I'm not old enough to spend the winters in Florida! (or wealthy enough!)

As has been pointed out, DirecTV doesn't black out the HD broadcasts, which is particularly nice this time of the year with all the weather bulletins.

On another subject:

DirecTV has reached an agreement to carry the PBS HD channels in the areas they offer local HD service. This is GREAT news for those of us unwilling to deal with TWC.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1088872&highlight=

I might be wrong, but I think he spends a chunk of the winter in Florida.

This game reminds me of a Browns game up here when I was visiting Florida, and the snow was just as bad. I listened to the Browns call via satellite radio, and the weather was in the 70's!

WEWS-DT newscasts suffers from a black-level problem. Every time there is a dark scene (especially the live outdoor scenes at night) the blacks posterize terribly. I can't believe they let this go out day after day without trying to fix it. It's as if the engineers think nothing is wrong or nobody is actually watching.

Last night there were two blaring examples: the 60th anniversary coverage where they showed old film of the early days at WEWS. Yes the film is old, but it really looked worse digitized. The second example was the counterfit Elmo story. The black background was a posterized mess.

It appears to me that this black level problem is caused by keying video on top of video. This affect is similar to when chroma key is used and a shadow is cast on the green screen causing a distortion of the "projected" video picture.

Does anybody else see this problem?

Michael, what do you mean by posterized? It isn't in the dictionary.

Michael, what do you mean by posterized? It isn't in the dictionary.

Posterized;adj When you put something on a poster it is posterized.:D

Michael, what do you mean by posterized? It isn't in the dictionary.
Maybe I'm not spelling it correctly, however I have heard that term used to describe the digital artifacts I see in the black level on WEWS news.

Instead of a smooth gradual black area, I see large blocks. It's as if the background disappears into various gray blocks. I wish I had a way to take a picture of what I see and post it here. It's quite annoying and has only been seen on Newschannel 5 ever since I first was able to watch the ATSC signal (in other words it was present when they were still SD as well as now in HD). No other channel has this problem on either OTA or satellite. I'm watching via an E* 921 in 480i via S Video to a 27" Sony Trinitron. ABC Network programming looks pristine, it's only the news that looks bad.

You've got the term right. I found a number of references using Google.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posterization

This one refers to photos, but the idea seems to be the same for any digital method.


Maybe I'm not spelling it correctly, however I have heard that term used to describe the digital artifacts I see in the black level on WEWS news.

Instead of a smooth gradual black area, I see large blocks. It's as if the background disappears into various gray blocks. I wish I had a way to take a picture of what I see and post it here. It's quite annoying and has only been seen on Newschannel 5 ever since I first was able to watch the ATSC signal (in other words it was present when they were still SD as well as now in HD). No other channel has this problem on either OTA or satellite. I'm watching via an E* 921 in 480i via S Video to a 27" Sony Trinitron. ABC Network programming looks pristine, it's only the news that looks bad.

So, who gets the PBS "NewsHour" in HD? Anyone? Anywhere in America? :D

It's nice to see the satellite folks sending HD PBS down the line, but at least locally, both affiliates just pass through the national PBS HD feed.

I'm not old enough to spend the winters in Florida! (or wealthy enough!)

Heh. I do believe at least one of our regulars here spends time in Florida in the winter.

you seem to be in the wrong forum, this is the TIme warner in cleveland hasnt added any hd in 2 years forum...

Whazzat? They've added TNT-HD, TBS-HD and others in recent times. Have another ginko-biloba, Stuart. It's good for the memory. ;)

Whazzat? They've added TNT-HD, TBS-HD and others in recent times. Have another ginko-biloba, Stuart. It's good for the memory. ;)

Ill give you TNT HD but TBS HD, I meant real HD channels that have HD programming :) ..over at satguys we find it funny but when a channel gets uplinked people always complain where is the HD programming, we as a society are NEVER satisfied and always want more.

Ill give you TNT HD but TBS HD, I meant real HD channels that have HD programming :) ..over at satguys we find it funny but when a channel gets uplinked people always complain where is the HD programming, we as a society are NEVER satisfied and always want more.

Give us a break!! When they say a HD channel is launching, that means there should be at leas SOME HD on it!!! TBS's Stretchovision Horror Channel hasn't shown any HD since the MLB in October. All of the movies and some of the sitcoms COULD be shown in REAL HD.

As for us here in NE Ohio, I would LOVE to see Time Warner drop TBS-HD from our line up. It's wasted bandwidth. Give us some real HD instead. I'd rather see WBNX-HD. According to WBNX (http://www.wbnx.com), the CW's prime time is 78% HD. Plus, I'd like to see WVIZ HD dumped and replaced with National Geographic HD or History or Discovery HD.

I'm not old enough to spend the winters in Florida! (or wealthy enough!)

As has been pointed out, DirecTV doesn't black out the HD broadcasts, which is particularly nice this time of the year with all the weather bulletins.

On another subject:

DirecTV has reached an agreement to carry the PBS HD channels in the areas they offer local HD service. This is GREAT news for those of us unwilling to deal with TWC.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1088872&highlight=

jtscherne:
May I ask where you got this info???

jtscherne:
May I ask where you got this info???

www.dbstalk.com

. Plus, I'd like to see WVIZ HD dumped and replaced with National Geographic HD or History or Discovery HD.

We do get Discovery HD. At least I do on my TW HD.:)

You can't dump TBS. We need that for baseball playoffs.

I would like to see the CW in HD. I love Smallville and Supernatural (some say teeny bopper, but hey I like it!). I'm also a big fan of FX original programming. That would be super in HD. I feel FX has some of the best original dramas, surpassing some of those that are on HBO.

I would also like to see USA and SCI-FI added in HD so we could watch their original shows as well.

So, who gets the PBS "NewsHour" in HD? Anyone? Anywhere in America? :D

It's nice to see the satellite folks sending HD PBS down the line, but at least locally, both affiliates just pass through the national PBS HD feed.

Heh. I do believe at least one of our regulars here spends time in Florida in the winter.

NewsHour is a national news program, so I am really struggling to find out why it would not be included in either WVIZ(25.1), WNEO(45.1) or WEAO(49.1)'s digital HD lineup!? And while I am excited about D*'s announcement to carry PBS-HD in the near future, it appears as long as the local affiliates don't bump the current analog transmission of Jim Lehrer to their digital lineup, we will still not be getting it in HD! Oh, well. At least we can all enjoy another "Christmas with the Mormon Choir" in HD! :eek:

NewsHour is a national news program, so I am really struggling to find out why it would not be included in either WVIZ(25.1), WNEO(45.1) or WEAO(49.1)'s digital HD lineup!? And while I am excited about D*'s announcement to carry PBS-HD in the near future, it appears as long as the local affiliates don't bump the current analog transmission of Jim Lehrer to their digital lineup, we will still not be getting it in HD! Oh, well. At least we can all enjoy another "Christmas with the Mormon Choir" in HD! :eek:

I'm sure your aware that the programming on WVIZHD does not mirror the programming on WVIZ. It's like watching seperate channels.

Discovery does the same thing.

I'm sure your aware that the programming on WVIZHD does not mirror the programming on WVIZ. It's like watching seperate channels.

Discovery does the same thing.

Yes I am aware of this. However my point was that since NewsHour is now being actively produced in HD, it would make much sense to bump it to the HD channel.

So, who gets the PBS "NewsHour" in HD? Anyone? Anywhere in America? :D

It's nice to see the satellite folks sending HD PBS down the line, but at least locally, both affiliates just pass through the national PBS HD feed.



Heh. I do believe at least one of our regulars here spends time in Florida in the winter.

I read somewhere that PBS will begin to add primetime HD one evening at a time to the PBS HD channel. Eventually (by this time next year) they will be feeding exactly as the commercial networks and the PBS HD channel will become the "main" channel. It is a matter of building out infrastructure to do so... and public broadcasting doesn't have the deep pockets that the commercial stations have. As far as the NewsHour... it makes no sense to me why it wouldn't be integrated into the HD channel.

LOVE[/B] to see Time Warner drop TBS-HD from our line up. It's wasted bandwidth. Give us some real HD instead. I'd rather see WBNX-HD. According to WBNX (http://www.wbnx.com), the CW's prime time is 78% HD. Plus, I'd like to see WVIZ HD dumped and replaced with National Geographic HD or History or Discovery HD.

TW in the Mentor area dropped the TBSHD channel a few weeks after the baseball playoffs were through. I'm not sure exactly when it happend but I noticed it gone when I returned form a week in Florida early November. Yes I do go to Floriday occasionally. I'd love to spend the month of January or February there someday.
Ray

We do get Discovery HD. At least I do on my TW HD.:)



I think you are getting Discovery HD Theater channel on TW. There is a new Discovery Channel HD(DirecTV carries it) that is the mirror of the non-HD Discovery Channel. Discovery HD Theater has completely different programming from the Discovery Channel.

Give us a break!! When they say a HD channel is launching, that means there should be at leas SOME HD on it!!! TBS's Stretchovision Horror Channel hasn't shown any HD since the MLB in October. All of the movies and some of the sitcoms COULD be shown in REAL HD.

As for us here in NE Ohio, I would LOVE to see Time Warner drop TBS-HD from our line up. It's wasted bandwidth. Give us some real HD instead. I'd rather see WBNX-HD. According to WBNX (http://www.wbnx.com), the CW's prime time is 78% HD. Plus, I'd like to see WVIZ HD dumped and replaced with National Geographic HD or History or Discovery HD.

Hey I hope you dont think I was saying TBS hd was a real HD channel, because to me it isnt...I agree with you 100%...also I wish TWCNEO would get their butts in gear, Time warner as a whole actually. Let me point this out to you( just talking here) Agressive marketing is the name of the game today. Look at Directv and the success it had, two years ago they said we are going to launch 3 satellites and it will carry 1500 HD locals, and whatever 150 insane amount of HD nationals. Everyone laughed, but they kept it up, had commercials of tv's watching the satellite launches saying it was going to change the way you watch tv. Well here we are two years later and guess what...its a success, Directv is the HD leader, actually Scott G. wrote a article that said they were the HD leader when they made the announcement as everyone was "keeping up" with Directv at that point, even though Directv had only 10 HD stations I believe. But they had a plan, FIos has a plan and will talk about it, BUT Where is Time warner or Dish in all of this? nowhere...TIme warner dosent even have markets together, I realize they are all different systems, but arent you pissed that San antonio has all these stations and here you sit with navagaitor software that is buggy as hell (well Hookbill does have the spokesman deal worked with tivo so he is happy there :) ) and you have nothing added, and no one talking about the future but to say SDV will bring more HD and regualer channels (to certain markets, not all markets are the same). and I know not everyone cares about it, but Time warner dosent even talk to NFL network or Big Ten network, just makes commercial calling them greedy! But dont worry I am in the same boat as you DIsh has not said one word about the future, well okay I lied they did say they are launching two satellites that will hold 200 HD channels and 1500 Local HD channels, but since then we havent heard a peep (that was a year ago!). All we hear is They are being sold, or plans are changing, even their Ceo I believe dosent know whats going on! I say all that to say this, these companies need to get their head in the game, because they are falling behind, Time warner is down, Dish is down. Both companies have great products, its just too bad they cant organize them or "sell" them to the public.

Also I do have to say this, I realize that HD is still somewhat small percantage of owners, and to dish its probably maybe 10-15% (could be wrong) and to Time warner it might be higher (30-40%? does anyone know) but HD is becoming main stream and its time to captialize now and put your name in the Hat, because it might be too late 2 years from now if you are just then adding HD channels, or figuiring out cable cards, or getting satellite launced as your competitors are kicking dirt in your face with their commercials, and there are alot more choices for Tv Money then their was 5-10 years ago (Directv, DIsh, Time warner, ATT, even some IPTV services, and FTA)

Also I have been following what you have been writing in the navaigator section with your updates, as I am very interested in hearing how its developing, please dont stop updating that thread with your thoughts and experiences I do enjoy it!

I read somewhere that PBS will begin to add primetime HD one evening at a time to the PBS HD channel. Eventually (by this time next year) they will be feeding exactly as the commercial networks and the PBS HD channel will become the "main" channel. It is a matter of building out infrastructure to do so... and public broadcasting doesn't have the deep pockets that the commercial stations have. As far as the NewsHour... it makes no sense to me why it wouldn't be integrated into the HD channel.

From Broadcast Engineering website:
The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer” aired in HD for the first time Monday, signaling a major step for WETA and PBS and the on-time completion of a key phase in the comprehensive HD upgrade of the WETA production center.

The new HD facility at WETA, located just outside Washington, D.C., was designed, planned and integrated by Communications Engineering (CEI) of Newington, VA.

The project, featuring new HD control rooms and edit suites, began in the second quarter of this year with a target date of Dec. 17 for the first live HD broadcast of “NewsHour.” “NewsHour,” seen five nights a week on more than 315 PBS stations across the country, is the first live, regularly scheduled PBS program to be broadcast in HD.

Careful planning and coordination with WETA allowed CEI to complete this phase of an extensive upgrade for the WETA production center, as well as conduct testing and training, in time for the first scheduled live broadcast.

In addition to the regular evening broadcast, the “NewsHour” staff and PBS will produce about 24 hours of live, HD primetime coverage of the 2008 Democratic National Convention from Denver (Aug. 25-28) and the Republican National Convention from St. Paul, MN (Sept. 1-4).

The state-of-the-art production facility includes a new HD video control room, featuring a Sony MVS8000A switcher; a new digital audio control room featuring an SSL C100 5.1 surround-sound console; six new Sony HDC1000LW HD studio cameras; Fujinon lenses; three upgraded Avid HD edit suites; an expanded Avid Unity storage system; four Sony XDCAM HD field camera systems; two Sony XDCAM HD studio decks; expanded Thomson Grass Valley HD routers; a BARCO multiple rear-projection display wall; and QC/QA workstations

Today I noticed that the former CSPAN2 analog channel(channel 70 in Akron) no longer shows the "CSPAN has moved" message. The channel still comes in on both of my Passport boxes and the screen just shows color bars. Also channels 17, 34, 70 and 96 have color bars on the screen. Four analog channels eliminated, sounds like enough bandwidth to add another HD channel or two. Maybe a certain local HD station? Then Time Warner could say they carry all the local HD channels.

As for TBS, it should be a part-time channel, like FSN Ohio, that only broadcasts when a sports event is on in HD. Speaking of "split channels", the past could be the future(for now). Time Warner could have a few split channels for HD. Show important networks at night like USA and FX and show otehr networks on the day.

I think you are getting Discovery HD Theater channel on TW. There is a new Discovery Channel HD(DirecTV carries it) that is the mirror of the non-HD Discovery Channel. Discovery HD Theater has completely different programming from the Discovery Channel.

Oh. So that's why they are completely different.

But they do show some of the Discovery Channels programs don't they? I could have sworn I've seen some familiar titles.

Oh. So that's why they are completely different.

But they do show some of the Discovery Channels programs don't they? I could have sworn I've seen some familiar titles.

They do run some of the Discovery Channel shows on Disc HD Theater, but I haven't decided if there's a pattern to it or if they just decide to drop an episode of American Chopper in when they feel like it...

Sure would be nice to get Discovery HD on TWC - would be fun to see Mike Rowe covered in poo in glorious HD. :D

They do run some of the Discovery Channel shows on Disc HD Theater, but I haven't decided if there's a pattern to it or if they just decide to drop an episode of American Chopper in when they feel like it...

Sure would be nice to get Discovery HD on TWC - would be fun to see Mike Rowe covered in poo in glorious HD. :D

Yeah, Mike Rowe!! That always irritates me when I see on Discovery 54 [Also Available in HD] on the bottom of the screen. I usually announce out loud, "NOT ON TIME WARNER CABLE!!" "POWER OF YOU, MY A--!"

Also, an update on CSPAN2 analog, channel 70 is now completely gone. I can only hope something is coming ;)

you seem to be in the wrong forum, this is the TIme warner in cleveland hasnt added any hd in 2 years forum...we dont want to hear about your wonderful HD :) actually that is awesome that they have added those, I have dish network and they have quite a few HD channels but for some reason (dish launches delayed I believe) have totally stopped adding HD..I am hoping Digiblurs uplink report at satguys brings me better news, but again congrats thats a pretty darn good lineup!

I hate to break the news to TW folks, but Cox Cleveland has gone on an HD channel adding spree.

With smaller providers like Armstrong and Cox adding more HD channels, I wonder if it's a response to DirecTV's recent HD additions. I was also discussing with my friends who are DirecTV subscribers how much more bandwidth would be available if they didn't have to "double up" on HD/SD channels.

Cox Cleveland HDLineup as of 12/21:

PBS
WKYC
WOIO
WEWS
WUAB
WJW
TNT
Universal
NFL Network
FSN
MTV
TBS
MOJO (INHD)
History
A&E
ESPN 1&2
National Geographic
Discovery HD Theater
TV Food Network
Home & Garden HGTV
Sports Time Ohio
HBO
Cinemax
Showtime
Starz

and an HD OnDemand channel

Also, an update on CSPAN2 analog, channel 70 is now completely gone. I can only hope something is coming ;)

Well, the moved CSPAN2 to channel 186. They are telling analog people, you want it? Pay for a digital box. Don't expect them to replace anything they move from analog to digital. Expect more of it. Analog takes more bandwith and they are probably trying to reduce bandwith to compete by adding more HD--eventually--well, hopefully.:rolleyes:

I hate to break the news to TW folks, but Cox Cleveland has gone on an HD channel adding spree.

