The towers cause golfers to slice, too?? That's it, where is Scare's number...
;)

It was about 10 years ago. ;)

Seriously, even if the new Anti-Tower JeffCo Commissioners voted to approve the tower, there would still be future sCARE/Golden lawsuits and LCG counter lawsuits that drag this out for years.

Technically, It would take about 2 years after getting the 'go' to actually get the tower up and running. As, after the final approval, there is still lots of construction zoning to ge approved on the physical building, electrical, fuel storage etc. That all takes time even if they have the approval for the tower. The tower should take about a year or so to put up.

Plus, isn't that the point of the eminent domain issue? If the tower gets approved, Golden is going to try to seize the land?

The reason for the 'Hostile Eminent Domain takeover' is because they were scared that Judge Jackson was going to throw out their stupid "tower fall' issue.

And they were correct, the Judge did throw out their appeal as groundless. And now by law, the JeffCo commissioners have to vote YES based on all the evidence presented. The hick-up is, the Commissioners most likely will blow-off the Judge and still vote NO. Thus, leading back to more legal BS as it would go back to the Judge again... and we all know how busy he is.

The reason for the 'Hostile Eminent Domain takeover' is because they were scared that Judge Jackson was going to throw out their stupid "tower fall' issue.

And they were correct, the Judge did throw out their appeal as groundless. And now by law, the JeffCo commissioners have to vote YES based on all the evidence presented. The hick-up is, the Commissioners most likely will blow-off the Judge and still vote NO. Thus, leading back to more legal BS as it would go back to the Judge again... and we all know how busy he is.


I don't know how long most of you have lived here, but once upon a time there was an idea called the 470 beltway. It was to be a system of connecting highways that would loop around the metro area.

You may notice that we have C-470 and E-470, that form 3/4 of the circle, but there is still 1/4 of that 470 beltway missing.

Do you know why?

The same people who are blocking these towers blocked W-470.

Don't underestimate them. I still can't get to Westminster without traveling an hour up Wadsworth. If we had W-470, I could get there in 15 minutes.

One thing that bothers me and causes me to remember the W-470 fight is how Golden appears to be circumventing the Poundstone Amendment. The Poundstone Amendment prohibited the annexation of land without the consent of the voters in the affected area. Denver was going berserk, gobbling up neighboring tracts to raise sales and property tax revenues. Lakewood tried something similar a few years back but was stopped cold. DIA only happened because the people of Aurora approved the annexation in return for certain obligations.

Does anybody know why Golden is being allowed to even contemplate what may be an unconstitutional act?

I don't know how long most of you have lived here, but once upon a time there was an idea called the 470 beltway. It was to be a system of connecting highways that would loop around the metro area.

You may notice that we have C-470 and E-470, that form 3/4 of the circle, but there is still 1/4 of that 470 beltway missing.

Do you know why?

The same people who are blocking these towers blocked W-470.


Quite true - the body that was working on this was actually driven into the ground by all of the beatings from Golden and Arvada. One positive thing is that C-DOT is working on this again, and we might get the rest of the belt some day.

Rob

Does anybody know why Golden is being allowed to even contemplate what may be an unconstitutional act?
Because even doing something that will most likely be overturned will delay progress. And in this case, right now they only need to delay a few more months until building the consolidated tower becomes a moot point; as Ernie pointed out in his post above, there won't be enough time left to have it up and running before analog cutoff in 2009.

The commissioners will undoubtedly vote against the tower because, remember, that's what they promised to do if elected.

I have a confession to make to the group here on the forum. My love for golf caused me to give money directly to the city of Golden. I played golf at Fossil Trace on Friday, which is at the base of Lookout Mtn. Please forgive me for being weak at a time when we need to be strong against the City of Golden and sCare.You're disavowed! ;)

Does anybody know why Golden is being allowed to even contemplate what may be an unconstitutional act?You answered you're own question - it "may" be illegal. Read the paper refered to in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7648249&&#post7648249). It has some very good background on the so-called "Telluride Ammendment". If you read the entire paper, you'll see that even in Telluride, the precedent has not been set to forbid extraterrestrial condemnation of private land in "home rule" cities (which includes Golden).

Got some interesting news today...
Jeffco has filed a petition to intervene in the Golden case and oppose condemnation.

Hmmm? Anybody know why? Wabisabi?

Got some interesting news today...
Jeffco has filed a petition to intervene in the Golden case and oppose condemnation.

Hmmm? Anybody know why? Wabisabi?

That seems pretty strange considering the Jeffco Commissioners (in theory) have not ruled on the towers yet unless you consider Jeffco is also seriously concerned about the potential legal precedence of the Golden land grab within it's borders. I suppose if Golden gets away with it Englewood could condemn Golden and annex it etc. etc. I would be interested to know who or what department or group is behind the 'intervention'. Wabisabi?? Anyone??

Jefferson County is very much a "private property rights" kind of county. With all the unusual contradictions that entails.

-Wabisabi

Got some interesting news today...
Jeffco has filed a petition to intervene in the Golden case and oppose condemnation.

Hmmm? Anybody know why? Wabisabi?

Odd. Is a copy of the petition available on-line anywhere? Could be worth reading...

Not that I know of. I'm sure somebody could find it. I will try to ask my secret source.

I am watching the Rockies vs. A's on FSN RM tonight and I heard Drew Goodman say that the Rockies vs.San Francisco and Barry Bonds would be on in high definition "only on FOX". What do you think he meant? The FOX game of the week on 31 is SD widescreen, and FSN-RM does not show any HD games yet. Maybe FSN RM is offering HD on cable??

I am watching the Rockies vs. A's on FSN RM tonight and I heard Drew Goodman say that the Rockies vs.San Francisco and Barry Bonds would be on in high definition "only on FOX". What do you think he meant? The FOX game of the week on 31 is SD widescreen, and FSN-RM does not show any HD games yet. Maybe FSN RM is offering HD on cable??
Not that I've seen. However, FSN-BA(Bay Area) is offering games in HD. It could also be a national game on FSN-HD. Either way, I don't know of a provider for either channel here in Colorado. :mad: And, yes, the 07/04 Rockies vs Giants game is in HD on FSN-BA.
....jc

Not that I've seen. However, FSN-BA(Bay Area) is offering games in HD. It could also be a national game on FSN-HD. Either way, I don't know of a provider for either channel here in Colorado. :mad: And, yes, the 07/04 Rockies vs Giants game is in HD on FSN-BA.
....jc
There was a rumor floating around somewhere that FSN had inked a deal with Comcast for HD carriage of FS-RM, and that some kind of service was to start in July. So maybe the home games against the Giants starting on July 3rd will be the inauguration of this service. It's not clear if/when the DBS providers might offer this coverage in the Denver DMA. There is probably nothing happening in the OTA space for this.

I am watching the Rockies vs. A's on FSN RM tonight and I heard Drew Goodman say that the Rockies vs.San Francisco and Barry Bonds would be on in high definition "only on FOX". What do you think he meant? The FOX game of the week on 31 is SD widescreen, and FSN-RM does not show any HD games yet. Maybe FSN RM is offering HD on cable??

Not through Comcast, they're not. I'd have a VERY HAPPY father if that was true.

There was a rumor floating around somewhere that FSN had inked a deal with Comcast for HD carriage of FS-RM, and that some kind of service was to start in July. So maybe the home games against the Giants starting on July 3rd will be the inauguration of this service. It's not clear if/when the DBS providers might offer this coverage in the Denver DMA. There is probably nothing happening in the OTA space for this.

Lots of rumors about July. One is the full All Digital Signal (ADS) rollout will be complete in July, freeing up lots of bandswidth. That may not good, though, if that means everybody need extra digital boxes for all TVs, VCRs and DVD recorders.

One thing was confirmed today. As of 7/22, ESPN2-HD will be available on channel 670. That leaves space for one channel between ESPN-HD and ESPN2-HD.

Can't wait to see El Copa Mundial '06 en Alta Definición. !GOOOOOOL!

I just received this message from PLAN Jeffco and thought it might be of interest. I won't reveal the source as this person is normally one of my political buddies. But this is what they're doing. I suggest this be countered factually and forcefully at the same time. Those who have the ears of the LCG movers and shakers, you may want to inform them of this strategy.

--

The PLAN Jeffco Board of Directors have testified against the Lookout Mountain Super Tower at all public hearings. The case is now back in the Commissioners lap and they have a good opportunity to make a final ruling.

If you support PLAN Jeffco's position, please let the Commissioners know. They need to know that the opponents are not a small handfull, but include citizens from all over Jefferson County who have concerns.

Following is some information prepared by Canyon Area Residents for the Environment that may be of use in a response plus the Commissioner contact information.

Thanks


SUPERTOWER ALERT

We Need Your Voices!!!

Dear Friends and Neighbors of the Golden area,

Judge Jackson has recently directed the Jeffco Commissioners to make an explicit decision-approving or disapproving Lake Cedar Group's request that Lookout Mountain be rezoned to accommodate their proposed SuperTower. The tower will rise or fall based upon this imminent decision!

WE NEED YOUR VOICES LIKE NEVER BEFORE!

Over the last several months many of us have also been subject to television ads, phone "surveys", and mailers professing the benefits of the proposed Lookout Mountain SuperTower. The goal of the Broadcasting Syndicate is to pressure our Jeffco Commissioners to approve this rezoning. But facts don't change. The Broadcasters are bad neighbors. Their ads "forgot" to tell metro Denver that:

Last month, in spite of our constant protests to the FCC over the last 9 years, readings corroborated by Jeffco confirmed that radiation on Lookout Mountain was still 125% ofthe levels permitted by Federal law.

With the proposed tower consolidation, the effective radiated power generated by the members of Lake Cedar Group and the new SuperTower will increase from 732,000 to 9,732,000 watts.

Hundreds of homes and families on the mountain and in Golden will sit in the immediate target of these beams.

The circumference of the tower will increase four-fold and piggy-backed with dozens of other transmission devices.

The tower would be accompanied with a 20,000 square foot utility building.

Industrial structures do not belong in residential neighborhoods. Proven, alternative sites exist. For help in separating fact from fiction, for help with questions and for breaking news, please log on to the new CARE web site: www..c-a-r-e.org

WHAT CAN YOU DO??

PLEASE CONTACT YOUR 3 COMMISSIONERS BY E-MAIL, PHONE, OR LETTER.

The message is simple: PLEASE DENY LAKE CEDAR GROUP'S PROPOSAL TO REZONE LOOKOUT MOUNTAIN TO ACCOMMODATE CONSTRUCTION OF A NEW SUPERTOWER. HOMES AND SUPERTOWERS ARE INCOMPATIBLE USES.

If you are a Republican, have any special qualifications, experiences with electrical interference to your home or business equipment, decreased property values, health concerns, please say that. Tell them in your own words why you feel strongly that Lookout Mountain is first, and foremost a residential community- and should not be rezoned to accommodate a new, industrial SuperTower that will increase radiation impacts for Golden and mountain residents.

Commissioner Names and Addresses are:

District 1 - Jim Congrove

District 2 - Kevin McCasky

District 3 - Dave Auburn

100 Jefferson County Parkway

Golden Co 80419

Phone: 303-271-8525

Email: commish@jeffco.us

Anybody noticing short breakups, both sound and picture, on KUSA every minute or so? Last night on 9News at 10, it was particularly annoying. I sent Don Perez an email and he responded that they weren't seeing anything. Nothing has changed on my end and signal strength is still good.

Games 6 & 7 of the finals plus the morning (6am) news yesterday and today have had those glitches. I wasn't sure if it was KUSA or a hard drive in my TiVo dying, but looking back, it's only KUSA exhibiting these symptoms.

I did not see those breakups via Comcast. I'm sure there were some, but not as frequent as you mentioned.

Hey all!

I live in Erie Colorado and I had a Terk 38 (I think) installed in my attic a couple weeks ago. As could be expected (I should have done more research before the install, not after!), it only pulls in WB, FOX, and maybe some other PBS type channels.

They are coming out tomorrow to install a Channel Master 4228, at my request. Hopefully that will be able to pull the weaker signals in.

My question is, what are your thoughts on the fate of the Terk 38? Should I leave it up there for possible future use once Lookout Mountain is up and running? Or should I just have them remove it and bank everything on the 4228?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Anybody noticing short breakups, both sound and picture, on KUSA every minute or so? Last night on 9News at 10, it was particularly annoying. I sent Don Perez an email and he responded that they weren't seeing anything. Nothing has changed on my end and signal strength is still good.

I was seeing the same thing. Signal was great, and steady.

Hey all!

I live in Erie Colorado and I had a Terk 38 (I think) installed in my attic a couple weeks ago. As could be expected (I should have done more research before the install, not after!), it only pulls in WB, FOX, and maybe some other PBS type channels.

They are coming out tomorrow to install a Channel Master 4228, at my request. Hopefully that will be able to pull the weaker signals in.

My question is, what are your thoughts on the fate of the Terk 38? Should I leave it up there for possible future use once Lookout Mountain is up and running? Or should I just have them remove it and bank everything on the 4228?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
You're in Erie? If you want a shot at all, get it out of the attic and onto the roof.

The Terk might come in handy in the attic in about 971 days when the Lookout towers convert to digital.

Dennis,
I too noticed glitches in the KUSA transmission. Not so much during the Stanley cup, but last night's news casts. I even tried to adjst my antenna (which I have not had to do since switching to the H20 receiver), but found the signal level to be quite good. I actually lost audio lock on a couple of occasions. (D* H20, signal mid seventies).

Phil P.

You're in Erie? If you want a shot at all, get it out of the attic and onto the roof.

The Terk might come in handy in the attic in about 971 days when the Lookout towers convert to digital.

Roof is not an option. Against HOA rules (I know I could fight this, but don't want to) AND ugly.

...Tell them in your own words why you feel strongly that Lookout Mountain is first, and foremost a residential community...

First and foremost it was a tower farm, long before any houses were within spitting distance. :mad:

Hey all!

I live in Erie Colorado and I had a Terk 38 (I think) installed in my attic a couple weeks ago. As could be expected (I should have done more research before the install, not after!), it only pulls in WB, FOX, and maybe some other PBS type channels.

They are coming out tomorrow to install a Channel Master 4228, at my request. Hopefully that will be able to pull the weaker signals in.

My question is, what are your thoughts on the fate of the Terk 38? Should I leave it up there for possible future use once Lookout Mountain is up and running? Or should I just have them remove it and bank everything on the 4228?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!Unless it is in the way or you have someone willing to buy it from you, I'd say leave it there. The 4228 is a UHF antenna which has good but not great capability for high-VHF band. Since some of the stations plan to move back to their VHF frequencies after analog shutoff, it's hard to say whether 4228 will still be the right choice then.

Unless it is in the way or you have someone willing to buy it from you, I'd say leave it there. The 4228 is a UHF antenna which has good but not great capability for high-VHF band. Since some of the stations plan to move back to their VHF frequencies after analog shutoff, it's hard to say whether 4228 will still be the right choice then.

Good point -- I did not know that some of the stations might go back to VHF frequencies. I think that settles it -- I'll keep the Terk 38.

KUSA: Last night's Tonight Show & From the last half todays 12 O'Clock news on, so far I have had no glitches OTA.

Roof is not an option. Against HOA rules (I know I could fight this, but don't want to) AND ugly.

Yeah, it is ugly. But not as ugly as that blank screen.

And you don't have to fight the HOA; they can't stop you from putting an ugly antenna on your own roof.

Short article in the Golden Transcript. (here) (http://www.jeffconews.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2006-06-22&-token.story=165744.112112&-token.subpub=#222)

-Wabisabi

Short article in the Golden Transcript. (here) (http://www.jeffconews.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2006-06-22&-token.story=165744.112112&-token.subpub=#222)

-Wabisabi
Thanks for the posting......can you give us insight into the Jeffco Board of Commissioners. I assume these are not the same commissioners as the zoning and planning commission which has been hearing the LCG application? Or is this just the legal arm of the same commissioners and either the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, or the commissioners are using the legal side to cover some political base they don't want to touch in public. After all the recently elected ones are on record as opposed to any towers. I don't understand.....???
:confused:

jm - this sounds like the same commissioners, but they're protecting their own interests (and power) with this move. They don't want the very unpopular eminent domain action used, but I doubt it has any bearing on their intent to approve/deny the rezoning.

