Unfortunately Denver county here (by about 50 feet).

Is the spot you saw a new one, or the same spot that Ernie and I are in?

Is there a new one? I've only been seeing the one Ernie and you are in.

Hey, looks like Kenglish has got the script and cinematography for the latest LCG ad all worked out for us, now we just need someone to shoot it, cut it, and throw a little dramatic music in there somewhere, and we're golden (no pun intended).

Late June. And I was never contacted by DirecTv - I called them.
I get 4, 7, 9, and 31 in HD. I'm looking forward to the new HR20 DVR! (Soon, I hope!)

The HR20 is being discussed in detail on DBStalk.com:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=61862

An invitation to all Coloradoans to visit the new Denver, CO - Satellite thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=709744

It's not really NEW anymore. You also posted this 10 days ago.

BTW Don't forget the Denver Comcast thread (which is much older): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=293562 .

I will be moving (again) at the end of the month into a condo and just obtained permission from the HOA manager to put a non-penetrating roof mount up for my DBS antennas (2) and want to also put a CM 3021 on it. Has anyone bought one locally? I know where to get them online I just thought it might be easier to get one here. My 4228 is just to big for the platform.

I plan on building the frame from 2X4s and then hold it down with sandbags. It will take a bit of creativity, but mounting all 3 on one small platform shouldn't be to hard. It will also not be visible from the ground since the rooftop is flat and it will be placed in the middle of the roof.

I will be moving (again) at the end of the month into a condo and just obtained permission from the HOA manager to put a non-penetrating roof mount up for my DBS antennas (2) and want to also put a CM 3021 on it. Has anyone bought one locally? I know where to get them online I just thought it might be easier to get one here. My 4228 is just to big for the platform.

I plan on building the frame from 2X4s and then hold it down with sandbags. It will take a bit of creativity, but mounting all 3 on one small platform shouldn't be to hard. It will also not be visible from the ground since the rooftop is flat and it will be placed in the middle of the roof.Just as a caution from an engineer: you may want to check permissible weight loading on the roof where you plan to place it. Exceeding maximum Lbs/SF might be a good way to break your lease, but is not advised. :)

Just as a caution from an engineer: you may want to check permissible weight loading on the roof where you plan to place it. Exceeding maximum Lbs/SF might be a good way to break your lease, but is not advised. :)
The base, 2 dishes and the UHF antenna would most likely weigh under 50 pounds, plus 1 50 pound sandbag on each corner. This would equate to about 250 pounds spread over roughly 25 SqFt, no problem for any modern roof structure particularily one that has to be engineered for 100 year max wet snow weights.

Just as a caution from an engineer: you may want to check permissible weight loading on the roof where you plan to place it. Exceeding maximum Lbs/SF might be a good way to break your lease, but is not advised. :)
:rolleyes:
Lease, smeash. The important thing is that if the roof fails, the 2 dishes and the antenna remain oriented correctly. There is always time for 'damage control' later, but if the game(being watched) is disrupted, That Is A Disaster! :p
....jc

Well this is strange, suddenly none of the RP stations are coming in. Did they lose power down there or something?

I'm still getting all of the Springs stations, plus KWGN (KDVR-DT is still gone), so it can't be me. ...can it?

Guys,
You don't have to live in Jeffco to be part of the JeffcoMajority. Anyone can be part of the group. It's open to all. We just want concerned citizens who want to keep Denver TV free.

Originally posted by Symbios:
Well this is strange, suddenly none of the RP stations are coming in. Did they lose power down there or something?

I'm still getting all of the Springs stations, plus KWGN (KDVR-DT is still gone), so it can't be me. ...can it?

I have had good reception from RP tonight. I also tweaked my antenna, rotating it 3 degrees back towards the NW and KDVR is now back. The wind must have moved it a little. I'll probably have to re-sync my rotor tomorrow.

For those of you who receive KGWN out of Cheyenne, I noticed when I surfed the channels to try to find KDVR again, that they have the white dashes, not exactly like KUSA's were, but close, dancing along the top of my screen. I don't watch them except for the Sportsmachine on Sunday nites, but maybe someone up north who can't receive KCNC might be interested in contacting them.

Ernie, I agree with some of the previous posts about JeffcoMajority. I did go to the website link you provided and read the material. By my reading of it, it looked like it was intended for JeffCo residents, not a metro-wide organization. I say this constructively, so please don't take this negatively, but from your previous posts you described this organization as dedicated to the tower issue. However, as I read the web site material, it inferred that while the tower issue was the one that was going to be addressed right now, the organization would be involved with other JeffCo issues. That's why I felt, as a Douglas County resident, that I didn't belong because this was a JeffCo organization. I think credibility is very important regarding this issue, so if the organization has no intention of devoting any efforts to other issues, perhaps this is a bit misleading?

I have two constructive suggestions. First, a name change would be good so that folks like me feel included, something like MetroMajority or SupportingOverTheAirTV (SOTA-TV) or MetroAreaCitizensActingTogether (MACAT). I'm sure somebody can come up with something better. The other suggestion, if I perceive the organization correctly, is to drop any inferences to anything but digital OTA TV (not limited to Lookout, remember KRMA is still having problems) and state clearly that the objectives of the organization are to insure full power digital TV in the Denver metro area. Those objectives should clearly state support for LCG and the intention to provide facts and information to expose the CARE misinformation campaign (or something to that effect).

I am retired, so I would have some time to assist with this effort, if you are interested. But I'm hesitant to do so unless the organization is clearly metro-wide and has nothing else to do with JeffCo issues/politics outside of the DTV issue. You're welcome to PM me if you wish.

I meant to add this to my previous post, but it was too long anyway.

I've now seen posts where channels 14 (15), 25 (29) and 53 (46) are received up north, in Ft. Collins. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding my previous post of having KCNC, KMGH, and KUSA "lease" these channels and carry the spanish/religious progamming as SD subchannels? I thought it might be viable, but perhaps it's too late in the evening. This is done in other markets. In my hometown of Buffalo, WBIV (CBS) carries WNLO, which is either WB or UPN, as a subchannel.

That would mean the end of reception for at least some stations for those of us shadowed from Mt. Morrison by the foothills (roughly meaning south of CO 7 and west of US 287...)

Guys,
You don't have to live in Jeffco to be part of the JeffcoMajority. Anyone can be part of the group. It's open to all. We just want concerned citizens who want to keep Denver TV free.

I didn't believe the amount of misinformation out there about proposed DTV tower until I saw the video of the last Golden city council meeting. This is unbelievable! Three different residents talked about the cancer fears of RF as if there was any evidence to support it. If you want to see it for yourself, check out the first 19 minutes of the August 10th meeting webcast on the Golden city website. (I'd post the link, but I don't have permission yet.)

This is the only information the Golden city council is using in its decision about the tower. Steve Gray, the attorney featured in this video who represents LCG, says the council won't even meet with him and he has to sign up to speak at council meetings just to have any face time with them.

I've seen the health report the "sCARE" group has on their website, and it says clearly there is no link between the towers and any cancer. I even contacted the FCC this past week asking if there was any complaint I could file against CARE. When I mentioned that this group is fighting the tower because of fears of cancer, the FCC rep actually laughed out loud, asking "Are they planning on building a nest on the tower five feet from the transmission source?"

Here's something else scary: On July 8, I stopped in the Thirteenth St Bake Shop in Golden and saw JeffCo commissioner Dave Auburn meeting with tower opponents, and he was actually giving them advice on how to present their case! LCG actually asked me to sign an affidavit about it.

Unless more of us speak up about this, the scare tactics are going to win out on this one.

That has to be one of the most informative and powerful second posts I have ever read! Thanks for the information and keep up the good work! :)

BTW, we now expect that each of your posts will be equally as valuable! ;)

OMT: Anyone have any info on buying that CM 3021 antenna locally?

OMT: Anyone have any info on buying that CM 3021 antenna locally?

If you are willing to drive a little I know Pueblo Wintronics is a CM dealer. They had everything I needed when I was setting up but at least in my case (with a big truck) it was cheaper to pay shipping from Solid Signal than to drive to Pueblo

OMT: Anyone have any info on buying that CM 3021 antenna locally?

I just looked at the ChannelMaster website, which lists Lowes as a retailer. Lowes does carry (or at least list) many CM products. Any chance they could order one in?




As for the RF concerns - we've heard it so many times, but I'd like to have something tangible - any written documentation describing where the RF levels are now, what the FCC limits are, and where they'll be when the new tower is up.

Can anyone point me to such a thing? Heck, I might even have seen a link posted here over the years...

Thanks gang

As for the RF concerns - we've heard it so many times, but I'd like to have something tangible - any written documentation describing where the RF levels are now, what the FCC limits are, and where they'll be when the new tower is up.

Check out some of the introduction to ham radio books. Most of these have a section on the FCC RF limits including pointers to the applicable FCC MPE regs (Part 1 and OET Bulletin 65).

The limits are fairly complicated because of controlled (i.e. occupational) vs uncontrolled (i.e. general population) exposure, what is limited varies by frequency, and the limits themselves vary by frequency. Also, the limits don't specify maximum field strengths but instead specify maximum permissible exposure.

In other words, I could build a transmitter capable of vaporizing a human at two feet, but as long as I built a fence to keep humans at a far enough distance to comply with the MPE limits from that transmitter, I would be within limits. A microwave oven comes to mind as an example.

I think the MPE limits are the same for all radio services. For example, in the UHF band (300-1500MHz) for the general population the maximum permissible exposure is f/1500 mW/cm^2 averaged over a 30 minute interval. (f is the frequency in MHz)

As an aside, do sCARE people own microwave ovens?

-Glen

As an aside, do sCARE people own microwave ovens?
:rolleyes:
Sure. But their 'kitchen staff' are the only ones who know where they are and how to use them. :p

That has to be one of the most informative and powerful second posts I have ever read! Thanks for the information and keep up the good work! :)

BTW, we now expect that each of your posts will be equally as valuable! ;)

OMT: Anyone have any info on buying that CM 3021 antenna locally?

Hey Tim,

I got mine at Ace Hardware over in Tamarac Square a couple of years ago. Don't know if they still carry them or not, though.

Thanks Mark I'll give them a call.

If I order online, the Winegard PR-4400 is much cheaper to ship.
Anyone using one of these or even a SquareShooter with any success?

Lots of reviews online, but none from our wonderful world of low power DTV.

Is there something I don't understand here? I read within the last year of posts on this thread that only about 15% of the ambient Lookout Mountain RF radiation comes from all of the television transmissions put together. Most if not all of the rest was FM broadcasts. Why is radiation an issue at all if TV isn't to blame? Why aren't people dealing with the relevant facts?

Its about property values. Towers get removed, home prices skyrocket.

If there is any fear of RF from the towers in the home-buying public, sCARE has nobody but themselves to blame for all the fear-mongering they've done.

-Glen

Is there something I don't understand here? I read within the last year of posts on this thread that only about 15% of the ambient Lookout Mountain RF radiation comes from all of the television transmissions put together. Most if not all of the rest was FM broadcasts. Why is radiation an issue at all if TV isn't to blame? Why aren't people dealing with the relevant facts?

This business of radiation is just silly. Tell me where the present Golden city council and Jeffco commissioners were when the FBI raided Rocky Flats? Now THAT was a danger. Hell, it may STILL be a danger! Where are they now on the Flats, now that some want to REDEVELOP the land for homes?

Strontium was measured in the ground water at the Flats, for Heaven's sake. It is a mineral only created as the result of a nuclear reaction. It suggests there was a criticality (a spontaneous reaction) at some point in the Flats history, though the Department of Energy "scientists" said it was from above-ground nuclear testing throughout the world. DOE was the problem at the Flats, though, and many physicist disagreed with them. That's why the FBI, another agency, raided several DOE sites on the same day all over the country.

But those physicists and the FBI agents didn't own the right politicians during King George I's reign.

To borrow from George Orwell, "Welcome to CowTown, Colorado, USA where some of cows are more equal than others".

Thirteenth St Bake Shop in Golden and saw JeffCo commissioner Dave Auburn meeting with tower opponents, and he was actually giving them advice on how to present their case! LCG actually asked me to sign an affidavit about it.

Unless more of us speak up about this, the scare tactics are going to win out on this one.

Going to? If Auburn is meeting with sCare over breakfast in a local bakeshop, the fix is in, friend.

I have no doubt that this decision by the commissioners will come after the election. They don't want it coming up during the election, so it is being kept low-key. If I were LCG, I'd raise it as an issue right now through TV ads. Go really negative. Take out Auburn politically.

We have to turn this into a major issue in this year's election.

We have to do it NOW.

We have to use Auburn as an example. He has to pay with his job.

There are 10 weeks left.

If there is any fear of RF from the towers in the home-buying public, sCARE has nobody but themselves to blame for all the fear-mongering they've done.
Then their spin/propaganda has been effective, and sCARE would like nothing more.
....jc

We have to use Auburn as an example. He has to pay with his job.

Clearly, they're waiting until after the election to take a vote. Who is his opponent? What is his opponent's stand on the towers?

Clearly, they're waiting until after the election to take a vote. Who is his opponent? What is his opponent's stand on the towers?

I just checked and it turns out only one commissioner's post is on the ballot this fall, and it's District 3 with Dave Auburn. His opponent is Dem Kathy Hartman, and her website is kathyhartman-dot-org.

I just checked and it turns out only one commissioner's post is on the ballot this fall, and it's District 3 with Dave Auburn. His opponent is Dem Kathy Hartman, and her website is kathyhartman-dot-org.

I take it she's anti-tower too. From her website:

"I support the current Open Space Master Plan and all efforts to protect our mountain backdrop. I will appoint environmentally sensitive members to the Planning Commission, and will oppose rezoning requests that significantly degrade wetlands, wildlife corridors, or the visual appeal of our mountain communities."

Does anybody know for sure?

While searching to find a small but effective OTA antenna that should work well in the Denver area, I came across THIS (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html) information. Essentially, computer generated results of what level of performance (gain) you can expect from the leading antennas. The tests were run because a ham radio magazine was getting frustrated by the numbers advertisers were posting for their particular product's performance, when in reality true performance never equalled what was claimed. Keep in mind that the results were not generated by field testing, but since they were all analyzed using the same software, I would expect that actual performance would closely reflect the data in the graphs.

I was quite surprised how poorly a couple of them performed, including one that was on my prospective list.

I had narrowed down my choices to 2 prior to reading this info. I was leaning toward buying the CM 3021, but it appears to roll off at the lower end (Ch 2-9), so I decided to order the Winegard PR 4400 instead. The 3021 beats it at the higher frequencies, but since most of our locals are not in that range I felt the 4400 might be the better option.

I will post my results after I move and get it installed. Those of you frustrated with your reception may want to give the graphs a look to see how your particular antenna measures up.

Well, when she was on "Colorado Exposed" last year, she said she was on the fence about it. And she was a little worried about the effects it might have on peoples health.

But that was last year, she may have fallen off the fence and landed in Scarey town by now.

