I previously reported that I was unable to get another loader to operate in the D1. I decided to look at that issue again and obtained two loader units. A Sony and Lg (apparently made by Hitachi). A Pioneer will also be added to the list.
Again I was not able to get past a "2" count with the new loaders and then realized that the system is Region sensitive, because the D1 would play "All Region" disks. I placed the loaders in a computer and initialized them to Region 1, and they all operated in the D1.
My purpose for these test is to try and determine if a replacement loader will solve the various lockup, skipping, etc. problems.
I have run computer benchmark tests on all the loaders, including the D1 (Fuss Audio) loader.
I have only one DVD that will usually (about 25% of the time) cause a skipping problem, the remainder may hangup 2% of the time in the original D1 configuration.
I have NOT come up with anything conclusive yet due to a lack of time. I did verify that the Fuss Audio loader is VERY SLOW to seek a track compared to the other loaders.
I will update this thread when I have some results.....How many times can I watch the same material:(

John

John,
Keep us up-to-date on this! This may help out the few who are having problems with some players.

There's been some posts lately about cleaning the laser lens and that's solved the problem also. Bravo may have gotten some dirty drives from their manufacturer.

Hi John,

Your efforts are really appreciated I would love to know that in the eventuality of a loader failure. I could substitute it for another. Heck if you can get any name brand loader (Pioneer, Hitachi, Sony) working in this unit you may even have the ability to add some extened life to what is looking more and more like am awesome deal. Just the idea of replacing the only moving part in the unit provides un-measurable value should this piece die.

Most would just toss the unit and cut their losses. This is worth exploring.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers,

Requis

John,

Your efforts are much appreciated. Please do keep us informed of your research and results. Thanks.

My objective to try other Loaders for the Bravo D1 was the following:
1. Can other loaders (Std. Computer IDE interface) work in the D1.
2. What is the comparative benchmark Electrical/mechanical characteristics of the Loaders.
3. Will a replacement Loader solve the D1 apparent "hang-ups".
The compatibility issue for all the formats which can be used on the D1 or the Mechanical Interface was NOT addressed.

The Loaders utilized are:
a. The original D1 is a Fuss Audio #DV9929B, F/W Rev. ?
b. LG Electronics (Hitachi) STDVD-ROM #GDR-8161B, F/W Rev. 0101, $40.
c. Sony DVD-ROM #DDU1621, F/W Rev. S3.3, $70.
d. Pioneer DVD-ROM #DVD-120S (Slot loader), F/W Rev. 1.01, $70.
e. Lite-On JLMS XJ-HD166S, F/W Rev. DS14, $42.
f. Toshiba DVD-ROM SD-1712, F/W Rev. 1004, $43.

A standard computer IDE Loader can be used in the D1 player, however the Loader must first be installed in a computer to set the DVD Region 1, or the Loader will not play anything but "All Region" DVD's.

The Loaders (including the Fuss Audio) were benchmark tested on an older 1GHz, Pentium III. The relevant test results are as follows:
_____________________Fuss Audio(D1)__LG Elect.__Sony____Pioneer_____Lite-On_____Toshiba
Max Transfer Rate:________1.79X_________8X______5.5X_____8.2X______7.8X__ ______4.2X
Random Seek Time:________560ms________117ms___110ms ___82ms______86ms_______----
1/3 stroke Seek Time:______820ms________111ms___103ms ___92ms______96ms_______----
Full stroke Seek Time:______1187ms_______180ms___167ms ___162ms_____211ms______----
Layer Change Time:________100ms________860ms___46ms_____79ms _____93ms_______100ms

The "real world" testing of the Loaders in the D1 was a challenge as I only have one DVD movie that would give about a 20% failure of the original D1. I did audition additional DVD's that I have had some problems with the original D1 (batch 1 &2) configuration.
I tested the Loaders in the D1 AND IN THE COMPUTER, to rule out a true Loader Failure.

At this point I must state that some of the start problems of my present D1 did clear up after cleaning the D1 (Fuss Audio) optics.

The following are the limited short testing results:

Fuss Audio: 5% lockup at start of (20% failure DVD) disk , 0% in computer. No additional failures.

LG Elect.: 80% lockup at start of (20% failure DVD) disk, 0% in computer. No additional failures.

Sony: 0% failures, D1 or computer. Will not load Firmware.

Pioneer: 0% lockup at start of (20% failure DVD) disk, however testing for Layer Change caused the D1 to skip to the next chapter(Brandon B. observed same with non Slot Loader), but at fast forward it DID NOT skip (other Loaders were fine). There were NO failures in the computer.

Lite-On: Tested @ later date, 5% lockup at start of (20% failure DVD) disk, 0% in computer. No additional failures. Unit can have Hi RPM noise. Will load Firmware.

Toshiba: Tested @ later date, 0% failures, D1 or computer. Will load Firmware. Most responsive to D1 processor (Loading, No CD, etc) commands.

One observation was that the time it would take to start a movie was significantly shorter with any of the new Loaders, because the search pattern for files prior to a DVD starting is influenced by the Seek Time (which is very high for the D1 Loader), assembling data prior to the start of the DVD. The thruput might also be a factor. A test of loading a disk with about 300jpeg images resulted in about 1/3 the load time with all the new Loaders.

Loader Power Requirements: the Fuss Audio requires 17 watts, while the other units required an average of 24 watts. This could be a problem as I did not go into the an analysis of the D1's Power Supply output capability. It obviously did provide the required power to conduct the testing, for the short term.

The Bottom Line: The Toshiba (loads Firmware) & Sony (Does not load Firmware) was the only Loader that did not seem to have a problem (with my limited testing) in the D1. Because there were NO failures when using the Computer with any Loaders, one could conclude that there may be a problem with COMPATIBILITY of the Loader (including the Fuss Audio) and the D1 processor or the Firmware.

Obviously this is just my opinion.:D

John

Great work, John.

I wonder if the results would be comparable in the Momitsu V880.
Did the Bravo remote control operate the player properly with each loader?

Noel

Noel ..........the Bravo remote worked fine. I do not know if the Momitsu V880 would react the same as they are using different Firmware (or perhaps partially different).
At this time I am planning on keeping the Sony Loader for the D1 and will try additional longer testing with it and see if I can get any failures. If not I will see if I can modify it mechanically to fit into the D1.
I wished the Pioneer Slot Loader would of worked, then I would not have to deal with the drawer mechanical fit.:(

John

Wow John. Thanks so much for this experiment. This gives me some hope.

I've just been waiting for you guys who are way smarter than me to come up with "mods" to this player. My gut tells me that people ought to be able to start out with this player, replace the parts where Bravo cut corners to keep the costs low, and still end up with a kickin' player at a reasonable price.

I'm going to wait a little while for longer tests by you (not tests, but just more experience) to hear how it continues. But, this sounds promising. I really appreciate your insights.

John,

Excellent work! What is involved in setting the Region 1 settings in the PC? I didn't know drives have memory to remember such things?

OT: Jason, Nice job on the theatre!

Ernie..............The DVD Loaders used in PC computers are programed for any Region by inserting a DVD from that Region (in this case 1) and playing it for a moment. Then it is locked at that Region, unless you insert another Region disk. You are normally allowed to change the Region a total of 5 times, then it will lock permanently at the fifth change. This of course does not include any hacks to allow all Regions.

John

You did mention trying a new un-regionalized drive, but did you try to initilize a drive for region 2? I'm sure there are many who would love to have a D1 outside of USA.

I only have region 1 disks. I do not know if the D1 strictly relies on the Loader for Region control, or they may have a redundant monitor in the processor board.

John

Do you have a drive hanging around (like the Pioneer 106s) that has hackable firmware so that it could be region-free and then install it in the Bravo? Just a thought.

Jim

I emailed V Inc a while back and was talking about some of my anxiety about this product due to the comments on this forum. They basically told me they were looking into replacing the loader on the D1. This should happen in a month or two it sounded like. Based on this research it sounds like they will eliminate these issues if they pick the right loader. That is good news.

Jim.............I have installed the Sony Loader for extended testing. If the longterm testing is successful (so far it is), I will look into your suggestion.

John

I just ordered the Sony DVD drive. I figure I can use it in my computer if it doesn't improve things with my D1. However, based on John's groundbreaking experience, I'm optimistic that it will make living with the D1 much more pleasant from a UI point of view. I probably won't get it installed into the D1 until early next week. I'll report back with my experience. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing John's extended use reports.

Ooh, a side business modding D1's!

BB

Jason..........Don't forget that that none of the Loaders are a "Drop-in" mechanical replacement. That was not addressed in the study.
By the way, you do have an impressive Home Theater setup!

John

Originally posted by jrannison
Jason..........Don't forget that that none of the Loaders are a "Drop-in" mechanical replacement. That was not addressed in the study.
By the way, you do have an impressive Home Theater setup!

Thanks on the HT.

I didn't expect that it would be so simple as, say, putting it into a computer. I hope I'm up to the task. I might be PM'ing you when I get stuck -- but I'll try not to be a burden. If we can get it to work, I'll try to post a protocol somewhere.

How close of a fit is the computer drives compared to the D1 loader? Could you post some pictures perhaps?

Thanks,
Sonny

The mounting footprint of the Fuss Audio is NOT the standard computer CD/DVD mounting hole locations. I have not come up with a mounting method, and there are other considerations...The Tray Face, the opening dimensions, etc.
I will shoot a few photos when I get something going.

One important point is that I am sure that V,Inc. will not warranty any unit that has been disassembled, let alone modified.

John

I too just placed an order for a DVD ROM drive. However, instead of opting for the Sony DDU1621 (which would've been a safe and prudent move), I ordered a LiteOn DVD ROM drive XJ-HD166-Black.

The rationale behind this rash decision was that Sony drives use the same hardware as Lite Ons, but, Lite Ons have better firmware on them. I did not make this up. This was distilled from reading numerous posts on cdfreaks.com and related sites. This drive supposedly is one of the more forgiving DVD ROM readers around. The fact that the faceplate is black doesn't hurt either. The retail boxed version of this drive is available from Dell for $41.

Should be getting the drive in a week or so. Shall experiment with it and hopefully, I'll be able to contribute something to this thread.

In the meantime, if anybody else has tried this drive and had terrible results, please let me know and I'll abort the order.

-MediocreFred.

Just an update.....I tried to load the Firmware update from V,inc. for the D1 and it would NOT load with the Sony Loader. Had to use the original Fuss Audio.

John

Tried this last night, but when the D1 got to the point of displaying "loading", after about a minute it brought up an orange red background screen declaring no media files existed on the disk. Subsequent tries yielded the same thing. CD is definitely burned in ISO format, but am thinking it's a problem with the disk.

BB

Brandon............I was able to do the Firmware update with the original Loader, that was no problem.
If you get the orange/red screen while trying to load the new Firmware, you did not hold the STOP button while turning the Power Button ON.

I got into the correct startup with the Sony Loader, but it went to 'Loading' and nothing else happened.
The disk is suppose to be in ISO format, which it is.

John

Brandon,

If you're successful at updating the firmware, please let me know which custom setting looks best with the PLV-70. Thanks.

John -

I did hold the stop button, but I may have burned the disk incorrectly (files s. disk image). Did it in OS X, which supposedly burns ISO, but I burned another copy today in Win2000 and will try that tonight.

Manendra, to be sure, I will post all results. I will not have time to do analytical viewing until this weekend though, so no holding your breath.

BB

What do you mean "no time" BB ? What's more important, some silly job or doing all the work your friends want done now ? Better get your priorities straight.

Ain't the job. It's this short little guy who looks like me that scuttles around the house.

BB

I shall call him mini-me.

Brandon,
If you haven't figured it out already, the firmware "file" is an ISO filesystem
image file. You just have to "copy" it to a CD vs creating an ISO
filesystem on the CD with the firmware file in it. The FAQ left
it ambiguous.

larry

Thanks. I had done that the second time. Couldn't do that in OS X for some reason. Burned one on a PC instead.

Speaking of which:

Jim Noyd, you should have them clarify that in the firmware flash instructions.

BB

Thank goodness there were really only two choices. :)

larry

Like I said earlier, here is my followup.

I ordered the LiteOn DVD player XJHD-166 from Dell. Received it on Thursday. Replaced the FUSS loader with the LiteOn and was able to play over 20 different DVDs (18 of them scratched and oily ones from Blockbuster) with not a single lockup!

The main problem with my FUSS loader was that most of my DVDs just wouldn't load at all - even after periodic restarts of the player. I'd tried lens cleaners, canned air and praying - nothing worked. With the LiteOn drive, every single DVD plays like a charm - with no loading delay at all - the D1's display shows "LOADING" for about two seconds tops.

Its really exciting to be able to plop in any dvd and not have to watch the D1's display with bated breath - will it load or won't it... Over the weekend I've gotten so used to the LiteOn that I just plop a DVD in and KNOW that it'll play - just like my trusty (albeit cr@ppy) Sony interlaced DVD player.

Here's the icing. I was even able to upgrade the firmware using the LiteOn drive - something the op had been unable to do with the Sony drive.

For the record, I use an HT 1000 and ended up going back to 720p, since, the 1024x768 resolution, despite being the pj's default resolution, yields a 4:3 image and I have a 16:9 screen.

Will be glad to provide any more information - please let me know.

Thanks to the op for starting this thread and for posting the initial results.

-MediocreFred.

MediocreFred, great info. Thanks. Were there any mechanical changes that had to be made to the D1 or the loader to make it work/fit, or was it just a drop in operation? How bout the power issue, do you think there are any long term concerns about the draw of the Liteon?

