Cleveland, OH - TWC [Text View] - Page 42

hookbill

11-05-07, 12:30 PM

Did anyone notice that WOIO showed the end of the Patriots/Colts game Sunday evening while the Browns were in overtime? So how does that happen if the Cleveland market was not suppose to recieve it? Our local WOIO engineer was asleep at the booth since the game was in SD instead of HD, so the proverbial switch was not switched.

Ray

I don't understand. Are you saying they switched briefly and then got back to the Browns game? Or they swithced and then left it in SD?

If you're saying they switched and did not show the rest of the game I find that very hard to believe. I didn't watch until the end as I'm not a Browns fan but I'm sure someone would have reported that either here earlier or at least it would have turned up at Ohio Media Watch. That would have been a big deal and no mention of it anywhere except your post.

Rbuchina

11-05-07, 01:00 PM

Hook,

The Browns were on FOX Sunday and the 4PM CBS game was not suppose to be shown here in Cleveland. During a time out in overtime of the Browns game I switched over to WOIO and they had the last few minutes of the Pats/Colts game on.

Ray

hookbill

11-05-07, 01:21 PM

Michael P 2341

11-05-07, 01:48 PM

That explains why all the CBS programming was delayed equally on both WOIO and WKBN. I was expecting to see an on-time CBS feed on WOIO since they did not show the game.

When CBS has the "single header" there are 2 different CBS prime time feeds; one on time (for the stations that showed an early game) and one delayed (for those stations that showed a late game). Since CBS had a double header, they did not start 60 minutes on time for the few stations that were blocked from showing the Pats/Colts game.

BTW: when there is 2 separate Sunday prime time CBS feeds, only one of them are in HD.

For anybody who gets WKBN-DT, did you notice that they lost audio (both on the game and the commercials) in the middle of the game? I was switching between WJW and WKBN during the Browns game (why watch commercials when the super-hyped "GOTY" was on?).

BTW2: When football runs over on FOX they truncate the regular prime-time schedule (there was an old "Simpsons" "Tree house of Horror" episode that they cut in half to get back on schedule). I guess CBS thinks "60 Minutes" is too important to truncate (they don't want to rename it "37.5 minutes" :D )

hookbill

11-05-07, 02:29 PM

jtscherne

11-05-07, 03:09 PM

Gotta keep track of double header Sundays. In this case, I'm sure 19 switched at the time 60 minutes was supposed to start and got the end of the football game instead.

lefkas

11-05-07, 03:18 PM

"For anybody who gets WKBN-DT, did you notice that they lost audio (both on the game and the commercials) in the middle of the game? I was switching between WJW and WKBN during the Browns game (why watch commercials when the super-hyped "GOTY" was on?)."

Yes, I noticed that too. Thought it was my TV or tuner until I switched over to 27-2, which was carrying the Browns game and the sound was fine. It was very convenient to watch Indy-NE in HD on 27-1 OTA and flip to 27-2 for the Bowns during commercials or slower parts of the game.

k2rj

11-05-07, 03:22 PM

BTW: when there are 2 separate Sunday prime time CBS feeds, only one of them is in HD.
The "late" feed was in HD (I watched Cold Case and recorded Shark via manual time setting.) It used to be that the "on-time" feed was HD. Maybe they sprung for 2 HD feeds this season?

Lighting Guy

11-05-07, 05:24 PM

hookbill

11-05-07, 05:41 PM

Info about the writer's strike if you haven't heard about it yet
Although this isn't specific to HD, its mostly prime time shows which are in HD so...

Late-night during strike: No laughing matter
http://tv.yahoo.com/saturday-night-live/show/194/news/urn:newsml:tv.reuters.com:20071105:screenwriters_shows_dc__E R:33067

I'm on Strike! (Thank God, I've Got a Day Job)
http://pajamasmedia.com/2007/11/im_on_strike_thank_god_ive_got.php

Yeah, I was hoping it would be a short strike but it doesn't look that way.:(

Oh well, I'm probably going back to work in a few weeks, full time and it may be nights so I won't be watching as much tv anyways.

nickdawg

11-05-07, 05:49 PM

hookbill

11-05-07, 05:55 PM

"Family Guy" and "American Dad" I recorded started on time. I wish "Cold Case" and "Shark" did too. A good show for CBS to cut would be The Amazing Race. That show is way overdue for cancellation!

Ummm...dude did you not see the post about the writers strike?;)

Here's a better thread to get an idea of what might happen. It appears that primetime shows will make it to the end of the season.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/11/05/writers.strike/index.html

Michael P 2341

11-05-07, 06:03 PM

The "late" feed was in HD (I watched Cold Case and recorded Shark via manual time setting.) It used to be that the "on-time" feed was HD. Maybe they sprung for 2 HD feeds this season?

All there was last night was one late feed. Because 98% of the country had NE @ IND, and Houston had Hou @ SD (SD was balcked out so every California DMA had to flip to NE/IND). That left WOIO as the only CBS affiliate not showing a late game. If CBS was to provide an "on time" feed for WOIO it would not have been in HD (or if they did have a feed WOIO chose to cheat by showing the tail end of the NE/IND game). At least everyone got the HD feed that way.

orange5814

11-06-07, 06:40 PM

Is anyone experiencing "popping" noises on WKYC right now. I have been trying to watch the 6 o'clock news, and now NBC news and the sound is aweful. It appears to be only on TW 703. Any thoughts???

edjrwinnt

11-06-07, 06:58 PM

Is anyone experiencing "popping" noises on WKYC right now. I have been trying to watch the 6 o'clock news, and now NBC news and the sound is aweful. It appears to be only on TW 703. Any thoughts???

Yes! I am experiencing the same noises too. I thought it was something wrong with my system. I'm getting it over OTA.

hookbill

11-06-07, 07:08 PM

Yes! I am experiencing the same noises too. I thought it was something wrong with my system. I'm getting it over OTA.

Bad weather sometimes affects digital broadcasts. There has been a lot of thunder and lightning. I suspect that may be the culpret.

Fox 8 news was fine.

Edit: Just thought about it, WKYC is also on a VHF frequency. Probably another reason why it might be more weather sensitive.

nickdawg

11-06-07, 10:40 PM

Lighting Guy

11-06-07, 10:48 PM

orange5814

11-06-07, 11:12 PM

Today's d-bag award goes to WKYC for shutting off the HD version of L&O SVU to show election results that are not even complete yet. :( They should wait till the 11pm news, there will be more accurate number by then.

I would like to see daily D-BAG awards in this particular forum. I have to watch SD, and I don't even get to see the election results that I want. Kinda interesting how they get rid of the results for the commercials though, is'nt it... Gotta keep that cash rollin' in. D-BAGS:rolleyes:

hookbill

11-07-07, 06:26 AM

Rbuchina

11-07-07, 10:07 AM

dj9

11-07-07, 12:29 PM

orange5814

11-07-07, 02:35 PM

I caught that too. I cannot remember what I was watching at the time but I was surprized to see the ticker going by without a drop in audio from 5.1 and a drop in video from HD to SD.

Ray

If I recall, I think that during Jeopardy they run a ticker at the bottom with lotto results or something like that. I think it is a green colored ticker. You are correct though, it stays HD the whole time.:)

nickdawg

11-07-07, 08:32 PM

I noticed the other day that WEWS was putting news info on the bottom of the screen without going to SD. I don't know quite how they did it but it appeared to stay on HD on the top while delivering the message.

Still didn't look great but better then the SD side bar thing.

WEWS also does it during GMA, the overlay their own news crawl over the HD version of GMA. I've also seen it in prime time to run weather advisories instead of switching back to SD. I'm really impressed by WEWS on this. It's better that they put their graphic over the HD version and just center cut it for SD instead of forcing the HD channel back to SD. The election results during Boston Legal were awesome, because they had a larger picture and the color side bars. L&O was a microscopic picture in the middle of black space.

WJW has done that since I got HDTV last year.

I don't recall ever seeing this on WJW. They still go back to SD for weather warnings/maps. I have seen school closings over their local originated contnet, though.

Norm78

11-08-07, 12:37 PM

I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this, but I received a post card from Time Warner Cable last weekend detailing a few price changes effective Dec 1st.

Digital Converters decrease from 7.65/mo to 7.21/mo
Remotes increase from .30/mo to .31/mo
HDTV DVR boxes decrease from 8.65/mo to 7.21/mo
HBO or SHO decrease from 15.95/mo to 12.00/mo
DRV service is 6.95/mo

I switched to HDTV DVR from Digital DVR and kept the same internet. It ended up being about 6.00/mo cheaper than what I was originally paying. Now I can only hope they start adding more HD channels. I am inclined to think this is in response to TW customers not being able to get B10 and NFLN and customers switching to DTV.

hookbill

11-08-07, 01:37 PM

Michael P 2341

11-08-07, 02:32 PM

nosey313

11-08-07, 07:02 PM

I've seen some postings on the subject, but haven't seen any resolution. I'm watching CBS on my Sony KDL-40XBR2 through a SA8300DVR via Time Warner Macedonia. I have been having the audio problems with some shows over the last few weeks. The Unit, Cane, etc. I'm just using the audio through my TV, no surround sound, no receiver. I get the low dialog with loud background audio. Has anyone heard of the issue or a possible solution? Any info is appreciated.

dleising

11-08-07, 07:47 PM

Watching FSNO SD feed off E*, the wide shot of the court looked terrible. I believe E* used too much compression, however I do not have another source to compare.

Those of you with cable or D* did it look bad to you as well? Was this game in HD? It's possible that it was HD and downrezzed for the SD feed.

Thanks in advance!

It looked decent on FSN, nothing I wouldn't expect for an SD broadcast. I watched the game on ESPN (obviously, because it was in HD, FSN didn't put out HD for this one, but I was impressed with the PQ for the FSN HD broadcast when the Cavs were in Phoenix).

mnowlin

11-09-07, 12:26 AM

Let the experiment begin... After my 8300HDC once again failed to record two of my wife's shows within three days, I got an angry "How do we fix this???" (I was waiting for that.) :) Finally have her OK to get a Tivo HD (or Series 3 - still debating.)

Called TWC's customer service number to ask about CableCards. They looked up my account and told me I could just drop by the local (Akron) office and pick them up. Of course, things are never as simple as they seem. Drove over there, stood in line, and got a blank stare when I asked about the cards. The CSR asked a few other people if they knew anything about CableCards - finally figured out they didn't stock them in the office, and there was a form to fill out requesting that someone call you to schedule a technician visit - they found the form about 20 minutes later (it's a web page on their internal site). Three days later (today), they called, and I have an appointment a week from now to have the cards installed.

Time to decide which Tivo I want - looks like I have until Monday or so to allow for activation time....

mnowlin

11-09-07, 12:58 AM

Norm78

11-09-07, 06:06 AM

hookbill

11-09-07, 07:23 AM

As I mentioned before I have TW bring out an HDTV DVR on sat. morning. I've always been aware of the SA 8300HD, but when I asked the CSR at TW she also mentioned that the tech may have a Pioneer HDTV DVR that I could choose from. Has anyone had any experience with this STB?

I never heard of it. And I doubt she knew what she was talking about. See above post about CSR experience.

Oh and if you experience some minor problems with the SA 8300, like not recording what you want or partial only recordings, major macro blocking and frequent pixelation, sound drop offs that start to drive you nuts, then look into the HD TiVo. Not as expensive as the S3 but a nice alternative.

Then you can bring the SA 8300 back to TW. I suggest tie it with a rope to the bumper of your car (see my signature).

hookbill

11-09-07, 07:26 AM

HD MM

11-09-07, 08:19 AM

For those folks looking to jump into the TiVo world, please be informed that they have temporarily brought back the lifetime subscription offer for Series 3/ HD owners....

See link: here (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/11/08/tivo-temporarily-reinstates-400-lifetime-subscription-for-serie/)

hookbill

11-09-07, 08:33 AM

Thanks for the heads up! I'll probably do this, I'm one year into my 3 year contract now.

Cathode Kid

11-09-07, 09:44 AM

I never heard of it. And I doubt she knew what she was talking about.

With the advent of OCAP, some third party manufacturers are getting into the cable DVR game. I've seen some Samsung OCAP STBs out there.

hookbill

11-09-07, 09:51 AM

With the advent of OCAP, some third party manufacturers are getting into the cable DVR game. I've seen some Samsung OCAP DVRs out there.

In our area? That seems extremely unlikely. They got their hands full at TW just trying to get the DVR's on the same page.

So just to clarify, are you seeing this in our area?

stuart628

11-09-07, 09:56 AM

intermod

11-09-07, 10:20 AM

Yo' You's,

The Channel 61 tower has an extinguished top light. I can't find any "Contact Us"
link on thier web page. Phone number goes unanswered. P*sses me off. Fax works,
this place makes Raycom look like "Diamond Jim".

Cleveland 2861 W Ridgewood Dr
Parma, OH (440) 888-0661 (440) 888-7023 fax

Transmitter Power 2,000 kW Analog
525 kW Digital
Height|354 m (1161.42 ft) Analog
333.8 m (1095.14 ft) Digital
Class|Full Time TV Station (-TV)
Full Time HD Station (-DT)
Facility ID|60556
Transmitter Coordinates|41° 22' 58.00" N LAT
81° 42' 7.00" W LON

For your viewing pleasure that tower is just west of WOIO's stick.
You'll see it, Its the one with no toplight.

Memo to Univision: Get an answering machine, remember the FAA
is always "open".

I have reported Tower Illumination issues to almost all of the stations
here on the hill over the years and have always found them easy to
get a hold of and very proffesional. I just called the NOTAM hotline
and there is 1 NOTAM re: tower illumination logged ESE from CLE .
Since call letters don't mean much to pilots the FAA dosent use them.
I have to assume that they logged it, now the question is when
will they fix it?

/Dan

FYI:

Reporting a Tower Light Outage to the FAA

Jun 6, 2007 10:30 AM

When a tower is not properly lit because of a light outage, the tower owner is required to notify the FAA. Doing so creates a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) that is available to all pilot in regularly published notices and also through the FAA's NOTAM phone service at 800-WX-BRIEF.

In the past, tower owners would often call a local FAA flight service center to report the outage. Some flight centers continue to accept calls, but many stations and tower owners are finding that the phone number for a local flight service center has changed after the outage occurs.

The FAA has established a single, nationwide phone number to log NOTAMs. Call 877-487-6867 and the call will be routed to the appropriate flight service center.

When you call, be prepared to provide the tower registration number (also called an ASR number). This is the seven-digit number that is assigned to all FCC-registered towers. During our call to the NOTAM line to verify this information, we were also advised that it would be helpful to have the name of the airport nearest to the tower.

The person taking the information will provide a file number to reference the report. The tower owner should keep this number on file in the station log.

A NOTAM is valid for 15 days. It will automatically expire at that time, and the FAA will notify the FCC that the outage has been corrected. If the outage is not corrected within 15 days, the station should call the NOTAM office and file a new NOTAM. This will delete the old one and create a new one.

hookbill

11-09-07, 10:23 AM

hey hook do you get a kickback for each tivo you sell? :) any word yet (and sorry I dont follow the tivo game closely as I should I do love tivo, just have dish network) on the whole SDV and cable card and tivo not working? if they get that up and runnning, and TW gets big ten and nfl network, then that would maybe get me back in the cable game, but not until those three.

You gotta understand my situation. Had I been able to get a signal I probably would have gone with satellite. I've never been fond of cable.

Having said that and using the SA 8300 and being a former TiVo user I understand what a complete piece of crap it is (the SA 8300). :)

Now to answer your real questions. As far as the SDV issue, which probably won't be one around here for some time they have been working with the cable companies on what they call the "dongle". This device would attach to the cable end and then into the TiVo. It is suppose to allow two way communication, which would take care of SDV.

There is no way that cable in our are can compete at this time with D* or even E* in the HD area. Personally I could care less about big 10 or the NFL network so it's no loss for me.

HD MM

11-09-07, 12:31 PM

To anyone who's interested, The Plain Dealer had a story on today's front page about at&t U-verse expanding services and their competition with Time-Warner in Ohio........

See article: here. (http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/business-4/1194601478307530.xml&coll=2&thispage=1)

hookbill

11-09-07, 12:47 PM

Might be good for people who just watch TV and don't use a DVR. I understand they can only deliver 1 HD channel at a time with their DVR.

jtscherne

11-09-07, 01:22 PM

It will be interesting to see how this affects Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights, both of whom would not allow the U-verse boxes to be installed in their cities. Does the new state law preempt this?

To anyone who's interested, The Plain Dealer had a story on today's front page about at&t U-verse expanding services and their competition with Time-Warner in Ohio........

