Thanks, Mark. I sent him an email and will do so in the future. It is not cool to have friends over watching some great HD on CBS and then have the sound go crappy. A great picture is not enough.

Make that 14! Got my 4228 + 7775 amp set up, 17 comes in nicely!

Guess now we're the 'Fortunate Fourteen'.

One odd thing however, I don't pick up the strongest signals for 32, 35, or 18/80 with the antenna pointed directly at the Republic Plaza. If I aim the antenna 15-20 degrees westward, those stations come in stronger. Thought it might be multipath, but there are no large "reflectors" (tall buildings, etc.) in that general direction.

Hello Denver gang,

I have been reading and learning from your posts. I set up a RS 2x bow-tie on my roof and I'm able to get all except 17. I have not been able to get a lock on 17, so I don't know what if any signal I am receiving. Does KMGH broadcast during the day like the other stations or only when they have something in HD to show? The other stations come in with a strength between 80 & 90. Can I expect to be able to get 17 with this set up or should I consider a better antenna? I am SE at Yale and Monaco. I did lock on station 69?? Any idea on this station.

Also, Does any one know if you can paint an antenna? A little camo color would blend this thing into my roof.


Thanks,

Tom

Normally 17 would be running 24/7 but it so happens that for a few days here they're shutting down in the daytime for some work they're doing on the roof. I believe it's up and running as of this post though.

What HD receiver do you use Tom?

Congratulations Jetlag on getting 17! And to you as well, Tom, and welcome!

The problem with KCNC is that they have no one monitoring the HD broadcast on 35 because they don't generate any revenue from it. The 35 equipment is off to the side from the channel 4 equipment, which is constantly monitored. There is a plasma screen on the wall showing the 35 broadcast, but it certainly wasn't a priority for the techs in there. Also, from what I saw when we were there, the techs in the broadcast room weren't monitoring audio by listening to it. There were audio indicators and lots of blinking lights, but there was no audio playing.

Hey Thanatos - we haven't heard from you for awhile. Any word on whether the audio problem can even be tracked down without audio monitoring in the control room?

With attending so many Avs games lately ( lucky me! ), I haven't watched any HD at all. It is good to hear that more are able to receive the various signals. I was at a Soundtrack store the other day and a very nice salesman actually knew some of our situation and was letting customers know what was already available in HD locally. He even asked where the guys home was and gave him pretty good advice on setting up the antenna, etc.

I was surprised, but pleasantly so.....

Jeff

Just wondered if anyone else caught the KUSA morning news at about 6:10 this morning. I just heard the tail end of a story in the business news that apparently was about a report saying there will be 4.5 Million HDTV's in use by the end of the year. The reporter also mentioned that HDTV is not available in Colorado yet due to a 'controversy' over the tower locations (or soemthing like that). I am not sure those were his words as I wasn't listening closely until it was too late. Did anyone else hear the story and can you let us know what was actually said? It is so rare I hear the subject mentioned in local news that I wasn't really paying attention.

Last night, I watched the end of Living with the Dead on KCNC. Good news and bad news on the sound. The good news is that it was never tinny and therefore so bad that I had to go over to SD off the satellite. But, the sound had crackling noises and would cut out on occasion. The last 30 minutes, though, the sound was fine. Go figure! I will send an email to KCNC again about this.

Here's a link for today's RMN (rather short) story on the final blow to the Eldorado tower saga.

RMN Story on final denial on the Eldorado Tower (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_1119942,00.html)

Gregg Moss, business reporter for 9News, was the one making the comment around 6:10 this morning. This marks the 2nd time Gregg has mentioned HDTV on the morning news since our meeting at KCNC.

jm -- I don't think you missed anything at all. Here's the gist of what was said:

Today, May 1st, is the deadline for commercial stations in the US to be broadcasting in the new HDTV format. None of the stations in Denver will meet the deadline due to controversy over where the new towers should be built. Regardless, there are 4.5 million HDTV sets expected to be in use in this country by the end of the year. (paraphrased)

In the background, they were showing 16x9 sets with a variety of shows playing on them -- I remember seeing the HDNet logo and Shrek among other things. Of course, in ratty old NTSC, they didn't look so good :)

I'm cautiously pleased that at least "HDTV" is getting the occasional snippet on the news now. With SoundTrack showing HDNet instead of a stretched 4x3 DVD on their 16x9 sets and HDTV getting the odd mention here and there, I'm hopeful that demand will start to climb.

Of course, a new tower on Lookout Mountain certainly couldn't hurt things either :)

Today, May 1st, is the deadline for commercial stations in the US to be broadcasting in the new HDTV format. None of the stations in Denver will meet the deadline due to controversy over where the new towers should be built. Regardless, there are 4.5 million HDTV sets expected to be in use in this country by the end of the year. (paraphrased) KDVR might take exception to this. True enough, they don't broadcast much worth watching, and they don't do HD, but they have met the FCC deadline.

Then again KMGH, KRMA, and KCNC are all broadcasting low power and have met the FCC deadline (they are counted) so Gregg Moss should go back and do his homework. The biggest station in the area to "miss" (more like totally ignore) the deadline is his own station - KUSA. Not very factual reporting I think....

RANT MODE ON -
You guys should all be boycotting any non-H/DTV station in this area - why the hell is anyone watching KUSA - tune into a more digitally friendly station.

why the hell is anyone watching KUSA

Tin-foil Stanley Cup. Drew Soicher's sports report consistently cracks me up. :D

OK, here we go (flame-retardant suit on) -- I think if corporate NBC had more than just Jay Leno in HD, KUSA would've had more incentive to put up a low-power transmitter by now. If CBS wasn't pushing HDTV (and pushing it hard) do you think KCNC would be up on 35 already? I think a lot of the pressure on them was corporate CBS (being a CBS O&O station) and us viewers who saw the "brought to you in HDTV by [whatever set manufacturer is footing the bill this week]" on almost every single show in CBS primetime.

While low-power may technically count as being on the air, with most of the metro area unable to get the signals from KMGH, KCNC, and KRMA (or at least not without a LOT of pain with huge antennas), I don't think that counts. Anyone that gets the analog signal at home should be able to get a digital signal by today. Period.

I will agree with you, though, that KDVR gets (almost) full credit here. Even though DTV isn't HDTV, no matter how many "high resolution Fox digital widescreen" banners they put on their shows, the local station here is pushing through the best that corporate Fox has. The only reason I had to change "full credit" to "almost full credit" is because of the outage last week. Do you think any station here would let their analog broadcast go dark for a couple days?

I do agree, though, that we should be supporting those stations that have at least made some effort to get a digital signal on the air. That's why I TiVo anything I watch on KUSA -- so I don't watch the commercials that pay their bills. On KCNC-DT, I watch the commercials. :)

dr_mal
Thanks for the update. No wonder I thought I missed it all, it was just a really short news item. I guess we shouldn't get too down on the news for being somewhat inaccurate by saying "none" of the stations in Denver are on the air since this was on KUSA. I am sure they would not be interested in advertising the fact that the FOX affiliate IS on the air and the PBS and CBS and ABC(? so I hear ?) are also on the air. Kudos to them anyway for at least mentioning the subject.

Edit:
OK, so I wrote my reply this morning and forgot to hit post. I guess I should have read the thread again as I see my comments are 'old news' already. At any rate, I still am glad to hear them comment about HD on any station, even if it is self serving. I am not sure I agree with Geof on the lack of HD being part of the reason they are not on the air at KUSA though. Leno every night is in fact a well done HD show, Crossing Jordon on Mon. and NBC has done some specials such as the Olympics, this year's Triple Crown, and various NBA basketball games, so there is programming available to them. Starting in the fall, it sounds like much of NBC's eveing programming will also be in HD, so sorry Geof, I don't let them use that as an excuse. I think it is strictly a $$$$$$$ decision.

Originally posted by dr_mal

While low-power may technically count as being on the air, with most of the metro area unable to get the signals from KMGH, KCNC, and KRMA (or at least not without a LOT of pain with huge antennas), I don't think that counts.

Oh I think it counts. It may not count to anyone that cant receive them though, naturally. But when it comes to KDVR, KCNC, and KRMA theres hundreds of thousands of people that could get those channels quite easily if they wanted to. Sure, on this board it seems like everybody seems to live somewhere other than right smack dab in the middle of town, but just to put some conservative offhand perimiters to it, I think most everybody between I-70 to the North, 470 to the South and West, and 225 to the east can get all 3 of those without much effort at all. Thats ALOT of homes.

But since here we have guys from Brighton, and Roxborough, and Boulder, and Loveland, and Longmont, and Lone Tree, and Greeley, and Broomfield and no more than that it seems to be from inside the perimiters I noted, it makes it seem like virtually "nobody" can get the channels without major league hassles.

I tend to agree that KCNC is probably on the air digitally because of the CBS primetime lineup. That's probably also a factor why KUSA is not. Then again, NBC does do some other things in HD (like the Olympics for example) that we've missed out on.

Regardless, I get almost perfect reception of the NTSC channels off of Lookout but you know what - the digital channels, even at 480i, are better than any NTSC stuff. We'd all benefit from SDTV from KUSA. Furthermore, if KUSA was broadcasting digitally it would put pressure on the NBC mother-ship to provide more HDTV programming.

At least KCNC/KRMA/and KMGH are trying which is more that I can say about KUSA. Don't fool yourself, KUSA is not on the air because they don't want to be. They are snubbing their noses at us and at the FCC and hiding their real motives and intentions behind the Lookout (S)CARE situation. We should be boycotting them. Period. 9 news cares my a$$. Corporate greed cares.

I am not saying that low power should get stations off the FCC hook and I agree than many viewers are not served by the low power signals. It's clear we need high power and it's past due. That said, if you cruise on over to the FCC site you'll notice that they count low power stations as being on the air and that is what I was referring to.

All in all I'm getting to point where I really don't care anymore. I am not going to get worked up over this issue anymore. The stations will reap what they sow. I will never be a huge viewer of KUSA and they can drop the hell off of the face of the earth for all I care. I watch a bit of KCNC DT and bit of KRMA DT and not much of any other station. There's a whole big (DBS) broadcast world out there, some of it commercial free, which I greatly prefer. If the local stations are too financially shortsighted to see H/DTV as a means to gain back lost viewers then they can go to hell. Terminal stupidity should be, well, terminal.

That said, I have pretty much decided to take the approach of other forum members and lay back and watch this unfold. I will not be collecting any more petition signatures nor carrying the HDTV flag. I don't think I'll even write anymore letters. If the stations don't care neither do I.

jm said,

I am not sure I agree with Geof on the lack of HD being part of the reason they are not on the air at KUSA though.I didn't say this and I don't agree with this either.

Starting in the fall, it sounds like much of NBC's eveing programming will also be in HD, so sorry Geof, I don't let them use that as an excuse.John, I think you need glasses :) I didn't say this either....

Can anyone get channel 21 from Ft. Collins? it's live, although it's only FOX.

Geof
As Rosanna Rosanna Danna used to say, "Nevermind". Serious brain cramp. Not sure what I was reading but whatever it was I guess it was read too fast. I see we are in fact in agreement. I see it was dr_mal who made the comment, "OK, here we go (flame-retardant suit on) -- I think if corporate NBC had more than just Jay Leno in HD, KUSA would've had more incentive to put up a low-power transmitter by now" which is what set me off on my own rant about available NBC programming. I can't walk and chew gum at the same time so why should anyone expect me to 'work' and read the AVS at the same time. :D
Since dr_mal put on the flame-retardant suit, I guess I should have been more careful as the flames seem to have 'bounced off the suit' back to the source. Ouch!
:(

I can't get a lock on KFCT-21. (I am getting a signal though) I don't want to move the antenna just yet after i've fine-tuned it for KCNC/KRMA.

I might though, just to piss-off KUSA, and let them know that we'll ALL start watching ANY new DTV stations ouside Denver that are Pro-HD!

Are you listening KUSA!!!!!!!

I think the fact that NBC doesnt have more HD probably does play somewhat of a role in even a lack of a low power setup. And lately, even when NBC has done some more things in HD it's only because HDNet is providing the hardware. Which I guess to those that get HDNet it's kind of a moot point aside from Leno everynight and also that not every single NBC HD hoops game has actually been on HDNet. Though the upcoming Triple Crown will be on both again.

Originally posted by pookers
Can anyone get channel 21 from Ft. Collins? it's live, although it's only FOX.

Nope, I can't get it to lock in. But I do get KDVR with a strong signal, so who knows??:confused: Is channel 21 at full power?

What cable provider do most of you use? Up here we have ATT, who is one of the cable CO's now committing to HD by 2003. I called the local ATT broadband (970-668-8998) and they said they're shooting for a few months after the first of the year.

What does this mean to the great tower debate?

I hope now that local HD will be available, the local station will begin producing their own HDTV - e.g. local sports, local news, skiing events etc...
-Tim

Cable??? What's that? Oh, yes, that's the thing that runs from my 12 foot dish and my 3 foot dish into the receivers next to my TV. I haven't used a cable co. for TV since the 80's.

As for what cable will do here, that may still be an issue without the tower. Depending upon where they are located, many cableco's use large log periodic antennas for OTA signals at their head end for their local channels for their customers. Obviously unless they are close to the low power sites they can't get it any better than you can. Someone asked when we were at KCNC and I think they said they had a direct fiber out to Direct TV or Dish (??) for their signal, but that was the only direct feed they ran from town other than to Lookout. I may have misunderstood that, so maybe someone else can comment. As for KUSA, since they don't appear to have plans to be on the air in any format, there would be nothing to feed for NBC or KUSA.

Maybe someone knows for sure, but I think the ATT Broadband head for much of Denver is over by Mile High (I won't call it by that other Investment Co. name) Stadium, which probably has easy access to the Republic building and likely even KMGH from that area unless they are blocked by a building. That is a low area in town, so there may even be some small building between them and KMGH even though they are close as the crow flies. As for outlying cableco's, maybe someone else can comment on other areas. Since I don't have cable, I don't even know for sure where Boulder Cable or ATT here in Boulder get their signal, but I would bet it is OTA. Anyone else know?

KCNC has a direct fiber connection to DirecTV, but dishNetwork picks them up OTA. I don't recall them mentioning whether cable companies had a direct fiber connection or picked them up OTA. My recollection as well is there was only one fiber connection. We all looked a little surprised when the KCNC engineer told us dishNetwork picks them up OTA and he kind of shrugged and said something like "that's what they wanted"

So for all the people in the Lookout Mountain area who say towers are no longer needed with people using cable companies or dishes, it appears that most cable companies and dish providers (with the exception of DirecTV) depend on the towers to get their signal to start with.

Thanks for the input dr_mal. That's how I remembered it too, but since I didn't use the services, I didn't make a mental note for sure who had the fiber. I don't know what the other stations do.

As for the cableco's, I don't know if anyone does this here, but I remember several local cableco's in the suburban and rural Philly area when I lived there used OTA antennas for the local channels there as well. In the two areas I lived in, there were a lot of channels from Baltimore, Lancaster/Harrisburg, and NYC that also could be picked up on the same channels by rotating log periodic antennas (used to do it myself to get around blackout games and have more options for network games etc.). Those companies used specially purchased single frequency, single channel dipole array antennas to pick up the Philly channels and cut down on multipath and 'out-of-band' interference from the channels on nearby frequencies in the other locations. In all of the cases I can remember though, the companies in my areas out there always used OTA for their signals too. I think that is a pretty common practice in most places, although someone in the cable business might be able to comment further.

Did anyone see the front page of the business section in the RMN Friday? It had a story on Echostar but the picture they included was of a Directv dish being installed. Caption on the picture also was about Echostar. I'm sure some folks at Echostar were none too happy. Sometimes you wonder how these things are missed. :D

Keith,

I saw that too. I had to glance a couple of times to make sure I wasn't missing something. I'm guessing Charlie made a call sometime yesterday! :)

I hope now that local HD will be available, the local station will begin producing their own HDTV - e.g. local sports, local news, skiing events etc...Tim,
It's gonna' quite a while for much of anything in HD locally. Only KRMA has HD editing equipment. The other stations only have playback gear at the moment. Hey, we're lucky they're even on-the-air in low-power HD at all.
(Oh, let's all not forget that KUSA won't even spend that money)

The other stations only have playback gear at the moment.

...with one (minor?) exception -- KCNC's new studio cameras are HD-capable. Once they get the rest of the gear, a flip of a switch on the cameras and they'll be able to shoot HD. Apparently they've had to recently replace their studio cameras, so they made sure the new ones were future-friendly.

Hi guys...

The program "Aleutians: Cradle of the Storms"
# 101 will be fed in HD on Wednesday, 5/8 at 20:00 & 23:00 (MT).

The frequency will be on DT2A (RX-IF=1379).
It will be broadcast on KRMA DT-18.

-John

Last night I had a 66% signal strength on KMGH-DT Channel 17.

Mike,
Not bad considering your house is about 2 blocks from 6th and Lincoln.
(kiddin') ;)

Ernie

Last week my signal strength on KMGH-DT was below 50% and sometimes down to 45% and unwatchable

When KMGH is broadcasting (they have been off the air most days doing something) I get a constant 40. When the wind blows, the level varies a little lower and I get some pixelation. I was hoping they were working to increase their power, but it appears not.

You guys see the picture of Lookout, and Deb Carney holding the flag protesting in from of the Taj MAHAL in the paper this morning?
Scary...

Here's the picture. When I first saw it, thought it was going to be a story about someones puppy getting run over (from the expressions).

*edit* Can send you a higher res copy if you PM me with email address.

Yeah, I saw the picture also. I assume that the picture was from yesterday. What was the significance of the protest? There wasn't a meeting yesterday was there?
Anyway, did not look like a very impressive crowd, at least the picture did not reflect that.

How could we have been so blind? Can you imagine the cancer risk in a puppy exposed to 30 years of television signals? BTW, do puppies really live that long? Wouldn't he miss those Alpo commercials?

Jetlag-thanks for the download. I may use it as a desktop reminder for a while. :rolleyes:

I am not sure what the protest was centered around, but it may be that (S)CARE and Deb Carney's tactics are starting to get transparent and tiring even to some of the folks that live near the towers. The low turnout is surprising (much like turnout at an AVS meeting--:D ), especially when you consider several million people for a hundred miles in most directions would be living fully exposed to "the main beam"--as Deb calls it! Don't we all realize the danger?

OK, enough of my insensitive humor. On the serious side, I sent a note to Pete McNally yesterday asking for an update on the status of the application. It has been real quiet from that direction for a while. We also have not heard anything regarding KRMA's position on the two applications. I hope we will hear some news soon.

A couple of days ago I sent the following email to 9News Listens:

Hello:

9NEWS Listens. I hope so.

I purchased an HDTV in January and have been enjoying it tremendously. As you are well aware, NBC is dead last in HDTV programming. Assuming that NBC starts creating more programming this fall in HDTV, are you going to make a serious effort to get your digital transmission going? Even ABC (KMGH) has a low power transmitter atop their building, which I can receive with a UHF antenna on my roof.

I am finding myself now watching more CBS shows, especially, due to their commitment to HD. Nevertheless, my family's favorite station and network is KUSA and NBC. MANY of my friends and neighbors have seen the quality of my HDTV and are now thinking of buying a new HDTV AND getting OTA signals. I am convinced HDTV is going to take off over the next year (ask Greg Moss)!!

My plea is for KUSA not to be left out and in last place. Your excuse of waiting for zoning on Lookout Mt only works so long. Do what the rest of the stations have done and put up a transmission antenna SOMEWHERE until the issue is resolved. The Republic Building would be fine. Share it with KCNC.

As the best network station in Denver (and one that my family wants to watch more than any other), please make every effort to get HD transmissions going before the fall shows start. And, tell whomever at NBC in NYC that creating programming in HD IS an investment for the future. I would do this myself, but the NBC web site does not lend itself to sending general comments like this!

Thank you in advance for putting some real effort into HD transmission and programming.


