Hi guys! I've been away for a while, how's the LCG tower construction coming along?

A group of ants has started excavating a new mound near where the southwest leg of the tower will be.

Ants can survive while being bombarded by lethal levels of RF radiation? Or have they mutated into giant 20' long super-ants, ready to do our bidding by hunting down members of (s)care and the JeffCo board? Buwahahahahahahahaha!

A group of ants has started excavating a new mound near where the southwest leg of the tower will be.
I believe (S)CARE filed suit in Federal Court yesterday to stop the ants from furthur construction. They claim the digging could be destructive to the environment for the termites living in a nearby tree. A temporary injunction has been issued and the case has been put on the legal 'fast track'. A hearing is set for some time in late 2008. The case should be resolved long before the other case concerning some television towers on the same mountain.
;)

A group of ants has started excavating a new mound near where the southwest leg of the tower will be.

Let's hope they aren't an endangered species! :eek:

Go git em' boy!

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/AVS/GiantAntSculpture.jpg

Oh, and bring me Katie Daryl alive! Buwhahahahahahaha!

OK, enough for now, back OT

Go git em' boy!

http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/AVS/GiantAntSculpture.jpg

Oh, and bring me Katie Daryl alive! Buwhahahahahahaha!

OK, enough for now, back OT

Now you've done it. Not only have you offended Katie again, but you have given (S)CARE much needed ammunition for their argument as well. Watch for (S)CARE to post this picture on their webpage and for the Jeffco commissioners to use this to vote against the new tower design. "Imagine the chaos if ants that size start climbing on the new tower while it is under construction and cause it to collapse into the KCNC tower nearby, which then collapses and hits and kills the 4 year old child and her single mother who just happened to be standing nearby the tower to watch the ants." Oh the carnage, oh the humanity. "During the autopsy it might also be discovered that both victims were suffering from massive brain tumors, undoubtedly caused by the RF radiation they were exposed to while observing a colony of ants and standing near the towers." Unforgivable! Obviously a justification to vote NO on the towers.
:rolleyes:

Sorry for the OT rant, but I just couldn't resist. OT, how soon can we expect the commissioners to announce a 're-hearing' of this issue as ordered by the judge? Anyone with Jeffco connections hearing things about that????????

Now you've done it. Not only have you offended Katie again, but you have given (S)CARE much needed ammunition for their argument as well. Watch for (S)CARE to post this picture on their webpage and for the Jeffco commissioners to use this to vote against the new tower design. "Imagine the chaos if ants that size start climbing on the new tower while it is under construction and cause it to collapse into the KCNC tower nearby, which then collapses and hits and kills the 4 year old child and her single mother who just happened to be standing nearby the tower to watch the ants." Oh the carnage, oh the humanity. "During the autopsy it might also be discovered that both victims were suffering from massive brain tumors, undoubtedly caused by the RF radiation they were exposed to while observing a colony of ants and standing near the towers." Unforgivable! Obviously a justification to vote NO on the towers.
:rolleyes:



ROTFLOL!

<OT>
For those with HD thru D* (OK, HD Lite if you must quible) ...
Note that the NHL Conference Finals are on D* Special HD Events channel 95 with the OLN HD feed. The Stanley Cup will (probably) also be on ch95 in HD with OLNs feed for games 1 and 2 and NBC for the rest.

Anaheim @ Edmonton Conf Finals Game 4 tonight at 6PM MDT
Booo Anaheim -- Possibly the end for the Ducks!

Carolina @ Buffalo Eastern Conf Finals Game 4 Friday at 5:30PM MDT
</OT>

<OT>
For those with HD thru D* (OK, HD Lite if you must quible) ...
Note that the NHL Conference Finals are on D* Special HD Events channel 95 with the OLN HD feed. The Stanley Cup will (probably) also be on ch95 in HD with OLNs feed for games 1 and 2 and NBC for the rest.

Anaheim @ Edmonton Conf Finals Game 4 tonight at 6PM MDT
Booo Anaheim -- Possibly the end for the Ducks!

Carolina @ Buffalo Eastern Conf Finals Game 4 Friday at 5:30PM MDT
</OT>
FWIW, they have had all of the OLN games in the Conference Finals so far on that channel (unless you count a outage for about 10 minutes the other night). Interestingly, some of the commercials on the HD channel are different from the ones on the SD channel. The HD feed drops off as soon as the game (HD) feed is over, the post game show is only on the SD channel.

Well I called D* but all they were going to do was resubmit via the automated system. I called channel 7 directly and asked for the digital waiver person when she answered I pointed out about the new digital test being allowed and the fact that 7 failed to submit in time with the FCC. She didn't want to grant me a waiver but in the end she did and I received a letter from them two days later.

Really & doesn't have a choice since I could compel a test and they would lose and have to pay the test.

The waiver is revokable within a 14 day period but that would require them to spend more money as well. Until D* has a mpeg4 DVR I am hoping that I can hold onto this waiver.

Though channel 9 has this disallow waiver from the FCC I am going to be calling them later this week.

Oh and the CSR network specialist at D* didn't know about the new rules for dns digital......gave them the url to the fcc website....more people call the more likely to get waivers.

Yes returning to OTA I would rather get all these signals over the air but here we are.

I am still getting the run around ... Got Denied postcard from D* yesterday. Called 7 ... must e-mail their GM. Called back D* "Won't do any good since we will be enabling Denver in June and will pull all waivers to receive LA then".

Am I still stuck w/ no HD (DVR) on anyting except FOX?

# Matt

Well they can't pull waivers if the change in service isn't done yet. Besides there is no dvr for the locals with D* still.

Bottom line would be to request a digital test from them and they will become (7) more flexible in granting a waiver.

Good luck......

Well they can't pull waivers if the change in service isn't done yet. Besides there is no dvr for the locals with D* still.

Bottom line would be to request a digital test from them and they will become (7) more flexible in granting a waiver.

Good luck......

I used the exact argument above w/ D*. They flatly said "DVR is not a requirement" and won't affect the shutoff/pulling of waivers.

On the 7 front, does anyone have a link to the law (I was told to e-mail the GM to "request" the waiver).

# Matt

FWIW, they have had all of the OLN games in the Conference Finals so far on that channel ...Actually, the Western Conference Quarter- and Semi-Finals were blacked out because the Avs were in it. Only now that the Avs have been knocked out are the Western Conference finals on 95 in HD.

I got the fcc link off of satellite guys forum.....In there it clearly states that channel 7 was too late in filing thus they don't get a waiver from digital testing.

It will be interesting to note if they truly turn off the waiver since I don't have an mpeg-4 reciver or AT-9 antenna and the last I heard Denver wasn't even on the satellites yet for testing though they are scheduled for June. We will see what happens :)

I used the exact argument above w/ D*. They flatly said "DVR is not a requirement" and won't affect the shutoff/pulling of waivers.

On the 7 front, does anyone have a link to the law (I was told to e-mail the GM to "request" the waiver).
I contacted D* yesterday to check the status of my requested signal test. Well, well, well, they had no idea of the status. I sent the request in over 3 weeks ago. Supposedly, at least for analog, they are supposed to respond within 30 days.

For those with HD thru D* (OK, HD Lite if you must quible) ...
Note that the NHL Conference Finals are on D* Special HD Events channel 95 with the OLN HD feed.
Now is channel 95 the channel that they put some NFL Network broadcasts on? This could be important(unless blacked out :( ) for some of us that want to watch the inaugural NFL Network broadcast on 11/23 in HD. The Broncos are playing at KC. And if NBC carries the game locally, I'm hosed and will need another feed for HD.
....jc

I contacted D* yesterday to check the status of my requested signal test. Well, well, well, they had no idea of the status. I sent the request in over 3 weeks ago. Supposedly, at least for analog, they are supposed to respond within 30 days.


Now is channel 95 the channel that they put some NFL Network broadcasts on? This could be important(unless blacked out :( ) for some of us that want to watch the inaugural NFL Network broadcast on 11/23 in HD. The Broncos are playing at KC. And if NBC carries the game locally, I'm hosed and will need another feed for HD.
....jc

It is my understanding that the game will be blacked out on NFL network and the NFL-HD feed in local markets of the teams playing that day. I heard Pat Bowlen talking about that a few weeks ago in an interview. Local affiliates will have the local broadcast rights, even though they most likely will be giving us a rebroadcasted NFL Network feed. I got 10 bucks that says our "HD Leader" will just rebroadcast an SD feed.

It is my understanding that the game will be blacked out on NFL network and the NFL-HD feed in local markets of the teams playing that day. I heard Pat Bowlen talking about that a few weeks ago in an interview. Local affiliates will have the local broadcast rights, even though they most likely will be giving us a rebroadcasted NFL Network feed. I got 10 bucks that says our "HD Leader" will just rebroadcast an SD feed.
That's what I was afraid of. :mad: Which brings up another question: Why does NBC(KUSA, KOAA) have the rights when they didn't even broadcast local NFL games(until this coming year - and that's Sunday night only)?
....jc

That's what I was afraid of. :mad: Which brings up another question: Why does NBC(KUSA, KOAA) have the rights when they didn't even broadcast local NFL games(until this coming year - and that's Sunday night only)?
....jc

Good point, but it's the same as everything else. $$$

Seems the only time $$$ doesn't talk is when it's sC.A.R.E. spending it on lawyers, or Golden threatening it with land grabs.

One would think that KCNC would have the rights since they are the current "Broncos Official Station" but NFL rules over-ride any deals Pat Bowlen has with local stations.

I received Katie Behnke's email:

Many of you have emailed us since we contacted you earlier in the week with the news of the latest remand order by the Jefferson County District Court. Many of you have asked what you can do to help.



While the Court’s order is clearly helpful to the Lake Cedar Group and our effort to build a consolidated tower on Lookout Mountain and bring digital television to everyone in our community, the battle is not over.



The Jefferson County Commissioners have been ordered to either reaffirm our 2003 zoning approval or overturn it. They will vote either yes or no. We need your help to ensure a yes vote.



Tower opponents are mobilizing. Make your voice heard.



Please contact the Jefferson County Commissioners and let them know you support the consolidated Lake Cedar Tower. You can use these links to directly contact the Commissioners:



Jim Congrove: commish1@jeffco.us



Kevin McCasky: commish2@jeffco.us



Dave Auburn: commish3@jeffco.us



Your support is critical and we are grateful for it.




so I sent the following to each of the listed commissioners:

I support the Lake Cedar Consolidated tower. I grew up living in Golden, on East street, with an unobstructed view of Lookout Mountain and the towers there upon. The Lake Cedar Group's consolidation makes much more sense than the conglomeration of the current towers, and will enhance the view of Lookout Mountain, while giving the front range the full-power high definition television signal the Federal Communication Commision has mandated.

Please reaffirm the 2003 zoning approval!

Sincerely,

Tim and Eileen Armagost
Golden High Graduate currently living in Arapahoe County

Tim

I just sent my email. However, I doubt that a Teller county resident has much 'pull'. :( But, then again, maybe they'll realize that this issue is much bigger than just the center of the universe, Golden.
....jc



Long Live the Existing Towers!

Here is the one I sent a few minutes ago:

As a 30 year resident of Jefferson County and a former County employee of 15 years, I want my Commissioners to support and vote yes for the consolidated Lake Cedar Group tower for Lookout Mountain.

This long drawn out process of political games needs to stop now. The broadcaster’s proposal is the best for Jefferson County, Golden and the entire Front Range. It reduces the number of towers on Lookout and gives Colorado citizens the best of digital television. It is a “Win Win” for everyone except the attorneys who have drug this through the courts for years, wasting taxpayer money.

Lookout has been the home to Denver broadcasting for over fifty years, way before the million dollar homes on Genesse.

Let’s stop being the last major metro area in the country without full power digital television. Get this approved now and reduce the number of towers on Lookout while giving the citizens of Jefferson County and all of Colorado access to the free digital television they deserve!!!

Thank you

For the hockey fans out there that subscribe to E*, I just finished watching the Buffalo-Carolina game in HD on channel 9463. E* will carry all of the remaining OLN games in HD on this channel.

“’No competent evidence’ means that the governmental body’s decision is ‘so devoid of evidentiary support that it can only be explained as an arbitrary and capricious exercise of authority.’”
So as long as there is some shred of "competent evidence", they can go against all of the "competent evidence" to the contrary?
It seems almost inevitable to me that LCG will win eventually, so any signs of things moving forward are promising...hopefully the "no competent evidence" statement will be strong enough to actually force the commisioners to base their decision on the facts...ah well.

Thanks to those who gave suggestions for an antenna. I still haven't decided what to do, but I at least have a better idea of what the current situation is.

From TPW's post:
However, I doubt that a Teller county resident has much 'pull'.

I also doubt that any JeffCo Commissioner cares about what a non-JeffCo resident thinks, whether it's about the tower or any other issue. If you can't vote for them, you don't count. So I think it's basically a waste of time for non-JeffCo residents to send any email to the JeffCo Commissioners.

And if JeffCo elects its Commissioners like it is done in Douglas County, each one represents a 'district', or some allocated portion of the county, whatever it's called. I know from experience that if you do not contact the Commissioner representing your 'district', you're wasting your time. So if that's how JeffCo also does it, any resident who decides to send email on the tower topic probably should find out which Commissioner represents them and send email only to the one Commissioner.

My email, if I was a JeffCo resident, would say:

Commissioner (1, 2, or 3),

Judge Jackson sent back to you this week the LCG/CARE rezoning case for a prompt resolution. My understanding of his order, after reading it, is that you must resolve this rezoning issue based upon facts that are supported by principles of law. I do not believe CARE has presented any legally valid argument, based upon principles of law, that support their narrow minded position in this matter. In fact, Judge Jackson has refuted every argument raised by CARE, including the "setback issue", which was the latest and last argument presented by CARE.

As my County Commissioner, I expect you to follow the law and vote to approve the LCG rezoning request. How you vote will dictate how I vote when re-election time comes.

I think that is the end of the rezone - plus it will probably be May 2007 before Jackson even rules on the new (negative) vote.

I say the TV stations better get their digital setups moved up there now so they can go ATSC from 2-6am every night and get the same service thing in play now

Here is the link to the News Editorial today titled "Tower of Obstruction."

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/editorials/article/0,2777,DRMN_23964_4730664,00.html

Is Fox 31's HD xmitter in Ft Collins still on? (KFCT ch 21, I think) . Has it been moved? I used to get it great, now it's dead.

Is Fox 31's HD xmitter in Ft Collins still on? (KFCT ch 21, I think) . Has it been moved? I used to get it great, now it's dead.

I used to get KFCT very reliably, but for about the past month I haven't been able to receive it until last night. I got a signal in the low 60's but it did lock. Haven't checked it today. The last time I checked their license application info on the FCC's web site, I seem to recollect that the station applied to change transmitters and reduce power. Perhaps they have done so. If so, too bad, because I used to receive them better than KDVR.

I posted this over in the northern Colo thread, and someone suggested I repeat it here:

The current issue (May 26 - June 8) of the Northern Colorado Business Report is reporting that a Florida firm has proposed a 110 story television tower to be built 20 miles east of Greeley. Richland Towers, Inc won a full power broadcast license for digital TV signals at auction last month for $5.28 Million and has filed a petition with the FCC to build the tower. The license is for a 1 MW digital TV broadcast license. The article states that the owner is looking to add a major network affiliation as well as hosting other TV and radio (Clear Channel was mentioned, as well as ABC,NBC,CBS and Telemundo)

"The company bid on the Greeley license as part of its strategy to enter the fast growing but underserved broadcast markets. In the shadow of the major Denver television market, Northern Colorado has long been overlooked by the media companies."

The license is for Channel 45, and the spokesman goes on to talk about the strong Greeley/FC market as well as the strong Hispanioc market here.

Well, this will be years in coming, but it might very well be up and running before Denver solves its mess. Northern Colorado Business Journal has a website at www.ncbr.com but it hasn't been updated in the last few weeks and doesn't contain this story.

Below is an email that I sent to KRMA this morning. I encourage anyone who missed the concert in HD to do the same.

===============

We always enjoy the Memorial Day concerts that you broadcast from Washington DC each year on RMPBS. Just having purchased a HD TV, we were particularly excited about seeing the concert in HD for the first time. I checked your online schedule yesterday for when the HD version would be broadcast. It said that it would be broadcast the same time as the non-HD version at 7:00PM.

We invited some family members over to watch with us. 7:00PM came and guess what? No HD broadcast! Willie Nelson or something like that was being broadcast! I checked the schedule again thinking that I had made a mistake - but no, it still said that the Memorial Day concert would be broadcast at 7:00PM.

Needless to say, we (and our guests) were extremely disappointed (to say the least). We watched the show in standard def and were hoping that the concert would be re-broadcast in HD later in the evening. I kept checking and never saw it.

What happened? How could your online schedule be so wrong? Where can I get reliable information as to what you will be broadcasting in HD so this doesn't happen to me again? What are you doing to prevent this from happening again?

I've had trouble with KRMA's schedule as well. I've been trying to record the Jazz Legends with Ramsey Lewis and I keep getting some cooking show in SD. This seems to have been going on for several weeks.

