well I got the New Hr20 tonight, Great box, everything looks really really good on it, even HD is better then on my HR10, anyways everything is smooth, all Locals look great live, really no difference between Mpeg4 and OTa. My only problem is abc, while great live, it is full of glitches when you record, sorta like a very low signal on atenna. I would say its directv, but it cant be I dont think....again it looks great live, so it has to be in the data stream from abc right?

Yes. That's the point. Most of the CBS/AFC games are not broadcast in HD thereby wasting 27-1's HD capability. Conversely, most of the FOX football games are in HD, but 27-2 only broadcasts in SD.
O.K., I see your point. On CBS doubleheader days there is a possibility that the second game may be in HD, such as the NE @ NYJ game.

In case anybody is interested, I got the information on which game is in which market from J.P.Kirby's excellent site:
http://www.gribblenation.net/nflmaps/

In case any of you get a different OOM CBS & FOX via satellite you can see which game is scheduled for each market.

well I got the New Hr20 tonight, Great box, everything looks really really good on it, even HD is better then on my HR10, anyways everything is smooth, all Locals look great live, really no difference between Mpeg4 and OTa. My only problem is abc, while great live, it is full of glitches when you record, sorta like a very low signal on atenna. I would say its directv, but it cant be I dont think....again it looks great live, so it has to be in the data stream from abc right?


Glad things went well. I think those "gliches" that you see are probably something in the DVR that's just not translating the digitally encoded information properly. I get them all the time, and sometimes it seems like I have a bunch of shows then other times I don't see them for weeks. I never watch anything "live" except sports and I don't see the same glitches watching live events that I do when recording a show.

stuart628,
What have you seen LIVE with your HR20 ??? I set up my H20 2 weeks ago and am very disheartened about live baseball & football. It takes on somekind of strange pre-recorded look (compressed bandwidth ??) . Theres even a flashing tracer from the baseball as its headed toward home plate. Anykind of motion in a live sports telecast is a bit jittery.
I see a tremendous difference between the OTA signal and D*'s digital feed.
Again, what LIVE telecasts have you seen ???

stuart628,
What have you seen LIVE with your HR20 ??? I set up my H20 2 weeks ago and am very disheartened about live baseball & football. It takes on somekind of strange pre-recorded look (compressed bandwidth ??) . Theres even a flashing tracer from the baseball as its headed toward home plate. Anykind of motion in a live sports telecast is a bit jittery.
I see a tremendous difference between the OTA signal and D*'s digital feed.
Again, what LIVE telecasts have you seen ???

Just curious. You say YOU set up your H20. Did you not have a professional install, or just replaced current equipment?

stuart628,
What have you seen LIVE with your HR20 ??? I set up my H20 2 weeks ago and am very disheartened about live baseball & football. It takes on somekind of strange pre-recorded look (compressed bandwidth ??) . Theres even a flashing tracer from the baseball as its headed toward home plate. Anykind of motion in a live sports telecast is a bit jittery.
I see a tremendous difference between the OTA signal and D*'s digital feed.
Again, what LIVE telecasts have you seen ???

i watched the Tribe Game last night..it was LIVE, I watched duet with the stars (well my wife flipped there till I told her to get back to the office, and it was LIVE. Also no problems here, baseball has a stutter problem( ITS NOT BAD) but as far as picture quality I think this looks great. My friend you have maybe a bad box? I dont see a flashing tracer. I do see the jittery problem, but again, its not bad, and I think its on STO, and WKYCs end, or it could be a kink in the system they are still working out, Time warners first telecasts didnt go over smoothly in fact I remember seeing even worse jittery video.

i watched the Tribe Game last night..it was LIVE, I watched duet with the stars (well my wife flipped there till I told her to get back to the office, and it was LIVE. Also no problems here, baseball has a stutter problem( ITS NOT BAD) but as far as picture quality I think this looks great. My friend you have maybe a bad box? I dont see a flashing tracer. I do see the jittery problem, but again, its not bad, and I think its on STO, and WKYCs end, or it could be a kink in the system they are still working out, Time warners first telecasts didnt go over smoothly in fact I remember seeing even worse jittery video.

Where did you get your HR20? They still aren't available to purchase directly through D* correct? Also, did you have the new satellite installed proffeionally?

i watched the Tribe Game last night..it was LIVE, I watched duet with the stars (well my wife flipped there till I told her to get back to the office, and it was LIVE. Also no problems here, baseball has a stutter problem( ITS NOT BAD) but as far as picture quality I think this looks great. My friend you have maybe a bad box? I dont see a flashing tracer. I do see the jittery problem, but again, its not bad, and I think its on STO, and WKYCs end, or it could be a kink in the system they are still working out, Time warners first telecasts didnt go over smoothly in fact I remember seeing even worse jittery video.

I'm not seeing any stuttering problems on STO or WKYC live. When I record I do sometimes.

NFL HD looks best on CBS because they invested in special Sony Camera's that are just far superior to those used by Fox. This is also the reason why all Fox games are in HD and CBS only has 2 or 3. Camera expense. You be the Judge NFC= almost all games in HD PQ good. AFC= a few games in HD PQ great. I love HD and PQ but I will have to go with fox on this one, they made the right choice. In this day and age with all local games available in local areas, if you have a bad team in the AFC you will not be likely to see HD.

Could not imagine how good CBS's broadcast would look in 720P

CBS doesn't have those cameras across the board. They rent from different mobile vendors, two of which have trucks spec'd out for CBS' broadcasts. Yes, on NEP Supershooter 24, their "A" game truck, they do have very good Sony HDC-900 cameras. If you were side-by-side with the CBS "A" truck and Fox "A" truck, you'd be hard pressed to see a real difference in picture quality. The reality is Fox uses even better cameras on many of their shows when using Game Creek Video trucks who have the Sony HDC-1500 cameras.

In talking with the CBS "A" director, and CBS' chief of engineering. The reason you only see 2 or 3 HD games is not because of expense of having Sony cameras, yet the CBS Broadcast Center in New York, can't handle more than three feeds. From studio/commercial integration to regionalizing the transmission feed to affiliates. They admit they're way behind the times on that.


Most of your PQ loss, if any, comes in encoding/transmission. I wouldn't blame Fox or CBS, I'd blame your local station, cable operator, satellite provider first. See how they process the signal before jumping to the conclusion that one has better cameras.

HDTD, maybe you know the answer to this - do cable companies typically re-compress the MPEG2 HD stream that comes in from the source? Or do they just "convert" (not re-compress) it to "QAM". Not sure if I am using the correct terms...

I understand DirecTV re-compresses the incoming MPEG2 to MPEG2 again for delivery to the customer, so I understand why their HD picture looks relatively crappy, but I've never been sure about what the cable companies do.

HDTD, maybe you know the answer to this - do cable companies typically re-compress the MPEG2 HD stream that comes in from the source? Or do they just "convert" (not re-compress) it to "QAM". Not sure if I am using the correct terms...

I understand DirecTV re-compresses the incoming MPEG2 to MPEG2 again for delivery to the customer, so I understand why their HD picture looks relatively crappy, but I've never been sure about what the cable companies do.

Cable companies do not convert the signal. It's been discussed here many times before.

Where did you get your HR20? They still aren't available to purchase directly through D* correct? Also, did you have the new satellite installed proffeionally?

I got it from *********************. and with 2 day shipping (shipped one day earlier then the national release date of the 13th, it was at my house yesterday! and yes bluegrass did the satellite install, I would have but the tweeking on that bad boy is a beast! They did a great job, I am very very happy right now.

I'm not seeing any stuttering problems on STO or WKYC live. When I record I do sometimes.

It was when they first started, a couple people reported seeing it if I remember correctly. I know it was that way when I was over my neighbors house.

It was when they first started, a couple people reported seeing it if I remember correctly. I know it was that way when I was over my neighbors house.

Oh, heck yes. When they first started they had all kinds of problems. They pretty well worked them out.

HDTD, maybe you know the answer to this - do cable companies typically re-compress the MPEG2 HD stream that comes in from the source? Or do they just "convert" (not re-compress) it to "QAM". Not sure if I am using the correct terms...

I understand DirecTV re-compresses the incoming MPEG2 to MPEG2 again for delivery to the customer, so I understand why their HD picture looks relatively crappy, but I've never been sure about what the cable companies do.


Personally I don't know for sure, maybe some our of station engineers on the forum can enlighten us, but I'm pretty certain they'd have to...just for bandwidth I think they'd be forced to recompress. How else would it leave the shop if they're not re-encoding/re-compressing?

I can tell just by looking there's no way I'm getting a full un/re compressed signal from TimeWarner than if I took the same stream that they take.

If they don't at least cross convert it, then how does 720p programming hit a 1080i only box?

If they don't at least cross convert it, then how does 720p programming hit a 1080i only box?

Programming is transmitted at it's native scan-rate and the scan-rate conversion happens inside of the set-top box, depending on the output resolution selected by the user. That choice is based upon the resolutions and scan rates supported by the customer's set.

The only sets that I've seen that don't support all resolution are some of the CRT-based sets. This seems to be related to the fact that the yoke and it's associated driver circuits are part of a tuned circuit and cannot easily/cheaply be switched between progressive and interlaced.

Programming is transmitted at it's native scan-rate and the scan-rate conversion happens inside of the set-top box, depending on the output resolution selected by the user. That choice is based upon the resolutions and scan rates supported by the customer's set.

The only sets that I've seen that don't support all resolution are some of the CRT-based sets. This seems to be related to the fact that the yoke and it's associated driver circuits are part of a tuned circuit and cannot easily/cheaply be switched between progressive and interlaced.

Correct, and fwiw my CRT which is 1080i native does translate 780p, quite nicely. I have my box deliver the signal "as is" and allow my set to do the conversion. My SA 8300 is set up for 780p, 1080i and 480p.

Personally I don't know for sure, maybe some our of station engineers on the forum can enlighten us, but I'm pretty certain they'd have to...just for bandwidth I think they'd be forced to recompress. How else would it leave the shop if they're not re-encoding/re-compressing?

It is highly likely that it is the same compressed stream sent from the station remodulated to QAM for cable transmission. IIRC QAM256 allows for more than one HD program on the frequency which is greater bandwidth than OTA.

It is highly likely that it is the same compressed stream sent from the station remodulated to QAM for cable transmission. IIRC QAM256 allows for more than one HD program on the frequency which is greater bandwidth than OTA.

I am also curious as to whether any cable companies in the Cleveland market are "rate-shaping", which would imply a recompression step at the headend. Ken H in another thread the other day listed off a bunch of cable companies that do this (including TWC and WOW, but not necessarily here in Cleveland)

WOW does not currently employ rate-shaping on their HD channels, but I do not know about TWC. Differences in PQ compared to an OTA broadcast is more than likely due to the actual set-top box (SA3250/SA8300) than the incoming signal from the cable company.

Oh, heck yes. When they first started they had all kinds of problems. They pretty well worked them out.

I think thats the same with Mpeg4, its a new thing, they are still working out the kinks, but if things are only to get better, I am very very happy, bring on the 150 Hd channels (capacity) in 2007!

Hey folks, I wrote earlier about the strange look of the D* digital locals. Yesterday was a perfect example 3 college football games across the board NBC (1080i), ABC (720p) & CBS (1080i). When I jump back and forth between OTA & D* digital feed (H20 w/5lnb dish) you can easily see a pre-recorded flat look with jittery action on both WKYC & WOIO. On OTA offerings 3.1 & 19.1 were flawless & live looking like they should be. ABC's signal was exactly the same (fine) OTA vs. D* feed (thats more like it). This isn't an equipment issue. I have two other sources on my block with the same problem.
Just wondering if D* is having some difficulty with processing a 1080i signal for Cleveland & other major markets. It seems that way. I've seen this on other forums.
Any input???

Hey folks, I wrote earlier about the strange look of the D* digital locals. Yesterday was a perfect example 3 college football games across the board NBC (1080i), ABC (720p) & CBS (1080i). When I jump back and forth between OTA & D* digital feed (H20 w/5lnb dish) you can easily see a pre-recorded flat look with jittery action on both WKYC & WOIO. On OTA offerings 3.1 & 19.1 were flawless & live looking like they should be. ABC's signal was exactly the same (fine) OTA vs. D* feed (thats more like it). This isn't an equipment issue. I have two other sources on my block with the same problem.
Just wondering if D* is having some difficulty with processing a 1080i signal for Cleveland & other major markets. It seems that way. I've seen this on other forums.
Any input???

I don't think there is any question that the signal is converted so I think it really has to do with how good your television is in receiving the coverted signal. I think that if you have a really good HD television you probably will see these signal problems better then someone like me who has a CRT unit.

Just speculating because I don't have D* myself, but I have read this theory many times in these forums.

actually CRts have been known to display a beter image, but that is a converation for another time! :)

Also, I do kinda see what you are talking about, like out of every 16 frams, 2 are missing, but its not that big of a deal, MPEG4 is still new to directv and I think what you are seeing is a result of first generation tuners, they are working on upgrading everything as we speak!

Why is Bull Riding on FOX 8?

Why is Bull Riding on FOX 8?
I don't believe they're allowed to carry another NFL game at the same time a home-team is playing.

Hey folks, I wrote earlier about the strange look of the D* digital locals. Yesterday was a perfect example 3 college football games across the board NBC (1080i), ABC (720p) & CBS (1080i). When I jump back and forth between OTA & D* digital feed (H20 w/5lnb dish) you can easily see a pre-recorded flat look with jittery action on both WKYC & WOIO. On OTA offerings 3.1 & 19.1 were flawless & live looking like they should be. ABC's signal was exactly the same (fine) OTA vs. D* feed (thats more like it). This isn't an equipment issue. I have two other sources on my block with the same problem.
Just wondering if D* is having some difficulty with processing a 1080i signal for Cleveland & other major markets. It seems that way. I've seen this on other forums.
Any input???

I have read over at www.dbstalk.com that the problem has been identified as an issue with the encoders used to uplink the signal from local affiliates to D*. They are in the process of changing out the equipment station by station acrross the country.

Why is Bull Riding on FOX 8?
FOX 8 decided no one would watch whatever NFC game they put up against the Browns in Cleveland at 1:00 so they opted to show their game at 4:00 instead and go up against the Jets vs. Pats game. Cleveland still got it's 3 games OTA during the day, just only 1 in the 1:00 time slot. Obviously not showing a 1 O'Clock game forced alternate programming so we got bull riding...

FOX 8 decided no one would watch whatever NFC game they put up against the Browns in Cleveland at 1:00 so they opted to show their game at 4:00 instead and go up against the Jets vs. Pats game. Cleveland still got it's 3 games OTA during the day, just only 1 in the 1:00 time slot. Obviously not showing a 1 O'Clock game forced alternate programming so we got bull riding...

Like k2rj said, it's against the "rules" for another network to show another game at the same time slot as the home team's game. Of course the "rules" are subject to exceptions, like last week when CBS showed a game at 1pm at the same time as the Browns game on Fox at 1pm. But as was explained to me in the NFL Maps thread, the reason was because CBS had golf or tennis or something at 4pm so CBS got to break the "rules" last week. CBS and Fox also alternate doubleheaders from week to week, so that affects what is broadcast. The rules are so convoluted I've given up trying to figure them out and just accept what's in my on-screen guide on Sunday morning.

Cable companies do not convert the signal. It's been discussed here many times before.

