This thread is continuned from...
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/013294.html

Thanks!

------------------
David Bott
It's A World Of Entertainment...Experience It!
AV Science/AVS Forum Admin
http://www.avscience.com
http://www.avsforum.com
The Nate Home Theater (http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000001.html)

Well we have now gone to Part 3.

I called KOAA in Pueblo to see if they will also broadcast their digital NBC signal from Colorado Springs. They told me they would and it might be receivable in southern Denver.

It may be possible to get Jay Leno in HDTV from KOAA before our great KUSA even thinks digital.

I wish congress would change the law to let all network HDTV be delivered by satellite bypassing these local stations who are not pushing for full power HDTV.

------------------
Hot

Maybe I should have bought the 100 inch antenna after all.

Jeff

Anyone know of any good Antennae installers,.. I'd like to add one in my attic. I'm tired of mountain my $19 UHF antennae on a flower hanger, out front, every Tuesday night for NYPD blue.

"I wish congress would change the law to let all network HDTV be delivered by satellite bypassing these local stations who are not pushing for full power HDTV."

I total agree.

To head off the question ahead of time:

"What is the status of HDTV in Denver"

It is the same Today as it has been for months and months and months. Update: More stations in low power, progress on KWGN and KRMA full power.
Update: LCG has planning approval - KWGN-DT in High Power (11/2003).
Update: KMGH moves to Republic Plaza (1/2006)

FOX : KDVR : TV31 : DTV32 On air at Lookout Mountain with a full scale antenna. Can run full power (but think they run about 1/3 to 1/2 power). Fall 2004 and they are now using the Fox 720p feed.

PBS : KRMA : TV6 : DTV18 : Broadcasts a low power signal from the top of Republic Plaza in downtown Denver. They run the national feed in the evenings and local loop during the afternoon. They now have approval from JeffCo to build a full power antenna on Mt. Morrison. Expect 12-18 months from final approval in 4/2003 until OTA? Currently they plan on moving the 1KW antenna to Mt Morrison and run that for awhile before going full power. (See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2037268#post2037268 for plans). This will increase ERP, but still low power. Also they plan to meet the 50% simulcasting FCC requirement, mostly during the day.

ABC : KMGH : TV7 : DTV17 Broadcasts a low power signal from the top of Republic Plaza. Part of LCG antenna group. Moved to RP Jan 2006.

CBS : KCNC : TV4 : DTV35 : On air 12/31/2001. Broadcasts a low power signal from the the top of Republic Plaza. Part of LCG antenna group.

NBC : KUSA : TV9 : DTV16: On air 12/2002. Broadcasts a low power signal from the the top of Republic Plaza. Part of LCG antenna group.

PBS : KBDI : TV12 : DTV38 : Testing. Awaiting equipment. Located on Squaw Mtn.

KWGN : TV 2 : DT34 :ON THE AIR - 11/18/2003. First high power (450KW ERP) true HDTV (Fox was 480p) in Denver! Eventual plans for 1MW.

KDEN: TV25 : DTV29 : Low power non HDTV broacast from Longmont.

KWHD: TV 53 : DTV46 : On air 4/6/2003.

KTVD : TV20 : DTV19: On Air Jan 2006. Broadcasts a low power signal from the the top of Republic Plaza. Part of LCG antenna group.

Others stations (PAX,etc):If they want to broadcast from Lookout Mtn it does not look like it will happen soon. Colo Springs and Cheyenne should be on the air in 2003 for far north and far south viewers. Some stations On air as of late 2003 - others in progress.

Approval for the LCG tower was given in Mid 2003. Sent to Judge Jackson. Sent back to County Commisioners. Sent back to Judge Jackson. Sent back to County Commisioners. Sent back to Judge Jackson (hearing planned in 4/2006?)

CBS-HD West or East feed is available via Dish Network and others via Canadian systems StarChoice and ExpressVu. Fox also available. DirecTV carries some HDTV, must have waiver.

Look to for a more complete status here: http://www.santellaproductions.com/dtv/onairstatus.htm .

What can I do? This post has some tips: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6963329&&#post6963329 .

1/8/2002-Updated to show KCNC low power now on the air.
2/25/2003 - Update to show KUSA low power on air and added KBDI, KWGN, KDEN lines.
11/18/2003 - PROGRESS. KWGN-DT on air.
9/2004 - Update Fox
1/20/2006GH to RP. UPN on RP.

Good summary Adent,

And I'll propose that the active issue before us on the table is...

**************

[Wabisabi]
It looks like the first hearing for the Eldorado tower proposal is going to be held on September 5th, at 6:00 in the Jeffco building.
Should the AVS forum attend these hearings to ensure that the voice of the consumer is heard?
Should we (as a group) take a position in support or in opposition to this case? (or should we be neutral?)

-Wabisabi

[JohnJr]
Wabisabi,
I think it would be great if we could get out a large number of AVS members and my personal opinion is that we should definately support the El Dorado application. I believe that they can cover the majority of the Denver area, protect the Boulder RF quiet zone, and ramp up quickly to support HD Antenna's. Count me in!

-John

[mbuchana]
I had been wondering what was happening with the Pinnacle Towers Eldorado application.
I'm not opposed to the application, but I don't feel all that passionate about supporting it because there seems to be little support for it from the area broadcasters.

On the other hand, Pinnacle would probably not actually build the towers without some type of belief that they would get tenants for it. County approval may just be step 1.

If I were attending the meeting (which I won't be able to), it would primarily be to let JeffCo know that I want to see the impasse on DTV towers ended, and to show that demand for DTV does exist.

In any case, I would be interested in what takes place at this hearing.

Mark

***************

I had originally thought in my no-brainer way, that everybody would hop on and do everything they could to help push the El Dorado High-Power application, but in circumspect realize that there are probably members that would prefer no high-power HDTV to 400' Towers on Pinnacle.

I'd like to see more discussion about Wabisabi's questions above, and hopefully we as a group can come to some conclusions on how to procede.

-John

The front page headline article in Sunday's Boulder Daily Camera is on HD and the Eldorado Tower Application.
http://www.bouldernews.com/

For reference after Sunday use: http://www.bouldernews.com/news/county/02atower.html

It is posted without comment so as not to offend those who do not like my opinions posted here.

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jm in Boulder

[This message has been edited by JMartinko (edited 09-02-2001).]

Thanks for the links! It seems as though the Camera is much more willing to educated people on HD related issues than any other paper in the state. If only we could get the Post/News to slap some stories on the front page, we might be able to spread the word...

Originally posted by JMartinko:

It is posted without comment so as not to offend those who do not like my opinions posted here.


It's been mentioned before, but those who do not like your opinions are just a vocal MINORITY. I would welcome a return to your opinions on these topics.

-Mike

JMartinko,


Thanks for the links. I just wonder about their facts, when they say things like this:
The rabbit ears and wiry antennas won't work anymore.

Today, televisions capable of receiving digital television airwaves cost at least $2,000,
but the prices are expected to drop. Soon, everyone without cable or a satellite will
need this kind of TV.

I mean, these are not accurate. First, my wirey 'old technology' antenna still works great receiving HDTV,
and everybody will not have to buy a $2K set right off, but just a OTA HD receiver.

------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)


[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 09-03-2001).]

September, the countdown to KCNC-DT low power transmission from Republic Plaza. Will they be on the air this month with CBS HDTV? We shall see!

------------------
Hot

I just wanted to take a minute and thank everyone that helped me get OTA HD at my place (Orchard Rd. & Buckley Rd). I ended up with the Channel Master antenna (model 3023 I think) and when I first put it up in the garage, still no signal from channel 18. I took a long piece of cable and started moving it around and found that up on the landing on the second floor of the house I could get a usable signal. So I figured that I just needed to get it higher. I didn't think the 15 feet or so from the garage to the landing would make much difference, but it made a huge difference. Of course the wife wouldn't let me leave an 84" antenna on the landing. I told her the highest place in the house was the ceiling fan in our bedroom and that I could let the fan double as a rotor, she didn't go for that either. So I spent all day yesterday (nice way to spend Labor Day) up in the attic and running cable. I now have a signal strength of around 94 on channel 18.

Once again just wanted to thank everyone for there help.

Come on KCNC get with the program, I am ready for some football in HD.

Thanks
Joe

Info.....
Thank you for your interest in KMGH-DT. Our Digital transmitter is located
atop our building at Speer and Lincoln and operates at low power. Line of
sight to the top of our building is necessary to be able to receive a
signal. KMGH and other broadcasters are presently working with Jefferson
County to resolve issues regarding the broadcast of High Definition signals
from the Lookout Mountain transmitter site.

Sorry for the delay, I have been out of the office for the last couple of
weeks.


Thanks
Rick Craddock
Director of Engineering
KMGH

joej, that's good news, good job. I live in the same neiborhood and I haven't bought the STB becuase I didn't think I would get any OTA channels, but now, after I read your post, I will look into it. what STB do you have? and where did you buy the antenna? I am in the piney creek area, how about you?

joej,

Great! I will look into Radio Shack's, I also live in (The Vista), I am closer to you than what I thought, maybe we could get together to chat, I never seen HDTV on my 56H80 and can't wait to get on the bandwagon...

Thanks.

piquin

I sent you an e-mail about getting together.

Later
Joe

piquin

yes I am in Piney Creek (the Vista) as well. I have the Sony HD-100 that I got from Soundtrack (and yes the fan is damn loud, not sure I would go that route again). I got the antenna via mail order from Stark Electronic's. There was a link to them in the previous thread on this topic. However, I think that you could go with the Radio Shack 100"er and be o.k. as well. If nothing else you could get it and see if you get a signal, nice thing about Radio Shack is you can always take it back if you have to.

I watched PBS this weekend, not sure if it was the national feed or what but they a special on Azaleas', believe me when I tell you I am not an Azalea type guy but I was mesmerized by the picture. It was pretty cool.

If I can do anything to help, let me know.

Later
Joe

In case you all have missed it elsewhere, we HD-starved Denverites will have one more HD channel available to us as of Thursday, September 6th:
http://www.hd.net/news.html

Since they have offices in Colorado, and have already scheduled some Rockies games, I would assume that some of the Avalanche games will be among the 65 NHL games they are promising.

This is exciting! I wrote a note to the Denver Post with this info in case they might be interested in running a story. Hopefully, all of this will generate a little more interest in HD. When they get going with the 18 hours of HD content (4 Oct), we all need to make sure our local Soundtracks, Best Buys, etc., have them tuned in on their demo sets.

I actually find this much more attractive than getting network stuff since the networks have lost me with their crappy shows in the last few years - or I have graduated from their target audience.

------------------
Mike Saemisch

Visit our home theater here (http://homepage.mac.com/saemisch/HomeTheater/HT.html) .

Is anybody having problems getting FOX to come in lately. I usually get it at about 85% here in Highlands Ranch and in just the last couple days I am getting no signal.

Yes, I've noticed the same thing about Fox lately. The last two days I have had no signal either. I don't watch Fox much because to the stupid way the crop the picture.

Does anyone have a time frame for CBS? I thought it was supposed to be the first of September.

Tonight is the first broadcast of HDNet. I will be watching!
Baseball in HiDef.... very cool.

In todays Daily Camera
http://www.bouldernews.com/news/county/06atowr.html

posted as requested, without personal comment.

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jm in Boulder

I talked to KCNC yesterday. Latest on-air estimate is mid September to early October.

Nick

Mid September, early October.... Hmm I hope I get to see some College football this year. Maybe it will be up by Christmas.

Also there was an article in the Denver Post today in the sports page on 7D titled "High definition TV is here".

A couple of quotes that I thought were interesting:

"The first national all high-definition TV network will launch from Denver at 6 o'clock tonight with an all-sports focus."

"All production and broadcast facilities are based at Colorado Studios in Denver"

"While local stations (notably KMGH Channel 7) and national broadcasters have experimented with high-definition telecasts, HDNet will be the first service committed to all high-definition programming"

"HDNet is available on Channel 199 to DirecTV subscribers at no additional monthly cost"

Seems a shame to me no mention of KRMA especially since they seem to be the leaders here in Denver.

The article (I couldn't find it on the web page or I would have posted a link), sure gives some good plugs and might really start people here thinking about HDTV. Especially now that the Rockies and the Av's are going to be in Hi-Def.

Nice article.

Also the deal at El Dorado made the KOA news this morning, said that Senator Mark Udal (I think he was a senator or rep.) was dead set against it.

At least HDTV is finally getting some press around here.

Here is a lint to a Rocky Mountain News article on the Pinnacle Tower proposal.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_818010,00.html

They seem serious about wanting these towers. However, no local stations want to go to Eldorado.

------------------
Hot

[This message has been edited by Hot (edited 09-06-2001).]

I hope this was a VERY cushioned estimate. Here is a letter from the manager of engineering at KCNC. Dated Sept 5th.

"Thank you for inquiring about KCNC's progress in building our HDTV broadcast
plant. Please accept this form letter as my response - we have been getting
a significant level of e-mail and have been unable to respond to each one
individually. We will start the HDTV low power transmitter installation on
Republic Plaza (downtown Denver) next week. If you can receive the KRMA-DT,
PBS, channel 18 HDTV signal from the Republic Plaza, you will have no
trouble receiving our channel 35 HDTV signal.

There have been some delays in equipment purchases and installations for the
studio portion of the HDTV station. It now looks like mid-October will be a
more realistic date for the completion and on-air date for channel 35.

Thanks - David Layne"

Yes, I am unable to get ch. 32 anymore. I have been checking the past two days.....
I e-mailed them at their FOX31 web page. Who knows......

Does anybody know how high the Sprint Broadband tower is? Is that lookout mountain?

It seems astetics and RFI are two of the big issues of those that oppose the towers. What if they made the towers blend in like they've done with a few of the new cell phone towers? I saw a news clip on one of them a few weeks back.

Maybe the locals would wear tin foil hats? If they put them in the shape of a pyramid it could enhance their chockra (sp?).

------------------
After 6 years I am getting ready to upgrade my HT. Research now, purchase in the summer... er, uh, September... grrr...lagging upgrades...
- Rear Channels in...
...now waiting for DPL II

Watched the Rangers game (well most of it) on ch. 199 ;ast night.....Totally cool! Any one else?

I tried again today and FOX KDVR-DT 32 does not have a signal.

I also checked channel 35 to see if KCNC was testing. Nothing yet.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Wouldn't it be nice if 32 was to lease their tower space and DTV antenna to a network that has HD material? Maybe it's a test to see if anyone would notice their absense. I only noticed on checking for 35 that 32 was down, since I can't stand the cropping. I get about as sharp a picture (besides being the complete picture) on DirecTV. Why they won't even pass thru Fox's 480p is a mystery to me. Maybe with leasing it to KMGH they can get some return on their expenditure! (Wishful thinking, I know...).

------------------
Mark Gibson

Mgibsoj,

From what i understand, KDVR doesn't have the equipment needed to switch the sources to feed the DTV32 X-mitter. They need to be able to switch from the Fox Networkfeed in 480p to 480i for local commercial insertion.

I don't understand their logic at all. I mean, they've been spending mega-bucks on powering the X-mitter in near full-power that very few are watching. Yet they won't spend the miniscule amount for a switcher/router?

'Dilbert' logic i guess?

------------------
Ernie'sHomeTheatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)

Originally posted by santellavision:
Mgibsoj,

I don't understand their logic at all. I mean, they've been spending mega-bucks on powering the X-mitter in near full-power that very few are watching. Yet they won't spend the miniscule amount for a switcher/router?

'Dilbert' logic i guess?




Very well put, I don't understand this logic either. Isn't this the pinch penny's and waste dollars theory.

I just mounted my 19$ UHF only antennae in my attic today. I'm getting a 46% reception from Broadway and Highlands Ranch Blvd. Funny thing is my DTC-100 never breaks up. Can't wait to see some of the HDTV from ABC this fall.
David Layne (the manager of engineering for KCNC) should be back in the office on Sept 10th. I'd encourage everyone to give him a call and express that "We want our HDTV". When I call I don't get a sense of urgency from KCNC's engineering department.

I find it perplexing after a week now that KDVR's signal has been off. Hmmm, it started on the first week of the month, they really were just cropping the 4:3 to (14:9?) and converting to 480p, and it seems like few were watching. I know I'm ignorant about broadcast equipment costs and capabilities, but it sure seems easy for the latest crop of TV's and STB's to do all kinds of conversion, so I can't imagine it would be all that expensive to convert 480i to 480p for broadcsting commercials. I hope they haven't pulled the plug for a while, this week seems just a little bit to long.

[This message has been edited by BrianRL (edited 09-10-2001).]

I called KDVR today about the digital channel being off the air and left a message for Engineering. I doubt if they will call back.

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Mike aka Hot

And lets hope KMGH gets on board with 5.1 sound this season now that theres so much more HD content being added on ABC.

------------------
Dan

Just got off the phone with engineering. They will be back on the air tomorrow if possible. Transmitter crashed. He also said they hope to get equipment to be able to pass the 16:9 signal from FOX in Jan.
FOX KDVR
(303) 595-3131 (main)
Call them and let them know people are watching.
Hope my posting hasn't offended certain parties, I have tried not to express an opinion here, but I wanted the group to know.

------------------
jm in Boulder

ok, I called them. The guy said that "we have been getting a lot of calls about this" I could not have been more pleased with that response. Now only if KMGH would move their xmitter to Republic Plaza.......I still can't get ch. 17 .

Could one of you please post a short (one or two paragraph) recap of what has been going on? Sounds like you guys must be going through hell to get tower(s) to transmit HDTV from.

It's simple enough actually Dave. The people that live around where the existing NTSC towers are have pressured the county commissioners into not letting any new digital tower go up in the area. Of course many feel though that that is the only logical choice for a tower in this region..which is why it was chosen decades ago to begin with. The stations in general dont seem interested in any other area to broadcast from. Maybe thats valid, maybe it's not. But some of us cant help but think that if the digital conversion stood to earn millions of dollars by the broadcasters as opposed to cost them millions of dollars, that maybe this would have been sorted out by now.

------------------
Dan

Greetings to all in Denver HDTV community. After almost year of reading AVS forum, today I finally registered myself. My HD box RCA DTC-100 showed today CH 35-1 Digital (CBS) with weak signal. PBS (Digital CH 18) was earlier today on 6-1 (Colorado loop) and 6-2, anybody with same experience? ABC (Digital CH 17) is in my area lately with worse reception then before, but I can still get it. To members who did not have chance to see Mark Cuban's HDnet (DirecTV - CH 199) go to Soundtrack (Ultimate Electronics) on S Colorado Blvd in Denver or Circuit City on W Colfax Ave, Lakewood. Does anybody know hockey (GO AVALANCHE!) schedule for HDnet? I called FOX (Digital CH 32), part arrived today and crane should be in tomorrow, 16x9 by end of this year. By the way I don't like FOX programs. I'm for HD tower(s) on Lookout Mountain - other towers are there for "centuries"…

Thanks for the info. Are the planned HDTV towers a good distance (1/4 mile, 1/2 mile etc) from the existing NTSC towers or are they right next to them?

The one new HDTV tower I know of here in St. Louis (behind Lindberg High School) is right next to the old tower. You can't really tell a difference.

KDVR Engineering never called me back. I am glad to see that they hope to pass on the FOX 16:9 programs in Jan 2002.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Hello jk, I checked last night, still nothing on Channel 35 here and no Channel 32 either. I get channel 18 very well so I assume that when 35 comes on line I should be able to get it.

I did catch the HDNet, very nice. This could replace ESPN in my household.

Later
Joe

[This message has been edited by joej (edited 09-12-2001).]