If they're pro-tower, this makes sense, since they'll be able to make a decision based on the merits of the case and approve the rezoning.

If they're anti-tower, this makes sense, since they'll be perceived as the heroes when they are the ones to deny the zoning, not the pesky city of Golden who trumped their zoning.

Roof is not an option. Against HOA rules (I know I could fight this, but don't want to) AND ugly.
As a ex HOA vp - you do not have to fight it. It's federal law.

Reggie

I only watched the news and Leno last night, but there were frequent breakups both sound and picture. Motion seemed to have nothing to do with what I saw. I would actually say it was a little worse than before.

I will send Don another email.

I only watched the news and Leno last night, but there were frequent breakups both sound and picture. Motion seemed to have nothing to do with what I saw. I would actually say it was a little worse than before.

I will send Don another email.

Leno last night was 4:3 and not HD on my screen. Was it in HD on yours?

If they're pro-tower, this makes sense, since they'll be able to make a decision based on the merits of the case and approve the rezoning.

If they're anti-tower, this makes sense, since they'll be perceived as the heroes when they are the ones to deny the zoning, not the pesky city of Golden who trumped their zoning.Aptly put, David

Of course, we can only guess as to their REAL motives -- they are polititions after all!

Leno last night was 4:3 and not HD on my screen. Was it in HD on yours?
No. I forgot somebody didn't flip the switch! Nevertheless, even the 4:3 digital picture was pixelating. I was tired and went to bed after a bit of the monologue anyway.

I sent Don Perez another email. No response yet.

Huh...haven't been around for the last couple months, because frankly I've had better (for me) things to do than worry about some silly pipe dream of a consolidated Lookout Mountain. But, I had a little free time today, so I thought I'd drop in and say Hey to friends here...

So sad, that 5 or so years ago when I came on board, we were at exactly the same point we are now, with the exception that LCG is actually doing the public outreach. Not that it'll make any difference, or do any good. No wonder I just can't seem to care about this anymore.

EDIT Later: Wow, that came out really negative. Didn't really mean to to be that negative. Just burned out on it all, I guess. :)

Why are the widescreen SD shows on PBS 6.1 so much better quality than the SD shows on the other digtal channels like 4.1 and 9.1? Sometimes I have to look closely to decide if they are HD or not on 6.1, but I sure don't have to look closely on the other channels.

Why are the widescreen SD shows on PBS 6.1 so much better quality than the SD shows on the other digtal channels like 4.1 and 9.1? Sometimes I have to look closely to decide if they are HD or not on 6.1, but I sure don't have to look closely on the other channels.

I don't know the correct answer, but one possibility is that the PBS shows are real 480p content and the other shows are being deinterlaced from 480i to 480p (either by the network, the television station, or your TV) with some algorithm trying its best to fill in the missing information.

-Glen

Interesting story today from the FCC website:

The Commission announced today that it has rejected an informal objection to the license renewal of KTVD. Mr. Alfred Hislop of Golden filed the objection.

According to the letter, released today, "Mr. Hislop argues that station KTVD(TV) has not acted in the public interest by withholding 'its digital television service from the greater Denver area in order ... to obtain zoning and permission to build a facility on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County, Colorado.' Mr. Hislop states that station KTVD(TV) has placed its temporary transmitter on a building in downtown Denver fully aware that such a location could not provide coverage for the Denver area and that a different location zoned for broadcast towers could provide better coverage."

The letter goes on to say that Twenver, KTVD's licensee, argues that Hislop's objection is part of the dispute over the Lookout Mountain site, and that "Mr. Hislop is a party to zoning litigation that has delayed construction of permanent digital facilities that would provide expanded coverage of the Denver metropolitan area."

The FCC dismissed the complaint, saying it "is aware of the ongoing dispute," that a court decision is due by the end of September, and that the station is complying with its STA and the digital coverage rules.

The full letter is here (in .pdf) (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1301A1.pdf).

Nice find, dline.

Thanks.

Looks like they're trying anything and everything they can...

Interesting story today from the FCC website:

The Commission announced today that it has rejected an informal objection to the license renewal of KTVD. Mr. Alfred Hislop of Golden filed the objection.

According to the letter, released today, "Mr. Hislop argues that station KTVD(TV) has not acted in the public interest by withholding 'its digital television service from the greater Denver area in order ... to obtain zoning and permission to build a facility on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County, Colorado.' Mr. Hislop states that station KTVD(TV) has placed its temporary transmitter on a building in downtown Denver fully aware that such a location could not provide coverage for the Denver area and that a different location zoned for broadcast towers could provide better coverage."

The letter goes on to say that Twenver, KTVD's licensee, argues that Hislop's objection is part of the dispute over the Lookout Mountain site, and that "Mr. Hislop is a party to zoning litigation that has delayed construction of permanent digital facilities that would provide expanded coverage of the Denver metropolitan area."

The FCC dismissed the complaint, saying it "is aware of the ongoing dispute," that a court decision is due by the end of September, and that the station is complying with its STA and the digital coverage rules.

The full letter is here (in .pdf) (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1301A1.pdf).
Oh, that's a riot. Testify against their attempts to provide HD service, then complain to the FCC when they aren't able to provide HD.

Pick a side, Mr. Hislop! :mad:

I think he's just scraping the barrel for other ideas to kill the tower (still). If he succeeds in his objection for the license renewal, then they theoretically wouldn't need the tower. Then on to the rest of the stations.

Isn't this Hislop guy the same guy named Al who posted on here a few months back? I seem to recollect his post claiming he went around metro Denver testing signal strengths from a temp transmitter he set up near KDBI's.

Interesting, eh?

You've got a good memory. I knew the name, but thought I remembered it from hearings. Maybe I did. :o

Here's a list of search hits (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=9262934)

Interesting, eh?

You've got a good memory. I knew the name, but thought I remembered it from hearings. Maybe I did. :o

Here's a list of search hits (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=9262934)

How about Edward W. Hummers, Jr? I remember getting a letter from that guy. Cindy's lawyer.

Don

Oh, that's a riot. Testify against their attempts to provide HD service, then complain to the FCC when they aren't able to provide HD.

Pick a side, Mr. Hislop! :mad:

It sounds to me like Mr. Hislop is trying to force them to put their temporary transmitter in a location that is already zoned for broadcast towers (Squaw maybe?) before Jeffco's vote. Then, once they put their transmitter there, sCARE would go back to Jeffco and say that the Lookout tower should be rejected because they are already transmitting from an alternative site that is "good enough" (for sCARE).

Sneaky little fellers.

B.J.

Interesting story today from the FCC website:

The Commission announced today that it has rejected an informal objection to the license renewal of KTVD. Mr. Alfred Hislop of Golden filed the objection.

According to the letter, released today, "Mr. Hislop argues that station KTVD(TV) has not acted in the public interest by withholding 'its digital television service from the greater Denver area in order ... to obtain zoning and permission to build a facility on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County, Colorado.' Mr. Hislop states that station KTVD(TV) has placed its temporary transmitter on a building in downtown Denver fully aware that such a location could not provide coverage for the Denver area and that a different location zoned for broadcast towers could provide better coverage."

The letter goes on to say that Twenver, KTVD's licensee, argues that Hislop's objection is part of the dispute over the Lookout Mountain site, and that "Mr. Hislop is a party to zoning litigation that has delayed construction of permanent digital facilities that would provide expanded coverage of the Denver metropolitan area."

The FCC dismissed the complaint, saying it "is aware of the ongoing dispute," that a court decision is due by the end of September, and that the station is complying with its STA and the digital coverage rules.

The full letter is here (in .pdf) (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1301A1.pdf).

The original letter from Al must have been 'dripping' with hypocrisy.
:rolleyes:

Actually, Al has been in the forum several times. If you go back an read some of the posts from the early thread in 2000 and 2001 Al was a regular here trying to convince those of us in the thread of the 'righteousness' of (S)CARE's arguments. When confronted with facts he tended to disappear for a while. Not much has changed on that front in 5 years either.

There was a rumor floating around somewhere that FSN had inked a deal with Comcast for HD carriage of FS-RM, and that some kind of service was to start in July.

The Fox Sports web site has a schedule of HD broadcasts. FS RM is listed as having 8 games in July, begining July 3rd with the three game series against San Francisco. All are Rockies home games. Here is a link to the schedule:

Fox Sports Net HD Schedule (http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/1528343)

There is no info on which systems will carry the games in HD.

Roy

The Fox Sports web site has a schedule of HD broadcasts. FS RM is listed as having 8 games in July, begining July 3rd with the three game series against San Francisco. All are Rockies home games. Here is a link to the schedule:

Fox Sports Net HD Schedule (http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/1528343)

There is no info on which systems will carry the games in HD.

Roy
There is a report (rumor?) that FSRM HD will be picked up by D* in July as a part of the local network packages they are currently adding. There are numerous RSN's being added on the spot beam coverage according to the report, no mention yet of Altitude HD, but it would seem likely based upon the other networks being added.

D* RSN addition thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=690611)

Is it my imagination, or do prime time network shows in HD (e.g., CSI and other crime drama type shows) have a softer, almost blurrier, look to them than things like nature shows on 6.1, or even 9News or Leno or Letterman? If I turn from some nature show to a prime time drama it's like I want to reach out and focus something, particulary in indoor scenes like interrogation rooms. It's like those shows lack the "looking through a window" effect of HD. Do others have that same reaction? Is there a reason for that?

Film vs. video?

Just a quick shout out for the Fox31 folks. During the Nascar race yesterday they broke in with coverage of the shooting. They picked appropriate times to break in (during cautions, etc.) and the transfer back and forth from the network HD feed and the studio was flawless. They also kept the race braodcast in screen instead of completely showing the studio. Whoever is in charge of this should be commended for the good job IMO....

It's like those shows lack the "looking through a window" effect of HD. Do others have that same reaction? Is there a reason for that?

Maybe depth of field--in the nature scenes, the lens has a far greater depth of field making the entire scene look in focus at once. In the drama scenes, the lens's depth of field is much narrower making only the one or two actors in focus and the rest of the scene blurry or at least somewhat soft.

Is it my imagination, or do prime time network shows in HD (e.g., CSI and other crime drama type shows) have a softer, almost blurrier, look to them than things like nature shows on 6.1, or even 9News or Leno or Letterman? If I turn from some nature show to a prime time drama it's like I want to reach out and focus something, particulary in indoor scenes like interrogation rooms. It's like those shows lack the "looking through a window" effect of HD. Do others have that same reaction? Is there a reason for that?


I agree, I always assumed that was because they had to up convert some of the shows to 720p or 1080i while things like the news and Leno were filmed in those modes. Like I said, I don't know for sure. Just assuming


I am working in Orlando this week installing D* in the seat backs on one of our new planes and dying in the hotel room with a 19" square tube thats on the fritz and a signal thats worse that Comcrap. Even with all the problems we have in DEN. When we can watch true HD its great, Its easy to forget how bad a TV can look.

Is it my imagination, or do prime time network shows in HD (e.g., CSI and other crime drama type shows) have a softer, almost blurrier, look to them than things like nature shows on 6.1, or even 9News or Leno or Letterman? If I turn from some nature show to a prime time drama it's like I want to reach out and focus something, particulary in indoor scenes like interrogation rooms. It's like those shows lack the "looking through a window" effect of HD. Do others have that same reaction? Is there a reason for that?

As mentioned, its most likely the difference between video and film that you are noticing - all of the shows you say look better are recorded on video. Film is usually recorded at 24fps, while video is usally 60fps. Film must also go through a telecline process, which may affect quality. Some directors even soften for dramatic effect, to make the actresses look better, etc. Film has better resolution than video, so that is not the issue.

Some shows on film are better than others. Lost, for example, looks great.

There are tons of threads on this on AVS.

The film vs. video orgination is an issue that has been debated extensively on the HDTV Programming threads. Search that out and you will be busy for a week going through all the posts.

As mentioned, it's the frame-rate issue that gives the viewer the 'you-are-there' illusion. Both have their places and neither are right/wrong. CSI, which is shot on film (real Kodak film vs. using the Sony 950 24fps Cinealta HD video camera with a sudo-film look). CSI looks crisp and pretty much state-of-the-art in image quality. When shooting at 24fps vs. 60fps, yes, it does get a bit soft on movement. Both camera moves and people in the scenes.

... ridiculous, fact-less rants ...


Well I'm glad that none of us ever rant, especially me!
:rolleyes:

Don

Yeah, but our rants are based on real facts, and even though they are rants, they usually help, not mis-inform!

The Fox Sports web site has a schedule of HD broadcasts. FS RM is listed as having 8 games in July, begining July 3rd with the three game series against San Francisco. All are Rockies home games. Here is a link to the schedule:

Fox Sports Net HD Schedule (http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/1528343)

There is no info on which systems will carry the games in HD.

Roy

Roy, the schedule you cited is the schedule for each respective FSN station. Not the HD station.

***
Here is what the FSN HD FAQ says about which network broadcasts in HD:

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/1528357

Which regional sports networks produce HD programming?

Most of Fox's regional sports networks are slated to produce local HD programs including FSN Arizona, FSN Florida, FSN Midwest, FSN North, FSN Northwest, FSN Pittsburgh, FSN South, FSN Southwest, Sun Sports, FSN Utah, FSN West, and FSN West 2.
***

FSN Rocky Mountain is not one of them. And it's no wonder. If you are Newscorp, why spend the money on FSN-RMHD if nobody is likely to carry it (Comcast, E*, or D*) for some time, if ever?

Someone commented recently that FSN-RM was using an HD truck for the Rockies games. That is probably because they are programming to the FSN HD stations above.

Denver is still the cowtown of the broadcast world, apparently, despite being the headquarters for E*. God knows Comcrash treats Denver like a certain part of the cow's anatomy. Comcrash is forever crying about lack of bandswidth, although they can offer phone and internet service with no bandswidth problem. Strangely enough, they keep gaining market share for phone and internet and keeps losing it for cable tv. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be due to a crappy picture and lack of HD channels? They just gave us ESPN2HD, which is nice for the World Cup and for next season's college football, but I'm sure 80% of viewers would prefer TNT-HD. Fox is offering a new, national HD channel at some point this year, offering a cross-section of Fox, FX and sports programming in HD. There is no Comcrash will be able to carry it. And I begin to wonder if the rollout of new HD channels isn't going slowly because of fears about spending money on channels that few, if any, cable or satellite companies will carry them?

I found a neat website that may be of interest. HD Beat. It has various articles on HD and also offers an HD-specific broadcast schedule each day.

It also has an RSS feed.

http://www.hdbeat.com/

KUSA has had no breakups for me for a few days so I wrote Don Perez a note thanking him for fixing the problem. His reply was interesting as to what their plans are for channel 20. Here is what he has to say:


We closed on the purchase of KTVD (ch.20) yesterday. Our digital MW link to our transmitter was designed for an analog and digital feed. We had the unit modified to allow for two digital feeds (KUSA & KTVD). As a by product of this change there was a signal strength issue that needed to be addressed. We will be providing HD news on KTVD this fall at 9 PM. We are also making a number of changes in the plant because of KTVD. This will ultimately improve our HD and SD operations, but it’s like changing the “engine” in car while driving down the road.

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Bryan Burns was named Vice President of Strategic Business Planning and Development in April 2000. With ESPN since 1996, he had previously served as Vice President of Distribution Development. Burns currently serves as the head of the company’s high-definition services: ESPN HD and ESPN2 HD. Burns has been an integral part of creation of the two services from the business planning prior to the announcement of ESPN HD in 2002 to the flip of the switch of ESPN2 HD in January 2005. He is also charged with directing the growth of high definition telecasts within ABC Sports programming. In 2004, Burns was inducted into the Academy of Digital Television Pioneers (DTV Academy), a select group of individuals who have made a significant contribution to the development, success and promotion of digital television.

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Robert Seidel joined CBS Engineering as a Design Engineer in 1976. After serving as Associate Director of Systems Development and Director of Satellite Engineering, Bob was promoted to Vice President of Television Engineering in 1989. As Vice President of CBS Engineering and Advanced Technology, he is responsible for the HDTV/DTV transition for CBS Television and the UPN Television Network. Bob has been instrumental in making CBS the industry leader in High Definition Television program production. In 1993, Bob received an Emmy Award for his pioneering work in portable satellite uplink systems used for worldwide news gathering. Bob headed up the engineering team that made broadcasting history when WRAL-HD, CBS affiliate in Raleigh, NC, became the first television station to transmit HDTV on July 23, 1996. Bob is a Fellow of the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers and a member of the Institute of Electronics and Electrical Engineers.