See article: here. (http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/business-4/1194601478307530.xml&coll=2&thispage=1)

HD MM

11-09-07, 01:34 PM

I don't know how select cities can be exempt from the coming of the "big-ugly boxes", but according to the article:

"An Ohio law that took effect in September requires video-service providers to obtain only one state-issued franchise agreement instead of having to cut separate deals with each community where they want to do business. AT&T, the nation's largest telephone company, becomes the first to do that."

jtscherne

11-09-07, 01:40 PM

Ask the cellphone companies who have problems in certain areas getting approval to put up towers. To me, if a particular city decides it doesn't like what something does to their look, they should have the right to say so. I'm just wondering whether the new law takes this right away.

hookbill

11-09-07, 03:33 PM

I think they will only be offering service where they offer phone service, at least that was my take on it.

In my area it's Windstream, so I suppose that U-Verse will never be available in my part of town.

And that could be the "select areas" thing.

hookbill

11-09-07, 05:15 PM

First of all, there is no such thing as a "Pioneer HD DVR". Most of the customer service people have no clue what they are talking about. She may be confused with the nod-DVR Pioneer BD-V3510HD box.

Also, to the person getting the TW DVR: don't really buy into everything you hear. There are some probelms, but if you get a box that works, it's not that bad. I was one of the first to get an 8300HDC OCAP box with Navigator in August. At first I didn't like Navigator. But after you lear the tricks and how to use it, it's not that bad. There are a few things, like picture freeze up or rebooting, but that can happen with any box.

I actually hope they start they start downloading Navigator to existing Passport boxes. Whit Navigator, Time Warner will be able to begin using a switched digital system and have more bandwidth and be able to add more HD channels.

Overall, the 8300HD is not that bad. I really beat on it and use it everyday to record and it's been fine. Plus it's nice not to have to own the equipment when something goes wrong. :) But, of course for the price, the Tivo S3 must be good quality. :)

SDV isn't going to be here anytime soon. Why do I say that? Because before they go there they will have to get us all on the same program guide. And that was suppose to have happened last June, at least that's what a tech told me around January.

As far as the SA 8300 goes, my experience with them was far worse then what you described however as I have said not everyone had that bad of an experience. And I had the same problems despite 3 exchanges.

Still "frozen picture" and "rebooting" I don't consider that acceptable but when you look at the price of the SA 8300, you get what you pay for.:)

Another thing too. TW is going to have to make a decision to either use passport or SARA. The indications I was getting from people on the West side who were having problems with On Demand is that they were moving towards SARA.

Can you describe Navigator a bit more to me? Is this another type of firmware (software)? Does it have cable card (s)?

Cathode Kid

11-09-07, 05:55 PM

So just to clarify, are you seeing this in our area?

**Edit** What I saw was a non-DVR STB from Samsung. My bad. :p

hookbill

11-09-07, 07:28 PM

**Edit** What I saw was a non-DVR STB from Samsung. My bad. :p

Too late. In the mail I got the "I saw it with my own two eyes" original.:D

Brian5150

11-09-07, 10:45 PM

Any1 getting the cavs/ kings game in hd?
All I'm getting is a blue screen with a hd sports logo.
This is on armstrong in Medina.
Thx

nickdawg

11-09-07, 10:54 PM

Any1 getting the cavs/ kings game in hd?
All I'm getting is a blue screen with a hd sports logo.
This is on armstrong in Medina.
Thx

Same on channel 531 here in Akron. The channel guide say NBA Basketball but there is just a blue screen with "HD Sports" on it. The game is on in SD digital on channel 31. Is it just me, or is the picture really bad? It looks like over compressed digital, similar to WBNS-SD. Very blurry on fast-paced shots, which basically is a basketball game.

The game is in HD on ESPNHD channel 559.

mnowlin

11-10-07, 01:08 AM

Can you describe Navigator a bit more to me? Is this another type of firmware (software)? Does it have cable card (s)?

The way I understand it, Navigator is what TWC is slowly moving to as a company-wide platform, phasing out SARA and Passport. Rumor has it that TWC didn't want to pay what Pioneer was asking for the new version of Passport that supports OCAP and SDV, so they decided to hire a bunch of programmers and roll their own software. It appears that Navigator itself is Java-based, but I'm not sure what the underlying OS is. There's a splash screen during bootup with a "Mystro" logo - I did some searching and came up with:

http://www.kleinand.com/mystro.html
http://www.avrev.com/news/0303/11.aol.shtml

My refurbished 8300HDC (CableCard) I got a few months ago runs Navigator - I'm guessing as boxes pass through TWC's offices, they're being "upgraded" (if you can call it that) to Navigator before going back out in the field.

Visually, the program guide is similar to how Passport and SARA looks. The DVR menu looks very different than Passport, and it's a bit confusing at times. I get the feeling they didn't put a lot of thought into menu design - options you would expect to be at the top of the list (like "Play") often aren't - you have to scroll down to them.

One word I can use to describe Navigator is "slow". Push a button on the remote, and it sometimes takes 2-3 seconds for the box to respond. Often, I'll hit a button and think it didn't take, so I hit it again - the box catches up, and I'm eight listings away from where I want to be. When FF/Rewinding through a show, it still has the same three advance speeds, but jumping through a commercial break at 3x FF takes significantly longer than 2x FF on Passport. (REALLY annoying when you combine that with the delayed remote response. FF'ing through a break, and you see the show come back on - hit Play, and it happily keeps FF'ing several minutes worth of program before it resumes playback, and then you have to rewind those minutes.) And by TWC's admission, it can take up to 40 minutes to boot upon power-up. In reality, mine usually takes 10-15 minutes.

The only new feature I think is mildly useful is "Resolve Conflict" in the DVR section - if you have three shows scheduled for the same time slot, it gives you an option that will make it locate and record one of those shows in a different time slot. Unfortunately, it's not automatic - you have to hit Select on the program marked as conflicting and tell it to resolve. If you forget, too bad - it will happily skip the record job.

Reliability: absolutely horrible. Compared to the Navigator 8300HDC, my older Passport 8300 is rock-solid. Reboots for no reason, gets very easily confused (it thought when I hit channel 521 for WKYC-HD the other day, I really wanted to look at the WUAB-DT2 "The Tube is no longer broadcasting" message - took a reboot to fix it), and my favorite one - a message in the recording log that says "This channel is not currently available." (Causes a lot of missed recordings, even when I'm watching the same channel live at the time.)

You asked for a description, you got a review. Deal with it. :)

toby10

11-10-07, 07:54 AM

I never heard of it. And I doubt she knew what she was talking about. See above post about CSR experience.

Oh and if you experience some minor problems with the SA 8300, like not recording what you want or partial only recordings, major macro blocking and frequent pixelation, sound drop offs that start to drive you nuts, then look into the HD TiVo. Not as expensive as the S3 but a nice alternative.

Then you can bring the SA 8300 back to TW. I suggest tie it with a rope to the bumper of your car (see my signature).

I have been reading with interest the forum members posts regarding Tivo. As I have never used a Tivo unit, would you indulge me in answering some Tivo questions? I'm with WOW cable in Cleveland and I'd be replacing an SA dvr and a Samsung DTB-H260f ota HD tuner.

1. What is the difference between the two Tivo HD boxes? Just THX & learning remote? Any link to a side by side Tivo box comparison? (Can't find comparison on Tivo site)
2. Is Tivo portable? i.e. If I go satellite down the road my Tivo box will work on any cable/sat system? If yes, is lifetime subscription portable? Obviously I'd have to buy/rent the appropriate cable cards from each provider.
3. I need two cable cards in the Tivo to record one show while watching another?
4. With added SATA drive, does Tivo automatically add recordings to the second drive if drive one is full? Or do I have to manually move recordings to the second drive?
5. (subjective): Sounds from posts in here that the picture quality from Tivo is better overall than most anything coming from the cable co's SA boxes. Is this true for all sources (SD, digital, HD, HD ota)?
6. (subjective): With more stb dvr's hitting the market should I wait a bit or make the 1k jump to Tivo (box + lifetime subscription)?

Any thoughts, suggestions, comments are greatly appreciated. :)

Thanks

Michael P 2341

11-10-07, 09:07 AM

Yo' You's,

The Channel 61 tower has an extinguished top light. I can't find any "Contact Us"
link on thier web page. Phone number goes unanswered. P*sses me off. Fax works,
this place makes Raycom look like "Diamond Jim".
I've lived "on the hill" for a little over 2 years now. I never thought much about the tower lights other than to note how they disappear in the fog. On a clear night the tower lights reflect across the street off my neighbor's windows. A little red flashing light appears from an upstairs window ;)

I live about a mile south of the Ridgewood towers so I can see them all out my patio window. From my POV WOIO & WBNX are less than an inch apart, so I can also see WQHS to the left. I'll have to check out WQHS's tower to see how long it takes to get it fixed.

I wonder if the Parma Police Dept. has contact numbers for all the towers? If not they should. It would be quite a disaster if a plane ever hit one of the towers. It's my understanding that there is supposed to be undeveloped land around each tower in a radius equal the height so that if one were to fall the damage would be limited. If my assumption were true, WJW's tower must have been grandfathered from the rule. I'm only .8 of a mile from WJW, just far enough to be safe (but then again maybe not, for the high tension power transmission lines run between WJW and here - the top of WJW's tower might just reach the power lines if it fell in that direction).

terryfoster

11-10-07, 04:15 PM

1. What is the difference between the two Tivo HD boxes? Just THX & learning remote? Any link to a side by side Tivo box comparison? (Can't find comparison on Tivo site)
Those differences along with the HDD size are the main differences I have seen.
2. Is Tivo portable? i.e. If I go satellite down the road my Tivo box will work on any cable/sat system? If yes, is lifetime subscription portable? Obviously I'd have to buy/rent the appropriate cable cards from each provider.
TiVo S3 and HD are incompatible with satellite. They won't even work to record SD since they don't have an IR blaster port. The lifetime subscription is for the lifetime of the box regardless of the source. If you get lifetime on a S3 or HD you'll be able to record OTA ATSC broadcasts until the box dies or if you somehow manage to get the subscription transfered.
3. I need two cable cards in the Tivo to record one show while watching another?
You need two cableCARDs if you need two digital encrypted streams decoded at one time. So, if you want to watch a digital cable channel while recording one, then yes you need to cableCARDs.
4. With added SATA drive, does Tivo automatically add recordings to the second drive if drive one is full? Or do I have to manually move recordings to the second drive?
It will automagically use both drives as necessary.
6. (subjective): With more stb dvr's hitting the market should I wait a bit or make the 1k jump to Tivo (box + lifetime subcription)?
Personally I don't see any strong competition to TiVo since they're having enough troubles competing against the cable provider DVRs.

hookbill

11-10-07, 04:28 PM

Just adding on to terryforster's comments the TiVo HD can only use a couple of eSATA drives that are blessed by TiVo limited to 500 gb where as the S3 can use any eSATAII drive including 1tb.

As far as waiting for someone else goes TiVo really is the only game in town. I disagree with his comments about "competing with cable dvr's", truly cable dvr's arn't even in the same ball park as TiVo's. That includes the new TiVo software Comcast box. Also left out was the fact that the S3 is not more appealing to the eye then HD TiVo and has a front OLED which shows what is currently being recorded.

hookbill

11-10-07, 05:55 PM

More on Navigator. I think it's also part of Time Warner standardizing their legacy systems and newly acquired companies. And it looks like Navigator is being used to advertise their services more. There is one feature called the Access Menu. In the access menu there are shortcuts to Movies on Demand, premium on demand and more options to sort shows by category. And Navigator has an on screen keyboard to enter the names of shows in the title search. On the Passport boxes, there's no keyboard, just a long list of shows. The difference on Navigator is now all PPV and on demand shows are included in the list.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/conversion_guide.pdf (http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/conversion_guide.pdf)

Two good things I noticed. The first being that the search is much easier then the guide I have seen in the past, which is the same guide I still see on my STB. The other is they are now allowing first run selection. Very nice, and a long time overdue.

It still doesn't come close to TiVo with features like Wishlist and Swivel-Search. I'll bet that caller id they are going to set up is only if your hooked up to their voip system. And their guide still only goes 7 days out.

And I'm just talking basic features.....TiVo has many other features beyond just programing.

Oh one other thing. It has to actually do what it says it will do. :) That was my biggest complaint with TW's DVR.

Inundated

11-11-07, 02:11 AM

OK, has anyone else had lockup problems with ESPNHD on TWC/Cleveland?

I don't know if it's a TWC channel problem or with the infamous SA8000HD DVR, or both. If I've been at the set when it happens, I'm usually able to tune back in within a few minutes or less, but yesterday, it'd been sitting there since the last time I turned off the set the night before - with 772 still tuned in.

paule123

11-11-07, 03:48 AM

It will be interesting to see how this affects Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights, both of whom would not allow the U-verse boxes to be installed in their cities. Does the new state law preempt this?

The cities didn't prevent installation of the boxes, the cities were protesting the lack of a lucrative franchise agreement (tax). The VRAD boxes have been installed in Shaker Heights for quite some time now. IIRC, they've been on Shaker treelawns for at least 1 to 2 years now.

mnowlin

11-11-07, 05:37 AM

The other is they are now allowing first run selection. Very nice, and a long time overdue.

FYI: my Passport 8300 does support first-run selection. Navigator's first-run feature is a bit buggy. It does identify and record first runs correctly, but often will record a second showing of the same program later, even if the original recording is still saved.

It's a little weird. Last Friday, it recorded Real Time with Bill Maher on HBO as a first-run. (Ignore the fact that it was actually a rerun due to the writers' strike.) I watched the recording and left it on the DVR. The next afternoon, I looked at the Scheduled Recordings list - Real Time wasn't listed, but it recorded it that night on HBO2 anyway. Go figure...

mnowlin

11-11-07, 06:02 AM

I'll bet that caller id they are going to set up is only if your hooked up to their voip system.

That's true - you must be a subscriber of TWC's Digital Phone service for the Caller ID feature to work.

I find it interesting that digging through the diagnostic screens on my Navigator box, there's a spot that mentions "Caller ID Port", with a value of 5060. Hmm - 5060 is the standard port number for SIP VoIP signalling....

hookbill

11-11-07, 08:33 AM

It's a little weird. Last Friday, it recorded Real Time with Bill Maher on HBO as a first-run. (Ignore the fact that it was actually a rerun due to the writers' strike.) I watched the recording and left it on the DVR. The next afternoon, I looked at the Scheduled Recordings list - Real Time wasn't listed, but it recorded it that night on HBO2 anyway. Go figure...

This can be one of two things. Either the DVR is still a piece of crap even with the new software (my first thought) or it isn't the DVR's fault and it's getting bad data.

For example, on my TiVo S3 we've had a "problem child" with USA channel. All visual data indicates whether a program is first run or not yet some get on the "to do list" anyway. Shows like "The 4400 and Psyche" have appeared from time to time and quite randomly sometimes at strange hours. And over the last two weeks the guide data has failed to recognize that L&O, CI are new shows.

We had this same problem with USA in the Summer as well and have notified TiVo. Hopefully they will contact USA to fix it. This week everything is back to normal.

hookbill

11-11-07, 08:41 AM

Here's a challange for you guys with Navigator software. Let's say you have a "record all, first run only" on "Flash Gordon" (using this as an example from my S3) which airs Fridays at 9:00 pm. Now if you have two other higher priority programs scheduled to be recorded, will your DVR still see that you haven't recorded that program and find a time when the same episode is on later? TiVo does.

Also if you manually choose to record an SP (season pass or first run only) at a different time will your DVR automatically cancel the previously requested program? From my experinece with SARA it wouldn't and it was a PIA because it would kick you out of the menu and pull you back to live TV.

Just curious. I'm really glad they are making strides to getting you guys something better, and it may be a bit buggy but hopefully that improves.

elmalloc

11-11-07, 08:49 AM

so do I get time warner cable/internet, or do satellite TV?

hookbill

11-11-07, 08:59 AM

so do I get time warner cable/internet, or do satellite TV?

No offense elmalloc but how in the world are we suppose to offer an opinion based on your question? You haven't specified your needs (HD, vOIP, internet speed, if you want a DVR, is Big Ten Network and NFL network important to you? Do you have experience with other DVR's, like TiVo?)

Be a little more specific and we'll try to offer some help. My overall feeling that at this time of the game in this area if you have a clean line of site probably D* is your best shot. However without knowing what you want I can't make a real recommendation.

paule123

11-11-07, 10:16 AM

That's true - you must be a subscriber of TWC's Digital Phone service for the Caller ID feature to work.