The best discussion I've seen on OTA v. cable v. satellite HD picture quality is at
http://tech.yahoo.com/qa/20060816170814AAYfi9P. The basic answer is that it all depends on what the local TV station, cable company or satellite provider is doing any given time. Personally, for PQ, I feel OTA is the best. For convenience and ease of use though, I have to go with cable.

The best discussion I've seen on OTA v. cable v. satellite HD picture quality is at
http://tech.yahoo.com/qa/20060816170814AAYfi9P. The basic answer is that it all depends on what the local TV station, cable company or satellite provider is doing any given time. Personally, for PQ, I feel OTA is the best. For convenience and ease of use though, I have to go with cable.

I'm not quite sure we were discussing all three. Just cable vs. D*.

But since you brought up OTA I haven't a clue other then what I read, which generally says very little difference between OTA and cable. It would depend on your own equipment (again).

FOX 8 decided no one would watch whatever NFC game they put up against the Browns in Cleveland at 1:00 so they opted to show their game at 4:00 instead and go up against the Jets vs. Pats game. Cleveland still got it's 3 games OTA during the day, just only 1 in the 1:00 time slot. Obviously not showing a 1 O'Clock game forced alternate programming so we got bull riding...

But stupidly, the Browns game wasn't broadcast in HD on CBS. The games afterward and on Fox were, but the Browns weren't and it looked horrible. It looked especially bad on my set since CBS always broadcasts in 1080i, and my A2000 has certain setups it uses to get the most out of the picture (deinterlacing, noise reduction, etc). It doesn't expect a 480i signal to be broadcast on (or maybe strangly converted to) 1080i.

Like k2rj said, it's against the "rules" for another network to show another game at the same time slot as the home team's game. But we don't have a professional football team in our town, so we should be able to watch pro teams play at the same time our amateurs are playing. Frankly, watching bull riding would be less painful than watching the Browns. :rolleyes: ;)

But stupidly, the Browns game wasn't broadcast in HD on CBS. The games afterward and on Fox were, but the Browns weren't and it looked horrible. It looked especially bad on my set since CBS always broadcasts in 1080i, and my A2000 has certain setups it uses to get the most out of the picture (deinterlacing, noise reduction, etc). It doesn't expect a 480i signal to be broadcast on (or maybe strangly converted to) 1080i.

Since CBS only broadcasts 3 games in HD per weekend, I don't think you'll be seeing the Browns in high definition very much...

2 that definitely will be:

Dec. 7 - NFL Network (if you can get it) It will be shown locally on Channel 8 (I think!), but I'd be surprised if they showed it in HD, especially since the ESPN games were never broadcast on the local station in HD

Dec 24 - Fox game

Since CBS only broadcasts 3 games in HD per weekend, I don't think you'll be seeing the Browns in high definition very much...

2 that definitely will be:

Dec. 7 - NFL Network (if you can get it) It will be shown locally on Channel 8 (I think!), but I'd be surprised if they showed it in HD, especially since the ESPN games were never broadcast on the local station in HD

Dec 24 - Fox game

Why only 3? Does it cost more to broadcast? Last week it was in HD and was very nice to watch. Is there a place online to lookup which games will be in HD?

Why only 3? Does it cost more to broadcast? Last week it was in HD and was very nice to watch. Is there a place online to lookup which games will be in HD?

It is my understanding that there is a equipment limitation for CBS that only allows them to do 3 games. I don't know if this is merely trucks, distribution, or what.


Check here for HD games: http://www.hdsportsguide.com

It is my understanding that there is a equipment limitation for CBS that only allows them to do 3 games. I don't know if this is merely trucks, distribution, or what.


Check here for HD games: http://www.hdsportsguide.com
From various forums I thought I read somewhere that Fox's HD cameras are "lower" quality then cbs, and they went and spent more for the "higher" quality...they decided quality/quanity....take it with a grain of salt, thats just what I have read.

Another source for HD games: http://www.gribblenation.net/nflmaps/
In addition you will see what games are carried in every market. If you live in an area where you can receive stations from 2 markets, you may just get to see an extra game. For example i was able to see the Giants come from behind to beat the Eagles in overtime on the WYFX subchannel. It was only in SD, however it was better than not getting access to the game.

As for why WJW carried the 4 PM game yesterday, it had nothing to do with the Browns, as that game was on the road. FOX had the singleheader. I agree with DaMavs, they couldn't compete with the Browns so they wisely opted for the 4 PM game. This set up a "FOX doubleheader" for anyone getting both WJW and WYFX (a'la WKBN-DT) in a week where FOX only had a singleheader. I bounced back and forth between the Browns and the Giants/Eagles game, watching the O.T. ending after the agony in Cincinnati was over.

But we don't have a professional football team in our town, so we should be able to watch pro teams play at the same time our amateurs are playing. Frankly, watching bull riding would be less painful than watching the Browns. :rolleyes: ;)

Old joke I use to say all the time when I lived in N. KY. Appropriate now.

What does Cleveland have in common with Los Angeles?

Neither has a professional football team. :D :D :D

C'mon fellows, you got nothing else better to do.

Pray for my Dodgers!!!!

Now back to our regular topic.... :)

Since CBS only broadcasts 3 games in HD per weekend, I don't think you'll be seeing the Browns in high definition very much...

2 that definitely will be:

Dec. 7 - NFL Network (if you can get it) It will be shown locally on Channel 8 (I think!), but I'd be surprised if they showed it in HD, especially since the ESPN games were never broadcast on the local station in HD

Dec 24 - Fox game


I think it's next to impossible for Fox 8 to currently receive and redistribute NFL Network HD games, unless it were to come down the Fox network path. I think they're set-up for that only.

Same reason may be why they don't have Seinfeld syndication in HD. I know they were working on it, but haven't watched it recently to see if they ever made the jump to HD with respect to non-Fox network programming.

I think it's next to impossible for Fox 8 to currently receive and redistribute NFL Network HD games, unless it were to come down the Fox network path. I think they're set-up for that only.

Same reason may be why they don't have Seinfeld syndication in HD. I know they were working on it, but haven't watched it recently to see if they ever made the jump to HD with respect to non-Fox network programming.

Syndicated programing is vastly different than a live feed. I will agree that FOX due to their splicer system seems very unlikely to pick up the NFL network's 1080i HD feed, but that has very little to do with syndicated programming. Affiliates need HD recording/capturing equipment to be able to air HD syndicated shows that are transmitted several days in advance.

Our NBC affiliate in Cinci has said they plan on carrying our NFL network game in HD, but I would think that should only require a repointing of the satellite. Our CBS affiliate has bought the rights to ESPN's Monday Night Bengal games, but do not carry them in HD due to the 720p feed.

Like k2rj said, it's against the "rules" for another network to show another game at the same time slot as the home team's game..
But of course the Browns were in Cincy last Sunday so they were not the home team. And as you note, the prior week when the Browns were home, CBS did air a 1 PM game head-up against them as Fox had the double-header and CBS had other sports programming in the 4PM slot.

I believe the rule is if your local team is home, you only get 2 games UNLESS the network they are on has the double-header that week. That's why last week we got 2 Fox games plus the CBS 1. Had the Browns been on CBS last week, we'd have only gotten 1 game on each network. If your local team is on the road (or playing Monday or Sunday night) you get 3 games as normal. Those weeks of only 2 games drove me to the NFL Sunday Ticket so I can watch 'em all...

CBS's HD limitations of only 3 games per week are in their network broadcast center where they don't have the capability to handle more than 3 HD feeds currently. It's this same limitation that causes half of March Madness to be in SD rather than all sites in their proper HD glory. You'd think CBS, typically an HD leader, would bite the bullet and make the HD investment to get some of their big time properties like the NFL & NCAA in all HD ASAP. I keep hoping at least, but it's been a long wait with no signs of changing soon it seems...

I'm new to this forum, and frankly I can't find any information about this anywhere else so I'm hoping someone can help me. I have Cox Cable in Lakewood as my service and an SA8300HD DVR box. I am having a problem where a couple of shows have not been shown in HD. The last two (first two of the season) episodes of The Wire on HBO have NOT been shown in HD and the season premiere of Stuido 60 on the Sunset Strip on NBC (which royally ticked me off since I've been waiting to watch this show for a year) last night was NOT in HD either. (This one was particularly bad because it was shown letterboxed with the scrunched effect making everyone look like smurfs. I know I can just use the Zoom button on my remote, but that cuts off the sides of the image and negates the whole idea of widescreen HDTV.)

Also, I don't know if this is related or not, but on a few stations, I have seen the message "Loss of Input Signal" flashed on the screen. The worst instance of this happened during the last five minutes of the Amazing Race season premiere. I know Amazing Race isn't in HD, but it was on ABC HD.

The bottom line is I wanted to know if anyone out there had the same problem, either with Cox, another cable/sat company, or OTA. I know enough to figure out that this isn't a box problem, but probably a network or broadcaster issue. Of course the service rep at Cox didn't have any idea what was wrong, but still managed to blame "the networks" anyway. Thanks for any help.

...I am having a problem where a couple of shows have not been shown in HD. The last two (first two of the season) episodes of The Wire on HBO have NOT been shown in HD and the season premiere of Stuido 60 on the Sunset Strip on NBC ... last night was NOT in HD either. ...

From my brief search "The Wire" is not an HD program on HBO. Since you're new I am going to assume you might not know, just because a show is on a HD channel doesn't mean it is going to be in HD (this rule applies to any HD channel).

Now for your Studio 60 issue, this show should have been in HD. This would be most likely caused by your local affiliate. I would recommend calling your local affiliate when you find a show that should be in HD and isn't to let them know they need to turn on their HD feed. Sometimes the affiliate has a manual switching system and their operator forgets to "throw the switch."

Also, I don't know if this is related or not, but on a few stations, I have seen the message "Loss of Input Signal" flashed on the screen. The worst instance of this happened during the last five minutes of the Amazing Race season premiere. I know Amazing Race isn't in HD, but it was on ABC HD.

Is this a SA8300HD message or a message from your HDTV? Personally I haven't seen this message on my SA8300HD in Cinci, but we probably have vastly different systems. I would call Cox and complain that you are having signal issues on your CBS digital channel.

terryfoster-

Thanks for the reply. As for the "Loss of Input Signal", I've seen it on NBC and another network as well. The supervisor who finally called me back said it might be a sat issue and he's looking into it.

As for The Wire, I could have sworn that the other seaons were in HD, but I guess I'm mistaken. I'll post a response from Cox or the local affiliate about the Studio 60 issue.

...the season premiere of Stuido 60 on the Sunset Strip on NBC (which royally ticked me off since I've been waiting to watch this show for a year) last night was NOT in HD either.

Studio 60 was not in HD OTA last night. TitanTV.com indicated it should have been.

Studio 60 was not in HD OTA last night. TitanTV.com indicated it should have been.


You should have been watching CSI: Miami anyway. Regardless of what you think of the show, it has by far the best HD picture of any taped program on the networks. The colors and clarity last night were fantastic.

You should have been watching CSI: Miami anyway. Regardless of what you think of the show, it has by far the best HD picture of any taped program on the networks. The colors and clarity last night were fantastic.

That's been my pick for sometime for best looking show in HD. Lost is also very nice.

Of course my SA 8300 decided to malfunction again and I got a whole 3 minutes of it. :mad:

They can't bring those Series 3 TiVos out fast enough for me.

They can't bring those Series 3 TiVos out fast enough for me.

They're already out (http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series3HDDVR), if you didn't hear already. I ended up deciding against it because of the $800 price tag along with the pending doom of TWC going to SDV in my market. With you guys switching from Adelphia, I'm guessing either you get new equipment sooner than most or MUCH later than most. Since good money is on new equipment much later, you shouldn't have a problem with SDV for quite some time.

That's been my pick for sometime for best looking show in HD. Lost is also very nice.

Of course my SA 8300 decided to malfunction again and I got a whole 3 minutes of it. :mad:

They can't bring those Series 3 TiVos out fast enough for me.

You should ask for a replacement hook. My 8300HD rarely if ever has an issue unless it's a global issue with everyone.

-T

You should have been watching CSI: Miami anyway. Regardless of what you think of the show, it has by far the best HD picture of any taped program on the networks. The colors and clarity last night were fantastic.

lefkas-

Agreed. I record most stuff on my DVR to watch later. I HATE commercials!! Sometimes I watch it live, sometimes I don't. It is one of my favorite shows.

Studio 60 was not in HD OTA last night. TitanTV.com indicated it should have been.

Was this a problem with NBC or WKYC? Channel 3 has been known in the past to not push the correct buttons...

Yeah I was pretty pissed at that. No clue what the issue was but it looked crappy that's for sure! CBS forgot to push the button for a few minutes on that Class show too. This crap shouldn't happen anymore.

You should ask for a replacement hook. My 8300HD rarely if ever has an issue unless it's a global issue with everyone.

-T


This is my third. I picked it up a couple of weeks ago.

I think the problem has something to do with my Maxtor Quickview External hard drive. I can't say exactly what the problem is but when I disconnect my external hard drive I don't have the partial recording problem. What's really weird is the only time it has the recording problem is when I am recording a Network show on a HD channel. No problem recording anything else.

They're already out (http://www.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series3HDDVR), if you didn't hear already. I ended up deciding against it because of the $800 price tag along with the pending doom of TWC going to SDV in my market. With you guys switching from Adelphia, I'm guessing either you get new equipment sooner than most or MUCH later than most. Since good money is on new equipment much later, you shouldn't have a problem with SDV for quite some time.

Thanks, looking into it. SDV? I kind of heard of it. Is that what AT&T is offering?

Also cable cards. This box needs two. Are cable cards cards you install in the box or are they just like magnetic strip type cards?

Studio 60 was not in HD OTA last night. TitanTV.com indicated it should have been.

It was not sent in HD. I checked.

Both Law and Order Criminal Intent and SVU are in SD over the digital channels tonight on WKYC.......what's up with that? These shows are definitely HD normally. Is wkyc having issues or is this network related?

I've been through 5 SA 8300/8000's over the past few years and the only thing I've found seems to make them last longer is making sure they gets tons of ventillation.

Here's to hoping TW gets something more reliable w/ a better interface going soon. The fact people are willing to fork over $800 AND STILL pay a monthly fee has got to send a message to them that people are looking for more functionality.

I've of course learned logical thinking isn't always the way they operate.

But hey I still watch browns games and think they might win, probably even less logical thinking...

Studio 60 was not in HD OTA last night. TitanTV.com indicated it should have been.It was not sent in HD. I checked.

Funny, we got it in HD in Cinci. So there was something wrong with your specific network path?

I would be astonished if Studio 60 spent all that money on acting writing and producing such a good show and did not send it out in High Def. My money is on the "did not throw the switch in the control room, this should not happen" scenario.

All right, here's the deal. The web site the master control ops use to get timings and such listed all these shows as NOT HD. That site is 99.9% correct. Until this week it was 100% correct. :D

Last night when L&O came up SD I called in and had them switch anyway, and voila! HD. I'm going to issue a memo today to master and see if I can get NBC to correct the APT site.

I kinda like to get an idea on how crazy my thinking is. Help me out guys.

Series 3 TiVo....90 day warranty (unless you buy extended subscription) 800.00
Monthly fee: 12.50
Benefits: User friendly, reliable, Wish list, Season Pass, all kinds of wonderful like no unknown conflicts. Set up recordings on line. USB can be used for wireless networking. I can use my existing Maxtor External hard drive to add aditional disk space. Series 3 alone has 35 hours HD disk space. Great search features.