Any specific instructions that will make the replacement process go more smoothly?

Thanks again, and to all who've contributed to this thread.
Marc

-MediocreFred:

It's great to see your results!!!!!!! In particular that you could load the Firmware update. I am going to look into your player.

I did monitor the ACTUAL power utilized (Not the rating on the nameplate) and the Sony was hardly different than the Fuss Audio, and the power consumed was not anywhere near the nameplate rating. So at this time it "appears" the power consumption difference should not be a problem.

John

Originally posted by marcInNH
MediocreFred, great info. Thanks. Were there any mechanical changes that had to be made to the D1 or the loader to make it work/fit, or was it just a drop in operation? How bout the power issue, do you think there are any long term concerns about the draw of the Liteon?

Any specific instructions that will make the replacement process go more smoothly?

Thanks again, and to all who've contributed to this thread.
Marc

Marc,

The op was correct in stating that the FUSS loader has a very non-standard mounting system. Regardless, I noticed that once the FUSS loader was removed, the base of the case has four raised surfaces (at the four corners) and the LiteOn sits perfectly on them. However, since I cannot screw the LiteOn in, I'll probably stick four bits of velcro at the four corners and that should keep the drive in place. (Incidentally, I use Velcro to mount my Da-Lite PermWall screen onto slotted railings - since, I didn't want to permanantly mount the screen to the wall with no option of even slight adjustments)

That said, there is one problem that I have yet to deal with. The face plate of the loader tray (the thinggy that slides out when you open the drive) is a little too wide (well, high, actually) for the opening in the case. It does look like the face plate of the tray is detachable and so, I might be able to make it fit. I was hoping that it would be a better fit, since, the LiteOn's bezel (front) is black and would've matched the D1's face plate very nicely.

For the time being, I've closed the D1's case and have kept the LiteOn on top of the case. The IDE cable is long enough for this; however, I had to extend the drive's power suppy cord (it's a standard 4-wire computer power supply connector cable and I had a few of those laying around). My D1 is on a shelf in a closet with almost no chance of being mechanically disturbed - so, I guess this should hold for a while.

The cool thing is that the D1's controls (faceplate and remote) work just fine to control all operations of the drive - such as open, play, etc.

Regarding power consumption, I don't know if there will be a problem. I've watched about 10 full length movies in the last three days and have also done a whole lot of chapter skipping, forwarding, rewinding (at different speeds) and haven't seen any problems. I guess my thinking is that since it is a standard computer power supply cable and a standard IDE cable, it should be able to support any standard DVD IDE drive and the FUSS just happens to have a lower power requirement. I could be wrong about this though. <shrug>.

The whole replacement task took me about 15 minutes. I've spent way more than that with pretty much every DVD (on the FUSS loader) hoping that it would load and play.

Dell has a really good price on the retail boxed version of the LiteOn drive (black bezel). Take a look at the forums on cdfreaks.com for more info regarding this drive.

-MediocreFred.

Much thanks for the info, MF... Contemplating order now (even in advance of Bravo D1 order)... {chuckle} ;)


Marc

I was able to remove the front part of the Fuss Audio tray that opens (It snaps in place, remove the adhesive in the corners) and removed the Sony "front Part" and would you believe they are interchangeable!!!!:D
Perhaps the Loader you ordered (I just ordered one from Dell) is the same as the Fuss Audio also.
When you mount the NEW loader as you noted, you will need to use a ".050" shim under the new loader and the tray will line up with the D1 opening, and you will have to "shave" the Ears that are designed to allow the disks to play in a vertical position. With the new Loader pushed up the front panel PC Board, the tray will not come all the way to the Front Panel, but you can still place the DVD to be played without any problem.

I did not publish all this because of the problem with the Sony not loading the Firmware, so I had second thoughts about committing to the Sony unit.

John

MediocreFred,

Great info. Thanks for the instructions. Shall be looking into buying this loader.

Well, this is a somewhat roundabout story, but I've gotten a Toshiba SD-M1502 DVD Drive (16X DVD, 48X CD, black faceplate) working with the Bravo as well.

As some of you may know, I've been mucking about with the Bravo's firmware. Well, I managed to make a repacked firmware that used the Bravo's firmware loader to load the Momitsu V880's main file system (along with the Bravo's own bootloader, just in case) onto the Bravo (just to see what all would happen). Well, being that the V880's romfs is larger than the Bravo's, the firmware loader didn't quite know what to do when it hit the extra bytes, and crashed. I now had a Bravo with (most) of the Momitsu firmware on it, problem being that 1) it didn't work all that well with the Momitsu firmware and 2) the Momitsu uses different signals for keypresses, so I couldn't open up the Fuss to reflash with the good 1.0.0.5 Bravo firmware. Having wanted to try my Toshiba SD-M1502 in the Bravo anyway, I put the firmware CD in it, pulled it from my computer, and put it in the Bravo.

The result? Going through the firmware load sequence, the Toshiba passed with flying colors (and was much faster than the Fuss, I might add). After fixing the firmware, I restarted and put in a movie. It still worked, much to my surprise. The real reason for my surprise being, the SD-M1502 has region-free firmware loaded onto it, and should report all discs as R0 to the Bravo, meaning it can be region-freed without accessing the service menu to set the player to R0 in software (I can't test this yet, as all my discs are R1/R0, but I think I'll be ordering the superior R3 Army of Darkness to test this ;)). The Toshiba's tray faceplate just barely doesn't fit through the Fuss opening, but I think jrannison's "remove the front of the Fuss" method will probably be the most elegant method anyway. Overall, movies play fine (so far, then again I didn't have lockups with the Fuss), and CD-R's that the Fuss wouldn't read at all work fine with the Toshiba.

Much thanks to you guys too, John and Deathwind. Deathwind, looking forward to hearing what happens with the stability of the Toshiba loader configuration... I wonder if the physical profile of the Toshiba drive will make it easier to replace the FUSS, as opposed to the Liteon...? Have you played with this yet, and if so is there any 'shaving' of the ears necessary or other mods need to properly fit the Toshiba unit in the D1 case?

Kudos again, and thanks guys...

Marc

Well, trying John's method, I removed the front part of the Fuss tray, and the tray faceplate of my Toshiba, and the Fuss front fits it perfectly. I've now set the Toshiba down in the Bravo, with the tray going through the Fuss opening, and it works perfectly and looks like it came from the factory. No shaving of the tray or shims were neccessary to get it to line up, but I'll probably be doing something to fix the Toshiba into position. The only thing is, the actual tray itself on the Toshiba is white, just the faceplate comes black, and I don't know if any of the other non-stock loaders mentioned on this thread have all-black trays or not (the white tray is fine with me). Basically, any DVD drive, black faceplate or not, that you can get the Fuss front onto, should look fine in the Bravo, as all you'll see is the Fuss front and the tray itself when the loader is open. I doubt that any drive will look very good in it without swapping the Fuss front onto it, as it would be recessed pretty deep into the Bravo. Basically, the Fuss front is about 0.5"+ thick, where normal tray fronts aren't very thick at all. I'll see if I can't get some good pictures up of how the Toshiba looks inside the Bravo.

Now all I'd like to do is get a Female DVI connector (http://www.connectworld.net/iec/dv29fs.html), put it in the back of the Bravo, and wire it up to the DVI-out of the EM8500 so I can have a passive DVI passthrough port :D. </dreaming> :( ;)

Here's some pictures of the Toshiba SD-M1502 with the Fuss tray face inside the Bravo:
Tray closed (http://www.duke.edu/~java32/bravo/MVC-004X.JPG)
Tray closed - close up (http://www.duke.edu/~java32/bravo/MVC-007X.JPG)
Tray open (http://www.duke.edu/~java32/bravo/MVC-005X.JPG)
The magical inner workings (http://www.duke.edu/~java32/bravo/MVC-006X.JPG)

Just wanted to say thanks to all of you that are testing and solving these loader problems. I'll leave some feedback when I swap mine...

This is what makes this forum so great. Excellent work everyone!

The only way I could get the Sony to get the drawer parallel to the Front Panel (mine looks just like your photos, Deathwind) is to remove the front panel of the Loader, remove the audio level control, and perhaps the Eject button. I decided that was a real pain (for now!). I might try that when I get the next loader.

John

Can anyone tell me if the Momitsu V880 uses the same Fuss loader as the Bravo D1? Does it suffer from the same lockup problems as the D1?

Cheers,
Andy.

WOW Great post! - Deathwind, does this mean that the player is also region free after this Mod?

Fabulous info. Deathwind, 2 more questions...

1.) Any more thoughts on stability since your last commentary about that? Played any more DVDs, FFd, chapter skip, etc...? (just debating here whether the Toshiba looks as stable in the D1 as the Liteon does, based on MediocreFred's testing...)

2.) Any other recommendations about prep of the Toshiba drive besides putting the Bravo 1.0.0.5 firmware CD in it and booting the D1? (should it be hooked to a PC first for any prep?)

Thanks again. Great stuff...

Well, I guess another one for the "You Know Your DVD Collection is out of hand when..." thread would be when you have non-R1/R0 DVD's that you've forgotten about. :( ;)

The Bravo does appear to be region-free with the updated Toshiba SD-M1502 in it. I tested this with the following DVD's:
R3 - Rear Window
R6 - Return of the Jedi
R6 - Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
All of which load and play fine on the Bravo now, but do not work in my R1 players. So yes, the Bravo with a firmware upgraded region-free DVD-ROM drive does appear to function properly as a region-free unit.

I haven't had any lockups with the Toshiba in - yet. Keep in mind, I've only watched a few different movies on it since I put it in the Bravo, and I haven't had it in the Bravo all that long so far. I did play Panic Room (Superbit) all the way through at 48x last night, and it worked fine. I've also done chapter skip tests through movies and it seems to work fine. Another advantage is, VCD's that would not play at all in the Bravo before, now load immediately and play. The only real downside with the Toshiba is that if you put in an ISO CD with lots of small files (i.e. pictures), it will go at the full 48x reading it and can be pretty loud (doesn't happen with DVD's, VCD's, or CD-R's with a few large files, though). Corrupt pictures on ISO CD's that locked up the Bravo with the Fuss, now give the proper error message and can be bypassed.

In order to put the region-free firmware (http://forum.firmware-flash.com/dl_firmware.php?download_id=190) onto the Toshiba SD-M1502, you need to connect it to a PC first and make a bootable DOS floppy that also contains the files from the firmware update zip. Boot to the floppy, run update, select the proper drive, and it should go. Then you should be able to play any region discs on it in the Bravo. Note that there appear to be two different revisions of the Toshiba that use different firmware, so I would recommend using something like the Nero Infotool (ftp://ftp9.nero.com/attach/infotool.zip) to get the current firmware version of the drive (mine was 1012) before selecting a region-free firmware to use with it.

is to remove the front panel of the Loader, remove the audio level control, and perhaps the Eject button. I decided that was a real pain (for now!).
I think the Toshiba with the Fuss front could probably be made to be more flush with the Bravo front as well if I did remove all the rest of the front parts of it as well (which are still on it in the pictures), but so far I've decided it's not worth the hassle. ;)

Deathwind: All I can say is WOW! :D Thank you very much for the information.
I know it's hard to answer, but do you think this would this work with other DVD Rom models? I haven't been able to find the 'Toshiba SD-M1502' or the 'LiteOn XJHD-166' in any UK pc shops :(

As promised, here's my experience and protocol for switching out the Fuss loader with the Sony loader.

Disclaimers: As jrannison pointed out, do this at your own risk. Any modification (and just opening the case) almost surely void the V, Inc. warranty. I make no guarantees that this would be a success for anyone else nor do I take responsibility for the accuracy or appropriateness of this modification.

With that said, here are the steps that I followed. It took about an hour. Of course, I didn't have the protocol. I would expect that someone handy could do this in half an hour or so. Keep in mind that you are working inside the D1. So, cut power when it isn't needed.
[list=1]
Open PC and connect IDE and power supply cables to the Sony loader. Install included software PowerDVD. Load a Region 1 DVD and set the Sony loaders region to Region 1. This takes all of 5 minutes.
Disconnect Bravo D1 from power. Remove D1 case top by removing 8 screws (all phillips head).
Remove 4 screws that mount Fuss loader to D1 case. Remove Fuss loader from its position, but leave cables connected.
Restore power and "Eject" loader tray (so that the tray is open). Disconnect power.
Remove IDE and power cables from Fuss loader and reconnect them to Sony loader.
Restore power and "Eject" Sony loader tray (so that the tray is open). Disconnect power.
Swap loader tray faceplates (a simple snap-off and snap-on procedure). On the Sony loader, also remove faceplate that covers eject button (the faceplate on the loader -- not the loader tray).
Remove front "tabs" from Sony loader tray (the ones used to keep discs in the tray when mounted vertically). I shaved them off with a utility knife. Be careful not to get debris inside the loader and don't scar the tray surface (so as not to scratch discs).
Restore power. "Eject" again to restore tray within loader (so that the tray is closed). Disconnect power.
Remove steel plate inside D1 case around tray opening (remove 2 screws). This will allow loader tray front to get closer flush.
Determine proper "shim" height for Sony loader. This is trial and error. The trial part is pushing the "Eject" button to see if tray will open unobstructed. The error part is when it doesn't. Without shims, the Sony loader sits too low. For the front shims, I used 6 layers of thick-stock paper scraps. I "connected" the shim to the D1 case with electrical tape. For the rear shims, I used industrial strength Velcro (this serves to both shim and "connect" the loader to the D1 case).
Test. Replace case top. Restore power.
Enjoy the D1's spectacular picture without having to worry about it locking up.
[/list=1]

Picture is attached. As you can see, the tray faceplate is no longer flush with the front. However, it isn't so bad that anyone would care (or even notice). The tray front is recessed about 1/4", I'd guess.