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TV Brand Keynote—Market and Technology Outlook
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Sorry to be off topic, but I'm moving to Brighton.. anyone have any advice for convincing my HOA to allow my roaf-top antenna? They insist it's not allowed... Should i just give up and try to cram it in the attic?

FYI-

Looks like I won't have to fight this battle, with my antenna in the attic I get all denver OTA...

I was talking to DirectV tonight and they said locals get turned on June 28th

Any news on this? Are they turning up Denver tomorrow?

Roy, the schedule you cited is the schedule for each respective FSN station. Not the HD station.

The top of the page clearly states that it is the HD schedule. I have checked this page in the past and FSN-RM was not listed. I believe that the FSN HD schedule has been updated and the FAQ has not.

I believe that the FSN HD schedule has been updated and the FAQ has not.

That is my impression also.

Roy

KUSA has had no breakups for me for a few days so I wrote Don Perez a note thanking him for fixing the problem. His reply was interesting as to what their plans are for channel 20. Here is what he has to say:


We closed on the purchase of KTVD (ch.20) yesterday. Our digital MW link to our transmitter was designed for an analog and digital feed. We had the unit modified to allow for two digital feeds (KUSA & KTVD). As a by product of this change there was a signal strength issue that needed to be addressed. We will be providing HD news on KTVD this fall at 9 PM. We are also making a number of changes in the plant because of KTVD. This will ultimately improve our HD and SD operations, but it’s like changing the “engine” in car while driving down the road.

DMH,

My 'source' at KUSA confirmed this as well. Basically it sounds like a great deal of on-air trauma is to be expected on BOTH KUSA and KTVD over the next few weeks as they are most certainly going through a major overhaul as they merge KTVD with their KUSA operation on Speer. There is long term good news, as you will certainly start seeing HD programming (more than just live news, although that will certainly be HD as well) on KTVD-DT for the first time starting in September as it's looking more and more like KTVD will become the "MyNetworkTV" affiliate for the Denver market. Sure it's just Primetime Soap Operas...but it will all be in HD! (can I get a 'woo-hoo' here, Dr. Mal?)

Maybe this rumored FSN-RM HD conversion (if it actually happens) means OTA-HD Rockies games once a week as well late in the season...let's hope! :D

FYI-

Looks like I won't have to fight this battle, with my antenna in the attic I get all denver OTA...
Congratulations! Brighton's kind of a sweet spot for HD, I think. Because we're NE of downtown, we shouldn't have to move/repoint our antennae when the stations switch their towers on Lookout to full power HD.

Then again, a coathook should be able to pick up the HD stations once they're full power on Lookout.

Sure it's just Primetime Soap Operas...but it will all be in HD! (can I get a 'woo-hoo' here, Dr. Mal?)
Umm...woo hoo? More HD is good, but I haven't heard anything about MyNetworkTV that interests me at all.

Watasec - did I just complain about an additional free source of HD? Despite the lack of progress on Lookout the last 5 years, I've got plenty of HD content to keep me busy. When work isn't interfering, that is :)

Jefferson County is very much a "private property rights" kind of county. With all the unusual contradictions that entails.

-Wabisabi

Boy yah got that right. I went to an NRA meeting in Evergreen with some of my customers and they spent exactly 2 seconds talking about guns. The rest of the time they were bitching about the government and property rights.

The JeffCo Commissioners met Tuesday to ban fireworks sales. Guess they didn't have any time to address the Lookout zoing issue??? Does anyone know when they plan to put this on their "agenda"?

Congratulations! Brighton's kind of a sweet spot for HD, I think. Because we're NE of downtown, we shouldn't have to move/repoint our antennae when the stations switch their towers on Lookout to full power HD.

Then again, a coathook should be able to pick up the HD stations once they're full power on Lookout.

Thanks! I get the LA HD locals from Directv, I've been watching House on fox. Last night we watched it on the OTA feed, WOOOW what a difference. Very dramatic. I don't know what DirecTV is doing to their signal, but it is horrible...

It looks like the Denver HD locals are up on DirecTv this morning. They have added 4,7,9 and 31. (No subchannels). I will be interested in hearing how those of you who can get the locals OTA compare them. Right now the only thing in HD is GMA and it looks good to me.

Mike,

Just curious, how do these channels appear in the guide. I already had the SD locals listed and the OTA digital "-" channels (9-1). How are the new channels designated. I do get everything that is available in HD OTA, so I am anxious to see how the LiL stuff looks in comparison. From what I have read elsewhere, including what Adam1115 said here, I am not real hopeful.

Phil P.

Mike,

Just curious, how do these channels appear in the guide. I already had the SD locals listed and the OTA digital "-" channels (9-1). How are the new channels designated. I do get everything that is available in HD OTA, so I am anxious to see how the LiL stuff looks in comparison. From what I have read elsewhere, including what Adam1115 said here, I am not real hopeful.

Phil P.
I suspect they are on the web - when you access your account - I'm going to check now.



nope nothing

Reggie

If I am in the right place, the schedule om the D* web site lists the locals...when you tell it to, but there is no indication of whether they are the digital or analog versions... nor are there dual entries covering both.
It is not a huge deal, I will be home in a few hours and can simply look :)

Phil P.

I'd like to know how much of a diff. there is between Direct & Dish for locals.

Mike,

Just curious, how do these channels appear in the guide. I already had the SD locals listed and the OTA digital "-" channels (9-1). How are the new channels designated. I do get everything that is available in HD OTA, so I am anxious to see how the LiL stuff looks in comparison. From what I have read elsewhere, including what Adam1115 said here, I am not real hopeful.

Phil P.

Here's how it looks on my guide:

4 DN4 (SD from DirecTv)
4 KCNC (HD from DirecTv)
4-1 KCNCDT (OTA)

etc. with 7, 9 and 31

You need a 5LNB dish and MPEG 4 receiver - H20 only for now.

It looks like the Denver HD locals are up on DirecTv this morning. They have added 4,7,9 and 31. (No subchannels). I will be interested in hearing how those of you who can get the locals OTA compare them. Right now the only thing in HD is GMA and it looks good to me.

Cool! Been out of town on business since Monday so I won't get a chance to look until tonight. Hopefully I will have some time to compare, although audio, not video quality is my system's and personal strong suit.
:D

You're in Erie? If you want a shot at all, get it out of the attic and onto the roof.

The Terk might come in handy in the attic in about 971 days when the Lookout towers convert to digital.

Just thought you all might like to know that the 4228 did the trick. Attic install, no amp, and receive ALL Denver OTA channels except ABC (which comes in around 15-20%). And this is all the way up in Erie.

When I add an amp, it actually decreases the signal -- who knows what's going on there.

You need a 5LNB dish and MPEG 4 receiver - H20 only for now.
But they haven't forgotten us "legacy" customers - we'll lose our distant HD nets now (if they aren't already). It was nice being able to catch the later airing of CBS-LA shows if I had both tuners set to record on other networks :(

Just thought you all might like to know that the 4228 did the trick. Attic install, no amp, and receive ALL Denver OTA channels except ABC (which comes in around 15-20%). And this is all the way up in Erie.

When I add an amp, it actually decreases the signal -- who knows what's going on there.
That's odd - ABC is at the same place as all the other channels. I wouldn't expect it to be the odd man out any more.

Congrats on getting the other channels, though. Erie - who'd've thunk it?

That's odd - ABC is at the same place as all the other channels. I wouldn't expect it to be the odd man out any more.

Congrats on getting the other channels, though. Erie - who'd've thunk it?

The ABC thing is a bit strange -- but not a big worry since we get ABC HD out of L.A. through DirecTV (never understood why, but not questioning).

It looks like the Denver HD locals are up on DirecTv this morning. They have added 4,7,9 and 31. (No subchannels). I will be interested in hearing how those of you who can get the locals OTA compare them. Right now the only thing in HD is GMA and it looks good to me.
Anyone know if these coming from Spaceway 1 at 102.8W?

Anyone know if these coming from Spaceway 1 at 102.8W?Eh... Spaceway 102, 103 whatever it takes. ;)

Just thought you all might like to know that the 4228 did the trick. Attic install, no amp, and receive ALL Denver OTA channels except ABC (which comes in around 15-20%). And this is all the way up in Erie.

When I add an amp, it actually decreases the signal -- who knows what's going on there.I tried an amp once and had the same experience. From what I've read, amps often cause signal overloads - which may come from a different frequency than the one you are trying to improve. Their main purpose is to keep you from losing the signal on a long cable run from the antenna.

Before you give up on ABC, I would suggest playing around with locations and orientation in your attic. I have a 4228 in my attic that is picking up ABC, and probably am just as far away from downtown as you are.

That's odd - ABC is at the same place as all the other channels. I wouldn't expect it to be the odd man out any more.
At the low power levels, it's a crap shoot. Especially for those of us at a distance. We've all seen the picture of the antennas on the top of RP(well it's in this forum somewhere :rolleyes: ), and I'd guess that they're maybe, what, 60' apart(furthest East to furthest West)? That's about 0° 0' 44" in azimuth from me(at 53 miles). I certainly can't adjust an antenna for that minute amount :p).

And checking the reception:

KCNC 25% - No Lock.
KRMA 30% - Lock - Pixelated.
KMGH 30% - Lock - Pixelated.
KTVD 66% - Lock - Solid.
(Anything above about 33% for me is solid & viewable.)

My guess is that things like antenna beam tilt, and definitely radiation pattern are having a large effect in this low power environment. Months ago, KDVR adjusted their antenna, and now I receive it at about 66%. Prior to that, was maybe 0% - 10%, never viewable.

Also, the new digital testing law seems to be making a difference. This week I called KXRM(Fox C/S) and requested a waiver. No guff, they said that it would take about a week(we'll see if that happens :rolleyes: ). When I called them last August, it was a blunt We Don't Allow Waivers!.
....jc

Only had time for a quick side by side of the D* lil and the OTA locals last night. I managed to catch a bit of Leno's show. I was watching on my 65" Mitsubishi Diamond series display which admittedly is now over 6 years old and displays only 1080i and also is in need of a calibration. To be honest I couldn't see a seriously distinguishable difference between the two broadcasts. Channel 9 may be a bad test since the OTA signal also includes the subchannel. I don't know what quality of feed D* is getting but it does look good. I saw a bit of a show on ABC earlier, but the show was soft focused to begin with, so it was pretty hard to see much difference. I would think a world cup soccer game or other sporting event might be a better test. When I was looking, CBS and Fox weren't broadcasting in HD, so I couldn't check that side. I will likely still watch most events on the OTA signal since I really hate the 5 second delay on the D* feed, especially for a sporting event which is supposed to be 'live', but I don't have my downstairs Sony 38" (?) LCD hooked up to the outside antenna, so it will be nice to have that option on a hot summer day. Overall, I think the D* option should work for those out of site of the RB signals at least for a while.

Anyone else with an observation (especially someone with a newer and/or larger screen size and better resolution)?

So I quickly called *D this morning and sure enough they have finally broadcasted our local channels. Only problem is we record a majority of our shows and according to the *D customer service rep, they only offer a HD receiver that you lease for 99.00 which includes the upgraded dish. I'm one step closer now that locals are offered however I dont really want to give up my current tivo capabilities. I've been trying to keep a close watch on the development of this HD-DVR HR20 -which I originally was told to launch late this summer, so I'm holding out at the moment until this is available.

I guess I could always move my current receiver upstairs and record to a new tv - assuming they will be compatible with this new dish. I'm trying to hold on with *D service, but I may be switching providers if they dont offer this HD-DVR soon :confused:

Last night during prime time I flipped through the channels to see how they looked. 4 had CSI-NY, 7 had Lost, and 9 had Law and Order. I thought everything looked real good, but of course I don't have OTA to compare it to. Like John mentioned, it'll work for me until we catch up to the rest of the country.

(Now, about that new HD DVR...)

I too just did the briefest of comparisons. I have a 42" 1080P Westinghouse LCD display. I used the 9 news at 5 and 6, as I find the studio shots to be pretty good HD. At least it is very consistent. The comparison was complicated by the fact that my H20-600 takes several seconds...I mean several, to change from OTA to the LiL stuff. In any case, I thought that I saw a noticeable loss of fine detail in the LiL signal. Not a huge difference, and I had to be three feet from the display to see it, but it was there. Overall though, the LiL quality was not bad at all. It is certainly going to be very nice for those that can't get the OTA HD on the locals now. I will try and A-B some other content in the next few days and let you all know what I think.

Phil P.

I too just did the briefest of comparisons. I have a 42" 1080P Westinghouse LCD display. I used the 9 news at 5 and 6, as I find the studio shots to be pretty good HD. At least it is very consistent. The comparison was complicated by the fact that my H20-600 takes several seconds...I mean several, to change from OTA to the LiL stuff. In any case, I thought that I saw a noticeable loss of fine detail in the LiL signal. Not a huge difference, and I had to be three feet from the display to see it, but it was there. Overall though, the LiL quality was not bad at all. It is certainly going to be very nice for those that can't get the OTA HD on the locals now. I will try and A-B some other content in the next few days and let you all know what I think.

Phil P.
The local news is likely a great place to compare the two, since it is usually pretty clear, but since 9 OTA splits the signal with the weather channel it may not be a true test either. I thought the lil looked softer at first as well, but when I tried a blind test (switching without keeping track of which version of Leno I had on) to be perfeclty honest, I really couldn't say for sure which one I had. It was also late, my eyes were tired and I had spent three days on business travel, so it wasn't the best time for me to do this test. Try switching a few times without keeping track of which one you have on, and see if you can really tell any difference. If all of the national D* channels looked that good I wouldn't complain. It would be interesting to have someone measure the bit rates from the new lil's.

I guess I could always move my current receiver upstairs and record to a new tv - assuming they will be compatible with this new dish. I'm trying to hold on with *D service, but I may be switching providers if they dont offer this HD-DVR soon :confused:

Yes your Tivo DVR (HD and SD) will be compatable with the new dish so you can move it.

Reggie

The local news is likely a great place to compare the two, since it is usually pretty clear, but since 9 OTA splits the signal with the weather channel it may not be a true test either.

It's as true a test as you can find, since you can't get 9-1 without 9-2 (unless I'm mistaken). 9-1 has always looked soft to me. Whether or not it's due to the weather channel, I have no idea.

There is no DVR for DirecTV that records the HD satellite locals. It was due awhile ago, so who knows when it will be done. And it will most likely be in VERY short supply when it first comes out. The DirecTV HR10 (HDTiVo) can record OTA local signals though.

Dish has the VIP622 DVR that is MPEG4 (ie local) compatible.

The reports I have read on the satellite boards say that DTV is transmitting in HD-Lite (1280x768), even for the locals. I currently have DISH and the HD is supposedly in full resolution. However, from Ft Collins, I can't really do an OTA compare.

I am fairly happy with Dish Network, and they do have an HD DVR (622) available. I would really suggest anyone who is not locked into service at least consider.

I ordered my MPEG4, 622/Dish1000 and will have it next week. It'll be nice to have all the locals on the dish as well as OTA. I'll compare Dish to OTA when I it all up-an-runnin'.

I've had the Dish 1000 and locals since they were turned on, I believe back in April. I think their PQ is pretty good, but I think OTA is slightly better. I posted a while back that I did a comparison of the pin stripes on Leno's suit switching between OTA and E*. The OTA was sharper, but just slightly.

I just noticed that KDEN, DT RF 29, the Telemundo outlet that I'll never watch, must have gone full power today. It's registering 97% on my Dish receivers. I couldn't receive it before today.

HD Programming for the 4th of July

I learned today only one fireworks show will be broadcast in HD, and that is "A Capitol Fourth on PBS-HD".

The Macy's show on NBC and the Boston Pops on CBS will be in SD.

Boo!

I was kind of looking forward to the Boston Pops version of the 1812 Overture in 5.1 Dolby. Will have to settle for the PBS National Symphony Version. Howitzer cannons and fireworks in Dolby 5.1 through my subwoofer!