Not in stock would have to order and wait on delivery.

Currenty SA 8300

12 bucks a month. Not reliable. Unknown conflicts possible. Terrible interface. Horrible search feature, but hey for the money....really not that bad of a deal.

Free replacement anytime there is a problem. I've replaced 3 times.

I've lived (or put up) with this for two and a half years.

I can't have satellite. What would you do?

I kinda like to get an idea on how crazy my thinking is. Help me out guys.

Series 3 TiVo....90 day warranty (unless you buy extended subscription) 800.00
Monthly fee: 12.50
Benefits: User friendly, reliable, Wish list, Season Pass, all kinds of wonderful like no unknown conflicts. Set up recordings on line. USB can be used for wireless networking. I can use my existing Maxtor External hard drive to add aditional disk space. Series 3 alone has 35 hours HD disk space. Great search features.

Not in stock would have to order and wait on delivery.

Currenty SA 8300

12 bucks a month. Not reliable. Unknown conflicts possible. Terrible interface. Horrible search feature, but hey for the money....really not that bad of a deal.

Free replacement anytime there is a problem. I've replaced 3 times.

I've lived (or put up) with this for two and a half years.

I can't have satellite. What would you do?


hookbill, I briefly considered the S3, but started reading the posts at www.tivocommunity.org about it, and I'm going to take a wait and see approach.

I really had to say no to the S3 when I discovered the network features have not been enabled on the S3 yet - it's the usual paranoia from the content providers about the HD content being copy protected when it leaves the box. There's no multi-room view or copy-to-PC features yet. "promised" for a future software update.

I was thinking $800 divided by $12 (cable company box fee) is 66 months. That's a long time for breakeven BUT I still have to pay Tivo $12.95/mo for the program guide, so there is no savings anywhere in this scenario.

I tend to care more about HD PQ than DVRing, so I figure I can put that $800 towards a full 1080p plasma with CableCard next year.

hookbill, I briefly considered the S3, but started reading the posts at www.tivocommunity.org about it, and I'm going to take a wait and see approach.

I really had to say no to the S3 when I discovered the network features have not been enabled on the S3 yet - it's the usual paranoia from the content providers about the HD content being copy protected when it leaves the box. There's no multi-room view or copy-to-PC features yet. "promised" for a future software update.



See I watch by DVR all the time. Sometimes I have come come close to running out of disk space even with my Maxtor. Right now I'm not "furious" with the SA 8300, but if it continues to miss programs I'll get that way again.

Geeze, it will cost me 1G to get everything I need. I want it, but I don't know if I need it. I would hope I wouldn't see as many hickups and disk problems as I do with the 8300.

I've got the gun loaded. All I need is put in that cc# to pull the trigger. ;)

I'm still thinking, however.

Oh, forgot to mention I think the ESATA port on the S3 is currently disabled as well. But Weaknees will replace the internal drive with a 750GB for a few more hundred dollars, LOL...

Oh, forgot to mention I think the ESATA port on the S3 is currently disabled as well. But Weaknees will replace the internal drive with a 750GB for a few more hundred dollars, LOL...


Heck I forgot to comment on your first post what I wanted to say :o . I'm not too much in a hurry to transfer to computer hard drive, so that's not high on my priority list.

The sata drive, however is important. I'll check on that.

The sata drive, however is important. I'll check on that.

It's on their short list of things to enable on an upcoming software upgrade.

The other cost you should consider are the two CableCARDs monthly rental (and installation) also the loss of PPV and sports passes (GamePlan, Full Court, Center Ice, etc).

If it weren't for the SDV (switched digital video that requires two-way communication like PPV and onDemand) I would be all over an S3 because the SA8300HD is adequite, but reboots randomly and doesn't remember to start some recordings again after the reboot.

It's on their short list of things to enable on an upcoming software upgrade.

The other cost you should consider are the two CableCARDs monthly rental (and installation) also the loss of PPV and sports passes (GamePlan, Full Court, Center Ice, etc).

If it weren't for the SDV (switched digital video that requires two-way communication like PPV and onDemand) I would be all over an S3 because the SA8300HD is adequite, but reboots randomly and doesn't remember to start some recordings again after the reboot.

I don't watch ppv, ever. I did this year purchase MLB, but there's enough of it around without my buying that again. To be honest, I hadn't thought about that.

It's just the cost itself stopping me. If it was 500 bucks I'd jump. 800 is just so high, and actually with the service plan it would be 1000.00. (5 year)

Decision has been made. It's just simply to pricey.

I'm going to wait until the price drops, which I believe it will. Thanks for helping me think it out.

You should have been watching CSI: Miami anyway. Regardless of what you think of the show, it has by far the best HD picture of any taped program on the networks. The colors and clarity last night were fantastic.

Amen to that! I like especially when they show the HD views of the city at the beginning of each scene.

Syndicated programing is vastly different than a live feed. I will agree that FOX due to their splicer system seems very unlikely to pick up the NFL network's 1080i HD feed, but that has very little to do with syndicated programming. Affiliates need HD recording/capturing equipment to be able to air HD syndicated shows that are transmitted several days in advance.

Our NBC affiliate in Cinci has said they plan on carrying our NFL network game in HD, but I would think that should only require a repointing of the satellite. Our CBS affiliate has bought the rights to ESPN's Monday Night Bengal games, but do not carry them in HD due to the 720p feed.


It's not an issue of syndicated vs. live, yet an issue of more than one HD downlink, HD cross conversion, production/commercial integration etc... What I was trying to get at is that they only have one HD input into their system. Regardless of live, syndicated, server or other.

The only station doing any switching of HD feeds in town whether from live, HD server/tape, to live studio appears to be WKYC (granted Fox 8 does do local HD news). All they're doing is slaving and HD router to their SD master control switcher. It's my belief that Fox 8 simply is not prepared to take in anything other than Fox network stream or their A-control room in HD.

I'd have to agree, Hookbill, and I have been one of those drooling over the S3.

And though I could justify the cost to myself - if I do go ahead and pull the trigger on a regular HD set (I watch HD stuff down here on the computer almost exclusively now, and almost never go upstairs) - the SDV thing terryfoster mentioned has me spooked.

TWC is a big SDV proponent, from all I've seen, and SDV basically doesn't work with the S3 or pretty much any non-cable company solution from what I've heard.

Answering the "when does WBNX go HD" question, it turns out to be "not very soon OTA, and about a month and change on cable", as a blog uncovers:

http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com/2006/09/breaking-news-wbnx-details-digital.html

It's my belief that Fox 8 simply is not prepared to take in anything other than Fox network stream or their A-control room in HD.

I wouldn't be surprised.

Assuming FOX 8 doesn't pick up the NFL Network HD feed for that game, I wonder if that feed won't be blacked out? The ESPN games are usually not blacked out when broadcast locally.

Of course, that does us new TWC/ex-Adelphia types no good right now! But, my father just got a big new DLP set, and he has D*, so he can probably watch it there...

All right, here's the deal. The web site the master control ops use to get timings and such listed all these shows as NOT HD. That site is 99.9% correct. Until this week it was 100% correct. :D

Last night when L&O came up SD I called in and had them switch anyway, and voila! HD. I'm going to issue a memo today to master and see if I can get NBC to correct the APT site.

Recently moved out of the Y'town area and miss WFMJ 21 primarily because WKYC channel 3 out of cleveland seems to always have everything stretched when not airing 16x9 material. Even studio 60, L&O and SVU were stretched SD signals....so I saw SD with letterbox stretched and looking horrible.

Anyway, I am stuck with WKYC as I can't get WFMJ here.....

What you said above about notifying master and getting NBC to correct APT site....will that fix the HD feed to other NBC affiliates? Or should I be calling them complaining to get it right?

Thanks!

in case anyone has the HR20, and is recording anything off of ABC thinking why in the world wont it play right. I spoke to the head engineer at WEWS, the Encoders they are using are giving the HR20 fits anytime something is recorded, or played from the buffer (Live is flawless!) The encoders need a firmware upgrade, he just didnt sound like that was going to be soon, as he said he could not give a time frame...I think the more people call though the sooner it will be :)

Recently moved out of the Y'town area and miss WFMJ 21 primarily because WKYC channel 3 out of cleveland seems to always have everything stretched when not airing 16x9 material. Even studio 60, L&O and SVU were stretched SD signals....so I saw SD with letterbox stretched and looking horrible.

Anyway, I am stuck with WKYC as I can't get WFMJ here.....

What you said above about notifying master and getting NBC to correct APT site....will that fix the HD feed to other NBC affiliates? Or should I be calling them complaining to get it right?

Thanks!

Actually what NBC did to the APT site we use is only label SD programs now. Before the HD shows were marked HD TV. Now they've flopped and mark the SD shows SD TV. So "before" an operator not seeing HD TV wouldn't throw the switch. Now if it doesn't say anything they have to throw the switch. I can understand why the MCR ops would get confused. Being an ex-master control operator I would never suggest calling and bugging them. :rolleyes: :D

Actually what NBC did to the APT site we use is only label SD programs now. Before the HD shows were marked HD TV. Now they've flopped and mark the SD shows SD TV. So "before" an operator not seeing HD TV wouldn't throw the switch. Now if it doesn't say anything they have to throw the switch. I can understand why the MCR ops would get confused. Being an ex-master control operator I would never suggest calling and bugging them. :rolleyes: :D

OK...so has anyone told WKYC?

Actually what NBC did to the APT site we use is only label SD programs now. Before the HD shows were marked HD TV. Now they've flopped and mark the SD shows SD TV. So "before" an operator not seeing HD TV wouldn't throw the switch. Now if it doesn't say anything they have to throw the switch. I can understand why the MCR ops would get confused. Being an ex-master control operator I would never suggest calling and bugging them. :rolleyes: :D

Thanks for the response and that makes perfect sense. While I don't intend to call and bug them, I would like to know that they are aware of this change and are going to get it right from here on out. I would guess that I am not the only one disappointed when I tune in my favorite shows in HD and have to watch SD stretched to HD proportions.

Do I just wait and hope someone else notices this? Or is there an update that was sent to affiliates about this change? Looking forward to watching "kidnapped"
tonight and if it is also in SD I will be disappointed still.....

Thanks.......

OK...so has anyone told WKYC?

That's what I was trying to say with my post. I just couldn't seem to find the right words!

;)

Recently moved out of the Y'town area and miss WFMJ 21 primarily because WKYC channel 3 out of cleveland seems to always have everything stretched when not airing 16x9 material. Even studio 60, L&O and SVU were stretched SD signals....so I saw SD with letterbox stretched and looking horrible.

Anyway, I am stuck with WKYC as I can't get WFMJ here.....

What you said above about notifying master and getting NBC to correct APT site....will that fix the HD feed to other NBC affiliates? Or should I be calling them complaining to get it right?

Thanks!icicle22, Have you tried getting WKBN-DT OTA? I get it 24/7 here in Parma. WFMJ-DT is about to double their power, so they may be receivable in at least part of Cuyahoga County (especially in the Solon/Moreland Hills area where their coverage map shows these towns inside the coverage area). WYTV, otoh is a lost cause. I can only get 33 when the atmosphere gives them a boost. Too bad since WEWS is the preemption king, followed by WKYC a close second (why do they think anyone would want to watch old Matlock episodes on prime time in 2006 is beyond me).

That's what I was trying to say with my post. I just couldn't seem to find the right words!

;)


I just sent them an email and included a link to TVChief21's post.

I just switched from law & Order on Channel 3 to The Unit on channel 19 due to the stretched SD bulcrap. The dude at the controls has to be sleeping. So I just go to another channel.

JJK

I just switched from law & Order on Channel 3 to The Unit on channel 19 due to the stretched SD bulcrap. The dude at the controls has to be sleeping. So I just go to another channel.

JJK

Yeah, it happened with both l&o's last night. Sucks, no dolby 5.1 either!

Cox - Cleveland just added MTV HD to the High Def section.
Just the channel I wanted added - NOT!

Cox - Cleveland just added MTV HD to the High Def section.
Just the channel I wanted added - NOT!

MTV HD but no ESPN2?

I'm trying to think, but can't remember if STO aired any road games this season in HD? I know there were the WKYC road games in HD. Wondering if anyone remembers any STO road games?

Watching CSI NY on WOIO, and they come back from a 10:52pm-ish break and the feed is 4x3. I call the station's master control, and the MC operator insist it's coming in in HD. Well, it may be, but it's not 16x9 like it was two minutes earlier.

That is what I saw OTA. The same thing happened last night at the end of Smith the last 15 or so minutes weren't HD.

That is what I saw OTA. The same thing happened last night at the end of Smith the last 15 or so minutes weren't HD.

Someone is flipping the switch a little too soon !

WJW Sees High Ratings for High-Def News
http://hdnews.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0042/t.198.html

I'm confused by the following statement in that article. "WJW is the sole producer of native HD newscasts in the Cleveland DMA." The article is dated August 11, 2006, and I know that at that time WKYC was broadcasting their local news in HD. The term "native" may indicate that there is some difference between WKYC's HD and WJW's HD. Anyone know if this is the case, or is the article simply in error. By the way, I watch both newscasts. :)

Yes, they (CBS this time) messed up "Smith," another great show for the last act of the show! This is SO IRRITATING! What can we do? I assume the engineers from the stations read this forum. Don't they realize people are watching and people care?

Yes, they (CBS this time) messed up "Smith," another great show for the last act of the show! This is SO IRRITATING! What can we do? I assume the engineers from the stations read this forum. Don't they realize people are watching and people care?

Smith is on again this Saturday. I've got my DVR set to record. Hopefully they will show it all in HD.

Watching CSI NY on WOIO, and they come back from a 10:52pm-ish break and the feed is 4x3. I call the station's master control, and the MC operator insist it's coming in in HD. Well, it may be, but it's not 16x9 like it was two minutes earlier.

How stupid can these people be. 4:3 is not 16:9 and is not HD. And they want to argue with you and tell you your wrong?

Sounds like they need a few phone calls during the day or emails.

On second thought this is WOIO. Not the brightest bulb in the HD socket. :)

See I watch by DVR all the time. Sometimes I have come come close to running out of disk space even with my Maxtor. Right now I'm not "furious" with the SA 8300, but if it continues to miss programs I'll get that way again.

Geeze, it will cost me 1G to get everything I need. I want it, but I don't know if I need it. I would hope I wouldn't see as many hickups and disk problems as I do with the 8300.

I've got the gun loaded. All I need is put in that cc# to pull the trigger. ;)

I'm still thinking, however.

What type of display do you have? I can't recall but were you the one who watches HD downconverted to SD? Either you or inundated did that.

At any rate, I LOVE DVR'ing and would love nothing better than to have a MUCH better interface and feature set than the lame 8300SD has, yet to dump $800 into that when I have so many other things I want to get, just doesn't make any sense to me. I have a 4 year old Sony CRT HDTV which is fine, but to dump that money into TiVo, plus the $12.95 per month, I'd much rather save and get a 1080p LCoS SXRD! I'll deal with crappy performance and no external drive so that I ensure it works and save my money towards a better TV. Now, if all things are equal and money was no object, then yeah, I'd be buying the TiVo. Unfortunately at least for me, money is definitely an issue, thus it makes no sense to waste $800, plus another $155 per year for the TiVo service. My HDTV doesn't have a cable card option, thus I can't really get rid of the cable box anyway so the $12 per month for the DVR from Time Warner is a sunk cost no matter what I do.

