Denver, CO - OTA [Text View] - Page 65

BobLikesHDTV

08-04-06, 06:45 PM

You are correct, the Commissioners, per Judge Jackson's order to quickly re-vote the application were to make a decision to either vote now or open the whole thing up to new public hearings.

Well, I heard yesterday that the Commissioners are delaying their decision indefinitely. They won't make that decision for another couple of months. Why??? I think they just want to drag this out until their terms are over! ;)

Seriously, I think they are discussing their options with their attorneys to see if they really can open this up to new hearings or if they must just vote.

Hi Ernie,

I saw the commercial, btw. Looks great.

It is three months to the election, and one of the three is up for re-election. Most politicians in that position play the "don't bring the issue up if nobody else does" card.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the three Republican commissioners have made a "do no evil" pact, so this doesn't become one of those issues. And I can't say I blame them.

Based on my conversations with Kathy Hartman, the D running for commissioner, she is also against the tower.

Here's the plan. As I find out times and dates for debates and appearances by the commissioner candidates, I'll post them here. The object of the game is to pack the debates with people from our side, complete with pro-tower T-shirts, banners, and such and make them understand the potential impact on their campaigns of voting against the tower. The object is to get somebody to commit publicly for the tower.

It is also parade and fair season throughout Jeffco, from Westminster to Clement Park. We need a presence there, too.

Friends, I really think it's time to look at forming a PAC for this election, promising campaign money to whomever backs the Tower. And it wouldn't hurt if the TV station execs help us organize and fund it, pointing us in the right direction for potential donors. And it wouldn't hurt if they knew a lawyer or two willing to work pro bono (as in, as volunteers) to help organize and maintain it.

I think it would better serve members of the forum who are spending hundreds of dollars and so much time on OTA antenna systems to donate a few dollars and hours to a Pro-tower PAC and see what happens. It may allow you to save tons of money in the long run.

Monday I'm going to talk to the Secty of State's office about how to do this. I haven't formed one in a while and want to know all the details.

My first question is, what's a good name (with a good acronym) for the PAC?

We have three months to make this a major political issue. It's Bronco and Political season, with lots of new HDTV sets all around town. It's time to make NOISE!

TotallyPreWired

08-04-06, 06:45 PM

For those seeking an slick way to get ATSC broadcasts on your laptop, try this link:
http://www.artec.com.tw/ehtm/be124.htm
Nice toy. But what good will it do in the Denver area?

Also, since you are alive: Why doesn't KWGN improve their signal to the South? I'm assuming that if KDVR can do it, so can you. :eek:
....jc

BobLikesHDTV

08-04-06, 07:28 PM

The following is a list of Jeffco Events. These events are great opportunities to get out there and sell the Tower!

8/11 - 13

Edgewater Days

http://www.edgewaterco.com/News_Events/pressrelease.pdf

24th and Chase, Edgewater

Fri - 4:30 - 10:30 PM
Sat - 10:00 AM - 10:30 PM (parade starts at 10AM)
Sun -8 AM - 12 Noon

It looks like good entertainment. Hazel Miller on Friday night and Wendy Woo on Saturday night. Entertainment is a great time to be there, handing out literature or just sitting there with a T-shirt on promoting the Tower.

Also in Edgewater throughout the Summer:

Concerts in the Park
Memorial Park - 25th and Chase (one block down from the venue above)
Sundays from 6:30 - 8 PM

* * *

8/17 - 19

Wheat Ridge Carnation Festival

http://www.ci.wheatridge.co.us/uploads/1/4538.pdf

Noon to 10 PM each day

Park up & down 44th Av from Robb St to Upham St. A shuttle will take you to and from the venue every 20 minutes.

* * *

8/25 - 26

Lakewood on Parade

http://www.lakewoodonparade.com/lop.php?section=home

Belmar Park and Center, on Wadsworth between Alameda and Ohio

Fri - 4PM - 10 PM
Sat - 11 AM - 10 PM

The parade begins on Sat at 9:30 AM at Belmar Center (the nice new mixed-use shopping/housing center at Alameda and Wadsworth).

* * *

9/8 - 10

Arvada Harvest Festival

http://www.arvadaharvestfestival.com/

Historic Old Town Arvada

Fri - 5:30PM - 11:30PM
Sat - 9 AM to 11ish PM (they give no end time!!)
Sun - 7 AM (5 mile walk-run)
11 AM - 5 PM (fair)

* * *

9/15 - 17

Summerset Festival

http://www.summersetfest.com/mainpages/schedule.htm

Clement Park, Littleton (Wadsworth and Bowles)

Fri - 5PM - 9 PM (ends with a hot air balloon glow - really neat!)
Sat - 7AM - 9PM (begins with a pancake breakfast, mid-day car show, ends with a
concert)
Sun - 7 AM to 5 PM

bjcatlin

08-04-06, 07:44 PM

For those seeking an slick way to get ATSC broadcasts on your laptop, try this link:
http://www.artec.com.tw/ehtm/be124.htm

So how do I attach my CM4228 antenna to this little thing? There's certainly no way I'll get a whiff of the RP channels without a giant antenna hooked up! :D It does look like a usefull little gadget. Maybe I'll get one in Feb 09.

milehighmike

08-04-06, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by KGWN:
For those seeking an slick way to get ATSC broadcasts on your laptop, try this link:

Nice piece of equipment. But, besides the low power situation in Denver, two other "problems" with this device. One - no price quoted. When I see this, it usually means a high price. Two - to get HD, a computer needs a P4 3 Ghz chip. While they may be out there, I don't recall seeing any laptop with a chip this fast.

jayn_j

08-04-06, 11:26 PM

When I see this, it usually means a high price. Two - to get HD, a computer needs a P4 3 Ghz chip. While they may be out there, I don't recall seeing any laptop with a chip this fast.

Uh, I'm typing this response on an HP ZV5450. P4 3.4 GHz, 1.2GB Ram, 100 GB HD. ATI MOBILITY RADEON 9000 IGP with 128 MB DDR video. i believe it would meet the specs. However, the display tops out at 1280x800.

It looks like the ones being marketed today are using dual cores with slower clocks though. I don't know how that would work with this card. Can it be task shared between two processors?

oxothuk

08-04-06, 11:35 PM

Two - to get HD, a computer needs a P4 3 Ghz chip.
Not true. You need a USB 2 connection to handle the data rate, but after that it takes very little CPU power to to transfer a 20Mbps ATSC data stream to your hard disk. I suspect it will run down your battery pretty quickly, though.

As for displaying HD on your laptop screen, the main thing you need is a modern graphics chip with DxVa support.

I had (still have) a SASEM USB tuner which I could use to watch HDTV on a 4 year old Thinkpad. Together with a Zenith Silver Sensor, I used it a few times to check out the HD scene when visiting my relatives back east.

alluringreality

08-05-06, 12:34 AM

I'm at 13th and Grant in a third floor apartment. I have a view to the North, so NBC CBS and PBS are easy enough to get (I have line of sight to the transmitters that are 0.6 miles away). I don't have line of sight West, so Fox is blocked at my location (top spot on antennaweb - yellow 13.4 miles). The building does have an antenna, but analog has a lot of ghosts and I didn't get anything on DTV.

I would like to be able to get Fox easier than I can currently. I'm now using an unamplified RCA loop with the internal tuner on last year's Syntax Olevia. With a lot of positioning and tuning it's possible to get Fox to work but then the others stop working. I've tried a different loop, a Terk TV5, and a Terk HDTVa which were not as good as the RCA. I also tried a Terk TV55 that could pick up Fox easy enough, but moving around in the room caused dropouts.

Last year I had been told by people selling tvs that being downtown it should be no problem getting OTA DTV. That hadn't been my experience with anything except the line of sight stations. Finally on antenna #6 things work. Fox comes in at 80% or better, where before it was only occasionally possible to get it to work without dropout.

The Radio Shack 15-1892 has been able to deliver all the local DTV stations by simply plugging it in, setting the position for Fox, and shutting it off. I finally decided to try this antenna because it had a front to back ratio like the Winegards. Although the employee tried to talk me out of trying the model, anyone having similar problems might want to give it a shot.

milehighmike

08-05-06, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by Oxothuk:
Not true. You need a USB 2 connection to handle the data rate, but after that it takes very little CPU power to to transfer a 20Mbps ATSC data stream to your hard disk. I suspect it will run down your battery pretty quickly, though.

The P4 3 Ghz I quoted was from the spec sheet of the device on the web page. I didn't make that up!! It doesn't need that for SD, only HD.

adam1115

08-05-06, 01:06 PM

Just wondering if the radio shack VU-190 or similar would be worth the effort for me in Johnstown. My home is located at a pretty high point in the city and I can place on the roof with a pretty good line of site towards Denver. The local cable here stinks.... no chance of HD this year. I guess my question is would I be wasting money going this route with an antenna and amp? Any input much appreciated.

You'll just have to try it, aim it for downtown. You will for sure get WB2 and Fox31.

If you flip it towards WY, you will get CBS from Cheyenne and Fox31 from Fort Collins' repeater.

adam1115

08-05-06, 01:12 PM

For the people that live in Brighton, what is the recommendations on an antenna? I am just about to finally make the HD plunge.

I'm at 27th and bromely, two story house, and put a radio shack antenna in my attic, works fine..

AGZELA

08-05-06, 03:24 PM

Read from bottom to top

From: AGZELA
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 1:05 PM
To: 'Karenoxman@aol.com'
Cc: 'cbaroch@ci.golden.co.us'; 'mweaver@ci.golden.co.us'; 'jbehm@ci.golden.co.us'; 'dchesbro@ci.golden.co.us'; 'jsmith@ci.golden.co.us'; 'koxman@ci.golden.co.us'; 'ltimpeiro@ci.golden.co.us'; 'commish1@jeffco.us'; 'commish2@jeffco.us'; 'commish3@jeffco.us'
Subject: RE: Lake Cedar Group plan

Thank you for your prompt response, I do need to tell you that I cannot get a signal (I am using the highest grade antenna) from the temporary downtown Denver Republic Plaza building tower (13 miles away), Is this not proof that placing the tower on the tallest building in Denver will be a waste?

You cant compare the buildings in NYC to Denver's its just not fair. The majority of the new digital towers were placed on the Empire State building. Do we have a man-made structure that tall in Denver? other than the mountains?

FYI- My last year in NY I moved to Mahwah,NJ about 35 miles northwest of the city (as the crow flies), and was not able to get a good signal (using the highest grade antenna) from the broadcast towers on the (second tallest building in America) Empire State building. Correct, they don't have mountains like we do, essentially eliminating any options for those people who want free digital channels.....

There is a reason for the placement of the towers at the Lookout Mountain location, the engineers 50 years ago thought the same and that's why they strategically placed them there...... How can you argue this? are you qualified as a broadcast engineer?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Karenoxman@aol.com [mailto:Karenoxman@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 8:32 AM
To: AGZELA
Cc: citycouncil@ci.golden.co.us
Subject: Re: Lake Cedar Group plan

I appreciate your concerns. I was in NYC on that fateful day and had difficulty reaching my son, who lives there, on his cell phone. I was happy that I could return home to Golden....albeit by rental car, several days late. I had visited the WTC towers 3 days prior.

However, being from NYC, you are most certainly aware that NYC has no mountains. Neither do Chicago, Dallas, etc. So, where are the signal towers placed in those areas? This is something that is seldom mentioned by Lake Cedar Group. Of course, they are placed on the tallest buildings!

Please visit Golden.......then you might have an idea of why we would like Open Space on that area, and why we are concerned with the preservation of our mountain backdrop for future generations. The existing towers are a 'non-conforming use', established many years before anyone in planning had the ability to think to the future impacts. The area was pretty much devoid of populations of people. Now, planners are thinking ahead.

Sometimes, as we know, the media skewes the facts, and in this case, Lake Cedar has the advantage of its ties to media!

Karen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: AGZELA
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 6:34 AM
To: 'cbaroch@ci.golden.co.us'; 'mweaver@ci.golden.co.us'; 'jbehm@ci.golden.co.us'; 'dchesbro@ci.golden.co.us'; 'jsmith@ci.golden.co.us'; 'koxman@ci.golden.co.us'; 'ltimpeiro@ci.golden.co.us'
Subject: Lake Cedar Group plan

I want to express in short to please allow the Lake Cedar Group to go along with its plan to offer better reception of over-the-air FREE! digital channels.

I moved here from NYC two years ago and have not been able to get a proper over-the-air signal of HD channels, I am reliving what I went through after September 11 in NYC when the digital broadcast towers were destroyed by the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center.

Why are you opposing many residents that want free channels and less towers to look at?

Symbios

08-05-06, 04:26 PM

TotallyPreWired

08-05-06, 05:11 PM

However, being from NYC, you are most certainly aware that NYC has no mountains. Neither do Chicago, Dallas, etc. So, where are the signal towers placed in those areas? This is something that is seldom mentioned by Lake Cedar Group. Of course, they are placed on the tallest buildings!
Karen,
I appreciate your attempts to justify RP as proper place to install LCG antennas, and I want to help you with your arguments. Yup, I am your friend. As you noted NYC, Chicago & Dallas have no mountains. Thus the highest location in which to place antennas is indeed on the top of a building. See, I agree(Are we buddies yet? :rolleyes: ) Colorado has lots of high 'buildings' too. And I agree that we should place our antennas on top of one of these high 'buildings'. However, these 'buildings', unlike the 'buildings' in NYC, Chicago & Dallas were made thousands(possibly millions of years ago), and they are made from an ancient material called rock(mostly granite, but I don't want to get too technical here). Now these old rock buildings have served a similar function as the steel and glass buildings found in other places. People work in them, and some people have even lived in them. We have one 'building' in particular that has an advantage over all of the other 'buildings' in Colorado: It lies in a superior location, and it's sufficiently high. For decades the locals have called it the 'Lookout Mountain 'Building'. Now, way back when, those smart engineers from the local television stations decided that the best place to install their antennas was on top of the 'Lookout Mountain Building'. It was the best place then, and since no one has built a building with a better location, it's the best place now.

So, see we do agree, antennas should be placed on 'buildings'.

Please visit Golden.......then you might have an idea of why we would like Open Space on that area, and why we are concerned with the preservation of our mountain backdrop for future generations. The existing towers are a 'non-conforming use', established many years before anyone in planning had the ability to think to the future impacts. The area was pretty much devoid of populations of people. Now, planners are thinking ahead.
Karen, you are sooo right. And I agree that Golden needs more open space. I think that with the proper selection of expertise, explosives and machines, we could start at the Northern city limits and rid ourselves of all of that pesky concrete, ugly buildings, and any trace of modern life. Just think of the 100's of acre's of 'Open Space'. Think of the parks, lakes, golf courses and fountains we could build! It would be the Perfect City, the Perfect place to live. It would be the place for all of those Perfect people. We have so much to do, we need to get started immediately!