I emailed KMGH (ABC-ch.7) regarding if they will be broadcasting Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy in HD beginning 9/11/06 and I think we have a good chance. See the reply below:

Dear Viewer -

We are currently working through the technical issues with King World in order to broadcast both Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune in HD this fall. We hope to be able to resolve these issues before the start of the new season so that we may bring you these programs in HD. Please stay tuned.

Thank you for watching.

Denver's 7 KMGH-TV

Well, when she was on "Colorado Exposed" last year, she said she was on the fence about it. And she was a little worried about the effects it might have on peoples health.

But that was last year, she may have fallen off the fence and landed in Scarey town by now.

Approving a re-zoning request to replace four towers with one is not significantly degrading the mountain backdrop, but improving it. Maybe she's on our side after all.

-Glen

Cool link, Jetlag!

-Glen

Well, when she was on "Colorado Exposed" last year, she said she was on the fence about it. And she was a little worried about the effects it might have on peoples health.
But that was last year, she may have fallen off the fence and landed in Scarey town by now.


From what I've noticed talking with Golden city councilors is they have no idea about the issue. So they just listen to whoever screams the loudest. If they don't hear from anyone supporting the tower, they assume everyone is against it.

Don't forget the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment found the diagnosed cancer cases to be nearly 10 percent below the expected number of cases on Lookout Mountain, which covered 23 years of cancer statistics.

(This post is a rerun).

And also remember that it isn't replacing four towers with one. It's replacing four towers with NONE.

And also remember that it isn't replacing four towers with one. It's replacing four towers with NONE.

What's sad for those who think they can clear off Lookout Mountain is they could be stuck with all towers staying and none taken down if the consolidated tower isn't approved.

The LCG stations' current permits won't allow additional transmitters on their towers, which is why they don't have temporary DTV broadcasts there now and why they want the new tower for a transition period. It looks like if all else fails, they'll wait until the analog shutoff on Feb. 17, 2009 and switch to DTV using the same towers. It's still following the permit because there would still be just one transmitter broadcasting on each tower.

Apparently, there is precedence for this with cell phone towers switching from analog to digital without having to deal with local zoning. However, no TV stations have had to deal with this. So, it's still a gamble... and you know who would be filing suit over it.

You probably will not have much sway over her. As she says on her website:

"I support the current Open Space Master Plan and all efforts to protect our mountain backdrop. I will appoint environmentally sensitive members to the Planning Commission, and will oppose rezoning requests that significantly degrade wetlands, wildlife corridors, or the visual appeal of our mountain communities."

She has the same "visual appeal" "and "protect our mountain backdrop" verbage as sCARE.

Also, there are a number of Jefferson County "Town Hall Meetings" coming up.

Commissioners Host Town Hall Meetings

Thursday, September 14, 2006
7:00 p.m. to 8:45 p.m.
Evergreen Lake House
29614 Upper Bear Creek Rd.
Evergreen

Wednesday, September 27, 2006
7:00 p.m. to 8:45 p.m.
Standley Lake Library
8485 Kipling St.
Arvada

Thursday, October 12
7:00 p.m. to 8:45 p.m.
Columbine Library
7706 W. Bowles Ave.
Littleton

Jefferson County's elected officials look forward to seeing you and will welcome your views on issues affecting the county.

While searching to find a small but effective OTA antenna that should work well in the Denver area, I came across THIS (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html) information. Essentially, computer generated results of what level of performance (gain) you can expect from the leading antennas. The tests were run because a ham radio magazine was getting frustrated by the numbers advertisers were posting for their particular product's performance, when in reality true performance never equalled what was claimed. Keep in mind that the results were not generated by field testing, but since they were all analyzed using the same software, I would expect that actual performance would closely reflect the data in the graphs.

I was quite surprised how poorly a couple of them performed, including one that was on my prospective list.

I had narrowed down my choices to 2 prior to reading this info. I was leaning toward buying the CM 3021, but it appears to roll off at the lower end (Ch 2-9), so I decided to order the Winegard PR 4400 instead. The 3021 beats it at the higher frequencies, but since most of our locals are not in that range I felt the 4400 might be the better option.

I will post my results after I move and get it installed. Those of you frustrated with your reception may want to give the graphs a look to see how your particular antenna measures up.

Thanks for the link, Jetlag. Very informative and has links to other good places.

Another letter to the editor in favor of the tower: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/letters/article/0,2777,DRMN_23966_4942690,00.html
Once again, however, the reference was made to HDTV instead of Digital TV. Ah well, at least the issue is being raised.

Yesterday my new Sony 60 SXRD was delivered to my home in Highlands Ranch. As of yet, I do NOT have any High Def Programming. Comcast is suppossed to deliver my new High Def Tivo next Friday.

I am temporarily using an indoor Silver Sensor Antenna and was lucky enough to pick up these digital stations: 2.1, 2.2, 6.1, 7.1, 14.1, 20.1, 25.1, 31.1, and 50.1. These were found when the internal tuner 'searched' for channels.

My home is on a hill 16.5 miles directly south of Republic Plaza. Why is it that I am able to pick up some of the channels on Republic Plaza (channel 7) but not channel 4 or 9?? I was dissapointed last night that I was unable to pick up CBS or NBC.

I would like to have some external antenna on the outside of my home as high as possible. Any reccommendations on who or whom I can hire to install this antenna? I would like to have a wall mounted antenna (studs are on 16 inch centers. ) What antenna mounting hardware attaches to two sets of studs mounted 16 inch apart? Vendors?

Thanks for the help guys. So far HDTV looks great!! Welcome me to the group!!--Greg--

Welcome!

I am temporarily using an indoor Silver Sensor Antenna and was lucky enough to pick up these digital stations: 2.1, 2.2, 6.1, 7.1, 14.1, 20.1, 25.1, 31.1, and 50.1. These were found when the internal tuner 'searched' for channels.

My home is on a hill 16.5 miles directly south of Republic Plaza. Why is it that I am able to pick up some of the channels on Republic Plaza (channel 7) but not channel 4 or 9?? I was dissapointed last night that I was unable to pick up CBS or NBC.
I don't believe that it's a power issue, they are all similar low power transmissions. I think that it's because their antennas(and beam tilts) are slightly different. Me, KTVD is my most reliable station from RP, and the rest are usually DOA unless there are good atmospheric conditions.

I would like to have some external antenna on the outside of my home as high as possible. Any reccommendations on who or whom I can hire to install this antenna? I would like to have a wall mounted antenna (studs are on 16 inch centers. ) What antenna mounting hardware attaches to two sets of studs mounted 16 inch apart? Vendors?
Do you have any walls that are perpendicular to RP & Lookout? That would make it easy, and a 'flat' CM dipole would work fine. Otherwise, you'll need some sort of a mounting 'standoff'. Unfortunately, I don't live close or I'd help ya with it.
....jc

I am temporarily using an indoor Silver Sensor Antenna and was lucky enough to pick up these digital stations: 2.1, 2.2, 6.1, 7.1, 14.1, 20.1, 25.1, 31.1, and 50.1. These were found when the internal tuner 'searched' for channels.

My home is on a hill 16.5 miles directly south of Republic Plaza. Why is it that I am able to pick up some of the channels on Republic Plaza (channel 7) but not channel 4 or 9?? I was dissapointed last night that I was unable to pick up CBS or NBC.

I would like to have some external antenna on the outside of my home as high as possible. Any reccommendations on who or whom I can hire to install this antenna? I would like to have a wall mounted antenna (studs are on 16 inch centers. ) What antenna mounting hardware attaches to two sets of studs mounted 16 inch apart? Vendors?

Thanks for the help guys. So far HDTV looks great!! Welcome me to the group!!--Greg--
Welcome to the group!
I live in Centennial near County Line & Holly. I do not have a direct view of downtown but I get very good reception on an outside mounted DB2 from Antennas Direct. It is mounted via a J bracket, just like a small sat dish, to some facial that has some back support. I did't mount it too high as I did the install myself and wanted access to it with relative ease. Nice thing about that is that it isn't too noticable as the higher parts of the roof obsure it from the south and east. I decided on the lower height as it was high enough not to be obstructed by buildings and future growth of the trees in the general area and had a decent view to the north.
I used a Silver Sensor for a while till I could get the outside antenna up. You probably just have to play with it's orientation to pick up 4 and 9. Its a little tricky but you should be able to get it to work. I was able to at my location.
Good Luck. :)

Comcast is suppossed to deliver my new High Def Tivo next Friday.
Not trying to be a smart-aleck (for once :) ) but are they seriously rolling out boxes with TiVo inside? Or is it just their generic DVR? I thought I'd heard that they would roll out the real TiVo software sometime 2nd half...

LOL, It won't have Tivo.

Yesterday my new Sony 60 SXRD was delivered to my home in Highlands Ranch. As of yet, I do NOT have any High Def Programming. Comcast is suppossed to deliver my new High Def Tivo next Friday.

I am temporarily using an indoor Silver Sensor Antenna and was lucky enough to pick up these digital stations: 2.1, 2.2, 6.1, 7.1, 14.1, 20.1, 25.1, 31.1, and 50.1. These were found when the internal tuner 'searched' for channels.
--

As a point of reference for you, I also have a 60XBR1 SXRD and get the following signal levels on my internal TV tuner: 2.1:81-84, 4.1:73-78, 7.1:76, 9.1:67.70, 31.1:81-84.* I can't lock on 19.1.

I live north of Castle Pines North. I'm running an external DB4 with a 7778 preamp. I have enough strength for all the main stations with very few dropouts.* The antenna is pointed toward RP.* I don't have line of sight, so like I said, this is really only a point of reference.

Noticed last night on Letterman and this morning on Tennis, HD KCNC 4 CBS via DirectTV using the H-20 box the HD programming is absolutely terrible. Before last night everything looked great. Switched to OTA KCNCDT 4-1 via the H-20 and indoor silver sensor antenna and reception is excellent. All other Denver Local HD stations (KDVR 31 FOX, KMGH 7 ABC, KUSA 9 NBC) via DirectTV using the H-20 box look great. This must be an issue with KCNC 4.

Any comments from subscribers to D* using the H-20 box would be appreciated.

Not trying to be a smart-aleck (for once :) ) but are they seriously rolling out boxes with TiVo inside? Or is it just their generic DVR? I thought I'd heard that they would roll out the real TiVo software sometime 2nd half...

In a conversation with a manager back in January, he informed me that, yes, they would offer TIVO several ways to Comcast subscribers.

The first is as a TIVO box. The second is as a TIVO software upgrade to the existing PVR.

At the time, however, he told me they would charge extra for either.

Mal, what are the details on this TIVO box? More than one tuner? Are they charging extra?

Once you get it, would you please post a full work-up on the box to the Comcast AVS group? If it works well, I may switch myself. Frankly, the Motorola 6412 needs to be put out of its misery.

Did you talk to them about the Panasonic? If so, those details would be greatly appreciated as well.

Comcast will roll out TiVo as a software update to the Motorola 6412 boxes already in service. This software is in beta testing in different markets around the country, but Denver is not one of those markets. The earliest we expect to see TiVo as an option on Comcast is towards the end of the year. The Motorola box has two tuners and a 120GB drive. Much of the information is summarized in this thread...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=682350&page=1&pp=30

Also, TiVo should be rolling out a cablecard based box that will work with Comcast as a QAM and OTA tuner. It will not, however, be able to access the OnDemand and PPV services from Comcast. The TiVo Series 3 will have two tuners and should have a 250GB drive. No word on pricing yet.

NBC: The Emmys in Standard Definition

The following message was sent to NBC via email. nbcshows@nbc.com

--

NBC once again has me scratching my head.

In the past they refused to show live events in High Definition, including the Macy's 4th of July Fireworks and the Olympics.

After a great deal of criticism, they corrected that error.

Except for tonight.

Tonight, with respect to broadcast resolution standards, we were planted firmly in 1965.

One would think that the annual awards show that celebrates excellence in the television arts and sciences would be inclined to show off the sciences portion with state-of-the-art digital HD.

But no. We watched the program in the same resolution as those antique broadcasts of Flipper, Gentle Ben, and Bonanza. Oh, excuse me. Bonanza was a state-of-the-art program, broadcasting in color in the 1950s. That puts it ahead of the 2006 Emmy's in terms of the science side of television.

Why?

The people of the United States gave the TV broadcasters quite a gift with all that additional bandwidth for digital television. I'm beginning to think we should take it back and sell it to the highest bidder with one priviso: the winning bidder must broadcast better than 75% of the schedule in high definition.

Until that day and whenever I see an NBC program in standard definition rather than high, I will turn the channel and watch anything else, including a test pattern.

Broncos-Texans on 31-1, why is it letterboxed? Can't they support 16x9?

It's in glorious 4:3 on Comcast. Not HD, either (AFAIK, no Broncos preseason games were/are in HD).

"The people of the United States gave the TV broadcasters quite a gift with all that additional bandwidth for digital television. I'm beginning to think we should take it back and sell it to the highest bidder with one priviso: the winning bidder must broadcast better than 75% of the schedule in high definition."

There goes that same old stuff about "gifts".....the people gave themselves a gift of bandwidth to keep their own analog TV sets working. Broadcasters spent a lot of money to fill the second channel with programming that few people will ever see (since so many will never view an OTA digital signal....just cable and satellite).

The blame should be placed on whoever produced the show. They are the ones who did not spring for the extra costs of doing it in HDTV.

How were the ratings for the Emmys? That might be a clue. If too few people were expected to watch, then they might have not felt justified in increasing their facilities and transmission costs ten-fold.

I agree. It sux when something of this caliber is not in HD. But, don't blame "the broadcasters", write to the producers and sponsors.

It's in glorious 4:3 on Comcast. Not HD, either (AFAIK, no Broncos preseason games were/are in HD).
This game was really a rebroadcast of the NFL nework which was covering the game - not Fox. The scary part is that this network also has the Nov game (Thanksgiving??) of the Broncos and KC - and hence I doubt it will be HD too.

I switched to watching this game on D* NFL channel as that appeared to have a more clear picture than either Fox on D* or Fox on 31-1.

Reggie

This game was really a rebroadcast of the NFL nework which was covering the game - not Fox. The scary part is that this network also has the Nov game (Thanksgiving??) of the Broncos and KC - and hence I doubt it will be HD too.
Reggie, fear not, the game will be in HD(the NFL Network produces lots of them). The problem is where will you be able to watch it in HD? Or maybe the better question is: Will the NFL Network pass the HD feed along to the chosen local station? Or, will D* have it on channel 95 or 96? Many questions, few answers.

I switched to watching this game on D* NFL channel as that appeared to have a more clear picture than either Fox on D* or Fox on 31-1.
That's funny. I did the same comparison(using the same receiver) between D* analog NFL Network, and KDVR OTA digital. To my eye, the KDVR broadcast was a bit clearer. But, then again, my eyes ain't what they used to be! :p
....jc

That's funny. I did the same comparison(using the same receiver) between D* analog NFL Network, and KDVR OTA digital. To my eye, the KDVR broadcast was a bit clearer. But, then again, my eyes ain't what they used to be! :p
....jc

I too felt the KDVR broadcast was a bit clearer. (Did the same comparison as above). Also tried the NFL network and Fox off of D* on my other receiver. Went back to KDVR 31-1 for best (IMHO) viewing.