Anyway, that's what I'd do...keep the DVR, save the $800 towards a killer TV or maybe upgrade my projector.

How stupid can these people be. 4:3 is not 16:9 and is not HD. And they want to argue with you and tell you your wrong?

Sounds like they need a few phone calls during the day or emails.

On second thought this is WOIO. Not the brightest bulb in the HD socket. :)


For the MC op...I mean it's ok, it's just a mistake dude, but don't try and insist I'm wrong by proving to me that the last four minutes of the show will air in 4:3, almost a refusal to cut the router back. Now I do feel bad for them, they have to manually hit it everytime where other stations in town are just slaving the master control switcher to the HD router.

You know when they cut from national HD stream back to the local upconverter you see the CBS Eye logo jump from right to center...it never happened in the last break of the show, and from the network "Stay tuned for scenes from the next CSI."

I'm confused by the following statement in that article. "WJW is the sole producer of native HD newscasts in the Cleveland DMA." The article is dated August 11, 2006, and I know that at that time WKYC was broadcasting their local news in HD. The term "native" may indicate that there is some difference between WKYC's HD and WJW's HD. Anyone know if this is the case, or is the article simply in error. By the way, I watch both newscasts. :)


Sounds to me as if WJW just fed the reporter with catch phrases such as "Native HD," well if that means they don't upconvert, then they have merely a native studio newscast, because all of the "news" is clearly upconverted. Also looks as if she didn't do her homework and actually check if any other station did HD news in town.

At the very least WKYC field photographers shoot in SD 16x9 and upconvert those pictures, compared to the "Fox 8, HD" wings. Last time I checked WKYC's broadcast was just as "native HD" as Fox 8's.

IIRC, WJW's graphics are all HD, whereas WKYC's graphics are still SD overlaid on an HD broadcast. WKYC doesn't make for a clean seamless presentation, IMO.

What type of display do you have? I can't recall but were you the one who watches HD downconverted to SD? Either you or inundated did that.



For the record, that was Inundated. :)

I have a Sony Wega 30" CRT HD set. Which I'm quite happy with.

You know when they cut from national HD stream back to the local upconverter you see the CBS Eye logo jump from right to center...it never happened in the last break of the show, and from the network "Stay tuned for scenes from the next CSI."

Speaking about the "eye"....has anyone else noticed that they've gone back to the eye turning to "CBS HDTV" at the start of each break? For some reason they stopped doing that about February. I like it because it's easy for me to focus on that when I'm FF through commercials. :)

Speaking about the "eye"....has anyone else noticed that they've gone back to the eye turning to "CBS HDTV" at the start of each break? For some reason they stopped doing that about February. I like it because it's easy for me to focus on that when I'm FF through commercials. :)The still do that for the beginning of Letterman.

I've been watching most of my CBS from WKBN-DT lately, so if you havn't seen the "CBS HD" rotating logo, the WOIO MC op is asleep at the switch...again!

NO station is perfect in this matter (HD/SD switch-over). I posted over in the Youngstown forum several weeks ago when the last few minutes of a program was in SD. For whatever reason the network was running 3 minutes behind, so it was arounf 11:00 PM. That led me to believe that the switchover was preprogrammed. WKBN Chief replied that the switchover was done manually. The MC op's need to be watching the programs when the hit the switch.

BTW there is no need for MC to keep switching back and forth during the commercials, unless there are locally originated commercials (some, but not all breaks contain LO commercials).

I usualy get to see the tail end of what CBS runs during the local avails ("CBS Cares" public service announcements) on WKBN-DT. The network commercials are upconverted 4x3 with no "VBI noise" at the top of the picture, unlilke most local SD feeds.

I'm watching HDTV downconverted to SD and letterboxed on a 27" Sony. I get to see all the crud (i.e. what I called VBI noise) on the top of the picture. It's a dead giveaway that the broadcast is SD.

I see something weird on some digital channels, last night it was on Channel 5.1. Watching some broadcasts shows what I can only describe as sawtooth or chainsaw effects, mostly with graphics. Maybe it resembles a huge chroma error or something. A horizontal graphics bar (maybe on the news) looks like it has spikes above/below that are juttering back and forth. From what I can tell, this was only on SD broadcasts.

What is this effect? Does it have a name? Is it an error in the broadcast, or maybe SD material being sent on a HD channel? I don't think it's related to my display.

I see something weird on some digital channels, last night it was on Channel 5.1. Watching some broadcasts shows what I can only describe as sawtooth or chainsaw effects, mostly with graphics. Maybe it resembles a huge chroma error or something. A horizontal graphics bar (maybe on the news) looks like it has spikes above/below that are juttering back and forth. From what I can tell, this was only on SD broadcasts.

What is this effect? Does it have a name? Is it an error in the broadcast, or maybe SD material being sent on a HD channel? I don't think it's related to my display.
I see this effect on HD football games when viewed on my SD set. The yard lines have a jagged appearence when viewed at an angle. There must be too much information when the picture gets downconverted.

If your set is an HD set it could be for a totally different reason. Some people see "rainbows" on DLP sets. Older LCD's don't do well on fast-moving images. There are all kinds of visual distortion that can take place in the digital and HD world that never was a factor in analog TV.

For those of us who can get both the Cleveland and Youngstown market stations that carry Sunday afternoon NFL games here is the situation.

Due to the Browns playing at home WJW will not be able to carry the 2nd game of the FOX double header. Over in Youngstown WKBN has decided to carry the 1 PM Cincinnati @ Pittsburgh game, while WYFX will carry both games of the FOX double header (in SD, of course).

If you are a Steelers fan, the WKBN-DT game will be in HD. The 4:05 game Baltimore at Cleveland on WOIO will be in SD (no surprise).

The FOX games: 1:00 PM Chicago @ Minnesota in HD on WJW and in SD on WYFX
4:00 PM NY Giants @ Seattle - only on WYFX due the the Browns playing at home.

As always the schedules are subject to change. I get this information from JPKirby's excellent site: http://www.gribblenation.net/nflmaps/

For those of us who can get both the Cleveland and Youngstown market stations that carry Sunday afternoon NFL games here is the situation.

Due to the Browns playing at home WJW will not be able to carry the 2nd game of the FOX double header. Over in Youngstown WKBN has decided to carry the 1 PM Cincinnati @ Pittsburgh game, while WYFX will carry both games of the FOX double header (in SD, of course).

If you are a Steelers fan, the WKBN-DT game will be in HD. The 4:05 game Baltimore at Cleveland on WOIO will be in SD (no surprise).

The FOX games: 1:00 PM Chicago @ Minnesota in HD on WJW and in SD on WYFX
4:00 PM NY Giants @ Seattle - only on WYFX due the the Browns playing at home.

As always the schedules are subject to change. I get this information from JPKirby's excellent site: http://www.gribblenation.net/nflmaps/

Since both stations are owned by the same company, does anyone know whether the WYFX signal can be switched over to WKBN-DT just for the football game so it can be carried in HD (assuming no CBS game is on simultaneously)? I thought they were doing this for some of the Indians games earlier in the year.

I would agree with a lot of the comments made here. WOIO, in my opinion, sucks the worst and they need to wake up. I live only 20 miles from their DT transmitter (with a clear view), and I get nothing. Sometimes it's funny to watch their newscast to see their desperate attempts at trying to get ratings, and it's so fake. I would be much happier with a signal I could actually watch. I miss the quality HD programming like CSI because I don't get a constant signal. Congrats to 3, 5, and 8 for HD newscasts or decent power levels.

...I live only 20 miles from [WOIO's] DT transmitter (with a clear view), and I get nothing.

Since WOIO transmits on 10 (VHF) what does your analog channel 8 look like? Are there lots of ghosts? What I'm trying to get at is since (I believe) you're well within the coverage area, you might be having multipath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath) issues with their signal. Check out this map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT428322.html) to see WOIO-DT's coverage area.

Cox - Cleveland just added MTV HD to the High Def section.
Just the channel I wanted added - NOT!
I wrote that on Wednesday. Thursday MTV-HD was gone!
Well, I won't miss it.

Since both stations are owned by the same company, does anyone know whether the WYFX signal can be switched over to WKBN-DT just for the football game so it can be carried in HD (assuming no CBS game is on simultaneously)? I thought they were doing this for some of the Indians games earlier in the year.
You are not the first one to suggest that WKBN-DT swap the HD feed with WYFX.

Outside of contractural issues with CBS and FOX (and cable systems), I can see a big problem for the WKBN-DT master control to try and pull this off. After all football games don't end precisely on time. If they wanted to try this and the Steelers / Bengals game ran past 4:15 then there would be 2 HD programs overlapping (i.e. the end of the Steelers game on CBS and the beginning of the 2nd FOX game).

O.T. comment: Has anyone else notice the folowing improvements to the NFL television coverage for this season:

1.) You now see highlights of any game, regardless of which network has the game (i.e. a CBS halftime report will show a highlight from a FOX game in progress and visa-versa).

2.) Highlights from HD games are in HD during the NBC Sunday Nght Football game.

I was watching WJW-DT 10 o'clock news last night and I believe Rizzo mentioned something about SkyFox "being in the shop" so it could be fitted for an HD camera. Anybody else catch this mention? This would be a nice HD addition for WJW and for the Cleveland/Akron/Canton market. I had heard a while ago that they were planning this - now it sounds like we may be seeing it very soon. :D

Since WOIO transmits on 10 (VHF) what does your analog channel 8 look like? Are there lots of ghosts? What I'm trying to get at is since (I believe) you're well within the coverage area, you might be having multipath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath) issues with their signal. Check out this map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT428322.html) to see WOIO-DT's coverage area.
WOIO, being on ch 10 is subject to interference from the analog ch 10 out of London Ontario, CFPL-TV. If you live 20 miles NORTHEAST of the WOIO transmitters, you may be in the natural skip area for CFPL. That station was almost a local station for parts of Ashtabula county, and in the summer when I was a kid I got it many times in Euclid.

I said this before and I'll say it again, WOIO does not belong on ch 10 - it's a very bad frequency for this area. Canada will not shut off analogs for many years after the U.S. shut-off (this makes me wonder how the FCC can sell-off the upper UHF frequencies for non-tv uses if they are still used for TV across the border). WOIO has successfully fought to stay on ch 10, bumping Columbus' WBNS off that channel that they had for decades before WOIO ever existed. I wish Raycom would come to their senses and abandon ch 10. They probably think they are doing CBS a favor by getting them back on VHF in Cleveland, but in reallity they have driven those of us that can to WKBN for our CBS - and I can see the WOIO tower out my back window!

Since both stations are owned by the same company, does anyone know whether the WYFX signal can be switched over to WKBN-DT just for the football game so it can be carried in HD (assuming no CBS game is on simultaneously)? I thought they were doing this for some of the Indians games earlier in the year.

WKYC-DT did not make the HD feed available to their OTA partners in other markets. I don't believe they had any way of distributing the HD signal. I thought that I may have heard that they were considering this for the future, though. The problem with the Y-town situation, of course, is that WYFX is low-power analog and WKBN-DT subchannel digital - which means no HD capability. It would be nice if they had the capability to reallocate bandwidth so that they could show WYFX on the subchannel in HD under certain circumstances. Of course, their primary obligation is to CBS, so I am sure that CBS HD programming would always have to have priority. But for the Sunday afternoon Tribe games, when nothing is running in HD on CBS, I think this would be a great move.

If Tom Zocolo, WKBN Engineer, is out there, maybe he can address this.

I was watching WJW-DT 10 o'clock news last night and I believe Rizzo mentioned something about SkyFox "being in the shop" so it could be fitted for an HD camera. Anybody else catch this mention? This would be a nice HD addition for WJW and for the Cleveland/Akron/Canton market. I had heard a while ago that they were planning this - now it sounds like we may be seeing it very soon. :D

That would be nice. I wonder what happened with "Ground Fox?" It was suppose to go through some upgrades too but I haven't seen it in months.

That would be nice. I wonder what happened with "Ground Fox?" It was suppose to go through some upgrades too but I haven't seen it in months.
Ground FOX was a joke. It only worked in very limited areas of town. Every time they broadcast from Gound FOX it appeared to me that they were in Tremont. That led me to believe that Ground FOX needed a clear line-of-sight to the Terminal Tower (and not too close to the tower either - they never broadcast from Pubilc Square).

Last night the SA 8300 decided to record only 40 minutes ov Ghost Whisperer. This is one of my wife's favorite shows.

So after much further discuss, debate, investigation pros and cons we decided to take the plune. I just ordered the TiVo Series 3. It should be here by 10/2/06.

From what I can tell there probably won't be any of the VSD problems around here for a few years. I'm banking that the FCC forces them to do something by that time. In any case HD shouldn't be affected in regards to what we are currently getting.

It's a gamble, expensive, but hey don't mess with the wife's shows. :)

I'll let you know how it all works out.

Since WOIO transmits on 10 (VHF) what does your analog channel 8 look like? Are there lots of ghosts? What I'm trying to get at is since (I believe) you're well within the coverage area, you might be having multipath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipath) issues with their signal. Check out this map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT428322.html) to see WOIO-DT's coverage area.

There isn't much of a multipath issue for me. Channel 8 is very clear where I'm at. It's just that WOIO-DT doesn't have much power. I can get WKYC-DT no problem since their a tad higher power and lower frequency, but WOIO-DT is very flaky. I can't use an outdoor antenna since I live in an apartment, and I think that's the problem. But I don't think that it should be necessary considering that I can get Fox 8 no problem with an indoor. The FCC's website shows that I'm in the coverage area, but I don't trust those estimates. I've never found those to be accurate considering that they seem to overestimate and don't factor in the terrain.

Hookbill, you should have thought of this months ago! Am I right you plan to hook this up to TW cable since you could not get a dish to work? If so, you will be a nice test case for me. My 8300 (with a 250 gig drive) works much more reliably than yours does but I would love to know if you think the actual Tivo is an improvement. I assume the software is better, the interface is better and I also hear Ghost Whisperer looks absofreakinglutely amazing on it!

Hookbill, you should have thought of this months ago! Am I right you plan to hook this up to TW cable since you could not get a dish to work? If so, you will be a nice test case for me. My 8300 (with a 250 gig drive) works much more reliably than yours does but I would love to know if you think the actual Tivo is an improvement. I assume the software is better, the interface is better and I also hear Ghost Whisperer looks absofreakinglutely amazing on it!

I can't tell you how happy I am ti be a "test" case. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you would like to contribute to the "Hookbill's TiVo Series 3 Test Fund".

All contributions would be accepted and are guaranteed to go directly to pay for thiis piece of metal and circuitry. :D :D

The cable cards won't be here until 10/9. TiVo itself should arrive around Thursday.

Hookbill, you should have thought of this months ago!

Uh, months ago? The Tivo S3 (with HD capability) just hit the street about a week ago... :D

I can't seem to find the answer in this thread. Is WEWS-DT transmitting in Dolby 5.1?

I can't seem to find the answer in this thread. Is WEWS-DT transmitting in Dolby 5.1?

I believe only WKYC-DT and WJW-DT broadcast in DD 5.1 in our market. These two stations seem to be the technology and innovation leaders in the Cleveland/Akron/Canton market. They also happen to be the only stations in the market to do their local newscasts in HD. That's probably good though - I really do NOT want to see "Action News" in HD! :rolleyes:

I can't seem to find the answer in this thread. Is WEWS-DT transmitting in Dolby 5.1?
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wish they did.
I spoke with them months ago and they said that equipment was there waiting to be installed
It has been months

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wish they did.
I spoke with them months ago and they said that equipment was there waiting to be installed
It has been months

I wonder what's taking so long, if the equipment is already on site.

