mayor realize the error of his ways.I really can't for the life of me figure out the real question... why are they fighting it? Anybody? What does the Mayor and the city get out of this? Publicity? Is he planning on running for higher office and this is just a way to get his name in the news?

I didn't get the feeling that she or the city agree with sCARE. It was more like a symbiotic thing (Or maybe in sCARE's case a Leech) they would use each other for their own benefits.

I forgot another highlight. When I mentioned Councilman Bestor and his wild public rants on removing ALL the towers. She just cringed when I mentioned his name. And I haven't got any reply emails from him anymore. I'm guessing they put a leash on him. ;)

Ernie, very nice job. THANK YOU!

An idea: If I am not being too presumptious, could you follow up with a letter to the missing mayor, copying Sabrina, reviewing the points that you made and she (hopefully) agreed with? That way, you have in writing what the conversation was about and you and they are not relying merely on her notes and memory. I gotta believe she and the mayor would definitely review your letter. If you could get it in the mail today, they ought to have it tomorrow. Call Sabrina and tell her a letter is coming to the missing mayor.

The key question to me was the one about what would you do to resolve this issue and make it a win-win. You gave her the answers but I think in writing would carry some weight. You might consider copying Golden council members if you think that would help.

Again, way to go! And are you considering running for higher office? Your clear logic would trump any of theirs in an election!

Ernie,

Great report on your meeting. I feel that we are fortunate that they selected you since (editorial coming) you are a resident of Jeffco, are one of the most knowledgable on this forum and are level headed enough to carry on a conversation and not let your emotions get the best of you (i would not have been so civil).

A question, when the city admitted that Squaw WOULD create a giant shadow for Golden, did they say that this is acceptable to them? Are they saying that they are knowingly willing to kill all/most Golden residents reception to move the tower?

Did you ask her if she is aware that this would impact 10% to 20% of the Golden population? Is she aware that the residents who would be most at risk to loose their free TV service in Golden are the elderly (who will turn-out in droves to vote them out of office if they loose their TV service)? Are they willing to subsidize cable service to those residents who will loose their free TV?

-Matt

Great job, Ernie! Thanks for the report.

Hmmm, same service analog vs. digital. Maybe the LCG stations will be permitted to broadcast DTV from Lookout in Feb 2009 but they'll be limited to carrying a single 480i program in each DTV channel. :rolleyes:

Thanks, Ernie. Compelling story.

Question (as I'm too lazy to read/search the entire thread): whereabouts are the sCARE houses in question? If they're the same ones I can see from US6, then I would be MUCH more concerned about US6! For me, visual pollution, noise pollution and exhaust fumes would cause me infinitely more concern than the towers.

Excellent report Ernie! Thanks for this and all your work.

Here is to hoping that Golden (residents and politocos) will finally wake up and smell the MILLION$ that they are wasting to no end except to line the pockets of lawyers.

Wait a minute - Is the law firm being used a buddy of the Mayor??? An easy way to funnel public cash to them I'd think. (Sorry - it is the only reason I can see as to why they are fighting it).

# Matt

Great work, Ernie.

Building on Squaw would effectively cut off 90% of Golden's DTV reception, not 10-20%. Unless, their lawyers tell them otherwise tomorrow in their Executive meeting, I think this is now in the hands of a higher power... God, er, I mean Judge Jackson.

Did anybody realize that if Judge Jackson rules against LCG, we won't have much to talk about until February 2009!!!!

....................
Did anybody realize that if Judge Jackson rules against LCG, we won't have much to talk about until February 2009!!!!

What do you mean NOTHING? We could take at least 3 more tours 'annual' tours of HDNet before then. :D

As for motives (my apologies in advance to any lawyers in our group), but it would not be unheard of for the lawyers to recommend pursuing the case into the future even if they know its a loser. They get paid either way......

Thank you, Ernie. Very interesting read. It's good to hear that someone in Golden is willing to listen to a voice of reason and even seems to understand what you presented.

Nice job, Ernie. Even though I get my HD via cable, it's still quite interesting to follow this soap opera.

As to the 20% vs. 90%, I think LXIX was referring to the 20% who get their TV OTA. Certainly Golden would be shadowed if the tower was placed on Squaw, but a majority of the people would probably not have any idea.

Hey look what I just found in the archives... This must go back at least 50 years.

http://santellaproductions.com/dtv/einstein2.jpg

I am sorry. Gakon is correct, I meant the 10 to 20 percent that receive signals exclusively over the air. It seems that Golden is willing to pull-the-plug on these citizen (and many more who have TVs in kitchens, bedrooms etc. with no cable outlet) in order to get rid of the towers.

I cannot believe that the majority of Golden residents would allow themselves to be "denied" something that has been in place for over 50 years.


-Matt

Thanks, Ernie. Compelling story.

Question (as I'm too lazy to read/search the entire thread): whereabouts are the sCARE houses in question? If they're the same ones I can see from US6, then I would be MUCH more concerned about US6! For me, visual pollution, noise pollution and exhaust fumes would cause me infinitely more concern than the towers.CARE is Canyon Area ?? ?? Can't remember the rest. They have a website. I'd say it's mainly the Lookout Mountain area. However, I believe CARE gets involved in other foothill issues. Cyclist (bicycle riders) had an issue with putting a center line rumble strip on Golden Gate Canyon Rd. I think CARE fought for it also. The center line rumble strip is an issue for cyclist because if a driver moves to the left to pass a cyclist, the rumble strip may "scare" them back over to the right and into the cyclist.

Sorry to do this to everyone, but the folks at HDNet have contacted me and said that they have been informed that they may be doing 2 MLS games which would conflict with our tour dates and have their remote trucks on the road the original date of our tour.

I had told them that I would rather adjust the dates than miss seeing one of the trucks, so it looks like we are now re-scheduled for the 17'th with an alternate date of the 24'th. Before I again ask for a show of hands, does anyone know of any major schedule conflicts which might impact the new date?? I am hoping to avoid something where nearly everyone would want be involved (i.e. Jeffco court dates, Oscars etc.). Let me know if anyone is aware of any conflicts on either of those two nights and if we are OK, I will again ask for RSVP's for the 17'th.

Sorry about the change, but the folks at HDNet are trying their best to make sure we get the 'grand tour', and not the $0.50 tour.4/17 will work for me.

Does the 'grand tour' include any 'closet time' with the on-air HDNet staff member of your choice? ;)

Hey look what I just found in the archives... This must go back at least 50 years.

http://santellaproductions.com/dtv/einstein2.jpg

Case closed! :p

So, let's try this one more time. I don't feel like writing a new invite so I update the old one.
As I said in the earlier posts, HDNet has now suggested April 17 with an alternate date of April 24. I will start another head count. If you replied to the old dates prior to this post please PM me with a new RSVP or post it in the thread.


**SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS****

I will need a head count as close as possible for the HDNet folks so please let me know in the thread or by PM if you will be able to be at the tour. This is NOT a first come first serve event, so wait to commit until you are sure you will be there. Late RSVP's will still be accepted. No, you will not be charged with a crime if you have to back out at the last minute (although you may be required to read and report on all Jeffco hearing minutes from the past 5 years).

As a courtesy to the HDNet people we owe them a fairly accurate head count. As I have said before, any AVSforum member in the area is welcome, although if the head count gets too large we may have to plan a second night. If you want to bring a friend or family member, that is allowed, but lets try to keep it under control (i.e. don't invite 15 friends). For now, I will assume we will split into groups to fit in the various rooms. Finally, Jetlag will require a special escort, so anyone willing to help me keep an eye on him let me know.......
:eek:

***DIRECTIONS****

HDNet information can be found at
HDNet web page and address (http://hd.net/factsheet.html)

A map to the location (Colorado Studios) is located at:

Colorado Studios (http://www.coloradostudios.com/)

where you will click on "map"

Additional driving directions (once you have the address) can also be found at:

Mapquest Directions (http://www.mapquest.com/directions/)


******

Let the "latest official" headcount begin.....NOW>>>>> :)

I'm in.

Count me in. Either date is fine.

OK John, I'm in for the 17th as well.

Thank you very much.

And Good Job Ernie!

4/17 is good for me.

Either date is fine. Count on 2 attending.

Thanks again.

Maybe Ernie can invite the mayor of Golden :)

Count me in plus one for either date.

Either date works for me. I will be there

I'm in for 2.

I'll be busy with school in April, but if I have the evening off I will attend.

I'm in for 2, either date.

Count me in for either night.

I'm in for the tour

I'm in. Thanks jm.

DISH Network Launches Local TV Stations in High Definition in Denver...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=651532

Yep, KCNC, KDVR and KMGH are now available. However, Gannett owned KUSA is not as well as other Gannett owned stations in other live markets. Seems there might be an issue with the fee they want from E* to re-transmit the digital signals of their stations.

I did a quick comparison of PQ for the three we can get. I was fairly impressed. Overall the E* signal was a bit softer. Also, DD 5.1 was being passed on all three.

Because it was announced last week that *D will put the Denver HD locals up soon, I called to see if I could get one of the new dishes installed. They offered to come here and install the new 5 LNB dish and give me the new receiver (H20) for FREE - if I gave them my old HD receiver (Zenith). They wouldn't give me an exact date for the locals to go live, but just "soon".

Good deal for any of you outside the Denver area and can't get free OTA. As always, you may have to play CSR roulette - but the deal is in their computers.

I'm in for the tour, either date will work. Thanks JMartinko

And Thank You Ernie

You da man, Ernie!

John, I'll let you know closer to the date about the tour. April 17th is just about forever away for me at the moment...

Ah, what the hell...I'll just make it work. I'm in for either date.

Because it was announced last week that *D will put the Denver HD locals up soon, I called to see if I could get one of the new dishes installed. They offered to come here and install the new 5 LNB dish and give me the new receiver (H20) for FREE - if I gave them my old HD receiver (Zenith). They wouldn't give me an exact date for the locals to go live, but just "soon".

Good deal for any of you outside the Denver area and can't get free OTA. As always, you may have to play CSR roulette - but the deal is in their computers.
Mike
Thanks for the input. I sent an email to them last week and got the standard reply that I will be contacted when the switchout is available bla, bla, bla.......etc. No help at all. I will give them a call. I too have the old Zenith box upstairs and a second D* box downstairs, I wonder (anyone??) if they will replace both?

I'm not sure if they will do both, probably worth a shot. I called about the dish only because I bought the H20 myself at BB for $200 - but they had a $200 rebate so it was essentially free. But that deal ended on 2/28. I guess they are going to lease only now.

I too have the old Zenith box upstairs and a second D* box downstairs, I wonder (anyone??) if they will replace both?You can get them to replace both, from what I hear, if you surrender both old receivers and commit to another two years. But note that you won't be able to diplex your antenna with the new box/dish setup as we can now. Of course, if you're getting ALL the locals in HD via D*, you won't need an antenna and you won't frequent this thread anymore. I intend to perhaps have an A/B sitch at my patch panel to have a backup to D*.