Wide Open West charges $2.99 a month for the Caller ID service on the SA8300HD, in addition to the WOW VOIP package charges. Ridiculous.

hookbill

11-11-07, 11:42 AM

Wide Open West charges $2.99 a month for the Caller ID service on the SA8300HD, in addition to the WOW VOIP package charges. Ridiculous.

Heh, you can bet TW will charge too.:)

jeffleonard

11-11-07, 05:05 PM

Holy cow!

The HD PQ on WOIO was a big improvement during the Browns game today.

paule123

11-11-07, 05:18 PM

Holy cow!

The HD PQ on WOIO was a big improvement during the Browns game today.

It looked good OTA, but unfortunately it looks like WOW is rate shaping WOIO now and chopping off 1 - 3 Mpbs of bandwidth (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12186414#post12186414) on a station that already has 2Mbps lopped off the top for WeatherNow. WOW has always looked identical to OTA, but that would not appear to be the case any more. :(

I've packed up the SA8300HD and putting in a call to WOW to pick up the box and discontinue video service. D* has won my business.

hookbill

11-11-07, 06:07 PM

It looked good OTA, but unfortunately it looks like WOW is rate shaping WOIO now and chopping off 1 - 3 Mpbs of bandwidth (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12186414#post12186414) on a station that already has 2Mbps lopped off the top for WeatherNow. WOW has always looked identical to OTA, but that would not appear to be the case any more. :(

I've packed up the SA8300HD and putting in a call to WOW to pick up the box and discontinue video service. D* has won my business.

FWIW, I watched on WOIO via TW. I think I saw maybe 1 instance of pixelation but all in all I thought pq was excellent.

I think D* is going to get a whole lot more business in the near future, specially around here. TW is not offering good competition for HD. You'll also get a better DVR from D* then the SA 8300. I think you may have to pay for it though.

sthosler

11-11-07, 06:07 PM

paule123

11-11-07, 06:23 PM

I think D* is going to get a whole lot more business in the near future, specially around here. TW is not offering good competition for HD. You'll also get a better DVR from D* then the SA 8300. I think you may have to pay for it though.

I've had the HR20 set up for a few months now running side by side and it's so much better than the SA8300HD. D* is also releasing regular proactive software updates enabling new features all the time. (it takes like a year or two for the cable company to update SARA) For the heck of it today I connected the HR20 to internet and home LAN and I'm sharing photos and music with my PC, and downloading Video On Demand to the HR20. They will also be adding the remote scheduling DVR thru the website as well. I have an external SATA drive connected to it with no trouble. HR20 has an RF remote so I can channel change from the kitchen on my countertop TV slaved to the component output of the HR20 in the living room. The support available from forums like DBSTalk is fantastic - compare that with non existent support for the relatively featureless SA8300HD mysterious "black box". Oh and the HR20 doesn't have a hard drive that is constantly chirping away, tick tick ticking, recalibrating, doing god knows what like the SA8300HD.

The downside with D* is of course you need to buy the equipment and have a D* receiver on every TV in the house (although if you play CSR roulette one can make deals). And no dual tuner PIP.

hookbill

11-11-07, 07:41 PM

The downside with D* is of course you need to buy the equipment and have a D* receiver on every TV in the house (although if you play CSR roulette one can make deals). And no dual tuner PIP.

Not to be too technical but you don't "buy" it, you lease it. And that in itself is not a bad thing because is something is wrong, you can exchange it.

Inundated

11-11-07, 07:45 PM

I am in North Ridgeville and have Dish. The antenna hooked to the back of the HD receiver.

This has been addressed very, very often here...a quick search on "WKYC" will come up with a few answers.

But since we're here: the problem, basically, is that WKYC-DT is a "low VHF" (real) channel. It's on DT 2, which is even lower than its analog 3.

The channels under 6 are susceptible to electrical interference, which you can see on the analog 3 by the "sparklies" you see on the screen.

Those "sparklies" disrupt the digital channel, only in that case, you just won't get a lock on a signal.

Get a better antenna (outdoor, preferably) or move closer to Parma. Those are your only current solutions. Unless you're within about 5 miles of Parma, you aren't getting WKYC-DT on any indoor antenna that I know of. NR is too far.

Other than that, you'll have to wait until Feb. 2009, when WKYC-DT will displace analog WDLI/Canton on (real) channel 17, and won't have any of these problems. (For its part, WDLI will stay on UHF 39 for its digital side. Both channels' PSIP information will keep the current analog number, as far as I know.)

paule123

11-11-07, 07:55 PM

I just setup a Terk TV5 indoor antenna. Everything is coming in great except WKYC. I have scanned this thread and can't seem to find the answer.

I am in North Ridgeville and have Dish. The antenna hooked to the back of the HD receiver.

Thanks in advance.

In addition to what Inundated said, I thought I read earlier in this thread that people with certain Dish receivers were having trouble with low VHF like WKYC due to a hardware defect in the receiver (or maybe it was a software update?) Someone else with Dish can chime in on this :D

jtscherne

11-11-07, 07:57 PM

That's DirecTV. When I had Dish I had no problems getting Channel 3 OTA.

In addition to what Inundated said, I thought I read earlier in this thread that people with certain Dish receivers were having trouble with low VHF like WKYC due to a hardware defect in the receiver (or maybe it was a software update?) Someone else with Dish can chime in on this :D

sthosler

11-11-07, 08:21 PM

This has been addressed very, very often here...a quick search on "WKYC" will come up with a few answers.

But since we're here: the problem, basically, is that WKYC-DT is a "low VHF" (real) channel. It's on DT 2, which is even lower than its analog 3.

The channels under 6 are susceptible to electrical interference, which you can see on the analog 3 by the "sparklies" you see on the screen.

Those "sparklies" disrupt the digital channel, only in that case, you just won't get a lock on a signal.

Get a better antenna (outdoor, preferably) or move closer to Parma. Those are your only current solutions. Unless you're within about 5 miles of Parma, you aren't getting WKYC-DT on any indoor antenna that I know of. NR is too far.

Other than that, you'll have to wait until Feb. 2009, when WKYC-DT will displace analog WDLI/Canton on (real) channel 17, and won't have any of these problems. (For its part, WDLI will stay on UHF 39 for its digital side. Both channels' PSIP information will keep the current analog number, as far as I know.)

Thanks for the response. I could not figure out how to search within this thread. I was searching the main forums and coming up with this entire thread. I guess I'll have to do without. Thanks.

edjrwinnt

11-11-07, 08:29 PM

I just setup a Terk TV5 indoor antenna. Everything is coming in great except WKYC. I have scanned this thread and can't seem to find the answer.

I am in North Ridgeville and have Dish. The antenna hooked to the back of the HD receiver.

Thanks in advance.

I live in North Ridgeville too and channel 5 was the toughest one to get for me. I just re-adjusted the antenna attaced to my satellite dish and now it comes in. I never had any luck getting all the local channels with any inside antennas including the Zenith one that many on this forum used to recommend.

jeffleonard

11-12-07, 07:21 AM

I live near the Westlake/Avon/Ridgeville border, and WKYC is hit or miss with my rooftop antenna.

WEWS and FOX are usually rock solid, WOIO usually has a little lower signal strength (I don't think they broadcast at full power) and WKYC is the lowest signal.

As previously mentioned...this should improve in the next 12 months.

hookbill

11-12-07, 07:41 AM

Guys, OTA is out of my area of expertise. OK so most HD is out of my area of expertise.:o But didn't I read that there was one antennae that out there that doesn't do VHF? I can't recall if it was the Terk.

DaMavs

11-12-07, 08:50 AM

It's fairly common for many of the new "digital" antennas to be weak to non-existent on VHF, particularly low VHF where WKYC is (digital 2). Many of the new antennas are focussed on UHF since nearly every market out there, except Cleveland of course, has the digital broadcasts in the UHF spectrum. For some reason Cleveland has 2 channels still in VHF (WKYZ at 2 and WOIO at 10). Also small antennas struggle with receiving VHF channel 2 due to the length of the signal - I believe the rabbit ear instructions to receive 3-1 are to open the ears as wide as possible and flatten them out.

Check if the Terk is a UHF antenna - if so that's the likely culprit. Your options would be to switch antennas to something that works with VHF or to wait until Feb. '09 when channel 3 moves to a higher channel number (was it 12?).

Also regarding D* and Channel 3. The HR20-100 D* DVR's currently will not receive WKYZ OTA. Presumably this will be fixed via a firmware update at some point (since it was broken that way in the first place). Also note that they will receive 3-1 via the MPEG4 HD locals from D* so as long as you pay (~$6 per month), you'll get Ch. 3 just fine. FWIW the HD locals generally provide more reliable reception at my location than OTA, but depending on your location and equipment, that may differ.

kosar1985

11-12-07, 10:01 PM

Does anyone know why I can not get the Cavs in HD tonight on channel 95

nickdawg

11-13-07, 12:09 AM

Tonight's episode of Jay Leno is from November 17, 2003. The HD picture quality on this episode actually looks better than some of the newer episodes. I never knew Jay was broadcasting in HD back then. :)

mnowlin

11-13-07, 01:01 AM

After much deliberation, I took the plunge and picked up a shiny new Tivo HD tonight. Overall, I'm fairly impressed - just need to teach my fingers where the various buttons on the remote are... :)

TWC is due out on Thursday to install the CableCards. That should be fun.

HD MM

11-13-07, 08:46 AM

Good news Browns fans.......

Our week 11 game @ Baltimore will be available in HD via CBS.

See link: here. (http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl)

hookbill

11-13-07, 09:07 AM

Good news Browns fans.......

Our week 11 game @ Baltimore will be available in HD via CBS.

See link: here. (http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl)

Off topic, I know but I have to say that the Browns did look impressive against Pittsburgh. They gave them a good game, it's just their defense was a bit too much for them.

Overall Browns fans I think your future is looking up.:)

jtscherne

11-13-07, 09:23 AM

HD MM

11-13-07, 10:23 AM

Not to make it a Browns thread, but...
I wonder what might have happened had they not wasted the two timeouts.
The Browns have a very easy schedule the rest of the way, with only Buffalo at above .500.

Or had they not have been penalized on the final punt by the Steelers! Cribbs returned it to the Pittsburgh 38, but the play was nullified by a holding call, pushing the Browns back to their 33. The holding call by Darnell Dinkins was extremely questionable in my opinion and besides, he was no where near Cribbs during the return so it had no overall effect on the play. To me, the refs blew the call and ultimately may have cost us the game. However that was only one of many other reasons why we should've won that game. Oh well.....

dleising

11-13-07, 11:18 AM

Does anyone know why I can not get the Cavs in HD tonight on channel 95

By channel 95 you mean what, MOJO? The game was broadcast in HD (not by FSN, but by NBA TV. Mojo had the NBA TV simulcast but it was unfortanuately blacked out :mad:). Thus being stuck to watching FSN SD.

DaMavs

11-13-07, 01:02 PM

By Ch. 95 he likely has D* as that's the "special events" channel D* uses to broadcast HD FSN games. Since the game was on NBA TV he likely needed to look at 601 instead - presuming the NBA TV's free preview is still running on D*, which I think it is.

HD MM

11-13-07, 01:14 PM

The Cavs game was blacked out on NBA TV-HD through D*. Only way to see it was on FSN-SD. Yuk......

jtscherne

11-14-07, 06:28 AM

For HD MM:

DIRECTV launched 23 more HD Channels today:

Full Time National Channels:

* 299: Nickelodeon (NIK1HD)
* 325: Spike HD
* 327: Country Music Television (CMTHD)
* 331: MTV HD
* 335: VH1 HD

Games Only Regional Sports Networks:

* 620-1: Comcast Sports Net New England HD
* 630-1: FSN South HD
* 631-1: SportsSouth HD
* 632-1: Sun Sports HD
* 634-1: FSN Florida HD
* 637-1: FSN Ohio HD
* 638-1: FSN Cincinnati HD
* 641-1: FSN North HD
* 644-1: Altitude HD
* 645-1: FSN Rocky Mountain HD
* 649-1: FSN Arizona HD
* 651-1: FSN Northwest HD
* 654-1: FSN Bay Area HD

...plus five more HD pay-per-view channels

The Games Only channels are for RSNs that aren't 24 hour HD (like Fox Sports Ohio). This means that anyone who subscribes to a sports subscription (such as basketball, baseball, or hockey) will be able to get the HD feed of the game.

HD MM

11-14-07, 11:43 AM

HD MM

11-14-07, 11:49 AM

The Games Only channels are for RSNs that aren't 24 hour HD (like Fox Sports Ohio). This means that anyone who subscribes to a sports subscription (such as basketball, baseball, or hockey) will be able to get the HD feed of the game.

Just curious as I am at work right now and not in front of my TV to check for myself....

What is the difference between the "Games Only" Channel of FSN-OH HD (637-1) that was just added and channel 96 that shows the the FSN/STO games on? And I assume that we Clevelanders get FSN-OH HD without subscribing to the Sports Pack, correct?

hookbill

11-14-07, 12:03 PM

Just curious as I am at work right now and not in front of my TV to check for myself....

What is the difference between the "Games Only" Channel of FSN-OH HD (637-1) that was just added and channel 96 that shows the the FSN/STO games on? And I assume that we Clevelanders get FSN-OH HD without subscribing to the Sports Pack, correct?

What he is saying is that if you subscribe to things like Major League Baseball Extra Innings you will get the out of market games in HD (when available). That would apply to NHL and NBA as well.

jtscherne

11-14-07, 12:12 PM

Channel 96 is MPEG-2 on a spotbeam, meaning it is only available here in the Cleveland area, as opposed to 637-1, which is available nationwide.

Just curious as I am at work right now and not in front of my TV to check for myself....

What is the difference between the "Games Only" Channel of FSN-OH HD (637-1) that was just added and channel 96 that shows the the FSN/STO games on? And I assume that we Clevelanders get FSN-OH HD without subscribing to the Sports Pack, correct?

Tim Lones

11-14-07, 12:15 PM

Just wanted to call attention if anyone might be interested...to some of my recent blog postings..

Some history of WKST/WYTV-33 and a forgotten station, WXTV-Channel 45 in Youngstown (operated 1960-62)

Hoolihan and Big Chuck Opening from either late 1960's or early 70's..The related videos feature an early 1967 H@BC skit with Andy Griffith..from YouTube

ABC 1959-60 Promos for mostly the Warner Brothers series..related..The WEWS-TV 5 Schedule for December 24-30, 1960

Barnaby:Opening minute to his final show on WUAB-TV 43 in 1990 (YouTube)

The archives go back to March 2007..Feel free to browse about..

http://clevelandclassicmedia.blogspot.com/

Thanks..

jtscherne

11-14-07, 01:51 PM

Whoops! Here are a few more that just appeared:

DIREC*TV* has a few more HD channels for you:

*Games Only Regional Sports Networks:*

* 669-1: RSNaHD
* 648-1: FSN Midwest HD
* 646-1: FSN Utah HD
* 639-1: FSN Houston HD
* 642-1: FSN Wisconsin HD

Thank you,

The Cleveland HD List (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11732143&postcount=9752) has been updated.

gilham1

11-14-07, 07:11 PM

Sorry guys i know this is a question asked over and over but here I go.
My set up:
37" LCD
8300hdc from TW running to TV through componet.

This is the first time I have had HDTV on my set, and wo im very upset with the PQ that I seem to be getting, full of grain,blurry etc.Not every channel but most.Fox and CBS seem to be the only ones that really come in right.
I had hooked the coax up this weekend for the browns game because the TW guy couldnt get out here till Yesterday.
Anyways sorry just wanted to give a little info first.
I want to make sure that I have everything hooked up right,im pretty pist at this point that the coax look as good if not better then now with the HD box.Oh by the way I do have a QAM tunner in my Tv.Ok I have the size set up to normal, aspect set to 16x9, and res set to 1080i/720p/480p.That is settings for the HD box.I was woundering if anyone has used HDMI over componet and if it made a diffrence?
Not sure what else You need, but again sorry for the repeated question.
Thanks in advance
Jeff

Michael P 2341

11-14-07, 07:32 PM

paule123

11-14-07, 07:53 PM

gilham1

11-14-07, 09:51 PM

hookbill

11-14-07, 10:09 PM

This may come to as a bit of a shock but it could be that the SA 8300 that you have is a piece of crap. But lets say it isn't. Are you running the latest firmware? That might be a big part of the puzzle.

I really don't know anything about QAM tuners and I mystified why you would use an SA 8300 if you had a QAM tuner. I guess you're using it for recording HD.