I've been trying to record the Jazz Legends with Ramsey Lewis and I keep getting some cooking show in SD.That would be the useless Create channel they have been broadcasting since January. Nowadays the KRMA-DT schedule seems to be as follows:
0000-1200 - Simulcast of KRMA analog (SD)
1200-1800 - Create (SD cooking, gardening, & travel shows)
1800-2400 - PBS-HD feed (same three-hour block repeated at 1800 and 2100)

I have never, ever seen them coordinate a live HD broadcast on KRMA-DT with the KRMA analog schedule.

It's bad enough that KRMA has cut out the best parts of the PBS-HD schedule to make room for Create. They also don't seem to have any automation for these multiple switches per day. So the PBS-HD feed may come on at any random time between 6 and 630PM, depending on when the janitor gets back from his supper break.

:confused: Yet they still keep asking us for our money. :confused:

:confused: Yet they still keep asking us for our money. :confused:Worse yet, as of late they are running the 4:3 Create channel stretched to 16:7 or so but with grey bars at the top and bottom of the screen (!)

Hi Guys!
Wow, I go on vacation and the issue explodes.

My guess is the Commissioners vote 'no' just to appease the mobs and cause more delays of the issue into freakin' eternity (Or until their terms expire). Then they'll be more appeals, approvals, appeals, denials, appeals... on and on and on.

I also think wabisabi is correct, this may end up in the hands of the SC. I do think that it is important that it does finally gets resolved. Most of us do agree that less towers are better for everyone. And if there has to be towers, why not at least do the right thing.

The Analog-Digital changeout is inevitable.

Below is an email that I sent to KRMA this morning. I encourage anyone who missed the concert in HD to do the same.

===============

We always enjoy the Memorial Day concerts that you broadcast from Washington DC each year on RMPBS. Just having purchased a HD TV, we were particularly excited about seeing the concert in HD for the first time. I checked your online schedule yesterday for when the HD version would be broadcast. It said that it would be broadcast the same time as the non-HD version at 7:00PM.

Friend, you couldn't be more right.

PBS HD is an abomination, in my opinion. This must be the worst HD television channel this side of Universal-HD, which shows Universal TV shows from the 1970s after having reformatted them for HD (think Nightrider).

I have seen advertised the same broadcast of American Masters featuring Alice Waters's culinary revolution about 40 times in the last year. No kidding.

They have about 100 programs. That's it. They keep rebroadcasting them over and over.

This is one reason why I stopped supporting public TV. The other reason is, once every 1.5 months or so, they turn PBS into infomercials called "fundraisers", in which they sell packages of Doo Wop CDs for $300. Then, about six months later, I see the same CDs for sale through Time-Life informercials on late night cable for about 1/4 the price.

I'd love to see Mystery in HD. I'd love to see Frontline that way. I'd love to see the upcoming Washington DC Fourth of July show in HD. But they've never shown any of these in HD yet and I don't believe they ever will.

And to anybody writing them, good luck on getting a reply. The PBS-HD broadcast comes from WTBS in Boston, as do all PBS shows, with the exception of a local one here and there. Channel 12 has the better selection of local programing.

Please post any response you may get. If you don't get one in a few weeks, perhaps we could begin writing to the General Manager via snail mail, copying in Dusty Saunders (Rocky Mountain News), Joanne Ostrow (Post) and the FCC chairman and see with happens?

Namaste!

Friend, you couldn't be more right.

PBS HD is an abomination, in my opinion. This must be the worst HD television channel this side of Universal-HD, which shows Universal TV shows from the 1970s after having reformatted them for HD (think Nightrider).

I have seen advertised the same broadcast of American Masters featuring Alice Waters's culinary revolution about 40 times in the last year. No kidding.

They have about 100 programs. That's it. They keep rebroadcasting them over and over.

This is one reason why I stopped supporting public TV. The other reason is, once every 1.5 months or so, they turn PBS into infomercials called "fundraisers", in which they sell packages of Doo Wop CDs for $300. Then, about six months later, I see the same CDs for sale through Time-Life informercials on late night cable for about 1/4 the price.

I'd love to see Mystery in HD. I'd love to see Frontline that way. I'd love to see the upcoming Washington DC Fourth of July show in HD. But they've never shown any of these in HD yet and I don't believe they ever will.

And to anybody writing them, good luck on getting a reply. The PBS-HD broadcast comes from WTBS in Boston, as do all PBS shows, with the exception of a local one here and there. Channel 12 has the better selection of local programing.

Please post any response you may get. If you don't get one in a few weeks, perhaps we could begin writing to the General Manager via snail mail, copying in Dusty Saunders (Rocky Mountain News), Joanne Ostrow (Post) and the FCC chairman and see with happens?

Namaste!
A few corrections:
a) KRMA-DT does not have pledge-week interruptions. Be thankful for small favors.
b) WTBS is Ted Turner's Atlanta superstation. WGBH is the Boston PBS station.
c) PBS-HD includes Frontline on a fairly frequent basis. As a news program however, most of their material is sourced in SD. That will probably not change for several more years.

My big beef is losing the 3-6PM slot to "Create". Smart Travels in on the national PBS-HD feed on at 530PM. It's the best HD show PBS has, but we can't see it here anymore.

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Ernie, Have you heard when the spots will begin airing (or have they already)?

Hi Guys!
Got one of the five new TV spots from, LCG.
http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/MAKES-SENSE.mpg

Great spot Ernie! As also on the billboard. While it is good to get the word out - it sure would be much more informative to let the general public know what to do to show their support - "Tell your Jeffco BCC that you want fewer towers" or something along those lines following the spot. Even on the billboard, showing the difference as a "NO" vote vs. a "YES" vote on the rezoning issue. I don't think sending out emails to some AVS members, largely residing outside of Jefferson county will do much for the cause, other than something to show the FCC that they are trying. A positive vote from the BCC may make it tougher to go back to them to get it reversed, so maybe that was what was on JJ's mind? Has the LCG ever appealed anything? A "NO" vote may just be what is on the LCG's agenda. "Oh, sorry Mr. FCC, we tried. Well, I guess I can't spend this money here, so I'll just put it back in my wallet." This is probabaly their last window of opportunity - I'd just like to see alot of proactivity from them for everyone's good. Any news on the billboard idea?

Looks like KRMA has given up on locating on Mt. Morrision. Have they had enough of JeffCo's zoning BS? They filed an application with the FCC on May 30 to make their STA location on top of Republic Plaza their permanent location, boosting power to a mere 18 kW ERP. Their signal will not reach Loveland, Greeley, or Ft. Collins. I guess I'll have to keep my rotor on my antenna! Also, what effect does this have on the (I believe) other 3 stations (KPXC, etc.) that were going to share KRMA's tower?

They filed an application with the FCC on May 30 to make their STA location on top of Republic Plaza their permanent location, boosting power to a mere 18 kW ERP.Whoa! Can they do that? They are not serving their existing viewer base. This is huge if they get away with this.

Ron,
Steve told me the new spots will start this weekend on all the stations. They won't run all five right away, they will add new ones as they go.

My big beef is losing the 3-6PM slot to "Create". Smart Travels in on the national PBS-HD feed on at 530PM. It's the best HD show PBS has, but we can't see it here anymore.From what I understand, at least part of this is due to PBS itself.

In short, they started charging confiscatory rates to PBS member stations to allow them to broadcast PBS HD programming, but are offering PBS stations "Create" for free to help launch it. (Once again showing that PBS has an awful lot of money to throw around launching new channels that completely obviates their "We're about to go bankrupt, donate now!" image...)

The current issue (May 26 - June 8) of the Northern Colorado Business Report is reporting that a Florida firm has proposed a 110 story television tower to be built 20 miles east of Greeley. Wow... I can't begin to imagine the lightning protection anything that tall east of Greeley would require. I know even the commercial stations located between Cheyenne and Fort Collins go off the air at least a few times each summer when lightning nails their towers, and thunderstorms are much, much more common on the eastern plains (not to mention hail and tornadoes as well.)

Then there are the various and sundry mountain shadowing issues we've discussed before when I recommended LCG put up a large tower on the plains instead...

[curmudgeon mode ON]
On the proposed tower east of Greeley, between the winds, tornadoes, hail and lightening, I can't imagine such a tower could last more than a few years before something brings it down or at least severely damages it. All that said I don't think there is a snowballs chance in he## that such a tower would ever be built, especially if they didn't have at least 5 or 6 stations sign up in advance to use it, which I don't think will happen. Who in their right mind would fund it without a solid commitment from a group of stations.

As for the KRMA request for a permanent location on the RP, I am glad to hear about that. My annual donation to KRMA is due and I was about to mail the check this month. Forget about that donation. And I am not even all that bothered by the switching at nights etc. I feel that they misrepresented the chances of getting the tower up on Morrison for several years to get us (and the FCC) to buy in, and now want the cheap way out. I am hard pressed to believe this wasn't their plan all along when they left the LCG.

Ernie, love the add (seriously, it is good). Once they start showing all those on TV I fully expect the start of full power DTV to be advanced by as much as a millisecond or two all the way up to 2009 from the original 2009 date.

D@mn I wish I wasn't always so pessimistic about all this stuff. After all these years the whole situation just seems like such a waste of time. Nothing is going to happen until the stations convert the existing transmitters, and even then it will all end up in court again anyway.
:mad:
[/curmudgeon mode OFF]

John,
Just wanted to let you all know (if anyone was confused) I didn't produce the LCG TV spots. Steve & Marv put them together. But, I did shoot my own little 'Hitchcock' clip and gave it to them.

John,
Just wanted to let you all know (if anyone was confused) I didn't produce the LCG TV spots. Steve & Marv put them together. But, I did shoot my own little 'Hitchcock' clip and gave it to them.
I knew that, but didn't you appear in one of them????

Yeah, I'm in one of the spots. Not sure when it will air. And like I mentioned, they will air certain spots at random.

Yeah, I'm in one of the spots. Not sure when it will air. And like I mentioned, they will air certain spots at random.

Can you link us to your spot???? Or do we have to wait to see you in 'beautiful low power HD' from the RP?


Note:
Boy, over 6 years in the forum, 2000 posts, 966 of them in this thread and still no friggin full power OTA in Denver in sight. Is there any wonder why I am so burnt out and in the 'curmudgeon mode' so much of the time?

Steve only sent me the one clip (which I posted a link to on the previous page) He said he would send me some more later.

Looks like KRMA has given up on locating on Mt. Morrision. Have they had enough of JeffCo's zoning BS? They filed an application with the FCC on May 30 to make their STA location on top of Republic Plaza their permanent location, boosting power to a mere 18 kW ERP. Their signal will not reach Loveland, Greeley, or Ft. Collins.


KRMA claims to cover 80% of their "baseline service population"

Here is the 18 page application exhibit: http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=406585

It is called an "instant application" in the exhibit, a "MINOR MODIFICATION TO A CONSTRUCTION PERMIT" in the application info.

You can see the applications here: http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=14040 .

It looks like there are two recent pending applications - one is for permanetly using 18 instead of 6. The other is to go digital on top of Republic Plaza forgetting a big antenna.

The sCARE folks got to love this.

PS What is the correct way to file comments for/against this application?

KRMA claims to cover 80% of their "baseline service population"

Here is the 18 page application exhibit: http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=406585

It is called an "instant application" in the exhibit, a "MINOR MODIFICATION TO A CONSTRUCTION PERMIT" in the application info.

You can see the applications here: http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=14040 .

It looks like there are two recent pending applications - one is for permanetly using 18 instead of 6. The other is to go digital on top of Republic Plaza forgetting a big antenna.

The sCARE folks got to love this.

PS What is the correct way to file comments for/against this application?



Play's right in to (S)CARE's claim there are other solutions. KRMA not only left the LCG, they may end up giving a judge (or the commissioners) the excuse they needed to block the LCG on Lookout too. Alternative sites are now available????? So says KRMA. Way to go. :mad:

I think you are right Al, this calls for another letter writing campaign to the FCC. What is this now about number 6???? (Not that anybody is counting).

I was in Orange county about 40 miles south of LA a few weeks ago, and every time I looked both OTA PBS stations there were blasting away in 1920x1080. Afternoon and after midnight.

There should be a way to use KRMA's decision as an early demonstration to the public at large -- this really is what's going to happen in less than 3 years to all of your formerly free tv!

Bill

KRMA used to post things on this forum way back when. They used to be a DTV leader here (remember when they carried the Super Bowl for KCNC?). They must be facing some pretty desparate financial situations to pull this.

On the other hand, I seriously doubt the for-profit stations will want to give up viewers, which translate directly into advertising revenue. So they are unlikely to be satisified with an 18kW ERP solution, and RP is not going to get anyone much more than that.

Looks like channel 2 (34) is now broadcasting a new subchannel. 2-2 is running The Tube:Music Videos. Channel is SD, and according to the epg data, The Tube is scheduled to be broadcast for the next 48 hours, so it appears to be a full time music channel. Not sure how long it will be around, though. Just thought it was an interesting find.

Here's what I think happened with KRMA.

KRMA originally elected channel 6 as their final digital channel after analog cutoff. I think they did that knowing that they could operate at a very low ERP, like 18 kW, to save money. I think they then concluded that a low VHF channel was not a good choice due to electrical interference from non-broadcast sources, including the microwave and blender in your kitchen for OTA reception. VHF low channels have had lots of problems - check the other threads for info on WBBM in Chicago and WKYC in Cleveland, as examples.

The third round FCC final digital channel election was open to stations that met limited circumstances, one of which included stations that had originally elected a low VHF channel and wanted to get off a low VHF channel. That process closed Friday, the day KRMA filed its application to change to channel 18 permanently.

Maintaining full power (and coverage) on a UHF channel meant upwards of 1 mW of power, ten times their 100 kW analog power and perhaps 50+ times the power needed for low VHF. I think they decided that they had to get off low VHF but could not afford (or didn't want to pay for) full power on UHF. They then combined the benefits (as they perceive them) of both UHF and low power with their second filing to stay on Republic but at 18 kW. And of course they have no incentive based on advertising revenue losses.

Of course, this could be a temporary solution to meeting the full power (even at 18 kW if approved) mandate by 7-1-06. They may have every intention of pursuing Mt. Morrision after the zoning battle ends. I guess someone could monitor that to see if KRMA drops their zoning action or not. The other possibility I see here is that the other 3 stations that were going to share KRMA's Mt. Morrision tower may take over the STA towers of KCNC, KMGH, and KUSA once they leave Republic (if ever????).

I can see where sCARE may view this as a testament to alternative locations but I don't think that's a valid thought. The LCG stations are entitled, and have, licenses to cover their populations currently served by analog with their digital services. Republic is not that alternative, with only limited ERP available, as KRMA's applications clearly demonstrate. I think this KRMA action is actually a plus for LCG.

Regarding The Tube, it's been around in other DMA's for quite some time, I think well over a year. I don't think it's going away.

I'm confused as to what will happen with KRMA's Lookout tower now.

As I understood it, they promised to remove it from Lookout within a year (6 months?) of starting operations from the new Morrison tower.

With the Morrison tower now tied up with lawsuits (thanks, Deb :mad: ) can't KRMA just do "the switch" on their current Lookout tower in 2009 and keep their coverage area?

Looks like channel 2 (34) is now broadcasting a new subchannel. 2-2 is running The Tube:Music Videos. Channel is SD, and according to the epg data, The Tube is scheduled to be broadcast for the next 48 hours, so it appears to be a full time music channel. Not sure how long it will be around, though. Just thought it was an interesting find.Not a surprise; KTLA started this in Los Angeles about a month ago, and KWGN and KTLA are both Tribune stations. (So yes, it's "farewell" to full bandwidth HD on 2-1.)

With the Morrison tower now tied up with lawsuits (thanks, Deb :mad: ) can't KRMA just do "the switch" on their current Lookout tower in 2009 and keep their coverage area?They could, but their new application effectively states that their low power signal from RP will be their permanent digital transmitter location; when analog is shut off in 2009 the KRMA-DT signal from RP will be all they will put out.

As mentioned above, look for SCARE to petition the courts that the rest of the RP broadcasters can do the same, and thus LCG should not be allowed to broadcast from Lookout at all once analog is shut off.

For the investors in the group, this might be a good time to open up an antenna store or two in the area to sell and install antennas with rotators. It looks like we will have the luxury of needing our antennas to be able to point at downtown Denver as well as Lookout after 2009. What a great investment opportunity!!!! Thanks KRMA, and of course (S)CARE too.

I think it's going to be more like this...

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/antenna.jpg

P.S. Congrats John on your 2000th post!

They could, but their new application effectively states that their low power signal from RP will be their permanent digital transmitter location; when analog is shut off in 2009 the KRMA-DT signal from RP will be all they will put out.

As mentioned above, look for SCARE to petition the courts that the rest of the RP broadcasters can do the same, and thus LCG should not be allowed to broadcast from Lookout at all once analog is shut off.
I get that, but what happens to their old tower? They're under no legal compulsion to pay for it's removal until they've been broadcasting from Morrison.

I say they leave the tower on Lookout as clutter as spite for sCARE's foolish lawsuits.

