Should be adorned with this:

And, you got it, facing Downtown Golden. And, at night, the red luminescent 'decoration', flashes it's glory in the cool mountain air.
....jc

C'mon people, take the high road. Nothing worse than a bad winner.

I suggest making a peace offering of a small gift, a calender like this (http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/books/3272.html)perhaps!

I've heard from LCG. But they don't want me to publish anything yet. I will as soon as they give me the OK. Don't worry, I'll get some public info soon.

-------------

New story in the Golden Transcript. It sounds like the commissioners have admitted defeat and believe LCG can do whatever they want.

http://goldentranscript.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2007-01-11&-token.story=183877.112112&-token.subpub=

C'mon people, take the high road. Nothing worse than a bad winner.
:rolleyes:
Winner? And how long have most other cities had Digital broadcasts? Uh, huh.
And when we we see the 1st High Power Digital Broadcast? Uh, huh.

Winner?

Here is another article (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.654.html) with some more recent info

Actually, I hope they are able to use this to get some concessions from JeffCo. Something like...

LCG will follow the proposed plan and donate money for additional green space in JeffCo in return for changing of the zoning designation of their property on Lookout to prevent problems like this in the future.

Here is another article (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.654.html) with some more recent info
I was interested in this quote from Deb Carney found in the article:
With Jefferson county still opposing the tower, with Golden trying to condemn the land, with scientific evidence of the radiation health risks, with engineering evidence that metro Denver could receive as good or better signals from higher antennas located on Eldorado Mountain to the north, "they chose to act late at night in the last days and minutes of a lame duck Congress," Carney said. "That's just not right."

Now she is claiming that Eldorado Mountain (not Squaw) would be a better location. Yet after it was pointed out to Al Hislop and the (S)CARE folks in this forum that a tower located on Eldorado would actually have HIGHER power flux density levels on nearby residents than the proposed tower on Lookout, even (S)CARE chose not to support the Eldorado tower location. (Go back about 5 years in this forum and you can see the exchange of comments between Al and myself). Talk about BS. Now Deb is willing to point to a project even (S)CARE had to oppose due to safety concerns of the local residents, as a viable alternative. It just seems to point out once again that to the (S)CARE folks, this really isn't a safety issue, it is strictly a property value issue. Either that or apparently we are to assume the safety of people who live near Eldorado Mt. and/or Squaw Mountain is not as important as the people who live near Lookout.

I bet Deb would just love to have one like this! (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/11/Sutro.jpg/250px-Sutro.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutro_Tower&h=375&w=250&sz=15&hl=en&start=8&tbnid=4CX-6kCyYgA_fM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=81&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSutro%2BTower%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlan g_en%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-46,GGLD:en%26sa%3DN) :D

I was thinking more along the lines of the Pearl Tower in Shanghai, (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Pudong_night_01.jpg) along with the psychadelic light show.

That way we can even have observation decks to look out at the millions of people being irradiated. :D

When I was in Shanghai, my hotel room was in the Jin Mao tower, less than 1/4 mile away, and at the same level as the broadcast antennas. Guess I should be expecting the brain tumors to materialize any day now.

"Do we think they can kind of do whatever they want with this building legislation? Yes," McCasky said.

"The last thing I want to see is any kind of proliferation of towers. We hope that Lake Cedar Group intends to live up to the zoning approval where they build one (tower) and take four down.Oh sure -- Now they admit that they even approved the zoning! LCG should blast the f@*k out of the top of Lookout, carve a bust of Marv Rockford out of the rock, and place the supertower on his head!!

I was thinking more along the lines of the Pearl Tower in Shanghai, (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Pudong_night_01.jpg) along with the psychadelic light show.
Yup, you're right. The opulence of the Pearl tower is perfect for Golden, and it's a perfect match for their arrogance.

Maybe we should construct 2 of them so that they can hang a giant plasma display between them, so they can view their precious Mountain Backdrop.
....jc

FWIW, it looks like KDVR-DT has program guide information back.

"The whole thing was very stealthily done in the closing hours of the legislative session when no one is really paying close attention," said Deb Carney, legal director for CARE. "The bill clearly was hotlined through the Senate and House without any debate or scrutiny."

She said that CARE didn't know about the bill until Friday when a reporter from radio KGNU called to ask for a response.

"We contacted our Congressman, Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.). His chief of staff, Mac Zimmerman, said Tancredo had not heard anything about the bill until our call, and that he would have objected had he heard about it. He said the bill was not on their radar. A call to Zimmerman asking for confirmation was not returned before press time.

A clerk for the Senate Republican Conference, which e-mails all hotline notifications, said she could not find any record of a notice about S.4092 on or before Dec. 6. A staff member in the office of Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.), a vocal opponent of hotlining, also could not find any record of receiving advance notice about S.4092.

Carney charged Allard violated Senate rules for unanimous consent. Senators must be notified in advance about bills that will be hotlined. If there is one objection, a bill cannot be passed without debate.I wonder if SCARE will go to Federal court and argue the bill is invalid because of hotlining? I still can't see them knuckling under.

I wonder if SCARE will go to Federal court and argue the bill is invalid because of hotlining? I still can't see them knuckling under.Yet we're to believe the Senators would have given unanimous consent to a bill they've never heard of?

If they're doing that, that should give the public greater pause than anything going on surrounding this bill.

Some tibits on the tower(s)...

LCG is negotiating with JeffCo on the details. As LCG is now the ones in control. JeffCo knows they've lost the battle, and it's in their best interest to be cooperative and work out the best deal for everyone.

Most of Golden's city council believes the fight is over, but there's still a few who want to blow more money fighting. (Most likely, just to save face with the residents)

sCARE is now working on an old fire. KRMA with the new law, is going ahead with their tower on Mt. Morrision and sCARE is now putting all their money into fighting that tower again. It sounds like they're learning the Lookout fight is over.

sCARE is now working on an old fire. KRMA with the new law, is going ahead with their tower on Mt. Morrision and sCARE is now putting all their money into fighting that tower again. It sounds like they're learning the Lookout fight is over.
What a bunch of losers. I didn't even think that was a new tower (where KRMA was going on Mt. Morrison).

Yeah, it's a new design. Remember, it's more of a vertical design below the top of the hill.

The best thing for the people of Denver, would be for all the local stations to move to the same (LCG) site. Clean up the current mess, then get to work on cleaning up the FM's as well.

Maybe a tower for TV and a tower for FM. All buildings in the ground.

Much less radiation, no more need for antenna rotors, cleaner signals.

The best thing for the people of Denver, would be for all the local stations to move to the same (LCG) site. Clean up the current mess, then get to work on cleaning up the FM's as well.
I thought the proposal included the FM stations? I thought ALL the towers (including FM) were coming down on Lookout and being consolidated to one tower. Is that not right?

Some tibits on the tower(s)...

sCARE is now working on an old fire. KRMA with the new law, is going ahead with their tower on Mt. Morrision and sCARE is now putting all their money into fighting that tower again. It sounds like they're learning the Lookout fight is over.

Weren't they just saying that Mt. Morrison was where LCG should go... Or Eldorado. or any place but Lookout? So is it simply that these people need to have something to FIGHT about to justify their existence? For myself, who tries to be at least semi-rational, this is quite confusing!!

Phil P.

I thought the proposal included the FM stations? I thought ALL the towers (including FM) were coming down on Lookout and being consolidated to one tower. Is that not right?No, the LCGII application only called for 4, 7, 9, 20 being consolidated to a new tower. No radio. The older LCGI application called for some radio to be included. Of course, now LCG can do whatever they want as the LCGII application doesn't apply. And now, I believe LCG is playing the "We'll just keep all the old towers up" ace-in-the-hole card as negotiating leverage against JeffCo.

Phil,
sCARE doesn't know which end is up right now. They've been saying a lot of goofy things lately that make no sense, like the quote about Eldorado Mt. Where did that come from? Eldorado's been off the table for years. They're completely lost.

:rolleyes:
Winner? And how long have most other cities had Digital broadcasts? Uh, huh.
And when we we see the 1st High Power Digital Broadcast? Uh, huh.

Winner?

I guess without an emoticon to telegraph your intent, nobody can detect humor, subtlety, or sarcasm anymore. ;) There, get it?

I have been lurking and occasionally posting in this forum a couple of years now. Though I live a mere 6-7 miles from Lookout, I don't have a line of sight that allows me to get anything from that location. I resorted to a roof mounted 4228 with a rotor to achieve mixed results, and ultimately cable for additional content. I have a dog in this fight too, also believing that the public safety aspect is the most important part of this, and have been actively writing letters to the Jeffco commisioners, etc.

CARE won most of the battles that counted (those that could block progress on this,) yet managed to lose the war. Yes, Denver is years behind the majority of cities in the US, but now it is starting to move. Yes, it took federal intervention, but now it is going to happen.

But just as there are larger issues with the tower than the narrow interests of a bunch of folks who are apparently too stupid to know they were buying property in close proximity to most of the broadcast towers in Denver, as a resident of Jefferson County I know the tower is a symptom of larger issues with the city of Golden and Jefferson County. In general, there is plenty of muck to go around and things that could use fixing if you are paying attention.

Fun is fun, but I have come to expect a higher level of conversation on this topic than giving the losers "the finger" and then getting snarky about a post that tries to inject a little gentle humor.

The attack against KRMA has me confused as well. I would imagine KRMA has some leveraging power now too. They could retreat back to the LCG and make that a fifth antenna, or go back to using their old tower on Lookout. IMO, the sCARE interest would be best be served to just let KRMA build their tower. For many of us, though, Lookout would be the perferred location.

I have a dog in this fight too, also believing that the public safety aspect is the most important part of thisI think you know better than to believe sCARE's preposterous health stories are just a cover for their greed. Increasing property values and getting rich is what they've been after all along. Forcefully obstruct the tower applications until the stations move elsewhere and they get stupid rich.

We've covered this over and over. If they truly believed they were harming their own children day after day with deadly radiation, they'd move. I know I would. I live up here and am directly "In-the-beam" as sCARE claims the most dangerous location to live. The fix to that is get rid of the omni-directional antenna's on the old towers and build the new consolidation tower with directional antennas, so that residents aren't "In the beam" any more. Part of the problem solved. The bigger part is radio and we have no control over those antennas. sCARE should be fighting them and not this.

