Well, I just read that you can't use an indoor antenna if your TV is in the basement, which is where mine is located. So, I guess that's the end of that! Thanks anyway....Kram,

Why are you giving up? OTA HD is as good as it gets. Well worth the effort. You just spent a fortune on an HDTV and now you're not going to get the best PQ you can?

If you're worried about an HOA, forget it. The law says you can put up an antenna and they cannot stop you. We've all be through this. If you need info on this, just ask. But, don't quit!!!!

kram -
I can't say if this relates to your situation or not, but I have two Yamaha receivers; one in my family room, the other in the basement. The basement one gets an FM station from Colorado Springs with just the wire antenna that came with it; the upstairs one doesn't get it whether I use the wire antenna or an FM antenna. You're in a relatively high location compared to RP (unless you're on the SW side of the streets you mentioned). It's worth a shot - what's $25? Even if you can't find a Silver Sensor, go to Radio Shack and see what they've got - if it doesn't work, go get your money back.

Well, I just read that you can't use an indoor antenna if your TV is in the basement, which is where mine is located. So, I guess that's the end of that! Thanks anyway....

This whole low power digital tv reception game is hit or miss. You really never know until you try.
The fact that you don't want to go to the trouble to put an antenna in the attic, or outside, and that you will give up without even getting something to try, seems to indicate that you really are not that interested in OTA HD. Like many others here I have spent lots of time and energy to get reliable OTA HD. I have a huge VHF/UHF Yagi about 55 feet above the ground, with a rotor. I have played with lots of amps and hight end coax. I now get all of the locals in HD. I personally think it has been well worth the fight.

Bottom line, please don't give up so easily. The common wisdom (no reception from an indoor antenna in a basement) is often flawed. You will never know until you give it a try. I think that even if you end up getting a few of the stations from LM, you will be happy that you made the effort!!

Phil P.

So W signed 4092, This is great news, I have been out of touch the last few days (at DIA) Glad to hear it. :)

Merry Christmas everyone

Ernie, Check your PM

I have been out of touch the last few days (at DIA)Sorry to hear that. My wife and I were out there Wednesday morning and barely made it back to Boulder before everything shut down.

Show this to sCARE:

http://www.larrykenney.com/sutrotwr.html

Same kind of thing back at the turn of the century when DTV construction was proposed. Not zoned for digital television, Dump the Tower protests, Eeks Radiation and with 'The Big One' quake twist as an added bonus.

Evidently they conducted some sort of study about adding the antennas for DTV and the conclusion was the tower was up to code and could easily accommodate the new antennas. This was neither what the 'Concerned Citizens' activists expected nor what they wanted to hear. So they must have lost; as you can see from the pictures, the DTV mast is in place.

Yes there is an anti-tower slanted web site with a lot of outdated information .. not as much propaganda as the sCARE site.

--- CHAS

Meanwhile, the clock keeps ticking towards Feb of 2009 when the existing towers will become unusable.

Why would that happen? I thought one "plan" was to flash cut to digital using the existing towers?

Why would that happen? I thought one "plan" was to flash cut to digital using the existing towers?That would work for some stations, but not for KCNC since they need a new transmitter (tuned for channel frequency 35 rather than 4).

Show this to sCARE:

http://www.larrykenney.com/sutrotwr.html

This is what always killed me about the allegations of RF radiation danger from (s)CARE. All over the country we have full-power TV transmitters located in dense urban settings - Sutro Tower in San Francisco, Empire State Building in NYC. But somehow it's only a hazard HERE.

This is what always killed me about the allegations of RF radiation danger from (s)CARE. All over the country we have full-power TV transmitters located in dense urban settings - Sutro Tower in San Francisco, Empire State Building in NYC. But somehow it's only a hazard HERE.Their issue is height. We are the only market where people live at or above the actual antenna. In all the other markets, like NY or SF, sure, the towers are big and very close to populated areas, but the antennas are above.

For example, I live at 7700' feet which is about the same height as 7 & 9's analog antenna's. sCARE calls this being "in-the-beam", and I am going to fry like crispy bacon. Except, most people don't live close enough for it to matter. Most homes like me, are about 3 miles away. They make it sound like people live right next to the towers in the beam. Nobody is that close.

Why would that happen? I thought one "plan" was to flash cut to digital using the existing towers?

I can see that happening only if they can't finish the new construction before Feb of 2009. It may come down to that because the date is only two years away and there isn't any time for schedule slippage. Except for the station that elected a new channel assignment, the existing structures can now be be used without much valid 'backstatic' from the zoning people. So my 'Ticking Clock' might not be of as much concern as it used to be.

Maybe the Feb date will change. With the upcoming power structure of Congress about to change, the date might change. The Democrats have always viewed the DTV transition as an assault on the poor and disadvantaged. But they will still need help from President Bush to change the law.

If that happens other options for the switchover schedule and it's technical details will open. Engineers are always thinking about contingencies.

--- CHAS

This whole low power digital tv reception game is hit or miss. You really never know until you try.
The fact that you don't want to go to the trouble to put an antenna in the attic, or outside, and that you will give up without even getting something to try, seems to indicate that you really are not that interested in OTA HD. Like many others here I have spent lots of time and energy to get reliable OTA HD. I have a huge VHF/UHF Yagi about 55 feet above the ground, with a rotor. I have played with lots of amps and hight end coax. I now get all of the locals in HD. I personally think it has been well worth the fight.

Bottom line, please don't give up so easily. The common wisdom (no reception from an indoor antenna in a basement) is often flawed. You will never know until you give it a try. I think that even if you end up getting a few of the stations from LM, you will be happy that you made the effort!!

Phil P.

Thanks for your advice. Though I'm far from content with the very limited HD programming I have currently, I just don't have the expertise or the money to set up exactly what I probably need. Yes, it would be great to get something up on the roof (or even in the attic), but I know absolutely nothing about how to do it. I guess I'll get some kind of indoor antenna and give it a try. If it doesn't work, I'll just return it. :)

Sorry to intrude here.

I sometimes read this thread to see what is up in Denver over this whole tower issue. It became pretty obvious to me a long time ago these people had never seen what is called a vertical radiation pattern that shows the amount of RF that comes off of an antenna where 90% of the RF is straight out from the antenna and in a beamwidth that isn't much more than the height of the actual radiator (if there was as much RF at the ground under towers as these people purport, no one would SEE the signal at a distance) and for those of us who don't live in areas with mountains tens of thousands of feet, we have to live at the same level as the base of the towers with antennas that radiate many millions of watts of RF just 500 ft off the ground with homes within the guy anchors and I must admit in my 30 years of broadcasting, I have NEVER seen a person "glow in the dark" from one of these towers or have a higher risk of cancer or any other such thing. I hate to admit it, but every transmitter engineer I have known has NEVER died of non-ionizing cancer but of just about everything else or is still alive!

I hope for your sake things will now start to move forward for the Denver market. The rest of the country is with you.

kram -
You're in a relatively high location compared to RP (unless you're on the SW side of the streets you mentioned).

I'm actually a little east of Broadway and north of Dry Creek. Does that increase my chances of being able to use an indoor antenna? I decided I'll give it a shot. If it doesn't work, I can always return it. BTW, what is "RP"? Thanks. :)

Their issue is height. We are the only market where people live at or above the actual antenna. In all the other markets, like NY or SF, sure, the towers are big and very close to populated areas, but the antennas are above.IIRC, there are several skyscrapers in NYC which are within a few hundred feet of the Empire State Building's height, and at least as close as any neighborhoods on Lookout Mountain.

But no matter - the (s)CARE argument was never about logic to begin with.

http://lawood.home.mindspring.com/Tower/Holiday.jpg
If everything goes well we may actually be receiving our DTV from here next Christmas.

BTW, what is "RP"? Thanks. :)"RP" is Republic Plaza in downtown Denver - the building on which KCNC, KUSA, KRMA, KMGH, and KTVD have their low-power digital TV transmitters.

I'm actually a little east of Broadway and north of Dry Creek. Does that increase my chances of being able to use an indoor antenna? I decided I'll give it a shot. If it doesn't work, I can always return it. BTW, what is "RP"? Thanks. :)

RP is Republic Plaza, current location of several of the low-power transmitters (4.1, 7.1, 9.1 and 9.2 broadcast from there--and maybe 6.1??). It's in downtown Denver.

-Sarah

I can see that happening only if they can't finish the new construction before Feb of 2009. It may come down to that because the date is only two years away and there isn't any time for schedule slippage.
Let's face it, if they really wanted to expedite the tower construction, they could. Of course, it would cost LCG more $$$, but it could be done. Once construction actually starts, about the only things that couldn't be avoided are weather related: Wind & Lightning. The rest can be managed. Hypothetical timeline:


01/01/07 - Apply for building permits. Allow 2 months.
03/01/07 - Construction begins. Too cold? Nah, bring in the big machines to break thru the frost and tent the foundation areas. The areas are heated and foundation work begins.
The tower fabricator gets the go ahead, and is told to work extra shifts(if needed). They are given 1 month to complete the work.
04/01/07 - The tower assembly arrives onsite. Work continues on the transmitter building.
Crews start work on installing the power, fiber, water, sewer & gas lines.
05/01/07 - The base sections of the tower are installed, and work continues on the erection. Work also continues on the transmitter building. The walls and roof are now complete.
06/01/07 - The tower is almost complete. The utilities are completed, and work continues on the transmitter building.
07/01/07 - The tower is now complete. Work begins on the installation of the antennas, cables, lights and microwave links. The transmitter building is now finished, and the installation of equipment has started. Landscaping begins, as does work on the memorial area.
08/01/07 - Most of the equipment has been installed, and testing begins. The memorial area(a series of bronze plaques telling the history of the tower) is almost complete. At the rear of the site work begins on the outhouse.
09/01/07 - Full power digital broadcasting begins. At the dedication ceremony, a bronze statue of Deb Carney is installed in the outhouse(in the sitting position). Other than the actual tower lights, the outhouse will be the only area of the facility lit at night.

....jc

jc,

You forgot the slight delay when the sCARE folks create a human chain and lay across the road so the dozers can't get into the site. (Only a slight delay until they get arrested and hauled off to the hooskow!)

Sorry to intrude here.

I sometimes read this thread to see what is up in Denver over this whole tower issue. It became pretty obvious to me a long time ago these people had never seen what is called a vertical radiation pattern that shows the amount of RF that comes off of an antenna where 90% of the RF is straight out from the antenna and in a beamwidth that isn't much more than the height of the actual radiator (if there was as much RF at the ground under towers as these people purport, no one would SEE the signal at a distance) and for those of us who don't live in areas with mountains tens of thousands of feet, we have to live at the same level as the base of the towers with antennas that radiate many millions of watts of RF just 500 ft off the ground with homes within the guy anchors and I must admit in my 30 years of broadcasting, I have NEVER seen a person "glow in the dark" from one of these towers or have a higher risk of cancer or any other such thing. I hate to admit it, but every transmitter engineer I have known has NEVER died of non-ionizing cancer but of just about everything else or is still alive!

I hope for your sake things will now start to move forward for the Denver market. The rest of the country is with you.Everything you say is true and has been argued in front of SCARE and the Commissioners. Unfortunately SCARE never lets facts get in the way of a good scare. They mostly lie about everything and prefer to scare people with nonsense and they seem to get away with it. They are the epitome of not letting a fact get in their way of an argument. If lying to the public was illegal they'd be jailed for countless lifetimes. They prey upon the emotions of unsuspecting souls and convince them that everything the broadcasters and their cronies argue is wrong and/or misleading (ie, they accuse everyone else of doing exactly what they themselves are doing). They are evil and deserve to rot in hell for the unethical manner in which they've conducted themselves. May God save their souls because frankly I'd let em burn in hell until it freezes over.

Thank you TPW, you made my morning!

One thing I just thought about, 7 and 9 may stay low power until Feb. 2009. Being ready just months before the cutover will they buy the UHF antenna and whatever parts of the transmitter that are frequency specific for 6 months of use? I would suspect the current transmitters will get moved from RP to Lookout once the tower is ready and full power will wait until analog is shut off

I would suspect the current transmitters will get moved from RP to Lookout once the tower is ready and full power will wait until analog is shut offI am not 100% sure, but I don't think the current low-power transmitters on RP are the permanent full power ones just turned down. They most likely are just small, low power models.

Long,
If I misunderstood your statement, I don't believe they would install the full-power x-mitters and not use them until 2/09, they'll fire those babies up and get 'em going as fast as possible. If not just to piss off sCARE earlier.

I'm actually a little east of Broadway and north of Dry Creek. Does that increase my chances of being able to use an indoor antenna? I decided I'll give it a shot. If it doesn't work, I can always return it. BTW, what is "RP"? Thanks. :)
Yes it does improve your chances. Dry Creek is a high point almost due south of Republic Plaza (RP). There is a low spot between Easter and Arapahoe, but outside of that area you've got good line of sight, which isn't a guarantee, but doesn't hurt when trying to obtain the low power signals.

Thank you TPW, you made my morning!

One thing I just thought about, 7 and 9 may stay low power until Feb. 2009. Being ready just months before the cutover will they buy the UHF antenna and whatever parts of the transmitter that are frequency specific for 6 months of use? I would suspect the current transmitters will get moved from RP to Lookout once the tower is ready and full power will wait until analog is shut offKMGH and KUSA are slated to keep their current analog frequencies (7 and 9) after the transition. So the scenario I see for them is this:
a) buy and install new transmitters for frequencies 7/'9 on the LCG tower
b) move analog transmission from the old towers to the LCG tower.
c) flash-cut transmission on LCG tower from analog to digital in February 2009, at which time RP transmitters go dark
d) dismantle RP transmitters.

Unfortunately, that means we get stuck with low-power DTV for them until 2009 even if the tower gets finished early. KTVD and KCNC, though, could start full-power DTV when the tower is finished.

Also, if I read things right, KRMA has recently elected to keep their digital frequency (18) after analog shutoff which means they can't flash-cut their Lookout Mountain transmitter. Sure would make a lot of sense for them to re-join LCG now.