I tested several discs that I previously had problems with loading (the D1 would lock up after the disc was inserted). The common element I found was an animated menu or a start-up montage that preceeded the disc's menu. The discs that I tested were: Monsters, Inc., Almost Famous, Kate & Leopold, Beauty and the Beast, Chicken Run, and Independence Day. All loaded fine. Chapter skip seemed faster and load time was faster. Also, an odd thing no occurs is that the projector loses sync with the D1 after a disc is inserted. The D1's splash screen is there, then the projector loses sync, then regains sync with the FBI warnings. Nothing is lost, it is just something that I don't recall happening before (maybe I just never noticed).

Thanks so much to John (jrannison) for leading us down this path with the idea, experience, and know-how. I will now enjoy my D1 without reservations. I am so excited about not having to worry about the lock-ups. I don't need region-free right now, but might consider the Toshiba drive in the future (thanks Deathwind for the experience). I'll just move the Sony to my PC.

Great info, Deathwind... And you too, Jason... And, of course, John. Everyone else who contributed here, in addition. Thanks a bunch guys...

My D1 is on the way, and if I run into trouble the loader is going and your instructions will very likely be my guide... :)

This is an amazing thread. I've learned so much from this forum. Has anybody contacted v-inc with the results of these tests. If they are in search of a new loader maybe they could use one of the loaders that are a proven improvement.

Marshall

Jason:
Your photos and annotations remind me of the manuals our Tech-Pubs use to do some years back:)
As far as V,inc. using one of these loaders..............well I'm sure these COST MORE!


John

I know it's hard to answer, but do you think this would this work with other DVD Rom models? I haven't been able to find the 'Toshiba SD-M1502' or the 'LiteOn XJHD-166' in any UK pc shops
The only "sure" option I guess would be to import them, but I don't know how much shipping would be to the UK. Both the Toshiba and the LiteOn appear to run about $40USD (now I realize I managed to get mine for practically nothing - $20 from a guy on eBay a few years back who had two whole pallets of them). However, you might be able to try it with any Toshiba (or other brand) DVD-ROM drive that region-free firmware is available for. Specifically, I'd wager that the SD-M1612 or the SD-M1712 would have a good chance of working properly (though I don't know about their availability in England either). Why? Looking around at firmware links just now, I found that the KiSS DP-450/DP-500 DVD player (http://hijacker.rpc1.org/kiss/#Steps) uses these drives, uses the exact same EM8500 chipset as the Bravo, appears to use the identical EM85XX uClinux devkit to the Bravo as the base for the firmware, and has been tested to be successfully made region-free by the same process. That, and that the model # seems to indicate they're just newer revisions of my drive, suggests to me that they'd have a good chance of working.

If MediocreFred is in an experimental mood, I found a region free firmware for the XJHD-166S (http://forum.firmware-flash.com/dl_firmware.php?download_id=99) that could work in his drive to make it RPC-1 (region free) as well. Since his is known to be dang stable, while I'm still toying around a bit with the Toshiba, this might be a better route to go for those who want region-free and sure stability.

An additional thanks to John, MediocreFred, JasonATL, and everyone else who's participated in this thread. I know I for one probably wouldn't have been so bold in tearing open the Bravo and plopping another random drive in if others hadn't tried it before me. :)

Update: Well, how about that. Those of you with the Sony can also try the following region free patch if you'd like to: Sony DDU-1621 region-free RPC-1 firmware (http://forum.firmware-flash.com/dl_firmware.php?download_id=180)

Samsung SD-616T

Installed much like the others. I used double stick tape on the 4 corners with a wire tie running through the front mounting holes to secure the loader. I removed the faceplate and shaved the headphone input from the front to get it closer to the Bravo front panel. The Fuss front panel fits nicely on the Sammy with very minor trimming on the edge of the Samsung. It sits maybe an 1/8" from flush. One thing should be pointed out: cover the solder side of the Bravo's front panel pcb to protect the points from contacting the metal loader frame if you remove it's front cover.

So far 1 successful dvd viewing without a freeze (uncommon with the Fuss). All commands on the panel and remote work. It still loads slightly slow (10-15 sec.) but chapter skips and ff-rew is seamless. This loader is Region 1 with 4 chances left to switch before it freezes. I think I'll get the Toshiba to replace the Sammy in my PC just in case.....

KUDOS to all that have contributed, especially Jrannison for starting the thread and puting his Bravo to the test. You've made a lot of peoples' days with this fix.

Another...

One more...

fredrok:
Looks good! I might just be tempted to go the extra mile to make my unit more flush with the Bravo face now... :)

Deathwind..............Thanks for the region-free links. I don't have any need for them yet, but one never knows for sure.
My Sony Loader (to be replaced soon) is tied down temporarily with ............would you believe masking tape..:D :D
Well it works!

John

Why not? The entire process to me just over an hour...and most of that was scratching my head! I know the feeling: you get so elated that it worked at all and you want to jump to just enjoying it. Thanks for all your input DW.

MediocreFred,

First of all, thanks to you and others who have contributed immensely to this thread.

I'd appreciate if you could answer a few questions for me, since I plan to replace my loader with the LiteOn. Though other users have had success with other loaders, your experience shows the LiteOn to be the most stable up to this point.

Anyway, here's what I'd like to know:

1) When I receive the LiteOn, is there any prep work I need to do by connecting the loader to a PC, etc? Or can I just plug it to the Bravo right out of the box?

2) When in operation (DVD playback), is the LiteOn loud? In my experience, DVD-ROM drives tend to make significantly more noise than regular DVD players. My Bravo is placed quite close to the viewing position, so silence is very important.

3) Were you able to mount the LiteOn inside the Bravo? Did you figure out a way of removing the faceplate of the LiteOn tray? Did you try replacing the LiteOn tray faceplace with that of the FUSS?

4) Is the LiteOn still working flawlessly? Or have you now discovered any flaws? About how many movies have you logged on the LiteOn till now?

I'll be holding my purchase till I hear from you. Thanks again for your help.

You guys are the b@lls... :) Now I've just gotta decide which replacement loader to use. Lucky for me I still have a little bit of time (but hopefully not more than a week) for my Sammy 617w to arrive before I'm forced to make a decision... I'm thinking there should be some more to learn about the relative stability of the different loader configurations by then.

Barring, of course, the preferred alternative of leaving the D1 intact if I'm lucky enough to have no problems with it...

deathwind,

I happened to own (4) Toshiba M1502 DVD drives in various computers (lucky me).. They were all flashed region free and here is the info on the drive I decided to put into my Bravo D1
http://www.mike-lee.org/computerpage/driveinfo.jpg
I followed the instructions exactly..even flashing to firmware 1.0.0.5 from the vinc site first.

The result is that everything works fine EXCEPT it is *NOT* region free... My player is still Region 1 only... I own a lot of region 2,3 and 4 DVD and all of the ones I tried do not work.. It didn't matter if it was PAL or NTSC. :( The player only played region 1 or 0 DVDs.

Has anyone else gotten this to work besides deathwind? My player was from the third wave, bought about a month ago..

--mike

Originally posted by leemik
deathwind,

The result is that everything works fine EXCEPT it is *NOT* region free... My player is still Region 1 only... I own a lot of region 2,3 and 4 DVD and all of the ones I tried do not work.. --mike

Argh :( bad news, I was going to order the Bravo, I hope it's possible to mod it so it's 1005 region free...

Well I bit the bullet since my Bravo was useless with total lockups, when I tried to play a DVD. I replaced mine with a Lite-ON 163D which had been flashed to region free. I have zero lock-ups now at all, plays beautifully and loads ten times faster. The only downfall is that the drive is noisey. I have been keeping quiet until I tested for about a week and played over 25 DVD's all the way through. My suggestion is to do this if you have lock-up problems because it seems VINC is doing nothing about the crappy FUSS Loaders. Sorry fellows I do not have anything but US material to try so cannot help ya with the region free part. Oh and I got mine to fit flush and there is no way you would know the loader has been changed.

Viper

Argh bad news, I was going to order the Bravo, I hope it's possible to mod it so it's 1005 region free... Yeah, I had my hopes up high too :( I dunno what Deathwind did to make his region free but maybe loading the Momitsu firmware then 1.0.0.5 did something?

Another weird thing is that I couldn't update my firmware with the Toshiba drive plugged in(it would hang on "BOOTCD.") I had to switch back to the original drive to do it. I think Deathwind had a difference experience here too...

My original drive didn't skip or freeze in the month I had it(probably played ~10 movies all the way and "clicked around" another 20 or so)... I really didn't gain much from swapping the drives so I'll probably switch back.

--mike

Question: One complaint about the D1 is the lack of DVD-RW support. If one replaced the loader with a loader that can read DVD-RW, would that fix the problem?

Originally posted by Viper32
I replaced mine with a Lite-ON 163D which had been flashed to region free.

Oh and I got mine to fit flush and there is no way you would know the loader has been changed.

Viper
Viper,

Is this the same drive as the one used by MediocreFred? And, how did you get it to fit flush? Thanks.

Great thread! Flashing the DVD drive firmware seems a lot simpler than hacking the region codes in the ISO image of the Linux firmware for the Bravo itself.

I will note one thing however. I had a Toshiba 1502 drive die on me last year, just a few weeks after I flashed it with new region free firmware. I'm not 100% sure it wasn't somehow related. I know Toshiba tries their hardest to make this difficult for you.

Now all I need to do is find someone who has the Bravo working on a Fujitsu 5002 via DVI!

Originally posted by mpedris
Viper,

Is this the same drive as the one used by MediocreFred? And, how did you get it to fit flush? Thanks.

I am not sure if its the same one he used. I took the faceplate off it and put the tray front off the Bravo Fuss loader on it. Thats all I did and it fits flush to the front. I am going to try and find a loader thats a little quiter though as the Lite-On is a very loud unit.

Viper

The result is that everything works fine EXCEPT it is *NOT* region free... My player is still Region 1 only... I own a lot of region 2,3 and 4 DVD and all of the ones I tried do not work.. It didn't matter if it was PAL or NTSC. The player only played region 1 or 0 DVDs.
Hmmm...very odd. Also odd that I was able to flash the Bravo firmware using the Toshiba, while yours would hang. I don't know what's going on here, but I have some more non-R1/R0 DVD's on the way so I can do further testing. Until then, I'd guess I'll have to suggest that everyone else not get their hopes up for an easy region-free fix via the loader.

Originally posted by Viper32
I am going to try and find a loader thats a little quiter though as the Lite-On is a very loud unit.

Viper
Viper,

Please let me know if you are successful at finding a stable, quiet loader to work with the D1. Silent operation is EXTREMELY important to me.

Thanks.

Is the Toshiba unit loud?

Originally posted by Nooby
Is the Toshiba unit loud?
Good Question. Deathwind, is it LOUD?

For DVD's, you'll hear the disc spin up a little for the initial read when you first put it in, but beyond that it's quiet during DVD movie playback. A CD-R with files, however, will make it sound like it's about to take off across the room.

Probably not the best choice if absolute silent operation at all times is your goal, as it is really really loud reading ISO CD's.

Originally posted by Deathwind
For DVD's, you'll hear the disc spin a little when you first put it in, but beyond that it's quiet during DVD movie playback. A CD-R with files, however, will make it sound like it's about to take off across the room.
Deathwind,

This is great news since I'm interested only in DVD playback.

Can you recommend a website where I can purchase the Toshiba unit online? Thanks.

Can you recommend a website where I can purchase the Toshiba unit online? Thanks.
www.pricewatch.com has two sites with approx. the same price on the unit.

Edited to add: You also might like to ask leemik about the noise as well before you order, as he has 4 units and we've already come across other performance differences between ours even within the same Toshiba model #.

Regarding the LiteOn drive that I used, the model number is XJHD-166. THis used to be called LTD-166 or something like that before LiteOn and JVC merged. Read up more about this on cdfreaks.com - that's where I got most of my info from.

This LiteOn drive sounds like a jet plane when it is spinning up and spinning down - but, this lasts for only a couple of seconds. During the course of normal operation (such as, playing the movie), it is very quiet. Even with the LiteOn OUTSIDE and on top of the D1, I can't hear it at all. My D1 is right behind the viewer and at about ear level.

This model of LiteOn is supposed to be significantly quiter than the older models - such as, the 163(?) that Viper had used.

-MediocreFred.

You also might like to ask leemik about the noise as well before you order I only played movies and it was as quiet as the FUSS during normal operations... I do notice it is louder during the initial spinup like Deathwind said and the eject is much louder. It's not an issue for me..

--mike

I'm still QUITE interested in the possibility of converting this player for use in Europe. I have a PLV-70 and only play region 2 PAL discs, and I'd like a way to up the quality of the DVD output. If it turns out that there is some sort of stable solution for the region issue I'm wondering about PAL. Would this player "properly" configured to open region upscale PAL in the same way that it does NTSC, offering me the same image quality as U.S. PLV-70/Bravo owners have been raving about?

With regards to operating noise, normally @ standard DVD "reads" the RPM's should be relatively low.
I seem to recall some years back when I use to play with CD Loaders, you could program the maximum RPM (X2,X3,X4,etc.) the unit would be allowed to reach; then it was stored in the units RAM.
I don't know if those options are still available.