I have never understood why they don't fight them. Even Al has admitted that radio is the biggest emitter of RF. TV is only 5% of the total RF. If you want to fight the true RF danger, its the radio stations.

Earth-moving equipment on Lookout yesterday:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5005455

:D :D :D

Pro Tower Letter To The Editor In Todays Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion/article/0,1299,DRMN_38_5276697,00.html)

Fun is fun, but I have come to expect a higher level of conversation on this topic than giving the losers "the finger" and then getting snarky about a post that tries to inject a little gentle humor.
You still don't get it do you? We're all the losers. Especially those of us that still can't receive some of the digital broadcasts from Denver.

If you want to pat sCARE on the back and tell them 'nice game'. Go for it. These are the same people that wouldn't hesitate to stab you in the back to make a few bucks or kick you in the nuts to obtain a better 'view'.

Enjoy their company, and I'm sure that their level of conversation suits you better.
....jc

Earth-moving equipment on Lookout yesterday. :D :D :D
Nice move LCG!!! Perfect timing. Too damn cold for sCARE to force the children to lay down in a human-chain in front of the dozers!

I think you know better than to believe sCARE's preposterous health stories are just a cover for their greed. Increasing property values and getting rich is what they've been after all along. Forcefully obstruct the tower applications until the stations move elsewhere and they get stupid rich.

We've covered this over and over. If they truly believed they were harming their own children day after day with deadly radiation, they'd move. I know I would. I live up here and am directly "In-the-beam" as sCARE claims the most dangerous location to live. The fix to that is get rid of the omni-directional anteanna's on the old towers and build the new consolidation tower with directional antennas, so that we're not "In the beam" any more. Part of the problem solved. The bigger part is Radio and we have no control over those antennas. sCARE should be fighting that and not this.

I have never understood why they don't fight them. Even Al has admitted that Radio is the biggest emitter of RF. TV is only 5% of the total RF. If you want to fight the true RF danger, its the radio stations.

Ernie,

We agree! As I have previously posted, (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8491201#post8491201) I have zero respect for the pure, unadulterated BS trotted out over and over by those folks as "public health concerns."

By public safety (which like so many thing these days means different things to different people,) I meant the police, fire, and homeland security consolidation frequencies that are supposed to be created when analog goes away, as well as the broadcast of OTA TV in digital. I have never been less than 100% in favor of moving forward with this.

Earth-moving equipment on Lookout yesterday:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5005455

:D :D :D

The big news there is that a motion was filed to dismiss the re-zoning challenge on Thursday, Jan. 11. Now we wait for Judge Jackson to do what needs to be done to comply with federal law and dismiss the injunction.

Don

I think you know better than to believe sCARE's preposterous health stories are just a cover for their greed. Increasing property values and getting rich is what they've been after all along. Forcefully obstruct the tower applications until the stations move elsewhere and they get stupid rich.
.

If I read Pat's post correctly, he was talking about the "public safety" issue in terms of having the ability for everyone to have access to television, not the sCARE BS issue about RF. Perhaps I am incorrect, but that is how I took it.

Perhaps we might ease up on him, he sure is not sounding like a CARE supporter, nor an anti-tower proponent to me.

Just my thoughts...and this is easier than going out to shovel snow at 11 degrees F ! :(
:)

Phil P.

You still don't get it do you? We're all the losers. Especially those of us that still can't receive some of the digital broadcasts from Denver.

If you want to pat sCARE on the back and tell them 'nice game'. Go for it. These are the same people that wouldn't hesitate to stab you in the back to make a few bucks or kick you in the nuts to obtain a better 'view'.

Enjoy their company, and I'm sure that their level of conversation suits you better.
....jc

(sigh) I must be getting old, I remember when it was possible to have an intelligent, civil, respectful conversation without going all "scorched earth." Especially with people you were largely agreeing with. Whatever.

The big news there is that a motion was filed to dismiss the re-zoning challenge on Thursday, Jan. 11. Now we wait for Judge Jackson to do what needs to be done to comply with federal law and dismiss the injunction.

Don

From the paper article from the post of dr_mal:
"In the motion, Lake Cedar officials argue that a bill passed by Congress and signed by President Bush late last year pre-empts the county's land-use laws, removes the issue from the court's jurisdiction and authorizes construction."

So at this point, it does not appear that there is an injunction to be concerned about.

I find it interesting as well that it says that Jeffco "WANTS" LCG to comply with the 2003 rezoning decision (that they likely would not have re-approved save for an act of congress). It is nice to know that LCG is under no constraints to do that if they don't decide that it is in their best interests. (keep the four existing towers?? Maybe a real SUPER TOWER at the top of the hill ??)

I guess in the long run, as they will have to continue to work with these people, it is in their best interests to play nice. It is just good to know that thye really don't have to!!


The big news there is that a motion was filed to dismiss the re-zoning challenge on Thursday, Jan. 11. Now we wait for Judge Jackson to do what needs to be done to comply with federal law and dismiss the injunction.

Don

From the paper article from the post of dr_mal:
"In the motion, Lake Cedar officials argue that a bill passed by Congress and signed by President Bush late last year pre-empts the county's land-use laws, removes the issue from the court's jurisdiction and authorizes construction."

So at this point, it does not appear that there is an injunction to be concerned about.

The motion was filed to get the injunction/lawsuit dismissed. In legal terms, it was an argument (Lake Cedar officials argue), not a notification to Jefferson County District Court. I agree that the injunction is no longer a concern; Judge Jackson needs to proceed with the formality of lifting the injunction and dismissing the case.

Don

Thanks Don - that clears it up for me.

Pro Tower Letter To The Editor In Todays Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/opinion/article/0,1299,DRMN_38_5276697,00.html)

(Bob takes a bow.)

You are most welcome. And you read it here first a week ago before I emailed it to the Rocky. :p

(Bob takes a bow.)

You are most welcome. And you read it here first a week ago before I emailed it to the Rocky. :p
I thought it sounded familiar - figured someone was just plagiarizing from this thread :)

Great job, Bob!

My $.02 on local TV technical decisions.

I pray the local stations realize they are destroying our HD CRT and Plasma televisions by posting black sidebars rather than gray when showing SD broadcasts.

My TV, a bit over a year old, is already showing burn-in.

What in the hell are they thinking!

I COMPLETELY agree! They SHOULD be broadcasting 4x3 in 4x3, not 16x9 with their own black bars. Let my TV handle it. There are some people with 4x3 720p sets that now have to watch the thing squashed into a little square in the middle. Others have to deal with burn in...

(Bob takes a bow.)

You are most welcome. And you read it here first a week ago before I emailed it to the Rocky. :p
Congratulations on a job well done, I knew I had read it before somewhere.....just couldn't remember for sure where. I was hoping someone would 'fess up'.

I COMPLETELY agree! They SHOULD be broadcasting 4x3 in 4x3, not 16x9 with their own black bars. Let my TV handle it. There are some people with 4x3 720p sets that now have to watch the thing squashed into a little square in the middle. Others have to deal with burn in...

Yeah, I agree too. And my OTA/cable/satellite tuner should pass through the native mode (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, etc.) to my TV so that my I can scale exactly once--using the top-notch scaling and deinterlacing circuits in my high-end HDTV. (It's a 42" Panasonic industrial plasma.)

Anybody listen to the Comcast TV spot promoting HDTV on Fox during 24? Comcast is stating they have the best PQ available. Uh... NOT! OTA is the best PQ.

I watched 24 and saw the Comcast spot, but missed that item. We mute the set during almost all commercials. My OTA HDTV PQ was great during 24.

Received a reply to my email to Senator Allard thanking him for S.4092:
Thank you for contacting me to express your views regarding a digital television broadcast station tower located on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County, Colorado. I appreciate you taking the time to write on such an important issue. As you may already know, digital television (DTV) is a new television service representing the most significant development in television technology since the introduction of color television in the 1950s. Due to the superior broadcast quality and more efficient use of the radiofrequency spectrum provided by DTV, the Congress and the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) set February 19, 2009 as a target date for broadcasters to transition from analog signals to digital. Facing a fast approaching 2009 federal deadline for a mandatory transition to DTV, we needed a solution to provide free, over-the-air digital signals to 600,000 Denver metro area residents who rely on over-the-air broadcasts for news, emergency alerts, and entertainment - particularly those who cannot afford satellite or cable. Therefore, Senator Salazar and I introduced legislation, S.4092, to allow an FCC approved permit holder to construct a digital television broadcast antenna or tower of the same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or tower on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County, Colorado. I am pleased that the Senate and the House on December 6 and December 9, respectively, unanimously approved this bi-partisan legislation that President Bush signed into law on December 22, 2006. Again, thank you for writing to express your concerns. If you would like more information regarding this and other issues important to Colorado, please visit my website.

Anybody listen to the Comcast TV spot promoting HDTV on Fox during 24? Comcast is stating they have the best PQ available. Uh... NOT! OTA is the best PQ.
Nope. Put the Dish 622 to work at 7:00pm and started watching it at 7:40pm. This should give you a hint why I missed it. I did record it on 031-1 not 6333. Maybe it is just me, but I think the PQ on 031-1 looks better then 6333. All prime time shows I record and watch later. It works out that a 1 hour show usually has about 20 minutes of commercials, Etc. It seems that sometimes the commercials last so long you almost forget what you are watching.

I got the same reply from Sen Allard, word for word, last Thursday.

I got the same reply from Sen Allard, word for word, last Thursday.What a surprise.

I suspect he (and any other Senator) have staff that take every incoming letter and do two things with it:
a) increment a count of how many letters they have received echoing the same sentiment.
b) match the letter to one of a couple hundred canned responses they have stored in the word processor, covering every hot topic from ANWR to Zimbabwe.

The existence of step (a) is what makes it important to write the letter in the first place.

I got the same reply from Sen Allard, word for word, last Thursday.


Me Too!

Me three (or four)!

Last night I began getting 11-2, 11-3, 11-4, 11-8, 11-13 on my H20 OTA. None of these have any audio, and all appear to be Spanish language stations. Here's the interesting part... 11-8 is K39BZ out of Lake City / Jacksonville Florida, but I haven't been able to figure out what the others are yet. I did a Google search on the call letters and figured out that it is transmitted on 123.0 West Galaxy 10R-Ku Band. Is someone rebroadcasting these channels locally or is there some freak reason I'm picking them up?