So, see we do agree, Golden needs more Open Space!

And I hope that we remain lifelong 'friends'. Because, after all we agree on lots of things.
....jc

Big Worms

08-05-06, 05:43 PM

I'm at 27th and bromely, two story house, and put a radio shack antenna in my attic, works fine..
Still haven't had a chance to go, but did you buy it at Radio Shack?

AGZELA

08-05-06, 07:06 PM

Karen,
I appreciate your attempts to justify RP as proper place to install LCG antennas, and I want to help you with your arguments. Yup, I am your friend. As you noted NYC, Chicago & Dallas have no mountains. Thus the highest location in which to place antennas is indeed on the top of a building. See, I agree(Are we buddies yet? :rolleyes: ) Colorado has lots of high 'buildings' too. And I agree that we should place our antennas on top of one of these high 'buildings'. However, these 'buildings', unlike the 'buildings' in NYC, Chicago & Dallas were made thousands(possibly millions of years ago), and they are made from an ancient material called rock(mostly granite, but I don't want to get too technical here). Now these old rock buildings have served a similar function as the steel and glass buildings found in other places. People work in them, and some people have even lived in them. We have one 'building' in particular that has an advantage over all of the other 'buildings' in Colorado: It lies in a superior location, and it's sufficiently high. For decades the locals have called it the 'Lookout Mountain 'Building'. Now, way back when, those smart engineers from the local television stations decided that the best place to install their antennas was on top of the 'Lookout Mountain Building'. It was the best place then, and since no one has built a building with a better location, it's the best place now.

So, see we do agree, antennas should be placed on 'buildings'.

Karen, you are sooo right. And I agree that Golden needs more open space. I think that with the proper selection of expertise, explosives and machines, we could start at the Northern city limits and rid ourselves of all of that pesky concrete, ugly buildings, and any trace of modern life. Just think of the 100's of acre's of 'Open Space'. Think of the parks, lakes, golf courses and fountains we could build! It would be the Perfect City, the Perfect place to live. It would be the place for all of those Perfect people. We have so much to do, we need to get started immediately!

So, see we do agree, Golden needs more Open Space!

And I hope that we remain lifelong 'friends'. Because, after all we agree on lots of things.
....jc

You have to send all this to her in an email tell her I posted it in the AVS forum. FUNNY!!!!

kadok

08-05-06, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by KGWN:

Nice piece of equipment. But, besides the low power situation in Denver, two other "problems" with this device. One - no price quoted. When I see this, it usually means a high price. Two - to get HD, a computer needs a P4 3 Ghz chip. While they may be out there, I don't recall seeing any laptop with a chip this fast.
$90
Artec T14A Mini USB 2.0 HDTV tuner - AVS Forum

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=682269

Jeremy Tebo

08-05-06, 08:26 PM

I have a new (free :D) HD Tivo coming my way next week. If you can figure out if the Zentih HD-SAT520 will work without DirecTV service, I'll let it go cheap. It doesn't come with a remote either, but you should be able to get a cheap replacement or universal remote. Otherwise, it will probably go in my stack of old stuff, since I'm usually too lazy to ebay.

PM me if interested.

Thanks for the replies. I would assume you can use a DirecTV HD receiver without the DirecTV service - can anyone confirm that? If so I'd definitely like to take that off your hands.

The HTPC option would be nice, I was thinking I would like to do that if and when I get a flat panel display of some kind - right now I'm working with a 36" Sony CRT, and as I understand it that's not a good choice as a display.

longrider

08-05-06, 11:15 PM

All DirecTV receivers except for the new H20 can be used for OTA without a subscription. Most do require the access card to be in place even if turned off, however that should not be an issue since D* will deactivate it and the new receiver will have a new one.

kenglish

08-06-06, 10:12 AM

And, of course, NYC is a lot flatter than the Denver/Rocky Mountain area.

So, a building is usually the highest thing around. The buildings in New York City don't have to compete with mountains in the "who's the highest" contest.

ppasteur

08-06-06, 10:31 AM

Thanks for the replies. I would assume you can use a DirecTV HD receiver without the DirecTV service - can anyone confirm that? If so I'd definitely like to take that off your hands..

If this doesn't work out...

I have a Samsung SIR-T361 that I am using for OTA HD. It is a D* receiver. It does require a card, but I bought it with one. I got it for $50 and $12 shipping on Ebay. It was a refurb unit, but looked new and has worked fine.This was awhile back, but you might check there from time to time.

Phil P.

ppasteur

08-06-06, 10:41 AM

Agzela,
Who is this Karen Oxman person? I did not see her on your original list of recipients. I wrote her last night. She responded in about two minutes. Not even sure she had time to read my note!

This is what I wrote:

Karen,

I just thought that I would like to comment on your email to my friend AGZELA.

I know that this is a topic that has been highly politicized. As is usual everyone seems to have their opinions based upon their own agendas. My agenda, and that of hundreds of thousands of Denver/Golden area residents is to be able to join the people in all of the other major US markets in being able to access local HDTV broadcasts. Many people cannot now do this, and others that can, have had to go to extraordinary efforts to do so.

You mention other large cities having their broadcasters place their antennas on the highest building available. Of course this is true. There are several reasons for this, the first is that this is the best place for them to be located. It is the highest point available, it is all that they have, so they make do. In Denver this is not at all practical. The most glaring difference is that the cities that you mention have buildings that are in excess of three times taller than anything we have here. You also omit the fact that in cities such as Los Angles and San Francisco, they use high points in the surrounding terrain instead. They do that for a good reason. They do it because it is the best solution!

In the Denver/Golden area, we have no buildings that can provide the required signal coverage. We also do not have any with the structural capacity and that can provide the electrical requirements needed to support all of our local stations in a full power mode. In short, we cannot do, here, what a few other large cities have done.

I live only about 7 miles from Republic Plaza where the current low power transmitters are located. In order to receive signals for broadcasters transmitting from there I had to spend several hundred dollars on a large antenna thirty feet above my roof. This is obviously not something that the people most likely to need over the air TV, the poorest of us, are going to be able to do. Putting the transmitters on any building in Denver, after the 2009 analog shutoff date, would cut off a huge number of people in the Denver area from not only entertainment, but a primary source of emergency communications. Are your mountain views really more important than the health and well being of hundreds of thousands of people during some future potential disaster?

I have visited Golden on many occasions. I worked at Rocky Flats for some six years. We had lunch in Golden a few times per month. I really don’t ever remember seeing any towers on Lookout Mountain. I am sure that they were there. Perhaps this is because I was not hypersensitized to them being there.

Lake Cedar Group has offered to take down several towers that are on the top of the mountain and replace them with one at a lower level. I cannot see how you would not think that this would be an improvement. I suppose that you think that if they don’t build the new tower, the old ones will just go away. I suggest that this is far from the case. Instead, you will be stuck with more towers higher up on the mountain than if the LCG plan was approved. From what I understand, if the new tower is built, a larger plot of land will be donated …DONATED, to Jefferson County as open space, than the plot that Golden will pay millions for if it succeeds in it bid to seize the area to be used for the new tower. In fact the LCG group has committed to maintain that land and continue to pay taxes on it. Does this not sound like the best option if Golden actually wants more open space surrounding it? Is this not a more cost effective option for the taxpayers of Golden?

The Engineers of fifty years ago made the proper decision in placing the transmitting antennas where they are today. It was simply the best choice then, and it is still today. There is no better place to transmit from. There is no other place that will not inconvenience or totally cut off tens if not hundreds of thousands of residents from digital TV. It seems to me that pushing for such a solution is downright selfish of you. It reminds me of the same sort of situation where people buy houses within a short distance of a long established airport, then start asking for legal intervention because of the noise.

From most places in Golden one has to crane ones neck to even see the towers. Maybe a simple solution is not to waste all of that energy looking for something to make you unhappy.

I agree with you that the “media” can mold our realities in many ways. Recent and past focus on supposed scandals in Hollywood are an example. However, I have been following this tower tragedy for almost ten years. In this case their message rings very true. They have bent over backwards to accommodate the wishes of a few. They have agreed to spend a great deal more money than they would have had to otherwise. This is a case of the vocal minority depriving the silent majority of a privilege that is generally considered to be universal in the US, the unfettered access to all of our radio frequency spectrum. In particular here, free digital TV. They have not skewed facts, the people that they are trying to work with have. The anti-tower people have consistently misrepresented the facts and engaged in scare mongering . After almost ten years and at the waste of hundreds of thousands of dollars, it is only very recently that the LCG has taken its side of the story to the people.

Just keep in mind that when you talk about planners and “future impacts”, you may not get what you want. Instead of getting a better situation on Lookout Mountain, you will keep what you have. You will undoubtedly fail in your attempt to seize the land due to the Poundstone Amendment and the Jeffco commissioners coming out against it. You will have wasted the money of the taxpayers in Golden in the futile attempt.

In the mean time, please consider how many people that you are “impacting” with your obstructionist methodology!

Thanks for your time,

Phil Pasteur

She wrote back and said, basically.
"This is all very interesting, but the fate of the towers is in the hands of the Jeffco Commisioners now"

BTW I sent a CC to all of the people that you had on your list. Hope I did not intrude where I should not have!

BobLikesHDTV

08-06-06, 12:05 PM

Haha! I just don't get this, why do they keep saying "we're just trying to preserve our mountain backdrop". It really does make it sound like they're trying to keep all of the current towers the way they are.

Let me throw in that the second largest television market it America, Los Angeles, has the vast majority of TV and radio towers set on Mount Wilson. The engineers picked Mount Wilson for the same reason they picked Lookout here... VHF and UHF frequencies operate based on line-of-sight. The Los Angeles area is spread out, much like the Front Range. To reach the market properly without having to build repeaters everywhere, if you have a mountain nearby that affords line-of-sight to the largest number of people, you use it. If there was a mountain range ringing Manhattan, it would be the site of the tri-state area's TV and FM radio towers.

Also in that comment by the one commissioner, didn't we learn how vulnerable to terrorist attack our buildings are? If that building contains all of our local TV and radio station transmitters and it comes down, the Front Range is effectively cut off from the information that may be vital to maintaining order. As I keep saying, Lookout Mountain is key to our security.

I'd love to get hold of the campaign financial records of the city council members in Golden. I wouldn't be surprised to see Comcast and Satellite company money in there.

gakon

08-06-06, 01:01 PM

I'd love to get hold of the campaign financial records of the city council members in Golden. I wouldn't be surprised to see Comcast and Satellite company money in there.Really? You think that those companies are going to spend money just to keep the people who ONLY want OTA HD from getting it? Regardless of how many people actually use OTA, the broadcasters will still have to provide a full power signal, and eventually they will. I'm sure those records are available to the public - let us know what you find out.

BobLikesHDTV

08-06-06, 01:14 PM

From: Karenoxman@aol.com [mailto:Karenoxman@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 8:32 AM
To: AGZELA
Cc: citycouncil@ci.golden.co.us
Subject: Re: Lake Cedar Group plan

I appreciate your concerns. I was in NYC on that fateful day and had difficulty reaching my son, who lives there, on his cell phone. I was happy that I could return home to Golden....albeit by rental car, several days late. I had visited the WTC towers 3 days prior.

My letter to her:

Dear Ms. Oxman:

Thank you for reading my correspondence.

You recently replied to a letter requesting support for locating the Front Range's future digital TV transmitter sites on Lookout Mountain. This is a position with which you do not agree. That letter and your reply were shared with the concerned members of an online forum. Your reply prompts my comments.

First, and you may not be aware of it, but the second largest television market it America, Los Angeles, has the vast majority of its TV and radio towers set on Mount Wilson.

The engineers picked Mount Wilson for the same reason they picked Lookout here... VHF and UHF frequencies operate based on line-of-sight. The Los Angeles area is spread out, much like our Front Range. To reach a market properly without having to build repeaters everywhere, if the area has a mountain range nearby that affords line-of-sight to the largest number of people, it is used. If there had been a mountain range ringing Manhattan, I have no doubt it would be the site of the Tri-state area's TV and FM transmitters.

Having grown up in Staten Island and having visited family in Bayonne and Jersey City, across the Hudson River, back when the towers were on the Empire State Building, I can say first-hand the TV stations were often unwatchable from New Jersey. With most digital broadcasts now coming from Republic Plaza in downtown Denver, the same is now and will continue to be true for most of the Front Range, from Castle Rock to Ft. Collins and Greeley. The decision being made in Jefferson County will affect more than just Golden.

Regional security will be affected as well. Didn't we learn on 9/11 just how vulnerable tall buildings are to terrorist attacks? If a building like Republic Plaza is targeted and brought down by terrorists, the Front Range will be effectively cut off over-the-air from vital security. This will makes more difficult for civil authorities, like you, to maintain order. If people don't know what to do, duct tape and plastic wrap not withstanding, and they can't get that information by TV or radio, all of our safety is in jeopardy. That is part of what went wrong in New Orleans with Hurricane Katrina. The principle source of information was cut off, and people died because of it. Lookout Mountain is not just key to the continuing profits of large broadcasting corporations. It is key to our regional security.

Triage exercises since 9/11 have shown vast failures in the ability of municipalities and emergency personnel to respond to a potential crisis along the Front Range. How much more difficult will it be when the TV towers are moved downtown, assuming the citizens of Denver will allow it? I think Golden's commissioners are being a bit short-sighted in this respect. I think if this was offered as an answer for an average Public Administration course exam, it would receive a grade of "F". I hope the Jeffco commissioners are not similarly so.

The next issue involves the Poundstone Amendment.

As I understand it, and I am not an attorney, Poundstone requires a vote of all people affected whenever land is to be annexed from one jurisdiction to another. We saw such an election when the land DIA now sits on was annexed from Aurora to Denver. If the county commissioners vote to terminate Lookout Mountain as our principal broadcast site, clearing a way for Golden to annex the land, it is likely you will have a Poundstone fight on your hands. I will certainly join any lawsuit filed. Not only that, I will insist that the vote includes all people affected, all people currently serviced by the radio and television stations who transmit from Lookout. That means I will ask that the vote include everybody from Castle Rock to Greeley to Ft Collins to Limon and everywhere in between.

As you can see, this may get very, very expensive for Golden to fight, and we haven't even discussed the potential court costs when major broadcasters with deep pockets sue for their economic losses. In this day of TABOR, that could make it very difficult for Golden to function.