Put me down for the HDNet tour. Thanks

---Scott

:confused:


Edit: OK, where'd the bizarre coconut post go? I guess I'm still confused... :)

You can get them to replace both, from what I hear, if you surrender both old receivers and commit to another two years. But note that you won't be able to diplex your antenna with the new box/dish setup as we can now. Of course, if you're getting ALL the locals in HD via D*, you won't need an antenna and you won't frequent this thread anymore. I intend to perhaps have an A/B sitch at my patch panel to have a backup to D*.

You will not get ALL the locals for at least a year, D* has to get 2 more birds up before they have that kind of capacity. Big 4 will be it until sometime in '07 at the soonest. I went and got an H20 while I could get it for free and own it , but OTA will be my local source for quite a while

You can get them to replace both, from what I hear, if you surrender both old receivers and commit to another two years. But note that you won't be able to diplex your antenna with the new box/dish setup as we can now. Of course, if you're getting ALL the locals in HD via D*, you won't need an antenna and you won't frequent this thread anymore. I intend to perhaps have an A/B sitch at my patch panel to have a backup to D*.

I was also previously promised to have both my H10 receivers replace for free with two H20s when the local HDs were available, plus a free install of the new dish. They told me on the phone that Denver will go live in April.

By the way, why won't we be able to diplex the OTA signal to the new H20?

By the way, why won't we be able to diplex the OTA signal to the new H20?

Frequency my friend. The new KA satellites use a portion of the UHF spectrum (or something nearing UHF). If you diplex (combine) an antenna with the satellite signal you will get tons of interference and loose sat/OTA channels.


-Matt

Frequency my friend. The new KA satellites use a portion of the UHF spectrum (or something nearing UHF). If you diplex (combine) an antenna with the satellite signal you will get tons of interference and loose sat/OTA channels.


-MattTo expand on that just a little: The new Ka/Ku system uses frequencies in the range of 250-2150 MHz, while the old D* frequencies were/are in the range of 950-1450 MHz. OTA frequencies are from 55.25-805.75 MHz, so there would be a serious issue with interfering frequencies if the OTA and D* signals were diplexed on the same cable.

Building on Squaw would effectively cut off 90% of Golden's DTV reception, not 10-20%. Unless, their lawyers tell them otherwise tomorrow in their Executive meeting, I think this is now in the hands of a higher power... God, er, I mean Judge Jackson.

Did anybody realize that if Judge Jackson rules against LCG, we won't have much to talk about until February 2009!!!!
I'm surprised that LCG hasn't latched onto the 90% cutoff. I doubt that many Golden residences know the full story.

Scott Pro,
Are you gettting any OTA reception in Conifer? I have a friend up there and he was asking.

I finally got my CM 3023 installed today. Let me tell you what a beautiful sight it is to see the 80" antenna on my room. Of course, the better sight is the signal strength of 4-1, 6-1, 7-1 and 9-1! Now if they would only show something in HD so I could actually watch it.

I can't wait for the first neighbor to say something. . . .

--Scott

Try strapping a CM3671 to your roof. Now that'll get the neighbors talking!

A 3023 is nothing... Look at John's house.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/dishfarm.jpg

With all the newbies, I had to pull out the old pic.

Hi Guys,

I finally broke down an ordered an HDTV (Arrives tomorrow!) and I have been trying to catch up on the HD content available to me by googling on the web. Of course I found this thread and have been doing a lot of reading.

I believe I fully understand the situation surround the lookout mountain tower delays, and the temporary downtown transmitter site.

I am currently a DirecTV subscriber with a DirecTivo (which I love), however, with the newly released "lease" program and upfront cost associated with getting an HDDirectv DVR I am thinking that I dont want to do business with them anymore.

So, to the point, I live in Lone Tree (and I have a couple of big cottonwood trees in front of my house blocking the view of downtown) and was wondering if anyone thinks I can recieve the HD broadcasts OTA. If so, can you suggest what type of antenna and amplifier I might need?

Thanks

OK, my turn...

The joke (i.e. Receiving Denver OTA HDTV - a "How To"):

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/images/Antennas.jpg

The reality:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/images/roof_1.JPG

2 - 24" custom painted dishes (110 & 119)
1 - 18" dish (61.5)
CM4228 on mast with rotator
Fanfare FM-2G FM antenna (on chimney)
XM antenna (other side of roof)

neighbors - schmeighbors ;)

...and JM buries my setup big time :eek:

Tim,
You forgot a pic of your new place...

http://www.santellaproductions.com/newhome.jpg

Well I just returned from my annual pilgrammage to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico (yes, another time-share sucker) and I find a lot has transpired since I left.

First, great job Ernie w/ your meeting w/ Golden's communications director and a great report back. Maybe you gave them some food for thought. But, I think everybody will just wait for Judge Jackson's decision before they make a move one way or the other.

Second, April 17th is A-OK for me for the HDNet tour. One for sure and 75% likely I'll have my better half w/ me. That is unless I can get her back to work by then.

Finally, I return to find KBDI-DT and KTVD-DT off-the-air. What's up with that?

So, to the point, I live in Lone Tree (and I have a couple of big cottonwood trees in front of my house blocking the view of downtown) and was wondering if anyone thinks I can receive the HD broadcasts OTA. If so, can you suggest what type of antenna and amplifier I might need?

Thanks

Welcome!

To begin, your HDTiVo does have a pair of over-the-air HD tuners so you can receive a broadcast using these tuners. As to the question of what will you need to get a signal, here is what I can offer.

I live near University and C-470 and receive all the major network broadcasts. I have been able to receive KMGH 7 with their old toy transmitter. I would believe that you stand a good chance of receiving all the networks (don't worry about trees) as long as there are no major obstruction between you and downtown (major meaning mountains, hills things made of granite).

I would recommend that you invest in a UHF antenna with lots of gain (I use a channel master 4228 that can be easily purchased over the web from solid signals or stark electronics). Be sure to install the antenna outside your home and as high as possible for best results (no HOA can prevent this). If spouse acceptance will not allow an outdoor antenna, put it in the attic.

Finally, I would recommend that you invest in a rotor that will work with a remote control. Antenna reception is a game of inches and you do not want to be going onto the roof every day to "tweak" the antenna. Also, when they move the towers to their permanent location, a rotor will allow you to re-aim the antenna from inside the house.

I hope that this helps, and once again welcome to the forum.

-Matt

So, to the point, I live in Lone Tree (and I have a couple of big cottonwood trees in front of my house blocking the view of downtown) and was wondering if anyone thinks I can recieve the HD broadcasts OTA. If so, can you suggest what type of antenna and amplifier I might need?

I'm far from being an OTA expert, but most of Lone Tree has excellent line of sight down to Republic Plaza. You shouldn't need an amplifier at all. My first suggestion (because it's cheap, easy, and it worked for me in Highlands Ranch, but with no trees, of course) is to try a set of rabbit ears (if you can stand having them on top of your TV). It may be somewhat taboo to suggest something so simple, but if it doesn't work, then you can try something bigger, like Jetlag's setup.

Thanks for the info, this is good news. I will report back how it goes...

I finally installed my 4228 today and ran out of time before exrtending the 30' mast but decide to hook it up anyway. Running through a 7777 preamp I get ALL the RP stations great at over 35 miles away, and the preamp doesnt overload on 2 or 31! I still need to check during the day but if it works good then I will just leave the mast collapsed which is only about 12'

Echostar is reportedly live with some of the major networks (KMGH, KCNC, KDVR). They have a compatible DVR too (I think).

Any E* subs getting these?

FWIW, I just got off the phone with D* and they are scheduled to swap out both of my HD receivers next week free of charge and replace them with two new MPEG4 receivers. They will also swap out the dish feeds with the new feeds at the same time. I had no trouble getting both receivers free for the new Denver HD channels, although I was pretty clear that my understanding was that both receivers would be replaced free of charge. Of course they want the two year commitment, but since I am an NFLST subscriber, I don't see a lot of options on that side. Hopefully they will have their HDLite upgraded to HD before the two years are up.


BTW, my backyard dish set up is no where as bad as the picture posted earlier, I took down the small black dish on the lower left of the structure and replaced it by a dual feed on one of the other dishes. I didn't really need the dual back up weather satellite picture service. Things were starting to get a bit cluttered so I thought I would give the neighbors a break. It's just in my nature to be neighborly. So obviously things in my back yard are 'nowhere near' as bad as pictured, although some of the neighbors still think I am running a CIA listening post.
:D

Mark is getting it. But, I am holding off on getting the Dish 622 and installing the new bigger Dish 1000. You need completely new hardware as they are being sent in the new MPEG4 compression. And reports are, the PQ on the HD Locals is not good, as well as the receiver is pretty buggy too. OTA is far superior. So, I'm holdin' off until they hopefully improve the PQ.

John, Let us know your results when you get it installed.

Ernie
I already get the stations OTA or from 'other sources', so I doubt I will use it much anyway, I really just wanted to get it for other reasons. One reason is that I have heard comments on other AVS threads that the NFLST channels may be in MPEG4 next fall, and I also want to be ready to go when/if Altitude and/or FSRM are picked up in HD by D* and possibly added as locals. I don't want to be sitting around the week before the first games cursing because I can't get my system swapped out for a month. I also hope the new gear will help TNTHD a bit. I have some nasty macroblocking during sports (basketball) games from the old Zenith, although I hear that is a pretty common problem so far with that feed.

I also have had strange intermittent problems with my old 3 feed system when the weather drops below about 5 deg. Several of my SD receivers lose their signal from the dish unless my main HD receiver is on one of the packaged channels (200+). Probably a bias issue of some kind on the LNB since I am loading it with 4 receivers. I am hoping the new feeds will not have that problem, although I am not holding my breath. If I still have the problem I figure I can call them up and complain about their 'new' setup and make them fix the problem.

I will report in about the new receiver operation. It should be interesting to compare D* with OTA and 'other sources' picture quality, although being more of an audio freak than video I may not be the best one for that comparison. Still my 65" Mits does clearly display many of the HDLite problems.

Mark is getting it. But, I am holding off on getting the Dish 622 and installing the new bigger Dish 1000. You need completely new hardware as they are being sent in the new MPEG4 compression. And reports are, the PQ on the HD Locals is not good, as well as the receiver is pretty buggy too. OTA is far superior. So, I'm holdin' off until they hopefully improve the PQ.


Just for clarification you dont need "all new hardware" (obviously you need a new receiver for the Mpeg4). You can still use legacy lnb's and switches. Like in your case you could just swing your 148 dish (I believe you have one of those for the CBS HD West feed, no?) to 129 and not even bother with a Dish 1000.

I have no comment on the HD Locals PQ cause I dont sub to them. I'll say one thing though on the 211 I have at the moment (the non DVR version Mpeg4 receiver), the OTA tuner blows away the one I used to run in ye old 6000. Not to mention everything else about the receiver too.. guides, graphics etc.

Just for clarification you dont need "all new hardware" (obviously you need a new receiver for the Mpeg4). You can still use legacy lnb's and switches. Like in your case you could just swing your 148 dish (I believe you have one of those for the CBS HD West feed, no?) to 129 and not even bother with a Dish 1000.