I think it's going to be more like this...

...................

P.S. Congrats John on your 2000th post!

Classic photo, I hope that isn't you in the picture, or is this a shot from your LCG TV spot?????


Yeh, 2000 posts, and look all we have accomplished..........

That's Jetlag, remember he works for UAL. ;)

With the Morrison tower now tied up with lawsuits (thanks, Deb :mad: ) can't KRMA just do "the switch" on their current Lookout tower in 2009 and keep their coverage area?They could if they wanted to stay on the channel 6 frequency, which isn't a very good spot for DTV.

In order to broadcast on channel 18 from their Lookout tower they would need a new transmitter (and thus need Jeffco approval). Piece of cake, right?

KCNC is in the same boat.

If I remember correctly, James Morgese indicated that the current Channel 6 tower was nearing "end of life" and would need replacement whether or not there was a DTV mandate.

I think it also has the most RF "hot spot" issues (but I think that is mostly because of the radio stations sharing the tower).

Anyway, now that it looks like I will be forced to pay for cable forever to get PBS HD, I guess my contributions to KRMA will cease and I will apply the funds to my cable bill.

Mark

.........
Anyway, now that it looks like I will be forced to pay for cable forever to get PBS HD, I guess my contributions to KRMA will cease and I will apply the funds to my cable bill.

Mark

Another (S)CARE victory!

Nothing personal Mark, I simply mean this is the kind of reaction the (S)CARE folks have always worked for. How many times have they argued that we really don't even need OTA with cable and satellite options available?? Of course they have never offered to pay the cable bills for all the folks who really can't afford or justify the cost, but I suppose they can all take out seconds on their homes to pay their cable bills since their houses could be worth twice what they are now.

Unfortunately, their tactics will drive a LOT of people to the same conclusion. I certainly can't blame you for a decision like that, I may end up there too. I really don't want to put up rotating antennas on my house permanently. I hate the fact I have an outside antenna now (although I am partial to dishes and never seem to have enough, but that is another story). I know I will be hard pressed to come up with a reason to donate to KRMA again this year myself. This isn't fair to KRMA either, but my dad once told me 'life is not fair'. Boy was he right on that one.

John,

I hadn't thought of it as a sCARE victory, but I suppose it is. I gave extra contributions to RMPBS's Digital campaign, testified at Jefferson County, wrote letters, etc. only to see no progress on Mt. Morrisson. I always thought their part of the bargain was to move with due diligence after approval and get it done, but I suppose there was a funding problem.

If funding is such a huge problem, our two PBS stations (KBDI & KRMA) now need to work together to come up with a new alternative to better serve the area.

Mark

Ok, I know the group is hating KRMA right now... but I have to ask anyway. I am running Windows Media Center Edition, and in the program guide for the OTA KRMA digital feed, it lists the program guide for the SD feed.

Has anyone figured out how to fix the guide information?

Well, I am OTA only, and if the networks ever start broadcasting a digital signal from Lookout, I'm going to tear down my Rube Goldberg contraption that allows me to see the RP signals. I figure I'm going to lose KRMA. Oh well, I guess I won't even have to worry about supporting them, since I won't even know they are asking :(

Ok, I know the group is hating KRMA right now... but I have to ask anyway. I am running Windows Media Center Edition, and in the program guide for the OTA KRMA digital feed, it lists the program guide for the SD feed.

Has anyone figured out how to fix the guide information?
It's up to KRMA to provide the proper guide information to Tribune Media Services, which then provides it to virtually every program guide known to mankind. DirecTV maintains their own program listings, for some reason.

Of course they have never offered to pay the cable bills for all the folks who really can't afford or justify the cost, but I suppose they can all take out seconds on their homes to pay their cable bills since their houses could be worth twice what they are now.I'd be amazed if the towers made even a 5% difference in home prices for the neighborhoods most directly affected.

They certainly haven't slowed down building in Golden over the past 15 years; I remember when it was clear sailing on 93 all the way down to the mouth of Clear Creek Canyon.

Ok, I know the group is hating KRMA right now... but I have to ask anyway. I am running Windows Media Center Edition, and in the program guide for the OTA KRMA digital feed, it lists the program guide for the SD feed.TitanTV has a separate program guide for KRMA-DT vs. KRMA analog, as does the Tribune ZAP2IT service which drives my MythTV box. So I doubt the problem is on the KRMA end, but somewhere in your MCE setup. Try looking around for some slightly misleading channel name that gives you what you want.

Saw the new commercial for the first time on the 9news at noon today.

A bit OT, but I bet SCARE hopes most cable subscribers are like the person quoted in this article (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060519/NEWS01/605190512) , describing what happened when the cable went out in Indianapolis a few weeks back:
"We're missing 'Will and Grace,' " cried Janet Cowan, who lives with her husband in the 1900 block of Skiles Street.

When told she could watch it by unplugging the cable connection and tuning to the network station, she, like others who got the suggestion, was relieved.

"You mean I can still watch the news if I unplug the cable?" said Eloise Valinet, who lives near Township Line Road and 86th Street. "Oh, thank you.''I would think one thing on SCARE's side long term is that many people probably don't know you can still get an OTA signal, let alone an HD one ("Don't you need Digital Cable for that? Comcast says I do.")

many people probably don't know you can still get an OTA signal, let alone an HD one ("Don't you need Digital Cable for that? Comcast says I do.")What's more, most of those people never give much thought to how much of their viewing is on the "cable-exclusive" channels, versus the ones that could be had for free.

Looks like channel 2 (34) is now broadcasting a new subchannel. 2-2 is running The Tube:Music Videos. Channel is SD, and according to the epg data, The Tube is scheduled to be broadcast for the next 48 hours, so it appears to be a full time music channel. Not sure how long it will be around, though. Just thought it was an interesting find.

As much as I hate sub-channels, I have to admit I'm kind of liking this “The Tube” thing. They're playing a lot of good music. Way better than the crap they call music I see on MTV.

Just saw the first spot on KUSA. It looks like it was the same one that Ernie posted. I hope at least one of the five they made is a long version!

I posted this over in the northern Colo thread, and someone suggested I repeat it here:

The current issue (May 26 - June 8) of the Northern Colorado Business Report is reporting that a Florida firm has proposed a 110 story television tower to be built 20 miles east of Greeley. Richland Towers, Inc won a full power broadcast license for digital TV signals at auction last month for $5.28 Million and has filed a petition with the FCC to build the tower. The license is for a 1 MW digital TV broadcast license. The article states that the owner is looking to add a major network affiliation as well as hosting other TV and radio (Clear Channel was mentioned, as well as ABC,NBC,CBS and Telemundo)

I hope they do this. That would cover the north Colorado markets which are steadily growing. Thru the next 20 years this would be valueable.

Thanks for posting that.

Looks like KRMA has given up on locating on Mt. Morrision. Have they had enough of JeffCo's zoning BS? They filed an application with the FCC on May 30 to make their STA location on top of Republic Plaza their permanent location, boosting power to a mere 18 kW ERP. Their signal will not reach Loveland, Greeley, or Ft. Collins. I guess I'll have to keep my rotor on my antenna! Also, what effect does this have on the (I believe) other 3 stations (KPXC, etc.) that were going to share KRMA's tower?

When I read this quote, I sent an e-mail to RMPBS and finally got a reply about this issue. The response was from their General Manager (James Morgese) and he said that this is a contingency plan incase the tower gets overturned. He gave me the impression that things will be resolved and Mt. Morrison will be their location when precedings are finished.

I can't remember but I think we may have heard a story like this before :rolleyes: :( :rolleyes:

Does anyone know where the TVGOS info comes from for those of use using OTA only (no cable or satellite)? Is it on analog 6 (KRMA)? I recently switched from an amplified RCA indoor VHF/UHF antenna, to the Zenith UHF only one. I was getting the TVGOS info with the RCA antenna, but I'm no longer getting any TVGOS info with the Zenith antenna.

As much as I hate sub-channels, I have to admit I'm kind of liking this “The Tube” thing. They're playing a lot of good music. Way better than the crap they call music I see on MTV.Great - they should be a cable channel instead.

(Sorry, subchannels tick me off, but that's why stations are calling it digital TV these days rather than HD…)

Hey, I agree with you, kucharsk.

Sadly, I think the days of real HDTV are coming to an end. Networks love the idea of multicasting, because three, somewhat good looking channels, will rake in way more cash than one great looking HD channel ever will.

Which has, unfortunately, always been the problem with HDTV; HD will not bring in one penny more in revenue in any way than SD did, so for the TV stations it's been an outlay of millions of dollars to upgrade equipment for $0 back end return.

Frankly, if there were greater penetration of ATSC receivers in the marketplace, I'd expect more than one station to be running 24x7 infomercial subchannels, but even the infomercial folks won't pay for that until they know there's a chance someone will actually be watching. (This is the same reason that KUSA very, very rarely mentions that "Weather Plus" is available on channel 9-2 as opposed to "Comcast Channel whatever." - 99% of their viewers would have no idea what "9-2" meant…)

Not that way here in the Raleigh NC market - EVERYBODY knows that WRAL/WRAZ and WNCN have their own weather (and in WRAL's case, a 24 hours news) channel. Some of the other channels I don't watch enough to say.

Hey, I agree with you, kucharsk.

Sadly, I think the days of real HDTV are coming to an end. Networks love the idea of multicasting, because three, somewhat good looking channels, will rake in way more cash than one great looking HD channel ever will.

I was under the impression there was enough bandwidth for a FULL HD Channel and a couple of SD's... am I wrong?

I was under the impression there was enough bandwidth for a FULL HD Channel and a couple of SD's... am I wrong?
No. However, the quality of the HD signal will suffer. Thus the more bits being sent, the better the quality. Currently defined as HD-Lite.
....jc

I was under the impression there was enough bandwidth for a FULL HD Channel and a couple of SD's... am I wrong?
Just for comparison:

OTA Maximum bandwidth for HD: 19.2 Mbps
Typical D* HD-Lite bandwidth: 7-14 Mbps (I think - someone correct me on the lower end if I'm wrong)

HD-DVD/BluRay bandwidth: 30+ Mbps

Personally, I think 19.2 Mbps is pushing it for transmitting HD. Anything less than that (and multicasting stations typically steal 1-2 Mbps for each SD channel) and the picture starts to turn to Crap(*) pretty quick.

(*) Crap is a registered trademark of HD-Lite, brought to you by DirecTV. Somebody up there loves you!

(*) Crap is a registered trademark of HD-Lite, brought to you by DirecTV. Somebody up there loves you!
My take. D* is really blowing it, or this is part of the plan. Sure SW2 was late, but that changes nothing.

D* is blowing it...

HD-Lite is a joke and they are just looking for quantity....
Very slow HD rollout. After all, the ground infrastructure could've been completed a long time ago....
Still no HD DVR....
Also, no national(CONUS) MPEG4 channels. This could be accomplished with SW1 & SW2....
Only the 4 prime neworks being broadcast(ABC, CBS, FOX & NBC)....
No HD 'Significantly Viewed' channels. (This could be because of legal issues with the worthless SHREVA legislation)...


D* is 'playing' us...

HD-Lite is intentional. They will launch an 'enhanced' HD service with much higher bit rates once they have the capacity. And, of course, it won't be free!
The HD DVR is late due to the fact that in an effort to save money, their outsourced personnel aren't 'The Sharpest Tools In The Shed'....
They are stupid enough to think that cable is still behind them(and other technologies don't exist). When in fact in the larger cities D* is being crushed.
They think that all of their subscribers are 'Lifetime' and there is no need to be concerned...


What's your opinion?
....jc

My take. D* is really blowing it,
<snip>
What's your opinion?
Yup.

<ot>
D* blew it when they took over support of the DirecTiVos. The DirecTV/TiVo boxes at one time were the best available. Now they've stagnated the software and started down another road for their DVR platform. Big mistake. That and all their shenanigans with HD and I'm looking forward to the day(*) when I call them up and let them know I'm not coming back.

(*) "the day" will be once TiVo rolls out their Series 3 HD box.
</ot>

Back on topic, the reason I'll be able to shove D* to the curb is because even despite all that's wrong with the OTA situation here in Denver, I can get every local HD channel for no monthly fee. It's been a long time coming, and there's still room for improvement - especially for those outside of the sweet spot where everything's available - but dang it five years ago I couldn't get any local HD (KRMA-DT was the only HD signal available at all).

HD-Lite is intentional. They will launch an 'enhanced' HD service with much higher bit rates once they have the capacity. And, of course, it won't be free!I wouldn't be surprised at all! I bet they call it HDplus or HDextreme. It's all in the marketing.

Great SPEAKOUT (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/speak_out/article/0,2777,DRMN_23970_4750269,00.html) letter today in the RMN.
Not sure if The author is a poster here (but he sounds like he is, as he knows all the facts) If you are Kurt, you rock!

The Tech & Telecom (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/tech/) section of the Rocky today has a few stories about HDTV, the transition, HDNet, etc.

.... I can get every local HD channel for no monthly fee. It's been a long time coming, and there's still room for improvement....

No if only we could get access to TNTHD - ESPNHD, etc and all the other HD channels that are out there. Without paying out the wazzoo for them

.... I can get every local HD channel for no monthly fee. It's been a long time coming, and there's still room for improvement....

Now if only we could get access to TNTHD - ESPNHD, etc and all the other HD channels that are out there. Without paying out the wazzoo for them

I wonder if a few of you with more experience in OTA HD in Denver can give me some advice. I just got a brand new Sharp 37", and am only doing OTA. Theoretically, I am ideally located. I live in the Park Hill neighborhood - only 3.5 miles east of downtown. A straight line from my house to Lookout Mtn. goes right through Republic Plaza. I am using the old rooftop antenna that probably dates to the 70s. It is fixed in one direction, but as I said, that direction is pointed right at both Lookout and RP.

I am noticing some difference in quality between HD broadcasts on different channels. All channels are coming in at or near maximum strength. 4.1 and 9.1 seem perfect - Leno and Letterman and 9 News all have that wow factor. Two issues:

1) 7.1 is pretty good, but seems to be slightly granier, but also has these little black spots - may four pixels in size - that come and go quickly and randomly on the screen. The best way to describe it is that it looks like fleas hopping around on the screen.

2) I finally saw an HD broadcast on 31.1 - a baseball game on Saturday. It was not good at all. Not so much grainy as blurry - and up close there was a slight shadow image next to everything. It was very difficult to read the name on the pitcher's jersey. It was worse than SD on a CRT.

So, what most likely accounts for 4.1 and 9.1 being fine, 7.1 being slightly less so, and 31.1 being far less so? Is a 40 year old antenna not ideal, even if it works? Will changing the coax cable to a new one likely help? Is 31.1 not on Lookout or RP so a unidirectional antenna is not ideal?

Thanks for any pointers from experience.

I wonder if a few of you with more experience in OTA HD in Denver can give me some advice. I just got a brand new Sharp 37", and am only doing OTA.
[original message snipped]

Is your Sharp a 1080p or 720p native? If it is 1080p, it would make sense that 4-1 and 9-1 would look better since those are both broadcast in 1080i. KMGH and FOX are both in 720p, so probably won't look as good.

About the black pixels (fleas, as you call it), is your signal strength just slightly lower with 7-1? I'll see some pixelation sometimes as the signal fluctuates.

I just bought my first HDTV last month, so I'm pretty new with all of this myself.

Is your Sharp a 1080p or 720p native? If it is 1080p, it would make sense that 4-1 and 9-1 would look better since those are both broadcast in 1080i. KMGH and FOX are both in 720p, so probably won't look as good.

About the black pixels (fleas, as you call it), is your signal strength just slightly lower with 7-1? I'll see some pixelation sometimes as the signal fluctuates.

I just bought my first HDTV last month, so I'm pretty new with all of this myself.

It's a 37D40U - 720 native. But no way 31.1 should look as bad as it does I would not think. Yes, the signal is slighly less with 7.1. Around 75-80 instead of low 90s.

Doug,
You should check your display's menu settings. See if there are menu's for setting/changing resolution. It sounds like a conversion issue. Maybe the tuner in your Sharp is doing some un-needed conversion for the two, 720p stations.

I just checked your model and it's native resolution is actually 1366 x 768. So, there is always some conversion going on, on HD signals.

Doug,
You should check your display's menu settings. See if there are menu's for setting/changing resolution. It sounds like a conversion issue. Maybe the tuner in your Sharp is doing some un-needed conversion for the two, 720p stations.

I just checked your model and it's native resolution is actually 1366 x 768. So, there is always some conversion going on, on HD signals.

Hmmm, I'm fairly sure the TV has no resolution settings. So you don't think it's antenna or coax related? Is a 40 year old antenna as good as a new one?

My best guess is, it's something internal. Antenna issues only lead to reception. With ATSC digital OTA, you either get the signal or not. And when you don't 'get it' you get pixelation. You also described the images on 7/31 as blurry? That descibes resolution conversion, not pixelation. Now, your desciption of black fleas does sound like pixlation. So, maybe your have both issues, that's completely possible.