Ane here is a response from their Director of Engineering, Don Perez. My email was forwarded to Dave Kaplar, Randy Barber and Roger Ogden:

For up to the minute news and weather go to http://www.9news.com
Thank you for your note. KUSA will broadcast HDTV at the point we can receive zoning approval to build a joint facility with several other area broadcasters. We have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours on this topic, but do not have a solution at this point. The effort continues... Our HD channel will be 16.....thank you for your interest. For more information on HDTV please visit http://lakecedargroup.com/. We encourage you to contact the Jefferson County commissioners with your support for HDTV in Denver.

Thanks for watching 9News.
Sincerely Don Perez,
Director of Engineering

While I am new to this group, it is hard to fathom KUSA. let alone NBC, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours for HD. It appears their excuse, despite my note, is the "zoning" issue. Maybe when NBC announces some primetime shows in HD for the fall, I will respond with more questions about their "commitment" and excuses.

I am sure you all know a lot more about this than I. Thought you might like to see their response, tho.

I think everything that has been said by KUSA officials in the last few years indicates that they have no intention of broadcasting HD from anywhere other than Lookout, and they are obviously in no hurry to do that. While I feel sorry that they have spent "hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours on this topic, but do not have a solution", it is also true that KRMA, KCNC, and KMGH (at least to a degree), have spent that same amount for the LCG, and a LOT MORE in addition to get on the air in a low power mode. I guess that should put some perspective on who REALLY can claim to be the 'best station in Colorado'.

Dennis, FWIW, at the meeting we had with the LCG last month, KUSA made it clear they will not consider a alternative low power solution until or unless the application for the LCG tower on Lookout is rejected. Given the amount of time it will take to process and rule on an application that has not even been submitted yet, it is safe to say your family will not see any HD from KUSA before the fall season of 2003 at the earliest. Just be happy you can at least see KMGH DTV, most of us can't even do that much. KCNC and KRMA at least can be received by most of us, and even KDVR has spent the money to get DTV on the air even though their 'mother ship' refuses to send them any 'real' HD.

Does anyone know if KCNC is experiencing HD troubles? Channel 35 is showing the standard analog feed during CSI right now...I've e-mailed David Layne...

They just flipped the switch! Thanks David!

Just got fixed....

And no audio problems tonight on KCNC! That's gotta be a first, and I'm really hoping a trend!

I heard back from Pete McNally on the status of the applications. Here is the primary comment in the letter,

"We are responding to questions from the last meeting, preparing for the next one, and pulling together the parts of the application we can at this time.* The next community meeting will be near the end of the month and our submittal shortly thereafter.* Thanks for your continued interest."

He promised to do a better job of keeping us up to date as news breaks.

Did anyone try watching Star Wars EP1 on Fox last night? I was curious to see how the picture was, and although I got indications of a signal, the picture was black. Anyone else see that or should I re-adjust my antenna??

KDVR is bad. Their aspect ratio has been off for a week or two. They don't have it in 16x9, but rather 4x3, which obviously causes stretch problems.

Brian

I watched the first part of Star Wars EP 1 just to see the picture. The aspect ratio is messed up and I have to stretch to 16:9 using my TV. When I do that, it is OK. The picture was OAR and not too grainy, but nowhere near HD.

The sound on CBS has been pretty good for several days. However, at times, there is a clicking (clipping??) on some of the louder sounds. When this is happening, sometimes the picture jumps slightly and the sound becomes totally clear. I have not reported this to David Layne.

DennisMileHi said...
"While I am new to this group, it is hard to fathom KUSA. let alone NBC, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours for HD."

Lawyers & consulting fees/time? Certainly nothing fruitfull :(

PBS HD Heads-Up!

The series Evolution will be fed in HD on Tuesdays starting 5/14-6/4, at 19:00 (MT).

The frequency will be on DT2A (RX-IF=1379).
It will be broadcast on KRMA DT-18.

-John

Fellow HDTVer's.

I am having a Fox problem. On DirecTV and KDVR 31 I receive the sound. On KDVR-DT I do not receive the sound. I was wondering, does anybody else have this problem, or can anyone give me an idea of what to check. All other HD channels on the DirecTV and OTA are fine. Thanking you in advance.

Doug

Doug - what receiver are you using? If you can get a picture your receiver is also getting audio data (although it may not like the data it is getting).

Geof,

I am using the Panny STB with a Denon receiver. I just wonder what could be different about KDVR-DT, from all the other channels. Do they broadcast in a different format ?

Thanks

Doug

I don't think they use a different format but their timing may be marginal??

Are you using the digital output or the analog output from the Panny? Do you have the same problem on both sets of outputs???

Now onto the question for the rest of the group - are there any other locals with Panny receivers and do you have problems with KDVR Audio???

I also have a Panny stb (TU-DST51 connected to a Yamaha receiver). I turned on KDVR-DT the other day to see if they had their progressive scan encoder fixed. I didn't hear any sound either (through my digital connection). But since they were only broadcasting 480i there wasn't any reason to look for a solution to the problem.

Michael

Originally posted by dr_mal


...with one (minor?) exception -- KCNC's new studio cameras are HD-capable. Once they get the rest of the gear, a flip of a switch on the cameras and they'll be able to shoot HD. Apparently they've had to recently replace their studio cameras, so they made sure the new ones were future-friendly.

I find this very interesting and tantalizing! :D I wonder when we might see some local HD material? Any speculation?? Do you guys have a good KCNC e-mail address for such issues?

Of course, I'll have to wait for ATT Cable, which is actually in reach now... :D

-Tim

I have not been receiving sound on Channel 32 since they have changed to 480i. When are they going to get the 480p up and running again?

Fellow KDVR-DT listener's ?

Thanks for the response. I only came to you after I had called the engineers at Fox to see if they were experiencing any outages/problems, which of course they were not.

Wahlin, I think you are right. My sound went away about the time they moved to 480i. And Michael you are right, I found no need to scramble for a fix since 480i is what is being broadcast anyway.

Thanks again. I am going to follow up with KDVR.

Doug

I haven't tuned into DT31 much lately but I did try it for a few minutes last evening (just after 10 and again about 20 min later). All was fine with the sound at that time....I have a Mits HD STB....

Yeah, thats strange that it would just be the Panny's. I still get sound on both my Dish 6000 and Mitsu as well, not that I ever tune in for any length of time since they're back to having format "issues".

On a different note, it's nice to see the leaves back. I still cant believe it, but now that they're back I get 17 far better than I did all winter. Last fall, my signal strength became far more erratic after the leaves fell and at first I didnt attribute it to that, but then after assuring myself all other things were equal I came to the conclusion that it must be the problem. Over the winter I could only get reliable reception when it got really cold out.

Now that the leaves are mostly out I can watch 17 reliably again. It still doesnt make sense to me as one would suppose it would be the other way around. Oh well.

Dan said,
On a different note, it's nice to see the leaves back. I still cant believe it, but now that they're back I get 17 far better than I did all winter.

The reason is simple.....the signal leaves the antenna more efficiently :)

Sorry for the poor pun - I could not resist.....

Dan:
Just to add an opposite note. Since the leaves are coming out, my 17 signal is becoming a little more more erratic. I can still get it OK when the wind doesn't blow, but, in the wind AND rain, forget it. I thought about trying the antenna up higher, but it is not worth the hassle. Just hope when I want to watch something on ABC, the wind is not blowing!

Leaves, no leaves, wind, no wind, snow, no snow! Doesn't matter, still can't see a thing on 17 here in Boulder. Thanks KMGH.

I talked with engineering at KDVR to find out when they would be broadcasting in 480p. They are receiving encoders in the next couple of days and then installing them. The install is done at the downtown offices.

As for the sound issue on 31.1, I have tried changing the input to analog, PCM, stereo, Dolby Digital and none of them work. It is a very strange problem as it appears to only be on the Panny's and all of my other satellite and OTA stations work fine. The receiver also recognizes the signal and indicates that it is receiving Dolby Digital. I guess I will just wait until they install the new encoders.

Doug888, I don't receive any sound on ch. 32 and have the Panasonic STB. Is that what you are reffering to?

Originally posted by Timwit


I find this very interesting and tantalizing! :D I wonder when we might see some local HD material? Any speculation?? Do you guys have a good KCNC e-mail address for such issues?

-Tim

If you want to see local HD material, check out "Spirit Of Colorado" on KRMA. AFAIK, that's the only local HD being produced right now.

As for KCNC, don't hold your breath. They said they have a LOT of other equipment to upgrade before their production path is all HD. They'll likely do what they did with the studio cameras -- when they need to buy new equipment, they'll buy HD-capable equipment.

I mentioned to one of their engineers when they took us on that GREAT tour a while back that KRMA just down the street has the necessary equipment -- maybe they could borrow it :) I think he replied that that had actually been talked about already among KCNC staff. The problem is that KRMA is making such great use of it by producing a weekly show in HD already that they don't have the bandwidth to loan their equipment to KCNC.

Wahlin,

Yes. I think there is a problem with the Panny set top boxes and receiving sound on KDVR-DT. There are at least three of us who have Panny boxes and receive the picture, but no sound. It could be coincidence, or we all have our receivers hooked up wrong, but I had no problem before when the broadcasts were in 480p. Others are able to receive the sound with Mits STB's. Very strange.

Doug

Not to change the subject from the Panny's, but I thought you all might like to check out this article on the MSNBC web site today. Denver is now in the national news, unfortunately it is for the fact that this area is a technological wasteland for HDTV viewers.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/752048.asp?0si=-

Now back to Panny talk...

Uh huh, wow. If theres only 400 in S.F. there truly must only be those of us on this board as viewers here in Denver. ;)

What was otherwise a decent article gets ruined by a major factual error like that. Thats not to say there's like 100 times that many but at the very very least I'm guessing you'd have to add another 0.

Just using the national average of 3 households out of 1000 with digital tuners you'd come up with 7500 for S.F. And there well could be more because in a market that big with so many digital stations running, the percentage would logically be higher than the national average.

The other error in the article:

Lake Cedar Group spokesman Fred Niehaus said one to two more community meetings are planned for May, but he expects approval and construction of the towers to be completed by the end of the summer.

That has to be a misquote - it should read approval FOR construction of the towers to be completed...we all know that it will take at least a year to build the tower and get things switched over.

On another note, I also have been having problems receiving KMGH. I no longer can pick up the signal with my RS bouble bow ties. Weather's getting too warm coupled with the leaves I would guess. Last night my wife gave me a really funny look when I pulled out the RS yagi antenna I still have and put it on the floor next to the tv. Was able to get enough signal (barely) with it to watch NYPD Blue last night. I wonder if the big 8 bow tie channel master antenna up on my roof would solve the issue...Is anyone using a preamp with the double bow tie, and does it do any good?

The part about it that got me was this: Lake Cedar Group spokesman Fred Niehaus said one to two more community meetings are planned for May, but he expects approval and construction of the towers to be completed by the end of the summer. Yeah right. If that happens someone can print out this entire thread (on decent paper) and I'll eat it.

The other interesting comment was this: “This has been driven by the feds,” Niehaus said. “The station managers are not doing this for any sound business reason.” I think we know what he's trying to say but I think the more correct version of this statement would read: This has been driven by the feds......The station managers are not doing this for sound business reasons.....(I dropped the word _any_ and pluralized _reason_).

Now, back to the Panny problem -
I recall a problem with some DTC-100's not being able to receive sound when they were first available. I think this was attributed to certain stations and those station engineers made some changes in the bitstream to allow the DTC-100 to lock onto the Dolby stream. I don't know if the new encoders will fix this but if not then KDVR may have to tweak the digits on their end to make this work.

From
Dan

Don't confuse me with facts...
My mind is made up. ;-)

"What was otherwise a decent article gets ruined by a major factual error like that. Thats not to say there's like 100 times that many but at the very very least I'm guessing you'd have to add another 0."

:D

Dan
You were expecting the 'facts' to be correct????? I am surprised. Actually when I read it I assumed it was a typo and they missed a zero. Either that, or they were referring to the number of viewers watching at 3 o'clock in the afternoon while they wrote the article.

I was more intrigued by the part that said:
""This has been driven by the feds," Niehaus said. "The station managers are not doing this for any sound business reason." The upgrades cost TV stations millions of dollars and only about 2 percent of American homes have television sets that can receive the digital signal, said Yankee Group research analyst Adi Kishore."

The comment obviously ignores the fact that it was the networks themselves who requested the additional frequency allocations in order to transmit HDTV. I suspected that quote originated at the 'sound business offices' of KUSA which has spent less for HDTV than any station in the Denver area. Of course, what Adi Kishore and KUSA ignore is that fact that if 85% of the homes in the Denver area had HDTV sets and compatible OTA receivers, they still would have nothing to watch thanks to the efforts of KUSA management. Not a great justification for our investments either! Guess that means those of us 'early adoptors' in this area have not used 'sound business practices' in our purchases either. I would wager, however, that I have spent a higher percentage of my own budget on HDTV than KUSA has of their budget. Fortunately we weren't mandated by the FCC to buy HDTV sets and stb's by November 1999 like KUSA was. Oh well, what else is new?

It seems that the LCG is going to have another community meeting around the end of the month. After this they will submit the rezoning application. If I remember the KMGH filing with the FCC, they expect to hold the first hearing 6 weeks after they file. Well, I called Jefferson County and they said that the next available hearing date for the Planning Commission is in September. So it looks like the "6 weeks" thing is a little off.

-Wabsabi

Wabsabi said,
Well, I called Jefferson County and they said that the next available hearing date for the Planning Commission is in September. So it looks like the "6 weeks" thing is a little off.Thanks. Doesn't sound like they have any chance of getting the tower constructed by next summer let alone this summer. I guess I won't have to contemplate what sort of "secret sauce" goes well with paper...:)

Well, looks like the only way were going to get decent HD here in Denver anytime soon is if we just build a damn tower ourselves.

Any takers? :p

I'd just like to say that there were no audio problems tonight at all on 35 during the season finale of CSI. Way to go David!

The FCC announced today a set of 'tough' penalties which will be placed against stations which have failed or do not have plans to meet the FCC requirement to be on the air with DTV. Unfortunately, according to the announcement, we can't expect any help here in Denver.
********
....the FCC announced that it had decided to give nine network-affiliated stations in the top 30 markets an additional six months to launch DTV operations, even though agency rules said large-market stations were supposed to launch DTV operations no later than Nov. 1, 1999.

Nonetheless, FCC officials said the stations cited technical problems and other factors beyond their control.

The nine stations are: WBBM-TV in Chicago; KTVT-TV in Fort Worth, Texas; WTVJ-TV in Miami; KMGH-TV in Denver; KCNC-TV in Denver; KUSA-TV in Denver; WFSB-TV in Hartford, Conn.; WTIC-TV, also in Hartford; and WVIT-TV in New Britain, Conn.

On a related note, the FCC said that network affiliates in the top-30 markets are expected to operate their DTV facilities at full power.
*******

The entire article is at:

http://www.emonline.com/news/web051602.html#fcc

You can also download a copy of the official FCC press release at:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-222561A4.pdf

I hope these links both work for all of you. The second is a pdf file.

Although we certainly owe a great amount of thanks to the (S)CARE folks for the FCC granting this delay to keep DTV in the dark in Colorado, I can't help but think that the LCG members deserve a LOT of the blame too for the lousy half a**ed effort they made on the first application a few years back. This almost makes me want to write the FCC again, but since our other letters have not done any good I don't see why complaining to them again would help now. On the plus side though, it appears that if they ever do get on the air (2004 or 2005), they will be required to go to full power. Of course by that time everyone in Denver with digital TV is likely to be watching HD and network HD from other sources.

Ok, so assuming that KMGH, KCNC and KUSA lose their DTV licences because they don't get on the air at full power, what happens here when everything goes digital? Do our stations keep their analog channels, or do we lose ABC, CBS, and NBC in Denver?

What's the worst case scenario here?

I didn't really expect to see any help from the FCC. They haven't really done much thus far to promote the conversion to digital and they don't seem to investigate the legitimacy of any claims made by stations as to why they need extensions. There are rumblings that they will begin to impose fines which may help the conversion (but not in our case). They haven't really made any effort to help our stations make a compelling argument as to why they need new digital facilities other than saying at some point all stations need to be digital. The "Powell plan" may even undermine the LCG argument a bit since an argument might be made that the local cable companies (with 750 MHz BW or more) will need to carry the digital signals (so why have towers).

Approval of the LCG "Plan B" is no sure thing either. In the best case JeffCo may approve the application by the end of the year and (S)CARE won't file a lawsuit against the approval (somehow I think that unlikely). In the worst case JeffCo again denies the application forcing this whole matter to remain unresolved for probably yet another 3 to 5 years.

The LCG seems to want our help but then they don't seem to want to share any information with us. Other than the pittance of info JM got (after he sent an email requesting info) we know nothing more than we did a month and a half ago. And still no word from KRMA as to why dual applications make sense. Personally I don't get the sense that they are really committed to this second application and if they are I guess they want a one way street where we help them all we can all the while being kept in the dark. I am not at all happy with the take, take take approach so why should I give anything to help them. I'm doing quite well by ignoring KUSA and KMGH and if HDNet 2,3 & 4 along with Discovery HD becomes available then I see even less of a need to rely on the local stations. Until they're willing to work with us I am not going to work for them.

Since the FCC has already stated that they are giving the Denver network stations a 'blanket' exemption due to the zoning problems, I would assume they would also be allowed to keep their analog licenses longer than should be allowed.

Worst case scenario????

That is strictly a guessing game, but my guess would be that Denver will be one of the last cities in the country (certainly the last city in the top 30 markets) to make the transition to digital and that transition period will not even begin for another couple of years here in Denver after the LCG application if finally accepted by Jeffco. Thank you notes should be sent to (S)CARE, the Jeffco Commissioners, and the LCG stations.

Worst case, worst case could have the Jeffco Commissioners deny the latest application for Lookout, and the FCC stepping into the issue and ordering Jeffco to let the towers be built on Lookout. That case could end up in the courts for many years and extend the delay here in town another 2 or 3 years. Frankly I don't think things will get THAT bad, but you never know. It is also possible that, given even more delays by Jeffco, the LCG stations could simply cease analog operations on Channels 4, 7, 9, (and maybe 6, and 20 too) and convert THOSE frequencies to DTV modulated channels, and give back the new DTV channel assignments to the FCC. That would be another 'doomsday scenario' since it would require the analog channels to be 'shut off' before a transition period to DTV was allowed.

Those are my own guesses. I am sure there are other opinions in the forum. Any way you cut it though, Denver will be among the last cities to have DTV, and it is likely to be ugly and make a lot of lawyers rich.

I think DISH Network should pick up the ABC and NBC digital feeds just like they do for CBS and the FCC should force KMGH and KUSA to grant digital waivers.

Then we who own digital TV sets could get the network shows. I am fortunate to be able to get KMGH-DT and KCNC-DT OTA. But this fall NBC is starting HDTV shows and KUSA does not have a digital transmitter operating even at low power.

Just my ramblings on the tower situation.

Right with you on that one HOT.

In fact, sent an email yesterday (my third), regarding this issue. Will post any reponse that I receive. Also, attached the info that JMartinko posted earlier in this thread as proof of our situation here in Denver.

Jetlag


"This is my third email to you regarding this topic. I have been a Dish subscriber for some time, and am getting extremely dissapointed with the nearly complete lack of HD programming on your service. When I initially signed up, your CS representative said you would be adding LOTS of HD programming.

Since that date, you have added a grand total of 0 channels. Oh, I know that I can get a few if I pay a lot extra, but for now, I still only get 1 HD channel, HBOHD, and I am paying for that. I don't even get the free demo channel since I have to use the 148 west location for HD.

Paid a lot more for the 6000 receiver + 8VSB card, not to mention 2 dishes than a basic setup would have cost, and for what, virtually NO HD!