I wonder if Golden's citizens are aware of these potential multi-million dollar costs? I wonder if they are aware of the potential dangers to their safety during a time of crisis?

Finally, I'd love to get hold of the campaign finance records of all Golden city council members to see if any campaigns were enriched by Comcast, the satellite companies, and/or any of their respective officers. I sincerely hope I'm wrong here, but something doesn't sound right. It has an Abramov-like feeling to it. I think this bears investigation.

Copies were sent to the Jeffco Commissioners, The Golden Transcript, Dusty Saunders of the Rocky Mountain News, and Joanne Ostrow of the Denver Post

AGZELA

08-06-06, 03:14 PM

AGZELA

08-06-06, 03:26 PM

A big thank you for all that sent letters to Karen and the rest of the City of Golden officials. I think we can make a difference here, BTW we need to send letters to the JeffCO commission.... let them here the truth.

Jim Congrove
commish1@jeffco.us
County Commissioner (District 1)
100 Jefferson County Parkway
Golden, CO 80419-5550
303-271-8525

J. Kevin McCasky
commish2@jeffco.us
County Commissioner (District 2)
100 Jefferson County Parkway
Golden, CO 80419-5550
303-271-8525

Dave Auburn
commish3@jeffco.us
County Commissioner (District 3)
100 Jefferson County Parkway
Golden, CO 80419-5550
303-271-8525

santellavision

08-06-06, 03:39 PM

From the insider scoop...

McCasky voted Yes on the last vote. Auburn & Congrove voted No. The latest 'dirt' is that Auburn is still a definite NO, McCasky is still a Yes, but Congrove is on-the-fence. He's the swing vote and the one we need to get him to vote our way.

gakon

08-06-06, 05:41 PM

Maybe I'm missing something here but if the City of Golden are so concerned with the preservation of their mountain backdrop for future generations then why are they littering their mountain backdrops with new homes?Because they're not that concerned. Those homes probably pay more taxes than the towers anyway. And with the towers gone, there will be more room for homes. I think we should start eminent domain proceedings to put a WalMart at the top of Lookout.

TotallyPreWired

08-06-06, 06:06 PM

The existing towers are a 'non-conforming use', established many years before anyone in planning had the ability to think to the future impacts. The area was pretty much devoid of populations of people. Now, planners are thinking ahead.
No, actually they are trying to change history.

'The area was pretty much devoid of populations of people.' Hmmm, speaks volumes doesn't it? So, it was the people that encroached on the towers, not vice versa. Hmmm...

And, now there's too much RF up there, falling towers and kids with 3 heads. Uh huh.

But the towers were there when they built the houses correct? Uh huh.

And, now you don't want a consolidation tower even though some of the existing towers would be removed? Uh huh.

And, all of a sudden there is an urgent need for 'open space'? Uh huh.

And, this 'open space' is not even within the incorporated area called Golden? Uh huh.

And, this 'open space' just happens to be in the same place where the proposed new tower would be built? Uh huh.

Hmmm. Let me think. :confused: Ok, so:

The people with the 3 headed kids, who build their homes after the towers were built, but are afraid that those towers might fall on them, don't want a new tower even though other towers would be removed, because the City of Golden needs 'open space' that is not even within their jurisdiction, and now the City of Golden is planning ahead?

Thanks for explaining. This sure clears things up for me.

Sometimes, as we know, the media skewes the facts, and in this case, Lake Cedar has the advantage of its ties to media!
Karen, I hate to break this to ya, but nothing is more skewed that the BS that you're peddling. And, taking advantage of those poor 3 headed kids? You should be ashamed!
....jc

adam1115

08-06-06, 08:26 PM

So wait, the towers on lookout mountain are poisoning people, giving people cancer, could fall down and kill people in a sparsely populated area, and the solution is to locate them on a building in DOWNTOWN DENVER around THOUSANDS of people living and working? Multiple antenna failure hits one house on lookout vs. 16th street mall? Huh. I think she just admitted that having the towers DOWNTOWN is SAFE, which means it's even SAFER on Lookout...

mrvideo

08-06-06, 09:27 PM

Come late October, it will be a year since I was in Denver on a business trip (thanks again Steve for the tour).

Here we are a year later and the same bullcrap is going on.

Un-fracking-believable!

zimdba

08-06-06, 09:40 PM

Watching the game tonight on Channel 9-1 KUSA. Pixellation, dropouts, losing focus - do I have to pray for perfect weather during the football season? Signal strength is between 77% and 79%. I tuned in to that stupid weather station for 30 seconds and didn't have any issues.

Unfortunately, this is on a new TV (Samsung LNS2611) with an older DirecTV (H10) receiver. I can't validate that this is happening on my other TV - so I can't blame it on reception just yet. I just don't have enough hours on this set.

Anyone else having problems tonight (other than the fact that the Raiders are playing)?

longrider

08-06-06, 09:44 PM

You are in Castle Rock, is your antenna on a rotator? I am watching KOAA 5.1 out of Colorado Springs with a signal in the 80s

ppasteur

08-06-06, 10:19 PM

Maybe I'm missing something here but if the City of Golden are so concerned with the preservation of their mountain backdrop for future generations then why are they littering their mountain backdrops with new homes? Seems like everytime I pass through Golden they've built more homes further up their mountain backdrops.

I wanted to ask Karen this.... Having worked a Rock Flats ..going back 5 years. later.. running back that way...Highway 93, watching the development....they obviously have a dual standard.....
One can't see anything to the west of golden...along all of the ridges..except huge houses...

I guess they are OK

Whatever is convenient

What else is new ????

santellavision

08-06-06, 10:24 PM

zimdba

08-06-06, 10:25 PM

I have a CM 3023 - no rotator. I also have a 100ft hill behind me that would preclude any reception from Colorado Springs. Or so I'm guessing. I haven't bothered to get up on the roof & point it south to see what I get.

Arvadaman

08-06-06, 10:33 PM

santellavision

08-06-06, 10:35 PM

Ooops, my bad, I swapped the names. Auburn is the swing vote, not Congrove, he's the solid no.

longrider

08-06-06, 10:45 PM

With a hill like that you are probably out of luck :( I guess I am just lucky being on top of a ridge. Dont have direct LOS either way but close enough that I can receive both cities just the Denver signals can be weak

ppasteur

08-06-06, 10:59 PM

You can't argue with anyone from Golden. They've all drunk the Kool-aid and will not listen or give any kind of logical response to facts. sCARE has convinced them, well actually many of them are members of sCARE. They're been brainwashed to think they really can get the existing towers removed and will get rich, if property values skyrocket!

I spent over an hour composing my letter to Karen... the entire time understanding that it was futile...

I guess that she figured that it was not worth talking to me about it, as she did not respond...other than
"interesting"

Maybe it was...maybe she heard me...

I doubt it...I really do...

kenglish

08-07-06, 08:02 AM

Come late October, it will be a year since I was in Denver on a business trip (thanks again Steve for the tour).

Here we are a year later and the same bullcrap is going on.

Un-fracking-believable!

Oh! This stuff has been going on for a loooooooottttt longer than that. I remember hearing stuff from a former Denver FCC guy, and that was at least 7 or 8 years ago.

Hey! Has anyone thought about building the transmitters on a huge balloon? They're talking about doing that for internet services.

Or, how about building a Church up there, and put the antennas on a really high "steeple"? They wouldn't interfere with something like that, would they (political implications)? ;)

oxothuk

08-07-06, 09:20 AM

Or, how about building a Church up there, and put the antennas on a really high "steeple"? They wouldn't interfere with something like that, would they (political implications)? ;)Well, in Boulder they sure would. The Boulder County Commissioners recently disapproved expansion plans for a local chuch, forcing a test case challenging law (RFRA?) passed by US Congress a couple years ago.

jcloudm

08-07-06, 09:31 AM

So wait, the towers on lookout mountain are poisoning people, giving people cancer, could fall down and kill people in a sparsely populated area,

I was in Seattle last week, and took this picture from the top of the space needle:
http://cloudman.smugmug.com/gallery/1746207/13/86428888/Large

With all those towers right in the middle of densely populated areas, sCARE must be shocked that any of the residents there are still alive.

RonAuger

08-07-06, 10:38 AM

longrider

08-07-06, 11:20 AM

I have heard that the one in Parker is 850KOA - the '50,000 watt blowtorch of the Rockies'. Maybe thats why the shoes I bought at Kohl's glow in the dark...

BobLikesHDTV

08-07-06, 11:48 AM

Really? You think that those companies are going to spend money just to keep the people who ONLY want OTA HD from getting it? Regardless of how many people actually use OTA, the broadcasters will still have to provide a full power signal, and eventually they will. I'm sure those records are available to the public - let us know what you find out.

I sure do.

Think about it. There are over 1 million people from Castle Rock to Ft Collins to Greeley to the Nebraska and Kansas borders. 20%+ of them get their TV OTA. Divide that into the average family size of 2.5, and you have 80,000 households worth of potential revenue out there, waiting to be plundered. Multiply 80,000 by the lowest cost packages, and we're talking big bucks.

Multiply the maximum contribution allowed by the number of city and county councillors, and you can buy a great deal of influence for very little money. Sounds like a good investment to me.

Fortunately in 2002 Coloradoans voted to eliminate direct contributions by corporations and unions to political campaigns. There are other ways of doing it, though, if they are enterprising enough.

The records are available. The question is are they at the Secty of State's office or at the Taj Mahal in Golden. I should know in a few days, as I have time to poke around.

BobLikesHDTV

08-07-06, 11:57 AM

I looked around to see when the JeffCo Board of Commissioners
terms expire. Looks like Auburn is up for reelection (or replacement)
this year. Maybe this is a good place to start.

Dist. 1 Jim Congrove (R) 1-09
Dist. 2 J. Kevin McCasky (R) 1-09
Dist. 3 Dave Auburn (R) 1-07

If he is a solid no, then he could be replaced if the Comissioners
are stalling. November is not that far away.

Bear in mind that even though the commissioners supposedly represent only one district, they are elected at-large. This means all registered voters in Jefferson County may vote to elect any one commissioner.

So regardless of where you live in Jefferson County, if you are registered, you are a voter in this year's commissioner election.

It is vital that this becomes a big issue in the commissioner election. As I wrote earlier, they're playing ostrich hoping this thing goes away. We have to promote the heck out of it at every appearance and debate by the candidates. Candidates include Dave Auburn - R, above, and Kathy Hartman - D. I can tell you that Kathy is not friendly to the tower. We can make somebody friendly if we push and push hard on this.

LXIX

08-07-06, 11:58 AM

BobLikesHDTV,

Whatever support that you need, I am happy to help. I will attend any events that you need me at (with wife approval of course). I am sick of sitting on my hands, and my letter writing campaigns have not made a dent in the problem.

-Matt

santellavision

08-07-06, 12:42 PM

We are thinking of having an open forum with both candidates, just like sCARE did before the last election. We can do our best to force their comitment to protect the county from terrorism and the danger of no OTA TV. Just like sCARE did the last time around.

BobLikesHDTV

08-07-06, 12:46 PM

My letter to her:

Dear Ms. Oxman:

Thank you for reading my correspondence.

You recently replied to a letter requesting support for locating the Front Range's future digital TV transmitter sites on Lookout Mountain. This is a position with which you do not agree. That letter and your reply were shared with the concerned members of an online forum. Your reply prompts my comments.

The following is the reply from Karen Oxman, City Councilor.

>>You are more than welcome to look at all of our campaign finance data! Please contact Sbrooks@ci.golden.co.us
and request whatever you would like! Campaign finance is an open record, and you, and everyone, are most welcome to have a look.

Karen :) <<<

(The smiley is her's. No kidding!)

I also had a response from Thomas Martinez with the Golden Transcript. He advises they will be running an in-depth piece regarding the tower. It may not be a bad idea to contact him, supporting the idea and suggesting they do so ASAP before the election, so voters know where the candidates stand on the issue.

tomm@milehighnews.com

santellavision

08-07-06, 01:06 PM

kenglish

08-07-06, 01:38 PM

santellavision

08-07-06, 01:50 PM

Interesting Ken, as they recently built a church right near my house on the Genesee side of Lookout Mt. They were totally restricted to the size/color/materials by JeffCo. Hmmm, maybe they didn't know of the rules.

oxothuk

08-07-06, 02:10 PM

As I recall, Congress passed a law forbidding any municipality from enforcing zoning laws on Churches.I don't think it goes quite that far, but yes that's the law which the Boulder County Commissionera are inviting a challenge to.

CEB II

08-07-06, 04:12 PM

I was in Seattle last week, and took this picture from the top of the space needle:
http://cloudman.smugmug.com/gallery/1746207/13/86428888/Large

With all those towers right in the middle of densely populated areas, sCARE must be shocked that any of the residents there are still alive.

Wow! I notice that those towers all seem to be on the higher terrain in the area. Is there something to be learned there? Ya think?

ADent

08-07-06, 08:38 PM

ppasteur

08-07-06, 09:08 PM

I got a reply to the email that I sent to all those folks in Golden. I thought everyone here might be interested. I find it to contain several misrepresntations of the facts. I just may have to point that out to them.

Here it is:

Thank you for your feedback. Golden Councilor Karen Oxman and Mayor Charles Baroch has asked that I forward you the letter below, which explains more about the City’s position on this issue. I am happy to provide you with additional information. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Sabrina Henderson
Communications Manager
City of Golden
911 10th St., Golden, CO 80401
shenderson@ci.golden.co.us
303-384-8132

Thank you for emailing me regarding the City of Golden’s attempts to acquire land on Lookout Mountain for Open Space.

The City and Jefferson County have had a long-standing and documented desire to return Lookout Mountain to its former glory as an Open Space park. Golden has been negotiating with multiple property owners on Lookout Mountain to purchase land for Open Space in order to preserve the mountain backdrop.

The citizens of Golden are strongly in favor of protecting our boundaries and mountain backdrop. In 2000, they authorized the city to spend $3 million specifically for the purchase of Open Space on the two table mountains, Lookout Mountain and Mount Zion. Through a cooperative effort with businesses and Jefferson County Open Space, large quantities of land in and near Golden have been preserved as open space.

But Golden has an obligation to the voters to spend the remaining $2 million in bond money reserved for Open Space purchases. The City believes the Lookout Mountain Property is the best use of those funds as it is the largest remaining parcel of mountain backdrop in the Golden valley and sits between two other large areas of designated Jefferson County Conservation Open Space.

