CSI last night had lots of periods of tinny sounds and then long periods of the sound cutting in and out. Finally, had to go to SD on satellite. I sent David Layne at KCNC an email (as I have done before) and asked him why this problem cannot be addressed. A great HD picture is wonderful, but you do need sound to follow the story.

Does anybody know if this problem occurs in other cities around the country on CBS?

David Layne just sent me a response to my email asking what was the technical problem they were having:

Dennis - as a short answer, I assigned one of our senior maintenance Tec's
to this problem as his only and full time job until it's solved. Replacement
equipment has been ordered and is due here today on an overnight priority
shipment (we were told it shipped from Canada on Thursday). When it arrives - it will be installed the same day. I had been waiting to e-mail you until we have it on line, at which point I will ask you and the Forum viewers to post us on the results.

As a side note, we know of at least three other television stations working
to solve this exact same HD digital audio problem. Ironically all three
stations installed digital HD audio equipment within a three month of each
other.

Thanks for your patience - we too want this solved.

Dave Layne

Could we finally be approaching good, consistent sound on KCNC? Here's hoping that the new equipment will solve the problem! David's got to be even more frustrated with the problems than we are.

The series Evolution will be fed in HD on Saturday, June 22 from Noon-3:00pm (MT).

The frequency is will be on (RX-IF=1379).

These programs will be broadcast on KRMA DT-18.

-John {ya'll got 7 minutes to fire your HDTV's up ;) }

Anybody going to support KWGN at the JeffCo meeting Weds@9am? I think i'll be able to make it. I bet there won't be a big (S)care presence. Most won't be able to get up that early because of their lack of sleep :p

9:00AM is early enough that I wouldn't miss to much work. I may see you there! Thanks for the heads-up!

-John

The 3rd KRMA Planning Board meeting is also tomorrow (in the afternoon). Unfortunately I have a prior committment and will be unavailable to support either cause.

I wish I could, but I'm going on vacation on Thursday and have way too much work to get done before I leave.

Hello Everyone..

We have made some changes and equipment upgrades trying to Trace down this audio problem in our HDTV Signal..

If you all could listen to it for the next couple of days and let us know how it sounds or if there are any problems like the "Tinnyness" or the "Cyborg" effects.

Just to let you know about the "Pops" you hear when we switch between our upconverted source and the HDTV Feed and whenever we go to the full screen slate is caused by a temporary switcher CBS has had us install.. our Real Switcher won't be finished being built by the Manufacturer till sometime in the Fall.

Thanks!
Bob Rudeseal
KCNC TV Engineering
"Thanatos"

Bob, Thanks for the update. I will listen in and let you know, just not tonight with the Rockies in HD on HDNET at 8:00.

Jeff

Wow, a real name for our friend, Thanatos! Did David finally let you come out of hiding? :D Thanks for the info Bob - I'll definitely be watching tonight to see how it works.

I was watching last night and noticed the color washing out of the picture as well as the tinny audio. Just letting you know (Bob). I have been following this thread and know about the equipment challenges you are up against. Hopefully all will be resolved soon.
I'm using a SIR-T150, approx. @ County Line and Quebec.
Thanks

Bob,

The audio problems still persist. I watched the last half of JAG from around 7:30 to 8:00 - a lot of static in the audio, and from about 7:45 to 7:50 or so, the audio was extremely tinny. At 7:50, the tinniness went away, but the audio was still filled with static. The static carried into The Guardian at 8:00, which I watched for about 5 minutes. At 9, I turned back over and the sound was clear at the beginning of Judging Amy.

We would also email you the results if you'll post your email address here.

I'm also still hearing the audio problems on KCNC. Audio was especially 'tinny' while watching Judging Amy.

- Dustin

Thanks Everyone for checking out and letting us know what our HD Signal really sounds like in the field. I or another Engineer usually check this thread on a daily basis..

I wanted to say thanks for helping us out like this. It may be a while before we finally get this fixed as most HD equipment out there is 1st or 2nd Generation and getting updates and fixes may take longer then we would want.. But we want to get this going just as much as you guys do..

Bob Rudeseal
KCNC TV Engineering

Bob,

The sound on Judging Amy was tinny for a portion of the show and then cleared up very well at 9:25 after an audible click.

Jeff

I went to the JeffCo KWGN replacement antenna meeting at the Taj. There was only 3-4 people other than the stations representatives and (S)care. My gut feeling is that it will be approved.

The case before the commitee was to let KWGN replace an old antenna on it's tower with a new antenna. So, it was just an replacement, not a new zoning. But, the jist of it, comes down to semantics. What is 'Use' vs. 'Service'?

(S)care's basic argument was that it is not a replacement, but a new zoning because it's digital and not analog, and it's not the same. Didn't seem to really fly with anybody... (Except them)

KWGN then made a great case for the fact that television service is television service (as stated in previous JeffCo documents) similar to mobile phones. It's a cell phone, whether it's analog or digital. And the fact that the Antenna is just an Antenna. It's neither Digital or Analog. The transmitter determines if it's digital or analog - Excellent Point!

So anyway, i was one of a couple to testify and was all set to do so with a good little speech about the new antenna being 'Directional', so less RF on Lookout & Genesee, etc, etc., When, that 'Back-to-the-future-looking-engineer-guy' Al Hislop get's up there and states that the new antenna will be OMNI directional and Not Directional!! AGGGHH!!!!
I had asked Don Rooney from KWGN if it was going to be directional and i thought he said it was, but then Al puts up this chart and now i'm thinking... did i hear him wrong? Am i going to make a fool of myself? So, i didn't mention anything about directional antennas being better for the community etc. but did mention that the continuation of Free TV is important to the all our communities. And that this decision not only effects JeffCo, but all of Denver, Boulder, and even Ft. Collins. Turns out, Al Hislop was (how do i say this without calling him a lier) not exactly telling the Jeffco commitee the truth! Now i'm certain, you can't believe any of them... they make most of this stuff up!

I think JeffCo said they'd have an answer around July 26th.

Turns out, Al Hislop was (how do i say this without calling him a lier) not exactly telling the Jeffco commitee the truth! Now i'm certain, you can't believe any of them... they make most of this stuff up!

Actually, Al Hislop was just using the data on the FCC's web site that shows what KWGN's construction permit is for.

Also, Don Rooney did not know that the FCC limits for exposure to RFR were frequency based. This does not mean that he lied when he said the standard was 200 micro-watts.

I think you are correct in your assessment that it all comes down to the meaning of "use" versus "service".

It will be an interesting decision.

-Wabisabi

On September 16th, 2000 I sent the following letter to the FCC with copies to the local stations, KCNC, KRMA, KMGH and KUSA:

"September 16th, 2000

Federal Communications Commission
445 12th Street
Room TW-B204
Washington DC 20554-0001


Dear Sir or Madam:
I am aware that there are some issues preventing the construction (or modification) of transmission towers that are required by several local Denver stations to broadcast HDTV. These issues are still not resolved and when construction schedules are considered the delay in implementing HDTV in Denver is likely to exceed 2 years (or more). The local stations are accusing the Jefferson County Commissioners for this delay and Jefferson County officials are saying the delay is due to the local stations. I do not know what to believe. It appears that concerned individuals do not have the necessary "clout" to investigate, understand, and help resolve these issues. Therefore, I am requesting the Federal Communications Commission investigate these issues and take appropriate actions to help expedite this matter. Further delays in broadcasting HDTV in Denver are not acceptable to me.
Sincerely,


CC:
Ms. Magalie Roman Salas
Secretary
Federal Communications Commission
445 12th Street, Room TW-B204
Washington, DC 20554-0001

Chairman William Kennard
Federal Communications Commission
445 12th Street, Room TW-B204
Washington, DC. 20554-0001

KCNC
ATTN: General Manager
P.O. Box 5012
Denver, CO. 80217-5012

KRMA
ATTN: James Morgese
1089 Bannock Street
Denver, CO. 80204 80204-4067

KMGH
ATTN: Cindy Velasquez
123 Speer Boulevard
Denver, CO. 80203-3417

KUSA
ATTN: Roger Ogden
P.O. Box 9
Denver, CO. 80201-0009"

Today, when I got home I found a message on my answering machine from the FCC wanting to discuss my letter. It took them over One Year and Nine Months to read my letter.

I called the FCC and found out that the Democrats did nothing since they were on their way out and the Republicans just sat on my letter until some kind employee found it and called me. She is going to send it to the correct office, which is Media Bureau, Video Program Servcices headed by an Attorner named Mike Perko. I was told someone in that office would be contacting me.

This really shows that the Republican controlled FCC does not care what the citizens of the United States want. It appears they are beholden to the broadcasters they are supposed to regulate and just grant waivers and do nothing to get full power digital TV on the air.

I am really upset that Chairman Powell could run a Commission that is so ineffective that they take nearly two years to respond to mail.

If it had not been for a lowly Civil Service FCC employee who found my letter and called me, it would probably still be in someones HOLD box.

Well, I will see if someone from Mike Perko's office calls me.

If you had addressed the letter to the FCC, Mass Media Bureau, (now Media Bureau), Video Services Division. It might have helped. As someone who deals the the FCC a lot I can tell you its not a partisan problem. Its red tape.. Probably the letter has been passed around until someone figured out what to do with it.


William

With any letter or request (re HDTV) at board meetings, etc. it must include the mentioning of getting a proposal that will not only take care of Denver, but up and down the Front Range. No half-way measures should be accepted.

We are all in this together. Everyone with any sense of quality North and South of Denver would love to be able to put up a good antennae and receive all the local HD stations clean and clear.


Thanks!

Dan Hitchman

Fort Collins resident.

Thanks for the KWGN update guys. I hope someone can report on the KRMA hearing this afternoon. I am sorry I missed this but today just didn't work out for me.

As far as the FCC is concerned I don't think we need to get political here but just to add my 2 cents I don't think the previous FCC Chairman did a damn thing to promote HDTV and I'll go so far as to say that his tenure hurt the transition. At least Powell is making some sort of attempt to get the ball rolling with his "plan" albeit because of a kick in the ass from Congress. In the end I believe William Smith is correct with red tape & bureaucracy.

Originally posted by William Smith
If you had addressed the letter to the FCC, Mass Media Bureau, (now Media Bureau), Video Services Division. It might have helped. As someone who deals the the FCC a lot I can tell you its not a partisan problem. Its red tape.. Probably the letter has been passed around until someone figured out what to do with it.


William

Old time posters to this thread know that in September 2000 a sample letter to the FCC was posted. I used this letter and signed my name.

I addressed the letter exactly as requested in the the SAMPLE letter posted in this Forum in September 2000. There was no mention of sending it to the attention of the Mass Media Bureau. We were asked to send it to the FCC and local stations just as I did.

Geof, the original poster of the SAMPLE letter asked for comments before posting the final letter. Why did you not tell us in September 2000 to mark our letters to the attention of the Mass Media Bureau.

I have found the original post here on 9-16-00 at 11:57 AM by Geof (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61305&perpage=30&highlight=Denver%20Tower&pagenumber=6) . Geof's comments were: "Here is a sample letter to the FCC. Please feel free to paste this letter into a text program, add your name , print it out, and send it to the address(es) shown below. Of course, it can also be modified as desired, but even this simple "form" letter will demonstrate your support for the DTV transition. The important thing is for our voices to be heard. I hope each individual takes a few minutes to send this letter (or one of his/her own choosing). We cannot solve this problem, or speed up the solution, if we do not let the "powers that be" know about our concerns and this is definitely a case where each voice counts." and then he posted the SAMPLE Letter which I sent to the FCC.

Geof,

I also went to the KRMA meeting at the Taj. It was to start at 2:30 but didn't get going until about 3:40!

Unfortunately, i couldn't stay 'til the end. But they listened to the remainder of the public that signed up at the last meeting and didn't get to speak because of time.

Lots of tower/station bashing as expected. Most just rambling with no clue. But there was one guy from idledale that was exceptionally well spoken. And again, I don't know what happend at the end, i had to leave.

-------------------

On a related note. I got a call from Carol Lomond of the City & County View (Or should i call it the City & County One-sided View! She called and said she wanted to 'interview' me. I think she listenend to my speech at one of the JeffCo meetings. She said i had a 'different' opinion of the tower issue. What a crock!

We started chatting about why i was in favor of DTV, consolidating and Improving the tower/antennas etc. It went back & forth for a while and then she started to argue with me. I think it really surprised her that i was so well versed on the situation and the technology. I had all the 'right' answers to her questions and she didn't have answers to mine. She then got really pissed-off and called me a 'Whore'! What a nice lady, huh? I came this close to calling her a C**T. But of course, i'm a gentleman and just hung-up on her.

Thanks Ernie,
I would like to know what happened but I guess a decision is pending - unless they scheduled another hearing.....
Was the fellow from Idledale for or against the application?

It sounds like the City & County View "reporter" isn't very professional if she started arguing with you...clearly show the bias in that pond scum rag. I wonder how many folks get that and understand it is nothing more than very biased opinion??

As far as the addressing of the FCC letter I probably posted that address and I think I got it from Richard Adams. I guess it doesn't matter at this point but if the FCC is interested in talking with you you can basically say nothing much has happened since you sent it, which sort of proves your point.

They finished taking public testimony from everyone who had signed up on June 12th. Then they closed public testimony (so no-one who signed up for the first time yesterday could speak). The next hearing will be on July 17th at 6:00 PM. They will listen to the applicant's responses to issues raised by the public, and ask questions of the applicant and staff.

Who knows, they may even vote that day.

-Wabisabi

Thanks Wabisabi.....do you know if they have scheduled hearings before the Commissioners?

Geof,

The Idledale guy was very sincere and i noticed the panel was paying attention. Most of the time the panel doesn't pay complete attention. They look off or get up, leave the room or chat amongst themselves.

His big point was that all through the years, and all through the illegal towers and illegal antennas that have been added, nobody ever gets fined, or worse, gets booted off. Then why do we keep condoning these illegal things to happen? And worse, we keep accepting more applications from them, like nothing happened.

'Ya know, I agree with that.

OK, here's my fix to this DTV situation...
Let's get all the stations, the County and the Governor (even though i don't like him) together and settle this.
This is really a state issue too, not just JeffCo. The effects of these decisions do effect about 3/4 of the population. It's only going to get worse as we all know. We have KRMA doing there app. LCG doing there's. The rest of the small low-power stations going to have to do something soon too. So it's going to be one battle after another about zoning or replacements, whatever, and then the court appeals etc. It's never gonna end!

OK, Here's the plan...
The stations form one group and joint own two towers.
Give all the land to the county with rights for it's use as it has been. Some stations won't be as happy, but most will and i think they would agree that this is not only do-able, but affordable & practical. The two towers would be, One normal-size on Lookout (Like LCG proposes with all directional antennas) and the other on Morrison (Directional and placed under the ridgeline like PIC/BCDC Plan B now proposes) and take down all the rest. All of 'em, even the infamous 9 radar dome. Let them build that out east. It doesn't need to be very high. Put all the other users (Radio Stations, Mobile, Police, City etc.) all on the two towers.

Why these two you ask? Two towers would also lower the RF from all these users on one supertower. (Plus, I don't think they technically could put all those antennas on one tower) Eldorado is out due to the interference to the QZ. Squaw is out due to the problems with reception-shadowing and the danger due to distant fire station protection. The front range is also out because of signal reflections off the mountains and of course DIA.

So, the only logical location is where it has been for many, many years. (Also, because it was analyzed and deceided back then as the 'best' location in the area)

This way we can solve almost all of the concerns. (Not the NIMBY's & BANANA's concerns of course) But the concerns of most of the public in the Lookout Mt. area (Like Me) and the MAJORITY of the viewers in Boulder, Ft. Collins and Denver effected by this travesty!

Bottom Line.
A) It Lowers the RF on Lookout and Morrision tremendously.
B) Improves the scenic beauty of Lookout and Mt. Morrison dramatically.
C) Makes it afforable for all the stations to get DTV on the air in our lifetime.
D) Ends this litany of Hearings and Meetings that are tying up the JeffCo Commissioners, Courts, Lawyers and Citizens time.

I think it makes sense, what'd you guys think?
Let's call the Gov and get this started!

Ernie for Governor!

:)

One way we could kick this off is with calls to the Mike Rosen talk show (again). I think he has Bill Owens on from 10:00-11:00 on the first Monday of each month. That would be this upcoming Monday, no?

Since he has already addressed the issue on his show once, he will be half-way familiar with the issue, and if we decide to make it an active attempt to get on the air with Ernie's solution, we could email him ahead of time, letting him know we are coming. (and we could fill him in on background information since the last show).

-John

Not to sound pessimistic, but this "plan" has about as much chance of succeeding as the infamous one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest. For starters, why would Bear Creek Development (BCD) agree to giving up their land?

The stations form one group and joint own two towers.
Give all the land to the county with rights for it's use as it has been. Some stations won't be as happy, but most will and i think they would agree that this is not only do-able, but affordable & practical.

BCD are (is?) not a broadcaster, they are a site owner. There is nothing affordable or practical for them in this plan.

Further, what incentive would FOX have for tear down a perfectly legally zoned tower and transmitter building? Also, what incentive would KKHK/KOSI have to move to a new site having just replaced their antenna?

The list of difficulties with this plan could go on and on....

I admire the noble goal of solving the tower problems, but I see no solution that will make the lawyers go away. (After all, if the lawyers were no longer needed to work on tower issues, what would they do with all their free time?)

-Wabisabi

P.S. This is not meant as any kind of attack on Ernie, just a reminder that most simple solutions are not really simple when you look at the details.

I'm not sure I meant Ernie's plan in specific, but I do think that it will take getting the Governer involved to get this thing done. The specifics of his plan will take lawyers etc, but the overall process, bringing in the Gov, having him light a fire under the appropriate agencies, I think is a good one. The benefits of a a coordinated plan should be obvious, and the governer is in the position to see them, state wide, and act to get them done.

-John

I sure want this issue resolved and don't want to come across the wrong way but I do agree with Wabisabi on the practicality of the plan. I also don't think the governor is the least bit interested in getting into this mess. What political motivation would he have? I mean it's not like there are 1000's of people clamoring to get H/DTV. We collectively managed to get 125 signatures on the petition - not quite an overwhelming number compared to the population of the state. Further, any "intervention" by anyone into the local affairs of a county would not be welcome and would be construed in the wrong manner. Planning and Zoning issues are county functions - counties all across this country work difficult zoning issues all the time. No one wants power plants or garbage dumps in their backyards (to name but two examples). Unfortunately the process takes time and energy. And energy is something that has been sorely lacking in previous applications. I do agree that there might be a time when someone (i.e., the courts) may have to step in and help resolve the issue but until the county processes run their due course any outside intervention (or "help") is premature. Can anyone here honesty state they'd accept the governor putting pressure on their elected county officials to put a sewer plant (or a prison, or a ...) on an empty lot next door to their home?

Keep in mind that a large part of this problem duly lies at the doorsteps of the stations themselves. As Ernie stated, one speaker said something to the effect of "....that all through the years, and all through the illegal towers and illegal antennas that have been added, nobody ever gets fined, or worse, gets booted off. Then why do we keep condoning these illegal things to happen? And worse, we keep accepting more applications from them, like nothing happened. ". Previous actions of the stations are coming home to roost - there is much distrust built up and that will take a significant effort to overcome. The LCG plan makes an effort in this area with their willingness to enter into a legal agreement with the county to resolve issues quickly or face consequences. In my mind that's a grand opportunity for the Lookout area residents because their current alternative is to fight problems thru less direct means....

One last point - a plan is only as good as the intentions to carry thru on said plan. To that end where the hell is the LCG application? Remember when they were saying this would all be resolved by summer? Perhaps they meant the summer of '03 and we all missed that "minor detail" but given the length of time to get this thru the county that's probably a realistic timeframe - assuming they actually submit a plan this summer.....

I guess what I am trying to say is that I remain unconvinced the problem lies within Jefferson County. Yes, the Commissioners rejected a couple of incomplete or poorly thought out proposals but is that not their job? For example, rejection of the first LCG proposal may eventually result in a much stronger plan that is better suited to Lookout residents and the County alike. In my mind the group that needs pressuring is the stations themselves but until recently the FCC wasn't willing to do that - in Denver or with any of the other 1200 or so delinquent stations.