Just a thought, one thing you can do to test your issues, is to pick-up an external OTA receiver. With an external receiver, you can experiement with setting the receiver to output different resolutions. You might even get better PQ if you can choose it yourself, rather than letting the internal OTA receiver do it. For example, on my 720p native display, I manually set the OTA receiver's output resolution to the native of the station, NOT the display. The reason is, the scaler/convertor in my Projector is far superior to the scaler in my OTA receiver.

My best guess is, it's something internal. Antenna issues only lead to reception. With ATSC digital OTA, you either get the signal or not. And when you don't 'get it' you get pixelation. You also described the images on 7/31 as blurry? That descibes resolution conversion, not pixelation. Now, your desciption of black fleas does sound like pixlation. So, maybe your have both issues, that's completely possible.


Just a thought, one thing you can do to test your issues, is to pick-up an external OTA receiver. With an external receiver, you can experiement with setting the receiver to output different resolutions. You might even get better PQ if you can choose it yourself, rather than letting the internal OTA receiver do it. For example, on my 720p native display, I manually set the OTA receiver's output resolution to the native of the station, NOT the display. The reason is, the scaler/convertor in my Projector is far superior to the scaler in my OTA receiver.

If the issue was internal conversion of 720p, wouldn't the "defects" I see on 7 and 31 be of the same basic nature? They are not at all. 7 is farily sharp, but has the slight pixelation issue I described as black fleas. Overall, I would also say the picture is also a bit granier thatn 4 or 9. But overall, 7 is not bad at all, and the average person would not think it looks much different than 4 or 9 - it's very passable. But 31 is totally different. I would equate it to a not great SD CRT image. It has slight ghosting, which probably accounts for the overall "bluriness." Not grainy, just not clear. I had thought that ghosting was an OTA interference artifact. I'm within the 30 day return window on the TV, but like it other than this issue, which I'm not sure is the TV's fault. How different does 7 or 31 look from 4 and 9 on others' sets?

If the issue was internal conversion of 720p, wouldn't the "defects" I see on 7 and 31 be of the same basic nature? They are not at all. 7 is farily sharp, but has the slight pixelation issue I described as black fleas. Overall, I would also say the picture is also a bit granier thatn 4 or 9. But overall, 7 is not bad at all, and the average person would not think it looks much different than 4 or 9 - it's very passable. But 31 is totally different. I would equate it to a not great SD CRT image. It has slight ghosting, which probably accounts for the overall "bluriness." Not grainy, just not clear. I had thought that ghosting was an OTA interference artifact. I'm within the 30 day return window on the TV, but like it other than this issue, which I'm not sure is the TV's fault. How different does 7 or 31 look from 4 and 9 on others' sets?

On my 30" tube CRT all native HD content looks quite good, but not equal in performance. I would say that FOX 31 live content (Sports) has a softer look than 4 and 9. I also notice many changes in quality within a Fox broadcast depending on the camera angle used (I suspect that fOX still uses many 480 cameras that are then upconverted to HD resolution, this would make things look very soft).

ABC HD broadcasts usually look great, but my outboard HDTV tuner does a fantastic job of scaling/transcoding content to match my displays resolution. My old tuner kept things native as it was output to the display and my display made 720p content look terrible.

From what you are describing I would say that your problems cannot be localized to 1 fix. I would say that some of your problems are from the broadcasters end (FOX in particular) while the problem with your ABC signal is clearly scaler related. Someone like Ernie who owns a 720p native device may not experience what you are going through because he receives and displays FOX/ABC content in their native resolutions. His views may differ from mine because of this and that is okay.

If I were you I would look into getting an outboard tuner (like Ernie suggested) and see if it's 1080i output makes FOX and ABC look great. Otherwise, I would suggest that you return your Sharp (they really do a poor job of scaling/transcoding, this comes from someone who used to sell them) and try another 37"/40" display. Sony does a nice job of scaling as do the 37" Panasonic Plasma TVs.

-Matt

2) I finally saw an HD broadcast on 31.1 - a baseball game on Saturday. It was not good at all. Not so much grainy as blurry - and up close there was a slight shadow image next to everything. It was very difficult to read the name on the pitcher's jersey. It was worse than SD on a CRT.

So, what most likely accounts for 4.1 and 9.1 being fine, 7.1 being slightly less so, and 31.1 being far less so?
Are you sure that the game was actually in HD? And, for that matter, that all of the programs that you are comparing were actually in HD?

I don't have the listings for last Saturday, but looking at the HD Sports Guide for the future, they don't show a single Fox MLB game on a Saturday as being in HD. Some on FSN, but that is a different channel. On my Mits WS, SD broadcasts generally look horrible. I only get the true quality of HD when watching an HD broadcast.
....jc

Here it is June and no HD locals from D* yet - sigh. I saw they were going to do the local HD sports channel for one of the cities (NYC or Boston - not sure) so lets hope they do Altitude HD for us

Are you sure that the game was actually in HD? And, for that matter, that all of the programs that you are comparing were actually in HD?

I don't have the listings for last Saturday, but looking at the HD Sports Guide for the future, they don't show a single Fox MLB game on a Saturday as being in HD. Some on FSN, but that is a different channel. On my Mits WS, SD broadcasts generally look horrible. I only get the true quality of HD when watching an HD broadcast.
....jc

Well, now that's an interesting question. I assume it was HD because it was in widescreen, and did not give me a stretch option, which I always have on SD shows, and the players were not fat - so i could not make it narrower. You think it was SD? Hmmm, when is the next HD show on 31?

Only HD programming on Fox is today, tomorrow and Friday at 7 PM for an hour or two. Nothing on Sat.

Go to www.titantv.com for good listings

Doug,

That makes more sense. If the program was not in HD, then obviously it would look soft and crappy. The original producers PQ is almost always the determining factor. Each station does not alter the signal very much, except the transmitting MB per second bandwidth they allow.

Back to your very first question, a 40 year old antenna will not give you ghosting or any other PQ artifacts. Brand-new antennas still work the same way they did in 1950!

Here it is June and no HD locals from D* yet - sigh. I saw they were going to do the local HD sports channel for one of the cities (NYC or Boston - not sure) so lets hope they do Altitude HD for us

I did a search and couldn't find an exact date for our HD locals - just "June". Has anyone seen a more solid date?

As for Altitude HD, I would hope that it would be part of the next wave of channels to be added (maybe in the fall in time for the Avs/Nugs seasons).
BTW, I think it was NESN in HD that I saw was being added.

I did a search and couldn't find an exact date for our HD locals - just "June". Has anyone seen a more solid date?

As for Altitude HD, I would hope that it would be part of the next wave of channels to be added (maybe in the fall in time for the Avs/Nugs seasons).
BTW, I think it was NESN in HD that I saw was being added.
I think you are right about NESN

I just added back HD to my D* as the Sopranos is over and so dropped HBO and added back the HDs - I did not realize how much I missed those channels.

(With my unemployment status - cut back on my monthly expenses a while back)

Reggie

I think you are right about NESN

I just added back HD to my D* as the Sopranos is over and so dropped HBO and added back the HDs - I did not realize how much I missed those channels.

(With my unemployment status - cut back on my monthly expenses a while back)

Reggie

A friend of mine does major business with Kroenke Enterprises and the Nuggets/Avs organizations and says the they would love to have their HD channel on D*, so we can keep our fingers crossed that it will happen when D* has the capacity available. FWIW, I know this is obviously second hand info (although the friend is a serious sports fan who owns a luxury suite at Pepsi Center and spends a lot of time talking sports with Kroenke and all of the folks down there). At any rate, I put this rumor in only to let people know, unlike the Comcast folks in Philly and some other areas that refuse to allow their HD signal on satellite, that will not be problem with Altitude. Now as for the price and timing of negotiations, who knows?????

2) I finally saw an HD broadcast on 31.1 - a baseball game on Saturday. It was not good at all. Not so much grainy as blurry - and up close there was a slight shadow image next to everything. It was very difficult to read the name on the pitcher's jersey. It was worse than SD on a CRT.

The Fox Game of the Week telecasts are in Widescreen SD, not in HD. Saturday's game (Cubs at Cardinals) was certainliy in SD. As far as I know you won't see a baseball game in HD on Fox until the playoffs. I'm not sure why; they have the cameras, trucks, and what not for the football season (last year Fox did all their NFL games in HD).

On the other hand, my viewing experience of that game was not as bad as what you are reporting.

Baseball (and sports in general) in (nearly) full-bandwidth HD is something worth seeing. But you would probably only be able to see that on ESPN-HD (on Comcast or E*) or INHD (on Comcast) (D* only has ESPN-HDLite :( from what I have read here and on other forums).

I just noticed I hit with this post a milestone of 100 posts! Not a big number (I'm averaging 25 posts a year) compared to many of you. Usually I prefer to keep fairly quiet, listening and following along, and posting only when I have something extra to add.

I signed up for my ID four years ago, although I started reading a couple of months before that, when I was moving back to Boulder from Northern California, and was dismayed to learn of the mess they call OTA DTV in the Denver area. Actually, I'm still pretty dismayed. A lot has changed in four years, but a lot has (unfortunately) remained the same.

I've never met any of you, but feel like I know many of you pretty well just from your posts. Thanks for your posts, your insights, your wisdom, and your experiences. I'm glad I've been around to learn from the collective wisdom of this group, and to be there for all the up and down moments we've had.

I just noticed I hit with this post a milestone of 100 posts! Not a big number (I'm averaging 25 posts a year) compared to many of you. Usually I prefer to keep fairly quiet, listening and following along, and posting only when I have something extra to add.

I signed up for my ID four years ago, although I started reading a couple of months before that, when I was moving back to Boulder from Northern California, and was dismayed to learn of the mess they call OTA DTV in the Denver area. Actually, I'm still pretty dismayed. A lot has changed in four years, but a lot has (unfortunately) remained the same.

I've never met any of you, but feel like I know many of you pretty well just from your posts. Thanks for your posts, your insights, your wisdom, and your experiences. I'm glad I've been around to learn from the collective wisdom of this group, and to be there for all the up and down moments we've had.
Congrats - 100 posts means you now owe us couple rounds of Fat Tires.(not Coors from Golden) :)

Reggie

Congrats - 100 posts means you now owe us couple rounds of Fat Tires.(not Coors from Golden) :)

Reggie

"I'll drinkkkk to thtthtat!"
:D

Congratulation HDJello, fortunately the counter doesn't only count useful and intelligent posts or most of us would be 'pushing 100' as well. But hey, we're having fun (we ARE having FUN aren't we????????).

I wrote the following email to KRMA to inquire into plans for PBS-HD:


>I was wondering if PBS HD will ever broadcast on the PBS HD channel the Andrea Bocelli concert, taped at Lake Las Vegas, or the Ramsey Lewis jazz music series? How about the Mystery programs, all of which were created in HD format? I'd love to see all of the pledge drive concerts shown every so often in HD and 5.1 dolby sound. Wow! Thanks.<

They replied:

> Thank you for your inquiry regarding HDTV programming. Eventually all our programming will be in the new format, but there are no immediate plans for the programs you mentioned. I will, however, share your interest with the Programming and Engineering departments. We appreciate your interest in Rocky Mountain PBS.


Beverly Coleman
Viewer Services Coordinator<

2) I finally saw an HD broadcast on 31.1 - a baseball game on Saturday. It was not good at all. Not so much grainy as blurry - and up close there was a slight shadow image next to everything. It was very difficult to read the name on the pitcher's jersey. It was worse than SD on a CRT.

So, what most likely accounts for 4.1 and 9.1 being fine, 7.1 being slightly less so, and 31.1 being far less so? Is a 40 year old antenna not ideal, even if it works? Will changing the coax cable to a new one likely help? Is 31.1 not on Lookout or RP so a unidirectional antenna is not ideal?

Thanks for any pointers from experience.

Hi Doug,

31 wasn't broadcasting the game in HD. They stretched the image artificially to make it wide screen (sort of like the TV itself can do with SD broadcasts).

When they repeat shows like Prison Break or House, try those. The WOW factor is definitely there.

Don't know about 7.1. It's always been my impression that KMGH's engineering is a bit fly-by-night. Last year their HD and SD feeds to Comcast went Kaput on a Monday Night Football game and wasn't restored for a week. Not exactly encouraging. And I get more artifacts from their HD programming, both via cable and OTA, than any other source. Easily so. Sometimes on "Lost", last year, it was unwatchable.

If you haven't already done so, may I suggest running new coax from the antenna? You may be losing signal that way, if the wire is too old (or that old two lead flat wire from the 70s... that stuff was worthless at stopping signal loss).

Well, now that's an interesting question. I assume it was HD because it was in widescreen, and did not give me a stretch option, which I always have on SD shows, and the players were not fat - so i could not make it narrower. You think it was SD? Hmmm, when is the next HD show on 31?

This is confusing. The ballgame was uploaded to Fox's headquarters in SD. At headquarters, they stretched it (upconverted it to HD) and re-transmitted it to the affiliates in HD. The transmission from 31 is digital HD at all times, even though the programming itself is in SD. That is why your television won't give you the stretch option.

My biggest fear with HD is because the satellite services (D* and E*) won't use full HD 1080p, neither will the broadcasters. Why spend all that money on full HD when people can't receive it except OTA and, in some cases, via cable?

The really sad part is most people buying these new, expensive TVs are unaware they can slap on a pair of rabbit ears with a loop antenna in the middle and get the local stations in digital and/or HD, for free. No monthly fee. I walked into Costco the other day and went by the HD TVs. They're running a video on them to demonstrate how good HD looks. There is a crawl message at the bottom of the video that says something to the effect "the only way to receive HD broadcasts is through your cable or satellite service".

Very discouraging.

This is confusing. The ballgame was uploaded to Fox's headquarters in SD. At headquarters, they stretched it (upconverted it to HD) and re-transmitted it to the affiliates in HD. The transmission from 31 is digital HD at all times, even though the programming itself is in SD. That is why your television won't give you the stretch option.

I believe they actually use 480p widescreen cameras for these games. There was a time when Fox was going to do no HD, and do only 480p widescreen, roughly DVD quality. So I don't believe the image was stretched; rather it is cropped and interlaced for 4x3 analog transmission.

I hope the 480p widescreen stuff gets decommissioned soon. If they can do all their Sunday NFL games in HD then they should be able to do all of their Saturday MLB games in HD (at least until the seasons overlap).

This is confusing. The ballgame was uploaded to Fox's headquarters in SD. At headquarters, they stretched it (upconverted it to HD) and re-transmitted it to the affiliates in HD. The transmission from 31 is digital HD at all times, even though the programming itself is in SD. That is why your television won't give you the stretch option.

My biggest fear with HD is because the satellite services (D* and E*) won't use full HD 1080p, neither will the broadcasters. Why spend all that money on full HD when people can't receive it except OTA and, in some cases, via cable?

The really sad part is most people buying these new, expensive TVs are unaware they can slap on a pair of rabbit ears with a loop antenna in the middle and get the local stations in digital and/or HD, for free. No monthly fee. I walked into Costco the other day and went by the HD TVs. They're running a video on them to demonstrate how good HD looks. There is a crawl message at the bottom of the video that says something to the effect "the only way to receive HD broadcasts is through your cable or satellite service".

Very discouraging.

You are right - this is confusing, but it's good to know my TV is OK - but there is not as much true HD as I thought. I thought that 6.1 was mostly HD, but now I see from looking at the Titan TV directory that hardly any is. I wondered why so much of it was more grainy. Actually, for SD those shows on 6.1 look pretty good. As usual, I learned a lot from this forum.

As for bad advice/lack of knowledge, I bought my TV at BB, and the guy says "you won't get good reception on HD with an antenna." Then he takes me back and shows me a TV with lots of screen noise and lines, and tells me that is the best I will do with an antenna, and he said "I just want to make sure you know what you will be getting so you don't bring it back." I had read enough of this forum before then to know he had no clue what he was talking about.

Hi Doug,

31 wasn't broadcasting the game in HD. They stretched the image artificially to make it wide screen (sort of like the TV itself can do with SD broadcasts).

When they repeat shows like Prison Break or House, try those. The WOW factor is definitely there.

Don't know about 7.1. It's always been my impression that KMGH's engineering is a bit fly-by-night. Last year their HD and SD feeds to Comcast went Kaput on a Monday Night Football game and wasn't restored for a week. Not exactly encouraging. And I get more artifacts from their HD programming, both via cable and OTA, than any other source. Easily so. Sometimes on "Lost", last year, it was unwatchable.

If you haven't already done so, may I suggest running new coax from the antenna? You may be losing signal that way, if the wire is too old (or that old two lead flat wire from the 70s... that stuff was worthless at stopping signal loss).


I will replace the coax - it's both cheap and old, and you know what the Denver sun does to things. Wish I had the guts to climb up there and do it myself. It's on the peak of a fairly steep two-story roof. But I bet I could see RP just 3.5 miles away from up there.