WOIO again tonight, OTA not in HD. Both Cold Case and Without a Trace the complete programs. Whoever is sleeping at the controls at WOIO should wakeup since it's the 3rd time this week.

Sunday Night Football (Denver/New England) on WKYC doesn't look good tonight. Compression artifacts with the 50 yard shot, and macroblocking when there's even the slightest bit of motion. Pretty bad HD presentation, IMHO.

It can't be all Weather Minus' fault, I've seen better than this with the subchannel on...

WOIO again tonight, OTA not in HD. Both Cold Case and Without a Trace the complete programs. Whoever is sleeping at the controls at WOIO should wakeup since it's the 3rd time this week.

If you are sure the show is supposed to be in HD, call WOIO news hotline at (216) 367-7300 and complain. You might be surprised and 5 to 10 minutes later see your show in HD after they flip the switch.

WOIO again tonight, OTA not in HD. Both Cold Case and Without a Trace the complete programs. Whoever is sleeping at the controls at WOIO should wakeup since it's the 3rd time this week.

I believe because both shows are delayed due to the Browns game they are tape delayed. I don't think they can record in HD so the taped delayed shows are SD.

WOIO again tonight, OTA not in HD. Both Cold Case and Without a Trace the complete programs. Whoever is sleeping at the controls at WOIO should wakeup since it's the 3rd time this week.

Could be that since WOIO carried a different 4PM game (i.e., the Browns) than what most of the country saw, and assuming the games ended at different times, and AFAIK CBS has only 2 HD feeds to their affilates (and they have to reserve the 2nd feed for the west coast), we get primetime in SD only. This happens a lot during football season, and may not be WOIO's fault.

Besides, the typical WOIO screwup is to get 1 or 2 segments of a program in SD (usually following a local break), rather than messing up the entire evening.

Flatiron, Tlaz, and paule127 thanks for the replies. I didn't even think the Browns game would do that. This is my first football season with HD so, I didn't realize that they couldn't delay the HD feed some way.

Sunday Night Football (Denver/New England) on WKYC doesn't look good tonight. Compression artifacts with the 50 yard shot, and macroblocking when there's even the slightest bit of motion. Pretty bad HD presentation, IMHO.

It can't be all Weather Minus' fault, I've seen better than this with the subchannel on...
You're obviously watching a cable or directv compressed/processed signal. OTA Sunday Night Football was georgeous last night.

You mean to say that a television station cannot record a HD show? I find that hard to believe. I would think the broadcast would go into a computer that could record it digitally, even a DVR if necessary.

I think that WOIO doesn't give a crap about HD like some of the other stations.

Sunday Night Football (Denver/New England) on WKYC doesn't look good tonight. Compression artifacts with the 50 yard shot, and macroblocking when there's even the slightest bit of motion. Pretty bad HD presentation, IMHO

I agree. NBC’s HD broadcast for Sunday Night Football is not nearly as crisp as it should be. On the other hand, CBS’s HD broadcast of College Football (and sometimes NFL) are hands down the best example of HD sports to date.

And just for the record, I am viewing via an OTA antenna with the new 42” 1080i Hitachi Plasma.

Go Buckeyes!

You mean to say that a television station cannot record a HD show? I find that hard to believe. I would think the broadcast would go into a computer that could record it digitally, even a DVR if necessary.

I think that WOIO doesn't give a crap about HD like some of the other stations.

I'm not aware of any station in our area that can record the raw 1500 megabit network satellite feed. What we record on our DVRs is a very highly compressed 19 megabit datastream. A 1500 megabit datastream would eat hard drives for lunch. My guess is that the equipment to do this is very expensive. I suppose they will all have to bite the bullet though and do it before the analog shutdown in 2009.

You're obviously watching a cable or directv compressed/processed signal. OTA Sunday Night Football was georgeous last night.

I noticed this too on HD football OTA this weekend. The picture was great but during zooms (especially the CBS logo zooming at you) it got very blocky. My experience with compression artifacts says these are being significantly compressed, even OTA.

I'm not aware of any station in our area that can record the raw 1500 megabit network satellite feed. What we record on our DVRs is a very highly compressed 19 megabit datastream. A 1500 megabit datastream would eat hard drives for lunch. My guess is that the equipment to do this is very expensive. I suppose they will all have to bite the bullet though and do it before the analog shutdown in 2009.


I know WKYC/STO uses a DDR that can record at 300Mbps compression, they use this for STO replays of games. I believe technically they have the routing power to put the network feed in, but honestly don't know why they'd ever do it.

They also have other DDRs that do 140Mbps, but aren't configured for that setup.

I think they may also have tape sources that can record anywhere from 25-50Mbps.

I'm not sure if there's a commercially available server that will record at 1500Mbps.

Could be that since WOIO carried a different 4PM game (i.e., the Browns) than what most of the country saw, and assuming the games ended at different times, and AFAIK CBS has only 2 HD feeds to their affilates (and they have to reserve the 2nd feed for the west coast), we get primetime in SD only. This happens a lot during football season, and may not be WOIO's fault.

Besides, the typical WOIO screwup is to get 1 or 2 segments of a program in SD (usually following a local break), rather than messing up the entire evening.
I agree. Since I can get WKBN-DT, I watched Cold Case and Without A Trace on the Youngstown OTA channel. Both were in HD. I flipped over to WOIO when Without A Trace was over, and lo and behold, there was the last ~15 minutes of what I just watched in HD in SD.

Evidenlty the Browns game was the last game on, the announcers said "stay tuned for 60 minutes immediately following this game...you are watching the NFL on CBS." I presumed that the tail-end of the Browns game was being seen nationally. Evidently not, as WKBN did not have CBS in a delay, as they carried the Steelers/Bengals game (in HD I might add) at 1 PM.

Hopefully someone will come up with a more economical way to record broadcast quality HD soon.

When a game starts at 4:00, it is generally regional only. Gee, I wonder why the whole country wouldn't want to see Baltimore/Cleveland??? :-)

The late game for the network with the doubleheader starts at 4:15 and the prime time shows will not be delayed.

When a game starts at 4:00, it is generally regional only. Gee, I wonder why the whole country wouldn't want to see Baltimore/Cleveland??? :-)

The late game for the network with the doubleheader starts at 4:15 and the prime time shows will not be delayed.
There still may be a prime-time network delay for the 4:15 games (at least when CBS has the double header). There were 3 FOX 4:15 games yesterday. I was not watching, actually noone in Cleveland was watching (unless you get WKBN-DT/WYFX), we lost the 2nd gme of the FOX doubleheader. Cleveland was the only market w/o a 4:15 game. http://www.gribblenation.net/nflmaps/03-FOX-L.gif
If any of the 3 4:15 games would run over, all markets getting football at the time (that is everybody except us) would see the tail end of the last game in progress, no matter which game was carried, so that the network would be in sync.

I watched The Simpsons at 8:00 on WJW, I flipped over to 27.2 WYFX and they were in sync with WJW. So perhaps none of the 3 FOX 4:15 games ran overtime. However if one of tem did wouldn't there be a delay on FOX for the evening, or would they just join-in-progress the 7:00 PM program? I think that may have happened last week.

I just miss having an OTA news station here in Akron. It seems like Cleveland has sucked up everything good from Akron just because I am in that market area. I don't care about Cleveland news!! I live in Akron, and I rarely go to Cleveland anyways. I do applaud the efforts of some stations to cover Akron, but it's not the same as the days when Akron had WAKC or PAX 23 news. Youngstown is about half the size of Akron, yet there are 3 news stations there, only because it is a separate market area. A TV station in Akron could possibly reach more people than an OTA station transmitter placed in Cleveland. A transmitter in Akron could easily reach Akron, Canton, Cleveland, and Youngstown all in one. So I'm wondering why it hasn't been successfully done. Maybe markets aren't a good way to describe our area. Perhaps it would just be best for stations to cover their OTA broadcast regions or the closest TV stations for rural (no OTA signal) areas. Ashtabula county, in my opinion, belongs to either Youngstown or Erie depending on which part of the county you're in. Cleveland's OTAs barely touch that county, yet it's in that market. The idea of markets has greatly shrunk the number of people that the Youngstown stations can reach. If I can get a Youngstown station OTA, which I can, then it should be provided by a local cable or satellite provider. The Cleveland stations in my opinion shouldn't rule all of NE Ohio, especially when you have a news as crappy as channel 19's.

I liked the Akron news also on 23. The male anchor was clear and concise and no balogny
chit-chat about "Oh my, that was terrible". The other 1 hr news programs on other channels present 8 minutes of news in that 1 hr period. The rest is crap.

JJK

Well, it's the end of an era for me. After seven (mostly) happy years with DirecTV, I finally broke down and ordered cable service today. For me, it truly came down to a financial decision.

I currently pay about $170 per month for internet, phone, and D*. Armstrong Cable, the provider here in Medina, is offering a buy-back program that gives me 2 PVRs (one HD for the included HD Advantage Pack), a 5mb internet pipe, and IP telephone for $89 per month for the next 12 months. After that, it rises to $150.

Sure would be nice if somehow D* could compete with that, but A) they don't offer phone service, and B) I'm not shelling out $500 for ONE PVR in order to get the locals without the antenna. I don't even think I'm going to try to go the route of customer retention this time.

To bring it on topic, does anyone here know what PVR box Armstrong is doling out these days? I'd like to at least drool for the next two and a half weeks until it's installed.

Oh, and I guess I have an out. Armstrong only requires a copy of the final satellite bill, so I'll still keep all of my equipment. And since there are no contracts, I guess I could switch back anytime.

Well, it's the end of an era for me. After seven (mostly) happy years with DirecTV, I finally broke down and ordered cable service today. For me, it truly came down to a financial decision.

I currently pay about $170 per month for internet, phone, and D*. Armstrong Cable, the provider here in Medina, is offering a buy-back program that gives me 2 PVRs (one HD for the included HD Advantage Pack), a 5mb internet pipe, and IP telephone for $89 per month for the next 12 months. After that, it rises to $150.

Sure would be nice if somehow D* could compete with that, but A) they don't offer phone service, and B) I'm not shelling out $500 for ONE PVR in order to get the locals without the antenna. I don't even think I'm going to try to go the route of customer retention this time.

To bring it on topic, does anyone here know what PVR box Armstrong is doling out these days? I'd like to at least drool for the next two and a half weeks until it's installed.


Oh, and I guess I have an out. Armstrong only requires a copy of the final satellite bill, so I'll still keep all of my equipment. And since there are no contracts, I guess I could switch back anytime.

No answer for you but I am curious about the phone. I have Vonage. What do they give you with the phone? Is it unlimited calling? Do they give features like caller ID and vm for free?

Hey, if you don't like the DVR you can always be like me and get the S3 TiVo. Mine is suppose to arrive tomorrow.

Well, it's the end of an era for me. After seven (mostly) happy years with DirecTV, I finally broke down and ordered cable service today. For me, it truly came down to a financial decision.

I currently pay about $170 per month for internet, phone, and D*. Armstrong Cable, the provider here in Medina, is offering a buy-back program that gives me 2 PVRs (one HD for the included HD Advantage Pack), a 5mb internet pipe, and IP telephone for $89 per month for the next 12 months. After that, it rises to $150.

Sure would be nice if somehow D* could compete with that, but A) they don't offer phone service, and B) I'm not shelling out $500 for ONE PVR in order to get the locals without the antenna. I don't even think I'm going to try to go the route of customer retention this time.

To bring it on topic, does anyone here know what PVR box Armstrong is doling out these days? I'd like to at least drool for the next two and a half weeks until it's installed.

Oh, and I guess I have an out. Armstrong only requires a copy of the final satellite bill, so I'll still keep all of my equipment. And since there are no contracts, I guess I could switch back anytime.

The box will be a Motorola, i don't know which model number. I think you'll be very happy with Armstrong. Besides being a customer, I've had a very good working relationship with them for almost 20 years. They tend to do things right. Not perfect, but they do a very good job trying to make it perfect.

The box will be a Motorola, i don't know which model number. I think you'll be very happy with Armstrong. Besides being a customer, I've had a very good working relationship with them for almost 20 years. They tend to do things right. Not perfect, but they do a very good job trying to make it perfect.

That's a pretty powerful endorsement coming from a station chief. Thanks for making me feel better already.

Now if they only carried your station, it could be reciprocal!

No answer for you but I am curious about the phone. I have Vonage. What do they give you with the phone? Is it unlimited calling? Do they give features like caller ID and vm for free?

Hey, if you don't like the DVR you can always be like me and get the S3 TiVo. Mine is suppose to arrive tomorrow.

The phone service does offer VM, call-forwarding, E911 service, do-not-disturb, and a host of other features that have become standard with most phone services. It runs $34.95 with another Armstrong service. Yes, it's unlimited local and long distance calling. And they were able to keep my same number.

It's a pretty good deal - especially considering that the phone service was running me $70 a month from First Communications for unlimited calling and without all of the extras like VM. My neighbor has had it for months now, and they've been very happy.

Congrats to WEWS-DT for presenting, in HD, Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune. Whether you like the shows or not, we are still one of only a few areas which can receive the shows in HD. Hopefully the WEWS newscasts are not far behind.

Sunrocket VOIP is $199 a year. Best deal out there. Unlimited LD, and all the other features the land line TELCOs, caller ID, Voicemail, 3 ways calls, do not disturb, 911 etc. have and you get a second phone number.
Of course you need a broadband connection.

WOAC has been sold to Multicultural Broadcasting.

Check out: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6375453.html?display=Breaking+News

I just miss having an OTA news station here in Akron.

I'm with you there. Akron is kind of unique in that I believe it is the largest city without its own local TV newscast. The issues are history (the market has always been centered on Cleveland), geography (AKron is just TOO close to Cleveland to be its own independent market), and politics (Cleveland would fight tooth-and-nail any attempt to break up its DMA).

I thought the 23 News product produced by WKYC was a pretty solid product - no nonsense, local news only - no American Idol crap or interviews with celebrities.

To bring this back on topic - since WKYC-DT runs a subchannel with weather on it 24 hours a day, why not take a couple of half hour blocks (say 7:00 and 10:30) and replace the weather with the WKYC-produced Akron/Canton 23 Newscast?

Although there are tons of problems with the local news on around here I do have to say one thing. I have a friend who lives in new york city and says they just recently got ONE local news station that broadcasts their news in HD . Soon cleveland will have THREE!


at least the city is moving forward with the technology!! Of course I want ALL my channels to be in HD.

...To bring this back on topic - since WKYC-DT runs a subchannel with weather on it 24 hours a day, why not take a couple of half hour blocks (say 7:00 and 10:30) and replace the weather with the WKYC-produced Akron/Canton 23 Newscast?

I like that idea. I would agree that WKYC's Akron news on Pax 23 was very nice. I had never thought of that, but I wonder why WKYC hasn't thought of that either. After all, Time Warner uses their community channel to air weather plus along with the now "cable only" Akron news. The reason that the news was kicked off the air was because Pax had done some changes when they converted the network to "I", and one of their decisions was to get rid of almost all local programming (very bad choice in my opinion). Maybe this would be a good suggestion for WKYC, unless there is some pointless stipulation that ruins everything like always. This would be good for us who rely on OTA HD.