Also, here in Denver, there is extremely little OTA HD. More accurately, a couple of the locals have temporary "low power" transmitters up, but I cannot receive them reliably at my house.

I am once again FORMALLY requesting that you grant me a waiver to receive the HD network feeds via my DishNetwork system.

I will attach a recent publication from the FCC that states that there will be NO additional HD broadcasting in the Denver area for some time to come.

If the waiver is not granted, I will terminate my service and switch to cable until this problem is rectified".

Tim

Uh, only CBS has granted permission for their HD signals to even be carried by Dish Network. Dish Network cant do anything if ABC, NBC and PBS dont want National feeds of their HD signals carried.

JM said "....the FCC announced that it had decided to give nine network-affiliated stations [three here in Denver, fully one third] in the top 30 markets an additional six months to launch DTV operations, even though agency rules said large-market stations were supposed to launch DTV operations no later than Nov. 1, 1999."

Wow! To me that says two things. Number 1 the FCC sees the mess here in Denver; Number two I am really shocked that it is only a six month extension. I read "blanket extension" later in the thread (I was reading up from the bottom) and thought it was blanket. But the six mo. only, gives me new hope, however superficially based.

I had glanced at a trade journal that had as its lead something like "Powell sticks with FCC deadlines" but hadn't checked here for the local details until tonight. To me the above all shores up my opinion on what an aberation we are here in Denver, and I do give the largest portion of the blame to sCARE.

-John

PS (read Edit): It also makes me think that they have not relaxed the standards, right? KCNC is listed as granted an extension, meaning their low-power stuff is worthless (as far as compliance) in the FCC eyes? Right?

Originally posted by JohnJr
To me the above all shores up my opinion on what an aberation we are here in Denver, and I do give the largest portion of the blame to sCARE.



Thats about the size of it John. We're a big time aberation and the FCC knows it. Thats why all the deadlines and extensions dont really mean anything at all. And they're not ever going to hold the stations themselves fully accountable. It's a situation where it doesnt matter what sort of plan is submitted, the people up there dont want anything to do with it so how can you hold the stations accountable.

It's obvious that it's still the best place to hold operations from the stations technological point of view but if you have 3 or 4 people who can simply say yes or no based on pressure from people who live there it ends up being a total impasse. Since it's not exactly a matter of National Security or anything at this point the FCC would just as soon hope it can be worked out by the parties involved. And maybe with this next go'round it will be. If not, then it seems to me that some 3rd party (FCC or otherwise) is going to have to get involved and not just watch how the situation is unfolding, but actually help solve it once and for all.

I mostly agree Dan. In my mind one of the keys to success is convincing those “3 or 4 people” that the new tower is a better alternate to the existing situation. This is something the LCG failed to do with their first app. The LCG is now presenting JeffCo and (S)CARE with an option - let us build a new tower and tear down the old while lowering the RF levels and improving the aesthetics OR we'll keep Lookout unchanged for the foreseeable future. I suggested this type of strategy over a year ago:
Posted by Geof on 02-02-01 07:26 PM:

I think everyone needs to understand that this will be a slow arduous task (I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic). The JeffCo board would rather not deal with this issue, CARE wants everything off "their" mountain, and the stations have no real leverage. I hope the LCG can make it more attractive for CARE to accept a new tower than to live with the current situation and/or somehow manage to turn public sentiment against CARE and the JeffCo board. Either way it’s going to be tough.

--------

Posted by Geof on 03-06-01 03:03 PM:


Let me repeat an earlier statement: The real issues are that the JeffCo Commissioners do not want to deal with this issue at all and are dragging their feet with head buried in sand (or some other locale) on all options and the (S)CARE folks want everything (yes everything) off of Lookout. They will of course reap a huge financial windfall when property values skyrocket if the Lookout towers were relocated. Meanwhile the local stations have no leverage to get JeffCo off of their dead asses and (S)CARE off of the scare campaign.

Once I again, I think the networks should threaten to leave everything on Lookout untouched. Or, alternately, build a common tower that cleans up the area (aesthetically and RF wise). They then need to educate the (S)CARE folks to say you can have status quo forever or we can do our thing and make this mountain more palatable in the long run if you let us build a modern facility. All of this is complicated by the fact that nobody trusts anybody - but I would be extremely disappointed in my County officials if I lived in JeffCo.

--------

Posted by Geof on 03-23-01 08:27 AM:

I believe the stations need to take an approach similar to what I outlined in my conspiracy theory. They need to send letters to JeffCo and (S)CARE stating they intend to stay situated on Lookout for the foreseeable future. That they intend to convert their existing equipment to broadcast digital when the time comes and that this transition requires no county approval (no antenna changes nor building changes, etc.) and that they intend to make no further improvements on their sites to reduce RF leakage or beautify the area. That they are legal non-conforming so they can and will operate in that manner for the next 50 years (or more). (S)CARE can do nothing to stop this. Absolutely nothing. Obviously that's not what we want, that’s not what the Front Range viewers want. That’s not what the stations want. Most importantly, I don’t believe that’s what (S)CARE or JeffCo wants. If they can convince (S)CARE/JeffCo that’s what is going to happen unless they can come to some other agreement then they gain some much needed leverage to get (S)CARE/JeffCo to the bargaining table.If, in the end, the LCG makes this case successfully I do not see how those “3 or 4 people” can deny this app. That said, if it is denied I think it will take a third party (i.e., the courts) to resolve this matter…..

You know, I've always appreciated the insight of the folks here as to whats going on (or not going on) with this issue because for whatever reasons I resolved myself back in '99 that this was going to become a quagmire that would go on for years. Because of that, I actually dont like talking about it too much because I' havent educated myself well enough or paid close enough attention to offer anything on the issue aside from general thoughts.

In one of your old posts you just quoted Geof, you used to term "get to the bargaining table". Which got me to thinking, there really hasnt been any of that yet has there? Has it really just been a situation where the LCG has gone to the county and said, heres what we want to do in regards to digital tv. So then the LCG submits a plan and the county says..no, this wont do. So the LCG comes up with another plan and again is told..no this wont do.

Why doesnt somebody that matters simply tell the LCG what they in fact *do* need to do then. Why doesnt somebody from the county say, look, we know about the federal mandate for digital television and we know that our county will be hosting the equipment. If you do it this way, you're good to go.

Instead (get ready for another silly analogy) it seems more like a case where lets say I owned a piece of property that the local Botanic Society had been using for a large garden for the enjoyment of people in the region. Then they came to me and said that they wanted to revamp the garden into a different configuration. So I say, ok submit me some landscape blueprints of the types and sizes of plants you want to use. So they submit some prints to me and I say nope, that wont do. Then I make them wait another 6 months to submit new plans. Once again, nope, that wont do. And so on and so on. At some point to prove that I really dont have a problem with the revamping if it's done right (i.e. to my liking) wouldnt it be smart of me to actually tell them of a way (incorporating some of their ideas too naturally) that will make it acceptable? Or is it no problem if I just keep turning them down simply figuring they'll get it right sooner or later.

I'm just finishing up a year and half long addition/remodel on the house here and I sure am glad when county inspectors come out to check on the electrical stuff and they have issues with how I did it, they actually *tell me* what it is that I have to do to make it right. It would prolly take me 10 years to get it right if every time I had them come out they just simply kept telling me they wont sign off on it, but wont tell me what I have to do to get them to sign off on it.

Nobody has made the LCG wait for their second submittal. I think they do have to wait some period of time between applications but instead they chose to file a lawsuit against the ruling the JeffCo Commissioners made for the first application even though it stood absolutely no chance of being overturned in the courts. To add insult to injury they dragged their feet on submitting documents to the court and eventually withdrew the suit. That was ‘00 and ‘01. They could have submitted a new app last year but did not and now it looks like June before they’ll file again. Oh they say they are working behind the scenes but they must be using 8 hour work weeks (good work if you can get it).

The LCG also says they have been working with the County Planning Board and I am sure that is true. It remains to be seen how fruitful that will be because they supposedly worked with the Planning Board during the last app which was shot down in flames by the Commissioners. Now then the question becomes are they working with the Commissioners? Are they working (or trying to work) with (S)CARE (behind the scenes)? Who knows. The LCG treats this as if state secrets are involved and choose not to discuss these sorts of things with us. I therefore conclude that if there is any "behind the scenes" activity on this it is not significant.

I think that it would be best to work with these folks as part of the process, not because of the process. I am not familiar with all of the various legal requirements but it seems to me that a "task force" consisting of a Commissioner (or 2 or 3) along with a couple of (S)CARE representatives and a couple of LCG representatives could iron out some understanding and agreements. The stations have had an arrogant attitude for 50 some odd years though so I don't think that level of cooperation is possible given the animosity that has resulted from said arrogant attitude.

Well again Geof, thanks for the refresher course. It's kind of funny because in all the other threads that deal with the issue on a more national scale when it comes to broadcasters dragging their feet I tend to side with them a little bit. I suppose thats why when it comes to Denver I dont feel strongly about it either. Course thats easy for me to say when I'm not missing any of the HD programming that I want to see.

It's just that I find it so pointless to be worried about whether broadcasters have their full blown digital signals up or not when even if they did nobody would be watching anyway. I mean obviously thats the case when even in the big markets where they've had a number of digital channels available for quite some time, nobody seems to care if they can receive them OTA or not. They're obviously waiting for cable, if they care at all. Just as shameful as it is that broadcaters have missed their deadline, is it that cable co's are only now starting to even talk about retransmitting digital channels (even in places like L.A. where they've had digital channels for years) when they've had almost 5 years to plan for it. This is a cable tv society and without their help the digital transition would never fly anyway.

Oh well, I'll check back with ya in May '03 and see if anything has changed. ;)

Originally posted by JohnJr

PS (read Edit): It also makes me think that they have not relaxed the standards, right? KCNC is listed as granted an extension, meaning their low-power stuff is worthless (as far as compliance) in the FCC eyes? Right?

One of the things I did find encouraging in the FCC press release was that low-power is not acceptable for the top-thirty markets:

"Further, the Commission clarified that its “minimum-facilities” Special Temporary Authorization (“STA”) policy regarding licensees who construct less than their authorized facilities will not be applied to network-affiliated, top-thirty television market licensees."

Without this, I might not be able to receive anything in Ft. Collins for many more years. It does turn the heat up on the Denver situation a bit, since previously the FCC seemed mostly to proclaim that stations such as KCNC & KMGH were "on the air". For most of us, that is hardly true.

Mark

Mark said,
One of the things I did find encouraging in the FCC press release was that low-power is not acceptable for the top-thirty markets:

"Further, the Commission clarified that its “minimum-facilities” Special Temporary Authorization (“STA”) policy regarding licensees who construct less than their authorized facilities will not be applied to network-affiliated, top-thirty television market licensees." This is step in the right direction. I hope it puts a little more oomph behind the stations efforts. In addition, the LCG can legitimately claim they do not meet any Federal mandate with their existing setups meaning that neither JeffCo, nor (S)CARE, can use those low power setups in any arguments against a new tower.

While I am generally interested in the stimulating discussions here in the forum, including the discussions of the nuances of the meaning of the FCC's comments on the STA stations in the top thirty markets, I am continually confronted by the simple fact that "nothing has been accomplished and nothing is currently being officially done" to get DTV and HDTV on the air here in Denver. Since the LCG wants to keep any 'behind the scene' effort (if there even is any) quiet, my only conclusion at the moment is that indeed, there is NOTHING BEING DONE. I read HOT's comments about the desire to see NBC and ABC on Dish, but it is pretty safe to conclude that will not happen since it only happened in the CBS case here because KCNC is O&O by CBS. There will be no additional OTA HD available in Denver beyond what we get now for many years. In my mind the FCC appears to have presented the stations here with an open ended excuse not to do anything until (S)CARE backs down or Jeffco commissioners grow a pair of'you know whats'. I do not see either of those things happening any time soon. We all know that the LCG application is NOT going to have smooth sailing through the commissioners. There are bound to be additional questions asked of the LCG and a ton of legal BS created by (S)CARE to slow up the application. The stations are now not even seen as delinquent in terms of the Nov. 1999 deadline. That does not provide me with much encouragement. Why does all this talk make me feel so gloomy? My comments are all so negative these days, I almost feel like I should not be posting my thoughts.

:(

My comments are all so negative these days, I almost feel like I should not be posting my thoughts.
There's a mushroom you can eat to [temporarily] fix that attitude :)

Seriously, I think it's gloomy too. Perhaps this is the 'darkest before the dawn' part but the LCG stations choose not to interact with anyone and have reverted to secrecy. Per my previous posting(s) one might conclude that this pisses me off. Well that would be a true statement. I want HDTV as much as the next guy but I am not going to be a lacky for the LCG. I will probably cut off my nose to spite myself but I would rather go without local HDTV then participate in a process where I know I'm being used. Quite frankly this sounds more harsh than I intend but it accurately reflects my sentiments. I am pretty much though promoting this cause and have ceased any petition or letter writing activities.

I can see where the arrogance of these stations is their own worst enemy.

Well the kicker to me is the whole deal is being held hostage by the actions of a few. We're not talking about the beefs people have in other areas where it's a situation of a broadcaster or 2 themselves dickin around not wanting to do whats right even though the rest in the market basically are.

It's a little hard to believe that we have a case here simply of the 5 or 6 "Network" affiliates all banding together and collectively deciding to prolong all this as long as possible. Sure, in hindsight they may not care that it's taken so long (in my view anyway based on earlier things I've said) but what should make this group more sinister than all the big stations in other like sized markets?

Or is it just a case where these folks were just more "lucky" in having a built in excuse as opposed to stations in other areas where virtually nobody really cares about where the tower(s) are and as such had nobody to point the finger at but themselves? Could certainly be.

Ehh, like anything else.. it's always something. Even if they had full power digital for all we know they wouldnt pass the HD through anyway like CBS in Phoenix or ABC in St. Louis. On the other hand since some are already doing it here in low power, I suppose they would in high power too. Hard to say sometimes whats the most aggrevating in this transition be it locally or nationwide.. aside from just about everything if ya think about it too much.

Let's see, so far maybe 300+ stations out of 1288 have converted? I think that's compelling evidence that broadcasters don't want to convert and let's face it, money drives that decision 99% of the time. IMO, the Lookout situation is extremely convenient cover for avoiding HDTV expenditures. Have the LCG stations taken advantage of that? With the exception of KRMA I am quite confident the answer is a resounding YES. Again, I harken back (harken back?) to one of my older posts - station managers are driven by Nielsen numbers and HDTV isn't on the chart, let alone the horizon. The result - no Nielsen points, no advantage, no money.

Clue number 2 as to why I believe the stations don't want to convert is the significant delay between applications. Pretty clear sign of foot dragging in my mind.

Yes, we're being held hostage by a few but I have yet to clearly identify who those few consist of. I believe the stations have gotten their just rewards for the fruits of their labors. The first application was incomplete when submitted, changed and modified during the process, and didn't meet all of the requirements of the JeffCo TLUP. There were some safety concerns in the final analysis that shot it down. One interpretation is that the JeffCo Commish's took advantage of "alleged" safety concerns to deny the application and that may certainly be true - we'll never really know. However, from what I can tell the second application is a far cry better than their first application so maybe, just maybe, the JeffCo Commish's were correct when they denied the application. As I posted before, I believe that when all is said and done the Commissioners will do the right thing - the question is, is Plan B the right thing?

Originally posted by Geof
Let's see, so far maybe 300+ stations out of 1288 have converted? I think that's compelling evidence that broadcasters don't want to convert and let's face it, money drives that decision 99% of the time. IMO, the Lookout situation is extremely convenient cover for avoiding HDTV expenditures. Have the LCG stations taken advantage of that? With the exception of KRMA I am quite confident the answer is a resounding YES. Again, I harken back (harken back?) to one of my older posts - station managers are driven by Nielsen numbers and HDTV isn't on the chart, let alone the horizon. The result - no Nielsen points, no advantage, no money.


Well theres alot of different ways of looking at the numbers. Over 40 million households out of 105 million have access to an average of 5 -6 digital channels available to them OTA. And those people flat dont give a damn anyway. When the broadcasters in the smallest markets see that nobodies bothered to buy in (and again, cable carriage is virtually non existent) in the big markets in the first 2 or 3 years of those digital channels' existence, what are they supposed to think? It's a big financial burden to undertake even if they had an eager audience, much less with no prospective audience for the foreseeable future

Sure money is the motivating factor, why wouldnt it be. But I reckon it costs just about as much for a station in Butte Montana to convert as it does a station in L.A. It's not like people are chomping at the bit to get these channels OTA (aside from a few thousand on internet forums) by already owning the equipment thats ready willing and able with the broadcasters saying..ehhh analog is good enough like it or lump it because I'm not spending a million bucks.

People keep saying, well Nielsen must start counting the numbers! Sure, start counting. Everybody in the country with a digital tuner and OTA antenna (or cable coverage) could all be tuned to the same program at once and the number of homes wouldnt even be 250k probably, so whats there to count?

Again, tell me, aside from "the principle of it" why it even matters if every one of the commercial stations had made the conversion by May 1?

To me it would just about be nothing more than a waste of electicity as it turns out.

I'm merely saying that stations across the country want to save cash and not convert. Ditto in Denver. As to your argument of why should they - well here's a pretty damn good reason - they HAVE TO. They may not like it but if they want to stay in business that is the cost of it. Period. I don't give a damn if the costs are the same in LA versus Butte. Irrelevant to me, the viewer. But why should a Butte viewer be discriminated against?

I also don't buy your repeated statements along the lines of who cares, only 1% of people are watching. Well Dan, the number would be 0% if zero stations had converted. Ya gotta start somewhere. It's simply not realistic to expect the horse to push the cart: HD material has to first be available to the average consumer before demand can be created. That means Hollywood has to make it and broadcasters have to show it.

I do agree that cable has to show it too. Cable has significant penetration in this country and by my math I don't see how 85% of the populace can be equipped to watch HDTV if 65% of them don't have access to it on cable. Fortunately that may start to be resolved if cable companies with 750MHz of bandwidth (or more) carry 5 channels per the latest Powell plan. Nonetheless, wanna guess how many Denver Front Range viewers will get to watch HD on KUSA via cable or OTA.? Yeah, that's right - a big fat 0.

I remember the situation in southern Colorado when color TV came out (I know, your saying I couldn't possibly be old enough to remember that, but I heard the stories from my elders) and even though color shows were available on the east coast and later in Denver there were several years when there were no channels showing color TV in Pueblo and Canon City where I grew up. Guess what folks, no one in those cities bothered to spend the extra money to buy color tv's. When channel 5 in Pueblo (NBC) finally started broadcasting in color, the sets proliferated. The problem is pure and simple, it is availability of HD programs, not digitial signals. Even in the cities WITH DTV full power stations, HD set sales are slow because other than some PBS shows, CBS and recently ABC there has been nothing to watch even IF you had a HD set. What is even worse, as most of us know, if you have a large HD screen and show and SD picture on it (ex. KDVR) it often looks worse than if you just watch a smaller SD set since you don't have to look at all the flaws exposed on the large screen.

Programming availability will drive sales and nothing else. Here in Denver, set sales will never really take off until there is something to watch. I expect next fall to help nationally since NBC will be adding HD programs other than Leno, and I suspect ABC will start to approach CBS in the amount of prime time shows (I hope that includes MNF). All that being said, set sales here in Denver will remain low. Let's face it folks, we all know how much work some of us have had to go to in order to get HD programming. Most of our homes have several sat dishes outside and huge UHF antennas hanging on our roofs, tons of cables inside and switch boxes and other stb gear coming out our ears. Most people will not go to that kind of trouble and do not have the technical understanding to do what it takes to get HD. Until they can simply use their cable box, or a pair of rabbit ears, most people will not bother to switch. As we also know, even if you do put in all the time and gear, there is still a limited amount of stuff to watch in HD anyway. That is why I get ill when I hear stations like KUSA saying they are in no hurry to get on the air because people are not watching HD anyway. Give us something to watch and the sets will sell.