I have no comment on the HD Locals PQ cause I dont sub to them. I'll say one thing though on the 211 I have at the moment (the non DVR version Mpeg4 receiver), the OTA tuner blows away the one I used to run in ye old 6000. Not to mention everything else about the receiver too.. guides, graphics etc.


A few items...

The above dish setup is what I ended up doing. My 148 dish is now pointed at 129. This is with the new 211 receiver.

Yes, the 211 had an issue early (black screen of death with audio) but since then it has perfromed good. I also found the OTA tuner superior to the 811 I previously owned. And I agree the guide, etc. is an improvement.

As far as the PQ OTA vs E*: I had posted earlier and it is the same today...the E* signal is a bit softer but overall it is really hard to tell a difference in normal viewing. I've compared HD content on all four stations (KUSA is available as of Friday the 3rd) OTA vs E* and this is the case for all of them. I still prefer OTA but having the E* signals are a nice alternative for those days when the OTA signals are weak especially since if you get locals anyway the HD feeds are added at no extra charge. Tonight's test will be during "24" if I don't get caught up in the show and forget to do a comparison :D

I havent had any BSOD's on mine. Not sure if thats just a quirk or if it's becaue I havent run that unit very hard.. still using Comcast a lot since I have a DVR there.

One reason to sub to the HD Locals ( the 4 Networks they offer anyway) even if you wouldnt otherwise need or want them, would be in the case of the 622 since it only has one OTA tuner. Obviously if you were subbing to the HD Locals it would give you an ability to record 3 HD "Locals" at once if need be rather than just 1. But with just a 211 right now theres no need for me to sub to them.

One reason they might look softer, especially depending on ones display, is that I think I saw where a guy who can meaures E*'s bit rates and resolutions noted that the CBS and NBC feeds (the 2 1080i channels) were 1440x1080i or something like that. As they are in certain other HD Local scenarios elsewhere too. But the 1280x720p stations remain unchanged.

One reason to sub to the HD Locals ( the 4 Networks they offer anyway)

From their web site and press release Dish Network/E* is offering only 3 local HDTV stations. Are you assuming 4, or is the 4th a national feed or what?

From their web site and press release Dish Network/E* is offering only 3 local HDTV stations. Are you assuming 4, or is the 4th a national feed or what?

The original rollout lacked KUSA due to an issue with Gannett. Apparently that was resolved because it became available Friday sometime, only two days later.

The original rollout lacked KUSA due to an issue with Gannett. Apparently that was resolved because it became available Friday sometime, only two days later.


That clears it up.

They should update their website though - the locals search (as of now) still shows only the three.

So does this mean our D* CBS West HD feed is going away soon? I don't care about Fox, but it's nice when you get that extra football or basketball game. . . .

In fact, I would rather they didn't change it before the NCAA's - sometimes it feels like my only chance to watch PAC-10 games.

Maybe it is time to start writing up a waiver request then :) For D*.....It seems for me ever since ABC is on RP now most of my recpetion is worst not better :(

So does this mean our D* CBS West HD feed is going away soon? I don't care about Fox, but it's nice when you get that extra football or basketball game. . . .

In fact, I would rather they didn't change it before the NCAA's - sometimes it feels like my only chance to watch PAC-10 games.

I dont see D* turning that off for at least a year. The feed is allowed under the rule regarding the fact that KCNC is CBS O&O so offering HD LiL would not change anything. They will be moving L.A. over to mpeg4 in the future so at that time the mpeg2 feed will probably get shut down but that is well into the future.

Just for clarification you dont need "all new hardware" (obviously you need a new receiver for the Mpeg4). You can still use legacy lnb's and switches...

I stumbled across a D* channel last week (it might have been 583) that was a half-hour video for installers on how to set up the new dish and receivers. One thing it mentioned was that any couplings or connectors used had to be rated for the higher frequency range.

Sorry for the off topic post...

D* subscribers may get a chance to see the Nuggets v. Grizzlies in HD tonight on Ch. 95 at 7:00pm. This is the NBA-HD game tonight and in the past it has shown up on these so called "special event" channels in the 90's. No guarantees, but it's worth a look if you care.

I stumbled across a D* channel last week (it might have been 583) that was a half-hour video for installers on how to set up the new dish and receivers. One thing it mentioned was that any couplings or connectors used had to be rated for the higher frequency range.

Yeah in talking about DirecTv thats a whole diff deal what they're doing. I was referring to DISH where I was able to just use all the dishes/wiring/switches I've had for like 6 years when I plugged in one of their new Mpeg4 receivers.

No go on the Nuggets on 95. Sorry for the bad read.

Cool John, thanks for the heads up on using my 148 dish for 129. I will most likely just do that. I can't wait to hear your results on PQ though. I'm still an existing Beta tester for the 942, but will switch pretty soon to the 622.

And Dan, I agree, the 6000 wasn't too good at OTA reception. My 942 is night-and-day stronger.

Anyone else notice that KDEN-DT seems to have switched from Shop-At-Home to Telemundo? My Spanish is pretty weak, but they seemed to have a crawl going across the screen at one point announcing that this was their new channel.

I did notice that. I wonder what happened?

EDIT: Well, I guess I can answer my own question here. NBC bought KDEN.
http://denver.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/2006/01/16/daily35.html

Not to be too picky, but given the title of this topic is "Denver, CO OTA" can we move the discussion of D* and E* elsewhere? (Perhaps an "HD Lite" thread? :))

I think Denver OTA might be off-topic too. :rolleyes:

I think Denver OTA might be off-topic too. :rolleyes:
Touché.

I guess the HDNet tour is off topic too, so I will cancel the tour since there is no other way to contact only those AVS'rs living in this area.
;)

I know we stray off topic at times (especially some of us Old Timers), but frankly if we restrict the topic to 'only OTA' all the time the thread would disappear for months at a time. Generally those of us who stray try to keep it to a minimum, and rarely do we stray when something important really related to the OTA issue is going on. Try to be patient with us 'old folks' and our limited attention spans.
:)

I would argue that the D* and E* local channels is not totally OT since there are many here with no shot at cable or OTA reception on many channels, and at least it is an alternative for them until there is a solution on Lookout many years from now. In that sense it is at least informative as an alternative for those in areas without any local HD.

Back on topic, has anyone else seen the LCG add which shows Lookout with the old antennas and then the MT. as it would look with the new single tower. It is one of the LCG adds, but it is very different from the others and actually shows the solution proposed. It is one of the most effective adds I have seen so far. If they had run that add 3 or 4 years ago I doubt (S)CARE would have more than the 10 members living on Lookout.

Haven't seen that one yet jm, but I did see a new one showing all sorts of sports highlights that have been brought to you free, over the air, but now a small group yada yada yada.

Nice to see them mixing it up a bit.

If you wanna keep it on topic u can sum it up in about 5 or 6 sentences..

"Hey, are they broadcasting full power fromm Lookout yet, they been dickin around with it for 8 years so far?"

"Nope."

"When will they be?"

"2009"

"K, bye.. see you then"

Thread closed for now. ;)

If you wanna keep it on topic u can sum it up in about 5 or 6 sentences..

"Hey, are they broadcasting full power fromm Lookout yet, they been dickin around with it for 8 years so far?"

"Nope."

"When will they be?"

"2009"

"K, bye.. see you then"

Thread closed for now. ;)


Now that was funny.....

And sad at the same time.

A couple of times I've watched American Idol on my Dish 921 via OTA (KDVR-31DT), I've noticed that during the actual show, the center audio channel is entirely gone. The commercials are perfect, center channel and all.

Has anyone else seen this happen? I don't watch a whole lot of Fox, but I'll try to pay attention to other HD shows and see if it's pervasive amongst those.

I'm sort of wondering if it's my receiver (the 921) or my AV receiver, or KDVR, or the national American Idol broadcast or what...

Thanks in advance...
- Joe

Nothing wrong with your receiver, it's coming from Fox that way. It's 2 channel stereo this year, and Fox is not converting it to 5.1.

I guess the HDNet tour is off topic too, so I will cancel the tour since there is no other way to contact only those AVS'rs living in this area.
;)

I know we stray off topic at times (especially some of us Old Timers), but frankly if we restrict the topic to 'only OTA' all the time the thread would disappear for months at a time. Generally those of us who stray try to keep it to a minimum, and rarely do we stray when something important really related to the OTA issue is going on. Try to be patient with us 'old folks' and our limited attention spans.
:)

I would argue that the D* and E* local channels is not totally OT since there are many here with no shot at cable or OTA reception on many channels, and at least it is an alternative for them until there is a solution on Lookout many years from now. In that sense it is at least informative as an alternative for those in areas without any local HD.Well, while I understand that, it's also disconcerting to check here and read a page of posts about D* and E* and how thrilled people apparently are to pay each month for down-ressed HD. The problem of course is the more people who do that, the greater leverage LCG's opponents have (after all, the more people paying for signals via D*/E*/cable, the less of an argument can be made that broadcasting from RP is really hurting anyone.)

I enjoy the digressions as much as anyone, but the D*/E* talk here has been rather prevalent of late.

That having been said, I really, really like the new LCG ads but I don't understand why the stations haven't been running them since 2003. Perhaps <conspiracy theory>it's because there's now no way the new tower would get built before the cutover anyway so even if LCG wins in court, the stations won't have to pay to run two sets of full power transmitters.</conspiracy theory>

If that's the case, why would LCG pay for ads now?

I enjoy the digressions as much as anyone, but the D*/E* talk here has been rather prevalent of late.



I sure would rather be talking about the reception on the denver locals that I get from the antenna that I've spent way to many hours on, but the reality is that those of us up north CAN'T get any reception and being forced to find alternative ways to receive the networks in HD. Because of this forum I found a nice second home in Canada for some good HD. ;)

Today I am getting the new 5 LNB dish installed by *D so that when the locals go live, I will actually be able to see Ch 9 News in HD, etc... And hopefully someday I will be able to actually use that antenna that I've spent too many hours on to see if there is a difference between what *D is giving me and what I can get OTA.

I sure would rather be talking about the reception on the denver locals that I get from the antenna that I've spent way to many hours on, but the reality is that those of us up north CAN'T get any reception and being forced to find alternative ways to receive the networks in HD. Because of this forum I found a nice second home in Canada for some good HD. ;)

Today I am getting the new 5 LNB dish installed by *D so that when the locals go live, I will actually be able to see Ch 9 News in HD, etc... And hopefully someday I will be able to actually use that antenna that I've spent too many hours on to see if there is a difference between what *D is giving me and what I can get OTA.
Looking forward to your review

Reggie

Ok, I said I would post my luck with OTA channels in Lone Tree using an indoor set top antenna.

For reference, I live near the Lone Tree Library.

KUSA Detected by tuner, no picture/no sound
KWGN Detected by tuner, intermittently recieved picture and sound
KDVR Worked for the most part, occasional pixelation

So, Looks like I will be ordering an outdoor antenna... Perhaps the next experiment will be if the antenna works in the attic or not..