It shouldn't make too much difference if you are using component or HDMI, but then I have to qualify that by saying it varies from set to set.

paule123

11-14-07, 10:16 PM

I really don't know anything about QAM tuners and I mystified why you would use an SA 8300 if you had a QAM tuner. I guess you're using it for recording HD.

Don't forget the QAM tuner in the TV is only going to pick up the "in the clear" channels, none of the encrypted stuff, so it makes perfect sense to use the SA8300 if you want stuff like TNTHD, ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, etc. Not to mention TV QAM tuners seem to require a perfect signal level, whereas the cable boxes are not as picky.

Could be he's watching SD upconverted stretchovision on TNTHD, or a local newscast with a lot of SD content. gilham1, tell us what channels and what programs you are watching that are blurry and grainy.

Inundated

11-14-07, 10:51 PM

Of course, not everything's in HD on the HD channels.

Prime-time comedy/drama series almost always are. Just about every major sports event is now in HD, give or take an FSN Ohio Cavs game or five, or most away Indians games on STO.

All four major local TV news operations do studio broadcasts in HD, though field video is nearly always in SD. (Exceptions: FOX 8's helicopter, and remote cameras like WKYC's at Jacobs Field, or FOX 8's on top of their own building on South Marginal Road.)

Almost all reruns during the day, syndicated talk shows, and other daytime material are in SD.

Two of the three network morning shows (NBC, ABC) are in HD - CBS is still straggling.

Inundated

11-14-07, 10:53 PM

That's DirecTV. When I had Dish I had no problems getting Channel 3 OTA.

No, I'm pretty sure the bug in question was one specific Dish Network receiver - a 921?? They sent out firmware at some point that fixed it, IIRC. (I don't have satellite, so I'm just trying to remember what I read.)

Oh, I see above that it might indeed be a DirecTV receiver. Or maybe both!

Jim Gilliland

11-15-07, 08:01 AM

Don't forget the QAM tuner in the TV is only going to pick up the "in the clear" channels, none of the encrypted stuff, so it makes perfect sense to use the SA8300 if you want stuff like TNTHD, ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, etc.
Just to keep the information accurate, let me point out that TW does broadcast TNTHD and Discovery HD in the clear. But not ESPNHD.

Rambozo

11-15-07, 08:47 AM

Just to keep the information accurate, let me point out that TW does broadcast TNTHD and Discovery HD in the clear. But not ESPNHD.

Maybe in your area, not everywhere. TWC Akron sends only the local DTV channels in the clear.

schandorsky

11-15-07, 08:52 AM

We have lost TBSHD in the Time Warner Elyria area. Does anybody know why?

hookbill

11-15-07, 08:55 AM

We have lost TBSHD in the Time Warner Elyria area. Does anybody know why?

What do you mean by "lost"? Is it a blank screen or simply no longer on the guide?

schandorsky

11-15-07, 09:20 AM

What do you mean by "lost"? Is it a blank screen or simply no longer on the guide?

Yes and Yes. Completely gone.

Rambozo

11-15-07, 09:22 AM

HD MM

11-15-07, 09:27 AM

For those interested, I've recently made available "The Cleveland HD Channel List" online through a dedicated web address published by Google Docs.

I figure bookmarking this link and checking back for updates would be easier to some then searching for my original post and downloading the latest attached excel file, which was the way I had been doing it before.

I will continue to bring attention on this thread to any changes in the list.

See link here: "The Cleveland HD Channel List" (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pI9yd6lJxEOtgyXz6BaZTeg)

hookbill

11-15-07, 09:56 AM

Yes and Yes. Completely gone.

Call TW. It's working fine over here on the east side. Matter of fact we actually have it on two channels, 600 and 778.

hookbill

11-15-07, 10:01 AM

Well, I bit the bullet when a Door-to-Door rep came a knockin' a couple weeks ago. ATT will be installing Uverse this Saturday here in Akron. My neighborhood got lit up a month or 2 ago, and they are ready to roll out.

The offer was worthy, and worse case I lower my DSL costs by $5/month if I choose to drop the TV portion. Had DSL with ATT already without much of a glitch at all, so I am not concerned there.

Hope it hooks the wife so I can keep it :p

U-Verse is a good deal if you don't use a DVR. However if you want to use a DVR it's not so great. You can only receive one HD channel at a time.

It will never get to my area but since I record usually as many as 6 HD shows in 3 hours primetime it would not be good for me.

Also what about your phone bill? They still have you stuck to a land line phone. Do you get free long distance or even free toll charges? While I don't know anything about TW's phone I use Vonage and it was much cheaper then the phone company.

Rambozo

11-15-07, 10:43 AM

The "record 1 HD stream" is a valid issue. It's also compounded with you can only record the same HD stream that you are watching, unless you are watching something in SD. Basically 1 HD stream into the house, period.

We only have one HDTV, and I am planning on using a Slingbox with another tuner to present it to the computer downstairs, or the laptop anywhere :)

The HD stream limit is supposed to be corrected early next year, as well as a few other niggling issues.

ajstan99

11-15-07, 01:13 PM

Up until the last month or so, the clear-QAM stations on my TV always resoved to the corresponding three-digit channel number as noted in WOW's published channel lineup. Then, FOX, NBC, and MyNetwork all were moved and/or showed the channel number in the xxx-xxx format. Hopefully, that means that WOW is rearranging their digital channels to add more HD.

Yesterday I did a rescan and found the following new channels. Who knows how long they'll be available, but if anyone is interested, here are the numbers to punch in for direct access. In all cases, the last three numbers in the xxx-xxx format are consistent with the channel numbers published in the WOW Channel Lineup.

New Available HD Clear-QAM Channels
100-212, HDNet
100-213, HDNet*Movies
101-215, NFL HD
102-209, TNT HD
102-216, HGTV HD
103-220, Fox Sports Ohio*HD

New Available SD Clear-QAM Channels
100-309, Sprout
101-316, Fox Reality
101-362, IMF - Int. Music Feed
102-317, ABC News Now
103-338, NFL Network

Regularly Available Clear-QAM Channels
101-202, FOX HD
102-110, Weather Now
103-140, The Tube
103-204, MyNetworkTV HD
130, Weather Plus
200, ABC HD
201, CBS HD
203, NBC HD

Chris Isble

11-15-07, 01:30 PM

It shows 720p/1080i,boy i really screwed the pooch on the my last post.I am tuned to the HD channels, just not all are as great as i was thinking they where going to be.I still am getting alot of grain and some blurring on some of the channels.I guess it is just the broadcast.
I just wanted to make sure i had everything setup right.i went back through my manual for my TV and also looked at the crappy handout they give you with the box.i may try an HDMI cable and see if i get any better of a picture.It wouldn't be such a big deal but others that have the same TV as me report having great PQ.From my HD DVD player the PQ is outstanding.Just disappointed i guess.thanks guys for the help.Any more suggestions let me know.

A few things you might try, but really shouldn't make a difference:

If you have more than one Component input on the TV, try switching the cables to a different input. This will eliminate the TV as a problem.

A component cable has three wires. Change the connection to use a different wire and see if the problems are different. For example, connect the red pin on the cable box to the red pin on the TV, but use the green wire. This will eliminate the component cable as a problem.

If your cable is split to multiple rooms or multiple devices, try connecting it directly to the cable box. A bad coax or coax connector anywhere can have an impact on your picture. I couldn't receive Discovery HD on my QAM tuner until I replaced a bad coax that ran from my splitter to my VCR.

schandorsky

11-15-07, 01:39 PM

Call TW. It's working fine over here on the east side. Matter of fact we actually have it on two channels, 600 and 778.

Thanks for the info. TBSHD went from channel 250 to channel 600. All my other HD channels are in the 200's. For example ESPNHD 252, TNTHD 249 and HBOHD 228.

kinglerch

11-15-07, 03:44 PM

In addition to what Inundated said, I thought I read earlier in this thread that people with certain Dish receivers were having trouble with low VHF like WKYC due to a hardware defect in the receiver (or maybe it was a software update?) Someone else with Dish can chime in on this :D

In my (somewhat limited) experience, nothing pulls in the signals better than the built-in TV tuner. Not all tuners are created equal. In general, I haven't had trouble with WKYC through dish's vip622. But harder to get channels from Akron or Youngstown come in perfect through the few TV tuners I've tried, but give the vip622 trouble. FWIW.

Ben Music

11-15-07, 03:46 PM

hookbill

11-15-07, 03:50 PM

This may the first step in the TWC channel realignment for the ex Comcast people in the Elyria/Lorain Cty. area. I believe that the main TWC system (Akron) has all the HD channels in the 500 to 600 area. This may make some room for more HD in the future, along with the change to a switched digital system.

Ben Music

I don't know. When they first did this I called TW to make sure what the "permanent" station was going to be. They told me that 778 was the permanent home.

I had the feeling that TBSHD would be "free" for a while then added to their higher HD tier. However I could be wrong, as I myself has said many times "Never believe anything a CSR tells you.":D

jtscherne

11-15-07, 03:50 PM

There is a model-specific problem with one Directv receiver that has nothing to do with signal strength. The Model HR20-100 (not the earlier HR20-700) has a software glitch that won't allow it to tune low frequency OTA. This is not just in Cleveland but has been reported by folks in other areas that have a low frequency station (usually 2 or 3). It was originally a problem in the HR20-700, but was later corrected. It has NOT yet been corrected in the -100.

Luckily, in Cleveland, Directv offers WKYC-DT as part of its package and the quality is close to OTA.

In my (somewhat limited) experience, nothing pulls in the signals better than the built-in TV tuner. Not all tuners are created equal. In general, I haven't had trouble with WKYC through dish's vip622. But harder to get channels from Akron or Youngstown come in perfect through the few TV tuners I've tried, but give the vip622 trouble. FWIW.

gilham1

11-15-07, 04:35 PM

A few things you might try, but really shouldn't make a difference:

If you have more than one Component input on the TV, try switching the cables to a different input. This will eliminate the TV as a problem.

A component cable has three wires. Change the connection to use a different wire and see if the problems are different. For example, connect the red pin on the cable box to the red pin on the TV, but use the green wire. This will eliminate the component cable as a problem.

If your cable is split to multiple rooms or multiple devices, try connecting it directly to the cable box. A bad coax or coax connector anywhere can have an impact on your picture. I couldn't receive Discovery HD on my QAM tuner until I replaced a bad coax that ran from my splitter to my VCR.

Thanks for the reply.I changed the componet cable to see if that was the issue, well in doing so I noticed the TW guy never replaced the coax ends like i had asked.I had put some cheap $2 ends on the cable just to hook it up to watch the game sunday,I think I will call them and have them send someone back out and put better ends on the cable wire and see if that helps.

mnowlin

11-16-07, 12:56 AM

The TWC tech showed up today to install the CableCards in my Tivo. After greetings were exchanged, the first thing he asked was "They told you it takes up to 24 hours for the cards to be working completely, right?" Umm, no... He went on to tell me about the last Tivo CC install he did - couldn't get the cards to work, had to order replacements, extra trips, etc. Bad omen...

Popped the cards in (used two single-channel cards) and called TWC with the registration numbers - five minutes later I had Disc-HD, HBO, etc. He sure seemed surprised it went so smoothly.... So was I.

Time to watch everything remaining on the 8300 and, as suggested by a certain party, drag the damn thing back to TWC on a very long chain.

*** Update ***

Just realized that TWC added the HDTV Tier to my lineup without asking if I wanted it. Did the math, and if I keep it, my monthly bill still goes down a little bit, but I find it a little arrogant of them to assume I want to spend $7/mo for four extra channels... I'll have to sleep on this and call tomorrow - not sure how I'm gonna handle this.

New slogan for TWC: "We're not as simple as we seem." That can be interpreted in several ways... :)

terryfoster

11-16-07, 06:33 AM

Thanks for the reply.I changed the componet cable to see if that was the issue, well in doing so I noticed the TW guy never replaced the coax ends like i had asked.I had put some cheap $2 ends on the cable just to hook it up to watch the game sunday,I think I will call them and have them send someone back out and put better ends on the cable wire and see if that helps.

New ends on your coax shouldn't improve the picture on your digital channels.

hookbill

11-16-07, 07:20 AM

Time to watch everything remaining on the 8300 and, as suggested by a certain party, drag the damn thing back to TWC on a very long chain.

That would have been me. Credit due where credit deserved. :)

I'm glad he got your install right, but it doesn't take 24 hours. All he needed to do was follow the instruction sheet and everything would have worked fine. The problem is that these guys don't want to follow instructions, think they know it all and generally have bad attitudes for some reason.

Just realized that TWC added the HDTV Tier to my lineup without asking if I wanted it. Did the math, and if I keep it, my monthly bill still goes down a little bit, but I find it a little arrogant of them to assume I want to spend $7/mo for four extra channels... I'll have to sleep on this and call tomorrow - not sure how I'm gonna handle this.

New slogan for TWC: "We're not as simple as we seem." That can be interpreted in several ways... :)

Just a suggestion. Don't do anything until you see your bill. Then you can call them back and say, "Hey, I didn't order this!" if it's on the bill. If it isn't on the bill.........;)

GregF2

11-16-07, 07:46 AM

hookbill

11-16-07, 07:51 AM

Amazing to me how TW could just move a HD channel (TBS) to a location I would not even of looking at. Think of people who don't even read the forum and think the station is just gone. 600 has nothing to do with the other HD stations we get in the old Comcast market. I am just about done with TW and their poor customer service and might switch to DirectTV. Direct is definitely not shy in promoting their new HD channels.

Not that D* customer service will be better but they sure as hell have a heck of a lot more to offer then TW does.

If I didn't have a line of sight problem I'd have left old Adelphia over a year ago.

BTW the only reason I discovered it on 600 was it was at the end of MLB Extra Innings when it was added and I was cruising around in that area. I was surprised to see it in two spots.

Edited to add: I don't know what they are up to but why use all that bandwith for the same HD channel! Pick one and then put another channel on there.

schandorsky

11-16-07, 09:19 AM

Rambozo

11-16-07, 09:32 AM

Did anyone else have major PQ and sound breakup on CBS/19 HD last night? On TWC in Akron, we were forced to switch to the SD channel to watch CSI.

breeze45

11-16-07, 02:52 PM

Good for you. I asked about cable cards for my Tivo at the local TWC office and was told "We won't put them in a TIVO"

hookbill

11-16-07, 03:14 PM

Good for you. I asked about cable cards for my Tivo at the local TWC office and was told "We won't put them in a TIVO"

I have no idea who your responding too but I hope you didn't accept that response. The TW reps I have talked to over the phone now seem quite familiar with cable cards and TiVo.

I got the same response when I got the S3 right after it came out last year. I then called another CSR and simply said it was for two HD tv's.:)

texasbrit

11-16-07, 03:25 PM

There is a model-specific problem with one Directv receiver that has nothing to do with signal strength. The Model HR20-100 (not the earlier HR20-700) has a software glitch that won't allow it to tune low frequency OTA. This is not just in Cleveland but has been reported by folks in other areas that have a low frequency station (usually 2 or 3). It was originally a problem in the HR20-700, but was later corrected. It has NOT yet been corrected in the -100.

Luckily, in Cleveland, Directv offers WKYC-DT as part of its package and the quality is close to OTA.

I'm collecting information on this issue from various locations that have a digital station on channel 2 VHF. A number of posters have reported that they can't receive any signal on their DirecTV HR20-100 (not the -700, that's OK) on OTA stations transmitting their digital signal on channel 2 (channel 3 seems to be OK)If you have an HR20-100 with OTA post back and tell me do you receive WKYC OK?

gilham1

11-16-07, 09:31 PM

New ends on your coax shouldn't improve the picture on your digital channels.

Thanks for the reply.After some thinking last night ,I think the problem is just some of the stations.Last night i kept going back and fourth through diffrent HD channels and it seems that it really made a diffrence on what show I was watching.I watched CSI last night on CBS and it was what I thought HD channels should look like all along.
Thanks again for everyone helping out.
I have another question,With the Tivo do you have to pay any other fee other then your normal cable fee?

Inundated

11-16-07, 09:54 PM

Yes, TBS-HD on 600 is standard across NE Ohio's systems, from the Akron/Canton system to the former Adelphia and Comcast systems.

I get the idea they did that at first so they could easily promote it (i.e. for the Indians' playoff run), but it stays on both 600 and (insert "permanent channel" number here, 778 for the former Adelphians).

But I too am guessing that they'll standardize the lineups at some point across the region.

Inundated

11-16-07, 09:56 PM

That would have been me. Credit due where credit deserved. :)

Yep, my old thread buddy...when it involves talking about physical damage to crummy cable equipment, your name comes up first!