Lake Cedar Group (a major media conglomerate comprised of Channels 4, 7, 9 and 20) is one of the property owners on Lookout Mountain. The City has offered to purchase 64-acres of land from LCG that currently has no broadcast towers on it, and the Jefferson County Commissioners have denied Lake Cedar Group’s request to rezone it for a supertower. Therefore, no tower can be built on that land. The City wants to protect the land from any development.

Through negotiations ongoing since September 2005, the City ultimately offered LCG $1.7 million for the property: $100,000 more than the appraised value. LCG refused to accept the City’s final offer, forcing the City to file a Petition in Condemnation (the start of eminent domain proceedings) to acquire the land for its best and highest use as Open Space.

The four towers LCG says it will take down in exchange for its new supertower are nonconforming to the county’s zoning regulations, and therefore cannot be upgraded to HDTV uses. As a result, these four towers will have to be removed in the next few years as their analog signals become antiquated. LCG is keeping Coloradans from getting HDTV by choosing not to follow the lead of its sister stations and building its tower on an already approved site in a less densely populated area on Squaw Mountain.

We hope you will take more time to learn about the City’s position on this issue as we believe our position is in the best interest of both the citizens of Golden and the people of Colorado.

Thank you for your input.
Sincerely,
Charles Baroch, Mayor

santellavision

08-07-06, 09:17 PM

TotallyPreWired

08-07-06, 09:34 PM

Sabrina Henderson
Communications Manager
City of Golden
911 10th St., Golden, CO 80401
shenderson@ci.golden.co.us
303-384-8132
Shouldn't that be Minister of Information?

The City and Jefferson County have had a long-standing and documented desire to return Lookout Mountain to its former glory as an Open Space park. Golden has been negotiating with multiple property owners on Lookout Mountain to purchase land for Open Space in order to preserve the mountain backdrop.
For exactly how long?

Through negotiations ongoing since September 2005, the City ultimately offered LCG $1.7 million for the property: $100,000 more than the appraised value. LCG refused to accept the City’s final offer, forcing the City to file a Petition in Condemnation (the start of eminent domain proceedings) to acquire the land for its best and highest use as Open Space.
A wopping 6.25% more? Come on you can do better than that! This is Golden we're talking about!

The four towers LCG says it will take down in exchange for its new supertower are nonconforming to the county’s zoning regulations, and therefore cannot be upgraded to HDTV uses. As a result, these four towers will have to be removed in the next few years as their analog signals become antiquated.
I wouldn't place my bets just yet.

LCG is keeping Coloradans from getting HDTV by choosing not to follow the lead of its sister stations and building its tower on an already approved site in a less densely populated area on Squaw Mountain.
I think this is called 'spin'.

We hope you will take more time to learn about the City’s position on this issue as we believe our position is in the best interest of both the citizens of Golden and the people of Colorado.
Maybe Golden, but not the people of Colorado.
....jc

sunshinedawg

08-07-06, 10:00 PM

This is great watching sd crap on 6-1 again. KRMA is asleep at the wheel again. As of 8pm, they still haven't switched to the digital PBS feed.

kucharsk

08-08-06, 02:56 AM

But Golden has an obligation to the voters to spend the remaining $2 million in bond money reserved for Open Space purchases.Isn't this just like government? They have to spend the money. Of course. They couldn't keep it in the bank for future Open Space purchases, no. They have to spend it now.

The four towers LCG says it will take down in exchange for its new supertower are nonconforming to the county’s zoning regulations, and therefore cannot be upgraded to HDTV uses. As a result, these four towers will have to be removed in the next few years as their analog signals become antiquated. LCG is keeping Coloradans from getting HDTV by choosing not to follow the lead of its sister stations and building its tower on an already approved site in a less densely populated area on Squaw Mountain.

Once again, fantasy land. TV is TV. The towers are nonconforming for television, and when analog television ends in 2009, digital will be television. Case closed, sorry. Reference the previous arguments about HD Radio broadcasts on other "non conforming" towers in the area.

BTW, which sister stations would those be on Squaw? I don't see any full power ATSC stations there, do you? Then there's that little problem of not being able to reach a hefty proportion of their service area. Hell, let's just say they should put their transmitters on Pike's Peak instead; the number of Denver-area viewers able to receive their signal would end up being largely the same…

kenglish

08-08-06, 07:34 AM

OK, here's a topic to discuss. (My wife came up with this after her co-workers asked her about seeing me in the LCG TV spot)

Why can't Denver be the first market in the country not to provide an OTA signal, just Sat, Cable and in the future, HD streaming? It kinda' hit me as a surprise question. She has some very smart and inquisitive employees!

What if Denver was the first TV market to not be OTA?

Then, Denver would likely be the first market to have NO local television.

Even if they could negotiate something with the satellite and Cable companies, they probably would not be able to continue as network affiliates ("must carry" requires you to be licensed and on the air). And, of course, somebody else would gobble up those free channels and put something on them....religion, shopping, ethnic, weather, etc.

kenglish

08-08-06, 07:39 AM

Oh! Forgot one thing......

Everyone would be in a "white area" and would qualify for a Satellite Waiver, so no one would be watching them anyway :rolleyes: .

Wouldn't be very good for business, would it?

Jeremy Tebo

08-08-06, 10:34 AM

Squidboy, do you still have your HD receiver? I sent you a PM a few days ago, but didn't hear back. Thanks!

oxothuk

08-08-06, 01:25 PM

This is great watching sd crap on 6-1 again. KRMA is asleep at the wheel again. As of 8pm, they still haven't switched to the digital PBS feed.I noticed the same thing. They've been very unreliable ever since they started this "Create" bs back in January.

mrvideo

08-08-06, 01:45 PM

I noticed the same thing. They've been very unreliable ever since they started this "Create" bs back in January.

At least they got the "Create" name right. All that channel has done is do nothing but "create" problems. :)

In my market, we don't have the problem of the main channel being switched between SD upconvert and true HD. 21.1 is HD, 21.2 is the local PBS SD and 21.3 is that dumb Create. So, what's the problem? Bit starvation. It was bad enough when it was just 21.1 and 21.2, but with the addition of 21.3, the HD stream gets bit starved and loves to macroblock extremely easy.

At least you should have a lot less macroblocking, once you get to see the HD video. Can't say that is true here.

BobLikesHDTV

08-08-06, 02:04 PM

Just drive C-470 past Highlands Ranch. Just east of the University exit and North of C-470 is a set of 5 towers. I never did bother to look up what they are for. And there is a giant one here in the center of Parker. I'll have to look that one up too.

I think that's 1430 AM KEZW's transmitter. When you see an antenna farm like that, it usually is configured to direct an AM signal in a specific direction to prevent interference with another station's signal on the same frequency.

Unlike an FM/UHF/VHF signal which will capture a frequency if it is the strongest in a specific geographical location, AM signals will interfere with one another. Broadcasters have to play games with direction, power and actual location on the dial to prevent it. These requirements are set by the FCC.

BobLikesHDTV

08-08-06, 02:10 PM

As I recall, Congress passed a law forbidding any municipality from enforcing zoning laws on Churches. It had something to do with the Boston (MA) LDS Temple.

And, they just made allowances for a new temple in Draper, Utah. No limits on the height of the steeple/spire (or, antennas :) ).

Yup. First Amendment is pretty clear on the subject.

Of course if the structure has a fire or other problem caused or complicated by the non-code design, the municipality has no obligation to do anything about it. They can let it burn, fall down, etc.

I suppose we could start the First Church of the Holy HDTV Tower.

Can I get an Amen!

:p

BobLikesHDTV

08-08-06, 02:16 PM

For anybody who has Don Perez's ear over at KUSA, I have a suggestion.

Move WeatherPlus over to channel 20 as a sub-channel and go full-HDTV with channel 9-1.

I don't think the new TV network is going to have much if any HD programming for quite some time, so it shouldn't compromise the quality at 20.

I must also complement him and his techs on how good 20's DT image looks now. Shows like reruns of "That 70's Show" just pop. The colors are awesome.

And I wouldn't mind them bidding on Avs, Rockies and Nuggets game broadcasts for 20, in full HD. I think Altitude is sufficiently on the ropes enough financially to consider it.

BobLikesHDTV

08-08-06, 02:33 PM

This is great watching sd crap on 6-1 again. KRMA is asleep at the wheel again. As of 8pm, they still haven't switched to the digital PBS feed.

The contact at KRMA is Tom Daily (or Dailey) in engineering support.

The main number is 303-892-6666. I'm trying to get an email address, too.

I'm curious if KRMA makes the switch from Create-TV to PBS-Digital by computer or a person physically doing something each night?

BobLikesHDTV

08-08-06, 02:37 PM

Over the last few days I've moved from watching this to being an activist.

The more I think about this, the more I think in addition to forming a PAC, we need to involve press at the two main papers, Dusty Saunders and Joanne Ostrow, in this struggle to bring DT up to a world-class standard here in Denver.

I can see where Ostrow's eyes may glaze over a bit, but I think Saunders would be interested. He's exhibited some tech savvy in his columns.

The bottom line is 200,000+ people along the Front Range still get TV over-the-air. I'm sure not even a small fraction have digital TVs yet; however, all will need to make the very expensive change soon enough. Granted it is a new technology and the bugs need working out. But with only 2.5 years to go in the conversion, this can no longer be treated as experimental or an afterthought. It is the future of OTA TV, whether anybody wants it or not. Broadcasters and government need to get it right or get out of the way and find somebody who can.

John Boy

08-08-06, 02:57 PM

I bought a HD-A1 from Best Buy with a 12% off coupon I found online. It was about the same price as amazon.com is currently. Froogle has places with cheaper prices, but I wanted an easy return if it had problems.

Before buying I called probably ten local Walmarts asking them to check on the HD-D1 because I thought it had a better look. None had the player and the only person that seemed to have a clue thought it was amusing I'd even ask. The local Walmarts don't seem to be carrying the format right now. The last time I was in the store on Hampden they had a few titles for $20 to $25.

I bought an HD=A1 from BB in Ft. Collins Used the same 12% discount coupon for the July 4 weekend. They only had one. It was an open box item. I checked it out and the batteries and the cords etc were still in the orginal packets. So I offered to take it off their hands for another $60.00 off. They went for it. :) So less the $390.00 was really good. BTW the up-conversion for SD discs is great. The HD DVD's are stunning on my 50" plasma.

John Boy

08-08-06, 03:24 PM

I sure do.

Think about it. There are over 1 million people from Castle Rock to Ft Collins to Greeley to the Nebraska and Kansas borders. 20%+ of them get their TV OTA. Divide that into the average family size of 2.5, and you have 80,000 households worth of potential revenue out there, waiting to be plundered. Multiply 80,000 by the lowest cost packages, and we're talking big bucks.

Multiply the maximum contribution allowed by the number of city and county councillors, and you can buy a great deal of influence for very little money. Sounds like a good investment to me.

Fortunately in 2002 Coloradoans voted to eliminate direct contributions by corporations and unions to political campaigns. There are other ways of doing it, though, if they are enterprising enough.

The records are available. The question is are they at the Secty of State's office or at the Taj Mahal in Golden. I should know in a few days, as I have time to poke around.

I will be able to get OTA HD if this tower goes in.?? I live in Ft. Collins and get nothing now.

John Boy

08-08-06, 03:28 PM

jpco

08-08-06, 03:34 PM

What ever happened to the Rockies in HD that FSN has been promoting for the last month? I have not see a broadcast yet with Comcast in HD. I don't subscribe to MLB.

They've been select home games and have only been on DirecTV. I e-mailed Comcast twice. Once I got a canned response. The second time I got none.

Lawood

08-08-06, 04:35 PM

Is anyone else seeing a bunch of flashing white dashes across the top of the screen when watching vertain programs on KUSA-DT 9-1 via OTA? Its especially noticeable during Treasure Hunters. Doesn't happen with any other channel.
Yes. All the time. Especially bad on all news casts.

BobLikesHDTV

08-08-06, 04:50 PM

I will be able to get OTA HD if this tower goes in.?? I live in Ft. Collins and get nothing now.

As I understand it if you can get the SD stations broadcasting from Lookout Mountain now, yes.

Lawood

08-08-06, 04:50 PM

I just wrote Tom a letter and gave him some facts on the tower. I especially pointed out the 'same-service' issue and how nobody has really researched this and how it will mostly likely be the center-point of the controversy in 2009.

Same-service only becomes an issue if the new tower is denied. Right now there main objective is to make sure LCG's new proposed tower is turned down. If this should happen they will reload and and go full speed after the 'same-service' issue.

BobLikesHDTV

08-08-06, 04:56 PM

What ever happened to the Rockies in HD that FSN has been promoting for the last month? I have not see a broadcast yet with Comcast in HD. I don't subscribe to MLB.

Fox has created regional HD channels of late. The Rockies games have been on that one. It is not carried on Comcrash due to lack of bandwidth. Comcrash keeps complaining about a lack of bandwidth. They have plenty of it for Internet and VOIP services, but not TV.

As a matter of fact, to add TNT-HD last week, they removed INHD2.

The truth is they can only fit so much data into the pipe (fiber optic cable) without more compression. The apparent solution is they are building MPEG 4 compression technology into the new generation of set-top boxes and DVRs, supposedly available early next year. At least that's what they announced at CES in Las Vegas this past January. I've seen no word about these boxes since, and I've looked.

My experience with the Crash is don't hold your breath!

MRinDenver

08-08-06, 05:28 PM

.... BTW the up-conversion for SD discs is great. The HD DVD's are stunning on my 50" plasma.

Please don't tell me that. I am finally out of debt for my systems. Please tell me the machine is clunky and the discs are iffy.

Audiguy3

08-08-06, 06:16 PM

Please don't tell me that. I am finally out of debt for my systems. Please tell me the machine is clunky and the discs are iffy.
wait for the Sony Blue rays - they are truely stunning

Reggie

JMartinko

08-08-06, 06:32 PM

dr_mal

08-08-06, 06:41 PM

For anybody who has Don Perez's ear over at KUSA, I have a suggestion.

Move WeatherPlus over to channel 20 as a sub-channel and go full-HDTV with channel 9-1.
I would love to see this happen.
I don't think the new TV network is going to have much if any HD programming for quite some time, so it shouldn't compromise the quality at 20.
Actually, MyNetworkTV will be all HD - for the 2 hours a day of programming MNTV provides.
And I wouldn't mind them bidding on Avs, Rockies and Nuggets game broadcasts for 20, in full HD. I think Altitude is sufficiently on the ropes enough financially to consider it.
That would truly rock. Last time I mentioned it to Altitude (back when 20 was still independently owned) they mentioned concern that they wouldn't be able to demand the money they apparently get from cable/sat providers if people had the option of getting the channel for free. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask again, though.

dr_mal

08-08-06, 06:48 PM

Please don't tell me that. I am finally out of debt for my systems. Please tell me the machine is clunky and the discs are iffy.
The machine may be a little clunky - 1st generation, after all - but once you get a movie started, it looks and sounds amazing. Think the best OTA you've ever seen without any macroblocking/motion blur.

wait for the Sony Blue rays - they are truely stunning
Must. Stay. On. Topic. Must. Stay. On. Topic.