"That's just my opinion, I could be wrong" (D. Miller)

I'm not sure how big Butte is (I know you most likely just picked it as a small market example) but the "big 3" are now up and broadcasting in Green Bay, WI. GB has a population of around 100,000 people, yet somehow they figured out a way to get through the politics, find some $ to make the switch, and just do it.

I'm with you guys, I'm just sick of a handful of folks (SCARE) dictating what happens - while our "big 3" sit back and let it happen. :mad:

-Mike

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Geof
[B]I'm merely saying that stations across the country want to save cash and not convert. Ditto in Denver. As to your argument of why should they - well here's a pretty damn good reason - they HAVE TO. They may not like it but if they want to stay in business that is the cost of it. Period. I don't give a damn if the costs are the same in LA versus Butte. Irrelevant to me, the viewer. But why should a Butte viewer be discriminated against?

Originally posted by Geof
I do agree that cable has to show it too. Cable has significant penetration in this country and by my math I don't see how 85% of the populace can be equipped to watch HDTV if 65% of them don't have access to it on cable. Fortunately that may start to be resolved if cable companies with 750MHz of bandwidth (or more) carry 5 channels per the latest Powell plan. Nonetheless, wanna guess how many Denver Front Range viewers will get to watch HD on KUSA via cable or OTA.? Yeah, that's right - a big fat 0.

Yeah, thats true. And even if KUSA and the other "Big 5" or whatever had full power digital signals up and running now, how many would be able to see them via cable? The same big fat goose egg. It's like cable, in Denver or ortherwise.. hasnt ever believed there'd be digital signals. They waited until 2002 to even start referring to the notion of carrying them. Again, even in cities and for stations that "did the right thing".

As always with this deal it's the chicken and egg scenario. Yes we truly need more than just digital channels as jm said, we need content too. Well again if theres nobody to watch the digital channels via cable or without spending 500.00 for a STB people arent going to do it even if the stations are broadcasting it. I mean thats not guessing..thats a fact. We have evidence.

My point is simply that if it doesnt matter to more than a handful out of every 1000 homes in L.A. and Boston and Philly and S.F. and Dallas and Portland where a number of their local channels are in digital and HD content has been increasing (for whatever number of reasons that the lack of caring could be attributed to..no cable carriage cost of tuners, lack of HD programming from the Networks themselves) if I'm a station manager in Amarillo I'm not going to be all that excited about getting up and running for 20 guys that just might buy a tuner. I'm going to kind of keep an eye on the other industries that the vast majority of viewers and myself as a station gm utilize and realize have to carry my signal before sending it out even matters. Or until someone comes out with tuners that dont cost more than most peoples tv's. Sure if more people would buy tuners the cost would come down. But that doesnt take people in midsize markets to do it. It could have happened from the millions by now in the biggest markets if just the notion of having H/DTV channels in their home truly appealed to them.

Which is another thing about cable tv. All the cable Networks. Some of those are the ones that have to go HD before the masses will care. Well again, no cable coverage, no cause for them to develop HD channels. It's a miracle Discovery is about to roll one out under the current state of affairs. I suppose thats due to finally, finally, some cable co's starting to announce plans to get on the bandwagon, or have recently actually got on it and are delivering it.

One thing it doesnt take, is alot of time for the stations to convert..only money. That is if you dont have some Nimby's trying to stand in the way at all costs.

Too bad Powell and the FCC, Congress, whatever, when they mandated that all stations be up and running digitally by 5/1/02 back in 97 and 98 didnt also mandate that all cable co's be ready willing and able to retransmit them by that date too. I have a hunch that had they did that we wouldnt be in this fix around the country..though we still would probably have issues here.

And Mike, thats a good point about Green Bay (my original stomping grounds more or less). Why are those stations so "gung ho" and the ones here arent? But you'll also notice that Time Warner cable in the area is also doing HD now. Coincidence, or might it kind of go hand in hand? Who knows. But since we dont have Time Warner here anyway we wont be seeing HD for a while yet even though a would be cable co could at least deliver the digital channels that we do have.

...if I'm a station manager in Amarillo I'm not going to be all that excited about getting up and running for 20 guys that just might buy a tuner. I'm going to kind of keep an eye on the other industries that the vast majority of viewers and myself as a station gm utilize and realize have to carry my signal before sending it out even matters. That was the very point I was trying to make with the Nielsen statement. Without solid numbers to impress station exec's (who are driven by rating numbers as part of their daily existence) they don't wanna put out. Well, the FCC may finally be coming around to the put out or get out mentality.And even if KUSA and the other "Big 5" or whatever had full power digital signals up and running now, how many would be able to see them via cable? The same big fat goose egg.Well, obviously so since I know of no cable co's in the area carrying the local DT channels. However, if they agree to the Powell plan at least KMGH, KCNC, and KRMA will be available for carriage whereas KUSA (for example) won't be.

All this aside, I believe the stations are being less than sincere in their obligation (yes it's and obligation) to convert and I believe stations are being shortsighted by not converting. With the poliferation of cable many have grown less dependent on OTA and just the sheer numbers of available channels available on cable has lowered viewer-ship numbers on local stations - they've seen a gradual decline in thier audience. Seems to me they can maybe start to regain that if they embrace H/DTV instead of treating it like an expensive albatross. Once the transition train gets rolling they may be able to recover some of those lost viewers (but unfortunately our local station managers think they live in Petticoat Junction).

Along with what you say, Geof. The locals, it seems to me, have been fighting cable for a long time. They lose substantial viewership to the other 500 [sic] channels. Why wouldn't it be in their interest to take the lead in OTA HDTV, sub-classing cable and to a lesser degree satellite?

I would think the locals would be straining at the leash to get up with HDTV during this transition period. "Keep them on antenna (A) and not cable! (B)" battlecry.

-John

It's like why did we all buy cable in the first place? Well, duh, it was HBO. This is the same thing, but reversed in OTA favor. If they are first to market with HDTV, it _may_ be the cable killer.

-John

JM,

I forget her name, but the house keeper on the Brady Bunch Sequel cooks a mean mushroom spaghetti sauce ;)

-John

Along with what you say, Geof. The locals, it seems to me, have been fighting cable for a long time. They lose substantial viewership to the other 500 [sic] channels. Why wouldn't it be in their interest to take the lead in OTA HDTV, sub-classing cable and to a lesser degree satellite?

I would think the locals would be straining at the leash to get up with HDTV during this transition period. "Keep them on antenna (A) and not cable! (B)" battlecry. Right. Once again though, there are no ratings numbers that get station GM's salivating so "there is no business case" for H/DTV. I think the only GM in this area who has a clue is Mr. Morgese (interesting he's at a PBS station - do they pay attention to Nielsen ratings?).

Originally posted by JohnJr
It's like why did we all buy cable in the first place? Well, duh, it was HBO. This is the same thing, but reversed in OTA favor. If they are first to market with HDTV, it _may_ be the cable killer.

-John

To turn this around--why don't I have HBO? Because I can't time-shift HBO-HD, and there is little they offer during prime-time that I want to see. All the copyright paranoia has lost them a customer--not as a protest, but because I can't live with their scheduling and justify the cost.

As you get to outlying areas (like me), another big draw for cable is a better picture than is available OTA. That is certainly the case here.

Back in 1999, I think the broadcasters were a lot more enthusiastic about HDTV as a way to win back eyeballs from cable & satellite. And content MUST lead. Even an "enthusiast" like me isn't going to go out and get a still-expensive OTA receiver and antenna to watch ZERO HD, which is what is available to me. Once we do get OTA HDTV here, I expect to drop cable, and maybe have a minimal satellite package (OK, with HDNet and Discovery-HD, if possible).

I think also that the consumer electronics companies have been disappointing in the receiver area--bogged down initially with worries about 8-VSB, then copyright issues/digital connectors/etc., eliminating the ability of viewers to time-shift, all while keeping prices sky high. In places where there is more content, this is a big factor in why the transition is still going slowly.

Mark

Mark,

I do think an HD tivo would be cool. To be honest, when ya'll talk about some show last night, I didn't see it. It's on my TiVo (SD)

When _we_ talk about HDTV, I'd like to see my Tivo capture it. It's an example of another manufacturer waiting.

-John

Going back to my comments about the transition to color tv, the other things I recall were that the locals in Pueblo were very apologetic for not having color facilities when programming was advertised with the NBC peacock (for example) and I remember them publicizing on the newscasts about the progress to get their color equipment up and operating. By contrast, the locals here in town appear to not even want people to know DTV exists (or at least should exist), and as for progress reports?? I think we know how much publicity the LCG 'efforts' are getting.

As for the local cableco's, since they too are in no rush to chew up their bandwidth, they are no doubt pleased there is nothing to carry. My guess is that there would be more pressure on the local cableco's (especially in light of the tower situation) if KUSA were on the air low power, since all the major networks would at least have sources available, but as long as KUSA is not on the air in any form, there is no pressure on the cable to offer just one or two of the locals. They too have the convenient excuse of waiting until 'all' of the locals are available in HD.

I do agree with those that think the locals are really missing a great window of opportunity here. One of the best ways for the locals to compete with the myriad of cable channels out there, is to offer something very unique. I think that Mark Cuban has certainly seen the wisdom in offering something unique on HDNET, and as a result, he will be one of the first to have his channels carried on satellite and also on cable at some point in the future. Certainly cable and satellite with their limited bandwidths will have only a few HD channels, and I would think the locals would want to be on the air to insure they are among the first carried. Cuban will end up stealing a lot of viewers from the networks through his efforts. One would think that the networks would be doing everything possible to slow the erosion of their audience numbers, but apparently that thought has not crossed their minds.

One would think that the networks would be doing everything possible to slow the erosion of their audience numbers, but apparently that thought has not crossed their minds.That implies the ability to reason and think outside of the world of ratings. Ratings give one "solid numbers" from which to work yet what we're suggesting cannot be proven by the numbers and is therefore a "gamble".
[sarcastic mode off]

What's particularly perplexing to me is that eventually these stations are going to have to spend the money if they wish to stay in business. It's amazing to me that this technology isn't being embraced. I mean after all it's not as if they won't have to spend any money at all if they delay converting. Sooner or later they will have to belly up to the bar. How much do they really save by stalling and is that savings real or some imaginary sum, especially considering the angst that delays cause [a portion of] their viewing public. We all hear about their latest wiz-bang double-double doppler radar (and they still can't forcast worth a damn) yet they're reticent to say anything about digital. They should get on the air (in high power) and produce the local news in HD 16x9 and beating their chests with pride but they choose to "duck and cover" and run away like H/DTV is some god-awful plague. It's easy for me to sit back and criticize but geese I gotta say I think the asylums' are being run by a bunch of bloody morons.

I could be wrong but I think to the TV viewer the notion of getting programs in color vs black and white was probably more revolutionary than the step up to HD is from color at least for run of the mill primetime fare.

As far as better publicizing of HD, I suppose they could try. There are some on screen references to the local digital channel number in some cases as well as the Network overlays of certain programming being available in HD when they begin. I think it's a bit much to expect them to really go overboard with the promotion of it though. Not because of the limited viewing range the 4 digital channels currently have, afterall theres thousands and thousands of households in Denver that could receive all 4, but probably because they'd be laughed at at this point when people would inquire about what they'd have to do to see the HD programming.

A typical call to the station would probably go like this:

Good morning.. say, I noticed at the start of Judging Amy last night it said this programming is available in HD. Can I get that from channel 4, I love that show!?

Yes, though actually you'd be getting it from channel 35 because thats our digital channel.

Oh ok, you mean I can just tune to channel 35 on my cable box to see it, I never noticed that before..

No, it's currently not being carried on cable tv, you need an antenna.

I see. Well the house I just bought down here at Hampden and Monaco has one on the roof so I can just plug that into my tv and tune my tv to channel 35?

No, you need a digital tuner too. You plug your antenna into that first. Then to your tv. But the good news is even if you dont have an HDTV quite yet, you could still see our digital channel and it would be a far better picture than you've ever seen on channel 4, even if not real HDTV.

Wow, great! Thats good cause I cant quite afford a new tv anyway. Ok, so where do I get a digital tuner, like Walmart maybe?

No, Walmart doesnt carry them yet. But Best Buy does.

Oh, cool I shop there alot, they have good buys on electronics. Would you have any idea what one costs?

Well sir, I was in there just the other day looking at one for myself. I saw a nice one by Toshiba. It was 699.99

I see. Thank you for your time. Have a great day now! <click>

But, but, but, they had an open box one for 649.99! Hello, hello?? Damn, I guess he hung up.

Again Dan I won't argue with what you're saying but that is a very narrow view of the overall transition. As I said before, ya gotta start somewhere. I agree, STB's cost too much and prices need to come down. How do you propose that happen? Seems to me the best way to make that happen is to increase demand (supply and demand applies here, no?). Well how does one create demand? By running away from the technology? Obviously not.

The points you make about STB's costing too much and less than 1% of viewers watching HD are valid but apparently if I followed your logic nothing would ever change - no one watches even in markets with lots of available HD, the STB's cost too much, and the difference between color and B&W is vastly different between SD and HD. It seems to me that you're suggesting we all made a mistake buying into this HD stuff and stations that don't convert are smarter than the ones that have converted. I guess I don't understand the end result of your reasoning - where are you going with this line of thought?

Before I step away and allow you to answer let me just say I think you properly point out some current problems and issues that need resolution. I don't think high STB prices (for example) will be a long term problem. I don't think any of the issues we've discussed are long term problems. We haven't even mentioned the absolutely mind blowing copyright situation in this thread and that's another major hurdle that needs to be resolved.

I guess the point of my previous post is how many here would watch KCNC-DT nightly news if it were in HD? As each new HDTV owner buys a set would they not be so inclinded to tune into KCNC-DT HD news rather than KUSA 4x3 crappy NTSC news? Hey maybe it only starts out with 6 new viewers but slowly those numbers would increase to several hundred and then several thousand. Would KUSA sit around and let that happen or would they start to think, humm, maybe we should forget about promoing our double-helix, super-wiz-bang, golly-gee, do-everything, doppler radar and get on with HD News. Their future is HD, that much is clear, yet they avoid it. Why?

Well I dunno the answer Geof. It's many fold. For one thing we all probably expect it to happen too fast. This is a completely different broadcast format that isnt really compatible with any existing equipment. Thats one problem and to expect the transition to have taken place by the end user in a few short years, even if the broadcasters had done their part was probably a pipe dream anyway. If it's content they're waiting for so be it. How long did it take for all programs to be in color once color tv came to be? 10 or 15 years even though there were so very few programs out there to begin with... why was that?

Is it that people dont care all that much about Network programming any moreso than the 100 channels they surf nowadays so even if it were 3D they wouldnt care until ESPN and CNN and A&E and USA and Discovery channel are in HD too? Well there again, cable tv has to carry HD programming first before the majority of those channels will ever bother with a channel like that.

Maybe people want simple recording options for HD like they take for granted with SD. Ooops, cant have that either yet.

I'm just thinking apparently the Govt thought that people would rush to Network digital television once it became available just out of the coolness factor and as such only dictated to the broadcasters themselves to be doing what it takes by 5/1/02. Obviously they were dead wrong in not getting everybody else to commit also for that target date. From Consumer Electronics people to cable tv, to content providers.. all of them. The only way such a massive undertaking could work is for it to be that way.

Finally a month or 2 ago Powell steps up and outlines a plan that actually includes all of the other factions, with timelines as well. And guess what, it actually had immediate results. No, not a cure all, but cable co's committing, Networks committing from a programing point of view and CE guys hopefully understanding that digital tuners must be included in sets. Can we not say that had those timelines been put forth for all the other entities at about the same time it was for broadcasters the transition would be in far better shape right now? I certainly think so. It's like everybody said screw the broadcasters, those crooks.. lets let them sweat it out a few years having a signal that we can almost see to it that nobody watches... since it's going to take alot more than Everybody Loves Raymond being available in HD solely OTA, and at a cost prohibitive pricepoint at that, before anybody buys the means for this new technology.

As for why some broadcasters had no problem pioneering this on their own and doing the right thing..and others having to be pulled kicking and screaming into it (the latter of which I put Fox and Sinclair and Meredith into as corporations), I dont know. I dont by any means feel that our locals are in the kicking and screaming category though compared to the others. Sure they might realize that when things didnt go smoothly at first there might not have been any true rush to get on board but we cant deny they have a pretty stought roadblock to work around. It wasnt supposed to be that hard. You already have a freakin area for the towers, been there since the dawn of tv..you switch it over however you have to and move on. But no.

This isnt really a case of putting off something like a freeway system that we might have needed to do 5 years ago and now find us in a total bind as of today, and yet now have a project that will take 5 years from now to complete. Those are real world, pressing issues that most everyone actually cares about.

In 2 or 3 years when cable co's are fully on board, theres gobs of HD programming from all providers, connectors, copy protection and other recording issues are sorted out, entry level prices have come down further still on displays, I'm sure our local guys, will through whatever means it takes, have gotten done what needs to be done. And maybe, just maybe, by then the people down the street themselves will actualy be ready to buy in. But it will take *all* of the above. If we can say the same thing around the country we'll have had an 8-10 year time period that it took for full conversion. Probably more realistic than the original 3-5 year plan when the only one asked (mandated) to do anything was one faction out of a handful. It doesnt really matter if it was the broadcasters idea to begin with or if we need the spectrum back. This is a nationwide conversion to a whole new broadcast standard that no one entity could make happen all on it's own.

I personally feel that the situation with the local broadcasters will be sorted out in such a way that when it's all said and done wont have hurt anyone but those very very few of us that felt like being on the bleeding edge and werent "lucky" enough to live in an area by sheer coincidence that had digital channels up and running before any "normal" person even cared.

In the meantime though, yeah, sucks to be us.

Originally posted by DP1

Oh ok, you mean I can just tune to channel 35 on my cable box to see it, I never noticed that before..

No, it's currently not being carried on cable tv, you need an antenna.



Dan,

You forgot the part of the conversation discussing antenna rotators. I'm sure most Denver people would need one since their antennas are all pointing toward Lookout, not downtown where the low-power transmitters are. If they weren't discouraged before, that ought to do it.

On the other hand, most of the viewers who manage to get HDTV are quite enthusiastic, and eagerly seek out HD programming.

Mark

Originally posted by Hot
I think DISH Network should pick up the ABC and NBC digital feeds just like they do for CBS and the FCC should force KMGH and KUSA to grant digital waivers.

Then we who own digital TV sets could get the network shows. I am fortunate to be able to get KMGH-DT and KCNC-DT OTA. But this fall NBC is starting HDTV shows and KUSA does not have a digital transmitter operating even at low power.

Just my ramblings on the tower situation.

EchoStar barred from transmitting local TV signals to distant cities

I read this (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/technology/article/0,1299,DRMN_49_1158258,00.html) in the Rocky Mountain News today.

It looks like it could apply to HDTV signals without a waiver, such as the one granted by CBS for O&O cities like Denver.

So my idea seems to have been shot down by the Supreme Court unless we can get KMGH-DT and KUSA-DT to grant waivers and ABC and NBC let Echostar carry their HDTV feeds.

Originally posted by mbuchana


Dan,

You forgot the part of the conversation discussing antenna rotators. I'm sure most Denver people would need one since their antennas are all pointing toward Lookout, not downtown where the low-power transmitters are. If they weren't discouraged before, that ought to do it.


Well in the context of that conversation the antenna was just rotting away, probably pointed towards Limon anyhow due to wind over the years cause the previous owner was a cable tv customer. :D

And a person living where that person lives would be able to get all 4 digital channels without a rotor because even if you point it dead on downtown usually you can still get 32 from Lookout because it's higher powered than the rest.

You dont think I took that all into consideration with my imaginery friend? ;)

But it holds true even for me on 32 pointing at 90 degrees away from Lookout.