:D

hookbill

11-16-07, 10:26 PM

I have another question,With the Tivo do you have to pay any other fee other then your normal cable fee?

Yes you do. They have a few packages and I think right now you can get a lifetime subscription with a purchase of a new TiVo HD. I feel it's well worth it.

http://www3.tivo.com/tivo-tco/index.do

mnowlin

11-17-07, 12:13 AM

Good for you. I asked about cable cards for my Tivo at the local TWC office and was told "We won't put them in a TIVO"

Definitely try again. On the form the TWC reps fill out when you request CableCards, there is a yes/no clicker that asks if this is for a specific Tivo model number. (I leaned over the counter far enough so I could see the screen while the rep was filling it out...) The fact they ask that question should be enough proof to the CSR that TWC does allow Tivos, but you might need to explain it to them. You could also bring up the fact that they're required by Federal law to supply CableCards for any device on CableLab's approved device list, which includes the Tivo product line.

mnowlin

11-17-07, 03:57 AM

Yes you do. They have a few packages and I think right now you can get a lifetime subscription with a purchase of a new TiVo HD. I feel it's well worth it.

The way I understand it, the lifetime subscription offer is only available to current subscribers, not new customers. However, once you're considered a current customer in good standing, the lifetime offer shows up on their "Upgrade your Tivo subscription" screen.

Here's how I see it - sign up for a year ($129), get your account active, and go back in a few weeks and add the lifetime subscription for $399. With a little luck, you might be able to talk the Tivo folks into pro-rating your $129 yearly when you sign up for lifetime.

hookbill

11-17-07, 10:25 AM

The way I understand it, the lifetime subscription offer is only available to current subscribers, not new customers. However, once you're considered a current customer in good standing, the lifetime offer shows up on their "Upgrade your Tivo subscription" screen.

Here's how I see it - sign up for a year ($129), get your account active, and go back in a few weeks and add the lifetime subscription for $399. With a little luck, you might be able to talk the Tivo folks into pro-rating your $129 yearly when you sign up for lifetime.

I guarantee they will not pro rate it. The best way to do it would be do a monthly subscription and then upgrade.

rlb

11-17-07, 04:10 PM

I'm collecting information on this issue from various locations that have a digital station on channel 2 VHF. A number of posters have reported that they can't receive any signal on their DirecTV HR20-100 (not the -700, that's OK) on OTA stations transmitting their digital signal on channel 2 (channel 3 seems to be OK)If you have an HR20-100 with OTA post back and tell me do you receive WKYC OK?

No. I've twice complained to D* technical people who claim they then were submitting a trouble report advising that it needed to be fixed in a firmware update. It was "supposedly" fixed in May and then messed up by a subsequent update.

rlb

11-17-07, 04:13 PM

Not that D* customer service will be better but they sure as hell have a heck of a lot more to offer then TW does.

If I didn't have a line of sight problem I'd have left old Adelphia over a year ago.

BTW the only reason I discovered it on 600 was it was at the end of MLB Extra Innings when it was added and I was cruising around in that area. I was surprised to see it in two spots.

Edited to add: I don't know what they are up to but why use all that bandwith for the same HD channel! Pick one and then put another channel on there.

The other advantage of D* is that it is one national system and anything they change is immediated detailed on Dbstalk (if not on the D* site).

nickdawg

11-17-07, 05:06 PM

The other advantage of D* is that it is one national system and anything they change is immediated detailed on Dbstalk (if not on the D* site).

Plus with the national system, the playing field is leveled. Everyone has the same channels. Unlike TW, where some markets have lots of HD like HGTV, Food, A&E, History. And some markets like NE Ohio have nothing.

*But of course with a cable system, it all depends on what equipment and technology the head end has.

jtscherne

11-17-07, 05:28 PM

WTBS-HD was rushed on for the baseball playoffs and shows very little real HD at this point.

In fact, many of the HD channels added to Directv recently are showing little if any HD. For example, D* added MTV, VH1, and CMT in HD versions on Wednesday, and as far as I know, none of them have shown 1 minute of HD yet and aren't even broadcasting in 5.1. That's pretty much the same with SpikeHD, FXHD, etc.

Is this a bad thing? Not really, since I'd rather have the channels already once the HD starts to show up. In addition, many of the other added channels are offering LOTS of HD, plus D* added a new HD only movie channel (MGMHD) to their BASIC lineup.

Someone over at DBStalk.com asked the other day if there's anything left to add. The current answer is probably not. Biography is starting up in the next few weeks and BBC America has advertised that they'll be adding HD in 2008. The premium channels will also be increasing their HD offerings too, but I'm a little bothered that they aren't consistent about showing movies OAR (Orginal Aspect Ratio).

Sorry for the long-winded response. It's unlikely that cable will be able to compete with the HD offerings of satellite when the satellite companies can increase their bandwidth by launching another bird.

It looks like TBS-HD on channel 600 is standard across NE Ohio. Even on the Akron system, we have TBS-HD in two places; channel 546 and channel 600.

Maybe there are plans to standardize all the line ups by having HD in the
600s? I'm not really sure why they would start with TBS. It is odd that they have TBS in two places, yet they still don't have WBNX-HD. WBNX-HD shows more HD than TBS, considering not one show on TBS has been HD since baseball ended. The proof of this was last Friday. The Wizaed of Oz was on TNT and TBS, so I checked both channels. ON TNT-HD, the movie was in OAR and the PQ was fantastic. On TBS-HD, it was in stretch-o-vision and looked horrible.

hookbill

11-17-07, 06:10 PM

It's unlikely that cable will be able to compete with the HD offerings of satellite when the satellite companies can increase their bandwidth by launching another bird.

Absolutely wrong. Cable will be able to compete. Three words: Switch Digital Video.

Now having said that does that mean they will be competing in our area soon? I doubt it. But I think in other areas of the country you will see it happening.

Before it happens here it will happen in Cincinnati where I believe they have all their stations aligned on the same channels (terryforster, I know you're reading). That's what needs to be done here first and it's my personal belief that they are having difficulty pulling that off.

And what I wouldn't give to have FX in HD. They've got great shows on that network.

paule123

11-17-07, 07:31 PM

Absolutely wrong. Cable will be able to compete. Three words: Switch Digital Video.

Now having said that does that mean they will be competing in our area soon? I doubt it. But I think in other areas of the country you will see it happening.

Before it happens here it will happen in Cincinnati where I believe they have all their stations aligned on the same channels (terryforster, I know you're reading). That's what needs to be done here first and it's my personal belief that they are having difficulty pulling that off.

And what I wouldn't give to have FX in HD. They've got great shows on that network.

I'm not so sure cable will be able to compete. SDV relies on the supposition that not all the people are watching all the channels at the same time. It doesn't add any bandwidth to an already limited system. Meanwhile the satellite companies are actually ADDING bandwidth to their system with NEW satellites, not cannibalizing or playing tricks (SDV) with the limited bandwidth they have. Also cable really needs to go to the more effiecient MPEG4 if they want to compete - do you see them swapping out all those cable boxes anytime soon?

I'm down in Florida this weekend and just laughed at Comcast's TV ads promoting "3X" the HD that DirecTV has. What a joke. I've read in another AVS thread that even Comcast FIOS customers can't get all the HD channels because of a bad engineering decision Comcast made with FIOS. Cable has big problems, IMO.

Inundated

11-17-07, 08:15 PM

WTBS-HD was rushed on for the baseball playoffs and shows very little real HD at this point.

True. I don't know if they've shown ANY HD since the baseball playoffs, to be honest. Have they?

Oh, just nitpicking here, it's no longer "W"TBS. TBS is now officially a separate cable network from its long-time broadcast "parent", the now-former WTBS/17 in Atlanta.

Channel 17 in Atlanta is now locally-oriented independent "Peachtree TV", and I think carries the calls WPCH-TV.

I've read in another AVS thread that even Comcast FIOS customers can't get all the HD channels because of a bad engineering decision Comcast made with FIOS. Cable has big problems, IMO.

Umm, when did Comcast start offering FIOS? I thought that was exclusively from Verizon.

paule123

11-17-07, 08:21 PM

True. I don't know if they've shown ANY HD since the baseball playoffs, to be honest. Have they?

Oh, just nitpicking here, it's no longer "W"TBS. TBS is now officially a separate cable network from its long-time broadcast "parent", the now-former WTBS/17 in Atlanta.

Channel 17 in Atlanta is now locally-oriented independent "Peachtree TV", and I think carries the calls WPCH-TV.

Umm, when did Comcast start offering FIOS? I thought that was exclusively from Verizon.

Oops, you got me there, it is Verizon with FIOS. But the point being even with fiber with theoretically unlimited bandwidth, the cable company screwed it up. :D

IIRC, they encode video using the same QAM encoding as we get on coax, thus no net gain on HD channels.

hookbill

11-18-07, 11:13 AM

I know everyone is aware that the Browns are in HD today. A look at www.zap2.it.com indicates that the 2 Fox games are not in HD. However another look at www.titantv.com indicates they are.

So I went to here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=938987) in our own trusty AVS Forum to see if I can get the correct answer. Both Fox games are in HD today.

Tribune Media (zap2it.com) seems to get this wrong frequently and since my guide data comes from there I would like to see them get it correct.

The double header is on Fox this week so no need to adjust your CBS programs if you are recording.

And from what I can see both Fox and CBS are showing the same amount of HD games.....6 each.

KennedyJ

11-18-07, 12:26 PM

I have 0 signal on 19-1 (WOIODT) @ 12:30PM today. I've never had a problem with it before. Does anyone know if they are having issues or something has changed?

Thanks!

schandorsky

11-18-07, 12:30 PM

I have 0 signal on 19-1 (WOIODT) @ 12:30PM today. I've never had a problem with it before. Does anyone know if they are having issues or something has changed?

Thanks!

Same with Time Warner Cable in Elyria.

GregF2

11-18-07, 12:32 PM

Same here in Amherst. SD channel works fine. Is this a TW issue?

edjrwinnt

11-18-07, 12:37 PM

I cannot get WOIO over OTA either.

ParsonsBri

11-18-07, 12:43 PM

Somebody call them! (I am painting!)
I get no signal on Directv WOIO or OTA. They are down.

C'mon guys!

I wonder if I will be able to get the NFL ST feed. Wont know till 1pm.

Sfancik

11-18-07, 12:48 PM

Seems to be back.

Sfancik

11-18-07, 12:50 PM

At least OTA is working at 12:52 from Akron.

hookbill

11-18-07, 04:04 PM

Going off topic a bit, but is it my imagination or are these announcers trying to find any way possible to put in the minds of viewers that the Browns have no business winning this game?

Smarty-pants

11-18-07, 04:15 PM

It does not matter if it's the Browns, Indians, Cavs, ect...
No (supposedly neutral) commentator what-so-ever in existance will give any Cleveland team any real due respect. If the Browns score, then it's lazy defense by Baltimore. It's just the same thing over and over again. They actually have given Cribbs some credit though. Although they don't really have a choice on that one.
Did you hear them actually go out of their way to state that the guy wearing an orange scarf is not doing so to support Cleveland? Unbelievable.

paule123

11-18-07, 04:53 PM

What an ending. I don't think the announcers or the officials on the field exactly knew what the rulebook said in that situation (field goal bouncing back out)

hookbill

11-18-07, 05:05 PM

What an ending. I don't think the announcers or the officials on the field exactly knew what the rulebook said in that situation (field goal bouncing back out)

Got to be the strangest football game I've seen in my 55 years. Browns should have won that game a heck of a lot easier then they did.

Now to get on topic and justify my comments, pq was excellent as was the sound.

Smarty-pants

11-18-07, 05:21 PM

hookbill

11-18-07, 05:58 PM

Surprisingly the announcers started praising the Browns a little more after we made comments here. hmmm...

About five seconds after the field goal, I was screaming at the tv that it went through and bounced back. I thought, how the heck can no one else see that? Then, finally they figured it out.

The pic looked good for me when it was not malfuntioning. There were 2 times in the beginning of the game when everything went black for a minute and I had to switch to sd. Also throughout the game, the pic kept pixelating slightly throughout the game. Just little blips here and there. Not like last week when the pixelization was so bad that I had to watch half the game in sd. I'm watching on TW via QAM in Canton.

I didn't see that at all. However during half time there were some sound drop offs but in my book that doesn't count. Watching TW via S3.

On the announcers the one who said they needed at least 30 to win was right on the money. I don't think they will get to the playoffs this year but I think if they can improve their defense next year they may have a chance. Their secondary is a bit weak.

HD MM

11-18-07, 09:11 PM

I didn't see that at all. However during half time there were some sound drop offs but in my book that doesn't count. Watching TW via S3.

On the announcers the one who said they needed at least 30 to win was right on the money. I don't think they will get to the playoffs this year but I think if they can improve their defense next year they may have a chance. Their secondary is a bit weak.

A stat flashed during the game on CBS stated that the Browns have the easiest remaining schedule throughout the remainder of this season. Couple that with the Steelers loss to the Jets and we are only 1 game out of first place in the AFC North. A Wild Card bid is a definite reality with our record and even the AFC North title is within reach as the Steelers still have to face the Patriots and Jacksonville this year.

Oh BTW, the WOIO CBS 19.1 broadcast via D* contained no interruptions in picture or audio here in good ol' Lyndhurst, Ohio. (28th best place in the U.S. to raise a family according to Business Week as reported in The Plain Dealer on Saturday. (http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1195291962294310.xml&coll=2) ;))

texasbrit

11-19-07, 08:34 AM

No. I've twice complained to D* technical people who claim they then were submitting a trouble report advising that it needed to be fixed in a firmware update. It was "supposedly" fixed in May and then messed up by a subsequent update.
You won't like the results of my survey. The HR20-100 receives stations broadcasting on VHF-lo channel 2 OK. Posters from Tallahassee (WTWC) and Grand Rapids (WWMT) report no problem in receiving their channel 2 VHF-lo digital station with the HR20-100. So it looks like you will have to look for some other reason why you are not receiving WKYC.

rlb

11-19-07, 08:49 AM

You won't like the results of my survey. The HR20-100 receives stations broadcasting on VHF-lo channel 2 OK. Posters from Tallahassee (WTWC) and Grand Rapids (WWMT) report no problem in receiving their channel 2 VHF-lo digital station with the HR20-100. So it looks like you will have to look for some other reason why you are not receiving WKYC.

Thanks. Very interesting; but hard to understand.

I have an outdoor antenna and am only 6 miles directly south of the antenna farm. All my signals are strong. I can receive 3-1 (with the same coax feed) on my internal Sony SXRD antenna or on my old HR10-250; and could even with the Samsung STB and 1st generation Mitsubishi STB (5-6 years ago). Only the HR20-100 won't receive the signal (both of mine show "searching for signal"). The HR20 receives all the others.

DaMavs

11-19-07, 08:50 AM

Do note that since the Steelers swept the Browns it's essentially a 1.5 game Pittsburgh lead in the division. i.e. a tie and the Browns still lose the division. Given the weak schedule, the playoffs certainly would seem a possibility presuming they can close 4-2. When was the last time all 3 Cleveland teams made the playoffs?

Hmmm...Now that I think about it - it's never happened. Kind of amazing. The only Browns playoff appearance since the Tribe started actually making the playoffs was in '02 when the Tribe missed. And of course going back to when the Tribe last made the playoffs before the '90s (1954) the Cavs didn't exist.

On the D* HDR20-100 question. I've had 3 different HDR20-100's hooked up to OTA antennas and NONE received 3-1. 2 different HD Tivos and 2 OTA TV tuners all received 3-1 with that setup so I'm certain the blame lies w/the HDR20. Given the MPEG4 HD locals, it's not that huge a deal to me though...

Michael P 2341

11-19-07, 12:44 PM

Thanks. Very interesting; but hard to understand.

I have an outdoor antenna and am only 6 miles directly south of the antenna farm. All my signals are strong. I can receive 3-1 (with the same coax feed) on my internal Sony SXRD antenna or on my old HR10-250; and could even with the Samsung STB and 1st generation Mitsubishi STB (5-6 years ago). Only the HR20-100 won't receive the signal (both of mine show "searching for signal"). The HR20 receives all the others.I can see WKYC's tower out my back window and have problems at times. There must be multipath issues with their digital signal. I know their analog signal was bad for years when I lived in Seven Hills (at the top of the hill where you would not expect any multipath problems). One day WKYC-TV's picture improved and the very next day COX Cable had to come out and rewire my neighbor's house due to new interference from WKYC.

My E* 921 has issues with WKYC-DT, but at least slight adjustments to the rabbit ears fixes the problem. It's not worth the investment in a VHF only antenna for WKYC since they will be moving to ch 17 in '09. I have no problems with WOIO-DT even though virtually everyone else does.