Ah, crap. Here I go:

First reviews of the same title on HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray - HD-DVD wins. Less cropping, better colour, half the price for the playback device ;)

We'll see once Sony releases their player how many of those issues are with the current Samsung player and how many are with the obsolete MPEG-2 codec BluRay uses.

After Sony's rootkit fiasco, no way I'm trusting them with my future electronic purchases.

Audiguy3

08-08-06, 08:15 PM

After Sony's rootkit fiasco, no way I'm trusting them with my future electronic purchases.
[/OT]

Different division - yeah that was stupid. but not on topic either :)

Arvadaman

08-08-06, 08:47 PM

jpco

08-08-06, 09:25 PM

Fox has created regional HD channels of late. The Rockies games have been on that one. It is not carried on Comcrash due to lack of bandwidth. Comcrash keeps complaining about a lack of bandwidth. They have plenty of it for Internet and VOIP services, but not TV.

As a matter of fact, to add TNT-HD last week, they removed INHD2.

The truth is they can only fit so much data into the pipe (fiber optic cable) without more compression. The apparent solution is they are building MPEG 4 compression technology into the new generation of set-top boxes and DVRs, supposedly available early next year. At least that's what they announced at CES in Las Vegas this past January. I've seen no word about these boxes since, and I've looked.

My experience with the Crash is don't hold your breath!

This is OT for this thread, but did you hear from Comcast that they didn't carry the games because of bandwidth? As for INHD 2, from what I read here, they are phasing that channel out nationally.

Scott Pro

08-08-06, 09:52 PM

I will be able to get OTA HD if this tower goes in.?? I live in Ft. Collins and get nothing now.
John Boy, if you can, point your antenna east towards Pierce, and see if you can get Fox HD (KFCT, ch 21).

gakon

08-08-06, 10:21 PM

So did KTVD have Veronica Mars on in HD tonight? I've seen a few posts about how good that channel looks, but it looks no different on Comcast than it did before. I want to see if Comcast is passing the real DT signal or not.

pkeegan

08-08-06, 10:39 PM

milehighmike

08-08-06, 11:28 PM

I am also seeing the white dashes across the top of the screen on KUSA, especially on the local newscasts. In addition, KTVD still incorrectly maps to 19-1 on the two receivers that I have that can decode the PSIP and my two Accurians and VIP211 still can't decode it.

I've emailed Don Perez twice on these two issues. After the first email, he replied within a couple of days, and both "issues" were resolved. Then, apparently, someone at KUSA decided to screw around and we're back to square one. I emailed him the second time after the issues reappeared and did not receive a reply.

I'm going to email Don Perez again. For those interested, his email is don.perez@9news.com.

HDJello

08-09-06, 12:13 AM

BobLikesHDTV

08-09-06, 10:38 AM

This is OT for this thread, but did you hear from Comcast that they didn't carry the games because of bandwidth? As for INHD 2, from what I read here, they are phasing that channel out nationally.

Glad to see we have a topic monitor here. Bravo! Well done! That'll teach me.

Actually, I responded to somebody else.

Bandwidth seems to be their usual answer. But no, they sent a form email that said something about "customer demand". My info comes from conversations with techs over the last year or so. They are the people who know, not the CSRs. Last night I noticed a problem with the 6412 Phase II (when I hit the reverse button, I couldn't then hit play and have the thing actually play... the image just sorta sat there). I asked her about the new Panasonic box. She said she had no new information. So, either she's full'a beans or they're just not giving their CSRs any new information. The truth is I'd rather they take their time with the Panasonic and get it right. We don't want another Magnavox fiasco.

Where did you see that about INHD2? Frankly if I were Comcast, I'd scrap the whole INHD concept. It was a way to get even with Mark Cuban's HDnet. It bombed. I mean how bad can a network be when it shows one-star movies from the 1960s, years-old tennis matches, and HIGH SCHOOL basketball games from Kansas?

dr_mal

08-09-06, 12:17 PM

Glad to see we have a topic monitor here. Bravo! Well done! That'll teach me.

Actually, I responded to somebody else.
I dunno Bob, call me crazy, but if you're looking for people here to help you out with your PAC, you might want to dial the attitude down a little.

ktmglen

08-09-06, 12:50 PM

I asked her about the new Panasonic box.

A panasonic settop box? Do you have a link to a press release or more info?

-Glen

Audiguy3

08-09-06, 12:52 PM

I will be able to get OTA HD if this tower goes in.?? I live in Ft. Collins and get nothing now.
John,

we have a forum for Northern Co:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=199726&page=36&pp=20

You can see that some of us in FTC get reception on some channels.

Reggie

milehighmike

08-09-06, 12:55 PM

Here's the reply I received from KUSA's Don Perez this AM regarding the white dashes on KUSA's video and KTVD's PSIP problems:

Thank you for your note. We are having encoder and PSIP issues with
hardware/software. The manufacture of the encoder is flying someone in
today with a loaner unit and will swap it out. There is a hard drive
issue with the PSIP unit. We are waiting on replacement parts to
deliver. We had changed the 19. information at one point, but I will
check into this. The white dashes at the top of the screen are VITC
(vertical interval time code) that is generated by various broadcast
type systems to aid in the editing process. It is part of the active
video area and with certain TV sets it might be seen. We will look at
this further and see if there is a reasonable solution. Thanks

milehighmike

08-09-06, 05:22 PM

Don Perez followed-up with another email response to me this afternoon:

As I gave this more thought, you might also be seeing close captioning
data. This is data at the top of the video image. Although, this would
be constant through the newscast... thanks

MRinDenver

08-09-06, 06:20 PM

[QUOTE=dr_mal]The machine may be a little clunky - 1st generation, after all - but once you get a movie started, it looks and sounds amazing. Think the best OTA you've ever seen without any macroblocking/motion blur.

Topic Smopic

Personally, I am going to wait until the units are flawless, $299, set up is plug and play, and the discs are $9.99 at Wal-Mart.

Or maybe until Christmas.

santellavision

08-09-06, 07:50 PM

jpco

08-09-06, 07:59 PM

Glad to see we have a topic monitor here. Bravo! Well done! That'll teach me.

Actually, I responded to somebody else.

I wasn't mentioning the OT to chide or teach you. I was doing it trying to show some etiquette to other members while asking one more OT question. Because we have some similar concerns, I've tried to discuss some of this with you in this and other threads, but you are quite over the top in how you perceive (hate, ridicule) Comcast, and you sometimes treat other posters to less than kind comments. Sorry you are so miserable with your choice of television provider. Good day.

DennisMileHi

08-09-06, 08:48 PM

I sent Don Perez the following email describing what I see on my two HD systems:

Hi Don:

A little more input on the picture issues with KUSA.

On my home theater, I have zero overscan. What I now see is about 3% of the top of the screen is blank... your picture starts below that black area. And, for SD video transmissions over the digital HD channel, that black space is about half of that. On your newscast, I have noticed on the left side of the top of the screen, 7 white dashes followed by a longer dash, that never change. You do NOT see these dashes when you are using your live floor cameras. This set of dashes is below the black empty space. I have noticed before some moving dashes on some SD broadcasts which I always assumed was the CC line and was visible due to no overscan.

Anyway, the 3% blank line and non-moving white dashes are relatively new. And I never see any of this on KMGH or KCNC or KRMA. The screen is always filled full up when there is an HD picture. I think the moving dashes do appear on other channels when SD is being shown, but I really can't remember right now.

Now on my 38" RCA television upstairs, there is apparantly enough overscan that I don't see any of this stuff.

Hope this helps.

His reply:

Thank you. This is helpful.

We will see what he does to correct things.

milehighmike

08-10-06, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by DennisMileHi:

We will see what he does to correct things.

I think Don Perez will work on this. He did "fix" KTVD today, at least for me. I can now receive it on all of my receivers.

MRinDenver

08-10-06, 11:15 AM

MR,

I bought one and am super happy with it. PQ is superb, but the sound is even better!. (And that's coming from a Denon 5900!) My thought is use it now until the combo Blu-Ray/HD-DVD players come out and then just sell this unit. They'll still be hot for a while.

I was able to hold out for a universal SACD/DVD-A player (Denon 2900) so maybe I can wait for t he combo unit. Maybe.

But my wife wouldn't be that I will wait.

BobLikesHDTV

08-10-06, 11:28 AM

I dunno Bob, call me crazy, but if you're looking for people here to help you out with your PAC, you might want to dial the attitude down a little.

I dunno, Mal. I have Comcast, so I get the channels no matter what. Also, with my little Zenith set-top antenna, I get all the local DT channels. For me, Lookout is more about the politics of it and how a small band of people want to make policy for a million plus others.

It's you guys, on the other hand, who seem to need the tower on Lookout. I'm merely suggesting a tried-and-true method in politics, offering to help you get it going. I'm sure not going to start it without a concensus for doing it. I don't see a consensus, do you?

You can all keep complaining or actually do something about this, like attending the event at 11 AM at the Clement Center, today, for all of the Democratic candidates.

My bet is people will keep complaining.

I'm thinking maybe people on forums should dial down the "off-topic" stuff a bit, be more kind and tolerant of the stray, tangential comment, and simply try to learn from and relate to others? Fair enough?

So I apologize for being off-topic, in response to somebody else. I take the sins of all forumdom throughout the Internet universe on my shoulders and ask that you point the way to my place of execution.

BobLikesHDTV

08-10-06, 11:36 AM

In a follow-up with Tom Daily, technical manager at KRMA (Channel 6 & 6.1), the process for switching back-and-forth from Create to PBS-DT is manual. The person in charge of making the switch does miss it at times, and he apologizes for it. He advises they are working to automate the process, and it should be in place in October.

pkeegan

08-10-06, 01:57 PM

Last night I couldn't pick up KRMA HD OTA even though I had a strong signal.

UHForever

08-10-06, 05:37 PM

Found out that the 'hit or miss' HD UPN on KTVD-DT the last few weeks may finally be more 'hit'. They had an equipment problem that caused the video to break up every time they switched to HD that they have finally isolated and (hopefully) repaired. Have not seen 'Veronica Mars' in HD (for more than a few minutes anyway) in 3 weeks, so lets hope this is indeed true. We'll see if "Everybody Hates Chris" is in HD tonight.

Iwanthd

08-11-06, 08:31 AM

I sent the following email to Don Perez this morning:

Hello Don,

I have a DirecTv HR10-250 and live in Castle Rock. A recent scan of OTA channels has added 19-1 and 20-1 to my guide. The frequency for KTVD shows up as 19-3 on my signal meter and is very unstable, bouncing between 25 and 60. The signal meter shows that the signal is being acquired but I get no sound or picture. I am able to receive the rest of the Republic Plaza stations with signal strengths between 50 and 80 (including KUSA in the 80’s!!) and no problem locking on their signals (occasional problem with KCNC break-ups).

I know you are working on this, but I thought it might be helpful if you had another data point.

On another topic, do you think the Rockies broadcasts on KTVD will show up in HD this year?

I'll report back if I get a response.

pkeegan

08-11-06, 08:49 AM

Last night I couldn't pick up KRMA HD OTA even though I had a strong signal.

I was able to view their SD broadcast yesterday but then in the evening I couldn't get a picture. Just like the day before. Prior to Wednesday I have had no issues with receiving KRMA.

Scott Pro

08-11-06, 06:12 PM

A few tidbits: When the Broncos play on CBS, most but not all games will be in HD (they just weren't sure yet). Their 3 preseason games are all SD.
There are 2 NFL Network Bronco games. Both will be simulcast by FOX: The 3rd preseason game is SD; the Thanksgiving game with KC will be HD.
Sunday Night (NBC) and Monday Night (ESPN) games are HD.

adam1115

08-11-06, 10:14 PM

Their 3 preseason games are all SD.

:rolleyes:

adam1115

08-11-06, 10:36 PM

milehighmike

08-11-06, 10:57 PM

or

3) They would flash cut to digital on Lookout and shutoff rp.

santellavision

08-12-06, 12:32 AM

4) And then go to court for the next 10 years fighting the JeffCo cease & desist order!

milehighmike

08-12-06, 01:30 AM

It looks like the PSIP for KTVD has been fixed as I've been able to view it for the last couple of days. Keeping my fingers crossed. I also watched 9NEWS at 10:00 tonight and did not see any white dashes at the top of the screen so it looks like that may be fixed also. I think those of us who sent emails to Don Perez at KUSA about these problems showed how responsive he was. If I don't see any posts over the weekend contrary to the above, I plan to drop him an email on Monday thanking him for quickly resolving these problems.

Symbios

08-12-06, 02:39 AM

My Humax box still can't see KTVD. It could be a problem on my end I suppose. But I don't think it is, because my old Samsung box can see it, it gives me a "weak Signal" message when I tune to it, but at least it can see it!

Mgibsoj

08-12-06, 06:09 AM

I keep reading (here) that if Golden is successful, there would be NO OTA in Denver. (IE if they won, and somehow prevented the switchover in 2009)

Seems like either:

1) FCC would grant them an extension on cutting off analog

or

2) They would shutoff analog on Lookout but continue to broadcast from rp.

If the first possibility included a hefty (daily) fine for the stations failing to obey the law, then the LCG would be able to legally pass that on to SCARE and Golden in the form of a law suit for damages. If the FCC would think this through, this would be the end-all of the delay in Denver. More free-be extensions would likely go on seemingly endlessly.

The second possibility would probably hurt their ad revenue enough (due to the considerable decrease in OTA viewers) that those damages could be passed on to SCARE and Golden as well. The problem that would arise though, would be the loss of their Lookout location permanently, something I dont' think the stations want to have happen.

IMO, I don't see the stations sticking their necks out and making the transition anyway resulting on being on the defense for many years to come in court either.

TheBert

08-12-06, 06:44 AM

Timwit

08-12-06, 02:04 PM

:D A shameless plug for a new Denver HD locals thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=709744

Symbios

08-12-06, 02:18 PM

Hey, that's a good idea, Tim. Why hasn't anyone thought of creating such a thread before?

donyoop

08-12-06, 03:32 PM

4) And then go to court for the next 10 years fighting the JeffCo cease & desist order!

We have a winner.