Geof I realize that political motivations may drive someone like a governor (grin) but... from you own words, this is a tiny issue, state wide. We are 125, they are 10,000. Tiny.

So why not try and take the easy road out. The political road. Get Bill Owens to pressure JeffCO and pass an antennae, or two, or three?

It's political, no?

-John

JohnJr,
Why take a change of alienating the main populace for just a few - for example, there might be many folks who hope HDTV never makes it because they don't want to replace 4 household TV's.

----

So far sound on KCNC-DT has been great tonight.....(now almost halfway thru The Agency)

Wabisabi,

No offense taken! You're right, i'm sure it would never happen, but my thought was that, all the stations are going to have to go through this, either now or in the future to get anything added or changed to their existing blgds. or towers. Even the happy FM's and KDVR (i.e. new or replacement antenna's or frequency/power changes etc.) I think if there are two approved sites, it would make the future for JeffCo and all broadcasters much easier. Even though, say the LCG plan gets approved. There's not enough room on their tower for all the stations (including Low Power) to be on it. So, more legal battles. I guess it just seems to me that why can't JeffCo be more 'Proactive' and try to bring all the parties (Stations, Scare, County) to the table and negotiate a plan that would be best for all?
Hell, we can do it at my house, i'll supply the beer! ;)

why can't JeffCo be more 'Proactive' and try to bring all the parties (Stations, Scare, County) to the table and negotiate a plan that would be best for all?

Actually, a few years ago they did try just that. They arranged a "round table" discussion with area broadcasters, low power providers, CARE, site owners and the FCC. During the second meeting the representative from the FCC stormed out after being the brunt of scorn and name calling from CARE. What is funny is that the second meeting was more calm than the first (when the FCC was not present, if I recall correctly). In a nutshell, after two heated meetings, not a single shred of common ground was discovered so no more meetings were held.

-Wabisabi

It doesn't sound like those meetings were run very well. There should be only one representative from (S)care and they should only be allowed to speak at a certain time. Time limits should be limited to that group as they are not the ones deciding the situation.

I think I'll bring that up at the next public hearing!

I forgot to mention that that b*tch from the local rag (who called me a whore) mentioned that Squaw is about the only solution that (S)care will live with. I love the fact that they say all towers are bad, Any RF is bad, the Scenic blight is bad, blah, blah, blah. But just as long as it's not in their sandbox.

But, wait... it's ok to build that ugly tower, radiate the deer, elk, mt. goats, hikers, block the scenic views, and create a fire hazard with no local fire protection on someone else's hilltop, what a bunch of two-faced lyers!

P.S. Lastly, we can still do it at my place, but (S)care brings their own 'flippin' beer!:p

Originally posted by Geof

So far sound on KCNC-DT has been great tonight.....(now almost halfway thru The Agency) [/B]


Thanks Geof,

I have bypassed some Frame Syncs that we think are the cause of the ccrc errors.. If this hold's up, we are gonna look into getting them replaced permanently.

Also, Last night we got our Closed Captioning on-line.. It is on the CC1 Service and is in the EIA-708B Format.. Enjoy!

I am gonna be gone all next week, gonna check out the clean, smoke free skies of Montana for the 4th of July.. You all have a good AMERICAN Holiday! The other engineers will be keeping an eye on this forum in case anyone posts any problems..

Thanks again everyone!


Bob Rudeseal
KCNC Engineering

KCNC-DT sounded good again last Sat. I watched 1 1/2 episodes of "the District" and nary a hint of sound issues...keep those frame syncs bypassed :)

The sad thing about HDTV avaliability here in the front range is that even small towns will have full HDTV capability before us, alot already do. Where I am origionally from (Little Rock, Arkansas) all stations I believe are already operating with DTV.

I thought Colorado was supposed to be a leading technology state? Isn't this what the Governor's supposed Office of Technology is supposed to promote..Colorado as a leading technology state..What a laugh.

I do think the state needs to get involve to force all parties to agree on something, especially if the next LCG app fails again. There is a such a thing as a stalemate and in that case, someone has to step in and say this is the way its going to be..Period.

- Dustin

especially if the next LCG app fails again
They are going to submit a new app? I've heard rumors to that effect since last year but I think that may be a LCG con job....These people are so full of crap and hot air - why does everyone think this is a JeffCo problem????

Originally posted by Geof

They are going to submit a new app? I've heard rumors to that effect since last year but I think that may be a LCG con job....These people are so full of crap and hot air - why does everyone think this is a JeffCo problem????

Geof,

JeffCo is, in my view, a huge part of the problem. Look at how long it takes to get _anything_ done. The risk of starting the process over due to some technicality is daunting, to say the least. Frankly, the process looks broken to me. A small band of vocal opponents can hold things up as long as they like.

Look at how JeffCo has blocked minor modifications to existing structures--the KCNC temporary digital transmitter, and now KWGN's DTV transmitter. These shouldn't have required any re-zoning, except that JeffCo has decided to take the most restrictive viewpoint possible.

Nevertheless, I have no idea what is currently holding up LCG.

Mark

I am not familiar enough with either the KCNC temporary digital transmitter or the KWGN's DTV transmitter case to know/understand if JeffCo was right or wrong. I will admit that from what we know it looks as if JeffCo is at fault but I am sure there is more to the story then we've been told. Regardless, the stations past deeds have probably hardened JeffCo officials to make them really scrutinize anything and everything submitted by the stations. As you know there is a lot of rancor because of past shenanigans and it's just human nature to not want to keep getting screwed over and over by the same group of people.

As to the length of time to get stuff though the county, sure it's frustrating and it's very time consuming. I am not 100% sure but I don't think this is out of the ordinary. In other words I suspect that the average amount of time to process any major controversial re-zoning is about the same anywhere in the US (within reason). If I recall correctly I remember hearing that, on average, the time to get any major facility (i.e., a power plant) approved was more than 5 years....

My bottom line is this: The LCG hasn't presented any proposal to Jefferson County in this century. It's been what, 3 years now since their last proposal (perhaps 2 years since it was rejected) - how the hell is JeffCo responsible for that?

Geof,

A) By rejecting the first proposal
B) by rejecting every other proposal that has come up to date.
C) by not saying, if you build this, we'll pass it
D) by being hog-tied by a vocal minority
E) by not being common sensical
F) by not honoring property rights

Those are some of the reasons I blame JeffCO on the delay. I think that a stalemate is a good term at this point, and I do think that it will take an outside source to decide. Period.

-John

A) By rejecting the first proposal The first proposal was incomplete (i.e., the Browne report was submitted way way late).
The first proposal did not meet all the requirements of the Jefferson County Telecommunications Land Use Plan.
The first proposal had RF level problems.
The first proposal had safety issues.
These are all very sound reasons for rejecting the first proposal.

B) by rejecting every other proposal that has come up to date.I've already stated that I do not have all the facts on the KCNC low power application nor the KWGN application. So far all I've heard is from the station side - and then not all our questions were answered. It could be the rejections were unreasonable but until I hear both sides of the story no sound conclusion can be reached. If anyone can shed light on this I am more than willing to listen. In the meantime I do not factor these rejections into my reasoning because of incomplete and one-sided information.

Secondly, the Eldorado rejection was well founded - I would have voted against it.

C) by not saying, if you build this, we'll pass itDo we know this? If so how do we know this? Then again, is it JeffCo's responsibility to tell the stations how to do do it? Should they tell every applicant how to change their proposal so that it passes muster? Regardless, I do believe the reasons of the first rejection were given - the prudent thing would be to take those comments and incorporate them into "Plan B". So far "Plan B" has been promised for almost two years yet there is still no "plan B" submitted to JeffCo. Why?
D) by being hog-tied by a vocal minority Whether we like it or not listening to the affected property owners is part of the process. JeffCo not only should listen, they'd be woefully negligent if they did not. If most everyone in your neighborhood was against a porno store across the street from your house but your County Commissioners said the hell with the property owners and approved a porno super store (or a super porno store :) )how would you feel?

E) by not being common sensical Maybe.

F) by not honoring property rights Huh? The stations property is not zoned for this use. It needs to be rezoned to permit the use. JeffCo is listening to the affected property owners and is honoring their property rights. I don't like the results but that's the way it should be. It is incumbent upon the stations to demonstrate that their application is sound and meets all county requirements. Should JeffCo give the stations the benefit of the doubt and ignore the other property owners?

---

I am not saying I like everything JeffCo has done. Nor am I saying they haven't made mistakes. What I am saying is that given all the information that I have my first finger points towards the stations. We precisely know what they have done in the past and their actions to date have been pretty pathetic (discounting KRMA). We should be banging down their doors demanding to know when they plan to go back to JeffCo. JeffCo processes and decisions are irrelevant if they never see "plan B".

Least you gave me "maybe" on common sense :-)

Thanks Geof. Will read your reply.

-John

B) by rejecting every other proposal that has come up to date.

Actually, Jeffco approved the Ch 32 DTV antenna, the replacement of an FM antenna, the modification (twice) of Public Radio's antenna in addition to a few low-power changes on Lookout. (and I think they have approved/or soon will approve 2 more FM antenna changes)

To be sure, they have denied the majority of DTV applications, but all for non-compliance with the zoning resolution.

-Wabisabi

The point I am trying to make is that we really don't know how JeffCo will deal with a sound proposal that meets the intent of all their requirements. The first LCG proposal and the Eldorado proposal both had issues that JeffCo "could sink their teeth into". Perhaps they were a bit over zealous but in looking back it seems like both rejections were based on valid reasoning. I do agree that it seems like JeffCo was unreasonable with both the KCNC low power app and the KWGN app but I'd really like to hear their side of the story before drawing any conclusions. If we're the jury then we should not convict or acquit until we hear from both sides.

I do think the process takes way too long but I don't believe this is unique to the tower proposals. It takes time to get scheduled, gather all the relevant information, conduct open public meetings and solicit public input. The Planning and Zoning board officials are not elected officials and should not be granted absolute power to make decisions of this magnitude....the ultimate decision rests in the hands of elected County Commissioners. Because they are elected officials we can hold them accountable for their actions with our vote. It makes sense to me that they listen to all concerned/interested parties and weigh the "evidence" before making a final decision. It also makes sense to me that they give more weight to residents most likely to be affected by their decision. Thus far, the scales have been heavily weighted in favor of (S)CARE but they are organized and know how the process works. The other side of this is that up until recently the stations have pretty much gone it alone without soliciting any support that would help balance the scales in their favor. Let's just take a look at KWGN - they were telling forum members they'd be set to go by the deadline but wouldn't say much else. I called them and got very fuzzy answers to very specific questions - they weren't forthright at all. They did not solicit any help until it was clear they were going to lose. Now we're all supposed to jump on their bandwagon and rally behind them? Why? Because we want H/DTV so bad we can be treated like mushrooms and kept in the dark and then suddenly asked to defend/support their actions, when indeed we know not what they've done? Perhaps if they had held a meeting similar to the meetings KRMA and the LCG held and solicited support beforehand they would not be in the fix they are in now. Why the "secrecy"? Surely no one is going to sneak anything though JeffCo without (S)CARE finding out about it. The end result of this is that they stood alone without any public support while (S)CARE stood in opposition. Seems almost like a tailor made receipt for failure. Why should we now conclude that JeffCo was being unreasonable in all this? Because that is what KWGN tells us? Sorry, I'm not buying that (yet at least). Frankly I have little sympathy for the KWGN situation.

I've pretty much (over)stated "where is the LCG Plan B". Awhile back I was highly critical of having both the KRMA and LCG applications before JeffCo. Perhaps I need to learn to have patience because these two statements are at odds. To that end I am beginning to wonder if the LCG application is purposely being delayed until the outcome of the KRMA proposal is known (or until the process is further along). This may offer several advantages - 1) if the Morrison application is denied then that that pretty much eliminates all JeffCo locations except Lookout, and 2) If it is approved then the LCG can either find another TV station to band together with, or downsize, or go forth with the stated intention that they have excess capacity for another future tenant.

Now then, does anyone know when the KRMA/Morrison applcation goes before the County Commissioners?

Now then, does anyone know when the KRMA/Morrison applcation goes before the County Commissioners?

Jeffco will not schedule a time for the BCC until the application is finished with the Planning Commission. This is because there is a minimum time by law that must pass between the Planning Commission hearing and the BCC hearing. Originally, Jeffco thought the Morrison tower hearings would be finished in two or three hearings. So far there have been three, with at least one more needed.

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi


Originally, Jeffco thought the Morrison tower hearings would be finished in two or three hearings. So far there have been three, with at least one more needed.

-Wabisabi

Wabisabi:

Why is there another hearing? I thought they were done and we were just awaiting an answer from the planning commission, which for some reason was supposed to take another month.

Mark

Thanks Wabisabi.

Why is there another hearing? I thought they were done and we were just awaiting an answer from the planning commission, which for some reason was supposed to take another month.

All that they have finished with is public testimony. They still must listen to the response from the applicant, the response from staff, and ask questions of both the applicants and staff. After all that, they will make a decision.

Hopefully they can do all this in one hearing.

-Wabisabi

I am also curious about the status of the LCG proposal and why it is taking so much time. I would think after about 2+ years that they would have more than enough information to make their proposal as complete as possible and hopefully agreeable to meet the JeffCo requirements.

I can't say that I know the entire story of what they are trying to accomplish with the latest proposal, but it would be extremely nice if someone familiar with the LCG app could at least tell us the status..such as we are waiting on more information, etc...we expect it to be filed in the next month..two months, six months etc.

Right now, we are all just flaling around out here wondering when we are going to see something filed!

- Dustin

Hi folks, I was out of town on business part of last week and was ill over the weekend. I have read the weeks active postings and don't have much constructive to add. Here is what I do know.


Originally posted by smithdzd
I am also curious about the status of the LCG proposal and why it is taking so much time.
- Dustin

As for the LCG application, I spoke with Pete McNally last week and was told he is waiting on a couple of inputs and hoped to submit the application this week. All that being said, it is the same story I heard a month ago, so don't expect any sudden surprises. Even if the application is submitted, do NOT expect it to be put on the fast track. In fact, you can bet the hearings et. al. will be drug out as long as possible. It is in the best interest of ALL the parties involved except the general public, and obviously no one give a cr*p about the public here, there are too many self interests being satisfied.

Originally posted by smithdzd
I would think after about 2+ years that they would have more than enough information to make their proposal as complete as possible and hopefully agreeable to meet the JeffCo requirements.

- Dustin

Dustin
You make the incorrect assumption that the stations are anxious to get on the air in HD. They are not. That costs them money which they are NOT anxious to spend. They will be more than happy to drag this out as long as the FCC will allow them and Jeffco will facilitate it. Oh yes, Jeffco is in no hurry to approve anything either since it will obviously PO most of the people who vote for the commissioners. If they can stall longer they may get re-elected one more time. The stations put out efforts in varying degrees on the spectrum, from the obvious interest and effort by KRMA and nearly as strong KCNC, to the "Go suck an egg attitude at Denver's annointed leader", KUSA

You need to look at this from a different reference point of view. If you look at the situation in the light of the attitude that the stations are NOT anxious to get on the air any sooner than they are forced to by the FCC, it makes sense that they are in no hurry to submit another application. In this case time is not money, it is savings. In the meantime, maybe they can wait to see how the winds are going to blow on the KRMA application, who knows?

As for the AVS part in all this, we are beginning to look like the audience for the "Tonight Show". When the sign says "Applause" we are supposed to jump and applaud the LCG or KRMA, when the sign says "Testify", we are supposed to drop everything in our lives and run down to Jeffco and speak on their behalf, and when we ask a question like "When is the application to go in? or How does KRMA's second application fit in?" the sign says "Sit down and shut up". Right now the sign says "Sit down and shut up", so we had better just do what we are told. BTW, I am starting to understand why the Jeffco folks have gotten so frustrated with the stations over the years. When they need us we had better jump, but when they don't, we are left as Geof put it "in the dark like mushrooms".

The bottom line here folks is just the same as it has been for the last two years. I pursued the political involvement of several people in the state legistlature in the past few years, and the truth is, they and the Governor wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole unless it is to keep it out of their own back yard (i.e. the Boulder reps and Eldorado). Denver is "AT LEAST" two years away from any HD and likely it will be longer, and the stations like KUSA and KMGH are "on the record" as saying they are not going to do anything beyond what they have now. So if you can't get a signal from a station at this time, look for sources other that OTA. That is your only option for at least another couple years unless the FCC steps in. BTW, the odds of that, as the stations and Jeffco both know, are "slim" and "none". So come on folks "Sit down and shut up" and be good mushrooms.
:mad:

PS
Now you know why I haven't posted much lately, this is not a very constructive posting, just the truth of the situation. Sorry.

As for the AVS part in all this, we are beginning to look like the audience for the "Tonight Show". When the sign says "Applause" we are supposed to jump and applaud the LCG or KRMA, when the sign says "Testify", we are supposed to drop everything in our lives and run down to Jeffco and speak on their behalf, and when we ask a question like "When is the application to go in? or How does KRMA's second application fit in?" the sign says "Sit down and shut up". Right now the sign says "Sit down and shut up"...I love the analogy but obviously detest the reality of it. At any rate this is right on the mark with my way of thinking. I think your 2 year "warning" is right on as well although I can also see it being no sooner than '05....Excuse me while I don't hold my breath.

Dustin, you're right in that Colorado would like to be portrayed as "a leading technology state" but the truth is the "Cow Town" mentality will be around for years to come. Perhaps our stations should set up an exhibit at the National Western Stock show next year that chronicles their efforts to bring Colorado into the new millennium. They could place such an exhibit right next to the rest of the accumulated bullshit.

JMartinko and Geof-

Thanks for the comments. I have only been lurking around here for about a year and I know you guys have been involved from the beginning.

The situtation is very frustrating and with all of the time and energy members of this forum have expended in that time, there isn't a whole lot still being done. I think that some steps have been made, such as KCNC providing a low power solution and a clear dedication by members of that station to provide some kind of a solution to us (cheers to Dave Layne and members of his engineering staff).

I agree that most stations probably don't care much about HDTV. It costs more for them and there just isn't enough viewers yet to justify payback. The average american consumer just wants a TV that works. They think DVD is the best quality there is! Forums like this are places where we come together to try and enjoy the best quality audio and video possible, because we know better.

I think some of the legislation that the FCC is proposing will help this though. Getting everybody on the same page to work towards a common goal (broadcasters, consumer electronics, governments, and sat/cable co's) will also help.

I guess I should just be happy with PBS, CBS, HDNet, HBOHd, and ShoHD for the next couple of years...or at least look into ExpressVu for ABC and NBC!

- Dustin

Dustin
I don't think any of this would matter to me that much were it not for the fact that Denver is one of the Top 30 TV markets in the country. Obviously having among the top 30 markets in terms of numbers of viewers does not necessarily translate into the stations being in the top 30 in effort and quality. Just our tough luck I guess.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is still that we are no closer now to HDTV in Denver than we were two years ago. There is plenty of blame to go around, but the bottom line is still the same.

Originally posted by JMartinko

The bottom line, in my opinion, is still that we are no closer now to HDTV in Denver than we were two years ago. There is plenty of blame to go around, but the bottom line is still the same.

Well, we are a _little_ closer:

(1) KRMA has an application before the planning commission that has a real chance of being passed. That could get them on the air next year.

(2) KWGN might get something going yet this year. It's a bit of a surprise that "the WB" will have some HD.

(3) KDVR is at least passing through the "Fox Widescreen" (unless they are still having technical difficulties) And, they even have a digital translator running right here in Fort Collins.

(4) ElDorado has been officially rejected as an alternative site. I guess that's progress.

(5) Last, and least, LCG is at least doing something, and they seem to have a compelling argument for anyone concerned about RF and visual impact, and resolved all of the safety/setback issues that were supposedly the reasons for the previous rejection. Two years ago we were in court, and hoping for the FCC to act. Of course, that is where we may end up again.

Mark

jm,

The only item you mention that I would disagree with is the addition of KCNC and CBS programming to the Denver DTV landscape. That is a big difference from two years ago. Even though low power, a pretty wide group of viewers on this forum can access this signal locally.

We have heard from folks as far away as Longmont to the north and Geof in Roxborough to the south as being able to view. It is still not full power by any means as we all know, but a real difference from the dozen or so folks who could get 17 2 years ago.