I want to thank all of you for the additional information you have supplied since I started this (thread) fun project. :D

John

Would this player "properly" configured to open region upscale PAL Well, I can offer this much: I did "rip" two of my PAL movies (and removed all sorts of protection from the discs including region coding) to see if it played PAL movies on my NTSC TV and it did.. It looked really great too and I was able to also upconvert it to 1080i.

The bad part is I only have an NTSC TV so I can't test any direct PAL to PAL output/upconversion... *BUT* if you wanted to convert your PAL to NTSC and then upconvert it to 1080i/720p, that would work

The zoom feature works well too.. it effectively zooms non-anamorphic disks to fit my widescreen TV whether it is PAL or NTSC.. and the aspect ratios look correct zoomed and you can upconvert it to 1080i/720p

This player has everything I'm looking for except it's region locked :( Guess I should have gone with the Momitsu but it's too late now... Pleeeeease someone come out with a region hacked firmware :)

--mike

-Mike,

Thanks for the information, I suppose we're inching closer to a definitive 'yes' or 'no' on this machine for european use. It would be such an elegant answer for me and a lot of others if it could work. I'd rather not dive into the trecherous waters of the HTPC if I don't have too. I'd also rather not shell out 1500+€ (MSRP) for a Denon or Marantz player that does PAL progressive -and even those machines are still unofficial!

I was playing with my Toshiba loader in the Bravo a little bit more last night and I found that I could get the firmware to boot and load if I connected a jumper to "cable select" on the drive... but it would definately hang trying to do this jumperless. very strange..

Deathwind: do you have any jumpers on your loader?

...and I tried two of my other "all region" hacked Toshiba M1502's to see if there is possibly a problem with my original M1502 but there was no difference--it's still region locked :(

--mike

Originally posted by Cristobal
I'm still QUITE interested in the possibility of converting this player for use in Europe. I have a PLV-70 and only play region 2 PAL discs, and I'd like a way to up the quality of the DVD output. If it turns out that there is some sort of stable solution for the region issue I'm wondering about PAL. Would this player "properly" configured to open region upscale PAL in the same way that it does NTSC, offering me the same image quality as U.S. PLV-70/Bravo owners have been raving about?

I played my region free version of "Irreversible" in its native PAL format upconverted to 720P on my PJ and it looked great. The PJ handles native PAL without converting to NTSC. This solution should work wonderfully for you.

Regarding Loader Jumpers: When I setup the different Loaders during the tests I conducted, I did find in my case the jumper must be set to MASTER, Slave did not function correctly (which makes sense), and I don't recall if I tried Cable Select.

John

Originally posted by Cristobal
I'm still QUITE interested in the possibility of converting this player for use in Europe. I have a PLV-70 and only play region 2 PAL discs, and I'd like a way to up the quality of the DVD output. If it turns out that there is some sort of stable solution for the region issue I'm wondering about PAL. Would this player "properly" configured to open region upscale PAL in the same way that it does NTSC, offering me the same image quality as U.S. PLV-70/Bravo owners have been raving about?
Why don't you simply go with the Momitsu (aka Brainwave)? It's region free with DVI.

This is great that the lockup problems look to be resolved. Any comments from Vinc on whether they are going to start phasing in a new loader? Does the loader actually have firmware in it, so that maybe an update of the current Vinc loader is possible? Thanks.

John

Originally posted by Deathwind
Well, I guess another one for the "You Know Your DVD Collection is out of hand when..." thread would be when you have non-R1/R0 DVD's that you've forgotten about. :( ;)

The Bravo does appear to be region-free with the updated Toshiba SD-M1502 in it. I tested this with the following DVD's:
R3 - Rear Window
R6 - Return of the Jedi
R6 - Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
All of which load and play fine on the Bravo now, but do not work in my R1 players. So yes, the Bravo with a firmware upgraded region-free DVD-ROM drive does appear to function properly as a region-free unit.

I haven't had any lockups with the Toshiba in - yet. Keep in mind, I've only watched a few different movies on it since I put it in the Bravo, and I haven't had it in the Bravo all that long so far. I did play Panic Room (Superbit) all the way through at 48x last night, and it worked fine. I've also done chapter skip tests through movies and it seems to work fine. Another advantage is, VCD's that would not play at all in the Bravo before, now load immediately and play. The only real downside with the Toshiba is that if you put in an ISO CD with lots of small files (i.e. pictures), it will go at the full 48x reading it and can be pretty loud (doesn't happen with DVD's, VCD's, or CD-R's with a few large files, though). Corrupt pictures on ISO CD's that locked up the Bravo with the Fuss, now give the proper error message and can be bypassed.

In order to put the region-free firmware (http://forum.firmware-flash.com/dl_firmware.php?download_id=190) onto the Toshiba SD-M1502, you need to connect it to a PC first and make a bootable DOS floppy that also contains the files from the firmware update zip. Boot to the floppy, run update, select the proper drive, and it should go. Then you should be able to play any region discs on it in the Bravo. Note that there appear to be two different revisions of the Toshiba that use different firmware, so I would recommend using something like the Nero Infotool (ftp://ftp9.nero.com/attach/infotool.zip) to get the current firmware version of the drive (mine was 1012) before selecting a region-free firmware to use with it.


I think the Toshiba with the Fuss front could probably be made to be more flush with the Bravo front as well if I did remove all the rest of the front parts of it as well (which are still on it in the pictures), but so far I've decided it's not worth the hassle. ;)

Originally posted by mpedris
Why don't you simply go with the Momitsu (aka Brainwave)? It's region free with DVI.

That's just what I decided to do. I ordered a Brainwave from Germany today. I'm supposed to get it next week, they are advertising that it comes with the updated firmware so I'm crossing my fingers that I luck into a good unit. Now the problem is how to cable up the darn thing, I'm afraid I'm going to have to put it under the projector and run digital coaxial around the room for the audio. I need about 15 metres of cable and that's just too long for the DVI.

Originally posted by Cristobal
That's just what I decided to do. I ordered a Brainwave from Germany today.

HI, do you have a link to the online shop? :)

Originally posted by NickUk
HI, do you have a link to the online shop? :)

Sure Nick,

I used cyberport.de

I found the player on a few German sites -some at a slightly (very slightly) lower price but this site had the advantage of offering a telephone number, I called them up and ordered the machine no muss no fuss -English over the phone being much easier than fumbling through a German language order form. So far so good, they say the player takes about a week to get to Spain so I'll update when it comes in.

Cheers

Originally posted by Kris Deering
I played my region free version of "Irreversible" in its native PAL format upconverted to 720P on my PJ and it looked great. The PJ handles native PAL without converting to NTSC. This solution should work wonderfully for you.

Thanks for responding. As I've noted elsewhere on this thread I've just put in for the German clone -the Brainwave V880. I sincerely hope that you are right about it working wonderfully -wish me luck.

Cheers

I received a LITEON MODEL XJ-HD166S Loader that MediocreFred used in his D1 with apparent success.

Now for the Good and the Bad:

Good: The characterization for the drive yielded excellent speed and performance data. It also did read the Firmware update disk which the Sony I am using did not.

Bad: There were two disks that would not start correctly (I've had this happen with the Fuss Audio) in that the first intro (would not be visible) and the subsequent image would get gabbled. A power down and restart would usually fix the problem.
Other disks were fine.

I will be receiving a Toshiba 1712 in a few days and will report my findings.


John

Originally posted by jrannison
I received a LITEON MODEL XJ-HD166S Loader that MediocreFred used in his D1 with apparent success.

Now for the Good and the Bad:

Good: The characterization for the drive yielded excellent speed and performance data. It also did read the Firmware update disk which the Sony I am using did not.

Bad: There were two disks that would not start correctly (I've had this happen with the Fuss Audio) in that the first intro (would not be visible) and the subsequent image would get gabbled. A power down and restart would usually fix the problem.
Other disks were fine.

I will be receiving a Toshiba 1712 in a few days and will report my findings.


John
John,

Thanks for the update.

Did you manage to fit the loader flush inside the Bravo? MediocreFred had not tried it.

Also what were the two discs that did not work?

Just a caution about the Liteon HD166 drive. They are very fast and that's why you hear them spin fast. If you press eject while a DVD is spinning, the tray may open with a disk still spinning fast. In my case, the DVD got scratched up and damaged. The newer Liteons have special protections for the disk because of this problem. Sometimes, disks were shattered due to the high-speed spinning.

I also had tried the Sony 1621 (which is a remarked Benq) and I remember it had problems with certain DVD-R or +R media. In the end, I used a Toshiba drive in my older DVD player.

I would suggest slower drives such as the Toshiba 1712, which has worked well for me before. The newer drives read CSS protected DVDs at 2x speeds, and that's exactly what you want... The drives that people don't want for ripping. Slow and quiet.

I appreciate the information you all shared and I will get a Bravo as well.

Originally posted by Rich4av
Just a caution about the Liteon HD166 drive. They are very fast and that's why you hear them spin fast. If you press eject while a DVD is spinning, the tray may open with a disk still spinning fast. In my case, the DVD got scratched up and damaged. The newer Liteons have special protections for the disk because of this problem. Sometimes, disks were shattered due to the high-speed spinning.


Rich,

Thanks for the caution.

I have one question: IF one is careful NOT to eject while the disc is spinning, then can I assume that the disc will NOT be damaged?

In other words, can normal playback damage the disc? Or does the damage occur ONLY if ejected while spinning?

Thanks in advance.

Manendra...........I did not try to set the LiteON JLMS-XJ-HD166S Loader into the D1 as I won't use it because of the two failures. I do not want to go the "Fuss Audio" type failure route :( . One DVD failure was "O BROTHER, Where Art Thou?", the other I don't recall.

I don't think this loader (Firmware Ver. DS14) has the "eject the disk while spinning problem" because I noticed it would stop before Ejecting the Tray, but again I wasn't looking for that issue. The unit does monitor for excessive vibration (unbalanced disk) and will limit the RPM's.

John

After you put a new loader into the bravo remember that further firmware updates might not work. You can get around this by modifying the fluff.fuf file on the firmware iso. Remove the loader.bin from it and it wont attempt to update your dvd-rom firmware. Make sure you dont mess with the romfs.bin. Sorry if this has been mentioned before.

Originally posted by elmos_lemur
After you put a new loader into the bravo remember that further firmware updates might not work. You can get around this by modifying the fluff.fuf file on the firmware iso. Remove the loader.bin from it and it wont attempt to update your dvd-rom firmware. Make sure you dont mess with the romfs.bin. Sorry if this has been mentioned before.
elmos lemur,

Please excuse my ignorance, but I do not understand what you're saying here.

I have already flashed the new firmware for the Bravo D1 using the Fuss Audio loader. Soon, I plan to purchase and install the LiteOn loader. Are you saying that after I install the LiteOn I will need to re-flash the new firmware and that the LiteOn will not allow that firmware upgrade?

Also, both John and MediocreFred successfully read/installed new Bravo firmware using the LiteOn.



John,

Thanks for the response.

He is saying that if you attempt to load possible future versions of the firmware of the D1, it may try to update the firmware of the loader mechanism itself as well as the overall firmware for the D1, which would cause a problem as you have changed to a different brand loader.

BB

Originally posted by Brandon B
He is saying that if you attempt to load possible future versions of the firmware of the D1, it may try to update the firmware of the loader mechanism itself as well as the overall firmware for the D1, which would cause a problem as you have changed to a different brand loader.

BB
Ahh! :) Thanks BB and EL for the clarifications.

Having looked extensively at the Bravo firmware, I am 99.9% sure that in the current incarnation it will not even attempt to touch the loader/DVD-ROM drive's firmware. The loader.bin specified in the flash.fuf file is flashed to the start of memory on the Bravo, and is the Bravo's bootloader.

I believe the dvd-roms memory is mapped to location 0. I could be wrong(have been before) but after looking at other firmwares that use sigmas it appears that this is the case. With this design they can update the rom of the dvd-rom drive and the sigma chip with great ease. If this is not the case where do you think they put it? Also have you tried to decompile the firmware. And if so what decompiler did you use?

I guess we could prove this if anyone tried to update using the new firmware and a different dvd loader.

Originally posted by Deathwind
Having looked extensively at the Bravo firmware, I am 99.9% sure that in the current incarnation it will not even attempt to touch the loader/DVD-ROM drive's firmware. The loader.bin specified in the flash.fuf file is flashed to the start of memory on the Bravo, and is the Bravo's bootloader.
OK! Now, I'm truly confused :confused:

So, which is it: loader firmware AFFECTED or NOT affected?

I believe the dvd-roms memory is mapped to location 0. I could be wrong(have been before) but after looking at other firmwares that use sigmas it appears that this is the case. With this design they can update the rom of the dvd-rom drive and the sigma chip with great ease. If this is not the case where do you think they put it? Also have you tried to decompile the firmware. And if so what decompiler did you use?

I guess we could prove this if anyone tried to update using the new firmware and a different dvd loader.
I updated using the new firmware and a Toshiba DVD-ROM drive in the Bravo. It did not touch my Toshiba's firmware. I believe others have done this successfully as well. I'm rather sure the 0x0000 address is the beginning of memory where the Bravo's firmware is stored. Also, if you look inside the loader.bin file, you will clearly see the string "Jasper Bootloader v1.0.0 (Jul 8 2003 23:34:36)" (the cleartext message strings that follow this also suggest that it's the Bravo's bootloader, and not DVD-ROM firmware).