As for bad advice/lack of knowledge, I bought my TV at BB, and the guy says "you won't get good reception on HD with an antenna." Then he takes me back and shows me a TV with lots of screen noise and lines, and tells me that is the best I will do with an antenna, and he said "I just want to make sure you know what you will be getting so you don't bring it back." I had read enough of this forum before then to know he had no clue what he was talking about.
I know of people up here(50+ miles from Denver) who have bought HD tuners(not an HD TV) because(if they can receive the station) the picture will be crystal clear, no noise or fuzz. They like the fact that they are watching 'DVD quality' TV, even it's not an HD program and it's being viewed on SD set.
....jc

A friend of mine does major business with Kroenke Enterprises and the Nuggets/Avs organizations and says the they would love to have their HD channel on D*, so we can keep our fingers crossed that it will happen when D* has the capacity available.

I've been a lurker big time in this forum and this is my first post. I'm just getting up to speed with this so apologies if this post doesn't look the way it should. JMartinko, I'd tell your friend to make sure he gets paid upfront in regards to Altitude. Their financial problems are leading to a freelancer revolt and they may turn union soon. They are having an informational meeting on Thursday. They pay much lower than FSN with no benefits. FSN contributes to a 401k program and so did Colorado Studios when they crewed for Altitude, but that abruptly stopped with no warning. One week it was on their checks, the next it was gone. They have eliminated most of their local show budget and aren't able to do anything in HD other than the games. Things are not good over there and this is no rumor. It comes from the people who work for them and the freelancers who do as well.

Also, FSN signed their HD carry agreement with Comcast last week. All FSNs in Comcast markets will start popping up. FSN-RM already does the games in HD in anticipation of this happening and now its here. Although, no start date has been revealed, it may take the start of a new fiscal in July for it to happen.

To everyone, thanks for all the info you have provided me. I live in Centennial around I-25 and University and have a Winegard Antenna (I picked up for free from a freind) pointed in between Lookout and Republic. I receive 2,4,6,7,9,20 and 31 in digital and HD when shown thanks to tinkering and your help in selecting equipment.

H

Also, FSN signed their HD carry agreement with Comcast last week. All FSNs in Comcast markets will start popping up. FSN-RM already does the games in HD in anticipation of this happening and now its here. Although, no start date has been revealed, it may take the start of a new fiscal in July for it to happen.
Now if D* would just get a clue! :( There's lots-o-football on the FSN's, and having some of those games in HD would be great!
....jc

I know of people up here(50+ miles from Denver) who have bought HD tuners(not an HD TV) because(if they can receive the station) the picture will be crystal clear, no noise or fuzz. They like the fact that they are watching 'DVD quality' TV, even it's not an HD program and it's being viewed on SD set.
....jc

We've got people in Utah that are 300-400 miles away and getting "crystal clear" reception, thanks to low-power DTV translator stations.

BTW: The lottery for DTV "companion" channels is coming up in a few days. So, maybe translators are on the horizon for many cities and towns.

Pete just emailed me and said he will be on the Mike Rosen Show tomorrow (Wednesday) KOA 850AM at 10am MT for another episode of that Colorado favorite... 'Tower Talk'.

http://koaradio.com/pages/shows_rosen.html

He would love some calls from our side.

1) 7.1 is pretty good, but seems to be slightly granier, but also has these little black spots - may four pixels in size - that come and go quickly and randomly on the screen. The best way to describe it is that it looks like fleas hopping around on the screen.



Doug, I have noticed the exact same artifact on 7.1 recorded from an HDTivo and displayed on a 43-inch plasma with the same vertical resolution you have (768 lines). These artifcats look different than any other type of MPEG or digital artifact I have seen, and show up regardless of whether I set my HDTivo box to send out a native (720p) signal or a 1080i signal. Since I don't get them on any other HD channel, I think it is just a bad interface between the 7.1 signal and a 768 line display. I will try to confirm this by connecting the HDTivo to an older, CRT-based HDTV and check whether I get the same artifacts. Please let me know if you have any luck on your end (and is anyone else seeing these crawling fleas?).

BTW, that speak-out article in the RMN was well written, but there was one key typo (see if you can spot it): "but because of ignorance in fighting the transmitter, it appears Golden will have no pubic TV in 2009."

JP

I've been a lurker big time in this forum and this is my first post. I'm just getting up to speed with this so apologies if this post doesn't look the way it should. JMartinko, I'd tell your friend to make sure he gets paid upfront in regards to Altitude. .....................

Fortunately his business is with Kroenke Enterprises and he deals directly with Kroenke and the front offices of the Nuggets and Avs. He knows Kroenke very well and he has talked about Altitude with him often. He doesn't deal directly with Altitude in his business so I know he is safe as long as WallMart profits are still healthy. Sorry to hear about all the problems at Altitude, but you knew they would have problems, especially last year without any hockey right when they started up. It would sound like they seriously NEED the revenue stream from D* and E*, and all I said was that Kroenke does want to be on them. That is in dramatic contrast with the Comcast sports networks that do Flyers games (my other hockey team, I lived there 15 years), and Caps games in the east. Comcast has refused to sell their HD feeds to any satellite service, that is why you rarely see even an SD telecast of a Flyers home game on Center Ice with the Philly broadcasters. At any rate, let's hope they work something out with D* since I am stuck with them because of NFLST.

....FSN-RM already does the games in HD in anticipation of this happening and now its here. Although, no start date has been revealed, it may take the start of a new fiscal in July for it to happen.

I thought that FSN-RM was one of only two FSN's that did not offer HD to ANY carrier. Are you suggesting that may change soon?

I thought that FSN-RM was one of only two FSN's that did not offer HD to ANY carrier. Are you suggesting that may change soon?

Then of course there is still the 'larger' issue, HD or SD, why on earth would I want to watch a Rockies game????

They have a pretty waterfall out by the bullpens...

Then of course there is still the 'larger' issue, HD or SD, why on earth would I want to watch a Rockies game????

Yes they are bad right now. All of FSN-RM's game production is done from an HD truck. They have a deal in place with Directv and Dish to carry, but you know the story, limited bandwith and they take the broadcast from the away market to accomodate (usually) bigger cities. But, yes, they have signed a deal with Comcast and this should change soon.

BTW-When FSN had the Avs and Nugs (the last year), they were doing 90% of their broadcasts from an HD truck and down converting. They were usually duel feed trucks sent back to the other teams home market. FSN was not able to complete a deal with Comcast due to the "bigger" picture of being tied into a corporation. Everything is tied to carriage of other channels. All FSN markets where Time Warner is the dominant carrier had this issue cleared about two years ago I believe. The markets with Comcast (maybe two I don't know) have not been activated. But, will be soon. Again, not a rumor.

Also, FSN has completed their new transmission line from Coors Field, so for those that do watch baseball, the picture should be noticably clearer.

The Rox will get better. It seems after the USA article about their "faith in God" he has decided to mess with them a little. :)

They have a pretty waterfall out by the bullpens...which has been pretty quiet lately. the hitters are trying to preserve water because of the drought, maybe

Yes they are bad right now. ..........................The Rox will get better. It seems after the USA article about their "faith in God" he has decided to mess with them a little. :)

Don't be too sure they will get better, I am not convinced even "divine intervention" would be enough for that sorry franchise. To be honest though, I haven't been much of a baseball fan for the last 20 years or more, so I sure can't be considered a 'fan'.

BTW, Hollin, welcome to the forum and welcome to our thread. It sounds like you either work or did work for FSRM or at least work in the business. Your inputs will be appreciated. Welcome aboard and our apologies up front for the fact that with all of our efforts, we still don't have much to show for our work in the HD OTA front.

Sorry to be off topic, but I'm moving to Brighton.. anyone have any advice for convincing my HOA to allow my roaf-top antenna? They insist it's not allowed... Should i just give up and try to cram it in the attic?

Sorry to be off topic, but I'm moving to Brighton.. anyone have any advice for convincing my HOA to allow my roaf-top antenna? They insist it's not allowed... Should i just give up and try to cram it in the attic?
Do you want links to the congress rules?

HOA have no authority - I was VP of my board and knew about the rules.

Reggie

Sorry to be off topic, but I'm moving to Brighton.. anyone have any advice for convincing my HOA to allow my roaf-top antenna? They insist it's not allowed... Should i just give up and try to cram it in the attic?
No. Just put the antenna up. They are trying to enforce an unenforcible 'law'. Their Law!
....jc

Sorry to be off topic, but I'm moving to Brighton.. anyone have any advice for convincing my HOA to allow my roaf-top antenna? They insist it's not allowed... Should i just give up and try to cram it in the attic?
Here's the federal government's opinion on the matter: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

You wouldn't happen to be moving into the Platte River Ranch development, would you?

No. Just put the antenna up. They are trying to enforce an unenforcible 'law'. Their Law!
....jc
If you have not shown them the FCC rules passed by congress - do so now - don't depend on them knowing where to look.

But the process is they have to fine you. At some point in time the fines get to where they can get a lean on the house through their lawyer. Clearly you can counter sue for your costs in small claims.

adam,
Let us know what happens after you send them the FCC rules. We all love to hear their responses!!!

Because most of us have no lives ;)

It sounds like you either work or did work for FSRM or at least work in the business.

Its the third, I wish I had some real behind the scenes scoops, but I'm just in a position to know things when they go "kinda" public first.Everything I get is just in pre press release form. But, I do have some knowledge that will hopefully help out. Thats why I've waited to be relevant. But, I'm sick and tired of the Golden situation and only through education and gathering more supporters will this stupid thing end. I just saw another LCG commercial on 20 and I like it. Simple message explaining the big consequences of Golden and (s)CARE's tactics. I believe that is how you all abbreviate it. Hey, if my wife sees it and understands it, they're getting somewhere. She is no dummy, but not a technical person at all.

Also, I too had an HOA problem here with a HDTV antennae, but overcame it due to help from this and other forums. HOA's remind me of that David Spade commercial where they company always says no.

And I'll throw something out there, but its a gut feeling and nothing more. If I were a betting man, Comcast buys Altitude within two years. But, the good thing is that it wouldn't be a Philly situation where it would be cable only due to its current transmission. Stan is making millions here in Denver with the teams, Pepsi Center and Commerce City development. (That was one of his smartest moves.) Altitude is a drain and been way behind budget ever since starting. Stan was sold a bill of goods and Jim Martin hasn't delivered. They were even contemplating getting out of their current Hallmark digs and developing a studio in Lodo, but those plans along with a lot of staff are long gone. Only the current contract Alitiude has with the teams is a major stumbling block. Believe it or not, once those contracts left FSN, they suddenly became profitable. Nothing earth shattering, but profitable in long time none the less. With those contracts Altitude saddled themselves wit,h (try figuring that one out, they're the same company, but you don't make billions by giving one part of the company a pass over another) FSN would pass on getting them back.

We've got people in Utah that are 300-400 miles away and getting "crystal clear" reception, thanks to low-power DTV translator stations.

BTW: The lottery for DTV "companion" channels is coming up in a few days. So, maybe translators are on the horizon for many cities and towns.

You know, Ken, it wouldn't be the worse thing in the world.

The only challenge I see is getting communities throughout the front range to accept the translators. If one antenna on Lookout Mountain is a problem, I can imagine many smaller antennas being distributed all over the place as potentially moreso.

But let's cross our fingers, think good thoughts, and watch Wayne Dyer's show on the PBS beg-a-thon and ask our "Source" to provide us with the plenty of HD/Digital translators far and wide.

Now if we could only get KBDI to run a translator into Denver's western suburbs!!!

;o)

Also, FSN signed their HD carry agreement with Comcast last week. All FSNs in Comcast markets will start popping up. FSN-RM already does the games in HD in anticipation of this happening and now its here. Although, no start date has been revealed, it may take the start of a new fiscal in July for it to happen. H

If true, I'm going to have a very delighted 75 year old father.

I checked the FSN web site and although they mention many markets for FSN-HD, Denver is not mentioned.

May I ask where you saw this info, Hollin?

Here is the FSN-HD URL for their June HD schedule. Maybe Denver will show up in July? I'm hoping!

http://nmsn.foxsports.com/name/HD

And I'll throw something out there, but its a gut feeling and nothing more. If I were a betting man, Comcast buys Altitude within two years.

I'm hoping beyond hope that Gannett somehow gets control of Altitude and broadcasts its content on the soon-to-be former UPN 20.

With the UPN-WB merger, Channel 2 will survive. Channel 20 is left twisting in the wind. Now that Gannett owns in (Channel 9's parent corp), they're going to need something with which to fill the time.

So... here's hoping!

I hate to say it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see 20 go all hispanic 24/7.
-----------

Remember, "Tower talk" on Mike Rosen KOA850 at 10am. Anybody going to record it?

I hate to say it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see 20 go all hispanic 24/7.We already have outlets for Univision, Telemundo, and Telefutura. Is there another network we are missing that would want to pick up 20/19?

Maybe a new one. SP-NBC (Just my guess) I read that KMGH is planning a 24 hr Hispanic news channel for one of their sub-channels. That's a new channel, not afffiliated with any of the current spanish-speaking networks. This is the fastest growing demographic. We will no doubt see new channels in the future.

[...]Anybody going to record it?

I'm on it.

I'm hoping beyond hope that Gannett somehow gets control of Altitude and broadcasts its content on the soon-to-be former UPN 20.

With the UPN-WB merger, Channel 2 will survive. Channel 20 is left twisting in the wind. Now that Gannett owns in (Channel 9's parent corp), they're going to need something with which to fill the time.

So... here's hoping!

Well the current thought is to not allow any OTA of Avs or Nugs products due to the contractual delivery Altitude has with cable providers. By allowing the games to go OTA they wouldn't be able to command the premium they are asking on rights fees, thus the creation of Altitude 2 on days that basketball and hockey have in common. Altitude doesn't want to pay for the airtime and then sell the inventory within the game, like the arrangement FSN has with KTVD.

But, I completely agree with you. OTA Avs and Nugs would be awesome.

Don't be too shocked to see KWGN as least shut down their newscast. With KUSA starting their 9pm newscast on 20 with Mark Koehlbich and Bazi Kanni (I'm sure I'm misspelling), the demos do not favor KWGN. Especially when they are 2 and 3 on Comcast.

KTVD always has the option to sign on to Fox's My Network TV. But, I'm not sure how appealing it is to the viewers, but it is economically favorable to them as far as reverse compensation goes.

If you have not shown them the FCC rules passed by congress - do so now - don't depend on them knowing where to look.

But the process is they have to fine you. At some point in time the fines get to where they can get a lean on the house through their lawyer. Clearly you can counter sue for your costs in small claims.

Thanks! I haven't done anything yet. I'm going to go the route of leans and lawsuits, it's just not worth it. They require "permission" to put up a TV Antenna, so my process I think will be to request permission in writing siting the FCC rules. We'll see what happens... I haven't seen one antenna in the subdivision, so I'm not sure if they'll allow it..

Here's the federal government's opinion on the matter: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

You wouldn't happen to be moving into the Platte River Ranch development, would you?


Thanks! No, Bromley Creek.

Just got out of a meeting and turned on KOA. I hear Pete and Marv are still on but no Deb Carney. Can't imagine why she isn't there to defend her position, and no one from Golden either. Gee, it's almost like they are afraid to debate the facts in public......??????? Did I miss anything earthshaking.

World Cup fans..... as you probably know, some games are on ABC in HD on the weekends. However, I just found out that KMGH 7 is NOT planning to broadcast all of the ABC games. For example, the 7 am game is not scheduled for this sat june 11 (neither on analog or digital OTA channels).

Please email KMGH and ask (nicely) that they broadcast all of the ABC world cup games.

Update: I got a response saying the FCC required them to broadcast a certain amount of childrens TV, and that I could get it on Comcast (but why would I pay for that when I can get OTA HDTV for FREE ?). Sounds like a lame excuse to me. I'm sure they could have shuffled the schedule around to accomodate it.

The Mike Rosen Show with Pete and Marv from LCG (Episode 2)
(Hours 1 and 2 Runtime 101:38)

Broadband Version (http://users.wbecin.net/mttrails/AVS/Mike%20Rosen%20-%20With%20Pete%20Marv%20LCG Episode2 HQ.mp3) 29.1MB
(FM Radio Quality)

Dial-Up Version (http://users.wbecin.net/mttrails/AVS/Mike Rosen%20-%20With%20Pete%20Marv%20LCG Episode2%20LQ.mp3) 7.28MB
(AM Radio Quality)

(And Ernie, if you could host these on your server, I would really appreciate it, because I am out of room on mine right now)


EDIT: These files can now be found at the Denver DTV website (http://www.denverdtv.info/).

I would if I were in town. I am travelling the next 3 days. If you have to, save it and I can upload it when I get back on Saturday.

I bet Marv/Steve will upload too. They did the 1st show.

We'll see what happens... I haven't seen one antenna in the subdivision, so I'm not sure if they'll allow it..
I guess that's the point. In an effort to keep their little environment 'pristine'(Geez, kinda sounds like sCARE doesn't it?) they are attempting to override a Federal Law. That law being the Telecommunications Act of 1996. In one way or another you agreed to abide by the covenants of the community when you purchased a lot there. However, the particular covenant that specifies that antennas may not be erected, is trumped by federal law. So, in essence, they are attempting to restrict your freedom.
The rule applies to state or local laws or regulations, including zoning, land-use or building regulations, private covenants, homeowners' association rules, condominium or cooperative association restrictions, lease restrictions, or similar restrictions on property within the exclusive use or control of the antenna user where the user has an ownership or leasehold interest in the property.
And what they are trying to do is:
A local restriction that prohibits all antennas would prevent viewers from receiving signals, and is prohibited by the Commission's rule.