Cool!

[QUOTE=milehighmike]I've had the Dish 1000 and locals since they were turned on, I believe back in April. I think their PQ is pretty good, but I think OTA is slightly better. QUOTE]

I also had posted my comparison and agree. OTA is slightly better but overall the picture is very good. And from my viewing distance there is no difference. I typically still watch OTA but when I'm having reception problems it's nice to have the Dish option.

I ordered my MPEG4, 622/Dish1000 and will have it next week. It'll be nice to have all the locals on the dish as well as OTA. I'll compare Dish to OTA when I it all up-an-runnin'.

The deal breaker for me is only 1 OTA ATSC tuner... ugh...

I guess if your getting your locals MPEG4 via sat it's fine...

Why is that deal breaker for you? I don't think there are any other Dish OTA receivers that have two OTA ATSC tuners. With the LIL, I can now record two locals in HD at the same time.

Why is that deal breaker for you? I don't think there are any other Dish OTA receivers that have two OTA ATSC tuners. With the LIL, I can now record two locals in HD at the same time.

Because my HR10-250 has 2 OTA ATSC tuners and can record two OTA shows at the same time.

I really don't want to lose OTA quality for overcompressed satellite..

Also, one of the things that attracted me to the TiVo units is the inexpensive ability to upgrade the hard disk. The HR10 is upgradable to 1.5 terrabytes...

Just a reminder ...

The shuttle Discovery tries to launch again at 1:26PM MDT today 7/2/2006. The launch is covered in HD exclusively by HDNet. Coverage of the preparations start right now at 9AM MDT.

Letter from Golden Mayor in today's Post: (http://www.denverpost.com/letters/ci_3995812)


TV towers in Golden

Re: "Golden should drop its land-grab plan," June 18 editorial.

The Post's editorial is another example of a desperate attempt to sway public opinion. Readers should be disturbed to learn The Post failed to disclose its partner-affiliation with KUSA-Channel 9, a member of Lake Cedar Group, while rubber-stamping the media conglomerate's propaganda.

Chances are the only information you have received about the Lookout Mountain tower is from LCG members KCNC- Channel 4, KMGH-Channel 7, KUSA-Channel 9 and KTVD- Channel 20. You've probably seen their profusion of ads that use fear tactics, received calls from a company conducting misleading push-polls for them, or read biased editorial coverage.

What they haven't told you is that LCG wants a 730-foot HDTV tower and 20,000 square-foot building on undeveloped mountain backdrop that has been identified for open-space purposes for 100 years.

With more than 70 percent support from its citizens and thousands of others who oppose the LCG proposal, Golden sought to protect the threatened Lookout Mountain property. The city offered LCG $1.7 million from funds citizens authorized in 2000 for open-space purchases. LCG refused Golden's offer, leading to the city's eminent-domain proceedings.

Golden never threatened to tear down LCG's existing towers. And although LCG claims it will replace four towers with this supertower, those towers are on separate property and their current nonconforming status requires their removal. Nevertheless, LCG continues to pursue only the supertower, despite the fact that there are other sites for excellent HDTV signals, which other stations are already using successfully. Plus, most people with expensive HDTVs receive cable and satellite service.

The metro area will get over-the-air HDTV service. The question is whether this media conglomerate should be able to use its market monopoly to squelch public debate over health, economics and quality of life, and destroy open space in the process.

Charles J. Baroch, Mayor, Golden

I'm no expert, but everything we've heard says that the nonconforming status does NOT require their removal, correct? And I know Golden is populated by "forward thinkers", but 100 years ago I doubt that anyone was using the term "open space". What happened to Golden 60 years ago when the original towers were installed - was it populated by Republicans for a couple of years? What's so much better about the land the new tower would be on that it can't be traded for the land under the old towers? And, except for the footprint of the new tower and support building, the land will still be "open space". Maybe a total of 2 acres out of 65 will have something on it.

Anyone else having receptions problems up north? I've lost just about everything with the following exceptions:

Ch. 9 is at 56% with breakups
Ch. 53 is 72 % and fine

Everything else is 0. Even 31 and 2. I know its not my connections. BTW, my receiver is the Dish211. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

I'm no expert, but everything we've heard says that the nonconforming status does NOT require their removal, correct?
Correct. That's a myth perpetuated by sCARE/Golden.

Their status is legal nonconforming. sCARE/Golden consistently ignores the "legal" part of that phrase. They can stay as long as they're providing TV service.

There's just so much wrong with that letter it would tire me out to respond to each point. Besides, everyone reading this thread already knows the facts. It's apparent the mayor of Golden is oblivious to facts, though.

I cant speak for the north coverage, but all are broadcasting at about the normal levels I receive down here in Elizabeth

There's just so much wrong with that letter it would tire me out to respond to each point. Besides, everyone reading this thread already knows the facts.I'm not tired yet. If there's anything else I should add in my rebuttal, let me know.

Here goes. Any comments?

There are so many errors in Mayor Charles Baroch's letter that a proper rebuttal would take too much room, but I'll reply to some of them.
His statement that the towers' "nonconforming status requires their removal" is untrue. The towers are legal nonconforming uses, and as long as they are broadcasting TV (and over-the-air transmissions are a federal requirement) they will remain. The Lake Cedar Group, in its TV ads and on its web site (hdtvcolorado.com) has made the size of the new tower and the existence of the support building very clear.
The mayor would have you believe that this issue only affects "people with expensive HDTV's" most of whom "receive cable and satellite service". That is not true either. In February 2009, the current analog broadcasts must be shut down by federal law, to be replaced by digital transmissions. Roughly 20% of people in the Denver metro area receive TV via over the air broadcasts. I would bet that most of those people do not own "expensive HDTV's", and they won't need to after the analog shut down. But they will need full power digital broadcasts, which is what LCG is trying to provide.
The mayor's statement that "there are other sites for excellent HDTV signals" would carry more weight if he would name a single one. Of course if he did, it would not be near his city. The mayor's NIMBY friends recently succeeded in forcing KRMA off Mt. Morrison. Squaw Mtn. won't work because transmissions would be blocked by the foothills to most people west of Wadsworth (I guess all of Golden gets cable or satellite). Towers to the east would be hazards to aircraft, and would not provide service for people in the foothills.
Finally, the mayor implies that LCG will "destroy open space" by building the consolidated tower. But the land under the planned tower has been in private hands for over 100 years, and LCG would turn over the land under the existing towers (~9 acres more than the new tower parcel) to Jefferson County for use as open space. LCG has not "squelched public debate", as the mayor's own letter clearly illustrates. And LCG has shown a lot more responsibility and honesty when providing information than any of the opposition.

I'll have to cut some of this, since it's over the 200 word limit. But the mayor's letter was 297 words, so they should at least cut me some slack.

"....other sites that stations are using successfully"......????!!!

Does he mean those rooftop sites downtown?

Well, I guess the next round of spots should tell people how they will just have to wait until the fall of 2008, then do without ANY TV for 6 months while the stations re-build their existing towers and transmitter facilities for DTV. Can't do both at the same time. Can't rebuild everything on the night of 2-16-2009, either.

Wait'll granny finds out she has to buy Cable or satellite out of her Social Security check!

BTW, how do the local politicos get their TV in Denver and surrounding areas?

do without ANY TV for 6 months while the stations re-build their existing towers and transmitter facilities for DTV. Can't do both at the same time. Can't rebuild everything on the night of 2-16-2009, either.

Well, since they can't touch the towers, it's conceivable that they could do some build-out work in the buildings prior to 2/16/09 so that all they have to do is go in there at midnight and switch the source feeding the transmitters on the tower.

Squaw Mtn. won't work because transmissions would be blocked by the foothills to most people west of Wadsworth (I guess all of Golden gets cable or satellite).
It's a shame that couldn't be localized to mostly Golden. Then at the same time, have local broadcast stations deny retransmission consent via cable and satellite to Golden ZIP codes, thus forcing the residents of Golden to try and capture a sub-par signal via antenna.

Imagine the press release..."By making these changes to our site plan and retransmission policies, we can assure the city of Golden that the local broadcast industry has taken every measure possible to keep our signals from radiating your community. We have heard your citizens, and we have listened."

Let's face it...Politicians have come up with far more absurd scenarios to win elections or get measures passed...

Anyone else having receptions problems up north? I've lost just about everything with the following exceptions:

Ch. 9 is at 56% with breakups
Ch. 53 is 72 % and fine

Everything else is 0. Even 31 and 2. I know its not my connections. BTW, my receiver is the Dish211. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Everything is normal for me (17th and Hover). I am getting an 18-8 and an 18-9 that I have never seen before though. I hope its just a glitch and not KRMA messin' around with subs. I still can't stand that create is now on instead of the HD shows that had been on in the late afternoon.

gacon,

Excellent response to the Mayor. I know you need to edit down the number of words, but I think it would be helpful if you could somehow squeeze in the fact the KRMA will be low power forever thanks to zoning hassles and the that the City of Golden has no more of a claim on "open space" outside of their city boundaries than you, I, and everyone else does.

If I had the energy, I'd love to do a Squaw Mt. DTV reception test. I'd like to take a portable generator, DTV receiver, OTA antenna, small HDTV, and drive around West of Wadsworth, to Lakewood, Golden and over to Boulder and just show that you cannot receive KBDI's Squaw Mt. transmitter at all.

Oh, and all the while videotaping the entire thing to show the commissioners at the next hearings (If they ignore Judge Jackson and re-open the entire hearings from scratch).

We need to put this freakin' Squaw Mt. thing to rest.

Thanks mike. I cut back a lot and got it to 296 words. I took out the part about LCG not telling you that they want to build a tower (?!) and the KRMA statement, so feel free to write your own rebuttal. Gee, I wonder if I could make a claim of open space inside Golden city limits.

"undeveloped mountain backdrop that has been identified for open-space purposes for 100 years".

The Jeffco Open space program (one of the first in the country) didn't exist until 1972. The Mountain Backdrop proposals started in the early 90's after the Taj was built (I worked there then and was involved with the early proposals).

I guess truth or facts don't matter to politicians. :(

"undeveloped mountain backdrop that has been identified for open-space purposes for 100 years".

The Jeffco Open space program (one of the first in the country) didn't exist until 1972. The Mountain Backdrop proposals started in the early 90's after the Taj was built (I worked there then and was involved with the early proposals).

I guess truth or facts don't matter to politicians. :(

Perhaps he means a 100 year plan from that point... so 2072?

If I had the energy, I'd love to do a Squaw Mt. DTV reception test. (Even with Deb & AL present) I'd like to take a portable generator, DTV receiver, OTA antenna, small HDTV, and drive around West of Wadsworth, to Lakewood, Golden and over to Boulder and just show that you cannot receive KBDI's Squaw Mt. transmitter at all.

Oh, and all the while videotaping the entire thing to show the commissioners at the next hearings (If they ignore Judge Jackson and re-open the entire hearings from scratch).

We need to put this freakin' Squaw Mt. thing to rest.

Did any stations ever buy one of those nice Harris DTV Testing Vans that were for sale a few years back? That would put a nice "official" stamp on any testing the LCG would want to do. Baring that, there are some very acceptable ways to do DTV field strength testing to see what reception would be like....numbers and proceedures that might hold up in court or with the FCC.

Why did OTA PBS 6.1 become 18.1 for a day, then go back to 6.1, and how did my TV automatically know where to go?

Why did OTA PBS 6.1 become 18.1 for a day, then go back to 6.1, and how did my TV automatically know where to go?KRMA-DT is always UHF channel 18. Your receiver remaps it to 6.1 so it can "appear" to be the same channel number that you are used to from analog broadcasts. Sometimes the station is fiddling with the PSIP part of the transmission and the channel can show up on your receiver as the "native" frequency. Also, as in the case of my old 1st generation receiver, every time I do a channel scan there is usually one random DTV station that doesn't remap -- it's like the receiver missed that part of the PSIP for that channel.
Did any stations ever buy one of those nice Harris DTV Testing Vans that were for sale a few years back? That would put a nice "official" stamp on any testing the LCG would want to do. Baring that, there are some very acceptable ways to do DTV field strength testing to see what reception would be like....numbers and proceedures that might hold up in court or with the FCC.Irrefutable facts and measurements don't seem to matter -- these people can drag things through the courts seemingly forever. We are all just twiddling our thumbs for now, waiting to see how things unfold in Feb. 2009. I have a feeling the stations will just broadcast ATSC-only from the existing towers. (s)CARE et. Al will fight it in court under the same-service argument for years to come but it will be much harder to shut down the stations at that time. They can drag it on as long as they want then, while we are watching full-power OTA DTV.

(s)CARE et. Al will fight it in court under the same-service argument for years to come ....
So our good buddy Al Hislop has made it into a widely-used Latin phrase! :D

Got a nice mailer today from sCARE (Guess they don't recognize my name on their mailing list) They want everybody in the Lookout area to email the Commissioners to tell them to Deny the tower. And the weirdest part is they want everybody when they email the commissioners, to let them know they are REPUBLICIAN! I guess this is getting partisan.

Got a nice mailer today from sCARE (Guess they don't recognize my name on their mailing list) They want everybody in the Lookout area to email the Commissioners to tell them to Deny the tower. And the weirdest part is they want everybody when they email the commissioners, to let them know they are REPUBLICIAN! I guess this is getting partisan.I don't know about your state, but in MY state of Iowa it's the Republicans who seem to be most bent on passing an eminent-domain reform law that would likely prevent the shenanigans it appears Golden is contemplating.

I'm not a registered Republican and I don't want to inject politics into an AVS thread, but it seems that CARE has and it's kind of hard to avoid given all you're dealing with.

[rant on]
I think we all know how hard it'll be to get this analog-to-digital conversion over with, even in a good market where everyone's putting out good DT. ALL of our major stations in Cedar Rapids-Waterloo are digital and all but one (the soon-to-be CW/My affiliate) are at a power level most Eastern Iowans should be able to get. Yet the ATSC tuners are just beginning to get into most of the TVs and the converter boxes for existing analog sets are MIA. Will we get them in the stores as Analog Shutdown Day approaches? We don't know! And most of the bars I go to bought widescreen sets and don't even bother to feed them with the proper signals.

And if I'm reading your thread and the news correctly, won't the tower footprint problems END soon after 2-17-09? Won't there be FEWER towers there in a little over two and a half years?

Oh, and isn't the website c-a-r-e.org kind of a ripoff? Last I checked, there's already a care.org (no hyphens) that's used by a humanitarian organization.
[/rant off]

And if I'm reading your thread and the news correctly, won't the tower footprint problems END soon after 2-17-09? Won't there be FEWER towers there in a little over two and a half years?It depends on who you believe (and/or who's side you're on). sCARE says the existing, legally zoned for over 50 yrs, Analog towers must be taken down because they cannot be used for Digital television as that is not the 'Same-service', and as such, is not zoned for digital, only analog.

Of course, anybody with common sense believes that television is television, and is the 'same-service' (just as analog & digital cell phones are the 'same-service') thus, the towers are zoned correctly and will stay forever. This 'same-service' definition is the center of the controversy. Unforuntately, we will have to wait until Feb, 2009 to see what the court thinks when the lawsuits start after the stations change-out the transmitters inside the building and use the existing analog towers for digital.

If anybody want's to read sCARE's "Act-Now-Or-We-Will-All-Die" mailer, here it is.

sCARE Newsletter (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/sCARE.pdf)

There's been talk about Fox Sports Rocky Mountain going HD. If you turn to Channel 96 on DirecTv right now, the Rockies vs SF is in HD. On the little banner /scoreboard on top it even says FSN Rocky Mtn. One small problem though, there is no audio.

There's been talk about Fox Sports Rocky Mountain going HD. If you turn to Channel 96 on DirecTv right now, the Rockies vs SF is in HD.
I believe that will happen. However, it's for HD LIL subscribers, even though it may be on channel 96 for the Denver DMA(it's not there for me in Woodland Park).
....jc

I can't get ch 96........only 95 & 97, both blank! 96 isn't in my guide.

If anybody want's the read sCARE's "Act-Now-Or-We-Will-All-Die" mailer, here it is.

sCARE Newsletter (http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/sCARE.pdf)
If you are a Republican, have any special qualifications, experiences with electrical interference to your home or business equipment, decreased property values, health concerns, please say that.
sCARE is playing a dangerous(probably grasping) game.