Originally posted by DP1
....Not because of the limited viewing range the 4 digital channels currently have, afterall theres thousands and thousands of households in Denver that could receive all 4, but probably because they'd be laughed at at this point when people would inquire about what they'd have to do to see the HD programming.

A typical call to the station would probably go like this:

Good morning.. say, I noticed at the start of Judging Amy last night it said this programming is available in HD. Can I get that from channel 4, I love that show!?

Yes, though actually you'd be getting it from channel 35 because thats our digital channel.

Oh ok, you mean I can just tune to channel 35 on my cable box to see it, I never noticed that before..

No, it's currently not being carried on cable tv, you need an antenna.

I see. Well the house I just bought down here at Hampden and Monaco has one on the roof so I can just plug that into my tv and tune my tv to channel 35?

No, you need a digital tuner too. You plug your antenna into that first. Then to your tv. But the good news is even if you dont have an HDTV quite yet, you could still see our digital channel and it would be a far better picture than you've ever seen on channel 4, even if not real HDTV.

Wow, great! Thats good cause I cant quite afford a new tv anyway. Ok, so where do I get a digital tuner, like Walmart maybe?

No, Walmart doesnt carry them yet. But Best Buy does.

Oh, cool I shop there alot, they have good buys on electronics. Would you have any idea what one costs?

Well sir, I was in there just the other day looking at one for myself. I saw a nice one by Toshiba. It was 699.99

I see. Thank you for your time. Have a great day now! <click>

But, but, but, they had an open box one for 649.99! Hello, hello?? Damn, I guess he hung up.

Dan
I guess my thought on your phone call is that when the guy who saw the pub about HD on channel 35 made the call they could also respond by saying...

"Yes sir, we have all of the equipment in our shack on Lookout Mountain ready to go. All we need is to place an antenna up there and you can watch it. Unfortunately some local residents up there have been using every excuse in the world to prevent us from getting a permit to build the antenna from the Jeffco County Commissioners. Since all of the equipment is ready to go, perhaps if you were to call XXX-XXX-XXXX and tell the commissioners you would like them to give approval to application we could be on the air for you to watch on DT 35 by September. If you have cable then call your cable company at YYY-YYY-YYYY and tell them you want them to feed our DTV signal to you, especially since it is not yet available over the air. We could easily make that signal available to them since we already have the telecast digitized and are only missing the antenna transmitter. We could easily send the signal to them by fiber."

As far as I am concerned, the fact that they DO NOT publicize HD and DO NOT answer the phone this way is the verification of the fact the stations don't really care if they are on the air. I would have to say, however, that KUSA is really the biggest offender here, since they have the largest audience and have done nothing except fund a couple of lawyers.

Let's face it, the local stations are using this mess as an excuse not to be on the air, and now they have the blessing of the FCC for their delay as well. Some stations, like KRMA and KCNC have at least made the effort to provide something people can watch, but beyond that the rest are hiding behind the lack of information in the viewing audience.

As for my comparison to the color TV transition, I do admit it is a rather poor comparison in many respects, but I also do remember the excitement generated by the stations advertising their progress and eventual telecasts in HD. We all know the impact advertising can have. Just think if all the neighborhood kids were going home to mom and dad and saying, Hey, Joey gets to watch cartoons every Saturday on an HD set, how come we don't have one too? I know that happened with color tv. Right now the obvious answer is "because Joey's parents had to set up two satellite dishes and spend thousands of dollars on special receivers and subscribe to Canadian services because there aren't any local broadcasts of those channels in HD in Denver like there are in many of the other cities in the country. That is why your cousin in Detroit has an HD set and we don't."

OK, I know its a reach, but I just can't excuse the local stations for not being on the air. I know they are not the only reason, as the networks also (except for CBS) very slow to make the transition, and I also know that the MPAA is messing up the transition due to their latest effort to overturn the 'fair use' doctrine and institute full time pay-per-view television. None of those things help. On the other hand, having stations on the air couldn't hurt things either.

(Imaginary conversation mode and rant mode off)
I realize the transition will take time, but we also know if the stations don't even broadcast DTV until 2004 or 2005, there is no way the analog can be shut off in 2006. The transition is NOT an optional thing and the stations have known that for years. In the long run, I believe, the additional loss of viewers of the local stations to HDNet, Discovery HD, etc. will more than offset the interest on the money they saved by waiting an extra 3 years to get on the air.

Actually, JM, there is another color-TV transition comparison that is relevant, I think.

For many years when color-TV was being introduced, there was only one network with any significant color programming. It was NBC, which was then owned by RCA, who was selling color TV sets. So, the success of color TV was very relevant to the parent company.

It's harder for the broadcasters to see the quick connection in this transition, though if they look out a little bit they should be able to see that HD does offer the opportunity to bring back viewers in a significant way.

Mark

Let me say it another way and hopefully in a more concise manner as opposed to my incessant rambling.

Do I think all commercial stations (anywhere) should be up and running as called for? Yes, that was the plan and they should('ve) stuck to it.

Now then, there are some facts we do know in hindsight. We do know that nobody is capable of receiving digital channels if the transmitters arent up and running. In the biggest cities theres been a number of channels up and running for quite some time. The people in those cities have for all intents and purposes shown zero regard for those channels. Now why is that? Theres gotta be a reason why millions of these tuners havent been sold to date where OTA digital channels have been available for a good while now. Choose from the following list:

1) Dont watch enough Network programming to care.

2) Entry level equipment costs are too high.

3) Rely on cable tv to bring me my television and wont fuss with an antenna no matter what. HD from cable is a must.

4) Not enough digital channels showing HD.

5) Of the Networks showing some HD not enough of the programming itself is in HD.

6) Figure a means to record HD simply, just as it is with SD is a must.

7) Are ready willing and able to buy in as it stands but have read about possible obsolecence of current hardware so are deciding to wait.

8) No knowledge of the digital channels to begin with.

So, what we have is 7 reasons why people arent buying in that basically any individual local affiliate in any market hasnt much if any control over (they do/would have control over #8).

It all adds up, at least to me, that some number of the 7 reasons has to change before more than a handful out of 1000 of homes will care no matter where those homes are located. Is it 1, 2 or all 7? I dont know.

Again, do I think the Denver stations should be up and running as required? I suppose so, sure. If I'm a station owner in Denver am I losing sleep over the fact that I'm missing out on what could reasonably be expected based on existing data to be about 4 or 5 homes (or even 25 though the data wont support this) out of 1000 at best seeing my would-be full blown digital signal until theres cause basically beyond my control to get more homes truly interested in the technology? I suppose not, no.

Dan I think I pretty much understand your thinking now and mostly agree with what you've said. It's still early in the transition period as you mentioned earlier.Finally a month or 2 ago Powell steps up and outlines a plan that actually includes all of the other factions, with timelines as well. And guess what, it actually had immediate results. No, not a cure all, but cable co's committing, Networks committing from a programing point of view and CE guys hopefully understanding that digital tuners must be included in sets. Can we not say that had those timelines been put forth for all the other entities at about the same time it was for broadcasters the transition would be in far better shape right now? I certainly think so. You'll get no argument from me that this whole thing has been mishandled at the FCC level. I sent this to each FCC commissioner months ago:I am writing you to urge you to pass a digital must carry rule for cable systems. Now is the time to act. Further delay is unacceptable. In my opinion the FCC has done an absolutely horrible job of managing the digital transition and you have one last chance under Chairman Kennard to help right that wrong. From my perspective as a taxpayer you should all be ashamed of this sad and sorry state of affairs. I hold each and every one of the Commissioners accountable for this debacle. If I could dismiss the lot of you I would but since I cannot I will plead with you to have the courage to do something right for a change. Pass digital must carry. Here’s why:
......

deleted because it's not relevant to this post....

......
The 8VSB/COFDM controversy went on far too long, HD Cable standards should have been settled before the first station went on the air, copyright concerns should have been addressed long ago, and a more realistic timetable should have been established. I also think the stations should not have been given ANY spectrum unless they agreed beforehand to the transition timetable (on a station by station basis). They should have been given a 6 month to one year time frame to produce plans to the FCC and given spectrum only after those plans were approved. After the initial 6-12 month "free" period stations should have been required to pay a fee for the spectrum. That would have provided some much needed motivation. That said, we are where we are, all that coulda, woulda, shoulda stuff gets us nowhere.

I think you're still a bit inconsistent in your posts (not that we all aren't from time to time). In one post you argue that there aren't a lot of H/DTV viewers even in HD rich markets and on the other hand you argue that "we all probably expect it to happen too fast". My thought is yes, it is going to take time but the clock doesn't really start in any given market until the local stations in that market are on the air, and I guess that's the crux of my bitches - get on the air. To that end I am firmly convinced our stations are insincere and taking advantage of an admittedly ugly situation on Lookout. Can you imagine how long this would have taken if they could make money on H/DTV? I think if that was the case they would have been on the air a long time ago.

Originally posted by Geof

I think you're still a bit inconsistent in your posts (not that we all aren't from time to time). In one post you argue that there aren't a lot of H/DTV viewers even in HD rich markets and on the other hand you argue that "we all probably expect it to happen too fast".

I *think* what I mean (I'm getting lost myself) :) is that 995 out of 1000 homes couldnt care less now and maybe not for a good while yet.

But it's us other 5 out of 1K who actually have bought in already amid all the obstacles and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread (HD programming) that expect it to happen too fast. It's like sometimes we feel entitled to certain things like gobs of live sports in HD and dont realize that for all the other reasons talked about earlier, we're probably lucky to even get what we do get at this point.

Yeah I hear ya - but (always a but huh?).

I spent some time a few years back when I just had 2 channel stereo and a couple of so-so side speakers for a DPL setup and evaluated what I needed for DVD and HD. I basically needed speakers, amps, processor, DVD player, HDTV & STB (just about everything). As we all know, the expense is enormous. It took me several years to assemble everything I needed. I did my part. I got there. I predicated some of my decisions on the content being there. Guess what - we were let down. Our stations are already years late and there is still no light at the end of the tunnel. Hell, they (LCG) haven't even entered the tunnel. Sure I get to use my gear for DVD's and a few HD channels but for the most part our so-called network TV stations are no where in sight. How are we (HDTV fans) being served by our so called local stations? With the exception of a few programs on KCNC-DT I watch virtually nothing on local stations. Not my first choice but I'll be damned if I will support the likes of KUSA. Their attitude turns my stomach and the other local stations aren't far behind. They aren't serving us, they're serving themselves. I've learned to [mostly] just not give a damn anymore although it still pisses me off when I think about it. I can promise KUSA one thing - I will never be a consistent viewer of their channel, I will never watch 9 news, and I won't be buying anything from their advertisers, even when they finally go digital. For the record I haven't watched any NBC or ABC primetime programs this year and I won't until they go digital (and I can receive it). It shouldn't be this way but that's the way it is and it especially bites because I know they could do something about this mess if they really wanted to. To hell with them.

Yep, for the few hundred thousand in this country that have bought in to the tune for 3 or 4 grand for a display and another 6 or 700 for an HD receiver and tried to do their part as consumers it's a biatch alright. Whether they live in the middle of nowhere and their only hope is satellite with not enough programming there, or they live in many a small market where it's really bleak, or markets like ours where theres some signals but it's hit or miss as to whether you can receive them, to even the biggest markets where I'm sure the guys have beefs too.

But to get to really smooth sailing I'm afraid our numbers will have to increase by perhaps a hundred fold somehow.. 300K---> 30,000,000. Until then we'll just have to keep on biting the bullet. And sometimes perhaps our tongues as well. ;)

But to get to really smooth sailing I'm afraid our numbers will have to increase by perhaps a hundred fold somehow.. 300K---> 30,000,000.Yeah, and that ain't gonna happen unless and until stations get on the air.

Sorry if this is old news, but I notice that KUSA has a link on the first page of their web page called "HDTV Facts". It takes you to the LCG page. KUSA has, over the years, had more HDTV info on their web site than other stations (especially back in '99 before the first LCG proposal was shot down), which is a bit surprising.

http://www.kusa.com

KMGH now highlights HDTV on their main schedule, on the main home page:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com

These are good to see.

Mark

Originally posted by Geof
Yeah, and that ain't gonna happen unless and until stations get on the air.

Well more precisely until cable co's start carrying the signals. Without that every station in the country could be sending out signals and you'd still never sniff that number of homes that could actually tune (view) the channels.

On the other hand you could easily have 30 million homes *right now* that could tune (view) to the Big 4 Network digital channels if cable co's in certain areas were rebroadcasting them. Sure, it'd only be in the top 10 or 15 markets (and/or anywhere that the Big 4 are up and running) but at least the Networks themselves would actually have that number of would be homes overall able to see the HD programming for example (downconverted on their analog sets or otherwise) as opposed to what we do have (maybe half a million at very best between OTA tuners and the handful of cable co's that are currently sending through the digital channels).

Well more precisely until cable co's start carrying the signals. Without that every station in the country could be sending out signals and you'd still never sniff that number of homes that could actually tune (view) the channels.Cableco's can't carry the signals if the stations aren't on the air....

Nope, thats true.

Whats interesting is that were we to have a cable co presently that was capable of HD and all they could send out would be CBS, ABC, PBS and Fox as well as HBO HD and Showtime HD, even without the inclusion of NBC since they're clueless.. you'd sell more HDTV's and have more eyeballs of the local digital channels in the upcoming year than you'll have in the first 5 years of all the local digital channels being in full power but OTA only. I suppose the silver lining is that about the time all the locals do start doing the right thing the cable co's will be getting around to it also and then everybody can live happily ever after.. err..aside from dropouts, cable outages, lack of HD programming, "switch flipping", the "High Resolution" monikor and whatever else it is they might feel the need to bellyache about.

But I realize thats a pointless note for one thing because it's not currently the case and for another most people here have in fact already dropped the 700.00 or are thinking about it for OTA reception and so all that matters is the fact in hand of the so and so broadcasters not doing the right thing *now* or up til now. Which makes sense since this is afterall the "The" Denver HDTV Tower (or lack thereof) thread. Thus I shall forthwith put a sock in it since I have nothing to add in regards to that phenomena alone.

Whats interesting is that were we to have a cable co presently that was capable of HD and all they could send out would be CBS, ABC, PBS and Fox as well as HBO HD and Showtime HD, even without the inclusion of NBC since they're clueless.. you'd sell more HDTV's and have more eyeballs of the local digital channels in the upcoming year than you'll have in the first 5 years of all the local digital channels being in full power but OTA only.I don't know if your numbers are right but I don't quibble with the concept. HD on cable is important to the ultimate success and speed of the transition. It will be interesting to see if any of the local cableco's pick up our local HD stations since that was part of the Powell Plan.

I have AT&T fiber in my front yard and they do not carry HD (or offer cable modem service). Awhile back I called them and asked to be removed from the junk mail list until they offered HD (like I knew that was gonna happen). However, I think HD is important to cable as well. There is just no way Dish or DirecTv (or the combined firm) will have the bandwidth to transmit HD locals to every market. That just ain't gonna happen. However, the local cable companies don't have to rebroadcast all 1500+ national TV channels - just the local ones which they will find room for eventually. So, I don't ever expect to see HD locals on "DirectDish" (except for maybe a few markets) but ultimately expect to see cable companies offering HD locals as a way of distinguishing themselves from the satellite guys.

Fine, make me pull the sock back out for a minute ;)

Well those numbers are just my guess of course but you already know what thats based on. The fact that again, virtually nobody has bought in to speak of in L.A. for example after 3 years of having OTA available to them. Which means if they care about digital channels at all they inherently must be waiting for cable carriage if they're one of the 60-70% or whatever of homes that have cable. Or for tuner prices to drop down to almost nothing I suppose but then that requires antenna issues and all the rest anyway.

As far as any local cable co actually carrying the digital channels I'm kind of carrying over your theme about the local broadcasters *having to* supply digital channels. Well once they're doing the right thing the cable co's will have to re-transmit them because at least at some point there wont be any analog channels to carry. I think the cable co's biggest beef would be having to carry both sides of the same affiliate. Well I dont know why they would have to do that. If a digital channel is available, carry it solely. Even the people that couldnt care less about anything but watching Oprah wouldnt know the difference anyway watching the digital channel downconverted via say s-video on their cable STB to their 27" tv.

As far as any local cable co actually carrying the digital channels I'm kind of carrying over your theme about the local broadcasters *having to* supply digital channels.I don't see why KMGH, KCNC, KRMA, & KDVR couldn't deliver their digital feed to the local cableco's right now (today damnit :) ). Powell did request cableco's with more than 750Mhz of bandwidth to carry up to 5 local channels as I recall (I think that's right?) and I don't think that "request" is tied to the stations broadcasting at full power.

I hope that was a clean pair of socks ;)

You're right Geof, thats my would be great. Uh, AT&T carrying what we have now...not that my socks are clean. Well <ptoooey> both!

Course one would still have to keep any eagle eye on the broadcasters making sure that they wouldnt then figure theres even less pressing need for full power, cause I'm not sure how much good it would do if the cable co's in the outer fringes werent able or willing to upgrade in a timely fashion like the big boys claim they'll be doing.

Aside from that, once the cable co's are upgraded to HD to begin with I cant really see why the low power issue would be a problem. I dont think they have any issues carrying public access channels that just originate from some dudes basement in Aurora do they? Oh wait, thats Wayne and Garth and they were in Aurora IL not CO.. but you know what I mean. ;)

Dan
If we all had to 'put a sock in it' unless we had something to say pertinent to the Denver HDTV Tower, this thread would be drier than the front range water supplies this spring, and we would all have to find something else to do with our down time at work. :(

As for the subject of cableco's carrying HD, I made a feeble attempt earlier to say that I really believe if the local stations were all that interested in broadcasting HD they would have already been working with the local cableco's to get at least one or two to carry their signal, especially in light of the "Lack of Tower" situation. HE'double hockey sticks', KUSA (the self proclaimed "Denver Leader") doesn't even have an HD feed to give to anyone even if the cableco's did carry HD. Why would a cableco worry about carrying HD that doesn't even exist here in town? Cableco's compete with OTA and satellite, and ABC and NBC aren't available in any of those other formats (except for the lucky 13), so if I ran a cableco I sure wouldn't be in a hurry either.

Eventually I would expect the cableco's to carry only the local HD feeds and for the box to downconvert the signal to SD for those without HD sets. Of course that would require a commitment from the cable companies which we aren't likely to see any time soon. The part the bugs me the most is that the attitude of the local stations and the cableco's seems to be that they don't need to worry about broadcasting HD until 85% of the viewers have the equipment and capability to receive HD, and for some reason I don't think that is what the FCC meant by the 85% penetration rule. I know we all want to see HD programming, but in point of fact, the stations are supposed to convert to digital, even if it is not HD (i.e Faux). Obviously HD will drive consumers to buy the HD sets more quickly (especially if cable, OTA, or sat feeds of the stations are available) than SD, but that is not the distinction here. The US is supposed to convert to digital, period. HD was the reason the networks asked to do it, and we all hear of the 'Internet/TV connection' as another reason, but the truth is, the conversion is to digital. The consumer is never going to convert to something that is not even available. He "may" eventually convert to something that IS available.

As for the comments about cities like LA, with digital availability and low conversion rates, from what I know of LA I would assume that the conversion is slow for two reasons: people in the poor communities can't afford it yet, and people in the Hollywood, Bev Hills area get their TV from cable and wouldn't be caught dead with anything as tacky as a TV antenna or satellite dish on the roof.

Originally posted by JMartinko
The part the bugs me the most is that the attitude of the local stations and the cableco's seems to be that they don't need to worry about broadcasting HD until 85% of the viewers have the equipment and capability to receive HD, and for some reason I don't think that is what the FCC meant by the 85% penetration rule.