With smaller providers like Armstrong and Cox adding more HD channels, I wonder if it's a response to DirecTV's recent HD additions. I was also discussing with my friends who are DirecTV subscribers how much more bandwidth would be available if they didn't have to "double up" on HD/SD channels.

Cox Cleveland HDLineup as of 12/21:

PBS
WKYC
WOIO
WEWS
WUAB
WJW
TNT
Universal
NFL Network
FSN
MTV
TBS
MOJO (INHD)
History
A&E
ESPN 1&2
National Geographic
Discovery HD Theater
TV Food Network
Home & Garden HGTV
Sports Time Ohio
HBO
Cinemax
Showtime
Starz

and an HD OnDemand channel

When you make a long list like that it really makes it worst then it appears. I'm not defending TW but here's what they really are offering that TW doesn't have:

FSN
MTV
NFL Network
History
A&E
National Geographic
Home & Garden HGTV
TV Food Network

Out of all of these channels there are 2 I might look at. A&E for 48 Hours, but I'll bet that isn't filmed in HD. And History channel for WW2 stuff, which probably won't be in HD either. YMMV:)

I won't feel bad unless I see USA, FX, or SCI FI is added.

Actually, FSN Ohio has nothing in HD other than the Cavs, so you already get that too.

National Geographic has a lot of great HD content, but History and A&E, have long stretches of SD programming at this point.

Also, I'm not sure what MTV they added, but the regular MTV is available in HD, but with no HD programming. However, there's a separate HD channel (MHD) that features content from MTV, VH1, and CMT. It is pretty much all HD and features some good concerts.

When you make a long list like that it really makes it worst then it appears. I'm not defending TW but here's what they really are offering that TW doesn't have:

FSN
MTV
NFL Network
History
A&E
National Geographic
Home & Garden HGTV
TV Food Network

Out of all of these channels there are 2 I might look at. A&E for 48 Hours, but I'll bet that isn't filmed in HD. And History channel for WW2 stuff, which probably won't be in HD either. YMMV:)

I won't feel bad unless I see USA, FX, or SCI FI is added.

......Home & Garden HGTV
TV Food Network

Out of all of these channels there are 2 I might look at. A&E for 48 Hours, but I'll bet that isn't filmed in HD. And History channel for WW2 stuff, which probably won't be in HD either. YMMV:)

I won't feel bad unless I see USA, FX, or SCI FI is added.

You don't know what you are missing! Tomatoes and zucchini in HD is simply MIND BLOWING!

You don't know what you are missing! Tomatoes and zucchini in HD is simply MIND BLOWING!

ummmm...I've seen them at this place called the grocery store. Even picked them up and looked at them. Your telling me it's better in HD?:confused:;)

ummmm...I've seen them at this place called the grocery store. Even picked them up and looked at them. Your telling me it's better in HD?:confused:;)

Shame on you! Of course Tomatoes are better in HD! Specifically Giada and Tomatoes! ;)

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/giada-2-0807.jpg

Actually, FSN Ohio has nothing in HD other than the Cavs, so you already get that too.

National Geographic has a lot of great HD content, but History and A&E, have long stretches of SD programming at this point.

Also, I'm not sure what MTV they added, but the regular MTV is available in HD, but with no HD programming. However, there's a separate HD channel (MHD) that features content from MTV, VH1, and CMT. It is pretty much all HD and features some good concerts.

FSN and STO are a waste of bandwidth in HD, as is TBS.

They should just go to a combined specials channel, that when a game is on, they pop up on that HD channel.

As far as MTV goes, Cox offers the MHD channel with the MTV networks. Their content is limited, with many concerts being repeated.

When you make a long list like that it really makes it worst then it appears. I'm not defending TW but here's what they really are offering that TW doesn't have:

FSN
MTV
NFL Network
History
A&E
National Geographic
Home & Garden HGTV
TV Food Network

Out of all of these channels there are 2 I might look at. A&E for 48 Hours, but I'll bet that isn't filmed in HD. And History channel for WW2 stuff, which probably won't be in HD either. YMMV:)

I won't feel bad unless I see USA, FX, or SCI FI is added.


I'm not defending Cox or bashing TW. Just giving folks an idea of what other providers are doing. Really aside from moving, there's very little to no choice in cable.

Shame on you! Of course Tomatoes are better in HD! Specifically Giada and Tomatoes! ;)


HAHAHAHA! :D

I wonder what kind of rules they have regarding the tomato "pool"? And I can't seem to find the zucchinni.
JJK

...it's not that big of a deal to have disk utilities set to automatically run after a specified period of activity, including defrag and recovery/remapping around bad clusters on a disk.

This could support (although not entirely prove) the hypothesis that the skips are a disk read issue, and can be self-correcting. Moving 5-10GB files on a half-full 160GB HDD is a time-intensive task, and could likely take several evenings to resolve.

Or...it could all be false hope, the 8300HDC and its software are terrible, and I'll soon be posting about the dropouts returning.
Just wanted to post a quick follow-up regarding the audio drop-outs on the 8300HDC. I've kept my used space below 65%, and have had less than a handful of audio drop-outs since 12/3 - even when playing back recordings that were captured simultaneously. In all other aspects, it's easy to use and does what I expect it to do.

Now I see what all the fuss is about with DVRs. It's great having HD movies and programs on-hand whenever I'm ready, not to mention controlling my own slo-mo instant replays while watching a game.

Actually, FSN Ohio has nothing in HD other than the Cavs, so you already get that too.

So far from what I have seen, FSN has the Cavs, Blue Jackets, and a number of College Football games in HD.

FSN and STO are a waste of bandwidth in HD, as is TBS.

They should just go to a combined specials channel, that when a game is on, they pop up on that HD channel.

As far as MTV goes, Cox offers the MHD channel with the MTV networks. Their content is limited, with many concerts being repeated.

STO uses no bandwidth on Cox when there is no HD programming, the channel is off.

TBS certainly wasn't a waste of bandwidth during the playoffs, and it isn't Cox' fault they can't show anything in HD.

Plus if there was a combined specials channel, you would have people complaining when there was a conflict between the Indians and Cavs.

It works pretty well the way it is now.

So, who gets the PBS "NewsHour" in HD? Anyone? Anywhere in America? :D

It's nice to see the satellite folks sending HD PBS down the line, but at least locally, both affiliates just pass through the national PBS HD feed.
Ahm. The "HD PBS" feed on satellite is the exact same feed that WNEO/WEAO & WVIZ carry on their HD -1 channel. So when Newshour goes HD there is only one place in PBS land where that feed will be sent: PBS HD!

Weather you get it from WNEO DT-1, WVIZ DT-1, or DirecTV, it will be there at the same time on all 3 in HD. the only "local content" on the HD feeds of WNEO & WVIZ are the "bugs" ID'ing the station. BTW it was the lack of this bug that kept PBS HD off WNEO/WEAO for all that time.

Well, the moved CSPAN2 to channel 186. They are telling analog people, you want it? Pay for a digital box. Don't expect them to replace anything they move from analog to digital. Expect more of it. Analog takes more bandwith and they are probably trying to reduce bandwith to compete by adding more HD--eventually--well, hopefully.:rolleyes:

That's what I was hoping. With ESPN Classic and CSPAN2 moved to digital, that should be some bandwidth freed up and room for more HD. I'm still hoping WBNX, but I doubt it.

That's what I was hoping. With ESPN Classic and CSPAN2 moved to digital, that should be some bandwidth freed up and room for more HD. I'm still hoping WBNX, but I doubt it.

TW is nortoriously tight but there is really no valid explanation as to why they haven't delivered this channel to us. A huge thumbs down to TW for that!

I agree TW is getting stomped by everyone around the Cleveland area, even these smaller cable providers. For such a big company, they certainly are disappointing! They need more competition in existing markets from other cable companies and that would end their strong hold on the cable market.

Hey guys, newb to the HD world here, and I'm in the market for an HDTV coupled with either Cox Cable +HD content or the two Dish providers +HD content. From what I could gather, Dish Network seems my best bet. Nice selection of HD channels plus it's a hair cheaper than DirecTV and a lot cheaper than what Cox offers in the HD realm. What I'm asking is if anyone has ANY of these 3 services from the Cleveland area (Parma to be exact)? (Cox HD/ Dish HD/ or DirecTV HD).
1) Are you happy with the quality of feed/HD channels? Both audio and video? I'm not too worried about actual HD channel selection, thats more personal preference. How about SD content?
2)For you satellite owners, do you experience dropouts in rain/thunder/snow?? How long?
3) For both users, is HD content variable? Meaning that if a provider claims it has channels x and y in HD, are they ALWAYS shown in HD or to they switch back and forth between feeds (say only HD for primetime shows?). Is this different in satellite vs. cable providers?
4) Whats the deal with local channels + satellite? Are they always in HD or only during primetime telecasts? Does the satellite provider have to install an extra satellite to capture the locals?

Kind of a lot of questions I know, but I'm new to the HD realm and its been a complete hassle trying to talk to the providers directly about this, and if I ask at smaller electronic stores they seem to be bias towards cable over satellite.

Channel 5's Joe Pagonakis did a story on Time Warner today about a elderly lady not getting a rebate from Time Warner. Anyways, Joe said they are a better Business Burea member, yet they've gotten over 300 complaints over the last three years and half of which have been this year alone.

I agree TW is getting stomped by everyone around the Cleveland area, even these smaller cable providers. For such a big company, they certainly are disappointing! They need more competition in existing markets from other cable companies and that would end their strong hold on the cable market.

Again I have to say first I am not a great fan of any cable company, but I do believe that the challenge TW is dealing with in our area is huge. First they got both Adelphia and Comcast and they already had some of their own cable in the area. Now I have no idea what Comcast was like but I think it is safe to say that the channel lineups were all uniform. Adelphia on the other hand took all their bought up small mom and pop cable companies and continued to allow them to have the same channels they had previously. So TW's challenge is to figure out a way to create a local channel line up that covers TW NEO. This is not easy to do and one of the reasons why are the different shops that techs and management are coming from. Here's an example: When TW first took over I was serviced by Macedonia even though I was in the Cleveland Suburb area. Those techs were highly trained, motivated, and I know from my experience with the S3 that their Supervisor was anxious to see an install on my S3.

A couple of weeks later and I get switched to the Concord base. I was warned by the supervisor of the Macedonia office that these guys think differently then his crew and he was absolutely right. It appears that Adelphia allowed all these shops to continue with the same previous management and did nothing to create a "standard of service."

So not only do they have to deal with reorganizing the lineup, they have to somehow get all these people, and don't forget the Comcast group, all on the same page and eventually get the channels switched over to one line up.

I know one tech told me it was going to be done in June, however he didn't tell me what year. I assumed he met 2007 but obviously either he was dead wrong (likely) or my assumption was incorrect.

So as it stands right now those of us with TW are not going to get the same service as we see happening around us. If I hadn't spent so much money on my S3 and had a clean line of sight to the South, I would have picked D* two years ago.

Things will get better, eventually. But it will take time.

Hey guys, newb to the HD world here, and I'm in the market for an HDTV coupled with either Cox Cable +HD content or the two Dish providers +HD content. From what I could gather, Dish Network seems my best bet. Nice selection of HD channels plus it's a hair cheaper than DirecTV and a lot cheaper than what Cox offers in the HD realm. What I'm asking is if anyone has ANY of these 3 services from the Cleveland area (Parma to be exact)? (Cox HD/ Dish HD/ or DirecTV HD).
1) Are you happy with the quality of feed/HD channels? Both audio and video? I'm not too worried about actual HD channel selection, thats more personal preference. How about SD content?
2)For you satellite owners, do you experience dropouts in rain/thunder/snow?? How long?
3) For both users, is HD content variable? Meaning that if a provider claims it has channels x and y in HD, are they ALWAYS shown in HD or to they switch back and forth between feeds (say only HD for primetime shows?). Is this different in satellite vs. cable providers?

4) Whats the deal with local channels + satellite? Are they always in HD or only during primetime telecasts? Does the satellite provider have to install an extra satellite to capture the locals?

Kind of a lot of questions I know, but I'm new to the HD realm and its been a complete hassle trying to talk to the providers directly about this, and if I ask at smaller electronic stores they seem to be bias towards cable over satellite.

I'd go with D*. They have a better DVR then Cox and more HD stations.

Generally most local network prime time shows are in HD and Dolby 5.1. Matter of fact D* and Cox both have a great deal of HD channels but many actually do not have a great deal of HD content.

As a previous satellite user (D*) Snow and rain fall are not that big of a deal.

D* provides everything in digital so you always have a great picture. I don't know how much Cox delivers but they may still have some analog channels.

Hey guys, newb to the HD world here, and I'm in the market for an HDTV coupled with either Cox Cable +HD content or the two Dish providers +HD content. From what I could gather, Dish Network seems my best bet. Nice selection of HD channels plus it's a hair cheaper than DirecTV and a lot cheaper than what Cox offers in the HD realm. What I'm asking is if anyone has ANY of these 3 services from the Cleveland area (Parma to be exact)? (Cox HD/ Dish HD/ or DirecTV HD).
1) Are you happy with the quality of feed/HD channels? Both audio and video? I'm not too worried about actual HD channel selection, thats more personal preference. How about SD content?
2)For you satellite owners, do you experience dropouts in rain/thunder/snow?? How long?
3) For both users, is HD content variable? Meaning that if a provider claims it has channels x and y in HD, are they ALWAYS shown in HD or to they switch back and forth between feeds (say only HD for primetime shows?). Is this different in satellite vs. cable providers?
4) Whats the deal with local channels + satellite? Are they always in HD or only during primetime telecasts? Does the satellite provider have to install an extra satellite to capture the locals?

Kind of a lot of questions I know, but I'm new to the HD realm and its been a complete hassle trying to talk to the providers directly about this, and if I ask at smaller electronic stores they seem to be bias towards cable over satellite.

I would check out COX. Since it's not Time Warner, I'd check out what kind of DVR they have. If they have the 8300HD with Passport, that's good. The 8300HD with Passport software is the BEST DVR on the market(IMO). Also see what kind of line up they have.
-Do they have most or all local HD channels? Satellite does not, but since they have more capacity, they may soon.
-How many national HD channels does COX have? D* has about 75.

I wouldn't go with Dish. I don't know much about them, but they seem like D*'s cheaper, wimpy brother. I have heard Dish users that love it, but I'm not into new things.

I've had D* a few years back and it can be tricky in the snow. During a snow storm, my TV was pixelating continuously. It also goes out in the rain and once when it was windy. However, I've also heard that my problems could be because the dish wasn't positioned right. I've heard some D* users that don't have it go out at all. That's kinda scared me away from satellite.

I would try cable first. Since I assume you already have cable, an upgrade to HD cable is free. Try it out first. If you're not happy, consider D*. The one downside of satellite is the contract, you're stuck for a year. In my experience, I couldn't wait for the year to be up!

Thanks for the replies...I had been leaning toward going with one of the dishes over Cox anyway, but a recent trip to one of the small electronics stores had me question some of my research. I had been worried with rain and snow, but I got conflicting reports. One person I know has Dish and loves it, never has reception problems, and another with D* says he gets rainouts here and there. I also heard that it could be possible that D* puts more compression on their channels vs. others? Maybe I didn't read it right but thats what other have been hinting at. D* and BB have a great deal for 300 bones off a TV which is very enticing, but come with a 2 year agreement. I also read that Dish offers an 18month commitment, but if you don't want the commitment, you get the same package prices but fork over an activation fee. That might be my best bet as I can go month to month and see if I like it. I still want as good a SD picture as possible, and cheap monthly pricing. Satellite is cheaper but with a little more risk factors involved. An employee at a small shop around here was making it seem that while HD content will both be good, the SD feeds will be poorer over the satellite. Maybe he's getting a cut from Cox, who knows. I know it will also come down to what TV I get, and I'm trying to find a good 40incher that can handle SD content well but can't really find much info on that..

3) For both users, is HD content variable? Meaning that if a provider claims it has channels x and y in HD, are they ALWAYS shown in HD or to they switch back and forth between feeds (say only HD for primetime shows?). Is this different in satellite vs. cable providers?

Most of the current national HD cable networks DO NOT broadcast in true HD. What you usually get is stretchovision, which means the standard 4:3 picture is stretched to fill the screen. That creates a terrible viewing experience.


Check this out, it's about aspect ratios and widescreen:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/aspectratios/widescreenorama.html



4) Whats the deal with local channels + satellite? Are they always in HD or only during primetime telecasts? Does the satellite provider have to install an extra satellite to capture the locals?

Local channels only broadcast in HD for primetime and local news. WKYC, WEW and WJW all do HD local news. Also, some shows like Wheel and Jeopardy are broadcast in HD. Everything not in HD is show in 4:3 with black sidebars.

Damn....JUST realized that both satellite providers aren't offering my locals in HD. They're offering the locals, but only in SD. I'm guessing I'd have to nab an OTA antenna if I wanted to catch those in HD. Now I'm gonna have to rethink everything again...maybe the extra cash for Cox will be worth it.

I hate to break the news to TW folks, but Cox Cleveland has gone on an HD channel adding spree.

With smaller providers like Armstrong and Cox adding more HD channels, I wonder if it's a response to DirecTV's recent HD additions. I was also discussing with my friends who are DirecTV subscribers how much more bandwidth would be available if they didn't have to "double up" on HD/SD channels.

Cox Cleveland HDLineup as of 12/21:

PBS
WKYC
WOIO
WEWS
WUAB
WJW
TNT
Universal
NFL Network
FSN
MTV
TBS
MOJO (INHD)
History
A&E
ESPN 1&2
National Geographic
Discovery HD Theater
TV Food Network
Home & Garden HGTV
Sports Time Ohio
HBO
Cinemax
Showtime
Starz

and an HD OnDemand channel

Actually not that impressive. Wide Open West has all those channels except:

PBS
ESPN2
History
NatGeo
Universal
MTV

WOW has Wealth, HDNet, HDNet Movies.