You forgot the slight delay when the sCARE folks create a human chain and lay across the road so the dozers can't get into the site.
Yea, it'll be a Photo OP for the dying cause. Two & Three Headed neighborhood kids lying in the road, mothers crying, aluminum costumed weirdos, red haired Deb(back from Mexico) driving the infamous Hummer.

It could be 'the' event in the Denver area in '07!

Unfortunately ???? never lets facts get in the way of a good scare. They mostly lie about everything and prefer to scare people with nonsense and they seem to get away with it. They are the epitome of not letting a fact get in their way of an argument. If lying to the public was illegal they'd be jailed for countless lifetimes. They prey upon the emotions of unsuspecting souls and convince them that everything the ???? and their cronies argue is wrong and/or misleading (ie, they accuse everyone else of doing exactly what they themselves are doing). They are evil and deserve to rot in hell for the unethical manner in which they've conducted themselves. May God save their souls because frankly I'd let em burn in hell until it freezes over.
Um, other than sCARE, who else does that describe to a 'T'?
Thank you TPW, you made my morning!
It must have been the sugar in the holiday donuts. :p I did have one other thought:

That a tower mounted HD camera be online 24 x 7 with the image of the outhouse(door open). And, in the bottom corner of all of the LCG channels the image be displayed. They could call it 'Commode Plus'.

I would suspect the current transmitters will get moved from RP to Lookout once the tower is ready and full power will wait until analog is shut off
There h/b talk that maybe RP will be the backup facility. If not, they would probably save $$$ by vacating ASAP and using the new tower that are paying for.
....jc

Unfortunately, that means we are stuck with low-power DTV until 2009 even if the tower gets finished early.I hope not, I'll ask the LCG folks and see what their actual plans are.

If you think about what is involved, it is confusing. Most TV markets only had to install antenna's on existing towers and new digital transmitters in the old buildings - simple. Our situation is different than just about every other market.

They were planning (in the LCGII application anyway) to put both analog & digital antennas for each station on the new tower. But, does it make sense to buy and install analog antennas on the new tower? Then, move, install with new wiring, pipe, cooling etc. the huge old analog transmitters into the new building for less than a year?

My guess is they will use the existing analog systems and just build the new tower with digital only. And it would make sense instead of keeping RP, to install the low-power setup also on the new tower as back-up. You've all seen Jetlag's pics of 7's coat-hanger antenna, how hard would it be to intstall that on the new tower? ;)

I am not 100% sure, but I don't think the current low-power transmitters on RP are the permanent full power ones just turned down. They most likely are just small, low power models.

Long,
If I misunderstood your statement, I don't believe they would install the full-power x-mitters and not use them until 2/09, they'll fire those babies up and get 'em going as fast as possible. If not just to piss off sCARE earlier.

My point was the the full power transmitters would be of channels 7 and 9 which they cant use until analog 7 and 9 are cut off. Other than the antenna and the exciter, how much of the transmitter is different for VHF vs UHF??

I think you will be stuck with downtown DTV until because the channel selections have been carefully worked out to minimize interference both now and after everyone goes digital. If the tower gets finished early (that was an interesting schedule), perhaps the FCC could be petitioned to allow to allow transmissions from there if an analysis indicates interference to existing stations is unlikely.

TV transmitters are not appliances that can easily be moved around. One of the links on my earlier San Francisco post shows pictures taken inside an equipment vault. Imagine disconnecting and reassembling all of that stuff! So, I would recommend retaining the downtown site as a backup and purchasing new equipment for the Lookout tower. Of course that would depend on the depth of my station's pockets.

Anyway, this is the season for Goodwill to all Men. So merry Christmas to everyone; tower proponents, tower opponents, disinterested parties, sCare and even their lady attorney who's sitting on the can.

--- CHAS

If it was me and my station / money - I would not bother moving the analog stuff into the new facility (except in the case where the "permanent" ATSC channel is the same as the current analog - then I'd do the flashcut in Feb 2007). Keep the current analog towers until I'm not longer transmitting NTSC, then dismantle them (just to be a "good neighbor"). If my "permanent" ATSC channel is the same one they are currently using on RP - then I'd move to the new tower ASAP.

However - the possibility of "flashcutting" depends if they can use the same equipment (except for the NTSC / ATSC exciters). If they can't, I wouldn't expect them to move to the new tower until absolutely necessary (i.e Feb 17 2009 ), when NTSC goes dark and ATSC is the only thing.

OH - BTW - you guys aren't the only market that the broadcasters built totally new facilities for the ATSC. My market in Raleigh NC did much the same thing (but no wrangling about the problems you guys had). Essentially, almost everything will eventually be in an "antenna farm" not much more than 2 miles in diameter except for the ones that are being "rimshots" anyway.

On the other hand, does it really matter? I couldn't get a good solid lock on KCNC (which is common where I am) so I spun the antenna and am watching KKTV with a signal of 75 to 80. Now I am watching this great signal and have never seen CBS have so much trouble with motion :( I wont comment about the Broncos so far...

KMGH and KUSA are slated to keep their current analog frequencies (7 and 9) after the transition.

Does this mean that 7 & 9 will be their digital channels? If so won't we need a UHF VHF combined antenna instead of just a UHF antenna?

Yes, that will be the case. You might be lucky with your antenna, the CM4228 actually works fairly well on VHF-hi, I can verify that as KKTV-11 broadcasts on ch.10 and as I posted a couple hours ago I receive 11 with a great signal on a 4228.

Does this mean that 7 & 9 will be their digital channels? If so won't we need a VHF antenna instead of just a UHF antenna?
That would depend on your current UHF antenna's ability to pick up the high VHF frequencies. Some are decent(CM 4228) and some aren't. However, 7 is getting pretty low(But no lower than sCARE :p ). :confused:
....jc

That got me curious so I just tried aiming my 4228 at lookout and tuned to 7 analog. It does come in quite well but I am using a big preamp (7777) to receive RP

I tried getting 7 & 9 analog on a MYHD MDP-130 card attached to a DB-4 antenna in my attic.
It receives the current digital channels without issues. I have always had issues with an attic antenna & analog channels (the only reason I have basic Comcast which just keeps getting worse and worse). With the MDP-130 I was able to receive the analog 7 & 9 but the image is extremely poor to the point of being unwatchable. Although on the bright side the signal strength meter registered 100%, none of the digital stations have such a high signal strength indication. I expect (hope) the image of 7 & 9 will improve drastically when the transmissions are switched from analog to digital at those frequencies. I do have an outside DB2 but without some major rewire I can't check it's analog reception at this time.

Yes it does improve your chances. Dry Creek is a high point almost due south of Republic Plaza (RP). There is a low spot between Easter and Arapahoe, but outside of that area you've got good line of sight, which isn't a guarantee, but doesn't hurt when trying to obtain the low power signals.

Well, I went out today and bought a Terk HDTVi. As predicted, it really didn't work. The only OTA channel I got was KWGN. I moved the antenna around but nothing helped. According to the AntennaWeb street-level map for my address, the channels come in from all directions, so I wasn't all that surprised with the very poor results. So, it looks like I'll have to put something up on the roof. Just not sure how or when I'll do it.:(

Let's face it, if they really wanted to expedite the tower construction, they could. Of course, it would cost LCG more $$$, but it could be done. Once construction actually starts, about the only things that couldn't be avoided are weather related: Wind & Lightning. The rest can be managed. Hypothetical timeline:

Looking at your timeline and what it took to put up the 1200' tower here, I was thinking that it was too quick for the tower itself. But, it reality it isn't. The timeline was practically the same for the 1200' as you are thinking for the 730', which means it really shouldn't cost extra as they have 40% less tower to put up in the same amount of time. Plus, they didn't work lots of extra hours on the local tower... they couldn't. First off, daylight was a consideration, but the main reason why they had to be done at a certain time most of the week is that part of the land was also a little league field (three diamonds, so all work aloft had to be done, yet they still made the dealines.

The only unknown is that building that will be part of the mountain. We didn't have that problem :)

As I said in a previous posting, I believe that the thing can be done on 2007, you seem to agree, but others will probably site the building as a holdup.

Either way, I think two years is way too long for construction.

BTW, wouldn't it be weird if you ended up with the same crew that built the local Madison Tower?

Now I am watching this great signal and have never seen CBS have so much trouble with motion :( I wont comment about the Broncos so far...

I'll lay odds that the problem you are seeing not with CBS, but the station you are watching. Does the station have any SD streams as well?

Even if they don't, the CBS network mux bitrate is in the 45Mbps range. The video averages 35Mbps. I'm not a football fan, but a friend needed some high bitrate football video for some project a friend of his was doing and I was the only person he knew that could get it. I saw zero macroblocking problems with the football game that I captured onto the computer. I've never seen any problems with the CBS shows that I do watch either (Ghost Whisperer/Jericho).

It ain't CBS.

I'll lay odds that the problem you are seeing not with CBS, but the station you are watching. Does the station have any SD streams as well?

Even if they don't, the CBS network mux bitrate is in the 45Mbps range.
HaHaHa! That is funny! So what? And What?

The max bit rate for OTA is what? 19.2 Mbs? That's less than half the CBS network feed to the affiliates. Am I wrong?

While, thanks to KCNC's lack of a signal to the South, I watched the same game from broadcast from Cheyenne, the macroblocking was easily visible(pathetic at times).

The video averages 35Mbps.
Fine. And, just where is the viewing public supposed to go to see a decent picture?

It can't happen OTA(at > 19.2 Mbs); it happ'nin with D*, and I know that no CableCo is allocating that much bandwidth.
....jc

Fine. And, just where is the viewing public supposed to go to see a decent picture?

BINGO! You just hit the nail on the head. I have been saying for the longest time, in many places, that the current ATSC standard sucks... it is bit starved and the tie-wearing idiots at TV stations want to bit-starve the HD stream even more.

The MPEG-2 HD video stream requires a lot more bits than what as been allocated to it within the 6 MHz bandwidth. We are stuck with it, since it can't be upgraded to MPEG-4.

We are never going to see the best video possible with ATSC. :(

The other point is that it is not the network that is providing the inferior video, it is the fact that it has to be transmitted by ATSC that is the problem.

HaHaHa! That is funny! So what? And What?

The max bit rate for OTA is what? 19.2 Mbs? That's less than half the CBS network feed to the affiliates. Am I wrong?

While, thanks to KCNC's lack of a signal to the South, I watched the same game from broadcast from Cheyenne, the macroblocking was easily visible(pathetic at times).


Fine. And, just where is the viewing public supposed to go to see a decent picture?

It can't happen OTA(at > 19.2 Mbs); it happ'nin with D*, and I know that no CableCo is allocating that much bandwidth.
....jc

IMO, I would not recommend judging the CBS network PQ from what you see from the Cheyenne CBS station. It IS pathetic, especially during football - ever since they added that worthless subchannel a couple years ago (not to mention their sound has always been messed up, with SD material only heard from the rear speakers). Macroblocking is incredibly bad. They won't listen to anyone and I gave up on them completely. Only via the LA CBS feed could I watching anything on CBS (still not great, but far better). Also, there's a greenish cast to everything on the Cheyenne station. I've been quite amazed that there haven't been more complaints about them. The D* Mpeg4 (for those in the Denver DMA - not sure of your status there) is miles and miles better than the Cheyenne station. CBS on D* HD-LIL is near perfect on my 1080P pj on 105" diag. screen. I think for stations that have such a poor viewing experience, there's only the hope that more and more people complain as they get into HD. But as far as I can tell, the Cheyenne station doesn't believe anyone right now, or they think that their audience size doesn't warrant another penny. I would hope that stations would/should provide a better viewing experience on their digital channel, not worse!

If you think about what is involved, it is confusing. Most TV markets only had to install antenna's on existing towers and new digital transmitters in the old buildings - simple. Our situation is different than just about every other market.Actually, NYC has had somewhat similar issues in that stations had to change to new transmitter sites and order and install all new digital transmission equipment after the destruction of the facilities atop (and the rest of) WTC 1.

A major consideration with the scheduling any engineering/construction project is factoring in the procurement lead time. If your tower parts, antennas and transmitter equipments are currently stored in a nearby warehouse, putting the whole thing together during the upcoming year is doable. But, even that's assuming the crews are not committed elsewhere to other projects.

However, there is currently a world wide buying frenzy for new broadcast hardware as everyone goes digital. So Denver just might need to stand in line and wait its turn to buy things. I'm still thinking 2 years is close. sCARE's outhouse can be finished if it doesn't have zoning problems.

--- CHAS

Time to start a new pool and guess the on-air date. What happened to the last pool?

Merry Christmas to All, and a Happy New Year!

Time to start a new pool and guess the on-air date. What happened to the last pool?

Merry Christmas to All, and a Happy New Year!
May 2008

I think we're going to need to be more specific (day, not just month). And on-air date for any (not all) of the stations broadcasting from the new tower.

October 6, 2008.

Winner gets a free hot dog at the tower BBQ?

Merry Christmas, everyone. Let's hope the present we received really does turn out the way we expect.

Didn't RonAuger keep the last pool?

I put in 7/22/08 (5 years to the day that the Commissioners first approved of the LCGII tower)

I'm actually a little east of Broadway and north of Dry Creek. Does that increase my chances of being able to use an indoor antenna? I decided I'll give it a shot. If it doesn't work, I can always return it. BTW, what is "RP"? Thanks. :)

RP is Republic Plaza which is where channel 4, 6, 7, and 9 have their low power transmitters. Lookout Mountain is where the current (or most of them) analog stations broadcast from and IIRC 2, 20 and 31 digital originates. I am doing this from memory, so corrections are welcome.

I would think that from where you are a small external antenna pointed at RP would be all that you need to get everything. In addition to my large antenna (RS VU120) I have a small one (I think a VU40 or maybe 60) that is connected to a bedroom TV and my PC DTV card. I get (with a small cheap 10 DB pre-amp) all of the local DTV signals just fine using it. It is simply on a 10 foot piece of mast. Everything for that setup cost under $100 and took around two hours to install.
BTW everyone, what happened to the reception maps that Ron put together? I was going to link to them, but none of the links that I found work today?