IMO, I don't see the stations sticking their necks out and making the transition anyway resulting on being on the defense for many years to come in court either.

Obeying federal law isn't exactly sticking their necks out. Actually, if the stations kept their analog frequencies and transmitted digital over them just like the conversion of the radio stations to HD radio, there will be no transition (I mean improvement) in the actual RF and RF situation on Lookout. Hence the legal, non-conforming status continues.

Don

Iwanthd

08-12-06, 04:35 PM

RonAuger

08-12-06, 07:34 PM

Rockies ARE on right now on D* ch 95 in HD. I guess since it's a FSRM broadcast in HD, it's not blacked out for us. And you don't need an MPEG4 box either.

JMartinko

08-12-06, 07:49 PM

I noticed that the Rockies v Cubs game is on the D* guide on channel 95 tonight at 5:30. I believe that this broadcast can only be received by those that have the new MPEG-4 equipment, but it might be worth a drive-by if you're a fan. The game shows up as being broadcast by Fox Sports Rocky Mtn. HD, so we may not be blacked out.
I think that 95 is the national MPEG2 HD feed, but who knows these days. Last night the game was on 96 which is definitely the local MPEG4 feed and was so full of macroblocking and picture freezes that it was unwatchable. I sure hope D* gets their act together before hockey season. Maybe they switched to 95 tonight because the transponder driving 96 was so bad. Maybe someone without the MPEG4 upgrade can let us know.

TotallyPreWired

08-12-06, 08:21 PM

Rockies ARE on right now on D* ch 95 in HD. I guess since it's a FSRM broadcast in HD, it's not blacked out for us. And you don't need an MPEG4 box either.
Here too. This morning they had an NFL network game on this channel(HD too).

I think that 95 is the national MPEG2 HD feed, but who knows these days. Last night the game was on 96 which is definitely the local MPEG4 feed and was so full of macroblocking and picture freezes that it was unwatchable. I sure hope D* gets their act together before hockey season. Maybe they switched to 95 tonight because the transponder driving 96 was so bad. Maybe someone without the MPEG4 upgrade can let us know.
I've been trying to figure this out, but for college football. :o Looking at the schedules, only 2 FSN HD games are on right now: Colorado & Pittsburg. And these are being shown only in their FSN markets. So, as far as I can tell, these are not national games.

Now when football arrives, many FSN's broadcast the same game. So, I'm hoping that some of these('national') games are broadcast in HD on D*(MPEG2). I'm an MPEG2 person, so MPEG2 broadcasts are my only hope.
....jc

Mgibsoj

08-12-06, 08:24 PM

Obeying federal law isn't exactly sticking their necks out. Actually, if the stations kept their analog frequencies and transmitted digital over them just like the conversion of the radio stations to HD radio, there will be no transition (I mean improvement) in the actual RF and RF situation on Lookout. Hence the legal, non-conforming status continues.

Don

Local 'law' overrides national law these days. I don't believe that simply making the transition on 2/17/09 and pointing to the federal law would exempt them from further litigation. To make that kind of a move would put them on the defense, not an enviable position to be in. That is my definition of "sticking their collective necks out". Feel free to disagree, but that is my opinion. If they don't make the transition, they continue to play the 'poor lil 'ol me' card as they have done so well and successfully in the past, and pass on the consequences to the responsible parties (which probably would also include Jeffco).
Also - FM radio hasn't transistioned to HD, my car FM radio still works fine. Another feature has been added to the analog signal, that's all.

Being outside of the range of most of the rp stations, I would like to see the transition happen as much as anyone, I just can't forsee it happening that way though. Maybe my years of disappointment has skewed my optimism, if there is any left. I can't discount that possibility, but that has been the overriding theme in the Denver DTV scene for a long, long time and I have seen nothing that would convince me that it will change, especially from the LCG. My lesson learned: if any expectations are placed with the FCC in favor of the Denver DTV market, it will result in disappointment. YMMV

TotallyPreWired

08-12-06, 10:13 PM

Local 'law' overrides national law these days. I don't believe that simply making the transition on 2/17/09 and pointing to the federal law would exempt them from further litigation. To make that kind of a move would put them on the defense, not an enviable position to be in. That is my definition of "sticking their collective necks out".
I agree. If anything sCARE has the advantage right now.
A small group of fairly smart people forms to increase their property values and possibly improve the 'scenery'. They put the spin to work: RF levels, cancer, 3 headed kids, towers falling. All the while hiding their true objectives. They get the city of Golden(under the table) to buy in to their goals. Spin, spin spin. Let's call it 'Wag The Towers'. They are getting the word out that the towers are evil. The good guys(LCG), for the most part, sit on their hands. sCARE has all the motive and momentum. While LCG has the power to reach millions with their story, they act paralyzed. Just like our government, the decision is left to a few, instead of the people. So sCARE now only needs to convince 2 people that the towers are bad.
sCARE has done well for their cause. LCG with all of their clout, on the other hand, is backed into a corner.

It really makes you wonder what LCG's goals really are...

kenglish

08-13-06, 09:30 AM

If the first possibility included a hefty (daily) fine for the stations failing to obey the law, then the LCG would be able to legally pass that on to SCARE and Golden in the form of a law suit for damages. If the FCC would think this through, this would be the end-all of the delay in Denver. More free-be extensions would likely go on seemingly endlessly.

The second possibility would probably hurt their ad revenue enough (due to the considerable decrease in OTA viewers) that those damages could be passed on to SCARE and Golden as well. The problem that would arise though, would be the loss of their Lookout location permanently, something I dont' think the stations want to have happen.

IMO, I don't see the stations sticking their necks out and making the transition anyway resulting on being on the defense for many years to come in court either.

Since we all know how slowly the wheels of justice turn, I don't think this would work. The stations would be paying fines, losing money, laying off staff, cutting out programming, letting equipment fail instead of fixing it, etc, while waiting ten years or so for a lawsuit to drag through the Courts. They'd be out of business before they collected their half of the money (and the lawyers, the other half).

donyoop

08-13-06, 04:41 PM

Local 'law' overrides national law these days... Feel free to disagree, but that is my opinion.

Also - FM radio hasn't transistioned to HD, my car FM radio still works fine. Another feature has been added to the analog signal, that's all...

What is the local law you are referring to that the stations would be violating if they convert to digital in 2009? It currently doesn't exist. The Lookout site is legal, non-conforming. Also, I can't believe that Congress will make an exception for Denver to remain analog in the non-election year of 2009. I believe that the Supreme Court would hear the case before the stations would shut down. I can just see the headlines in September 2009: " Jeffco pulls the plug on TV stations the night before Broncos opener". Now that would upset a few people.

As far as the HD FM, that is exactly my point. In 2009, another feature will be added to the existing analog RF signal, that's all...

Don

Mgibsoj

08-13-06, 06:05 PM

What is the local law you are referring to that the stations would be violating if they convert to digital in 2009? It currently doesn't exist. The Lookout site is legal, non-conforming. Also, I can't believe that Congress will make an exception for Denver to remain analog in the non-election year of 2009. I believe that the Supreme Court would hear the case before the stations would shut down. I can just see the headlines in September 2009: " Jeffco pulls the plug on TV stations the night before Broncos opener". Now that would upset a few people.

As far as the HD FM, that is exactly my point. In 2009, another feature will be added to the existing analog RF signal, that's all...

Don

Don - it sounds like you are inclined towards "same service" not being an issue. I posted a while back on my views of that - not that it will make any difference. I guess we'll know in 2 1/2 years the outcome - fairly shortly, all in all.

bkleven

08-13-06, 08:38 PM

Question: What is everyone's opinion of KUSA's HD NFL broadcasts?

I have comcast in Longmont, but I'm curious what the OTA folks have to say... Basically, it looks like they are compressing the ever-lovin' crap outta that signal. Anytime anything moves there's pixellation and macro blocking all over the place.

The real kicker for me is that the large animated graphics look fine as they move across the screen, but the actual image of the field looks pixellated as the animation moves off screen, then stabilizes in maybe a second or so. I could be wrong, but that really seems to me like compression artifacts.

Is anyone seeing this on OTA? Since I've had limited exposure to sporting events in HD I'm just curious what everyone else thinks.

milehighmike

08-14-06, 02:40 AM

I only watched a little bit of the NBC NFL game on Sunday - last part of the second quarter, halftime, and about 5 minutes into the third quarter. I did watch it OTA. I didn't see any pixellation or macro blocking at all.

kenglish

08-14-06, 07:08 AM

adam1115

08-14-06, 09:18 AM

What is the local law you are referring to that the stations would be violating if they convert to digital in 2009? It currently doesn't exist. The Lookout site is legal, non-conforming. Also, I can't believe that Congress will make an exception for Denver to remain analog in the non-election year of 2009. I believe that the Supreme Court would hear the case before the stations would shut down. I can just see the headlines in September 2009: " Jeffco pulls the plug on TV stations the night before Broncos opener". Now that would upset a few people.

As far as the HD FM, that is exactly my point. In 2009, another feature will be added to the existing analog RF signal, that's all...

Don

They aren't staying on the same channels though.. They're going to have to make changes to broadcaset a different frequency, switch from VHF to UHF. I don't think it's as easy as flipping the turn on the digital switch.

AFAIK the HD Radio stuff broadcasts on the same frequency, so no changes are needed on their towers..

dr_mal

08-14-06, 09:38 AM

The big question will be, would the stations have to apply for construction permits or make building modifications in order to change to DTV? If so, they might run in to some legal issues with the County.
LCG has maintained that they do not need any permits to change out equipment inside their existing buildings.
They aren't staying on the same channels though.. They're going to have to make changes to broadcaset a different frequency, switch from VHF to UHF. I don't think it's as easy as flipping the turn on the digital switch.

AFAIK the HD Radio stuff broadcasts on the same frequency, so no changes are needed on their towers..
If they end up having to do a flash cut from analog to digital, they'll have to end up on their same channels. I know they've already announced their "final" decision on which channel to use to the FCC, but if it's either change their answer or go off the air, I bet the FCC will let them stay on their current channel. Not like the FCC is actually enforcing anything at all related to the digital transition anyway...

BobLikesHDTV

08-14-06, 10:03 AM

The digital portion of KRMA-DT is MIA, both OTA and via Comcast.

The only programming that comes through is Create and, in the early morning, the channel 6 simulcast. Last night via Comcast, they must have given up and retransmitted the channel 6 SD feed. That meant channel 6 last night was on three separate channels (6, 80, and 656).

Whoopie!

oxothuk

08-14-06, 10:53 AM

If they end up having to do a flash cut from analog to digital, they'll have to end up on their same channels. I know they've already announced their "final" decision on which channel to use to the FCC, but if it's either change their answer or go off the air, I bet the FCC will let them stay on their current channel. KUSA, KMGH, and KRMA already have elected to retain their analog frequencies (9,7,6) for digital after the shutoff; so they are all set for a flash-cut on Lookout Mtn. KWGN and KDVR are already operating at medium power levels from Lookout Mountain. KTVD is moving from 20 to 19, close enough that they probably don't need major changes to their transmitter on Mt. Morrison.

The only station with a real problem is KCNC, who have elected to move from channel 4 to 35. At the end of the day, I really don't see them getting pushed off Lookout while everyone else gets to stay.

pkeegan

08-14-06, 10:59 AM

The digital portion of KRMA-DT is MIA, both OTA and via Comcast.
The only programming that comes through is Create and, in the early morning, the channel 6 simulcast. Last night via Comcast, they must have given up and retransmitted the channel 6 SD feed. That meant channel 6 last night was on three separate channels (6, 80, and 656).
Whoopie!

I sent a message to KRMA through their website concerning their loss of OTA HD. I've had issues this week and last. Previously I had none.

RonAuger

08-14-06, 11:25 AM

The problems with KRMA must be because they are testing their new horizontal tower on Mt Morrison. :rolleyes: ;)

milehighmike

08-14-06, 01:26 PM

I'm receiving KRMA digital OK right now with the usual signal strength. I thought they had dropped plans (FCC filing) to move the digital to Mt. Morrision and were going to stay on RP. With that filing, I believe they also elected to stay on RF 18 and not move back to 6.

As far as KTVD flashcutting and staying on RF 19, there may be an issue there if KRMA stays on RF 18. It's my understanding, and I'm NO expert, that adjacent channel interference is not an issue provided the transmitters are close to each other, such as the current situation with RF 16, 17, 18, 19 all on RP. But if the adjacent channels' transmitters are not within a mile or two of each other, adjacent channel interference becomes an issue. Perhaps our friend from SLC, Ken English, can chime in on this "issue?".

milehighmike

08-14-06, 01:41 PM

I grew up in the Buffalo, NY area, so I look at their thread every once in a while to see how my relatives are doing with digital/HDTV. Below is a post from videobruce, a frequent poster on the Buffalo thread:

Gee, it will be easy to tell if you are from Grand Island at night, they will all glow in the dark.
Let's see:
14- 1,000,000 (new xmitter)
15- ??
17- 2,500,000
23- 955,000
29- 3,900,000
32- 1,000,000
34- 34,000 (WUTVs' old xmitter)
43- 156,000

Combined, around 10 million ERP. Yep, they will glow in the dark. And they were worried about the indians................

For background, Grand Island is north of downtown Buffalo and, I believe, part of or near an Indian reservation, the Seneca's, I believe. The wattage for RF 17 and 29 is for analog, WNED and WUTV, and will go away at analog cutoff.

Perhaps sCARE should see how the Grand Island folks are doing, heh, heh. ;)

dline

08-14-06, 02:42 PM

KUSA, KMGH, and KRMA already have elected to retain their analog frequencies (9,7,6) for digital after the shutoff; so they are all set for a flash-cut on Lookout Mtn. KWGN and KDVR are already operating at medium power levels from Lookout Mountain. KTVD is moving from 20 to 19, close enough that they probably don't need major changes to their transmitter on Mt. Morrison.

The only station with a real problem is KCNC, who have elected to move from channel 4 to 35. At the end of the day, I really don't see them getting pushed off Lookout while everyone else gets to stay.You know, when you think about it, if this continues until 2009 the RF issue becomes completely moot.

If they were to flash-cut to digital, 6, 7 and 9 would not be increasing their power, and while KCNC will have to boost its power by going to UHF, KDVR and KTVD would have to CUT their power by 80 percent, since UHF digitals are limited to 1 MW ERP while analogs can do 5 MW. The net result should be a deep cut in ERP, eliminating a prime argument against transmitting from Lookout. So if this goes until 2009, it shouldn't go on much longer.

tcowden

08-14-06, 03:07 PM

Does anyone else have regular audio/video sync problems for Denver locals?