With that said, I dumped WOW a couple weeks ago and have gone with D* for all my HD needs. I just didn't see WOW (or TWC) making any great leaps anytime soon to offer the HD channels D* added in a month.

Damn....JUST realized that both satellite providers aren't offering my locals in HD. They're offering the locals, but only in SD. I'm guessing I'd have to nab an OTA antenna if I wanted to catch those in HD. Now I'm gonna have to rethink everything again...maybe the extra cash for Cox will be worth it.

Not true. DirecTV offers ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX Cleveland locals in HD with the MPEG4 equipment and the 5-LNB dish (which is what you should be getting anyway). PBS HD to come in early 2008. They have another satellite going up in a couple months that will add capacity for more HD locals.

Damn....JUST realized that both satellite providers aren't offering my locals in HD. They're offering the locals, but only in SD. I'm guessing I'd have to nab an OTA antenna if I wanted to catch those in HD. Now I'm gonna have to rethink everything again...maybe the extra cash for Cox will be worth it.

D* isn't doing HD locals for Cleveland? I knew E*(Dish) didn't, but I thought D* had jsut the "big four".

But I would definately look into cable first and try HD cable before buying any satellite equipment. COX has many national channels Time Warner doesn't.

http://www.cox.com/cleveland/cable/channel-lineup.asp

http://www.cox.com/cleveland/cable/channel-lineup-digital.asp

It also looks like COX has a really good DVR. In their demo, I see Passport Echo menus. Passport Echo is a fantastic DVR, the best you can get.

http://www.cox.com/cleveland/cable/dvr/dvr_demo.asp

Channel 5's Joe Pagonakis did a story on Time Warner today about a elderly lady not getting a rebate from Time Warner. Anyways, Joe said they are a better Business Burea member, yet they've gotten over 300 complaints over the last three years and half of which have been this year alone.

I saw Joe Pack of napkins report too. I hope the Troubleshooters are flooded with complainst if Time Warner decides to deploy Navigator in NE Ohio. I can only imagine how busy they would be.

Not true. DirecTV offers ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX Cleveland locals in HD with the MPEG4 equipment and the 5-LNB dish (which is what you should be getting anyway). PBS HD to come in early 2008. They have another satellite going up in a couple months that will add capacity for more HD locals.

Could have fooled me. I'm still getting confused here and there and I've been trying to compare all these options for the past few days lol. Well thats a plus for D*. The up front cost is a bit more than Dish, but still a bit less than Cox, even considering they charge another fee if I want std. cable in another room. I know BB and CC are offering 300 bones off an HDTV if you sign up for D*. That's really enticing to me, but the only thing that scares me about it is signal quality during rain/thunder/snowstorms and a 2 yr agreement. With the nasty weather around these waters I'd hate to get unlucky with signal quality/HD quality and have to deal with it for 2 years. The good thing about Cox is that I pretty much know what I'm getting and there generally won't be any loss of feed. The bad is that it jumps up in price a bit after the promo period...ahhh decisions decisions....

I've had both Dish and Directv and I'll state that I had more weather dropouts with Dish than Directv, but your mileage may vary. I have never had a dropout during a snowstorm with either and only the heaviest of rain has caused a dropout otherwise.

Bottom line is, if you want locals and you don't want to use an over the air antenna, Directv is your only choice, satellite-wise. In addition, they have the largest amount of HD programming of anyone. While it's true that many of the newer HD national channels aren't broadcasting much HD content yet, they're already on the system (and the lack of HD programming isn't Directv's fault anyway).

You might want to consider calling the satellite company directly, rather than going through a store, unless you don't have an HD set yet and you need the $300 off. You might be able to work out a better deal with little or no upfront costs.

Could have fooled me. I'm still getting confused here and there and I've been trying to compare all these options for the past few days lol. Well thats a plus for D*. The up front cost is a bit more than Dish, but still a bit less than Cox, even considering they charge another fee if I want std. cable in another room. I know BB and CC are offering 300 bones off an HDTV if you sign up for D*. That's really enticing to me, but the only thing that scares me about it is signal quality during rain/thunder/snowstorms and a 2 yr agreement. With the nasty weather around these waters I'd hate to get unlucky with signal quality/HD quality and have to deal with it for 2 years. The good thing about Cox is that I pretty much know what I'm getting and there generally won't be any loss of feed. The bad is that it jumps up in price a bit after the promo period...ahhh decisions decisions....

Damn....JUST realized that both satellite providers aren't offering my locals in HD. They're offering the locals, but only in SD. I'm guessing I'd have to nab an OTA antenna if I wanted to catch those in HD. Now I'm gonna have to rethink everything again...maybe the extra cash for Cox will be worth it.

drummersteve:

Dish(E*) does NOT provide locals in HD (digital). Direct TV (D*) DOES provide locals in HD (digital).
Sorry....a pet peeve of mine....it's gotta be digital before it can be HD!!!!!!

I will also tell you that D* does locals in HD. If you've never used a DVR before then I would highly recommend going with D* before going with cabel (D* meaning Direct TV).

For one thing it is cheaper. I've heard good things about their DVR. The only thing that might be a negative is if you have to use a land line phone but I think the new DVR gets around that.

If you do go with cable ask if they use Switched Digital Video. I don't believe that Cox offers the SA 8300, I think they offer the Moto box. But I also believe that Cox is on the list to receive TiVo software.:) That is good news for you if they go that route because TiVo blows everything else out of the water.

Okay if I can throw my two cents in here. First off Directv and Dish network IF not aligned properly will go out in the rain, If aligned properly it takes a really good storm to knock my satellite out! and if it does go out it only goes out for maybe 30 seconds at the most for me. I have had satellite for 4 years and have heard the comments you guys have said about satellite going out in the weather and to be honest thats generally false (again if your satellite is aligned it will take a dozy of storm to go out). Now I said all that to say this, Directv does use a ka band satellite (the new ones they are launching in the 99 degree position and the 103 degree position) which are a little more touchy, meaing in THEORY they could go out in the rain easier. But Dish has alos cranked up the signal on these a bit, and made sure that they sent out training videos to get the techs to line them up right (if you search I think you can find a training video at solidsignal.com) anyways with what directv has done to their satellite to make sure its stronger in the KA signal area, I havent heard of complaints. Now On to more things, Directv does in fact have the big 4 in HD, Dish does not. ALL signals from satellite are Digital, but their is compression used by both satellite companies because of a bandwidth crunch they went through. Directv dosent compress HD from what I have read, whereas Dish does for now, but DIsh is launching two satellites this year (08) and should be good to go by about the end of march to mid april (if everything keeps on track) to play catch up (total number of HD channels, Locals in HD). Also both companies have the Cleveland RSN HD channels. As far as DVR's go, Dish Dvr's are generally rated higher then alot of the companies (including Directv) the thing to keep in mind with dish is, if you have two tvs (one HD, and one SD) their vip722 can control both of those tvs, out of one box! and as far as the 300 dollars off a HDTV through best buy, if you search around satelliteguys, there was a deal with dish dont know if its still good or not, but you get 800 off of any Aquos HDTV with the purchase of Dish network! anything I missed or any other questions please feel free to ask! also as far as costs go, Dish network is raising their costs (and adding different HD packages, one for 9.99) We just posted the prices at satelliteguys.us, Theses prices will be good from feburary on! and keep in mind Directv will be doing the same, aand on installation costs, call Cox, ask them if they will waive them as you are thinking of going satellite, you never know they could give you a good deal, but if you have your heart set on satellte go for it, if you were a football fan this would be easy! go Directv they have the sunday ticket! :)

drummersteve:

Dish(E*) does NOT provide locals in HD (digital). Direct TV (D*) DOES provide locals in HD (digital).
Sorry....a pet peeve of mine....it's gotta be digital before it can be HD!!!!!!

I'm a bit confused by your statement. If E* provides a method to receive HD OTA then it is a digital signal. The question is, can you receive it?

OTA signals are just as digital as satellite or cable.

Or did I just misunderstand your statement?

Thanks for the replies guys, lots of great info around here.

Ok, now I've got a question about QAM tuners. From the info that I could gather, if I had a regular analog cable connection coupled with an HDTV that included a QAM tuner, I should be able to pick up all my locals in HD, correct? Now if this holds true, wouldn't the picture not be of HD quality because the feed would still be running through COAX and not component? Does anyone do this with a QAM tuner? Is there anyway of using a QAM tuner to pick up HD/digital but through component?

Ok, now I've got a question about QAM tuners. From the info that I could gather, if I had a regular analog cable connection coupled with an HDTV that included a QAM tuner, I should be able to pick up all my locals in HD, correct? Now if this holds true, wouldn't the picture not be of HD quality because the feed would still be running through COAX and not component? Does anyone do this with a QAM tuner? Is there anyway of using a QAM tuner to pick up HD/digital but through component?

Yes, locals via QAM in HD, assuming your cable company provides them unencrypted (most do) but verify which locals are available per cable company in QAM HD. Ex: WOW carries all locals in QAM HD unencrypted, except WVIZ and WBNX.

No need for component prior to the tuner. Another option is to get your locals in HD OTA (over the air). But that is dependent on your location, topography, distance from towers, antenna, and having a built in or external ATSC tuner. If external tuner you can then do component or HDMI should you chose.

No need for component prior to the tuner. Another option is to get your locals in HD OTA (over the air). But that is dependent on your location, topography, distance from towers, antenna, and having a built in or external ATSC tuner. If external tuner you can then do component or HDMI should you chose.

Just for my own understanding, how does a television with a built in QAM deliver the signal? Here's what I see: Cable to back of set which leads right to QAM in television and then...what?

Just for my own understanding, how does a television with a built in QAM deliver the signal? Here's what I see: Cable to back of set which leads right to QAM in television and then...what?

As stated, the tv would also have to have a built in ATSC tuner. If the tv does not have two coax inputs (one QAM, one ATSC) he could have a simple cable box into tv via S-video, component, composite.

Many tv's have both QAM and ATSC tuners, some even have a third tuner for NTSC.

Just for my own understanding, how does a television with a built in QAM deliver the signal? Here's what I see: Cable to back of set which leads right to QAM in television and then...what?
When you set a TV with a QAM tuner to scan the "cable" input, the NTSC tuner first scans for the analog stations, then the QAM tuner automatically scans for the digital stations. While the scan is taking place, you typically see a running tally of the analog stations found and the digital stations found.

After the scan, and with the "cable" input selected, you can then use the channel up and down keys to access both analog and digital stations, or you can directly input the channel number. If your cable company has set it up correctly, you should be able to see your digital stations on the same channel number as you would if you had a digital cable box (e.g. "203"). If not, you will see something like "101-203". In any case, your TV should also be able to pass digital audio (including 5.1) to a receiver.

If you do go with cable ask if they use Switched Digital Video. I don't believe that Cox offers the SA 8300, I think they offer the Moto box. But I also believe that Cox is on the list to receive TiVo software.:) That is good news for you if they go that route because TiVo blows everything else out of the water.

COX uses the Motorola DVR with Passport Echo. You really can't beat Passport Echo(I know hookbill would disagree!) but compared to other cable/satellite systems(D*, E*, SARA, Navigator) Passport is the best.

http://www.cox.com/cleveland/cable/dvr/dvr_demo.asp

Just for my own understanding, how does a television with a built in QAM deliver the signal? Here's what I see: Cable to back of set which leads right to QAM in television and then...what?

Sorry hookbill, I was running out the door as I was replying before. As ajstan eluded to, both can be accomplished with a single coax input, provided the tv has the correct components. But the combination of different dual inputs is quite extensive.

I have two scenarios in my home. One plasma has built in ATSC, NTSC and QAM tuners, the other is just a plasma monitor with no tuners whatsoever.

Panny plasma (built in tuners):
Cable system ===> coax to STB ===> tv via S-video
OTA ===> antenna ====> coax quad shield ====> tv via coax quad shield
note: single coax input to tv is both ATSC and NTSC

NEC plasma monitor (no built in tuners) :
cable system ===> coax to STB ===> tv via component
OTA ===> antenna ===> coax quad shield to external digital ATSC/QAM tuner ===> tv via HDMI (or component, if you wish)

Same antenna feeds digital HD to both tv's, analog to one

This is just two of a multitude of dual input (QAM and ATSC) connection scenarios. And as with anything, each type of input has it's advantages & disadvantages.

I'm a bit confused by your statement. If E* provides a method to receive HD OTA then it is a digital signal. The question is, can you receive it?

OTA signals are just as digital as satellite or cable.

Or did I just misunderstand your statement?

hookbill:
Hey, I realize they both have OTA tuners. I was simply responding to a newbee's query on E* or D* providing the digital locals w/o an antenna (as he already stated he was reluctant to install). I didn't want to send the guy away dizzy!!!

COX uses the Motorola DVR with Passport Echo. You really can't beat Passport Echo(I know hookbill would disagree!) but compared to other cable/satellite systems(D*, E*, SARA, Navigator) Passport is the best.

http://www.cox.com/cleveland/cable/dvr/dvr_demo.asp

Well, you learn something new everyday. I didn't know the Moto box used passport. I "assumed" that it was different software since it was from a different company. I've never even seen a Moto box.

I don't disagree with your statement that passport is the best software a cable company provides. When Cox delivers TiVo software, I wll at that point.;)

hookbill:
Hey, I realize they both have OTA tuners. I was simply responding to a newbee's query on E* or D* providing the digital locals w/o an antenna (as he already stated he was reluctant to install). I didn't want to send the guy away dizzy!!!


Oh. So you decided just to send me away dizzy. Thanks for the clerification.;)

Ahm. The "HD PBS" feed on satellite is the exact same feed that WNEO/WEAO & WVIZ carry on their HD -1 channel. So when Newshour goes HD there is only one place in PBS land where that feed will be sent: PBS HD!

Someone up here earlier, I believe, said it wasn't showing up on the national PBS HD channel.

A quick check of 45/49's online schedule next week shows alternate programming on PBS HD in the 7 PM hour every weekday, and the Newshour only on the analog/SD channels.

The HD broadcast started a week ago Monday.

THAT'S what I'm talking about.

Someone up here earlier, I believe, said it wasn't showing up on the national PBS HD channel.

A quick check of 45/49's online schedule next week shows alternate programming on PBS HD in the 7 PM hour every weekday, and the Newshour only on the analog/SD channels.

The HD broadcast started a week ago Monday.

THAT'S what I'm talking about.

Yup. NewsHour went HD on Dec. 17th. See this post. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12462901&postcount=10643)

I think the real question is: If a show is shot and produced in HD but no one can see the finished HD product, is the show really "HD"? (Kind of like the tree falling in the forest with no one around analogy....)

There is a lot of confusion on why NewsHour remains on the analog/SD version of WVIZ(25), WNEO(45) or WEAO(49) and has not been bumped to the digital/HD channel despite it being actively and currently shot in HD.

1) Are you happy with the quality of feed/HD channels? Both audio and video? I'm not too worried about actual HD channel selection, thats more personal preference. How about SD content?

D* subscriber here. (Previous E* sub). Yes I'm happy with D*'s audio/picture quality. I have a feeling once you purchase your HDTV, you may have a different opinion on the second part to your question. HD channel selection should be one of your top factors in deciding among providers. Once you watch a few HD channels, you'll think SD channels are garbage in comparison. I may be a bit spoiled, but I personally have no SD channels in my favorite's program list. SD isn't even an option for me when I have so much HD to choose from.

2)For you satellite owners, do you experience dropouts in rain/thunder/snow?? How long?

This is probably one of the most widespread stereotypes for satellite's. I've had satellite as long as I can remember and I can't recall the last time it went out. As a poster mentioned earlier, if it's installed properly, you shouldn't have any problems.

3) For both users, is HD content variable? Meaning that if a provider claims it has channels x and y in HD, are they ALWAYS shown in HD or to they switch back and forth between feeds (say only HD for primetime shows?). Is this different in satellite vs. cable providers?

If the named provider has the HD channel in their offered channel lineup, you will get any and all HD programming specific to that channel. The amount of HD programming varies on each channel though.

4) Whats the deal with local channels + satellite? Are they always in HD or only during primetime telecasts? Does the satellite provider have to install an extra satellite to capture the locals?

You'll have to consult TV guides or channel lists to see exactly which shows are offered in HD. Typically, most important primetime shows, sporting events and news programs are offered in HD these days. And YES, Direct TV offers local's in HD without the need of an additional antenna.

Yup. NewsHour went HD on Dec. 17th. See this post. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12462901&postcount=10643)

I think the real question is: If a show is shot and produced in HD but no one can see the finished HD product, is the show really "HD"? (Kind of like the tree falling in the forest with no one around analogy....)

There is a lot of confusion on why NewsHour remains on the analog/SD version of WVIZ(25), WNEO(45) or WEAO(49) and has not been bumped to the digital/HD channel despite it being actively and currently shot in HD.

Until the national conversion to digital television in February 2009, PBS will offer local PBS stations simultaneous feeds of both an HD and standard-definition NEWSHOUR broadcast. The standard-definition NEWSHOUR feeds will be down-converted from HD by PBS and will therefore appear to viewers of analog channels in a “letterbox” format.

The problem may be on the local end. Since the show airs at different times(6PM on WVIZ, 7PM on WNEO) and the network provides the "feeds", it sounds like the affiliate has to record the program and air it. I'd be willing to bet the local PBS doesn't have HD recording equipment.