Tom in OH

11-19-07, 01:27 PM

jtscherne

11-19-07, 01:31 PM

Yes, the problem is only the -100. I have an HR20-700 connected OTA and receive Channel 3 quite well. However, when I first got the unit back in March, Channel 3 would not come in. A later software upgrade corrected the problem.

DaMavs and rlb, thx for posting your results with 3-1 on the HR20-100s. Just to follow up is anyone receiving 3-1 with the D* receiver?

It's possible the problem is only with the HR20-100s(and not the -700). Is anyone in Cleveland using the HR20-700 connected to ota?

thx, Tom

paule123

11-19-07, 10:21 PM

Just to stir the pot a bit :D ...

I read an article today that said the new CEO of Time Warner who takes the helm on Jan 1 is interested in selling off the cable business. The business requires too much capital expenditure on upgrades, maintenance, etc. Looks like 2008 could be interesting for you TWC folks...

hookbill

11-20-07, 07:36 AM

HD MM

11-20-07, 09:01 AM

It appears the Browns have started to gain more respect around the league. This weeks Houston @ Cleveland game will be in HD again on CBS. Looks like the teams that got snubbed is the Tennessee @ Cincinnati game. My how things change......

See link: here. (http://www.sportsline.com/cbssports/schedules/page/nfl)

paule123

11-20-07, 09:08 AM

Paule123 you've been around long enough to know that when you make those type of comments you really should post a link to support what you said. I'm not saying you didn't read that, but I'd like to see the entire text of what was written. Further I've never read anything previously other then what TW's goals were to make more HD available.

It's OK to stir the pot, heaven knows I do it as often as possible.;) But give a little backbone to your statement.

I read it in an article in this week's Economist which is not posted on their website yet for reference, but you can see a lot of hits in Google relating to the "common wisdom" from the Wall St. analysts...

http://www.google.com/search?q=time+warner+bewkes+ceo+sell+parts&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

Tom in OH

11-20-07, 01:28 PM

Yes, the problem is only the -100. I have an HR20-700 connected OTA and receive Channel 3 quite well. However, when I first got the unit back in March, Channel 3 would not come in. A later software upgrade corrected the problem.

ok, good thx for posting. I thought someone had said they received 3-1 with a -700. To make things more strange, TexasBrit has confirmed the others receiving digital 2 are using HR20-100s. Maybe there's something different about the signal coming from WKYC-DT on digital 2 that trips up the HR20-100.

Michael P 2341

11-20-07, 04:29 PM

SteveC

11-20-07, 07:43 PM

DaMavs and rlb, thx for posting your results with 3-1 on the HR20-100s. Just to follow up is anyone receiving 3-1 with the D* receiver?

It's possible the problem is only with the HR20-100s(and not the -700). Is anyone in Cleveland using the HR20-700 connected to ota?

thx, Tom

I have the HR20-700 and have no problem receiving 3-1 via OTA. Antennaweb has me 29.8 miles from the transmitter.

intermod

11-21-07, 10:56 AM

Hooray!

Yeah, I noticed that last night, Yet another thing to be thankful for!

Hey Intermod,
I see that WQHS finally fixed their top tower light. That only took around 11 days.

schandorsky

11-21-07, 07:23 PM

Tom in OH

11-21-07, 08:03 PM

I have the HR20-700 and have no problem receiving 3-1 via OTA. Antennaweb has me 29.8 miles from the transmitter.

I'd sure like to know what the difference is between the -100 and the -700 that causes this difference. We have 2 HR20-100s and neither are able to receive 3-1. Maybe they'll fix it in a sw update. Thx for posting.

toby10

11-21-07, 08:10 PM

Inundated

11-21-07, 09:04 PM

I found two new channels on my QAM tuner, WKYC and WUAB, both 480i and separate from their HD and analog channels. This is on Time Warner in the Elyria area. I wonder what they are up to now?

TWC/ex-Adelphia Cleveland has had this for a while. They sub the analog channels with digital SD if you have a non-HD digital cable box. We spent about a week trying to figure this out here. :D

The low-number channels (3/5/8 and 4/6 for 19/43) will also feed this digital SD even on HDTV cable boxes, with of course the HD versions feeding up in the HD channels.

Since the analog channels have to go SOMEWHERE on the box, TWC sticks 'em up in the 800 series (803, etc.).

The only people who see the analog versions of the local channels in their "usual home" (lower channels) are those without any cable box. But they don't have SD digital/480i versions of some of the locals, like 23, 25, 49 or 55...

schandorsky

11-21-07, 09:43 PM

TWC/ex-Adelphia Cleveland has had this for a while. They sub the analog channels with digital SD if you have a non-HD digital cable box. We spent about a week trying to figure this out here. :D

The low-number channels (3/5/8 and 4/6 for 19/43) will also feed this digital SD even on HDTV cable boxes, with of course the HD versions feeding up in the HD channels.

Since the analog channels have to go SOMEWHERE on the box, TWC sticks 'em up in the 800 series (803, etc.).

The only people who see the analog versions of the local channels in their "usual home" (lower channels) are those without any cable box. But they don't have SD digital/480i versions of some of the locals, like 23, 25, 49 or 55...
Thanks for the info. These channels just came up in the last week or so. The weather channels are the 110,s I believe. Up to this time Time Warner in Elyria didn't have anything scrambled, so we got everything in the clear. Now with the exception of TBSHD, local HD channels, and the analog everything else is gone without the use of a cablebox or cablecard.
I wonder if they are going all digital, if that is possible or legal?

mnowlin

11-22-07, 01:00 AM

Now with the exception of TBSHD, local HD channels, and the analog everything else is gone without the use of a cablebox or cablecard.
I wonder if they are going all digital, if that is possible or legal?

Possible, sure - I just think it's highly unlikely any time soon. I'm sure the cable companies get a good bit of cash from basic subscribers who don't have or want to pay for a box. If they went all digital, they would need to convince these people to buy QAM-capable TVs or sign up for a box. I don't think that would go over very well, and could push a lot of users towards satellite. All depends on the monthly bill...

Legally, they have a lot of latitude, but they can't encrypt the local channels (which I believe includes HD), and I'm guessing that getting rid of the analog locals (essentially "encrypting" them for anyone who doesn't have digital capability) would raise related questions.

That's my understanding of things, which I REALLY hope is true. If so, when TWC finally gets around to implementing SDV, the locals would be exempt from SDV, and my PC QAM HD cards won't go belly-up.

Inundated

11-22-07, 06:38 AM

BTW, here in the old Adelphia system, TWC has kept the unencrypted digital channels on QAM, and even added a couple (TNT-HD) for whatever reason.

It seems to dovetail with what kind of channels they are. The ones they don't encrypt are all basic tier HD stuff.

I suspect the last poster is right, that they can't encrypt the locals. There's been some back and forth about whether that means they can't encrypt local HD channels, but that's generally the practice. Anything else is "gravy", and TWC Elyira can (as far as I can figure) encrypt whatever it wants outside the locals.

Speedskater

11-22-07, 07:25 PM

Cox Cleveland just added the NFL-HD channel for tonights football game.

mnowlin

11-23-07, 02:42 AM

I suspect the last poster is right, that they can't encrypt the locals. There's been some back and forth about whether that means they can't encrypt local HD channels, but that's generally the practice.

I found an FCC bulletin released Sep 11, 2007 that talks about this. It confirms that cable operators are required to convert digital feeds of local channels to analog delivery until at least 2012. Near the end of the document is the following:

While the item provides cable operators with flexibility, the FCC reaffirmed the requirement that cable systems must carry high definition (“HD”) broadcast signals in HD format and reaffirmed its current material degradation standard. Cable operators must carry broadcast signals so that the picture quality is at least as good as the quality of any other programming carried on the system.

Given the spirit of the document, I believe this section requires the cable ops to deliver the HD feeds w/o encryption - the opening statement says:

All cable subscribers, including those with analog TV sets, can view broadcast television after the transition to digital television occurs

Document can be found at http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-276576A1.pdf

A related article can be found at http://blog.wired.com/business/2007/09/fcc-to-cable-co.html

hookbill

11-23-07, 08:25 AM

Inundated

11-23-07, 12:00 PM

I read Inundateds comments as well and I was a bit puzzled by what he said about encryption of broadcast HD. Cable companies, as mnowlin points out, cannot encrypt broadcast HD signals.

I think the question was - can cable operators offering unencrypted QAM feeds of the locals in SD format, like pointed out here (and like TWC does on its other systems), encrypt the HD versions of the locals?

I'm not altogether sure the argument above prevents it. The locals in SD in unencrypted QAM could allow the cable operator to say they make the local stations available unencrypted, no?

From the Wired link:

To avoid such Poltergeistian scenarios, the FCC is giving cable operators two choices, neither of which they want. Providers can either carry the digital signal in analog format (which basically means carrying three versions of a single channel, hence the bandwidth worries), or they can offer digital standard definition only and hand out converter boxes to all their subscribers -- the super expensive alternative.

None of this, and even the other quoted above, deals with QAM or carrying the channels in the clear.

If they keep the three versions (analog, digital SD and digital HD), the unencrypted signal could well "legally" be the analog version.

If they keep only digital SD and dump analog, they'd be required - if the above is right - to give digital converter boxes (presumably without a monthly fee, since that'd be "giving away").

I see nothing in either the FCC document or the Wired story that references clear QAM, and the second would seem to indicate that universally available, free digital converter boxes would count for access standards. And none of this talks about HD feeds being in clear QAM, unless I missed something.

Valnar

11-24-07, 06:22 PM

ajstan99

11-24-07, 07:24 PM

I just got a HDTV and let the TV auto-setup the channels. I have WOW basic CableTV. No HD package. This TV found all my local unencrypted QAM channels except one (I assume). It didn't find the Fox 8 HD channel.

Can anyone tell me where it's supposed to be?

Thanks,
Robert

WJW is currently on channel 101-202. Here's a link with other channels you may be able to get:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12224971#post12224971

Valnar

11-24-07, 08:44 PM

WJW is currently on channel 101-202. Here's a link with other channels you may be able to get:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12224971#post12224971

Ah, thanks for the link. HD sure looks nice. Watching The Incredibles right now.

Robert

nickdawg

11-24-07, 09:53 PM

Ah, thanks for the link. HD sure looks nice. Watching The Incredibles right now.

Robert

"The Incredibles" is really an Easter Egg. To see a movie on TV in HD and OAR is rare. Usually it's 4:3 with sidebars or 16:9 cut to eliminate the letterbox bars. The movie is 2.35:1 and it is nice to see it shown that way.

With the writers' strike, I hope to see more properly shown movies on TV. Unless people b*tch about the bars on the screen. If you like good HD and properly shown movies, check out the link in my signature. :)

I correct myself. There are no "bars" on the screen. All it is is leftover screen because the size of the picture is different than the size of the screen. If NBC had shown the movie "double letterboxed" on the SD channel, keeping it in 2.35:1, you would actually be seeing 30-40% MORE than on the chopped 4:3 version.

JJkizak

11-25-07, 10:05 AM

The "Incredibles" was shown correctly OTA with black bars on top/bottom, 2.35 x 1.

toby10

11-25-07, 11:47 AM

mavtv

11-25-07, 06:43 PM

Speaking of subchannels, I wonder when WBNX will get around to putting something on 55-2. I've scanned them several times and 55-2 keeps showing up but with nothing on.[/QUOTE]

At one point WBNX promised that another channel was coming. The anouncement was made on the 90 and 9 club. That was in June 2005 when they got the rights to friends. I also remember them doing a segment on the now defunt heart to heart with Annie and Al on how with digtal television they could do so many things with a digital signal and that was in 2003. I have noticed a few changes on ch 55.

One of the on air hosts Niel is no longer on the WBNX website, Ronnie Duncon has left both WBNX' slammin jammin sportscast and WERE/1490. I heard Ronnie has left Cleveland for Baltimore where he was orginally from. I also notice that there is a new general manager replacing Annie Kieth.

With all of this could Ernest Angley be in the process of selling ch 55 or at least considering it? With ch 8 still on the selling block and only Oak Hill Capital led by radio maverick Randy Michaels of clear channel fame having any intrest at all, could Ernest be thinking how much money he could get for WBNX. Besides The CW and Ernest Angley is not a perfect fit considering that the CW does feature a program that has the antichrist buying the soul of a slacker who becomes his bounty hunter. To see the TV show Reaper airing on a TV station that is owned by a Christian evangelist faith healer it makes me wonder what his plans are.

I would assume that both ch 3 and ch 5 would love to have a NBC/CW or ABC/CW duolopy where they could hit 2 different demographics and be able to sell ads for 2 different stations. Since Cleveland only has one duolopy in ch 19/43, and Raycheap has found a niche on running those two stations into the ground at the same time, why not let a respectable broadcaster have a chance at owning two different stations? What's the worse that could happen anyway.

For WKYC, this would be a dream come true where they could either do a Cleveland 10 PM news or move the Akron/Canton new from Time Warner ch in the Akron system to WBNX where they could get increased coverage from the OTA signal. In addition, they could place either Indians or Browns games on ch 55 so they do not have to preempt NBC programming as much as they do.

http://www.wbnx.com/station_information.php

nickdawg

11-26-07, 12:30 AM

I would assume that both ch 3 and ch 5 would love to have a NBC/CW or ABC/CW duolopy where they could hit 2 different demographics and be able to sell ads for 2 different stations. Since Cleveland only has one duolopy in ch 19/43, and Raycheap has found a niche on running those two stations into the ground at the same time, why not let a respectable broadcaster have a chance at owning two different stations? What's the worse that could happen anyway.

For WKYC, this would be a dream come true where they could either do a Cleveland 10 PM news or move the Akron/Canton new from Time Warner ch in the Akron system to WBNX where they could get increased coverage from the OTA signal. In addition, they could place either Indians or Browns games on ch 55 so they do not have to preempt NBC programming as much as they do.

http://www.wbnx.com/station_information.php

I have thought the EXACT same thing! I would love to see a WKYC/WBNX duopoly. The Akron/Canton News on WBNX would be a good idea, plus we would have a strong duopoly. WKYC could dominate WOIO/WUAB on every front. WKYC already beats WOIO at 11pm, then WBNX could beat WUAB(even though friends already beats WUAB's 10pm news).

And it would be nice to see more over the air Indians games. WBNX has three or four strong nights of programming, and WKYC only has Thursday, so preempting wouldn't be a problem.

Now, if only we could get WBNX-DT on cable. And for that WBNX-DT2, I would like to see a digital version of the SD broadcast on WBNX's subchannel, that way we could have a digital WBNX on SDTVs.

nickdawg

11-26-07, 12:42 AM

ajstan99: Thanks for the great info. I am also on WOW and had no idea many of these channels were available via Clear QAM. If you find any new ones or channel changes in the future, do post so.

Many thanks! :)

All I can say is "WOW"! It is very pathetic that a smaller company like WOW owns Time Warner in the HD department. WOW has several channels Time Warner does not and they offer more clear QAM channels too.

And speaking of Time Warner, did anyone notice that Time Warner is now putting in their own commercials on the HD feeds of TNT and TBS? I noticed it the other day. The TW commercials are shown in 4:3, the TNT/TBS commercials are stretch-o-vision.

hookbill

11-26-07, 08:09 AM

And speaking of Time Warner, did anyone notice that Time Warner is now putting in their own commercials on the HD feeds of TNT and TBS? I noticed it the other day. The TW commercials are shown in 4:3, the TNT/TBS commercials are stretch-o-vision.

This has been going on since Adelphia had those stations in analog only. They also do this on WGN.

azporter

11-26-07, 09:32 PM

hookbill

11-26-07, 10:19 PM

Well, I knew the time had to come. :mad:

Our SA8300HD reset a little while back (a week ago, maybe?) and I'm guessing we got a f/w update. It seems now that we get sporadic macro blocking and audio artifacts on playback of recordings. Needless to say, my wife is a bit *ahem* unhappy. :)

Oddly, live TV doesn't show this issue which really make little sense since it's playing off the drive too.

I was wondering if anybody else has had problems lately...I'm worried that a helpful f/w update has caused these problems. I'm remembering the pain I went through a couple years ago when a f/w update on Cox Phoenix broke my firewire recording. It's painful to get any help from the provider on this stuff.

Simple solution. Get rid of the SA 8300 and get a TiVo HD or TiVo S3.

Concerned about SDV? Don't be, they announced today that the dongle, which will convert the TiVo into a two way box will be available by 2nd quarter 2008. In this area I predict we won't see SDV until 2009.