If I was a Democrat or an Independent how should I interpret that statement? :confused: I won't be affected by their BS, or that they don't consider me to be at risk(the false risk that they state), or they simply don't recognize me as a human being?

Perhaps they meant to say:
If you are white, conservative, make more than $100k, your Rolex looses a second every now and then, you haven't realized that you property is way overvalued, your Viagra bottle is almost empty, please state that you are simply pandering to political preference?

I really think that LCG should broadcast this 'newsletter'. In my opinion it does more damage to their(sCARE's) cause.

I can see the new signs now:

Welcome to Golden!
Turn around NOW if you aren't a Republican. You Will Be Shot!

sCARE's tactics may work in Boulder County, but in Teller county(read Middle Class), they would be Dead Meat.
....jc

There's been talk about Fox Sports Rocky Mountain going HD. If you turn to Channel 96 on DirecTv right now, the Rockies vs SF is in HD. On the little banner /scoreboard on top it even says FSN Rocky Mtn. One small problem though, there is no audio.
Same thing here at my place. I wondered if the audio was the result of the storm as a thunderstorm came through here and it was raining so heavy that I lost all of the D* satellites for about 15 minutes. When the storm finally passed there was still no audio when the picture came back. My guide does not show the game on 96, so I am guessing they are still messing with the local feeds and are not quite ready for prime time yet. Although I am glad to see this action, I still am more concerned that we get Altitude HD rather than FSRM, although at the rate the Avs are going there may not be anything worth watching next year. Joe Sakic and the not ready for prime time players......The Avs had better hit the free agent market hard in the next few weeks or this team will be lucky to finish last in their division next year.

EDIT: 8:37 PM I noted on the programming forum discussing the HD RSN's that several of the other RSN's have no audio either, so I assume this means D* is still testing things.

Ernie, thanks for posting the (S)CARE letter. I must admit the comment about the Republicans sure baffles me. I can't think of why they would post that???? Does anyone know the party affiliations of the commissioners? If they are all Republican, it might explain the request, in that (S)CARE wants to use the party mechanisms to put pressure on them. Other than that, it doesn't make sense (IMO) why they would use that ploy.

I just saw an interesting story on Fox31News. There's a family in Douglas county whose fighting the city of Parker because their attempting a hostile Eminent Domain takeover of their land. What makes this story more interesting is the land is NOT in the city of Parker!! Hmmm, sound familiar? If anybody else hears how this plays out, please post it.

I didn't see the story but what makes this even more interesting IMHO is that Parker is a town, not a city. Because of that, I don't think it enjoys the benefits of "home rule".

Same thing here at my place. I wondered if the audio was the result of the storm as a thunderstorm came through here and it was raining so heavy that I lost all of the D* satellites for about 15 minutes. When the storm finally passed there was still no audio when the picture came back. My guide does not show the game on 96, so I am guessing they are still messing with the local feeds and are not quite ready for prime time yet. Although I am glad to see this action, I still am more concerned that we get Altitude HD rather than FSRM, although at the rate the Avs are going there may not be anything worth watching next year. Joe Sakic and the not ready for prime time players......The Avs had better hit the free agent market hard in the next few weeks or this team will be lucky to finish last in their division next year.

EDIT: 8:37 PM I noted on the programming forum discussing the HD RSN's that several of the other RSN's have no audio either, so I assume this means D* is still testing things.

Ernie, thanks for posting the (S)CARE letter. I must admit the comment about the Republicans sure baffles me. I can't think of why they would post that???? Does anyone know the party affiliations of the commissioners? If they are all Republican, it might explain the request, in that (S)CARE wants to use the party mechanisms to put pressure on them. Other than that, it doesn't make sense (IMO) why they would use that ploy.

All three sitting Jeffco Commissioners are Republicans. And the Democrat running in opposition, Kathy Hartman is also anti-tower.

I've known Kathy for a while. After my conversations with her on this and other issues, I'm going to write myself in for this race.

Plan Jeffco, which is largely Dem, is also anti-tower.

I think for the Golden area, the concensus is for no tower.

I didn't see the story but what makes this even more interesting IMHO is that Parker is a town, not a city. Because of that, I don't think it enjoys the benefits of "home rule".

Regardless of home rule or not, the Poundstone Amendment should trump everything.

I'm waiting for somebody to take that one into the courts and watch the municipalities get their pitards booted.

"If you are a Republican, have any special qualifications, experiences with electrical interference to your home or business equipment, decreased property values, health concerns, please say that."

OK, I am an independent, but I have "special qualifications" (Broadcast/Sat Engineer, Interference Investigator, etc), I have "experience with electrical interference...." (shopping mall neons make TV and radio reception impossible), my property values are going T-H-I-A-H, and my acid reflux is killing me. I don't live in Golden, though. Can I write a letter? :)

Hey! I guess the Denver Tower isn't the only thing that can cause those kinda problems.....

Ken,

I see that you post in this forum often and you are not a resident of Colorado. I am curious, since you are in the broadcast business, does our tower problem get much coverage in the broadcast world?

Are other stations engineers aware of our situation in Denver?

If so, what is the opinion of our situation (general consensus, I think I know your stance)?

Just curious...

Matt

Today's Denver Post has an article about LCG's efforts to educate electronics retailers about the tower situation. I applaud their efforts but I'm afraid that it's too little, too late. The article also gives the response from Golden mayor Bestor which is embarassingly uninformed and full of political hubris.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_4011841

I think that many engineers are aware of what is happening (and hoping it doesn't set a precedent that might affect their own markets), but I wonder how many others (outside of engineering) have any clue what is going on.

There is coverage of the issue in the national trade journals, as well as several web-based broadcast engineering news sites.

Most engineers that I know feel that the tower opponents are mis-informed, and probably have an adgenda.....maybe something to do with property values.

I wonder why the national mainstream media does not get involved, though. With all of the newsmagazine shows, like "Dateline", "60 Minutes", etc, you would think they could spare 30 minutes to discuss the future of our own industry....especially if they could tie-in to some "hot-button" issues like property rights, cancer, media expansion, etc.

Maybe the media thinks it's too complicated for most people to understand, or not emotional enough for viewers to stay tuned in.

Around here, we love having a common site for most all TV and FM. Sure makes things simpler for those at the receiving end. Too bad that wasn't one of the requirements for every market, right from the start.

Anyone got a copy of the brochure to scan and post?

Check out their website at:

http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/

Today's Denver Post has an article about LCG's efforts to educate electronics retailers about the tower situation. I applaud their efforts but I'm afraid that it's too little, too late. The article also gives the response from Golden mayor Bestor which is embarassingly uninformed and full of political hubris.

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_4011841

It must have been at least four years since I passed contact information to the LCG about Listen Up owners/managers and others so that they could do something like this. If they had done something then it might have made a difference. They never contacted LU, and the LU folks never followed up, even though they agreed it would make sense to pass out flyers with information on the situation at all of their stores. Why is it that I find myself in full agreement with you, "too little, too late". I can't figure out if the LCG folks were just overconfident, or just plain arrogant? Probably both, but mostly the latter IMO.

Ken,

Thanks for the reply. I do wish that we had a similar setup to what is available in Utah. When I would conduct product training in Utah, I never had any issues getting all of the ATSC signals. Salt Lake and St. Louis are the two markets were I can say that a coat hanger will get you a decent signal.

Concerning LCG and retail participation.

WOW!! If they got Ultimate to participate in this that is a big change in direction for them. Ultimate was very concerned about alienating wealthy consumers in the Golden/Gennessee market. I hope it is true, but I also admit it is too little, too late.

-Matt

I was surprised that any CE stores would really participate. Don't they all sell DirecTV, DISH Network, or Cable subscriptions and equipment? Eliminating free TV might be good for them.

BTW, don't those Golden city officials realize that, without an over the air signal, the stations don't have any reason to be on Cable or Satellite, anyway? So, if they can't be on the air, they won't be around to broadcast any news, weather, sports, or emergency info to the public, no matter how you get them. Maybe LCG should point out that, without the ABC, CBS, NBC and UPN affiliates, there aren't lots of quality options for broadcast news.

Plus, if they stay on their former channels (mostly VHF) after converting to DTV, people will need large VHF and UHF combo antennas (and rotors) to get all their local stations. Maybe LCG could show off the "Rich House/Poor House" comparison: nice Lookout Mountain mansion with no antenna (not even a tower in the background) vs. everybody else with their rooftop "NASA Tracking Station" look. Or, show poor old "granny" with her big yagi stuck out the window of her apartment....as she falls to the alley below, while adjusting the antenna to get her soaps. This whole thing may be about to get (more) ugly!

Well, I actually got even more steamed about this after reading the Denver Post article (http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_4011841) mentioned before on this page.

As I've told most of my friends and acquaintances, I deliberately chose not to get cable when I moved here a few years back. I feared that I would never leave the house if I did, plus I feel there are better ways to spend the $50 a month. Now that I get digital, most everything comes in perfect nearly all the time. (I say "most everything" because my WB/CW station isn't full-power yet.)

Meanwhile, there are more options than ever for families wanting to go digital AND cut the cable -- HDTVs are getting cheaper, plus there are SD digital sets available for less than what my HD tuner alone cost me a couple of years back. More -- and cheaper -- options will be available as 2-17-09 approaches.

With the rising cost of everything these days, I would not be surprised if more families, given ALL the information they need to make an informed decision, dropped cable and got themselves a digital off-air setup of some type.

It's too bad that a few people have taken it upon themselves to take that choice away from an entire market, and after what the Golden city manager said in that article, I can't wait to see the letters. (BTW, is he elected? Because where I come from, city managers aren't elected.)

Maybe I'll start relaxing at the library and reading the Post during my free time.
BTW, don't those Golden city officials realize that, without an over the air signal, the stations don't have any reason to be on Cable or Satellite, anyway? So, if they can't be on the air, they won't be around to broadcast any news, weather, sports, or emergency info to the public, no matter how you get them. Maybe LCG should point out that, without the ABC, CBS, NBC and UPN affiliates, there aren't lots of quality options for broadcast news.Some other poster recently suggested that the stations embargo their signals to Golden cable and sat subscribers. They could be shooting themselves in the foot if they tried that, but it might be worth it if it proved the point.

Gakon,
To prove my case to the FCC, KXRM & D* could you please run me a profile? Please post it here as an attachment, as it might turn out to be fairly cool.

From...: 38° 57' 49"N
.......:105° 05' 33"W
To:....: 38° 44' 43"N
.......:104° 51' 40"W

It s/b approximately 19.56 miles. :p

Thanks Much!
....jc

"People don't care the least about over-the-air broadcasts," said Golden City Manager Michael Bestor. "It's nice that the Lake Cedar Group has such an unlimited budget. They need to use some of that money ... to go at other options and quit wasting effort stirring other people up."

Anyone have some contact information on this idiot? I cared enough about OTA to spend $300+ on two antennas. I have D* but want OTA for these obvious reasons:

1) I don't want to have to pay extra for HD Locals monthly
2) The HD Locals are lower bandwidth than OTA
3) I may have to buy extra/different equipment for HD Locals through whatever provider
4) HTPC - it's not just for computer geeks anymore

GFY Michael Bestor, GFY.

TPW to KXRM profile attached. It's 19.52 miles straight line (no terrain). The high point is Cameron Cone, and the KXRM point does not account for the height of the tower. Let me know if this isn't what you expected.

Let me know if this isn't what you expected.
Thanks Gakon! I didn't really know what to expect, except that pointing an antenna in this direction always yields zilch(and this location is source of all C/S broadcasts).

KXRM had the balls to tell me that I'm in their broadcast area! :rolleyes:

Thanks again!
....jc

1) I don't want to have to pay extra for HD Locals monthly
2) The HD Locals are lower bandwidth than OTA
3) I may have to buy extra/different equipment for HD Locals through whatever provider
4) HTPC - it's not just for computer geeks anymore


5. Cable and satellite providers are only required to carry the OTA station's main channel. They're not required by the FCC to carry any subchannels so without OTA you have no guarantee of getting the subchannels.

6. OTA will work in my pickup. Try going mobile in an emergency with D* or Comcast!

7. With satellite (and sometimes cable), you have to pay an extra $5/month for every TV in the house. With OTA, every additional TV, just like the first TV, is free!

I'd rephrase #2 as lower resolution and thus lower quality.

I can't believe the mayor of Golden is trying to characterize the issue as only rich people who can thus afford cable and satellite have HDTVs. What a jerk.

Maybe the rich people with HDTVs are rich because they saved their money instead of spending it monthly on lots of extra cable and satellite services.

Of course, if the mayor is resorting to using class/wealth envy to defend his position and claiming LCG is "stirring other people up," maybe he's starting to feel the heat.

-Glen

I can't believe the mayor of Golden is trying to characterize the issue as only rich people who can thus afford cable and satellite have HDTVs. What a jerk.
-Glen
Mr. Bestor (aka Captain Idiot) is not the mayor of Golden; he is the city manager. Not that this changes a lot.

One thing I have observed is that no matter which side of this debate the speaker is on, they always refer to the signal OTA HDTV, as though somehow OTA regular TV is somehow separate. In reality, it is OTA DTV that is needed at full power, and in 2009 the OTA DTV will be all that is left. And everyone who picks up anything OTA will need it, not just affluent HDTV owners.

Many years ago I lived in LA, and there was a neighborhood at the west end of LAX (I forget what it was called). The neighbors regularly complained about the noise from the jets and what not, to the point that the city condemned via (eminent domain proceedings) all of the houses in that neighborhood, for "airport expansion". The airport was never actually expanded in the construction sense. The people had to move out, the houses were demolished, and the roads fenced off. The last time I was in LA the decaying remnants of the roads were still there. Maybe we need to get Jeffco to "condemn" all of the houses on Lookout mountain, to "preserve the mountain backdrop" for the residents of the city of Golden. It'll never happen...

I am having my "upgrade" this Saturday (new 5 LNB dish, and E20 receiver). I do get all of the locals though, except UPN, which is strange. Anyways, wondering if there are any plans on adding WB, UPN to D* LIL?

I know this is the OTA forum, but the only thing I really want to do now with
those clueless knotheads in Golden, and the Carneymeister is scream, so I will not talk about that.

Mr. Bestor (aka Captain Idiot) is not the mayor of Golden; he is the city manager. Not that this changes a lot.

One thing I have observed is that no matter which side of this debate the speaker is on, they always refer to the signal OTA HDTV, as though somehow OTA regular TV is somehow separate. In reality, it is OTA DTV that is needed at full power, and in 2009 the OTA DTV will be all that is left. And everyone who picks up anything OTA will need it, not just affluent HDTV owners.

Many years ago I lived in LA, and there was a neighborhood at the west end of LAX (I forget what it was called). The neighbors regularly complained about the noise from the jets and what not, to the point that the city condemned via (eminent domain proceedings) all of the houses in that neighborhood, for "airport expansion". The airport was never actually expanded in the construction sense. The people had to move out, the houses were demolished, and the roads fenced off. The last time I was in LA the decaying remnants of the roads were still there. Maybe we need to get Jeffco to "condemn" all of the houses on Lookout mountain, to "preserve the mountain backdrop" for the residents of the city of Golden. It'll never happen...
Excellent Suggestion

Reggie

I am having my "upgrade" this Saturday (new 5 LNB dish, and E20 receiver). I do get all of the locals though, except UPN, which is strange. Anyways, wondering if there are any plans on adding WB, UPN to D* LIL?

I know this is the OTA forum, but the only thing I really want to do now with
those clueless knotheads in Golden, and the Carneymeister is scream, so I will not talk about that.
Let us know how the new setup goes with D*. I will get it when the DVR is released.

Reggie

I do get all of the locals though, except UPN, which is strange.UPN isn't broadcasting anything that I can see. I have a signal strength on ch 19, but no signal -- no audio or video.
Let us know how the new setup goes with D*. I will get it when the DVR is released. I'm going to wait for the DVR too. I also need to figure out what I am going to do since you can't diplex the antenna feed anymore and I only have one coax to each room. I'll probably just A/B switch it in the basement and use OTA only as a backup.

UPN isn't broadcasting anything that I can see. I have a signal strength on ch 19, but no signal -- no audio or video.