Anyway, KRAM160, if you want to go through this thread and try to find somone close to you, please do. Note that the info for channel 7 is out of date since they moved their transmitter from their studios to RP. The reason I put up the big antenna was to get channel 7 for things like Monday Night Football. This never worked, but since they moved to RP, even my small antenna does just fine for them.

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168587&highlight=denver+data

20's DTV low-power transmitter is also originating from RP.

P.S. I have to update the denverdtv.info (http://www.denverdtv.info) site. It's been a while.

Merry Christmas everyone!!

I will give a date of 10/12/08. Unfortunately I just dont see them spending extra to rush the project.

Top of the page! Now I have to figure out what that gets me... :)

On another thought, I really hope LCG has a formal groundbreaking, we should all go there and cheer!

Winner gets a free hot dog at the tower BBQ?

If you manage to get the same tower construction company, forget hot dogs, as they slow cook a mean bunch of ribs and I don't care for ribs (spare of meat).

May the force be with you :)

1st of all Merry Christmas(or Happy Hanukkah) to all!

The architects and engineers have been working nonstop on the new tower project. A contact of mine, Marty, who works for the firm Golden, Sucks & BigOne, has provided me with some preliminary renderings of the proposed Outhouse to be built on the LCG property.

He indicated that they wanted to keep the 'look' authentic. He gave me permission to post the rendering here:

http://www.panelcrafters.net/Debs_Outhouse.jpg

....jc

RP is Republic Plaza which is where channel 4, 6, 7, and 9 have their low power transmitters.

As Corrected channel 20 is also at Republic Plaza:
Check this link for more info than you probably want about RP including its location:

http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&lr=&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&q=republic+plaza&near=Denver,+CO&sa=X&oi=local&ct=title

Phil P.

Is KRMA down for anyone else? I haven't seen anyone complain here, so I'm starting to think it might be my tuner acting up...

And is KDVR sending out any guide data? I've been seeing "No Information Available" from them in the guide for the past month and a half.

1/30/2008 (My birthday and wishful thinking)

KRMA is coming in fine for me on 3 different receivers. I am not getting guide information for KFCT/KDVR on my OTA Accurian receivers. KDVR guide data is coming in via E* on my satellite receivers. (E* doesn't provide guide data for KFCT)

For the Office Pool, 5/21/2008.

Thanks Mike.

I figured it was me, because my tuner has been acting weird over the last few days. I sure hope this damn thing isn't trying to die on me already! Maybe I'll leave it unplugged overnight and see if that does anything.

And now I guess I'll send an email off to KDVR...

Is KRMA down for anyone else? I haven't seen anyone complain here, so I'm starting to think it might be my tuner acting up...

And is KDVR sending out any guide data? I've been seeing "No Information Available" from them in the guide for the past month and a half.

I didn't notice KRMA being down. It was up for me at 7 to 8 pm last night.
I too have lost guide info on 4, 6 and 31 for at least a week.

I'll guess 6/30/2008. IMO, the 'go digital or go dark' theme should keep any judge from taking this on for (s)CARE. I can't imagine a judge wanting to be known for taking TV shows away from that many people. No $50 converter will fix this one. I think the net effect of the tower not being built, and with the BCC just waiting for digital to give them an excuse (err, reason) to shut the existing towers down, local businesses would suffer hardship from having less advertising viewers, which would also override any micro-localism issue. So, I think finding a judge to take this on would be very difficult at best. I've been wrong before, though...

Edited: My original question was on the SHVERA, but after re-reading it, I found the answer.

I will guess 9/7/08,

That would get it online for the fall season in 2008 and just a bit ahead of the transition deadline. I still suspect a lot of mind-numbing delays which will stretch out construction, but I will guess all of the stations will be pushing hard to get on the air before the 08 fall season so as not to interrupt possible ratings with a move (prior to the 09 deadline) halfway into the ratings season, just in case there are a lot of technical problems with the new setup. You don't want to be debugging transmitter issues during sweeps week.

Hope everyone had a great holiday yesterday, that last minute present from "W" was sure a nice surprise for under the tree.

Pro-tower letter in the Post today.

http://www.denverpost.com/letters

Pro-tower letter in the Post today.

http://www.denverpost.com/letters
I believe that to be our very own: gakon!

Let'um have it!
....jc

Thank you, gakon! I wish these guys would just leave the term "HDTV", and even "Digital"out of it. It really makes us sound like snobby rich bastards. And as much as I enjoy being thought of as a snobby rich bastard, as I'm far from one, it's not really helping our side.

BTW, leaving my receiver unplugged over night actually worked! KRMA is coming in loud and clear now.

Thank you, gakon! I wish these guys would just leave the term "HDTV", and even "Digital"out of it. It really makes us sound like snobby rich bastards.
Yea, that is a problem. The general public, and certainly the 'talking heads' don't seem to have a clue. And, I wish that they would stop writing crapola that isn't true. Gakon did a good job of saying 'That isn't true'.
....jc

Thanks, guys. The whole letter was longer (probably 199 words); mostly sarcasm and some kudos to the senators. But the important part was printed.

Hello. I found out today that I can order a Winegard (sp?) antenna from DirecTV and Ironwood will come and install it. Total cost is $49. However, the Ironwood guy I talked to said that they do not guarantee reception or picture quality, which depend on where you live (just east of Broadway, between Arapahoe and Dry Creek).


Based on my location, what kind of reception should I expect?
If not on a rotor, will I get all channels?
How good is a Winegard antenna?


Thanks for your advice. :)

Hello. I found out today that I can order a Winegard (sp?) antenna from DirecTV and Ironwood will come and install it. Total cost is $49. However, the Ironwood guy I talked to said that they do not guarantee reception or picture quality, which depend on where you live (just east of Broadway, between Arapahoe and Dry Creek).


Based on my location, what kind of reception should I expect?
If not on a rotor, will I get all channels?
How good is a Winegard antenna?


Thanks for your advice. :)

If you can see the downtown highrises from your planned antenna location I would think you would have great reception. If you are down in the gully it becomes more iffy. I'm at Holly & County Line and I get decent reception from all the local channels. From my antenna's position I cannot see downtown but it's a fair distance before the view is obstructed so direct line of sight is not an absolute requirement.

I also have an attic antenna and it too gets decent reception.

I doubt that you will need a rotor.

Winegard makes several antennas.

Note: Your DirecTV dish will need to be looking South and slightly to the East. Your
OTA antenna will need to be looking North and slightly to the West. Opposite directions.

If you can see the downtown highrises from your planned antenna location I would think you would have great reception. If you are down in the gully it becomes more iffy. I'm at Holly & County Line and I get decent reception from all the local channels. From my antenna's position I cannot see downtown but it's a fair distance before the view is obstructed so direct line of sight is not an absolute requirement.

I also have an attic antenna and it too gets decent reception.

I doubt that you will need a rotor.

Winegard makes several antennas.

Note: Your DirecTV dish will need to be looking South and slightly to the East. Your
OTA antenna will need to be looking North and slightly to the West. Opposite directions.

Thanks so much for the information! Since I've never been up on the roof, I don't know if downtown Denver is visible. But for just $50, I think it's worth a try -- especially since installation is included (and I assume the Ironwood folks know what they're doing -- at least I've had good luck with them)!

Pro-tower letter in the Post today.

http://www.denverpost.com/letters

Great letter gakon. Since "W" signed the bill its been pretty quiet from the (S)CARE side. I hope that doesn't mean they are waiting to 'explode' on another front.

Time to start a new pool and guess the on-air date. What happened to the last pool?donyoop had the latest date of Nov 12 2005 in the last pool. I think another pool would just show how pitifully and incessantly optimistic we are. Have we learned nothing all these years?

I'll take my 50th B'day -- March 28 2009;)

Is KRMA down for anyone else? I haven't seen anyone complain here, so I'm starting to think it might be my tuner acting up...

And is KDVR sending out any guide data? I've been seeing "No Information Available" from them in the guide for the past month and a half.

I'm still receiving KRMA.

Not getting OTA guide info on KRMA (6), KDVR (31). :confused:

Couldn't get guide on KCNC (4) last night but it's there now.

Time to start a new pool and guess the on-air date. What happened to the last pool?

Merry Christmas to All, and a Happy New Year!

September 29, 2008

July 19, 2008 (daughters birthday!)

Did anybody happen the catch the City of Golden's December 14th meeting on webcast?
Of course not it was never made available.
For anybody interested it is now available (http://www.cityofgolden.net/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=72).

I watched about half of it. I am really surprised that these ..apparently, bungling idiots ever got as far in their obstruntionist desires as they have. They must have a bunch of money and some really good attorneys!

For anybody interested it is now available (http://www.cityofgolden.net/SectionIndex.asp?SectionID=72).

Just finished watching the session. FYI, the tower issue is discussed for about 45 minutes at the very start.

Watching the video it is impossible not to be struck by the effectiveness of the (S)CARE scare tactics on the local citizens. Many of the speakers talked about the effects of radiation on cancer levels etc. (even though the new tower would reduce those levels), and one woman even brought her small baby to the podium to ask how it would affect the children. Another again brought up his 'fact' that during construction the new tower could fall on the support wires of the old one and bring it all crashing down. I was surprised he didn't mention the school bus full of children that would be driving by below just as the towers fall. If you are 'new' to this battle and want to get a good sense of what the last 6 years or so of opposition has been up to, this is a great way to see the arguments which have been made.

There was a story about Channel 21, which serves the DelMarVa area, going digital early and leaving over the air viewers without TV. They either need to buy a new TV or some sort of converter. The problem .. affordable converters are not widely available and new TVs with ATSC cost at least $500. So viewers with perfectly good analog TVs are furious.

Can analog be shut off and digital begin early in a large Metro area before those Government provided $50 set top boxes are available? :rolleyes:

--- CHAS

If you are 'new' to this battle and want to get a good sense of what the last 6 years or so of opposition has been up to, this is a great way to see the arguments which have been made.I agree. They only thing missing is when their Rhetoric machine went off track and they started spewing the stories of talking toasters and Stephen King wheel-chairs driving themselves off cliffs. That was one of their big PR mistakes. The other is yelling 'fire' that all RF is dangerous and "You should not build towers near people". That's backfired now that they're insisting on building the tower on Squaw near those familes and children. It's complete NIMBYism in the worst way.

sCARE has done some things right, but others they've screwed the pooch badly. If they just would have tried to be cooperative and negotiated, it could have been a win-win, now, it's a knock-out.

There was a story about Channel 21, which serves the DelMarVa area, going digital early and leaving over the air viewers without TV. They either need to buy a new TV or some sort of converter. The problem .. affordable converters are not widely available and new TVs with ATSC cost at least $500. So viewers with perfectly good analog TVs are furious.

Can analog be shut off and digital begin early in a large Metro area before those Government provided $50 set top boxes are available? :rolleyes:

--- CHAS

Was in Walmart last night -32 inch iLo SDTV with built in ATSC tuner (not sure if it included QAM as well) - under $300.

And yes - the stations DO have that option...

FYI, I actually just sent a letter to Senator Allard to try to get more information about the plan to distribute boxes and/or vouchers. I think this is a big deal, because I'd bet the people that most need this equipment are the least likely to know about it. This could easily be a big fiasco. Does anyone even make a cheap, standalone, ATSC tuner?

I watched the public comment part (or listened while I was doing other stuff on the computer) and my impression was that people were upset about public health risks and federal intervention.

From my POV, the health risk concern was based on the idea that RF was going up and that there was something "new" being added to the mountain. My personal understanding is that nothing "new" is being done and that total RF will be going down once analog is shut off.

The anger at federal intervention seems completely misplaced when Golden threatened emminent domain and condemnation against property which they neither own nor have jurisdiction over. If they are concerned about government overstepping its bounds, perhaps they should look in the mirror and realize that they should have worked through the JeffCo commissioners rather than threatening to intervene in an issue outside their boundaries.

I hope that LCG will be gracious and continue with all the improvements that they have promised and perhaps try and come up with additional benefits to the local community around Lookout mountain. Extending the olive branch, as it were, to try and soften the blow to those that opposed the tower.

I watched the public comment part .................

The anger at federal intervention seems completely misplaced when Golden threatened emminent domain and condemnation against property which they neither own nor have jurisdiction over. If they are concerned about government overstepping its bounds, perhaps they should look in the mirror and realize that they should have worked through the JeffCo commissioners rather than threatening to intervene in an issue outside their boundaries...........
I agree, there is a lot of misplaced anger in the 'show'. The whole eminent domain issue was really overstepping to begin with, but what really keeps getting ignored by the speakers is that the land is not even in Golden and not even up against the city line at this time. It strikes me about as legal as if Boulder tried use eminent domain to take over Flatirons Crossing Mall (after all the Flatirons are IN Boulder) in order to get the additional tax base, even though the center is not close to Boulder.

I find it interesting you would think the LCG tower is the only tower on the mountain producing RF. If RF? is such a concern why aren't they attacking all the other RF producing towers. Yes I know some people are miss led and others really just want all the towers eliminated all together and LCG would be a good start.
Are realtor signs starting to show up? Probably not realtors sell for a commission and now that their houses have lost there value there is no commission to be made.
When I watched the video I thought I was back in the BCC hearing room.
This smoking thing bothers me. Cigarettes were not made illegal. You still have the choice to smoke or not. I am sure there are people who oppose this tower, but still choose to endanger their health by smoking.
Now there is a new choice stay or move.

I agree, there is a lot of misplaced anger in the 'show'. And this is exactly why I posted my comments on SCARE earlier. They are responsible for virtually all of the misleading information concerning RF and they've been so convincing - and so able to stir up emotional fears - that no amount of real facts are going to sway peoples opinions. They are conditioned to believe that broadcasters, the FCC, and us (proponents), will say anything to justify our stance. We all know the truth but we cannot convince them because we're not one of them. It took me awhile to really dislike and abhor SCARE tactics but after the "RF causes sleep deprivation" position I was convinced that SCARE really did not (and does not) care about truth, justice, (or the American way). It became clearly obvious that they would do and say anything that aided their cause and if that meant creating unfounded and undue fear amongst their audience so be it (I guess their thinking was all is fair in war). To me though SCARE amounts to nothing more than domestic terrorists. Sure, perhaps not as deadly as terrorists per-se but when you spread fear based on lies and information devoid of facts you are, in essence, spreading terror. To be perfectly clear it is for this reason I think they should all rot in hell and not because they are denying us (you) our HDTV.