It looks like there might be some construction going on up at Lookout Mt. Are they building a road to the new tower site?

Al or Deb, could one of you take a look out your window and post what the activity is?

Al or Deb, could one of you take a look out your window and post what the activity is?

Ernie, you're as cold as ice! You forgot to warn then to put on their radio active gear.

Ernie, you're as cold as ice! You forgot to warn then to put on their radio active gear.
I agree Ernie, pretty cold. Is the weather getting to you? As for the radio active gear, check the local super markets and see if there are still any aluminum foil rolls left on the shelves. It takes about a quarter of a roll to make one of those protective hats, and a half a roll to cover the normal sized kitchen window!
:cool:

It looks like there might be some construction going on up at Lookout Mt. Are they building a road to the new tower site?
C'mon! Someone take pictures!

I got the same Allard email. Noted for its total lack of formatting!

Anybody listen to the Comcast TV spot promoting HDTV on Fox during 24? Comcast is stating they have the best PQ available. Uh... NOT! OTA is the best PQ.

I also loved how the ad was not in HD! Just graphics and text and they still didn't spend the money to produce it in HD. Good job Comcast!

When do the (S)CARE constituents mount the lawsuit against Deb Carney for scare-mongering, mis-representation, and wasting their money on a doomed campaign against the towers?

The D* H20 has a "Native" mode that does just that. ie Will pass the native resolution that it recieves to the display. I don't use it as it akes too long to change channels. I may not be following this well, but I have the H20 set to output 1080i, the display upscales to 1080P. I don't notice any aspec ratio problems. OTA the stations set what they send. It does not seem that the STB has any control over this! If in the DTV mode, I only get a full screen with side bars on 480 source. Are you folks talking about the NON-HD stuff on analog OTA or SAT? What am I missing?

Phil P.


Yeah, I agree too. And my OTA/cable/satellite tuner should pass through the native mode (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, etc.) to my TV so that my I can scale exactly once--using the top-notch scaling and deinterlacing circuits in my high-end HDTV. (It's a 42" Panasonic industrial plasma.)

Man it has really got to $uck these days in the (S)CARE front office. First they lose the war with the recent congressional bill, and now, public enemy #2 (LCG = #1) Wayne Allard decides not to run for the Senate again. All those campaign efforts to make Sen. Allard 'pay for his crime' are now not possible. Talk about 'pent up frustration'. It makes you wonder who Deb C. and her misguided friends will find to hate next??? Let's hope it's not the ba$tards at the AVS forum. They could flood the thread with hate mail.

I just read another item of interest. KWGN is planning on replacing their big tower and/or antenna also under SB4092. So, now it's KRMA, KWGN & LCG all planning new tower projects. sCARE is getting blasted from all fronts and their $$$$$ can't fight it all.

Wayne Allard decides not to run for the Senate again.Not a huge surprise, except to the extent that any politician abiding by his (term limit) pledge is an anomaly.

I still think KWGN, KDVR, and KRMA should latch onto the LCG tower - seems like it would be a win-win for everyone.

I really hope that the stations can go back to the negotiating table and consolidate all those projects in exchange for rezoning and guarantees that they'll be able to upgrade, repair, etc. in the future w/o a legal battle. I want my free OTA HDTV, but it would be nice to see that the visuals were improved in the process.

I just read another item of interest. KWGN is planning on replacing their big tower and/or antenna also under SB4092. So, now it's KRMA, KWGN & LCG all planning new tower projects. sCARE is getting blasted from all fronts and their $$$$$ can't fight it all.Good.

All SCARE needed to do was exercise common sense but their greed prevailed. Now they are helpless and have no real say in the matter. It's really nice to see the bad guys getting their just rewards. They took the all or nothing approach and that gamble didn't pay off. Let they stay losers.

IMO the only thing the stations really should do is meet the intent of the JeffCo Telecommunications Land Use bill but not enter into any "Mother may I" negotiations. You know the old saying about giving an inch and taking a mile. If I were LCG I would basically honor what was passed but I sure wouldn't go back to the table. KWGN isn't part of LCG but I suspect they'll act in a responsible manner and won't just build a new tower and leave the others in place. Remember, they were also stymied by SCARE and with their present setup cannot achieve their licensed ERP. Now they can fix that problem.

I watched 24 and saw the Comcast spot, but missed that item. We mute the set during almost all commercials. My OTA HDTV PQ was great during 24.

I have Comcast. PQ was okay through the component cable and great via the IEEE 1394. However, there were some packet delivery problems on both nights. Worse on Sunday.

So, how does the US retaliate?

I really hope that the stations can go back to the negotiating table and consolidate all those projects in exchange for rezoning and guarantees that they'll be able to upgrade, repair, etc. in the future w/o a legal battle. I want my free OTA HDTV, but it would be nice to see that the visuals were improved in the process.

One does not renegotiate once you've won. The US govt has authorized it. Just do it. But be a good neighbor in the process. And if Golden or Jeffco barks, let them sue you. If they go to state court, throw the federal statute at the judge and say you're going to federal district court. Then do so IMMEDIATELY.

But whatever you do, don't renegotiate once you've won.

I think Jeffco is still getting some mixed signals from both their internal 'Mayberry-grad' legal council and sCARE's non-stop calls and voicemails they they can still win, we can win... really, I have an new idea... let me try some more... p-l-e-a-s-e!

I don't think any of us truly believe LCG will leave the old towers up. It doesn't make sense from a cost point of view. Maintaince, insurance etc. They are just posturing the threat of leaving them to show who's the Alpha dog now.

KWGN will most likely stay on their own land/tower and just replace the antenna. I don't know what KRMA should do. To build out from scratch on Mt Morrision is very expensive, unelss they rent space to all the little independents. Otherwise, re-teaming with LCG seems logical.

One does not renegotiate once you've won. The US govt has authorized it. Just do it. But be a good neighbor in the process.
I just foresee problems coming up in the future when the stations want to make changes and someone challenges if that change is authorized by the Senate Bill. If they can get JeffCo to change the zoning now so that the towers become "conforming" - why not do that? In the end, they could get everything they wanted PLUS a change in the zoning to try and avoid future problems.

I'm a firm believer of not putting all your eggs in a single basket (tower?). If the power, or something else happens at the new LCG tower it would be nice to have other facilities (KWGN, KDVR) up and still running. I would think that would be best for the community.

Two facilities, each with a tower and building.....one for FM stations and smaller backup DTV transmitters, one for DTV stations and smaller backup FM transmitters ;) .

Although not very likely, we have had one short outage at Farnsworth Peak, when the power failed and the backup generators didn't start. But, a major fire or earthquake is still a remote possibility. Still, not having to re-aim antennas constantly, is a boon to viewers. Extensive fire protection, dual power sources plus multiple generators, and backup transmitters and standby antennas....plus lots of pre-planning, is what it takes.

I just foresee problems coming up in the future when the stations want to make changes Not that I'm a sleazy lawyer or anything, but the way I understand the bill is that there is no more zoning issues. It's moot. It's now federal and not local anymore. Like a naval base or military installation. The city and county have no jurisdiction over the site.

Not that I'm a sleazy lawyer or anything, but the way I understand the bill is that there is no more zoning issues. It's moot. It's now federal and not local anymore. Like a naval base or military installation. The city and county have no jurisdiction over the site.
Ernie, that would be my read too.
The bill reads
"..........may, at such location, construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate such antenna or tower, or both, and all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts, ......."

It says specifically may modify, replace, repair etc. I believe this is no longer under any Jeffco jurisdiction as long as building codes are met. As for negotiating with Jeffco, I would hope the stations don't go out of their way to antagonize Jeffco, but I would not want them to negotiate a thing with Jeffco otherwise. As Geof said, (S)CARE asked for all or nothing, and they got what they asked for.

I had a nice tour of Lookout Mountain this afternoon, drove down Cedar Lake Road past the taaaalll tower, then over to Grandview, etc., and got a look from the other side. The natives were friendly...more than once they stopped and let me through the skinny parts first and we waved!

But, I think it's a bit early in the process. I don't think LCG will change their plans much, 'cause a permit in hand is a good thing! The only earth moving equipment I saw was a huge front loader cleaning the driveway to the tower. I didn't take a picture because there was nothing new to see.

Nice trip, though! Down memory lane...it occured to me I dated a girl from Lookout while I was in high school in Golden. I drove up Lariat Trail to take her home and the conditions were like last Friday...snow, snow packed, slick...it was New Year's night, 1963, and I finally remembered her name. Sue Richardson. I hope she had a good time...

Tim

I just read another item of interest. KWGN is planning on replacing their big tower and/or antenna also under SB4092. So, now it's KRMA, KWGN & LCG all planning new tower projects. sCARE is getting blasted from all fronts and their $$$$$ can't fight it all.

Might be better to say that sCARE is getting blasted from all fronts and their $$$$$ can't fight it AT all.
:D :D :D

Just checked all the sites today. Not a single word since Bush signed the law. Nada, Zippo, Zilch on sCARE, City & County Views or HDTVHonestly sites. It's like they're all speechless, even to their own cult.

Al or Deb, could one of you take a look out your window and post what the activity is?
I have a spare webcam that we could offer to put in one of their windows, then we could watch all of the new towers going up online & live!

OOOh!, and even BETTER idea...

Hey Marv, how 'bout a new live webcam on Lookout with links on the LCG member sites (just like all of the other WX and traffic cams)? Denver viewers could watch the progress of the construction. I know that I would keep an eye on it.

Ernie, did you get my email? I may not have your current one.

OK. If you guys think that the Senate Bill completely removes JeffCo's ability to enforce zoning regulations on the site in perpetuity, then I rescind my call to negotiate with the county. My reading was that the bill allowed them to modify the site to switch to digital TV. If something else comes up in the future, then they would have to go back to the county for permission because their use is non-conforming.

If there will be no future issues with their non-conforming status per current county zoning regulations, then there is no need to negotiate.

Just wanted to post an update and thank everyone again who offered advice.

I posted recently about losing OTA channel 4-1 reception on my HR10-250.

I aimed the antenna directly at RP and 4-1 went from the high teens to the low 40's. The picture showed occasional pixelation but at least it was there. Mostly. But then I began to lose 9-1! So, I overnighted a Winegard AP-8700 preamp and now all my signal strengths are above 70, with most of them in the mid 80's low 90's! Life is good.