My channel 18 is over 90% signal. Great for a low power station.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Hot, I also get Channel 18 up in the 90's. But I can not recieve channel 17 at all. Are you able to get this channel? Is it that much lower in power or is it the location of this channel?

Thanks
Joe

Originally posted by joej:
Hot, I also get Channel 18 up in the 90's. But I can not recieve channel 17 at all. Are you able to get this channel? Is it that much lower in power or is it the location of this channel?

Thanks
Joe

Joe

I get channel 17 with a signal strength of about 68%. I live within three miles of their building on Speer and Logan. I think it has a lower power than channel 18 and the antenna is much lower than channel 18.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Bummer, your only 3 miles away and still only get a signal in the 60's. I guess those of us in the burbs have very little chance of picking this signal up. I guess the best I can hope for now is to get CBS if/when it comes online.

Any further info regarding channel 31/32?
Jeff

This digital reception thing makes me laugh. I mean it's 2001 and here we are with 1940's technology TV antennas, talking about how we have to stick our rabbit ears out on the deck attached to a flowerbox to get reception. Gotta' love Technology!

With multi-path and digital, it's just hit or miss on getting a lockable signal at many locations.
I live up in Genesee and can get DTV18 with about a 70 and zippo on 17.
I did get one of those big honkin' (80") Channel Master antenna's, well worth the $50.
because, i couldn't get 18 with the cheaper RS unit.

------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)

[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 09-13-2001).]

Originally posted by Greg T:
Depending on your location and height in the Denver metro, I wouldn't count out getting KMGH until you tried it.

I want to stress the "location" part of your message. If you've visited the KMGH studio you'll see a taller building (Blue Cross) just a couple of blocks away. This will surely block any reception to the northwest (my direction). And any reception to the north will be hit or miss because of the very large buildings downtown.

Anyone know if there is room for one more transmitter on top of the Republic Plaza Building?

Michael

Depending on your location and height in the Denver metro, I wouldn't count out getting KMGH until you tried it. I get about 46% on my DTC-100 with a attic mounted $19 Radio Shack UHF only antennae. I live near Highlands Ranch Blvd and Broadway. So, no way am I close to downtown. With my DTC-100 I've noticed that If I can at least get 40% signal, the signal won't break up. I tried a Sony HD-100 unit, and it wouldn't lock KMGH with this same antennae. So, I guess the sensitivity of your receiver maters just as much as your antennae. If you can mount the antennae outside, I'm sure you'll have a much better chance at getting the signal.
Good luck.

Guys,

I live west of Kipling in Lakewood/Golden area and I receive the KMGH signal also in the 65- 75 range and I have never had a breakup of the signal. I do use the DTC 100 and have my antenna mounted outside on the roof. I point to channel 18's locatin which is slightly north of the KMGH antenna and still bring it in fine.

Just more info.
Jeff

I agree, pretty funny all the hoops that everyone is jumping through. Is there anyone in the Aurora (East) area that is picking up channel 17?

Thanks
Joe

KDVR-DT FOX 32 is back on the air.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

I turned in my AT&T broadband digital cable box yesterday after getting my dish installed earlier this week. When I turned the box in, I was asked if there was any particular reason why. I replied that, "According to AT&T customer service, nobody is interested in HDTV, so they are not pursuing any HDTV broadcasting for the foreseeable future." I added that "Time Warner Cable has it in New York, I saw it last week when visiting a friend there." They gave me a questionnaire to fill out voluntarily to research why I was canceling. I explained the lack of HDTV plans and signed it as "Nobody".

[This message has been edited by BrianRL (edited 09-15-2001).]

I just bought an HDTV yesterday. And I am new to HDTV. What all do I need to pick up HDTV here in Denver?

Due to the huge problems we have here in Denver, I would recommend you go back and read the entire Denver HDTV Hardware thread. (Don't be discouraged, just have patience and do your research)
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/010218.html

It has all the info you will need in detail from the local OTA problems, Equipment needed, HD on Satellite, The 'Canadian' HD satellite option etc. It would take way too long to update you on everything that's required because there is no 'easy' way to get all that HD offers here in Denver.

Good Luck, It'll be well worth it!

------------------
Ernie'sHomeTheatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)


[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 09-14-2001).]

Policy,

At the minimum you need an ATSC Tuner (Possibly built into your HDTV) and an Antenna. This would allow you to pull in what local stations that are broadcasting in ATSC formats as ADent described in his message in this current thread (like 3rd/4th message on page 1).

Then you should decide what non-local content if/any you want. HBO-HD, Showtime-HD, CBS_National-HD, HDNET Sports, etc are available nationally but not via local antennas.

I use a Dish 6000 receiver with the OTA (Over the Air) module which allows me to receive all the local ATSC content (it functions as my tuner) and I can receive all the Dish content which includes HBO-HD, Showtime-HD and CBS_National-HD.

Good luck and congratulations on your purchase!

-John

PS. there is more content out there and available, but the means to get there was just to complex and/or expensive for me to justify it.

I don't figure that I'll be able to get KMGH-HD up in Greeley, but my Mits. HD receiver shows it. And when I try to tune it in, I get the PAX station, even though I'm on 17-1 and it says KMGHDT 17-1 on the title bar.

Anyone else experience this?

-Mike

PS. Whoever was checking on Cheyenne channel 5 HD - any new news???

I live in "The Breakers" off of Mississippi and Valentia and cannot get ABC. It's a shame, because that is what I really want.

PBS and FOX are around 90%

Brian

Is recieving Canadian HDTV illegal in the US? I imagine that they have a lot more content than the US counterpart since they aren't under the jurisdiction of the FCC? It doesnt seem worth it to buy a decoder just for 4 channels especially when that doesn't include NFL.

Originally posted by policy:
Is receiving Canadian HDTV illegal in the US? I imagine that they have a lot more content than the US counterpart since they aren't under the jurisdiction of the FCC? It doesn't seem worth it to buy a decoder just for 4 channels especially when that doesn't include NFL.

When I bought my Bell ExpressVu 6000 last December it was the only way I could get CBS HDTV. I pay my fees to Freeway Support an address Broker in Canada. It is not illegal to receive Canadian DBS in the USA as far as I know. It is illegal in Canada for Bell ExpressVu to knowingly sell DBS service to US residents. However, my account is set up at a Canadian address. My bill goes to Freeway, they pay Bell in Canadian dollars and bill me in US dollars. I pay an annual fee for this service.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Hope I don't get flamed for the dumb questions, but....
For someone who lives in Fort Collins, what broadcasts are going to powerful enough to penetrate into my area? And is AT&T cable ever going to offer HDTV programming over the cable lines? I remember seeing shows on CBS that say "Simulcast in HDTV" but I don't know if this applied to cable users or only ota users. I apologize in advance for my ignorance.

Joe- I am about the same area as you, and no signal on ch. 17, I get a big, fat zero on the meter. I even went on my roof to adjust the UHF antenna, to no avail.

I checked 32 last night (again), it was screaming at 100....cool! 18 is very strong also. Not bad considering I only spent 20 bucks for the antenna at Radio shack....

I am teased by KMGH-DT, as it appears on my APG...boo hoo.

Originally posted by LordFortius:
Hope I don't get flamed for the dumb questions, but....
For someone who lives in Fort Collins, what broadcasts are going to powerful enough to penetrate into my area? And is AT&T cable ever going to offer HDTV programming over the cable lines? I remember seeing shows on CBS that say "Simulcast in HDTV" but I don't know if this applied to cable users or only ota users. I apologize in advance for my ignorance.

When I went to DISH Network for HDTV, I kept AT&T cable at the basic level for the Denver City Channel which has City Council Meetings. I asked AT&T about digital HDTV. They tried to tell me AT&T digital cable is the same as HDTV, of course it is NTSC digitized and compressed.

Their are two ways I expect to see HDTV on AT&T. First is when all NTSC goes off the air and everything is digital. Even then they may only do SDTV. Second if AOL-TimeWarner buys AT&T Broadband. AOL-TW broadcasts HDTV on their system in New York.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Originally posted by LordFortius:
Hope I don't get flamed for the dumb questions, but....
For someone who lives in Fort Collins, what broadcasts are going to powerful enough to penetrate into my area? And is AT&T cable ever going to offer HDTV programming over the cable lines? I remember seeing shows on CBS that say "Simulcast in HDTV" but I don't know if this applied to cable users or only ota users. I apologize in advance for my ignorance.

The only OTA programming you are likely to be able to pick up in Ft. Collins is KDVR (Fox), which has no HDTV programming. For CBS, Cheyenne should be up by next spring (possibly sooner) and hopefully we can get that.

Until then, your choices are Dish (CBS, HBO, Showtime), or DirecTV (HBO, HDNet sports), or Canadian ExpressVu.

Since we are in a "Grade B" signal area for Cheyenne CBS (KGWN), it is possible that they won't grant a waiver and allow you to get CBS-HD via Dish Network. If anyone has experience with that issue, please post here!

Mark

The only thing I still don't understand is why when I watch a lot of cbs shows via cable a message is displayed on the bottom which reads Simulcast in HDTV. Why don't they remove this message for cable veiwers if it does not apply to them?

Originally posted by LordFortius:
The only thing I still don't understand is why when I watch a lot of cbs shows via cable a message is displayed on the bottom which reads Simulcast in HDTV. Why don't they remove this message for cable veiwers if it does not apply to them?

They show it so you know that if you have HDTV you can watch it in HDTV. You can get it on DISH Network if you are in a CBS O&O area. You can get it on Bell ExpressVu if you buy the equipment and pay a broker for programming. You can get it on TimeWarner Cable in some cities. I think even AT&T Broadband carries it in the Chicago area, but not in Denver. Or in some cities you can get it OTA using an antenna.

Just because your cable company does not send out a digital HDTV signal should not require CBS to remove the Simulcast in HDTV. CBS is simulcasting in HDTV. You have not purchased the equipment to receive it. I spent over $1000 to get my original Bell ExpressVu set up so I could watch CBS HDTV. Where there is a will there is a way. If you want something bad enough you will pay the price for it, as I did. Now I watch CBS HDTV on DISH. I still keep my Bell ExpressVu for other reasons.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Originally posted by Dave Beebe:
Thanks for the info. Are the planned HDTV towers a good distance (1/4 mile, 1/2 mile etc) from the existing NTSC towers or are they right next to them?


Many of the stations formed a group and planned to put many of the NTSC and HDTV signals in a single SuperTower. I think Fox (the only permanent HDTV transmitter on the air) uses its own single tower for both signals.
http://www.metronet.com/~chipk/tv/DIA.html lists the current locations of the NTSC towers and planned locations of the DTV towers. 0.15 miles is planned from the SuperTower to Fox's tower and 0.09 mi from KUSA's current tower to the planned SuperTower.

There is a lot of info on other possible locations for towers in the previous iterations of this thread (go to the first page and follow the link in the first post). If they move to ElDorado Mtn it would be about 17miles from the current site.

BTW I think the Sprint Broadband tower is on ElDorado Mtn as is KBCO.

PS I will try to keep my post on the 1st page of this thread up to date - surprise, no changes so far.

So, I broke down and ordered a bunch of HDTV equipment yesterday, from dss1.com. A DishNetworks dual dish setup, with the 8VSB tuner so I can tune in my local Denver channels.

Question for the group. Does anyone have any suggestions for a group in town that does installations? I got all the equipment (except an antenna) and I live in a new two-story home in Arvada. I'm not too concerned with all the wiring, but more with the actual getting onto the roof and doing the install, as I don't have the equipment and handiness to do this. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Kurt

Kurt,
Welcome. Unfortunately, I don't have any installers as I did mine myself and I am not handy at all. The manuals are pretty easy to follow along with. If I am able to get it done, you could do it too. Or, try the yellow pages and call up satellite dealers close to you. They might help, but they probably would have been easier to get to help if you had purchased from them directly.

Let us know how it turns out.


Jeff

Originally posted by kurtackman:
So, I broke down and ordered a bunch of HDTV equipment yesterday, from dss1.com. A DishNetworks dual dish setup, with the 8VSB tuner so I can tune in my local Denver channels.

Question for the group. Does anyone have any suggestions for a group in town that does installations? I got all the equipment (except an antenna) and I live in a new two-story home in Arvada. I'm not too concerned with all the wiring, but more with the actual getting onto the roof and doing the install, as I don't have the equipment and handiness to do this. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Kurt

You might want to contact Benzie & Shook TV. They are listed in the Denver Metro white pages in the business listings.


They do all my installations.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Kurt,

I would recommend not putting the dishes on the roof. Put them in a location that you have access to.
Either at ground level or possibly near a window that opens.
With our weather (snow) you'll need to clean them off ocasionally.

Hooking it up, locating the Sats and 'dialing them in' is very easy. If you want some help, send me an email.
I'd be glad to help.

Ernie

------------------
Ernie'sHomeTheatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)

I've convinced myself I can do the two dishes on my own (I did this back in the day with my old Directv.) But, I still need an antenna on my roof to get OTA signal for local ABC and FOX HDTV.

Mike, if you have a number for the place you mentioned, could you get that to me. All I have is a North Denver phone book and they're not listed on switchboard.com either.

From everything I've read on the forum, I do want a roof-mount antenna for local HDTV from Arvada, all agreed?

Thanks all! I'm looking forward to joining you in the HDTV world!
Kurt

Benzie & Shook Television Inc
(303) 781-9057

From the Qwest Dex website.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Since we are in a "Grade B" signal area for Cheyenne CBS (KGWN), it is possible that they won't grant a waiver and allow you to get CBS-HD via Dish Network. If anyone has experience with that issue, please post here!


A follow-up: An anonymous forum member in Loveland says he does get CBS-HD via Dish network while residing in the Grade-B signal area for Cheyenne KGWN.

Hopefully others aren't having a problem either.

Mark

Welcome new people to this forum! If you haven't already done so, email me (instructions below) to get on a group distribution list for Denver HDTV/DTV news and events.

Not that there has been any activity lately, but if there is breaking news or something we need to communicate quickly, it is a good idea to have your name on the list.

Jay

------------------
Note: If you would like to receive email notification of Denver DTV news and events, send an email with 'Subscribe' in the subject line to:
denver-dtv@home.com

Does anyone else have major audio sync problems with PBS and FOX? I have tried 3 different Sony HD-100 receivers and all have the same problem. The one in the SoundTrack near me works great. ABC and the Directv stations work fine.

I have never experienced this with PBS or Fox. I have seen it very severely so on ABC with NYPD Blue. It may be the Sony unit, but for me a call to KMGH engineering seemed to fix the problem.
Jeff

Hello Serrota, I have the Sony HD100 box and have not seen any problems with the audio. Seems to work great except for that stupid fan.

Later
Joe

I guess I will continue posting these if for no other reason than to bump up the thread occasionally.

Coming up on KRMA-DT Channel 18...

Evolution # 101 will be fed in HD on Monday, 9/24 at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT) on DT2A
(RX-IF=1379)

Evolution # 102 will be fed in HD on Tuesday, 9/25 at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT) on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379)

Evolution # 104 will be fed in HD on Wednesday, 9/26at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT) on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379)

Evolution # 106 will be fed in HD on Thursday, 9/27 at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT) on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379)

Please see that each episode is broadcast on KRMA-DT 18.

-John

I've only been in Denver a couple months. Is the ABC station an O&O station? An ABC channel on Dish seems to be in the works and if a similar deal to CBS is done, would we qualify?

Brian

Originally posted by BrianBHD:
I've only been in Denver a couple months. Is the ABC station an O&O station? An ABC channel on Dish seems to be in the works and if a similar deal to CBS is done, would we qualify?

Brian

The ABC channel in Denver is owned by McGraw Hill. It has been broadcasting a low power digital signal on KMGH-DT channel 17 since 1999. It was the first digital station on the air in Denver. However, one can only receive the signal if you are close to the transmitter at Speer and Lincoln. The transmitter is on the roof of the studio. It is hard to say if they would grant a waiver for an ABC digital signal from DISH.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

I have not received a call back from KCNC as to how they are coming with their low power digital transmitter. I left another message today.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Hot--any word from KCNC? I have been checking my STB local digital signal everyday for ch. 35. Nothing yet.

Also, any suggestions on how I can get ch. 17? E-mail from KMGH (it's in the thread) said basically what I (and everyone here in the thread) already knew. Cross your fingers about them relocating the xmitter higher to Lookout. (Haven't heard anything on that either). Have you?

Originally posted by pookers:

Also, any suggestions on how I can get ch. 17? E-mail from KMGH (it's in the thread) said basically what I (and everyone here in the thread) already knew. Cross your fingers about them relocating the xmitter higher to Lookout. (Haven't heard anything on that either). Have you?

It's very frustrating not getting ABC with all the HD they are starting to do. Hopefully something gets worked out (Dish or local).

Did KRMA discontinue HD when they installed their new equipment? All I now see is 18.1 and 18.2 (different material) in 480i. It was really nice to see Evolution #101 in HD, but #102 and #104 have been in SD.

Originally posted by JohnJr:
I guess I will continue posting these if for no other reason than to bump up the thread occasionally.

Coming up on KRMA-DT Channel 18...

Evolution # 101 will be fed in HD on Monday, 9/24 at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT) on DT2A
(RX-IF=1379)

Evolution # 102 will be fed in HD on Tuesday, 9/25 at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT) on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379)

Evolution # 104 will be fed in HD on Wednesday, 9/26at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT) on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379)

Evolution # 106 will be fed in HD on Thursday, 9/27 at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT) on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379)

Please see that each episode is broadcast on KRMA-DT 18.

-John



------------------
Mark Gibson

I am getting KRMA-DT in the evening it is the PBS HDTV feed. During the day channel 18-1 and 18-2 are sometimes mapped to 6-1 and 6-2 at night PBS is 80-3 or something like that.

I am getting KMGH-DT since I live about three miles SE of the transmitter. The signal strength is about 63%.

I have never heard back from KCNC, I left another message yesterday. Someone else posted that the were hoping for the end of this month or mid October at the latest.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

I'm seeing the same thing Mark Gibson is seeing on both my OTA tuners. The last couple nights even when KRMA is passing the National stuff through it's multicasting 2 SD channels instead of the one HD channel.

------------------
Dan

Mitsubishi 55805
Dish 6000
DirecTv/Mitsu SR-HD400
Evu 6000

Same here for me on KRMA. Last night when I checked there were four feeds re-mapped from 18 to 80-3, 80-4, 80-5, and 80-6, but all were 4:3 (didn't check scan rate). I hope the 1080i HD returns, the 4 channels are nice, but the lesser picture quality will keep me form watching.

------------------
Proud to be 2nd generation City of Denver native

In today's Boulder Daily Camera:
http://www.bouldernews.com/news/local/27atowr.html

------------------
jm in Boulder

In today's Denver Post:
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,53%257E160483,00.html

and in the Rocky Mountain News:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_833674,00.html

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Mike aka Hot

[This message has been edited by Hot (edited 09-27-2001).]

Also in the News:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_833674,00.html

From the Article:

"Denver is the largest city in the United States not to have all of its stations broadcasting high-definition TV signals. The federal government is giving broadcasters until 2006 to implement the technology or lose their rights to it."

Also, just talked to KCNC. They have the tower/transmitter installed, but do not have the receiving equipment for their studio. They said it should take another month to receive the parts.

Nick

The Denver Post also had an article regarding the Eldorado tower meeting.

Jeff

Just spoke with Donna, Program Director, at KRMA. She was very surprised to hear that Evolution was not in HD on Tuesday and Wednesday. It appears that somebody did not throw the switch. She was going to march over to Engineering and see what's going on. Hopefully, the last installment of Evolution will be in HD tonight.