# Matt

Reggie, fear not, the game will be in HD(the NFL Network produces lots of them). The problem is where will you be able to watch it in HD? Or maybe the better question is: Will the NFL Network pass the HD feed along to the chosen local station? Or, will D* have it on channel 95 or 96? Many questions, few answers.


That's funny. I did the same comparison(using the same receiver) between D* analog NFL Network, and KDVR OTA digital. To my eye, the KDVR broadcast was a bit clearer. But, then again, my eyes ain't what they used to be! :p
....jc
jc - that is good news about the HD. Let's keep our fingers crossed. Since it is a national feed let's hope it will be carried in HD by someone local that we can get. - either Fox Cheyenne Channel 5 or D* in my case.
And my eyes are not to be used for any comparisons - at my age. :)

Reggie

Well, my picture was crystal clear! Better than HD. But I did have to clean my binocular lenses after the rain stopped. :D

The Bronx won, but it certainly wasn't pretty even for a pre-season game.

This game was really a rebroadcast of the NFL nework which was covering the game - not Fox. The scary part is that this network also has the Nov game (Thanksgiving??) of the Broncos and KC - and hence I doubt it will be HD too.

I switched to watching this game on D* NFL channel as that appeared to have a more clear picture than either Fox on D* or Fox on 31-1.

Reggie
Ch 31 told me - twice - that the Thanksgiving simulcast WOULD be in HD.

Ch 31 told me - twice - that the Thanksgiving simulcast WOULD be in HD.
I guess that you watched more of the game than I did! ;) So, I guess that confirms; That KDVR will have the broadcast & the game will be in HD!

Of course, my TV rarely talks to me. :confused:
....jc

Well, my picture was crystal clear! Better than HD. But I did have to clean my binocular lenses after the rain stopped. :D

The Bronx won, but it certainly wasn't pretty even for a pre-season game.
Off topic but the Broncos were no better than last year IMHO - three and out too many times - and could not put the game away.

The D looked good (and last year they were good too) but the offense can not score after taking a lead. Is this play calling????

Reggie

I was doing some tinkering with my system the other day and made an interesting discovery. I have my OTA antenna diplexed into the feed from my D* ODU. Another diplexer separates the feeds before they reach the back of my H20. My OTA reception isn't bad for some channels, but some others are miserable. When I disconnect the satellite cable from the H20, my OTA reception increases exponentially and I can easily get everything out there.

Is there anything short of removing the diplexers that I can do to fix this?

I switched to watching this game on D* NFL channel as that appeared to have a more clear picture than either Fox on D* or Fox on 31-1.

Reggie

For me the best PQ was 31-1, followed by the NFL Network on E*, followed by 31 on E*. However, even the 31-1 SD was a big step down from the SD provided for last week's game by KCNC on 4-1. Must have been losses in the transmission from the NFL Network. Sound was OK, but the announcing crew really sucked (almost as much as the Broncos performance, but a win is win, right?).

I was doing some tinkering with my system the other day and made an interesting discovery. I have my OTA antenna diplexed into the feed from my D* ODU. Another diplexer separates the feeds before they reach the back of my H20. My OTA reception isn't bad for some channels, but some others are miserable. When I disconnect the satellite cable from the H20, my OTA reception increases exponentially and I can easily get everything out there.

Is there anything short of removing the diplexers that I can do to fix this?

Now you understand why we "suggest" that you run seperate lines for DBS and OTA.....

What MAY help is to put a small amplifier between the OTA antenna and the first diplexer.

I was doing some tinkering with my system the other day and made an interesting discovery. I have my OTA antenna diplexed into the feed from my D* ODU. Another diplexer separates the feeds before they reach the back of my H20. My OTA reception isn't bad for some channels, but some others are miserable. When I disconnect the satellite cable from the H20, my OTA reception increases exponentially and I can easily get everything out there.

Is there anything short of removing the diplexers that I can do to fix this?


I am guessing that you are using the new 5 LNB dish (the AT9)? If this is the case then you need to realize that the new MPEG-4 stations are broadcast on the KA band. This band operates on a similar frequency to an ATSC/NTSC broadcast.

For this reason you will experience tons of reception issues if you diplex an antenna signal and the AT-9 signal. For this reason, DirecTV advises that you never diplex with the AT-9.

Checkout these installation videos for more information

http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/at9_install_videos.asp

-Matt

D'oh! :mad:

OK, maybe I should have considered this prior to signing the 12 month lease on my new place, but I think OTA reception from there might be a bit difficult to achieve. I used Google Earth (it has a measuring tool which not only allows you determine your distance from the two broadcast locations, but also your specific orientation :) ) to draw lines from the roof of the 2 story condo building to the top of both RP and to Lookout. Details can be seen here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lu_max/data/DTV.jpg
The upper line is to RP, the lower to Lookout. As you can see, a bunch of big buildings are blocking my LOS, but if I can thread the needle on the 2 high rises to the north while staying just south of the line of buildings blocking Lookout, I may just be able to pull this off. I have a Winegard PR4400 on the way which will be mounted to a non-penetrating roof mount and I will be using Belden 1694A for the wiring, so if it can work, this would most likely be my best shot (of course, I have not figured multi-path issues into the equation, but what are the chances that I may be affected by multipath? :rolleyes: ). If not, I guess I will have to go with Comcast <shudder>.

OTA Reception is Not always Line-of-sight. I do not have LOS to either LOM or RP. It's trial and error. Don't give up until you try... and don't forget to get some beer, it'll help!

OTA Reception is Not always Line-of-sight. I do not have LOS to either LOM or RP. It's trial and error. Don't give up until you try... and don't forget to get some beer, it'll help!
Jetlag
Ernie is absolutely right, LOS is not a requirement. I do not have it at my place either. I am blocked some by the horizon/Davidson Mesa, but the signal still gets there.

The Jeffco Commissioners are having an Open House in Evergreen on Sept 14th.

http://co.jefferson.co.us/news/news_item_np_T9_R297.htm

Commissioners Host Town Hall Meeting
Thursday, September 14, 2006
7:00 p.m. to 8:45 p.m.
Evergreen Lake House
29614 Upper Bear Creek Rd.
Evergreen

If you can, come out and join the JeffcoMajority (http://www.jeffcomajority.org) and let them know sCARE is out-of-control and we are the Majority!

Jetlag
Ernie is absolutely right, LOS is not a requirement. I do not have it at my place either. I am blocked some by the horizon/Davidson Mesa, but the signal still gets there.John and I are close to having LOS, though. The downtown skyscrapers are clearly visible from a hill behind our neighborhood, maybe 50-100 feet higher elevation.

OTOH, my sister in Georgia gets DTV reception pretty well with nothing even close to visual LOS. Of course they have high-power transmitters right in the middle of the city, with no one complaining about getting cancer.

oxothuk

multipath may even help you.

Reggie

I am new to this so please bare with me. I live in Johnstown (between Loveland and Greeley) and I was wondering what were my chances of receiving some digital channels, and what type of antenna I should try it with. I looked at the attennaweb site and it states that I should be able to pick up some channels but was hoping to get some advise from this forum. I guess I just don't want to shell out the money for an outdoor antenna if I'm only going to pick up one channel.

I would be grateful for any advice. Thanks

JetLag, consider yourself lucky that you have that choice. My building is wired for D* through Qwest, and it is not even capable of HD. I have to use a separate OTA tuner just to get the locals. I would love the opportunity to be gouged by Comcast just so I could get ESPN, HBO, etc in HD... (/end sob story)

I am new to this so please bare with me. I live in Johnstown (between Loveland and Greeley) and I was wondering what were my chances of receiving some digital channels, and what type of antenna I should try it with. I looked at the attennaweb site and it states that I should be able to pick up some channels but was hoping to get some advise from this forum. I guess I just don't want to shell out the money for an outdoor antenna if I'm only going to pick up one channel.

I would be grateful for any advice. Thanks
I think your chances are quite good. You will get at a min Channel 5 from Cheyenne and fox and Channel 2 (WB) Depending on your elevation you should get the republic building for 7 and 9 and possibly 4

read through the posting here too: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=199726&page=36&pp=20




Reggie

OTA Reception is Not always Line-of-sight. I do not have LOS to either LOM or RP. It's trial and error. Don't give up until you try... and don't forget to get some beer, it'll help!
Yes, but I'll take LOS over LOC or LOR anyday (c = concrete r = rock) :p

I am guessing that you are using the new 5 LNB dish (the AT9)?

Sorry for not explaining. I'm using the Phase III dish, not the AT9.

Yes, but I'll take LOS over LOC or LOR anyday (c = concrete r = rock) :p

...exactly. According to Google Earth, I'm only 6.57 miles from the transmitters on Lookout, but even with a roof-mounted CM 4228 I can't get a whiff of KDVR, which I believe is currently the strongest digital signal in town. It seems that eight hundred foot tall pile of dirt called Green Mountain in my LOS is blocking the signal.

No problem at all getting everything off Republic, various religious and Spanish station I couldn't care less about, and even digital Channel 12 off Squaw Mountain despite being a mile west of Kipling. When I started this oddysey a couple of years ago, I could actually get the digital 6, 9, and 12 signals with my *roof mounted FM antenna* that I hooked up just for laughs to see what would happen (though not all the time.)

While experimenting with the 4228 and a rotor last winter, I could actually get a better picture (snowy but watchable) from the analog signal for Fox 31 out of Ft. Collins than the analog signal from the transmitter on Lookout (completely unwatchable) less than seven miles away. Strange but true.

Hi, nice to be here. My OTA reception situation doesn't make sense to me so I thought I'd see if anyone here could shed light on it; I'd appreciate any input.

I live about a half mile south of Cherry Creek Reservoir; according to antennaweb I am 11.5 mi from Republic Plaza and 21.7 mi from Lookout Mountain. I just installed an indoor VHF/UHF antenna (non-amplified, 40" boom) in my attic, and I now get a great signal on all SD stations and all HD stations EXCEPT 2.1 and 4.1...

Here's what I don't get - if all stations are broadcasting at about the same power, why would I get some stations off of a transmitter and not another? For example, RP broadcasts 4.1, 6.1, 7.1 and 9.1 - I get all except 4.1. Likewise with LOM; I get everything coming off of it except 2.1. I can't imagine it being the direction because I've tried rotating the antenna with no luck. Any thoughts on what causes this, and more importantly, what I can do to pick up those last two channels? Thanks.

Welcome everest. I live near you on the SW side of the park right on the edge. I have a 80" CM Yagi on my roof. At the time years ago, I spent lots of time working to maximize the reception for KMGH. Anyway, now I get all stations at high signal strengths (HD Tivo) and it is still pointed slightly west of downtown. At the time, it was a matter of inches to get KMGH. I would suggest trying to move the antenna, even in the attic, to see if things improve. Or... put it on the roof. Your HOA can't stop you: federal law!

Good luck!

I agree with Dennis that you should try moving the antenna around as it sometimes is a matter of inches. The antenna may be in a dead spot for 2-1 and 4-1. My antenna is outside but when I first tried it a couple of years ago on the west side of the house, I couldn't pick up anything. I played with it for a day and found the east side of my house had great reception. I was one of the few that could pick up 7-1 off their coathanger transmitter before they moved to RP.

The only other thought I have is that 2-1 and 4-1 both transmit on higher frequencies (RF channels 34 and 35) than the other "major" channels you are apparently picking up. While 31-1 is on RF 32, your attic location may just be attenuating the frequencies above that enough to prevent reception of 2-1 and 4-1. You might want to see if you can get 50-1 (RF 51) or 53-1 (RF 46). You should be able to get these two channels. If you can't, I'd go outside with the antenna.

John and I are close to having LOS, though. The downtown skyscrapers are clearly visible from a hill behind our neighborhood, maybe 50-100 feet higher elevation.

OTOH, my sister in Georgia gets DTV reception pretty well with nothing even close to visual LOS. Of course they have high-power transmitters right in the middle of the city, with no one complaining about getting cancer.
You got it. I am farther west than you and have even less line of sight although you are right, from the top of Lookout hill you can see town. I think that is why Jetlag should get a signal. He is close to actually seeing it from what I can tell. There will likely be a lot of fringing signal traveling around the building. His more likely problem will not be signal strength but rather multipath if there are too many reflections. Usually a minor antenna tweak can fix that.

OT, but how many of you are planning on going to CEDIA?
The other question is whether or not the exhibitors in the convention center will be able to pick up RP signals for HD demos? How embarrassing to have a convention like this and not be able to get full strength HD signals for demos. All this brought to you by Jeffco, sCare and the beautiful city of Golden.
Ernie, we need some tee shirts to wear at CEDIA........ :mad:

I registered and hope to attend but I am on call during the entire event, keeping my fingers crossed.

(hmmm, I just noticed that my 1000th post is looming. I guess I'll have to come up with something good.)

keithsimp-

Any idea how the average Joe can attend CEDIA?

keithsimp-

Any idea how the average Joe can attend CEDIA?

Unfortunately you have to belong to CEDIA (big money), or register at the CEDIA website as a company with an affiliation to audio/video industry and pay a fee to attend. Early registration ended July 30th, that was $30 and now I believe it's $50 just for the exhibits. Dont' know about walking up and registering at the door.

I'm sure some people make up a company and attend this event, but they still pay.
I don't know of any other way, someone else might.
If nothing else you can get into the AVS party on Friday night.

I thought I saw something about walk up registration for the exhibits being $60 but don't quote me on that.

I figure there are three ways of getting in:

1) independent consultant

2) make up a company name

3) pretend to work for some other large company for a day

It's a bit like buying stuff at Grainger...

-Glen

I thought I saw something about walk up registration for the exhibits being $60 but don't quote me on that.

I figure there are three ways of getting in:

1) independent consultant

2) make up a company name

3) pretend to work for some other large company for a day

It's a bit like buying stuff at Grainger...

-Glen

Any way you got to pay.........................................

Getting some HD show on KTVD. From TitanTV, looks to be
Everybody Hates Chris. Picture quality looks pretty good. Slight pixelation every now and again.

Hi, nice to be here. My OTA reception situation doesn't make sense to me so I thought I'd see if anyone here could shed light on it; I'd appreciate any input.

I live about a half mile south of Cherry Creek Reservoir; according to antennaweb I am 11.5 mi from Republic Plaza and 21.7 mi from Lookout Mountain. I just installed an indoor VHF/UHF antenna (non-amplified, 40" boom) in my attic, and I now get a great signal on all SD stations and all HD stations EXCEPT 2.1 and 4.1...

Here's what I don't get - if all stations are broadcasting at about the same power, why would I get some stations off of a transmitter and not another? For example, RP broadcasts 4.1, 6.1, 7.1 and 9.1 - I get all except 4.1. Likewise with LOM; I get everything coming off of it except 2.1. I can't imagine it being the direction because I've tried rotating the antenna with no luck. Any thoughts on what causes this, and more importantly, what I can do to pick up those last two channels? Thanks.

I also suggest you try a little movement of your antenna first to get 2.1. They are actually the strongest signal around and that actually creates multi-path problems for attic antennas (i.e., so many strong signals bouncing around the attic that the receiver can't lock on to any given one). Finding just the right azimuth that keeps your existing signals and gets 2.1 should just take some trial and error ("a game of inches").