Jeff

(4) ElDorado has been officially rejected as an alternative site.

I hate to disagree, but Eldorado has NOT been rejected as an alternative site any more than Lookout and Mount Morrison have been rejected as potential sites for DTV. All that was rejected was the zoning plan that Pinnacle towers proposed. If a zoning denial takes a site off of the list of potential DTV tower sites, then there is practically no site left. (two previous zoning denials on Morrison, and several on Lookout [with LCG being the most recent])

-Wabisabi

Originally posted by wabisabi


I hate to disagree, but Eldorado has NOT been rejected as an alternative site any more than Lookout and Mount Morrison have been rejected as potential sites for DTV. All that was rejected was the zoning plan that Pinnacle towers proposed. If a zoning denial takes a site off of the list of potential DTV tower sites, then there is practically no site left. (two previous zoning denials on Morrison, and several on Lookout [with LCG being the most recent])

-Wabisabi

Yes, I guess all of the sites have had proposals rejected. But the Pinnacle rejection at least did point out the drawbacks to that site to the planning commission/BCC. Now the CARE argument that Eldorado is a great alternative shouldn't have much impact. Since one of the reasons for the original LCG rejection was the lack of consideration of alternative sites, it seems that the Pinnacle rejection is a positive for the new proposal.

Mark

Originally posted by mbuchana


(3) KDVR is at least passing through the "Fox Widescreen" (unless they are still having technical difficulties) And, they even have a digital translator running right here in Fort Collins.
Mark

Mark,

Have you been able to pick up the digital translator out of Ft. Collins? I can pick up 31-1 just fine. I can pick up channel 22 (analog Ft. Collins Fox) but it is fuzzy. But I have not been able to get the 22-1 or 23-1 (where do they map it?)
:confused:

Mike

Originally posted by mbuchana


Well, we are a _little_ closer:

(1) KRMA has an application before the planning commission that has a real chance of being passed. That could get them on the air next year.
Mark

You are certainly entitled to an opinion, I am not as optimistic as you are. I do not see that application as having credibility alongside the LCG application unless both the LCG and KRMA announce their intentions if both applications are approved. Does KRMA intend to withdraw from the LCG application if theirs approved, and yet would it not be better from a visual standpoint if they were also on Lookout instead of building a new site on Morrison? No one seems to want to answer these questions for the public. One could certainly conclude that this is simply another case of the stations in the LCG jerking the public around like they have been accused of many times in the past. My opinion on these issues doesn't matter, but the LCG and KRMA owe the public an explanation and an answer. Why can't we get one? I guess as loyal mushrooms we are not entitled to know what they want to do.

Originally posted by mbuchana


Well, we are a _little_ closer:

(2) KWGN might get something going yet this year. It's a bit of a surprise that "the WB" will have some HD.


Mark

I am holding my breath (and turning blue). (S)CARE has obviously had the long term tactics of modifying zoning rules in Jeffco to make it difficult or impossible to replace even existing antennas (which I always have found intriguing in light of their complaints that the existing equipment is outdated and falling apart). I am not the least bit convinced that KWGN will be granted permission to begin transmitting digital, and I would also expect the (S)CARE folks to haul this one to court for a few years anyway.


Originally posted by mbuchana


Well, we are a _little_ closer:

(3) KDVR is at least passing through the "Fox Widescreen" (unless they are still having technical difficulties) And, they even have a digital translator running right here in Fort Collins.

Mark

What does FOX widescreen have to do with HDTV? I saw the Super Bowl. I am glad that KDVR passes it on, but it certainly is not worth the new DTV spectrum for that picture. I do understand that Rupport, not KDVR, is responsible for that fiasco, but they could do letterbox on an analog picture and get almost the same quality IMO.

Originally posted by mbuchana


Well, we are a _little_ closer:


(4) ElDorado has been officially rejected as an alternative site. I guess that's progress.

Mark

Frankly, I never felt that Eldorado was even feasible. Since NONE of the stations would contract with Pinnacle, it would have been a case of building an antenna and have no one using it. Progress?? Hardly. The fact that the Pinnacle application did not address these issues doesn't necessarily mean the site is eliminated for technical reasons, only that the owners application was not credible. The LCG application will still have to address the alternate site issue, and I don't think they can simply wait and argue that applications from other sites were rejected and therefore the sites are not acceptable. The rejected application does not mean the sites are unacceptable, the LCG must prove that on technical grounds in their as yet to be seen application. They obviously didn't do it the last time.

Originally posted by mbuchana


Well, we are a _little_ closer:

(5) Last, and least, LCG is at least doing something, and they seem to have a compelling argument for anyone concerned about RF and visual impact, and resolved all of the safety/setback issues that were supposedly the reasons for the previous rejection. Two years ago we were in court, and hoping for the FCC to act. Of course, that is where we may end up again.

Mark

What is the LCG doing? I have not seen an application submitted, so I could not comment on whether it is an improvement over the previous one. I would rate this situation as worse that before, not improved. At least then we had an application to discuss, even though it was in court. We have seen some nice presentations from the LCG, but whether the application adequately addresses all of the issues with regards to Jeffco zoning laws and (S)CARE criticism cannot be determined until an application is actually submitted. As for the odds of this application ending up in court, as long as the (S)CARE folks exist and are as well funded as they seem to be, I would bet on it. Again though, until and application is submitted for a review, I have no idea if their application will resemble anything we saw at the presentations.

Originally posted by jeffden
jm,

The only item you mention that I would disagree with is the addition of KCNC and CBS programming to the Denver DTV landscape. That is a big difference from two years ago. Even though low power, a pretty wide group of viewers on this forum can access this signal locally.

We have heard from folks as far away as Longmont to the north and Geof in Roxborough to the south as being able to view. It is still not full power by any means as we all know, but a real difference from the dozen or so folks who could get 17 2 years ago.

Jeff

Although I am certainly thankfull to KCNC for finally getting at least a low power transmitter on the air, the point of fact is that this has nothing to do with the full power transmission that was supposed to be on the air in this market over 2 years ago. Yes, a few of us here in the forum can get it by exchanging antenna pointing ideas, and buying huge UHF only arrays, and running cables without splitters to our gear, but this is hardly a solution available to the general public. Try putting one of those 8 foot antennas on the roof of an apartment, or try getting KCNC in Fort Collins or Greeley.

Please don't be shooting the messenger, but as I see it, in terms of the full power transmitters from the major networks that were supposed to be on the air two years ago, I still contend we are no further along (and until the LCG submits an application actually behind) where we were 2 years ago. As I contended in my previous post, if you want to watch HDTV from the major networks in Denver you had better start looking for another source than OTA for at least 2 or 3 years if not more. That did not matter much the last few years as only CBS did significant HD anyway, but as of this fall, most of CBS, ABC and a lot of NBC will be in HD on a weekly basis. I won't comment on FOX Widescreen quality, but there are shows on in their format. Even WB is going to be doing a few shows in HD this fall. Within a year or two, I would expect nearly all prime time shows to be in HD except on FOX. Most of the rest of the country will be watching it. Here in Denver the general public will not have that opportunity. That is the bottom line.

In looking at the big picture for Lookout, I don't see how the Planning board can weigh the needs of having free OTA for all the front range vs. attracting developers for a multitude of large developments in which each 75-foot parcel would be paying a high property tax for their high-value properties once the antennas are gone. Certainly this appears to have been the direction they have been headed for some time while waisting our time running in circles. The Gov. won't want to get involved for the same reasons the FCC won't get involved - it's a local zoning issue. The scenic views will be from Lookout to Denver, not the other way around. And the 'safety' of the homes from raging uncontained forest fires by some nut with a match will be satisfied by an occasional fire hydrant in the developments. Taking the current 'progress' into the future - Fox may be the only network OTA left, and the other stations will make a profit from fiber connections to cable/sat companies rather than spending on running/maintaining a tower. It's no wonder they aren't fighting this. Cable cos will be happy to pass the access cost onto consumers, rounded up a buck or two. There will be no competition from OTA or other cities, so why not? Sad that on Independence Day our freedoms along the front range to receive DTV via OTA has been so easily eroded by some Jeffco folks. The only positive direction towards receiving HDTV networks is via cable. I have been anti-cable for decades, but it appears that it would be able to provide HD content alot sooner than any decent tower in the DMA. Any thoughts on starting to petition them to get with the stations and provide HD through them?

Originally posted by mknoebel


Mark,

Have you been able to pick up the digital translator out of Ft. Collins? I can pick up 31-1 just fine. I can pick up channel 22 (analog Ft. Collins Fox) but it is fuzzy. But I have not been able to get the 22-1 or 23-1 (where do they map it?)
:confused:

Mike

Mike,

No, it is a sad illustration of our DTV woes that I, an "HDTV enthusiast," have not found a reason to get an OTA receiver yet.

And JM thinks I'm an optimist... :)

Mark

Somebody should really concentrate on the argument that radiation kills!

So all those lets say 1 mile from republic plaza are dead and dieing.

It's 1;100th the power of what will be on lookout? That dead zone?! I mean sleepless zone.

The wasteland that is Lookout Mountain. I think we should petitition the city counselors right now, to determine that Lookout mountain is a barren wasteland.

All homes are condemed. For the good of the people and the birds, and the foxes.

-John

Actually, the 'radiation' bit really helped (S)CARE to play into the Jeffco planning commission's hands. The Jeffco local gov. are the only ones truly in control of the land use. I strongly suspect that if the towers are keeping them awake, wait until they hear the early morning sounds of chain saws, bulldozers, earth movers, and convoys of dump trucks. Funny how people move to an area to escape the environment that they came from, then quickly convert their new environment back to the one they sought to escape. Perhaps they desire the closeness of large King Soupers, Safeways, and Albertsons, followed by large shopping centers. Perhaps their streets are too quiet and they feel the need to make them into large thoroughfares complete with traffic noise, traffic lights, and sirens all hours of the night. Someday, they will look back to the quietness of the towers, but once gone, they will be gone forever. The only hope that they have to preserve the environment that has existed there since they moved there is to have the control of the land taken away from the Jeffco gov. That would mean to have it declared a historic district, and taken over by the fed. gov. But not only would the towers stay (because they are historically a part of Lookout), the antennas could be upgraded in accordance with the FCC mandate, just like everywhere else.

Sound continues to much better on KCNC-DT. I watched a bit last Sat and last Thur and did not encounter any problems other than an apparent switching transient every now and then.

Does anyone get Showtime HD on the DirecTv 110 Sat? This used to work fine for me but for the past 1-2 weeks it's been pretty much unwatchable. I've noticed the signal level on the SHOHD transponder is in the low 30's. I get much higher signal levels on the two other transponders (as well as 101 and 119), which indicates my antenna is aligned fine. I haven't found any threads discussing this so I am assuming something in my setup is hosed. It would be helpful if someone would post the signal levels on each of the 3 transponders for the 110 sat....

Geof - I finally got my Sat C kit last week so activated Showtime for a few days to check it out. PQ was very decent.

I'm at work now, so I can't get my exact readings, but IIRC:

101: 80s
110: 60s - 70s
119: 40s - 60s

All extremely watchable.

Teetering on the edge of an alternate network HD satellite solution,

-David

Thanks David. Please post the signal levels on the 3 110 transponders when you get a chance. I suspect I'll need a new part to fix the low signal level on 110 but that probably means buying another Sat C kit....damn....

If you've got the room for a Big Ugly Dish you'll be able to get around the Denver HDTV problems...

Transponder 8 (Showtime HD): 80

Transponder 10: 78

Transponder 12: 84

Thats not with an elliptical though, it's just with a Dish500 where I removed he Dish 110 lnb and strapped the Sat C lnb to the 119 lnb instead.

The dish is at ground level and there might even be foliage somewhat in the way (nor did I ever bother to truly tweak anything to begin with) but those are my readings this morning.

Thanks Dan. My reading is very close to yours for transponder 12, a bit lower on 10 and in the low 30's for 8. I figured it had to be my setup or there'd be lots of moaning. I will order another Sat C kit and see if that fixes things....

I had my SAT C kit installed about a month ago and initially had problems due to a bent copper conductor in the coax. This was repaired and SHO HD has come in very clean ever since. I believe I am getting that sat in the 70 range.

Now, if DTV could just put us some more stations on SAT C, like Discovery HD, it would be very nice! Dream on, huh?

- Dustin

Originally posted by Geof

If you've got the room for a Big Ugly Dish you'll be able to get around the Denver HDTV problems...

Those of us using the BUD's prefer you would refer to them as a "Big Useful Dish"! It is far more descriptive. They will solve most of your OTA network problems. Besides, what's so ugly about a 12 foot movable dish in your back yard? It's easier to look at than two 20 year old rusted out cars up on blocks next to an old box bed springs.:D

Who was it that said, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"?

Well I agree about not wanting to look at 20 year old rusted cars but then again I don't want to look at the big dish, ugly or not, next door either. But hey, I'll give you the fact that they are "useful"...you get so damn many channels I don't know how you figure out what to watch...;)

Originally posted by Geof
....But hey, I'll give you the fact that they are "useful"...you get so damn many channels I don't know how you figure out what to watch...;)

Watch? Aw come on, Geof, your a EE, you know the thrill is in the chase. Once you get a channel there is no need to turn it on again (unless they are doing the Super Bowl or some event in HD).


:mad:
Not to beat a dead horse again, but this dead horse is REALLY starting to stink! Another week has gone by without an LCG application submitted to Jeffco. It's almost as if KUSA the 'network leader in Denver' is now leading the charge for HD in Denver. Of course as we all know with KUSA, that means we are now officially in the stall mode with no plan in sight. Unless there is something going on behind the scenes (which I highly doubt), the Denver viewing public is being hoodwinked into thinking the stations are actually working this problem! I don't want to sound too cynical here, but I think we have been used again. The AVS members helped create the 'illusion' of progress for the stations to get them off the hook again. Those of us who predicted they might be on the air by 2004 were obviously optimists. We all know even if a plan is submitted, it will not be pushed with any great effort. Anyone seen any DTV PSA's lately? Anyone seen any mention of the application in the news or in 'station editorials'?

I now declare it "OFFICIAL", none of the major networks in the Denver market wants to be broadcasting full power HDTV, now or in the future. If that is not true, I defy them to prove me wrong by making more than a token effort to get on the air! If they want our support in the future I suggest they make a serious effort to show us why we should 'care'! Lip service doesn't cut it for me any more. PROVE ME WRONG!

I mostly agree with you John - 'tis a sad situation and the FCC apparently doesn't care. I hope the slackers (KUSA, etc) get caught with their pants down at some point and pay a high price for this BS.

We've heard that Jeffco was only doing its job in keeping the stations from upgrading, let alone to approve a super tower. Now these same people doing their job will somehow approve of what they already recently disallowed? I'm not sure I follow that line of thought. Let's say Colorado wanted to punish DUI offenders - would they prohibit the building and maintenance of highways forever? That would only happen if they wanted to reclaim the land under the highways for more profitable use, and perhaps say that MADD made them do it. I don't believe that Jeffco is out to 'punish' us innocent citizens - er, viewers for the wrongs of the stations. I wouldn't want to put them into the same camps as others in the middle east. Forcing the stations NOT to spend money that they don't want to spend is not punishment for them in my book. The responsible action for addressing ERP excesses would be to insist on constant monitoring of RF power emissions and automatic limiters on all new equipment if they were concerned about 'radiation'. Even a report/response procedure that would alert the FCC if the stations failed to respond accordingly. If they wanted to act in good faith, the Jeffco planners would work with the stations to relocate the towers to another location and assure that the new location was workable as a permanent location and set up a schedule. But, instead, they are just ripping the land out from under the towers through attrition. Jeffco has refused to participate to the best of my knowledge in any alternate solution, and no plan, now or in the future, will ever be absolutely perfect and to everyone's liking, so always can be and therefore will be rejected. I don't see anything the stations can do. The error was made years ago when the land under the towers was not owned by the state. Denver is Digitally Dead, for all intents and purposes. They will just ride out the analog signal as long as they can. I doubt that they have a clue as to what will happen then.

Don, will you let us know about any JeffCo decision on KWGN's antenna replacement appeal?

Not sure I follow you Mark but it sounds like we disagree on JeffCo (my JeffCo thoughts should be somewhere in the last couple of pages in this thread). I do not see how JeffCo can be blamed for an application that has yet to be submitted (even though we've been hearing "next week" since last year). I am fairly confident that appropriate folks are trying to make sure every angle is covered with their next LCG submission but I sure wish they'd be forthright, honest, and open about the whole thing. Regardless, from what I have been able to ascertain JeffCo had due cause to deny the first LCG app and the Eldorado app. There were flaws with those apps that probably shouldn't have been overlooked by JeffCo....I will be very interested to see how the KRMA app fairs as I believe that was the first application submitted to JeffCo where everyone did their homework. If it is denied then we may be in for a really really long wait on anything....

Good question Ernie - what has happened with the KWGN appeal (or when will a decision be forthcoming)??

Didn't Pete (?), the guy from LCG, hand out his business cards to a bunch of us when we were at KCNC? Has anyone e-mailed him directly to see if he'll reply publically to a question about the status of the LCG app?

It's obvious we're not getting information "push"ed to us, maybe we should try "pull"ing?

Originally posted by Mgibsoj
We've heard that Jeffco was only doing its job in keeping the stations from upgrading, let alone to approve a super tower. Now these same people doing their job will somehow approve of what they already recently disallowed? I'm not sure I follow that line of thought. ... <clip> ... and no plan, now or in the future, will ever be absolutely perfect and to everyone's liking, so always can be and therefore will be rejected. I don't see anything the stations can do.

I am not sure I agree with your line of thinking. If you remember the specifics of the last LCG proposal, you would probably recognize the vast improvement in LCG2. The original rezoning application had several issues that each one by itself could have led to a denial (tower setbacks, RF levels, the design and scale of the support building, the size and location of the "ice bridge", no FM stations signed on, the new tower's guy lines being intertwined with the existing tower's guy wires...). It appears that most, if not all of these issues have been taken care of this time around. This is exactly what the stations have to do to get zoning approved. The first LCG plan was a "take it or leave it" approach that Jeffco left. The delay since that denial, and the denial itself were not the "fault" of Jefferson County.

Take for instance the Eldorado Mtn denial. Even though we want HDTV, there was little support even amongst ourselves for this site. Jeffco did the right thing in turning down the rezoning. This does not mean Jeffco is against DTV. Jeffco is against half-baked plans being submitted as zoning applications. When a good plan is submitted, and the benefits clearly outweigh the costs, then Jeffco will approve a plan. (I hope)

-Wabisabi

My prior post was primarily about Jeffco's new zoning restriction that categorically denies all transitions to digital transmission (claimed by them not to be a same service) as Ernie picked up on. This to me represents the largest setback in the Denver DTV transition to date. There were no conditions attached such as RF levels, just flat refusal. This is what I claim to be irresponsible and uncooperative government. However, to address the LCG1 - setback violations are a reason for a variance to be applied for - not a flat-out rejection. On the guy wire issue - which guy wires were thought not to be capable of supporting the towers? Were they touching or just sharing the same airspace, and wasn't the existing tower to be removed anyway as part of the tower consolidation plan? As to the buildings on the land - I've seen what overcrowded schools are using for classrooms - not exactly the Taj M. either. Those are issues for which have been addressed throughout the country where other towers exist (and have been inspected and insured). The plans may have not been perfect, but they don't appear to be as horrific as made to sound. All I'm stating is that both sides of the table need to be cooperative and working in earnest for a solution to exist. If Jeffco flat-out turns its back on transition to DTV as they have now written in their zoning rules - the acceptance of DTV doesn't stand much of a chance in Denver. The Ch. 2 approval will give us alot of valuable insight as to the current mood.

My prior post was primarily about Jeffco's new zoning restriction that categorically denies all transitions to digital transmission (claimed by them not to be a same service) as Ernie picked up on.

This is not a new zoning restriction. This has been on the books since 1993. Further, it does not prohibit properly zoned towers from converting to digital. It only precludes the legal non-conforming towers from switching. (legal non-conforming towers are those that existed before zoning was adopted in 1955, and have not had their zoning changed to allow towers.) So, whether or not we agree with their zoning resolution, (or their interpretations of it) they have not changed it with regard to towers for 9 years.