I heard back from Engineering at KCNC. They are having problems getting the transmitter set up. Some parts are missing and the company doing the work pulled out temporarily to help get the NYC stations back on the air.

The optimistic date to be transmitting low power is a month and the pessimistic date is two months.

It looks like Thanksgiving might be a good target date to expect to see CBS HDTV OTA in Denver.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

I like that the newspapers are at least acknowledging that there is a debate. I'll bet that many people reading the papers today said to themselves, "HD Towers????????"


Originally posted by Hot:

It looks like Thanksgiving might be a good target date to expect to see CBS HDTV OTA in Denver.



Surprise, surprise...

-Mike

Anyone see the latest "Promo" magazine (sent out to Rocky Mountain PBS members)? The cover features "Trains of the American West", prominently listed as "A Rocky Mountain PBS HDTV Special".

Inside the magazine, there is more about it, and also more about three new HDTV episodes of "Spirit of Colorado".

It's great to see Rocky Mountain PBS producing these kinds of programs and promoting HDTV!

It probably would have been good for the magazine to include more information on how to get HDTV, but I guess that is a complicated topic. Hopefully, people won't just tune in to the Denver, Pueblo or Grand Junction analog outlet of Rocky Mountain PBS expecting to see HDTV, and then wonder what's the big deal...

Unfortunately, up here in Fort Collins I won't be seeing these programs either. It seems like we should be hearing something from JeffCo on the Mt. Morrisson proposal soon.

Mark




[This message has been edited by mbuchana (edited 09-28-2001).]

Denver is the largest city in the United States not to have all of its stations broadcasting high-definition TV signals. The federal government is giving broadcasters until 2006 to implement the technology or lose their rights to it.


So what are most other cities doing? Do they have all of their local channels brodcasted OTA? That would be very nice. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


Rebies


[This message has been edited by Rebies (edited 09-29-2001).]

Just about every broadcast market (our size) are up and running with full-power HDTV. Most have at least the Network affiliates in HD and some the smaller independents too.

We're by far the only large city that doesn't have One, not One full-power station! (KDVR-32 is near full-power SDTV and not in HDTV).

Our market was scheduled by the FCC be on on-the-air already. But the stations keep filing extensions (and being approved by the FCC) to put off the process. KRMA, KMGH (and hopefully soon KCNC) are on-the-air with low-power HD signals. This qualifies them as being 'on-the-air' by the FCC rules. (Great if you live within 10 miles and the winds right)

If the tower/transmitter permit BS keeps going (like it has) we might be stuck with 2-3 stations on low-power for a long, long time to come.

These (S)CARE folks crack me up... A bunch of aging yuppies with cell phones, beepers, big screens etc. and then they don't want any more towers. Where do they think all those signals travel to and from?
I'd like to know just how many of them use significantly more dangerous cell phones all day and then complain about having trouble sleeping because of broadcast RF radiation from towers that are miles away? Hello??

------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)


[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 09-29-2001).]

You got that right Ernie. I'm watching Forrest Gump in HD right now and it looks awesome. I'm one the the lucky few that gets KMGH in HD..it's a shame most do not.

------------------
Dan

Mitsubishi 55805
Dish 6000
DirecTv/Mitsu SR-HD400
Evu 6000

Ernie,
I will chime in with my sarcastic support of your statements. As the parents at Cherry Creek High stated so succinctly (with a cell phone glued to their head, driving around in a huge Ford Valdez, and smoking their "natural" cancer free cigarettes)--it is allllll for the chillllrrren.

Yeah right.

Between the Lookout Mountain and Eldorado sites, you would think that most people would just accept the additions to Lookout--but no... I am uncertain I support the Eldorado site unless they can address the back-drop issues. I think the back drop issue is the only issue of concern.

As far as radiation concerns... give me a break. There are regular checks by authorized people (who know what they are doing) to verify proper and in range radiation outputs. The health issues associated with this radiation are not even close to be resolved. High power transmission wires are far more significant sources of this type of radiation. For hek's sake, a TOASTER or HAIR DRYING is a significant source in our own houses. NO MORE TOASTERS OR HAIR DRYERS ALLOWED! As far as the diesel fuel being stored up there (someone was saying it could leak and hurt their ground water)... I guess they don't support gas stations either.

What the heck is the matter with putting these antennas on top of the tallest buildings in downtown Denver? Are they not high enough to cover the whole area?

I wrote emails to the corporate NBC, ABC, and CBS asking then when high power HDTV will be available in Denver. Then I wrote emails to each of the local affiliates, asking them the same thing.

I will share the responses if I get any. I know others here have written and called... I just wanted to add one more voice to that chorus.

dan

dleithaus,

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any responses. I've tried to no avail. I've even contacted the FCC with my complaints that the stations aren't on-the-air with HDTV and that they never retun emails. They said they've noted my complaint. Hey, at least they're respectful and returnemails unlike the stations!

You are correct, Hairdryers put out probably10 times as much localized electromagnetic radiation as living on lookout mountain!

The downtown Republic Plaza bldg. is not as high as Lookout (about 5700' vs. 7300') so their signals wouldn't get out as far... thus they wouldn't get as large a viewing audience. And adding to that, the inherent problem with DTV's 8-VSB transmission signal being so prone to multi-path. Most DTV receivers have huge problems receiving low level OTA signals (Unwatchable digital breakup vs. Watchable analog snow) They're scared as it is that their viewable signal reach will be reduced.

There is still another alternative that nobody brings up. Why not just built one 2000' supertower for all DTV, away from everything? They could build one tower and x-mitter building, split the land/utility/maintenance costs among all the stations and still be ahead with all the legal fees they're paying now fighting this. Most midwestern/southern cities have 2000' towers away from urban locations. It would still give them the reach and make everybody happy.

My 2.5¢

------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)


[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 09-30-2001).]

Santellavision,

The Denver radio and TV stations did build towers far away from people. They did this on Lookout Mt in the 1950's. There were very few people living there when the original RF towers went up on Lookout. Most of the (S)CARE yuppies moved into the neighborhood decades after there were broadcast towers in their new backyard. These people are full of crap. DTV poses less of a health hazard than cell phone use. It is no more or less harmful than the analog signals that have been transmitted for 50 years from Lookout.

What we're dealing with here are some selfish NIMBY's and a county commission that is too pantywaist to stand up to them. CARE is motivated by junk science and the prospect of a significant windfall in property values if the towers relocate somewhere else. The Eldorado site jeopardizes the radio quiet zone in Boulder. It would be a shame to destroy this valuable research site just to appease some soccer moms engaging in FUD. Besides, we've known for years that Lookout is the best place to efficiently cover Denver and the Front Range. JeffCo just needs to get some {guts} and ask (S)CARE, "If you're so scared about EM radiation, why haven't you moved yet?

Jim

------------------
Let me get this straight, this show is hi-def and 5.1, but my local affiliate makes it crappy NTSC and mono?!

[This message has been edited by JimboG (edited 09-30-2001).]

Originally posted by santellavision:
dleithaus,

There is still another alternative that nobody brings up. Why not just built one 2000' supertower for all DTV, away from everything? They could build one tower and x-mitter building, split the land/utility/maintenance costs among all the stations and still be ahead with all the legal fees they're paying now fighting this. Most midwestern/southern cities have 2000' towers away from urban locations. It would still give them the reach and make everybody happy.

My 2.5¢



The Lake Cedar Group presented a proposal to Jefferson County many years ago for a consolidated HDTV Tower on Lookout Mountain. Jefferson County turned it down and the original thread started over that. I searched for the original thread, but could only find Part II. At the beginning of Part II I clicked on the link to the original thread, but it is no longer on the server. I do know that Lake Cedar Group is getting ready to submit another plan to Jefferson County that is supposed to correct the earlier problems. I do not know when this plan will be submitted.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Mitsubishi WS-55805
Dish 6000
DISH PVR-501
Evu 6000

Mike,

What i was suggesting is not a Supertower on Lookout, but a tower away from the almightly political power of the (S)CARE group who have all the govt'l bodies on their side.

If i was a betting man, i'd put the chance of any new towers or addtl. (legally permitted) X-mitters on Lookout at about... 1 in a million in our lifetime. Ain't gonna' happen!

The local stations are dreaming if they think they can out maneauver all the state representatives and county board members that (S)CARE have siding with them. Anybody forget all the super rich that live on Lookout and in Genesee who have huge financial, political and social influence with them.

Now, back to reality... i suggest building a tower in Commerce City? That's a heavy industrial location, far enough away from a heavily populated area. That's gotta' be cheaper than paying the Cedar Group Rent for Eldorado Mt.?

Come 'on stations... admit they've got 'ya beat, move on to plan B!


------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)


[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 10-01-2001).]

Jimbo,
I forgot to note the concerns over the "Radio Free Zone" and the Eldorado site. I read about it and wondered if this new issue was being orchestrated by someone who was against the Eldorado site. I guess without seeing the data, and understanding the issue more fully, I would not be quick to jump and agree with any "facts" presented by anyone--even NIST. Boulder is hardly a radio free zone. KVCU broadcasts at 6800 Watts (just down the road)...low wattage, but there must be other radio/tv broadcasters in Boulder at even higher wattage. How much power is involved in the HDTV towers vs. normal towers? Anyone understand this issue better than me?

dan

The radio free zone is legit. It is one of two research sites of its kind in the continental United States. It is not a place where you truly would get zero TV or radio reception. However, it is sheltered and local radio broadcasters should be relatively low power and using directional antennas to avoid blasting the hell out of the quiet zone.

There is an awful lot of expensive instrumentation on the ground in the quiet zone. Military aircraft (like the mighty B-52) know not to use ECMs to jam the hell out of things near there. It is an established quiet zone and there is a strong scientific community nearby to use it. In other words, it would be dumb to trash it because of a few NIMBY's near Lookout Mountain.

Jim

------------------
Let me get this straight, this show is hi-def and 5.1, but my local affiliate makes it crappy NTSC and mono?!

Originally posted by santellavision:

Now, back to reality... i suggest building a tower in Commerce City? That's a heavy industrial location, far enough away from a heavily populated area. That's gotta' be cheaper than paying the Cedar Group Rent for Eldorado Mt.?



I think there were several arguments against a tower situated on the plains. I think one of the most significant ones is that there would be significant reflections off of the mountains (multipath).

I don't think a plains-based location has been identified that could provide the same coverage as Lookout/Morrisson.

Mark

Good point Mark.

But Eldorado Mt. ain't gonna happen either. First, not one of the local TV stations has shown any interest whatsoever in paying a third party (Pinnacle Towers) rent for space on that tower. Second, and probabily more important, the state Reps. have shown support of protecting the QFZ in Boulder. That's two strikes against Eldorado.

Also, i've heard that Pinnacle is in very serious financial trouble, that's not very enticing for stations
to want to jump into a deal with them either.



------------------
Ernie'sHomeTheatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)


[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 10-01-2001).]

Santella,

I think in the above post where you mention Lake Cedar Group you meant to say Pinnacle Towers, the owners of the El Dorado site.

When Geoff, JM and I toured the El Dorado site I came away satisfied that the engineers that would design and implement the tower new exactly how to install filters (as they already filter KBCO's 50,000 Watts) to protect the NIST quiet zone.

They (Pinnacle) will be taking all of the risk here, in building the tower and placing the antenna's. If it is shown that they are harming the NIST quiet zone, they will be forced to fix that situation at their own expense. It is in their best interest to protect the NIST quiet zone and I believe they will.

-John

[EDIT] Also Pinnacle has stated publically (I believe) and privately that they have at least one TV station and two radio stations ready to move in as soon as the tower is built. This may have changed with whatever TV station is building on Mt. Morrison (I forget) but they have said this. [end EDIT]

[This message has been edited by JohnJr (edited 10-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by JohnJr (edited 10-01-2001).]

Thanks John,
Yes, i meant to say Pinnacle. I've corrected my post.

------------------
Ernie'sHomeTheatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)


[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 10-01-2001).]

When I used to work for PSCo, I was privy to all of the technical information and research published by the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI). I found it interesting that they concluded years ago, and again in the 90's that all the Electro-magnetic field (EMF) and Radio Freqquency (RF) health scare was completely incorrect. As stated in previous posts, EPRI's conclusion was that household appliances, cell phones, and even walkman headphones, are far more risk than any powerline or broadcast EMF/RF, and that powerline or broadcast TV/radio and electric EMF/RF is not in the more harmful x-ray wavelength anyway. In fact, I can't remember the name of the key research "scientist" who first drummed up all the EMF/RF scare in the early 90's, but one of them ended up in jail in 1999 for falsifying data in his reports - was found out as part of discovery legal process when many US Utilities filed class action lawsuits against the researchers.

Are the Lookout Mtn. NIMBY's placing most of their argument on EMF/RF, or just adding EMF/RF to asthetics and property values? If so, what has Lake Cedar done to rebut CARE's claims directed at EMF/RF? Has Lake Cedar researched all of EPRI's studies??? Also, I'd be surprised if a certified property appraiser would risk their reputation or license for devaluing a property for additional transmission on Lookout when its already there.

I was close to a small shopping center land development project in Jeffco several years ago and was shocked at how only four people with NIMBY-ism could make such a fuss and literally steer the Planning Commission and County Commissioners in any direction, just like toy puppets. I literally felt that the Commissioners were responding to the calls of the few, with reckless, arbitrary, capricious, and total disregard for the majority supporting the project, especially since everything proposed was totally legal and adhered to all engineering, planning, and zoning requirements, and even got support from all of Jeffco's appropriate staff. The conclusion I drew was that the Jeffco Commissioners listened to the public at the meetings, and unfortunately, the project supporters were way outnumbered at the public meetings. I'd be willing to bet that if supporters turned out at the pubic meetings, en masse, things would change, but typically the supporters don't show up at these things, usually only the non-supporters are more dedicated to their cause and show up. Unless the Jeffco Commissions get some guts, or there is some sort of (god-forbid) class action legal action from citizens, the stations, or whoever, or a HUGE support turnout at the public meetings, I would bet my life savings that Jeffco won't allow anything on Lookout. As a sidenote, does anyone speculate that those against the towers might hypocritically smoke, use cell-phones, use UV tanning beds, or even go outside without sunscreen? (all 4 are greater health risk than EMF/RF exposure)

------------------
Proud to be 2nd generation City of Denver native

[This message has been edited by BrianRL (edited 10-01-2001).]

FYI:

I just started receiving a digital feed from ABC channel 7 tonight. Signal strength was zero, but it is now there on my guide....I assume that this means that it will be ON in the future--or is this a false assumption? This digital feed was not on my guide a couple of days ago... I get all other OTA channels (both digital and analog) at very strong signal strength with just "rabbit ears" (up here in Thornton). I will keep looking.

dan

I just mounted a roof top uhf ant just to get abc. I was getting a signal strength of 17 with rabbit ears which would not produce a signal, so I went to radioshack and got the best outdoor uhf ant. I now get a signal strength of 79 but still the picture does not lock. I get those anoying little boxes with a burst of motion but then it stops and does the same thing. You would think a 79 signal would be plenty to lock on it but it does not. I am going to get a signal amp to boost the signal just that little bit more that I need to get abc. Just in case you are wondering all the other digital channels are at 100 signal strength now.

JohnJr,

It is not a "filter" that FM stations use to control their horizontal plane radiation pattern but rather a directional transmitting antenna. KBCO uses a mast mounted antenna (normally the most circular mounting method) with some parasitic elements mounted at each bay in a fashion that reduces KBCO's signal in the direction of the Quiet Zone. Some FM transmission antennae are comprised of several elements or "panels" at each level surrounding a tower. With a panel system horizontal plane radiation pattern may be controlled by adjusting the amount of power delivered to each panel, increasing or decreasing the amount of signal radiated in the sector covered by that panel. Similar panel arrangements are sometimes used for VHF television stations.

Vertical radiation patterns and overall antenna gain are determined by the number of bays (vertical repetitions of elements), the spacing between these bays (usually expressed in relation to wavelength) and the bay signal feed arrangement (power ratios and relative phase).

When Geoff, JM and I toured the El Dorado site I came away satisfied that the engineers that would design and implement the tower new exactly how to install filters (as they already filter KBCO's 50,000 Watts) to protect the NIST quiet zone.

John,

If they filter out the transmissions toward the QFZ (North East) wouldn't that prejudice everyone in that direction including Ft. Collins? The stations would lose quite a lot of viewers.


------------------
Ernie'sHomeTheatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)


[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 10-01-2001).]

James Morgese, as I recall, indicated that their study had shown that they would lose many thousands of viewers north of Loveland if ElDorado was chosen, because of the quiet zone issues.

From my location in Fort Collins, it isn't difficult to get KBCO-FM. I'm not sure that indicates that digital TV reception would be good, especially if the signals needed to be more strongly restricted in this direction if a large number of broadcasters located there.

Reception of current VHF analog stations from Lookout varies--the lower frequency channels (2, 4 and 6) are pretty marginal (I think below "Grade B"), but 7 and 9 are reasonable, and 12 is better still (from Squaw Mtn).

Mark

Ernie,

We are getting way above my knowledge here, but I was just thinking that it may be a 3D filter. IE, filter NE and DOWN to protect the quiet zone, but North East and UP flying over the quiet zone may be ok. But I dunno http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

My guess is any filtering that would have to be done on El Dorado is the same as the resultant "natural" or man-made filtering on lookout in regards to the quiet zone. I am unaware of how Ft. Collins picks up signals from Lookout now, but I would guess that if anything their signal would be better from El Dorado seeing as it's some 5-7 miles North of Lookout.

Brian,

I believe most of (s)CARE's argument is based around possible health exposure's from the tower. Both from radiation and physical proximity to houses.

I agree with you in that a true show of majority support would only help our argument, but we seem to be unable to get the critical mass going here to show it. I believe we have over 100 interested observers, but then we also are factioned between leave it on Lookout Mountain groups and groups that support placing it anywhere that works like El Dorado.

I would love to be part of a 100 member show of support for Pinnacle Towers next meeting. (although I didn't even attend the last one) If there was an upcoming meeting for Lookout, I would equally love to be part of a 100 member show of support for that.

-John

Originally posted by JimboG:
JeffCo just needs to get some {guts} and ask (S)CARE, "If you're so scared about EM radiation, why haven't you moved yet?

Jim




Actually, according to the Canyon Courier's web site,
one of the Commisioners did say that.



In response, Sheehan said that if he feared for his family’s health or safety, he would move and suggested residents might consider that alternative themselves.


The whole article can be found here: Canyon Courier (http://www.canyoncourier.com/canyoncourier/myarticles.asp?P=251306&S=492&PubID=4731&EC=0)

-WabiSabi

Well said about New York!

There's been extensive research that it's not a problem living/working tremendously close to broadcast x-mitters. The Empire State Blgd has had numerous full-power radio & television X-mitters within 200' of the business offices in the same building, and apartments in adjacent buildings for over 60 years. You'd think if there is a cancer or sleep disorder problem, they'd have seen it by now.

Same goes for the Sears tower and the former WTC, (May they rest in peace) that building has had 50,000 workers working there with millions of watts of broadcast power for over 30 years with NO documented problems.

------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)


[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 10-02-2001).]

Its nice to see this thread being posted to
on a quasi-regular basis again.
Dinger

While I get KMGH with no problems, save the occasional lip syncing problems, I wonder if we could somehow request to KMGH that they increase the power for their digital broadcasts to allow those of you in suburbs farther away from their Speer location to be able to pull in their signals.

There is obviously enough content to justify it this year. I have read and contributed to this and the previous threads and honestly don't remember any of us ever bringing it up before. If so, my apologies in advance. Since KCNC and KRMA have higher powered signals approved by the City of Denver, perhaps they could look into increasing a bit.