4.1 is a different story. They broadcast at about the same power as the other RP stations, but at a much higher frequency. As a result, they need more ERP to reach the same coverage area. You can try tweaking azimuths, but I doubt that will get you 4.1. At your distance from RP and with a small attic antenna, the only way you'll get 4.1 is with a pre-amp or move the antenna to the roof. If you go the pre-amp route, get a low-noise unit from Channel Master and not one of the Rat Shack ones.

Getting some HD show on KTVD. From TitanTV, looks to be
Everybody Hates Chris. Picture quality looks pretty good. Slight pixelation every now and again.

Watched some Veronica Mars in HD on KTVD-DT and it looked great! Kudos to the KUSA/KTVD engineers who got the system working. Too bad KTVD doesn't have Star Trek Enterprise now that they have HD.

Keith,
You can get the DenverDTV as well as the Boycott Golden T's at the Denverdtv.info site!

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Tshirt2.gif

Watched some Veronica Mars in HD on KTVD-DT and it looked great! Kudos to the KUSA/KTVD engineers who got the system working. Too bad KTVD doesn't have Star Trek Enterprise now that they have HD.

The system is working? When did that happen? I still have nothing from them.

It IS channel 19 right?? I haven't been trying to tune into a non-existent channel this whole time, have I?

The system is working? When did that happen? I still have nothing from them.

It IS channel 19 right?? I haven't been trying to tune into a non-existent channel this whole time, have I?

It's coming in on 19-1 remapped to 20-1 on my panny plasma. All shows that I watched tonight(Weds) were in HD. Picture quality was excellent now that I had some more time to observe. Sounds like Veronica Mars might have been HD last night as well, too bad I didn't turn the TV on.

Sounds like Veronica Mars might have been HD last night as well, too bad I didn't turn the TV on.

It is in HD every week :D

OK, I know that the Denver locals have to record the net feed on a server for playback an hour after it airs ET/CT (for those networks that don't have a MT feed). I just couldn't resist.

In case you didn't know it, UPN has been airing clean HD credits since the first Tuesday in August and from last week until the third season starts, it is also bug free. UPN/CBS is treating all HD viewers with a real treat as a going away present. At least I'm considering it a going away present.

WB HD programming is also bug free, though they are not putting out clean credits :mad:

Sounds like Veronica Mars might have been HD last night as well, too bad I didn't turn the TV on.

Oh, they are also airing two VM episodes, where the first one of the night was the second one that aired the week previous. So next week, you can catch the second episode as the first. So, you can see at least one of the two from this week. :)

I thought I saw something about walk up registration for the exhibits being $60 but don't quote me on that.

I figure there are three ways of getting in:

1) independent consultant

2) make up a company name

3) pretend to work for some other large company for a day

It's a bit like buying stuff at Grainger...

-GlenThe onsite rate for the trade show is $60 whether you are a CEDIA member or not.

Next year, for both CEDIA and CES in Las Vegas, just register online early enough and it's free. Of course, at both shows, there are seminars and classes over and above the trade show that are extra registration cost.

It is in HD every week :D

OK, I know that the Denver locals have to record the net feed on a server for playback an hour after it airs ET/CT (for those networks that don't have a MT feed). I just couldn't resist.

In case you didn't know it, UPN has been airing clean HD credits since the first Tuesday in August and from last week until the third season starts, it is also bug free. UPN/CBS is treating all HD viewers with a real treat as a going away present. At least I'm considering it a going away present.

WB HD programming is also bug free, though they are not putting out clean credits :mad:

This was the first time I had ever seen anything in HD from UPN. I had always wanted to see Enterprise and Veronica Mars in HD(never even seen VM in any format b4)


Oh, they are also airing two VM episodes, where the first one of the night was the second one that aired the week previous. So next week, you can catch the second episode as the first. So, you can see at least one of the two from this week.

On Sept 5th, KTVD 20 (http://www.ktvd.com/) will be changing affiliations to MyNetworkTV. We won't be watching VM in Denver. I guess eventually it will move over to the CW. Channel 20 will now have some HD shows called Desire and Fashion House running every night in primetime.

I'm glad that most of the regular season Broncos games are going to be broadcast in HD. Last night's OTA SD broadcast by KCNC on their digital channel was terrible. I did check the D* KCNC picture and it was even worse. Any shots showing the whole field actually hurt my eyes.

On Sept 5th, KTVD 20 (http://www.ktvd.com/) will be changing affiliations to MyNetworkTV. We won't be watching VM in Denver. I guess eventually it will move over to the CW. Channel 20 will now have some HD shows called Desire and Fashion House running every night in primetime.Can't you receive KWGN?

If you're not aware, UPN and WB merged to become "The CW," so new episodes of VM will be on 2-1 Tuesday nights at 8:00 PM, right after Gilmore Girls.

Who's going to attend the AVS Forum CEDIA party on the 15th? I'm planning on being there, and as most of us here in this thread are at least reasonably local, it's been awhile and I'd like to see some of you old-timers again, and meet some of the new faces that have joined in the last year or so!

Hadn't really given it much thought. Personallly I can't afford to go to CEDIA. No, it's not the $60 dollar (or whatever) entry fee. It's the fact that putting me in an environment around that much great ($$$) gear with a credit card in my pocket that isn't maxed out is a very dangerous thing while my son is in college...... :(

Do you have to be registered for CEDIA to attend? If not, that might encourage some more of us locals to attend? How much is it and where is it??

I don't think anybody's said it here, yet, but the SD PQ for the Broncos game via KCNC on Thursday was as bad as it gets.

KCNC's engineers should be ashamed of themselves. They have a gem of broadcasting rights for mid-summer each year, and they treat the games and their viewers just like so many sardines packed in a can. Heck, they don't even use the good oil for us sardines.

I hope the Broncos see the disgraceful PQ from Thursday and, when it comes time to renegotiate the TV rights to preseason games, go with KUSA. We know that Don Perez and his crew are always out there striving for better PQ. And their work at KTVD looks great.

Hadn't really given it much thought. Personallly I can't afford to go to CEDIA. No, it's not the $60 dollar (or whatever) entry fee. It's the fact that putting me in an environment around that much great ($$$) gear with a credit card in my pocket that isn't maxed out is a very dangerous thing while my son is in college...... :(

Do you have to be registered for CEDIA to attend? If not, that might encourage some more of us locals to attend? How much is it and where is it??


Same here. I have two kids in college and just bought them 2 laptops.

I am not even going to upgrade to a HR20 unless they give it to me for free. :(

I don't think anybody's said it here, yet, but the SD PQ for the Broncos game via KCNC on Thursday was as bad as it gets.
Well, what I said on Friday:

I'm glad that most of the regular season Broncos games are going to be broadcast in HD. Last night's OTA SD broadcast by KCNC on their digital channel was terrible. I did check the D* KCNC picture and it was even worse. Any shots showing the whole field actually hurt my eyes.

... where is it??

Is it at the Big Blue Bear Convention Center :D

According to this posting - CO is one of the early markets to get the HR20 from Directv:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=63201

Reggie

According to this posting - CO is one of the early markets to get the HR20 from Directv:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=63201

Reggie

I will just mention (since this is the OTA thread) that the OTA tuners on the HR20 are disabled.

Reggie,

You linked to the Chicago thread.

*edit* Never mind. I see the post that mentions Colorado.


And the OTA tuners are supposed to be activated next month.

I will just mention (since this is the OTA thread) that the OTA tuners on the HR20 are disabled.



Actually this is about Local HDs stations and the HR20 will allow recording of the Denver local HDs on D*.

Mike - the DVR will allow recording of the four local channels in HD in MPEG4 from D*. But yes the OTA functions have not been turned on yet - the good news is that the sensitivity of the tuners is suppose to be better than the HR10-250.



Reggie

According to this posting - CO is one of the early markets to get the HR20 from Directv:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=63201

Reggie
Has anyone here tried to order one yet?? I would like to make the jump from the H20, but don't want to buy in to a 'can of worms' if they don't work well. I have never owned a DVR, so I would like my first purchase to be a good one.

Has anyone here tried to order one yet?? I would like to make the jump from the H20, but don't want to buy in to a 'can of worms' if they don't work well. I have never owned a DVR, so I would like my first purchase to be a good one.
Then you might want to wait for the TiVo Series 3 (capable of OTA and CableCard tuning/recording). The best I've heard about the HR20 is that it's "almost" as good as a real TiVo. Or that it has "pretty much" all the functionality of a TiVo. Latest rumours have the Series 3 available mid-late September.

(And yes, the HR10-250 is horribly slow, but it's DVR functions work. When DirecTV finally rolls out version 6.3 of the software [pipe down, adam1115 ;) ] it should be drastically improved.)

Has anyone here tried to order one yet?? I would like to make the jump from the H20, but don't want to buy in to a 'can of worms' if they don't work well. I have never owned a DVR, so I would like my first purchase to be a good one.
I have not been disappointed in the postings so far for this DVR. Like any new product there are bugs but D* seems to be fixing them.

Check out the reviews (long postings) by Earl: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=61862

and it appears that some local Denver people have ordered it: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62384

Reggie

I have not been disappointed in the postings so far for this DVR. Like any new product there are bugs but D* seems to be fixing them.

Check out the reviews (long postings) by Earl: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=61862

and it appears that some local Denver people have ordered it: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62384

Reggie

I just tried to have my HR10-250 swapped out for the HR20. No luck. I was told by CR that outside of the LA market, bestbuy has an exclusive on them until 9/11, and that I could get one from bestbuy now. I said it sounds more like I'd be buying one, as opposed to just swapping it out - and she confirmed that.

I just tried to have my HR10-250 swapped out for the HR20. No luck. I was told by CR that outside of the LA market, bestbuy has an exclusive on them until 9/11, and that I could get one from bestbuy now. I said it sounds more like I'd be buying one, as opposed to just swapping it out - and she confirmed that.
Well It would makes sense to try again in the third week of Sept.

Well, what I said on Friday:

Hi Dennis. I must have missed it. You are quite right.

Same here. I have two kids in college and just bought them 2 laptops.

I am not even going to upgrade to a HR20 unless they give it to me for free. :(

Same here. 2 kids in college. No wonder you bought laptops. The laptops are cheaper than textbooks (over a g note, gone).

Don

I'm new to this forum and am looking for some antenna advice. We've been using rabbit ears on an old CRT and living with "snowy" TV (ouch!) We have a 37" LCD on the way and I'm trying to figure out what kind of antenna we need to get a clear picture from OTA SD signals and any HD signals we can as well as receive the OTA HD signals from the new Lookout Mtn tower if/when it ever gets built.

We live at 112th and Federal (80234) in a two-story home with plenty of attic space. Do we have to get an outdoor antenna or would an attic one work? Any suggestions on good manufacturers/models?

Any tips/adivce/suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

I'm new to this forum and am looking for some antenna advice. We've been using rabbit ears on an old CRT and living with "snowy" TV (ouch!) We have a 37" LCD on the way and I'm trying to figure out what kind of antenna we need to get a clear picture from OTA SD signals and any HD signals we can as well as receive the OTA HD signals from the new Lookout Mtn tower if/when it ever gets built.

We live at 112th and Federal (80234) in a two-story home with plenty of attic space. Do we have to get an outdoor antenna or would an attic one work? Any suggestions on good manufacturers/models?

Any tips/adivce/suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
You should have an excellent shot at DTV reception from that location, unless your house happens to be down in a hollow or something. Be aware that you MAY end up needing two different antennas (or a rotator if you mount outside) since the primary channels are at two very different compass orientations - CBS, NBC, PBS, old UPN are downtown Denver, FOX and WB are on Lookout Mountain overlooking Golden..

As for antennas, I am partial to the Channel Master 4228, which you can find online for about $50 + shipping; you may need to take it apart, however, to get it up into your attic.

Before you do any of that, though, just hook up your rabbit ears and see what comes in. There are also other set-top antennas (like Zenith Silver Sensor) which sometimes are sufficient for close-in locations like yours.

NoSnow,
Start small and work your way up (in effort, height and antenna) only if you have to. Try your rabbit ears first. It's a lot easier trying different orientations when your right in front of the TV. Try a RS antenna in the attic next with a temporary cable run. You can always return the RS antenna if an attic antenna location doesn't work.

Essentially, you have to try everything since orientation and location are so critical with the low-power signals. Your neighbor might get nothing and you might get everything with an antenna pointed in the (seemingly) wrong direction. It could be a game of inches with antenna pointing.

currently, all the DTV signals are UHF, analog is VHF. You'll need an antenna that gets both if you want both.

We live at 112th and Federal (80234) in a two-story home with plenty of attic space. Do we have to get an outdoor antenna or would an attic one work? Any suggestions on good manufacturers/models?

Any tips/adivce/suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

I have a friend who lives in that area, he can't get a whif of anything from republic because 112th is in a little valley in that area but he gets strong signals from Lookout.

But hey, it never hurts to try. Just make sure you are able to return any antenna you buy just in case.

Kurt

I am the board of our HOA. A law firm in Denver, Hindman Sanchez, represents most HOAs in the area. They just sent an email pointing to several articles. One of them was a discussion of the rules regarding satellite dishes and what HOAs can do and cannot do. While the article is accurate, it does not mention antennae used for getting OTA reception from local broadcasters with normal antennae and all of the rules (less than one meter) apply.

You might want to check it out and if any of you have HOAs give you any grief, point them to this article. That should shut them up. I was a little intrigued with the comment on painting a dish. Anybody heard of that one in real life??

Here is the article:

http://www.imakenews.com/ortenhindman/e_article000645581.cfm?x=b81rcTB,b3w7DvTT

Dennis - just to correct you - the 1 meter restriction applies ONLY to DBS dishes - there is no such limit on the size of OTA antennas - you can put up a 15foot long monster YAGI (yes, they DO make them that big) and as long as it is below 12 feet above the roofline (higher if approved), the HOA / government unit can't do diddly squat about it.

I was a little intrigued with the comment on painting a dish. Anybody heard of that one in real life??
Yep, my HOA made an attempt at this one after they lost the "no antenna" rule. It was the only time that a quorum actually attended an open meeting to vote them down.

Can't you receive KWGN?

If you're not aware, UPN and WB merged to become "The CW," so new episodes of VM will be on 2-1 Tuesday nights at 8:00 PM, right after Gilmore Girls.

I receive 2-1 just fine. My point was that we would not be watching VM until the switch over on Oct 3rd. I was responding to the following post:

Oh, they are also airing two VM episodes, where the first one of the night was the second one that aired the week previous. So next week, you can catch the second episode as the first. So, you can see at least one of the two from this week. :)

This was the first time I had ever seen anything in HD from UPN. I had always wanted to see Enterprise and Veronica Mars in HD(never even seen VM in any format b4)

There is this fancy medium called DVD. :) VM is available that way. You wouldn't be wasting your money getting sets of the seasons, so that you can get caught up before season three hits the airwaves.