19 comes in just fine over here in Lakewood. Video & audio. I wish they'd do something about that slight verticle video fluttering though. Also some shows are kinda dark looking. Like Becker! The fluttering & darkness are on both, OTA & Comcast.

Today's Denver Post has an article about LCG's efforts to educate electronics retailers about the tower situation. I applaud their efforts but I'm afraid that it's too little, too late...
Something else that perhaps should be pointed out about OTA DTV is that the signal won't be plagued with fade-out, ghosting, snow, etc., like current analog TV. If consumers realize that they can receive a clear picture without subscribing to cable, even in the fringe coverage areas, they will be more inclined to embrace the technology. I think a lot of consumers have satellite or cable now only because their reception sucks without it.

UPN isn't broadcasting anything that I can see. I have a signal strength on ch 19, but no signal -- no audio or video.
UPN, for some reason, has been mapping to 19-3, and it's the best signal that I receive from RP.

I just tried it, and no problems, full video & audio(some 'judge' show :o ).
....jc

I am having my "upgrade" this Saturday (new 5 LNB dish, and E20 receiver). I do get all of the locals though, except UPN, which is strange. Anyways, wondering if there are any plans on adding WB, UPN to D* LIL?

I know this is the OTA forum, but the only thing I really want to do now with
those clueless knotheads in Golden, and the Carneymeister is scream, so I will not talk about that.
There is/was a thread on D* adding WB stations to the lil lineup soon, but I think as is usual with D* they don't usually announce things until the day after they are available.
D* Adding the WB in HDTV(?) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=695178)

The new setup will also now get you FSRM HD for games although so far there is no audio available as they are apparently in a test mode for the moment.
I suspect they will turn on the audio in the next few days.

As for OTA reception with the new receivers, I found little or no change from OTA reception from my previous receiver as I suspect they are likely the same generation of OTA receiver.

Something else that perhaps should be pointed out about OTA DTV is that the signal won't be plagued with fade-out, ghosting, snow, etc., like current analog TV.
Nope. We get pixelazation instead.
If consumers realize that they can receive a clear picture without subscribing to cable, even in the fringe coverage areas, they will be more inclined to embrace the technology.
This statement might be true in 2009(when everyone is full power), but where I live, this is currently a false statement.
....jc

Something else that perhaps should be pointed out about OTA DTV is that the signal won't be plagued with fade-out, ghosting, snow, etc., like current analog TV. If consumers realize that they can receive a clear picture without subscribing to cable, even in the fringe coverage areas, they will be more inclined to embrace the technology. I think a lot of consumers have satellite or cable now only because their reception sucks without it.

That's a really great point. I only subscribe to cable/satellite up here in Fort Collins because the OTA analog reception SUCKS (as it does in downtown Denver too). With full-power DTV, I will be able to get a usuable signal resulting in a very high quality picture from an antenna that costs less than a single month's bill. Then I can dump the cable/satellite provider.

With full-power DTV, I will be able to get a usuable signal resulting in a very high quality picture from an antenna that costs less than a single month's bill. Then I can dump the cable/satellite provider.
As a football fan, I'll never have that satisfaction! :( If I want to watch all of the possible games in which a team that I like is playing, I need:
ESPN
ESPN2
FSN
NFL
TBS
and who knows what else? :confused: One way or another, I'm stuck with the $$$ sucking b*stards forever! :mad:
....jc

As a football fan, I'll never have that satisfaction! :( If I want to watch all of the possible games in which a team that I like is playing, I need:
ESPN
ESPN2
FSN
NFL
TBS
and who knows what else? :confused: One way or another, I'm stuck with the $$$ sucking b*stards forever! :mad:
....jc
I like McCain's proposal to require the cable and satellite companies to offer EVERY channel a la carte. If I could get my locals OTA and Comedy Central by itself off a bird or wire, I'd be really happy.

Neither one will ever happen, but I can dream.

Well I used to have a bud where I would catch the backhauls for free....maybe that is the way to get the games you want :)

As a football fan, I'll never have that satisfaction! :( If I want to watch all of the possible games in which a team that I like is playing, I need:
ESPN
ESPN2
FSN
NFL
TBS
and who knows what else? :confused: One way or another, I'm stuck with the $$$ sucking b*stards forever! :mad:
....jc

Mr. Bestor (aka Captain Idiot) is not the mayor of Golden; he is the city manager. Not that this changes a lot.
Got it!

One thing I have observed is that no matter which side of this debate the speaker is on, they always refer to the signal OTA HDTV, as though somehow OTA regular TV is somehow separate. In reality, it is OTA DTV that is needed at full power, and in 2009 the OTA DTV will be all that is left. And everyone who picks up anything OTA will need it, not just affluent HDTV owners.
Definitely not just "affluent" HDTV owners--a quick look at the circuity city web site shows that any TV larger than 27" has a digital tuner built in now including quite a few inexpensive tube TVs such as a 27" for $220.

Maybe we need to get Jeffco to "condemn" all of the houses on Lookout mountain, to "preserve the mountain backdrop" for the residents of the city of Golden. It'll never happen...
<sarcasm>We all know humans aren't part of the natural landscape anyway so why not condemn and fence off the whole mountain. All of use humans can then stare in awe at the natural landscape as we drive by it on the freeway.</sarcasm>

Well I used to have a bud where I would catch the backhauls for free....maybe that is the way to get the games you want :)

BUD is still a great way to fly for college football and basketball, but for the NFLST it is no longer a solution since that is now exclusive to D*. If you also like NHL hockey (which may not be available in Denver next year if the Avs lose another player or two), the BUD only works occassionally for backhauls. Full time 'every game' coverage is only with NHL Center Ice and it also requires a tether to one of the major blood suckers.....

As Originally Posted by TotallyPreWired
"As a football fan, I'll never have that satisfaction! If I want to watch all of the possible games in which a team that I like is playing, I need:.........I'm stuck with the $$$ sucking b*stards forever!"

I feel and share your pain. There are times when I really hate the fact I am addicted to football and hockey (usually during the off-season). I too am 'stuck' with the *&(*&^%$$^.

The new setup will also now get you FSRM HD for games although so far there is no audio available as they are apparently in a test mode for the moment.
I suspect they will turn on the audio in the next few days.

Been reading all this for a while but finally found a reason to register and respond. I was checking out the HD silent broadcast of the SF-Col game on directv channel 96 last night when I decided to take a look around to see if they were sneaking anything else in. They were also running the game in HD on 95... with sound.

While I'm at it, I'm with you on the whole Lookout Mountain situation, but I'm one of those few thousand hill dwellers who would benefit if they put it on Squaw Peak, within rabbit ear distance of my back door. As it stands, I think I could pick up a digital signal from Lookout but I'm not sure. Hence, I had to wait patiently for June 28, when directv tossed me a few scraps of HD local programming.

Been reading all this for a while but finally found a reason to register and respond. I was checking out the HD silent broadcast of the SF-Col game on directv channel 96 last night when I decided to take a look around to see if they were sneaking anything else in. They were also running the game in HD on 95... with sound.

While I'm at it, I'm with you on the whole Lookout Mountain situation, but I'm one of those few thousand hill dwellers who would benefit if they put it on Squaw Peak, within rabbit ear distance of my back door. As it stands, I think I could pick up a digital signal from Lookout but I'm not sure. Hence, I had to wait patiently for June 28, when directv tossed me a few scraps of HD local programming.

The game on 95 was a part of the MLB package. There is a game there nearly every night, but they are blacked out unless you get the MLB package (which I don't). Those have been on for some time, the games on 96 are new.

As for Squaw, if you are talking about me, I can't even get channel 12 (analog or digital) from where I live in northeast Boulder. If the stations ended up on Squaw I would likely lose everything, although I might have an outside shot if I tried a highly directive antenna pointed directly that way as I understand a member here about 8 blocks away from me is able to get channel 12 DTV. As it stands I have a near clear shot at Lookout (and downtown as well) and get all of the local DTV channels except 12. I can only dream of affording a home in the foothills west of Boulder.

This statement might be true in 2009 (when everyone is full power), but where I live, this is currently a false statement.

Sadly, it's a false statement for me, too. :(

My prediction after talking to the "powers that be" is they feel they have already won.

The solution will be RP with translators everywhere.

If LCG doesn't push this as a Poundstone Amendment issue, this is dead. That is the only way they can stop Golden's encroachment into Jeffco land, forcing a vote of "all" who are affected (that's the whole front range).

But will they do so?

No.

It's over, folks.

Start pushing for translators.

My prediction after talking to the "powers that be"Bob, which "Powers that be" are you referring to?If LCG doesn't push this as a Poundstone Amendment issue, this is dead. That is the only way they can stop Golden's encroachment into Jeffco land, forcing a vote of "all" who are affected (that's the whole front range).And also, if you didn't hear, the Jeffco commissioners (Yes, the current anti-tower commissioners) have told Golden to stop their Hostile Eminent Domain take-over attempt.

I just noticed that KDEN, DT RF 29, the Telemundo outlet that I'll never watch, must have gone full power today. It's registering 97% on my Dish receivers. I couldn't receive it before today.


Delayed response, but I've been out of town. This must be the new Spanish language station that recently showed up mapped to 10.1 (??) on my Samsung 360 DirecTV receiver. The guide data is for a CBS station in Wyoming. Strange.

Coming in loud (at least out of the right speaker) and clear from my Silver Sensor pointed at Lookout.

From the FCC Database Query (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KDEN) , it looks like they're broadcasting at 540kw from up near Frederick/Dacono.

Ron,

I receive a very strong signal for KTVD on all of my receivers. My TV with a built-in ATSC tuner and my E* 811 receive picture and audio, mapping to 19-1. But my E* 211 and my two Accurian's that I have connected to analog TV's show a strong signal but do not decode it properly so I get no lock. When I manually tune my E*211 to RF 19, as soon as the signal strength meter registers, in red, usually at about 82%, the remapping channel number changes from zero to a blank. I would guess that's a PSIP problem. After KUSA closed on the purchase of KTVD, I emailed Don Perez and asked him to look into this. I also asked him to have KTVD comply with remapping requirements, as the station should remap to channel 20-1. I never received a reply. I may email him again since it appears others are having problems with KTVD and/or it remaps inconsistently (19-1, 19-3)


bikenski,

If you're in Westminster and you're pointing a Silver Sensor towards Lookout, you must be receiving the KDEN from the back side of the antenna. This seems to be a good indicator of what reception would be like if there were full, high power stations in Denver besides this one. The station remaps to 25.1 on all of my receivers. I think the folks who run the station need to monitor their transmission. I watched it for a few minutes last night out of curiosity. Even with a mid-90's % signal, the picture often pixelated and the entire picture had an awful red hue. Even if I understood Spanish, I wouldn't watch the "quality" they are putting on the air right now.

Finally, I'm receiving KFCT out of Ft. Collins again. Maybe it's the weather. Anyway, I noticed that I do not get any program or guide info for this channel. I find it hard to believe that I don't receive this info on any of my receivers. Does anyone who receives this channel get program/guide info? I suspect KDVR doesn't pass that info on in the PSIP it generates for KFCT, just like it incorrectly passed on remapping info in KFCT's PSIP data to incorrectly remap to channel 31 for a long period of time rather than channel 22. (I watch KFCT because I don't have to turn my antenna away from Republic towards Lookout to catch Fox.)

After KUSA closed on the purchase of KTVD, I emailed Don Perez and asked him to look into this. I also asked him to have KTVD comply with remapping requirements, as the station should remap to channel 20-1. I never received a reply. I may email him again since it appears others are having problems with KTVD and/or it remaps inconsistently (19-1, 19-3)


Can you also ask him to fix their own guide data for 9-1? They are still broadcasting epg data from 6/16/2006. It looks like something broke at that time, because guide data stopped updating on that date. Also I had to turn off my program for receiving guide data for KTVD quite a while ago because the broken PSIP info would hang my program.

B.J.
Longmont

Bob, which "Powers that be" are you referring to?And also, if you didn't hear, the Jeffco commissioners (Yes, the current anti-tower commissioners) have told Golden to stop their Hostile Eminent Domain take-over attempt.

Ernie, I am deeply politically connected. There is no way I can reveal sources. Consider me a reporter with unnamed sources on this one.

While the latter may be true, that doesn't mean the commissioners will not stop the tower all on their own.

It looks from my perch that they are willing to go to the matresses on this. And so is the Dem opponent in this year's commissioner's race.

All future editorials on this should contain two words: Poundstone Amendment. They know what it means, and they don't like hearing it.

All future editorials should also speak to the importance of OTA in the event of a security emergency. They don't like hearing that, either, because they know it pushes a button in the voters that they don't want pushed: personal safety. Call it the 9/11 button. Only they like to push it. And when somebody else does, it makes them nervous. Start pushing it, guys. It works.

Can you also ask him to fix their own guide data for 9-1? They are still broadcasting epg data from 6/16/2006. It looks like something broke at that time, because guide data stopped updating on that date. Also I had to turn off my program for receiving guide data for KTVD quite a while ago because the broken PSIP info would hang my program.

B.J.
Longmont

And it would be nice to have Dolby 5.1 from 9-1. Please ask him when he'll have the new equipment ordered and installed for it, if ever.

The game on 95 was a part of the MLB package. There is a game there nearly every night, but they are blacked out unless you get the MLB package (which I don't). Those have been on for some time, the games on 96 are new.

As for Squaw, if you are talking about me, I can't even get channel 12 (analog or digital) from where I live in northeast Boulder. If the stations ended up on Squaw I would likely lose everything, although I might have an outside shot if I tried a highly directive antenna pointed directly that way as I understand a member here about 8 blocks away from me is able to get channel 12 DTV. As it stands I have a near clear shot at Lookout (and downtown as well) and get all of the local DTV channels except 12. I can only dream of affording a home in the foothills west of Boulder.
I don't have the MLB package either, so I don't know why I could get the picture on 95. But I did. I'll check it out again tonight to see if I get anything is on 95.

I was just making a general comment on the situation. There's a VHF antenna on my roof which I connected temporarily when I bought my HDTV in February. 12 came in strong, and the VHF stations on Lookout come in decently, but I have no shot at downtown because, in the ultimate irony, I'm blocked by Lookout Mountain. I don't feel a need to run a 2nd coax line into my basement for channel 12 (digital but not HD) and the Documentary Channel (12.2), so my antenna is currently a rooftop ornament.

Ron,

I receive a very strong signal for KTVD on all of my receivers. My TV with a built-in ATSC tuner and my E* 811 receive picture and audio, mapping to 19-1. But my E* 211 and my two Accurian's that I have connected to analog TV's show a strong signal but do not decode it properly so I get no lock. When I manually tune my E*211 to RF 19, as soon as the signal strength meter registers, in red, usually at about 82%, the remapping channel number changes from zero to a blank. I would guess that's a PSIP problem. After KUSA closed on the purchase of KTVD, I emailed Don Perez and asked him to look into this. I also asked him to have KTVD comply with remapping requirements, as the station should remap to channel 20-1. I never received a reply. I may email him again since it appears others are having problems with KTVD and/or it remaps inconsistently (19-1, 19-3)


bikenski,

If you're in Westminster and you're pointing a Silver Sensor towards Lookout, you must be receiving the KDEN from the back side of the antenna. This seems to be a good indicator of what reception would be like if there were full, high power stations in Denver besides this one. The station remaps to 25.1 on all of my receivers. I think the folks who run the station need to monitor their transmission. I watched it for a few minutes last night out of curiosity. Even with a mid-90's % signal, the picture often pixelated and the entire picture had an awful red hue. Even if I understood Spanish, I wouldn't watch the "quality" they are putting on the air right now.

Finally, I'm receiving KFCT out of Ft. Collins again. Maybe it's the weather. Anyway, I noticed that I do not get any program or guide info for this channel. I find it hard to believe that I don't receive this info on any of my receivers. Does anyone who receives this channel get program/guide info? I suspect KDVR doesn't pass that info on in the PSIP it generates for KFCT, just like it incorrectly passed on remapping info in KFCT's PSIP data to incorrectly remap to channel 31 for a long period of time rather than channel 22. (I watch KFCT because I don't have to turn my antenna away from Republic towards Lookout to catch Fox.)