DeathWind thanks for the info. I looked at your old mail on loading the other sigma players. Where do you think the dvd-rom firmware is stored?
Also i did the same thing with the Momitsu firmware and got it to load fine(no crashes) BUT again i couldnt get the buttons to work. I just rebooted it and pressed stop to get it to the boot cd and held down open.

Originally posted by elmos_lemur
DeathWind thanks for the info. I looked at your old mail on loading the other sigma players. Where do you think the dvd-rom firmware is stored?
Elmos,

Does this mean you agree with Deathwind that upgrading the Bravo firmware in the future will NOT change the loader firmware?

Im not convinced yet. But in the future if they do have a dvd-rom firmware update either way it will hose your drive or fail. If we can figure out what file in the firmware iso updates the dvd-rom firmware we can then remove the region protection or update the dvd-rom firm without puttin it in a pc.


Update
DeathWind . After messing with the files and checkin out other firmwares I agree with you the loader.bin is not the dvd-rom rom. Sorry to have ever doubted you :) Tell me how the disassembly goes. I will try to do the same. Im gonna try with the GBA disassemblers I have.

Where do you think the dvd-rom firmware is stored?
For now they appear to be leaving the DVD-ROM firmware completely alone during the Bravo firmware update process. As you said, this could change in the future.

As to decompiling the firmware binaries, I'm going to try to possibly tinker around with it some this weekend. My guess is that the EM8500 uses a 150MHz ARM system-on-chip design, so anything that can disassemble ARM-targeted code might have a chance at making some sense of it (i.e. gdb/ARMulator, objdump, ADS, etc.). I'm also going to try tinkering with the uClinux base some as well.

Originally posted by mpedris
Rich,

Thanks for the caution.

I have one question: IF one is careful NOT to eject while the disc is spinning, then can I assume that the disc will NOT be damaged?

In other words, can normal playback damage the disc? Or does the damage occur ONLY if ejected while spinning?

Thanks in advance.

mpedris,

I think that damage only happens during the eject (which could have been fixed by firmware updates, by the way). I no longer have that drive and I must have done dozens of ejects until the weird one ;) Also, a DVD player may spin the disk differently than a PC.

See this site for explanations as well as the latest firmwares and to make it RF http://digi.rpc1.org/165_166.htm

DeathWind . After messing with the files and checkin out other firmwares I agree with you the loader.bin is not the dvd-rom rom. Sorry to have ever doubted you
No problem! :D
Tell me how the disassembly goes. I will try to do the same. Im gonna try with the GBA disassemblers I have.
I just finished building an arm-elf gcc toolchain, and my suspicion seems confirmed. Doing an objdump of the .o files yields the file format as elf32-littlearm and it decompiles them correctly. However, as you probably well know, even having it in assembly language it's not exactly as simple as just reading through and knowing exactly what's going on ;) .

Originally posted by Deathwind
No problem! :D

I just finished building an arm-elf gcc toolchain, and my suspicion seems confirmed. Doing an objdump of the .o files yields the file format as elf32-littlearm and it decompiles them correctly. However, as you probably well know, even having it in assembly language it's not exactly as simple as just reading through and knowing exactly what's going on ;) . Deathwind (Young Neo) -
This thread makes me think of "The Matrix" where the code just scrolls down green on the ship's monitors............

Originally posted by Jim Noyd
This thread makes me think of "The Matrix" where the code just scrolls down green on the ship's monitors............
"All I see is blonde, brunette..."

Oh wait, that's the DVD I'm actually *watching* on my Bravo! :D

Deathwind (Young Neo) -
This thread makes me think of "The Matrix" where the code just scrolls down green on the ship's monitors............
Thanks :D.

Actually though, it looks a little more like this:
400: ebfffffe bl 400 <RMFreeInZone+0x2c>
404: e3500000 cmp r0, #0 ; 0x0
408: 12843010 addne r3, r4, #16 ; 0x10
40c: 10600003 rsbne r0, r0, r3
410: 03a00010 moveq r0, #16 ; 0x10
414: e5982004 ldr r2, [r8, #4]
418: e59d4004 ldr r4, [sp, #4]
41c: e0823000 add r3, r2, r0
420: e2433001 sub r3, r3, #1 ; 0x1
424: e1530004 cmp r3, r4
428: 2a0001f3 bcs bfc <minor_ioctl+0x1e0>

It wouldn't be that bad if there just weren't 60000+ lines of it :eek:.

On a side note, since you'd be the only one here who would know, does anybody else from V browse here and know what all we're doing/trying to do to the Bravo? ;)

Oh wait, that's the DVD I'm actually *watching* on my Bravo! :D
What?! You actually watch DVD's on your Bravo instead of swapping various drives into it and messing about with the firmware? I'll have to try that some time. ;)

Seriously though, I'm somewhat working on a webpage that aggregates all the loader info in this thread, along with firmware info, general info on the EM8500, and setting up a linux development environment to do your own messing about in if you wish (which I'd be further along on myself if I could get the uClinux-ARM kernel I'm using with gdb/ARMulator to actually find init in the Bravo's romfs). Once it starts to approach a level of readability, I'll post it. :)

Young Neo-
I can't comment for the factory here, but I am interested in any efforts regarding better home theater and how Bravo D1 fans are using their favorite new toy.

Looking forward to your upcoming thread!

I installed an older Toshiba 1102 DVD-CD/RW drive in the Bravo tonight. I used thin nylon ties to hold it in place (threaded them through the screwholes). It works fine so far and is absolutely quiet and cool. While the drive is RF, it would not play other region DVDs. However, if the DVD is not region-coded, it plays PAL DVDs as well.

The only other possibility I can think of is that the R3/R6 DVD's I tested with could be multi-region encoded, and my older R1 players just don't want to play them for some reason or another. I have some definite R2 and R3 encoded only discs on the way so I can see if this is the case (and to test any further region-free attempts with).

Ok I tried a GP32 disassembler I got ahold of(ARM). It worked well. BUT I was thinking. The KISS player has a network adapter on it and this puppy runs busybox. I wonder if we couldnt get a telnet/terminal daemon running/listening on a kiss box and start debuggin that way? Whatcha think? Im also figuring the basic code is the same between most the player whats different is the libraries they include for the external components i.e. network adapter, usb, interface(LCD, buttons)

Originally posted by elmos_lemur
Ok I tried a GP32 disassembler I got ahold of(ARM). It worked well. BUT I was thinking. The KISS player has a network adapter on it and this puppy runs busybox. I wonder if we couldnt get a telnet/terminal daemon running/listening on a kiss box and start debuggin that way? Whatcha think? Im also figuring the basic code is the same between most the player whats different is the libraries they include for the external components i.e. network adapter, usb, interface(LCD, buttons)
:confused: Talk about speaking Greek! ;)

My D-1 seems to work basically OK in that it does not lockup, but the video stutters and jerks almost constantly, is that a function of the loader or something else? Also, for those of you that have changed loaders; do you notice any differences in picture or sound quality (for better or worse)?

John Noyd:
Would V inc. be willing to reimburse those who have had to perform this operation on brand new D-1's that don't work properly? Yes, I know they can be exchanged; but it seems the chances of getting a worse one is high!

Regards,
Bob

Well...

I've now had three hiccups with the Sony loader. The first was so minor that I wondered if it even happened. Two have happened with the new version of Casablanca and one time with another movie (Bowfinger). The first Casablanca loaded (just a quick look at the PQ for me the day I bought it), the D1 player's front panel display froze on 00:00. Without going into my theater to see what the video was like, I just hit eject and reloaded it. All worked fine (and the picture is gorgeous!). So, I wasn't totally sure that it was even a problem (thinking perhaps I hadn't seated the disc well). Last night (of course, I had guests in my theater!), I put Bowfinger in. It locked up on the opening menu (again, a menu with action/film clips in the background). The power cycle solved this (as before with the Fuss loader). Then, after ejecting this movie later, I put in Casablanca. Again, it froze on the opening menu. Power cycle solved it.

So, the Sony doesn't appear to solve all lock-up problems for me.

Clearly, I'm dissappointed. I don't regret making the change -- the problems are far fewer than before and spin-up time is greatly increased. I might switch this drive out for the LiteOn and move the Sony to my computer if others continue to have no problems. Perhaps others could load these two discs (without cycling the power)? However, I never had the impression that the lock-up problems were all that replicable.

A side note: The layer change seems improved. I wouldn't have even noticed the layer change if my B&K processor hadn't "clicked" with the nearly instantaneous loss in digital audio (the B&K doesn't mute the digital signal as other processors do). I always thought the D1's layer change was quite quick, but it seemed even faster and seemless with the new loader. Another apparent benefit of the loader replacement.

Jason.........I don't know if you read my post earlier in this thread, but I have a new LiteOn and it has a definite problem with some of the disk I have used. I also updated the LiteOn with the latest Firmware and retried it yesterday with no avail.

I have a Toshiba 1712 "in the mail" and will report on it.

So far in my system the Sony has been flawless (that being said, I can now expect a failure). I do have a new copy of Casablanca that I have not looked at, I will give it a try.

A question for all you that have been following this ADVENTURE........There is a utility that is used for the Pioneer Loaders that will place it in "quiet mode", which reduces the maximum RPM's to reduce the noise for viewing movies. Has anyone seen any utilities for other brands?, I have not been able to find any.

As far as changes in PQ or Audio quality, I have seen no change.

John

Mufflers, another aftermarket product for modded Bravo D1's!

Jim..........Good Headers and a Supercharger are also great!:D

John

A question for all you that have been following this ADVENTURE........There is a utility that is used for the Pioneer Loaders that will place it in "quiet mode", which reduces the maximum RPM's to reduce the noise for viewing movies. Has anyone seen any utilities for other brands?, I have not been able to find any.
I did notice that the firmwares released for the KiSS DVD-ROM drives have been speed-reduced in such a manner.Max read speed of plain CDs is 16x and max DVD read speed is set to 2x!
And one of the KiSS drives is, luckily enough, the 1712 ;). You can find them here (http://hijacker.rpc1.org/kiss/#Download), if you're interested.

Jim not John Noyd: sorry for messing up on your name, you should see what people have done to mine over the years!

Bob Jew

I also experienced some problems with the Toshiba 1102 drive. It works fine on the first disk. When I play a second one, typically, it stutters when I start playback. The fix is a "cold" boot (pull power cable, replug in). A simple power off/on did not fix. I may try a different drive tonight.

edit: This may be the same periodic startup problem others are having - no picture but audio OK, then pictures comes back, stutters, and the menu is messed up. It may be a problem on the D1 side, not the drive side.

Jason...............I did verify the periodic start problem with Casablanca using the Sony, and also with the original Fuss Audio. My Fuss Audio only rarely did have any problems. There must be something with the start of Casablanca that the D1 Firmware/Processor does not like.

Deathwind......Thanks for the info.

John

Originally posted by jrannison
Jason...............I did verify the periodic start problem with Casablanca using the Sony, and also with the original Fuss Audio.

John
John,

Did you try Casablanca with the LiteOn? If not, could you please try that and see if it works without any problems, if it's not too much trouble?

Thanks in advance.

The LiteOn did work with Casablanca the few times I tried it, however it did fail startup on two other disks I have.

John

Hi folks,

I too recently received a brand new copy of Casablanca (the latest Special Version release). After reading the problems folks have been having with the Sony loader, I just tried it with the LiteOn and it worked just fine. No stuttering anywhere at all.

I've also been renting quite a few movies from my local BB (some new releases and some pretty old, scratched and dirty ones) and haven't had one single hiccup with the LiteOn. Haven't tried replacing the faceplate yet. Will try it this afternoon if I get some time.

I did try Bowfinger (from my local BB) last weekend and it played just fine as well.

Shall post back if I find any problems with the LiteOn.

Am following the firmware decompiling posts with a great deal of interest.

-MediocreFred.

MediocreFred,

Let me know if you have any success with the face-plate exchange and getting to fit the LiteOn flush on the Bravo. Thanks.

I did some new testing today with the D1 with the Fuss loader.

I can not play 2 CSS-protected disks in a row. I have problems on the second one, generally at the beginning and/or the menu. The solution is a power cycle (pull power cable completely).

However, I have played 5 different RF DVDs in a row without any issues.

As soon as I put in a CSS-protected disk, the problem occurs.

This would point to a problem in the D1's firmware regarding CSS handling. It may not be reinitializing some values properly in-between CSS DVDs.

FWIW, 14 DVDs on the Samsung loader and not one miss. Really have to look for the layer change to even see it. Only gets loud with data CDs...

Tonight, I tried a Pioneer 117 DVD drive. I set it on top of the Fuss drive and connected the cables.

I must have put in a dozen DVDs one right after the next. Not a single DVD menu start-up problem. I thought this was it!

Given the good results, I mounted the 117 instead of the Fuss and put the cover back on.

Now it has the same problems on the second DVDs.

This one has me baffled...

Rich

I did have a problem with a Pioneer 120S Loader in that it would skip to the next chapter at the Layer Change. Although this is a different model.

About the problem..... I assume you did try the same DVD's? Make sure the jumper is set for MASTER on the Loader.


Edit: fredrok....What model is the Loader?


John

John,

Yes, I have been trying the same DVDs.

What I found is that when the second DVD has problems at the menu, I eject the disk, hit play and then it plays fine. I did not watch long enough to check the layer change.

Hi John,

It's a Samsung SD-616T.

MediocreFred,

Once you received the LiteOn, did you flash it with the latest LiteOn 166 firmware version before fixing it to the Bravo? Or are you using the LiteOn with the firmware that came with it? Thanks.

Originally posted by jrannison
Rich

I did have a problem with a Pioneer 120S Loader in that it would skip to the next chapter at the Layer Change. Although this is a different model.