So check around, find a good deal (I recommend the S3 - Why drive a Hyndai when you can drive a BMW?) Get your cable cards installed, then tie that pos SA 8300 to the back of your car bumper and return it to your nearest TW, or whatever cable company your with, local office.

You'll be glad you did!

Inundated

11-26-07, 10:40 PM

So check around, find a good deal (I recommend the S3 - Why drive a Hyndai when you can drive a BMW?)

I love it when people spend my money. :D Are you paying the difference between an S3 and a TiVo HD for me? I'll PM you my address...

Seriously, though, I am thinking about a TiVo HD, and to hear it can get around SDV would probably push me towards getting one.

mnowlin

11-27-07, 12:34 AM

mnowlin

11-27-07, 12:43 AM

Concerned about SDV? Don't be, they announced today that the dongle, which will convert the TiVo into a two way box will be available by 2nd quarter 2008. In this area I predict we won't see SDV until 2009.

I found the following:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6505011.html

Major cable operators in the second quarter of 2008 expect to offer an adapter to customers of TiVo’s digital video recorders that will give the DVRs direct access to switched digital video

Interesting that it says the cable companies will offer the dongle, which I'm sure means a few extra bucks on my monthly bill. I'd much rather just buy the thing, but I'll take what I can get.

ajstan99

11-27-07, 01:21 PM

ajstan99: Thanks for the great info. I am also on WOW and had no idea many of these channels were available via Clear QAM. If you find any new ones or channel changes in the future, do post so.

Many thanks! :)

Hi toby10 - you're certainly welcome, but unfortunately, as of this morning, WOW has now re-encrypted the new channels that recently popped up in the clear. I was hoping that they were going to leave them up to be competitive with TWC's clear QAM channels, but no dice for now.

toby10

11-27-07, 02:08 PM

Hi toby10 - you're certainly welcome, but unfortunately, as of this morning, WOW has now re-encrypted the new channels that recently popped up in the clear. I was hoping that they were going to leave them up to be competitive with TWC's clear QAM channels, but no dice for now.

Well, that figures. :) I heard some strange, intermittent audio clicking last night on WOW and I'll bet that was them changing the encryption on those channels.

Oh well, back to OTA, but I'll miss HDNET & TNTHD. Let us know if any others pop up.

Valnar

11-27-07, 08:09 PM

Hi toby10 - you're certainly welcome, but unfortunately, as of this morning, WOW has now re-encrypted the new channels that recently popped up in the clear. I was hoping that they were going to leave them up to be competitive with TWC's clear QAM channels, but no dice for now.

I just noticed that tonight too. I've had my HDTV for all of 4 days and was enjoying those channels. Got them all scanned and setup -- then WOW pulled them. sigh....

Robert

HD MM

11-28-07, 08:28 AM

ajstan99

11-28-07, 09:07 AM

Well, I knew the time had to come. :mad:

Our SA8300HD reset a little while back (a week ago, maybe?) and I'm guessing we got a f/w update. It seems now that we get sporadic macro blocking and audio artifacts on playback of recordings. Needless to say, my wife is a bit *ahem* unhappy. :)

Oddly, live TV doesn't show this issue which really make little sense since it's playing off the drive too.

I was wondering if anybody else has had problems lately...I'm worried that a helpful f/w update has caused these problems. I'm remembering the pain I went through a couple years ago when a f/w update on Cox Phoenix broke my firewire recording. It's painful to get any help from the provider on this stuff.

I just got an 8300HDC from WOW this weekend and have had problems with audio dropouts. The weird thing is that the dropouts occur at the same spot in a recording when playing back one day (which to me would indicate a problem with the recording), then the next day they're gone.

Example: I recorded House on both Monday and Tuesday night. Went to watch the Tuesday show, but it was unwatchable due to audio dropouts. I then watched the Monday show with no issues. Afterwards, I went back to the Tuesday show, but still had dropouts. This morning, I watched the opening scene from the Tuesday show and the audio was perfect. I was not recording anything else at either time - just watching the recorded program.

The same thing happened with a movie I recorded off StarzHD. Dropouts on playback one day, no problem the next. Maybe the recordings have to ripen before watching?:D

hookbill

11-28-07, 09:16 AM

*Cleveland's HD Channel List updated to add yet another HD channel to D*'s lineup.

This morning D* added Bio-HD. See updated Google Doc: here. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pI9yd6lJxEOtgyXz6BaZTeg)

I was discussing all these channels that D* is adding and one individual who is pretty savay in thinking things out and he mentioned that it isn't how many HD channels you make available but what the majority of people want. For example, the vast majority of my viewing HD are on the 4 major networks. If I had the CW there would be only 1 show I would watch in HD right now (2 if I ever get the TiVoHD). Other then that there isn't anything else other then an occasional concert on Mojo or HDNet. During the Summer I watch TNT-HD and TBSHD for baseball playoffs.

Now I'm not saying giving your customers a wide choice of programing isn't a good idea. I'm simply saying that maybe many of the HD channels D* is offering I would never even look at. Biography Channel is pretty good but how much real HD will you get on it?

Just my opinion. YMMV and of course you have the right to come right in and slap me upside my head at anytime.;)

jtscherne

11-28-07, 09:34 AM

I understand your point, but what else are they going to do? They have offered every HD channel available, including some who haven't even started real HD programming. The only thing still missing are more premium channels, many of which are expected in 2008.

Everyone has their preferences. I watch hardly any programming on the four networks, so I'm the exact opposite of you (and it's not an age thing, because I suspect we're reasonably close there). I can find HD programming at many times of the day, including Discovery HD, Science HD, etc. Sports has driven HD almost from the beginning and my DVR is full of premium channel movies and shows.

Network television is not as important as it used to be and this is likely to continue (watch what happens if the writers strike isn't settled soon!).

I was discussing all these channels that D* is adding and one individual who is pretty savay in thinking things out and he mentioned that it isn't how many HD channels you make available but what the majority of people want. For example, the vast majority of my viewing HD are on the 4 major networks. If I had the CW there would be only 1 show I would watch in HD right now (2 if I ever get the TiVoHD). Other then that there isn't anything else other then an occasional concert on Mojo or HDNet. During the Summer I watch TNT-HD and TBSHD for baseball playoffs.

Now I'm not saying giving your customers a wide choice of programing isn't a good idea. I'm simply saying that maybe many of the HD channels D* is offering I would never even look at. Biography Channel is pretty good but how much real HD will you get on it?

Just my opinion. YMMV and of course you have the right to come right in and slap me upside my head at anytime.;)

schandorsky

11-28-07, 09:57 AM

Time Warner Elyria just move Cspan2 from analog to digital. I wonder if they have more plans to do this to other channels. I believe they are just getting started.

HD MM

11-28-07, 10:51 AM

I was discussing all these channels that D* is adding and one individual who is pretty savay in thinking things out and he mentioned that it isn't how many HD channels you make available but what the majority of people want. For example, the vast majority of my viewing HD are on the 4 major networks. If I had the CW there would be only 1 show I would watch in HD right now (2 if I ever get the TiVoHD). Other then that there isn't anything else other then an occasional concert on Mojo or HDNet. During the Summer I watch TNT-HD and TBSHD for baseball playoffs.

Now I'm not saying giving your customers a wide choice of programing isn't a good idea. I'm simply saying that maybe many of the HD channels D* is offering I would never even look at. Biography Channel is pretty good but how much real HD will you get on it?

Just my opinion. YMMV and of course you have the right to come right in and slap me upside my head at anytime.;)

I will go out on a limb and say if given the opportunity to have over 58 HD channels at your access, even YOU may stray away from the comfort of the "4 major networks". I have found myself watching obscure programs on channels that I normally wouldn't give the time of day, simply for the fact that it was stunning to look at in HD! Isn't that what HD is all about anyways? Watching stuff you normally wouldn't watch just for the fact that it looks pretty?

Now go trade in that damn TiVo for a chainsaw and start chopping down trees so you can have a clear-line of sight to put up a satellite so you can start basking in all of the HD glory with the rest of us ;)

hookbill

11-28-07, 11:06 AM

I will go out on a limb and say if given the opportunity to have over 58 HD channels at your access, even YOU may stray away from the comfort of the "4 major networks". I have found myself watching obscure programs on channels that I normally wouldn't give the time of day, simply for the fact that it was stunning to look at in HD! Isn't that what HD is all about anyways? Watching stuff you normally wouldn't watch just for the fact that it looks pretty?

Now go trade in that damn TiVo for a chainsaw and start chopping down trees so you can have a clear-line of sight to put up a satellite so you can start basking in all of the HD glory with the rest of us ;)

Actually I don't do that. The reason is that I have so many programs in my TiVo I really don't have time to watch anything else except maybe football on Sundays.

Trade in my TiVo? Blasphemy!:D

nippywiffle

11-28-07, 01:21 PM

Lighting Guy

11-28-07, 10:28 PM

Does anyone know if TW in the Cleveland area started encrypting WOIO HD?
I had it working fine on my PC running mediaportal for weeks, and it just recently stopped working. All the other clear QAM HD channels work.

Thanks,
Dan

I'm on the east side on old adelphia, QAM. A few weeks ago they moved some channels around on us. After deleting my channel list and rescanning it found the channels. Try a rescan, WOIO is currently working for me on QAM.

mnowlin

11-29-07, 01:06 AM

I just got an 8300HDC from WOW this weekend and have had problems with audio dropouts. The weird thing is that the dropouts occur at the same spot in a recording when playing back one day (which to me would indicate a problem with the recording), then the next day they're gone.

The same thing happened with a movie I recorded off StarzHD. Dropouts on playback one day, no problem the next. Maybe the recordings have to ripen before watching?:D

This was one of the more annoying problems I had with my 8300HDC. After a while, I noticed a pattern to it - the busier the machine was, the more significant the dropouts. Watching live TV was usually fine, watching live while recording another show was annoying, and watching a recording from the previous hour while recording two other shows was horrible. (Box recorded a show from 8-9, two shows from 9-10, and during the 9-10 hour you played back the 8-9 show.)

I'm pretty sure the box does a nightly(?) cleanup - at various times late at night, the hard drive got really busy for a while. The next day everything played fine. I'm guessing it does a sort of defragmentation, which would lighten the load on the box.

mnowlin

11-29-07, 02:09 AM

I will go out on a limb and say.....

Now go trade in that damn TiVo for a chainsaw and start chopping down trees so you can have a clear-line of sight to put up a satellite so you can start basking in all of the HD glory with the rest of us ;)

You go out on a limb, then ask Hook to chop down the tree? That doesn't seem very smart... :)

About a month ago, one of the neighbor's 80-foot oak trees came crashing down in my front yard. A little minor damage to my roof, but we were overall very lucky. They took down a second tree just to be safe. Funny thing is those two trees coming down created a opening that gives me line-of-sight to the south, but I had already (mostly) convinced my wife to get a TiVo - didn't want to shift gears at that point.

Jim Gilliland

11-29-07, 07:33 AM

I just got an 8300HDC from WOW this weekend and have had problems with audio dropouts.

It's a common problem with the 8300:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909615

I suspect that it is due to a slow hard drive. I'm still using the 8300 that exhibits this problem, but I've added an external eSATA drive to it, so the problem occurs only very rarely for me now. Eventually, I'll take it back to TWC and ask them to replace it.

I assume that you're using a digital output from the 8300. Just out of curiosity, what receiver does the audio go to?

hookbill

11-29-07, 07:45 AM

It's a common problem with the 8300:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909615

I suspect that it is due to a slow hard drive. I'm still using the 8300 that exhibits this problem, but I've added an external eSATA drive to it, so the problem occurs only very rarely for me now. Eventually, I'll take it back to TWC and ask them to replace it.

I assume that you're using a digital output from the 8300. Just out of curiosity, what receiver does the audio go to?

Jim, I assume you are using the regular SA 8300. I've heard this 8300HDC is very buggy.

Interesting that you mention that adding an eSATA drive has the problem occuring rarely. When I added the eSATA on mine I didn't notice any difference in sound drop offs but what I did notice was that with the eSATA attached it made it more prone to do partial recordings.

It's a very strange machine, as most know I went through 3 of them and had the same problems each time. Yet someone else in the same area will say it doesn't give them too much problem.

I do know how to fix all those problems but I know you all are tired of hearing it.:p

ajstan99

11-29-07, 09:11 AM

It's a common problem with the 8300:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909615

I suspect that it is due to a slow hard drive. I'm still using the 8300 that exhibits this problem, but I've added an external eSATA drive to it, so the problem occurs only very rarely for me now. Eventually, I'll take it back to TWC and ask them to replace it.

I assume that you're using a digital output from the 8300. Just out of curiosity, what receiver does the audio go to?

Thanks for the link, Jim. Looks like I'm not alone. I'm running HDMI to the TV and Optical to an Onkyo TX-SR503. Have tried both the HDMI and the Dolby Digital audio settings with the same results.

The issue seems to be with playback, not recording, as getting a reset signal sent from WOW seems to temporarily fix the problem and give me time to watch at least one recording without dropouts. If I switch to a different recording or a live channel, the dropouts return. SD recordings are always fine. A tech is coming next week to swap it out.

This is my first DVR and it's definitely worth the extra $5 per month ... if it works. Luckily, my expectations going into this were appropriately lowered by others' posts about the 8300s (thanks, Hook!), so my problems aren't a big surprise.

paule123

11-29-07, 09:36 AM

This is my first DVR and it's definitely worth the extra $5 per month ... if it works. Luckily, my expectations going into this were appropriately lowered by others' posts about the 8300s (thanks, Hook!), so my problems aren't a big surprise.

$5 a month for the 8300HD ? I've been paying WOW $12.99 a month for that thing! :mad:

TV21CHIEF

11-29-07, 09:46 AM

...to an Onkyo TX-SR503...

Does your Onkyo drop audio briefly when it switches from DD5.1 to PLII? I have an Onlyo TX-SR573. When we go to a local break out of NBC DD5.1 it will clip the first syllables of the next event while it switches back to PLII. Just curious.

hookbill

11-29-07, 09:54 AM

Here is what one person who is a softwear engineer had to say about SARA and the SA8300 (he likes Passport):

Originally Posted by michaeltscott
SARA, on the other hand is a crude POS that was obviously designed entirely by a group of programmers. Even the fonts are crude hand-made bitmaps created by someone with no art training. The whole thing has all the style and class of a high-school sophomore programming class project, done from scratch by a group of poorly motivated and untalented students. As a professional sofware engineer with long experience in UI design for production systems it offends my sensibilities. It amounts to consumer abuse--like serving up unappetizing slop in a restaurant, for which you charge premium prices.

Just an FYI.

ajstan99

11-29-07, 10:20 AM

$5 a month for the 8300HD ? I've been paying WOW $12.99 a month for that thing! :mad:

I was referring to the difference between the 3250 HD tuner which is $6.99/mo. vs. $11.99/mo. for the HD-DVR. If you're paying $12.99, they may have lowered the price on the DVR by $1.00. Check out the online price list.

ajstan99

11-29-07, 10:32 AM

Does your Onkyo drop audio briefly when it switches from DD5.1 to PLII? I have an Onlyo TX-SR573. When we go to a local break out of NBC DD5.1 it will clip the first syllables of the next event while it switches back to PLII. Just curious.

I run in PLIIx Movie mode and haven't noticed anything like that with the 3250HD, 8300HDC, or via QAM. I'll pay closer attention and let you know.

BTW, thanks for hanging out here. Wish more of your counterparts did likewise.

toby10

11-29-07, 11:27 AM

Does your Onkyo drop audio briefly when it switches from DD5.1 to PLII? I have an Onlyo TX-SR573. When we go to a local break out of NBC DD5.1 it will clip the first syllables of the next event while it switches back to PLII. Just curious.

I'm not in YT and have not noticed audio drops in DD or PLII for OTA or QAM.

Your system should automatically switch between DD & PLII depending on the audio signal coming in. Mine will sometimes switch from DD to PLII when a commercial is played, then switches back to DD when the program is back on.

Two possibilities that come to mind:

1. Most AVR's have two settings for surround processing. FORCED and AUTO. Auto will auto-detect the signal and select/change the appropriate Dolby mode on the fly. If yours is set to forced your AVR may be set for only one mode therefore having to reprocess/over process the audio to your forced setting causing a momentary delay in audio to your speakers.

2. it may be an audio switching glitch from your NBC station and not a problem with your hardware at all.

ajstan99

11-29-07, 11:51 AM

TV21CHIEF

11-29-07, 12:21 PM

Consider running in Dolby Pro Logic IIx, which can handle the different formats without switching decoders and may likely fix the problem.