-Wabisabi

My prior post was primarily about Jeffco's new zoning restriction that categorically denies all transitions to digital transmission (claimed by them not to be a same service)To my knowledge this is not a new restriction but is something proposed by (S)CARE. Whether or not JeffCo interprets "same service" as (S)CARE proposes is something that I do not think we yet know as certainty. Any such interpretation would (I suspect) be grounds for a legal battle.The plans may have not been perfect, but they don't appear to be as horrific as made to sound. Just to play devils advocate for a moment - why should JeffCo accept less than perfect plans that did not meet all of their zoning and Telecommunications Land Use Plan requirements? If you or I go to our county and present flawed plans to build a house should we then expect the county to work with us to make it right? Is that not the job of the presenter and not the reviewer? JeffCo gave their reasons for rejecting the proposal, "all" the LCG had to do is incorporate those comments into a revised proposal and resubmit. Well we're still waiting on that two+ years later.All I'm stating is that both sides of the table need to be cooperative and working in earnest for a solution to exist.Yes, that is true, but the LCG group chooses to be secretive so we do not know if this is happening - or if they or JeffCo are being uncooperative....

Guys, the bad boys in all of this is the stations...blame THEM...

Originally posted by dr_mal
Didn't Pete (?), the guy from LCG, hand out his business cards to a bunch of us when we were at KCNC? Has anyone e-mailed him directly to see if he'll reply publicly to a question about the status of the LCG app?

It's obvious we're not getting information "push"ed to us, maybe we should try "pull"ing?

I have been in pretty steady contact with Pete since May, but have nothing newsworthy to report except that, like in April, they are "almost there". I will obviously post here if I get news that something has changed. My recent information from several sources is still that the submittal is imminent (much as it has been for some time). Hence my recent pessimism.

As much as I hate to admit it, I have the feeling lately that the eventual resolution on this is going to be that the stations will end up turning off the analog signals at some point and converting the transmissions to DTV at that time, perhaps even on the existing towers. I am sure that (S)CARE would fight that, but I would think the FCC would likely be willing to support the LCG in that event. Regardless of what regulations (S)CARE tries to pass in Jeffco regarding this being a different transmission I think the FCC could over-rule on that one and have it stand up in court pretty easily.

As much as I hate to admit it, I have the feeling lately that the eventual resolution on this is going to be that the stations will end up turning off the analog signals at some point and converting the transmissions to DTV at that time, perhaps even on the existing towers.A distinct possibility in my mind.
I do think the stations need to promote that idea and flat out state that is their final fall back position. On the other hand (S)CARE needs to be careful what they wish for. If they're ultimately successful in blocking the KRMA app and the next LCG app (whenever that might happen) then Lookout will remain status-quo for quite a long time. I don't know about the more radical (S)CARE folks who seem to have a take no prisoner mentality but I don't think keeping Lookout as status-quo for the foreseeable future is in the best interests of most of the less radical Lookout and Genesee area residents - not when there are better alternatives (such as the next LCG plan assuming it ever gets submitted).

Originally posted by wabisabi


Jeffco is against half-baked plans being submitted as zoning applications. When a good plan is submitted, and the benefits clearly outweigh the costs, then Jeffco will approve a plan. (I hope)



Wow, it's about as simple as that huh? Well 2 things come to mind then. For one, it's a good thing Jeffco cares for the sake of the stations because otherwise those guys that dont even want to be on the air would be already had the original plan been rubber stamped. And for another, it's also good to know that CARE is a total nonfactor then if all it comes down to is a good plan being submitted. Kind of shocking that it would seem then that they're wasting all their time, energy and money for nothing.

As far as the stations being "secretive", I doubt whether it makes any real difference at all. As if laying out their plans to 50 or 100 guys with fancy tv's matters. Yes, I realize on one hand they asked for some help but that doesnt mean they should lay out the meat and potatoes does it? Or does it because people might need to let them know their plan sucks again before they even submit it.

They're probably keeping this whole thing low key in the general publics eye for good reason. I'd have to say that based on the degree of caring (read lack thereof) about DTV by people across the nation as a whole, theres a good chance that if they did bring it to the forefront on air and otherwise that it would backfire and you'd end up with CARE x 1000 because of all the people in this particular community that would suddenly agree that "Hey, yeah, it would be a good idea to get any and all of those unsightly towers off all our pretty mountains. Everybody simply gets their tv from cable anyway dont they?? Whats CARES address so I can send em a check?"

Originally posted by Geof

Guys, the bad boys in all of this is the stations...blame THEM...

Sorry to disagree...
The "Blame game" is not a very productive nor positive approach. I personally don't want to go there. I just look at the situation and state my observations with respect to my experiences. However, I also agree with the likelyhood that DTV will only happen when analog dies away - but mostly because there won't be any analog TVs left on the clearance shelves.

Originally posted by Mgibsoj


Sorry to disagree...
The "Blame game" is not a very productive nor positive approach.If you have a positive productive approach to resolving this (other than a misunderstanding about "Jeffco's new zoning restriction") please enlighten me...I am certainly not infallable nor am I always right. That said, I stand by my comments that the reason we do not have H/DTV in Denver is primarily due to the stations themselves...

Originally posted by Geof
[BI stand by my comments that the reason we do not have H/DTV in Denver is primarily due to the stations themselves... [/B]

Well, CARE would agree--the stations can just move to Squaw. They would probably already be on the air, since the zoning is already in place. Of course, you might not actually be able to get the signal, a minor detail...

Although the stations are far from blameless in their slow approach, I do think it has been extraordinarily difficult for LCG to put together a proposal they think has a good chance of getting approval. The evidence is that JeffCo will examine every detail, and the stations previously perceived arrogant behavior (and lawsuits) have hurt them with the county.

Now it appears that LCG has really gone to great lengths to address the earlier reasons for rejection. There are even enforcement methods spelled out, so the county doesn't even need to "trust" the stations. Based on earlier comments by Commissioner Sheehan, it is really hard to see how they could reject this one.

Now, if they will just get it submitted...

LCG will want our support, at appropriate times, even if we are just a few folks with fancy TVs. CARE is small number-wise also, they are just loud. The new proposal, properly presented, should do a lot to reduce CARE's claims to noise without substance. I think in general the stations do want to remain low key on the whole process--they don't want a big public battle with a homeowners' group.

Mark

I do think it has been extraordinarily difficult for LCG to put together a proposal they think has a good chance of getting approval. The evidence is that JeffCo will examine every detail, and the stations previously perceived arrogant behavior (and lawsuits) have hurt them with the county. I'm not involved in zoning issues on a daily basis but is it not the function of the review board to insure all provisions of their zoning laws and other county rules and regulations are met and satisfied? Yes, I agree that is has been "extraordinarily difficult for LCG to put together a proposal they think has a good chance of getting approval" but then again that is their job - no one else (and certainly not JeffCo) should be responsible for insuring their proposal meets JeffCo requirements. That they did not do so the first time around may have been a miscalculation on their part about what was involved. Or perhaps it was sheer ignorance of the process. Or perhaps (S)CARE turned up the heat and made sure their County Commissioners represented their interests. Likely all of this happened to some extent but again, no one else should be responsible for the LCG plans other than the LCG. That said, I find it highly suspicious that they have taken over 2+ years to resubmit a second plan. Why so long?

I am becoming more and more resolved in my thinking that JeffCo is not the primary culprit in this delay. I cannot ascertain if they coulda/shoulda/woulda been more or less cooperative with the LCG because I don't know how cooperative they've been to date (nor do any of us other than maybe Wabisabi). Maybe they haven't and if that's the case then they should take some heat. But once again, the LCG is responsible for their plans, not JeffCo. Their rules are there in writing for all to read.

As to cooperating with the stations, yes, they may want our help. Then again maybe not. KWGN certainly didn't until they were in deep do-do. KRMA seems to want our help but they have almost gone out of their way to piss off people. Go back and read several of the comments from folks who were lined up to testify before the 14 day sign fiasco. I think you'll find they were not even notified the hearings were canceled. I was called two days beforehand to ask if I would testify and jm was called the night before the day of the hearing. Is this considerate? Should we just accept this lack of common courtesy? So far it's been more or less a one way street - me, me, me, me, you - question? Go sit down and shut up.... Hey if "you" (this is a generic U) wanna be used be my guest, or if you feel like your help is for the greater good, be my guest. In the meantime, I am insulted and yes, a bit pissed off by their actions. Sorry, don't expect much help from me from this point forward....

I might buy into Jeffco not having (or perhaps not wanting to take) any responsibility under certain circumstances but this isnt one of them. We're not talking about building something new, huge, out of the blue and for nothing more than someones hairbrained scheme for profit. Amusement Park, Condo's, Office buildings, etc. But instead I keep hearing how DTV is the future and for the good for all of the people along the front range for years to come..... it's federally mandated and it's simply trying to be done on the site where tv has always originated from, and so on.

Again, it's not that much different in my mind, except on a far larger scale, than when I went to Jeffco looking for a building permit for a remodel of an existing home and they looked over my plans. Certainly parts of the existing 25 year old structure wouldnt meet todays codes and thats one thing but when it came to the addition you can be sure it was going to have to meet them. Kinda sounds like they could have simply thrown the blueprints back in my face and said nice try chump..maybe next time. Or they could have done, and in fact did, note the corrections on the blueprints that had to be made so as to allow my project to be in compliance with thier rules. Had they not done that I probably still to this day couldnt have got all the i's dotted and the t's crossed yet.

But apparently there is a difference afterall, and I wonder what it is?

But apparently there is a difference afterall, and I wonder what it is?You weren't trying to get rezoned. Try going back to the county and see how easy it would be for you to open up a business, like an all night dance club, on your property.Or they could have done, and in fact did, note the corrections on the blueprints that had to be made so as to allow my project to be in compliance with thier rules. Had they not done that I probably still to this day couldnt have got all the i's dotted and the t's crossed yet.Does anyone know for sure if this was or was not done with the first rejection? I mean after all JeffCo did give reasons for denying the application...

I should have also added though that I wouldnt have waited 2 years to try again had they in fact told me no dice the first time around even without elaboration. ;)

And as far as the rezoning issue then, so be it. Again to me that should play a role in some of the examples I listed above. But to a simple minded fella like me that sounds in this case like nothing more than semantics when the area currently has towers for television and will/would continue to be used for television. Hardly sounds like a massive change in usage as a practical matter.. a far cry from turning a residential home into a strip joint. Just imagine if they were wanting to take the towers from some home they might have had on a "hill" in Bennett for the last 40 years and deciding that putting them up on Lookout Mtn would be a great idea all of a sudden. You think *this* is a hassle? But ehh, what do I know (obviously).

But to a simple minded fella like me that sounds in this case like nothing more than semantics when the area currently has towers for television and will/would continue to be used for television.Well with that I agree (well not the simple minded part). However, I guess we can blame the JeffCo folks from 50 years ago for that problem since it was zoned residential after the towers were up and running. Since the property is zoned residential (or something like residential) building a TV tower (keep in mind the LCG wants to put their new tower on a currently empty lot) is certainly not residential usage and that means it needs to be rezoned, which is a far more lengthy and complex process than getting a building permit. It's the same process you'd have to go thru if you wanted to tear down your home and put in a business and oh, BTW, the neighbors get a very large say during that process....

I hear ya Geof. Ya know, it's the funniest thing. In any other thread where having facts is necessary to engage in a meaningful discussion (as opposed to the "CSI looks awesome!" threads) I'll never even post if I dont understand the facts. Yet in this thread once a month or so I have to chirp in even though I'm as clueless as a person can be about all the particulars. I wonder why that is other than probably because the truth is I dont really want to know all the facts because then I'd get even madder about the whole thing. This way, I can try and make light of it instead which allows me to laugh about it instead of cry over it I suppose.

You'd think after reading all of the posts in this thread as time has gone on that I would actually have a good understanding of just about every facet. I guess it goes to show that reading and comprehending can sometimes be 2 entirely different things if you allow them to be. ;)

Originally posted by Geof
Does anyone know for sure if this was or was not done with the first rejection? I mean after all JeffCo did give reasons for denying the application...

If the process was working the way it should, I would think that once things had been approved by the planning commission there would be a good chance of approval at the commissioner level. But the first application certainly didn't work that way.

Geof, you have some excellent points in your post a few back. There is no excuse for the stations not treating you with courtesy if they want your help.

I will excuse them for not making a big splash with the public on this issue, since that might not be the best strategy. But they need to keep those who are willing to support them informed and involved. With things like the James Morgese DTV e-mail list, that ought to be easy.

Mark

Originally posted by mbuchana


If the process was working the way it should, I would think that once things had been approved by the planning commission there would be a good chance of approval at the commissioner level. But the first application certainly didn't work that way.

Geof, you have some excellent points in your post a few back. There is no excuse for the stations not treating you with courtesy if they want your help.

I will excuse them for not making a big splash with the public on this issue, since that might not be the best strategy. But they need to keep those who are willing to support them informed and involved. With things like the James Morgese DTV e-mail list, that ought to be easy.

Mark I hear ya on the planning commission approval yet the Commissioner rejection. I do find that somewhat curious although I do believe it's an ongoing process. New facts (or (S)CARE nits) may have come to light after the planning commission phase. In that particular case I have heard from several sources that the application was constantly being revised. Some of that is probably understandable because as the JeffCo folks find problems the LCG tried to correct those problems. The problem with "fixing" things like that on the fly so to speak is that it leaves open the opportunity to fix the issue but introduce a new issue in the process....I think the best approach is to make sure most, preferably all, the issues are worked before the application is submitted. We know this has happened to some extent with 2nd app and the preapplication hearings that the LCG conducted earlier this year. I suppose that happened during the first application but I am unsure of what transpired before the first app was submitted. So, I guess I do think the LCG is working with JeffCo, and to some extent with (S)CARE and other interested parties prior to submitting their second app. From what we've been able to see it looks like the process is working but how effective that will be to the outcome we'll have to wait and see.

I think one of the problems trying to understand this whole issue is the lack of information. We keep asking and digging and what little info we've gotten has been from the station side of things. Of course they are going to present their side of the issues but we've heard little from JeffCo so we are not privy to the other half of the story. I know you and I both had conversations and/or email exchanges with Commissioner Sheehan over a year ago trying to understand the rejection of the first app and we got a fairly good taste of the other side. In fact the reasons Commissioner Sheehan gave us made sense even though we didn't like the outcome. I think it's easy to conclude that JeffCo isn't cooperating because we hear nothing from them but I don't think that would be a necessarily valid conclusion. There is so much to this that we just do not know and will never know but that doesn't make the JeffCo folks guilty of not cooperating. In fact as I have stated it seems as if JeffCo was justified in rejecting the first LCG app and the Eldorado app. Hopefully the current LCG folks are learning from the past and trying their best to submit a solid application. At least I hope that is the reason for the delay and that it's just not sitting on the shelf.

I know jm and I were both "put off" by the short notice. And I agree with you that I don't care if they make a big public splash, but I don't like being put in a position to support any effort without knowing what has transpired. I am not saying I want to be privy to every little detail but I would like to be kept informed so I don't go walking into a buzz saw (in other words I'd like to know just what it is that I am supporting).

Hey Dan, doesn't CSI look awesome ;)

Thanks wabisabi and Geof for the clarification of the timing of the zoning restriction and the non-conforming tower deal - I knew the latest restrictions happened more than a couple of years ago, but couldn't be anywhere near as old as the towers since it specifically mentioned digital television. I still call a 9 year old addition to a 50 year old house the 'new' addition. But, through my error in use of a relative term, I learned more. I am missing knowing the original rationale for declaring the towers that existed in '55 as suitable for zoning as residential (squatters living there? higher taxes? 'towers' taken to mean 'high-rise apartments'?). Not that it matters now anyway. And sorry Geof that I don't have any additional positive suggestions, but thanks for asking. So, here's hoping that things will progress as expected.

Mark,
I am not sure why the properties were zoned residential but there were some residences on Lookout at the time. I think the area was plated in the 20's (sometime way back when) with the original intention of it being a residential area. Several towers (not sure how many) were built before zoning came along. When the area was zoned it was zoned as residential and the towers were identified as "legal, non-conforming" (in essence they were grandfathered in at this point).

I hate to interrupt this eloquent and informed debate about the Lookout tower issue, but there were some sound issues on KCNC last night during CSI and The Agency. CSI started with some crackling noises and there were times when the sound was distorted -- not the tinny sound as was previously heard before they installed their new equipment. It appeared they might have been aware of the problems because the sound issues would usually be fixed after a while during the two hours. Hope they are getting close to a final fix. I will email David Layne as I usually do.

I was curious if any of you who are very close to the Lookout issue have ever met one on one in person with appropriate station management (LCG?) or Jeffco people to see what they might say outside of formal meetings with many parties in attendance. In my case, if KUSA would just join the other networks with a temporary transmitter downtown, I would be happy. ( I do get 17!)

Just talked to Pete McNally and the LCG application is being filed this morning with the Jefferson County Commissioner this morning. Pete says the highlights of the application should be posted on the web site today. That site is at

http://www.lakecedargroup.com


As I told Pete, at least now we all have something to shoot at. He said that it is basically the same as the information we had previously seen. The stations are also currently discussing the option of allowing the land on the existing sites (after the towers are taken down) to be donated to open space if the proper arrangements can be made.

As an aside to all of this, I have also heard that Channel 9 is "considering" moving the radar off of it Lookout site if they can find a suitable site on the front range. The radar does NOT require line of site for its use.

Finally, MOVEMENT!
We are now at the point we were about 5 years ago with the first application submission. I guess that's progress, since all sides should be smarter now.

Woo Hoo! That's good news!

I know some of us aren't really happy with the stations 'Application Games' but, i think it would really help for us to go (and Speak) at the upcoming JeffCo commissioners hearings. If you think it was bad at the last Taj hearings, (S)Care's been practicing, and it's gonna get U-G-L-Y!

We should come up with some straticially placed people, with thought-out speeches to both support our side and rebute theirs.

Dennis, speaking for some of us in the hills, Boulder, Ft. Collins etc., Low-power is not accepable for us.

I forgot to mention in my previous post, but Pete expects hearings in Sept. or Oct. More information on that will follow when it is available.

This is great to hear. I heard from Dave Layne this morning that the app was being filed. At least we are seeing some forward motion now. I hope that this proposal will meet the requirements and hopefully silence the crying of (S)CARE. I mean, lets face it there is no better site than Lookout which is why it was chosen 50 years ago. Towers are going to have to go there no matter what..

- Dustin

Anybody see the special in the paper this morning?
A huge story on Denver TV and not one mention of HDTV at all... Nice!

Originally posted by santellavision
Anybody see the special in the paper this morning?
A huge story on Denver TV and not one mention of HDTV at all... Nice!

I read the story and found it odd that there was no mention of digital TV. Denver was late in getting B&W TV and is now late in getting digital TV.

Originally posted by santellavision
Anybody see the special in the paper this morning?
A huge story on Denver TV and not one mention of HDTV at all... Nice!

Yup, I saw that section and I KNEW that there had to be something about HD in there. I even scanned through it a second time thinking I just missed it the first time.

Good job, Rocky. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by santellavision
Don, will you let us know about any JeffCo decision on KWGN's antenna replacement appeal?

The JeffCo Board of Adjustment will deliver their decision on KWGN's appeal of the permit denial on Wed. July 24th at 9am. We are hopeful, but not overly optimistic, that we we hear what we want.

In the meantime, we have had some favorable discussions with the County for a 1/2 power (450kW) solution from our site.

Don

jm,
Thanks for the news. As Sherlock Holmes would say, the game is afoot.

Keeping my fingers crossed for KWGN....Thanks for the update Don. Please let us know how it turns out.

As an aside, I got my SHOHD problem fixed. It turned it to be as I expected - the Sat B/Sat C combiner was hosed.

Originally posted by Geof
jm,
Thanks for the news. As Sherlock Holmes would say, the game is afoot.



As more and more stations around the country come on the air, I note from glancing at other threads that issues in most major cities tend to be with the last few independent stations finally making it on the air. Here in Denver, we are supposed to get excited because our major network affiliates have 'finally' submitted a plan to the zoning board. What's wrong with THIS picture?