Both of my HDTVs are monitors only so I use the E* tuners to receive digital OTA. and there is a difference of what you can lock on to between the different E* receivers. It is all related as far as I am concerned.

By the way, How long does it take to go from Newbie to Old Timer?

Ok, I said I would post my luck with OTA channels in Lone Tree using an indoor set top antenna.

For reference, I live near the Lone Tree Library.

KUSA Detected by tuner, no picture/no sound
KWGN Detected by tuner, intermittently recieved picture and sound
KDVR Worked for the most part, occasional pixelation

So, Looks like I will be ordering an outdoor antenna... Perhaps the next experiment will be if the antenna works in the attic or not..

Was the indoor set top antenna you used one of those w/ a variable amplifier? Surprisingly, those can make quite a bit of difference. For me, behind a ridge line and down by a creek bed, using an RCA set top w/ variable amp on my TV at basically ground level, the amp difference was no DTV versus a useable signal from KUSA.

That showed me that DTV was receivable and I went from there to bigger, higher gain antennas (finally an AD XG91), w/ better amps (finally a CM 7775), and of course higher elevation (finally the attic).

Are the LCG ads available via the net? I'd like to see them.

By the way, How long does it take to go from Newbie to Old Timer?
1 public hearing at JeffCo, or 2 open houses at local broadcasters. At least, those are the dr_mal requirements for "old timer" certification :D

Both of my HDTVs are monitors only so I use the E* tuners to receive digital OTA. and there is a difference of what you can lock on to between the different E* receivers. It is all related as far as I am concerned.

By the way, How long does it take to go from Newbie to Old Timer?

Attendance at 2 or 3 Jeffco commissioner hearings at the Taj will bring about that change. It is the most frustrating thing you can do. Otherwise, it takes a couple of weekends on the roof with several types of antennas.
:(

Edit @ 1:14
Seems Dr_mal beat me to the punch on this, although his criteria is lower. I suppose the optimism of the early days made it take a little longer.

PS PS
I suppose a couple of letters to the FCC followed by receipt of the canned response that says (my summary) "Go find something constructive to spend your time on, we wouldn't touch that situation with a 10 ft. you knw what", also works.

Looking forward to your review

Reggie

The good news -- they called and wanted to get the install done early!!!

The bad news -- when he got here the snow was coming down too hard. We decided that getting on the snowy roof with that huge dish could wait another day. So he's coming back tomorrow... if the weather cooperates!

Are the LCG ads available via the net? I'd like to see them.

I don't think they are. But I can record the latest one, and post it online if you want.

I sure would rather be talking about the reception on the denver locals that I get from the antenna that I've spent way to many hours on, but the reality is that those of us up north CAN'T get any reception and being forced to find alternative ways to receive the networks in HD.

Or down south.

I get the LO Mountain stuff just fine. Good old fashioned analog. Yippee.


Malcolm
(not an oldtimer, only one open house attendance, and probably only about a month on my roof.)

Was the indoor set top antenna you used one of those w/ a variable amplifier? Surprisingly, those can make quite a bit of difference. For me, behind a ridge line and down by a creek bed, using an RCA set top w/ variable amp on my TV at basically ground level, the amp difference was no DTV versus a useable signal from KUSA.

That showed me that DTV was receivable and I went from there to bigger, higher gain antennas (finally an AD XG91), w/ better amps (finally a CM 7775), and of course higher elevation (finally the attic).

No, It was an unpowered UHF/VHF antenna.

Ok, I said I would post my luck with OTA channels in Lone Tree using an indoor set top antenna.

For reference, I live near the Lone Tree Library.

KUSA Detected by tuner, no picture/no sound
KWGN Detected by tuner, intermittently recieved picture and sound
KDVR Worked for the most part, occasional pixelation

So, Looks like I will be ordering an outdoor antenna... Perhaps the next experiment will be if the antenna works in the attic or not..

I suggest you give the Radio Shack Yagi a try:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family

It's small, so not too bad for attic or roof install. Only $25 bucks.

(Note: Radio Shack will not allow an assembled antenna to be returned - It's difficult to get back into the box without damage).

Scott Pro,
Are you gettting any OTA reception in Conifer? I have a friend up there and he was asking.

I sure am - I have line of sight to downtown from Conifer Mt. Have your friend call me --- I'm in the phone book.

Scott,
Thanks, I will ask him if he needs help setting up a system.

I suggest you give the Radio Shack Yagi a try:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family

It's small, so not too bad for attic or roof install. Only $25 bucks.

(Note: Radio Shack will not allow an assembled antenna to be returned - It's difficult to get back into the box without damage).


I have seen others suggest the Channel Master 4228 as well. Is it just a matter of taste or is there any reason to choose one over the other. It seems that the radio shack model is less directional than the 4228, so maybe a better choice?

I think the definition of an old timer is someone that looked at the situation 6 or 7 years ago and realized if the issues hadnt been solved by then, they werent going to be for about another 10 years from that point.

Thats because:

1) It's "only" TV and nobodies lost the ability to watch TV.

2) Due to geography of the region no other site is practical.

3) A health card was played by people that would fight tooth and nail.

4) The stations had a good excuse to delay expenditure.

5) Was going to be a long time (many years) before any appreciable percentage of the public cared about HDTV anyway.

6) At about the same time an appreciable number might start to care, they'd have the ability to get the channels from the same place they get the rest of their channels.. Cable/DBS, so they wouldnt be clamoring for OTA DTV.

7) For those that wont ever care about HDTV and only use OTA for their viewing, none of it has mattered because even if we'd have had full power DTV from Lookout for the last 8 years, the analog signals would still be beaming out anyway so they have nothing to be vocal about.

Anybody who thought those things were about to be halfway easily/quickly overcome was dreaming big time.

It's also the answer to those that ask the question "Why did the stations wait so long to run this ad campaign.. why not 5 years ago?"

The only time the public at large is going to get involved with this whole transition is when they're truly staring analog shutoff in the face. Because THAT will be big news affecting virtually everybody in one way or another. But once we get to that point it wont have mattered if the full power end of the Digital OTA side had been up and running for 10 weeks or 10 years.

I have seen others suggest the Channel Master 4228 as well. Is it just a matter of taste or is there any reason to choose one over the other. It seems that the radio shack model is less directional than the 4228, so maybe a better choice?Directional is both good and bad. Good because it helps reject reflected signal (multipath) which is one of the banes of DTV reception. Bad if the TV stations you want are in multiple locations at different compass angles, which might make it necessary to use a rotator.

In general, the further you are from downtown the smaller the compass difference between the stations on Republic Plaza and the ones on Lookout Mountain. That, combined with the higher power of the Lookout stations means that you can point a CM4228 at Republic Plaza and still get the Lookout mountain stations.

I have seen others suggest the Channel Master 4228 as well. Is it just a matter of taste or is there any reason to choose one over the other. It seems that the radio shack model is less directional than the 4228, so maybe a better choice?
If you want to try the radio shack model I'll sell you one $15, only used a month. It wasn't enough for me and I had to get the 4228 but I am way out, about 35 miles from RP

Nothing wrong with your receiver, it's coming from Fox that way. It's 2 channel stereo this year, and Fox is not converting it to 5.1.

Ah...good to know, thanks. Although, you'd think a show predicated on quality sound would ensure good sound quality!

Why did LCG even bother with the ad campaign? They've started the campaign so late in the game, it's just not going to make much of a difference anymore.

Did they do it just to piss Golden/sCARE off?

Why did LCG even bother with the ad campaign? They've started the campaign so late in the game, it's just not going to make much of a difference anymore.

Did they do it just to piss Golden/sCARE off?
Good question! Personally I think they are doing it just to keep the FCC off their butts. Also, isn't KUSA's license up for renewal this year. I know one of the stations is for sure. I suspect they are hoping to head off a bunch of complaints to the FCC from their viewers and also to buy more time without a fine. Time will tell if it works. That's just my $0.02, YMMV.

If that's the case, why would LCG pay for ads now?What "pay"? They're using ad time on their own stations, so they're just giving up one 15 second spot every so often.

I have seen others suggest the Channel Master 4228 as well. Is it just a matter of taste or is there any reason to choose one over the other. It seems that the radio shack model is less directional than the 4228, so maybe a better choice?FWIW, the RS Yagi is what I have in my attic pointed at RP from Louisville with great results.

What "pay"? They're using ad time on their own stations, so they're just giving up one 15 second spot every so often.

Well, technically they are paying. Everytime they air that ad they loose (insert local TV ad rates here), because they could have aired a real ad during those 15 seconds.

Plus, someone obviously produced it, and I'm sure they'd like a check for it too.

What "pay"? They're using ad time on their own stations, so they're just giving up one 15 second spot every so often.
Technically, they can't just "give" themselves airtime, or they'd be subject to equal time regulations and forced to "give" airtime to sCARE/Golden as well.

Even though LCG is funded by the stations, I'm almost certain LCG is paying the stations the going rate for their ad time. They'd be asking for trouble if they weren't.

Technically, they can't just "give" themselves airtime, or they'd be subject to equal time regulations and forced to "give" airtime to sCARE/Golden as well.

Even though LCG is funded by the stations, I'm almost certain LCG is paying the stations the going rate for their ad time. They'd be asking for trouble if they weren't.
[rant mode]
I agree, I am sure they have to 'pay' for the adds as the LCG group so all of the stations are sharing the cost. A small price to pay to keep the FCC and viewers off their backs, as I suspect the adds are still cheaper (divided by the 4 stations) than the cost of each one doing full power DTV from Lookout. Besides, don't you think they get the 'good customer discount' for the adds. It's a win-win situation for them. Of course had the adds run three years ago, they would likely be broadcasting both ATSC and NTSC from Lookout by now, but what the heck, as long as the stations are making more money this way. That IS the most important thing isn't it? That 'public service' for the free use of the transmit frequency stuff in the license with the FCC is realy just words for show to the public, nobody really means that stuff, right?
[/rant mode]

Would/could someone here answer this;
The Denver area is a large area, but surely not the largest, but here at AVS one wouldn't know that since it is the most visited and responded thread.

Anyone venture to guess just why is this area so popular over LA, NYC, Chicago etc??

Because LA, NYC and Chicago have OTA that generally works and there is not much to talk about!! Duh!

Well, technically they are paying. Everytime they air that ad they loose (insert local TV ad rates here), because they could have aired a real ad during those 15 seconds.

Plus, someone obviously produced it, and I'm sure they'd like a check for it too.
They aren't paying anything for air time. There's no 'equal time' that's only for political spots. This doesn't fall into that category. It's self promotion. And they all have internal promotion depts that have writer/producers that cranked out the spots. That used to be me when I was in broadcasting! They are paying for the services of the Rockford/Gray Consulting firm.

----------------

I sent a letter to Representative Rob Witwer (House District 25-Golden/Genesee) and asked his thoughts on the tower issue. First email back was just that he was aware of the issue and looking into it. Nice politically correct response. So, I then replied and asked if he was for the consolidation of the buildings/towers or for just letting everything continue just as is. I'll post his response when I get it.