You got that right. But see the way the law is written the cable co's share a huge burden in this. Because the 85% number refers to number of households that can receive local digital channels by not just OTA. If they get them via a multiple channel service provider that counts too towards the 85% needed. If they would have wrote it up in such a way that 85% had to buy the means on their own to receive digital channels it would probably take til 2016 or beyond not 2006 to shut the analog side down.

Thats why we're theoretically closer to the shut down, in certain markets anyway, than some people might think. At least on paper.

Again, as long as the local Big 4 can be received on at least one tv in 85% of the households in a market through OTA or via a multi channel provider we're good to go. Well, you get cable, DBS (at least in the 40 or so markets they currently serve) and the Big 4 themselves up digitally in a market, you almost got it. Cable and DBS penetrate about 80% these days in the average market. You'd "only" need a 5-10% OTA buy in.

This of course is aside from the bloody murder people are going to scream if they only currently say have one tv connected to cable in the home out of 5 sets total. But that is how it was written up in The Balanced Budget Act of 97.

Originally posted by Geof
I don't see why KMGH, KCNC, KRMA, & KDVR couldn't deliver their digital feed to the local cableco's right now (today damnit :) ). Powell did request cableco's with more than 750Mhz of bandwidth to carry up to 5 local channels as I recall (I think that's right?) and I don't think that "request" is tied to the stations broadcasting at full power.

I hope that was a clean pair of socks ;)

Don't we have a member here who went to work for ATT cable? (Bud??) I wonder if there is any behind the scene movement to get HD channels on ATT. I sure hope so, because if it starts on ATT in Denver, it will eventually make it's way up here where I have NO chance to get it OTA. (Of course, I hope it's nothing like the "behind the scenes" movement that the LCG has be involved in :rolleyes: )

I have a friend who has a Mits 55 inch HD ready set - but he isn't going to buy a STB until he's able to get ABC/CBS/NBC HD. (he's got much more self-control than I do!;) ) But there has to be quite a few people like that - they would jump at the chance to sign up with ATT if they started including HD channels (I know I would!).

-Mike

They have added a time, date and location for the next community meeting.

Wed. May 29th 6:30 - 8:00
Golden Community Center
1470 10th Street,
Golden

No agenda though.

-Wabisabi

Yesterday, I was leaving my house and at the corner of I-70 and Lookout Mt. Rd was that wacky lady from (S)care standing at the exit handing out anti-tower propaganda. She also had a van with a HUGE sign on it that read "Stop the Tower"! Nice!

Of course, i had to stop briefly by to tell her that there's many of us who WANT the tower. She didn't like that... haha!

that wacky lady from (S)care standing at the exit handing out anti-tower propaganda. She also had a van with a HUGE sign on it that read "Stop the Tower"! Nice!Humm, I guess she wants higher RF emissions, more antennas, and more visual clutter. She's probably delirious from the lack of sleep caused by RF in the area....

The sad thing is that type of effort probably pays off. I wonder if we'll see Pete (or any other LCG rep) standing on the opposite corner with a Van painted Build the Tower!

Ok, Probably not, but I do think they have to meet this kind of challenge head on or face unpleasant consequences....

Maybe I'll go up there and hand *her* a flyer. My neighbors house is for sale. If she buys that one, she wont have to waste a moment of her time anymore with all that other nonsense.

Course, maybe she wouldnt like the look of my antenna above the garage. Come to think of it..maybe thats why the neighbor is moving too. ;)

Originally posted by DP1
Maybe I'll go up there and hand *her* a flyer. My neighbors house is for sale. If she buys that one, she wont have to waste a moment of her time anymore with all that other nonsense.


But I don't think you want to invite "wacky lady" to live in your neighborhood, either. ;) You never know what crusade she might be on next!:rolleyes:

I'm trying to figure out if it's something on my end, or KCNC is having issues. A couple days ago I noticed my signal strength was all over the board. Way up, then way down rather quickly, etc etc. Today the channel seems virtually gone on my end. I get the ever so slightest response to even get the meter to show it. Any less and it would be non existent.

At first the other day I was thinking that maybe since the foliage had come out, that was an issue for me (is there even such a thing as multipath from a low power channel to begin with?) since 35 only started broadcasting in the winter. Now I'm not so sure as it seems gone altogether for me. I still get 18, 32 and even 17 (especially *since* the foliage came out again..go figure) really good, so I cant figure out the deal... cause nobodies mentioned it here yet. Afterall, doesnt the usual HD viewer panic as soon as a channel goes down. ;)

Denver area reception report ...

Location: West of Berthoud, which is about 40 miles north of Denver, latitude is about exit 250 on I-25, longitude is right up next to the foothills, in fact I'm behind one foothill. Just south of Carter Lake if you know the area. The valley I'm in is about the same elevation as the plains. View to the east is blocked by that foothill, to the south is Rabbit Mountain, but I have a clean shot to the southeast, looking directly at Longmont, DIA in the distant background.

Equipment: HTPC with MyHD card, chimney mounted Radio Shack deep fringe VHF/UHF antennae (supposedly a 210 mile VHF range, the biggest unit they sell) connected to a Radio Shack 4-output distribution amp, one output of that amp goes directly to MyHD card and nowhere else.

Reception: D18 (PBS), D32 (Fox), D35 (KCNC)!!!

It was a big risk to buy the MyHD card without knowing if I'd be able to get anything out here in the stix. Even OTA analog is somewhat difficult here, hence the big antennae. I mainly hoped to get D32, since A31 comes in poorly (multipath) and so many good football games are on Fox and I can't hardly stand to watch them the analog reception is so poor. I only took the risk and bought the MyHD because of the Powerbuy deal. I didn't imagine I'd be able to get any of the low power stationsat all. I'm probably 50 miles from downtown and I don't have line of sight.

So I'm pleasantly surprised (SHOCKED is more like it) to be able to get 3 stations.

A *little* bit of intermittent checkerboarding watching D35 last night. I'll monitor the situation. I'll get the big dedicated UHF antennae that RS sells if I have to. I might anyway, if there's a chance of getting KMGH.

Apparently, D18/PBS is the only one of the three transmitting true 16:9 HDTV all the time. I have a 4:3 set, and I can't decide whether I like it better letterboxed (black bars above and below) or when using the MyHD "zoom" aspect ratio setting, which fills the screen but chops off the sides. Fortunately, the aspect ratio control is a dedicated button on the MyHD remote, so I can easily go back and forth.

D32/Fox appears to be transmitting a 480 signal that has been horizontally stretched, it's in 16:9 format but the picture quality is poor (much better than my analog reception of 31 though) and everything appears fat. When I put the MyHD's aspect ratio setting on "full", it stretches it vertically to fill my 4:3 set and the fatness goes away. This same aspect ratio setting makes everything tall and skinny when applied to either of the other 2 channels.

D35/KCNC is applying gray bars to the side of the program when transmitting 4:3 material. That makes more sense to me than making everything look fat, like Fox is doing. But, it also makes the picture small, I essentially have a 24" or so 4:3 picture in the center of my 32" 4:3 screen. The MyHD "zoom" aspect ratio setting brings it right in, though, filling the screen, with no lost info or distortion.

With the broadcasters formatting things differently like this, it's a good thing the MyHD has an aspect ratio button on the remote!

Dan,

I have had the same problems with 35 since Thursday or so. I played with my antenna today and the best that I could get was around 60% for just a brief second and then it drops to nothing.

I am getting great reception on 31 and 18, not sure what is going on with 35 though.

I just got a MyHD card as well and was looking forward to recording some CSI while it is in repeats, but now of course 35 is dead! :(

Steve

Thanks for the feedback Steve.

I'm still not sure whats going on. It's still acting flakey on my end. On my Mitsu tuner which I need about 37 on the meter for glitch free reception, I'm only getting 35 at 21-24 right now. But yet whenever it's been real windy like last night for a time around dinner time it'll fly up to 93-100 and then way back down and way back up. As soon as it calms down it just settles back in the 20's and thus of course no picture.

Yet as I said earlier I still get 18 at 100, 32 in the 70's and even 17 at about 44.. none of which having any fluctuations to speak of. Hmmm..

Dan

I just checked the digital channels this morning and I am getting 64 on 35, 70 on 32, 64 on 18 and 30 or so on 17. I haven't watched much TV this weekend except for the AVs so I don't know what might have been going on earlier. The strength numbers are the same that I always have received except for 17 which is now too low to receive consistently due to foilage. I plan to try to point the antenna again to maximize 17.

On another point, last week I sent David Layne at KCNC another email regarding tinny sounds (happened while watching First Monday for the first time). Here is his response back to me just this morning:


Dennis - the audio problem on our HD channel has been a challenge. We
recently ordered new (and very expensive) test equipment that will allow us to take apart the digital audio stream and see where the problem is
occurring. We believe it may be a non-synchronous switch from our network
feed. We seem to be one of the few stations experiencing this problem and
we're concerned about this quality control problem. The one thing we do
different with our HD stream is delay our HD programming (Rocky Mountain
time zone issue) while all the other CBS stations pass it through direct.
The only other CBS station we know of doing net delay is Salt Lake City and
they also have experienced some audio problems.

The digital test equipment arrived a short while ago and staff training is
now scheduled for June 12.

Thanks for your patience and please continue to keep me posted.


Well, at least this shows he cares and does value feedback!!

I haven't tried Ch 35 since Thursday and the sound dropouts were so bad during the first CSI that I ended up watching most of in on Ch4 (yuck). The second episode was better but still bad. I will have to check my signal strength tonight. I didn't get a great signal level to begin with but hopefully the elevation at my place works to my advantage and it's not fallen as much as Dan's...

From my observation the KCNC Engineering Dept does a terriffic job trying to keep the digital audio in sync and working. HDTV is a whole new ballgame and their years of NTSC experience don't mean much when they're trying to split open the digital data stream. But I have no doubt they'll eventually master the problem. We should be grateful that they are actively working the problem and interested in our feedback.

Now then, if only the KUSA Engineers could be coming up on the learning curve.....

Signal Strength on DT35 is 65.
Signal strength on DT18 is 51.
Signal strength on DT17 is 6.

It's a few minutes before 7PM on 5/28. All readings are more or less normal (although it's more usual for the 18 and 35 readings to be the other way around).

Thanks Geof. Yeah I was messing around with it this afternoon again and if I move the antenna (outdoor yagi) well off the bearing it'd been set on all winter I can then get 35 as I should. The problem with doing that is giving up 17 since placement is so crucial for that one. In the antennas current placement it looks like it can only be either or. Something about that placement that 35 doesnt like now that theres all the foliage. Guess if it bugs me enough I could just move the whole mount and all a few feet and try again.

I was able to even get 35 all winter with a simple set top loop/rabbit ear combo if I chose to. Cant even sniff it with that now. It's funny how it works for me at least from the one given spot with the big antenna.. 35 goes to heck with foliage, 18 stays the same (again always pegging 100 with *alot* of leeway) and 17 decidedly improving (though still needing pinpoint aiming) because of the foliage.

I know KUSA has been apathetic at best towards HDTV so far, but I was wondering if we have any contacts that might know whether they've reconsidered putting up a "temporary" low-power transmitter now that NBC has announced substantial HDTV content this fall.

I know they've historically said Lookout or nothing, but that was when they didn't really have any content from NBC to retransmit.

Probably just wishful thinking...

The 2nd community meeting for LCG is tonight at the Golden Rec Center. I'm not sure if I am going, since the AVS play tonight as well.

Is anyone going?

-Wabisabi

:D :D :D :D

I have tickets to the game tonight so I will DEFINITELY NOT be at the meeting.

:D :D :D :D



In an effort to find out about the status of KRMA in all of this I sent a message to James Morgese yesterday. James has given me permission to post the comments to the forum. Here is the primary part of the text I sent:

****
......Unfortunately I remain conflicted about the importance of that application with respect to the coincident LCG application on Lookout which I fully support. I know many of the AVS forum members have the same conflict in understanding which application you would prefer we support, and I wonder if you could provide us with some clarification. Should we support the Mt. Morrison application if we believe it dilutes the possibility of success of the LCG application? Should we support the Mt. Morrison application even if it proceeds the application and hearings from the LCG application? Would you be willing to delay the Mt. Morrison application until a ruling is obtained for the application on Lookout? Do you feel the need to pursue the Mt. Morrison application in the sense that if it is rejected it will cement Lookout Mountain (since the rejection of the Eldorado proposal) as the lone existing remaining site available?

I know the CARE organization has filed information protesting the dual application, and I know this issue was also a HOT topic at the April 16 community meeting in Jeffco. I understand and sympathize with the predicament that you are in, as you appear to be being penalized and attacked for being the most vigorous station in Denver in attempting to get DTV on the air. Nevertheless, your attitude on the continued support for each application and which you would give a higher priority needs to be addressed to the public. It was a major question at the community meeting, and is supposed to be answered tomorrow night at the LCG meeting intended to give responses to the questions generated at the last meeting. I spoke with Pete McNally this morning on this subject, and he was still unable to provide any information as to the stance of KRMA on these issues. I also know he will again be bombarded by questions on this subject tomorrow night, and it would be helpful if he has an official KRMA position to present.

I would appreciate it if you could give me some guidance as the priority of each application with respect to the other one, but would certainly understand if you prefer not to deal with me directly on that issue. I am well aware of the many negotiations you must have had in order to prepare the Mt. Morrison application, and that you must maintain a good relationship with all of the parities involved with that application. I would hope, though, that you would have a response from KRMA prepared for the meeting tomorrow and have something that can be posted on the LCG web site and/or shared with the AVS forum members. I know that many of the members in the AVS forum group are basically supporting only the LCG proposal, and will need some justification from you in order to support the Mt. Morrison application at the same time. I hope you can shed some light on these issues. I certainly do no envy your position, as you are obviously being made to walk a fine tightrope with both parties. Even so, I am sure that Jeffco, CARE and your supporters within the AVS forum group and the public will at some point require clarification.

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide on your position with regards to the dual application. I continue to congratulate and support the efforts of KRMA to bring DTV and HDTV to the Denver community and still recognize KRMA as the leading station in this effort. Keep up the great work.

******

James sent back this reply:

********

I understand your concern, but allow me to explain.

The Mount Morrison application is very important because it is an alternative site that that was important to homeowners and the county during the last LCG hearing process. I took that feedback seriously and tried to find alternative sites that would suit the needs of KRMA, KUVO and KCFR. Morrison is also important for the roll out of digital television due to the fact that, considering the reality of the time it takes to process an application, it is perhaps a year ahead of the LCG hearing at the planning committee. At this time, LCG has not yet filed. As a station that takes the FCC timeline seriously, I believe that there is reason enough to support Morrison.

Can both the Morrison and LCG applications be approved? The Morrison proposal has limited potential for handling more than one more television station, although there is expansion potential for radio through a multiplexed antenna. Therefore, Morrison is not the consumate answer to the Denver market going digital; it is only one piece of the solution. ¾In my mind and from a practical standpoint, there has to be some other site approved in the future in order to accomodate all the television stations. ¾Does approval of the Morrison application dilute the LCG application? ¾I don't think so. The LCG application still has the big three plus channel 20. It may even help because the concentration of RF will be lower once KRMA , KUVO and KCFR are out of the area. The dual application issue is moot at the moment because LCG has not filed.

Having been at this for more than a decade, I have learned not to second guess the process in Jeffco. Anything can happen. The goal here is to get on the air with DTV, serve the public that currently views analog Channel Six, and make sure that public radio is preserved for Colorado. The Morrison application achieves this and so does the LCG application. Consideration of Morrison us upon us within the next 60 days. We all need to get behind it.

I think that CARE has given more weight to the dual application than is realistic in order to find something to shoot at. These are not mutually exclusive scenarios. I ask that the AVS group support any sound proposal that will get this market DTV. Both Morrison and Lookout are technically sound and well researched while trying to keep the public interest in mind.

Please call me at XXX-XXX-XXXX if you have any questions and please show up next week in support of Morrison.

********

If you are like me, I suspect this doesn't answer all of your questions, but I recognize that KRMA is in a politically touchy situation and probably James can't say much more than what is above at this time. I know this will probably start some more discussion on the issue, but I guess I feel that KRMA still deserves out support since they have been there for us HDTV viewers much longer and much stronger than any of the other stations.

PS
GO AVALANCHE!!!!!!

Hey, jm, do you need anyone to go to the game with you???

Thanks for the offer Geof, but my 15 year old son already makes my life a living h*ll, I would not want to imagine how hard he would be to live with if I told him I sold his ticket. On the other hand if the price was right you could go with him???????

They don't call it the...

AVS Forum for nothing!

I also will be watching the AVS win.

Redwings Suck!

I think KRMA sees Morrison as "win-win". If it's approved they're set to go. If it's rejected it eliminates one more potential site in JeffCo. Either way they "win" (obviously one outcome is more of a victory than the other). Not sure how this impacts the Lookout proposal though. That's still a question in my mind although the point is valid that Morrison doesn't solve all of the problems for all of the stations...

The delay of the LCG application means these 2 apps won't be undergoing the same scrutiny at or near the same point in time. Hence, if the Morrison site is approved I still think (S)CARE will find a way to use this dual app to their advantage - like maybe the LCG proposal should be redone (i.e., downsized) yet again, to not include KRMA...

Thanks for the offer Geof, but my 15 year old son already makes my life a living h*ll, I would not want to imagine how hard he would be to live with if I told him I sold his ticket. On the other hand if the price was right you could go with him???????Hey, I can sit next to Alex..., but if not, I'll wait for the Stanley Cup finals then...;).....Detroit bites....

The LCG website is now showing the questions and answers from the last community meeting. They look to have answered all the questions that they didn't answer at the meeting.

updated web site (http://www.lakecedargroup.com/Audience%20Questions.html)

-Wabisabi

s(Care) folks are gonna be pissed about the channel 9 radar not coming down...but other than that, I don't remember any other questions that were asked at the last meeting that didn't get answered. Of course, if these just showed up on the website today, I bet tonight's meeting will be spent asking and answering these same questions.

Unless they just updated it today, the LCG web page did not answer the question about KRMA. That is what prompted my note to them and my post here.

Don't know how the meeting went tonight, but I could have saved a sh*t load of money if I had gone to the meeting instead of the AVS game. Oh well, now I have something to do on Friday.
:(

I just hope there is NO similarity to the outcome of the meeting and the AVS game!

Only about 10 people showed up. The meeting was pretty short, and LCG answered a few questions left unanswered at the last meeting. All the answers were on the web site already except for the KRMA question. Their answer is something to the effect of: The KRMA status will be resolved before the LCG applies.

Overall, it was cheaper than going to see the Avs, but about as much fun.

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi
Only about 10 people showed up. The meeting was pretty short, and LCG answered a few questions left unanswered at the last meeting. All the answers were on the web site already except for the KRMA question. Their answer is something to the effect of: The KRMA status will be resolved before the LCG applies.

Overall, it was cheaper than going to see the Avs, but about as much fun.

-Wabisabi Thanks for the update. No new issues means they can submit the application sooner than if they had new issues to work on. Hopefully they'll get their submittal in before the middle of June....

Regarding the Morrison application, I believe the first Planning Board meeting is in the next couple of weeks. That means it's probably time to collect the Petitions and get them submitted to Jefferson County. I will ask Jay to send out a group email with addresses for JeffCo and me. I'd prefer the petitions be sent to me so I can tally up the number of signatures before submitting them to JeffCo. I will likely ask for these to be mailed out in the next couple of days.

NOTE: If you would like to receive email notification of Denver DTV news and events, send an email with 'Subscribe' in the subject line to:
denver-dtv@attbi.com


ALternately send me a PM with your email address and I'll get the postal addresses to you...

Note: Edited to correct the email address....

Originally posted by Geof
Regarding the Morrison application, I believe the first Planning Board meeting is in the next couple of weeks.

The dates I heard were June 5, June 12. and June 26, but this is second hand information and should be taken with a grain of salt.

jm,
I talked with Tiffany at KRMA and your dates are good. We agreed that a good target date to have petitions in JeffCo hands is June 14th. I will spell this all out in the group email I am composing....