So, to put that particular coventant into laymans terms: It Doesn't Mean JackShit!

They no doubt know this, and are attempting to illegally influence you. They also know, that they have no right to do this, and that they will lose any legal challenge to this particular covenant. So, it's a 'scare tactic', and when challenged, it's likely that they will allow an antenna or face a loss in court.
....jc

In listening to portions of the show, they read a letter from Ernie who lives on Lookout. The gist of the message was that the NIMBYS had not moved off the mountain, despite the so called danger, and that it was all about property values and greed. The talking heads agreed. :p
....jc

Given the things people on this site know about, I expect to remain a newbie the rest of my life. The only useful information I can impart to others at this point is "yes, you can get HD with an antenna." My questions:

There are lots of mentions of the transmissions from RP being "low power." Then there are lots of mentions that the HD signal can be less than "full" or "HD lite." Am I correct in assuming these things are not the same?

My assumption from context is that "low power" means the distance the signal will reach, but if you recieve it, then it is just as good as full power. Or, to put it another way, it does not have to do with the amount of data in the signal, but only how far the signal reaches. Is that right?

But the other references (like HD lite) are all about the amount of data being carried, and thus the quality of the signal. True? If that is true, how does one know what channels or networks are broadcasting in a better signal (other than looking at the reception on your TV)? You guys all seem to know. How do you know?

Finally, for anyone with the patience to read this far, what is the relationship between HD lite or not lite, and broadcasting in 1080 or 720? I assume those are not synonyms either, and you can have lite in both 720 and 1080.

There are lots of mentions of the transmissions from RP being "low power." Then there are lots of mentions that the HD signal can be less than "full" or "HD lite." Am I correct in assuming these things are not the same?
Yes.

My assumption from context is that "low power" means the distance the signal will reach, but if you recieve it, then it is just as good as full power. Or, to put it another way, it does not have to do with the amount of data in the signal, but only how far the signal reaches. Is that right?
Yes.

But the other references (like HD lite) are all about the amount of data being carried, and thus the quality of the signal. True? If that is true, how does one know what channels or networks are broadcasting in a better signal (other than looking at the reception on your TV)? You guys all seem to know. How do you know?
Either good eyes :p , or some people have software that can display the bit rate.

Finally, for anyone with the patience to read this far, what is the relationship between HD lite or not lite, and broadcasting in 1080 or 720? I assume those are not synonyms either, and you can have lite in both 720 and 1080.
Yes.

Doug, I think you've got the picture(bad pun dude). Sorry. :confused:
....jc

There are lots of mentions of the transmissions from RP being "low power." Then there are lots of mentions that the HD signal can be less than "full" or "HD lite." Am I correct in assuming these things are not the same?
...
Finally, for anyone with the patience to read this far, what is the relationship between HD lite or not lite, and broadcasting in 1080 or 720? I assume those are not synonyms either, and you can have lite in both 720 and 1080.Your understanding is correct on all counts.

Low power refers to the signal strength of the station. With analog that would directly affect picture quality and you would see a steady degradatin the further you are from the station. With digital there is an all or nothing "cliff effect" - if your signal is marginal you may get pixellation and dropouts, but otherwise there is no difference between a signal that is good enough and one that is twice a strong. So the main effect of low power is how far the signal will carry and how much trouble you have to go to (fancy antennas, etc.) to get it.

HD-lite refers to whether the bitstream has been squeezed to less than the full 19.2 Mbps that the ATSC spec would allow. By comparison, a DVD is around 8 to 10 Mbps.

720p and 1080i are both HD formats which can make good use of the entire 19.2 Mbps if it is available. General consensus is that squeezing a 1080i program will show more visual degradation than the same amount of squeezing for a 720p program.

So, to put that particular coventant into laymans terms: It Doesn't Mean JackShit!

They no doubt know this, and are attempting to illegally influence you. They also know, that they have no right to do this, and that they will lose any legal challenge to this particular covenant. So, it's a 'scare tactic', and when challenged, it's likely that they will allow an antenna or face a loss in court.
....jc

Agreed, however I'm not willing to let it go THAT far. It's definately in my best interest to attempt to get them to give me 'permission' even though I don't technically have to..

To put it anohter way, maybe they would allow the antenna vs. going to court, but I would probably start incurring fines for my bushes being to big or my tree being the wrong kind, etc.. probably not worth going down the road of pisssing them off.

Hopefully armed with the law they'll give their approval.

Agreed, however I'm not willing to let it go THAT far. It's definately in my best interest to attempt to get them to give me 'permission' even though I don't technically have to..
I guess that you could look at it 2 different ways: He's submissive, he won't be a problem; or We've got to watch it, we can't push him too much...

To put it anohter way, maybe they would allow the antenna vs. going to court, but I would probably start incurring fines for my bushes being to big or my tree being the wrong kind, etc.. probably not worth going down the road of pisssing them off.
Yup, there was another thread dealing with this exact topic. The 'victim' stated that he wanted to wait until he passed his Landscape Inspection before pursuing his antenna. Landscape Inspection? I guess that I believe that there is enough external control of our lives, and going home every night to more control, wouldn't work for some of us.

Hopefully armed with the law they'll give their approval.
What choice do they have? Oh yea, you'll be labeled a 'Bad Apple', and they will be on you like 'Stink On Sh*t'. I do understand the desire to insure that property values are 'protected', but some of these places are taking things a bit too far.

Also, check out the movie The Colony with Hal Linden. It seems like this fictional movie, is a prediction of the future.

I can also see the signs to the subdivision:

Bromley Creek, another Fine sCARE Community

Y

HD-lite refers to whether the bitstream has been squeezed to less than the full 19.2 Mbps that the ATSC spec would allow. By comparison, a DVD is around 8 to 10 Mbps.

720p and 1080i are both HD formats which can make good use of the entire 19.2 Mbps if it is available. General consensus is that squeezing a 1080i program will show more visual degradation than the same amount of squeezing for a 720p program.

Alright, here is where I put my ignorance on full display. From what I hear, but don't understand, current Mbps put out by OTA stations will only last three years before technology catches up and the Mbps go up exponentially to take care of 1080p (well past 1080i) and beyond. (I know one OTA channel is waiting for this to happen to upgrade) So those subchannels, in the future three years out, will not affect HD quality. Is this true? And can someone explain it beyond the "technology is always improving" argument. Again, sorry for the ignorance. But, I've heard 100 Mbps per second on OTA is right around the corner. But, I have no basis to understand or believe.

I would if I were in town. I am travelling the next 3 days. If you have to, save it and I can upload it when I get back on Saturday.

I bet Marv/Steve will upload too. They did the 1st show.

Thanks Ernie. I think I can keep it online untill then.

Alright, here is where I put my ignorance on full display. From what I hear, but don't understand, current Mbps put out by OTA stations will only last three years before technology catches up and the Mbps go up exponentially to take care of 1080p (well past 1080i) and beyond. (I know one OTA channel is waiting for this to happen to upgrade)Unless there's something in the ATSC spec that allows for this that I'm not aware of, no, this can't happen. Home satellite dish services are moving from MPEG2 compression to MPEG4 compression that in theory would allow for greater bandwidth (instead they'll just cram in more useless channels), but the decoding mechanism is baked into ATSC.

Or, this can't happen without replacing all the ATSC tuners already on the market.

Unless there's something in the ATSC spec that allows for this that I'm not aware of, no, this can't happen. Home satellite dish services are moving from MPEG2 compression to MPEG4 compression that in theory would allow for greater bandwidth (instead they'll just cram in more useless channels), but the decoding mechanism is baked into ATSC.

Or, this can't happen without replacing all the ATSC tuners already on the market.

The modulation (VSB-8) and transport layers would have to stay the same but....

My understanding is the TV stations are only obligated to carry a single free ATSC-compliant SD signal in their multiplex after the transition date to fulfill the obligations of their license. The remaining bandwidth is theirs to use as they see fit. In theory, they could carry a 1.5 to 3 Mbps SD signal as their primary broadcast channel then fill the remaining channel capacity with whatever they want.

One example would be two H.264-encoded HD pay channels requiring an external decoder of their own design. That would allow them to comfortably fit one SD and two full-resolution HD signals in their multiplex. Of course, your HDTV would only receive the SD signal.

Another example would be to sell a fraction of the extra bandwidth to Tivo and/or MovieBeam to deliver programming to their decoders.

-Glen

Agreed, however I'm not willing to let it go THAT far. It's definately in my best interest to attempt to get them to give me 'permission' even though I don't technically have to..

To put it anohter way, maybe they would allow the antenna vs. going to court, but I would probably start incurring fines for my bushes being to big or my tree being the wrong kind, etc.. probably not worth going down the road of pisssing them off.

Hopefully armed with the law they'll give their approval.

Just put up the antenna.

No approval needed (except from any significant other).
The HOA has NO power to allow or disallow the antenna.

They have NO right to harass you about it, and NO right to make you jump thru hoops to "request permission" for it either. It is out of their authority. The first message you get on it, reply ONLY with the aforementioned federal statute. Do NOT bow to their ILLEGAL demands.

Why waste the time?

# Matt

Thanks for posting the audio for the Mike Rosen Show. It was interesting that last time, many opponents of the LCG called in, but this time they did not.

However, I am now confused about the next step.

At about 60:18 into to recording, a guy named Mike called in and asked if the remand made previous approvals open for ruling. Pete answered that No, the opposition (CARE) would like you to believe everything is open, but the judge has already ruled those are settled issues... The only thing on the table is multiple tower failure.

If this is true, why is CARE calling this a victory?

I have re-read the order and it says:
There does not appear to be a need for additional evidence. The record is voluminous, and all interested parties on both sides of the debate have been given an ample opportunity to be heard. The responsibility of the Board now is to review the record and then to make a decision on the proposed rezoning.
<clip>
The Court will affirm whatever decision is made, so long as it can be shown that there is competent evidence in the record that supports the decision.
<clip>
Whether the Board takes further argument or evidence is for the Board to determine.

I do not see where the Judge says the only issue to be ruled on is multiple tower failure. I also do not see where the judge explicitly says that everything is open. (he did say "review the record", but not for what.)

If the BCC can only rule on multiple tower failure, then it seems very likely that LCG will win. If they can rule on everything, what will they do? Will they want to open it all up again?

-Wabisabi

Thanks for posting the audio for the Mike Rosen Show. It was interesting that last time, many opponents of the LCG called in, but this time they did not.

However, I am now confused about the next step.

At about 60:18 into to recording, a guy named Mike called in and asked if the remand made previous approvals open for ruling. Pete answered that No, the opposition (CARE) would like you to believe everything is open, but the judge has already ruled those are settled issues... The only thing on the table is multiple tower failure.

If this is true, why is CARE calling this a victory?

I have re-read the order and it says:


I do not see where the Judge says the only issue to be ruled on is multiple tower failure. I also do not see where the judge explicitly says that everything is open. (he did say "review the record", but not for what.)

If the BCC can only rule on multiple tower failure, then it seems very likely that LCG will win. If they can rule on everything, what will they do? Will they want to open it all up again?

-Wabisabi

What his ruling says had to be taken in the context of what issue is before him. In other words, what did the Bd. rule, and what was appealed to him. I have not read the order so I cannot tell from this excerpt. I presume that the order has a summary up front of some kind stating the issue before him. I assume from the use of the word "rezoning" that the Bd decision under review is broader than than tower failure, but if tower failure was the Bd's only basis to deny rezoning, then that is the only issue up for grabs. When he says the Bd. must find "competent evidence" of tower fialure, that is not a very high standard. It can't be nothing, and it can't just be lawyers speculating, but if somebody found a competent tower engineer to say it might happen, that might well be enough, no matter what some other expert says. It's not like a civil trial where you weigh both sides, and the side with the best story wins. Bd decisions are given great deference, and are upheld unless found to be essentially unsupported. He has not closed the evidence, so I presume if the Bd doesn't want this tower, all they need to do is ask any party if they have an expert they would like to put on. All of this is written without me knowing what evidence the Bd heard, but I gathered not much on that issue.

I found the article a the following link of marginal interest. Thought I'd pass it on.

I'm going to follow up with the writer about the HD-lite issue on satellite and how tight-lipped local cable operator, Comcast, is about increasing HD channel offerings in Denver and how they appear to be ignoring communities north of Metro Denver.

The gist of it is cable companies stand to lose tons of market share if they don't act quickly to increase HD. I know Comcast has had bad numbers in the last quarter. With the 6412 Phase III DVR, it's not a surprise.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/hidef.html

Anybody having problems with WB2 picture quality of late? For the last few nights the 9:00 News (for me anyway) has been plagued with pixelation, freezes, and audio dropouts. Signal strength last night was 83%. I'm in NE Longmont and my DTV reception is limited to 2 and 31.

Anybody having problems with WB2 picture quality of late? For the last few nights the 9:00 News (for me anyway) has been plagued with pixelation, freezes, and audio dropouts. Signal strength last night was 83%. I'm in NE Longmont and my DTV reception is limited to 2 and 31.


3 mi. east of Longmont here and I've been having the same issues but only in the evenings. The morning news has been fine.

Lets hope SCARE people do now watch CNN (what are the chances that they watch FOX?) WALB tower comes down. Try this link and click on the video of the tower removal: http://www.walb.com/Global/category.asp?C=1687&nav=menu37_2

Reggie

3 mi. east of Longmont here and I've been having the same issues but only in the evenings. The morning news has been fine.

Thanks for the confirmation, hate to think is was just me. :p Wonder if it's related to their new subchannel?

Lets hope SCARE people do now watch CNN (what are the chances that they watch FOX?) WALB tower comes down. Try this link and click on the video of the tower removal: http://www.walb.com/Global/category.asp?C=1687&nav=menu37_2

Reggie

Wow - What a story. Not that the second tower was caught in the guy wires during demolition (looks like that was an expected possibility anyway), but that the WFXL tower was still standing after getting whacked by a Chinook helicopter. :eek:

Eh, Deb will probably try to twist that into a 'sCare' spin anyways...

One of the quotes in one of the stories says the chance of both towers coming down in the demolition was 60% so the collapse of the 2nd tower was not completely unexpected.

-Glen

Anybody having problems with WB2 picture quality of late? For the last few nights the 9:00 News (for me anyway) has been plagued with pixelation, freezes, and audio dropouts. Signal strength last night was 83%. I'm in NE Longmont and my DTV reception is limited to 2 and 31.

No problems here in South Longmont. Signal has been rock-solid steady for the past 10 days. There was a very slight drop in my signal strength 10 days ago, when it went from 80-85 down to 78-83. It seems to be very stable throughout the day and night, unlike my reception from the RP stations, which tend to have a much stronger signal between 8pm and 8am.

FYI, I receive the Lookout mountain stations from a large UHF/VHF Radio Shack outdoor antenna on a 10 foot mast on the peak of my house. Signal strength is measured on an HD3000 card in my computer.

B. J. Catlin

WOWT, KETV, & KMTV towers in Omaha. The KETV tower is in the center...

http://www.panelcrafters.net/ketv_up.jpg

The upgrade didn't go as planned :o

http://www.panelcrafters.net/ketv_down.jpg
The 1,200-foot broadcast tower at KETV in Omaha, Neb., collapsed Friday, July 4(2003), at about 11:09 p.m.

The tower, which was undergoing a retrofit with a new Dielectric antenna to allow the station to begin HDTV transmission, collapsed in a populated section of the city. No one was injured, and the only property damaged was to KETV’s transmission facility.

According to station chief engineer Warren Behrens, in the days leading up to the collapse workers had removed the station’s existing RCA antenna and had replaced an antenna mounting plate at the top of the tower to accommodate the new Dielectric antenna. To replace the mounting plate, workers on Thursday, July 3, removed guy wires from the top of the tower and replaced them with temporary wires attached below the mounting plate, he said.

Winds on July 3 and July 4 during the day prevented installation of the new antenna. Work was scheduled to resume on Saturday, July 5. At the time of the collapse, Behrens said, winds were blowing at 9 miles per hour.

I guess sCARE would be disappointed. Not only was the fallen tower rebuilt, but the other towers remained standing, and no property was damaged off the site.

I guess sCARE would be disappointed. Not only was the fallen [KETV Omaha] tower rebuilt, but the other towers remained standing, and no property was damaged off the site.That appeared to be the case with the Albany, GA tower, too. These TV towers are built in sections. If it's going to fall, it's probably not going to fall like a tree. Understandably the demolition company tried to deliberately make the Fox tower fall that way so that it wouldn't take the WALB tower with it, but that doesn't mean a tower collapse would look like that.

Interestingly enough, one of the stories WALB did showed a bunch of people in Doerun, GA who miss seeing the towers.

I hope you get your reception !!!

Symbios,
I've hosted your audio files for the Rosen show on the DenverDTV.info (http://www.denverdtv.info) website.

Thanks a bunch Ernie. I really do appreciate it.