Thanks again everyone.

I just foresee problems coming up in the future when the stations want to make changes and someone challenges if that change is authorized by the Senate Bill. If they can get JeffCo to change the zoning now so that the towers become "conforming" - why not do that? In the end, they could get everything they wanted PLUS a change in the zoning to try and avoid future problems.

I can see that. However, the leverage for all of this comes in two directions: jail time for violating federal law and cutting off all the federal money Jeffco receives for everything from Medicaid to parks and road maintenance. They need Uncle Sugar's cash, and will pretty much do whatever Uncle Sugar wants at this point... or else.

That and, even though it's in their county, I don't think the commissioners want to spend any substantial amounts of time at the federal prison on Kipling for violating federal law. There is no parole when serving time on a federal rap. Do the crime, do the time, as conservatives are want to say.

Finally, Jeffco is so cash strapped under Tabor and Gallagher, they can't really afford to fight this and still clear the roads after snow. They're just about out of money right now. This is going to be interesting if we keep getting big storms through May. Maybe they could pass around the hat and get private funders to pony up the cash to fight it, but then we have the specter of federal jail time for breaking the law.

I can see that. However, the leverage for all of this comes in two directions: jail time for violating federal law and cutting off all the federal money Jeffco receives for everything from Medicaid to parks and road maintenance. They need Uncle Sugar's cash, and will pretty much do whatever Uncle Sugar wants at this point... or else.

That and, even though it's in their county, I don't think the commissioners want to spend any substantial amounts of time at the federal prison on Kipling for violating federal law. There is no parole when serving time on a federal rap. Do the crime, do the time, as conservatives are want to say.

Finally, Jeffco is so cash strapped under Tabor and Gallagher, they can't really afford to fight this and still clear the roads after snow. They're just about out of money right now. This is going to be interesting if we keep getting big storms through May. Maybe they could pass around the hat and get private funders to pony up the cash to fight it, but then we have the specter of federal jail time for breaking the law.I don't think it is anywhere near this complicated.

When the stations want to make changes in the future, they will first go to the FCC for approval; any issues about safe radiation levels will be discussed there. If the change involves more than equipment (say, modifiying the tower or outbuildings), then they will apply for a Building Permit - they will not go through the zoning process at all. The only way this ends up in court is if the building permit guys try to throw in issues outside their purview - very unlikely, IMHO.

I don't see any tie between S.4092 and federal funding that flows to Jeffco, although Congress could have included such language in the bill had they chosen to. They didn't think they needed to, and I don't either. It's over.

I don't think it is anywhere near this complicated.

When the stations want to make changes in the future, they will first go to the FCC for approval; any issues about safe radiation levels will be discussed there. If the change involves more than equipment (say, modifiying the tower or outbuildings), then they will apply for a Building Permit - they will not go through the zoning process at all. The only way this ends up in court is if the building permit guys try to throw in issues outside their purview - very unlikely, IMHO.

I don't see any tie between S.4092 and federal funding that flows to Jeffco, although Congress could have included such language in the bill had they chosen to. They didn't think they needed to, and I don't either. It's over.Agreed. All their troubles to date are due to zoning issues which S.4092 resolves. My read is that S.4092 means no zoning hearings - ever. No zoning hearings means they can go directly to the permit process. If they meet all county building requirements they can go do their thing. If not then they go back to the drawing board to meet requirements. And they ought to meet all building code requirements - just like everyone else must.

So, how long does it take to build this thing? After these many years how many more do we have to wait for full power along the front range??

Dan

After these many years how many more do we have to wait for full power along the front range??No more than two years (since that's the deadline for analog shutoff). And not much less either, is my guess.

Agreed. All their troubles to date are due to zoning issues which S.4092 resolves.
Are you sure about that? It seems like most of the challenges came on construction issues (setback, guy wires, height of tower, etc.). It didn't seem to be just a flat denial based on zoning.

Honestly though, I don't really remember the whole convoluted history of the application process. Obviously, their legal non-conforming zoning status affects their application, but the specific issues seem to be ones that could still be raised even if the zoning were different.

Digital sub channels going away?

I saw this at DBSTalk. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=76429

Any talk of this happening here?

Are you sure about that? It seems like most of the challenges came on construction issues (setback, guy wires, height of tower, etc.). It didn't seem to be just a flat denial based on zoning.

Honestly though, I don't really remember the whole convoluted history of the application process. Obviously, their legal non-conforming zoning status affects their application, but the specific issues seem to be ones that could still be raised even if the zoning were different.
All those guy wire/setback/tower height issues were smokescreen issues that sCARE raised as reasons why the rezoning should be denied.

Since zoning isn't an issue anymore, all those other issues are moot as well.

All those guy wire/setback/tower height issues were smokescreen issues that sCARE raised as reasons why the rezoning should be denied.
Yes, but can't these issues be raised to deny a building permit as well?

Yes, but can't these issues be raised to deny a building permit as well?Difference is that building permits are a technical, administrative process, not a political process. There are no hearings and commissioners involved. Your application meets code, or it doesn't. If the guy wires aren't strong enough, the permit guys can (and should) require LCG to make them bigger, sink them deeper, whatever it takes.

And at this point I don't think Allard and Salazar would have much patience for more shenanigans. They could pass another bill stripping permit authority from Jeffco as well, if they had to. If you are Jeffco, do you really want to get slapped down and have to bend over AGAIN?

Yes, but can't these issues be raised to deny a building permit as well?No.
They need to meet building code requirements to get a permit and that stuff is pretty black and white. LCG2 meets all requirements but SCARE kept pounding away on anything they could think of to confuse the issue.

KWGN will most likely stay on their own land/tower and just replace the antenna. I don't know what KRMA should do. To build out from scratch on Mt Morrision is very expensive, unelss they rent space to all the little independents. Otherwise, re-teaming with LCG seems logical.

The KRMA situation is interesting. The text of the bill here:

Notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations, and subject to all applicable Federal laws and regulations, any person that holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, located on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County in the State of Colorado, may, at such location, construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate such antenna or tower, or both, and all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts, if such antenna or tower is of the same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or tower at such location.

indicates Lookout Mountain by name. I don't see how this in and of itself frees KRMA to construct the horizontal tower/antenna on Mt. Morrison. It seems like they would be better off moving, but that is not what Ernie heard. Time will tell

The KRMA situation is interesting. The text of the bill here:

indicates Lookout Mountain by name. I don't see how this in and of itself frees KRMA to construct the horizontal tower/antenna on Mt. Morrison. It seems like they would be better off moving, but that is not what Ernie heard. Time will tellRemember, the Morrison project was approved -- but then delayed beyond reason by SCARE. I don't know where that project stands but I'm 99.99% positive that KRMA entered into legal agreements (including leasing fees) with the owner of the existing property. They may not be able to back out of that (without being sued) if the project is still doable. OTOH, if that project is not doable then they may be free to pursue alternatives

The KRMA situation is interesting. The text of the bill here:

indicates Lookout Mountain by name. I don't see how this in and of itself frees KRMA to construct the horizontal tower/antenna on Mt. Morrison. It seems like they would be better off moving, but that is not what Ernie heard. Time will tellAs I read the language, if they (KRMA) want to broadcast from Lookout (either on their own tower or with LCG) all they would need to do is apply for a CP to the FCC. But S.4092 doesn't do anything to help them fight (s)CARE on Mt. Morrison.

You guys wanted pictures...

This is an 'official' pic of the start of construction of the LCG tower!!! They are prepping the ground and clearing the ground, looking for stakes planted during the design stage.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/towerstart.jpg

You guys wanted pictures...

This is an 'official' pic of the start of construction of the LCG tower!!! They are prepping the ground and clearing the ground, looking for stakes planted during the design stage.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/towerstart.jpg

Wow.... such an amazing sight and much sooner than I anticipated given the recent weather conditions.

You da man, Ernie. That picture is beautiful. Got any higher-res versions suitable for desktop wallpaper?

I didn't take it. I received it from someone on the inside - wink, wink. It just feels so goooooood, rubbin' it in the sCARE faces. They've caused me quite a bit of Agita (http://www.bartleby.com/61/28/A0142800.html) that I hope they're happy with what they've wrought.

This is an 'official' pic of the start of construction of the LCG tower!!! They are prepping the ground and clearing the ground, looking for stakes planted during the design stage.Is the area fenced? Otherwise I would think the SCARE minions removed them long ago…

Digital sub channels going away?

I saw this at DBSTalk. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=76429

Any talk of this happening here?Neither 2-2 nor 9-2 are locally derived, so I think it would be trivial for The Tube and NBC to add the required content to their feeds and it wouldn't cost KWGN or KUSA a dime.

The only other subchannels I know of are on KBDI-DT, which likely exceeds the FCC requirements already.

You guys wanted pictures...

This is an 'official' pic of the start of construction of the LCG tower!!! They are prepping the ground and clearing the ground, looking for stakes planted during the design stage.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/towerstart.jpgNice view from up there.

Which, I guess, is another way of saying why it always has been the ideal location for TV transmission.

Is the area fenced? Otherwise I would think the SCARE minions removed them long ago…
There is only one way in and it is fenced. That is the front loader that I saw day before yesterday and they hadn't moved snow at the dishes yet.

I think the stakes are in the pile of dirt just to the left of the plowed part :eek:

Tim

All those guy wire/setback/tower height issues were smokescreen issues that sCARE raised as reasons why the rezoning should be denied.

Since zoning isn't an issue anymore, all those other issues are moot as well.

Once again for everybody's benefit, SB 4092:
--

Begun and held at the City of Washington on Tuesday,

the third day of January, two thousand and six

An Act

To clarify certain land use in Jefferson County, Colorado.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. CLARIFICATION OF CERTAIN LAND USE IN JEFFERSON COUNTY, COLORADO.

Notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations, and subject to all applicable Federal laws and regulations, any person that holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, located on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County in the State of Colorado, may, at such location, construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate such antenna or tower, or both, and all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts, if such antenna or tower is of the same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or tower at such location.
--
First, the bill says "notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations..." This is out of the hands of both Zoning AND the Permit department. Where a tower/antenna is concerned, all state and local land use laws or regulations are void.

Second, the bill says, "any person that holds an approved FCC permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both..." the permit to construct comes from the FCC, not the county, not the state.