John

This is the single glitch my replacement D1 has suffered, and only once. Is this one of the matters you suspect may be a firmware issue rather than loader related?

BB

I suspect that ALL issues (except junk loaders and a real poor disk) are related with the Firmware and the handshake that goes on with the Loader, and the video (data) stream processing.
The Pioneer was the only one (of the 5 brands I have tested) that skips to the next chapter @ a layer change.

Any and ALL problems NEVER have appeared with my RP82!

John

For those of you trying to get "Region Free" from the D1 by finding a Region Free Loader.......your out of luck, as I see it.

I just happen to look at the original Fuss Audio Loader and NeroInfo Tool indicates: Region Control=RPC1; Region Code=All.

That indicates the region is monitored within the processor board.

John

Can we approach V-Inc and ask them if they're interested in beta testing new firmware with some of us to fix some of these "handshake" issues? It would surely benefit them.

Right now, the Fuss loader has a problem. I tried a Pioneer drive which mostly works (when the menu freezes happen, I eject and press play again to restart). I have not seen layer change glitches yet.

I just bought a brand new Lite-on JLMS XJ-HD166S for $50cnd, very cheap and tried what some here have done...Unfortunately for me, the noise of this drive was unacceptable to say the least!
Very noisy at loadup and a squealing noise during playback! (unacceptable for me).


So I now replaced my Pioneer front loading DVD-ROM on my computer with the Lite-on and placed the Pioneer 105 in the Bravo D1.

All I can say is WOW! I love this way by far.

1. Boy is it quiet!
2. NO TRAY OPENING OR CLOSING!!!!!
3. DVD RW now works! You gotta love it!

Here's a picture of what it looks like.


Thank you all for your input. I'm glad I did it

I'm having trouble attaching the pictures...let me try this again.

here's another one...

Awesome! Now you just need some black spray paint!!

I got a Samsung HD-816 (the current model) and tried it. It would not work correctly (I tried with the Star Trek Nemesis DVD and gave up). I pressed Play, and after a few seconds, it would stop on its own.

I put the Pioneer 119 back in, replaced the 40-conductor cable with 80-conductor cable. The DVD menu problem is still there but less frequent.

I cannot seem to find a consistent pattern to reproduce the problem.

Originally posted by Fatshaft

So I now replaced my Pioneer front loading DVD-ROM on my computer with the Lite-on and placed the Pioneer 105 in the Bravo D1.

All I can say is WOW! I love this way by far.

1. Boy is it quiet!
2. NO TRAY OPENING OR CLOSING!!!!!
3. DVD RW now works! You gotta love it!


I thought the Pioneer 105 was a DVD burner, I have it in fact and it does have a tray that comes out. Do you have a specific model number for this drive? Also, can someone cook up a list of all the drives that have been reported to work, and how well each of them work? I think that should be a sticky post, where someone could update the parent from time to time.

Hysterik,

Look here:
http://www.pioneer-eur.com/eur/product_detail.jsp?product_id=633&taxonomy_id=43-91

this is exactly what I'm using and it works GREAT!

Notice the OEM version No. DVD-105

I know what you mean though...I too have the Pioneer A05 Burner.

Regards,

DVD-105 is listed as the OEM version. The actual drive in that link is Pioneer DVD-A05SW, it says it is a European drive. Do you happen to know if it is region free, or what region it is encoded for? Have you tried it with non-R1 DVDs?

I tried to google for this drive, but all I get are links in German, is there a retailer in the US that sells this drive? That slot loader mechanism looks like it would be neat to have.

Here is a much newer version of the Pioneer drive. I have one and its great no one problem. Link attached only 38.00 shipped to ya in the US.....

PIONEER INTERNAL ATAPI 16X DVD-ROM MODEL DVD-120

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=27-129-125&refer=pricewatch

Viper

Hey Viper,

Thanks for the heads up on the Pio drive... did you happen to test it with DVD+R/W? The item description doesn't reference compatibility with this format but neither does the D1's native FUSS drive and it has read all of mine so far....

NickS, I only gave you the link to the Pioneer because it seemed like thats the one ya want. I personally own it and two LiteOns and I will say the LiteOns read everything but the Pioneer can be picky. My recommendation is the LiteOn XJ-HD166S , NewEgg sales it also for the same price and its a great unit, comes in black also. I put the LiteOn in my Bravo and have had ZERO problems since. I have not personally tried the Pioneer in the Bravo, just on the PC.

Viper

Sorry Hysterik, but the link I gave you was to show you what mine looked like. I've had this drive for over 2 years now. I've never had any problems with it! I know it's a DVD Rom 105. That's what it says.

Sorry I couldn't help you out more:(

Believe me I've abused it very much! I tried the Lite-on but to noisy for me...I've put the lite-on on my computer for now. It's a great drive to rip Audio CD's with EAC!

Good luck

Regards,

In regards to the Pioneer 120, I did test the 120S (check the very beginning of this thread) Slot Loader and did have a problem. Now the 120S apparently does use different Firmware.

John

Originally posted by zAndy12
Can anyone tell me if the Momitsu V880 uses the same Fuss loader as the Bravo D1? Does it suffer from the same lockup problems as the D1?

Cheers,
Andy.

In my Momitsu the loader is made by 'EPO Science and Technology Inc',
model number is DP-306A, so it is not the same as the D1 loader.
I have replaced it with a Toshiba SD-M1712 unit which does not stutter and stop/start with some material that the original loader had difficulty with, although it is a noisey when first loading up a disc.

I think if I was manufacturing these units I would try to incorporate a much better quality loader, I would not have thought they would be that much more expensive to 'buy off the shelf' from Toshiba, for example.

Brian

Another thing I am going to do is to put a quiet fan inside the Bravo case just to insure no heat related failures. Although since replacing the loader with the LiteOn I have had zero problems and have played I know atleast 40 DVD's all the way through.

Viper

I did more testing tonight.

I opened the Bravo and put it on a stool. Nice and cool. I was able to reproduce the menu stutter and startup problem pretty quickly.

Then, I attached the Pioneer 119 to an external USB case's power cable. In other words, the loader was not powered from the D1's internal board.

I have tested with a dozen DVD insertions, partial playback etc. and no problem so far.

Maybe the loader has been getting a bum rap. Maybe it's the power supply that has a problem... in some of the units...

Originally posted by Viper32
NickS, I only gave you the link to the Pioneer because it seemed like thats the one ya want. I personally own it and two LiteOns and I will say the LiteOns read everything but the Pioneer can be picky. My recommendation is the LiteOn XJ-HD166S , NewEgg sales it also for the same price and its a great unit, comes in black also. I put the LiteOn in my Bravo and have had ZERO problems since. I have not personally tried the Pioneer in the Bravo, just on the PC.

Viper
Viper,

I've ordered the LiteOn for my Bravo. Can you please let me know if you were able to fit it flush on the D1? If so, how did you do it? Can you post some shots?

Thanks in advance.

Viper,

Did you replace the drawer faceplate on your LineOn with the original? Does is fit well?

Thanks,
D

Yes I replaced the faceplate off the Bravo on the Lite-ON. I got it to fit nice and flush with no problems. I will try and post a pic or two later if I can find a way to host them.

Viper

I have monitored the power supply for voltage regulation problems noted somewhere at the beginning of this thread and did not see any problems with regulation at the time, however I did find that a lot of the electrolytic capacitors do run quite hot (hotter than I would design) and it does not seem to be from surrounding components. I did not look into that issue any further.

The Bravo D1 should not be placed adjacent to other equipment that will contribute to it's own generated heat.

John

Viper,

It's great news that the LiteOn fits well inside the Bravo. What did you use to attach it to the D1?

Originally posted by jrannison
The Bravo D1 should not be placed adjacent to other equipment that will contribute to it's own generated heat.

John

Between the Bravo, Philips DVD Recorder, Echostar PVR, Receiver, and rear Amp, I'm starting to get a lot of components that either generate a lot of heat or can just barely tolerate the heat they generate themselves.

There's just no way to mount all these components away from each other. It's really time for these manufactures to start installing fans...

I have my components in a fan ventilated cabinet but still must be careful of the component stacking order since the heat generated from one gets blown to the next.

PS: The Bravo is in the coolest spot near the intake fan and I've had one non-repeatable disc insertion failure (Independance Day) and no lockups.

Perhaps the manufacturer (who really isn't Vinc) just hasn't left enough design margin (power supply, worst case digital setup/hold timing, temperature, etc).

Originally posted by Viper32
NickS, I only gave you the link to the Pioneer because it seemed like thats the one ya want. I personally own it and two LiteOns and I will say the LiteOns read everything but the Pioneer can be picky. My recommendation is the LiteOn XJ-HD166S , NewEgg sales it also for the same price and its a great unit, comes in black also. I put the LiteOn in my Bravo and have had ZERO problems since. I have not personally tried the Pioneer in the Bravo, just on the PC.

Viper

What is the best color match for a LITE-ON to put in the Bravo -- beige or black?

Originally posted by Viper32
Another thing I am going to do is to put a quiet fan inside the Bravo case just to insure no heat related failures. Although since replacing the loader with the LiteOn I have had zero problems and have played I know atleast 40 DVD's all the way through.

Viper

Does the D1 come with a noisy fan and you are replacing it or are you adding a fan?

Would a 60 or 80 mm computer case fan work?

It does not have a fan in it from the facotry unless I missed it. :( I am not sure what I am going to use yet, I am sure I will have to mod the case at the back slightly to make this work but that will be no problem for me. Also you want to use the black Lite-On drive that way the tray will be black also.

Viper

David.....

Most manufactures design their equipment for an expected air temperature.
Many will list this information in the specifications section. I know my Plasma Display, Cable Box, etc. even state the space around the unit that is required, that being standing air, not forced air as in your case.
I Maintain and design many test systems, and have in some cases provided ducted air within the cabinet to insure adequate air temperature with stacked equipment.
It is up to system integrator (in this case the consumer) to solve the many problems or obtain services of a professional installer.

John

Originally posted by jrannison
David.....

Most manufactures design their equipment for an expected air temperature.


Well, yes - I understand that (I have ASICs in satellites, and one heading for the International Space Station - hopefully).

In general, I would prefer it if a stereo component is designed to allow of a rack mount with a couple of other components without overheating (I would consider this a common installation).

If that means adding a small/quiet exhaust fan, then I wish the manufacturers would do this. Most consumers are not going to mess with adding fans to cabinets.

Originally posted by Viper32
I personally own it and two LiteOns and I will say the LiteOns read everything but the Pioneer can be picky. Viper

I'll second this! I have a few other LiteOn drives (CDRWs) and they are all very fast, very reliable and are among the most tolerant of bad/dirty/scratched media. I've had CDs rejected by Plextors and others that are always read with no errors by the LiteOns. Most Sony CDRWs (especially, the 48x and 52x ones) are rebadged LiteOns.

Back to DVDs - I've had zero failures over dozens of DVDs since I replaced my D1's loader with the LiteOn. In fact, I have been too busy watching rental DVDs from BB to even post in this group.

-MediocreFred.

David....

Your right the manufactures "should" provide some contingency. I find that some of the mid level and a great deal of the upper end equipment seem to consider it. Even some of my Sony "ES" series have fans with a thermal switch.

John

I tried a fan last night (along with my trusted Pioneer drive) but still got the menu glitches on some DVDs.

Hello,

Just a quick update. Got some time this weekend to mount the LiteOn inside the D1. As other posters have said, it is literally, a trivial task. Just slide the faceplate off from the original FUSS and the LiteON and slide the Fuss's faceplate over the LiteOn. Just have to make sure that the faceplate snaps in completely - on both sides and in the middle. I used 4 small squares of Velcro to fix the drive to the D1. Close the case, replace the screws and it looks good as new.

Played 4 more DVDs this weekend - once again all from BB. One of them, "Dumb and Dumber" was scratched so bad that I knew I'd have to drive back to BB and swap it - the shiny surface looked like somebody had made multiple circular motions on it with a piece of sandpaper! Nevertheless, I was feeling a little sadistic and wanted to see the LiteOn humbled... stuck it in, closed it and sure enough it took a whole second extra (a total of three unbearable seconds) to spin up and start playing. But, play it, it did - with not one skip or freeze - all the way to the end. And I was left shaking my head like Jim Carrey saying, "No way..."

-MediocreFred.

MediocreFred,

Thanks for the update.

I think that some of us have power supply cards which have quality problems and others do not. That's why MediocreFred can put in a LiteOn that requires a power "surge" when it's spinning fast and he's got no problems - he has a good one.

I put a Lite-On, A Samsung, 2 Pioneer, 2 Toshiba drives in and I have problems when playing second DVDs etc. with ALL of them, including the Fuss loader.

When I plug in an external power supply to my loader - NO problems whatsoever!

I think V-Inc knows about it and is just moving inventory out. The reason that they offered the $20 off to our forum is, in my opinion, because they believe that we are less apt to return it because we want the non-HDCP DVI output. I am sure they read this but not a single acknowledgment of these problems.

For me, a full power off (by removing power cord and replugging) allows me to play a new DVD (usually). I still have 2 more weeks to decide if I will return my unit.

Rich....

Return the unit. I have tested a LOT of drives in my D1 since I started this thread and even ran TWO (2) drives...One Master and One Slave and they both worked......of course only the Master would actually be used, but they were both powered up.

John

Originally posted by Rich4av

When I plug in an external power supply to my loader - NO problems whatsoever!