The article in Saturday's "Rocky" pointed out, Denver was about 5 years behind in getting television on the air. Funny, I didn't even know the (S)CARE group was already organized back in the 50's! :) Maybe the stations were just laying the ground work for their general method of not being prepared for technology. I guess if nothing else we can congratulate the Denver area for its technical consistency, it seems we will be at least 5 years behind the rest of the country in getting HDTV as well. Some things never change in a 'cow town', do they? (I have special permission to call it that only due to the fact I am a Colorado native!)

Geof, I am not sure what Sherlock would say about this situation, but I am guessing he wouldn't have touched this case with a 10 foot pole. Even his observational powers would have been useless to solve this disgrace.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT


The JeffCo Board of Adjustment will deliver their decision on KWGN's appeal of the permit denial on Wed. July 24th at 9am. We are hopeful, but not overly optimistic, that we we hear what we want.

In the meantime, we have had some favorable discussions with the County for a 1/2 power (450kW) solution from our site.

Don

Thanks for the update, Don! Why would the county let you broadcast at half power but not a full power? You'd still have to make the tower modifications, and wasn't that what was denied in your application?

If you were able to get on the air at 450kW, what a slap in the face to the "big" stations that would be! Go KWGN!

LAKECEDARGROUP WEB PAGE

Are they supposed to update their web page? It's all the same info. from before.

Is anyone going to the Mt. Morrison Hearing on Wednesday?

Looks like LCG's web site has been updated...

-Wabisabi

Which part of the website was updated? It looks pretty much the same to me.

Which part of the website was updated? It looks pretty much the same to me.

They now have their proposed written restrictions up. The menu on the left now has a "what is proposed" section that will get you to them.

This is the language that will be evaluated by Jeffco. It doesn't matter what has been said up to this point, the meat of the zoning is in the written restrictions.

-Wabisabi

Tonight the Jeffco planning commission will hear the rebuttal from the applicant, and ask questions of the applicant and staff. I don't think there will be any public testimony. It will be interesting to hear the planning commission's questions and PIC's answers to them, I think. Later in the hearing, staff will be presenting proposed housekeeping changes to the zoning resolution.

It should be an interesting evening. (or not)

-Wabisabi

They now have their proposed written restrictions up.Yes, I found that interesting reading. There were one or two items that I think (S)CARE will take issue with but it's otherwise pretty much as they described.

Wabisabi, please post the results/impressions of the KRMA hearing tonight...

Mt Morrison applicants got a chance to rebut public testimony. In a nutshell, it reminded me of the opening statements in the movie "My Cousin Vinny", where he basically says [edited version] "everything the other guy said is wrong" [/edited version]

What was most interesting to me was testimony from James Montgese who said that CH6 would sign a lease for the short tower (almost committing to move there) if the application was approved. No-one asked him if this case was approved if he would withdraw from the LCG case.

The issue of noise from the generators seemed very important to the planning commission. They even hinted in a not-so-subtle way that the applicant had better address this issue. I was amazed that the applicant did not instantly say they would agree to residential noise levels (55dba) instead of industrial standards (80dba). I guess they did not get the commissioner's point.

Anyway, the case was continued again until Sept 25th (afternoon) to hear staff comments, and questions from the planning commission.

Afterwords, I talked with the secretary of the planning commission, and she said the next open night hearing is in November. So, I guess there is no chance to hear LCG before then.

-Wabisabi

P.S. There was no opposition to the proposed changes to the zoning resolution regarding telecommunications. Both broadcasters and citizens spoke in favor of the changes.

Originally posted by wabisabi
....
Anyway, the case was continued again until Sept 25th (afternoon) to hear staff comments, and questions from the planning commission.

Afterwords, I talked with the secretary of the planning commission, and she said the next open night hearing is in November. So, I guess there is no chance to hear LCG before then.

-Wabisabi

P.S. There was no opposition to the proposed changes to the zoning resolution regarding telecommunications. Both broadcasters and citizens spoke in favor of the changes. I guess I'm a bit confused by the statement " There was no opposition to the proposed changes to the zoning resolution regarding telecommunications. Both broadcasters and citizens spoke in favor of the changes."Are you saying that the Morrison plan is being mostly supported by everyone - including (S)CARE? Please elaborate...

On a more general note, I am disappointed this has been tabled for another 2 months (at least) BEFORE it gets to the Commissioners. I suspect the process will be lengthy when it reaches the Commissioners as well so I guess that means a final decision won't be made until 1st qtr '03 sometime. Assuming it gets approved it would be early '04 before KRMA gets on the air from Morrison.

As to the possible November date for the LCG app this doesn't really surprise me to much. I suspect it will take at least a year to get thru JeffCo meaning a decision won't be forthcoming until late '03. Add a year for construction (IF it's approved) and that likely means a late '04 or more likely an early '05 for an on air date. That means most of us will be unable to watch network HD for another 2 1/2 - 3 years.

Yeah, KUSA, I can see why you don't envision the need for a low power setup with full power "right around the corner". And hey, yeah, KMGH you are doing all 8 of your digital viewers a service for the next 3 years but geese, can't either of you come up with some sort of interim plan like KRMA or KCNC??? Look at it this way - if you put something temporary atop the Republic Plaza won't that help make your case that you need the full power facilities? I mean after all if, in a year from now, you're before the JeffCo Commissioners arguing your case they could turn it back on you and say you have no viewers and have made no attempt to garner any viewers. Seems to me that to argue from a position of strength, rather than weakness, it would be much better if you could say that local viewer demand for HDTV caused you to put low power facilities in downtown Denver, thus proving there is an actual and real need for the high power tower (because the low power setup only serves a portion of your viewers).

I guess I'm a bit confused by the statement " There was no opposition to the proposed changes to the zoning resolution regarding telecommunications. Both broadcasters and citizens spoke in favor of the changes."Are you saying that the Morrison plan is being mostly supported by everyone - including (S)CARE? Please elaborate...

After the Mt Morrison portion of the hearing, the planning commission heard a proposal to do some "housekeeping" to the zoning resolution. It is the same project that KWGN had originally objected to. What happened is that all controversial changes had been eliminated and what was left was truly minor corrections/changes. (for example, changing "power" to "Effective Radiated Power") No new definitions were introduced. Everyone seemed OK with the changes.

-Wabisabi

Ah, thanks. I guess this means "same type of service" applies to either digital or analog modulation - as long as the end result is the same type of service. This may seem to be a minor point but I think it very important....

Ah, thanks. I guess this means "same type of service" applies to either digital or analog modulation - as long as the end result is the same type of service. This may seem to be a minor point but I think it very important....

Not exactly... What it means is that it is still not defined in the zoning, and is therefore up to interpretation by the zoning administer. Just like it is now.

-Wabisabi

Okay, I finally understand. That explains why everyone agreed to the mostly non-changes...

Originally posted by Geof
Seems to me that to argue from a position of strength, rather than weakness, it would be much better if you could say that local viewer demand for HDTV caused you to put low power facilities in downtown Denver...

Yeah, but then again isnt it always safer to just tell the truth? ;)

Originally posted by DP1


Yeah, but then again isnt it always safer to just tell the truth? ;) Why wouldn't that be true? KUSA mentioned they had no plans to do anything but wait on the LCG app...if they (or KMGH) get enough complaints they could decide otherwise and do something on the Republic Bldg...

Originally posted by DP1


Yeah, but then again isnt it always safer to just tell the truth? ;)

Be careful what you wish for!!!! If KUSA (self proclaimed Denver's LEADER) told the truth, they would have to say they could care less when they get on the air, if ever. The reality with KUSA seems to be that they will do something to get on the air just as soon as the FCC tells them they will lose their existing analog license. The truth for KMGH is, they have already done all they care to do with digital, and are also in no hurry since the temporary low power transmission means they can claim to the FCC to be on the air and have even more time to stall than KUSA does. What was it Jack Nickleson said, "You can't handle the truth"! I think he is right. In this case I don't really want to hear the truth, I already can guess what it is.

Well my guess is that in a 1.4 million household DMA it would take more than a few hundred or even a few thousand complaints before one could even begin to call it a demand. Be it from the stations' or Jeffco's point of view.

And there cant possibly be a much higher percentage than that around here that truly care at this point, can there? Unless Denverite's are unique in some way compared to folks in L.A. and S.F and Boston and Dallas and so on where even though the channels are there for the taking "nobody" is.

Or maybe I'm wrong and if 10 or 12 ...or lets get totally crazy and call it 20!.. out of a 1000 households (the National average is about 4 but we'll quintuple that to account for half or something slightly more of the population living where theres not enough if any digital channels up and running) are chomping at the bit and ready, and willing to start tuning in digital OTA signals that it calls for immediate action based on demand alone.

If KUSA (self proclaimed Denver's LEADER) told the truth, they would have to say they could care less when they get on the air, if ever. The reality with KUSA seems to be that they will do something to get on the air just as soon as the FCC tells them they will lose their existing analog license.That seems to be the reality of it. I still think we should be boycotting these bas****s. One of the problems with KUSA waiting so long is that their Engineering staff will have little or no H/DTV experience until the LCG is finally able to build something somewhere (unless they hire some talent from another station). KCNC Engineering has done a bang up job but they have struggled with audio issues and (I suspect) are still learning quite a bit about the digital side of things. Of course KRMA is also up on the learning curve and to a lessor extent so is KMGH. With luck so will KWGN. Our so-called "news leader" will be sucking the hind-tit of technology when they finally get off their dead asses and I wonder how that will affect their future....

Well Dan, demand is what you make of it - it's all relative. Right now there is a demand for it in this area. Perhaps not significant in terms of overall demand for TV but likely similar to the demand for HDTV in the rest of the country.

Add a year for construction (IF it's approved) and that likely means a late '04 or more likely an early '05 for an on air date. That means most of us will be unable to watch network HD for another 2 1/2 - 3 years. I think i'm going to BITE the bullet and get ExpressVu (BITES is more like it)
Since this is related to our mess, what's the latest in HD from Canada's ExpressVu? Can you still get NBC & ABC in HD from Boston? Is that currently only part-time?

Originally posted by Geof
...but likely similar to the demand for HDTV in the rest of the country.

Right, but which to my simple way of thinking is virtually non-existent (at least as of now) and as such is hardly grounds for making a case based on it. Which is why I made my wiseass remark to begin with.

But anyyyyyway, I do agree that it's shameful that KUSA hasnt at least cobbled something together..the whole darn mess is shameful for that matter.

I'm sure KUSA is worth a buck or three. It's not like some station in Rapid City S.D. with 88,000 viewers where the cost of the digital transition approaches the actual worth of the station overall (see that story in the USA Today the other day?). I have no idea how those stations are ever going to manage it. Maybe they'll just fold the tent, and maybe thats a good thing who knows.

But then again, who cares. This isnt the "USA DTV Issue's" thread, it's the "Denver HDTV Tower" thread.

Right, but which to my simple way of thinking is virtually non-existent (at least as of now) and as such is hardly grounds for making a case based on it. Which is why I made my wiseass remark to begin with.Every little bit helps. These stations are trying to get zoning changed to allow them to build their tower. To that end they can use every bit of help they can muster. By sitting on the sidelines and not cultivating viewers stations like KUSA are not helping their cause. On the contrary, if KUSA, KMGH, KCNC, KRMA (and KWGN and KDVR) were all available to at least a portion of the viewers within their DMA they would, in essence, be helping to create new viewers (supply creates demand). More viewers means more potential support for their tower proposal which can only be a good thing. Sitting on their butts with the thumb sticking where the sun don't shine doesn't help accomplish anything and (IMO) is immensely telling of motivations...

I agree with that Geof. But that sounds more like making the argument that *after* you installed low power "solution" you found that there was a demand for it once people became aware of what they were missing. As opposed to saying demand is what caused you to put up a low power solution to begin with... which is how I read it the first time. But as you've followed up with, demand is in the eye of the beholder.. so I suppose if they had 1000 people hounding them *they* could consider that ..demand.. (if they wanted to) and "testify" to it as such.

And Ernie, yeah they show ABC and Leno. ABC takes precedent over CBS usually in Primetime when ABC is showing HD cause they also have access to CBS from the west coast that they can show afterwards. Then Leno comes on during the week after the east coast primetime. And during the day they usually show Y&R twice E/W and the PBS demo that we see here at night. They've shown a couple of the NBC/HDNet NBA games on past weekends as well.

But see the thing is they're juggling all this on only one actual channel due to bandwidth constraints which up til now they've pretty much gotten away with because NBC hasnt had much else. But come the fall it sure seems like there will be times when conflicts will happen (since I believe NBC is adding another 8 or 9 hours a week) and then you're at the mercy of their control room as to which show they think is more popular I guess.

They're launching a new bird this fall/winter to add much more capacity (including HD presumably) but it wont be functional until early next year I believe if all goes well.

Originally posted by santellavision
I think i'm going to BITE the bullet and get ExpressVu (BITES is more like it)
Since this is related to our mess, what's the latest in HD from Canada's ExpressVu? Can you still get NBC & ABC in HD from Boston? Is that currently only part-time?

They've got 3 HDTV movie channels (cycling through about a dozen movies) and a "network" HDTV channel. Lineup for this week was/is:

The Young and the Restless - July 15-19
The Tonight Show - July 15-19
King of Queens - July 15
Yes, Dear - July 15
Everybody love Raymond - July 15
Becker - July 15, 16
Crossing Jordan - July 15
JAG - July 16
The Guardian - July 16
Judging Amy - July 16, 17
My Wife & Kids - July 17
American Family - July 17
The Desert Speaks - July 18
CSI - July 18
The Agency - July 18, 19, 20, 21
The District - July 20, 21
Touched by an Angel - July 21

[removed information obsoleted by Dan's post while I was typing]

I got a standard definition ExpressVu system from the nice folks at www.kusat.com -- the wife didn't like the $500 price tag for the HD model. I'm thinking of going that way myself since I already have the dish and wiring in place.

Let's take a quick look down the road and think about demand....

A member posted a response from an ABC exec concerning MNF in this thread: (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155043&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) "We are working on it and hope to have the production equipment ready to do the Super Bowl this season (along with the Stanley Cup and the NBA Playoffs), and the full season of MNF next season."With the current setup at KMGH most everyone will miss out on these primo HDTV broadcasts...Think about how many HD viewers could be lured into Soundtrack (et-al) to be able to watch the SB or Stanley Cup in HD (particularly if the Broncos or Avs make it to the big game), or MNF next year...As it stands now there would be little incentive for anyone outside a very small radius to spring for HDTV's because only a select few can receive KMGH DT. I don't know what (if anything) is on the plate at NBC Sports but hey, we missed some decent HD Olympic coverage because KUSA doesn't care so it wouldn't surprise me to see something similar happen again...

Thanks guys!
I've been checking the ExpressVu site, but it's always better to ask the people who have it to make sure what's really available. Yeah, it'll be interesting this fall to see what happens and what gets priority until they get more bandwith (I hope that doesn't mean still another dish - aaaaaah! That'll be 4 on my townhome. I'm not gonna' be liked too much.

Oh, two questions...
Are you guys set up thru Freeway Support?
And does the 18" dish work OK or do you need the 24"?

18" works OK for me; I get mid 70s signal strength. I should be able to get better, but, ehh. The bigger dishes are recommended for folks who live further north -- the further you are from the equator, the bigger dish you need to get the signal. If you have an extra DirecTV or Dish Network dish/LNB, you don't need a special ExpressVu dish. AFAIK, they're completely interchangeable. It's the RECEIVER that has to be EVu branded.

I'm actually set up at my "home" address, back in BC. I send my folks some money and they take care of paying it for me. Freeway Support has a decent reputation for people who don't have family/friends north of the border.

Nah, it wouldnt mean 2 dishes for Evu alone. Their new slot is going to be at 82 and with the present one at 91 they'll be using a Dish500 for both slots (same 9 degree spacing as 110/119).

Oh and in regards to the HD movie channels there is 3 but 2 are PPV and one of those uses a French soundtrack so actually theres only one. And as dr mal said theres not much selection. Not to mention it costs an extra 15.00 or so a month because one has to sub to the SD movie channel package to get it.

Originally posted by Geof
Let's take a quick look down the road and think about demand....



And just for fun we could take a look back and talk about demand...

Theres been 2 HD Super Bowls (1 including a NYC team), a digital widescreen Super Bowl, some other miscellaneous NFL regular season and Playoff games, 3 Masters Golf Tournaments, 2 U.S. Open Tennis tourneys, at least 2 NCAA Final Fours, some NBA games, Olympic coverage, MNF for one season, CBS with 2 full seasons of Primetime fare, ABC with one season, and some glorious PBS HD over the last couple years. Oh, and the chin dude.

Then for the sake of completeness (I guess) one could look at all the millions of DirecTv customers that live in big cities where if all of the above hadnt been enough to prompt them to buy a new DirecTv HD receiver to receive all that type of programming then or in the future with it's OTA tuner *plus* now in the last year HDNet with it's NHL and MLB coverage not to mention everything else it offers as well as HBO HD.

ALL THAT and we're sitting at 400K tuners nationwide?? And not even that many households because many of the households that have bought 1 tuner have bought multiple units. Especially considering theres been 2.9 million digital tv's themselves sold..what gives? Even the folks that bought $2,3,4K+ tv's cant afford the tuners at 5 or 600? Maybe, but sadly that doesnt look to change anytime soon either with for example Samsungs new units at 500 and 800 dollar MSRP's respectively. Lack of recording option maybe? Well I guess <ahem> thats been solved now that theres 1500.00 HD VCR's out there.. oh, that dont even have built in tuners.

But yeah, I know, another meaningless point by Dan because whats done is done and it's time to look towards the future.. and with that in mind, one thing I grant you. No matter how many tuners have been sold in the Denver region heretofore, many many many many more would have been sold and stand to be sold if the stations had been doing, or begin to do whats been mandated to them.

Whether thats the difference between 400 and 4000 or 2000 and 20,000 I cant say. I could only guess based on data from other cities where many of the stations have been doing the right thing for awhile now.

Regardless, lets get all the channels doing what they need to be doing first and then worry about how many people at *that* point give a crap, right?

Originally posted by markdl


Thanks for the update, Don! Why would the county let you broadcast at half power but not a full power? You'd still have to make the tower modifications, and wasn't that what was denied in your application?

If you were able to get on the air at 450kW, what a slap in the face to the "big" stations that would be! Go KWGN!

This 1/2 power solution is on our shorter tower. It is NOT our intention to "slap" the other stations. We are ALL just trying to get on the air.

Hope it works out Don. I'd virtually given up on any sort of Network television up until a couple years ago. Now I'm back on board with CBS and ABC due to the HD. I trust it would be the same with some shows on your Network which I've basically never even tuned to for more than 20 minutes at a time no matter what the programming since I could never get a good picture.

Originally posted by DP1
Hope it works out Don. I'd virtually given up on any sort of Network television up until a couple years ago. Now I'm back on board with CBS and ABC due to the HD. I trust it would be the same with some shows on your Network which I've basically never even tuned to for more than 20 minutes at a time no matter what the programming since I could never get a good picture.

Currently, The WB network is planning to present the following shows in HDTV:
Smallville
Everwood (news show set in Colorado)
Reba
Family Affair

These shows will be delivered to us in 1080i and we are currently configuring our studio plans to allow pass thru at 1080i

Please let me know what area of town you are in (major cross streets) & what your specific reception problems are with Channel 2.

Don

Yeah I thought I read where the WB had plans for 4 shows in HD and I'm looking forward to checking those out if it's in the cards.

In regards to channel 2 up until 2 years ago I had lived up in Deer Creek Canyon and never even bothered with any sort of OTA antenna but did catch ya once in awhile on C-band. Since I've moved back down into town (Ken Caryl and Wads) I've been so gung ho on HD (wanted the HDTV for 6 months before that but didnt want to have to move it so I had it delivered the first week here) both OTA and satellite that I havent given any real consideration to channels that didnt offer it. Not enough time between the HD viewing and DVD's. I dont sub to my local channels on DBS so to get them it would have to be OTA and I dont even have any sort of VHF antenna set-up. I have a big Yagi pointed at downtown for 17,18 and 35 which also gets me 32 (though I rarely ever tune to it.. no HD and now perpetually jacked up widescreen even) since they're a little higher power anyway, as well as gets me the higher numbered VHF channels at least enough to view if I really had to. But like I say, I really dont have cause to otherwise watch anything on VHF channels anyway.