This situation seems very similar to "Wheel" and "Jeopardy", WEWS has HD recording equipment to record both shows off the satellite.

If this is the case, PBS is making a mistake. It would make more sense to show the News Hour at a designated time on the national HD PBS channel.

The problem may be on the local end. Since the show airs at different times(6PM on WVIZ, 7PM on WNEO) and the network provides the "feeds", it sounds like the affiliate has to record the program and air it. I'd be willing to bet the local PBS doesn't have HD recording equipment.

This situation seems very similar to "Wheel" and "Jeopardy", WEWS has HD recording equipment to record both shows off the satellite.

If this is the case, PBS is making a mistake. It would make more sense to show the News Hour at a designated time on the national HD PBS channel.

I googled an old article about Newshour production circa 2001. They send it out over a national feed live at 6pm, then again at 7pm, and at 10pm ET (presumably for the west coast stations to pick up). This would imply that no recording equipment is needed at the local station.

The way I understand it, most of the PBS stations don't have the equipment that would allow them to cut into the main "-1" national HD feed with this Newshour feed.

I googled an old article about Newshour production circa 2001. They send it out over a national feed live at 6pm, then again at 7pm, and at 10pm ET (presumably for the west coast stations to pick up). This would imply that no recording equipment is needed at the local station.

The way I understand it, most of the PBS stations don't have the equipment that would allow them to cut into the main "-1" national HD feed with this Newshour feed.

I'm not certain about this but from this statement it kind of reminds me of how plain old regular television use to work. There were two feeds sent out, one at 7:30 (remember when primetime started at 7:30?) and one at 10:30.

So the famous statement, "9:00 eastern, 8:00 central" was used.

I believe this may still be the case since primetime shows in the central time zone are still the same.

So that "recording" feature must be awful expensive. Specially HD recording and that would definitely put PBS in a difficult position since their funding is limited.

I'm sure he's busy with the holidays and all but TV21CHIEF could probably clear all this up quickly.

Ahm. ....the "bugs" ID'ing the station. BTW it was the lack of this bug that kept PBS HD off WNEO/WEAO for all that time.

Michael P is usually 100% on-the-money correct, but he missed here. The fee charged by PBS was more than 45/49 was willing (able) to cover. If you recall, they did initially carry the HD channel and when PBS decided to charge for it, they pulled it off. They have had the capability of "bugging" all along with the Agilevision encoder.

FYI... re: DirecTV locals in HD. I understand that DirecTV has installed equipment in the Youngstown market to receive the Y-town local HDs, so my guess is that Cleveland mkt is similarly equipped. Just waiting to turn it on?

FYI... re: DirecTV locals in HD. I understand that DirecTV has installed equipment in the Youngstown market to receive the Y-town local HDs, so my guess is that Cleveland mkt is similarly equipped. Just waiting to turn it on?

Unless I misinterpreted your statement, even though I am not D* subscriber I can say that I know that locals are available on D* in HD for sometime.

You know many of us have talked on this board for some amount of time. Sometimes we argue a bit and sometimes we all agree. We educated each other and we all from time to time show our personalities.

I probably have more friends here then I do in the real world.:eek:

So I personally would like to take this moment to wish everybody on the local board a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

And if this greeting doesn't fit in this politically correct world, then you know what I mean.

Have a great holiday!:)

You know many of us have talked on this board for some amount of time. Sometimes we argue a bit and sometimes we all agree. We educated each other and we all from time to time show our personalities.

I probably have more friends here then I do in the real world.:eek:

So I personally would like to take this moment to wish everybody on the local board a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

And if this greeting doesn't fit in this politically correct world, then you know what I mean.

Have a great holiday!:)

Timely and well put hookbill. Ditto to you and may your New Year bring you good health, prosperity and more HD content! :)

You know many of us have talked on this board for some amount of time. Sometimes we argue a bit and sometimes we all agree. We educated each other and we all from time to time show our personalities.

I probably have more friends here then I do in the real world.:eek:

So I personally would like to take this moment to wish everybody on the local board a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

And if this greeting doesn't fit in this politically correct world, then you know what I mean.

Have a great holiday!:)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone as well!

*Holiday Programing note: 8pm on ABC, "Dr. Seuss' How the Grinch Stole Christmas" (Animated) will be broadcast in HD. It will however remain in it's OAR of 4:3.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS! :D

I asked my wife last night if she got me a Blu-Ray player for Christmas (I just got an HD-DVD about a month ago). She got this look on her face like, "What the heck is Bleray?????" Oh well... :D

Smarty pants:
Cut a deal, maybe your wife is a Repulican---famous words of Oddball in "Kelleys Hereos".
JJK

Hello all,

I live on the westside of Cleveland and recently purchased a a terk Slim line antenna and mounted it on top of my garage. Looking southeast from my location, I can see the antenna towers in Parma. However, I can only receive 5.1, 8.1, 43.1, 43.2, 55.1 and 61.1.

What am I doing wrong? Do I need a bigger antenna or maybe a second one? Do I need my current antenna higher? Please help, any advise would be appreciated.

Merry Christmas All!!!! Heres hoping to a great 2008 full of HD (I hear Dish is going to be making some announcements! and we all want to see Directv get 30 more channels in about 4 days! also Time warner has nowhere to go but up, and we will see how SDV does, but that is besides the point!) hope you all have GREAT holidays!

Happy Holidays to all the fine folks here! You, too, Hookbill!

:D :D

What am I doing wrong? Do I need a bigger antenna or maybe a second one? Do I need my current antenna higher? Please help, any advise would be appreciated.

I don't have any time to go into detail here, but the problem is that you're not picking up the two local stations with actual frequencies in the VHF band. You need an antenna that will do VHF.

WKYC/3 (digital 3.1) is actually on RF channel 2 - VHF
WOIO/19 (digital 19.1) is actually on RF channel 10 - VHF

Time warner has nowhere to go but up, and we will see how SDV does, but that is besides the point!)

I hate to be Debbie Downer, as fas as Time Warner, there are rumors on the Navigator forum that the bug-filled, hideous Navigator will be deployed sometime next year. Oh well, we'll worry about that one later!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone. And I'll second that -more HD in '08. I hope cale gets off it's butt because that's the only place we'll get it. I see the HD lineup on network TV shrinking as the writers strike continues. We need the HD movie channels and other programming like USA, FX and maybe some REAL HD at TBS.

also Time warner has nowhere to go but up, and we will see how SDV does, but that is besides the point!)


Just to counter nickdawgs doom and gloom there is a way to avoid the navigator software. Get a TiVo S3 or HD.:D

You know many of us have talked on this board for some amount of time. Sometimes we argue a bit and sometimes we all agree. We educated each other and we all from time to time show our personalities.

I probably have more friends here then I do in the real world.:eek:

So I personally would like to take this moment to wish everybody on the local board a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

And if this greeting doesn't fit in this politically correct world, then you know what I mean.

Have a great holiday!:)

Well said, Hookbill.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, everyone. May all your mpeg streams have the correct PCR. :D

Terkjerk:
And if you want to pick up PBS 49.1, 49.2, 49.3 you will need an outdoor antenna.
JJK

Fox to sell TV station in Cleveland. http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2007/12/24/fox.html

Fox to sell TV station in Cleveland. http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2007/12/24/fox.html

I reported that about two weeks ago. They even announced it on Fox News yesterday.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12394979&postcount=10551

I reported that about two weeks ago. They even announced it on Fox News yesterday.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12394979&postcount=10551

SORRY

Indeed, Merry X-Mas and Happy New Year to all...and if not, just Happy Holidays! I'm really appreciating all the extra info and experiences this forum has to offer. Got a bunch of info for the local satellite stations vs. cable co's thanks to this forum. Next decision is the bigger decision; the actual TV!! lol...hopefully I'll catch some luck on after x-mas sales......thanks again guys.....

Hello all,

I live on the westside of Cleveland and recently purchased a a terk Slim line antenna and mounted it on top of my garage. Looking southeast from my location, I can see the antenna towers in Parma. However, I can only receive 5.1, 8.1, 43.1, 43.2, 55.1 and 61.1.

What am I doing wrong? Do I need a bigger antenna or maybe a second one? Do I need my current antenna higher? Please help, any advise would be appreciated.

If you could post the actual model number, verify you mounted this antenna OUTSIDE, and give your actual city then others in here can help you better.


As others have suggested:
1. make sure it is both UHF and VHF capable
2. if not currently located outside, temporarily try it outside, and as high as is reasonably possible.

Also, are your connections to the antenna good? No splitters in the coax line? Not running to multiple TV's? Using well shielded cable (I'm assuming it's RG6 or RG59 coax)?

If all above are true/correct, then you may need a more powerful (larger) antenna or even an amplified antenna.

So that "recording" feature must be awful expensive. Specially HD recording and that would definitely put PBS in a difficult position since their funding is limited.

Actually from what a Sony VP tells me, HD recording is very inexpensive and easy (can be done on just about any computer.) The "rub" is the switching equipment. That is much more expensive and more difficult to implement and interface with older equipment.

From Broadcast Engineering website:


Public television stations across the United States will soon be available in HD to DIRECTV customers through an agreement reached by DIRECTV, the Association of Public Television Stations (APTS) and the PBS. DIRECTV viewers will have access to other Public Television content as well.

DIRECTV will include the local HD feeds of Public Television stations in its HD rollout plans beginning in 2008. DIRECTV, APTS and PBS also will work together to develop new VOD offerings to make available local and national public television programming to DIRECTV's customers anytime they want it. In addition, DIRECTV will carry two national SD channels of public television programming.

For more information, see www.directv.com

Actually from what a Sony VP tells me, HD recording is very inexpensive and easy (can be done on just about any computer.) The "rub" is the switching equipment. That is much more expensive and more difficult to implement and interface with older equipment.

Interesting. Maybe the PBS satellite feed to the affiliates is different from the four major networks. The channel 21 chief engineer posted this a couple years ago. It did not sound so cheap. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6455440#post6455440

For those of you that care, the NFL has reached agreements with both NBC and CBS to show Saturday's New England/Giants game:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d805793b5&template=with-video&confirm=true

Nothing about HD feed, so it's probably just going to be SD.

For those of you that care, the NFL has reached agreements with both NBC and CBS to show Saturday's New England/Giants game:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d805793b5&template=with-video&confirm=true

Nothing about HD feed, so it's probably just going to be SD.

I saw that on the news just about a half an hour ago. Very peculiar. I can't imagine it not being in HD though. If NE wins it would be the first time a team would ever go 16-0. I'd say that would be worth broadcasting in HD.

NFL Network shows it in HD, but I'm not sure whether they'll allow the other networks to.

NFL Network shows it in HD, but I'm not sure whether they'll allow the other networks to.

I'm betting they will show it in HD.:)

I saw that on the news just about a half an hour ago. Very peculiar. I can't imagine it not being in HD though. If NE wins it would be the first time a team would ever go 16-0. I'd say that would be worth broadcasting in HD.

'72 Dolphins went undefeated. But fewer games per season back then and most assuredly not in HD!

What a great run for NE!

NFL Network shows it in HD, but I'm not sure whether they'll allow the other networks to.

If I remember right, the last time the Browns were on NFL Network (last year against the Steelers?), the game was in HD on whatever local Cleveland affiliate carried it.

For those of you that care, the NFL has reached agreements with both NBC and CBS to show Saturday's New England/Giants game:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d805793b5&template=with-video&confirm=true

Nothing about HD feed, so it's probably just going to be SD.

Even though it hasn't been exactly spelled out, the use of the words "simulcast" indicates to me that both NBC and CBS will carry the same HD feed as the NFL Network.

Also, an interesting side note as stated in Engadget HD: "The NFL has never had a three network simulcast before, and this is the first simulcast since CBS and NBC teamed up on Super Bowl I in 1967."

Even though it hasn't been exactly spelled out, the use of the words "simulcast" indicates to me that both NBC and CBS will carry the same HD feed as the NFL Network.

Also, an interesting side note as stated in Engadget HD: "The NFL has never had a three network simulcast before, and this is the first simulcast since CBS and NBC teamed up on Super Bowl I in 1967."

Yup. It's confirmed (http://www.hdsportsguide.com/) that the Pats vs. Giants game will be in HD on the NFL Network, CBS and NBC, all in 1080i.

Now the fun part will be to compare each broadcast to determine who has the most pristine picture. I put my money on NFL Network since both CBS and NBC have subchannels, degrading the picture on their main channel.....

Two more Directv HD channels:

217 - Tennis Channel.
610 - CSTV

It will also be interesting to see what happens with the sound. NFL Network on Directv is only broadcasting games in 2.0.

Yup. It's confirmed (http://www.hdsportsguide.com/) that the Pats vs. Giants game will be in HD on the NFL Network, CBS and NBC, all in 1080i.

Now the fun part will be to compare each broadcast to determine who has the most pristine picture. I put my money on NFL Network since both CBS and NBC have subchannels, degrading the picture on their main channel.....

Two more Directv HD channels:

217 - Tennis Channel.
610 - CSTV

Thank you.

Cleveland HD Channel List by Provider, Rev. 30 is now updated. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pI9yd6lJxEOtgyXz6BaZTeg)

It will also be interesting to see what happens with the sound. NFL Network on Directv is only broadcasting games in 2.0.

On WKYC, the program guide says Dolby Digital, HDTV. On WOIO, it only says HDTV. WKYC will most likely have the best sound. WKYC's sound is usually better than WOIO's.

Now the fun part will be to compare each broadcast to determine who has the most pristine picture. I put my money on NFL Network since both CBS and NBC have subchannels, degrading the picture on their main channel.....

I think the best picture will be on NBC/WKYC. We all remember the terrible picture on WOIO-HD on SD programming plus their HD broadcast is not that hot. Macroblocking abd blurriness are common on WOIO-HD.

ditto. WKYC will be the one to watch.

My receiver specifically tells me how many speakers are getting signal, but since the original transmission will be the NFL Network's, they won't be able to send anything that isn't already there.

This whole discussion about the picture quality, and sound quality is kind of cracking me up. So much speculation.

Here's my thoughts: I doubt I personally will be able to see any pq difference between NBC and CBS. Why everyone thinks NFL will look even better is a mystery to me. Yes, I've seen the reports some have said about how great it looks. How in the heck can a network that is two years old possibly put on a better presentation then the ones who have been around for years.

And just because it's a 3 way simulcast that doesn't mean that NBC and CBS won't have their own cameras there. In other words the majority of the broadcast may have a shared picture but I suspect that NBC and CBS will have different angles from time to time.

Having said all of that I also will go with the same theory that Dolby Digital 5.1 will be on both channels and it will be true Dolby 5.1. And having said that I'll put my money on CBS having the best sound. But the only reason I say that is because generally when I watch a show on CBS their Dolby sounds best to me, but I have never watched NBC's Sunday Night Football.

I guess we will all see tomorrow night, won't we.:)

Thank you.

Cleveland HD Channel List by Provider, Rev. 30 is now updated. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pI9yd6lJxEOtgyXz6BaZTeg)

FYI - the "TW HD Link" link at the top of the spreadsheet points to a non-existant page on TWC's site... The rest of them still work. (Not like it's a serious problem...) :)

Thanks for the sheet - very handy.

FYI - the "TW HD Link" link at the top of the spreadsheet points to a non-existant page on TWC's site... The rest of them still work. (Not like it's a serious problem...) :)

Thanks for the sheet - very handy.

Another mistake I noticed is FSN and STO HD are not listed under Time Warner. WNEO-HD is also missing. There's also two extra channels: Cinemax HD and Starz HD. Time Warner does not carry Cinemax HD or Starz HD.

Another mistake I noticed is FSN and STO HD are not listed under Time Warner. WNEO-HD is also missing. There's also two extra channels: Cinemax HD and Starz HD. Time Warner does not carry Cinemax HD or Starz HD.

Whoa, slow down their cowboy. Maybe in your area TW doesn't carry Cinemax HD and Starz HD but it does in mine.

http://www.twclineup.com/lineups/NEO-6097SuburbanClevelandLU_102407.pdf

Now the interesting thing in my area it shows WNEO-HD, which we do not get, but in your area I'm sure you do.

nickdawg, on the List STO and FSO are starred under Time warner Cable, meaning they are part time HD channels (game only). I thought the first time I looked at it they were saying they didnt have it, but the list is correct!

Anybody here have any experience with using a QAM tuner on Armstrong in Medina? Reports out of Pittsburgh back in January (the only thing I could find on Google) stated that only the locals were available, but Armstrong has updated a lot of HD since then (33 channels and growing plus some VOD!)

I'm looking to put a small LCD on the kitchen counter, and it would be nice to pick up the majority of stations without another cable box.

On a related note, anybody have any recommendations for a 17"-20" set with a QAM tuner?

While my parrots were watcing the morning cartoons on TW WKYC-HD the picture froze and then a grey screen after I changed the channel.

OTA, D* people are you getting a picture?

Not getting them OTA or via Directv.

Directv has a notice up stating that the local TV station is having technical difficulties.

WKYC-DT just went away for me on WOW cable in North Royalton. Nothing now....

Robert

My 3 yr old and 1 yr old were trying to watch Dragon on WKYC when they were so rudely interupted. Now they have to watch in crappy SD. :)

This whole discussion about the picture quality, and sound quality is kind of cracking me up. So much speculation.

Here's my thoughts: I doubt I personally will be able to see any pq difference between NBC and CBS. Why everyone thinks NFL will look even better is a mystery to me. Yes, I've seen the reports some have said about how great it looks. How in the heck can a network that is two years old possibly put on a better presentation then the ones who have been around for years.