Rich,

I'd like to test your theory further, as I still have some problems with the Sony loader. Can you elaborate on how to connect an "external power supply"? Please don't say to put the PC next to it, open it up and run the power cable from there (though I don't doubt that this works). What about replacing the D1's power supply? Any thoughts. I'm a relative newbie at cracking open component cases and replacing parts. But, I'm willing to experiment.

Clearly, something is different among our players that we all don't get consistent results. Faulty part is a likely culprit. The updated firmware assures that it isn't the problem. So, I'd like to eliminate the power supply.

Jason,

I have one of those external USB cases where you can plug in hard drives, DVD drives etc. I plugged its power connector into the D1's DVD drive.

The problem with the D1 is that you cannot replace the power card in there - there is a proprietary connection to the decoder card. So it needs to stay. You would need to put in another power supply card in the case and connect it to a power source (hard to do). The D1 case is low-profile.

One idea - is there a way to use a power "brick" that covers 120V -> 12V and somehow hook it up to the DVD drive? Would this work?

The DVD Loader requires 5 & 12 volts. If you do try using a computer P/S MAKE SURE THE TWO CHASSIS ARE CONNECTED TOGETHER WITH A JUMPER WIRE.
The D1 P/S has non-standard output voltages for operating It's hardware.

EDIT: I have had problems with the mating connector that plugs into the CD/DVD Drives, in that the connector socket was not tight around the 4 Power pins, with computers in the past. These connectors are used extensively in computers and are inexpensive and are not designed to be constantly connected and removed. But they can be "tightened up"


John

Thanks, John.

On the second power supply - is there anything I would need to jumper to get it to power the connectors or does it do it by itself? I assume that when you hit the power switch on a PC, it jumpers two signals to get the power supply to power up?

What's the model number on the Lite-on that everyone is having success with?

I tried a samsung drive and a hitachi drive... They were both superior to the stock drive, but mounting would be a pain since they didn't line up good.

LiteOn XJ-HD166S

Rich,

If you are trying out a second P/S for the Loader (DVD Drive), I would turn on the second P/S before turning on the D1. Beware that computer P/S are designed to have a minimum load (mother board, H.D.,etc.) or they will not regulate properly. So I would just tie in to a working computer and try using one of the "extra" Drive power connectors if that is what you are trying to do, and don't forget to connect the chassis together.
I feel that power supply problems are most likely rare for the D1's (based on what I have read @ AVS, and my testing 3 units) and it would be best to just have the unit replaced.

John

Viper,

I just installed my new XJ-HD166S into the D1 and it works and looks great (still trying to get it more flush with the front).

I'm just wondering if your Lite On makes a kind of "springy", squeaky sound when you were handling it. I mean I can just slightly move it in my hand and I hear what sounds like gears moving inside. I wonder if this is normal?

In the end, it doesn't seem to make this sound once mounted and working inside the D1.

Thanks,
D

DMILANI< Yes mine does that also, matter of a fact both Lite_ons I have do that.

Viper

Ok, now I know that it's "normal".

Thanks,
D

DMILANI

Yes, that sound in the LiteOn is PERFECTLY normal. There are small ball bearings inside for stability when spinning. I read this somewhere (can't remember where).


VIPER, MediocreFred,

Did you guys flash the LiteOn with the latest firmware from the Internet before connecting it to the D1, or are you using the firmware that the LiteOn shipped with?

Thanks.

One problem with this replace loader/power supply idea is that it let's V inc. off the hook.....

These defective units really should be sent back. If you get a 2nd defective I'd insist they cover the shipping cost, and send it back again.

David....Your ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!

John

John and all -

Think I am going to order one of these to stuff into the D1. Design seems to stress how quiet and vibration free it is.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/2000835DVD120ProductSpec.pdf

Also, spec says "The drive automatically slows down disc rotation speed to ensure data reading when unbalanced, warped or scratched disc is read."

Sounds like a good feature, although for all I know, this is standard behavior for all disk drives.

Any feedback on this unit? Barring anything overtly negative from you guys, I will try one and post results.

BB

Hi Brandon,

I think the Pioneer 120 is at Best Buy, you could just try it out. If you recall I have the 120S Slot Loader and it had the Chapter Skip @ Layer change issue; however the 120 uses different firmware.
As far as drives slowing down to minimize unbalance I have seen that on a few units...the Lite-On for one.

John

Originally posted by mpedris
DMILANI

Did you guys flash the LiteOn with the latest firmware from the Internet before connecting it to the D1, or are you using the firmware that the LiteOn shipped with?

Thanks.

As far as I know, this model XJHD-166S is the latest model and ships with the latest firmware as well. I remember reading that on cdfreaks.com. I know that there's a region-free patch firmware, but, I haven't tried it. Don't have any non-R1 DVDs yet...

Looks like the current firmware does the job of reading DVDs (which is all I want currently) just fine.

-MediocreFred.

Yes, I flashed mine with the latest firmware out before installing it.

Viper

I know I posted this sometime back...The original Fuss Audio Loader is Region-Free, so the Region check is initiated within the D1 processor. I don't think it will make a difference if you patch a new loader region-free unless you patch the D1 Firmware.

John

Pioneer is $70 at BB, $40 many other places.. Think I'm gonna mail order. Thanks though.

BB

I'll throw one out i haven't seen here yet. I have read that the audio quality of the bravo DI is "mediocre" at best. question is with changing the loader has anyone noticed an improvement in sound quality ?? things that make you go hmmmm :)

-charles

FWIW, I've been using the digital (optical) audio output connected to a Denon 4802R and haven't noticed any problems with the audio. I've played THX, DTS5.1 and DD 5.1 sources (DVDs) and haven't observed any imperfections. Even with the original FUSS loader, I've never experienced audio problems - atleast not with the optical jack; haven't tried coax or analog and so, can't comment on those.

-MediocreFred.

Digital Coax connection to the receiver is first rate. Cannot tell a difference between the D1 and the Pioneer 47Ai in terms of digital audio out.

good deal, thanks for the info.

-charles

I've finally put the first draft of my collected info online here (http://www.duke.edu/~java32/bravo/bravohacking.html). Keep in mind that it's still a work-in-progress.

I've tried to give proper credit whenever info came from a poster here. Hope you like it! ;)

Nice job Deathwind, Thanks!

Deathwind,

An excellent job! Very well done. Comprehensive. Thanks for all the effort.

I also have a Bravo D1 and the only problem that I have found is when viewing JPEG family pictures on a disc that had the JPEG files located in subdirectories. JPEG viewing is not what I purchased the D1 for, and so that does not bother me. DVD playback, however, has been excellent and problem free using the DVI input to my Toshiba 65HDX82 RPTV.

Following this thread for a while, I wonder now if perhaps some of the D1 problems might be due to "noise" being induced e.g. onto long lengths of DVI cable or otherwise. Such electrical noise might corrupt the internal bit stream so as to cause errors at the processor input and overwhelm the error correction control.

It would also be interesting to see if the reported problems are duplicated when DVI is not used and not connected, i.e. the player is viewed through a component video or s video connection.

-Zyg-

First of all thanks to Deathwind for the great summary.

Here is some additional info and tests that were conducted.

Part One.
Last weekend Brandon B. and I collectively tested three D1 units at one sitting. Our interest was to see if there were any differences in DVD STARTUP READING ERRORS with disks we did have some problems with in the past. None of these D1 units ever exhibited a habitual failure mode.
The three D1 units were all using their original Fuss Audio loader, my unit was updated to the latest firmware and the remainder units have the original firmware.
Between the two of us we had about eight DVD's to run through the units. Essentially we found that only one DVD created a problem for all the units at this sitting. This DVD (Lost in Space) had some deterioration of the reflective coating in some areas and a slight nick in the start area of the disk. I replaced the Loader in my unit with my current Toshiba 1712 Loader and essentially obtained the same results of one failure with Lost in Space.
Conclusion: All three D1 units reacted the same.

Part Two.
This past Tuesday I decided to try an additional test with my D1. This again was ONLY to test for DVD STARTUP READING ERRORS. I went through all my 27 DVD's (I know, not a large library, YET) and to find any that created a repeatable Startup problem with my Fuss Audio Loader (remember I have not had any consistent Fuss Audio failures) and then repeat the same tests with the failed DVD's of the original Loader, using all the Loaders I have collected.

I had 6 of 27 DVD's fail to some level: Saving Private Ryan (rarely fail); Casablanca,West Side Story,Day The Earth Stood Still (~20% failure); Ben-Hur,Doctor Zhivago(both 2 sided disks) (~90% failure) using the original Fuss Audio Loader.
I now used the same 6 DVD's to test the following Loaders: Toshiba SD-M1712(F/W 1.004), Sony DUU1621(F/W S3.3), Lite-On HD166S(F/W DS14). I did not use the Pioneer 120S as this Loader did exhibit a "Skip Chapter" issue @ layer changes previously.

Results: All the New Loaders essentially failed as the Fuss Audio.

Conclusion: "Start Failures" does not appear to be caused by the original Fuss Audio Loader, IF THE ORIGINAL LOADER IS FUNCTIONING CORRECTLY, for this type of failure mode.

Additional conclusion: To prove out that the 90% failure DVD's were not defective, I ran them thru my RP82 5 times with NO START FAILURE. This indicates to me that the Bravo D1 has additional issues with the processor and/or the operating Firmware!

I hope all this testing sheds some light for us, but especially for V,inc. and their supplier, to enable them to create a reliable mainstream quality product.

John

As an addendum to John's post, here is the operational history of the two units I brought. Once is a neighbor's, and has seen little use (about 6 movies), but has been completely problem free (he has no PJ yet, it subbed for mine while I waited for my exchange unit).

Mine is the exchange unit I received 7/3. It has had absolutely no failures other than the following:

LOTR FOTR EE did chapter skip at layer change, did not repeat skip when I backed past the LC.

Die Another Day (feh!) short audio dropout (5 sec) at one point in the film.

I have watched approximately 20+ movies in this time with no other problems. I do very little in the way of chapter jumping and winding, so this was mostly load disk, set audio option, start movie. My D1 is completely unpowered when not in use and in a wide open cool location at all times.

On the Lost in Space disk, my 2 decks did not lock up like John's did with the Fuss loader. They reacted with some dropped video, as did his using the toshiba.

So as his bottom line states - the loader is NOT the source of all the issues. But if your machine is particularly balky, a loader swap will prbably help somewhat I would think.

BB

Oh, and I have never had a single failure of any type with my Pioneer 301 disk changer, inarguably a more complicated device.

BB

John and Brandon,

What would be your definition of "startup reading errors"? Does it include inordinate loading times and subsequent failure to load?

The reason I ask is that with my D1 with the FUSS loader, I had problems with inordinate load times (2 to 5 MINUTES) (I define load time as when D1's display says "LOADING") and in most of these cases, the loading process would time out and the display would change to "NO DISC". Repeated cold-restarts (usingthe power switch on the D1) would result in marginal (1 in 10) success. Cleaning the discs, cleaning the lens, canned air, fervent praying - nothing worked.

With the LiteOn, the load times are between 1 and 2 seconds. And every single disc that I've thrown at it has played just fine. Very much like my 3 year old Sony DVD changer.

For the record, my D1 is on a shelf all by itself (it's a shelf with 5 racks and the D1 is on its own rack), with atleast 18" of clearance above and below it. The shelf is in an air-conditioned room with a fan blowing in its general direction from 3 feet away. The fan is to account for other components on the lower racks of the shelf. So, heat has never been an issue.

Also, last weekend, before mounting the LiteOn inside the D1 (it was outside for a couple of weeks while I was stress testing it), I tried the FUSS loader again just for kicks. Tried 4 rental DVDs that I was watching that weekend (every one of these had played/would play on the LiteOn) on it and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM failed to load with the FUSS loader.

Personally, I am convinced that the D1 - atleast my D1 - has a loader issue. I've never had audio stuttering issues or freezing issues and so, cannot comment on them.

All in all, as a ~ $260 (200 for the D1 + 20 for shipping and 40 for the LiteOn) DVI-DVD player, it has been a fantastic investment and I have no regrets. The picture quality more than makes up for the hours of "will it play this DVD, or won't it" anguish that I had early on.

Once again, mucho thanks to John (the OP) for experimenting with the loader and sharing his findings with us. But for that, I am pretty sure I'd have picked a scrap with VInc, returned the D1 and would have turned into a bitter, bitter individual.

-MediocreFred.

MediocreFred

What is the exact model number of the LiteOn unit that you are using?

Specifically for the Lost in Space disk, the unit would drop some video on the menu intro, or worse, freeze consistenntly on the same (or very very near) frame of video and lock up. This latter occurred only on John's deck with the Fuss.

Now, onto tonight's episode. Received my Pioneer 120 DVD ROM drive (nnn-slot loading). Tried it for giggles without resettinng the region code. Would go through the disk for a while jumping around then just stop (going by counter, didn't have video hooked up).

Anyway, it was plainly not working that way so I stuck it in my mac and set the region code to 1, then hooked it back up to the D1. Played portions of 5 DVDs with no fuss (ha ha).

BUT, then went to examine the issue of integrating it into the machine. No go. Even with the drawer plate removed from the pioneer, its tray still does not clear the D1's front panel slot. Since this was with the drive sitting flat on its metal casing flat on the raised case bosses the Fuss screws down to, the only way to make it work would have been to grind or mash down the D1 case, deform the pioneer housing sheet metal or modify the D1 front panel.

No thanks. Guess I will be ordering a Lite-on.

MediocreFred - What's that model again?

Anyone want to buy a Pioneer cheap?