Mike - regarding KFCT: It was off the air for weeks and weeks, but is indeed back on the air, and I am getting the program guide info. An engineer told me there was a xmitter problem, and it took longer to fix than expected. Also, the xmitter is actually in Pierce, 15 miles east of Ft. Collins. I get a real strong signal.

Scott Pro, Thanks for the reply regarding KFCT. I guess I'll have to look at my setup and see if some setting is incorrect, etc.

To others regarding KTVD, I'll email Don Perez again over the weekend, add the additional info from this forum, and see if it'll be enough to get him to reply.

All future editorials on this should contain two words: Poundstone Amendment. They know what it means, and they don't like hearing it.

Is Golden attempting to annex the affected land as in expanding the boundaries of the City of Golden, or are they just trying to use eminent domain to to acquire open space land outside of their boundaries (and jurisdiction)? If it is the latter, I don't see that the Poundstone Amendment directly applies. On the other hand there are other laws regarding the taking of land outside of jurisdiction.

I'm not saying not to bring up Poundstone, so much as trying to understand what is really happening.

Just an off topic reminder...

Cedia early bird registration expires July 19; price goes up $30 after that.

Don

Another Pro-tower editorial/opinion in the Denver Post today. It's very legally technical for those into that. But, the end is strong as he points out all that Golden has to lose by their stupid attempt.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_4025519

Great article! But I don't come to the same conclusion in the last line: But if the court upholds Jeffco's power to veto Golden's extraterritorial condemnation, this long battle could be entering its endgame. Golden's eminent domain battle will fail, but that doesn't mean the war is over.

Ron, I agree 100%. I emailed Bob Ewegen about the article and gave him all the reasons why the the game is not over by a long shot. Since he seems to be very versed in the legal aspects, I asked him about the 'Same-Service' issue.

Another Pro-tower editorial/opinion in the Denver Post today. It's very legally technical for those into that. But, the end is strong as he points out all that Golden has to lose by their stupid attempt.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_4025519

Here is the background paper from the Independence Institute that he mentioned in his article: http://www.i2i.org/articles/IB-2006-E.pdf

Is Golden attempting to annex the affected land as in expanding the boundaries of the City of Golden, or are they just trying to use eminent domain to to acquire open space land outside of their boundaries (and jurisdiction)? If it is the latter, I don't see that the Poundstone Amendment directly applies. On the other hand there are other laws regarding the taking of land outside of jurisdiction.

I'm not saying not to bring up Poundstone, so much as trying to understand what is really happening.

And every so often, the use of eminent domain to acquire open space and the annexation of land to expand the City are one in the same. But the object of the game for Golden, as they've stated, is not to create more Open Space.

We have to follow their arguments on this.

First, let's look at the City's argument. The takings is purportedly to ensure the safety (electromagnetic waves) and aesthetic quality of life (antennas on the hill are an eyesore) of citizens of Golden and Green Mountain. For them, Open Space is a means to an end-- by making the land open space, they achieve safety and aesthetics.

This is hardly an argument for Open Space, regardless of what Plan Jeffco says.

Second, this is not Golden's land. I haven't heard or read that this is being disputed anywhere or by anybody. If I'm wrong, then I'd appreciate a correction with a source.

Following the logic, before the land can be condemned and turned into Open Space, it must be made the city's land. This will require the annexation of county land that is already occupied for commercial purposes.

As I understand it, under Poundstone there can be no annexation, even of vacant land (the land that DIA now sits on, for example), without a vote of the people who will be directly affected by the acquisition of land. In the case of DIA, voters in Aurora approved the annexation. For the TV towers, I would argue this affects everybody from Castle Rock to Ft. Collins-- anybody who can receive TV from Lookout Mountain OTA-- especially in time of emergency when cable TV systems may not work. If the Comcast head-end was attacked by terrorists, our ability to get televised safety instructions would be compromised without the Lookout Mountain transmitters. This alone makes it a Northern Front Range issue.

As I understand the USSC ruling on takings, it is okay to rob Peter of his commercial property and give it to Paul to redevelop for commercial purposes for the greater benefit of the municipality. However, that case involved property already WITHIN the municipality. It had jurisdiction. Golden does not. And I don't recall a Poundstone-like state constitutional amendment being argued in the case.

To summarize, Golden's object is not to create open space; rather, open space is a means to achieving another end. Second, the land is not Golden's to condemn, take, and convert. It's county land. By definition, it must be annexed... it must be encroached upon by Golden. To annex anything in Colorado from one jurisdiction to another, the annexing entity must go through a Poundstone election of all people affected. In the case of TV transmissions from Lookout Mountain, that affects well over 1 million people from Castle Rock to Ft. Collins.

Wouldn't you agree?

Wouldn't you agree?
Nope, with this nit:

In the case of TV transmissions from Lookout Mountain, that affects well over 1 million people from Castle Rock to Ft. Collins.
It affects a hell of a lot more people than that! You forgot the Eastern plains, and down South, Northern Teller & Park counties. Without broadcasts from Denver, many of us would little or no OTA. The area that I live in has been 'granted' 3 Significantly Viewed stations from Denver. Which basically means that a certain percentage of people in this area are indeed watching broadcasts from Denver.

And, of course, we all would like to thank sCARE for making it very difficult to receive Digital Broadcasts down here. :mad:
....jc

Does a list of (S)CARE members exist somewhere?

I remember when a local developer in SLC was trying to sway the vote, most of his support was from out-of-state residents (i.e.: developer-friends). But, we finally found out who to blame.

The number I've seen is 2.2 million viewers.

Just an off topic reminder...

Cedia early bird registration expires July 19; price goes up $30 after that.

Don

Is this open to the public, or only to those in the industry?

In an earlier post, I reported reception problems with some of my tuners in receiving/decoding KTVD and that I had emailed Don Perez of KUSA asking that he look into what I think is a PSIP problem with KTVD. Unfortunately, I did not receive a reply from him.

Subsequently, there were posts after my post stating that for some members KTVD remapped to channel 19-3 while I receive it remapped to channel 19-1 on the receivers that can decode the signal and asking me to ask Don Perez when KUSA would be able to pass 5.1 audio.

On 9 NEWS on Sunday night, they reported that the consolidation of KTVD's operations into KUSA's operations was effective July 10 (Monday, today). I also could not receive KTVD on the receivers that I have that can decode their signal, so they apparently were off the air.

I emailed Don Perez again Sunday night asking him about KTVD's "problems" with being off the air, the PSIP info, and proper remapping to channel 20-1 along with when KUSA would begin passing 5.1 audio. I'll post the gist of any reply I receive.

On another note, isn't it amazing that despite the FCC's digital full power mandate on July 1, 2006, excepting the LCG consortium, that KWGN, KTFD, KBDI, KDVR, and KCEC are not full power and that KRMT and KPXC are not only not full power, they haven't even broadcasted under a low power STA? Is the FCC ever going to get involved with the Denver DMA situation? I think it's rediculous that I receive KGWN (Cheyenne) with a stronger signal that KCNC (both CBS) and KFCT (Ft. Collins) with a stronger signal than KDVR (both Fox). I should be able to receive the Denver stations with rabbit ears. Instead, I have a homemade (I may post a picture in the future) UHF yagi 39 element antenna on my roof to get marginal reception of KBDI and the need to have a rotor to change between Republic (and KFCT/KGWN) and Lookout stations. I'm sorry for the rant, but I'm just PO'd about the digital situation here in Denver, as I assume most of you are also.

Finally, it occurred to me that the City of Centennial was formed after Greenwood Village tried to cherry pick the high tax paying commercial properties via annexation while leaving the residential areas in unincorporated Arapahoe County alone. Does this situation have any relevance to the Golden condemenation/Poundstone Amendment application to the LCG property?

On another note, isn't it amazing that despite the FCC's digital full power mandate on July 1, 2006, excepting the LCG consortium, that KWGN, KTFD, KBDI, KDVR, and KCEC are not full power and that KRMT and KPXC are not only not full power, they haven't even broadcasted under a low power STA?
Uh, that was 2005!. :o

Is the FCC ever going to get involved with the Denver DMA situation?
Why should they? All of the stations are in good standing, and have been granted waivers. The problem is clearly SHREVA. It was crafted by the broadcasters, for the broadcasters. There are so many loopholes it's pathetic. The next thing I expect to see is a statewide waiver for the 2009 deadline. With what's gone on, it only makes sense.
....jc

Uh, that was 2005!. :o
Actually, the full-power deadline was supposed to be July 2006 for stations not affiliated with ABC, CBS, Fox or NBC. I believe KDVR would be covered by the earlier deadline, but not the rest of the stations you mentioned.

Wouldn't a "statewide waiver" be the end of local TV in Denver?

R-I-P: Free TV. SCARE wins. End of (this) battle. What industry do we destroy next? Hey, how 'bout yours?

Install on rainy Saturday went fine, yes I now get 4, 7, 9 and 31 Digital channels via D*. Got a new dish and a new H20 reciever, which works better than my old Panasonic. Still waiting on a new DVR, but the TIVO still works fine.

Other than that, the install wnet fine for my "upgrade".

Pookers- Let us know how the D* channels look vs. your local OTA channels. Thanks!

I just installed my new Dish 622/Dish1000 on Sunday (between the raindrops) I will report in on LIL on Dish vs. OTA. I haven't had time to do a good comparision yet.

Is this open to the public, or only to those in the industry?

It is not open to the public, but I bet there are some liberal membership terms.
Check out pages 60 - 64 of the registration brochure.

http://www.cedia.net/expo/CEDIA_EXPO_Reg06.pdf

I just installed my new Dish 622/Dish1000 on Sunday (between the raindrops) I will report in on LIL on Dish vs. OTA. I haven't had time to do a good comparision yet.
It'd be cool, to get a D* vs E* vs OTA comparision. However, I doubt that many people are set up to do that. But, then again? :p
....jc

As far as the PQ comparison for D* and OTA, I like to think the OTA is just a tad sharper, but the real truth is with a gun to my head and no graphic display of the channel, I probably couldn't tell the difference unless there is some artifacting on one and not the other. I have tried comparing such shows as the world cup finals and really don't see a distinguishable difference. In general I watch the OTA signal so I have yet to see any artifacting on the D* channels, but I haven't watched them a lot either.



This just posted this afternoon.

Press Release Source: DIRECTV, Inc.


DIRECTV Expands HD Sports Programming with MLB Games from Regional Sports Networks
Monday July 10, 4:42 pm ET
HD Games Now Available in 13 Major Markets
Six More Markets to Launch in Coming Weeks


EL SEGUNDO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--July 10, 2006--DIRECTV is stacking the lineup with more HD sports programming by delivering Major League Baseball games produced in HD by regional sports networks (RSNs) in 19 major markets.
ADVERTISEMENT


DIRECTV is now broadcasting all MLB games produced in HD from the following RSNs: FSN Prime Ticket (Los Angeles Dodgers), FSN West (Los Angeles Angels), FSN Bay Area (San Francisco Giants, Oakland A's), FSN South (Atlanta Braves), FSN Houston (Astros), FSN Detroit (Tigers), FSN Florida (Marlins, Devil Rays), SportsTime Ohio (Cleveland Indians), FSN North (Minnesota Twins), FSN Northwest (Seattle Mariners), FSN Arizona (Diamondbacks), FSN Rocky Mountain (Colorado Rockies) and Turner South (Atlanta Braves).

On July 18, HD MLB games from YES Network (Yankees) and FSN Southwest (Rangers HD games will be seen only in the Dallas DMA) will be available, as well as a continuous 24/7 HD feed from NESN HD (Red Sox). In August DIRECTV will deliver HD MLB games from SportsNet New York (Mets), as well as continuous 24/7 HD feeds from Comcast SportsNet Mid-Atlantic HD (Orioles) and Comcast SportsNet Chicago HDTV (Cubs, White Sox).

The RSNs' HD games will be broadcast by DIRECTV via a local market spot beam, and as a result, the RSN programming will be available only to those customers who live within the local DMA (designated market area) spot beam and the RSN team territory. The games will be available at no extra charge.

In addition to the MLB games, DIRECTV will also carry NHL and NBA games that are televised on the RSNs when their seasons start in the fall.

"If we hear one thing from our HD customers, it's 'give us more sports programming in HD,' and we plan to do that throughout the year, beginning with more Major League Baseball games in HD via the RSNs in several of the largest markets," said Dan Fawcett, executive vice president, Programming Acquisition, DIRECTV, Inc. "With all of the regional sports networks' games produced in HD -- including MLB, NHL and NBA, and the more than 110 NFL games DIRECTV will broadcast in HD this fall, we'll offer fans the best selection of HD sports programming available anywhere."

Customers who live within the RSN team territory and the spot beam area will also be required to have the H20 (MPEG4 compatible) HD receiver along with a five LNB dish to receive the RSN's HD programming. The HD games will be available on viewer channel 96 or 97 in each market, and the 24/7 RSNs will be seen on a separate channel that will have the same viewer channel number as their standard definition feed. For customers outside the spot beam, select HD games may be available on channel 95.

Customers can visit DIRECTV.com to determine if they are within the team territory and spot beam and can receive the games.

About DIRECTV, Inc.

DIRECTV, Inc. is the nation's leading digital television service provider with more than 15.4 million customers. DIRECTV and the Cyclone Design logo are registered trademarks of DIRECTV, Inc. DIRECTV (NYSE:DTV - News) is a world-leading provider of digital multichannel television entertainment. DIRECTV is approximately 38 percent owned by News Corporation.

No mention of Altitude, but it sure looks like they are headed that direction.

As far as the PQ comparison for D* and OTA, I like to think the OTA is just a tad sharper, but the real truth is with a gun to my head and no graphic display of the channel, I probably couldn't tell the difference unless there is some artifacting on one and not the other. I have tried comparing such shows as the world cup finals and really don't see a distinguishable difference. In general I watch the OTA signal so I have yet to see any artifacting on the D* channels, but I haven't watched them a lot either.

[

I agree. I have a setup with a Panasonic AE700 high def projector with a 100" 16:9 screen and I cannot tell the difference between OTA and D*. I watch mostly the OTA signal (out of habit) but I still get some occasional pixelation on my OTA signal so the D* signals are very nice to have.

In my earlier post, I did mean July 1, 2006. That was supposed to be the drop dead date for all full power analog stations to be full power digital. LP, translaters, etc. are not included.

I did receive an email reply from Don Perez (KUSA) today. The KTVD digital transmitter was off the air last night so that equipment could be moved. He explained that the equipment changes being made were very extensive, like "changing the engine in your car while driving down the highway". He acknowledged that there "are a number of PSIP issues" with KTVD that he hoped could be resolved in the next few days. He added that KTVD will be doing HD beginning in the fall. He did not address my question of when KUSA would be able to pass 5.1 audio.

I agree. I have a setup with a Panasonic AE700 high def projector with a 100" 16:9 screen and I cannot tell the difference between OTA and D*.
Just to make sure: You are talking about HD LIL(MPEG4) and not HD DNS(MPEG2)?
....jc

The basic gist of what I have dredged from many a forum is this...

720p: E* or D*, quality is on par with OTA in most cases; some compression issues in some markets

1080i: E* may have a slight edge over D* (1440x1080 vs 1280x1080?) but compression issues more pronounced from market to market, esp on E*

This is a big time generality though... I haven't run across too many people commenting specifically on Denver locals.

It's too bad neither one has KRMA-DT... My wife would not be happy if I took away one of her 3 PBS stations for more sports. :(

In my earlier post, I did mean July 1, 2006. That was supposed to be the drop dead date for all full power analog stations to be full power digital. LP, translaters, etc. are not included.
Gotcha. But, 2005 for the big 4 sounds more impressive(or depressing in our case).

I did receive an email reply from Don Perez (KUSA) today. The KTVD digital transmitter was off the air last night so that equipment could be moved. He explained that the equipment changes being made were very extensive, like "changing the engine in your car while driving down the highway". He acknowledged that there "are a number of PSIP issues" with KTVD that he hoped could be resolved in the next few days. He added that KTVD will be doing HD beginning in the fall. He did not address my question of when KUSA would be able to pass 5.1 audio.
Uh, oh. That means the KTVD could be history for me. :eek: Hang on.....It's still there! :p
....jc

Just to make sure: You are talking about HD LIL(MPEG4) and not HD DNS(MPEG2)?
....jc
Yup, D* lil is only in MPEG4!