And just because it's a 3 way simulcast that doesn't mean that NBC and CBS won't have their own cameras there. In other words the majority of the broadcast may have a shared picture but I suspect that NBC and CBS will have different angles from time to time.

Having said all of that I also will go with the same theory that Dolby Digital 5.1 will be on both channels and it will be true Dolby 5.1. And having said that I'll put my money on CBS having the best sound. But the only reason I say that is because generally when I watch a show on CBS their Dolby sounds best to me, but I have never watched NBC's Sunday Night Football.

I guess we will all see tomorrow night, won't we.:)

NFL Network will look better during fast motion shots because NFLN has no subchannels, thus little to no macroblocking. So my prediction is NFLN > CBS > NBC

The sound is crappy 2.0 coming from NFLN, so whether NBC or CBS are in DD5.1 doesn't matter. Garbage in, garbage out.

There won't be any different camera angles from CBS or NBC - we are going to get the Gumbel/Collinsworth announcing crew times THREE, so I would expect the video the be exactly the same.

Assuming WKYC gets their digital channel back up by then... :-)

On a related note, anybody have any recommendations for a 17"-20" set with a QAM tuner?

I've got a Vizio VX20L I bought refurb for a good price from newegg.com

It picks up all the clear QAMs very nicely.

Only one problem with it - if the QAM signal is weak and on an HD channel (mostly on NBC or CBS I've noticed it) - the TV will pixelate as the signal fades, then blast a full volume burst of static through the speakers, then reboot itself. Scared the living hell out of me the first time it happened. Nobody else on the VX20L thread says they have this problem, so maybe it's just something with my "refurb" set.

NFL Network will look better during fast motion shots because NFLN has no subchannels, thus little to no macroblocking. So my prediction is NFLN > CBS > NBC

The sound is crappy 2.0 coming from NFLN, so whether NBC or CBS are in DD5.1 doesn't matter. Garbage in, garbage out.

There won't be any different camera angles from CBS or NBC - we are going to get the Gumbel/Collinsworth announcing crew times THREE, so I would expect the video the be exactly the same.

I was quite skeptical about the "different cameras" comments at this game. That's basically the whole idea behind "simulcast" isn't it? One broadcast over multiple end points? (don't know the techy words)

If both NBC & CBS had full equipment and their own cameras at one event that's the same as both networks covering the same live news story, no simulcast. I think with two complete and different sets of cameras at such a sporting event the camera guys would be running into each other. Which would be kinda fun to watch. :)

I was quite skeptical about the "different cameras" comments at this game. That's basically the whole idea behind "simulcast" isn't it? One broadcast over multiple end points? (don't know the techy words)

If both NBC & CBS had full equipment and their own cameras at one event that's the same as both networks covering the same live news story, no simulcast. I think with two complete and different sets of cameras at such a sporting event the camera guys would be running into each other. Which would be kinda fun to watch. :)

I'm allowed to speculate as much as the next guy.;) However the comment about the broadcasting crew does make me think twice about what I said previously.

Again, we will see tonight. Well, if WKYC comes back. Hey we still will see either way.

I'm allowed to speculate as much as the next guy.;) However the comment about the broadcasting crew does make me think twice about what I said previously.

Again, we will see tonight. Well, if WKYC comes back. Hey we still will see either way.

More than allowed, your comments are welcomed. Was just adding my take on it. :)

Just checked my OTA WKYC feed, coming in fine. It's only a digital tuner, so I'm not getting the SD feed.

I've got a Vizio VX20L I bought refurb for a good price from newegg.com

It picks up all the clear QAMs very nicely.

Only one problem with it - if the QAM signal is weak and on an HD channel (mostly on NBC or CBS I've noticed it) - the TV will pixelate as the signal fades, then blast a full volume burst of static through the speakers, then reboot itself. Scared the living hell out of me the first time it happened. Nobody else on the VX20L thread says they have this problem, so maybe it's just something with my "refurb" set.

Have you checked to see if th ere's a downloadable firmware upgrade available? If the set is crashing from a weak signal, there might be a patch for it.

My 3 yr old and 1 yr old were trying to watch Dragon on WKYC when they were so rudely interupted. Now they have to watch in crappy SD. :)

My parrots are suppose to have the intelligence of a 2-4 year old. Depending on the species.

Anyway when Dragon came on I did notice that everyone of them was looking at the TV. And they were all quiet. Then the picture went and like you they had to watch in SD.:)

Here's a little HD trivia that probably none of you guys no about. Parrots, with their keen eye site can actually get more out of HD then we can. I read this a while back in Bird Talk magazine.

I do not know if they prefer 1080i or 720p.:D

My parrots are suppose to have the intelligence of a 2-4 year old. Depending on the species.

Anyway when Dragon came on I did notice that everyone of them was looking at the TV. And they were all quiet. Then the picture went and like you they had to watch in SD.:)

Here's a little HD trivia that probably none of you guys no about. Parrots, with their keen eye site can actually get more out of HD then we can. I read this a while back in Bird Talk magazine.

I do not know if they prefer 1080i or 720p.:D

If you really care for your birds Hook, you'll do the best you can to feed them a steady diet of only 1080p. :D

No one has mentioned it, but I just turned on WKYZHD and it's up and running just fine. That is if you like golf.:rolleyes:

Two things I could never understand watching on TV. Golf and Fishing. I understand that playing golf and fishing is enjoyable but just watching?:confused:

It was actually mentioned in passing a few posts back by toby10, but not obvious, since he probably checked after it came back on and didn't notice the problem.

For me WKYC was gone for only like 30-60 minutes. I just tried to tune in CBS though and now THAT is gone.

Watching on CBS. Definitely 5.1, even though NFL Network is 2.0. I'm getting sound out of my rear speakers, so it means that NFL Network can do 5.1, but isn't broadcasting it...

I'm DEFINATELY going with WKYC. NBC is keeping the show in original audio format(L/R). WOIO has some hideous 5.1 upconvert. It IS an upconvert because EVERY show on WOIO has sound coming out of the rear speakers, including the King of Queens and Will & Grace(which are syndication & not 5.1).

WOIO has got it, and I'm not surprised. Definitely better sound. Even my wife noticed it and she never says anything about Dolby 5.1.

I'm getting plenty of crowd in the rear speakers. I'm with jtscherne it sounds like genuine 5.1.

I haven't checked other threads, but having listened for nearly a half hour, I agree with nickdawg... CBS is merely sending crowd noise to the rear speakers. I'm not hearing any discrete sounds from the rear speakers and I'm starting to wonder if they're just feeding the sound from the front speakers to the rear!


WOIO has got it, and I'm not surprised. Definitely better sound. Even my wife noticed it and she never says anything about Dolby 5.1.

I'm getting plenty of crowd in the rear speakers. I'm with jtscherne it sounds like genuine 5.1.

I'm DEFINATELY going with WKYC. NBC is keeping the show in original audio format(L/R). WOIO has some hideous 5.1 upconvert. It IS an upconvert because EVERY show on WOIO has sound coming out of the rear speakers, including the King of Queens and Will & Grace(which are syndication & not 5.1).

I also agree with nickdawg, announcers are coming out of side speakers and nothing in center speaker. I don't hear anything out of rear speakers.

But even though they are keeping the sound as delivered they are showing 5.1 on the broadcast itself.

If it is an upconvert on WOIO it's better then Dolby PLII would sound.

*Does anyone have NFL-HD? How is it on NFL-HD? 2/0, 3/2.1?

WKYC/NBC is flagged as 3/2.1, even though sound comes out L/R. WOIO is also 3/2.1 but it sounds like a bad Dolby PLII upconversion. The crowd noises out the rear were very irritating, I like the 2 channel sound on WKYC better. Leave it to WOIO to have loud, crazy sound! Just like a joke before WOIO went HD: If WOIO had 5.1 they could put a different news actor on each speaker, have them all talk and argue at the same time!

As I've said before, NFL Network only does 2.0. Basically, NBC is presenting the same sound (although it doesn't seem as loud).

Based on watching for a lengthy amount of time on each, my picture rankings are:

1. NFL Network
2. WOIO
3. WKYC

I checked WOIO and WKYC both OTA and via Directv and didn't see any real difference. Otherwise, I'm wondering whether WKYC's subchannel takes up more bandwidth than WOIO's?

So I haven't been on this thread for awhile. Hi again.

My Runco 930 ceiling-mounted CRT fp died early December and I've installed a temporaray-but-nice Samsung 710 720p DLP pj (while I look for a 1080p over the next 6 months). Anyway, picture is great, blacks are fine, etc. Ran some good BlueJean `1.3a bonded HDMI in the celing, etc. OK, so now I needed to replace my DVI-only SA8000HD with WOW's SA8300HD. Is it the 8300, the poorer HD bandwidth lately, or maybe my pj, but most sports, especially NFL Football, pixelates like crazy on motion close-ups, etc. (like tonights Pats-Giants game, as an example). Is it the digital pj/8300 combo? If I went TivoHD would it be better (I'm less concerned about recording features per se...I have 3 other Tivos and seldom record in the HT room anyway....more about "live" TV PQ). Thx
Ted

P.S Happy New Year all you N Ohioians

NFL Network is doing a spectacular job of promoting itself. Being on two networks and constantly reminding fans that it's available on cable. They even threw it in that first interview before the game. Very smart.

I've noticed some pixelation and some sound break up on WOIO. Very breifly though.

As I've said before, NFL Network only does 2.0. Basically, NBC is presenting the same sound (although it doesn't seem as loud).

Based on watching for a lengthy amount of time on each, my picture rankings are:

1. NFL Network
2. WOIO
3. WKYC

I checked WOIO and WKYC both OTA and via Directv and didn't see any real difference. Otherwise, I'm wondering whether WKYC's subchannel takes up more bandwidth than WOIO's?

I agree with your PQ assessment. NFLN in MPEG4 on D* wins the race, with CBS (WOIO) a close second. NBC in third.

I haven't whipped out the TSReader tonight, but on past readings WOIO keeps WeatherNow at about 2Mbps fixed, thus their PQ stays relatively consistent. WKYC lets WeatherPlus do variable bit rate anywhere from 2Mbps to typically 4.5 Mbps to as much as 6Mbps. Also keep in mind the NBC Network has a bandwidth limitation at the network level, (I beleive it's a 25Mbps backhaul/fronthaul whatever you call it) so the local affiliate has less to work with when they re-encode it another time for delivery to the local viewers. I believe CBS backhaul/fronthauls their stuff at 45Mbps.

NFL Network is doing a spectacular job of promoting itself. Being on two networks and constantly reminding fans that it's available on cable. They even threw it in that first interview before the game. Very smart.

I've noticed some pixelation and some sound break up on WOIO. Very breifly though.

Maybe Time Warner will finally get a clue and add NFL Network.

Unfortunately, after tonight they don't have any real reason to rush to do it. There aren't any live games again until next November (except pre-season) and I'm not sure how many complaints they've received. After the Super Bowl, there isn't a lot of programming on the network that people would care about unless they are a hardcore football fan. The NFL definitely blinked by allowing the game to be shown tonight.

nickdawg, on the List STO and FSO are starred under Time warner Cable, meaning they are part time HD channels (game only). I thought the first time I looked at it they were saying they didnt have it, but the list is correct!

Thanks stuart628. Folks, please take notice of the asterisk's and follow them to the bottom where I indicate disclaimers and notes relating to the "*". Only a full time dedicated channel will be counted in the HD list. (I did the same thing wtih D* and STO-HD). Also beware, with cable companies in particular, programing will vary based on where you live in NE Ohio.

Also, if anyone has another Time Warner NE Ohio HD Channel Link that I can replace the outdated one that I have currently, please share.....

As I've said before, NFL Network only does 2.0. Basically, NBC is presenting the same sound (although it doesn't seem as loud).

Based on watching for a lengthy amount of time on each, my picture rankings are:

1. NFL Network
2. WOIO
3. WKYC

I checked WOIO and WKYC both OTA and via Directv and didn't see any real difference. Otherwise, I'm wondering whether WKYC's subchannel takes up more bandwidth than WOIO's?

I also agree with your assessment. NFL Network on D* is my preferred choice for the game.

Go Giants!

Another mistake I noticed is FSN and STO HD are not listed under Time Warner. WNEO-HD is also missing. There's also two extra channels: Cinemax HD and Starz HD. Time Warner does not carry Cinemax HD or Starz HD.

Come on dude! This is a "Cleveland" HD List. :eek: Akron's WNEO wasn't considered, however I did note Cleveland's PBS affiliate, WVIZ.......

Come on dude! This is a "Cleveland" HD List. Akron's WNEO wasn't considered, however I did note Cleveland's PBS affiliate, WVIZ.......

Technically it is the CLEVELAND-AKRON-CANTON market. Plus WNEO mops the floor with WVIZ. WNEO has 5.1 surround and a digital version of their SD broadcast on 45.2. WVIZ is 2.0 only plus it is impossible to get over the air.

Here is a link to TWC NE Ohio's main HD page:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/northeastohio/products/cable/hdtv.html

Technically it is the CLEVELAND-AKRON-CANTON market. Plus WNEO mops the floor with WVIZ. WNEO has 5.1 surround and a digital version of their SD broadcast on 45.2. WVIZ is 2.0 only plus it is impossible to get over the air.

Here is a link to TWC NE Ohio's main HD page:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/northeastohio/products/cable/hdtv.html

With all due respect, I'm not interested in which PBS affiliate is the better or which one is accessible through OTA. For the purpose of the list, I am simply noting that it has been reported that the majority of TW Cleveland customers will receive WVIZ PBS-HD (instead of WNEO) if a customer is to subscribe to TW's HD package.

Hey All,
I hope I'm not asking a previously-answered question, but I couldn't find it anywhere, so here it is. Does anyone here have Time Warner Cable out of the Mentor hub that they use a Clear QAM tuner with, such as in all new LCD TV's? I had borrowed my parents' LCD HDTV a couple months back and it got all kinds of unencrypted QAM channels like ESPN, TNT, the locals, TBS, and even a few HBO and Starz stations.

Then about a month ago I got an HDHomeRun so I could tune those channels and record TV on my PC to watch while I work. I could only get the local channels and everything else was encrypted.

What I am trying to find out is, did Time Warner recently encrypt a bunch of QAM channels at the Mentor hub, or is my HDHomeRun not picking up as many channels as my parents' HDTV did? I don't have any other way to check with an HDTV right now or I would check myself.

Does anyone here get TNT or ESPN HD over QAM in the Mentor area?

I've got a Vizio VX20L I bought refurb for a good price from newegg.com

...

Only one problem with it - if the QAM signal is weak and on an HD channel (mostly on NBC or CBS I've noticed it) - the TV will pixelate as the signal fades, then blast a full volume burst of static through the speakers, then reboot itself. Scared the living hell out of me the first time it happened.

:D

That's, uh, quite a glowing review! ;)

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like there's quite a selection of these things now. It's been a few years since I've been shopping for a TV, and it looks like a lot of the smaller LCDs have QAM tuners.

The only problem is that I just happened to stop by Sound + Visions in Akron yesterday. They have the new 60" Pioneer Elite plasma set.... wow. Wonder if my wife would mind if I dropped $7 grand instead of a couple hundred bucks. :eek: It sure would look nice in our newly finished basement, though. Maybe if I came home with both... :o

FWIW I watched the rest of the game in my bedroom on my 19" LCD HDTV with no sound system on WKYC and I thought the pq there was excellent.

:D

That's, uh, quite a glowing review! ;)

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like there's quite a selection of these things now. It's been a few years since I've been shopping for a TV, and it looks like a lot of the smaller LCDs have QAM tuners.

The only problem is that I just happened to stop by Sound + Visions in Akron yesterday. They have the new 60" Pioneer Elite plasma set.... wow. Wonder if my wife would mind if I dropped $7 grand instead of a couple hundred bucks. :eek: It sure would look nice in our newly finished basement, though. Maybe if I came home with both... :o

I say we put this to a forum vote! I vote to BUY the Elite!

Back on topic: Just be careful of your viewing distance with the larger panels (lcd or plasma). The larger the display the further back you need to sit from it to render a decent picture, especially when viewing non-HD content.

Did anyone else run into issues ordering UFC 79 from TW last evening? I ordered during the preview and it went to a black screen. I tried calling customer service, but it was a 52 minute wait so I hung up. Thankfully, the Pats Giants game was exciting or else I would have had a house of unhappy fight fans. Sounded like a great night of fights though.

With all due respect, I'm not interested in which PBS affiliate is the better or which one is accessible through OTA. For the purpose of the list, I am simply noting that it has been reported that the majority of TW Cleveland customers will receive WVIZ PBS-HD (instead of WNEO) if a customer is to subscribe to TW's HD package.

Your list would be a greater service if you did include WNEO/WEAO. As noted above, for television purposes, Akron is a key part of the Cleveland TV market, and the close distance between the two areas means the stations serve the entire region. (FWIW, I'm in Akron area, and I'm just 20 air miles from the Parma antenna farm.)

I don't have your list handy, but for example, WBNX/55 is licensed to Akron, and is the Cleveland market's CW affiliate - complete with HD these days. Are you gonna drop them because they aren't licensed to Cleveland? :D

This forum/thread serves the entire market, and there are many of us south of the Turnpike. And for example, now that TWC serves pretty much the entire region, their channel lineups don't necessarily follow the county lines. I'm in Summit County, and the old Adelphia system drops down from Cuyahoga County...

Back on topic: Just be careful of your viewing distance with the larger panels (lcd or plasma). The larger the display the further back you need to sit from it to render a decent picture, especially when viewing non-HD content.