They aren't paying anything for air time. There's no 'equal time' that's only for political spots. This doesn't fall into that category. It's self promotion. And they all have internal promotion depts that have writer/producers that cranked out the spots. That used to be me when I was in broadcasting! They are paying for the services of the Rockford/Gray Consulting firm.

Can't say I agree with you Ernie. The air time is lost revenue add money. Time on KUSA has got to cost more than on channel 20 for example, yet I see way more adds on KUSA than anywhere else (although that may just be a matter of timing since I don't watch any of them a lot). Since the adds benefit all of the LCG stations, they must either share the cost of the adds or have a quid pro quo (is that a legal term, thought it sounded pretty important so I used it :D ) where they each sacrifice the same amount of add revenue. If that is true I would guess channel 20 would be full time LCG adds. There has to be some money changing hands to pay for the adds, otherwise it doesn't make sense to me. I do agree though, I don't think the equal time laws would apply in this case. Just my $0.02, YMMV.

I agree 100% that airing spots is lost revenue (Especially the spots aired in Primetime and News) They are airing those to make sure their point is heard.

Overall, when I was in TV, we had plenty of open spots in the schedule. It's not like there's a waiting list to buy time. All the open spots went first to the promotion dept. And then what was left was PSA's. So, there's always spots in the schedule to air LCG spots at no cost. The reason you might see more on one station is they just have scheduled it that way. Each station is different and of course, has more or less paying advertisers for specific shows.

Again, I agree that this mess is costing them $$$$. But, I don't think any real dollars are chaning hands.

OT: If you don't want to read an off-topic post about the quality of the MPEG4 locals on Dish, just move right along...

They are much better than they were a couple of weeks ago. Still a little softer than OTA, but that's to be expected. To my eyes, they look every bit as good as CBS East or West off of 61.5 or 148 now. And, the 622 is getting to the point that it's almost stable enough to use regularly.

And, the 622 is getting to the point that it's almost stable enough to use regularly.

Thanks for the chuckle. That news would be welcome enough just coming from a beta tester if everyone was else was just waiting with baited breath for the unit to be released to the public.

But considering theres no shortage of people that have already paid between $300 and $700 to be using one in their home over the last 3 weeks, I bet to those folks it's truly welcome news indeed! ;)

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie.

Did anyone see the Channel 7 10PM news story Thursday about the super tower?

I surfed over to the station just as they said something about the tower and Golden and then the story ended. I checked their local news website but there's nothing posted

Ah crap. I was just watching 7 but I switched to 9 for some reason.

Did anyone see the Channel 7 10PM news story Thursday about the super tower?
Some never learn... It's not a 'Super-tower', it's a 'Consolidation Tower'.

Technically, they can't just "give" themselves airtime, or they'd be subject to equal time regulations and forced to "give" airtime to sCARE/Golden as well.
Uh, why?

Seriously - there is no equal time regulation. Really.

Since this is not an election issue, TV stations are no more required to air anti-LCG viewpoints than they are to give airtime to anyone else who disagrees with anything else they air.

Because LA, NYC and Chicago have OTA that generally works and there is not much to talk about!! Duh! Duh..........and thoise areas never have any problems. :rolleyes:

Next answer.

kucharsk,

Elections do have 'equal time' regulations, but this is not an election.

Uh, why?

Seriously - there is no equal time regulation. Really.

Since this is not an election issue, TV stations are no more required to air anti-LCG viewpoints than they are to give airtime to anyone else who disagrees with anything else they air.
Yeah, you're right. The commerical looked like a political commercial and smelled like a political commercial, but it's not.

I'm getting all sorts of people coming up to me asking if "those commercials" are the same issue I've been ranting about for the last couple of years. They all get it now. So the commercials are working.

So, I notice a couple of days ago that channel 19.1 (UPN 20) is gone now. It was irritating that I never received guide info for it, but apparently it was not permanent?

Anybody know if they were just testing? I was really hoping to finally get Veronica Mars in HD! :)

JP

Does anyone know when the cut in date is for requesting waiver test for our locations?

My goal of course is that not all the satellite providers have the signal up on the birds yet and I would love to stick it to the LCG stations.

Looking forward to your review

Reggie

The weather was nice enough to melt the snow on my roof and warm things up by the time the installer came yesterday - so I was able to get the new 5 LNB dish installed. The deal again was a free H20 and the new 5 LNB dish in exchange for a 2 year commitment. *D told me that they would "swap" receivers, but the installer didn't even want my old one, so I've got it if I want to add another set.

The install went great. He took down my 3 LNB and replaced it with the new GIANT 5 LNB dish. It is a big one - and heavy, I guess. This is the first dish that I have had someone else install for me, and I was real happy with the little touches that he did. He tucked a few wires for me, re-grounded them, then gave me a new multi-switch so that I can have 6 lines running into the house! He seemed to enjoy his job and giving the extra effort

So everything went great, now I just wait until DirecTv gets our locals up on the bird!

So, I notice a couple of days ago that channel 19.1 (UPN 20) is gone now. It was irritating that I never received guide info for it, but apparently it was not permanent?

Anybody know if they were just testing? I was really hoping to finally get Veronica Mars in HD! :)

JP

Yeah, I was wondering about this too. Just got a different TV with a different tuner and was afraid that my new tuner wasn't as sensitive. Glad to hear it was not a problem on my end.

Yeah, I was wondering about this too. Just got a different TV with a different tuner and was afraid that my new tuner wasn't as sensitive. Glad to hear it was not a problem on my end.Your best chance for Veronica Mars is if it gets renewed next year on the 'CW' network, which will be on channel 2. Even if 19.1 comes back, the word from other posters is that KTVD doesn't have the right equipment for HD and aren't making any major purchases until the merger shakes out.

Your best chance for Veronica Mars is if it gets renewed next year on the 'CW' network, which will be on channel 2. Even if 19.1 comes back, the word from other posters is that KTVD doesn't have the right equipment for HD and aren't making any major purchases until the merger shakes out.

I'm starting to doubt if KTVD-DT will return at all before Gannett merges them with KUSA. It seems like they have been off the air about as much as they have been on the air since the first of the year. Either way, Oxothuk is correct, our only hope of every seeing Veronica Mars in this market in HD is if the new CW network picks the show up for a third season this fall, then we will be able to get it in HD on KWGN.

Speaking of KWGN, I saw on-line the other day that all Tribune station will begin carrying a music video subchannel called "The Tube" in the next few months. Looks like a 2-2 is inevitable.

Finally, has anyone else been getting KDVR (32) at a much higher signal strength over the last 10 days to 2 weeks? Here in central Denver they are just BOOMING in now, stronger than I have ever received them before. It it just a fluke in my neighborhood, or has anyone else noticed this? Have they increased their power on Lookout Mtn.?

KDVR-DT seems to be out cold right now. But before that, I didn't think it was any stonger than it usually is.

kucharsk,

Elections do have 'equal time' regulations, but this is not an election. If Weird Al or the Wicked Witch were running for office, then that would be different.Yeah, I said that... :D

Some never learn... It's not a 'Super-tower', it's a 'Consolidation Tower'. Pardon me for using the term that the Channel 7 used in their piece.

The world rests easier knowing there are people with nothing better to do in life than 'police' forums for errors of this magnitude....... :rolleyes:

KDVR-DT seems to be out cold right now. But before that, I didn't think it was any stonger than it usually is.

I did notice that their signal was up a couple of points compared to the average I'm used to seeing.

The outage must have been caused by something major as I noted that their OTA analog signal was showing interference during the same time frame.

Didn't someone on this thread have a KTVD contact? Any word on when Channel 19 will power back up?

Didn't someone on this thread have a KTVD contact? Any word on when Channel 19 will power back up?
There were a couple of us - I think RonAuger was the other one.

I'll call on Monday and see if there's any news.

Pardon me for using the term that the Channel 7 used in their piece.

The world rests easier knowing there are people with nothing better to do in life than 'police' forums for errors of this magnitude....... :rolleyes:

The fact that an LCG station uses a term that creates the false imagery of a large metallic structure looming over Golden is highly troubling to me. That tells me they still don't want it. There's power in numbers - it could have been the power to accomplish an improvement in the Golden backdrop and give them free open space - or the power to do nothing. Of course, with the stations teamed together, none of them could be singled out as the bad guy by the FCC either, and there was no competition between them to worry about.

Thomas, my apologies.

I thought you were using that term, not KMGH. If they really did say that, their newsroom needs serious help. Everyone tries not to use it as our practice. Like mentioned above, the less use of SUPER TOWER opposed to consolidation tower, the better for all.

Did anybody find out what the KMGH story was about?

Did anybody find out what the KMGH story was about? I searched their website immediately after missing the piece. And today tried a more extensive search. The most recent search hit was something from Nov of 05.

So color me confused....

Just a note to some of the Channel 7 tower story - there is a competing story about towers for the emergency channels for police, fire and rescue etc. They have a lot of dead spots with the existing system and people are fighting the towers that they want to add. I too heard only bits and pieces about a tower story on the news and then realized that what I heard was regarding the emergency broadcast towers.

Reggie

Wouldn't that just be like sCARE. Fighting other towers that supply Emergency, Fire and Rescue Services to our community.

The emergency tower fight I saw was in SE Denver. They were using exactly the same arguments that sCARE does and I find the prperty values one interesting since IMO knowing that emergency responders had good communication in my neighborhood would increase property values far more than being able to see a tower would decrease values

Here is a link (http://search.denverpost.com/sp?aff=3&keywords=tower&searchButton=Search) to some articles that appeared in the Denver Post concerning Emergency Towers.

Did anyone listen to Colorado Exposed on 630KHOW last night? They had Kathy Hartman, (a Jeffco commissioner candidate) on. The host asked her about the tower situation, and she said since the results of the health study are inconclusive she can't really comment.

What??

That's not even the issue anymore Kathy! Plus it wasn't inconclusive.
She has no idea what's going on. I think Ernie needs to have a little chat with her.

Did anyone listen to Colorado Exposed on 630KHOW last night? They had Kathy Hartman, (a Jeffco commissioner candidate) on. The host asked her about the tower situation, and she said since the results of the health study are inconclusive she can't really comment.

What??

That's not even the issue anymore Kathy! Plus it wasn't inconclusive.
She has no idea what's going on. I think Ernie needs to have a little chat with her.

I sent Ms. Hartman an e-mail regarding her misinformation and non-position on the consolidated tower. I'll let the thread know if and how she replies. BTW, she is running unopposed! Opportunity knocks.

Because LA, NYC and Chicago have OTA that generally works and there is not much to talk about!! Duh!

Duh..........and thoise areas never have any problems. :rolleyes:

Next answer.

Of those areas, how many have most of the major networks broadcasting at 12 kW ERP - about 1% of full power? Until recently ABC was at 3kW, and blocked to the north.

Our highest power stations (WB and Fox) are still in the 200kW to 300kW range, well below thier licensed levels (1,000 kW, aka 1MW).

Most of the areas outside of the close in metro area didn't have cable HDTV locals as of 6 months ago, many still don't get them.