Does anyone even make a cheap, standalone, ATSC tuner?
No. Well, not that I've seen. Samsung just came out with a new one the DTB-H260F. $179 MSRP. Some good reviews.

The 'meeting' yea, wooo, I doubt that I could spend more than 5 minutes in a room with those people. Talk about a pack of 'right brainers'.

The lady at the podium with a baby was a classic. And, RF compared to second hand smoke? Another classic.

That meeting would've been the perfect place to introduce a few 'ringers'. My thoughts went back to the 70's and the Not Ready For Primetime Players.

It starts of with Samurai John Belushi in the appropriate garb:
http://www.belushi.com/pics/sd/sd7.jpg

Telling the crowd how he can't do w/o a new tower for his new TV. He ends the diatibe by chopping the podium to bits.

Add Chevy Chase, Gilda Radner, Dan Aykroyd, Jane Curtain, Garrett Morris & Laraine Newman.

I could just see all of the people running and screaming as they left City Hall.
....jc

........................Sure, perhaps not as deadly as terrorists per-se but when you spread fear based on lies and information devoid of facts you are, in essence, spreading terror. To be perfectly clear it is for this reason I think they should all rot in hell and not because they are denying us (you) our HDTV.
That's why we miss your words of wisdom here in the thread, Geof, you were always the one to state, but certainly not overstate, the case. The spread of disinformation and fear among many for political and economic gain of a few is unconscionable, especially when you can tell by the clever wording of many of the press releases by Deb C. and Al H. that they understand EXACTLY what they are doing.

I agree with you 100% except for the 'rot' part, that might imply to some that it would be a 'finite' existence that would end at some point. I prefer to think they don't 'rot' and are able to enjoy the environment for all eternity. Just a minor but satisfying difference IMO. I might even round up a few volunteer 'mothers with children' to stand by just to watch their enjoyment.
:cool:

With all the (s)Care hype you'd think all that RF could melt Golden's snow. No need for plows there. What a cost savings!! ;)

My Slimline dish got covered tonight. I thought I could still get digital OTA but my HR10 locked up.

I am now on analog rabbit ears. :(

FYI, I actually just sent a letter to Senator Allard to try to get more information about the plan to distribute boxes and/or vouchers. I think this is a big deal, because I'd bet the people that most need this equipment are the least likely to know about it. This could easily be a big fiasco. Does anyone even make a cheap, standalone, ATSC tuner?
I don't think you'll see much publicity on this until we get a lot closer to conversion date. As I recall, the estimated cost (after subsidies/vouchers) was in the neighborhood of $50. But unlike the STBs which are currently on the market, these would be very limited devices, only capable of producing SD output for legacy NTSC televisions.

I find it interesting you would think the LCG tower is the only tower on the mountain producing RF. If RF? is such a concern why aren't they attacking all the other RF producing towers. Yes I know some people are miss led and others really just want all the towers eliminated all together and LCG would be a good start.
Are realtor signs starting to show up? Probably not realtors sell for a commission and now that their houses have lost there value there is no commission to be made.
When I watched the video I thought I was back in the BCC hearing room.
This smoking thing bothers me. Cigarettes were not made illegal. You still have the choice to smoke or not. I am sure there are people who oppose this tower, but still choose to endanger their health by smoking.
Now there is a new choice stay or move.
THE LCG guys came to Fort Collins and said that the three towers represent 5% of the total RF emissions.

THE LCG guys came to Fort Collins and said that the three towers represent 5% of the total RF emissions.True, but the sCARE war machine hammers TV, TV, TV and never ever mentions radio. It's like 'lil 'ol radio doesn't exist!

If they were fighting a proposed radio tower, you'd never hear the words TV. Their propaganda machine is on-message. Too bad, they just got their asses kicked by the LCG's bigger, better machine.

FYI, I actually just sent a letter to Senator Allard to try to get more information about the plan to distribute boxes and/or vouchers. I think this is a big deal, because I'd bet the people that most need this equipment are the least likely to know about it. This could easily be a big fiasco. Does anyone even make a cheap, standalone, ATSC tuner?

More info on the vouchers and other related info can be found here (http://www.ntia.doc.gov)

I agree with you 100% except for the 'rot' part, that might imply to some that it would be a 'finite' existence that would end at some point. I prefer to think they don't 'rot' and are able to enjoy the environment for all eternity....
:cool:Excellent point. I'll take back the rot part.

OT
I guess I picked a good good winter to skip in Denver. I would have never thought I've see less snow in Buffalo versus Denver but you guys sure got snow this year. I've only seen about 6" in my driveway so far and it's supposed to be a mild winter here (then again we have a long ways till spring). The even plow all the roads here! So far I've yet to have any problems with snow on my D* Dish. I get all the local OTA signals but I do get a lot of momentary breakups - more so than I got in Denver even with the pathetic reception I had from RP.

Happy New year guys...may '07 bring the sound of construction atop Lookout!!!!

More info on the vouchers and other related info can be found here (http://www.ntia.doc.gov)
Thanks, Mark.

What's up with KRMA-DT? Every few days they lose their virtual channel (6-1) identification on my Dish 811 receiver and revert to the actual channel 18. Screws up my program guide and Favorites lists over and over again. As a result of these problems and the lack of much to watch on their DTV telecasts anymore, I've deleted them from my channel lists pending the analog to digital conversion date.

What's up with KRMA-DT? Every few days they lose their virtual channel (6-1) identification on my Dish 811 receiver and revert to the actual channel 18. Screws up my program guide and Favorites lists over and over again. As a result of these problems and the lack of much to watch on their DTV telecasts anymore, I've deleted them from my channel lists pending the analog to digital conversion date.

Haven't had an issue with KRMA-DT other than no guide on a SIR-T451.
Could it be that you lose their signal?

I don't have an HDTV yet, but am planning on getting one soon and I was wondering if the local HD signals (ABC,NBC,CBS,FOX) in Denver are broadcast in 16:9 or 4:3? Thanks!

I don't have an HDTV yet, but am planning on getting one soon and I was wondering if the local HD signals (ABC,NBC,CBS,FOX) in Denver are broadcast in 16:9 or 4:3? Thanks!
Some shows are 16:9 (typically the HDTV shows) others are 4:3.
Get an account here and
Titan TV (http://www.titantv.com) will show what shows are actual HD and what are Standard Digital (4:3).

Ah... a Newbie!

Welcome. Yes, the locals both over-the-air, Cable and Sat are in 16:9. But, not all programming is in HD 16:9. Almost all primetime is (and 9News), but other programming is SD 4:3.

Over-the-air HD reception depends on your location.

Ah... a Newbie!

Welcome. Yes, the locals both over-the-air, Cable and Sat are in 16:9. But, not all programming is in HD 16:9. Almost all primetime is (and 9News), but other programming is SD 4:3.

Over-the-air HD reception depends on your location.

Not to mention that OTA SD has noticeably better PQ than SD via cable or satellite.

Ah... a Newbie!

Welcome. Yes, the locals both over-the-air, Cable and Sat are in 16:9. But, not all programming is in HD 16:9. Almost all primetime is (and 9News), but other programming is SD 4:3.

Over-the-air HD reception depends on your location.

So, for OTA digital broadcasts, the locals will have some HD and some SD content, with all of the HD being 16:9 and most of the SD being 4:3? Is that right?

If I subscribe to my Dish Network HD channels, will they also have this mix of 4:3 and 16:9 content as well?

Another question I have deals with the Dish 811 receiver I have. I can seem to toggle through all 5 stretch modes on the HD side but I can't toggle through all the stretch modes on the SD side. of course right now I am just hooked up to a 10 year old Sony CRT but nonetheless I would think I could still change the settings. Anybody with this same receiver?

Thanks!

One thing to note, Dish only has 4, 7, 9 & 31. They don't have 2, 6, 12, 20 or any of the other religious/independent channels yet. 6 would be nice and I'm sure it'll be added soon. Also, OTA, you may be able to receive all of them (depending on location) and their sub-channels like 9.2 which is 24hr weather.

The picture size 16:9 and 4:3 is the same on all carriers. It just depends on what the network provides. Dish, Directv, Comcast etc doesn't alter it.

My Dish receiver (and most receivers) have the ability to change the aspect on SD material. I don't zoom it up to fit because it usually looks crappy. I would rather watch it pillarboxed with black bars and sharper than bigger and blurry. But, you may prefer it zoomed/stretched.

So, for OTA digital broadcasts, the locals will have some HD and some SD content, with all of the HD being 16:9 and most of the SD being 4:3? Is that right?
Thanks!

Yes, No major network is broadcasting every show in HD. Most have some HD in the evening. When the show is not HD it is broadcasted in SD. So yes your DirecTV will be likewise.

Haven't had an issue with KRMA-DT other than no guide on a SIR-T451.
Could it be that you lose their signal?

No, their signal is strong and steady on my Dish 811, about 85%. The problem is that every few days their PSIP data is screwed up or something, because the channel comes in as 18-1 instead of the virtual channel 6-1. It usually corrects a few days later, but it is annoying that the signal data is so haphazard.

If I subscribe to my Dish Network HD channels, will they also have this mix of 4:3 and 16:9 content as well?

Another question I have deals with the Dish 811 receiver I have. I can seem to toggle through all 5 stretch modes on the HD side but I can't toggle through all the stretch modes on the SD side. of course right now I am just hooked up to a 10 year old Sony CRT but nonetheless I would think I could still change the settings. Anybody with this same receiver?

Thanks!

If you subscribe to the Dish HD channels, they are all HD, all the time (yeah, some of the stuff appears to be upscaled and/or stretched and not true HD, but for all practical purposes, those channels are all widescreen HD viewing).

With the Dish 811, you only get all the aspect ratio options with a DVI or component output. If you use an S-Video or composite output, there are fewer aspect ratio options.

One thing to note, Dish only has 4, 7, 9 & 31. They don't have 2, 6, 12, 20 or any of the other religious/independent channels yet.

I know you didn't mean it Ernie, but this post would imply that DTV might have additional HD. DTV only has the same 4 right now. Both providers are pretty much bandwidth limited and probably won't expand local HD until new satellites are launched next year.

Back on topic. Has anybody heard of any progress on LCG applying for construction permits to get started?

BTW, my vote is considerably earlier for towers. I predict November, 2007.

Ah... a Newbie!

Welcome. Yes, the locals both over-the-air, Cable and Sat are in 16:9. But, not all programming is in HD 16:9. Almost all primetime is (and 9News), but other programming is SD 4:3.

Over-the-air HD reception depends on your location.

And to a newbie the answers provided to his question can be a little misleading, especially since we do not know what he knows, or doesn't know about HDTV.

The correct information is that all of the network affiliates are broadcasting in HD 16:9. They do not switch their digital signal to SD 4:3 when that is the material they are airing. All SD 4:3 video is upconverted to the HD format the particular station is using (720p or 1080i) and I believe everyone in Denver is pillar barring the video (black vertical bars on the left and right to fill the 16:9 space).

IIRC, does the Denver PBS station actually switch between SDTV and HDTV? That has got to be annoying.

FYI, I actually just sent a letter to Senator Allard to try to get more information about the plan to distribute boxes and/or vouchers. I think this is a big deal, because I'd bet the people that most need this equipment are the least likely to know about it. This could easily be a big fiasco. Does anyone even make a cheap, standalone, ATSC tuner?

No, but there really isn't any demand. NTSC won't be shut down for a couple of years.

For there to be a cheap ATSC tuner, you'd want to strip out HDMI, Component, Optical outputs, etc. RF in and RF out. Downscale everything to 480i, send it out on channel 3.

Who would buy this? The people who would already have NTSC, and will wait for some kind of voucher.

In two years, I would expect someone to manufacture such a box, and it should be pretty inexpensive.

Back on topic. Has anybody heard of any progress on LCG applying for construction permits to get started?I've emailed Pete and the boys and haven't heard back yet. Holidays.

For there to be a cheap ATSC tuner, you'd want to strip out HDMI, Component, Optical outputs, etc. RF in and RF out. Downscale everything to 480i, send it out on channel 3.

Besides the RF output (channel 3 or 4), there will also be composite video and analog Dolby Stereo out. The simple RF modulator will need composite video. Probably use the same cheap RF modulators found in VCRs. Because of that, the box will already have baseband video and audio, so supplying those on the output will pretty much be a must by a lot of people.

Just my 5 cents (inflation) :)

One has to wonder how much of a market there will be for that box though - I mean, you can buy a whole new SDTV with the builtin ATSC tuner for under $300 right now.

Since the boxes are supposed to be cheap ~$50 or so it can breath life back into a usable analog TV that won't pick up digital after the shutoff. I have a 32" Sony (XBR square not XBR2 also know as 32XBR100) that IMO for picture quality on NTSC analog has never been matched.

IIRC, does the Denver PBS station actually switch between SDTV and HDTV? That has got to be annoying.You're correct, sort of.

KRMA-DT switches to 16:9 1080i HD only between the hours of 6:00 PM and Midnight when they show PBS HD programming. The balance of the time (most of which is filled with "PBS Create" programming) they broadcast in 4:3 480i. I don't believe the other Denver PBS affiliate, KBDI-DT, broadcasts any 1080i HD.

Frankly, I actually do wish the other stations would do this as well, simply because my monitor is one that will not allow stretch or zoom modes to work when fed an HD signal, so when an affiliate is sending 4:3 programming in 720p or 1080i, I'm stuck with sidebars.

One has to wonder how much of a market there will be for that box though - I mean, you can buy a whole new SDTV with the builtin ATSC tuner for under $300 right now.The market for that box will be the same people who are receiving only OTA TV now because they cannot afford cable or satellite. They almost certainly cannot afford to purchase a new TV, even if it is less than $300.