I have both OTA and E* locals and, although it's not 100% consistent, it seems more often than not that the video and audio are not syncing. I don't believe it is a delay caused by video processing within my equipment, because sometimes it is the video that is ahead of the audio.

I had been told by the E* subcontractor who "installed" my ViP622 that there had been some synchronization issues with the HDMI output of this particular model. However, when it occurs, I can switch to component video out and it still has the same issue. And also I can go to OTA and it is still there.

I did a quick search of this thread to see if I could find a previous discussion on this, but the thread is so long it's hard to find it specifically. So, I'm sorry in advance if this has already been discussed ad nauseum.

Thanks!

Tom

dr_mal

08-14-06, 03:09 PM

I haven't noticed any lip sync issues with the locals OTA - at least not regularly. Back in the day, there used to be regular issues but our stalwart station engineers seem to have worked that out.

santellavision

08-14-06, 04:08 PM

I was chattin' with someone who worked at KRMA the other day. They mentioned something positive was happening with their Mt Morrision tower situation. I didn't have time to ask them the details, but will next time I see them.

Anybody still have a contact with them?

kadok

08-14-06, 05:34 PM

Does anyone else have regular audio/video sync problems for Denver locals?

Thanks!

Tom
I have noticed this to. Last night I went into setup and changed audio sync from sync on hd to sync on hd. This seemed to help. This problem on the 622 has been discused at dbstalk.com

kadok

08-14-06, 05:35 PM

Sorry should read "changed sync audio on sd to sync on hd"

aspengold

08-14-06, 10:51 PM

I was able to view their SD broadcast yesterday but then in the evening I couldn't get a picture. Just like the day before. Prior to Wednesday I have had no issues with receiving KRMA.
I've been having the same problem the past few days. I can get the SD broadcast during the day and in the evening the signal comes in for a few seconds then goes away. Has anyone heard from KRMA on what the problem is?

milehighmike

08-15-06, 01:40 AM

I received this email from Don Perez at KUSA this afternoon:

We found a vertical timing issue that was allowing data (white dashes)
to get through the system. This was a by product of number changes we
have made in our systems recently... Thanks

If anyone is still seeing these white dashes (I'm not) they might want to email Don Perez.

milehighmike

08-15-06, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by aspengold:

I've been having the same problem the past few days. I can get the SD broadcast during the day and in the evening the signal comes in for a few seconds then goes away. Has anyone heard from KRMA on what the problem is?

I checked KRMA digital tonight. It was an SD simulcast of the analog program, but I was receiving both picture and sound.

Audiguy3

08-15-06, 12:31 PM

Anyone know how to find the location of the the republic building from Fort Collins.

Antenna web does not show any of the the digital signals from there for my address - so I can not determine where to aim my antenna precisely. My area code is 80525

TIA
Reggie

TotallyPreWired

08-15-06, 01:37 PM

Anyone know how to find the location of the the republic building from Fort Collins.
Reggie,
RP is at: Lat: 39° 44' 37"N Long: 104° 59' 18"W

If you have your coordinates, I can do an 'inverse' for you. That will give you the direction and distance to RP.
....jc

Scott Pro

08-15-06, 02:17 PM

Reggie,
RP is at: Lat: 39° 44' 37"N Long: 104° 59' 18"W

If you have your coordinates, I can do an 'inverse' for you. That will give you the direction and distance to RP.
....jc
Website: www.bnncom.com/distazim.htm will figure azimuth and distance. Click utilities then distance azimuth calculator. Also, www.stevemorse.org/jcal/lation.php will convert your address to lat/long. Finally, www.calculatorcat.com will convert between decimal and h-m-s coordinates. Whew!

UHForever

08-15-06, 04:03 PM

Was goofing around this afternoon with my receiver to check my signal strengths on various stations before the fall TV season, and stumbled across a marginal signal on digital channel 40. I could not quite get a lock on it (didn't want to jeopardize my other stations by moving the Silver Sensor around) but there was most certainly something there. I thought perhaps it might have been KOAA off of Cheyenne Mtn., but I looked them up and they are channel 42. Anyone else 'seeing' this, and if so what the heck is it?

TotallyPreWired

08-15-06, 04:21 PM

Was goofing around this afternoon with my receiver to check my signal strengths on various stations before the fall TV season, and stumbled across a marginal signal on digital channel 40....Anyone else 'seeing' this, and if so what the heck is it?
No. However, the only thing that comes even close is KRMT(WORD OF GOD FELLOWSHIP, INC.). They are broadcasting on UHF 40 with a digital channel number of 41. The are broadcasting from Denver.
....jc

milehighmike

08-15-06, 04:50 PM

KRMT is analog 41 and digital 40, the reverse of what TPW put in his post. That is what you are seeing. Their transmitter, according to the FCC database, looks like it's in the foothills west of Ken Caryl.

aspengold

08-15-06, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by aspengold:

I checked KRMA digital tonight. It was an SD simulcast of the analog program, but I was receiving both picture and sound.
I emailed KRMA on the issue and got this response:

Thanks for the email about our HD signal. We are having problems with the very same issue you described at the station, and are working to resolve it as soon as possible.

Tom Dailey
Assistant Engineering Manager

Audiguy3

08-15-06, 05:13 PM

Reggie,
RP is at: Lat: 39° 44' 37"N Long: 104° 59' 18"W

If you have your coordinates, I can do an 'inverse' for you. That will give you the direction and distance to RP.
....jc
Thanks

my coordinates are:

40.501313, -105.067249
N40°30.07878, W105°4.03494

Thanks

Reggie

TotallyPreWired

08-15-06, 05:38 PM

Ok, from you at:
Lat: 40° 30' 05"N
Long: 105° 04' 02"W

To RP at:
Lat: 39° 44' 37"N
Long: 104° 59' 18"W

is:
52.516 Miles (Great Circle Method)
True Azimuth: 175° 25' 12"

Now that is a true azimuth. For a magnetic azimuth add about 10°.
....jc

Audiguy3

08-16-06, 10:16 AM

Thanks Jc

mbuchana

08-16-06, 10:50 AM

GoldenOTA Viewer

08-16-06, 01:28 PM

I can take this one as I have a little inside info.

- There is no issue with adjacent DTV channels. While such an idea was taboo with analog broadcasts because the signals would bleed into one another, digital channels can be packed tight next to each other without issue.

- As for KRMA, you can thank the CARE group of McMansion owners on Lookout and Morrison for convincing the Colorado Court of Appeals to send the approved Mt. Morrison tower back to the JeffCo commissioners to drag out for another 2-3 years. They claimed KRMA changed the plans after public discussion, but the engineers I spoke with said no changes were ever made. They just provided more details when the commissioners asked for clarification. Too bad. The "tower" was going to be a first-of-its-kind "horizontal" design that would only stand about ten feet in height and would have been camouflaged to be virtually invisible.

Because of this, KRMA is stuck between a rock and a hard place with the FCC deadline coming up on Feb. 2009. So, the current plan is to stick with broadcasting KRMA-DT on UHF 18 from Republic Tower downtown. This will allow them to at least be in compliance until a permanent tower is approved.

The issue with staying with UHF 18 rather than switching back to VHF 6 has to do with radio. Because TV Channel 6 is right next to the low end of the FM radio dial (you can actually pick it up on 87.7 FM) any TV Channel 6 in the country has to share its broadcast location with the educational-band radio stations (89.3, 90.1, etc.) to avoid signal interference. That's why KRMA's current analog tower and the proposed Mt. Morrison tower included the public radio stations too. By sticking with UHF 18, KRMA can broadcast anywhere without having the radio stations tag along.

There is a rumor that if the Lake Cedar Group can actually get its tower approved on Lookout Mountain (which is a longshot because the county commissioners will only listen to the shouts of the CARE group) then KRMA would be allowed back on that tower. That would be good news for me, because where I live in downtown Golden, you can't get any signals from downtown Denver because the Table Mountains block line-of-sight.

I'm receiving KRMA digital OK right now with the usual signal strength. I thought they had dropped plans (FCC filing) to move the digital to Mt. Morrision and were going to stay on RP. With that filing, I believe they also elected to stay on RF 18 and not move back to 6.

As far as KTVD flashcutting and staying on RF 19, there may be an issue there if KRMA stays on RF 18. It's my understanding, and I'm NO expert, that adjacent channel interference is not an issue provided the transmitters are close to each other, such as the current situation with RF 16, 17, 18, 19 all on RP. But if the adjacent channels' transmitters are not within a mile or two of each other, adjacent channel interference becomes an issue. Perhaps our friend from SLC, Ken English, can chime in on this "issue?".

Audiguy3

08-16-06, 07:31 PM

Reggie,

Good luck trying to get the RP stations from Fort Collins. I think you may be able to get some of them some of the time, especially during the right atmospheric conditions. My experience was that I could get KUSA sometimes on summer evenings.

However, I'm very skeptical that you will get reliable reception from the RP stations unless you are at a very lucky higher-altitude location with near line-of-sight to downtown Denver. Hopefully I am wrong.

Mark

Well - I have a attic antenna that works sometimes - It worked more when I was using my Sony HD-200 but now that the antenna is hooked to my new HR10-250 I seldom get the HD channels anymore. I suspect that moving the antenna to the roof with a rotor would be what I need to get over the hump on more consistant reception - as I would not have the anttenuation from the roof and be able to fine tune the pointing of the antenna.

Reggie

Symbios

08-17-06, 04:16 AM

KTFD must have cranked up the power on their digital transmitter or something. I've never been able to receive them before, now they're beaming in at 100% strength right now. It's a shame I don't understand a word of Spanish though...

But a station is a still a station, so that puts the total number of digital stations I can receive to 17 (23 including sub-channels).

Shouldn't I receive some kind award for this? :D

Now all I need is KTVD and KCNC and I think I'd have just about every digital station in Colorado!

Iwanthd

08-17-06, 10:58 AM

Symbios-

Not bad for "Low Power Hell".

Do you use a rotator for your antenna?

RonAuger

08-17-06, 11:10 AM

... if the Lake Cedar Group can actually get its tower approved on Lookout Mountain (which is a longshot because ...Actually, it's already been approved -- twice!
Not that it matters at all. :( :mad:
Welcome to the forum, GOV

MalcolmG

08-17-06, 12:18 PM

Well - I have a attic antenna that works sometimes - It worked more when I was using my Sony HD-200 but now that the antenna is hooked to my new HR10-250 I seldom get the HD channels anymore. I suspect that moving the antenna to the roof with a rotor would be what I need to get over the hump on more consistant reception - as I would not have the anttenuation from the roof and be able to fine tune the pointing of the antenna.

Reggie

Reggie,
When I lived west of Loveland (40.4487, -105.1758, just under 50 miles from RP, I think), I could receive the RP stations with a ChannelMaster 8-bay bowtie on my roof. You might have a little more granite in the way, though.

Symbios

08-17-06, 02:51 PM

Symbios-

Not bad for "Low Power Hell".

Do you use a rotator for your antenna?

I really should change that now. But I think I'll keep it up in honor of those who have fought so hard to receive the RP stations!! ...plus, I'm to lazy to change it.

No rotators here. I have my antenna pointed at the Springs, which is why I get those stations, and the RP stations seem to like coming in through the side of my antenna, and KGWN in through the back (only at night though). Don't know why pointing it at the Springs works so well, and don't care really. After years of only receiving 3 digital stations, I'm as happy as-- well, something thats really happy.

CEB II

08-17-06, 10:07 PM

Wow, a landmark event. I checked the PSIP generated program schedule with my LG tuner a couple of hours ago and I actually had a "real" listed program, no defaults, for every DTV channel I receive. This includes KRMA and all 3 sub-channels of KBDI.

AFAICR, weren't all the stations supposed to have reached that milestone a year ago?

santellavision

08-18-06, 10:00 AM

I was outside chattin' with my neighbors yesterday and they all said they saw me on TV. But, as usual, nobody understood the LCG tower issue. They all still think that LCG wants to keep all the old towers and build (add) a new one! sCARE has really brain-washed these people to think it's all about adding MORE towers and not reducing the number of towers.

After I told them the real story, they all agreed that reducing from 4-1 was a great idea and they were completely under the wrong impression!

ktmglen

08-18-06, 11:57 AM

Moving to the new tower is just like moving any business--you have to keep the business open and money coming in during the move. You might be at two locations temporarily, but, once the move is complete, you get rid of the old place as soon as possible because it's costing you money you don't need to spend to continue to hold on to the old place.

-Glen

RonAuger

08-18-06, 12:09 PM

Ernie -- you should be running for a BCC seat in your spare time :)

code4code5

08-18-06, 02:48 PM

I'm terribly confused...I've been having incredibly mixed results pulling in the stations from RP. I'm getting between 90 and 93% for channel 9, 87% for channel 7, 85% for channel 2, and only 35-51% for channel 4. Most of the time it won't even lock. Have they been having problems with their transmitter?

Additionally, I've been having some trouble locking on to 20-1. Sometimes it's there and soemtimes it's not. Even when I can lock into it, there's a significant amount of drops and blocking. Aren't they on RP as well?

On a side note, I was happy a couple of days ago when I pulled in KKTV ch. 11 out of the Springs. Of course, after a couple of hours it disappeared. That was kind of cool.

santellavision

08-18-06, 03:06 PM

Well, Ron, I can't run for office (too many skeletons in the closet) But, I have been part of a brand-new, non-profit organization that has just started to help the LCG consolidation tower fight. We plan on countering all the sCARE mis-truths and also lobbing the commissioners, Golden council and others to see that the majority of Jeffco is not behind sCARE and actually do want to remove towers and beautify the mountain.

http://www.jeffcomajority.org

squidboy

08-18-06, 03:25 PM

Did anybody watch My Name is Earl or The Office on KUSA HD last night? I checked them out for a few minutes, and neither had audible voices. It was really quite strange, since the background music/sound effects/etc. of the shows were fine, it was just the voice channel that seemed to be missing. The SD channel was fine, as were all the other digital channels (including 9-2).

I'm just wondering if the feed was messed up, or if my equipment wasn't processing the signal properly.

ksellers

08-18-06, 03:36 PM

longrider

08-18-06, 03:40 PM

It was not just you. I noticed it but had just finshed painting the wall behind the equipment and figured I left something unhooked and was too tired to check it out.

pkeegan

08-18-06, 03:56 PM

Symbios

08-18-06, 04:09 PM

Yeah, same thing here. Luckily I have KOAA to fall back on. :)

mknoebel

08-18-06, 04:33 PM

kadok

08-18-06, 06:19 PM

WeatherStar 4000

08-18-06, 08:58 PM

Personally I dumped Comcast back in 1998 or so and haven't looked back.