After getting back and listening to it all. There's no way any sCARE member could argue the points made. I'm sure that's why no one from Golden, JeffCo or sCARE was on the show. Even Rosen's producer asked sCARE to pick their own date, any date they wanted, and they still declined. It's because they know they've lost this one and have absolutely no grounds to debate the real facts.

The new 'anti-tower' comissioners also have no basis to vote 'no'. If they do, the judge will hold them to the fire and want to know why they voted that way. And of course, they don't have one iota of legal testimony to vote 'no' on the tower fall issue.

How can we find out the date of their vote? I'll try to email them and ask.

Ernie,

Glad you asked about the scheduling of JeffCo's vote. I was about to ask the same question!

How can we find out the date of their vote? I'll try to email them and ask.

My guess is that it is scheduled for some time in 2010

My guess is that it is scheduled for some time in 2010Hi Tim, my guess would be more like February 18, 2009, the day after analog shut-off!

Hey, by the way, I was driving by your new place and took a pic, I see you took all your antennas along. ;)

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Tims.jpg

Wow!
Now I've got "Antenna Envy" and I didn't even know there was such a thing!
See me next week on Maury Povich!

Hi Tim, my guess would be more like February 18, 2009, the day after analog shut-off!

Hey, by the way, I was driving by your new place and took a pic, I see you took all your antennas along. ;)


Wow, all that just to watch the World Cup??? Now THAT'S a dedicated fan. I wonder if his HOA has said anything yet?

Don't be too shocked to see KWGN as least shut down their newscast. With KUSA starting their 9pm newscast on 20 with Mark Koehlbich and Bazi Kanni (I'm sure I'm misspelling), the demos do not favor KWGN. Especially when they are 2 and 3 on Comcast.

I hadn't heard about this newscast. Kobrick is fine. Bazi is just dead in the eyes. Expressionless. I don't understand her popularity.

I'm sure their commitment to South Park will continue. Love that show, even though what you see on channel 20 is "tamed" for OTA.

World Cup fans..... as you probably know, some games are on ABC in HD on the weekends.

Update: I got a response saying the FCC required them to broadcast a certain amount of childrens TV, and that I could get it on Comcast (but why would I pay for that when I can get OTA HDTV for FREE ?). Sounds like a lame excuse to me. I'm sure they could have shuffled the schedule around to accomodate it.

Why didn't they just move it to 7.2?

Isn't that still active?

In years past, I discovered it was far more fun to watch on channel 50 Univision. You can pick up an excitement there that ABC just doesn't have. And by the time the tourney is over, if you don't already speak Spanish, you'll be picking out words and understanding a lot more.

One word everybody knows.... GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAL!

Why didn't they just move it to 7.2?

Isn't that still active?

In years past, I discovered it was far more fun to watch on channel 50 Univision. You can pick up an excitement there that ABC just doesn't have. And by the time the tourney is over, if you don't already speak Spanish, you'll be picking out words and understanding a lot more.

One word everybody knows.... GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAL!

It turns out that the complaints of many people actually worked! They are now showing all ABC world cup games live and in HD.
But at first, they announced the "children's programming" excuse on their station and said they couldn't show it. Then they got busted for that lame excuse, since someone pointed out that many other ABC stations in this time zone were broadcasting it. So then they had no choice but to admit that their excuse wasn't valid and showed the game live in HD!

As far as 7.2 goes, it was still on last time I checked, but the picture is not as good as on 7.1 .
Before I got HD, I often watched games on 50 (more fun), but now the HD experience outweighs that fun factor.

I just want to make sure I'm clear on something. The 26" 7 year old Mitsubishi CRT I just replaced with a new Sharp flat panel - but is still perfectly good, will become nothing but a paper weight overnight when analog goes off the air next year, right?

And that will happen in about 13 months? And that date is firm, not a "maybe"?

I'm just trying to figure out if the old TV is any good to anybody who doesn't care about HD or digital. But even for SD, it goes dead in 13 months I guess. Or am I missing something?

There will be converter boxes available that will convert the digital signal to analog for legacy TV's. The government will subsidize these boxes so that they ar available at a reasonable price, probably $50 or less.

But even for SD, it goes dead in 13 months I guess. Or am I missing something?

It's more like 33 months (Feb 2009) and even then the TV won't be completely useless:

1. Converter boxes will be available that will receive, decode, and scale the HD signal down to an SD signal for old TVs. On the low-end, expect a simple channel 3/4 RF modulator output. On the high end, YPrPb analog component outputs are possible.

2. And of course, the TV will continue to work with cable and satellite settop boxes.

-Glen

I regularly experience breakup on D*'s TNT-HD, and tonight is no exception. Anybody else have this problem? Other HD channels are always fine.
Where does TNT come from? Atlanta?

All right, so I went back and looked to see which commissioner voted in favor and now I am completely confused. J. Kevin McCasky was the only vote in favor of the tower and he represents the largest portion of Golden?!?!?

Dave Auburn is district 3, his district has zero presence in Golden (Morrison is in his district) and he voted against the towers. Who is he looking out for?

I have many family members who live in Jeffco and I was planning on writing a form letter for all of my family to send to their Commissioner.

Am I wasting my time doing this?

Is this the kind of effort that can get districts 1 and 3 to fall in line with district 2?

-Matt

Matt,
Here's the commissioners direct email addresses. You are correct, McCasky is the only one to vote YES for the consolidation tower. The other two had to vote NO because they promised to do so at a sCARE sponsored, pre-election public meeting. They just made good on their promise.

I heard from LCG today that sCARE is now attempting to lobby the commissioners to not just re-vote, but re-open the public hearings again! And it gets worse, they want them to allow ALL the old issues to be re-debated!. I don't think they can do that, but with commissioners Auburn & Congrove, they might just do it anyway and deal with the lawsuits later.

I've already emailed all of them and also thanked Commish McCasky for his support.

Direct email addresses:
Commissioner Congrove (commish1@jeffco.us)
Commissioner McCasky (commish2@jeffco.us)
Commissioner Auburn (commish3@jeffco.us)

Fellow, pro-tower zealots (I mean this in the best possible light). I have written a form letter (in word) that I plan to distribute to all my friends and family in Jefferson County District 1.

Before I send this document, I would like for you to send me any feedback concerning edits and additions that you believe I should make. I will copy and paste the body of the text below for you to scrutinize:

Commissioner Congrove,

As you are aware, Judge Brooke Jackson has ruled that your vote denying zoning for an already approved tower was not based on the facts presented into evidence by credible witness testimony or scientific evidence. This is your opportunity to do what is best for residents of Jefferson County district 1 and approve the CONSOLIDATION tower.

As my district’s County Commissioner, I call into question what evidence you heard that presented an eminent danger to residents of District 1? The only points in question that you were to decide on was concerning the power line safety, setback distance of the towers and the safety of residents/dwellings that may come into contact with a tower that fails. The evidence provided by expert testimony refutes the possibility of this type of failure, and Lake Cedar Group has acquired the rights to all dwellings in the alleged “danger zone.” These properties are no longer a public safety risk, yet you have chosen to deny the zoning application (that the prior board approved).

It appears that you are defending the rights of an incredible minority of your constituents, while trampling the rights of the majority of District 1 residents and business (yes, businesses will rely on free-to-air TV for their patrons as the cost per-channel charged by cable and satellite companies are staggering for a business). Please reconsider your position, base your decision on the facts that Judge Jackson calls “voluminous” and do what is best for Jefferson County District 1; approve the consolidation tower!

Registered voter,

Insert Name Here

Proud resident of,

Insert Home Address Here



I am also preparing a letter for my friends in district 2 (a nice letter thanking J Kevin McCasky) and a letter for residents of District 3. I believe that it will not be too difficult to sway one of these commissioners’ votes in our direction. I believe that district 3 is our best chance, but also feel that we really need to get both district 1 and 3 (I cannot imagine that McCasky will hold fast forever).

-Matt

Anybody know what's going on with 9? The digital signal is gone, and the analog signal looks like crap. The rest of the stations on RP are fine, so I know its not the antenna.

Anybody having problems with WB2 picture quality of late? For the last few nights the 9:00 News (for me anyway) has been plagued with pixelation, freezes, and audio dropouts. Signal strength last night was 83%. I'm in NE Longmont and my DTV reception is limited to 2 and 31.
I fired off an email to KWGN this morning and got this response. Thought others might be interested in seeing it.

Thanks for your note & for tuning into WB2.

We too have been seeing these problems. They appear to be originating at our studio and we are in the process of troubleshooting our systems.

Last night we dropped our sub channel, The TUBE (2.2) thinking the problem was in the multiplexer. That did not fix the problem so we are testing all devices in the path.

We hope to have this resolved soon. Thanks for your patience & interest.


Don Rooney
Director of Operations & Engineering

Quick question, is the HR10-250 HDTV recorder have a good off air receiver, have the oppurtunity to get one virtually free but dont want to degrade my off air signal, as I am solid but just so (here in Castle Rock). MY current HDTV is not a recorder however. Thanks.

The HR10-250 receiver is much better than my old RCA DTC-100 which it replaced. When KMGH had their low powered signal, the HD Tivo did a much better job picking up the signal without breakups.

Anyway, right now, I get all stations in the 90-95% range, but I am only 11 miles from RP and maybe 30 from Lookout. The receiver will lock solid at around 55-60%. I do have a 80" CM Yagi on a ten foot pole on the roof. Now that KMGH has a good signal, I could probably get by with a much smaller antenna, maybe even indoors.

I regularly experience breakup on D*'s TNT-HD, and tonight is no exception. Anybody else have this problem? Other HD channels are always fine.
Where does TNT come from? Atlanta?
Shouldn't matter where it comes from originally (but, yes Atlanta is TNT's home) since you're pulling it in from one of 3 locations: the satellite at 101, 110, or 119. Have you checked signal strength on a few transponders at each satellite location?

Quick question, is the HR10-250 HDTV recorder have a good off air receiver, have the oppurtunity to get one virtually free but dont want to degrade my off air signal, as I am solid but just so (here in Castle Rock). MY current HDTV is not a recorder however. Thanks.
[beat by Dennis]
It's better than my RCA DTC-100 was, but I'm sure there are better receivers out there now since the HR10-250 is a couple years old.

Quick question, is the HR10-250 HDTV recorder have a good off air receiver, have the oppurtunity to get one virtually free but dont want to degrade my off air signal, as I am solid but just so (here in Castle Rock). MY current HDTV is not a recorder however. Thanks.

The HR10-250 was an improvement for me over the Samsung TS 160. I have a roof mounted CM 3021 and a CM 7775 amplifier. I'm happy with the OTA reception that I receive in Castle Rock.

I think that we might be taking the wrong approach to getting the towers approved.

As much as I love Ernie's "Boycott Golden" bumper stickers and appreciate the sacrifices that Dr. Mal has made to boycott Golden (we know how much you miss Woody's Wood Fired Pizza in Golden) we need to recognize that Golden is only interested in blocking progress for their own self interest. We are only interested in furthering our self interests (except for you Ernie, the new towers mean disaster for your reception). We should give-up on Golden and fight the battles we can win.

We need to focus our efforts (or create an effort) on swaying the views of 2 commissioners, Dave Auburn and Jim Congrove. These are the 2 no votes from the last round and I think that Judge Jackson may have provided us with all the ammunition we need to sway their votes.

Attached is a link showing the 3 districts of Jeffco:
http://jeffco.us/jeffco/bcc_uploads/2004districtmap.pdf

Commissioner Auburn represents district 3. As you can see, he in no way represents Golden (unless I suck at reading a map). Why is he voting no? He must not be hearing anyone from his district in favor of the tower. If we can get south Jeffco residents to send Mr. Auburn a letter voicing their displeasure with his vote, he may begin to see his future in politics slipping away and change his view. Mr. Auburn’s district has the least to gain with a no tower vote and the most to loose (anyone that is west of Wadsworth will not get a signal from Lookout unless a translator tower is built in THEIR BACKYARD). He should be easy to sway.

Mr. Congrove does have some representation in Golden, but Lookout is not in his district. Again, a large letter writing campaign sent from his resident base could be enough to scare him into a yes vote. It appears to me that Mr. Congrove is the board member with aspirations that go beyond a mere Commissioners post. This guy wants to be a player in National politics and shutting out the majority of his constituents could spell political suicide.

So I have already crafted 3 form letters (one for each board member) and have
sent them to all my friends and family that live in Jeffco. They will be signing them and sending them to their district commissioner. If we can get a concentrated effort on this 1 task, and flood the in-boxes of these 2 council members they will change their vote!

I would be willing to sit in-front of any north Jeffco/South Jeffco grocery store with a blackberry and have shoppers sign my form letter and send it to the commissioners. Do you think that LCG would provide others to stand with wireless e-mail devices and get signatures that are immediately e-mailed to the commissioners? I want to help, I just want to see an organized effort that CAN YEILD RESULTS.

-Matt

I heard from LCG today that sCARE is now attempting to lobby the commissioners to not just re-vote, but re-open the public hearings again! And it gets worse, they want them to allow ALL the old issues to be re-debated!. I don't think they can do that, but with commissioners Auburn & Congrove, they might just do it anyway and deal with the lawsuits later.


I agree with Ernie. Just think how long it would take for all parties to get there agenda put together. It just not possible as this all takes time. Besides the Court directs the Board to proceed with all due speed . What would change nothing. It would still be myth and facts. Sounds like just another stall tactic.
Maybe its a secret they really like the four existing towers better after all.

Thanks, should have Monday if I proceed, just was curious about the quality!

Well I have written it before that this is a much larger issue than just one county can control which to means that Governor should get involved and override local jurisdiction for this.

The next Gov won't get involved until 2009, when the change-out occurs and sCARE/Golden files their injuction to stop all network OTA broadcasting in Denver.

Commissioner Auburn represents district 3. As you can see, he in no way represents Golden (unless I suck at reading a map). Why is he voting no? He must not be hearing anyone from his district in favor of the tower. If we can get south Jeffco residents to send Mr. Auburn a letter voicing their displeasure with his vote, he may begin to see his future in politics slipping away and change his view. Mr. Auburn’s district has the least to gain with a no tower vote and the most to loose (anyone that is west of Wadsworth will not get a signal from Lookout unless a translator tower is built in THEIR BACKYARD). He should be easy to sway.

Mr. Congrove does have some representation in Golden, but Lookout is not in his district. Again, a large letter writing campaign sent from his resident base could be enough to scare him into a yes vote. It appears to me that Mr. Congrove is the board member with aspirations that go beyond a mere Commissioners post. This guy wants to be a player in National politics and shutting out the majority of his constituents could spell political suicide....

-Matt

Jeffco commissioners may represent only one district; however, they are elected at large. This means the whole county votes for each commissioner. Auburn needs votes from Golden to stay elected, even though he doesn't represent Golden. So these people must campaign countywide to be elected and re-elected.

Yes, it's dumb. In reality, they don't represent a district. Each represents the whole county. You dance with the one who brung you, as the saying goes.

Another dumb thing is that Jeffco's population is more than the entire state of Wyoming. We have THREE people representing that population, whereas Wyoming has a Governor, House, and Senate representing them, along with county commissioners, city mayors, and so forth. Jeffco should be a City and County, just like Denver, IMHO, with a mayor and council whose members are actually elected by district and NOT countywide.

The current arrangement is inefficient and turns three very fallable people into GOD, whose attention and votes go to the highest bidder. This makes Jeffco among the greatest county democracies money can buy.

Hope this answers your question.

(It's still not too late for somebody from this group to gather signatures and run for commissioner as an independent. You can force a real debate on this issue wherever there are common speaking and debating engagements.)

Well I have written it before that this is a much larger issue than just one county can control which to means that Governor should get involved and override local jurisdiction for this.

Oh Lord. Bill Owens doing something meaningful. This I GOTTA see!

Did you hear what that idiot did yesterday at the unveiling of the Colorado quarter? He looked at a quarter and said, "Oh my. They misspelled Denver". It was his lame attempt at a joke (no city name is on ANY quarter, and there is only a small D or P below "In God We Trust" to signify which mint it came from). No sooner did he say it that it hit the Internet, with people offering $100 a coin for one with the ficticious misprint.

He also has a significant problem with Home Rule, a condition given to municipalities in the state to pretty manage their own business. He would likely have to reconvene the state legislature to deal with this, meaning he'd have to bring in legislators from Grand Junction, Telluride, et al, to deal with a local, metro Denver issue, at the cost of $20,000/day. He's willing to do that over illegal immigration (even though the state supremes were spot on right about Douglas Bruce's Amendment banning more than one subject from being incorporated into a referrendum or initiative), but I doubt he'd do it over this issue. He and his wandering baby-maker are running for the US Senate, not Mayor of Denver. Illegal aliens will gain him cred for that, but not the tower issue.

Gotta think in terms of political logic and not moral logic to win this struggle.

You guys could petition to have this put on the ballot, you know. And you should.

Well the towers are a much larger problem than just metro Denver just ask the people who live outside of that area. I understand that bringing in the legislature is not an option except while they are in for the immigration issue maybe slip this in? The fact is this affects public safety and could be argued that the state right does supersede the local county.