No stations were available on satellite (unlike LA or NY) until a week ago and only two stations are O&O's - no waivers for the others typically.

So there has been a lot of talk on how to get a 12kW station 30 miles out since there haven't been any practical or fully legal alternatives. And a lot of talk on how to fix it. And a lot of talk on how it sucks.

Did anyone listen to Colorado Exposed on 630KHOW last night? They had Kathy Hartman, (a Jeffco commissioner candidate) on. The host asked her about the tower situation, and she said since the results of the health study are inconclusive she can't really comment.

What??

That's not even the issue anymore Kathy! Plus it wasn't inconclusive.
She has no idea what's going on. I think Ernie needs to have a little chat with her.

CARE's expert has stated here that the TV stations aren't a large part of the groundlevel RF on Lookout, and the new Consolidated Tower will lower that compared to today.

Does anyone know when the cut in date is for requesting waiver test for our locations?

My goal of course is that not all the satellite providers have the signal up on the birds yet and I would love to stick it to the LCG stations.
48 days - 04/30. Of course, there are exceptions, but that's the general date.

There's probably a clause in the SHVERA babble that excludes stations that aren't at full power from the waiver process. :o

Remember, these laws are written with the consumer in mind! http://www.panelcrafters.net/rotflmao.gif
....jc

One point... a 250kW to 1000KW power change is a 6 dB increase or to put it another way.. if the station were at 1000kW and the antenna was split by a 4 way splitter the receiver would receive the same RF signal level.

Don't read too much into the 250 kW vs 1000 kW difference .. its won't have that much of an effect on reception except on the fringes... if the antenna is at the same height it might extend the signal 10 miles..

I sent an email to KMGH a couple days ago asking about that tower story, and I received a reply today. Kim Nguyen dug up the transcript. I think we already know what it's about now, but since she went to the trouble of getting it for me, I'll post it anyway.

A PROPOSED TOWER TO HELP DENVER POLICE AND FIREFIGHTERS WAS THE HOT
TOPIC OF DEBATE TONIGHT.

HUNDREDS PACKED BETHANY LUTHERAN CHURCH TONIGHT TO TALK ABOUT CITY
OFFICIALS PLANS TO PLACE A 200 FOOT TOWER IN HILLCREST TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM
OF DEAD RADIO SPOTS FOR EMERGENCY SERVICES.
BUT HAVING A 20 STORY TOWER IS NOT SOMETHING THOSE LIVING NEARBY
WANT TO SEE.

"THE RESIDENTS AND PEOPLE HAVE RIGHTS...TRY TO PERSUADE THE CITY NOT
INVASIVE TO THE NEIGHBORHOODS."

OFFICIALS WILL SPEND THE NEXT FEW MONTHS LOOKING AT OTHER POSSIBLE
LOCATIONS FOR THE TOWER.
THE NEXT MEETING IS SET FOR MAY

Yeah! Let's "stick it to the LCG stations". It's the broadcasters' fault that we don't have a supertower!

Don't you just love how the busybodies, like SCARE, can eventually make themselves the heroes, and their opponents/victims the "bad guys"? :mad:

Yeah! Let's "stick it to the LCG stations". It's the broadcasters' fault that we don't have a supertower!

Don't you just love how the busybodies, like SCARE, can eventually make themselves the heroes, and their opponents/victims the "bad guys"? :mad:
Nobody here is calling sCARE heroes.

What we're saying is that perhaps if the LCG stations had run the ads they're running now three years ago, we'd have a tower built already.

Got this off KCNC's web site:

CBS4 KCNC-DT March Madness Schedule

The following are the TV listings on CBS4 KCNC-DT for the opening rounds of the NCAA men's basketball tournament games (these high-def games may be different from those on CBS4):

THURSDAY 3/16
10:20a -- Game 1 Wichita State vs Seton Hall
12:40p -- Game 2 Marquette vs Alabama
2:55p -- Game 3 UCLA vs Belmont
5:25p -- Game 4 Illinois vs Air Force
7:45p -- Game 5 Washington vs Utah State

FRIDAY 3/17
10:25a -- Game 1 Iowa vs Northwestern State
12:45p -- Game 2 West Virginia vs Southern Illinois
5:10p -- Game 3 Pittsburgh vs Kent State
7:30p -- Game 4 Kansas vs Bradley

Anyone have any info on potential multicasting (I'm not a fan of mulitcasting except in this case) to see more than one game at a time or if different games will be carried on the analog side of the house?

OT: What's the odds that my Alma Mater is playing my wife's college is the first round? (SIU vs WVU) There's gonna' be fireworks in 'ol homestead Friday!

Here is the verbiage from a FCC document ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/policy/shvera.doc ) talking about the ATSC signal test to get HD Out Of Market networks via satellite (DirecTV/E*).

A third alternative, created by the 2004 SHVERA statute, will allow for signal testing at your household to determine if you are “served” by a digital signal over-the-air. In some cases, if you are shown to be “unserved,” you would be eligible for distant digital signals, provided you subscribe to local-into-local analog service if it is offered. However, this digital testing option is not available until April 30, 2006 (in the top 100 television markets) and July 15, 2007 (in all other television markets). In certain situations, a station may qualify for a waiver of this testing requirement for a limited period of time. In addition, your satellite carrier may refuse to arrange for the digital signal test, and in that case, you may arrange and pay for a test yourself, under the supervision of the satellite carrier. Your satellite carrier can tell you whether you are in a top 100 market and whether it will help you to arrange for a digital signal test once the testing provisions take effect in 2006 or 2007.


PS If somebody starts a Denver Satellite Locals thread, let me know. Otherwise this seems the place to talk about this.

From http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2979A1.pdf

Section 339(a)(2)(D)(viii) of the Act sets forth the criteria and the standard for the Commission’s
review of station requests for waiver. To be grantable, waiver requests must provide clear and
convincing evidence that the station's digital signal coverage is limited due to the unremediable
presence of one or more of the following:
(I) the need for international coordination or approvals;
(II) clear zoning or environmental legal impediments; There are more expections, I just included the first two.

Looks like the LCG group could try for the zoning impediment.

Later it says the first round of exemption lasts 6 months and can be renewed.

Just an update for all on the HDNet tour, I have about 25 people signed up so far. AFAIK, the date of April 17 is still a good one and all systems are go for the tour. I am OK getting sign ups after this if you are waiting on your work schedule to be known for sure. I promised I would give HDNet my final estimate on the Friday before the tour, so there is still time to update your status.

OT remarks
BTW, for those of you wondering about the D* conversion, mine was scheduled for today but is delayed. I have my dish mounted on a pole in the back yard by the fence (about 30 feet from the house). It turns out the new larger D* dish also needs a larger diameter pole than the old dish uses, so it looks like another pole in the back yard for me (I also have a Star Choice dish mounted on the older D* pole and can't take it down). So the pole/dish complex is going to get a bit more populated again. :D Fortunately D* is going to pay for the new pole installation, just as soon as Xcel etc. mark the yard safe for digging.

Sure hope the neighbors remain friendly. Just thought I would post that for anyone else planning on the upgrade who has a dish mounted on a pole and not on the house.

A third alternative, created by the 2004 SHVERA statute, will allow for signal testing at your household to determine if you are “served” by a digital signal over-the-air. In some cases, if you are shown to be “unserved,” you would be eligible for distant digital signals, provided you subscribe to local-into-local analog service if it is offered. However, this digital testing option is not available until April 30, 2006 (in the top 100 television markets) and July 15, 2007 (in all other television markets). In certain situations, a station may qualify for a waiver of this testing requirement for a limited period of time. In addition, your satellite carrier may refuse to arrange for the digital signal test, and in that case, you may arrange and pay for a test yourself, under the supervision of the satellite carrier. Your satellite carrier can tell you whether you are in a top 100 market and whether it will help you to arrange for a digital signal test once the testing provisions take effect in 2006 or 2007.Who decides what equipment will be used? Do you bring an antenna and climb up on your roof? What about apartments where you cannot use the roof or have no view towards RP or LM?

Who decides what equipment will be used? Do you bring an antenna and climb up on your roof? What about apartments where you cannot use the roof or have no view towards RP or LM?

Ernie, you had to ask didn't you? ;)

• Test antenna-The test antenna shall be either a standard half-wave dipole tuned to the center frequency of the channel being tested or a gain antenna, provided its antenna factor for the channel(s) under test has been determined. Use the antenna factor supplied by the antenna manufacturer as determined on an antenna range.

• Testing locations - At the test site, choose a minimum of five locations as close as possible to the specific site where the site's receiving antenna is located. If there is no receiving antenna at the site, choose a minimum of five locations as close as possible to a reasonable and likely spot for the antenna. The locations shall be at least three meters apart, enough so that the testing is practical. If possible, the first testing point should be chosen as the center point of a square whose corners are the four other locations. Calculate the median of the five measurements (in units of dBu) and report it as the measurement result.

• Multiple signals-If more than one signal is being measured (i.e., signals from different transmitters), use the same locations to measure each signal.

• Measurement procedure-Measurements shall be made in accordance with good engineering practice.

• Testing equipment set-up–Perform an on-site calibration of the test instrument in accordance with the manufacturer's specifications. Tune a calibrated instrument to the center of the channel being tested. Measure the integrated average power over the full 6 Mhz bandwidth of the television signal. The i.f. of the instrument must be less than 6 megahertz and the instrument must be capable of integrating over the selected i.f. Take all measurements with a horizontally polarized antenna. Use a shielded transmission line between the testing antenna and the field strength meter. Match the antenna impedance to the transmission line at all frequencies measured, and, if using an un-balanced line, employ a suitable balun. Take account of the transmission line loss for each frequency being measured.

• Weather - Do not take measurements in inclement weather or when major weather fronts are moving through the measurement area.

• Antenna elevation - When field strength is being measured for a one-story building, elevate the testing antenna to 6.1 meters (20 feet) above the ground. In situations where the field strength is being measured for a building taller than one story, elevate the testing antenna 9.1 meters (30 feet) above the ground.

• Antenna orientation - Orient the testing antenna in the direction which maximizes the value of field strength for the signal being measured. If more than one station's signal is being measured, orient the testing antenna separately for each station.

• Test Records - Written record shall be made and shall include at least the following:
1) a list of calibrated equipment used;

2) detailed description of the calibration of the measuring equipment, including field strength meters, measuring antenna, and connecting cable;

3) all factors which may affect the recorded field, such as topography, height and types of vegetation, buildings, obstacles, weather, and other local features for each spot at the measuring site;

4) a description of where the cluster measurements were made;

5) the time and date of the measurements and signature of the person making the measurements; and

6) a list of the measured value of field strength (in units of dBu and after adjustment for line loss and antenna factor) of the five readings made during the cluster measurement process, with the median value highlighted for each channel being measured.

Here is the verbiage from a FCC document ( http://www.fcc.gov/mb/policy/shvera.doc ) talking about the ATSC signal test to get HD Out Of Market networks via satellite (DirecTV/E*).