Third, " if such antenna or tower is of the same height or lower than the tallest existing analog broadcast antenna or tower at such location."... the only proviso on construction of the antenna or tower, and only the antenna or tower, is that it be the same height or lower than the tallest analog antenna/tower already there.

Now I suppose Jeffco could deny permits to build the actual office building or housing for the electronics, if new buildings are required. But when it comes to the tower/antenna, the permit comes from the FCC and the only bar to construction is height.

This is why I wrote that I hope the stations are good neighbors. I sincerely hope they build the towers as safely as state-of-the-art construction techniques allow. I also see no bar to suing them if a structure fails and harms the person or property or another.

Now I suppose Jeffco could deny permits to build the transmitter office/housing, if new buildings are required. Nope, I think that's what the phrase "all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts" is meant to take care of.

any person that holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both,....

Does the FCC issue tower permits? I know that antenna support structures over 200 feet tall must be registered with the FCC, but I do not know if the FCC actually issues permits for new towers.

-Wabisabi

Nope, I think that's what the phrase "all accompanying facilities and services associated with such digital television broadcasts" is meant to take care of.

Okay. I now see that. Do you suppose when they need to cook dinner, they put it next to the microwave transmitter? I'll bet Deb thinks so! :p

Does the FCC issue tower permits? I know that antenna support structures over 200 feet tall must be registered with the FCC, but I do not know if the FCC actually issues permits for new towers.

-WabisabiWell the FCC does issue "Construction Permits" for new broadcasting facilities, and is thus one of the approvals needed for a new tower. What S.4092 does is state that on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County, Colorado the FCC permit is not only necessary but also SUFFICIENT.

Does the FCC issue tower permits? I know that antenna support structures over 200 feet tall must be registered with the FCC, but I do not know if the FCC actually issues permits for new towers.

-Wabisabi

According to this law:

any person that holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install...

That makes sense, given the FCC has the responsibility under the FCC Act to regulate the technology and all that goes with it. I don't think they have the power under the Constitution to regulate content, though, and am glad this is finally being challenged by Fox (not that I'm a fan of Rupert Murdoch).

First, the bill says "notwithstanding any applicable State or local land use or condemnation laws or regulations..." This is out of the hands of both Zoning AND the Permit department. Where a tower/antenna is concerned, all state and local land use laws or regulations are void.
I think that's a very generous interpretation, and I'm not sure it's right. It's getting kinda silly for me to continue to argue here because I'm not a real estate lawyer, but I'll persist :p

The bill specifically identifies land use and condemnation. But surely the tower and associated construction still has to meet all applicable building codes. I don't see any way that a judge would agree that the bill allows the stations to build something that doesn't meet code (but then judges have surprised me before). I would say it just allows them to build it in the required manner without regard to their non-conforming land use status.

This is at the heart of the point I raised earlier - that the county might still have scrutiny over construction details like setbacks and guy wires. There might still be hoops to jump through, but ultimately the plans couldn't be denied, they might just have to be modified until they meet a county planner's and inspector's interpretation of the building code.

Second, the bill says, "any person that holds an approved FCC permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both..." the permit to construct comes from the FCC, not the county, not the state.
I believe that the FCC permit is approval for a license holder to build a transmission facility to operate on the approved frequency at the approved power. I don't think it covers construction details that would be handled by local building code. For example, LCG would still have to get county approval, permits and have inspectors on site to run power to the location of the new support building. I also assume that inspectors would look at the concrete they pour for the buiding, and so on.

I wish I had concrete (no pun intended) evidence to support my interpretation, but I don't. I thought it would be interesting to raise an alternate interpretation for discussion until we get definitive word from LCG on how they interpret the Bill or from the County on how they interpret the Bill.

As background, I don't have anything to do with construction myself, but my Dad was a general contractor and I'm pretty familiar with the difference between land use, building code, and construction permits.

weldon, I tend to agree with your interpretation of what S.4092 covers and what is doesn't. But I think the scope for Jeffco to create mischief with their remaining jurisdiction on this matter is pretty small - and that if they try it, Allard and Salazar will just smack them down again.

weldon, I tend to agree with your interpretation of what S.4092 covers and what is doesn't. But I think the scope for Jeffco to create mischief with their remaining jurisdiction on this matter is pretty small
Yes, I agree. I think that LCG only needs to follow code to be OK. Obviously there is a way to build stuff that meets the code, so the county planners and inspectors could only hold them up while they prove that they meet code - I don't think they could shut them down in any circumstance as long as they meet code. Of course, my experience with watching my Dad in construction is that planners and inspectors can sometimes be a royal pain if they don't think you are doing things right.

Well the FCC does issue "Construction Permits" for new broadcasting facilities, and is thus one of the approvals needed for a new tower.


Well, if the FCC does not issue permits for towers, then how can someone "...holds an approved Federal Communications Commission permit to construct or install either a digital television broadcast station antenna or tower, or both, located on Lookout Mountain in Jefferson County in the State of Colorado, may, at such location, construct, install, use, modify, replace, repair, or consolidate such antenna or tower, or both..."

It seems to me that this law may only let them put DTV antennas on existing towers, unless the FCC actually issues them a permit to install a tower. And again, I have not seen any FCC permit for a tower, only the antennas. I would love to be shown an FCC permit for a tower, to ease my concerns.

-Wabisabi

Anyone in the military? Does a secret Govt base like in Aurora, just allow any Joe-Bob Aurora permit inspector to inspect and approve all the secret electronics?

Anyone in the military? Does a secret Govt base like in Aurora, just allow any Joe-Bob Aurora permit inspector to inspect and approve all the secret electronics?
I understand what you are saying, but the bill didn't make lookout mountain federal land beyond the jurisdiction of the state. It is specific to overriding land use and condemnation.

And even then, there are plenty of top secret facilities run by government contractors that were inspected by local authorities during their construction and are now closed to anyone that doesn't have clearance to enter.

The bill specifically identifies land use and condemnation. But surely the tower and associated construction still has to meet all applicable building codes. <snip> . I would say it just allows them to build it in the required manner without regard to their non-conforming land use status.

This is at the heart of the point I raised earlier - that the county might still have scrutiny over construction details like setbacks and guy wires. There might still be hoops to jump through, but ultimately the plans couldn't be denied, they might just have to be modified until they meet a county planner's and inspector's interpretation of the building code.


I believe that the FCC permit is approval for a license holder to build a transmission facility to operate on the approved frequency at the approved power. I don't think it covers construction details that would be handled by local building code. For example, LCG would still have to get county approval, permits and have inspectors on site to run power to the location of the new support building. I also assume that inspectors would look at the concrete they pour for the buiding, and so on.I agree with this assessment.

The intent of S.4092 is to get past the local zoning issues, not to give broadcasters free reign to erect towers and buildings that do not meet building code requirements and possibly be unsafe.

Maybe some do not understand the process. Whenever any company or person wishes to build/construct something a permit is usually (almost always) required (example - you want to erect a fence - gotta get a building permit, etc). A permit can not and will not be issued if it violates the zoning for that property (example, you cannot construct a retail store on property zoned residential, etc). If you still want to proceed with construction even though it's not zoned for that construction you need to get the zoning changed. That means going before the zoning board and that means public hearings etc. Another example - if you wish to build outside of the building envelop (ie wish to intrude in setbacks) then you need a variance and must go before the zoning board.

LCG2 wanted to construct TV Transmission facilities on property that was not zoned for for that use (their property was zoned something like residential/farmland but I forget the exact phrase). They therefore went before the Zoning board and (after many years) it finally was approved (the 2nd time around). After approval SCARE went to County Court to stop construction because they successfully argued that the County Commissioners did not follow County rules with regards to one or two small points. SCARE did NOT argue about construction details such as setbacks etc. The proposal that went before the County Commissioners met all building code requirements or they would not have approved it.

Now, if SCARE wants to argue (for example) that the setback is not enough then they will have to get JeffCo to change County ordinance and while that is possible we do not know what will happen because that will affect everyone seeking a building permit and not just LCG.

FWIW, Fox has the proper zoning for their facilities which is why they were able to get on air relatively quickly. Even still, SCARE has hounded them and fought tooth and nail against anything they wanted to do (and have done) but their arguments have fallen on deaf ears because KDVR's property is zoned properly. Now that S.4092 has removed the zoning impediment they are going to face a significantly bigger uphill battle for LCG2 because they have lost the main argument in their cause (which was ZONING).

Does a secret Govt base like in Aurora,Yeah, I've been there too. Real secret, huh?

But even if local inspectors came around during the initial construction (I'm skeptical), there has been additional construction and remodeling ever since that the local inspectors can only guess at using Google Earth.

Anyone in the military? Does a secret Govt base like in Aurora, just allow any Joe-Bob Aurora permit inspector to inspect and approve all the secret electronics?I'd say in most cases the shell of the building itself is not classified and it only becomes classified once the spook stuff is moved inside and setup. I'd say inspections were complete and a C/O issued well before any classified stuff was put inside the building.

I'd say inspections were complete and a C/O issued well before any classified stuff was put inside the building.Yes, but now that all the 'secret stuff' is inside, do they call the Aurora permit inspectors to come every time they want to make an electric power change or add/remove a wall?

Yes, but now that all the 'secret stuff' is inside, do they call the Aurora permit inspectors to come every time they want to make an electric power change or add/remove a wall?

This is probably not at all related to the situation on Lookout, but it is my understanding that Lockheed Martin has agreements with the county to have their buildings inspected by a third party that has the proper security clearances, and these inspection results are handed over to the county.

-Wabisabi

New story in the Golden Transcript...

http://goldentranscript.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2007-01-18&-token.story=184283.112112&-token.subpub=

My favorite quote is Ms. Carney:
Now it's a matter of what we can do to best deal with this.Sounds and smells like defeat to me. Burrrr, I thought I'd never see this day!

New story in the Golden Transcript...

http://goldentranscript.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2007-01-18&-token.story=184283.112112&-token.subpub=

My favorite quote is Ms. Carney:
Sounds and smells like defeat to me. Burrrr, I thought I'd never see this day!

Great Link

New story in the Golden Transcript...

http://goldentranscript.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2007-01-18&-token.story=184283.112112&-token.subpub=

My favorite quote is Ms. Carney:
Sounds and smells like defeat to me. Burrrr, I thought I'd never see this day!

:D :D

"...The smell of Victory....."