BB

Shoulda listened to John and bought it at Best Buy. Thought I'd save $30 if it worked.

Brandon B,

I tried the Pioneer 120 last night (from newegg). I did load a RF firmware though. I got the same menu problems as you after a few DVDs but that's OK (power cycle fixes it).

One difference I noticed: My Pioneer 117 requires 1.3A at 12 Volts. The 120 requires 1.1A (it requires more amps at 5V) but the problem may be at 12V.

When I tied the drive into the case, I put some plastic gaskets below the drive in the back (raising the back by less than 2mm. Then, the tray clears the hole and works OK. It will not accept the tray's head piece without modification. The rim at the front of the tray touches the top just a tad, but opens fine (when you insert the top cover, it will raise the front panel enough to provide more clearance).

Don't junk that Pioneer 120 so quick. I tried the Lite-On and it did not work well, besides being noisy. I may try to physically set the region in case that's the problem area. My Pioneer 119 was not region free but did experience the same problems.

I did not test for the chapter skip problem during layer changes as reported by some. I also tried the Pioneer utility to place the drive in silent mode but it does not seem to work.

Hi Brandon............Sorry to find out about the Pioneer 120 that will not work. That is a bummer, and surprising too. As you know I have looked at a lot of Loaders lately and I think they all could of been made to fit. We know the form factor has to conform to PC half height ; must be the drawer is further from the base of the drive. I think the model that MediocreFred used is the same I ran the tests on.

And speaking of MediocreFred, when I ran the tests Tuesday my definition of start failure is " The DVD will not start the material as expected". If it took a long time to get going (which none did) and the material was correct, then that was NOT a failure.

Rich.......I just saw your post after I completed here. The 5 & 12 volt current ratings as apparently PEAK load because I measured a few of the Loaders at normal running and they are not anywhere close to the rated current.


John

Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr
MediocreFred

What is the exact model number of the LiteOn unit that you are using?

The model is LiteOn XJHD-166

-MediocreFred.

Originally posted by Rich4av
Brandon B,

I tried the Pioneer 120 last night (from newegg). I did load a RF firmware though. I got the same menu problems as you after a few DVDs but that's OK (power cycle fixes it).


Menu problems were only before I set the region code. After that, it performed absolutely fine.


When I tied the drive into the case, I put some plastic gaskets below the drive in the back (raising the back by less than 2mm. Then, the tray clears the hole and works OK. It will not accept the tray's head piece without modification. The rim at the front of the tray touches the top just a tad, but opens fine (when you insert the top cover, it will raise the front panel enough to provide more clearance).

Hmmmm. Thought about tilting it, but the whole integration of the head piece seemed offputting. I may look at it again.

Don't junk that Pioneer 120 so quick. I tried the Lite-On and it did not work well, besides being noisy. I may try to physically set the region in case that's the problem area. My Pioneer 119 was not region free but did experience the same problems.

I did not test for the chapter skip problem during layer changes as reported by some. I also tried the Pioneer utility to place the drive in silent mode but it does not seem to work.

Guess I'll use the thing for the long weekend and see what I think.

BB

Originally posted by jrannison
Hi Brandon............Sorry to find out about the Pioneer 120 that will not work. That is a bummer, and surprising too. As you know I have looked at a lot of Loaders lately and I think they all could of been made to fit. We know the form factor has to conform to PC half height ; must be the drawer is further from the base of the drive. I think the model that MediocreFred used is the same I ran the tests on.

John

Basically, if you set the Fuss and the Pioneer on a flat surface next to each other, the drawers (with face plates removed on both) match up perfectly. But the Fuss is sitting on the two little plastic guide pegs on its front feet that drop through the case bosses, so the Pioneer's drawer ends up being too high by the equivalent height of those pegs.

I do like the drive though.

My wife has forbidden me from making a combined frankenstein deck out of our Pioneer 301 disk juke box and the D1 that would have high capacity and DVI out. Oh well.

BB

Brandon...

Frankenstein is good with a pair of Rose Colored Glasses!

If you want to try my Lite-On give me a call. I'm stuck at home today recovering from a uncooperative foot.

John

Now I am thinking. Who makes the ceapest megachanger for just CDs. Work a slot load DVD ROM into that in conjunction with the D1 guts and outputs . . .

OK, update on the pioneer 120 non-slot model.

Watched Solaris tonight (very nicely mastered DVD BTW). The unit absolutely repeatably does a chapter skip at the layer change with the pioner drive connected.(tried it at least 12 times).

Now the interesting part. Reconnected the Fuss loader (which is still installed in the case) and the chapter skip at layer change does NOT occur, plays fine with same usual good layer change.

Given that John saw this problem with the 120S slot loader version of this drive, makes me think that whatever the D1 is having troubles with in the Fuss, there is something similar about Pioneer's drives. Keep in mind I have a "good" fuss loader, as my unit has been an almost completely reliable performer.

And yes this disk performs completely normally in my old DVD player (a Pioneer).

This would seem to add a lot of weight to John's contention that the loader is not the sole or even primary source of the problems. It would seem the D1 does not deal well with specific loaders, and many of te Fuss units are very problematic, but the issues can show with others as well.

Vinc may need to look into their firmware communication with the loader mechanism, not just replace the loader itself.

BB

Must of started the movie late..................post time!!

The interesting thing is that in a computer the Pioneer 120S is fine, so the communication feedback between the host (D1) must be an issue.

John

Brandon,

I also reproduced the layer change problem last night with The Two Towers (at 1:30) with the Pioneer 120 (tray) drive. Repeatable at will.

Back to the drawing board. I wish Vinc would let us know if they are working on this problem instead of being completely silent.

Originally posted by Rich4av
Brandon,

I also reproduced the layer change problem last night with The Two Towers (at 1:30) with the Pioneer 120 (tray) drive. Repeatable at will.

Back to the drawing board. I wish Vinc would let us know if they are working on this problem instead of being completely silent. Rich4av-
They are working on it, I just don't have an official answer for everyone yet.

Jim Noyd,

Thanks for the update. This makes me feel better about waiting for a fix as I really do like the player.

I know, we all feel the same way. I should know soon.

Jim..
I hope they (V,inc.) read this thread, it might give them some info. that I and others have tried with different Drives.
Of course we sort of are stuck in a reverse engineering mode.

Just a thought.

John

Believe me, everyone, including V Inc., appreciates what you guys are doing.

Starlogic Platinum - 16X DVD. $39.99 before $20.00 Rebate at Circuit City.

It Works great in the Bravo. Thanks to everyone's posts here, I tried installing an old Sony loader from a PC I had in the basement. That unit locked up during the first movie, much as the Fuss had.

Today, I purchased the Starlogic Drive (they didn't have the Lite-On) from Circuit City and installed it in the the D1. It fits and opens perfectly when shimmed with some thick mounting tape or Velcro and the faceplate fits too.

Three movies today with no lockups - an impossible feat with the Fuss loader for me, which would lock at some point during EVERY movie. I'm seeing very fast access times -- chapter scans, layer change, and loading is all wicked fast, much snappier than before.

Hopefully, this marks the end of the saga for me. -- Crossing fingers.

Well I think the Bravo has several problems. My list is below, Now the appropriate thing for Vinc to do in my opinion is to get these problems fixed. Then either replace or compensate us that are doing all the work for them. Yes the Bravo is a good priced DVD Player but if you count all the problems and stress it causes most, its not worth much at all. Now that I replaced my loader in the unit I am not having any trouble, but I surely did not buy the player to have to replace parts. That just makes the bargain we all thought we were getting mute to say the least.

Problems:

1. Crappy loader (player) probably could be fixed with a firmware upgrade...

2. Power supplies in the unit seems weak, also causing problems on some units.

3. Audio problems, I want even get into this...

4. You fill in the rest, the above is all I have encountered so far.....

The bad thing about all of the problems is most if not all could be fixed with simple firmware updates ! Geez.....

A little off topic, but has anyone found a suitable replacement remote for their Bravo? I just hate the buttons, and I'd love to find a <$30 universal remote that I could replace it with.

Will any remote work?

I would use a "Learning Remote". Some users have a problem that the Bravo remote actuates their Pioneer equipment in part. It appears that the IR code may have come from????

John

If you're looking at getting a cheap remote, go to Radio Shack. Otherwise, check out this site...

http://www.remotecentral.com/

Update on the Starlogic Platnum drive replacement. The Player got a workout this weekend with a kid's birthday party. It went all day yesterday without a single hick-up. 5 Movies so far, and all is well.

Bad news from me. My previously "mostly dependable" D1 has now decided it enjoys the chapter skip at layer change that it learned with the pioneer drive, even though I am presently back to using the Fuss. TTT, and Gladiator produced it.

Also one video lockup on TTT, pressing stop and play cured it though, no power down required.

Hmmm. Guess I'll try one more loader change.

BB

Brandon B,

I am back to my Toshiba drive. So far so good on individual DVD playback - no hangs or skips.

I do need to power cycle between DVDs (I hooked up the D1 to my Cable Box's power outlet, so it's easy to power off the cable box and power it back on to completely power-cycle the D1).

Rich....

I have been using the Toshiba 1712 for a while, considering all the units I went through, and so far I like it the best, and it will load Firmware updates. Unfortunately it is not the easiest to retrofit for installing the front part of the tray of the Fuss Audio Loader.

I guess I better update the first page of this thread with the additional information.

John

Think I'll see what shakes out of Vinc's firmware work before I buy another loader.

BB

jrannison,

My Toshiba 1102 (which is also a CD-RW unit) fits perfectly and takes the front tray piece without any modifications. It is an expensive drive to put in but it is also very quiet during DVD playback.

All --

Some of you had PM'd me asking what happend with my replacement D1 from V Inc. Please see my Post here for my experience with D1 #2.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2657171#post2657171

Originally posted by jrannison
I would use a "Learning Remote". Some users have a problem that the Bravo remote actuates their Pioneer equipment in part. It appears that the IR code may have come from????

John,

Yes, the Bravo D1 unfortunately shares IR codes with my Pioneer Receiver... and in a very serious way... the "volume up" button on my receiver equates to "Eject" on my DVD player.... That's pretty much the worst combination there could be other than the Power Key. :(

However, I've finally found a real solution to this problem... for those of you in the market for a new remote, and willing to pay more than the D1 for the remote (that may have cut down the audience a bit.... but it does solve the problem!), check out the Home Theater Master MX-800. It's an IR / RF remote control that has individually programmable IR emitters. i.e. when you are operating the receiver functions, it will only transmit to the receiver, and when you are using DVD functions, it will only transmit to the DVD player...

The MX-800 retails for $500, but you can get them off eBay for < $300. I just got mine for $285 from a custom installer in Denver, who I'm sure would be willing to sell more at that price (and forego the costs of eBay if he could do a direct sale). Feel free to PM me and I'll point you in his direction.

Jason

Jason,
That looks like one smooth remote setup! :D
I'm looking into it right now, it would solve my unit placement issues that work against having a normal universal remote (i.e. with this remote there would be no complex mirror setups, repeaters, or gymnastics into confined spaces so I can get my devices to pick up the IR codes). ;)
This, a new screen, or new speakers....decisions, decisions :)

I want to second the HT MX800...I have the MX700 and it is an excellent remote control...the 800 adds the RF/IR functionality but it is basically the same. Check out the reviews at remotecentral.

-sonny

Originally posted by sbaillar
I want to second the HT MX800...I have the MX700 and it is an excellent remote control...the 800 adds the RF/IR functionality but it is basically the same. Check out the reviews at remotecentral.

Just one more thing... it not only adds the RF functionality (which gives you 2x or 3x the distance with your remote, works through walls, etc.), but also gives the ability to individually specify which devices are hit with the IR when you press a button on your remote.

So, if you have the problems noted below, when you hit volume up on your remote, that IR goes only to your receiver, and not to your DVD player, which keeps the DVD player from ejecting if it happens to share the same code with your receiver. :rolleyes:

Sbaillar may well have been saying exactly that, but I just wanted to be clear for those of us (like Deathwind and I), who have been doing "gymnastics" to get one component to respond and not another. :D

If you don't have the problem with shared codes, and don't need your remote to work through cabinet doors or from great distances, (and if you don't have a plasma TV that ruins your standard IR remote's functionality), then I would be all means buy the MX-500 or MX-700, as you will save ~$200 going that way. If you need any of the above, give the 800 a try... either way, I think you'll be very happy. Just don't tell your wife how much any of these remotes cost... :)

FYI...

There is also the MX600 coming out soon which is does the same thing to the MX500...adds IR/RF to the MX500.

-sonny

I hate to continue off topic in this thread, but I have to chime in about the MX800. Easy set up, solid performance and ergo-lishious. Light weight, excellent one hander and logical buttons. Got mine from Jason Turk at our host AVS, great deal, great guy to deal with. Try it, you'll love it!

Sounds like the D1 has found a new DVD Loader.......MX800:eek:

John

John... LOL. :) Point taken. Back to the loader topic. Err... but did I mention how great the MX-800 is? :D

myrison.......I have a MX-800 (the remote, not the loader) , I know:D

John

Just replaced my Fuss Loader with the LiteOn. So far, it has worked fine (knock wood)!

Thanks jrannison for pointing all of us in the right direction.

MediocreFred, your contribution was most helpful since I have the same drive as you. I also used 4 small pieces of velcro to hold the drive in place.

DeathWind, your website was incredible. An ocean of useful information.

And, JasonATL, without your step-by-step instructions, I would have taken a LOT longer to complete the task.

Thank you all for the invaluable advice.

oh, take the award and get off the stage. :D