On Sept 5th, KTVD 20 (http://www.ktvd.com/) will be changing affiliations to MyNetworkTV. We won't be watching VM in Denver. I guess eventually it will move over to the CW. Channel 20 will now have some HD shows called Desire and Fashion House running every night in primetime.

Ya, a few stations have been forced to vacate The WB or UPN early. Fox's MNTV is not grabbing my eyeballs at all. Besides, in my location it is only available via cable or CBS affiliate SD digital. Just read in the trades that Fox was expecting something like $50mill in ad $$$$ and so far have only gotten around $20mill. Also, no overnight ratings, etc. Because Fox is selling it as a strip, ratings for the week will not be available until the following week Thursday.

Dennis - just to correct you - the 1 meter restriction applies ONLY to DBS dishes - there is no such limit on the size of OTA antennas - you can put up a 15 foot long monster YAGI (yes, they DO make them that big) and as long as it is below 12 feet above the roofline (higher if approved), the HOA / government unit can't do diddly squat about it.

Just to further clarify, the reference to 12 feet above roofline does not invoke any kind of approval process nor is it any kind of limit on how high an antenna may be. I've seen way too many posts all over Avs threads claiming this. All it means is that above 12 feet, local building codes MAY kick in that require guy wires, etc.

As I mentioned before, Microsoft is doing a tour of the country showing of HD DVD. It looks like the Denver stop will be coinciding with CEDIA.

Here's the info on registering:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=719076

BTW, any non-industry people figure out the best way to get into CEDIA?

There is this fancy medium called DVD. :) VM is available that way. You wouldn't be wasting your money getting sets of the seasons, so that you can get caught up before season three hits the airwaves.



Yeah, this is a good way to do it. I had to go this route with Smallville. Only problem is that the picture is way better in HD when compared to the DVD!

Republishing an article from HDTV Magazine... of special interest is the plan to convert all 18 CBS owned-and-operated stations' news to HD within the next 18 months. That means KCNC needs to invest in lots of face spackle quickly.

--

When Is Network News Coming In HDTV?
By Dale Cripps on September 6, 2006

HDTV Magazine -- Alsea, Oregon, September 6, 2006---

Katie Couric, the $15 million a year news anchor, did her best last night to earn her keep and launch a new era in CBS network news. The reviews for the highly anticipated effort have been decidedly mixed. But how, I ask, could a new era in network news be declared without the addition of HDTV? Why didn't CBS add HDTV to their network news at this most auspicious time?

"My goal," said CBS's Vice President, Advanced Technology/Engineering, Robert Seidel to HDTV Magazine, "has always been to make the capital investments which produce HD programs that will be viewed by the largest audience. That is why we converted prime time first (80% of our viewer during a 24 hour day), followed by sports, then daytime (The Young & The Restless), then late night (Letterman). Now we are working on syndication and local news.

"Network News," explained Mr. Seidel, "is on the multi-year capital plan. But I always ask how many hours of HD will we get for this investment? The Evening News is 22 minutes in duration (after you subtract the commercials and Promos). When you focus on those 22 minutes, 75% is from the field and 25% comes from the studio. If we are going to convert the Network News to HD we need to convert all of our 8 news bureaus in the U.S. as well as (those) in Moscow, London, Paris, Israel, Tokyo, Peking, Mexico City and 200 stringers--all for 16 minutes of HD video! We will get there, but right now I am focusing on converting the local newscasts, which account for 6-8 hours per day."


Seidel did point to some good news on the immediate horizon: "CBS is currently rolling out Sony XDCAM-HD at all 18 Owned and Operated stations over the next 18 months. They are also in the process of converting all the microwave links to digital and HD as part of the Nextel project. HD at the local stations is well on the way to happening in the next few months. Our stations in L.A., Chicago, and Philly are constructing new buildings that will be totally HD. No SD will be installed."

And mark your calendars folks to catch CBS's newest addition in HDTV -- "Wheel of Fortune" and "Jeopardy" -- starting 9/11/06.

Dale Cripps

Yeah, this is a good way to do it. I had to go this route with Smallville. Only problem is that the picture is way better in HD when compared to the DVD!I don't know about that; some of the HD broadcasts I've seen have looked much worse than any DVD (especially when there's a screwup at the station and we get no audio or entire missing program segments.) :eek:

Hadn't really given it much thought. Personallly I can't afford to go to CEDIA. No, it's not the $60 dollar (or whatever) entry fee. It's the fact that putting me in an environment around that much great ($$$) gear with a credit card in my pocket that isn't maxed out is a very dangerous thing while my son is in college...... :(

Do you have to be registered for CEDIA to attend? If not, that might encourage some more of us locals to attend? How much is it and where is it??

You don't have to be going to CEDIA to attend Dave's AVS party. The info is in the very large announcement at the top of each forum. No charge. :)

(For the very lazy, here's the link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/announcement.php?f=45&announcementid=95 )

that's like comparing a scratched dvd to a working vhs tape. of course in that case the vhs tape is better, since the dvd is unwatchable.

in full working state, HDTV is always better than DVD picture-quality wise.

You don't have to be going to CEDIA to attend Dave's AVS party. The info is in the very large announcement at the top of each forum. No charge. :)

(For the very lazy, here's the link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/announcement.php?f=45&announcementid=95 )

So, you just HAD to imply that I am very lazy. Actually, I saw the sticky after I made the comment, I was just too lazy to go change my post.
:D

I will have to give going some consideration. Is there any place to park down there on a Friday night?? Don't get to the 'big city' very often except for Bronco and Avs games, and the parking is supplied with the tickets......

Anyone else here signed up????

Have you guys seen this post: from the "Hot off the press" thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8378697&&#post8378697).

This caught my eye:
New orders for Grass Valley’s HD news production gear have come from [other stations in the country] and ABC affiliate KMGH Denver
Could KMGH have HD news before KCNC? In any case, since we know KCNC should have HD news in the next year or so, we could have all 3 major networks' local newscasts in HD soon.

Have you guys seen this post: from the "Hot off the press" thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8378697&&#post8378697).

This caught my eye:

Could KMGH have HD news before KCNC? In any case, since we know KCNC should have HD news in the next year or so, we could have all 3 major networks' local newscasts in HD soon.

Well, since the local nets haven't had to spend any money building towers, buying new transmitters and paying for electricity for both NTSC and ATSC tranmissions, I would think there should be a 'small pool of funds' available to buy some HD cameras for the studios, but that's just my opinion, YMMV.
:mad:

BTW, any non-industry people figure out the best way to get into CEDIA?


Well since CEDIA's ultimate goal is to pimp out CI's may I suggest wearing high heels and a miniskirt?

Repeating "love you long time" over and over again while trying to enter may also help.

So, you just HAD to imply that I am very lazy. Actually, I saw the sticky after I made the comment, I was just too lazy to go change my post.
:D

I will have to give going some consideration. Is there any place to park down there on a Friday night?? Don't get to the 'big city' very often except for Bronco and Avs games, and the parking is supplied with the tickets......

Anyone else here signed up????

I'm going to ride the light rail in from the south to avoid parking hassles. You could always park in the theater complex garage, but you'll end up paying $8 or $9 for it (I think anyways - been a couple of years since I parked there).

Well, since the local nets haven't had to spend any money building towers, buying new transmitters and paying for electricity for both NTSC and ATSC tranmissions, I would think there should be a 'small pool of funds' available to buy some HD cameras for the studios, but that's just my opinion, YMMV.
:mad:

Don't complain too much about not having every newscast in HD. New York -- the #1 TV market -- still does not have local news in HD. WNBC just anounced this week they will become the first. This from a market that's had full power DTV for nearly a decade. Story at: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/449968p-378728c.html

Our locals have had to spend their funds on legal fees fighting to just get a tower built.

Don't complain too much about not having every newscast in HD. New York -- the #1 TV market -- still does not have local news in HD. WNBC just anounced this week they will become the first. This from a market that's had full power DTV for nearly a decade. Story at: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/449968p-378728c.html

Our locals have had to spend their funds on legal fees fighting to just get a tower built.
NYC lost all their antennas on 911 if I remember correctly. I think they struggled to get back on the air first and had to worry about HD later

Reggie

I'm going to ride the light rail in from the south to avoid parking hassles. You could always park in the theater complex garage, but you'll end up paying $8 or $9 for it (I think anyways - been a couple of years since I parked there).

I'm with you Mark. I'll be riding the light rail down Friday to CEDIA and then home again after the party. Sounds like there are some other events going on at the complex so parking could be tight.

Early last spring I bought an hdtv and put a Radio Shack Yagi in the attic. I was able to receive all of the major local channels at that time. (I live in Lone Tree)

Towards the end of the TV season the reception of Fox started breaking up. Finally it wouldnt tune it at all. I have 2 big trees in front of my house, I attributed the weaker signal to the trees leafing out and the heating of the atmosphere for summer.

I bought a channel master 7775 UHF amplifier and installed it last night expecting it to help with the reception of Fox. No such luck. ( I want to watch Prison Break in HD! )

Its very strange and was hoping someone here could explain to me why this is happening.
KWGN and KTVD both come in at 100% signal strength, and Fox shows up like it has no signal at all. According to antenna web, these stations all broadcast from the same place.

Any ideas?

Thanks

av,

Low-power OTA reception is a game-of-inches. (I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've said that) Most likely, if you move your antenna a few inches, you will get FOX back.

I bought a channel master 7775 UHF amplifier and installed it last night expecting it to help with the reception of Fox. No such luck. ( I want to watch Prison Break in HD! )
Did you mast mount the preamp(ie. as close as possible to the antenna)?

You may need to just tweak your antenna.
....jc

I didnt move it around when I was up there because when I mounted it I positioned it so that I could get the best reception on all channels. However, since I am recieving the other channels so strong now with the amp, I will head up and give it a shot.

Did you mast mount the preamp(ie. as close as possible to the antenna)?

You may need to just tweak your antenna.
....jc

Yeah, there is about 8 inches of cable between the antenna and the preamp.

I lost KDVR about the same time you did, actually. I think they did something to their transmitter. But I was able to get it back by rotating my antenna about an inch (Ernie isn't lying) to the west.

KRDO down in the Springs doesn't come in as reliably as it used to now. But they're an ABC affiliate, and I have KMGH for that, so no big loss.

KDVR still doesn't come in as good as it used to though. For me, their signal has been at 100% for the past three years, and now suddenly it's at 70%-75%, and it breaks up very occasionally. Very odd.

I lost KDVR about the same time you did, actually. I think they did something to their transmitter. But I was able to get it back by rotating my antenna about an inch (Ernie isn't lying) to the west.

KRDO down in the Springs doesn't come in as reliably as it used to now. But they're an ABC affiliate, and I have KMGH for that, so no big loss.

KDVR still doesn't come in as good as it used to though. For me, their signal has been at 100% for the past three years, and now suddenly it's at 70%-75%, and it breaks up very occasionally. Very odd.

Strangely, the antenna was pointing almost directly at KDVR before, and after rotating to point more northerly, I am able to pick it up. So now the antenna is pointing more towards KRMA and now I cant pick them up! I can't win. I think I will move the antenna outside at some point.

I think I will move the antenna outside at some point.
Before you go to the major hassle of moving your antenna outdoors, you might try a better antenna. Channel Master 4228 or 4248 (3023), for example. You could also try a bigger RS first because they will take anything back. In my case, my 4248 on my roof is aimed somewhere between Lookout and RP and I get all stations. In Lone Tree, you should be able to get them all with a little effort even if your trees are blocking LOS.

You are yet one more example of our pitiful OTA digital situation here in Denver. People in other cities probably have a lot more time to actually watch TV or, better yet, do something outdoors in nice weather.

Also, since Fox is our strongest DTV station, you might just try some rabbit ears by your TV. Experiment with moving them around. I know I can get KDVR-DT with some cheap rabbit ears at the TV.

The following article is published on the top front page of today's Boulder Daily Camera: http://www.dailycamera.com/bdc/county_news/article/0,1713,BDC_2423_4983462,00.html

Its not terribly informative to people who read this thread.

The following article is published on the top front page of today's Boulder Daily Camera: http://www.dailycamera.com/bdc/county_news/article/0,1713,BDC_2423_4983462,00.html

Its not terribly informative to people who read this thread.Not sure how sCARE came up with their 9MW vs 732KW figure. Are they counting both digital and analog for the period from now to 2009 (as if - there is barely enough time to bring the new tower online before 2009). Are they trying to make hay out of the higher power levels for UHF frequencies, even though KMGH and KUSA now plan to keep their old VHF frequencies?

Or are they just making **** up as usual.

Posting this announcement to the group. PLAN Jeffco is one of the groups opposted to the digital TV Supertower. It's probably not a bad idea to go there and ask a question or two. A show of force would be ideal.

---

PLAN Jeffco, CINQ, and other groups are sponsoring a Candidate Forum on September 25th. There have been some slight changes from the cover page of the last PLAN Jeffco newsletter. The latest changes are incorporated in the invitation that follows. Updates will be posted on the PLAN Jeffco website, planjeffco.org or saveopenspace.org.

Please forward this invitation to your friends. We feel that this will be an excellent opportunity to learn about the candidates.

SAVE SEPTEMBER 25TH

PLAN Jeffco and CINQ are having a Candidate Forum

THIS IS YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO ASK ABOUT YOUR ISSUES

Time: 6:00 to 9:30 p.m.

Where: American Mountaineering Center

710 10th Street, Golden

Schedule: 6:00 to 7:00 "Meet and Greet", all US House, Jeffco Legislative, and Commissioner Candidates invited - tables for literature will be provided

7:00 to 8:00 Candidates for Governor

Beauprez (invited)

Ritter (invited)

8:00 to 8:45 Candidates for U S House District 7

Perlmutter confirmed)

O’Donnell (confirmed)

8:45 to 9:30 Candidates for County Commissioner

Hartman (confirmed)

Auburn (confirmed)

Moderator: Margot Zallen

Format: For the first half the candidates will be questioned by a panel regarding:

I-70 West of Golden

Beltway

C-470 toll lanes

Public transportation

For the second half, written questions on any issue will be accepted from the audience.

Check the PLAN Jeffco website, www.planjeffco.org, for updates on participant confirmation any changes in the timing of the forum.

All candidates have been sent an eight-question questionnaire relating to transportation issues in Jefferson County. Check the PLAN Jeffco website, www.planjeffco.org, for their responses.

Co-sponsors for the forum at press time include: PLAN Jeffco, Citizens Involved in the Northwest Quadrant (CINQ), Friends of the Foothills, Canyon Area Residents for the Environment (CARE), Citizens for Lakewood’s Future, Communities United and COHOPE.

Not sure how sCARE came up with their 9MW vs 732KW figure. Are they counting both digital and analog for the period from now to 2009 (as if - there is barely enough time to bring the new tower online before 2009).
Yes. They are including 5,000kW for analog KTVD.
Or are they just making **** up as usual.
Yup, they(as usual) are trying to make things look worse than they are or will be.
....jc

It may be time for a little heat on CBS and KCNC for their poor HDTV performance during live sporting events this weekend.