WOAC has been sold to Multicultural Broadcasting.

Check out: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6375453.html?display=Breaking+News
Great! WOAC goes from being a shopping channel to a foreign language channel.

I can't record them but I can see the HD channels without a cable card. I ran a scan channels and I suppose like a qam tuner it found all these channels that I couldn't see.

I've got all the network HD channels accept FOX. It didn't see an 8.1. But I suppose its somewhere else.

Anybody with TW and QAM tuner no where FOX is?

Oh and cable card installation is next week. I'll let you know how it goes.

Although there are tons of problems with the local news on around here I do have to say one thing. I have a friend who lives in new york city and says they just recently got ONE local news station that broadcasts their news in HD . Soon cleveland will have THREE!


at least the city is moving forward with the technology!! Of course I want ALL my channels to be in HD.

News in HD is OK. But I'd much rather see the following:

1. More than WKYC-DT and WJW-DT broadcasting in DD 5.1. Cleveland is the largest market in the country that has only two DTs broadcasting in DD 5.1.

2. A PBS HD OTA signal that more than 1% of the market can receive. We are still waiting for WEAO-DT to resolve their money and equipment issues and WVIZ-DT to resolve their tower issues.

3. The two full power analog stragglers putting up digital signals. It looks like this will be reduced to one sometime next year with WBNX finally getting their digital stick up. I suspect that WVPX is just playing the waiting game and will flash-cut to digital on the analog shutdown date to save money.

4. WKYC-DT and WOIO-DT move to better channel assignments. I know WKYC-DT is getting 17 after analog shut down - this can't happen fast enough for me. Unfortunately, WOIO-DT chose to stay on 10 instead of moving back to 19, which would have been a much better assignment.

Just my rant for the evening! Thanks for indulging me! :D

You guys with the QAM tuners. Help me. I can't find WJW FOX 8.1. My scan doesn't come up with 8.1 but it came up with every other HD channel including WVIZ. Is it encoded and that's why I don't get it? I here you guys talking about this station broadcasting here and there.

Help a non QAM person out. :)

You guys with the QAM tuners. Help me. I can't find WJW FOX 8.1. My scan doesn't come up with 8.1 but it came up with every other HD channel including WVIZ. Is it encoded and that's why I don't get it? I here you guys talking about this station broadcasting here and there.

Help a non QAM person out. :)

I had to do multiple scans to get all the channels on Adelphia/TWC using an OnAir USB tuner. (I have WOW - no QAM, but tried the TWC scan at the in-law's).

WJW-DT was not present in the first scan, but showed as channel 105-1 on the second. The rest of the stations showed up with their analog station number, e.g. WKYC-DT was 3-1, WOIO was 19-1, etc.

You guys with the QAM tuners. Help me. I can't find WJW FOX 8.1. My scan doesn't come up with 8.1 but it came up with every other HD channel including WVIZ. Is it encoded and that's why I don't get it? I here you guys talking about this station broadcasting here and there.

Help a non QAM person out. :)
It seems to me it showed up at some funky location... I'll have to check it when I go home for lunch (If my memory doesn't get corrupted!)

OOps.. looks like asjan beat me to it... 105-1 that looks familiar!

I had to do multiple scans to get all the channels on Adelphia/TWC using an OnAir USB tuner. (I have WOW - no QAM, but tried the TWC scan at the in-law's).

WJW-DT was not present in the first scan, but showed as channel 105-1 on the second. The rest of the stations showed up with their analog station number, e.g. WKYC-DT was 3-1, WOIO was 19-1, etc.

I'll check it out!
Thanks

You guys with the QAM tuners. Help me. I can't find WJW FOX 8.1. My scan doesn't come up with 8.1 but it came up with every other HD channel including WVIZ. Is it encoded and that's why I don't get it? I here you guys talking about this station broadcasting here and there.

Help a non QAM person out. :)


105-5 ABC HD
105-8 FOX HD

on my LG QAM tuner.

My scanner brings in up to 102.9 then skips to 107. :confused:

Well, I only have to wait until Wednesday for my cards. Which reminds me, it's time to call TW and see if I can push the date up further. :)

My cousin told me that he just bought an HD TV and he uses QAM, but I've never heard of that. I noticed that it is brought up in this thread. Can anyone explain this to me, and how would I get hooked up with something like this. Is it expensive for just the locals? He told me that these stations aren't blocked. My TV is a Phillips 26" HD with built-in ATSC digital tuner.

http://forums.directv.com/pe/action/forums/displaysinglethread?rootPostID=10162058&returnExpertiseCode=

Anyone who has a HR20, please go to this website and sign up, this is to get WEWS to do something about the problem with their HD channel on Directv, I am working very hard to get them to realize that I am serious, and will not accept a when we get around to doing the firmware upgrade attitude, thanks
James

My cousin told me that he just bought an HD TV and he uses QAM, but I've never heard of that. I noticed that it is brought up in this thread. Can anyone explain this to me, and how would I get hooked up with something like this. Is it expensive for just the locals? He told me that these stations aren't blocked. My TV is a Phillips 26" HD with built-in ATSC digital tuner.

QAM is a format used by cable companies to transmit digital TV. Carriers generally leave the local stations and maybe one or two others unencrypted or "in the clear" so TVs, set-top boxes, or computer cards with QAM tuners can pick them up. Usually the cable company CSR reps will not be any help figuring out which channels you would get. Your best bet is to search this forum for someone in your area with the same cable service and/or pick up a QAM tuner to test on your own.

If you missed this last night catch a rerun sometime today as WKYC's own Investigative Reporter Carl Monday was featured on the Daily Show.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=57398

There is a 2x2 ad on page A8 of the PD today from Time Warner that says, in part:

"The agreements with WJW TV 8-FOX Cleveland and WJW-HD (where available) are due to expire soon, and we may be required to cease carraige in the near future."

I thought local affiliates were "must-carry"...

There is a 2x2 ad on page A8 of the PD today from Time Warner that says, in part:

"The agreements with WJW TV 8-FOX Cleveland and WJW-HD (where available) are due to expire soon, and we may be required to cease carraige in the near future."

I thought local affiliates were "must-carry"...

WTF. With playoffs and World Series coming around. You gotta be kidding.

I thought local affiliates were "must-carry"...

Local affiliates generally only invoke must carry laws when the cable provider doesn't want to carry the signal. Most affiliates require the cable provider to pay to retransmit their signal since the affiliate knows they have the stronger bargaining position because cable subscribers demand that all their locals be carried on cable.

The strange part about this is WJW is an O&O station, not what I would call an affiliate. So either this fuss will be all for nothing OR it will be very long and drawn out.

Our local former UPN station in Cincinnati (from what I understand) fought with TWC to get carriage and finally resorted to becoming a must carry station.

I had something similar happen in Kalamazoo where the affiliate was requiring the cable provider to carry their weather station if they wanted to carry the main program (this is back before digital broadcast). The cable company lost rights to carry the signal right in time for the Superbowl and had to suffer through much customer dissatisfaction.

Well since I have an S3 TiVo I can always hook up an antenna now and get the signal that way, if necessary.

I've already sent emails to TW, Fox, and Ohio Media Watch on this. :)

Anyone else have any problems with 19-1 last night? Went to the Tribe game and came home to discover both HD-Tivos had only about 20 minutes of Survivor recorded due to pixellation & signal breakup. Received using OTA. CSI was similarly unwatchable. Wife was not pleased at losing Survivor.

I'm guessing since 19-1 is the worst signal at my house (mid 60s strength) right now that the rain rolling through last night dinged the signal enough we got the breakups, but figured I'd ask if others had issues as well. When I flipped by 19-1 this morning on my TV's internal ATSC tuner it was also showing breakup issues. Anyone else having problems with 19-1 OTA? Or is time to tweek the antenna a little to see if I can find a sweeter spot to land both 19-1 and 5-1 w/o breakups?

At least 3-1 recorded fine in the same time slots as "My Name is Earl" & "The Office" recorded flawlessly. Didn't really expect to have "rain fade" with OTA, but I guess that's just a digital fact of life...

No breakups on CBS last night for me.

CSI was stunning as always in HD!

No breakups on CBS last night for me.

CSI was stunning as always in HD!

Same here, I had to find the right spot for my indoor antenna, and no problems with the signal or picture. I made an effort to watch CSI because it always has such good HD. I noticed that the HD for The Office on NBC seemed especially nice last night.

What kind of hook-up do you need from the cable company in order to get the QAM unencrypted channels, and what is usually a price for this?

What kind of hook-up do you need from the cable company in order to get the QAM unencrypted channels, and what is usually a price for this?

QAM is a type of modulation cable providers use mostly to send ATSC signals across your cable system. All you need is cable and a QAM demodulating ATSC tuner and you're in business. The usual price is whatever the cost of regular cable is, but you might be able to subscribe a package as low as lifeline/basic cable as long as the "channels" your cable company sends digitally aren't filtered out.

What kind of hook-up do you need from the cable company in order to get the QAM unencrypted channels, and what is usually a price for this?

Don't forget...many TV sets now have QAM tuners built into them along with NTSC and ATSC tuners...so all you have to do is connect your cable system to them and have the set scan for digital channels. There are also set-top boxes that you connect your cable to and then to your TV that have QAM, ATSC and NTSC tuners.

Don't forget...many TV sets now have QAM tuners built into them along with NTSC and ATSC tuners...so all you have to do is connect your cable system to them and have the set scan for digital channels. There are also set-top boxes that you connect your cable to and then to your TV that have QAM, ATSC and NTSC tuners.

You need a cable card for digital channels. The only ones that come through without a cable card (for TW) are the music channels and HD locals.

Anyone else have any problems with 19-1 last night? Went to the Tribe game and came home to discover both HD-Tivos had only about 20 minutes of Survivor recorded due to pixellation & signal breakup. Received using OTA. CSI was similarly unwatchable. Wife was not pleased at losing Survivor.

I'm guessing since 19-1 is the worst signal at my house (mid 60s strength) right now that the rain rolling through last night dinged the signal enough we got the breakups, but figured I'd ask if others had issues as well. When I flipped by 19-1 this morning on my TV's internal ATSC tuner it was also showing breakup issues. Anyone else having problems with 19-1 OTA? Or is time to tweek the antenna a little to see if I can find a sweeter spot to land both 19-1 and 5-1 w/o breakups?

At least 3-1 recorded fine in the same time slots as "My Name is Earl" & "The Office" recorded flawlessly. Didn't really expect to have "rain fade" with OTA, but I guess that's just a digital fact of life...
While I can't comment on 19-1 since I was not watching that channel last night, I can comment on the atmospheric condition. I was able to watch the following distant digital channels : WPXI 11-1 & 11-2 (Pittsburgh's Weather Plus), WPMY 22-1 & 22-2 (the Tube), WYTV 33-1 & 33-2 (My Y-TV), WFMJ 21-1 & 21-2 (the CW),
WNEO 45-1, 45-2 & 45-3 (the Alliance/Youngstown feed of our ch 49).

Also received, but not included in the list because I get this one 24/7: WKBN 27-1 & 27-2.

19-1, being on rf ch 10 probably received interference from the analog ch 10's CFPL-TV in London, Ontario and/or WBNS-TV in Columbus (depending on where you are located in N.E. Ohio).

A few pages back you will see my rant about Raycom's decision to keep WOIO on rf ch 10 after the transition period ends.

If you want CBS try to get WKBN-DT out of Youngstown. They have the largest coverage area of any dightal TV station in N.E. Ohio, and there are no co-channel analogs on their rf channel (41) to interfere. The closest digital ch 41 is in Detroit, however since they are in Yongstown the spacing is far enough apart not to be an issue for their market area.

Hey DaMavs, I see you are in Bainbridge. You should be albe to get ALL the Youngstown stations like they were your locals!

I"m in Parma and get WKBN-DT 24/7 using a Radio Shack cat 15-2160 UHF antenna aimed at Yongstown. I get WFMJ-TV 21 analog all the time too (sometimes snowy but usually watchable). They are about to increase their power on their digital signal any day now,I'm hoping I can add 21-1 & 21-2 to my 24/7 list. The weakest Youngstown stationis WYTV-33. I bet you would have better luck getting WYTV 24/7 than I do. I KNOW you'll get WKBN-DT for sure (unless you are in a deep valley with tons of trees).

Try scanning these rf channels: 20, 36 & 41.

Can anyone tell me if shows like csi (cbs) and lost (abc) should be coming through in true 5.1. My receiver is telling me that they are 2.0? What do I do?

Can anyone tell me if shows like csi (cbs) and lost (abc) should be coming through in true 5.1. My receiver is telling me that they are 2.0? What do I do?
Call the local stations. Neither WEWS or WOIO pass 5.1 to OTA or cable even though the network provides the signal.

Are you sure? Why would this be the case? I was on the phone with TWC last night trying to figure out if it was my components or them. They had no idea of this.

Can anyone tell me if shows like csi (cbs) and lost (abc) should be coming through in true 5.1. My receiver is telling me that they are 2.0? What do I do?

The only stations in the area as of right now that carry Dolby 5.1 are WJW, and WKYC. I've heard something about WEWS has the equipment but hasn't got it set up.

WOIO will probably broadcast in Dolby 5.1 as soon as hell freezes over. :)

Are you sure? Why would this be the case? I was on the phone with TWC last night trying to figure out if it was my components or them. They had no idea of this.
I'm not a station engineer, however you would think that they could just pass the data stream they receive from the network. It probably has something to do with local insertion between the network shows and during commercial breaks. FOX probably has the best solution (the "splicer") to deal with local/network switching.

Be careful what you ask for. It wasn't too long ago I saw posts where commercial breaks crashed DVR's. Perhaps in the early days the stations did pass on the data directly from the network. I do recall seeing recordings stop on DVR's, loss of audio and/or loud noises when the stations switched over from network to local. There were reports here that even one of the stations that has 5.1 (WKYC) had some strange anamolies coming out the rear speakers during Indians games.

So there is no way to get CSI and Lost in 5.1 then. Thanks for the post backs.

So there is no way to get CSI and Lost in 5.1 then. Thanks for the post backs.

The Youngstown CBS station, WKBN-DT, which can be received by many, in areas of Akron, Canton and Cleveland, does transmit in Dolby 5.1 audio.

Does anyone know if TWC, Cleveland is going to be adding any new HD channels any time soon? I heard that MTV is in HD (cox).

Does anyone know if TWC, Cleveland is going to be adding any new HD channels any time soon? I heard that MTV is in HD (cox).

According to handsworth, who is always on the money and posts rarely, the next addition in hd for TW is Universal.

Remember a few months ago we talked about the CW showing up in HD on channel 30 (ota)? Is there any news on this? I supposed this means the premiere of Veronica Mars won't be in HD...

Remember a few months ago we talked about the CW showing up in HD on channel 30 (ota)? Is there any news on this? I supposed this means the premiere of Veronica Mars won't be in HD...

Last word on this was that they were going to be digital for cable and satellite by November. OTA wouldn't be until the Spring.

I'm not a station engineer, however you would think that they could just pass the data stream they receive from the network.

Non-Fox affiliates are required to purchase a DD5.1 encoder if they wish to broadcast DD5.1. At least that was the case our our ABC affiliate.

Last word on this was that they were going to be digital for cable and satellite by November. OTA wouldn't be until the Spring.

Hook,
That's good news. Thx for the info.
Tom

Can anyone help me out? I live in Lyndhurst (near Mayfield) and experienced pretty bad breakups on WJW Fox 8.1 and WOIO 19.1 yesterday.