Since the boxes are supposed to be cheap ~$50 or so it can breath life back into a usable analog TV that won't pick up digital after the shutoff. I have a 32" Sony (XBR square not XBR2 also know as 32XBR100) that IMO for picture quality on NTSC analog has never been matched.And do you feed it solely OTA NTSC programming, or do you have cable or satellite?

IMHO the converter boxes are far more likely to be used for small portable televisions, like those found in many kitchen, the televisions found in kids' rooms, and in conjunction with VCRs and DVD recorders.

One has to wonder how much of a market there will be for that box though - I mean, you can buy a whole new SDTV with the builtin ATSC tuner for under $300 right now.

Socio-economically speaking, most people who receive TV OTA are likely of a lower demographic... as in some months they must choose between paying for food, rent or heat.

Poverty is still with us and growing.

$300 is quite out of their budget. And when government makes this kind of decision, it can break them completely.

But hey, we have sort-of pristine HDTV!

And on that happy note, I wish all here a Happy New Year. Things can only get better.

And do you feed it solely OTA NTSC programming, or do you have cable or satellite?

IMHO the converter boxes are far more likely to be used for small portable televisions, like those found in many kitchen, the televisions found in kids' rooms, and in conjunction with VCRs and DVD recorders.

Currently its fed basic cable. I could never get an attic antenna to give me a decent signal with analog OTA. With the advent of digital broadcasts I can now use an attic antenna as I have an attic antenna feeding a computer with a MyHD MDP-130 card for digital reception and it gets great reception. I would have no objection to dropping cable.

I think many people will be placing good older larger TVs in their dens, basements etc. These cheap boxes will spare them from the trash heap. They will probably also wind up in the uses you listed as well.

Socio-economically speaking, most people who receive TV OTA are likely of a lower demographic... as in some months they must choose between paying for food, rent or heat.

Poverty is still with us and growing.

Aren't most of us in this forum thread getting free Digital OTA?

I know, I know, what you were referring to.
For me cable/sat TV isn't all that appealing even though I can afford it.
100's of channels yet still nothings on. And the price just goes higher and higher.

I would have dropped basic cable when I got my digital OTA/ HDTV setup going except I got hooked on SG1 but since its ending I may revisit that option.

For me cable/sat TV isn't all that appealing even though I can afford it.
100's of channels yet still nothings on. And the price just goes higher and higher.
What he said.

Obviously there are hundreds of millions who disagree, but I just don't see the value in cable/satellite vs. other ways I have of spending the same money.

The one time that I really need KDVR, it's AWOL(both antennas). I picked it up fine a few weeks ago. My best guess is the copious amounts of snow that we've had down here. And, of course, D*'s Left Coast feed(Fox) is another game :mad: . This will be the 1st Donkie HD game this season that I've missed.

It's always something. :confused:
....jc

It appears to me that The FOX broadcast on 31-1 switched to that 480p widescreen for the Broncos game. Anyone else notice?

Looks like KDVR-DT lost their flange. DirecTV has a slide up. :(

It's back to 16:9 now...

What he said.

Obviously there are hundreds of millions who disagree, but I just don't see the value in cable/satellite vs. other ways I have of spending the same money.

A good AM radio, a good FM radio, a good shortwave radio, an analog and digital TV tuner, and a FTA satellite receiver, plus a bunch of favorite movies, tapes, and CDs............I'm all set! :)

It appears to me that The FOX broadcast on 31-1 switched to that 480p widescreen for the Broncos game. Anyone else notice?

Worst picture I have ever seen for a supposedly HD broadcast.

Does anyone have a FOX31 contact ?

This is painful !!!!

Oh yeah, and it is horrible on both OTA and E*

Anyone get any info yet from Fox on the "HD" (SD) Broncos feed? I tried contact #'s for KDVR but only got a machine. Or should I just quit worrying about it?

Anyone who works at BestBuy, Ultimate, ListenUp better get ready for some HDTV returns after today's "HD" Broncos game

Speculation in the programming thread is that Fox was unable to get all of their HD equipment to Denver due to the bad weather. This can also be seen by the old school score bar. The on air guys also made reference to the yellow first down line equipment was not available due to weather.

That doesn't fly because the game started in HD (I have a friend over who was seeing HDTV for the first time and was "wowed"). Switched over sometime in the 1st quarter.

Worst picture AND worst officiating

Worst picture AND worst officiating

Did anyone else rewind it to the real time action on that play and hear not one but TWO whistles blow before #47 came in to grab the ball as the official was pulling people off the pile to get the ball? Man, what a $h!t call that was. You would think that you would error on NOT ending the season of the team that has something to lose in that game but apparently not. Must be some KC fans on the officiating crew today.

The announcers are talking about how tough it is to put this together. GMAB, they could have had the fox 31 news team cover this in SHD, and we wouldn't hav to listen to the NY/NJ announcers.

Fox should be disallowed the football games! Their camera work leaves a lot to be desired, their equipment doesn't work and overtime was a no show! If you didn't have cable, you saw none of the overtime game OTA.

Pitiful!

Tim

It was amazing that they got this game on the air at all! Sure it was pseudo 'HD', but their damn truck(with all of their equipment) was snowed in(probably on still closed I-70).

Fox should be disallowed the football games! Their camera work leaves a lot to be desired, their equipment doesn't work and overtime was a no show! If you didn't have cable, you saw none of the overtime game OTA.
Mellow dude. I'm not even sure how much of their team was there! Many of the cameras were obviously borrowed SD cameras.

Look at the bright side: We don't have to watch this pitiful bunch of Donkies till August!
....jc

Sideline cameras were HD; upper, wide-view cameras were SD. They mentioned on-air that FSN-RM lent them some equipment. And then there was the dead air in the first half!

If you didn't have cable, you saw none of the overtime game OTA.

Not sure what you mean, Timay. I watched the overtime OTA (not that it was worth watching :mad: )

I watched the overtime OTA (not that it was worth watching )
Interesting! I had a signal of 100%, then nothing! And the whole OT was gone.

Maybe a problem here...I'll check...not to mention the problem the donkies have. I can't believe they got to the 1 yard line more than once and got backed up!?!

Oh, well. Is the new tower up yet?

Tim

I've now joined the rest of you in the OTA world. Until now, I've been using Comcast (and continue to do so). But my new TV has an OTA tuner, so I figured I'd try it. On a channel scan with rabbit ears, I get:
2-1, -2
4-1
6-1, -100, -101 (the latter two have nothing)
7-1
9-1, -2
12-1, -2, -3
20-1
22-1
25-1
31-1
40-1 thru 17 (less -11, and -12; I don't recall if there was anything on any of these).

I got rid of 25-1 and the 40's. My wife and I both didn't like the rabbit ears, so I connected an FM antenna that came with my receiver (single wire about 3' long, plugs into coax). With that, I no longer receive 22-1 (not sure I care) and 4-1 is too unstable to watch. The rest all seem to be pretty solid. I haven't checked the signal strength on most of the ones I still receive, but at least KUSA was coming in about 30-40%. I have pretty good line of sight to downtown. Full power would be nice, though.

I have a couple of questions, been a lurker for awhile...my first post here I believe. I've recently joined the OTA crowd. BTW I saw all the same problems as above with the Donkeys Game, including the cutout of service in the 4th. Tough call, doesn't a whistle mean the play is dead? Broadcast was in SD (StRaNgE Definition) :rolleyes:

Q1: Is there a signal strength meter with Beyond TV? If not, is there a free-ware signal strength meter compatible with an ATI HD Wonder/Windoz PC available? I loaded only Beyond TV SW (I don't seem to find a SSM with this app) and don't want to load the ATI SW because everyone seems to thinks it's bloatware.

Q2: I'm considering putting a Channel Master 4221 Antenna in my attic. I'm at 225 and I25, SE corner in a little bit of a hole and I have the office buildings nearby. Anyone had success with this antenna from a similar distance ? I've selected this antenna as it's NOT highly directional and I'm hoping to not have to install a rotor. Downtown is 9.1 miles at 316 degrees and Green Mountain is 19.4 miles at 280 degrees on the compass. The only other source I care about is KBDI at 266 degrees and 32 miles in Broomfield. Anyone from a similar area or distance from the transmitters had success with this? Right now I'm using the indoor antenna that came with the card, I get reception, but inconsistent. I need to solve the signal strength meter issue to help with aiming. Thanks!

The only other source I care about is KBDI at 266 degrees and 32 miles in Broomfield. FWIW, the KBDI transmitter is on Squaw Mountain (which is consistent with the distance and orientation you gave), not in Broomfield.

Hey to everyone in the thread. Just want to wish you all a Happy New Year of 2007!
:D

This year (finally) for the first time in the life of the thread, we enter the year with some sense of optimism that we may finally see full power HD here in the metro Denver area. That, in my book, is cause for some celebration. (Of course, it doesn't take much these days to call for a celebration, but what the H, have one anyway)!
:)

Happy New Year to all!

<ot> Going back to the game yesterday, at least we didn't have to listen to Phil Simms rant about how bad the Broncos are through the whole thing. I'd take those guys to color our games any time. They were actually fair and unbiased in their comments.

Such a shame about Darrent Williams. </ot>

Sideline cameras were HD; upper, wide-view cameras were SD. They mentioned on-air that FSN-RM lent them some equipment. And then there was the dead air in the first half!

I guess nobody heard that Fox's truck of HD equipment was stuck in a snow drift somewhere 300 miles from Denver (my guess is in Kansas).

They had to borrow equipment from Fox Rocky Mountain Sports Net to show us what they did. After I heard that, I wasn't upset anymore. In true NFL fashion, they did some big league scrambling to bring us the game at all. If Fox FMSN hadn't come through with some cameras, we would have watched the game on the Mile High cam.

And on a tragic note, my heart goes out to the family and friends of Darrent Williams. My God, what is happening to Denver? :(

And on a tragic note, my heart goes out to the family and friends of Darrent Williams. My God, what is happening to Denver? :(

I'm a little disturbed by the news as well. However, I'm 3x as disturbed that the Fox local is downrezzing the video to add their scroll to the bottom of the screen. What are the odds they do this during the actual game?

And on a tragic note, my heart goes out to the family and friends of Darrent Williams. My God, what is happening to Denver? :(

Adam Schefter reported on the NFL Network that several Broncos were at the Kenyon Martin (of the Denver Nuggets) birthday party on Broadway where they encountered the gang-banger element and were hassled about losing the game. An argument ensued before the Bronco players left to go to Iverson's party. On the way to Iverson's party, the limo was ambushed. Darrent Williams died in the lap of Javon Walker.

If this story is even somewhat true, this horrendous crime should be easily solved. Also, if this story is true, the Nuggets players hosting the party on Broadway need to scrutinize the company they keep. This is exactly why the NBA has had an image problem for many years.

This is just senseless. My two cents worth.

Don

Frankly, I actually do wish the other stations would do this as well, simply because my monitor is one that will not allow stretch or zoom modes to work when fed an HD signal, so when an affiliate is sending 4:3 programming in 720p or 1080i, I'm stuck with sidebars.

You have a 4:3 display, or a 16:9 display. If a 4:3 display, the double-boxing does suck, but if it is a 16:9 display, you are seeing the 4:3 image as it is meant to be seen, i.e., 4:3. I hate stretch. A few of the stations did it here and the complaints got them all to quit the practice.

As for the station switching between SD and HD, you do understand that it is not an instant changeover. The encoder has to change modes, the PSIP info has to change and the receiver has to change what it is doing as well. The station can't do it at the top of the hour, since that will cause programming to be missed. You can't do it before the hour, since it would probably mean cutting into the legal ID, which ain't so legal when it can't be completely seen/heard. Can't do it before the legal ID, as that would probably mean doing it during a commercial. I sure wouldn't pay the station to air a spot of mine and screw it up with the changeover.

That is if the station manages to do it on time. Nevermind the uproar when the station does it late. Talk about recording equipment having a fit.

I'm sorry, but sticking with HD all the time is the best.

I'm a little disturbed by the news as well. However, I'm 3x as disturbed that the Fox local is downrezzing the video to add their scroll to the bottom of the screen. What are the odds they do this during the actual game?

Until the station spends the money to get equipment in which to feed scroll text to the Fox Splicer, they can only scroll stuff on the network SD feed, since the HD video is NOT available for station use. The satellite HD stream is sent directly to the splicer.

I take that back. If the station's house is digital HD, then they might be able to play games with the confidence HD video that Fox provides. It would mean taking the HD baseband video and converting it back to HD-SDI (or is that SDI-HD) for routing through the station. Fox net just might have a heart attack if a station did that :)

The point is that I don't know of any station around the country that is currently set up to do weather/emergency crawls over the HD video. Everyone just switches to the SD video and dumps the HD video into the bit bucket. That will obvisouly have to change by Feb 2009. :D

If a station has spent the money for said equipment, great for them and their viewing public. The crawls suck, but losing the HD when the crawl is needed, is worse.

I hate stretch. A few of the stations did it here and the complaints got them all to quit the practice.I wouldn't want the station to do it; I can watch 4:3 video on my 16:9 set, but if I do it too much I burn in the middle 4:3 area of my screen. With stretch or other modes at least I can stretch it or add grey sidebars myself; otherwise I'm hosed, and many if not most with 16:9 screens are stuck in the same situation.

As for the station switching between SD and HD, you do understand that it is not an instant changeover. The encoder has to change modes, the PSIP info has to change and the receiver has to change what it is doing as well. The station can't do it at the top of the hour, since that will cause programming to be missed. You can't do it before the hour, since it would probably mean cutting into the legal ID, which ain't so legal when it can't be completely seen/heard. Can't do it before the legal ID, as that would probably mean doing it during a commercial. I sure wouldn't pay the station to air a spot of mine and screw it up with the changeover.I'm a tad surprised by this; I see stations switch back and forth all the time, whether due to switcher issues or due to programming. Heck, I've got multiple recordings of my local PBS station that start off in 480i (PBS Create) and then switch to 1080i (PBS HD.) The only side effect seems to be the brief glitch as the resolution changes.

President Ford's funeral is in HD on HDNet.