I'm sure I could get you adequately if I put some effort into it but there hasnt been any reason for me to. Get a digital channel on air though and I've been known to climb up and down off the roof 20 times in an hour to get it at all costs. And make no mistake, actually watch it then too for all my "troubles". At least for awhile and then it still comes down to principle like HD and/or content in general itself of course.

Funny how that works aint it? ;)

Any idea if a 1/2 power solution would get the signal out to Brighton :D

I can just barely get KCNC, and I was able to get KRMA for 1/2 hour one night.

Just for the record guys, I wouldn't spend too much time in open forums discussing the details of how you subscribe to the Canadian services. EVu has a MAJOR suit in Canada winding its way up through the courts to force Direct and Dish to stop allowing subscriptions to their services from Canadian "providers' in the US. If EVu wins that one you can bet there will be a serious attempt by Dish and Direct to reciprocate by forcing shut offs of EVu services in the US. Certain 'providers' are well known and would likely be the first ones hit with a suit. My humble recommendation is to discuss the logistics offline. I use Star Choice for my own Canadian content (hockey!!!!), and really don't want to lose it. The less Dish folks see the details advertised in forums, the less they will be worried about shutting things off. I would guess there is a significant number of Dish employees in this town, including the CEO.

As for Geof's comments about no DTV till 2005, I still think your an optimist. You assume that there will be someone actually pushing the application through with vigor (I'm still not convinced anyone on any side will be really pushing on this one), and also that no one from (S)CARE will file a law suit if the application is approved. I still think you can add another year or two to your figure. As for a demand here in Denver, I don't see how it could ever reach critical mass when there is, for all practical purposes, no existing service for people to see and know what they are missing. Otherwise, you would have to have enough people move here from out of state that are used to receiving HD to create the demand. I, for one, don't really have a big desire to invite that many people here to share our water supply just so I can watch HD.

Originally posted by dr_mal
Any idea if a 1/2 power solution would get the signal out to Brighton :D

I can just barely get KCNC, and I was able to get KRMA for 1/2 hour one night. I don't want to speak for Don but I'd be very surprised if you couldn't get a 1/2 power KWGN DT signal. KDVR is broadcasting about 1/3 power while KRMA DT and KCNC DT are something less than 2 percent of full power....

John, I agree that a lawsuit is a possibility and that would likely add 6-12 months (or more) to the timetable. We'll miss out on a lot of HD in the interim. Like I said above, KUSA and KMGH should rethink their current situation because they are not helping their cause much with their present situation. I can't believe it would cost KMGH much to move to the Republic Plaza (they obviously have the necessary HD equipment in their studios and "only" need a higher antenna position). If they were to move (and gain a lot more viewers), and KWGN gets on the air, the only major stations in town that won't be broadcasting digitally would be KUSA and Ch 20. I'd like to believe that KUSA would find that an unacceptable situation - but then again maybe not.....

This 1/2 power solution is on our shorter tower. It is NOT our intention to "slap" the other stations. We are ALL just trying to get on the air.Don,
Do you think it's that easy to start Digital broadcasting on lookout from your short antenna at 1/2 power? Can you do that without getting approval from the JeffCo Circus?
I remember at your antenna meeting where you stated that what's 'in the x-mitter building' is already zoned & approved. Changing the 'Antenna' was that issue. So you think you can put your new digital x-mitter in the existing building and 'Rock-N-Roll' I hope it's just that easy!

But...
I bet (S)Care's already got the lawyers writing the injuction to stop you right now. They'll find some study about the harmful effects of your digital frequency on the sleep patterns of the recently found, 'Endangered-Short-Sighted-Nimby-Toad"... Remember him?

Do you think it's that easy to start Digital broadcasting on lookout from your short antenna at 1/2 power? Can you do that without getting approval from the JeffCo Circus?

If you look at what Don said, you will notice that he talked about discussions with Jeffco.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT

...
In the meantime, we have had some favorable discussions with the County for a 1/2 power (450kW) solution from our site.

Don


-Wabisabi

In the meantime, we have had some favorable discussions with the County for a 1/2 power (450kW) solution from our site.
So, how does that work? Why do we have all these Adjustment & Commisioners public meetings, submit plan after plan, listen to all the (S)Care BS, when all you need to do is have a few private discussions, and then Bada-Bing, Bada-Boom, you've got their approval to start x-mitting without (S)Care stopping it?

wabisabi, you seem to know the system better than most, how does that work?

Don,
Thanks for the info regarding your plans to pass along the 1080i signal. Will you be 5.1 capable as well or will you be stereo for awhile?


BTW, I caught a bit of The Agency last evening and didn't notice any audio issues. I think the KCNC Engineering Staff deserves a round of applause......

So, how does that work?

Everything depends on the zoning. Like Fox, if you have the proper zoning, it is simply a matter of getting a miscellaneous permit. (of course, there are specified items that have to be submitted with the permit.) In a case like KWGN's, they are legal non-conforming towers. So, to add DTV they must follow the rules in section 6 of the zoning resolution. Section 6 allows new antennas (up to 25 feet in length, and 8 inches in diameter) to be added to towers under 200 feet tall. For towers over 200 feet tall, they can only replace antennas "with another antenna intended to provide the same service". Before applying for a permit, some broadcasters will sit down with the planning department to see if what they have in mind to do has a chance of being approved. Some just submit a permit application without discussing it with them first. Any decision made by the zoning administer to either allow or not allow the permit may be appealed to the board of adjustment. CARE appealed the permit allowing KDVR's antenna and lost. KCNC appealed the denial of the permit to allow low power DTV to be added to the backup tower on their site and lost. ( the issue in that case was that the "use" of the tower was being changed, something not allowed under section 6). Currently, KWGN is awaiting the results of their appeal that DTV and NTSC TV are the "same service".

Since Don said that he has had favorable discussions with the county about his 1/2 power solution on the short tower, I can only conclude that his short tower must be less than 200 feet tall, and that his proposed antenna must be less than 25 feet in length, and 8 inches in diameter.

I am anxious to hear what will happen when he tries to get a permit.

It's all very simple, isn't it? :confused:

-Wabisabi

Don,
I have more questions if you don't mind.

1) How will you deal with the other (non-HD) programming - will it be upconverted to 480p or 1080i? Will you maintain the 4:3 aspect ratio or will you stretch it to 16:9? Any plans to simulcast both 4:3 and 16:9 version of the SD programming? (FYI, folks around here pretty much hated the KDVR 14:9 apsect ratio).

2) Will your network feed be delayed or will you be broadcasting the network HD programming at different times than the NTSC broadcast?

3) Any plans to do Rocky games in HD in the next couple of years?

Great info Wabisabi, thanks.

Originally posted by Geof
I don't want to speak for Don but I'd be very surprised if you couldn't get a 1/2 power KWGN DT signal. KDVR is broadcasting about 1/3 power while KRMA DT and KCNC DT are something less than 2 percent of full power....


Wow -- I had thought that KDVR was at 3/4 or higher power. I can get their DT signal in the 90s as it is.

*crossing my fingers for KWGN 1/2 power* I'd watch WB in HDTV over NBC in SD any day. As a sign of solidarity (HDTV watchers UNITE!) I've stopped watching 9News 6am and switched to News4 6am. I'd missed Ed Greene's trivia in the morning...if only channel 4 could lure Kathy Sabine over :D

Right then...back on track...carry on...

Originally posted by Geof
1) How will you deal with the other (non-HD) programming - will it be upconverted to 480p or 1080i? Will you maintain the 4:3 aspect ratio or will you stretch it to 16:9? Any plans to simulcast both 4:3 and 16:9 version of the SD programming? (FYI, folks around here pretty much hated the KDVR 14:9 apsect ratio).

I don't particularly care if it's upconverted to 480p or 1080i - my set can do either. I do care about maintaining OAR. If it's made 4:3, show it 4:3. If it's made widescreen, show it that way. For stuff that's shown 4:3, PLEASE put grey bars on the sides a la KCNC.

Don,

In my post I wasn't meaning that you folks at KWGN were trying to "show up" the other big guys in town. I would just find it very ironic that the "little guys" made it to air before (and very likely LONG before) the "bug guys" made it.

I echo dr_mal's statement - please keep 4:3 AR shows 4:3. Please don't stretch them to 16x9, and please don't zoom and stretch them. I personally would like to see the grey bars on the sides of the 4:3 as well, but I know there are some projector owners in here that disagree with that sentiment. Also, if possible, please don't multicast if you can avoid it.

I looked back at an email you sent me last year that said you were planning on broadcasting in 720p. Did the WB people change their minds and decide to do the shows in 1080i instead?

Originally posted by dr_mal



*crossing my fingers for KWGN 1/2 power* I'd watch WB in HDTV over NBC in SD any day. As a sign of solidarity (HDTV watchers UNITE!) I've stopped watching 9News 6am and switched to News4 6am. I'd missed Ed Greene's trivia in the morning...if only channel 4 could lure Kathy Sabine over :D

Right then...back on track...carry on...

I agree with the effort to stop watching channel 9. In the mornings these days I am watching the Tour de France on OLN anyway. It is much more exciting that watching our neighbors houses burn in the mountains. I rarely watch local news anyway (usually read the paper for local stuff), and in the evenings if I am home I usually watch the HD feed of Leno from 9:35 to 10:35. That precludes watching local news from any channel. Although that is technically watching NBC, it sure isn't KUSA.

I am curious what the other stations think of KUSA in all of this. I assume that while KCNC and KMGH spent at least some significant money on their low power DTV setups, KUSA was dumping that money into their news department for their self serving adds and gimmicks. If I were the other stations I would be a tad PO'd that the stations are not working from a level playing field. It has got to be easier for KUSA to buy high tech news gadgets etc. to get higher ratings when they don't have to invest any money in HD.

I wonder how long it will be before KCNC or KMGH complain to the FCC about KUSA's attitude? Their refusal to do HD certainly gives them an unfair market advantage on the analog side. Maybe KCNC should start doing the local news with HD cameras to steal the audience from KUSA as the transition occurs. I too think it is time for KUSA to step up to the bar and show they really are number 'one' as they proclaim, and set up some kind of low power DTV station as a minimum. There will be a lot more NBC HD this fall.

In addition, I think it is time for KMGH to start considering some alternative to their DTV broadcast to the "lucky 13". This excuse of waiting to see if the LCG application will be approved is horse pucky. The application won't even be heard until this winter at best, and even the most optimistic person here (which of course in contrast to our own resident 'voice of reason', makes me the 'voice of doom') would say we are at least two years away.

I suppose we could complain to the FCC about KUSA although I've already tried hitting my head on that brick wall. I'm no broadcast TV expert but it seems to me that most all the equipment that KCNC and KRMA have in their studios (and are currently using for low power) will also be used for high power. It's not like they're going to throw a bunch of stuff away when the high power tower gets built. Sure they had to invest in a low power transmitter, an antenna, other stuff, and do some work getting permits and their setup going for Republic Plaza that would eventually be all for naught but I can't believe this is a serious amount of coin compared to what they'll end up keeping in the studio. This too leads me to the conclusion that KUSA really doesn't give a darn.....so how about the rest of us - are you ready to boycott 'em? (FWIW, I've been boycotting them, along with KMGH, for over a year now).

The only problem I see with boycotting them at the moment is that even if we all join in it seems like we only have about 30 folks. I am not sure, but I don't think that will have much of an impact at this point.:(
Maybe some letters to the editor in the local fishwraps would be more effective (as if anyone reading them would even know what DTV or HDTV is)?

Admittedly 30 or so is no great impact, but then again it's a start. If we cannot agree to this amongst ourselves then what signal does that send to KUSA?

I am all for letters - including letters to KUSA.....

-------

I got a nice email from Pete describing the LCG app process. I am sure others received this as well if you are on his list. I don't think there are reasons to not post it here so here it is (for those of you not on his email list):All,

As you know from the forum, we filed the zoning application for Lake Cedar Group last week. The key information is available on the web page (http://www.lakecedargroup.com/). I’ll be glad to provide you with any additional materials you may desire as well.

We meet with the planning staff this week and here is the tentative schedule as we are being told.

- Copies of the application were sent on Wednesday to various agencies include nearby home owners associations. They have until August 14 to provide comments to staff.

- Staff will then draft a letter to us by August 28th with their own comments identifying issues and requesting changes/more information.

- At that time, the ball is back in our court to respond.

- If staff chooses, they may repeat the process depending upon the extent of the changes we make.

- Then it goes to the Planning Commission. We were recently told the first hearing could be in September/October but learned this week that the earliest now is November. A retail project has become controversial and is scheduled for multiple hearings instead of just one as originally anticipated. Based upon past practices, I anticipate the County holding multiple hearings to cover all the public testimony.

- After the Planning Commission hears the case, it is sent to the Board of County Commissioners.

As you can see, everything after the August 28th day is subject to change depending upon many factors, perhaps most importantly, the availability of hearing dates.

Concurrent with this, we will continue to meet with interested individuals and groups. I’d appreciate any suggestions you may have in this regard.

We also recently received a formal determination from the Colorado Historical Society that the proposal will have no adverse impact on the surrounding historical sites.

Lastly, this week we requested the FCC dismiss LCG’s earlier request to, in effect, preempt Jeffco’s denial of the last application.

Well, that’s all for now. I will keep you posted as the application progresses. Thanks for your continued support and patience. Please call or write with any questions.

Sincerely,

PeteNote: I omitted his phone number...

As you can see this will likely be a lengthy process.....

Originally posted by dr_mal
Any idea if a 1/2 power solution would get the signal out to Brighton :D

I can just barely get KCNC, and I was able to get KRMA for 1/2 hour one night.

If you are successful in picking up KDVR-DT (32) you should be able to get us when we light up.

Don

[QUOTE]Originally posted by santellavision
[B]Don,
Do you think it's that easy to start Digital broadcasting on lookout from your short antenna at 1/2 power? Can you do that without getting approval from the JeffCo Circus?
I remember at your antenna meeting where you stated that what's 'in the x-mitter building' is already zoned & approved. Changing the 'Antenna' was that issue. So you think you can put your new digital x-mitter in the existing building and 'Rock-N-Roll' I hope it's just that easy!

Ernie:

I never said that I would do this without JeffCo permit approval!

Don

I never said that I would do this without JeffCo permit approval!
Don Don,

What i meant was, how come you don't have to go through the 'circus' of public hearing after hearing after hearing with (S)Care pulling all their 'low-blow' punches. I mean it sounds too easy to just go directly to them and say 'Hi, guys! 'Ya know... we'd like to use this little 'ol antenna we've got out back to start broadcasting, oh, say, half-a-million watts, it's not a big deal is it?

Well, after all (S)Care's PAC group strength and my little chat with that angry, hostile b**** from the City/Mountain News, i didn't think you could get JeffCo to listen to you guys and just say... "OK, no problem". I would have thought that anything related to new x-mitters and additional RF on lookout would be a huge political nightmare that no JeffCo commisioners would want to touch without public input.

P.S. Also, i didn't want to ask you personally to reveal any 'secret' persons or tactics. Do what 'ya gotta' do to get it done!

Don,

One more question if I may (sorry for the redundancy if it's already been asked and answered).. If your discussions continue to go well as you would hope on this 1/2 power concept, whats the target date you're shooting for to begin transmitting.

I can't remember if anyone else has brought this up, but since we asked for it...

I was looking for local news at www.news4colorado.com (since I refuse to go to 9news.com anymore) and I saw a familiar picture along the left hand side menu bar with the text "HDTV Lake Cedar Group Application". It links to a brief story (looks like cut and paste from LCG homepage) and directs viewers to go to www.lakecedargroup.com for more information.

Hey, it's not a 30 second PSA, but it's on their front page on the web. Hopefully people notice it...

(I feel dirty)

I just went to www.9news.com to verify that they were still doing nothing to promote HDTV. At the BOTTOM of their graphic side bar (compared with the TOP at KCNC :p), there's a "HDTV Facts" button that links directly to www.lakecedargroup.com

KMGH, KTVD, and KRMA have no mention of Lake Cedar group on their main pages (thedenverchannel.com, upn20.tv, and rmpbs.org respectively), although KRMA has a pretty decent "What is DTV?" section that's been up for quite some time.

Edit -- 9news isn't linkly DIRECTLY to lakecedargroup.com -- their link is to www.9news.com/counters/hdtv.asp (which redirects to the LCG page) -- they're keeping track of how many people are clicking that button. I didn't notice similar functionality on other buttons on their main page. Maybe they DO want to know how much interest there is for HDTV in Denver.

Well, let's all click on dr_mal's link and let them know how much interest there is here. If they're keeping track, I want them to know that I want it!

Use Area D: This area shall be a principal development area of the Site. Permitted uses shall including the following Principal Uses:
Radio frequency uses regardless of the modulation, frequency, regulatory status, or Federal Communications Commission (FCC) authorized class of uses or users, and whether or not a currently authorized service. Such permitted uses include, without limitation; microwave transmission and reception; satellite transmission and reception; weather radar including Doppler; wireless telephony uses; paging; private radio; public safety uses, and ancillary uses. Such uses shall include the erection and installation of towers, other support structures, antennas, accessory buildings, and transmission and reception equipment.There shall be no more than xx ground-mounted weather radar antennas. Said antennas shall not exceed xx’ in diameter or xx’ and height and shall be painted to match the colors of the surrounding environment, I was just reading through the proposal on the LCG's website. Is this the exact language in the proposal? Are they leaving the door open for additional 'Doppler Radar Antennas' And did they really put xx in place of 'real' numbers?

Don,
If i remember correctly, today's the day-right?
Can you please let us all know the JeffCo verdict on the KWGN antenna.
Thanks!

KWGN LOST.

Digital TV is not the same service as analog TV according to JeffCo. Amazing......

And yes, before anyone asks, I now believe JeffCo is a large part of the problem.

I think it is safe to say that anyone who thought we were going to see DTV and DTV HD in this area within two years is now officially out of their minds. This would seem to cement the Jeffco position against the implementation of DTV in the Denver area. They do not see it as the same service as analog. If I was KWGN I would shut off the analog and just put the DTV there and tell Jeffco to go fly a kite! It might not bring many viewers in the short term, but it would get the point across.

On the bright side, this could mean a mini boom in the Canadian dish market and the BUD market. Personally I can't wait to see all those 10 foot BUD's sprouting up around Jeffco. Here's hoping a lot of them are on rooftops visible from the offices of the Jeffco Commissioners. Perhaps we should take up a collection to buy a BUD for each one of the neighbors of the commissioners, just so they can see what they have brought about.

Bottom line appears to be that (S)CARE tactics work and money talks.

Maybe Mark Cuban could buy some of the stations and file for permission....????? You know, if this whole thing wasn't so absurd it might be funny. Talk about embarrassing, the rest of the country has got to be laughing at us and the Jeffco commissioners stupidity.

I guess I'm not sure what this means to KWGN's efforts to get on the air. I know they may be able to implement a 1/2 power solution but I'm guessing they'll have to go thru a process similar to KRMA and the LCG for their full power solution. I wonder if they'd now consider joining the LCG and/or take the KRMA spot if the Morrison proposal passes (yeah, like that's gonna happen). At the very least I hope KWGN pursues this in Jefferson County District Court.

I am utterly shocked by this nonsense and perhaps I am overreacting but I think it may be time to move on and forget about digital TV in the Denver market. The stations aren't willing to go anywhere except along the Front Range in JeffCo and JeffCo has pretty much shown their colors. Push has come to shove and we're all losing out. Stations Like KUSA refuse to even consider an alternative and KMGH has their butt covered with an almost equally effective alternative as KUSA. None of the stations are promoting DTV or even giving their viewers PSA's to educate them and the FCC has been and is likely going to be of no help.

I see reelection signs for Richard Sheehan - perhaps the JeffCo voters will cast their vote for the other guy, but I suspect that in the end it won't matter who's elected. This is a sad sad sorry state of affairs.