...and this years Golden Globe for worst acting in a fictitious melodrama goes to Deb Carney for her leading role in the production "The Digital Broadcast Nuclear Winter".

<the lights dim - clip begins to play - we see a close up of a bloodshot eyed Deb Carney - in a choked up voice she finally speaks > "The act of Congress was like dropping a nuclear bomb on our communities" . <the crowd becomes nauseas>.

'a nuclear bomb'? OM*G! Yeah Deb, a digital TV tower is the exact equivalent of a nuke.

PU-LEEEEAASE! This is as gross of an exaggeration as I've ever read, even coming from a hump like you. What false analogy can we expect next? Maybe Marv is the new Hitler? Please do us all a big favor and just ST*U!

You guys wanted pictures...

This is an 'official' pic of the start of construction of the LCG tower!!! They are prepping the ground and clearing the ground, looking for stakes planted during the design stage.

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/towerstart.jpg

How come all the radiation up there didn't melt the snow? :D

Re-reading S4092, maybe we should hope they leave the tallest analog tower standing (unused?)forever so future permit applicants can build too....

That whole article was great.
David Bird also lives on Lookout Mountain, about 100 yards from a cluster of towers. He has lived there for nine years; his wife for about 20. Bird's major concern — like other Lookout Mountain residents — is radiation.

A graduate student from Colorado State University once measured the amount of radiation entering Bird's home, and took a blood sample. The radiation hardly registered and his blood was fine.
As if there was any doubt...

Another great telling quote was...A graduate student from Colorado State University once measured the amount of radiation entering Bird's home, and took a blood sample. The radiation hardly registered and his blood was fine.Now the truth comes out, one of sCARE's "CSU Radiation Study" researchers did this as part of their study. And the result was: "RF hardly registered". I wonder if those results ever got recorded and included in the final analysis? I'm thinking not.

I think that's a very generous interpretation, and I'm not sure it's right. It's getting kinda silly for me to continue to argue here because I'm not a real estate lawyer, but I'll persist :p

Then it all ends up downtown at the US Courthouse.

It law looks fairly concrete to me, but this is the US of A and everything under the sun can be litigated.

The question is one of money at this point. Does Golden and Jeffco want to spend millions of dollars to defend its claim of sovereignty? I understand the county's dog in this fight because it's county land. I don't understand Golden's claim at all. If the county commissioners want to blow my tax money, they have to deal with the political aftermath in the next election, in which two seats are open. People are far more concerned with plowed streets, I think, and this issue will be dead in six months.

Besides, maybe by the time the next El Nino hits on top of global warming (or as I prefer it, catastrophic climate change), the radiation from the new tower will help melt all the snow, eh? :p

This is probably not at all related to the situation on Lookout, but it is my understanding that Lockheed Martin has agreements with the county to have their buildings inspected by a third party that has the proper security clearances, and these inspection results are handed over to the county.

-Wabisabi

Why does that make the hair on the back of my neck stand up? Let's ask Dr. Strangelove. :p

It appears that Deb Carney fancies herself an expert on electromagnetism because she read a book by Blake Levitt. Have a look at her review on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ACFWKFG0SA0YR?_encoding=UTF8

It appears that Deb Carney fancies herself an expert on electromagnetism because she read a book by Blake Levitt. Have a look at her review on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ACFWKFG0SA0YR?_encoding=UTF8

What a find! You can't hide from Google.

It appears that Deb Carney fancies herself an expert on electromagnetism because she read a book by Blake Levitt. Have a look at her review on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ACFWKFG0SA0YR?_encoding=UTF8Anyone going to write a rebuttal?

Are there really 10,000 affected residents on Lookout Mountain? If so, thats 10,000 people that willingly moved into an area that had existing towers. Did none of these people do any due diligence, like checking if those pre-existing towers emitted radiation and presented a potential health hazard before moving there?

It appears that Deb Carney fancies herself an expert on electromagnetism because she read a book by Blake Levitt. Have a look at her review on Amazon.com:

"Our entire community of 10,000 mountain residents has greatly benefited from the clear, concise information about this form of radiation contained in this book."..."We highly recommend this book."
We? Got a mouse in your pocket Deb?

Ok, class, are we comfy? Just lay on your blanket, and I'll read you a story. Please remember, Cookies & Milk when we're done.

Once upon a time, there were these very bad people(some think that they were Martians). They built these large ugly towers so that they could kill us(with radiation). And, worst of all, they are ruining our views....
zzzz....
zzzz....
Just remember class, these very bad people(Martians) are still plotting to kill us, so before you crawl into bed, please wrap your heads in foil, we still have a chance.
....jc

Anyone going to write a rebuttal?

Are there really 10,000 affected residents on Lookout Mountain? If so, thats 10,000 people that willingly moved into an area that had existing towers. Did none of these people do any due diligence, like checking if those pre-existing towers emitted radiation and presented a potential health hazard before moving there?


Well, I have a rebuttal for Ms. Carney...to quote Bugs Bunny (in reference to Marvin the Martian)

"What a marooooon!"

About a month ago I came upon the Jefferson County telecommunications zoning plan on their website. Has anyone here looked it over?

--- CHAS

Anyone going to write a rebuttal?The tower itself is all the rebuttal I care about.

About a month ago I came upon the Jefferson County telecommunications zoning plan on their website. Has anyone here looked it over?
What's interesting is this:

http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/jeffco/planning_images/tele-update/tele_update.gif

Gasp, a Tower?
....jc

I get dizzy looking at that.

Here's another. I just did a search of the JeffCo site and came across this.

http://www.co.jefferson.co.us/jeffco/planning_images/tele_com_plan.jpg

I get dizzy looking at that.Yeah, that must be what Deb and Al mean by being "in the beam".

I get dizzy looking at that.
Mistress Deb:

You are beginning to feel sleepy...
You are under my power...
Repeat after me 'Towers are Bad!'
'The radiation will kill you!'
'They will fall and crush your head(both if you have two)'
'TV's are Bad!'
'Snap, snap...Time for Cookies & Milk!'


b. Tower and antenna consolidation.
f. Locating towers near similar uses or near industrial areas.
So what's the fuss?
....jc

Tower Work Underway!
Work is now in progress on the consolidated Digital TV tower on Lookout Mountain. With the project under way in early 2007, Front Range viewers can expect the new tower to be built and operational approximately 15 to 18 months from the start of the building process. This website will continue to follow the progress of the Lake Cedar Group tower.

Guess this means that the consolidated tower will now never transmit analog signals. Thus they will stand until the analog switch is turned off. Then pieces of the tower can become RF soaked collector items.
If only they would have listened to the BCC back in September 2003 it would never have come to this.

With the project under way in early 2007, Front Range viewers can expect the new tower to be built and operational approximately 15 to 18 months from the start of the building process.
Yup. And that statement makes it glaringly apparent that the LCG never has been in any hurry to spend the money to bring Full Power Digital TV to the Denver Area.

In other words, "We'll play around in the dirt during '07, as we need to look like we're actually trying to get this thing done. But, we haven't budgeted any real money until '08."

Actions speak louder than words, and their only action has been, inaction.

As much as I blame sCARE for this debacle, I wonder how complicit LCG has been.
....jc

This message brought to you by sCARE a subsidary of LCG...

Guess this means that the consolidated tower will now never transmit analog signals. Thus they will stand until the analog switch is turned off. Then pieces of the tower can become RF soaked collector items.
If only they would have listened to the BCC back in September 2003 it would never have come to this.

18 months = July of 2008. I thought the cutoff was Feb. 2009?
You are right about September 2003 though. I can't believe it has been that long since we all thought we had "won".

As much as I would like top see it sooner myself, that is not, IMO, an unreasonable construction schedule. Also, with such a short amount of overlap time, I would have to question whether or not 7 and 9 will buy full power UHF equipment or just keep the low power going until they can turn on full power on channels 7 and 9

18 months = July of 2008. I thought the cutoff was Feb. 2009?
You are right about September 2003 though. I can't believe it has been that long since we all thought we had "won".
Why go through the trouble of putting analog on the new tower for such a short period of time. As a pay back for the delay let the old towers stay as long as possible.
Then again maybe LCG may want to do both the construction and then the destruction while the heavy equipment is already on Lookout. This probably makes more sense in the long run and is probably cheaper to get it all at the time.
I do get the idea their plan is to follow through with the original proposal.
JUST GET IT DONE.

As much as I would like top see it sooner myself, that is not, IMO, an unreasonable construction schedule. Also, with such a short amount of overlap time, I would have to question whether or not 7 and 9 will buy full power UHF equipment or just keep the low power going until they can turn on full power on channels 7 and 9
I think it also depends on how agressive they want to be.

IMO, the first channels to have full power digital will be KCNC and KTVD - the two stations which have elected to keep their current digital frequencies after 2009. Once the tower is complete, they can just switch digital transmission from RP to Lookout.

KUSA and KMGH, on the other hand, are keeping their current analog frequencies, so the new transmitters they install on the LCG tower can't be used for digital TV until they cease analog transmission - on or about February 2009. They can't move their existing digital transmitters from RP to Lookout without an extended outage, and it's hard to believe they would buy a THIRD transmitter for such a short period of time.

Posted by oxothuk:
IMO, the first channels to have full power digital will be KCNC and KTVD - the two stations which have elected to keep their current digital frequencies after 2009. Once the tower is complete, they can just switch digital transmission from RP to Lookout.

KUSA and KMGH, on the other hand, are keeping their current analog frequencies, so the new transmitters they install on the LCG tower can't be used for digital TV until they cease analog transmission - on or about February 2009. They can't move their existing digital transmitters from RP to Lookout without an extended outage, and it's hard to believe they would buy a THIRD transmitter for such a short period of time.

IMO, I also think KCNC and KTVD will be full power once the tower is complete. But I'm not too sure KUSA and KMGH will continue to use RP until analog shutdown. One would think they'd like the extra coverage Lookout would give them, even with low power transmitters.

Won't they have to buy new transmitters for their digital signal on channels 9 & 7 anyway or can they remove the ones on the existing analog tower and somehow turn the power down for digital (since I think their ERP will be about 25 kW instead of the 316 kW they now have for analog? If they can, won't there be some down time with this scenario, which I'm sure they can't afford (lost adv. revenue, disgruntled viewers)? Also, couldn't they temporarily use KCNC's and KTVD's RP low power transmitters during a move of their low power transmitters to Lookout? That would seem very likely for KUSA since they own KTVD.