I'd be about 10 feet back or so on the couch, but the room itself is about 22' long. I originally started looking at 52" LCD, but the 60" plasma caught my eye (in more ways than one). Anyway, it's all a pipe dream anyway. The budget is shot for quite a while now that the basement itself is done. I'll probably be stuck watching the 2" handheld sitting on that couch at least until next year when the analog signals shut off. :p

Your list would be a greater service if you did include WNEO/WEAO. As noted above, for television purposes, Akron is a key part of the Cleveland TV market, and the close distance between the two areas means the stations serve the entire region. (FWIW, I'm in Akron area, and I'm just 20 air miles from the Parma antenna farm.)

For the sake of argument, I made a note of WNEO and WEAO as a possibility for your PBS-HD affiliate. I think the important thing to note is TW carries PBS-HD. Which affiliate you get depends on where you live. See updated list: HERE. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pI9yd6lJxEOtgyXz6BaZTeg)

My original intention was to create a list that shows HD offerings among the main local cable/satellite providers. As we all know and (I make specific notes in the list), it is especially difficult for the TW's HD Cable list to be perfectly accurate for every single customer as HD programing offered in each pocket in NE Ohio is different. I just figured that we needed to have one constant and that was using Cleveland and near surrounding suburbs as the source. Thus the inclusion of Cinemax- HD and Starz- HD even thought the Akron folks don't get them.

I don't have your list handy, but for example, WBNX/55 is licensed to Akron, and is the Cleveland market's CW affiliate - complete with HD these days. Are you gonna drop them because they aren't licensed to Cleveland? :D

That's a ridiculous statement. Again, I use the channels offered in the area as a base to the list. If local Cleveland subscribers get the channel, it's on the list, regardless of where it's licensed.

This forum/thread serves the entire market, and there are many of us south of the Turnpike. And for example, now that TWC serves pretty much the entire region, their channel lineups don't necessarily follow the county lines. I'm in Summit County, and the old Adelphia system drops down from Cuyahoga County...

That is my intention and I'm doing my best to provide as accurate HD list as possible, but as I stated earlier, I made notes in the list to make Akron folks aware of possible discrepancies in the list.

I'd be about 10 feet back or so on the couch, but the room itself is about 22' long. I originally started looking at 52" LCD, but the 60" plasma caught my eye (in more ways than one). Anyway, it's all a pipe dream anyway. The budget is shot for quite a while now that the basement itself is done. I'll probably be stuck watching the 2" handheld sitting on that couch at least until next year when the analog signals shut off. :p

Oh no, once we start a forum vote process, THAT'S IT! The vote STANDS! :) Just tell your wife "sorry honey, it was out of my control, there was nothing I could do". She'll understand.

I'm no HTR installer nor expert, but I'd be very hesitant to put a 60" panel (which would be AWSOME) less than 15 feet away as a viewing distance. Again, especially if viewing non-HD content. But I guess we'll all see how it looks at 10 feet when we are all over at your place for your Super Bowl party watching your new 60" panel! :D

note: any NO votes are NOT invited!

Oh no, once we start a forum vote process, THAT'S IT! The vote STANDS! :) Just tell your wife "sorry honey, it was out of my control, there was nothing I could do". She'll understand.

I'm no HTR installer nor expert, but I'd be very hesitant to put a 60" panel (which would be AWSOME) less than 15 feet away as a viewing distance. Again, especially if viewing non-HD content. But I guess we'll all see how it looks at 10 feet when we are all over at your place for your Super Bowl party watching your new 60" panel! :D

note: any NO votes are NOT invited!

I say go as big as money allows. With HD there is no such thing as "too close". I sit 10' away from a 92" and it is an awesome experience. :eek:

I say go as big as money allows. With HD there is no such thing as "too close". I sit 10' away from a 92" and it is an awesome experience. :eek:

Of course HD MM doesn't mention the fact that he is legally blind. Or is it going to be legally blind?:p

Of course HD MM doesn't mention the fact that he is legally blind. Or is it going to be legally blind?:p

I know your joking Hook, but my eyes aren't strained at all from this distance. Nor do I ever find myself having to turn my head to see any portion of the screen. The entire screen is well within my field of vision. Think a movie screen at a public theater only on a smaller scale. Same ratio of screen per seating distance. I must say, while not for everyone, this creates quite an immersion feeling on movies!

Now, I wouldn't recommend such a size for SD viewing. All of my HDM viewing is on the 92" proj, while my casual HD and very infrequent SD viewing is on my itty-bitty 42" plasma upstairs...

I know your joking Hook.


I'm not joking. I'm jealous.:D

But I guess we'll all see how it looks at 10 feet when we are all over at your place for your Super Bowl party watching your new 60" panel! :D

Y'all are welcome. I should let you know that it's a $1,000 cover charge, though. :p

I know this is a long ways off topic, but I thought I'd share anyway since it's at least marginally relevant. When we were out yesterday, my wife sat down in front of a 52" and said "I don't think it's big enough." The sales guy and I just grinned at each other.

There are so many lines that can be used in this situation, but I don't want to get myself thrown off the forum!

This Browns/49ers game on Fox looks pretty crappy from the 50 yard camera long shots.

Gawd, I hate 720p.

It will be nice to have most of our games in glorious 1080i on CBS next year.

This Browns/49ers game on Fox looks pretty crappy from the 50 yard camera long shots.

Gawd, I hate 720p.

It will be nice to have most of our games in glorious 1080i on CBS next year.

IF I ever get a real large screen HDTV I'm going to ask a couple of you guys to come with me, because for the life of me I cannot see the difference between 720p and 1080i.

I think CSI Miami is the best looking show on television (1080i) followed by Lost (720p).

IF I ever get a real large screen HDTV I'm going to ask a couple of you guys to come with me, because for the life of me I cannot see the difference between 720p and 1080i.

I think CSI Miami is the best looking show on television (1080i) followed by Lost (720p).

The difference is in your display and or HD tuner. Apples to Apples it's almost indistinguishable to tell the difference between 720p and 1080i.

The difference is in your display and or HD tuner. Apples to Apples it's almost indistinguishable to tell the difference between 720p and 1080i.

See, I've got a 30" CRT HDTV and even though the thing weighs a ton I absolutely love the picture.

Besides, it's not like I have to move it from place to place.;)

Apples to Apples it's almost indistinguishable to tell the difference between 720p and 1080i.

Absolutely 100% not true when you get into larger displays. Heck I can see the difference on my 20" Vizio.

720p and 1080i are not "apples" to "apples" comparisons to begin with.

A 720p picture has about 1 million pixels per image, whereas 1080i has about 2 million pixels. To make an analogy to digital cameras, I'll take the 2 megapixel camera over the 1 megapixel camera every time.

Hook, yes, it's hard to see the difference when you're watching primetime dramas. It's just a different beast from sports where you're trying to discern fine detail on a bunch of small objects (players) from such a far distance (50 yard camera way up in the stands)

Absolutely 100% not true when you get into larger displays. Heck I can see the difference on my 20" Vizio.

720p and 1080i are not "apples" to "apples" comparisons to begin with.

A 720p picture has about 1 million pixels per image, whereas 1080i has about 2 million pixels. To make an analogy to digital cameras, I'll take the 2 megapixel camera over the 1 megapixel camera every time.

Hook, yes, it's hard to see the difference when you're watching primetime dramas. It's just a different beast from sports where you're trying to discern fine detail on a bunch of small objects (players) from such a far distance (50 yard camera way up in the stands)

Like I said it depends on your display and or tuner, but I quess you missed that part. I shouldn't have said A2A, that was the wrong terminology.

Right now, I am projecting a 9 foot screen (Epson HC400, 720p native).
On my Oppo dvd, I can not distinguish between 220p and 1080i. On my HD-A2 HD-DVD, I can not tell the dif between 1080i and 720p. On HD broadcasts through my PHD-205 via Warner QAM, I sometimes can see differences, but that could be the broadcast or TW, or cable line or whatever.

Guys, this issue about 720p vs 1080i has been going on as I'm sure you know for a long time. It reminds me of Blu-Ray vs HD DVD and Beta vs VHS.

How the heck to VHS ever win that one?....Ah but I digrest.:)

I really think that the ones who can tell the difference are true videophiles. And that argument of 720p and 1080i is between them. I just can't distinguish. The NFL on FOX looks just as good to me as the NFL on CBS.

Anyone else getting short audio dropouts during the commercials of the Brown's game on Fox 8.1? Only on the commercials does this happen and once the game comes on everything is fine. Very strange. Watching on D* btw....

OT: That holding call on the Josh Cribbs kickoff return was BS!:mad:

*Edit. I haven't noticed any more audio dropouts the last 5-6 commercial breaks following halftime. Apparently Fox has corrected the issue....

I am watching via QAM on TW and don't notice any dropouts, though I don't have it turned up high because my kids a napping.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, that is the THIRD BS call against Cleveland. One other was the unsportmanlike against Edwards. The third was helmet to helmet against SF QB... barely a grazing and totally unintentional.
REFs have it in for the Browns today for some reason. They are rising above it though.

Another bad call... offensive pass interference on Winslow. Even the commentators said it was tit-4-tat and could be called constantly in every game.

No sound drop offs here.

Guys, this issue about 720p vs 1080i has been going on as I'm sure you know for a long time. It reminds me of Blu-Ray vs HD DVD and Beta vs VHS.

How the heck to VHS ever win that one?....Ah but I digrest.:)

I really think that the ones who can tell the difference are true videophiles. And that argument of 720p and 1080i is between them. I just can't distinguish. The NFL on FOX looks just as good to me as the NFL on CBS.

First the simple answer: VHS won the format war mostly due to one key deciding factor. Sony (Beta) refused to license their product to the porn industry. JVC (VHS) said "no problem, sign here". ;)

Now, the more complicated (and very subjective) 720p vs 1080i answer: You, I and 95% of the consumers out there cannot see any discernible difference between 720p and 1080i at a normal viewing distance.

This is assuming you are comparing very similar or equal:
- source material
- screen size (see note below)
- technology (lcd, plasma)
- quality deinteracing (i to p, p to i)
- quality scaling (upconversion to 720 or 1080)
- quality panel / glass
- quality video processing (noise reduction, gamma, hue, color, etc...)

NOTE: staying around the 42" screen size (some would argue even up to 46", but I think that's pushing the limits a bit far). The larger screens make the 720p/1080i difference much more noticeable, preferring the 1080i.

Even video reviewers with far more keen eyes than you or I would generally agree.

W00t! I went from my 32" Insignia LCD to a 42" Panasonic plasma. The tuner must be a lot better. My analog stations come in cleaner (and yes, they look better due to the better display, but I'm talking signal first), and I've got Channel 19 (CBS) in HD now, which I did not have before.

Nice. Just cannot get channel 3 in HD to save my life.

The difference on my 46 XBR2 is small but the 1080i is sharper. Also CSI Miami is on film and the amount of film grain to me is annoying. I also cannot stand "angle head" and "tweety bird" and if I were in charge I would have fired the personnel obtainer of those people. Actually I consider CSI Miami "digital 16 x 9" as it is not in the high definition ballpark. The sharpness of the football games and live news totally blows away CSI Miami.
JJK

The difference on my 46 XBR2 is small but the 1080i is sharper. Also CSI Miami is on film and the amount of film grain to me is annoying. I also cannot stand "angle head" and "tweety bird" and if I were in charge I would have fired the personnel obtainer of those people. Actually I consider CSI Miami "digital 16 x 9" as it is not in the high definition ballpark. The sharpness of the football games and live news totally blows away CSI Miami.
JJK

That is comparing apples to oranges. When I said that CSI Miami is the best looking show on TV I was referring to prime time dramas, not sporting events.

I've never seen any grain and I know what that is. Your HD set must be so far superior then mine it's able to take a really decent picture and make it look like crap because it's just so detailed!:rolleyes:

I just recieve the non-encrypted channels in HD, through time warner, so wkyc, wviz, etc. I use mediaportal on my PC for this.

Until about 2 weeks ago, I also recieved TNT HD unencrypted, for whatever reason, but it seems to have disappeared. It is not telling me that it is now a scrambled channel, just "no audio/video".

I tried a re-scan, but didn't find it anywhere else.

I'm not saying I SHOULD have this channel, but if it is still out there, but moved to a different frequency, I'd like to re-add it.

Has anyone else noticed this, and does anyone know if it's still unencrypted on a different freq?

Thanks,
Dan

I just recieve the non-encrypted channels in HD, through time warner, so wkyc, wviz, etc. I use mediaportal on my PC for this.

Until about 2 weeks ago, I also recieved TNT HD unencrypted, for whatever reason, but it seems to have disappeared. It is not telling me that it is now a scrambled channel, just "no audio/video".

I tried a re-scan, but didn't find it anywhere else.

I'm not saying I SHOULD have this channel, but if it is still out there, but moved to a different frequency, I'd like to re-add it.

Has anyone else noticed this, and does anyone know if it's still unencrypted on a different freq?

Thanks,
Dan

We'll need more information.
Cable company, and where you leave (what cable office).

If you had TNT unencrypted, it was probably a mistake.

I heard from the Indians road production truck people that STO/WKYC are going all-HD in 2008.

Spring Training will be SD, but the plan is to be all HD for the season.

(sorry if this is old news)

Happy New Year everyone!! :D :D

That's great news-Indians in HD in 2008! Let's hope this year brings more HD!!

Some changes to Time Warner I noticed flipping through the guide:

New Channels:
*NHL Network added to number 155
*"The N" added on channel 143 and 711

Court TV officially changed to "TruTV", still ID in the guide as Court TV.

Court TV officially changed to "TruTV", still ID in the guide as Court TV.

I was watching one of their "Most Dangerous" shows and saw that Trutv logo on the corner but then they were still saying court TV. Of course this was about a month old. Also those changes may be only in your area. In my area anything in the 700's is HD or a subchannel

It would be nice if the local stations control room operators would watch the sports program that they are playing before running the "SD" weather warning. Most of todays shows had convenient pauses in the action.

It would be nice if the local stations control room operators would watch the sports program that they are playing before running the "SD" weather warning. Most of todays shows had convenient pauses in the action.

There really shouldn't be ANY interruption in HD sports today. It's January in NE Ohio and it's snowing! Oh my god! The worlds gonna end! No, wait, snow is NORMAL for this time of year.

The one thing that cranks me is if 5 breaks into HD programming. They have the ability to overlay on HD programming. I see them ruin HD "Wheel" and "Jeopardy" with their crawl advertising Oprah and loto numbers. Plus, they put their own news crawl on over GMA.

This guy would be GREAT on Cleveland weather TV::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=430cwalf5UE

This guy would be GREAT on Cleveland weather TV:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=430cwalf5UE

Are you kidding? I heard Channel 19 let him go after a week as he wasn't animated or controversial enough! :D

Thanks, ABC!! :rolleyes: Instead of doing the logical thing of joining "Just for Laughs" in progress and saving "according to Jim" for another day, ABC decided to show everything in its entirety---completely messing up the schedule. I can't record the only show I care about Boston Legal, because I don't know when it starts.

This makes me think of a great idea: DVRs should be capable of using PSIP information to make "real time" updates to the schedule, especially when sporting events are on. That way start/stop times could be adjusted.

This guy would be GREAT on Cleveland weather TV::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=430cwalf5UE

Thankss nickdawg. Put a smile on my face before I go out and face that foot of snow that's out on my long drive way. And I live at the end of the cul de sac so it will be fun to see what the snow plowers did to me as well.

Oh and to reply to your comment, I was happy to see that my TiVo did not record any shows last night. That means I won't have any of those interruptions. I'm just now getting to the ones we had in early December. FWIW I have gone down without any effort from having over 70 shows on my TiVo at the start of December down to around 30. That means my 750 gb HD has gone from 3/4 full to 1/4 full.

I heard from the Indians road production truck people that STO/WKYC are going all-HD in 2008.

Spring Training will be SD, but the plan is to be all HD for the season.

(sorry if this is old news)

I have not heard this yet. If true, this is definitely great and welcomed news! Yet another huge step for STO! Has this been published yet? Do you have a link to confirm? (Not that I don't believe you, it's just the journalist in me ;))

I can confirm that the following HD channels need to be added to the HD channel list for Uverse:

WGN9 HD (WGN HD)
THC HD (History Channel HD)
LMN HD (Lifetime Movie Network HD)
BTN HD (Big Ten HD)

If there is a better way for updates, please let me know! ;)

Wow! That includes two channels that D* doesn't have! (WGN & Lifetime)

What IS the deal with U-verse anyway??
If everyone else is about the same price, and everyone else offers more HD content, not to mention the limitation of only being able to watch one HD channel at a time...
What exactly is supposed to attract customers to buy into U-verse??????????

Some changes to Time Warner I noticed flipping through the guide:

New Channels:
*NHL Network added to number 155
*"The N" added on channel 143 and 711

Court TV officially changed to "TruTV", still ID in the guide as Court TV.

I want to follow up on this, in my area NHL network is there but only if you pay for NHL package. The N network is also there and is available on channel 152. The guide shows Court TV now is TruTV in my area.

So no additional TW HD channels to report.

What IS the deal with U-verse anyway??
If everyone else is about the same price, and everyone else offers more HD content, not to mention the limitation of only being able to watch one HD channel at a time...
What exactly is supposed to attract customers to buy into U-verse??????????

Well, for starters it's not TWC. :p

I have the U200 package, with internet for $59 (tv) + $20 (3.0/1.0 DSL). HDTV "tech package" is usually $10/mo additional, but I have it free for the first year. I had ATT DSL already, so it actually upgraded me to ride on the fiber sooner, and gave me more upload speeds. For what it offered, it's more affordable for the channels I wanted. I'm not interested in the premium channels, at least not right now.