I would like to try and receive WKBN-DT OTA (Youngstown CBS). What is that channel number?

Also, does Fox broadcast out of Youngstown? What channel number are they?

Non-Fox affiliates are required to purchase a DD5.1 encoder if they wish to broadcast DD5.1. At least that was the case our our ABC affiliate.

As I understand it, Dolby has a monopoly on the encoders and they are expensive. If you don't have the encoder then your only option is two channel stereo.

i think you are talking about 27-1 and 27-2 from younstown. I live near bainbridge and get a better signal from them myself. As a side note, i installed the new H20 from directv with the better LC OTA tuner. it is better than my old DTC210, but the H20 does not detect analong stations at all. Directv says, they disabled that feature.

Can anyone help me out? I live in Lyndhurst (near Mayfield) and experienced pretty bad breakups on WJW Fox 8.1 and WOIO 19.1 yesterday.

I would like to try and receive WKBN-DT OTA (Youngstown CBS). What is that channel number?

Also, does Fox broadcast out of Youngstown? What channel number are they?

WKBN-DT(27.1) is on channel 41. There is a Youngstown HDTV thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=444987&goto=newpost

Can anyone help me out? I live in Lyndhurst (near Mayfield) and experienced pretty bad breakups on WJW Fox 8.1 and WOIO 19.1 yesterday.

I would like to try and receive WKBN-DT OTA (Youngstown CBS). What is that channel number?

Also, does Fox broadcast out of Youngstown? What channel number are they?

If you want to watch WKBN-DT OTA, then check out your reception on their analog. I think it's a good indicator whether or not you'll get their DT-41. I live in Akron, and I don't get any picture on their analog 27 because of the terrain, but I get somewhat of a blip on the DT OTA signal that isn't enough to lock in. I'm assuming that if you can get anything from their analog, then you should be able to get their digital.

You need a cable card for digital channels. The only ones that come through without a cable card (for TW) are the music channels and HD locals.

You need a CableCard for encrypted digital channels. Any digital (QAM) channels that are sent in the clear can be picked up by a DCR set without a CableCard inserted.

If you want to watch WKBN-DT OTA, then check out your reception on their analog. I think it's a good indicator whether or not you'll get their DT-41. I live in Akron, and I don't get any picture on their analog 27 because of the terrain, but I get somewhat of a blip on the DT OTA signal that isn't enough to lock in. I'm assuming that if you can get anything from their analog, then you should be able to get their digital.

Not necessarily true. Due to maximization, a digital coverage area can be larger than the analog coverage area. In my case 147kW replicated my analog coverage area, but I'll be at 460 kW in a short time. WKBN was originally allocated 50kW, now they're close to 800kW.

Weather Now on WOIO-DT 19-2 was up just before noon today...

If you want to watch WKBN-DT OTA, then check out your reception on their analog. I think it's a good indicator whether or not you'll get their DT-41. I live in Akron, and I don't get any picture on their analog 27 because of the terrain, but I get somewhat of a blip on the DT OTA signal that isn't enough to lock in. I'm assuming that if you can get anything from their analog, then you should be able to get their digital. My expreirnce with WKBN-DT backs up TV21CHIEF's posting. I get WKBN-DT (rf 41) 24/7, while the analog 27 is marginal. Sometimes it comes in well, but usually it's too snowy to watch, while the digital signal is viewable 99.44% of the time, while for WFMJ-TV analog 21 is stronger than 27, while their digital signal only comes in when the atmosphere gives it a boost.

I'm looking forward to WFMJ-DT's power boost. It's due any day now.

i think you are talking about 27-1 and 27-2 from younstown. I live near bainbridge and get a better signal from them myself. As a side note, i installed the new H20 from directv with the better LC OTA tuner. it is better than my old DTC210, but the H20 does not detect analong stations at all. Directv says, they disabled that feature.The other day I posted a mesage here telling "DaMavs" to try the Youngstown stations. He's from Bainbridge too. The coverage maps off the FCC site puts southern Geauga County inside the circle for all 3 IIRC - WKBN and WFMJ for sure.

snagy, do you get WYTV? If so how well? I wish they would up their power too. We need an alternate ABC for those time when WEWS goes pre-emption crazy (prime-time Matlock anyone?)

Here in Akron, I've been playing around with my antenna for a while, and I can say that the only Youngstown channel that I can get 24/7 is 21 analog (except during the recent DT construction there). I don't understand why this would be the case, and I cannot get WKBN-DT when I'm well within their coverage map. Any ideas why this could be? I can get a blip of signal that isn't enough to lock onto. I've tried many antenna locations. I use a silver sensor with amplifier. I would like to watch WKBN-DT, but an outdoor antenna is out of the question.

Amplifiers will only hinder your attempts to get the Youngstown digital stations.

I have a Silver Sensor, it works fine for the local stations but did not do well getting the Youngstown stations. While I did get WKBN-DT on occasion with the "SS", I was not getting it 24/7 like I do now with my Radio Shack 15-2160 on the roof.

The reason indoor antennas don't work well on the distant channels is because the walls attunuate the signal. If you have aluminum siding indoor antenna are even more of a pain. If you happen to have a window facing the direction of the Youngstown stations, aim the SS out the window. That helps immensely. The higher up you can get the antenna will help too. I had my SS sitting on a stack of cardboard boxes to get it higher.

My expreirnce with WKBN-DT backs up TV21CHIEF's posting. I get WKBN-DT (rf 41) 24/7, while the analog 27 is marginal. Sometimes it comes in well, but usually it's too snowy to watch, while the digital signal is viewable 99.44% of the time, while for WFMJ-TV analog 21 is stronger than 27, while their digital signal only comes in when the atmosphere gives it a boost.

I'm looking forward to WFMJ-DT's power boost. It's due any day now.

Actually I'm on the new antenna now and 21 is back up to full power. Digital is on the top now too but I can't power up until I clear the medical notification window "on or after October 4th". I'd really like to know if my analog is the way it was and curious if 200 feet in height makes a difference on digital.

Actually I'm on the new antenna now and 21 is back up to full power. Digital is on the top now too but I can't power up until I clear the medical notification window "on or after October 4th". I'd really like to know if my analog is the way it was and curious if 200 feet in height makes a difference on digital.

There was a period of a couple weeks where I couldn't get analog 21 here in Akron, but I can now get it just the same as I once could (even the same antenna placement). I couldn't get anything from digital 20. I'll let you know how the digital comes in here when it's up, but I doubt that I'll get it because I can't get WKBN-DT. It's funny that I can get analog 21 no problem but no Youngstown digitals.

Well, it's the end of an era for me. After seven (mostly) happy years with DirecTV, I finally broke down and ordered cable service today. For me, it truly came down to a financial decision.

I currently pay about $170 per month for internet, phone, and D*. Armstrong Cable, the provider here in Medina, is offering a buy-back program that gives me 2 PVRs (one HD for the included HD Advantage Pack), a 5mb internet pipe, and IP telephone for $89 per month for the next 12 months. After that, it rises to $150.

Sure would be nice if somehow D* could compete with that, but A) they don't offer phone service, and B) I'm not shelling out $500 for ONE PVR in order to get the locals without the antenna. I don't even think I'm going to try to go the route of customer retention this time.

To bring it on topic, does anyone here know what PVR box Armstrong is doling out these days? I'd like to at least drool for the next two and a half weeks until it's installed.

Oh, and I guess I have an out. Armstrong only requires a copy of the final satellite bill, so I'll still keep all of my equipment. And since there are no contracts, I guess I could switch back anytime.

I have had Armstrong for a year and a half now with their HD PVR-

The current box is a 6412 running their own software (I do believe it is the microsoft one). They tend to upgrade the software about once a month, and it causes goofy issues like rewind button becoming slow or when you hit the stop button it will take you back to the beginning. It is OK for the price, but won't hold a candle to a Tivo, etc. I have been through 2 already, both became unresponsive. Armstrong is very quick about replacing them (2 days) and they will credit your account for the time out. The other very sucky thing is that you don't have the 30 second skip foward. I tried everything in this forum including buying a new remote that I could program with the 30 second skip forward code, it is software disabled by Armstrong

Armstrong offers two HD PVR boxes the 6412 and a predecesor, which I do believe is the 6208. You want the 6412 since it has 2 tuners, so you can tape 2 HD programs at the same time and watch a prerecorded HD at the same time.

Armstrong HD is great. It is the same channel lineup that their website says. Pay the extra 3 dollars to get the HDNet and HDNet Movies. I have a Samsung DLP and it looks great. The TNT HD also looks good.
If you have a built in HD tuner on your TV, they do simulcast the HD channels in the 100's, like 106-1 is channel 3 and 106-2 is channel 5, etc. Some of their digital advantage channels also come in there.

My biggest disapointment was the analog channels on the 50" screen, it looks very pixelated, then someone at Armstrong answered my prayers. They started broadcasting their basic cable channels in digital (they will show up as the same number, 11 for ESPN, but now it is pulling it from a digital channel. It looks X 1000 better. You still get analog channels for the rest of the TV's (like my kitchen TV, I don't want a box).

Their Indemand is OK. I had it for a little bit with HBO and that was cool, but their basic offerings are "hum".

You will absolutely love Zoom 500. It is very, very good. Ping times usually around 20-30ms which is almost unheard of and most of my speed tests run at 590kbps (very close to 5mb limit). It is always up.

I don't have their phone service, I chose to bring my own voip from viatalk. They do have local numbers or you can port your local number. I didn't have a local number, so they gave me one and it turned out to match Alltel's cell phone exchange 330-441-xxxx . I pay 199 a year for the service and it works out well.

You will like Armstrong, I was happy with the change (came from dish network). The customer service is good, the price is fair (I pay 107 a month - Digital advantage, HD advantage, and Zoom 500)
The only thing you won't like is the moto box.

Can anyone help me out? I live in Lyndhurst (near Mayfield) and experienced pretty bad breakups on WJW Fox 8.1 and WOIO 19.1 yesterday.

I would like to try and receive WKBN-DT OTA (Youngstown CBS). What is that channel number?

Also, does Fox broadcast out of Youngstown? What channel number are they?

Analog is a low-power 62 that you can't get outside of the city limits of Y-town. They also broadcast on subchannel 2 of WKBN.

You will like Armstrong, I was happy with the change (came from dish network). The customer service is good, the price is fair (I pay 107 a month - Digital advantage, HD advantage, and Zoom 500)
The only thing you won't like is the moto box.

Thank you for the great response. I really appreciate it. I just hope that since I've never used a DVR before I won't be as disappointed in the box as you say. I did get a brief chance to play with one last weekend at a friend's house, and I thought it looked pretty cool. and the VOD stuff looked promising. How often do they update it? And do they offer any HD VOD?

And in case anybody else cares, I can't agree with you more about Zoom 500. I've been a customer for the internet pipe for a little over a year now, and it has been absolutely rock solid. (Knock on wood) I can't recall it ever going down, and it is more than fast. It's amazing that sometimes companies actually still do deliver what they sell you.

Thank you for the great response. I really appreciate it. I just hope that since I've never used a DVR before I won't be as disappointed in the box as you say. I did get a brief chance to play with one last weekend at a friend's house, and I thought it looked pretty cool. and the VOD stuff looked promising. How often do they update it? And do they offer any HD VOD?

And in case anybody else cares, I can't agree with you more about Zoom 500. I've been a customer for the internet pipe for a little over a year now, and it has been absolutely rock solid. (Knock on wood) I can't recall it ever going down, and it is more than fast. It's amazing that sometimes companies actually still do deliver what they sell you.

6412 -
They update it sporadically. It usually will happen at night around 2 - 3 AM and it will show a strange display on the front of the box like UpDaTe (looks warez ish) It lasts about 10-15 minutes. I can usually tell when they update it because it will become more responsive in something but it will loose something else. Case in point, they had a problem six months ago with the PVR's accidentally saying they were full, when you delete a :30 minute program, it would go back to saying 10% full. It didn't make sense. They fixed it, but then when you hit stop while watching a prerecorded program, it would go back to the beginning (they fixed that too). I always had the feeling that they fixed one thing and accidentally caused something else to go bad. During that time, they did send out a letter apologizing for the issues and gave everyone with the PVR's a $10 credit, that says alot. Past 3 months have been stable with the box.
I did come from having a dish network PVR and loved it compared to the motorola box, but it too was my first. Others will respond that the Dish Network PVR's are crap compared to the Tivo's. I think you will be very happy with the PVR if it is your first (kinda like you turn 16 and that Escort really is cool!!)
The moto box does have some nice features like allowing you to schedule to record only first run episodes and it will grab the program by name, regardless of time or channel. Also you will find out that it will only hold about 10 hours of HD content compared to 100 hours of standard def, but you can have a combo of both and will realize that it is worth having the small space just to get the good HD content.

- In Demand - It is only standard definition and good quality (first two weeks it came out it was very pixelated, but it was growing pains). Most of the stuff is filler (movie trailers, CNN footage, etc). They used to have boomerang on demand which my Daughter loved since she could watch scoobie doo, but they killed it. It is disappointing. I did have HBO for about a year and did have the indemand portion as well, and that was cool. There was a good amount of movie selections. You can actually look at them, all of them, but when you click on them, it will tell you "subscription required".

The only other thing that you will love is the Armstrong ads that play. They have a nice musical ad trying to keep people from switching from cable to satellite with people crying that "when it snows or rains, my signal goes out" "I signed a contract, oh no". It is a bit disceptful since I have seen a couple of times digital "noise" on their streams during bad weather and I have used dish network system in some pretty nasty weather and it still worked.

Is anyone getting the MPEG4 digital/HD locals off D* yet? If so, by any chance is DD available on CBS and ABC? I'm really not expecting a "yes" answer; but thought I would ask anyway?

I'm sure I get a better picture with an OTA antenna feeding my HD Tivo. So, I'm in no hurry for "upgrading" to the HR20. However, if DD were available via the HR20 (MPEG4 locals) on CBS and ABC; and the HR20 eventually activates it's OTA capability, I would probably upgrade to have the option of trading off picture quality for DD on some programs.

Slightly different topic: If anyone is currently getting the MPEG4 locals, how do find the HD quality versus D* MPEG2 lite?

Analog is a low-power 62 that you can't get outside of the city limits of Y-town. They also broadcast on subchannel 2 of WKBN.I watch WYFX nearly every day here in Parma via WKBN-DT. It's SD,of course,however getting the occasional extra NFL game in SD is better than not getting it at all.

Yesterday Cleveland and Youngstown stations carried the exact same games, the previous week I was able to watch 2 CBS games: Cincinnati at Pittsburgh at 1 from WKBN-DT and Baltimore at Cleveland at 4 on WOIO-DT, plus WYFX had both FOX games (Cleveland was the only FOX market w/o a double header due to the Browns being televised at home on CBS).

Is anyone getting the MPEG4 digital/HD locals off D* yet? If so, by any chance is DD available on CBS and ABC? I'm really not expecting a "yes" answer; but thought I would ask anyway?

I'm sure I get a better picture with an OTA antenna feeding my HD Tivo. So, I'm in no hurry for "upgrading" to the HR20. However, if DD were available via the HR20 (MPEG4 locals) on CBS and ABC; and the HR20 eventually activates it's OTA capability, I would probably upgrade to have the option of trading off picture quality for DD on some programs.