Bottom line for KUSA and KGMH is they have to avoid down time. How will they do that?

As kind of a side note, does anyone know what the stations that aren't digital yet plan to do? KPXC (59) comes to mind.

KUSA and KMGH, on the other hand, are keeping their current analog frequencies, so the new transmitters they install on the LCG tower can't be used for digital TV until they cease analog transmission - on or about February 2009. They can't move their existing digital transmitters from RP to Lookout without an extended outage, and it's hard to believe they would buy a THIRD transmitter for such a short period of time.The RP transmitters are pretty small. The FCC isn't exactly beating these stations up to get on air but I seriously doubt they'll let the stations continue low power transmissions until they shutoff NTSC so they can repurpose their analog transmitters.

Let me try to clarify my reasons for predicting a late transition for KMGH and KUSA.

Yes, I believe KMGH and KUSA will buy new transmitters to install on the LCG tower. While I'm sure they would love to re-use the transmitters they currently have for analog, I doubt they could afford to be off the air for several days to move them.

But even after installing those new transmitters on the LCG tower, they can't use them for digital until they turn off the old analog transmitters, because they are on the SAME FREQUENCY.

Moving their existing digital transmitters (16,17) from RP to a temporary installation on Lookout doesn't make a lot of sense.
(a) it would require an extended outage on digital to make the move, which none of us would like
(b) it would require another filing to the FCC
(c) it would cost of a lot of money
(d) the signal would still be low-power, just from a better location
(e) the benefits, such as they are, would only be for a period of less than one year.

Mike's scenario of having KUSA move the KTVD transmitter from RP would avoid the downtime on digital, but would still have all the other disadvantages I listed. And I doubt that KMGH could reuse the KCNC transmitter from RP, since the frequencies are so different (35 vs. 17).

Buying new transmitters (16,17) for a temporary installation on Lookout would be better for us, but would cost even more money and I just don't see them doing it for such a short term period. Good grief, remember how long KMGH tried to get by with their coathanger installation on the studio building?

The saga of Denver DTV is a legend in the industry, and for that reason I don't see the FCC pressuring KMGH and KUSA to do any more than what I predict.

On another topic, I too have wondered what KPXC is going to do. There was a time when they had a few shows I didn't mind watching. But since their transformation into "i" last year, they may be too preoccupied with making the next payroll to worry much about DTV.

If I've been following correctly, I understand that the antennas are tuned for a certain frequency and the exciters are configured to work at a certain frequency. But here's my question...

how well would the antennas work if the exciter was configured to generate a digital transmission on a different frequency until the cutover was ready? Would they not work at all? Would they work at a diminished range? Would they require more power?

I was wondering if KMGH and KUSA could install the equipment they needed and then run it at their temporary digital frequency until they were ready to shut off analog and then reset the exciters to run at the current analog frequency.

If I've been following correctly, I understand that the antennas are tuned for a certain frequency and the exciters are configured to work at a certain frequency. But here's my question...

how well would the antennas work if the exciter was configured to generate a digital transmission on a different frequency until the cutover was ready? Would they not work at all? Would they work at a diminished range? Would they require more power?

I was wondering if KMGH and KUSA could install the equipment they needed and then run it at their temporary digital frequency until they were ready to shut off analog and then reset the exciters to run at the current analog frequency.

It depends on the amps they have, or so I've gathered from pros like kenglish. Some of the old amps don't deal well with the ATSC exciters (and these are probably what the stations are using on the "current" analog transmitters).

Honestly - I'd expect the stations keeping their old analog channels to not move from RP until they turn on the new ones on Feb 17 2009. Depending on several factors, they MIGHT move the analog broadcasts to the new tower until that time. Stations that are changing channels - there is no real reason not to move once their facilities are ready on Lookout.

I've also heard that you don't transmit using an antenna designed for a different frequency - certainly inefficient for power transfer at best, perhaps even an outright danger.

I just found that I receive a strong signal on digital channel 11, which I believe has its tower somewhere near Ft. Collins. I'm receiving it with a UHF-only yagi. Trouble is, my E* receivers won't lock on to it and my Accurian receivers display a picture, no sound, and lock up if I try to change channels when tuned to channel 11-1.

I suspect some type of PSIP problem. My E* receivers are treating the signal just like KTVD's before KUSA took over and fixed their PSIP info. Does anyone know what this channel broadcasts? It looks like 11-1 is Univision but there apparently are subchannels that may have other programming. I presume this is an SD operation only.

In playing around, I also noticed that I receive channel 14-1 on all of my receivers but I don't get any picture or sound, just a black screen. I believe this channel is also Spanish language. Either it's my problem with my receivers or there aren't many Spanish-speaking viewers out there if these two stations haven't fixed their problems.

Anyone else have similar experiences with these two channels?

Well personally if I still lived back there and was told by any station that they would not begin to broadcast high power DT until they can move their NTSC transmitter to the new facility (ie, after Feb 17 09) I would bitch loudly and clearly to the FCC. That is just plain unacceptable. They have obligations to meet and just about every other TV station in the country has met those obligations and for any station to decide to hold off because they want to save cash is not only an insult to every resident in their DMA but also to every other TV station that has been on the air for years by the time LCG2 is completed. Sorry that pig just ain't gonna fly. If you read my posts from years ago you'll note that I have little respect for the way the FCC has handled this whole Lookout mess but even I don't think they'd let the stations slide on this.

I think it entirely reasonable to expect they'll borrow or rent or buy the necessary equipment to get on the air ASAP after LCG2 is completed. Anything else is kick a in the groin. You all might want to hire Deb to sue their asses if that comes to pass......

[QUOTE=milehighmike]I just found that I receive a strong signal on digital channel 11, which I believe has its tower somewhere near Ft. Collins. I'm receiving it with a UHF-only yagi. Trouble is, my E* receivers won't lock on to it and my Accurian receivers display a picture, no sound, and lock up if I try to change channels when tuned to channel 11-1.
QUOTE]

I don't have any problems changing channels with my H20, but I posted this same thing about a week ago and no one has said anything. 11-3 is a re-broadcast from Florida... go figure.

The RP transmitters are pretty small. The FCC isn't exactly beating these stations up to get on air but I seriously doubt they'll let the stations continue low power transmissions until they shutoff NTSC so they can repurpose their analog transmitters.
From what I've seen, I would expect nothing less. LCG will come up with some excuse(mountainous terrain, labor shortage, steel shortage, terrorism, endangered species) to delay broadcasts until 02/17/09. KOAA in C/S was able to delay any digital broadcasts until, what was it? August/September 2005?(6 months ago).

I think it entirely reasonable to expect they'll borrow or rent or buy the necessary equipment to get on the air ASAP after LCG2 is completed. Anything else is kick a in the groin. You all might want to hire Deb to sue their asses if that comes to pass......
Personally, I've given up on 'expectations'. "We The People" don't matter any more. Only $$$ does. Sad, sigh, but very true.

I expect everything to 'fall into place' just before 02/17/09. Anything earlier would just be 'wasting' $$$.

After all, this 'digital' broadcasting business, is just a PITA for the broadcasters. I would guess that the '15 to 18' months estimate, is just another Line-O-BS to pacify us and the FCC.

After all, OTA viewers are something less than 5% of all 'digital' viewers, and 'digital' is not their cash cow yet.
....jc

In playing around, I also noticed that I receive channel 14-1 on all of my receivers but I don't get any picture or sound, just a black screen. I believe this channel is also Spanish language. Either it's my problem with my receivers or there aren't many Spanish-speaking viewers out there if these two stations haven't fixed their problems.

Anyone else have similar experiences with these two channels?

I used to receive channel 14-1 pretty well here, but tonight it's black. Sounds like a station problem...

-Sarah

I expect everything to 'fall into place' just before 02/17/09. Anything earlier would just be 'wasting' $$$.
I also believe that once the general public learns that their free analog is going away and that the government may not provide everyone with free converter boxes, that February 2009 date may get pushed out even farther.

I also believe that once the general public learns that their free analog is going away and that the government may not provide everyone with free converter boxes, that February 2009 date may get pushed out even farther.

I hope you aren't proposing that everyone gets free converter boxes. There is barely enough money ($1.5B) to fund one or two for each of us poor folks.

If every home waits until 2009 to buy a new TV or STB, this thing really will get stretched out forever.

KOAA in C/S was able to delay any digital broadcasts until, what was it? August/September 2005?(6 months ago).Do you mean 18 months ago, or do you mean 2006?

I used to receive channel 14-1 pretty well here, but tonight it's black. Sounds like a station problem...-SarahI think there is (and has been for a long time) something different or wierd about the datastream for 14-1. My LG4200A tuner has no trouble locking onto their signal and finding the bitstream to display a program guide, but it can't seem to find the the video or audio. My HTPC with a Fusion 5 card, on the other hand, can display their picture just fine.

Did I miss a post or is 9News not in HD? My wife was watching this morning and it was 4:3.

Do you mean 18 months ago, or do you mean 2006?
Sorry Gakon, my bad.

It was last year 2006. And, they had no digital signal, what so ever, until that time. They were just an example, as I am not able to receive any C/S digital signals.
....jc

Did I miss a post or is 9News not in HD? My wife was watching this morning and it was 4:3.
Perhaps they were doing some updates to the equipment and HD was down

The game looks great so far on 31, I don't think I've seen a SD shot yet. Maybe pushing the color a bit though - could be my TV.

31 looks good here as well. Color looks right on.

I hope you aren't proposing that everyone gets free converter boxes. There is barely enough money ($1.5B) to fund one or two for each of us poor folks.
I think funding a converter box for anyone is stupid, IMHO.

However, now that Democrats are in control of both houses of Congress (and may well be in complete control of the federal government by cutover date) I wouldn't be surprised to see a demand for free converter boxes for anyone with an NTSC receiver go forth by then.

Last night I noticed all the main channels, KWGN, KCNC, KRMA, KMGH, KUSA, KTVD & KTVD all had working guides. Don't know how long it will last.

I'm not sure that many people will even be able to use a box.

If MATV systems aren't upgraded to carry the OTA 8VSB signals, only the folks with "rabbit ears", and the ones who have their own (stand-alone) homes will be able to use them.