PS If somebody starts a Denver Satellite Locals thread, let me know. Otherwise this seems the place to talk about this.


You forgot to post the next paragraph:

In general, the SHVERA statute prevents a satellite carrier from offering distant digital signals if it makes local-into-local digital signals available to you unless you were receiving distant digital signals as of December 8, 2004. The statute also prevents satellite carriers from offering distant digital network programming that is aired in an earlier time zone than that in which you live unless you have a waiver from your local station that is affiliated with the same network as the station offering the earlier programming. This means, for example, if you live in California and local-into-local service is available to you and you are eligible for a distant digital signal, the satellite carrier is not permitted to provide you with a distant digital signal from New York.

Thus, according to the law, if you have E* and you did not have a distant digital waiver as of 12/8/04 you cannot get distants. If you are a Direct customer, I wouldn't count on getting a waiver since locals will be up in the next couple of months.

I just got the following email from HDTVColorado (LCG):


The Lake Cedar Group of stations is holding the second in a series of HDTV Open Houses

Highlands Ranch HDTV Open House

Tuesday March 21st 7:00 to 8:30 PM

Wetterhorn Room

Highlands Ranch Recreation Center at Northridge
8801 S. Broadway
Highlands Ranch, CO 80126

We will have updated information

Refreshments and Snacks

Please RSVP to info@hdtvcolorado.com

Come help us bring free over-the-air HDTV to all of Front Range Colorado

From http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2979A1.pdf

There are more expections, I just included the first two.

Looks like the LCG group could try for the zoning impediment.

Later it says the first round of exemption lasts 6 months and can be renewed.
While it's not easy to find, I did learn today that at least 3 Colorado stations are fighting the digital waiver requirement. And, yes, 2 of the Denver stations are using the tower fiasco as their reason. Echostar is protesting their reasons for requesting the waiver.

The stations are:
KUSA,
KWGN &
KOAA - Colorado Springs.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find the petitions from the actual stations, just Echostar's opposition. If anyone does find more info, please post it here.
....jc

Guys (and gals) we have a mission!

Next Wed, March 22, KOA 850's Mike Rosen talk show will feature the tower issue!!!! The topic will be on from 10-11am. Marv & Pete will be the guests.

They have asked me to round up the troops and call in questions and comments in support. I will be travelling home that day, but will call in if I can. I'm sure sCARE will have all their soccer mom's doing the same. So, start thinking up the tough questions!

I've got a question ..
Does the wicked witch get splinters in her crotch from her broom? (that might explain the crabbiness, not the stupidity)

Ron, you're a sick puppy.

We should start working up questions. I don't think it's a big deal to post them, as the tough questions don't have any good responses. I'll go first...

1) I live up on Lookout Mt. and property values are at all-time highs, so I don't understand why if all these NIMBY's are so concerned about towers causing cancer, why hasn't any of them moved? The same people come to all the JeffCo hearings over and over for the past 10 years. I mean, wouldn't you move as fast as you can, if you truly believed you were harming your children?

See, there really is no answer to that. It's like shooting ducks in a barrel! (No Cheney Jokes)

Guys - read today's 'letters to the (RMN) editor' entitled "Beware of radio tower escalation, Denverites". Yikes! Trespassers! Be very afraid!!!

I don't take the News. Here is the link:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/letters/article/0,2777,DRMN_23966_4544680,00.html

But the guy writing this about all the radiation probably still lives there knowing his life is in peril!!

That RMN letter sounds to me like the guy that moved next to an airport and then when air traffic increased incredulously complained! If you move next to an antenna farm, it is likely that the farm will grow. Don't like it? Don't move next to it.

I wish LCG would offer to buy peoples houses at ABOVE market value if they could prove 2 things:

1.) The house was built before the first tower went up.
2). The same person and/or family has owned the house (uninterrupted) since before the first tower was built.

My guess is they would have to buy < 10 houses!

Gosh, traffic in front of my house keeps getting worse. I guess I should try to stop the zoning change to allow that Wal-mart to go in the next street over (we all know that you have a much better chance of getting killed in an auto accident than you do of getting "RF" induced cancer). ;)

HDTVColordo.com will be having two Open houses. The one mentioned above by Dennis and this new one they just emailed me about. They asked me to pass this along. Also, when you rsvp, let them know which one will be attended.

Jefferson County HDTV Open House
Wednesday March 22nd
7:00 to 8:30 PM

Arvada Jaycees Hall
Olde Towne Arvada
5640 Yukon Street
Arvada, Colorado 80002-2446

There will have updated information, Refreshments and Snacks
Please RSVP to info@hdtvcolorado.com

I'm glad to see this thing getting more media attention, albeit a few years too late.

But yeah, I have a question:
Why are they opposed to fewer towers on Lookout Mountain?? Does Golden secretly love looking at towers? When they said they wanted to preserve their beautiful mountain backdrop did they really mean they wanted to preserve the beautiful tower farm that they secretly worship?

Actually, I might not be too far off...

Symbios,

They've all drunk the same cool-aid and truly believe that they first get the LCGII application denied, then they get ALL the existing Analog towers on both Lookout and Mt Morrision taken down. So, in their twisted minds, they win. And only the two small legally zoned towers (KDVR and the smaller KWGN) will remain.

That whole senario comes down to the issue we've been discussing, "Same-Service".

Hey Ernie,

Have you heard back from the Mayors office concerning your meeting? Have they created a canned response for allowing the radio stations to broadcast in digital (HDRADIO) or are they going to fight the radio stations and say that they violated their zoning when they made the switch to IBOC broadcasting?


-Matt

This is very interesting because I sent an email to him about 3 months ago that this would be a good topic to discuss on his show when the Governor was on....I don't think I was responsible be the tv ad's sure does help to push forward the lack of response and meddling by a judge.


Guys (and gals) we have a mission!

Next Wed, March 22, KOA 850's Mike Rosen talk show will feature the tower issue!!!! The topic will be on from 10-11am. Marv & Pete will be the guests. The wicked witch has declined (Good idea, because Rosen is the toughest interviewer I have ever heard) He would see through all her bogus arguments and shred her to ribbons in front of everybody.

They have asked me to round up the troops and call in questions and comments in support. I will be travelling home that day, but will call in if I can. I'm sure sCARE will have all their soccer mom's doing the same. So, start thinking up the tough questions!

Dennis,
Thanks for the email about the meeting in Highlands Ranch. I changed my email address recently and that's probably why I did not get an invite.
Anyway, you bet I'll be gathering neighbors up to attend the meeting.

Hope to see some of you there.

Have you heard back from the Mayors office concerning your meeting? Have they created a canned response for allowing the radio stations to broadcast in digital (HDRADIO) or are they going to fight the radio stations and say that they violated their zoning when they made the switch to IBOC broadcasting?
I asked on Friday and they responded that Digital Radio (zoning violation) is a Jefferson County problem and not a Golden problem. So, they aren't planning on doing anything.

What could be huge problem for the anti-side is that if they let Digital Radio continue and do not fight it as a 'Same-Service' zoning violation, then they are in fact, condoning or allowing Digital to be considered Same-Service. It would tough to answer to a Judge in 2009 when asked... Now, why did you allow Digital Radio to be added with no zoning violation for 5 years, but now you want to say Digital Television is different service?

Uh, don't waste my time, next case.

Thanks Ernie.

I think that if Golden's plan is to "acquire" the 65 acres from LCG that the tower is to be built on, and then gain the land that the old towers are built on, then this would throw a huge monkey wrench into their plans.

In '09 if Golden spent Millions to buy the tower land of 65 acres and are left with the old towers running in digital, the citizens of Golden should be pissed at their '06 mayor. They could have 75 acres of land at the current tower location for free.

SO I beg to differ, this will be Golden's problem too.

Another editorial in the City & Mountain News.

http://www.citymtnviews.com/AT_BigBrotherAd.php4

And, of course, they tout the availability of other sites that are just as good.....

Like this one for KYGO:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM111620.html

And, of course, they tout the availability of other sites that are just as good.....

Like this one for KYGO:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM111620.html

Funny - I guess they don't realize that the coverage area for something in the FM band can be entirely unacceptable for something in the UHF range. Too technical, I guess. :(

I have had trouble with KYGO's signal for years. I guess I now know why!!

From the SCARE mis-information site:

"Over 10 miles away, the FCC rules require notification of hospitals that could have equipment, such as that used in intensive care, which could be adversely affected by digital television. One of the LCG broadcasters recently had to notify Children's Hospital of their plans for digital TV on Lookout Mountain."


Truth is, hospitals have been "trespassing" on the television broadcast bands for years. The FCC requires all new stations to "remind" the hospitals to check their equipment for potential compatability issues before the station starts transmitting on it's LICENSED frequencies....just in case the hospital has unlicensed (i.e.: "subject to interference from licensed users") equipment on these bands.

Anyone want to take this one to the editorial pages?

REMINDER:
Wednesday, 10-11 The Mike Rosen Show KOA850 on LCGII. Call in and let 'em know the truth!

From the SCARE mis-information site:

"Over 10 miles away, the FCC rules require notification of hospitals that could have equipment, such as that used in intensive care, which could be adversely affected by digital television. One of the LCG broadcasters recently had to notify Children's Hospital of their plans for digital TV on Lookout Mountain."Cell phone usage is prohibited in hospitals as well for the same reason (potential interference.)

Want to guess whether SCARE members own and use cell phones?

According to a friend from the FCC, they all stayed on their cell-phones during the meetings :rolleyes: .

And they are WORRIED about radiation!?

Since today is the day of Precinct Caucuses, we could start a grass roots campaign to include a resolution at each one (independent of any party affiliation). The resolution should state that our elected officials at the state and federal level should pass legislation to declare that licensed digital transmissions of any broadcaster is to be considered same service as licensed analog transmissions belonging to same broadcaster.

Anyone care to word it correctly?

Whereas ....
Whereas ....
Therefore be it resolved ....

# Matt

Reminder:
Mike Rosen show
Tomorrow 10-11am KOA850.

I am in Chattanooga right now and traveling home tomorrow. I will try to call, but I'm not sure I will be able. I hope some of you guys will call in and post what happens!

I was wondering if we would ever see it, but looks like 19-1 is back on the air.

I was wondering if we would ever see it, but looks like 19-1 is back on the air.
You beat me to it! Actually I was tipped to check it by a friend who works there, they have been having problems but hopefully it will stay on this time. Now if they just had something to broadcast besides upconverted SD...

Yeah, I noticed that 19-1 was back. It is choppier than ever, with constant breakups. 17-1 has been reliable in the evenings for me, but breaks up in the day. I recently got a myhd card, it's really fun to be able to record at whim. I get to watch Letterman every afternoon now.

I remember reading some posts a ways back about how they weren't able to increase the power up on RP. If that is the case, how were they able to come up with the power to add 2 more channels. Is there some level they can't go over, but are still able to add other channels with low power requirements? I'd love to see a boost to 17-1 and 6-1.