Just a random thought on this fine looking Tuesday.

Jeff

"Members of Canyon Area Residents for the Environment told Jefferson County Commissioner Rick Sheehan that they want to see a moratorium on Lookout Mountain broadcast antennae until broadcasters can prove radio frequency radiation emanating from those towers is safe, regulation loopholes are closed, and existing towers are brought into compliance." Canyon Courier article exerpt

I want to comment on this portion: "until broadcasters can prove radio frequency radiation emanating from those towers is safe"...

It is the goal of epidemiology to find cause and effect relationships in public health matters. It is great when you can identify a cause and effect. There is positive evidence that overexposure to sunlight causes skin cancer. There is positive evidence that smoking causes lung cancer. There will NEVER be evidence of anything NOT causing something else. It is contrary to the normal process of discovering cause and effect relationships to LOOK FOR "NO EFFECT". Do you get my drift?

This is the logic that is employed every time issues like this end up in "scared" residents back yard's. There is NO WAY to prove that EM radiation is NOT a problem THAT WILL SATISFY THIS CROWD. You can quote stats like the NYC transmitters and population density till you turn blue... this is not positive proof of safety. There is no smoking gun, so there is nothing to prove or disprove. In fact, almost any issue related to charged health issues like "cancer" are subject to a wide range of hard to identify factors--ask any oncologist!

I am so tired of listening to this tripe. Let the local residents talk about "back drop" issues. Let them talk about proper monitoring and controls. BUT, stop talking about things that will never be resolved or proven in any fashion or form....notably EM radiation induced health concerns. As I said before, they better get rid of their toasters, dryers, hair dryers, electrical wiring, TV's, and anything with electrical current running through it--IF THEY ARE SO CONCERNED WITH EM ISSUES. While they are at it, they also better stop smoking, stop drinking alcohol, and stop lounging in the sun!

Dan

I haven't heard much on the status of the KGWN-HD channel out of Cheyenne, so I called them this morning. As I was talking to them, the person taking the call asked where I was from. When I told her Greeley, she said that she didn't think that I would be able to get the signal because people in Ft. Collins can't get the signal. I told her that I can get Channel 5, so I would expect to get the HD channel when available.

Can you who live in Northern Colorado get channel 5? or was she mistaken?

BTW, the engineer was out to lunch, and hasn't yet returned my call. I'll report back if I here anything. Anyone else been in contact with them lately?

-Mike

The problem is that most of Lookout is zoned residential and JeffCo's ordinances do not allow the zoning to be waived willy-nilly and the CARE group will sue the snot out of them if one 'i' is not dotted or one 't' not crossed. (Any chance of more antennas near Fox 31, I think that antenna is on agricultural land and why they got their waiver?)

Why should the JeffCo commisisioners approve any location (unless legally they have no choice) until HDTV voters significaly outnumber the CARE voters - but with no OTA HDTV there are few HDTV users? ElDorado seems the most likely, in my mind.

What was that location in Clear Creek County?

You could build a big antenna on the plains but DIA, Buckley (and its antennas and air traffic), and FCC distance requirements to stations east of Denver all detract.

Originally posted by mknoebel:
I haven't heard much on the status of the KGWN-HD channel out of Cheyenne, so I called them this morning. As I was talking to them, the person taking the call asked where I was from. When I told her Greeley, she said that she didn't think that I would be able to get the signal because people in Ft. Collins can't get the signal. I told her that I can get Channel 5, so I would expect to get the HD channel when available.

Can you who live in Northern Colorado get channel 5? or was she mistaken?

-Mike

I hadn't bugged anyone at KGWN for awhile since they had implied earlier that November was probably best case. But if the engineer calls back let us know the latest.

Channel 5 is definitely receivable from Fort Collins with a significantly better signal than KCNC out of Denver. But most people don't have antennas pointed that way, or they get only the Denver stations on cable or satellite, so in that sense they "can't get the signal".

Mark

This morning I was getting 44 signal strength on DT17 , but this evening it has dropped to 24. The KMGH mess with signal power throughout the day? I am using the Silver Sensor in my attic and it out performs a Channel Master Yagi I have.

BTW--I have a Wineguard UHF only preamp for $20. If you are in a fringe area, this will benefit you, (not if your withing 15 miles of broadcast station).

Interesting article in the Canyon Courier. I especially like the quote from the physicist, "Michael Reilly, physicist, lives less than two miles from the towers. Three of his neighbors have cancer, he told the commissioner in an impassioned voice." Does Michael Reilly say what cancer or a probable cause, and does his being a physicist qualify him as an oncology expert? Of course not. And certainly RF/EMF could not be proven as the cancer cause either. Perhaps all 3 neighbors have lung cancer attributable to a lifetime of smoking. So, by applying Mr. Reilly's logic when talking to a planner in New York City, he could argue against the replacement of the transmitter that was atop the North World Trade Center tower by saying something like, "Thousands lost their lives because the support structure for the tower fell down, so don't build another tower."

My buddy in NYC, (an oncology specialist BTW) says that, with respect to transmitters in NYC and other large eastern cities, millions of people live within 2 miles of transmitters. Do you expect that some of those people have cancer? They sure do. Mr. Reilly and the other CARE'ers would be quick to point it out in an impassioned voice.

Perhaps CARE and the Jeffco Commissioners should read articles on the EMF/RF health scare bruhalla as published by Dr. John E. Moulder, Ph.D., Oncology Professor and Department Head, at University of Wisconsin Medical Center.

Sorry for being so harsh here....I'll shut up now.

[This message has been edited by BrianRL (edited 10-02-2001).]

G-MONEY-- feel lucky, I get a ZERO on 17, and ch. 32, and 18 are screaming at me. Any suggestions? (20 dollar UHF on the back of my house (with mast), and it's pointing toward downtown)

G-MONEY,

Which model Wineguard pre-amp do you have? I can't find any for near $20.
Thanks!

------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)

pookers: I live near Kilping and Morrison. If I position my antenna halfway between Lookout Mtn and Downtown (slightly more towards downtown), I can pick up KRMA-DT at 66 and KDVR-DT at 44 signal strength. I am currently more concentrated on KMGH-DT 17 by pointing STRAIGHT Downtown since KDVR isn't yet at full HD. Also, RadioShack has a $40 UHF Yagi that works as good as anything out there (can't remember model). I had it, returned it, and made the mistake of mail ordering a Channel Master that doesn't perform any better.

Ernie: It's the Winegard AP-4800. See:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/winegard.htm#winpre
http://www.winegard.com/products/accessories/acc_chromstar2000_accessories.html


ps You should be receiving the deposit for the IFS tour tomorrow.

G-Money, I even went on my roof (with 10ft mast), nothing on 17. Channels 18, and 32 are consistently around 85, peaks well above 95 most of the time. I got the antenna pointing west/north from my house. Wondering if a pre-amp would work. Please advise.

Anybody out there with a Dish 6000 that receives KMGH 17-1? I know Hot does. I do too but as of the last couple nights I dont get any audio on 17-1, but I do still get it on 17-2

Like 2 nights ago it was breaking up really bad (audio only)on 17-1 and now the last 2 nights it's dead audiowise altogether on 17-1. Yet I get it ok still on my DirecTv HD receiver. Wonder what the deal is.

------------------
Dan

Mitsubishi 55805
Dish 6000
DirecTv/Mitsu SR-HD400
Evu 6000

It takes me a bit...

I just realized that we really do have an ongoing issue here... namely the hearings on El Dorado re-zoning. From what I understand the planning commission is meeting again on the 10th on this issue and will issue a "recommendation" to city council regarding the re-zoning on the 7th of November. While I did not make it to the last meeting, I will try and make it to this upcoming meeting. (although it will be tough for me as I have some business that might conflict on that day).

In the meantime I plan on writing the planning commission in support of Pinnacle Towers re-zoning request and I urge anyone else that doesn't care if the towers are on El Dorado or Lookout to do the same. I'm sure the addy is somewhere back in the thread here somewhere.

-John

Anyone notice that KMGH's audio is way out of sync with the video. I called on two nights to complain, to no avail. I guess I'll have to call during the day. It's been a while since they've let this anomaly happen. I wonder if someone is on vacation.

I have noticed that the past two days, ABC 17-2 has no sound as well. Anybody know of any problems they may be having?

pookers:

Best advice is the large UHF only antenna from Radio Shack. Someone already spoke for the pre-amp I have, but Radio Shack does sell them (although They do not call them pre-amps).

Sometimes it's a matter of millimeters to get tuned in, soooo, best advice on that is "just mess with it" until it drives you crazy like it has everyone else.

G-Money


[This message has been edited by G-MONEY (edited 10-04-2001).]

This link pertains to the KCNC low power HDTV transmitter on Republic Plaza.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/005350.html

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Mitsubishi WS-55805
Dish 6000
DISH PVR-501
Evu 6000

There's a story inthe Denver Post today (CO & the West section p.25A) about Genesee homeowners boycotting PBS (KRMA, KVOD, KUVO) with holding back donations. They also are sending out these boycott materials to Morrison, Hiwan, Paradise, Idledale, and Evergreen.

Are these people idiots?

Let me see if i have this correct...
OK, these are dedicated viewers/listeners that enjoy the stations enough to make donations, yet they want to hurt the stations financially so they won't build a tower that brings them the programing they enjoy in the first place????

------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)

Another PBS-HD heads up... I would also urge members that did not contribute to PBS in thanks for their co-broadcast of last years SuperBowl to contribute now as a show of support for their HD efforts.

The program National Geographic Special # 2004 "Quest for Noah's Flood" will be fed in HD on Tuesday, 10/9/01 at 19:00 & 22:00 (MT) on DT2A (RX-IF=1379).
Please see that it is broadcast on KRMA DT 18.

-John

I donated to Rocky Mountain PBS.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Mitsubishi WS-55805
Dish 6000
DISH PVR-501
Evu 6000

Originally posted by santellavision:
There's a story inthe Denver Post today (CO & the West section p.25A) about Genesee homeowners boycotting PBS (KRMA, KVOD, KUVO) with holding back donations. They also are sending out these boycott materials to Morrison, Hiwan, Paradise, Idledale, and Evergreen.



Here is the URL: http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1002,53%257E170569,00.html

------------------
jm in Boulder

I briefly tuned to KMGH-DT last night and noticed lip sync problems and some sound problems in the wide screen feed.

I was watching CBS HDTV on DISH.



------------------
Mike aka Hot

Mitsubishi WS-55805
Dish 6000
DISH PVR-501
Evu 6000

I spoke to an engineer at KUSA the NBC affiliate in Denver about the new NBC HDTV offerings. KUSA has no plans for a low power transmitter. They say they are waiting for Jefferson County to approve a tower on Lookout Mountain.

The engineer did not know if they would grant waivers for HDTV if DISH Network gets NBC HDTV. He said I would have to ask the General Manager Roger Ogden.

We are still years away from a full power tower thanks to CARE and the Jefferson County Commissioners.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Mitsubishi WS-55805
Dish 6000
DISH PVR-501
Evu 6000

[This message has been edited by Hot (edited 10-08-2001).]

It's been a week now and still haven't heard back from KGWN in Cheyenne. I think I'm just going to have to be lucky and catch them at the right time, because it doesn't seem like they return their calls...

-Mike

Originally posted by mknoebel:
I haven't heard much on the status of the KGWN-HD channel out of Cheyenne, so I called them this morning. As I was talking to them, the person taking the call asked where I was from. When I told her Greeley, she said that she didn't think that I would be able to get the signal because people in Ft. Collins can't get the signal. I told her that I can get Channel 5, so I would expect to get the HD channel when available.

Can you who live in Northern Colorado get channel 5? or was she mistaken?

BTW, the engineer was out to lunch, and hasn't yet returned my call. I'll report back if I here anything. Anyone else been in contact with them lately?

-Mike

A response I got from ABC corporate.
Scroll down to see my original question.
They sent out their standard pre-packaged tripe about their commitment blah blah blah...

And, my response to their email is right here:

Please answer my question!
My question was WHEN will the Denver Metropolitan Area be included in your
"major commitment to high definition television programming". ABC is not
taking any leading position in HDTV broadcasting if it cannot get large city
affiliates to start broadcasting in HDTV. The current low power HDTV for
ABC broadcasts is hardly a forward commitment to digital television.

Thanks for listening.

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: "ABC.COM-Technical" <technical@online.abc.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: problem submitted through e-mail abc page


In a major commitment to high-definition television programming, ABC
will broadcast all of its primetime comedy and drama series, as well as
all theatrical movies, in HDTV for the 2001-02 television season.

ABC was the first network to broadcast in HDTV, beginning in November,
1998, and it is the only network currently broadcasting its HD
programming in Dolby Digital 5.1-channel surround sound. All of ABC's
programs will use 720 Progressive (720P), ABC's selected HDTV format.

ABC is totally committed to bringing the best possible viewing
experience to our audiences through HDTV technology. ABC's fall
programs are an especially powerful way of showcasing the amazing
technology of HDTV.

The announcement will bring the total number of hours that ABC is
broadcasting in HDTV to more than 60% of its primetime schedule. In
addition to NYPD Blue, which became ABC's first regularly scheduled
entertainment series to be broadcast in high definition last season, the
series to be broadcast in HDTV include Dharma & Greg, Spin City,
Philly, My Wife and Kids, The Drew Carey Show, Thieves, Once
and Again, The Practice, What About Joan, Bob Patterson,
According to Jim, The Job, The Wonderful World of Disney, The ABC
Big Picture Show, The Court, The Web and Alias.

Since it began broadcasting in HDTV in 1998 and through November of this
year, ABC will have broadcast 71 theatrical titles in HDTV. This
includes more than 40 theatrical movies in HDTV last season. The network
will continue to broadcast all theatricals in HDTV for the 2001-02
season.

The first HDTV broadcast of the new season will be the one-hour season
premiere of Dharma & Greg on September 18, from 8:00-9:00 p.m.
ABC began broadcasting high-definition television, including Dolby
Digital 5.1-channel surround sound, on November 1, 1998, with the
theatrical presentation of The Wonderful World of Disney: 101
Dalmatians. Since then ABC has broadcast many other theatricals in
HDTV, as well as numerous sporting events. Those events include the
first live, regularly scheduled HDTV sporting event in primetime, the
1999-2000 season of Monday Night Football. ABC has also broadcast
Super Bowl XXXIV and the 2000 National Hockey League All-Star Game
in HDTV.

Best Regards,

Customer Care
ABC.COM

Original Message Follows:
-------------------------


User Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98)
Server Time: Sep 29 2001 5:37AM

subject: HDTV offerings
problem: When will your local DENVER affilliate offer HDTV to the
metropolitan area. LOW POWER HDTV serves a very small area. I look
forward to seeing Monday Night Football in HDTV!

Thanks,

Here is a thread in the programming forum about DISH Network going after all network HDTV signals.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/005510.html

I hope Echostar gets the FCC to go along with allowing out of market HDTV reception until the station is full power.

Some of our stations are trying to say they are on the air because they have a low power digital transmitter. Only KDVR-DT FOX is full power with no HDTV ands only NTSC upconverts, not even the 480P 16:9 sent by the network.

I hope the FCC gives Echostar the go ahead and prohibits the local stations who are not full power digital from denying waivers for out of market HDTV reception.

These local stations have said they are trying to get Jefferson County to approve a new tower. Well they should be using their airwaves in an editorial capacity to tell the public about CARE and the Jefferson County Commissioners delaying tactics in getting full power digital television on the air in Denver. I left a message for Paula Woodward on Nine Wants to Know and she never had the courtesy to return my call. So much for a local station caring to do a story about their failure to have HDTV.

I now agree after talking to several stations that they are just trying to appease the FCC by saying they are on the air with low power transmitters. We need FULL POWER not LOW POWER.

Even thought I am lucky enough to live close to downtown and can receive these low power signals, it is not fair to the other HDTV owners in the Denver DMA who are not able to receive these signals.

Support Charlie Ergan in his quest to get HDTV to everyone in the Denver DMA, which incidentally will probable include his own home and the homes of many Echostar Executives.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Mitsubishi WS-55805
Dish 6000
DISH PVR-501
Evu 6000

Here is another quote about the Denver Tower problem from the programming forum by a member who does not post here anymore:

Originally posted by Geof:
Email cannot hurt but it probably won’t have much effect. Snail mail is far better but only if they get enough letters. Remember these stations live and die by ratings, aka, numbers of viewers. The number of DTV capable viewers in Denver isn’t on their radar screen and the station managers are not foresighted enough to care about H/DTV – they care about their bottom line - today. Spending money on DTV for a couple of hundred viewers doesn’t help their bottom line today. Spending $25K/month for electricity to power that digital transmitter doesn’t help their bottom line today. I’d bet big money that if a business case could be made in favor of H/DTV the LCG stations would have "out legal’ed" the (S)CARE folks. As it is no business case can be made and the (S)CARE situation is too convenient to pass up so they are taking advantage of that situation to avoid spending the money to upgrade their infrastructures. Frankly (and sadly ) I do not believe 100 letters will change that.

I find it interesting (and revealing) that KRMA has submitted a Morrison proposal - independent of the LCG. While I have no first hand knowledge (or inside info) I think one can reasonably conclude that KRMA believes they can make better progress by going it alone. If that is the case (and that is how I intrepret this) then one must conclude the other LCG stations are giving us nothing more than lip service......

We (myself, JM, and others) lead an effort to write the FCC over a year ago. Those letters were posted in the first part of the Denver Tower thread. Again, sending letters won’t hurt but frankly I think the FCC is a major part of the problem with H/DTV deployment so I think our plea’s would (again) fall on deaf ears.

I remain convinced that when it becomes advantageous for the LCG stations to get with digital that they will. Personally I do not believe this will happen before 2005 (perhaps 2004). In the interim they may feed us a Low Power signal (someday) to appease some viewers (along with the FCC).IMO, what we all need to do is just boycott these stations, say to hell with them, and move onto some other channel.



Here is the link:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/005350.html


------------------
Mike aka Hot

Mitsubishi WS-55805
Dish 6000
DISH PVR-501
Evu 6000




[This message has been edited by Hot (edited 10-11-2001).]

I thought I would post some quotes from other threads in the programming forum that pertain to our situation in Denver:

Originally posted by JMartinko:
woowoo (??)
I read your note, and I do have a certain amount of sympathy for small market stations. I am sure that there are some out there who simply can't afford it at the moment. They were, in fact, given longer time to get on the air in the first place, and I would expect the FCC to use some restraint in fining a station knowing the fine will put it out of business.
Stations in Denver market do not fall in that category. Denver is one of the top 30 TV markets in the country, and the stations are available over much of the state by satellite to cable systems. For them to plead funding problems is absurd. The reality here is that they are using the NIMBY's on Lookout Mountain as an excuse not to be on the air. Yes, they are having zoning problems. It is also true their application for new towers was apparently so poorly prepared it probably wouldn't have been approved by Jefferson County even without complaints from the locals. These Denver stations knew this would be an issue years ago.

At present, they have not even submitted a new plan for new towers on Lookout (or any other mountain for that matter). The reality is, they currently have NO PUBLIC PLANS for HDTV. That is why they need to be fined. Why the FCC is granting them license extensions is also interesting, since they could not have not presented any plans to them either. I can't speak for other cities, but the stations here deserve to be fined (KRMA excepted, as they have been on the air low power for over a year and have submitted an application for a new tower). I think there are a lot of stations in the country who are financially capable of putting up towers, they are just not motivated by the short term return on investment. Fines would provide some financial motivation.