I wouldn't want the station to do it; I can watch 4:3 video on my 16:9 set, but if I do it too much I burn in the middle 4:3 area of my screen. With stretch or other modes at least I can stretch it or add grey sidebars myself; otherwise I'm hosed, and many if not most with 16:9 screens are stuck in the same situation.

Do you have an older plasma? That would be the only way to get burnin, as DLP and LCD displays don't get burnin. Newer plasma sets aren't supposed to either. How can you stand stretch mode, i.e., short-fat-people?

I'm a tad surprised by this; I see stations switch back and forth all the time, whether due to switcher issues or due to programming. Heck, I've got multiple recordings of my local PBS station that start off in 480i (PBS Create) and then switch to 1080i (PBS HD.) The only side effect seems to be the brief glitch as the resolution changes.

Stations? I thought there was only one station in the Denver metro area that actually changes modes, i.e., the one PBS station. I'm surprised that the changeover is that quick. One thing is for sure, editing programs like VideoReDo would not let you edit material that is 480i with 720p or 1080i material. That would mean if a station was late changing modes and did it after network programming started, you wouldn't be able to keep the 480i material as part of the edit.

I have no idea how fast my Samsung STBs (same model) would be able to switch modes. The OTA card I have for the PeeCee is different in that the stream is captured onto the hard drive. Don't know if the mode change would affect that or not, but VideoReDo would have a fit with it.

IMHO it is best to keep the same mode all during the broadcast day.

Now back to your regularly scheduled snow storms :D

I'm a little disturbed by the news as well. However, I'm 3x as disturbed that the Fox local is downrezzing the video to add their scroll to the bottom of the screen. What are the odds they do this during the actual game?

Down-rezzing is three times more disturbing to you than murder committed, seemingly at random, on a public street?

You just answered my question "My God, what is happening to Denver".

The answer is: a technical decision on a local TV station is more important than the loss of innocent human life.

Now it all makes sense.

Thanks for sharing that with us.

My $.02 on local TV technical decisions.

I pray the local stations realize they are destroying our HD CRT and Plasma televisions by posting black sidebars rather than gray when showing SD broadcasts.

My TV, a bit over a year old, is already showing burn-in.

What in the hell are they thinking!

My $.02 on local TV technical decisions.

I pray the local stations realize they are destroying our HD CRT and Plasma televisions by posting black sidebars rather than gray when showing SD broadcasts.

My TV, a bit over a year old, is already showing burn-in.

What in the hell are they thinking!
Back when KCNC-DT started up, I made a similar complaint here. The engineers at the station started using grey sidebars for locally-inserted SD content. (And even then, some complained that grey was distracting or whatever)

When the national feed (on the HD channel) is SD (like news programs, reality shows, etc) the local station doesn't have much control over it - it's the nationals.

I finally bit the bullet and bought a new LCOS (technically, HDILA) set that won't burn since my CRT was so burned.

Bob, you're still watching that ancient, 'year-old' tv? Dude, its time to update. ;)

Down-rezzing is three times more disturbing to you than murder committed, seemingly at random, on a public street?

While I can't speak for zimbda, I will give my perspective...

While the loss of life over a seemingly random act of violence is indeed horrible, must a program in progress be interupted to announce said murder? It could have waited until a local break, announcing the event and to stay tuned to the newscast for details. Announcing it right away doesn't change the circumstances and won't prevent another murder from happening. But, here is the major point, why should a known person (wasn't known by me since I don't follow sports, so I don't know all the names of players, etc.) get special treatment. What about the average Joe/Jane that gets gunned down. Those murders do not cause interruption of programming and are provided to viewers during normal newscasts. To family members, the loss of that life is just as important as the celebrity.

If a station does it for one, it should do it for all.

Around here, a certain station's weather department will interrupt programming at a drop in a waterdrop and stay on forever. Dangerous weather with national weather service tornado warnings are a must, but staying on forever with the radar image is overkill. The crawl is good enough.

Back when KCNC-DT started up, I made a similar complaint here. The engineers at the station started using grey sidebars for locally-inserted SD content. (And even then, some complained that grey was distracting or whatever)

Same around here. When the Fox affiliate finally went HD, it was suggested that grey bars be used and they did, for a long time. I suspect the complaints got the better of them and they went to black.

Anyone else notice a change in signal/signal strength from KDVR-DT the past couple of days? I suddenly found their signal much harder to lock on my main antenna (pointed just west of RP) and a few points lower in strength when I finally did lock them. When I switched to my LOM oriented antenna, KDVR comes in with a signal strength increased from around 80 to almost 90 now.

If any others here have noticed that something changed, perhaps they reoriented their antenna, modified their antenna, or increased their power level. Just some guesses.

Anyone else notice a change in signal/signal strength from KDVR-DT the past couple of days?
Yup. I posted earlier(Sunday) that my once reliable signal was gone. For now, I'm blaming it on all of the snow. History: In my location I could never lock on KDVR, then 1 day I tried, and it was there nice and strong. I tested for about 2 weeks, and it was always there(from 53 miles). So, I called the station and talked with an engineer. He told me that they 'tweaked the exciters'. Sunday it was gone on one antenna, and very pixelated on the other.

So, as I see it(I really don't :( ), it's either all of the snow, or they changed something.
....jc

Do you have an older plasma? That would be the only way to get burnin, as DLP and LCD displays don't get burnin. Newer plasma sets aren't supposed to either. How can you stand stretch mode, i.e., short-fat-people?I'm not happy with it, and for four or five hours at a time, it's no big deal, and Panasonics have a decent "just" mode where the sides are stretched but the middle is normal.

But given my plasma is usually on around 12 hours per day between my wife and I, I'd have definite burn in by now, even with a newer unit.

Stations? I thought there was only one station in the Denver metro area that actually changes modes, i.e., the one PBS station. I'm surprised that the changeover is that quick. One thing is for sure, editing programs like VideoReDo would not let you edit material that is 480i with 720p or 1080i material.Only one does switch, as KBDI is all 480i multicasting, but KRMA-DT switches from 480i to 1080i each day at 6:00 PM and back at midnight. My TiVo S3 has no problem recording the switchover either way.

Yup. I posted earlier(Sunday) that my once reliable signal was gone. For now, I'm blaming it on all of the snow. History: In my location I could never lock on KDVR, then 1 day I tried, and it was there nice and strong. I tested for about 2 weeks, and it was always there(from 53 miles). So, I called the station and talked with an engineer. He told me that they 'tweaked the exciters'. Sunday it was gone on one antenna, and very pixelated on the other.
No issues in Louisville; perhaps there's a large snow drift to the south. :D

I'm not happy with it, and for four or five hours at a time, it's no big deal, and Panasonics have a decent "just" mode where the sides are stretched but the middle is normal.

How can you stand the change in perspective when the image is panned from left or right? The non-stretch to stretch change would drive me nuts.

If your set is only a year old and it has burnin, that means I will definately stay away from Plasma sets.

Something had changed, at least it was different on Sunday! I had my antenna pointed so that I could get all of the RP stations well. KDVR 31-1 came in just fine off of the side of the antenna. Sunday for the game (yeah I am aware of all of the transmission difficulties they had) it kept losing lock. I had to swing the antenna over towards Lookout to keep lock. As somebody mentioned, the signal strength seemed as high or higher (even off the side of the antenna) as it normally is, so I am not sure what the deal is?? I wonder if it is really all related to the obvious difficulties they were having with the broadcast. I have not checked KDVR out since, so I am not sure what the situation is now.

Phil P.

Anyone else notice a change in signal/signal strength from KDVR-DT the past couple of days? I suddenly found their signal much harder to lock on my main antenna (pointed just west of RP) and a few points lower in strength when I finally did lock them. When I switched to my LOM oriented antenna, KDVR comes in with a signal strength increased from around 80 to almost 90 now.

If any others here have noticed that something changed, perhaps they reoriented their antenna, modified their antenna, or increased their power level. Just some guesses.

Yep, I'm in Louisville and having trouble with 31 also, as well as with channel 2. I have to point the antenna SW towards the mountains more (which causes trouble with some of the other stations). Before, I could get all 10 of my stations to came in just fine with the antenna pointing S towards RP. It seems the problems started right around the first snow storm.

Stretching physics a bit here?

Perhaps the snow cover has altered the reflectivity of the terrain and there is multipath coming into play.

--- CHAS

How can you stand the change in perspective when the image is panned from left or right? The non-stretch to stretch change would drive me nuts.

If your set is only a year old and it has burnin, that means I will definately stay away from Plasma sets.


Newer plasmas are much better about it though. I've been told you can leave a static image on one for up to 48 hours without worry. The image will indeed burn in, but only temporarily. You just have to display some moving images where the static one was for a few hours to "clean the screen".

Stretching physics a bit here?
Not really. The terrain between me and the antennas is primarily covered with genus Pinus(Pine Trees). Snow can accumulate on the branches, and form a sort of wall, that isn't there in the summer.

Of course, I still wouldn't rule out a change or problem with KDVR. :p
....jc

Newer plasmas are much better about it though. I've been told you can leave a static image on one for up to 48 hours without worry. The image will indeed burn in, but only temporarily. You just have to display some moving images where the static one was for a few hours to "clean the screen".

Thanks for the update.

I really want to see what SED is supposed to look like. But with the delays, It sounds like 2008 before something can be seen.

Anyone else notice a change in signal/signal strength from KDVR-DT the past couple of days? .................
Not counting the issues early in the Bronco game on Sunday, FWIW I am still reading at 100% signal level even with my antenna pointed at the RB. I have never had a problem here with KDVR, and certainly have not seen anything the last few days while watching the BCS games. I do have line of sight to Lookout from my back porch although my antenna is not pointed that way. YMMV.

Just prior to my earlier post this afternoon, I checked again. My 'Lookout' antenna pulled in a signal strength of around 15-17%. I need at least 33% for a lock. So, whatever was going on Sunday, is still going on.

Maybe I should ask some of the people up North to shovel their roofs? :confused:
....jc

This is strange, I am getting my normal 'excellent' signal of over 90 with the antenna pointed at RP

Yep, I'm in Louisville and having trouble with 31 also, as well as with channel 2. I have to point the antenna SW towards the mountains more (which causes trouble with some of the other stations). Before, I could get all 10 of my stations to came in just fine with the antenna pointing S towards RP. It seems the problems started right around the first snow storm.I'm in Louisville but I have had no problems with KWGN-DT or KDVR-DT, before or after the snow storm, with a UHF Yagi pointed at RP.

Perhaps the snow affected your antenna somehow?

How can you stand the change in perspective when the image is panned from left or right? The non-stretch to stretch change would drive me nuts.

If your set is only a year old and it has burnin, that means I will definately stay away from Plasma sets.The change in perspective is a little disturbing, but you get used to it.

Actually, I often have a problem thinking people look too thin when watching a 4:3 set now. :D

Frankly I was just as vehemently anti-stretch before I bought my plasma, but found it doesn't really bother me that much and I don't risk burn-in to watch content (given a good 95% of what I watch daily is still 4:3.)

Also, my plasma isn't one year old, it's a bit over two now, and I don't have burn-in, I'm trying to avoid it to the degree possible.

Just prior to my earlier post this afternoon, I checked again. My 'Lookout' antenna pulled in a signal strength of around 15-17%. I need at least 33% for a lock. So, whatever was going on Sunday, is still going on.That's right, it's on Lookout.

Perhaps the SCARE folks have erected a big foil barrier to reflect the signal north and east. :D

Stretching physics a bit here?

Perhaps the snow cover has altered the reflectivity of the terrain and there is multipath coming into play.

--- CHAS

Actually, I also have considered that as a possibility as my KWGN signal is also acting a bit different than usual for the past few days. With my location and attic antennas, I know that my pick up of KDVR and KWGN on my Republic Plaza pointed antenna is dependent on catching a reflected signal just right. Perhaps the extra reflectivity has changed the sweet spot for my reflected signal pick up and reduced the multi-path that previously limited the signal strength for my LOM directed antenna.

Sweet KUSA got rid of Cheers, they are now going straight to Conan. So happy that they made the change.

The change in perspective is a little disturbing, but you get used to it.

I could never used to that. I'm real fussy when it comes to the correct aspect ratio at all times. To each their own.

Actually, I often have a problem thinking people look too thin when watching a 4:3 set now. :D

ROTFL :)

Frankly I was just as vehemently anti-stretch before I bought my plasma, but found it doesn't really bother me that much and I don't risk burn-in to watch content (given a good 95% of what I watch daily is still 4:3.)

A majority of what I would watch on a 16:9 display would be HD. It would be enough of a mix to not cause a problem with a plasma set. Then again, by the time I do get a large display, the sets will be even better than they are today.

I still want to see what SED is going to look like.

Sweet KUSA got rid of Cheers, they are now going straight to Conan. So happy that they made the change.On the other hand, NBC apparently dumped the overnight Conan rerun in favor of the lame (and SD) "Poker After Dark."

Does anyone actually watch these stupid poker shows on TV?

How can you stand stretch mode, i.e., short-fat-people?
...because it helps my self-esteem? ;)

:rolleyes:

You have a 4:3 display, or a 16:9 display. If a 4:3 display, the double-boxing does suck, but if it is a 16:9 display, you are seeing the 4:3 image as it is meant to be seen, i.e., 4:3. I hate stretch. A few of the stations did it here and the complaints got them all to quit the practice.

As for the station switching between SD and HD, you do understand that it is not an instant changeover. The encoder has to change modes, the PSIP info has to change and the receiver has to change what it is doing as well. The station can't do it at the top of the hour, since that will cause programming to be missed. You can't do it before the hour, since it would probably mean cutting into the legal ID, which ain't so legal when it can't be completely seen/heard. Can't do it before the legal ID, as that would probably mean doing it during a commercial. I sure wouldn't pay the station to air a spot of mine and screw it up with the changeover.

That is if the station manages to do it on time. Nevermind the uproar when the station does it late. Talk about recording equipment having a fit.

I'm sorry, but sticking with HD all the time is the best.