The HD stream limitation is temporary, and not an issue with me usually, as I have only one HDTV, and rarely need to record an HD stream while watching one. It has come up though. The HD quality is a bit off, coming from clear QAM, but is also slated for improvement with an additional stream near mid-year or sooner.

I prefer Uverse compared to satellite, as I can't stand the look of those damn dishes on the front of the houses in our neighborhood. We live in a classic 100 yr old neighborhood, and they just spoil the charm, IMHO. TWC can just take their constant price increases and other issues and put them up their butts.

Well, for starters it's not TWC. :p

I prefer Uverse compared to satellite, as I can't stand the look of those damn dishes on the front of the houses in our neighborhood. We live in a classic 100 yr old neighborhood, and they just spoil the charm, IMHO. TWC can just take their constant price increases and other issues and put them up their butts.


So you prefer one of those attractive boxes that they place on some poor neighbors house?

I'll assume you are talking about the big VRAD boxes near the roads. ATT has actually been discreet around our area, placing them near common areas, deadzones and other hardware. They are less than attractive, but at least they aren't on every house!

Well, for starters it's not TWC. :p

I have the U200 package, with internet for $59 (tv) + $20 (3.0/1.0 DSL). HDTV "tech package" is usually $10/mo additional, but I have it free for the first year. I had ATT DSL already, so it actually upgraded me to ride on the fiber sooner, and gave me more upload speeds. For what it offered, it's more affordable for the channels I wanted. I'm not interested in the premium channels, at least not right now.

The HD stream limitation is temporary, and not an issue with me usually, as I have only one HDTV, and rarely need to record an HD stream while watching one. It has come up though. The HD quality is a bit off, coming from clear QAM, but is also slated for improvement with an additional stream near mid-year or sooner.

I prefer Uverse compared to satellite, as I can't stand the look of those damn dishes on the front of the houses in our neighborhood. We live in a classic 100 yr old neighborhood, and they just spoil the charm, IMHO. TWC can just take their constant price increases and other issues and put them up their butts.

Thanks for the reply.
I have thought of giving U-verse consideration. I hate having to go through the pricing scemes. No one ever tells you what the REAL COST is until you get your first bill. (fees for boxes, install fees, taxes, taxes on fees, taxes for being alive, etc...)

One thing that does suck, is that by using AT&T as your internet provider, is that you have to keep that landline phone intact. Notice how they never put that in the "cost equation". Tack on another $30 for the landline, and now the monthly bill is MORE than anyone else :eek:.
I have been trying to convince my wife that we should get rid of the landline for the past 2 years. We can just use our cell phones... another outrageous bill that we could get more use out of if we didn't have the landline. I think her biggest thing is everyone who calls our home will be inconvenienced by having to now call a different number now.
Oh ya, and there's those who will think that we must be having money trouble since we disconected our phone service. Ya, just because I don't want to flush $30 down the toilet every month then we must be destitute :rolleyes:.
That would be the deal killer for me I think. Now if they didn't charge for the landline (I don't care about phone service, I just don't want charged for the line), then I may be persuaded to try it.

What about start-up costs?? Do they charge you anything up front??

I can confirm that the following HD channels need to be added to the HD channel list for Uverse:

WGN9 HD (WGN HD)
THC HD (History Channel HD)
LMN HD (Lifetime Movie Network HD)
BTN HD (Big Ten HD)



Thanks. Cleveland HD Channel List, Revision No. 31 is now updated. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pI9yd6lJxEOtgyXz6BaZTeg)

If there is a better way for updates, please let me know! ;)

PM-ing me or making note of any updates on this board is typically sufficient enough for me to update the spreadsheet. I typically stay on top of D* and E* updates as they are more well publicized than local TW, Wow! or U-Verse.

What IS the deal with U-verse anyway??
If everyone else is about the same price, and everyone else offers more HD content, not to mention the limitation of only being able to watch one HD channel at a time...
What exactly is supposed to attract customers to buy into U-verse??????????

Yeah, that and only being able to record 1 HD program at a time makes this not even an option in my book....

Yeah, that and only being able to record 1 HD program at a time makes this not even an option in my book....

They are promising to change that. I just don't like DSL, I had it in Cincinnati and it sucked.

I just recieve the non-encrypted channels in HD, through time warner, so wkyc, wviz, etc. I use mediaportal on my PC for this.

Until about 2 weeks ago, I also recieved TNT HD unencrypted, for whatever reason, but it seems to have disappeared. It is not telling me that it is now a scrambled channel, just "no audio/video".

I tried a re-scan, but didn't find it anywhere else.

I'm not saying I SHOULD have this channel, but if it is still out there, but moved to a different frequency, I'd like to re-add it.

Has anyone else noticed this, and does anyone know if it's still unencrypted on a different freq?

Thanks,
Dan

We'll need more information.
Cable company, and where you leave (what cable office).

If you had TNT unencrypted, it was probably a mistake.


I have time warner, basic broadcast package, in university heights, which I believe used to be adelphia. I think it comes under either cleveland heights, or beachwood.

I was just wondering if anyone else USED to have it, but then it disappeared for them recently. I know it was common for people to have this in the clear, because I've seen it listed in many places among the list of cleveland-area time warner Clear QAM HD channels, alongside the local channels.

Damn....JUST realized that both satellite providers aren't offering my locals in HD. They're offering the locals, but only in SD. I'm guessing I'd have to nab an OTA antenna if I wanted to catch those in HD. Now I'm gonna have to rethink everything again...maybe the extra cash for Cox will be worth it.
You are better off going OTA for your locals anyway. I'm in Parma, the tower lights illuminate my back yard, additionally I get WKBN-DT out of Youngstown 24/7 and all the Akron/Canton digital stations - all OTA with no added compression!

With cable you are forced to get your SD locals (they say their "free" but in reality the price is built-in to the cable rates). With satellite (Dish Network in my case) the locals are optional. Since I got a better analog picture (let alone the digital signals) than the compressed signals the satellite delivers, I chose not to sub to the Cleveland locals (plus Dish cannot legally see the Youngstown stations I get OTA). With every Dish HD receiver, the ability to tune in OTA is built-in (however if you don't sub to the locals while you still can tune to them through the satellite tuner you won't get the guide data).

As far as how much true HD content is being offered that is still limited. No local station is HD 24/7. There are a few specialty channels that are true HD 24/7 (such as Discovery HD Theater) but not even the premiums are true HD 24/7. HD is still in it's infancy. For those of you that are old enough to remember, color TV was not 24/7 until the mid to late 60's (actually no station ran 24 hours in any mode back then).

I just recieve the non-encrypted channels in HD, through time warner, so wkyc, wviz, etc. I use mediaportal on my PC for this.

Until about 2 weeks ago, I also recieved TNT HD unencrypted, for whatever reason, but it seems to have disappeared. It is not telling me that it is now a scrambled channel, just "no audio/video".

I tried a re-scan, but didn't find it anywhere else.

I'm not saying I SHOULD have this channel, but if it is still out there, but moved to a different frequency, I'd like to re-add it.

Has anyone else noticed this, and does anyone know if it's still unencrypted on a different freq?
TNT-HD is still coming through unencrypted on T/W, just as it has all along. It's part of their basic HD package so they don't encrypt it. It's not an error on T/W's part, this is just as it is supposed to be. It comes in on channel 88, subchannel 2. They did move it around some over the summer, but it's been on this assignment for many months now.

TNT-HD is still coming through unencrypted on T/W, just as it has all along. It's part of their basic HD package so they don't encrypt it. It's not an error on T/W's part, this is just as it is supposed to be. It comes in on channel 88, subchannel 2. They did move it around some over the summer, but it's been on this assignment for many months now.

I think he's saying he receives his HD via QAM. So therefore he would not receive any type of "HD package".

I think he's saying he receives his HD via QAM. So therefore he would not receive any type of "HD package".

Jim is saying that it's unencrypted in his area. And from what he is saying it appears he is referring to a qam tuner since TW has no channel 88 sub channel 2. That's qam talk.

The point is as I've said many times all of these areas of TW are operated differently. That is why in the long run we won't get a lot of HD channels and we won't see SDV for some time.

Jim is saying that it's unencrypted in his area. And from what he is saying it appears he is referring to a qam tuner since TW has no channel 88 sub channel 2. That's qam talk.

The "88" refers to the EIA channel number for a specific frequency. In this case, it refers to 606-612mhz. The channel assignment can carry analog or digital modulation. In the case of QAM modulation (commonly used in U.S. cable systems), the "-x" suffix refers to an individual program stream as a portion of a larger MPTS (multiple program transport stream) within that 6mhz slice of spectrum.

It's entirely possible that a frequency can carry a single QAM-modulated program with no "subchannel" assignment (i.e. channel 88) but part of the reason for using a dense modulation format such as QAM is to allow for multiple programs to be squeezed into a single 6mhz channel. The channel identifiers (88.x) are carried in a VCT (virtual channel table) within the MPEG transport stream. In the case of cable, the channel-ID table is called the CVCT (guess what the C stands for ;) ) and for broadcast, it's called the TVCT (Terrestrial VCT).

Well, as I said many times before I don't know diddly about QAM.:o

Thanks for the explanation.

Well, as I said many times before I don't know diddly about QAM.:o

Thanks for the explanation.

Don't feel bad, Hookbill. Nobody knows everything about this stuff! :)

Watching Letterman last night (actually this morning via DVR!), I'm impressed by its great picture and spectacular sound. I watched it occasionally pre-strike, but it seemed even better today.

TNT-HD is still coming through unencrypted on T/W, just as it has all along. It's part of their basic HD package so they don't encrypt it. It's not an error on T/W's part, this is just as it is supposed to be. It comes in on channel 88, subchannel 2. They did move it around some over the summer, but it's been on this assignment for many months now.

Jim is saying that it's unencrypted in his area. And from what he is saying it appears he is referring to a qam tuner since TW has no channel 88 sub channel 2. That's qam talk.

I'm saying that I receive TNTHD via unencrypted QAM on T/W's channel 88 (subchannel 2) on both my Toshiba TV and the MyHD card in my HTPC. And I'm reasonably sure that the T/W lineup that is provided here in Chagrin Falls is the same as the one provided in University Heights. I realize that Akron, Canton, Youngstown markets may be different. Though frankly, if I lived in one of those areas and didn't receive TNTHD in the clear (or Discovery HD for that matter), I'd call and complain.

T/W has some HD channels in their basic lineup (locals, TNT, Discovery, their "Bonus" channel, etc.) that are not supposed to be encrypted (and, indeed, aren't encrypted here). They also have an "HD Tier" of channels that they charge extra for (ESPN, ESPN2, HDNet, HDNet Movies, Mojo, etc.) that ARE encrypted. I can receive those on my cable box, but not on the regular QAM tuners.

I think that Mr. Dan Nippywiffle should be able to receive TNTHD on his set.

Thanks for the reply.

One thing that does suck, is that by using AT&T as your internet provider, is that you have to keep that landline phone intact. Notice how they never put that in the "cost equation". Tack on another $30 for the landline, and now the monthly bill is MORE than anyone else :eek:.
<snip>
That would be the deal killer for me I think. Now if they didn't charge for the landline (I don't care about phone service, I just don't want charged for the line), then I may be persuaded to try it.

What about start-up costs?? Do they charge you anything up front??

Your biggest issue right now is availability. It's just rolling out in Akron-proper, but has been available for most of the suburbs.

The landline concern is valid for standard ATT DSL, but not required for the VDSL that is part of Uverse. In fact, one of the dangling carrots is VOIP later this year. You can maintain the DSL only if you are not happy with the TV portion, you just lose the $5 package discount.

If/when you place an order, make sure you have all the "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed. They lay out all the fees and discounts up front.

I had a door-to-door rep come by before I even was notified from ATT via email running a canvass. I was able to get free installation (which ended up including a new copper run to the pole, and removal of the two ancient lines I had), CAT5 to the attic, the DVR plus up to 3 STBs (only took one for a future slingbox), new wireless gateway (mandatory, but don't have to run wifi), U200 with free HDTV for 12 months, 3.0/1.0 DSL, and the honor of having the installer at my house for 4 hours on a saturday.

Ok, that last one wasn't part of the package, but it did take that long by the time he was complete and we were go.

First month was free for trying. Everything for $79/mo for the next 12 months WITHOUT A CONTRACT. Unless I can swing a deal at the end, I will pay the $10 HD Tech charge.

If you understand the current limitations, and can be patient with the future upgrades like whole home DVR, additional HD and SD streams, PQ increasing, VOIP, etc. you can enjoy the service. If you can't accept the current issues, then stay away for a bit longer to watch it pan out.

[Disclaimer: I am just a satisfied customer, not a ATT shill. I may be easier to please than you may be.]

Watching Letterman last night (actually this morning via DVR!), I'm impressed by its great picture and spectacular sound. I watched it occasionally pre-strike, but it seemed even better today.

The improvement in picture quality was probably due the addition of facial hair.

Ray

I realize that Akron, Canton, Youngstown markets may be different.
It's more than just the city: it's what office you're served from. Customers in southern Summit County are on a different system than those closer to Akron or in Stark County. The franchise was transferred to Time Warner only five or six years ago. The area has one or two community channels specific to this system and a slightly different lineup than the actual Canton or Akron systems.
If you're in an area that used to be served by another cable franchise, things are likely to be different.

It was sad: 10-12 years ago and up until mid-2002, cable internet was available a few miles north or a few miles south of my location.

T/W has some HD channels in their basic lineup (locals, TNT, Discovery, their "Bonus" channel, etc.) that are not supposed to be encrypted

Not supposed to be encrypted according to whom? It's customary for providers to provide the locals unencrypted, but that's it. If TWC is to ever provide unencrypted digital channels besides the locals, they have to use filters that block those digital signals to lifeline and internet-only subscribers.

I think that Mr. Dan Nippywiffle should be able to receive TNTHD on his set.

Barring temporary/accidental unencrypted signals, I can only get a few preview channels and the locals digitally. There was a period when HBO West, Showtime West, and InHD2 were unencrypted here. Interestingly, in situations where the cable box knows you don't subscribe to the channel but the channel is not encrypted, you can use the diagnostic menu to directly tune the stream.

I'm saying that I receive TNTHD via unencrypted QAM on T/W's channel 88 (subchannel 2) on both my Toshiba TV and the MyHD card in my HTPC. And I'm reasonably sure that the T/W lineup that is provided here in Chagrin Falls is the same as the one provided in University Heights. I realize that Akron, Canton, Youngstown markets may be different. Though frankly, if I lived in one of those areas and didn't receive TNTHD in the clear (or Discovery HD for that matter), I'd call and complain

T/W has some HD channels in their basic lineup (locals, TNT, Discovery, their "Bonus" channel, etc.) that are not supposed to be encrypted (and, indeed, aren't encrypted here). They also have an "HD Tier" of channels that they charge extra for (ESPN, ESPN2, HDNet, HDNet Movies, Mojo, etc.) that ARE encrypted. I can receive those on my cable box, but not on the regular QAM tuners.

I think that Mr. Dan Nippywiffle should be able to receive TNTHD on his set.

Those channels ARE supposed to be encrypted. In about a year and a half, I've never had TNT-HD, Discovery HD or anything other than local required channels. I have had HBO and Showtime HD plus INHD "slip through" for a while, but that's it.

It seems that these channels would be encrypted, that way if people want them they have to pay for a HD box and DVR. They entice you with ABC and FOX HD and if you want more, you need to get their equipment.

The only thing I can see that has to be in the clear is the local channels since thye have to carry those and you can get them OTA.

Those channels ARE supposed to be encrypted. In about a year and a half, I've never had TNT-HD, Discovery HD or anything other than local required channels. I have had HBO and Showtime HD plus INHD "slip through" for a while, but that's it.

But the earlier message is still correct for those of us who were on the old Adelphia system out of Cleveland. Adelphia basically only encrypted stuff that was on the extra HD Tier.

TNT-HD, the HD Bonus Channel (STO/FSN HD sports) and Discovery HD are all available, at least in the old Adelphia areas, at no extra charge - as are the HD locals - and are all in the clear on QAM.

It does appear to be, at least in the former Adelphia world, deliberate.

You're on the "legacy" TWC system out of Akron, right? It would appear that TWC still hasn't standardized this.

But the earlier message is still correct for those of us who were on the old Adelphia system out of Cleveland. Adelphia basically only encrypted stuff that was on the extra HD Tier.

TNT-HD, the HD Bonus Channel (STO/FSN HD sports) and Discovery HD are all available, at least in the old Adelphia areas, at no extra charge - as are the HD locals - and are all in the clear on QAM.

It does appear to be, at least in the former Adelphia world, deliberate.

You're on the "legacy" TWC system out of Akron, right? It would appear that TWC still hasn't standardized this.

Exactly, which is what I was trying to say about how difficult it is for us to get a great deal of HD because they are having a real tough time getting us all on the same page.

Not only that, but the people who work at the Macedonia office are probably more willing to listen and help then people at the Concord office. It's like Adelphia had all these little companies with their own ideas on how things should work and TW still hasn't been able to break the mode.

http://www.allyourtv.com/images/l/lateshowwithletterman/episodes/2008/january/01-02-2008/letterman_desk_med.jpg

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Tired of watching TV? Here's the lastest from the FCC... 152 pages. I have to read it for work... you can skim it, but it is interesting.

WWW.FCC.GOV.. select
"Third Periodic Review of the Commission's Rules and Policies Affecting the Conversion to Digital Television"

Tired of watching TV? Here's the lastest from the FCC... 152 pages. I have to read it for work... you can skim it, but it is interesting.