First, on both the US Open tennis Saturday and the Bronco game Sunday, they were unable to properly manage the DD 5.1 signal. During the Open, I'd frequently have to turn up the volume as the signal strength of the live broadcast decreased during the broadcast(only to return with a deafening roar during the taped commercials, which were not in DD 5.1). Then the awful promotionals during the actual game broadcast. Right in the middle of a long rally they would inject a promo in SD. The HD widescreen would suddenly shrink to 4X3 for the promo, then return to 16X9 HD after the promo. How bush league can they get. If they must run the promos, at least they should do so w/o affecting their HD broadcast of a live, competitive event.

But, the Bronco game was even worse (I mean the broadcast; the game was bad enough on its own), at least for sound. Every time they returned from a studio update, they lost their DD 5.1 stream for several minutes. Eventually it would return, but it was very annoying (almost as annoying as the Broncos offensive effort).

Surely I'm not the only one who noticed these problems. Are they a local or network issue? If KCNC wants to be taken seriously in DTV, they need to get their act together. For now, they are well behind Fox, KUSA, and KMGH.

On another note, did anyone notice the small pixalization that occurred around Andy Roddick's racket on his hardest/fastest serves? Is that a product of the 1080i broadcast not being capable of handling that fast a movement?

Just in case this is the big moment you've been waiting for, Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune, are supposed to be going high-def tonight. Enjoy! :-)

I noticed the change on the Broncos game when returning from the studio, but it was only a second or two, not minutes. Annoying and noticeable, but I didn't think it was a big deal. This has to be the network feed, not KCNC.

On a sort of positive, the color was very saturated, almost too much so. Shanahan's normally sunburned red face was really red, almost orange.

Is it just me or does football HD from Fox look better than HD from CBS? I was switching back and forth between the two Sunday (of course I had to use cheyenne CBS for the bronco game)

Reggie

Is it just me or does football HD from Fox look better than HD from CBS? I was switching back and forth between the two Sunday (of course I had to use cheyenne CBS for the bronco game)

Reggie

Actually, I thought just the opposite. Last year, the Fox football broadcasts were outstanding but yesterday I thought it was very soft. I agree, though, with the other poster that the Broncos game was very color saturated and Shanahan looked very reddish/orangish. I was going to do some on-the-fly color adjustments but then thought that maybe he really was that red given the performance of the offense! :)

Has anyone noticed ch.9's news HD broadcast is softer or not as sharp since yesterday?

KMGH continues to be a HD "leader".

No HD Jeopardy tonight (I'm assuming no HD Wheel, either) :(

KMGH continues to be a HD "leader".

No HD Jeopardy tonight (I'm assuming no HD Wheel, either) :(

Other than being in HD, I don't think you are really missing much. The station that has both shows in my market isn't airing them in HD either.

I've only seen the first half of Wendnesday show, not having the time to watch the rest of it, as the computer was busy doing other stuff. I never even bothered to capture Wheel, though I probably should, just to see how it looks.

As for Jeopardy, it is saddled with having to shoot safe 4:3. This results in the answer board having to be 4:3 and their using side panels to fill in the 16:9 screen. Shooting the three contestants results in the letterbox/pillar box effect. By this I mean there is blank stage area on the left and right sides of the contestants, which causes more space on the top and bottom. If they were to really frame the contestants for 16:9, it would look so much better.

Too bad they can't shoot 16:9 and letterbox the 4:3 SD version. But, I can just hear the 4:3 viewers bitching at the lack of a full image on their screen. I know, several shows are letterboxed, so the viewers should be used to it, but the complaints never seem to go away.

While I applaud Sony for converting these two shows to HD, it is unfortunate that they have to shoot 4:3 safety.

We shoot all of our news in 16:9, and the LDS Church does all their stuff (like "Music and the Spoken Word") in 16:9 HDTV. Both are broadcast in 14:9 Letterbox on the SDTV feeds.

People will get used to it.

The lead editorial from today's Boulder Daily Camera is a follow up comment to yesterdays article.

Daily Camera Editorial Comment (http://bouldercamera.com/bdc/editorials/article/0,1713,BDC_2489_4985388,00.html)

Actually, I thought just the opposite. Last year, the Fox football broadcasts were outstanding but yesterday I thought it was very soft. I agree, though, with the other poster that the Broncos game was very color saturated and Shanahan looked very reddish/orangish. I was going to do some on-the-fly color adjustments but then thought that maybe he really was that red given the performance of the offense! :)

I'm with A4Short, Fox has much better HD color saturation and general sharpness than KCNC (better PQ)s. In fact, any time I want to impress folks with HD on a live sporting event, I'll show them Fox or KMGH or even KUSA before KCNC. Their HD broadcast have always been soft and more color muted than any of the others. That's been true for past year at least.

BTW, the foregoing is true whether I use my Dish 811 receiver or my LS LST-4200A receiver. The former I have set for 1080i and the latter for 720p. My HDTV is 720p native.

The lead editorial from today's Boulder Daily Camera is a follow up comment to yesterdays article.

Daily Camera Editorial Comment (http://bouldercamera.com/bdc/editorials/article/0,1713,BDC_2489_4985388,00.html)
I think this is one of the signs of the apocolypse - someone in Boulder making a sound, rational decision :p

Is it just me or does football HD from Fox look better than HD from CBS? I was switching back and forth between the two Sunday (of course I had to use cheyenne CBS for the bronco game)

ReggieI still find the CBS broadcasts to be the sharpest (on my 1080i TV). But I like the changes which all the networks have made this year to reduce the size of overlay clutter; I see the most improvement of Fox, since they had the most clutter to begin with. I also feel like the networks are framing the camera shots better for 16:9 presentation than in previous years.

Well I just spoke to an engineer at channel 7 and she did indicate that they were working on getting the equipment to broadcast the game shows in HD, but she also said that they’re waiting on a “corporate” decision as when to get the equipment. So I bet it will be several months.

I think this is one of the signs of the apocolypse - someone in Boulder making a sound, rational decision :pI thought the editorial was pretty funny! They agreed that the community as a whole was more important than the few. But, of course they reminded everyone that Eldorado was off the list. I bet their tune would be quite different if Eldorado was the proposed site!

----------------

And I bet 7 is holding off as the syndicated game shows will be sent on 1080i HD-Cam tapes. And 7 is a 720p house. HD studio decks are damn expensive (About $50K) and if you aren't going to get a lot of use out of it, tough to justify the cost.

So I bet it will be several months.I bet it will be years! :confused:

I'm with A4Short, Fox has much better HD color saturation and general sharpness than KCNC (better PQ)s. In fact, any time I want to impress folks with HD on a live sporting event, I'll show them Fox or KMGH or even KUSA before KCNC. Their HD broadcast have always been soft and more color muted than any of the others. That's been true for past year at least.

BTW, the foregoing is true whether I use my Dish 811 receiver or my LS LST-4200A receiver. The former I have set for 1080i and the latter for 720p. My HDTV is 720p native.

I would agree with everything you've said until last Sunday. The Fox broadcast was not as good as last years

I thought the editorial was pretty funny! They agreed that the community as a whole was more important than the few. But, of course they reminded everyone that Eldorado was off the list. I bet their tune would be quite different if Eldorado was the proposed site!


Hey, stop picking on Boulder! Some of us are very happy to live here.......even in spite of the local DA.

:cool:

What a shame that ABC had "The Path To 9/11" in SD instead of HD the past two nights. They had some great location shots that would have been spectacular in HD. Maybe the producers were limited because of the use of actual film footage interspersed throughout the docudrama. I'm getting spoiled, I expect everything in prime time to be HD now!

Hey, stop picking on Boulder! Some of us are very happy to live here.......even in spite of the local DA....and prairie dog wars, pet guardian laws, etc.

I couldn't help noticing that Camera editors, after a great start, couldn't bring themselves to tell Jeffco to just approve the damn towers. They merely said they should "resolve the issue".

Here is the official response I received from Mickey Petty @ ch.7

Thank you for the email about Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy in
High Definition. We are not yet able to deliver that signal to you in
HD - we hope to do so early in 2007.

Feel free to write again - and thank you again for writing.

Didn't they know about this? I would think they would be ready to roll. Oh well.

Quoting the editorial here:

"In this day of satellite and cable, the very idea of free broadcasting may seem anachronistic. It isn't. Broadcasters estimate that one in five homes relies solely on free transmissions, and almost half of all homes have at least one TV set that receives only over-the-air signals."

Now my rant:

Didn't the broadcasters and TV manufacturers drive everybody to cable and satellite in the first place? The broadcasters used a modulation technique (NTSC) that was plaqued with picture problems. People moved to cable because it was the only way to get a decent signal. The TV manufacturers then responded by replacing tuners optimized for OTA reception with cable-ready tuners optimized for cable reception thus re-enforcing the exodus to cable.

After viewers have spent decades associating OTA reception with low-quality pictures, the broadcasters and TV manufacturers are going to have a very hard time winning back viewers and convincing them that the OTA ATSC signal can be BETTER than what is available from the cable and satellite companies.

In other words, the broadcasters need to start educating their viewers that there's no need for cable once the tower is built if all you want to do is watch the big broadcast networks. You have no idea how many of my friends are completely blown away when I hook a piece of wire to their HD sets antenna inputs and the pictures come to life noise free. They had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA a picture that great was even possible over the air.

I could see people starting to demand the tower get built if they thought they could watch <whatever it is they're watching nowadays> with out having to pay the cable company $80/month. And this isn't just about HDTV. You can get a standard def tube TV with an off-air digital tuner for < $300 now that will deliver a crisp, noise and ghost free pciture using a pair of rabbit ears (after the tower is built).

End of rant.

-Glen

Didn't the broadcasters and TV manufacturers drive everybody to cable and satellite in the first place? The broadcasters used a modulation technique (NTSC) that was plaqued with picture problems. People moved to cable because it was the only way to get a decent signal. The TV manufacturers then responded by replacing tuners optimized for OTA reception with cable-ready tuners optimized for cable reception thus re-enforcing the exodus to cable.Well, NTSC was pretty high-tech back in the day (1945 or so). The engineers did manage to develop an upgrade path for color but after that it was pretty clear that further improvements would require a new standard that would not be upward compatible; however, that did not stop the CE manufacturers from improving tuners that overcame many NTSC defects. And it was also clear that any new standard would need a quantum jump in quality in order to justify its adoption - which is why "high definition" was widely discussed as the wave of the future in tech magazines for a good 15 years before ATSC was adopted. I bought a 35" SDTV in 1992 after 5 years waiting for HD to come around the corner, and that set was near end-of-life when I got my HDTV.

Judged against the cost and hassle of optimizing antenna setup, $15 per month for basic (broadcast-only) cable is not a bad deal for most people. Of course that's just the teaser to get you in the door to buy the whole "expanded basic" package for $50 per month - but for the 90 million customers who see value in that, who am I to judge?

In reality, there isn't much reason for the broacasters to spend much energy promoting OTA reception. Broadcasters do not pay the cable companies - any considerations go the other way. Most OTA households are low-income and not as valuable to advertisers - cheapskate HD enthusiasts like me are a tiny minority. And I suspect that most of those "50% of sets not connected to cable" are dedicated game or video-watching sets where the antenna is never used. The primary value of OTA to broadcasters is its legacy status in regulations - it is the way they stake out their turf and sets the terms for their negotiations with the cable/satellite companies.

I think it also varies by market. I am sitting in Peoria IL right now and every one of my friends who lives here has an OTA antenna on their roof! They actually have been using them for SD. Now that this town has full-power OTA (except CBS is scheduled for this week) they are living large with OTA DTV. Some markets aren't 20% OTA, I would say Peoria is about 30-40%.

And the stations are using their own towers, which by the way, are all located in full residential neighborhoods. In fact, my old TV station where I worked, has their physical building located directly under the tower.

Ernie,

Interesting about Peoria. All of their stations have been UHF since day one. Antennas on the rooftops have been a normal site since TV started there in the 50"s.

Many folks had monster antennas to pull in Chicago before Peoria had local TV.

I grew up there and remember watching WMBD - 31 sign on the air at midnight January 1, 1958!! Is that the station you worked at?

I must be getting old. :(

We shoot all of our news in 16:9, and the LDS Church does all their stuff (like "Music and the Spoken Word") in 16:9 HDTV. Both are broadcast in 14:9 Letterbox on the SDTV feeds.

People will get used to it.

That brings up a question I have wondered about since the begining. Why is letterboxed SD 14:9?? When it is zoomed I lose a little off the top and bottom, not enough to worry about and definitly not enough to want to watch a pillarboxed presentation of a letterboxed show, but still?? How hard would it be to letterbox at 16:9??

Didn't the broadcasters and TV manufacturers drive everybody to cable and satellite in the first place? The broadcasters used a modulation technique (NTSC) that was plaqued with picture problems. People moved to cable because it was the only way to get a decent signal. The TV manufacturers then responded by replacing tuners optimized for OTA reception with cable-ready tuners optimized for cable reception thus re-enforcing the exodus to cable.

Excuse me, but initially cable also was NTSC, the ONLY broadcast standard that existed (still is the only method used in some places). Going to cable did not always mean a better signal. Many in my area complained about the quality of the video. I had cable for many years, before putting in my C-Band BUD. Cable was not glitch free, or perfect.

Cable was the only way to get channels like HBO, Showtime, MTV, etc.

Nope, broadcasters didn't drive viewers to cable.

That brings up a question I have wondered about since the begining. Why is letterboxed SD 14:9?? When it is zoomed I lose a little off the top and bottom, not enough to worry about and definitly not enough to want to watch a pillarboxed presentation of a letterboxed show, but still?? How hard would it be to letterbox at 16:9??

Would you believe that 14:9 is a compromise between full center-cut 4:3 or full 16:9 letterbox? It is the norm in the U.K. for analog OTA broadcasts. It is interesting that a station in the states adopted that idea.

Would you believe that 14:9 is a compromise between full center-cut 4:3 or full 16:9 letterbox? It is the norm in the U.K. for analog OTA broadcasts. It is interesting that a station in the states adopted that idea.It's also stupid, IMHO; for people who actually have 16:9 TVs there's no way to do anything with a 14:9 signal except display it in 4:3 mode without losing content. :eek:

Phil,

I worked at WRAU19ABC for a year and then WEEK25NBC for about 4 years as their Production Manager. I went out to the the station on Monday to say hello. Things change, but stay the same. WEEK now runs both NBC and UPN out their building (sound familier?) Both in full-power HD. Oh... Mac says Hi. ;)

Lastly, they didn't have one HD deck or HD server in house! They just passed the net signals, so, no syndicated HD playbacks of 'Wheel' for them.

It's not liberals on the Golden City Council blocking your precious towers, pal..I wasn't trying to say there were, I was merely echoing John's point that it's great to live in Boulder notwithstanding the craziness that goes on. Sorry if I rubbed a nerve.

Cable was the only way to get channels like HBO, Showtime, MTV, etc.

Of course, that was back in the day when HBO and Showtime played first-run movies and MTV actually played music! :)

Seems like Boulder has finally caught on to the topic. Oh well, better late than never I suppose.

About half way down the page in the letters to the editor this morning.