Here's an article about choosing your multi-channel decoder from Home Theater & HiFi. See part of the conclusion below:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/feature-prologic-iix-3-2004.html

"More importantly though, a 7.1 system equipped with Dolby Pro Logic IIx as a base takes the guesswork out of what surround decode scheme you should use: Your only choices are "Music" or "Movie", and that is easy to make. Pro Logic IIx will deliver seven main channels for you, regardless of source, without any concern for whether it will sound "right" or "natural". And it will sound right and natural. Leave it at that."

Hmmmmm. I can try that. I only use PL II because I only have 5 speakers. I will try that tonight and see what happens. Thanks. BTW if you want a real earth shaking audio experience, have it switch between STEREO and DD5.1. That's the way it came out of the box. There is much relay clicking and speaker thumping LOL.

toby10

11-29-07, 12:29 PM

Consider running in Dolby Pro Logic IIx, which can handle the different formats without switching decoders and may likely fix the problem.

Here's an article about choosing your multi-channel decoder from Home Theater & HiFi. See part of the conclusion below:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/feature-prologic-iix-3-2004.html

"More importantly though, a 7.1 system equipped with Dolby Pro Logic IIx as a base takes the guesswork out of what surround decode scheme you should use: Your only choices are "Music" or "Movie", and that is easy to make. Pro Logic IIx will deliver seven main channels for you, regardless of source, without any concern for whether it will sound "right" or "natural". And it will sound right and natural. Leave it at that."

Very true, if you are forced to "guess" (i.e. your AVR does not support auto-sensing, auto-detect or auto-switching). If you must manually select your surround decoder for each source, PLII is the best overall one size fits all.

On the other hand, if your system allows for auto-detect and auto-switching, and your source is standard DD 5.1, let the hardware do it's job. At least on my present & last AVR's, when I would second guess the AVR's selected decoding, I've always had to bow to the machine as making the better choice. Although I have not messed with this in quite some time.

TV21CHIEF

11-29-07, 12:34 PM

Very true, if you are forced to "guess" (i.e. your AVR does not support auto-sensing, auto-detect or auto-switching). If you must manually select your surround decoder for each source, PLII is the best overall one size fits all.

On the other hand, if your system allows for auto-detect and auto-switching, and your source is standard DD 5.1, let the hardware do it's job. At least on my present & last AVR's, when I would second guess the AVR's selected decoding, I've always had to bow to the machine as making the better choice. Although I have not messed with this in quite some time.

Mine auto switches, but since I only have 5 speakers there's a setup that asks you 5 or7 speakers. If you set it to 5 you don't get the option to automatically switch between PL IIx and DD5.1, only PL II and DD5.1. Like I said when it auto-switches it mutes for about 1/2 second during the switch.

toby10

11-29-07, 12:58 PM

Mine auto switches, but since I only have 5 speakers there's a setup that asks you 5 or7 speakers. If you set it to 5 you don't get the option to automatically switch between PL IIx and DD5.1, only PL II and DD5.1. Like I said when it auto-switches it mutes for about 1/2 second during the switch.

Yeah, sounds like your auto-switching isn't switching fast enough.

Having only a 5.1 system (same as me) I'm not sure there would be much if any difference between PLII and PLIIx. From my very limited knowledge of surround decoding & processing, I *think* the only real difference between the two is that PLII is 5.1 and PLIIx is 7.1. So it may not matter to not get the "x" anyway.

What I've always wondered with PLIIx used in a 5.1 system, what is the decoder / processor doing with the extra two channels? Is it still sending the signal to two speakers that don't exist? Is it discarding the two signals? Is the AVR smart enough to realize that it's a 7.1 decoding on a 5.1 setup and down-mixes (bastardizes) the extra two signals and adds them to the two existing surround speakers? *shrug*

kosar

11-29-07, 01:12 PM

ajstan99

11-29-07, 01:39 PM

What I've always wondered with PLIIx used in a 5.1 system, what is the decoder / processor doing with the extra two channels? Is it still sending the signal to two speakers that don't exist? Is it discarding the two signals? Is the AVR smart enough to realize that it's a 7.1 decoding on a 5.1 setup and down-mixes (bastardizes) the extra two signals and adds them to the two existing surround speakers? *shrug*

Ah, you and chief are 5.1. PLIIx isn't available as an option with a 5.1 setup. If you have 7.1, PLIIx eliminates the need to switch decoders between Pro Logic, Digital, and EX (manually or automatically) when the content changes between 2.0, 5.1, and/or 6.1.

HD MM

11-29-07, 01:48 PM

Hello everyone,

Great forum and thread!

I'm a newbie with HDTV and the antenna. I'm in South Euclid. I purchased the DA-5200 from Radio Shack (indoor/outdoor). I ran a long coax from my TV through the middle of my kitchen and living room and out the front porch and hung it on a plant hook. Everything seemed just fine. I picked up the 4 major networks with consistency. There was an occaisional "blip" here and there, but not too bad. Now, I had Dish Network installed, and they installed this antenna for me up on my roof, and the coax runs into my Dish receiver. Now, the signal fluctuates wildly, from 80-90 to 0, and I get an annoying yellow message on my screen saying the signal is out. This happens over and over again, coming and going.

I'm assuming the antenna I have isn't going to cut it, especially seeing other ones now on the internet, including the Wingard Sensor GS2200, which was suggested to me by the installer when I called them back.

I'm looking for any insight into this and any suggestions. Thank you very much!

Sometimes it helps if you have the over-the-air antenna directly into your TV's input rather than going through the Dish receiver then into your TV. Of course you wouldn't be able to record any HD locals that way, but you would eliminate the constant annoying yellow messages by Dish.

Also remember, the higher you mount the antenna the better. Unfortunately were you live (me too) there are a lot of BIG trees that seem to constantly interrupt the ability to maintain a stable OTA signal. In my case it was so bad that I went with Direct TV and canceled Dish for the simple fact they didn't provide HD locals and my OTA reliability was bothersome.....

kosar

11-29-07, 02:01 PM

Sometimes it helps if you have the over-the-air antenna directly into your TV's input rather than going through the Dish receiver then into your TV. Of course you wouldn't be able to record any HD locals that way, but you would eliminate the constant annoying yellow messages by Dish.

Also remember, the higher you mount the antenna the better. Unfortunately were you live (me too) there are a lot of BIG trees that seem to constantly interrupt the ability to maintain a stable OTA signal. In my case it was so bad that I went with Direct TV and canceled Dish for the simple fact they didn't provide HD locals and my OTA reliability was bothersome.....

Yeah, when I directly connect it to my TV, it is a lot better, but as you said, I can't record it. As far as the trees, all of my trees are behind me, and where I need to point the antenna is a clear shot.

I would've went with DirecTV, but the $199 up front for an HD DVR was bush-league, IMO.

HD MM

11-29-07, 02:15 PM

Yeah, when I directly connect it to my TV, it is a lot better, but as you said, I can't record it. As far as the trees, all of my trees are behind me, and where I need to point the antenna is a clear shot.

I would've went with DirecTV, but the $199 up front for an HD DVR was bush-league, IMO.

Sometimes it takes some sweet talking with the CSR's to get a deal. I got the HD DVR (HR20), HD receiver (H20) and a SD receiver all for an initial $199 out of pocket, however I also received two monthly credits of $10. One for 12 months and the other for 10 months equaling $220 in total credits. They also threw in 3 free months of free HBO, SHO and Starz.

TV21CHIEF

11-29-07, 02:19 PM

toby10

11-29-07, 03:09 PM

Ah, you and chief are 5.1. PLIIx isn't available as an option with a 5.1 setup. If you have 7.1, PLIIx eliminates the need to switch decoders between Pro Logic, Digital, and EX (manually or automatically) when the content changes between 2.0, 5.1, and/or 6.1.

Well, PLIIx is on my AVR and it's the one that pops up when it auto-detects a 2 ch surround in place of DD. My AVR knows I'm 5.1 as the other surround speaker options (presence, surround backs) are set to NONE in the OSM, yet it has only ever switched to PLIIx if it detects 2 ch surround.

EX is just, again, 2 additional surround speakers I think.

I don't believe the old PLII is even on my AVR as an option (but I'll check).

So, again, I let the AVR do the thinking. If it detects DD, DTS, PCM, MPCM, 2 ch stereo, 2 ch surround, it properly selects and decodes and displays and plays those formats, respectively.

toby10

11-29-07, 03:30 PM

Well, it will be an interesing experiment tonite to turn on 7 speakers even though I don't have them and see if I still get the audio clips. We'll see how smart you guys are. ;)

Smart? HA! Good thing you didn't ask us medical questions!

I don't see where activating 2 speakers that don't exist will eliminate audio drops across the other 5 speakers, but I guess it's worth a shot.

Now that we know your AVR is auto-detecting the audio, I'd suggest two tests:

1. Watch your shows as usual, see what is displayed by auto-detect on your AVR. When the commercial starts (or whenever the audio drops) look at the AVR screen and see if it switched formats (DD, PLII, etc..)

2. Set your AVR to manual (turn off auto-detect) and watch/listen through a couple of commercial cycles in both DD and PLII and see if audio drops again.

If it happens on #1 and not on #2 then your AVR may not be switching fast enough. But, as you indicated this only seems to happen on NBC, I still strongly suspect broadcast problems from the NBC affiliate where they are broadcasting a DD show and non-DD commercials. I often visually catch my AVR switching between audio formats for just this reason.

ajstan99

11-29-07, 03:41 PM

Well, PLIIx is on my AVR and it's the one that pops up when it auto-detects a 2 ch surround in place of DD. My AVR knows I'm 5.1 as the other surround speaker options (presence, surround backs) are set to NONE in the OSM, yet it has only ever switched to PLIIx if it detects 2 ch surround.
I stand corrected then. The Onkyo does not allow PLIIx with only 5 speakers - only PLII. What brand and model AVR do you have?

toby10

11-29-07, 03:52 PM

I stand corrected then. The Onkyo does not allow PLIIx with only 5 speakers - only PLII. What brand and model AVR do you have?

Yamaha RX-V2700. PLEASE do not think I was "correcting" you by any stretch! I was just explaining my system and how it works with auto-detect to better understand this stuff.

Believe me, I appreciate your input greatly. :)

ajstan99

11-29-07, 04:42 PM

Yamaha RX-V2700. PLEASE do not think I was "correcting" you by any stretch! I was just explaining my system and how it works with auto-detect to better understand this stuff.

Believe me, I appreciate your input greatly. :)

No worries, buddy. We're all here to help each other. :)

JJkizak

11-29-07, 05:10 PM

My system is 7.1 with a Denon AVR and when it is manually switched to PLII-c the rear two speakers shut off and the center channel comes alive.
JJK

TV21CHIEF

11-29-07, 05:35 PM

My system is 7.1 with a Denon AVR and when it is manually switched to PLII-c the rear two speakers shut off and the center channel comes alive.
JJK

Denons work great. I think the anaomoly is with my Onkyo, but I will try turning on the 7.1.

Also toby, it does the same thing with CBS. It's even more annoying for me with them because they're using the metadata the right way and going stereo/DD5.1 for thier own commercials. NBC tells me that is coming for them "soon" but for now it's fixed on DD5.1. Oh, and I AM the NBC affiliate. Of course my bitsttream is perfect. ;)

toby10

11-30-07, 07:44 AM

No worries, buddy. We're all here to help each other. :)

ajstan99, you were correct. While flipping through channels last night I stood right in front of the AVR as it auto-switched between DD & PL. The AVR front panel displays DD & PL (spelled out) in big letters that can be seen from across the room. To the left of the AVR panel, displayed as tiny icons, pops up the DD & PL symbols when each is activated. On some PL feeds a THIRD tiny symbol pops up. This third symbol, which I thought was PLIIx, actually says PCM. These symbols/icons are so small that I actually went out to my car to retrieve my glasses (I'm too stubborn to admit to myself that I require glasses for anything beyond driving).

So, as you stated ajstan99, the AVR should and does "know" if I have 5.1 or 7.1 and activate the appropriate PL or PLIIx respectively.

So now I'm curious, what is the difference between PL, PLII, PLIIx? If PL is 5.1 and the "x" is 7.1, what is the "II"? The AVR manual shows all three as seperate trademarks but has no explanation of the differences.

Thanks again.

p.s. Now that I have seen Dick Goddard with my glasses on, I had no idea he was *that* old! :eek:

hookbill

11-30-07, 08:25 AM

ajstan99, you were correct. While flipping through channels last night I stood right in front of the AVR as it auto-switched between DD & PL. The AVR front panel displays DD & PL (spelled out) in big letters that can be seen from across the room. To the left of the AVR panel, displayed as tiny icons, pops up the DD & PL symbols when each is activated. On some PL feeds a THIRD tiny symbol pops up. This third symbol, which I thought was PLIIx, actually says PCM. These symbols/icons are so small that I actually went out to my car to retrieve my glasses (I'm too stubborn to admit to myself that I require glasses for anything beyond driving).

So, as you stated ajstan99, the AVR should and does "know" if I have 5.1 or 7.1 and activate the appropriate PL or PLIIx respectively.

So now I'm curious, what is the difference between PL, PLII, PLIIx? If PL is 5.1 and the "x" is 7.1, what is the "II"? The AVR manual shows all three as seperate trademarks but has no explanation of the differences.

Thanks again.

p.s. Now that I have seen Dick Goddard with my glasses on, I had no idea he was *that* old! :eek:

PL = Pro Logic decodes 2 channel into 4.1

PLII= Reproduces 5.1 channel. Mine has a movie, game, and music.

PLIIx= IN MY EXPERIENCE on my sound system because I have only 5 speakers doesn't do a darn thing different then PLII. It's set up for 7 speakers. However if you do have 7 speakers this will decode Dolby 5.1 to discrete 7.1

In the manual that came with your receiver it should get into somewhat more technical terms. I also have several other settings. I also have NEO 6 which is suppose to reproduce DTS Cinema, and Music.

Info gathered from my Sony manual.

ajstan99

11-30-07, 09:32 AM

So now I'm curious, what is the difference between PL, PLII, PLIIx? If PL is 5.1 and the "x" is 7.1, what is the "II"? The AVR manual shows all three as seperate trademarks but has no explanation of the differences.

PLIIx is a significant decoding improvement over PLII and rolls up the functionality of Pro Logic II (2.0 source - 5.1 output), Dolby Digital (5.1 source - 5.1 output), and Dolby Digital EX (5.1 source - 6.1 output or 6.1 EX Source - 6.1 output), under one decoder that outputs 6.1 or 7.1, depending upon speaker configuration.

If I want to listen to a 5.1 source in 5.1, I could always switch to Dolby Digital, but never have.

When I didn't have PLIIx on my old receiver, my impression was that all Pro Logic formats were inferior and a compromise. I needed to see Dolby Digital or Dolby Digital EX on my receiver for "real" surround and good sound. When I got my new receiver, I shied away from using PLIIx for 5.1 encoded material, until I did some reading and testing and realized that, for me, PLIIx was the preferred decoder for all formats (DTS notwithstanding). In fact, I always wondered what the fuss was about WOIO not being 5.1. I always got great surround effects on CSI when they were 2.0. In fact, it was more irritating when they went 5.1 and the channel mix was out of whack.

Here are some links to Dolby's website that should be helpful:

Dolby Technology (see Surround Sound Expansion section 2/3 down the page)
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/tech_overview.aspx

Dolby Pro Logic IIx Overview
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/prologic_IIx.html

Dolby Pro Logic IIx FAQ
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/prologic_IIx_faq_1.html

hookbill

11-30-07, 09:46 AM

I always got great surround effects on CSI when they were 2.0. In fact, it was more irritating when they went 5.1 and the channel mix was out of whack.

You know everyone is entitled to their opinion and while I agree that CSI and other shows were OK with Dolby PLII, now that they have gone to Dolby 5.1 it is just unbelievably great. And for you to say differently, well, I don't think you quite understand what to do.

There is no way that PLII reproduces the direct sound effects that you get from Dolby 5.1, and all of CBS shows have great Dolby sound. A swoosh from back left speaker to front right speaker. What a rush. Can't get that from PLII, not even close.

In regards to WOIO I have found that I need to lower the back speakers down to -4dbs and it creates a perfect sound. Sometimes I have to raise the center speaker up 2db's. I have to make changes everytime I change a station to "correct" for different sound. Usually I raise the back speakers real high for WKYC, but not all shows. Some I can just leave it at 0.

Perhaps I have to make my adjustments because my back speakers are wireless and maybe some folks don't need to make adjustments.

BTW, I thought my explanations of the differences in PL settings was pretty clear. I don't see why a follow up was even needed.