Slightly different topic: If anyone is currently getting the MPEG4 locals, how do find the HD quality versus D* MPEG2 lite?
DD 5.1 will not be available on CBS or ABC from Cleveland locals until WOIO and WEWS break the bank and purchase the necessary equipment. The sattellite and cable feeds of these stations still have to originate from these stations. OTOH if you have the ability to go OTA, try for WKBN-DT - you'll get CBS HD & DD 5.1 plus newscasts that won't offend your intellegence :D :p

MPEG4 is for the benefit of the satellite companies, not the viewers. The OTA stations are broadcast in MPEG2 to begin with.

Is anyone getting the MPEG4 digital/HD locals off D* yet? If so, by any chance is DD available on CBS and ABC? I'm really not expecting a "yes" answer; but thought I would ask anyway?

I'm sure I get a better picture with an OTA antenna feeding my HD Tivo. So, I'm in no hurry for "upgrading" to the HR20. However, if DD were available via the HR20 (MPEG4 locals) on CBS and ABC; and the HR20 eventually activates it's OTA capability, I would probably upgrade to have the option of trading off picture quality for DD on some programs.

Slightly different topic: If anyone is currently getting the MPEG4 locals, how do find the HD quality versus D* MPEG2 lite?

cant tell the difference for me between Mpeg4 and OTA, only problem right now is ABC has HORRIBLE playback issues, and that is on their ENd, other then that, I love my MPeg4 locals!

cant tell the difference for me between Mpeg4 and OTA, only problem right now is ABC has HORRIBLE playback issues, and that is on their ENd, other then that, I love my MPeg4 locals!

Watched recorded episodes of Grays Anatomy and 6 degrees last night. Picture was perfect, no sound issues via TiVo S3 and TW.

Watched recorded episodes of Grays Anatomy and 6 degrees last night. Picture was perfect, no sound issues via TiVo S3 and TW.

The playback only affects Mpeg4 Directv users, they are working on it, I have gotten calls from Directvs tech department.

OK, I'm powered up. Reception reports from both analog and digital would be greatly appreciated.

19-2 was on the air last night. They have both weather and news updates. Withthe exceptionof the news updates it's just about a carbon copy of WKYC's Weather plus.

OK, I'm powered up. Reception reports from both analog and digital would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks! When I get home I'll check it out.

BTW: Last night 21 analog was looking good here in Parma. Just a small bit of snow and hardly any interference from WOIO. The digital side was too weak to stay locked. I did get an occasional frame or two admidst a sea of broken pixels. Previously all I got was a blank screen.

TW sent out a supervisor and a lead tech to instal my cablecards in my S3 TiVo. Both guys were very knowledgeable and wanted to overview the install as according to Lenny, the supervisor, "This is the first TiVo we've installed cable cards into."

Lenny had done some research and had the same sheet that came with my TiVo. They checked my signal at box, basement, and wall to make sure I had a good signal. Install had a little hitch with the second card but we found we needed to wait a bit for that card to take. All in all pretty smooth and man am I glad to get rid of that SA 8300.

PQ is wonderful on all HD channels. Color me happy. :)

OK, I'm powered up. Reception reports from both analog and digital would be greatly appreciated.

Anyways, still no picture on WFMJ-DT even after the power increase. I can see a slight increase in the signal meter on my TV, but not strong enough to lock into. I've tried with and without an amplifier, moving the antenna up, down, right, left, 360 degrees, out a window in Youngstown's direction, and whatever... still no picture. Can anyone think of reasons for why this would be? I get 21 analog fine. I would like to watch some Youngstown digitals, but I haven't been successful. It's fustrating :mad:

Withthe exceptionof the news updates it's just about a carbon copy of WKYC's Weather plus.

Mostly local weather coverage...
Easier to receive than DT-2...
News bulletins... weather & traffic cams...

Ed...

So what happened to 5.1 sound for WEWS? Someone here reported last January that WEWS had the equipment and would soon install it.

No picture yet but on my TiVo S3's guide WNEO DT is showing on channel 715 with a grey screen. That usually means it's coming.

Anyone with SA 8000 or SA 8300, do you see it?

The playback only affects Mpeg4 Directv users, they are working on it, I have gotten calls from Directvs tech department.
Recorded Boston Legal on Tuesday on the HR20 from DTV>
Playback was HORRIBLE. Many breakups.
What is the latest from WEWS on when they will fix problem. Watching live shows is not a problem

The other day I posted a mesage here telling "DaMavs" to try the Youngstown stations. He's from Bainbridge too. The coverage maps off the FCC site puts southern Geauga County inside the circle for all 3 IIRC - WKBN and WFMJ for sure.

snagy, do you get WYTV? If so how well? I wish they would up their power too. We need an alternate ABC for those time when WEWS goes pre-emption crazy (prime-time Matlock anyone?)


sorry for the delay in my response. i get WYTV with at least 60% signal. My 21 and 27 and 33 are all pretty good. Joel did a great job for me. My new problem now is the H20 is starting to act up already, When recording to DVD from any of the digital channels like 5-1 or 8-1, i get a copy-protected error message from my dvd-recorder. now my wifes soaps have to be recorded from normal 5 and or 8. I'm really getting pissed at the H20, ready to go back to my old RCA HD receiver, less problems there.

OK, I'm powered up. Reception reports from both analog and digital would be greatly appreciated.

Nothing here on the south border of Medina. Analog comes in with quite a bit of snow, and digital doesn't lock. I lost the remote that lets me check signal strength on the digital, so I'm sorry to say I can't tell you how much strength there was.

I've been able to lock on to the digital sporadically over the past year or so. It's definitely weather related when I do get it.

Recorded Boston Legal on Tuesday on the HR20 from DTV>
Playback was HORRIBLE. Many breakups.
What is the latest from WEWS on when they will fix problem. Watching live shows is not a problem


Just got an email from Mike at WEWS, there encoders are now at the latest software, and its no longer on their end. I also have recieved several phone calls from Directv's Tech Department who say they are now working on their end, I can only hope this means all new equipment on their end. So Either they get this fixed, or turn on OTA, I cant wait!

[QUOTE]
Hookbill "PQ is wonderful on all HD channels. Color me happy."

Hey Hookbill, glad all went well! Do you notice a better picture than with the 8300? How is the TIVO compared to the 8300? You've been waiting a long time to get this all working and I want to know the details. Did you get the hard drive you were using to work so your time of saved programs is extended? Your insights are requested!

No picture yet but on my TiVo S3's guide WNEO DT is showing on channel 715 with a grey screen. That usually means it's coming.

Anyone with SA 8000 or SA 8300, do you see it?

Not here on my 8000.

I don't think the change had anything to do with TWC actually making it live on the ex-Adelphia systems, but rather, to TiVo finally updating the HD lineup to match the lineup TWC put on... TNTHD and The Tube also got added, according to the message on my SA S2 TiVo.

Of course, I blocked 'em out as soon as that came in, since the S2 doesn't do HD. ;)

OK, I'm powered up. Reception reports from both analog and digital would be greatly appreciated.

Getting not a whit of signal on DT 20 here in northwest Akron, just up the road from Andrew here. RS indoor amplified antenna pointed out a second story window in the same direction that gets WKBN-DT.

I'm guessing that we're terrain shadowed from you this far over? I do have some trees in front of it, a ways off, but I can still get WKBN-DT (barely).

I have another antenna that I'll be picking up tomorrow (if I remember!) that I'll try it with.

Looks like Fox 8 is about to undergo a rebranding/graphics change. Going to the website listed on their 4x3 news pillars, the website has a completely cheesy and different look than the station's current package.

I find their pillars very annoying, too bold, too bright and they distract from the 4x3 video. Plus, on my CRT you see about half of the graphic in the pillar.

Looks like Fox 8 is about to undergo a rebranding/graphics change. Going to the website listed on their 4x3 news pillars, the website has a completely cheesy and different look than the station's current package.

I find their pillars very annoying, too bold, too bright and they distract from the 4x3 video. Plus, on my CRT you see about half of the graphic in the pillar.

I don't like their pillars either on HD. Notice that the web site is still beta. You need Macromedia 8 but if you have Macromedia 9 installed it doesn't work. I sent them an e mail on this using their form and it came back as an unknown web site.

Seems they jumped the gun on putting up that site.

Looks like Fox 8 is about to undergo a rebranding/graphics change. Going to the website listed on their 4x3 news pillars, the website has a completely cheesy and different look than the station's current package.

I find their pillars very annoying, too bold, too bright and they distract from the 4x3 video. Plus, on my CRT you see about half of the graphic in the pillar.

In fact, I was thinking the same thing about the pillars. It looks like they didn't give much effort into designing something that's easy to watch. The red-blue mix doesn't go well together and is very distracting. You read my mind. I'm sure they'll work it out.

What is this My Fox 8 anyways? Does this mean that their news is getting a makeover with the graphics?

Mostly local weather coverage...
Easier to receive than DT-2...
News bulletins... weather & traffic cams...

Ed...

Yes, it looks like WOIO-DTs subchannel is a locally-produced product, as opposed to WKYC-DTs Weather Plus, which I think is nationally distributed with local inserts.

It looks like WOIO is allocating the minimum bandwidth to this subchannel - lots of macroblocking. To me, it looks worse than WKYC-DTs subchannel. That's not necessarily a bad thing - I would rather see them allocate more bandwidth to the main channel.

Of course, the bad news is the Action News inserts and promotions. We really don't need (or want) to see any more of Action News! :D

What is this My Fox 8 anyways? Does this mean that their news is getting a makeover with the graphics?

"My Space.com" "My Network" "My Fox" It seems to be the direction Fox wants to head. All Fox products.

MPEG4 is for the benefit of the satellite companies, not the viewers. The OTA stations are broadcast in MPEG2 to begin with.

Yes, original broadcast is in MPEG2; but 1080i is 1920x1080 at around 19 mps. In order to fit more stations per transponder, D* has reduced resolution and bit rate (i.e., HD lite).

Our assumption/hope was that when D* went to MPEG4, and began using the significant capacity of the new spot beam satellites; they would provide full resolution. Hope was that MPEG4 would provide picture quality comparable to OTA (just a different/more efficient encryption scheme).

[QUOTE]
Hookbill "PQ is wonderful on all HD channels. Color me happy."

Hey Hookbill, glad all went well! Do you notice a better picture than with the 8300? How is the TIVO compared to the 8300? You've been waiting a long time to get this all working and I want to know the details. Did you get the hard drive you were using to work so your time of saved programs is extended? Your insights are requested!

Anyone else having problems with 43-1 and 2
I used to get it on my panasonic and now it says poor picture quality. Signal strength is 77
DTV H20-600 gets it.
Any ideas?

[Hey Hookbill, glad all went well! Do you notice a better picture than with the 8300? How is the TIVO compared to the 8300? You've been waiting a long time to get this all working and I want to know the details. Did you get the hard drive you were using to work so your time of saved programs is extended? Your insights are requested!

I've been talking a great deal about it on the TiVo boards, but since you asked I'll give you a run down.

I had the SA 8300 running along side of the S3 and there was a noticeable difference in pq. S3 with the THX technology is much better on HD. I did not notice much difference on the digital channels, but on the analog channels there was a huge difference with the TiVo S3. Much clearer picture, matter of fact the picture on the analog locals was better then the digital locals (except hd, of course)

The S3 has a 250 gb hard drive which means 35 hours HD and depending on your pq quality for SD it varys. If your interested in other details here's a FAQ (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=315791) you can take a look at and will probably answer all your other questions.

Oh and there is a site now that is selling the S3 for $699.00 (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=320690) including free shipping if anyone is interested.

Not here on my 8000.

I don't think the change had anything to do with TWC actually making it live on the ex-Adelphia systems, but rather, to TiVo finally updating the HD lineup to match the lineup TWC put on... TNTHD and The Tube also got added, according to the message on my SA S2 TiVo.

Of course, I blocked 'em out as soon as that came in, since the S2 doesn't do HD. ;)


WNEO must be coming though because it is on TW's cable line up card (http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/1/Content%20Management/Customer%20Service/documents/ADCCChannels8106/TWCCWK-5013%20NEO%20IP%20LU-ClevSub_072006c.pdf) . And I remember handsworth saying it was coming as well as Universal HD

Have any of the REGULAR season Brown's games been broadast in Hi-def on Channel 19 this year? I don't remember one regular season game being broadcast in true Hi-def. I just got in an argument with a guy about this. I know for sure the last 2 have not.

Have any of the REGULAR season Brown's games been broadast in Hi-def on Channel 19 this year? I don't remember one regular season game being broadcast in true Hi-def. I just got in an argument with a guy about this. I know for sure the last 2 have not.

IIRC, the first regular season Browns game was on Fox in HD. There have been no Browns games in HD on CBS to date.

19-2 was on the air last night. They have both weather and news updates. Withthe exceptionof the news updates it's just about a carbon copy of WKYC's Weather plus.

That confirms my suspicion that WOIO is allocating less than 15Mbps to the main (HD) channel now. I'm out of town this week so I can't witness this travesty. The era of pristine CBS HD quality in Cleveland is now officially over. Lump them in with the same crap NBC is serving up for live sports.

Forget the 1080p plasma I was going to buy in 2007.... I'm bringing the ED plasma back out of the closet. :mad:

IIRC, the first regular season Browns game was on Fox in HD. There have been no Browns games in HD on CBS to date.

Thank you. I told this guy that the maybe the Saints game was but I couldn't remember for sure.

This is a disgrace by the way. Is their a petition out yet for the NFL and/or CBS?

This is a disgrace by the way. Is their a petition out yet for the NFL and/or CBS?

There's been many a thread on AVS complaining about CBS only having 3 games a week in HD. The theory was the NFL would require all HD games in 2009, but I remember reading about some loophole in that. Hard to beleive CBS wouldn't have their act together (or someone else getting the AFC contract) by then, but you never know.

Hate to say it, but since WOIO is now multicasting, it almost doesn't matter to me anymore. Even if every Browns game were in HD tomorrow, the picture would suck just like NBC's Sunday night game. The NFL should just give contracts to quality 720p networks and forget about 1080i. Multicasting has ruined 1080i.

Thanks Hookbill, I'll check it out

There's been many a thread on AVS complaining about CBS only having 3 games a week in HD. The theory was the NFL would require all HD games in 2009, but I remember reading about some loophole in that. Hard to beleive CBS wouldn't have their act together (or someone else getting the AFC contract) by then, but you never know.

Hate to say it, but since WOIO is now multicasting, it almost doesn't matter to me anymore. Even if every Browns game were in HD tomorrow, the picture would suck just like NBC's Sunday night game. The NFL should just give contracts to quality 720p networks and forget about 1080i. Multicasting has ruined 1080i.

Raycom should have put the stupid new weather channel on WUAB alongside The Tube, since WUAB is now broadcasing in 720p (which should allow more bandwidth for subs than 1080i), rather than messing up the CBS PQ.

EDIT:

If MNTV uses the splicer system, like FOX does, they probably only send out 9-10Mbps. That would leave room for probably 3-4 subs.

Raycom should have put the stupid new weather channel on WUAB alongside The Tube, since WUAB is now broadcasing in 720p (which should room allow for 2 subs), rather than messing up the CBS PQ.

When did WUAB start broadcasting in 720p?

When did WUAB start broadcasting in 720p?

Since they started carrying MyNetwork TV, I believe, which broadcasts in 720p (since MNTV is Fox-owned)

At least my DVR indicates that they are sending out 720p now.