Between perpetually horrid picture quality here in Louisville and their habit of doing "maintenance" completely unannounced from 2 AM to 6 AM on several occasions to their continued stupid channel sharing arrangments (where one channel gets time from 7 AM to 7 PM and another from 7 PM to 7 AM), it just wasn't worth it. It was also obvious that Comcast wouldn't spend one dime on head end equipment they didn't have to, as in one of the nation's largest concentrations of weather professionals, they still had the original WeatherStar systems for The Weather Channel, providing only white text on a blue background, and had absolutely no plans to ever upgrade.

I can't see ever going back to paying for those headaches...

Actually, Comcast now has an agreement with The Weather Channel and now
only the IntelliSTARs can be found on Comcast, which is the newest technology.

I must say however,the IntelliSTAR is very very awful. I would have
done anything to get the original weatherstar...

milehighmike

08-18-06, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by ksellers:

I had the same issue from the recording on my HR10250. I think that they only had the L and R of their 5.1 mix running.

I thought KUSA couldn't do 5.1 sound??

BobLikesHDTV

08-19-06, 10:33 AM

I had the same issue from the recording on my HR10250. I think that they only had the L and R of their 5.1 mix running.

Kurt

In previous correspondence with Don Perez a few months ago, he was hoping KUSA-DT would have 5.1 late in the year. I can't recall seeing the Dolby D lights come up on my audio receiver recently, but will check it again to see if they now have full Dolby capabilities. That will be nice if they do, with the new season coming up.

longrider

08-19-06, 02:12 PM

KUSA has not turned on 5.1 yet, at least at any time I have been watching. I would assume the network feed has 5.1 so the station must mix it down to 2.0 and that is probably where the problem happened.

CEB II

08-19-06, 09:55 PM

How disappointing to have to watch the Broncos in SD tonight. On the plus side, my OTA DTV SD broadcast is a lot sharper and color saturated than the SD of the game that I get on my E* SD locals channel. OTA DTV, even SD, is still a big step forward in picture quality.

milehighmike

08-20-06, 03:58 AM

I put the SD OTA Bronco's broadcast in stretch mode, drank a few beers, and by the second half, it looked HD to me!!!!!!!!

sssmith

08-20-06, 08:31 PM

I noticed that too (The Office) on my H20 receiver (MPEG 4 with DirecTv).

Mike - when did Denver go live with HD LILs? I was never contacted by D*. I live in Evergreen and have waivers from all networks, so I get my HD "locals" from LA and have the Denver locals in SD.

bkleven

08-20-06, 08:53 PM

I'm not Mike, but...

I believe D* went live with Denver HD LILs sometime pretty close to July 1st, give or take a few days. Additionally, they just released the new MPEG4 HD-DVR (HR20-700) a few days ago to the LA market. They are all abuzz about it over on dbstalk.com. Supposedly the HR20 will be rolled out to other markets within the next couple of months, but I haven't seen any info to confirm whether it will continue to be a staged rollout or whether they'll open up to the whole country at once.

elijah975

08-20-06, 10:11 PM

I just got off the phone with D*.. customer service rep said end of August, beginning of September for the HR20 (i'm in westminster). :) He also said it would be a free upgrade for those of us who bought an HR10.

longrider

08-20-06, 10:16 PM

Tonights football game is the first time my receiver showed 5.1 from KUSA. They obviously have the encoder now, hopefully the servers for delayed programs can handle it.

Greg.Ca

08-21-06, 12:10 AM

Went to S**** T**** and purchased a new Sony SXRD 60 inch. It will be delivered on Thursday or Friday. I live in Highlands Ranch and in my upper bedrooms I have a direct line of sight to Downtown with no obstructions. As I live on a hill, I can see Republic Plaza with no visual obstruction from my upper floor windows all the way from Highlands Ranch! My house is approx 16.5 miles line of sight. I'm hoping that I can use an indoor Silver Sensor antenna without going to an outdoor antenna. The room that the TV will be in is on the main floor of the house and DOES have a visual obstruction to Republic Plaza.

1st question, will I still need an outdoor antenna if i have a line of sight to downtown directly north 16.5 miles away?

I have had D*****TV for the past several years and have two Tivo's (non HDTV). Right now my committment has been satisfied and I can walk away from them and start over as a new customer with one of their competitors. I called tonight and they promised me one free HDTV TIVO. The only catch is that I must agree to another 24 month committment. (Not a biggie). The rep in retention indicated that I would receive a 'older' HD Tivo and that the locals would be received 'off air' and that they would have their installer install an outside antenna. From what I can gather, this contradicts their web site? He indicated that I would be receiving a newer Mpeg4 HD Tivo sometime in the 'fall' and then I could receive Denver locals from the Satellite and not off air. He indicated this 'swap out' would also be done free of charge in the future (November)?

Is there any reason that I shoulden't 'bite' at their offer?

Is D*** N****** any better? I understand that D***N****** offers a better choice of High Def programming but it will cost me $250.00 minimum to jump over to D***N****** with their hardware needed for High Def DVR. Comments regarding D***N******?

I would rather become a satellite customer rather than a cable customer but am opened minded to suggestion. Comments??

Eager and excited to experience HDTV!!! --Greg-- :)

santellavision

08-21-06, 12:21 AM

Highlands Ranch is one of the better spots to receive signals from Republic Plaza. And with being on a hill, that helps even more. My guess is you have a good chance of using the Silver Sensor to get those signals. I would try it first, what have you got to lose? It's a fairly cheap antenna. If you have issues, then you'll have to go the outdoor route. Are you worried about the wife or your HOA? If it's your HOA, they cannot stop you, it's the law. If it's the WAF (Wife acceptance factor) then, jewelery usually works! ;)

I have E* and their 622 DVR. couldn't be happier. They currently have most of the locals in HD on their system. The latest is that E*'s HD compression is a bit better than D*, but that could change.

mknoebel

08-21-06, 01:09 AM

Mike - when did Denver go live with HD LILs? I was never contacted by D*. I live in Evergreen and have waivers from all networks, so I get my HD "locals" from LA and have the Denver locals in SD.

Late June. And I was never contacted by DirecTv - I called them.
I get 4, 7, 9, and 31 in HD. I'm looking forward to the new HR20 DVR! (Soon, I hope!)

UHForever

08-21-06, 02:53 AM

Tonights football game is the first time my receiver showed 5.1 from KUSA. They obviously have the encoder now, hopefully the servers for delayed programs can handle it.

I noticed the 5.1 audio on the tonight's game on KUSA as well. I thought it sounded great! (much better than when they did 5.1 during the Torino Olympics)

Rumor has it that they are still working on getting their new server(s) up to speed for 5.1 audio on the non-live programming, but they are not there yet. (witness the "Earl/Office" audio issues noted on this thread a few days back). I know they want to arrive at their server(s) being able to play out 5.1 audio for both KUSA and KTVD HD Network programming simultaneously, and they are trying to make it happen before the new TV season starts in a few weeks. We'll see if they make it.

Nonetheless you are correct longrider, tonight's football game sounded sweet and I hope that more 5.1 audio comes to fruition ASAP.

UHForever

08-21-06, 03:10 AM

How long has KTFD (Telefutura spanish) been broadcasting a digital signal on Channel 15? I just discovered it tonight, and it's signal is booming into my place south of downtown like a blowtorch. After adding it on my E* 921, it remapped to channel 14-1 (their analog channel) with the above call letters. They are currently broadcasting absolutely nothing, but man does it boom in!

MileHighMike, you were the answerman on my KRMT query...any info on this one?

Could this signal be coming from RP? Is there room/power for any more antennas up there? The signal strength maxes out on my meter, matching KUSA, KMGH, and KTVD, so I have to believe it's somewhere fairly near my location.

Could RP now be home to channels 19, 18, 17, 16 and 15?

If this isn't a new signal, are they just at a much higher power at their old location?

I know I'll probably never watch it, but I'd be curious if anyone has any info about KTFD-DT.

UHForever

08-21-06, 03:24 AM

KTFD must have cranked up the power on their digital transmitter or something. I've never been able to receive them before, now they're beaming in at 100% strength right now. It's a shame I don't understand a word of Spanish though...

Sorry Symbios, I missed this when I did my search before my prior post regarding KTFD...do you know where the Channel 15 signal is coming from? Obviously I'm not the only one getting 'blown away' by it.

Going to bed now before I make even less sense.

Symbios

08-21-06, 04:45 AM

kucharsk

08-21-06, 07:53 AM

EDIT: After a little bit of poking around the ol' map, it looks like the transmitter is actually on Mt. Morrison.Which nicely explains why there is zero sign of it here in Louisville…

oxothuk

08-21-06, 10:47 AM

As far as I know, KTFDs transmitter is located somewhere in Boulder. And according to the FCCs records, that transmitter is kicking out an impressive 2400kW!

I wouldn't be too surprised if you get a knock at your door late at night, and you look down to find a Spanish speaking toaster that claims it came from Boulder, and wants to be your friend. :eek:

EDIT: After a little bit of poking around the ol' map, it looks like the transmitter is actually on Mt. Morrison.According to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp
KTFD analog is on Mt. Morrison, but KTFD-DT is still low power on Davidson Mesa between Boulder and Lousiville. Their radiation pattern is mostly to the north, for some reason.

I used to get 3 spanish DTV stations but currently am receiving none:
a) I get a strong signal for KTFD-DT (14-1) but no picture. I'm pretty certain they are sending some PSIP information which is incompatible with my receiver (LG4200A), since it only started a couple weeks ago when they remapped 15-1 to 14-1. I do get a fully populated program guide.
b) I get a weak signal for KCEC-DT, (50-1) but their video has been stuck on the same frame for about a week, although the audio is fine. Just the opposite of what I need for a Spanish channel.
c) I used to get KDEN-DT (25-1) but have no signal for the past month or so.

milehighmike

08-21-06, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Oxothuk:
According to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp
KTFD analog is on Mt. Morrison, but KTFD-DT is still low power on Davidson Mesa between Boulder and Lousiville. Their radiation pattern is mostly to the north, for some reason.

I used to get 3 spanish DTV stations but currently am receiving none:
a) I get a strong signal for KTFD-DT (14-1) but no picture. I'm pretty certain they are sending some PSIP information which is incompatible with my receiver (LG4200A), since it only started a couple weeks ago when they remapped 15-1 to 14-1. I do get a fully populated program guide.
b) I get a weak signal for KCEC-DT, (50-1) but their video has been stuck on the same frame for about a week, although the audio is fine. Just the opposite of what I need for a Spanish channel.
c) I used to get KDEN-DT (25-1) but have no signal for the past month or so.

KTFD (14.1) used to transmit with a mere 3.9 kW from a location near Boulder with a directional signal mostly to the north. In the past couple of weeks, they have moved their transmission to Mt. Morrison (I believe), upped their power (probably to their license request of 200 kW), and changed their radiation pattern to a less directional pattern that covers metro Denver.

KCEC (50.1) is, IMO, a joke. I haven't checked their signal lately (have to rotate my antenna to pick them up) but the last time I looked, I believe they were transmitting a camera shot of their analog signal. First time I ever saw "snow" on a digital picture!! I don't know what power level they are at right now, but they eventually will have 900 kW per their license application.

I believe KDEN (25.1) also recently upped their power, probably to their license application request of 540 kW) and moved their transmitter from somewhere NW of Boulder to near Longmont. IMO, they have some technical issues that need to be resolved. The video has a consistent red hue and the signal, which I receive at 95%-97% on my E* 211, pixelates every few seconds, basically making the station unwatchable.

I have a thought regarding these 3 stations. They all broadcast in SD only and probably have very small viewer numbers. With some exceptions (e.g. Mt. Morrision location), these stations have good coverage areas and probably reach Ft. Collins. Perhaps "A4Short" or someone up there could check these out. I think KCNC, KGMH, and KUSA should look into "using/leasing" these transmitters for their signals and carrying the spanish SD channels as subchannels as at least a short-term "solution" their low power status. And I really don't think this should be regarded as reinforcing sCARE's perception/contention that locations other than Lookout are viable if it's done right.

Symbios

08-21-06, 01:42 PM

Whoops, they're only broadcasting at 200kW. Their analog transmitter is the one at, 2400kW. How could I have missed that... Thanks for pointing that out, Mike.

TotallyPreWired

08-21-06, 01:57 PM

I wouldn't be too surprised if you get a knock at your door late at night, and you look down to find a Spanish speaking toaster that claims it came from Boulder, and wants to be your friend.
:rolleyes:
Whoops, they're only broadcasting at 200kW. Their analog transmitter is the one at, 2400kW. How could I have missed that...
:rolleyes:
Perhaps you had a few too many tequilas with your 'friends'? :o

jsauser11

08-21-06, 02:10 PM

Per milehighmike's request, I tested KDEN (digital 29), KCEC (digital 51) and KTFD (digital 15) signal strength from southwest Fort Collins (harmony and shields) with my HR 10-250 and OTA antenna (DB8 mounted on 10' pole with rotator on roof).

Got a lock on KDEN (95% signal at 150 degrees) and KTFD (68% signal at 150 degrees).
Could not get a lock on KCEC (best signal strength was 13% at 170 degrees).

At my location, I can't get any signal from Republic Plasa, other than channel 9, which I can't get a lock on.

GutBomb

08-21-06, 04:34 PM

Symbios

08-21-06, 05:08 PM

i just saw the spot being aired on channel 9. the one where they try to explain the tower issue. anyone with an HDTV is already going to support the tower, and anyone without an HDTV is going to take the woman saying "i want HDTV and i don't want to have to pay $77 a month for it" as a "boo hoo i want it all for free gimmie gimmie gimmie". Same with the guy that says "all i want is a free digital signal"

The ad sorta misses the mark, and it makes it look like a bunch of rich people that are too cheap to pay for cable and satellite. I know that's not the case, but someone that is misinformed or uninformed may not support the efforts if they misunderstand it. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Yes! I couldn't agree more with you GB.
I've been meaning to write about this myself, but I totally forgot about it.

I think LCG is going at this the wrong way with these ads, they really do make us look like whiny rich people.

I think they need to mention that in 2009, analog TV is dead. This tower issue affects EVERYBODY who receives TV over the air, not just the “rich people”. It needs to be mentioned that people will need a digital signal if they still want to watch free TV over the air.

I also think LCG should stop using the term HDTV so freakin' much, and start using the term "Digital TV" a little more. Because this problem isn't just about HDTV. It's about over the air TV in general. I know from experience, that when some people hear the term "HDTV", they immediately think of $3000 plasmas that they can't afford, so why should they care?