Originally posted by jm:
Yup, D* lil is only in MPEG4!

The E* locals are also only in MPEG4. I believe this is the case for both D* & E* nationwide for all HD locals.

It looks like the KUSA engineer guys are working on KTVD. I can now decode their signal on all of my receivers although it still doesn't properly remap to channel 20-1. Watched a little bit of South Park and Home Improvement tonight but the signal kept breaking up and it had a lot of pixelation even though my E* 211 receiver averaged about 82% signal strength. Hopefully, they'll get things tweaked in the next few days. :)

TPW, I hope you don't lose reception in the KTVD tweaking process! And if 2005 sounds more depressing now, think how it'll sound in 2008 or even 2009. :(

I did a little comparing last night of E* LIL vs. OTA. I DVR'd both OTA and Sat shows to compare. I did notice a difference in PQ between the two. Granted, this is on a very high-end PJ and 84" screen.

I saw noticable pixelation in fast moving scenes on E* were the OTA was smoother. Also noticable was the issue was detail. On Leno OTA, you could see the threads on his suit completely, where the E* feed, they were blurry and you could not see that level of detail.

Same for CBS. I recorded CSI Miami Monday and the biggest problem with CBS LIL was the pixalation. Definitely an issue with the quick cutting and fast action scenes. The OTA was rock solid. Also, the color sat was a bit lower on E*.

Overall, pixelation problems are more apparent than the resolution. Because on most smaller HD displays, you might not notice it as you do when it's blown-up bigger. But pixelation show up on every display. Even my non-technical wife noticed it without telling her what to look for. So, it's there more than it needs to be.

Just to make sure: You are talking about HD LIL(MPEG4) and not HD DNS(MPEG2)?
....jc

Yes.. the HD locals on DirecTv are MPEG4 (H20 receiver and 5 lnb dish). My projector is a native 720P and that may explain no noticable difference to my eyes. Anyone have a 1080i projector they want to "loan" me for an extended evaluation period? :)

Does anybody know whose MPEG-4 / H.264 encoders DirecTv and EchoStar are using to encode their programming?

Does anybody know whose MPEG-4 / H.264 encoders DirecTv and EchoStar are using to encode their programming?They both use the Sears Kemvision 3000. ;)

I believe DirecTV uses Harmonic encoders. Here is a link from Broadcast and Engineering and a Linkf rom the Harmonic inc. Website.

http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/rfupdate/20060208/DIRECTV-Harmonic-20060208/index.html

http://www.harmonicinc.com/ah_press_release_text.cfm?ID=591

-Matt

Has anyone else noticed that on KTVD 19.1 everybody talks with a lisp?

After I read your post, I turned on 19-1. The picture pixelated at times, but the sound was fine at my location.

Anyone know what's up with Conan on KUSA?

Tonight both episodes were presented in 4:3 letterbox in the middle of an ornate, ornamental 16:9 border.

Is this NBC's doing, or is someone at KUSA being, uh, creative?

Medium was like that the other night. By 4:3 leterbox I assume you mean that it was a 16:9 aspect ratio but only as wide as a 4:3 image on a 16:9 TV. The border was KUSA's - I don't know if they do that when NBC sends them SD, or if they're having problems recording the HD shows. Leno was 4:3 last night (no fancy border, though), and I think it was new, so I'm guessing KUSA is the cause of the problem.

Pro tower letter in today's Rocky Mountain News, about 1/3 of the way down the page.
Letter to the Editor (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/letters/article/0,2777,DRMN_23966_4837064,00.html)

Great letter!!

Anyone know what's up with Conan on KUSA?

Tonight both episodes were presented in 4:3 letterbox in the middle of an ornate, ornamental 16:9 border.
I've noticed a few "oddities" from KUSA the past couple of weeks--HDTV programs shown as upconverts instead, the blue ornamental sidebars on SD programs that comes and goes during a program, etc.

The biggest problem I have now is many programs, such as the local news, are presented a little lower on the screen. This exposes up to a half an inch of black space across the top of the screen as well as occasional white dashes in the upper left corner on my 42" Samsung DLP. This isn't seen on every program from KUSA, wasn't a problem from KUSA before and never a problem on the other digital broadcasts.

Anyone else seeing the same thing?

The E* locals are also only in MPEG4. I believe this is the case for both D* & E* nationwide for all HD locals.

It looks like the KUSA engineer guys are working on KTVD. I can now decode their signal on all of my receivers although it still doesn't properly remap to channel 20-1. Watched a little bit of South Park and Home Improvement tonight but the signal kept breaking up and it had a lot of pixelation even though my E* 211 receiver averaged about 82% signal strength. Hopefully, they'll get things tweaked in the next few days. :)

TPW, I hope you don't lose reception in the KTVD tweaking process! And if 2005 sounds more depressing now, think how it'll sound in 2008 or even 2009. :(

There is something significantly wrong with the sound, too. Whether OTA or via cable, it sounds like everybody has a lisp. The picture is faded and dark, too.

Hopefully the channel 9 people can fix it, cause it looks like the channel 20 people gave up about six months ago.

I've noticed a few "oddities" from KUSA the past couple of weeks--HDTV programs shown as upconverts instead, the blue ornamental sidebars on SD programs that comes and goes during a program, etc.

The biggest problem I have now is many programs, such as the local news, are presented a little lower on the screen. This exposes up to a half an inch of black space across the top of the screen as well as occasional white dashes in the upper left corner on my 42" Samsung DLP. This isn't seen on every program from KUSA, wasn't a problem from KUSA before and never a problem on the other digital broadcasts.

Anyone else seeing the same thing?
Yes I am seeing the white dashes on 9news. 6332(dish channel for local HD). OTA into 2 dish receivers(211/622) and OTA connected directly in a TV. See this on both a Samsung 46" DLP and a Mitsubishi 62" DLP. Guess this pretty much means it is KUSA related.

After I read your post, I turned on 19-1. The picture pixelated at times, but the sound was fine at my location.
I didn't have any pixelation problems. I watched part of "That 70's Show" at 5:30 and two hours of Veronica Mars OTA. The lisp only occured on 19.1. All the other OTA stations I periodically checked were fine as far as sound. Hopefully they will get the issue fixed. Using a Samsung SIR-T451.

Has anyone else noticed that on KTVD 19.1 everybody talks with a lisp?

I too have noticed the awful 'raspy' audio on KTVD, as well as the lower picture on KUSA.
I spoke to my source at KUSA yesterday, who verified that they are trying to figure out the audio problem on channel 19, but as of yesterday they were working on audio issues with Channel 20 analog, and had yet to get to the 19 audio problems.

They are having all kinds of growing pains with the new systems that have been put in place to integrate KTVD & KUSA together, which is why so many shows have either not been in HD, or have had weird side bars. As of the last few weeks this is all KUSA/KTVD's issues, NOT NBC or UPN. I was hopeful that there might be a chance of some HD 'Veronica Mars' last night on KTVD, but obviously they have too many other problems to deal with, before getting HD UPN on KTVD...so no HD Veronica for me.

As for the 'lower' picture on KUSA, my source seemed a little surprised when I brought that up, so they have heard very little feedback about that. I encourage those of you that have noticed it as well to e-mail or call KUSA if you can.

Hopefully they will get this all ironed out on both stations in the near future.

I see the white dashes on KUSA's newscasts also. They are in the upper left top of the screen. I checked KTVD again. My shound is OK, but the picture does pixelate despite good signal strength. From the email I received from KUSA's Don Perez, I believe they are working the issues with KTVD.

I checked KTVD a few minutes ago and they no longer have the lisp. They have no sound at all. :(

Anybody else noticing KUSA-DT today going off the air for a few seconds repeatedly?? It wasn't just a fade, but a complete signal loss. Also last night on the analog signal everytime they switched from program to commercial there were a few seconds of dead air.

I just checked 19-1 a few minutes ago - 82% signal strength, no picture, no sound, just a black screen. Also, on the early news on 9News today, I also noticed a very small portion of the picture was off the screen. I noticed it when they showed the alergy graph. The bottom half of the writing on the last line below the graph was cut off.

The dashes that some of you are seeing on KUSA are VITC. (Vertical Interval Time Code) It is timing data that is put on lines 14 and 16. Normally this part of the picture is ouside of what we can see on the screen... However, when KUSA changed their HD equipment a few weeks ago (noted by the addition of the blue bars on 4x3 material) their entire picture moved down. They should be seeing this on their broadcast montitors... I'm very surprised they have not adjusted it yet. Not sure how much work they are doing on their HD systems - but lets hope it all gets sorted out by the fall premieres... especially the 5.1 sound!

However, when KUSA changed their HD equipment a few weeks ago (noted by the addition of the blue bars on 4x3 material) their entire picture moved down.Who at KUSA do we complain to to get rid of the stupid blue bars? They're annoying, distracting, ugly and just plain don't need to be there.

...Not sure how much work they are doing on their HD systems...Apparently not much - We know they read this forum, so they know about the problems we are seeing, but the first part of Leno last night was once again in SD, along with the blue bars and the white lines at the top of the picture... :mad:

Question for anyone getting the HD locals through D*: Is the PQ from KUSA showing the same problems there?

I just got the DirecTV HR10 250 today and also ordered the OTA that DirecTV recommended. When the installer got here, he said the OTA would not work and I would not get any HD signals on it. Is this true? I was bummed, but sent it back. I live in east Wash Park close to I-25 and University. I guess I have to wait until the HD-20 250 comes out?

I just got the DirecTV HR10 250 today and also ordered the OTA that DirecTV recommended. When the installer got here, he said the OTA would not work and I would not get any HD signals on it. Is this true? I was bummed, but sent it back. I live in east Wash Park close to I-25 and University. I guess I have to wait until the HD-20 250 comes out?
If you can "see" the Republic Plaza Building and Lookout mountain from YOUR ROOF, you should be able to get the HD OTA programming. You need a good UHF antenna (better than the one D* would bring out), mounted on your roof, to pick up the OTA. I live 11 miles SE with a fair view of RP from my roof and get all OTA channels.

Net: your installer probably was not willing to work very hard for you with your OTA antenna. And, I love my HD Tivo. I can't imagine the D* HD DVR will be as good.

There are lots of posts about reception in this thread. Go to this site for more information: http://www.denverdtv.info/

On 9News' 10:00 broadcast tonight, I did not notice any white dashes at the top of the screen, so it looks like they fixed that. It also looks like they may have corrected dropping a very small portion of the bottom of the picture although I can't say for sure from just one broadcast.

For KTVD, the channel now remaps properly to 20-1. But my E* 211 will not decode the signal - no picture, no sound, but does lock and has a good signal strength. I have no problems with the signal on my other 4 receivers. Anyone else have an E*211 that can't decode KTVD?

For KTVD, the channel now remaps properly to 20-1. But my E* 211 will not decode the signal - no picture, no sound, but does lock and has a good signal strength. I have no problems with the signal on my other 4 receivers. Anyone else have an E*211 that can't decode KTVD?
I don't have the E*211 but a Samsung SIR-T451. I was getting picture but no sound last night. For the first time the channel did remap to 20-1 on my unit.

If you can "see" the Republic Plaza Building and Lookout mountain from YOUR ROOF, you should be able to get the HD OTA programming. You need a good UHF antenna (better than the one D* would bring out), mounted on your roof, to pick up the OTA. I live 11 miles SE with a fair view of RP from my roof and get all OTA channels.

Net: your installer probably was not willing to work very hard for you with your OTA antenna. And, I love my HD Tivo. I can't imagine the D* HD DVR will be as good.

There are lots of posts about reception in this thread. Go to this site for more information: http://www.denverdtv.info/

Actually I can't see Republic Plaza from my roof, but my Radio Shack Yagi obviously can. I am about 10 miles almost due west from downtown, in a slight depression with a small rise and all that clutter between me and RP. I get PBS, NBC, CBS and now ABC just fine despite no line of sight -- so it is possible!

On 9News' 10:00 broadcast tonight, I did not notice any white dashes at the top of the screen, so it looks like they fixed that. It also looks like they may have corrected dropping a very small portion of the bottom of the picture although I can't say for sure from just one broadcast.

Channel 9 news also looked OK today. No white dashes or clipping off the bottom of the screen

Hi, folks,

I'm new to this forum, but have been on the ReplayTV and TiVo community forums for a while.

I recently got a 42" LCD and have been suffering with the extravagantly expensive and subpar HD service from Comcast - Lafayette.

I got a Samsung SIR-T451 today, and am trying to get signal facing south from eastern Boulder county (Hwy 287 & Arapahoe). I have a real antenna on the way, right now I am repurposing the Sprint terrestrial broadband transceiver panel from my old Internet service.

I think that it is criminally ironic that I get "The WB" (soon to be defunct) perfectly OTA, but can't get ABC, NBC or Fox to lock in.

I haven't read all 525 pages of this thread, so forgive me if I sound n00bie.

Has anyone considered launching a class-action suit naming the City of Golden and sCARE as interfering with the fair use of citizen's bandwidth?

Also, is anyone in Boulder, Lafayette, Louisville getting signal from both Republic Plaza and Lookout Mtn without a rotating antenna? Tips for antenna positioning north of Denver?

Thanks, keep on fighting the good fight.

Hi, folks,

I'm new to this forum, but have been on the ReplayTV and TiVo community forums for a while.

I recently got a 42" LCD and have been suffering with the extravagantly expensive and subpar HD service from Comcast - Lafayette.

I got a Samsung SIR-T451 today, and am trying to get signal facing south from eastern Boulder county (Hwy 287 & Arapahoe). I have a real antenna on the way, right now I am repurposing the Sprint terrestrial broadband transceiver panel from my old Internet service.

I think that it is criminally ironic that I get "The WB" (soon to be defunct) perfectly OTA, but can't get ABC, NBC or Fox to lock in.

I haven't read all 525 pages of this thread, so forgive me if I sound n00bie.

Has anyone considered launching a class-action suit naming the City of Golden and sCARE as interfering with the fair use of citizen's bandwidth?

Also, is anyone in Boulder, Lafayette, Louisville getting signal from both Republic Plaza and Lookout Mtn without a rotating antenna? Tips for antenna positioning north of Denver?

Thanks, keep on fighting the good fight.

There has been talk of a 'class action suit', but I really doubt you could prove much merit until/unless the analog was shut off and there were no digital channels available OTA (i.e. after the cutoff date). At that point I think you could find a whole lot of lawyers who would take that case for a commission.

As for picking up signals I am near 75th and Lookout (on the south side) and use a Radio Shack UHF only antenna (I have had it for years, don't remember the number, but it was about $35). I get everything from the RP at about 75% and easily get the DTV from Lookout stations without turning the antenna. I don't get a whiff of KBDI though although some people nearby apparently get that as well. You should have a good shot from where your at unless you are on the north slope of a hill. You don't need a line of site as long as you are close.

Golden looks like they lose.

Take a look at hdtvcolorado's website

Golden looks like they lose.

Take a look at hdtvcolorado's website
:confused: There's nothing new there...

Dr's correct, nothing 'new'. But, just to update everybody on the Commissioners vote...

The JeffCo Commissioners are deciding right now (And will publicly announce in a couple of weeks) whether to either vote now ONLY the facts presented thus far and abiding with Judge Jackson's ruling that they could not use sCARE/Golden's stupid 'tower fall' testimony. That would be a huge win for the tower application.

or

They could ignore the Judge and re-open the entire thing back up to more public hearings and obviously additional LCGII lawsuits and remands back to the Judge etc.

My guess is, I don't think they want to put themselves, into endless legal fights and costs for the rest of their lazy, cushy term as Commissioners.

Thanks very much for that helpful info, JM.

I'm pretty close to you, though I suspect you have a fwe feet of evelavtion on me. But, I am on what they call "Beacon Hill" where the road rises between Baseline & Arapahoe, near the Erie Safeway.

I have line of sight, more or less, except for some foliage. My antenna is about 35 feet off the ground, and easily looks over all houses and structures between me and Lookout. Not sure about RP, since there are trees in the way.

I got a bidirectional Winegard 2200 wing antenna, with amp. We'll see how well that does, hopefully this weekend. I'd like to return the Comcast digital cable kruft ASAP.