Boulder Camera 9/13/06 Letters to the editor (http://bouldercamera.com/bdc/letters_to_editor/article/0,1713,BDC_2491_4987725,00.html)

Hey everyone
It Looks like the TODAY SHOW is finally HD as of this morning. Looks pretty good on the SONY XBR OTA.

That's too bad that KMGH isn't able to show Jeopardy or WOF in HD. I was anxiously waiting on Monday to see the first broadcast in HD, and was disappointed when it came on. Trebek even made a joke about it. I said to my girlfriend, "I bet the guys on the forum are already talking about it, and someone will be contacting the station soon." Sure enough! I'll go ahead and send them a comment too, just to let them know I'm waiting...

EDIT: I did also notice the Today Show this morning. You're right, it did look pretty good!

Excuse me, but initially cable also was NTSC, the ONLY broadcast standard that existed (still is the only method used in some places). Going to cable did not always mean a better signal. Many in my area complained about the quality of the video. I had cable for many years, before putting in my C-Band BUD. Cable was not glitch free, or perfect.

Cable was the only way to get channels like HBO, Showtime, MTV, etc.

Nope, broadcasters didn't drive viewers to cable.

It is true that many analog cable signals in the 80s were of poor quality, though still better than the OTA alternative. In the early days of cable, many cable providers didn't have a direct feed from the broadcasters and were merely transmitting a signal that they picked up OTA. However, it was still signal quality that drove folks to cable, not their offerings. In fact, HBO started out as an OTA signal, encrypted of course.

What is sad is that a small group of folks in the 70s and 80s were actually working on technology to deal with the biggest issue in analog OTA TV, ghosts. Several technologies were developed, but never widely adopted because of cable and satellite competition. Since they required changes in TV tuners as well as the broadcast signal, the CEMs needed to change their products. Well nobody in the CEMs thought that changes for OTA could compete with "cable ready", and few TVs were ever produced that could use the technology where it was available. Purchased as a separate receiver, the technology was too expensive for the average consumer.

So, the broadcasters, CEMs, and cable were all a part of the demise of OTA TV popularity. But in some markets, like Taylorville, Illinois were my folks lived until there passing, OTA was the only way to get TV from different locations, 30, 30, and 75 miles away. It was the weak 75 mile signal that caused them to jump on cable when it was finally offered in the early 90s.

Carl B.

Well I am back to getting OTA HD in Denver. I lost most of them when I swapped my Sony Directv HD receiver (HD200) for the HR10-250 HD TiVo. Last night I got a 60" Sony SXRD and just now swapped the connections so that I am using the TVs tuner for the HD channels instead of the HR10-250. Boom all the channels I lost are back but I lost the ability to record channel 5.1 (CBS) and 33.1 (Fox) HD programs - sigh! I can't wait for D* to swap out the HR10-250 for the HR20.

Reggie

What is sad is that a small group of folks in the 70s and 80s were actually working on technology to deal with the biggest issue in analog OTA TV, ghosts. Several technologies were developed, but never widely adopted because of cable and satellite competition. Since they required changes in TV tuners as well as the broadcast signal, the CEMs needed to change their products. Well nobody in the CEMs thought that changes for OTA could compete with "cable ready", and few TVs were ever produced that could use the technology where it was available. Purchased as a separate receiver, the technology was too expensive for the average consumer.


Not only that, manufacturers began to optimize their tuners for cable reception instead of over the air reception. TVs from the pre-cable ready tuner era were able to get pretty good (not perfect) reception with rabbit ears. Once the manufacturers adopted cable-ready tuners though, the ability to use rabbit ears disappeared entirely. Optimizing for bandwidth instead of sensitivity, etc.

-Glen

Well I am back to getting OTA HD in Denver. I lost most of them when I swapped my Sony Directv HD receiver (HD200) for the HR10-250 HD TiVo. Last night I got a 60" Sony SXRD and just now swapped the connections so that I am using the TVs tuner for the HD channels instead of the HR10-250. Boom all the channels I lost are back but I lost the ability to record channel 5.1 (CBS) and 33.1 (Fox) HD programs - sigh! I can't wait for D* to swap out the HR10-250 for the HR20.
Reggie

I don't have any noticeable differences between my SXRD and HR10-250 OTA tuners. *And I probably have a good setup for comparisons since my signal quality is not great, so when I notice a dropout on one device, I usually notice the same series of dropouts on the other device.

I don't have any noticeable differences between my SXRD and HR10-250 OTA tuners. *And I probably have a good setup for comparisons since my signal quality is not great, so when I notice a dropout on one device, I usually notice the same series of dropouts on the other device.
Well my distance is probably the factor. Also - I can not afford to run a spliter to do real time side by side comparisions as the 3db loss will be significant. I am very much weather dependent as well as the time of the day. But there was a huge difference - and if you look at the forum postings here you will see other echo my results.

Reggie

Well I am back to getting OTA HD in Denver. I lost most of them when I swapped my Sony Directv HD receiver (HD200) for the HR10-250 HD TiVo. Last night I got a 60" Sony SXRD and just now swapped the connections so that I am using the TVs tuner for the HD channels instead of the HR10-250. Boom all the channels I lost are back but I lost the ability to record channel 5.1 (CBS) and 33.1 (Fox) HD programs - sigh! I can't wait for D* to swap out the HR10-250 for the HR20.

Reggie

You do know that the OTA is disabled on the HR20? It will be an even longer wait.

# Matt

You do know that the OTA is disabled on the HR20? It will be an even longer wait.

# Matt
I think he means that when he gets the HR20, he'll be able to record the locals from satellite in HD.

It's also stupid, IMHO; for people who actually have 16:9 TVs there's no way to do anything with a 14:9 signal except display it in 4:3 mode without losing content. :eek:

The 14:9 is for analog 4:3 sets. If you have a 16:9 set, you are supposed to be watching the HD signal, which is 16:9.

It is true that many analog cable signals in the 80s were of poor quality, though still better than the OTA alternative. In the early days of cable, many cable providers didn't have a direct feed from the broadcasters and were merely transmitting a signal that they picked up OTA. However, it was still signal quality that drove folks to cable, not their offerings. In fact, HBO started out as an OTA signal, encrypted of course.

Not around here. I went to cable for what was on it. I had zero problems getting the locals and all of the locals supplied an off-board signal to the cable company. For a while, one station had an off transmitter tap. That ultimately changed. I knew the chief engineer of the cable head end and had visited the system many a time.

Just because you had cable didn't mean you got a better signal of the locals. I used to attend the city cable meetings all the time. Sometimes it appeared that I attended the meetings better than some of the board members. :) There where lots of complaints about quality. Back then, they used microwave to get signals to the farther reaches of the system and rain caused a problem all the time.

There were complaints about channel lineup, i.e., what was not on the system.

So, around here, it seemed that what was offered by the cable system was the reason people here got cable, not to get better reception of the locals.

I left cable when I got my C-band system up and running with a VCII+ card, allowing me to get the choice of channels that I wanted, and then some, and of better quality than cable supplied me, considering I got the same signal they did.

YMMV

Phil,

I worked at WRAU19ABC for a year and then WEEK25NBC for about 4 years as their Production Manager. I went out to the the station on Monday to say hello. Things change, but stay the same. WEEK now runs both NBC and UPN out their building (sound familier?) Both in full-power HD. Oh... Mac says Hi. ;)

Lastly, they didn't have one HD deck or HD server in house! They just passed the net signals, so, no syndicated HD playbacks of 'Wheel' for them.

Gee, sounds just like the local NBC affiliate. They too are not airing syndicated HD because they do not have the budget for a deck/server in which to record the feed. Jeopardy and Wheel are going to be sent via Pathfire, once all of the bugs are worked out in getting HD Pathfire up and running. That will solve the recording problem :)

The local Fox affiliate is owned by Sinclair. 'Nuf said.

I think he means that when he gets the HR20, he'll be able to record the locals from satellite in HD.
Exactly - having OTA antenna will be a loss. And per the forums - it will be turned on next month by D*

Reggie

Gee, sounds just like the local NBC affiliate. They too are not airing syndicated HD because they do not have the budget for a deck/server in which to record the feed. Jeopardy and Wheel are going to be sent via Pathfire, once all of the bugs are worked out in getting HD Pathfire up and running. That will solve the recording problem :)I wish it were that simple. From what I understand, Pathfire is only a delivery system, and when stuff comes to it you'd better dub it to your tape or server soon thereafter, or it may be gone by airtime. You still need the deck or server to record the feed.

But even if it were a matter of playing the signal directly out of Pathfire -- which it isn't, because it may not be there -- you still have to have a properly configured switcher and encoder to take that output and convert it to something the station's HD encoder can use.

It is true that many analog cable signals in the 80s were of poor quality, though still better than the OTA alternative.
Carl B.

I guess that depends on where you are/were. If one was unable to get anything but a snowy signal with fading and broken sound, yes the cable signal is/was probably better. OTH I have lived in Chicago, New Orleans and Denver over the last 40 years or so. In all cases I kept an antenna and used it to get all of the local channels OTA. I did this because of the fact that the OTA signal in all cases gave me pictures that were of vastly higher quality than the compressed softened junk I could get with my cable service. This is still true even today, and applies to satellite service the same as it does to cable.

The only reason I paid for cable service or now for programing via D* was/is content. Even at that, before the advent of HD, it still always bothered me to watch my premium content with such lousy PQ when compared to my OTA reception.

Obviously this has nothing to do with the main assertion of your post, but it is a real sore subject for me.

Phil P.

Here is today's offering in the letters to the editor in the Camera. I'm not sure what FCC study he is citing unless he is ignoring the obvious additional complexity of the number of repeaters required for the Squaw location.



Boulder Daily Camera Letters to the Editor 9/14/06 see "Television" (http://bouldercamera.com/bdc/letters_to_editor/article/0,1713,BDC_2491_4990944,00.html)

For those who have/will go to the show at the Convention Center, I'm wondering if anybody had the idea to build into the TV set an HD-DVR?

It seems like a natural. A three-tuner HDTV incorporating onboard HD-DVR that can record all tuners at the same time, with USB/fire ports for adding additional memory. Oh, and it must be upgradeable!!

:D

Why, yes they have. LG and Mitsubishi have got some models out with HD DVRs built in. Just one tuner though...

While we're on this topic: Does anyone make a DVR that allows us to export the data to a DVD? For me, I would want to be able to 'archive' certain recordings(football games, etc.).
....jc

I assume some of the people here are going to CEDIA. Anyone know what it takes to get through the door?

Got a extra pass/ticket? I'd be riding light rail up from the Santa Fe/Mineral station.

While we're on this topic: Does anyone make a DVR that allows us to export the data to a DVD? For me, I would want to be able to 'archive' certain recordings(football games, etc.).
....jc
Yes, if you go the HTPC route. The only limitation is HD is only from OTA, presumably because of DRM. 2 parts fusion (http://www.2partsfusion.com) is one provider, the unit has an ATSC tuner, 2 NTSC tuners, and S-video or composite inputs for SD satellite/cable. It has a biuilt in DVD burner for your archiving.

While we're on this topic: Does anyone make a DVR that allows us to export the data to a DVD? For me, I would want to be able to 'archive' certain recordings(football games, etc.).
....jc

Scientific Atlanta, umm, I mean, Cisco, makes one:

http://sciatl.com/customers/Source/7007081.pdf

Good luck getting one in this market though.

-Glen

I guess that depends on where you are/were. If one was unable to get anything but a snowy signal with fading and broken sound, yes the cable signal is/was probably better. OTH I have lived in Chicago, New Orleans and Denver over the last 40 years or so. In all cases I kept an antenna and used it to get all of the local channels OTA. I did this because of the fact that the OTA signal in all cases gave me pictures that were of vastly higher quality than the compressed softened junk I could get with my cable service. This is still true even today, and applies to satellite service the same as it does to cable.

The only reason I paid for cable service or now for programing via D* was/is content. Even at that, before the advent of HD, it still always bothered me to watch my premium content with such lousy PQ when compared to my OTA reception.

Obviously this has nothing to do with the main assertion of your post, but it is a real sore subject for me.

Phil P.

The main issue with analog OTA in urban areas where the signal is typically strong is ghosts. I grew up in the inner city of Chicago in the 50s and early 60s. We had a chimney antenna, but we never had a ghost-free picture. I lived in Tulsa, OK in the 70s and Aurora, CO in the 80s. Had to rely on set-top antennas and the ghosts were horrible. My neighbors and I gave a big hooray when we got cable and got rid of most of the ghosts. Yes, the general PQ sucked, but the ghosts were usually gone, with usually just one or two local channel exceptions.

Even today, with my attic antenna farm, I can't get channels 7, 9, and 31 OTA w/o ghosts. All the others have PQ equal to or better than my locals from E*. Under ideal conditions an OTA analog signal is generally better than what analog cable delivers. But, few have those ideal conditions for all of their locals, so they have the maddening ghosts. Oh, and don't forget what those ghosted broadcasts looked like if you taped them with your VCR. Horrid!

So some folks went cable for content (I think ESPN and MTV drove a lot of that), but a large number went cable just to rid themselves of the ghosts.

The 14:9 is for analog 4:3 sets. If you have a 16:9 set, you are supposed to be watching the HD signal, which is 16:9.

I have to disagree, there are several letterboxed shows that are not offered in HD, Stargate SG1 is the first to come to mind. Fortunately IMO what you lose on the top and bottom is insignificant so I just zoom it.

Regarding the cable vs OTA I guess I was just luckty, in the 80s I was in Westminster and had a small rooftop antenna,. The cable signal on OTA was so terrible I put an A/B switch at every TV and watched locals OTA and switched to cable for the other channels. In the early 90's they made a change that made locals watchable on cable but I still frequently switched to OTA.

I wish it were that simple. From what I understand, Pathfire is only a delivery system, and when stuff comes to it you'd better dub it to your tape or server soon thereafter, or it may be gone by airtime. You still need the deck or server to record the feed.

Thank goodness that is not true. Files are not automatically deleted on you before you even get a chance to air them. The system is designed to do playout directly from the Pathfire system, to air. For a long time stations dumped to tape because the system was so unreliable. If it hiccup'd during one of the file segments, you could not continue from that glitch. Segments are only playable from the start. I believe that is true to this day. While we home computer guys can play MPEG-2 segments from within anywhere, Pathfire can't, or won't. I understand that it is getting better. I do not know if there is an automatic file erase, but in no way will it be before the contracted air date.

But even if it were a matter of playing the signal directly out of Pathfire -- which it isn't, because it may not be there -- you still have to have a properly configured switcher and encoder to take that output and convert it to something the station's HD encoder can use.

If the station's plant is HD-SDI, there will be an interface from Pathfire's MPEG-2 files (the SD files are 4:2:2 720x512, haven't heard what the HD files will be) to the plant's infrastructure. What good is Pathfire if it can't connect, as a server, to the plant's infrastructure?

That is supposed to be one of the selling points, it is a store and forward server.

While we're on this topic: Does anyone make a DVR that allows us to export the data to a DVD? For me, I would want to be able to 'archive' certain recordings(football games, etc.).
....jc

You can buy Tivos with DVD burners built in. You can also hack most Tivos to allow bitstream extraction, which you can then burn to DVD.