Hope the government doesn't have to start buying all us poor people Cable or satellite service :) .

Now, there's a thought...........

Make the Cable and satellite companies offer free locals to everyone who asks for them. That would solve all the problems, including Cable's "if it's free to the viewer, why should the Cable company have to pay for it?" campaign.

I think funding a converter box for anyone is stupid, IMHO.

However, now that Democrats are in control of both houses of Congress (and may well be in complete control of the federal government by cutover date) I wouldn't be surprised to see a demand for free converter boxes for anyone with an NTSC receiver go forth by then.I just don't think this issue has all that much traction. In fact, I'll be surprised if the $1.5B already allocated for STB subsidies gets used up.

My experience has been that if you put the word "Free" in front of just about anything, folks will be lined up around the block to get one. I think the demand may even exceed the supply.

Remember the lines when the gov't gave away old cheese?

Uh HM - it's NOT "FREE" - it's "Subsidized" - big difference. Box will cost ~$100- $200, citizen will get $50 coupon from government per receiver.

Yeah, but the box they're planning on giving people is supposed to be some bottom of the line SD only box. Which should only cost about $50.

Yeah, but the box they're planning on giving people is supposed to be some bottom of the line SD only box. Which should only cost about $50.Still, $1.5B is enough to buy 30 million boxes like that. I don't think there will be anywhere near 30 million people who want them.

No one knows exactly how the "subsidy" will work, yet.

We do know that "qualifying households" (whatever they are) will be eligible for one or two coupons that will count as $40.00 each, off the cost of each "subsidized" box. No one knows who will be handling these boxes yet. The coupons are supposed to be assigned to each recipient, to prevent trading or selling them (keeping them from becoming "cash" or "scrip").

The boxes can only output SDTV at 480i. But, the prototypes have many bells-and-whistles. They have composite video and left/right audio, as well as RF Channel 3 and 4 modulators.

They are supposed to have state-of-the-art chip sets (to allay the fears of broadcasters, who felt they might not work as well as the expensive boxes, making users less likely to use them). They also will operate with a SmartAntenna (another $80-100 for the outdoor unit), meaning they can be used in multi-site markets, and in areas prone to adjacent channel and FM BCB interference. They both do full EPG. The RCA includes an IR-Blaster and timers, so it can control a legacy VCR.

Set-up seems to be pretty fool-proof....Select your language, select regular or "smart" antenna, press "OK" and sit back for a few minutes.

All along, the Government has insisted that all of this competition is supposed to "tame" the Cable industry and it's rate increases. Without these boxes, I'm afraid most limited-income people people will simply call the Cable company in February 2009, and sign up for basic analog service. Then, what is to stop Cable from increasing their rates? And, when Cable goes all digital, those "legacy" sets will all need a rented Digital cable STB.

Without them, will many people have to forego their medications each month, in order to pay their Cable bill? Will the next "transition" in America have to be to "subsidized healthcare" so they can continue to pay their TV bills?

Maybe this is a good tradeoff in the long run.

I think funding a converter box for anyone is stupid, IMHO.

However, now that Democrats are in control of both houses of Congress (and may well be in complete control of the federal government by cutover date) I wouldn't be surprised to see a demand for free converter boxes for anyone with an NTSC receiver go forth by then.


I really don't want to be partisan here, but I'm pretty sure that the subsidy program was initiated by the republicans.

New homepage on the sCARE website...

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

It says LCG has asked Judge jackson to dismiss. sCARE responds with"CARE and the City of Golden are responding and exploring options." Which translates to... We're screwed and haven't a clue what to do.

New homepage on the sCARE website...

http://www.c-a-r-e.org/

It says LCG has asked Judge jackson to dismiss. sCARE responds with Which translates to... We're screwed and haven't a clue what to do."But please don't dismiss until we get back to you".......(and under their breath uttering "in a hundred years or so").

Howdy Folks,

I am just writing to inquire whether anyone has an projections for the Boulder area after the new Lookout tower is installed. Will shadowing continue to be a problem with the new location of the tower?

I currently live on the corner of 13th and Alpine and receive decent coverage for my 20" analog TV. I have a large antenna on my condo roof (roughly three stories high). I used to get the big three (NBC, CBS, and ABC) like a good dream with all of them coming in clear. Now only channel 9, 15, and 25 and 59 come in clear, with the Spanish channels crystal clear. Now I just fight between using bunny ears to get a better picture for the big three and PBS channel 11.

I suspiciously think it's my neighbor who is sucking up all the good beams with his unbelievably enormous rig. If you're ever in the neighborhood you should check it out: 1341 Alpine Avenue. It must be illegal. The thing looks like it's about to buckle at any second.

I was really just writing to inquire whether the new tower would help out reception in my area, but I thought I heard Boulder still may be SOL.

Thanks for all your help,

tmb7w

Howdy Folks,

I am just writing to inquire whether anyone has an projections for the Boulder area after the new Lookout tower is installed. Will shadowing continue to be a problem with the new location of the tower?

I currently live on the corner of 13th and Alpine and receive decent coverage for my 20" analog TV. I have a large antenna on my condo roof (roughly three stories high). I used to get the big three (NBC, CBS, and ABC) like a good dream with all of them coming in clear. Now only channel 9, 15, and 25 and 59 come in clear, with the Spanish channels crystal clear. Now I just fight between using bunny ears to get a better picture for the big three and PBS channel 11.

I suspiciously think it's my neighbor who is sucking up all the good beams with his unbelievably enormous rig. If you're ever in the neighborhood you should check it out: 1341 Alpine Avenue. It must be illegal. The thing looks like it's about to buckle at any second.

I was really just writing to inquire whether the new tower would help out reception in my area, but I thought I heard Boulder still may be SOL.

Thanks for all your help,

tmb7wMy first response would be to go by your current analog reception of stations that broadcast from Lookout Mountain (4,6,7,9)

The fact that you are getting 9 now is a good sign, especially since they will be using the same frequency (9) after analog shutoff two years from now.

Still, you say that you used to get 4 and 7 analog, but don't any longer? That doesn't make a lot of sense since those stations are all on Lookout also.

Also, I don't think someone else's antenna is going to "suck up" the waves and hurt your reception.

I suspiciously think it's my neighbor who is sucking up all the good beams with his unbelievably enormous rig. If you're ever in the neighborhood you should check it out: 1341 Alpine Avenue. It must be illegal. The thing looks like it's about to buckle at any second.
You must be jmartinko's neighbour! :p

I think he was kidding about the "sucking up" part....

Are you getting interference on the low-band VHF channels (2-6)? You might have electrical interference, perhaps from bad lights, air conditioners, etc.

If someone had a huge antenna, overshadowing the existing one (say, within a few feet), it could cause some interactions. If so, you ought to move them apart, or share one antenna....maybe it's time to turn it in to a mini-MATV system.

Also, check all your connections for cleanliness. Some oxidation in the connectors will cause a loss of lower frequency channels.

I suspiciously think it's my neighbor who is sucking up all the good beams with his unbelievably enormous rig. If you're ever in the neighborhood you should check it out: 1341 Alpine Avenue. It must be illegal. The thing looks like it's about to buckle at any second. Can you take some pics and post them here for us all to see?

Yeah, post a pic. We need to see if it's one of our own members. Does it look like these?

http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/Tims.jpg
http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/dishfarm.jpg

My first response would be to go by your current analog reception of stations that broadcast from Lookout Mountain (4,6,7,9)

The fact that you are getting 9 now is a good sign, especially since they will be using the same frequency (9) after analog shutoff two years from now.

Still, you say that you used to get 4 and 7 analog, but don't any longer? That doesn't make a lot of sense since those stations are all on Lookout also.

Also, I don't think someone else's antenna is going to "suck up" the waves and hurt your reception.

I should have been more clear. I do currently get channels 4 and 7 with the rooftop antenna, but the signals used to be much clearer than they are now. Sometimes I will get a better signal for these channels using bunny ears than the rooftop antenna.

Tonight, I'll go home and manually record my signal quality and post it to the group tomorrow. I'm sure most people aren't interested but I'll do it anyway.

Yeah, post a pic. We need to see if it's one of our own members. Does it look like these?


Well, let me back up a bit. The rig next door was an enormous rig until I saw these pics. It's nowhere near as elaborate as the ones in the picture.

It's simply an Outdoor HDTV/DTV/UHF Analog Antenna atop a very high pole. I guess the fascination of my part comes in because of its height, lack of taught guy lines, and a clear buckling half way up the pole. The next high windstorm could easily have that thing snapping off and flying somewhere into the neighborhood.

You must be jmartinko's neighbour! :p
;)
Can't be me, my gear is sucking up all the energy in northeast Boulder. It's amazing that Oxothuk can get anything as he is only about 6-10 blocks away. I may have to go adjust a few things to see if I can shut him off too.
:D

tmb7w
Unless your antenna is close to his (within about 10 feet) I wouldn't expect any 'interference'. As for the wind, if it didn't buckle in that wind we had about two weeks ago, it should be safe. If you are still worried, I hear Deb Carney is an expert on antennas and electromagnetic radiation, and as of a few weeks ago, suddenly has a lot of free time on her hands.

I should have been more clear. I do currently get channels 4 and 7 with the rooftop antenna, but the signals used to be much clearer than they are now. Sometimes I will get a better signal for these channels using bunny ears than the rooftop antenna.If that's true, perhaps your rooftop antenna has rotated slightly in the wind and simply needs to be reaimed towards Lookout.

I should have been more clear. I do currently get channels 4 and 7 with the rooftop antenna, but the signals used to be much clearer than they are now.
Ok, back to the original question - I think your chances of receiving digital signals for the major networks once they move to Lookout are EXCELLENT, given that you have a watchable picture for analog now. The beauty of digital is that you only need "enough" signal and once you have enough the picture will be crystal clear.

It's amazing that Oxothuk can get anything as he is only about 6-10 blocks away. I may have to go adjust a few things to see if I can shut him off too.But you forgot that I am closer to RP. I'm the one one that's gonna shut YOU down. :)

NOTE:

Please be so kind to keep POLITICS off the site. Their are many other sites for comments of a political nature.

Thank you.

Please be so kind continue this thread in the following new thread....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=793003

(Just needed to help the server with all the posts on one thread.)

Reminder, you will need to re-subscribed to the new thread to continue to receive update if you would like.)

Thank you.