All -

If you are interested in joining the email list, please email me at denver-dtv@attbi.com with 'Subscribe' in the subject line (Geof's post above has the wrong email address).

Also, I just sent out an email to the group from Geof, so if you did not get it, you probably are not on the list.

Jay

Oops, thanks for the correction Jay - I've fixed my post....

Was any body getting the dropouts I was on KCNC last night during CSI and the Agency. I was hoping it was the station since I was locked without dropouts on PBS and ABC.

Can someone guide me to a OTA signal meter.

Thanks,

Doug

You're probably not gonna like this but I didn't experience any dropouts. The sound was a bit distorted at times but no dropouts (picture or sound wise).

I noticed two times last night with sound problems -- tinny and some clipping on loud sounds. I usually email David Layne at KCNC with what I observed. He appreciates it. The picture was perfect.

Anybody know what's up with KFCT? I scanned the digital channels yesterday and got a lock on them. But they had KDVR's news on? IS this just a repeater in Ft. Collins?

Has this thread moved? Where did everybody go?

The thread is still here - I guess we're all waiting for news...

Along those lines, please don't forget to send the petitions back to me or JeffCo. The KRMA hearings start tomorrow and so far I've received a whopping 0 petitions......maybe these towers don't really matter ??

Originally posted by santellavision
Anybody know what's up with KFCT? I scanned the digital channels yesterday and got a lock on them. But they had KDVR's news on? IS this just a repeater in Ft. Collins?

Somewhere I read that they did have a digital channel allocated corresponding to their analog translator here. It sounds like it is actually up and running, which is a bit of a (pleasant) surprise.

Is KDVR-DT "fixed," i.e., are they now doing 480p 16x9, including audio, etc.?

Mark

Where can I get good advice on what antennae to use and how to integrate it with my DirecTV service to receive HD OTA signals? I live 22 miles south of Denver at about 6000 ft. elevation. Thanks in advance!

Where can I get good advice on what antennae to use and how to integrate it with my DirecTV service to receive HD OTA signals? I live 22 miles south of Denver at about 6000 ft. elevation. Thanks in advance!If you search for UHF or Antenna, etc, in this thread you will find several discussions. Generally speaking you want the biggest baddest-ass UHF antenna you can find and ideally this antenna would be placed outside, high up, and have a decent line of sight towards downtown. Use low loss RG-6 cable from the antenna directly to your HD STB (splitters will kill the signal). Be forewarded though, that inches make a difference so it's probably best if you can cable up the antenna and walk around with the antenna in hand while someone looks at the signal strength meter. Once you find a good location then you can mount the antenna... OH, and good luck!

I put up a CM 4248 (large yagi) about 10 feet above my roof and easily get 18 32 and 35. 17 is VERY hard to get if you don't have pure line of sight. I was getting it until the leaves came out and now the signal is too weak. I am just south of CC reservoir. Be sure to use RG-6 and don't combine the antenna with the satellite on one cable. You will lose too much signal. There is a lengthy antenna forum at HomeTheatreSpot which you could learn a lot from.

Good luck!

Lucky Me! With the change of seasons and all the pondering of leaves, I did a channel rescan and, low and behold, KRMA-DT 18 showed up! I was only able to receive KDVR OTA here in Elizabeth since I put a big RS yagi in the attic last fall. Still no KCNC, though.

I don't understand it -- but I'll take what I can get.
(I'll probably lose it again come Fall)

Hey Fellas,

KDVR is still not broadcasting in 480p. They have apparently had a problem with equipment and have had to send it back numerous times.

My other problem, (dropouts on KCNC) could be traced to the addition of new UHF channel 48 on top of Republic Plaza (@5/20). The new station was creating a lobe pattern (?) that my antenna was having a problem with and I was getting multi-path that my receiver could not handle. The problem was fixed by replacing my Wineguard with a RS Double Bow Tie.

I also found that KCNC was excellent to deal with, had a genuine concern for my problem and was very knowledgeable about the potential fixes. The guy I dealt with was George Race. Thanks George.

Doug

Channel 48 on top of Republic? What's channel 48?

Mark,

I believe it is a religious station that began to broadcast mid May from the Republic Plaza. This is the information I received from KCNC. I have not tried to receive channel 48 at the house.

I was just happy to receive KCNC rock solid again after changing my antenna.

Doug

Originally posted by Geof
The thread is still here - I guess we're all waiting for news...

Along those lines, please don't forget to send the petitions back to me or JeffCo. The KRMA hearings start tomorrow and so far I've received a whopping 0 petitions......maybe these towers don't really matter ??

The hearing is tonight at 6:00 PM for those who are interested.

The first of three hearings that is...

Along those lines - it's time to lick those envelops shut and get the petitions mailed....

I went to the hearing. The testimony from one tower case seems to blend in to the next. I'm not sure that any new arguments can be made for or against any towers at this point.

-Wabisabi

(of course people testifying in favor of a tower proposal may get somebody's attention)

Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E655852%257E,00.html)

Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_1191805,00.html)

-Wabisabi

From the RMN:
Deborah Carney, a spokeswoman for the group said earlier. "And the radiation is increasing to the point it is going to affect not only our area, but significant portions of Jefferson County."We should all take note of the actions of this attorney. She obviously has NO qualifications WHATSOEVER to make statements like this yet does so and even manages to get her fictitious and inflammatory statements published in the newspaper.

I predict right now - this application will fail. Never mind sending in the petitions - this battle will be lost unless BCD and/or PIC go on the attack. There is no point fighting this folks. Not when unqualified people make hideous and erroneous statements that remain unchallenged. The sad fact is if you say something enough times people will start to believe it regardless of whether or not it is true. All I can say to this attorney is that I hope for her sake there is no afterlife because if there is she will surely be held accountable for her actions in this life.

----

One other comment - does anyone else find it interesting that the newspaper articles have different figures for tower heights?From the RMN:
They offer two options. One calls for a 260-foot vertical tower with a 40-foot, top-mounted antenna.

The other, developed in response to community reaction, proposes a horizontal tower 120 feet wide and 70 feet high with top-mounted antennae that could rise up to 70 feet above the tower. From the Denver Post:
As president of Bear Creek Development Corp., Bradley has proposed tearing down the current 60-foot radio-and-TV tower on the mountain above the historic town of Morrison and replacing it with either a 260-foot tower with guy wires or a trapezoid-shaped structure 120 feet wide and 60 feet high.

Either option would be topped with 60-foot antennas and would include removing the KRMA-Channel 6 tower on Lookout Mountain.

Originally posted by Geof
One other comment - does anyone else find it interesting that the newspaper articles have different figures for tower heights?
Well, everything they quoted from Carney was inaccurate -- I guess they wanted to stay with that theme. It is a pitiful attempt at journalism on such a heated, highly visible (no pun) topic.

I sadly agree, Morrison is being beat up by (S)CARE and looks doomed. But I don't mind so much -- I am idly standing by for the LCG application fight. Someone needs to get a word in edgewise in a column contesting Carney facts during the battle.

Did any other AVS members attend the hearing last night?

I sadly agree, Morrison is being beat up by (S)CARE and looks doomed.

To me, Morrison did not get beaten up nearly as bad as Pinnacle. The Planning Commission got through all group testimony the first night, even though there were two cases on the agenda before Morrison. This means that there is a chance that the Planning Commission will not need all three nights. I think that with a little support, Morrison stands a chance at approval.

-Wabisabi

Did any AVS members that live in Jeffco speak in favor of the towers???

Did any AVS members that live in Jeffco speak in favor of the towers???

They did not get to individual testimony yet. They will start taking individual testimony at around 7:30 this coming Wednesday. I encourage anyone who is in favor of this proposal, or those who are frustrated with the lack of DTV, to come speak your mind.

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi
To me, Morrison did not get beaten up nearly as bad as Pinnacle. The Planning Commission got through all group testimony the first night, even though there were two cases on the agenda before Morrison. This means that there is a chance that the Planning Commission will not need all three nights. I think that with a little support, Morrison stands a chance at approval.

-Wabisabi I hope you're right. However, I think they (BCD/PIC) need to be proactive and aggressive in their campaign. False and misleading statements by an aggressive opponent need to be challenged/disputed and corrected. There is no way Ms. Carney should be unchallenged when making patently false claims that are designed for no other reason than to upset and tug at the emotions of (S)CARE residents. This kind of crap needs to be disputed and the source discredited. Imagine how this snowballs if one lie begets another begets another and none are disputed. Now consider that if each and every lie is disputed the credibility of the liar quickly comes into question...and that's what needs to be done - make people question the credibility of an attorney making outrageous claims that have no basis in scientific fact.

Why can't the local stations just put up the DTV antennas on the plains somewhere if the mountain towers are too difficult to get passed all the legal obstacles. What do they do in areas that don't have mountains. It seems to me they could build a tower as high as the one in Erie and get pretty good range.

Originally posted by wahlin
Why can't the local stations just put up the DTV antennas on the plains somewhere if the mountain towers are too difficult to get passed all the legal obstacles. What do they do in areas that don't have mountains. It seems to me they could build a tower as high as the one in Erie and get pretty good range. I don't remember all of the reasons but the FCC has said they pretty much need to replicate their existing coverage area (within reason). Additionally TV station revenue is based on advertising revenue which is based on the number of viewers. Therefore the TV stations don't want to loose very many viewers (because it would lower their income). Building a tower high enough to provide an approximate same coverage area would mean a very tall tower and that very tall tower would have to be nearer to town than Limon. There are two problems with this that readily come to mind - any residents near the site the stations chose would immediately start bitching just like (S)CARE. But the biggest obstacle would likely be from the FAA. The FAA doesn't want any really tall towers anywhere near major airports and with runways going every which way out of DIA I suspect any tower within a 30 mile radius (I'm guessing at the distance) would likely be flat out rejected by the FAA.

---

On a separate note - To date (including todays mail) I have received just 1 petition with 21 signatures. I received some petitions at the LCG meeting and so far I'd estimate I have 75-100 signatures. That is pretty bad. That means that everyone on the mailing list (which is over 100 names long) hasn't even signed a copy much less collected signatures. Please - if you haven't collected any signatures don't be shy - just sign a copy of the petition and return it to me - we'd easily double the number of signatures (and I promise not to tell anyone how many signatures you got). I was being a smart-ass above when i said not to bother. Indeed we do need to bother - we need to counter the voices of a very loud (S)CARE organization.......

Ok, the need for petition signatures just got cranked up. I have been signed up to introduce these petitions to the planning Board during their meeting this coming Wednesday. Please, please send me the petitions ASAP so we can get the necessary copies made and so that I can submit them to the Planning Board on Wednesday.

I'll ask Jay to send out another group email.....

Geof
I am one of the guilty ones who has not gotten my petitions in the mail to you. The past few weeks have been VERY busy for me. I will try to get it out tomorrow. I hope others will do the same.

On another note, have all of the folks who originally offered to testify for KRMA at the meeting scheduled a month or so back been contacted by, or contacted Tiffany or someone from KRMA to offer a statement next week. I would hope you will contact them again if you haven't heard and offer to speak at the hearing again this time. I know there were three or four of the group who not only live in Jeffco, but also live in the Lookout area. I am sure your testimony will carry a LOT of weight. If you are uneasy about supporting 'just' the KRMA option, I would guess you could speak generically about the need for DTV towers and your approval of putting them in the area and leave it at that. Please contact KRMA if they have not contacted you again. We can all spend time complaining about the lack of appreciation the AVS group might have received while the towers are being constructed.

I am one of the guilty ones who has not gotten my petitions in the mail to you. The past few weeks have been VERY busy for me. I will try to get it out tomorrow. I hope others will do the same. Yes, please do. I really didn't want to testify at this hearing but having something to submit that demonstrates support makes it more palatable. Besides, it doesn't take long to address an envelope and throw a stamp on it.

I think KRMA is a little behind - as Wabisabi noted the hearings went faster than expected and public testimony was moved up. I certainly do hope some JeffCo residents will support the hearing and agree (or re-agree) to testify. It would be kind of sad if if this Douglas County resident was the only AVS member to speak at a JeffCo Planning Board meeting (jm, did they recruit you??)

I am mailing my petition. I only have my signature. No one else I know in my neighborhod has an HDTV set.

Geof,

I just got back from another looong road-trip. How do i get signed-up to testify at a JeffCo meeting?

You cannot believe how much False info is being spread by Deb Carney & Friends. I just got the latest City & Mountain News, and she is on a freakin' tirade! The newsletter is supposed to be a local paper with events and such. It's now nothing but a Anti-tower rag. Here's some actual quotes from it...Once approved, JeffCo has no control of antenna patterns, RF interference, or number of devices used.Adding DTV in the foothills would produce an electromatic deadzone within an 8-mile radius. She's just spouting as much BS as she can and NOBODY calls her on it. We should take out an ad in the paper and state the 'true' facts that the consolidation tower will:
1) Lower RF in the area.
2) Vastly improve the visual look of Lookout Mt. for both sides.
3) Provide a superior television picture to our entire community.
4) Give everyone in (S)care more time to be with their families instead of inventing lies.

Ernie,
Send me a PM with your phone and email address. When I talk with Ken Smith I'll relay the info to him (he can get you signed up)....

Geof,
I was out of town all weekend and just saw this. I am wondering if I can still get this to you Monday? Are faxes acceptable, or can I drop it off? I am in Littleton...

I was holding out for more signatures, think I can get them tomorrow morning...

edited to add: Thanks to all of you for your hard work on this matter. I haven't spent much time at AVS since finding out that the indoor antenna options available to me in my apartment won't even bring in KDVR's digital channel. I am moving to a house in Lakewood soon, and out of this valley should be able to get signal. Anyway, thanks again to all of you. What else can I do to help?

If you send it to me today I may get it tomorrow - especially if you can drop it off at a Post Office....drop me a PM if you need my address...

Folks,
I've gotten several PM's and emails asking for fax numbers and/or can I arrange to meet to get me the petition. I really appreciate all these efforts, however my mind is not on this at this time. I live in Roxborough and as everyone knows by now that's not a great spot to be in. I have been going thru a range of emotions and thoughts about what is an impending evacuation (it now appears to be a matter of when not if) and getting organized for the KRMA hearing isn't high on the list. I may have to skip out on the hearing, at least this Wednesday's meeting. Please continue your efforts to get the petitions mailed to me - I will see that they get into the right hands at JeffCo.....

Geof
I'm sure everyone here wishes you and all your neighbors in Roxborough and the surrounding area good luck with the weather tomorrow so that your homes will be safe. I hope the A**HOLE that started this the Hayman fire enjoyed his friggin hot dogs. I would hope that anyone in the forum living in your area will offer storage space to anyone they know whose homes are in danger so they can get as many of their valuable possessions as possible into a safe a place. Good luck.

Echoing John's comments, I also wish you Geof and everyone else that lives in that area the best of luck.

Obviously more important matters than any TV.

Be safe.

Jeff

If it gets any closer, I'd be willing to come piss in your back yard -- if you thiunk it would help?!

(Hey, like with the petition, if there's a large enough number or people ...)

Good Luck

Hehe Ron - that might help the wildlife from claiming it as their territory but I don't think it will make much difference otherwise....

-----

Update:

Due to the Hayman fire and the potential evacuation I have “officially” requested to withdraw from testifying before the JeffCo planning board on June 12th. I have asked Ken Smith to keep me in mind for a later hearing (either before the Planning Board or the Board of County Commissioners). To that end please keep those petitions coming. I still plan to present these petitions to JeffCo and every signature will be beneficial.

Meanwhile, Ken was disappointed but understanding of my situation. He has requested volunteers to step up and testify (Ernie will be there). This is an opportunity to have your voice be heard so I encourage anyone to step up to the plate and take a swing….If you’re interested please call Ken Smith and discuss it with him. He has given me the okay to post his phone number – 303-592-5461.

All in all I’d rather be testifying instead of wondering if I’m watching my HDTV for the last time…….

Geof,

If you need space for storage let me know. I'll PM you my phone numbers.

Yes, i'll be at the meeting to testify. Hopefully, they'll be a few other positive community members and it won't be another bludge-fest. The 'Anti-Tower' van was out again yesterday in the neighborhood gathering signitures for their cause. They have quite the support structure!

P.S. Did anyone see Shrek the other night on HBO? Wow! It was spectacular! It's on again Thurs.

This is off ATT Cable website FAQ:


Is Digital Cable the same thing as HDTV (High Definition TV)?

No. HDTV refers to a specific kind of digital signal format that requires a special television set, which currently costs between $2000 and $3000! Digital Cable, on the other hand, works with the cable already wired to your existing TV. So there's no expensive equipment to buy.



What a joke! Talk about propaganda!

The Mount Morrison Tower hearing will resume today at 7:30 in the Jeffco Courthouse. Please attend if you can, and speak your mind (whether in favor of this application, HDTV in general, or even if you think this should not be approved.)

It is important to remember that only those that testify are heard, and if there is no support, the Planning Commission is not likely to assume that all those who don't speak are in favor of the plan. What they must assume is that if you don't speak, you don't care.

-Wabisabi

If anyone else would like to speak to the Commissioners, you'll need to be at the courthouse at 5pm to register. Then you will be called during the meeting to speak.

Originally posted by santellavision
If anyone else would like to speak to the Commissioners, you'll need to be at the courthouse at 5pm to register. Then you will be called during the meeting to speak.

I just spoke with the clerk to the planning commission, and she said you do not have to be there at 5:00 to sign up. She said that you can sign up as late as 7:25. (the hearing will start at 7:30 for the tower)

-Wabisabi

Wabasabi,

That's true, but i've been told that if you didn't signup early, you might not get a chance to speak tonight.

With the number of (S)cary people expected to come, it's gonna' be packed!

Only 18 people had signed up for individual testimony last week. Tonight, well over 50 additional people signed up. They heard testimony from 42 individuals, and three groups. When the hearing ended, there were still over 35 people signed up. Of the 42 individuals who spoke, 7 spoke in opposition and 35 spoke in favor. (By the way, Ernie did a great job.) Those who spoke in favor of the tower could be broken down into 3 general groups: those supporting CH6, those supporting Ch23 [Catholic TV] and those in support of HDTV. The most compelling testimony was from the last of these three groups. The least compelling was from the middle group. It was clear that Ch23 had asked people to come to the hearing and support the proposal. It seemed like Ch6 had done the same thing. I fear that this strategy has the potential to backfire on them.

If only a select few GOOD speakers had signed up to testify in favor of the towers, the hearing might have had a chance to end last night, with a majority of the testimony tonight in favor of the tower. This may have led to a vote to recommend approval of the tower to the BCC. Now, however, CARE will likely rally their forces and get more people signed up to testify at the next hearing (June 26th @2:30-ish). Since the next hearing is only scheduled for 2 hours, it is unlikely that they will do more than hear the remaining individual testimony.

Anyway, it was an interesting hearing with some colorful speakers, even if some of them had no clue what they were talking about.

-Wabisabi

Edit: Fixed typpo :)

Thanks for the reports wabisabi and thanks to all that showed up and spoke!

-John

Thanks for the info Wabisabi.

So far I have received 94 petition signatures. Keep those coming!!

In addition to signing the petitions, I suspect that letters to the planning commission & the commissioners would still be of value also.

Mark

Ya' know what i thought was interesting last night? The head commissioner said something to the fact of... it doesn't matter what programming comes out of the tower (PBS, Religious, whatever) they don't care, because that could change at any time and it doesn't matter. They are only concerned about zoning. Kinda' like, all they care about is that the trim on the door must match the application!

I loved the guy from Genesee that said;
I have a large home with 200 windows that i can look out of... but there are people in small apartments, whose TV's are their only windows to the world. That was Poetry!