If KRMA wants to use three different programming streams, they should do so with individual channels. The technology now exists. Use it. Otherwise, let channel 6 be for traditional PBS offerings and the HD channel be strictly for HD programming. My problem with the HD programming is its repetitive nature. I'd love to see Mystery! and Masterpiece Theater, their two highest rated programs, offered on the HD channel. By watching them on channel 6, I can see they're on film and formatted for wide screen, which means they use a video transfer to SD. How hard or costly would it be to also transfer it to HD video?

I wonder if the clearer image on HDTV will result in fewer changes in eyeglass prescriptions over time? I just hope it doesn't result in a new eye disease: black side bar syndrome.

;)

Perhaps the snow affected your antenna somehow?
Don't think so.

My 'RP' antenna is about 5' higher, and has about the same reception quality(from KDVR) as it always did. Spotty.

My 'Lookout' antenna is pointed about 20° further West, but as mentioned is 5' lower. It still receives KGWN, KBDI and KTVD at about the same signal strengths.

So, it's something else :confused:.
....jc

What's up with the lack of guides on KRMA & KTVD? They've had them before. :confused:

What's up with the lack of guides on KRMA & KTVD? They've had them before. :confused:Last time I checked (before the holidays) KRMA did have their guide populated during day when they were broadcasting SD, but in the evenings when they pass the PBS-HD feed then the guide would only say "PBS HD program".

The guide for KDVR has been missing for a couple months at least.

Last time I checked (before the holidays) KRMA did have their guide populated during day when they were broadcasting SD, but in the evenings when they pass the PBS-HD feed then the guide would only say "PBS HD program".

The guide for KDVR has been missing for a couple months at least.

KDVR appears to be trying to fix their program guide. The guide data stopped early in the morning on 12/6, but just this afternoon, they started sending the guide data again. Unfortunately, their guide data is still from 12/6, but at least they got it to be broadcast. Now they just need to get updated info.

As for KRMA, they are still sending guide data out, but when they switch to the HD network, that does usually change to the generic "PBS HD" program name.

Hi everyone. First post here. Just became aware of forum while searching for a solution to a reception problem. I've read all the posts from the past week and don't see anyone else mentioning it so I am pessimistic. :(

I am currently unable to receive any signal on KCNC 4.1. I get SD 4 fine. My home is in Aurora.

I am using an DTV HR10-250 for sat and a Channel Master 4228 for OTA, connected to the HR10 OTA inputs. The HR10 is connected via HDMI to a Sony Wega 50"CD with a built-in ATSC tuner. I am using the DVR to tune OTA.

Until a week ago, I have had nothing to complain about with my OTA reception. It has been there, though not always of the highest quality (see recent Bronco game).

About a week ago, I lost my 4.1 signal. The signal meter in the HR10 shows anywhere from 0-~25, with an occasional, momentary spike to 80 or there about. Up until this problem 4.1 was always a good signal. I connected the 4228 cable directly to the RF input on the Sony and scanned for all the digital signals. It found all the signals I can receive normally but didn't find 4.1. That eliminates the HR10 as the problem.

Any thoughts as to what the problem might be? I checked the antenna positioning and it is still pointed to 270 degrees, as it has been since I installed it last fall. From my location, 4.1 is at a bearing of 285, as well as 6.1, 7.1, and 9.1. The other three have excellent signal strength and a great picture. 2.1, 20.1, and 31.1 are all at a bearing of 268 so splitting the difference has worked fine till now.

I called KCNC just to see if there was something going on with their equipment or were they doing maintenance or something. Nope,they say everything is fine from their end.

Any thoughts?

Any thoughts as to what the problem might be? I checked the antenna positioning and it is still pointed to 270 degrees, as it has been since I installed it last fall. From my location, 4.1 is at a bearing of 285, as well as 6.1, 7.1, and 9.1. The other three have excellent signal strength and a great picture. 2.1, 20.1, and 31.1 are all at a bearing of 268 so splitting the difference has worked fine till now.
Minor correction - 20.1 is in the same location as 4.1, 6.1, 7.1, and 9.1.

Since 2.1 and 31.1 have significantly more power than the other stations, I'd optimize for the weakest station on RP (which would be 4.1, due to it's high UHF channel 35). You shouldn't lose 2.1 or 31.1.

So maybe try aiming the antenna at 285 degrees and see what happens...shouldn't be any problem with our balmy weather now, eh? :)

OTA KCNC on Samsung SIR-T451 is oK for me.
KBDI has been absent for several months on the Samsung SIR-T451 although I receive
KBDI on a MyHD MDP-130 card in a pc.

Hi everyone. First post here. Just became aware of forum while searching for a solution to a reception problem. I've read all the posts from the past week and don't see anyone else mentioning it so I am pessimistic. :(

I am currently unable to receive any signal on KCNC 4.1. I get SD 4 fine. My home is in Aurora.

I am using an DTV HR10-250 for sat and a Channel Master 4228 for OTA, connected to the HR10 OTA inputs. The HR10 is connected via HDMI to a Sony Wega 50"CD with a built-in ATSC tuner. I am using the DVR to tune OTA.

Until a week ago, I have had nothing to complain about with my OTA reception. It has been there, though not always of the highest quality (see recent Bronco game).

About a week ago, I lost my 4.1 signal. The signal meter in the HR10 shows anywhere from 0-~25, with an occasional, momentary spike to 80 or there about. Up until this problem 4.1 was always a good signal. I connected the 4228 cable directly to the RF input on the Sony and scanned for all the digital signals. It found all the signals I can receive normally but didn't find 4.1. That eliminates the HR10 as the problem.

Any thoughts as to what the problem might be? I checked the antenna positioning and it is still pointed to 270 degrees, as it has been since I installed it last fall. From my location, 4.1 is at a bearing of 285, as well as 6.1, 7.1, and 9.1. The other three have excellent signal strength and a great picture. 2.1, 20.1, and 31.1 are all at a bearing of 268 so splitting the difference has worked fine till now.

I called KCNC just to see if there was something going on with their equipment or were they doing maintenance or something. Nope,they say everything is fine from their end.

Any thoughts?

Is your antenna on the roof or in the attic? If in the attic, do you have a pre-amp installed? Do you have LOS from your antenna's location to Republic Plaza?

Minor correction - 20.1 is in the same location as 4.1, 6.1, 7.1, and 9.1.

Since 2.1 and 31.1 have significantly more power than the other stations, I'd optimize for the weakest station on RP (which would be 4.1, due to it's high UHF channel 35). You shouldn't lose 2.1 or 31.1.

So maybe try aiming the antenna at 285 degrees and see what happens...shouldn't be any problem with our balmy weather now, eh? :)

I printed out the details from Antennaweb<dot>org so I'll send them an email concerning the correction. My info shows 20.1 at 268 and 21.3 miles and 4.1 at 285 and 8.9 miles.

Given the distance from here to the 4.1 antenna, I'm surprised that the slight difference in azimuth matters but worth checking.

"Balmy weather" Yeah, I think I'll wait a few days!

Thanks.

OTA KCNC on Samsung SIR-T451 is oK for me.
KBDI has been absent for several months on the Samsung SIR-T451 although I receive
KBDI on a MyHD MDP-130 card in a pc.

Where are you located, relative to downtown Denver? It might be useful for my troubleshooting.

Is your antenna on the roof or in the attic? If in the attic, do you have a pre-amp installed? Do you have LOS from your antenna's location to Republic Plaza?

On the roof, mounted on a 4' mast, no preamp. I have a clear LOS to Lookout Mountain in the general direction of 4.1's antenna, per antennaweb.

The weird thing is that it worked perfectly a week ago. The only thing that I can identify that is different is the weather and it seems to me that it should have affected the other signals from that direction as well.

Still thinking things over.

Thanks for the reply.

On the roof, mounted on a 4' mast, no preamp. I have a clear LOS to Lookout Mountain in the general direction of 4.1's antenna, per antennaweb.

LOS to Lookout only counts for 31-1, 2-1 and 2-2.
4-*, 7-*, 9-*, and 20-*are all downtown Denver on top of Republic Plaza.

If you have LOS to RP, point your antenna there.

# Matt

it seems to me that it should have affected the other signals from that direction as well.As dr_mal pointed out earlier, 4.1 is on channel frequency 35, which doesn't carry as well as the frequencies used by the other RP stations (16, 17, 18, 19) . So in a marginal situation it's logical for you to start having problems with 4.1 before the others.

With high power broadcasting from Lookout Mountain, these fringe reception problems would still be an issue - but for people in Greeley and Limon, not Aurora and Boulder.

I printed out the details from Antennaweb<dot>org so I'll send them an email concerning the correction. My info shows 20.1 at 268 and 21.3 miles and 4.1 at 285 and 8.9 miles.

Given the distance from here to the 4.1 antenna, I'm surprised that the slight difference in azimuth matters but worth checking.

"Balmy weather" Yeah, I think I'll wait a few days!

Thanks.
I am located a little east of chambers and mississippi and cannot see the mountains but I recieve 2.4.6.7.9.20 & 31 fine.

I am located a little east of chambers and mississippi and cannot see the mountains but I recieve 2.4.6.7.9.20 & 31 fine.

I am a bit south of Mississippi and Uvalda.

Okay, so it sounds like the general opinion is that I need to adjust my antenna a bit more NW, in the direction of downtown. I'll do that as soon as the snow melts off the roof.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate it.

Still wondering what changed, though.

Did you check the connections to see if melted snow/ice got into them? Just a thought...

On the roof, mounted on a 4' mast, no preamp. I have a clear LOS to Lookout Mountain in the general direction of 4.1's antenna, per antennaweb.

The weird thing is that it worked perfectly a week ago. The only thing that I can identify that is different is the weather and it seems to me that it should have affected the other signals from that direction as well.

Still thinking things over.

Thanks for the reply.

The issue is LOS to the Republic Plaza building downtown from which the Channel 4 DTV signal is broadcast.

Your antenna setup sounds fine. I'd endorse the slight re-aiming toward Republic Plaza. I also endorse a connection check. Moisture leakage in coax connectors can degrade signal strength.

On the roof, mounted on a 4' mast, no preamp. I have a clear LOS to Lookout Mountain in the general direction of 4.1's antenna, per antennaweb.

The weird thing is that it worked perfectly a week ago. The only thing that I can identify that is different is the weather and it seems to me that it should have affected the other signals from that direction as well.

Still thinking things over.

Thanks for the reply.

I am having the same problem with 4.1 right now. No signal. On the HR10, I get a signal strength of 15 right now for 4.1 compared to 95 on 9.1. It usually has to do with the weather; when the weather is nice, my signal strength for 4.1 is usually 75, not great, but good enough.

The 4.1 frequency of 35 is compounded by the directional nodes of which I believe I am in a null spot as far as direction goes.

Is the SuperBowl on CBS this year? I hope the weather is better by Feb. 4.

Don

I'd endorse the slight re-aiming toward Republic Plaza. I also endorse a connection check. Moisture leakage in coax connectors can degrade signal strength.


This happened to my rec. a few weeks ago.

I would agree with the suggestion to point the antenna directly on a bearing to RP.

From approximately Quincy and Chambers with a CM4228, I can confirm the weakest RP signal is 4.1.

I aimed my antenna directly at RP and have no problem even off azimuth to receive 31.1 and 2.1 with plenty of signal strength.

New Anti-Tower letter in this morning's Rocky Mountain News. It sounds just a 'tad' on the bitter side.

Anti Tower Editorial (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/letters/article/0,2777,DRMN_23966_5260034,00.html)

New Anti-Tower letter in this morning's Rocky Mountain News.Anti Tower Editorial (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/letters/article/0,2777,DRMN_23966_5260034,00.html)That guy's been drinking the sCARE Kool-aid. They really think this will be over-turned. Dream on buddy!

That guy's been drinking the sCARE Kool-aid. They really think this will be over-turned. Dream on buddy!

Amen! I don't think there is a chance that a lower court judge would take this one on. FCC regulations already over-ride local regulation in thousands of instances.

I think he should be concerned with the lack of character displayed by Golden officials, JeffCo Commissioners, and SCARE. All of these individuals have acted in their own selfish interests. The Senators just put a stop to that nonsense. At least they acted with enough intelligence to realize that the issue was decided favorably (after 100's of hours of testimony) towards LCG until a few self centered individuals played the system for all it's worth in an attempt to make a few sleazy dollars.

On the other hand, NBC apparently dumped the overnight Conan rerun in favor of the lame (and SD) "Poker After Dark."

Does anyone actually watch these stupid poker shows on TV?


Ugh, so this crap is going to be permanent? Who the hell wants to watch a bunch of guys play poker at 3AM?

Geof,

Nice post, you should write the RMN/Post and have them print your letter. Especially since it resonds to a previous letter.

Sorry sCare, it's not that simple. Every Constitutional Amendment has spawned volumes of legal books that attempt to explain what it means. Over time, the interpretation process has become so be convoluted that even constitutional scholars cannot agree.

I'm sure the Founding Fathers never would have guessed Congress would authorize a FCC to handle the legislative details of telecommunications policy. So, the power of the Government is continuously defined (or redefined) as novel situations arise.

So does the Congress have Constitutional authority on Lookout Mountain? Probably it does because the principal issues are concerned with a thing that is in the immediate control of Congress thus diluting the power of the State .. somewhat akin to eminent domain.

That's my opinion. The proof will be in the details. (Hi Hi)

Anyway, it's going to be fun to observe from afar.

--- CHAS

I do not believe the Supreme Court of the United States has ever overturned congressional legislation solely on the basis of the 10th amendment.

The Constitutional reality is that Congress has the explicit authority to regulate interstate commerce, and television broadcasts have been regulated based on that authority, and that regulation has been tested in the courts.

I do not believe the Supreme Court of the United States has ever overturned congressional legislation solely on the basis of the 10th amendment.

The Constitutional reality is that Congress has the explicit authority to regulate interstate commerce, and television broadcasts have been regulated based on that authority, and that regulation has been tested in the courts.Let's not forget there are vital public health and safety issues involved as well. If it were just a matter of being competitive in the television marketplace (no digital) one could make an argument on interstate commerce alone, but given NTSC goes away in 2009, the public safety issue becomes much more important (and is, at least if you read their press releases, the major reason the Senators became involved.)