The Comcast DVR's also permit you to do this via Firewire, although you can't dump content from any premium channels, and even some of the locals now seem to have a flag that prevents additional copies so that you can't send the content via Firewire, although I suppose you could send it to a burner via component.

Len Akin wrote: In regard to the Daily Camera's editorial "How's your reception?" (Sept. 12), you have overlooked several critical facts in your claim that putting a TV supertower in Squaw Mountain instead of on Lookout Mountain would diminish Denver area's access to free TV. This is not the case.

Currently, broadcasters at the Lookout Mountain site require repeaters (boosters) to serve many shadowed areas in Denver and Boulder. According to an FCC study, a supertower on Squaw Mountain with repeaters in Boulder and parts of Denver would increase the coverage beyond what it is today in both Denver and Boulder. These repeaters can either be located on existing cell towers or be a 10-foot attachment to a telephone pole.First, where are the repeaters in Denver? I've never seen one. Anybody? And two, (you'll all love this one) There isn't one company making High-Def, OTA DTV Repeaters... NOT ONE!

So, that kinda' blows the Squaw Mt/Repeater idea out of the water.

First, where are the repeaters in Denver? I've never seen one. Anybody? And two, (you'll all love this one) There isn't one company making High-Def, OTA DTV Repeaters... NOT ONE!

So, that kinda' blows the Squaw Mt/Repeater idea out of the water.
Aw, come on Ernie, you can't let a stupid thing like the 'FACTS' get in the way of a good editorial letter from (S)CARE. If they had to stick with the facts there would be nothing to argue about.......

Maybe weird AL's concocted an HD, OTA DTV, Repeater Transmitter in his lookout la-bor-a-tory. Muahhhhaaaaa! ;)
Check at the local COSCO and see if there has been a run on aluminum foil.......I have heard when placed in the right location a large sheet of foil makes a great repeater.
:D

There isn't one company making High-Def, OTA DTV Repeaters... NOT ONE!

So, that kinda' blows the Squaw Mt/Repeater idea out of the water.


Ernie,
DTV repeaters are available from Acrodyne, Axcera, K-Tech, HiWave and others.

Ernie,
DTV repeaters are available from Acrodyne, Axcera, K-Tech, HiWave and others.
So I guess we can trade one smaller 'super tower' on Lookout for 10 or 15 repeater towers NOT on Lookout (largely around Boulder County and Arrowhead and Fort Collins etc.). I suppose if I owned property on Lookout that sounds good, but otherwise it sounds like a pretty bad trade for the people living on the front range. Should be a real challenge for the local stations to keep all those repeaters co-ordinated as opposed to a single transmitter........by the way, what happens if the residents of Squaw Mt. form an organization called, let's say for fun, (S)CARE II to keep the towers out of their back yards?

It's not like Clear Creek County has pre-approved a massive expansion of the broadcast facilities on Squaw Mountain that would be necessary to accomodate a migration there. Residents from up there testified at the Jeffco hearings that they would oppose such approval.

The road to the existing Squaw Mountain transmission site is much less passable in winter (recall the comment from KBDI in the Daily Camera regarding winter outages). It is not clear what would be needed in terms of power infrastructure and fire management either. The only advantage to (s)CARE is that it isn't in their backyard, so they think their property values would go up.

Even if television moved (and I don't think it will), nothing is going to be done to move all of the other towers up there. That's why it seems to me (s)CARE is just tilting at windmills (that look like broadcast towers).

So I guess we can trade one smaller 'super tower' on Lookout for 10 or 15 repeater towers NOT on Lookout (largely around Boulder County and Arrowhead and Fort Collins etc.).
I posted something a long time ago, concerning a new technology that the FCC had approved to do what you are talking about. However, I doubt(for cost reasons) that any Denver station would use it for total coverage. They pretty much need a high power 'base' tower, and then a few 'repeaters' for fill in coverage.

So, if Lookout doesn't happen, I would expect a high power transmitter elsewhere, and then maybe some 'repeaters'.

Whatever. This whole thing is a crock-o-sh!t.
....jc

This whole thing is a crock-o-sh!t.

Bra-vo!

DTV repeaters are available from Acrodyne, Axcera, K-Tech, HiWave and others. Al, send us a link to over-the-air, HighDef repeaters, not Standard Def repeaters or Low-power transmitters (like ontop of Republic) The industry people I've spoken to say they only make SD, but not HD repeaters. If you want them to install low-power transmitters all over the 'shadow' areas, then they would have to have microwave or fiber links. More dishes on those towers to make the neighbors happy!

And how do you get all those homeowners to approve zoning for that? They're suing left-and-right over small, silly cell phone antennas. Think they'll just let them build more, publically perceived, cancer-causing, TV Towers?

Well someone must be making HD repeaters, because KDVRs Fort Collins repeater is broadcasting in HD.

Well someone must be making HD repeaters, because KDVRs Fort Collins repeater is broadcasting in HD.
Its on a different frequency though. I think Ernie was referring to on-frequency repeaters.

On the lighter side, even though I know you guys couldn't care less, I noticed this week that NBC is now broadcasting the Today show in HD and ABC is doing The View in HD (or at least they are 16 X 9, I haven't watched close enough to judge the PQ). This is a huge improvement for the Today show as their SD PQ absolutely sucked no matter what source I watched it from.

BTW, how many more weeks/months is KBDI's DT signal going to be hosed? It has been showing up as channel 38 (with -1, -2, -3, -4, -5,-6 sub-channels depending on which receiver I use) since at least mid to late July I believe. Are they so financially straped that they can't maintain their DTV effort and comply with FCC requirements?

That's very strange CEB. KBDI seems to be mapping correctly on my receiver. I've got 12.1 12.2 and the unnecessary 12.3.

Well someone must be making HD repeaters, because KDVRs Fort Collins repeater is broadcasting in HD.KDVR in Ft. Collin's is a full tower, transmitter and building, not a small local repeater. The companies that Al named above make full transmitters.

What sCARE wants you to believe is that you can just put tiny, un-seen units all over the western side of the front range that can magically broadcast OTA digital DTV. Well, they don't exist. Sure, you could build low-power transmitters like the ones on Republic Plaza, but they gonna' be small, and remember, they will send off plenty of that "Deadly Radiation", You want that right next to your elementary school?

Now that I have my SXRD in use to watch OTA local HD, I can consistently get 9.1 and usually 7.1 at night. Strangely - I can not get 4.1 to come in (not that big of a deal as I can get a strong signal from 5.1) Can anyone tell me why 4.1 is not coming in as well as 9.1 - since it is suppose to be at the Republic Building too - right?


Reggie

Now that I have my SXRD in use to watch OTA local HD, I can consistently get 9.1 and usually 7.1 at night. Strangely - I can not get 4.1 to come in (not that big of a deal as I can get a strong signal from 5.1) Can anyone tell me why 4.1 is not coming in as well as 9.1 - since it is suppose to be at the Republic Building too - right?


Reggie
4.1 is using a higher frequency (34 if I remember right) so their range is less with the same power. I am in the same situation on the other side of town, 7.1 and 9.1 are good 95% of the time but 4.1 is maybe 50/50.

4.1 is using a higher frequency (34 if I remember right) so their range is less with the same power. I am in the same situation on the other side of town, 7.1 and 9.1 are good 95% of the time but 4.1 is maybe 50/50.
Close - Digital 35 Interesting that I get a analog channel on 35. Did not realize that the higher frequency drops off that much. Can't get it to register at all though the level meter on the SXRD shows 41% consistantly when I enter 4.1 but I can not get the channel to be registered for setup on the set.
Reggie

That's very strange CEB. KBDI seems to be mapping correctly on my receiver. I've got 12.1 12.2 and the unnecessary 12.3.It's always been a crap shoot for me whether KBDI-DT would appear as 12.1/12.2/12.3 or 38.3/38.4/38.5 on all of my receivers. My 1st gen receiver seems to always have it at 38. Each channel scan would either fix or break the mapping on my 2nd and 3rd gen receiver.

Close - Digital 35 Interesting that I get a analog channel on 35. Did not realize that the higher frequency drops off that much. Can't get it to register at all though the level meter on the SXRD shows 41% consistantly when I enter 4.1 but I can not get the channel to be registered for setup on the set.
Reggie KCNC-DT is the only RP station I can't get either, except on a few lucky evenings in the Fall/Winter (while sitting on my head, holding some foli in my toes, yadda yadda ;) )

............ (while sitting on my head, holding some foli in my toes, yadda yadda ;) )
I can't be absolutely sure, but I think that will qualify you to be one of Al's HD repeaters.
:D

KDVR in Ft. Collin's is a full tower, transmitter and building, not a small local repeater. The companies that Al named above make full transmitters.

Ah, I see. Well that sure makes sense, because after hours of searching Google, I sure as hell couldn't find a single HD translator manufacturer out there.

I wonder why no one is making these things. No demand? Or maybe some problem with the FCC?

Ernie,
You can start with http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/2006.06.14-f_Doug_Lung.shtml for an overview of available repeater technology, including on-channel.

Here’s a manufacturer’s page http://www.dmtonline.com/english/category_products.php?catId=1

and another reference
http://broadcastengineering.com/news/broadcasting_acrodyne_industries_launches/index.html

Does (S)CARE propose to buy the properties all up and down the front range and provide the additional equipment for each of the four stations (including routine maintenance) as well as the power for each of the repeaters that they propose to replace the LCG proposed 'single smaller tower'? Will (S)CARE also be providing the money necessary to fight the NIMBY citizens group of homeowners living on Squaw Mt. in order to clear the way for the four new LCG towers to be built there???? I would assume that in all likelihood nearly all of the newly required repeater towers will also encounter their own NIMBY groups just like (S)CARE. Accomplishing this transition before the cutoff date is going to be costly. It would seem only fair that the (S)CARE group would gladly cover the cost of all of this in order get the LCG to move the towers. I would think that the increase in their property values on Lookout could easily cover the second mortgages necessary to support their proposal. If not, it seems like simply changing the modulation scheme on each of the four existing towers is still the best solution (assuming (S)CARE will not recognize the proposed 4 down to 1 smaller tower as an improvement).

KCNC-DT is the only RP station I can't get either, except on a few lucky evenings in the Fall/Winter (while sitting on my head, holding some foli in my toes, yadda yadda ;) )

I would think if you move your antenna outside you should probably get it fairly well.
I am 7 or 8 miles farther out and only maybe 50' higher than you and 4.1 is fairly consistent at night but intermittent during the day.

Why doesn't LCG buy up all the property of the (S)CARE members, and turn it in to a park? With all the hoopla going on, their "glow in the dark" houses can't be worth much :) .

Al.......
The big problem with repeaters and boosters is, every property owner now knows that their sites are worth zillion$ of dollar$, and will demand that someone pay the same kind of money that the cellular phone industry pays for each site. Stations don't have that kind of money.

Why doesn't LCG buy up all the property of the (S)CARE members, and turn it in to a park? With all the hoopla going on, their "glow in the dark" houses can't be worth much :) .
One reason is because not one (s)CARE member actually wants to move. It would take condemnation proceeding (which would probably be appropriate if public safety was really at risk).

I may have posted about this before, but from the 1920s to the 1960s there was a neighborhood called Surfridge at the west (beach) end of Los Angeles International Airport. Through a vote of residents and subsequent condemnation proceedings, the homes in the neighborhood were demolished, the people scattered, and all that remains is the pavement that was once streets. You can read more at http://www.lakata.org/arch/surfridge/ if you care about such things.

Maybe that is what the residents of Lookout Mountain want?

Ernie,
You can start with http://www.tvtechnology.com/feature...Doug_Lung.shtml for an overview of available repeater technology, including on-channel.

Here’s a manufacturer’s page http://www.dmtonline.com/english/ca...cts.php?catId=1

and another reference
http://broadcastengineering.com/new...ches/index.htmlI checked out all your links in detail (including downloading the companies pdf's) Not one says they work in HDTV. All those products only say DTV. And in fact, seem to avoid the words HD or High-definition, which made me wonder. So, I did a find for HD, HDTV, High Definiton, 1080, 1080i, 720, 720p... Not one mention in any of those links!

Remember, DTV can be Standard-definition as well as High-definition. Which as we all know can be HD, but not always!

Well, digital repeaters don't re-encode the source signal do they? Now I'm no broadcast engineer, but don't they just pass on the source signal verbatim? A digital signal is a digital signal, why would it care what's in that signal, it just repeats what it sees.

So maybe there is no such thing as a "HD repeater". Maybe they're simply either analog or they're digital.

Am I making any sense here? It's late...

Digital On-Channel Boosters can be used to fill coverage gaps, but they require the viewers to be in an area that is fairly well-shielded from the direct signal, or they will have interference problems.

Digital Translators receive the signal on one channel and rebroadcast it on another channel, assuming there is any room in the spectrum for the different output channel. This is a better way to go if there is insufficient terrain shielding to block the main, high-powered signal.

Either way, the equipment can pass everything that comes in to it, or it can be set up to reinsert PSIP data with some new parameters, such as the new channel info, or the translator's call sign. Some units simply pass the 8VSB DTV signal with amplification, and some will clean up and reclock the incoming data. They will all pass what comes in....SDTV, HDTV, etc.

But, why do all of that in a market that already has a perfectly good site for their transmitters? Save the spectrum for translators where they are really needed, like outside of Denver. Lots of folks don't live within LOS of the stations, and depend on translators, satellite or Cable. Hopefully, they are not becoming pawns of the (S)CARE people.

One reason is because not one (s)CARE member actually wants to move. It would take condemnation proceeding (which would probably be appropriate if public safety was really at risk).

I may have posted about this before, but from the 1920s to the 1960s there was a neighborhood called Surfridge at the west (beach) end of Los Angeles International Airport. Through a vote of residents and subsequent condemnation proceedings, the homes in the neighborhood were demolished, the people scattered, and all that remains is the pavement that was once streets. You can read more at http://www.lakata.org/arch/surfridge/ if you care about such things.

Maybe that is what the residents of Lookout Mountain want?

The same thing happened in Anaheim on what is now the Disneyland site. And now there are talking mice everywhere! :D

I really hate to dump one of these posts here, but I went a few dozen pages back and didn't find too much information--this is thread-zilla! What's the status of OTA in the loveland/fort collins area? I'm particularly interested with north-central loveland. Last time I looked into HD, KDVR was the only one that looked plausable.

Welcome to the Forum!! I can't help with much with Northern CO, but without a large outside antenna you are not going to have much luck. I believe there is a Northern Colorado thread or some of the others may jump in.

Is anyone else having trouble with KRMA? I can't get a lock but the others republic stations seem fine.

Has anyone else noted the disappearance of KRMA-DT? I have zero signal strength for them while all the other RP stations are coming in fine.

Has anyone else noted the disappearance of KRMA-DT? I have zero signal strength for them while all the other RP stations are coming in fine.

I have. Went to the basement last night to watch Soundstage or Austin City Limits and it was gone. Still gone as of Kickoff time today. I live in Highlands Ranch, and have been getting great reception, as of last night???

Anyone noticed that KUSA is shrunk? it's 16:9, but not full screen???