WWW.FCC.GOV.. select
"Third Periodic Review of the Commission's Rules and Policies Affecting the Conversion to Digital Television"

Couldn't you save us the drudgery of reading govt. mumbo-jumbo and just give us your Readers Digest version? :D

Couldn't you just save us the agony of having to read the Readers Digest verion and just give us the Cliff Notes version ;):D?

Oh, and about HD BONUS (798)...

If the stuff posted here is true, and STO does indeed go all HD (home and away) for the 2008 regular season, there will be far more Indians/Cavs scheduling conflicts than last year.

I hope TWC realizes this at some point, and splits the channel!

Couldn't you just save us the agony of having to read the Readers Digest verion and just give us the Cliff Notes version ;):D?

See, that's why it's good to have you around here. I wanted to respond but my response would of shall we say, not have been very tactfull. Not that I haven't done that before but I'm trying to improve.;)

See, that's why it's good to have you around here. I wanted to respond but my response would of shall we say, not have been very tactfull. Not that I haven't done that before but I'm trying to improve.;)

Keeping up on those new years resolutions Hook? :)

Couldn't you save us the agony of reading the Cliffs Notes version and give us a two-minute recap video? ;) :D

This isn't a "Cleveland" question, but I know there are people here who know more than me! Here's my question:

I just got a new AV Receiver (Yamaha HTR-6080). The unit has HDMI and Component inputs, as well as HDMI and Component outputs.

The key is this: my TV does not have an HDMI input.

The question: Is it worth inputting into the receiver via HDMI and outputing via component? My D* DVR, my Blu-Ray, and my HD-DVD units all have HDMI outputs so could be input into the receiver.

Thanks for any input!

This isn't a "Cleveland" question, but I know there are people here who know more than me! Here's my question:

I just got a new AV Receiver (Yamaha HTR-6080). The unit has HDMI and Component inputs, as well as HDMI and Component outputs.

The key is this: my TV does not have an HDMI input.

The question: Is it worth inputting into the receiver via HDMI and outputing via component? My D* DVR, my Blu-Ray, and my HD-DVD units all have HDMI outputs so could be input into the receiver.

Thanks for any input!

I would say no. Because in the end you're still going from the receiver via component. So I don't see how that will improve your picture. I assume (don't you love that word?) that you are going to your receiver currently via optical or regular digital coaxial for your sound.

I notice you didn't mention if you're TV has DVI. You are aware I'm sure that you can go from HDMI to DVI. That would probably work well. But if it's just component to your tv then I wouldn't do it.

FWIW, I think the majority of people have a tough time seeing the difference between HDMI and component. I don't but I still use the HDMI. It's suppose to be better, after all.:)

This isn't a "Cleveland" question, but I know there are people here who know more than me! Here's my question:

I just got a new AV Receiver (Yamaha HTR-6080). The unit has HDMI and Component inputs, as well as HDMI and Component outputs.

The key is this: my TV does not have an HDMI input.

The question: Is it worth inputting into the receiver via HDMI and outputing via component? My D* DVR, my Blu-Ray, and my HD-DVD units all have HDMI outputs so could be input into the receiver.

Thanks for any input!

In most cases AVR's do not support HDMI video input to any analog video output, including component. If it's HDMI video in it must be HDMI video out in almost all cases.

Your manual must have a "video signal flow" diagram that would show any such limitations. Most of these limitations are HDCP related.

Hookbill is correct, your only other option, more than likely, is HDMI to DVI.

Although with the high def players, you'll need to feed HDMI to the receiver so you are not short changed on the high rez audio codecs. I am not familiar with your receiver though and don't know if for sure that it's possible to do HDMI in and then component out. If you can though, that is how you need to do it.
I believe that you can do component out of the DVR, Blu-ray, and HD-DVD player with no problems at 720p/1080i (assuming you can't use 1080p do to the limitations of your tv). Although that is only for high def discs in the players. When playing SD DVDs in the high def players, it will only output 480p due to HDCP.
So then you are back to HDMI. So you probably nedd to just the the first scenario I mentioned. If you start putting come video to the tv, and some to the receiver, then you get into having to switch inputs on your tv AND on the receiver depending on what you are watching/listening to.
SO, it would probaly be best to try and put EVERYTHING into the receiver and just one component out from the receiver to your tv. (although this scenario could still limit SD DVD to 480p). The only real way around that is to have a dvd player, like the Oppo DV-970HD, that will upconvert SD-DVD to 720p/1080i via component.

The whole situation needs more explaning, and we need more info to know how to help you.
Without trying to be to rude, you should be asking this question in the proper forum. This really isn't the place to ask, and back and forth comments trying to help you will take this thread too far off track.
If you start a new thread in the proper forum, you will get lots of help I'm sure.
Good luck to you.

I'm reasonably intelligent, but I find most receiver manuals to be written in the most confusing form of English, but I'll look more carefully to see if it discusses digital vs. analog inputs/outputs.

Hook, yes, I use optical for audio. Unfortunately, my TV is an older HD set and doesn't have any digital inputs, so DVI and HDMI won't work.

Anyway, I don't think it's a big deal, because I'm satisfied with my picture so I'm not looking to upgrade the tv anytime soon.

Thanks!


In most cases AVR's do not support HDMI video input to any analog video output, including component. If it's HDMI video in it must be HDMI video out in almost all cases.

Your manual must have a "video signal flow" diagram that would show any such limitations. Most of these limitations are HDCP related.

Hookbill is correct, your only other option, more than likely, is HDMI to DVI.

Without trying to be to rude, you should be asking this question in the proper forum. This really isn't the place to ask, and back and forth comments trying to help you will take this thread too far off track.
If you start a new thread in the proper forum, you will get lots of help I'm sure.
Good luck to you.


Hey dude, without trying to be rude to you jtscherne is a respected member in this thread as are you. And since when do we not get off track here from time to time.

He even said at the top of his post he knew this was more or less off topic. He's just looking for a couple of answers from his bud's.

And why the heck did you have to take a pretty simple answer and turn it into rocket science.:confused:

Don't make me slap you again.;)

Hey dude, without trying to be rude to you jtscherne is a respected member in this thread as are you. And since when do we not get off track here from time to time.

He even said at the top of his post he knew this was more or less off topic. He's just looking for a couple of answers from his bud's.

And why the heck did you have to take a pretty simple answer and turn it into rocket science.:confused:

Don't make me slap you again.;)

If you slap me again we're through. I'll leave and move back in with my mom and you can see what it feels like to make it on your own.:D;)

Since I started this whole thing, I guess I'll have to get between the two of you:

SLAP!!! Spread out, you mugs! SLAP!!!

I'm reasonably intelligent, but I find most receiver manuals to be written in the most confusing form of English, but I'll look more carefully to see if it discusses digital vs. analog inputs/outputs.

Hook, yes, I use optical for audio. Unfortunately, my TV is an older HD set and doesn't have any digital inputs, so DVI and HDMI won't work.

Anyway, I don't think it's a big deal, because I'm satisfied with my picture so I'm not looking to upgrade the tv anytime soon.

Thanks!

Being a huge Yamaha AVR fan (I'm on my third one) you shouldn't have to dig too far to find your answers in the AVR's manual. It's probably within the first 20 pages and should show a very simple graphic of both audio & video flow. I doubt Yamaha's top of the line RX-Z11 selling for $ 5,500.00 even allows HDMI video to analog video conversion.

On top of HDCP issues and legalities is the tremendous video processing requirements to accomplish this. It's possible, but pricey. ;)

Yamaha's video processing (deinterlacing / upscaling) is mediocre at best. But for a low to mid level AVR it ain't bad.

Put me down for a couple of *smacks* too. :)

This is my first Yamaha and replaces an eight-year old Sony unit that cost twice as much, but wasn't as powerful. Overall, I'm sure I'll be very happy with it. It'll probably lead to eventual TV upgrading, but I think I can hold off for awhile! I watched a Blu-ray episode of Lost last night and was very impressed with the sound.

Being a huge Yamaha AVR fan (I'm on my third one) you shouldn't have to dig too far to find your answers in the AVR's manual. It's probably within the first 20 pages and should show a very simple graphic of both audio & video flow. I doubt Yamaha's top of the line RX-Z11 selling for $ 5,500.00 even allows HDMI video to analog video conversion.

Yamaha's video processing (deinterlacing / upscaling) is mediocre at best. But for a low to mid level AVR it ain't bad.

Hello All:

I have been searching through this forum to find some information out from those of you who have switched from Time Warner Cable to AT&T's U-Verse. I have also been trying to find out what opinions are in regards to using a Tivo HD unit rather than the SA 8300HD that TWC provides. I'm hoping some of you can tell me if I'd be better off switching to U-verse or just purchasing a new Tivo HD unit.

To give you a bit of background to hopefully have you all provide some feedback to guide me..... I used to have DirecTv about 2 years ago, but then I got married and my wife doesn't want a dish on the house. So I switched to Adelphia/TWC and lost my beloved Replay TV 5040 for the 8300HD (so I could record in HD). I've been living with the poor interface on the 8300 now and simply know I can get better by switching. It hasn't been that bad, but lately I've been more and more frustrated with the poor video quality TWC is pushing (or maybe it's just the dvr). I also want as many HD channels as possible so I can enjoy them. So now I live in Mayfield Heights with a cable company that I feel is on the low end of quality. Heck, in the latest Consumers Reports TWC is pretty far down on the list. Now, I'd love to have FIOS but I have no idea when it will be available so I'm contemplating either switching to U-verse or purchasing a Tivo unit. I heard that one of the big problems with U-verse is that I can't watch one HD channel and record another HD channel at the same time. This is something that I do regularly and still want to be able to do. So can you all please let me know your thoughts? Should I jump ship and go to U-verse, or would simply purchasing a better HD DVR fix some of the crappy video that I get (i hate seeing the picture go to hell for 2-3 seconds).

Thanks in advance!

Jerry

Hello All:

I have been searching through this forum to find some information out from those of you who have switched from Time Warner Cable to AT&T's U-Verse. I have also been trying to find out what opinions are in regards to using a Tivo HD unit rather than the SA 8300HD that TWC provides. I'm hoping some of you can tell me if I'd be better off switching to U-verse or just purchasing a new Tivo HD unit.

To give you a bit of background to hopefully have you all provide some feedback to guide me..... I used to have DirecTv about 2 years ago, but then I got married and my wife doesn't want a dish on the house. So I switched to Adelphia/TWC and lost my beloved Replay TV 5040 for the 8300HD (so I could record in HD). I've been living with the poor interface on the 8300 now and simply know I can get better by switching. It hasn't been that bad, but lately I've been more and more frustrated with the poor video quality TWC is pushing (or maybe it's just the dvr). I also want as many HD channels as possible so I can enjoy them. So now I live in Mayfield Heights with a cable company that I feel is on the low end of quality. Heck, in the latest Consumers Reports TWC is pretty far down on the list. Now, I'd love to have FIOS but I have no idea when it will be available so I'm contemplating either switching to U-verse or purchasing a Tivo unit. I heard that one of the big problems with U-verse is that I can't watch one HD channel and record another HD channel at the same time. This is something that I do regularly and still want to be able to do. So can you all please let me know your thoughts? Should I jump ship and go to U-verse, or would simply purchasing a better HD DVR fix some of the crappy video that I get (i hate seeing the picture go to hell for 2-3 seconds).

Thanks in advance!

Jerry

I can answer some of your questions. First you are correct about U-Verse, you can only watch one HD channel at a time. They have promised to change this.

I don't live too far from you, I'm in Bainbridge so we probably have the same headend. I have a TiVo S3 and I had two years with the the SA 8300. Now as far as video quality goes I really can't put too much of a knock on the SA 8300. I think the S3 is better and probably the TiVo HD would be better. But anything you read in CR about TW quality couldn't have anything to do with picture quality (pq). The reason I say that is every TW outlet is different. Some use SDV. Ours doesn't and probably won't for a while. In any case TW delivers a good quality HD picture. Now if you're getting poor quality there could be a couple of reasons.

Let's start with the SA 8300. It's a real pos, if you had replay tv you know that it's interface is horrible. The problem with the SA 8300 seems to be that no two machines seem to be the same. Or at least they seem to behave differently for different customers even in the same area. There are people who swear the SA 8300 is great and never misses a recording. There are those who have used the passport softwear and they seem to think this works much better then SARA. Now they are pushing out the navigator software and I understand that basically it's pretty bad.

TiVo HD has a reputation for a good quality picture. I've never used it but I know that the TiVo S3, which is THX certified, not only delivers a better picture then the SA 8300 in HD it also delivers a better picture of digital channels. And if you are recording a program in analog you can choose what quality you want to record your program. These features are also available on the TiVo HD.

Besides that you can do alot more with the TiVo HD if you have a wireless network. Multiroom viewing is possible with 2 TiVo HD's, or you can use a regular TiVo however you cannot transfer HD programs to those. There is also podcast, the ability to play your music from your computer over the TiVo, TiVoCast, and if your hard drive gets full you can move them over to your computer. eSATA is available as well with TiVo HD but you have to use one that is "supported" by TiVo. With the S3 you can use any eSATA so if you want to use a 1tb eSATA you can. TiVo HD is 50gb max.

There is Amazon Unbox if you want to rent a movie, or buy. It will download directly to your TiVo.

Oh and don't forget you can also use the TiVo HD OTA if you want as well as cable.

I think U-Verse ties you in to AT&T and their land line phones which are expensive and their broadband internet which I think is no where near as good as Road Runner.

So if I were you I'd go with TiVo, and I'd spend the extra hundred bucks on an S3. It's worth it.

hookbill:

Thank you for your response. I had thought about going with the S3 over the TivoHD due to the THX factor. Even though my system isn't a complete THX system I'm always looking for the best audio/video quality for the money.

hookbill, I really dont remember your answer, but how is the tivo doing with SDV? will you be able to get all the HD channels?

edit 8:18 pm, Steelers game is on, and NBC is going out of focus, look kinda crappy to me right now!


edit #2 Hook, never mind I just read up on the usb dongle coming out, interesting stuff, hope they can get it out soon as Time warner seems to be wanting to push this SDV

Picture hasn't been so hot all night, but that's pretty much what I saw all year for football on WKYC.

The sound is pretty good though. I could actually hear some Pittsburgh fans insulting a Jacksonville player from my right rear speaker!

I didnt think the washington game was bad at all, but I wasnt watching it all the time as My 5 month old was getting ready for bed, and we were playing...anyways NBC has always been hit or miss for me, its like they have 3-5 second periods of out of focus, and then other times ,it looks pretty good!

NBC/WKYC does that sometimes. I've seen it on other NBC shows and even on WKYC News. The picture gets blurry between shots soemtimes and on fast-moving video. Still not as bad as WOIO, which gets blurry and macroblocks on some fast-moving video(like the opening credits of CSI New York or Miami).

do we think its a bit rate issue, or something else they are doing? I have seen alot of pixelation.

I can answer some of your questions. First you are correct about U-Verse, you can only watch one HD channel at a time. They have promised to change this.

I don't live too far from you, I'm in Bainbridge so we probably have the same headend. I have a TiVo S3 and I had two years with the the SA 8300. Now as far as video quality goes I really can't put too much of a knock on the SA 8300. I think the S3 is better and probably the TiVo HD would be better. But anything you read in CR about TW quality couldn't have anything to do with picture quality (pq). The reason I say that is every TW outlet is different. Some use SDV. Ours doesn't and probably won't for a while. In any case TW delivers a good quality HD picture. Now if you're getting poor quality there could be a couple of reasons.

Let's start with the SA 8300. It's a real pos, if you had replay tv you know that it's interface is horrible. The problem with the SA 8300 seems to be that no two machines seem to be the same. Or at least they seem to behave differently for different customers even in the same area. There are people who swear the SA 8300 is great and never misses a recording. There are those who have used the passport softwear and they seem to think this works much better then SARA. Now they are pushing out the navigator software and I understand that basically it's pretty bad.

TiVo HD has a reputation for a good quality picture. I've never used it but I know that the TiVo S3, which is THX certified, not only delivers a better picture then the SA 8300 in HD it also delivers a better picture of digital channels. And if you are recording a program in analog you can choose what quality you want to record your program. These features are also available on the TiVo HD.

Besides that you can do alot more with the TiVo HD if you have a wireless network. Multiroom viewing is possible with 2 TiVo HD's, or you can use a regular TiVo however you cannot transfer HD programs to those. There is also podcast, the ability to play your music from your computer over the TiVo, TiVoCast, and if your hard drive gets full you can move them over to your computer. eSATA is available as well with TiVo HD but you have to use one that is "supported" by TiVo. With the S3 you can use any eSATA so if you want to use a 1tb eSATA you can. TiVo HD is 50gb max.

There is Amazon Unbox if you want to rent a movie, or buy. It will download directly to your TiVo.

Oh and don't forget you can also use the TiVo HD OTA if you want as well as cable.

I think U-Verse ties you in to AT&T and their land line phones which are expensive and their broadband internet which I think is no where near as good as Road Runner.

So if I were you I'd go with TiVo, and I'd spend the extra hundred bucks on an S3. It's worth it.



Thanks!!

I raised the exact same issue exactly 100 posts ago (12/29) but must have worded it poorly cuz absolutely no one addressed it or tried to answer it. :o (I don't think I pissed anyone off cuz I haven't been on this thread for awhile) :)...oh well. Thanks again. I now know I'm gonna go get an S3 and gladly hand my SA8300HD (upgraded from 8000HD) back to WOW. I'll be an all-Tivo household. Do I get the cablecard from WOW? Are they gonna ask me to buy one? Rent one?

NBC's Steelers game makes me feel like I'm on drugs, with all the fading in and out of focus. :eek: