Ahh, OTA in Denver. What fun!
I was in Austin over thanksgiving. My parents have a new 42" LCD HDTV and Dish Network. They don't have a DVR, nor do they get HDTV from Dish.
My father still wires everything up with a coax cable and watches dish on channel 5. So I set about wiring his Dish, VCR, DVD up using AV cables, etc. While pokng around, I found an old VHF/UHF indoor antenna. Since he keeps his TV in a cabinet, he has lots of room behind the flat panel, so I suggested we just wire up the antenna and see what DTV channels he got. He assured me he wouldn't get anything, as when he was without dish for a week, he tried using the antenna for analog, but he got no channels. Well, I said, let's just try anyway. Plugged it in, did a channel scan, and he got all local channels perfectly (interestingly, they have 3 stations with all weather sub-channels -- you would think they would try different things for their bandwith robbers, er, subchannels).
Later in the day, we went over to my sister's house. My father couldn't wait to tell my brother-in-law how good the game looked on his TV in HD. So my brother in law pulled out a UHF loop. I found a cable/balun and hooked it up (und it from the wall behind his HDTV, and voila, they had HDTV too.

After coming home and being unable to watch ABC the other night (I'm right on the edge, so if things aren't perfect I get a good picture but the sound is all screwed up), I realized how nice DTV would be if we had reasonable signals. I can't wait until 2009.

So anyone know if KWGN and KCNC will be able to go to the FCC and say "oops, we really meant we wanted to keep our old frequencies (2 and 4). We know they are bad, but we don't want to have to change anything on our antennas."

Since it seems like 2009 will be here before things change on lookout, I'd be looking into that. If they don't go back, KWGN will have to stay at 1/2 power which will mean they'll lose coverage, and I don't know what KCNC would do. Dealing with low VHF doesn't seem as bad as the alternative at this time.

Sorry for the aimless ramblings. Just found it interesting how *little* work was involved in Austin.

BTW: I was going to get that DV10 black friday deal at CC. Showed up at 4:30 AM. The CC I went to in Austin was in a strip mall. The line waiting to get in stretched from the front door, past two adjacent stores, past a Dave and Busters (which was at the end of the strip mall), then down the side of the D&B, all the way to then end of the parking lot, and then 1/2 back up the other side of the lot. When they opened the doors, it took 20 minutes for us to get into the store. Needless to say, I didn't get the DV10, and neither did the 8 guys waiting in the projector line in front of me (I had called and they only had 3 to start with). Even the display model was gone by the time I got in. I really think I would've had a better chance in Boulder or Longmont. just too many people in that part of Austin. A projector is coming my way sometime; that just seemed too cheap to pass up, even just to use as a toy and outdoor movie projector. Oh well, as things keep getting cheaper, I guess I'll see something like that again before too long. But I probably won't see full-power HDTV anytime soon :(

BTW: I was going to get that DV10 black friday deal at CC. Showed up at 4:30 AM. The CC I went to in Austin was in a strip mall. The line waiting to get in stretched from the front door, past two adjacent stores, past a Dave and Busters (which was at the end of the strip mall), then down the side of the D&B, all the way to then end of the parking lot, and then 1/2 back up the other side of the lot. When they opened the doors, it took 20 minutes for us to get into the store. Needless to say, I didn't get the DV10, and neither did the 8 guys waiting in the projector line in front of me (I had called and they only had 3 to start with). Even the display model was gone by the time I got in. I really think I would've had a better chance in Boulder or Longmont. just too many people in that part of Austin. A projector is coming my way sometime; that just seemed too cheap to pass up, even just to use as a toy and outdoor movie projector. Oh well, as things keep getting cheaper, I guess I'll see something like that again before too long. But I probably won't see full-power HDTV anytime soon :(
I don't think you would have had any better luck here. I went to the CC on HW 7 and I-25 which is always dead and the amount of people in that line before the store opened was unreal. By the time the store opened you had no chance at getting anything you wanted unless you were at the very front of the line.

Ahh, OTA in Denver. What fun!
That s/b:
Ahh, OTA in Denver. What a JOKE!

Since it seems like 2009 will be here before things change on lookout, I'd be looking into that. If they don't go back, KWGN will have to stay at 1/2 power which will mean they'll lose coverage, and I don't know what KCNC would do.
I think not! :eek: The reason that KWGN is 1/2 power is due to their analog transmission. Stop the analog, and they can crank up the digital transmission on UHF 34.

KWGN & KDVR are under a different scenario than the infamous Lake Cedar Group. I believe that they are cleared for full power, at their current site, on their current digital frequency, when they shutdown their analog transmission. The reason that they are not at full power now, is due to the combined radiation from their analog & digital transmissions at the same site.

I do have a problems with KWGN: They could tweek their antenna to reach us down South, but haven't. :(
....jc

Posted by gkanders:
Since it seems like 2009 will be here before things change on lookout, I'd be looking into that. If they don't go back, KWGN will have to stay at 1/2 power which will mean they'll lose coverage, and I don't know what KCNC would do. Dealing with low VHF doesn't seem as bad as the alternative at this time.

It is my understanding that KWGN is at 1/2 power now to keep RF radiation from exceeding FCC parameters. I believe the same situation prevents KDVR from being full power right now. When the analogs are shut off, the 100 kW signal of analog KWGN and the 5000 kW signal of KDVR will go away and they will be able to boost their power and stay within the FCC parameters. And if KWGN goes back to channel 2 after analog cutoff, which I seriously doubt will happen, the RF would be greatly reduced since I believe the max signal strength for channels 2-6 on digital is under 25 kW.

Posted by Big Worms:
I don't think you would have had any better luck here. I went to the CC on HW 7 and I-25 which is always dead and the amount of people in that line before the store opened was unreal. By the time the store opened you had no chance at getting anything you wanted unless you were at the very front of the line.

One of my wife's friends got in line at the BB off E-470 in Aurora at about 4:00 PM Thanksgiving Day. That's well over 24 hours before they opened on Black Friday. She was not even close to being the first in line. And although she didn't get both of the items she wanted, she did get one - the $379 laptop. They handed out flyers/certificates a few hours before the store opened. If you didn't get a flyer/ceritificate for what you wanted because you were too far back in line, you didn't get what you wanted. Good lesson for next year - get there early, if you don't get a flyer/certificate for what you want, go home and sleep.

One of my wife's friends got in line at the BB off E-470 in Aurora at about 4:00 PM Thanksgiving Day. That's well over 24 hours before they opened on Black Friday.That's about 13 hours - unless you meant to say 4AM. Still, your advice is well taken.

I'll ask Don Rooney at KWGN, but I don't think they can 'crank up' to full power using their backup 90' tower (after analog cutoff). That sounds like way too much power, that close to the ground.

The hearing next week is to let them use their large tower again.

KWGN has asked me to rally the troops to speak at the hearing this upcoming Wednesday. 9am at the TAJ. sCARE will be there in force no doubt.

I'll ask Don Rooney at KWGN, but I don't think they can 'crank up' to full power using their backup 90' tower (after analog cutoff). That sounds like way too much power, that close to the ground.
Ok, my bad! :confused: I assumed that they just hung the digital antenna lower on the same tower. The FCC info, is at best, confusing! They are showing the antenna at 248 meters HAAT, and the digital antenna in a different location(from their analog) by 0° 00' 01".
....jc

KWGN has asked me to rally the troops to speak at the hearing this upcoming Wednesday. 9am at the TAJ. sCARE will be there in force no doubt.
If they would allow people to call in, I could do that. Otherwise it's a 2 hour drive. :(
....jc

jc,

The commissioners did allow video testimony in the past. If you are serious, contact Don Rooney at KWGN and ask if you could stop buy to record a 2 minute testimonial. I'm sure he would find time for you to record it.

It is my understanding that KWGN's power is limited by the size of their antenna. The size of their antenna is limited by the zoning. (that is, they have been deemed to be legal, non-conforming so they found a way to put up a 'small' antenna and still meet the rules of "legal, non-conforming".) The hearing on Wednesday is not in front of the Board of County Commissioners, it is in front of the Board of Adjustment. KWGN is appealing the decision that their tower is legal, non-conforming. If the Board finds that the tower is properly zoned, then they should be able to put up a 'full-size' antenna and broadcast at full power.

KDVR is properly zoned. When they went on the air with digital TV, the FCC limited their power to what they are broadcasting at now. This was so that they matched their analog signal coverage. The FCC had rules saying that 1,000 watts was the maximum power, but that the higher you went above average terrain, you had to reduce power, so that your signal did not go too far. Since then, the FCC has remanded this rule for DTV, so KDVR could apply with the FCC to go to 1000 watts, and since they are properly zoned, they would just get a telecommunications permit (like a building permit, but for antennas) from the county, showing that they would be in compliance with the exposure guidelines and increase their power. The only thing keeping them at their current power is themselves. (When they first went on the air, they had a hard time demonstrating compliance with exposure rules, since two FM radio stations next to their tower were putting the site out of compliance. Since then, the FM stations have replaced their antenna and the area is now well in compliance.)

-Wabisabi

Posted by Oxothuk:
That's about 13 hours - unless you meant to say 4AM. Still, your advice is well taken.

My bad. You're right, it was about 13 hours. Still a long time to wait in line, especially being sleepy after eating turkey.

A while back, someone mentioned that some of the stations were thinking of adding a tower on top of RP so that they could increase power. Has anyone heard anything on that? Any extra bit of power would be helpful for many of us that don't have perfect LOS.

I was trying to watch Boston Legal tonight on channel 7, and just ended up changing channels and watching something else due to all of the dropouts that I get on 7. It's also very rare that I see channel 20. All of the other RP stations come in perfect for me. Oh well, I am grateful for the few stations that I do get!

I no longer can get 20-1 either. The signal is on the verge of coming in. Sometimes at night it will pop in for a few hours. I get all other RP signals perfectly.

I no longer can get 20-1 either. The signal is on the verge of coming in. Sometimes at night it will pop in for a few hours. I get all other RP signals perfectly.

Hmmm......
I've been getting 20 just fine but have had occasional intermittent problems with Channel 9 (KUSA-DT 16) lately and with Channel 6 (KRMA-DT 18) over the past week or so. In those cases, signal strength drops by 20-30 points, and there are intermittent dropouts.
When I have those problems, all the other channels 2,4,7,20,31,53 still come it at normal strength.

Anyone else ?
I live in Louisville (N. of S. Boulder Rd) and get great reception with a DB2 indoor antenna and Digital Stream 3150+, by the way.

I'm certainly no expert and I haven't lost any of the local OTA signals, but I've noticed over the past couple of weeks that we've had good tropo conditions in the area, especially at night. I've been able to pick up a very weak KOAA out of the Springs a few times when it is especially strong.

When we have this good tropo, I notice that the farther away stations that I receive get stronger and some of the locals get weaker. For example, last night KFCT was booming in at the low 90's on my E*211 and KGWN (Cheyenne) was near 80. Without good tropo, KFCT normally comes in at about 75 and KGWN in the low 60's. With the good tropo, my signal strength for KUSA usually drops from the low 80's to about 75 while KCNC's signal drops a couple of points, usually down from the low 70's to the high 60's. I don't watch much on KGMH, KTVD, or KWGN, so I can't report anything about their signals.

The KFCT signal was again strong this afternoon, about 85, while I watched the Cowboys-Giants game and KGWN's signal was stronger than KCNC's while I watched portions of the Bills-Chargers game.

Perhaps someone with some engineering expertise can add to this discussion.

Yeah, I'm noticing the better signals at night. The only difference is that I don't see a decrease with any channels. Everything comes in better. The ones that are on the lower end all have a higher increase than the ones that are always the best. I'm getting 20-1 at 70% which is usually at 40% and my worst channel.

Hmmm......
I've been getting 20 just fine but have had occasional intermittent problems with Channel 9 (KUSA-DT 16) lately and with Channel 6 (KRMA-DT 18) over the past week or so. In those cases, signal strength drops by 20-30 points, and there are intermittent dropouts.
When I have those problems, all the other channels 2,4,7,20,31,53 still come it at normal strength.

Anyone else ?
I live in Louisville (N. of S. Boulder Rd) and get great reception with a DB2 indoor antenna and Digital Stream 3150+, by the way.

I never have trouble with 9-1, it is my strongest, usually between 80-86. I get 6-1 between 66-70, but it is the one channel that I get a couple of dropouts per hour.

I am not an expert on the tropo conditions, but I have noticed the same thing. KUSA is the one RP station that is normally a good signal for me and lately it has gotten worse. Tonight I gave up on 9 before the game even started and watched KOAA with a great signal (which is normal for my location) After the game I couldn't even get a lock on 9 so I tried 4 which is usually my worst and it was slightly better than 9 but still not viewable.

The only reason I dont just watch the Colorado Springs stations is the local news but I am about to change my mind

Wow The game tonight was coming in so good on 9.1 that I did not watch in on HD D*

I had no audio issues or pixialization at all during the whole game. At least Cuttler has shown he can rise to the occasion when the team needs him. Only real miscue was the interception.

The tropo must have been very good tonight. And the lowering of signal strength for some of the locals was really evident tonight.

During halftime of the Broncos debacle - turnoveritis - I checked the signal strength on channels. KUSA was down to 73 when it's normally 81-82. KFCT was up to 93 when it's normally about 75. KGWN was at 81 when it's normally low 60's. KCNC was at 67 when normally it's at 71-72.

I'd guess that A4Short had a stronger signal strength on KUSA than I did and I had a stronger signal strength on KFCT & KGWN than he did. It seems that when tropo is good, local stations' signals fly right over and past us somewhat and those that are local elsewhere, like KFCT and KGWN, fly over and past Ft. Collins right into my antenna.

Perhaps Ken from SLC, who frequently visits this thread, can offer some explanation.

I did see some significant pixelation/macroblocking on KUSA tonight. The most noticable was the orange on the Bronco's jerseys appeared smeared when the camera was changed to a closeup of the huddle. The sound also appeared to be in 5.1 although I didn't actually check it. I could clearly hear the infamous IN-COM-PLETE from the crowd when Seattle didn't complete a pass out of my rear speakers. I thought KUSA couldn't do 5.1 yet, but I guess they upgraded.

For the first time, I was able to pick up a signal on 9.1. It didn't stay locked the entire game, but I had it for a while.

Now tonight 9.1 is fine ( as it normally is)

9.1 is usually OK for me (except for when they go into 480i to do a local spot like "Look how many emmys we have we are great watch our crappy news team!" and forget to go back to 1080i for the game), but nowhere near as stable as 7.1. KUSA really needs to get rid of that 9.2 nonsense as the picture quality on 9.1 is too often fill of MPEG motion artifacts and it needs all of the bandwidth it can get. In my opinion they should trash MPEG2 altogether and go with a real codec that is actually somewhat decent.

Living downtown I get 9.1 with good signal strength but have an odd problem with them. Coming out of one or more commercial breaks during Heros each week they have a bad cut over which sends out some code my DISH 921 doesn't like. The reading goes from being paused 40 minutes to something like 1400. I'll get to the point where there is the problem after a commercial break and the audio/video sticks and stutters for a three or four seconds. I can usually watch through the program but if I try to scan or jump anywhere before the problem area, the program starts over or gets stuck and reboots. Very annoying. It happens every week during Heros but I've only seen it once on another 9.1 program. This week I also had a problem with audio/video glitches every 10 seconds for a few minutes, three quarters of the way through Heros.

It's a shame we're still having these small, unique problems so many years after they started broadcasting a digital signal.

Today is the KWGN Board of Adjustment open hearing at the Taj. Unfortunately, I got a last minute job and cannot attend. Anybody elese going and if so, please report back.

KWGN Open Hearing
JeffCo Taj
9am

NBC "Today" ran a story, just as I walked in the door this morning (caught most of it), that said a new study shows cell phones (and their RF Radiation) don't cause cancer!

Wonder if any (S)CARE members saw it?

NBC "Today" ran a story, just as I walked in the door this morning (caught most of it), that said a new study shows cell phones (and their RF Radiation) don't cause cancer!

Wonder if any (S)CARE members saw it?
I saw this in an article in the Boulder Daily Camera this morning.

Boulder Camera Article On Cell Phone Cancer Risk (http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2006/dec/06/study-cell-phones-dont-trigger-cancer/)

The same cell phone story is also in the Post today.

I heard that the KWGN's Jeffco adjustment hearing yesterday went very well. They will hear the final decision on 12/20.

A positive vote will overturn the legal non-conforming decision made back in 1998. This will make their larger tower conforming so they will be able to use their big tower for DTV.

I heard that the KWGN's Jeffco adjustment hearing yesterday went very well. They will hear the final decision on 12/20.

A positive vote will overturn the legal non-conforming decision made back in 1998. This will make their larger tower conforming so they will be able to use their big tower for DTV.
Thanks for the report and the optimism, but I'll believe it only when I see it. For some 'strange' reason I find myself very skeptical about anything from Jeffco regarding towers.

Living downtown I get 9.1 with good signal strength but have an odd problem with them. Coming out of one or more commercial breaks during Heros each week they have a bad cut over which sends out some code my DISH 921 doesn't like. The reading goes from being paused 40 minutes to something like 1400. I'll get to the point where there is the problem after a commercial break and the audio/video sticks and stutters for a three or four seconds. I can usually watch through the program but if I try to scan or jump anywhere before the problem area, the program starts over or gets stuck and reboots. Very annoying. It happens every week during Heros but I've only seen it once on another 9.1 program. This week I also had a problem with audio/video glitches every 10 seconds for a few minutes, three quarters of the way through Heros.

It's a shame we're still having these small, unique problems so many years after they started broadcasting a digital signal.

I hear ya. I'm also downtown, and also experience issues every week with Heroes. (Pretty good show by the way, too bad we have to wait until next year for more) This week when I turned it on it wasn't even broadcasting in HD, so I switched to D* SD. Did they finally get it fixed? My girlfriend gets annoyed when I switch back and forth during the show, she just doesn't have the same appreciation for PQ. ;)

KUSA frequently forgets to "flip the switch." They were showing it initially in the letterboxed format and I think switched to the full screen HD feed after the first commercial. Maybe by 2009, this stuff will be more automated.

KUSA frequently forgets to "flip the switch." ........................Maybe by 2009, this stuff will be more automated.
Yeh, then KUSA can screw things up automatically, they won't have to hire someone to forget, the computer will do it for them.......they could spend money on a better system, but then what would they use to pay for all those self promotion spots they televise about how they are the 'leaders in HD'??
:mad:

KUSA frequently forgets to "flip the switch." They were showing it initially in the letterboxed format and I think switched to the full screen HD feed after the first commercial. Maybe by 2009, this stuff will be more automated.

Heck my 36" Sony can figure out if it has a digital feed and switch accordingly. It doesn't seem to be a tough problem technically. By 2009, there should be no need because everything should come through in the correct mode from the network.

EMERGENCY, WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT

I hope you all are sitting down when you read this. (sCARE included) You are not going to believe this. Finally, there is some earthshaking news regarding the Lookout Mt. Tower situation.

Lake Cedar Group has gotten a bill into Congress (The legislation is SB 4092) that will allow feds to override local zoning on telecomunications. It passed the Senate today!!!
But, it still needs to pass the House of Representatives.

THEY ARE VOTING FRIDAY, so we all need to call them ASAP to show our support. (Even leaving a message at their offices tonight)

Please call the following offices as soon as possible and tell them that 9 years without HDTV is enough and you want free over the air HDTV in Denver and you support the pending legislation.
--------------------------------

I recommend calling as the vote is tomorrow (Friday) and an email may take too long to get read. (But doing both can't hurt either)

Representative Tom Tancredo 202.225.7882
District Office 720.283.9772
720.283.7575
*or here to send Representative Tancredo an email
http://tancredo.house.gov/contact/contact_contacttom.shtml

Representative Diana DeGette 202.225.4431
District Office: 303.844.4988
*or here to send Representative DeGette an email
http://www.house.gov/degette/comment.shtml

Representative Mark Udall 202.225.2161
District Offices: 303.650.7820
970.827.4154
*or here to send Representative Udall an email
http://markudall.house.gov/HoR/CO02/Contact+Mark/Contact+Mark.htm

Representative Marilyn Musgrave 202.225.4676
District Offices 970.201.1158
*or here to send Representative Musgrave an email
http://musgrave.house.gov/contactform/

----------------
The city of Golden found out about this tonight and went ballistic.

Whoa. Here's a link to congress.org on this bill: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/bills/?billnum=S.4092&congress=109&size=full

I just called all our Represntatives and left messages asking for their support on the bill. Come on guys, if takes 5 minutes, if we all just do it, this whole tower issue will be resolved that fast when they vote on Friday.

If anything, do it to finally shut sCARE up... once and for all!!!!!!

I sent messages to them all.

WE NEED THIS. DO IT!

Thanks Ernie. I don't think we need to bother Allard and Salazar, as they were the sponsors in the Senate. Interesting how LCG worked this and was able to get bipartisan support. I hope they have it lined up for the House vote, too (I still made my call). I could not access the text of the bill on the congress.org site (or any others), but the title makes it seem pretty limited in scope (since I'm normally not a fan of giving the Feds more powers, but in this case lets hope they don't have to use them - and that it doesn't come back to bite us in the future).

I just sent messages to them all. I don't know what prompted me to look at my email at this late hour, but, it must have been fortuitous because I made it in time. Let's hope this works! Post number 600 is no big deal, but maybe that makes a difference. I also called them all and left messages.

I emailed Musgrave. This should be an issue she's interested in, since her consituency is on the eastern plains--there's no way most of her area can receive OTA HD right now.

-Sarah

Thanks Ernie, I missed this one. I sent my email and will phone M. Udall's office tomorrow. Just for the heck of it I sent an email to the other congressmen as well. Thanks again for the tip.

[CURMUDGEON MODE ON]
Just a cynical afterthought about this bill. I just had a vision of the bill passing and (S)CARE and Golden taking it to the Supreme Court, with the hearing date scheduled for April 1, 2011 (of course it will take a few years to get through the appeals courts).
:eek:
[/CURMUDGEON MODE OFF]

...Please call the following offices as soon as possible and tell them that 9 years without HDTV is enough and you want free over the air HDTV in Denver and you support the pending legislation.

I recommend calling as the vote is tomorrow (Friday) and an email may take too long to get read. (But doing both can't hurt either)

Done. Emails sent tonight. Phone calls tomorrow.

The city of Golden found out about this tonight and went ballistic.

Ya, well when you are an ass, things tend to bite you. :)

Article from the Denver Post today about the tower bill:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4801304

I don't see it covered in the Rocky today.

Full text of the bill:

SECTION 1. CLARIFICATION OF CERTAIN LAND USE IN JEFFERSON COUNTY, COLORADO.

Notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations, and subject to all applicable Federal laws and regulations, any person that holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, located on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County in the State of Colorado, may, at such location, construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate such antenna or tower, or both, and all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts, if such antenna or tower is of the same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or tower at such location.
source (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.4092:)

Woah... Fireballs in the sky, and a bill in Congress to get an HDTV Tower on Lookout.

Freaky Friday, indeed. :)

-John

Done. Thanks for the heads-up Ernie!

Does anyone know if the corresponding House Bill has been introduced yet? If so, do you know the number? I'm not sure it's been introduced yet.

If it hasn't happened yet, it might actually be best if we find a representative to sponsor the bill in the House. I'm writing Musgrave to ask her to do just that.

I believe the Senate bill is S.4092 and it will come up for vote today. They must get it in before they ajourn the session.

I just checked again and not a peep on either sCARE's or City & Mountain Views websites. They're asleep at the wheel... Too bad, so sad. But, when I was walking the dog this morning, I did hear some screaming from the other side of the hill, I think Mayor Baroch just found out. He wasn't in the Golden City Council session last night.

If it hasn't happened yet, it might actually be best if we find a representative to sponsor the bill in the House. I'm writing Musgrave to ask her to do just that.

I just called and asked her office to sponsor a version in the house.

-Glen

I believe the Senate bill is S.4092 and it will come up for vote today. They must get it in before they ajourn the session.


I think that S.4092 has already passed the Senate.

I cannot find an equivalent H.R. bill. But you are right, it must be passed before they adjourn, or the Senate bill will have to be reintroduced.

Thanks for the heads up in the N. Colorado thread, jcloudm! I am calling Musgrave's office right now!

Woah... Fireballs in the sky, and a bill in Congress to get an HDTV Tower on Lookout.Well, I always expected the politicos come in at some point and put a stop to this circus, rather than let OTA go dark in Denver. I just expected it to happen at the state level rather than the national level, and somewhat later than now. In retrospect, it seems like the recent advertising campaign by LCG was not so much to convince the Jeffco officials (who weren't really going to listen anyway) but rather to give our congressional respresentatives an excuse to take up the issue on behalf of all Coloradans.

From long experience, though, I'm not counting on this until we have an Act with Dubya's signature.

"Congress has a right to debate, but this last-minute bill is why people hate government," said Golden City Manager Mike Bestor.This is from the Post's story. Isn't that like the Pot calling the kettle black? No different than his sneaky, hostile Eminent Domain takeover attempt?

I just talked to a page in my Congressman's office (Udall) and encouraged a yes vote on S. 4092, Jefferson County telecommunications bill. He stated he would pass that on to Mr. Udall.

Don

This is from the Post's story. Isn't that like the Pot calling the kettle black? No different than his sneaky, hostile Eminent Domain takeover attempt?
Ernie, I liked your comment so much, I used it in the Hot Off The Press thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9112506#post9112506)

I also submitted the news story to EngadgetHD - perhaps we can get some support from outside of Colorado for this.

Well, I always expected the politicos come in at some point and put a stop to this circus, rather than let OTA go dark in Denver. I just expected it to happen at the state level rather than the national level, and somewhat later than now. In retrospect, it seems like the recent advertising campaign by LCG was not so much to convince the Jeffco officials (who weren't really going to listen anyway) but rather to give our congressional respresentatives an excuse to take up the issue on behalf of all Coloradans.

From long experience, though, I'm not counting on this until we have an Act with Dubya's signature.
Boy, I couldn't agree with you more. I tried for several years to get my state representatives to bring this up in Denver without much success, other than the usual political lip service. At least here in Boulder, once the Eldorado thing died, the local reps really lost interest. Years ago during my letter writing days to the FCC, one of my letters was forwarded to Mark Udall and although he expressed support, his return letter made no mention of any possible Federal intervention. I actually had a talk with him for a bit on election night a few weeks back and it never crossed my mind to bring up the subject. Go figure.

I think we may have to give Pete M. some kudos for this one. I would guess his firm was involved in laying the groundwork for this idea. As a few others expressed, I am a 'bit' concerned about the Feds getting involved in local land use, but it seems the bill is so specific that this will not likely open the flood gates for future interference by the FCC in other areas. Only time will tell.

https://www.hdhuddle.com/

Samsung & Best Buy talk to you about HDTV, plus meet Ed. It says that there are still 91 spots left. It's at the BBY at Park Meadows Mall.



BTW, a little late but thanks so much for posting this. I never would have known about it otherwise and Eddie Mac is still my wife's favorite of all time. He's probably number one or two on her list (of men she would leave me for, and a lot of days it's probably a very long and not very exclusive list ;) ) It really made her day to get her #87 jersey autographed.

There wasn't a single serious HDTV question asked, pretty much just a meet-and-greet. I crossed over to the dark side and got Comcast for my HDTV, but I'm glad I still lurk around this thread just to keep my righteous indignation percolating at the Jeffco clown show. Gotta love a county commisioner election where the choices are bad and worse. Wait, that seems to be most of the elections anymore!

I think that S.4092 has already passed the Senate.

I cannot find an equivalent H.R. bill. But you are right, it must be passed before they adjourn, or the Senate bill will have to be reintroduced.When I called one of the congressmen/women's offices this morning, one of the folks who answered the phone responded in a way that made me think the bill would come up for vote in the House today. There's a web site that shows votes in the House that appears to be updated pretty quickly (after something actually happens). It appears that they vote on the Senate bills without creating an equivalent House bill or resolution. But I'm not sure the actual status of the bill is updated quickly.

http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html

Done

Also did a cut and paste Ernie of your post on a local Audi Forum

EMERGENCY, WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT

Representative Marilyn Musgrave 202.225.4676
District Offices 720.201.1158
*or here to send Representative Musgrave an email
http://musgrave.house.gov/contactform/



I have contacted Marilyn ... Please note, the number above (720)* Is wrong. It changed 2 years ago (you get a nice lady that is very polite ... but not Marilyn).

The correct number is: (970) 663-3536

(Ernie can you correct your post?)

http://musgrave.house.gov/Contact/

# Matt

What if Beauprez is our Congressman? Is he still voting? Or does distric 7 have no voice right now?

"Congress has a right to debate, but this last-minute bill is why people hate government," said Golden City Manager Mike Bestor.

"Golden's City Council is very disappointed in both senators for this last-minute, under-the- cover-of-darkness, special-interest legislation that pre-empts local government's right to decide land-use issues," Bestor said.
Yup, but you'll get no sympathy from me! :p I've taken it 'in the shorts' many times due to the standard Washington 'behavior'. It's refreshing to see the shoe on the other foot for once!

What must really piss off the Golden elite, is that a Republican senator(one of them :eek: ) cosponsored the bill.

I guess the next stop for 'ol sCARE is the Supreme Court. But who knows if they'll even hear it?

The good news, is that when the bill is passed, it clears the way for TPW-DT to(once the property is obtained) put a brand new tower up on Lookout to serve our customers!

In memory of sCARE, Boulder and the precious mountain backdrop, I think that we'll paint it PINK! :D
....jc

I was out most of the day yesterday, so I checked my email pretty late last night. Thanks for info, Ernie. I called Rep. Tancredo last night and left a message.

I think if this bill passes the House today, it's a done deal. I don't think Dubya has any well connected friends in Golden and I don't see any other reason for him to veto it.

The correct number is: (970) 663-3536

(Ernie can you correct your post?)

http://musgrave.house.gov/Contact/
Fixed. I got the info from LCG late last night. And when I called all of them, I called the washington office numbers as I knew this vote was going to happen today and they might not get the local messages in time.

What must really piss off the Boulder elite, is that a Republican senator(one of them :eek: ) cosponsored the bill. Golden, not Boulder. Big Difference.

Allard was a vet from the plains, so I wouldn't expect his natural sympathies to lie with the NIMBY's from (s)CARE who want to keep his neighbors from getting OTA TV. But in any case, this particular legislative move could never get off the ground without the support of both senators - Allard AND Salazar. The fact that they are from opposite parties is a plus in this instance.

EMERGENCY, WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT

I hope you all are sitting down when you read this. (sCARE included) You are not going to believe this. Finally, there is some earthshaking news regarding the Lookout Mt. Tower situation.
----------------
The city of Golden found out about this tonight and went ballistic.

I wrote Terrible Tom right now. Can't stand him, but hopefully he'll do the right thing here.

And as far as the Golden city council goes... two words. One begins with an F. And the other doesn't.

Golden, not Boulder. Big Difference.
Sorry, brain fart. Changed.
....jc

I don't think Dubya has any well connected friends in Golden and I don't see any other reason for him to veto it.

He's only vetoed one piece of legislation in six years in office. I don't see him changing that trend anytime soon.

-Glen

I wish I knew if this passed already or not. sheesh.

It hasn't been raised in the House yet. You can follow along with the congressional proceedings here: http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html

Any word on how late this evening the House will remain in session ... and if it will be brought up?

BTW ... this is the first time that I have ever contacted my Rep about anything ... I hope it has a positive outcome!

# Matt

How will this bill get raised in the house?

Will it get raised automatically by virtue of it being passed by the senate or does a house member need to place it in the hopper and make noise until the speaker raises it or will there be a let's pass all the stuff the senate pass motion made at the end of the day? Any ideas? I haven't a clue.

-Glen

Any word on how late this evening the House will remain in session ... and if it will be brought up?

BTW ... this is the first time that I have ever contacted my Rep about anything ... I hope it has a positive outcome!

# Matt


By looking at this site, Congress's Web Site (http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html) , it looks like they worked until almost midnite the last few nights.

-Wabisabi

By looking at this site, Congress's Web Site (http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html) , it looks like they worked until almost midnite the last few nights.

-Wabisabi

Sweet. We should send em some coffee

It either passes or dies on the House desk today. Congress is intending to adjourn tonight for the holidays, terminating this session of Congress.

Don

What if Beauprez is our Congressman? Is he still voting? Or does distric 7 have no voice right now?

I contacted everyone Ernie had in his post when I got home this morning. I was supprised to get a call from my father. He read about in the paper so I am assuming the word is out. The only response I received back was from Diana DeGette.


Dear Friend,

Thank you for contacting my office. Unfortunately, due to the large
volume of mail I receive, I am only able to respond to constituents of the
First Congressional District of Colorado. Your comments have been noted
and are appreciated.

Sincerely,
Diana DeGette
Member of Congress

I would hope that S. 4092 is combined with some other H.R. bills or even the appropriation bill that is to be approved tonight. Then maybe the Prez would sign it. If the bill is not signed by the President within a certain amount of time (2 weeks?) after the session of Congress is adjourned, then we get the so called pocket veto.

Don

I think that if the House approves it and the President does not sign it, it becomes law within about 2 weeks.

I contacted everyone Ernie had in his post when I got home this morning. I was supprised to get a call from my father. He read about in the paper so I am assuming the word is out. The only response I received back was from Diana DeGette.


Dear Friend,

Thank you for contacting my office. Unfortunately, due to the large
volume of mail I receive, I am only able to respond to constituents of the
First Congressional District of Colorado. Your comments have been noted
and are appreciated.

Sincerely,
Diana DeGette
Member of Congress

Received the same automated responce.

I think that if the House approves it and the President does not sign it, it becomes law within about 2 weeks.

Normally, yes, but there's a twist in that if congress has adjourned, the bill does not become law. (The pocket veto referred to above.)

See http://clerk.house.gov/legisAct/legisFAQ.html#pres for details.

-Glen

I just saw a short report on 9 news. They had a quick comment from Marv Rockford. Adel said the House is expected to vote on the Bill soon.

How soon is soon? :(

No action as of 10:00 PM or so, and I suspect there is a huge pile of bills they'll need to get through before they adjourn.

I suspect the House will just punt and the bill will need to be introduced again in January, but given how busy the Dems will be pushing their own agenda there probably won't be time to reconsider this for several months.

So apparently no one here watches Letterman on KCNC-DT.

Last night, about 45 minutes in, it suddenly switched to the CSI episode that ran at 8:00 PM, and remained CSI for fifteen minutes and even played the first five minutes or so of Shark. Then it cut over to Craig Ferguson.

Similarly, during CSI's 8:00 PM run, there were two brief one second or so flashes of Shark.

Anyone else see this confusion on the part of KCNC's servers?

It looks like the House has finished with the important bills (Like proposed nuclear agreements) and are now tackling some Post Office law. I think we may be getting closer!

sCAREs web site (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/) has been updated.

According to The Library of Congress (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:S.4092:) the last major action was yesterday, and it's "Held at the Desk."

Does that mean it won't be coming up for vote tonight before they adjourn?

According to The Library of Congress the last major action was yesterday, and it's "Held at the Desk."That was yesterday in Senate and it passed there, Today it's at the House of Representatives and hopefully gets passed there tonight.

That was yesterday in Senate and it passed there, Today it's at the House of Representatives and hopefully gets passed there tonight.

If you look at yesterday's house actions ... scan down to 2:42 P.M. There you will see that they received a report that the senate has passed ... S. 4092 ...

I am still crossing my fingers on this ... come on, lets get this done folks.

# Matt

Ernie,

Hopefully...and I fervently hope and pray that it gets through. I have been around for about 5 of the 7 plus years we have been fighting this. At this late date, I can see no reason that they will take it up in the house. I kind of doubt that clearing the agenda is important enough to stay later than they have to. It is a crying shame. We had an opening, but maybe, likely, it is over. As bright as the folks are that even got it on the agenda, it seems that they mis-calculated.

Perhaps NEXT YEAR, though this is what a whole bunch of us have been saying for a long ...long time!!

(yeah I am disillusioned)

Phil P.

sCAREs web site (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/) has been updated.
From the (S)CARE web page
:eek: ............Senate Bill S4092 would allow any of the broadcasters on Lookout to
put up anything the FCC approves, regardless of Jeffco land use laws. It will not matter if the radiation harms our health, interferes with
our equipment or causes our real estate values to crash.

This bill would destroy everything we have worked for during the last
decade and subordinate all our property rights to the broacasters.
It is a huge violation of the 10th Amendment. It ignores the findings
of the CSU study that increasing amounts of RF (at levels 100 times
less than the FCC says is safe) cause increasing biological changes
in our body, the sworn testimony of numerous scientists, physicians,
engineers.

Although I must admit I am still skeptical about this all passing tonight, (what?? me skeptical of tower related issues....who could have seen that coming??), if it really did become law, it will be interesting to see how many (S)CARE members put their homes up for sale immediately to avoid that 'harmful radiation' being deluged upon all their homes. Save up your nickels and dimes, there should be some great bargains in the area as the 'true believers' of the (S)CARE tactics hit the road.
:rolleyes:

Actually, I think this will be a win for the LCG even if it doesn't pass. Given the obvious threat that it will come up again in Jan. anyway, it will have to weigh on the minds of the Commissioners when they finally meet to consider Judge Jackson's ruling. It might even give an 'out' to the members who can claim the Federal Bill will over-ride their votes anyway. If nothing else it will be the equivalent of a huge sledgehammer hanging over any future Jeffco proceedings on the subject.
:D

Wow, great news! At this late hour though (and after years of struggle and dissapointment) I must admit to being in the same camp as Phil P (and others).

I will check back in the morning but am not expecting good news.

Ebaneezer Scrooge

It's not looking good as the time passes. Damn, I was so hoping that finally Deb & Al would retire and head down to Boca Del Vista in their Prius's and run some homeowners association board. ;)

The house is scheduled to meet tomorrow:

http://www.house.gov/house/floor/thisweek.htm

-Sarah

Just a quick reminder for those of you with access to channels other than OTA, :) CSPAN1 has this evenings House proceedings live if you want to check in to see what is happening. Put your DVR's on if you want to take a shot at catching the exciting moment.
(It's a great channel, especially if you like watching paint dry!)

sCAREs web site (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/) has been updated.

Poetic justice. I used sCAREs link to send an email to Congressman Beauprez requesting his support for SB 4092.

I hope it is brought up tomorrow, as it's increasingly looking unlikely to be voted on tonight, as they'll be debating a caller ID spoofing bill until well after midnight. :(

Going through miscellaneous senate bills now...

I never thought I would watch C-Span... and certainly not this long!! :p

CH 9 news had a quick blurb on it around 10:15 pm. Brief interview w/ Allard and the infamous quote from the Mayor of Golden was about it. They did display the same tower rotating graphics as well.

# Matt

Here's a link to a Denver Post message board (http://www.denverpostbloghouse.com/2006/12/08/free-tv-vs-health/) regarding the tower issue. Amazing the misinformation still flying around out there.

This is why I'd never go into politics. Debating a pool drain cover bill - Whew, how cool is that!

This is why I'd never go into politics. Debating a pool drain cover bill - Whew, how cool is that!
It's called "Democracy In Action". It's nice to see there is nothing more serious in nature than poorly constructed pool drain covers going on in the country to consume the time of Congress. Although some might argue that the more time they spend on pool covers the less time they spend really 'mucking up' the real issues.

On a serious note, this is generally the time that all of the 'left overs' and 'loose ends' bills get picked up. It's amazing how nothing can get done in Congress until the night before a major vacation or the end of the session.

Gotta give them credit - they're still plowing away... 2am in DC.

It Passed !!!!!!

If I understood the rules correctly, S4092 was just passed without objection.
:D :D :D

Let the construction begin, at least until the court appeals.

It Passed !!!!!!

WooHoo! So when does Bush sign it? My neighbors will be happy to know that the tower on my roof might finally be close to coming down!

SWEET!

2:09 A.M. -
Mr. Barton (TX) asked unanimous consent to take from the Speaker's table and consider.

S. 4092:
to clarify certain land use in Jefferson County, Colorado

Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

On passage Passed without objection.

Yay!

"POP" "POP" "POP" "POP"

The sound you just heard was the sound of champagne corks popping across the front range of Colorado. This does lead a person to wonder why this couldn't have been done 5 years ago, but I guess we shouldn't look a gift horse........

BTW, anyone living in the Lookout area, please report on any emergency flight for life helicopters in the area, they may be transporting Deb C. and Al H. and a few others to the hospital in a state of shock or cardiac arrest. I think it may be too early to attribute any flights due to residents suffering from cancer from the high radiation amounts.

It passed!

http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html

2:09 AM! I guess it really was "under the cover of darkness"

:D :D :D
ROFLMAO

I think I woke up the rest of my house with my cheering! The big questions are:
When will the ground breaking ceremony (followed by a party in front of City Hall) be?

and secondly ... when will broadcasting commence?

# Matt

...............The big questions are:
When will the ground breaking ceremony (followed by a party in front of City Hall) be?

and secondly ... when will broadcasting commence?

# Matt
I think the party should be in front of (S)CARE HQ or maybe in front of Deb Carney's house. Just my $0.02.

If I recall they talked about 12- 18 months for the construction phase after the groundbreaking. Since it is now winter, 'ground breaking' may be a bit more of a challenge. I would think it is a safe bet we won't see anything from Lookout before Winter of 2008 to Spring 2009

I think the party should be in front of (S)CARE HQ or maybe in front of Deb Carney's house. Just my $0.02.

If I recall they talked about 12- 18 months for the construction phase after the groundbreaking. Since it is now winter, 'ground breaking' may be a bit more of a challenge. I would think it is a safe bet we won't see anything from Lookout before Winter of 2008 to Spring 2009

So when is the hot dog picnic up at Lookout?

Don

Alright!!! Only another few years to go to actually get the tower up there!

Actually I assume they will install it tomorrow (Saturday) and it will be working Sunday.

You know, it just occurred to me, with this new rule passing, the LCG probably no longer needs to offer the "open space" land to Jeffco and no longer needs to provide the money for continuous RF Emissions testing on the mountain. Let Jeffco and Golden pay for it. Although I would assume they still need the normal building permits, I think all bets are off on the rest of the offer. I suspect the LCG will still follow the original plan, but it would be funny if they decided to remove some of the 'sweeteners' from the pot for a while as a way of saying "thanks" to (S)CARE and the City Of Golden for the extra legal fees involved in the last 5 years.

Hey Ernie, don't tell me you gave up on "Democracy In Action" and went to bed on this historic occasion.

How many other cities in the country had to have a special bill passed in Congress to get HDTV towers built? This is truly historic. Once again Denver leads the way......
:rolleyes:

I just have been thinking about this ... with the way the bill is worded, all LCG members can now add digital transmitters to their current towers. Maybe there won't be a new tower and all can scramble to be the first on their current towers to broadcast full power Digital TV. Maybe sCARE finally shot themselves totally in the foot.

;)

# Matt

I just have been thinking about this ... with the way the bill is worded, all LCG members can now add digital transmitters to their current towers. Maybe there won't be a new tower and all can scramble to be the first on their current towers to broadcast full power Digital TV. Maybe sCARE finally shot themselves totally in the foot.

;)

# Matt
I think you are probably right on that, although the stories on both KUSA and KMGH tonight said they would build the single tower. My guess is it would take an extra year or two (that they don't have) to get permits to upgrade the existing facilities from the FCC. Not likely since the FCC has approved the current plan.

The good news in the wording is that the section you talk about appears to allow all future upgrades to the towers, so we won't have to go through this again in 10 years.
"may, at such location, construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate such antenna or tower, or both, and all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts.

This will allow them to update equipment, modify it, add new antennas etc. from now on without having to fight the Jeffco Commissioners every step of the way.


Still....!
:D :D :D
ROFLMAO

Poor Republic Plaza :(
Now they are going to loose all that revenue from the DTV Transmitters on their roof.

I hope the Stations take a step back and review what has to be done & do the bare minimum as an even bigger screw-you to sCARE.
Hell leave the old towers up too, for remote shots :D

Wow... do my eyes deceive me?

I stopped reading this thread a week ago because there wasn't whole lot going on. And tonight I decide to check in, and I almost fell out of my chair!

If I recall they talked about 12- 18 months for the construction phase after the groundbreaking. Since it is now winter, 'ground breaking' may be a bit more of a challenge. I would think it is a safe bet we won't see anything from Lookout before Winter of 2008 to Spring 2009

That seems an awful long way away. Towers can be built in a lot shorter period of time. For an example, go to http://vidiot.com/TVTower.html

I started documenting the construction well after it started. I knew it was going to happen, but missed the starting date, which was in the spring when all of the foundations were put into place. You'll see that the tower was done by the end of September and they were transmitting from it. It was basically a nine month project and that was a 1248 foot tower. Your new one is less than 800 feet.

If they start in the spring, you should be up and running long before fall 2007. It definately would suck if it has to take longer, for some strange reason.

If you read the LCG tower plans, they need to excavate and build a large, partially underground concrete "bunker" to hold the transmission and support equipment as well.

So it's not just a matter of erecting the tower; significant site infrastructure needs to be built as well.

This also assumes that:

1) Bush signs it, and

2) SCARE can't get a federal judge to stay the legislation as unconstitutional, pending review by the Supreme Court

Most of the people that oppose this don't have HDTV and don't really care since they watch TV and movies out of their 27 inch tube TV still. Well my health is at risk! I like HDTV because I don't need to squint when I watch, unlike the folks that are going to loose their vision watching standard TV.

Congrats !!!

After the tower gets built, y'all can just complain about operations like the rest of us poor slobs...

Finally.

At least one good thing came out of that last session. Now all you guys need is the construction permits to get approved on a timely basis. As I recall not-getting permits for the Morrison tower was the reason that didn't happen when it was supposed to.

I love this ending. SCARE got exactly what they deserved. Screwed by an end around run. Just what they've been trying to do to the viewing public. It also put the JeffCo Commissioners in their place. Gotta love it.

WooHoo!

BTW (S)Care members: I would now like to make a formal offer to purchase any of your radiation infested houses (which will soon be uninhabitable for $10,000.

You can just PM me the contract

sCAREs web site (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/) has been updated.
I just checked it and it has not been updated with the approval news. Can't wait to hear/see their reaction. They used unethical methods to attempt to achieve their personal mission, and now a completely legal (albeit sneaky) method was used to thwart them. Awesome!

It's great news about the passage of the bill but I'm sure since there's money involved by both parties I doubt all the legal wrangling is done. One can Hope.

If you are still talking about building permits, the local officials still have a mechanism to protract the beginning of construction. What the new bill does is limit their options for denying them. More importantly, the bill negates those convoluted 'digital towers are different from analog towers' kinds arguments that were presented as zoning violations.

Does it really matter to the Denver viewers if their TV signals are emitted from one new tower or the many existing towers? The latter case seems more probable because the available lead time to design and procure the new tower has been reduced to a scant two years.

--- CHAS

If you are still talking about building permits, the local officials still have a mechanism to protract the beginning of construction. What the new bill does is limit their options for denying them. More importantly, the bill negates those convoluted 'digital towers are different from analog towers' kinds arguments that were presented as zoning violations.
..................

--- CHAS

I think it is safe to assume that the Jeffco folks will drag their feet on all permits and inspections for everything that occurs on the mountain, which is one of the reasons I won't be surprised if it will still take at least two years.

BTW, another devious thought crossed my mind, I wonder how this impacts KRMA?? Since KRMA had their plan for Mt. Morrison blown up, since the bill was NOT station specific, it would seem that they can now legally upgrade anything on Lookout, or re-join the LCG and go back on the new tower. This bill did not discuss Morrison, so it basically places everything on Lookout forever............somehow it feels like justice for (S)CARE.



Still.........
:D :D :D
ROFLMAO

This is certainly good news to wake up to! I had followed the thread until 11 last night, so didn't read about the final passage until now.

I still want to see Dubya's signature, but I can't see any reason to believe we won't have that also in the near future.

And John, I think you are right about KRMA; I suspect they will re-join the consortium once things get a little farther along.

Another thing I wonder about is whether some of the stations will (if they can) reconsider their channel allocations, which were mostly adjacent in the original proposal (16,17,18,19,35).

Look what happens when you are stuck in a hotel without internet access!!!

This is great news for all who have been involved with this. I cannot believe that it is almost over (what will I have to complain about from now on?).

-Matt

Congrats LCG!!! Woo Hoo!!!

Yeah Geof, I did fall asleep watching C-Span. I missed it by about 15 minutes. We all need to get together for a party. I think I remember KCNC saying they would have it again at their Mountaintop retreat.

I also want to thank everybody here who made calls and emails to the Reps in the last 2 days, I truly want to think it made some difference.

Congrats LCG!!! Woo Hoo!!!

Yeah Geof, I did fall asleep watching C-Span. I missed it by about 15 minutes. We all need to get together for a party. I think I remember KCNC saying they would have it again at their Mountaintop retreat.

I also want to thank everybody here who made calls and emails to the Reps in the last 2 days, I truly want to think it made some difference.

Although I am sure the reps enjoyed our recent emails, I would guess this was a done deal as soon as the bill was written up. I do think the letters and emails over the last 6 years had a greater impact in setting up the 'slam dunk' situation, and for that I would also like to thank and congratulate everyone here who has contributed to this cause over the years (even our friend now living in Eden, NY). It's hard to believe what has transpired since our first 'get together' at the KRMA studios so many years ago.

BTW Ernie, way to go with that sleep thing.....I hope you had your DVR running. It makes a great re-run too. The best part is that after years and years of fighting, it only took about 2 minutes to settle this.

Still......!
:D :D :D
ROFLMAO

Although I am sure the reps enjoyed our recent emails, I would guess this was a done deal as soon as the bill was written up. Of course. There is no way to get a bill through at the last minute like this unless all of the major playors who might object have signalled their approval in advance. In this case that would mean both senators and at probably Tancredo as well (since it is in his district). With that agreement in place, then the leadership would be prepared to brush aside objections from anyone else as "this is a local matter, none of your business".

But all this is just the last act of the play, and would not have happened without the recent efforts by LCG to bring the issue to the fore, and the evidence of public support that they received. That's what made the key Colorado congresscritters willing to take the risk.

Of course. There is no way to get a bill through at the last minute like this unless all of the major playors who might object have signalled their approval in advance. In this case that would mean both senators and at probably Tancredo as well (since it is in his district). With that agreement in place, then the leadership would be prepared to brush aside objections from anyone else as "this is a local matter, none of your business".

But all this is just the last act of the play, and would not have happened without the recent efforts by LCG to bring the issue to the fore, and the evidence of public support that they received. That's what made the key Colorado congresscritters willing to take the risk.
Exactly my point. I like the phrase "the last act of the play". This doesn't occur without all of the groundwork in advance and the reps certainly looked at the support we all provided over the years. Thanks for putting the words to it.

Another reason I suspect the reps all jumped in (especially Allard) is that this tower will be completed or near completion in Nov. 2008. Allard will be up for re-election then as will all of the House members. Now without trying to sound like a 'conspiracy nut', I would guess being able to pose for photos in front of the new structure while everyone in the front range are tuning in OTA HD on their rabbit ears again wouldn't hurt a campaign. Joe Sixpack may not pay attention to politics, but he will remember who brings his TV channels to him. By then (hopefully), the few thousand (S)CARE supporters will be a distant memory.

I'm not sure I understand why building a new tower is necessary. Can't they just replace the analog transmitter with a digital one on one of the existing towers?

I also think we shouldn't get too excited yet. I'll bet there are all sorts of things SCARE and Jeffco can do to delay and/or thwart efforts to get the project started. If they can delay it for 2 more years, won't LCG be forced to build elsewhere? I doubt LCG will allow analog to be turned off without an operating digital one in place.

:D

Editorial In Dec. 9 Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/editorials/article/0,2777,DRMN_23964_5201258,00.html)

Great breakfast reading with your coffee!

Allard will be up for re-election then as will all of the House members. Allard made a big point of 'term-limiting' himself to twelve years when first elected. While it wouldn't be a first for a politician to break a promise, I really don't expect him to run again. I consider it more likely that Owens will be the one to try and keep it for the elephants.

Tower letter to the editor...Denver Post, Dec. 9 (http://www.denverpost.com/letters/ci_4806337)

This also might be a good time to send a "thank you" email to our elected representatives.

Although we all enjoy seeing the sCARE cronies get screwed, I don't believe it's appropriate for LCG to do any less than they've promised as far as monitoring, taking down the old towers in a timely fashion, etc. Basic ethics. But I won't be sorry if the whiners lose a little (or a lot) of the value of their homes - not that I think that's really going to happen.

I don't see how any homes could lose value because the number of towers are going to be reduced from 4 to 1 (or possibly none).

Just checked in. Woo Hoo. All those mindless hours I spent listening to wacko testimony before the Jeffco commissioners before I could speak my own piece. And then to have one commissioner suggest I might need the sherriff to escort me out of the building as I was telling what I viewed at the truth. True justice!

And, I agree a few polite emails to our congressmen would be in order. Especially to Allard and Salazar who represent us all. If Jeffco tries any more bullying tactics like holding up building permits, etc., a few strategic phone calls from our Senators to Jeffco would go a long way. The people have spoken and Deb and her cronies can just shut up. I wonder if Deb has any other knowledge of law that she can fall back on.

And the RMN editorial was right on target. Well written. Especially now that the bill has passed.

Nice way to wake up on a lovely Saturday morning. Very good news, indeed! Big congrats to Marv, Pete, and the whole gang that has been fighting this since the last millenium!

I'm not sure I understand why building a new tower is necessary. Can't they just replace the analog transmitter with a digital one on one of the existing towers?


Certainly they can use the current towers. But, if they have elected to change channel assignments, they will need a new antenna and, perhaps, transmission line. The law facilitates these kinds of modifications by limiting argument concerning the conditions of 'Grandfathering' that allows the existing towers to stand as structures that do not conform to current zoning. My guess is the broadcasters will use the existing structures to meet the FCC deadlines and to buy time to clear the roadblocks impeding the new construction.

Why a single new tower on Lookout?

1) Well, the existing towers are getting old and old things are expensive to maintain. A new tower can be constructed with modern materials that resist weathering and the associated maintenance complications. The consolidated approach allows the partners to share their operational expenses.

2) The DTV transition is a perfect opportunity to upgrade the entire technical infrastructure to Twenty First Century standards.

2) The signal coverage from lookout is well understood reducing the probability of 'Digital' surprises.

4) One tower looks better than a tower farm so I hope they do put some effort into its physical appearance. I never understood the mountain backdrop preservation argument) :eek:

--- CHAS

Well, Well, Well ME of so little faith. I am overjoyed that I was wrong and that this bill got through the house intact!!! I still have reservations about the exact effect going forward. I see that the SCARE web site is already talking about violations of amendment 10. They have countered every advance in the past with legal wranglings. Deb et al are absolute fanatics about this subject and seem to have the time and money to continually throw wrenches into things. If they can get a federal judge to rule that the law violates the constitution, we would be in for several more years of delays, If LCG even cared to fight it to the supreme court that is.

I hate to seem negative, as this bill is definitely the most positive thing that has happened in the last couple of years. But I have to be realistic. I have a terrible feeling that the SCARE mongers are not going to tuck tail and run on this!

At least we can celebrate for the moment
:) :)

Phil P.

My hat is off to the folks at LCG for the way they have handled this. LCG has tried for many years to be a good neighbor and corporate citizen by doing everything in their power to mitigate the concerns of the local residents. LCG has offered many compromises and adjustments to their rezoning plan in an effort to appease the locals. Reducing the number of towers, future monitoring of RF levels, environmentally sensitve construction and a host of other concessions are proof of their good faith effort to do the right thing.
When all of the time and money that LCG has invested over the past several years appeared to be going for naught, they devise this inspired strategy. The TV ads that we all thought were long overdue were designed to educate the general public and to protect our senators in the event they agreed to sponsor this bill. The decision to submit this bill during the waning hours of this Congressional session allowed for a short and virtually painless resolution to their objective.
Only time will tell if LCG will continue to be a good corporate citizen and live up to all of the stipulations in their most recent rezoning application. It would appear that this legislation may allow them to follow a different, less expensive course and just replace transmitters and/or antennas. I believe that eight years of exhaustive efforts to address the concerns of the local residents is an accurate measure of how they will proceed with this project.

Congratulations to Lake Cedar Group and all of us OTA HD enthusiasts!

Time to celebrate!! I didnt see this until late last night and then couldn't stay up since I work today but this morning made up for it! We can hope that Golden and sCARE will see that they have no outside support left, even the RMN is calling them NIMBYs. Delaying the construction will actually have a negative effect since unless the bill is declared unconstitutional there is nothing they can do to stop the stations from upgrading the old towers so the choice is one tower or four.

Perhaps the proposed Federal legislation will get Jefco County Commissioners to act in a responsible way by voting to accept the current LCG proposal. One can Hope. I imagine the
commissioners will want to get the best deal for Jefco which would be the current LCG proposal. -- reduced number of towers -- land -- etc. If they, (s)CARE and Golden continue to fight LCG may just retrofit their existing towers. That would be a loss to Jefco. Wise up commissioners!

No reporting or editorializing yet on Ch 2, 4, 7, 20, or 31 websites. 9news.com has a late interview with Allard, prior to the passage.
Iwanthd just said that LCG has tried to be a good neighbor for years about all this, and I think they should provide tin foil to shield all these windows on Lookout Mt. Like a good neighbor!

It's not up to the commissioners at all. They are out of the picture. I believe the stations don't want to use existing towers, they want one new tower as the old towers are old and nearing replacement anyway.

Maybe its jumping the gun claiming the commissioners are out of the loop till the legislation is signed by the President. Don't they have a meeting on the 20th? If they accept the current LCG proposal then won't LCG get to build the "Consolidation" tower? Their approval may come before the President get's around to signing the legislation.

Congrats To All!

If the timeline is correct, I missed the bill on CSPAN by about 15 minutes. :( The 1st time that I've really watched it. So, much for an exciting Friday night!

Certainly they can use the current towers. But, if they have elected to change channel assignments, they will need a new antenna and, perhaps, transmission line. The law facilitates these kinds of modifications by limiting argument concerning the conditions of 'Grandfathering' that allows the existing towers to stand as structures that do not conform to current zoning. My guess is the broadcasters will use the existing structures to meet the FCC deadlines and to buy time to clear the roadblocks impeding the new construction.
Well maybe. This and everything else in this country concern money. The idea for a consolidated tower was based on money(and a few other things). So, my guess is that if they don't really need a new tower, it won't happen. I think that it really depends on 2 things:

Do their existing towers need to be replaced(due to age)?
Will their existing towers be able to handle the additional weight and wind load of a new antenna & transmission lines?

If the answer to the 1st question is No and the answer to the 2nd question is Yes, then what are the chances that a new tower gets built?

If they could use the existing towers, the timeline could be speeded up quite a bit. And, we would have higher power Digital Broadcasts much sooner. Probably at less cost than building a new tower.

If they do deceide to utilize the existing towers, let's just hope that what happened to KETV in Omaha, doesn't happen to us!(BOOM) :o

It'll be interesting to see what happens.
....jc

Does anyone have any direct contact with Pete or anyone with LCG? I would really be interested to hear what their thoughts on this are now! I wonder if they are thinking that they will just get started on the new tower in the short term (as in, as soon as the bill gets signed into law).

Phil P.

I'll ask Pete and Marv and let everybody know what their thoughts are. The existing towers are over 50 years old. I can't imagine they would want to continue using them. They will eventually have to replace the towers and/or all the hardware on them (feed lines to the top, guy wires etc) And it will no doubt cost more later. It makes toal sense to do it all now and be done with it for another 50 years.

The more I think about it, LCG really took advantage of a golden opportunity (no pun intended). The tower is technically in Tancredo's district, but almost all the people fighting it are in Beauprez's district. Beauprez is outta there after this session, so he had nothing to lose - and Perlmutter probably was glad to have it settled before he got there. So it was really a win-win for all of them to get this done now.

Maybe its jumping the gun claiming the commissioners are out of the loop till the legislation is signed by the President. Don't they have a meeting on the 20th? If they accept the current LCG proposal then won't LCG get to build the "Consolidation" tower? Their approval may come before the President get's around to signing the legislation.

This may be true but highly unlikely. Let's all remember that an injunction is in place and needs to be removed before the building permit can be issued. Certainly once the bill becomes law, LCG will immediately file a motion to remove the injunction. We will see what Judge Jackson does then. I am anxiously waiting to see how long it will take to remove the injunction. It should be interesting. Certainly he cannot ignore the new law.

Don

WOW. Isn't it amazing 7 years vs. 3 days
Following is a link to 9news. Most of it is old news, but is an interesting article anyway.
Link (http://www.9news.com/) .Go to Bill could end 7-year TV tower battle. According to this article Marv stated that they still plan to proceed with the new tower. If you listen to Allard you will understand why he did what he did. Thanks Wayne.

In early December
a day to remember
Denver's HD
was freed.

Greedy Golden,
Jeffco so scolding,
sCARE's factor,
disappeared.

The haze cleared,
a stunning picture appeared,
a purple mountain's majesty
on rabbit ears.

:)

-John

I just sent thank you emails to Sen. Allard & Salazar and Rep. Tancredo. They probably don't get too many kudos, and if one is ever appropriate, it certainly is in this case - no-cost, bi-partisan, etc.

In the near future, I'm looking forward to removing the monstrosity that is on my roof. Pic attached.

In the near future, I'm looking forward to removing the monstrosity that is on my roof. Pic attached.

Go to your neighbors and say, "okay, you win. I'm willing to go without the antenna if you guys will take it down for me and buy me two large pizzas." I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige. :p

This is great news to all of us. This is the most exciting. two days I have had following this thread since we were all trying to get the first post on the page! Lets bring on the party at the mountain. I,ll bring the burgers! :D :D :D

Hopefully KWGN will benefit from this legislation too and be able to throttle up to full power.

I'm really happy for you guys but I suspect there are going to be more bumps in the road ahead. I can't imagine SCARE quitting this now but they have to be demoralized by this latest development. I can't say I feel sorry that they're bummed out this Holiday Season though...:)

Of all the possible developments that I could imagine in this fiasco, I gave this one a very low probabilty of happening.

Boy am I glad I was wrong. As others have stated, I don't think this will suddenly make sCARE and Golden cower and whimper in the corner while the process flows smoothly. However, LCG finally has serious firepower at their fingertips if the NIMBYs throw up any more legal roadblocks.

My question though is whether the LCG members spend any money to get full power broadcasts on the current towers while the new one is being built. I doubt that will happen, but I wish it would. Telling my wife that PBS-HD will be available in 3-5 months instead of 2+ years will be much better for my health. :D

My question though is whether the LCG members spend any money to get full power broadcasts on the current towers while the new one is being built. I doubt that will happen, but I wish it would. Telling my wife that PBS-HD will be available in 3-5 months instead of 2+ years will be much better for my health. :DTwo quick things:

1) KRMA is not part of LCG; they wanted to put their tower on Mt. Morrison (which recently got shot down), so it's unknown whether with the new legislation they will upgrade their Lookout facility instead.

2) Given the pitiful amount of HD programming KRMA actually shows these days, there's no reason for excitement here. I think it's literally four hours daily; the rest of the time they show the SD "Create" channel instead, bleah. PBS-HD has some great programming, we just don't get to see it any longer.

Two quick things:

1) KRMA is not part of LCG; ................
...........
They were included in the original proposal. In fact James Morgese was the original head of the LCG group. Marv took over when KRMA left to go to Morrison. I believe the FCC did approve the original application submitted by the LCG with KRMA included. I would think, if the LCG agreed, they could dust off the original proposal. I don't think that is likely to happen, I am just speculating that it may be a possibility. AFAIK, since the Morrison plan 'blew up', KRMA had talked about the RB, but nothing else. It would seem they now have a few more options to consider. I would hope they would stay off of the RB as people would have to use antenna rotators to pick them up if everything else is on Lookout.

Well... I don't know all of the details of the LCG arrangements and the technical limitations of the new tower proposal, but I would think that LCG would be likely to welcome any broadcaster that was willing to split the cost of the tower.

All of these guys are about saving money in the modern era of low ad revenues, and the more entities paying for the tower, the less each entity has to contribute. I realize that the situation is probably much more complicated than that, but hopefully not so much more so that this notion is completely moot.

As for the PBS-HD programming, I realize it isn't all that on KRMA. But my wife apparently has some specific programs that she liked I guess. Perhaps KRMA could save enough $$ by rejoining LCG that they could improve their programming? That's presuming, of course, that it's due to a technical limitation and not a silly political or business limitation.

YEEEE-HAAAAW!!! :D :D :D :D

I hope you guys are right about KRMA. I never liked the idea of them moving to Morrison. Maybe we can get KBDI to move too! ;)

SECTION 1. CLARIFICATION OF CERTAIN LAND USE IN JEFFERSON COUNTY, COLORADO.

Notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations, and subject to all applicable Federal laws and regulations, any person that holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, located on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County in the State of Colorado, may, at such location, construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate such antenna or tower, or both, and all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts, if such antenna or tower is of the same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or tower at such location.

If you look at the wording of the law, it says a person who holds a permit to build blah blah blah. It seems to me that this wording is meant to apply only to the LCG stations. KRMA doesn't hold a permit to build on Lookout, do they? Of course, I suppose, depending on how you read the law, KRMA could apply to the FCC to move from Morrison to Lookout. Then they would be a "person who holds a permit..."

In fact, why don't we lobby all of the stations to move to Lookout. We could eliminate the need for antenna rotors and make the sCARE folks really happy at the same time. :D

First of all, I want to point out I am just speculating on my own, not because I 'heard through the grapevine', or talked to a contact at KRMA. My guess is they are reading this thing with their lawyers too. I suspect the law was intended to provide cover only for the LCG stations, but they (IMO) covered their existing towers and locations in case someone chose to 'opt out' and stay with their existing facility.

The section
"approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both"

at least to me, does NOT imply that the permit to install must already be approved. Since I assume the legal wording is meant to allow future upgrades as well, to me it simply reads if you apply to the FCC and get our approval, you are good to go. This would seem to allow KRMA to upgrade their existing tower. The FCC had also previously approved the LCG plan which did include KRMA as well. I am simply wondering how far this extends. I have to believe the wording was chosen to allow future potential upgrades etc. so the stations would not have to go through Congress again 10 years from now just to swap out and put up a new antenna on the tower. Obviously that would be approved by the FCC at that time. I am not a lawyer, maybe one can comment. YMMV

If you look at the wording of the law, it says a person who holds a permit to build blah blah blah. It seems to me that this wording is meant to apply only to the LCG stations.
Maybe. But, what is going to stop the FCC from approving a 'digital broadcast station or tower...' for anyone that wants one?

The real beauty of this legislation is, bend over sCARE, now LCG is not bound by any previous agreements, or promises. They are not restricted to a certain height(what was it going to be 730'?), and they can 'consolidate'.

They could more than likely, build a genuine Super Tower, and lease out space to, probably, just about anyone. And, no existing towers need to be removed. This is sCARE's worst nightmare.

But, they deserve it. History has pretty much proven that the people will prevail. Yet, those arrogant enough and stupid enough, will try to prove history, and the people don't matter. Sometimes they win, but most times they don't. Then, out of seemingly nowhere, this big foot stomps down and crushes the fools like a bug. Our recent elections and this new law are a good examples.

So, now Deb will have to find another cash cow, and the elite in Golden will have something else to bitch about at their 'Tea' parties. Life moves on, and 'We The People' is still the foundation of this country.
....jc

Maybe. But, what is going to stop the FCC from approving a 'digital broadcast station or tower...' for anyone that wants one?
..................jc
I don't think "anyone that wants one" applies. You would have to have an existing property and equipment on Lookout or be part of a consolidated tower plan with someone already there. KRMA may have already been approved in an earlier version of the LCG proposal and they already have property on Lookout, for example, KBDI does not (although they might fall under the umbrella of KRMA.. i.e. PBS.. but I think that is a real reach). We really would need a lawyer to look at the various permutations possible.

BTW, there still has NOT been an update to the (S)CARE web page since yesterday prior to the House 'vote'. Could this mean they have 'nothing to say'????
:cool:

I don't think "anyone that wants one" applies. You would have to have an existing property and equipment on Lookout or be part of a consolidated tower plan with someone already there.
I'd guess that a lawyer would have to give his opinion, but the phrase:
...any person that holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install...
Does not contain a timeframe, or that they must currently hold the permit. It looks to be purposely vague(Like SHREVA), in order to not exclude some possibilities. The law is explicit in that the facility must relate to a 'digital television broadcast station antenna or tower', and pertains only to Lookout Mtn, but, for instance, does not state what else, said tower, could be used for.

The law looks to leave, sorry sCARE, lots of possibilities.
....jc

Who currently owns Lookout Mountain? What is the current status of the condemnation proceeding filed by the City of Golden? If Golden seizes the mountain, might local authority over the use of their land actually take precedence over Federal law?

--- CHAS

So it's not just a matter of erecting the tower; significant site infrastructure needs to be built as well.

Forgot about that bunker. Is the bunker being built because they are expecting "incoming" from sCARE? :D :D :D

Is building that bunker really going to take that long?

Since JohnJr already started the poetic waxing...*ahem*

As I winged my majestic bird Westward, climbing over the Rocky Mountain foothills on a gorgeous, clear moonlit winter night, I happened to glance down and see the stunning crimson array of lights atop Lookout Mountain. I thought to myself that those lights looked beautiful; pulsating like carefully placed Christmas lights. I couldn't help but to smile. Ah, the simple pleasures of life. :)



But in hindsight, maybe the victory roll was a bit much!

:eek:

An attorney would have to answer the question regarding which law prevails, however the condemnation is a real long shot. Colorado law requires that a condemnation by a city outside of its city limits requires the cooperation of the involved government. Jefferson County has already stated their opposition to the condemnation

But in hindsight, maybe the victory roll was a bit much!

:eek:

Myself, I would have enjoyed the victory roll ;) But I dont think most of teh passengers would appreciate it... :eek:

Since JohnJr already started the poetic waxing...*ahem*

As I winged my majestic bird Westward, climbing over the Rocky Mountain foothills on a gorgeous, clear moonlit winter night, I happened to glance down and see the stunning crimson array of lights atop Lookout Mountain. I thought to myself that those lights looked beautiful; pulsating like carefully placed Christmas lights. I couldn't help but to smile. Ah, the simple pleasures of life. :)



But in hindsight, maybe the victory roll was a bit much!

:eek::)

-John

.......... Ah, the simple pleasures of life. :)

But in hindsight, maybe the victory roll was a bit much!

:eek:
:D

I don't suppose Katie Daryl was in your 'cockpit' at the time?????
:eek:

Yippeeeee!


Is this a dream or what? :D :D :D

Not if your name is Deb! It's a nightmare..... :D

Posted by longrider:
An attorney would have to answer the question regarding which law prevails, however the condemnation is a real long shot. Colorado law requires that a condemnation by a city outside of its city limits requires the cooperation of the involved government. Jefferson County has already stated their opposition to the condemnation

I think the first few words of the law, up to the first comma, eliminate condemnation as any possibility. This federal law trumps state/local law, which is why the language is in the law. LCG's property is probably the only piece of property in the entire country that is condemnation proof.

What worries me about the wording of the law is the reference at the end to limit new tower height to the same or lesser height of the tallest existing analog tower. If the LCG stations remove the existing analog towers, the height of the existing analog towers will be ZERO. To me, that means that the new tower must be built before all of the existing analog towers are removed and once they are removed, no new tower construction can take place under this law, even if it might not be relevant for 50 years. Perhaps because this legislation had to be rushed through Congress, the wording of the law was not well thought out. I think a pure reference to height, such as 850 feet, would have been preferable over a reference to existing analog towers' height. But that's my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer.

Just out of curiosity, where is Mount Morrison? Is that the one behind Red Rocks?

Just out of curiosity, where is Mount Morrison? Is that the one behind Red Rocks?Yes, currently there are two smaller towers on it.

Denver Post Article (Sun, Dec 10) (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4813325)

A quote from one of the comments to the Denver post's articles yesterday. Anyone know about this?
"We also need to remove Judge Brooks Jackson who is driving a new Hummer arranged for by Deb Carney. This is bribery and indecent act by a public official."
As of right now, it's comment #20. http://www.denverpostbloghouse.com/2006/12/08/free-tv-vs-health/

Is the new tower up yet? :)

Tim

If I understood the rules correctly, S4092 was just passed without objection.
:D :D :D

Let the construction begin, at least until the court appeals.

This isn't done yet. Contact the White House and urge the president to sign the bill. Very important.

The appeal would go to the federal courts and be based on unconstitutionality of the act. Good luck to SCARE and Golden with that. The commerce clause gives Congress the jurisdiction and the Communications Act of 1934 gives the FCC the authority to regulate the airwaves. Though I think the FCC goes to far with content regulation, violating the First Amendment, it's hard to argue with them creating technical broadcast standards. The one time recently they didn't do this was with AM stereo, which died a very sad death.

I was at the Jeffco Dems Central Committee meeting yesterday. Sen. Salazar's spokesperson, Renny Fagin, was there and said something about Salazar's co-sponsorship of the bill. There were some very angry SCARE people in the crowd. I made a point of talking with Renny afterward, saying, "Not everybody in this room is against the tower. Sen. Salazar did the right thing. Please thank him for me."

We should all contact our senators and representatives and thank them for voting in favor of the bill. Let them know that the pro-tower faction was as large as the anti, if not as vocal. This will encourage them to hold firm if, somehow, this thing comes back to them for more action.

Quote from the Denver Post Article 12/10/06

"If this can be done to us, no community is safe from having their local rights taken away from them," said Deb Carney, :eek:

She is Insane, That is exactly what she was trying to do to everyone that wants Digital OTA!

I hope President Bush signs the legislation. I am fortunate I have always received the signals from downtown.I used to get channel 7 in 1999 on my first HDTV set. So I have been lucky getting all the digital channels and have not been posting here lately.

I hate to momentarily interrupt the celebration over the tower bill, which I was very happy and surprised to learn about, but I have a real quick question and no place better to get it answered than from the OTA crowd.

I get all my TVA OTA, and want to buy a DVD recorder. I have read lots of posts about how you have to set cable boxes, etc. to certain outputs like 480 to record, but have seen little on recording OTA signals. I know they don't actually record in HD, but will they take an HD OTA signal straight from the the antenna and record it, or does something else need to happen in between?

I have not heard of a DVD recorder that comes with a built in OTA tuner. You need something (a tuner) to decode the HD signals and pipe it to the recorder. Some TV's might have a video out, but that's probably a composite signal (yellow RCA) - I don't know of any that have component output (RGB), which is what you would need to at least feed the recorder a good signal.

I have not heard of a DVD recorder that comes with a built in OTA tuner. You need something (a tuner) to decode the HD signals and pipe it to the recorder. Some TV's might have a video out, but that's probably a composite signal (yellow RCA) - I don't know of any that have component output (RGB), which is what you would need to at least feed the recorder a good signal.

Can I buy a stand alone tuner?

Yes, several are available. I have a Samsung SIR-T451, for example.

Tim

Probably not the proper forum to discuss this but I will anyway.

By March of 2007 ALL TVs larger than 13" and any VCR/DVD Recorder/settop box that wants to include an NTSC tuner must also include an ATSC tuner.

For this reason I would expect to see several manufacturers include an ATSC tuner with their DVD recorders (you will also see several with no tuners at all).

If you want to record HD to a DVD recorder and can wait til February/March, you will se exactly what you are looking for.

Trust me.

By March of 2007 ALL TVs larger than 13" and any VCR/DVD Recorder/settop box that wants to include an NTSC tuner must also include an ATSC tuner.
They sped the timeline up some time ago. It's now 03/07 for ALL Tv's(regardless of size), and TV source devices that carry broadcaster tuners.

So, that's only 81 days away.
....jc

And remember that all standard DVD formats (480p, 4:3)are below the HD broadcast levels (720p and 1080i, 16:9). You should be looking at Blue-Ray or (hack spit) HD-DVD. Only these last two would be in the format that we should expect for HiDef.

# Matt

Yes, I hope Blue-ray wins.

And remember that all standard DVD formats (480p, 4:3)are below the HD broadcast levels (720p and 1080i, 16:9). You should be looking at Blue-Ray or (hack spit) HD-DVD. Only these last two would be in the format that we should expect for HiDef.

# Matt

Yes, I hope Blue-ray wins.


I have a Samsung DVD player that up converts to 720p/1080i via HDMI, It looks good but not as good as OTA, I am also looking for something to record HD from my VIP 622 receiver. We frequently get a season of shows recorded and I end up deleting them for more hard drive space. Any ideas anyone? The wife has already confirmed no blue ray for me this year.

Sorry if this is OT

And remember that all standard DVD formats (480p, 4:3)are below the HD broadcast levels (720p and 1080i, 16:9). You should be looking at Blue-Ray or (hack spit) HD-DVD. Only these last two would be in the format that we should expect for HiDef.

# Matt

Yes, I hope Blue-ray wins.
That should read HD-DVD or (hack spit) BluRay. :p

The wife has already confirmed no blue ray for me this year. My wife knows better than to threaten something like that. Because, it means no jewelery for her. ;)

I do wonder what this means for KRMA.

I remember James Morgese indicating at one time that their current tower on Lookout was nearing end-of-life, but you would think with enough $ it could remain functional. I believe it is considered one of the uglier towers on the mountain, but sCARE lost their best opportunity to get rid of it by opposing the Mt. Morrison project.

I wonder if they are looking into using the current Ch. 20 facility on Mt. Morrison. If I remember correctly that tower was legal conforming and could add a DTV antenna. Or, as others have stated, maybe there is a way to re-join LCG.

Mark

It looks like LCG plans to stick with their plan to remove old towers instead of retro-fitting them with new antennas.

http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/

That should read HD-DVD or (hack spit) BluRay. :p

http://www.newtek.com/forums/images/smilies/brians/agree.gif

All of the DTV stations should now move in with LCG. I'm convinced that a single site for all the DTV stations in a market is the only way to go.

Congratulations, Denver!

Apologies if this question appears in the faq (if so, I couldn't find it).
I'm a newbie both to this group and hdtv and was wondering why lcg chooses to broadcast low level from Republic Plaza rather than Lookout Mountain? It would seem to me that even their low level signal would reach more people from LM than RP.

As it is, I was told by engineer at KCNC, Ch. 4, that the reason I cannot get their signal is b/c it is "overwhelmed" by the CW, Ch.2 signal that IS broadcast from LM (apparently the CW signal is broadcast on UHF 33 and the KCNC on UHF 34). I live on the southside of Green Mtn., between Golden and Morrison. Any advice as to how to pull in the KCNC signal until the new tower goes up? I have no problem getting KMGH, Ch. 7, or KUSA, Ch. 9.
And, of course, most Bronco games and the Super Bowl are on KCNC...

Any and all help greatly appreciated!

Updates on the evil empire:

sCARE: (http://www.c-a-r-e.org/) No website updates.

City & Mountain Views: (http://www.citymtnviews.com/AT_Update_Dec10_2006.php4) New info posted

HDTVhonestly: (http://hdtvhonestly.com)Silent

Apologies if this question appears in the faq (if so, I couldn't find it).
I'm a newbie both to this group and hdtv and was wondering why lcg chooses to broadcast low level from Republic Plaza rather than Lookout Mountain? It would seem to me that even their low level signal would reach more people from LM than RP.

As it is, I was told by engineer at KCNC, Ch. 4, that the reason I cannot get their signal is b/c it is "overwhelmed" by the CW, Ch.2 signal that IS broadcast from LM (apparently the CW signal is broadcast on UHF 33 and the KCNC on UHF 34). I live on the southside of Green Mtn., between Golden and Morrison. Any advice as to how to pull in the KCNC signal until the new tower goes up? I have no problem getting KMGH, Ch. 7, or KUSA, Ch. 9.
And, of course, most Bronco games and the Super Bowl are on KCNC...

Any and all help greatly appreciated!
Just guessing as to why the lcg stations are broadcasting digital from Republic Plaza. With all the contention they have with Jeffco over their main proposal for the new tower, even asking for something trivial like permission for low-power DT would just have confused the issue and given their opponents leverage. Better to locate their temporary facilities in a different jurisdiction with a different set of players.

Slight correction to your post - KCNC-DT(4.1) is on UHF 35, KWGN-DT(2.1) is on UHF34.

One suggestion that might help with your problem would be to get a separate antenna to use for the Republic Plaza stations, one which has good off-axis rejection like the CM 4228.

I don't remember reading anywhere as to when the new tower will go up. Does anyone have anything official as to when HD will be broadcast from lookout? Either the new antenna or from the existing ones -now that it appears LCG can proceed.

City & Mountain Views: (http://www.citymtnviews.com/AT_Update_Dec10_2006.php4)
I found this statement in the article linked above:
"Lookout Mountain is potentially more profitable than alternative antenna tower sites that offer equal coverage of the Denver metro area and have been available for HDTV antennas for the past six years!"

So they are claiming that a Lookout Mountain site is "more profitable" but that the alternative sites offer "equal coverage". How exactly does that work?

The entire article was filled with similar BS. It sure appeared to me that they were really reaching to find something negative to say. Not only that, they just flat out lied about some things. For instance the CSU RF study. They sure as heck read something in there that I did not see!! Of course they just have suffered what may very well be a fatal setback on this issue. Can they say "Sour Grapes" ??

Phil P.

I don't remember reading anywhere as to when the new tower will go up. Does anyone have anything official as to when HD will be broadcast from lookout? Either the new antenna or from the existing ones -now that it appears LCG can proceed.
I read in one of the stories that they will just beat the deadline by a few months. That does sound reasonable, even if they get the permits tomorrow outside work on Lookout is limited in the winter. Start in the spring with the excavating and get the shell of the building up and sealed by winter, do the interior of the buildong over the winter of '07/'08 the come spring '08 put up the antennas and get everything going by the fall

Didn't, awhile back, LCG say that it would be about 18 months from ground breaking to the facility being operational. Well first we need to have ground breaking. Then maybe we can figure out when we might have full power DTV in the Denver metro area.

As good as the news seems to be right now, there are some additional hurdles to be overcome. First the bill needs to be signed into law! Then we have to see if our friends over at sCARE and Golden will file suit to get the law thrown out because it violates the 10 th amendment. If/when they do that, all bets are off. They could potentially get an injunction that would prevent any building whatsoever until a lengthy process, possibly ending with the Supreme Court can be completed.

I am afraid that this saga is far from being over!

Phil P.

Wow, I stop reading for a month and I miss an earth quake!
Maybe sCARE finally shot themselves totally in the foot.They've been shooting themselves in the foot for so long I'm surprised any of them could walk without any toes!

I loved this quote in the Post:
It was bundled with more than 30 bills deemed noncontroversial. :p

(nice to hear from Geoff and Hot again)

Didn't, awhile back, LCG say that it would be about 18 months from ground breaking to the facility being operational. Well first we need to have ground breaking. Then maybe we can figure out when we might have full power DTV in the Denver metro area.

As good as the news seems to be right now, there are some additional hurdles to be overcome. First the bill needs to be signed into law! Then we have to see if our friends over at sCARE and Golden will file suit to get the law thrown out because it violates the 10 th amendment. If/when they do that, all bets are off. They could potentially get an injunction that would prevent any building whatsoever until a lengthy process, possibly ending with the Supreme Court can be completed.

I am afraid that this saga is far from being over!

Phil P.There are lots of ways this can play out. For now, I'm gonna take Dubya's signature as a given; his use of the veto has been almost nonexistent.

One thing the new law gives the stations is firm backing if they choose to use their existing towers because they can't get the new tower built. They always had that right, IMHO, but having a specific Act of Congress saying so gives it a lot more weight and makes it very unlikely that some Federal judge will grant (s)CARE an injunction using the 'different service' argument.

With this added leverage, there is more opportunity to settle this amicably. I'm sure LCG is already making it clear to the Jeffco commissioners that the only choice they have is 4 towers or 1. They may also be offering some sweeteners to help the commisioners save face; it's actually good that the vote is delayed to January since that gives some time for tempers to cool.

Best case outcome is that the Jeffco commissioners approve the new tower in January. If the commisioners approve, it should be a slam dunk for Judge Jackson to lift the injunction.

If the commissioners reject the LCG tower proposal, LCG could still ask Judge Jackson to lift the injunction anyway. But if that fails or if the process drags out beyond the spring, I expect them say "screw you, we'll just use the towers we have".

Isn't it possible now for the LCG to add digital to the existing towers now till the new one goes up?

Barring any legal delays due to possible challenges to the constitutionality of the law, that would seem to be the case. On the other hand, it would seem to me that as long as LCG feels that they may build the new tower (before the 2009 deadline), they would likely not modify the existing towers. I would guess that it would be too expensive and time consuming to do for a short term solution that really does not buy them much. Just my thoughts...

Phil P.

Isn't it possible now for the LCG to add digital to the existing towers now till the new one goes up?
Based on the wording of the bill, I'd assume so.

To the person who asked why low power wasn't on Lookout - the existing analog towers were put on Lookout Mountain before the land was zoned residential. So they're grandfathered in as long as they aren't modified. Putting (even low-power, temporary) digital transmitters on their "legal, non-conforming" towers would be in violation of zoning regulations.

Isn't it possible now for the LCG to add digital to the existing towers now till the new one goes up?I suspect they don't want to spend any more money on temporary solutions.

I would think that would be legal but it wouldn't be very cost effective for 7 and 9 as the antenna and any portion of the transmitter thst is frequency specific would be useless in 2 years. They could move the existing low power units up to Lookout which would help but I dont know how much

The Denver tower situation made engadgethd.com today:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/11/denver-is-so-close-to-finally-getting-ota-hdtv/

-Glen

Good to see we've made national news, but too bad the author got most of the details wrong. First, there are more than 600,000 Denverites, Second, the consolidation tower will not be taller than any of the existing towers, Third, the 'hippies' will not be getting 75 acres of 'free' open space, as they screwed that pooch. LCG shouldn't give them any free space!

First, there are more than 600,000 Denverites.600K is supposedly the number of Front Range residents who depend on OTA reception of the Denver stations. I'm not sure how the number was computed - seems a bit high to me, since I've generally heard that 15% of the population are OTA-only and we don't have 4M people in the Denver viewing area.

Still no updates on the (S)CARE webpage. They must be so livid that none of them has calmed down enough to type, either that or they are busy plotting the appeal to the Supreme Court.

;)

PS
I am actually a bit shocked they haven't put up a 'call to arms', or emergency meeting notice yet.

Have you heard anything yet from the fellas at LCG?

I am actually a bit shocked they haven't put up a 'call to arms', or emergency meeting notice yet.
They've been busy. Since it has been confirmed that the public, or 'We The People', is now the enemy:

They've been overheating their shredders...
Encrypting their email messages...
Had their houses & meeting places searched for bugs...
Started wearing disguises...
Had the 'gift' Hummer painted and driven out of state...
Throwing out their phony 'Aluminum Costumes'...
Replaced their Kool-Aid with MD 20-20...
Have considered moving their 'Commune' to the backwoods of Tennessee...
And, finally, Deb has dyed her hair red, and has reportedly booked to Mexico...

....jc

I bet she's changing her name like that Boulder DA, so nobody will know she's the one responsible.

600K is supposedly the number of Front Range residents who depend on OTA reception of the Denver stations. I'm not sure how the number was computed - seems a bit high to me, since I've generally heard that 15% of the population are OTA-only and we don't have 4M people in the Denver viewing area.I've seen sources (that I cannot provide) that say about 20% of the people in a large area receive their TV OTA. Not sure if that's actually 20% of the people or just 20% of the TV's (and there are likely more TV's than people). With 2.6 million people in the metro area, that's 520,000. If you go beyond the metro area towards the Springs and Ft. Collins, you may get closer to 3 million. So it's close. Artistic license. ;)

The US Census Bureau estimates the metro population as of 7-1-05, about a year and a half ago, at:

Denver/Aurora - 2,359,994; Ft. Collins/Loveland - 271,927; Greeley - 228, 943; and Boulder - 280,440. That totals 3,141,304 and pretty much covers the Denver DMA. 20% of that is 628,260 and 15% is 471,196. So I guess 600,000 is pretty close.

20% of that is 628,260 and 15% is 471,196.
Either way, it is a lot more than the number of people complaining about the new tower.

I phoned the offices of Degette, Udall, Tancredo, Beauprez, Allard and Salazar (did I miss anybody?). Asked to forward my thanks to each. The receptionists did mention that they were receiving negative comments from Goldenites.

More positive comments from our side sure couldn't hurt.

I think I'll write up some emails, too.

Just my 2¢

I phoned the offices of Degette, Udall, Tancredo, Beauprez, Allard and Salazar (did I miss anybody?). Asked to forward my thanks to each. The receptionists did mention that they were receiving negative comments from Goldenites.

More positive comments from our side sure couldn't hurt.

I think I'll write up some emails, too.

Just my 2¢

Very good point. I think it would be great if everyone took some time to show them that what they all did was the right thing now that we finally got our way. It's not too often we have the ability to thank our reps for proving that the government still works sometimes so here's your chance!

WooHoo!

BTW (S)Care members: I would now like to make a formal offer to purchase any of your radiation infested houses (which will soon be uninhabitable for $10,000.

You can just PM me the contract
Jetlag I am surprised you have time to post here. I am sure you are being overwhemed processing all those contracts.

Sent emails today to Allard, Salazar and Tancredo thanking them all. More can't hurt. I bet they keep a count.

I just sent them a nice thank you again too. I bet they've gotten a few nasty emails from the NIMBY's.

If they would have just tried to work with us instead of turning hostile, it might have worked out for everybody. Now they're gonna' get Squat... Actually, they're not even gonna' get Squat, they're gonna' get less than Squat!! ;)

I just sent them a nice thank you again too. I bet they've gotten a few nasty emails from the NIMBY's.
Actually, I don't really think this whole episode is about NIMBYism.

I think that it's about a few arrogant, rich and selfish people, trying to change history, embellish themselves, and force their wills on the majority through lies and mistruths.

Through their actions, they've deprived the entire Denver area(yea, even us down South) of digital broadcasts, which the rest of the country has been enjoying for years.

This I will not forget. And, while sCARE, Golden and the rest of the anti-tower crowd may be unhappy, they are going to escape without the punishment that they deserve.
....jc

As I posted over the weekend, I did send thank you emails to Rep. Trancredo and Sens. Allard and Salazar. I received a canned response email from Sen. Allard today stating that another email would follow shortly with more information on the topic I had comments about (can't remember if it was "other", "telecommunications", etc. as each web site was a little different). It'll be interesting to see how detailed this follow-up email will be, although I presume it'll be canned/generic.

Posted by TotallyPreWired:
And, while sCARE, Golden and the rest of the anti-tower crowd may be unhappy, they are going to escape without the punishment that they deserve.

I understand where you are coming from but I think, at least in their own minds, these folks will be punished with transmitter(s) on Lookout spoiling their pristine aesthetic views, RF levels they (however misinformed) will lose sleep over, probable loss of RF monitoring, probable loss of "free" open space, and homes that may have lost value, for the rest of their lives. It's kind of self-inflicted punishment, their own mythical Canon City/SuperMax. I smile every time I look out my front second floor windows at night with a clear view of Lookout's beautiful red lights flashing against that black, starlit sky.

Saw the Avs in HD tonight - in person. Nice to have a win over last year's Stanley Cup Champs.

and homes that may have lost value, for the rest of their lives.
I have to disagree. I think home values will increase with three less towers on the mountain and the tallest tower replaced with a smaller one. That will improve property values overall. sCARE's pipe dream was No towers or at least only the two that are zoned legal. And we all know that was never gonna' happen!

---------

Nice Pro-tower editorial in the post today.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_4820776

I'm still hearing to many references to the "HDTV Tower", though.

Hopefully, the media will get it through their heads.....this is about the future of local television in Denver, not just about doing "HDTV" for some videophiles.

If the Denver stations, by some party's eventual legal manipulations, are not able to get on the air digitally, then they will lose their FCC licenses. Without those licenses, they have no means to be carried on satellite or Cable (except by purchasing space from those carriers, i.e.: no "must carry" or "retransmission"). Without their licenses, they would not be in a position to carry network TV programming (in any form, SD or HD).

So, without the "HDTV Tower", on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 (only about 26 months from now), all Denver TV stations will become web sites! And, much of Colorado, loses all locally-oriented TV coverage.

(Feel free to pass this along to your favorite local media editor).

I have to disagree. I think home values will increase with three less towers on the mountain and the tallest tower replaced with a smaller one. I would agree. And I think the impact of the towers on property values has always been exaggerated, anyway.

The towers are just a skeeter that bit Golden 50 years ago. It wouldn't hurt or itch at all if they would just stop scratching.

I'm still hearing to many references to the "HDTV Tower", though.



I'm still finding lots annoying press references to 'Digital Towers', 'Analog Towers', 'Digital Spectrum', 'Analog Spectrum'. This kind of newspaper talk only confuses an ignorant public by implying there's a basic difference in the electromagnetic physics governing radio communications.

--- CHAS

That should read HD-DVD or (hack spit) BluRay. :p
http://www.newtek.com/forums/images/smilies/brians/agree.gif

What do you folks have against Blu-Ray?
I am in the pro Blu-Ray for the main reason of 20% MORE storage capacity.
Also, I don't like how Micro$oft has weasled their way into HD-DVD standards.


Back on Target ... I have sent e-mails thanking the congressional folks.

# Matt

What do you folks have against Blu-Ray?
I am in the pro Blu-Ray for the main reason of 20% MORE storage capacity.
Also, I don't like how Micro$oft has weasled their way into HD-DVD standards.
I don't like the way Blu-Ray "outbid" HD-DVD in the race for most extreme copy-protection. Both formats have plenty of storage for a full-length movie with a moderate amount of extras; having 20% more than enough is no real advantage. And I haven't followed it for a while, but I know there were concerns that BD discs might be more expensive to manufacture and easier to damage.

Having said all that, I'll be interested once players get down to $300 or so with 1000 or more titles available. Since I rent discs rather than buy them, I'm not too worried about whether the format I pick "wins".

Here is an article that showed up in the Canyon Courier (http://www.canyoncourier.com/story_display.php?sid=4467)
“We are stunned,” Carney said. “We feel betrayed. We thought we had certain rights in this country. "

The way I see it they started this whole mess. Initially the BCC passed the consolidated tower with a vote of 3 to 0, but they didn't except this they took it to court. We all know what has happened since then. The new BCC who don't want the tower have even though judge Jackson order a due speed decision continued to prolong making it. The fact is they are dragging this out just as long as they can hoping to reach a point in time where not enough time exists to build the tower. From what I gathered Allard tried to work with them. So why are they surprised it ended up in Congress.
Something was needed to speed it along.

Just received this...

Dear Ernie:

Thank you for letting me know you support Congressional action to allow a new tower to be built on Lookout Mountain to broadcast digital television. I appreciate hearing from you about this subject.

On December 6, 2006 the Senate passed a bill (S. 4092) providing that any holder of an approved Federal Communications Commission (FCC) permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County, may construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate such an antenna or tower, or both at that location so long as the antenna or tower is no higher than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or tower at that location. The bill specifies that this can be done notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations, but that all applicable Federal laws and regulations will still apply.

Early in the morning on December 9th, the House of Representatives was asked to agree to the Senate bill and did so without a vote, sending the bill to the president to be signed into law.

The intent of the legislation is to facilitate broadcasting of digital programs to people who do not get television by cable or satellite. I had concerns about such action to override our state and local laws and authorities, but I decided not to intervene in this matter because it was backed by both of Colorado's Senators and because Lookout Mountain is not located in the Congressional District I represent.

Thanks again for contacting me. To do my job well, I need to hear critical feedback from my fellow Coloradans. For more information about my positions, please visit my website at www.house.gov/markudall and sign up for my email newsletter.

Warm Regards,
Mark Udall
Member of Congress

Ernie. I have been impatiently waiting for your home page update.