Originally posted by Mgibsoj:
Perhaps the Denver situation has made me less tolerant to extensions, as they have been so fragrantly abused to the financial advantage of the Denver stations (NBC, ABC, CBS). But, to grant further extensions would not only be another thumbing of their noses at the Colorado public and wanton disregard to the FCC mandate, but to all those stations that did invest and got DTV (many with HDTV) OTA. This was the basis for my suggestion that they should be fined to extract the money from them to do DTV, then give it back to them when they spend it, along with a fine for any further delays. It is not like May is tomorrow, it is still over a half year away! Not enough people to do the job? HIRE! With all the tech layoffs here, it would be hard to believe that there's not enough tech-saavy people here in the Denver metro to manage it. Equipment lead times? Offer up some incentives to the manufacturers to get it delivered on time. Need more financial help (due to failure to plan for this, I might add)? Time for the networks of the O&Os to do their part. I have no tolerance for lazy management who would rather sit on their sorry butts in anticipation of another extension (and a simpler process to boot), rather than contribute to the local Denver economy and actually get some work done towards progress.




I wish we would gets posts from these guys on this thread.

Here is a link to the thread I copies the quotes from: http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/005502.html



------------------
Mike aka Hot

Mitsubishi WS-55805
Dish 6000
DISH PVR-501
Evu 6000

In todays' Boulder Daily Camera
"Fire Official Opposes Towers"

"The hearing was the third of four Planning Commission hearings scheduled to address the proposal by Florida-based Pinnacle Towers Inc. The company has asked Jeffco to rezone its 40 acres to allow up to three HDTV broadcast towers as tall as 450 feet.
Jack Barney, a Coal Creek Canyon Fire Department official, testified that the steep and winding mountain driveway leading to the top of Eldorado Mountain would prohibit his department from fighting a fire at the facility. "

Full text at
http://www.bouldernews.com/news/local/11ltowr.html

------------------
jm in Boulder

I attended that meeting. It was quite negative, I thought. I have been following this for quite sometime, I just wish I was at the other two September meetings, so I can put in my two cents worth.
QUESTION TO THE THREAD:
1) If this proposal is denied then what?
2) Is there anything going on with the Lookout Mountain issue?
3) Are they gonna deny the Mt. Morrison proposal also?
4) What's this big push for Squaw Mountain?

My thoughts: There are towers on Lookout, so I believe that DTV xmitters should go there. This has obviously has been tried, and denied, so Eldorado looks pretty good right now. If any of you think that Jeff. Co. is gonna go with Pinnacle, then it must be someones fantasy. It has all been negative, (I have the "TOWERS TO BE SKYSCRAPERS" article on my bulletin at work)
I really disliked the Coal Creek Canyon Fire Department saying that fire trucks, diesel and water trucks would regularly be traveling this 30% grade road. He also mentioned propane?

I was puzzled by that comment.
Just my thoughts. By the way, I went over to the guy from Pinnacle and wished him good luck. Let's get on with it. I WILL be attending the Nov. 7th meeting. I suggest all of you Coloradans that support DTV to be there.

Before I headed to the meeting, I was on my roof trying to get KMGH-DT (on a 20ft mast, this time), with no luck of course. But I did manage to tweak 18 and 32 to 100 on the meter!

CLOSING: I was really hope this goes our way (people in the thread). I over heard someone in the hallway (while passing thru) talking about a Yagi, so I knew I was not alone.

I attended that meeting. It was quite negative, I thought. I have been following this for quite sometime, I just wish I was at the other two September meetings, so I can put in my two cents worth.
QUESTION TO THE THREAD:
1) If this proposal is denied then what?
2) Is there anything going on with the Lookout Mountain issue?
3) Are they gonna deny the Mt. Morrison proposal also?
4) What's this big push for Squaw Mountain?

For the moment I will re-enter this thread and post my comments….

If this proposal is denied then what?Good question – But IMO it’s kind of immaterial for getting High Power DTV in Denver in the near term….Here’s why….

Most of the LCG stations have emphatically stated they will never relocate to Eldorado. IF (and that’s a big IF) that is true then it would probably be better if JeffCo denies the Pinnacle application. I say that because any Lookout application could then be rejected and stations told to go to Eldorado where there are approved facilities. JeffCo realizes they will ultimately have to approve a location but approval for several locations is going to be real real tough. Thus, if the stations won’t move to Eldorado getting Lookout approved is going to be even more difficult.

If Eldorado is approved and IF the stations are blowing smoke and would move to Eldorado they will likely stall and claim Eldorado is unsuitable until the last possible moment. I am convinced we don’t have high power DTV yet because they (LCG stations minus KRMA) don’t want to spend the money and they can continue to avoid spending money by claiming Eldorado is unsuitable until they have to do something.

Is there anything going on with the Lookout Mountain issue? NO. A big fat NO.
WHY?
Good question.
We should assume the stations are dragging their feet because they really don’t want to build the facilities.

Are they gonna deny the Mt. Morrison proposal also?
This would not surprise me. The (S)CARE folks are waging a full scale war against Morrison. KRMA has made (what looks to me at least) a real fine proposal, one that will clean up some issues on Lookout. But, that’s not good enough for (S)CARE. That brings me to….

What's this big push for Squaw Mountain?

Squaw is out of sight for most folks and out of the (S)CARE backyard. It is easily the least controversial site from aesthetic and NIMBY points of view but it is, unfortunately, also the least technically favorable location.

IMO we must all realize the biggest single problem is not JeffCo, nor (S)CARE, but the stations themselves....Once they decide they have to do H/DTV it will get done - one way or the other but it will get done. Right now there are many indicators from the LCG stations that indicate they are not fully embracing the H/DTV transition.

I do not plan to actively participate in this thread at this time. There isn't much more for me to say. I am obviously not overly optimistic nor encouraged by the Denver area situation. That does not mean I do not care or that I have given up. When we can get thousands of area residents demanding H/DTV our voices might be heard.

------------------
Geof

[This message has been edited by Geof (edited 10-11-2001).]

Geof wrote:
Good question Ü But IMO itÍs kind of immaterial for getting High Power DTV in Denver in the near termƒ.HereÍs whyƒ.Most of the LCG stations have emphatically stated they will never relocate to Eldorado. IF (and thatÍs a big IF) that is true then it would probably be better if JeffCo denies the Pinnacle application. I say that because any Lookout application could then be rejected and stations told to go to Eldorado where there are approved facilities. JeffCo realizes they will ultimately have to approve a location but approval for several locations is going to real real tough.
IF the stations are blowing smoke and would move to Eldorado they will likely stall and claim Eldorado is unsuitable until the last possible moment. I am convinced we donÍt have high power DTV yet because they (LCG stations minus KRMA) donÍt want to spend the money and they can avoid spending the money by claiming Eldorado is unsutable until they have to do something.


There is one other consideration being missed by all, which LCG members have discussed. If Jeffco tries to force them to move their extra signals off of Lookout, they could move the analog signal there and replace the existing equipment on Lookout with the DTV stuff most likely without violating any existing zoning laws. Then in 2006, they shut off the Eldorado stuff and stay on their own property on Lookout. There may be nothing that Jeffco could legally do to stop that since the existing Lookout Towers are grandfathered. This would leave the stations happy, and the state screwed with a bunch of useless towers on Eldorado adding to the scenic blight.

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jm in Boulder

[This message has been edited by JMartinko (edited 10-11-2001).]

There is one other consideration being missed by all, which LCG members have discussed. If Jeffco tries to force them to move their extra signals to Lookout, they could move the analog signal there and replace the existing equipment on Lookout with the DTV stuff most likely without violating any existing zoning laws. Then in 2006, they shut off the Eldorado stuff and stay on their own property on Lookout. There may be nothing that Jeffco could legally do to stop that since the existing Lookout Towers are grandfathered. This would leave the stations happy, and the state screwed with a bunch of useless towers on Eldorado adding to the scenic blight.

I love the part where (S)CARE gets screwed and has towers on Lookout forever.....

------------------
Geof

Originally posted by dleithaus:
FYI:

... I get all other OTA channels (both digital and analog) at very strong signal strength with just "rabbit ears" (up here in Thornton). I will keep looking.

dan

Dan:

Do you have a line-of-sight to the broadcast antenna with your rabbit ears?

Thanks.

Originally posted by JMartinko:
There is one other consideration being missed by all, which LCG members have discussed. If Jeffco tries to force them to move their extra signals to Lookout, they could move the analog signal there and replace the existing equipment on Lookout with the DTV stuff most likely without violating any existing zoning laws. Then in 2006, they shut off the Eldorado stuff and stay on their own property on Lookout. There may be nothing that Jeffco could legally do to stop that since the existing Lookout Towers are grandfathered. This would leave the stations happy, and the state screwed with a bunch of useless towers on Eldorado adding to the scenic blight.


Do you mean Eldorado when you say "If Jeffco tries to force them to move their extra signals to Lookout,"

Then I think it is a great idea. Move analog to Eldorado. Set up digital on existing towers on Lookout and CARE can do nothing about it.

------------------
Mike aka Hot

Mitsubishi WS-55805
Dish 6000
DISH PVR-501
Evu 6000

[/QUOTE]
Do you mean Eldorado when you say "If Jeffco tries to force them to move their extra signals to Lookout,"

Then I think it is a great idea. Move analog to Eldorado. Set up digital on existing towers on Lookout and CARE can do nothing about it.
[/QUOTE]

My bad, I meant "off of" Lookout, I made the correction, thanks for pointing it out. Can't type and drink coffee at the same time.

------------------
jm in Boulder


[This message has been edited by JMartinko (edited 10-11-2001).]

Ah, maybe this is KCNC, KWGN, KUSA, KMGH, KTVD secret plan...
(Not KRMA, at least they're trying)

Stay low-power or no-power DTV until 2006 (less expensive/more profit for them)
Stay on Republic Blgd (cheaper than building new or paying high rent on Eldorado)
Switch over to Digital-only, no analog on Lookout in 2006 (Grandfathered in)
Screw the analog viewers on the last day switch-over.

Why not, they're screwing the DTV views now, why change!

------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)

[This message has been edited by santellavision (edited 10-11-2001).]

For obvious reasons (some of which you state), I would assume that moving the analog to Eldorado would be a last resort. As Geof stated, it is all pretty much intellectual BS at the moment, since we all know that even if Jeffco approves Eldorado, the local residents in Eldorado, Coal Creek Canyon, and likely Boulder too, will take it all to the courts for several years anyway. What works for the (S)CARE group will easily work for them too, and they actually have more experience at it than the (S)CARE group from other things the county has tried to shove into Eldorado Canyon. Nothing is going to happen here for at least 2-4 years, and the only real question in my mind, is what do I throw together to get the HD networks until then. As near as I can tell, the only thing we can really accomplish with this thread is to vent some steam now and then.

------------------
jm in Boulder

[This message has been edited by JMartinko (edited 10-11-2001).]

Geez folks, no posts since yesterday, my comments were made to stimulate discussion, not kill it. Maybe my critic had a point and I shouldn't post my opinions in this thread since they seem to be things people don't want to hear. Sorry for sounding so negative in my posts, I just call 'em as I see 'em, and I am not encouraged by much of what is going on. I can't even seem to get Bob Ross to comment on KCNC on my other 'question' thread even after he said he would look into things. I had hoped he would shed some positive light on the situation so I could eat some crow. His silence doesn't bode well for even low power HD from CBS. I sure hope he is just too busy to reply. This is one time I really hope my sources were wrong.

------------------
jm in Boulder

As I have said before anyone not liking an opinion on topic in this thread can go get a barium enima. The forum exist for people here to ask questions, provide answers and express views on AVS issues. As has been said, the Denver HDTV OTA problem is and will continue to be critical mass. Until there are enough people who care about HDTV OTA here in the Denver area nothing will change in the short term. Sorry if this sounds fatalistic but its reality.

Well, speaking only for myself I havent had much to say on this issue for along time jm. And it has nothing to do with any of your posts which are appreciated none-the-less. It's just that I've personally moved on.

I realized a couple years ago when I first understood what dtv is all about that we were gonna have a problem here in Denver that wasnt about to be solved anytime soon. And it still hasnt been, nor is there any light at the end of the tunnel. We just keep going around in circles. Lookout, Eldorado, Mt Morrison,... Lookout, Eldorado, Mt Morrison.

Heck, and as we're seeing in some other cities just having digital towers doesnt guarantee anything anyway. ABC in St. Louis wont pass through the HDTV feed. CBS in Phoenix wont. NBC in Boston doesnt. CBS in Chicago isnt going out OTA because of a conflict with cable boxes...just to name a few examples.

This week marks the 1 year anniversary that I went with Evu. What a great purchase that has been. CBS, ABC, HD movies..special events.. some PBS recently. Now the unit can be had for about 450.00 I happen to get ABC and PBS OTA also but it's still nice to have both feeds of the two for some timeshifting as well.

Fact is, I wasnt watching much of the local stations even before dtv. I certainly would if they would start offering it. But because along the lines of what Geof said, until we number in the few thousands as opposed to a few dozen, I dont suppose the stations really care about when they will send out a full power dtv signal. And for reasons mentioned above, nor do I.

------------------
Dan

Mitsubishi 55805
Dish 6000
DirecTv/Mitsu SR-HD400
Evu 6000



[This message has been edited by DP1 (edited 10-12-2001).]

Note - this post was predicated on another post which has since been deleted.....

No one can ever prove RF isn't a safety hazard. It would be like trying to prove you never had sexual thoughts about Queen Victoria or Brad Pitt (for example). From the (S)CARE perspective that is the beauty of their claim. It can never be disproven and it can be successfully used to spread fear and concern amongst the local residents and garner sympathy from other citizens. They're even claiming they loose sleep because of the RF on Lookout......

That said, let me refresh everyone's memory - the "Supertower" wasn't denied because of alleged health concerns - it was denied because of other (mostly safety related) concerns. I find it highly implausible that the LCG cannot submit a proposal that would meet all of the JeffCo TLUP requirements and not pose any undue safety hazards. That they have not submitted a revised proposal nearly 2 years after the first rejection strongly suggests they don't want to deal with the issues and face them head-on. It's the stations that are screwing us - they have not given this a full faith effort. Follow the money....it's still in the station bank account....makes the GM look good - no?

As I mentioned in a previous post, I believe the fact the KRMA has submitted an independent proposal (independent of the LCG) speaks volumes about the motives of the remaining LCG stations......I believe the only reason KRMA DT is not on the air with full power is they got swept up with the clevery disguised disingenuous intentions of the other LCG stations. Now that they are going it alone I would be willing to bet they'll beat the other LCG stations...(S)CARE notwithstanding.

Dan (DP1) - your post is dead-on.

------------------
Geof


[This message has been edited by Geof (edited 10-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Geof (edited 10-12-2001).]

If the stations were sincere in their efforts to get on the air with DTV, I'm sure the FCC would give them an STA so they could (temporarily) place their (medium powered?) transmitters and antenna at Squaw Mtn. This would get them on the air and get the FCC off their backs. At the same time, this would prove/disprove that the Squaw Mtn site is a viable alternative.

-Knowing that this will probably NEVER happen,
WabiSabi

Well folks maybe I am dense, maybe I am just overly sensitive, or maybe I am just a jerk. I just got a private message for my previous post. The private message says: It was more than clear from your response to my post that you didn't read a damn sentence that I wrote, but rather jumped to conclusions and wrote a condescending "May I remind everybody..." which was apparently directed at myself. I choose no longer to participate in the forum and have removed my posts regarding the subject. Good luck with your attitude.

I am not placing this PM here to indict anyone but It seems like I have pissed off several different members. I don't need this. Goodbye again.

------------------
Geof

[This message has been edited by Geof (edited 10-12-2001).]

Geof,

Don't let that D*ckhead who wrote you the PM get you down. He's well in the minority and obviously
has some serious personal insecurity problems. We the majority will still welcome your insight, knowledge and jest, as it's all we can do for next 5 years or so.

PM Dude, see a shrink, it's healthier than blasting others for their opinions!




------------------
Ernie's Home Theatre (http://www.frii.com/~santella/hometheatre.htm)

Geof,

It was so nice to get your comments again. Do not let one a**hole get you down. We all like your comments.

Even I, who am lucky to be near downtown and get the low power signals have come to the conclusion that our main stream stations do not want to get full power digital on the air.

Please stay and post. :)

Originally posted by Geof
That said, let me refresh everyone's memory - the "Supertower" wasn't denied because of alleged health concerns - it was denied because of other (mostly safety related) concerns.


Right. Setbacks, ice falling from the large tower, danger from tower falling, etc. Whether these concerns were valid or not, Commissioner Sheehan indicated that these were the reasons for denial, not health concerns. In one of the news articles, if I remember, he also indicated that there is no real consideration of moving the existing towers off of Lookout.

I think this led to the current approach, where KRMA submitted a proposal for Mt. Morrisson. I think the hope is that if it is approved, a smaller proposal for the other LCG stations may be possible that has a better chance for approval. If that is the plan, nothing will be done until the KRMA proposal is approved or denied.

So, my question is: Why is JeffCo taking SO LONG with the KRMA Mt. Morrisson proposal? It had none of the problems that were the reasons for denial on Lookout.

Mark

Well guys I am going to stray off topic for a moment....

I have been criticized several times for my posts in this thread. The first occurrence was because the person didn’t like what I had to say and the second occurrence was because the person (a different person) didn’t like how I said it. We (at least some of us) need to chill out a bit. I certainly did not intend to slam (directly or indirectly) the person who left the PM I posted above. Evidently he thought I was being critical of his post, which is not true. Since he deleted his posts I cannot go back and re-read it. I hope I am not coming across as condescending since that is not my intention. I’m an Engineer, not an english major or a diplomat. Unfortunately the internet can be somewhat frustrating when people try to analyze every word rather than the general concept being put forth.

Several members have been with this post since Mark started the thread a long, long, time ago, others have joined at various times including some relatively new posters. It is impossible (for me at least) to keep track of who has read all of the posts in this very long thread. The "reminder" I posted was intended to reestablish the reasons why JeffCo denied the Supertower application, not to demean anyone.

My fear with all of this "bickering" is that it doesn’t help draw other Front Range HDTV enthusiasts into the conversation. Quite the contrary – some lurkers may elect not to post for fear of getting their case jumped. This does us no good because the one thing we really need here is more folks to express their opinion....there is strength in numbers. Stations pay attention to Neilson ratings and several stations lurk in this forum – as do CARE and Pinnacle.

"We" need to encourage "newbie" posts and not discourage them. To this end "we" need to be more tolerant of other posts. One of the things I noticed during my absence is that several new posters entered this thread. I encourage them to continue posting and I encourage lurkers to post as well. In my case if I say something that comes across poorly (or condescending) please don’t assume the worst.

I am not going to quit this thread (again) but then again I have stated my opinions and don’t need to be rehashing that every other day so I won’t be posting as often as I used to.

Mike and Ernie thanks for the kind words.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

Mark, I agree with your point about the LCG waiting for the Morrison issue to be decided before they submit their revised plan. However, they have dragged their feet for almost 2 years now. First by filing a lawsuit they knew had no basis in merit and no chance of winning. This lasted almost a year and during that time they couldn’t even talk to JeffCo, much less submit a revised plan. There was a span of time between the lawsuit being dropped and KRMA filing their Morrison proposal and again nothing happened. I believe this was a contributing factor in KRMA submitting their proposal. Now that this is in progress the LCG is once again silent with the new excuse (real or perceived but nonetheless convenient) that their proposal is contingent upon the KRMA Morrison situation. The KRMA proposal is likely to take several more months before a decision is made and then there will likely be several more months before the LCG submits plan B. It could well be close to 2.5 to 3 years between their JeffCo submittals and I think this is absolutely outrageous - particularly since the FCC is just rubber stamping their extension requests.