Originally posted by santellavision

I loved the guy from Genesee that said;
I have a large home with 200 windows that i can look out of... but there are people in small apartments, whose TV's are their only windows to the world. That was Poetry!
Lucky for those of us in the unwashed masses he was not condescending about his personal wealth. :D

My apologies to all for not making the meeting to hear that comment. I had planned to speak as well, but had a schedule conflict for early in the evening, which was compounded by an newly discovered water problem. Fortunately my problems are trivial in comparison to those of Geof and his neighbors. Unlike Geof, whose difficulties come from the lack of water, mine have been coming from too much water. Basically, too much water on the garage and laundry room floor after anyone showers in the main bathroom above. I have had the plumbers over twice this week chasing the problem, and may or may not have it solved after cutting holes in several ceilings. I think we have fixed about 80% of the problem but still have some leakage from something (I am hoping just the tile around the tub). At least I have a lot of new "view-ports" (or maybe I should call them "windows to the world" in deference to our friend from Genesee) in my ceilings from which I can see the pipes and water up close and personal and in the face. Didn't want to leave a plumber alone in the house yesterday with a drywall saw in hand, so I had to miss the meeting. It does sound like there was a good showing of supporters for KRMA and the tower. That is a good thing regardless of how much it mobilizes (S)CARE.

PS
Before anyone has to ask, the audio/video gear and HDTV are safely tucked away in the viewing room in the 'dry' end of the house.

We're up to 104 petition signatures....

On a different note - terrible lip sync problem on KCNC toniight (CSI and The Agency). CSI also had a green cast. I thought the green cast might be my set but HDNet and KRMA-DT seem fine....

Wow, i thought it was just me, yes the color was off, it did look green to me, i thought my Michael Chen Calibrated set was going out of wack, but I changed over to HDNET, and it looked fine.

Any updates with the LCG?
Hope everything up there is going to be fine, my parents has a cabin
up off of Hwy 67 for a while, as we all went up there for campouts.

Cross your fingers for rain....

The lip sync problem was almost so bad that we were going to watch SD, but the picture (green though is was) is still worth putting up with the sound. Also noticed some tinny sounds just before a commercial at 8:15. Does anybody else report this stuff to David Layne at KCNC? He says he appreciates it!

My daughter was going to the Shady Brook Y camp but they cancelled the entire summer yesterday. WE were lucky and got her into another Y camp out of Pueblo called Camp Jackson. Pray for rain!

What's the deal here, you mean you guys weren't watching the Scotty Bowman retirement party from Detroit on ABC?

jm: I was going to watch channel 17, but since I am over 5 miles from downtown i don't get it.. I was going to put a 200 ft. TOWER in my backyard, but I don't think anyone would like that.

I was going to put a 200 ft. TOWER in my backyard, but I don't think anyone would like that.
That just might create (S)CARE 2 - Sleepless Crazed Aurora Residents for the Environment :)

Originally posted by pookers
jm: I was going to watch channel 17, but since I am over 5 miles from downtown i don't get it.. I was going to put a 200 ft. TOWER in my backyard, but I don't think anyone would like that.

What's that you say??? KMGH has a DTV channel????? How was I to know? And here I was stuck watching the SD stadium backhaul on one of the KU Satellites when I could have watched the show with local commercials. :D BUD's Rule! Even Discovery HD will be available on BUD's. Who needs OTA network anyway?? It can be a great alternative if you lived in an area where there is still no OTA DTV, like Denver for example.
:mad:

Actually I do kinda like the 200 foot Tower in the back yard concept. It would look great with a 12 foot BUD at the base on each side. You could hang some sort of "thank you "note to (S)CARE down the side of the tower so that they could better appreciate the visual image. Have you ever given that any thought?

Back on topic, has anyone heard any new rumors on the LCG application submittal date. No new news from this end.

I started a new thread to discuss KWGN-TV on-going efforts to get DTV on the air. It is titled "JeffCo's Denial of KWGN DTV permit" I probably should have posted here. The message reads:

Greetings:

I wanted to let this group know that KWGN is still trying to get approval from Jefferson County to build out our DTV facility at our property on Lookout Mountain. We have an extension from the FCC until Nov. 1, 2002.

KWGN filed a Telecommunications Permit with the County and it was denied. We are appealing this decision to the JeffCo Board of Adjustment on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 at 9am at the County Building (Taj Mahal).

This is a public hearing and the Board welcomes public input, especially from residents of Jefferson County. If you know anyone who lives in Jefferson County who supports our efforts to get DTV on the air, please encourage them to come to this hearing and let the Board of Adjustment know that there ARE people in JeffCo who want DTV.

Regards,
Don Rooney
Director of Operations & Engineering
KWGN-TV
KWGN-DT

Thanks for the info Mr Rooney - and welcome aboard.

Could you please go into the specifics of why your request was denied by the Planning Board? I think it would also be helpful if you could outline your proposal - do you plan on modifying your existing tower, add a new tower, what are the predicted RF Levels, etc...

Our plan invloves our existing, 450 foot main tower. No new tower construction in involved. The proposal has two main components:

First we get the two FM's KBPI & KALC to combine their existing two antennas into a single, combine antenna. Then we exchange an existing channel 57 antenna for a channel, 34 for DTV.

Even based on the restrictive zoning the county claims this tower to fall under, we feel we should be allowed to exchange these two antennas. The zonig regs. do allow the exchange of antennas designed to provide the same service, but they feel as though these are not the same service. Our position is that they are both Television service, as described by NIST.

Hope this helps.

Don

Don
Thanks for your post and welcome to the group. I believe you came to the right place. I am pleased to hear of your efforts to get DTV on the air although I am obviously not too thrilled on the results so far. It is not surprising you are meeting resistance. I am not sure how much help we can get at 9:00 AM in the morning, but this is sure the place to look for it. I guess at the very least, the more information you can provide us as to the reason for the rejection, the more information we could include in letters and comments to support you at that hearing. I would expect that part of the rejection is based upon the total radiated power from you antenna increasing, even though the number of antennas remains the same. Is that issue covered in your applications? Would it be possible for you to post on your KWGN web site a copy of your application, the letter of rejection, and the Jeffco rules relevant to your case (although if it is a part of the TULIP we probably already have copies of that) so people who could not come to the meeting can at least provide letters of support? Once again welcome aboard and thanks for letting us know about your plight. Here's hoping we can help.

The zoning regs. do allow the exchange of antennas designed to provide the same service, but they feel as though these are not the same service.This sounds like something the (S)CARE group thought up and then arm twisted JeffCo - i.e., NTSC does not equal ATSC. Of course the details of the modulation type probably influences cancer rates and every other ill (including lack of sleep) according to (S)CARE. Basically you are just modulating an RF carrier and providing video and audio signals to local area residents. The type of modulation you use to provide that service does NOT indeed change the type of service. I suppose an analogy would be wired phones versus wireless phones versus cellular phones... these are all phone services allowing one person to communicate with another. I know I am preaching to the choir but if this argument is successful it will have far reaching implications. That is, if (S)CARE is successful in convincing JeffCo that indeed these are different services they will be well positioned to argue the same point in several years when and if any broadcaster wishes to cease NTSC and convert their existing facilities to ATSC. In other words if they win they may then be able to prevent any broadcaster from converting their NTSC facilities into ATSC facilities. This would be a horrendous development and set precedence that local broadcasters may never be able to overcome. It would obviously be a HUGE victory for (S)CARE.

This cannot be allowed to happen....

Currently there is no definition of "SAME SERVICE" The CARE led proposed changes to the Zoning resolution provides this definition of same service:

ANTENNA DESIGNED TO PROVIDE SAME SERVICE: An antenna that is designed to transmit a signal of the same frequency and function and power level as the antenna that is being replaced. For example, an antenna designed for TV channel X is the same device as for TV channel X, but is not the same device as for TV channel Y, nor FM radio, etc. Digital TV or FM service is not the same service as analog TV or FM service. (orig. mm-dd-yy)

This definition has no foundation in science & we are fighting the implementation of this definition and would prefer one from NIST.

The U.S. Department of Commerce, National Telecommunications and Information Administration defines the following:
"Broadcasting Service: A radio communication service in which the transmissions are intended for direct reception by the general public. This service may include sound transmissions, television transmissions or other types of transmissions. (RR)
Broadcasting Station: A station in the broadcasting service. (RR)
Television: A form of telecommunication for the transmission of transient images of fixed or moving objects. (RR)

Don

Don,

What time will there be a sign-up sheet to speak at the
JeffCo hearing?

I will be happy to do so for you. I'm a Genesee resident. It appeared to me at the last Mt. Morisson tower hearing, if you weren't from 'These-Here-Hills' the commissioners didn't seem to pay as much attention as if you were from Genesee, Morrison or Lookout.

ANTENNA DESIGNED TO PROVIDE SAME SERVICE: An antenna that is designed to transmit a signal of the same frequency and function and power level as the antenna that is being replaced. For example, an antenna designed for TV channel X is the same device as for TV channel X, but is not the same device as for TV channel Y, nor FM radio, etc. Digital TV or FM service is not the same service as analog TV or FM service.This was exactly my fear. This will significantly narrow what broadcasters will be able to do and be an overwhelming obstacle. I certainly hope the BOA rules in your favor but if they do not this must be appealed to the courts as this re-definition will effectively put a (S)CARE noose around each broadcaster....You guys (area broadcasters) need to band together and fight this crap to the Colorado Supreme Court if necessary....

The hearing begins at 9am, so I imagine that the sign-up sheet will be out at least 1/2 hour before the hearing begins.

Don

Hi Don! While I don't know if I can make the meeting, a letter or something will be forthcoming!

-John

I don't know how well this would play, but what if KWGN just made the flippin' antenna swap without county approval under the guise that they are NOT changing what the tower is used for (still used for the transmission of TV signals).

sCARE protests, the county gets involved maybe (if they can find the time -- very busy schedule). They try to get KWGN-DT to cease transmitting. KWGN gets the FCC to define what a "similar use" is and slaps JeffCo into submission. Seems the FCC isn't too willing to help get something new approved, but I think they'd have some say in a rogue county trying to STOP (what would be at that time) existing ATSC transmissions.

Go ahead and shoot holes in my theory. I'll start. It's probably WAY too much hassle for KWGN. I think it would be interesting to watch it play out, though.

I don't know how well this would play, but what if KWGN just made the flippin' antenna swap without county approval under the guise that they are NOT changing what the tower is used for (still used for the transmission of TV signals). I bet if KWGN decided to go ahead and change out the Antenna without approval, the (S)Care folks will pull a "North Carolina" and threaten to lay-down in front of the antenna delivery truck! ;)

Seriously, This is a very important case with not only local , but national ramifications. It could effect not only us (especially if the LCG tower get's rejected) but all the stations around the country thinking they'll just delay and wait out the change (Chl 9, Ya' listening?)

I don't know how well this would play, but what if KWGN just made the flippin' antenna swap without county approval under the guise that they are NOT changing what the tower is used for (still used for the transmission of TV signals).This is exactly the type of thing that has been done in the past and is one of the reasons (S)CARE distrusts the local stations. If the stations don't play by the rules then they should be taken to task and suffer the consequences. Unfortunately they are paying for their previous misgivings now.....

Has there ever been a thorough investigation of the financial holdings of the JeffCo board members? Do any of them own property on Lookout Mountain? Did they in the past? Who pushed that zoning change through decades ago? Are they or any of their heirs currently benefitting financially in any way from the residential development on Lookout Mountain? Can you find a conflict of interest?

Someone pulled a fast one years ago, when they got that zoning changed. It wasn't a logical thing to do. Very short-sighted. Someone stood to gain who was instrumental in seeing that zoning change took place. This would make a juicy piece for one of those prime time news magazines. I'd wager they wouldn't want this held up to close examination. Those towers were there first. Why was it alright to build housing near the towers then. Now it's suddenly a huge health hazard?

My feelings exactly ! If all those (S)CARE people were so concerned about their health being affected by RF up there, WHY don't they sell and MOVE ?!?! I mean, the TOWERS were there first !

Somebody ought to do some background checks into what and why it happened...

Has there ever been a thorough investigation of the financial holdings of the JeffCo board members? Do any of them own property on Lookout Mountain? Did they in the past?Good Question. Hmmmm... I wonder what the reaction would be if i asked that at the next public hearing? Anybody know if they have to answer to 'Public Questions'?

The same could be asked of the (S)CARE members. Who among them owns undeveloped property on Lookout Mountain? Is that vested interest the true motivation for all the noise over health concerns? Once again, I'd wager this is all about property values and much less to do with electrical emissions. If it were me, I'd hammer that point home. (S)CARE hasn't played fair, why should you?

Once again, I'd wager this is all about property values and much less to do with electrical emissions.It is about property values. To that end the zoning board has to be concerned with property value issues. Property values determine county income and if they zoned a parcel such that it would have a negative impact on the surrounding neighborhood those neighbors would have a legitimate right to bitch. Now then most but not all of the homes on Lookout were built after the towers: There was some developed property before the towers were constructed. Those owners who had developed property before the towers were built could successfully argue that their values have not kept pace with similar areas due to the towers. I certainly want the new tower(s) built and and believe the majority of owners moved in after the towers existed and would reap windfall property escalation profits if the towers were removed. That said, the county has to balance the rights of all the owners (both groups who owned property prior to and after tower construction along with the stations) and right now most of the property is owned by someone other than the stations.

One last point - I am fairly certain that zoning did NOT exist when the towers were constructed: The towers already existed when zoning laws were passed. The majority of property was owned by entities others than the local stations hence the area was zoned agricultural and the towers were grandfathered in. Some time after that (a long time after that) the county established the Jefferson County telecommunications Land Use Plan (TLUP) that laid down the rules by which modifications and expansion of telecommunications properties could develop. This document is freely available on the Jefferson County web pages. The (S)CARE group has been successful in lobbying the county to make very narrow interpretations of that document and indeed have presented even more restrictive language on "type of system" and what not as outlined by Don Rooney. Since (S)CARE is actively involved with these issues and there is not an equal and opposite force opposing these restrictive interpretations and proposed new definitions they have been very successful in getting things their way. The way to fight this is not to resurrect what happened 50 years ago or start mug slinging or going around their backs and doing it anyway, but rather fight them in the court of public opinion. If enough JeffCo residents opposed the restrictive interpretations and the new proposed definitions balance would be restored so that the Zoning board and Commissioners would be obligated to consider more than just the one side. To that end the stations have done a dreadful job (and actually hinder themselves) because they tend to be very secretive about their plans. There are numerous examples where the stations tried to keep the "public out" and the KWGN-DT application is but the latest example. At no time (that I'm aware of) did they elicit public support and in fact they are still somewhat less than forthright about their current dilemma. The LCG and KRMA are finally realizing (apparently) the "power of the public" on these matters and have solicited our help with their recent applications. We shall see if this is enough but I suspect it will be a huge help - only time will tell is that can overcome their past misdeeds and the (S)CARE mass......

I am not trying to present (or defend) the (S)CARE case but I think we all need to understand both sides...

To answer JM's question a few posts ago, I have word from an unimpeachable source that the LCG application will go before the Planning Commission next March.

John in Jeffco

From the last public meeting (about a month ago) the LCG said the application would be submitted soon after that (Like now)

Now your saying, it'll be March '03 before it gets heard?
What's up? Ouch! It's lookin' like i'm gonna have to get ExpressVu to watch ABC & NBC-HD :(

When I spoke with Pete McNally just before the last public session, he said he expected the application to be submitted within a few weeks unless some unexpected question was raised. If the application is submtted and the planning commission does not even hear the application until March I think someone in Jeffco will have a LOT of explaining to do to the public and the FCC as well.

As for the comments about the financial motivations of Jeffco commissioners, it would indeed be interesting to see where they or their families own properties. I believe it was discussed and published a year of so ago that Deb Carney lives in the Lookout or Genesee area. Most of the members of (S)CARE obviously live there too. Even though they all live in the area and stand to reap windfall profits on their properties if the towers were shut down, we all know (wink, wink....) it is not about the money it is about the health issues (wink, wink....).

It is always about the money. The (S)CARE tactics of questioning existing and well recognized national safety standards gives that one away. On the strict interpretation issue, I would not expect a lot of support for the loose interpretation. I suspect most people in the county do not want anything like cell phone, other FM towers etc. springing up in their back yards either, so the majority are likely to support the strict interpretation even if they are not even near Lookout. That would be a case where the FCC and the courts would have to intervene. I am afraid that what I see barring a change of attitude from the commissioners themselves is a long court case for KWGN. The beauty of the (S)CARE position is that even if it doesn't make sense, they can still tie this whole thing up in court for many many years. The problem with our side is that we have too many engineers, and not enough lawyers supporting our cause, and none of us stand to gain anything financially if the towers do go up on Lookout. Hence the lack of motivation when compared to Deb and the (S)CARE folks.

Originally posted by santellavision

Seriously, This is a very important case with not only local , but national ramifications. It could effect not only us (especially if the LCG tower get's rejected) but all the stations around the country thinking they'll just delay and wait out the change (Chl 9, Ya' listening?) [/B]

OTOH, if other cities/communities begin to follow Denver's lead, that may actually elevate the issue to the point where the FCC actually does something about this. It simply isn't fair to the community or to the broadcasters to force the stations into obsolescence via new zoning restrictions after the towers are already grand-fathered into existence. The FCC needs to make this activity illegal just as they did with zoning-out new rooftop antennas and small satellite dishes on homes. If there's justification for preventing stations from keeping with the technology, the landowners need to take this up with the federal government to remove the issue of property values from influencing the decisions.

Originally posted by JMartinko
On the strict interpretation issue, I would not expect a lot of support for the loose interpretation. I suspect most people in the county do not want anything like cell phone, other FM towers etc. springing up in their back yards either, so the majority are likely to support the strict interpretation even if they are not even near Lookout. That would be a case where the FCC and the courts would have to intervene.

I pray for the day somebody like that intervenes. Particularly the FCC. At least on some level.. even if they wouldnt have any sort of absolute power. I should think it's fairly obvious by now that if left to the actual participants themselves, it's never going to get done. It's time somebody else with clout steps in and asks what the HELL is going on here. This issue is going to be solved, it's going to be solved right (to the best of mans engineering abilities) and it's going to get done on the most logical site all things considered by a competent 3rd party. If it's deemed it should be somewhere slightly other than where the stations want, too bad. If it's exactly where they've always been and the Nimby's dont like it, too bad.

Course I wont be holding my breath mind you, but again it's just that it would be nice if SOMEBODY would let all the party's know that they *are* watching and EXPECTING, downright demanding, a timely resolution to this matter after 3 years of dicking around. This changeover, and I dont care if some people think "it's only tv".. is to be done based on an Act of Congress afterall.. we're not talking about simply wanting to build a freakin community swimming pool.

we're not talking about simply wanting to build a freakin community swimming pool.The NIMBY's would come up with something like...
Chlorine is bad, remember WWI and Chlorine Gas, well, that might cause Cancer or add to our Sleep Disorders, So, we must fight pools! :p

This is post number 2000 for me so I thought I'd "return home" to post it....

So far 125 petition signatures...anymore last minute signee's??

Geof
Congratulations on post 2000. It is too bad that 1000 or so of those were probably spent (I almost said 'wasted', but that wouldn't be fair to you) here in this thread with so little OTA HDTV resulting from all the effort. For you I guess the good news is your house is still standing and the HDTV still works. Let's hope we get a lot more rain tonight and they start to get that fire under control.

For you I guess the good news is your house is still standing and the HDTV still works. Let's hope we get a lot more rain tonight and they start to get that fire under control.We're still "On Standby" but yes, things could be far worse. I don't really want to think about what this state may look like by the end of the summer. Now they're even reporting a fire in RMNP....

Funny you should mention my HDTV still working - yes, my HDTV still works but for awhile I was thinking it would require another board replacement. Soundtrack came out yesterday to look over a stability problem with the intensity of green. The damn intensity was all over the place and I feared they'd have to replace a board. That might still happen but it looks like the problem was with a loose connector. So far it's been holding steady and it doesn't look like I'll need to have the set re-ISF'd....