I remember reading some posts a ways back about how they weren't able to increase the power up on RP. If that is the case, how were they able to come up with the power to add 2 more channels. Is there some level they can't go over, but are still able to add other channels with low power requirements? I'd love to see a boost to 17-1 and 6-1.Define "power."

RP was electrical power limited; that must have been worked around.

But I believe 4-1, 6-1 and 9-1 are all at the maximum permissable transmitted power level allowed from RP in no small part because the roof of RP irradiates nearby buildings including the Qwest building and the "cash register" tower…

Define "power."

RP was electrical power limited; that must have been worked around.

But I believe 4-1, 6-1 and 9-1 are all at the maximum permissable transmitted power level allowed from RP in no small part because the roof of RP irradiates nearby buildings including the Qwest building and the "cash register" tower…NYC has always had their transmitters on the highest building in the city - why is the irradiation of other buildings not a problem there?

Another 'un-biased' (cough) editorial in the City & Mountain News rag.

http://www.citymtnviews.com/AT_BigBrotherAd.php4

I notice in the picture caption they say the new "Supertower" will be "similar to Sutro tower in SF."

That is total nonsense. They are suggesting that the tower would be similar to this:

http://www.jimprice.com/sutro/

As the regulars here know, the new tower will reduce visual impact from what is there today.

Mark

Today, 850am KOA, Mike Rosen show is dedicating the 10am to 11am portion to the Lookout HDTV Tower issue.

Lookout Mountain Tower Issue

On Mike Rosen’s KOA Radio Show



Scheduled Broadcast

Wednesday, March 22, 2006

Tune-in 10:00 to 11:00 am



850 AM on your radio dial

Or listen on-line at www.koa850.com



Express your opinion and offer your support by calling the show



Studio Line 303-713-8585

I notice in the picture caption they say the new "Supertower" will be "similar to Sutro tower in SF."

That is total nonsense. They are suggesting that the tower would be similar to this:

http://www.jimprice.com/sutro/

As the regulars here know, the new tower will reduce visual impact from what is there today.

Mark

Citizens now know about power lines, chemical pollutants, and electromagnetic radiation. Harming 50,000 people in the greater Golden area will not bring 90% of viewers back to broadcast from satellite and cable.

How convienent they keep forgetting that there is no such thing as radiation poisoning. It has been proven time and time again. Plus if it is so bad, why don't they move?

These people have to be the most narrow minded people I've ever heard of. (although I'm sure there are worse ones out there).

Good, they are carrying the conversation into the 11 o'clock hour. If you aren't listening now, please tune in!

Yeah. I thought they were only going to have the one guy (Golden resident) on for the whole phone in time. He must have been on for 20 minutes.

Lines are now busy so I hope they talk to a few more reasoned people.

I think it interesting that no one from SCARE or Golden who were invited on the show, bothered to appear.

I think it interesting that no one from SCARE or Golden who were invited on the show, bothered to appear.
Clearly, they are afraid that Mike would shoot their arguments down. They know they couldn't win the battle with him. I can see why they wouldn't bother.

Got a sCARE crony on the show complaining that the towers are killing his kids. Mike Rosen asks him if the towers are killing his kids, why is he irresponsibly still living there?

The guy's brilliant response: "Why should I move - YOU move?" :rolleyes:

Good, Mike finally hung up on him. The guy could not generate a single coherent response.

sCARE guy: "What about Squaw?"
MR: Sure, in somebody's else's backyard, right?
sCARE: Well, only like 50 people. There's 5000 around Lookout Mtn.
MR: What if your mother was one of the 50 people living near Squaw? Would you change your position?
sCARE: There's 5000 people around Lookout Mountain.

disclaimer: these posts I'm making are paraphrased, but I believe I'm accurately representing the gist of the conversations.

"Ken" in Golden: Disappointed in MR's producers for not getting sCARE's POV on the show.
MR: sCARE wouldn't come on, wouldn't recommend anyone to come on.
KiG: I don't like the words "ruse" or "panicmongering"
MR: They're fair words.
KiG: The towers aren't good neighbours. They've had RF violations!
MR: Examples? Timelines?
KiG: Ask [dr_mal: I didn't catch the name]. Look it up on websites.
MR: When did you buy your house?
KiG: 10 years ago.
MR: So after the towers were already there.
KiG: Yeah, but I didn't know my garage door opener wouldn't work. My keyless entry wouldn't work due to the RF violations.
Pete: Yeah, we're aware of the RF interference up there. But it's from FM, not from TV. We recognize there are frustrations due to consumer's use of RF devices. So we've agreed to the RF monitoring and remediation situation.
Marv: We contribute less than 5% of the RF on Lookout. Even if the TV stations ALL leave, you still have the RF situation you have now. Nothing changes. If we build the new tower, the RF will improve, but it will improve only slightly because we only contribute 5% of the current RF level right now.
KiG: But for you to dismiss Golden's concerns and to use those nasty words is not fair.
Mike: I think they're fair. You're entitled to your opinion. Pete's already responded to specific concerns that were based on panicmongering. We're going to have TV signals in Denver forever. That's not going to change. Lookout is the best place, and no matter where they go, someone's going to be inconvenienced. Ken, where's a better place?
KiG: Squaw.
Mike: So in someone else's backyard. I see you get your information from only one side.
KiG: No, from both sides.
Mike: So both sides think Squaw is better? No, you're obviously getting your information from one side.
<commercial>

<back from commercial>
Mike: So we talked about the FM stations being in violation of RF. Have the TV stations ever been in violation of their RF levels?
Marv: Never.
Mike: Never?
Marv: Never. We'll hire an engineer to take RF measurements on Lookout if the new tower is built to ensure we don't create hotspots.
Mike: So it boils down to a policy dispute. A policy that affects millions of people, not just the people on Lookout Mountain who have satellite and don't care about free TV. The people on Lookout are free to move.

<end of show>

Great Show, No screwing around. Too bad sCARE wasn't in the studio to be trashed.

Based upon their lack of participation in the Mike Rosen show today, C.A.R.E. can now safely change their name to:

Canyon residents
Opposing
Whatever
Antenna
Rezoning
Denver
Sends

C.O.W.A.R.D.S.

Which is exactly what they are for being no-shows on the radio. Perhaps they were afraid of the evil RF waves their participation might generate while they hold the entire front range hostage to their pseduo scientific views.

It is ironic that I have Direct TV and I don't have HD from Denver yet and when it does arrive the last I heard it wasn't even going to be full resolution.

I wonder just how big the satellite portion that they keep quoting doesn't have HD had Dish put the channels yet?

Also it was just recently that cable in northern colorado has gotten HD locals I wonder how many cable systems around the state still don't. Kind of screws up the 85% coverage model.

I am still trying to get RP on a regular basis ha ha ha....

I hope Judge Jackson was listening!!!

Anybody know if they will replay today's broadcast later tonight? I completely forgot about the live broadcast.

Thanks,
Glen

Here's Hour Two. I didn't get the first hour because, well, the thought of recording the show didn't occur to me until hour two. But if you're reading this thread right now, you probably don't need to hear hour one, as you should know all of the facts already.

The Mike Rosen Show Hour 2 (Runtime 26:42):

Broadband Version (http://users.wbecin.net/mttrails/AVS/PeteMarv%20-%20MikeRosen%20Hour%202%20High%20Quality.mp3) 12.2MB
(CD Quality)

Dial-Up Version (http://users.wbecin.net/mttrails/AVS/PeteMarv%20-%20MikeRosen%20Hour%202%2056k%20Low%20Quality.mp3) 3.05MB
(AM Radio Quality)

EDIT 3/30: I have removed the files from my server as they were taking up too much space. But if you want to hear the show, just let me know and I can temporarily put them back up on the server for you.

Definitely interesting. I tried to call in, but it was always busy. I thought one of the Golden callers (maybe the one Dennis referred to) was pretty reasonable - he might have just gotten a little defensive talking with Mike - also he may not have understood that there's not just a mandate to switch from analog to digital, but also to just provide OTA. Also "Chris" from Highlands Ranch sounded like one of the guys at the Open House last night. Pete and Marv did pretty well. I wonder if Mike will write a column about this.

<end of show>And I was next on the line, beleive it or not. No matter. It wouldn't have been any fun without Deb or the Golden Mayor in the studio.

They only took 4-5 callers in the 1:44:00 the show ran. It was obviously the Marv and Pete show from the start. It's not surprising, with Mike Rosen's obvious bias toward the LCG, that all opposition would decline to be on. They can always claim they didn't want to lend any credence to an LCG "commercial".

Marv and Pete were again very courteous while being professional and factual (as they always have been). We've been critical of the stations not trying hard enough in the past, but with those commercials airing now and this show, it looks like that's changing. I can't wait to see what they come up with next! I personally would like to see a WWF smackdown with Marv/Pete against Deb/Al!

One thing Marv mentioned last night, that I didn't think was true, was that Comcast and the satellite providers get their local signals OTA as well - that there's not a direct feed from the station to those providers. I thought that at least Comcast had a direct feed from one of the locals (I remember reading that about KMGH), if not all. Anyone know the facts here?

Forgot to ask, did anyone here get on the air? I didn't even bother calling in, because Pete and Marv pretty much covered everything.

I can't wait to see what they come up with next! I personally would like to see a WWF smackdown with Marv/Pete against Deb/Al!Not to steal anyone's thunder, but I mentioned at the Open House that they ought to start making a bigger deal about the money that Golden is wasting in this fight. They made that point a few times today, but it needs to be targeted at Golden, so that all of the folks not directly involved can see what's being spent.

One thing Marv mentioned last night, that I didn't think was true, was that Comcast and the satellite providers get their local signals OTA as well - that there's not a direct feed from the station to those providers. I thought that at least Comcast had a direct feed from one of the locals (I remember reading that about KMGH), if not all. Anyone know the facts here?

I dont know the answer and I also thought they embellished a lilttle bit today wheh talking about the difference between tv owners getting the signal OTA vs cable/satellite. Ceratinly with cable at least, the word to describe the dfference should not be anything like "big", "large" "substantial" or anything like that. It's basically the same difference at this point. At least to my eyes.

Now with satellite there is a perceivable, but again not "big" or "huge" difference on E* right now.. and I imagine there will be with D* also. To me using words like that is better served when discussing simply the diff between HD and SD.. not the difference where one is a little bit softer than the other when doing an A/B test.

I'm not making a big deal out of it, just sayin. But the bottomline is overall I thought it was a great show for the cause. Not that I think it'll make any difference, but very entertaining none the less.

One thing Marv mentioned last night, that I didn't think was true, was that Comcast and the satellite providers get their local signals OTA as well - that there's not a direct feed from the station to those providers. I thought that at least Comcast had a direct feed from one of the locals (I remember reading that about KMGH), if not all. Anyone know the facts here?
Only regarding KWGN. I will not quote the text from a private message, but I will paraphrase it:
D* receives their(KWGN) HD signal OTA. Comcast is the only provider that receives their(KWGN) signal via digital fiber.
....jc

Is anyone in the Aurora area receiving UPN 20 in HD OTA? I am using an HD Tivo and can't get 20-1 to tune in when doing a digital antenna scan. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!