Geof

Welcome back. Thanks for reconsidering. :)

Originally posted by Geof

"We" need to encourage "newbie" posts and not discourage them. To this end "we" need to be more tolerant of other posts. One of the things I noticed during my absence is that several new posters entered this thread. I encourage them to continue posting and I encourage lurkers to post as well. In my case if I say something that comes across poorly (or condescending) please donÕt assume the worst.




Folks. I think Geof states something we need to remember here. We are, I think, all interested in the same thing here, HDTV on the front range, we just differ on the ways we think it should or will be done. It is important to ENCOURAGE, not discourage discourse in this thread. I know, for example, that many of my own posts may seem negative or discouraging to others, but it is important that opinions be allowed and expressed. I do have discussions with people behind the scenes, as do others in the thread, and in some cases I (like others) have been asked not to post sources. I do bring up issues and views that may not be popular, but are, in fact, part of the mix in the considerations of the people involved. My intent is to make people aware of opinions involved in the issue, not to discourage.

I have been involved in this thread since it first started (as I recall it really got going last summer when we were organizing letters to the FCC to oppose extensions of licenses), and as Geof stated, much information here has been discussed a long time ago. It is OK to bring things up again, but it should also be OK to refer to topics discussed a long time ago. I can't remember during the entire time this thread has been continued, that posts have gotten personal, or that people have taken to insulting others in public. I see that on other threads and it does get nasty. Yes, some members here have been asked not to post discouraging comments, but I think that issue has been rectified (at least I hope so). Please keep in mind that just because someone disagrees with your opinion, or points to a fact that might contradict you, that does not mean you are not welcome. That is how discussions work. If we all shared the same opinions here, there wouldn't be much point in a discussion, we could all just check in with a roll call every few weeks.

I think it is important to keep this thread alive with discussion and to keep things going here in order to encourage others to join not only the forum, but the HD cause on the front range. Don't kid yourself for a moment. I KNOW for a fact that members of the LCG read this forum. Often information has been released here that cannot be associated with a particular individual or organization for obvious reasons. We also know that the (S)CARE folks are reading this forum. We have also heard that Jeffco commissioners have even read that thread at times. There have been several occasions in the past when LCG members, or (S)CARE folks have joined in the discussion.

The point of my rambling here is that bickering among ourselves only serves to encourage the (S)CARE folks that their opposition is disorganized, and also leaves the LCG members with the impression that there really aren't that many HD viewers out there anyway, and there is not a consensus among the ones who do watch. It plays right in to the hands of those that are either in no hurry or totally oppose HD towers of any kind. Differing opinions keep this forum alive, they do not hurt it.

Let's all step back, take a deeeeep breath, and remember, that we all eventually want HDTV in Denver. Keep the discussions active, and encourage the 'lookers' to read some of the previous discussions and join in the fray. That is the only way we will keep the pressure on to get HD in this area. Trust me, the people involved are also watching our forum. Let's keep the discussions active so that they know we are watching them too! They will only react in our favor when they know there are enough of us demanding HD. If we scare away new members or open discussion, we will leave the impression that we don't care. I believe the one thing we ALL agree on here, is that we do care.

At this point I will turn off my rambling mode, and return to my normal mode of being the 'voice of darkness' of the forum.

Well said John (jm).

Now that this is behind us I request a "call to arms". Please join in with an acknowledgement (and/or your comments) that you're still reading this thread and still interested in seeing a speedy resolution. There have been several notable posters (Jeffden, Doug Talley, mknoebel, JohnJr, Zephyr, Greg T, MR in Denver, etc....) that haven't posted in awhile and I'd like to hear from you all again (along with everyone else I haven't mentioned) and especially from the "lurkers".

I agree with Geof...All of us lurkers need to be accounted for so that we may proceed and maybe, just maybe receive support from our local affiliates to provide stronger signal sources so that we may all enjoy HDTV.:D

I'm still here! I'm glad to see the calls to rally us together. If there are letters to be written, or emails to be sent that could help our cause, I'm in and I know many others would be as well. We all do want the same thing (except for the SCARE folks).

Until then, I'm frustrated in Greeley!!!

-Mike

I'm still here...of course I just posted yesterday, so maybe that's obvious!

I want a speedy solution (and for ExpressVu to support the Dish 6000 8-VSB module so that I can tune them in, but that's another topic!)

I sent an e-mail to James Morgese asking him to update us on Mt. Morrisson, since we haven't heard any update on it for a couple of months. Maybe he will respond to his list of DTV supporters.

Mark

I am also still around, but with basically no new information in quite a while ( at least substantial information ), I have not posted often either except to help someone new with a question. I, for one, have always questioned KCNC's motives and even brought up that point during the Super Bowl when several of us were applauding KCNC for allowing KRMA to broadcast for them.

I have called and also received no response or even somewhat hostile reponses from a station in town ( nameless for now ) when continuing to inquire about HDTV.

I did however speak with a station manager at a charity event recently and was told point blank that he was all for HDTV as soon as they could possibly get up and running. I laughed a little and joked with him that that sounded like a Watergate type of non denial denial and that "as soon as they could" really didn't say anything at all. I asked if he were running for office and he simply excused himself and walked politely away.

I was, in fact, so discouraged as to assume that we would never see full power HD in Denver from all of the stations and have recently started supporting the DISH network plan of putting all the network feeds on the satellite for those markets without access due to their locals and their footdragging. I know this doesn't really suit our needs for free OTA HD, but I truly don't foresee any end to our wait right now.

Jeff

I'm here. I read this a couple times a day trying to keep up on what's going on.

I would love to have a resolution to this on going problem as well.

Thanks
Joe

Just a suggestion to get some enthusiasm going here. I think one area where people here can bring immediate pressure to the local stations is with the KCNC low power transmitter issue. They were 'supposed' to be online last month, and now we have no clue when to expect them to be on the air. I have posted a question to Bob Ross of CBS (NY) to find out if he has any information on why the station has delayed the start up. Feel free to post to the thread, and let Bob know there are many of us waiting. The thread is at

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...&threadid=43819

In addition, I would recommend that everyone on the forum start to 'bombard' KCNC with phone calls as to when they will be on the air. When they tell you they are 'waiting on a flange' (which probably could have been made in a shop in less than a week if that really is the reason), call them back the next day to find out if it arrived. If they say no, call them again the next day. If some the the lurkers will do the same we could get them answering 20-30 phone calls a day which might eventually get their attention. If we can't get 200 people to call, maybe we can get 20 people to call 10 times. Don't stop calling them until the station is on the air.

BTW, I would also recommend that each phone call also include a question as to what their plans for a full power transmitter are and when they expect to be on the air with full power. If they give you some song and dance about Jeffco, ask them when KCNC and the LCG are planning on submitting a plan for a tower, since it is our understanding that they currently do not have any official plans submitted to Jeffco since the original plan last year was rejected. Do not leave the impression that we will be satisfied with a low power signal for more than a few months. If you really have a lot of time, feel free to call KUSA and KMGH with similar questions as often as possible.

These suggestions are, hopefully, not controversial and with any kind of luck we can all agree on doing at least this much.

Just my $0.02, take it or leave it for what it is worth.

I posted another question to Bob Ross in this forum linked to the Programming Forum question made by jm.

I will keep bumping them up to the first page to get Bob Ross' attention.

Hi guys,

I'm here... naked without my Avatar, but here :) I have a whole big long post in my head, but I am just to busy to make it now. But, I did want to stick my head in here and welcome back Geof and JM! Welcome back guys!

-John

I just moved to Boulder and I WANT HDTV OTA NOW! It's ridiculous to think I can't get just about any OTA without cable.

I just moved from a place I could get all OTA in HDTV with rabbit ears. I miss HDTV

-Don

James Morgese e-mailed me about Mt. Morrisson. They have officially applied for consideration at the JeffCo planning commission. They are getting opposition from CARE and some members of the Genessee homeowner's group. The new proposal has two options--one is a 300 ft tower for combined use by KRMA, KUVO, KVOD and some others. The other he called a "sideways tower" that is only 60 ft high, would not have to be lighted, and could be painted earth colors. There is a 40 acre buffer zone of non-inhabited space. The "sideways tower" would be almost impossible to see from a distance or from the Genessee area. Both options would dramatically reduce RF emissions for all areas.

If there are still any CARE lurkers who would be brave enough to consider posting: KRMA is certainly trying everything they can do from a design and RF exposure standpoint. If this proposal goes through, it still represents a major victory for CARE. Why would you oppose something that meets your goals for RF emission reduction and will improve the aesthetic quality of your area as well?

Mark

Some thoughts on KCNC:

I don't have any inside sources like JMartinko, so the following is only my own impression of KCNC's "motivations".

I think KCNC does want to get on the air with HDTV. They are CBS owned & operated, and the CBS is still the biggest promoter of HDTV. I do not think that KCNC would go against their owner and be "anti-HDTV".

However, I also don't think HDTV is their top priority. Issues:

(1) A quick solution is not nearly as important as what KCNC feels is the "right" solution, that is, Lookout (or maybe Morrisson). The quickest solution, after all, would be Squaw Mtn, where no re-zoning is needed. Boulder would be in the dark, at least until repeaters or translators could be installed.

(2) Since advertising revenues are down, that gives them even more reasons to be patient about Lookout. They delay expenditures, and the alternatives to Lookout are all more expensive. But if delaying for cost reasons was their #1 motivation, I don't think they would have pursued the low-power transmitter at all (admittedly not in place yet). They _do_ want to give Denver a look at HDTV, and gain experience with DTV.

This is certainly "stalling" in a way, but I'm not sure I would act any differently if I were GM of the station, especially with the new KRMA proposal now going through the JeffCo process. The fact that they spent $ on a temporary transmitter is an admission that this is still likely to take awhile, unfortunately.

Mark

Hi guys,

In the first step of my posting the longest message ever to this thread <big grin> I submit to ya'll ftp://ftp.computerroom.com/denver_hdtv_tower.zip

With the prior aproval of David and AVS Forum I have consolidated all of the 4 parts of the Denver HDTV Tower thread from 08-00 to present date into a single .txt file.

It is notably (tragically) missing a number of Geof's posts that were not archived. Geof's missing posts would be sometime in the last few months to today, so if while reading the file you find something you can't seem to understand, that may be based on one of his posts, ask him to explain, and I'm sure he will.

The reason I did this is so that we would have one file that we could search back on for historical postings as opposed to searching the current forum and the archives (with all the other threads intertwixed)

-John

PS. Mark... so it was you that started this conundrum?! <big grin>

JohnJR - Thanks for the compilation - I will download it. BTW, I do not have the deleted posts.

Mark - I certainly respect your opinion but I do disagree with it. Consider this: There are approximately 1200 out of 1400 (or so) commercial stations that are supposed to be on the air by 5/02 but still are not. Are they too just trying to find the "right" solution? It certainly looks to me like there is a definite trend here. I agree the economic climate certainly doesn't help and may be a significant factor. In fact the KDVR Chief Engineer told me that was a major factor why KDVR doesn't pass the 16:9 signal when I toured their facilities earlier this year. BUT, he also conceded that there weren't a significant number of viewers at the time to warrant the additional expenditures (keep in mind they'd have to spend far less to do 16:9 than the LCG stations would to build H/DTV facilities). If KDVR doesn't want to spend the money to finish their facilities (partly because of a lack of viewers) it's likely a safe bet the other stations don't want to spend 10 times that amount to build their facilities. I'll also concede that if the Lookout tower was approved KCNC might be on the air. However it was not approved and I think there is quite a bit of evidence that they (along with the other LCG stations - less KRMA) aren't really trying too hard. They could try hard for the "right" solution but they are not. The right solution is not going to come easy, or quick, especially if they don't really try. Lastly, from what I understand CBS was the one doing the arm twisting on KCNC to get a Low Power setup. In all likelihood the Dish deal took a lot of wind out of that sail.

Good to hear from the newcomers and "inactive" posters....

Mark
I think it is safe to say that all of the stations in Denver want to get on the air......eventually. They have been told by the FCC they have to. My problem, along with many here, is that they were supposed to be on the air last May in DTV format. This is not new news to them or anyone in the business. In the top 30 markets in the country, Denver is the only one left not on the air. Other stations have also had to deal with homeowners and NIMBY's and have still gotten on the air.

I know my criticism in a large part comes from the fact that in the original filing for the 'Supertower', the LCG did not even file a complete set of paper work. Part of the reason Jeffco (at the urging of (S)CARE) did not approve the application was (as I recall) that it was not complete with all of the safety analysis. Much of that could have been provided had the stations been diligent.In addition, from what I have seen, the first design wasn't all that great to begin with. They have had nearly 2 years to clean up their act and submit a new application. At this point, it is obvious the members of the LCG intend to wait to see what happens to the KRMA Mt. Morrison application. The question is, why were they so poorly prepared to begin with, and why are they holding off a submittal now? To me, this doesn't sound like someone who 'really wants' to be on the air. There are obvious financial benefits to be gained from not being on the air, and until there are a sufficient number of complaints, in my opinion, they will continue to let it slide. My own opinion is that the 'right solution' you refer to, in their mind, is one that has them on the air in a couple of years when the advertising revenue stream from the HD telecasts will pay for the equipment. That would only be when there are enough viewers to provide some additional advertising revenue. Right now there are not enough viewers.

My own information was that the impetus for the low power station from KCNC did not come from them, and that they were pressured by CBS network. As I understood it, CBS was going to pay for much of the equipment to help them get on the air. I have also heard that for whatever reasons, the Network has changed their mind about paying for the equipment (perhaps due to the DISH feed or perhaps due to the NY WTC tragedy). At the same time, we heard that KCNC was suddenly having trouble getting on the air. Coincidence?????

Several of us were also told by David Lane that they were having trouble getting the switching equipment which would insert the commercials in 4:3, but David had also told us they would simply get on the air and pass the national feed. I haven't been able to pick it up. Then we heard they couldn't get a flange to support the tower. I think if the drawings were available, most of us could take them to a local machine shop and had it built in a week or so if we were motivated. The stories seem to change, but the results still seem to be the same. No KCNC HD in Denver, even low power. I may be one of the few here, but to me a low power signal was fine a year or so ago (like KRMA did) as it showed they were trying. Now it strikes me as a half hearted attempt to get the FCC and some locals off their back as they (KMGH and KCNC) could now claim they are on the air, even though only 20 people can pick it up. KUSA won't even give us the time of day in HD.

I agree that the stations are looking for the 'right solution', but in my mind, the right solution in 2004 or 2005 when we might see it, will be the SAME solution that could have been implemented in May 2001 when it was supposed to be ready. That is why I am not willing to let the stations like KCNC get off the hook with a low power tower, even though I will be glad to see it on the air.

Gee, you can tell I am back writing in the Denver thread, it has been a while since I submitted one of my long winded diatribes.

I just checked OTA signals and still no signal on channel 35 for KCNC-DT.

Originally posted by JMartinko
My problem, along with many here, is that they were supposed to be on the air last May in DTV format.

Wasn't the deadline November 1999 for network affiliates in Denver?

Michael

Was the LCG Supertower planned on Residental zoned land or Ag.

I assume residential since one of the concerns was that if the tower were to topple, it could land on a house.

The KCNC temp low power HDTV application/hearing seemed to indicate the zoning board could not approve a waiver for an antenna in a residential zoned land.

Is this true? Has the LCG picked a new spot? Is the zoning problem minor or real?

Wasn't the deadline November 1999 for network affiliates in Denver?
Yes, that is correct. Markets 1-10 were due by 5/99 and markets 11-30 by 11/99.

The Denver stations will be 2 years late come November and indeed there is absolutely no way in hell they'll be on the air with high power by Nov '02. The best we can expect is '03 but I wouldn't wager a cup of coffee on that.....

------

I don't think the LCG has said where (on Lookout) they will build, or wish to build, a tower. They haven't said much of anything in fact. However, I believe the "supertower" was supposed to be built on land already owned by KCNC so I would guess that is where the tower for the next application would be located. They (KCNC and others) have steadfastly maintained it's gonna be on Lookout or nowhere. In fact I was told - by KCNC - (awhile back) that they would just convert their existing TV facilities to DT facilities before leaving Lookout. They do not believe there is anything that would prohibit that and gee, it's also the cheapest approach.....

Originally posted by Geof

Mark - I certainly respect your opinion but I do disagree with it.

Actually, I read both JMartinko's and your reply, and I don't really find much to disagree with. The Denver channels want Lookout. If they feel that their best chance for getting there will take years, that is the approach they will take. And they delay expenditures that way also. I'm not happy about it either, but I think that LCG believes that they cannot submit a specific proposal until the outcome of the KRMA proposal is known.

What can be done to make it happen faster? Certainly showing demand for DTV to the broadcasters and getting some priority from them is important. Our single best hope right now, though, seems to be a quick approval of the KRMA proposal. The only alternative I see is to push the broadcasters to Squaw or some other less favorable site, and that probably won't go anywhere. (BTW, Squaw is a great site from Fort Collins' standpoint.) Maybe someone else has other ideas or I missed something.

Speaking of KRMA, James Morgese said that those who live in Jefferson County could send supporting letters to the Planning Commission right now to help the cause. (Sorry, I don't have specific contact information.) We'll probably all want to do that for the full commission hearings.

So, JeffCo folks, help us here!

Mark

Writing JeffCo certainly cannot hurt the KRMA proposal and I agree with Mark (and James Morgese) that JeffCo residents might help the cause if they write their Planning Board, and perhaps their County Commissioners. The contact info is:


Jefferson County Planning and Zoning Dept
100 Jefferson County Parkway
Administration Side-Suite 3550
Golden, Colorado 80419-3550

----

The Commissioners are:

----

Michelle Lawrence
County Commissioner,
Chairman
100 Jefferson County Parkway
Golden, CO 80419-5550

----

Patricia B. Holloway,
Chairman pro tem
100 Jefferson County Parkway
Golden, CO 80419-5550

----

Richard M. Sheehan
County Commissioner
100 Jefferson County Parkway
Golden, CO 80419-5550

----

I don't know if it helps if non-JeffCo residents write them but I suspect it would not hurt. However I think we ought to save that salvo until they are getting ready to vote on the final decision.

BTW, Squaw is terrible from my location (extreme SW part of town). My TV doesn't even see enough of a signal to try and lock on Ch 12....

Hi guys,

Another KRMA-DT Heads Up...

Trains of the American West will fed in HD on Saturday, 10/20/01 at 19:00 (MT).
Provided from tape.

Africa, A Special Presentation of "Nature" will be fed in HD on Sunday,
10/21/01 at 18:00 & 21:00 (MT) on DTV2A (RX-IF=1379).

Matisse and Picasso: A Gentle Rivalry will be fed in HD on Sunday, 10/21/01 at
20:30 (MT) on DTV2A
(RX-IF=1379).

Rainier: The Mountain will be fed in HD on Wednesday, 10/24/01 at 20:00 (MT) on
DTV2A (RX-IF=1379).

Please see that each of these programs are broadcast on KRMA DT Ch. 18.

-John

PS. anyone else remember Rannniiiierrrrr Beeeeeeeeeeer :-)

This is the response I got from KUSA--Denver about when they will have HDTV broadcasts. Does not look good. This may repeat some other portion of this thread, but I thought since it was a recent response it was relevant.


Thank you for your note. We are committed to bring HDTV to our viewers. We
will need to build a new transmission facility to accomplish this goal. At
this point are attempts to receive zoning approval has not been successful.
We are working with other local broadcasters to find a solution that will
approved by JEFFCO. It will take about one year to build a new facility once
we have approval. Again, thank you for your note.
-----Original Message-----
From: Currie Gail
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:48 AM
To: Perez Don
Subject: FW: HDTV: when is it going to be available?


pls respond
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 6:32 AM
To: kusa@9news.com
Subject: HDTV: when is it going to be available?


Hello:

Do you have any plans to broadcast in HDTV any time soon?
I recently purchased an HDTV receiver and would love to see some HDTV on
your station.

Dan Leithauser
Thornton


:o

I received a similar response from KUSA Programming when I called and asked why "Crossing Jordan" was not in HDTV.

I also left a news tip for the I-Team to do an investigation of why their station was not broadcasting HDTV. I suggested weekly updates of what Jefferson County is doing.

The sad part about KUSA's attitude is that according to some of the other threads, there is an outside possibility some of the winter Olympics, such as the opening ceremony, and some indoor events (hockey?) may be televised in HD next Feb. It would have been nice to see some of that OTA in Denver. I'll bet you could find a few hockey fans who might be interested in HD. Reports are that after the Olympics, NBC will shift much more of its primetime programming to HD as well. It is interesting that KUSA still advertises that it is Colorado's Leader. I would think KRMA should have that title, especially since the KUSA plan appears to be to sit and wait to see if KRMA can get on the air.

Speaking of hockey, for those with access, the Avs game against Edmonton is in HD tonight on HDNet. Should be great fun to watch.

On another topic, based upon the response to my question in another thread, it appears even CBS NY and Bob Ross have forsaken this area. Has anyone heard any new excuses from KCNC lately (you know, like the dog ate their plans or something)?

:confused:

I think we should mention KMGH as a leader also. They have passed the ABC HDTV content excellently since ABC announced their HDTV commitment. They have been on the air since 99'. I've missed a few HDTV shows on KRMA because they forget to switch to the national feed. I think last weekend KRMA left the local feed on all weekend. I realize that KRMA has shown more of an effort to battle the antennae wars, but they have their flaws too. The unfortunate thing about KMGH is that they have such a week signal. . The last time I talked to Rick Cradock(manager of engineering for KMGH) he said that they were discussing a higher power antennae.
KCNC's engineering manager, David Lanes direct number is 303-830-6426. If we all call, he's got to pick up sooner or later. About a week ago I talked to another engineer. He said that they don't know when it's going to be up. David Lane knows more specifics. If I get through, I'm going to raise the interesting question that someone posted on this forum. "Has KCNC lost interest in HDTV since Dish started carrying the CBS national feed."
KUSA in my opinion is happy that they couldn't get a tower erected on lookout. It gives them a good excuse not spend the extra cash on HDTV. Heck, they might be secretly funding "SCARE"(smile). As other's have said on this forum, I'm counting on getting my NBC HDTV from Colorado Springs.

I agree KMGH was on the air first, but with the power level and location of the tower, I always read that effort to be a case of wanting to have bragging rights as the first on the air (which they will obviously use for the next 50 years) and not a lot of concern about who, if anyone, can see the signal. It is obvious they don't really have much concern about who they service with that signal, but it gets them listed as on the air low power in the FCC books, which also gets the FCC off their back. It strikes me as mostly self serving, and not really done out of public interest like the KRMA tower on the Republic Building. Just my $0.02. It is, I concede, still more effort than we have seen from KCNC and KUSA.

Greg, it's hard for me to put KMGH as a leader. I think there is only a handful of folks that can actually get there signal. There seems to be a few people in Highlands Ranch that must have perfect line of sight and a few folks that are in their neighborhood that get it.

I get FOX and PBS wall to wall with my current set up but I get a big fat 0 for KMGH.

While I'm talking about FOX what aspect ratio is that anyway, 14:9 or something like that? There was a big discussion about that a while back as I remember. Either make it 4:3 or 16:9, unless someone is making a 14:9 TV that I don't know about. This is a pretty stupid decision. I don't even watch because of the aspect ratio. It would be nice to watch the baseball playoffs in 480P but give me a break.

I might consider KMGH a leader if they could put out a signal stronger than what my toaster delivers. It's pretty frustrating, you would think that if they are going to go through all the work to put out HDTV they would want more than 5 people to be able to see it.

O.K., I feel better now.

Later
Joe

I get FOX and PBS wall to wall with my current set up but I get a big fat 0 for KMGH.

DITTO JOEj

I get FOX and PBS wall to wall with my current set up but I get a big fat 0 for KMGH.

DITTO JOEj

I agree with KGMH's lack of power as serious negative. I get KRMA and Fox with a set top antennae. I had to mount a UHF only antennae to get KMGH.
I guess my thinking is; They have chosen to record, edit, and retransmit HDTV programming. I think this is a pretty good commitment. They could upconvert everything, call it digital and the FCC would be completely complacent with their digital conversion. I think their antennae choice was probably a mistake they've had to live with it. They are the only station in Denver that is timeshifting programming, KRMA flips a switch and Fox upconverts everything.
But,... if I wasn't getting the signal. I would not think any of this because I would have never seen the signal. So I understand your points.
Ain't this forum great.

Incidently, David Lane(KCNC) is still not answering his phone. Picket time, anyone wanna join(smile)

If someone does get through to David Lane, go easy on him. I know he really is enthusiastic about getting KCNC on the digital air in any form, and I suspect the problems are beyond his pay grade and control.

I agree, David Lane has done a lot to get KCNC-DT on the air. I do not think he is the problem. Someone is holding him back.

I also received the following from the KUSA I-Tram:

"I understand your frustration with the HDTV situation. It's my understanding that KUSA and other stations have talked with Jefferson County Commissioners about several sites, but there has been no approval yet. Many homeowners in the areas proposed for HDTV towers have complained about obstruction of their views and potential radiation effects. It is a matter of public record with Jeffco, if you want to check it out. ........ Thanks for your e-mail, John Fosholt"

I sent an e-mail from their web site asking why Crossing Jordan was not in HDTV in Denver.

Hi guys,

I am pretty sure that David Lane is the Station Manager at KCNC. IE., the buck stops with him (via corporate). So if you get a hold of him, let him have it <evil grin>.

He was present at the meeting with JeffCO for the low-power antenna on Lookout Mountain, and I agree with others here that he wants to see KCNC broadcasting HD, and is frustrated by (s)CARE and perhaps the money issues that we have discussed.

I have met him a few times, and as ya'll might recall I sell to KCNC and other TV stations around here, and I believe that within all the limits that we have discussed here, he is pushing for CBS OTA HD as best as he can.

I have been planning to go through the compilation of this thread I made and try and post a timeline of events that have transpired... applications submitted, applications denied, stuff like that. I have not had the chance to do that yet however.

My reason for doing that is to try and set straight in my head just what has transpired, what is still on-going and what is stalled (IE, new LCG proposal). And, if possible to try and determine why thinks are that way... like why doesn't LCG have a new proposal before JeffCo? Are they waiting on Morrison and KRMA? Are they doing some homework? Have they flat given up on Lookout?

I know that these things cannot be inferred by looking at a timeline, but a timeline would help in being one part of trying to guess what is going on.

-John

David Layne uses the following title in my email exchanges....

David Layne
Director - Broadcast Operations & Engineering

Unfortuantley I cannot recall the name of the general manager at this time

Your right Geof... I just called. It's a Marv Rockford whom I have never met.

I guess David Layne is just the big fish in my pot. Sorry for the mis-information.

-John

Just a "Heads-Up"...

The Rocky Mountain News is going to have a feature on HDTV in the Mile High Tech section of the paper on Monday.
The teaser is "Price,programming, capacity make HDTV a hard sell"

Some may not be aware of an e-publication called HDTV magazine.

It's HDTV Magazine (http://www.ilovehdtv.com)

Here's an exerpt of a message I sent today:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also want to let you know that you put out an excellent product. Everything is very informative and I read completely on a daily basis.

I just read your last publication concerning the CEA Fall Conference and then I went to your main web page. I started thinking back to when I first subscribed. I actually thought I would receive a tangible publication through the mail (obviously I just learned to read). Nevertheless, think about when you buy a magazine. Especially a specialty magazine like Home Theatre or the such. What are they filled with? Advertisements!

I suggest that our plight to encourage the transition of America to HDTV requires more than just channel listings and a great article every so often. America and your future subscribers need education about what their equipment options are, what programming is available in their area, and so on. As an example, on your main page you have a link called Reviews. It covers the Samsung STB. I remeber when you sent that out in the daily publication a while back. I know that information was extremely helpful to all that read it.

We need help making puchase decisions and that can only come from a resource that can educate us on whats out there. Do more reviews and provide links to other sources that do provide this information.

You might consider on a monthly basis, publishing (e-mail or paper) a "resource catalog" to help bring everyone up to speed so they can make an educated decision to go forward with their HDTV decision.

Thanks for listening,

-------------------------------------------------------------

editorial


Fire risk at TV tower site

Monday, October 22, 2001 - Jefferson County's planning commission rightly took time - two months, in fact - to let citizens voice concerns about proposed television towers atop Eldorado Mountain. The next, and likely final, public hearing is slated for Nov. 7. Eventually, though, the planning board must recommend to the county commissioners whether to grant the zoning change needed for the antennas.

Pinnacle Towers Inc. wants to build three antennas, from 450 to 510 feet high, in northern Jefferson County, just south of Eldorado Canyon State Park. The towers would bring digital television to metro Denver and improve broadcast signals into Boulder. Pinnacle's plan also calls for a private heliport and a 40,000-gallon diesel fuel tank for backup electrical power.

Critics have focused on the specious fear that the towers' radio frequencies would endanger human health. But the real worry, and the true public policy dilemma, involves a familiar hazard that undeniably could threaten human life: wildfire.

Eldorado Mountain sits in the red zone, the broad swath along the Front Range where human habitation intersects with forests, brush and grasslands. The red zone especially vexes Jeffco, where two of Colorado's worst, recent wildfires - the Buffalo Creek and Hi Meadows blazes - occurred.

Now Pinnacle wants to plunk 40,000 gallons of fuel and some expensive communications equipment into that red zone. Protecting either from oncoming flames, especially in fires driven by the foothills' frequent high winds, could unduly burden Jeffco's volunteer firefighters. Indeed, local fire departments question whether the existing, primitive access road would let them even get emergency trucks onto Pinnacle's property.

Most of Pinnacle's site is deemed "moderate" hazard, but its western side is considered "high" hazard.

Pinnacle says the diesel tank would be less of a fire hazard than the propane tank already on the property, which provides backup power to the 162-foot radio tower now on the site. Diesel is less volatile than propane, and the new tank would meet modern safety codes, Pinnacle notes. Moreover, Pinnacle plans to store firefighting equipment on site, install a 30,000-gallon water cistern and implement other safety measures.

Still, the property is zoned agricultural, a designation that would prompt a modest firefighting response. But changing the zoning to industrial, as Pinnacle wants, could in the future require a full-court press from local fire departments.

Given the risks to fire crews and the huge public costs of combating wild blazes, the county might not want to allow significant industrial, commercial or residential building in high-hazard areas, if current zoning doesn't already grant the use by right.

The worries over radio frequency hazards are elusive. But fears about wildfire risks are all too valid.

It has been a while since I posted to the forum. But I have been lurking; the reason I stopped contributing is that, regardless of how much dust we all tried to raise, the powers that guard the HDTV gate in Denver proceed at their own pace.

Even Bob Ross, who was Oh-So-Nice earlier has now stopped answering our posts. Oh, well, I never wanted to see the Monday night CBS lineup in HD anyway. It would be something like the comedian Gallager once said. "Your TV has a 'brightness' control, but no matter how high you turn that sucker, the programs don't get no smarter."

I have invested my cash in PBS, and I am very pleased with the programming and the quality of the HD signal. Maybe if we all sent Marv at Channel 4 a few bucks?

Impossible to get Channel 17 from here even with an 80" outdoor UHF only mounted on the chimney.

PBS, HDNet and the occasional HBOHD feed will have to do for now.

But, I'll continue to hope and to lurk. Again, paraphrasing, "if you put hope in one hand and lurk in the other, guess which one will get you HDTV faster."

Hey Mike (HOT), so what is your trick on getting channel 17?
I have tried several different things, and I even sent the Director of Engineering (KMGH) an email (replied to his line-of-sight email) which was posted in the thread some pages back. So you reckon I need height or should I give up ?(I am not known to do that)

Please advise.

p.s. Me (and everyone else) is getting the KMGH-DT 7-1 channel listing on the APG, where is that coming from?

Does anyone else have any ideas? And no, I already tried a pre-amp.

Originally posted by pookers
Hey Mike (HOT), so what is your trick on getting channel 17?
I have tried several different things, and I even sent the Director of Engineering (KMGH) an email (replied to his line-of-sight email) which was posted in the thread some pages back. So you reckon I need height or should I give up ?(I am not known to do that)

Please advise.

p.s. Me (and everyone else) is getting the KMGH-DT 7-1 channel listing on the APG, where is that coming from?

Does anyone else have any ideas? And no, I already tried a pre-amp.

You might want to wait until all of the leaves are off the trees. My attic antennae has increased 6% since the leaves have fallen. I'd recommend a UHF only antennae, it's the only way I could get KMGH.

WS-55857 Mitsubishi
DTC-100 RCA
Replay TV 60 Hr Panasonic
DVDO Iscan V2

You just flat might be too far away pookers. Hot only lives like a few miles from 7. I get it too, but only marginally sometimes like tonight when it's windy. When it's calm I get about 55-60%. I'm using a big ass Yagi, though I dont have line of sight either. I'm pretty far south and west, Chatfield and Wadsworth, and down in a swail to speak, but still thats undoubtedly closer than you are.

I think the references to it in the APG are coming from the database off the satellite by zipcode.

It can be aggrevating alright.

I cannot get Channel 17, and am only 5 miles (as the crow flies) away, in Southeast Denver. Nearest that I can tell, from looking at an aerial photograph, and USGS Contour map, there is a 14 story apartment building on Colorado Boulevard that is about 1/2 mile away from me that must be blocking the signal. I've tried all sorts of antennas and amp combos, including a 104" UHF only Yagi with pre-amp and with rotator on a 15 foot mast on the roof, and still no luck. I took my STB to a neighbor's house 7 houses to the east, and got 17 with an indoor antenna. URRGGHHH!!!

Very Good news,

I talked To Dave Lane, he's got me so hyped. He said that the hold up is solely based on their vendor's slow equipment rollout. He said that the signal will be on the air by the end of November . It sounds like most of the equipment is in place (transmitter, Fiber Link etc).
He has an HDTV himself, and says he's reminded every time he watches it that he needs to get the KCNC's signal on the air. He sounded very excited about getting DT-35 on the air.
I talked to Rick Cradock at KGMH, I guess they've forgone their discussions for a higher power antennae. So, they are shooting for lookout mountain, good luck on that! I asked them how they switch the signal, apparently their NTSC is pretty much automated, so their engineer gives most of his attention to the HDTV signal. He says that they use a combination server, and tape machine to record the digital signal from the ABC satellite. I thanked him for passing the signals. I also asked him about what happens when we get the NTSC upconvert instead of the HDTV signal(knew the answer, but provocative question). He said that the engineer sometimes fails to flip the switch to return to the HDTV signal. I told him that it happened Sunday night for the first 10 minutes of the Practice. I called the News Tip line and told them, 2 minutes after I told them, the HD signal was on. He didn't indicate a problem with me doing that. So, I guess I'll continue this practice(no pun intended). In their defense, it's only happened once in about 2 months.

Originally posted by Greg T


Very Good news,

I talked To Dave Lane, he's got me so hyped. He said that the hold up is solely based on their vendor's slow equipment rollout. He said that the signal will be on the air by the end of November . It sounds like most of the equipment is in place (transmitter, Fiber Link etc).
He has an HDTV himself, and says he's reminded every time he watches it that he needs to get the KCNC's signal on the air. He sounded very excited about getting DT-35 on the air.


KCNC was supposed to be on the air full power anywhere from 6 to 18 months ago depending upon what you read, and it is "very good news" that they MAY be broadcasting to some of south Denver by late November? I am sure the folks in Boulder and Fort Collins will be thrilled. I appreciate your enthusiasm Greg, thanks for following up, I am sure this will be great for you and some others, but for many in the area this won't mean much. Ran a scan on OTA stations last night and still didn't see any KCNC test signals. I would still like to hear confirmation from Bob Ross or someone other than another engineer and enthusiast like David. I will believe this news when I see the receiver lock.

This is NOT a shot at Greg, but rather at KCNC, so before somebody posts or sends me a private email, I know, I'm the 'voice of darkness' here, so I will crawl back under my rock. Sorry, I just couldn't help myself from letting loose with one more rant. I've read that posting here in the forum is a great way to release one's anger, and I have a LOT of it stored up on this issue.

Originally posted by pookers
Hey Mike (HOT), so what is your trick on getting channel 17?
I have tried several different things, and I even sent the Director of Engineering (KMGH) an email (replied to his line-of-sight email) which was posted in the thread some pages back. So you reckon I need height or should I give up ?(I am not known to do that)

Please advise.

p.s. Me (and everyone else) is getting the KMGH-DT 7-1 channel listing on the APG, where is that coming from?

Does anyone else have any ideas? And no, I already tried a pre-amp.

I only live about 3 miles from Speer & Logan. I am near Florida and Monaco. I have a clear line of sight to their building up Cherry Creek. No big buildings in the way. I use a Channel Master STEALTHTenna and have it on my roof with a Channel Master rotator.

How far are you from the KMGH studio?

Well I [sort of] hope the KCNC news is true. Some folks will be lucky enough to receive the signal and it will be nice for you. It may even entice some folks to buy HDTV equipment and help attract a larger HDTV audience. In my particular situation I hold out no hope of being able to receive the signal so Low Power will do me (and others on this forum) no good. That's fine and I accept that - if and only if - the low power setup doesn't take some of the pressure off of KCNC to get their high power facilities built.

Well I already get CBS HD feeds from Boston, Seattle and NYC, but sure, throw Denver into the mix also. At least that would be geared to our own time zone. :)

Hey I don't see what all the fuss is about -- up here in Brighton I can get Fox DTV with rabbit ears! I'm thrilled :rolleyes:

Originally posted by dr_mal
Hey I don't see what all the fuss is about -- up here in Brighton I can get Fox DTV with rabbit ears! I'm thrilled :rolleyes:

Wow, that is one more over the air digital station than is available in Kabul. :rolleyes: I guess that means Denver has finally hit the big time. Next thing you know we will have enough stations to apply to become a US television market.


Seriously, I don't mean to be negative about the KCNC issue so much, as I (unlike many others) will be able to get the low power feed (since I am able to currently receive KRMA DTS). My concern is that I am convinced that the availability of the low power feed will diminish the pressure on KCNC from the FCC, the forum, etc. to get a full power tower up on Lookout. I will be excited only when I see that KCNC and the LCG have submitted a plan to Jefferson County for a full power digital tower, and will be thrilled when I see the plan has been approved and construction is underway. At the moment, even though I will be able to get the low power feed, I remain convinced that "if and when" KCNC ever gets on the air low power, they (like KMGH) will consider their job complete. To me this is only a partial or cosmetic solution to a problem they should have solved two years ago.

I guess my sarcasm didn't fully come across (first posting in the thread -- I shouldn't expect everyone to understand me right away)

I share the disappointment at least as much as those of you lucky few who can get KMGH or KRMA OTA. In Brighton I can ONLY get FOX who gives me the pleasure of looking at a cropped NTSC picture, which isn't even cropped enough to fill my screen (and yes, I've read the posts explaining their 14:9 "compromise"). I can barely contain my enthusiasm. Until all the locals (or at least one!) is broadcasting true HDTV at full power, I won't be happy either.

I'm holding out hope that maybe Fox will actually convert to HD in January like they say they will. And watching lots of HDnet in the meantime :) And thinking about eVu HD :D

dr_mal

I certainly 'got' your sarcasm, and made a rather lame attempt to continue your tongue in cheek approach with my comparison to another smaller market in the middle east.

It is a serious disgrace that a city the size of Denver which prides itself as a 'home' to many telecommunications companies has only FOX's poor excuse for HD available. Assuming it will take a year from the time of approval for a tower to be built is is safe to say that probably more 100 markets will have HD networks available before Denver. Since Denver is in the top thirty market sizes, that means at least 70 smaller market towns will be watching HD before Denver. Fortunately for some of the folks living on the edge of town that means C. Springs and Cheyenne will be available first. On the bright side though, the (S)CARE folks property values are increasing each day they put off the inevitable, and the local stations like KCNC and KUSA are saving a ton of money at the taxpayers expense. Now that's capitalism!

PS
I was born and raised in Canon City, and the thought that my parents in Canon City will have access to network HD before I do here in the Denver area is mind boggling to me.

I love those opinions.
I agree this is a Band-Aid solution. Albeit, a bandage is better than nothing. Reaching some people in Denver is better than reaching no one in Denver. I would actually celebrate KMGH even if I didn't get the signal. I'd say let's concentrate our anger on the people that have made no efforts to be on the air, KUSA. All of our stations have a perfectly legitimate excuse as far as the FCC is concerned not be be on the air. It's cheaper to send the FCC a letter stating "no status change", than it is to be on the air with DTV.

Can't have everything,....where would you put it.

Greg
I agree the FCC shares a LOT of the blame for letting the networks here slide this long, but I have already written the FCC about that. Can't say I have seen a lot of results. I have run out of places to vent (except of course here in the forum). My soapbox lately has been used to remind people here in town NOT to be satisfied or appeased with the low power tower solution. Keep the pressure on for the real thing or we will never see it.

Hi People, Been busy working a project lately. Glad to see M & G back. Does anyone think we could use the major HDTV equipment suppliers here in Denver to help get word out? Like SoundTrack, BestBuys, Circuit City, etc. I could see it might be seen as a negative sale situation if people found out about problems here in Denver. I have not gone in to any of these stores lately to find out if they'd tell the truth about the OTA situation here? I'm not sure either about how to use them, whether we could get them to give out a flyer or something? We need to find way of building our base of support. Any better Ideas?

Originally posted by JMartinko

I have run out of places to vent (except of course here in the forum). My soapbox lately has been used to remind people here in town NOT to be satisfied or appeased with the low power tower solution. Keep the pressure on for the real thing or we will never see it.

JM,

If you really have run out of places to vent, you could always rattle a few cages at KGWN in Cheyenne for us "Northerners" stuck in no-HD-land!:p

-Mike

Originally posted by Franklin_C
Hi People, Been busy working a project lately. Glad to see M & G back. Does anyone think we could use the major HDTV equipment suppliers here in Denver to help get word out? Like SoundTrack, BestBuys, Circuit City, etc. I could see it might be seen as a negative sale situation if people found out about problems here in Denver. I have not gone in to any of these stores lately to find out if they'd tell the truth about the OTA situation here? I'm not sure either about how to use them, whether we could get them to give out a flyer or something? We need to find way of building our base of support. Any better Ideas?

I like using hardware suppliers to help pressure the locals; not sure how effective it would be. I bought my RCA HD receiver at SoundTrack, but after phoning Direc TV and verifying that HDNet was available in Denver. The salesman almost had me convinced that it was only available in certain cities. His story was that because of limited bandwidth, it wasn't available everywhere. After shooting the gaping holes in that excuse, he just told me to call DirecTV. I used the store courtesy phone to call DirecTV, verified the existence of HDNet nationwide (just like the website says) and bought the receiver. My point to this longwinded story is that the salesmen aren't promising locals that aren't there -- this one at least almost LOST a sale because of lack of content. Maybe if they started telling people why the locals aren't available it would help. <shrug> Still not counting on anything soon.

I would say that most of the sales people I have chatted with recently are not even aware that there is much HD content out there to watch since it is not available OTA here. Most seem to indicate that they think HD in the home is still several years away, and often seem surprised to find out that is only true in Denver Colorado. The general impression most people have in this area is that HD is a 'future technology' which may or may not make it. They assume the rest of the country is as backwards and behind the times as Denver. Obviously a lot of that has to do with the lack of any publicity from the local networks on the unique situation here in town. Most articles in the papers mention the 2006 date for the change over, and a lot of people I talk to assume there will be no HD available till then (which ironically may actually be true in Denver). The stations and the newspapers have been (except for the Daily Camera here in Boulder) pretty lax at indicating that the stations were already required to be on the air in HD in the major cities like Denver. I have not checked any Sears stores on Sat. during the CBS HD football games, has anyone else done that?

Originally posted by JMartinko
I have not checked any Sears stores on Sat. during the CBS HD football games, has anyone else done that?

I went to the Greeley Sears a couple of weeks ago and they didn't have it on. Claimed a "technical issue" and I just shook my head and left it at that. I haven't visited any of the other local Sears, could be something to do this weekend.

My dad (just joined the HD crew with a Pioneer HDTV/Dish 6000 setup!) lives in NE Wisconsin and said that the Green Bay Sears does not show the games (don't even have the HD receiver hooked up), but the Appleton (30 miles south of GB) Sears does show the games each Saturday.

-Mike

Thats right! Nothin but the best in Appleton! ;) I grew up there actually.

Maybe even have to move back come to think of it..I bet they're closer to OTA HD than we are here.

I wonder if the Post/News would consider running a weekly/daily what's on HDTV this week/night schedule, similar but I guess abbreviated from what HDTVGalaxy does.

They could color in all of the network content as "Not Available Over the Air" or "Low Power Broadcast Only" or "Low Power and on a tiny building" and see if that wouldn't get some attention.

Joking a bit of course... but it is content and 1/2 way relative content I would say. It would serve to educate the folks that should know, like Sears, and it may "interest" other folks.

-John

JohnJr
Good luck. I tried about a year ago to get them to do some articles, even sent them some info and websites to get them going. The only paper interested was the Daily Camera in Boulder. It might be worth another shot a year later, as the publicity has been increasing from outside the area. I tried writing a couple of the columnists that do TV and Entertainment and Science, as well as the editors of those sections to get it started when I tried. BTW, I never heard back from any of them

Originally posted by DP1
Thats right! Nothin but the best in Appleton! ;) I grew up there actually.

Maybe even have to move back come to think of it..I bet they're closer to OTA HD than we are here.

Alright! Another transplanted Cheesehead! (Grew up in Algoma)

Sadly, Green Bay (under 100,000 people) is just about ready to get WFRV-HD (5-CBS) on the air, and by the end of the year WBAY-HD (2-ABC) will be ready to go.

So even as "small towns" get HD, we are left with nothing. :mad:

:confused:

-Mike

I agree with JMartinko--
KCNC should be broadcasting in a higher power format. There is very little reason to be excited about poor quality, low power, low coverage broadcasting. A high power broadcast from Republic would help!
I live 15 miles north in Thornton... I cannot pick up the signal. I have the channel indicator, but a big fat zero on signal strength. I am disappointed that corporate ABC (just like CBS) touts their strengths in HDTV, but cannot seem to get the entire METROPOLITAN Denver area in the loop. I have clear views of Lookout, Eldorado and downtown... YET no signal under any circumstances... yet I pick up the FOX digital and PBS HDTV signals very clearly.

dL

The following is a copy of an exchange of e-mails regarding last Monday's News article regarding Denver's HDTV situation. You may not find it to be interesting. Also, if anyone thinks it is not appropriate here, let me know and I'll delete it!

From: "David Warnock" <dave2297@home.com>
To: <business@rockymountainnews.com>
Subject: Steve Caulk and HDTV: Errors and Omissions
Date: Monday, October 22, 2001 10:42 AM

While I found the article in today's News interesting, and I checked twice to see that it was written by one of your staff members. It sounded a lot more like a news service piece. I don't know how anyone writing about HDTV in Denver could leave out the problem the stations are having getting transmitters installed, particularly on Lookout Mountain. (Lockout Mountain?) There will be little HDTV interest in this area until that is solved.

And why pay any attention at all to what AT&T Broadband has to say on the subject? They are much more interested in selling out than they are in anything else -- except maybe getting more subscribers, which would make their selling price higher.

I had looked forward to this article since it was first mentioned in Friday's paper. What a disappointment!

David Warnock
Aurora

Dave,
Thanks for your comments. I'm sorry the story didn't address some of the
issues that you are specifically interested in. I am aware of the conflict
over the placement of towers on Lookout Mountain. I purposely decided to
stay away from the political issues because I felt I had to provide more
focus due to length limitations and limitations of resources. I also felt we
had covered the Lookout Mountain issue pretty thoroughly recently in other
sections of the Rocky Mountain News. Perhaps a short sidebar to complement
my story would not have hurt. Hopefully someone here will dig into that
issue at a later date. Thanks for reading.

Steve Caulk
Rocky Mountain News

I notice that he didn't reply regarding AT&T's disinterest in HDTV.
An oversight or not answered because they are such a big advertiser?

Dave W.

I checked again this morning and still no signal.

Hey there! Glad to see everybody is coming back that left. I have not posted in quite some time, but am still maintaining the email distribution list. We have 114 people subscribed. If there are any new lurkers out there, remember to send me an email (below).

Unfortunately, there has not been much to push out to the group lately. Remember, if you come across a news story or something that is worty of pushing out via email, please let me know by sending me the information. My "job" was to create and maintain the distribution list, and I am relying on most of you that are "in the know" to alert me when something should be pushed via email, rather than on this forum. I always include links back to this forum in my email, to generate discussion.

Once again, glad to see everyone coming back.

Jay

Hi guys,

Another KRMA-DT heads up...

The series Evolution will be fed in HD each night this week, starting tonight
10/29.

Evolution # 101 will be fed in HD on Monday, 10/29 at 16:00 (MT) for 2 hours on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379).

Evolution # 102 & #103 will be fed in HD on Tuesday, 10/30 at 16:00 (MT) on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379).

Evolution # 104 & #105 will be fed in HD on Wednesday, 10/31 at 16:00 (MT) on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379).

Evolution # 106 & # 107 will be fed in HD on Thursday, 11/1 at 16:00 (MT) on
DT2A (RX-IF=1379).

Please see that they are broadcast on KRMA DT.
Channel 18.

-John

Hi... one more, this one sounds (pun intended) great!

The program Newport Jazz Festival 2001 will be fed in HD on Monday, 11/5 at
18:00 (MT) and 21:00 (MT) on DT2A (RX-IF=1379).

Repeating:

Thursday, 11/8 at 18:00 (MT) & 21:00 (MT)
Friday, 11/9 at 18:00 (MT) & 21:00 (MT)
Sunday, 11/11 at 17:00 (MT) & 20:00 (MT)

Please see that it is broadcast on KRMA DT Ch. 18.

-John

Hi all,

I have posted a poll question about the Pinnacle application for El Dorado Mountain in a new thread. Please take a second and read/answer it. Inquiring minds want to know <grin>

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89021

-John

Note and reply I got from 9News. I sent the e-mail very late Saturday night and got a reply first thing this (Monday) morning. If nothing else, the quick response was nice. (BTW, from reading this thread I knew the answer, just wanted to see what their reponse would be to a "newbie".)

-----Original Message-----
From: David Maloney [mailto:dmaloneysprint@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:36 AM
To: kusa@9news.com
Subject: Crossing Jordan HDTV?


Hello,

I was watching "Crossing Jordan" and was pleased to see the "Simulcast in
HDTV" at the bottom of the screen. I can't seem to pick up KUSA during that
time, though, with my HD receiver and antenna. Where should I be pointing
my antenna? I live in Brighton.

Thanks,

-David

-----Original Message-----
From: Currie Gail
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 8:35 AM
To: Perez Don
Subject: FW: Crossing Jordan HDTV?


pls respond

--------------------------
From: Perez Don [mailto:don.perez@9news.com]
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 9:02 AM
To: 'dmaloneysprint@earthlink.net'
Cc: PF [mailto:PF2@9news.com]
Subject: FW: Crossing Jordan HDTV?


Thank you for your note. Unfortunately, at this time we are not able to
transmit HDTV programming. A zoning change to allow us to build a common
transmit facility with a number of other broadcasters was turned down by
Jefferson County. We are working on a new plan that will be submitted to the
county in the near future. We are committed to bring HDTV programming to our
viewers once this issue can be resolved. Again, thank you for your note.

I'd be interested in hearing KUSA's definition of near future.....


jm,
The more I think about your supposition that the local stations may elect to move their analog facilities to Eldorado and convert their Lookout facilities to digital the more I think this might just happen (assuming Eldorado is approved). One of the sticking points on Eldorado is the rent stations would have to pay to Pinnacle. If they build their digital facilities there they'd pay rent forever but if they built/moved their analog facilities there the rent would eventually end (in 2006 - right , hah...). Secondly, this would be a way of "putting it to" (S)CARE because they'd remain on Lookout for the foreseeable future (I cannot imagine the stations letting (S)CARE win and kick them off Lookout - too much ego damage with that scenario). I doubt that JeffCo or (S)CARE could stop the stations from modifying their existing Lookout facilities to broadcast digital in lieu of NTSC. The scenario would likely be the cheapest and quickest solution to the problem that currently exists although it wouldn't surprise me if they take one more run at getting approval for digital facilities on Lookout. Meanwhile my biggest fear is that the Low Power setup will take some of the pressure off to push for the high power solution.....

Geof,

They are already so darn late... I don't think there can be a lessining of pressure. The FCC has been lax so far... question is will they tighten up?

re: lookout, I don't think it's so much a loss of face issue, the TV stations will do what is best for themselves, regardless of face. If they can get online at El Dorado, Analog or Digital, it doubles there options, for as you say a monthly price.

What will happen in 2006 is speculation that you or I probably haven't imagined yet.

-John

1) The FCC isn't going to "toughen up" on the stations, in fact they're likely going to forgive the stations for being late...See this (http://www.tvinsite.com/broadcastingcable/index.asp?layout=story_stocks&articleid=CA179620&display=sectionStory&verticalid=311&industry=Technology&pubdate=10/29/2001&STT=000).

2) If a station is broadcasting low power (using an STA) the FCC includes them in the list of currently broadcasting H/DTV stations. Since that is the case it seems quite likely that low power gets the FCC monkey off of their backs (if they were even there to begin with).

3) IMO you're dead wrong about face saving. I am of the impression (thru various conversations) the stations absolutely detest the whole Lookout situation and the (S)CARE group. They will fight for many years before conceding defeat and moving to Eldorado and paying rent forever. In fact I have been told by 2 stations that they will convert their existing Lookout NSTC facilities to digital before moving anywhere. That scenario would mean they'd be broadcasting low power DT (if at all) till 2006 (or whenever) and then perform the conversion. Likewise, I've been told if the FCC threatens to yank one of the spectrums that that will give up their current NTSC spectrum and change frequencies to their new DT assignments. If you think the stations aren't motivated by beating (S)CARE, or keeping their rent free facilities you are sadly mistaken.

My friend here at work has GPS softawre for my location, and I have found a way to get channel 17. Looks like my UHF antenna has to be around 100 ft or so...maybe I can mount it to one of my trees...LOL

Dear Sir,

KMGH broadcasts a low power digital signal from a temporary location atop
our building at Speer and Lincoln Streets.

The information you reference is from our original application for a digital
transmitter. Lookout Mountain is the preferred location to broadcast from.
You may know that there have been issues with Jefferson County and
Broadcasters who want to locate their digital transmitters atop Lookout
mountain. We are presently working through these and plan to go back to the
county with a modified application in the near future.

Thanks for your interest.

Rick Craddock
Director of Engineering
KMGH - TV
303-832-0180


Subject: TheDenverChannel Feedback



EMAIL SUBJECT:
TheDenverChannel.com - Website Feedback

MESSAGE:
What is your power output for your digital xmitter, and
tower height? FCC site shows it on Lookout, which it is not. Trying to
receive channel 17, but all attempts so far have been unsuccessful. LAT and
longitude of your station would be most helpful, please advise. Thanx !

In fact I have been told by 2 stations that they will convert their existing Lookout NTSC facilities to digital before moving anywhere. That scenario would mean they'd be broadcasting low power DT (if at all) till 2006 (or whenever) and then perform the conversion.

Bingo! Geof has hit the point right there. It's looks like from the lack of serious interest (i.e. evasive emails, no returned calls etc.) by the stations, that we're gonna' be low/no power 'till 2006 and the 'big switch'. I think we all better let this sink-in... 1) They ain't gonna' pay rent to nobody. And, 2) They ain't gonna' pay the cost to power a DTV X-mitter if they aren't forced to by the FCC. Money Talks... Quality Walks!

So, all we have left to hope for is... maybe KUSA will throw a Rat-shack DTV X-mitter on their bell tower so the bums on Speer can watch Leno.

You guys appear headed down the right (albeit pessimistic) path. KUSA is the best, and most extreme example of the local stations attitudes. They basically say the will do NOTHING until or unless they are granted permission to use the Lookout Mountain location for their facilities, the public be damned.

I think the other stations are in much the same boat to various degrees. KMGH invested in the low power transmitter for their roof, and will not invest another dime to increase power or change the location.

KCNC was willing to step up like KRMA and go low power from the Republic Building only because CBS had so much HD they were afraid of the public reaction, and more importantly, CBS network was (as I understand) originally forcing them to do something and also willing to pay for much of it. Since CBS went to DISH, they apparently backed of the financial assistance part (I never did get a confirmation on this from Bob Ross in my other thread), and we all can see the results on Ch 35 on our receivers.

KMGH appears willing to 'ride it out' like KUSA, since the FCC has them listed as 'on the air low power', even though only three people outside the control room can see their signal. KUSA is really off the hook, since until NBC starts televising shows other than Leno in HD, they figure no one cares anyway. That may change next winter if some of the Olympics are telecast in HD, but then they can just point to Jeffco and Lookout and say its not their fault.

In the meantime, they all save a ton of money on equipment and production costs, and since Denver has no metropolitan OTA HD available, they all can take comfort in the fact that people in this area can't miss what they can't see. According to an article I saw posted in another thread at

http://www.tvinsite.com/broadcastingcable/index.asp?layout=story_stocks&articleid=CA179620&display=sectionStory&verticalid=311&industry=Technology&pubdate=10/29/2001&STT=000

it sounds like the pro-business administration at the FCC is going to put even less pressure on the stations to do anything as well. Note that the article states that the top thirty markets were supposed to be on the air by November 1999. Anyone here think we will make that deadline? Do you think the FCC will pressure the locals to do anything now that they are obviously late?

In addition, since none of the local media (newspapers or broadcast) are covering the issue, the stations all get a free ride at the moment. In the meantime, none of them seem to mind if we have to spend thousands of dollars on extra HD receivers, subscriptions and satellite dishes in order to watch what the local networks should be providing us for free. I wish I could make a legal claim of some kind to try to recover that money. At least that might get their attention. Anyone know a good 'class action' lawyer? The arrogance of all of these stations is enough to make me ill.

It is now November 1, 2001. There is still no signal on KCNC-DT Channel 35 in Denver. Well we have thirty days until the end of the month and the expected operation of low power CBS.

I wonder if it will happen?