That guy's been drinking the sCARE Kool-aid. They really think this will be over-turned. Dream on buddy!

The 10th Amendment/FCC mandate thing has already been litigated. The FCC has jurisdiction through the commerce clause.

Mr. Medina sounds like one of the radical anti-government folks who likes to throw around a fundamentalist interpretation of the Constitution, one not even the people who wrote it had. I'm surprised the News even printed it.

Medina doesn’t see the bigger picture, and I don't mean a 57" wide screen.

Look at the events here since just before Christmas, from blizzards, to murders, to Saturday's avalanche. Local TV coverage of the blizzards were a great help region-wide and probably saved lives.

In the event of emergency, over-the-air television (OTA) now provides the Front Range with a key, direct, VISUAL way to communicate safety information. When all of those mini-satellite dishes are crusted with ice or cable has a failure, my little indoor UHF antenna still works fine.

If the digital TV transmitters remain on Republic Plaza, half the region loses its OTA back-up and protection. They must then rely on radio stations, many of whom no longer have local news or on-air talent, for live-saving information. If the digital TV transmitters are re-located to Lookout Mountain, everybody keeps that OTA protection.

That's the bigger issue: providing for the common defense and promoting general welfare. It’s about public safety.

This happened to my rec. a few weeks ago.

Which part? The antenna azimuth or the moisture?

Which part? The antenna azimuth or the moisture?


The moisture.

I have a splice in the coax that sits on the roof itself. After all the freezing & thawing the connection was a tad loose. The splice is weather proof but that didn't stop it.

Did anyone else notice how crappy the games yesterday on NBC were? I had nasty pixelization at times. The backgrounds when they were following the action were grainy as hell. The yard markers were flickering. It did not seem to be dependant on the camera, and was not very different when watching on D* with LiL or OTA. Todays games were both (CBS and FOX) much better.

Phil P.

Phil,

I did notice that too. I was talking with my dad who was watching the game on a little SD set. I made a crack about watching the game in HD, but that I was watching it through a screen door.

I have found discussions about this in several places. Lots of people have commented about it, not only on Saturday but in regard to sveral different games on Sunday night football. I have not noticed it so much because I generally watch Sunday night on an old 38" CRT. Saturday I was using the 42" 1080P LCD and the defects were plainly visible. I thought it might be something wrong with my setup. However the Sunday games both looked real good by comparison.

I saw speculation that there might be something wrong with the NBC distribution network for HD NFL games. Others blamed the use of sub channels on many NBC affiliates. I am not sure what it is, but the PQ sucked bad for both of the games Saturday.

Phil P.

I saw speculation that there might be something wrong with the NBC distribution network for HD NFL games. Others blamed the use of sub channels on many NBC affiliates. I am not sure what it is, but the PQ sucked bad for both of the games Saturday.

I don't follow sports, so I haven't dug into this. I do not know how they are getting the games from the stadiums to New York. It is my understanding that pretty much all of the stadiums are wired for fiber leaving to allow for the event to be shipped basically anywhere in the country. The bitrate via fiber is a lot higher than using 4:2:2 MPEG-2 QPSK or 8PSK C/Ku-band. Even if satellite was used as the primary route back to NY, it is still higher than what the affiliate airs.

The distribution from NY to the affiliates is via 8PSK 4:2:0 MPEG-2 Ku, with two HD streams in the DVB-S mux. Unfortunately my contact did not know the settings of the mux, so I do not know the total data rate of the mux. I seriously doubt that it is the max 73 Mbps like Fox is running. They went through a lot of hoops to get that datarate working. It is probably near 54 Mbps. That would mean 27 Mbps for each stream, if evenly split. The video will be around 24 Mbps. While not as high as CBS/ABC (which each use a single QPSK transponder for their HD feeds, running about 40-45 Mbps total payload), still higher than what Fox sends to each affiliate (less than 15 Mbps per HD video stream).

So, in theory, what NBC sends to the affiliates should not have any macroblocking problems.

I haven't seen anyone bitching in my local area forum regarding the games. My local NBC affiliate is also running an SD stream, which Tom (the engineer) tends to throttle back during games in order to provide more bits to the HD stream.

Did anyone capture the OTA stream on their computer and run it through TSReader to see what the bitrate was?

Well, I don't know if my observations are related to the past few posts, but I'm in Hawaii right now (no, I'm not gloating, merely stating a fact) and we were watching the NBC game in the pool bar yesterday and everyone was bitching about the transmission. So unless both Denver and Maui had unrelated problems, I suspect NBC was the problem.

So, in theory, what NBC sends to the affiliates should not have any macroblocking problems.



So where in the transmission / reception process are macroblocks introduced.

It's my understanding that raw digital video data arrives from the camera in excess of a gigabit/sec. This is compressed by an MPEG2 encoder to lower the data rate. MPEG is not a lossless process. So, wouldn't macroblocks be introduced as a artifact from compression to 27 Mbps before the stream is sent to the affiliates?

Ultimately, everything that is transmitted in the channel must be presented to the 8VSB modulator at 19.39 megabits/sec (DTV Transport Layer). So what happens if the data rate is less than that as in your Fox example?

(We need an engineering oriented forum to discuss these kinds of matters, I have lots of questions and misunderstandings)

--- CHAS

So where in the transmission / reception process are macroblocks introduced.

I can think of two scenarios:

1. the encoder runs out of bandwidth to fully represent all the detail in a macroblock and instead encodes a lousy representation of the macroblock.

2. an uncorrectable error occurs during transmission of a macroblock and the decoder guesses as to what the macroblock should look like using its error concealment algorithm.

Ultimately, everything that is transmitted in the channel must be presented to the 8VSB modulator at 19.39 megabits/sec (DTV Transport Layer). So what happens if the data rate is less than that as in your Fox example?

The multiplexer inserts a null packet until a new packet is available from the encoder or other bitstreams.

And if the data rate from the encoder is higher than 19.39 megabits/sec, the multiplexer drops packets until the bit rate drops below the 19.39 mb/sec rate. Some multiplexers do a better job than others selecting which packets to drop.

-Glen

Some of your Macro-blocking errors might be due to your display/receivers. I have both a 37" LCD and a high-end 82" DLP Marantz projector. I notice quite a bit more fast-paced macro-blocking visual errors on my smaller LCD than I do on the more expensive projector. Many of us are using LCD's and Plasmas that are not native resolution to the sources. I am thinking some of this could be due to the conversion/scaling going on inside the display and may not be source.

Also, if your OTA receivers output is set to one resolution 720p and the source is another, NBC's 1080i and your display is 1280x768 you've got excess scaling going on. Then, you watch Fox's native 720p source and your OTA receiver is set to 720p and your display is 1280x768, you won't be having excess scaling and the PQ should be far superior with less errors.

Ernie,

You may have a point, I have my H20 set to only output 1080i. The LCD is native 1080P. It typically scales other inputs pretty well, including an upconverting DVD player set to output 1080i. So in my case the problem would be with the scaling done in the H20, if this is the issue. I have the 38" connected to another H20 configured the same way. This set is native 1080i. I don't notice the problems as much on this display. I have just written that off to the fact that the old 38" just does not have enough resolution to show the defects as clearly (nothing is as sharp or clear on this display).

The question I have for the purposes of this discussion is this, if the problem is local to my setup, why am I not seeing the same problems with FOX (720P) and CBS (1080i) or ESPN-HD (1080i) that I see with the NBC games?

I tend to agree that the local configuration issues that you mention can have an adverse affect on PQ. But, I saw way too many negative comments on the NBC games from people on AVS as well as several other forums, to write the whole problem off to this.

Phil P.

If you aren't seeing issues with CBS and only NBC, then it does sound like it's the source and not your system. I just chat with 'regular' folk and they have no clue about resolutions and settings on their displays. They just get 'em home and turn 'em on.

I watched the Ohio/Florida game last night and it looks stunning at native 720p all the way to my 720p display. Event my wife noticed how good it looked.

Ernie, What are the LCG folks thinking these days?

I haven't heard anything new. I will drop them an email and see whaaaas-up.

Also, not a peep on either the City and County News, sCARE or their sister site - HDTVHonestly. I think the Congress and President's approval really blew them away.

I haven't heard anything new. I will drop them an email and see whaaaas-up.

Also, not a peep on either the City and County News, sCARE or their sister site - HDTVHonestly. I think the Congress and President's approval really blew them away.

I would hope a motion is filed soon to lift the injunction, ref. U.S. law S.4092. What is the definition of soon? Then we would have to see what Judge Jackson's schedule is. Could the injunction be lifted by summer (with all due haste)? I doubt it.

Now that Auburn is gone, it would have been interesting to have the annual BCC vote.

Don

I don't think Judge Jackson and his injunction have anything to do with this anymore. Wasn't the injuction effectively made moot by S.4092?

I don't think Judge Jackson and his injunction have anything to do with this anymore. Wasn't the injuction effectively made moot by S.4092?IANAL, but I don't think that S.4092 automatically lifts the injunction. What is does is provide LCG with a solid basis to ask a federal court to void Judge Jackson's injunction, but until that happens the injunction is still in force.

My guess is that LCG is negotiating with the Jeffco commissioners right now to see if they can get a quick affirmative vote on the rehearing; there had been talk that might happen in January anyway, right? Perhaps LCG is offering the commisioners some small concessions (paint the tower green to blend in?) to save face. If that works, they take the approval back to Judge Jackson with S.4092 as a side argument. If not, then they take direct action to get the injunction lifted or voided.

"Perhaps LCG is offering the commisioners some small concessions (paint the tower green to blend in?) to save face."

That would make the FAA really happy.....not! ;)

Just to spite the NIMBY's, I hope the replacement consolidation tower has those super bright, White Strobe lights and not the softer, red lights that softly fade on/off!

Just to spite the NIMBY's, I hope the replacement consolidation tower has those super bright, White Strobe lights and not the softer, red lights that softly fade on/off!
A nightly fireworks display launched from the top of the new tower would be nice too!
:D

Just to spite the NIMBY's, I hope the replacement consolidation tower has those super bright, White Strobe lights and not the softer, red lights that softly fade on/off!

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Towers constructed from that pre-rusted steel aren't required to be painted if they are equipped with strobe lights. I would specify one of these to save maintenance costs.

--- CHAS

"Perhaps LCG is offering the commisioners some small concessions (paint the tower green to blend in?) to save face."

That would make the FAA really happy.....not! ;)
I vote NO! :rolleyes:

I back Homer Simpson's screeching alarm that sounds (screeches) continuously while "everything is alright".

IANAL, but I don't think that S.4092 automatically lifts the injunction. What is does is provide LCG with a solid basis to ask a federal court to void Judge Jackson's injunction, but until that happens the injunction is still in force
The articles in the newspapers have intimated that LCG has yet to get their construction permit from the FCC, plus they'll need to submit new plans to JeffCo for construction permit review (ugh.) IANAL either, but I assume all the new law does is the equivalent of what would have occurred had the county commissioners voted on the merits as Judge Jackson had said they should.

I would really be surprised to see a ground breaking any time before 2008.

Let's not forget I'm sure SCARE is madly Federal Judge shopping to try and find one that will issue an injunction against the new law. (I'm sure there's got to be one somewhere...)

... find one that will issue an injunction against the new law. (I'm sure there's got to be one somewhere...)Actually, I doubt it. Maybe some judge would be motivated to get creative if this had something to do with guns, Iraq, abortion, gay rights, or some other hot-button issue. But zoning in Jefferson County, CO? - nobody's gonna try and make Dred Scott out of that one.

I don't think I've seen this info posted, if so, I apologize.

I just checked the FCC database. KRMA has a "minor modification to its construction permit" to move to Mt. Morrision on an existing tower with an ERP of 115 kW on channel 18, replacing its proposed permanent transmitter on RP. The coverage map looks like it includes Ft. Collins.

The articles in the newspapers have intimated that LCG has yet to get their construction permit from the FCC
According to the FCC (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/files/dtvstat11.html), channels 4, 7, and 9 have their FCC construction permit.

nobody's gonna try and make Dred Scott out of that one.
Nice! :D

I don't think I've seen this info posted, if so, I apologize.

I just checked the FCC database. KRMA has a "minor modification to its construction permit" to move to Mt. Morrision on an existing tower with an ERP of 115 kW on channel 18, replacing its proposed permanent transmitter on RP. The coverage map looks like it includes Ft. Collins.

That's very good news. The ERP seems a little low but probably adequate. I assume this also means they won't switch back to Ch. 6 for DTV.

Mark

According to the FCC (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/files/dtvstat11.html), channels 4, 7, and 9 have their FCC construction permit.
And under S.4092, any one of them having a valid CP should be enough to build the tower.

Just to spite the NIMBY's, I hope the replacement consolidation tower has those super bright, White Strobe lights and not the softer, red lights that softly fade on/off!

I hope that LCG spites those morons with an 843-foot (to the micron) tower....

At the highest point on any of the stations properties!!

I would happy if LCG would just move on with their previously approved plans and built the consolidated digital broadcasting facilities post haste, and leave the bad behavior to the other side.

I bet Deb would just love to have one like this! (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/11/Sutro.jpg/250px-Sutro.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutro_Tower&h=375&w=250&sz=15&hl=en&start=8&tbnid=4CX-6kCyYgA_fM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSutro%2BTower%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlan g_en%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-46,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN) :D

I bet Deb would just love to have one like this! (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/11/Sutro.jpg/250px-Sutro.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutro_Tower&h=375&w=250&sz=15&hl=en&start=8&tbnid=4CX-6kCyYgA_fM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSutro%2BTower%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlan g_en%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-46,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN) :D

I'm sure she would, there are no guy wires! :rolleyes:

She might be holding out for this one:

http://hawkins.pair.com/star_tower.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Tower

Does ANYONE have a contact in any of the stations that will tell them when they will start/finish the work on Lookout Mountain?

Does ANYONE have a contact in any of the stations that will tell them when they will start/finish the work on Lookout Mountain?Ernie does, but I'm sure he would have told us if they were saying anything yet. In the absence of information we have been running an informal pool on the end date.