Fellow, pro-tower zealots (I mean this in the best possible light). I have written a form letter (in word) that I plan to distribute to all my friends and family in Jefferson County District 1.

Before I send this document, I would like for you to send me any feedback concerning edits and additions that you believe I should make. I will copy and paste the body of the text below for you to scrutinize:

Commissioner Congrove,

As you are aware, Judge Brooke Jackson has ruled that your vote denying zoning for an already approved tower was not based on the facts presented into evidence by credible witness testimony or scientific evidence. This is your opportunity to do what is best for residents of Jefferson County district 1 and approve the CONSOLIDATION tower.

As my district’s County Commissioner, I call into question what evidence you heard that presented an eminent danger to residents of District 1? The only points in question that you were to decide on was concerning the power line safety, setback distance of the towers and the safety of residents/dwellings that may come into contact with a tower that fails. The evidence provided by expert testimony refutes the possibility of this type of failure, and Lake Cedar Group has acquired the rights to all dwellings in the alleged “danger zone.” These properties are no longer a public safety risk, yet you have chosen to deny the zoning application (that the prior board approved).

It appears that you are defending the rights of an incredible minority of your constituents, while trampling the rights of the majority of District 1 residents and business (yes, businesses will rely on free-to-air TV for their patrons as the cost per-channel charged by cable and satellite companies are staggering for a business). Please reconsider your position, base your decision on the facts that Judge Jackson calls “voluminous” and do what is best for Jefferson County District 1; approve the consolidation tower!

Registered voter,

Insert Name Here

Proud resident of,

Insert Home Address Here



I am also preparing a letter for my friends in district 2 (a nice letter thanking J Kevin McCasky) and a letter for residents of District 3. I believe that it will not be too difficult to sway one of these commissioners’ votes in our direction. I believe that district 3 is our best chance, but also feel that we really need to get both district 1 and 3 (I cannot imagine that McCasky will hold fast forever).

-Matt

Since you asked for comments - It is "imminent", not "eminent." Eminent means famous or impressive, like a King. What is an "incredible minority?" I assume you mean a minority that is taking an unsupported, and thus incredbile, position. But the way it's worded that is less than clear. Your statement about questioning what evidence he relied on is a statement, not itself a question, unless you reword it. Don't put consolidation in all caps, use a period rather than an exclamation point at the end, and delete "registered voter" and "proud resident of."

Well the towers are a much larger problem than just metro Denver just ask the people who live outside of that area. I understand that bringing in the legislature is not an option except while they are in for the immigration issue maybe slip this in? The fact is this affects public safety and could be argued that the state right does supersede the local county.

Oh, don't misunderstand me. I'm with you. This is a HUGE public safety issue, and is actually part of the Homeland Security mandate.

I think that alone would be the most effective argument in favor of the tower reorganization.

The problem that reoccurs in simulations is one of compatibility of the communications electronics, including the frequencies they use.

This should be the BIG message of the pro-tower people, along with "I Want My Free TV!" And the pro-tower people need to recruit fire, police, and other public emergency first responders to this effort to give credibility to the argument. Recruit their unions into this. Throw the fear of 9/11 behind it. It's justified. And it's a real fear. Imagine Al Qaeda blowing up Chatfield Reservoir. It would be our version of Katrina. And at the moment, our emergency responders would be hamstrung because of poor communications.

As long as the municipalities don't have compatible communications, we're cooked!

From the back bench here here....

santellavision:
Thanks for hosting the recording of the radio show. It's an amusing listen (though nothing really surprising).

So, it sounds like the judge doesn't have the authority to approve the tower... He can just invalidate the commision vote based on stupidity (lack of evidence).

Is there anything to keep this thing from bouncing back and forth between the commissioners and the judge forever (or until digital ends up on the old towers)?

As long as we have the legal system we have here in the US, it can pretty much get bounced around for years and years (Just like we've all experienced). That's why we keep coming back to the '2009 Change-out' being the only way to get HD to the entire community. Sad, but true.

I don't see anything positive happening until Feb 17, 2009, and then the sh!t will really hit the fan!

As long as we have the legal system we have here in the US, it can pretty much get bounced around for years and years (Just like we've all experienced). That's why we keep coming back to the '2009 Change-out' being the only way to get HD to the entire community. Sad, but true.

I don't see anything positive happening until Feb 17, 2009, and then the sh!t will really hit the fan!

Ernie, you have got to stop being so darn optimistic about this, the stuff will still be hitting the fan for a long time after that date too. Your going to raise the expectations of the members here unrealistically.
:rolleyes:

Let's be serious here, if the stations drop analog and turn on digital, (S)CARE and Golden will sue and take it to the highest state court until they get a 'cease and desist order'. At that point the FCC will have to make a ruling about the license and broadcast rights of the stations involved (do they lose their license or does the FCC try to over-rule the state court and claim it is the same service), which will bounce it out of state court to the Federal Court. Now assuming the obviously generous (and easily fooled) citizens of Golden are willing to spend another $10M or so to take it to the Supreme Court (which now has a serious leaning toward both big business--the LCG-- and the rights of communities to seize land--Golden), "THEN" the sh!t will hit the fan. Can't wait to watch the old geezers tangle with that dilemma. That first hit on your fan will hardly leave a spot compared to the second one.

You realize there always has to be a pragmatist in the group!

prag·ma·tism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prgm-tzm)
n.
Philosophy. A movement consisting of varying but associated theories, originally developed by Charles S. Peirce and William James and distinguished by the doctrine that the meaning of an idea or a proposition lies in its observable practical consequences.

A practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems.

John,

Well, laid out (for the newbies in the group) I wonder how long it will take after Feb 17, for sCARE/Golden to get a 'cease & desist' order?

Remember, there are quite a few implications to doing this. Like, the endangerment of the entire community by in effect, 'turning off' most OTA communication to citizens for Local, State, Civil, Emergency, Amber Alert, Homeland Security notications and Severe Weather Advisories (It will be in the winter of '09)

That doesn't make Golden/sCARE look too nice. When something important effects the entire front range, then the new Gov will step in. If he had to weigh the sides... Public safety of the millions of voters vs. a few arogant, self-centered home-owners, which do you think he will side with?

Well, laid out (for the newbies in the group) I wonder how how long it will take after Feb 17, for sCARE/Golden to get a 'cease & desist' order?
I'd put money on Deb already having one drafted up and waiting for the morning of Feb 17.

John,

Well, laid out (for the newbies in the group) I wonder how how long it will take after Feb 17, for sCARE/Golden to get a 'cease & desist' order?

Remember, there are quite a few implications to doing this. Like, the endangerment of the entire community by in effect, 'turning off' most OTA communication to citizens for Local, State, Civil, Emergency, Amber Alert, Homeland Security notications and Severe Weather Advisories (It will be in the winter of '09)

That doesn't make Golden/sCARE look too nice. When something important effects the the entire front range, then the new Gov will step in. If he had to weigh the sides... Public safety of the millions of voters vs. a few arogant, self-centered home-owners, which do you think he will side with?
I really don't think the Gov (whomever is in office then) has any say or jurisdiction in the matter. At best they have a bully pulpit. I know from several years of efforts with my local (and highly influential) representatives in the legislature that they want NO part of this issue. They will all be glad to let the courts and the FCC fight it out with the participants.

So, I tune-in to watch Leno last night (Carlin was brilliant) and KUSA blew the HD switch for the first couple of minutes. Then they had some weird freeze frame of Leno/Carlin coming out of a break. This is horrible, I thought things were getting better?

So, I tune-in to watch Leno last night (Carlin was brilliant) and KUSA blew the HD switch for the first couple of minutes. Then they had some weird freeze frame of Leno/Carlin coming out of a break. This is horrible, I thought things were getting better?

The scary part is that they (9) are "The Leader" in HD. Imagine how bad the rest of them are...... :(

The scary part is that they (9) are "The Leader" in HD. Imagine how bad the rest of them are...... :(
Those of us that can't get the signals will never know. :(

Did anyone watch the Stanley Cup Game 5 last night on KUSA-DT (dr_mal)? Despite excellent signal strength it was terribly broken up audio and video for the first 5-6 minutes of the game. The rest of the game had no breakups but suffered from pixellation on fast moving pans, especially during the animated graphics of "NHL on NBC" when it zooms in to fill the screen. I'm not sure where the fault lies (production, network NBC, KUSA) but it was not what HD should be. When my wife notices, it's quite bad and obvious.

Did anyone watch the Stanley Cup Game 5 last night on KUSA-DT (dr_mal)? Despite excellent signal strength it was terribly broken up audio and video for the first 5-6 minutes of the game. The rest of the game had no breakups but suffered from pixellation on fast moving pans, especially during the animated graphics of "NHL on NBC" when it zooms in to fill the screen. I'm not sure where the fault lies (production, network NBC, KUSA) but it was not what HD should be. When my wife notices, it's quite bad and obvious.

I didn't notice any breakups on the first five minutes, but I really didn't sit down in front of the screen until the game was about 5 minutes old. I was in the kitchen getting dinner and listening and catching a glimpse when the action got hot and heavy (like the first goal). As for the pixelation, it has been pretty regular on the 'graphic' transitions, and I have assumed it was a production issue. Most of the fast moving pans where I have noticed it have been during replays, so again I take it to be a production truck issue. Frankly though, when I am watching a great hockey game, the last thing on my mind is PQ unless the picture disappears completely. YMMV.

I watched on NBC-HD out of Boston and didn't think it looked very good. I switched over and watched the 3rd and OT on CBC-HD and it looked a little better. So I don't think it was a local issue, I think it's an NBC issue.

Did anyone watch the Stanley Cup Game 5 last night on KUSA-DT (dr_mal)? Despite excellent signal strength it was terribly broken up audio and video for the first 5-6 minutes of the game. The rest of the game had no breakups but suffered from pixellation on fast moving pans, especially during the animated graphics of "NHL on NBC" when it zooms in to fill the screen. I'm not sure where the fault lies (production, network NBC, KUSA) but it was not what HD should be. When my wife notices, it's quite bad and obvious.
I've got a nasty work schedule for the next few weeks, so I didn't get home until 1:30 left in the 3rd. I didn't notice pixellation on the graphics, but I think I pretty much mentally block those anyway, so I wouldn't take my word for it.

(Yeah, I thought about TiVoing the games, but it's the finals for crying out loud. I had the NHL's official scoresheet up on one monitor here at work while I was working on the other one. What a great game with a spectacular finish.)

I watched on NBC-HD out of Boston and didn't think it looked very good. I switched over and watched the 3rd and OT on CBC-HD and it looked a little better. So I don't think it was a local issue, I think it's an NBC issue.

I don't think NBC has distinguished themselves with the PQ on these NHL telecasts. In general they leave the impression of HDLite from D*. Not nearly as crisp and clear as one would expect.

I don't think NBC has distinguished themselves with the PQ on these NHL telecasts. In general they leave the impression of HDLite from D*. Not nearly as crisp and clear as one would expect.
Don't forget KUSA is giving us HDLite as well (but with the benefit of WeatherPlus! :rolleyes: )

So, I tune-in to watch Leno last night (Carlin was brilliant) and KUSA blew the HD switch for the first couple of minutes. Then they had some weird freeze frame of Leno/Carlin coming out of a break. This is horrible, I thought things were getting better?


Ann Coulter and George Carlin on the same show. I'm surprised the venom didn't eat a hole in the floor of the set.

:D

I called KUSA last night about their forgetting to "throw the switch" for Leno and they turned it on while I was on the phone with them. Same thing happened last week, but it was their 10:00 newscast, not Leno. I thought it was pretty ironic that, for "Colorado's first and only HD newscast", they forgot to throw the switch. They are pretty nice about it, though, as they keep me on the line until they throw the switch, and then actually ask me if the HD is on. I think in the past 6 months or so I've probably called them at least a dozen times to throw the switch. I just call their newsroom number on their Contact Us page on their website.

Regarding the hockey game, I turned it on right at 6:00 PM and didn't notice any problems with pixelation, etc. I did observe the freeze on Leno last night, though.

Don't forget KUSA is giving us HDLite as well (but with the benefit of WeatherPlus! :rolleyes: )
OK you caught me, I actually wasn't watching the hockey game, I was glued to the 'weather plus' channel. Did you know the temperature in Denver often changes a degree or so about every half hour? How could you ever find that out without the 'weather channel'?
:rolleyes:

Don't forget KUSA is giving us HDLite as well (but with the benefit of WeatherPlus! :rolleyes: )

And no Dolby 5.1 until they get the equipment, which may come later this year... maybe... if and when... sorta...

:rolleyes:

Has anyone heard a start date for the Denver locals in HD on DirecTv?? The only thing I've seen is June 2006.

Has anyone heard a start date for the Denver locals in HD on DirecTv?? The only thing I've seen is June 2006.
Uh, the date that I recall is, TaDa, the 6th. So, I guess that they didn't make it. :p

Despite their new commercials, it looks like they morphed in to a 'Cable Like' company. Promises, Promises.

Actually, myself and others believe that they've really blown their HD 'rollout'.
....jc

Has anyone heard a start date for the Denver locals in HD on DirecTv?? The only thing I've seen is June 2006.

I've seen a June 28th date on a couple other sites. D* has been reasonably timely with rolling out the cities that they officially announce.

Has anyone seen or heard of a comparison of the E* locals vs. OTA?

Has anyone heard a start date for the Denver locals in HD on DirecTv?? The only thing I've seen is June 2006.

I was talking to DirectV tonight and they said locals get turned on June 28th

OK, thanks!

Wow, almost 2 days and nothing or nobody to b!tch about? What are you all mowing the lawn or something? ;)

Nope, nothing to complain about.

One thing I'm surprised about is that no one has posted reference to the Denver Post editorial today.

Wow, they actually sound like they understand the issue. Why didn't print the editorial's author? Here's the link.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_3946104

Wow, almost 2 days and nothing or nobody to b!tch about? What are you all mowing the lawn or something? ;)
Ok, fine, I'll start. :p The wind has loosened up my main antenna(WG 8200). So, I need a tower climb to tighten it down. I contacted my 'tower climbing' friend to see if he was available. Nope, he's in South Carolina at his new house. From what I understand, it's 'in the sticks'. Here was his reply:
...I get all the networks on digital with rabbit ears from my SC location.
Aaaaarrrrgggg! Do we live in the largest 'white area' in the country?
....jc

...Well, actually I was mowing the lawn!

Wow, they actually sound like they understand the issue. Why didn't print the editorial's author? Here's the link.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_3946104

I can answer that question, the article is the official editorial opinion of the newspaper and not one mans opinion. While it was written by one person it is approved by the editorial staff and will never be credited to one person.

I think this is a hage step forward when a major member of the business community with nothing to gain from HDTV comes out this strongly opposed to Golden's actions. This is better than a hundred inidvidual opinions or actions by people in the industry that stand to gain from HDTV (broadcasters, electronics retailers, etc.)

Thnak You Denver Post!!!

IIRC, the Rocky had a similar strongly worded editorial a few weeks ago.

Does any one here own (or has at least tried) a PrimeDTV PHD-100 OTA HD tuner? I'm wondering if it's any good or not, because an AVS forum member sent me a private message out of the blue the other day. He was asking me if I wanted to buy his tuner because he got cable. He wants 100 bucks for it, which doesn't seem too bad. But I don't want to pay $100 for it if it's a piece of junk. But then again, I suppose anything is better than my first gen Samsung SIR-T100...

Anybody know LCG's drop-dead date for building and consolidating? Seems to me if this tower process gets too close to cutover time, LCG will have to make the decision to keep what it's got and make plans in that regard...

Tim

It was about 10 years ago. ;)

Seriously, even if the new Anti-Tower JeffCo Commissioners voted to approve the tower, there would still be future sCARE/Golden lawsuits and LCG counter lawsuits that drag this out for years.

Technically, It would take about 2 years after getting the 'go' to actually get the tower up and running. As, after the final approval, there is still lots of construction zoning to ge approved on the physical building, electrical, fuel storage etc. That all takes time even if they have the approval for the tower. The tower should take about a year or so to put up.

I think this is a huge step forward when a major member of the business community with nothing to gain from HDTV comes out this strongly opposed to Golden's actions. This is better than a hundred inidvidual opinions or actions by people in the industry that stand to gain from HDTV (broadcasters, electronics retailers, etc.)

Thank You Denver Post!!!

But they do have something to gain. The Rocky, and because of it the Denver News Agency which also includes the Post, owns a piece of the Colorado Rockies, who broadcast some games on UPN 20.

It also may impact their ability to sell advertising in the paper to television retailers.

Everybody has a dog in this fight, whether they know it or not.

I have a confession to make to the group here on the forum. My love for golf caused me to give money directly to the city of Golden. I played golf at Fossil Trace on Friday, which is at the base of Lookout Mtn. Please forgive me for being weak at a time when we need to be strong against the City of Golden and sCare.
In retrospect, the evil towers on the mountain caused the skies to open up and throw thunder, lightning and rain down upon me. Also, the RF caused my golf ball to go astray and my my golf swing to be erratic and unpredictable.

Sincerely,