Geof
I really wish I could disagree with your pessimism about DTV in this market but I can't. The stations don't want to pay for it, our 'leading station' doesn't give a cr*p about it, and the Jeffco Commissioners appear to be bought and paid for by the richest folks in the (S)CARE group. I suppose the case could be made that this is just the 'free market' winning out, but that is only true if the 'fee market' refers only to people with a lot of money, like the (S)CARE folks who seem to be able to impose their self serving will over the millions of viewers on the front range. I imagine there must be a parallel to the executives at Enron or WorldCom, but I will let someone else flush that one out. It is obvious the (S)CARE homeowners stand to make windfall profits if they can shut off OTA TV in the Denver market, and with the Jeffco Commissioners in their pockets they just might pull it off.

I do believe it is safe to say that DTV is dead in the Denver market. It is obvious there is no way that Jeffco will ever approve the LCG or Morrison application (not that KUSA will be too bent out of shape). That is why I made my comments about getting dishes set up in your yards. It appears this will be the only way to see DTV in this area. Since the networks (like KUSA etc.) won't allow legal out of market DTV to be received off of American satellite, and the bandwidth will never be available for all local stations to be on satellite in HD, I guess people will have to use other means. Thanks Jeffco!

It appears that this JeffCo decision means that even if one of the stations wanted to change nothing, except the modulation type, they'd be un-allowed to do so. Until this so-called ruling today each station had the option (however unattractive for a number of reasons) of keeping their old channel assignment but change from analog to digital. Can't do that now because even though I watch both sets of pictures on my TV they are not both TV....

I wonder if JeffCo is working on a new set of definitions for the various types of phone service....digital cellular, analog cellular, wired, digital cordless, analog cordless, spread spectrum cordless, 27 MHz, 900 Mhz, 2.7 Ghz....since each of these are different they certainly can't all be phones.....

In markets such as Denver where the local stations are in non-compliance with the FCC deadlines, why can't the satellite providers offer national feeds of the major network HD programs? The SAT companies are already offering the local channels so why would the local channels object to HD broacasts. It seems to me that DirecTv and Dish could expand their customer base by offering something that we unfotunately cannot get in the Denver area. Iwould also think that the SAT cos. could justify using satellite capacity for four or five national network HD feeds given the broad appeal of new network HD programming. If more people had easy access to HD programming, the demand for it would increase exponentially making it more difficult for those who wish to delay HD in Denver.

Ohhhh, if only it were that easy Iwant. Actually Charlie Ergen did propose doing just that last September:
-------------------------------------------------------
EchoStar Communications Corp. is seeking federal approval to offer digital-broadcast signals in markets where TV stations have failed to meet digital-TV rollout deadlines set by the Federal Communications Commission.

By next May, all 1,300 commercial TV stations are required to transmit digital signals, but the industry expects about one-third of those stations to miss the deadline and seek extensions from the FCC.

EchoStar -- the No. 2 direct-broadcast satellite carrier, with 6 million subscribers -- is asking the FCC to deny waivers to the affiliates of ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox unless those stations agree to allow EchoStar to provide out-of-town digital-TV signals in markets where the rollout has stalled.

'Under our proposal,' EchoStar chairman Charlie Ergen said in a Sept. 20 letter to FCC chairman Michael Powell, 'a broadcaster that fails to meet its digital deadline would not be able to receive relief from the [FCC] while denying consumers digital television.'

EchoStar said its proposal would serve the dual purpose of exposing consumers to broadcast digital-TV signals and spurring TV stations to advance the build-out of digital TV has quickly as possible.

'In other words,' Ergen explained, 'if the broadcaster will not provide consumers with a digital signal, we will.'

The National Association of Broadcasters, which represents hundreds of network affiliates, immediately rejected EchoStar's proposal. For years, the NAB has been fighting satellite carriers that invade local TV markets with network programming from out-of-town markets.

'Given the tremendous effort broadcasters have made and are making to meet the DTV deadlines, Mr. Ergen's request is ridiculous on its face,' NAB spokesman Dennis Wharton said.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course we never heard any more about it except for the NAB immediately dismissing the mere thought of it.

First off, you'd have to get the Network heads to agree to it (aside from CBS which already has) then not to mention all the local stations themselves that arent corporate owned, because getting waivers from them for an imported signal is like pulling teeth. Remember, theres a difference between the 2 signals beyond one being HD and one not. And thats that the National channel wouldnt have any local commercials. Mind you though on one hand most stations around the country will tell you theres no potential viewership to there would be digital signal, so you'd think they wouldnt mind granting a few waivers in the meantime since theres no eyeballs to lose. But they want it both ways I guess.

Oh well, again though you have to get the National signals up on sat to begin with and I'm not so sure how close we are to seeing that. Not from a U.S. DBS company anyway. ;)

I think if I was the Networks (CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX, etc.) , I'd put a clause in that the network can offer out-of-market HDTV feeds to the Denver market until the station gets a full power transmitter on the air. Then start doing it - immediately. Advertise the fact (and make the appropriate deals with E*).

Has anyone noticed dropouts on the KRMA (channel 18) picture lately? I see this on all the national feeds while the local stuff (demo loop, etc) is fine. The picture pixelates and breaks up every second or two, while the sound is OK. I sent them an email, but got no response.

Thanks for the link Dan, hopefully Charlie and the boys will keep trying. The mood should begin to change with members of the NAB now that the networks are spending more money and time to offer original HD programming. If CBS believes that a network HD pass through can give them a leg up on the other networks they should make every effort to do so. I also believe that our local channels would be more aggressive in their efforts with Jeffco or alternative sites if the big brother networks exerted more pressure on them by requiring national HD feeds in markets that are denying their customers local OTA HD service.

Dennis
I have noticed a similar problem although I have not watched the local loop lately. I wrote it off as poor summer reception due to trees and simply use the national satellite feed. My KRMA reception in general has been very poor since about May, but I am also on the ragged edge of acceptable signal.

As for the discussion of getting networks on a national satellite feed from someone like Dish, don't get your hopes up. It is VERY unlikely at best. The CBS thing is a fluke and only O&O station areas can get it. Even if the networks were on satellite (which I doubt will ever happen), don't think KUSA or KMGH are going to allow you to receive it for a minute. Besides, if they allowed reception here, other cities, especially the smaller market still setting up transmitters, would want their reception from satellite to avoid towers. It would set an unacceptable precedent and likely drive a lot of small market stations off the air. I think it is time to face the facts, (S)CARE and Jeffco and the stations here have screwed us and there just isn't much any of us can do about it.

FYI: An affiliate has exclusive rights to air network programming within their DMA; No one else can air that programming because the affiliate has exclusive rights to it in their DMA. The only way you could get the programming from another source is by getting a waiver from the local affiliate. Without a waiver no one will offer the programming to you (or they'd get sued). The odds are slim to none that KUSA and/or KMGH would give any of us a waiver because they aren't broadcasting H/DTV. That said, those pesky BUD owners (just kidding jm) have a free ride and can get network TV from just about anywhere.

The CBS situation is a bit different because (as John said) it applies only to CBS Owned and Operated (O&O) stations. Since CBS owns and operates KCNC they have agreed to give all KCNC viewers a blanket waiver to get CBS DT from DBS.

As to the KRMA situation, I'm in much the same boat as John - it really hasn't come in too well since spring...

Well you know, speaking of waivers that are needed whether it's for HD or even SD and how stations never want to give them... It's gotta simply boil down to money right. They have this belief that it'll hurt their bottom line. What other reasons could there be..the "principle" of it? Shaaaa right.

I was thinking that the National delivery system could work..at least in the interim especially in the smallest markets where digital transition truly is a burden on those stations. Or markets like ours of course, too... where it's not. ;)

Why not kick back some of the fees that one pays to get distant channels over satellite to the local stations that would be granting waivers themselves. As it stands, dont all the fees go to the channel being purchased (and DBS's cut)?

Some might say..no, no no, it shouldnt have to work that way..they should be forced to grant waivers regardless. Well I dont know about that, I'm just trying to see if theres a possible middle ground. Naturally you'd make the HD waivers revokable too upon the local station having their own (proper) signal.

Yeah I suppose one could say that a buck per month per sub subscribing to distants wouldnt add up to much to the station. And perhaps not. But then again are they really losing much advertising wise if it'd only be 10 out of a 1000 of their viewers for the foreseeable future that were subbed to the distant HD feed anyway?

I didn't know that others were seeing the same problem with KRMA too, I thought it was just because I was on the fringe. One thing I have noted is that my Unity Motion stb is the one having problems locking on the signal. Several times I have tried the Zenith stb (I think it is a second generation OTA receiver unlike the UM which is definitely first generation) and the Zenith has been able to achieve a more stable lock. In my set up though, it is easier for me to turn to the national PBS DTV feed simply by moving my BUD and switching the channel on the UM. In order to use the Zenith, I have to crawl around back of my set boxes and swap out the cable from the antenna and also the video HD outputs to the TV. More of a pain than it is worth when the signal is available elsewhere. I never have a problem receiving the satellite feed.

Yeah I've noticed that on 18 too some nights when flipping by. Between that and Fox still not having the 480p stuff worked out, I'm not sure what thats telling us.

Thanks JM. Just wanted to be sure it was not my setup. I have received 18 with a signal strength of 64 (DTC 100) since I put my antenna up a few months ago. It has not varied a bit. It is 64 when a local feed is on or when national is on (32 and 35 are also at strength 64). That is why I feel it is a KRMA problem. Their web site says they have a fund campaign to pay for the digital conversion (14.9 M, they say). I told them (email) I was going to make a contribution. Maybe it can be used to fix the signal!

Well you know, speaking of waivers that are needed whether it's for HD or even SD and how stations never want to give them... It's gotta simply boil down to money right. They have this belief that it'll hurt their bottom line. yeah, I believe it's something along the lines of more viewers = better Nielsen numbers = more advertising revenue. That said I'm not helping the bottom line of either KMGH or KUSA because I refuse to watch them. If there was a national system in place like you suggest and part of the subscriber fees were kicked back to the local stations then KUSA and KMGH would at least benefit from me because I'd sign up for such a subscription....for now tho they can "kiss it goodbye".

Originally posted by Geof
.... That said I'm not helping the bottom line of either KMGH or KUSA because I refuse to watch them. ..........then KUSA and KMGH would at least benefit from me because I'd sign up for such a subscription....for now tho they can "kiss it goodbye".

Geof

Bad news, but I don't think KUSA and KMGH really care if you watch or not! Oh, wait, they do want you to testify on their behalf in front of the Jeffco "bought and paid for by (S)CARE' Commissioners when the time comes. I think this falls under the "You scratch MY back and I'll stab yours" clause.

They only want and need HD 'wanna be' viewers when they need their testimony. I have concluded that the only reason they even asked the AVS members to get involved was so that they could point to us as an example when the FCC wants to know if they are working with the citizens of the area. KRMA and KCNC are under significantly less pressure from the FCC since they at least showed signs of trying with their low power set ups. KUSA, and KMGH to a lesser degree need our testimony and support in order to keep the FCC from getting suspicious of the fact they really don't want to be on the air. Ironically, it was KCNC and KRMA who invited us to their stations, the best KUSA and KMGH could muster up was a single representative to the meetings. So the truth is, you don't have to watch KUSA and KMGH, they don't care, just be sure though, that you are there to testify for them when the time comes.

So the truth is, you don't have to watch KUSA and KMGH, they don't care, just be sure though, that you are there to testify for them when the time comes.I don't care if they care....I care. Oh, and count me out for any testimony because I don't care, even though they may care. Geeze, enough care to (s)care....

Originally posted by JMartinko
My KRMA reception in general has been very poor since about May, but I am also on the ragged edge of acceptable signal.Funny how the signal is different for everbody. I'm pretty much your polar opposite jm, down in Elizabeth. I couldn't get KRMA at all until May. Now I get it at 30-40. With my stb's threshold at 34, some nights I get it-- some nights I don't.

Would you "care" to repeat that???
:D

The bad part of all of this is that since KUSA and KMGH are in the LCG with KCNC and KRMA, you end up screwing the ones at least trying to a degree, in order to show your disgust for the ones who don't try at all. I am not sure how I stand on all of this, but I do know I am getting real tired of this mess. It's too bad the FCC couldn't grow some chest hair and add some reason to all of this, but we know that's not going to happen.


"The Voice Of Doom And Gloom"!

The bad part of all of this is that since KUSA and KMGH are in the LCG with KCNC and KRMA, you end up screwing the ones at least trying to a degree, in order to show your disgust for the ones who don't try at all. I am not sure how I stand on all of this, but I do know I am getting real tired of this mess. It's too bad the FCC couldn't grow some chest hair and add some reason to all of this, but we know that's not going to happen. Maybe it hurts KRMA and KCNC but maybe not. If the application is doomed then no amount of testimony is going to change anything. As it stands right now I don't know if anything can get thru JeffCo. I still have the petitions and have promised everyone that I would get them to JeffCo to support the KRMA Morrison application. I will stand by that promise and present them at the appropriate time. Beyond that I make no promises to do anything more.

I tend to agree that the FCC will do nothing but I would hope the stations are all calling and asking them to define ATSC and NTSC as the "same type of service" (and I also hope KWGN's lawyers are working on filing a lawsuit in JeffCo to that end as well).

I wonder how many JeffCo planning and zoning/ Board of adjustment personnal and/or Commissioners own property on or around Lookout. Too bad 9News doesn't want to know.....maybe KWGN will investigate this......methinks I smell a rat.....

Well, the KWGN decision is certainly another blow by JeffCo. I'm hopeful for the backup 1/2 power plan, but since the county seemed to reject the same type of approach when they rejected the low-power KCNC plan, it makes it tough to be optimistic.

I will continue to write letters, etc. if it will help to support the proposals that are being considered by JeffCo (Morrison & LCG). JeffCo needs to see that there is demand for HDTV, and that it is (hopefully) growing.

Yes, we can complain about foot-dragging, etc. by the broadcasters, but I still think the best approach is to push them to submit their proposals to the JeffCo (which has now been done) and then support the proposals through the process with the county. That's about all that I can do. I want to see HDTV on the air.

In my opinion, even if you think the Denver broadcasters are all a bunch of jerks, you should still support the proposals that they have submitted if you want to see HDTV on the air. You aren't working for them, you are doing it because you want to see the introduction of this technology in this area, and you think that the proposal(s) are good ones to accomplish that. JeffCo needs to hear that.

Mark

In my opinion, even if you think the Denver broadcasters are all a bunch of jerks, you should still support the proposals that they have submitted if you want to see HDTV on the air. You aren't working for them, you are doing it because you want to see the introduction of this technology in this area, and you think that the proposal(s) are good ones to accomplish that. JeffCo needs to hear that.
Two days ago I would have agreed with that, and maybe I will again next week. But right now I'm not so sure it will make any difference whatsoever. I (most of us) don't live in JeffCo and I think they'd have to be real morons to not understand that their decision potentially affects millions of Front Range citizens. To hear from one or two or ten - eh, what's the point....

I live in JeffCo. Maybe it's not to late to run against Sheehan as a write-in. My platform will be "A digital tv signal reaching every home!!"

I'm guessing the final vote totals will be:

RS: 121,245
DP: 19 (maybe 20 if I can get the wife to buy in)

But by cracky, I'll have made a point! ;)

Go for it Dan - Go Dan Go -

I can buy....whoops, I meant lobby, a couple more votes for you... - See Dan Go -

With our newest loss in front of JeffCO, what do ya'll think of this. Pretty much INSTANT statewide recognition of the DTV transition problem, and the station's woes. You know how there are moments of silence for X, Y, or Z? Well how about a moment of silence for local television. Get everyone together, LCG, KWGN, FOX, etc. and on whatever the hottest night of the week is collectively, the hottest hour of the week, they go dead. No Analog. No Digital. No Cable Feed. No whatever.

I think 15 minutes should get the point across.

-John

Better yet, they can have a little slate up that says "To resume receiving your local television feed, call JeffCO at 303-XXX-XXXX. Ask them about the DTV Transition".

-John

OK, not as good, but fun too. :) Mike Rosen is sitting in for Rush Limbaugh tomorrow (Open lines Friday). As many of ya'll remember he hosted a local show a while back about the DTV transition problems here in DMA. We could take the opportunity to raise the issue of our problems to 20 million listeners <grin> Wonder if he would take that call. :p

JohnJr
Actually that is a brilliant idea.

Unfortunately the only way you could get the stations to buy in is if they were allowed to show 15 minutes worth of commercials instead of silence during that time. I am sure our local leader KUSA would never allow 15 minutes of air time without commercials, and the other stations would sure follow the 'leader'! Somehow I don't think 15 minutes of commercials would really be noticed in the community since that is only about 2 minutes short of what they already show now!!!
:D

Originally posted by JMartinko
JohnJr
Actually that is a brilliant idea.

Unfortunately the only way you could get the stations to buy in is if they were allowed to show 15 minutes worth of commercials instead of silence during that time. I am sure our local leader KUSA would never allow 15 minutes of air time without commercials, and the other stations would sure follow the 'leader'! Somehow I don't think 15 minutes of commercials would really be noticed in the community since that is only about 2 minutes short of what they already show now!!!
:D

Maybe Soundtrack, Listen Up, The Big Picture, etc, would "sponser" the non-event. ;)

-John

Actually, I like that sponsership thing. They could run a crawl at the bottom of the screen explaining why they are "dead-air" and what DTV (HDTV) is, what the problems are, what the solutions are, and meanwhile be "sponsered".

-John

The networks would probably wave penalties too, knowing that we have a very special situation here. Their advertisers would probably wave yelling at the networks. After all, wouldn't they love to be producing Hi-Def ads nationwide? :)

-John

JohnJr,
Why don't you submit your idea to Pete and ask him to test the waters with the LCG. Assumming they would buy into it perhaps the non-LCG stations would be interested....

Geof,

I assume (maybe wrongly) that Pete reads this forum daily. But yuppers, I will send him a pointer just in case. Thanks!

-John

Well, my email went succesfully to everyone but Pete :( His addy is pete@grinnellgrouX.XXX right? It bounced.

Note: I X.XXX on purpose.

-John

Yup. That's what's on his business card. 2 n's, 2 l's, 2 g's (non-contiguous), no X's

[P.S. I received your email]

Thanks Ron, and sorry for the SPAM. But when I get excited I get excited (everyone must hear this LOL). I'll try and resend it tomorrow (just to him), and worst case I see he has a phone # listed.

-John

The CBS situation is a bit different because (as John said) it applies only to CBS Owned and Operated (O&O) stations. Since CBS owns and operates KCNC they have agreed to give all KCNC viewers a blanket waiver to get CBS DT from DBS.

Is this actually possible on DirecTV?

I see no reason why DirecTv couldnt work it out with CBS if they wanted to. I just think DirecTv has always been a little more strapped for bandwidth compared to Dish (and their side slots) and they probably dont think it would be an effective use of their bandwidth to offer a channel that not even all of their HD customers would qualify for to begin with.

Hey John Jr.

I really like the idea of the stations going dark. It would certainly get the public's attention.

Unfortunately, it would also draw the attention of the FCC, an agency that might not cotton to the idea of the local stations using their federal airwaves in what would be seen as a political statement.

Not to mention the loss of revenue to the stations. I've yet to see a broadcaster that would volunteer to forgo spot revenue.

And it is more than possible the networks might object as well.

And I bet, in the end, the locals will need the good will of the FCC to intervene with Jeffco. In 2010, maybe.

Good concept; risky execution.

I really wish I could disagree with your pessimism about DTV in this market but I can't. The stations don't want to pay for it, our 'leading station' doesn't give a cr*p about it, and the Jeffco Commissioners appear to be bought and paid for by the richest folks in the (S)CARE group.

The Jeffco Commissioners had nothing to do with this decision. The zoning administrator made a ruling, KWGN appealed to the Board of Adjustment. The Board of Adjustment is made up of citizens, not elected officials. KWGN's next step is to appeal this decision to the disctrict court, or accept the decision.

Now, if the Jeffco Commissioners reject LCG2 and Mt Morrison, then maybe you can claim the the Commisioners are a big part of the problem.

-Wabisabi

(Just making sure the right people get the blame/credit.)

Well lets face it. If the stations actually wanted to get their "message" out to the masses they'd be doing already. For whatever reasons they're choosing not to. But if they ever did decide to rest assured they're not going to do it by torquing off a bunch of people who want nothing more than to sit down and simply watch "Friends" as they do every week thinking it's the coolest thing on earth.

Then again it would be kind of fun to see. The local stations dong a blackout in protest. Nevermind 15 minutes, how about 15 days. wonder what the FCC would do about that. Insist that they turn the signal back on? Well what if the stations just said to heck with it all and shut their doors.

I can hear Dan Rather already:

Top Story tonight.. Denver viewers held hostage: Day 11. In a bizarre twist the local Denver broadcasters have gone dark in protest of local county leaders rejecting all proposals to build a new state of the art digital television transmission facility as mandated to them by the FCC. After working diligantly for the past 4 years and to no avail they feel they have no other recourse than to show the Denver viewers that, barring a citizen uprising, tv in Denver will cease to exist.

As fate would have it though, all is not entirely lost. Some stations in the area do have temporary digital facilites to accomadate about 50 viewers that have purchased digital receiving equipment. Traffic is said to be snarled in various neighborhoods as the word got out that some tv's are still functioning. Local emergency rooms have been busy treating people for cuts and bruises after fisticuffs broke out at the various locales when heated arguments erupted as to whether to watch Who Wants to Be a Millionaire as opposed to Big Brother 3. In an attempt to cease the fighting Denver Police have designated certain viewers to only tune in one show or the other. It took some time to sort out logistically because only 13 viewers are known to get the ABC affiliates signal.

One angry viewer who had to travel some 7 miles to the nearest operating tv had this to say after being brought up to date on the crux of the matter: "Digital schmigital, I just want my Survivor!!"

We'll keep you updated on the situation as developments unfold..

In Business News, the Stock Market today....

Hey Dan, you must have some fantasy life --- not that I care to know more about it --- ;)

ROFL! Ok, point taken guys! :)

-John

Dan, I think your story, if nothing else, could be made into a movie of the week!

wabisabi, Isn't the processes that KWGN and LCG2 go through entirely different? As I understand it, KWGN was applying for a permit (they are zoned Agricultural - Non-Conforming), whereas LCG2 is an application for zoning change (they are currently Mtn Resident 1 - Non-Conforming).

My point being denial of KWGN (albeit for ludicrous reasoning) may not have much relevance to the outcome of LCG2.

Originally posted by RonAuger

wabisabi, Isn't the processes that KWGN and LCG2 go through entirely different? As I understand it, KWGN was applying for a permit (they are zoned Agricultural - Non-Conforming), whereas LCG2 is an application for zoning change (they are currently Mtn Resident 1 - Non-Conforming).

My point being denial of KWGN (albeit for ludicrous reasoning) may not have much relevance to the outcome of LCG2.

That was point as well. I was just trying to explain that the denial of KWGN's permit was not done by the Jeffco Commissioners.

-Wabisabi

We need to find out if there's any conflict of interest (I bet there is a ton!)

I plan on asking every JeffCo board member (next public meeting) which one of you who is making this decision, either owns or has family who owns property on Lookout, Genesee or the neighboring areas. You should recuse yourself from this decision immediately.

I plan on asking every JeffCo board member (next public meeting) which one of you who is making this decision, either owns or has family who owns property on Lookout, Genesee or the neighboring areas. You should recuse yourself from this decision immediately.
Yeap.

I'd further argue that similar info should be made public about the planning and zoning officials as well as those serving on the board of adjustments. If KWGN is going to pursue that crazy decision in court their lawyers should get that info because any conflict of interest may sure as hell have affected the outcome. It's time for the stations to up the ante and start playing hard ball.

Did everyone enjoy all that HD coming from Lookout this last weekend?

Oh, wait, I must have been dreaming about a galaxy far far away - from JeffCo and (S)CARE.

I need to keep telling myself it's okay that nothing is being done on Lookout - after all HDTV is not TV -- H/DTV has no ghosts, no snow, is DD capable and looks awesome on a widescreen TV. Sorry, I keep getting confused because in either case I use my TV to witness these differences.

Geof
I am sure it would be easier for you to understand the difference if your property values would double once you understood it. Maybe your just not trying hard enough.

"HD is different because it keeps your property value from doubling overnight". Now can you see the difference?????

I still find it hard to believe that property values are higher with more towers. The LCG consolidation plan would reduce the total number of towers.

Argh.

Yeah, that DT antenna would have no doubt ensured KWGN's long term tenure on Lookout. I suppose in (S)CARE's wildest dreams that might mean KWGN will move somewhere else and allow their property values to appreciate (while they get more sleep because of the lower RF levels).

In order for members of S(CARE) or anybody else for that matter to achieve the benefit of higher property values, wouldn't all towers have to be removed and all telecommunications activity halted? If OTA HD in the Denver area takes many years to accomplish there will always be the existing towers and their uses. It seems to me that reducing the number of towers and a general "cleaning up" of the appearance of the existing facilities on Lookout Mtn. would have a more positive impact on local property owners than pursuing the improbable goal of eliminating all activity on the site.

In order for members of S(CARE) or anybody else for that matter to achieve the benefit of higher property values, wouldn't all towers have to be removed and all telecommunications activity halted?On average that's probably true. However, if you had a tower in your backyard (so to speak) and it suddenly disappeared one day it seems plausible to me that the property would be easier to sell and command a higher price tag. Since real estate values depend (to some extent at least) on what your neighbors house sold for it again seems plausible to me that this could have the effect of raising the property values of the nearby homes.

I'm new here, is it in the (S)CARE agenda to have any towers removed regardless of the outcome of any tower proposals? If not, the tower consolidation portion of LCG2 should have a positive impact on local real estate values relative to the existing situation. It is not an "anti-HDTV "position that they are taking, it is a "don't injure me further" position, or "improve my situation" position. LCG2 appear to do that to a large degree.

The ultimate goal of (S)CARE is to have all towers removed from Lookout. They aren't necessarily anti-HDTV - just anti-tower (actually anti-RF) - regardless of whether the primary purpose is for TV, Radar, Radio, Telecommunications, etc (although I'm sure they'd like to see the higher power stuff removed first and that means TV). It remains to be seen if they'll ultimately accept a "make it better solution" but thus far they have fought everything and anything tooth and nail. You're right in that LCG2 would improve the situation but they are against that proposal.....

Is that a realistic goal? I don't see the TV stations vacating that site for any reason given the current zoning situation they have. If they have been allowed to use or lease that space for 50 years, they certainly aren't going to give that up unless there is something better. From what I read here there currently is no viable alternative. I guess reason and compromise are not part of the equation at this point in time.

Originally posted by Iwanthd
Is that a realistic goal? I don't see the TV stations vacating that site for any reason given the current zoning situation they have. If they have been allowed to use or lease that space for 50 years, they certainly aren't going to give that up unless there is something better. From what I read here there currently is no viable alternative. I guess reason and compromise are not part of the equation at this point in time. Realistic? No.

Possible? Yes.

NTSC will eventually go away. The marvelous brain trust at JeffCo has determined that HDTV is not TV (or more precisely ATSC is not the same service as NTSC) and therefore any changes to be made to accommodate the digital transition are subject to rezoning. Given that, if JeffCo continually denies any rezoning applications there is nothing the stations can do to modify their existing facilities (nor can they build new ones if the rezoning apps are denied) so when NTSC goes away so do the TV towers. Or so the theory goes, and it just might work in some cases. Unfortunately for (S)CARE, KDVR is already done and even though they keep trying to find ways to have the county make them undo the digital facilities they've been unsuccessful to date. So, it could be that the only station left on Lookout - after NTSC goes away - is KDVR. So far, with the exception of KDVR, (S)CARE is pretty much batting 100% in getting everything blocked.

The main reason I'm hoping that KWGN takes the "same service" ruling to court is because if the ruling stands the stations have no leverage (no fall-back position). They may never be able to build new facilites or modify existing facilities for H/DTV. As the ruling stands now (S)CARE senses the "kill" (so to speak) and will be unwilling to compromise on anything. On the other hand, if the "same service" ruling is overturned then the stations would have a fall-back position that could keep them on Lookout forever if they chose to modify their existing facilities. Given that scenario I think (S)CARE would be more willing to accept a compromise. In my mind getting the "same service" ruling overturned is almost paramount to getting LCG2 approved, (although I'm not sure the LCG stations realize this).

Now then, as a final fall-back, (S)CARE has gotten the Univ of Colo to do research on the health concerns of RF. They did get one official to claim there might be a credible link between the RF levels on Lookout and cancer (brain tumors I believe) and it is my understanding that they "fully expect" the study to link RF to bad health problems. This study is (I think) supposed to be released in 2004 and (S)CARE is banking on this being the nail in the coffin for the death of TV and Radio towers in all populated areas (and obviously on Lookout).

The picture is not too rosy and the stakes are very high, but I've seen no evidence the stations take any of this seriously.

(slightly off topic and definitely dreaming)

I just finished watching the Weird Al epic "UHF". I really liked the part at the end where the guy from the FCC goes up to the evil network station manager and tells him he hasn't filed his paperwork on time so he's revoking his licence to broadcast. Yeah, I liked that. Sigh.

Originally posted by KWGN-DT
[QUOTE]Originally posted by santellavision
[B]Don,
Do you think it's that easy to start Digital broadcasting on lookout from your short antenna at 1/2 power? Can you do that without getting approval from the JeffCo Circus?
I remember at your antenna meeting where you stated that what's 'in the x-mitter building' is already zoned & approved. Changing the 'Antenna' was that issue. So you think you can put your new digital x-mitter in the existing building and 'Rock-N-Roll' I hope it's just that easy!

Ernie:

I never said that I would do this without JeffCo permit approval!

Don

Don (a.k.a KWGN-DT)

Do you have any timetable as to when you might be able to get a half power transmitter approved and online? Which branch of the Jeffco anti-DTV roadblock would have to approve this transmitter? Any chance you can get on the air this fall season?

Is KWGN thinking about filing a law suit to overturn the recent Jeffco decision about DTV services not being the same as NTSC (even though they both are visible on my HDTV set)?

I would appreciate it if you can pass on any information to our forum on these issues without divulging information you are not allowed to make public at this time.

I got a reply from KRMA regarding the breakup I was seeing on their network feed. They talked to PBS HQ and they have discovered that the bit stream is being corrupted when they upgraded their encoder to provide closed captioning. They have gone back a level in software and say the problem is resolved. It evidenced itself on DTC 100 STBs and several, but not all, other STBs. I have been gone and actually have not had time to verify the fix.

It is interesting to me that my email complaining to KRMA about this caused PBS to look into the problem. Says something about the numbers of people who really watch HD on PBS -- clearly not a big number. Too bad.

One of you guys mentioned in an earlier post that KUSA would benefit from some experience in HD by putting up an interim transmitter. This problem at PBS is a clear example that KUSA would indeed benefit from dealing with early-on HD issues. Too bad they have their heads in the sand and ignore HD altogether.

Originally posted by JMartinko


Don (a.k.a KWGN-DT)

Do you have any timetable as to when you might be able to get a half power transmitter approved and online? Which branch of the Jeffco anti-DTV roadblock would have to approve this transmitter? Any chance you can get on the air this fall season?

Is KWGN thinking about filing a law suit to overturn the recent Jeffco decision about DTV services not being the same as NTSC (even though they both are visible on my HDTV set)?

I would appreciate it if you can pass on any information to our forum on these issues without divulging information you are not allowed to make public at this time.

JM:

We are still working with the County to get this going. We have applied for a Telecommunications Permit with the Zoning Department. Until we have permit approval it is hard for me to estimate when we would get on the air.

At this time I would rather not discuss any legal action.

Don (KWGN-DT)

One of you guys mentioned in an earlier post that KUSA would benefit from some experience in HD by putting up an interim transmitter. We would be the only ones who benefit by them putting together an interm 'low-power' x-miter.

KUSA would have to design, plan, budget (Remember, they are corporate owned) purchase, install, debug, train, etc. Think that's cheap? No wonder some small markets are going to delay as long as they can to install DTV. I keep hearing this buzz in the small markets (where i have friends working) They are not going to do it until the other stations do (Well, the other stations aren't doing it either)

It's going to cost them a ton to retool for it and they don't have the money. They're just going to wait until the technology get's cheaper.

KUSA is just going to wait too, until they have to. Why install 'bleeding' edge equipment, when it'll be way better & way cheaper 2-3 years from now (Or should i say 5-6 years from now!)

The hundred or so of us don't make one bit of a difference to them!

Originally posted by DennisMileHi

It is interesting to me that my email complaining to KRMA about this caused PBS to look into the problem. Says something about the numbers of people who really watch HD on PBS -- clearly not a big number. Too bad.



And what about Fox, are they ever going to fix their digital "issue". I guess nobody watches that either myself included. But once I saw a blurb about perhaps Fox doing a digital game of the week as it were, this fall with the NFL it might be time to investigate the issue. I did find last night when tuning to the channel on my Dish 6000 only to see that it was still jacked up, that if I use the "Stretch" feature on the 6000, even in HD mode (or in this case 480p mode so to speak I suppose since it's not 1080i, but not 480i either) that it compensates for the geometry issue just about right. That is to say it looks about the way it did when they had it working. Only seeing the FO in the lower right corner during Network programming and the people not all looking like the thin man.

I was surprised as I was flipping through the August 2002 issue of Electronic House (http://www.electronichouse.com) and came across an article titled "Want HDTV? Don't Move to Denver"!

It's just a small 1/4 page article on the problems with getting HD antenna's build on Lookout. The most interesting part is this quote "...but according to the public information director for the county, the 'appropriateness' of the location remains in question". It also mentions how as time goes on the cost is rising and Denver continues to fall behind other progressive cities.

Not sure how much this coverage will help/hurt, but at least it is national coverage!

Steve

This sort of publicity is likely to increase before things get better around here. In the best case we're not going to have high power H/DTV from the big three networks till '05. I suspect that will be long after most markets get up and running. The real rub in all of this is we're supposed to be a progressive, technology oriented, city with above average educations and incomes. Seems like that sort of populace is better suited to high tech H/DTV then most rural areas which will likely have access to H/DTV before we do.

On the plus side maybe the rest of the country will view Denver with the "cow town" image of our past and decide to not move here. Given our water resources and sad state of affairs with transportation that's probably a good thing.

Maybe you guys should move to Albuquerque, NM!!

We have now 5 digital station on the air!:D

Stations listed here......

KRQE-DT "CBS" channel 16 now broadcasting in HDTV at mountain time primetime!
"75 KW ERP" STA, now at 55 KW.

KOAT-DT "ABC" channel 21 now broadcasting in HDTV but at 1 hour early.
"280 KW ERP" STA, now at 140 KW.

KOB-DT "NBC" channel 26 right now they are broadcasting 480i 4:3 may upgrade to HDTV in the fall.
"290 KW ERP" STA, 10 KW.

KASA-DT "FOX" channel 27 now upconverting 480i to 1080 14:9
"390 KW ERP" Might be running at full power?

KNME-DT "PBS" channel 35 Now broadcasting fulltime HDTV demos and some new PBS HDTV programings.
"250 KW ERP" STA, 3 KW

All the digital TV transmitters are from the Sandia Crest mountain 10'600 Feet.

Not bad for top 48th TV market in the country....:)

KWBQ-DT "WB" channel 29 and KASY-DT "UPN" channel 45 will on the air anyday now. ;)

BTW, I love your city and I have a great time up there though.

8-1-02

Originally posted by Geof

On the plus side maybe the rest of the country will view Denver with the "cow town" image of our past and decide to not move here. Given our water resources and sad state of affairs with transportation that's probably a good thing.

Speaking of moving here, that makes me wonder how many of the (S)CARE folks are natives of this state and how many have moved here, especially moving here 'after' the original TV towers were located on Lookout. It would be interesting to find out if most of them moved here in the last 10 years or so and are now trying to screw the rest of us out of OTA TV in order to make a bundle on their real estate. I wonder if (S)CARE would care to publish any of those facts along with the "anticipated RF energy' from the towers. Just thinking out loud here.

As for the bad PR, you can bet it will not only get worse, but it will likely make at least one or two national news programs in the next couple of years as Denver waits for the situation to be resolved. (Hmm, I wonder if KUSA would air a NBC news feature describing how they have not even made an effort to get on the air in any fashion other than the one they know will be rejected???)

Thanks for the info N5XZS. It should shame some of our stations.

Hmm, I wonder if KUSA would air a NBC news feature describing how they have not even made an effort to get on the air in any fashion other than the one they know will be rejected???Would be interesting to see if some sort of 'technical problem' occurred during that piece...but then again I don't watch them - are they still on the air?

Originally posted by Geof
This sort of publicity is likely to increase before things get better around here. In the best case we're not going to have high power H/DTV from the big three networks till '05. I suspect that will be long after most markets get up and running. The real rub in all of this is we're supposed to be a progressive, technology oriented, city with above average educations and incomes. Seems like that sort of populace is better suited to high tech H/DTV then most rural areas which will likely have access to H/DTV before we do.

On the plus side maybe the rest of the country will view Denver with the "cow town" image of our past and decide to not move here. Given our water resources and sad state of affairs with transportation that's probably a good thing.

Completely agreed. One of the things that Denver and the front range has that a lot of other cities and state do not is one of the largest concentrations of 'tree hugger/environmentalist' attitudes in the country. For instance, isn't Boulder supposed to be like the "healthiest" city in the nation?

The whole tower issue would be a non-issue in many other cities and states with more carefree attitudes toward the environment. Ever been to Wisconsin? More people drinking, smoking, and swearing there than I've ever seen in my life! :)

- Dustin

....More people drinking, smoking, and swearing there than I've ever seen in my life! Damnit, what's wrong with smoking, drinking, and swearing? :)

Originally posted by smithdzd
Ever been to Wisconsin? More people drinking, smoking, and swearing there than I've ever seen in my life! :)
- Dustin

Nothin' but good times in Wisconsin! :p

And they have a city of under 100,000 people (Green Bay) that is broadcasting full blown HD (for sure CBS and ABC - I don't think their NBC has anything going right now, but it's ready). Sounds to me like they are having all the fun! ;)

You got that right Dustin! Now I see where the CBS station in Milwaukee just worked out a deal to show some of HDNets feed OTA when theres no CBS HD airing. And not only that....

Oooops, awwww sh*t... I left my cigarettes at the bar this afternoon, I'll be back later to finish my thought.

Originally posted by smithdzd


Completely agreed. One of the things that Denver and the front range has that a lot of other cities and state do not is one of the largest concentrations of 'tree hugger/environmentalist' attitudes in the country. For instance, isn't Boulder supposed to be like the "healthiest" city in the nation?

The whole tower issue would be a non-issue in many other cities and states with more carefree attitudes toward the environment. Ever been to Wisconsin? More people drinking, smoking, and swearing there than I've ever seen in my life! :)

- Dustin

Why is everyone always picking on Boulder? Is it just because you won't find any towers in 'our back yard' (NIBBY = Not in Boulder's Back Yard). We even have an RF quiet zone in town just to be safe! Sure we have our share of tree huggers, but trees are actually nice things (unless they are on fire). And where else can you find colonies of 'prairie dogs' with police protection?

And as for Boulder being a 'healthy city', we certainly do our share of exercise, but 'dam*it' as soon as the workout is over we are out drinking with the best of them. Of course its wine, scotch and other 'classy stuff', not a common beer (unless its a home brew). As for the smoking we normally just don't admit to it in public since Boulder's 'cigarettes' are not sold in stores but are generally home grown and rolled.
:D

You think Boulder is great? Do you realize how hard it is to pick up a date in a bar in Boulder? You see someone sexy and ask her for a 'good time' and she most likely will say, "I ran my last marathon in under 3 hours." Then what are you supposed to say?? So dam*it quit picking on Boulder. It's a tough life here. Hey tarbender, givesh me another glass of that Merlot.
:p

Do you realize how hard it is to pick up a date in a bar in Boulder? You see someone sexy and ask her for a 'good time' and she most likely will say, "I ran my last marathon in under 3 hours." Then what are you supposed to say??How about:
If you're confident: Give me three hours and we can do a marathon together.
If you're not confident: I can do a marathon under three hours --- but it doesn't involve running ;)

Then again I don't suppose you'll score (points) with those lines. :)

The program Spirit of Colorado "Animals" will be fed in HD on Saturday, 8/3 at 19:30 (MT).

It will be broadcast on KRMA DT-18.

This will be coming from a tape.

;)
-John